John - they forgot to feed the hamster this morning...

On another subject, does anyone in the Seattle area pick up either of the Bellingham DTV stations (ch 19 & 35)?

I'm tempted to say Q13 may have increased their power or something. For the first time since I installed my antenna a couple of weeks ago, I'm getting it. Before I was only getting the QA stations (which is of course, where I pointed my antenna!).

Letterman announced recently he will FINALLY be going HD in September. They have had the cameras in place for over a year now.

Originally posted by forum junkie
Radtek - I just talked to a friend who works at Yelm Tel about their testing to send out TV. Even with their 100 ft. tower and 12 yagi's they are having trouble with KIRO and some with KING. Guess it's not just us home owners with our roof tops.

forum junkie, Well I guess that is comforting .... I think ?? But! tonight is a good night :) all the channels are coming in strong and clear even 7-1!
I seem to get the best reception when we have the inclement weather fronts rolling in.

This thread/website is excellent for those of us looking for [sometimes] specific information, but have found it hard to come by. I have a few items I would like to get help on if I can.

I checked on antennaweb.org and it shows that I would need a medium to large directional antenna with a pre-amp to get most of my stations.

I figured that I would try a small multidirectional just to get my first taste. The first antenna I tried was a Jensen 640 [rabbit-ears style - $25] and was able to pick up decent signals from Fox, KBTC, WB, KING, and KOMO without even rotating the antenna. Encouraged by this, I tried three other, more expensive TV-top models [Jensen 910, Philips w/amp, and RS w/amp]. The more expensive antennas barely picked up one station [Fox] and I don't understand why. I don't want to have to put up an exterior if I don't have to.

I did find one other website with similar [but more indepth] information as antennaweb.org, but cannot relocate it -- if anyone should happen to have seen it, please let me know.

The nearest intersection is Whitworth Ct S and S 26th St 98055. It looks like I may have a problem getting KIRO [CBS], which is a station I would really like to get. quarque if you can plug this intersection into your topo map and figure out my line of sight and/or the type of antenna I can use, I would greatly appreciate it. I have a Samsung 151.

I have had so many questions in the past few months while educating myself on HD, but cannot think of my other questions at this time. I look forward to coming back and reading more posts when I have some more time.

Thanks

I live on the west side of San Juan Island, WA (98250) with Victoria, BC to the SW, Port Townsend to the S. What attic OTA antenna for my D* HDTV would be the best?

Originally posted by tpring98056
This thread/website is excellent for those of us looking for [sometimes] specific information, but have found it hard to come by. I have a few items I would like to get help on if I can.

I checked on antennaweb.org and it shows that I would need a medium to large directional antenna with a pre-amp to get most of my stations.

I figured that I would try a small multidirectional just to get my first taste. The first antenna I tried was a Jensen 640 [rabbit-ears style - $25] and was able to pick up decent signals from Fox, KBTC, WB, KING, and KOMO without even rotating the antenna. Encouraged by this, I tried three other, more expensive TV-top models [Jensen 910, Philips w/amp, and RS w/amp]. The more expensive antennas barely picked up one station [Fox] and I don't understand why. I don't want to have to put up an exterior if I don't have to.

I did find one other website with similar [but more indepth] information as antennaweb.org, but cannot relocate it -- if anyone should happen to have seen it, please let me know.

The nearest intersection is Whitworth Ct S and S 26th St 98055. It looks like I may have a problem getting KIRO [CBS], which is a station I would really like to get. quarque if you can plug this intersection into your topo map and figure out my line of sight and/or the type of antenna I can use, I would greatly appreciate it. I have a Samsung 151.

I have had so many questions in the past few months while educating myself on HD, but cannot think of my other questions at this time. I look forward to coming back and reading more posts when I have some more time.

Thanks
antennaweb.org blindly assumes there are no hills in your way. If there were none, you wouldn't need a LARGE antenna OR a pre-amp. Unfortunately, there is a large hill in your way 2 miles to the NW. You would need a 100-foot tower to clear it. So you are obviously picking up reflected signals. These will be unreliable over the long term. I'm afraid your first indoor antenna may be the best you can do. Hope you can get your money back on the others.

Originally posted by tpring98056
This thread/website is excellent for those of us looking for [sometimes] specific information, but have found it hard to come by. I have a few items I would like to get help on if I can.

I checked on antennaweb.org and it shows that I would need a medium to large directional antenna with a pre-amp to get most of my stations.

I figured that I would try a small multidirectional just to get my first taste. The first antenna I tried was a Jensen 640 [rabbit-ears style - $25] and was able to pick up decent signals from Fox, KBTC, WB, KING, and KOMO without even rotating the antenna. Encouraged by this, I tried three other, more expensive TV-top models [Jensen 910, Philips w/amp, and RS w/amp]. The more expensive antennas barely picked up one station [Fox] and I don't understand why. I don't want to have to put up an exterior if I don't have to.

I did find one other website with similar [but more indepth] information as antennaweb.org, but cannot relocate it -- if anyone should happen to have seen it, please let me know.

The nearest intersection is Whitworth Ct S and S 26th St 98055. It looks like I may have a problem getting KIRO [CBS], which is a station I would really like to get. quarque if you can plug this intersection into your topo map and figure out my line of sight and/or the type of antenna I can use, I would greatly appreciate it. I have a Samsung 151.

I have had so many questions in the past few months while educating myself on HD, but cannot think of my other questions at this time. I look forward to coming back and reading more posts when I have some more time.

Thanks

I live up the hill from you, in Fairwood West on SE 164th St. I was not able to get satisfactory HDTV reception with any indoor antenna, including the Silver Sensor, which is a highly-regarded indoor UHF antenna.

Instead I went with a small rooftop UHF-only $24 antenna from Radio Shack: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

Their web site indicates that there is one in stock at the North Benson Radio Shack, in the Fred Meyer Shopping Center at Petro/SE 176th/Carr Road and Benson/108th SE.

I have mine aimed such that I can get Bremerton Gold Mt. (13) from the west, Queen Anne Hill (4, 5, 7, 16) and Capitol Hill (9, 11, 22) in the center, and Tiger Mt. to the east (33). I don't get Tacoma ch 28 PBS.

I prefer the outdoor antenna and lack of need to rotate it so I can record any OTA HDTV anytime on My HD TiVo unit. My reception is rock solid on all channels except PAX-33, which does not broadcast any HDTV anyway.

Good luck.

Originally posted by fisherman
I live on the west side of San Juan Island, WA (98250) with Victoria, BC to the SW, Port Townsend to the S. What attic OTA antenna for my D* HDTV would be the best?
Which stations are you trying to get? The Seattle towers are 70+ miles which would not be possible with any antenna indoors (and barely possible with the best outdoor antennas). I'm not familiar with the Canadian tower locations so I can't comment there. I am assuming you are only interested in digital channels, not analog. I mention this only because there have been posters in this thread who were asking about analog stations & antennas without telling us (this is an HDTV forum). If you really want to try for Seattle, search the Hardware Forum for discussions on long-distance UHF reception. They have chewed on that topic ad nauseum for years.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I live up the hill from you, in Fairwood West on SE 164th St. I was not able to get satisfactory HDTV reception with any indoor antenna, including the Silver Sensor, which is a highly-regarded indoor UHF antenna.

Instead I went with a small rooftop UHF-only $24 antenna from Radio Shack: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

Their web site indicates that there is one in stock at the North Benson Radio Shack, in the Fred Meyer Shopping Center at Petro/SE 176th/Carr Road and Benson/108th SE.

I have mine aimed such that I can get Bremerton Gold Mt. (13) from the west, Queen Anne Hill (4, 5, 7, 16) and Capitol Hill (9, 11, 22) in the center, and Tiger Mt. to the east (33). I don't get Tacoma ch 28 PBS.

I prefer the outdoor antenna and lack of need to rotate it so I can record any OTA HDTV anytime on My HD TiVo unit. My reception is rock solid on all channels except PAX-33, which does not broadcast any HDTV anyway.

Good luck.
Dave - you are a good 400+ feet higher and so not affected by the hills in between. I'm afraid he is SOL unless you can run a coax down to his house. :D

I realize that I am lucky to live near the top of this hill. I had a feeling he would be in the shadow of Skyway and Beacon Hill.

Who knew when I moved here 30 years ago that I would luck out on OTA HD reception. My OTA analog reception is marginal at best, and essentially unbearable for a techie like me who knows what the originals look like in the studios. Even the analog cable pq is pretty bad here, although much better than analog OTA. DirecTV was an improvement, but digital TV is fantastic!

Thanks for your input -- even though some of it was hard to take.

I'm afraid he is SOL unless you can run a coax down to his house.

hmmmmmm...


quarque, when you say that, "the first indoor antenna is the best I can do". Are you saying not to even bother with any outdoor models?

I had a feeling he would be in the shadow of Skyway and Beacon Hill.


Any plans for a Beacon Hill/Skyway regrade????

Originally posted by tpring98056
Thanks for your input -- even though some of it was hard to take.



hmmmmmm...


quarque, when you say that, "the first indoor antenna is the best I can do". Are you saying not to even bother with any outdoor models?

Yep. And anything short of another 9.0 earthquake to flatten those hills (which would again move the North Pole and change the rotational speed of the earth) would be insufficient.

Originally posted by tpring98056
Thanks for your input -- even though some of it was hard to take.



hmmmmmm...


quarque, when you say that, "the first indoor antenna is the best I can do". Are you saying not to even bother with any outdoor models?

Guys
This is where I would say he has a good chance. The Topo program is good, I have it, too. But.... I have had to eat crow more than once (imagine that!) on some of the surveys. This when experience comes in. For a similar "hopeless, but works pretty good", look at mikeg_ms, on the east side of lake Sammamish. His profile view is almost identical, yet he does pretty well. Granted, he's in a time/space warp location, but it does happen. As for tpring's place, I have done jobs over there, and while Skyway is in the way, somewhat, he's also pretty close in and the signal is really hot there. That's why he gets good results, comparitively, with just rabbit ears. If the hill were a big prob, he wouldn't be doing doodley.
I would say go for the big yagi antenna, as budget said, or use a 4221. Either will work pretty good, it's just a matter of which is easier to mount for you. But you DO need to get it outside to work properly.
NO PREAMPS !!!!
tpring, if you have questions call.
Dan

Originally posted by fisherman
I live on the west side of San Juan Island, WA (98250) with Victoria, BC to the SW, Port Townsend to the S. What attic OTA antenna for my D* HDTV would be the best?

Depends on where you are. As quarque said, assuming you mean digital HD. If you were near Pile Point, no trees to the SE, it could work, but you will need all the help you can get, as in a 4248 and 7775, at minimum. KVOS 35 will come in pretty well, there, as it's only a few miles away on Orcas. BTW, the owner of KVOS, Ackerly, former owner of Super Sonics, has a summer home on Jensen Bay. I did some antenna work for him there years ago. It is possible for Seattle HD, as long as you're not blocked by anything on the island. Once you clear that, it's line of sight. I did help a gentlemen in Victoria, through e-mail, get some of the channels from there. There is hope. Key is where you are, exactly.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
Which stations are you trying to get? The Seattle towers are 70+ miles which would not be possible with any antenna indoors (and barely possible with the best outdoor antennas). I'm not familiar with the Canadian tower locations so I can't comment there. I am assuming you are only interested in digital channels, not analog. I mention this only because there have been posters in this thread who were asking about analog stations & antennas without telling us (this is an HDTV forum). If you really want to try for Seattle, search the Hardware Forum for discussions on long-distance UHF reception. They have chewed on that topic ad nauseum for years.

I would like to get HD. Since southern vancouver island, Victoria and Sidney is line of sight, does anyone know if they have HD transmissions?

Originally posted by fisherman
I would like to get HD. Since southern vancouver island, Victoria and Sidney is line of sight, does anyone know if they have HD transmissions?

I don't think any of the Vancouver, Canada area TV stations are broadcasting HDTV yet.

Originally posted by fisherman
I would like to get HD. Since southern vancouver island, Victoria and Sidney is line of sight, does anyone know if they have HD transmissions?

Here's a web site with more information about the state of HDTV in Canada. Looks like some over-the-air stations are starting to broadcast HDTV, and a fair bit is available on cable or satellite.

http://www.cdtv.ca/en/hdtv-canada.htm

I'd sure like to know a little more. I live in Anacortes and should have a fair shot at HD out of Vancouver, but probably not out of Victoria. But, I don't know if any of the Canadian channels even have digitial signals, much less HD. Anyone know of a good source?

Originally posted by artshotwell
I'd sure like to know a little more. I live in Anacortes and should have a fair shot at HD out of Vancouver, but probably not out of Victoria. But, I don't know if any of the Canadian channels even have digitial signals, much less HD. Anyone know of a good source? Check this: http://www.cdtv.ca/en/what-is-hdtv/delivering-hdtv-services.htm
Toronto CityTV is the only one I heard a while back broadcasting limited HD. They seem still the only one now. I know for sure none of the Canadian broadcasters in BC do digital yet.

Originally posted by artshotwell
I'd sure like to know a little more. I live in Anacortes and should have a fair shot at HD out of Vancouver, but probably not out of Victoria. But, I don't know if any of the Canadian channels even have digitial signals, much less HD. Anyone know of a good source?

Though it doens't look like either has signed on, approval has been granted for CBUT and CIVT to begin transitional digital broadcasting from Mt. Seymour, albeit at very, very low power:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Decisions/2004/db2004-484.htm

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Decisions/2004/db2004-66.htm

For what it's worth, CITY-DT and CKXT-DT are transmitting from the CN Tower in Toronto at similar power levels, with reliable reception reported in upstate New York. I would expect that CBUT-DT would be signing on very soon, since CBLT-DT in Toronto has finally fired up its transmitter.

Thanks for the links re: Canadian HDTV. It seemed to me that CITY TV had been on the air in HD for months now, but I hadn't seen any hints of other broadcasters. Art

A few pages back (sorry, haven't been on this thread in quite a while) was some discussion of HD locals.

According to DirecTV at CES, no new/additional equipment is needed, standard 3-LNB dish and any current HD reciever will work fine.

I'm completely bummed though that Seattle didn't make the top 12, my reading of the press release was that it might be 2007. Would be great if quicker, but I won't hold my breath.

I can't (easily) get Comcast, though with this announcement, I've actually called their buildout group and started the process, though it's looking like it might be $10000 or more (it seems I'm a long way from any existing cable plant).

Though for that much I could build one heck of an antenna, wouldn't that be a pretty sight :-)

Originally posted by Skypalace
A few pages back (sorry, haven't been on this thread in quite a while) was some discussion of HD locals.

According to DirecTV at CES, no new/additional equipment is needed, standard 3-LNB dish and any current HD reciever will work fine.

I'm completely bummed though that Seattle didn't make the top 12, my reading of the press release was that it might be 2007. Would be great if quicker, but I won't hold my breath.

