Ffdshow FAQ [Text View] - Page 3

debennett2

12-01-03, 04:06 PM

I am sorry if I ticked some people off. The fact of this matter is that, although opensource, ffdshow is very limited as far as documentation goes. In fact, one would think when visiting the sourceforge site that it was no longer being used at all. The fact that the sourceforge does not have a forum to discuss it's use makes it even THAT more annoying. The only place I have found discusion of ffdshow was in this thread on this forum. I noticed a lot of mentioning of resizing, but that is not what I am really trying to do in my case. In my case, I want to just use ffdshow to try to clean up badly encoded/recorded VCD/SVCD/Divx/Xvid video to watch on my HD set at 640x480. That worls fine for me as my set is 4:3 ratio anyhow. The fact that I didn't have the latest version was a mistake I made, I admit. I did not download the version I had thinking it was an out-of-date version. I thought once I mentioned that I did not have some of the options that others had stated they had that someone would have mentioned the fact that I might not have the newest version.

Anyhow, back to the topic. Does anyone have suggestions on what filters to use. what levels, and in what order to take generally lower-quality video (i.e. VCD/SVCD) and spruce thigns up a little (i.e. get rid of some blocking and whatnot)?
Also, is there a filter that works like the "Auto-levels" option in Photoshop? Even if it only was used for brightness and only took a "look" at the source video every few seconds or more, that would be a great plugin if it does not exist. Thanks.

By the way, no one stated that you didn't have a life outside of this forum. Assuming that I DO NOT is an insult.

pcaulfie

12-01-03, 06:04 PM

debennett2, just to sympathize...I wish I could have answered your questions and your posts don't seem to illustrate that you have not done ANY research at all.

Being new here myself I try to search as much as I can to find the answers to my problems. Often, I worry about getting jumped on for asking a question when the answer might lie deeply buried in a thread as long as this one. Don't feel like you're the one who owes an apology.

Now to add my two cents, start with a simple resize. Play around with what resolution works best for your setup. I initially like 1440 x 960 but found I couldn't do much else with my 2500 Barton. I knocked it down to 960 x 540, my Z1's resolution and then messed around with gradual denoise and denoise3d. Now I'm on to unsharp mask and playing around with that. Adjust your levels to improve quality but free up CPU. There's a fine line that exists (I hope). Also, the brief descriptions in ffdshow might get you on the right track for choosing settings. A lot of folks here use settings that work best for their setup so it will take a lot of time tweaking and comparing your results. Trust me though, it's definitely worth taking the time. I'd rather spend time tweaking ffdshow then reading every post in this thread. Good luck.

pochoboy

12-01-03, 06:25 PM

JMHO, ffdshow is shareware(free) Geez, give an inch and some want the whole 10 yards for 1st down or maybe touchdown.

I don't mean to sound thata way. but hey, it's free!!!! Free!!! FREE!! Luckily I've found people on this site to share their knowledge. I know for sure I can't write programs of this sort. But hey, I sure can play with it and ask someone in these forums for advice or even do a search if no one responds.

Now, if I had paid for this software, that's a whole different ballgame.

jvincent you there!

my hats off to yah!

debennett2

12-01-03, 07:37 PM

pochoboy,
I am very aware that the software is free. The fact that it is opensource usually lends itself that there is a large community of users taht are willing to help each other out with it (at least in the case where there ARE a lot of users). I did not flame the developer for his work at all. If you have ever been to myHTPC.net, you'd know that is not how I do things. In fact, I think a lot of people could learn something about how an online community should work from myHTPC.net. Just my two cents....

pochoboy

12-01-03, 08:25 PM

my apologies to you dbennet! Sorry to everyone on AVS Forums for going off subject here.

consolejockey

12-01-03, 09:59 PM

I couldn't find if there was ever posted a solution to the problem of getting a green mess while using FFDSHOW + Zoom Player + NVDVD filters, so I thought I'd post a possible fix.

Install Vobsub (google vobsub, it can be downloaded many places) and tick the DirectVobSub checkbox in Zoom Player under DVD Setup - Customized - Additional filters.

For whatever reason this fixed it for me.

Mastiff

12-02-03, 03:25 AM

Be excellent to each others, dudes. Party on!

DTSman-fr

12-02-03, 06:33 AM

Does anyone has compare sharpness filter like :

- DMO Sharpness (from InterVideo)
- Resize&sharpen (from ffdshow)
- FLT_Sharpness (from Dscaler)
- Unshap mask (from ffdshow)

My opinion would be to say that unshapmask is worse but it is more difficult to differentiate the 3 others. Resize&Sharpen can be the finest but also the least visible :(

Owen

12-02-03, 06:45 AM

QUOTE]Originally posted by Beatles
Trust me NOBODY is waiting for the latest "pronouncement" from you regarding FFDSHOW. Your self aggrandizing is extremely annoying. [/QUOTE]

Reading my posts is completely optional.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Beatles
Many of us were using resize-sharpen long before you were. [/QUOTE]

If this is so, why is it that none of you cared to share your knowledge with the members of this Forum? :confused:

According to the search engine, the FIRST post regarding “resize sharpen” on this forum was from me, entitled “Ffdshow resize to sharpen”.
Since that first post my continued input speaks for itself.
Your input has been exactly what………..?

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen

12-02-03, 07:31 AM

On a more positive note.

I am well aware that this thread is getting unmanageably long, and it would indeed be very useful to have it summarized.
To do this properly would be a major task and one that I have not yet found the time. If someone wants to have a go, feel free. I would be glad to assist.

This thread has been running for many months and there have been many developments and discoveries over that time.
What was considered best practice in the beginning has been modified as experience and combined knowledge accumulated. It would be difficult to summaries all the details of ffdshow and how it interacts with Zoom Player, TT, WinDVD, Sonic, PAL, NTSC, Overlay, VMR9 etc.

For those people wanting that level of detail, you would be well advised to spend the 2 hours or so it would take to read the entire thread. And while your at it you may want to read the original thread entitled “Ffdshow resize to sharpen” first.
After reading all that and some practical experimentation (very important) to get a feel for what the various filters and setting do, you will be well on your way to understanding as much about ffdshow as anyone else here.

As I have said before, there are no magic settings that just work best for everyone.
You use the information you have gained on the forum to help you find the best overall compromise for you display and personal taste. This takes time and effort. There is no quick fix and instant gratification.

If you consider this all too much effort, then maybe a HTPC running ffdshow is not for you.

Most of use look on home theater as a hobby and therefore enjoy fiddling for hours to get that perfect image :D

All credit goes to Milan Cutka the developer of ffdshow for giving use such a wonderful tool.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

JBlacklow

12-02-03, 08:18 AM

Owen: I think that making this thread into a "sticky" or FAQ would be pretty hard. From all accounts, it seems as if quality is dependent on a variety of things: display type and size, computer speed (CPU and components), video card, filters, and just plain old opinion. What we do need is to compile the basics into a a single post. In threads similar to this ("Ripping 102," for instance), the first post is often changed to reflect the collected observations of the posters, edited as new information comes up. Since kejar31 is the originator, perhaps you should ask him about modifying his post.

Seeing as how there's a lot of settings to be messed with, this theoretical initial post should basically explain what ffdshow is, how it works, how to install, etc. A lot of this information is already in kejar31's first post, but some of it is outdated. I would then explain the most often-used tools (Codecs, Resize, Blur/NR, Dscaler filters, etc), and how the various settings for those tools work. Contacting ffdshow's programmers might help get some explanations. You could suggest settings, using some sort of baseline system (say, 1.8GHz, 512MB RAM, Geforce 4 or Radeon 9x00), with advanced settings for those that think they've got the horsepower.

It seems the majority of people here are using ffdshow with Zoom Player Pro, with a couple using TheaterTek. If there are other software DVD players that can use ffdshow, by all means include them. Be sure to include links to threads that explain stuff like "WinDVD filters/player will not use VMR9 on Macrovision titles" or "Tearing using PowerDVD filters."

Anyhoo, this is all just a suggestion, not a demand. Also, people need to lighten up. Yes, the thread is huge, but if you're making the time investment in HTPC, you have the time to read the whole thread. Nobody's forcing you to do any of this. On some boards, asking for information that's already in the thread will just get you flamed, and prefacing it by saying you're too lazy to read it will incur moderator wrath. I kind of wish this forum did it, too, but that would be impossible for the moderators. Don't bite the hand that helps you either. Owen may not have originated the thread, but he does seem to have invested a lot of time into this, and it was his choice to post his thoughts, of which there are many. He's not lording this information over us as some seem to think. Personally, I think Owen's just a teensy bit full of himself, but I also think he's earned it. They call it "bragging rights" for a reason. There are others in this thread that have also contributed valuable info, so this shouldn't just be "The Collected Thoughts of Owen," and we should give credit where credit is due.

Beatles

12-02-03, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by JBlacklow
[
Personally, I think Owen's just a teensy bit full of himself, but I also think he's earned it. They call it "bragging rights" for a reason. There are others in this thread that have also contributed valuable info, so this shouldn't just be "The Collected Thoughts of Owen," and we should give credit where credit is due. [/B]

Agreed except teensy is vastly understating just how full he is of himself. A most annoying and insecure human.

N3W81E

12-02-03, 12:20 PM

Owen, I for one would like to thank you for your work. Be as arrogant as you'd want to be (which i dun think u r), since all the data you shared is appreciated.

I recently bought a GWIII and was really thinking about returning it the 2nd day after using a stand-alone dvd player on it Then I discovered this thread and another (GWIII thru DVI) and started tinkering with ffdShow and ZP. Now, I LOVE my new set, the DVDs almost look as good as HD content, and I'm only using a P4-1.5. Yesterday, I even ordered a P4-3.06HT and a new mb just so I can run higher resize w/spline and denoise3d.

Good work again, Owen. :D

BrianH33

12-02-03, 01:34 PM

I would tend to agree with N3W81E ... Thanks for the good work, experimenting and explanations you have provided.

Yes the thread is long ... so is the Custom 1080i Resolution one. But if you take the time to read thru the threads, there is a hugh amount of info available.

By reading here (and other places), I have my HTPC running TT, FFDShow, Girder, Smartripper, IFOEdit, DScalar, etc all running. I have contol of all thru my Pronto 5000 and displaying my movies at 1080i. 6 months ago, I did not have a HDTV or a HTPC!

There are about 10 threads that are really important to understanding how HTPC works ... and this is one of them that Owen has contrubuted a great deal to....

Lava Lamp Freak

12-02-03, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Owen
[B]I am well aware that this thread is getting unmanageably long, and it would indeed be very useful to have it summarized.
To do this properly would be a major task and one that I have not yet found the time. If someone wants to have a go, feel free. I would be glad to assist.

I'm putting together a HTPC website and would love to put up a detailed ffdshow faq. For me ffdshow is what makes the htpc worth all of the time and money I've spent. Thanks, Owen, for the time you've taken to learn and show us what you've learned. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to discuss this here so if anyone wants more info on what I'm doing or wants to help assemble a faq please send me a p.m..

mad_arab

12-02-03, 02:42 PM

Denoise3d is doing way too much stuff with the picture here, does anyone have some more modest recommended values than default?

Another thing, are these denoise filters intelligent enough to remove film noise but not more static "noise" like the pores and freckes on people's skin?

DTSman-fr

12-02-03, 02:58 PM

What is the better sharpness algorithm?

- DMO Sharpness (from InterVideo)
- Resize&sharpen (from ffdshow)
- FLT_Sharpness (from Dscaler)
- ashap (from ffdshow)

Same question for Denoise algorithm?

Thank you

cgmoore

12-02-03, 05:13 PM

For some reason, I have started seeing major garbage in ZP. Little (and sometimes not so little) blue and red speckles appearing in darker parts of the picture, and in the black bars. Random noise.

I fiddled around with it for a while and arrived at some conclusions:

Higher res and refresh from the vid card make more of the junk to appear.
Turning off gradual denoise made it go away completely.
Turning gradual denoise back on made it come back

I have just recently added a KVM switch (to switch between HTPC and HD component from cable STB) into my mix. I never noticed it at all before this.

Have no idea why the denoise would play any role, particularly to introduce noise, where none was present before.

Gerald

Owen

12-02-03, 07:05 PM

mad_arab,

The most important parameter for Denoise3d is TIME.
The default setting of 6.00 is just too high and causes smearing.
Setting time to 4.00 seems to be a good compromise and causes no visible problems for me.
The default settings for Luma (4.0) and Chroma (3.0) work well for me.
The above settings do soften the image slightly but I compensate for this by using a bit more Descaler sharpen.

I have experimented with a combination of Denoise3d and Gradual denoise as per llamameat’s suggestion, but I just could not come up with a combination that improved on Denoise3d used alone before any resize.

I never liked Gradual denoise used before resize due to the visual artifacts it created. This is one of the reasons I started using resize in the first place. It allowed filters to be used on an up scaled image for a more subtle effect.
Denoise3d may work better after resize as well but even today’s fastest PC’s can’t cope with that.

Anyway, I find that Denoise3d works very well before resize. And is the best noise filter I have ever used. Including the filters for Virtual Dub and AVISynth. And before anyone asks, I have not used Virtual Dub or AVISynth fiters in ffdshow. :D

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

mad_arab

12-02-03, 07:18 PM

denoise3d certainly has a much more powerful and efficient effect than gradual denoise. I have a dvd with quite a lot film grain, but it seems to look very artificial, too smooth even at time:3.80. Especially on people faces, it looks like they have unnatural smooth, weird skin. It may be just because of the very grainy source, I will try more discs later. Not using any other filters.

Owen

12-02-03, 07:32 PM

mad_arab,

It does sound as if it your source DVD is the problem.

Try using Descaler sharpen as well to counteract the softer look.

Regards,

Owen

mad_arab

12-02-03, 07:47 PM

Tried going even lower, 2.3 but it's still too smooth. I'm a little reluctant to adding another filter to counter this, as I fear detail will be lost. It's not like I need the film grain to disappear completely, like this filter does. I just want it to be so little that its not annoying or hardly noticable. I don't need a shiny, too smooth image where every surface has one color and no texture, which is very much a problem now. faces are the worst.

gradual denoise however, just seems to remove noise and not texture at the low levels i've tried it at (25, 32, 40). But I realise more can be done than what this filter is cabable of. Don't feel like using anything else on this particular dvd though. Will try a few others tomorrow, thanks for the advice.

Owen

12-02-03, 08:53 PM

mad_arab,

I just retested on some different DVD’s and I can see what you are talking about.
Try using low settings like Luma 1.0 Chroma 1.0 Time 4.0
The Descaler sharpen filter really can help.
Also try adding a little Gradual denoise as llamameat suggested. I find that more then about 20 (before resize) gives me motion artifacts.

In the end it all comes down to a compromise between noise reduction and detail lose. Nothing comes for free.

At least Denoise3d dose not have the motion artifact problems of Gradual denoise.

It would be nice if we could use any filter in any order so that Denoise3d could be used before resize and Gradual denoise after. That would give us the best of both. I have requested this feature be added to ffdshow, so we will just have to live in hope that Milan will grant this wish.

While testing I was reminded of how bad Radeon Overlay can look compared to VMR9. It can be painful to rip a DVD just so VMR9 can be used with WinDVD decoders. I am hoping the new NVDVD decoder will solve that problem and retain or better WinDVD quality.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen

12-02-03, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by DTSman-fr
What is the better sharpness algorithm?

- DMO Sharpness (from InterVideo)
- Resize&sharpen (from ffdshow)
- FLT_Sharpness (from Dscaler)
- ashap (from ffdshow)

Same question for Denoise algorithm?

Thank you

There is no BEST. It all comes down to what is best for you.

They work in different ways.

I use Resize sharpen and Descaler sharpen together in moderation.

DMO Sharpen and Descaler Sharpen are similar.

Asharp and the other sharpen filters under the “Sharpen” menu have there place but are generally harsh and considered by most to be less then best.

You will have to make your own choice.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

llamameat

12-02-03, 11:24 PM

owen, what size tv, projector, monitor, do you use? I notice smearing with denoise3d at anything above luma 0.65 chroma 0.65 time 3.40 on my 65" sony, but people notice different things.

Anyway I agree that denoise3d alone is the preferred method for divx, xvid, and wmp9 encodes because gradualdenoise won't detect and remove the macroblock-noise (is that even a valid term?) that they create. But for dvds I'm sticking to my combination as the best method, I spent many a loser's hour tweaking the denoise to get it perfect.

Li On

12-03-03, 01:54 AM

Hi,

Chroma (Y/C) delay solved in ffdshow!

The Dscaler Chroma filter (which has chroma delay adjustment in both H/V directions) don't work in ffdshow. But I seem to remember there is another Dscaler filter that also does Y/C delay. So in ffdshow, I click the browse and look under Dscaler directory again. Sure I found it. It's called LuminanceShift. Select the filter file to use as a Dscaler filter in ffdshow.

On my setup (WinDVD 4.5 decoder, ZoomPlayer 3.2 Pro, ffdshow 20031028), AVIA Y/C Delay pattern has a -0.07 chroma shift. Adjust the LuminanceShift filter to +15 completely solves the Y/C delay and gives a perfect Y/C pattern.

regards,

Li On

PS: maybe we should ask the ffdshow team to let us use multiple Dscaler filters...

DTSman-fr

12-03-03, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by Owen
There is no BEST. It all comes down to what is best for you.

They work in different ways.

