Uncheck the OSD. It eats CPU for lunch. Do not use the FFDShow OSD!

Madpoet , Thanks

I'll try unchecking OSD and then Lancos4 again.

I Also notice that once I installed FFDShow my HTCP ran very slow when trying to get onto the internet.

is there better settings (i.e. filter application, sharpining,etc) for 1440x960 for 9500LC CRT??

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
Cyberbri,

Sorry it took me so long to get to this question but I just got the opportunity to try this all out last night. I have a Samsung DLP monitor just as it appears you do so I was interested to see how the picture your settings give differ from my own. However I remembered reading that Lanzcoz causes a great deal of ringing or over done edge enhancement. When I read the thread you linked to, it was the same one and so of course echoed my memories. I tried it anyway and liked everything you did except the Lanzcoz. I happened to be watching the Manchurian Candidate at the time and could see edge enhancement swimming all over that brown patterned couch in Denzel's apartment when Shaw gets the Vice Presidential nod. I could also see it on the spines of the books in there and some other places. I switched back to bicubic (with all of your other settings in place) and it went away.
So......#1 Why do you use Lanzcoz when the discussion you linked to advises edge enhancement and ringing will appear? Do you see the ringing?
#2 Did you find changing the levels washed out your colors? I'm still trying to get the saturation back right but it was really late. I could not believe changing the levels made such a change in the picture. It seems brighter and blacker at the same time which I would never have thought possible.
#3 I thought your other settings looked great on the DLP. The picture was MUCH sharper although there was a touch more noise than I had before but sharpening will usually do that. At my seating distance it's hardly noticeable. The picture was much more in line with an older movie converted to HD that I see on good ol Comcast. Some scenes looked as good as a newer movie. I watch both through a DVI connection by the way.

Hey, it's nice to see a fellow DLP'er. :)

First of all, how far are you sitting from your display (eyes to screen)? I am(was-we are in the process of moving) at 8 1/2 feet to 9' away from a 43" screen. If I moved up to about 7', I know I can see more of the smaller/finer things. So that may be something. I tried to set my sharpening in resize and afterwards to get good sharpness but no ringing (although different movies differ). I put sharpening after resize instead of before to get the sharpening at a finer level, rather than having a strength of 8 or so before the resize.

And I went from Lanscoz 4 to Lanscoz 2, which should be fine. In the past I never liked how Bicubic looked, although I haven't tried it recently. I don't see ringing, none that goes away if I turn all the resize, etc. off. I remember horrible rining on the intro credits on Stuck On You (video on top of film), but other than that, I don't notice any "halos" on anything. In fact, I know Chronicles of Riddick has a great picture/transfer, but watching some scenes with and without ffdshow on, I got a lot more detail out of the picture. The starry skies were a lot sharper, textures were much sharper everywhere, etc. And the original Matrix (not the new one in the box set) is very soft, but these ffdshow settings make it look perfectly(?) sharp. Alright, now that I think about it, there is a little bit of ringing if you look closely in something like Matrix Reloaded (a disc I use a lot to test/tweak), with all the metal textures in the ships and Zion. But other than that, it's great. I can't wait to sit down and watch through LOTR-ROTK-EE (we went to parents' for Christmas, and are in the middle of moving now).

#2 - By increasing gamma and raising the levels output, I was able to get more shadow detail (which is lost if there is ambient light in the room, especially during the day), without making "black" be "grey" (dots). I don't think it did anything adverse to the colors - definitely didn't "wash them out." It just gave me more light in the low end of the spectrum for shadow detail, and then made sure black is shown as black (level - 5)

Agreed on the DLP'ers. I usually "search this thread" for the words DLP and Samsung and stuff like that to find the more relevant posts. It's a completely different beast. Like Turbos vs. Superchargers vs. All motor cars. All can be very good but require different approaches to tuning.

#1 Hmmm, I wonder if it was ringing or shimmering that I saw. Either way the idea for me is to get it to look as real as I can (yes I know we are know where near that level but that is the goal) and those slightly moving edges were snapping me back from the fantasy. I sit exactly 11ft from a 56 inch screen. When you get up real close you can't believe its the same TV but back there it's a thing of beauty.

#2 is Exactly what I noticed. More shadow detail and which looked better at night and during the day. I have been watching all of my movies over again because I like your set up so much and they look very good to me. I think the change in levels (especially the increase in white) lightened the colors? It was not completely washed out or anything but I noticed. I have not gotten to re-cal with the AVIA saturation screen so I eyeballed it for the moment. Increasing saturation in the ZP controls definitely brought it back closer to what I am used to seeing. I like the vibrant "pop" effect from my colors and I am very sensitive to a change in them. Personal taste I guess.

Either way I love the way you have it set up. Pretty simple, not using 20 filters or anything like that so my modest CPU (2.4 P4) can take it. If you come to any additional conclusions that you feel improve it, please PM me and we will test with 2 pairs of DLP eyes! I am using WinDVD and Zoomplayer along with the FFDshow.

I installed zoomplayer pro and registered it. I then installed nvidia video codec and registered them .The player worked fine .Next i installed powerdvd 6 and registered video.It also played fine.I was able to switch from one to the other.Everything worked fine.As soon as i installed ffdshow latest version i could not get the nvidia audio or video to work.I get
{NVIDIA VIDEO DECODER}.Video Output--->
[FFDShow Video Processor].In

Not all filters can connet properly.If the filter listed above
is an "Additional Filter",try unchecking it in the options dialog.

Additional Information:
80040207:There is no common media type between these pins.

john

You have to set Raw video to "all supported" in the Codecs section of ffdshow.

I do have that checked and i am still able to use powerdvd video i only get that error when i use nvidia codec.

john

Originally posted by HT-Obsession
...

It'll be a while before I'm back to tweaking again, since we're in the middle of a move - but I am hoping to finally sit down and watch LOTR-ROTK-EE this weekend.

Anyway, let me just explain how I calibrated my set real quick.
I used www.displaycalibration.com and the Phillips Pattern Test Generator ( http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ ) to make sure my DLP was reading and displaying colors and greyscale from my video card correctly (to rule out any video card/TV calibration issues). Then I used the THX screens on Monsters Inc, plus some test/reference discs (I know, I know, I need to get AVIA or DVE or something...) to check the settings. It looked fine, except fine shadow detail is lost if you have any lights on. I had actually had Levels Output to 16-235, but found I didn't need to do this after I set my brightness/contrast levels in the Service Menu by using the Phillips program and that website. But I wanted more shadow detail, so I tried raising Gamma, realizing that it was on a curve, and not just raising brightness. But at 1.12-1.15, my blacks were then dark grey, with specs visible from about 3-4'. So I got a gamma level I was comfortable with (1.12-1.14), and then raised the Levels Input until black became black again. Just to check, I tried turning off this Levels filter page, and the blacks are the same, except I get better shadow detail.


Anyway, my test/reference disks are:
Matrix Reloaded - Chapter 3 "Upgrades" - looking for detail in Neo's coat (buttons, can see jacket, rather than black shape) after he comes upstairs and gets handed the headset / Chapter 4, Neb entering docks (shadow details on ship and in corridor, not too white/blooming in VR set & still see grey details in white clothes/objects - see my gallery for a couple of shots of this scene)

Harry Potter & Chamber of Secrets - Scene in cave with spider, checking for details in background, can see details in giant spider's face, etc., not too dark/muddy, etc.

I have a Sony 1271Q PJ and currently using ZP4.03, FFdshow-20040607a, Dscaler5, and Powerstrip. Is anyone out there have the same model PJ? I just want to know what all your settings are to see if I can make some improvements. At the moment, I'm very happy with the PQ.

These are my current settings:

AMD XP 2600+ Barton OC to 2.2Ghz
ATI Radeon 9500
Powerstrip-960x540
FFdshow- lancoz 4, resize to 1920x1440, Sharpening-asharp .5 and using overlay.
The WMR9 made the picture really clear but the color is very soft. Not sure why and the only reason I can think of is my video card cannot process it.

Allen,

I think if you look at people's settings, most Radeon users are using overlay. I have a 9800 pro and a p4 3.2 and expeince unacceptable results using vmr9.

I would suggest trying cyberbri's gama/black level trick. I am using it and it is a big imporovement. Just raise the gama on a dark scene until you get the detail that you want and then raise the input black level until the blacks are black again.

For me, this trick has added more to the picture than any of the resize/sharpening stuff.

Originally posted by bonfigleo
I think if you look at people's settings, most Radeon users are using overlay. I have a 9800 pro and a p4 3.2 and expeince unacceptable results using vmr9.
Well, I'm not, and I'm not the only one :)
VMR9 provides better colors, better black details, and a more cinema-like image, once it is configured correctly.
I have a Radeon 9700 Pro MP-1 on a Sony 1292QMG CRT projector.

HT-Obsession,

I was "resting" last night from the move, and watched Collateral (great movie, great picture).

After that I was playing around with the ffdshow settings, and I saw what you said about washing out the colors a bit. I tried "right half of screen only" with different Gamma / Input black settings. I don't know what it is, but my picture looks fine without this, at least at night. I think I left a Gamma 1.10 and Input 3-255 so I could turn it on during the day if we watch something with sunlight coming in the room. Turning it on does bring out more detail, but yeah, I saw some of the colors weren't as dark/saturated. Maybe it's just the DVDs/scenes I was checking. But I think I'll save that trick for daytime DVD-viewing. :)

I also turned my Lanscoz 2 resize to 2x DVD res (after reading that going over that may cause banding issues), and dropped Luma sharpen to 0.40 and the Unsharp Mask after that to about 12. I turned on Noise @ strength 1 before resize, though, to force YUY2->YV12 conversion.

But it's constant tweaking. I'm trying to stay away from trying to tinker with Asharp instead of Unsharp Mask, or any other stuff, since I already have a great picture anyway. I need to spend more time watching movies now, instead of just tweaking incessantly. :)

I am sorry to ask for help, but I am about to give up!

I am using ZP, the latest Nvidia decoders and nvida drivers 71.24

All works fine, until I add ffdshow to ZP. All I have selected is OSD and RAW set to all.

Then, when I press play, all I get is a black screen and ZP hangs.

I have tried the latest Oct sse2 version and the one before that, both have this problem.
The PC is a fresh install too.

Thanks

Simon.

Originally posted by simon
I am sorry to ask for help, but I am about to give up!

I am using ZP, the latest Nvidia decoders and nvida drivers 71.24

All works fine, until I add ffdshow to ZP. All I have selected is OSD and RAW set to all.

Then, when I press play, all I get is a black screen and ZP hangs.

I have tried the latest Oct sse2 version and the one before that, both have this problem.
The PC is a fresh install too.

Thanks

Simon.

Simone did you install the patch to ZP ( registry additions), or edit ZP in registry to"
AllowAllRenderers(dword) with a value of 1 yet?
If not ya may wanna try this, there are 2 patches, 1 each for NTSC and Pal,.

http://htpcnews.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=16434

GL

m

hey muzz.... cool your heels!!!.... this wonderous patch your spreading around has nothing to do with zoomplayer.... if you'd read the .reg files that your referring to, you'd see that they are specifically for the sonic mpeg decoders, which almost nobody uses these days...

:mad:

damn it, I thought that was going to be my answer!

Originally posted by jimwhite
hey muzz.... cool your heels!!!.... this wonderous patch your spreading around has nothing to do with zoomplayer.... if you'd read the .reg files that your referring to, you'd see that they are specifically for the sonic mpeg decoders, which almost nobody uses these days...

:mad:

O really?

Thats funny, because I could NOT get ZP to play no matter what I tried without it.
And I tried everything else.
Tell Gwyneth and the folks over at HTPCNEWS that it worked for that they're wrong also.

So tell me again what they are for.

Edit: BTW maybe thats what they were initially used for, but it works now, and it didn't before.

Thanks for listening

m

Hi All,

Sorry to bug everyone with a topic thats been done to death, but im stuck, I cant find the solution and its really irritating me :)

I am unable to get windvd6 working with zp (pro 4.10b2), ffdshow-20040616_SSE2.exe, reclock 1.4, intervideo windvd audio decoder in either VMR9 or overlay mode (zp).

I have added the abstract DMO filter above ffdshow, and modified the hkey_current-user, software, intervideo, dvd6, pasuterisation (sp), intensity setting to 0.

I am running anydvd and have an unencrypted, de-macrovisioned ISO image (DVD Movie) loaded for testing.

I get audio, no video.

I have no problems running elecard or dscaler5 with this configuration (minus abstract filter).

If i remove ffdshow and leave only the abstract filter, I also get audio but no video (which I believe is the source of my issues)..

Any assistence (pointers to links etc) would be very helpful as this is driving me nuts :-)

PS: Ive just downloaded ffdshow-20050105 and will see if this makes any difference.

Cheers,
Bitey

Originally posted by Mr.Bitey

PS: Ive just downloaded ffdshow-20050105 and will see if this makes any difference.

Cheers,
Bitey

Where can you download this version? ffdshow-20050105

Simon,

Here are the things I have done that have caused issues like this. These are "Dumb" things that the pro's might not ahve thought of. You might be a pro to so don't take offence if this is not your problem.

1. If you are using overlay, you cannot have the graphic open in graph edit and play at the same time

2. If you are using overlay, you have to have the "Video Renderer" hooked up to the output from the "OverLay Mixer"

3. If you are using vmr9 and you have converted to the 12 colorspace, you must use the Line 21 decoder 2 not one or you will get another ffdshow just to convert the colorspace and mess thigs up.

Hope this helps.

Thanks.
It started to work with the new version of ffdshow, which can be got here:
http://ebola.gamersrevolt.it/celticdruid/

Is there any truth to this post from the FFDSHOW Settings sticky?


Just a heads up:

For those using Lanczos4 -

Keep your scaling settings at 2X. Using certain values for height can (will) cause significant banding issues. 960 or 720 work OK, most others do not.

Vern


What about with Lanczos 2? I've backed off from a parameter of 4 to 2, and have gone from 2.5x resize to 2x resize. Can I go back to 2.5x resize without banding issues?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Originally posted by simon
Thanks.
It started to work with the new version of ffdshow, which can be got here:
http://ebola.gamersrevolt.it/celticdruid/

Do you know who's version that is, as in who updated it? I know Andy's versions are available here: http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/
I'm perfectly happy with the version I have now, and the only reason I would update is to get a cleaner/better resize filter - unless there's something else really great. That's all I do, except for a little sharpening.

From what I can tell, there is some trouble with ffdshow and soem of the new codecs (nero?). Even newer versions can be found here:

http://celticdruid.no-ip.com/xvid/ffdshow/

I don't know that any of this applies to us. I have not waded through enough of the posts to know for sure but it appears these versions are aimed and fixing crashes with specific codecs.

Originally posted by cyberbri
HT-Obsession,

I was "resting" last night from the move, and watched Collateral (great movie, great picture).........


Exactly! I was just thinking how close I must be getting to just enjoying the films. Have you actually "seen" the banding. I was shocked that my PC would do the 2.5 resize but I can't see how it would do anything but add information to the picture. I certainly did not feel like my picture got worse (I was using 2x before I changed to your settings) and banding is something I am pretty good at catching (ask Comcast lol). I'm sure that reducing your sharpening effects will reduce the minor noise I was finding with your setup. Unfortunately I too have been tweaking after my wife bumped the Contrast slider in Zoomplayer color controls ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP! I have no idea what it was before but when I eyeballed it I got a setting that gave an amazing amount of shadow detail in the film i was watching (Episode II) but I found later at the expense of burned high intensity whites with no detail when Kenobi goes to the cloner planet. I backed it off but it looks not as good and the AVIA setting looks really off to me now. I may have to start over with the color controls. I was in there trying to reset my saturation. I'm glad you noticed it as well to prove to myself that I am not crazy. Are you saying you turned the levels filter off, or you changed the settings to Gamma 1.10 and 3-255 input? Maybe we should take this to PM if it's bothering other members :o

Thanks again for your other post referencing exactly how you set up your set. I was looking for something like that to use on my PC monitor nearly a year ago! :D

HT-Obsession,

Here's a quick reply while I'm at work...

Once I got my setup set up at our new place (did it the first night we had everything in), I watched a movie the next night (Collateral). After it was over, I tinkered around with Matrix Reloaded, Chapter 3 (Upgrades), to check my levels, etc. in the new environment. When I tried it with and without the Levels filter (Levels Input 5-155, Gamma at about 1.14), I noticed I still had the shadow detail in the jacket (could see the buttons) with it turned off, and turning it on did more to de-saturate the greens in the walls than (and the light in the shot of Agent Smith right before that) than to give me more shadow detail. I don't know if it was the material I was testing with last time, or something different now, but I think I like it better with Levels turned off now. I'm just leaving it at about 3-255 and Gamma of about 1.10 to turn on during the day if we watch something like Harry Potter-Azkaban or something and can't control the ambient light.

I know I need to get DVE or Avia or something, but I use the THX screens on Monsters Inc, along with different "reference discs" to check by eye (steaming rat). With my HTPC, I can use the Phillips Pattern Generator and the www.displaycalibration.com website anyway, so my set is calibrated to what my PC is outputting anyway. And knowing that with Overaly I don't need to mess with the levels/gamma either is reassuring. I just don't want to mess with one setting to slightly "fix" something, only to make something worse (like cause banding, or exacerbate noise).

I tried using denoise many, many times, with different versions of ffdshow. At first it made skin textures crawl. And later on it created lines/patterns in single-color backgrounds (ratings screen, background walls, skies, etc.) - so I just turned it off. It made more problems than it caused. And messing with the levels/gamma even made some of the noise/blocking worse in the monotone green background around Neo's hand in that scene in Matrix Reloaded (Chapter 3), etc. So I'm going with less-is-more.

