I have been lurking here for quite a while, and am tweaking with ffdshow and zoomplayer for a couple weeks. I have two questions that have been puzzling me for a while I am not able to get it resolved. I hope I can get some help here.

First, my PC setup: dell 4300S with P4 1.8GHz CPU 512M memory. The only modification was that I installed Chiantech AV710 sound card, which was flashed to Prodigy 7.1. Using PowerDVD 5 decoder for both video and audio. I used ffdshow to resize to twice the DVD image size, and apply sharpen flter. (Although this is a lowly setup, using the latest version offfdshow, I was actually able to get it to run movies smoothly if I rip the DVD to HDD. I even was able to run Spider-Man DVD from DVD drive. I am thinking to work things out before I consider upgrading.)

Now here are my problems:

1) The color in zoomplayer seems to be very unstable. During the video playing, usually only after a couple minutes the color suddenly jumps so the image becomes very dark. When I open the ffsdhow dialog, the image brightens (although no color/image adjustment is selected in ffdshow). After closing the ffdshow dialog, after a couple minutes, it jumps back. I have to keep the ffdshow dialog open. But then the the full screen mode, after a few seconds, the ffsdhow window goes down behing the image.... this has been very annoying. Anyone has similar problem?

2) Sound. The PowerDVD audio decoder has selection for SPDIF output. But very often, the zoomplayer would freeze with no sound output. I have to open audio filter, change to other form of audio output, then zoomplayer resumes, and then I would be able to change back to SPDIF output. When I stop and resume the playing, same thing happens. When I jump a chaper, this happens. Anyone has similar problem?

(Running PowerDVD along never has these problems, so I suspect the problems are with zoomplayer and ffdshow.)

Gazzagazza,
We have been through the Denoise3d removing detail issue before, have we not?

When I suggested people use these settings 0.5 1.0 5.0 HQ for DVD, you posted this:

Quote gazzagazza
“Denoise 3D does nothing for me on my pj... if I set it high enough to notice it is doing anything at all it removes detail (particularly on skin texture). I want the least digital look to what I watch.”

When I asked if you could see any detail loss at my recommended settings you said.

Quote gazzagazza
“Hi Owen, yes its true, I have tried your denoise 3D settings and it makes no difference to a DVD picture quality here... crank up the Luma and Chroma settings until I can see a difference and there is detail lost... all it does is hit the CPU usage.

So you admit that you can’t see any detail lose at my recommended settings, but you complain that you cant see any reduction in noise.
When I expressed amazement that you can’t see the reduction in noise you reply.

Quote gazzagazza
“No loss of detail at your settings, but no effect on noise either... or perhaps I just haven't been watching noisy DVDs. Give me an example and I'll see if I can get hold of it and compare. One example in my case... we've been watching our way through the Sopranos series on DVD. In series 2 there was a scene in a hospital at night time, and the wall below the nightlight in a room had that small pixel noise on it... (mosquito noise right?) I didn't think denoise 3D made much difference at your sort of settings, gradual denoise did though, but I didn't like it. I decided it was like grain in a silver halide film source... part of the experience. Live with it then. On the other hand denoise 3D was on with slightly higher settings, about 1, 1, 5, HQ when I watched the first of the LOTR trilogy. Frodo's skin looked very digitally smoothed. Turn off denoise 3D and that processed look disappeared. Remember that my screen size is bigger, so perhaps my experience is different to you? Also I don't want to tweak my life away, I want a solution that looks good, and then to forget it and enjoy the movies.”

A setting of 1, 1, 5, HQ WILL noticeably affect detail, that is why I recommend 0.5 1.0 5.0 HQ which you have admitted does NOT remove detail.
As for your comment, that you can’t see a reduction in noise unless you use higher settings, frankly I find hard to believe.

Now in response to this post:
Quote BangoO
“For those who claim that a 0.5 1.0 5.0 HQ Denoise3D does not alter the sharpness, here is an example:”

You post this:

Quote gazzagazza
“This is exactly what I found... denoise 3D removes skin detail, making it look less real. I now just use resize... If the DVD is noisy, I'll live with it.”

You have already stated that Denoise3d used at my recommended setting of 0.5 1.0 5.0 HQ does NOT noticeably remove detail.
Me thinks you should make up your mind. :D


BangoO’s screen captures are actually quite interesting, and I recommend people download the full size images and view them in an application where you can instantly change between images, like ACDSee.

Look closely at Johns right eye, which is free of movement, well lit and free of noise. Any detail lose is extremely minimal and can be compensated for by using a little extra sharpen if you must.
Then compare the background and John’s suit, where you can clearly see the reduction in noise.
Also note how the resized and sharpened image exaggerates the noise and how the resized and sharpened image with Denoise3d maintains the real detail in the image while having much less noise then the original.

Denoise3d is almost miraculous IMHO.
It’s down sides are almost non existent and benefits obvious.
With motion video the effectiveness of Denoise3d is even more noticeable.



Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Denoise3D is very good for a denoise filter, but it removes details...
Just have a look at the right cheek (the one on the left :)), most of the details brought by the resize are removed. And no, this is not only the grain that is removed, it's the skin details !

You say you can add extra sharpen, but then you will get lots of EE and side effects that are horrible.

So... yes Denoise3D works well, and yes it does remove details !
Just so people know...

BangoO,

Everyone will have to make up there own mind about Denoise3d, but should do so base on use in there own system. Not on screen captures.
On your system you may need to back the settings down a little to something like L 0.5, C 0.5 T 4.0 HQ.

No filter is perfect, but I still believe that L 0.5, C 1.0, T 5.0 HQ is a very good compromise setup for good noise reduction combined with minimal loss for most DVD’s on most systems. There will always be exceptions.
I don’t think these settings would be at all appropriate for HD video.

Do you have problems with all DVD’s or only the example you posted?

The DVD you are using as an example looks pretty bad.
The noisier the video or decoder the more you will notice the problem you describe.
Are using the Sonic decoder by any chance. It’s very prone to pixilation and noise in software mode, as when use with FFDShow.

I have to say that I don’t ever notice any lose of detail when watching DVD’s on my system, but I always notice and appreciate the noise reduction.
I don’t need to use any sharpening on my system, so I could easily use a resize sharpen setting of L 0.5 to compensate for any lose without any ill affect, but I have note found any heed to do so.



Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

My biggest problem with denoise3d isn't so much the loss of detail, but rather that is seem to add a green cast over the image. At first I thought OK, maybe that disc just had a lot of red or blue noise that was removed. But it seems to happen with every disc. I've tried the .5, 1, 5 HQ settings people are using but it still seems to add the green haze. Maybe it's just me :D but drop in a disc once with denoise3d on and only denoise the right half of the image. Flip it on and off a few times while it's running and you see what I mean.

Here is a sample frame. See that right 1/2 ? Other films are the same, but depending on the frame it's more or less visible. Bright full frame shots really make it easy to see on my setup.


http://www.moonshineridge.com/photo/denoise.JPG

It's a jpeg since we aren't looking at sharpness here.
But if you want to see a png: http://www.moonshineridge.com/photo/denoise.PNG

-James

Originally posted by Owen
Everyone will have to make up there own mind about Denoise3d, but should do so base on use in there own system. Not on screen captures.
I agree, of course. It's just that when I read that Denoise 0.5 1.0 5.0 does not alter the details, I just wanted to show that it's not true.
Now, it's just a matter of compromise... what is good for me may not be good for others, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Owen
No filter is perfect, but I still believe that L 0.5, C 1.0, T 5.0 HQ is a very good compromise setup for good noise reduction combined with minimal loss for most DVD’s on most systems. There will always be exceptions.
I don’t think these settings would be at all appropriate for HD video.
You are right :)

Originally posted by Owen
Do you have problems with all DVD’s or only the example you posted?

The DVD you are using as an example looks pretty bad.
The noisier the video or decoder the more you will notice the problem you describe.
Are using the Sonic decoder by any chance. It’s very prone to pixilation and noise in software mode, as when use with FFDShow.
I don't have a *problem*, I like the image with Denoise3D, I just wanted to show that it does alter the details.
I think on good dvds, it should not be used, but it may be needed on bad ones.
Swordfish is one of the best DVDs on the market, it's a Warner Video.
The fact that it is grainy does not mean it's a bad DVDs, it means that the director wanted the movie to look that way... so why trying to remove it ?
If sharpening the image brings more grain, then I agree that a Denoise3D could be usefull.

Originally posted by Owen
I have to say that I don’t ever notice any lose of detail when watching DVD’s on my system, but I always notice and appreciate the noise reduction.
I don’t need to use any sharpening on my system, so I could easily use a resize sharpen setting of L 0.5 to compensate for any lose without any ill affect, but I have note found any heed to do so.
If you are not sharpening your image at all, then the loss of details is less visible or even invisible.
But if you are sharpening the image, then it tends to reduce the details a lot (but the image is still a bit sharper than the original one). Of course, it depends on how much you sharpen and how much you denoise.

So... the aim of my post was not to say that Denoise3D is crap, it was just to show that it does alter the details.
Agreed ? :)

PS: jpooton, Andy said that this problem has been adressed and fixed... which version are you using ?

Originally posted by BangoO
PS: jpooton, Andy said that this problem has been adressed and fixed... which version are you using ?

I was using a June 9th, 2004 version... Aparently a lot has happened in one month :D. I just updated to the July 9th version and it has been fixed. Now I just need to see if it helps or hurts the projector tonight.

Thanks..

-James

Originally posted by nm88
Ffdshow already does this to an extent. When I activatate YUY2 output on ffdshow on a P4, an extra 20% or so of CPU usage appears in CPU 0 utilization whereas the rest of the code appears in CPU 1. This allows smooth playback without stuttering even though the combined usage is 90% or more. On an Athlon64 system, if I do the same thing, it will just reach its limit and start stuttering.
I went ahead and tried this on my system (dual P4 Xeons), but could not replicate what you've described. Forcing YUY2 output greatly increased the CPU load, as expected, but it was still all on the same processor. The second processor remained completely idle as usual.

I should mention that I keep hyperthreading disabled, so I’m only dealing with two physical processors instead of four virtual ones. Maybe what you’ve described only applies to a single hyperthreaded CPU? I can’t think of any reason why that would happen though.

Cheers.

I have been using Denoise3D for a little while now, and it seems quite good. I have gone back to gradual denoise just to test this "loss of detail" argument, but i don't think its true with "reasonable" settings. gradual denoise set "suttle" i find can work quite well.

Oh Owen, out of interest without Denoise 3D but instead gradual denoise my 2400+ can resize to 1920 x 1500 approx without dropped frames.

Hi guru guys!

Please help me to solve some ffd problems!

My system: P IV 2.4, 512, M-audio Audiophile, Matrox Parphelia 128 / Ati 9600, CRT Monitor 17" ( I hope soon i will have NEC HT 1100 PJ :-))

Ok, here is the problem:

I use TheaterTek 1.6 + all patches + ffdshow-20040701b_SSE2 + any_dvd38.13. In ffd i use denoise 3D and recize to 1024x768.
On PAL disks all is working pretty good BUT then i try to play NTSC disks (i tryed 5) i see only green lines on my monitor. Then i turn ffd off all NTSC disks are playing OK. I tryed to change Matrox and ATI video and had some green problems:-((

May be i missed some ffd settings? Or I have to use old ffd version?
Any ideas?

I have one feature request, but I don't know if it's feasable...

In the Preset autoload conditions, it would be nice if we could specify the framerate.
The reason why is that I can't apply the same filters to a 23.976fps movie and to a 59.94fps movie otherwise the second one will be unwatchable because of heavier cpu use.

I don't know if there is a way to check the framerate as fast as you check the resolution of the movie (for ex.) so that you can apply a different configuration, but it would be really nice !

Well sometimes u cant win...

Finally after weeks of tweaking this and tweaking that managed to get denoise 3D HQ, 2.5 x 2 PAL resize with Bicubic, overlay (better colours in my opinion) reclock all running smooooth on my computer monitor.

Moved it into HT room hooked up with DVI to my HS20 at 1:1 which has to be 56hz and what do you know...stutter stutter and more stutter on pans. reclock moans about not being multiple of 25, but to fill my screen it has to be 56hz.

Contrast and colour saturation have vastly improved but i'm now wistfully looking at my ARCAM dvd player again...

Anybody running HTPC with HS20 and smooth pans, is it possible i have to ask or do i put up with stutter on pans?

Cheers
Andy

if you run analog audio out you should be able to allow reclock to "speed up" enuf. BUT audio quality will probably suffer.

is dvi worth it? VGA from HTPC is still going to outperform settop dvd

I have an HS10, no problems with pans, though obviously NTSC not PAL. I have a P4 2.66 processor, I can either resize to 192x1080 and use no denoise, or run at 1440x960 and use either denoise. Haven't decided yet which I prefer. ;)

I've never had problems specific to pans, if I try to do too much with ffdshow, I just get constant stuttering. Or tearing in the case of VRM9.

i compiled the open source MPEG2 decoder, using Gabest dshow filter + a little fix and now u can also connect ffdshow in zoomplayer to this decoder.

This allow's u to use the very fast MPEG/2 decoder in zoomplayer and other applications with ffdshow.

NOTE: seems that the filter do not support macrovison or css encryption so u have to use region free or dvd decryptor to get rid of the encryption.

I just tested it and all seems oki and looks good. Would be intressting how this decoder compare to nv3 or windvd6. Seems the decoder also have no chroma bug.

so feel free to play around with.

U can grab it here: http://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/dshow_Filter/

Sooo... I use Zoomplayer and this freebie decoder with FFDShow? Do I need a specific FFDShow version?

Doubt it.

Originally posted by madpoet
Sooo... I use Zoomplayer and this freebie decoder with FFDShow? Do I need a specific FFDShow version?

not realy, but zoomplayer 4.0+ will be needed i think to choose the preset "open source DVD" in the custom dvd setup menu

Originally posted by Spoonfed
I have been using Denoise3D for a little while now, and it seems quite good. I have gone back to gradual denoise just to test this "loss of detail" argument, but i don't think its true with "reasonable" settings. gradual denoise set "suttle" i find can work quite well.

Oh Owen, out of interest without Denoise 3D but instead gradual denoise my 2400+ can resize to 1920 x 1500 approx without dropped frames.

I assume that using Overlay.
You’re a real hero if you can do it with VMR9. :D

Still, it does go to show how efficient FFDShow resize has become thanks to Andy’s efforts.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

VMR9...........errrry no :) hehe Overlay.

now you gonna make me try see what VMR9 can do!!! :)

2 x PAL (1440 x 1152) is smooth with bout 85% CPU but at 1280 x 1024 a tiny bit of tearing. May well be ok on my PJ res of 1024 x 576?

Originally posted by AndyIEG

NOTE: seems that the filter do not support macrovison or css encryption so u have to use region free or dvd decryptor to get rid of the encryption.

U can grab it here: http://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/dshow_Filter/

add: Blight noticed that the free decoder has css support

JDLIVE

What method are u using to get picture to display, DVI, VGA...?

Seems this mpeg dec does not like to play with Reclock.

I installed, yet get failed errors when DVD attempts to start no matter what audio codec i use.

does thie mpeg dec support DVD menu highlights/selection? If so i would be keen to try get it working (though i need reclock in the loop), if not i'll keep using WinDVD5 codec for DVD, and elecard 2510 build for file playback.

Originally posted by Spoonfed
Seems this mpeg dec does not like to play with Reclock.

I installed, yet get failed errors when DVD attempts to start no matter what audio codec i use.

does thie mpeg dec support DVD menu highlights/selection? If so i would be keen to try get it working (though i need reclock in the loop), if not i'll keep using WinDVD5 codec for DVD, and elecard 2510 build for file playback.

i just runned a fast test with and for me the dvd menu worked and i also could use reclock audio render in zoomplayer RC1 using vmr7

Grooby, I am using DVI from an ATI 9600, Cat 4.6 drivers.

Any idea why on WM9 HD files I have a big difference of gamma/lum in YV12 and YUY2 ?
I don't have this problem at all with DVDs.
On WM9 HD files, if I use YV12, the image is a lot more bright...

By the way, on these files, ffdshow says it gets YV12 as input.
If I disable ffdshow, ReClock says it gets YUY2... so which one is right ?

Thx :)

@ Owen

I would like to add my personal opinion about Denoise3D to the ongoing discussion. You stated that Denoise3D does a very good job at reducing noise with no/hardly visible side effects. Well, you are right, Denoise3D is a very good NoiseReduction filter based on video material. It's quality is no where near the quality of some photo NR filter like Noise Ninja, but those rely on some heavy processing power and specific noise profiles for the used camera/ISO setting in order to distinguish noise from detail.
Video based NR filter TRY to distinguish noise from detail by identifying temporarly visible pixel structures over time. They "think" any temporarly appearing/visible fine pixel pattern is noise. That's true most if the time. BUT due to the very limited resolution capabilities of todays DVDs those temporary pixel patterns also hold microdetail thats lost after you use denoise3d. You cannot bring it back by sharpening the picture afterwards because these pixel structures are lost. Sharpening a picture does not add any detail to the picture it just ajusts local contrast around details.

ANY NR filter results in a loss in detail, whether it is visible or not depends on filter settings and personal setup/preferences.

BUT the real problems about using denoise3d as standard filter are:

There are no general filter settings that work well with any DVD. To get usable results you would have to adjust settings not just on a per DVD but on a per scene basis. As a professional photographer it takes me about 10 minutes to tweak/adjust the NR filter settings for one single photo in order to get usable results. And that is with already using pre-tweaked noise profiles for my particular camera. It always depends on the scene and the what I would like to express with the photo.
Owen, take your Matrix I DVD (I bet you have one lying around somewhere) and jump to the scene where NEO gets interrogated by Agent Smith for the very first time (after they captured him at work). There is a considerable amount of noise visible in the background (on the plain greenish walls). Use any Denoise3D setting you can come up with. Everthing you try with this filter will result in an unacceptable, very digital look. Denoise3D turns the fine, fast moving film grain into fixed, slowly changing big areas of filtered/smoothed noise = single coloured areas. It looks like a cheap Divx/1 CD rip version of the movie. You cannot tell me that you like that, do you!