I use Resize sharpen and Descaler sharpen together in moderation.

DMO Sharpen and Descaler Sharpen are similar.

Asharp and the other sharpen filters under the “Sharpen” menu have there place but are generally harsh and considered by most to be less then best.

You will have to make your own choice.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Thank Owen,

Indeed, i think DMO Sharpen is similar to Dscaler sharpen.

can you give me your settings in ffdshow in order to compare with mine? Thanks

chargin

12-03-03, 05:00 AM

I am looking for help on getting ffdshow to work with my digital tv recorded mpeg2 files. I have been in this link for a while and my head is spinning a little. Ive played with ffdshow a bit and can get it to work with divx and mpeg4 etc, but it seems to have no impact on my mpeg2 files, which I watch in zoomplayer, I have the latest version of zp. My main goal is to be able to increase the gamma, I have a geforce 1 video card which has no hardware gamma control so my CRT projector looks quite dim. Any where anyone can point me for a tutorial or something would be great. I hate people who ask for too much help.... but I kinda need a step by step on this almost, it seems I may need to do something in zoomplayer and Im not sure what, I registered the ffdshow filter in the settings in zp but it didnt make any difference. I really appreciate anyone who takes some time on me :)

mad_arab

12-03-03, 06:28 AM

Owen, those settings worked much better, thanks! I do suspect they're more demanding for the cpu, because it hangs after 2-3seconds and I have to jump to another place on the dvd, where it will hang after the same amount of time again. Or could something else cause this?

Nima

12-03-03, 08:33 AM

I can not see DMO_Sharpen in Zoomplayer. How do I get access to it ?

Nima

DTSman-fr

12-03-03, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Nima
I can not see DMO_Sharpen in Zoomplayer. How do I get access to it ?

Nima

You have to create a ".filterdata" file into dvdautograph directory.

i put this small file on my web site : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/download/DMOfilter/DMO_V%20InterVideo%20Sharpness.filterdata

Then, DMO Sharpness appear in ZP :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/fr/Images/ZP-DMO-sharpness.jpg

Nima

12-03-03, 01:44 PM

Merci :D

P.S. Is there a way to vary the sharpening level ?

JBlacklow

12-03-03, 01:51 PM

Owen: Since VMR9 support is broken for WinDVD, would you suggest, say, the Sonic filter in VMR9 over WinDVD in Overlay?

Mastiff

12-03-03, 02:09 PM

I'm not Owen, but I would suggest WinDVD in Overlay (that is as long as you're on some kind of Radeon card, I don't even want to think about overlay on Matrox or Nvidia...), I have tested them A-B on my Barco Graphics 808 with two almost identical HTPCs (different Radeon cards, but that made an almost negligable impact) , and WinDVD in overlay was superior to Sonic (remember we're talking fractions of inches here, not miles) in both VMR9 and overlay. :cool:

DTSman-fr

12-03-03, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Nima
Merci :D

P.S. Is there a way to vary the sharpening level ?

Yes of course. Select DMO Sharpness filter in "filter properties"

You get this :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/fr/Images/DMO-sharpness.jpg

Owen

12-03-03, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by mad_arab
Owen, those settings worked much better, thanks! I do suspect they're more demanding for the cpu, because it hangs after 2-3seconds and I have to jump to another place on the dvd, where it will hang after the same amount of time again. Or could something else cause this?

Are you using the “Abstract DMO” filter (set to zero) with WinDVD decoders.
If you are not, that would explain your problem.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

DTSman-fr

12-13-03, 08:42 AM

Up, :)

I try to watch the differences between those sharpness filter. it is not so easy.

Here, a PAL DVD with ffdhow :

Xsharpen : (20 ; 150)
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/xsharpen.jpg

Asharp : (1.57 ; 3.14 ; 0) and high quality block filtering
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/asharp.jpg

The same image with zoom :

Xsharpen : (20 ; 150)
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/xsharpen2.jpg

Asharp : (1.57 ; 3.14 ; 0) and high quality block filtering
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/asharp2.jpg

Then, other settings with the same image :

- Normal : all filters disable
- Dscaler Sharpness : 175
- Unsharp mask : 20
- Asharp : (1.47 ; 3 ; 0)
- DMO Sharpness : Intensity 65%
- Xshapen : (20 ; 150)

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/sharpness.jpg

geofstro

12-13-03, 12:18 PM

On resizing:

From reading this thread and the ffdshow/resize thread I understand there are two main approaches:

1/ Resize to double DVD resolution, i.e. 1440x960 NTSC, 1440x1152 PAL
then let your video card resize from this to the native resolution you're
using for you pj or monitor.

2/ Resize in ffdshow directly to the native resolution you're using for your pj
or monitor.

I decided to try the second approach, although the restriction in ffdshow to values which are multiples of 16 doesn't allow me to exactly resize to my native resolution.

So I decided to change my native res using Powerstrip to a value as close as possible to 1400 x 1050 that ffdshow would also accept.

That value is 1392 x 1040.

I like the results and wondered if anyone else has tried this approach.

I'm just a little worried that I could be introducing some geometric distortion, since 1392x1040 isn't exactly 1.3333 (4:3). There is no detectable problem, such as overscan or underscan that I can make out.

Any comments will be very welcome.

Geoff

Mercer

12-15-03, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by geofstro
I'm just a little worried that I could be introducing some geometric distortion, since 1392x1040 isn't exactly 1.3333 (4:3). There is no detectable problem, such as overscan or underscan that I can make out.

Any comments will be very welcome.

Geoff

Try this one: 1408x1056. This gives you exactly 4:3, and a bit of overhead so that the graphics card can scale down instead of up.

I'm in the same boat as you though, have been trying different resolutions and so far I've ended up with 1280x720 w/Spline resizing, which is the largest resolution I can scale to with my current hardware.

Regards,
Tore K, Sony HS-20 w/HTPC+FFDShow

geofstro

12-15-03, 09:14 AM

Mercer,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try. I may run into a problem though, since this is a mite over the max res of my pj (JVC SX21) which is 1400 x 1050.

The other issue I'm still trying to determine is whether it makes sense to have a separate display resolution for 16/9. Ive tried 1392 x 784 and it does actually seem to make a difference. At least the desktop looks a little better focused than with either 1400 x 1050 or 1392 x 1040.

In fact I'm wondering, why stop there? I suppose theoretically its possible to set your desktop to resolutions that corresponded to difference widescreen aspect ratios, providing your adapter accepts it when set in powerstrip. The ffdshow resize could be used to resize to exactly that value.

I've not seen mention of anyone else trying this though, so I guess I'm really looking for validation of this approach.

Geoff

Owen

12-15-03, 07:14 PM

It is my understanding that if you feed a non native resolution to a digital display, the display will rescale it to match its native resolution. I’m a CRT man so I don’t have this problem.

To avoid using the displays internal scaler you should set Power Strip to your exact native display resolution. (1:1 Pixel mapping)

If ffdshow cannot scale to you exact display res. I would recommend scaling to double DVD res and let your display card rescale back down to your display/Power Strip resolution.

Aspect ratio can be controlled by your player (Zoom Player ?) withOUT changing resolution. There is no need to adjust ffdshow resize settings or display/Power Strip resolutions. These setting should be fixed.

Like I said, I am a CRT man so this is all theory to me. How well it works for you in practice, only you can tell.

In the end, it comes down to a comparison between the scaling quality of your projector verses your HTPC software and hardware.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

geofstro

12-16-03, 02:48 AM

Thanks Owen,

From what you and Mercer have advised it's clear that if any subsequent scaling has to take place, after ffdshow has done its resizing, it is better to scale down rather than up. This makes perfect sense to me as it's the same situation with still pictures in a program like Photoshop.

The max native resolution of my JVC SX21 being 1400x1050 means that if I want to squeeze as much detail out of DVD's as possible I will always have a trade off somewhere. When I use 1400x1050 via DVI the desktop looks a little softer to me than when I set it to 1392x1040, even though this means my pj is having to scale up slightly when set at 1:1 pixel mapping. I believe this is also benefitting the clarity of DVD's, although it's a purely subjective judgment.

For 16/9 material I find that setting a resolution of 1392x784 looks even sharper on the desktop and (i think) on film.

I don't understand why this should be and can't help wondering if limiting the SX21 to only having to project colour and detail within a 16/9 window isn't somehow producing this extra clarity I'm perceiving.

Of course, the SX21 is still having to project something to fill out the remainder of its native display; but that is just black bars.

Theoretically when the aspect ratio is set in my DVD player (yes it is Zoom Player) the effect should be the same, so perhaps it's just my imagination. In other words, because the desktop looks sharper, I believe DVD's look sharper as well.

Anyway it seems to work well for me and since achieving natural sharpness is what this is all about, I'm going to stick with it.

BTW Owen, just for the record, I'm one of those who very much appreciate the work you've carried out in this area.

Geoff

N3W81E

12-16-03, 04:52 PM

Ok, couple of questions on ffdshow filters....

1) What exactly does the 'Levels' filter do? What is it actually adjusting on the Input and Output 0-255?

2) DVD content (film(ie. movies) and video(ie. concert)) are all in progressive already, correct? So I do not need to use 'Deinterlace' filter in ffdshow, right? I use WinDVD as the vid decoder, and in ZP it is set to Force Bob or Force Weave, depending on which one looks better on a particular content. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I only need to use 'Deinterlace' if the content was recorded from a interlaced source, ie. TV shows, VHS, etc. And which methods are preferred with better PQ?

3) What exactly is Y/C Delay? I have the Avia disc, but I don't know what I'm looking for on that image. =P

Thanks guys!!

jvincent

12-16-03, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by N3W81E
Ok, couple of questions on ffdshow filters....

1) What exactly does the 'Levels' filter do? What is it actually adjusting on the Input and Output 0-255?

2) DVD content (film(ie. movies) and video(ie. concert)) are all in progressive already, correct? So I do not need to use 'Deinterlace' filter in ffdshow, right? I use WinDVD as the vid decoder, and in ZP it is set to Force Bob or Force Weave, depending on which one looks better on a particular content. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I only need to use 'Deinterlace' if the content was recorded from a interlaced source, ie. TV shows, VHS, etc. And which methods are preferred with better PQ?

3) What exactly is Y/C Delay? I have the Avia disc, but I don't know what I'm looking for on that image. =P

Thanks guys!!

1. Not sure. It probably limits the dymanic range of the output.

2. DVDs are actually encoded as interlaced. Your MPEG decoder will deinterlace for you. I'm not sure if running the ffdshow deinterlacer after the fact will do anything. ffdshow is a generic Directshow tools so other input types will need deinterlacing.

3. The Y (Luma or B/W intensity) and C (Chroma or colour) information travel seperate paths in your TV/DVD player/ etc. If the paths are not perfectly matched then the signal on the TV won't line up perfectly and you'll lose some detail.

The Y/C image in AVIA lets you check the delay. If you are perfect, then the left edge of the three coloured bars (R,G,B) will line up with the left edge of the gray bar below them that is marked 0.0. If they are off, then a different one will match. The units are in microseconds and 0.07 happens to correspond to 1 pixel time so if it's off you can use ffdshow to delay or advance Y by the corresponding amount.

AndyIEG

12-16-03, 07:31 PM

1. the level filter limited/compress/expand the input/output luma/chroma range, its the same thing photoshop can do with histogram settings to correct images from bad sources.

Tip: u got a very bright or bad looking movie with mainly black areas wich actualy arnt deep black if u compare them to ya black aspect bolders? Thats mainly cause of a bad video source and a compressed level input.

Go to the level page and enable it also enable "histogram" + "full range" now look at the left side of the graph while playing, if the graph is not using the full range in dark black scenes (there should be some graph info near 0-10 position) than the colors are shifted and not correct balanced. Now simple move the left upper slider to the point where the graph normaly ends in scenes wich should contain pure black areas, u might need take 2-3 more sample positions of the movie to dont push the slider to far right. Dont bother about the right slider since it limits the white end of the colors, wich dont make sucha big diff at all. Normaly setting the left upper slider to 6-16 works best, bud hardly depends on the input source and how much the graph is shifted to the right side.

I dont care much about the lower sliders but u can set them the same way to compress the colors range. Just experiment a bit with them. For normal dvd playback there should be no use never saw a bad level encoded dvd :) But for avi/xvid rips or cam rips of movies u can often see the right color shifting wich results in a bright bad looking movie but can be corrected with level easy :)

Example:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/neoinfo/ffdshow/levelF.jpg

Vern Dias

12-16-03, 07:43 PM

For normal dvd playback there should be no use never saw a bad level encoded dvd

I sure have, one example that comes to mind is "Demetrius and the Gladiators", black level and gamma are both too low. It is just amazing how much detail there is actually in the dark scenes.

Vern

Gary Rees

12-16-03, 08:38 PM

Changing the subject slightly, I noticed a few people mentioning the problem with playing back dvds' using vmr9 with zp/windvd/ffdshow. I've got mine working by using DVD Region-Free and setting it to remove macrovision - works a treat.

Thanks to this thread I've managed to get zp/ffdshow/windvd working OK apart from when I play NTSC dvds' (I mostly have PAL). I just cannot get rid of a wide green bar along the bottom of my screen.

Any suggestions?

geofstro

12-17-03, 02:53 AM

Gary,

Have you changed the appropriate registry setting for NTSC playback in WinDVD?

There are a couple of registry files available for download, one for PAL the other for NTSC. You just double click on the appropirate file.

I can't remember where I got mine from now. A search here should turn them up. If you need them; but can't find them, let me know and I'll send you my copies.

Geoff

Owen

12-17-03, 05:16 AM

A couple of notes on “Levels”

The “Histogram” graph does not work during play with Mpeg2 source on some builds of ffdshow. If you play an Divx of Xvid file, it always works.

It is a good idea to enable “Full Range” to get a better histogram view.

Levels, normally affects Luma and Chroma equally. Not color.
Think of “Levels” as a more versatile Contrast and Brightness control.

The Input control discards all data to the left of the Black (left hand) marker and to the right of the White (right hand) marker. It then expands the remaining data to fit the output settings.
The legal range for most video material is 16-235. It can be useful to restrict the video to that range to prevent white peaking and deepen blacks. Gamma has to be raised to about 1.2 to compensate for mid tones and maintain overall picture balance.
To do this you would set “Input ” (Black) marker at 16 (to discard useless below black data) and “Output” (White) marker at 235 (to limit above white data).
That is just one example. If you play around with this filter, you will soon get the hang of it.

I am certain that many people will find it useful.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

JBlacklow

12-17-03, 07:36 AM

Gary Rees: Dude, I totally forgot about using DVD RF to disable Macrovision! Too bad I just started work, 'cause now I want to go home and test it. Good call. Oh, and bbq@KL's registry files can be found at http://webhost.bridgew.edu/ylam/ AFAIK.

Owen: Using your settings for "Levels" makes the picture almost unbearably dark. Did you recalibrate your white and black levels on your projector and/or software? If so, what did you recalibrate? I've been in a quandary about what level of calibration to use to adjust my settings. FFDshow? ZP Overlay? Projector? I'm using Avia as my test disk.

AndyIEG

12-17-03, 08:23 AM

I just wonder in wich order all those ffdshow filters works best? Im using a rezised picture and some other filters atm my order is as shown:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/neoinfo/ffdshow/orderF.jpg

PLS: keep in mind i normal play xvid/divx back not DVD and i use a monitor.

1 Blur & NR: i use noise3D (luma 2, chroma 2, time 2 + HQ) i need thsi first cause after rezise i dont have enuff cpu power for it.

2 Rezise & AR: now i rezise to my native monitor resolution using "bicublin" and add some sharpening (luma 1.0, chroma 0.5)

3 Picture prop & Level fix: i normal use these now and set things up, i do this now cause i think sharpen and postprocessor will work better if they get correct colored input? but not sure

4 Sharpen: normal i use asharp (1.5, 3, 0) or i just disable and go with the already add reziser sharp

5 postprocessing: now i use Nic's postprocessor (just Luma deblock (x,y) and dering) i do need those since many xvid/divx still block and have ringing, deblock works great with nics without soften the picture too much. But nics dering soften the picture/details and of course it also gets rid of the ringing.... is there a other way to reduce the ringing in xvid/divx sources without soften the image/details too much?
I dont use chroma since it changes my picture colors somewhat strange.

6 Noise: now i add some new noise just a bit values from 10-15

so far that worked for me but like i sayed main problem is dering without smooth to much details away... any ideas/tips or errors in the filter order?

trbarry

12-17-03, 08:34 AM

Like many filters, Levels may be based upon the Avisynth filter by the same name. I haven't used it but you might read the Levels Avisynth doc here (http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=Levels).

- Tom

trbarry

12-17-03, 08:43 AM

Anybody know if there is an interface to add new filters to ffdshow somehow without rebuilding the whole thing?

There have been a couple times where I thought it would be nice to add something I tested out in Avisynth first.

- Tom

jvincent

12-17-03, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by trbarry
Anybody know if there is an interface to add new filters to ffdshow somehow without rebuilding the whole thing?

There have been a couple times where I thought it would be nice to add something I tested out in Avisynth first.

- Tom

You can point it to Dscaler filters without rebuilding. You just navigate to the appropriate Dscaler .Dll and select it. The downside is that you can only have one Dscaler filter selected at a time.

coder090

12-17-03, 02:41 PM

Greeting ffdshow gurus,

I've gotten started with ffdshow, but I'm having a performance problem. I am using it with Zoom Player at the moment.

