Power off doesn't get me out of the service menu. I tried running the mute-1-8-2-power sequence again while it was off to hopefully toggle it back off, but that didn't work. Either did unplugging it for a few minutes. Help! I'm just getting a grey screen.

exit

Originally posted by ericlovestivo
Power off doesn't get me out of the service menu. I tried running the mute-1-8-2-power sequence again while it was off to hopefully toggle it back off, but that didn't work. Either did unplugging it for a few minutes. Help! I'm just getting a grey screen.

I had a similar problem with my HLM617W v214. After powing off to get out of service menu, I couldn't power on without first unplugging the TV. While getting a problem fixed with the noisy color wheel, the tech said it was a digital board problem.

I got the digital board replaced under warranty (now I'm at v319), which solved the problem.

Dean

There's no "exit" option. Just menu choices 1, 2, 3, 7, 8.

The grey screen and service menu (toggled) only appear on Component 2 and 3 (480p, 720p, 1080i). The PS2 on Component 1 is displaying fine (480i, 480p).

Arrrgggghhh!

(T-B3K6101-309, Release time Sep 29 2003)

Originally posted by epstewart
Assuming the fact that Gamma varies with Contrast on the Samsung HNL-series DLP TV is significant, I wondered if Gamma should be coerced into the ?normal? range of 2.2 to 2.5 for the DLP picture to look most ?natural? ? i.e., CRT-like.

The problem here is that the AVIA Gamma Test Pattern assumes a CRT-like response -- it measures not Gamma per se but spot Gamma at one point on the Gamma curve. Only if the curve has been checked at several points for the right general shape can be be construed that the AVIA chart is yielding a valid value. Since the chart works by comparing the level that looks like 50% with what the Gamma would be for that value to be 50%, it requires that the Peak White and Black stripes be just that -- if you manipulate either, i.e. elevate "Black" above cutoff, or allow compression at Peak White, then the resulting "Gamma" is bogus.

Originally posted by k2ue
The problem here is that the AVIA Gamma Test Pattern assumes a CRT-like response -- it measures not Gamma per se but spot Gamma at one point on the Gamma curve. Only if the curve has been checked at several points for the right general shape can be be construed that the AVIA chart is yielding a valid value. Since the chart works by comparing the level that looks like 50% with what the Gamma would be for that value to be 50%, it requires that the Peak White and Black stripes be just that -- if you manipulate either, i.e. elevate "Black" above cutoff, or allow compression at Peak White, then the resulting "Gamma" is bogus.

k2ue,

Good point, deserves reiteration: if reference black and reference white are not set properly, the Avia Gamma Chart is thrown off. My use of this chart in my earlier post to set gamma via the Contrast control is valid only if reference black is first set correctly via the Brightness control and reference white is not being compressed because of too high a setting of the Contrast control. On my TV, the relevant Avia test patterns confirm: no Black Level offset and no White Level compression.

I say again, my picture quality became phenomenal when I used the procedure I described in my earlier post to make the Samsung's gamma as CRT-like as posssible. In fact, I just came home from a movie theater. I was quite impressed with how much like a "real" movie the picture on the Samsung HLN Series TV is with gamma in the 2.3-2.5 range according to the Avia Gamma Chart.

The key thing I have discovered seems to be that gamma on the Samsung HLN as measured by the Avia chart varies with changes to Contrast when the Contrast setting is clearly not causing clipping or compression. This is not the same behavior I get with my Sony CRT, which is also operating below the level of compressed white or blooming. On that set, the Picture control (which is Contrast by any other name) does not change gamma.

I am now confident, based on the success of my procedure at producing natural looking, film-like pictures with good shadow detail, gradual modeling of facial detail, etc., that the gamma readings I am getting on the Samsung are not bogus.

I beleive you wrote in this thread, k2ue, that your calibration also produced 2.5 gamma, so I imagine you know what I mean.

Eric

Eric,

I would love to have phenomenal picture also would it be possible for you to post your sm settings?

Clyde,

Thanks for your help in this thread. I don't have an HDTV signal generator or color analyzer (yet) so I used your posted settings verbatim just to see what they would do. They made a HUGE difference.

Neon grass...gone
Sunburned faces...gone
Video smear on HD programs...gone
Banding on HD programs...significantly reduced
Dither on HD programs...significantly reduced
Clay faces on SD programs...significantly reduced

Overall the color accuracy is much, much better to my eyes. I am using the Dynamic picture setting, and the set has not lost it's "wow" factor. The picture just looks more natural. I bet when I finally get it set up with the instruments that these settings will be very close. I have a HLN617W with 309 firmware.

Chris

Originally posted by shovelhd
Clyde,

Thanks for your help in this thread. I don't have an HDTV signal generator or color analyzer (yet) so I used your posted settings verbatim just to see what they would do. They made a HUGE difference.

Neon grass...gone
Sunburned faces...gone
Video smear on HD programs...gone
Banding on HD programs...significantly reduced
Dither on HD programs...significantly reduced
Clay faces on SD programs...significantly reduced

Overall the color accuracy is much, much better to my eyes. I am using the Dynamic picture setting, and the set has not lost it's "wow" factor. The picture just looks more natural. I bet when I finally get it set up with the instruments that these settings will be very close. I have a HLN617W with 309 firmware.

Chris
I'm happy it helped you enjoy your Sammy. There is no substitute for custom calibration, BUT getting closer than the factory settings are to 6500K is gonna make the waiting easier. When you get a Color Analyzer you are welcome to pose questions on technique and sequence if my write-ups aren't clear enough when you try to do it yourself. BTW, I start with Dynamic, but back Color down to 30 and crank Sharpness up to 30, the latter only being a factor in SD reception. For lurkers, I only use DVI in, with either a TS360 (auto-scaling to 720p) or Bravo D1 as the source, so I am not prepared to comment on adjustments or results for other input sources.

Uh, sorry, I tried to edit my original message and something went horribly wrong.

Originally posted by wallachs
Eric,

I would love to have phenomenal picture also would it be possible for you to post your sm settings?

wallachs,

My service menu is untouched pending ISF calibration, though I did go in and turn DNIe Demo off. Specifically, the “Gamma” in my service menu (which is not an actual gamma value) is the factory setting, 4.

All I did was to turn DNIe on, where applicable, and use Avia to help me set the user-menu settings objectively – Contrast, Brightness, etc. But my procedure had this twist: I used the Avia Gamma Chart to help me set Contrast – see my earlier post (#751 in this thread) for full details. The odd thing about the Samsung HLN series is that gamma changes when Contrast does! So in setting Contrast, my goal was to obtain a CRT-like gamma of 2.2-2.5. I homed in on, specifically, 2.4, since it’s easy to use the chart for that value. And I turned DNIe on because that made it easier to get to gamma=2.4.

I find that CRT-like gamma gives a CRT-like picture, with “natural” luminance dynamics: good shadow detail, smooth gradations, etc. The other desideratum is to avoid turning down video gain (White Level, Picture) too much, which is why I stuck with service-menu “Gamma” (or SMG) 4. I might have gotten even better results with SMG 0, à la k2ue’s calibration (see his posts in this thread). But he had to jigger Sub-Contrast and Sub-Brightness in the service menu to restore the high peak-white level sacrificed when SMG 0 is used.

BTW, I haven’t mentioned it before, but I find it worthwhile to turn Sharpness all the way down after using my method of adjustment. With imperfect material from DirecTV, it avoids an overly “jazzy” appearance due to enhanced edges and compression artifacts.

As I say, the adjustment method I have stumbled across does lead to a phenomenal picture, for reasons that can be justified rationally and objectively.

Eric

Eric-

I appreciate all your efforts here. I am going to wait till my HD Tivo arrives before I do any adjustments. I plan on connecting it via DVI and getting a new Zenith DVB318 DVD which outputs 1080i via component.

So far, my 467W has about 80 hours lamp time and I want to let it settle in.

Originally posted by whsbuss
Eric-

I appreciate all your efforts here. I am going to wait till my HD Tivo arrives before I do any adjustments. I plan on connecting it via DVI and getting a new Zenith DVB318 DVD which outputs 1080i via component.

So far, my 467W has about 80 hours lamp time and I want to let it settle in.

whsbuss,

Thanks. Letting the TV settle in is a must. The gear you anticipate sounds great. Any reason why you wouldn't prefer a DVD player that also does DVI ... and use a DVI switcher such as made by Gefen?

Also, do you or anyone know if there is such a thing as a HD DirecTiVo, now or in the near future?

Eric

Originally posted by epstewart

Also, do you or anyone know if there is such a thing as a HD DirecTiVo, now or in the near future?


Is there such a thing? Is there?

Pre-Order Thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1877484#post1877484)

See also:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151443&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Later,
Jeff

Originally posted by Iceblade
See also:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151443&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Later,
Jeff

Thanks. I gather there is about to arrive such a beast as a DirecTV HR10-250 PVR, made by Hughes and looking much like their current HDVR2. It is high-def, though, and records up to 30 hours of high-def material (or 200 hrs. of standard-def). It has HDMI output with a converter for DVI. I assume the HDMI output uses HDCP copy protection. That means it might be a great adjunct to a Samsung HLN. Price: $999.99. Possible arrival date: roughly 4/19/04. That date is so close that ordering now would hardly seem to qualify as a "pre-order." Neat.

Eric

Eric-

I have considered a DVI switcher, but if the new Zenith(LG) DVB318 really outputs 1080i via component I'd rather have that.

The HD Tivo will really improve my current DTivo connected via s-video. I have lots of green shadows with it. However, OTA HD looks great. That's why I'm waiting for my complete setup before doing any HLN adjustments.

whsbuss, why would you rather have the 1080i via component than 720p via DVI (which is the native resolution of your display)? Or is there some other feature(s) of the Zenith(LG) DVB318 that you value more?

Originally posted by vlapietra
whsbuss, why would you rather have the 1080i via component than 720p via DVI (which is the native resolution of your display)? Or is there some other feature(s) of the Zenith(LG) DVB318 that you value more?

I was about to ask the very same question!

My guess... he might be one of those "1080 is a bigger number than 720 so it MUST be better" people... or he might not know that 720 is the native rez of the Sammies. Just a thought.

Later,
Jeff

Originally posted by vlapietra
whsbuss, why would you rather have the 1080i via component than 720p via DVI (which is the native resolution of your display)? Or is there some other feature(s) of the Zenith(LG) DVB318 that you value more?

And what's wrong with using 720p over component?

In the case of my Sammy 160 going to my Sammy DLP, the component connection looks much better than DVI, especially with SD material. This was true with v214 of the DLP board that I had and with v319 that I have now.

Dean

Dean,

Not sure if you missed it, but he said 1080 via component... not 720. I run the same TS160 as you and agree wholeheartedly... since Samsung f-ed up the black levels on the DVI out of the 160.. I have no choice. I'm running 214 as well. Anxiously holding my breath to snag a good quality DVI equipped universal player... 941 maybe?

Anyway...

See ya,
Jeff

Originally posted by Iceblade
Dean,

Not sure if you missed it, but he said 1080 via component... not 720. I run the same TS160 as you and agree wholeheartedly... since Samsung f-ed up the black levels on the DVI out of the 160.. I have no choice. I'm running 214 as well. Anxiously holding my breath to snag a good quality DVI equipped universal player... 941 maybe?

Anyway...

See ya,
Jeff

Jeff,

vlapietra stated 720p over DVI. I was agreeing with 720p, but wanted to point out that component should not be ruled out (in addition to 1080i).

If your budget for a DVD player is high enough, Arcam is just introducing the Diva DV79, an HDMI DVD player. I have their DV88 Plus, and with a Transparent premium component cable, good DVDs look almost like HD.

Arcam Diva DV79 HDMI DVD Player (http://www.arcam.co.uk/downloads/DiVADV79flier.pdf)

Dean,

Thanks for the tip... unfortunately I am a $1.98 kinda guy when it comes to budget right now. The truck needs new tires, hockey season just started and I need a new stick or two and other miscellaneous expenses are happening.. .including trying to save for this damn DVD player AND an HD-TIVO... so Arcam and other companies of that ilk are out. Besides.. most of the time I don't see or hear the difference between the $8000 stuff and my $800 stuff or whatever... so there's that to factor in too.

Thanks again,
Jeff

Originally posted by dwette
Jeff,

vlapietra stated 720p over DVI. I was agreeing with 720p, but wanted to point out that component should not be ruled out (in addition to 1080i).

The reason I specifically stated 720p via DVI was to eliminate an extra D->A->D conversion. But regardless, I agree with you. IMO 720p over component would definitely be a better option than 1080i over component.

Vinny and Dean...

Cool... thanks for the clarifications. I think we are all in agreement now.

Later,
Jeff

Originally posted by Iceblade
Dean,

Thanks for the tip... unfortunately I am a $1.98 kinda guy when it comes to budget right now. The truck needs new tires, hockey season just started and I need a new stick or two and other miscellaneous expenses are happening.. .including trying to save for this damn DVD player AND an HD-TIVO... so Arcam and other companies of that ilk are out. Besides.. most of the time I don't see or hear the difference between the $8000 stuff and my $800 stuff or whatever... so there's that to factor in too.

Thanks again,
Jeff

I can understand that. I just happen to be in "work overtime so I can buy new toys mode."

I got the Arcam player in Jan. I just bought another pair of Dynaudio Audience speakers, and am waiting for the new Arcam AVR300 7.1 PLIIx/DTSES receiver I've ordered to show up. :D So that's about $5K worth of goodies.

She keeps asking, "aren't we done upgrading yet?..." :rolleyes:

Dean

Originally posted by dwette
And what's wrong with using 720p over component?

In the case of my Sammy 160 going to my Sammy DLP, the component connection looks much better than DVI, especially with SD material. This was true with v214 of the DLP board that I had and with v319 that I have now.

Dean

Most of the arguments for Component resemble the arguments for tube amps and vinyl records -- a combination of mystique and preference for softer edges. And 1080 (especially 1080p) appeals on the "bigger number" basis. I design chips for a living, and specialize in the faster, nastier analog design problems -- if I need to move very high quality video from one place to another -- I want something very much like DVI. The production end went digital long ago -- it's just not true that analog does it better any more. But I will not doubt that the good folk of this forum have made the best decisions their equipment allows -- I'm only suggesting there is no underlying superiority to Component, in fact quite the opposite -- executed with equal attention to quality DVI will be superior technically. But individuals may still prefer softer (or sometimes overshooting) images, and/or their equipment may not provide or handle both with truly equal quality -- thus the preferences for Component we see expressed here.

hehehe... unfortunately there is no such thing as overtime here. Salary is salary. I've seen one of the Arcam DVD players through an InFocus FP here at a co-workers place... it looked nice, but I didn't notice anything amazing about it to justify the price. Glad you are able to snag some new toys... toys are good.. everyone loves toys. :)

Later,
Jeff

Clyde,

I may be speaking out of turn, but I don't think Dean (or anyone else) was advocating component over DVI in general. Rather, our specific STB has "issues" with regards to it's signal output, especially dealing with black levels as it is using the 16-235 scale instead of 0-255 or something... whatever the reason, the picture out of the DVI is MASSIVELY darker than any other output on the STB. That being the case, using the COMPONENT outputs rather than DVI seems to address the black level issue. Also, I think the "softening" that may be attributes to the the D->A conversion for the component may actually be somewhat of a boon to some people with regards to SDTV broadcasts. My guess is that the softening actually helps smear some of the harsh edges you get from nasty macroblocking mpeg2 errors/artifcacts. Again.. that's just my opinion... but I totally agree that, all things being equal, DVI SHOULD be the way to go if your source handles the incoming signal as it should with no artificial enhancement or color, grey scale or black/white level manipulation.

Thanks again,
Jeff


Originally posted by k2ue
Most of the arguments for Component resemble the arguments for tube amps and vinyl records -- a combination of mystique and preference for softer edges. And 1080 (especially 1080p) appeals on the "bigger number" basis. I design chips for a living, and specialize in the faster, nastier analog design problems -- if I need to move very high quality video from one place to another -- I want something very much like DVI. The production end went digital long ago -- it's just not true that analog does it better any more. But I will not doubt that the good folk of this forum have made the best decisions their equipment allows -- I'm only suggesting there is no underlying superiority to Component, in fact quite the opposite -- executed with equal attention to quality DVI will be superior technically. But individuals may still prefer softer (or sometimes overshooting) images, and/or their equipment may not provide or handle both with truly equal quality -- thus the preferences for Component we see expressed here.

Originally posted by Iceblade
Clyde,

I may be speaking out of turn, but I don't think Dean (or anyone else) was advocating component over DVI in general. Rather, our specific STB has "issues" with regards to it's signal output, especially dealing with black levels as it is using the 16-235 scale instead of 0-255 or something... whatever the reason, the picture out of the DVI is MASSIVELY darker than any other output on the STB. That being the case, using the COMPONENT outputs rather than DVI seems to address the black level issue. Also, I think the "softening" that may be attributes to the the D->A conversion for the component may actually be somewhat of a boon to some people with regards to SDTV broadcasts. My guess is that the softening actually helps smear some of the harsh edges you get from nasty macroblocking mpeg2 errors/artifcacts. Again.. that's just my opinion... but I totally agree that, all things being equal, DVI SHOULD be the way to go if your source handles the incoming signal as it should with no artificial enhancement or color, grey scale or black/white level manipulation.

Thanks again,
Jeff

Yeah, that messed-up Black level is a bummer, especially on the HLN where there is only one DVI input, so if you use DVI for DVD you can't make the Black match. Certainly a case of all things NOT being equal. My TS360 and Bravo D1 do coexist nicely on the same input, and I'm hoping the HD Tivo will be equally "standard".

Originally posted by k2ue
But I will not doubt that the good folk of this forum have made the best decisions their equipment allows -- I'm only suggesting there is no underlying superiority to Component, in fact quite the opposite -- executed with equal attention to quality DVI will be superior technically. But individuals may still prefer softer (or sometimes overshooting) images, and/or their equipment may not provide or handle both with truly equal quality -- thus the preferences for Component we see expressed here.

Yes, there's DVI/HDMI (digital) and there's implementation of DVI/HDMI. In the case of my equipment the implementation is inferior, so I use component. Component looks better because it is implemented better.

