Has anyone heard about this problem. Ever since I had my light engine replaced I have notice some flickering from the TV. It looks like when you have an old light bulb that is about to die and starts to flicker. It is no that bad and only noticeable on still backgrounds (like a paused movie or the blue no signal screen). I do not think that this is the "rainbows" people talk about b/c rainbow coloring. I've never heard rainbows described like this. I have a felling that it maybe the color wheel, like it is not spinning fast enough. Has anyone seen or heard about this. I'd hate to have to schedule a second light engine replacement.

My bulb flickers when it first comes on, but it goes away in 15-20 seconds.

You can adjust the color wheel delay in the service menu, but I would think that if it is off enough to cause flicker that it would wildly throw off your colors (adjusting color wheel delay can substantially alter the primary colors -- especially red).

By guess is that it is a problem with your bulb. Do you know how many hours are on your set?

My guess would be less then 300. It is a brand new light engine thats was just replaced the week before Christmas. I have regretted replacing the light engine, ever since the colors seem off more and know this flickering. It dosen't happen all the time. It comes and goes with no real pattern. The TV could be on for hours with out doing it and then all of a sudden it starts. I have the TV plugged into a Monster surge protector, I wander if it could be something with that. The only thing is that I never noticed this until after the LE was replaced.

How long have you had the TV? I'm not sure, but replacing the light engine might not include the bulb (I could be wrong).

It does sound like the LE, if you've only started seeing this since it was replaced.

I’ve had the TV since early Sept. It did include replacing the bulb b/c he went into the SM and reset the lamp hours. I guess I’ll be calling Samsung to come and replace the LE again.

Just to check, can you get into the service menu, go to the "DDP1010" menu, and see what the value is for the color wheel delay.

The default should be around 223. My experience suggests that +-10 steps off 223 could create a color wheel delay issue.

Hi guys.

I think I may have discovered an issue with how Samsung supports HD and SD colorspaces and want to confirm if others see this problem. This "green depression" has been an issue of discussion on the DVD forum for a little while. Don't know if this is a big deal or not, but please bear with me:

Equipment needed:
- Avia Guide to HT, test pattern "Color Decoder Check"
- Progressive Scan DVD Player, hooked up via component
- Samsung HLN TV set
- eyes

Procedure:

1) hook up the DVDP to the 480i/p input. Fire up the CDC pattern and look at it through the green avia filter. Note the rough percentage where the background matches a green box (it should be around zero - though it may match somewhere between +10% and -10% - for the purposes of this test, it's okay).

Mentally note the intensity of the green bar, especially the lower portions.

2) hook up the DVDP to a 480p/720p/1080i input. Repeat viewing of the pattern.

Again, note the place (percentage) where the green box meets the background. Again, note the intensity of the green bar.

-------

My results:
1) showed that the green box matched the background at about 0%. This is good.
2) showed that the green box matched the background at about -20%. This is not good; this is "green depression" associated with differences in, and icorrect handling between, HD and SD colorspaces. IOW green is dropped while red and blue are pushed.

Honestly I don't understand the HD/SD colorspace issue particularly well but I feel that my limited knowledge is enough to make me dangerous !

Please let me know what you come up with. Thanks everyone.

Originally posted by HeaTransfer
.....This "green depression" has been an issue of discussion on the DVD forum for a little while.......

How do you get rid of the green color cast on an HLN5065W?

Originally posted by allenn
How do you get rid of the green color cast on an HLN5065W?

By getting a professional ISF calibration!

Originally posted by HeaTransfer

1My results:
1) showed that the green box matched the background at about 0%. This is good.
2) showed that the green box matched the background at about -20%. This is not good; this is "green depression" associated with differences in, and icorrect handling between, HD and SD colorspaces. IOW green is dropped while red and blue are pushed.

Honestly I don't understand the HD/SD colorspace issue particularly well but I feel that my limited knowledge is enough to make me dangerous !

I'm not familiar with the term "green depression" (I assume this means a lack of green as opposed to a green push) but regardless I'm not surprised by what you observed.
The HLN series has different color settings for 480i vs. >=480p component vs DVI. I don't think it has anything to do with SD vs HD color space, just a difference between input settings.

vlapietra, you are correct.

The SD/HD colorspace issue does not affect the DVI connection because the signal is in RGB format. The issue arises with HDMI, and ONLY if the signal is being sent in YCbCr format.

If you are using a component connection there are Service Menu adjustments for the color decoder, but there is no adjustment for a DVI connection. I agree that the color decoding is bad for green. I see -15% on mine. Maybe Samsung does this deliberately to tone down the "flourescent greens" that this display is infamous for.

Another thing to consider: DLP has different primaries to CRT. The Avia filters are designed for CRT colors, so we may never be able to get it right with those filters, in any case.

Gary

--------------------
should i look out for any common problems if they end up replacing most of the internals of the tv? i'll report back on the results of the service call.
---------------------

I had the same done last week. Well, now I have more fan noise, as well as a number of dark gray circles (around a dozen) that show up in dark scenes as well as the top of the screen (when watching really widescreen) and along the left side (when pillars are shown in a 4:3). Looks like dust on the optics? Anyway, having it done again next week (they can't clean the optics - they'll replace the light engine). :confused:

SD Diver

The SD/HD colorspace issue does not affect the DVI connection because the signal is in RGB format. The issue arises with HDMI, and ONLY if the signal is being sent in YCbCr format.

Gary,

Thank you much for your answer! As I said I know enough about colorspace to be dangerous :D

.... I'm using a Sony DVP-NS975V over HDMI to DVI (not ideal, I know)... the body of information on one of the threads indicates that the colorspace issues occur when when uses the player's scaling abilities. Despite this I get green depression no matter what output resolution I use.

Could this be a problem associated with the source signal being (perhaps) fixed at YCbCr ?



If you are using a component connection there are Service Menu adjustments for the color decoder, but there is no adjustment for a DVI connection, and the color decoding does seem to be out of whack.

However, DLP has a different colorspace to CRT. The Avia filters are designed for CRT, so we may never be able to get it right with those filters, in any case.


Wow - this is news to me. Thanks for the information. What is the SM variable to change colorspace?

Also, as noted above I can get the 480i/p bars to match (no colorspace issues) - doesn't this indicate that the filters are reasonably accurate?

Thanks!

Originally posted by HeaTransfer
Could this be a problem associated with the source signal being (perhaps) fixed at YCbCr ?
No. When you use an HDMI-to-DVI adapter for your TV, the player has to switch to RGB output. I don't know if the Sony has RGB output problems as well - you'll have to ask on the Sony threads.

However, I do know that my HLN DLPTV depresses the greens on DVI. I see the same issue with a different DVI player. Its a 10-15% depression that does not seem to impact the picture quality at all. It may be an intentional remedy for the "flourescent greens" that this TV is known for. In fact, I decided to set up my component input the same way, and I was much happier with the results. (I still calibrate grayscale correctly to D65).

What is the SM variable to change colorspace?
Woah! You're not changing colorspace, you're adjusting the color decoder... two completely different things. Colorspace cannot be changed on the HLN.

To adjust the color decoder on component:
Display the Avia Color Decoder Check Pattern.
Using the green filter, adjust SAT in the FLI2300 menu to get green right (I set -10%). Going too high with SAT can cause ghastly bleeding in the color bars patterns.
Using the blue filter, adjust SATCB_M in the VPC3230 menu to get blue right.
Using the red filter, adjust SATCR_M in the VPC3230 menu to get red right.
You'll need to go back and forth a few times to check and make adjustments.

Also, as noted above I can get the 480i/p bars to match (no color decoder issues) - doesn't this indicate that the filters are reasonably accurate?
Maybe accurate enough to get by, but is the "green depression" really a depression, or is it the filter????? I don't know. Flesh-tones are spot-on WITH the "green depression" and grass looks more natural. Without the depression, flesh-tones tend toward green.

Gary

GSB,

Thanks for your input.

I didn't know that the color decoder was adjustable. Cute. Pity it isn't available (?) for DVI. Do you know if these adjustments are like the other adjustments (ie, cascading effect from antenna on down)?


Maybe accurate enough to get by, but is the "green depression" really a depression, or is it the filter????? I don't know. Flesh-tones are spot-on WITH the "green depression" and grass looks more natural. Without the depression, flesh-tones tend toward green.

I think it's an actual depression. Try my original test - component into the 480i/p input using the Avia CDC pattern gives no depression, but once I use either the 480p/720p/1080i component inputs or the DVI input I get instant depression.

I also don't understand how the filter can be "made" for CRT vs a bulb - after all, light is light....

Flipping between 480i/p component and DVI makes for a difficult choice. Flesh tones don't look "off" over DVI but they definitely look different. DVI is such a huge PQ improvement otherwise though that it's an easy choice...

Just guess that getting something closer to "reference" isn't gonna happen. Time to enjoy more and worry less :)

Originally posted by HeaTransfer
I didn't know that the color decoder was adjustable. Cute. Pity it isn't available (?) for DVI. Do you know if these adjustments are like the other adjustments (ie, cascading effect from antenna on down)? Not available for DVI, but you can still adjust overall saturation in the User Menu. I don't know about the cascading effect.

I think it's an actual depression. Try my original test - component into the 480i/p input using the Avia CDC pattern gives no depression, but once I use either the 480p/720p/1080i component inputs or the DVI input I get instant depression. Maybe so... or is 480i pushing green and the Avia filter makes it look OK?!

I also don't understand how the filter can be "made" for CRT vs a bulb - after all, light is light... Green CRT phosphors are a different shade and intensity to the greens in other display technologies. DLP produces green with a filter on the colorwheel.

DVI is such a huge PQ improvement otherwise though that it's an easy choice...

Just guess that getting something closer to "reference" isn't gonna happen. Time to enjoy more and worry less :) Exactly!

Gary

I have a HLN4365W, and was wondering about my gamma setting. I had it on 1, although I don't know if it came like that or started off at 4.

I had looked on this thread before, but I know that some sets/models/sizes have different "ideal" gamma settings. So I was playing around tweaking my set a little more last night, for lack of time to actually watch a movie, and decided to try changing the gamma setting.

I was viewing through my HTPC over DVI, using the Phillips Pattern Generator for greyscale patterns. I changed it from 1 to the other settings, and found that a Gamma of 0 gave better greys. However, the 5% grey went black, so I adjusted this by boosting the three color offsets a few notches each to get some noise in the 5% grey section, and made sure I didn't introduce any unwanted color pushes at any grey % (one notch too far can put blue/purple at 80% & 85%, for example). So I finished up there, backed out of the Service Menu, set my Dynamic (reverted) setting back to Custom (Contrast (white) - 100, Brightness (black) - 50, Sharpness - 35, Color - 45~50), checked the color temp settings, and popped in Finding Nemo, known for banding and macroblocking issues, which I saw/tested just last week as well.

With Finding Nemo, much of my banding issues disappeared, and were only slightly noticeable if I really looked for them. My main scene was at about 30 seconds into the film(?), before the barracuda. There is the anemone near the middle, with water to the upper right. Before there was noticeable banding and macroblocking. But last night, most was gone and the improvement was very noticeable.

So if you have the knowledge/tools, and/or can find the proper Gamma setting by reading this thread or somewhere else, you can definitely, definitely, get a noticeable PQ improvement by getting the gamma setting correct.

I have the 4365W set and its factory gamma setting is 4. Many folks have said that it calibrates better on 0. My naked eye tells me 0 is like looking at it through sunglasses. My preference is for a bright picture so I've stuck with 4, although I did try 0 for awhile.

Have you adjusted any of the other settings (contrast/white level, brightness/black level)?

If the gamma should be at 0, you can then adjust the contrast up/down to make the upper end of the spectrum brighter/dimmer. My main observation when looking at the greyscales and trying different gammas was that between settings of 0 and 1, 0 gave a better/smoother gradation through the lower end of the spectrum.

Originally posted by cyberbri
Have you adjusted any of the other settings (contrast/white level, brightness/black level)?

If the gamma should be at 0, you can then adjust the contrast up/down to make the upper end of the spectrum brighter/dimmer. My main observation when looking at the greyscales and trying different gammas was that between settings of 0 and 1, 0 gave a better/smoother gradation through the lower end of the spectrum.

Do you mean through the user menu? There doesn't seem to be a lot of play in that as standard contrast is 90 and too much brightness can really wash things out. If you really want brightness try the gamma of 3...now that's really ugly..but bright.

I was told (maybe incorrectly) that you can't increase contrast/brightness in the user menu 'cause it'll throw off the 6500 color temp we strive to achieve. Did you have to adjust anything in the UM other than Gamma and color offsets/gains?

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I have the 4365W set and its factory gamma setting is 4. Many folks have said that it calibrates better on 0. My naked eye tells me 0 is like looking at it through sunglasses. My preference is for a bright picture so I've stuck with 4, although I did try 0 for awhile.
According to the HLN service manual located here http://evstar.eatsleepcode.ca/HLN_Manual/ the Gamma for for TV's produced after July, 2002 should be 1. Before that date it should be 4 (page 5-13). The service manual is for the HLN437/HLN537 and was printed June 2003.

When I had my set calibrated the tech flipped back and forth between 0 and 1 a few times before finally settling on 0. I don't believe I've read a post about an HLN being ISF calibrated that didn't end up using gamma 0.

The User Menu doesn't have the gamma level setting. You have to get into the Service Menu for that. Changing the Gamma setting will affect all of the inputs as well.

And virtually no TV comes from the factory properly calibrated/adjusted. They're designed to look bright, or "pop", on brightly lit showroom floors so people will buy the TV based on that picture. That's why you can look down a row of TVs and they all look different. Properly calibrated, the pictures on all of them should look virtually the same.


Also, in the User Menu, you can't go over 100 for Contrast (as in Dynamic mode). This value is set by the setting in the Service Menu - that value determines what "100" is in the User Menu. And when you adjust the Brightness (black level) in the Service Menu, that determines what "50" is in the User Menu. This is because you are viewing the Service Menu through Dynamic picture settings, which has Contrast at 100, and Brightness at 50. If you adjust brightness down and find the setting/value where noise appears/disappears from pure black areas, that's where it should be. If you go too far below that, non-pure-black areas (shadows) will start to lose detail. Too far above, and black becomes dark grey.

To get 6500K, you have to go into the Service Menu and adjust the color (red, green, blue) gain and offset balances, as well as the gamma, brightness (black level) and contrast (white level). "Contrast" isn't how much contrast there is - it's just how bright the whites are - you can go into the Service Menu and crank up the Contrast, and it will turn not only pure white "white," but the whole upper spectrum of greys as well. For Brightness (black level), even in the regular User Menu, you can turn it down, and all of the darker areas blend in with the black. For greyscale, you strive to get black blacks, white whites, and proper amount of light at each step inbetween (5%, 45%, 50%, 90%, etc.). If these steps, the gradation, isn't correct, you will get banding and other issues. I'm not sure, but I think even skin tones on SD cable (over composite) looked better to my eyes last night, as opposed to the somewhat floating clay-looking textures on some channels. I'll have to check again on that aspect, but I think a Gamma of 0 really did a lot to improve my PQ, more than just fixing banding.

Originally posted by vlapietra
According to the HLN service manual located here http://evstar.eatsleepcode.ca/HLN_Manual/ the Gamma for for TV's produced after July, 2002 should be 1. Before that date it should be 4 (page 5-13). The service manual is for the HLN437/HLN537 and was printed June 2003.

When I had my set calibrated the tech flipped back and forth between 0 and 1 a few times before finally settling on 0. I don't believe I've read a post about an HLN being ISF calibrated that didn't end up using gamma 0.

My service menu shows that mine was built in 2003 and definitely the gamma was also set to 4. This is the first I've heard of setting it at 1. Seems to me that the controversy was usually 4 vs 0.

I agree most calibrations I've read about prefer 0.

Originally posted by cyberbri

And virtually no TV comes from the factory properly calibrated/adjusted. They're designed to look bright, or "pop", on brightly lit showroom floors so people will buy the TV based on that picture. That's why you can look down a row of TVs and they all look different. Properly calibrated, the pictures on all of them should look virtually the same.


Also, in the User Menu, you can't go over 100 for Contrast (as in Dynamic mode). This value is set by the setting in the Service Menu - that value determines what "100" is in the User Menu. And when you adjust the Brightness (black level) in the Service Menu, that determines what "50" is in the User Menu. This is because you are viewing the Service Menu through Dynamic picture settings, which has Contrast at 100, and Brightness at 50. If you adjust brightness down and find the setting/value where noise appears/disappears from pure black areas, that's where it should be. If you go too far below that, non-pure-black areas (shadows) will start to lose detail. Too far above, and black becomes dark grey.

To get 6500K, you have to go into the Service Menu and adjust the color (red, green, blue) gain and offset balances, as well as the gamma, brightness (black level) and contrast (white level). "Contrast" isn't how much contrast there is - it's just how bright the whites are - you can go into the Service Menu and crank up the Contrast, and it will turn not only pure white "white," but the whole upper spectrum of greys as well. For Brightness (black level), even in the regular User Menu, you can turn it down, and all of the darker areas blend in with the black. For greyscale, you strive to get black blacks, white whites, and proper amount of light at each step inbetween (5%, 45%, 50%, 90%, etc.). If these steps, the gradation, isn't correct, you will get banding and other issues. I'm not sure, but I think even skin tones on SD cable (over composite) looked better to my eyes last night, as opposed to the somewhat floating clay-looking textures on some channels. I'll have to check again on that aspect, but I think a Gamma of 0 really did a lot to improve my PQ, more than just fixing banding.