When using WinDVD decoders it plays about 2 seconds of the DVD and it appears the CPU loads up and the picture freezes while the audio continues to play. After it freezes the the CPU load drops.

I then tried switching to PowerDVD for the decoders, and it plays without freezing, but I have stuttering issues. The CPU load does get pretty high.

I have a feeling I may have some Windows settings incorrect, like DMA, overlay, or maybe something with ATI? If not, it may be my low end processor or even a Macrovision problem?

If I play the DVD in WinDVD itself, it plays fine. If I play it with Zoom Player w/o filters (ie. ffdshow) it appears to play fine as well. When I enable the ffdshow filter, with all options in ffdshow disabled (resize and NR) it plays, but you can notice a little choppiness. When I enable the options in ffdshow it gets much worse. I have tried a smaller resize resolution and such, but remember, just passing through ffdshow with no options enabled caused unacceptable playback.

Here is my setup:
2.5 ghz Celeron
Radeon 8500 AIW 128mb
512 mb ram
WinXp
Latest ZoomPlayer
Latest ffdshow

I am going to say that I don't think it is the video card because of the CPU load. I think there is something else going on. I know it's a Celeron, but would the lack of L2 cache really kill the video playback when just passing through ffdshow w/o rendering? I can play games like UT2003 in my native resolution flawlessly. It's the video that's killing me.

Would the Cinemaster decoders be viable instead? Would Theatertek be a better solution? I have a feeling the performace increase with these, if any, would be marginal, so I guess I need to find the root problem.

Any advice would be highly appeciated.

pcaulfie

12-17-03, 05:23 PM

coder - Are you using the WinDVD Abstract filter? That needs to be enabled. Had the same problem with lockups and stuttering and that was the fix. I think you have to edit your registry. Try here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2833536#post2833536)

coder090

12-17-03, 06:00 PM

Thanks,

I will try that when I get home. But to clarify, I switched from the WinDVD decoders to the PowerDVD decoders because WinDVD was locking up. I have a feeling that your suggestion may just get rid of the lockup issue, but I am affraid it will still have similar results (choppy as hell) once I enable it and get past the shear lock up point.

Wouldn't you expect PowerDVD to perform similarly to WinDVD once the WinDVD abstract filter is enabled properly?

I am leaning towards a software/config issue, possibly with ATI drivers, overlay, or something. I saw some mention turning DMA off. Is this advisable?

Thanks all!

N3W81E

12-17-03, 07:25 PM

Thanks for all your input guys!!
Off to another night of tweaking my PC and ffdshow.

Another quick question...
Deinterlace option in Ffdshow only need to be used when the source is not Mpeg, since Mpegs will be deinterlaced by the WinDVD vid decoder I use in ZP, and Divx/Xvid/etc will NOT be deinterlaced by the WinDVD video decoder, am I understanding this right?

Thanx guys!!

pcaulfie

12-17-03, 11:04 PM

Coder, I'm using a similar setup to yours.

AMD Athalon XP 2500 Barton
ATI AIW 8500DV 64mb
512 mb ram

When I was battling ffdshow setup, I ended up wiping all my ATI software out, including the capture drivers and Multimedia Center software. I then reinstalled the display drivers only. Catalyst 3.7 or 3.9??? (Don't remember). No problems and since I don't use MMC for anything I don't miss it. I wouldn't imagine why you would ever turn DMA off?

Try and check programs running in the background. I would even notice some problems when my wireless card was geting a weak signal, too much going on in the background. I also made some registry and general XP tweaks to free up resources. Run a google search on XP Tweaks and you will find a bundle. There are some good tweaks to optimize XP for video.

AndyIEG

12-18-03, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by N3W81E
Thanks for all your input guys!!
Off to another night of tweaking my PC and ffdshow.

Another quick question...
Deinterlace option in Ffdshow only need to be used when the source is not Mpeg, since Mpegs will be deinterlaced by the WinDVD vid decoder I use in ZP, and Divx/Xvid/etc will NOT be deinterlaced by the WinDVD video decoder, am I understanding this right?

Thanx guys!!

aye u are right
windvd and all other dvd player just use the installed dshow divx/xvid decoder, since they can just decode mpeg files with there own decoder not divx/xvid avi's. Windvd ships with a old 5.05 divx decoder and powerdvd just use whats installed i think. Just reinstall divx 5.1.1 after windvd and it will use the 5.1.1 or set ffdshow to decode xvid/divx stuff. For the deinterlace filter u dont need it enabled in ffdshow for xvid/divx since 99% of all avi's arnt interlaced at all :)

Owen

12-18-03, 08:47 AM

JBacklow,

You know what happens when you assume don’t you? :D

I never said that I used the “levels” setting I described.
I was just using those settings as an example.
That being said, I do not get a dark picture with the settings I described. Did you adjust the gamma to about 1.2 to compensate?
With those setting, only the darkest and brightest parts of the image are affected.
The mid tones look normal.
You could use the exact opposite of those settings if that is what your system needs.

I use a Toshiba HD CRT rear projector and do most of the adjustments on the TV.
I leave Brightness, Contrast, Color, Gamma at default on the HTPC unless a particular video needs tweaking.
I use various software test tools for adjustment, but mostly my eyes. And a 6500k calibrated Sony G500 21” monitor as a color - gray scale reference.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

JBlacklow

12-18-03, 09:20 AM

The Gamma was the key. The picture still looks a little dark, much like when I put a ND2 (negative density) filter on my PJ lens for both light and green control, since it's an LCD. At least now it doesn't look like everything is taking place during an eclipse:).

I didn't get a chance to run more than the THX Optimizer from Attack of the Clones, but I'm going to use AVIA tonight to calibrate the PJ properly. Just out of curiosity, do you use the "Levels" filter? I'm guessing it's not as necessary with CRTs as it is with digital projectors, especially the cheaper low-lumens ones such as my own (Boxlight 1HD, a Sanyo Z1 clone).

ETA: Owen, you stated that levels "normally affects Luma and Chroma equally. Not color." But in the AviSynth page that trbarry links to a page back, the writer states: When processing data in YUY2 mode, Levels only gamma-corrects the luma information, not the chroma. Gamma correction is really an RGB concept, and I don't know how to do it properly in YUY2. However, if gamma = 1.0, the filter should have the same effect in RGB and YUY2 modes. But aren't we setting up ffdhsow to be using YUY2 under "Codecs"? Does this mean color settings might be off? Right now, I have it set to use YUY2 and YV12, if that makes a difference.

Also, just for chips and pickles, my filter order is:
Blur/NR - Gradual denoise=25, Denoise3d=1.55, 1.55, 2, HQ
Resize/Sharpen - 960x540, no AR correction, Lanczos @ Parameter 9, 1.55, 1.55
Levels - as above.

Owen

12-18-03, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by JBlacklow
ETA: Owen, you stated that levels "normally affects Luma and Chroma equally. Not color." But in the AviSynth page that trbarry links to a page back, the writer states: But aren't we setting up ffdhsow to be using YUY2 under "Codecs"? Does this mean color settings might be off? Right now, I have it set to use YUY2 and YV12, if that makes a difference.

I think this guy is talking about his implementation of a "Levels" filter for AVI Synth. Not ffdshow.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

N3W81E

12-18-03, 12:40 PM

After tinkering with the Levels filter, I found that leaving Input as default (0,255), setting Output to (10,235), and leaving Gamma at 1.0 give me the results that I want. I didn't really test it with any calibration (AVIA, DVE), but most of the crushed blacks and overexposed whites are gone for me.

FYI, I'm using a HTPC w/ATI9700 thru DVI on a Sony GWIII 42". =)

coder090

12-18-03, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by pcaulfie
Coder, I'm using a similar setup to yours.

AMD Athalon XP 2500 Barton
ATI AIW 8500DV 64mb
512 mb ram

When I was battling ffdshow setup, I ended up wiping all my ATI software out, including the capture drivers and Multimedia Center software. I then reinstalled the display drivers only. Catalyst 3.7 or 3.9??? (Don't remember). No problems and since I don't use MMC for anything I don't miss it. I wouldn't imagine why you would ever turn DMA off?

Try and check programs running in the background. I would even notice some problems when my wireless card was geting a weak signal, too much going on in the background. I also made some registry and general XP tweaks to free up resources. Run a google search on XP Tweaks and you will find a bundle. There are some good tweaks to optimize XP for video.

Thanks... I've checked my process list and there is nothing chewing up siginifact memory or CPU. I'm just stuck at this point. I watched a DVD on PowerDVD last night and it was great. I still want to take advantage of ffdshow though. I wish TheaterTek had a demo to download, because it would be awesome if it were just a weird problem with Zoom Player on my PC. Does a demo copy exist, or a version I can try. If it works, I would happily buy it. But if it gives me probs like Zoom Player I would not want to waste the money.

I'll keep trying new things...

Thank you.

JBlacklow

12-18-03, 01:42 PM

coder090: Your problem still sounds like the WinDVD Abstract_DMO is not being enabled or running properly. Just to make sure, are you using full registered or licensed versions of ZP Pro, WinDVD, PowerDVD, and whatever sound filter you're using? Trial versions won't work.

Also--and I know it's extreme--but you should try uninstalling all your DVD software (including WinDVD, ffdshow, ZP, and Reclock) and your ATI Catalyst drivers. Then reinstall them one-by-one starting with the ATI drivers, then WinDVD, then the ffdshow, then Reclock, and finally ZP, restarting after each program is installed.

Okay, this is going to be long, but if you're really into HTPC, you should be used to endless fiddling. This ain't a hobby for the impatient. Hell, this part should be part of the front page of this FAQ, IMO. Run WinDVD once, with a DVD, and disable hardware acceleration in the Video settings. Close WinDVD. Run the Abstract_DMO registry file from bbq@kl's webpage from a couple pages back. Run ZP and set up the filters for Video, Audio, Reclock, ffdshow, and Abstract_DMO. Hit "Manual Save", exit setup, and exit ZP. Open it back up, throw in a DVD and see if it works smoothly. If so, stop the DVD and config ffdshow with the suggested Resize/Sharpen settings. Then try each additional setting one at a time to see if it chokes.

My hardware is a Dell Pentium4 2.4 with 768MB RAM and a Radeon 9500Non-Pro, and I'm running ZP Pro with WinDVD video (Abstract_DMO enabled and set to 0), Sonic audio, Reclock 1.2, and the latest alpha of ffdshow, with the settings from my last post to Owen. And it's smooth as silk, as long as I kill unneccessary processes (AIM, QT tray, MyHD tray, etc.).

coder090

12-18-03, 02:46 PM

Ok, sounds like I have my work cut out for me. I am using the trial version of ZP Pro. I thought it was a fully uncrippled version, just limited to 30 days? That is what the website claims. WinDVD and PowerDVD are full versions.

I tried enabling the Abstract filter ("Intervideo_Abstract_DMO" or something like that). It is a check box in the same ZP filter list as ffdshow, right? Now quite sure how to set it to 0, as it is just a check box. The problem is, when I do that, I get a very very odd picture. Hard to explain, but it's like a pyschodelic look where the picture is washed kinda dark with crazy colors highlighting the colorful parts (like neon blue and pink).

Trust me, I've been fiddleing for a while now. I haven't given up. Thanks for the help. I know I seem hopeless and this problem is obviously not typical, but thanks for the continued help. I will try these recent suggestions when I get home.

For video rendering, what is the best place to start, just to try to get it working? Overlay, VRM9, etc?

Thanks!

JBlacklow

12-18-03, 03:35 PM

You don't seem hopeless, just in need of some encouragement. Anyhoo, you need to set the Abstract_DMO (you've enabled it correctly) to 0. The easiest way to do that is to download the registry file from bbq@KL's website and run it. The abstract effect is what makes it psychedelic, but also keeps the video running. Setting it 0 negates the first effect. You can also set it to 0 from within WinDVD itself. It's accessible from the control bar somewhere. For right now, you can only use WinDVD with Overlay due to Macrovision protection. The workaround for VMR9 Windowed is either to use a program that can disable MV (RemoteSelector, DVDIdle or Region-Free), or to rip your DVDs to hard disk.

AndyIEG

12-18-03, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by JBlacklow
For right now, you can only use WinDVD with Overlay due to Macrovision protection. The workaround for VMR9 Windowed is either to use a program that can disable MV (RemoteSelector, DVDIdle or Region-Free), or to rip your DVDs to hard disk.

dont use VMR9 renderer with yv12 or any YUV colorspace input since its bugged and add a greenish touch to all movies, overlay is the fastest and bugfree :)

coder090

12-18-03, 03:43 PM

Ahhh... sweet, ok. Very encouraged now. Sounds like I have overlooked a very important part now. Crossing fingers, hope this works. I'll try this evening when I get home. Thanks a ton!

coder090

12-18-03, 05:18 PM

Oh, I was just thinking about this... you said setting the filter to 0 will fix that weird look it has, but even when I have it enabled it is still really poor performace. I hope setting to 0 will not only correct the picture, but the performace as well. I'll report back when I get home. =)

Owen

12-18-03, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by JBlacklow

Open ffdshow config and disable all codecs except for "Raw Video", which should be at "All Supported" and select only the YUY2 and YV12 colorspaces.

Keep up the helpful posts JBlacklow, but I would just like to clear up some misconceptions created in the first posts in this thread.

It is completely unnecessary to disable ANY codecs in ffdshow. If you do you will break support for DIVX, Xvid and many other video types.

It is also unnecessary to disable any color spaces.

Do not enable “use overlay mixer” in ffdshow. It is not required and can cause problems.
Overlay mixer can be enabled in Zoom Player if required.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen

12-18-03, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by AndyIEG
dont use VMR9 renderer with yv12 or any YUV colorspace input since its bugged and add a greenish touch to all movies, overlay is the fastest and bugfree :)

I have no noticeable color problems with VMR9 on my systems, with both Radeon and Geforce video cards.

You are correct that Overlay is much faster, but if you have the hardware to run VMR9 smoothly, I find VMR9 gives me a noticeably better image.
The Antialising and Anostropic Filtering that can be used in VMR9 seems to smooth out compression artifacts better and color seems to have higher bit depth and looks more natural. I can sometimes see slight color banding-artifacts when using overlay even on a Radeon. When I use VMR9 the problem is gone. This is probably due to the VMR9s improved filtering.
Overlay looks sharper then VMR9 but I still prefer the smoother, more natural and less digital look of VMR9

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

geofstro

12-19-03, 04:24 AM

I also had a chance to carry out some tweaking last night and was very pleased with the results. I have a couple of questions though.

Please be patient with me, since I think I'm just about getting the hang of this ffdshow/resize thing; but I'm still closer to the start of the learning curve than the end.

We want to resize as much as possible up to our native display resolution to give the sharpen filters the best chance of doing there job. On the other hand the more we resize the tougher a job it is for the CPU so the harder it becomes to apply other filters without dropped frames or stuttering.

So for 16/9 material why not resize to a 16/9 resolution in ffdshow and also set your desk top to that same resolution in powersrtrip? In my case 1392x784.

This means I'm resizing to considerably less in the vertical plane than in the horizontal plane, which should give me more leverage to apply other filters. I haven't verified this yet; but in theory…

If I do this am I losing any advantage in the resizing?

Thanks again for your patience folks!

Geoff

Liersi

12-19-03, 04:46 AM

First, thanks for all the effort that went into making this ffdshow resource!

I've been trying to see if ffdshow resize could give me a better image than the bicubic scaling on my Radeon8500. I'm not too big a fan of tweaking the image otherwise, but the scaling does interest me.

Really only have one question atm, please let me know if I've got this right: Let's assume I'm using ffdshow to resize to my digital display's native resolution, which is set up to show 1:1 pixel mapping with zero overscan (or 100% overscan, whichever way you look at it). Now for a lot of DVDs I have to slightly upscale the image from default resolution as they don't fill the entire screen (slight to noticeable window-boxing). Using ffdshow to scale to panel resolution leaves this window-boxing intact. If I want to get rid of it, I will again have to upscale ever so slightly after the ffdshow resize.

Now the question: this last scaling step would be using the Radeon scaling after the ffdshow scaling, right? Wouldn't that nix all possible improvement? Do I have to set this up in a way where I'm using ffdshow resize and then leave the image alone safe for positioning?

Many thanks in advance for your input!

AndyIEG

12-19-03, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by Owen
I have no noticeable color problems with VMR9 on my systems, with both Radeon and Geforce video cards.

You are correct that Overlay is much faster, but if you have the hardware to run VMR9 smoothly, I find VMR9 gives me a noticeably better image.
The Antialising and Anostropic Filtering that can be used in VMR9 seems to smooth out compression artifacts better and color seems to have higher bit depth and looks more natural. I can sometimes see slight color banding-artifacts when using overlay even on a Radeon. When I use VMR9 the problem is gone. This is probably due to the VMR9s improved filtering.
Overlay looks sharper then VMR9 but I still prefer the smoother, more natural and less digital look of VMR9

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

try read this thread i started http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=339075

the bug is confirmed but seems the greenish effect differs from mode to mode so yv12 input for vmr9 looks realy bad but yuy2 conversion + vmr9 looks a bit better

pls do me a favor and set ffdshow to yv12 output only and zoomplayer to vmr9 than play an xvid avi and compare the screenshots/multiple instances direct with ffdshow set to rgb32 + vmr9 mode

maybe that bug just happens with avi aka non dvd playback?

can u take 3 screenshots and post them here? one with yv12 + overlay mixer + normal render and one with yv12 + vmr9 and rgb32 + vmr9, just force the input modes with ffdshow colorsettings, maybe test a dvd and avi file :)

THX

PS: for me it just seems vmr9 smooths the image to much its not as sharp as the overlay image, but all depends on your feeling whats "natural" :)

coder090

12-19-03, 12:48 PM

Ok,

I did the registery tweaks and other adjustments to ZP and ffdshow. It now appears it runs fairly smooth through ffdshow with no filters on. Turn filters on (resize and/or NR) and playback is unacceptable. I have a P4 1.6 ghz in another machine. I am going to try to swap them out and check for better performance. Perhaps a celeron isn't up to the task, even at 2.5ghz. Anyone else here use a celeron or duron with acceptable results?

