Oh, thank you. I'll have to go back and download that.

Excuse the ignorant question, but with a P4, it's the SSE/2 version I need, right?

And just a suggestion - it would be really helpful if you or someone had the most up to date link for dl'ing the newest versions of ffdshow in their signature, so we could always be able to find the newest stuff just by coming here and looking. Yahoo'ing it brings up a site that's about a year old, and the host site seems to have moved around a few times in the last few months, IIRC.

Thanks.

I dont have a mirror for the older versions since the new will be downloadable on the org. sourceforge site and Athos site.

http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/
and
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow/

i will apply a direct DL link if the new version is rdy for download

Can someone give me a link to the best version for my P4 2.6 w HT.
I looked throught the above links for the 07-09 version and I do not see it there.
What am I missing?

Originally posted by pbpatel98
blackmax2k1,

This is how I get to it:

1) Click Advanced under the Settings tab for Display Properties dialog.
2) Goto SMARTGART(tm) tab
3) Make sure the Set AGP Speed is all the way to the right (mine is at 8X).
4) Make sure that Fast Write radio button is set to On.

Whenever I make a change on the screen I usually have to reboot. Also, I'm not sure if I mentioned this but Fast Writes have to be enabled in the BIOS before you can set it in Display Properties.

I don't have an option in BIOS to enable them, but I do have the radio button in the Control Panel, does that mean they are on? Updated my BIOS (ASUS P4PE), but still no option there.

Yeah, the http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ link goes from 6-29 to 7-18.

I found the 07-09 SSE2 one here:
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/FFDShow.htm

Thank you sir.
Found it.
Steve

Originally posted by JDLIVE
I don't have an option in BIOS to enable them, but I do have the radio button in the Control Panel, does that mean they are on? Updated my BIOS (ASUS P4PE), but still no option there.

I believe if you have the radio button and it's not grayed out then as long as it's set to On then Fast Writes should be enabled. Are you experiencing less performance than expected?

Originally posted by pbpatel98
Are you experiencing less performance than expected?

Well, I've had tearing problems with VMR9, but from what I've read it's not necessarily because of fast writes, there seems to be a number of things that can cause it. I've tried just about everything, maybe I just need a better HTPC and/or a video card upgrade.

Have you tried installing Direct X 9.0c yet? I still have a little tearing in VMR9 but it's SIGNIFICANTLY better now.

-Pat

Make sure you have installed the Intel chipset update that comes on the CD that you received with the mobo. Otherwise, the AGP port will not use fast writes, DMA, or a slew of other functions.

Vern

Have you tried installing Direct X 9.0c yet?

Yes, seemed to help a bit, but not enough.

Make sure you have installed the Intel chipset update that comes on the CD that you received with the mobo. Otherwise, the AGP port will not use fast writes, DMA, or a slew of other functions.

Thanks, I did that when I installed the system. Would those possibly have updates that could have come out since? I put this together over a year ago...

new SSE2 release up

NOTE: This is just a preview version, means its not as "rdy" as the older releases since im reworking kinda lots of stuff in the resizer and had no time to finish all.

I released this versions mainly cause milan added all this new audio stuff and this seemed usefull for the SSE2 version too.

PS: read the sse2 changelog first before u update since some small stuff is missing in this preview version!

u can download it from the sig location

Bugs/stuff per pm like alway's and gimme input how u like the new "fast" denoise3d mode.

New options in the preview version have apparently rendered this version incompatible with the presets of the immediately previous version.

As a result, an uninstall of the earlier version before installing the new will probably be required to avoid exceptions and exits when using the configuration panels.

Aside from that, this version seems pretty well behaved and appears to use somewhat less CPU.

Does it look like ffdshow is getting to the point to run 1440x960 resize lancos4, with filters on a P4 2.4 533fsb, 512megs ram?

Originally posted by stylinlp
Does it look like ffdshow is getting to the point to run 1440x960 resize lancos4, with filters on a P4 2.4 533fsb, 512megs ram?

I can run that now on a P4 2.66, along with Denoise3D. :)

Well if nothing else, I won't need to push the envelope on my OC anymore.

What's the fun in that, Madpoet? :D

Not much fun, but certainly much quieter and less heat ;)

Ok I'm lazy and i do not want to start going through this thread again.
I just started experimenting with some interlaced resolutions and i feel I get better results using interlaced alone than progressive alone w/o ffdshow. When I use progressive resolutions with FFDshow the image is the best I've been able to acheive so far.
So I'm wondering if i can use FFDshow to o/p interlaced resize of 1920X1080 and put to use the FFDshow sharpening and other tools.

Will there be a fast version for us people not having P4s or A64s ?

Nima

I'm doing a re-config at the moment, and have lost my old fddshow-settings.

What do you recommend for my X1 DLP?

Max resize is 1024x768 (P4 2,4 533) (PAL)
I'm thinking of these post's:

DScaler sharpen
Picture Properties?
Offset
Blur & NR (denoise3d, what more?)
Sharpen
Resize > settings (bicubic?)

I'm wondering about the correct order (1st, 2nd...) and the "correct" settings. I have, unfortunatly, no time for experiments at this time...

Thank's in advance!:)

Originally posted by Nima
Will there be a fast version for us people not having P4s or A64s ?

Nima

From post 2034: (posted by Andy in response to my question)

@TruckChase sorry but it's not a 5min job to convert sse2 code to mmx2 code and since i can only use sse2 code for a further 64bit testversion i will not do more mmx2 stuff.

So the answer would be no. It doesn't really make much sense anyhow to pour tons of time into optimizations that will be obsolete in a year since all the new CPUs have SSE2.

Originally posted by TruckChase!
So the answer would be no. It doesn't really make much sense anyhow to pour tons of time into optimizations that will be obsolete in a year since all the new CPUs have SSE2.

Will Athos be incorporating the Denoise3D optimazations into his non-SSE2 builds?

I'm having some weird results with various FFDshow versions.

I have a Athlon XP 2100+, which doesn't support SSE2.

But Andy's SSE2-optimized version works fine, I can get 1600x1200 resize with xvid and 800x600 with dvd's.

I tried the normal version (latest) and all I get is 100% processor usage with the same settings. Weird.

Any1 happen to know why this is?

//Edit

I just tried the june version of the normal FFDshow and it laggs the same way. I'm reverting to the july 9th SSE-version until I hear better.

Reverted to the SSE2 version but now that one gives me an error "An Exception occured while trying to run "ffdshow.ax,configure"

Nice. :) Reverting then to the normal versions work fine, but those give 100% processor usage.

Now it seems I can't run the SSE2 version at all, even after FFDshow total reinstall. But I think I did have it before, since I had those suggestions of not using higher than Lanczos 4.0 etc, those are not supposed to be in a non-SSE2 version right?

What the hell is going on, please help. :)

//Edit2

The 100% isn't a bug with the normal version though.. I can run xvid's smoothly on 1024x768 resize, with DVD's I probably can't resize at all now. I don't really understand why this is, I used to do it 1600x1200 with the SSE2-version, but now the SSE2 version doesn't run at all.

I get the exception error as well. :(
I am using an Athlon 2600+.

Athlon64/nForce3 250/WinXP + 0801a "preview" ffdshow = exception in ffdshow.ax. :( Resize doesn't work properly and when I try to bring up the configuration, I get the exception after 2 seconds.

Sabbe and Nima,

Uninstall your current and try this one: http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/athos/ffdshow-20040718.exe

Let me know what you think!

U need to totally uninstall any previous versions of ffdshow before installing the 0801a version. The new one has diff settings for denoise and resize.

After install, be sure to enable a filter before denoise, or force input to yv12, or else ffdshow will crash.

AndyIEG,
When enabling 'FAST' for denoise3D, the sliders for lumi and chroma are disabled, is this part of your implementation? If so, what are the values for those settings when 'FAST' is enabled? Just curious......

Thanks for the new version :D

@bedo

This is the version I am currently using. It runs smoothly for me but I would like to use denoise 3D after resize.

bedo,

I have that version installed now.

Perhaps I just have a too slow CPU, but I can only resize to 1024x768 with xvid's and not at all with DVD's. This with XP2100+.

With Andy's SSE2 version (which doesn't work at all atm) I used to do it 1600x1200 with xvid's and 800x600 with dvd's.

But now I've noticed something strange. The effect of resize/sharpening is much more noticeable with this normal version, maybe it's because my processor doesn't support SSE2. It did resize with that version I'm sure of it, but the processor usage was much less and the effect much smaller.

I don't have a clue why this is, but perhaps someone knows how the SSE2 version works if run with non-SSE2 processor etc and could help me.

Anyways I'll probably stay with the normal version now and configure it so that I have resize xvid @ 1024x768 and with dvd's I'm only going to use dscaler sharpening.

I don't have any other filters applied and never had. (only resize+sharpening but now dvd-playback is going to be only dscaler sharpening).

I've been playing with ffdshow/TheaterTek recently after reading the beginners guide (http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1) but am now ready to move to a more intermediate level. If anyone is aware of any descriptions or guides to the various filters/settings in ffdshow I'd appreciate if you'd share! :)

I suppose the alternative is to just monkey with the settings until I find what looks best on my system but a little insight would go a long way.

mnn1265 tell us what your HTPC consists of hardware and software. Also what display your showing movies on. That way we could recommend settings.

The new "preview" version is fast! On my P4 2,53Ghz, 512RAM and Radeon 9000pro the cpu load is just 80-85%

TT
denoise3D 0.5 1.0 5.0 fast
Resize Lanczos4 1.20 1440x960
output YUV12

Desktop rez: 1280x720@72Hz

Everytime I try to check the denoise3d "Fast" checkbox, it ZP hangs.

Thanks stylinlp, any advice is greatly appreciated. :)

Sony VPL-HS20
106" Da-Lite Perm Wall - High Contrast Cinema Vision (HCCV)
audience sits ~13ft from screen
throw distance = 16'

-HTPC
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe Motherboard Gigabit LAN
P4 Northwood 3GHz, 800MHz FSB (oc @ 3.3GHz)
Kingston 512MB DDR400 PC3200 (x2 for 1GB total)
SilverStone Lascala SST-LC03 Desktop Case (Black)
Antec Solution Series SL450 450W PS
Chaintech AV710 VIA ENVY 24PT Sound Card
WD Caviar SE WD2500JD 250GB SATA 7200RPM
Logitech Cordless Desktop MX & MX 900 Bluetooth Optical Mouse Combo
Sony 1.44MB 3.5in Floppy Disk Drive (Black)
ASUS DRW-0804P DVD-+R/RW BLACK DRIVE 8 X
EVGA GEFORCE 6800GT 256MB AGP VIDEO CARD

-software
Windows XP Pro SP1
powerstrip
ffdshow
ReClock (in testing)
TheaterTek 1.5
PowerDVD & WinDVD4 (backup)
**Voom HDTV
**Time Warner digital cable w/ Roadrunner cable modem for surfing

-Audio
Denon AVR 3300
Vienna Acoustics Haydn fronts and surrounds
Vienna Acoustics Theatro center
Rel Strata III subwoofer

Thanks!

Originally posted by Goi
Everytime I try to check the denoise3d "Fast" checkbox, it ZP hangs.

sorry for the trouble, but like i sayed this version is just a preview/alpha version. I dont had this much time to test it, for me all looked oki.

And yes uninstalling the old version seems to be needed. For the ppl wich try to use the SSE2 version on a AthlonXP, use Athos versions pls.

The "FAST" denoise3d setting is a hardcoded setup without chroma/luma values, wich equals the old (0.5, 0.5, 5.0 HQ) settings. So no details are removed, only by the 3d (time) filter. The mode isnt 100% what the old HQ version did, but i checked some values and its "nearly" the same so try what u like more. If u disable the FAST switch the HQ mode is used like before.

PS: using the denoise filter after resize should work u just have to enable a other filter (level) before u resize to be sure yv12 input is forced to the resizer, but i could not see quality gains by using it after the resize so use the free cpu power for something else?

Pardon my ignorance, but how ones is forcing YV12 input and output in ffdshow?
The only place I see output setting is in the Overlay tab. Is this it? And what if I want to use WMR9? Should I uncheck the "use overlay mixer"?
I am still a bit confused about all this color space and video renderer thing.

Thanks

mnn1265 your sure have the ultimate home theater gear even thou its a digital projector :)
Your answer is easy. Just use Andy's latest ffdshow version optimized for Pentium SSE2.
Your system can handle any Resize Lancoz 4 that you want. Use Denoise3D of 0.5, 0.5, 5.0 HQ. Resize Sharpen also. Check earlier posts for settings. I think poeple are leaving off chroma sharpen off and Luma to 1.0

Originally posted by fp007
Pardon my ignorance, but how ones is forcing YV12 input and output in ffdshow?
The only place I see output setting is in the Overlay tab. Is this it? And what if I want to use WMR9? Should I uncheck the "use overlay mixer"?
I am still a bit confused about all this color space and video renderer thing.

Thanks

I think if you don't do anything, the video is in YUY2. But if you use a filter, it switches to YV12. Apparently it's best to do resize in YV12.

For output, there should be near the bottom of the list of filters an ouput section, and you can check all, or only YUY2 or YV12 or whatever. Personally I don't see any difference between YUY2 and YV12 for output (I have read about the difference, but can't see it on my system). With both I still have to change my levels to output at 16/235 instead of 0/255.

cyberbri I thought we were suppose to change our Input to 16/235 and keep the output at 0/255using YV12

I dunno. All I know is that with both at 0/255, my picture is way too dark - no shadow detail. Raising input black makes it even darker. The only remedy for me was to raise output black to 16 (so I brought white output to 235 as well).

I used the THX calibration on the Monsters Inc to work with the output levels. I had problems trying to compensate for the darks and was using gamma and luminance boost, but it finally looked right when I just used Levels.

Besides that, my two shadow detail reference scenes are the "Upgrades" scene, Chapter 3 or so, in Matrix Reloaded (looking to see the buttons, etc. on Neo's coat as he is handed the earpiece), and the scene in the cave near the end of Harry Potter-COS, with the giant spider talking, looking for detail in his face.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, who knows. But like I said, I couldn't tell any difference when switching between YV12 and YUY2 output...

mnn1265 your sure have the ultimate home theater gear even thou its a digital projector
Well, I have to remain humble so I wouldn't want perfection! :p

Just use Andy's latest ffdshow version optimized for Pentium SSE2.
Your system can handle any Resize Lancoz 4 that you want. Use Denoise3D of 0.5, 0.5, 5.0 HQ. Resize Sharpen also. Check earlier posts for settings. I think poeple are leaving off chroma sharpen off and Luma to 1.0
Thanks much! That's something for me to chew-on for awhile. A few of the settings you mentioned I already have and I'll go futz with the rest!

I will disagree that it can handle any size he wants. Mine is very similar and OC'd slightly higher, and I cannot resize 3x NTSC DVD without it bogging down ;)

Installed the new version and was able to bump resize from 1440x960 to 1920x1080. I tried doing denoise after resize, and not only did it fail, it seems to have broken something. ZP kept dying even after I changed the denoise back to before resize. I had to switch from the free mpeg decoder that I had been using back to Sonic. Resintalled both the free decoder and ffdshow, but ZP still died. Didn't spend a lot of time looking into it, will have to check it again tonight when I get home.

@AndyIEG:

do you think is possible to add (maybe you can ask to Milan too:) ) to add a video delay function (up to 1-2 seconds) in ffdshow?

It would be very useful to use in combo with BruteFir or AlmusVCU with DRC filters for full digital room equalization.:cool:

Originally posted by cyberbri
I think if you don't do anything, the video is in YUY2. But if you use a filter, it switches to YV12. Apparently it's best to do resize in YV12.

For output, there should be near the bottom of the list of filters an ouput section, and you can check all, or only YUY2 or YV12 or whatever. Personally I don't see any difference between YUY2 and YV12 for output (I have read about the difference, but can't see it on my system). With both I still have to change my levels to output at 16/235 instead of 0/255.

I'm also wanting to change to YV12. One question though do we have to enable the output section via a check in the output checkbox or does simply checking only yv12 and unchecking everything else work okay? It seems like putting a check in the "output" checkbox changes the gamma and other picture settings which might not be what people want....

Originally posted by cyberbri
With both I still have to change my levels to output at 16/235 instead of 0/255.

Stupid question I'm sure BUT how do you do this?!?! :)

Thanks!