I'll have to go back to 2.5x resize (on Lanscoz 2) and watch for banding. Some is in the actual DVD (Finding Nemo), so if I see anything problematic, I'll try changing the resize and disabling ffdshow to see how much the filters are introduction and how much is there to begin with.

ugh, Finding Nemo. I banged my head on many a wall trying to get that one right. I trashed so many set top dvd players when I first got this DLP display because of the banding and macroblocking on that disc. It looks great in HD on cable though which ticks me off even more :rolleyes:

i like your trick of a normal low light setting and a daytime setting. I have windows behind my seating position and on a bright summer afternoon I make it a point not to do any critical viewing.

Sorry I ruined the levels filter for you

Did Finding Nemo make you want to get an HTPC? ;)

I tried some more Levels settings last night after watching Star Wars Ep V. Nothing seemed to give more "shadow detail" in the low end without changing the rest of the picture. I even tried just boosting Levels Output from 0 to 3 only. Everything seemed to affect almost the rest of the spectrum. I guess I'll give it a rest after a few nights of testing and just turn on Levels during the day if I need to.

And you didn't ruin the Levels filter for me, HT-Obsession. I was playing around with it myself, testing to make sure the picture looks good. I found that I didn't need to do anything once we moved - don't know if it was my imagination or bad tweaking before, or if there really is a difference...

Forgive me if this question has been asked already, but after some searching through this enormous thread, I didn't find the answer I was looking for.

I currently have the 20040709_SSE2 version from http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/, and things work great. My only gripe is an occassion audio dropout with DTS. My setup is:

P4 2.8C
512 Meg RAM
M-Audio AP2496
ATU 9600 (non-pro)
TT 2.06 w/WMR9
Denoise3d 0, 0, 5 HQ
Resize 2x Lancos4 0, 0
YV12 Output
CPU runs about 80% for film DVDs, Video 90+%, but works without studder.

There is an 20040801a_SSE2 preview, a 20041012, and now I see a Jan 2005 SSE2 release available (I check this thread pretty regularly). I decided to see if I could get a bit more CPU headroom with the newer versions to solve an occassional audio dropout when using DTS.

I uninstalled 0709 and installed the Jan 2005 version. With the settings above, I had 100% CPU and unacceptable studder. Scratch that version.

Uninstalled Jan 2005 and installed 20040801a. Setup denoise3d FAST 5 and the same resize settings, but TT hangs when I press play. Unistall and reinstall the same version, and I get the same hang.

I decided not to try 20041012 for fear that I had already experimented too much.

Now, I'm back to 0709.

I saw a mention of some extra uninstall steps before using 0801. Are there some? This version seems to be one that a lot of people are using.

Am I wasting my time? Will I see a significant CPU % difference with the 0801 or 1012 versions?

Thanks!

I have the same speed computer and ram as you, but my CPU usage is nowhere near that high. But then I checked and saw that you're using VMR9. Have you tried Overlay? I think VMR does the VMR plus an overlay on top of that, so that could be what's using up all your CPU.


And are the skips only with DTS? Have you tried the same movie, or other movies, with DD?

I have HT on. CPU shows more like 38%, but one CPU is up between 75-80%. I tried using overlay, and the CPU is a bit lower (70%), but my pq is noticeably better with VMR9 -- especially contrast range on my DLP fp. With overlay, I could never get the contrast range to cover as much area using the DVE grayscale patterns. If I did, it screwed up other things. My final thumbs up for VMR9 was when my wife asked what I did because the picture looked better. Months of tweeking overlay with DVE, and I never got that response.

The dropouts are only with DTS. Last night, my wife and I watched The Pianist (good movie, but don't expect to be in a good mood when it's over). With DD5.1, there wasn't a single dropout. With DTS on the same disk, the dropouts were consistent enough that I switched back to DD5.1 within 15 minutes or so. I've seen the same behavior on several disks. Generally, I prefer the DTS audio track, but I've learned to live without it due to the improvements in picture I get with my HTPC.

One more thing, my higher CPU is probably due to denoise3d vs. gradual denoise (or no denoise). I used denoise3d because I recall Andy mentioning that the 0709 version works better if you had denoise in front of resize.

If I have time, I will try an experiment or two with different denoise filters.

Not that it applies to your DTS issue, but you might read these posts (since you're using an ATI card), FYI:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4201638&highlight=VMR+crush#post4201638

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4198711&highlight=VMR+crush#post4198711

But I wonder if the sound issue could be resolved with Reclock (most people love it, although it causes audio dropouts for me), or some fix with an audio driver or renderer.

Thanks, it was actually a few of Owen's posts that got me to try VMR9. I tried dozens of combinations with overlay (pj settings, TT settings, ffdshow, etc.). With VMR9, everything is at the default except TT saturation = -47 and hue = -1. With that, all the DVE test patterns were better than I've ever seen with overlay.

Regarding reclock, I tried it a few months again, and it actually caused more dropouts for me.

What I need to do tonight is to experiment more with ffdshow off. I want to be sure it's ffdshow that is causing the DTS issue. I've had the issue for so long, the results of my last test are mixed up with other audio issues I was having pre-TT2.

For those of you who may not be aware, TT1.5 and M-Audio do not always get along well. Several people got it to work ok, but I had major issues (grinding noises, dropouts, hangs, etc.). A simple switch to a Chaintech card fixed that, but I was still left with the DTS dropouts. When TT2 came out, I switched back to the M-Audio card because I preferred the sound (My wife helped with a blind test).

An update....

Since I use TT2's NVPP, I can skip an ffdshow step before resize. NVPP outputs YV12, so you don't need something in ffdshow to do the color conversion before getting to resize (resize is much more efficient if it doesn't have to change color spaces). Without denoise3d, my CPU drops down to around 50%. Using several facial closeup scenes in the The Fifth Element, it was really hard to tell the difference between denoise3d on and off. Can anyone recommend a scene where I might notice a big difference? Certainly, ffdshow lanncoz4 resize is much more noticeable.

Unfortunately, my wife came by requesting to watch a movie before I had a chance to try a DTS movie with denoise3d off. Hopefully, I can try that tonight.

If I downloaded Andys222 ffdshow 0709 sse2 do I also have to download the denoise decoder/filters. when I select denoise in ffdshow and look for the filter its blank doesn't show any at all.

Thanks,

Do you mean descaler, not denoise?

Originally posted by godavego
An update....

Since I use TT2's NVPP, I can skip an ffdshow step before resize. NVPP outputs YV12, so you don't need something in ffdshow to do the color conversion before getting to resize (resize is much more efficient if it doesn't have to change color spaces). Without denoise3d, my CPU drops down to around 50%. Using several facial closeup scenes in the The Fifth Element, it was really hard to tell the difference between denoise3d on and off. Can anyone recommend a scene where I might notice a big difference? Certainly, ffdshow lanncoz4 resize is much more noticeable.

Unfortunately, my wife came by requesting to watch a movie before I had a chance to try a DTS movie with denoise3d off. Hopefully, I can try that tonight.

I don't know of any specific scenes to check, but maybe scenes 2-3 movies that represent the kind of movies you watch. Check backgrounds, low-light scenes, faces, etc. If you have a projector and a big screen, you might need denoise. But if you're on a ws TV, you might be getting rid of fine detail as well.

I know that I thought I had denoise at an okay setting, and tried to watch one of the Indiana Jones movies. On my DLP TV, it made the facial skin textures float/crawl like a bad SD signal. I personally don't use denoise for that reason. I actually turned off the DNR feature on my DLP as well, since that would probably be getting rid of detail as well. My screen is only 43", viewing from about 8'. People watching a 10' screen from 12' away have different needs, of course.

cyberbri,

yes i meant that(lol) descaler. sorry

or even denoise filter. whichever sound right. I am having a brain cramp.

hello,

I'm using:
P4 2,4Ghz
1 gig of RAM
Leadtek 6600 GT
TT 2.06
latest 71.24 drivers
VMR9
FFdshow 20040709_SSE2
Lancoz4 @ 1280x720
asharp -0.14,16,4
YV12
nothing else used in ffdshow!

I have no studders, no tearing no audio drop-outs with DD and DTS but
CPU usage varies between 80% and 90%. Average around 85%
Temperature is about 50,51 degrees. Outside temp 40

Without ffdshow just using VMR9 and DXVA on + High Quality +TT2.06
dvd playback 30% usage , temperature approx. 40 degrees
WMVHD 720p usage at approx 50%-60%, temp the same

Here comes the odd question:
I want to use ffdshow but is it safe to use a PC with the usage and temperature I have or am I risking to damage my system ? I'm not overclocking so I guess I'm safe right ?

Are there any general suggestions how high CPU usage can be and how warm it can get before risking a damage.


Thanks,

Anthony

Is that 51c with your CPU load that high? Then that's not a problem at all.

Tony, you might have trouble with video material (30 fps) when running FFDShow. If you're at 80-90% on film material, video material will likely push it to 90-100% (~20% more frames to process). Consider stepping down to Lanzcos 2 or omitting asharp for video.

Either that, or move the sharpening to before resize and back off the levels, and/or use the sharpening function w/in the resize algorithm.

Originally posted by Carey P
Thanks for this tip! Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you need both these lines in the FFDShow AviSynth script space provided:

LoadPlugin("F:\BT601ToBT709\BT601ToBT709.dll")
BT601ToBT709()

using appropriate path for the first line. In your picture, you only show the second line by itself and this confuses FFDShow. Now I get a color change if switching AviSynth on and off. I see less red with this dll loaded, if that's correct. Does that mean I will get even more green? I'm not sure if that's what I want, but I'll test it on my LCD projector. I'm using the Radeon 9500Pro with Cat 4.6 at 1368x768 display res (at or greater for Resize). Using TheaterTek with Overlay only.

Not sure why I'm getting this error but in TT2.5 and FFDShow I have
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\BT601ToBT709.dll")
BT601ToBT709()
......and the error I get when TT is launched is...........
Evaluate: Unrecongnized Exception !
(ffdshow_filter_avisynth_script, line1)

I have "Add ffdshow video source" checked.

Originally posted by Carey P
Thanks for this tip! Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you need both these lines in the FFDShow AviSynth script space provided:

LoadPlugin("F:\BT601ToBT709\BT601ToBT709.dll")
BT601ToBT709()

using appropriate path for the first line. In your picture, you only show the second line by itself and this confuses FFDShow. Now I get a color change if switching AviSynth on and off. I see less red with this dll loaded, if that's correct. Does that mean I will get even more green? I'm not sure if that's what I want, but I'll test it on my LCD projector. I'm using the Radeon 9500Pro with Cat 4.6 at 1368x768 display res (at or greater for Resize). Using TheaterTek with Overlay only.

Not sure why I'm getting this error but in TT2.5 and FFDShow I have
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\BT601ToBT709.dll")
BT601ToBT709()
......and the error I get when TT is launched is...........
Evaluate: Unrecongnized Exception !
(ffdshow_filter_avisynth_script, line1)

I have "Add ffdshow video source" checked.

cranking my CPU for a movie or 2 last month here (35 deg C temps with my A/C out of action) 70degC CPU temps haha ;)

thekochs:
I presume You use ffdshow 20041012, which throws exactly such an exception. Use ffdshow 20040709 by Andy, where Avisynth works flawlessly.

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions. MY CPU has 50 degrees temperature when usage is at 80-90%.
I watch mostly film based content and haven't tried video based stuff yet.
I'll compare the results using NVPP with and without ffdshow (using Lancoz2 and perhaps asharp) or just using my VMR9 DXVA settings and not using ffdshow at all.

Upgrading the CPU to 3,2Ghz would be another option and would give me the possibility to increase the resize.

Thanks again.

Anthony

I'm still having no luck getting Andy's 20040801a_SSE2 Preview version working. All other versions I try (0709, 1012, etc.) work to varying degress, but 0801a locks up TT2 immediately with a black screen. I have to use task manager to kill it. Sometimes, TT2 seems to get a frame or two through, or a hear a snippet of audio, but that's about it.

I've been experimenting with Denoise3d on/off, and so far I've seen a few cases where I like it on better, nothing where I didn't like it on. Unfortunately, it's a major CPU hog. Without it, I run more like 40-45%. Based on several more reads of this forum, it looks like AndyIEG's 0801a version of Denoise3d uses almost no CPU, I'm interested in figuring out what is up with 0801a and my system.

Any suggestions? I verified that raw video is selected, and I always uninstall fully between installs.

My setup again:
P4 2.8C
512 Meg RAM
M-Audio AP2496
ATU 9600 (non-pro)
TT 2.06 w/VMR9
ffdshow 20040709_SSE2 (Andy version)
1. Denoise3d 0, 1, 5 HQ
2. Resize 2x Lancos4 0, 0
3. YV12 Output
CPU runs about 80%+ for film DVDs, 40% or so with Denoise3d off.

To get back to my original problem, I'm trying to clear up CPU to prevent audio dropouts with DTS.

godavego, you MUST first uninstall all other FFDShow version, then install the preview version. Unlike other normal versions that you can just install on top of each other.

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by godavego
I'm still having no luck getting Andy's 20040801a_SSE2 Preview version working. All other versions I try (0709, 1012, etc.) work to varying degress, but 0801a locks up TT2 immediately with a black screen. I have run 801a_SSE2 Preview for some time without problem. P4 3.15C, 500MHz, XP SP2, TT2.06, M-Audio 24/96. Be sure that if you select FAST box for D3D that you have it before the Resize (or was it after?), otherwise 100% cpu and it could lock things up. Otherwise, it works fine. but if not checked it uses more CPU. Having said that - I am now using the 0709 version for stability.

In any case, you should not see that much difference between D3D or no D3D on a 2.8C P4. Something else is going on.

As far as audio dropouts on DTS. I have seen this when using the wrong audio driver. I use the 48a driver and it works solid with XP SP2. I have also found audio dropouts especially on DTS that occur if my wireless LAN board is active. So I always have it deactivated when in Home Theatre mode. Good luck.

I made a little discovery last night while experimenting with resize values, so maybe this will help someone else.

I was experimenting with different resize values the other night, and settled on 1760 by 1600 (Lanscoz 2, Luma Sharpen at 1.00). I thought I'd get some more detail out by increasing the vertical value, instead of just going 2.5x resize or 1920x1080. It looked great on Star Wars Ep 6 the whole way through, and a few other DVDs I just checked a few scenes on.

But last night, I tested some more DVDs out of boredom/OCD. In Harry Potter 2, after Harry stabs the book, I noticed the background noise was forming vertical lines/patterns. I couldn't figure this out. I also noticed it in Shrek 2, in the upper right corner of the picture in the barn the night it's raining and Shrek and Fiona are about to transform. I turned off the resize, and the pattern all but went away. So I tried different resize settings, and was able to get rid of the distracting pattern at a resize of 2000x1600. Note that I'm only running Lanscoz 2 (not 4), with Luma Sharp @ 1.00, and a Noise - strength 1 before that to force the conversion to YV12. This is on a 2.8GHz P4 w/ 512MB and an nVidia GeForce 5200 Ultra card, over DVI to a 43" Samsung DLP.

That'll do me for now until I get DSL in my new place and can try out the Avisynth LimitedSharpen ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=469464 ), which looks very promising, and can even do resize within that program.

For the preview you also need to be VERY careful with colorspaces. Resize requires YV12 and I believe denoise requires YUV2 so if you're using it with Nvidia's decoders, you can't have NVPP in the path before denoise but you can remove denoise and have NVPP feed resize directly.

Li On, I always uninstall the previous version before installing any version of ffdshow. I even go as far as to make sure that the \Program Files\ffdshow directory is cleaned out (some versions leave a DLL around).

Carey P, should I not see that much difference with denoise3d on/off with the 0801a version or with the 0709 version? My understanding is that I shouldn't see much CPU difference with the 0801a version, but I should see a big difference in CPU with the 0709 version. That's why I want the 0801a version.

As far as the driver version goes, I'm using the 48a version as well. Last night, I turned off a bunch of services (DHCP, system restore, etc.). I haven't seen a dropout yet, but that sometimes would happen anyway. Tonight, I will have some more extended viewing to see if no denoise3d helps out DTS.

pcgeek, I bet that's it! I do use Nvidia's VPP before denoise3d, and I know VPP outputs YV12. Is this issue specific to the 0801a preview version? This configuration (NVPP -> denoise3d -> resize) works fine with every other version of ffdshow that I tried.

I'll try removing NVPP tonight to see if that's it. However, NVPP does some nice work, so I'm wondering if I should just accept that 0801a is not in my future.

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions! I will post final results after this weekend.

Originally posted by godavego
Carey P, should I not see that much difference with denoise3d on/off with the 0801a version or with the 0709 version? My understanding is that I shouldn't see much CPU difference with the 0801a version, but I should see a big difference in CPU with the 0709 version. That's why I want the 0801a version....
I'll try removing NVPP tonight to see if that's it. However, NVPP does some nice work, so I'm wondering if I should just accept that 0801a is not in my future.I just checked and I get about 70% vs. 50% using the 0709 version. Don't remember what the difference was with 0801a.

You don't need to turn off NVPP, just turn on something like Levels before the denoise with some minimum value (other than default) set. That will convert to YUY2. However, if this is your problem I would have expected you to see a Green screen not a black screen.

You also don't need to use NVPP. You can just use the registry hack.

If I feed resize something other than YV12 I see the green screen but if I feed denoise something other than YUY2 I get black or hang (can't remember). Yes, it is specific to the preview which only included the highly optimized code for the single colorspace path that most people were using at the time.

Originally posted by cyberbri


That'll do me for now until I get DSL in my new place and can try out the Avisynth LimitedSharpen ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=469464 ), which looks very promising, and can even do resize within that program.

Wow, that Avisynth looks very promising! Did you notice the color issue before the others did? I saw it after the second pair of pics. Looks like a super pain to install though and the guy who got it working certainly can't be expected to support it on so many set ups. It's a project though. I'll try your new set up tonight. What I really need to do is update my version of ffdshow, I may PM you on that one.