Thanks!

AndyIEG

12-19-03, 01:23 PM

i got a little problem with lanczos and spline resize, if i use lanczos resize some horizontal line artefacts appeer and if i use spline the picture colors change a bit compared to loncroz and i also get those horizontal lines?

Only with bicublin it works with my sharpness settings, if i set sharpness to 0 luma , chroma the lanczos filter seems work better at least those lines are "nearly" gone but still there.

Why those lines happend in lanczos mode? im using the latest ffdsow version any idea since seems all use lanczos and dont have those problems even with sharpen added? btw im watching normal avi/xvid on my monitor not dvd.

take a look yourself what i mean

http://mitglied.lycos.de/neoinfo/compare/lanczos.jpg -> u can prolly see the lines

http://mitglied.lycos.de/neoinfo/compare/spline.jpg

http://mitglied.lycos.de/neoinfo/compare/bicublin.jpg -> her eu see no lines? maybe bug in lanczos?

PS: btw what are those "parameter" settings for in teh rezise settings?

llamameat

12-19-03, 02:23 PM

Here's a penny,
For those of you dissapointed in the resulting image that denoise or sharpening filters provide, ffdshow can still be of benefit to you.

Just resize to the same resolution that you output to your tv. If you output at 960x480, then resize to 960x480. If you output at your tv's native resolution (which generally is the best way to go, although it image doesn't always fit well) then resize to that resolution. If you use lanzcos, or spline, or even sinc, then you are bypassing the bicubic resizing that your video card's hardware is doing and you will better preserve REAL detail (as in, detail that is on the dvd, but normally lost because of scaling issues).

Then, if you're happy with the results, play around with sharping/denoising. If they are unsatisfactory, then just stick with the resizing alone, as you're still enjoying the benefits of better resizing (although forcing the decoder into software mode may offset this somewhat....choose windvd platinum and associated tweaks for best software decoding). I've spoken about this before, but it's just difficult for me to read all these posts where people are resizing far past what they are outputting to their tv's. Sure, this provides more room for resize-sharping to do it's thing, but it also requires the hardware to scale it down again (bicubically). While this may provide a smoother looking image, it's at the cost of REAL detail.

If your tv's native res is a lowely 856x480 (i.e ED plasma), then lanzcos or spline, or sinc resize to this res and work with it from there. Descaler sharpen would be the way to go when you only have limited resolution to work with (as oppossed to resize-sharpen).

It's all about scaling first, baby! Then worry about the other neato filters (gradual denoise, denoise3d, sharpen). If you still crave the smoother, but sharper image, pump up the denoise3d settings and this will smooth things over nicely.

P.S I'm not completely talking out of my ass here.

llamameat

12-19-03, 02:27 PM

Andy, what version of ffdshow are you using....i will try to replicate these results and see what can be done about it.

AndyIEG

12-19-03, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by llamameat
Andy, what version of ffdshow are you using....i will try to replicate these results and see what can be done about it.

im using ffdshow-20031128.exe

i just downloaded all version till 2002 now and testing :)

so far it seems in version ffdshow-20030816.exe this bug dont appeer, i just will finish testing all version and see wich versions have that bug.

I got the versions from here: http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/

AndyIEG

12-19-03, 03:31 PM

oki i found these 2 bugs

bug 1. lanczos and spline reziser filter not working perfect and produce those lineing artefacts

bug 2. the AR after rezising is not applyed again or messed up, so if u playback avi and set just your native monitor resolution the AR is wrong and u need set it manually in ffdshow, ffdshow even shows the rigth AR at "keep original AR xy" but that button does nothing at all, it dont change anything like the older versions.

versions/bug 1 found /bug 2 found

11.28.2003 / yes / yes
10.28.2003 / yes / yes
09.27.2003 / no / yes
08.16.2003 / no / yes
07.11.2003 / no / yes
06.29.2003 / no / yes
05.23.2003 / no / no <-- latest "official" release
04.22.2003 / no / no
10.10.2002 / no / no

the AR bug is in all versions from 06.29.2003

PS: at least thats happend for my system (gf3 ti200 overlay mixer, 53.03 driver)

Li On

12-20-03, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by llamameat
If your tv's native res is a lowely 856x480 (i.e ED plasma), then lanzcos or spline, or sinc resize to this res and work with it from there.

It's all about scaling first, baby!

Sorry to let you down! My result is exactly the opposite!

My projector Panansonic AE200 native resolution in 1:1 mapping is 856x480. Whatever resize I tried in ffdshow (lanzcos, spline or sinc, you name it) at whatever upscale resolution (desktop 856x480, 1440x960, 1280x720 etc) with or without resize sharpen apply, I got HEAVY aliasing artifacts all over the image, that is with Overlay output. I can't use VMR9 on my old Radeon 8500.

I'm using 20031028 ffdshow (mostly Sharpen->unsharp), but I don't use resize.

regards,

Li On

liquid_fire

12-20-03, 07:08 PM

Aight, i'm using zoom player power dvd video audio and nvidia audio. I select ffdshow as post processing but when I try and play it always says power dvd can't connect to ffdshow! WHy?! Its like:

(cyperlink videao/sp decoder.Videoout --> FFshow.videoprocessor.IN)

Additonal Info: pins did not accept connection
Incompatability?
It works without ffdshow enabled.

I have latest zoom player too 3.2 beta I believe

shunx

12-20-03, 10:14 PM

I downloaded the 20020617 version, which works with Xvid and DivX files under WMP, but nothing happens when I adjust settings when playing DVD files under PowerDVD 5 or WMP. Any help?

llamameat

12-20-03, 10:30 PM

Li On, you sure that maybe turning down your tv's sharpening wouldn't solve this? Perhaps it's high enough now that you needed the previous blurring that standard hardware scaling provided.

Fat Dave

12-20-03, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by AndyIEG
oki i found these 2 bugs

bug 1. lanczos and spline reziser filter not working perfect and produce those lineing artefacts

bug 2. the AR after rezising is not applyed again or messed up, so if u playback avi and set just your native monitor resolution the AR is wrong and u need set it manually in ffdshow, ffdshow even shows the rigth AR at "keep original AR xy" but that button does nothing at all, it dont change anything like the older versions.

versions/bug 1 found /bug 2 found

11.28.2003 / yes / yes
10.28.2003 / yes / yes
09.27.2003 / no / yes
08.16.2003 / no / yes
07.11.2003 / no / yes
06.29.2003 / no / yes
05.23.2003 / no / no <-- latest "official" release
04.22.2003 / no / no
10.10.2002 / no / no

the AR bug is in all versions from 06.29.2003

PS: at least thats happend for my system (gf3 ti200 overlay mixer, 53.03 driver)

I'm using 11.28.2003 with Lanczos, and have no artifacts nor aspect ratio problems.

I'm running a 9800 pro with 3.10 cats and TT for playback (WMP for avi). Sys is a 2400+.

Anyone else having problems here?

Fat Dave

12-20-03, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by shunx
I downloaded the 20020617 version, which works with Xvid and DivX files under WMP, but nothing happens when I adjust settings when playing DVD files under PowerDVD 5 or WMP. Any help?

Under Codecs, have you changed the "Raw video" format to "All Supported"?

shunx

12-21-03, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Fat Dave
Under Codecs, have you changed the "Raw video" format to "All Supported"?

I don't see an option that says "all supported", but if you mean selecting every codec option I see there, that didn't seem to work either.

[I see the follows: XVID, DIVX 3/4/5, MP43/2/1, H.263+
and "decode using Xvid"]

[OK, I read that PowerDVD doesn't work with FFdshow]

AndyIEG

12-21-03, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by shunx
I don't see an option that says "all supported", but if you mean selecting every codec option I see there, that didn't seem to work either.

[I see the follows: XVID, DIVX 3/4/5, MP43/2/1, H.263+
and "decode using Xvid"]

[OK, I read that PowerDVD doesn't work with FFdshow]

With zoomplayer powerdvd decoder and ffdshow works.

set "RAW Video" to "All supported" (scroll down at codecs) try also the "use overlay mixer" on/auto/off setting.
With raw video ffdshow adds after every video decoder between decoder and renderer.

Use these 2 ffdshow versions for testing:
http://www.ligh.de/software/ffdshow/ffdshow-20030523.exe
http://www.ligh.de/software/ffdshow/ffdshow-20030927.exe

http://mitglied.lycos.de/neoinfo/ffdshow/codecF2.jpg

For xvid selecet xvid (need to have xvid installed) and for div5 u can select libavcodec as decoder since off. divx 5.1.1 has that blocking decode bug still. As "IDCT" at misc options select "XVID". For div3 i use the org. divx codec since i get soem strange color errors sometimes with libavcodec.

DISABLE all other codec settings! Ffdshow cant realy decode mpeg1/2 yet.

PS: for the players Zoomplayer/Crystal Player/Media Player Classic are nice and beat WMP by far. Just try them and wich u like more.

http://www.inmatrix.com/files/zoomplayer_download.shtml
http://www.crystalplayer.com/
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/guliverkli/mpc2kxp6472.zip?download

shunx

12-21-03, 07:24 PM

Thanks AndyIEG, I'm trying to get ZoomPlayer 3.00 to work, but I get this error:

Filter Connection Error:
[Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder].Video Out --> [Overlay Mixer].Input()

Even though I have PowerDVD installed and "Verify selected setup" says the decoders are properly selected.

I tried either of the Video Renderer options and have selected "use overlay mixer" in FFdshow as well. What's wrong?

Vern Dias

12-21-03, 08:46 PM

I have never been able to make PowerDVD and ffdshow work together.

Just about any of the other popular players, WinDVD, Sonic Cineplayer, nVidia all work with ffdshow.

Vern

usabrian

12-21-03, 10:13 PM

Power DVD5 does for me, but its a bit more buggy, or shall I say CPU Intensive.

Brian

shunx

12-21-03, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by usabrian
Power DVD5 does for me, but its a bit more buggy, or shall I say CPU Intensive.

You got it to work with FFdshow with or without ZoomPlayer?

shunx

12-21-03, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by liquid_fire
Aight, i'm using zoom player power dvd video audio and nvidia audio. I select ffdshow as post processing but when I try and play it always says power dvd can't connect to ffdshow! WHy?! Its like:

(cyperlink videao/sp decoder.Videoout --> FFshow.videoprocessor.IN)

Additonal Info: pins did not accept connection
Incompatability?
It works without ffdshow enabled.

I have latest zoom player too 3.2 beta I believe

That's like my error message:

Filter Connection Error:
[Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder].Video Out --> [Overlay Mixer].Input()

llamameat

12-22-03, 04:50 AM

Fat Dave is right about the strange lines in the newest version for lanzcos resize. I've moved back to the 9/27 version. I only noticed them in very dark scenes (and I was also watching .avi files), but they are definitely there and not present with the earlier versions.

shunx

12-22-03, 06:46 AM

Well after installing WinDVD, I can now start DVDs with Zoom Player using either PowerDVD or WinDVD as video decoder, VMR9 as video renderer, FFDshow as additional filter.

FFDshow now works, thanks for the help.

(However I still can't use overlay control, so I can't adjust brightness, contrast, etc...)

Owen

12-22-03, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by shunx
(However I still can't use overlay control, so I can't adjust brightness, contrast, etc...)

You can adjust VMR9 output by adjusting your desktop settings in the display drivers.
Settings that affect the desktop affect VMR9.

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

AndyIEG

12-22-03, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Fat Dave
I'm using 11.28.2003 with Lanczos, and have no artifacts nor aspect ratio problems.

I'm running a 9800 pro with 3.10 cats and TT for playback (WMP for avi). Sys is a 2400+.

Anyone else having problems here?

like llamameat wrote they arnt visible all the time u mainly can spot them in lower bitrate encodings and they mainly appeer if the outputed lanczos scaled image is not a direct multipler of the org. video. So for dvd playback if u choose 1440x... u will have a hard time spot them. But for normal avi playback with all those crazy settings u can see them.

For the AR bug if u scale the image direct to a multipler than there is no AR bug since u use them same AR in scaling. Try some xvid/divx avi's and scale to your native resolution and try watch them. Means dont scale the movie to the same AR as the source and u will aslo have that AR bug.

PS: could also be a nvidia based problem? not sure about this.

shunx

12-23-03, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Owen
You can adjust VMR9 output by adjusting your desktop settings in the display drivers.
Settings that affect the desktop affect VMR9

My settings in display->settings->advanced doesn't seem to affect the video. I'm using a GF4Ti. What kind of videocard are you using? Can you use Overlay controls in FFDshow and use overlay mixer under ZoomPlayer? Thanks.

Owen

12-23-03, 02:42 AM

Shunx,

Look in display->settings->advanced->Color Correction
Set “Apply color changes to:” Desktop.
You can now adjust your Desktop Brightness – Contrast.
These changes will also affect VMR9.

You can only use overlay adjustments if you are using overlay as the output renderer.

I don’t recommend making large changes to the default display driver settings as quality can be degraded.
You should use ffdshows “Picture properties” to make large adjustments.
You should also look at adjusting your display so that large adjustments are not required on the HTPC.

I use Radeon 9700 and 9600Pro for my HTPC's. I also have Geforce 5200 desktop and notebook PC's.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

DTSman-fr

12-23-03, 09:09 AM

About "Dering".

I can't see effect of dering postprocessing effect on DVD picture :(

Must I to order filter into ffdshow and let Dering the last of filter?

JoshuaL

12-23-03, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Liersi
Really only have one question atm, please let me know if I've got this right: Let's assume I'm using ffdshow to resize to my digital display's native resolution, which is set up to show 1:1 pixel mapping with zero overscan (or 100% overscan, whichever way you look at it). Now for a lot of DVDs I have to slightly upscale the image from default resolution as they don't fill the entire screen (slight to noticeable window-boxing). Using ffdshow to scale to panel resolution leaves this window-boxing intact. If I want to get rid of it, I will again have to upscale ever so slightly after the ffdshow resize.

Now the question: this last scaling step would be using the Radeon scaling after the ffdshow scaling, right? Wouldn't that nix all possible improvement? Do I have to set this up in a way where I'm using ffdshow resize and then leave the image alone safe for positioning?
I have essentially the same question as Liersi. Does a slight video card resize (after using ffdshow to resize to double DVD rez) greatly reduce quality or undo the gains from using ffdshow in the first place?

Owen

12-24-03, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by DTSman-fr
About "Dering".

I can't see effect of dering postprocessing effect on DVD picture :(

Must I to order filter into ffdshow and let Dering the last of filter?

Dering just does not work very well. So dont bother with it.
Use Denoise3d in stead, before resize.

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen

12-24-03, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by JoshuaL
I have essentially the same question as Liersi. Does a slight video card resize (after using ffdshow to resize to double DVD rez) greatly reduce quality or undo the gains from using ffdshow in the first place?

No.

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Stasulos

12-24-03, 01:59 AM

What's the latest built of FFDshow people use anyway? I am especially interested in FFDshow/Zoomplayer combo.

Owen

12-24-03, 03:53 AM

Originally posted by Stasulos
What's the latest built of FFDshow people use anyway? I am especially interested in FFDshow/Zoomplayer combo.

09.27.2003 is the latest good build.

Owen
__________________________
The ffdshow resize sharpen dude

DTSman-fr

12-24-03, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by Owen
[B]Dering just does not work very well. So dont bother with it.
Use Denoise3d in stead, before resize.

Thanks,

For the moment i use only Gradual Denoise because I think Denoise3D is not so easy to calibrate : I don't want to lose a natural image.

Stasulos

12-25-03, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by Owen
09.27.2003 is the latest good build.

Owen
__________________________
The ffdshow resize sharpen dude

Where did you get it? I can't see it on sourceforge :confused:

DTSman-fr

12-25-03, 04:38 AM

You can download it here : http://divxstation.com/softwareId.asp?sId=123

Owen

12-25-03, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by DTSman-fr
Thanks,

For the moment i use only Gradual Denoise because I think Denoise3D is not so easy to calibrate : I don't want to lose a natural image.

Denoise3D is currently the best post processor for Divx or Xvid video that I have used.
Just keep the time set to 4.0 or less and adjust the other settings as required.
It cleans up poorly compressed video very well.
That is not to suggest that Divx or Xvid are poor compression systems. Far from it.
But a lot of it is over compressed.

Regards,

Owen
___________________________
The ffdshow resize - sharpen dude

Stasulos

12-25-03, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by DTSman-fr
You can download it here : http://divxstation.com/softwareId.asp?sId=123

Isn't this strange that official site was updated last time more than a year ago and downloads have to be made from some place, which does not have any apparent links to the original site. Somebody please enlighten me...:confused:

DTSman-fr

12-25-03, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Owen
Denoise3D is currently the best post processor for Divx or Xvid video that I have used.
Just keep the time set to 4.0 or less and adjust the other settings as required.
It cleans up poorly compressed video very well.
That is not to suggest that Divx or Xvid are poor compression systems. Far from it.
But a lot of it is over compressed.