The Levels filter. There's a white box for a histogram, with sliders for input and output, plus a gamma at the bottom.

Originally posted by cyberbri
The Levels filter. There's a white box for a histogram, with sliders for input and output, plus a gamma at the bottom.

OMFG! Thank you!! Someone's going be playing tonight!!! :)

<never even noticed that before...>
Could you please give me a screenshot of settings for levels or advise correct setup for that page?

Sabbe and Nima,

I'm not suprised at your results, I have a 1800+ that won't do 1152x768 so I don't even bother trying to resize on that. My HTPC is a 2800+ and it will allow me to use denoise3D, avisynth, and resize at 1440x960 with Lanczos 4 with the version I suggested.

Sorry, maybe a cpu upgrade? It is worth it!

I can do 1440*720 resize and denoise 3D before that with the version you suggested. Athlon 2400+ is the CPU. :D
But as I said a faster version for us "lower" Athlons which would allow the use of denoise 3D after resize would be bliss. :)

Is AviSynth needed anymore? I read this FAQ and it's usage seemed to come and go depending on the version of ffdshow being released. Last I heard Carsten was able to use it to get around a problem with the ATI driver that caused it to use HDTV colorspace when the DVD was resized to >= 1280x720. Is this still the case? If so why isn't everyone using AviSynth and correcting the color space problem?

Also how does one enable YV12 output? Since the YV12 output checkbox is a setting under "output", which is nested under "overlay" do I need to check the "overlay" checkbox? Doing so seems like it would enable a whole host of settings such as gamma control that I may not want...

Note: Edited to more precisely describe how to get yv12 output enabled...

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
Is AviSynth needed anymore? I read this FAQ and it's usage seemed to come and go depending on the version of ffdshow being released. Last I heard Carsten was able to use it to get around a problem with the ATI driver that caused it to use HDTV colorspace when the DVD was resized to >= 1280x720. Is this still the case? If so why isn't everyone using AviSynth and correcting the color space problem?

The Carsten post you refer to is what I'm going on...

<<Also how does one enable YV12 output? Since the YV12 output checkbox is a setting under "output", do I need to check the output checkbox?>>

Yes, checking that box will enable YV12 output.

There is no "output" checkbox, only a checkbox beside "YV12" inside the Output screen. So you only have to check that.

Originally posted by AndyIEG
PS: some little notes on your denoise3d settings, all values from luma/chroma 0-0.8 will result in the same internal coefs aka it dont matter what u use. Also the coefs for time: 4-6 are nearly identical so dont waste time to try find the best setup since there is no diff. in those ranges.

see ya next week

So based on what Andy posted a while back, is the following considered to be an efficient FFDShow configuration (i.e. most bang for my buck)

Denoise3D set to Luma=0.0, Chroma=1.0, Time=5, and HQ
DScaler Sharpen @ 32
1440x1440 Lanczos4
Luma = 0.8 and Chroma = 0

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
There is no "output" checkbox, only a checkbox beside "YV12" inside the Output screen. So you only have to check that.

Great thanks for the info.

Also just to clarify I meant does one need to check the "overlay" checkbox to get the features in the output menu to work but now that I look at it carefully the output menu isn't directly nested under the overlay checkbox. Since output doesn't have it's own checkbox it looked like it was nested under "overlay". This is what happens when you're futzing with ffdshow at midnight lol. ;)

Thanks for the clarification though.

Ok. I am almost totally confused now. I *thought* I was using ffdshow in conjunction with ZP to play my DVDs, but I don't think this is the case...

Could someone tell me how to get ZP working with WinDVD video decoder(I hear this is the preferred video decoder) AND use the ffdshow filters that everyone seems to be fond of?

I have ffdshow installed on the HTPC, and can access it through the "Additional filters" section of ZP, but when I try to play a DVD in ZP, I get an error reporting:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Filter Connection Error:
[Intervideo Video Decoder].Video Output --> [FFDShow Video Processor].in
.
.
.
Additional Information:
80040207: There is no common media type between these pins.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any suggestions?

If you want YV12 output from FFDShow you should should tick ONLY YV12 on the output page.
All other outputs should be UNTICKED.
Overlay can be left unticked.


Regards,

Owen
___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
So based on what Andy posted a while back, is the following considered to be an efficient FFDShow configuration (i.e. most bang for my buck)

Denoise3D set to Luma=0.0, Chroma=1.0, Time=5, and HQ
DScaler Sharpen @ 32
1440x1440 Lanczos4
Luma = 0.8 and Chroma = 0

No, not IMHO.

Denoise3d L=0.0-0.5, C=0.5-1.0 T=5.0 (depends on personal tast and display)
The use of Descaler sharpen is very display dependant. Good display should not need it.
Resize 1440x960 for NTSC or 1440x1153 for PAL or your display resolution if it is about the same or higher with Lanczos4 L=whatever, C=0


Regards,

Owen
___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by Owen
No, not IMHO.
Denoise3d L=0.0-0.5, C=0.5-1.0 T=5.0 (depends on personal tast and display)


L=0.0-0.5 == 0
C=0.0-0.5 == 0

means the precalced coefs for those input values are all zero, for the chroma/luma coef array. The array starts to be filled with values at 0.8+

So what u see with "Denoise3d L=0.0-0.5, C=0.5-1.0 T=5.0" is the 0.8-1.0 Chroma effect.

Hi there. I have read alot about these Windvd decoders ,Im using the Sonic decoder pack, and it looks great . Is there any real gain in picture quality to go to the Windvd docoders??

Regards

Originally posted by AndyIEG
L=0.0-0.5 == 0
C=0.0-0.5 == 0

means the precalced coefs for those input values are all zero, for the chroma/luma coef array. The array starts to be filled with values at 0.8+

So what u see with "Denoise3d L=0.0-0.5, C=0.5-1.0 T=5.0" is the 0.8-1.0 Chroma effect.

That's why I posted my previous question...

Given this information about the "coef array", can anyone test Andy's info. for apparent picture quality changes.

Thing is, I understand the "coef array" is unchanged, but obviously people like Owen are seeing differences there. I'm not at home, and would like to know if people are seeing differences there.

Originally posted by Owen
The use of Descaler sharpen is very display dependant. Good display should not need it.


I have a Sony GWIII for a display, is this a "good" display. My desktop rez with 1:1 pixel ratio is 1384x760 on it.

I find that Dscaler provides some added detail at low levels, but not sure if this is just edge enhancement or not.

Originally posted by Pratticus
Ok. I am almost totally confused now. I *thought* I was using ffdshow in conjunction with ZP to play my DVDs, but I don't think this is the case...

Could someone tell me how to get ZP working with WinDVD video decoder(I hear this is the preferred video decoder) AND use the ffdshow filters that everyone seems to be fond of?

I have ffdshow installed on the HTPC, and can access it through the "Additional filters" section of ZP, but when I try to play a DVD in ZP, I get an error reporting:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Filter Connection Error:
[Intervideo Video Decoder].Video Output --> [FFDShow Video Processor].in
.
.
.
Additional Information:
80040207: There is no common media type between these pins.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any suggestions?

I get the same error...I haven't had a chance to do any troubleshooting at this point though. I'll let ya know if I figure it out (or someone who has already figured it out can post here...)

I think you get that error when you don't have Raw Video enabled in FFDShow. You need to go to the "Codecs" section in FFDShow and select "Enable" from the dropdown menu next to Raw Video.

Originally posted by Tully
Hi there. I have read alot about these Windvd decoders ,Im using the Sonic decoder pack, and it looks great . Is there any real gain in picture quality to go to the Windvd docoders??

Regards

Yes. And Elecard is even better.

Really? I'm glad the Sonic decoders didn't work when I tried to dl them. I had been having problems with my WinDVD 4 codecs, tried Sonic, since they're the ones mentioned on the DVD Postprocessing site, and couldn't get them to work. So I tried the free trial of WinDVD 6, and the codecs work great. No more freezing screens every 5 minutes.

Hi,

I have a problem using ffdshow. I have a p4 2.8GHz with 512Mb RAM. I use Zoomplayer + sonic (video) and windvd (audio) + ffdshow (gradual noise 28, resize 960x720 lanzcos4 output YV12) + reclock 1.4. It works fine with a CPU charge of 75-80%. But when I try to increase the resize res. to 1280x960, I have my CPU charge at 95-100%. I heard that some people managed to get an even higher res. in resize with the same kind of CPU speed without any prb. Without ffdshow my CPU charge is 15-20%. So what is wrong with my configuration?

P.S: I have removed the gradual noise, changed sonic to windvd (video), removed reclock, set overlay output, set the HyperThreading option and remove it. With a resize of 1280x960, I have my CPU charge still at 95-100% :confused: :confused: :confused:
Help me!!! ;)

Probably most critical question is which version of ffdshow are you using? With Andy's latest preview version I undid my overclock (2.6 was running at 3.2) and I can still do Denoise3D (FAST + 5 time), 1440x960 resize with Lanzcos 4 L sharpen 1.2 and reclock 1.4 out. Even running at 2.6 I'm not going above 50% CPU utilization on the one virtual CPU doing work (for 24fps film material). I also have girder, AnyDVD and powerstrip running in the background (windvd 5 video and audio codecs).

You need to put some filter before the resizze to get a good benefit (this is the only way I know of to have ffdshow convert to yv12 internally) so removing gradual probably did you more harm than good. Try it with denoise 3D (particularly the preview one) and definetly get a SSE2 build from Andy's page.

I use it on VMR7 out btw (no tearing which is a problem that plagues me on VMR9 regardless of CPU use).

Download newer ffdshow here:
http://www.codecsdownload.com/download/FFDShow.htm

The SSE2 July 9 (09-07-2004) version is what I use on my P4.

I run levels to fix dark/light output (16/235), slight denoise 3D and/or unsharpmask at 3, resize to 1920x1080 on Lanczos 4 (around .4 Luma), and output in YV12. I use the WinDVD 6 video and nVidia audio codec. One thing I think was crucial was also adding the DMO_V Intervideo Abstract filter, changing registry setting for value to 0, in order to get the InterVideo codec to work properly (I had problems with freezing screen). I have a P4 2.8GHz, 128MB nVIdia 5200 Ultra, outputting VGA to my TV.

Note that I had been running at 2x DVD res resize with no problems. The other night I tried changing it to 1920x1080 resize, which I couldn't even run with WinDVD 4 codecs. I haven't tried watching a movie all the way through, but it seemed okay for about 5-10 minute spurts of different movies.

I use the ffdshow-20040709_SSE2.exe. Is there a better version using less resources?

changing registry setting for value to 0
Which registry is it? I had trouble saving the abstract filter in Windvd. When I set it to "On" with the lowest value and then close Windvd, the option doesn't seem to be stored.

Originally posted by Bluematches
I use the ffdshow-20040709_SSE2.exe. Is there a better version using less resources?

http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/

Try out the preview one but make sure to uninstall your current one first. It's a little limiting about what you can do but Denoise3D and Lanzcos resize are optimized even further (and are the only things I use).

What about Dscaler sharpen?

Not sure if it works in this version (I would assume yes since it's not an area he's working in), I don't use it and he hasn't been optimizing it.

Originally posted by Bluematches
Which registry is it? I had trouble saving the abstract filter in Windvd. When I set it to "On" with the lowest value and then close Windvd, the option doesn't seem to be stored.

Here's the thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=426984

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\InterVideo\DVD5\Pasteurizati
on\
Change value of Intensity to 0.

do all version of FFDSHOW require Avisynth to correct green underpush when using ATI graphic card? Which version does not require? thanks.

I have the same question. It would seem as though this is an ATI driver bug and I'm wondering if the latest catalyst drivers fix this problem. Anyone know for sure?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=428782
If anyone can't get there Zoomplayer going with Sonic codecs , check out this thread> It got mine up and running!

Regards

Sup everyone...

Right now I have my FFDShow setup with the following:
Denoise3D: .5, .5, 5
Unsharp: 15
Resize: 1440x960 with Lanczos at default parameter and .5/.5 for chroma/luma

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to utilize the DScaler sharpen since I've heard it yields better results, yea I have no idea how to plug it into FFDShow. Similarly, throughout this post I've seen people using Lanczos 4, does the 4 refer to the parameter setting or is this a resizing option I don't seem to have in my FFDShow? For DVD playback I've been using Sonic Cinemaster Video/Audio decoders, but have lately read that the new WinDVD6 codecs yield a better picture. Has anyone been able to side-by-side compare the Sonic and WinDVD6 codecs to determine which yields greatest PQ? Lastly, does YV12 output really improve picture quality?

Thanks in advance...

Kind of responding to my own post...but thought the information might be somewhat useful to the rest.

I've been doing side-by-side comparisons of the Sonic CineMaster and WinDVD6 codecs and I must say that each have their goods and bads (like everything else). Watching satellite television (640x480 input) and resizing to 1280x960 with the same settings I believe that the WinDVD6 codecs look sharper and produce more accurate skin tones. However, with this increased picture quality comes a significantly higher CPU load (can someone else confirm this) as compared to the Sonic CineMaster codecs as well as some minor trailing/ghosting effects (Display is a LC-30HV6U). Admittedly the ghosting/trailing really isn't a problem when viewed from a proper distance, I'm just up close and personal with the display at the moment. Meanwhile, I can actually run the Sonic codecs resized at 1920x1440 without a dropped frame whereas the WinDVD6 codecs can't. Therefore I think that while the WinDVD6 codecs are a better filter for quality, etc, they aren't worth the added CPU utilization simply because such picture inprovements can be had with the Sonic codecs by resizing to a higher resolution.

If anyone else has any info let me know...thanks...

can't get 801a_preview SSe2 to work. Resize only has 5 options, Lancos to up to 4, Biculic,simple resize,warped resize and non. Picture all green out when resize is checked.

Originally posted by AndyIEG
L=0.0-0.5 == 0
C=0.0-0.5 == 0

means the precalced coefs for those input values are all zero, for the chroma/luma coef array. The array starts to be filled with values at 0.8+

So what u see with "Denoise3d L=0.0-0.5, C=0.5-1.0 T=5.0" is the 0.8-1.0 Chroma effect.




That’s a good point Andy.
I forgot that you had mentioned the transition point was 0.8. As I have always adjusted in 0.5 steps I never noticed.
Where is the next valid step in adjustment 1.6?
I think it’s about time the controls where altered to only show valid adjustment steps like 0,1,2,3 to avoid confusion.
Maybe extra steps in coefs could be implemented to allow finer control.

Buy the way; your latest “Fast” denoise3d is in deed VERY fast. Great work.
I can now resize to 1920x1080 (my new display res) with Lanczos 4 and use denoise3d AFTER resize with YV12 output and VMR9 on my 3.5Gig P4 system.
That’s an amazing increase is performance.

Using denoise3d after resize does offer a subtle improvement.
I think the people who are not happy with denoise3d used before resize will be more impressed with it used after resize, as long as there systems can cope. :D

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Hey guys,

I finally got FFDShow working in ZP with WinDVD and AC3Filter.

I notice an anomaly, however. When I first fire up ZP and play the DVD, the video will freeze but the audio will continue as normal. If I search through to another chapter or use the ZP bar to reposition the frame location, the video/audio revert to normal. After 1 or 2 tries at this, the DVD continues to play normally with no stuttering or pausing. Any ideas?

I started by using Manchild's settings given above. Seems my CPU load as shown by the task manager hovers around 25-35% on a 3.0GHz P4 system.

Theoretically speaking, which should give better PQ results - resize then NR or vice versa?

That was happening to me also. What version of WinDVD codec are you using?

I was using WinDVD 4 codecs, and had terrible problems, same thing you are descrbing. Then I downloaded the WInDVD 6 software player (using the codecs), and problem solved!

See my post on this thread, #2327 -- the thread I linked to was one I started because I wanted help because I was so frustrated (with the screen freezes) I was going to give up on ffdshow/HTPC.

Hey cyberbri,

Thanks for replying, but unfortunately the WinDVD package from which I derived my WinDVD codecs is indeed version WinDVD6.

I also tried reversing the order of the NR/resize and could not get any output to the display from ZP (Samsung HL-P5063W).

*edit* I tried adding the abstract filter, but I cannot find the proper registry value to change. I'm getting a "no pin" error in ZP.

Nevermind, I saw your reference to the registry item to be modified and found it. Looks like I have everything working now.

denoise FAST still causes my ZP to crash out every time. Sometimes, explorer would crash too.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
I have a Sony GWIII for a display, is this a "good" display. My desktop rez with 1:1 pixel ratio is 1384x760 on it.