If you read further, you'll see that the color issue is due to the VMR or something (running in Overlay without, then VMR with), so that shouldn't be a problem. There's a lot to read in that thread, but it looks like once I get the tools installed, I can copy the program code, add in a conversion to YV12, a Lanscoz2 resize, change a few things, and hopefully get it to work.

The main reason I'm excited about it is that it is a very nice sharpening filter can be turned up higher without creating the bad edges and stuff of the others. The asharp and everything could work for me, but it would take a long time to figure out the best threshold, strength, etc., and I've spent so much time tweaking and getting a simple setup, I don't want to spend the time. So hopefully I'll be able to pull off this LimitedSharpen pretty painlessly and get a little more detail out.

Oh certainly. I read until I found the way to correct the issue. Only way I would know if it was something I would even try. There are several ways around it in the thread.

I also read the gory details about the filter b4 posting. Picture surfing tells very little. I'm all for less artifacts so as I said it looks promising.

Anyone compared AVISynth's Limited Sharpen (default) to what I think most recommend is one of the other best settings:
Lanczos4 resize with denoise3d and no chroma sharpening and output of YV12.

I'd be interested in knowing your results, especially if you use them with DScaler5.

Hi All,

Is it just me or does everyone notice credits do not scroll smoothly? using dscaler,ffdshow,vmr9,zp ??

If i use a dxva decoder (such as the intervideo sasem for hdtv) through zoom player (as I do for my recorded .TP / .TS HD playback) and overlay without ffdshow i get very smooth motion and smooth scrolling credits (its easiest to see in the credits).. but when i use dscaler/ffdshow and vmr9 credits in particular do not scroll nicely and are barely readable, it looks like a frame order problem but only effects the motion :) if you get what I mean..

Any ideas? or is this just how it is?? - it is not the disc as they play smooth as silk on a standalone dvd player..

Im using a p4 3.6ghz, 9800pro, ati cat 4.12, winxp pro, zp 4.10b2, dscaler 5 alpha 5, andy's sse2 ffdshow..

Cheers,
Bitey

Sounds like a deinterlacing problem of some sort.

I did see what you saw once when watching the ROTK:EE credits...it looked horrible! But, it went away when I restarted ZP. Quite puzzlling.

Mr.Bitey,

I have almost an identical setup to you and I notice the same thing. I am convinced that it has something to do with the Radeon and the VMR9. Make the simplest graph you can. DVD Navigator to DSCaler audio and video to directshow sound and VMR9.

I bet you will see the same thing. I notice it in other long pans also. As soon as you switch to overlay it will be gone. I don't believe it has anyting to do with cpu horsepower as I see it when the cpu load is very low.

Hi Guys,

I have a problem, I was having some bad banding so i decided to download new drivers for my ATI 9800XT (i.e.4.12 version) and it said its recommended to download windows service pack 2 so i did that first then the ati driver download. Now I lost the powerstrip settings and I cannot get 1440X960, the res on ati goes from 1360-to-1600.

Is there any ATI driver versoin that already offers 1440 X 960 (i.e.4.11v,4.10,or the 4.09version)??

What should I do??:confused:

Thanks,
Carlos

Does anyone know if any further development for the FAST option in FFDshow has been done? It really works great for me but that version of FFDshow is a bit quircky. THanks

Originally posted by THECLOSER
Is there any ATI driver versoin that already offers 1440 X 960 (i.e.4.11v,4.10,or the 4.09version)??


I don't think any of the ATI drivers offered 1440x960 as a standard rez. I always have to redefine it after a driver upgrade.

If you ghosted your setup before you upgraded you should be able to do the following:

1. Ghost your SP2/4.12 setup.
2. Restore your old setup.
3. Copy all your PS timing info to a file somewhere.
4. Restore you SP2 setup and re-define the PS settings using the saved data.

jvincent,

Thanks for the info but, I was a moron and did not ghost my setting. I do thou have old powerstrip settings in a folder. How could I apply them to the new upgrade of SP2/4.12 setup??

Thanks

You old powerstip settings are probably sitting in the "User" part of the custom res menu - it's down the bottom, there's a tab.

Originally posted by bonfigleo
Mr.Bitey,

I have almost an identical setup to you and I notice the same thing. I am convinced that it has something to do with the Radeon and the VMR9. Make the simplest graph you can. DVD Navigator to DSCaler audio and video to directshow sound and VMR9.

I bet you will see the same thing. I notice it in other long pans also. As soon as you switch to overlay it will be gone. I don't believe it has anyting to do with cpu horsepower as I see it when the cpu load is very low.

Im glad to hear that someone else is seeing the same thing!

I can verify it does not occur with the powerdvd6 decoder (in overlay or vmr9) (without ffdshow) - I couldnt get powerdvd6 working with ffdshow and zp last night for some reason (reclock errors, and if I remove reclock - wmplayer.exe windows error)..

Selecting vmr9 or overlay for me doesnt make any difference to the 'jerky' credits..

Im not familiar with how to make custom graphs :( - i will have a search on how to do so...

Cheers,
Bitey

I'm having a problem playing AVIA with Zoom Player and ffdshow. I'm wondering if anyone has experienced this or could assist me?

I have a Medion P4, 3 GHz, Hyperthreading on, 512 MB and NVIDEA GeForce PCX 5300.

I'm using Zoom Player Pro version 4.03. Ffdshow is version 20041012.

I have done the DMO_V Abstract tweak and have disabled it's effect in the Registry.

Using WinDVD 6 filters. Movies play well. Settings are Sharpen @ 18 Unsharp Mask; Blur and NR @ 18 Gradual DeNoise; Resize and Aspect @ 1440 x 960; Lanczos @ 4, Luma and Chroma sharpen both at 1.

Movies will play flawlessly.

When Avia is set to go, after pushing the play button, the screen goes black for a second and then reverts to the default Zoom Player graphic as if I haven't done a thing.

Is there a setting that I've missed? I've been able to get AVIA to play with Zoom Player and ffdshow without a problem until I did the DMO_V Abstract tweak yesterday. Is this a coincidence perhaps?

Any help would be appreciated. I've done a search and found nothing.

Or should I just accept this situation as is and use AVIA in WinDVD 6 to calibrate the video filter there, hopefully correctly calibrating Zoom Player in the process if I set Zoom Player's color controls to the middle default position?

Is Zoom Player confused and looking for a movie rather than a disc with all kinds of Titles and Chapters and Test Screens?

Thanks anyone!

Wayne

hmm, I am using the Windvd6 filters and ZP, FFDSHOW (20040709 version I think) and the AVIA disc plays fine for me. You do have to turn "repeat play" off in the disc otherwise it will skip to the next test after several seconds. Other than that it should work fine. I know this is the normal idiot IT solution but did you reboot? Never have I solved so many problems with a simple restart until I started using HTPC apps. I would not rely on calibrating through WinDVD because all of the FFDSHOW filtering would be bypassed and it seems to me that the processing affects things like color saturation. tint and settings like that which you are trying to calibrate. Just my .02

Sometimes if DVDs don't play, or get stuck when they try to load, I turn off the setting in Zoom Player for "remember media position on stop" or whatever it is that remembers where the playback was at when you press the Stop button. Try turning that off and then reload the DVD. If it works, then turn it back on.

For my HTPC, I calibrated my DLP to match my computer using the Phillips Pattern Generator ( http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ ) and www.displaycalibration.com -- and once I did so, all my levels were correct when playing DVDs (Overlay - I know VMR changes levels) when I checked test patterns, so I no longer had to use any levels/gamma adjustments in the playback software.

If you need to check with AVIA afterwards, though, that's still a good idea.

Thanks for your help folks! I got AVIA to work but I don't understand exactly what was going on. On Settings/Toggles/On CD/DVD Insert: I had it set to Do Nothing so I changed it to Play DVD Only.

Then I went to DVD/DVD Settings/Auto Save-Load Disc Position On Stop and unchecked that.

AVIA then played like it should have all along. I then went back and put both those settings back to where they had been out of curiosity and AVIA still played fine so what I did must have done something but I don't understand why AVIA now plays with pre and post setting changes. Weird!

Aren't computers fun?

Wayne

Hi Guys,

I am still having problems with my HTPC. this is my problem, I read about upgrading the ATI cards drivers to the new 4.12 so I dicided to do the upgrade, when I went to download the drivers they recommended that the windows service pack 2 be installed so I did. I then proceeded to download the ATI drivers. There is were the problems start.

I restarted the pc and the setting of course were gone so I went to see if I could locate my powerstrip setting and nothing. I did find the folder I had stored all my powerstrip settings. I was wondering if I could use those settings?? and how would I apply them to work with my ATI card rez.

I want to be able to use 1440X960 as my display rez.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

THECLOSER,

Been there many times - You can cut&paste your custom timings from the original pstrip.ini file into the new pstrip.ini file, then 'add' a custom res (you will find your pasted timing sitting there)..

from memory (cant remember exactly) its a 1 line string of numbers under the [custom timings] section in your pstrip.ini file - you should see it pretty easily.. just copy the lines for the timings you want..

Cheers,
Bitey

Bitey,

Thank you!!!

I'll try that tonight.

Carlos

mystery, it's possible that the DVD Navigator Filter chosen in ZoomPlayer is not working properly with Avia. In the Player Options screen (in Advanced Mode), click on the DVD tab and in the DVD Setup settings, you will see a DVD navigator drop down box you can use. I usually have mine set to Microsoft DVD Navigator. Maybe you can experiment with those settings...

Originally posted by Mark_A_W
You old powerstip settings are probably sitting in the "User" part of the custom res menu - it's down the bottom, there's a tab.

Take a look at the pstrip.bak....it is the repvious version of your INI. Just save off the current pstrip.ini, copy the .bak and reboot windows. You can open these INIs with text editor and see if your old rez is there.

Also, Powerstrip has a FAQ post on this subject about restoring after driver upgrade.

Thanks Max,

I have the setting at Microsoft DVD Navigator. Avia is still working fine now. Must have been one or both of the setting changes I made.

Bitey , thekoshs,

Thanks, I ended up having to download the new version of powerstrip 3.57 and enter my settings . So thanks for the info.

I do have a question : I was going to erase the windows service pack 2 file but it saying I am still running service pack 1 and could not find the pk2 file in my system in my windows file/programs . pretty weird.

And I still have a problem with my display, when I download I thought windows service pk 2 and then the new ATI 4.12V drivers the display angled on the screen and shrunk on the sides. I was able to get the side fixed with the new pstrp programs but the angle issue is still there . Its angled up 5 inches upwords on the left hand side of the screen and even with the screen on the bottom right hand. I tried to use the display adjustments in the ATI setting and would not go lower.

Any Ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Carlos

Question: The ODS displays CPU usage at 100%. However, CPU usage on task manager is ~75%. Which one is correct?

Question: ODS displays frame rate at ~21fps. I am using Denoise and bitlinear scaling to 1280x720. How can I up the frame rate to 30fps? My setup is 2.53Ghz Celeron D (can't overclock with ****** MB), 1GB PC3200, latest Zoomplayer & fddshow(SSE2).

BTW. Where is the documentation for ffdshow?

Thanks guys

Don't go by the OSD inside ffdshow. Use the Task Manager for CPU usage, and if you want to know FPS, use Reclock for your audio renderer and look at the info panel during playback. I think regular DVDs should be about 24fps, with video sources at 30fps.

Hey guys ;)

What do you make of this? Installer has been changed a little bit, several new features have been added. Installed just fine on my PC at work. Note that this is not an SSE optimized version. Hopefully, we will see those very soon.

Here's the link: http://www.free-codecs.com/FFDShow_download.htm

Download speed is extremely slow as it seems to be coming from some Italian server.

An update to my DTS issue posted a page or two back:

First, I was not able to get 0801a_SSE2_preview to work reliably, so I dropped it and went back to 0709_SSE2 (both Andy's versions).

With the 0709 version, I turned Denoise3d off and stuck with only 2x lan4 resize (no sharpen), and I was able to get through two DTS movies without a single audio dropout. The CPU ran around 40-50%. Unfortunately, I also disabled the DHCP service, so I'm not sure if the issue was entirely related to Denoise3d. It doesn't matter because I like the picture better without Denoise3d -- at least I haven't seen anything where it makes it better. I've only seen no real change or changes I didn't like (blocky clouds, skin tones, etc.).

Thanks everyone for you help and suggestions.

Now, let's see if I can avoid tweaking for a while and actually enjoy a few movies without analyzing every scene.

Originally posted by THECLOSER
Bitey , thekoshs,

Thanks, I ended up having to download the new version of powerstrip 3.57 and enter my settings . So thanks for the info.

I do have a question : I was going to erase the windows service pack 2 file but it saying I am still running service pack 1 and could not find the pk2 file in my system in my windows file/programs . pretty weird.


Windows XP SP2 (which I assume is what you describe) doesnt live under program files, from memory it lives under windows\servicepackfiles but thats the windows filestore, SP2 itself (the part you can install) is usually distributed as a single EXE file (around 240mb).. If your system is saying SP1 then perhaps your loading of SP2 failed? Check the control panel, add/remove programs and see if SP2 is listed as being installed in there.


And I still have a problem with my display, when I download I thought windows service pk 2 and then the new ATI 4.12V drivers the display angled on the screen and shrunk on the sides. I was able to get the side fixed with the new pstrp programs but the angle issue is still there . Its angled up 5 inches upwords on the left hand side of the screen and even with the screen on the bottom right hand. I tried to use the display adjustments in the ATI setting and would not go lower.

Any Ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Carlos

That definatly sounds very uncool and a setting is definatly incorrect somewhere. Unplug your TV and plug in a computer monitor and see whats going on - you might damage your TV as your timings seem incorrect. Load one of the standard pstrip settings (that work on your tv) until you get this resolved - dont leave it as is.. I would also recommend posting a new thread rearding your pstrip issues as one of the powerstrip experts will probably be able to help and may not be looking in here..

Cheers,
Bitey

Guys,

I announce a brand spanking new version of our beloved FFDSHOW and no one cares? What's up with that? :D Anyhow, here's some mirrors in case the link above is too slow:

http://www.tabyk.ru/ex-disk/soft/mm/ffdshow-20050117.exe
http://ebola.gamersrevolt.it/celticdruid/ffdshow/ffdshow-20050117.exe
http://rapidshare.de/files-en/371342/49/ffdshow-20050117.exe
http://rapidshare.de/files-en/371342/123/ffdshow-20050117.exe
http://www.iti.uni-stuttgart.de/~bergmats/video_mirror/videotools/ffdshow-20050117.exe
http://dla.pchome.net/multimedia/mpeg4/encoder/ffdshow-20050117.exe

It seems like there is only one version for all CPUs now, as you can check or uncheck the supported SIMD instructions from with the app. It also has a new deinterlacing tab. Not sure what else has changed as there is no changelog available. Enjoy!

It is hard to get excited when you don't know what to get excited about. Who made this version and why? It seems that a lot of people aren't even using the latest version from the "official" page. Personally, I have much better performance with the August version.

The little bit of poking around I have done seems to indicate that these newer versions have primarily focused on fixing bugs with files generated by newer encoders. Since most of are not reencodeing, much of this probably does not apply to us.

I think we are looking at resize and denoise performance. Has either of these been addressed in this build? What is the source of this build. I assume it is a branch off of the 2002 code. In which case, it does not contain the optimizations that Andy put in.

Well, I for one got very excited when I saw the new build, hehe. Of course it would be great if we heard from Andy or Milan regarding this. I also use ffdshow for resizing only, but hey, any new version of any software is more than welcome, if you ask me. Heck, without new versions nothing would get fixed and nothing would get broken, and we wouldn't have anything new to play with :D.

For those of us using one of Andy's builds there hasn't been a whole lot to get excited about since 8/1/2004. None of the new SSE2 builds appear to have the hand-coded assembly he did because the performance is nowhere NEAR that of the preview build. A new version with his optimizations or some HyperThreading support (anything performance related) would generate excitement but not version bumps that don't address those areas.

Hard to get excited about it when there are no hardware optimized versions of the new ones. They are of no use to most people.

Sorry to rain on your parade...it's just that most of us need the SSE or SSE2 versions. :)

Oh Andy, whyhave you deserted us ;).

I think this is the version I'm using:
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=274595

It's not on Andy's page, though. Does anyone know the difference between it and the August version?

Once I get my DLS modem delivered at my new place, I'll have to try the August version. The notes for this 10-12 version say that Avisynth doesn't work, and I'm wanting to try the LimitedSharpen+resize scripts with that.

That one has SSE2 optimized but it's still nowhere near as fast for resize as the 20040801_preview that Andy did with the hand-optimized SSE2 assembly.

The one on Andy's site is not just a bit faster. It is so much faster that you will at first assume that all he did was comment out the code that actaully does anything.

I assume that the one on the sourceforge site just has the compiler options tweeked. I beleive the versions on Andy's site have actaully had code replaced with more efficient code.

I agree with bonfigleo...Andy's 20040801preview version is "substantially" faster than any other FFDShow version ever created.

We need him back for more improvements!!!!

where has Andy gone ?? does anyone have his email?? haven't seen him post in a while.

I think he is working furiously creating a 64 bit version:p (wishing thinking)

Originally posted by bonfigleo
It is hard to get excited when you don't know what to get excited about. Who made this version and why? It seems that a lot of people aren't even using the latest version from the "official" page. Personally, I have much better performance with the August version.

The little bit of poking around I have done seems to indicate that these newer versions have primarily focused on fixing bugs with files generated by newer encoders. Since most of are not reencodeing, much of this probably does not apply to us.

I think we are looking at resize and denoise performance. Has either of these been addressed in this build? What is the source of this build. I assume it is a branch off of the 2002 code. In which case, it does not contain the optimizations that Andy put in.

Boy, I can second that...without knowing what has changed it is really hrd to understand the deltas from last June/July 04 to this latest. Is there any doc or threads on release notes ?