Noise is (mainly) a characteristic of film based material -> analog look. A movie shot on analog film always shows film grain to some extend. That has nothing to do with bad DVD transfers. Noisy DVD tranfers are much less an issue with todays high quality DVDs as they were some years ago. Severe noise is (mainly) due to the usage of high speed film material (comparable to high ISO settings in photography, e.g. Lost in Translation shot on high speed = grainy Kodak film) and/or part of the style the director desires for his movie (e.g. James Ryan, Seven,...). A grainy transfer gives an rough, unpleasant look. Imagine a war movie like James Ryan with a very smooth look to it...

Owen (and all the others), if you really like what you see with Denoise3D use it. BUT don`t tell people that there are no visible (bad) side effects. Any effect comes with a side effect. And those side effects are severe and unpredictable. It may work for one scene of a movie quite well but make the very next one unwatchable. What it does for sure is altering the desired look of the movie. If there would be a "good" NR filter setting that works in the majority of situations good enough I would have a lot less work to do as a photographer. Noise reduction HAS to be done on a per scene/per picture basis. Leave this job to the movie companies that produce the DVDs. They give it the look they want for their DVDs by using NR filter to a certain extend (during EVERY SINGLE DVD transfer process NR filter are used).

BUT if you like it - use it!

"It may work for one scene of a movie quite well but make the very next one unwatchable."

hehe oki now i know im not a HTPC dude :) since all those crappy divx5 rips or VCD look "unwatchable" to me, the new xvid 1.01 rips look's pretty good.
But i never came up with a DVD wich looks "unwatchable" by just adding a noise reduction filter?

The truth is for quite a long time i was using the "noise" filter's in ffdshow to add noise on rips for a more natural film look. :)

PS: just a small question, are u HTPC dudes REALY see those diff. from Lanczos3-4-5 or denoise3d on/off.... yv12 vs yuy2 and so on, or is this always a never ending run for a "subjective" perfect image. I just wonder since i sometimes realy think u guy's (pls forgive me) overreacting sometimes a bit with picture quality :)

@ AndyIEG

The particular Matrix scene described above looks with Denoise 3D (0,5 0,5 5 HQ;0,5 1 5 HQ; 0,5 0,5 4 HQ; whatever... ) every bit as bad as a 1 CD Divx Rip-version I also "own". It is objectively UNWATCHABLE on my 130'' screen (Sharp 10k 720p DLP HIGH END Front projector). Watching it on anything smaller/worse I would probably just live with it.

Once you use Lanczos3 resizing to the native resolution and some sharpening applied the differences/advantages of different filters/settings become quite subtile. Definitly not worth the time required to tweak it BUT makes for quite an addictive hobby...

Originally posted by AndyIEG
PS: just a small question, are u HTPC dudes REALY see those diff. from Lanczos3-4-5 or denoise3d on/off.... yv12 vs yuy2 and so on, or is this always a never ending run for a "subjective" perfect image. I just wonder since i sometimes realy think u guy's (pls forgive me) overreacting sometimes a bit with picture quality :)

LOL. How true!

What happens is that the more money you spend, the more flaws in the input become visible and the more you tend to watch for the flaws you have become aware of.

This, as you may imagine, is quite frustrating.

I try to console myself (usually successfully) with the knowledge that when I am watching an older film that I am seeing it looking better than I ever have except with a clean print in a theater, something unlikely to ever happen again.

We have also become aware that historically, much picture quality has been left on the floor for lack of proper adjustment and that picture processing can have substantial benefits. FFDShow is a fine example of that.

Then there is the problem that there is no objective way to determine whether a minute change brings us closer or further from the perfect original image. If we had a perfect image to compare to, we would play it instead of the DVD and quit complaining.

So subjective judgment is all we have. In general, we can't even compare our results with those of others because good viewing systems are quite dispersed and screen shots have little or nothing to do with how the image looks on our display equipment and in our environment.

So we see the rise of individuals who believe in green pen techniques and that they can here jitter with modern equipment transplanted from the audio realm. They gain sway like politicians, by repeating the lies often enough that they enter the conventional wisdom. (Having made that provocative comparison, let me say that this thread has rarely devolved to that level.)

Nonetheless, FFDShow provides substantial visible benefits despite the occasional quibbling about specific options. Since it is not always clear what the actual effects of the various options are, there is plenty of room for debate about what produces the best results, particularly when the differences are small.

Originally posted by AndyIEG
PS: just a small question, are u HTPC dudes REALY see those diff. from Lanczos3-4-5 or denoise3d on/off.... yv12 vs yuy2 and so on, or is this always a never ending run for a "subjective" perfect image. I just wonder since i sometimes realy think u guy's (pls forgive me) overreacting sometimes a bit with picture quality :)

Lanczos 3 to 5, yes, denoise3d on/off absolutely.. YV12vs YUY2 must depend on your hardware and how the up/downsampling is handled, because on my setup I can't see any difference whatsoever even when comparing still screen caps.

Hey Andy... are you done with doing ASM opts for MMX? I really appreciate all your optimization work, but unfortunately my HTPC uses an athlon xp 2100+, so I can't take advantage of the SSE2 build. I'm debating replacing it with a cheap p4/a64 platform because I'm going to transition from DVI to the ATI component dongle and hopefully be able to output native 1080i rather than 540p. At that point I'll need to resize higher, so I think I'll need the xtra horsepower if you don't plan on implementing the Bicubic resize opts to MMX I think I'll pull the trigger on the hardware purchase. What say you sir?

what the hell I just installed the latest ffdshow sse2 from
http://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/ffdshow/ffdshow-20040709_SSE2.exe

and now nothing in zoom player works, everything says it can't talk to ffdshow.

am I the only one getting this?

Did you check the RAW format?

Originally posted by setherd
what the hell I just installed the latest ffdshow sse2 from
http://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/ffdshow/ffdshow-20040709_SSE2.exe

and now nothing in zoom player works, everything says it can't talk to ffdshow.

am I the only one getting this?

hopefull yes :) what real error message u get and what u try wich dont work anymore?

@TruckChase sorry but it's not a 5min job to convert sse2 code to mmx2 code and since i can only use sse2 code for a further 64bit testversion i will not do more mmx2 stuff.

Originally posted by AndyIEG
@TruckChase sorry but it's not a 5min job to convert sse2 code to mmx2 code and since i can only use sse2 code for a further 64bit testversion i will not do more mmx2 stuff.

Yah that's cool, thanks. I just wanted to know for sure before I pulled the trigger on the new hardware purchase. Thanks for all your work!

Originally posted by BangoO
Andy, I can't go above something * 1536, otherwise I get a completely unwatchable image (it's either zoomed and deformed or I get only green bars).

I'm using VMR9 on a Radeon 9700 Pro video card, WinDVD 6 Video filter via ZP and the latest ffdshow...
Any ideas guys ?
Now it works and I have no idea why.
I can't go over 2048*2048 though or I get a black screen...
So the new question is... should I keep multiples of 720*480, or the higher the better (I use VMR9) ?

Originally posted by madpoet
Did you check the RAW format?

DOH!
for some reason I decided to uninstall before upgrading this time and I didn't realize I lost all my settings!

thanks!

Seems this mpeg dec does not like to play with Reclock.

Same for me.

Originally posted by Owen
Gazzagazza,
We have been through the Denoise3d removing detail issue before, have we not?

As for your comment, that you can’t see a reduction in noise unless you use higher settings, frankly I find hard to believe.


You have already stated that Denoise3d used at my recommended setting of 0.5 1.0 5.0 HQ does NOT noticeably remove detail.
Me thinks you should make up your mind. :D



Owen, I think you're taking this too personally. This is a discussion forum where we all share our experience. Its clear there is enough variation from system to system for many points of view to be valid. I was using a Sapphire 9000. I have since changed to a 9600 and after the change reported I could indeed see the noise removal you talked about. But I still believe there is an effect I don't like on skin tone >on my system<. Each of us needs to make our own judgement in the context of our own system and expectations. Me, I'll just stick to resize with no sharpen or any other filters...

Might be a stupid question but how do you use ffdshow and windvd/powerdvd in conjunction? Theres no option to add a filter? Thanks,

Ben

Originally posted by bcherb2
Might be a stupid question but how do you use ffdshow and windvd/powerdvd in conjunction? Theres no option to add a filter? Thanks,

Ben

Purchase Zoom Player Pro.

I would like to apologize to you all and gazzagazza in particular for my heavy handed response to criticism of Denoise3d.
My worry is that new or inexperienced users of FFDShow are often heavily influenced by negative comments about filters or settings.
Unlike experience users who should have experimented with all possible options and know what works for them and why, the inexperienced or new users often just skim through this forum to find out what others are using and just use the same filters and settings that other appear to be using, without fully understanding why they should or should not use those filters or settings.
I fear that negative comments about Denoise3d may dissuade people from trying Denoise3d and that would be a great shame, since Denoise3d will work very well for most people with most DVD’s most of the time.
There are still many people using Gradual denoise because it was once recommended and was the best option at the time, even though it has very noticeable and unpleasant negative side affects.
Denoise3d has made Gradual Denoise obsolete IMHO and its negative side affects are minimal and will go unnoticed by most users on most DVD’s most of the time.

I now leave Denoise3d enabled all the time and find no need to fiddle with its settings from DVD to DVD. I also don’t remember ever coming across a DVD or a scene where I felt that I should disable Denoise3d due to visible negative side affects.
I am sure that if I analyzed every scene of a DVD I could find some that looked worse with Denoise3d, but I have to say that those scenes are few and fare between.
For me, and I believe most users, Denoise3d works great better then 90% of the time and that is a remarkable performance from any video filter.

Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there will always be those who will dislike Denoise3d, just as there are people that dislike resizing, sharpening or just FFDShow in general and that is there privilege.



Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Well said Owen
And you are correct but it is not just AVS transients that put weight on experienced members opinions.
I have been guilty of this myself. I do not mind trying different things but sometimes I find it frustrating that I spend so much time tweaking and less time watching movies.
When I tried DN3D I did not like it BUUUUT I think I had the setting to high as it was visibly distorting the image if i remember correctly. I will try again.
Also
How the heck do you adj on the fly? Can you do this w/o hitting Apply?
I would love to be able to move the sliders and watch the image for effect at the same time.

Steve

Originally posted by Owen
I would like to apologize to you all and gazzagazza in particular for my heavy handed response to criticism of Denoise3d...

Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there will always be those who will dislike Denoise3d, just as there are people that dislike resizing, sharpening or just FFDShow in general and that is there privilege.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Good on yah mate... well said. Onwards and upwards...

Is anyone else using the free decoder AndyIEG posted? It doesn't seem to have any problems with copy protection or region coding, and quality-wise it looks comparable to the PowerDVD 5 codec I was using prior. Furthermore, it's Fast (note the capital F) and, what's quite nice for ffdshow users, it outputs YV12, so ffdshow doesn't have to perform any colorspace conversion, and you don't have to run a filter before resize to get decent CPU usage. Now if somebody would just implement Dolby Headphone into AC3filter, I wouldn't have to screw around with Cyberlink's filters at all.

Flanger

QUOTE TheLion
”Video based NR filter TRY to distinguish noise from detail by identifying temporarly visible pixel structures over time. They "think" any temporarly appearing/visible fine pixel pattern is noise. That's true most if the time. BUT due to the very limited resolution capabilities of todays DVDs those temporary pixel patterns also hold microdetail thats lost after you use denoise3d. You cannot bring it back by sharpening the picture afterwards because these pixel structures are lost. Sharpening a picture does not add any detail to the picture it just ajusts local contrast around details.”

This is true, but one should remember that often the microdetail to which you refer is sometimes illusory and that adding noise to video can make it appear to contain more detail then it actually does and can also help to reduce the visibility of compression macroblocks.

QUOTE TheLion
“ANY NR filter results in a loss in detail, whether it is visible or not depends on filter settings and personal setup/preferences.”

Agreed.


”BUT the real problems about using denoise3d as standard filter are:

There are no general filter settings that work well with any DVD. To get usable results you would have to adjust settings not just on a per DVD but on a per scene basis.”

Maybe not any DVD but most DVD’s and scenes.

QUOTE TheLion
“As a professional photographer it takes me about 10 minutes to tweak/adjust the NR filter settings for one single photo in order to get usable results. And that is with already using pre-tweaked noise profiles for my particular camera. It always depends on the scene and the what I would like to express with the photo.”

Noise reduction with video is MUCH easier then still photo’s as pixels can be compared to adjoining frames.

QUOTE TheLion
“Owen, take your Matrix I DVD (I bet you have one lying around somewhere) and jump to the scene where NEO gets interrogated by Agent Smith for the very first time (after they captured him at work). There is a considerable amount of noise visible in the background (on the plain greenish walls). Use any Denoise3D setting you can come up with. Everthing you try with this filter will result in an unacceptable, very digital look. Denoise3D turns the fine, fast moving film grain into fixed, slowly changing big areas of filtered/smoothed noise = single coloured areas. It looks like a cheap Divx/1 CD rip version of the movie. You cannot tell me that you like that, do you!”

I do not have, and have never seen a DVD of Matrix I.
I do have a copy of Matrix II, but I have never even watched it though to the end. It’s just not my kind of movie. However I believe I do know the sort of problem you are referring to, although I have never seen anything as server as what you describe.
For me, noise or grain is never eliminated leaving a smooth area, it is only reduced in intensity.

QUOTE TheLion
“Noise is (mainly) a characteristic of film based material -> analog look. A movie shot on analog film always shows film grain to some extend. That has nothing to do with bad DVD transfers. Noisy DVD tranfers are much less an issue with todays high quality DVDs as they were some years ago. Severe noise is (mainly) due to the usage of high speed film material (comparable to high ISO settings in photography, e.g. Lost in Translation shot on high speed = grainy Kodak film) and/or part of the style the director desires for his movie (e.g. James Ryan, Seven,...). A grainy transfer gives an rough, unpleasant look. Imagine a war movie like James Ryan with a very smooth look to it...”

The noise I seek to remove is not related to film grain but due to the Mpeg compression process. It has been called mosquito noise and is often seen as crawling walls and pixilation on flat surfaces and in shadows.
This gives Mpeg video a very “Digital” look, and I find it very distracting.
Denoise3d does a good job of removing this noise and helps to provide a less digital looking image IMHO.

QUOTE TheLion
“Owen (and all the others), if you really like what you see with Denoise3D use it. BUT don`t tell people that there are no visible (bad) side effects. Any effect comes with a side effect. And those side effects are severe and unpredictable. It may work for one scene of a movie quite well but make the very next one unwatchable. What it does for sure is altering the desired look of the movie. If there would be a "good" NR filter setting that works in the majority of situations good enough I would have a lot less work to do as a photographer. Noise reduction HAS to be done on a per scene/per picture basis. Leave this job to the movie companies that produce the DVDs. They give it the look they want for their DVDs by using NR filter to a certain extend (during EVERY SINGLE DVD transfer process NR filter are used).”

Yes, Denoise3d can remove some detail from some scenes, depending on settings used, but this has to be weighed against the substantial reduction in mpeg compression noise and artifacts.
I think you are exaggerating the side effects, and I have never seen any scene on and DVD with severe side effects or been rendered next to unmatchable by Denoise3d at my standard settings, but that does not mean that such a situation does not exist, it’s just that it is rare.
Movie companies can do nothing about Mpeg compression noise as it is a limitation of the Mpeg system and data rate used.
If they really cared about quality, they would cut out all the useless junk that they use to fill up a dual layer DVD, and use the entire 9Gig for the move and basic titles.

It would seem that some people really don’t notice compression noise and artifacts, or some displays just don’t show it clearly and I consider them very lucky.

For me, compression related noise and artifacts are very noticeable on any DVD, even when using the cleanest most noise free software decoder available. This adds greatly to the digital look of DVD and a reduction in believability and enjoyment.
Denoise3d is of great benefit in reducing this problem.


TheLion,

I do take your point that Denoise3d can reduce detail in some circumstances , and that should not be ignored but neither should Denoises ability to greatly improve overall quality.
It just comes down to what aspects of performance best suit your display and personal preference.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by Flanger
Is anyone else using the free decoder AndyIEG posted?

I'd love to, but it causes errors when used with reclock....

Originally posted by Mark_A_W
Same for me.

Mark, your system must be jinxed!!! :) hehe

Maybe its a PAL thing?
At least im not alone in conflicts with ReClock.



This Denoise3D bashing :) has made me try some new settings.

I know run Gradual Denoise at a mild 30 first (for CPU usage reasons) followed by a 2 x PAL DVD resize (1440 x 1152).

I would have to say this has provided me the cleanest picture yet, without (on my system) costing detail.
I used gradual denoise before, but after resize (i think put something else before resize for CPU) then moved to denoise3d first with resize following.
Perhaps its the gradual denoise before the resize/sharpen that has improved things on my system, but things look smoother, less edgy, less pixelation artifacts yet great detail (ie on faces etc).

And for once this settings seems to look good both my PJ (X1) and CRT monitor.

Each to their own.

QUOTE Owen

"The noise I seek to remove is not related to film grain but due to the Mpeg compression process. It has been called mosquito noise and is often seen as crawling walls and pixilation on flat surfaces and in shadows.
This gives Mpeg video a very “Digital” look, and I find it very distracting.
Denoise3d does a good job of removing this noise and helps to provide a less digital looking image IMHO. "

Come on, Owen. Are you trying to suggest that Denoise3D (and any other NR filter for that matter) can not just distinguish noise (in general) from detail but also film grain noise from mosquito noise? It filters any noise the same way no matter what its origin is.

