Originally posted by Kram Sacul
What's wrong with the Sonic decoder in software mode?

It’s grainy, noisy in shadow areas and lacking in detail.

Sonic is definitely NOT recommended for use with FFDShow.

It is at the same end of the food chain as PowerDVD.

Regards,

Owen

Do you have picture comparisons? Maybe it seems noisy because it doesn't smooth the picture over in softness. ;)

Kram,

This subject has been done to death.

Sonic has NEVER been any good in software mode. (with FFDShow)

I stopped using it when WinDVD 4.5 Platinum was released, about 12 months ago.
NVDVD 2.55 was tested when released and it also had big problems in software mode with color banding.

I dropped WinDVD 4.5, 5.0 in favor of Elecard build 2510.

I have not used the now just released NVDVD 4.0 decoder, but the prerelease versions I have used, had color banding problems for me in software mode on my Radeon system. I will wait till I get to use the final version before I pass judgment on it.

I currently have WinDVD 6, Elecard and NVDVD 4.0 installed, but prefer to use Elecard for PAL DVDs and 1920x1080i 60Hz .TS files.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Simple question about when people post their settings as 'output colorspace - YV12........

How do you set this up... I know that there is a menu option in the configurations for output colorspace. Mine has a bunch of different options (of which YV12 is one..) and many are checked. Does the above mean that I am supposed to uncheck all of them except YV12?

What does this do?

thanks,

novice ffdshow freaky fish man...

Yes, uncheck all but YV12.

That means that you only want to output in YV12.

Also, in order to do any level adjustments, resizes, etc., in YV12 (rather than YUY2), which has more bit depth and therefore better, you can put a filter out front, like Unsharp Mask at Strength 1, to convert the YUY2 signal to YV12.

cyberbri -

1. What do you mean by "putting a filter out front to convert the YUY2 signal to YV12? Does "out front" mean before? What filter generates the YUY2?

2. I don't understand your comment about YV12 having more depth than YUY2. According to fourcc.org, YV12 has only 12 bits per pixel, and chroma is sampled half as often vertically as YUY2, which has 16 bits per pixel.

You want to do the conversion to YV12 by using a filter prior to resize, or it's going to kill your machine. So put a dummy filter first in the FFDShow chain like the Unsharp Mask turned on very very minimally. This forces the colorspace conversion prior to the other filters that you actually want applied.

Exactly, madpoet.

With the version I have now, if I don't have anything before resize, the screen turns green. It resizes in YV12 and needs that input into it in order to work.

Here's a long, technical document on the subject, more than I need to know anyway:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwmt/html/yuvformats.asp


And this site may be what you read:
http://www.tekweb.dk/dfdv/fccyuv.php



I dunno... If you can see a difference, pick the one that looks best. :)

I'm really struggling here, novice ffdshow user. I've set up using the recommendations in this thread but whenever I try to use re-size, whether it's 1.2x or 2x or whatever I smash into the 100% CPU in the OSD. Jerky, slow playback. Using WinDVD codec, Zoom player.

I'm guessing my system should at least be adequate:

ASUS N7N8x-E Deluxe
Athlon 3200xp
PNY 5800GT Nvidia graphics card
1 gig PC3200 dual channel DDR memory

I must have missed some key config issue but I sure can't find it. Any help would be appreciated.

Griff

Listen to what Madpoet says about 3 posts back, that is likely your problem.

Look at page 150 of this thread. The answer is there.

Thanks nightfly and cybril, It's funny how you can read, re-read, apply and re-apply and still not get it. I finally got it! Was just trying to do things the wrong way around.

Thanks!

Another dumb question I cannot find an answer for. Many in this thread and others refer to "lanczos 4" and Vlad mentions "lanczos 8 or 10" when discussing resize settings. Are they referring to different "versions" of the algorithm or what?

Older versions have Lanczos "taps" that go from 0-10. But the SSE2 optimized version I think only has 2, 3 and 4 (4 being the best). It should be the slider bar to the right of the resize algorithm drop-down.

That would be "Parameter" I'm guessing.

Doh! I'll give it a whirl.

Thanks......yet again

You need to use the 0709 version, not the latest beta to have above Lancosz4.

Is the 0709 version optimized for resize? I'm at about 50% CPU for 2.79x DVD res right now, with a few other filters. But if I can get a slightly better picture, I might just go back to 0709 (I think I have the 0801 version).

It's not as optimized, but then again the optimizations he was doing was for Lancosz4 only anyway. If you plan on using anything higher, it will seriously put your CPU through the paces.

Has anyone tried the 20041012 Alpha version of FFDShow yet? There is an SSE2 optimized version as well. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the fast option is available for Blue and NR. I tried it with HQ checked and unchecked but could no longer run after resizing. Doh! Any other experiences?

Originally posted by Owen
Kram,

This subject has been done to death.

Sonic has NEVER been any good in software mode. (with FFDShow)

Care to humor us with specifics? :cool:

Reasearch... it has been discussed (in this thread even) ad nauseum.

I've read a lot of views but no pictures. There needs to be a comparison of all the filters (with and without ffdshow's claws). Enough opinions. Let's see the beef. :D

Originally posted by Kram Sacul
I've read a lot of views but no pictures. There needs to be a comparison of all the filters (with and without ffdshow's claws). Enough opinions. Let's see the beef. :D

See here (http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_5) for starters.

____
Axel

I am ussing ffdshow with zp using the video codec from tt2. I keep my desktop at 856X480 but would like to play my dvds at 1776X1000. Will ffdshow using resize do this? I have tried but I still have the 856X480. I can change the resolution of my desktop and then that will change the resolution on zp. I guess I am missing something.

Thanks,
Chad

Your desktop resolution is what the video card sends to your display. You can resize to above that, and your video card will resize that back down to the desktop resolution. For example, my desktop resolution is 1280x720, the native resolution of my DLP, and I resize to 2.79x DVD resolution (I think, which is about 2000x1338).

Hmm, I am still confused on this. Why would i want to resize a dvd to a higher resolution only to have my video card change it back to my desktop resolution. I understand what some of the filters do, but still do not understand why you would use resize.

Thanks,
Chad

Hi Chad,

think the object is to make the area bigger for sharpening etc. then it gets reduced back to normal screen res

Steve

Originally posted by Kram Sacul
Care to humor us with specifics? :cool:

Kram,

If you don’t believe me, or Madpoet, do your own comparison by down loading the trial version of WinDVD6 and compare the decoder with Sonic using FFDSHow with both.
If you can’t see the difference between them, then there is no point in discussing this any further here.

Just use what suits you and be happy.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

I think with this thread at 152 pages its usefulness may be diminishing but I will try my question here first.

Last night I thought I had finally entered HTPC nirvana with the following setup:

CPU Barton 3000+ @ 2.16 GHz
1G RAM @ 333MHz FSB
nVidia 5700 Ultra with Dual DVI
DVI to Marantz VP12S3

Zoom Player 4.03
nVidia 3+ Codec that came with TheaterTek 2.0
nVidia VPP
YV12 to FFDShow (7/25/04 version)
FFDShow Resize to 1440 X 960 Lanczos Parameter 4 Luma sharp 0.6
Output color space YV12 to 1280 X 720 desktop Overlay

I watched a sections of several DVDs and was quite happy until I started watching “Finding Nemo.” In the pre-title scene where you see Nemo as an egg I was shocked by how bad the chroma was. It looked like a 3 year olds coloring book with chroma only having a loose relationship with the luma. I was so close but had to fix this last issue.

After a great deal of testing I found a setup that seemed to have near perfect Chroma:

Zoom Player 4.03
nVidia 3+ Codec that came with TheaterTek 2.0
YUY2 to FFDShow (7/25/04 version)
FFDShow Resize to 1440 X 960 Lanczos Parameter 4 Luma sharp 0.6
Output color space YUY2 to 1280 X 720 desktop Overlay

The problem was that I seemed to lose something in the Luma detail on some DVDs without nVidia VPP and the Processor is nearly pegged on 24P and can’t deal with Video rates.

There are some things that I found out while doing the testing.

nVidia codec outputs YUY2 only
nVidia VPP outputs YV12 only

Both the Sonic and WinDVD codecs could not match nVidia in YUY2 but looked the same in YV12.

If I added the unsharp mask with a strength of 1 to the above setup before resize it would have the bad chroma.

It appears to me that my problem is with YV12 color space and not with VPP as some other threads would indicate.

After all that I can finally get to my question to all the FFDShow wizards out there. I see a lot of setup in the sticky thread that are doing the resize in YV12. Did you find a way to get good chroma upsampling or are you just living with it? It the 7/25/04 version of FFDShow a lemon and that is why I have bad chroma? Is the only way to preserve the quality of the chroma decode from the nVidia codecs to keep the color space YUY2 and avoid using any filters that convert to YV12 for processing?

Help I am almost there.

[i]
There are some things that I found out while doing the testing.

nVidia codec outputs YUY2 only
nVidia VPP outputs YV12 only[/B] Now that is interesting. Maybe that is why I kept crashing when I tried to use FFDShow and TT2. I have my FFDShow set up for YV12 only.

imf4 Now that is interesting. Maybe that is why I kept crashing when I tried to use FFDShow and TT2. I have my FFDShow set up for YV12 only.

TheaterTek 2 seems to deal with filter graph errors by crshing. If you use Zoom the ony connection you can make is YUY2.

If you have the NVPP in the chain first (and I do recommend it) then it does the colorspace conversion.

madpoet
If you have the NVPP in the chain first (and I do recommend it) then it does the colorspace conversion.

My problem is that once I drop from YUY2 to YV12 the choma Accuracy of the nVidia codec is lost.

Unfortunately (or I guess fortunately) I don't have the same Chroma abnormalities you see in my setup.

Madpoet,

What version of FFDShow are you using? If it is a SSE2 what version that will work on an AMD would you recommend?

The one thing I did not try was to change video drivers and FFDShow versions. I think I will need to look at that over the weekend. If I can’t resolve it I will try to get some screen captures.

I use the 0704 SSE2 version from Andy. I have no idea what's even out there anymore for non-SSE2 folks to be honest.

I have had no luck with different versions of FFDShow all have the degradation of chroma quality in YU12 as apposed to YUY2. The newest version of FFDShow in both the regular version and the SSE would peg the processor and drop frames when scaling to 1280X720 in YUY2 where the 20030725 version is at about 65%.

I have included 3 BMP of Finding Nemo. I have scaled the original captures 3X using nearest neighbor.

The reference is “NVidia YUY2 FFDShow Scale.bmp” This is the output of the nVidia 4.0 codecs in YUY2 scaled with FFDShow.

The samples of the chroma problem are “nVidia VPP YV12 FFDShow.bmp” and “nVidia YUY12 FFDShow Unsharp 1 YU12 Scale.bmp”.

They both show a similar problem with chroma but the conversion to YV12 is being done in different places.

In “nVidia VPP YV12 FFDShow.bmp” the conversion is being done in nVidias VPP.
In “nVidia YUY12 FFDShow Unsharp 1 YU12 Scale.bmp” the conversion is being done by the Unsharp mask Sharpening Filter.

It is had to see in these small unmoving samples but there is also noticeable horizontal banding in the chroma as well.

I have a similar problem with color using the two leaked NVDVD 4.0 decoder versions, except I have not found any work around for it.
The decoder works fine in DXVA mode, but whenever software mode is used, I get color banding problems.
The two NVDVD 3.0 versions versions that I have tested also have the same problem, with or without the VPP.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

I just cannot understand how the people raving about nvdvd 4.x and the vpp cannot see these issues. I have tried on not only my box but two of my mates and whenever the vpp is added to the mix the chroma messes up (but the deinterlacing is great).

Guys, I wish I saw it but I don't. Is there a common theme among the people who do? Do you all use the same video card or something?

How does Elecard 2510 compare in pq to the new Nvidia codecs that come with TT 2.0 when you use them in ZP?

I would rank the Elecard codecs behind the NV4 codecs.

Hey madpoet,

I have the color problem in software mode with the pre release builds of NVDVD 4.0, but now multiple people have reported the same problem with the TT2.0 version so there is definitely something going on.

While this serious color problem remains, Elecard walks all over the NVDVD 4.0 decoder.
Absolutely no contest.

If someone has a solution to this problem, I’m all ears.

It is hard to understand how the video card can have any affect in software mode.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen, to be clear... you have an ATI card, right? I don't recall people reporting it who have NVidia cards (software mode or not). I freely admit that I haven't paid a ton of attention however, since I don't seem to have it myself. Also you use primarily PAL if I'm not mistaken, and for NTSC I don't think Elecard is quite as strong.

I have the problem on an nVidia 5700. I am also using AMD.

The screen grabs were done through FFDShows Grab filter which I think comes before overlay.

I am going to see toady if I can see the same issue on an Intel system. I have seen some chatter about an “AMD bug” with the nVidia codecs so well will see.

Thanks Eric, I'm just trying to get some concise data on who sees it and who doesn't. I certainly DID see it with the older NVidia 2.55 codecs, but that was also a lot of hardware ago.

-MP

What version of Elecard?

jd

I was using 2510 since it didn't have the chroma bug

I tried FFDshow with my friends HTPC and found that the image was not better than just using Theater Tek 1 DVXA, set.
Tried resize 1440x960 with no other filters. latest FFDshow non-sse2 Was not sharper or more detailed. Had some studdering but I ignored that issue in my evaluation.
I switched back to TT1 without FFDshow. Owen was right about this one :)

Um... what? That made absolutely no sense.

Originally posted by stylinlp
I tried FFDshow with my friends HTPC and found that the image was not better than just using Theater Tek 1, DVXA, latest FFDshow non-sse2.
Tried resize 1440x960 with no other filters.

Just to be clear, DXVA is bypassed in TT1 when you select ffdshow, even though the box is checked.

Originally posted by ReplayEric

I have included 3 BMP of Finding Nemo. I have scaled the original captures 3X using nearest neighbor.
...

It is had to see in these small unmoving samples but there is also noticeable horizontal banding in the chroma as well.

ReplayEric,

I'm sure this has been answered somewhere else but I've never been able to find it, but how did you take the screen captures of the same frame?