Originally posted by thekochs
Not sure why I'm getting this error but in TT2.5 and FFDShow I have
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\BT601ToBT709.dll")
BT601ToBT709()
......and the error I get when TT is launched is...........
Evaluate: Unrecongnized Exception !
(ffdshow_filter_avisynth_script, line1)

I have "Add ffdshow video source" checked.

Any AVISynth guru who has theirs working can you check the above and see if I've missed something ? Appreciate any help.

Thanks !

e268,
I wish you were right?? I would not mind that at all!!!

Hey, has anyone tried the AviSynth 2.5 that was posted a few pages back with a CRT & ffdshow? what are your thoughts??

Thanks:)

Need advise,,

I still have a problem with banding. I am running TT2.5.6 and ffdshow thru VRM9 and YUV12 . my setup is avisynth, resize 1920X1080, luma sharp at 1.20 and chroma sharp at 0.0, lancos4. I still get red streeks across the screen. cpu runs around 65.

thanks

I have trial versions powerDVD6 and winDVD6, and nvidia decoder. I wanted to try out dolby headphone which all of these 3 products have by itself. But, when I run it thru zp, ffdshow, I just got the regular headphone or 2 channel stuff, no dolby headphone options. Has anyone tried? There is no sound coming out using nvidia. I heard good things about nvidia dolby headphone. For those of you running any of these 3 decoders, will you please take a look under audio config in zp to see if you can activate dolby headphone? Thx

man no answer on my post from above on the banding issue???

how about where do I download anydvd file to use the filter with my ATI card?? can someone help me here.

thanks

e268, I don't think you can get dolby headphones because ZP is not a Dolby-licensed player. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. :(

You would need to use MCE and, I think, WMP10 to get dolby headphones working. Oh, and TheaterTek 2 will do it too.

THECLOSER, I don't know about the banding issue as I have an NVIDIA card. It's possible that the NVIDIA DVD Decoder and/or NVPP (software mode since you are using an ATI card) may have the banding problem that may have been corrected with a later release. It may also be a color conversion or gamma issue. Did you change the Levels in FFDShow? That could also introduce some banding. It's really all voodoo to me. :(

I use Zoomplayer with registered PowerDVD 5 decoders, and I've been using Dolby Headphone for months.

I just have PowerDVD set as my audio decoder in the DVD menu; ffdshow shouldn't have anything to do with it.

flanger

Originally posted by e268
I have trial versions powerDVD6 and winDVD6, and nvidia decoder. I wanted to try out dolby headphone which all of these 3 products have by itself. But, when I run it thru zp, ffdshow, I just got the regular headphone or 2 channel stuff, no dolby headphone options. Has anyone tried? There is no sound coming out using nvidia. I heard good things about nvidia dolby headphone. For those of you running any of these 3 decoders, will you please take a look under audio config in zp to see if you can activate dolby headphone? Thx

Ah, I thought you were trying to use the Dolby feature from the NVIDIA decoders...they won't work with non-Dolby licensed players.

maxleung,

thanks for the reply but , no i have not changed gamma or anything elso other than to select order of filters. this is the order of filters i have now, video -support all changed from just YUV12, sharpen .22,, gradual denoise .30,, denoise3 .49,.49,.49 checked HQ box,, Resize 1920X1440 , Lancos 4, luma 120, chroma 120 everythind else is default.

Athllon 64 FX53 CPU with ATI 9800XT downloaded the new 4.12 ATI drivers, CPU running in the 84%. still get the red banding.

anyone has suggestions that might help,,

oh, do i download Anydvd just like a regular player?

Okay, I'm going absolutely crazy with FFDShow.
I've tried everything that I've read (and 169 pages is a lot of reading), but I cannot get FFDShow working with ZoomPlayer properly.
I get what looks like 5 vertical columns of the picture (running from my HD of a DVD) which is banded green horizontally, it doesn't matter if I have any of the filters selected or not, as soon as I add the FFDShow Video Processor into ZomPlayer advanced Options>DVD>Additional Filters I get this problem. If I remove the Filter I get normal playback.

Here's my setup
AMD Sempron 3100+
DFI LanParty Nforce3 250GB
Nvidia Geforce FX5500 with 256mb 128 bit Ram
Connected via DVI @1280x768 to a Sharp 34 inch flat panel LCD

I'm running ZoomPlayer Pro 4.10b1
FFDShow 20041012-SSE2

I have the FFDShow set to Codecs >Raw video >All supported
And my Video Decoder is NVidia NVDVD (Which came with my video card)
Oh and I'm also using VRM9 Windowed, but the problem exists no matter what rendering mode I use.

Operating System is Windows XP Professional with SP2 DX9.0c

Please help!!!

Thanks

I am using a 6600GT and Meedio is my DVD player. I have installed the nvdvd decoders .67 and checked the box in meedio dvd player config to use ffdshow and its working. In "DVD settings" there is a "Video Renderer" option that has 4 options. Default,Use Overlay, use vmr7,vmr9.

If I use anything other then use default or Overlay I get terrible studdering in playback. I did set in nvdvd decoders to "Prefer vmr9' but I assume that if I dont specify the rederer in the dvd player then nvdvd decoders cant use it???


Anyone have a suggestion as to what the settings should be and what I could be doing wrong.

My system is a 3.06 ghz with 1gb ram with HT enabled


**EDIT**
I took FFDshow out of the loop and I can specify VMR9 as renderer in Meedio dvd player (No studders) and when I play a dvd the nvdvd decoder see's it. With "Default" setting it says "unknown rederer".

Bighead,

For the Sempron CPU's SSE2 support is available only with the Socket 754 version, you have Socket A maybe?

Well, I downloaded the trial NVidia NVDVD 3+ Video/audio processors and it works! I guess there was something with the old NVDVD processor that had an issue with FFDShow.

No worries with SSE2, It's a 3100+ which is a Socket 754 only chip.

I'd still be interested in hearing if anyone has had success with the old NVDVD video processor and FFDShow though.

The Closer,

What version of ffdshow are you running?

Have you tried viewing without ffdshow for the banding? Have you tried turning off the resize and leaving the other settings on? Have you tried just resize, without the others? Have you tried turning just one off at a time and leaving the rest on? Have you tried Lanscoz 2 instead of 4? See if you can narrow down where the problem is coming from.

BigHead,

I have an Nvidia 5200 Ultra, but my system works fine. I use Overlay for the video renderer (VMR uses too much CPU), and I use Intervideo WinDVD 6 codecs. I have trouble with the Nvidia video codec with my current setup. Try downloading the trial of WinDVD6 and see if that works. If you end up going with that codec instead, you'll need to do the DMO_V Abstract filter fix:

In Zoom Player -> DVD Settings -> Additional Filters:
Select DMO_V Abstract, move it to above ffdshow so it is started before ffdshow
Manual Save and close options

Press START -> RUN -> type "regedit"
Go to HKEY_CURRENT_USER -> Software -> Intervideo -> DVD6 -> Pasteurization -> in right window, right-click "Intensity," select "modify" and change value to "0"

Close regedit, open ZP, and go for it.

cyberbri,

yes to all I have tried all of the options except the resize, I will try to uncheck resize and see what happens.

ffdshow Andys SSE2 version for Athlon 64. (07012004)

What do you think?

I know that most people seem to use the August 2nd preview version because of its highly-optimized Lanscoz 2-3-4 resize algorithms.

I have heard that certain resive values (ie., over 2x DVD res) for Lanscoz 4 may result in banding. So I'd definitely experiment with the resize values.

I'm currently at 2000x1600. At 1600x1600 I got noticeable patterns in noise in dark areas, so I tried changing it and was able to get rid of them. I know that movies like Finding Nemo have banding issues anyway, except with the best equipment, so if I notice anything "bad," I try turning off everything and seeing what it looks like with just my WinDVD codec and no ffdshow.

Originally posted by bonfigleo
The one on Andy's site is not just a bit faster. It is so much faster that you will at first assume that all he did was comment out the code that actaully does anything.

I assume that the one on the sourceforge site just has the compiler options tweeked. I beleive the versions on Andy's site have actaully had code replaced with more efficient code.

please remind me how I can tell I am using andy's version post installation?

is it available in the filter UI?

There should be an info page which shows the date/version of the build you are using. If you go by the date, you should be able to see if it's off of Andy's site or from Sourceforge, etc.

cyberbri,

I am using 1920X1440 in resize, I was using 1440X960 and was still getting the banding issue. so i guess its back to scratch and try again. I did try the NVPP codec instead of ffdshow with theatertek but still get the banding. so i am thinking it might be in the ATI drivers. what do you think??

What DVD are you getting banding on? Is it every film with a scene that could potentiall have it? Or is it just one in particular?

for some reason i don't get it on windvd5 and intervideo but i get it on TheaterTek ?? any thoughts on that.

should i buy Cineplayer and try downloading that.???

I'd say no, don't pay for the Sonic(?) codecs. They're not very good anyway. Stay with WinDVD 6, or even the free DScaler 5.

Originally posted by cyberbri
There should be an info page which shows the date/version of the build you are using. If you go by the date, you should be able to see if it's off of Andy's site or from Sourceforge, etc.

yeah on the info page there is no indication that it is Andy's hand tweaked version...

This is Andy's page, so if it's from here (same date), it's from Andy:
http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/

cyberbri,

okay will do. I have the dscaler5 but have not openned the file. what are your thoughts with zoom player?? since I'll will try this tonight whichever is best withthe ATI cards and drivers.

oh , to your other question,, the banding shows on every scene that has lots of red or skin tones. the darker or bluish scenes don't show as much if any banding. at least to my eyes.

Originally posted by THECLOSER
cyberbri,

okay will do. I have the dscaler5 but have not openned the file. what are your thoughts with zoom player?? since I'll will try this tonight whichever is best withthe ATI cards and drivers.

oh , to your other question,, the banding shows on every scene that has lots of red or skin tones. the darker or bluish scenes don't show as much if any banding. at least to my eyes.


For me, I got more banding in blue areas (Miramax(?) logo at beginnning of movies, water in Finding Nemo, skies, etc.), at least that's what it seemed like.


I have a HLN4365W (Samsung DLP), and was wondering about my gamma setting. I had it on 1, although I don't know if it came like that or started off at 4.

I had looked on the official HLN Tweaks thread before, but I know that some sets/models/sizes have different "ideal" gamma settings. So I was playing around tweaking my set a little more last night, for lack of time to actually watch a movie, and decided to try changing the gamma setting.

I was viewing through my HTPC over DVI, using the Phillips Pattern Generator for greyscale patterns. I changed it from Gamma 1 to the other settings in the Service Menu, and found that a Gamma of 0 gave better greys and better gradation. However, the 5% grey went black, so I adjusted this by boosting the three color offsets a few notches each to get some noise in the 5% grey section, and made sure I didn't introduce any unwanted color pushes at any grey % (one notch too far can put blue/purple at 80% & 85%, for example). So I finished up there, backed out of the Service Menu, set my Dynamic (reverts to Dynamic and factory default when you enter the Service Menu, so all adjustments are seen through Dynamic settings) setting back to Custom (Contrast (white) - 100, Brightness (black) - 50, Sharpness - 35, Color - 45~50), checked the color temp settings, and popped in Finding Nemo, known for banding and macroblocking issues, which I saw/tested just last week as well.

With Finding Nemo, much of my banding issues disappeared, and were only slightly noticeable if I really looked for them. My main scene was at about 30 seconds into the film(?), before the barracuda. There is the anemone near the middle, with water to the upper right. Before there was noticeable banding and macroblocking. But last night, most was gone and the improvement was very noticeable. I even noticed the banding from my desktop image was gone (factory?, with orange-red bumpy sand dunes with dark blue sky).

So if you are having banding issues and can't nail it down, etc., you might try making sure the display device itself is at the proper gamma/ brightness/ contrast/ color settings as well.

FWIW

cyberbri,

thanks for the idea's. I will work on this tonight, I didn't get time to play last night since I got out of the office late.

by the way are you using zomm player??

Yeah, 4.03 - haven't updated.
My settings are on the second page of this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447500

Well, I'm finally switching to DScaler 5. I was holding off until the subtitle issue was resolved, and it looks like it is.

I haven't done any good testing between DScaler and WinDVD 6, but the few sections I did A/B between codecs, for some unexplainable reason (maybe bias from hearing the good feedback about it), DScaler had the edge.

I also did a lot of testing with Avisynth and LimitedSharpen. But after some testing, I found that the amount of sharpening was just too much, especially since this is so CPU-intensive it has to come before Resize.

I found that I like my 2000x1600 Lanscoz 4 w/ 1.00 Luma Sharp better than Limited Sharpen with a smaller resize. I guess the picture is just cleaner, because the sharpening isn't emphasizing the noise in the picture, or doing the sharpening at the smaller size. I tried to figure out how to change the strength within the script, but nothing seemed to do anything except the one in the ffdshow call lines. But even at a strength of 2 (as opposed to 20 or 40), it was so CPU-heavy I couldn't run it after a smaller resize.

I switched over to the DScaler 5 audio codec as well. Is there really a difference in audio codecs, though, if they are passing through the data out SPDIF to a receiver? I mean, can one codec give better channel separation, give a better sound field, etc.?

Another update:

I was previously using Overlay, since VMR seemed to A) desaturate and wash out the picture, and B) CPU/speed issues.

But I read this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494606 and decided to change to VMR to pass Blacker-than-black, and just turn down the brightness setting on my TV to compensate.This means that I'm not crushing blacks/whites with Overlay, passing all of the information (1-15 and 236-255) through to the TV, without squishing the spectrum overall, and all I have to do to make sure the black (16) is black is turn the brightness down. --> By doing so, I get much better shadow detail, banding virtually gone, better gradations, etc.

And as far as the speed issues go, I went from a 2000x1600 resize to 1760x1520, in Lanscoz 4 with .90 Luma sharp. This is coming from DScaler 5, outputting in YV12 straight to resize only. In one test, it was actually faster (showed no tearing) when I output in YUY2 from ffdshow, so I'm doing that as well.

So I'm very happy about that, along with the fact that Comcast just got HD in my area today (had it at the last residence until end of December, moved, waiting for the rebuild). And they even just added Fox to the HD lineup! So I'm going to go pick up an HD PVR ($10 a month rental, includes HD channel package). I'm very excited about this, to say the least. Sorry for going OT there, but I'm very excited to get back to HD.

Cyberbri,

I seem to remember going through the VMR9 and Levels issue with you some time back in this thread, but you obviously did not believe me at the time.
It’s taken you a while, but I’m glad to see you finally figured out why VMR9 works :D

Sorry, it’s a bit of a low blow but…...


Owen
_____________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Sorry. I guess it takes a little while to sink in. You kind of have to work around and see it for yourself (on the computer). I guess I had a bunch of other stuff to work through before getting that "advanced" with they why/how of VMR working, and Overaly being a bad choice. ;)

THECLOSER,
The NVDVD decoder is known to have banding problems, although many people don’t seem to notice.
The problem has been with NVDVD since version 3.0 and as of a few weeks ago, still had still not been fixed.


I highly recommend the Dscaler 5 decoder. It can output YV12 color space for faster FFDShow processing, does not suffer from posterization and offers the cleanest image available IMHO. It is also fast, so you will have more CPU power for FFDShow processing.
You will need a program like AnyDVD to do the decryption, as the decoder does not do it. There is a free program that does the same thing, but I can’t remember what it is called.
Good luck.

Owen

Owen, Thanks,
I will try that. now Anydvd also has a free download version would that do the trick?

Also do I have to specify where I want the Dscaler to go or would just download to the proper place once I download?

DScaler is an audio/video codec. Inside Zoom Player's DVD settings, you have to specifiy the codecs to use as DScaler, etc. in order to play any DVD.

I downloaded DScaler5 into my ffdshow , and when i open ffdshow i can see DScaler filter is what it reads but when i click on the dscaler filter it show nothing in the file???

I do not have zoom player using Theatertek2.06.

You will need a program like AnyDVD to do the decryption, as the decoder does not do it. There is a free program that does the same thing, but I can’t remember what it is called.

It is called DVD43Free (http://www.dvd43.com/). I use it with Dscaler 0.0.5 and it is excellent.

Originally posted by THECLOSER
I downloaded DScaler5 into my ffdshow , and when i open ffdshow i can see DScaler filter is what it reads but when i click on the dscaler filter it show nothing in the file???

I do not have zoom player using Theatertek2.06.

DScaler 5 is an audio/video codec set that you assign inside Zoom Player's DVD options page (or Theater Tek, I guess - if it lets you change the audio/video codec you want to use). There are also DScaler filters that work from inside ffdshow itself, like a deinterlacer, etc., but that's different from DScaler 5.

Originally posted by Owen
Cyberbri,

I seem to remember going through the VMR9 and Levels issue with you some time back in this thread, but you obviously did not believe me at the time.
It’s taken you a while, but I’m glad to see you finally figured out why VMR9 works :D

Sorry, it’s a bit of a low blow but…...


Owen



Just going back and checking, I actually do get BTB through Overlay. If I turn the brightness up, I can see the btb. I must have been imaging things (I wrote that I checked BTB on Overlay, but I was remembering back, and obviously remembering wrong). But at least it was a good lesson about BTB.


Observations w/ THX Dropshadow screen on Monsters Inc. (note that BTB is present on all settings below) - Using DScaler 5 codec:

Overlay w/ Brightness @ 54 => VMR9 w/ Brightness @ 40
VMR9 w/ TV Brightness @ 55 => Overlay w/ Brightness @ 69
(values are give or take 1-3)

HOWEVER
Overlay w/ ffdshow Levels Output 16/235 and Brightness @ 40 = Overlay w/ Brightness @ 54 = VMR9 w/ TV Brightness @ 40

Basically, VMR looks the same as Overlay with Levels Output at 16/235, and to get to the same black/shadow level with Overlay using no Levels adjustments, +14 on display Brightness needed -- this is on the one THX dropshadow screen.