Quote myself "unwatchable" -> well, thats subjectiv. I'm very sensible to bad side effects of NR, as I use it on a daily basis in photography. When I started to use it a few years ago I was amazed about the possiblities and the look. But the longer you use it the more you become aware of the side effects (as it is with sharpening). And I have developed quite an eye for them. Denoise3D (as I clearly stated) is the very best real time, video based NR filter I have ever had the pleasure to play with. It is certainly FAR more advanced than Gradual Blur (what isn't?), with way better results and far less obvious side effects. You will not see ANY obvious side effects looking at rich textured scenes. When I "judge" the quality of a NR filter I always look at untextured/very light textured areas of a picture -> e.g. blue sky, plain single coloured walls,... Let's take a sky: You have the blue-white base layer and usually quite heavy noise all over it. Now comes Denoise3D.Whether you end up with less noise (as you stated) or no noise at all depends not just on your Denoise3D settings but on the noise itself (fast/slowly moving, fine grained or not,...). The result is unpredictable. You will find ALOT of scenes where the filtered sky will be free of noise but now consists of (ugly) big color patches that don`t blend into each other very well. -> one of the MAIN characteristics/flaws of DIVX/XVID... encoded movies. (DIVX always uses NR to help compression (less details))

@ AndyIEG

Is there any chance you are working on "flawless"(no green bug, horizontal lines bug), SSE2 optimized versions of Lanczos 5 and 6. I really consider Lanczos6 the sweet spot of ffdshow resizing for all guys with a enough horsepower to run it and a high end display device. For me it will be the final touch in order to make ffdshow the "perfect" tool.

Thank you very much!!!

Can someone explain the differences between the lanczos 1-2-3... ?
Also, is it better to resize at multiples of the original signal or the higher the better ?
That means... for NTSC content and using VMR9, should I use 1440*1960 or 2048*2048 ?

Using multiples of the original is generally considered the best option.

There has been some debate on the best way to go about resizing. I currently set output resolution to my tv at 1776x1000. Not exactly a multiple of DVD resolution. Is it best if I resize directly to 1776x1000 or should I resize to a multiple such as 1440x960 and have the vid card scale to my ouput rez?

JD

Your output resolution is different than what you are using FFDShow to resize to. I output at 1280x720 to my projector, but I let FFDShow upscale to 2160x1440 currently before the video card downscales it.

I can't go above 2048 using VMR9 and a Radeon card, I don't know if it's normal...

Originally posted by TheLion
@ AndyIEG

Is there any chance you are working on "flawless"(no green bug, horizontal lines bug), SSE2 optimized versions of Lanczos 5 and 6. I really consider Lanczos6 the sweet spot of ffdshow resizing for all guys with a enough horsepower to run it and a high end display device. For me it will be the final touch in order to make ffdshow the "perfect" tool.

Thank you very much!!!

i will try add this next weekend

@BangoO try VMR7 or upgrade your graphics drivers, but seems ATI dont support sucha high resolutions for VMR7/9 atm (since even HDTV dont use sucha high resolutions) on nvidia cards with latest drivers u can go higher as far as my own test showed.

Thx Andy... can someone confirm that he uses resolutions above 2048 with a Radeon card, and tell me with what Catalyst ?
I don't like upgrading my Catalysts before being sure it helps :D

I am posting my questions in this thread but hope it didn;t get lost in the more philisophical debates.

I have just put together my first HTPC around an AthlonXP 2500+, Radeon 9600XT, 1GB ram, ZoomPlayer VMR9 and ffdshow. I am using PowerDVD codec.
My fdshow setting are Gradual denoise and Resize at 1280x720 using Lanczos.
The playback is smooth, but the image doesn't fill the whole 1280x720 even though the output says it is 1280x720. I have black bars each side of the image on my 1280x720 projector. The image also seems squished horizontally.
when playing with settings of ffdshow, I switch the aspect ration in Resize from "Keep original aspect ration" to "No aspect ratio correction". Now the image look ok; proper aspect ration and filling up the entire panel. However, the plaback is just a bit jerky. The cpu hover around 80%-90%.
I have to disable denoise to get a smooth playback.
How do you guys manage to resize to extreme resolution? I know there is faster cpu out there, but an Athlon 2500 is not that bad?
I am also planning on switching to sonic codec; do you think it will made a difference?

Is there any hope for my setup?
Thanks

You might have to drop back to Overlay. Your system may not handle VMR9.

FP007
I had the exact issue.
I switched to Win DVD decoders and all was well.

Thanks madpoet. Parond my ignorance, but I was under the impression that WMR9 was exploiting more the potential of the video card (and less the cpu) since it requires DirectX9. By the way, what are the benefits/drawbacks of Overlay and WMR9?

VMR9 produces better colors and the whole luminance range (0-255), that means it can display blacker than black and whiter than white.
The image is also less harsh and produces less halos.
Now... the difference is not huge, so try Overlay and tell us what you think :)

just a small info from me, if u dont use a HDTV or projector for output and u arnt "Videophile" trained, u wont see a diff. from overlay to VMR7/9.

I myself cant see any diff. in quality or whiter than white .... using overlay or VMR7. It all looks the same to me, for me it matters more to adjust brighness/contrast/gamma/luma offset correct, since this is what u see on a "normal" output device.

Just out of curiosity (and hopefully not in the wrong thread) but for those of you using VMR7, what are you using it in (and does it use ICM profiles like VMR7)? As far as I can find, ZoomPlayer is just VMR9 or overlay.

The tearing in VMR9 after adding ffdshow processing is driving me nuts (different tearing depending on how much processor load but never over 60% on the single virtual CPU). Overlay locks up for some reason and I was hoping to be able to use my spyder for ICM profiling so VMR7 would be an option if I can figure it out.

Using VMR7 in Zoom player Pro. Using NVidia FWMM Video and Audio filters, along with the FWMM Video Post Proc and FFDShow.

Vern

Newest Zoomplayer release candidate has VMR7 selection right below VMR9.

pcgeek,

Good question. I'll try getting an icm profile to work with VMR7 just to see. Profiles work well with VMR9 - too bad about the tearing on your system.

Charlie

Most of the people get some tearing since ages... funny this has not been fixed yet :)
By the way... who is the responsible for this... ATI/NVidia, MS, who ? :D

Hello,

I have read from page 70 to see if my answer was there, but it wasnt.

I am running:

P4, 2.6ghz, 1GB, XP Pro

ZP4 and FFDShow 20040709_SSE2

ZP works fine with PowerDVD5 decoders, both in overlay and VMR( (once I found that you have to turn it on in the BASIC section rather than the ADVANCED)

My problems begin when I choose Additional Filters: FFDShow Video Processor

I have raw set to all, and only have the OSD turned on. When I start a ripped DVD, ZP crashes out with a send error report.

I have uninstalled and re-installed FFD, but still have the problem.

Thanks!

Edit:

I was playing an avi created by sage tv in WM9, and i noticed a green OSD in the top left corner, which I had never seen before. Turns out it is FFDshows OSD.
If I turn it off in the configurator, it goes.


__________________
In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?

I also have the same problem.
Bump ;-)

Originally posted by TheLion
Come on, Owen. Are you trying to suggest that Denoise3D (and any other NR filter for that matter) can not just distinguish noise (in general) from detail but also film grain noise from mosquito noise? It filters any noise the same way no matter what its origin is.

No, noise filters do not distinguish between film grain and other noise and I don’t have a problem with that. I personally dislike film grain almost as much as compression noise, so less of it is a good thing IMHO.
Luckily, I find very few DVD's with substantial film grain. It would seem that the mastering houses filter out as much as they can, and in a lot of cases they are remarkably successful as many newer DVD’s show no film grain at all.
I have never seen a DVD that is free of compression noise and if I remove film grain as well as compression noise I am a happy camper. Noise is noise in my book, and I don’t want to look at it. I generally don’t enjoy DVD’s that have poor or inaccurate color or noise of any kind.
I like my display to look like a window into the scene, just like being there. So the closer I get to this goal, the better I like it.
I know this is blasphemy to the film purists out there, and there will be howls about directors intent, but I really don’t give a damn.

Detail is a different mater entirely. I like as much detail as I can get without inducing a harsh or digital looking image in keeping with my “window into the scene” goals.

I have played many scenes on many normal quality DVD’s over and over again, with and without Denoise3d and as much as I try, I just can’t notice any lose of detail, but the removal of noise is blatantly obvious. I have to say this has made me happy, as it is always a worry when someone points out a defect. Once you notice it you generally can’t ignore it and it then drives you nuts.
Well I am happy to say that has not happened. Luck me.:D


Originally posted by TheLion

Quote myself "unwatchable" -> well, thats subjectiv. I'm very sensible to bad side effects of NR, as I use it on a daily basis in photography. When I started to use it a few years ago I was amazed about the possiblities and the look. But the longer you use it the more you become aware of the side effects (as it is with sharpening). And I have developed quite an eye for them. Denoise3D (as I clearly stated) is the very best real time, video based NR filter I have ever had the pleasure to play with. It is certainly FAR more advanced than Gradual Blur (what isn't?), with way better results and far less obvious side effects. You will not see ANY obvious side effects looking at rich textured scenes. When I "judge" the quality of a NR filter I always look at untextured/very light textured areas of a picture -> e.g. blue sky, plain single coloured walls,... Let's take a sky: You have the blue-white base layer and usually quite heavy noise all over it. Now comes Denoise3D.Whether you end up with less noise (as you stated) or no noise at all depends not just on your Denoise3D settings but on the noise itself (fast/slowly moving, fine grained or not,...). The result is unpredictable. You will find ALOT of scenes where the filtered sky will be free of noise but now consists of (ugly) big color patches that don`t blend into each other very well. -> one of the MAIN characteristics/flaws of DIVX/XVID... encoded movies. (DIVX always uses NR to help compression (less details))

I am familiar with the blocky, flat colored areas and artifacting to which you refer and it is often visible on over compressed divx files and satellite transmissions, but I have to say that my current playback system is free of any such problem and has been for some time now.
I most certainly did get that problem in the past, mainly when I used to use a Geforce card, but now using a Radeon, even divx and xvid files do not show this problem on my system.
I really disliked those blocky flat colors and I’m very glad to be without them.

The use of Denoise3d has not degraded this aspect or performance on my system.
In fact, I am constantly amazed at how good divx and xvid source looks.
Again, lucky me. :D

Have you considered the possibility that you have a problem with your playback system that is causing the “(ugly) big color patches that don`t blend into each other very well” ?

Some DVD decoders have a big problem with exactly that issue. The NVDVD 2.5 decoder was a shocker for it and others are not the best as well.
Elecard decoder (2510) has never exhibited this fault on my system.


Regards,

Owen

Well, Owen, if you don't like to see noise of any kind - than Denoise3D is heaven for you!

"single colored areas" - well our current DVD MPEG2 standard does not handle color/chroma information very well (it is highly compressed, even more with PAL (which I use most of the time)). If you have large flat colored areas like skies noise helps/tends to hide harsh color transitions. If you use NR filters you never know whats beneath that "noise-curtain"...

But, who cares. You can`t stand to look at noise - Denoise3D is clearly the way to go. I want to have the original movie experience, the way the movie "was meant to look like" - I will use Denoise3D as well - just not as standard filter, but just for very bad (old) DVD transfers. We both are happy with our results, the world is in harmony...

My Setup: Ati Radeon 9800Pro, Intel Pentium 4 3,2GHz@~3,85GHz (watercooled), VMR9 in ZP, Codecs Moonlight/Elecard 25.10/25.25 but now I clearly prefer Nvidia Forceware MMA 3 (the not entirely official release version...), NvPP->YV12 ,ffdshow: levels (14,235-0,255),Lanczos4 resizing to 720p,YV12 Output, DVI -> Sharp 10k Front-projector DLP 720p -> 130'' Firehawk screen. In my opinion this setup is at good as it gets right now.

And Owen, may I suggest that you try resizing to your native output resolution (if your display device has one). I think to remember that you are one of the "the higher you resize the better" guys. I spend about 7 hours to make up my mind if Lanczos4 resizing to 1280/720 (native output resolution, no VMR9 resizing involved) or 1920/1728 (or 1920/1440 for NTSC) with VMR9 downscaling to 720p is the "better" solution.

I took about 3 dozen screenshots from scenes with rich details and compared them directly with each other (ACDSEE Zoom to 500%, zoom&pan lock, switching between pictures per mouse wheel). In any single comparison resizing directly to 720p wins hand down!!! It is somewhat sharper, details are better defined and seperated from each other, frequency response is better (look at some DVE test charts). Resize to 1728p and VMR9 resize back to 720p looks softer and blurs/interpolates details.

I think the reason why some of you may think that resizing to very high resolutions is the better choice is because they compared it from within Zoomplayer. First I tried to do that as well. I opened two instances of Zoomplayer (one with ffdshow resizing to 720p, the other with 1728p), zoomed both images and switched per Taskmanager between them - guess what - 1728p looked WAY BETTER. But this is because you compare a zoomed 720p picture with an zoomed 1728p picture - 1728p wins hands down (-> MUCH better detail definition). But thats without the downscaling done by your videocard (VMR9) back to 720p.

!!!So never compare resizing to different resolution within Zoomplayer (by zooming in to judge details), always take screenshots, zoom and switch between them!!!

So Owen, if its a detailed picture you are after, than resizing to the native resolution of your output device (if there is any) without involving a second VMR9/VMR7/Overlay downscale may proof to be the best solution. Give it a try!

I've tried exactly what you suggested, and I'm still in the "resize till it hurts" camp. On both my AE500 (native 720p) and Hitachi 57XWX20B (native 1080i) giving it as much resizeas possible before the video card downscales gives me an image that I prefer.

In the end though, that's what this is all about. The image you prefer.

-MP

Woohoo! I replaced my motherboard and CPU yesterday with Abit KV8 Pro and Athlon 64 3000+. (What a pain!) I then downloaded TT which gave me some problems for a while until I uninstalled a whole bunch of software. I then connected my projector to my PC through a DVI-> VGA convertor and a 10 foot KVM cable. I then installed FFDshow (ffdshow-20040709_SSE2.exe) and this initially killed TT, but now it works (not sure why).

My FFDshow settings:
Denoise 3D: 0.5, 0.5, 5
Resize: 1440 x 960
Lancos parameter 4, Luma 1.2, chorma 1.0 (is this a good value? - didn't quite understand Andy's comments about this), interlaced not checked (should it be?)
CPU usage is running 60-70%


Still a few issues to work out:

I'm outputting to a 800 x 600 projector. When I had this set as my secondary display, TT would crash but it works if I make it my primary display. (saw a thread about that somehwere...) I have the settings for the projector set as 800 x 600, 72 Hz.

I can't get the aspect ratio correct - I've only tried watching 2.35:1 movies. I don't really understand how the aspect ratio gets set between FFDshow and TT.

It's bright daylight here, so I can't comment on any PQ improvements yet - can barely see the picture LOL! I hope to get the thing in shape for some viewing tonight however.

Thanks for any suggestions
john


rest of hardware: 512 MB 3200 DDR, Radeon 9600 pro

Oh, the other thing was that Cineplayer DVD decoder pack did not appear in the control panel as was suggested by the article on HTPC news. Is it supposed to be there?

john

TheLion,

My Zoom Player Screenshot (ALT-f) is not working so I was wondering if that is the same for you or if you use a different technique.

Charlie

Charlie,

first of all make sure you use either VMR7 or 9 (Overlay doesn`t allow for screenshots). Then just make a bookmark at the exact frame you want to compare. Pause your playback there. Press the key that reads "Print" on your keyboard. Open your image editor. Choose "paste" to import the screenshot. Save the picture as TIFF (JPEG will add compression artifacts). Done.

Originally posted by BangoO
Any idea why on WM9 HD files I have a big difference of gamma/lum in YV12 and YUY2 ?
I don't have this problem at all with DVDs.
On WM9 HD files, if I use YV12, the image is a lot more bright...

By the way, on these files, ffdshow says it gets YV12 as input.
If I disable ffdshow, ReClock says it gets YUY2... so which one is right ?

Thx :)
Bump :)

My strange problem is I can't get even decimal places in Denoise3D. Closest I can get is .49, 1.05, 5.05. What would cause that?

Ohoh... in fact I have the same lum/gama difference between YUYZ and YV12 in DVDs as well...

Originally posted by Wireless
My strange problem is I can't get even decimal places in Denoise3D. Closest I can get is .49, 1.05, 5.05. What would cause that?

I've noticed that you can make fine adjustments with the left and right arrow keys rather than trying to pull the sliders with your mouse. Does that fix the problem?

john

I installed the free MPEG decoder, looks good. Plus with it I can use VMR7, Denoise3d and still resize to 1920x1080. ;)

pcgeek,

I tried a icm profile made by Optical in Zoom Player VMR7 and it seems to work fine. I have only played about 10 minutes of video but no problems have cropped up yet. Of course, overlay still does not work with icm profiles.

Charlie

Originally posted by Wireless
My strange problem is I can't get even decimal places in Denoise3D. Closest I can get is .49, 1.05, 5.05. What would cause that?

Do not use mouse to change the value, just use left and right cursor to change the value.

@TheLion

Originally posted by TheLion
If you have large flat colored areas like skies noise helps/tends to hide harsh color transitions. If you use NR filters you never know whats beneath that "noise-curtain"...

Yes, I agree that noise does help hide macroblocks etc. In fact some much respected mpeg encoders add a small amount of noise to do just that.
FFDshow has had the ability to add random noise to help with the perceived visual quality of over compressed video for a long time now, but with the quality of todays decoders and post processors, I no longer see any need for this trick unless you are using a digital display where the dither created by the noise may very well result in a better overall perceived quality.
For CRT users, this is not required IMHO as CRT systems have much greater resolution of small changes in color then any current digital display that I am aware of and don’t suffer from the flat colored area and blocking problems of current digital technology.
This shortcoming in digital display performance, as well as black levels, is what has prevented me from moving to a digital display.
Maybe the next generation of DLP or LCOS etc will sway me, but it looks like I will be waiting at least a year or more before digital is up to pare for me.


Originally posted by TheLion

And Owen, may I suggest that you try resizing to your native output resolution (if your display device has one). I think to remember that you are one of the "the higher you resize the better" guys. I spend about 7 hours to make up my mind if Lanczos4 resizing to 1280/720 (native output resolution, no VMR9 resizing involved) or 1920/1728 (or 1920/1440 for NTSC) with VMR9 downscaling to 720p is the "better" solution.