Ive been using FFDshow and TT1 for almost 2 years now. Had a AMD1800 then AMD2200 then a AMD2600 Barton w/ 512megs ram. Raden 9600 card with each. Last night I just tried the latest non-sse2 with the AMD2600 and besides the stuttering at Resize 1440x960 Lumi 1.0, It definately did not look better than just using TT1 in DVXA mode. I've allways seen this and lately Owen has been stating this. Now I beleive him. FFDshow isn't worth using with Overlay.

First, a quick thanks to all and particularyl Vald, MadPoet and Cyberbil for the knowledge and experience posted here, saved me countless hours not to mention Tylenol!

I've just completed my first dvd to HD archive. All went well but when I play back from the HD using ZP/FFDshow I get a thick vertical green bar on the right side of the display.

I tried removing the various ffdshow filters one by one, no effect but if I take ffdshow out completely the green bar goes away. The file plays okay in WinDVD as well.

Using the latest non-sse version ffdshow.

I don't think that's exactly what Owen has been saying... is it Owen?

Originally posted by Muddlin'Thru
First, a quick thanks to all and particularyl Vald, MadPoet and Cyberbil for the knowledge and experience posted here, saved me countless hours not to mention Tylenol!

I've just completed my first dvd to HD archive. All went well but when I play back from the HD using ZP/FFDshow I get a thick vertical green bar on the right side of the display.

I tried removing the various ffdshow filters one by one, no effect but if I take ffdshow out completely the green bar goes away. The file plays okay in WinDVD as well.

Using the latest non-sse version ffdshow.

I've seen this too, on 4:3 material (previews on DVDs). IN ZP, I switch AR from Derived to the top one (widescreen?) and it goes away). But I haven't seen it on any 16:9 material.

"I've seen this too, on 4:3 material (previews on DVDs). IN ZP, I switch AR from Derived to the top one (widescreen?) and it goes away). But I haven't seen it on any 16:9 material."

Hmmm, just tried all 7 iterations of AR, still have the green bar. Thanks for the suggestion though Cyberbri.

Rahul,

The screen captures are not of the same frame but are close. I used Marlin’s eye blink as a key for the capture. Also the cropping is not same.

The discussion on the Theater Tek thread is starting to cover this as well.

Can someone post the URL for the October FFDShow release ? Is this version SSE ?

Originally posted by thekochs
Can someone post the URL for the October FFDShow release ? Is this version SSE ?

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=53761&package_id=59355

Actually it has all three versions. SSE2, SSE, and none of the above. I haven't tried it yet though.

Originally posted by lel4866
cyberbri -

1. What do you mean by "putting a filter out front to convert the YUY2 signal to YV12? Does "out front" mean before? What filter generates the YUY2?

2. I don't understand your comment about YV12 having more depth than YUY2. According to fourcc.org, YV12 has only 12 bits per pixel, and chroma is sampled half as often vertically as YUY2, which has 16 bits per pixel.

I don't know what it means as far as PQ goes, and it's probably best to judge by eye, but... I was messing around with ReClock last night (still getting skipped frames every once in a while), and noticed it includes the colorspace info -> YV12 12 Bits or YUY2 16 bits.
If resize is working in YV12, I don't know if it would hurt (CPU, PQ, etc.) to put it back into YUY2, but I tried changing to YUY2 just for kicks. I didn't see any obvious differences (was using a few scenes from Pitch Black, which I had just finished watching).

Originally posted by madpoet
I don't think that's exactly what Owen has been saying... is it Owen?

What I said about the Sonic decoder was that it does not work well in software mode.
From memory, the main problem was excessive noise, very noticeable in shadow areas.
This does not occur in DXVA mode.
Because of this, almost any other decoder works better with FFDShow.

If you do use the Sonic decoder with FFDShow, you will still be able to get some advantage with sharpening etc, but you will have to put up with the added noise.


Owen

Ah, right. That I agree with. Perhaps I just wasn't understanding stylinp's ramble ;)

In case people aren't following the thread, NVidia posted a patch for teh NVPP bug:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4534246#post4534246

Does the new sse (not sse2) run faster than the mmx version that Andy released a while ago? My Mobile AXP system runs the mmx version very well, but if there are benefits to the new one, I will try them.

I've got a simple question. I cant for the life of me figure out how to enforce a specific order of the enabled filters. Where is this defined?

Thanks,

Andy K.

Originally posted by mpgxsvcd
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=53761&package_id=59355

Actually it has all three versions. SSE2, SSE, and none of the above. I haven't tried it yet though.

Are A64s better off using the SSE or SSE2 version? They do support SSE2, but IIRC their implementation was sub-optimal, or at least not as good as intel's one, perhaps due to clock speed issues. Certain "SSE2 optimized" versions of Mozilla Firefox were actually tested on the A64 to be slower than "SSE optimized" versions AFAIK, so I'm wondering if the same case applies to ffdshow.

Originally posted by kromkamp
I've got a simple question. I cant for the life of me figure out how to enforce a specific order of the enabled filters. Where is this defined?

Thanks,

Andy K.

The order they are listed on the left is the order they will be applied. There are little arrows by each one you can use to adjust a specific filter up/down.

Here is little tip for FFDShow users.

Get hold of the free Dscaler5 Mpeg decoder and test it out.

Best damn picture I have ever seen.

Also works great for HD .TS files and can output YV12 directly.

NVDVD 4.0 could well be obsolete.

It’s been out for a while and I never got around to testing it till today.
Man, I did not know what I was missing.

Like Elecard, it does not do decrypting, so you will need AnyDVD or similar.

You will also need a new version of Zoom Player to be able to see the Dscaler decoder in the DVD decoder selection box.
Or you can update your old Zoom Player by downloading the latest Zoom Player beta and copying the filtergraph folders over your old ones.

Have fun,


Owen

Have the FFDShow issues been worked out? I tried it before and had issues. How is the CPU load compared to the NVidia codecs?

Owen,

i have the latest zoomplayer with descaler and ffdshow working for DVD's. But i am still unable to play .ts files. How did you setup zoom to do that?

i try to open them and it acts like its playing something but no audio video and the progress bar acts oddly.. but no error message.

Originally posted by eruji
Owen,

i have the latest zoomplayer with descaler and ffdshow working for DVD's. But i am still unable to play .ts files. How did you setup zoom to do that?

i try to open them and it acts like its playing something but no audio video and the progress bar acts oddly.. but no error message.

Are you using the latest AC3 filter with SPDIF out checked? I had the same results as you when i used the RC5 AC3, if not then who knows?

Another Vote for the Dscaler filter as i have 999 hours on my PJ and was finally able to watch a movie without thinking " I could make this look better"

Cheers

Warren

owen........ where did you get the NVDVD 4.0 codec....... purchased the player perhaps?

So its noticably better than Elecard 2510?

Does it allow for menu "highlights"? Ie Elecard 2510 does not.

I agree with what is being said about the Descaler filter. It is excellent. Personally , I still think NV4.0 +VPP is a bit better but what is really great about this filters is great quality with really low cpu utilization. I am using it with Zoom Player to play my high definition files. I can easily do FFDshow post processing with my TS files along with VMR9! HD never looked better!

Owen,

Are you referring to DScaler5003 (alpha)? - just popped him on a cd to test out this weekend.. sounds promising.

Cheers,
Bitey

yeah im interested too...... not been keeping up with this thread toooo much, seems like a new DScaler version with "new" filter for FFD or something? (ahh yeah i should read back, but im lazy)

After all the talk about FDDShow, I decided to try it out, so I've downloaded the latest version and I'm trying it out with ZP 4.03 and WinDVD 4 filters. (Yes, I know, old. But, it is the best I have right now.)

I have to say I'm disappointed. Resizing seems to freeze the video after a while. By itself, it freezes immediatly. The only way I can get it to work without freezing is to also activate Blur and NR as well. Still, it will freeze on occasion. Unless someone has answers, it seems rather unusable to me.

Jason

TheLongshot,

Try ZP 4.02 - I had similar issues with ZP 4.03. If that doesnt work - more information we need :)

Cheers,
Bitey

Originally posted by TheLongshot
After all the talk about FDDShow, I decided to try it out, so I've downloaded the latest version and I'm trying it out with ZP 4.03 and WinDVD 4 filters. (Yes, I know, old. But, it is the best I have right now.)

I have to say I'm disappointed. Resizing seems to freeze the video after a while. By itself, it freezes immediatly. The only way I can get it to work without freezing is to also activate Blur and NR as well. Still, it will freeze on occasion. Unless someone has answers, it seems rather unusable to me.

Jason

You can get WinDVD 6 filters by downloading the trial of the WinDVD 6 software and installing it - just don't open the actual program after the trial period ends.

But the cause of the freezing problem is with the WinDVD codec. You'll have to do this in order to fix it:

In ZP DVD settings, where FFDSHOW is selected, add "DMO_V Abstract" to the Additional Fitlers, and move it up to before ffdshow. Then, press START -> RUN -> type "regedit". Find:
HKEY_CURRENT_USER -> Software -> Intervideo -> Pasteurization -> to right, right-click Intensity and change (Modify) the Value to 0. This will cancel out the effect of the filter. This should get it working without freezing.

I know, because I had the same problem, and was about to give up using my HTPC to watch DVDs.

Try this thread to see what kinds of settings people are using with what displays:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447500
That should get you started.

Originally posted by Owen
Here is little tip for FFDShow users.

Get hold of the free Dscaler5 Mpeg decoder and test it out.

Best damn picture I have ever seen.



Owen,

Can you give us any help on Locating the filter?

Originally posted by Spoonfed
owen........ where did you get the NVDVD 4.0 codec....... purchased the player perhaps?

So its noticably better than Elecard 2510?

Does it allow for menu "highlights"? Ie Elecard 2510 does not.

nVidia now sells NVDVD 4.0 codecs for only $20 on their site :)

Best damn picture I have ever seen.

Better read the whole thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=460075

The first post contains the link.

Not everybody agrees with Owen's assessment, particularly if you have a large FP setup. But it is promising to see John working on this as I know from using DScaler that he will try to optimize image quality.

Vern

Yep... it's a nice filter, but I think NVidia tops it still.

Originally posted by Goi
Are A64s better off using the SSE or SSE2 version? They do support SSE2, but IIRC their implementation was sub-optimal, or at least not as good as intel's one, perhaps due to clock speed issues. Certain "SSE2 optimized" versions of Mozilla Firefox were actually tested on the A64 to be slower than "SSE optimized" versions AFAIK, so I'm wondering if the same case applies to ffdshow.

I'm a newbie to using Ffdshow, but after playing with it for a couple of days, I've come to some interesting conclusions. Some of which may be obvious to many of you, but weren't to me.

How dramatic a change Ffdshow makes on your system is very dependent on your video card. As unintuitive as it sounds, the worse your video card, the bigger the difference Ffdshow will make. The better your video card, the less difference Ffdshow will make.

The Windvd6 codec (and I would think all MPEG2 codecs) w/o Ffdshow pumps 720x540 frames to your video card regardless of your desktop resolution; Doing a frame capture always results in a 720x540 image from ZP. Your video card's hardware and/or driver (?) must scale the overlay image to the proper resolution. On the other hand, if you use Ffdshow and resize the image to say 1440x940 (even if your desktop resolution is 1024x768, for example), frame captures will be 1440x940. This is important to note. If you are comparing frame captures with and w/o Ffdshow, the results will look dramatic! In reality, the difference will not be near as great, since the 720x540 frame will be scaled up and the 1440x940 frame will be scaled down (assuming your desktop resolution is less) by your video card to your desktop resolution.

I was wondering why my results did not seem nearly as dramatic as the examples of the HTPC News site. Perhaps, this explains it (?). Without taking shots from a camera, I don't see how you could get images you can accurately compare.

At any rate, I guess my Radeon 9700 Pro does a pretty good job of scaling DVDs to my desktop resolution of 1368x768. With the Ffdshow settings I've used, the differences are subtle (Unsharp mask 1, Resize to 1440x940, Lanczos(?) 4, Luma sharpen .20, Output YUV12). I think that I still prefer the result with Ffdshow. It does result in a slightly sharper image (but adds slight ringing as well). I just wanted to point out to others that they may not get nearly as dramatic a results as I seen depicted in HTPC News.

I'm still scratching my head about why you should use Ffdshow to resize to a resolution greater than your desktop resolution... Can anyone enlighten me on this one?

Not really. There have been 3 or 4 threads arguing the value over the last week or two. In the end it is entirely your choice. I like it. Others don't.

Hi,
I installed the latest ffdshow build with SSE instructions and was messing around with it. While I was setting it up, I noticed on my OSD it reported my Decoder as "Uncompressed." Should it be doing that? I thought ffdshow was used in conjunction with some other video decoder. I'm using SageTV 2 and my setup is in my sig. Thanks.

I am a newbie as well this is my system i just built 2 weeks ago:
AMD64 3500+ CPU
MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum Motherboard
1 gig Corsair ram
2 200 GB Sata HD's in Raid 0 configuration
ATI Radeon 9800Pro/256 DDR Video Card

I installed ffdwhow 20041012 and zoom player wmv pro yesterday. I am using the ati dvd player software that came with the card. Dont know anything about filters.
Using only the settings from HTPC news, i have gotten a good picture, about the same picture quality i have using windows media player. My biggest question is? What am i missing. I must have missed something somewhere. I expected this to be much better than windows media player or at least noticeable. Again i am a newbie and really dont understand a lot. Ive tried to use the settings that others have posted, however i dont seem to have them. For instance Lanzcos4 and YUV12? Ive looked for those and havent found them so that i could tweak.
Another thing. I have a 61inch Samsung DLP HNL617W and the native resolution is 720p. I dont understand a thing about the resize in ffdshow but what should i put in there for best resoltion for my tv? I was thinking 1280x720 but i dont see anyone putting that in their setups.

Originally posted by minime9us
I am a newbie as well this is my system i just built 2 weeks ago:
AMD64 3500+ CPU
MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum Motherboard
1 gig Corsair ram
2 200 GB Sata HD's in Raid 0 configuration
ATI Radeon 9800Pro/256 DDR Video Card

I installed ffdwhow 20041012 and zoom player wmv pro yesterday. I am using the ati dvd player software that came with the card. Dont know anything about filters.
Using only the settings from HTPC news, i have gotten a good picture, about the same picture quality i have using windows media player. My biggest question is? What am i missing. I must have missed something somewhere. I expected this to be much better than windows media player or at least noticeable. Again i am a newbie and really dont understand a lot. Ive tried to use the settings that others have posted, however i dont seem to have them. For instance Lanzcos4 and YUV12? Ive looked for those and havent found them so that i could tweak.
Another thing. I have a 61inch Samsung DLP HNL617W and the native resolution is 720p. I dont understand a thing about the resize in ffdshow but what should i put in there for best resoltion for my tv? I was thinking 1280x720 but i dont see anyone putting that in their setups.