Then, I noticed that the first THX setup screen, the bloom pattern with 8 bright white boxes, looked the same between VMR9 and Overlay w/ Levels Output @ 16/235 -- except there was a GREEN tint when using VMR9 (I've heard about this before).

Since it looks like with my combination of DScaler 5 codec, nVidia 5200 GeForce Ultra card, etc., I can still get BTB, etc. with Overlay, I think I'll stick with it, at least until they get a Renderless VMR9 working that doesn't kill the CPU. Overlay gets a lot more stable framerate, and I can resize higher with it (up to 2000x2000). So I'm back to where I was, with another lesson learned...

Originally posted by cyberbri
Just going back and checking, I actually do get BTB through Overlay. If I turn the brightness up, I can see the btb. I must have been imaging things (I wrote that I checked BTB on Overlay, but I was remembering back, and obviously remembering wrong). But at least it was a good lesson about BTB.


Observations w/ THX Dropshadow screen on Monsters Inc. (note that BTB is present on all settings below) - Using DScaler 5 codec:

Overlay w/ Brightness @ 54 => VMR9 w/ Brightness @ 40
VMR9 w/ TV Brightness @ 55 => Overlay w/ Brightness @ 69
(values are give or take 1-3)

HOWEVER
Overlay w/ ffdshow Levels Output 16/235 and Brightness @ 40 = Overlay w/ Brightness @ 54 = VMR9 w/ TV Brightness @ 40

Basically, VMR looks the same as Overlay with Levels Output at 16/235, and to get to the same black/shadow level with Overlay using no Levels adjustments, +14 on display Brightness needed -- this is on the one THX dropshadow screen.

Then, I noticed that the first THX setup screen, the bloom pattern with 8 bright white boxes, looked the same between VMR9 and Overlay w/ Levels Output @ 16/235 -- except there was a GREEN tint when using VMR9 (I've heard about this before).

Since it looks like with my combination of DScaler 5 codec, nVidia 5200 GeForce Ultra card, etc., I can still get BTB, etc. with Overlay, I think I'll stick with it, at least until they get a Renderless VMR9 working that doesn't kill the CPU. Overlay gets a lot more stable framerate, and I can resize higher with it (up to 2000x2000). So I'm back to where I was, with another lesson learned...

dude just update your computer...the differences on a PDP are day and night between overlay and VMR9 playback...what i call a deeper image...overlay has that illusion more light...but i find the image to be "thin" in overall depth...even at dramtic resizes...my hardware is 533FSB 2.8P4 with a 1gig of RDRAM...utlilizing andy's optimized build of ffdshow...

and the do have a VMR9 renderless mode now:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494775

All of this talk over the past months about VMR9 vs. overlay has been intriguing to me. I just upgraded to TheaterTek 2.0 and now have the ability to test VMR9 for the first time. I've really been looking forward to trying it because so many people seem happier with the VMR9 output.

But I have to agree with cyberbri, at least for now. I have been trying to get VMR9 to look good for several days now, and I can't make it look better than overlay. I have the following HTPC setup:

P4 3.0GHz (overclocked to 3.3 GHz), 800MHz FSB, 512 MB PC3200 CL2 RAM
Windows XP Pro
Sapphire Radeon 9200 w/ Catalyst 4.09 driver
TheaterTek 2.05
ffdshow 20041012_sse2
Champion 42" plasma (852x480)
Desktop resolution 1280x720 (Powerstrip)

Perhaps it's the video card, or the fact that my display is only EDTV, not HDTV resolution. ???

When I switch to VMR9, I definitely get too much red. But I can fix that by adjusting the red gamma down using the ffdshow picture properties filter. After the adjustment, I get a pretty neutral gray over the full brightness range. But after calibration using DVE, the picture is actually worse with VMR9 than with overlay. I use the following filter/setting combos for the two scenarios.

Overlay:
Picture Properties - Red gamma 0.95
Resize - 1280x720, Lanczos4, L1.2, C0
dNoise3d - 1.0, 1.0, 5, HQ
Output YV12

VMR9
Picture Properties - Red gamma 0.9, Saturation 48
dNoise3d - 0.5, 0.5, 5, HQ
Resize 1280x720, Lanczos4, L1.2, C0
Output YV12

I also ran overlay with the dNoise3D filter before resize for more of an apples-to-apples comparison. Overlay still a lot better. With overlay I get a nice deep black with relatively little noise in near-black images. With VMR9, despite correct calibration with the pluge in DVE, black level is higher and much noisier.

Now I admit ahead of time that my observations may all be due to limitations of my video card and/or my plasma display. Detail in dark scenes is limited due to the characteristics of the plasma.

BTW, I have tested using Levels adjustments in overlay (the "16-235" debate) and it clearly degrades PQ. My display seems to process the image correctly without the levels adjustment.

So, sorry for the long detailed message, my question is really simple:

Is the poor VMR9 image that I'm seeing due to hardware limitations, or should I try some different settings? Suggestions, please!

Thanks,
Phil

P.S. For the record, I am very satisfied with the result I get using overlay. But since we are all in search of the "perfect" picture, I was hoping to see an improvement with VMR9.

What are you using to adjust brightness and contrast? Anything in ffdshow (like you are doing with gamma) should be the last resort. You'd be a LOT better off adjusting the video card controls directly (as well as controls on the plasma). The process I usually use is to get the display device to a point where it looks good for all of the other inputs (if there are any) using the display's controls, then use the video card controls on the PC to calibrate for DVD's.

pcgeek,

I have done a similar procedure to what you described.

1. Calibrate the display using the display adjustments. I did this using DVE and a stand-alone DVD player over component inputs. I figured this is the best way to get an overall decent image for, as you describe, "all other inputs", including HDTV over Comcast cable (also fed over component inputs).

2. Use DVE on the HTPC in TheaterTek w/ ffdshow. I first had to get rid of the red cast. Only way I could find to do this was using the independent gamma control for red in Picture Properties. I then adjust the brightness based upon DVE pluge using the luma offset in Picture Properties. Based upon your comment, I should try doing this using the video card controls instead. I then adjust the saturation in Picture Properties.

So, what I gather is that I need to change my strategy for brightness and contrast adjustments and use the video driver controls instead? I can try this and judge the result.

If my display had separate adjustments for each of the inputs, I wouldn't have this problem.

Thanks for the suggestion,
Phil

Don't do anything in Picture Properties (including saturation) if you have a beter place that you can do it. I actually have a Nvidia card which gives an incredible amount of control over brightness, saturation, gamma and saturation directly in the video drivers. You can also use the controls in your player app (zoom or TT anyway) which control the video card as well. Anything done in software before it gets to the video card's buffers works in 8-bit per color space and any stretching/compressing is going to give you an inconsistant ramp. The video card controls don't have the same restriction and result in a much better change. Also, if the video card is set to output black too high, it doesn't matter what you do in software before you get there because you'll just crush blacks but the floor will still be whatever the card is set to.

I cheated a little more in my setup by actually using a Spyder2 and generating an ICF profile for the HTPC which produced a beautiful image (and only works for VMR, not overlay) but the procedure above is what I used to do before the Spyder.

Hey guys,

I am looking for someone in the Northern Virginia area to help with my HTPC. I am willing to pay good money to get some help in setting this up right.

call me 703-731-7383.

HTPC spec's::
Asus SK8V mobo, Athlon 64 FX-53 cpu, ATI 9800XT 256mb, HOLO3DII scaler card, seagates 200 HD X2, Plextor 708 DVD, corsair 1gig dual match 512 sticks, Revo 7.1 sound card, FFDShow-PowerStrip-AnyDVD-DScaler5-TheaterTek 2.06.

Thanks,
Carlos
Northern Virginia

Question,
I do not understand, my AMD64 3500+ uses more CPU to play DVD than to play Xvid. I have the 10122004 version and I only resize 2x and denoise 3d.
Help please.

Is Xvid going through ffdshow with the same settings? By resize 2x I assume you mean in each direction. Is denoise3d before or after? Also, are you using the SSE2 version? Andy's preview version uses a lot less CPU, particularly for denoise so for starters you'd be a lot better off using that build.

Yes I use xvid through ffdshow, I tried to get an optimal setting for both Xvid and DVD. denoise3d is before. I am using the SS2 version of 10122004. I tried Andy preview version but it crashed my Explorer and Zplayer, so I gave up on this one. I tried overlay and VMR9, same result.
I am really disapointed, I just got my AMD64 3500+ thinking I could resize xvid and DVD to 1920x1080 lancos4, but it is using too much CPU.

Probably a little too late to mention it for you, but it has come up a bunch of times through this thread that the P4's are actually a lot better for ffdshow processing than the A64's. As far as your crashes with preview, make sure you uninstall ffdshow before installing the preview, otherwise it will crash (though it should never crash explorer itself).

"Andy's preview version uses a lot less CPU, particularly for denoise "

Andy's hand coded assembler optimizations are in the Lanczos Resize, params 2-4....

:cool:

The preview version also had a hand-coded denoise3d that uses almost no CPU (don't use it myself, just resize but the preview is the fastest there is).

I'm confused. What's the difference between the 20040801a_preview_SSE2 version of ffdshow (on Andy's site) and the 20041012_SSE2 version that I now have?

I downloaded the "newer" version because the thread on TheaterTek 2.0 said it works the best. But if the August version is more optimized (read "better") then maybe I should be using it?

The preview one on Andy's site is WAY faster as long as you live within it's constraints (it's expecting specific colorspaces for denoise3d and resize). The newer builds do not have Andy's hand optimized SSE2 (assumptions have been that they just used the compiler settings to generate SSE2 code).

"works the best" is very hard to classify. For me the preview works the best because ALL I do with ffdshow is resize and I feed it YV12 directly from the NVidia codecs (in either TT or ZP). The best I can say is to try it and if it works for what you need, keep it because you'll be able to resize WAY higher with it than the official builds.

As I noted though, make sure to actually uninstall any other version first. The settings took a different format and it ended up crashing if you had any old settings lying around and you tried to go in and configure.

pcgeek,

Thanks for the info. It explains ALOT. I couldn't quite figure out why I couldn't resize to 1080p when others with far less "beefy" hardware are able to do it. Now I know why. I'll give the August build a try tonight.

BTW, you responded to an earlier question I had about VMR9/TT issues I was having. You suggested not using the ffdshow filters if it was possible to use the video driver controls to do the same thing (e,g, gamma, saturation, etc.) - solid advice, thanks. Unfortunately, I played with this all night long. The gray scale bars from DVE looked like a rainbow using VMR9, and the video looked horrible. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get it right. With overlay, the grayscale actually looked gray, and the picture is much, much better.

I am going to try one last thing (can't believe I didn't do this earlier). I have an Eye One display calibration device by GretagMacbeth that I use to calibrate by computer display for digital photo touchup. I'm going to use it to build a calibration file for my plasma display and see what happens. In theory, the color should be spot on with VMR9. Only issue is whether the calibration device will work on the plasma.

Thanks again for your insight,
Phil

Make sure your desktop is set for 32bit color. This also affects the VMR's.

Vern

Even if you end up sticking with overlay you should try not to use any color settings in ffdshow if you can avoid it (TT lets you adjust all of those itself directly to the video card). Since you're familiar with digital photo touchup, adjusting in ffdshw would be like working on the 8 bit jpeg image where adjusting the video card settings is more akin to adjusting the 10 or 12-bit raw files from cameras :)

Vern,

Desktop is set to 32 bit, 1280x720 using powerstrip. Incidentally, I have a Radeon 9200 128MB card, using catalyst 4.9 driver, Windows XP Pro, SP1. I haven't updated to the 4.12 drivers because they require SP2, and I've read that the drivers for the Revo 7.1 sound card that I have may be a problem with SP2. Thanks for the warning about 32 bit.

pcgeek,

Thanks for the analogy. FYI, with overlay I need no color adjustments, and I am adjusting brightness and contrast using TT controls, as you suggest.

This raises another question, though. It's my understanding that an ffdshow filter must be run prior to resize in order to shift the colorspace to YV12 so that the faster resize algorithms can run. Since I run dnoise3d after resize, and I no longer need to run the picture properties filter, which filter at what settings should I run prior to resize?

Thanks,
Phil

Since you're using TT 2.0 it will actually spit out YV12 directly to ffdshow (assuming 2.06). If you have NVPP as the first filter it will convert to YV12 or if you have ffdshow as the first TT will configure the Nvidia codec to output YV12 directly (if not, there is a registry key to do it).

I use TT 2.06 with ffdshow as the first filter (all I watch is film so no need for NVPP) and all I use in it is resize and have no problems with the preview version at all.

I just got a hold of some old hardware and I want to know if I can turn it into an dvd upscaler to 720p. If it can I will finish reading and start getting to work. Okay, any software names to look into would be very helpful.

PIII 933
Dell branded Nvidia Riva TNT2 Plus 16mb Video Card
512mb ram
VGA out with a VGA cable that has the RGB connectors so I can input to sony projector’s rgb input.

If I can do this without spending any $$$ it would be awesome. Will my hardware support what I am trying to do?

I'm planning on an HTPC upgrade in the near future and I'd like to use VMR9 to avoid using Levels. All I currently do with ffdshow is a 1280x720 resize and Levels into my Sammy DLP. I don't plan on doing much more with the new hardware.

Seems the smart money nowadays is on a 6600GT based card, so I was thinking about a MSI NX6600GT. But noise is a concern so I'd like to go with passive cooling if I can. Will an ATI sapphire 9600 (128mb) be good enough? A 9600XT? Will I regret not getting the 6600GT in the end?

Any advice is appreciated.

I haven't really touched my HTPC (only used for mpeg2 playback) config for about 6 months and it seems a lot new exciting ways of implementing ffdshow has been uncovered. I read up and got back in the game and reconfigged my setup.

Barton 2500+
512 MB DDR
Radeon 9200
Revo
X1 @ 800x600@60hz
ZP 4.10 beta 2 - overlay
FFDshow 20050122
Windvd 6 (video and audio)
Dscaler 5.0.0.5 (only used for comparison)

1) Denoise3d 0,0.9,0,5.5
2) Avisynth xsharpen
3) Resize 2x, Lancsoz2 L1.0
4) YV12

In a perfect world this would work just fine, and it almost does.

NTSC playback runs smooth with about 90-95% load, and looks just great.
PAL playback is a different matter completely. To get smooth playback Í have to turn of 1) + 2) and only resize to 1280x720 or (1.6 and lower). This seems too cpu expensive to be just a matter of PALs higher resolution. So I was wondering if there was some configuration issue I may have overlooked. I have tried different versions of ffdshow and I find I get the most performance from the newest version.

If there's any info I haven't provided to make it easier to identify the problem let me know and I will give it.

Bottomline: NTSC runs fine, PAL has a huge performance hit in comparison, how do I solve it?

Have you tried video NTSC? I wouldn't be surprised if youur PAL problem was really because of the higher frame rate (25 vs 24) and you'd see the same problem with 30fps video. That seems like quite a bit to be doing with a barton.

Thanks pcgeek for helping me yesterday. I finally got Andy's version installed and it is not crashing WMP/Zplayer/Explorer. In ffdshow, I had to disabled all the codec except the RAW one. I have to say this version is amazing, the CPU usage is way down, and now I can resize to 1440x960 with no problems. For Xvid, CPU is at 30%, but DVD still at 80-90%, and this is in overlay. I can not use VMR9, Zplayer freeze.
In conclusion, I still don't know why my CPU usage would be twice for DVD, it should be the same or less than compressed xvid.
Maybe something to do with my 6600GT trying to do some hardware processing and ffdshow software processing at the same time. I should probably disable hardware processing, but I don't know how.
On another note, I can not get the nvidia dvd decoder to work. I register ok in zplayer, but when I verify it still says decoder not registered. It works fine in WMP. So I am using WinDVD decoder.

Do you realise this is the 30,000+ reply to this topic!

30% just seems so suspiciously low for any ffdshow processing (particularly 1440x960 resize). If you are using ZP for xvid as well, you need to make sure ffdshow is in the graph in the media section (best to turn on the OSD and just see if it shows up). The DVD decoders (even in software mode) just don't use that much CPU.

Yes, I do use the OSD to make sure ffdshow is enabled, but I use windows for CPU checking. I use 1. denoise3d and 2. resize always 1440x960. Xvid file I tested is a 2GB file Return of the King with Dolby digital output.
I tried 1920x1080 with xvid and the CPU goes up to 55%. Not bad at all. My problem is with DVD playback CPU usage.

"My problem is with DVD playback CPU usage"

suggest you stop looking at ffdshow, and see why your dvd setup is using so much CPU... and make sure you use a Film (24fps) dvd to check, video (30fps) DVD's use a lot more cpu....

:cool:

I've just built a new system, will not be using Intervideo Win DVD codecs so I don't need the H_KEY_LOCAL_USER hack, right?

Will be using NVidia codec instead. Don't need the ....Abstract filter either?

Originally posted by jimwhite


suggest you stop looking at ffdshow, and see why your dvd setup is using so much CPU... and make sure you use a Film (24fps) dvd to check, video (30fps) DVD's use a lot more cpu....

:cool:

Can I ask why video DVD's take so much more CPU than film DVD's. How can I tell for sure if it is a video or film DVD? If it was originally in the theaters as a Hollywood release, does that guarantee that the DVD was mastered from film?

Video transfers are 30fps compared to 24fps for film, i.e. a 25% greater frame rate, so 25% more CPU required.

Theatrical releases are usually 24 fps but special features are sometimes 30 fps. Most TV shows and concerts are 30fps.

Usually there's an info page in your player that shows frame rate.

I've been using DScaler 5 for a while, having used WinDVD 6 codecs before that. But lately microstutter has been standing out whenever I watch DVDs, and it's been very distracting. I tried backing down my resize settings all the way to my desktop resolution, and it still persisted. And this is using Reclock as my audio renderer in ZP as well.