I find that Dscaler provides some added detail at low levels, but not sure if this is just edge enhancement or not.

Ok Joe, maybe that comment of mine was a little rash.

I definitely agree that Dscalers sharpen.dll can be very effective at bringing out fine detail.
I have seen it work wonders on some displays but it can look dreadful on others.

Dscaler sharpen emphasizes noise but Denoise3d can deal with that and the two work very well together.
It is generally best to use Dscaler sharpen before Denoise3d.

I would encourage people to give it a try. Like all filters, you will never know how it works for you unless you give it a go.

For those who have never used Dscaler filters, you need to install dscaler first, then go to FFDShow control panel and open the dscaler page. You can then use the navigate function on that page to go to where you installed dscaler and select the filter .dll file you want to use.

I have found that Dscaler sharpen does not convert to YV12 so you need to use another filter like “Picture properties”, a “Blur & Noise” filter or maybe “Levels” to convert to YV12 before the resize filter is used or a green screen will result.
Remember that you must make some small adjustment in picture properties or levels page. Or have one of the noise filters selected for the YV12 conversion to work. If you leave the filter settings at default the filters are disabled.
I use Picture properties with a small saturation adjustment to achieve this.
Being a VMR9 user, I don’t want or need the Levels filter. VMR9 maintains the full 0-255 Luma range without crushing white or black levels.
If your Mpeg decoder can output YV12, you don’t need to worry about the above coversion. My Elecard decoder does not.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by Manchild
Sup everyone...

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to utilize the DScaler sharpen since I've heard it yields better results, yea I have no idea how to plug it into FFDShow.

Thanks in advance...


I have included the needed dscaler.dll in my compiles. U dont need to install dscaler. Just open the dscaler ffdshow box and go to the ffdshow install dir and add the dscaler_sse2.dll, than setup your sharpen (80-130 are good values) and thats it.


For the crashes with the latest version, make sure u have deinstalled your latest version and maybe clean/delete the directory/reg settings manually. Im not at home and cant look at those problems for the next few day's.

@Owen there are no next "valid step", i just noticed that cause of the conversion from float to int the coefs are all zero for input values lower than 0.8. After this value the coefs get calced/rounded normal.

"Maybe extra steps in coefs could be implemented to allow finer control."
nope since we would need to use floats than, but the values wich get cast to 0 are very very next to zero like 1^-14-30. The other problem is i have no clue what those coefs represent :) I just know they get added later with the frame values.

Originally posted by AndyIEG


@Owen there are no next "valid step", i just noticed that cause of the conversion from float to int the coefs are all zero for input values lower than 0.8. After this value the coefs get calced/rounded normal.




Could we have that in English please? :D

So do values smaller than .8 have no effect ?

Regards
Nima

Nice work on the Preview rev! :)

Knocks the CPU load down from 65% to under 50%! Now I can use 2160x1440 resize as opposed to 1440x1440, which makes a noticeable improvement on edge-enhanced DVD's. CPU back up to 67%. Using a P4 3.15G, D3D: L=0.8, C=0.8, T=5, Fast. L4: L=0.8, YUY2 to YV12, using TheaterTek.

I'm curious why one would use the screen resolution or multiple thereof for resize, rather than multiples of DVD res. It gets scaled to the screen res by the graphics card anyway in the final step. Does this make any sense?

EDIT: Erased message - figured out own problem.

Originally posted by Carey P
I'm curious why one would use the screen resolution or multiple thereof for resize, rather than multiples of DVD res. It gets scaled to the screen res by the graphics card anyway in the final step. Does this make any sense?

If a person is using a digital display technology with a fixed resolution and 1:1 mapping with their HTPC, then scaling to the native resolution of the HTPC will result in only one scaling operation (vs scaling up to DVD x2 or x3 and then scaling to PC resolution). In my case, my resolution is 1400x1050 so I'm kind of SOL. Scaling to 1408x1050 seems sharper to me though than DVD x2 (DVD x3 is a wash).

Thanks Mark. I shouldn't have thought so hard about it. However, I tried to enter 1366 in the first box and it turned RED and wouldn't stick. I wanted to try 1366 x 768, which is my 1:1 mapping for my display and is what I have my ATI driver set to output. I was using the latest Preview SSE2 version. Can I not enter certain res values? I'll try playing with that again. Thanks.

Sounds like you have the same problem that I have (ffdshow resizes by factors of 16 and doesn't exactly fit the 1:1 timing we need). FWIW, I've tried the DVD x2 and x3 resizes and I personally like the one that is closest to my 1:1 resolution 1408x1050. This results in a vid card resize horizontally but not vertically which seems better than resizing in both directions. Some people have also been able to overscan (setup a virtual display slighter larger than the physical display and then toss out the difference w/o resizing). I know this can be done with zoom player but I'm not sure about Theatertek (which is what I use). GL.

No matter what you resize to, isn't your video output at the desktop resolution? I upscale to 1920x1080, but it goes to my TV over VGA at my desktop's 1280x720.

Did I miss something?
My DVDs play usually at ~18-20 FPS. WTF?
Resize to 1280x720, denoise3d(.5, .5, 5), lanczos

My machine specs are

2.4 ghz
512 meg PC2100
Geforce4 Ti4200 64 meg
WinXP Pro

Here is what is wierd. Media Player Classic reports 18-22 FPS. OSD on FFDShow reports 10 FPS then 12 FPS and it alternates 2-4 times a second. It also reports 0 frames dropped. How can it display less frames than its told, but drop 0? Did I miss something again?

And I can't use Zoom Player Pro for some reason. Once it starts playing, it plays, but I can't do ANYTHING else with my machine, even click the start menu. So, I use MPC like I started with, and it works fine.
Using Cyberlink DVD decoder, Reclock audio renderer, Cyberlink Audio Renderer.

I'm not decoding the DD/DTS, just passing through SPDIF. Setting to realtime adds a couple FPS. And, CPU usage through taskmanager shows ~90%!!!!!! WTF?!?!

I see jitters when watching a movie, so I assume its not me. What can I do to improve FPS? I've tried disabling A/V software, and thats helps.

Suggestions?

Mark,

Now I realize that after playing with the numbers some more. I can go 1376 x 768 I suppose, but I'll have to check it tomorrow using the projector. Using my local flat panel set to 1024 x 768 doesn't help much.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by cyberbri
No matter what you resize to, isn't your video output at the desktop resolution? I upscale to 1920x1080, but it goes to my TV over VGA at my desktop's 1280x720.

Yes you're correct, video output is at the desktop resolution which should be 1:1 with your panel size. From what I understand however, zoom player allows an additional overscan region from which the final image is cropped (to desktop resolution) and sent to the display device. I haven't actually done this (yet) but someone was telling me that they have a 1400 pixel wide display device (same as mine) and perform a DVD x2 rsize in ffdshow with it (to 1440) then they have zoom player configured to crop the left 20 and right 20 pixels and output only the middle 1400 pixels... I haven't tried this because I use Theatertek..

Originally posted by Owen
Ok Joe, maybe that comment of mine was a little rash.

I would encourage people to give it a try. Like all filters, you will never know how it works for you unless you give it a go.



Owen, I followed your directions and I'm attempting to perform resize (to DVD x2), Dscaler sharpen, Denoise3D with your recommended settings. The picture looks great. Only problem is that I'm not getting smooth playback even when I overlock my P4 to 3.51 Ghz. How are you able to perform the resize 1st followed by sharpen and denoise3d? I'm using reclock 1.4.

Are HTPC's meant to compete with regular, up converting DVD players? I have dialed in 1:1 with PowerStrip on my AE500 front projector, played with ZP, TT, ffdshow, windvd decoder, sonic decoder, resizing before and after, sharpening, de-X this and that. I have yet been able to get a picture as good as the older Samsung 931 DVD player outputs when I simply pop in a disk. The only thing I've been able to do with the HTPC that is better is blacks with the level filter. Is this a known? Granted, using ffdshow does produce a much better picture than using a computer without using ffdshow but neither are a good as the upconverting DVD player. The only thing I can think of is that the DVD player is hooked up via DVI and the computer via VGA (which does give me more tweaking options in the projector). I’m not bashing, but is this normal? The wonderful ffdshow guide, I don’t think, didn't really say what the before pictures were output by. Am I oddball here?

Normally a HTPC with a good video card and running FFDshow will outperform a standalone DVD player. But since your standalone DVD player is using DVI then your current HTPC setup has no chance IMO.

When you are using your DVD player you have digital transmission directly to the projector and then to the LCD panels. With the HTPC you are converting the DVD signal down to Analog RGBHV and then in the projector it is converting this analog signal back to digital again.

What you need to try is to run DVI from your HTPC to the projector with 1:1 pixel mapping. The clean scaling of the HTPC will outperform your DVD player then and there will be no lossy conversions.

Aaron

ppctx your dvd player is only 480p sending a dvi to a digital projector. Sounds to me like a limitation on your equipment.

For crt projector owners we don't use dvi because the projector only has 5 bnc inputs. Also we run dvd movies at 1440x960 res. 960p.

Also, if you have a powerfull pc you can do Lancoz4 Resize at 1440x960 with a bunch of cool filters. A set top dvd player cant compete against that.

Just to comment on what everyone else has said...

I agree, using DVI over RGB can yield a huge improvement in PQ. By comparing a DVD player over DVI to HTPC over RGB, you're comparing apples to oranges. My guess is that a properly setup PC, properly tweaked, will yield better PQ than any DVD player.

If someone finds a DVD player that outperforms an optimized HTPC, please let me know. It would save me a lot of hassles ;)

Why in the world would you run your AE500 from an HTPC without DVI? It really is a wonderful picture.

-MP

Is the DVI that much better than VGA?
I currently have my cable STB over DVI, but if I can get the computer working correctly over DVI, may switch to that and use component to connect the STB. (will have to do the regular DVD player over another connection for the wife, though...)

Anyone able to figure out why some of us with the preview version of ffdshow put out by AndyIEG, that you get a green screen in Zoomplayer?

I've isolated it only happening on my display when Denoise3d is set AFTER resize. When I move Denoise3d to before resize I don't get the green screen anymore.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
Anyone able to figure out why some of us with the preview version of ffdshow put out by AndyIEG, that you get a green screen in Zoomplayer?

I've isolated it only happening on my display when Denoise3d is set AFTER resize. When I move Denoise3d to before resize I don't get the green screen anymore.

You need a filter in front oof resize to convert to YV12 first, the other code paths are not optimized (and hence removed in the preview version). I just left denoise in front of resize because I couldn't find a filter that would just trigger the YV12 conversion without changing the picture (granted, I didn't look too hard but levels wouldn't do it).

-Pat

I'm using Owen's tip of changing the picture saturation by one notch and making sure that the picture adjustment happens first. It works for me although I am getting choppy playback by putting resize before denoise3d and dscaler sharpen...

Originally posted by ppctx
Are HTPC's meant to compete with regular, up converting DVD players? I have dialed in 1:1 with PowerStrip on my AE500 front projector, played with ZP, TT, ffdshow, windvd decoder, sonic decoder, resizing before and after, sharpening, de-X this and that. I have yet been able to get a picture as good as the older Samsung 931 DVD player outputs when I simply pop in a disk. The only thing I've been able to do with the HTPC that is better is blacks with the level filter. Is this a known? Granted, using ffdshow does produce a much better picture than using a computer without using ffdshow but neither are a good as the upconverting DVD player. The only thing I can think of is that the DVD player is hooked up via DVI and the computer via VGA (which does give me more tweaking options in the projector). I’m not bashing, but is this normal? The wonderful ffdshow guide, I don’t think, didn't really say what the before pictures were output by. Am I oddball here?

Since your have the setup (ie, htpc as well as an upconverted dvd player), would you be kind enough to connect your htpc via DVI and compare with your upconverted DVD player? The Zenith 318 is certainly very attractive at $200 and will certainly scores high on the WAF.

Just changing the Levels to 16/235 worked for me to get it to change to YV12 before Resize.

You could also use something like unsharp mask or xsharpen at a very, very low setting to get the conversion to YV12.


My current settings:
Levels -> Output 16/235
Resize -> 1920x1080, Lanscoz 4 Luma Sh @ .40 - .60
(debating) denoise 3D fast @ time 6.00

Originally posted by cyberbri
Is the DVI that much better than VGA?
I currently have my cable STB over DVI, but if I can get the computer working correctly over DVI, may switch to that and use component to connect the STB. (will have to do the regular DVD player over another connection for the wife, though...)

I think it varies on the equipment. But on my system (SX-21 FPTV) DVI is a huge improvement over RGBHV and I'm using expensive silver serpent RGB cables. To put it another way, the difference is much bigger than any improvements I've seen with ffdshow ;) (not to knock ffdshow it's just that DVI is *really* a big improvement).

I spent some time experimenting to find the best resize and found that 3xDVD resolution works best for me. I tried something close to my 1:1 mapping of 1366x768. This was 1376x768 and this looked the worse. I tried 1.5x this, which was 2064x1152 and this looked better. But 2160x1440 (3xDVD) is the winner. It brings out the finer detail without adding to the artifacts.

I also tried for the fun of it, Denoise after Resize with a low setting of Unsharp mask before Denoise. This didn't look any better to me than the other way around, plus my CPU went up to 79%.

Andy,

I ran into a problem with the new fast Dnoise3d. When enabling split screen it causes reclock to crash. I don't know if this is a new or old problem but having a workable split screen (only apply denoise3d to the right hand side of the screen) is really helpful. I'm experimenting with denoise3d in conjunction with Dscaler sharpen (low settings of around 20) since dscaler sharpen supports the split screen it could be useful for testing to have both denoise3d and dscaler sharpen applied only to the right side of the screen. Also fwiw, I'm liking the combo of sharpen+denoise3d on DVD's with bad transfers.

Carey,

3xdvd and close to 1:1 seem like a wash to me. I like the close to 1:1 a little better. Not sure why we're getting different results...

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
Owen, I followed your directions and I'm attempting to perform resize (to DVD x2), Dscaler sharpen, Denoise3D with your recommended settings. The picture looks great. Only problem is that I'm not getting smooth playback even when I overlock my P4 to 3.51 Ghz. How are you able to perform the resize 1st followed by sharpen and denoise3d? I'm using reclock 1.4.

The only way I can get smooth playback on my system with denoise3d, Lanczos resize to 1920x1080, Dscaler sharpen and VMR9 is to use Dscaler sharpen before resize.

So the order of filters is:

Dscaler sharpen
Picture Properties (Saturation 65 to enable YV12 conversion)
Resize Lanzos4 (1920x1080, my desktop res.)
Denoise3d (L1.0, C2.0, T5.0)

If you are using VMR7 or overlay which if less demanding then VMR9, you should have no problems with double DVD res on a fast system.

NOTE:
If you use Denoise3d AFTER a resize to double DVD or greater, you need to increase the Luma and Chroma setting get maximum benefit.
L0.5, C1.0, T5.0 is a good setting if used BEFORE resize, but it is not adequate after resize.
Also note that it is recommended to use a Chroma setting higher then Luma as Chroma on DVD’s is of lower resolution then Luma and a high setting of Chroma can give a noticeable decrease in noise without detrimental affects.

As for Dscaler sharpen, I find I can only use a small amount on good quality DVD’s but none at all on poor ones, as it exaggerates any defects.
On a really clean DVD it can be very impressive.

Regards,

Owen
____________________________
The FFDShow resize sharpen dude.

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
I ran into a problem with the new fast Dnoise3d. When enabling split screen it causes reclock to crash. I don't know if this is a new or old problem but having a workable split screen (only apply denoise3d to the right hand side of the screen) is really helpful. I'm experimenting with denoise3d in conjunction with Dscaler sharpen (low settings of around 20) since dscaler sharpen supports the split screen it could be useful for testing to have both denoise3d and dscaler sharpen applied only to the right side of the screen. Also fwiw, I'm liking the combo of sharpen+denoise3d on DVD's with bad transfers.


It occurs to me that doing a split screen with vector optimized code might imply that the horizontal resolution would have to be a multiple of 32 since each half would have to be a multiple of 16. The input checker that reddens the field only seems to check for a factor of 16, so later code might not check the value when the filter is applied to only half that image. Unchecked errors may result.