I agree with you. Denoise3D is very good for Divx, Xvid.

I have not enough supply to use Denoise 3D with my AMD Thunderbird 1.33Ghz. But I will try with my AMD XP2600 as soon as possible... Thanks

Mastiff

12-25-03, 07:48 PM

Dream on, at least if you're resizing as well... I can't use any of the denoise filters without turning the movie into a slideshow, and I use a 2600. But I do resize to XGA and use dScaler sharpen, so if you're only denoising, it would probably work. I believe this is the one place where I would have to admit that Pentiums are better because of the hyperthreading... :cool:

Owen

12-25-03, 09:18 PM

Without resize, an Athlon 2600XP should handle Denoise 3d ok. My 2800XP system can do it without problems, but not with large resize as well.

Denoise3d should be used before resize for best results. CPU load is too high to use after resize anyway.

I agree that P4 hyperthreading is worthwhile, as is Dual channel RAM on P4 systems.

My overclocked Dual Channel P4 (3.5Gig) can handle Denoise3d, Descaler sharpen, Resize and sharpen (1440x1152 Lanczos) and VMR9 output without any problems. I even have enough CPU to run other filters (Deinterlace, Levels, Picture Properties, and Audio Equalization) if required.

Anyone seriously into ffdshow should think about upgrading to a highly clocked (3.2+) dual channel P4 system. There is no substitute. Near enough is just not good enough.
You either have enough power to run all the filters you want smoothly, or you do not.

For ffdshow use, a good P4 system with a Radeon 9600 Pro will outperform ANY Athlon system with an expensive Radeon 9800, and will probably cost less money.

Anyway, a P4 upgrade is very, very cheap compared to a good display.

Regards,

Owen
___________________________
The ffdshow resize - sharpen dude

Mastiff

12-26-03, 07:30 AM

Anybody tried the new Athlon 64 for this use yet?

kami

12-29-03, 03:47 AM

Well, I finally reached video nirvana after 3 days of neverending tweaking and testing. It came down to basically "less is more." I don't have the slightest clue how some of you can tolerate the resize sharpness settings above 1.0 (or above 0.75 for that matter). It makes the image look artificial to me...loses the film-like quality that my set top player had.

These are my final settings, and it runs flawless on my Athlon 2400+, 1.25GB RAM, ATI AIW 9800 Pro using component out cable, SB Audigy SPDIF out using Zoom Player with Cinemaster video decoder and Reclock.

In this order:
Resize to 960x540, Lanczsos, 0.4 Luma Sharpen, 0.15 Chroma Sharpen
DScaler Sharpen @ 40
Gradual Denoise @ 35

I'm outputting to my Toshiba 50h82 at 1776x1000 (1080i).

I tried turning off filters and doing a straight bicubic resize to 1776x1000, and COUNTLESS other combos but the one above proved most pleasing. No extra ringing is introduced, compression artifacts aren't overemphasized, and the picture still carries the same soft film-like look that my set top player gave me, but the picture DETAIL (not "sharpness") is greatly enhanced.

Very happy with this setup :D

RyanDinan

12-29-03, 09:50 AM

Kami,

I agree - less is definitely more. I use the offset filter to correct a slight Y/C delay, Dscaler sharpen at 80, and gradual denoise at 20. This gives a very nice "film-like" image on my Sony KP53HS10. I honestly did not see much improvement using Spline or Sinc resize - besides, I didn't have the horsepower to do it all the way up to 1920x1080i. If I cant do that, I don't think it's very benificial to resize partly with ffdshow, and then scale up the rest of the way with the video hardware....It just seems like more steps in the chain.

-Ryan

kami

12-29-03, 11:40 AM

What's a Y/C Delay and what are the symptoms?

The only reason I upscale partly with ffdshow is because I like the effects of dscaler and denoise better on an image that is slightly upscaled, but that's just me. :) I think I tried every possible combo....and I'll probably try a hundred more.

mcfeast

01-04-04, 07:16 AM

Can anyone tell why my overlay color settings are jumping to brightness-->98% and contrast -->134% every time that I go in to ffdshow settings when DVD/video is running. This happens without any ffdshow filters selected, but I can avoid this by selecting "overlay control" in ffdshow.

Another problem is that when I use VMR9, my black level is way too bright and I cant figure out why.

I have Radeon 9000 Pro, newest ffdshow and ATI drivers.

Regards,

Esa

stylinlp

01-05-04, 12:54 PM

I hate to say this but I tried FFDshow for a few weeks and just uninstalled it last night. What a dfferance. Playing back movies without FDDshow is much better! Suddenly the hazy glazed screen window was lifted and now I have a clear picture once again. Looks like FFDshow is not for me.
I used the recommended settings of Unsharpen and Denoise of 18. I even tried up to 40 but it just looked worse. I remember when I first installed this program and used it with Theater Tek I saw immediatately a screen door of filth over my nice clean picture. Adjusting the two settings smoothed it up some or made it more noisy. But didn't let the picture come thru clearly. Soon as I uninstalled FFDshow it was like waching a window away of a thick layer of filth on it.

AMD1000, 256megs RAM, Radeon 9200se, WinXP Pro, Theater Tek, Catalyst 3.9, Barco 800 BD crt projector on a 7' wide screen of Gatorboard.

RyanDinan

01-05-04, 01:13 PM

stylinlp -

Sorry to hear about this...But I think your disappointment with ffdshow is directly related to the filters you were using.
Unsharpen mask is not the filter you want to be using....

Have you tried using the Resize filter? If your computer has enough horsepower, try scaling up to the resolution of your display (or at least the vertical resolution), and add a bit of luma and chroma sharpening (I use 1.30 for each). I use the sinc resize algorithm to scale to 720x1080, then let my video card scale the horizontal to 1920 (1920x1080i). The difference is fairly noticeable.

If you cant use resize due to cpu restrictions, try using Dscaler sharpen instead of unsharpen mask. It has a much better effect on the image.

-Ryan

stylinlp

01-05-04, 01:35 PM

select the Blur & NR option set to 18 (I tried 40 too)
unsharp mask set to 18 (I tried up to 40 too)
I did all this per the FFDshow FAQ at the beginning of this thread.

I have a AMD 1.0 so resizing is not an option so I didn't even try.
I guess I could try Descaler Sharpen instead of Unsharpen mask...

Thue

01-05-04, 03:25 PM

stylinlp-> If you copy the dvd files to your HD (dvddecrypter), it will free som resources to use the resizing feature. I have a slow setup too with AMD 1.4 and GF4mx440 and I can do lanczos resize at 960x540 smooth.

pcaulfie

01-05-04, 09:57 PM

Why wouldn't one want to use unsharp mask? Not that I disagree but I'm currently using it as it is supposed to improve contrast. I still do a regular sharpen after resize and denoise. I'm pleased with my results but was just curious if anyone else is using unsharp mask and why I wouldn't want to use it?

Fat Dave

01-05-04, 10:16 PM

stylinp - I'm not sure why you were getting a "hazy, glazed screen window" effect with the settings you listed. I tried those settings on my system, and got a slightly smoothed, somewhat sharpened (albeit jaggy) picture. Definitely neither hazy nor glazed. I'm wondering if perhaps something else was at work.

I'm trying to remember - is the Barco 800 svid or composite-in only? I am wondering if there is maybe a problem with trying to send the sharpened image out over svid or composite? Or maybe some of these optimizations don't take kindly to going 480i to CRT projos? Just pure speculation...

Like many, I use a Lanczos resize (with very light sharpen settings) and a touch of gradual denoise, and notice a dramatic improvement with ffdshow versus without (DVI-out to DLP projo, 120" screen).

Fat Dave

01-05-04, 10:18 PM

pcaulfie - Speaking only for myself, I do all of my sharpening during the resize. I find those sharpen filters to be much better (less detrimental) than the standard unsharp filter.

You may find better results turning off unsharp and maybe playing a bit with the resize sharpen filters.

What method of resize are you using?

stylinlp

01-05-04, 10:31 PM

Im feeding my Barco 800 with 5 BNC breakout cable from RGB output of my Radeon 9200se. Im sure that resizing the image with Resize in FFDshow would look much better. But unfortunately I only have a AMD 1000. My motherboard can support up to AMD1.4 maybe I should upgrade it. But whats funny. AMD 1.4 cost the same as Fry's AMD Duron 1.6 ESC motheroard combo deal.

Did I hear that right? we can use Sharpen filters without using Resizing?

I will be using PowerStrip to run a res of 1440x960@72hz when I replace this Barco 800 with my new Ehome 8500 in a few weeks.

geofstro

01-06-04, 12:33 PM

Happy new year to y'all.

After reading this entire FAQ during the holidays, taking notes and trying various settings, I have some observations/questions regarding "average frame rate achieved"

My preferred settings are now Resize to 1408 x 1056. My ATI 9800 pro then needs to downscale slightly to 1400 x 1050, which is the native max of my JVC SX21 with 1:1 pixel mapping.

VMR9 looks better than overlay, and I tend to use moderate amounts of denoise3D and gradual denoise depending on the DVD. I use lanczos resize with sharpen between 1.5 and 2.0 for Luma and Chroma, again depending on the DVD.

When I look at the Player Information dialog under ZP and compare the listed frame rate with the average frame rate achieved, I find the average frame rate achieved is dropping below the listed frame rate.

For example for PAL the listed rate is,of course, 25 fps and the highest average I'm getting is 24.970. This is using overlay. If I use VMR9 the average drops further to 23 point something. Dropped frames remain at zero in all cases.

The only way I can get the average frame rate to hover at 25.00 and above is to limit my resize to 1280 by 1024 and set my desktop/projector res to the same.

Subjectively DVD playback seems reasonably smooth; but surely It can't be as smooth as it should be as long as the average is below the listed frame rate? And I don't understand why the dialog is not showing any dropped frames under these conditions.

In this thread most people speak about how high their CPU usage gets through using various filters.

I'd be very interested in what average frame rates anyone else is achieving with various ffdshow options enabled, and learning more about the significance of these figures.

I'm beginning to wonder if I've just been kidding myself that I can get away with the options I've been applying.

Perhaps I need to tweak XP until the Average frame rate jumps to 25 (30 for NTSC) with the options I've chosen and /or rip each DVD for Hard drive playback?

I don't want to have to use 1280x1024, since I can't fill my screen at that res.

For the record it's a P4 3.06 gig, hyperthreading on + 1 gig memory and an ATI 9800 Pro.

Any thoughts?

geoff

Owen

01-06-04, 05:12 PM

geofstro,

You are asking to much of your hardware.
When useing the settings you mentioned, a 1280x1024 resize is all you could expect with a 3.06 P4.
I was using a 3.06 running at 3.3 and still could not get all the filters I wanted to use running smoothly with VMR9. (overlay is less strain on the system)

I have know moved to a P4 running 3.5Gig on a 1Gig front side bus with dual channel PC4000 DDR and can run Denoise3d, Descaler sharpen, Lanczos resize 1440x1152 and VMR9 perfectlly with CPU to spare.

I have said this before, but there is no substitute for a high clocked dual channel P4 system for ffdshow use.

stylinlp,

Your 1G Athlon is just not powerfull enough for effective ffdshow use.
Even my Athlon XP 2800+ is to slow to get the best out of ffdshow.
If you read further into the thread you will understand why Unsharpen and Gradual Denoise without resize is less then best.
This thread was started a long time ago and there have been many developments and much experiance gained, so the earlly posts are outdated.

Regards,

Owen
__________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude

Owen

01-06-04, 05:12 PM

RyanDinan

01-06-04, 05:18 PM

Owen -

I have a quick question for you....

I use TheaterTek 1.5.56 with the 20031128 version of ffdshow.
I was wondering how you select between using the VMR9 and the overlay with ffdshow...
Is it accomplished by unchecking the "Use Overlay" box in ffdshow?
For some reason, I thought TT could not use the VRM9 - so even with the 'use overlay' box unchecked, am I still using the overlay? Or am I actually using VRM9? How can I be sure?

Thanks for clearing this up for me!

-Ryan Dinan

dstroot

01-06-04, 06:31 PM

TheaterTek does not support VMR7 or VMR9 period. Yet...

RyanDinan

01-06-04, 07:23 PM

Thanks for the info!
One more quick question....

I was messing with the "Use overlay" box under the Codec section in ffdshow, and I noticed that there were 3 states for that box... Unchecked, "X'ed", and "squared" (filled with a green square instead of a X).
If the box was X'ed, I would get no picture when playing TT. If the box was unchecked, I'd get a very nice picture, with cpu useage at 60% or so (P4 willy at 1.8GHz). If the box was 'squared', I'd still get a picture, but my cpu useage went up to around 75-80%. The quality may have been better - it was hard to tell. But obvoulsly something was different....
Can anyone explain to me what these different options are?

Thanks!

-Ryan

geofstro

01-07-04, 04:30 AM

Owen,

Thanks. I'm using two 512 Meg PC-3200 400 Mhz DDR memory modules in this system and figured this together with the P4 3.06 gig would be sufficient for anything I threw at it.

Perhaps I'll try overclocking. Do you think that would help?

I'm using Recklock as my audio renderer and have to admit I haven't been paying too much attention to it; but last night I realised it was showing Yellow instead of Green and within the properties it complained that it couldn't synch with the PAL dvd, since my video timings were not a multiple of 25 HZ.

I didn't know about this constraint before. If I run powerstrip at 1400x1050 I can't get above 60HZ and I don't want to drop down to 50.

When I run at 1280x1024 at 75HZ, reclock is happy with PAL and turns green :)

I know this thread isn't about Recklock; but this definately also relates to the Average Frame Rate I can achieve.

My question was really, should I be concerned if this Average Frame rate drops a little below 25 FPS with PAL if the movie appears smooth?

I can only hit 25 Average Frame rate at 1280x1024 running overlay instead of VMR9.

I understand there are some contraints with my hardware; but if Recklock will only sync up properly if the timing is a multiple of the frame rate (25HZ) it looks like I would still have this problem even if I threw more CPU power, etc at it, since my pj needs to run at 60HZ when using 1400x1050.

I'd be very interested in other peoples experiences of using Reclock and how it relates to the Average Frame rates they're achieving.

Thanks again.

geoff

Owen

01-07-04, 05:10 AM

"Perhaps I'll try overclocking. Do you think that would help?"

It will help, but not with PAL played at anything other then 50,75 or 100Hz.

"When I run at 1280x1024 at 75HZ, reclock is happy with PAL and turns green :)"

Sounds like you have found the answer:D

"My question was really, should I be concerned if this Average Frame rate drops a little below 25 FPS with PAL if the movie appears smooth?"

If it looks good why worry.

"I understand there are some contraints with my hardware; but if Recklock will only sync up properly if the timing is a multiple of the frame rate (25HZ) it looks like I would still have this problem even if I threw more CPU power, etc at it, since my pj needs to run at 60HZ when using 1400x1050."

That’s the unfortunate truth :eek: New projector? :D

"I'd be very interested in other peoples experiences of using Reclock and how it relates to the Average Frame rates they're achieving."

I have never paid much attention to average frame rate as long as it looks good. You almost never get exactly 25fps anyway. Same as you would not get exactly 30fps for NTSC source.

Regards,

Owen
__________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude

geofstro

01-07-04, 08:56 AM

Owen,

Thanks again:

I'm very happy with the Projector. After comparing quite a few I ruled out DLP's since my wife sees rainbows and they give her a headache. The JVC also looks more film like to me than anything else we tried.

I haven't exactly solved my problem, since as I said I want to fill the screen and I can't do that at 1:1 pixel mapping at anything other than 1400x1050. At 1280x1024 my only option to fill the screen would be to change the pj setting from 1:1 pixel mapping to "panel" mode and that would negate the advantage of using resize

Anyway, you've answered my question on how much significance to attach to the average FPS and I've learned something new re PAL and the multiple of 25HZ constraint.

I'm gonna try tweaking XP by turning off non-essential services and ripping the DVD's to HD for playing, to see if that will get me further before daring to try overclocking.

geoff

Owen

01-07-04, 03:42 PM

Have no fear of overclocking. P4's overclock very reliably.
You should be able to get 3.2 or better.
I am getting 3.5 with the standard Intel heat sink and fan running on only 7 Volts (half speed).
I have overclocked every PC from a 386 up over the past 15 years and never had a problem, so go for it.

Owen

llamameat

01-07-04, 03:53 PM

Fear your memory though, that's generally the first thing to fail when you overclock.

On another topic, any else having difficulties using SINC resize? This is the most CPU consuming type of resizing, but I have a machine which can handle it (3.2, hyperthreaded, apg8x, 9800pro, super machine). The problem is that with whenever I go over 50% cpu utilization with SINC resize running, the video loses sinc with the audio. With lanzcos I can resize to outrageous settings (like 2496x2496) and so long as i am under 90% or so the video keeps up nicely. So any idea why the threshold for sinc working is a puny 50% cpu ultilization?

RyanDinan

01-07-04, 04:15 PM

Actually, I believe SPLINE is the most cpu intensive...At least on my machine. I can run SINC at 720x1080 just fine on my willy 1.8 P4, but slpine just runs too slow...