They definitely don't come calibrated and the reason why is a subject in and of itself. I don't know that I buy the pop theory although I do think that's what the dynamic setting is meant to achieve. But what's the sense in calibrating something to a user menu setting of 100? Wouldn't it make more sense if it defaulted to a setting of about 50 (contrast) rather than 100 as it does now in dynamic? The fact it defaults to dynamic has never made sense to me regardless of whether you want to achieve a pop picture or not. I would think you'd want the calibration to be set at median values in the UM so one can compensate for variations between different broadcasts and channels.

The SM contrast and bright adjustments: Are they in the DNie area or another?

They're in the DNIe section, bottom left (on my HLN4365W).

I also agree that it would be nice to have a lower default Dyamic setting, so you could go above it for certain sources. But when I have a "dark" picture, like playing a dark game during the day with lots of ambient light, I increase brightness to get more shadow detail. I can't imagine having to boost the contrast (white level) on anything, except maybe really bad tape or VCD transfers or something.

I guess you could find the correct Contrast value in the SM, say 120 or so, and go 10-15 notches above that, then try backing down on the contrast in the User Menu to see if you can get the same picture. (I think the User Menu steps are probably bigger than the SM ones, as I can dramatically reduce the white/light level in a picture by going from 100 to 80-85 in the user menu, but I don't think it's that much of a change with 15-20 notches in the SM).



And maybe "pop" isn't a good word for that, but they just have to look good on the floor for the less-than-serious buyer who goes in and bases purchases (only) off of how good they look in the store and doesn't know how slightly different picture settings can change the look of a TV so dramatically.

For those of you who post often to this thread with your SM tweaks & settings would you mind posting your exact TV model (hlm, w or w1), firmware version, the input you're testing on and the device (DVD, HTPC, HDSTB, etc.) you're using for the tweaking? Its been very beneficial for me to learn from the expertise gained through the hours of tweaking that people like Clyde Washburn & Cyberbri have already spent instead of recreating the wheel. However, its not completely relevent if I'm using a different TV model with updated firmware on a different input and device.

I have a HLN50W1 with the 10/17 firmware. I also prefer gamma 0 but only after I made some adjustments in the SM to adjust for brightness & contrast. I'm still having some problems getting the colors right which is the main reason for me asking for setup comparisons so I can try some of yours. I use a progressive DVD player through component & an HTPC through zoomplayer +ffdshow (fix crush issue) on DVI for my tests with the THX test patterns from Monsters Inc. I tried using some of the calibrating patterns that Cyberi and others have posted links to for the colors but I haven't had much luck getting rid of the banding on the blue patterns (and to a lesser extent the red) since I don't have a great way of adjusting the gains/offsets other than just trying to eyeball the patterns.

Thanks again for all your work and help. I don't post often but I do spend a lot of time reading and tweaking.

Dave

EDIT - Updating settings, see post a few messages down.

Rancyd,

Sure thing. I have a HLN4365W, and I'll check the firmware tonight if I get a chance. My main input is my DVI port from my HTPC. I think I have 240 for brightness and 120 for contrast (somehwere around there) for that input, with something like this for the colors:
Red Gain - 105
Green Gain - 105
Blue Gain - 95
Red Offset - 140
Green Offset - 134
Blue Offset - 136
Brightness - 240
Contrast - 130
(I raised all the offsets from the mid 120s to compensate for the change of gamma setting to give me back some low-level light at 5% grey)

I used to have hi-def cable through component 3, but we moved to an area without hi-def (2 miles away!), so I'm waiting for them to finish the rebuild. So currently I'm on a regular digital box over composite. My other component inputs are for XBox & PS2. I don't do much with those except adjust the brightness in the User Menu. I don't have much of a way to test those inputs anyway.

So I mainly only tweak the DVI port settings. I've heard about the cascading settings, so I don't want to change something on the composite and mess up settings on the other settings. If I need to change anything on the other inputs (usually brightness/black level or color saturation), I do it with the User Menu.



But after using the Phillips Pattern Generator and www.displaycalibration.com for my HTPC/DVI, I was able to get the brightness/contrast right in the SM for that port, and I eliminated my need for Levels adjustments within ffdshow, which in and of itself can cause banding or other issues. I think there may also be certain combinations of codecs/resize algorithms/resize resolutions, etc. that cause issues.

I went from 2.5x DVD reso resize, to 1920x1080, to 1760x1600. At this last resolution, I got funny patterns in dark areas - noise was forming vertical lines. So I reduced it to 1680x1520 and it went away. So I decided to try a bigger resize - 2000x1600, and it works fine. I'm using the August 02 version (Andy's), with Lanscoz 4 at 1.00 Luma Sharpen (need more sharpen at higher res to get same effect). And now that I have that all set up, as soon as we get the DSL modem for our new place, I'll be downloading Avisynth scripts and trying the LimitedSharpen tool with resize to spend (my wife would say waste) even more time getting more out of my picture. Haha. Supposedly this sharpening algorithm sharpens more and gives less ringing, although it requires a lot of processing power. Here's the link if you're interested:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=469464


Then by changing the gamma, I just tweaked the color offsets (low level) to get my 5% black back, and I was good to go with better grayscale gradation and greatly-reduced banding. I don't know if my color settings are perfect - sometimes I can change them and not see any difference - but I use the greyscale patterns to make sure I don't have red/purple/green/blue, etc. tints in any of the greyscale steps. If certain steps are too close or too far, the color gradation in water like in Finding Nemo will band into strips.

For example, last night when I changed the gamma and was working on the color settings in DNIe, going one notch more on the blue offset turned a couple of higher greyscale bars slightly blue/purple. Going back down a notch made it go back to normal. Sometimes if there is a slight push through the whole greyscale bar, I can use the color temp in the User Menu to fix it. But that's when I get back out of the SM and see it, and decide I don't feeling like going back and retweaking the color settings.

I doubt my color settings are "perfect", but I don't have any weird colors, and everything looks natural to me. Plus, by changing the gamma setting, I've gotten rid of the banding (in Finding Nemo at least) almost completely. I noticed the New Line Cinema(?) logo at the beginning of LOTR, etc. no longer shows bands in the blue light, either, where it used to look really bad.

Originally posted by cyberbri
I'm not sure, but I think even skin tones on SD cable (over composite) looked better to my eyes last night, as opposed to the somewhat floating clay-looking textures on some channels. I'll have to check again on that aspect, but I think a Gamma of 0 really did a lot to improve my PQ, more than just fixing banding.
During the life of this thread most people have found that just going from Gamma 4 to 0 did more to improve PQ than any other single change. As you noticed it is especially important to eliminate the clay-face effect.
IMO, if someone is not satisfied with PQ and decides to try SM adjustments, setting Gamma to 0 should always be the first step. I would expect that for a lot of them, that might be the only SM change they have to make at all.

Okay, here is my firmware version:
T-B3K6101-309, Sept. 29, 2003


And for my DVI, HTPC port, these are my main settings:
Red Gain - 105
Green Gain - 105
Blue Gain - 95
Red Offset - 140
Green Offset - 134
Blue Offset - 136
Brightness - 240
Contrast - 130

Again, these aren't necessarily "accurate". They're more "steaming rat" going from test patterns, etc. My Brightness and Contrast values are where they should be though, I'm certain. That's the easiest thing to set with test patterns. The color settings are fairly accurate though - at least I don't have any noticeable pushes or depressions, and greyscale patterns look grey, not tinted.

FWIW, and YMMV

Originally posted by cyberbri
I went from 2.5x DVD reso resize, to 1920x1080, to 1760x1600. At this last resolution, I got funny patterns in dark areas - noise was forming vertical lines. So I reduced it to 1680x1520 and it went away. So I decided to try a bigger resize - 2000x1600, and it works fine. I'm using the August 02 version (Andy's), with Lanscoz 4 at 1.00 Luma Sharpen (need more sharpen at higher res to get same effect). And now that I have that all set up, as soon as we get the DSL modem for our new place, I'll be downloading Avisynth scripts and trying the LimitedSharpen tool with resize to spend (my wife would say waste) even more time getting more out of my picture. Haha. Supposedly this sharpening algorithm sharpens more and gives less ringing, although it requires a lot of processing power. Here's the link if you're interested:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=469464



Well, I tried LimitedSharpen last night. It works, although I don't like having so much sharpening before resize - I like sharpening afterwards, as it doesn't introduce a lot of the bad effects. Even with lower values, it took a lot of CPU to run, meaning I couldn't resize to higher values either.

So I'm sticking with my 2000x1600 resize with Lanscoz 4, and Luma Sharpen 1.00 (effect of sharpening is less prominent, but cleaner, because the resize value is so high). But I was also able to download the newest version of DScaler 5, and am going to try that for a while. I can't put my finger on it, but I think it had a slight edge over the WinDVD6 codec I had been using - at least with my tests on Star Wars Ep 5. I'm also outputting YV12 straight from it, eliminating the need to run Noise at 1 to force the YUY2->YV12 conversion. So DScaler 5 -> Resize+Sharpen -> Output -> less is more.


UPDATE: Tonight, I read this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494606
And decided to give VMR9 a try, as it passes blacker-than-black, etc. So I did, and lowered my brightness from 50 to 40 in my User Menu to compensate (checking test patterns). This means that I'm no longer crushing blacks/whites with Overlay, and instead passing all of the information (1-15 and 236-255) through to the TV with VMR, without squishing the spectrum overall, and all I have to do to make sure the black (16) is black is turn the brightness down. --> By doing so, I get much better shadow detail, banding virtually gone, better gradations, etc. I thought it looked good before, but now it looks even better.

And as far as the speed issues go, I went from a 2000x1600 resize to 1760x1520, in Lanscoz 4 with .90 Luma sharp. This is coming from DScaler 5, outputting in YV12 straight to resize only. In one test, it was actually faster (showed no tearing) when I output in YUY2 from ffdshow, so I'm doing that as well.



Another update:

I was previously using Overlay, since VMR seemed to A) desaturate and wash out the picture, and B) CPU/speed issues.

But I read this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=494606 and decided to change to VMR to pass Blacker-than-black, and just turn down the brightness setting on my TV to compensate.This means that I'm not crushing blacks/whites with Overlay, passing all of the information (1-15 and 236-255) through to the TV, without squishing the spectrum overall, and all I have to do to make sure the black (16) is black is turn the brightness down. --> By doing so, I get much better shadow detail, banding virtually gone, better gradations, etc.

And as far as the speed issues go, I went from a 2000x1600 resize to 1760x1520, in Lanscoz 4 with .90 Luma sharp. This is coming from DScaler 5, outputting in YV12 straight to resize only. In one test, it was actually faster (showed no tearing) when I output in YUY2 from ffdshow, so I'm doing that as well.

So I'm very happy about that, along with the fact that Comcast just got HD in my area today (had it at the last residence until end of December, moved, waiting for the rebuild). And they even just added Fox to the HD lineup! So I'm going to go pick up an HD PVR ($10 a month rental, includes HD channel package). I'm very excited about this, to say the least. Sorry for going OT there, but I'm very excited to get back to HD.

For what its worth, here is are my settings based on a calibration to D65 using the equipment listed in my signature (my bulb has about 700 hours on it)

R_GAIN 140
G_GAIN 116
B_GAIN 92
R_OFFSET 134
G_OFFSET 134
B_OFFSET 133

Other than the red gain and red offset settings, they are somewhat close to what cyberbri came up with. Your mileage will certainly vary, but it at least gives you some settings to experiement with.

As is common with must bulb projectors, red drops off at higher IREs when contrast is high.

Calling all you wizards of the DLP,

While auditioning a new DVI player, I noticed the most terrible dose of edge enhancement I have ever seen in my life, so I popped in the Avia Sharpness pattern and there it was - as UGLY as sin! My HLN has been properly calibrated to the new player (gamma at 0, etc). Sharpness has been set to 0 (on the player too).

I am aware that the DNIe circuit introduces edge enhancement, so I tried to turn it off. Evidentally, DNIe cannot be turned off on the DVI input, so I hunted the service menu for a way to turn it off or reduce the halos somehow, all to no avail.

Now, I know that the player may be responsible for SOME of it, but I also see the edge enhancement with a properly-calibrated component input, just to a lesser degree. The CNET reviews of the HLN and the HLPxx85 complained of the same thing. Anyone found a way to reduce this EE?

Gary

Kevin I PM'd you.

JTMav

Gary,
I have to think that the EE you are seeing is being introduced either by DNIe or by the DVD player. I have 3 different DVD sources hooked up to my HLN (DVI, Component and VGA via a HTPC) and I don't see any EE on the DVE sharpness patterns on any of them. (I looked very closley for it on the VGA input, b/c I wanted to make sure my HTPC resizing didn't introduce any).

I don't remember exactly, but I don't think DNIe is active on the DVI input. Isn't it always grayed out? (along with DNR??). Try switching to a component input and turn off DNIe. Then check the DNIe setting on DVI again. It should be off.

If something's greyed out in the UM, it may be ON and you can't turn it off. I think that may be the case, as otherwise there would be no DNIe settings for the DVI input in the Service Menu. If you look, it will be either greyed to ON or OFF.


As far as the ringing goes, there may be a DVD player picture or sharpness setting coming into play. Make sure all the audio and video enhancements within the DVD player are turned off.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I know for sure that my DVD player is adding sharpness, but the HLN seems to make it worse.

DNIe was ON, but grayed out, so, as Vinny suggested, I went to component, turned it OFF and returned to DVI. It was still grayed out, but turned OFF this time. Unfortunately it made no difference to the halos in the Avia sharpness pattern. Maybe I'll have to try another player.

Incidentally, I see some ringing in the Avia sharpness pattern when I connect my PC (equipped with an ATI Radeon 9500) to the HLN or to my DVI LCD monitor.

Vinny, what DVI player are you using?

cyberbri, what's your DVI source? Is that a Panasonic S97 in you setup? And an HTPC? Do you really see no ringing at all?

Gary

Why does my HLN437w look grainy after a repair?

Because it was not repaired well.

Great...

This piece of **** looks worse than my old TV.

Originally posted by duke1111
Why does my HLN437w look grainy after a repair? Not necessarily a bad repair. If new boards, or a new light engine was installed, the TV needs to be recalibrated to compensate for the changes. The service menu and user menu defaults will likely have been reset, or even altered. I've had 4 tech visits so far, and I've had to recal each time, because the changes were quite significant.

The biggest improvements come from setting gamma to 0 (or selecting Cinema mode), tweaking contrast, brightness and color saturation correctly, and turning off the DNIe and NR circuits. If a new light engine or lamp was installed, give it a good few hours of operation before you do any further evaluation (a new lamp should typically be run in for 100+hrs before an ISF calibration). Try those things before panicing.

Gary

These guys claim that this doesn't do anything. What else could be the problem? The picture doesn't even look HD anymore and the SD is not even close to watchable.

"
The biggest improvements come from setting gamma to 0 (or selecting Cinema mode), tweaking contrast, brightness and color saturation correctly, and turning off the DNIe and NR circuits. If a new light engine or lamp was installed, give it a good few hours of operation before you do any further evaluation (a new lamp should typically be run in for 100+hrs before an ISF calibration). Try those things before panicing. "

Now that the guys left I would like to try this myself and I can't figure out how to get to these settings. Please help.

Hello,

I was wondering what changes have been made to the light engine for my hln5065w from when it was new 2 years ago?


it looks like i will be getting a new one installed soon as mine is bad. I believe it contains the color wheel, the bulb and a few other compontnts.

I would think there must have been some upgrades thru the years.

thanks for any info you can provide

Originally posted by GSB
Vinny, what DVI player are you using?
I'm using a Bravo D1. Lousy loader and all :)
I'm going to have to do some A-B comparisons testing that greyed out DNIe setting, and the DNIe on/off in the SM. I just assumed grayed out meant off.

duke1111:

You need to provide a little more information.

What inputs look bad (component interlaced or component progressive, DVI, s-video, etc.)? What source materials are you using (progressive scan DVD or interlaced DVD, HDTV, VHS, SDTV, etc.)? What setting are you on (Dynamic, Standard, Movie, etc.)?

This information will help us give you better advice.

Originally posted by GeneticDrift
Hello,

I was wondering what changes have been made to the light engine for my hln5065w from when it was new 2 years ago?


it looks like i will be getting a new one installed soon as mine is bad. I believe it contains the color wheel, the bulb and a few other compontnts.

I would think there must have been some upgrades thru the years.

thanks for any info you can provide

On my HLN5065W, the color wheel went north after 13 mos., and Samsung sent a service tech to change the color wheel and main and av boards. The new firmware date is 4/2004.

On my HLN5065W, the color wheel went north after 13 mos., and Samsung sent a service tech to change the color wheel and main and av boards. The new firmware date is 4/2004.

When my color wheel failed, the tech only replaced the color wheel. Why was your main and av boards replaced?

My HLN4365 seems to have lost some of its punch and I have been in the service menu and adjusted. I have had both the ballast and bulb replaced as well. Seems like the picture looks flat and doesn't have the sharpness or the punch it once had. I have the CT contrast up to 142 and still lacks any punch. Also changed gamma to 0 and does show more detail. Why turn DNIE and DNR off? I am thinking of getting an ISF but wondered if anything else could be wrong with the set that I should call Samnsugn. It is version 309 firmware.