I agree with you. Since FFDShow resize has now been fixed and no longer needs to be run at multiples of DVD resolution to avoid a vertical scaling bug and we can now use even better and higher tap algorithms, I have also moved to resizing direct to my display resolution of 1776x1000 from my previous setting of 1920x1728.
The avoidance of hardware scaling back down to display resolution does in deed give a sharp image.
The practice of scaling to much higher resolutions and then down scaling again does still have its place, as the slight smoothing this produces can sometimes be useful, but since FFDShows software scaling in the new version has become so amazingly effective, most people will find scaling direct to there output resolution works very well.
This is great news, as most people will now have enough power to use FFDShow resize effectively, although I find running Denise3d followed by resize to 1776x1000 using Lanczos4 and VMR9 is still very demanding and definitely beyond most systems capabilities.

Originally posted by TheLion
I think the reason why some of you may think that resizing to very high resolutions is the better choice is because they compared it from within Zoomplayer. First I tried to do that as well. I opened two instances of Zoomplayer (one with ffdshow resizing to 720p, the other with 1728p), zoomed both images and switched per Taskmanager between them - guess what - 1728p looked WAY BETTER. But this is because you compare a zoomed 720p picture with an zoomed 1728p picture - 1728p wins hands down (-> MUCH better detail definition). But thats without the downscaling done by your videocard (VMR9) back to 720p.

That’s actually an interesting concept and I must admit that I have never considered using the zoom function to do comparisons. :D
I used to resized up to very high res and back down in video hardware because it used to work best for me before the latest builds of FFDShow from Andy made it unnecessary.

Originally posted by TheLion
!!!So never compare resizing to different resolution within Zoomplayer (by zooming in to judge details), always take screenshots, zoom and switch between them!!!


That’s good advice, but I am not convinced that just comparing still images is necessarily the best way to go. Full motion video should still be an important part of any evaluation.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

So Owen... you're now in the "resize for 1:1 mapping" camp??? Bah! :). I should try it to see if I can Denoise3d after resize to 1280x720.

jpj6st, 3Dhunter

I'll try using the arrow keys. Thanks for the help.

Although new SSE2 FFDShow built has significantly improved scaling quality, I still prefer going high up (1920x1440 with Lanczos4) and than down to 1280x720 via DVI to 61" 720p RP DLP. Among other things this gives me the benefit of using shaders galore (AA, AF, LOD, Texture Sharpen) to polish up the image in 3D hardware. Scaling in FFDShow to output resolution should for the most part avoid the hardware scaling and would use shaders just to assemble the image. Scaling to output resolution still produces "harsh" image on HD2 DLP.

Okay, I've come across this question many times but never come across an answer in this forum. (at least not back to 7/03 which is as far as I read ;)

If you are using FFDshow and TheaterTek, how do you set the aspect ratio controls so that you get a correct aspect ratio on a 4:3 display?

By trial and error, I believe these to be the best aspect ratio settings:

1. In FFDshow, make sure that your resize is a multiple of DVD resolution (ie 720x480, 1080x720, 1440x960)
2. Check "Keep original aspect ratio"
3. In TheaterTek go to the "Edit" menu selection under the "Aspect Configuration" selection. (or just press Ctrl-E)
4. Click on each of the "16:9", "Letterbox", and "4:3" selections and DEselect "Lock Aspect Ratio" for each and click "Save".

voila!

Do you want to test your set up? How do you know what the correct aspect ratio of your DVD is supposed to be? I found the following website to ve very helpful:

http://www.imdb.com/

Search for the title of your movie. Select the correct match. Then down on the left hand side of the screen, click on "DVD Details"


Examples:

There are lots of 2.35:1 movies to test with. ie Star Wars Episode I, Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, etc....

The Finding Nemo 2-disc Collector's Edition has both a 16:9 and 4:3 discs.

Scream is in letterbox format.



John

Originally posted by vpopovic
Although new SSE2 FFDShow built has significantly improved scaling quality, I still prefer going high up (1920x1440 with Lanczos4) and than down to 1280x720 via DVI to 61" 720p RP DLP. Among other things this gives me the benefit of using shaders galore (AA, AF, LOD, Texture Sharpen) to polish up the image in 3D hardware. Scaling in FFDShow to output resolution should for the most part avoid the hardware scaling and would use shaders just to assemble the image. Scaling to output resolution still produces "harsh" image on HD2 DLP.

Not quite sure what AF would do, or for that matter any of the other hardware that you couldn't do in conjunction with what FFDShow allows to do as well.

Furthermore, can you explain to me what AA or AF is doing to improve your picture quality during the downconversion process to 1280x720?

Hello,

I've read all the posts concerning resize etc etc, but now I see a change in opinions and I really had to register and ask which setup you recommend.

I have a Panasonic 32" TV and I output it via S-video at 800x600.

At the moment I have 1600x1200 lanczos4 resize and 0.80 both sharpens. Nothing else on ffdshow, I think the TV "masks" noise well enough ;)

Now I'm asking if I should resize to 800x600, since that is the resolution I'm outputting and the most optimal one too. (I don't really understand what you guys mean by native resolution concerning TV's, but 768x576 is probably the best with my TV, but due to some limitations on my TV-chip I can only perfectly output 800x600, which is almost as good. A bit more overscan).

I'd really appreciate your opinions.

Originally posted by JDLIVE
I installed the free MPEG decoder, looks good. Plus with it I can use VMR7, Denoise3d and still resize to 1920x1080. ;)

What are you using for a system?

I hate to burst your bubble, Sabbe, but if you're outputting through an S-Video cable, the best resolution you'll ever get is 480i. Any changes would be, at best, minimal. You need to connect through a HD-capable connection (VGA, DVI, component) to an HD-ready TV/projector/plasma.

That being said, and given that limitation, I'd stick with resizing to 800x600, if that's your TV-out's optimal display config. Maybe a Sharpness filter (say unsharp @ 20) or Picture Properties on auto setting would work as well.

Originally posted by madpoet
So Owen... you're now in the "resize for 1:1 mapping" camp??? Bah! :). I should try it to see if I can Denoise3d after resize to 1280x720.

Yes I am resizing for 1:1 at the moment, but that does not mean that I will not go back to a much higher resize. :D I am unable to use my previous resize of 1920x1728 with Lanczos 4 and VMR9, so I started using 1:1 resize to test the new Lanczos 4 and I have been quite impressed with the results. Its certainly sharp and revealing of detail and so fare, and not overly harsh using PAL 576 line source.
Note that I am still resizing to 1776x1000 with VMR9 which is substantially higher then 1280x720 and I suspect that 1280x720 may be a bit marginal, and bordering on harsh as vpopovic has mentioned, especially if you are not using VMR9 which tends to smooth quit a bit compared to overlay.
Nonetheless, TheLion is getting good results at 1280x720 so it is definitely worth trying.

I have no chance of using Denoise3d after resize to 1776x1000 with VMR9.

If you can do it at 1280x720, I would be interested to know if Denoise3d actually works any better after resize.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

I hate to burst your bubble, Sabbe, but if you're outputting through an S-Video cable, the best resolution you'll ever get is 480i

Nup, sounds like he's in PAL land to me (the 720x576 comment). So 576i is the res that's actually getting output by the TV out of the video card.

Originally posted by Sabbe
Hello,

I've read all the posts concerning resize etc etc, but now I see a change in opinions and I really had to register and ask which setup you recommend.

I have a Panasonic 32" TV and I output it via S-video at 800x600.

At the moment I have 1600x1200 lanczos4 resize and 0.80 both sharpens. Nothing else on ffdshow, I think the TV "masks" noise well enough ;)

Now I'm asking if I should resize to 800x600, since that is the resolution I'm outputting and the most optimal one too. (I don't really understand what you guys mean by native resolution concerning TV's, but 768x576 is probably the best with my TV, but due to some limitations on my TV-chip I can only perfectly output 800x600, which is almost as good. A bit more overscan).

I'd really appreciate your opinions.

Sabbe,
It would seem that you are using TV output to a normal SD PAL 768x576i TV.
I have been there as well, using a 43” PAL SD Toshiba RPTV connected via Svideo from both Geforce and Radeon cards and I can say that it was definitely worth using resize sharpening on that setup. In fact, I first started using resize using that TV way back in the very early days of FFDshow and posted my findings on this forum, starting the whole resize sharpen thing.

Anyway, if your TV is a good one I recommend you set your Svideo TV output to 1024x768 and resize to that or maybe 1440x1152, it always worked better then 800x600 for me, but I was using a 43” TV
Since you TV is smaller, you may find 1024x768 TV out impractical even with large fonts so 800x600 will have to do, but I would still resize to 1440x1152 if you CPU is up to it.

NTSC TV users would be very surprised to see how good Svideo output can be on a good quality PAL TV.
PAL 768x576 TV out is WAY better then NTSC 640x480.
I used to have a perfectly useable 1024x768 desktop on my old PAL TV connected via Svideo.
There is no way that is possible with NTSC resolution.

People are now going to ask why it is worthwhile using a 1024x 768 desktop when the TV out chip will only output 768x576.
Well, the TV out chip must resample the desktop resolution to 768x576 and it seems to work better and retain more detail if it has a 1024x768 image to resample.
Most TV out chips cannot output a genuine unresampled 768x576 desktop.

If you need to play interlaced video on this setup you will need to deinterlace it as the resampled output destroys the true interlacing and the TV will not like that at all and show dreadful combing artifacts.
I recomend you try the ffmpeg deinterlacer in FFDShow.


Don’t sharpen Chroma as it will only increase noise, and not give any noticeable sharpness benefit.

The Dscaler Sharpness.dll filter can also be effective on a SD TV so give that a try.
Don’t be afraid to try both resize sharpen and Dscaler sharpness filters together.

What video card are you using and what TV out chip does it have?

Also, don’t forget to turn down or disable the flicker filter for TV out in the drivers or you will get a blurry image.


Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
What are you using for a system?

ASUS P4PE Mobo, P4 2.66 GHz, 1 GB RAM, ATI 9600 with Cat 4.6 drivers.

I was hoping someone could help me out with this. Over the past couple of days I added more HD space and installed the Firefly remote software which comes with the remote. Today after getting some movies downloaded and playing girder I had everything where I thought I wanted it. For some reason now when watching a movied through my HTPC onto 65 Hitachi CRT, I get like a choppy stuttering effect periodically. I reduced My F Show settings and still get the stuttering , chopiness. Even with CPU at only 50% I get it. I didn't have this problem prior to today. After looking at it it appears that I'm getting the same issue through Dscaler at only 40%, so I think that it isn't Zoomplayer or the Fshow causing it. I completely uninstalled zoomplayer and the F show and re installed and still the same issues. Anybody have a clue on what could be causing this all of the sudden. My video card is a 9600 non pro connected to the TV with the dongle. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe it's stuttering because it's reading from the hard drive...

That wouldn't effect live viewing through Dscaler. I have always played my movies pff the hard drive, so I'm not sure if that's it.Thanks

What program are you ripping movies with.

I use DVD shrink.No compresion. I have always used it, and had no issues in the past. Like I said Watching cable through capture card using Dsclaer was rock solid, but I am now getting the same jitters with it to. It does it on my DeskTop monitor also, not just the Hitachi.I am ready to go mad with this!

Originally posted by BangoO
Most of the people get some tearing since ages... funny this has not been fixed yet :)
By the way... who is the responsible for this... ATI/NVidia, MS, who ? :D
Bump :)

BangoO,

It seems like it is a MS problem. They are aware of it, and even implemented a fix for MCE and hopefully for SP2.

Still, many people have VMR9 working perfectly all ready, myself included. :D

Regards,

Owen

Thx for the info Owen.
I have very few tearing, but the fact of simply having it sometimes bothers me, so I went back to Overlay.
The difference between the 2 is not huge anyway, at least on my system...
I'll give it another try once SP2 is available ;)

Originally posted by Patriots
I was hoping someone could help me out with this. Over the past couple of days I added more HD space and installed the Firefly remote software which comes with the remote. Today after getting some movies downloaded and playing girder I had everything where I thought I wanted it. For some reason now when watching a movied through my HTPC onto 65 Hitachi CRT, I get like a choppy stuttering effect periodically. I reduced My F Show settings and still get the stuttering , chopiness. Even with CPU at only 50% I get it. I didn't have this problem prior to today. After looking at it it appears that I'm getting the same issue through Dscaler at only 40%, so I think that it isn't Zoomplayer or the Fshow causing it. I completely uninstalled zoomplayer and the F show and re installed and still the same issues. Anybody have a clue on what could be causing this all of the sudden. My video card is a 9600 non pro connected to the TV with the dongle. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

It would seem that you may have something running in the background.
Kill all unnecessary tasks in Task manager and see if that helps.

Owen

I have the same sudden stuttering problem, after years without any big problem!!! Tried the same un/re-install... no luck. Then I remember I approved of several Microsoft Updates yesterday... I have tried to uninstall a few of those, without luck. Maybe Bill Gates got too big... NO LUCK.

The stuttering appears with Sonic, WinDVD6, Powerdvd combined with zoomplayer with less than 50% CPU and above.

Originally posted by Owen
Sabbe,
It would seem that you are using TV output to a normal SD PAL 768x576i TV.
I have been there as well, using a 43” PAL SD Toshiba RPTV connected via Svideo from both Geforce and Radeon cards and I can say that it was definitely worth using resize sharpening on that setup. In fact, I first started using resize using that TV way back in the very early days of FFDshow and posted my findings on this forum, starting the whole resize sharpen thing.

Anyway, if your TV is a good one I recommend you set your Svideo TV output to 1024x768 and resize to that or maybe 1440x1152, it always worked better then 800x600 for me, but I was using a 43” TV
Since you TV is smaller, you may find 1024x768 TV out impractical even with large fonts so 800x600 will have to do, but I would still resize to 1440x1152 if you CPU is up to it.

Yes, I have a 768x576i PAL TV and I've been happy with the quality of my tv-out. I have a GF4 ti4400 with Philips SAA7108 TVchip, which is not one of the good ones... but I've been satisfied enough. I use tvtool to manage my chip and I have the optimal flicker filter settings etc.

I can say that with this TVchip the only perfect output is with 800x600. There's no other choice. And my resize to 1600x1200 at the moment takes something like 50-60% processor power (xp 2100+).

So, 800x600 is the only choice with this TVchip and I'd like to know what would be best: resizing to 768x576, 800x600 or shall I keep it at 1600x1200? Or something else entirely?

I'll remove the chroma sharpening now, but I'd like some more help with the resizing resolution.

I appreciate your input

Sabbe

Originally posted by Sabbe
Yes, I have a 768x576i PAL TV and I've been happy with the quality of my tv-out. I have a GF4 ti4400 with Philips SAA7108 TVchip, which is not one of the good ones... but I've been satisfied enough. I use tvtool to manage my chip and I have the optimal flicker filter settings etc.

I can say that with this TVchip the only perfect output is with 800x600. There's no other choice. And my resize to 1600x1200 at the moment takes something like 50-60% processor power (xp 2100+).

So, 800x600 is the only choice with this TVchip and I'd like to know what would be best: resizing to 768x576, 800x600 or shall I keep it at 1600x1200? Or something else entirely?

I'll remove the chroma sharpening now, but I'd like some more help with the resizing resolution.

I appreciate your input

Sabbe

Sabbe,

I have used many different TV options including a GF3Ti500 with the highly regarded Conexant CX25871 chip.
But the best results I ever got was with a Radeon 9600 VIVO (Video In Video Out) card that used a separate ATI Rage Theater chip for video in and TV out.
This worked better then the CX25871 and the normal TV out on regular Radeon cards and was very impressive.
The only down side was I had to adjust picture height in the TV service menu, as all Radeon TV out has a problem not filling the screen vertically.
I will also say that the video quality of the Radeon was way better the Geforce cards I have used, including a FX5200, with smoother color and much less banding and blocking visible.

Anyway, it’s just not possible to predict what resize is best for your setup.
The obvious options are 1600x800 or 1440x1152, so try both and make your own decision as to what works best.

Good luck.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

Using the Rage3D tweak one can enable proper overscan with ATI, just can only run 800 x 600 as such (Rage3d added an overstand "option" to the control panel).

As for the stuttering issue, how often is it? If its only every few mins or so it may MS Messenger. I recently installed SP1a and all patches and had such a problem, killing Ms Messenger (which is easier said than done) seemed to fix it.

On the scale to desktop topic, is it still good to scale to 1024 x 576 with PAL sources? I wouldn't think so.....hmmm currently im 1440 x 1152 2x PAL.

Originally posted by Spoonfed
Using the Rage3D tweak one can enable proper overscan with ATI, just can only run 800 x 600 as such (Rage3d added an overstand "option" to the control panel).


The only problem with going that way is that you get lots of overscan that makes the Window desktop almost unusable.
By using normal TV out mode and adjusting the TV I managed to get no overscan.
I was pretty impressed with that.

Originally posted by Spoonfed
On the scale to desktop topic, is it still good to scale to 1024 x 576 with PAL sources? I wouldn't think so.....hmmm currently im 1440 x 1152 2x PAL. [/B]

I don’t believe it was ever good to scale PAL to 1024 x 576.
Nothing has changed.

It is really only a good idea to scale to your desktop if it is substantially higher then DVD resolution IMHO.

For displays that are close to DVD resolution, it is probably best to go for double DVD res or maybe double display res and scale back down in the video card.

Regards,

Owen

___________________________
The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

DVD shrink is probably your problem. I have no idea whats going on with it.
Some rips with it are fine. I tried Barbershop2 and it skipped every 10-15min. Then used DVD decrypter and it played perfect. I love dvd shrink because the way it rips out that FBI crap but unless I can figure something else out its history.

I also once had bad memory that was causing skips and bad tearing but I doubt thats your problem. You should run a memory test anyway.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
Not quite sure what AF would do, or for that matter any of the other hardware that you couldn't do in conjunction with what FFDShow allows to do as well.

As a general matter if you resize in FFDShow to your output resolution, assumption is you are avoiding hardware scaling of your video card, using superior algorithms that FFDShow employs. So I was just referring to this general notion.