I think the people who rush out to get Bravo D1s just because they have DVI and for no other reason are assuming too much. Someone even tried to argue with me that any DVD player with DVI had to be better than my Arcam with component, and that there can be no difference in quality of digital audio from player to player. That's just ignorance.

I care nothing about specs, theory, facts until my eyes and ears tell me the implementation bears them out in practice. For that reason I also ignore spec sheets when evaluating equipment. They are meaningless compared to what I see and hear.

Dean

Well I guess I mis-spoke.

I really want to use the DVD (Zenith) via component at 720p, native for mu Sammy. But it all depends on how the HD Tivo looks via HMDI/DVI. I may just connect the HD Tivo via component and the Zenith via DVI.

Just want a quality picture for whatever input I choose.

Originally posted by dwette
I can understand that. I just happen to be in "work overtime so I can buy new toys mode."

I got the Arcam player in Jan. I just bought another pair of Dynaudio Audience speakers, and am waiting for the new Arcam AVR300 7.1 PLIIx/DTSES receiver I've ordered to show up. :D So that's about $5K worth of goodies.

She keeps asking, "aren't we done upgrading yet?..." :rolleyes:

Dean

I would be great to hear a review in the proper forum of course on your new "toys". I am particularly interested in the DV 78 and the AVR 300!:)

is there an easier way to toggle through the PIP channels? i have to go 1 by 1, and its SLOOOOOOOOw.

Originally posted by dwette
Yes, there's DVI/HDMI (digital) and there's implementation of DVI/HDMI. In the case of my equipment the implementation is inferior, so I use component. Component looks better because it is implemented better.

I think the people who rush out to get Bravo D1s just because they have DVI and for no other reason are assuming too much. Someone even tried to argue with me that any DVD player with DVI had to be better than my Arcam with component, and that there can be no difference in quality of digital audio from player to player. That's just ignorance.

I care nothing about specs, theory, facts until my eyes and ears tell me the implementation bears them out in practice. For that reason I also ignore spec sheets when evaluating equipment. They are meaningless compared to what I see and hear.

Dean

Ah, shades of Dynaco vs. McIntosh (only us dinosaurs will remember that rivalry). The Bravo D1 is indeed cheesy in appearance (especially the remote) much like Dynaco was, but it is similarly a bargain and really does throw a hell of a good upscaled 720p DVI image. I have no doubt the Arcam is a fine machine, but I don't watch DVD enough to justify the pricing differential, so like really fine Bordeaux I will have to savor the experience thru the senses of others.

Originally posted by k2ue
Ah, shades of Dynaco vs. McIntosh (only us dinosaurs will remember that rivalry). The Bravo D1 is indeed cheesy in appearance (especially the remote) much like Dynaco was, but it is similarly a bargain and really does throw a hell of a good upscaled 720p DVI image. I have no doubt the Arcam is a fine machine, but I don't watch DVD enough to justify the pricing differential, so like really fine Bordeaux I will have to savor the experience thru the senses of others.

I had a McIntosh system a while back (in the 80s), until I heard NAIM gear which sounded a million times better.

True, the Arcam is pricey, but DVD is the primary reason for my HT. It's also the reason I spent more money on the audio than I did for video. I have HD OTA/Sat, but it's less important.

Dean

Originally posted by dwette
I had a McIntosh system a while back (in the 80s), until I heard NAIM gear which sounded a million times better.

True, the Arcam is pricey, but DVD is the primary reason for my HT. It's also the reason I spent more money on the audio than I did for video. I have HD OTA/Sat, but it's less important.

Dean

My sentiments exactly (on both points).

Originally posted by KRB
My sentiments exactly (on both points).

OK, make me feel old -- I was thinking the 60's, when McIntosh was very hot stuff (aside from the tube burns).

Originally posted by k2ue
OK, make me feel old -- I was thinking the 60's, when McIntosh was very hot stuff (aside from the tube burns).

Well, I had my first McIntosh in the late 70s, but it was solid state. I had a tube Marantz amp in the mid 70s.

Does that make you feel a little better.

Dean

Originally posted by dwette
Well, I had my first McIntosh in the late 70s, but it was solid state. I had a tube Marantz amp in the mid 70s.

Does that make you feel a little better.

Dean

I feel much better (imagining you in 70's clothes). . .

I’d like to update my earlier posts (#751, #762) in this thread concerning gamma.

To recap: I found using the Avia Gamma Chart that several things modify gamma on the Samsung HLN617W. Among them are the Contrast setting, the Brightness setting, whether DNIe is on for non-DVI inputs, and (naturally) the service-menu Gamma setting (SMG).

In turn, gamma noticeably affects what a photographer would call “tone scale”: shadow detail, detail on faces when dimly lit, light-dark gradations, apparent contrast and brightness, etc. (I have been able to develop my intuitive understanding of this by using my iMac’s DVD Player software. The iMac allows setting up display profiles with different gamma values but with everything else “normal” – e.g., “white point” of D65. A single click then changes display profiles and therefore gammas on the fly while watching a DVD. The results are most instructive.)

I used my knowledge to take control of gamma on the Samsung DLP, getting it into the range of 2.2 to 2.5 where it “belongs.” I originally had my SMG set to the factory setting of 4, which meant that measured gamma (MG) on DVI in Dynamic mode with Contrast at 100 was a paltry 1.7. MG was also “too low” on other inputs, with other Picture modes, and with other “typical” Contrast settings.

But SMG 4 gives an awful lot of light output and a contrast ratio that is well over 100:1, depending on how it is measured. The end-to-end gamma of TV and video – the product of the camera’s encoding gamma and the display’s decoding gamma – assumes a display with lower light output and lower contrast ratio than the Samsung DLP. Indeed, most CRT-based rear projectors, which are brighter and more contrasty than most direct-view CRTs, have lower overall luminance and lower contrast than the Samsung DLP. So do most plasma sets.

Changing service-menu Gamma from 4 to 0 on the Samsung apparently lowers the light output and also the contrast ratio by dropping the output luminance of 100-IRE reference white and of all other IRE levels above reference black. Going from SMG 4 to SMG 0 presumably does what using a lower-gain or even a negative-gain screen does for a front video projector – makes it easier on the eyes, when the image is too bright.

I changed SMG from 4 to 0 on the DVI input and, using Avia, re-tweaked Contrast and Brightness to give me approximately gamma = 2.5 on the Avia Gamma Chart while getting the proper black level on the Black Bars + Half Gray pattern. My Brightness was now 75. Contrast, 80. (Before, with SMG 4, I was using Brightness 65, Contrast 70 for gamma = 2.3. I changed target gammas for reasons I can go into if anyone asks.)

The lower-gain picture I got was expectably not as dazzling. It was truly easy on the eyes, even restful, while its tone scale was very, very pleasing, indeed.

In taking control of gamma in these ways, I am also taking control of what I am calling gain. The two go hand in hand on the Samsung HLN series – and they are both essential to getting the picture to be the best that it can be.

Eric

Interesting...you've come to something similar to what I've had now for a long time:

Samsung HLM617W, v319
Gamma 0
DNIE off

DVD (Arcam DV88 Plus) on Comp 1 (Transparent Premium cable)
Contrast 65-70
Brightness 75-80
Sharpness 5
Color 50

Note: Sat is a crap shoot from channel to channel, so settings vary.

Everytime I tried other people's posted settings I found the images to be way too intense and unnatural. My DVD settings in particular give me excellent and consistent results that are very filmlike.

Dean

dwette -

Naim Nait - now that's a flashback of the orange double barrel class 8^)

Originally posted by shovelhd
dwette -

Naim Nait - now that's a flashback of the orange double barrel class 8^)

Actually, it was the NAIM Nait (for $500) that convinced me to sell my McIntosh (amp, preamp, tuner, speakers). I also got rid of my Thorens tunrtable. I replaced it all with

NAIM NAC-32
NAIM HI-CAP
NAIM NAP-110
Linn Sondek LP 12, Rega RB300, Goldring GL
Linn SARA

I still have the Linn stuff.

Now that was a music system!!! I still have never heard a digital recording of any kind on any system that sounded as good as LPs on this system (except for one with upgraded NAIM electronics and Linn speakers).

Sadly (stupidly), I got rid of the NAIM gear. Now it would cost several thousands to have again.

Dean

Originally posted by dwette
Interesting...you've come to something similar to what I've had now for a long time:

Samsung HLM617W, v319
Gamma 0
DNIE off

DVD (Arcam DV88 Plus) on Comp 1 (Transparent Premium cable)
Contrast 65-70
Brightness 75-80
Sharpness 5
Color 50

Note: Sat is a crap shoot from channel to channel, so settings vary.

Everytime I tried other people's posted settings I found the images to be way too intense and unnatural. My DVD settings in particular give me excellent and consistent results that are very filmlike.

Dean

Dean,

I have found that the Contrast and Brightness settings on Comp 1 needed to give equal black level and gamma are similar to but not exactly the same as those on DVI. You and I have the same idea: keep Contrast lower than "most people" keep it, thereby indirectly boosting gamma. And like you I find that Brightness has to be boosted when service-menu Gamma (SMG) is set to 0. Even though that happens to nudge gamma downward, nevertheless going from SMG 4 to SMG 0 more than compensates for it. And the right black level is as crucial as the right gamma or the right gain (as I call the white level setting).

That said, we need to remember that what is too intense and unnatural for one person is just right for another. A lot of this is subjective, however much there is objective stuff underlying it. And a lot depends on things like how bright the room is.

Amen to your statement that satellite is a crap shoot from channel to channel.

Cheers,
Eric

Originally posted by dwette
Actually, it was the NAIM Nait (for $500) that convinced me to sell my McIntosh (amp, preamp, tuner, speakers). I also got rid of my Thorens tunrtable. I replaced it all with

NAIM NAC-32
NAIM HI-CAP
NAIM NAP-110
Linn Sondek LP 12, Rega RB300, Goldring GL
Linn SARA

I still have the Linn stuff.

Now that was a music system!!! I still have never heard a digital recording of any kind on any system that sounded as good as LPs on this system (except for one with upgraded NAIM electronics and Linn speakers).

Sadly (stupidly), I got rid of the NAIM gear. Now it would cost several thousands to have again.

Dean

Sony SCD-1 => Audio Research LS-25 => QuickSilver V4 Monoblocks => Magnepan 3.5/R connected via Kimber Select playing Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon on SACD sounds remarkably analog IMO.

Originally posted by KRB
Sony SCD-1 => Audio Research LS-25 => QuickSilver V4 Monoblocks => Magnepan 3.5/R connected via Kimber Select playing Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon on SACD sounds remarkably analog IMO.

My Arcam DV88 Plus can be upgraded to DVD-Audio (i.e. DV89), but I won't bother until I see a lot more source material I'm interested in.

My personal milestone for even considering it is for Miles Davis' Kind of Blue to be released. I know it's on SACD, but I'm not buying a seperate player.

Dean

I hear ya, I wish there was more. The SCD-1 is my "wishful thinking" toy. Time Out sounds wonderful on SACD, btw.

While I was playing around with gamma, I was toggling among various inputs from the DVD player while watching an episode of Doctor Who. In the first segment of “The Androids of Tara,” at elapsed time 00:12:47, there is a shot through some back-sunlit green leaves. I noticed that in DVI mode these leaves were rendered with a copious amount of detail, so that the veins in the leaves were quite visible. In no other mode were the leaf veins so clear. Not in composite video, not in S-video, not in component/480i, not in component/480p. But in every DVI mode – 1080i, my customary 720p, and 480p – all the veins were satisfyingly visible. The difference was not even a subtle one, but quite noticeable.

Clyde:

Here's that list of scenes from LOTF:FOTR that I mentioned which I like to use to test/play with after tweaking.

Chapter Time Comment

Disc # 1
C3 10:57 Froto's face/eyes w/ greens in background - shadows & tones of his face useful. It is easy to see the effects of gamma changes in this image & how it impacts the overall facial tonality/shadows.

C5 20:29 Facial tones for both Sam and Froto. Also Froto is wearing a bluish purple vest w/ shadow, not black... somewhat difficult to discern.

Disc # 2
C5 07:45 Froto's face on mountain w/ Aragorn's cape behind him. Another bright scene that is difficult to get right given the snow-white environment of the mountain.

C12 57:28 This is another very tough shadow/detail scene with substantial background and detail on the walls -- Galadriel's Mirror sequence. This is where the evening cast to the scene makes discerning the details in the mirror's stand and on the walls very difficult but it is there. This is quite different from the SW:AOTC senator scene I posted earlier which we discussed as there is no bright hot background window...the whole scene is shadowy and dark.

BTW, I have since adjusted the sub_brightness and sub_contrast back to the original levels you posted (242, 116) and am still tinkering around. But I am happier with overall pictures even though the the shirt/robe details in the senator's garment's (ATOC) are not as visible. The reason you stated - the hot bright window behind him - is indeed imparting the shadows to and impairing seeing the foreground detail in his shirt/robe.

Try the scenes I posted above, especially the alter scene, and let us know what you think if you have the DVD. I'm interested to hear what using DVI on you setup does compared to my component feed.

Thanks, Vincent

Clyde (k2u3),

Would you be so kind as to list your service menu changes again, side by side with the original factory values which you modified. I would love to know not only what settings you arrived at (which of course you have already posted and I have made a record of) but how significantly different they were, given the original settings that came with your firmware version. Thanks muchly in advance.

I’ve been playing yet again with my gamma – no snide comments please!

Earlier I reported that changing Contrast on the Samsung HLN DLP affects gamma as measured on the Avia Gamma Chart. As if that weren’t surprise enough, I now find that adjusting Sharpness also affects gamma, but only when using the DVI input or when DNIe is on for other inputs. When DNIe is off for non-DVI inputs, Sharpness has no effect on gamma. But when DNIe is on or when the DVI input is being used, boosting Sharpness increases gamma, and lowering sharpness reduces gamma!

Here, with this in mind, are my latest adjustments to obtain a measured gamma of 2.4:

Video2 (DNIe On):
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 35
Sharpness: 0
Color: 50
Tint: 48/52

S-Video2 (DNIe On):
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 35
Sharpness: 0
Color: 48
Tint: 46/54

Component1/480i (DNIe On):
Contrast: 85
Brightness: 40
Sharpness: 0
Color: 43
Tint: 48/52

Component1/480p (DNIe On):
Contrast: 80
Brightness: 33
Sharpness: 0
Color: 40
Tint: N/A

DVI (DNIe N/A):
Contrast: 70
Brightness: 60
Sharpness: 50
Color: 50
Tint: N/A

Component1/480p has a lower Brightness setting than Component1/480i because when my Samsung DVD-HD931 DVD player is powered up in the former mode, it has a higher “setup” level than when powered on in the latter mode.

Originally posted by epstewart
Clyde (k2u3),

Would you be so kind as to list your service menu changes again, side by side with the original factory values which you modified. I would love to know not only what settings you arrived at (which of course you have already posted and I have made a record of) but how significantly different they were, given the original settings that came with your firmware version. Thanks muchly in advance.

Parameter: Original Changed to
Gamma: 4> 0
Red Gain: 125> 128
Green Gain: 120> 113
Blue Gain: 119> 97
Red Offset: 124> 128
Green Offset: 128> 130
Blue Offset: 131> 134
SubBrightness: 248> 242
SubContrast: 100> 116

Originally posted by dwette
Interesting...you've come to something similar to what I've had now for a long time:

Samsung HLM617W, v319
Gamma 0
DNIE off

DVD (Arcam DV88 Plus) on Comp 1 (Transparent Premium cable)
Contrast 65-70
Brightness 75-80
Sharpness 5
Color 50

Note: Sat is a crap shoot from channel to channel, so settings vary.

Everytime I tried other people's posted settings I found the images to be way too intense and unnatural. My DVD settings in particular give me excellent and consistent results that are very filmlike.

Dean


I used the above parameters with my HLN507 with upgrade digital board to 302 with the Toshiba light engine and found it to be a very natural setting. I will agree with the filmlike results when playing a DVD.

Clyde,

Remind me again what HLN and firmware you have.

My defaults are somewhat different - firmware 309

Originally posted by whsbuss
Clyde,

Remind me again what HLN and firmware you have.

My defaults are somewhat different - firmware 309

I have the HLN467W with 309 firmware.

Originally posted by k2ue
Parameter: Original Changed to
Gamma: 4> 0
Red Gain: 125> 128
Green Gain: 120> 113
Blue Gain: 119> 97
Red Offset: 124> 128
Green Offset: 128> 130
Blue Offset: 131> 134
SubBrightness: 248> 242
SubContrast: 100> 116

Thanks, Clyde. So the most significant changes were to green gain (down), blue gain (way, way down), sub-brightness (down), and sub-contrast (way up). Interesting.

Sub-brightness and sub-contrast are, respectively, S_BR(DDP) and S_CT(DDP), no?

Originally posted by epstewart
Thanks, Clyde. So the most significant changes were to green gain (down), blue gain (way, way down), sub-brightness (down), and sub-contrast (way up). Interesting.

Sub-brightness and sub-contrast are, respectively, S_BR(DDP) and S_CT(DDP), no?

It sort of makes sense: When you kill Green (the Green push) and mucho Blue (the high color temp), you have less total drive -- so the SubContrast needs to go up to restore the total light output (at least to the point where Red is maxed-out).

You have the Subs right.

Originally posted by k2ue
It sort of makes sense: When you kill Green (the Green push) and mucho Blue (the high color temp), you have less total drive -- so the SubContrast needs to go up to restore the total light output (at least to the point where Red is maxed-out).

Clyde,

Red gets maxed out first because the white light of the lamp in the TV has less red in it than it has blue and green? Up to the point where red is maxed out, increasing sub contrast lets the digital micromirror device and the color wheel transmit more red to the screen? Is that it?

Originally posted by epstewart
Clyde,

Red gets maxed out first because the white light of the lamp in the TV has less red in it than it has blue and green? Up to the point where red is maxed out, increasing sub contrast lets the digital micromirror device and the color wheel transmit more red to the screen? Is that it?