I shoudl add that I am using component 2 with VOOM but DVI shows the same kind of thing when I use that. have had the STB replaced 4 times .

"What inputs look bad (component interlaced or component progressive, DVI, s-video, etc.)? What source materials are you using (progressive scan DVD or interlaced DVD, HDTV, VHS, SDTV, etc.)? What setting are you on (Dynamic, Standard, Movie, etc.)?"

Right now my cable box is plugged into to component 3. My box and TV had great picture on this until the repairmen came and did their thing. HDTV is through Comcast's box. tThe setting right now are on CUSTOM.

Thanks for trying to help. This is all very frustrating.

Originally posted by duke1111
I can't figure out how to get to these settings. Please help. I'm not sure that you are asking in the right place. The changes we recommend here, lead to the most accurate (film-like) picture, without added processing artifacts. So the picture will be a little darker and softer than the TORCH MODE vibrancy you see in the store. Is that what you want?

First of all, make sure your connections and setup are OK. Then, here are the simplest menu changes you can make to improve the picture:

In the User Menu, select "Movie" mode and "Warm2" first. Turn OFF DNIe (if available) and DNR. Now select "Adjust" and set "Sharpness" to 0. Display a picture with black bars at the sides or top/bottom. Sit very close to the screen and adjust "Brightness" until the dithering (green speckles) JUST disappear. If you had a new light engine installed, it may be necessary to adjust contrast, but you need a decent grayscale test-pattern to get it right. Adjust "Color" for best skin tones - not too much red. You can play with all the settings until you find what looks best to your eyes (and the family's eyes).

When you exit the "Adjust" menu, you will notice that "Custom" mode is selected. Leave it there. It may take a while to get used to the new look, but it will be more accurate. You'll have to do these adjustments for each input type (antenna, component, DVI, etc).

HOWEVER, if there is truly something WRONG with the picture, you'll have to call Samsung. I don't know what kind of repairs you've had done.

Gary

Originally posted by GeneticDrift
I was wondering what changes have been made to the light engine for my hln5065w from when it was new 2 years ago? Color wheel bearings (perhaps) a new bulb/ballast and MAYBE a coated lens. The replacement parts are evidently refurbished. Its luck of the draw.

Gary

Originally posted by jtirak
My HLN4365 seems to have lost some of its punch and I have been in the service menu and adjusted. Its hard to comment, without seeing it. The only thing that could FADE is the bulb.

Also changed gamma to 0 and does show more detail. Why turn DNIE and DNR off? I am thinking of getting an ISF. Gamma 0 is most detailed and accurate, but it IS darker, with less "punch". Have you adjusted brightness and contrast correctly with DVE/Avia test patterns? Also refer to my reply to duke1111 on the DNIe/DNR. An ISF cal is the best thing (if the TV is working correctly, of course).

Gary

Originally posted by GSB
Its hard to comment, without seeing it. The only thing that could FADE is the bulb.

Gamma 0 is most detailed and accurate, but it IS darker, with less "punch". Have you adjusted brightness and contrast correctly with DVE/Avia test patterns? Also refer to my reply to duke1111 on the DNIe/DNR. An ISF cal is the best thing (if the TV is working correctly, of course).

Gary

As I mentioned the Bulb and ballast were just replaced with just about 100 hours on it. I have used DVE test patterns to adjust. Probably will have an ISF done.

I was also wondering if cleaning the bulb or the lens periodically helps? Could fine dust on the lens cut down punch? Or I could also use Gamma 1.

Originally posted by jtirak
As I mentioned the Bulb and ballast were just replaced with just about 100 hours on it. I have used DVE test patterns to adjust. Probably will have an ISF done.

I was also wondering if cleaning the bulb or the lens periodically helps? Could fine dust on the lens cut down punch? Or I could also use Gamma 1. Dust on the lamp will BURN itself off. Dust on the lens causes smokey-looking gray spots (1-2" dia) on the screen when displaying black. Cleaning can remedy that problem, but won't solve the issue you're describing.

Yes, you can try Gamma 1. Its not quite as accurate, but it might be more to your liking. In fact, why not temporarily set gamma back to 4 (default) to see if that has the punch that you remember or prefer? If you really do prefer it... who cares if its not as accurate? Remember though, that to make a fair comparison at each gamma setting, you need to recalibrate brightness and contrast, and once you've picked a setting, do the grayscale too.

Before you call the ISF, have you tried k2ue's method (somewhere in this thread) to calibrate the grayscale while maximizing contrast ratio to the Red output? That idea of his, made ALL the difference to my set. I now leave contrast at 100 (in the User Menu) for a BRILLIANT picture that's also very accurate. If you like, I'll summarize his method again. My set has been repaired so many times, that I've had to do my own calibrations again and again. I use a D65 reference lamp and Avia. Grayscale is close enough to 6500K, and the results are fantastic.

Gary

This has been posted in other threads several months ago but I thought I would bring it up since people seem to be following this thread more closely than the old ones. I found a thread that suggested using a 1248x702 resolution to eliminate overscan while keep 1x1 mapping. The key to making it work is to set your display to *normal* aspect instead of either TV wide or Expand (W1 models really need to use this at 1280x720 as it makes a world of difference over TV wide). Since the TV doesn't read the resolution as a 720P timing you don't need to do a lot of unnecessary tweaks in PS and its also why you *must* use normal. If you use the other two options it just squishes the screen giving you a horrible picture. I now get maybe 0.5% overscan all around after positioning the screen to center it in the SM. Its a thing of beauty not having to explain to my wife why she has to guess where the "x" is to close a program :D I watched a movie through ZP/FFdshow last night and had no problems - only a beautiful picture. Here are the exact timings for those of you that are interested:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1248x702=1248,64,128,176,702,1,3,21,70500,2304

Generic timing details for 1248x702:
HFP=64 HSW=128 HBP=176 kHz=44 VFP=1 VSW=3 VBP=21 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1248x702" 70.500 1248 1312 1440 1616 702 703 706 727 +hsync +vsync

I use DVI through a Radeon 9600XT card with catylyst drivers that are about a month old. I didn't try it through my VGA connection and if you have a Nvidia card you should be able to use the new driver release with the "centered" method that cyberbri has decscribed instead of having to do this. Good luck and happy tweaking.

Dave

Originally posted by Rancyd
Good luck and happy tweaking. Thanks for sharing, Dave. I use an ATI Radeon 9500 over DVI. I'll try this sometime.

Gary

Originally posted by GSB

cyberbri, what's your DVI source? Is that a Panasonic S97 in you setup? And an HTPC? Do you really see no ringing at all?

Gary


I have a HTPC over DVI connected to my Samsung HLN4365W.

Originally posted by cyberbri
I have a HTPC over DVI connected to my Samsung HLN4365W. So cyberbri, using the DVE/Avia sharpness pattern, do you see any edge enhancement at all with this setup?

My ATI Radeon 9500 (with ATI DVD decoder) does show a fairly significant amount of EE over DVI to my HLN437W. Not half as bad as my DVD player though.

Gary

Actually, I don't have either... Sorry.

But with test pattern software, I get perfect single-pixel line resolution, so if there were any extra EE being introduced on my setup, it would be from the decoder/ffdshow settings. But I haven't noticed any bad EE at all, at least nothing that's not there in the actual DVD.

Originally posted by cyberbri
But with test pattern software, I get perfect single-pixel line resolution, so if there were any extra EE being introduced on my setup, it would be from the decoder/ffdshow settings. But I haven't noticed any bad EE at all, at least nothing that's not there in the actual DVD. Good thinking.

With Windows, and test pattern software, I also get perfect single-pixel resolution with no EE. So it must be my DVD decoder at fault then.

Gary

Originally posted by GSB

If you like, I'll summarize his method again.
Gary

Yes I would or can you refer me to the post#. I would appreciate that. Thanks Gary

Note that we are aiming for film-like accuracy here, with smooth, yet highly detailed images. The picture will not scream with TORCH-MODE vibrancy, boosted gamma, artificial sharpening, and over-saturated colors (all of which look unnatural, and add artifacts to the image).

An ISF calibration is, of course the best way to get everything spot-on. But if you want to try this yourself, you need to use Avia or DVE test-patterns, and preferably a colorimeter, otherwise a D65 reference lamp.

IMPORTANT: If you've had a colorwheel or light-engine replaced, make sure the colorwheel's DELAY value is set correctly first (the newer colorwheels require a different setting to the original one). It appears that the service agents are not always setting DELAY correctly. This setting controls the timing between the mirrors on the DMD chip, and the color segments on the colorwheel. Make sure you read this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6509528&&#post6509528) and the 5 subsequent posts about color-wheel delay.

Please note that the credit goes to k2ue for the comments in orange and for his method of maximizing contrast ratio to the Red output. Red is the color in shortest supply on the Samsung DLP. This method will squeeze out every last bit of contrast that your set can give, while remaining D65 accurate all the way to 100% white. The results are stunning.

1. Enter the Service Menu: If the set is OFF, press Mute-1-8-2-POWER (in rapid succession). If the set is ON, press POWER-Mute-1-8-2-POWER.2. Select the Input to Calibrate: IMPORTANT: Start with your lowest-quality input first. Only pick the inputs you use (or care about) and calibrate them in this order: Antenna, Composite, Component 1, Component 2/3, S-video, VGA, DVI.3. Select Gamma curve: Set Gamma to 0 in the DDP1010 menu.
The difference between Gamma 0 and Gamma 1 is subtle. Gamma 1 is a bit truer at low levels, BUT compresses the high end, attenuating peak white punch on direct sun shots, explosions, etc. Gamma 0 is about equally good/bad in both ranges, and places the center 50 IRE level at the right point relative to peak white, which is a fair basis for compromise. So someone who favors Gamma 1 probably uses dark scenes to judge. I would suggest they purposely evaluate bright scenes and see if they are as happy with those. Life is full of choices.4. Set Brightness (Black Level) & Maximize Contrast (White Level): Preset RGB Gains and Offsets in the DNIe menu to 128 (midrange).
Display a 0 IRE field (full black) or the black-level bars.
Set Brightness by adjusting S_BR(DDP) in the DNIe menu until the speckled dithering just stops on the background. (Look closely at the screen to see this).
Temporarily set the Green and Blue Gains in the DNIe menu to 0.
Display a 100 IRE (100% white) field (now seen as red).
Set Contrast by adjusting S_CT(DDP) in the DNIe menu until just before limiting (the last step that produces a full increment in red light output). (Tip: if you don’t have colorfacts, or a lightmeter, look at the "S_CT(DDP)" text as you adjust. The text is already at max red level, so adjust the background to be JUST a couple of ticks darker than the text).
Repeat Brightness and Contrast adjustments until there is no further change. This establishes the maximum working range of the Red color control.5. Set Grayscale Color Temp to 6500K: Display a grayscale step pattern.
Leave the Red Gain and Offset at 128 since this is tied to maximum red level.
Adjust only the Green/Blue Gains and Offsets for a D65 neutral gray across the scale. (Easier said than done, of course!)
Observe Gain adjustments at 80-90 IRE and Offset adjustments at 20-30 IRE. Gain and Offset adjustments interact to some degree, so go back and forth until the color temp looks even across the scale.
Reevaluate the results by eye with a grayscale ramp pattern to check for evenness. If required, tweak ONLY the Blue/Green Offsets and Gains. Bear in mind that the primary colors on many displays, DLP included, track pretty badly at near-black levels. If you set the grayscale to track perfectly at 30% and 80%, you can end up with a color-cast near black, so play with the Blue/Green Offsets to find the best compromise.
Once you get the Offsets right you can pretty much dial-up any color temp you like by changing only Green and Blue Gain, and still have correct tracking over the grayscale. There is the subjective factor that variations in Blue are less critical, because they change color temp more than tint, which is less noticed, whereas variations in Red-Green balance are readily perceived as tint shift.6. Recheck Brightness and Contrast: Since there is some interaction between controls, recheck the Brightness and Contrast, and make any needed adjustments.7. Exit the Service Menu and Tweak the User Menu: Exit the Service Menu by powering OFF and waiting for the lamp to go out before restarting. You will notice that the User Menu defaults to "Dynamic" picture mode and “Normal” color temp any time you enter the Service Menu. These are the correct modes to use. (If you had the lip-sync fix… color temp may default to “Cool2"… leave it there).
Set DNIe OFF, Noise Reduction OFF, and Film Mode ON.
Adjust Sharpness to 0.
Adjust Color (saturation) and Tint, using the appropriate test patterns and the supplied color filters. Note that the Avia RGB filters were designed with CRT color primaries in mind. DLP has slightly different primaries, so the Saturation result may not be 100% accurate. My DLP looks best with Saturation set between -5% and -10%. Trust your eyes to help you pick a Saturation setting that looks the most natural, not necessarily the most vibrant, particularly in skin tones.
You will notice that the picture mode changes to “Custom” after adjusting Sharpness, Color and Tint. Leave it there. Also, leave the default values for Contrast (100) and Brightness in the User Menu, unless you need to make fine adjustments.
Repeat these User Menu adjustments for each input.Evaluate your results by playing your favorite DVD’s, but always bear in mind that image artifacts, banding, over-sharpening, over-saturated color, and color casts (e.g. Matrix=green), may be recorded in the source material (intentionally or unintentionally), so view a bunch of good quality movies to establish an average. Look particularly for scenes and skin-tones that are lit with bright daylight around midday.

Gary

Thanks Gary I will try that.

Great guide. I just have a few comments.

Originally posted by GSB
Note that we are aiming for softer, film-like accuracy here, not blow-your-hair-back TORCH MODE vibrancy. You really need to use Avia or DVE test-patterns for this, and preferably a ColorFacts unit, or else a D65 reference lamp. An ISF calibration is, of course the best way to get everything spot-on.



Maybe my understanding of the terminology is different, but I take "soft" to be the opposite of "sharp" (as in sharpness/detail), rather than referring the vibrancy of the picture. I took it as that when people refer to a "softer, more film-like picture" (i.e., of the HD3 chips, as opposed to the HLN HD2 chips that give a sharper picture)...


Once the Service Menu has been adjusted, the User Menu defaults to "Dynamic" picture mode and ?Normal? Color Temp.


It's worth noting that the TV reverts to Dynamic (and Normal color temp) as soon as you enter the Service Menu (not after you exit), so all of your adjustments are seen through the Dynamic preset's levels. So if you make your adjustments in the Service Menu, then switch back to the Movie preset or something, your defeating your SM adjustments.



EDIT -- One more comment:
You can use the color offsets to increase the amount of light in the dark areas (shadow detail) if you lose the 5%/10% detail through other adjustments. Of course this will affect the rest of the %s in different ways, so you have to be careful. But if you like 0 Gamma and find you are losing shadow detail, you can slightly adjust the offsets to bring back some light to the lower light levels (in conjunction with lowering brightness/black) and get back the shadow detail.

Originally posted by cyberbri
Maybe my understanding of the terminology is different, but I take "soft" to be the opposite of "sharp" (as in sharpness/detail), rather than referring the vibrancy of the picture. I took it as that when people refer to a "softer, more film-like picture" (i.e., of the HD3 chips, as opposed to the HLN HD2 chips that give a sharper picture)...
I think you just need to decouple your definition of sharpness/detail.
Sharpness and detail are two different things. An image can be detailed without being sharp, a perfect example being the Sky Captain dvd. I always think of soft as being the opposite of harsh, easier on the eyes. :)

So, how would you describe a "sharp" HD version of a movie compared to the DVD counterpart?

I think of sharp as the opposite as soft, as in the soft focus they apply to women on TV (and Michael Jackson - no, really!), to hide the wrinkles and lines in their skin. And by sharpening the picture with ffdshow, etc., you are bringing out more detail (not exactly, because you can't bring out detail that wasn't there, but you are making the details/lines/edges stand out more to give a sharper picture and the perceived impression of more detail (skin, clothing textures, etc.)

It can be sharp+detailed.
It can also be soft+detailed.

I would describe a "sharp" HD movie as one that has more of a 3D look to it due to more detail (higher resolution) than the DVD version. Even though it has a lot of detail, I wouldn't expect the HD version of Sky Captain to look very 3D because of the soft focus used.

I really wish I was better at expressing my thoughts in writing! :)

This is actually a very interesting conversation, probably worthy of it's own thread in the DVD forum, but a little out of place here.

Originally posted by cyberbri
Maybe my understanding of the terminology is different, but I take "soft" to be the opposite of "sharp" (as in sharpness/detail), rather than referring the vibrancy of the picture. I took it as that when people refer to a "softer, more film-like picture" (i.e., of the HD3 chips, as opposed to the HLN HD2 chips that give a sharper picture) Yes, these terms are kinda subjective aren't they? You, vlapietra and I could probably all be correct, when explaining what these terms mean to us. To me, sharpness, detail and vibrancy are all different things. I'll edit my post and take another stab at it. It's worth noting that the TV reverts to Dynamic (and Normal color temp) as soon as you enter the Service Menu (not after you exit).Good point, I'll fix that....you can slightly adjust the offsets to bring back some light to the lower light levels (in conjunction with lowering brightness/black) and get back the shadow detail. This doesn't sound right to me. By adjusting the brightness, you undo what you just changed with the offsets. But, in doing so, maybe you shifted the digitized gamma curve slightly, perhaps improving shadow detail just by chance.