Now it is not all that simple if you are using VMRs. This might or might not be true. Based on my experience with SP2 (i.e. DX 9.0c) and new 6x.xx series drivers it does not seem to matter for 3D hardware whether FFDShow resize is 1280x720 or higher. It looks like 3D hardware will still resize the image, so all shader functions are available. In theory, your 1280x720 frame is probably built on a raster of 2560x1440 triangles (each 2 triangles probably forming a pixel), so when your rendered FFDShow image (texture) of 1280x720 needs to be framed on 2560x1440 triangles, your card will do "scaling". Here is where 3D hardware, AA, AF, LOD and texture sharpen come to play. I call it "scaling" as 3D hardware probably needs to split each pixel and map each half on a separate triangle. Assambled 1280x720 image in then passed on. With SP2 I see much less difference between 1280x720 scaling and 1920x1080 scaling than with SP1 that leads me to believe both images are scaled twice (i.e. FFDShow scaling and 3D hardware scaling).

With SP1 (i.e. DX 9.0b) and 5x.xx series drivers I believe there was a substantial difference where FFDShow resize to output resolution looked as if it was passed through 3D hardware without additional scaling. That was mostly visible around the edges of objects that were still little rough. This kind of roughness is generally ironed out with second scaling (e.g. Avisynth 1280x720 then FFDShow 1312x738, edges smooth regardless of the fact that second rezise brings only marginal pixel resolution enhancenent), so that leads me to believe there was only one scaling, FFDShow and 3D hardware somehow "passed" on scaling (e.g. perhaps DX 9.0b was maping pixel to both triangles at the same time without spliting pixel/texture, so avoiding the "scalling" work). But again, this might have been due to other reasons (different FFDShow versions used for comparison, different full screne AA and AF driver implementation etc.)


Furthermore, can you explain to me what AA or AF is doing to improve your picture quality during the downconversion process to 1280x720?

I have posted several times on this topic in various threads, including this one, so you should be able to find it.

Well, I tried resize to native 720p followed by Denoise3d. I could run it, but wasn't as fond of the results. I went back to 3x DVD resize with denoise first. Seems to work better for my LCD projector.

I tried the SP2 beta, it did not fix my tearing with VMR9. :(

Hi Andy,

would you please be so kind and have a look at this aspect ratio problem or "bug" as I would call it. ;)

It drives me crazy and I don´t understand it ( if it is no bug )

I am attaching three pictures:

The first one is obviously the correct one. Resizing to 1280x720 and AR set to "no aspect ratio correction".

http://members.chello.at/afmusic/AR/normal.jpg


This second one shows the very old ffdshow "bug" ... at least I would say that it is a bug. Resizing to 1280x720 again and this time setting AR to "Keep original aspect ratio". You see that the picture is squashed.

http://members.chello.at/afmusic/AR/falsch1.jpg


Well, the really strange one is the third however. This time I set resize to double of the original resolution and no matter if AR is set to "no aspect ratio correction" or to "Keep original aspect ratio" ( doesn´t change a thing ), the picture is somewhat zoomed in so that parts of the picture are missing !!

http://members.chello.at/afmusic/AR/falsch2.jpg

I am using ZoomPlayer 401 RC1, VMR9 windowless, Elecard 3611. The DVD is anamorphic PAL.

Hope you can help !

Thanks,
Alex

whats the problem?

In the first picture all is oki and looks oki?

The second picture is also oki, since the org. AR seems 1.25:1 so its prolly a anamorphic encoded film.
For these to work u need set the AR in zoomplayer or simple use method 1.
Thats cause ffdshow use the org. encoded AR.

The third picture is also oki since u change it on the fly, for the correct size simple start and stop zoomplayer again and u dont miss parts of the movie.

The only "bug" i see is that ffdshow has a hard time to figure out what AR to hand over to the vmr7/9 or overlay mixer. Since the "no ar correction" work for dvd and "keep org. AR" works for avi's well i dont see what need to be changed?

Hey Andy,

sorry but I have to disagree ! :)

In the first picture all is oki and looks oki?

Yep !:)

For these to work u need set the AR in zoomplayer or simple use method 1.

Zoom Player is set to "derived" meaning it will already change AR depending on the DVD. If DVD is anamorphic, Zoom will correct this. But somehow ffdshow squashes it again ???

The third picture is also oki since u change it on the fly, for the correct size simple start and stop zoomplayer again and u dont miss parts of the movie.

No, this does not work, Andy ! Between making those pictures, I always restarted the player so whatever I do, setting Resize to double resolution never results in correct image !

The only "bug" i see is that ffdshow has a hard time to figure out what AR to hand over to the vmr7/9 or overlay mixer. Since the "no ar correction" work for dvd and "keep org. AR" works for avi's well i dont see what need to be changed?

Well, sorry to be a pain but this manual approach is not my idea of a "working AR". Why change it manually ? If Zoomplayer can correctly adapt AR for different media why can´t ffdshow ? :rolleyes:

mhh ... :)

Thanks for your help !
Alex

Originally posted by bloodx
DVD shrink is probably your problem. I have no idea whats going on with it.
Some rips with it are fine. I tried Barbershop2 and it skipped every 10-15min. Then used DVD decrypter and it played perfect. I love dvd shrink because the way it rips out that FBI crap but unless I can figure something else out its history.

I also once had bad memory that was causing skips and bad tearing but I doubt thats your problem. You should run a memory test anyway.

DVD Shrink will try to compress your rip if you don't expressly tell it to back up to hard drive, and set the compression to none. Maybe you got a compressed version...

Originally posted by midiboy



No, this does not work, Andy ! Between making those pictures, I always restarted the player so whatever I do, setting Resize to double resolution never results in correct image !


Well, sorry to be a pain but this manual approach is not my idea of a "working AR". Why change it manually ? If Zoomplayer can correctly adapt AR for different media why can´t ffdshow ? :rolleyes:

mhh ... :)

Thanks for your help !
Alex

U sure u fully closed and restarted zoomplayer and not just hit stop/play? If u use vmr7/9 make sure AR correction is disabled for the render, go to the vmr7/9 properties page while zoomplayer plays and disable "maintain correct aspect ratio"

"If Zoomplayer can correctly adapt AR for different media why can´t ffdshow ?"
cause zoomplayer cant and dont resize... the decoder manage the AR and what to hand over to zoomplayer so u can only blame ffdshow vs the decoder.
As long as the decoder hand's correct AR to ffdshow, ffdshow will hand those to zoomplayer...
The only know problem is that the libavcodec used in ffdshow has problems to get the correct AR out of anamorphic xvid/3ivx encodes. This can simple be fixed by using the xvid/3ivx decoder not libavcodec.

Sorry but i still dont get the problem, with ffdshow set to "no AR correction" and zoomplayer set to "derivered" all works fine? Im missing something here?

So if i miss something gimme an example, what u expect ffdshow to do in wich setting and what is not working?

It seems like the Preset autoload conditions works as a OR, it would be really nice to make it work like a AND.
For example, I want to apply some settings to my 1280*720 files, but only to the avi/wmv ones, not to the ts ones.
And I don't want to apply those settings to all the avi/wmv files, just to the 1280*720 ones.
At the moment, this is impossible...

Andy, would that be difficult to implement ?

I notice using FFDSHOW there's a green underpush. How can this be corrected? thanks.

Hi Andy !

U sure u fully closed and restarted zoomplayer and not just hit stop/play?

Yep !

If u use vmr7/9 make sure AR correction is disabled for the render, go to the vmr7/9 properties page while zoomplayer plays and disable "maintain correct aspect ratio"

There is no such button ? All I get when going to the properties page while Zoomplayer is playing is this:

http://members.chello.at/afmusic/AR/renderer.JPG

Am I missing something ?

Sorry but i still dont get the problem, with ffdshow set to "no AR correction" and zoomplayer set to "derivered" all works fine? Im missing something here?

First of all, this only works like you say when resizing to 1280x720 and not when resizing to double resolution. When resizing to double resolution the AR buttons in ffdshow do not work or do not change anything so the picture is always incorrect and cut ( see third picture above )

Second, when watching anamorphic xvid for instance one has to change to "keep original aspect ratio" which I think is an unnecessary step. But of course it can be solved by not using ffdshow for MP4 files as you said ...

So while I can sort of live with the second solution by not using ffdshow for decoding MP4 I think that resizing to double res. should work like resizing to 1280x720 or am I missing something ??

;)

Thanks,
Alex

woops the extra render properties pages came from my sdk installation, aka proppage.dll registration.

"When resizing to double resolution the AR buttons in ffdshow do not work or do not change anything so the picture is always incorrect and cut ( see third picture above )"

sorry but seems this is a specific problem with your system/setup since no1 else is reporting those problems? (if im wrong some1 else add to this pls)

If u resize to 2x org. resolution u dont change the AR so i never had problem's with those settings. Im also using zoomplayer + ffdshow for all my dvd/xvid/divx/mp4 and other crap. I never had AR problems using 2x resize... no crop no wrong AR... If this would be the case be sure lots of more would complain.

Pls check your AR settings in zoomplayer, also try build a manual graph using graphedit and see if the same happens. I realy never heared about resize and croped images this never happend to me.
For the xvid/mp4 AR this is something we will prolly look in the future, but atm im working on other parts and i dont think its such an easy fix like the luma offset/gain bug. Im still not sure if its a libavcodec problem or interaction between libav and ffdshow...

So again if some1 else have AR problems using the multiply resize and get a croped image pls reply.

PS: as u noticed lycos just "unplugged" me today.. i will look for a more stable solution soon for the next release.

It seems like AndyIEG's website (http://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/ffdshow/) is down. I justed wanted to check for the latest version/to confirm I have it (July 9, 2004).

Could anybody confirm that I have the latest one?
Are there are any mirrors around?

Thanks!
_______
Axel

Originally posted by tan77646
I notice using FFDSHOW there's a green underpush. How can this be corrected? thanks.

what ffdshow version u using?

Ok...........I decided to buy the WinDVD codec pak and uninstalled the Fshow and re installed. Put Win DVD decoders in place of Sonic. Now I cant figure out what the heck is going on. I use the Denoise first and then resize to just 720x480 just to test and when I play a movie The screen just freezes on the video side after a few seconds, but the audio is still playing. My CPU usage is only at 40%. I have tried different movies over and over again with the same result. Even If I leave resize unchecked , I still get the freeze, with Audio still playing.

Patriot
Had the same problem myself. In my case I had the audio renderer on ZP set to default direct sound when it should have been default wave out. I'm not sure why this affected the video and not the audio.
Steve

This is a known problem with the WinDVD decoders and has been an issue for over a year now. Do a search on WinDVD DMO filter for more info.

Any dropped frame and the WinDVD decoders freeze unless you also have a DMO filter intalled.

Vern

Hey Andy,

ok, I found the problem. It is the Elecard decoder build 3611 I had installed. Maybe it has problems with Servicepack 2 SR2 of Windows XP which I have installed or maybe this error also exists with SR1, I don´t know. In any way, the picture is correct if I use the WinDVD decoder.

Strange, huh ?

I never suspected the decoder because I have used this same version for months now without any problem. I recently did a new Windows installation with SR2 included and I have had this problem since. The problem not only exists with VMR it also happens with Overlay ... very strange.

Anyway, sorry to have bothered you with this ! But it would still be cool if the AR problem with anamorphic MP4 files would be solved one day !

Thanks,
Alex

Andy, just tell me if you don't like my requests :D

My test with ffdshow sharpness algorithm :

--> Test 1 : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/mix.bmp ( Toy Story PAL DVD)
--> Test 2 : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/nicolas.phil/temp/mix2.jpg ( Terminator 3 PAL DVD)

Normal : no filter
Asharp : HQ enable and (1.18 ; 3.55 ; 0 ) for the 3 values
Spline : resize 1280*720 , luma sharpen = 1.3
Lanczos : resize 1280*720 , luma sharpen = 1.3

FYI the latest build 20040718
http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ffdshow-20040718.exe

Originally posted by BangoO
Andy, just tell me if you don't like my requests :D

pls send suggestions/bugs per PM since i cant keep track whats posted in the normal thread.

thx

Originally posted by bbq@KL
FYI the latest build 20040718
http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ffdshow-20040718.exe

Thanks!

Are there still two trees:
1. the initial, "athos.leffe.dnsalias" one and
2. the "optimized for P4" one which Andy handles?
____
Axel

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Patriots
I was hoping someone could help me out with this. Over the past couple of days I added more HD space and installed the Firefly remote software which comes with the remote. Today after getting some movies downloaded and playing girder I had everything where I thought I wanted it. For some reason now when watching a movied through my HTPC onto 65 Hitachi CRT, I get like a choppy stuttering effect periodically. I reduced My F Show settings and still get the stuttering , chopiness. Even with CPU at only 50% I get it. I didn't have this problem prior to today. After looking at it it appears that I'm getting the same issue through Dscaler at only 40%, so I think that it isn't Zoomplayer or the Fshow causing it. I completely uninstalled zoomplayer and the F show and re installed and still the same issues. Anybody have a clue on what could be causing this all of the sudden. My video card is a 9600 non pro connected to the TV with the dongle. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have noticed some stuttering too using one of the latest build of ffdshow with SSE2 optimization. I even have heavy stuttering while in the menu of Finding Nemo. I have switched back and forth with the 20040709 (from memory) and the latest SSE2 version; the stuttering is only there with the SSE2 version. I am running a P4 prescott 3.0Ghz so I am not short of power. I am not pushing ffdshow to its limit; I only denoize3d and resize to 1440x960 with lanczos3.
I have watched a whole movie friday night with the SSE2 version and there was some stuttering also; but it was occasional. Sometimes is was 15 minutes appart and some other time, I got stuttering every couple minutes. Audio was fine, only video was affected.

Is anybody else noticed the same thing?

Andy, is there a non-sse2 version of ffdshow that uses your updated denoise3d improvements? I am currently running the June 29 version of ffdshow.

I've downloaded the latest version, and now the playback has gone from stuttering to complete chopiness. I mean my CPU usage keeps going down with each version, but my playback gets worse. Does anyone know where I can find the 061704 build, as Ithink that is where I had my sweetspot.

I fix a color problem with ffdshow resize to HDTV resulotion (>= 1280x720) and ATI drivers. If you resize a normal DVD to HDTV the ATI driver think it is a pure HDTV signal and switch the overlay to the HDTV color matrix. You can notice a wrong green.
The AviSynth plugin correct the SDTV color space (ITU-R BT.601) to the HDTV color space (ITU-R BT.709) in real time. The reverse filter is from Tom Barry. Thanks for his help.

Carsten

Carsten2004,
Could you please explain how to do the HDTV colourspace conversion? I have an ATI card and I have the green problem but I don't know how to use Avisynth with FFDShow and DVDs.
Thx.

My setup:

WinDVD6 filter in software mode
AviSynth 2.54
Zoomplayer

Copy the BT601ToBT709.dll to your AviSynth directory.
Example: C:\Programme\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\
Now write BT601ToBT709() in the AviSynth screen in ffdshow (see the picture).
That’s all.

Carsten

Thx.
Will try it when I get home.

Would be nice to have some screen captures to compare ;)

Ok, I've got the Avisynth colourspace filter working and it changes the colour all right.

But I CANNOT see a colour difference between no resize and resize to 1440x1152. (With the avisynth filter turned off.)

Or resize to 720x576 and resize to 1440x1152. No change here either.

I'm watching PAL on a Radeon 9000 pro.

If the difference is the same amount as with/without the Avisynth filter then I should see it EASY. I can spot that a mile away.

Yes, I am pressing stop and play between fiddling.

Am I missing something? The colour difference is just not there!

Originally posted by bbq@KL
FYI the latest build 20040718
http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ffdshow-20040718.exe

Thank you, I look forward to trying it! I have found I can get higher resizes with your ver. compared to Andy's. I had been getting 1440x960 and even got 1920x1080 whereas with Andy's I can't go beyond 1152x768. I am running a 2800+ AMD cpu in a Abit NF7-S v2 motherboard with a ATI 9800 Pro.
Last week I uninstalled yours and tried Andy's latest non-SSE and still could not resize any higher so I went back to yours and found I could not resize as high as before but I can get 1280x720 which matches my native PJ rez. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling and also tried installing yours over top of Andy's.

I had posted my result with your ffdshow-20040629.exe and Andy had said there is nothing between your ver and his that would account for my differing results. I also find that OSD has to be on or it won't run at that resize? I have the OSD with the smallest font display and it isn't bothersome but I wonder if what I'm seeing is just one of those things that is particular to me only or not...

Whaddya think? Am I nuts?!?! ;)

Originally posted by jpj6st
I've noticed that you can make fine adjustments with the left and right arrow keys rather than trying to pull the sliders with your mouse. Does that fix the problem?

john

Tried using the arrow keys on the keyboard, had no effect on the sliders. It's probably something simple but I am stumped.

Hi Guys,

I'm new to FFDshow and HCPC's in general. I should stress I have read through this thread and cannot find an answer to my question. If I missed it, I'll apologise now.

My question is, I'm based in the UK. I have an even split of both region 1 and 2 discs. At the moment, I have the registry entries from earlier in the thread on my desktop, and I simply click the Pal or NTSC one depending on the film I'm going to watch.

What I would like to do, is also have the resize option change automatically from 2 x Pal resolution or 2 x NTSC resolution at the same time. Is there a registry entry than can be added that changes the resize reolution?

Thanks in advance

Originally posted by Wireless
Tried using the arrow keys on the keyboard, had no effect on the sliders. It's probably something simple but I am stumped.

click on the actual slider first, then once its been "selected", use the arrow keys. Otherwise the arrows will not know where theyre being used.

Originally posted by UrbanTiger
What I would like to do, is also have the resize option change automatically from 2 x Pal resolution or 2 x NTSC resolution at the same time. Is there a registry entry than can be added that changes the resize reolution?
In ffdshow, you have to go in the Image settings and click on New.
Let's call this new profile NTSC.
Then, check the Automatic preset loading checkbox and click on Preset autoload conditions.
There, check the on movie dimensions match checkbox and write 720 <= width <= 720, and 480 <= height <= 480.
Then, you can set up your resize in this new profile, and it will be automatically loaded for NTSC DVDs.
You can do the same for the PAL DVDs, writing 720 <= width <= 720, and 576 <= height <= 576.