The lamp always lights at the same level, and the colorwheel always has the same transmittance for each color, so the only thing that ever varies is the effective reflectance of the micromirrors. When the colors are properly balanced and we advance contrast one of the colors will eventually be telling its mirror to be full on for its entire timeslice, thus we cannot get any brighter without the color balance shifting. With the lamp used in the HLN it's Red that runs out of steam first.

What color settings is recommended? (cool, warm, normal)

Originally posted by k2ue
The lamp always lights at the same level, and the colorwheel always has the same transmittance for each color, so the only thing that ever varies is the effective reflectance of the micromirrors. When the colors are properly balanced and we advance contrast one of the colors will eventually be telling its mirror to be full on for its entire timeslice, thus we cannot get any brighter without the color balance shifting. With the lamp used in the HLN it's Red that runs out of steam first.

Clyde,

Thanks for letting me pick your brain on behalf of the denizens of this thread. This seems to my poor mind quite a subtle point: it is the combination of the lamp and the micromirror's maximum timeslice that makes the red primary run out of steam first.

This is probably a dumb question: wouldn't it have made sense for Samsung to use a different color wheel with "more red," whatever that would entail technically? Maybe a more saturated red, maybe a larger part of the wheel's 360° devoted to red, maybe a higher transmittance for red?

Originally posted by scatter
What color settings is recommended? (cool, warm, normal)

The consensus seems to be that the Samsung HLNs need service-menu calibration for consistent color temperature/grayscale before any of the Color Tone settings is all that great. After calibration, use the Color Tone for which the calibration was done. That is often Normal, but I have heard magazine reviewers say Warm1 is a better basis for calibration.

Meanwhile, use the Color Tone that looks best to you, and don't be afraid to change for different source matarial.

I have recently posted a number of messages extolling the virtue of adjusting the Samsung HLNs to get the "right" gamma. (I have an HLN617W.) I found that gamma as measured by the Gamma Chart on the Avia DVD varied with the setting of Contrast, Brightness, and sometimes even Sharpness -- not to mention the Service Menu Gamma (SMG) setting, which I have played with at the factory setting of 4 and the alternate setting of 0.

Gamma is a number that expresses the brightness (irrespective of color) relationship of the output light level to the input signal level. If display gamma is "just right," the picture has enough, but not too much, depth and shadow detail. Too little gamma can make the picture look flat and two-dimensional. Too much gamma, and the picture looks way too contrasty. Supposedly, the optimal display gamma is 2.2-2.5.

After adjusting DVI Contrast, Brightness, and Sharpness to get gamma 2.4 on the Avia chart, I was initially happy with the picture, but that didn't last. I have gravitated back to Dynamic mode with SMG 4, even though Avia says its gamma is 1.7. It has a whole lot of depth and yet good shadow detail on Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring. As far as I can tell, it cannot possibly be even close to a gamma-1.7 picture!

Maybe I'm not using the Avia chart right (possibly I don't "defocus" my eyes properly). Or, maybe the chart doesn't work with anything but a CRT.

Or ... maybe, just maybe, the Samsung HLNs don't have a single gamma value for all input signal levels as measured in IRE. (I get this idea in part from a review of a DLP front-projector in the current issue of Widescreen Review.) As I understand it, gamma is mathematically the second derivative of the function relating output light or luminance level L to input voltage level V (even when it's a digital value). Normally, the first derivative L' is expected to be a straight line and the second derivative L'' is accordingly a constant value. But if L' is not a straight line, L'' or gamma will not be a constant value at all IRE levels. Gamma may be (say) higher in darker parts of the scene and lower in lighter parts. In that case, it is hard for me to see how the Avia chart could be trusted.

So I am left with the understanding that gamma is ultra-important, but I don't really know how to measure it or shape it on the Samsung. Can anyone help?

Originally posted by epstewart
So I am left with the understanding that gamma is ultra-important, but I don't really know how to measure it or shape it on the Samsung. Can anyone help?

Gamma is not "ultra-important", it is one factor in the subjective perception of color images. I had posted previously to remind that the AVIA chart makes a "spot" (i.e. one level) measurement of luminance from which it imputes Gamma -- does NOT measure actual gamma -- that could only be done my measuring MANY points and fitting to an exponential which would represent the "gamma". The fit could be good, in which case the number would accurately reflect what you would see, or the actual curve could wander back and forth wildly, making a subjective impression much different than the number would suggest. I originally chose Gamma 0 over the others because it was closest to gamma 2.5 over the whole range COMPARED TO THE OTHER AVAILABLE CHOICES. It also happened to show 2.5 on the AVIA chart, but that was NOT why I chose it, it was that it stayed the closer to the desired curvature over the WHOLE luminance range, on average, than any other choice. We have only the available choices, and one is quite acceptable, so why obsess on the AVIA chart? Several here, besides me, have noted that their calibrators have chosen Gamma 0 as the best available choice, so why does one need to rely on the AVIA chart for something that CANNOT be accurately measured with a single point UNLESS you stipulate a CRT _and_ no additional non-linear processing (as may be applied to a digital input like DVI).

Let me add for those who say "well I like Gamma x, I don't care what you measured" -- fair enough, watch what you enjoy -- but then it shouldn't matter whether the AVIA chart "validates" it or not either . . .

I have been following closely the Gamma discussions and I find them very interesting. As noted, I have the 467W for 3 weeks with just over 100 hours bulb life. And I have decided to wait till I get my new HD Tivo and Zenth DVB318 DVD player before I make any SM changes.

What I have been doing during this waiting period is make some slight changes to the contrast/brightness/sharpness settings and have noticed a much better picture than the dynamic setting.

Someone here said the SD signal via DTV is a crap shoot...... I absolutely agree. And being connected via s-video makes it even more pronounced. National Geographic is probably the best quality on all of the channels and I have used it for PQ reference. The most recent 24 on Fox looked horrible.... lots of dark shadows with green tints. Yet the Shield on FX looked better this week than last (before I made the UM adjustments).

I also have the AVIA disk and have used it before on CRT-based sets. I take their tests with a grain of salt..... my eye is always the final judge. Over the years I have found that many default settings are best kept, although some tweaking is always appropriate to meet your expectations.

One observation so far is the sharpness setting makes a profound difference in dark shadow scenes. Moving +/- one or two settings can clear up the green tinge apparent in dark scenes.

Of course, s-video inputs are still analog and can distort the original signal's picture quality. So once connected via DVI, I will determine if any SM tweaks are needed.

Originally posted by whsbuss

One observation so far is the sharpness setting makes a profound difference in dark shadow scenes. Moving +/- one or two settings can clear up the green tinge apparent in dark scenes.



That's something I haven't heard from many people. Most say the sharpness adjustments are virtually worthless. What UM sharpness values have you found to give you the best picture?

Originally posted by Sea Ray
That's something I haven't heard from many people. Most say the sharpness adjustments are virtually worthless. What UM sharpness values have you found to give you the best picture?

I currently have sharpness at 66, contrast at 88, and brightness at 60 - input is s-video1. Overall most SD content looks good with these settings.

Tint is 53.

Originally posted by k2ue
Gamma is not "ultra-important", it is one factor in the subjective perception of color images. I had posted previously to remind that the AVIA chart makes a "spot" (i.e. one level) measurement of luminance from which it imputes Gamma -- does NOT measure actual gamma -- that could only be done my measuring MANY points and fitting to an exponential which would represent the "gamma". The fit could be good, in which case the number would accurately reflect what you would see, or the actual curve could wander back and forth wildly, making a subjective impression much different than the number would suggest. I originally chose Gamma 0 over the others because it was closest to gamma 2.5 over the whole range COMPARED TO THE OTHER AVAILABLE CHOICES. It also happened to show 2.5 on the AVIA chart, but that was NOT why I chose it, it was that it stayed the closer to the desired curvature over the WHOLE luminance range, on average, than any other choice. We have only the available choices, and one is quite acceptable, so why obsess on the AVIA chart? Several here, besides me, have noted that their calibrators have chosen Gamma 0 as the best available choice, so why does one need to rely on the AVIA chart for something that CANNOT be accurately measured with a single point UNLESS you stipulate a CRT _and_ no additional non-linear processing (as may be applied to a digital input like DVI).

Let me add for those who say "well I like Gamma x, I don't care what you measured" -- fair enough, watch what you enjoy -- but then it shouldn't matter whether the AVIA chart "validates" it or not either . . .

Clyde,

After wrestling with the Avia Gamma Chart, I now have to agree with you fully. What you say about "the actual curve could wander back and forth wildly" seems to be the case -- maybe not "wildly," but still not a single value of gamma for all IRE levels on the Samsung HLN. I read a review of a DLP-based front projector in the latest Widescreen Review in which the gamma curve was quite intentionally multi-valued in this way. It was the first I'd heard that that was even possible, much less desirable. Remember, all I know about gamma has been learned in the last two or three weeks as I've focused on it w.r.t my HLN617W. Your posts have been a big help, though it has taken me a while to fully grasp what you said about "spot" gamma.

I gather gamma may be the second derivative of the TV's nonlinear light-output-vs.-signal-input function, call it L = f(S). The signal level S is measured in IRE units (or other units such as millivolts or digital codes that can be matched to IRE units). Gamma is L'' (L double prime), where the first derivative is L' (L prime). On a traditional CRT, L' is linear and L'' is the slope of L', a constant value like 2.5. On these new digital sets, L' is not necessarily linear and L'' not necessarily constant over various values of S.

How exactly did you measure gamma, then? You did it with a color analyzer, no?

I'm having my ISF calibration done tomorrow, Lord willing. Maybe the guy will put me on service-menu gamma 0 and boost my sub contrast to please his instruments, just as your instruments (and eye) were pleased by doing the same.

I still say gamma is super-important to getting the picture the user wants, however subjective his tastes may be. But I agree that the Avia chart isn't able to validate much, if anything, w.r.t. gamma.

Originally posted by whsbuss
One observation so far is the sharpness setting makes a profound difference in dark shadow scenes. Moving +/- one or two settings can clear up the green tinge apparent in dark scenes.

whsbuss,

I, too, am just realizing that the sharpness setting does a lot more than just affect what I would naively have said "sharpness" is.

I have found that at least for DVI and other inputs when DNIe is on, the sharpness setting affects apparent gamma. I say "apparent" in accordance with the discussion I am having with Clyde Washburn to the effect that there is a wide gap between what the Avia gamma chart measures and what I am calling gamma. Perhaps I ought to find another word for picture depth, shadow detail, apparent contrast, and the like. Perhaps "picture dynamics" would serve as a synonym for what might otherwise be called the "gamma curve." Various things, including the sharpness control (!), affect the picture dynamics/gamma curve on the Samsung HLNs.

Picture dynamics or the gamma curve would seem in theory to apply mainly or only to the luminance/monochrome/b&w signal, but we know that in reality that signal is composed of three color primaries, red, green, and blue. At some level there are (maybe?) three separate gamma curves. So when adjusting the sharpness control and thereby affecting the overall monochrome gamma curve/picture dynamics, maybe green could be affected a bit differently than red and blue. That might explain why you are able to use the sharpness control to "clear up the green tinge apparent in dark scenes."

BTW, do you have DNIe off or on (or does it make a difference) when the sharpness setting nicely "de-tinges" your picture?

I've had my HLN467W for about 6 months and haven't done any tweaking yet (got to find some time........).

Can someone post a thread (I didn't find it looking through this one) explaining the basics of tweaking the Samsung HLN sets? For example: How do I get to the adjustment menus? How do I set gamma? Black level? etc.

The set is fine, EXCEPT when I put in "Finding Nemo". Just about any of the shots with Dorrie and (Nemo's dad) have very blocky transitions in any gradient areas (looks something like what happens when you convert a jpeg with a nice, smooth gradient into a gif). Any pointers would be most helpful.

I have both the DVE DVD and the AVIA Analog DVD. Haven't opened either yet. Any pointers, warnings, etc. would also be most helpful.

Thanks,
Owen

Originally posted by epstewart
I gather gamma may be the second derivative of the TV's nonlinear light-output-vs.-signal-input function, call it L = f(S). The signal level S is measured in IRE units (or other units such as millivolts or digital codes that can be matched to IRE units). Gamma is L'' (L double prime), where the first derivative is L' (L prime). On a traditional CRT, L' is linear and L'' is the slope of L', a constant value like 2.5. On these new digital sets, L' is not necessarily linear and L'' not necessarily constant over various values of S.

How exactly did you measure gamma, then? You did it with a color analyzer, no?


Gamma is defined as the light output being equal to the video input to the gamma power, i.e. Y = IRE^gamma.

I decided on Gamma 0 by using 100 IRE as a reference, then plotting 75, 50 and 25 IRE against an ideal gamma curve -- Gamma 0 was closer than any other to the desired shape and levels. Once a curve was chosen the intermediate values may be filled in. The levels were the Y (luminance) values as measured on my Color Analyzer. The desired curve may be seen in the document http://dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu/~bouman/info/gamma.pdf, page 4.

Originally posted by ojm37
I've had my HLN467W for about 6 months and haven't done any tweaking yet (got to find some time........).

Can someone post a thread (I didn't find it looking through this one) explaining the basics of tweaking the Samsung HLN sets? For example: How do I get to the adjustment menus? How do I set gamma? Black level? etc.

The set is fine, EXCEPT when I put in "Finding Nemo". Just about any of the shots with Dorrie and (Nemo's dad) have very blocky transitions in any gradient areas (looks something like what happens when you convert a jpeg with a nice, smooth gradient into a gif). Any pointers would be most helpful.

I have both the DVE DVD and the AVIA Analog DVD. Haven't opened either yet. Any pointers, warnings, etc. would also be most helpful.

Thanks,
Owen

Owen,

I sense that you are a busy man and would like a set of quick-tweak instructions so you don't have to spend a lot of time on it. Alas, there isn't one. I urge you to go ahead and open your DVE and Avia DVDs and get real familiar with what they have to offer -- a whole lot of hands-on experience with them is a big help -- if only because you need to build a mental map of concepts like Black Level and White Level and the nonlinear curve that connects the two. Then, after you've gotten that under your belt, you can begin to think about how and why these DVDs don't actually get your set all the way to an ideal picture. Don't be afraid to expeiment with the user settings and say, "Wow, I don't understand why, but I like such-and-such a setting better than what Avia or DVE tells me is correct." Part of the reason for that is the fact that the user-level controls on the Samsung DLPs sometimes do more than their name implies. For example, Sharpness can affect the overall dynamics of the picture, what sometimes is called the "gamma curve."

I also urge you to take the time to pore over this thread, long as it is. At least look at the last, oh, 10 or 20 pages of posts and (I suggest) pay special attention to those by Clyde Washburn, k2ue. I humbly suggest you also look at the posts I've made concerning gamma if only to see how difficult it is to pin down the "perfect" tweaks and how complex a beast the Samsung HLN really is.

The service menu is accessed by powering up the TV with the sequence MUTE-1-8-2-POWER. It has a lot of submenus. What submenus are active depends in part on what input/scan rate is active -- you can change inputs on the fly just as when you are in user mode. Each submenu has several parameters you can set, and, again, the actual values of these parameters are typically different for different inputs/scan rates(!). One simple example is Gamma, which can be set independently for standard-def input and for 480p and higher inputs. Don't make the mistake of thinking that setting (say) R_Offset for DVI input or component/480i input changes it for S-Video or composite video input.

This is important: you need to write down ALL the factory settings for ALL inputs/scan rates before changing ANYTHING. It's your only defense against making a total mess of things. You also have to be careful when using the service menu to avoid accidentally changing something when all you are trying to do is find out what the current setting is. If you inadvertently hit the left or right cursor button too many times, an unwanted change can happen. There is no Undo.

Gradient transitions that are less than perfect are called "banding" or "contouring." They are to some extent unavoidable with a fixed-pixel digital display -- don't expect tweaking to get rid of them entirely. But I beleive careful tweaking can minimize them.

Also, you may want to consider ISF professional calibration if you have too little time to dive into all this head first. If you go that route, you may wind up with a Finding Nemo picture that satisfies you with no further hassle!

Eric,

Thanks for the reply. I'll work on reading the latest posts to this forum. Thanks for the tips and warnings.

Seems quite a shame to spend $4k on a TV and then have to either pay several hundred more for a tech to calibrate it or spend time/time/time/time learning how to do it yourself. Oh, well. I really like the set (my first HDTV) and the way it displays movies, etc.

I was hoping there might be a shortcut (like the gamma 0 or 5 setting that seems to be the consensus in this thread) to getting a better picture.

Thanks,
Owen

Owen,

I have an HLN467 as well (1 month old). I plugged in Clyde's settings (he has same set / firmware 309) and they worked extremely well. Assuming you have the 309 firmware, If I were you I'd document your defaults and try his settings. It's likely that it will get you "in the ballpark" if not totally there.

Brian

Originally posted by kblee
Owen,

I have an HLN467 as well (1 month old). I plugged in Clyde's settings (he has same set / firmware 309) and they worked extremely well. Assuming you have the 309 firmware, If I were you I'd document your defaults and try his settings. It's likely that it will get you "in the ballpark" if not totally there.

Brian

Will do. I hope to get a few minutes with the TV this weekend.

Owen

Originally posted by ojm37
Eric,

Seems quite a shame to spend $4k on a TV and then have to either pay several hundred more for a tech to calibrate it or spend time/time/time/time learning how to do it yourself. Oh, well. I really like the set (my first HDTV) and the way it displays movies, etc.

I was hoping there might be a shortcut (like the gamma 0 or 5 setting that seems to be the consensus in this thread) to getting a better picture.

Thanks,
Owen

Owen,

Proper calibration is apparently something so time-consuming and idiosyncratic it doesn't make "dollars-and-sense" to do it at the factory. It is indeed a shame.

You might try going to service-menu gamma 0 and seeing if you like it. It's easy to change back, if not. Remember, you have to do it once for standard-def inputs (including component/480i) and once for component/480p and higher (including DVI), if you want both of those categories to participate. You will probably find you need to re-adjust Brightness and possibly Contrast afterward -- and don't be alarmed that when you go back to user mode after powering up in service mode, all your inputs will be switched forthwith to the Dynamic picture mode, i.e., away from Custom. You may also notice a falloff of light output assoicated with the gamma change, which can be offset at least in part by changing sub contrast (along with sub brightness) in ways discussed in this thread by Clyde Washburn.