So tonight, after I finished watching Troy, I tried changing some stuff around, including going back to WinDVD 6 codecs to try. And it turns out that the microstutter was being caused by either the DScaler 5 audio or video codecs, because it's completely gone now. And I'm back up to a resize of 1920x1920, with no microstutter at all (checked on Troy and 2 other DVDs).

cyberbri,

I have found the same thing. I have been unsuccessful in even getting DScaler 5 audio to work so I use Intervideo Audio (WinDVD 6). Even then, there is microstuttering, even macrostuttering if I try blur and noise after resize. This is when doing either VMR9 or VMR7 and I've had to go back to overlay in order to attain a smooth picture.

As a matter of fact, I still haven't decided that DScaler 5 is any better than WinDVD 6. I know that I am unwilling to pay for AnyDVD just to get around the CSS problem, especially since WinDVD 6 takes care of macrovision included in the price. I realize that DScaler 5 is free and the added expense of AnyDVD is comparable to the cost of purchasing WinDVD 6 but I've already purchased WinDVD 6 and don't care to add another expense unless the difference in video quality is not only evident, but knocking my socks off!

Wayne

Originally posted by mystery
I know that I am unwilling to pay for AnyDVD just to get around the CSS problem, especially since WinDVD 6 takes care of macrovision included in the price.

You don't have to pay for AnyDVD, you can just download DVD43Free:

http://www.dvd43.com/

Hi '....',

I appreciate the suggestion and have tried that but it wouldn't defeat CSS in ZoomPlayer. An error message kept coming up about a certain key code being incompatible or not found or something like that. So I'm at the beginning of a trial period with AnyDVD while I evaluate DScaler 5. Have you actually gotten DVD43Free to work with DScaler 5 and ZoomPlayer? Perhaps I used the wrong version. I downloaded the very newest one, 3.5 I think it was, which eliminated bad sectors such as those found on 'The Forgotten' which caused an inability to burn movies with those bad sectors. Maybe the older version works better on ZoomPlayer or could there be another reason altogether?

Wayne

mystery,

I paid for AnyDVD. I have a number of Japanese DVDs, but like the ability to be able to skip trailers that come on before movies, that I would otherwise have to watch or wait through.

I wonder if it is just the DScaler 5 audio codec.

And yes, VMR will use a lot more CPU. Even at the smallest resize, I got tearing with VMR9 - on panning shots, and when there is quick changes on the screen (single frame lightning flashes, etc.). I don't see a difference between VMR9 and Overlay that would make me want to use it with no resize just to use (being sure to adjust my display's brightness up/down to compensate). With Overlay and WinDVD 6 codecs, I am resizing to 1920x1920 with no problems (so far). There's a bit of a green push with VMR9, and the color rendering is a little different, but I haven't done enough A/B comparisons on my own to try and see which one looks better. If my video card was good enough to handle VMR9 and resize, I might be more interested in it. I guess I'll have to wait until the VMR Renderless version in Zoom Player is finished and stabilized to really try it.

And you're doing the DMO_V Abstract fix, right?

Cyberbri,

Yes, I have the Abstract fix in place. I've found that I can utilize DScaler 5 video but not audio for some reason. No matter, I just use either Cyberline (PowerDVD 5) or WinDVD 6 audio codec SPDIF out to my receiver and the sound is great.

I cannot use VMR9 without tearing and stuttering UNLESS I switch from Denoise 3D to Gradual Denoise and that simple change allows me to operate in VMR9 without stuttering or tearing, even putting blur and nr after resize in ffdshow!

So my choices are smooth playback with overlay using any video codec, or smooth playback VMR9 without Denoise 3D in DScaler 5. I can use Denoise 3D with WinDVD 6 without problems but in DScaler 5 there is much stuttering.

Either way, I can't decide which is better, WinDVD and overlay with Denoise 3D or DScaler VMR9 with Gradual
Denoise.

I'm only using a GeForce PCX 5300. Maybe an upgraded card would allow me to use WinDVD and VMR9 at the same time. Not worth the money for now I think. My two options render a superb image and I'm happy.

By the way, I found out that DVD43Free must be used in the previous version 3.04 in order to work in Zoomplayer on my system. The new version, 3.5 will allow burning of bad sector DVDs but won't work in Zoomplayer. So, I downloaded the older version and it's working fine with Zoomplayer, therefore, I've suspended my free trial of AnyDVD for now.

I'm also using the new Zoomplayer beta version 4.10. Have you tried it yet?

Wayne

Originally posted by jaybrubin
dude just update your computer...the differences on a PDP are day and night between overlay and VMR9 playback...what i call a deeper image...overlay has that illusion more light...but i find the image to be "thin" in overall depth...even at dramtic resizes...my hardware is 533FSB 2.8P4 with a 1gig of RDRAM...utlilizing andy's optimized build of ffdshow...

and the do have a VMR9 renderless mode now:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494775


I may check out the Renderless VMR9 when I get a chance. I'll also have to investigate the Overlay/VMR9 differences some more, in-depth. It's hard to do because I can't take screen grabs from Overlay, and I have to adjust my display's brightness when I switch back and forth.

I'll try a lower resize value (maybe 1.5x instead of my current 1920x1920), but I can't really get a new video card just for a "better" DVD picture (WAF, etc.).

Originally posted by mystery
Cyberbri,

I'm also using the new Zoomplayer beta version 4.10. Have you tried it yet?

Wayne

I think I'll try some VMR9 vs Overlay comparisons as well when I get a chance. And see if VMR9 Renderless is stable enough to watch whole DVDs with without annoying problems to frustrate myself (and moreso my wife).

And no, I haven't upgraded to 4.10 yet. I don't know what new stuff it offers, and I'm not sure how to save my user settings, so I don't want to have to go back and customize everything again. Maybe sometime down the road.

On my Barco Graphics 808 I see a very significant difference between VMR9 and Overlay on dScaler 5. And a huge difference between that and WinDVD, so I'm on dSCaler 5 with VMR9 and the resize you see in my signature. I have some tearing, but I'm willing to live with that until ZoomPlayer renderless is rockin' and rollin' stable.

Mastiff,

Even when you change brightness (Overlay -> down for VMR9) and color saturation (Overlay -> up for VMR9)? When I made the proper changes, I could barely see a difference at all. Certainly not enough to live with no reseize and the risk of tearing just to get.

I posted this on another thread (PQ differences between Overlay and VMR9) last night:
did some testing, not screen caps for immediate A/B, but just switching between Overlay and VMR9 and changing display settings every time.

I found that these two:
Overlay, w/ Display Brightness @ 55, Color @ 40
and
VMR9, w/ Display Brightness @ 38, Color @ 55
look virtually the same. I say "virtually" because I really had to look hard to notice a difference. I'd say that just based on that alone, VMR9 has a slight edge overall, but it's not as saturated, even when changing the settings as above.

I also noticed that with subtitles on in Finding Nemo, the subtitles seemed to flash. I paused it and went frame by frame, and it would alternate between a soft edge on the subtitles, to a sharpened edge. So this was fluttering and creating a weird shimmering. I also noticed this on some edges in Fifth Element, where things seemed to slightly shimmer.

So this would take away that edge because it's distracting.

At least on my setup, the difference is nowhere near night and day. It's more like sunset and and 5 minutes before sunset.



However, the slight difference doesn't make up for the fact that on my system (dinky video card apparently), if using VMR9 I can only resize to 1.1x DVD resolution before getting bad tearing. And I have to use ffdshow with it because VMR9 is softer than Overlay. With Overlay, I can resize to 1920x1920, sharpen it up, and have no stutter at all. So this gives me a much better/sharper picture on my setup/display.

Note that I have an nVidia GeForce 5200 Ultra card, thouhg it's overclocked as high as it will go. I'm sure with a better video card, I'd be able to handle VMR9 better.

I'll be very happy to see a stable VMR9 Renderless version so I can do more with ffdshow. But I'll take a miniscule dip in color rendering quality for a sharper picture with no tearing.

Mine's a 6800, and it's not night and day, but perhaps dusk and day. Half an hour before sunset, maybe? ;) Anyway, I'm sure the renderless playback will be out soon, the reason I have to choose now is that I'm having my projector calibrated early next week, and that must be done with the color analyser on exactly the setup I will use. So that will be VMR9, and the slight tearing I can stand as long as I know that I get a better image (more 3D, for lack of a better word). Remember that any difference visible on a rather small screen (like your Samsung) will be a lot larger when viewed on a correctly adjusted CRT projector on a more than 8 feet wide screen (255 cm, I think).

Another thing is that I love the darker subs VMR 9 gives, it makes them less obtrusive for me (who don't need them) and still readable for guests.

I'm hoping someone has some insight into a minor problem I'm having. I've read around and couldn't quite find an answer to this, and this seemed like the best place to ask.

I'm a big newbie to HTPC... I'm using Zoom player, Dscaler5, and ffdshow to watch DVDs on my PC. I'm waiting for my ATI component adapter to come some time this week.

Anyway, I've got everything working great on my new Athlon 64, CPU usage is steady at around 70-80% using Andy's ffdshow preview, resize to 1776x1000, sharpening, etc.

Everything looks beautiful... except for a little bit of choppyness, but I'm not sure what's causing it. If I completely remove ffdshow from Zoom player's setup, it plays back the DVD flawlessly. If I enable ffdshow with no options selected whatsover (no resize, no noise reduction, no nothing), the playback becomes "stuttery" for lack of a better term. It's fairly minor, but it doesn't seem to make sense... without ffdshow enabled everything works smoothly, but with ffdshow enabled, even without any filters or anything, it has that little bit of choppyness.

Any ideas? Thanks everyone.

So how do you have it hooked up now? VGA?

Things you might check:
- Use Reclock as your audio renderer in Zoom Player.
- Make sure you're outputting YV12 from DScaler 5, and YV12 only from ffdshow.
- If you're using DScaler 5 audio codec, you might try a different one (I had microstuttering with that).
- You might try a different video codec as well, if you have one.
- If you're using VMR9, switch to Overlay and turn up brightness (black level), turn down color saturation, or whatever you need to do to readjust the levels to the proper level.
- Try a 2x DVD resolution Lanscoz 4 resize with Luma Sharpen only, and see how that works.

Problem fixed!

Thanks for all the help cyberbri... as it turned out, I was just a moron....

I was watching the DVDs on my regular computer monitor... set to a refresh rate of 85htz! DUH. I switched it to 60hz and there you go... no more stutter. I was just about to post that it was stuttering at regular intervals, too.

D'oh :o

[edit: I knew something was fishy when I realized that the picture was choppy even with ffdshow disabled. At first I thought it was fine, but my eyes must have been off due to my stupidity or something ;) ]

Hi Guys,
I am trying to run zoom player with the option 'Filter Control' -> Customized Media playback' turned on. How do I enable the FFDshow while using Customized Media playback option?
Thanks.

Rhoniel

This latecomer's thread is swimming in unsorted info as I try to climb the first few steps of this steep learning curve. I have made a sincere attempt to educate myself from the numerous posts yet certain answers are still elusive for me. Would appreciate any help you FFDshow veterans can impart. Here's my setup:

Display: NEC VM5 42" ED Plasma
Size of image: 853 x 480
Viewing distance: 8'
Connection type: ATI Component Dongle
Video card: ATI 9800 Pro AIW
CPU: P4 Northwood 2.8 oc'd to 3.1
Memory: 2 x 512 OCZ Dual Channel DDR SDRAM PC3200

OS: Windows XP Pro SE2
Driver version: Catalyst 5.2
Output resolution: 856 x 480
Add. enh: (ie. AA, AF)
Video Codec: DScaler 5005
Video Renderer: VM9 Windowless
Ffdshow version: 20040801a Preview (Andy's build)

Fdshow filters used (in order)
1. Denoise3d - .5, .5, 5, FAST
2.Lanczos 4 - Luma/Chroma at .3
3.
4. (output colorspace) YV12

Using ZP 4.03.

Currently I'm seeing 30% CPU usage with this setup, thanks Andy! Newer version (Dec 04 build) was a whopping 30-40% slower.

Frankly, I'm quite pleased with myself that I even managed to get this far but I'm looking for the next few steps to take in order to optimize picture quality for my plasma. The picture is pretty decent as is but I feel there's room for improvement particularly with sharpness enhancement. I'm ideally aiming for the quality of HDTV broadcasts that look stunning on my NEC. I don't know if this is possible with DVD's played off my hard drive. Comments would be welcomed.

Specific questions:

1)No matter what resolution I set in Lanczos my display still says I'm receiving a 480p signal. Why is this?

2)Is there any advantage to outputting higher resolutions on my ED display?

3)I'm currently using 'extended desktop' mode to activate my plasma as the 2nd monitor. Any thoughts/implications/limitations over this?

4)Try as I may I cannot locate an FLT*.dll file that I understand represents the Dscaler sharpen filter. I'd like to try this.

5) Can anyone with a 42" ED plasma offer any suggestions for optimal set-up, tips, tricks, alternate settings, etc.?

Many thanks in advance to anyone with the inclination and knowledge to help.

Specific questions:

1)No matter what resolution I set in Lanczos my display still says I'm receiving a 480p signal. Why is this?

No matter how high you resize, that is scaled to your desktop resolution and output as such. If you can resize to a higher resolution, theoretically you can get a better picture.


2)Is there any advantage to outputting higher resolutions on my ED display?

If you can output say 1280x720, and your plasma display can accept that and does a better job of scaling that back down to its native resolution, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, stick with the display's native resolution.

3)I'm currently using 'extended desktop' mode to activate my plasma as the 2nd monitor. Any thoughts/implications/limitations over this?

No comment - can't help you here.

4)Try as I may I cannot locate an FLT*.dll file that I understand represents the Dscaler sharpen filter. I'd like to try this.

Can't help here either.

5) Can anyone with a 42" ED plasma offer any suggestions for optimal set-up, tips, tricks, alternate settings, etc.?

I don't have the same display, but you might try this:

Sharpen - ie., unsharp mask @ 12
Resize Lanscoz 4, Luma Sharp @ 1.0, Chroma @ 0


That's all I do. I can resize to 1920x1600 with Overlay, with Unsharp Mask at 1, or 1.1x DVD res with VMR9 (with different TV picture settings, of course) using more sharpening before the resize. Try dropping the denoise for a while - with such a small display (you're not on a 10' screen), you problably don't need it, and in fact it could be taking away detail from the picture.

I'm grateful for your quick, quality response cyberbri. I'll be attempting more of your suggestions tonight. I just tried outputting 1280 x 720 to my plasma and it indeed accepts the resolution but for some odd reason I get 2" vertical black strips on each side of the picture so it doesn't quite fill the screen like 856 x 480 does. Any idea why this may be? My plasma is 853 x 480.

Just for the heck of it I tried 1920 x 1080 on the plasma and it shows a 4 x 3 display with 6" black bars on both sides! No clue about why this would be. Again, any further insight would be appreciated.

I understood all your comments with the exception of 1.1x DVD. May I impose on you to elaborate on this a bit?

Instead of inputting a specific resolution, you can resize to multiples of the DVD resolution, like 2x DVD resolution, or 2.5x DVD resolution. With my video card, the only resize resolution I can do without getting tearing on VMR9 is 1.1x DVD resolution.

Sorry, I'm not sure about your black bar issues. Perhaps you should just stick to the original. BTW, what connection are you using? (forgive me if you mentioned it already)

@fuzzione: It seems that you are not using Powerstrip, maybe you can try using ati catalyst to force a full screen resolution. You just need to open catalyst and choose a resoultion that matches you plasma's. There is also a "force" button that allow you to choose 1080, 720, etc.

Originally posted by fuzzione


4)Try as I may I cannot locate an FLT*.dll file that I understand represents the Dscaler sharpen filter. I'd like to try this.



If you want to access all the Dscaler filters, you need to install Dscaler 4 and direct FFDShow to look in the Descaler folder for the filters.

As for resize, try double DVD resolution (1440x960 for NTSC).
That should work well on your Plasma.
Remember that the video card will resize to your desktop resolution for output to your display, but this will result in a smoother and less ragged looking image.
For HD displays (1280x720 or higher), I would normally recommend resizing to display res.

Don’t use Chroma sharpening as it only increases noise.

Denoise3d does not loose detail with Luma set under 0.8 (same as 0.0) despite what some people think.
For those that don’t believe me, try a viewing a resolution test screen with Denoise3d enabled and disabled and see if you can see any lose of resolution.
I can’t, even at 1920x1080. Denoise only alters pixels that are different in adjoining frames and resolution in the image does not change 24-30 times per second.
Noise in video often hides posterization problems on some digital displays, so some people prefer to not use noise reduction for that reason.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

You people rock. Thanks so much for your willingness to help a very technically challenged chap.

Cyberbri, I'm using the ATI component dongle attached to the DVI output of the video card. This provides a component signal path to my plasma. Thanks for the explanation of 1.1x DVD. I get it now.

e268, indeed I can get full screen with the 856 x 480p option in Catalyst 5.2 with only slight overscan. However, any other resolution that the plasma accepts (1080i, 720p) yields black bars on the sides. I tried the force option but this produces the same resolutions available (1280 x 720, 1920 x 1080) in the normal selection and the black bars remain. So no difference between forced and unforced same resolutions. I simply can't understand why my STB can throw a 1081 signal at my plasma perfectly, full screen, and I cannot replicate this effect with these signals from my PC. Oh, and another thing, under the Catalyst Component Video Properties --->Advanced setting, you can apparently use 'custom resolutions' but the buttons for 'adding' and 'removing' such resolutions appear 'greyed-out' and not functional on my set up. Any idea why?