PS: you can choose profiles in the dropdown menu on top of ffdshow.
PS2: you can also launch automatically a batch file that sets the registry key for PAL or NTSC DVDs if you use AnyDVD as region free program.

@Mark_A_W

You only have this problem if you use the overlay mode and a ATI driver like Catalyst 4.5 . Some older drivers don’t have this problem. But then you can’t watch HDTV with the right colors. I have checked your double PAL resolution and the color is not correct. I’m using a RADEON 9500.

Carsten

Originally posted by BangoO

PS2: you can also launch automatically a batch file that sets the registry key for PAL or NTSC DVDs if you use AnyDVD as region free program.

Thanks for the help so far. I have to admit my knowledge on PC's is limited. I do used AnyDVD to make the PC region free. Can you help me with a batch file, as I've no idea what it is.

Thanks again

Originally posted by bedo
Thank you, I look forward to trying it! I have found I can get higher resizes with your ver. compared to Andy's. I had been getting 1440x960 and even got 1920x1080 whereas with Andy's I can't go beyond 1152x768. I am running a 2800+ AMD cpu in a Abit NF7-S v2 motherboard with a ATI 9800 Pro.
Last week I uninstalled yours and tried Andy's latest non-SSE and still could not resize any higher so I went back to yours and found I could not resize as high as before but I can get 1280x720 which matches my native PJ rez. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling and also tried installing yours over top of Andy's.

I had posted my result with your ffdshow-20040629.exe and Andy had said there is nothing between your ver and his that would account for my differing results. I also find that OSD has to be on or it won't run at that resize? I have the OSD with the smallest font display and it isn't bothersome but I wonder if what I'm seeing is just one of those things that is particular to me only or not...

Whaddya think? Am I nuts?!?! ;)

I'm confused by this.
What do you mean by different versions?
Can anyone just change the program post it and call it a new release?
Which version should I run if I want the latest stable release (non beta)?
If that question is unanswerable then can someone tell me which is considered the best version for MOST users to run and where should I download?

Steve

UrbanTiger, take this zip file and unzip it, you will have 2 .bat files (the batch files I told you about).
Edit them with notepad, and make them call your .reg files.

Then, open AnyDVD, go to External (I think it's the name, I have the french version:)) and check the checkbox that allows to run programs.
Then, for 60Hz (NTSC), tell it to run NTSC.bat.
Do the same for 50Hz (PAL) to run PAL.bat, and you registry files will be applied automatically when you insert a PAL or NTSC DVDs.

Originally posted by Energeezer
I'm confused by this.
What do you mean by different versions?

Steve

"Can anyone just change the program post it and call it a new release?"

:) yes u can thx to opensource

"Which version should I run if I want the latest stable release (non beta)?"

since there are no 100% stable versions atm (even windows is not 100% stable) u can claim all compiles as "beta", there wont be a "release" version cause of the nature of the project.

U can grab latest "dev" versions here: http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/

Im working on some sse2 optimisations for P4/AMD64 and those files will me marked as "....._SSE2.exe".

PS: i just mailed Athos and he made it possible that i also get access to his download location, the next sse2 compile will than also avaible there

btw some1 know what assemblers output win64 object files else than masm?

Thanks for the help so far, I'm am still a little vague (sorry)

I can edit the .bat files with Notepad. Are you saying that I simply type the location in the registry where FFDshow stores its resolution?

Does that also mean that I can incorporate the manual process I'm using of clicking a registry entry on nmy desktop for NTSC and Pal. I have opened the registry file with Notepad, and what I'm clicking for NTSC has the following

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Sonic\CineMaster DS DVD\2.5\VideoDecoder]
"AllowAllRenderers"=dword:00000001
"HardCodeForPAL"=dword:00000000

My questions are,
1) Can I simply copy and paste this into the bat so FFDshow changes automatically for Pal and NTSC
2) Do you have the location in the registry of the FFDshow resolution parameters, as I have searched the registry and can't find them.

Thanks again for the help

Chris

Originally posted by BangoO
UrbanTiger, take this zip file and unzip it, you will have 2 .bat files (the batch files I told you about).
Edit them with notepad, and make them call your .reg files.

Then, open AnyDVD, go to External (I think it's the name, I have the french version:)) and check the checkbox that allows to run programs.
Then, for 60Hz (NTSC), tell it to run NTSC.bat.
Do the same for 50Hz (PAL) to run PAL.bat, and you registry files will be applied automatically when you insert a PAL or NTSC DVDs.

I'm progressing slowly with this.

I now have 4 .reg files, 2 for NTSC and 2 for Pal

The first NTSC reg is called 'ntscenable.reg' and is the file I have been manually executing to allow Theatertek to play NTSC discs.
The new file is called 'ntscres.reg', which changes the vertical resolution to 960. This is tested and works.

I have put these into a folder in windows called c:\reg

The last bit I'm stuck in is putting this into a batch file to run both the NTSC reg files from this directory?

Can you kindly help with this last part. Many thanks
Chris

cinema fan, if you at the NTSC.bat file, it just contains this:

c:\windows\regedit.exe /s "C:\Documents and Settings\BangoO\Desktop\NTSC.reg"

It means it calls regedit to open your reg file.
For you, it would be this:

c:\windows\regedit.exe /s "c:\reg\ntscenable.reg"


Now... I don't understand what is this second reg file which is supposed to set the vertical resolution to 960 ?

Ok my turn now to expose my problems :)

In DVD or Media mode (meaning playing anything in ZP) using VMR9, I have to set the gamma at 1.23 in YUY2, and to 0 in YV12 to get the same image.
I don't have this issue using Overlay... any ideas ?

Carsten

I'm using VMR7, so that's the difference. Still I'm playing around with Overlay, and I don't see it, but I'll keep looking.

Still, I like it better witht he avisynth file running, green looks green.

I'll test a few more disc's, but it's all a bit subjective...

BangoO, I really appreciate your help in this. I actually figured it all out, it was simpler than I thought, I was really over complicating things.

I realised the first part of the text was to stop the confirmation boxes, the second to execute the reg file. To answer you question, although the horizontal resolution is always the same for NTSC and PAL (720 x 2 = 1440), the double resolution figure on vertical is 960 for NTSC and 1152 for Pal. Now the batch makes this change in resize automatically.

The real beauty is that once I put it into AnyDVD, I don't have to make any manual changes at all (I think :)), when using DVD's from different regions

Superb.

Great forum and thanks again for all the help

Chris




Originally posted by BangoO
cinema fan, if you at the NTSC.bat file, it just contains this:

c:\windows\regedit.exe /s "C:\Documents and Settings\BangoO\Desktop\NTSC.reg"

It means it calls regedit to open your reg file.
For you, it would be this:

c:\windows\regedit.exe /s "c:\reg\ntscenable.reg"


Now... I don't understand what is this second reg file which is supposed to set the vertical resolution to 960 ?

Originally posted by bedo
Thank you, I look forward to trying it! I have found I can get higher resizes with your ver. compared to Andy's. I had been getting 1440x960 and even got 1920x1080 whereas with Andy's I can't go beyond 1152x768. I am running a 2800+ AMD cpu in a Abit NF7-S v2 motherboard with a ATI 9800 Pro.

Well, installed the latest Athos and I find I can run denoise3D at 1280x720 which is a big jump for me. I also would like to thank Carsten2004
for your info on the HDTV colourspace conversion. I have installed AviSynth and BT601ToBT709 and it runs well with ffdshow, I'll look forward to giving it a test tonight on the pj.

Thanks Guys!!!

I just downloaded and installed the latest verisons of Zoomplay and ffdshow. Im curious how I get zoomplayer to reconize ffdshow and use it. Under the setup and dvd menu it only shows the intervideo which is there i suppose because i have windvd recorder installed..

Can anyone help a newb...

THanks

Originally posted by SurferMatti
I just downloaded and installed the latest verisons of Zoomplay and ffdshow. Im curious how I get zoomplayer to reconize ffdshow and use it. Under the setup and dvd menu it only shows the intervideo which is there i suppose because i have windvd recorder installed..

Can anyone help a newb...

THanks

Start at the beginning, there is a "how to" get it going.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bedo
Start at the beginning, there is a "how to" get it going.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wherer should I start. As far as I have read it is just older verions of the programs and alot of edits saying there are newer versions and a lot of stuff doesnt apply...

thanks

With Zoom Player, I think it's the Advanced Settings. You'll need to load ffdshow as an external program (bottom middle, to right of audio and video codecs).

Can I get a little help here?

My picture looks quite grainy...

Here are my settings:

Blur:
Gradual denoise -- 30
denoise3d -- .5, .5, 5

Sharpen: (Turning this off looks a bit blury, but helps the grain)
unsharp mask -- 20

Resize to 1280x720 w/ Lanczos

Originally posted by KyPeN
Can I get a little help here?

My picture looks quite grainy...

Here are my settings:

Blur:
Gradual denoise -- 30
denoise3d -- .5, .5, 5

Sharpen: (Turning this off looks a bit blury, but helps the grain)
unsharp mask -- 20

Resize to 1280x720 w/ Lanczos

To start change it to...

Blur:
Gradual denoise -- OFF
denoise3d -- .5, .5, 5

Sharpen: unsharp mask -- OFF

Resize to 1440x960 w/ Lanczos 3

On a recent ssE build of ffdshow.

Why should I change to 1440x960? I'm not sure if my system can handle that!

2.4ghz 533 fsb
512meg PC2100
Ti4200

Originally posted by BangoO
Ok my turn now to expose my problems :)

In DVD or Media mode (meaning playing anything in ZP) using VMR9, I have to set the gamma at 1.23 in YUY2, and to 0 in YV12 to get the same image.
I don't have this issue using Overlay... any ideas ?
Bump :)

Originally posted by KyPeN
Why should I change to 1440x960? I'm not sure if my system can handle that!

2.4ghz 533 fsb
512meg PC2100
Ti4200

On my 2,5Ghz, 512RAM and Radeon9000Pro this works ok:

ffdshow-20040709_SSE2
Codec: RAW only (all supported)
Dscaler sharpen SSE2: 50
Gradual denoise: 22
Resize Lanczos4 (Luma sharpen 1,20) 1440x960
Output: YUV12

Got CPU usage ~85

surfermatti, go here (http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1)

RolfHult and others, since I see people using the ffdshow-20040709-SSE2, I'll repost something I post a couple page back wich didn't received much attention.

I have noticed some stuttering using ffdshow_20040709_SSE2. I even have heavy stuttering while in the menu of Finding Nemo. The anemona moves and every now and then, the picture freeze a fraction of a second. I have switched back and forth with the non-SSE2 20040629 ffdshow (from memory) and the 20040709 SSE2 version; the stuttering is only there with the SSE2 version. I am running a P4 prescott 3.0Ghz so I am not short of power, cpu never goes past 50%. I am not pushing ffdshow to its limit; I only denoize3d and resize to 1440x960 with lanczos3.
I have watched a whole movie friday night with the SSE2 version and there was some stuttering also; but it was occasional. Sometimes is was 15 minutes appart and some other time, I got stuttering every couple minutes. Audio was fine, only video was affected. I have completely reinstalled my HTPC from scratch and turn off most of the useless Windows services to get the lowest load. After boot up, windows takes only 87MB of memory, so I am pretty clean. I got the same behavior with the 20040709-SSE2.

Is anybody else noticed the same thing?

Originally posted by fp007
RolfHult and others, since I see people using the ffdshow-20040709-SSE2, I'll repost something I post a couple page back wich didn't received much attention.

I have noticed some stuttering using ffdshow_20040709_SSE2. I even have heavy stuttering while in the menu of Finding Nemo. The anemona moves and every now and then, the picture freeze a fraction of a second. I have switched back and forth with the non-SSE2 20040629 ffdshow (from memory) and the 20040709 SSE2 version; the stuttering is only there with the SSE2 version. I am running a P4 prescott 3.0Ghz so I am not short of power, cpu never goes past 50%. I am not pushing ffdshow to its limit; I only denoize3d and resize to 1440x960 with lanczos3.
I have watched a whole movie friday night with the SSE2 version and there was some stuttering also; but it was occasional. Sometimes is was 15 minutes appart and some other time, I got stuttering every couple minutes. Audio was fine, only video was affected. I have completely reinstalled my HTPC from scratch and turn off most of the useless Windows services to get the lowest load. After boot up, windows takes only 87MB of memory, so I am pretty clean. I got the same behavior with the 20040709-SSE2.

Is anybody else noticed the same thing?

Do you have HT enabled or disabled? If it's enabled then your 50% is really 100% and the stuttering is to be expected.

-Pat

Pat, HT is enable. But when I use the 20040629 verison, which is non SSE2 I presume (correct me here), I don't have stuttering; HT is enabled too. Moreover, the SSE2 optimization are supposed to increase the performance, not the reverse. also, I got stuttering even if I only resize to 1440x960; even when I only denoize (no resize) I got stuttering.
When I saw RolfHult using the SSE2 version on a 2.5Ghz, with no problem I assume, why would I be short on horsepower with a 3.0 Ghz? I run basically the same setting as he reported a couple post above.

Originally posted by fp007
Pat, HT is enable. But when I use the 20040629 verison, which is non SSE2 I presume (correct me here), I don't have stuttering; HT is enabled too. Moreover, the SSE2 optimization are supposed to increase the performance, not the reverse. also, I got stuttering even if I only resize to 1440x960; even when I only denoize (no resize) I got stuttering.
When I saw RolfHult using the SSE2 version on a 2.5Ghz, with no problem I assume, why would I be short on horsepower with a 3.0 Ghz? I run basically the same setting as he reported a couple post above.

Sorry, I wasn't actually offering the solution but telling you where to look. If you look at the task manager you should be able to see the load on each of your virtual CPU's. It's the load on that that you want to watch. As to why Denoise3D is taking up so many CPU cycles on your system, I can't answer that :( I'm running one of the SSE2 version on a P42.8 that's OC'd to 3.2 and it has no problem with denoise3d followed by Lanczos4 1.2 luma sharpen.

-Pat

Sorry probably would have helped if I mentioned that I resize to both 1280x720 and 1440x960. Neither pushes me over 80% CPU utilization. The menus with the higher frame rate certainly drive my rate up but 1440x960 is still managable.

@fp007 what u want us to say? My test always showed no stuttering and the SSE2 version was faster than the MMX2 and both are a lot faster than the org. C++

Seems its always that 1 out of 20 have problems with stuttering of some kind and i mainly have no clue why.. sorry.
But im trying to rewrite some denoise3d code atm since i want to try some HT and parallel thread stuff, maybe this will help on P4.

Wait a minute... you're seeing this with the menus and other CGI stuff? I always see it when I try to resize that sort of thing. The opening of Big Fish (where the tree blossoms, and then the fish in the river) bring my PC to a screeching halt when I resize them. How are non-animated films?

I've been trying to get the the levels settings right using Matrix Reloaded, Chapter 3 "Upgrades" - where Neo walks down and looks at the ear piece. You should be able to see his jacket and the buttons on it.

I had tried just boosting Gamma and Luminance to 6-10 and 150-200, respectively, in the picture properties. But this boosts the whole picture and it gets really light.

I read on page 98 or so of this thread about YUY2 and YV12 color spaces, but I don't see a difference between the two (resizex2 + Lanczos 3, then Output color space only), stopping and replaying to check the difference. The picture is really dark, with dark/shadow detail gone. It's not bad on normal movies (I don't even notice), but with SF movies like this with lots of dark scenes, I want to try and get everything right. Should I be changing input/output levels instead on the Levels page? I don't want to wash the whites out, just boost detail in darks/shadows without losing the level of blacks.

My system:
P4 2.8GHz
512RAM
nVidia GeForce 5200 Ultra (128 RAM)
Zoom Player + ffdshow - Intervideo video codec

EDIT:
Using Powerstrip to output 1280x720 through VGA to a Samsung HLN4365W DLP TV.



Any help would be greatly appreciated. At this point, I'm considering getting an up-converting DVD player and hooking it up through DVI...

cyberbri,

Avoid ffdshow gamma adjustments if you can since they changes the black reference and white reference too as I remember. If you use Powerstrip then try the gamma adjustments there - they work fine.

Charlie

Yeah, the ffdshow gamma control is seriously broken. I requested that the developers/improvers of ffdshow take a look at it a few weeks ago when they fixed the luma offset bug, but I havent heard anything.

Vern

There are two gamma knobs in ffdshow. One in picture properties and one in levels. The one in levels works. (much better)

Dave

Well, I told it to resize to 1440x960 (then get downconverted by my vid card to 1280x720) and it looks good. Damn good. BUT, there is a black border on the left and right sides and the picture has a "tall" look.

I can correct this by telling it to always use 1.77:1 aspect ratio, but then there is a black border around the whole picture!

I don't understand this 1440x960 ratio...its not 16:9?
16*90 = 1440
9*90 = 810

Shouldn't the ratio be 1440x810?

Madpoet, like I said, I have heavy stuttering in the Finding Nemo menu only with SSE2 version. However, I did manage to watch a whole movie (Paycheck) with the SSE2 and I get stuttering from time to time; sometimes 2-3 time in 15 minutes, sometimes 2-3 time in 5 minutes.
What's puzzeling me is that although I tried the exact same ffdshow settings in both the 20040629 and 20040709-SSE2 version, only the later shows stuttering. Now, since the 20040609 (I still assume it's non SSE2 since nobody corrected me on this) works perfectly with those setting and the SSE2 version is not, I rule out the cpu underpower.
I don't know what takes the most cpu, Blur & NR or Resize; when I turn off either Blurn & NR or Resize (turning both off would disable ffdshow), I still get stuttering.
I don't know what I want you to say, but to me it is clearly not a cpu thing. I would just like to know if there is some condition that made this problem occurs.
If all of you don't know what I am talking about or have no clue, I guess I'll stick with the version that works. I just hate to be the 1 in 20 that doesn't work, especially when there is no apparent reason. I'll stop bothering you now. Thanks

Note: I am a programmer for a living and a computer freak, not the average joe, so these kind of thing drives me crazy.