Good luck!

Proper calibration is apparently something so time-consuming and idiosyncratic it doesn't make "dollars-and-sense" to do it at the factory. It is indeed a shame.
I'm sure it has nothing to do with dollars and sense, or at least very little. It has far more to do with the fact that history has shown that "properly calibrated" sets don't jump out at you in the showroom. Well, maybe they do to you and I because we know what to look for, but for the average uninformed consumer (and don't kid yourself... 90% of these sets are being sold to uninformed consumers rather than enthusiasts), the set that looks the brightest and boldest is the one that sells. Accurate and correct have little to do with the decisions made by the manufacturer.

-Steve

I am new to the forum. I just purchased my Samsung DLP HLN617W1. I purchased from T___Home Audio. Does the W1 really mean anything, Iam told there is no difference than the 617W. Also my picture looks okay. I am hearing the terms gamma setting and other things. What are the steps from some of you experts in getting a great picture. My manufacturer date is Feb 2003. Thanx for you replies.

mcrod

I also am new to this forum. I purchased an HLN507W1 2 weeks ago and am looking for advice for tweaking. There is no ISF certified technician in my city. My set seems to overscan on the left and right sides. Any printed information on the left or right is cut off. I have the set in "wide" mode for all imputs. I am using HDTV cable from Time Warner.
Is there any way to adjust overscan? What else should I tweak?

Thanks.

Randy

Originally posted by mcrod
I am new to the forum. I just purchased my Samsung DLP HLN617W1. I purchased from T___Home Audio. Does the W1 really mean anything, Iam told there is no difference than the 617W. Also my picture looks okay. I am hearing the terms gamma setting and other things. What are the steps from some of you experts in getting a great picture. My manufacturer date is Feb 2003. Thanx for you replies.

mcrod

mcrod,

Sorry, I don't know what the significance of the "W1" is.

If you want your picture to go from "okay" to "great," you need to calibrate various settings in the service menu to produce better color temperature, gray scale, gamma, etc. See my earlier post (#825) on how to get into the service menu and how to avoid courting disaster: be sure you record all the parameter settings for all inputs and scan rates before changing anything. Also take note of your firmware version, e.g., T-B3K6101-306, where the last three digits are what really count. Chances are, if someone has posted service-menu changes for a different firmware version, they won't be exactly right for you. Still, they could get you in the right ball park.

Clyde Washburn's (k2ue's) series of earlier posts tell all about how to calibrate if you have an instrument called a color analyzer. Even if you don't, you should study them to get an idea what is going on with the relevant parameters, which include:

1. GAMMA (influences shadow detail and shading "flatness" or "depth" by establishing for the various input signal levels how much light output there should be, given that the necessary light-output-vs.-signal-input function is a fundamentally nonlinear one)

2a. R_OFFSET, G_OFFSET, B_OFFSET (peg the minimum luminance or light output level for each primary color)
2b. R_GAIN, G_GAIN, B_GAIN (scale up or down the various above-minimum luminance levels for each primary color)

3a. S_BR(DDP) - "sub-brightness" (affects the luminance level at which basic black is represented)
3b. S_CT(DDP) - "sub-contrast" (affects the luminance level at which peak white is represented, by scaling peak-white output and all grays above black up or down)

1, 3a, and 3b are in the monochrome domain, while 2a and 2b are in the color domain -- but also in the monochrome domain since combining red, green, and blue in proper proportions gives all shades of neutral gray. All these parameters thus affect gray scale (i.e., whether the picture has unwanted tinting at various luminance levels) and color temperature (i.e., are neutral grays, even if they're tint-free, "warm" and reddish, just right, or "cool" and bluish?).

You probably don't need to fiddle with the 2a/2b parameters unless you change 1, GAMMA. If you change GAMMA from a 4 to a 0, as many have done, you may get too dim a picture, overall, unless you also adjust "sub-brightness" and "sub-contrast."

Good luck!

Originally posted by epstewart

....in ways discussed in this thread by Clyde Washburn.

Good luck!

Thanks.
I've downloaded his Word Document on the meanings of all the settings, etc. I've adjusted my Gamma to 0 (from factory 4) and the green and blue gain. Now my picture doesn't have the greenish tint that it had on the S-Video inputs.

How do I get to the settings for the different inputs (480i/480p/1080i). I have so far only seen one setting area....

Thanks again. This thread is great! More information than I can process in one sitting....

Owen

Originally posted by mcrod
... Does the W1 really mean anything, Iam told there is no difference than the 617W. ...
mcrod
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=380183

Originally posted by ojm37
[
I've downloaded his Word Document on the meanings of all the settings, etc.

Owen [/B]

Where might I find this document? Thanks in advance.

Randy

Originally posted by jloflin
Where might I find this document? Thanks in advance.

Randy

It's in a Post on this thread. I'll have to find it again....

Cheers,
Owen

Originally posted by ojm37
It's in a Post on this thread. I'll have to find it again....

Cheers,
Owen

OK, it's not in this thread. Here it is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2871736#post2871736

HTH
Owen

Thanks, Owen. I downloaded and scanned the avia document that you pointed me to. It will be really helpful. BUT...

My service menu (ver: T_DLPGVE01_1017) has items like
1. DDP1010
2. GM1601
etc.

What do these and their sub-menus mean? I want to adjust things, especially overscan right now, but I don't want to touch anything until I know what it is. Can you point me at definitions? Thanks, again.

Randy

Originally posted by jloflin
Thanks, Owen. I downloaded and scanned the avia document that you pointed me to. It will be really helpful. BUT...

My service menu (ver: T_DLPGVE01_1017) has items like
1. DDP1010
2. GM1601
etc.

What do these and their sub-menus mean? I want to adjust things, especially overscan right now, but I don't want to touch anything until I know what it is. Can you point me at definitions? Thanks, again.

Randy

I'm not an expert: I've only recently joined this forum and tried a couple of tweaks in the Service Menu (or SM in this forum).

Anyone else out there have the definitions for all the menu items? Also, where do we find the version of our firmware?

Thanks,
Owen

Originally posted by ojm37
I'm not an expert: I've only recently joined this forum and tried a couple of tweaks in the Service Menu (or SM in this forum).

Anyone else out there have the definitions for all the menu items? Also, where do we find the version of our firmware?

Thanks,
Owen

Hi Owen,

The firmware revision is in the service menu, see Erics post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3716267#post3716267 above in this thread.

Originally posted by jloflin
Thanks, Owen. I downloaded and scanned the avia document that you pointed me to. It will be really helpful. BUT...

My service menu (ver: T_DLPGVE01_1017) has items like
1. DDP1010
2. GM1601
etc.

What do these and their sub-menus mean? I want to adjust things, especially overscan right now, but I don't want to touch anything until I know what it is. Can you point me at definitions? Thanks, again.

Randy

Randy et al.,

The firmware version Randy has sounds quite different than the one in my HLN617W, with version T-B3K6101-306.

The top-level service-menu items such as 1. DDP1010 and 2. GM1601 refer to chipsets in the TV. But in my TV, the second one is 2. DNIe, and it is in that item (which affects much more than just the operation of the DNIe function of the TV) that one finds the gain and offset settings for the primary colors and also the sub-brightness and sub-contrast settings, at the second level in the menu hierarchy. Just up-down position the "cursor" in the service menu until the level-one item you want is highlighted, and press the select or enter button on the remote, aka the joystick button. That brings up the list of actual settings under that top-level item. Then up-down position to the second-level item you want to change and use the remote's left and right keys to modify the value. Warning: you really, really need to have written down the original value before you change it, for safety's sake.

You back out to the next higher level by pressing the Menu button.

Depending on which input and scan rate you have active while you are in the service menu, some top-level items are grayed out and unavailable. The actual second-level items that are available for a non-grayed top-level item, and their actual settings as well, can also vary with which input and scan rate you have active. You change inputs in service mode the same way you do in user mode, using the remote's TV/Video button, the up/down buttons, and the enter/joystick button. As for scan rate, if you have a DVD player like mine, it can be switched in its component-video output mode between 480i and 480p, and if I make the switch, the Samsung TV when in service-menu mode will automatically change to the new scan rate, with the appropriate items and settings becoming available.

Thanks, Eric. I just got my HLN507W1 less than 2 weeks ago from HypeAudio. I'm familiar with tuning the consumer settings with VE and AVIA disks, but have never been into a service menu before. As I said before, there is no local ISF certified technician to call for adjustment, and I was just wondering if there was a list of definitions for the service menu on my set. I've read the entire thread, several others, and while some things are helpful, and all are interesting, nothing has quite given me the confidence to start changing things in the service sub-menus.

Should I make a list and post it (as an attachment) of the entire service menu that I have, and go from there as folks can fill in definitions?

Thanks.

Randy

Originally posted by jloflin
Should I make a list and post it (as an attachment) of the entire service menu that I have, and go from there as folks can fill in definitions?

Thanks.

Randy

That would be great. I just got my 507W1 last week so we could figure out the new menu and start trying some adjustments.

I'm generally happy with the picture, but noticed some green in some scenes. Also want to experiment some with the gains and sub brightness to see if I can pull some more details out of the shades.

/Markus

I have read the entire "tweaks" posts, and, have yet to see my problem dealt with that I have with my Sammy. I love the picture, etc. etc. At about 300 hours (I've owned this set for about 6 months) Seth, from AV Consulting, came by on his Southern California swing and gave it a pretty thorough calibration. Looked much more realistic when he left, EXCEPT, it's still really soft. The HDTV signal is sharper but still a bit soft. Question - what is the service procedure to focus the lens. I know that DISH compresses the signal a lot but SDTV is almost unwatchable. Also, I've tried 5 or 6 different DVD players Expensive ones, cheap ones Component, analog, S Video, etc. Better, but still soft. I know that line doubling is inherently a bit soft but I'd sure like to find out if I can use my eyes to decide when a picture is in focus. Any help would be appreciated.

Originally posted by jloflin
Thanks, Eric. I just got my HLN507W1 less than 2 weeks ago from HypeAudio. I'm familiar with tuning the consumer settings with VE and AVIA disks, but have never been into a service menu before. As I said before, there is no local ISF certified technician to call for adjustment, and I was just wondering if there was a list of definitions for the service menu on my set. I've read the entire thread, several others, and while some things are helpful, and all are interesting, nothing has quite given me the confidence to start changing things in the service sub-menus.

Should I make a list and post it (as an attachment) of the entire service menu that I have, and go from there as folks can fill in definitions?

Thanks.

Randy

Randy,

Attached if all goes well is a Macintosh Microsoft Excel worksheet with all the factory service mode settings for my HLN617W.

Originally posted by epstewart
Randy,

Attached if all goes well is a Macintosh Microsoft Excel worksheet with all the factory service mode settings for my HLN617W.

Whoa, the Attach File didn't seem to work. Let me try again.

Thanks, Eric. I'll take a look at it and see where it differs from my SM settings.
BTW, just got a Samsung DVD-HD931 from Amaz_n for $216, no shipping. I'm going to hook it up tonight or tomorrow into the DVI plug. I'll report back on how it looks.

Randy

I got the DVD hooked up and watched Pirates of the Carribean . It was absolutely amazing. No pixels, even 12" from the screen. Colors were beautiful.

I'm stll working on my SM list.

Randy

Originally posted by jloflin
I got the DVD hooked up and watched Pirates of the Carribean . It was absolutely amazing. No pixels, even 12" from the screen. Colors were beautiful.

I'm stll working on my SM list.

Randy

I, like you, have the Samsung DVD-HD931 DVD player hooked up to my HLN617W via DVI. It's marvelous. The video never leaves the digital domain from disc to screen. The TV with its original factory settings seems to handle DVI differently than it does (say) component video. You can get a higher white level (i.e., contrast) setting. Dynamic picture mode looks way different for DVI than for component. And so on. It's like using DVI makes both the DVD player and the TV into a "whole 'nother animal."

HI all,

I will be getting my HLN507W sometime today. When i do, i'll post all relevent info here sometime tonight or tomorrow morning, just to add to the "database" of info here. This is a great site!! alot of good info.

I own a Sencore CP-5000 color analyzer and a Sencore VP-300 Signal Generator, and i will be doing a basic calibration of the set tonight, and i'll post that info here as well. After giving the set some time to break in, i'll give it a more thorough ISF calibration, then create an excel spreadsheet with more relevent numbers.

Keep up the great posts everyone!! Thanks for letting me chime in!!

I have just read every page of this thread and still cannot find a list of settings that new users (like me) should change when we get our DLPs (in my case the HLN5065W) OOTB...can someone please help me with an easy to follow list of tweaks?

I am trying to make my DLP better, but maybe just missed something after 43 pages of posts :(

I am still trying to find out if there are any service adjustments to sharpen up the focus on my HLN 467 W? I've been told there is a manual tweak, but no one seems to know about it. Any help?

Thanks,
arnie@avradionet.com

Originally posted by [ECGN] Tommy Boy
I have just read every page of this thread and still cannot find a list of settings that new users (like me) should change when we get our DLPs (in my case the HLN5065W) OOTB...can someone please help me with an easy to follow list of tweaks?

I am trying to make my DLP better, but maybe just missed something after 43 pages of posts :(

Sorry to disapppoint you, but there is no easy list of tweaks for an OOTB DLP. The tweaks in the Service Menu are not all that easy, simply because you really ought to use instruments to do them. Or, if you lack instruments, you need to be willing to devote much time and energy to careful experimentation based on the lists of settings various experts have posted to this thread.

The only "easy" tweaks are those in the User Menu, and they only get you so far. You really need to let your new baby get a little older such that the lamp and other critical parts stabilize, and then you need to think about calibration -- a laborious process, with or without instruments.

Meanwhile, try using the Avia or Digital Video Essentials test DVD to help you zero in your favorite User Menu adjustments.

Also, for various video inputs, try various combinations of Picture presets (i.e., not Custom), DNIe off/on, and Color Tone (Normal, Warm 1, etc.). They may help educate your eye so you know what you are ultimately after, picture-wise.

Cheers!

Originally posted by arnieminter
I am still trying to find out if there are any service adjustments to sharpen up the focus on my HLN 467 W? I've been told there is a manual tweak, but no one seems to know about it. Any help?

Thanks,
arnie@avradionet.com

Arnie,

If you mean "focus" in its literal sense -- an optical adjustment -- I don't think there are any service menu adjustments for it. The geometry of the light path inside the TV is supposed to be spot-on, for a truly crisp picture with high-def sources. If that's not the case with your set, it needs to be repaired professionally, I'd say.

Front projectors have focus adjustments, and so do all CRTs, because they're analog. Not so, digital rear projectors such as DLPs, at least not in the sense that the focus can be easily touched up without tearing into the set bigtime. At least, not as far as I know. Sorry.

Originally posted by epstewart
Sorry to disapppoint you, but there is no easy list of tweaks for an OOTB DLP. The tweaks in the Service Menu are not all that easy, simply because you really ought to use instruments to do them. Or, if you lack instruments, you need to be willing to devote much time and energy to careful experimentation based on the lists of settings various experts have posted to this thread.

The only "easy" tweaks are those in the User Menu, and they only get you so far. You really need to let your new baby get a little older such that the lamp and other critical parts stabilize, and then you need to think about calibration -- a laborious process, with or without instruments.

Meanwhile, try using the Avia or Digital Video Essentials test DVD to help you zero in your favorite User Menu adjustments.

Also, for various video inputs, try various combinations of Picture presets (i.e., not Custom), DNIe off/on, and Color Tone (Normal, Warm 1, etc.). They may help educate your eye so you know what you are ultimately after, picture-wise.

Cheers!

Thanks for your help. I will use DVE for sure to get things going. How long would you recommend before I wait to have it calibrated? Stabilization takes how long?

Originally posted by [ECGN] Tommy Boy
Thanks for your help. I will use DVE for sure to get things going. How long would you recommend before I wait to have it calibrated? Stabilization takes how long?
Most people recommend 100 hours of regular use before calibration. You can check the number of hours on your bulb in the SM.

Thanks...I will give it a go and see how I make out. It is daunting to say the least after reading all of these threads...

:)

As a lurker on this board since last November, I want to thank the many posters who (1) helped me make the decision to buy my HLN467W (firmware 309) in January and (2) helped me figure out how to operate the damn thing! It's definitely a love/hate relationship. Special kudos to Clyde Washburn, whose service menu tweaks produced a major improvement. I've tweaked the tweaks a little (who hasn't?) but am still pretty close to Clyde's recommendations ... especially gamma, sub-bright and sub-con.

Now my question. I thought I noticed a shift in color last week and when I entered the service menu, I found that a few of the values had shifted ... specifically the sub-con and blue gain. I re-set them again with no trouble, but am I missing a step somewhere? Is there some ENTER function I must activate in order to keep the changes permanent? If anyone else has had this problem or knows what I'm doing wrong, please let me know.

And again thanks to all of you for contributing to this most valuable resource. Can you imagine if we all had to figure this out on our own?

Best wishes,
Bill

Bill,

One thing you need to make certain of is that you "tweak the tweaks" in a particular order, as tweaks made to lower quality input affect the settings on the higher ones IIRC. So basically you should tweak in THIS order:
ANT, Composite/S-Video, Component, VGA, DVI. If you don't have something plugged into a given source, then you should be ok to go to the next type of input.

I think it was Supertoyz and KenLand that figured this out first awhile back.. can't recall for certain. I'm sure they will chime in if I have misspoke.

Good luck,
Jeff

I've started to notice some pincushioning when in wide mode, on the top and bottom pushing down/up toward the picture slightly when viewing material that has black bars at the top and bottom.

I have read threads on this issue that talk about pincushioning on the left at right sides when viewing standard tv, but none in the opposite positions like mine.

Is it safe to say this is just a “feature” of the DLP like standard tv pincushioning is? Or does anyone think this is actually fixable by a service call?

I have an HLN5065, purchased this January.

Thanks in advance!

Calibrating my Sammy HLN437W1 has been an exercise in futility. I purchased the Sammy about a month ago along with the Avia Home Theater DVD. At that time I had a non-progressive Sony DVD player and able to adjust/tweak the UM settings with the Avia disc to a tolerable level. But tolerable on a set that cost over a couple of thousand dollars is not acceptable. So, I perused this thread and read every post. I got a lot of information from everyone here especially from Clyde, Eric, and Jeff.