Owen, thanks for solving this irritating mystery for me. I'll locate and install Dscaler 4 and try the FLT sharpen filter. I was going crazy trying to undertand why it's not there nor individually available for download anywhere I searched. Funny they wouldn't have included the same filters in the '5' versions of Dscaler. BTW, do you have any insight to offer as to the quality of the various other third party sharpen filters? Avisynth's for instance?

Overall, I'm not displeased with my present setup running in 1440 x 960 in FFDshow, scaled to the plasma's native 853 x 480. But I will forever be a tinkerer in search of further improvement toward that 'perfect picture', thus my quest for additional help.

One more thing, my NEC is an extremely sensitive display and cries out for good clean signals. Lousy DVD's create much sparkle effects and other noise whereas the quality transfers simply shine on my display.

Thanks again people.

Dscaler 4 is an application for live TV viewing using common TV cards and comes with many filters for deinterlacing and other tasks.

Dscaler5 is an mpeg2 decoder and nothing more. IMHO it is the best quality decoder available.

My favourite sharpen system is FFDShow’s resize sharpen. With my sig, what would you expect :D
It provides subtle but effective sharpening with minimal adverse side affects.

Descalers sharpen filter has its place for some displays, but it tends to increase noise.

I have not tried limited sharpen using AVI Synth.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen, there's nothing humble about it! I did a bit of testing a few days ago on my newly adjusted Barco Graphics 808 1/2 S (with some S-parts, but not the same tubes), and there was no doubt. WinDVD 5 now looks like s... compared to nVidia DVD, and that is a rather rotten apple compared to dScaler. Still, dScaler alone is an apple that's too ripe for my taste. But with ffdshow with my current settings dScaler sharpen (varying from 108 to 130, depends on the movie), 3dDenoise and 2040x2040 resize, on a GeForce 6800 running VMR9 is as good as I think it's possible to make it right now. The CPU's maxed out, but without any stuttering at al. A bit of tearing, yes, but I can live with that since the rest is so perfect. I have ordered a 6800 Ultra to see if that removes the tearing. If not, I'll just have to wait for Blight, so he can finis renderless mode.

Quick question for you ffdshow experts:

On another thread, a member (I think it was Mastiff) said to resize as high as your CPU will allow without judder. So I did @ 3x resize - the highest I could go without stutter. I am using Bicubic default (I know many here use Lanczos, but whether it is 2,3, or 4 I get ringing, even ith sharpness @ 0); besides, I like the way Bicubic looks.

I am using powerstrip to pixel-map to my 4805 - 848x480-47.952Hz.

My question is that when I resize this high, right before THeaterTek starts playing, a window pops up that says "Active Movie Wondow" - then just goes behind TT. If I pull up Task Manager and try to close it, it shuts down TT. It doesn't cause any stuttering or tearing.

What is it? Is it bad? It doesn't appear on lower resize, just on 3x resize. Any thoughts/comments?

Can you still watch a DVD, even with that window in the background?

Originally posted by cyberbri
Can you still watch a DVD, even with that window in the background?

Yep. Plays normal. No judder, no nothing - like it isn't even there. When I click on TT, screen goes black and window pops up and on the top says "Active Movie Window." Then the TT logo appears (I guess it pops in front of it while the other window hides behind it) and everything acts normally.

If I double click TT, it minimizes so I can see the desktop behind it. And right behind TT is the black window with Active Movie window at the top in the blue part.

But the movie plays perfectly. And it only does this when I go higher than 2x resize. Since it plays perfectly, I have been keeping it 3x since Mastiff said to resize as high as my CPU will let me.

Wierd huh?

Dscaler5 is an mpeg2 decoder and nothing more. IMHO it is the best quality decoder available.

Doh! My bad, thanks Owen.
___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, I should have paid more attention to that

Originally posted by cyberbri
Sharpen - ie., unsharp mask @ 12
Resize Lanscoz 4, Luma Sharp @ 1.0, Chroma @ 0



Thx... I have still been having problems and could never get Lanscoz anything to work without being choppy at 2x res. I had my Sharpen on Asharp which was giving me the problems. I put it on unsharp mask and that took care of it. I can now go to 1920 x 1280 with Lanscoz on 4 with no studdering and I think the pic with Lanscoz looks wonderful and runs at about 80-90% comp usage.

The only setting I have is those 2 stated by you above and the overlay output at yv12. I know nothing about what other options do and have just been trying other peoples setups for a long while just trying to get things to work.

You guys think it would be better to go down to 1440 x 960 where I have about 60% comp usage with lanscoz at 8 and toss in some other option that you might think would help even more? My current desktop is at 1200x666 on a mitsu dlp. I'm using the Dscaler5 and the Nvidia decoder going back and forth trying to see which one is better but they both look good.

After using the unsharp mask and Lanscoz I saw a large improvement in PQ. Are there any other setting that you think I should try to make it even better without taxing the comp?

You can try the higher Lanscoz settings, but you may find that 4 is the best compromise of sharpness and ringing (getting more ringing the higher you go).

Also, if you use the August 1 version, which is the fastest version for resize, you may be able to resize to a higher resolution with less CPU usage. Get that here:
http://ffdshow.leffe.dnsalias.com/andy2222/

I use WinDVD 6, because on my setup it looks nearly the same as DScaler 5, and handles video sources better (no combing/deinterlacing artifacts). I would experiment with my NVDVD codec more, but I can't use ffdshow with it for some reason.

And I've been going with VMR9 Windowed for the past few weeks, even though I can only resize to 1.1x DVD resolution with my dinky video card (nVidia 5200 Ultra), even though I can do 1920x1600 with Overlay.

It's all about experimenting and seeing what looks best to your eyes. I've find that less is more with ffdshow filters. I don't use denoise or anything else but a little unsharp mask, plus Lanscoz resize + Luma Sharpen.

I've seen a few posts about being able to adjust FFDshow settings (sharpness filters?) on the fly, but thus far I haven't managed to do this. As it stands I must shut down ZP, change FFDshow settings the relaunch ZP in order to see the changes. Is there some setting or magic that is involved in accomplishing 'on the fly' adjustments?

If so, what can and can't be adusted in this manner?

Thanks!

I have a question for Samsung DLP owners using ffdshow (or anyone that may know the answer). I found a guide which tells me to resize to 2x DVD resolution (the HTPCNews guide). My question is, since the Samsung DLPs have a native resolution of 1280x720, would it be best to have it resize to that (the native resolution)? It seems like if I were to resize it to 1440x960 per the HTPCNews guide, it would just rescale to 1280x720.

I know it's all a matter of personal preference, but I'm just curious what the general concensus is, if any, regarding this. Also for Samsung owners, what settings do you use?

Thanks in advance.

Guys, I made a brief comparison between the SSE2-version from 20041012 and Andy's 20040802-preview version.

Obvously Andy's version is much faster (15-20% on my Athlon 64 3800+ System).

On the other handside, I have a much smoother(I am not talking about stuttering) looking picture - less artifacts, less flickering etc with the 20041012 version. Anyone else made similar experiences ?

fuzzione, right click in the window, choose "Filters" and select ffdshow. Then you should be able to adjust on the fly.

cyberbri, I'm surprised you don't see much of a difference, even though your screen is pretty small. Then again perhaps it's necessary to have a CRT monitor or projector to see the big difference.

Thanks Mastiff. I take it you mean rt. click in ZP? My Version 4.03 does not contain a 'filters' selection. It does show 'filter properties' but this just quick-launches FFDshow. I still can't make on the fly adjustements. Perhaps it's my version of ZP?

Ahem...Mastiff, I'm embarrassed to say there appears to have been this little matter of having to click the 'apply' button for on-the-fly changes, um that I just discovered. By gosh it works ;o

fuzzione, if you change resize resolutions in FFDShow it may not work and you need to restart the player - but if you play with only the sharpen settings then you will probably be okay.

Yes, just don't click "OK". You want to have ffdshow on top of ZP while it's playing. You can move ffdshow to the side and click filters on/off, or off to one of the four edges so you can move the sliders and see the changes. I don't like the "right half only" option that much.

Originally posted by mpestrada74
I have a question for Samsung DLP owners using ffdshow (or anyone that may know the answer). I found a guide which tells me to resize to 2x DVD resolution (the HTPCNews guide). My question is, since the Samsung DLPs have a native resolution of 1280x720, would it be best to have it resize to that (the native resolution)? It seems like if I were to resize it to 1440x960 per the HTPCNews guide, it would just rescale to 1280x720.

I know it's all a matter of personal preference, but I'm just curious what the general concensus is, if any, regarding this. Also for Samsung owners, what settings do you use?

Thanks in advance.

2x DVD resolution is just a recommended starting point. Experiment with different settings, like 1280x720, 1920x1600, 3x DVD resolution, etc. etc. and find what looks best. With ffdshow, it's all about experimenting to find what looks best on your display, and that even goes with ffdshow versions as well. Finding the best-looking codec on your system is another part of the equation.

I have a Sammy DLP, and my settings are:
VMR9 + Noise 1 to force YUY2->YV12, Unsharp Mask @ 12, Resize 1.1x DVD resolution w/ Lanscoz 4, Luma Sharp @ 1.0
My Overlay settings are/were: Unsharp Mask @ 1 to force YUY2->YV12 conversion, Resize 1920x1600 w/ Lanscoz 4, Luma Sharp @ .80

This is with WinDVD 6 codecs.


originally posted by multiblitz

Guys, I made a brief comparison between the SSE2-version from 20041012 and Andy's 20040802-preview version.

Obvously Andy's version is much faster (15-20% on my Athlon 64 3800+ System).

On the other handside, I have a much smoother(I am not talking about stuttering) looking picture - less artifacts, less flickering etc with the 20041012 version. Anyone else made similar experiences ?


I haven't noticed that. I was using the 10-12 version because it had AC3 in the ffdshow audio filter that WMP10 needs to play certain hi-def trailers. But I switched to the August version for speed reasons, although I haven't been able to plug in a filter into WMP10 that will get the audio right like ffdshow 10-12. Now that you mention this, I might go back and try the 10-12 version, as I have noticed a small amount of flickering w/ VMR9 at low resize settings (although this wasn't apparent with Overlay at high resize settings).



originally posted by Mastiff

cyberbri, I'm surprised you don't see much of a difference, even though your screen is pretty small. Then again perhaps it's necessary to have a CRT monitor or projector to see the big difference.

I think it would require VMR9 and some screen grabs to do immediate a-b-c comparisons. It's hard to keep a picture in your mind as you switch between filters, overlay/vmr (and change display settings), etc. I need to get a good free photo editing program that will let me paste the clipboard into new files so I can do this. But up until now, I don't think anything has been so apparent that I've noticed a big difference between going back and forth. But I'll go back and try the new version of DScaler 5 some more, although I'll have to switch back to WinDVD for video footage if I do so.

I started a thread and did some screenshot comparisons between DScaler 5.0.0.6 and WinDVD 6, if anyone is interested: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=517739



And this is part of my most recent post on that thread, which would also apply here:

I don't know if it was the new 71.84 Beta driver on my nVidia 5200 Ultra card, and being able to adjust the color gamma in the special HDTV setup utility it has (adjusted green and red gamma, blue was fine), or if it was the ffdshow settings I was using (bicubic resize 1.2x DVD res, 1.6 Luma Sharpen with 10-12 version), but with some Spider-Man 1 Superbit scenes (near the beginning, on the bus, outside the museum, at school in the lunchroom and during the fight, plus the scene outside the burnign building with GG inside waiting), the picture finally made me say "dang, I've never seen it look so good before". I had been using Overlay before because I could do more with ffdshow with it than VMR9 (weak video card), and hadn't noticed any major differences between Overlay and VMR9 (properly changing Brightness/Color on my display). But these scenes look better than I ever remember them looking. This is based mostly on the skin tones and textures. Maybe I had too much sharpening going on before, but even the colors looked better. I know that the nVidia control panel has Color Saturation at 114% (0-200 scale) for overlay, so maybe that's why I didn't notice the color saturation difference between Overlay and VMR9 before that people had mentioned ('Overlay looks washed out compared to VMR9). But wow, it looked great. I think I like the lower resize with this level of sharpening.

I was able to get Media Portal working with VMR9 Renderless, though, and it looked amazing. With Media Portal, you have to use ffdshow and resize to the desktop resolution, or it either gives you overscan (resize higher) or severe underscan (resize lower than desktop res). But the picture was silky smooth at a desktop resolution size, and looked amazing (on City of God tests). I had trouble with the DVD menus in the three discs I tested (City of God, Spider-Man 1 Superbit, and Harry Potter: Chamber of Secrets), and the playback is very buggy, with rewinding/ffing, etc. It definitely doesn't have the ease of use that Zoom Player has, especially being able to change ffdshow settings on the fly (at least in Windowed). With Media Portal Renderless, you have to shut down the program, make your ffdshow changes, and open Media Portal back up. I'll be looking forward to ZP's Renderless, and may try to use Media Portal unless it crashes too much and I frustrate the wife when trying to watch something.


</end copied post>


I'm going to have to re-read through the Lanczos vs Bicubic comparison thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=460922 ), but right now, I'm leaning towards:

Dscaler 5 or WinDVD 6 (latter handles de-interlacing problems better for me)
VMR9
10-12 ffdshow -> (Noise, Strength 1 if using WinDVD 6) 1.2x DVD resolution (all I can get w/o major tearing with my video card), Bicubic Resize, Luma Sharpen 1.60


I find that I really like the results I get with this. Lanscoz is slightly sharper, but not as clean around the edges, and IM-subjective-O based on various testing, I like the picture I get with this. Lanscoz 2 also looks really good, slightly sharper. It would take some more detailed tests, but I still get a great picture with Bicubic, and I think that possibly the sharpening within the resize can get me close to Lanczos (when at lower Luma sharpen setting) without some of the dirty edges of Lanscoz. Bicubic is also faster. I've been going between different ffdshow versions (10-12, 8-1, etc.), and even with the August 1 version I couldn't resize higher with VMR9, so I'm taking the ffdshow audio codec (AC3 for certain WMV HD trailers in WMP).

I found that my viewing last night (especially on Spider-Man 1 Superbit) looked better than it had before also because it was cleaner. I think this may be because of a combination of => my sharpening at a lower resize + VMR9. Of course VMR9 is part of the equation, but even with VMR9, going between lower and higher resize values (ignoring the tearing I got at higher values), I think I got a better (read "cleaner, less artificial qualities, sharpening artifacts, etc.) picture at 1.1x DVD res up to my desktop resolution, than with 1920x1600 resize. The best picture was of course VMR9 Renderless within Media Portal, but that player is quite buggy compared to the quality I'm used to with Zoom Player.

Again, this is all subjective observations, based on my computer, video card, and display device (43" Samsung HNL4365W DLP), viewed from 9' away. ;) I didn't do screenshot grabs of these to A/B/C them this time. But I've done 2 late, late nights of testing and comparisons this week - Monday was the WinDVD 6/DScaler 5 comparison thread, and last night was tweaking ffdshow settings, testing Media Portal Renderless (new version out), etc. So I'll probably stick with my current settings (ZP Bicubic resize 1.2x DVD res Luma Sharp 1.6, or Media Portal, same but resize to desktop rez of 1232x694), and watch at least a few DVDs on it before, I start tweaking and experimenting again. ;)

cyberbri

FWIW, although I am a newb to HTPCs I have been reading my butt off, with TT 2.1.18, x700 pro, and renderless VMR9 - I think I have settled on Bicubic (although 2x resize) as well. I too have considered Lanczos 2 - but on Avia, I get ringing.

Bicubic, and a little luma sharpen I get great sharpness without ringing - and I CAN'T STAND ringing.

My image is quite gorgeous now!!

Thanks for the reply, therealgeno.

SOunds like you've got your settings down, then. :)

But I encourage you to read this and check out the pics, with regards to the Avia ringing and Lanczos:

EDIT - Sorry, forgot to post the link: http://www.videophile.info/Editorials/Scaling_vs_EE/Page_01.htm

is there anywhere in here that describes such terms as "tearing" or "ringing" that you guys use to describe issues. I would like to be on the same page as everybody else when I am reading these posts. :)
The glossary up top doesn't include these terms.

"Tearing" is when the screen is refrreshing, but you can see visible breaks in the screen, as if it is being torn. You may be able to reproduce this by opening a large jpg or image file and jerking it back and forth across your desktop really fast. You should see where the image splits. I've never seen tearing with Overlay, but you can usually see tearing with VMR9 when your settings are pushing your video card too high, as VMR9 is rendering the image within the 3D video hardware pipeline.



And "ringing" is the halo effect you see around edges on certain DVDs. When they master DVDs, unfortunately it is usually done on a small CRT, maybe 20" or so. They filter the high quality image to reduce the size of each frame (less data), and then sometimes add "edge enhancement" (EE) to sharpen the picture. But this is done judging the picture quality on a small TV, so if they add a lot of EE, you will see it when you play the DVD on a widescreen TV, and it will be really, really obvious when you project it 8' across with a projector. Some DVDs have little to zero EE, while others have a lot. Ringing is the effect of over-sharpening to the point you see rings or halos around edges. There may be ringing with no sharpening, if there is a lot of EE on the DVD. Or, there may be very little EE on the DVD, but if you crank up the sharpness, you can create your own ringing.

You can see EE here, especially on the shots 2nd from the right (SW Ep 2(?)): http://www.videophile.info/Editorials/Scaling_vs_EE/Comp_01.jpg That image is from the link I posted a few posts up.


Hope that's clear.

cyberbri,

That's very helpful. What is the effect seen in panning shots when the image looks kind of like it's underwater and there's a bit of a wave to the picture? Is that a form of tearing?

Wayne

Originally posted by mystery
cyberbri,

That's very helpful. What is the effect seen in panning shots when the image looks kind of like it's underwater and there's a bit of a wave to the picture? Is that a form of tearing?

Wayne

I've never seen it described like that, but yes, that could very well be tearing.

It will look like one frame on the top, and then a different frame on the bottom, as if two different frames are appearing on the screen (top/bottom) at once.