Sorry to bring this question up again, but I think it was overlooked ;) -
What do the three different states of the "Use video overlay" box, under the CODEC section? You have have the box 'X'ed, 'squared', or unchecked...
Thanks!

-Ryan

loftus

01-07-04, 08:01 PM

Anyone else notice a performance improvement when running FFSSHOW under Win2003 vs WinXP? Even after disabling alot of performance-sapping services in WinXP (e.g. Indexing) - as per Black Vipers guide - Win2003 just seems... quicker.

So if you've hit a wall with the filters you can use in FFDSHOW may you should give win2003 a try.

geofstro

01-08-04, 05:05 AM

Looks like I don't need to overclock afterall. Last night I had another tweaking session and I found I could set my desktop to 1400x1050 at 50HZ.

Being as low as 50hz bothers me a bit since I'm used to using CRT monitors where this would cause unacceptable flicker. On my pj though it results in a beautiful picture using a PAL source DVD. Since 50hz is a multiple of 25, Reclock doesn't complain and turns green. I was using Kundun, which is a nice transfer IMO and I happened to be at the scene that takes place in candlelight and thought at first the flicker was being caused by my 50hz timing; but, of course, it was the candlelit scene, Duh!

I understand from Owen's comments not to pay too much mind to the Average Frame rate; but it still gave me a warm fuzzy feeling to see it hovering very close to 25fps.

I can use lanczsos resize to 1408x1056 plus the combination of dScaler's sharpen filter, the resize sharpen settings and a combination of moderate Gradual denoise and Denoise 3d, rendered with VMR9.

I could really appreciate why it's necessary to spend time fine tuning these filter settings to get the best combination of sharpness to bring out the detail and the denoise filters to smooth out any additional resulting grain. I used neutral surfaces such as plain walls, the sky, etc, to show me when I had gone too far with the denoise settings, since the artifacts they introduce seem to show up most clearly in those less busy areas.

NTSC is, of course, a whole different ball game and it looks like I'll end up with completely different settings for NTSC. Reclock complains if the vertical timing is not a multiple of 24. I found I could get 1440x960 at 72hz. Reclock turned Green and I have perfect synch. Just out of curiosity I found the average frame rate to hover just below 24fps. At first I was expecting near to 30 fps, then I remembered reading a long explanation in the read me file of Reclock explaing that all film is at 24 fps and why 30 fps is used for NTSC. I didn't really understand it, so I'll have to re-read it; but I guess it explains why NTSC needs to have a timing which is a multiple of 24 and PAL a multiple of 25.

I find it weird that I can get 1440x960 at 72hz under powerstrip for NTSC; but not 1400 x 1050 at 75 HZ or 1440x1152 for PAL. Also at the 1440x960 setting a small part of my desktop is shaved off on the right and I couldn't get it back by adjusting front porch, back porch, etc.

Anyone have any clues to offer me on this? Powerstrip still baffles me at times.

geoff

jvincent

01-08-04, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by geofstro

I find it weird that I can get 1440x960 at 72hz under powerstrip for NTSC; but not 1400 x 1050 at 75 HZ or 1440x1152 for PAL. Also at the 1440x960 setting a small part of my desktop is shaved off on the right and I couldn't get it back by adjusting front porch, back porch, etc.

Anyone have any clues to offer me on this? Powerstrip still baffles me at times.

geoff

Did you try changing your sync width as well? If it is too large it will shave off some of the desktop. You might need change it and the porches together. Just make sure you've locked the total geometry and refresh rates when you're changing those values.

geofstro

01-08-04, 09:25 AM

jvincent,

Thanks a lot. I'll give it a try this evening.

geoff

llamameat

01-08-04, 12:14 PM

Just thought I'd answer my own question (read me last post). I strongly suspect now, that 50% cpu utilization actually means 100% utilization when you have hyperthreading on and you're running another application on the second processer.

I think XP was dedicating a program I run in the background to one (virtual) processor, and using all remaining cpu power for the second. The problem is that task manager actually acts like you have two full 3.2 processors installed and displays its cpu utilization accordingly.

So essencially one virtual processor was only reporting 1% utilization and the other 100%, so task manger averaged that to 50% even though the CPU was being fully used. Dang...this means my machine is not as super-fast as I thought..doh!

Owen

01-08-04, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by loftus
Anyone else notice a performance improvement when running FFSSHOW under Win2003 vs WinXP? Even after disabling alot of performance-sapping services in WinXP (e.g. Indexing) - as per Black Vipers guide - Win2003 just seems... quicker.

So if you've hit a wall with the filters you can use in FFDSHOW may you should give win2003 a try.

Thanks loftus,
Very interesting.
Can you provide more info on performance improvement?
I wonder if Windows MCE is any good.

Owen

Owen

01-08-04, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by llamameat
So essencially one virtual processor was only reporting 1% utilization and the other 100%, so task manger averaged that to 50% even though the CPU was being fully used. Dang...this means my machine is not as super-fast as I thought..doh!

LOL..... Looks like it's time to overclock then :D

In all seriousness though, if you don't increase the operating voltage of the CPU the risk of damage due to overclocking is effectively nil.

I have overclocked about 200 PC's and Mac's over a 15 year period and NEVER damaged a CPU or anything else.

Untill we can buy 4Gig+ systems, overclocking a P4 is the only way to get maximum ffdshow performance.

Owen

__________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude

loftus

01-09-04, 04:51 AM

The best example of the real-world performance boost with using win2003 is video capturing. With my Athlon Xp 2000+ I can (almost) capture at 640x480 to mjpeg, and with win2003 I can capture the full 720x576 (both at 25 fps).

Not sure if the difference is becuase Win2003 comes with minimal services activated out-of-the-box or if its due to something deeper.

JBlacklow

01-09-04, 10:08 AM

When you guys refer to Windows 2003, are you referring to MCE?

merlyn29

01-09-04, 11:05 AM

ok I have been lurking reading this FAQ for months now gaining valueable info on ffdshow. just had to ask a few things.

Owen --- > we seem to have very similar computers. Might be fun to compare our settings etc for ffdshow. I have a P4 2.4c HT O/C to 3.28 running stock intel heatsink. I am particularly interested in how you have your RAM setup. Was wondering if it is better to have a fast overall CPU (mhz) and slow memory timings or fast memory settings and lower overal mhz when using ffdshow. brief info about my machine
abit ic7 max 3 motherboard
intel P4 2.4c HT @ 3.28
mushkin 3500 black level 2 ram tim 2 3 2 5 @ 5/4 divider
250 gig wd 7200 rpm drive w/ 8 megs cache system drive
ATI AIW 9600 pro
with all this I can still easily max out my cpu when using ffdshow mattering on resize and settings.

so which is better fastest ram settings or highest overall (ghz) clock setting and bus speed? just wondering ??

jammarjim

01-09-04, 11:22 AM

Owen,

Is there any chance you could post the most recent "correct order" and settings for the average 2 - 2.5GB PC?

What is most beneficial to most people?

Thanks for your help.

Mastiff

01-09-04, 01:46 PM

JBlacklow, I think they're talking about Windows Server 2003 @ workstation, which basically is re-activating most of the stuff that's deactivated by default in Server, like hardware acceleration of audio and video. :cool:

Owen

01-09-04, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by merlyn29
ok I have been lurking reading this FAQ for months now gaining valueable info on ffdshow. just had to ask a few things.

Owen --- > we seem to have very similar computers. Might be fun to compare our settings etc for ffdshow. I have a P4 2.4c HT O/C to 3.28 running stock intel heatsink. I am particularly interested in how you have your RAM setup. Was wondering if it is better to have a fast overall CPU (mhz) and slow memory timings or fast memory settings and lower overal mhz when using ffdshow. brief info about my machine
abit ic7 max 3 motherboard
intel P4 2.4c HT @ 3.28
mushkin 3500 black level 2 ram tim 2 3 2 5 @ 5/4 divider
250 gig wd 7200 rpm drive w/ 8 megs cache system drive
ATI AIW 9600 pro
with all this I can still easily max out my cpu when using ffdshow mattering on resize and settings.

so which is better fastest ram settings or highest overall (ghz) clock setting and bus speed? just wondering ??

Welcome aboard merlyn29,

Your existing setup is optimal for your hardware.
RAM should be running at about 218Mhz and that is about as far as PC3500 DDR will go.
Also there is not much chance of pushing the CPU much higher either.
Running the RAM at 1/1 divider is faster but would only give you a CPU speed of about 2.6Gig so with your hardware, CPU speed is more important. 2.6Gig is to just to slow.

I opted for a P4 2.8C and PC4000 DDR (Dual channel) because I wanted to use 1/1 memory timing.
I was lucky enough to get a good CPU that runs at 3.5G so I can run my RAM at its max 250Mhz 2.5/4/4/6 @ 1:1 divider.
This system is noticeably faster then my previous 2.8C at 3.3G on 5/4 divider (Dual channel DDR) or my 3.06 at 3.3G with single channel DDR system.

Owen

__________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude

Owen

01-09-04, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by jammarjim
Owen,

Is there any chance you could post the most recent "correct order" and settings for the average 2 - 2.5GB PC?

What is most beneficial to most people?

Thanks for your help.

Hi jammarjim,

It’s been a while since I used a 2-2.5G system.
What is your native display resolution?
Resizing to double DVD resolution (Lanczos) will be taxing on a 2-2.5 system.
At lower resolution you may be ok, or you can use Bicubic resize to save on CPU.
Resize sharpen works well for most people as it dose not increase noise and EE as much as most other sharpen methods.

So try these filters in order:
Decaler sharpen (optional. Good for fine detail)
Resize (Bicubic (faster) or Lanczos (better)) and Lumma, Chroma sharpen.
Gradual denoise 20-30

The Denoise3d filter is very nice but it requires too much CPU for a 2.5 system.
It is used BEFORE resize at something like L 1.0, C 1.0, T 4.0, HC.

Owen

__________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude

Li On

01-10-04, 03:02 AM

Hi,

Can anyone runs both Deinterlace->Dscaler->MoComp2 AND Denoise3D?

Now I upgrade to a P4 2.8C with HT (though still on my old Asus P4PE with only 1 512M DDR400) but still get quite a bit of stutter when running these 2 filters.

regards,

Li On

N3W81E

01-10-04, 03:22 AM

Can anyone runs both Deinterlace->Dscaler->MoComp2 AND Denoise3D?

I can use those 2 together just fine on my DivX content.... I don't use Deinterlace with DVDs because that is done with the WinDVD decoder

I use these filters for DVD in this order on a 3.0HT...

Levels
Picture Properties
DScaler Sharpness
Denoise3D
Resize (1440x960, Spline)

Works perfect using Overlay Mixer, stutter on VMR9

merlyn29

01-10-04, 09:53 AM

ok just for the record what settings i use in ffdshow on my p4 3.28 HT (overclocked) outputing to a 32" Widescreen monivision High-Definition DTV/Monitor Model : DM-6552SW (yes this was purchased here from avsforum on powerbuy)
filter are in this order
-dscaler sharpness filter set to max 255 (to sharpen denoise overall smoothing of image )
-sharpen using unsharpen mask on strength of 8 (i turn this off for older movies but for new digital dvds it really helps
-blur and NR - denoise 3d, luma 4.00, chroma 3.00, time 4.00 HQ (overall this makes the image smoother but a bit too soft hence the strong dscaler sharpen setting)
-resize and aspect 1360 x 768 (monivisions max resolution)
--settings under resize lanczos, luma sharpen 1.3, chroma sharpen 1.3

I only use these settings for DVD viewing on the monivision on the computer screen (21 inch IBM p260 ) it appears a bit to sharp with a slight dotted halo around objects. looks great on the monivision though.

i am constantly changing these settings so this is the current setup ... feel free to try my setup if you have the computing power. Also would be happy to try any of your suggestions in my setup ....

thanks

Li On

01-11-04, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by N3W81E
I can use those 2 together just fine on my DivX content.... I don't use Deinterlace with DVDs because that is done with the WinDVD decoder

Ok, I'll try again.

"Can anyone runs both Deinterlace->Dscaler->MoComp2 AND Denoise3D?
" when playing normal DVD?

I know only video content DVD needs deinterlace so we don't use deinterlace most of the time (when playing normal movie. I just want to know if anyone can get these 2 filters with a smooth playback and if so please list your hardware config so I know what will be my next hardware upgrade!

Thanks in advance.

regards,

Li On

debennett2

01-11-04, 09:47 AM

N3W81E,
How big are these divx movies (file size)? Are these feature length movies? The reason I ask is I would like to see what general quality these files are and possibly we could pick each other's brain on settings for file playpack (rather than DVD playback which is all anyone covers in here). Maybe we could start a new thead for ffdshow and media file playback...

AndyIEG

01-11-04, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by debennett2
N3W81E,
How big are these divx movies (file size)? Are these feature length movies? The reason I ask is I would like to see what general quality these files are and possibly we could pick each other's brain on settings for file playpack (rather than DVD playback which is all anyone covers in here). Maybe we could start a new thead for ffdshow and media file playback...

FFdshow and media file playback is nearly the same than dvd playback... mainly u want/need add some postprocessing filters and noise filter for movie feeling.

The biggest problem for divx/xvid/3ivx playback is the "ringing" and "blocking" in movies and how to fix them with the avaible filters without smoothing the sharpness/details away.
Also xvid/divx decoding needs lesser cpu power (at least at my system) so u have plenty cpu power left for filters.

The most importand filters are the postprocessing (dering) and level filter. For deblocking i use the codec build in divx/nic's xvid filters since they dont smooth details away for dering i use the mplayer at 512 since the nic's in ffdshow smooths the movies to much and the deblock of mplayer sucks also.
my order is:

level fix
picture prop.
blur&nr (denoise3d with low timing 1-3 seconds only if u have the cpu power)
postprocessing (mplayer dering at 512, dont use the luma fix crap)
rezise (lanczos with 0.5, 0.5 sharpen)
asharp (1.35,4,0)
new noise (10-15,0)

JDLIVE

01-11-04, 07:22 PM

Question on using the DScalar sharpness filter, I simply browse to the DScalar directory and select the .dll, correct? It shows up as FLT_Sharpness.dll, just want to make sure that is correct. Thanks

Vern Dias

01-11-04, 07:40 PM

Correct.

Vern

JDLIVE

01-11-04, 10:51 PM

Thanks Vern

Owen

01-12-04, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Li On
Ok,
"Can anyone runs both Deinterlace->Dscaler->MoComp2 AND Denoise3D?
" when playing normal DVD?

Li On

Li On,

I'm afraid I have news and its all bad.
I cannot smoothly run MoComp2 and Denoise3d alone with VMR9 output on my system so I would say that it is not possible, with even the fastest of today’s hardware.
Maybe with a 4G plus system.

What is so great about MoComp2 ?
Descaler deinterlace filters run very poorly in ffdshow for some reason. They seem to need fare more CPU power then when they are run inside Descaler.
Have you tried the built in deinterlacers in ffdshow?
I personally like the ffmpeg deinterlacer and it dose not strain the CPU.

Owen

dpeng

01-12-04, 06:13 PM

Can't believe it! Was not interested in improving picture quality with my 2-year XGA LCD projector until lately... With my new XGA DLP AND self-built 2.35:1 108" gray screen, it came to a point that I finally sit down and read this FAQs and it pays back so well I just can't believe what I have got now with my Radeon 7500!

Thank you all. Words simply not enough...

Done every necessary steps and fired it up last night with a co-worker who is also a gamer for over 20 years. Updated WinDVD to 5.35.20 (correct me if wrong), 20030523 ffdshow configured only resize to 1024x768 using Lanczos algorithm/Luma sharpen 1.0/Chroma sharpen 0.5, Reclock 1.3, un-check "Fix VMR9 Scaling Bug" in Zoomplayer and used VMR9, not overlay. The playback of "Gladiator" and "Gangs of New York" were jaw dropping!

Two issues waiting to be resolved: s/pdif through my C-Media 8738 stuttered and Zoomplayer's "verify selected setup" does not report any audio renderer being registered (Help!). And my AMD Barton 2500 oc'ed to xp3200+ rating with 2x 256MB DDR400 still shows slant lines artifact with rich content/fast moving scenes.

However the quality improvement has made me happier ever.

Mars1

01-13-04, 04:54 AM

dpeng,

So happy to see a new "happy customer", as what OWEN calls "The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude" ! ! !

For your SPDIF problem, just take a full look on the readme.rtf joined to reclock and the recent thread on this problem:
Reclock PAL NTSC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3193304#post3193304)

Owen

01-13-04, 08:27 AM

Welcome aboard dpeng,
Glad to see you read the thread and are reaping the benefits.

The problem with “slant lines artifact with rich content/fast moving scenes” is often called tearing and is a common problem with VMR9.
I suspect that the 7500 is to slow to use VMR9.
A Radeon 9600Pro, XT or better should fix the problem.
You can try enabling Vsync correction for VMR9 in Reclock control panel and adjusting the slider a little at a time to see if that helps with the tearing.

I also recommend using the 27 Sep 2003 build of ffdshow.
It has a very nice noise filter called Denosie3d plus some other minor improvements.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

dpeng

01-13-04, 09:09 AM

I'm overwhelmed and cannot get back to troubleshooting further, even after 24 hours now. Nonetheless, the ongoing support is awesome!

Thanks dudes, to your big and warm hearts!

kami

01-13-04, 11:46 AM

What do you guys think is the better solution?