First of all, the "4" in Lanscoz 4 refers to the tap, or the slider setting, next to Lanscoz in the Resize -> Settings.

And the YUY2 and YV12 are in the Output section at the very bottom. Uncheck everything except the one you want to use. Resize takes place in YV12, so keeping it at YV12 will prevent another conversion from needing to take place. And you may find that turning a filter on before resize will force the conversion for better speed (such as Unsharp Mask strength 1) - if you turn everything off, you may get a green screen, or video with a lot of skips.

The guide on HTPC News is rather old, in that ffdshow has been updated a lot since then.

Basically, your desktop output resolution should be that of your TV, so 1280x720 for you. You can resize to whatever you want, and your video card will rescale that to 1280x720. Basically you should resize as high as possible, although there are other factors that affect PQ as well, like the resiz method and tap (Bicubic, Lancsoz, etc., tap of Lancsoz 4 versus 8, etc.). You might try a resize at 2x DVD resolution, Lancsoz 4 (or 8 if you have the speed), with .6 or .8 Luma Sharpen

What are you using for audio and video codecs? The ATI stuff?

If you don't use subtitles, you may want to try the free Dscaler 5 for audio and video. I use it for audio, but am waiting for an updated video that doesn't momentarily freeze after every subtitle. So I'm using the WinDVD 6 video codec, dl'ed for free with the trial version of the WinDVD 6 player.

One thing I noticed on my setup (HLN) is that when using Overlay, I have to change my Levels -> Output to 16-235 to get correct blacks/whites. But when I tried switching to VMR9 (need AnyDVD or any copy-protection stripper software), I had to switch it to Levels -> Input -> 16-235 to get it right. Just be aware of that - if you don't have any special calibration DVDs, try Monsters Inc or any Disney DVD with THX Optimization to get a general idea if you need to adjust Levels or not.


Anyway, I'm sure you have a lot of questions. I'd suggest first checking out the http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447500 -> Official FFDSHOW Settings thread to see settings what other people are using (with same or similar TVs, codecs, etc.). I just updated mine on the second page with a bunch of new changes as well.


Hope that helps.

Originally posted by flashbacck
Hi,
I installed the latest ffdshow build with SSE instructions and was messing around with it. While I was setting it up, I noticed on my OSD it reported my Decoder as "Uncompressed." Should it be doing that? I thought ffdshow was used in conjunction with some other video decoder. I'm using SageTV 2 and my setup is in my sig. Thanks.

Uncompressed means that the video is raw, uncompressed video, not mpg or avi or whatever.

Originally posted by cyberbri
Uncompressed means that the video is raw, uncompressed video, not mpg or avi or whatever.

This is a bit misleading, as mpeg2 is also a type of compression, just as mpeg, xvid, etc.

Yes, but unless you're using ffdshow to actually decode the video (unlikely) then it is fed into ffdshow as raw, uncompressed video frames. WinDVD, NVDVD or whatever you have set up as a codec for video is doing the decompression.

Originally posted by pcgeek
Yes, but unless you're using ffdshow to actually decode the video (unlikely) then it is fed into ffdshow as raw, uncompressed video frames. WinDVD, NVDVD or whatever you have set up as a codec for video is doing the decompression.

How do you decompress uncompressed data?
The video data on a DVD is highly compressed using mpeg2, there is no way around that.
Just tried to play a SVCD in ZP w/ffdshow, and ffdshow will say that it's being fed uncompressed data then as well.

You're not using FFDSHOW to decode the data. That's what the video codec is for. Whatever video codec you use decodes the compressed data into "raw" video for ffdshow to do its work.

Ah, I thought the "decoder:" was suppose to be telling me what codec was being used. how do I know which codec ffdshow is using? And is there a way to manually change it?

ffdshow isn't using anything. FFDSHOW should be set as an extra filter inside Zoom Player, assuming you are using Zoom Player.

This has a basic setup guide, with how to set up codecs, turn on ffdshow, etc.:
http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1

Originally posted by Goi
Are A64s better off using the SSE or SSE2 version? They do support SSE2, but IIRC their implementation was sub-optimal, or at least not as good as intel's one, perhaps due to clock speed issues. Certain "SSE2 optimized" versions of Mozilla Firefox were actually tested on the A64 to be slower than "SSE optimized" versions AFAIK, so I'm wondering if the same case applies to ffdshow.

Is there any benefit with the new Dscaler5 codecs, for example, to ensure Raw Video is = YV12 only, as well as having the Output = YV12 only?

If you enable YV12 output in the Dscaler 5 codec, you don't have to do a conversion to YV12 with ffdshow, which may help with CPU usage. Leaving it as YV12 for output from ffdshow means there is no second conversion back.

However, which is best is debatable. I'm not sure of the technical aspects, but I know YUY2 is 16 bits, and YV12 is 12 bits. So doing any levels conversion (to combat crush, like I do on mine) may be better off in YUY2 with 16-bit color. Again, I'm not 100% sure about this, which is better and whatnot.

So I am having some interesting trouble with FFDShow. I'm using TT2.02 with the FFDShow 20041012. I am doing the usual B&N with resize to 1920x1080.

For whatever reason the picture does not fill my screen. It's squeezed in leaving about 2 or 3 inches on either side of the screen black.

System: 3200+ w/ 1 gig PC3200 on a A7N8X
9700 Pro out to a 30" Loewe via VGA @ 1920x1080i

I was using the 08-01 version of ffdshow, but wanted to try a version with a higher tap than 4 for Lancsoz. So I grabbed the newest 10-12 SSE2 version, and got it all set up. DVDs look great (as they did before). I just switched over the weekend, but I'm using Lancsoz 8 at 2x DVD resolution, where I was using Lancsoz 4 at 2.79x (2000x1338) DVD res, along with a few other filters.

But I also have a bunch of hi-def trailers that I watch using WMP (downloaded from the MS website). They all used to play fine. But once I installed 10-12 (and even when I tried uninstalling it), things are all screwy. The ffdshow Audio filter, which cannot be uninstalled, or skipped during the initial installation, loads into WMP automatically. Now, depending on the trailer, I have to go to WMP Tools -> Options -> DVD -> Advanced, and either set it to AC3, or check the 8-32-integer options.

If I don't, I either get music but no voice-over, or no audio at all.

Which means, every time I want to play one, I have to try playing it, and if the audio doesn't seem right, go into Options and switch.

Then, with a few AVI hi-def trailers, like for Shark Tale, they are treated as "raw video." It took me a while to figure out why it stuttered so bad (1 frame every 5 seconds or so), but the ffdshow video filters were taking effect because the AVI is "raw video," meaning that my resize and other filters were working on them.

I even tried uninstalling FFDSHOW altogether, and the problem was still there. Only then, in the Options -> DVD -> Advanced section, it brought up something else, and I wasn't able to play all of the hd trailers like normal.

So I've had to make 3 folders for hd trailers. 1 for AC3, one for non-AC3, and one for avi (with each file labeled AC3 or non-AC3).

I don't mind the AVI problem, because I can just turn off the filters. But I wish there was a way to get rid of the audio portion of ffdshow - too bad there isn't a 'raw video-only' DVD version, with just raw video filters and no other stuff. I even tried and was unsuccessful at uninstalling WMP 10, and trying to install a previous version of WMP won't work now.

I don't know if there's a fix, but those are my woes. If it helps anyone experiencing the same things, great. If anyone reads this and updates it so this isn't a problem in the future, that's great too.

FFDShows audio decoder is enabled by default in 10-12 SSE2 version and can be disabled in the audio configuration menu.
Look in Start / Ffdshow menu.

I encountered problems using VMR7 or VMR9 with HD .ts files using the 10-12 SSE2 version. And since Lanczos resize with taps greater then 4 produce ringing, I saw no reason to continue using it, and went back to using Andys “preview build” so that I can use Denoise3d (Fast) on .ts files.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

And which of the versions would be "Andy's??"

http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/
I guess all of these, the 'preview' one is what most of people use, some1 correct me if I'm wrong

Im sort of trying to get my head around the PC vs Video "levels" (ie black/white ends).

Is it true that PC's always crush the top and bottom of the scale?

I use overlay on a Radeon 9600 pro to DLP projector, with 2x PAL 1440 x 1152 10tap Lanoz resize and luma sharpen (+ a "touch" of gradual denoise).

My system (athlon 2400+) seem to get tearing with this setup on VMR9 so i use overlay.

Owen,
u suggest bumping up the brightness and pulling back contrast...... though i 'think" this seems to raise "full black" above what "full black" is on the projector, which doesn't seem correct?

I run a gamma bump of 1.1 in overlay settings which helps as it levels full black as full black (ie does not raise the black floor like bumping the brightness).

For me, when using Overlay I have to change Levels -> Output to 16-235. With the graph turned on, I can see that there is nothing below 16 or above 235.

When I was experimenting with VMR, I had to do the opposite, and put Output at 0-255, and change Input to 16 and 235.

Hasn't it been said that you don't need to use levels? Just use the overlay sliders and adjust your viewing device.

yes owen has recommended this.

bumping up output to 16 seems to raise the black floor,

im not sure how to really 'fix' it with the contrast/brightness setting as my experience in bumping brightness past default usualy also raises the black floor

Originally posted by Kram Sacul
Hasn't it been said that you don't need to use levels? Just use the overlay sliders and adjust your viewing device.

Using levels fixes the problem perfectly with my video card. When I use Overlay and watch the histogram in Levels, I can see a line at 16, with barely anything below it, with nothing over the 235 level in bright scenes.

Using overlay sliders or the video card display properties (nVidia GeForce 5200 Ultra) just makes it worse, on my setup at least.

Originally posted by ry317
I'm using TT2.02 with the FFDShow 20041012. I am doing the usual B&N with resize to 1920x1080.

For whatever reason the picture does not fill my screen. It's squeezed in leaving about 2 or 3 inches on either side of the screen black.

I have the same software (TT2.02, ffdshow 20041012), same problem. If I turn off resize (Lanczos 4 1280x720) the problem goes away. I will experiment with different settings and report back. Pls let me know if you've found a better solution than turning off resize.

Originally posted by 3no
I have the same software (TT2.02, ffdshow 20041012), same problem. If I turn off resize (Lanczos 4 1280x720) the problem goes away. I will experiment with different settings and report back. Pls let me know if you've found a better solution than turning off resize. Just make sure you checked "No Aspect Ratio Detection" in the Resize screen. :cool:

Are A64s better off using the SSE or SSE2 version? They do support SSE2, but IIRC their implementation was sub-optimal, or at least not as good as intel's one, perhaps due to clock speed issues. Certain "SSE2 optimized" versions of Mozilla Firefox were actually tested on the A64 to be slower than "SSE optimized" versions AFAIK, so I'm wondering if the same case applies to ffdshow.

Originally posted by Carey P
Just make sure you checked "No Aspect Ratio Detection" in the Resize screen. :cool:
Worked. Thanks!

Does anyone know how to get ffdshow to work with windvd6? I'm a complete newbie with ffdshow and so far I have not seen this question been asked. Could someone point me in the right direction if it has been answered before?

Also, is there a big difference when using ffdshow with windvd6 (maybe give a small explanation of what the differences are) ?

you can't use ffdshow directly with windvd. You need to use something like zoom player to be able to use the windvd6 decoder with ffdshow. Depending on what your output device is there could be a huge improvement.

my output device will eventually be the panasonic ae700u projector using a 106" hccv screen but before I get it i'd like to learn how to use ffdshow, but am unsure if it is worth trying to figure out.

So could someone explain how to get ffdshow with zoomplayer and windvd6 to work?

Originally posted by aerospace0007
Does anyone know how to get ffdshow to work with windvd6? I'm a complete newbie with ffdshow and so far I have not seen this question been asked. Could someone point me in the right direction if it has been answered before?

Also, is there a big difference when using ffdshow with windvd6 (maybe give a small explanation of what the differences are) ?

I just looked thru pages 146-150 where they talked about how to make winDVD6 work with zoomplayer and ffdshow. You made to so a couple of things.

Some comments and questions about SSE, SSE2, and AMD.

First, I'm a little uncertain why SSE would be a factor, since as far as I can tell, SSE only applies to 32 bit floating point numbers. I can't see why most of ffdshow operations would want to deal with floating point, since inputs ae 8 bit integers. OTOH, MMX is good for 8/16 bit integers. That is, UNLESS 4 32 bit float operations in the XMM registers are as fast as 4 16 bit integer operations in the MMX registers. Are they?

SSE2 seems to have added a ton of integer instructions for use with the new XMM registers, so, in general, it would seem that SSE2 would be best for 8 bit integer operations (it can do 16 in parallel, since an XMM register is 128 bits long, right?).

As to whether the A64 has a good implementation of SSE2, maybe not as good as Intel, but I can't believe falling back to SSE would be any better, since AMD isn't exactly optimized for them, either, as I recall.

http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1

This has a tutorial for getting ZP running with ffdshow.

When using WinDVD there is the DMO_V Abstract filter fix you have to use as well.

Haven't read this thread for a while, and it's really too long so I'm gonna ask... has the bad gamme curve (in Picture Properties) been adressed and fixed yet ?

Moreover, is the "RGB Gamma" the same as the Gamma, only adjustable by color ?

Thx ;)

The whole "Picture Properties" control is seriously flawed! Not only the Gamma but also the usual Gain(Contrast)/Offset(Brightness) will cause serious banding, as well as larger adjustment on the Saturation.

Use either VMR9 or Overlay picture quality instead.

regards,

Li On

Can't set the gamma for VMR9 anywhere else, as I want to change it only in movies, not in the desktop (so no PStrip setting for me).
I don't see no banding using ffdshow's gamma, it's just that the curve is crappy :)

ZoomPlayer has Gamma setting for VMR9, I think.

regards,

Li On

Or you could use the gamma in Levels instead of Picture Properties, it works for me.