I thought I could use some of the SM settings posted here, including that from Clyde. I figured that would be a good starting point. But it led to more frustration. I have a W1 with version 1017 firmware. My factory settings were nowhere near those posted by Clyde. So I used the UM settings posted by Eric as a guide while also using the Avia disc to fine tune the UM settings. This did not work that great either. The color is still oversaturated (red is too red), brightness too bright, and sharpness... well, a lot of the text in commercials and box scores watching NBA on TNT are fuzzy.

This morning, I realized the brightness and saturation may be attributed to the Momitsu v880 I purchased to replace the old Sony DVD player. The Momitsu has its own UM settings for Brightness, Contrast, and Saturation, which may be why I am having problems. Whenever I tweak the UM settings for the Sammy using the Avia disc playing on the Momitsu v880, there is the inlay of UM settings from the DVD player along with the UM settings of the Sammy. Then when I switch to the Sammy alone, I no longer have the Momitsu UM setting so the Sammy is not calibrated correctly.

BTW... The Sammy is hooked to a Pioneer BD-V3510 STB from Time Warner via DVI and the Momitsu v880 is also hooked-up via DVI. I am using a Gefen 2x1 DVI Switch to change between the two sources.

This post is just to release some of my frustration since I doubt anyone really can 'help'. But perhaps there may be someone that can provide guidance. Maybe offer a better starting point for me with the version 1017 firmware.

Many thanks for everyone here! I am glad there are resources readily available. I hope I can contribute in the future... I am still a complete n00b.

-luke

Originally posted by snoballz
Calibrating my Sammy HLN437W1 has been an exercise in futility. I purchased the Sammy about a month ago along with the Avia Home Theater DVD. At that time I had a non-progressive Sony DVD player and able to adjust/tweak the UM settings with the Avia disc to a tolerable level. But tolerable on a set that cost over a couple of thousand dollars is not acceptable. So, I perused this thread and read every post. I got a lot of information from everyone here especially from Clyde, Eric, and Jeff.

I thought I could use some of the SM settings posted here, including that from Clyde. I figured that would be a good starting point. But it led to more frustration. I have a W1 with version 1017 firmware. My factory settings were nowhere near those posted by Clyde. So I used the UM settings posted by Eric as a guide while also using the Avia disc to fine tune the UM settings. This did not work that great either. The color is still oversaturated (red is too red), brightness too bright, and sharpness... well, a lot of the text in commercials and box scores watching NBA on TNT are fuzzy.

This morning, I realized the brightness and saturation may be attributed to the Momitsu v880 I purchased to replace the old Sony DVD player. The Momitsu has its own UM settings for Brightness, Contrast, and Saturation, which may be why I am having problems. Whenever I tweak the UM settings for the Sammy using the Avia disc playing on the Momitsu v880, there is the inlay of UM settings from the DVD player along with the UM settings of the Sammy. Then when I switch to the Sammy alone, I no longer have the Momitsu UM setting so the Sammy is not calibrated correctly.

BTW... The Sammy is hooked to a Pioneer BD-V3510 STB from Time Warner via DVI and the Momitsu v880 is also hooked-up via DVI. I am using a Gefen 2x1 DVI Switch to change between the two sources.

This post is just to release some of my frustration since I doubt anyone really can 'help'. But perhaps there may be someone that can provide guidance. Maybe offer a better starting point for me with the version 1017 firmware.

Many thanks for everyone here! I am glad there are resources readily available. I hope I can contribute in the future... I am still a complete n00b.

-luke

You might be able to make some progress is you can:
a) find any sort of light meter that can read the relative intensity of the screen in a smallish area -- maybe a photography light meter.
b) find a Test Pattern on cable.

You can then get black right in the SM, and find peak Red by gaining-off the other colors and up-ing SubContrast until Red (in a 100% white area) just stops increasing.

At that point you can color balance White by eye, or with aids, and then set the DVD to look like the cable Test Pattern.

shoot...I just order the Momitsu DVD player....can you disable the brightness, contrast etc..controls?....that way it won;t interfere with the Sammy calibration?

I wish I had the time to sit down and calibrate my my Sammy HLN437W1 but for now using the eyeball technique, my UM calibrations are Contrast: 95, Brightness: 42, Sharpness: 40, and Color: 33. I changed Gamma back to 4 (firmware version 1017). My settings are ok but I know it can use a bit more adjusting. Maybe a simple black & white televison is not so bad afterall. :p

For the Momitsu, the Brightness and Contrast is set at 7 bars (I beleive thats the factory setting) and Saturation at 4 bars. There is a thread in DVD Forum about custom settings... I'll get to that once I get my Sammy calibrated correctly.

Originally posted by Iceblade
Bill,

One thing you need to make certain of is that you "tweak the tweaks" in a particular order, as tweaks made to lower quality input affect the settings on the higher ones IIRC. So basically you should tweak in THIS order:
ANT, Composite/S-Video, Component, VGA, DVI. If you don't have something plugged into a given source, then you should be ok to go to the next type of input.

I think it was Supertoyz and KenLand that figured this out first awhile back.. can't recall for certain. I'm sure they will chime in if I have misspoke.

Good luck,
Jeff

Correct, kind of..........it's been several months since I've been in the SM so I don't remember all of the individual settings but yes, you do want to start with the longest signal path first (antenna) and finish with the shortest (DVI) However many of the inputs settings are grouped (Antenna, composite, S-Video) What this means is that they share settings so if you change a setting on one you change the others as well. So if you tweak your antenna input, then your composite, then your S-Video all your left with is the S-Video settings across all three inputs so don't waste your time just tweak the input that's most important to you. I think S-Video has one or two settings independent of the others but I don't recall which. Some of the inputs further up the chain also share inputs though not as many...an important one is gamma. It's believe it's shared between DVI and PC and then all of the others are grouped together.

Originally posted by Iceblade
Bill,

One thing you need to make certain of is that you "tweak the tweaks" in a particular order, as tweaks made to lower quality input affect the settings on the higher ones IIRC. So basically you should tweak in THIS order:
ANT, Composite/S-Video, Component, VGA, DVI. If you don't have something plugged into a given source, then you should be ok to go to the next type of input.

I think it was Supertoyz and KenLand that figured this out first awhile back.. can't recall for certain. I'm sure they will chime in if I have misspoke.

Good luck,
Jeff

Correct, kind of..........it's been several months since I've been in the SM so I don't remember all of the individual settings but yes, you do want to start with the longest signal path first (antenna) and finish with the shortest (DVI) However many of the inputs settings are grouped (Antenna, composite, S-Video) What this means is that they share settings so if you change a setting on one you change the others as well. So if you tweak your antenna input, then your composite, then your S-Video all your left with is the S-Video settings across all three inputs so don't waste your time just tweak the input that's most important to you. I think S-Video has one or two settings independent of the others but I don't recall which. Some of the inputs further up the chain also share inputs though not as many...an important one is gamma. It's believe it's shared between DVI and PC and then all of the others are grouped together.

Thanks for the clarification, Supertoyz. It appears that I made a punctuation mistake in my post. The COMMA between the ANT and the composite video should have been a slash like the composite/svideo was. Thanks again.

Regs,
Jeff

Is this the place to post a problem I have been having with the DVI input on my HLN567w? I have the TV inputs set up as follows:

PC- connected to an A/B switch- A is a Zenieth OTA receiver and B is a laptop
DVI- connected to a motorola 5100 on comcast cable
s-video2- VCR
antenna- directly to comcast cable (best picture for channels under 78)
component 2- same 5100
component 3- HD931 DVD

problem is that I lose signal feed on the DVI input when I return to it after switching to any other input except antenna. pulling and resetting the dvi cable on either the back of the TV or 5100 restores the signal. switching antenna/dvi no- problem. powering on/off tv and cable box while on dvi mode - no problem.

Anyone heard of this issues before?

should I post this in another thread?

thanks

lfb I just tried your same setup a few days ago. I had my HLN617 hooked up to my 931 via DVI and decided to try my motorola 6208 thru dvi instead and see what the 931 looked like thru component. Well the 617 would loose the dvi signal everytime i switched to the component input. The only way i could get tv to pull in the moto 6208 signal would be to unplug the dvi cable and plug it back. It was annoying so i just put the dvi back on the 931 and left it alone. I was gonna call Samsung. Another problem im having is that on antenna some of the analog channels are unwatchable because they look like what you see when you look at a film negative. Has anyone seen this before? Oh and one more thing dvi is supposed to support 480i but when i had it hooked up at 480i for analog channels and would switch it to 480p to compare when i tried to switch back to 480i all i got were lines thru the picture. The only way to fix it was to unplug the dvi and plug it back in. Whats with all these problems? Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks.

I sent an email to samsung today so i expect a reply by tuesday. I haven't seen any problems with any of the channels through the antenna feed. The comcast box outputs those analog channels so poorly that going direct coax to TV was the only way to get acceptable PQ.

I had my 931 connected through DVI and when they upgraded my motorola I shifted the DVI to it.

Hmmm...
I have Time Warner (Pioneer box). It is an established fact that you can not have both DVI and component hooked up at the same time. So, similar to lfb, I have the straight cable going into ant and the pioneer going into dvi. For an analog channel, the PQ on the antenna is by far superior than on DVI. I assume this is because of the far... chip which is bypassed via dvi.
Have not seen the negative / inverse video problem. Could it be that you are trying to view a digital channel?

--SD Diver

going on your advice that it might be a component and dvi issue, I pulled the component cables from both the samsung and the cable box but the problem still existed. I decided though to check all the feeds and found that the problem only seems to be related to the PC, component and DVI inputs. I can switch to antenna or s-video and then back to dvi without problem.

lfb,
I'm hooked up as follows:
pc -> pc (audio to receiver)
cable box -> dvi (audio to pc audio, also to receiver - mult audio out on the pioneer cable box)
cable -> ant A (cable from wall split 3 ways - to vcr, cable box, and tv)
dvd -> comp 2 (480 p) - Keep in mind I have a 567W, so comp 2 does not do 480I
vcr -> video 1.
No problems. The only issue I occasionally have is that the pioneer box will crash my DVI if I try to put up the on-screen guide while watching an HD channel. The only way to recover is to reboot the pioneer box or unplug the DVI port. I have a sammy 941 DVD on order, so when it arrives, I'll either get a DVI switch or put the cable box on comp 3.

I have an HLN437W. I have:

Hughes HTL-HD box connected via DVI
HTPC connected via VGA
RCA D* box connected via S-Video

The Hughes box and the RCA box also both output to twin PVR-250 tuner cards in my HTPC via RG-6 for recording.

I switch back and forth between these inputs (using the discrete IR codes) with no problem.

Originally posted by SD Diver
Hmmm...
I have Time Warner (Pioneer box). It is an established fact that you can not have both DVI and component hooked up at the same time. So, similar to lfb, I have the straight cable going into ant and the pioneer going into dvi. For an analog channel, the PQ on the antenna is by far superior than on DVI. I assume this is because of the far... chip which is bypassed via dvi.
Have not seen the negative / inverse video problem. Could it be that you are trying to view a digital channel?

--SD Diver

Why would it matter whether its analog or digital since its from coax coming straight out of the wall into the antenna input. The same channel looks fine using component out of the moto 6208 box but from the antenna certain channels are negative/inverse.

lfb id be interested in what Samsung has to say.

does the 931 look as good on component and it does thru dvi?

Hello all.
I just got my HLN4365 2 weeks ago today. It's dated April 2003 and has a 208 board. Guess it's been in a wharehouse a long time. Did get a good deal from Sears Sunday 6-9 extra 10% off sale (after a 110% difference pricematch). Also got 10% off the MasterProtection Plan.

Is it best to set STB to pass with this set? I'm using the DVI connection.
Been messing with the gama and 5 seems to be best so far. I already have 300 hours on bulb.

Goina try out the DVI on my PC maybe later tonite. Using the vga now.

Should I complain about the set being so old?

TIA

The color wheel on my HLN-567 seems to be getting louder over time. At times it gets truly annoying and can even be heard when listening from the next room. I was wondering if others have had this problem and if a service call is in order. It's so loud at times that I want to shut the TV off and just listen to the stereo.

Y

Originally posted by 1Mark1
Hello all.
I just got my HLN4365 2 weeks ago today. It's dated April 2003 and has a 208 board. Guess it's been in a wharehouse a long time. Did get a good deal from Sears Sunday 6-9 extra 10% off sale (after a 110% difference pricematch). Also got 10% off the MasterProtection Plan.

Is it best to set STB to pass with this set? I'm using the DVI connection.
Been messing with the gama and 5 seems to be best so far. I already have 300 hours on bulb.

Goina try out the DVI on my PC maybe later tonite. Using the vga now.

Should I complain about the set being so old?

TIA

I think some would agree that you would have been better off insisting on a W1 model.

yuriwho, If you are still within your return period, get a new one. If you are still under warranty make a service call and get it fixed. There is no reason the color wheel should be loud enough to hear a room away.

Samsung replied to my internet trouble report :

"Dear Customer
We would like to have our Authorized service center diagnose the problem.
For better assistance please call our Customer Care Center at 1-800-SAMSUNG (1-800-726-7864) between 9:00 am to 9:00 pm EST Monday to Friday and one of our representatives will help you. Please have the model and serial number available upon request."

I spoke to a couple of samsung tech support and no one had heard of the problem. The 2nd level tech had me pull the power cord on/off to the motorola which made it go into DL mode, thank you very much! I called comcast and they explained it would take about 20 min to download. While I was on the line with their tech support guy I mentioned the problem I was having and he said he thought he knew what was happening. According to him they upgraded the firmware very recently and turned on a feature having to do with HDCP on the DVI port. What is happening now, according to him, is that when I switch off of dvi and back, neither side is initiating the handshake. He suggested that I turn the cable box off before switching back to DVI but that did not work.

So far the only way I have found to get it back is by disconnecting the cable on either end.

I plan on calling samsung back.

any ideas?

it seems this dvi issue is being talked about in the motorola dct threads so I am going over there to research. I may find out why i only have the problem when switching back and forth from dvi/pc or component but not antenna and s-video.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=194404&perpage=20&pagenumber=151

the samsung appears to not be the problem. it seems ver 7.10 firmware in the dct 5100 and 6200 has the problem.

ok thanks lfb i am happy to at least know that its not the very expensive tv set.

Originally posted by yuriwho
The color wheel on my HLN-567 seems to be getting louder over time. At times it gets truly annoying and can even be heard when listening from the next room. I was wondering if others have had this problem and if a service call is in order. It's so loud at times that I want to shut the TV off and just listen to the stereo.

Y

Mine started making this noise 2 weeks out of the box. Turned the set on, and it sounded like a hard drive spinning up. At first I thought it might be a fan, but the noise would go away within something like 20 sec of shutting the tv off. Spoke with the service dept of tweeter - they told me it was the color wheel, since the fan stays on for a full 60 sec after shutdown. They swapped it out with a new a day later. No problem with this one's color wheel. :)
What I have started noticing is loud "settling" type creaks coming from set on occasion. Anyone else hear this?

--SD Diver

Originally posted by SD Diver
What I have started noticing is loud "settling" type creaks coming from set on occasion. Anyone else hear this? --SD Diver

Yeah, I get the settling cracks and pops too. I've had mine for just over a year now, and it still does it!

I go through my Yamaha receiver for everything and have never heard any cracking or popping sounds.

Originally posted by SD Diver
What I have started noticing is loud "settling" type creaks coming from set on occasion. Anyone else hear this?

--SD Diver

After 40 some pages I've never read this one before but you know what? I do have what you describe as settling type creaks. No problems, but I do sleep better knowing that I have the extended warranty. I don't know what's up with those.

Yep... the creaks, pops and sounds of the Earth ending are all fairly common on these sets. I get similar behavior from my 36" Sony CRT HDTV as well. It's nothing to worry about... but it is unsettling when it happens at midnight as you are watching the original "Alien" with the lights off. Glad I got my couch Scotchguarded. :)

Later,
Jeff

Originally posted by Sea Ray
After 40 some pages I've never read this one before but you know what? I do have what you describe as settling type creaks. No problems, but I do sleep better knowing that I have the extended warranty. I don't know what's up with those.

I have it as well. It's got to be from all the heat that thing puts out. Get behind it for any length of time and you can feel it streaming out of there. The materials heating up and cooling down rapidly all the time is bound to make a little noise from time to time. It does not worry me. I had a large CRT that did the same thing.

I see quite a bit of discussion of ISF calibration hereabouts, I wonder if anyone on this forum actually ponied up for this service- and did it make a difference re: grayscale fidelity, black level and "crush" on the HLN (HD2 series DLP) sets?

Originally posted by BillMilosz
I see quite a bit of discussion of ISF calibration hereabouts, I wonder if anyone on this forum actually ponied up for this service- and did it make a difference re: grayscale fidelity, black level and "crush" on the HLN (HD2 series DLP) sets?

If you review my posts in this thread you'll get an overview of the way the adjustments in the HLN affect gray scale and color temperature.

-- "If you review my posts in this thread you'll get an overview of the way the adjustments in the HLN affect gray scale and color temperature.---
<HR>

Did you actually get an ISF calibration? -Someone came out and did the deed, charged the fee?

Yes. A number of people on this board have had their sets ISF calibrated and I have yet to read about someone not being satisfied with the result.

--Yes. A number of people on this board have had their sets ISF calibrated and I have yet to read about someone not being satisfied with the result.--
________________________________________________________

OK, thanks. I spent about 40 minutes today reading through these posts and hadn't come accross anyone who came right out and said he'd had an ISF job done. There are 45 pages of posts....

Bill,

The guys who had their sets ISF'd are not necessarily posting in this thread. For the most part, I believe I have read about the ISF'd sets in separate threads that specifically said "ISF" and "Samsung".. but it's been awhile. I will be joining the list of ISF'd set owners just as soon as I can get my greedy little paws on a DVI/HDMI DVDP worth a squirt of wizz... and maybe an HDTIVO. :)

Later,
Jeff, HLN617W owner since April '03.