Gary

My method isn't scientific by any means - just something I noticed. I used to have Gamma at 1. But I changed it to 0 and liked the results. But then I lost detail at 5% and 10% black. To get it back, I tried raising brightness. But then 0% became a little noisy. So I took brightness back down and notched the offsets a little, being sure not to upset the rest of the greyscale at any of the IRE.

It's not perfect, but it might work for some people. I've been tweaking my set since I figured out how to get into the SM about 9 months ago, learning as I go. I know it's not set perfect, but I'm very confident that I'm getting a great picture, with accurate greyscale/blacks/whites. Colors are hard to do without the proper equipment, but it looks good to me and that's all that matters to me. I'd have to reset everything to default and go back through again to do it over "properly" (if I could figure out what the defaults were). And even then, I don't think my results would be (read -> "look") much different anyway.

Fair enough! I agree that you need to be happy with how it looks in the end. A little bit of artistic liberty here or there, can certainly make for a more pleasing result. After all, DLP is far from perfect in the first place - we have to live with quite a few compromises.

Interestingly, I've had 3 different light engines in my set and they ALL responded slightly differently to calibration, noticeably so in the lightest and darkest areas of a grayscale ramp, for example.

Gary

I posted the following in it's own thread, but this may be a better place top get a response:


Help: "Posterizing" in Sammy HLN56W with new light engine:


I had the light engine replaced under warranty, which came with a new bulb (free, thankfully).

The old bulb had about 4000 hrs on it...The new one now has 200 hrs on it, and I'm still getting posterizing effects in areas that are dark, or close in tone--i.e. flesh tones, sky, clouds, etc..

Posterizing is like what you see when you change your computer monitor to 8 bit color from 24 or 32--color bands instead of smooth transitions from light to dark.

Is this something that will go away after the bulb is broken in? I've been running the screen on day and night for nearly ten days now. How long should break-in take? I don't remember this issue on good video sources when I first got the set, now it's on all sources, even DVD's. I have a Denon 5900, and LOTR looked awful.

I looked up some old threads, a lot are closed now. The N series tweaks thread is 68 pages, hate to wade through all that if anyone has a quick fix.

Also, I tried the service menu-- power off, mute 1-8-2 power on, not sure where to go from there...I found the gamma setting, will try gamma 0, and see what happens.

the service menu says: Release time June 11, 2003 14:43:20
T-B3K5001-214

I appreciate any thought anyone might have...within reason, of course...

Also:

Forgot to mention...

There's also a 2.5" circle of light in the upper Left quadrant of the screen, visible when powering down, and in very dark scenes.

I just wonder if I got a bad light engine, or if it's a matter of bulb break-in and tweaking.

Thanks for any help, guys...:)

This may sound stupid...but why set sharpness to 0? Quiet honestly, I don't see any difference it makes being anywhere from 0 to 100? Does it only make a difference in certainl connections, DVI vs component v SVHS?

I use to get the posterizing effects you talked about but don't see them any more at any level. Any difference in the SM settings for offsets and Gains between DVI and component?

jtirak,

You might not be able to see a difference if you go from 0 to 100 manually. But if you have say a preset with 0 sharpness and one with a high value, like Dynamic at 65, and switch back and forth instantaneously, you might be able to see the difference easier.

I know I can see the effects on my DVI/HTPC input with text, higher sharpening values giving me unwanted stuff around text.

But overall, there isn't a whole lot to the sharpening on these DLPs. Nothing like the strength of the sharpness on standard CRTs...

And I wonder if you don't get posterizing/banding any more because of a change in Gamma setting (now set to 0?).

Well, I just found the answer to my own question, so in case it hasn't been addressed in this thread before--which I somehow doubt, but I haven't read through all 67 pages--the answer is the DELAY setting in the SM, DP 1010 menu.

I froze the frame on Howie Long, Jimmy Johnson, and Terry Bradshaws faces, and completely dialed away a BAD case of clay-face.

Honestly, I just got lucky, because I have no idea what gets "delayed", and thought maybe it had something to do with lip synch, but I just played with it and noticed the posterizing, or clay face, got worse above 240 something, and below maybe 200 or so. right now I have it on 210.

I'll tweak it some more, and report how it works on other scenes, but I think I've found the magic button for my particular problem.

Hope you all find this interesting, and let me hear any comments.

moonhawk, good job on finding that fix. When the tech installs a new light engine, he is supposed to set the DELAY to the default (223). The service manual explains that the DELAY setting should be set to the value that produces the strongest red output. Below 223, a red screen starts to turn orange. Above 223, red becomes pink. So set it to 223.

As for the 2.5" circle of light visible in very dark scenes, thats a speck of dust on the projection lens. One of my 3 new light engines arrived without its protective dust cap, and the dust that had collected on the surface of the lens, caused DOZENS of those circles, all over my screen. Get the tech to blast the dust off with air, or to use the recommended cleaning solvents.

Gary

Thanks, Gary

The delay setting helped most of the problem with banding, maybe 223 will be better. I'm at 210 now. Idon't remember exactly where it was when I stared, but I seem to recall it was in the 140s.

I still have some of the effect on blank walls, and sky scenes, but not as bad as before.

I have canned air...Can I blow it off myself, or is it to hard to get to. Don't want to void tjhe warranty. It has served me well.

BTW, what exactly is being "delayed"?

Originally posted by moonhawk
Thanks, Gary

The delay setting helped most of the problem with banding, maybe 223 will be better. I'm at 210 now. Idon't remember exactly where it was when I stared, but I seem to recall it was in the 140s.

I still have some of the effect on blank walls, and sky scenes, but not as bad as before.

I have canned air...Can I blow it off myself, or is it to hard to get to. Don't want to void tjhe warranty. It has served me well.

BTW, what exactly is being "delayed"?
The color wheel. I think delay controls how fast it spins, but I know 140 is way too low. Try 223. You might also want to try Gamma 0, that really helps out clay face probs.

An incorrect color wheel delay can mess up color temp, the color gamut, and create banding artifacts.

As Vinny said, the default is 223. I've spent some time playing with this using the OpticOne colorimeter, and you really don't want to go more than a few clicks in either direction from 223 (I think mine is at 221).

Originally posted by GSB
[Calibration Guide]

Gary


I didn't go through all the steps you had, but I did go back and re-tweak my component 3 input (HD cable box). I did so because, in checking some scenes in the HD version of Matrix Reloaded, I noticed that there wasn't nearly the green overcast of the movie. I know they re-worked the colors on the first movie for the recent DVD boxed set, but I don't know why Reloaded would look this not-green in HD. So I sort of reset the colors to 128, and dropped the blues to bring the green out. I also tried to sort of match it up with the S-Video input (which I hadn't touched before) of the same HD source, to get the colors right. I didn't get it to look exactly like the others, but I was able to get a good balance, with the greens looking green, just like in the DVD version and the S-Video input.

I also re-tweaked my S-Video and DVI DNIe colors/brightness/contrast, with this new knowledge (gained over the past 9 months of tweaking the SM and working with DVDs on the computer), so now I think things look better, especially on Component 3. I did notice the lack of greens there (with all settings equal, 128, etc.) compared to the S-video input - which is something I read about here, on this thread I think, so it was good to see it for myself and be able to get rid of it. I think I had about 127-128 for red/green, with blue at 115-120 (offsets and gains).



I also noticed that changing settings in S-Video didn't affect Component 3, and DVI. I also noticed that for some reason, the Gamma setting for S-Video (I think) was still at 1, while the others were at 0. I don't know why, but I did change it. I only use that S-Video input for PIP while on the HTPC/DVI anyway, so it doesn't matter much. I can't get the on-screen guide over S-Video anyway (can't set HD box override to 480i because it's on the Component 3 input).


Anyway, that's the end of tweaking -- for now, anyway...

The settings are unique for each input. So anything you change in one has to be changed in the other. What the "ALL" means is that setting works on all the inputs, not that the changes take place on all the inputs.

I changed my set to your 105,105 etc settings a couple of pages ago and My set looks great. So maybe I have bad eyes. but I've got sub_br up at 252 and sub_ct at 110. I set those with a simple thx optimizer, so I dunno if that's bad or not. At times it seems to bright, but overall it looked like it matched up. The Superbowl was nice.

Originally posted by moonhawk
BTW, what exactly is being "delayed"? The speed of the colorwheel never changes. The delay setting controls the TIMING between the color segments on the wheel and the DMD (DLP chip).

For example, to display 100% red, all the mirrors have to be completely ON when the red segments pass the DMD, and completely OFF when the green and blue segments pass the DMD. That timing is obviously quite critical because the wheel spins at about 5400rpm and there are two red, two green and two blue segments. Each segment flashes by extremely quickly.

Gary

Originally posted by moonhawk
I have canned air...Can I blow it off myself, or is it to hard to get to. Don't want to void tjhe warranty. If the set is still in warranty, don't do it yourself - let them fix it. But if its out of warranty, it can be done without too much trouble. You may have to slide the light-engine out part-way, though. BUT be careful of canned air - it gets REALLY cold, and you could crack the lens... so use short, well-directed blasts.

Gary

That is one of the most cogent explanations I've heard on the subject of the delay parameter.

I know in the BenQ manual, you set delay with a PIN detector (a photodiode) and an oscilloscope looking for the most square waveform when viewing a 100 IRE screen.

Originally posted by bgall
The settings are unique for each input. So anything you change in one has to be changed in the other. What the "ALL" means is that setting works on all the inputs, not that the changes take place on all the inputs.


I know that part, but many people have said that if you go through and calibrate all the inputs, you calibrate from the top of the list, as the settings will carry over to anything below it. Ie., changing the Antenna settings will affect everything under that down the list, but changing the component settings will only affect the few things under that.

Personally, I've never found this to be true...

But the same settings might carry over between inputs of the same type -- ie., component or S-video...




I changed my set to your 105,105 etc settings a couple of pages ago and My set looks great. So maybe I have bad eyes. but I've got sub_br up at 252 and sub_ct at 110. I set those with a simple thx optimizer, so I dunno if that's bad or not. At times it seems to bright, but overall it looked like it matched up. The Superbowl was nice.

I'm glad the settings are working for you. If something's too bright, you can always back the UM contrast back from 100 to 95 or 90 to tone it down.

The contrast is a bit hard to set without the proper patterns, but the brightness should be the easiest thing to judge. It'll be different with different sources - DVD players, HTPCs, cable boxes, etc. But you just find the point where blacks start to get noise (light), and go down below that (for cable). If you're dealing with a DVD player/HTPC, it's easier because you can use test discs/pattern generators. Like I said, I realized that component 3 had a green deficiency compared to the S-Video and DVI inputs I checked (IIRC). It didn't look bad before, but I could really tell something was off with Matrix Reloaded on HD/component. Making the changes, I didn't really notice any major differences with any other source material. Probably too subtle except in green areas. It's like the brightness/black setting - you don't notice it's off until you watch something that should be dark - it might appear too dark, or too washed out, if it's not exactly right.

Is this a great forum, or what...?

Thanks for all the help, folks...Gary, your timing explanation was especially useful. It's a little scary tweaking things when you have no clue what they're doing.

I'll report back when I have a chance to reset delay to 223.

If I go through this whole thread, will I find all the default settings somewhere within?

Originally posted by moonhawk
If I go through this whole thread, will I find all the default settings somewhere within? Unfortunately, the default settings (even their names) have changed from one firmware revision to the next, so its not a good idea to try someone else's defaults.

There are actually a HUGE number of settings. Each setting you see on the service menu screen, could be different for each type of input. Mike_Pro compiled this pretty amazing spreadsheet of his defaults and tweaks, but bear in mind that his HLN was one of the earlier models and many settings have changed since then:

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~mikepro/dlp/DLP_Service_Menu.xls

If you need a specific default value, you can try asking here, but always include your firmware revision. Also try the "Search this Thread" feature at the top. I found that the fastest way to record defaults, before tweaking, is with a digital camera.

Gary

Can anyone explain why similar inputs like say Component 1, 2 and 3 would warrant different calibration values? If you plug the same source into each component input why wouldn't the same numbers give you the same effect across the board?

Can anyone explain why similar inputs like say Component 1, 2 and 3 would warrant different calibration values? If you plug the same source into each component input why wouldn't the same numbers give you the same effect across the board?

Just so I want to learn exactly what the settings do. Can some explain what the differnce between gain and offset is? :)

Also has anyone figured out how you can actually use the PATT_SEL feature and adjust at the same time. Everytime I go into it, it takes over the screen, and I can never seem to get out of it.

Take a look (http://www.digiupdate.com/P001_Samsung_HLN_DLP_2003.html) .

Originally posted by bgall
Just so I want to learn exactly what the settings do. Can some explain what the differnce between gain and offset is? :)

Also has anyone figured out how you can actually use the PATT_SEL feature and adjust at the same time. Everytime I go into it, it takes over the screen, and I can never seem to get out of it.

Gains are for high-light level values, and offsets are for low-light level (darks).

The patterns are for viewing only. You can go through them by pressing left/right. To get out, press left all the way and back out (pattern 0 = back to menu). There are some greyscale bars near the end that might be useful. Other than that, if you have the color gels, you can check the color patterns.

Originally posted by moonhawk
IIf I go through this whole thread, will I find all the default settings somewhere within?

What's your firmware?

I've read another person who posted his defaults for the same fw I have and my defaults are different, so I wonder if the defaults actually vary set-by-set.

Originally posted by bgall
What's your firmware?

I've read another person who posted his defaults for the same fw I have and my defaults are different, so I wonder if the defaults actually vary set-by-set.

Release time June 11, 2003 14:43:20
T-B3K5001-214

This is what you want?...or is it somewhere else?

That's the firmware. Mine is newer than yours so it prob wouldn't match.

SEP 29 2003 10:47:58
T-B3K6101-309

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Can anyone explain why similar inputs like say Component 1, 2 and 3 would warrant different calibration values? If you plug the same source into each component input why wouldn't the same numbers give you the same effect across the board? Component 1 is designed for different signals than Component 2 & 3, so their signal paths are different. The specifications for the HLN state:

Comp 1: DVD Component Video Input:
1 Set (Y, Pb, Pr) 480i, 480P
Comp 2/3: HDTV/DTV Component Video Input:
2 Sets (Y, Pb, Pr) 1080i, 720P, 480P

As far as I know, you calibrate once for Comp 1, and once for Comp 2 & 3.

Gary

Unless you have a W1 model then all three Comp. inputs accept all scan rates.

Originally posted by bgall
That's the firmware. Mine is newer than yours so it prob wouldn't match.

SEP 29 2003 10:47:58
T-B3K6101-309

My version is also 309. What are your settings for DVI & or Component 2?

Originally posted by vlapietra
..... You might also want to try Gamma 0, that really helps out clay face probs.

I set Gamma to zero. I think this is the best improvement that I have seen on my HLN5065W, firmware June 14, 2004 version 321. Thanks!

Well, I've set my delay from where I had it, 210, to 223, the "default"...Not much improvement, if any.

Skin tones have improved, but there is still severe--worse even--banding in skies, on walls, etc. Any even toned surface with a light gradient is broken up into bands.

I also set gamma to 0.

I'm wondering if I got a bad light engine.

Any other thoughts?

Just purchased the HLP5063w from BB and I am having problems with the picture. I have been reading the posts here and have tried to adjust gamma settings in SM, but still have bad pics.

Skin tones have improved, but there is still severe--worse even--banding in skies, on walls, etc. Any even toned surface with a light gradient is broken up into bands.

I seem to have the same problem with pic as moonhawk, plus I have a pronounced green tint to everything.

BB service is coming out thurs to look at it, but does it sound like a color wheel problem or just a settings issue? and is the BB tech going to be able to do anything about a settings issue?

Originally posted by grego27
Just purchased the HLP5063w from BB and I am having problems with the picture. I have been reading the posts here and have tried to adjust gamma settings in SM, but still have bad pics.

I seem to have the same problem with pic as moonhawk, plus I have a pronounced green tint to everything.

BB service is coming out thurs to look at it, but does it sound like a color wheel problem or just a settings issue? and is the BB tech going to be able to do anything about a settings issue?

This thread is for the HLN series sets, not the HLP. You should probably read this thread instead.
HLPXX63W Owners Thread/Problems/Tweaks/Service Menu/Discretes etc. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=482301)

It sounds like a settings issue and the BB tech probably won't be able to do a thing about it. Unless he swaps out the whole LE and probably the digital and analog boards as well. Kind of like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer. :)

Thanks vlapietra, I just found that tread!

Originally posted by moonhawk
Skin tones have improved, but there is still severe--worse even--banding in skies, on walls, etc. Any even toned surface with a light gradient is broken up into bands.

I also set gamma to 0. Yes, it is POSSIBLE that you got a bad light engine, but its more likely to be a calibration problem. I've had 3 light-engines installed, and each one was considerably different from the previous one. They all showed banding and other nasty artifacts, that required calibration to fix. The most important tweak is to use the FULL range of the TV’s contrast ratio.

Bear in mind though, that DLP inherently suffers with a SMALL amount of banding (even when properly calibrated), and if you use an analog connection instead of DVI, that will introduce banding too. Another thing: highly compressed DVD's may have banding and other artifacts recorded on the disk. You really need to find a good source to check your results. Its worth investing in a good calibration DVD, like DVE or Avia.

Refer to this post if you want to try the calibration yourself, otherwise, call an ISF calibrator:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5120358#post5120358

If you had a digital board replaced as well, your settings will be WAY out of whack - guaranteed! Calibration is the only answer.