Li On, ZP says it's unsupported.

Mark, the one in Picture Properties works, it's just not very good.
How good is the one in Levels ?
Is there really a difference between the two ?

Thx ;)

i had a bit of a play with VMR9, Mark, what "improvements" should i be seeing or are they very suttle?

I had to pull but the brightness as it had the full black level "bumped" up (ie full black was not such).

Other than that did not seem a real improvement compared to overlay. I did have some tearing at the top of the screen, CPU touchin 90% so maybe would have to scale back FFD settings (which i think would be negative relative to the tiny gain that perhaps VMR9 does?)

If your setup is like mine, you shouldn't be looking at gamma or brightness/contrast. I found that with my setup, using Overlay, I have to change my Output on the Levels page to 16/235 (Input at 0/255). If I switch to VMR, it was the opposite, and Input had to be switched to 16/235 (Output at 0/255). I also turned on Luminance Only so it doesn't affect the color saturation.

When using Overaly, on the Levels page if I turn on the Histogram (and full spectrum) I can see that there is nothing below 16 (usually), or over 235.

I had a horrible time trying to get things to look "right" before I discovered this, because I was just using gamma, brightness, contrast, etc.


My "ultimate" test disc is Matrix Reloaded. I think it's about Chapter 4, where the ship is coming into the dock and there is the virtual scene with the people opening the gates. There should be lots of detail in the shadows as the ship comes through the tunnel, and the virtual scene should be white, but it shouldn't be so bright the detail on the clothes of the people is washed out - the clothes should appear grey and you should be able to see everything, with lots of detail in the virtual images they are manipulating on the virtual screen.

i'll check that scene cyber,

I have tried the "levels" and have found to keep blacks "full" (ie as black as my PJ can do) the brightness needs to be turn down in the overlay/ZP settings else the black floor is "bumped" up when the levels is set to 16 for the bottom end.

Though i can't say i have noticed an improvement vs my normal default colour/brightness settings and 1.1 gamma setting.

Though maybe this scene will show it up.

I don't get this...
A DVD contains values from 0 to 255, this has been prooved on this forum.
VMR9 outputs values from 0 to 255, this has also been prooved on this forum.

So why do you guys wanna crop all that ??

I "don't" just trying to get to what is the "best" way to output.

So if there truely is 0-255 "info" on MPEG2 movies etc, so perhaps this "talk" is made up by set top users annoyed at the PC superiority :) hehe

Originally posted by Mark_A_W
Or you could use the gamma in Levels instead of Picture Properties, it works for me.
From what I just tested, they are exactly the same.

Originally posted by BangoO
I don't get this...
A DVD contains values from 0 to 255, this has been prooved on this forum.
VMR9 outputs values from 0 to 255, this has also been prooved on this forum.

So why do you guys wanna crop all that ??

The way Overlay and VMR handle DVDs are different. Even DVD players handle them differently, which is why there are problems with crushing over DVI on one particular model, with crushing over component on others.

The picture doesn't look right, on my setup (DVD drive and video card) leaving the Levels the same.

In Overlay, if I turn on the histogram to see how much is coming off the DVD across the spectrum, the low end is cut off at 16, with only rarely a small amount of information coming out below that. And even in scenes with bright white, I have never seen anything come out above 235.

When I got AnyDVD and tried VMR (need AnyDVD to strip copy protection to use VMR), it was the opposite. To get the same picture (referenced from regular DVD player how much shadow detail I should be getting), I had to turn Levels Input to 16-235, rather than Output to 16-235. Not doing so, the picture is washed out. Unfortunately FFDSHOW's Levels - Histogram doesn't work with VMR. But I use Overlay anyway, so this isn't an issue for me.

I'm not sure how and where it's been proven on the forum that you need to change Levels to combat crushing, but it works on my setup better than changing any gamma, brightness or contrast setting, and I'm sticking with it.

I have calibrated my TV's (Samsung DLP) DVI input for my HTPC using http://www.displaycalibration.com/ and the Phillips Pattern Generator found here: http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ - and to get DVDs to look correct, I have to modify the Levels. Some people do it with gamma, but I don't because like you say, it raises the black level "floor."

If you don't need to on your setup, that's fine. I have a DLP, which is different than projectors or CRTs or plasmas, etc. But I'm not going to watch a movie that's too dark with no shadow detail, or too washed out.

The ffdshow histogram works fine for me with VMR. Just remember to but an infinitesimal amount of gamma correction in ffdshow's 'picture properties' and have 'picture properties' above 'levels'. The gamma adjusters in ffdshow are not coded correctly and should be avoided but a tiny adjustment is just fine. Use the gamma adjuster in PowerStrip, if you use it, instead since it does not change the white and or black reference levels. I have not tested the gamma adjusters in any of the players so I can't recommend them myself but some may be good.

Charlie

I have Unsharp Mask @ 1 above levels to do the conversion to YV12 before changing the Levels. If I didn't, the whole thing slows down (choppy) anyway for me.

Charles, sure you can use Pstrip, but then it changes the gamma of the desktop too, and this is not acceptable for me.

By the way, why is it that the image is a lot darker in YUY2 than in YV12 when using VMR9 (it's fine when I use the overlay) ?

Originally posted by cyberbri
I have Unsharp Mask @ 1 above levels to do the conversion to YV12 before changing the Levels. If I didn't, the whole thing slows down (choppy) anyway for me.

I thought Levels DID the YV12 conversion for resize?? :confused

Now that u'r saying u hav to hav a filter even before Levels to convert colorspace with the least amt of performance decrease??

Thanks :)

Is it possible to have ffdshow load a profile using the fps as a trigger?

I have my setup geared toward 24fps (85% cpu) but sometimes I load up a movie for my kids that is 30fps (CPU pins at 100%) and get all sorts of studdering. If ffdshow could notice the different frame rates and apply different setting such as a lower resize or no denoise (my kids arent videophiles YET!).

JD

Originally posted by N3W813
I thought Levels DID the YV12 conversion for resize?? :confused

Now that u'r saying u hav to hav a filter even before Levels to convert colorspace with the least amt of performance decrease??

Thanks :)

Levels does do the conversion with the 10-12 SSE2 version. But if I take out a filter before it, the screen doesn't go green/black or anything, but it takes a huge performance hit (turns to a slide-show).

I don't know why, but that's what happened when I tried it, thinking I could drop the Sharpen before Levels and just convert with Levels, or even change the Levels in YUY2 (16 bit) before it got converted to YV12 (12 bit). But with my configuration, I'm keeping Unsharp Mask @ 1.

Hope that makes sense...

Originally posted by pontiacgagt
Is it possible to have ffdshow load a profile using the fps as a trigger?
No it's not.
I asked Andy about this a few weeks/month ago, I never got an answer nor a fix :)

Originally posted by BangoO
Charles, sure you can use Pstrip, but then it changes the gamma of the desktop too, and this is not acceptable for me.
Ok I tested again tonight.
This gamma works exactly as I expected it to work.
Moreover, it changes the gamma on the desktop, but only on the primary monitor so it's just perfect :)

The one I'd really like is to load a profile based on current screen resolution. My display devices don't like the same sizes and I'd rather choose the device and let everything else cope than vice versa :)

BangoO,

Charles, sure you can use Pstrip, but then it changes the gamma of the desktop too, and this is not acceptable for me.From your last post I gather that this is no longer an issue?

By the way, why is it that the image is a lot darker in YUY2 than in YV12 when using VMR9 (it's fine when I use the overlay) ?I notice on my display that YUY2 looks a little darker if I forget to turn off the levels filter. I use levels 16 to 235 with YV12 out since I have a monitor and no levels filter if I output YUY2 since the YUY2 output filter converts the levels to 0 to 255.

Charlie

The levels Histogram works with Overlay or VMR renderers as it comes BEFORE the renderer and only displays what is coming into the Levels filter, not what is coming out of the renderer or the video card to the display.

FFDShows “Levels” and “Picture Properties” filters are inferior in quality to that provided by the adjustments on good video cards and should ONLY be used as a last resort to make adjustments that cannot be done by the video card or display.

VMR7 and 9 pass the full 0-255 RGB range and can therefor display below black and above white information.

The Overlay renderer clips or crushes RGB levels to 16-235 on Radeon and from memory, Nvidea cards as well, at default Overlay settings.
If you want to be able to display below black and above white using Overlay you need to decrease Overlay Contrast and increase Brightness a little and then recalibrate the black level on your display using the Brightness control.
From my memory, this is not as good as using VMR due to the lose of 36 level steps that cannot be recovered.

Gamma with Overlay, VMR7 and VMR9 all look quite different on my Radeon system and require different settings for each.

I have never been able to get a good result using Radeon overlay.
The lack of shadow detail (low Gamma), apparent lower color resolution and slight red/orange push combined with the sharpening applied by Radeon overlay make it a poor second to VMR IMHO.

The issue of weather we should be using RGB 0-255 or 16-235 for DVD playback has been hotly debated in other threads.
As far as I am concerned, I’ll take full range 0-255 every time.
I can get excellent results on my CRT RPTV using default VMR settings, 2.2 Gamma in Powerstrip and NO levels filter.

I have always found that I get best results by adjusting my display so that all video setting on the HTPC are as close to default as possible and well within there designed operating range.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Using a DVD player for shadow detail..... hmm i tried a sony and pioneer progressive models last night and even between DVD players there is a noticable difference.

The Fony seemed to have more but it seem to do such but increasing the overall black floor, did not seem as deep

The HTPC set using overlay and JUST 1.1 gamma bump seemed inbetween the two DVD players.

I was using U571 to test, the scenes in the sub are often dark etc.

I would really like to get the most shadow detail etc as possible, given use a front projector every little input tweak helps.

EDIT: Doh! Owen beat me, helpful thanks :)

I just cant seem to get auto aspect ratios to work with VMR7 properly, and VMR9 sees too much tearing on my setup (i don't want to go any lower than my 2 x Pal resize, and i would with VMR9 :( ).

Expanding a range of 16 to 235 (DVD disk/studio video range) to 0 to 255 (PC monitor range) will always result in a loss of 36 levels regardless of whether it is Overlay or VMR7/9. It is just the result of multiplying by 255/219 and then rounding off and can't be avoided.

Fortunately (for me) I can't see the lost levels even with close inspection of grey-scale ramp test patterns on my system so I usually just go with level 0 to level 255 PC monitor input range.

It is possible for some CRT monitors (mine included) to be adjusted to correctly display 16 to 235 studio video but non-video (Windows etc.) sources will frequently be overdriven to severe blooming. This is why I prefer to use 0 to 255 level input to my PC monitor style projector even though it can be setup to display studio video.

I use YUY2 output in ffdshow since it forces the levels to the 0 to 255 range that I prefer. That way I don't have to use levels at all. If I had a studio video display I would use YV12 out and still not have to use the levels control since it outputs levels 16 to 235 by design.

Charlie

So YV12 ONLY works 16-235? I run FFDShow YV12 output, so why would the "levels" on output be having an effect when this is "forced" anyway?
(Note am using the DScaler filter which inputs YV12 into FFDShow).

Is there much point in outputing YUV2 after it has been "forced" through YV12 anyway? YV12 is what i understand a DVD to have "native" if you will?

Say one is using overlay, it "gets" what its given from FFDShow, however the output of the Overlay mixer is RGB into the renderer, so either YV12 or YUV2 is converted. I would have though keeping YV12 from disc to render would have been best (given FFDShow works as such)?

Also i take it digital displays, ie DLP front pro would be 0-255 also feed PC?

Originally posted by Charles Black
BangoO,

From your last post I gather that this is no longer an issue?

I notice on my display that YUY2 looks a little darker if I forget to turn off the levels filter. I use levels 16 to 235 with YV12 out since I have a monitor and no levels filter if I output YUY2 since the YUY2 output filter converts the levels to 0 to 255.

Charlie
You are right, it is no longer an issue, I found the gamma I wanted, thx ;)

YUY2 looks darker on my system, and I don't use anything but a resize in ffdshow.
A friend of mine tested the same setup (plus we almost have the same PC, and we have the same projector), and he didn't see this brightness difference...

Then, if I use 16-235 as input and 0-255 as output, I can easily see that blacks and white a clipped, no matter what renderer I use (Overlay or VMR9).

BangoO,

Early last winter my EH8000 had a dark picture and I would use a gamma of about 2.2 to get it bright enough to view. I also would add a bit of extra color since the color were so washed out. Most of the blacks were lost and if I watched something with a lot of black material, like Matrix Revolutions even my son was complaining. I never could figure out what was going on until I took my Spyder sensor and pointed it at the screen. When I did some curves in Optical it turned out that the CRTs were not behaving as gamma 2.5 devices as expected. On doing some research I found Poyntons work on gamma and he stessed how CRTs are almost always gamma 2.5 unless they are mechanically different for some special purpose. Poynton also made a point that if the CRT drives are set to non-optimal values that the end result is that the CRT will appear to have a different gamma than 2.5! I experimented with different drive settings until my CRTs looked like gamma 2.5 devices to my Spyder. This was the answer for me. My picture was hugely improved and I no longer needed any color controls except for a bit of extra gamma. I also use an ICM profile to correct for some smaller problems but it is not as important as the drive settings. If a CRT acts differently than a gamma 2.5 device then the output will be different than expected by the producers.

In experimenting with setting level 16 black using test patterns I found that the artistic intent of the producer often interferes with my ability to differentiate between some of the darkest shades. My viewing room is very dark but the screen lights it up considerably with bright material. This in turn reflects back and produces a gray pedestal that changes with the amount of total light hitting my screen. Also many of the level 16 test patterns are surrounded by bright materials which also illuminate the screen to produce a gray pedestal. As far as viewing material goes it is common for producers to include a bit of bright material into a otherwise very dark screen. All these things cause a loss of visual accommodation. This is why DVE and Avia have a selection of dark reference targets mixed with bright areas, to meet different needs, I guess.

As a final bit of trivia. I noticed that in the standards that describe the "Subjective assessment of the Quality if Television Pictures" that the laboratory environment fixes the black luma (level 16) to white luma Level 235 ratio to be close to 0.01. White reference would be set to 70cd/m^2. The reference home environment the "Ratio of luminance of inactive screen to peak luminance" is <=0.02. The home environment would have a peak luminance of 200 cd/m^2 with an environmental luminance (incidental light) of 200 lux.