Bill check out any of the following posts and their accompanying threads. Here are at least 5 guys who had their Sammies calibrated:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3213410#post3213410

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3214793#post3214793

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3672017#post3672017

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3672114#post3672114

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3673703#post3673703


Enjoy,
Jeff

Thanks, everyone who responded. You've been very helpful.

I am going to review the posts and then evaluate whether it will worth it to me to spend the $250 for ISF calibration here in Chicago.

In particular, I'd like to see more subtle gradation between areas of differing value on the screen- right now, gradients from light to dark look rather "banded" or more like bars than a gradient smoothly going from light to dark. This leads to "crush" because there aren't smooth transitions from "black" (such as it is on this set) to "dark gray" etc. I'm not sure if this is an unavoidable result of 8-bit DAC which I'm told is used in these sets, or if it can be "adjusted out" by properly setting up the grayscale and the color temperature. If it seems to me from the posts I will be reading that ISF calibration can offer me some help in these areas, then for sure I'll spring for it.

Thanks again.

Along the lines of the banding and gradation issues, I was watching Finding Nemo again this weekend with the wife and kiddo and damned if I didn't see lots of the dithering twinkles all over the place in all the ocean scenes with somewhat constant blue backgrounds. Now let it be known that I am using component video from my ancient Toshiba SD-3109 DVDP into the HLN617W. I don't seem to recall whether Nemo had alot of mpeg2 compression artifacts or not. If someone happens to know the answer, can you let me know? I hadn't watched anything in the theater in awhile and seeing this problem just started making my stomach churn again over spending what I did on the tv for performance like this. I'm hoping and praying that a DVI/HDMI DVDP solves many of these issues with the all digital path.

Later,
Jeff

That disc has a ton of motion artifacts that I have seen. I was using it as a reference disc until I realized how difficult or bad (take your pick) the material on that disc is. It was one of the first things I tried on my DLP and it made me cringe. Lot's of dithering in the fast moving swimming scenes. I think the tv is showing flaws that were always there. The HD-931 seemed to remove a lot of what I was seeing but some of it is in the transfer IMHO. I also agree with you iceblade about the lack of a decent DVI player out there. I'm tired of the compromises. I want one that does everything the way it should for a fair price!!! And I will buy the first day, JUST RELEASE IT ALREADY!

Amen, brother. How players that have issues that were solved a generation ago are still being released (chroma bug, black level issues, etc.) I will never know.

Thanks for the answer on the Nemo issues. I THOUGHT I recalled reading/hearing that it was far from being a reference disc, but I figured I'd double check anyway.

Thanks,
Jeff

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
That disc has a ton of motion artifacts that I have seen. I was using it as a reference disc until I realized how difficult or bad (take your pick) the material on that disc is. It was one of the first things I tried on my DLP and it made me cringe. Lot's of dithering in the fast moving swimming scenes. I think the tv is showing flaws that were always there.
What you are seeing might also be motion artifacts from the TV. Images can seem to break up during fast horizontal motion (like panning shots). I use the 'still' button on the remote to check if the artifacts are on the DVD or caused by the TV, if they are gone when the TV is 'still' then the image coming off the DVD is fine, but the DLP can't keep up with the speed of the motion.

Originally posted by Iceblade
Along the lines of the banding and gradation issues, I was watching Finding Nemo again this weekend with the wife and kiddo and damned if I didn't see lots of the dithering twinkles all over the place in all the ocean scenes with somewhat constant blue backgrounds. Now let it be known that I am using component video from my ancient Toshiba SD-3109 DVDP into the HLN617W. I don't seem to recall whether Nemo had alot of mpeg2 compression artifacts or not. If someone happens to know the answer, can you let me know? I hadn't watched anything in the theater in awhile and seeing this problem just started making my stomach churn again over spending what I did on the tv for performance like this. I'm hoping and praying that a DVI/HDMI DVDP solves many of these issues with the all digital path.

Later,
Jeff

I have a Phillips DVD recorder and I think Finding Nemo is the film to play to folks if you want to show off your set. I've only used the widescreen version of this movie but it is crystal clear and no motion artifacts that I can see and I'm used to seeing them because I am a big sports nut and I see them all the time in live broadcasts. I use a COMP 2 connection.

So I think Finding Nemo is the standard of which to compare video quality.

Now that my HLN has 500 hours I decided it was time to recalibrate -- I could sense a drift of fleshtones toward red (I use only DVI inputs, so I have no Tint controls). Here are my original settings (about 75 hours) and the new settings at 500 hours:

Setting 75 Hours 500 Hours
Red Gain 128 128
Green Gain 113 121
Blue Gain 97 106
Red Offset 128 128
Green Offset 130 131
Blue Offset 134 135
SubBrightness 242 242
SubContrast 116 116

Essentially what has happened is Green light output weakened about 7% and Blue about 9 % -- this is born out in the overall luminance before recalibration. Luminance after recal is similar to before, so the Red output seems fairly stable. Once the offets are correct they seem to be largely independent of gain -- I pretty much advanced Green to fix the Red bias in fleshtones I was noticing, then adjusted Blue to bring up the temperature to the desired 6500K. After much fussing around I found that was pretty much all it took.

So if your calibrated set wanders a bit over life, I'd suggest the same process: increase Green to get proper fleshtones on DVI (the other inputs have tint control), then increase Blue to push the temp back up to 6500K (with whatever you use for a temp reference).

This aging behavior suggest that the high factory color temp and Green push are a ham-handed attempt to hit some desired color balance later in life. But as I scanned a CC showroom today it was easy to pick out the Sammy -- everything was Grinch Green.

Will try to report back at other points later in lamp life.

Thanks for the update, as well as all your other helpful posts k2ue.
It will be interesting to see if your colors settle down now that you are over 500 hours. Considering the 'stated' lamp-life is in the neighborhood of 8000 hours, it would be a hassle to have to recalibrate every couple of hundred.

I just got the SA3250 STB from Comcast w/ DVI enabled. I have the Sammy 507W. Any tips for connecting these two via DVI (I have a DVI-D Dual cable) that could prevent some headaches? I did a quick thread search and saw no specific references to the S3250 & DVI.

Thanks,
Zebras23

K2ue, I also thank you for your update as all of my successful SM tweaking has been based on your work. You are my DLP tweak hero sir. I have been very pleased with the improvements made with your settings although I found myself adding more sub contrast because of the difference in screen size (56) not sure if that was the right thing to do or if it is contributing to my very hot whites on sd material. HD is still looking wonderful. One point of clarification. I hate most of the current DVI players and my Comcast does not currently support it so I am using component. Component at anything higher than 480i also does not have tint control so I don't have it either. That's another reason I'm thankful that you posted this way around that. I wish I could let the TV scale the 480i sd stuff but oh well. The W1 folks lucked out with the full range comp inputs.
How do I check the number of hours on the bulb???

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
K2ue, I also thank you for your update as all of my successful SM tweaking has been based on your work. You are my DLP tweak hero sir. I have been very pleased with the improvements made with your settings although I found myself adding more sub contrast because of the difference in screen size (56) not sure if that was the right thing to do or if it is contributing to my very hot whites on sd material. HD is still looking wonderful. One point of clarification. I hate most of the current DVI players and my Comcast does not currently support it so I am using component. Component at anything higher than 480i also does not have tint control so I don't have it either. That's another reason I'm thankful that you posted this way around that. I wish I could let the TV scale the 480i sd stuff but oh well. The W1 folks lucked out with the full range comp inputs.
How do I check the number of hours on the bulb???

The lamp hours are listed in one on the Service Menus, I think the bottom-most.

Running up the SubContrast beyond the capabilities of the Red channel will cause Blue and Green to go up at the extreme top end, but not Red -- the net effect is bright White would be cold (too Blue/temp too high), and may have a visible Green cast. The former is not very noticeable, and if the latter is not apparent, then you are cheating the devil successfully <grin>. But if they are -- that's why. . .

(quote)The W1 folks lucked out with the full range comp inputs. (quote)

What all does the w1's have that the w's don't?

Thanks for the quick reply Clyde! When I said "hot" I actually meant......crushed almost. Like it's so intense that detail is lost. Bright windows or even reflections on someone's face can be bright like looking at the sun. Not so much that it hurts your eyes but like I said the detail is gone. I went upstairs to look at the pretty normal bedroom flat screen Magnavox and on the same show could see plenty of detail and actually had a better picture. This is bad SD though. This does not happen on HD so I wondered how it could be the STB but I suppose it could be passing a very ugly 480p signal.

1Mark1 - the W1 IIRC DLPs have 3 comp inputs that can pass 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i. This let's one device that needs to switch back and forth stay on one input (ex...XBox which plays 480i and 720p games). If I had that I would run my HD stuff in 720p and my 4:3 override would be set to 480i to let my "hopefully" superior TV scaler show its talents. But all I can do is use the 480p output of my Motorola 6100 STB since 480i is not supported on the same input used for HD......sigh.....confused yet?

I really need to think less about this and enjoy the shows :p

Originally posted by HT-Obsession

1Mark1 - the W1 IIRC DLPs have 3 comp inputs that can pass 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i. This let's one device that needs to switch back and forth stay on one input (ex...XBox which plays 480i and 720p games). If I had that I would run my HD stuff in 720p and my 4:3 override would be set to 480i to let my "hopefully" superior TV scaler show its talents. But all I can do is use the 480p output of my Motorola 6100 STB since 480i is not supported on the same input used for HD......sigh.....confused yet?

I really need to think less about this and enjoy the shows :p [/B]


Thanks for the reply. I see now that comp1 only supports 480i and 408p formats. Didn't realize it was that limited. I am a bit confused about the 4:3 override. I also would like to know what/when I should have my stb set to: 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i, or pass? TIA

I would just set it to pass and let samsung's internal scaler take care of making it 720P (if it needs to be scaled).

I would think the Samsung's scaler is going to perform better than the one in your STB.

Got my HLN437W1 last week and love it, but a few questions . .

1) I've got my Pace box set to Pass and let the TV do all necessary scaling. When I flip between sdtv channels there is no delay; however, when I flip from sdtv to a hd (or hd to sd) the screen flickers and it takes about 5sec to reset. Anyone else have this problem? Is this just how much time it takes for the re-scaler to work?

2) I used the 1-8-1-mute-power sequence to get into the service menu and I can view the settings, but I can't change any of them? What am I doing wrong?

Thanks in advance for your help, and also thanks for all the info that led me to buy this great piece of machinery!

Try mute-1-8-2-power

mute-1-8-2-power is what I meant . . . that's what I get for depending on memory. Still no luck . . .

If I have STB set to pass using comp I can't get any SD channels, only HD. Using DVI I can but there is a delay switchng from SD to HD.

1Mark1 - I have my STB set to:

TV type - 16:9
YPbPr output - 720p
4:3 override - 480p

there is no pass thru setting for the component (YPbPr) on mine. You choose 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i and I chose the DLP's native resolution of 720p. Setting the 4:3 override to "off" puts black bars on the sides of everything not broadcast in 16:9 (non-HD stuff). 480i will not be supported on our limited inputs or this is what I would probably use (discussed above). The only choice is 480p. This IS a stretched 4:3 picture though so things will look funny after watching a lot of 16:9 programming. Also if you set it up this way, you can use the "aspect" button on your remote to un-stretch the picture.

Where is the 4:3 override? I do not see it in Settings.

for my cable box you press "menu" with the power off and the screen I gave the settings for comes up. This is a Comcast Motorola (6100 I think) high def box. Not sure if all boxes have a 4:3 override :confused:

Thanks HT.

Trying to set my Comcast HD cable box to 720p but the whenever I move from 1080i to the next setting, I get snow and static on the screen. Moving to the next setting gives me the 480i screen. Is this a cable box problem or a problem with my sammy?

Originally posted by edmac
Trying to set my Comcast HD cable box to 720p but the whenever I move from 1080i to the next setting, I get snow and static on the screen. Moving to the next setting gives me the 480i screen. Is this a cable box problem or a problem with my sammy?

I had a similar issue after my Comcast install. In the cable box service menu, all I could set the box to was 480i. Took me a good 5 minutes of trying to figure out what was wrong before I remembered that in addition to the component cable, the installer had also hooked up the box to the ANT input on my HLN437W. And I was still viewing via the antenna input :o

Otherwise, which set top box is it and how is it connected to your TV? Try plugging something else into that input -- if it works you can rule out the possibility of it being the TV.

Originally posted by edmac
Trying to set my Comcast HD cable box to 720p but the whenever I move from 1080i to the next setting, I get snow and static on the screen. Moving to the next setting gives me the 480i screen. Is this a cable box problem or a problem with my sammy?

Agree with others, it sounds like the wrong input. Are you sure you are not watching an input other than component or component #1. The box should be on comp 2 or 3 to pass a 480p, 720p, or 1080i signal.

The TV is set to Component 2. The Comast box is plugged into component 2. Hit Power off on cable box then Menu and I get a set up screen. But I cannot get this screen to display 720p. It will display 1080i, 480i and 480p.

Edmac that can't be possible. Unless you have one of the new "W1" Sammys, Comp #2 cannot pass a 480i signal. I find it strange that it won't take a 720p signal when that's what everything else gets converted to anyway. I would try a new box (could be faulty) if you can which may be quicker than a service call but if you are in fact explaining this correctly it could very well be a problem with the set. A very strange one that I have yet to hear though. For some reason I keep a mental Rolodex of problems for everything (not just HT gear) very strange :o

I have dishnetwork and when I try to put my hdpvr921 into 720p I also can't get signal thru my dvi I have a hln61w1.
it works 1080i and 480 but just weird static in 720
I called dish once and they realy didnt answer and I realy didnt press them but they didnt realy have an answer.
so I am not sure wether the the picture is at its best at 1080i
thanks
greg

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
Edmac that can't be possible. Unless you have one of the new "W1" Sammys, Comp #2 cannot pass a 480i signal. I find it strange that it won't take a 720p signal when that's what everything else gets converted to anyway. I would try a new box (could be faulty) if you can which may be quicker than a service call but if you are in fact explaining this correctly it could very well be a problem with the set. A very strange one that I have yet to hear though. For some reason I keep a mental Rolodex of problems for everything (not just HT gear) very strange :o

I do have a "W1". Mfg date April 2004.

blugreg - 720 is the native resolution of your samsung so anything you feed it will be converted to that. Feeding it 720p keeps it from having to scale the images up or down to 720p and should be the most consistent in terms of quality. Maybe your box won't put out 720p but the Sammy certainly can take it.

edmac - understood on the W1 ;) you should be able to run any res you want. Not sure if you or blugreg has tried to pass 720p via another input yet (DVI, or component which ever one you have not tried) to see if that works. I'm still inclined to think it's the boxes but there is no reason not to call Samsung tech support at this point. They will walk you through some steps to determine if it's the tv or the box.

Just setting the STB on 720 may not be the best possible PQ.

Its most likely that the scaler in the TV is superior to the one in the STB. That being the case you may want to set the STB to 1080 and allow the set to scale it to 720.

My Comcast system has the HD channels in these formats

FOX 480P (Will be 720P in the fall of 04)

CBS 1081i
NBC 1080i
PBS 1080i
HBO 1080i
MAX 1080i
SHOW 1080i
STARZ 1080i
INHD 1080i (1 and 2)
Comcast Sports 1080i ( I believe)

ABC 720p
ESPN 720P

With the minority of the channels not in 1080 it seems to make sense to set it to 1080. If you find yourself watching the 720 channels change it to 720 so there is no conversion, it only takes less than 10 seconds.

edmac - If you have the Moto 5100 or 6200 you have the 720 option. I have noticed that sometimes it skips 720 and I have to cycle through the options more than once to get it. If you still cant find it, request a new box from them.

We have a HLN5065 with the moto 6208 dvr. The settings on the moto are 1080i for YPbPr Output and 4:3 Override 480i. I also cannot get a picture using 720p for YPbPr. My question is, should I be using component 1 or component 2? Does Component 2 support 720p and then I can set the moto to 720p also to avoid conversion from 1080i to 720p? I don't want to use the DVI for various reasons so would like to know if anyone notices any PQ difference using Component 2. Thanks.

Linda Luv, use comp 2 or 3. Either of those will take a 480p (for your 4:3 override), 720p, or 1080i signal for your HD stuff. Comp 1 will only take 480p or 480i and that's where I stick the DVD player.

Component 2 or 3 as your manual says.

The manual implies that component 2 doesn't support 480i...does that mean the analog channels will not work? Sorry to ask so many questions but to change this is going to be a super hassle pulling out the tv from the cabinet.

Got the dvi looking real good except for some sunburned faces, but the comp still has a bad green tint. I have only changed the gama to 0 in both no other sm tweeks. Think I might return this unit. Can't get dvi from pc to work either.

I found out something that I should have automatically realized. I had been using a Sammy SIR T165 for my OTA and had the picture looking fantastic after much tweaking. When I just went to VOOM with their Motorola DSR550 I noticed a major difference. The colors were not as sharp and pq not as crisp. I had used DVI in both setups. I never thought the STB would make that much of a difference. Seems I have to turn the SUBBR way down, color up among a few other minor tweaks but still not where I had it.

Anyone else notice this about the DSR 550? It seems that its OTA tuner module is not as good. Other HD is soft. VOOM is supposed to go to WM9 this fall for compression but I am not sure that would make any difference in the tuner of local OTA. Really a puzzle. I was going to put up by SAMMY STB on EBAY but I think I will hold on to it for awhile longer.

Originally posted by LindaLuv
The manual implies that component 2 doesn't support 480i...does that mean the analog channels will not work? Sorry to ask so many questions but to change this is going to be a super hassle pulling out the tv from the cabinet.

Component 2 does NOT support 480i on your set. You will have to set the 4:3 override to 480p. To get HD picture quality you are paying for you need to use comp 2 or 3 thats it. Hassle or no it will be better and it's just a one time hassle anyways :D

Originally posted by Barrybud
Just setting the STB on 720 may not be the best possible PQ.

Its most likely that the scaler in the TV is superior to the one in the STB. That being the case you may want to set the STB to 1080 and allow the set to scale it to 720.