I can't (easily) get Comcast, though with this announcement, I've actually called their buildout group and started the process, though it's looking like it might be $10000 or more (it seems I'm a long way from any existing cable plant).

Though for that much I could build one heck of an antenna, wouldn't that be a pretty sight :-)

Not true. In DirecTV's CES announcement they stated they're moving from MPEG2 to MPEG4 compression for the new HD Local channels, so new receivers/dishes/LNBs will indeed be required. What we don't know yet is whether DirecTV will swap them for free or how that program will work.

Lots more information in the DirecTV+Tivo and HiDef Tivo Forums at http://www.tivocommunity.com, as well as the HDTV Equipment Forum here.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Guys
This is where I would say he has a good chance. The Topo program is good, I have it, too. But.... I have had to eat crow more than once (imagine that!) on some of the surveys.
Dan
Dan - I have used a GPS to verify the DeLorme topo maps at dozens of locations and they are EXTREMELY accurate, especially in populated areas where there are roads. I have several friends who have done the same and so far no one has reported any measurable errors. A good GPS with WAAS can get down to +/- 3 feet easily.

Based on that, I can tell you for certain, he does not have line-of-sight to the Seattle towers. Not by a long shot. I won't argue that he can get some reflected signals (obviously he does). All I'm saying is that reflections are not nearly as reliable as direct signals. If time and money is no object then sure, buy every antenna and try it. Just don't be disappointed when the reception dies in the middle of the Superbowl (insert important TV event of you choice here). If he does end up with a reliable reflection he is very lucky. If you go back a few hundred pages you will find numerous posts about people who spent hours and hours and hundreds of dollars only to end up at AVS and to find out they are in the shadow of a hill.

Originally posted by artshotwell
I'd sure like to know a little more. I live in Anacortes and should have a fair shot at HD out of Vancouver, but probably not out of Victoria. But, I don't know if any of the Canadian channels even have digitial signals, much less HD. Anyone know of a good source?
Art - the FCC site has info on Canadian stations with all the details:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html

It does not tell which ones are transmitting HD programming, only info on channel, power, tower location etc. There appear to be several stations around Vancouver Island and the mainland. Under "State" select "BC..." and under "Services" select "Digital Television" and you will get a list of all DT stations in BC (and there are a bunch of them).

Originally posted by quarque
Art - the FCC site has info on Canadian stations with all the details:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html

Be very careful when using the FCC database for Canadian data. It reflects the channel allocations and ERP projections issued by Industry Canada, not licenses issued by the CRTC.

The FCC site was interesting...thanks for the link. Art

Popping, POPPING, POPPING throughout the first minutes of Alias AND the commercials! What the heck is going on?!? A group of 3-4 pops spaced 5-6 seconds apart, about every 1-2 minutes...

Originally posted by Andy Anderson
Popping, POPPING, POPPING throughout the first minutes of Alias AND the commercials! What the heck is going on?!? A group of 3-4 pops spaced 5-6 seconds apart, about every 1-2 minutes...

Andy -

I got into it about 9:15. I haven't heard any popping since then. Are you still hearing them?

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Don:

On my DTC-100 I am seeing KOMO-DT times at 8 hours earlier than most other DTV stations. The DTC-100 is operating OTA only right now--no satellite connection. The other stations seem to be on normal time. This is definitely PSIP-supplied time.

When I change channels, the time in the channel banner appears to change to that supplied by the station. On 4-1 and 4-2 I get 3:38 when on other stations I get 11:38.

Of course, the DTC-100 is pretty old technology by today's standards of performance. I have no idea how close its PSIP implementation is to "spec". I do see PSIP program guide data for several stations, so that part is at least partially working.

Dave -

I have just been looking at the ATSC bitstream with an MPEG2 analyzer. It shows that the time is correct.

Curious.

On the other hand, KIRO shows 8 hours ahead.

Even more curious.

I am going to look further into this...something is screwy.

Andy -

I got into it about 9:15. I haven't heard any popping since then. Are you still hearing them?


Funnily enough, no. One big pop when Vaughn was strapped down and Syd came in to save him, but not much since the opening minutes...

Andy

Also some glitches again tonight during Lost on KOMO-DT. Seemed to be same symptoms related to the airborn radar interference.

Hey, Don. Remember I mentioned at one point that myTV blanks out sometines during KOMO's newscast? Well, I saw it again tonight. It's during the intro to the 11pm show. There are white flashes between teases and they seem to cause my picture to blackout briefly. At the head of tonight's 10 pm show, a couple of the white flashes did NOT cause the problem and a couple of them did. Thought you'd like to know. Could be my TV.

Originally posted by quarque
Dan - I have used a GPS to verify the DeLorme topo maps at dozens of locations and they are EXTREMELY accurate, especially in populated areas where there are roads. I have several friends who have done the same and so far no one has reported any measurable errors. A good GPS with WAAS can get down to +/- 3 feet easily.

Based on that, I can tell you for certain, he does not have line-of-sight to the Seattle towers. Not by a long shot. I won't argue that he can get some reflected signals (obviously he does). All I'm saying is that reflections are not nearly as reliable as direct signals. If time and money is no object then sure, buy every antenna and try it. Just don't be disappointed when the reception dies in the middle of the Superbowl (insert important TV event of you choice here). If he does end up with a reliable reflection he is very lucky. If you go back a few hundred pages you will find numerous posts about people who spent hours and hours and hundreds of dollars only to end up at AVS and to find out they are in the shadow of a hill.

quarque
First, let me repeat what many others have said for years, Thank You for taking the time to look up all those location requests. It's helped many people make the right decisions. And with your knowledge, too.
My main reason for the comment on the Topo program was to point out when it can fool you, which isn't often.

For example, when you view a path in Profile, for reception, you have to "eyeball" the start point for the tower, because you can't put a spot in the sky, so to speak. By drawing a line from the "floating point" to the site, you can see that he is definitely behind a hill, but how far over his head the MAIN portion of the signal is, one could guesstimate to within 25-50ft. The accuracy of Long/Lat, GPS, elevation, etc, sure, very close.

The other part of where one can get fooled, is that UHF signals are not really line of sight, like a laser. Mostly, yes, but there is still some that comes over the hill, straight at you, that's NOT reflected and can be used. If you're close enough to the towers, and the hilltop is not loaded with trees or other obstructions, which obviously don't show up on the map, the weak, but possibly still clean enough signal will work. And the farther away you are from the hill, which in his case is about 2.7 miles, the better chance you'll have. Reflected signals show up very differently on the meter than a poor signal coming straight at you. Yes, reflected signals are lousy, if that's what you're aiming for, and they would be very unreliable. So much so, I doubt anyone would be able to use them. I've tried many times in bad locations, and the signal just gets too chopped up. He's getting all that signal, very surprisingly, from behind that hill, and that's where the difference comes in between Topo info, almost line of sight UHF reception and the real world.

I use the Topo program almost every day, to check on jobs. About 90% of the time it will tell you the truth, or get you very close to real reception. Then there's the things it can't tell you; how high is the house on the site, how many trees, how thick are they along the signal path and for how far, how many and how high are those tall buildings (like those people have that are on 148th to 160th east of downtown town Bellevue, and they can completely kill one channel, with the rest being fine!), a neighbors tall house smack in the way (like Brent in Ballard), and more. So, you remember those sites that work, when you thought they wouldn't, and file 'em away for reference. After a while, a pattern begins to emerge for certain areas, and 26th and Whitworth is one of those. His rabbit ear results tend to verify it.
Like the kids from the old TV show, "Ain't science fun, Mr. Wizard !".
Dan

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
I have just been looking at the ATSC bitstream with an MPEG2 analyzer. It shows that the time is correct.

Curious.

On the other hand, KIRO shows 8 hours ahead.

I'm not sure if it's a helpful observation, but UTC (GMT, Z, etc.) is 8 hours ahead of PST. Since every DTV receiver I've seen requires you to select your proper timezone, I'd always assumed that the ATSC stream should contain UTC rather than PST? If a station was encoding PST into the stream, and a viewer's receiver was also set to PST, it would make sense that the viewer's receiver would then display a time that's 16 hours behind UTC (8 hours behind PST.)

Originally posted by pastiche
I'm not sure if it's a helpful observation, but UTC (GMT, Z, etc.) is 8 hours ahead of PST. Since every DTV receiver I've seen requires you to select your proper timezone, I'd always assumed that the ATSC stream should contain UTC rather than PST? If a station was encoding PST into the stream, and a viewer's receiver was also set to PST, it would make sense that the viewer's receiver would then display a time that's 16 hours behind UTC (8 hours behind PST.)

That makes ultimate sense. I will bring that possibility to the attention of the maintenance techs. Thanks.

Originally posted by DanKurts
quarque
First, let me repeat what many others have said for years, Thank You for taking the time to look up all those location requests. It's helped many people make the right decisions. And with your knowledge, too.
My main reason for the comment on the Topo program was to point out when it can fool you, which isn't often.

For example, when you view a path in Profile, for reception, you have to "eyeball" the start point for the tower, because you can't put a spot in the sky, so to speak. By drawing a line from the "floating point" to the site, you can see that he is definitely behind a hill, but how far over his head the MAIN portion of the signal is, one could guesstimate to within 25-50ft. The accuracy of Long/Lat, GPS, elevation, etc, sure, very close.

The other part of where one can get fooled, is that UHF signals are not really line of sight, like a laser. Mostly, yes, but there is still some that comes over the hill, straight at you, that's NOT reflected and can be used. If you're close enough to the towers, and the hilltop is not loaded with trees or other obstructions, which obviously don't show up on the map, the weak, but possibly still clean enough signal will work. And the farther away you are from the hill, which in his case is about 2.7 miles, the better chance you'll have. Reflected signals show up very differently on the meter than a poor signal coming straight at you. Yes, reflected signals are lousy, if that's what you're aiming for, and they would be very unreliable. So much so, I doubt anyone would be able to use them. I've tried many times in bad locations, and the signal just gets too chopped up. He's getting all that signal, very surprisingly, from behind that hill, and that's where the difference comes in between Topo info, almost line of sight UHF reception and the real world.

I use the Topo program almost every day, to check on jobs. About 90% of the time it will tell you the truth, or get you very close to real reception. Then there's the things it can't tell you; how high is the house on the site, how many trees, how thick are they along the signal path and for how far, how many and how high are those tall buildings (like those people have that are on 148th to 160th east of downtown town Bellevue, and they can completely kill one channel, with the rest being fine!), a neighbors tall house smack in the way (like Brent in Ballard), and more. So, you remember those sites that work, when you thought they wouldn't, and file 'em away for reference. After a while, a pattern begins to emerge for certain areas, and 26th and Whitworth is one of those. His rabbit ear results tend to verify it.
Like the kids from the old TV show, "Ain't science fun, Mr. Wizard !".
Dan
I agree that there will be some refracted signal come off that hill but again, it is not very reliable. I tend toward pessimism so people are not so disappointed when they can't get reliable OTA. So I still stand by my original observation: reception there will be tricky and unreliable. If it were my house I would not spend a lot of money on OTA - but then I'm just cheap that way.

Originally posted by pastiche
I'm not sure if it's a helpful observation, but UTC (GMT, Z, etc.) is 8 hours ahead of PST. Since every DTV receiver I've seen requires you to select your proper timezone, I'd always assumed that the ATSC stream should contain UTC rather than PST? If a station was encoding PST into the stream, and a viewer's receiver was also set to PST, it would make sense that the viewer's receiver would then display a time that's 16 hours behind UTC (8 hours behind PST.)
That's an interesting theory but then why would other receivers show the correct time for KOMO? If the stream only had PST they should all be off by 8 hours. There must be more information in that stream than just UTC data. Perhaps a time-zone datum of the transmitter itself is thrown in for those cases where the receiver might be across a time-zone boundary.

Originally posted by quarque
That's an interesting theory but then why would other receivers show the correct time for KOMO? If the stream only had PST they should all be off by 8 hours. There must be more information in that stream than just UTC data. Perhaps a time-zone datum of the transmitter itself is thrown in for those cases where the receiver might be across a time-zone boundary.

I suspect that the difference might be some receivers getting their time (as displayed) from DirecTV instead of OTA PSIP. My Hughes E86 is an APG (Advanced Program Guide) based HD OTA/satellite receiver. It gets all of its program guide data from DirecTV APG and does not have an implemented means of getting program guide data from OTA PSIP. I personally don't know how/whether that affects the displayed time, but based on what I see, I would guess that that time does not come from PSIP on a per-channel basis, partly because times for KOMO-DT are as expected.

Conversely, my RCA DTC-100 pre-dates the APG capability and does accept and display PSIP program guide data transmitted by OTA DTV stations. For DirecTV channels, it uses the older EPG from DirecTV, which does not include provisions for OTA DTV channels. On this DTC-100, if I tune to channel 4-1 or 4-2, and then access the program guide, ALL program listings for all listed OTA channels are off by 8 hours, presumably because the reference time was based on PSIP time transmitted by KOMO-DT. If I access the program guide from any other (non-KOMO) channel, all times are within the same (correct) hour, although there can be differences in minutes apparently reflecting slight clock differences between the local stations.

My HR10-250 HD TiVo appears to behave just like the E86, with all times apparently coming from DirecTV, as does all guide data.

Interesting, Dave. So the testing should be done on OTA-only units like my Samsung T150 and similar units. I believe someone posted that a non-Samsung OTA-only unit had the correct time, but I might be wrong.

The PSIP data must have two or more parts to it and some receivers misinterpret what KOMO sends out. It must be UTC plus some type of flag or offset that is supposed to be combined with UTC to get local time.

***************
AVS members: Please post if your OTA-only receiver has the correct time for KOMO-DT.
***************

Anyone watching CSI on CBS right now? I'm not getting any of the center channel audio (though the surrounds seem to come in fine). I'm using an OTA antenna and have no glitches in the reception.

Originally posted by quarque
Interesting, Dave. So the testing should be done on OTA-only units like my Samsung T150 and similar units. I believe someone posted that a non-Samsung OTA-only unit had the correct time, but I might be wrong.

The PSIP data must have two or more parts to it and some receivers misinterpret what KOMO sends out. It must be UTC plus some type of flag or offset that is supposed to be combined with UTC to get local time.

***************
AVS members: Please post if your OTA-only receiver has the correct time for KOMO-DT.
***************

Nope, 8 hours early. In a unrelated matter, I'm getting zero dialogue from my center channel on Kiro DT for CSI right now :-(

edit: Samsung Sir-T351

Originally posted by seadan
Anyone watching CSI on CBS right now? I'm not getting any of the center channel audio (though the surrounds seem to come in fine). I'm using an OTA antenna and have no glitches in the reception.

Wonder if anyone at Kiro knows yet?

Sound is back. I love HDTV.

KTWB's DD5.1 programs (e.g. Everwood) have had messed up audio the past few days, too, during the network-fed programs .... dialog from the left speakers, music from the right, little center channel or surround.