Charlie

I have finally built my HTPC and have been playing around with ffdshow. I have some questions and would appreciate some help. First I want to thank all the experts here for a lot of useful info. I have been following this thread altho I do not understand some of the discussions since I was not using ffdshow.

Here is my pc:

CPU: AMD64 3200+ Newcastle CG, 2.2 GHz, stock HSF
MB: Lanparty UT 256GB, not oc yet.
Celestica Radeon 9600xt
512 MB Samsung PC3200 DDR400
Seagate 120 GB SATA HDD

Here is my ffdshow setup:

Zplayer with powerdvd5(OEM) and windvd6(trial version)
Denoise3d - fast, 2.5 times resize, Lanczos 4, luma sharpen 1.0, YV12 output, Overlay Mixer.

winDVD6 gives the best PQ. CPU is about 70% with no overclocking.

Now, my question: there is a green tone to the picture when I watch LOR Two Towers. This green tone is not as pronounced in LOR Friendship. I recall reading discussions on the green tone, but I have gone back and also searched, but cannot find the posts. Would some of you be kind enough to point me to the pages, or give me some instructions/suggestions of what I can do to improve the green tone.

Many thanks. This has been a great hobby for me recently, and this is a great forum.

Page 128 to 138 (I think).

This is an edited version of a post I made in another thread.
I thought it would be useful to repost it here every now and then, as a good primer for the uninitiated.

FFDShow Tips

The first question often asked is:

What should I resize to?

Well, for high res displays, like 1776x1000 or 1920x1080 you should get the sharpest image by resizing to your desktop res.
Resizing to higher resolutions in FFDShow and downscaling in your video card will give a slightly softer and smoother image.
Try both and make your own choice as to what works best for you.

People with low res SD displays, or close to, really need to resize well above there desktop res and downscale in there video card to desktop res to clean up and anti alias the low res DVD image. Double DVD res should be quite adequate for that.

For the typical digital display res or 1280x720, I cannot say whether it is better to resize to display res or resize much higher and downscale in the video card. Again, try both and make your own choice.

The Radeon cards can only handle 2000x2000 input maximum, the last time I checked.

It is not required to resize vertical and horizontal by equal percentages.
For example, you can use 1440x1440 for NTSC DVD’s, so don’t be afraid to experiment with unusual combinations of horizontal and vertical.
It is generally more important to resize more vertically, due to the low vertical resolution of DVD.

The most popular resize algorithm is Lanczos. The quality or number of taps used by the algorithm is set by the “Parameter” control. 4=4Tap, 10=10Tap. The higher the setting the more CPU demanding the scaling becomes.
Be aware that Lanczos resize above 4 tap introduces noticeable ringing.
Most versions of FFDShow have other good algorithms, like Sinc and Spline and even Bicubic.
The “Preview SSE2” build by Andy has an optimized Lanczos 4 filter that is very fast and highly recommended. Unfortunately, SSE2 is only supported by P4 and Athlon64 chips.

The sharpen function in the resize filter is very subtle, and at low settings, you may not even know it is working, but like all sharpen filters, it can be ugly if overused, so don’t get to carried away trying to get a very obviously sharpened image. Less is more so to speak.
Don’t use the Chroma sharpen as it only increases noise, not sharpness.

The Dscaler sharpen filter is quite effective at bringing out very fine detail and works very differently to resize sharpen. A little of both can work well.
You can use it before or after resize, but it will be very subtle after resize and require much higher setting to be effective.
The down side of Dscaler sharpen is that it tends to increase noise.

I am not a fan of any of the sharpen filters under the “Sharpen” menu in FFDShow as I find them harsh, but by all means give them a try if you like.
Vlad came up with a setup for aSharp that may be useful.

Noise filtering is quite controversial, some people like it and some don’t.
The only noise filter worth using is Denoise3d. It works very well before resize.
I recommend a setting of L 0.0, C 1.0, T 5.0, HQ
The “L” (Lumma) and ”C” (Chroma) settings affect adjacent pixel blending.
The “T” (Time) setting affects the averaging of adjacent frames and has a large affect on noise rejection performance.
Using “L” values greater then 0.7 with result in loss of detail (all values under 0.8 are = to 0.0 for some strange reason).
A higher setting for “C” can be used without affecting detail, due to the lower resolution of the color signal in DVD’s. Much of the noise on DVD’s is color related, so higher settings for “C” are useful.

If you are using Andy’s “Preview SSE2 build” you will have the “Fast” option for Denoise3d which is MUCH faster then the normal, or HQ mode and can be used after resize, although I am not convinced that it works better there.
In “Fast” mode the L and C parameters are ignored and set to zero internally.
The “T” or time value should be set between 3.0 and 5.0
I personally like the Denoise3d filter and find it very effective. I even use it on 1920x1080 .TS files in Zoom Player.
You will need the “Preview” build with “Fast” mode for 1080i .TS files.

I see a lot of people using the “Levels” filter, but I have to say that I disagree with this practice.
Best practice is to set video card adjustments to default and adjust as best you can on your display. Then adjust desktop controls for VMR7 and VMR9 or Overlay controls for Overlay only if required.
Overlay has a tendency to crush white and black levels at default settings and you will normally need to reduce contrast and increase brightness a little in the Overlay controls to avoid this crush.
You may need to recalibrate black and white levels on your display after doing this.
If this is done, there should be no need to us the Levels filter.
Video card picture controls use no CPU and are performed with better precision then FFDShow.
The same applies to the “Picture properties” filter. Adjust in the display or with the video card.
Only adjust in FFDShow as a last resort.

We normally set FFDShows “Output” menu to YV12 only (everything else unchecked).
This is to prevent FFDShow from doing a YV12 to YUV2 conversion in software.
The video hardware does a better job of this and it also saves on CPU usage.
Most of FFDShows filters work in YV12 for speed and so must convert any YUV2 input to YV12.
It appears that the Resize filter will work in YUV2 color space but this requires more CPU power, so for speed reasons, we should use a filter before resize to do the conversion to YV12 and force the resize filter to operate in YV12.
It is debatable which filter is best to do this. The Gradual denoise filter set to a very low setting works without affecting the picture, but I personally like Denoise3d as it is a much more affective noise filter.
If you don’t want to use a noise filter, you can use “Picture properties”, “Levels” or even a “Sharpen” filter set very low, like Unsharp =1.
You must adjust one of the filters away from the default “off” state for this to work.
Fore example, Picture Properties with Luminance Gain 129.

Most DVD decoders output YUV2, but some decoders, like Dscaler5 and NVDVD 4.0 with it’s VPP can output YV12 color space directly and therefore do not need the use of an extra filter before resize.

All settings EXCEPT resize can be adjusted on the fly. Resize require you to close your player and restart.
The resize sharpen settings can be adjusted on the fly.

Don’t forget to check “Resize always” and “No aspect ratio correction” in the resize menu.

Note:
Zoom Player users may need to UNSELECT “Restrict AR adjustments to Height in Zoom Mode” in the “Aspect Ratio” menu, to prevent a black border around the image.

The “Post Processing” filters in FFDShow are of no use for DVD quality video. In fact I can’t find a good use for them on ANY video.

The “Crop” filter sometimes comes in handy for cutting off annoying white bars etc, like on the bottom of some TS file videos.

You will see check boxes for “Process whole image” in some menus. These should NOT be checked as they force FFDShow to process the black bars at the top and bottom of wide screen video. This is a waste of time and CPU.

There are NO compatibility issues with ANY Nvidia or Radeon cards or driver versions, as FFDShow does not communicate with the Hardware or drivers. It only sends data to the video renderer, either Overlay or VMR7-9, which is part of the windows system, not the video drivers.

The OSD (On Screen Display) function of FFDShow has its uses and is a good way to check if FFDShow is actually working, but DON’T leave it on as it uses significant CPU resources.

That’s about all I can think of for the moment.

It should take no more then 10 minutes to install, set up FFDShow and be playing your first DVD.

New users should not expect dramatic visual changes.
The improvements are often subtle and are meant to be.
If you set the filters to give very obvious changes to the video image, you have gone too far and will most likely notice unpleasant side affects, so take it easy, especially with sharpening.

So give FFDShow a try, it is NOT difficult to set up, despite what some people say, and will not cause your PC to explode, although it will tax it harder then just about anything else.
If your PC is overclocked, under cooled or in any way unreliable, FFDShow will almost certainly expose that weakness.
I have NEVER had a reliable PC crash using any version of FFDShow. So if your PC has problems, don’t blame FFDShow.
The worst you should ever see is an application lock up that can be corrected by using Ctr, Alt, Del, and ending the player task.


Good luck, and happy tweaking to all.



Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude

I'd like your opinions on the order of my filters that I am using. I am very happy with the PQ I am getting and continue to monkey around with the settings within the filters but am pretty happy where I've arrived! I want to experiment more with the order and I am curious what would be preferred and why.

I am using a 9800 pro card to a 2HD (Z2) pj. The ver of ffdshow is ffdshow-20040718.exe from athos.leffe.dnsalias.com with WinDVD 6 codecs. I get too much tearing with VMR9 so I use overlay.

My order of filters I am using is as follows:
Levels (output 16-235 and gamma at 1.03)

DScaler filter (sharpness at 38)

Avisynth (using BT601ToBT709 for green)

Noise (new noise algo/uniform noise checked L3 C4 I use if NOT using DScaler filter, some DVD's look better with, some the other way around. )

Blur & NR (denoise3d - playing around with L and C, T5, HQ enabled)

Resize (1552x1072) Lanczos4 L sharpen 0.80 C sharpen 0


Thanks for your feedback!:D

Jeff

Owen, your last post should be made into a stickie, as it is a very nice summary of FFdshow's capabilities and key configuration options...

My only point of disagreement is that FFdshow can cause crashes... especially the August preview that AndyIEG made available (I use this version as I'm CPU limited and it is much faster than the others I've tried)... One such crash happens if I put the VPP processor before FFdshow...

Eiffel

Owen;
Great post!!

I second Eiffel's suggestion to make it a stickie. Otherwise this info gets buried very fast (this ffdshow thread is now at 158 pages and counting...) Bob, what do you think?
____
Axel

Originally posted by Axel
Owen;
Great post!!

I second Eiffel's suggestion to make it a stickie. Otherwise this info gets buried very fast (this ffdshow thread is now at 158 pages and counting...) Bob, what do you think?
____
Axel

I say start a new thread ffdshow faq #2 and put owens post as the first post to start off the new thread ... then put a link to the old thread as the second post.

That way we wont scare the hell out of new FFdshow users who look at the 158 pages and just get lost in the info.

also put a link to the second (new) thread as the last post in this thread.

Owen,

Thanks for all the effort you put into your recommendations.

My range of knowledge is limited mainly to nVidia video with VMR9 with a crt projector so my observations should be viewed from that perspective.

Many ffdshow users (like me) have projectors that expect reference black to be at level 0 and reference white to be at level 255. This is true of all computer style monitors. If this type of monitor is in the users system then your some of your recommendations regarding levels would not produce acceptable video output.
I see a lot of people using the �Levels� filter, but I have to say that I disagree with this practice. Why? I checked out the levels filter with a scope and it does as advertised. It is a low cpu utilization way for people who have a display that expects reference black at level 0 and reference white at level 255 as all computer monitors do. If there is enough computing power at hand then it is nicer to force YUY2 output so that the levels filter is not needed. But if the computer is not fast enough levels expansion from studio video levels (16-235) to PC monitor levels (0-255) with YV12 output works very well. As always, the expansion of studio video levels to monitor levels is accompanied by a loss of 36 levels due to rounding errors. I can't see any difference with or without the 36 levels on my system when using gray-scale test ramps.Best practice is to set video card adjustments to default and adjust as best you can on your display. Then adjust desktop controls for VMR7 and VMR9 or Overlay controls for Overlay only if required. If I did this on my computer monitor type display I would have to set my reference white (level 235) to be as bright as possible without blooming to have decent whites on my crt projector. The hitch is that while studio video reference white is fine the windows desktop and all applications will frequently overdrive since they are outputting levels 0 to 255 a clear 20 levels above blooming. The overdriven picture is so bad that it is not usable for even minor things. The black reference is a problem too. Using your instructions would cause me to adjust my crt monitor to have reference black (level 16) to give a good black for studio video but all non-video would have the grays between level 0 and level 16 compressed to black.If this is done, there should be no need to us the Levels filter. See above.

I applaud your effort to make things better for the beginner and hope that in the future you might find time to add a bit about installation and how to deal with things like AbstractDMO, codecs for beginners, Adobe Gamma and any other show stoppers that you can think of.

Thanks again.

Charlie

Originally posted by bedo
I'd like your opinions on the order of my filters that I am using. I am very happy with the PQ I am getting and continue to monkey around with the settings within the filters but am pretty happy where I've arrived! I want to experiment more with the order and I am curious what would be preferred and why.

I am using a 9800 pro card to a 2HD (Z2) pj. The ver of ffdshow is ffdshow-20040718.exe from athos.leffe.dnsalias.com with WinDVD 6 codecs. I get too much tearing with VMR9 so I use overlay.

My order of filters I am using is as follows:
Levels (output 16-235 and gamma at 1.03)

DScaler filter (sharpness at 38)

Avisynth (using BT601ToBT709 for green)

Noise (new noise algo/uniform noise checked L3 C4 I use if NOT using DScaler filter, some DVD's look better with, some the other way around. )

Blur & NR (denoise3d - playing around with L and C, T5, HQ enabled)

Resize (1552x1072) Lanczos4 L sharpen 0.80 C sharpen 0


Thanks for your feedback!:D

Jeff

Your filter order looks fine Jeff.


Owen

Originally posted by Owen
Your filter order looks fine Jeff.


Owen

Nice. :)

Thank you for all the effort to make this a group undertaking. This thread just keeps on giving! The end result has been very rewarding for me.

Gday Charles,

There will always be special circumstances that may require the Levels filter, and yours is one.
However, most displays have more light output then they need, and I would expect that most people would have the contrast control on there display turned down so that the maximum light output before crushing or blooming is never used.
My CRT RPTV has contrast set so that the CTR’s are not even remotely close to blooming. If I where to use all the available light output from the CRT’s, I would need sun glasses to view the damn thing.
I understand that with a CRT front projector, you would be glad to get as much light output as possible.