My Comcast system has the HD channels in these formats

FOX 480P (Will be 720P in the fall of 04)

CBS 1081i
NBC 1080i
PBS 1080i
HBO 1080i
MAX 1080i
SHOW 1080i
STARZ 1080i
INHD 1080i (1 and 2)
Comcast Sports 1080i ( I believe)

ABC 720p
ESPN 720P

With the minority of the channels not in 1080 it seems to make sense to set it to 1080. If you find yourself watching the 720 channels change it to 720 so there is no conversion, it only takes less than 10 seconds.

edmac - If you have the Moto 5100 or 6200 you have the 720 option. I have noticed that sometimes it skips 720 and I have to cycle through the options more than once to get it. If you still cant find it, request a new box from them.

BarryBud
Correct me if I'm wrong but lets go with the assumption that the TV scaler is better (I agree by the way). Signal comes in and gets scaled by the STB to 1080i (done poorly by the boxes scaler introducing artifacts or something) then gets passed to the tv who now has to scale the already flawed image again to 720p along with any flaws it may introduce itself. It seems to me that an extra layer is being added there and all my HT instincts say the fewer translations the better. Now if scaling inherently meant "correcting" as opposed to translating, that would be a different story. I invite discussion on this. By the way I am going to go change my Comcast box to 1080i and see what I can see. ;)

Thanks HT, made the change to component 2. All the HD channels look fantastic..not just INHD. But for whatever reason, SD channels look better when I set 4:3 Override to 480i. Also, I cannot get a picture using 720p for YPbPr output. Any reason why the sammy 5065 cannot acccept a 720p from the moto 6204 STB? Just curious...really love the PQ now with these tweaks.

Just saw a copy of the Samsung service manual, and there was an interesting note on Gamma settings (section 5-13):

"When the value is 4, it is normal. But, for productions from July 2002, it is normal when the value is 1."

May explain some of the discrepancies on this thread from way back. My firmware=302 HLN5065 shipped with gamma=4, and looked better with gamma=1.

Where do I get a service manual for a HLD467???

Steve

steve,

you can get the service manual at www.samsungparts.com

Just posting my Ver. 208 settings if any are interested. I Could never get a good pic using Gamma 4 so changed to gamma 1. I found I didn't lose as much punch from the picture as I did on Gamma 0. As well I didn't have to stray much from the default settings.

Gamma 1
R gain 128
G gain 120
B gain 120
R offset 128
G offset 128
B offset 132

Contrast 93
Brightness 50
Sharpness 50
Colour 34
Tint 50/50

I use these settings for composite and RF SD signals only.

Anybody know where I can get a SM for a 4365W1? I was just looking at the SM for a 4365W, and it is quite different from what I'm seeing on my 4365W1....

The Dreamer

The HLN 467/567 manuals are here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=416294)

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
1Mark1 - I have my STB set to:

TV type - 16:9
YPbPr output - 720p
4:3 override - 480p

there is no pass thru setting for the component (YPbPr) on mine. You choose 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i and I chose the DLP's native resolution of 720p. Setting the 4:3 override to "off" puts black bars on the sides of everything not broadcast in 16:9 (non-HD stuff). 480i will not be supported on our limited inputs or this is what I would probably use (discussed above). The only choice is 480p. This IS a stretched 4:3 picture though so things will look funny after watching a lot of 16:9 programming. Also if you set it up this way, you can use the "aspect" button on your remote to un-stretch the picture.

The "override" tells the STB what to do with any non-HD signal. I.e., if your output is set to 720p and the override it is set to "off," there will be no override, and any non-HD channels will be scaled to 1280x720p, with black bars on the sides of the screen. If the override is set to 480p, like you say, it will be a 720x480 stretched image (unless you un-stretch it).

I have the HLN4365W with a Comcast Motorola 6200 box, hooked up with DVI, set to 16:9, 1080i, and 480p override. Like Barrybud said, most HD broadcasts are in 1080i, so leaving it set to that lets them pass right through to the TV without making the box convert it. And since I'm using DVI, and you can't do 480i over DVI cable, I'm letting the STB de-interlace SD/digital channels into 480p (can view in WideTV, WidePC, and a Normal size which puts teh 720x480 signal in the very middle of the screen, with black on all four sides - usually leave it on WideTV stretched). I can also turn override to off, leaving all 4:3 channels up-converted to 1080i with black bars on either side of the screen.

HT-Obsession - the channels/broadcasts are already coming through cable in 1080i format. If you output them from your STB to TV in 720p, it means your cable box is doing the converting to 720p instead of your TV. With ABC, which broadcasts in 720p, you can change your box to output in 720p for that station's native resolution, so it doesn't have to up-convert to 1080i only to make the TV re-convert it back down.

I have become increasingly unhappy with the brown and skin-tone rendition of my HLN467W calibrated to 6500K at "Normal" -- skin seemed to push toward red or green too easily, and seemed to pull toward Red when the Color was backed-down, as seemed most lifelike on DirecTV channels.

Thinking that the Normal-Warm1-Warm-2 setting might influence color decoder vector mapping, I first tried placing Warm2 at 6500K. No good -- it required Normal be over 10,000K, and was too Red at 6500K when neutral at 10,000K+. But calibrating at 8000K put Warm1 nicely at 6500K, and Browns/Skin-Tones were much better, i.e. in addition to there being less Red-Green shift across individual faces, there was noticeably less Red-Green error across the many DirecTV channels. I conclude that the Normal-Warm1-etc setting does indeed affect color mapping, and favorably.

One again Red was set to its upper limit when calibrating (at 8000K), i.e. the point where one step up in SubC (with Green and Blue off) gave only a half-step increase in output. Black was adjusted to just suppress the stipple in the full Black areas (near-Blacks are rendered with varying degrees of stipple). Gamma was set to 0 (the closest to the desired Y to IRE mapping).

I was concerned that the Normal-Warm1-etc setting might reduce the scarce Red output, but was relieved to find that there was no loss of Luminance switching from Normal to Warm1 -- they do just kill some Green and Blue, without touching Red.

I've also noticed that once you get the Offsets right you can pretty much dial-up any color temp you like by changing only Green and Blue Gain, and still have correct tracking over the Gray-scale.

My final settings (at about 600 lamp hours, V309 Firmware, DVI Input) are:
Gamma 0
Gains: Red 128, Green 113, Blue 105
Offsets: Red 128, Green 131, Blue 135
SubBrightness: 237
SubContrast: 117
Contrast 100
Brightness 50
Color 30 (for DirecTV, which seems to exaggerate Chroma on most channels, 50 is correct on DVD)
Warm1

I'm quite happy with how this looks, and pending some measurements on HDNet Test Patterns I'll record today, it will probably stay this way.

Your mileage may vary. . .

Originally posted by k2ue
I have become increasingly unhappy with the brown and skin-tone rendition of my HLN467W calibrated to 6500K at "Normal" -- skin seemed to push toward red or green too easily, and seemed to pull toward Red when the Color was backed-down, as seemed most lifelike on DirecTV channels...

Personally, I think it's a mistake to tweak a monitor bsed on what you see from D*, or any transmission-based source.

I have both my DVD player and STB connected to my HLM617W via progressive component, which share the same calibration settings. Everything looks fine on DVD, but D* and OTA is a real crap shoot.

Sometimes, characters on Sci-Fi channel Stargate SG-1 (for example) all look like they have sunburns, and other times they look fine. I get similar results on other channels, although HD channels (both D* and OTA) seem a bit more consistent. I usually just turn color down in the user menu to adjust when the channel looks flakey

I've quit worrying about how things look from my STB because I know the source varies in quality, even for a given channel. It looks right with DVD, so that's where I leave it.

Originally posted by dwette
Personally, I think it's a mistake to tweak a monitor bsed on what you see from D*, or any transmission-based source.

Except that 90%+ of our viewing is D*, captured on an HD Tivo. And excessive sensitivity to chroma phase is a defect, no matter how one goes about discovering it. Browns on DVD look better also, so it's win-win.

The same line of reasoning suggests that, after setting up a speaker system on pink noise, your Deutsche Grammophon records sound shrill you should do nothing about it -- it's a transmission system error.

I'd like to start tweaking my new HLN617W1. Before I start messing with anything, should I wait a while... I just received it yesterday. :)

I've noticed many people posting their firmware before posting their settings. Where do I find my firmware on this unit ?

Thanks!
Matthew

Originally posted by k2ue
Except that 90%+ of our viewing is D*, captured on an HD Tivo. And excessive sensitivity to chroma phase is a defect, no matter how one goes about discovering it. Browns on DVD look better also, so it's win-win.


My point is that if I don't have color display defects with DVD, then I'm not going to start adjusting because D* looks bad. But I can respect your desire to tweak if D* is your main viewing material, and understand now you discovered and corrected a defect viewing D* that applies to DVD as well.

Originally posted by k2ue
The same line of reasoning suggests that, after setting up a speaker system on pink noise, your Deutsche Grammophon records sound shrill you should do nothing about it -- it's a transmission system error.

Sorry, I don't concur. My prior line of reasoning would produce the analogy that if I feel my setup sounds correct with the phono input, then it may not sound right when using my FM tuner, but I expect that possibility since stations may be inconsistent in strength and quality of their broadcasts.

And that's indeed the case with me. I have a dedicated analog stereo system. It's setup to sound best playing LPs from a Linn Sondek LP12 with a moving coil phono input. If some DGG recording sounds shrill, then I'm not not going to change my setup to correct for poor mastering of that particular content. I use specific tracks from a set of about 6 jazz/classical LPs to tune my system (mostly to dial in tracking force and position speakers).

Nevetherless, let's keep it friendly. I respect your desire to get optimal quality from your STB. My priority is DVD.

Originally posted by k2ue
I
I'm quite happy with how this looks, and pending some measurements on HDNet Test Patterns I'll record today, it will probably stay this way.

Your mileage may vary. . .
Would you give us a check after you do some measurements? Mine is the same version as yours and about the same hours. But I have had the Sub C at 144 as the pq looks hazy when set to lower and gamma at 0.

Also I have noticed on fine line details like a grill of a car or a screen door a shimmring or flickering of the lines. I also see it when I use DVE on the fine line test pattern. Is this normal or should I call for service?

Originally posted by jtirak
Mine is the same version as yours and about the same hours. But I have had the Sub C at 144 as the pq looks hazy when set to lower and gamma at 0.

Also I have noticed on fine line details like a grill of a car or a screen door a shimmring or flickering of the lines. I also see it when I use DVE on the fine line test pattern.

What type of connection are you using to your DVD when viewing DVE?

Clyde,

I also have been using warm 1 since getting my STB working over DVI (and using your SM settings of course) because I felt the colors and tones were not as vivid as they were over component. I did not want to use it for fear of inaccurate rendering of what you had worked so hard to calibrate but it is actually quite pleasing as you have found as well.

As a side note Clyde, are you getting the "W1" upgrade that Samsung is offering on HLN sets?

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
As a side note Clyde, are you getting the "W1" upgrade that Samsung is offering on HLN sets?

Since my set is working nicely there is zero chance I will let an unknown technician inside for an update I don't need (I use only DVI, and have no lip-sync issues).

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
Clyde,

I also have been using warm 1 since getting my STB working over DVI (and using your SM settings of course) because I felt the colors and tones were not as vivid as they were over component. I did not want to use it for fear of inaccurate rendering of what you had worked so hard to calibrate but it is actually quite pleasing as you have found as well.

As a side note Clyde, are you getting the "W1" upgrade that Samsung is offering on HLN sets?

Is this an upgrade like the digiboard one from last year. Do you have a link to info about getting it. Is there a Samsung site for ordering?

Thx...

Dean

Originally posted by k2ue
What type of connection are you using to your DVD when viewing DVE?

Fair questions. The DVD is hooked to the component inputs of my SIR T165 STB and from there via the DVI to the HLN4365. However, I have also connected the DVD direct and a lower Sub C appears even worse.

Originally posted by tebbens
I'd like to start tweaking my new HLN617W1. Before I start messing with anything, should I wait a while... I just received it yesterday. :)

I've noticed many people posting their firmware before posting their settings. Where do I find my firmware on this unit ?

Thanks!
Matthew

With the TV on, go to the Sound settings and turn the beep confirmation off. Then turn the TV off and press Mute - 1 - 8 -2 - Power to open up the service menu. The firmware should be down on the bottom of the screen, IIRC. Note that you can change inputs from the service menu the same way as normal, and some inputs (component, composite/RF, etc., VGA computer) have separate settings, while DNIe affects color/settings on all inputs.

Dwette,

There is no official site or Samsung communication about it. It's for HLN owners that have a problem with lip sync on their sets. Not all have it, and as Clyde correctly pointed out, DVI will pretty much eliminate it even if you do have it.

K2UE ore anyone

Can you over tweak these things? Seems like I am always striving for perfection. I do more tweaking than watching and wonder if I am doing any damage, longterm or short

Originally posted by jtirak
K2UE ore anyone

Can you over tweak these things? Seems like I am always striving for perfection. I do more tweaking than watching and wonder if I am doing any damage, longterm or short

Well, let's face it, you're among sick puppies -- there are no more obsessive people on the planet than audiophiles/videophiles. If you can't help yourself from adjusting things you don't actually understand, you will probably damage something eventually. If you actually understand what you're tweaking it shouldn't take forever to get it right, or at least find a compromise that makes most source material acceptable. If you MUST make EVERYTHING acceptable by means of adjustments buried in the Service Menu -- professional help is advisable, as this is how we define disorder. But my attitude is a bit jaundiced -- I have the gynecologist's problem -- I design chips, so I stare at this stuff all day long, making it harder to get really worked up over it at night <grin>.

Originally posted by jtirak
Would you give us a check after you do some measurements? Mine is the same version as yours and about the same hours. But I have had the Sub C at 144 as the pq looks hazy when set to lower and gamma at 0.

Also I have noticed on fine line details like a grill of a car or a screen door a shimmring or flickering of the lines. I also see it when I use DVE on the fine line test pattern. Is this normal or should I call for service?

OK, the test patterns on HDNET measure out identically to AVIA or DVE via my Bravo D1 thru DVI, so I'm staying with the adjustments I posted.

There are several possible issues with your setup:

1. The TS16x series probably has a different Black (and possibly White) level than the HD Tivo or Bravo D1, so I would expect you to need different SubB and SubC levels.

2. A 480 external input to a Samsung will have a output Black level 7.5 IRE above the Black level from a 720 or 1080 source (this has been previously reported, and I observed it when I had a TS-360).

3. When you feed Component to the HLN you have a whole additional set of adjustments that can modify what the SubB and SubC settings do.

Shimmering may be normal on some grid patterns of the type you noted, especially if an interlace mode is in use.

The upshot is my results would only be applicable to straight DVI sources with correct levels, and will be wrong by definition with other non-conformant DVI or non-DVI sources.

Originally posted by k2ue
Well, let's face it, you're among sick puppies --

Thanks for the advice. I thought I saw a post on here a few months ago from someone at Samsung that gave the impression the service menu adjustments would not do any damage. I was hoping that was correct. I know what each of the Offsets, Gains subs do. It is just getting the right balance. I just note that if my sub C is too low in the 108 to 114 area, the entire picture is very very hazy and flat. Gamma looks good at 0 or 1 but I guess I prefer 0 as long as the sub C is up. The question is how much of the changes I notice are do to the Bulb wear and am I causing additional wear by adjusting and cycling on and off to judge results. I have just over 600 hours.

Also could it be my eyes are the ones that are changing and not the set from overs staring such as viewing a computer screen for long hours?

I have been in TV production for nearly 30 years so I have grown into the habit of being very critical on PQ. It is the first thing I check out when going into post production house is to see when the last calibration was done.

You describe me right. Obsessive, non-technical but know enough to be dangerous. My wife would underline "obsessive."

Originally posted by jtirak
Thanks for the advice. I thought I saw a post on here a few months ago from someone at Samsung that gave the impression the service menu adjustments would not do any damage. I was hoping that was correct. I know what each of the Offsets, Gains subs do. It is just getting the right balance. I just note that if my sub C is too low in the 108 to 114 area, the entire picture is very very hazy and flat. Gamma looks good at 0 or 1 but I guess I prefer 0 as long as the sub C is up. The question is how much of the changes I notice are do to the Bulb wear and am I causing additional wear by adjusting and cycling on and off to judge results. I have just over 600 hours.

Also could it be my eyes are the ones that are changing and not the set from overs staring such as viewing a computer screen for long hours?

I have been in TV production for nearly 30 years so I have grown into the habit of being very critical on PQ. It is the first thing I check out when going into post production house is to see when the last calibration was done.

You describe me right. Obsessive, non-technical but know enough to be dangerous. My wife would underline "obsessive."

I was referring more generically to adjustments than the context of the HLN -- as you are probably aware a guy who finds the bias adjustment on his tube amp, and doesn't understand decreased bias means possibly less crossover distortion but DEFINITELY more heat will eventually melt something while trying to see if it sounds better set low. Similarly setting the Screen controls up on a CRT projection set can be very expensive after excessive beam current whacks the cathodes and/or the phosphors.

I can't think of HLN menu item that is dangerous, with three possible exceptions:
1. Hopefully the comment from the Samsung guy means that the Bulb Type setting only affects color balance -- it could just as well change a voltage that would whack bulb life or light output -- you need to KNOW before dorking with it.
2. Resetting the bulb timer is probably undoable -- which means you've lost track AND IF any tweaks are made in color balance over bulb aging it will do it wrong.
3. If you've laid out good money for an ISF calibration and didle the reset flag, you've flushed the ISF cost (assuming there is zero chance the guy that would do this has written anything down).

The good news is nothing (other than possibility #1 above, which is probably not the case) will bother the bulb life -- it just sits there and shines -- all the adjustments post-process the light it emits, directing it either to the screen or an internal absorbing surface.

SubC interacts with both the Gains and Offsets, so it is hard to talk about it in a vacuum, but assuming the sum of each Gain and Offset is in the 240-256 range then yes, SubC below about 114 is just throwing away light output for no good reason -- you can always back down the User Menu Contrast if it's too bright for the room. I sense a mythology among HLN users that running Contrast low will make it easier on the lamp -- wrong -- it just sits there and glows at constant brilliance, so if you waste the visible light output when you really would have liked it brighter it's just a dumb move.