Anyone else noticed this?

Hey KOMO-DT, Aladdin was pretty good, but the frequent audio pops from the left channel continue, as does picture freezing, to a lesser extent. Actually, it was pretty bad...

Thanks quarque and Budget_HT for your previous responses/help as I continue 'baptism by fire'.

I am curious to know:

1 - When I run 'memorize channels' on my Samsung 151 it will 'lock' channel 18, but when I try to go to channel 18, it comes up as 13-1. Is this supposed to happen? Is that because it is actually digital channel 18?

2 - In trying various TV-top antennas, I have noticed that adjusting the 'rabbit-ear' antennas actually does better than moving the hoop antenna which doesn't do seem to do anything at all. Should this be the case? I thought that HD signals were UHF and therefore should show the greater difference when adjusting the hoop antenna.

Thank you,

I noticed that during the Inauguration Day stuff, which ABC & KOMO broadcast in HD and DD5.1, there were audio pops now and then. With a large group of them right as the President was being sworn-in...

Originally posted by tpring98056
Thanks quarque and Budget_HT for your previous responses/help as I continue 'baptism by fire'.

I am curious to know:

1 - When I run 'memorize channels' on my Samsung 151 it will 'lock' channel 18, but when I try to go to channel 18, it comes up as 13-1. Is this supposed to happen? Is that because it is actually digital channel 18?

2 - In trying various TV-top antennas, I have noticed that adjusting the 'rabbit-ear' antennas actually does better than moving the hoop antenna which doesn't do seem to do anything at all. Should this be the case? I thought that HD signals were UHF and therefore should show the greater difference when adjusting the hoop antenna.

Thank you,

1 - Real channel 18 (actual transmitting channel) is mapped by your receiver to logical channel 13 based on PSIP data that is transmitted along with the program on channel 18. Every digital channel is capable of controlling what channel it maps to using the PSIP data generated at the studio. Nearly all stations map their real channel to the same channel number as their analog (NTSC) channel.

http://www.antennaweb.org is a good place to see the real channels and their mapped channels. The main purpose of that site is to help folks choose and orient their antenna. It provides transmitter directions from your home address and identifies a recommended "strength" of antenna, based on distance from the transmitter sites. As you might guess, the antenna strength recommendations are simple and crude, since their logic does not take interfering hills and buildings and trees into account except simplistically by asking you a few basic questions.

2 - I am not an antenna expert and I defer to Dan Kurts or someone with more training and experience. I understand the basics, but I have very little experience with the receiving characteristics of each type of antenna, especially the indoor types.

Were you able to get your receiver to lock on any other stations besides 18/13? Are you aware that the transmitter for that station is on Gold Mountain near Bremerton, which is west of you? The other digital stations of interest are north of you, except KBTC-DT (27/28) which is more south. antennaweb will give you the specifics.

Good luck!!

In attempting to watch Alladin last night on KOMO-DT, I also saw/heard many instances of audio pops and short picture freezes, mostly less than one second each.

Originally posted by tpring98056
Thanks quarque and Budget_HT for your previous responses/help as I continue 'baptism by fire'.

I am curious to know:

1 - When I run 'memorize channels' on my Samsung 151 it will 'lock' channel 18, but when I try to go to channel 18, it comes up as 13-1. Is this supposed to happen? Is that because it is actually digital channel 18?

2 - In trying various TV-top antennas, I have noticed that adjusting the 'rabbit-ear' antennas actually does better than moving the hoop antenna which doesn't do seem to do anything at all. Should this be the case? I thought that HD signals were UHF and therefore should show the greater difference when adjusting the hoop antenna.

Thank you,
1 - Budget_HT expained it very well. You can also direct tune channels that are not picked up by the scan when you are trying to bring in a pesky new channel.

2 - In theory, the loop and the ears are supposed to be isolated from each other and act as two distinct antennas. In reality, there is always some coupling between the two and so one affects the other to some degree. Basically, whatever works the best is, well, the best. You can also play with the length of the rabbit ears as well as orientation. One configuration that works sometimes is to put the ears in a straight horizontal line and adjust the length for maximum signal. Also note that the loop antenna is EXTREMELY non-directional, meaning it has almost the same gain at all angles except for a slight dip on the "sides" (or edges) of the loop.

Anyone watch 24 on Fox 13-1 last night? Some time around 15 minutes into the show, a Pepsi commercial just started playing out of the blue! I quickly switched to the analog channel (on D*), and it was fine--I wonder if that was a KCPQ screw up?

For further info...

My LG LST-3100A HDTV tuner shows KOMO off by 8 hours.

-Lance

Originally posted by Andy Anderson
Anyone watch 24 on Fox 13-1 last night? Some time around 15 minutes into the show, a Pepsi commercial just started playing out of the blue! I quickly switched to the analog channel (on D*), and it was fine--I wonder if that was a KCPQ screw up?

I don't know, but it only lasted for about 2 seconds on the HD channel, so it could have very well also happenedon the analog channel.

My SIRT151 shows KOMO 8 hours off also. All other channels are on time.

Originally posted by lkinley
For further info...

My LG LST-3100A HDTV tuner shows KOMO off by 8 hours.

-Lance

We are aware of the time difference. The Tiernan encoder is set for local time instead of UTC. The station techs have been concentrating of solving the satellite interference problem and just have not gotten around to resetting the time. I reminded them about it again today.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
We are aware of the time difference. The Tiernan encoder is set for local time instead of UTC. The station techs have been concentrating of solving the satellite interference problem and just have not gotten around to resetting the time. I reminded them about it again today.

Sounds like the right decision, Don. What's the latest on the interference problem? It's still as annoying as ever.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Sounds like the right decision, Don. What's the latest on the interference problem? It's still as annoying as ever.

Time permitting this afternoon, they are going to put a newly arrived second bandpass filter in tandem to steepen the skirts. I will be watching closely tonight to see what happens. If not this afternoon, they should get it in tomorrow.

Sounds good, Don.
Tomorrow night during Alias (Wed night 9pm), I'll grab a pen 'n' paper so that I can record times when/if any popping occurs throughout the hour.

Andy

Originally posted by Andy Anderson
Anyone watch 24 on Fox 13-1 last night? Some time around 15 minutes into the show, a Pepsi commercial just started playing out of the blue! I quickly switched to the analog channel (on D*), and it was fine--I wonder if that was a KCPQ screw up?

I saw that as well. Other than that was the broadcast pretty much error free? I
noticed a few major glitches during the show. However since nobody here complained about it, it was probably on my end. I was time-shifting after all.

Okay-

Watched Alias tonight. Was glitch-free in every way until:
9:44 - one pop (with video freeze-all pops are coincident with video freezes) during Alias
9:46 - one pop as it cut to commercial
9:46 - three more pops during that first juice commercial
9:47 - one pop as the KOMO news commercial came in
9:49 - one pop during commercial
9:49 - one pop during Alias
9:53 - two pops as it cut to commercial
9:57 - one pop as the KOMO news commercial came in, and one pop as it went out.

These pops were pretty similar to the previous popping experience in past weeks, but the pattern was different. It didn't follow the same one-pop-every-six-seconds timing, and it wasn't preceded by the same slight snapping/crackling. Strangely enough, it seemed more problematic during the commercial breaks, I mean, in the above list, there were only two actual pops during Alias.

At any rate, it would seem that things are improved. I hope this information is of some use, Don.

Andy

We're very happy to announce that the important negotiations between COX Television and Comcast have been successful, allowing Seattle Area viewers to enjoy the high definition telecast of the CBS Sports Programming via Comcast High Definition Service as well as over the air on KIRO-DT 39 or 7.1.

HDTV offers six times the picture clarity of traditional analog, providing the clearest picture available today. The agreement between Cox Broadcasting, Comcast and Charter Cable provides carriage of the digital signals of COX Broadcasting television stations including stations in the San Francisco Bay Area, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Seattle.

Comcast is the largest provider of cable and broadband services in the United States, serving more than 21 million cable television subscribers and more than 6 million high-speed Internet subscribers.
Thank You for your Support
KIRO TV Engineering

Originally posted by Andy Anderson
Okay-

Watched Alias tonight. Was glitch-free in every way until:
9:44 - one pop (with video freeze-all pops are coincident with video freezes) during Alias
9:46 - one pop as it cut to commercial
9:46 - three more pops during that first juice commercial
9:47 - one pop as the KOMO news commercial came in
9:49 - one pop during commercial
9:49 - one pop during Alias
9:53 - two pops as it cut to commercial
9:57 - one pop as the KOMO news commercial came in, and one pop as it went out.

These pops were pretty similar to the previous popping experience in past weeks, but the pattern was different. It didn't follow the same one-pop-every-six-seconds timing, and it wasn't preceded by the same slight snapping/crackling. Strangely enough, it seemed more problematic during the commercial breaks, I mean, in the above list, there were only two actual pops during Alias.

At any rate, it would seem that things are improved. I hope this information is of some use, Don.

Andy

Thanks for the report, Andy.

Your description follows what I saw as well. Most of the pops were related to the switch between network and local commercials. The guys are working on a way to provide a continuous bitstream during the switch.

To me, the pops were almost insignificant...barely audible...which brings out the fact that not all receivers react in the same way to interruptions in the bitstream. From some of the descriptions that I have seen on this forum, the pops seem to cause a dropout of audio and video for up to ten seconds. I don't see that at all.

For the first few minutes of "Lost", there was no center channel audio. The Master Control operator did not get the audio switched to DD5.1 immediately. That problem will go away when the automated switch gets installed.

Hi Don:
Are you guys also looking at revising the AGC so that the volumn doesn't take such a long recovery time after a "pop"?
Also, Don't forget to keep the Comcast board up to date... Thanks.

P.S. My neighbor - Ed Lackner - say's hello!

Bob

Originally posted by rverginia
Hi Don:
Are you guys also looking at revising the AGC so that the volumn doesn't take such a long recovery time after a "pop"?
Also, Don't forget to keep the Comcast board up to date... Thanks.

P.S. My neighbor - Ed Lackner - say's hello!

Bob

One of the planned changes should resolve the 'pop' issue. It is a result of the interruption of the bitstream when there is a switch between local and network, and when there is some satellite interference. A processor has been ordered that should resolve the issue.

Ed is one of the 'good guys'. I really miss the days that we worked together. We had a pretty good team going then...but time goes on and things change. Please give him my regards.

Originally posted by KIRO TV
We're very happy to announce that the important negotiations between COX Television and Comcast have been successful, allowing Seattle Area viewers to enjoy the high definition telecast of the CBS Sports Programming via Comcast High Definition Service as well as over the air on KIRO-DT 39 or 7.1.

HDTV offers six times the picture clarity of traditional analog, providing the clearest picture available today. The agreement between Cox Broadcasting, Comcast and Charter Cable provides carriage of the digital signals of COX Broadcasting television stations including stations in the San Francisco Bay Area, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Seattle.

Comcast is the largest provider of cable and broadband services in the United States, serving more than 21 million cable television subscribers and more than 6 million high-speed Internet subscribers.
Thank You for your Support
KIRO TV Engineering

Excellent!

WHEN???? :D

(BTW: this really should be in the Seattle-Comcast thread)

Hi all,

I'm in the market for a new TV and I need to decide whether or not to get a built in HD tuner. Anyway, will I be able to get OTA HD reception from West Seattle (nearest intersection is Edmunds and 45th Ave SW). I have no view of Queen Anne whatsoever, but I have a great view of Blake Island.

Originally posted by Superastro
Hi all,

I'm in the market for a new TV and I need to decide whether or not to get a built in HD tuner. Anyway, will I be able to get OTA HD reception from West Seattle (nearest intersection is Edmunds and 45th Ave SW). I have no view of Queen Anne whatsoever, but I have a great view of Blake Island.
I myself prefer to have an external tuner so that if it fails or you want to upgrade you don't have to deal with the entire set. It also allows you to choose the exact brand and features you want instead of what the set designer picked. I'm also not sure how good the quality is on built-ins. They might cut all possible corners to get the cost down. I also went with an external tuner so that I can connect recording equipment to the extra outputs. These are not always available on built-ins.

As for your reception, your location is at about 200 feet and 2/3 mile to the NE you have a 400-ft hill. This puts the direct LOS path about 100 feet above your house for the Seattle towers. This is not to say you won't get any signal, just that it will be difficult to get a reliable one since you are limited to reflected and refracted signals. Bremerton (ch13) is no problem so the Superbowl is for sure if you are worried about it. You should plan on an external antenna on a roof mast as high as possible. Since you are so close you should be able to use a minimal gain unit like the Channel Master 4221. Aimed due north it might also pick up Bremerton as well. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
One of the planned changes should resolve the 'pop' issue. It is a result of the interruption of the bitstream when there is a switch between local and network, and when there is some satellite interference. A processor has been ordered that should resolve the issue.

Don - it appears that the radar interference issue is solved to a large extent. I myself am not seeing the same pattern any more that used to repeat every 30/60 minutes. Thanks for all your efforts and those of the KOMO team. The remaining 'pop' issues seem quite minor at this point.

Originally posted by Superastro
Hi all,

I'm in the market for a new TV and I need to decide whether or not to get a built in HD tuner. Anyway, will I be able to get OTA HD reception from West Seattle (nearest intersection is Edmunds and 45th Ave SW). I have no view of Queen Anne whatsoever, but I have a great view of Blake Island.

I'd think that would severely limit your choice in sets.

For $17.95 a month(or so) you can get Comcast limited basic with an HD box. If you already have Comcast Internet, it's only $7.95 per month. Hard deal to beat, especially now that they are finally adding Kiro.

That's my backup system. I opted to go the HD PC card route so that I could record HD.

Posted by KIRO Engineering in the Seattle Comcast thread ....

For our OTA viewers I would like to warn of some down time over the weekend. We are still working to complete a full power DTV channel 39 transmitter at our QA transmitter site. If things go as planned we will only be down during the day on Saturday. There is alway the possibility that this project could run into Sunday.

Did something change in the past month or so to the OTA UPN channel? I think it is KSTW Channel 11.

I live on Mercer Island and used to get this channel with no problem. Now i get a big signal but no signal lock, ie no picture at all.

Since i didnt change anything in my apartment, i am curious if something else changed that would explain my total frustration.

-thanks

Originally posted by Purple
Did something change in the past month or so to the OTA UPN channel? I think it is KSTW Channel 11.

I live on Mercer Island and used to get this channel with no problem. Now i get a big signal but no signal lock, ie no picture at all.

Since i didnt change anything in my apartment, i am curious if something else changed that would explain my total frustration.

-thanks

They did increase their power last Fall, but I'm not aware of any recent changes.

Originally posted by Purple
Did something change in the past month or so to the OTA UPN channel? I think it is KSTW Channel 11.

There was some heavy rain in the area yesterday, about the time of Enterprise. It affected my reception. KSTW is rather a marginal signal for me. The rain didn't affect the KIRO show my wife recorded at the same time (meaning I don't want to admit recording Joan of Arcadia).