This might occur if either the input resolution (if the filter is before the rescaling) or the output resolution (if it is after) is not a multiple of 32. (Of course, DVD resolution at 720 is not a multiple of 32.)

Vector programming seems to revolve around these issues. The sexy part is the inner loop which can be very fast. The nasty, ugly part is all the manipulation and shifting that goes on outside the loop in order to get everything aligned on vector boundaries so you can execute the inner loop quickly.

Then again, handling the split case might have just been overlooked, particularly in a preview version.

Hi.

I have tried to use ffdshow with NVidia ForceWare Multimedia (NVDVD 3.0), and I ran into some strange things.

I have a Hitachi PJ-TX100, I first run a Blur and Noice reduction - pretty much the same settings as the ones found in this thread, http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1, (although I cannot run the denoice 3d in HQ because of my 2.6 Ghz HT CPU is not fast enough, after that I resize to 1280x720 (lanczos).

Then I was playing with it on the danish release of Finding Nemo, and in the start is a sequence where Nemo's mother and farther are looking at a lot of red eggs - this gives a lot of terrible curved linces all over the eggs. If I then run deinterlacing in ffdshow, these are gone - how come - would the DVD not be in progressive, which should not need deinterlacing, or am I wrong here?

Also when panorating vertically, I get a horisontal line every once in a while, which isen't there without ffdshow - it is there when I rescale the image in ffdshow, also without everything else clicked off - how come? I cannot seem to remove them, no matter if I rescale to double dvd res, 1280x720 or anything else.

I should say I am running the PAL dvd which is 720x576 pixels.

Thanks,

Brian

Sorry for not replying yesterday, this was the weekend finally got around to working on the boat. I would have tried DVI to the HTPC ages ago if it were possible. It would require a LOT of attic time to take the DVI to the computer and it would be quite difficult to bring the computer to the DVI because the computer is water cooled with an external system which can turn moving it "safely" into a three people task. There are other options to do it, but I don’t have the necessary money right now to sink into it. stylinlp, I really believe that the DVD player takes the 480 signal and up converts it to 720P (choosing between 480P, 720P, and 1080i when hooked up via DVI) Thanks for the responses, that was the general thought I had about the situation. For now, I will just have to stifle this little PQ bug that plagues.
e268, I have read a good deal on the 318 and have read that it may not be the best option for DVI output due to white crush vs no white crush using component. However, the typical clearer picture with DVI is still the case. It also said that large screens ie front projectors are "very unforgiving with this player" Take everything I say with a grain of salt because it is a regurgitation of what I've read via my memory of it.
madpoet, why would you say that? It's like telling someone in AA on step 10... uhmmmm, beer sure taste good. :)

Ok, I'm going to do the attic work and get the DVI to the computer. The attic is such a hot and nasty place to be plus, no one argures saying that a HTPC is more convienent than a regular player, so I hope its for a noticable improvement. I am using an Nvidia geforce4 card with the DVI out. Is this going to cause any devistating PQ issues (and no, upgrading video cards is not an option, the whole money thing again)? Madpoet, I dont remember, did you have this setup?

Originally posted by cyberbri
Just changing the Levels to 16/235 worked for me to get it to change to YV12 before Resize.

You could also use something like unsharp mask or xsharpen at a very, very low setting to get the conversion to YV12.


My current settings:
Levels -> Output 16/235
Resize -> 1920x1080, Lanscoz 4 Luma Sh @ .40 - .60
(debating) denoise 3D fast @ time 6.00

Shouldn't input be 16/235 and output be 0/255?

Also, PLEASE help me understand how to adjust color when using VMR9. I cannot figure where or how to adjust color.

Thank you very much for any help!!

P.S. I added the DMO abstract filter per others posting about it for WINDVD and now instead of the pic freezing when it hiccupped, it now only stutters and continues!! That was a BIG FIX for me. :D

Originally posted by bedo
Shouldn't input be 16/235 and output be 0/255?

Also, PLEASE help me understand how to adjust color when using VMR9. I cannot figure where or how to adjust color.

Thank you very much for any help!!

P.S. I added the DMO abstract filter per others posting about it for WINDVD and now instead of the pic freezing when it hiccupped, it now only stutters and continues!! That was a BIG FIX for me. :D

When I change it to output of 16/235 on my system, I finally start seeing dark shadow detail. Must be something with my system / setup / video card. I use the THX logo shadow screen, Chapter 3 (Upgrades) of Matrix 2, and the cave/spider scene in HP-Chamber of Secrets, as references. At levels all 0/255, the picture is very, very dark, with barely even the THX logo visible, and no dark details in the other two movies. Boosting it to output 16 finally gives me dark/shadow details.

I think it would be better to just go with what looks best on your system. If changing input one way, i.e. boosting input 0->16 makes the picture much darker, or rather darkens the black range, makes it look "right," then you should go with that.


I am not sure how to adjust color with VMR9.


And yes, using the DMO abstract filter and upgrading to WinDVD 6 codecs saved me. I was about to give up on using my HTPC, literally, getting sick and tired of having the screen freeze. A few dropped frames here and there is much more acceptable.

Up until now I've simply been using the Overlay Mixer in ZoomPlayer for all the FFDShow happiness. I was wondering what VMR9 really is and if it does in fact boost picture quality. Also, for the resizing issue I've heard so much about lately, I was told to resize to either 2x DVD (1440x960 for NTSC) or the native resolution of your display, whichever is higher. When I resize straight to my native resolution of 1280x768 the DVD picture just looks strange, not filled, etc...

Thanks for any help on these issues...

Try making your adjustments (resize) with ZP closed first. Then open ZP again and check.

I know for things like resize, if you change it while the DVD is playing, it will change the resolution so it's too big or small for the screen. You have to stop playback and start again to see how it looks.

I'm just trying to guess what you mean. Could you explain what you mean by " just looks strange, not filled, etc"??

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
Yes you're correct, video output is at the desktop resolution which should be 1:1 with your panel size. From what I understand however, zoom player allows an additional overscan region from which the final image is cropped (to desktop resolution) and sent to the display device. I haven't actually done this (yet) but someone was telling me that they have a 1400 pixel wide display device (same as mine) and perform a DVD x2 rsize in ffdshow with it (to 1440) then they have zoom player configured to crop the left 20 and right 20 pixels and output only the middle 1400 pixels... I haven't tried this because I use Theatertek..


Anybody know the process for cropping using Zoom? I've dug around and can't find out what the best way of doing this is. I am trying to resize using a miltiple of 16, then crop slightly what doesn't fit, as my native isn't an even multiple of 16. I currently just resize to something close, but haven't touched anything in Zoom.

Flyt100

For me, I just have my desktop resolution at 1280x720, using PowerStrip for a custom resolution. No matter how high I resize, it is still output at 1280x720 to my TV, which has a native resolution of 1280x720.

How do you have your desktop resolution, etc. set up?
I imagine as long as you have your desktop resolution set properly for your display device, your resize figures won't matter.

>>Anybody know the process for cropping using Zoom?<<

The Blanking navigator or Settings > Presets > Blanking

I've a couple of questions.
I like to leave my desktop levels very low in cont and brite (using ATI 9600 color controls) in order to preserve my CRTs. This was never an issue when using overlay but now that I'm experimenting with VMR9 the image at defaults is way too dim. Of course I know this is due to my desktop settings and I'd rather not boost those.
I have found 2 seperate ways or combo of both to overcome the dim image. The image can be brightened using FFDshow luminance and gamma adj in the picture propertiies or the level can be boosted using level filter.
So my question is this.
Can someone tell me what the preferred method (in my case) should be?

Originally posted by cyberbri
For me, I just have my desktop resolution at 1280x720, using PowerStrip for a custom resolution. No matter how high I resize, it is still output at 1280x720 to my TV, which has a native resolution of 1280x720.

How do you have your desktop resolution, etc. set up?
I imagine as long as you have your desktop resolution set properly for your display device, your resize figures won't matter.


I've got an HS10, so my desktop size is set to 1368 x 768 which is as close to native as we can. I have the video position preset in Zoom set to the same with 0 offset. Maybe that's all I have to do to make sure I am 1:1 without causing a second resize (after FFDSHOW to 1360 x 768).

Flyt100

flyt100,

Have you tried 2x resize before? With your desktop resolution set to your display's resolution, you should be able to resize to anything, as no matter what resolution the DVD is resized to, it will be output at your desktop's 1368x768 resolution anyway. Try 2x or 1280x720, or if you can go higher, say 2.5x resolution or something.

I resize to 1920x1080, and it's output to my TV at 1280x720. Turn on your OSD to see what you're getting.

Originally posted by Energeezer
I've a couple of questions.
I like to leave my desktop levels very low in cont and brite (using ATI 9600 color controls) in order to preserve my CRTs. This was never an issue when using overlay but now that I'm experimenting with VMR9 the image at defaults is way too dim. Of course I know this is due to my desktop settings and I'd rather not boost those.
I have found 2 seperate ways or combo of both to overcome the dim image. The image can be brightened using FFDshow luminance and gamma adj in the picture propertiies or the level can be boosted using level filter.
So my question is this.
Can someone tell me what the preferred method (in my case) should be?

If your picture is really dim, try boosting your Levels output only to 16/235 (from 0/255). If you don't have a calibration DVD, try one like Monsters Inc or something with the THX calibration tests, and look at the THX shadow screen.

I don't think your gamma/luminance will give you accurate levels, or at least not as accurate as just changing the output levels.

I have been using 2X resize for about a year, then I've been trying resizing to my native (which helps with CPU %). I was just trying to guarantee I'm 1:1 after that. Not sure if it really makes that much of a difference, just trying it out.

Man you guys are quick to respond...anyhow...what I meant by the picture looks strange when I resize to my native 1280x768 is that the picture is enclosed in a small window. For a true 16:9 set or 1280x720 set, a film (at the proper aspect ratio) should fill the screen. When I use a multiple of the DVD resolution I achieve this filled screen look (small letterboxing on the top and bottom due to the fact my set is 1280x768), however when resizing to this native resolution I not only receive large black bars on the top and bottom, but on the sides as well. I've simply found it to be easiest to resize to a multiple of the input signal whether it be DVD or broadcast TV...again, what are the advantages/disadvantages of VMR9?

If your picture is really dim, try boosting your Levels output only to 16/235 (from 0/255). If you don't have a calibration DVD, try one like Monsters Inc or something with the THX calibration tests, and look at the THX shadow screen.

Thanks
I'll give that a try

Manchild,

Have you tried checking the box in the resize window that says "no aspect ratio correction?" Otherwise, do you have a "full" setting to try on your display? Sorry, that's all I can think of.

Thanks for the help...the ticking of "no aspect ratio" fixed the picture problem although resizing to 1440x960 definately still yields a better picture, any help on what VMR9 is and its affect on picture quality? Also...are people finding that the DScaler sharpen or unsharp is yielding better picture?

Owen,

Thanks for the fine summary below. This provides a great starting point for a newbie like myself.

Originally posted by Owen
The only way I can get smooth playback on my system with denoise3d, Lanczos resize to 1920x1080, Dscaler sharpen and VMR9 is to use Dscaler sharpen before resize.

So the order of filters is:

Dscaler sharpen
Picture Properties (Saturation 65 to enable YV12 conversion)
Resize Lanzos4 (1920x1080, my desktop res.)
Denoise3d (L1.0, C2.0, T5.0)

If you are using VMR7 or overlay which if less demanding then VMR9, you should have no problems with double DVD res on a fast system.

NOTE:
If you use Denoise3d AFTER a resize to double DVD or greater, you need to increase the Luma and Chroma setting get maximum benefit.
L0.5, C1.0, T5.0 is a good setting if used BEFORE resize, but it is not adequate after resize.
Also note that it is recommended to use a Chroma setting higher then Luma as Chroma on DVD’s is of lower resolution then Luma and a high setting of Chroma can give a noticeable decrease in noise without detrimental affects.

As for Dscaler sharpen, I find I can only use a small amount on good quality DVD’s but none at all on poor ones, as it exaggerates any defects.
On a really clean DVD it can be very impressive.

Regards,

Owen
____________________________
The FFDShow resize sharpen dude.

Johnbrisbin,

Excellent insight. Sounds like you've done some image processing in the past.

My idea filter would perform reverse edge enhancment (take EE out of DVD's). Any idea how difficult this would be?


Originally posted by johnbrisbin
It occurs to me that doing a split screen with vector optimized code might imply that the horizontal resolution would have to be a multiple of 32 since each half would have to be a multiple of 16. The input checker that reddens the field only seems to check for a factor of 16, so later code might not check the value when the filter is applied to only half that image. Unchecked errors may result.

This might occur if either the input resolution (if the filter is before the rescaling) or the output resolution (if it is after) is not a multiple of 32. (Of course, DVD resolution at 720 is not a multiple of 32.)

Vector programming seems to revolve around these issues. The sexy part is the inner loop which can be very fast. The nasty, ugly part is all the manipulation and shifting that goes on outside the loop in order to get everything aligned on vector boundaries so you can execute the inner loop quickly.

Then again, handling the split case might have just been overlooked, particularly in a preview version.

Originally posted by flyt100
Anybody know the process for cropping using Zoom? I've dug around and can't find out what the best way of doing this is. I am trying to resize using a miltiple of 16, then crop slightly what doesn't fit, as my native isn't an even multiple of 16. I currently just resize to something close, but haven't touched anything in Zoom.

Flyt100

I received this from "arca" who has a native 1400 width display like mine and who uses a desktop resolution of 1400 but with ZP setup to 1440 which is dvdx2 in ffdshow:

"In ffdshow I resize the output to 1440x800 (hmm, should be 810 now that I calculate it again?), which is a 16:9 ratio to correct for anamorphic compression.

In Zoomplayer I have a preset with these settings:
X-offset = -20
Y-offset = -6
Width = 1440
Height = 800

This means the video coming from ffdshow is not scaled (same size), but is shifted 20 pixels left and 6 pixels up. Since my display is 1400x788 (JVC HX1), 40 pixels are cropped horizontally and 12 cropped vertically.

I have to select the stored preset from the menu for it to take effect, but this could maybe be scripted in Zoomplayer. It would also be useful to have different settings for non-anamorphic video, but for now I'm satisfied."

Mark,

After further didling using a well-mastered DVD (SW:AOTC), I found that 1360x768 does look indeed sharper than 2160x1440 and I save all that CPU overhead too. What I was seeing before is that the higher resize "blurs out" the EE and noise of badly transfered DVD's so they actually look better and smoother. But with a good DVD, it just makes it fuzzier. So what we need is an FFDShow config on a per-DVD basis.

I also witnessed a decrease in noise by turning off FAST and setting Chroma to twice the Luma in Denoise3D as Owen suggested. [C=0.5, L=1.0, T=5). This was only a 5% increase on CPU load.

I am about ready to ditch this ZoomPlayer and FFDShow.

I am pretty frustrated right now.

So, I get ZP/FFD working well in conjunction. My test DVD was Pearl Harbour DVD1. Everything great... working fine. I return to ZP today armed with my new DVE DVD to further calibrate the picture... take the Pearl Harbour DVD out, insert the DVE DVD... no picture. ZP locks up with a black screen. So, I re-insert Pearl Harbour to see if there is something with the DVE DVD, same thing... no picture.

This is so friggin buggy.

Any suggestions? I'm honestly wondering if the "improved" picture quality I shoul dbe seeing from FFDShow is worth all this time investment and frustration over just putting in the DVD to a STB and calling it quits.

What codecs are you using? What is your system/setup?

Did you try closing Zoom Player? Restarting your computer? Maybe it's something with DVE.

I was frustrated with the screen freezing during playback every 5-10 minutes, but asked around, got some help, and upgraded my WinDVD to the new version 6, and now it works great. There's no way I could get PQ this good from my normal DVD player.

Originally posted by Carey P
Mark,

After further didling using a well-mastered DVD (SW:AOTC), I found that 1360x768 does look indeed sharper than 2160x1440 and I save all that CPU overhead too. What I was seeing before is that the higher resize "blurs out" the EE and noise of badly transfered DVD's so they actually look better and smoother. But with a good DVD, it just makes it fuzzier. So what we need is an FFDShow config on a per-DVD basis.

I also witnessed a decrease in noise by turning off FAST and setting Chroma to twice the Luma in Denoise3D as Owen suggested. [C=0.5, L=1.0, T=5). This was only a 5% increase on CPU load.