Gary

Thanks, Gary

That's a good start. I don't have Avia yet, and was hoping to wait for a version more compatible with DLPs, etc, but they told me it would be the end of the year before availabiliity.

But I went through your guide and did what I could. The results are better already as far as color and contrast and brightness go, but still some banding.

I'd like to know what some of the other setting do, since the new engine is obviously out of whack, and since, being the curious cat I am, I played with a few things without noting their original settings.

Also, my "Film mode" is greyed out in the UM...Must be something in the SM I screwed up...Any hints?

There are also a couple of things that seem to reset to user prefs (Userreset) and reset to original (EER_Reset) in the Options menu...Is that what they do, and do they aply to all inputs? That may be able to tell me what "default" is for my firmware version...or, just put it back to the screwed up setting I got it with...They seem to have been even worse than what I did to it...:)

Found something in the DNIe menu called pat_sel which gave me red, green, or blue screens, but no way to access the S_CT(DDP) menu to adjust, so I couldn't use it to adjust contrast.

Anyway, this is fun. I'll keep playing with it, and I hope you're right that it's a matter of calibration.

Thanks again

Hi Guys, I just got the 5085 and I was wondering if you could tell me how to get into the SM and what setting do you recommend.


Thanks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=482301

Originally posted by platinum_ht
Hi Guys, I just got the 5085 and I was wondering if you could tell me how to get into the SM and what setting do you recommend. platinum_ht, for the 5085, THIS is the thread you should be reading: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=428777

Originally posted by moonhawk
The results are better already as far as color and contrast and brightness go, but still some banding. What input? And what material are you looking at?

Three things to bear in mind with banding:
1. Many DVD's, like "Finding Nemo" have banding recorded on the disk.
2. When presented with a perfect grayscale ramp, the DLP unavoidably introduces a small amount of banding (even slightly colorful).
3. Some of the image enhancement "features" of this TV, like DNIe & DNR, can introduce artifacts like banding too. Also check that NOISE_TH2 (in the Service Menu) is set to 6 (no higher).

Also, my "Film mode" is greyed out in the UM...Must be something in the SM I screwed up...Any hints? Again, what input?

There are also a couple of things that seem to reset to user prefs (Userreset) and reset to original (EER_Reset) in the Options menu...Is that what they do, and do they aply to all inputs? That may be able to tell me what "default" is for my firmware version...or, just put it back to the screwed up setting I got it with...They seem to have been even worse than what I did to it...:) According to the manual, "When performing an EER-RESET while WBDEFSET is turned ON, make sure to adjust the auto-color, image, and delay settings again".

So that indicates that an EER-RESET probably will not get you back to your original defaults. It could really mess things up in every input... who knows what "image" settings it would change (all offsets and gains for sure).

Gary

When something is greyed out in the UM, it is either disabled for that input, or set to always be ON for that input. I'm not sure which - ie., DNIe on DVI could be either always ON, or disabled and not ON, but just shows "ON".


And btw, for my set, after doing a lot of calibration in the DNIe menu for the different inputs (where the main color/br/ct calibrations are done), when I turn DNIe on/off on my component 3 HD cable box input, the only differences I see are a slight brigthness/saturation difference (neglible), plus a big difference in sharpness, which is especially noticeable when I toggle it on/off when viewing HD channels. Without it on, HD programming is soft. With it on, it's razor sharp. And after spending so much time on my HTPC upscaling and getting the picture as sharp as possible, of course I keep this on.

Yeah, I always keep DNIe on because, the set looks like crap without it. Like you said earlier, you should actually leave it as dynamic after you've been in the sm because that is the um setting you are using when tweaking.

I take the Dynamic settings and just tweak the sharpness, and maybe adjust the color saturation down to about 45-50 from 65. Sometimes slight brightness (black level) adjustments are needed too. :)

But yeah, you don't want to calibrate your set in the SM and then go back to using Cinema mode...

Gary...

I've been using mostly component 2, through an E* 921...SD on Satellite, HD OTA...though I also noticed severe banding on Lord of the Rings, Return of th King through my Denon 5900.

I realize there will be some banding inherent with this technology, but what I am seeing is way more than with the original color wheel, both with the 921 and especially the 5900, where I don't recall seeing any before. I was really quite happy with the picture before my "repair".

I'll put in a disc tonight and play with the settings some more.

Originally posted by moonhawk
I also noticed severe banding on Lord of the Rings, Return of th King through my Denon 5900.

I realize there will be some banding inherent with this technology, but what I am seeing is way more than with the original color wheel, both with the 921 and especially the 5900, where I don't recall seeing any before. I was really quite happy with the picture before my "repair". That doesn't sound good at all. If you've done what you can, calibrating separately for each input, its time to call Samsung again. Bummer. They'll make it right if you're persistent and polite. (Don't mention the service menu).

Gary

Hi, I've been using my HLN61w1 with component inputs. I've seen a few postings of people using the DVI input, one with an HTPC and one with a DVD player. I have a few questions:

1. Given that DVI is on the way out what chance is there that Samsung will provide an upgrade for HDMI?

2. With most players heading to HDMI, us DVI owners will have to use an HDMI to DVI cable, does anyone have a working configuration that has good PQ?

3. Is it really worth changing from component to DVI?

Thanks for any feedback,
tim

1) No chance.
2) I use an HDMI->DVI adapter for my cable box. I haven't noticed any PQ reduction (but I have heard nasty rumors about some HDMI->DVI conversions clipping BTB and WTW)
3) If your DVD player up converts, absolutely.

timdlp,

I haven't done A/B comparisons, so I can't answer from personal experience. But this is what other people seem to say:

There's not much of a difference between HD cable over DVI or component - none if any at all. But if you go from a component DVD player to an upconverting player over DVI, there's a great improvement.

I used to use VGA for my HTPC, with cable over DVI. But then I tried using the DVI on my HTPC, and moved HD cable to component. I wasn't able to do A/B comparison to see how much of a difference on HD cable there was, or how much of an improvement there was by going from VGA to DVI. But I'm happy with it, and that's all that matters. If you're happy with how your setup is, don't worry too much.

BTW, if you're using DVI for cable, you can still use the l/r audio jacks. If you're using it for DVD, you still run digital audio to a receiver (and jacks to the TV, if you need), so I wouldn't worry too much about it - especially because there are adapters.

Originally posted by GSB
Component 1 is designed for different signals than Component 2 & 3, so their signal paths are different. The specifications for the HLN state:

Comp 1: DVD Component Video Input:
1 Set (Y, Pb, Pr) 480i, 480P
Comp 2/3: HDTV/DTV Component Video Input:
2 Sets (Y, Pb, Pr) 1080i, 720P, 480P

As far as I know, you calibrate once for Comp 1, and once for Comp 2 & 3.

Gary

I have the HLN 4365W model and you are correct, my component inputs are setup as you state above, however they calibrate as a group. If I change a setting in COMP 1, it changes the setting in COMP 2 accordingly. This is also true in reverse. If I change a setting in COMP 2 it changes the setting in COMP 1. So they do calibrate as a group. I wish it were different but I have to accept that my COMP 1 and COMP 2 settings must be identical. I know because I've done my share of tweaking.

Specifically, I calibrated COMP 1, then went into COMP 2 to re-adjust to the original settings (since my tweaking had reset COMP 2 similtaneously) and then when I got back to COMP 1 the settings had reverted back to the original.

I think Comp 1 also has some other menu areas to calibrate besides the DNIe menu, so if you need to adjust colors, etc. separately for that input, you can do so with those menus.

The only Component settings are for 480i vs everything else.
- If Comp1 is 480i/480p only then 480i and >= 480p will have separate settings and Comp2+ will always be the same as the >= 480p settings on Comp1.
- If all Comp connections take all signals (W1 models, 480i->1080i) then you'll have the same 480i settings on all Comp and the same >=480p settings on all Comp.

Originally posted by vlapietra
The only Component settings are for 480i vs everything else.
- If Comp1 is 480i/480p only then 480i and >= 480p will have separate settings and Comp2+ will always be the same as the >= 480p settings on Comp1.
- If all Comp connections take all signals (W1 models, 480i->1080i) then you'll have the same 480i settings on all Comp and the same >=480p settings on all Comp.

Mine is the former. COMP is 480i/480p only and so far as I can tell the DNie settings cannot be different for COMP 1 and COMP 2.

Originally posted by vlapietra
.......2) I use an HDMI->DVI adapter for my cable box. I haven't noticed any PQ reduction (but I have heard nasty rumors about some HDMI->DVI conversions clipping BTB and WTW)
3) If your DVD player up converts, absolutely.

I use an HDMI->DVI cable connecting my DirecTV HD PVR to a Samsung HLN5065W. PQ is great! It is my understanding that the only difference between HDMI and DVI is the audio component in absent from DVI.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Mine is the former. COMP is 480i/480p only and so far as I can tell the DNie settings cannot be different for COMP 1 and COMP 2.
By DNie settings you mean the settings in the DNIE menu (gains, offsets, etc) right?

If you feed COMP1 a 480i signal, you should have independent settings from when you feed COMP1 a 480p+ signal.

COMP2 will always have the same settings as COMP1 @ 480p+ (b/c COMP2 can't accept a 480i signal). This applies to non-W1 models only.

Originally posted by allenn
I use an HDMI->DVI cable connecting my DirecTV HD PVR to a Samsung HLN5065W. PQ is great! It is my understanding that the only difference between HDMI and DVI is the audio component in absent from DVI.
Technically, that should be the only difference. But I've read some cases where blacks and whites were being clipped. I'd guess do to a poor HDMI implementation.

Originally posted by vlapietra
By DNie settings you mean the settings in the DNIE menu (gains, offsets, etc) right?

If you feed COMP1 a 480i signal, you should have independent settings from when you feed COMP1 a 480p+ signal.

COMP2 will always have the same settings as COMP1 @ 480p+ (b/c COMP2 can't accept a 480i signal). This applies to non-W1 models only.

Right, I mean the DNIE menu.

I didn't know there were independent settings for 480p and 480i in the DNIE menu. I guess I've only found one. I must have never encountered the 480i menu in COMP 1. But that explains why my settings are all connected.

Originally posted by vlapietra
Technically, that should be the only difference. But I've read some cases where blacks and whites were being clipped. I'd guess do to a poor HDMI implementation. HDMI can carry video in RGB or YCbCr format. DVI can only do RGB. When you use an HDMI-to-DVI adapter cable, the HDMI transmitter automatically switches to RGB format. One commonly-used HDMI transmitter chip incorrectly clips blacks and whites when converting to RGB.

Gary

Originally posted by GSB
HDMI can carry video in RGB or YCbCr format. DVI can only do RGB. When you use an HDMI-to-DVI adapter cable, the HDMI transmitter automatically switches to RGB format. One commonly-used HDMI transmitter chip incorrectly clips blacks and whites when converting to RGB.

Gary
Thanks for the explanation Gary. I remembered reading something about clipping but I didn't know any details.

Sea Ray: I have a prog. scan DVD player hooked up to Comp1, so by toggling prog. scan On/Off on the DVD player while in the service menu I can calibrate the settings for each signal.

Originally posted by vlapietra


Sea Ray: I have a prog. scan DVD player hooked up to Comp1, so by toggling prog. scan On/Off on the DVD player while in the service menu I can calibrate the settings for each signal.

OK, thanks. My DVD player is always in progressive scan.

Originally posted by GSB
HDMI can carry video in RGB or YCbCr format. DVI can only do RGB. When you use an HDMI-to-DVI adapter cable, the HDMI transmitter automatically switches to RGB format. One commonly-used HDMI transmitter chip incorrectly clips blacks and whites when converting to RGB.

Gary

What does this mean in terms a dummy can understand? What am I missing by not getting "YCbCr format"?

Originally posted by allenn
What does this mean in terms a dummy can understand? What am I missing by not getting "YCbCr format"? You're not missing anything. DVD's are recorded in YCbCr format (Y = chroma {black&white} signal, Cb/Cr = luma {color} signal). However, the display tube/DLP/LCD usually requires the signal in RGB (red, green, blue) format, so a conversion has to take place anyway. That conversion (called color decoding) can be done either in the player or the display, depending what the display prefers at its input. HDMI can do either format, but DVI can only do RGB.

Hope that makes sense.

Gary

Originally posted by GSB Hope that makes sense.Gary

Thanks for the reply. Makes sense to me. I have DVI connecting my DirecTv HD PVR to a Samsung DLP. My DVD connects via component video to my Samsung DLP. I guess I have the best of both worlds.

In terms of DVI/HDMI I have found a number of descriptions:
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/support/DVI_HDMI.htm
and
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/learnabout/definitions/rgb_vs_yprpb.html

My concern is that I would have to use an HDMI to DVI cable to use this on my HLN. And, as was posted a few responses ago there is some trouble going from HDMI to DVI.
1. Is this an issue with the cable/conversion or is this an issue with the player (assuming a DVD player with HDMI out)? That is why I asked if folks were using certain players.
2. Does the HLN deal with the HDCP such that the HDMI out will work correctly?

It does sound like the picture will be better to go this route unless I run into the HDMI to DVI conversion problems. Thanks for the feedback so far.

tim

Originally posted by timdlp
1. Is this an issue with the cable/conversion or is this an issue with the player (assuming a DVD player with HDMI out)? That is why I asked if folks were using certain players. Its a player issue... it depends which HDMI transmitter chip they use.
2. Does the HLN deal with the HDCP such that the HDMI out will work correctly? Yes, the HLN handles HDCP just fine. And the picture over DVI is CERTAINLY better than component, assuming the player doesn't have the clipping issue during HDMI->DVI conversion. Keep in mind though, that to get the best picture quality, you MUST do at least a basic calibration of your display to the new player.

Gary

Originally posted by SD Diver
--------------------
should i look out for any common problems if they end up replacing most of the internals of the tv? i'll report back on the results of the service call.
---------------------

I had the same done last week. Well, now I have more fan noise, as well as a number of dark gray circles (around a dozen) that show up in dark scenes as well as the top of the screen (when watching really widescreen) and along the left side (when pillars are shown in a 4:3). Looks like dust on the optics? Anyway, having it done again next week (they can't clean the optics - they'll replace the light engine). :confused:

SD Diver

had my light engine & digital board replaced today. i noticed the same circles that you mentioned. there are several of them that start just to the lower right of center & go in a series towards the upper left of the screen. they are 2-3 inches in diameter & noticeable on a black screen. i also notice dark bars across the top & along the left edge of the screen that are darker than the rest of the screen when it's all black. also, the screen is not centered. the image is so low that about 1 inch at the top of the screen is not used; it's always black. i can't see any icons on my taskbar when using the htpc. if i want to use the taskbar, i have to double its size. the image is also too far to the left. when i have my hd card at full screen, i can see the green edge of the image on the right part of my screen. also, i still have the lip sync problem on one channel. i'm gonna have the service guy come back to see if he can fix the problems.

The technician didn't bother to check if the LE was centered properly. It's a physical adjustment that has to be made by taking off the back of the TV. It's a two man job, so make sure you check the screen while he adjusts the LE.

Make sure he cleans the lens also, that will take care of the dark grey circles.

I turned my 507W1 on this morning and the screen was black with about 6 vertical white lines evenly spaced out on it. Nothing would get rid of it, I couldn't change inputs or bring the menu up (it was like the TV was stuck in this position). None of the "3 lights" on the front of the TV were on. Turning the TV off for a few minutes fixed the problem but, I was just wandering if anyone has heard of this or seen it before?

Chris

I turned my 507W1 on this morning and the screen was black with about 6 vertical white lines evenly spaced out on it.

Chris,

A similar (but not exactly the same) thing happened to me. It was an intermittant problem that was fixed under warranty by replacing the main board. I attached a pic of the problem.

I'd recommend taking a photo to document the problem (if it's intermittant) and requesting warranty work be done, assuming your set's still under warranty.

Ted

Originally posted by HT_Ted
Chris,

A similar (but not exactly the same) thing happened to me. It was an intermittant problem that was fixed under warranty by replacing the main board. I attached a pic of the problem.

I'd recommend taking a photo to document the problem (if it's intermittant) and requesting warranty work be done, assuming your set's still under warranty.

Ted
Thanks for the reply. This has only happened once to me so I'll just wait to see if it starts happening more. I looked at your pick. Mine did not have the color portions like yours did and the white lines were much thiner (maybe 1/16") and a few more of them. Wish I had taken a picture now. I just had the boards replaced a month ago.

I apologize if this has been address some where in the 80 pages of this thread.

My question is:

I just purchased a Samsung HLN5065W manufacture date of September 2004 from Costco. Will I be able to pull OTA HDTV Signal's via an VHF/UHF antenna with the onboard tuner or will I need another turner to accomplish this (provided I can pickup a signal which I believe there are three that I should be able to pick up).

I haven’t had the system quite a week and I will return it if I can’t.

Thanks in advance.

I apologize if this has been address some where in the 80 pages of this thread.

My question is:

I just purchased a Samsung HLN5065W manufacture date of September 2004 from Costco. Will I be able to pull OTA HDTV Signal's via an VHF/UHF antenna with the onboard tuner or will I need another turner to accomplish this (provided I can pickup a signal which I believe there are three that I should be able to pick up).

I haven’t had the system quite a week and I will return it if I can’t.

Thanks in advance.

You need an external digital tuner.

I apologize if this has been address some where in the 80 pages of this thread.