KyPeN, I think I had the same problem. Based on recommanded settings, I was using the "Keep original aspect ratio". Turns out the "No aspect ratio correction" instead of "Keep original aspect ratio" in the Aspect Ration section of the Resize & Aspect tab off ffdshow did the trick.
However, I have no clue why. to me "original aspect ratio" and "no aspect ration correction" should do the same thing.

FP, weird... I admit I have only used the SSE2 version lately. I'll have to give the other a try on animated material. Has anyone else seen this?

Originally posted by fp007

.....

Note: I am a programmer for a living and a computer freak, not the average joe, so these kind of thing drives me crazy. [/B]

what render, mpeg2 decoder u are using?

Originally posted by AndyIEG
what render, mpeg2 decoder u are using?

I am using WMR9 and I tried both Sonic CineMaster and WinDVD decoder.

In my case I am using Sonic and Overlay (I can't get VMR9 working right for some reason!)

-MP

Originally posted by madpoet
In my case I am using Sonic and Overlay (I can't get VMR9 working right for some reason!)

-MP


I'll try Overlay tonight with both version to see if it make a difference.

Originally posted by BangoO
Ok my turn now to expose my problems :)

In DVD or Media mode (meaning playing anything in ZP) using VMR9, I have to set the gamma at 1.23 in YUY2, and to 0 in YV12 to get the same image.
I don't have this issue using Overlay... any ideas ?
Bump again :)

There are two gamma knobs in ffdshow. One in picture properties and one in levels. The one in levels works. (much better)

The Levels Gamma causes havoc to a ramp test pattern - clipping black below black and white above white. The Pictures Prop one doesn't. (On my system.)

But I'd use the Powerstrip one.

The Levels Gamma causes havoc to a ramp test pattern - clipping black below black and white above white

I wasn't aware of that. I'll need to look again. Perhaps I'd never notice it outside of DVE however as I tend to calibrate to maximize brightness and contrast. I’ve been looking a lot for BTB and WTW encoded on ‘normal’ DVD’s recently (with a mis-calibrated display chain) but I’m still not finding any.

The Pict Prop one does change B/W levels (on my system) and using PS changes everything including the desktop. Of the three, (PS,PP,Levels) I've found the one in levels to be the lessor evil for me. YMMV.

Dave

Help, for some strange reason I can`t get the abstract dmo filter to connect ffdshow. I`ve added the AllowAllRenderersto just aout every tab in the registery and made sure that ffdshow was set to Raw video and and that all formats were supported.

Originally posted by KyPeN
I don't understand this 1440x960 ratio...its not 16:9?
16*90 = 1440
9*90 = 810

Shouldn't the ratio be 1440x810?
NTSC DVD is 720x480, to double, get 1440x960.
PAL DVD is 720x576, to double, get 1440x1152.

Originally posted by mikeyari
Help, for some strange reason I can`t get the abstract dmo filter to connect ffdshow. I`ve added the AllowAllRenderersto just aout every tab in the registery and made sure that ffdshow was set to Raw video and and that all formats were supported.

Got it! I keep forgetting that you have to go to configurations tab first to set it to Raw video!!!! I kept hitting the raw video and then it takes to the screen that already has all supported checked! It took me six hours to figure this crap out! ffdhow guys should set the automactically.

I have some little homework for you videophiles, can u compare denoise3d HQ vs the normal nen HQ setting pls? Just for quality not speed, is the normal result acceptable to use for u too?
Since i just played around with some code and after 4 hours it made "ding" and i found a other way to do the math, but this will only work for the non HQ code. So assuming that a optimized normal version will be 80% faster than the HQ SSE2/MMX2 version, would u use it?

thx

Dave,

Please, don't lose the faith and quit looking for that BTB and WTW information for us as I'm sure that it will be visually exciting for all of us when you find it.:D

Charlie

The Levels Gamma causes havoc to a ramp test pattern - clipping black below black and white above white

I revisited this and found that if the “Full Range” option is checked in the “Levels” property options, then BTB and WTW IS passed if present and the levels gamma control seems to operate reasonably for me. If “Full Range” is not checked, it appears only 16>Y<235 is passed. I have been setting both Input and Output sliders at Y16 and Y235 and toggling the levels control on/off while observing clips in order to strip any BTB and WTW encoded on the DVD if/when present. (along with a severely mis-calibrated display in order to allow for it if it is there) I have only been able to observe/perceive/measure it on (D)VE however. It seems the “Full Range” button accomplishes the same task. If one can find a non-test DVD that has any observable/measurable difference if the “Full Range” button is checked or not, it seems that’s good evidence of BTB and WTW encoded on a DVD.

Please, don't lose the faith and quit looking for that BTB and WTW information for us as I'm sure that it will be visually exciting for all of us when you find it.

Ahh, what's faith? I’m the skeptic. I sure can’t prove that it doesn’t exist, but I have looked for it. A lot. Maybe an enlightened believer can find it and post screen caps using the ‘full range’ limit button and shut me up. :)

Dave

Originally posted by fp007
I'll try Overlay tonight with both version to see if it make a difference.

To followup on my own iner-thread (this thread really spread everywhere), I tried last evening the SSE2 version with overlay vs WMR9. Now I can report that there is no stuttering in overlay mode. Any theories for this problem? The question remains; is this normal considering the non SSE2 version works perfectly with both WMR9 and overlay.

I tried for an hour the compare the image quality from ffdshow 20040629 with VMR9 and ffdshow 20040709-SSE2 with overlay. This in not an easy task since I can't have both version of ffdshow installed a the same time. I wasn't able to get to a clear conclusion.
So I will once again requires some help here. In theory what would yield the best picture quality: 20040629+WMR9 or 20040709+overlay? What would be the benefits/drawbacks of both configuration?

Thanks

fp007, Is there a chance you're actuallly seeing tearing rather than stuttering? VMR9 has a pretty notorious history for tearing. If it's really stuttering, what kind of video card are you using? VMR9 does use more CPU so if overlay is really close it could push it over the edge but I wouldn't expect it to be as night-and-day as you're seeing.

-Pat

pcgeek, I running a Radeon 9600XT. As for tearing vs stuttering, I don't really know the difference. The only way I can describe it is the picture freezing for abot half a second and resuming as if there wasn't any freeze. The sound is not affected.
As for cpu usage, like I said, the 20040629 works perfectly with WMR9. Also, I tried last evening to add some more processing from ffdshow to see what's left in the cpu. So I both gradual denoize and denoized3d, use xharpen and add some noise with new noise algorithm, all before I resize to 1440x960 using lanczos4. All this work perfectly with the 20040629 + WMR9. So in my mind, it pretty much rules out the cpu underpower.

Originally posted by KyPeN
Why should I change to 1440x960? I'm not sure if my system can handle that!

2.4ghz 533 fsb
512meg PC2100
Ti4200

You'll only know by trying, but with your CPU drop out all other processing except resize to start with. 1440 x 960 is double your DVD res.

Originally posted by fp007
pcgeek, I running a Radeon 9600XT. As for tearing vs stuttering, I don't really know the difference. The only way I can describe it is the picture freezing for abot half a second and resuming as if there wasn't any freeze. The sound is not affected.
As for cpu usage, like I said, the 20040629 works perfectly with WMR9. Also, I tried last evening to add some more processing from ffdshow to see what's left in the cpu. So I both gradual denoize and denoized3d, use xharpen and add some noise with new noise algorithm, all before I resize to 1440x960 using lanczos4. All this work perfectly with the 20040629 + WMR9. So in my mind, it pretty much rules out the cpu underpower.

Try adding reclock and as well making sure your display refresh rate is a mutliple of your material's frame rate. In NTSC land it should be 60Hz.

Or 48 or 72 hz for film based dvd's. 60hz is just WRONG for film based NTSC dvds.

ahhh love PAL, on simple refresh for all :)

Using the THX shadow screen on the Monsters Inc DVD, I played around with my settings and finally figured out that I need to put my ffdshow output black level to 15 to get it correct. Doing just this fixed my Matrix Reloaded Ch 3 problem, and my other dark test scene, Harry Potter COSCh 26-27 (face of Aragog) also looked as close to perfect as I can imagine. Trying to mess with gamma and luminance, inside ffdshow and in my nVidia card settings and in Powerstrip all messed up the whole black/white spectrum. Doing it on my nVideo one messed up the whole chart, as moving 0 Input to 15 output messed with the spline curve and made the THX shadow screen greys look really funny.

I'm glad I was able to find an easy fix, even though finding the fix wasn't easy (took about 2 1/2 hours tonight of fiddling around).

So for my ffdshow settings I have
Sharpen - xsharpen Str 20 Threshold 80
Resize - 1280x720 (may try 2x later on, if it doesn't give me too many picture freezes)
Resize settings - Bicubic default, Luma at 30
Levels - Full Range, Luminance only, Black output at +15
Output to YV12

Zoom Player Pro with Intervideo WinDVD Video Codec, using nVIdia Video Overlay Mixer for video rendering

Question:
Should I be putting in Deinterlacing? Does that take a lot of CPU? If I should use it, should it be before or after resize?
I'm using a P4 2.8GHz 512 RAM, nVidia 5200 Ultra card, out VGA to a Samsung HLN DLP. My main concern now is getting the settings low enough so I don't have the screen/picture freezing every 10-20 minutes, as it has been doing in the past. At least now I seem to be able to view the menus correctly - don't know what I changed to fix this, though.


For those of you without DVE/Avia, some DVDs have THX setups, as you probably know. I had heard this before, but found out tonight first-hand, that these setups are tailored for the specific movie, at least some of the screens. I had the Fight Club DVD in my HTPC, and the Monsters Inc in my DVD to switch back and forth. The first screen for blooming, with 8 white squares of different brightnesses - I thought something was wrong with the PC's white/brightness, because the whole rectangle was one color for the Fight Club DVD, where the Monsters Inc through the DVD player had all different shades. The Monsters Inc DVD also has a great THX shadow screen (second test) for testing brightness/ black level output. This is what I used tonight.

(referring to above post)
Since I need to change my output black level to 15-16, does that mean I should be turning my white output level from 255 down to 235?

Originally posted by cyberbri

So for my ffdshow settings I have
Sharpen - xsharpen Str 20 Threshold 80
Resize - 1280x720 (may try 2x later on, if it doesn't give me too many picture freezes)
Resize settings - Bicubic default, Luma at 30
Levels - Full Range, Luminance only, Black output at +15
Output to YV12


Why all the sharpening? You don't need any if your display is any good.

I like to have things sharp. And Strength 20/Thrh 80 is pretty low. I may try turning it off and see how it looks, but it was past 1AM at the time, I was glad to finally have the black levels fixed, and just went back to my base sharpening. I know a lot of people use Denoise 3D and whatnot, but I just wanted a little bit of sharpening in there.

Using http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ffdshow-20040718.exe I am once again seeing what appears to be a horizontal line bug -- can anyone else confirm this?

using Lanczos4 resize to 1776x1000i @ .85 luma, 0 chroma, param. 4.
denoise @ .15 luma, .30 chroma, HQ, 5.

ATI 9800 Pro, Component out.

Originally posted by KingKong954
Using http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ffdshow-20040718.exe I am once again seeing what appears to be a horizontal line bug -- can anyone else confirm this?

using Lanczos4 resize to 1776x1000i @ .85 luma, 0 chroma, param. 4.
denoise @ .15 luma, .30 chroma, HQ, 5.

ATI 9800 Pro, Component out.

I never said that the older resize bugs (green/lining) was fixed for the none SSE2 version (check changelog), i still had no time (oki no motivation) to relook/debug the org. MMX2 code...
The problem is that my sse2 code base on what i was seeing in the plain c++ version rather than trying to simple convert the org. mmx2 code. After i finished the sse2 code i simply noticed that the bugs are gone and are caused by the mmx2 code and not by a general bug in the way the resizer works. The problem is like always with other asm code .. i dont fully understand the org. mmx2 so it shard to compare/debug. (very time consuming)

If i have time i will try fix also the normal version but no ETA atm... sorry

PS: im trying to get a new release rdy tomorrow with full working resize modes (lanczos1-10), i already reoptimized the denoise3d filter and replaced the normal version with a ultra fast version. For my eyes this new fast version looks like the HQ version but is 16 times faster (takes nearly no CPU) i was able to use denoise3d "fast" after a resized resolution of 2000x1200.

The higher lanczos modes will give us what effects? I just finished running a bunch of comparisons between lanczos and bicubic, and varying degrees of luma sharpening. Lanczos4 blows away Bicubic default, but i saw no difference between lanc4 @ .8 and lanc3 @ .8. .8 is a number I like.. higher numbers of luma sharpening are really lending themselves to some nasty black rings around objects, VERY noticable when there are smaller objects on the screen (as in.. no giant closeups of faces, but leaves far off, or people far away..).

Originally posted by KingKong954
Using http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/ffdshow-20040718.exe I am once again seeing what appears to be a horizontal line bug -- can anyone else confirm this?

using Lanczos4 resize to 1776x1000i @ .85 luma, 0 chroma, param. 4.
denoise @ .15 luma, .30 chroma, HQ, 5.

ATI 9800 Pro, Component out.

Yes, I see this same effect. It is particularly noticeable on the opening title for Toy Story 2 (horizontal lines through the red text at about 50secs into the movie). Using lanczos4 to resize to 1024x768.

The SSE2 (0709) version fixes the problem, but it has a green line down the right-hand side of the scaled image (only about 10 pixels wide). I am in PAL land if it makes a difference.

Cheers
Cameron

Originally posted by Mark_A_W
Ok, I've got the Avisynth colourspace filter working and it changes the colour all right.

But I CANNOT see a colour difference between no resize and resize to 1440x1152. (With the avisynth filter turned off.)

Or resize to 720x576 and resize to 1440x1152. No change here either.

I'm watching PAL on a Radeon 9000 pro.

If the difference is the same amount as with/without the Avisynth filter then I should see it EASY. I can spot that a mile away.

Yes, I am pressing stop and play between fiddling.

Am I missing something? The colour difference is just not there!

Mark,

Did you play further, and conclude anything?

Gazza I can't see a colour change with overlay or VMR7 between a big resize and no resize. Not with my eyes.

Azzad is going to look into it with his Colorfacts (hopefully), and Benny is colour calibrating my CRT projector with his Colorfacts on Sunday. Hopefully we will have enough time to see if we can measure a difference.

Originally posted by CameronR
The SSE2 (0709) version fixes the problem, but it has a green line down the right-hand side of the scaled image (only about 10 pixels wide). I am in PAL land if it makes a difference.

Cheers
Cameron

mhh this is new to me, anyone else having this problem too? I never noticed a "green line".

Andy,
have you moved your files to a new place?

I can't access:
h**p://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/ffdshow/
it says:
403 Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /ieggei2/ffdshow/ on this server.

Originally posted by JavierS
Andy,
have you moved your files to a new place?

I can't access:
h**p://mitglied.lycos.de/ieggei2/ffdshow/
it says:
403 Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /ieggei2/ffdshow/ on this server.

lycos kicked me, but Athos got me access to his host too, so the new SSE2 versions will be also hosted there: http://athos.leffe.dnsalias.com/

Milan also added me to the dev list in the sourceforge project, i will add a SSE2/64bit branch there soon and maybe also use this download location.

I had followed the hot discution between pro & against denoise 3D.
For the very "purist" that claims that the "grain noise" of the film is a part of the artistic intention of the director, and for the people like me that wants absolutly to take the best of each DVD and wants to remove all the MPEG2 artifact that can occurs on slow shading colors (sky, background, stability of the image) HERE IS A CONFIG THAT YOU SHOULD TRY!

-denoise 3D 0-0-6 HQ
-properties (if needed)
-level in 16 235 out 0 255
-lanczos 4 - luma1.2 - chroma0
-sw sharpen - luma 1.6 (if you want a suplementary sharpness)

Yes you read right, the params for denoise 3d are 0 0 6 HQ!!!
-It will act on slow shading artifact that are blocky during the time and not smooth (for exemple: the 4:3 TITANIC title sequence when the submarine dive with the glow around its lights. 2nd exemple: 16:9 Truman Show, the "blocky" MPEG2 compression of the backgroung in the scene where Truman menace his wife with a knife and his friend arrive whith some beer. 3rd example: the 4:3 NTSC Hell in Pacific during all the title sequence with the blocky sky, that is now smooth and natural!)
-It will not remove the grain (the intensity param is too low and time param is too long to act on contrasted noise)
- please note also that denoise3D should be the first filter into your sequence...

best regards

i'm done tweaking, would like to thank AndyIEG and everybody who has contributed in the discussions...even if i couldn't follow half of it!!!

from not being able to do much with it i'm now running SSE2 at:

sharpen 35
dnoise3d 0.58, 0.58, 5, HQ
3x PAL resize!!!
Bicubic
Overlay
YV12

running at 720p at 50hz into SonyHS20 via DVI
Zoom-player Pro, Sonic, Re-clock - smooth, zero stutters...

Used Underworld and LOTR TT to calibrate - FANTASTIC picture, finally!!!!

Perseverance is the name of the game.

Thanks
Andy

I had followed the hot discution between pro & against denoise 3D.
For the very "purist" that claims that the "grain noise" of the film is a part of the artistic intention of the director, and for the people like me that wants absolutly to take the best of each DVD and wants to remove all the MPEG2 artifact that can occurs on slow shading colors (sky, background, stability of the image) HERE IS A CONFIG THAT YOU SHOULD TRY!

-denoise 3D 0-0-6 HQ
-properties (if needed)
-level in 16 235 out 0 255
-lanczos 4 - luma1.2 - chroma0
-sw sharpen - luma 1.6 (if you want a suplementary sharpness)

Yes you read right, the params for denoise 3d are 0 0 6 HQ!!!
-It will act on slow shading artifact that are "blocky" during the time and not smooth (for exemple: the 4:3 TITANIC title sequence when the submarine dive with the glow around its lights. 2nd exemple: 16:9 Truman Show, the "blocky" MPEG2 compression of the backgroung in the scene where Truman menace his wife with a knife and his friend arrive whith some beer. 3rd example: the 4:3 NTSC Hell in Pacific during all the title sequence with the blocky sky, that is now smooth and natural!)
-It will not remove the grain (the intensity param is too low and time param is too long to act on contrasted noise)
- please note also that denoise3D should be the first filter into your sequence...