Yeah, resizing to dvdx3 seemed softer to me too. I didn't look for what it does to EE though. I'll go back and take a look again.

Btw, your comment about using an FFDShow config on a per-DVD basis is something that I'm beginning to do now (I have three). Check out this thread on how to do it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=431818

It seems everyone here loves using denoise, either gradual or 3D. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like the effect it has.

But tonight for kicks I played around with the noise filter. Although it seems like most of you are getting rid of noise (I didn't really notice any missing noise, just smoothed picture, sometimes making skin tones look weird, like they're "floating" or "crawling," especially in dark scenes), I like my picture with a little extra noise - like on the HD dramas on network HD, and the movies shown on INHD/2. We just finished watching Edward Scissorhands, and I think the PQ was a lot better with the noise. It feels more film-like this way to me.

I have:

Levels - output 16/255 EDIT - need to calibrate better to see if it should be 16/255 or 16/235
Resize - 1920x1080, Lanscoz 4, Luma sharpen .40
Noise - new algorithm - Uniform noise(not just in bright areas), EDIT -> testing with LOTR-FOTR-EE, like luminance noise 13 the best
Output YV12

I just tried testing it a bit with LOTR-FOTR-EE after watching Edward Scissorhands, and I like the way skin/faces look better this way too. It's not too noticable, but there's just enough there to make the skin look more real, like there is more texture, and a bit sharper I think too (especially on Gandalf, Sauron in and before the fight/capture scene at Isengard). More film-like, IMO. At least on my Samsung DLP set.


Anyway, if you want to see what it looks like as a slightly grainier picture, which looks better and more film-like, rather than a smoothed-out one, give it a try.

FFS.

Apparently I need to start up ZP on my monitor, then drag the windowed player to the HDTV to get the thing to play. What a mess.

Anyway... DVE menu system.. what a joke. Just navigating this DVD has a learning curve. Why must everything be so frustrating? Navigating the DVE DVD on an HTPC in ZP is like pushing a friggin rope.

Mark,

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

Flyt100

Tried the 20040801 preview build of FFDShow with Owen's settings as per the following:

VMR9 in ZP
DScaler @ 32
Picture Prop. - Saturation @ 65
Lanzcos4 @ 0.8 0.0
Denoise3d @ 1.0 2.0 5 FAST

No problems and very smooth picture on my P4 2.8C with 512DDR & 5900xt video card.

Originally posted by Carey P
Mark,

After further didling using a well-mastered DVD (SW:AOTC), I found that 1360x768 does look indeed sharper than 2160x1440 and I save all that CPU overhead too. What I was seeing before is that the higher resize "blurs out" the EE and noise of badly transfered DVD's so they actually look better and smoother. But with a good DVD, it just makes it fuzzier. So what we need is an FFDShow config on a per-DVD basis.

I also witnessed a decrease in noise by turning off FAST and setting Chroma to twice the Luma in Denoise3D as Owen suggested. [C=0.5, L=1.0, T=5). This was only a 5% increase on CPU load.


Hi Mark,

I don’t recommend disabling “FAST”. It really does improve performance and allows Denoise3d to be used after resize where it does work just a little more subtly then when used before resize.

If you do want to try using it after resize, don’t forget that if you are resizing to say double DVD resolution, then you need to double your Denoise3d settings to maintain the same noise reduction effect.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

HeyJoe, what are you resizing to?

Owen,

I'm sure that answer was meant for me.

I disabled FAST only because I thought you or someone said that FAST (on the Preview edition) forced the parameters to L=0.5 C=0.5 and T=5 and changing these values, such as doubling C, did not do anything without turning FAST off. In fact, I didn't think I saw any change unless it was off. But I'll try your suggestion using it after resize and double the parameters with FAST checked again. Thanks.

So, why do people like denoise? How does it make the picture look better? The only noticable difference I see is a slight reduction of noise in certain areas, but every time I try to play around with it, it makes skin textures crawl/float and I just turn it off.

Why do people like denoise so much?

You want just a little bit of it, because when you resize without it noise can be a serious problem.

Hmm. I've never seen/noticed a problem, at least on my VGA-out at 1280x720 to Samsung DLP, with WinDVD 6 codecs... Like I said on the last page of the thread, I'm actually adding a slight amount of noise and like that effect better.

I just wondered, because it seems everyone here talks about denoise more than anything else...

In the end, everything we do is a matter of taste. Show it how you want to see it ;)

Well I haven't visited this thread in awhile but I downloaded the latest version to try out...My question to the experts (Owen) I had been using denoise3d before a resize of 1440x960 with Lanczos. I have always been curious about resizing to 1904x1040 which is what I have powerstrip configured to output but have never had enough CPU to handle it. But today I figured out that if I used gradual denoise I could resize to that without any stutter. So, what do the experts say about that? Should I stay with those settings or am I losing quality by choosing gradual over 3d that I can't make up with additional resizing....ahhhhh....computers

Are you using the newest SSE2 preview version (08/01?) with "Fast" denoise 3D? You may be able to do 3D even after resize, having it set to Fast.

Actually, if you have something that can handle the SSE2 instructions and have that version, you may be better off with denoise3D than gradual. If you're feeling brave, even go for the preview which is just blazing fast and you should have no problem resizing to that or higher (depending on processor but I'm assuming a P4 something if you could handle 1440x960 before).

Originally posted by madpoet
HeyJoe, what are you resizing to?

1440x960

No, I am using 'ffdshow-20040808'. I will try to find a link to that newer one ro if you could be so kind to direct me...

Originally posted by Carey P
Owen,

I'm sure that answer was meant for me.

I disabled FAST only because I thought you or someone said that FAST (on the Preview edition) forced the parameters to L=0.5 C=0.5 and T=5 and changing these values, such as doubling C, did not do anything without turning FAST off. In fact, I didn't think I saw any change unless it was off. But I'll try your suggestion using it after resize and double the parameters with FAST checked again. Thanks.

That was my understanding as well (ie you need to turn off FAST to adjust the parameters to anything but L=0.5, C=0.5 and T=5. Perhaps Andy can change the menu so that when FAST is checked the other sliders are grayed out...

Originally posted by cyberbri
It seems everyone here loves using denoise, either gradual or 3D. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really like the effect it has....


Yeah, I read the long exchange awhile back about the pros and cons of denoise3d. I liked the screenshots with denoise3d better vs those without it. But when I played around with it I really disliked how it takes scenes with one hue (skin, sky) and makes things look "patchy". It seemed to improve upon the noise in most frames but when the "patchiness" showed up it just kills the realism of the movie for me and brings me out of the movie.

After experimenting, though I found that I still like Denoise3d but only at the lowest settings and when used in conjunction with just a little bit of Dscaler sharpen. In fact I would venture a guess that denoise3d should always be used when sharpen is also used.

I haven't played around with adding noise as you have suggested. I found that using Dscaler sharpen adds more than enough noise for me. Try it, you might find that it breaks up the dnoise3d patchiness while also sharpening the picture.

For reference I'm using dscaler sharpen at 20 and then Owen's recommended settings... I'm resizing to 1408x1050 (final desktop resolution is 1400x1050). I have "Fast" checked though so it's probably overriding Owen's settings and using .5.5,5 instead.

With this combo, I'm getting a sharp picture without the usual denoise3d patchiness. I'm finally getting to the point where ffdshow is starting to deliver a better picture for me...

Originally posted by scotty144
No, I am using 'ffdshow-20040808'. I will try to find a link to that newer one ro if you could be so kind to direct me...

Andy is currently posting his optimized versions here: http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/

If you downoad the preview version (recommended because it's blazing fast) make sure to uninstall any current version you have.

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
Yeah, I read the long exchange awhile back about the pros and cons of denoise3d. I liked the screenshots with denoise3d better vs those without it. But when I played around with it I really disliked how it takes scenes with one hue (skin, sky) and makes things look "patchy". It seemed to improve upon the noise in most frames but when the "patchiness" showed up it just kills the realism of the movie for me and brings me out of the movie.

After experimenting, though I found that I still like Denoise3d but only at the lowest settings and when used in conjunction with just a little bit of Dscaler sharpen. In fact I would venture a guess that denoise3d should always be used when sharpen is also used.



That's exactly why I didn't like it.

And I tried turning on the Dscaler last night, but it doesn't seem to be in the ffdshow folder (I remember seeing it there before). Maybe it's gone with the newest preview version?

Well I downloaded and got this version working except I must use denoise before resize otherwise I get a complete green screen....anyone???

You have to have some sort of filter before resize to force it into YV12.

Try sharpen at 1, levels/hue at a slight change, or something before resize if you want denoise after resize.

Originally posted by cyberbri
And I tried turning on the Dscaler last night, but it doesn't seem to be in the ffdshow folder (I remember seeing it there before). Maybe it's gone with the newest preview version?

It's there. Andy is including the dscaler sharpen .dll with the preview release. If I recall, just go into the dscaler menu and click add and then browse for it in the ffdshow program folder. It's called sharpen.dll or dscaler.dll or something like that. Let me know if you have problems and I can give you the exact instructions if you need it.

One cool thing about the dscaler sharpen is that you can apply it to half the image which is really useful for testing. Also use it sparingly... 80 is waay too much for me even on a good DVD. 20 seems to be reasonable on my system.

Thanks. Yeah, I looked for it there, having remembered just opening up the load window and seeing it right there - but didn't see it.

Is it possible to install a previous version of ffdshow, say in a different location, without messing up the current one? It would just be to get that dscaler dll. I guess I could install a previous one, copy the dll somewhere else, and re-install the newest preview...

How do you use the dscaler sharpen, anyway? Does it go after denoise, or before? I tried it once, but the only sharpening I have anyway is in resize, Lanscoz 4 at .40, not wanting to over-sharpen and create unwanted edge or anything like that.

Its there, look for FLT_Sharpness_sse2.dll

There weren't any dlls in the ffdshow folder last night when I looked. I remember, because I thought I was in the wrong folder, went up a level, and went back into the ffdshow folder.

I'll look again tonight. It's not a big deal anyway. After turning Noise on to try during Edward Scissorhands, I spent from 12-2 last night tweaking and testing for the best Noise settings, so I mine as well watch at least one movie with those settings. ;)

Anyone else using RGB32 as their output colorspace? I prefer the depth of color with RGB32. I was hoping those who are using it could post their other FFDshow settings. Particularily what they are doing for levels and other efforts to overcome the darkness casued. Thanks

I have levels output at 16/235, outputting YV12.

I onlydo that because everyone says output at YV12 (or YUY2), and with those colorspaces, my picture is way too dark.

I use RGB32. Set the output levels at 16,235. Leave input at 0,255.

Originally posted by Owen
[B]I don’t recommend disabling “FAST”. It really does improve performance and allows Denoise3d to be used after resize where it does work just a little more subtly then when used before resize.

If you do want to try using it after resize, don’t forget that if you are resizing to say double DVD resolution, then you need to double your Denoise3d settings to maintain the same noise reduction effect.

/B]

Owen,

There is no way to do this! In order to double the Denoise3d settings "Fast" must be disabled. When "Fast" is disabled and denoise3d is done after resize the picture is very jerky (at least on my system).

So bottom line Denoise3d can be used before resize with any settings but when used after resize, "Fast" must be used which forces .5,.5,5.

For what it's worth I'm getting good results using Denoise3d after resize with the FAST setting. I'm not seeing any of the patchiness that I usually see with denoise3d. In fact, for the first time I'm liking it ;)

After days of tweaking with ffdshow I have finally found a combination of settings that definitely yields a better picture for me. I did a lot of A/B testing with these parameters versus standard DVD (ie non-ffdshow scaled via vid card) and the difference is definitely there and noticeable. Kudos to Owen as this is only a slight variation from his recommended settings.

If anyone is interested, this is what my current settings are (in the order specified):

1) dscaler sharpen 30
2) picture saturation 65 (force yv12 for subsequent resize)
3) Lanczos 4 resize to 1408x1050 (my output resolution is 1400x1050). Luma sharpen 1.0.
4) denoise 3d with "Fast" setting (0.5,0.5,5)
5) output yv12 only.

This is using Andy's latest "fast" preview build. The DVD I used for testing was Superbit 5th Element. For poorer transfers I would recommend lower values of dscaler sharpen (or none).

Next up is to switch from theatertek to zoom player and try the overscan trick to eliminate the 2nd resize (ie crop out the 8 pixels to match the output resolution of 1400x1050).

You guys are correct about Denoise3d being fixed at L0.5, C0.5 with “FAST” enabled.
The strange thing is that L and C sliders are NOT grayed out on my system. They just have no effect when adjusted so I did not realize that higher settings where not functional. That explains why I was not getting the same noise reduction effect that I was accustomed to. :rolleyes:
This is after all, only a preview version so things like that are to be expected.
I do hope that the finished version is as fast as the preview one as using Denoise3d after resize does hold some promise. Especially for the people who dislike Denoise3d used before resize.
All filtering is fare more subtle after resize.

Anyway, even though the preview versions C & L values cannot be adjusted, does not remove the need to do so.
Using Denoise3d or the Gradual Denoise filter for that matter after resize still requires settings to be roughly doubled (depending on resize) to maintain the same noise reduction effect.
Noise reduction with Denoise3d used after resize is fare less effective then using it before at the same settings.

Back in the days when we only had Gradual Denoise to play with, it worked much better after resize, as Gradual Denoise has a nasty tendency to produce motion artifacts. These artifacts were much less noticeable with the filter used after resize, but much higher setting where required to get the same noise reduction effect.

All this makes perfect sense when you think about it.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

But with Fast enabled, the settings are at .5, and anything under .8 is at a coefficient for 0, IIRC. So with fast, all you are basically getting is the time slider for any effect.

Yep, 0.5 is the same as 0.0-0.7 and there in lies the problem.
If Denoise is used after resize, L0.0-0.7, C0.0-07 is not enough.
I would like to try something like L1.0, C2.0, T5.0, but I will have to wait until a functional version is released.
I have been trying out T=6.0 to boost noise reduction up closer to what it was with Denoise used before resize, but I have not yet done enough testing to decide weather I like that setup.

All this 0.0=0.7 stuff is terribly confusing to people and I would like to see the control sliders restricted to valid numbered options only, like 1,2,3,4.

At the moment we only have two useful settings for L and C, under 0.8 (= to 0.0) and over 0.8.
The next step up is too high to be useful if used before resize and is not even available if used after resize where FAST mode (restricted to 0.0) is required and where a higher setting would be useful.

Hopefully the next release will address this issue.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Fddshow 20040801a_preview does not work on my system. After install, I enable "raw" (in codecs) as always, but ZoomPlayer shuts down after an error even thoug I have not enable any

This does not happen with 20040725! What could be the problem? I certainly have no idea...

I am using ZP 4.01 rc2 pro.

I do not find the DScaler sharpen filter either. Shouldn't this be "bundled" with this fddshow?

Did you uninstall your previous version before installing the preview.

Also, I couldn't find the dscaler from inside ffdshow, but looking inside the actual ffdshow folder from Explorer, everything's there...

New FFDshow user here with a few questions..........wait a minute, gotta wait for my head to clear after reading the last 100+ pages.

Ok, here's my setup:

Samsung HLN467 DLP TV

HTPC
Abit KV8-Pro
AMD Athlon 64 2800+ OC'd to 3000
512 MB Corsair PC333 Ram
ATI Radeon 9600XT w/256MB

TheaterTek
FFDShow

I was very happy with the PQ using TT and after reading about FFDshow I figured it had to be even better. I installed the program and read the guide over at HTPCnews and followed it to the letter. My first problem was that the decoder icon the guide says should be in the control panel doesn't exist so I skipped that step and went onto the next. When I was done I thought the PQ was visibly worse and according to the OSD the CPU is pinging 100% almost constantly with non stop micro freezes. The image is like watching a very fast slide show. This hardly changes with resize on or off. I also noticed that the TT screensaver comes up after the preset 1 minute interval if FFDshow is enabled. The following list are the issues I've had, any and all comments are appreciated.

1.) No icon for the sonic decoder in Control Panel
2.) What resolution to resize to and why? I always thought that the less scaling the better so isn't it best to resize only once to my native 1280x720?
3.) Stuttering picture ...... from reading all of the previous posts my setup should run fine. It runs WMVD HD demo's with no problem.
4.) Colorspace......should I change this from 0-255 to 16-235?
5.) PQ appears zoomed on my display, I haven't verified this yet but it looks much softer and enlarged.