Originally posted by DanKurts
Normally, I watch this thread and don't think too much about any one persons problems having anything to do with the stations.
However, in the last few weeks, I've been getting problem calls from my installs with these two. These are people that I'm 99% certain don't have a problem with their location, antenna, or equipment. Anything's possible, but it's very unusal for me, since I know what was done and how the results looked on the scope. It's mostly people North and East of the towers, Mill Creek to Sammamish Plateau and in between. There's also other's here on the forum that seem to be having questionable reception.

If the KIRO or KSTW engineers are listening, I would be very interested to hear from you.
If you have the time, call me and I can give you more specifics.
Thank you.
Dan
206-794-3993

Dan - Any word from the KIRO engineers? Kiro just dropped off the map with my Samsung 151. All other stations are good and the funny thing is, I have a strong signal coming in for 39. For some reason, the reciever cant lock on it. Used to work fine!

Originally posted by DigiDude
Don - I just joined the forum and still have the exact problem you mention above with your Samsung 151. Suddenly strating in early January, I cannot lock on Kiro. Have you found out what gives?

I suggest that you try going through the automatic channel scanning process. That did the trick for me.

All the stations are required to install full PSIP by next month. It is possible that KIRO installed PSIP and your receiver just needs retune itself.

It's worth a try.

I thought KIRO-DT mentioned earlier this week that they would be doing more antenna work today, possibly extending into tomorrow.

Right now I am getting KIRO-DT fine. I was not watching TV earlier today, so I don't if or how long KIRO-DT was off the air.

Originally posted by DigiDude
Dan - Any word from the KIRO engineers? Kiro just dropped off the map with my Samsung 151. All other stations are good and the funny thing is, I have a strong signal coming in for 39. For some reason, the reciever cant lock on it. Used to work fine!

This was posted in the Comcast thread by KIRO Engineering:

For our OTA viewers I would like to warn of some down time over the weekend. We are still working to complete a full power DTV channel 39 transmitter at our QA transmitter site. If things go as planned we will only be down during the day on Saturday. There is alway the possibility that this project could run into Sunday.

Originally posted by Purple
Did something change in the past month or so to the OTA UPN channel? I think it is KSTW Channel 11.

I live on Mercer Island and used to get this channel with no problem. Now i get a big signal but no signal lock, ie no picture at all.

Since i didnt change anything in my apartment, i am curious if something else changed that would explain my total frustration.

-thanks
I had a similar problem with Ch 11 a while back and had to rescan. I could tune in the channel but there was no video. After the rescan it has worked fine. They must have changed something.

Originally posted by DigiDude
Dan - Any word from the KIRO engineers? Kiro just dropped off the map with my Samsung 151. All other stations are good and the funny thing is, I have a strong signal coming in for 39. For some reason, the reciever cant lock on it. Used to work fine!

DigiDude
Sorry for not responding.Finally coming up for air!
Everyone wants the Super Bowl in HD. Going to sleep for whole day Feb7 !
To answer the question, most of my customers simply did a rescan and they both came back. Not sure excatly why or what the cause was, but most likey due to the upgrades they did.
Dan

Originally posted by KIRO TV
We're very happy to announce that the important negotiations between COX Television and Comcast have been successful, allowing Seattle Area viewers to enjoy the high definition telecast of the CBS Sports Programming via Comcast High Definition Service as well as over the air on KIRO-DT 39 or 7.1.

HDTV offers six times the picture clarity of traditional analog, providing the clearest picture available today. The agreement between Cox Broadcasting, Comcast and Charter Cable provides carriage of the digital signals of COX Broadcasting television stations including stations in the San Francisco Bay Area, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Seattle.

Comcast is the largest provider of cable and broadband services in the United States, serving more than 21 million cable television subscribers and more than 6 million high-speed Internet subscribers.
Thank You for your Support
KIRO TV Engineering

Just curious, has anyone with Comcast HD started getting it yet?
Checked with several customers and no one has it...... I assume it will be 107 ?
Also, for those that have the waivers and get the East-West coast feeds, my customer that has it now gets all of them in HD ! Before, he only got NBC and CBS, no ABC or FOX, but did gat all the analog feeds. Another customer had the ABC and FOX, but not NBC and CBS ! Each was told that the other ones they weren't getting were unavailable at this time. Are there others out there now getting them all, too?
And if the DirecTV people read the Forum, why not just make it available to all? You wouldn't need to wait for the new satellites, and could make some additional revenue, probably quite a bit, as most people I've talked to would love to have it.
Dan

I live in lower Queen Anne, where should I point my antenna to get the best OTA reception?

There's no constructive purpose behind this post.

I just miss ABC News Now on 4-2. :(

Originally posted by quarque
I had a similar problem with Ch 11 a while back and had to rescan. I could tune in the channel but there was no video. After the rescan it has worked fine. They must have changed something.

Quarque, you are the MASTER!

I have been sooo frustrated with this. UPN would click on then off and i would never get a picture. It has been going on for a few weeks no matter what the weather.

I have a SIRT351 and I did a rescan. Now the picture comes in fine. Problem solved. *phew* Sometimes i weary of being an early adopter... I dont know what i would do without this website :)

Originally posted by punkzip
I live in lower Queen Anne, where should I point my antenna to get the best OTA reception?
That is a very good question indeed! 4,5,6,7 are due north, 9,11,22 are southeast and 13 is wsw. On top of that you will most likely have lots of reflections from all directions. If you are using a roof-mount antenna you might want to invest in a rotor. I doubt any antenna at a single orientation would get more than 3-4 stations. If you have no luck you might want to consider cable, now that 7 is about to be carried on Comcast.

Originally posted by Purple
Quarque, you are the MASTER!

I have been sooo frustrated with this. UPN would click on then off and i would never get a picture. It has been going on for a few weeks no matter what the weather.

I have a SIRT351 and I did a rescan. Now the picture comes in fine. Problem solved. *phew* Sometimes i weary of being an early adopter... I dont know what i would do without this website :)
If you want to hear about frustration, go read the Seattle-Comcast thread about clueless installers who have to come out 3 times because they don't understand what the "dl" message means when they plug in a new box. I have resisted going Comcast digital since I get all locals OTA, but since they are planning to convert 2-99 analog to digital soon, I may reconsider (shudder).

Originally posted by punkzip
I live in lower Queen Anne, where should I point my antenna to get the best OTA reception?

punkzip
QA is tough from any side near the bottom of the hill. I assume you mean the south side. It's possible to get all but 13, with a 4221 or a small Rat Shack yagi, but it takes some experimentation and patience. And then you could still not get them all. Sometimes you really have to mis aim the antenna to make it work. You're actually under the main transmitting signal, but you still get all kinds of signals splattering off every thing. It's possible to use a Join-Tenna coupler for 13 and a second antenna, but the coupler has a plastic housing, and that lets in a lot of signal, so you might just have to use a rotor.
Or, dare I say, just use Comcast.
QA was one of the first places around to really use a lot of cable, back in the 70's, because over air reception is so tough to get right, and digital over can be a real challenge.
Dan

My problems with KIRO usually manifest in the early AM (just before sunrise to about 9-10 am). Lots of multipath "breathing", breakups, or no lock at all. When it is the worst for KIRO, I actually DO receive KOMO (just barely). Normally KOMO doesn't have enough/good enough signal to register. In my case, I think it is due to my line of sight to the transmitters falling across Puget Sound. In the morning I think the temp of the water vs air is changing the RF path or attenuating/reinforcing signals. Maybe it gives me a good reflected signal for KOMO that is stronger than the non-existant signal I get directly (the dreaded "NW shadow"), but that same bounced signal from KIRO just cancels out the already good direct path. That of course is a non-scientific guess. If I wasn't so anal about trying to get my OTA project "perfect" and the fact that I love getting stuff for free (if you can call the bucks and time I've spen on antennae, receivers, mounting hardware, grounding etc *free*), I'd probably just give up and go Comcast (I agree with Quarque - "shudder").

Hey Dan, did you ever have any luck with that second batch of ch 18 filters?

-Mike

Originally posted by punkzip
I live in lower Queen Anne, where should I point my antenna to get the best OTA reception?

I live in upper QA. After futzing w/ several solutions, got a second CM 4228 and a jointenna. pointed the 2nd 4228 at Bremerton - I get Fox @ about 71 signal strength, which held steady all last night when watching for 2-3 hrs. last evening.

I thought I lost KIRO, but it sounds like they were doing maintenance. I was worred about that (going up on the roof is a pain!) I couldn't get a signal at all ~5pm last evening.

Anyone know if Kiro is 100% back up?

Can someone look up a location and let me know what the options are for receiving OTA broadcasts?

20th Ave S and Davis Ave S
98055

Also, there are pine trees as tall or taller than the house around the perimeter.

Thanks.

Previous post was for a friend.

Here's my story:

After over 6 months of "thinking" about it, I finally buckled and went out and got an antenna setup at my house. Watching the Super Bowl in HD might of had something to do with it.

My nearest intersection is at Edmonds Ave NE and NE 3rd ST 98056. I bought a CM 3017 and stuck it in my attic and roughly pointed it towards Seattle. Ran an RG6 cable from the CM to my wiring closet and connected it to a splitter/combiner along with my SAT feed. Then on the other end, connected another spliter/combiner to hook up the SAT and OTA to my SAT receiver. I get channels 4,5,9,13,16 really good. Channels 7 and 11 didn't even register a signal yesterday, around 5pm. Then at 1am 7 was coming in great, but still no 11. 1pm today, 7 was down to the bad end of the scale and bouncing back and forth and still no 11.

Just read about people rescanning the channels, so I'll give that a try. I also should get a compas and aim my antenna better too.

BTW, the splitter/combiner thing I used is not powered.

I am in the Seattle area (Gig Harbor) and my OTA signal is too unreliable to host a super bowl party. Just got off the phone w/ D* and they say no way, no how can they give me a feed.

I have a Sharpvision projector and SD just won't do. Has anyone had any luck getting D* to give them a one day exemption or something, anything??!!?

GOTTA have HD by Sunday, or my name is mud. Any suggestions, please help!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Wigalo
I am in the Seattle area (Gig Harbor) and my OTA signal is too unreliable to host a super bowl party. Just got off the phone w/ D* and they say no way, no how can they give me a feed.

I have a Sharpvision projector and SD just won't do. Has anyone had any luck getting D* to give them a one day exemption or something, anything??!!?

GOTTA have HD by Sunday, or my name is mud. Any suggestions, please help!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps a title or nickname would help. Mr. Mud. Dr. Mud? The "Mudster?"

Or, "move."

This is a local issue, you won't get a waiver.

Two ideas:
1) Get a local antenna specialist to see if he can help your reception.
2) Bell Expressvu, see the recent topic (linked below), but you'd have to do it tomorrow via overnight shipment, and do the install in the next 3 days.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500582

Originally posted by bknows
Can someone look up a location and let me know what the options are for receiving OTA broadcasts?

20th Ave S and Davis Ave S
98055

Also, there are pine trees as tall or taller than the house around the perimeter.

Thanks.
There is a hill 2 miles to the NW blocking direct LOS to Seattle. CH 13 looks OK but I would not invest a lot of money in equipment for one channel. You will probably get some refracted & reflected signals there. See if you can borrow a receiver and antenna to scope out the location first.

P.S. a good friend of mine used to live on Davis before he retired to Wenatchee. It would be funny if your friend bought his old house!

Originally posted by bknows


My nearest intersection is at Edmonds Ave NE and NE 3rd ST 98056. I bought a CM 3017 and stuck it in my attic and roughly pointed it towards Seattle. Ran an RG6 cable from the CM to my wiring closet and connected it to a splitter/combiner along with my SAT feed. Then on the other end, connected another spliter/combiner to hook up the SAT and OTA to my SAT receiver. I get channels 4,5,9,13,16 really good. Channels 7 and 11 didn't even register a signal yesterday, around 5pm. Then at 1am 7 was coming in great, but still no 11. 1pm today, 7 was down to the bad end of the scale and bouncing back and forth and still no 11.

Just read about people rescanning the channels, so I'll give that a try. I also should get a compas and aim my antenna better too.

BTW, the splitter/combiner thing I used is not powered.
CH 7 was upgrading equipment over the last 2-3 days and was on/off for hours at a time. They should be OK now. Usually a bouncing signal level indicates a strong reflection that is bothering the receiver. It is constantly trying to lock on one and then the other. Having your antenna in the attic does not help. I suggest you experiment with it on the roof at as many locations as you can. You may find a sweet spot that pulls in 7 and 11 (you didn't mention 22?).

Originally posted by Wigalo
I am in the Seattle area (Gig Harbor) and my OTA signal is too unreliable to host a super bowl party. Just got off the phone w/ D* and they say no way, no how can they give me a feed.

I have a Sharpvision projector and SD just won't do. Has anyone had any luck getting D* to give them a one day exemption or something, anything??!!?

GOTTA have HD by Sunday, or my name is mud. Any suggestions, please help!!!!!!!!!!!
Waivers ain't gonna happen. If you post your nearest intersection I can look to see if you are fighting hills or not. If it is just trees you might be able to find a reliable antenna location for CH 13 - it is close and very strong, not to mention very high.

Originally posted by quarque
Waivers ain't gonna happen. If you post your nearest intersection I can look to see if you are fighting hills or not. If it is just trees you might be able to find a reliable antenna location for CH 13 - it is close and very strong, not to mention very high.


My Intersection is 9th Ave Ct NW and 32nd St Ct NW

I've monkeyed around w/my antenna set up and komo and king come in and out, while I don't get Kiro or Fox at all.

Originally posted by Wigalo
My Intersection is 9th Ave Ct NW and 32nd St Ct NW

I've monkeyed around w/my antenna set up and komo and king come in and out, while I don't get Kiro or Fox at all.
Well you have no hills in the way. What antenna are you using and where is it pointed? FOX is NW while the rest are NE. If you had no trees then a decent antenna pointed due north would pull in everything. Since my niece lives due west of you 1/2 mile I know there are lots of trees in some areas around there.

Originally posted by quarque
Well you have no hills in the way. What antenna are you using and where is it pointed? FOX is NW while the rest are NE. If you had no trees then a decent antenna pointed due north would pull in everything. Since my niece lives due west of you 1/2 mile I know there are lots of trees in some areas around there.


I have the Radio Shack VU-190 with an r6 cable run. I have to admit that it is an attic install, but that's all I can stomach. It's pointed north. There are some trees; the wierd thing is that CBS used to have the strongest signal, now nothing. I've tried rescanning the channels but no luck.

Even if I do find a signal OTA, it's kind of scary for a Superbowl party. For example, the channels I do get can go from 78 to a 28. As a result, it's more annoying than anything else when watching ota HiDef for me because of the constant dropouts.

I think I'm going to end up ditching D* and go w/Comcast.