1. Cinemaster video decoder with VMR9, and DScaler sharpen @ 128 in ffdshow.

2. WinDVD Platinum 5 video decoder with OVERLAY, Lanczos resize to 1776x1000 parameter 9, luma 1.55, chroma 1.35, no dscaler

I am using an AthlonXP 2400+ with a AIW 9800 Pro component out to my Toshiba 50h82 @ 1080i.

I can't run VMR9 with resize to my output res (1776x1000), and I can't get VMR9 with WinDVD working unless I install AnyDVD and that screws with my system for some reason but DVD Region-Free does not (which seems to disable macrovision fine for Cinemaster in VMR9 but not WinDVD).

One thing I noticed is that menu's look better in VMR9 but I think the video is looking better with the WinDVD setup but I can't tell if my eyes are playing tricks on me. Need some second opinions.

AndyIEG

01-13-04, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by kami
What do you guys think is the better solution?

1. Cinemaster video decoder with VMR9, and DScaler sharpen @ 128 in ffdshow.

2. WinDVD Platinum 5 video decoder with OVERLAY, Lanczos resize to 1776x1000 parameter 9, luma 1.55, chroma 1.35, no dscaler

I am using an AthlonXP 2400+ with a AIW 9800 Pro component out to my Toshiba 50h82 @ 1080i.

I can't run VMR9 with resize to my output res (1776x1000), and I can't get VMR9 with WinDVD working unless I install AnyDVD and that screws with my system for some reason but DVD Region-Free does not (which seems to disable macrovision fine for Cinemaster in VMR9 but not WinDVD).

One thing I noticed is that menu's look better in VMR9 but I think the video is looking better with the WinDVD setup but I can't tell if my eyes are playing tricks on me. Need some second opinions.

little question why every1 use the buggy dx VMR9 render with ffdshow rezise? There is no need to use this render if u already rezise, without ffdshow resize the vmr9 render scales better than the old overlay but if u already resize with ffdshow dont use VMR9, since overlay+normal render is faster and bugfree. There is still a yv12+vmr9 color conversion bug. It also seems VMR9 render use more brightness/gama compared to the overlay mixer, i like the overlay mixer more since the movie looks more "natural" to me but thats all subjective.

For the mpeg2 decoder filters windvd progressive deinterlace is and advantage over the cineplayer. But i think the cineplayer decoder is faster and "might" allow u to add more/better ffdshow filters.

I tested some mpeg2 decoders myself and the fastest is the elecard mpeg2 beta decoder without double precission IDTC. Also the elecard decoder comes with nice postprocessing build in filter, but u just need them for ripped mpeg2 movies like svcd,vcd.

For the picture quality i could not spot some "big" diff. beetwen cyberlink/windvd/cinemaster/elecard decoders. All the latest versions work very well and produce the same quality, all mainly depends on what ffdshow settings u use.
I like the cyberlink package most cause of the working dolby headphone/srslabs xtsurround and cyberlink headphone support wich all works with zoomplayer :) I was not able to get cineplayer or windvd dolby headphones to work in zoomplayer.

So if u want most speed go for cineplayer/elecard+overlay, maybe install cyberlink just for the better audio decoder/dsp filters.

kami

01-13-04, 03:48 PM

Sonic only uses 2% less CPU on average compared to WinDVD with my 2nd set of settings, but everyone says WinDVD is better so I stick with that. I am hard pressed to see a difference but I haven't done any serious side-by-side screenshot comparisons or anything yet.

Also another question....why in Zoom Player's info box does it say the input resolution is 720x540, with an output of 1776x1000. Shouldn't the input also read 1776x1000 if I am resizing to that in ffdshow?

N3W81E

01-13-04, 05:46 PM

un-check "Fix VMR9 Scaling Bug" in Zoomplayer and used VMR9
Dpeng or someone,
Can you explain to me why would one "un-check" that option when using VMR9?? By checking it, doesn't it fix the scaling problem? :confused:

JDLIVE

01-13-04, 05:49 PM

I've been using Sonic decoders...reading all the good things about the latest WinDVD had me contemplating switching, but I think I'll wait for the new nVidia product to be released, sounds like they may be even better. ;)

I have been seeing some tearing with my ATI 9600, may have to check that ReClock setting, glad I checked this thread again. ;)

zewt

01-13-04, 10:14 PM

I have been trying for weeks to fix this problem with FFDSHOW causing random lockups for zoomplayer.

I can start zoomplayer and ffdshow will start up fine and play without a problem. Then when I close zoomplayer and then re-open zoomplayer it will lock up completely on startup and I will have to end the process.

This goes on with no rythym or reason, sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. The only common denominator ir FFDSHOW.

If anyone has any ideas what I can do to try and isolate this problem please post them and I will try them out.

Thanks.

running:
P4 2.8 mhz, with 1gig ram multi-threaded.
Radeon 9800.
ZP 3.3

When it works, it looks great. :(

dpeng

01-14-04, 01:03 AM

N3W81E,

I was having VMR9 soft picture problem and "Fix VMR9 Scaling Bug" uncheckd was the reason. At that time I have not tested ffdshow.

Then I started using ffdshow and uncheck "Fix VMR9 Scaling Bug" makes ffdshow running smoothly. Your milage may vary.

Owen

01-14-04, 06:51 AM

"little question why every1 use the buggy dx VMR9 render with ffdshow rezise? There is no need to use this render if u already rezise, without ffdshow resize the vmr9 render scales better than the old overlay but if u already resize with ffdshow dont use VMR9, since overlay+normal render is faster and bugfree. There is still a yv12+vmr9 color conversion bug. It also seems VMR9 render use more brightness/gama compared to the overlay mixer, i like the overlay mixer more since the movie looks more "natural" to me but thats all subjective."

I use VMR9 because it looks better to me. I can’t notice much difference on a PC monitor but I definitely can on my rear projection TV. Overlay looks like 16bit color and VMR9 32bit. VMR9 just looks a lot less digital then Radeon Overlay on my system.

"For the picture quality i could not spot some "big" diff. beetwen cyberlink/windvd/cinemaster/elecard decoders. All the latest versions work very well and produce the same quality, all mainly depends on what ffdshow settings u use."

I cannot comment on Cyberlink or Elecard but WinDVD definitely outclasses Sonic for use with ffdshow (software mode).

Owen

Owen

01-14-04, 07:07 AM

Mars1

01-14-04, 09:11 AM

OWEN,

about your preference to use VRM9 against Overlay:

What is your signal link to your rearTV? Component ? RGB? DVI ?
May it be possible that if you ouput a component signal (as it seems to be), since the overlay is an added signal(video, YU12 or YUY2) to the desktop signal (rgb), and since there is an added final conversion to convert the global output into a component signal (oops, i made a mistake previously so I mean with UV color, instead of RGB), so, may it be possible that this is this final conversion that sample the signal color with a lower resolution (12bit-10bit instead of 16bit for YUY2) and so it creates some loose of intermediate colors (resolution of conversion) ?

I had observed this kind of effect on YC signal from computer to TV.

So for being sure, it will be perfect to compare this output with DVI output or with VGA output to the same diffusor (I do not think that a rearTV can accept those kind of signal).
The fact that you do not observe this kind of effect on your monitor which is obviously linked with VGA or DVI, seems to give me reason.

If further test can be done on this, and will confirm this result, we can definitely recomand to everyone that use a component output to prefer VRM9 rendering, and for all the others that use DVI or VGA ouput the overlay rendering...

Best regards,

(edited error on UY color that is incorect: i mean UV color!)

N3W81E

01-14-04, 01:02 PM

Mars1,
I use the DVI output from an ATI 9700pro to a RPTV (GW3), and I still prefer the overall PQ of VMR9 compared to overlay.

The only thing that bothers me is the tearing that occurs using VMR9. It is always at the same place, 3-4 inches from the top of the screen. With 1.85 content, it is annoying sometimes, but with 2.35, I don't see the tearing at all because it occurs in the black bars. :P

Mars1

01-14-04, 02:09 PM

N3W81E,

Is your DVI ouput carry a YU12 or YUY2 (so an UV color signal) or a true RGB signal?
(maybe my question is completely ridiculous, but I have not yet the oportunity to work with that kind of output, but only with DVI-analog output: so a fake digital signal that use the conection of DVI).

N3W81E

01-14-04, 02:15 PM

How can I tell?? :confused:

Mars1

01-14-04, 02:21 PM

I tend to always presume that any TV or RPTV manage only UY colors... but with newest technology based on DLP or LCD projection it is easyest to manage RGB colors. Did your RPTV is a CRT technology? or maybe you can give me the full name of your RPTV so we can search its database on the web?

Mars1

01-14-04, 03:04 PM

N3W81E,

DVI-D seems to be definitively a 24bit colors RGB signal (as I quickly see in the PDF link below).

But DVI-Analog should also complain with VESA VSIS specification...

Maybe I am looking too far for that kind of response and someone have a better experience and knowledge about this... we can then definitively stabilize the prefered render between the overlay and VRM9 from the kind of ouput/ visualisation system.
OWEN, what you thing of this?

Link to a PDF document: DVI spec 1.0 Standard Definition (http://www.ddwg.org/data/dvi_10.pdf)

jvincent

01-14-04, 03:23 PM

Not sure if Owen's awake since he's in Aus but as he and others have said many times, what is "best" is subjective.

What you like, the next person may not. Some people prefer VMR, some prefer overlay, etc. There is also a huge depency on the display. What is good for someone using a first generation 50" Samsung DLP over DVI probably isn't the same as someone using a 9" CRT front projector via a MP-1 modified 9700 Pro.

In the end, you just need to play with it for a while and decide what you like best.

dpeng

01-14-04, 06:00 PM

Owen,

I am thinking of upgrading to 9600XT then unplug the cooling fan. Some said the running fan is degrading the picture quality. Do I have chance not over-heating the core without the fan? Or, do I have to clock it at lower MHz?

XT has more precise 0.7V/1V level output?

Observed better color performance with VMR9 like you have on my NEC LT240K onto 108" 2.35:1 screen. And your recommendation using 9600 Pro and above leads to the question. Both XT and Pro are equipped with a fan.

Thanks again.

jvincent

01-14-04, 06:37 PM

DO NOT run a 9600XT without the fan running. You run the risk of destroying the GPU.

If you don't want the noise of the fan you will need to replace it with a passive VGA cooler like the Zalman ZM80 HP

Owen

01-14-04, 08:06 PM

Mars1,
My Toshiba HD CRT rear projector (Model 57VW9UA) is connected using component cables via a VGA-Component transcoder. The transcoding function is completely analogue and cannot degrade color resolution.

The main reason that I notice the difference more on my TV is because of size and display technology.
Most of my computer time is spent on a notebook PC with a DVI connected 15” 1600x1200 TFT display.
Even though the TFT display is an exceptionally good one, it just does not have the color resolution of a CRT. No digital display dose.
I could connect my Sony G500 21” CRT to my HTPC via VGA. I am certain that this display would reveal the difference but I see no reason to bother. I am only interested in what works best on my TV.
All CRT displays are RGB devices internally.
Only Svideo and composit (Not component) are YC video transition systems.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

Owen

01-14-04, 08:58 PM

Dpeng,

Like jvincent said, don’t disconnect the fan on a Radeon 9600XT.

You can do what I do and that is remove the fan from the Radeon heat sink to improve air flow and use a standard case fan running on 7 volts (connected between the +5Volt and +12Volt power supplies) and mounted on two bent back plain blanking plates and blowing down over the video card at 90 degrees and onto the main board chipset.
This cools better then the original fan, is almost completely silent and costs almost nothing. (Patent Pending) :D

I have used a 9700 and 9600pro like this and have VMR9 working with no tearing and no fan noise. :D

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

FoLLgoTT

01-15-04, 04:22 PM

@owen
I have used a 9700 and 9600pro like this and have VMR9 working with no tearing

Can you exactly describe how do you get no tearing with VMR9 and a Radeon card?

N3W81E

01-15-04, 04:40 PM

I second that! I'm also get tearing using VMR9 with 9700pro...and that's the ONLY thing that is keeping me from enjoying my movies. :(

Mars1

01-16-04, 01:57 PM

VRM9 or OVERLAY ?
A try to find an explanation with the artifacts created through heavy process on the sampled signal

Jvincent,
I tend to think that behind every subjective appreciation is a technical answer, so here is my research to find an answer on what could be the preferred rendered solution between VRM9 or Overlay, depending on what is your output link to your visualization system. I will try to explain why some of you have seen great improvement with VRM9.

Sorry for this long reply, I know most of our improvements with FFDSHOW have been done by direct experience & test from all of you, also, maybe my research may seems out of purpose for some of you, but on the other hand, it will gives a deeper technical approach for the people (like myself) who wants to understand the “why” of things.

So… here is the result of my research on the subject:

WE ARE WORKING ON A PROCESSED SIGNAL:

To anderstand how much we change the signal let's take an example: see the level fonction of FFDSHOW to adjust the black and white level. As Tbarry previously wrote on the argument with the link to the AVISYNTH filter for the “level” fonction, the tension on a video signal doesn’t use the entire signal dynamic that can “carry the cable”. To make the story short and to give one easy example: this is what can be shown by the THX optimizer grayscale test, with the THX logo and its shadow that should disappear into the background for a good adjustment of the brightness; and everyone have also the occasion to see “while tweaking” the deeper black box on the top right of the grayscale that correspond to the lowest “luminosity signal” that can carry the cable. Resampling the signal to use all this possible dynamic can produce artifact: as simple example, do a gray shading from gray 50togray180 into photoshop, and then "level filter" to change it to black to white: banding will appear instead of a smooth shading.
See chapter 29 of the ColorFAQ.pdf document for full technical information on this conversion:
http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/ColorFAQ.pdf

On the color conversion from VGA to Component there is still a lot to say, but basically, we can say that the two colorspaces are not equal and need a "ponderate" conversion: a "matrix" conversion. This kind of conversion on a sampled signal (computer) without filtering the ouput can produce artifacts: this is what seems to occure for some of us in their output.
Filtering the ouput is the solution for all sampled signal that can produce artifacts (a sampled signal that have been heavily processed). Filtering are used only into the “medium-level to top level” consumer products and not with the classical cheap VGA-COMPONENT converter that are released with our VideoCards.
MED-LEVEL converter with color space conversion « HDTV Colorimetry matrix”
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/kdvtca2.asp
see chapters 28 to31 of the following document for the MATRIX conversion:
http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/ColorFAQ.pdf
Typical low cost schema of a VGA RGB to YprPb Converter:
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/interfaces/diytranscoder_johrhees.html
Caracteristic of a typical low cost component used to do analog conversion: EL2045
http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn7030.pdf

To cut a wrong common idea: outputting to DVI-D needs also to sample the signal to transform it to a standard 24bit RGB numerical signal. It is done on non-native RGB signal used by the Overlay mode, and depending on the kind of the signal routing of the videocard: it may also be done just before the final output.
See full spec of the DVI standard:
http://www.ddwg.org/data/dvi_10.pdf

So here is our problem: the succession of changes we made on the sampled signal without filtering the ouput conversion can create some artifacts.

AVOIDING ARTIFACTS

As a second step in this explanation, we have to know how to avoid those artifacts created from the multiple and precedent work on the signal (UV color of the DVD, then color re-sampling & sharpen through ffdshow (level/Properties/Resize/Sharpen/Denoise/etc), then RGB conversion through VGA output, and finally in VGA to Component transcoder!!!). So we do not have to forget that we have done a lot of work on the chrominance signal through ffdshow (even with low settings acting on colors): the sampling and sharpening effect combined with the denoise have created some "steps" in the curve of the signal.
Until we are working on a “oversampled” signal with an higher dynamic and resolution (24-32bit resolution instead of our 8-12-16 bit), every action on this signal will create its own characteristics depending on its sample resolution (dynamic), that can be translated on artifacts after the numeric to analog conversion of the signal which is done for the final output.

The fact that some of you prefer the VRM9 render is because it seems to apply a "software filtering" prior to send the rgb signal to the videocard (this is why you notice a smoothest look on VRM9 and a sharpen look on Overlay).
Since the overlay mode of our videocards was build to "display" existing component signal from DVD (and not a heavy processed signal not filtered), the videocard have no reason to include a filter to the output, and so the signal UV that she receives natively, will not be filtered on the final output: it is sharpen, but potientially with a more artifacts.

I had the confirmation by a "Signal specialist' ingeneer that there is also a wide variety and quality of filtering that can be implemented. So the actual VRM9 filtering can be modified and can have great enhancement.

My conclusion:

Owen, you right!!!

VRM9 should be the prefered render on heavy processed image. (as heavy processed, I mean as since it include a "Level" and/or "Denoise3D" filter.

Overlay should be use on light processed image. (as light I mean gradual denoise and all the other FFDSHOW stuff).

Over-sampling the signal?

For people like me that use professional DTD audio application, the benefit of over-sampling a signal for working on it is evident (we commonly use 96Khz 32bit audio signal to apply our filter even if the best RAMDAC converter can “hardly” have a 20-22bit of true dynamic). Over-sampling a signal avoid a lot of the artifacts that can occurs from multiple sample conversion (aliasing, etc).
Since we are entered with FFDSHOW, on the benefit that can bring a full digital treatment and enhancement of the video signal, it will be very useful to use and work on an Oversampled signal… But all the actual filter of FFDSHOW are based on UV color algorithm, and should be all re-written to use an over sampled signal. :(

My tests on forcing YUY2 signal output (16bit instead of 12bit YU12) have not bring successfull results: it seems that the conversion is only aplyed after all the filter and not prior.
So one great stuff that we can wait from MILAN, will be to include a new filter that can be placed and move into our ffdshow filter list, that can convert the UV resolution and dynamic to the maximun one acceptable by the actual filter algoritm WITH DIFFERENT KIND OF FILTERING INTEGRATED WITHIN THE CONVERSION FILTER!