Any advice you guys can give to get me up to speed is appreciated.

I don't know TT or Sonic decoders - I use Zoom Player Pro 4 (free, or $15 shareware if you pay), and WinDVD 6 codecs. But I will answer what I can.



2.) What resolution to resize to and why? I always thought that the less scaling the better so isn't it best to resize only once to my native 1280x720?

This depends on your system and how it looks. If resizing higher makes it look worse, keep it at 1280x720. Technically you don't have to "resize" with ffdshow, as outputting to your TV at your desktop resolution should already display it at 1280x720. But resizing it scales it (Lanscoz, setting 4, is the most popular scaling method for resize) and can improve the picture a lot. I have a HLN4365W, and resize to 1920x1080, and that is output to the TV at 1280x720, desktop resolution.


3.) Stuttering picture ...... from reading all of the previous posts my setup should run fine. It runs WMVD HD demo's with no problem.

Sounds like a problem with your TT, ffdshow, Sonic codec setup. Can't help, sorry. You could always uninstall everything and try over with a clean slate, though. I had problems with WinDVD 4 codecs, the screen freezing every 5-10 minutes despite the fact that I only had 20-30% CPU usage according to Task Manager. I upgraded to WinDVD 6 and the problem was fixed. Make sure you have the most recent versions of your codecs and of ffdshow.


4.) Colorspace......should I change this from 0-255 to 16-235?

This depends on your system/setup. Some people have to change input to 16/235, while my picture is really dark and I have to set output to 16/235 to get shadow detail. Try a calibration disc, or even a THX-certified disc like Monsters Inc with the "THX dropshadow" test to see what your levels should be.


5.) PQ appears zoomed on my display, I haven't verified this yet but it looks much softer and enlarged.

Turn on FFDSHOW's OSD. This should display in the upper left hand corner input and output resolution. If you turn it on and can't see it, either ffdshow isn't working, or the picture is zoomed in so the OSD is off-screen. Scaling it with say Lanscoz setting 4 should make it look a lot better, more detailed. Other filters come into play as well, but I watched IJ-Temple of Doom last night, with just Levels output 16/235, Resize Lanscoz 4 to 1920x1080 (no sharpening), and output color set to YV12 - PQ was stunning.

This would be settings with Theater Tek, so I'm not sure. If you were using Zoom Player Pro, I could help you. Hopefully some of the TT users can be of more help.

Originally posted by Supertoyz
Any advice you guys can give to get me up to speed is appreciated. I am running TT 1.5.64 and FFDShow (Preview) and don't have any of the problems you described. See my previous posts, though. I have a P4 3.15 on a P4C800E-Deluxe, 512 MB Dual DDR, Radeon 9500Pro (4.6), M-Audio 24/96 (031), HS20 (1366x768@56Hz).

However, as far as the zoomed mode goes, this may also be why it looks out of focus. Have you tried checking the "No Aspect Ratio Correction" box in the Resize dialog? When you change Resize (size) parameters, you need to exit TT and restart, generally.

You should not have any skipping or jumping. Even when I use 3XDVD size (Denoise3D first), I only use 65% CPU. Otherwise, I'm generally under 50% now with the preview version. However, never try Denoise3D after resize unless you have FAST checked. But then, as you know, this defeats the purpose of it, so wait for the next version for that.

When I tried 16/235 output levels, it looked really washed out for me. This must be only for certain decoders or displays, but not for me. The only real advantage on the levels screen, was the Gamma correction. If I set a slight Gamma of 1.05 or so, it helped some black details, without brightening too much overall. But Gamma can be adjusted in many other places, of course.

I'm not sure what that guide says and never looked for any Sonic icon, or know why I should. But make sure you have only RAW video selected, with all else disabled in CODECS page (you can select YUY2 under RAW as well. In the Output dialog, select only YV12. I suggest making sure screensaver is turned off in TT. Mine has always been off. Select FFDShow for Postprocessor and turn off DXVA (just in case). I can't think of anything else at the moment. Good luck.

If you are getting stutters in panning, that can be microstutters. Look into Reclock.

Originally posted by Carey P
When I tried 16/235 output levels, it looked really washed out for me.

Are you trying it with input of 16/235 and output of 0/255? That is getting me good results, best I can tell. I also have modify only luminance and full range checked. For me with those settings, I have gamma between 1.03 and 1.07.

Originally posted by Carey P
II have a P4 3.15 on a P4C800E-Deluxe, 512 MB Dual DDR, Radeon 9500Pro (4.6), M-Audio 24/96 (031), HS20 (1366x768@56Hz).


Carey P., just curious about your use of M-audio 24/96 with a P4C800E-Deluxe. I also have both but I don't have the M-audio 24/96 installed. Instead I'm using the built-in SPDIF from the P4C800E-Deluxe mboard. Do you feel that the M-audio card offers better quality sound?

bedo,

I was using Output of 16/235, as others here insisted. I should have probably checked Input too, as that made more sense anyway. I guess I was in a hurry. I'll try your suggestions and see what happens. Thanks.

Mark,

BTW, thanks for the tip on saving FFDShow configs. Works great!
I have always used the M-Audio so I just turned off the Mobo audio as soon as I upgraded. Never even tried it bcasue I heard about issues using on-board audio for other things like asio and so forth. Anyway, I was always told the M-Audio produced a very clean spdif signal, if that means anything. I also use the mixer to get wave out through the card.

Originally posted by madpoet
If you are getting stutters in panning, that can be microstutters. Look into Reclock.

But it doesn't do this with FFDShow off, it plays fine.......so doesn't that rule out the need for Reclock? I would think the timing issue would present itself regardless of FFD being on or off.

Originally posted by Supertoyz
But it doesn't do this with FFDShow off, it plays fine.......so doesn't that rule out the need for Reclock? I would think the timing issue would present itself regardless of FFD being on or off.

Reclock is a great utility for smooth playing HTPC's. I would recomend to always use it for DVD playback. It fixes dropped frames that are timebase related (not related to CPU performance). If you are running low on CPU due to ffdshow and you are using reclock I've noticed that at times reclock will crash (in other words it makes it worse rather than better). Bottom line though is that you shouldn't, "rule out he need for Reclock".

My guess is that there is something wrong with your ffdshow settings and it's gobbling up too much CPU. Even a fast machine like yours can be brought to it's knees with ffdshow. Try a lower resize or perhaps put denoise3d before resize (shift-up or down arrow) in the ffdshow menu.

Also when you say the image looks zoomed. I often see this if I change resize settings and forget to exit the player and restart. You can't change the resize settings on the fly... Instead, try pausing the playback. change the resize values, exit and restart...

Originally posted by Supertoyz
But it doesn't do this with FFDShow off, it plays fine.......so doesn't that rule out the need for Reclock? I would think the timing issue would present itself regardless of FFD being on or off.

Reclock is a great utility for smooth playing HTPC's. I would recomend to always use it for DVD playback. It fixes dropped frames that are timebase related (not related to CPU performance). If you are running low on CPU due to ffdshow and you are using reclock I've noticed that at times reclock will crash (in other words it makes it worse rather than better). Bottom line though is that you shouldn't, "rule out he need for Reclock".

My guess is that there is something wrong with your ffdshow settings and it's gobbling up too much CPU. Even a fast machine like yours can be brought to it's knees with ffdshow. Try a lower resize or perhaps put denoise3d before resize (shift-up or down arrow) in the ffdshow menu.

Also when you say the image looks zoomed. I often see this if I change resize settings and forget to exit the player and restart. You can't change the resize settings on the fly... Instead, try pausing the playback. change the resize values, exit and restart...

Originally posted by Supertoyz
But it doesn't do this with FFDShow off, it plays fine.......so doesn't that rule out the need for Reclock? I would think the timing issue would present itself regardless of FFD being on or off.

Reclock is a great utility for smooth playing HTPC's. I would recomend to always use it for DVD playback. It fixes dropped frames that are timebase related (not related to CPU performance). If you are running low on CPU due to ffdshow and you are using reclock I've noticed that at times reclock will crash (in other words it makes it worse rather than better). Bottom line though is that you shouldn't, "rule out he need for Reclock".

My guess is that there is something wrong with your ffdshow settings and it's gobbling up too much CPU. Even a fast machine like yours can be brought to it's knees with ffdshow. Try a lower resize or perhaps put denoise3d before resize (shift-up or down arrow) in the ffdshow menu.

Also when you say the image looks zoomed. I often see this if I change resize settings and forget to exit the player and restart. You can't change the resize settings on the fly... Instead, try pausing the playback. change the resize values, exit and restart...

Does VMR9 color control only works with windowless setting?

with windowless i can't get mouse to work on DVD menu, i can select menu item only with windowed but it doesn't allow color control.

Originally posted by bedo
Are you trying it with input of 16/235 and output of 0/255? That is getting me good results, best I can tell. I also have modify only luminance and full range checked. For me with those settings, I have gamma between 1.03 and 1.07.

Just out of curiosity, why is everyone adjusting the colors in a ffdshow filter rather than later in the chain where it's not constrained to 8 bits per channel? It could just be completely theoretical but I have a problem making any color tweaks because you're going to lose a lot of information and smoothness.

VMR and Overlay should both have controls for the video card to change that cover brightness and gamma, or even better it can be done at the projector (unless you have multiple inputs).

Just curious,

-Pat

bedo,

I tried the 16/235 Input with the two checked boxes and this made my bright whites get crushed and I lost detail near the blacks (crushed blacks) I thought 7/255 might have been ok, but then realized I was still losing detal in the blacks. Increasing Gamma helped, but really the best picture overall was to just leave it at 0/255 or turn off Levels altogether. I think even the Gamma accentuates the post-processing noise at this point. I guess it's just not for me.

BTW, hasn't anyone (with a big enough screen) noticed the very subtle ghosting effects (sort of a trailing ghost or blotchiness) occasionally seen on moving parts of the image with a solid background? It's very hard to describe (but it's not there with FFDShow turned off using DXVA and TheaterTek). That's why I hadn't brought it up before. But this is exactly the thing I must fight with the controls to reduce. I found I can't use too high of a setting for luma sharpness or other filters, due to this effect. I guess I prefer living with some noise, rather than adding this other effect. A really good test for this, is the ST:TNG eposodes during dark scenes. Try "Times Arrow" 1 or 2 in the caverns! Or for that matter, any badly transferred DVD.

Another way to put this is that FFDShow seems very good at sharpening and stoping the usual "moving" noise in the background, while smoothing out the image at the same time. However, in doing so, it causes this side effect if certain controls are set too high or even at recommended levels. I have only found that a higher resize tends to counteract this, but at the price of sharpness.

Just to comment on what everyone else has said...

I agree, using DVI over RGB can yield a huge improvement in PQ. By comparing a DVD player over DVI to HTPC over RGB, you're comparing apples to oranges. My guess is that a properly setup PC, properly tweaked, will yield better PQ than any DVD player.

If someone finds a DVD player that outperforms an optimized HTPC, please let me know. It would save me a lot of hassles


I agree, I had a 931 connected via DVI when they first came out and my new HTPC with TT (not even tweaked yet) produces a substantially better picture than the DVI player ever did.

So here's where I'm at....

Athlon 64 2800+
512 MB Corsair PC333 Ram
ATI 9600XT w/256MB

TT - patched to latest version
FFDShow - Latest Alpha version (08/08 I think)

TT by itself plays DVD's beautifully, I've also watched some WMVD HD demo's on the machine and it plays them no problem without stuttering or hesitation. When I switch TT to FFDshow post processing the OSD shows the CPU load jumping between 50 and 100% and the playback is more jittery than smooth. It's close to being smooth but the individual frames are still visible.

Starting at the Bios I've triple checked and everything is optimized, AGP 8x etc. I checked over the PC setup and the memory, Videocard and CPU are all listed correctly. DMA is enabled etc. etc. I've made sure that no uneccesary programs are running at startup and I configured FFDShow just as the guide at HTPCnews describes and like you guys have done yet I still can't get smooth playback with FFDshow on.

In FFDshow I shut off all codecs, including the ones on by default so that only Raw Video was on (All). I moved Blur & NR to the top of the list and set it up typical way. I then moved resize up the list and placed it underneath Blur & NR setting it to Lanczos 4 and 1440 x 960. Everything else is off. The results are were stated above.....

What am I missing? Should I benchmark the PC to see if anything is holding it back? I've tried with several resizes and even with resize off, I've rebooted the PC several times between changes yet the CPU load is still pinging 100% Some of you folks are running slower PC's with no problem and I've seen some running similiar speeds at higher settings with no problems.

My only thoughts are the fact that the setting in the Control panel that the FFDshpow guide mentions isn't present and therfor wasn't tweaked. Otherwise I'm stumped.......

Supertoyz: turn off the OSD, watch task-manager CPU utilization instead. Also, get the SSE2 version (since your 64 can use it).

I've got a 9800 Pro OC'd to a 405mhz clockspeed, a Barton 2800+ OC'd to 2.3ghz, and 768 megs of pc3200 ram. I run Lanczos 4 @ 1920x1080 (resize to res), .6 luma sharpen, 0 chroma, and i run denoise3d @ 0/0/5hq.

With that, I hit 90-95% CPU use, and get no stutters at all for DVD playback.

I do, however, use ZoomPlayer instead of TT.

What video decoder/audio decoder are you using? Elecard, for example, gives me bad CPU usage, while cyberlink's has lower quality, and Windvd6/intervideo gives a great performance/quality combo.

Originally posted by Supertoyz


In FFDshow I shut off all codecs, including the ones on by default so that only Raw Video was on (All). I moved Blur & NR to the top of the list and set it up typical way. I then moved resize up the list and placed it underneath Blur & NR setting it to Lanczos 4 and 1440 x 960. Everything else is off. The results are were stated above.....



When you say "typical" Blur & NR, what do you mean?

What you described before is normally associated with just running resize without a filter enabled in front of it.

Yes, why don't you try the trial version of WinDVD 6 (software), and use that video codec instead?

What is this setting in the Control Panel? I've never done it!

I am running right now at under 40% with 1376x768 resize (L=.5), and Denoise FAST afterward. I'm using TT (1.5.64) and FDShow (20040801a_preview_SSE2.exe.). Even with adding DScaler and resize to 2160x1440, I'm only at 74% max.

I hate to be repetitive, but again... Reclock? Might be helpful.

I use NVDVD audio codec for ffdshow, just outputting via spdif with no processing.

I also tried downloading the AC3 software, just to see if I get better sound. But when I turn it on, ZP just freezes. I think I tried unchecking the SPDIF (Disabled) checkbox on the first tab, and ZP didn't freeze. But I got no audio from it.

Maybe my settings aren't right.

Will I get better-sounding audio with this AC3 filter, if I can get it running correctly (how would I get it running correctly?)? Am I getting good sound with my current audio codec? I've read people who went from one audio codec to another and got a lot better sound/detail.

if you're just using SPDIF there should be no difference at all

Originally posted by Carey P

I tried the 16/235 Input with the two checked boxes and this made my bright whites get crushed and I lost detail near the blacks (crushed blacks) I thought 7/255 might have been ok, but then realized I was still losing detal in the blacks. Increasing Gamma helped, but really the best picture overall was to just leave it at 0/255 or turn off Levels altogether. I think even the Gamma accentuates the post-processing noise at this point. I guess it's just not for me.


This was similar to my experiments with using the level controls. Adjusting the levels settings make a huge difference in the picture and I would recommend changing these only if there are real problems with the brightness and picture settings on your display device... and everyones output device will be different...

In my case I use a calibrated DILA based front projector. The picture is accurate everywhere (color, brightness, white level, etc.) with the exception that DILA has high black level so that the picture falls apart in the 0-10 IRE region. My thinking was to try and push up the blacks a bit via ffdshow level to get better shadow detail. After a lot of experimentation I ended up at 4/255 (leaves the whites unchanged and performs a subtle shift at the bottom with the blacks). I did verify that i was getting better shadow detail but at the expense of overall black level (ie the blacks were elevated and looked more brownish than black). So I'm not using levels anymore.

Originally posted by Carey P
BTW, hasn't anyone (with a big enough screen) noticed the very subtle ghosting effects (sort of a trailing ghost or blotchiness) occasionally seen on moving parts of the image with a solid background? It's very hard to describe (but it's not there with FFDShow turned off using DXVA and TheaterTek). That's why I hadn't brought it up before. But this is exactly the thing I must fight with the controls to reduce. I found I can't use too high of a setting for luma sharpness or other filters, due to this effect. I guess I prefer living with some noise, rather than adding this other effect. A really good test for this, is the ST:TNG eposodes during dark scenes. Try "Times Arrow" 1 or 2 in the caverns! Or for that matter, any badly transferred DVD.