On the high side of SubC the color with the highest Gain+Offset total will run out of light first, i.e. it's mirrors will reach the state where they are on for the longest possible time, and there is no more to give. Running SubC above that level (assuming User Contrast is at 100) will cause peak White to pull to Blue-Green, since there is no Red increase left to match the larger Green and Blue at the high end. This also makes Gray-scale color temp tracking impossible unless you back off on the User Contrast, which is a strange way to calibrate.

So somewhere in between is correct SubC, which as I've noted is easiest to find by identifying where Red hits the wall with a light meter of some sort (and the other colors off).

SubB is easy -- just find something for that source that is supposed to be full Black and adjust SubB until Gray gives way to stippled dark Grey, and just reaches unstippled Black - that step is it.

The difference between Gamma 0 and Gamma 1 is subtle -- Gamma 1 is a bit truer at low levels, BUT compresses the high end, attenuating peak White punch on direct sun shots, explosions, etc. Gamma 0 is about equally good/bad in both ranges, and places the center 50 IRE level at the right point relative to peak White, which is a fair basis for compromise. So someone who favors Gamma 1 probably uses dark scenes to judge -- I would suggest they purposely evaluate bright scenes and see if they are as happy with those -- life is full of choices.

When I recheck settings made at 500 and 600 hours I'm seeing negligible lamp color balance shift, so I'm guessing we can enjoy our sets for the next few thousand hours with minimal tweaking.

Originally posted by k2ue
I
When I recheck settings made at 500 and 600 hours I'm seeing negligible lamp color balance shift, so I'm guessing we can enjoy our sets for the next few thousand hours with minimal tweaking.

Thanks again. I think that was a good primer for all besides myself. The only SM adjustments I will make or have made are Gains, Offsets, Sub C Sub B and Gamma. the usual ones. I don't feel comfortable playing with any of the others. Your comments on CRT.. how do they apply to DLP? Can pixels be worn out by overdriving them?

Originally posted by jtirak
Thanks again. I think that was a good primer for all besides myself. The only SM adjustments I will make or have made are Gains, Offsets, Sub C Sub B and Gamma. the usual ones. I don't feel comfortable playing with any of the others. Your comments on CRT.. how do they apply to DLP? Can pixels be worn out by overdriving them?

The light impinging on the moving mirrors never changes, and they go thru one on-off cycle for every color change on the wheel -- the only thing that changes is the on-to-off time ratio, which is the relative duration of two NON-motion states. So settings are just not going to affect the DLP cell's life.

Originally posted by k2ue
The light impinging on the moving mirrors never changes, and they go thru one on-off cycle for every color change on the wheel -- the only thing that changes is the on-to-off time ratio, which is the relative duration of two NON-motion states. So settings are just not going to affect the DLP cell's life.
Hi Clyde,
A little correction - it's not an on-to-off time ratio exactly.
As an example, to get a 50% fill, a mirror on a DLP chip would go through this: 01010101.

I have noticed that when I go into the SM menu to make changes, when I come back to regular viewing, all of my input color presets are back on Dynamic (I have a HLN4365W). Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems like when I do adjustments watching HD through DVI and then back out of the SM and watch the same station with my settings back to Custom, the picture looks a little different.

When working in the SM, do the Dynamic settings apply to the picture I'm seeing? So I'm not adjusting it with the Custom settings as reference?

Originally posted by cyberbri
When working in the SM, do the Dynamic settings apply to the picture I'm seeing? So I'm not adjusting it with the Custom settings as reference?
This is correct. All SM adjustments are made in Dynamic mode.

Originally posted by Kir
Hi Clyde,
A little correction - it's not an on-to-off time ratio exactly.
As an example, to get a 50% fill, a mirror on a DLP chip would go through this: 01010101.

Thanks for the clarification. Based on that operating scenario (8 time slots per color,and distributed on/off time) there is a minimum number of transitions at Full OFF and Full ON, and a maximum number at 50% light output of a given color, which is probably in the 60-75 IRE range for the three colors (with different gain settings and gamma curvature). So transition count would depend primarily on average picture luminance, and would probably decrease a bit at maximum contrast since you would reach the mostly-on state more frequently in picture material.

This still says there is no way to significantly "reduce wear" by lowering Contrast, unless it's so low you seldom reach 50% output, which is a mighty dark picture, suitable only for a fully darkened room.

Please comment if anything I said above is off the mark.

I was tweaking my SM adjustments last night, trying to get the color down right, when I noticed in one of the menus this:

SLR -> Off (default)

I tried turning it on, and on HD signals I noticed really bright whites getting just a little bit brighter. Does anyone know what this is and/or what it does?

Also, is there anything else that's good to adjust for a better picture, besides color, contrast, sharpness in the DNIe menu?

BTW, I have the HLN4365W.

Thanks

Hello Everyone,

It's been a while since I wrote to this forum and almost as long since I've read any threads. I bought my Sammy HLN567W back in November and apart from tweaking the gains and offsets in the SM I have been enjoying my TV very much. Perhaps it got to a point that I stopped worrying about the small problems while watching different DVDs ran off of my HD931 using the DVI ouput and just got more into enjoying the movies for what they were.

I've started reading much of Mr. Washburn's information posted and boy does he know quite a bit when it comes to tweaking and calibrating our Sammys!
I decided to go into my SM and adjust the settings according to Clyde's latest post and I did see a big difference in color and shadow detail. Thank you Clyde for all of your hard work!

I have a few questions that I hope someone can answer. First: I am currently running firmware 302 in my HLN567W. How do I go about getting this updated to the 309 that most people are talking about? When you update your firmware does it change the settings of your SM?

Another question: How do you know what you are running on your Sammy component and DVI inputs when it comes to 480, 720, or 1080? I know this can be selected on my HD931 but only when I turn the progressive scan off. When I hook up a standard progressive scan DVD player to my component inputs of my Sammy, can I select between 480, 720 and 1080 through the TV or does it have a default when you use the component inputs?

I know to many of you these are probably dumb questions. It's just that I have been just enjoying my Sammy and I kind of swayed away from the more technical functions of the TV. I just want to make sure I am enjoying my TV to the fullest. Thanks guys!

I know that at least through my DVI and VGA inputs (HLN4365W) hitting Display (I think) on the remote will tell me the signal resolution and refresh rate (i.e., 1280x720 60hz or 1920x1080 60hz)

IIRC, when using component inputs, it just says "Component #1/2/3"

The only place you can set the input resolution, AFAIK, is on the output source (i.e., HD cable box, DVD player, HTPC, Xbox, etc.)

Originally posted by Ozoner
Hello Everyone,

I have a few questions that I hope someone can answer. First: I am currently running firmware 302 in my HLN567W. How do I go about getting this updated to the 309 that most people are talking about? When you update your firmware does it change the settings of your SM?

I can't recall anyone every giving a (valid) reason why one would NEED to update their firmware -- it appears that any of the firmware can reach the same adjustment points, they just might need different numerical entries. The one area where later firmware has more actual content seems to be Gamma setting, with reports or later firmware having more choices -- but no one has ever suggested that any one of those new choices is BETTER than those available in all versions. I don't worry about going beyond 309, and if I had 302 I'd be happy there too.

It depends on if the newer firmware had newer functionality... like discrete codes, etc. Plus newer firmware means a newer board. I've now gone through 3 different boards, and each time the digital processing board is smaller and smaller, so I'm sure there are other improvements than just the firmware.

Originally posted by johnevo
It depends on if the newer firmware had newer functionality... like discrete codes, etc. Plus newer firmware means a newer board. I've now gone through 3 different boards, and each time the digital processing board is smaller and smaller, so I'm sure there are other improvements than just the firmware.

Yes, Discrete Codes is a good point.

But smaller and few chips means nothing -- maunufacturers are always driving down costs by combining IC's into larger IC's -- but any assumption that performance improves as a result is unfounded -- manufacturers will often accept a slight decrease in perfomance if the cost savings is large enough and product history indicates that the particular characteristic will not be noticed by most buyers.

K2UE OR ANYONE

I have been noticing that my HLN4365 (600+hours) has slowly been loosing contrast. Blacks are not as black. I keep at Dynamic and even boosted the sub_C and the SUB B. But lacks the punch that it used to. It it be it be either a board, lamp dimming or what? I have sub_C set at 142 now when I started out it was 108. Sub_B is 258 orig 249. this is on Component using VOOM Box. Don't like the DVI on the VOOM as it shrinks the pic on SD and just acts weird. I had the box replace once already. But I think the issue is with the TV. How close are the settings between DVI and component?

Did you used to have a different cable box? HD STBs will have different output levels.

But smaller and few chips means nothing -- maunufacturers are always driving down costs by combining IC's into larger IC's -- but any assumption that performance improves as a result is unfounded -- manufacturers will often accept a slight decrease in perfomance if the cost savings is large enough and product history indicates that the particular characteristic will not be noticed by most buyers.

I can't help but agree with you, but still like to think that there were lessons learned and efficiencies gained between the digital board designs, chipsets and firmware updates.

Never had a cable box because I never had cable. Why would someone want to connect an outside wire to a TV in 2004? That is so 1950'ish..Always Satellite... AND STB. the Motorola Box VOOM uses is not great either but I did have a decent picture. No wow but decent.

In adjusting the SM, I have seen i the SM manual and on her that the G_Gain and the G_offset should be left at 120 and 128 respectively. I am wondering if that is too restrictive on a set with over 600 hours on the lamp and that it could be cracked up. Seems green is a key color for DLP and all the other colors build around it. It also seem to be the key to luminance. I may try that and see if it has any effect.

Originally posted by jtirak
Never had a cable box because I never had cable. Why would someone want to connect an outside wire to a TV in 2004? That is so 1950'ish..Always Satellite... AND STB...

So how does the picture signal get from your dish (which I assume is outside your house) to your TV if not by wire?

To answer your question a bit more seriously, cable-based (including fiber) services have throughput that satellite is likely never to match, especially not OUT of the house. As the cost of terrestrial Internet connectivity goes down (exponentially) and Internet speed goes up (enabling HD distribution via IP), the *relative* cost of putting satellites into orbit will increase (even if the absolute cost decreases). Economics suggests that satellite TV isn't likely to ever be significantly more popular (e.g., half of all households) than it is today.

Just to clarify, I'm neither a fan nor foe of satellite TV. If you like it, awesome...some things seem really cool about it (Voom especially). I just don't think it'll ever be more than a minority broadcast medium. And I apologize for going WAY off-topic...I shan't do it again...at least not this week.

Originally posted by cmf


I was kidding but I have never been a fan of cable. Currently all cable still gets their signals from Satellite. My system takes that same feed that the cable head end gets only doesn't fiddle with it. From my 10ft B.U.D. to by TV. with no extra ampliphiers to defile the signal. You may be right about the future and that is exciting. I was not a fan to pizza size dishes but I also caved in and subscribed to VOOM for the HD but because of the compression it does not look as good as I have been used too. Most cable systems still can't handle HD at all and new compression will improve the number of HD but I hope they don't hurt the PQ quality. I am afraid they will.

But we can hope.

Originally posted by jtirak
Why would someone want to connect an outside wire to a TV in 2004?

Because we live someplace that does not have a view of the satellites. Or even if there is a view, we live in an apartment that has no place under our exclusive control where a dish can be mounted.

I have had the Samsung HLN-437W1 for about 2 weeks and I am hating the skin tones. I use the Voom box with the DVI output and a Panasonic RP-91 with a component to VGA adapter (looks much smoother then the component input).

I am interested to see if anyone with this set has had it calibrated and would like to share the results. My factory default settings are as follows:

Temp Warm 1 & 2 (Normal too blue)
R-GAIN 128
G-GAIN 128
B-GAIN 128
R-OFFSET 127
G-OFFSET 125
B-OFFSET 128
PATT_SEL
S_BR(DDP) 255
S_CT(DDP) 100

Gamma 4 (0 takes away all the detail)

After SM changes:

Temp Normal
R-GAIN 136
G-GAIN 128
B-GAIN 120
R-OFFSET 129
G-OFFSET 125
B-OFFSET 126
PATT_SEL
S_BR(DDP) 244
S_CT(DDP) 90

Gamma 4 (0 takes away all the detail)

I've tried increasing the R-Gain and offset and decreasing the B-gain and offset making skin tones more natural, but now there is loss in the green saturation and a tint that makes everyone look like they have a tan.

Any help would be great. ISF for this set is $450...owww!! Did it before, but since there are many QA issues I'm a little scared to make the plunge and then have to do it again later.

One thing you might do is wait until you have about 500-600 hours or so on the set/lamp (can view lamp hours in the SM). At least a lot of people seem to use the sets for a while before making these adjustments...

RE: One thing you might do is wait until you have about 500-600 hours or so on the set/lamp (can view lamp hours in the SM). At least a lot of people seem to use the sets for a while before making these adjustments...

Was hoping to get a good enough picture now to make sure it's the display I wanna keep.

Originally posted by cyberbri
One thing you might do is wait until you have about 500-600 hours or so on the set/lamp (can view lamp hours in the SM). At least a lot of people seem to use the sets for a while before making these adjustments...

I don't think one needs to wait that long. The bulb and electronics should stabilize within 100 hours.

Dean

Just borrowed a X-Rite Color adapter w/ Cinespace 1.1 for my Dell Laptop. Will try to do some work of the VGA input to see if I can get it close for my DVD. If that works then I will post my settings for it.

I have a 4 month old HLN467W. Last week, my wife called me at work and told me that the set was giving off a burning plastic smell. Well, this freaked me out and I told her to immediately turn it off. When I got home. I fired it up and the smell was very obvious. Long story short, I called Samsung, they sent out a technician a few days later and he replaced the bulb (he assumed somehing "foreign" had gotten on the bulb) with a new one.

Previously, I had been tweaking my settings along with Clyde (very similar set-up) and had seen positive results. Now, my TV that had approx. 750 hours on the previous bulb has a new bulb. Should I have expected to see a color difference with the new bulb? If there is a difference, I haven't noticed.

As an aside, I was very pleased with Samsung customer service. They were polite, responded quickly, and even showed my wife how to change the bulb (for future reference).

I just said that because I have read of some people noticing color shifts or something as their bulbs get older, having to change RGB settings in the SM slightly to compensate for the shift. I guess that's what it is - make setting changes early on, but recalibrate later on again.

Originally posted by zefres
I have had the Samsung HLN-437W1 for about 2 weeks and I am hating the skin tones. I use the Voom box with the DVI output and a Panasonic RP-91 with a component to VGA adapter (looks much smoother then the component input).
<snip>
Any help would be great. ISF for this set is $450...owww!! Did it before, but since there are many QA issues I'm a little scared to make the plunge and then have to do it again later.
$450 is waaaay to much to ISF calibrate this TV. The price to calibrate one input should be ~$250. I believe each additional input is ~$125.
I would shop around a bit more.

Originally posted by vlapietra
$450 is waaaay to much to ISF calibrate this TV. The price to calibrate one input should be ~$250. I believe each additional input is ~$125.
I would shop around a bit more.

Agreed. For $450 the tech should be intimate with every detail of the service menu that affects PQ, and really have mastered tweaking it for way more than just color correction. My ISF tech quoted me $175 to do the progressive component input. If the DVI input is done, a somewhat higher charge is reasonable since it requires extra, expensive equipment.

Dean

Does anyone know of an ISF calibrator they could recommend in the Northern Virginia area? I'm going to give self-calibrating a few more tries (I'm going to borrow a friends Video Essentials DVD) but I don't have a DVD player with a DVI output so it will be a bit hard to get that one right.

I'm still seeing a lot of banding/blocking- especially on faces or clothes where you can tell the light is brightest and there is the most glare. I thought it was compression artifacts but then I was replaying some digital photos from my camera on the TV (vie composite) and was seeing the same effect so I know it isn't source compression.

I really want to get the most of the set but with a move and a new baby on the way, I only have so much time to educate myself on "light theory" and the nuances of the service menu and I may have to throw in the towel and pay for calibration. Maybe I can get the Component/Composite/S-Video with the DVD and just get the DVI done professionally...

You can start here:

http://www.milori.com/community/calibrator/default.asp

Originally posted by mercurial
Does anyone know of an ISF calibrator they could recommend in the Northern Virginia area?

The ISF has a website where you can look up trained technicians by geographical area: http://www.imagingscience.com/isf-trained.cfm

Duh! I should have remembered those websites. I think I saw them ages ago. Still, it would be good to have a personal recommendation if anyone has one. I'll give it a try with the VE DVD and we'll see how that goes first.

Originally posted by zefres
Just borrowed a X-Rite Color adapter w/ Cinespace 1.1 for my Dell Laptop. Will try to do some work of the VGA input to see if I can get it close for my DVD. If that works then I will post my settings for it.

I was wondering if you had any luck and what your new settings were?

Originally posted by zefres
Just borrowed a X-Rite Color adapter w/ Cinespace 1.1 for my Dell Laptop. Will try to do some work of the VGA input to see if I can get it close for my DVD. If that works then I will post my settings for it.

I was wondering if you had any luck and what your new settings were?

Can someone tell me what the story is with banding on these TVs?

I have a VGA splitter that I use to send a video signal from my computer to both a 17" Samsung LCD flat-panel TFT monitor next to my La-Z-Boy chair, and also across the room to my 50" HLN5065.

When I play a 3D video game like Homeworld that has outer space scenery with nebulae, etc. I get very smooth, beautiful gradations of color on the LCD monitor, but blatant banding on the HDTV, as if it was in 256 colors. I can look back and forth from one screen to the other and see it clearly.

I have seen the same thing when playing a DVD on my HD-931 over DVI input - the BBC series on the ocean, "Blue Planet" or whatever it is called, the underwater shots show a lot of banding instead of smooth gradations of blue.

But it's not the DVD player or the DVD because like I said, I can watch the exact same signal going to my LCD monitor and my HDTV at the same time, being generated by a video game and not a DVD, and only the HDTV shows banding.

Thanks.

Originally posted by chuft
Can someone tell me what the story is with banding on these TVs?
blatant banding on the HDTV, as if it was in 256 colors.

I may be confusing the issue but I think its 64 colors. 8 bit color space...

DVI and tweaks here do seem to mitigate it some but you wont match the lcd performance.