Originally posted by Spike89
My problems with KIRO usually manifest in the early AM (just before sunrise to about 9-10 am). Lots of multipath "breathing", breakups, or no lock at all. When it is the worst for KIRO, I actually DO receive KOMO (just barely). Normally KOMO doesn't have enough/good enough signal to register. In my case, I think it is due to my line of sight to the transmitters falling across Puget Sound. In the morning I think the temp of the water vs air is changing the RF path or attenuating/reinforcing signals. Maybe it gives me a good reflected signal for KOMO that is stronger than the non-existant signal I get directly (the dreaded "NW shadow"), but that same bounced signal from KIRO just cancels out the already good direct path. That of course is a non-scientific guess. If I wasn't so anal about trying to get my OTA project "perfect" and the fact that I love getting stuff for free (if you can call the bucks and time I've spen on antennae, receivers, mounting hardware, grounding etc *free*), I'd probably just give up and go Comcast (I agree with Quarque - "shudder").

Hey Dan, did you ever have any luck with that second batch of ch 18 filters?

-Mike

Mike
I gave up on the company making them. The first pair partially worked, but the trap part was set for the wrong channel. Never did get another to try. However, for giggles, ordered a Join-Tenna ch18 for a local downtown sports bar, where I have two antennas and an A/B switch. Tried it out and was pleasantly surprised! Actually had some decent attenuation. Side skirts were awefully wide, but then the only thing higher is 25 KTWB, and it didn't seem to bother it, so give it a try. I'm not a big fan of couplers or anything that comes in a plastic box, allows too much signal to leak in. But for where you are, shouldn't be a problem. Did you ever try mounting the antenna outside?
Dan

I have two questions: is KOMO dumping ABC News Now for good on 4-2?

Also, please please please dont tell me that King-DT has decided to swap their SD feed for gasp NBC Weather Plus.... we dont need another weather channel please KING!

Who runs northwest cable news that might be nice if that was multicasted.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
is KOMO dumping ABC News Now for good on 4-2?
Nope, ABC News is dumping ABC News Now

Originally posted by phunkyphresh
Who runs northwest cable news that might be nice if that was multicasted.
Northwest News is owned by the folks that KING & KONG. But, I think their contracts with cable companies prohibit on-air carriage.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Mike
I gave up on the company making them. The first pair partially worked, but the trap part was set for the wrong channel. Never did get another to try. However, for giggles, ordered a Join-Tenna ch18 for a local downtown sports bar, where I have two antennas and an A/B switch. Tried it out and was pleasantly surprised! Actually had some decent attenuation. Side skirts were awefully wide, but then the only thing higher is 25 KTWB, and it didn't seem to bother it, so give it a try. I'm not a big fan of couplers or anything that comes in a plastic box, allows too much signal to leak in. But for where you are, shouldn't be a problem. Did you ever try mounting the antenna outside?
Dan

For what it's worth... I ordered a Join-Tenna ch 18 to join my two 4221's together. Works like a dream! Using a simple coupler, I could not get 4 or 7 and 13 was shaky. After I installed the Join-Tenna, 4,5,7,9,11,13,22 are all rock solid. It took about 4 weeks to get it in, but it was well worth it.

Paul

Using a Silver Sensor + Samsung SIR-T151 I get all the stations I want except one, KCPQ (Fox). The towers are 25 mi away. Usually, it won't even register in a channel scan. Sometimes I can tune it in, but it has frequent drops and freezes.

I don't know if the problem is a weak signal, or a noisy signal. I have a 2 story house, but there are some large trees around me.

Putting more metal in the air may be the best solution, but before I try that I want to look at magical black boxes. Is it worth trying a preamp in this situation? I'll put up a bigger antenna somewhere if I need to, but I want to try the easy stuff first.

Thanks!

Originally posted by quarque
CH 7 was upgrading equipment over the last 2-3 days and was on/off for hours at a time. They should be OK now. Usually a bouncing signal level indicates a strong reflection that is bothering the receiver. It is constantly trying to lock on one and then the other. Having your antenna in the attic does not help. I suggest you experiment with it on the roof at as many locations as you can. You may find a sweet spot that pulls in 7 and 11 (you didn't mention 22?).

Checked 7 again today at around noon and 1pm and it looks good, no bouncing etc and stays in the 'good' area. I am able to pick up 22 but not 11 (stays in the bad area) but I'm not going to worry about it as I don't watch anything on 11. I'm going to stick with my attic install for now since 4,5,7,9,13,16,22 all show up with good signal.

Thanks for looking up the info for my friend.

Another request for an assessment on my location:
4630 168th CT NE, Redmond 98052

Near intersection of West Lake Sammammish Pkwy and Bel-Red Road.

I suspect the big hill with Microsoft at the top is in my way. :(

TIA!

And for a friend who might be hosting a SuperBowl party:
20226 - 84th PL NE
Bothell, WA 98011

Thanks again.

I am looking into options for getting HDTV here at my house in Federal Way Washington. I asked a friend of mine about his setup and he told me to check out this website.

I am currently a DISHNET customer and see that they offer a HDTV package with their service. It doesn't look like it contains any of the local channels however.

I was wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to get OTA HDTV here in Federal Way. If so, what type of Antenna will I need to get?

My address is:
32621 36th Ave. SW
Federal Way, WA 98023

Anyone out there have any ideas about reception quality, and antenna type that I will need to get in the local channels?

Many Thanks,
Glen

Originally posted by artshotwell
Nope, ABC News is dumping ABC News Now

lol, that didnt take long. did abc news now make it one year? I used to watch "Stump Sam" and rather enjoyed it.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
lol, that didnt take long. did abc news now make it one year? I used to watch "Stump Sam" and rather enjoyed it.


I would imagine that when the FCC ruled the sub channels would not be must carry that the business case for News Now went under water in a hurry. I hope it kills the KIRO Seatac cam too...

Originally posted by horseflesh
Using a Silver Sensor + Samsung SIR-T151 I get all the stations I want except one, KCPQ (Fox). The towers are 25 mi away. Usually, it won't even register in a channel scan. Sometimes I can tune it in, but it has frequent drops and freezes.

I don't know if the problem is a weak signal, or a noisy signal. I have a 2 story house, but there are some large trees around me.

Putting more metal in the air may be the best solution, but before I try that I want to look at magical black boxes. Is it worth trying a preamp in this situation? I'll put up a bigger antenna somewhere if I need to, but I want to try the easy stuff first.

Thanks!
There is a general misconception about preamps: "they always make things better". Actually, the main use for a preamp is to maintain signal level for very long cable runs (75' + ) since there is always some signal loss per foot of cable. They are not meant to enhance signals in general. In fact, they all add some noise to the raw signal so in many cases your receiver ends up with a worse signal/noise ratio. "Putting more metal in the air" IS the solution, as well as putting it outside. Indoors is always more problematic. So rather than wasting a lot of time and money on "easy stuff" you should just plan on putting a good antenna outside.

Originally posted by digizen
Another request for an assessment on my location:
4630 168th CT NE, Redmond 98052

Near intersection of West Lake Sammammish Pkwy and Bel-Red Road.

I suspect the big hill with Microsoft at the top is in my way. :(

TIA!
damn that Gates! you are right behind a 500-foot hill allright. looks rather doubtful.

Originally posted by digizen
And for a friend who might be hosting a SuperBowl party:
20226 - 84th PL NE
Bothell, WA 98011

Thanks again.
I'm having trouble finding that exact address. I am going to assume it is between 80th ave NE and 88th ave NE, just south of NE 203rd St. If so, there should be no problem getting CH 13 or the Seattle stations.

Originally posted by thagatman
I am looking into options for getting HDTV here at my house in Federal Way Washington. I asked a friend of mine about his setup and he told me to check out this website.

I am currently a DISHNET customer and see that they offer a HDTV package with their service. It doesn't look like it contains any of the local channels however.

I was wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to get OTA HDTV here in Federal Way. If so, what type of Antenna will I need to get?

My address is:
32621 36th Ave. SW
Federal Way, WA 98023

Anyone out there have any ideas about reception quality, and antenna type that I will need to get in the local channels?

Many Thanks,
Glen
You are on a nice 300 foot high spot with no hills to worry about. Assuming you don't have a huge stand of trees to get through you should be able to point your antenna due north (342 magnetic) and pick up everything. A Channel Master 4221(3021) should work. If you have lots of trees, consider a 4248 instead.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Mike
I gave up on the company making them. The first pair partially worked, but the trap part was set for the wrong channel. Never did get another to try. However, for giggles, ordered a Join-Tenna ch18 for a local downtown sports bar, where I have two antennas and an A/B switch. Tried it out and was pleasantly surprised! Actually had some decent attenuation. Side skirts were awefully wide, but then the only thing higher is 25 KTWB, and it didn't seem to bother it, so give it a try. I'm not a big fan of couplers or anything that comes in a plastic box, allows too much signal to leak in. But for where you are, shouldn't be a problem. Did you ever try mounting the antenna outside?
Dan

I still have the Winegard HD9085P yagi up as primary towards Seattle (and I am thinking of moving it to try to avoid some trees in the path), never got a chance to throw up another outside yagi towards Gold Mtn other than my initial testing on a ladder with a homebrew yagi. Might try putting up a Winegard HD9065P (or equiv, something that can reject well from 90 degrees off-axis) for FOX, since my join-tenna seemed to have a non-existent bandpass filter. It trapped CH18 well, but the other side let everything through instead of just 18. Maybe I got a bad one. I could send it to you if you wanted to bench-test it with a scope :D

-Mike

Originally posted by DrCrawn
I have two questions: is KOMO dumping ABC News Now for good on 4-2?

....

Here's a link to more info about ABC's decision to dump ABC News Now ....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=500443

Friend of mine in Federal Way just got a CM 4228 because of trees. Getting better reception. Prior OTA antenna was a Silver Sensor.

Originally posted by wezar
I would imagine that when the FCC ruled the sub channels would not be must carry that the business case for News Now went under water in a hurry. I hope it kills the KIRO Seatac cam too...


:confused: Hmmm,

KIRO's 7-2 coverage of the Sea-Tac cam is one of my favorite programs.

I did noticed a few times they switched to the tarmac cam which was a little more interesting watching the planes taxi in and out , then the cars coming and going. ;)

Originally posted by quarque
There is a general misconception about preamps: "they always make things better". Actually, the main use for a preamp is to maintain signal level for very long cable runs (75' + ) since there is always some signal loss per foot of cable. They are not meant to enhance signals in general...

That is exactly what I needed to know. Thanks!

Originally posted by thagatman
I am looking into options for getting HDTV here at my house in Federal Way Washington. I asked a friend of mine about his setup and he told me to check out this website.

I am currently a DISHNET customer and see that they offer a HDTV package with their service. It doesn't look like it contains any of the local channels however.

I was wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to get OTA HDTV here in Federal Way. If so, what type of Antenna will I need to get?

My address is:
32621 36th Ave. SW
Federal Way, WA 98023

Anyone out there have any ideas about reception quality, and antenna type that I will need to get in the local channels?

Many Thanks,
Glen

Glen
Welcome to the hood!
I only live about 6 blocks from you. You'll need a 4248, because of all the trees. 13 can be a problem, because of all the trees over by the Palisades and Boy Scout camp. Call me and I can give more details.
Dan
206-794-3993

Originally posted by Spike89
I still have the Winegard HD9085P yagi up as primary towards Seattle (and I am thinking of moving it to try to avoid some trees in the path), never got a chance to throw up another outside yagi towards Gold Mtn other than my initial testing on a ladder with a homebrew yagi. Might try putting up a Winegard HD9065P (or equiv, something that can reject well from 90 degrees off-axis) for FOX, since my join-tenna seemed to have a non-existent bandpass filter. It trapped CH18 well, but the other side let everything through instead of just 18. Maybe I got a bad one. I could send it to you if you wanted to bench-test it with a scope :D

-Mike

Mike
Sounds like you may have got a bad one. However, I found it only had about 15db of attenuation on either side. If your main antenna is hot, and 13 some what weak, it could be doing just fine. Unless you have a meter, it's tough to tell. You could use a RatShack adjustable attenuator, and turn it up/down and see how much signal loss shows on your "strength" indicator. If you don't see much change, then you are a little on the hot side. Not enough to bother you receiver, but more than the bandpass can handle. If that's the case, set the attenuator for max, put it between the main antenna and coupler, and then see how much main comes through. And when you test, be sure to terminate the other side. The one I used had both antennas coming in around +10 to +12db.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Mike
Sounds like you may have got a bad one. However, I found it only had about 15db of attenuation on either side. If your main antenna is hot, and 13 some what weak, it could be doing just fine. Unless you have a meter, it's tough to tell. You could use a RatShack adjustable attenuator, and turn it up/down and see how much signal loss shows on your "strength" indicator. If you don't see much change, then you are a little on the hot side. Not enough to bother you receiver, but more than the bandpass can handle. If that's the case, set the attenuator for max, put it between the main antenna and coupler, and then see how much main comes through. And when you test, be sure to terminate the other side. The one I used had both antennas coming in around +10 to +12db.
Dan

Hmmm, so you're saying pad the side that is pointed towards Seattle? What I found happening was that the "all" channels side was doing a fine job of trapping out 18, but the "18 only" side was not trapping out anything at all. When running with both antennae connected, it was multipath hell. I tried putting the rat-shat-omatic pad on the ch 18 antenna input to try to pull down all the other channels that seemed to be bleeding in, but they were so hot (especially KING) that when I finally got them low enough to stabilize the picture I had also lost ch 18. I was going to try the Winegard HD9065P for my CH18 antenna in hopes that it will be directional enough to have almost no pickup of the Seattle signals (about 90 deg off-axis) when I shoot towards Gold mtn. Maybe some chicken wire may help screen it too (oh, the wife would love that!)

Just been too busy on other more pressing projects around the house to order the antenna, get the ladder out, etc.

If the shot over the water is still causing me to have unreliable reception in the mornings consistently after I move the primary antenna, and in light of KOMO not swapping antennae until after 2006 or later, I might just have to give up and go cable (sigh).

Originally posted by DrCrawn
lol, that didnt take long. did abc news now make it one year? I used to watch "Stump Sam" and rather enjoyed it.
It started as a 90 day experiment.

Originally posted by artshotwell
It started as a 90 day experiment.

For a little insight, check out the FCC's requirements for children's programming. The cable news channels are exempt.

BTW, ABC News Now will apparently continue as a subscription available via the Web.

Originally posted by artshotwell
BTW, ABC News Now will apparently continue as a subscription available via the Web.

...where there is no requirement for three hours a week of children's programming. It's not that children's programming is bad, it's just that it doesn't fit with a news format.

By the way, some significant changes have been made that should make a difference in the audio 'pops' and picture freezes that have been giving KOMO-DT viewers a hard time. A lot of effort was put in to get this stuff in place for tonight's "Lost" and "Alias".