So here we are…
I hope that my research may be useful for further test approach with ffdshow, and may help everybody to choose one or the other of the rendering method.

Best regards,

additive info:
From the ATI documentation about their HDTV adapter (YPbPr), it seems that the driver does the color conversion to component color (advanced properties control panel). No info on what method (matrix...) software or hardaware is use to do so.
Windows control Panel Settings chapter:
http://www.ati.com/support/manualpdf/CmpVidAd.pdf?type=pc&cardType=HDTV+Component+Adapter&prod=PChdtv&submit.x=12&submit.y=8

If someone have deeper information on the "filtering" algorithm of VRM9, please send it to me!!! THANKS

dpeng

01-17-04, 07:17 PM

Mars,

Wish I could fully understand your awesome post.

jvincent and Owen,

Thanks for the great advice. It helped a lot with my card selection. We guys here are lucky because there is one card which employs 9600 Non Pro with 128-bit memory address AND no fan! In case you are curious, it's Elsa Asia 960FX and may not be available locally to you.

With 1080p clips, 7500 + Zoomplayer could not play smoothly although WMP9 did it fine. 9600NP resolves this first issue.

More importantly, 9600 allows one to enable and stick to Fast Write in control panel which 7500 couldn't. This is the last stroke for sinc/ffdshow to run resize 1024x768 without glitch. I am way too pleased.

Last night two net pals visited my place to witness the results. Without ffdshow, overlay outperforms VMR9 which is very interesting. Becasue it was completely reversed with 7500.

I then added ffdshow/gradual denoise 10/luma sharpen 0.5/chroma sharpen 0.3 and stuck to VMR9, because with this setting and my other hardware/software configurations, Overlay is simply no match.

We tested different algorithms from less quality to high. Software Bicubic beats 9600 Overlay. Lanczos and Spline were fairly close. And...

sinc really shines in dark scenes!

I think we were lucky with the test. It was first few chapters of "Gladiator" and when switched to sinc from spline, alll of us immediately noticed the differences.

I will leave you for your own live test. It'd be cruel to exploit your enjoyment by spilling too many words on it here. ;-)

dpeng

01-17-04, 07:18 PM

Owen

01-17-04, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by FoLLgoTT
@owen

Can you exactly describe how do you get no tearing with VMR9 and a Radeon card?

I enable “VSINC correction with VMR9” in Reclock Configuration screen and adjust the “Target VSINC” slider a small amount, close the Configuration screen and test video playback in Zoom Player. Close Zoom Player and reopen Configuration screen, adjust slider. Repeat as required.

I am currently using an overclocked 9600 Pro. A fast video card would seems to be required for good VMR9 performance.
I also have a very fast 3.5G P4 system. I think this could be a very important factor.

With this setup I can run in order:

Deinterlace (if required)
Levels (if required)
Descaler sharpen.
Denoise3d.
Resize 1920x1080 Lanczos with Lumma, Chroma sharpen.

And audio equalization.

I also have an Athlon 2800XP system (Nforce2 chipset) with a Geforce FX5200 video card that can do VMR9 output without tearing as long as I don’t use any demanding ffdshow filters like Resize or Denoise3d.
I have tried overclocking the video card and it does help.
I think the Athlon is the limiting factor here, as it is MUCH slower then the P4 system.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

N3W81E

01-17-04, 09:32 PM

VSYNC correction can only be enabled in Reclock only if the fps of video (24, 25, or 30) goes into the refresh rate directly (48, 72; 50, 75; 60, 90; etc).

For us NTSC TV users, we cannot get film content (24fps) to use VSYNC correction, so it's not possible.

Owen

01-18-04, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by N3W81E
VSYNC correction can only be enabled in Reclock only if the fps of video (24, 25, or 30) goes into the refresh rate directly (48, 72; 50, 75; 60, 90; etc).

For us NTSC TV users, we cannot get film content (24fps) to use VSYNC correction, so it's not possible.

I use PAL so I dont have any problem but, if this is correct, how do DVD's ever display correctly on a 60Hz display ?

I would think that NTSC DVD's would be disigned to work on an NTSC TV.

What am I missing?

Owen

jvincent

01-18-04, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by N3W81E
VSYNC correction can only be enabled in Reclock only if the fps of video (24, 25, or 30) goes into the refresh rate directly (48, 72; 50, 75; 60, 90; etc).

For us NTSC TV users, we cannot get film content (24fps) to use VSYNC correction, so it's not possible.

I play 24 fps content with vsync turned on just fine into my NTSC HDTV.

I have reclock set for fixed playback at 30 FPS so vsync is either disabled or the 3:2 pulldown comes into play.

Either way it works fine for me. Time to reread ogo's readme file again.....

N3W81E

01-18-04, 09:36 PM

I don't quite understand Jvincent, because when I use reclock with NTSC DVDs, in the properties menu, the fps detected is 23.976, so I set the media adaption to 'refresh/2.5' so the movie will play at 24. The 'VSYNC correction" checkbox is grayed out so I can't enable it. Can you please explain how you got it to work? Thanks. I did follow the instructions given by Ogo in his readme regarding 24fps playback at 60Hz using S/PDIF.

From Ogo's Reclock readme, 'Using the VSYNC tools' section...
- It will activate only if the adapted media speed is an exact multiple of the hardware refresh rate (for example a 23.976 fps movie on 75 Hz TV). Since VSYNC/Frame synchronisation issues can only happen if one is an exact multiple of the other, there is no point to use the VSYNC correction when it’s not the case

jvincent

01-18-04, 09:58 PM

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The suggestion to reread the readme was for me. :)

I am connected to an HDTV so I just set reclock to playback all DVDs as 30FPS. When I had it set to auto I would get sound gaps at the start of DVDs and occaisional dropouts on badly flagged DVDs.

I also have some 30fps discs so it was easiest for me to do it this way.

I have the vsync box checked and like I said, I wasn't sure if it was going to do anything, hence my suggestion for me to reread the readme. I'm guessing that since 3:2 pulldown is happening that vsync may still apply in my case.

I do know that playback is smooth (as smooth as NTSC with 3:2 can be anyhow) and dropout free.

jvincent

01-19-04, 11:26 AM

So, I went back and reread ogo's guide and did some checking. Here's what I found......

As I said before, I have my frame rate locked at 30 fps (actually 29.97 but I rounded up for simplicity)

Now, with vsync correction on and the vsync monitor enabled I had the vsync bars scolling up and down the screen. Ogo describes this in his readme and specifically mentions that some renderers may do this so I turned of vsync correction but left the monitor on.

Now with 30fps source the vsync bars are locked solid and very tight, all is good.

With 24 fps material, I get pretty much the same thing, a small bar fixed on one location of the screen. The bar is definitely bigger than with 30fps material. Also, every now and then, it "jumps". The bar will then scroll around once, and then relock. I'm guessing that both of these behaviours are due to some kind of hiccup in the 3:2 pulldown.

In all of this I never heard any audio dropouts or noticeable video stutter.

Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

Mars1

01-19-04, 02:23 PM

I made some important adjustments in my previously posted reply on how to choose between VRM9 or OVERLAY render.
I had a long week-end with an Engineer expert in "ANALOG and DIGITAL SIGNAL".
Into my previous post, my conclusion was not accurate, but I was on the way to some truth... (Nemo! the oracle just show me the way!!!:p )
So I think, I found a valid explanation why we could prefer one or the other render method...

Link to page 36 of ffdshow faq (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=246752&perpage=20&pagenumber=36)

Best regards,

madpoet

01-19-04, 02:25 PM

Ok... this thread has me confused :). Here's what I'm looking for... the best possible picture. I've got an Athlon 2.8 running XPPro. Currently I just use TT and FFDshow with the resize to 1280x720 (native resolution), outputted via DVI to my Panny AE500. In reading all of this, it seems like the Sonic filters from TT are not in fact recommended. Do I need to be looking to buy a different player? Nvidia+Zoomplayer? I'm still lost with all of the different settings and what should be a multiplier of who, and filters. So, to start at the basics. Should I move off of TT and onto one of the other player combos?

Owen

01-19-04, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by madpoet
Ok... this thread has me confused :). Here's what I'm looking for... the best possible picture. I've got an Athlon 2.8 running XPPro. Currently I just use TT and FFDshow with the resize to 1280x720 (native resolution), outputted via DVI to my Panny AE500. In reading all of this, it seems like the Sonic filters from TT are not in fact recommended. Do I need to be looking to buy a different player? Nvidia+Zoomplayer? I'm still lost with all of the different settings and what should be a multiplier of who, and filters. So, to start at the basics. Should I move off of TT and onto one of the other player combos?

If you use FFDShow, yes.

But wait for the upcoming NVDVD 3.0. (2.5 was never any good with FFDShow)
Until the release of 3.0, WinDVD holds the crown.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.

madpoet

01-19-04, 02:53 PM

So then (to make sure I understand) the idea would be to get NVDVD 3.0 strictly for the codecs, not the player itself. Then I would have to use Zoomplayer to make it work in conjunction with FFDShow (or have they added post processing support to 3.0 now?). I would resize in FFDShow, and then apply Dscaler filters per my preferences. Hopefully I understood :)

Thue

01-19-04, 03:04 PM

madpoet-> Correct :)

Vern Dias

01-19-04, 07:00 PM

However, the nVidia FWMM player ALSO supports the use of FFDSHOW directly without using ZP.

That said, I need ZP for the flexible AR and blanking controls it provides.

Vern

madpoet

01-19-04, 07:49 PM

Well, that's good to know if I want to just test the picture of the NVidia player without buying Zoomplayer first. Honestly, I've sunk a lot into software I've ended up not using that I would rather be able to try before I buy :).

-MP

geofstro

01-20-04, 02:45 AM

madpoet,

You can use ZP on a trial basis. It's fully functional, with the only difference being that you have to wait a few seconds and then click one of three buttons as instructed, before it will start.

I've been using it this way to test it; but I'll be buying it in a day or two, since it works well for me.

geoff

Mars1

01-21-04, 08:50 AM

I had experienced some very good result with some "poor" encoded DVD with the folowing parameter:
Denoise 3D: 0-0-6(time)-HQ
My DVD was a 4:3 cinemascope NTSC : Hell In Pacific (From John Boorman).
The probleme was the vision of blocs on the subtil graduation of the sky (chapter one title and chapter two for example).
It is almost noticeable after a level filter to extend the contrast.
Dradual denoise can not remove that artifact.
Denoise 3D with usual parameter: 1-1-4-HQ just create some moving "banding".
Denoise 3D with 0-0-6-HQ just solve the problem and the result in the graduation is smoothest than the original video without the higher contrast.
So here is a parameter combination that work very well for this kind of artifact observed on some DVD.
I experienced also great improvment on the diving of the submarine of Titanic (4:3 cinemascope Pal - chapter one just after the title).

pmd918

01-23-04, 10:39 PM

Just got my HTPC running - very exciting.

I am running a:

Windows XP Pro
P4 3.06 GHz w/ Hyperthreading
2x256 MB PC2100 dual channel
Sapphire Radeon 9200 128 MB Video card

I am currently outputting video via S-video to a "normal" NTSC TV.

Running TheaterTek w/ ffdshow with the following ffdshow filters in this order:

Dscaler sharpen
ffdshow resize (Lanzcos) to 1280x960 with luma, chroma sharpen
Gradual denoise

The video card is then scaling down to output resolution. Desktop is at 800x600.

I am getting shuddering with these settings - I expected with my processing horsepower that I would be fine with these settings. If I eliminate the Dscaler sharpen, it runs fairly smoothly, but not perfect. I can run at 1120x840 without Dscaler sharpen with smooth picture.

The bios is at default settings, and Windows XP Pro is at default settings.

I don't know whether to expect dramatic improvements in PQ on my old 35" NTSC TV - I'm really just trying to optimize the setup of my HTPC so I'm ready to go when I get an HDTV.

Is this the best I should expect? Maybe there are some settings in the TheaterTek setup that I have incorrect (I have "process whole image" unchecked). Is the video card too slow?

Help!!!
Phil

Keh

01-24-04, 07:36 AM

Why two sharpening filters? The CPU load will be incredible and I would suspect that the combination works at cross-purposes.

This is an area where often "less is more"; FFDSHOW can lure you into all sorts of combinations and permutations which are not beneficial.

jvincent

01-24-04, 09:27 AM

Agreeing with Keh that less is very often better, your memory is probably the bottleneck for heavy ffdshow processing. If you can use PC3200 in your MB you stand a better chance of running more stuff.

llama

01-24-04, 10:02 AM

I've found that running FFDSHOW through TheaterTek takes more resoure power than running Intervideo filters and Zoomplayer. I can actually run more items better with the latar configuration.

Mastiff

01-24-04, 12:07 PM

I always run both dScaler sharpening and resize sharpening. Used in moderate amounts dScaler brings out more detail. But I use that before resize. Takes less CPU power then. A DVD like the region 2 Star Wars Episode Two is unwatchably soft without a lot of sharpening, though, so I vary the dScaler amount from movie to movie.

pmd918

01-24-04, 01:38 PM

llama,

Thanks for the suggestion - I may try that.

Keh & jvincent,

Like Mastiff said, I read somewhere in this huge thread that Dscaler sharpen before ffdshow resize can bring out more detail. It's really a moot point for me now because my processor can't seem to handle it.

jvincent,

My MB can be overclocked from 533 MHz to 800 MHz. If I do that then I can run PC3200 RAM. I'm not overclocking anything at this point.

Will it really make that much difference? If so, I have no problem spending the money to upgrade the RAM. I don't seem to be limited in the amount of RAM at this point, so I'd probably stick to 512 MB (unless you have other suggestions). What about CAS latency?

Thanks,
Phil

jvincent

01-24-04, 02:10 PM

ffdshow processing is very memory and CPU intensive so the more bandwidth you can get into your memory the better. There are lot's of variables involved so it's not necessarily a slam dunk that running 800FSB and PC3200 will make everything work but it should make it better.

512M or RAM should be plenty.

Mastiff

01-25-04, 06:52 AM

pmd918, I would suggest that you tried only sharpen, both types, wihtout denoise. On my system (Barco Graphics 808 CRT projector) that gives me a better picture than using resize plus any denoise. :cool:

pmd918

01-25-04, 02:13 PM

Mastiff,

Thanks for the tip - I'll definitely try that.

But that brings up another point. How do most of you evaluate/optimize the filters and settings that you use? Most of the improvements are subtle, and without the ability to do side-by-side comparisons, I find it difficult to see the improvements.

Do you use test patterns from Avia/Digital Essentials? Or do you freeze a frame of a movie? If so, how do you choose the frame(s) to freeze?

Which brings up another point - which of the settings/filters can be adjusted on the fly without restarting TheaterTek?

Suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Phil

jvincent

01-25-04, 02:46 PM

I usually change setting with a movie I am familiar with and then verify the test patterns in Avia just to see if anything really bad is happening. Test patterns don't tell the whole story though so don't focus on them.

Once I think I'm "done" I usually leave those settings for a week or so to see how it looks with a several different movies.

I use TT with the newer versions of ffdshow, not sure when it started but definitely with 200309727, you can change mose settings on the fly and they will take effect immediately. The exception here is that if you either enable or disable resize or change the resize dimensions. You can change resize algorithms without having to restart.

For test patterns that are "static" like resolution patterns you need to change the chapter after changing ffdshow settings for the changes to be displayed.

EDIT: That should have read 20030927.

Owen

01-25-04, 05:35 PM

Welcome pmd918,

Glad to see you have done your homework. ;)
Your choice of filters is to be commended. Dscaler sharpen and resize sharpen work in very different ways and compliment each other very nicely.
Descaler sharpen is great for bringing out fine details, unfortunately it also brings out noise so that you should not use it to excess.
Resize sharpen improves the 3D look of the image and does not noticeably increase noise. The two together work wonders.
Gradual denoise, after resize is a good choice for your level of hardware. Used in moderation it helps to remove noise without degrading the image too much.
Denoise3D used before resize works better but is very demanding on CPU.
Noise reduction is of coarse optional, and not required.

Your FFDShow settings should be subtle and not immediately obvious for best results.
Many people make the mistake of using aggressive settings and then complain that they don’t like FFDShow.

As for your shuddering problems, I suggest you try to overclock your system before you replace your RAM. Most RAM can run much faster then specification.
By overclocking you increase RAM and CPU speed. With any luck you should be able to get the RAM running at about 146Mhz and the CPU near 3.3G. This would definitely help. Better RAM would allow about 180Mhz memory speed with a 4/5 divider for the same 3.3G CPU speed and would be even faster.
I used to use a 3.06 P4 @ 2.26 with RAM running at about 180Mhz and it could definitely run the filter combination you want to use.
I tested my 3.06 P4 Notebook with 166Mhz RAM and it can run your settings (just).

512Meg is more then enough RAM for video and DVD playback. Even 256Meg is fine.

Make certain that you are using overlay for output. VMR9 will be much to demanding on your system.

I recomend FFDShow 20032709.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The ffdshow resize-sharpen dude.