My question is:

I just purchased a Samsung HLN5065W manufacture date of September 2004 from Costco. Will I be able to pull OTA HDTV Signal's via an VHF/UHF antenna with the onboard tuner or will I need another turner to accomplish this (provided I can pickup a signal which I believe there are three that I should be able to pick up).

I haven’t had the system quite a week and I will return it if I can’t.

Thanks in advance.

Heard you the first 2 times. :D

If you have cable they will provide you with the HD tuner. For OTA reception you do need a tuner because I believe you bought an HD ready TV.

It is a great TV, but you will need to purchase an HDTV tuner for $300 or more. The Samsung tuners are a good match because they will output 720p, which is the native resolution of your set. The best connection should be DVI, then the 15-pin RGB, then 3-wire component. Tune in an HD signal from ABC or FOX (which broadcast in 720p), and be prepared to be amazed.

Also, if you are close enough to the digitial stations in your area who broaccast HDTV, you might want to consider VOOM with the $1 offer. Their box not only gives you the satellite HD but also any local HD and they supply and antenna for you as well.

Guys, how is the focus on the far right side of your screen?

On my 4674, the focus rapidly deteriorates in the last 3-4 inches on the right. This is best seen when using a PC to display sharp black text on a white background (with 1:1 pixel mapping). This was never a problem with my HLN. Also, chromatic aberration (color splitting due to lens refraction) looks considerably worse on the left and right than it did on my HLN.

Is it only my set, or ALL of them?

Gary

This is not normal. My guess is that the focal plane of the color wheel board is tilted. A technician should do this mechanical adjustment. Basically, you loosen screws, move the board around until the image is centered and focused in all four corners and then tighten the screws.

It is similar to getting a front projector exactly centered and its focal plane exactly parallel to the screen.

What is a 4674...?...New model?

Sorry, should have posted to the HLP4674W thread. Will do now.

Thanks for the response Kevin. But if your theory is correct, then the focus would become progressively worse across the screen. Focus on mine is perfect all the way until it suddenly deteriorates in the last few inches on the right. Maybe the lens is bad.

Gary

For those of you who haven't tried running a direct connection into your A/B cable input for basic cable stations you should give it a try. I found that the low signal amp on the TV does a very good job of improving the signal quality for non-digital channels w/o introducing a lot of noise. It is a serious pain to set up since you have to turn it on for every channel independently (as far as I can tell) but I was very pleased with the results compared to a component or s-video connection from my cable box. You also have the option of doing some fine tuning using the coarse/fine adjustment option in the same menu similar to what is offered on the VGA connection for a PC. My wife even commented on the difference which was much nicer than the usual "why can't you just leave the stupid TV alone for one night" comment I usually get. It took some time to set it up but I think it was well worth the effort. I would recommend just setting up a separate activity or macro in your remote to allow easy switching between the two for watching digital/HD channels. I now can actually watch some of the analogs w/o wanting to constantly scream and the remote option was satifactory for the WAF since she has the choice of watching a station that looks terrible through the usual method if she's feeling lazy or switching back and forth. Hopefully this will help out some of the rest of you with poor cable signals and/or those like me who think the SA HD cable box does a terrible job on analog signals.

Dave

Originally posted by Rancyd
those like me who think the SA HD cable box does a terrible job on analog signals.

Dave Have you tried the SA 8300 HD? It does much better with analog.

Originally posted by Gary J
Have you tried the SA 8300 HD? It does much better with analog.

Yeah, I have the 8300 and the straight A/B connection is much improved over the s-video or component output from the 8300 even after spending several hours tweaking the connection and adding low noise in-line amps before the box. Eveyone will have a different experience of course but in my case the box introduces a lot of extra noise not seen in the A/B connection. The digitals and HD channels look very good through the box though so I know it merely an analog signal issue.

Dave

So, are you guys using a splitter to send 1 cable to the box and 1 to the monitor? I'd like to do this if it will be a noticable improvement in analog quality.
I'm using a Pace box and DVI connection, btw.

For those of you who haven't tried running a direct connection into your A/B cable input for basic cable stations you should give it a try. I found that the low signal amp on the TV does a very good job of improving the signal quality for non-digital channels w/o introducing a lot of noise.

I just picked up an 8300 box from Time Warner and also notice the very poor SD picture.

Can you explain what you mean by A/B cable input. I don't see any like that on my 8300.

Thanks

Try activating only the 720p and 1080i resolutions on the 8300.

I also did this recently with my Motorola 6812 HD DVR from Comcast for my analog channels.

The DVD is digitizing and buffering the video, so analog looks pretty bad, much worse than through the normal digital cable box we had for a month when we moved to our new place before they upgraded the area.

When comparing pq straight through the antenna versus the cable box, I found it easiest to see the difference in the on-screen logos, specifically the Sci-Fi logos. Through the HD DVR cable box, there is stepping along the diagonal sides. Through Antenna, the sides are smooth.

The overall picture for analog stations is much better directly through the antenna, and some of the stations look very good. Still nowhere near as good as my 20" Samsung CRT in the bedroom, though, not even on the digital cable channels. I wish they could have put better hardware/scalers in these new $3K (give or take) sets - no wonder people get these new TVs and aren't "impressed" with the PQ (although many times they think they're watching in HD because the program says "available/simulcast in HD" and say they don't know what the fuss is all about - when it looks worse than it did on their old CRT)...

I tried S-video out of the HD DVR box before, but it still had the artifacts from the digitizing/buffering of the signal.

I didn't notice as much of a difference last year, when I was only using the HD cable box (6200), but that could have been because I didn't know what specific things to look for when I tested. But then again, it could have been because it didn't have a DVR and it wasn't digitizing/buffering the signal.

Plus, through Antenna, you get more zoom/stretch options. Through component/cable box, I have Normal and Stretch. Through antenna, I have Normal, Stretch, Panorama, Zoom 1 & 2. When I use Antenna, I put it on Panorama (keeps the middle of the screen relatively normal, and just stretches the sides more). I also put it on Zoom 1 while watching some Battlestar Galactica, which is letterboxed, so it filled the screen with the actual image perfectly.

I found that I got the best picture by putting the cable box into (I forget the exact name) bypass mode. That way regular channels came in as 480i allowing the Faroujda in the tv to do the processing instead of the terrible upsampler in the cable box. Setting the unit to only pass 720p looks terrible, basically the line-doubler in the box is totaly incompetent, especially compared to the faroujda.

Still, for regular cable the TV tuner seems much better than the cable box for regular cable. HDTV of course blows everything away.

That's nice that you can do that. I would, but I use component 3, which only allows 480p and up. If I used component 1, I could have 480i, but nothing above 480p. What are you using to get 480i and 720p over the same cable? Do you have one of the W1 sets that accepts 480i-1080i or something?

I purchased my HLN4365W about 10-11 months ago. After about 5 months, I had the color wheel replaced due to noise issues - only the color wheel, nothing else. I had read about technicians replacing entire light engines rather than replacing just the color wheel itself.

Well, since December-January I've noticed the color wheel/fan getting louder and louder. Last week I finally called to have it fixed. Got an appointment a few days later, and the tech came and fixed it today. Very quick service.

The tech actually replaced the whole light engine with a brand new one, including the bulb. We had about 3100 hours on our bulb (I forgot how long they usually last), but this lets us go even longer without having to replace the bulb.


But when the tech first put it in, sealed it up and fired it up, I noticed it was tilted very drastically - about 3/8" difference between the left and right edges. I complained to him, but he tried to say that there's always going to be some sort of distortion with these types of sets. I even fired up Minority Report, OAR from ABC on my DVR, and showed him. He said that I had underscan, thought it might be my cable box settings, etc. I explained the aspect ratio of the film, which he claimed to understand but it was obvious he didn't know the difference between 16x9 and 2.35:1. I asked him if it could be the positioning of the board inside the set, but he seemed unwilling to do anything. I said that if it was going to be this bad, I wanted him to order another light engine. So he went to his van, called back to home base, and said he got authorization to open it up and try and adjust the positioning of the light engine. Sure enough, he wiggled it around and we were able to get it lined up just right. All we had to do was move the X position in the Service Menu over to the right. I went back to my HTPC/DVI input, where I had shown him before with the desktop to see how bad the tilt was, and it was perfectly straight. It looks like the DVI input has a separate X/Y positioning than the Component 3 input, so I fixed that. Not only was it straight, but with my 1232x694 custom centered output from my HTPC (nVidia driver/custom resolution through control panel), but there was less overscan than before, and the sides were straighter than they used to be. The bottom edge /task bar is perfectly on the bottom of the screen, and the top edge is just barely off the top. I'd say less than 4 pixels off vertically. The left/right also looks great, maybe about 4 pixels off, with a 1-2 pixel bow on the right side (top is wider), and 3-4 pixels on the left (top to bottom). Again, this is much straighter than it was originally.

The tech mentioned that it's especially hard to get rid of the bowing with these thin projection sets, and it'll be harder with the new models that are even thinner, because there isn't as much room to project the image. He said that the older RPTVs were much easier to fix bowing, because the cabinets were so deep.

So the picture looks great, is perfectly straight and horizontal, etc. I just have to go back in tonight and adjust for the new light engine/bulb (although I know I probably need 100 hours for it to settle in again to have "final adjustments").

He seemed a little ticked off when I was complaining about the tilted screen, but he had been having a rough day, so I didn't get too upset. I just let him do his thing, took what he said as the truth, and just made sure he knew I was going to request a new LE if he said the tilt was not fixable. He was able to fix it, and everything was fine.

But he said that first of all, his job schedule for today was different on his computer at home than it was on his gps/scheduler that he carries with him. He came an hour earlier than I expected him, and half-way through the job he got a call and found out he was supposed to be somewhere else first. Then the UPC bar code on the box for the LE was right over the opening, so after he finished and tried to scan it, it wouldn't take, because it had been cut through to open the box. So he had to try to deal with that for a while, and finally just took the box and was going to take care of it back at the service center.




So, other than a few issues with the tech (I am very glad I was there so I could have him adjust the LE positioning - I'll make sure I'm always there whenever someone comes to fix something from now on), Samsung did a great job of handling my claim, getting me set up with an appointment, and getting the problem fixed right away. It's been a week or a little less, since I called, and I'm back to normal. This was my second fix by Samsung, and I'm still impressed by their customer service and dedication to fixing the problem.

Originally posted by cyberbri
...Samsung did a great job of handling my claim, getting me set up with an appointment, and getting the problem fixed right away. It's been a week or a little less, since I called, and I'm back to normal. This was my second fix by Samsung, and I'm still impressed by their customer service and dedication to fixing the problem. cyberbri,

Thanks for sharing. Glad it all worked out well. I knew about the tilt issue, but I found it interesting how you were able to reduce the overscan too!

Gary

Shortly after I purchased my HLN437W1 back in November, I had Samsung service out for a tilted image. The left side was 1/4" lower than the right and supposedly spec is within 1/8". I had a two guy crew show up right on schedule to do the adjustment. One guy moved the light engine while the other guy viewed the test pattern on the screen to tell him where to move it. Without much difficulty, they got it to around 1/16" and locked it down. After my past experiences with Sony service, Samsung's version was a dream. From calling in the problem to resolution it couldn't have been smoother.

Well, my guy from Ultimate Electronics extended warranty just called and said he couldn't make it today to look at my color banding problem with the new light engine, and would have to reschedule...:(

Two measley feet of snow, and he wusses out!.....:D

Originally posted by moonhawk
Well, my guy from Ultimate Electronics extended warranty just called and said he couldn't make it today to look at my color banding problem with the new light engine, and would have to reschedule...:(

Two measley feet of snow, and he wusses out!.....:D


I just got a new LE yesterday (see my post above), but wish they had just replaced the noisy color wheel.


It may have just been that it was the middle of the night with no sound around anywhere, but the fans on the new LE *seemed* as loud as it was before, or almost as loud anyway.

Plus, I have an odd issue. I was watching Eurotrip in HD (DVR), two hours of my life I will never get back - but I noticed that in red areas, the darker shades were purple. For skin tones, this looked really bad.

So I checked my DVI input as well, and found it in the same kinds of areas.

With my DVI input, I re-adjusted my service menu settings using a combination of the THX drop-shadow screen (for blacker-than-black and brightness level for VMR9/DVD - quick and easy), and the Phillips Pattern Generator for colors. I was able to smooth out the grey scale, and adjust the colors so that there is no more blue in the darker reds. The biggest change with this new LE was that I needed to turn my SM brightness from 105 to 120, and turn down the gains for the three colors down from 115-128 to the 60s-80s. Maybe I had never been this thorough before and just didn't notice, but in the Phillips Pattern Generator, I used the screen that showed red, green, blue and white around the edges, with 5% steps (0-15 and 75-100) for each color. Making that contrast-up & gain-down adjustment allowed me to get as close as I could to having clear demarkations at the 5% marks on the upper and lower ends of the scale.

So I went and checked LOTR-FOTR-EE, disc 1 in Rivendell, Gandalf talking to the main elf (father of the girl), and the blue/purple was gone from the shadow area of his face. However, I popped in Matrix Reloaded and checked the Zion Dance / Neo+Trinity bed scene, and saw really bad color decoding in the darker/shadow skin areas - despite having adjusted the color balance, etc. The Miramax logo that comes up on the beginning of LOTR also had weird bands of blue and red (both before and after calibration), where before it was a perfectly smooth blue with my former LE.


I'm sincerely hoping that after 100 hours or so, this will all go away and I can re-calibrate to the brighter/newer bulb. Maybe I'm just noticing it now because I have more critical eyes now. But if this problem doesn't go away after 100 hours, I'm going to reset the color gains/offsets to 128, etc., check again, and call Samsung and tell them this LE is faulty because: A) the color decoding issue, B) noisy fans, and C) a dead mirror/pixel (barely noticeable during normal watching, but there is a single dead black/dark pixel in the upper left corner).


Has anyone else seen similar color issues with new LEs? This is really annoying. I really, really wished they had just replaced the color wheel (the 3 fans were much quieter on the last LE - new fans seem as loud as the old color wheel).

Frustrated... Great customer service, but frustrated...

I've had my TV for almost a year, but as I posted above, I just had the LE replaced due to a noisy color wheel.


When waiting for the first 100 hours with a new DLP, and I presume with a new LE like this, what exactly changes or "settles"? As described above, I'm having color banding/posterization issues in darker reds and darker skin tones. I was able to calibrate test patterns to get rid of this, but watching actual DVDs still shows the problem.

What happens in the first 100 hours with the LE? Will this problem get better/go away? Will changing the color wheel delay do anything (I can try this on my own tonight)? Any ideas, besides leave it on 24 hours a day and wait till it reaches 100 hours to see (it's already at about 12, since yesterday)?

Originally posted by cyberbri
When waiting for the first 100 hours with a new DLP, and I presume with a new LE like this, what exactly changes or "settles"? As described above, I'm having color banding/posterization issues in darker reds and darker skin tones. I was able to calibrate test patterns to get rid of this, but watching actual DVDs still shows the problem.

What happens in the first 100 hours with the LE? Will this problem get better/go away? Will changing the color wheel delay do anything (I can try this on my own tonight)? Any ideas, besides leave it on 24 hours a day and wait till it reaches 100 hours to see (it's already at about 12, since yesterday)? Check that DELAY (color wheel) is set to 223. With a new LE from the factory, this setting is out of whack, and it will definitely cause banding and other issues. The tech is supposed to set it and may have forgotten.

The only thing that changes over the first 100-200 hours is the color temp and light-output of the bulb (and POSSIBLY some loosening of the hinges on the DMD mirrors).

Do your calibrations again after setting DELAY.

Gary

Thanks, Gary. IIRC, it's at the default of 224. I'll try adjusting it tonight and see if that helps.

And thanks for the info on the bulb, etc. I'll definitely re-calibrate brightness/contrast after 100 hours, but I'm trying to figure out this bad banding/posterization problem as soon as possible. It's good to know that it probably won't go away without a lot of tweaking or a new LE. I might change the color gains/offests back to default, and if it has the problem, call Samsung again and tell them this LE is faulty. There's a stuck mirror, and the cooling fans are very loud as well (as loud, or almost as loud, as the color wheel I had replaced - too bad I can't have my old LE back with just a replaced color wheel...)

Cyberbri...

I've got over 400 hrs on my new LE, and the colorbanding is as bad as brand new, despite all attempts at delay setttings, etc.

And, like you, I had no such issues with my original.

Darn snow.....

I reported earlier that I had received a new LE, but had bad posterization/color decoding issues with dark reds looking purple. I tried to calibrate it out, but was unsuccessful.


Then tonight, before I called Samsung back to complain about the LE, I decided to reset my color gains/offsets and start over. And sure enough, I was able to calibrate the set back into perfect shape - probably better now that even before.

I used the Phillips Pattern Generator ( http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ ), CRT Adjustment color screens to do color balance. I noticed that I had to get a good value, and come back out of the SM to tone down the color to really nail down the upper end (80-95%) in the User Menu, because when you are in the SM, you are viewing everything through Dynamic presets (color at 65).

I also set my Contrast a little higher in the SM to compensate for when the bulb darkens a bit, and give me room to go up/down if needed. That should give me enough headroom to turn it back up once the first 100-200 hours or so are up, in case I see the picture a little dimmer.

I also found that my color wheel Delay setting was 224. I set it at 220, and anything over 225 created bad results. I didn't notice a big difference between 224 and 210 or so, so in that range should be fine.