I will be interested to see what you guys think.

Don

Don, Frankly I didn't hear any audio pops during NYPD Blue last night.

Don--thanks to you and your team for the great work. I unfortunately probably won't be able to view Alias tonight, as I have other plans, but if I do, I'll update you.

Again, thanks a million. It's great having a venue to provide constructive feedback, and getting intelligent, meaningful responses from you and your team.

Andy

Don:

Great News!

Thanks for your continued support here. And pass our thanks on to the folks putting in the heavy effort to make it work at the station.

Do you know what's next for 4-2? I did not turn my TV on last night and I am at work now, so I am likely not current, but last I looked I saw a signal but no content.

Hello all;
I'm considering dumping my directv in favor of recieving my local channels OTA. I have a number of questions which I hope some here may be able to provide some answers to.
1) I live on 76th Ave, just off 64th (hwy 528). Is this a good area to pick up both an analog and digital signals? What should I expect? I think my elevation is about 350 to 400 feet. What antenna should I use? Would it be OK to mount it in my attic?
2) I do not yet have a HDTV ready TV. I have a fairly new Sony model which I'm not ready to give up yet. Are there set top recievers that can recieve a HDTV signal and convert the video to a format my TV can display?

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

James

Originally posted by quarque
There is a hill 2 miles to the NW blocking direct LOS to Seattle. CH 13 looks OK but I would not invest a lot of money in equipment for one channel. You will probably get some refracted & reflected signals there. See if you can borrow a receiver and antenna to scope out the location first.

P.S. a good friend of mine used to live on Davis before he retired to Wenatchee. It would be funny if your friend bought his old house!

Thanks quarque! I already have a receiver but I'll need to get an antenna. So in my situation of refracted and reflected signals, would I be better off with the CM4221 instead of the CM4248? Or just kick out for the CM4228? Thanks for all your help.

P.S. I'm pretty sure I didn't buy your friend's old house but, um, what did he do for OTA HDTV? ;)

For Immediate Release
February 2, 2005

KIRO 7 And CBS Programming To Be Carried on Cable In HDTV

SEATTLE, WA – KIRO Television announced today its agreement with Comcast and Charter Communications, Inc., allowing for the carriage of its high definition signal.
KIRO-TV began broadcasting its over the air digital signal free to the public on October 15, 1999, but due to extended negotiations the signal was not carried on Comcast or Charter Cable.
Effective February 9, 2005, KIRO HDTV will be available on Comcast channel 107, and on Charter Cable, the Eastern Washington cable system operator. Viewers with digital receivers and high-definition television sets will now be able to receive KIRO 7 in crystal clear widescreen HDTV and 5.1 Dolby digital movie quality sound.
HDTV offers six times the picture clarity of traditional analog, providing the clearest picture available today.
“This is the result of complex negotiations with our cable partners due to multiple location issues across the country, not just the Seattle-Tacoma market,” said KIRO-TV vice president and general manager John Woodin. “We appreciate the patience of the cable subscribers who have missed KIRO’s digital signal for the past several months.”
KIRO-TV broadcasts popular CBS programming and weekly hit shows in HDTV such as CSI, CSI: NY, CSI: Miami, Without A Trace and Everybody Loves Raymond as well as the Emmy award-winning daytime drama The Young and The Restless. Viewers can also look forward to KIRO HDTV broadcasts of the Grammy Awards, the NCAA Final Four and NCAA Championship games.

Originally posted by quarque
I'm having trouble finding that exact address. I am going to assume it is between 80th ave NE and 88th ave NE, just south of NE 203rd St. If so, there should be no problem getting CH 13 or the Seattle stations. Thanks quarque! That's the spot alright. Just out of curiosity:
1. What's his elevation?
2. So he should be able to get away with an indoor antenna like the silver sensor?

Originally posted by marcusc
Thanks quarque! I already have a receiver but I'll need to get an antenna. So in my situation of refracted and reflected signals, would I be better off with the CM4221 instead of the CM4248? Or just kick out for the CM4228? Thanks for all your help.

P.S. I'm pretty sure I didn't buy your friend's old house but, um, what did he do for OTA HDTV? ;)
Antenna selection is tricky in those situations. If it were me I'd get either a 4221 or the Rat Shack 15-2160 since they are easy on returns. It may take considerable experimentation and patience and a few antenna swaps.

My friend was not (and still is not) "HDTV compliant", so I don't know about OTA in that area. He doesn't want to spend a lot of retirement money on somethng he uses very llittle. Just for fun, we are going to scope out some hills around Wenatchee and Ephrata this spring to see what DT we can get. He is a ham operator and we have 4 antennas to try with my receiver and a couple of 12V inverters to make it all mobile. I'm going to bring my LCD monitor (with its built-in 1/2 inch speakers!). Should be fun. All I remember about his old house was how incredibly steep the driveway was going down to the garage. You almost always got some tire sqeal getting out on the street.

Originally posted by digizen
Thanks quarque! That's the spot alright. Just out of curiosity:
1. What's his elevation?
2. So he should be able to get away with an indoor antenna like the silver sensor?
His elevation is about 210 feet. An indoor antenna might work but make sure he can return it for an outdoor unit if it doesn't. It really depends on house the house is constructed and whether there are any buildings or trees in the way.

you can get a silver sensor @ fry's in Renton usually. I've had good luck returning stuff there in the past.

Originally posted by Whidbey
Hello all;
I'm considering dumping my directv in favor of recieving my local channels OTA. I have a number of questions which I hope some here may be able to provide some answers to.
1) I live on 76th Ave, just off 64th (hwy 528). Is this a good area to pick up both an analog and digital signals? What should I expect? I think my elevation is about 350 to 400 feet. What antenna should I use? Would it be OK to mount it in my attic?
2) I do not yet have a HDTV ready TV. I have a fairly new Sony model which I'm not ready to give up yet. Are there set top recievers that can recieve a HDTV signal and convert the video to a format my TV can display?

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

James
Your elevation is about 300 feet and there are no hills blocking your way. You can certainly try an attic mount but be prepared to go rooftop. Most receivers have more than one type of output. If your TV has component inputs, that would be the best, then S-video, then composite. My Samsung receiver can simultaneously output all forms of video (except RGB when using component). So investigate the back of your TV carefully and then verify your prospective receiver has compatible outputs. The trend has been toward digital signal interfaces on newer HD sets, but almost all accept component signals. I bought my son a 27" JVC SD set last year that has component inputs and 625 lines of resolution. It ain't HD but it sure looks good when using those component inputs.

Originally posted by quarque
You are on a nice 300 foot high spot with no hills to worry about. Assuming you don't have a huge stand of trees to get through you should be able to point your antenna due north (342 magnetic) and pick up everything. A Channel Master 4221(3021) should work. If you have lots of trees, consider a 4248 instead.


Great! Sounds like I'll be ok then. I'll let you know how things go.

Thanks,
Glen

Originally posted by KIRO TV
For Immediate Release
February 2, 2005

KIRO 7 And CBS Programming To Be Carried on Cable In HDTV

SEATTLE, WA – KIRO Television announced today its agreement with Comcast and Charter Communications, Inc., allowing for the carriage of its high definition signal.
KIRO-TV began broadcasting its over the air digital signal free to the public on October 15, 1999, but due to extended negotiations the signal was not carried on Comcast or Charter Cable.
Effective February 9, 2005, KIRO HDTV will be available on Comcast channel 107, and on Charter Cable, the Eastern Washington cable system operator. Viewers with digital receivers and high-definition television sets will now be able to receive KIRO 7 in crystal clear widescreen HDTV and 5.1 Dolby digital movie quality sound.
HDTV offers six times the picture clarity of traditional analog, providing the clearest picture available today.
“This is the result of complex negotiations with our cable partners due to multiple location issues across the country, not just the Seattle-Tacoma market,” said KIRO-TV vice president and general manager John Woodin. “We appreciate the patience of the cable subscribers who have missed KIRO’s digital signal for the past several months.”
KIRO-TV broadcasts popular CBS programming and weekly hit shows in HDTV such as CSI, CSI: NY, CSI: Miami, Without A Trace and Everybody Loves Raymond as well as the Emmy award-winning daytime drama The Young and The Restless. Viewers can also look forward to KIRO HDTV broadcasts of the Grammy Awards, the NCAA Final Four and NCAA Championship games.

Great!
I have some happy customers, now. One thing I'm curious about, when will you broadcast the local news in 16:9 ?
Thanks
Dan

Hello all;
I'm considering dumping my directv in favor of recieving my local channels OTA. I have a number of questions which I hope some here may be able to provide some answers to.
1) I live on 76th Ave, just off 64th (hwy 528). Is this a good area to pick up both an analog and digital signals? What should I expect? I think my elevation is about 350 to 400 feet. What antenna should I use? Would it be OK to mount it in my attic?
2) I do not yet have a HDTV ready TV. I have a fairly new Sony model which I'm not ready to give up yet. Are there set top recievers that can recieve a HDTV signal and convert the video to a format my TV can display?

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

James


Your elevation is about 300 feet and there are no hills blocking your way. You can certainly try an attic mount but be prepared to go rooftop. Most receivers have more than one type of output. If your TV has component inputs, that would be the best, then S-video, then composite. My Samsung receiver can simultaneously output all forms of video (except RGB when using component). So investigate the back of your TV carefully and then verify your prospective receiver has compatible outputs. The trend has been toward digital signal interfaces on newer HD sets, but almost all accept component signals. I bought my son a 27" JVC SD set last year that has component inputs and 625 lines of resolution. It ain't HD but it sure looks good when using those component inputs.


Thanks for the reply! My Sony TV has component and s-video inputs so I think it should do. I use the component inputs for my DVD player and the picture is great. Probably will use S-video for reciever.
James

For everyone else who's missing ABC News Now: not only is it still available by subscription with RealOne, but it's also bundled with Comcast HSI.

http://www.comcast.net/
Click "NEWS" on the "CHANNELS" navigation bar (left)
Click "ABC NEWS NOW" under "LIVE VIDEO" (right)

If Don Wilkinson's listening, my wish for 4-2: a looped replay of the most recent KOMO 4 News, perhaps with a replay or two a day from KATU thrown in for good measure.

On another note, I find NBC Weather Plus on 5-2 to be about as useful as ShopNBC on 51-1.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Glen
Welcome to the hood!
I only live about 6 blocks from you. You'll need a 4248, because of all the trees. 13 can be a problem, because of all the trees over by the Palisades and Boy Scout camp. Call me and I can give more details.
Dan
206-794-3993

Hi Dan,

Thanks alot for replying. You're only 6 blocks away? Too cool. I need to get myself rolling for the SuperBowl this weekend. I'll try to give you a call tomorrow after work. Once again, thanks!

Glen

Hey KOMO and KIRO. I have a great suggestion for your second HD channel that should not take up a lot of bandwidth. Test paterns! Even if you only had them on from 2-3 in the morning, I'd stay up to use them.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Don:

Great News!

Thanks for your continued support here. And pass our thanks on to the folks putting in the heavy effort to make it work at the station.

Do you know what's next for 4-2? I did not turn my TV on last night and I am at work now, so I am likely not current, but last I looked I saw a signal but no content.

I will pass your thanks along to the guys who make it work...Kelly, Rick, Chris, Lou, Paul, Jabran, John B, John F and Don C.

I have not heard of any future plans for 4-2. My assumption (not always safe) is that it will lie dormant until a viable business plan surfaces.

The President's State of the Union kind of blew any real good observation of the signal last night. I did not see any sign of audio 'pops'. The audio levels were consistent without major changes. However, I observed two sequences of instant 'freezes' about 25 minutes apart during "Lost". Looks like we will need to continue working on that.

As a heads up, the guys are installing a new Trivini PSIP generator that will be online in the next few days. If KOMO-DT disappears, a rescan should bring it back.

Don

I like the idea of a test pattern, too.

quarque, please check one more location for me for possible obstructions:
NE Serpentine PL and NE 176th PL
Shoreline 98155

Most interested in KCPQ and Queen Anne towers. Also the elevation please.

TIA for your help!

Originally posted by digizen
quarque, please check one more location for me for possible obstructions:
NE Serpentine PL and NE 176th PL
Shoreline 98155

Most interested in KCPQ and Queen Anne towers. Also the elevation please.

TIA for your help!

Elevation is about 500 feet. No problems with hills for any towers. I know that area somewhat - almost bought a house there in '82. There are a fair number of tall trees in parts of that area which could give some trouble.

I just checked the time on KOMO-DT and it is now correct! So Don, the trick was to put in GMT instead of PST? Another triumph for the KOMO team.

Originally posted by quarque
I just checked the time on KOMO-DT and it is now correct! So Don, the trick was to put in GMT instead of PST? Another triumph for the KOMO team.

That should indicate that the new Trivini PSIP generator is in place. They were working on the installation when I was in the studio on Wednesday. They said that they would fix the time on the new box.

Also in the works is an interface to the station automation that will allow computer controlled switching to the HDTV feed without operator intervention.

I have been pleased so far with the audio processor. I have not seen any indication of audio 'pops'. This thing puts out a continuous audio bitstream regardless of any interruptions in the incoming audio.

Now, on to the interference...

Don

I can almost get every HD channel available at my home in the Canyon Park area of Bothell, except 4-1 KOMO. Why?

Aren't 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 all broadcast from the Queen Anne towers? How come I can get the others, but not KOMO?

Originally posted by dbutner
I can almost get every HD channel available at my home in the Canyon Park area of Bothell, except 4-1 KOMO. Why?

Aren't 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 all broadcast from the Queen Anne towers? How come I can get the others, but not KOMO?

In order for your receiver to decode the digital signal, it must be relatively free of multipath interference (reflections). It sometimes takes moving the antenna several inches or more, up, down, sideways, rotated...to reduce the reflections enough to allow receptions. It is not at all uncommon to receive most stations and have one that doesn't show up.

Use a good outside UHF antenna and move it around to find a good location where all the stations come in.

KING, KOMO and KIRO towers are spaced about 800 feet apart on Queen Anne Hill.

I think I brought this up before, but didn't see an answer doing a quick search. I'm finally starting to purchase HD components again (returned everything in the fall because the TV didn't work out), and need to buy an antenna to compliment my Dish Network setup. I need to put something on the roof, the CM4228 in the Attic didn't cut it, and I need it to look nice to keep my wife happy. Therefore I am planning on getting the Square Shooter. I live in the Mill Creek area at about 500' of elevation and according to the plot that quarque did back in the fall.

My question is, should I go for the 1100 series or the 2200 (amplified) series? I'm thinking the 2200 series since it's only $20.00 more. Am I correct in my thinking?

Thanks

Before you order the square shooter you might work it out with your wife to try the 4228 outside just to verify reception. After it is up she might agree to just leave it alone. I have a 4248 but I doubt the 4228 any more visible. You can even paint them to reduce the visibility. (I don't know what paint but I have read where it is done with no ill effects).