Anyway with most displays, there should never be any need to restrict maximum level on a HTPC to 235, as 255 is never outside the normal useable range of the display and we can output 255 without any risk of crushing or blooming.
All this means is that peak white on DVD’s will almost never reach the peak white level of the Windows desktop. No problem there, all we have done is allow a little head room for the occasional DVD that has information above white (235) and we have avoided needlessly cutting of 20 levels.

Black level is a bigger can of worms
I personally like to use VMR and set 0 to black on my system as I like the excellent shadow detail this provides. I can resolve the difference between 0 and 4, and yet black on DVD’s still looks black most of the time, so I cant see much point in discarding 16 levels at the black end.
I can understand that this setup may not look good on all display types, as there may be issues with grey blacks. Digital displays could easily be affected by this.
However, leaving levels set to 0 and adjusting the Brightness control on the display so that black is archived at a level of between 0 and 16 should work fine most of the time.

As for Gamma adjustment, Radeons have perfectly adequate Gamma control, and Nvidia cards have absolutely incredible Gamma control options, so there is no need to do Gamma adjustment in the Levels filter

So to round up, I can see no need for most people to use FFDShows “Levels” filter, as a perfectly good result can be achieved without it under most circumstances.

I think many people are using the Levels filter just because others seem to be using it and without understanding why. This should be discouraged IMHO.

There will always be circumstances where the Levels filter has its place, and if it works for you, go for it.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

ahhhhhhhhhhh hehe :) guess i need some sort of test disc/pattern to adjust my DLP FP and FFDShow/Overlay properly as i find it a bit hard using DVD/Files. Is there any downloadable file that does this?

My "guess" is on such a display i should pull the displays contrast back from default (50) to say 35 on the displays as a start. Then perhaps bump the brightness up in the overlay (which inturn will raise the black floor) and combat this by reducing the brightness of the display till full black is reached. Then also reduce the contrast in overlay?
(i think this will provide a weak flat picture, but i will try).

Im guessing a DLP front pro works 0 - 255?


So Owen, when are you coming up to brisbane next so ya can calibrate my setup nicely :) hehe

where can I download Dscaler sharpening filter? Or can someone direct me to a link, thanks.

You can DL the filter here. (http://rennfast.dns2go.com/Public/HTPC/DScaler/)

Jesus H. Christ this thread is huge! Well considering the vast length of this thread I don't really expect an answer but here goes..

Regarding the order of applied filters in FFDSHOW, is it better to apply sharpening (unsharp mask: 30) before denoise 3d? Or should you denoise before you sharpen?

Owen (and the others), now that I use VMR9, I'm resizing my NTSC DVDs to 1440*1440 and my PAL DVDs to 1440*1728.
My output resolutions are 1920*1080 fort NTSC and 1280*768 for PAL.
Theoretically, is it better to resize to the output resolution or to do what I do now ?

I'm asking this because I know one had to resize very high with VMR9 in order to get a sharp image, but I also read that it may have been fixed with DirectX 9.0c, and I use DirectX 9.0c.

Originally posted by mbaxter
Jesus H. Christ this thread is huge! Well considering the vast length of this thread I don't really expect an answer but here goes..

Regarding the order of applied filters in FFDSHOW, is it better to apply sharpening (unsharp mask: 30) before denoise 3d? Or should you denoise before you sharpen?

If you must use Unsharp Mask, do it before Denoise3d

In general, sharpening filters accentuate noise and make it easier for Denoise3d to remove.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by BangoO
Owen (and the others), now that I use VMR9, I'm resizing my NTSC DVDs to 1440*1440 and my PAL DVDs to 1440*1728.
My output resolutions are 1920*1080 fort NTSC and 1280*768 for PAL.
Theoretically, is it better to resize to the output resolution or to do what I do now ?

I'm asking this because I know one had to resize very high with VMR9 in order to get a sharp image, but I also read that it may have been fixed with DirectX 9.0c, and I use DirectX 9.0c.

You are correct about VMR9 and sharpness.
I find that resizing to my desktop resolutions of 1776x1000 NTSC and 1920x1080 for PAL is more then enough resize to get sharp results with VMR9.
Resizing above my desktop res gives me a slightly softer image.

Using a 1280x768 desktop with resize to 1280x768 may not be enough.
The only way you will know, is to compare 1280x768 resize with 1440x1728 and make up your own mind as to what works best for you.
Why use such a low res desktop for PAL?

In the end, the differences are very small so don’t stress over it.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Thx Owen.

1280*768 is line tripling, which is high enough for PAL material.
As long as I don't see the scan lines, it's fine.
I was using this before using ffdshow, and at the time I prefered to output at a multiple of 576.
But now that I use ffdshow, it's useless so maybe I should try to display everything at 1080p, and resize everything at 1080p...

would like to try Dscaler on FFDshow, at the moment I have dscaler sharpness filter. What other stuff can I use with Dscaler? Deinterlace etc? Can someone post a link to all useful dscaler functions for use with FFDSHOW? thanks.

Originally posted by Owen
Overlay has a tendency to crush white and black levels at default settings and you will normally need to reduce contrast and increase brightness a little in the Overlay controls to avoid this crush.


Good post Owen. And yes, the default settings do need to be adjusted as above.

I have used a scope to set mine to output the correct levels (currently using TheaterTek 2) and then use DVE Pluge and Reverse greyscales to set the projector by eye to pass the detail I want at each end of the range.

Anyone still getting tearing with VMR9 on an ATI card may want to try the latest drivers. I installed the newest Omega set and no more tearing! I also have changed to the Dscalar codec, which may also be a factor.

JDLIVE,

Where can these magical omega drivers be obtained ? :-)

Cheers,
Bitey

Omega drivers can be found at http://www.omegadrivers.net/

Great thread!!

I just recently got interested in HTPC and have a few questions about ffdshow. For the most part, I've ironed out most of the bugs and have ffdshow up and running - looks great but locks up occasionally (picture freezes). Since it looks like some of the greatest minds in the country are posting here : ), I may be able to get a few problems solved by asking.

Hardware:
- HP zd7000 notebook, 3Ghz P4 HT, 512ram, GF go5700/128mb, m-audio sonica usb sound, BenQ pb6100 DLP projector (800x600 native)

Software:
- WinXP home, Theatertek DVD, FFDShow

1. Powerstrip tells me the GF go5700 runs 2D at GPU 100 Mhz/ Memory 200Mhz. Can and should I adjust these to faster settings. Would the faster settings help in running ffdshow?

2. I noticed that alot of settings are being thrown about, and I do realize that taste is a personal thing, but has anyone found the optimal setting for the pb6100 projector? Or could anyone suggest a good starting point for experimentation?

3. Is setting up a mirror to reflect a larger projected image in a smaller room as as simple as it sounds? Do i need a special mirror? Do I lose image quality? Are there any tricks to it?

Thanks in advance for the help

Apologies if this was asked (and answered) already. I couldn't find the answer using the search engine.

Is it possible to apply FFDSHOW filtering to live HD programs on a hardware only card like MyHD?

I'm guessing the answer is no. My guess is that the transport stream gets completely processed on the MyHD card and never even makes it onto the PCI bus or into system memory. So FFDSHOW doesn't even have access to the data in order to process it on the fly.

Perhaps, however, I could still apply FFDSHOW filtering to a *.tp file that the MyHD card recorded to the HDD?

Thanks.

Originally posted by tan77646
would like to try Dscaler on FFDshow, at the moment I have dscaler sharpness filter. What other stuff can I use with Dscaler? Deinterlace etc? Can someone post a link to all useful dscaler functions for use with FFDSHOW? thanks.

There are not really any other useful Dscaler filters.
The deinterlace filters are good but very slow.

Regards,

Owen

Originally posted by pdg540
Great thread!!

1. Powerstrip tells me the GF go5700 runs 2D at GPU 100 Mhz/ Memory 200Mhz. Can and should I adjust these to faster settings. Would the faster settings help in running ffdshow?

2. I noticed that alot of settings are being thrown about, and I do realize that taste is a personal thing, but has anyone found the optimal setting for the pb6100 projector? Or could anyone suggest a good starting point for experimentation?

3. Is setting up a mirror to reflect a larger projected image in a smaller room as as simple as it sounds? Do i need a special mirror? Do I lose image quality? Are there any tricks to it?

Thanks in advance for the help


1. You can increase the GPU and RAM clocks, but it will only make a marginal difference and in a notebook, you risk overheating the GPU.

2. Sorry, can’t help with that. Do a few tests yourself.

3. You should use a front surface coated mirror, not a normal back coated mirror.
I can’t say how much difference this makes, but mirrors used in projection systems are front surface coated to avoid refraction problems.
Using a good mirror, you should not loose quality.

Regards,

Owen

Originally posted by L8N8
Apologies if this was asked (and answered) already. I couldn't find the answer using the search engine.

Is it possible to apply FFDSHOW filtering to live HD programs on a hardware only card like MyHD?

I'm guessing the answer is no. My guess is that the transport stream gets completely processed on the MyHD card and never even makes it onto the PCI bus or into system memory. So FFDSHOW doesn't even have access to the data in order to process it on the fly.

Perhaps, however, I could still apply FFDSHOW filtering to a *.tp file that the MyHD card recorded to the HDD?

Thanks.


You should probably ask this question in the MyHD thread.

I’m not sure about .tp files, but I use FFDShow in Zoom Player to play .ts files.

You will need an outrageously fast PC do much processing on 1080i files.
I can only just manage to use Denoise3d (Fast Mode) and Deinterlace on a 3.5Gig P4 system with 1Gig FSB and 1:1 RAM timing.

Regards,

Owen

Originally posted by Eiffel
My only point of disagreement is that FFdshow can cause crashes... especially the August preview that AndyIEG made available (I use this version as I'm CPU limited and it is much faster than the others I've tried)... One such crash happens if I put the VPP processor before FFdshow...

I couldn't find an answer on these forums to the FFDShow preview build crashing problem with the 'Fast' option when using the Nvidia VPP. But recently managed to get it to work by simply enabling a filter before the Denoise3D filter, such as the "Picture Properties" filter.
So my filters for the "ffdshow-20040801a_preview_SSE2.exe" build (in order):
Picture Properties (RGB correction B1.01)
Blur & NR (Denoise3D - FAST)
Resize & aspect

I found that using the SSE2_preview version with NVPP as primary, I need the dscaler filter before denoise3D...without dscaler filter ffdshow craches TT2.0...

Originally posted by Eiffel
Owen, your last post should be made into a stickie, as it is a very nice summary of FFdshow's capabilities and key configuration options...

My only point of disagreement is that FFdshow can cause crashes... especially the August preview that AndyIEG made available (I use this version as I'm CPU limited and it is much faster than the others I've tried)... One such crash happens if I put the VPP processor before FFdshow...

Eiffel

I use the "Preview" build of FFDShow and have NEVER crashed my PC.
A crash requires the reset button to be used.
The most you should ever see is an error in your player that may require Ctrl, Alt, Del to close the app.
You should NEVER be able to lock up Windows XP by using FFDShow.
I think it is unfair to blame FFDShow if it has problems with third party filters like NVDVD’s VPP.
Why not blame NVDVD. FFDShow was here first.

I can get NVDVD and VPP working on the “Preview” build but I have unresolved color problems with NVDVD 4.0 and much prefer the Dscaler5 decoder.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

I've been using the preview build for a long time with NVPP first, using TT2.02, in Overlay mode with Smart enabled. Never get a crash. I do have Dscaler before Denoise. I have Levels, Avisynth, Descaler, Denoise3D and Resize in that order.

I also do not have Fast checked in Denoise. This is because with Fast checked, there is a low-level noise problem (vertical structure and residual images) on dark gray or black backgrounds.

I'm using a P4 3.15GHz, 500MB Dual500 DDR. Radeon 9500Pro Cat4.6.

Well, guys, I need to do some more testing ;)

(The issue I'm experiencing may be due to the fact that TT2.02 is still relatively green... but I can confirm that my PC reboots automatically with NVPP, and ffdShow using only Denoise3D and resize in this order... All in all, it's far from a deal breaker and a faster processor is on the way to give me more options)

I'm trying to determine if I need to change my Levels from my current settings of 0-255 for both input & output to something else, such as the 16-235 some people state is the optimal setting.

How do you read the histogram to determine this?

Check the box for it, turn on Full Spectrum, and view it while playing a DVD, preferably one with a lot of dark scenes.

On my setup, I see a vertical line right at 16.

Yes, but what does that vertical line mean? What does it mean for how I should set the input and output levels?

How do I use the information in the histogram to determine if I should change my default setup (i.e. 0-255)

The histogram seems too small to tell anything from it. There's a large gap of nothing after the data and no upper line. I also don't see where there are numbers to show the lower line is at 16. It would be nice if there were lines that moved with the sliders for input or output. Then it might be useful.

I'm using the latest version of FFDSHOW 20041012-SSE2

I have a P4 2.8GHz Northwood
768Mb DDR
ATI 9800PRO

The only setting i make in ffdshow is resize of 800x600 with Lanczos 4 and my cpu is maxed out. How are you guys getting ?x960 and not maxing out your cpu.

Originally posted by linearxs
I'm using the latest version of FFDSHOW 20041012-SSE2

I have a P4 2.8GHz Northwood
768Mb DDR
ATI 9800PRO

The only setting i make in ffdshow is resize of 800x600 with Lanczos 4 and my cpu is maxed out. How are you guys getting ?x960 and not maxing out your cpu.

search the answers are in this thread:

try in this order
1. Denoise 3D, 0.5,0.5,5.0,HQ
2. Resize (should be able to push above your 800x600)
3. Lanczos4, Lu 0.7, Ch 0.0
4. Output YV12

if using TT2, try using overlay and
1) NVPP (primary)
2) FFDSHOW(secondary)
a) resize x by y, lanzcos as above
b)(output colorspace) YV12

I also overclock my P42.8 up nicely up to 3.2 to help but could do this at 2.8

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
Yes, but what does that vertical line mean? What does it mean for how I should set the input and output levels?

How do I use the information in the histogram to determine if I should change my default setup (i.e. 0-255)


Although I haven't tested this theory with a 1.78 DVD, I think that black line is the black letterbox bars at the top and bottom of the screen. That would give a constant high level of blacks at that point.