Then I took these settings from the DVI (HTPC) over and applied them to my component 3 input, where I first saw the purple dark-reds last night. Modified my settings slightly, and the picture looks great. (the colors on NBC's Committed look great).


Of course I'll have to go back in and fine-tune everything once the bulb/hardware settles down, but I'm very pleased that I was able to calibrate that problem out of the picture, and I learned even more about the colors and my set using the Phillips Pattern Generator.

This just goes to show how different sets need different specific calibration numbers, why one person's settings might not necessarily work on another persons', and why even with the same factory settings, these sets can look different when lined up in the stores.

Originally posted by moonhawk
Cyberbri...

I've got over 400 hrs on my new LE, and the colorbanding is as bad as brand new, despite all attempts at delay setttings, etc.

And, like you, I had no such issues with my original.

Darn snow.....

Had you ever adjusted the service menu picture settings before? As I wrote in my above post, I was able to get rid of my problem by resetting the color gains/offsets to 128/122 respectively, and work from there. Having an HTPC with software like the Phillips Pattern Generator really made it easy.

Anyway, you may be able to fix your problem through some tweaking, without having to have a completely new board put in to replace your current one.

Originally posted by cyberbri
...before I called Samsung back to complain about the LE, I decided to reset my color gains/offsets and start over. And sure enough, I was able to calibrate the set back into perfect shape - probably better now that even before. Well done! I had 3 light engines installed and every one had to be calibrated from scratch. They were vastly different - especially impacting the look of the Avia Grayscale Ramps (horrible banding, color casts, contrast/brightness errors, etc). By following the procedure in the "Calibration Crash Course" (posted earlier) I was able to get excellent results every time.

Gary

Originally posted by cyberbri
Then tonight, before I called Samsung back to complain about the LE, I decided to reset my color gains/offsets and start over. And sure enough, I was able to calibrate the set back into perfect shape - probably better now that even before.




UPDATE:
I've been testing DVDs, scenes I know well, to see how they look. One scene in particular in Harry Potter 3 stands out (end of chapter 8). It is the scene where the boys are eating the candy that makes them let out sounds of animals, etc., and Harry gets a steam train one. But the boy sitting off to the right has a red robe on. Up until now, the robe looked thick and heavy, like a velvet or felt. But now, it looks lighter and shinier, like silk or something. Before I didn't have the colors+contrast calibrated correctly, so it appeared more dull (no highlights). But now I finally see what it is supposed to look like.

This was like the first time I saw the vertical-line texture on the title page of There and Back Again in LOTR-FOTR that Bilbo's writing on.

It's great to go back (with a better setup) and notice details you've never noticed before (due to lack of proper adjustments) - like hearing details in music you've never noticed before.


I've attached the shot in Harry Potter I'm talking about.

Maybe it wasn't there, or maybe I never noticed it before, but just now n the 2nd Harry Potter, I see the same kind of thing in another red coat. I've never seen the highlights and sheen and detail in these coats like this before. (see attached - Slytherin's green cloaks show same details)

(on top of my calibration tonight, I also recently switched from Overlay to VMR9 on my HTPC - Zoom Player + ffdshow, so that has helped the pq a lot too)

I don't have an HTPC or any type of calibration software, but I have tweaked it extensively...Did you get rid of your color banding problem as well?

I did use the basic tweaks amd settings described above by Gary, got my white and black points pretty well nailed, and there was a great improvement in the overall PQ, but the color banding is still quite bad in certain scenes, and independent of input.

Yes, there is still a little bit of banding on Finding Nemo, but a lot of scenes I looked at were banding free, and I didn't see any in the other places I checked (ie, the Miramax logo at the beginning of LOTR-FOTR-EE that gave me nasty bands of blue and red(!) Monday night).

I think this was because I calibrated not only the greyscale, but the red, green and blue scales as well. With color up even slightly too high, the top end gets crushed and you lose highlight detail in the colors. And if that spectrum is crushed / not smooth, that can create banding.

So if you're not on an HTPC and can't use those sorts of test pattern software, you'll need a test disk like Avia or DVE to get those color gradation patterns to tweak just right.

If you look at the first shot from HP I posted on a computer, you can see all the highlights reflecting the light on the red robe. Before I didn't have that, and it looked like a heavy, dark velvet or felt robe or something. That's because my color scales were crushed. In the picture I'm attaching of what one of my color scale screens looks like, the left 3-4 bars of the colors used to be the same color (crushed), and there wasn't a good gradation from black to light with details in the darker areas. If the color setting in the User Menu was up too high, the highest 3-4 bars would all appear the same color - so when viewing it through the Service Menu I couldn't get the adjustments right because the SM shows everything through Dynamic settings, which has Color at 65. The contrast (white level) setting also affects these colors, especially the blue (one or two User Menu contrast notches really changes it a lot).

But now they all look good (maybe not perfect, but much better than before). This should look fine on a pc monitor, but if you can get test scales like this looking right through your DVD player, you should have much better colors and details.

Originally posted by cyberbri
Yes, there is still a little bit of banding on Finding Nemo, but a lot of scenes I looked at were banding free... As far as I know, "Finding Nemo" has some ocean banding recorded on the disk.

I think this was because I calibrated not only the greyscale, but the red, green and blue scales as well. I'm not sure what you mean. How did you calibrate the color scales? With the color saturation control, or did you do each one individually?

With color up even slightly too high, the top end gets crushed and you lose highlight detail in the colors. And if that spectrum is crushed / not smooth, that can create banding. I found this fascinating. Using that test pattern to check for over-saturation in the colors was a very good idea. I'd like to try this too.

So if you're not on an HTPC and can't use those sorts of test pattern software, you'll need a test disk like Avia or DVE to get those color gradation patterns to tweak just right.

This should look fine on a pc monitor, but if you can get test scales like this looking right through your DVD player, you should have much better colors and details. Avia doesn't have color gradation patterns like that. It has a "Color Decoder Check" test pattern, but the patches are not adjacent to each other, so you can't tell whether crushing is occurring or not. Does DVE have scales like that?

Gary

I'm not sure about DVE. The color bar pattern I posted a shot of, from the Phillips Pattern Generator, worked very well. Yes, I used the individual color gains/offsets to balance the greyscale and get rid of the colors there. Then I used contrast and color saturation from the user menu to fine tune the red/green/blue color bars I posted. With contrast and/or (especially) color up too high, the higher values bunch together - ie 100%, 95%, and 90% might all appear the same.

Originally posted by cyberbri
The color bar pattern I posted a shot of, from the Phillips Pattern Generator, worked very well. Yes it did.

I want a pattern like this from my DVD player. I could hook up a PC with the Philips Pattern Generator, but the RGB output values from the PC may not be the same as from my DVD player.

So, does anyone know of a DVD with a similar pattern?

Gary

Could you get the Phillips Program ( http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ ), do screengrabs of different patterns (like CRT Adjustments by color, showing 5 boxes on top bottom end, adjustable in either 1%, 2%, up to 5% steps), and burn those to a DVD player?

Originally posted by cyberbri
Could you get the Phillips Program ( http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ ), do screengrabs of different patterns (like CRT Adjustments by color, showing 5 boxes on top bottom end, adjustable in either 1%, 2%, up to 5% steps), and burn those to a DVD player? Not a bad idea at all. The only problem I could forsee, is not having control of what the burning software does with the image. Will it correctly convert to the Studio RGB range of digital values (16-235) or will it use PC RGB (0-255), or maybe something else in between? How could you know for sure? It would definitely affect your calibrations!

Gary

Burn a bunch of images, including ones with BTB, etc., and play it back on your HTPC to see if they look the same as they do when viewing them from the source. That way you could verify the levels.

Check your DVD player's manual and settings too. Some have black adjustment settings, so make sure you're using the right one.

I posted in another thread, but it probably belongs here.

My DVI picture is unacceptablely dark on my display. I'm not sure why. The best way I can describe it is that it has this "soap opera haze" over the entire picture. I have adjusted color and contrast settings to near their highest levels, which helps, but its still nowhere near as bright as my component hookup. Anyone have DVI connected and seeing a bright crisp picture?

Thanks

Bad DVI cable? Bad source (have you tried cable on mulitple devices?)?

Originally posted by macd23
My DVI picture is unacceptablely dark on my display. I'm not sure why. The best way I can describe it is that it has this "soap opera haze" over the entire picture. I have adjusted color and contrast settings to near their highest levels, which helps, but its still nowhere near as bright as my component hookup. Anyone have DVI connected and seeing a bright crisp picture? Yes, see a fantastic picture with DVI.

What is your source? If it is a DVD player, it may be one that suffers with black/white crush issues. Samsung players often do. Also, have you done a proper calibration of your TV with a good test disk like Avia or DVE in your player?

Gary

my only source is a motorola 6412 DVR cable box. I had it hooked up on my old non DVR motorola and that looked exactly the same way.


I cannot test on a dvd player as mine does not have DVI.

Is this the first time you've tried to use DVI? The possibility remains that the DVI input is in need of some service menu tweaks but I wouldn't jump to that as a first step

After the Samsung upgrade on my 507hlm my new firmware version is 319. I was wondering if anyone has the default settings for this version. I was feeling lucky the other night and went in the SM. Now I swear the picture seems softer/fuzzier/ than before I went in the SM. I know I change the gamma to 4 on all inputs but I"m afraid I may have inadvertantly changed something else. Also after getting the Samsung upgrade for tweaking sake would my set be considered a HLN?

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Is this the first time you've tried to use DVI? The possibility remains that the DVI input is in need of some service menu tweaks but I wouldn't jump to that as a first step

I tried using the DVI when I got the cable last year on my old motorola box, and it looked the same...dark and slightly hazy.

component is noticeably brighter.

Originally posted by joarda2
After the Samsung upgrade on my 507hlm my new firmware version is 319. I was wondering if anyone has the default settings for this version. I was feeling lucky the other night and went in the SM. Now I swear the picture seems softer/fuzzier/ than before I went in the SM. I know I change the gamma to 4 on all inputs but I"m afraid I may have inadvertantly changed something else. Also after getting the Samsung upgrade for tweaking sake would my set be considered a HLN?

Maybe this is better suited to the official M series thread?

Ie., I know on HLN models, gamma is set to 0, not 4. Check into that and see what it really should be set to.

I only posted here because I read about tweaks for versions in the 300's and my current version is now 319 so I figured that N tweaks would apply.Thanks for the info on gamma!

Joe

Originally posted by cyberbri
Maybe this is better suited to the official M series thread?

Ie., I know on HLN models, gamma is set to 0, not 4. Check into that and see what it really should be set to.

Yes, gamma set to zero works wonders for the picture on a HLN5065W.

Gamma 0 is not for everyone. I have had mine set there, as well as other calibration changes, for a couple of months. I am using an HLN 507 w/Comcast 6412 DVR. The '"0" setting provides, IMHO. a more film-like picture, not too overpowering. Tough to describe I would just experiment and see which you favor. Don't forget that each time you go into the SM the TV defaults back to "Dynamic" mode and you need to make adjustments there as well.

Good luck
JTMav

Originally posted by AkaStp
How so?

The picture looks better in MY OPINION. Check out the following Gama Thread (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=316560&highlight=o+gama) and draw your own conclusion.

Yes, so any time you are making adjustments in the Service Menu, you are viewing it through the Dynamic and Normal Color Tem presets. So if you set brightness and contrast in the Service Menu, then go back to different settings with your user preset, you are defeating your SM adjustments. I keep almost the same settings as Dynamic mode, just lowering the Color saturation from 65 to 50-55, and the sharpness setting down to 20 or so.


One of the biggest things I noticed when I switched my gamma to 0 was that the floating skin textures on SD cable channels was reduced almost completely.

Originally posted by allenn
The picture looks better in MY OPINION. Check out the following Gama Thread (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=316560&highlight=o+gama) and draw your own conclusion.

Note that different series require different settings, and sometimes different models within the same series. A HLP, HLN, HLM, etc. may need different gamma settings. Heck, you need to recalibrate br/ct/color balance settings with new light engines because they vary so much...

But for HLNs, I believe most professional calibrations end up with gamma set to 0, rather than the default 4. And this seems to give people the best results. You have to calibrate settings after changing the gamma setting, because it will throw other settings off.

Whats the coring setting? I see where it can be on or off but in my firmware version 319 the choices are 0,1 or 2

I originally thought I had an issue with my DVI port on either my HLN or my video card, but found that I saw the same issue on another input.

Here is the thread I started (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=532897) regarding my DVI input and my HTPC.


For the most part, the picture quality is great, phenomenal. But one thing that my setup seems to have problems with, no matter how I tweak it, is color gradations - as in Finding Nemo (small amount of banding), Ice Age (white skies show faint lines), The Incredibles (blue/green menus show faint banding / bad color gradations). I can also see a few off-colored lines in my silver task bar at the bottom of the screen. The problem seems to mainly be with greens/blues, although maybe that's just because most of the examples (Finding Nemo, Incred menus) use those colors. To some extent, I see the same sort of thing on my laptop's LCD screen, although the picture varies greatly depending on what angle you are viewing it from.



I have my Gamma set to 0, and I have checked the Delay setting (seems to affect reds the most).

And this happens not only on my DVI input from my HTPC, but I noticed it on my STB DVD player over Composite 1, looking at the Incredibles DVD, the "Set Up" Menu with its blue/green background. I am attaching a similar picture, with the right side being taken from Finding Nemo, and the left side showing a straight gradation in Photoshop using the same colors. On my HLN, the attached picture's left side shows an overall gradation, with splotches/bands of color that isn't blended completely with the rest - and the right side shows a ton of artifacts. On the Incredibles Set Up menu, it appears the same way, with small splotches of green sticking out from the rest. I also noticed this when watching Ice Age on my HTPC/DVI, in the white skies I'd sometimes see thin pink/light red lines, etc.


Has anyone else noticed this problem? Can anyone check the Set Up menu on the Incredibles DVD to see if you see the same problem? I'm wondering if my light engine is bad. I have calibrated and calibrated, but changing blue/green gains/offsets only moves the banding/patches, rather than making them blend properly.

This is on an HLN4365W, light engine replaced a month or two ago. Aside from this, the picture is amazing. But this is really annoying. I wouldn't mind springing for a professional calibration if I knew it could be fixed (as opposed to just being a bad light engine), but if this is just a weakness of the technology I guess I'll have to live with it.

Any comments? Can anyone check their Incredibles DVD, Set Up menu?

Thanks

Cyberbri,

The color banding with a HTPC is the reason why I abandoned using a HTPC. I used to have a Panasonic CRT RPTV 56" ISF'd at 720p that I used to drive with a HTPC. I could never resolve the banding issue on some scenes with some movies. And when I hooked up my old Panasonic RP-91(also via component) I never saw any banding.

After much searching in the HTPC forums here I saw some reference to the fact that software DVD decoders use a 16-bit space for decoding color information and it was stated that this could cause banding artifacts.

Now this was at least two years ago and with the latest software players/video cards/drivers this may of course no longer the case. But it was enough of a nuisance to cause me to purchase a Momitsu V880N and I haven't seen these color banding issues since on my HLN4365W.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the input. However I don't think it's simply an HTPC issue because I saw it over Composite 1 with my STB player (The Incredibles Set Up menu). I will go back and check some Finding Nemo scenes as well for this, but for the time being, I think it is the display and not the HTPC.

I have the same issue on mine, but way worse than yours...couldn't even see yours in your posted image....Same on all inputs, and only since they replaced the light engine for noisy fan.

New engine coming Monday...I'll let you know if it helps.

The image I posted itself is fine. But when I view that on my DLP through my HTPC, it looks bad.

So you noticed it starting to happen when they replaced the light engine? I remember seeing slight banding in Finding Nemo even before my light engine change a few months ago.

Before the replacement, I only saw it on really poor quality source material...Now I see it on everything, in dimly lit scenes, skies, fog, smoke, etc...really, really bad.

Color wheel delay will impact banding. Freeze the Nemo scene and see if you can minimize banding making slight adjustments to delay.

Of course this will also alter your grayscale, but it might be worth a try.

I played with delay quite a bit...It moved the bands but did not eliminate them.

Originally posted by moonhawk
Before the replacement, I only saw it on really poor quality source material...Now I see it on everything, in dimly lit scenes, skies, fog, smoke, etc...really, really bad.

With a new light engine you will need to re-calibrate. I recently did, about a month and a half or two months ago. I posted about it on this thread, so you might look for it.

Thanks...I've checked that out already, as I had posted about my problem back awhile ago when the LE was first replaced....:)

Not being satisfied with the way my settings were, I spent some time last night trying to tweak the service menu a little more.

I used some different test pattern generators, and found on the rainbow spectrum, I was missing the turquoise between blue and green. The green just seems to end, and the turquoise area appears as white blending into blue. The right side of the blue blends into a purple-> magenta, but doesn't appear to blend as much on my DLP (this may have to do with color offset/gain levels, though). No matter what offsets/gains I change, I can't get that to look right. So I think my color decoder in my Light Engine is bad... Argh, now I have to call Samsung and get it replaced again... I don't remember checking the same thing on my last one, but they replaced the whole thing just to fix a noise color wheel/fan, instead of just replacing those parts.

I have attached a picture of the spectrum in bmp format, zipped in a zip folder. I got this NEC Monitor Test pattern generator from HERE (http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/).

Actually it turns out my LE is fine, or at least not as bad as I thought. I was just remembering what I was seeing the night before wrong. Oops.