If you get the square shooter I would probably go with the amplified version If I were you. I use a amplifier with my 4248 and it helps me by about 10% even though I am only about 12 miles from the towers.

When I had a different HD setup in the fall I bought the 4228 and hooked it up in my Attic (rather the trusses in my garage, same height as attic) and I was able to get all the stations but with dropouts enough to be annoying. This was unamplified. Based on that I'm assuming the Squarshooter will work fine outsite, higher, on the roof. I'm also assuming that the amplifier won't hurt things. Not worried about the minor increase in cost. Are my assumptions correct?

Rob - the SqS is low gain to begin with, so the amplifier is probably a good idea and will help with a long cable run. Other than upgrading to "Wife 2.0" :D that is probably your best bet.

Originally posted by dbutner
I can almost get every HD channel available at my home in the Canyon Park area of Bothell, except 4-1 KOMO. Why?

Aren't 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 all broadcast from the Queen Anne towers? How come I can get the others, but not KOMO?

I actually have two antenna's in my setup, 1 smaller indoor RCA rabbit ear setup for KOMO and KING, and a Terk rooftop for KIRO, KTWB, KSTW, etc...

The rooftop has no chance of getting KOMO and KING, and the indoor has no chance of getting any of the other... go figure :)

Originally posted by quarque
Rob - the SqS is low gain to begin with, so the amplifier is probably a good idea and will help with a long cable run. Other than upgrading to "Wife 2.0" :D that is probably your best bet.

You are right Quarque. The upgrade to wife 2.0 could be very costly.....

Is the square shooter more directional than the 4228 or 4248? I was using a Chamnelmaster 7775 until it quit a month or so ago. I went back to my noisey rat shack preamp. The 7775 got me twice the increase of the rat shack unit.

Gonna have to buy another 7775 on of these days.

Where can you buy the Silver Sensor locally? My mom has a new set, and although she'll probably go with a Comcast DVR box, she wants to try an antenna. She lives on the hill above Factoria (clear line of sight to everything), and doesn't want anything outside, so I'm thinking this is the best choice. If someone has a better suggestion for an inside antenna, I'd like to hear that too.

Fry's in Renton has the Silver Sensor. Sears is said to carry it as well.

Thanks. I'd searched Outpost but couldn't find it. It's not listed under antennas apparently, and they don't call it the Silver Sensor, but instead the model number. I found it at Sears.com also, but they indicate it's out of stock.

Given my luck finding stuff in stock at Fry's, I think I'll try one of the odd Internet sites that Google or Frogle comes up with (they are also about half price).

FWIW, I did find a stack of them at Fry's last time. They had them in 2 locations - one, where they keep the coax supplies and antennas and the other place was in the TV section. Fry's has a decent return policy (at least I think they do) so that's one thing in favor of buying local.

Looks like I'll have to try them. Just about everyplace else is out of stock. If they are, it might not be their fault this time. ;)

quarque, can you check the following address for me:
1011 Lake Crest Drive
Snohomish, WA 98290
Live on a ridge north of Blackman's lake....don't have an antenna yet...
my neighbor gets great uhf (analog) using rabbit ears.......however....

Thanks!

Originally posted by wezar
You are right Quarque. The upgrade to wife 2.0 could be very costly.....

Is the square shooter more directional than the 4228 or 4248? I was using a Chamnelmaster 7775 until it quit a month or so ago. I went back to my noisey rat shack preamp. The 7775 got me twice the increase of the rat shack unit.

Gonna have to buy another 7775 on of these days.
The SqS is not very directional. The gain plot is very broad and flat, much like the double-bowtie designs. What makes it any good at all is the great front-back ratio due to its internal screen ( a PC board with etched crosshatch pattern). The other PC board inside has a pair of spiral tracks that terminate at the center. The whole thing must cost about $10 to make. Well, $15 for the amplified verision.

Originally posted by kato1011
quarque, can you check the following address for me:
1011 Lake Crest Drive
Snohomish, WA 98290
Live on a ridge north of Blackman's lake....don't have an antenna yet...
my neighbor gets great uhf (analog) using rabbit ears.......however....

Thanks!
Your elevation is about 200 feet and 6 miles SW you have a 550 foot hill blocking direct line of sight to the Seattle towers. You will get some signal but it is hard to tell how reliable it might be. CH13 in Bremerton looks good.
Put a good antenna on the roof as high up as you can. Digital is much trickier than analog, but having great analog is encouraging. You might want to get a site survey by a pro with a bunch of antennas to try.

Originally posted by Karyk
... If someone has a better suggestion for an inside antenna, I'd like to hear that too.
The SS is among the best but Rat Shack has a couple that have produced good results for some. The overpriced 15-1880 for $50 looks a little better than the old reliable double-bowtie 930-0998 for $15. I have one of the latter and it works quite well for the money. It does require a modification to install a balun where the twin-lead comes out. You drill out the rivets and use a couple 4-40 screws & nuts to hold the balun leads. Definitely for the adventurous type. Probably not returnable after that. :D Not sure if it has enough gain to go beyond 25 miles.

Oh and let's not forget the tiny bowtie 15-234 for $3.99 !!!

Originally posted by dbutner
I can almost get every HD channel available at my home in the Canyon Park area of Bothell, except 4-1 KOMO. Why?

Aren't 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 all broadcast from the Queen Anne towers? How come I can get the others, but not KOMO?

dbutner
It's a combination of several things.
Each channel, or frequency, has a specific wavelength measurement. The higher the frequency, the shorter the length. Ch4 VHF, regular TV, is about 5ft, ch13 vhf, about 18", ch18 FOX digital about 10", and ch48 KING digital about 7". As the signal bounces around and through various obstructions, you will get vastly different results. Throw in different antenna properties, cabling dents and dings, the stations transmitting pattern, your receivers sensitivity to various channels, and the fact that the HD signal is 6mhz wide and needs to be fairly even in signal strength across it, and it's a wonder it works at all!!
One of the things that never ceases to surprise me is how much variation there is in actual received signals from one location on a roof to the next, only 8" away. Even when it's line of sight!
Have you tried different locations on the house? It may take some time and patience, but won't cost you anything to try and it might just get lock in.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
I think I brought this up before, but didn't see an answer doing a quick search. I'm finally starting to purchase HD components again (returned everything in the fall because the TV didn't work out), and need to buy an antenna to compliment my Dish Network setup. I need to put something on the roof, the CM4228 in the Attic didn't cut it, and I need it to look nice to keep my wife happy. Therefore I am planning on getting the Square Shooter. I live in the Mill Creek area at about 500' of elevation and according to the plot that quarque did back in the fall.

My question is, should I go for the 1100 series or the 2200 (amplified) series? I'm thinking the 2200 series since it's only $20.00 more. Am I correct in my thinking?

Thanks

robglasser
For what it's worth, I've had a Square Shooter, non amplified, in my van since last summer, and have found it to be pretty poor. A RatShack $20 yagi or the cheap bow tie would work better. It doesn't come close to the 4221 in overall performance. Once in a while it will do better on one channel, but all the rest will be worse. It's fairly wide in reception path, but only about half as much as the 4221. It's very non linear on gain, compared to the 4221, 4248, or MXU59 Antennacraft. When it was tried in line of sight situations, where it should work great, it was very uneven across each channels bandwidth. I tried it all over, from Olympia to Marysville and Monroe to Enumscratch, and at Kingston. Tested probably 50 times, at least. It's going in the garage as a write off. Had to try it though, you never know.
If you have to use one, don't use their preamp. Go for the 7775, far better.
A yagi usually works better for me in Mill Creek, but I have seen some 4221's do okay, too. The gain increase on the 4228 versus the 4221 is very little, almost nothing usually (sorry guys, the meter doesn't lie), and it's a little better at pulling in channels from multiple directions, so you might try a 4221. It doesn't have to be up high, in fact, I found you can get better signal by going under some of the big trees out there, sometimes. It can be mounted to the side of the house, too, a few inches away. The thing that will work best is to simply try as many locations as possible. Spent two hours on one job out there, on the north side of the golf course, before the sweet spot was found. Oh, if you want to paint it, you can hit everything except the bow-ties and their connecting rods.
Dan

Originally posted by wezar
You are right Quarque. The upgrade to wife 2.0 could be very costly.....

Is the square shooter more directional than the 4228 or 4248? I was using a Chamnelmaster 7775 until it quit a month or so ago. I went back to my noisey rat shack preamp. The 7775 got me twice the increase of the rat shack unit.

Gonna have to buy another 7775 on of these days.

wezar
The shooter has about a 25 to 30 degree look, right or left of center. The 4228 is wider, about 45 degrees, and 4248 is about 10 degrees from center. The 4248 can pick out a signal, or be mis aimed to null multipath far better than bow tie types. It can make or break a fussy signal in as little as 2 degrees, that's directional. The shooter is not too swift, see above post.

For the7775, be sure to do a good job of sealing the connections, and providing drip-loops for the cables as needed, so rain water doesn't run into the amp. Double check your connections, too, as sometimes a tiny hair-like piece cable shield can be left inside the fitting to short it out, specially when damp, and cause it to fry the preamp or power supply.
Dan

Originally posted by Karyk
Where can you buy the Silver Sensor locally? My mom has a new set, and although she'll probably go with a Comcast DVR box, she wants to try an antenna. She lives on the hill above Factoria (clear line of sight to everything), and doesn't want anything outside, so I'm thinking this is the best choice. If someone has a better suggestion for an inside antenna, I'd like to hear that too.

Karyk
Be sure to place it somewhere in the room where it won't get blocked by people walking around, and preferably near a west facing window. You may want to put an adjustable attenuator on it, too. Signal levels can be pretty strong up there, I've found, and can actually overload some tuners making it look like a weak reception problem. RatShack has them for about $10, I think. You can always take it back if you don't need it.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Karyk
Be sure to place it somewhere in the room where it won't get blocked by people walking around, and preferably near a west facing window. You may want to put an adjustable attenuator on it, too. Signal levels can be pretty strong up there, I've found, and can actually overload some tuners making it look like a weak reception problem. RatShack has them for about $10, I think. You can always take it back if you don't need it.
Dan

With this particular location, it would be hard to not place it as described, but thanks for the suggestion on the attenuator. I have one sitting around that I'll take up there.

And Quarque--thank you--I'll pass those suggestions along (and modifying is not out of the question).

Originally posted by Karyk
Where can you buy the Silver Sensor locally? My mom has a new set, and although she'll probably go with a Comcast DVR box, she wants to try an antenna. She lives on the hill above Factoria (clear line of sight to everything), and doesn't want anything outside, so I'm thinking this is the best choice. If someone has a better suggestion for an inside antenna, I'd like to hear that too.


Karyk, I too recommend the Silver Sensor as we use it indoors next to the TV aimed towards west facing windows on Mercer Island. We too have good line of sight and get all the major digital channels and excellent HD reception and PQ. Its location is low in the room due to some constraints but walking in front of it has not caused a problem that I have noticed, but that may be due to our location with strong OTA reception. Should work well for your Mother's location.

We got our first one at sears.com and bought a second one in a Sears store but that was not in the Seattle area. Have not looked lately to see if it is in stock in any of the local Sears stores. Walmart has carried a very similar if not identical Phillips version of the SS so that might be another place to look.

While the focus is on Silver Sensors...

I bought my Silver Sensor a long time ago, when it was still a "do it yourself import", and only manufactured by Antiference in the UK. Is there any difference between the Antiference UK model and the Zenith US model?

I assume that the Antiference model has elements optimised for UK UHF frequencies (471.25-861.25 MHz). I wondered if the Zenith model has elements re-optimised for US "core" UHF frequencies (471.25-697.25 MHz)?

RobGlasser,

If you don't mind spending a few extra bucks for his time, I highly recommend hiring DanKurts to come out and set up your OTA antenna for you. He can figure out the best combination of antenna type and location that will generate maximum HD signal with minimum wife complaints.

I had similar wife concerns, and I am already on Wife 2.0 so I didn't want to cause any problems!

I hired Dan to set me up for OTA HD a couple months ago and I am very happy. He was able to mount a 4221 on the side of my house that is practically invisible, all channels come in strong and wife is happy!

quarque, would you check this address for me on San Juan Island.

217 far horizons road
friday harbor wa 98250

I live on a knoll with Victoria, BC to the SSW and clear 90 degrees to the NW; trees to the SSE of point townsend. Thanks very much.

Originally posted by DanKurts
wezar
The shooter has about a 25 to 30 degree look, right or left of center. The 4228 is wider, about 45 degrees, and 4248 is about 10 degrees from center. The 4248 can pick out a signal, or be mis aimed to null multipath far better than bow tie types. It can make or break a fussy signal in as little as 2 degrees, that's directional. The shooter is not too swift, see above post.

For the7775, be sure to do a good job of sealing the connections, and providing drip-loops for the cables as needed, so rain water doesn't run into the amp. Double check your connections, too, as sometimes a tiny hair-like piece cable shield can be left inside the fitting to short it out, specially when damp, and cause it to fry the preamp or power supply.
Dan


Thanks Dan. I guess the 4248 is probably my best bet here in Lake Hills (Bellevue). I have used the Radio Shack Yagi and it worked fine - best signal in the 80s with the radio shack preamp. But I got the upgrade bug and went with the MXU59 Antennacraft for a year or so with about a 5% increase in signal. Then I got a good deal on a lightly used Channelmaster 4248 and 7775 preamp that gave me the solid 90% plus signals for most all stations with bit of tweaking with the rotator.

On my 7775 I did have good drip loops and even weather proof boots
but The amp has rust where the plate is screwed up into the housing. I will have to take it apart and see whats up with it. The powersupply still got warm so I dont think it is shorted out. Hopefully the preamp section just has corrosion I can clean up. Worst case I buy another 7775 later this year. The Radio Shack 15-1170 preamp still helps but only about half of what the 7775 provided.

I guess I won't be trying a Squaredhooter anytime soon.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
...
I had similar wife concerns, and I am already on Wife 2.0 so I didn't want to cause any problems!
...

I had trouble with Wife 2.0 freezing up on me and went with Wife 2.5!
:confused: huh? It's a patch until 3.0 is installed. :eek: Those service packs are murder...

Originally posted by fisherman
quarque, would you check this address for me on San Juan Island.

217 far horizons road
friday harbor wa 98250

I live on a knoll with Victoria, BC to the SSW and clear 90 degrees to the NW; trees to the SSE of point townsend. Thanks very much.
That location looks good but it is 70 miles from the Seattle towers AND it is NW of the towers where signal levels drop off due to the antenna design and location on the tower. But it is at 300 feet elevation with a clear shot down the Sound. Many people in the Antennas thread talk about using the 91XG from antennasdirect.com when going beyond 60 miles and getting good results. It's < $100 with shipping. There are several others from other mfg. > $100 also - check out the Antennas thread at the top of this forum. I would also try to find people within a 20-mile radius who pull in Seattle DT stations (AVS or elsewhere).