This is a long time that I have tested this config, and I had just forgotten about it, but when I read all of the discution between pro & against noise reduction, I have redone some extensives tests with or without noise reduction.
In my results, I always find a pitty that what could be a good config for one noisy DVD, was not good for an other DVD, and I thought at that moment that after two hours test in one day, I prefer one solution and the folowing day I prefer the other one!!!
And finally, I remember about my special config I have done one time for the DVD "Hell in Pacific" (4:3 NTSC cinemascope!) with its wondefull photography but blury & heavily compressed. When there is a new option in FFDSHOW, I always came back to that DVD to try to let it looks better as it deserve it!
So after all my test that had folowed the argument between pro & against noise reduction, I reuse the 0 0 6 HQ sequence on denoise 3D, and finally found that it could be the perfect compromise!

best regards

Marsone:

what does your timing of 6, instead of the frequently used 5, accomplish?

Grooby:

I think you should look into Lanczos resize instead of bicubic, while dumping the sharpening. Lanczos is SIGNIFICANTLY more sharp than bicubic (i just finished running a couple hours worth of screen capture comparisons). It may not let you run it at 3x, but it's going to be a better sharpening effect -- I think you need to play with your config some more :)

I have compared lanczos a little to bicubic. I compared first on closer scenes where my brief testing thus far seems that they are very close in detail of faces etc. However on distance shots Bicubic is somewhat less sharp, but in a good way in that Lanczos adds a slight "edgeness" due to this.

I'll have to do some more comparo's but im leaning toward bicubic myself as i really want increased sharpeness for closer scenes as SD PAL (more so NTSC i guess (dont watch)) does not really have the initial resolution to "sharpen up" distance shots and keep them smooth at the same time.

Originally posted by Spoonfed
I have compared lanczos a little to bicubic. I compared first on closer scenes where my brief testing thus far seems that they are very close in detail of faces etc. However on distance shots Bicubic is somewhat less sharp, but in a good way in that Lanczos adds a slight "edgeness" due to this.

I'll have to do some more comparo's but im leaning toward bicubic myself as i really want increased sharpeness for closer scenes as SD PAL (more so NTSC i guess (dont watch)) does not really have the initial resolution to "sharpen up" distance shots and keep them smooth at the same time.


I ran my comparisons on close-ups because it's easiest to define what detail is being brought out from it. Infact, it was a closeup of jeff bridges' face in Seabiscuit. I was pretty amazed at what a difference I saw when resizing to 1776x1000i in Bicubic vs. Lanczos. I was using NO luma or chroma sharpening, thus the "edgeness" you report is really non-existant (and it's an effect i also HATE). This was just a comparison on the base algorithms of the two.

Perhaps I can save the results and create an animated gif for you later on (when i get home from work).

Mars1 I see that your profile lists your equipment as
ATHLON XP 1800+ / RADEON 9000Pro II / 512Mo Ram

Your still using this equipement for these settings?
-denoise 3D 0-0-6 HQ
-properties (if needed)
-level in 16 235 out 0 255
-lanczos 4 - luma1.2 - chroma0
-sw sharpen - luma 1.6 (if you want a suplementary sharpness)

What display are you using? I have a CRT Projector Marquee 8500 with the same PC as you have. But use Theater Tek

KingKong954

Oh i've tried everything over last month...to be honest the settings i have are the best i have managed on my LCD proj. Even using Lanczos...i'm now afraid to try summit different again. its took me this long to get an image i could be happy with !!

PS: im trying to get a new release rdy tomorrow with full working resize modes (lanczos1-10), i already reoptimized the denoise3d filter and replaced the normal version with a ultra fast version. For my eyes this new fast version looks like the HQ version but is 16 times faster (takes nearly no CPU) i was able to use denoise3d "fast" after a resized resolution of 2000x1200.

Awesome news! Can't wait till it release, more tweaking this weekend. =)

After a week of going mad trying to figure out why my picture was stuttering so bad with little or no Resize, I feel like some kind of great mystery. For me anyway. I ordered and downloaded spysweep this morning and ran my machine through a full scan. After Spysweep identified and removed the spy and adware, my playback went back to normal.....just like that. I can now run Denoise optimized, Lanzcos 4 at 1776X1000, and VMR7....No freezing or stuttering. That was amazing considering as recently as last night I couldn't even resize to 960X540 without stuttering and freezing. I'm no expert, but I just couldn't believe that spy and adware can cause problems with Video playback. A week ago when the problem started I would check the Task Manager religously, and it only showed ZoomPlayer running. I guess that stuff reaks Havoc behind the scenes. I am just relieved that I am able to get the results I wanted again.

Patriots
I would suggest everyone download and install SPYBOT and ADAWARE.
This is free software that will detect all spyware on your hardrive and registery. Just like an anti-virus program you must download the latest updates on a regular basis to protect your system from the latest spyware.
Spyware is not a virus so Norton or McAffee will not detect or remove it. Companies and individuals on the internet use spyware to track your movements, spy on your activity, redirect your surfing, pop up adds, intall programs and search tools.
I'm a GIS Helpdesk technician.

Originally posted by Mars1
I had followed the hot discution between pro & against denoise 3D.
For the very "purist" that claims that the "grain noise" of the film is a part of the artistic intention of the director, and for the people like me that wants absolutly to take the best of each DVD and wants to remove all the MPEG2 artifact that can occurs on slow shading colors (sky, background, stability of the image) HERE IS A CONFIG THAT YOU SHOULD TRY!

-denoise 3D 0-0-6 HQ
-properties (if needed)
-level in 16 235 out 0 255
-lanczos 4 - luma1.2 - chroma0
-sw sharpen - luma 1.6 (if you want a suplementary sharpness)

Yes you read right, the params for denoise 3d are 0 0 6 HQ!!!
-It will act on slow shading artifact that are "blocky" during the time and not smooth (for exemple: the 4:3 TITANIC title sequence when the submarine dive with the glow around its lights. 2nd exemple: 16:9 Truman Show, the "blocky" MPEG2 compression of the backgroung in the scene where Truman menace his wife with a knife and his friend arrive whith some beer. 3rd example: the 4:3 NTSC Hell in Pacific during all the title sequence with the blocky sky, that is now smooth and natural!)
-It will not remove the grain (the intensity param is too low and time param is too long to act on contrasted noise)
- please note also that denoise3D should be the first filter into your sequence...

This is a long time that I have tested this config, and I had just forgotten about it, but when I read all of the discution between pro & against noise reduction, I have redone some extensives tests with or without noise reduction.
In my results, I always find a pitty that what could be a good config for one noisy DVD, was not good for an other DVD, and I thought at that moment that after two hours test in one day, I prefer one solution and the folowing day I prefer the other one!!!
And finally, I remember about my special config I have done one time for the DVD "Hell in Pacific" (4:3 NTSC cinemascope!) with its wondefull photography but blury & heavily compressed. When there is a new option in FFDSHOW, I always came back to that DVD to try to let it looks better as it deserve it!
So after all my test that had folowed the argument between pro & against noise reduction, I reuse the 0 0 6 HQ sequence on denoise 3D, and finally found that it could be the perfect compromise!

best regards

I changed my setting in FFDSHOW to match what MARS1 has except I kept my Denoise3D settings to .5, .5, 5 HQ.
Lancoz, 1.0 Luma, 0 Chroma.
Resize 740x480.
AMD1800, 256 megs ram, 9200se Radeon. Theater Tek

Rented Starsky and Hutch tonight to test the new settings out on. I'm happy with these new settings. Before I was just running plain Denoise3D but after I added the other settings the picture got sharper and smoother looking. I initially tried 1280x720 but was pinging 100% and getting mini stuttering.
Makes me want to upgrade my HTPC to realize even more image quality :)

Originally posted by N3W813
Awesome news! Can't wait till it release, more tweaking this weekend. =)

sorry no new release this weekend, im taking off and getting some sun out in the "real" world visiting some friends.
So u will have to wait till next week, i made some nice progress with the resizer and i finaly found a working routine wich is faster than the old. So for my system with new "fast" denoise3d + new resizer i had 40% more cpu time left. So im hoping that the next release will finaly solve all "choppy" playback problems wich are cpu related....


PS: some little notes on your denoise3d settings, all values from luma/chroma 0-0.8 will result in the same internal coefs aka it dont matter what u use. Also the coefs for time: 4-6 are nearly identical so dont waste time to try find the best setup since there is no diff. in those ranges.

see ya next week

Originally posted by stylinlp
Mars1 I see that your profile lists your equipment as
ATHLON XP 1800+ / RADEON 9000Pro II / 512Mo Ram

Your still using this equipement for these settings?
-denoise 3D 0-0-6 HQ
-properties (if needed)
-level in 16 235 out 0 255
-lanczos 4 - luma1.2 - chroma0
-sw sharpen - luma 1.6 (if you want a suplementary sharpness)

What display are you using? I have a CRT Projector Marquee 8500 with the same PC as you have. But use Theater Tek

I have overclocked my Athlon to 1900+.
I use also TheaterTek. (so overlay)
I use both kind of display for output:
- 800x600 EPSON LCD EMP500 projector
- 1600x1200 19" SONY MONITOR
I have also made some extended test on a SHARP XVZ9000 DLP projector.

So I will tend to observe the folowing comments on noise reduction:
- VIDEO NOISE tends to give a bad looking in my LCD & in the sharp 9000. I never had the impression on those two displays that the reduction of noise have made the faces of people looking "unreal" or "plastic", as some of us have observed in their tests.
- on the other hand, VIDEO NOISE will not have a bad looking on CRT solution, especially when you reach the top frequency available of your display (for those that are using their CRT at their max available frequency!!!). This is because a CRT will tend to "smooth" the signal when it reaches its max band-width.

For CRT and TV owner, please find attached the 'NokiaTest Monitor' program.
Run it at you high res output, and run the 3rd test (resolution): left mouse click to change the width of the lines, right mouse click to change from vertical to horizontal resolution test... Let's see if you are able to see clearly and distinctly all the lines separated one from the other on all the angles of the screen... and you will understand how much your signal is smoothest when it reaches some high frequency (you should read detail loss in high resolution). But don't worry, it will not signified that your image will not look good, but instead that you are not able to have the full theorical contrast between one white dot next a black dot at your maximum resolution. By the way the resolution of a DVD is still 720 dot and every sequence filter in FFDSHOW will not create a 1440 dot resolution detail, but a 1440 smooth curve. For CRT owner, one big improvment is always to multiply the number of lines more than the horizontal resolution itself to have a better solid image.

Having say that, stylinlp , I tend to think that with the kind of CPU power configuration that we had both, on a CRT projector, I will prefer to rescale at High resolution instead of using all my CPU power into the noise reduction with denoise 3d.
But on the other hand you may reuse your videocard to upscale after ffdshow to a better resolution like 720lines or 1080lines.
stylinlp:
So, what looks better with your system?
-denoise3d config with low rescale lanczoz+ videocard upscaling ?
or
-1440*720 lancsoz 4 without noise reduction at 720lines output to your CRT?

best regards,

Originally posted by AndyIEG
PS: some little notes on your denoise3d settings, all values from luma/chroma 0-0.8 will result in the same internal coefs aka it dont matter what u use. Also the coefs for time: 4-6 are nearly identical so dont waste time to try find the best setup since there is no diff. in those ranges.


so 0.5 1 5 HQ or 0 0 6 HQ same result?
Isn't it a way to lowerer the intensity of denoise 3D?

best regards Andy!

Mars1....oh. Thats alot to think about.

I orginally had my screen resolution with no ffdshow installed at 1440x960 which is 2x native DVD resolution. Then I was told on the crt projector forum that res would be optimal if my marquee 8500 was in excellent condition tubes and prefectly aligned and setup.

The advice I recieved was to drop the res down to 720x1280. Since I did that I can clearly see the scan lines from 6' away. Clean distintive scan lines. I could not see them that well at 1440x960. But I didn't use that Nokia program as you suggested to check resolution. I do have that program and used it to set contrast and brightness.

BTW your input setting of 16, 235 made a huge differance in image quality. Very smooth colors and more film like.

I could try changing the res back to 1440x960 and turn off all the filters in ffdshow and just run resize at lancsoz 4 at 720x480. I couldn't run Lancoz at 1280x720 too much stuttering. 100% CPU spikes.
What is lancsoz 4 how do you get it? I just see lancsoz. Is it a seperate setting on that Resize screen to use differant lancsoz's?

The 4 in Lancsoz 4 means the setting/parameter (to right of dropdown selection list). When this parameter is set to 4, you have Lancsoz 4. If you change the parameter, that changes it to Lancsoz 8 or 2 or whatever.

What exactly does the higher "parameter" setting acheive?

I use BiCubic, as mentioned previous i've tried to see if any "close up" detail is lost vs Lancsoz, on my system it seems not (well not noticable) though on distance shots with the same apparent "close up detail" bicubic is cleaner and less edgy.

.....i guess the same "paramater" applies to bicubic also, but im not 100% on what it actually does.

While we are on the Resize (scaling) topic, anyone know how's those standalone Scalers work in term of Resize/Scaling? Do they use BiCubic, Lancsoz or other unknown method?

regards,

Li On

I'm building an HTPC and trying to optimize it to run FFDSHOW. I figured I'd get a Prescott for the sse3 capability after seeing the following version 2004-07-18 info indicating it's already in the code. But several posts in this thread including one from Andy seem to say it isn't. Does anyone know if portions might be sse3 optimized or if it might be added anytime soon?

http://www.tech-critic.com/comments.php?id=10042&catid=2

thanks
Jerry

Originally posted by Jerry Mitchell
I'm building an HTPC and trying to optimize it to run FFDSHOW. I figured I'd get a Prescott for the sse3 capability after seeing the following version 2004-07-18 info indicating it's already in the code. But several posts in this thread including one from Andy seem to say it isn't. Does anyone know if portions might be sse3 optimized or if it might be added anytime soon?

http://www.tech-critic.com/comments.php?id=10042&catid=2

thanks
Jerry

There is no SSE3 optimized code in ffdshow, since i dont own a P4 i will not implement any SSE3 code (since i cant test it). But dont worry the new instructions from SSE3 are nice but u rarly need them and the speed gain wont be this much anyway.

Originally posted by fp007
Pat, HT is enable. But when I use the 20040629 verison, which is non SSE2 I presume (correct me here), I don't have stuttering; HT is enabled too. Moreover, the SSE2 optimization are supposed to increase the performance, not the reverse. also, I got stuttering even if I only resize to 1440x960; even when I only denoize (no resize) I got stuttering.
When I saw RolfHult using the SSE2 version on a 2.5Ghz, with no problem I assume, why would I be short on horsepower with a 3.0 Ghz? I run basically the same setting as he reported a couple post above.

FP007,

Do you have AGP FastWrites enabled for your video card? I was in a similar situation where I was driving myself nuts trying to figure out why my system that should've been able to handle resize above 1440x960 was getting maxed out at close to 960x540. For some reason, AGP FastWrites was disabled in my bios and when I turned it on, bam my CPU utilization when way down.

Now I can resize to 1980x1980 with 80% utilization but unfortunately my video card can't handle it and I get a little bit of tearing.

Also, check out this thread which may help, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=425093&highlight=latency.

Finally, I'm not sure about other cards but on my ATI 9800 Pro, once I enabled FastWrites in my BIOS, I had to go to the display settings and enable it there too. Hope this helps...

Where is FastWrites in the display settings? I couldn't find it in the ATI control panel.

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
Where is FastWrites in the display settings? I couldn't find it in the ATI control panel.
It's actually in the BIOS settings, and applies to all AGP cards (not just ATI). I've read references that Fast Writes can cause problems with some ATI cards on some motherboards, but it seems to work fine for me.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
Where is FastWrites in the display settings? I couldn't find it in the ATI control panel.

blackmax2k1,

This is how I get to it:

1) Click Advanced under the Settings tab for Display Properties dialog.
2) Goto SMARTGART(tm) tab
3) Make sure the Set AGP Speed is all the way to the right (mine is at 8X).
4) Make sure that Fast Write radio button is set to On.

Whenever I make a change on the screen I usually have to reboot. Also, I'm not sure if I mentioned this but Fast Writes have to be enabled in the BIOS before you can set it in Display Properties.

Cool. I'll have to try this too. I've been having so many problems with older WinDVD 4 codecs (video freezing every 2-5 minutes) that it's nice to only have to worry about a few dropped frames every now and then - although it's still annoying, of course.

Thanks for the reply! I'll try it out.

Any update from Andy on the new release?

Good lord... this thread sat idle for over 24 hours! I think it's a sign of the apocolypse ;)

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
Any update from Andy on the new release?

Aiming for the weekend, at least a preview version. Since im having some speed problems with some parts i need experiment a lot wich takes time.

One thing - I noticed in a previous version, in the Resize Settings window, it had a list of recommended settings for the different Lancsoz parameters, etc. These are gone in the 07-18 SSE version I have. Is there a reason they're gone? I remember seeing this kind of thing for example "Lancsoz 4 - up to .8, over that uses less-optimized routines that are slower." Having this there would help trying to smooth out the dropped frames I get. Thanks.

Originally posted by cyberbri
One thing - I noticed in a previous version, in the Resize Settings window, it had a list of recommended settings for the different Lancsoz parameters, etc. These are gone in the 07-18 SSE version I have. Is there a reason they're gone? I remember seeing this kind of thing for example "Lancsoz 4 - up to .8, over that uses less-optimized routines that are slower." Having this there would help trying to smooth out the dropped frames I get. Thanks.

easy, there is no 07-18 SSE/2 version. The last SSE2 version was the 07-09, if the file name dont match "...._SSE2.exe" its the normal MMX version. Since those tips mainly apply to the SSE2 version they arnt in the MMX version.