I went through and re-balanced my r/g/b gains/offsets with the color color spectrum and some other patterns in the NEC program, and cross referenced with Phillips Pattern Generator and DVE screens.

I still have trouble with the blue/green color gradation found in the picture on the first post, but everything else appears to be fine. I think this is more "ineherent with the technology", partly because I don't feel like calling to complain to get a new LE and having to re-calibrate the inputs to match the new LE at this point...

Originally posted by cyberbri
I still have trouble with the blue/green color gradation found in the picture on the first post, but everything else appears to be fine. I think this is more "ineherent with the technology", partly because I don't feel like calling to complain to get a new LE and having to re-calibrate the inputs to match the new LE at this point... Using Photoshop, I once generated perfect ramp patterns in red, green, blue and gray (digital 0-255). Over a DVI connection, I was amazed at how banded they all looked on my HLN. The banding is relatively minor from a normal viewing distance, but its there, mostly because of the non-linear digital steps in the gamma correction circuit, but I'm sure there are further limitations in the pulse-code-modulated DMD response too. (My DVI LCD monitor displays the same image perfectly smoothly, with the exception of one or two minor bands somewhere near the middle of the ramp). Each of my 3 light-engines behaved slightly differently, putting the banding in different places.

Nevertheless, to minimize the problem, be sure to follow the method here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5120358#post5120358) of maximizing contrast ratio to the Red output (the color in shortest supply on the Samsung DLP). This will ensure that you will get the very best results that are possible with your particular light-engine.

The less of that red output you're actually using, the worse the banding will be in all of the colors, because; 1) you will not be using all of the digital steps that are available to you, and 2) the other colors have to track that reduced range for 6500K. The more steps used, the better the color resolution!

For a similar reason, use 100% contrast in the user menu. Then, if the banding still looks significantly worse than it should (compared with another similar set) call Samsung.

Gary

Thanks, Gary. That's the first time I took the time to read all the steps. I like your method of base-lining with red and adjusting the other colors to get a good grayscale. I will definitely do that the next time I get the itch to re-tweak the settings. And I will add a link to that post and note in my Calibration thread (see signature).

I also noticed that the nemo-banding.bmp is at 24-bit depth. I wonder if it would look better/different on my DLP if it was saved in 32-bit depth.


One thing that I found that was hard to tell with primary color bars/gradation and greyscale was getting the purple and blues in the bottom of the attached bmp to look correct. I had to go to this screen and slightly tweak the blues/reds to get the purple to look right, etc.

I'm attaching another pattern from Display Mate (http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/), showing greyscale and r/g/b in 64 gradations. On my DLP, the top three look fine, but I have problems getting the blue one to look absolutely correct.

Originally posted by cyberbri
I also noticed that the nemo-banding.bmp is at 24-bit depth. I wonder if it would look better/different on my DLP if it was saved in 32-bit depth. I doubt it. DLP is only 8-bit per color.

Originally posted by cyberbri
One thing that I found that was hard to tell with primary color bars/gradation and greyscale was getting the purple and blues in the bottom of the attached bmp to look correct. I had to go to this screen and slightly tweak the blues/reds to get the purple to look right, etc. One thing to remember, is that DLP has a different color gamut to CRT, LCD, etc, so it will look slightly different. The only way to get it right is to make sure the DELAY setting is right first, then do a proper grayscale calibration, and finally, a color decoder check to make sure that your saturation is set correctly and that you have even color output with all 3 colors. That will give you the best color-rendering it is capable of.

Gary

Thanks again.

By "get the purples right," I mean that with certain settings, the purple section didn't even look purple.

Originally posted by cyberbri
On my DLP, the top three look fine, but I have problems getting the blue one to look absolutely correct. Then something is wrong. Have another stab at calibrating, following all the steps. But, again, be sure to get the DELAY setting correct before you start.

Originally posted by cyberbri
By "get the purples right," I mean that with certain settings, the purple section didn't even look purple. Same as above.

Gary

This is a very good question. The technically correct way is to take an oscilloscope and a photo cell and adjust the delay until you get a very square wave on the oscilloscipe, meaning the the micro mirrors are turned fully "off" when the color wheel transitions between say the red and blue filter) (see attached photo). Not many people have access to such equipment.

The HLN manual says to adjust delay until you get the deepest red. This is something you can do if you have a colorimeter and you adjust the delay until you get the largest x reading on a CIE gamut chart (e.g., the most saturated red).

My preferred way is to put up a luminance ramp with a smooth transition between 100% white and 100% black (digital luminance levels 16-235). I adjust the delay to minimize any banding or coloring in the black to white transition.

I would be interested in hearing other methods.

FYI: If you look at the oscilloscope photo, the three columns represent the 3 color wheel filters. The square wave shows that the micro mirrors are turning full on and off in sync with each filter on the wheel.

Color Wheel:

IIRC, the default is about 224.
I have noticed that the Delay affects reds the most. If I go above 224, I start to see odd colorations in the darker reds (turns purple/blue, etc.). If I go too low, lower than about 214 or 212 or so, the reds lose their vibrancy and start to look a little orange.

I noticed this the first time when I had my LE replaced, and noticed the dark reds appeared purple - shirts/clothes, even reddish skin tones took on a purplish tone.

Next time I'm in the SM, I'll try adjusting the delay while viewing a 16-235 ramp and see if I notice any changes. But if you look at the Color Bars picture I have posted to the top message on this page, and adjust the Delay up and down, you can see the darker red areas (and also blue areas) shift when it's too high, and the reds turning more orange when it's too low.

If you are seeing purple instead of red, it is likely because your mirrors are "on" as the wheel is transitioning between the red and blue filter. In your case, you may get the best results using the "most-saturated-red" method.

Yes, I am referring to the DELAY parameter in the service menu.

Update...

My latest...(third)...light engine has been in for a week now, and I am glad to report ZERO color banding.

As I reported earlier, my first one was fine but was replaced due to noisy fan bearings...the one they replaced it with had MAJOR color banding, despite all manner of tweaks.

This one seems to be fine.

Ultimate Electronics came through--I strongly recommend buying the extended warranty with these puppies, because the bill on this 2nd repair would have been almost $1800.00!!--the first repair was covered by Samsung.

Anyway, haven't had time to do any sort of tweak on this one, other thatn user menu, but the PQ is really good.

I have a Samsung 50" DLP. I've noticed some flickering lately, and a several nights ago it had to cycle 3 times before the lamp came on. This happened 1 other time since, and hasn't happened in a few days.

The tv is about 18 months old, and the lamp only has about 2000 hours on it. Is this likely a lamp problem, or is something else going bad?

Thanks,

John

I don't know if a dying bulb would cause that or not, sounds like a ballast problem to me.

I thought the bulbs only had a rated life of 2000 hours. I think it is time to get a replacement bulb.

I believe the original 'stated' lamp life was 8000 hours. They may have revised that down to 6000 at one point, but the lamp should last more than 2000.

Of course, many people have reported lamp failures much earlier than that so YMMV.

I'm curious, but are there any color decoder parameters in the service menu? How accurate do you find the color decoder out of the box(any red-push)?

I'm curious, but are there any color decoder parameters in the service menu? How accurate do you find the color decoder out of the box(any red-push)?
According to this post by GSB there are color decoder parameters available, but only via Component.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5033273&&#post5033273

The HLN color decoder is borked. Especially in regard to greens.

Thanks a lot for the link.

I'm surprised that color decoder parameters aren't available with DVI. If the DVI input was completely bypassing the color decoder then that would make sense but I see that you can still adjust color saturation from the user menu so the DVI input must be going through a color encoder and decoder.

Yes, the color decoder can only be adjusted for analog connections, not DVI. A saturation control is not necessarily part of the color decoder.

On my set, the DVI input showed a 10% drop in the green output, but this COULD be by design - to reduce the "neon" greens that this set is known for. The Red and Blue outputs are fine. When properly calibrated, the resulting picture looks just as good as it does on a set with no drop in green. In fact, I found that the picture on component looked best if I deliberately set the color decoder the same way (-10% on green). The new HLP models do not seem to have the same issue - maybe their colorwheel filters are slightly different.

Gary

Does anyone know what this means...I have a HLN617W and when I turn it on the lamp light blinks normally and the fan starts, the color wheel seems to begin to spin but then makes a funny high-pitched whirring sound then stops, the TV tries the turn-on procedure several times before all three light blink and it shuts off. I have a service plan with Circuit City and they said over the phone that it was the lamp and they would send me a new one or send a tech out to replace but of course it will be *quicker* if they just send me the lamp, the TV was purchased on 3/3/04 and I think its the color wheel, which has already been replaced once...

Adoble,

I think that those symptoms do point to a bad lamp. I had the same trouble a while back. Even if it doesn't fix it you get a new lamp for free.

-Rob

Does anyone know what this means...I have a HLN617W and when I turn it on the lamp light blinks normally and the fan starts, the color wheel seems to begin to spin but then makes a funny high-pitched whirring sound then stops, the TV tries the turn-on procedure several times before all three light blink and it shuts off. I have a service plan with Circuit City and they said over the phone that it was the lamp and they would send me a new one or send a tech out to replace but of course it will be *quicker* if they just send me the lamp, the TV was purchased on 3/3/04 and I think its the color wheel, which has already been replaced once...

I had a similar issue but mine turned out to be the digital board that was bad.

The high-pitched sound could be the ballast trying to ignite the bulb. Mine made a similar noise, and I thought it was the colorwheel, but it was just the bulb. Take the bulb and give it a try. As was mentioned, it never hurts to get a new bulb.

I have an HLN5065W, can you tell me how to see how many hours I have on my bulb?

THANKS!

The service menu will show you how many hours are left on your bulb. I don't think it will tell you how many are on your bulb, though. I also don't know how accurate this really is, but it's probably a good estimate.

Ummm... no. The Service Menu will show how many hours your currently have on your bulb... not how many you have LEFT. So if you've watched tv for 5 hours, it will say "5 Hours".

As for accuracy... it should be pretty much spot-on as long as you have never accidentally or purposefully reset the lamp hour timer.

Regs,
Jeff

I think it works the other way. It shows you how many hours you have used. Generally you get 6,000-8,000 hours.

You're right, rshear. I checked it and the number has grown since the last time I'd checked it. 300hrs in 6 weeks - maybe I should limit SportsCenter to once a day.

I know this is the tweaks thread but. . .

I'm having several problems with my N and have called the warranty people. I just wanted to get an educated take on what might be wrong so I don't get the business from the tech.

I'm running a SA8300DVR into a 43 hln.

Here are the problems I'm having with frequency indicated in the last week or so. Almost every time I watch the set I get one of these.

1. (several times) frozen image that looks like a negative photo of the last image on screen. Have to unplug to get tv to work again.

2. (once) the infamous three blinking lights - but bulb not burned out. Have to unplug to fix.

3. (several times)single blinking light after trying to power on. Set never comes on, light continues to blink, and can't power off. Have to unplug.

4. (once) refusal to access the source menu to change from dvd to tv for ex. have to unplug to fix.

5. (continually) have to reset the hd settings on the sa box after turning off and then on the set. SA box reverts to sending everything to the tv in 480 - even if not powered off. Everything is displayed in a 16:9 box that is smaller than the screen - including hd channels. (I'm using HDMI to DVI)

6. (once) Image on tv started flickering from side to side. Only way to fix was to unplug set.

It seems that I've got some serious issues - any clues?

thanks.

The only problem I ever had was the infamous 3 blinking lights without the bulb being dead as well. But they replaced the bulb anyways and all has been working well

It seems that I've got some serious issues - any clues? Yes, you have a dud! Get it fixed.

Gary

Thanks! I knew I was missing something. ;)

Hi, I'm the newbie. I'm considering picking up the HLN437W for my family room (DVD's for my toddler, Trading Spaces & crap like that for my wife, and HD sports when I'm not upstairs watching them on my projector). It seems like I can get a pretty good deal on one, compared to other TV's of comparable size, but I wanted to know if a 50-page thread on tweaks for this Samsung lineup should be seen as a deterrent. I've read through some of the thread, and call me lazy, but I'm not going to go back and read all of it. Can someone give me a "Cliff's Notes" version of how likely I am to have problems with this set, and how serious they will be? Thanks in advance.

Cliff Notes:
You will have a problem if you think the audio and video should be in sync.
The picture can be calibrated/tweaked to give you a good sharp picture but blacks will be a problem.
If anyone is a gamer there may be a delay causing the gamer increased frustration.
If you can get a latter model with the latest firmware update, this will minimize but not eliminate your frustration.
Otherwise, sit back, relax and enjoy!

Cliff Notes:
You will have a problem if you think the audio and video should be in sync.
I hadn't picked up on that one...that could present a problem. I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, and little things like that annoy me.

The picture can be calibrated/tweaked to give you a good sharp picture but blacks will be a problem.
What does race have to do with it? Sorry, just a little newbie humor.

If anyone is a gamer there may be a delay causing the gamer increased frustration.
Not a problem. I don't play video games, and I'll do my best to keep my (currently 20-month-old) son from getting sucked into playing them for as long as possible.

If you can get a latter model with the latest firmware update, this will minimize but not eliminate your frustration.
Otherwise, sit back, relax and enjoy!
I'll keep that in mind - much thanks for breaking it down for a rookie. I really appreciate it.

OK, the test patterns on HDNET measure out identically to AVIA or DVE via my Bravo D1 thru DVI, so I'm staying with the adjustments I posted.

There are several possible issues with your setup:

1. The TS16x series probably has a different Black (and possibly White) level than the HD Tivo or Bravo D1, so I would expect you to need different SubB and SubC levels.

2. A 480 external input to a Samsung will have a output Black level 7.5 IRE above the Black level from a 720 or 1080 source (this has been previously reported, and I observed it when I had a TS-360).

3. When you feed Component to the HLN you have a whole additional set of adjustments that can modify what the SubB and SubC settings do.

Shimmering may be normal on some grid patterns of the type you noted, especially if an interlace mode is in use.

The upshot is my results would only be applicable to straight DVI sources with correct levels, and will be wrong by definition with other non-conformant DVI or non-DVI sources.

I have hln 467w 309 i want to calibrate using avia disc dvd player is a arcam dv79 and im using kimber cables component.i would like to now where to start .and what would take away sparklies? and graininess?

Check out the HTPC calibration thread in my signature (here as well: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=523614 ). It's geared towards HTPCs, but it addresses a lot of things, like DVE/Avia patterns, my experiences calibrating my Samsung HLN, etc. There are links in that thread to other "how to use test patterns to calibrate" threads as well - just scan for the links.

Is it just my HLN4365? on the test patterns with close lines or in a picture where someone is wearing a pin strip suit or shirt, Windows on a buiding seen from a distance, there is a vibrating that I see. That used to be very common in 480I called a harringbone effect and used to sometimes break up in rainbows. On the HLN it just looks like it is having problems registering thin lines. Is this common and is there an easy fix to it on in the SM? I had Greg L. calibrate my set but he couldn't do anything with it.

Thanks guys

The moire effect?

If it's really a problem, try turning off DNIE. Sharpness should also be at 0 or close to 0.

I noticed that once I calibrated properly, there wasn't much of a color/saturation/gamma difference between DNIE on/off at all (very minor), but I could tell a big difference in the amount of sharpening (mainly on HD and DVD stuff - HD/DVD looks soft without it on in comparison). But when I flip to Jay Leno or Conan in HD, I can see sort of what you are describing in the building window patterns in the background.

where do i start adjusting in service menu ?k2ue said something about that when using components more options are avaliable

What do you have for input devices and test/setup material? What are you trying to fix on the set?

The easiest tweak is changing the gamma setting to 0 in the top menu of the service menu. Then re-adjust brightness(black level) and contrast(white level) in your user menu.

Setting your color temp to Warm 1 in the user menu will help as well - unless you go in and calibrate color temp with the r/g/b gains/offsets yourself.


Remember that when you enter the service menu, it resets your color temp to Normal and your picture settings to Dynamic -- so anything you do in the service menu is being viewed through Dynamic levels.

After changing gamma to 0, your user menu settings might look something like this:
Color temp - Warm 1
Contrast 90-95
Brightness - 45-55
Sharpness - 0-25
Color 40-55

HTH

The moire effect?

If it's really a problem, try turning off DNIE. Sharpness should also be at 0 or close to 0.

I noticed that once I calibrated properly, there wasn't much of a color/saturation/gamma difference between DNIE on/off at all (very minor), but I could tell a big difference in the amount of sharpening (mainly on HD and DVD stuff - HD/DVD looks soft without it on in comparison). But when I flip to Jay Leno or Conan in HD, I can see sort of what you are describing in the building window patterns in the background.

Thanks, I will give it a shot. I am pleased that I am not the only one who sees it. I was thinking I should go to the eye doctor. lol Iwill try it with DNIE off and sharpness turned way down.

my dvd is arcam dv 79 and using kimber cable componets .id like not to see sparlies and get the best picture possible

Sparklies? As in the digital pixels flashing white? I have seen sparklies on HD broadcasts, but never on DVD.

What are you seeing that you call "sparklies"?



To get the best picture possible, it's best to get your display professionally calibrated by an ISF technician. Costs range from $250-400, depending on the number of inputs you do, and if you have to pay extra to bring someone in from outside your area. There are plenty or reputable guys on the boards here - do a "slow" search to get best results. There have also been people creating threads like "I just got my Sammy HLX... professionally calibrated!"