One scene that can produce really bad tearing is in Finding Nemo, at the end of the race through the jelly fish, where Nemo's dad, forgot his name, is darting around looking for Dory. The camera jerks around really fast, and can produce terrible tearing if you're using non-Renderless VMR9.

With DScaler 5 I get sort of horizontal lines on panning shots. As if the image is on blocks and the top blocks have moved left while the bottom blocks are trying to catch up. With WinDVD 6, I get the wavy underwater type effect. Pick your poison I guess.

Wayne

The DScaler 5 one sounds like Tearing. I'm not sure what that underwater effect is, except maybe macroblocking or something.

What are you using for your player, video renderer (Overlay/VMR), ffdshow settings, etc? What kind of computer/video card do you have?

Wazzey,
Tearing is a little easier to see than ringing. I didn't know what it really was until a few weeks ago when TT renderless was released - and I got tearing b/c I didn't know I needed vsync enabled.

But it looks just like the name - in the middle of the scene, it looks as though a sliver is literally "torn" out.

Ringing, as cyberbri explained very well, are faint white outlines. I never saw them before until I joined this forum and kept trying to see them.

Now I can't stand them - they really bug me. Kinda like RBE, if don't see them - ignorance can be bliss!!!

cyberbri,
I'm using ZoomPlayer with ffdshow. Computer is P4, 3 GHz, 512 MB, hyperthreading on.
I got that wavy effect when using WinDVD 6 and overlay or VMR9. ffdshow settings were resize at 1440 x 960, lanczos 4, luma sharpen 1, no chroma sharpen, gradual denoise 18 (can't use denoise 3D without stuttering), DScaler sharpen filter at 80, levels 16 and 235 input, 0, 235 output, picture properties gamma correction (1.14) and saturation (72),YV12 checked as output colorspace.
My card is nVidea GeForce PCX 5300.
I really don't have any complaints except for panning shots no matter whether I use WinDVD 6 or DScaler 5. Still, I don't think that I would go back to Power DVD 5 or WinDVD 6 on their own.

Mystery,

First of all, turn off your denoise and Levels filters - especially Levels. Turn off your picture properties gamma/saturation, too. You shouldn't need to use any of that unless your display has absolutely no adjustments. And unless you're on a huge projection screen, you may find that you don't need denoise either.

And turning all that off will help your stuttering. Unless you really like the DScaler sharpen, you might just turn up the Luma Sharpen in resize to help CPU usage out as well, cut down on stuttering. Anything working after resize is working on 1440x960 (1,382,400) pixels, rather than 720x480 (345,600) pixels - 4x the pixels.

Whether using Overlay or VMR9, you want to leave the levels alone within the computer, and calibrate the brightness(black)/contrast(white) on your display if at all possible. With Overlay, you're working with PC levels (0-255), so you can use a site like http://www.displaycalibration.com or the Phillips Pattern Generator here: http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/ and adjust the brightness/contrast on your display so black is black, white is white, and you can see the even gradations from 5% up to 95%. That will get your levels right.

If you're using VMR9, your brightness level will be significantly lower on your display, because VMR9 uses Video levels (16-235). So you'll need to get a test/setup disc, THX Optimizer, or eye it by turning brightness (black level) down past notch or two where the black becomes black (no noise/grey).

Thanks cyberbri,

I actually am using a projector with a 92" 16:9 screen. I appreciate all of your suggestions. I actually do like the image as is except for the tearing but I will try your ideas in case this has an effect on the tearing problem. I will probably wait though for a bit because I'm changing projectors in the next week or so and I don't want to calibrate based on the current one only to find out that those parameters don't work for the new one.

Thanks again!

Wayne

Okay. But like I said, running all those filters AFTER resize is taking a lot more power than it needs to. If you want to use everything, then at least move the Levels and Picture Properties to before resize. Anything you put before resize will really help take the load off the CPU.

I will definitely do that cyberbri!

By the way, have you ever thought of moving up from your TV to a projector? You might want to give it a try. You can have both too. I have a 64" Pioneer widescreen CRT set as well as the projector. The TV for everyday viewing and the projector for movies.

Just a thought.

Thanks again!

Wayne

Yes, I've definitely thought about it. Maybe one of these days, after we buy a house (starting price for houses in Silicon Valley is $500K, ouch!) and get settled down more. But yes, I would definitely love to have a nice projector. ;)

Originally posted by cyberbri
I started a thread and did some screenshot comparisons between DScaler 5.0.0.6 and WinDVD 6, if anyone is interested: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=517739



The reason I started that thread was that I was just looking for the "proof" that DScaler 5 was supposedly much better than anything else, including WinDVD 6, the one I normally use. I couldn't find much to sway me to use DScaler 5 considering the deinterlacing errors I found. If those get worked out and it handles deinterlacing better, I'll probably switch over. But for now, I'm happy w. WinDVD 6, VMR9 Windowless, and my Lanczos 2 desktop resolution resize + .80 Luma sharpen. Best picture I've seen on my display yet, and I've been tweaking for a loooong time. ;) I was finally able to get VMR9 to work w/ no tearing by switching to Windowless from Windowed, which also let me resize to desktop resolution rather than 1.1x DVD res, etc. (still got tearing with that).

I "tested" a bunch of DVDs stuff last night - something I do whenever I change my settings, to see how the new settings look. But two DVDs that stuck out as looking better than I ever remember ever seeing, as far as color, skin tone, etc. goes, were Spider-Man 1 Superbit (scenes: inside of bus at beginning, lunchroom scene and hallway fight, and outside burning building w/ GG inside), and LOTR:FOTR:EE (scenes: Rivendell (most scenes - lighting, faces, etc.), disc 2 leaving Rivendell, Fellowship coming over top of mountain and then sweeping pans (no stuttering/tearing!)), plus the texture of the book Bilbo's writing in the beginning (I may have just not ever noticed before and was just looking harder last night, but I saw ribbed texture in the paper as he's writing - plus again when Frodo looks at the book in Rivendell)).

I did screen-cap tests on Monday night with SW-Ep5, Riddick, and one more. One screen I did was SW-Ep5, a plane looping around a walker with the harpoon cable. I did this to check how the thin cable looked (sharp? smooth? noise/steps around edges?).

I got it to look good on Monday, but found last night my VMR9 Windowed, Lanczos2 resize to Desktop Resolution (1232x694) w/ Luma .80 sharpen, looked better, smoother, no noise around the sides of the cable, than any shot I took on Monday. Plus, the motion/panning is very, very smooth with this setup (no tearing noticed yet).

Needless to say, I'm very pleased. :)

Hi,
Without having to read through 30 pages, can ffdshow be used with windows mediaplayer 10 to do different rezs and does it work with dual output video cards like the matrox g450.
Thanks

No, I don't think so. Microsoft don't want anybody to touch or modify anything between the DVD and the monitor. And yes, I have tested ffdshow with display on two monitors, but forget about G450 if you want to run ffdshow. It's ancient. Fossile. Hopeless. Get my drift? You won't be able to get anything out of that, it's far to slow and doesn't support anything worth mentioning of 3D effects needed to get a good picture.

Hi Mastiff, Well I guess you pretty well summed it up then, thanks.

When I first switched from Overlay to VMR9 in ZP Pro and was experimenting with different settings, I was using VMR9 Windowed. I was getting tearing no matter what ffdshow settings I used, basically. But I loved the VMR9 picture so much I wanted to improve it any way I could, and turned on AA on my nVidia 5200 Ultra card (control panel). I had it set to 2xQ, which does 4x quality level supposedly faster than regular 4x.

But then I switched to Windowless, and tearing stopped when using ffdshow. So I was able to get a Lanczos 2 of up to 1232x694, my desktop resolution, combined with .60-1.00 for Luma Sharpen.

Last night I was experimenting with some different sharpening filters to try and sharpen the picture without increasing noise (I liked msharpen, which only does edges, based on Threshold setting, and it has a mask setting so you can see what areas are being sharpened). I was doing this because using the Luma sharpen increases the amount of noise in the picture, and I was using Gradual Denoise for a few days to cut down on it. (see here for a denoise thread about why I chose Gradual over 3d, because 3d got rid of certain crucial details in certain scenes: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522468 ).

But last night I went back to Gradual Denoise @15-20, with Lanczos 2 resize to 1232x694 and Luma Sharpen of .60-.80.

But then I decided to check my video card control panel settings, and tried turning AA up to 8x to see what it did. Of course the picture stuttered to a slideshow rate. So I decided to turn it all the way off and see what happened. Perfectly smooth, of course. I was curious, and tried 2.00x DVD rez resize, no problem. Then I tried 2.5x DVD rez, no problem. Then I tried 1920x1080 resize, again no problems, stuttering, tearing, etc. I went through some of my tearing test DVDs, and only saw tearing on the very cruel (to video cards/tearing) scene in Finding Nemo, the end of the chapter where Dory and Marlin dash through the jellyfish. The end of the scene has Marlin searching frantically for Dory amid the sea of jellyfish, with some super-fast camera jerks. I saw a few tears here, but that's it. Every other scene I tested, from slow pans where most of the screen moves within the picture (easy to tear), to split-second lightning flashes, to long pans of scenery (LOTR:FOTR:EE etc). No tearing, absolutely smooth - even smoother than it was before (no minimal microstuttering I saw before).

And this is with the October 12 version of ffdshow (audio filter allows AC3 WMV HD video clips to play correctly in WMP10).

So I am now able to resize 1920x1080 w/ Lanczos 2, Luma Sharpen at .30, with no tearing and no stutter. I don't even need Renderless in ZP (although I'm sure it would make a slight improvement). And with less Luma sharpening because the higher resize gives me a cleaner, sharper picture, I don't need to use gradual denoise to smooth out the background noise.

All on a GeForce 5200 Ultra card (GPU overclocked from 325 to 390MHz, memory overclocked from 650(?) to 745MHz - still runs very cool), over DVI, outputting 1232x694 desktop resolution, running on a P4 2.8Ghz w/ 512 RAM. Pretty good for such an old video card, eh?

WTS, sorry to be so blunt, but there comes a time in a man's life where he has to let go of his... And so on. ;) I would suggest that you bought a GeForce 6600 or 6800, most of them (maybe all of them) have dual screen output.

cyberbri, I've got to try that! But does using AA change anything in image quality? My current test scene is a very bad pan in Aliens Vs. Predator, where they discover the pyramid and the camera pans around Bishop. I'm pretty sure the pan in itself isn't smooth no matter what you do, but the ice roof above them looks terrible with tearing. The day I get rid of that with the resize I want (2040x2040 looks fantastic on my CRT projector) I will seal up the computer with super glue and never change anything again ... at least not until something new and cool comes around! :)

Mastiff, I never bought it, I got from work out of the an older cad machine which had dual displays, but I needed a vid card and it was free so thats what I'm using. I'm not into building a high performance machine for dvd's, for that I'll get a neuneo or momitsu or something.

Thanks

Originally posted by Mastiff

cyberbri, I've got to try that! But does using AA change anything in image quality? My current test scene is a very bad pan in Aliens Vs. Predator, where they discover the pyramid and the camera pans around Bishop. I'm pretty sure the pan in itself isn't smooth no matter what you do, but the ice roof above them looks terrible with tearing. The day I get rid of that with the resize I want (2040x2040 looks fantastic on my CRT projector) I will seal up the computer with super glue and never change anything again ... at least not until something new and cool comes around! :)

Anti-aliasing basically, IIRC, renders each frame at a higher resolution and resamples edges to get rid of jaggies (stair-steps) at the regular resolution. This will be most noticeable on straight edges shown diagonally, circles, etc. This takes a big hit out of performance, as shown by my example. If you have it turned on, you can get more performance by turning it off. FFDSHOW is already resizing/upscaling, so jaggies shouldn't be an issue. It's more of an issue with video games, especially on the PS2 (can do AA, but takes too much graphical performace away, so most developers don't use it) -- and especially when blown up on big HDTVs as opposed to 20" or 27" CRTs.

If you need to check how smooth (stuttery) the pan actually is, try watching it through your normal DVD player. I've seen occasional stutters, etc. in HD movies on HBO, etc....

But by turning off 2xQ AA on my video card (5200 Ultra!), I can get silky smooth pans, no stuttering, and tearing only in the harshest scenes (like the Finding Nemo one I mentioned) - all at Lanczos 2 1920x1080 resize w/ .40 Luma sharpen. One thing to check is make sure you're running Windowless, not Windowed. I have tearing with just ffdshow sharpen filters when using Windowed (and thought I was SOL w/ ffdshow if I wanted to use VMR9).

I also have my video card overclocked, both for 2D and 3D --> gpu hardware 325 oc'ed to 390, and memory speed from 650 to 745. The card still runs very cool at those settings. My HTPC is in my TV stand (see my gallery), and I was able to take out the back panel behind the HTPC, rather than have it run hot and/or run noisy fans on the back of the panel. I leave the glass panel on the front of the stand in front of the HTPC so I can't hear its fans running.


HTH

Originally posted by cyberbri
Anti-aliasing basically, IIRC, renders each frame at a higher resolution and resamples edges to get rid of jaggies (stair-steps) at the regular resolution. This will be most noticeable on straight edges shown diagonally, circles, etc. This takes a big hit out of performance, as shown by my example. If you have it turned on, you can get more performance by turning it off.
HTH

AA can be done in many different ways. AA can resample the edges, or the whole image depending on the algorithm it is using. There are also limits in hardware as to how high can one go with resampling.

For example, Quadro FX 4000 can upsample incomming 1920x1080 24fps image in multisampling mode (i.e. entire image, not just the edges) 4x to 3640x2160 image for output at 1080p. This is quite close to the hardware limit (which is 3640xwhatever in 4:3 mode), so one could not do 16x. 16xAA could be done with a combination of 4xmultisampling and 4xsupersampling, or just 16xsupersampling, but only on lower output resolutions like 800x600. For 720p output 4xmultisampling is upsampling to 2560x1440. Quadro FX 4000 does 4xmultisampling on 720p output withouth breaking a sweat, regardless of the input size (I tried as high as 2560x2160, texture limit is 4000x4000).

Another good thing for Quadro is that it does gamma corrected AA downsampling. GeForce does not do gamma corrected AA, at least not through regular control panel. ATI does it, but I am not sure if they do multisampling or just supersampling. The last time I checked it was only supersampling.

There is a good utility on www.guru3d.com that has all the available GeForce modes, plus it might turn on the gamma correction. It is called nHancer.

I'm arming myself with Finding Nemo, and I'm gonna try first to remove AA and then change the latency for the AGP port, if the AA doesn't change much. Thanks!

Wow, that tehcnical stuff makes my brain hurt! Anyway, I'm arming myself with Finding Nemo, and I'm gonna try first to remove AA and then change the latency for the AGP port, if the AA doesn't change much. Thanks!

I don't know if gamma correction is necessary on my system, I had the projector set up by an expert with a color analyzer, with exactly the setup I'm using.

Originally posted by Mastiff
I don't know if gamma correction is necessary on my system, I had the projector set up by an expert with a color analyzer, with exactly the setup I'm using.

It is necessary for every system. Gamma gets messed up in upsampling, so correction is necessary for reference quality.

By the way, a real life impact of different modes is minimal. In my system Purevideo drivers got rid of all jaggies. I am not sure when was this turned on, but with 71.84 WQHL no more jaggies.

OK. But purevideo only counts when you use the NVidia DVD filters, doesn't it?

Anyway, if I turn off AA then gamma correction isn't necessary, right?

Based on my exprerience, scaling with 71.84 WQHL was clearly superior by using same FFDShow settings. So, however you want to call it, it works.

AA is independent of scaling.

Sorry, but that one I didn't understand, maybe because I'm not a native english speaker. Do you mean "superior to" or perhaps "superior when", or is the meaning something else?

You are right - does not make sense. Multitasking is taking a toll.

Anyway, scaling with 71.84 drivers in FFDShow setup was better compared to scaling with some older drivers (like 6x.xx series) in the same FFDShow setup. Both setups included Nvidia 1.0.67 decoder and Mediator VMR9 renderless. Same tweaks, same AA and AF, same FFDShow settings.

FYI, I just started a new thread on properly calibrating your display for DVD playback, which can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=523614

Originally posted by Muddlin'Thru


I've just completed my first dvd to HD archive. All went well but when I play back from the HD using ZP/FFDshow I get a thick vertical green bar on the right side of the display.

I tried removing the various ffdshow filters one by one, no effect but if I take ffdshow out completely the green bar goes away. The file plays okay in WinDVD as well.


I searched the forum but didn't find an answer to this question. I have the same problem except that I only get this when I resize using ffdshow. Everything works fine until I click the resize button and the picture is compressed on the sides and the green bar appears on the right side. I am resizing to 1280x720 to match my projector.

"Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms."

I tried searching and got that answer, so here is my question. I am using ffdshow, the most recent build, with blur & NR and then resize to 1280 x 720. It plays smoothly, but i am getting 100% CPU.. Does that matter?

I have an AMD 3500, ATI x800 agp, and 2 GB corsair ram.


thanks

chas

Originally posted by DV8
I searched the forum but didn't find an answer to this question. I have the same problem except that I only get this when I resize using ffdshow. Everything works fine until I click the resize button and the picture is compressed on the sides and the green bar appears on the right side. I am resizing to 1280x720 to match my projector.

When you press the resize button, are you saving the ffdshow settings and restarting playback? You have to stop and restart playback to get the resize size to fit within the desktop.

Ie., if you have a 1280x720 desktop and you play a DVD without resize on, it will fill the screen (no ffdshow resize). While it's playing, if you change the resize to 1280x720, the picture will zoom in and you won't see the whole thing. Then you need to save the ffdshow settings, stop playback and press play again.

Conversely, if you lower the resize, say from 2x DVD rez to 1280x720, the picture will get smaller on the screen and you may see a green line on the screen until you stop and restart playback.