Interesting! I've heard of this problem from others, in fact if I recall Alan Gouger posted that he stoped using ffdshow because of this exact problem. I've been looking for this artifact but haven't seen it yet. I typically use low settings (prefer a unprocessed look) for everything so maybe that's why I've never seen it. What value of luma sharpen are you seeing it with? I typically use between .8 and 1.0.

Mark,

On your first reply, aren't you referring to setting 4/255 on the Output rather than the input? I did see this effect using the output in this way and didn't like it much either.

It's hard to pinpoint when the other anomoly begins to show its ugly head. I think it's really there all the time with any FFDShow setting but it does not appear very noticeable in well mastered DVD's with usual settings. In this case the other benefits of FFDShow override it.

With poorly mastered DVD's, If you're looking for real numbers, I'd say anything over 0.4 to 0.5 for Luma sharpness can show it. But Denoise3D can help bring it out too. It all may have to do with what decoder is being used and I'm sticking with TT's Sonic right now until 2.0 comes out. Then we'll see. For now, a resize of DVDx3 seems to suppress this effect but only good for badly mastered edge-enhanced DVD's and all Star Trek:TNG's :D.

Supertoyz,

Although I am using ZoomPlayer, I had ramdom jerky playback with some version of ffdshow (but not all). I discovered that WMR9 renderer cause the jerkiness depending on the version of ffdshow. When I use overlay renderer, I got smooth playback all the time with every version of ffdshow I tried. I don't know if the video renderer is configurable with TT. May be worth to check it out.

I wonder if that is the same type of thing I noticed with skin textures and other near-monocolor sections, with floating/crawling textures. This came from over-denoise in the cases I found, as I was playing with it, saw funny skin textures, and turned it off.

And that's why I don't denoise at all, have 0 or only .20 L sharpen on Lanscoz resize to 1920x1080, and sometimes add a tiny bit of noise/grain.

Too much processing and filtering (and even sharpening, which can make grass and detailed textures look worse) degrades the picture, IMO. Sometimes you can get the picture sharper, but you degrade the picture in other ways.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingKong954
What video decoder/audio decoder are you using? Elecard, for example, gives me bad CPU usage, while cyberlink's has lower quality, and Windvd6/intervideo gives a great performance/quality combo. [/QUOTE

I apologize but I just started with HTPC's a few weeks ago and I'm not really sure the answer to your question yet. I'm using whatever TT uses.....Sonic I think. As far as audio goes I'm using the onboard audio so it's whatever Abit uses....let me check Abits site..... Realtek ALC658 audio AC'97 2.3 Codec.

Originally posted by Carey P
What is this setting in the Control Panel? I've never done it!


It's explained in the htpcnews ffdshow guide. It confused me as well. I also looked for it and couldn't find it. My guess is that you have to download the cineplayer codecs pack separately from the player to see this. Since I use TT which includes everything as part of the install the codecs don't show up as a separate SW package in control panel. The htpcnews guide goes on to say that the step isn't really needed anyway (it's just a double check to make sure that the codecs are configured properly).

Unless you're really, really stuck on TT, why don't you try downloading Zoom Player 4 Pro and see how that works with ffdshow. In ZP you go into the advanced DVD settings and select which codecs to use for audio, video, and additional filters. It's shareware (supposed to pay/register after trial), and it may give you more control and/or better performance than TT.

Originally posted by SicteR
if you're just using SPDIF there should be no difference at all

But on the ZP DVD Settings page, there is video codec, with audio below that. Then in the middle column on top, above additional filters, it has the output device. I have about five choices, and I think it's set to Default xxxsomething audioxxx Device. Would this make any difference, setting which hard/software the audio is sent out to the SPDIF through?

Originally posted by jvincent
When you say "typical" Blur & NR, what do you mean?

What you described before is normally associated with just running resize without a filter enabled in front of it.

I'm just going from memory but I think it's the following

Blur and NR moved to the top of the list

denoise 3d - .5 / .5 / 5 HQ

Resize moved up right below Blur & NR

Resize - 1440 x 960 / Lanczos 4

Basically I followed the instructions exactly as stated in the guide at HTPCnews, when that didn't work I began adding some of the tips from this thread. For those that haven't read the guide I'm referring to.

FFDshow guide (http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1)

Originally posted by cyberbri
I wonder if that is the same type of thing I noticed with skin textures and other near-monocolor sections, with floating/crawling textures. This came from over-denoise in the cases I found, as I was playing with it, saw funny skin textures, and turned it off.

And that's why I don't denoise at all, have 0 or only .20 L sharpen on Lanscoz resize to 1920x1080, and sometimes add a tiny bit of noise/grain.

Too much processing and filtering (and even sharpening, which can make grass and detailed textures look worse) degrades the picture, IMO. Sometimes you can get the picture sharper, but you degrade the picture in other ways. If you are referring to my reply, I have seen what you describe too, for high Luma in Denoise3D, though now I'm using FAST which negates that and no longer produces "that" effect.

This other phenomenon is more like an image trailing or background ghosting overlayed on the image, as if the postprocessing was lagging somehow. It's almost like a glaze or a film over the image that wants to line up with the main image but doesn't, and follows it around, but only occurs in certains areas of the image, like darker regions. I don't know how else to describe it without confusing the issue further. If you don't look for it on a big screen, then you probably won't notice it, but I think most of us here are getting pretty critical about their viewing (why else use FDShow?). I'm afraid once you see it though, you'll never stop and get obsessed with getting rid of it. Remeber, you won't see it on reference quality DVD's.

Originally posted by madpoet
I hate to be repetitive, but again... Reclock? Might be helpful.

I'll try that tonight......the reason I hesitate is because the first night I had the HTPC running I installed TT and Reclock, I had no issues with TT, as soon as I installed Reclock I had some stuttering so I uninstalled it. Granted I didn't spend much time checking settings and configuration but since I had no issues with TT I didn't see the need for Reclock at that time.

Originally posted by cyberbri
But on the ZP DVD Settings page, there is video codec, with audio below that. Then in the middle column on top, above additional filters, it has the output device. I have about five choices, and I think it's set to Default xxxsomething audioxxx Device. Would this make any difference, setting which hard/software the audio is sent out to the SPDIF through?
That has nothing to do with your original question

Think of SPDIF as 'audio being left alone as it is' type of transport to external device.

Originally posted by Carey P

On your first reply, aren't you referring to setting 4/255 on the Output rather than the input? I did see this effect using the output in this way and didn't like it much either.


Yup, I only used the levels settings on the output. I tried experimenting with the input settings but they didn't seem to effect anything. Any ideas on what exactly the input levels do?

For what I was trying to accomplish (ie boost only 0-10IRE picture detail up by about 5 IRE) it seemed like the output setting was the way to go. I'm curious to hear if there is a better way.

Originally posted by Carey P
It's hard to pinpoint when the other anomoly begins to show its ugly head. I think it's really there all the time with any FFDShow setting but it does not appear very noticeable in well mastered DVD's with usual settings. In this case the other benefits of FFDShow override it.

With poorly mastered DVD's, If you're looking for real numbers, I'd say anything over 0.4 to 0.5 for Luma sharpness can show it. But Denoise3D can help bring it out too. It all may have to do with what decoder is being used and I'm sticking with TT's Sonic right now until 2.0 comes out. Then we'll see. For now, a resize of DVDx3 seems to suppress this effect but only good for badly mastered edge-enhanced DVD's and all Star Trek:TNG's :D. [/B]

This is disappointing to hear. I wish that high-quality algorithms specifically designed for home theater were available as a post processor plug-in for HTPC's. I'm tempted to buy an algolith mosquito but since it's a STB I'll lose the benefits of 1:1 mapping (everything is upscaled to 1080i). FFdshow sounds like a great utility for poor divx transfers and I believe it to still offer benefits for decent DVD transfers but it could be much better...

Originally posted by cyberbri
I wonder if that is the same type of thing I noticed with skin textures and other near-monocolor sections, with floating/crawling textures. This came from over-denoise in the cases I found, as I was playing with it, saw funny skin textures, and turned it off.

And that's why I don't denoise at all, have 0 or only .20 L sharpen on Lanscoz resize to 1920x1080, and sometimes add a tiny bit of noise/grain.

Too much processing and filtering (and even sharpening, which can make grass and detailed textures look worse) degrades the picture, IMO. Sometimes you can get the picture sharper, but you degrade the picture in other ways.

Yup, I saw this same thing (weird floating skin textures or what I call "patchiness"). I found that I never see this anymore when using denoise3d after resize with low settings. Owen posted that when using denoise3d after resize that the effects are greatly reduced so that's why I'm still using denoise3d. I also agree about using too much sharpen. I haven't experimented too much with Luma sharpen but if its similar to the other recommended settings I'll probably reduce it further.

Fwiw, I am liking a little bit of dscaler sharpen. In fact I used it on WMV-HD material and liked the effect there too.

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
Yup, I only used the levels settings on the output. I tried experimenting with the input settings but they didn't seem to effect anything. Any ideas on what exactly the input levels do?

For what I was trying to accomplish (ie boost only 0-10IRE picture detail up by about 5 IRE) it seemed like the output setting was the way to go. I'm curious to hear if there is a better way.The input levels do what I described earlier. They make the whites brighter, but by clipping them, and the blacks blacker by clipping them too below a selected level. You can easily see this effect by running the sliders while the movie is playing. Use a scene with near saturated whites or near black detail. I think the better way, is to have a custom Gamma curve that boosts only the lower black region just right. I've tried this already with my HS20 using a utility program but haven't got a good Gamma curve loaded yet for this.

Originally posted by Mark Petersen
Yup, I only used the levels settings on the output. I tried experimenting with the input settings but they didn't seem to effect anything. Any ideas on what exactly the input levels do?


Opposite of output levels. As in, boosting the 0 input will make the blacks darker, and lowering 255 will make the highs higher. Boosting the output will make blacks lighter (and more detail) and highs lower, respectively.

I suppose to should update on here how my ffdshow experience is so far.

AMD1800 Radeon 9200se, Theater Tek 1.5.6, FFDSHOW 4272004

Resize 720x480 Lum 1.0 C 0, Denoise3D .5 1 5 HQ

Powerstrip set res to 1280x720@72hz

I tried Input 16/235 but I had to pump up my brightness on my Marquee 8500 crt projector with 8' screen to 60. To get good gray scale.
Then I tried Output 16/235. Nicer. The blacks and white are less crushed and I was able to change my Brightness to 30.
Im not entirely convinced I had to do this. But was talked into it by others are on here that have scopes.

Wish I could do 1280x720 resize but my CPU is too slow. I saw a Pent4 2.4 with MB on sale at Fry's for $109

Interesting, sounds like I have some more experimenting to do with the input level parameters. I'm leaving for a camping trip though so it'll have to wait until next week. In the meantime, good luck and good tweaking!!

I tried setting the input levels to 16/235, but I lose the BTB bar in DVE. Changing the outputs requires readjusting the brightness/contrast, I've decided to leave them at 0/255 for now, though I do have the gamma up to 1.10.

If your only "problem" is too-dark darks, boosting output level will give you more shadow detail (try boosting input 0 to see darks get darker). Doing it through gammar brings up the brightness of the whole picture, IINM, so you might get a washed out effect.

small update:
The C/L sliders for "fast" denoise should gray out but dont do it always (bug)

I also read owens suggestion about higher C/L for after resize usage and i will try to implement a fast version where u can change the C/L values or at least a version with hardcoded coefs (need input from u here what values to hardcode)



PS: since i just got a new job in a new city im kinda busy atm since i need relocate ... i will try to release a new version if i have more time

Originally posted by AndyIEG
I also read owens suggestion about higher C/L for after resize usage and i will try to implement a fast version where u can change the C/L values or at least a version with hardcoded coefs (need input from u here what values to hardcode)Owen suggested L=1, C=2, T=5 if "after" Resize. Basically C needs to be twice L, and they both should be double what they would be if done before Resize. I personally would much rather see it user selectable, at least in steps of 0.5 starting at L=0.5, C=1.0. and maybe T=5 or 6. My 2c.

Good luck with your move!

What is getting confusing is all the reading about the various levels people are using and I dont know if they are using overlay of vmr9 or what? There is a huge difference between the way overlay and vmr9 looks on my system and each requires vastly different settings to even things up and get to a point where I "think" I can tell which looks better.

Brian

I been using VMR9 for some time, once you get used to VRM9, there's no go back. This is not a major issue but If only i could select DVD menu content with windowless setting.........

There is a lot of talk about levels at the moment.
This topic was heavily discussed in another thread some time ago and from memory, the results where that only VMR7 and VMR9 correctly display the full luma range from 0-255.
Overlay on a Radeon, and I think on Nvidia as well, crushes blacks and whites. The above white and below black information is lost. Adjusting Contrast down, Brightness up and Gamma in you player should provide an acceptable result if you are using overlay.
As a last resort, the Levels adjustment may help.

For people using VMR7 or VMR9, there should be no need to use the levels filter.
You should adjust your display for correct blacks and whites using the Brightness and Contrast controls.
If you still can’t get an acceptable result, try adjusting the Brightness control in you player. This is only an option for VMR9 users, as VMR7 dose not support this and you will need to adjust in FFDShow.

So to round up;

1. Adjust you display as best as possible first.

2. Adjust Brightness, Contrast and Gamma in your player. (This uses video hardware to adjust)

3. As a last resort use the FFDShow Levels or Picture Properties filters.

I use a Radeon with VMR9, and have no problems getting full luma range on screen with all player picture controls at default and without any need for Levels adjustment.
VMR9 also allows me to adjust Brightness and Color in Zoom Player as required for various DVD’s.

The above is only a guide, but it works for me.



Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

I found using levels as people have described (radeon overlay here) simply increases "full black" to the point i look up to ensure some bugger hasn't swapped my DLP for an LCD :)

I find with overlay pushing any more than "factory" brightness in player or FFDShow simply increases the black floor.

Gamma on the other hand can provide good results if increased a little.

Speaking of VMR9 vs Overlay, is anybody using WinDVD5 codec with VMR9? Because when I try this configuration, I just get no image at all (just black). WinDVD5 codec works with Overlay though. Also, PowerDVD codec works with both VMR9 and Overlay on my setup. I kind of prefer the look of WinDVD over PowerDVD codec, but I would like to use VMR9 also. Now I am stuck with either PowerDVD/VMR9 or WinDVD/Overlay.
Another question, what's the general opinion about the quality of Sonic Cinemaster, WinDVD and PowerDVD codec? Which one yield the best picture. I have bought a licence if Sonic Cinemaster, but due to lack of internet access at home right now, I can't activate it.
Thanks

Originally posted by fp007
Speaking of VMR9 vs Overlay, is anybody using WinDVD5 codec with VMR9? Because when I try this configuration, I just get no image at all (just black). WinDVD5 codec works with Overlay though. Also, PowerDVD codec works with both VMR9 and Overlay on my setup. I kind of prefer the look of WinDVD over PowerDVD codec, but I would like to use VMR9 also. Now I am stuck with either PowerDVD/VMR9 or WinDVD/Overlay.
Another question, what's the general opinion about the quality of Sonic Cinemaster, WinDVD and PowerDVD codec? Which one yield the best picture. I have bought a licence if Sonic Cinemaster, but due to lack of internet access at home right now, I can't activate it.
Thanks

Are you running something like AnyDVD or DVDIdle which will stip Macrovision? If not, you need to. I was seeing the same thing with WinDVD5 until I put on AnyDVD. You should also experiment with VMR7. VMR9 is pretty notorous for problems with tearing and at least for me these problems don't happen in VMR7.

-Pat

Thanks, I'll try that. But could you explain why I would need to strip Macrovision pretection to use VMR9? Why this is not an issue when using overlay? Also, why PowerDVD doesn't have the same problem with VMR9?

Yeah, I can't do WinDVD with VMR anything. I tried switching last night, but decided just to stick with Overlay and WinDVD 6.


I also experimented with different ways of addressing the dark levels on my setup (was using Levels output 16/235), tried gamma, etc., but ended up just boosting brightness and contrast (maybe contrast was down from default, can't remember) on the Overaly panel. I think I like this much better. It's hard to tell with individual movie scenes, but the THX shadow screen on THX setup discs (Monsters Inc is the one I use) really helps.