You can't tell exactly what the numbers are just by looking at it, but in the version of ffdshow I use (October 28 SSE2, maybe), if you drag the Input sliders, it shows a dotted vertical line in the histogram. That line hits the black (letterbox?) bar at 16.

And if even in with lots of bright whites, there is nothing on the very right of the histogram (with Full Spectrum turned on), then there is probably nothing above that point (about 235).

Carey P,

The far left of the histogram is level 0 and the far right is level 255. It auto-scales so if there is a large amount of black on the screen then all the rest of your levels will be reduced in amplitude. The levels histogram is actually very useful after you get used to it. Level 16 is where reverence black is and level 235 (reference white) is usually the highest level you will see there. The sliders do have level numbers so all you need to do is look at them as your adjusting.

Perhaps you might prefer a larger histogram....;)

http://home.centurytel.net/cblack/avia 3-28 simple resize ffd040709.jpg

The above is best seen at 640x480. I'm not sure what the issues are with large images on this forum so I reduced this down from 1440x768 to 640x480.

The image is the result of ffdshow resizing to 1440x768 with Simple Resize. JPEG quality is max so the image is highly representative of the origional.

This is AVISynth Histogram and it is a line by line type. At the right side is the histogram bar which has level 0 at it's far left and level 255 at it's far right. the dark bars are meant to warn that the signal is getting into the "forbidden" areas (0 to15 area as well as the 236 to 255 area). Actually video signals are legal from level 1 to level 255 but the studio video standard puts reference black at 16 and reference white at 235 and all producers must use this standard if they want to have there video work well with existing equipment. The "forbidden" levels are reserved for filter and amplifier overshoot.

Charlie

New ffdshow user here.

Got it working and tried a few settings. Just have a question on the video output.

Got a Laptop with a DVI output to an LCD Samsung Panel HDTV which does 1280x720.
Using Powerstrip to match the rez of the LCD TV


In window mode the DVD video looks very sharp. When switching to full screen it seems to zoom the picture to fill the screen making it less sharp.

I've tried resizing to 1280x720 and also 1920x1080. Picture is great in Windowed mode but who want to watch it like that?

I'm using zoom player pro and the ffdshow filter.

Am I missing a setting with the Zoom player or ffdshow or is that just normal?

Thanks for all the great information, but I am still unsure of what to use in the historgram's level sliders to set them properly for my setup. As I move them I notice the picture gets brighter and dimmer, and I do understand that some here say you should set it to 16 and 235 (for both input and output?), but other than that I'm completely lost.

My setup relating to this question is:
Sony GWIII (42we610) via DVI from Nvidia FX5900XT with default display settings at 1384x760 desktop rez
FFDShow 01082004preview build with 1440x960 resize
DScaler 0.0.0.4 decoder

JoeFigueiredo,

In most cases there should be no need to use the Levels filter.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4615508#post4615508

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4617210#post4617210

Happy tweaking,


Owen
____________________________
The FFDShow resize sharpen dude.

Here is the grandaddy thread that argues for not limiting your output to 16-235. I just turned off the levels filter and I'm happier for it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=416292&referrerid=5258

Cary

Hi all, I love what ffdshow can do for PQ.
But I have some kind of problem.
I would like to resize my dvd's to my projectors' native resolution (1280x720). I have an AMD XP 2500+ and a ATI Radeon 9800Pro.
When every option is turned off, the CPU load is about 20%. As soon as I turn on resizing, (Lancos Auto, Luna sharpen 1,0) and nothing else, my CPU-load rizes to ~98%. A XP2500+ should be able to handle this right??
What could be the problem??

What

Originally posted by Wolfer
New ffdshow user here.

Got it working and tried a few settings. Just have a question on the video output.

Got a Laptop with a DVI output to an LCD Samsung Panel HDTV which does 1280x720.
Using Powerstrip to match the rez of the LCD TV


In window mode the DVD video looks very sharp. When switching to full screen it seems to zoom the picture to fill the screen making it less sharp.

I've tried resizing to 1280x720 and also 1920x1080. Picture is great in Windowed mode but who want to watch it like that?

I'm using zoom player pro and the ffdshow filter.

Am I missing a setting with the Zoom player or ffdshow or is that just normal?

There should be a "Zoom" button and a "Full Screen" button. You may be pressing the Zoom button by accident.

Also, try turing on the OSD for ffdshow to make sure it's working and resizing to the resolution you want.

HTPC DVD PLay Back Issues HELP

I'm having an issues playing back DVD's on my HTPC. I really don't know where to start some suggestions or guides please.

My setup:
PC:
P4 3.0E 1GIG memory, nVidia 5200 256MB card with DVI ,VGA, and S-video out. Samsung 12X OEM DVD-+ dual layer burner. I dont have the specs not sure if I need to post them or not.
TV:
Mitsubishi WD-52525 using VGA cable from video card to VGA input on TV
Software:
FFDShow ffdshow-20041012.exe
PowerStrip: 1200x666 modified to fix overscan issues.
PowerStrip timing parameters:
1200x666=1200,112,136,216,666,28,3,49,74556,2050
Theater Tek 1.5.x
Trying FFDShow through Theater TEK 1.5.x I tweaked FFDShow according to the guides in this fourm. Picture is noticably sharper and more detailed than my progressive scan toshiba DVD player BUT the video is choppy. Playing Lord of the Rings drive's me crazy with the choppyness.

Thanks a bunch in advance.
-G

Choppy video could mean that your settings are too high for your setup, although with that setup you should be able to handle some heavy stuff.

It will probably depend on your FFDSHOW settings. Ie., using certain filters after a large resize can eat a lot of CPU. Using too high of a Lanczos tap (parameter) on too high of a resize size can also take a lot of CPU.


If you really want help, post your actual settings (resize settings, any other filters) and any other parameters that you set in TT, etc.

Originally posted by cyberbri
There should be a "Zoom" button and a "Full Screen" button. You may be pressing the Zoom button by accident.

Also, try turing on the OSD for ffdshow to make sure it's working and resizing to the resolution you want.


I found the problem and getting a great picture! I clicked on the interlaced box and the picture cleared up.

That interlaced box seems to be bugged because if you click it the check disappears and your not sure if it’s on or turned off.

Originally posted by Wolfer
I found the problem and getting a great picture! I clicked on the interlaced box and the picture cleared up.

That interlaced box seems to be bugged because if you click it the check disappears and your not sure if it’s on or turned off.

Ha I'm such a newb. Just saw the button has 4 settings. On, off, greyed, and filled.

So what is the setting it suppose to have for just DVD's?

Originally posted by jcmccorm
Here is the grandaddy thread that argues for not limiting your output to 16-235. I just turned off the levels filter and I'm happier for it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=416292&referrerid=5258

Cary

I have quickly review the link, and maybe I am wrong, but I will tend to consider that every blacker than back level informations may result by compression artefact from MPEG2 process, and or the video line process.

TO RESUME:
Blacker than black information (bellow level 16) may exists into every MPEG2 compression, even into a THX formated compression film: it is the result of compression artefact and or video transport line configuration (I will not enter deeper into the subject). The presence of below black information should not be consider as a visual information, but just as a signal transport.
DO NOT BE TROUBLE: EVERY DVD AUTHORING PROCESS SHOULD ONLY WORK ON A VISUAL RANGE OF 16-235, and I can insure you that every calibrated monitor that are used for doing the transfert and the compression of films are calibrated to display that range (16-235).

CALIBRATING THE OUTPUT:
The only think you have to understand is at what moment do you want to calibrate the level output.
* If you want to be sure that you use all the contrast range of your digital projector: USE LEVEL 16-235 CLIPING, so do the calibration with FFDSHOW.
* If your videoprojector accept IRE level input and or BT601 colorspace input, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE 16-235 CLIPING and use one of those two options to calibrate the output.
** In all options, check your gamma curves to have a perfect 2.2 gamma that can insure you to have a good visibility of dark and bright informations.

PS HISTORY:
Full amplitude video signal (digitally 0-255) BT601, is an heredity of TV standard where the signal should be transmited by radio, so there was a difference between the carry signal and the info signal. Since that standard creation, visual information have always been just a part of the full amplitude of the signal!

I wanted to post some screen shots that show the relationship between ffdshow resize algorithms but the jpeg compression destroys the information. If you don't mind downloading 400KB files ;) then here are a few captures including histograms to ponder.

Simple resize to 1440x960:
http://acme99.dyndns.org/avia%203-28%20simple%20resize%20ffd040709.png

Bicubic resize to 1440x960, P0, Luma sharpening 0.5
http://acme99.dyndns.org/avia%203-28%20bicubic%20p0%20ls0.5%20ffd040802SSE.png

Lanczos resize 1440x960, P4, Luma sharpen 0.0
http://acme99.dyndns.org/avia%203-28%20Lanc%20p4%20ls0.0%20ffd040802SSE.png

Lanczos resize 1440x960, P4, Luma sharpen 0.5
http://acme99.dyndns.org/avia%203-28%20Lanc%20p4%20ls0.5%20ffd040802SSE.png

Charlie

Originally posted by Charles Black
I wanted to post some screen shots that show the relationship between ffdshow resize algorithms but the jpeg compression destroys the information. If you don't mind downloading 400KB files ;) then here are a few captures including histograms to ponder.



Ooooh... lookit all that ringing!
:eek:

Gazzagazza,

Oops! Did I include one that you use?:D

Charlie

Originally posted by Charles Black
Gazzagazza,

Oops! Did I include one that you use?:D

Charlie

Nah, when I do use it I use bicubic with no sharpening. Right now its TT2.02 DXVA no postprocessors at all. Just focusing on the movie, not the tweaking for a while.:p

Gazzagazza,

Here's your choice - you chose wisely... ;)

Bicubic resize to 1440x960, P0, Luma sharpening 0.0
http://acme99.dyndns.org/avia%203-28%20bicubic%20p0%20ls0.0%20ffd040802SSE.png

Charlie

Originally posted by Charles Black
Gazzagazza,

Here's your choice - you chose wisely... ;)



Ahh... lookit that! Perfeck!

:p

To those guys with the flawless working 1920*1080 resizing systems:

HOW DO YOU GET THERE ?

I have just set up a system with an Athlon 64 3500 and 1gb DUal RAM and HT as a 939 system with an ATI X800, but I get only a flawless movie without loosing frames when I have a scaling to 1024*768.

I am using ZP4.1, the latest DSCALER5 Decoder, Andies' optimized ffdshow from July, all in YV12 mode with only resizing and unsharpen mask without OSD. When going up to 1280*1024 I am losing already frames. I use VMR9, but overlay as well gives only a small improvement.

Which version of ffdshow are you using ? What are you secrets ?

Originally posted by multiblitz
To those guys with the flawless working 1920*1080 resizing systems:

HOW DO YOU GET THERE ?

I have just set up a system with an Athlon 64 3500 and 1gb DUal RAM and HT as a 939 system with an ATI X800, but I get only a flawless movie without loosing frames when I have a scaling to 1024*768.

I am using ZP4.1, the latest DSCALER5 Decoder, Andies' optimized ffdshow from July, all in YV12 mode with only resizing and unsharpen mask without OSD. When going up to 1280*1024 I am losing already frames. I use VMR9, but overlay as well gives only a small improvement.

Which version of ffdshow are you using ? What are you secrets ?

Do you have FastWrites enabled?

The A64s just aren't as good as the P4s when it comes to ffdshow. My old P4 2.8C running at 3.2GHz, 1GB PC3200, 9700Pro seems to be faster at ffdshow than my current A64 3200+ running at 2574MHz, 1GB PC4000, 6800GT. Not sure about DVD video, but on xvid/divx encoded videos, I'm stuck at 1200x900, and sometimes even that lags.

That is odd, my Athlon XP-M 2600 when at 2.5ghz or more can do better than that. I can resize to 2160x1920 lanczos, while using denoised3 hq, elecard decoders, and vmr9. I have my mobile barton at 2.5 right now and this setup uses ~80% cpu with spikes to near 90% on high motion, but no studdering or tearing. I still have room to push my system since it is stable over 2.7ghz.

Are you trying this on xvid encoded videos or regular DVDs? DVD devoding is a lot less CPU intensive.

Originally posted by cetoole
That is odd, my Athlon XP-M 2600 when at 2.5ghz or more can do better than that. I can resize to 2160x1920 lanczos, while using denoised3 hq, elecard decoders, and vmr9. I have my mobile barton at 2.5 right now and this setup uses ~80% cpu with spikes to near 90% on high motion, but no studdering or tearing. I still have room to push my system since it is stable over 2.7ghz.

Sounds great.
Please share the exact versions you have and their settings, as a lot of us cannot do with our AMD's what you seem to achieve.

@goi: The size limitation is true for both, avi and DVDs

I would like as well understand which exact software setup you use as I won't change my hardware.

BEst Regards

I have done it on both xvid encoded videos (simpsons TV caps) and regular DVDs. I don't use max settings everyday, because I often have several other apps running, AIM, Firefox, but I have tested regular xvid movies as fine with 1920x1440 lanczos with denoise3d, not sure about the higher settings. I am currently using the newest SSE version, I have a Mobile Barton 2600, the speed I was at while testing was 230*11=2.53ghz, RAM is 2x512 Kingston HyperX PC3200 with BH-5 chips running 2-2-2-11 timings in dual channel on Abit AN7 with a modded bios using DFI Ultra Infinity ROM SIP tables, running idle in the mid 30's, load in the low 40's, Radeon 9600 pro running 475 core/680mem, Windows is tweaked a good deal, my last install was with a slipstream disk of XP that I made that removed a decent amount of overhead, using Zoomplayer 4.0, settings were Denoise3D HQ, settings depend on source, Lanczos parameter=Default, luma sharpen 0.5, tested up to 2160x1920 VMR9 of course, overlay doesn't work right at that level. The system is good for 235*11.5, and I have been into windows at 225*12.5=2.82ghz, but not stable yet. I am doing some testing to find a vtt mod for my mobo because it doesn't track correctly beyond 2.8v, so when that is fixed, I should be above 250mhz fsb with RAM 1:1. I have no idea why those A64 systems are not doing this, you should be faster.

sorry, just wanted to re-subscribe... hit the wrong email link :)

Originally posted by Goi
The A64s just aren't as good as the P4s when it comes to ffdshow. My old P4 2.8C running at 3.2GHz, 1GB PC3200, 9700Pro seems to be faster at ffdshow than my current A64 3200+ running at 2574MHz, 1GB PC4000, 6800GT. Not sure about DVD video, but on xvid/divx encoded videos, I'm stuck at 1200x900, and sometimes even that lags.

Same here. My older gaming system with a P4 3.2c @ 3.4 runs a lot better then my HTPC with an AMD 64 3200+ @ 2.4oc'd. Real weird. In ZP with ffdshow I have probm's when I try to do anything at 1280x720. Using resize and sharpening (some times). Using an ATI 9700pro oc'd. Also no probm running WMV T2 xtreme on the P4, but a lot of drop frames on the AMD 64. But then I am using a 6800 Ultra OC'd on the P4....that could prob be the difference. But for norm DVD playback, using the ffdshow, I can not get it to run at 1280x720 with out hitches.

Have u "64" ppl tried the non SSE2 Jun 7 build?

1280 x 720 should not be an issue at all.

I can run Lancoz 1440 x 1152 on NON clock athlon 2400 Tbird!!!!!!!!!

You guys have trouble with the WMVHD videos with A64 systems? There must be something wrong here, as I don't even need to OC my XP-M 2600 barton to play any that I have tried.

Yeah, I have an A64 2800+ with a Radeon 9600 (non-Pro), and I resize DVDs to 1280x768 w/ Lancoz 4-tap and Denoise3D HQ, and it never jumps over 75% CPU usage. Oh, and I use the same settings for high-quality XVIDs and DIVXs, in addition to post-processing, and it still never comes close to dropping a frame. This is all in VMR9, mind you. So I really don't think there's anything wrong with A64s. I'm using the latest SSE2 ffdshow off of SourceForge with the latest DScaler 5 decoder.

Flanger

I can run Lancoz 1440 x 1152 on NON clock athlon 2400 Tbird!!!!!!!!!

Just wanted to make you aware that this last line doesn't make any sense. I'm assuming that you meant non-overclocked instead of "NON clock", but there is no such thing as an "athlon 2400 Tbird". You could have an Athlon XP 2400+, but that would mean that it is either using the Thoroughbred (sometimes abbreviated "TBred") or Barton core, depending on the variety. The "Tbird" or Thunderbird core was discontinued after the Athlon 1400MHz. This was before they started using the "Athlon XP" name and also before they started using preformance ratings (ie. "2400+").

Originally posted by multiblitz
To those guys with the flawless working 1920*1080 resizing systems:

HOW DO YOU GET THERE ?

I have just set up a system with an Athlon 64 3500 and 1gb DUal RAM and HT as a 939 system with an ATI X800, but I get only a flawless movie without loosing frames when I have a scaling to 1024*768.

I am using ZP4.1, the latest DSCALER5 Decoder, Andies' optimized ffdshow from July, all in YV12 mode with only resizing and unsharpen mask without OSD. When going up to 1280*1024 I am losing already frames. I use VMR9, but overlay as well gives only a small improvement.

Which version of ffdshow are you using ? What are you secrets ?

My AMD64 3200+ can do 1792x1200 with no problem

System spec:
AMD64 3200+ oc'd to 2500GHz
1x512 Samsung pc3200 ddr400 oc'd to ddr450 (2.5,3,3,7) - inexpensive ram
Celestica Radeon 9600xt not oc'd

ffdshow settings:
Andy's sse2 preview version
Denoise3d ->Fast
Resize 2.5 times ->1792x1200
Lanzcos 4 with Chroma and Luma sharpen of 1.0
YV12

ZP VMR9
PowerDVD5

CPU is running at 52% with OSD on
If I run at stock speed, CPU runs at 70%

This result is not bad compared to Intel system. Since you are using amd64 3500+, you should be able to get better cpu usage. Maybe check all your settings?

Denoise3D fast always crashes for me, and I don't think I'm the only one. It has happened to me on 2 very different systems - a P4 Northwood and an A64 Newcastle system.

Originally posted by multiblitz

Which version of ffdshow are you using ? What are you secrets ?

Double check your PCI / AGP latencies in Powerstrip. If they are above 128 for the video card, lower them.

Originally posted by m0tion
Just wanted to make you aware that this last line doesn't make any sense. I'm assuming that you meant non-overclocked instead of "NON clock", but there is no such thing as an "athlon 2400 Tbird". You could have an Athlon XP 2400+, but that would mean that it is either using the Thoroughbred (sometimes abbreviated "TBred") or Barton core, depending on the variety. The "Tbird" or Thunderbird core was discontinued after the Athlon 1400MHz. This was before they started using the "Athlon XP" name and also before they started using preformance ratings (ie. "2400+").

yeah Thoroughbred thats it :) hehe

Originally posted by Goi
Denoise3D fast always crashes for me, and I don't think I'm the only one. It has happened to me on 2 very different systems - a P4 Northwood and an A64 Newcastle system.

It works for me, however, I do not like the result as much as using the individual settings, e.g., denoise3d chroma 4, luma 3 and time 6 which requires a feq more % of cpu usage.

There is a really interseting thread on scaling algorithms here, very informative:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=460922&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

I'm linking to page 3 because it talks about Lanscoz lobe (not tap) settings, what's best, etc.

Any new versions, new developments?

Anyway, from reading the thread I mentioned above, I have since started using Lanscoz 2 instead of 4, and have moved my Unsharp Mask to after my 2.5x resize. So I now have Levels - Gamma 1.15 and Input @5/255 to compensate for the raised black floor. After that is resize, 2.5x DVD res using Lanscoz 2, Luma Sharpen at .60, and then Unsharp Mask at 30. This is giving me a finer sharpening, since I'm doing it after the resize instead of before.

I'm still waiting for a stable Dscaler audio/video codec to try. Does anyone know how that is progressing?

Dscaler Video codec is perfectly stable for me. We should get 0.5 version this weekend, JohnA's been busy though....

Are the subtitles stable? And the audio codec? I think I was using .3 for some trials, and the subtitles didn't work, and the audio codec caused video skips.

Yes, subtitles are fine.

The audio codecs ok, but it's doesn't get along with the latest reclock beta, so I'm using Intervideo still.

Try it again, video codec at least.

Mark,

I'm not using Reclock at all and probably should since I get an occasional short freeze with Dscaler5. Have you had much improvement with it in the past?

cyberbri,

Subtitles worked fine for me last night even with the two line ones. Audio is very good and I prefer the Dscaler5 audio to the Intervideo on my system.

Charlie

I should clarify that the Dscaler audio codec doesn't get along with the reclock 1.5 betas in analog mode. Reclock 1.4 is fine.

SPDIF is fine with either version.

I use a bit of both analog and SPDIF (dual use PC - analog for when I have a dvd playing in the background on the secondary monitor when browsing the web).

Yes Charles, it works brilliantly. I cannot imagine watching video content without it. Did you mean analog or SPDIF when you say it's better than Intervideo?

Mark

Mark,

Throw the Reclock back in... :)

I meant analog. I havn't done a real evaluation of Dscaler5 audio and probably should not have mentioned that I liked it better because of that but am really impressed anyway. I need to get a better interim sound card before it's worth doing any measurements. Perhaps a Revo 7.1 would be a good affordable choice.

Charlie

I must be doing something incredibly stupid. I have installed, unistalled, reinstalled ffdshow many times. I insert it into my graph and it is being used. I can put the osd on and it shows up so getting it activated is not my problem. Additionally, any of my graphs without ffdshow work fine.

So here are my 2 issues.

1. The output from ffdshow ALWAYS is side boxed on my 16:9 screen. No matter what settings I choose in the resize or if I don't use resize, it always fits a 4:3 aspect perfectly.

2. When I use the resize, it is resizing BUT it only displays the upper left corner of the picture. It is as if my display has changed to 720x480 and it is displaying the upper 720x480 pixels. Only, my display is still displaying 1360x768. I have no changess to the aspect ratio selected.

I do not believe my problem is with the decoders I'm using. I get the exact same results with windvd, powerdvd, nvdvd, sonic and dscaler5.

I feel like I must be missing something very basic because I don't see anyone else complaining of this problem. I hope someone has an idea.

Thanks,
Matt

Resizing changes require a "restart" (rebuild of the graph). Just exit and restart whatever player you're using.

Have you tried the "Aspect Ratio" buttons/slider on the Resize page?

What player software are you using? If it's Zoom Player, you can right-click the screen and change the aspect ratio (leave on Derived or the top one, I think it's 16:9 Stretch to Fit).

Also, what is your desktop resolution? Unless you have Zoom Player set to output a different resolution when in full screen mode, it should be showing up and output in the same resolution as your desktop, no matter what size you resize to. And if you resize while playing a DVD, you have to hit stop and play again. Otherwise, if you increase the size, it will appear zoomed, or not fit the screen if you resize to a smaller size.

And I'm assuming your desktop is outputting at a good resolution and everything there works fine.

I am using the player build into meedio. My desktop resolution is set using powerstrip to 1360x768. The resolution is not changing. I am veryifing on the display.

The exact same graph with ffdshow removed plays in the correct aspect. I insert ffdshow between the decoder and the vmr and it always fits the image to 4:3. Remove ffdshow and it returns to the correct aspect.

Oh, well. I don't know anything about meedio...

You might try the HTPCNews forums as well:
http://htpcnews.com/forums/index.php

Or an official Meedio forum or something.

Originally posted by bonfigleo

The exact same graph with ffdshow removed plays in the correct aspect. I insert ffdshow between the decoder and the vmr and it always fits the image to 4:3. Remove ffdshow and it returns to the correct aspect.

In the ffdshow resize configuration panel, do you have "No aspect ratio correction" selected?

I have tried every one of these settings. They DO change the picture but only within the 4:3 box. Nothing that I do causes any part of the picture to be outside the 4:3 box.

This even happens with the "Blown UP" problem. I see the upper corner of the picture but it still appears within the 4:3 box.

It's probably a Meedio setting, not ffdshow. It sounds like it's only letting you play DVDs within a 4:3 window - maybe with the software itself, or some sort of compatibility/setting when used in conjunction with ffdshow.

Couple of questions - which version of FFDSHOW? Tried other versions?

Also what does the OSD show? Input size? Output size?

I am using the 10-12 version off of source forge (sse2). I have not tried the super old one, my main goal is the resize which I think needs the sse2 optimized stuff (lanczos?)

The osd always says what is set up. It is very strange. It is as if something thinks that I have a 4:3 tv.

I have formated the hard drive and reinstalled everything. Still doing the same thing :(

Thanks,
Matt

Hi Guys,

I have read all the pages here and on the TT forum and I am getting ready to download ffdshow. I have the TT2.06 and was wondering who here is using a 9500LC CRT with HTPC, TT2.0. I was looking for the right FFDShow download to use. I saw Andys listing with the SSE2 but was not sure if that was the one can someone direct me to the correct download. Oh, my video card is a ATI 9800XT 256mb, and a HOLO3D II.

Thanks,
Carlos

The osd always says what is set up.

Cute.

I have not tried the super old one, my main goal is the resize which I think needs the sse2 optimized stuff (lanczos?)

Perhaps you do need the efficiency of SSE2, but don't you think the immediate goal would be to see if the problem is inherent to just one version of FFDSHOW or not? I suspect that it might be a case where your display device is deciding that whatever it is getting after FFDSHOW is done with it) is not 16:9 and forcing things to 4:3.

I still think it is a problem with Meedio and how it is handling ffdshow...

Ok, I have figured it out. I have been using the raw only filter. I thought that I had read somewhere that the advantage to using this was that you didn't have to worry about ffdshow interfering with other things. I swithced to the mpeg-4 one and everything is good.

Yay!!

Now to find the perfect settings :)

Originally posted by cyberbri
Any new versions, new developments?

Anyway, from reading the thread I mentioned above, I have since started using Lanscoz 2 instead of 4, and have moved my Unsharp Mask to after my 2.5x resize. So I now have Levels - Gamma 1.15 and Input @5/255 to compensate for the raised black floor. After that is resize, 2.5x DVD res using Lanscoz 2, Luma Sharpen at .60, and then Unsharp Mask at 30. This is giving me a finer sharpening, since I'm doing it after the resize instead of before.

I'm still waiting for a stable Dscaler audio/video codec to try. Does anyone know how that is progressing?

Cyberbri,

Sorry it took me so long to get to this question but I just got the opportunity to try this all out last night. I have a Samsung DLP monitor just as it appears you do so I was interested to see how the picture your settings give differ from my own. However I remembered reading that Lanzcoz causes a great deal of ringing or over done edge enhancement. When I read the thread you linked to, it was the same one and so of course echoed my memories. I tried it anyway and liked everything you did except the Lanzcoz. I happened to be watching the Manchurian Candidate at the time and could see edge enhancement swimming all over that brown patterned couch in Denzel's apartment when Shaw gets the Vice Presidential nod. I could also see it on the spines of the books in there and some other places. I switched back to bicubic (with all of your other settings in place) and it went away.
So......#1 Why do you use Lanzcoz when the discussion you linked to advises edge enhancement and ringing will appear? Do you see the ringing?
#2 Did you find changing the levels washed out your colors? I'm still trying to get the saturation back right but it was really late. I could not believe changing the levels made such a change in the picture. It seems brighter and blacker at the same time which I would never have thought possible.
#3 I thought your other settings looked great on the DLP. The picture was MUCH sharper although there was a touch more noise than I had before but sharpening will usually do that. At my seating distance it's hardly noticeable. The picture was much more in line with an older movie converted to HD that I see on good ol Comcast. Some scenes looked as good as a newer movie. I watch both through a DVI connection by the way.

Okay,

I downloaded Andys SSE2 version that he provided and it works but have a few questions. I followed some of the steps on the HTPC review of FFDShow and some from here.

as follows:
1. codec ; enable all sources
2. OSD; checked
3.nub-rub(you know what i mean)
4.denoise3
5.resize: 1440X960
6.Lancos3: .49,.49,.49

Had a bad problem on Lancos4 audio skip and frame skips and ran at 100% cpu. so when i switched to lancos3 it and smooth and the cpu ran in the 60%.

I still need some advise on how to get the detail more enhanced. my crt can handle all i can throw at it so looking to get the most out of the picture.

Thanks,
Carlos