Originally posted by fp007
Thanks, I'll try that. But could you explain why I would need to strip Macrovision pretection to use VMR9? Why this is not an issue when using overlay? Also, why PowerDVD doesn't have the same problem with VMR9?

No idea, sorry. I just chalked it up to some copy protection Intervideo was trying to do in their decoder. Considering all of the crap I had to go through to get the windvd codecs working at all (abstract, registry keys, etc) I just looked at it as another hurdle. I'm just hoping the NV4.0 codec is a lot cleaner and easier and I can pull some of this stuff off of my system.

3. As a last resort use the FFDShow Levels or Picture Properties filters.

Owen
Why are they a last resort? They seem highly configurable to me. I like to keep my desktop levels very low on my CRT FP so in order to do that I need to compensate using FFD show picture properties and perhaps levels in VMR9. I switched to VMR9 from overlay to exploit the advantages. Using overlay this was never an issue.
You also mention that you can use ZP color controls in VMR9 with a Radeon and ZP.
I can't do that. They do not work for me with Radeon 9600, ZP, FFD and Win DVD filters ver 5 or 6. I think i have confirmed this on a few diff versions of FFD but can not recall which ones.
I was under the impression that the levels were directly effected by desktop briteness in VMR9. I had assumed/hoped that part of the function of this filter was to compensate for I/P levels just like I need. Was this wishful thinking?
Since I run a very low desktop level what do you think good level settings would be to compensate in conjunction with picture properties?

Steve

Would someone please enlighten me as to what I'm doing wrong?

ZP will play properly using WinDVD video and AC3Filter audio codecs. Haven't seen any problems.

When I introduce FFDShow, several anomalies occur:

1. Playback of DVD cannot be started from the HDTV. ZP must be started with the ZP window in the main monitor window, then dragged to the HDTV to get playback started.

2. Once playback initiates, at random points of DVD play, the video stream will pause, but the audio continues unaffected.

I thought it may be HT technology on my P4 3.0GHz, so I disabled it - no dice. Playback becomes unstable as soon as I introduce FFDShow to ZP, even with no filters enabled.

This is driving me crazy. Someone please lend a hand.

TIA.

Originally posted by Energeezer
Owen
Why are they a last resort? They seem highly configurable to me. I like to keep my desktop levels very low on my CRT FP so in order to do that I need to compensate using FFD show picture properties and perhaps levels in VMR9. I switched to VMR9 from overlay to exploit the advantages. Using overlay this was never an issue.
You also mention that you can use ZP color controls in VMR9 with a Radeon and ZP.
I can't do that. They do not work for me with Radeon 9600, ZP, FFD and Win DVD filters ver 5 or 6. I think i have confirmed this on a few diff versions of FFD but can not recall which ones.
I was under the impression that the levels were directly effected by desktop briteness in VMR9. I had assumed/hoped that part of the function of this filter was to compensate for I/P levels just like I need. Was this wishful thinking?
Since I run a very low desktop level what do you think good level settings would be to compensate in conjunction with picture properties?

Steve


Yours is a special case Energeezer.

If you are going to use VMR7 output and want desktop dull and your video bright, you don’t have much choice but to use FFDShow to adjust brightness etc, but it is a less then ideal solution.
VMR9 allows adjustment of the video card settings via the player.
Zoom Players picture controls work fine with VMR9 and overlay for me, using a Radeon, and always have. This has nothing to do with FFDShow.

VMR should provide a standard maximum output of 0.7 volts from the video card at a full Lumma level of 255 with all picture controls at default.
If you adjust Contrast in your player or in the video card control panel, your are asking for greater then the standard 0.7 volts at full Lumma (255) and the video card and possibly the displays input circuit’s way be overloaded and you run the risk of crushing white levels.
As long as you don’t go to fare with this you MAY be able to get away with it so don’t worry too much if it works for you.

If you use FFDSHow to adjust, and attempt to get a brighter and higher contrast picture to compensate for your display being set up darker for desktop use, you will crush white levels.
As long as you are only attempting to improve shadow detail, you should be ok.

In the end, the only way to get full Luma range, without clipping is to adjust your display correctly for video playback with all player and video card picture controls at default settings. FFDShow can’t give you any more contrast either. Only improved shadow detail.
That will mean that your desktop will be too bright for you, but that is unavoidable.
All you can do is try and avoid using a desktop color scheme that uses bright colors and white.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by Pratticus
Would someone please enlighten me as to what I'm doing wrong?

ZP will play properly using WinDVD video and AC3Filter audio codecs. Haven't seen any problems.

When I introduce FFDShow, several anomalies occur:

1. Playback of DVD cannot be started from the HDTV. ZP must be started with the ZP window in the main monitor window, then dragged to the HDTV to get playback started.

2. Once playback initiates, at random points of DVD play, the video stream will pause, but the audio continues unaffected.

I thought it may be HT technology on my P4 3.0GHz, so I disabled it - no dice. Playback becomes unstable as soon as I introduce FFDShow to ZP, even with no filters enabled.

This is driving me crazy. Someone please lend a hand.

TIA.

So you have a monitor on VGA and your HDTV through DVI?

I can't help with #1, as I don't have it set up like that.

But with #2, what version of WinDVD are you using? I had been using WinDVD 4 codecs, and had that problem all the time - every 5- 10 minutes the video would freeze. Then I upgraded to WinDVD 6 codecs, added DMO_V Abstract before ffdshow in ZP's Additional Filters, and set the registry value for it (Pasteurization) to 0 - problem fixed.

Here's the thread that talks more about it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=426984

BTW, I myself couldn't get the AC3 audio codec to work with ZP/ffdshow and WinDVD codec. I just use my NVDVD audio codec which passes it straight out to my receiver over SPDIF

Also be sure you are using a new version of ffdshow.

Thanks cyberbri.

Yes, my monitor comes off VGA and HDTV off DVI simultaneously giving me a very large virtual desktop.

I tried adding the DMO_V Abstract entry again and still would not work. The WinDVD codecs are version 6.

Dunno what else to try. =/

Well, you coud try uninstalling ffdshow and ZP. then starting over, making sure you have the newest ffdshow.


Personally, I can't get my DVI out to work off my nVidia 5200 Ultra. The VGA works fine, but trying the DVI messes everything up (I tried it before and it didn't work, and I've been trying to get it to work for a couple hours today already with no luck)...

Pratticus,
be sure you're using VMR9 as overlay may be limited to 1 screen only

Another question, what's the general opinion about the quality of Sonic Cinemaster, WinDVD and PowerDVD codec?

For me, Sonic Cinemaster is hands down the winner. Which seems to be the opposite opinion of some others on this thread. But its not even close on my setup (Barco 808 and Radeon HTPC) and Sonic uses less headroom than windvd and especially powerdvd. So that clinches it for me.

Now, last night I tried experimenting back and forth between VMR9 and overlay. In each and every case with every decoder I tried I preferred the overlay. There was a more 3d depth to the picture. Overlay always looks like there is a haze over the picture and it looks like some filter has processed away the detail as well. The contrast and brightness are very different from overlay to vmr9 requiring me to make totally different changes. I was switching back and forth on a close up scene in Mystic River and when switching to overlay I could no longer see the detail, imperfections, in the close up of the person's face.

And lets not even get into the tearing with VMR9...

Brian

usabrian could you reword that 2nd paragraph please? Didn't make sense of it. :)
Thanks

I'm getting pin errors with VMR7 or 9 in Dscaler with the newest version. Not sure what is going wrong, but I can't get any of my codecs to connect to it. They all give errors out from the codec in to FFDShow or out from FFDShow in to VMR7 or VMR9.

Latest FFDShow preview version
Latest ZP version
DX9.0b
Radeon X800XT
Elecard 2510, Sonic, and Nvidia 3.0 codecs all tried. All work in Overlay mode.

-MP

usabrian, I agree with you on the sonic decoders. I have an infocus 7200 with ati card and I perfer the sonic decoder over the others.

Yes, my monitor comes off VGA and HDTV off DVI simultaneously giving me a very large virtual desktop.


I have quite similar setup with VGA to monitor(1024) and DVI (720p)to projector via DVI cable. I hardly use both at the same time ( no reason to), so just switch both displays with hot key. Switch to you HDTV display then play with full screen, that works for me. If you try clone mode, overlay video to 2nd monitors while player on 1st mon is probably not possible.

be sure you're using VMR9 as overlay may be limited to 1 screen only
You could try this if that works for you.

As fare as DVD decoders are concerned, the Sonic decoder is not the best choice for FFDShow users.
The Sonic decoder works well in DXVA accelerated mode (without FFDShow), but performance is noticeably degraded in software mode. FFDShow FORCES the decoder into software mode.
The main area of performance degradation is in the area of noise. Sonic in software mode suffers from a lot of noise in shadow areas.

I stopped using Sonic when WinDVD 4.5 Platinum was released for that reason, and have never looked back.

I have stopped using WinDVD in favor of the Elecard decoder (2510) which I much prefer to WinDVD 4,5,or 6.
Elecard is cleaner, clearer and has less noise then and other decoder I have used and it works perfectly for PAL. NTSC users report aspect ratio problems with the 2510 build of Elecard and newer builds have chroma bug.
Elecard does not support sub titles, so menus don’t work properly but quality is second to none.
I have not bothered with NVDVD3 as it is not yet released, but it is reported to be just as good as Elecard and supports sub titles if that matters to you.

I cannot comment on Power DVD as I have never used it.


The issue of VMR9 verses Overlay is interesting.
As a Radeon user, I have a problem with color balance with overlay.
Overlay exaggerates orange/red tones noticeably.

Then there is the problem of black and white level crush with overlay. Above white 235-255 and below black 0-16 levels are lost. This can mostly be corrected buy adjusting Contrast down and Brightness up but gamma is still wrong with overlay.
This gives an exaggerated contrast or 3d look to the image that some people may prefer, but shadow detail and white detail are lost.

Lastly, it appears that Overlay on a Radeon applies sharpening to the image. Some people will like this and some not.

VMR on the other hand retains the full luma range of 0-255 and has an apparently higher gamma level the Overlay. Some people may think that it looks washed out compared to Overlay but it is actually more accurate and gives far better shadow detail.
You may need to readjust your display and picture settings to suit, so you can’t just swap between Overlay and VMR to evaluate relative quality.

VMR has accurate color with an apparent greater bit depth. Overlay can sometimes looks like 16bit with banding and blocking visible.

VMR9 (not sure about VMR7) looks very soft compared to Overlay on a Radeon unless substantial resize is used in FFDShow. The higher you resize the sharper VMR9 gets.
On my system, using a resize of 1920x1080 or higher, VMR9 gives me a very sharp, yet clean and natural looking image with less noise and without the harsh digital look of Overlay.

I use VMR9 over VMR7 because I don’t have any tearing problems on my Radeon 9600Pro and VMR9 allows me to use Zoom Players picture controls for minor adjustments.
VMR7 may match the quality of VMR7 but I don’t need to use it so I can’t really comment. VMR7 dose not have the tearing problems of VMR9, but it just drops frames in stead on my system.
Nvidia card users seem to be having big tearing problems with VMR9.

These are my findings, buy as always you will need to make your own decision about what to use.



Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by Owen
I stopped using Sonic when WinDVD 4.5 Platinum was released for that reason, and have never looked back.

I have stopped using WinDVD in favor of the Elecard decoder (2510) which I much prefer to WinDVD 4,5,or 6.
Elecard is cleaner, clearer and has less noise then and other decoder I have used and it works perfectly for PAL. NTSC users report aspect ratio problems with the 2510 build of Elecard and newer builds have chroma bug.
Elecard does not support sub titles, so menus don’t work properly but quality is second to none.



the last comparisons ive seen between codecs has shown me NILL difference elecard and windvd6. I'd love to see some screen caps showing what you see, Owen.

I use windvd6 because it's less CPU intensive, offers menu support [albeit crappy], and seems to match the quality of other codecs.

Anyone have any ideas on my pin error problems? :(

*edit* Found my problem... forgot that the output defaults to all sorts of things in FFDShow and I needed to set it to just 1.

Thank you for rehashing what options are available these days Owen. I use Theater Tek hence Sonic filters with a Radeon card and have ben using FFDshow to resize to 720x480 with Denoise3D with your settings.
Im going to try watching a movie tonight with ffdshow turned off and look for a differance.
Pentium 4 cpu's are dropping fast in price lately and may wait to use ffdshow again when I get one. Using AMD 1800 right now.

Theater Tek is coming out soon with Theater Tek 2. I heard that it will use the new nVidia filters. I have no clue how FFDshow will work with the new TT2. I tried asking on here and TT forum but didn't get a very usefull response. Seems that all they care about is all these uneeded audio options that TT2 will have.

@ Owen

You are most certainly a very nice guy, "helping" out people all the time, and so on.... And please don`t get this wrong, I don`t mean to be rude or unrespectfull or anything, BUT being the most active member on this board you should really invest more time in gathering und understanding information to support all your "advice" you are giving.

your very last post is a good example for that:

" As a Radeon user, I have a problem with color balance with overlay.
Overlay exaggerates orange/red tones noticeably."

Thats what you are telling people. People are believing you (no wonder with your number of posts). From that post on they think they know about an issue with ATIs overlay.

Real information would read like: Since Catalyst 3.7 (so it has nothing to do with ATIs hardware implementation of Overlay) ATI has implemented the HDTV color matrix (which differs from the SDTV CM) for all vertical resolutions >=720 rendered via Overlay. So if you resize your SDTV signal (DVD content) via ffdshow to >= X x 720 ATIs driver assumes a native HDTV signal and applies its color matrix (which is wrong for SDTV content, and not even accurate for HDTV content).

"Then there is the problem of black and white level crush with overlay. Above white 235-255 and below black 0-16 levels are lost. This can mostly be corrected buy adjusting Contrast down and Brightness up but gamma is still wrong with overlay.
This gives an exaggerated contrast or 3d look to the image that some people may prefer, but shadow detail and white detail are lost."

On a digital display output device you should not be able to see levels other than YUVs 16-235 range.I recall you are using a Samsung DLP. To use all your displays contrast capability (RGB device -> 0-255 level range) you have to convert "video" black (DVDs are YV12 encoded -> black is RGB 16) to the black of your output device (RGB device -> black is RGB 0). The same with white (YUV white (-> RGB 235) must be the "whitest" white of your display device (RGB 255)). If you are outputting YUV material to an digital device somewhere along the way YUV levels (16-235) need to be converted to RGB (0-255). If you see "above" white and black levels on test DVDs (-> AVIA, DVE) this is not done correctly. These "above" levels are only present on special DVDs for setting the right contrast and brightness (= black point) of your display chain. You don`t have them on any other DVD. If you see "blacker than black" on your test charts the pure black in DVDs (RGB 16) is never pure black on your display. It is dark grey. You DONT want to have that. You are wasting your displays contrast range. High quality DLPs can show good enough black levels nowadays (in contrast to LCD devices). You are wasting yours by feeding it with grey signals instead of black (RGB 0). Try ffdshow levels: input 16-235 (probably you can go to 14-235 before your displays black gets grey), output 0-255 Full range. You may not like the higher contrast of it, but thats the right setting. Gives you an almost perfect 2.2 gamma curve with VMR9. Confirmed by an ISF calibration on my system (Radeon 9800pro->VMR9->DVI->Sharp Z10000) and by logic! Think about it...


" These are my findings, buy as always you will need to make your own decision about what to use."

Finally I found a sentence I can agree to...


@ AndyIEG

Please allow for two questions about ffdshow:

Does the new Denoise3D Fast mode differ from the previous HQ mode or the standard mode in any other way than the limitation of luma/chroma parameters? Does FAST mean it performs less advanced algorithms for denoising?

To you think it would be possible to make multiple filter instancing an option for future ffdshow releases. For instance I would enjoy the possibility of using the resize filter twice in my filter chain. That way I can upscale to some really high resolution ("unlimited" because just the VMR9 output is restricted by the graphic card driver/memory), do some filtering there (sharpening if needed, deinterlacing, denoising, whatever...) and use a second instance of the resizing filter afterwards to scale down to my native display resolution (with better results/more options than VMR9 linear resizing). THAT WOULD BE A WONDERFULL FEATURE!!!!

Thanks anyway!