I don't have info on Canadian towers but if you need a plot just give me lat/lon of the tower. My program can't search addresses in Canada. As long as you don't need to go due north you should be OK.

Originally posted by fisherman
quarque, would you check this address for me on San Juan Island.

217 far horizons road
friday harbor wa 98250

I live on a knoll with Victoria, BC to the SSW and clear 90 degrees to the NW; trees to the SSE of point townsend. Thanks very much.
Good luck. Until last summer, I lived off Gibralter Road on Fidalgo Island. My reception was intermittent. Some days I got all the Seattle stations, other days nothing. Most days were somewhere in between. I got some stations. I think the water played games with the signal. Never a problem with KCPQ, which is west of Bremerton. I'm now in town in Anacortes and no chance, I'm afraid, of getting Seattle DT.

I tried a Blake jbx21 antenna as well as one of the more popular brands; can't think of the brand now.

Quarque: now I'm curious. Could you check 1486 Entner Lane. The newer address is 14798 Entner, 98221. My house was about 80 above the water.

Originally posted by pastiche
While the focus is on Silver Sensors...

I bought my Silver Sensor a long time ago, when it was still a "do it yourself import", and only manufactured by Antiference in the UK. Is there any difference between the Antiference UK model and the Zenith US model?

I assume that the Antiference model has elements optimised for UK UHF frequencies (471.25-861.25 MHz). I wondered if the Zenith model has elements re-optimised for US "core" UHF frequencies (471.25-697.25 MHz)?
I've never seen the Antiference model up close but from the pictures of it I think the elements taper down to a shorter length to cover the higher frequencies. It should work in the US just as well.

What was the "do it yourself" part of it? I found the Antiference website and they still sell the SS100 for 16.50 Pounds.

Originally posted by artshotwell
Good luck. Until last summer, I lived off Gibralter Road on Fidalgo Island. My reception was intermittent. Some days I got all the Seattle stations, other days nothing. Most days were somewhere in between. I got some stations. I think the water played games with the signal. Never a problem with KCPQ, which is west of Bremerton. I'm now in town in Anacortes and no chance, I'm afraid, of getting Seattle DT.

I tried a Blake jbx21 antenna as well as one of the more popular brands; can't think of the brand now.

Quarque: now I'm curious. Could you check 1486 Entner Lane. The newer address is 14798 Entner, 98221. My house was about 80 above the water.
Yep, 80 feet is correct right near Lone Buck Rd. The biggest problem is the 500 foot hump on Whidbey about 6 miles away. That is blocking LOS to Seattle. CH13 looks OK. Anacortes is definitely in a deep shadow.

DX over water can be rather tricky. That is why I suggested searching out others in the area to see what their experience has been. I do recall someone in the San Juans posting a long while back that they got most of the Seattle stations reliably. That was over a year ago and I don't recall the specifics. Antenna selection and placement makes all the difference.

Originally posted by quarque
Yep, 80 feet is correct right near Lone Buck Rd. The biggest problem is the 500 foot hump on Whidbey about 6 miles away. That is blocking LOS to Seattle. CH13 looks OK. So this is your "summer house"? Anacortes is definitely in a deep shadow.

DX over water can be rather tricky. That is why I suggested searching out others in the area to see what their experience has been. I do recall someone in the San Juans posting a long while back that they got most of the Seattle stations reliably. That was over a year ago and I don't recall the specifics. Antenna selection and placement makes all the difference.
A big hump, huh... Cable service didn't arrive on Entner until after I moved into town. I'm now on Comcast and getting most Seattle stations without having the picture blank out during signal fade. Art

It is rediculous for the Sat companies to just assume that everyone within 50 miles of a tower can pick up the locals OTA. But I see DirecTV advertising 2500 new channels coming in 2005 which someone in another thread assumed that means DT locals will be available. That will make a lot of people very happy.

Originally posted by quarque
I've never seen the Antiference model up close but from the pictures of it I think the elements taper down to a shorter length to cover the higher frequencies. It should work in the US just as well.

What was the "do it yourself" part of it? I found the Antiference website and they still sell the SS100 for 16.50 Pounds.

It does work very well here. I'd just wondered if one that was tailored to US frequencies would work even better.

By "do it yourself," I just meant that I had to track down a vendor that'd ship here and then use a PAL-style to F-style coax adapter. (And yes, I know that makes me sound extraordinarily lazy!) :)

Originally posted by pastiche
It does work very well here. I'd just wondered if one that was tailored to US frequencies would work even better.

Theoretically yes, but I doubt you could measure the difference except at very specific frequencies with some expensive equipment. The length of the elements are each chosen to cover a range of frequencies so at one particular frequency the UK model might actually be better than the US model and vice versa.

Originally posted by wezar
Thanks Dan. I guess the 4248 is probably my best bet here in Lake Hills (Bellevue). I have used the Radio Shack Yagi and it worked fine - best signal in the 80s with the radio shack preamp. But I got the upgrade bug and went with the MXU59 Antennacraft for a year or so with about a 5% increase in signal. Then I got a good deal on a lightly used Channelmaster 4248 and 7775 preamp that gave me the solid 90% plus signals for most all stations with bit of tweaking with the rotator.

On my 7775 I did have good drip loops and even weather proof boots
but The amp has rust where the plate is screwed up into the housing. I will have to take it apart and see whats up with it. The powersupply still got warm so I dont think it is shorted out. Hopefully the preamp section just has corrosion I can clean up. Worst case I buy another 7775 later this year. The Radio Shack 15-1170 preamp still helps but only about half of what the 7775 provided.

I guess I won't be trying a Squaredhooter anytime soon.

wezar
Rust on 7775 is unusual. They do get a lightly corroded aluminum look after years outside, but not like bare aluminum or with any pitting. Methinks it lived very near saltwater before visiting you. That's the only place around here where I see heavy corrosion. Look up into the f-fitting and see if the insides look shiny or rusty. I think I've had only one fail in the last 6 years I've been using them.
As far as your experience in Lake Hills, that's what I usually see there, too. You would think the MXU59 would do better, but it just doesn't when trees are around. In the clear, it can work better than the 4248, which is where I use it sometimes. The numbers you see on your readings aren't really telling you have more signal, just better signal to noise ratio. You might have more signal amount, but once you get above a certain level, more won't do you any good for picture quality. If you were getting 70 to 90, and it was steady with the 7775 working, quit, you're there.
And, for the record, I tried the Blake X style yagi in several locations around east Bellevue, among other places, and it didn't do as well as the 4248 or MXU59. I have not tried the 91XG, which looks like an updated version. Should probably order one for grins.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
It is rediculous for the Sat companies to just assume that everyone within 50 miles of a tower can pick up the locals OTA. But I see DirecTV advertising 2500 new channels coming in 2005 which someone in another thread assumed that means DT locals will be available. That will make a lot of people very happy.

They are doing HD locals, but Seattle isn't in the first group. My guess was the 2500 new channels was for HD locals, but that does seem like quite a high number.

Oh, and I'm not positive, but I believe you'll need a new dish and receiver. Not sure how happy that's going to make a lot of people (especially if the angle of the sat. is blocked).

I just saw the DirecTV spot last night and I'd swear they said 1500 HD locals.

Since it sounds like the SquareShooter is not going to work, I'm curious is anyone knows where I can buy a 4248 locally and how much they usually run? I tried calling Frys but they say they don't stock that model. Based on my conversation withi DanKurts that sounds like my best option.

Originally posted by DanKurts
robglasser
For what it's worth, I've had a Square Shooter, non amplified, in my van since last summer, and have found it to be pretty poor. A RatShack $20 yagi or the cheap bow tie would work better. It doesn't come close to the 4221 in overall performance. Once in a while it will do better on one channel, but all the rest will be worse. It's fairly wide in reception path, but only about half as much as the 4221. It's very non linear on gain, compared to the 4221, 4248, or MXU59 Antennacraft. When it was tried in line of sight situations, where it should work great, it was very uneven across each channels bandwidth. I tried it all over, from Olympia to Marysville and Monroe to Enumscratch, and at Kingston. Tested probably 50 times, at least. It's going in the garage as a write off. Had to try it though, you never know.
If you have to use one, don't use their preamp. Go for the 7775, far better.
A yagi usually works better for me in Mill Creek, but I have seen some 4221's do okay, too. The gain increase on the 4228 versus the 4221 is very little, almost nothing usually (sorry guys, the meter doesn't lie), and it's a little better at pulling in channels from multiple directions, so you might try a 4221. It doesn't have to be up high, in fact, I found you can get better signal by going under some of the big trees out there, sometimes. It can be mounted to the side of the house, too, a few inches away. The thing that will work best is to simply try as many locations as possible. Spent two hours on one job out there, on the north side of the golf course, before the sweet spot was found. Oh, if you want to paint it, you can hit everything except the bow-ties and their connecting rods.
Dan

Originally posted by Karyk
They are doing HD locals, but Seattle isn't in the first group. My guess was the 2500 new channels was for HD locals, but that does seem like quite a high number.

Oh, and I'm not positive, but I believe you'll need a new dish and receiver. Not sure how happy that's going to make a lot of people (especially if the angle of the sat. is blocked).

Yes they are going to Mpeg 4 for the New satellites going up this year and I believe next. All Hd boxes will need to be swapped out for Hd locals for Mpeg4 capablity. Lots of speculation on how much cost will be passed on to the customer.

I find it interesting that they say the top 12 markets will be served this year when they skip US. Seattle and go to the 13th market.

Oh well I guess I get to use my existing stuff a while longer.

There was some discussion (speculation) in another thread, and the reason I recall that seemed to make the most sense was that they would give us a different sat.--that our Western location made a different one better for us.

I was thinking the same thing but I had not read any facts concerning the deployment of the two new satellites.


Thanks

That seems weird - LA and SF are going up in the first 12.

I think the problem is a combination of how far west we are and how far north we are. This puts the satellite too close to the horizon.

I saw many posts in this thread refering to the Super Bowl and that it was to be broadcast on FOX in HD OTA. However, it did not show up on titanTV as being in HD, and none of the shows on FOX show up as HD. Am I missing something here? I know their sending DT but I didn't think any of it was HD. I haven't even bothered to watch the channel as I just watch an SD TV for all SD only broadcasts. I'm not going to waste my projector on SD.

Originally posted by robglasser
Since it sounds like the SquareShooter is not going to work, I'm curious is anyone knows where I can buy a 4248 locally and how much they usually run? I tried calling Frys but they say they don't stock that model. Based on my conversation withi DanKurts that sounds like my best option.

Rob
Pringles in Everett has them, 1-800-468-3033, but, if you want a survey, wait until we see what you need. I always bring one, along with others, for surveys, so we'll find out if that works or not.
Dan

Originally posted by Newk2
I saw many posts in this thread refering to the Super Bowl and that it was to be broadcast on FOX in HD OTA. However, it did not show up on titanTV as being in HD, and none of the shows on FOX show up as HD. Am I missing something here? I know their sending DT but I didn't think any of it was HD. I haven't even bothered to watch the channel as I just watch an SD TV for all SD only broadcasts. I'm not going to waste my projector on SD.

TitanTV is not really that accurate as to what's in HD. For example, they don't list KOMO news as being in HD, when it's far more professional (or less incompetent--take your pick) than the KING news that they do list as being in HD. King only seems to have one 16:9 camera, and doesn't realize that a 16:9 camera has a wider view area (and also forgets to turn the broadcast to 16:9 when they are using it about 25% of the time).

I've seen sports events on other networks listed as being HD that weren't, etc.

Edit: I just checked and they do not list KOMO news as being HD. I'd reported it several times, and even got a thank you response back once.

Speaking of KING news... I watched the 11pm show last night (Thurs) and apparently they forgot to switch the video away to the first report from the field. We watched the two anchors as they fiddled with papers and watched their monitors. I checked the analog channel and everything was normal there. Then when the anchors went to the second field report, digital was back to normal, too. But, it was interesting watching the anchors completely unaware they were on the air.

KING has only one HD camera in the studio. I think they used to have two.

Originally posted by Newk2
I saw many posts in this thread refering to the Super Bowl and that it was to be broadcast on FOX in HD OTA. However, it did not show up on titanTV as being in HD, and none of the shows on FOX show up as HD. Am I missing something here? I know their sending DT but I didn't think any of it was HD. I haven't even bothered to watch the channel as I just watch an SD TV for all SD only broadcasts. I'm not going to waste my projector on SD.

Oh, the Superbowl was definitely HD! And a few other things on FOX are, too. TitanTV is hardly authoritative.

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
Oh, the Superbowl was definitely HD!
-Lance
Indeed it was - I watched it OTA. KCPQ also carried the FOX NFL games this past season in HD. I don't know off hand what other HD programs they carry since I don't watch FOX that much.

Originally posted by quarque
Theoretically yes, but I doubt you could measure the difference except at very specific frequencies with some expensive equipment. The length of the elements are each chosen to cover a range of frequencies so at one particular frequency the UK model might actually be better than the US model and vice versa.

Thanks for the info, as always. I'll leave well-enough alone. :-D

Originally posted by Newk2
I know their sending DT but I didn't think any of it was HD. I haven't even bothered to watch the channel as I just watch an SD TV for all SD only broadcasts. I'm not going to waste my projector on SD.

Prior to Fall 2004, Fox did 16:9 programming, but only at 480p. Their 720p service came online with the new season in most markets. The video quality on the only two Fox HD shows I regularly watch -- Arrested Development and 24 -- has been excellent.

FWIW, all HD on Fox identifies itself with a "FOX WIDESCREEN high definition digital television" bug at the bottom of the screen for the first few seconds of a program, so if you see that on the SD broadcast, you might wanna fire up the projector. :)

Originally posted by quarque
Indeed it was - I watched it OTA. KCPQ also carried the FOX NFL games this past season in HD. I don't know off hand what other HD programs they carry since I don't watch FOX that much.
Me neither I only watch cultural programming. But I understand they have American Idol in HD.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
...where there is no requirement for three hours a week of children's programming. It's not that children's programming is bad, it's just that it doesn't fit with a news format.

By the way, some significant changes have been made that should make a difference in the audio 'pops' and picture freezes that have been giving KOMO-DT viewers a hard time. A lot of effort was put in to get this stuff in place for tonight's "Lost" and "Alias".

I will be interested to see what you guys think.

Don


Don, Lost was perfect for me on the 9th.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Don, Lost was perfect for me on the 9th.

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. I am very encouraged so far.

Don

The talk lately about sub channels, with 4.2 no longer on has got me remembering my C-band days when I had eastern - mountain and pacific to choose from. That was real viewer choice. I understand the locals wanting us viewing their commercials and putting an end to such choice. But wouldn't that be a great use for sub channels ? I believe the stations get their program feeds earlier than they are sent anyway so why not put one time zone on 4.1 and the other on 4.2 and both would have the local commercials. That would give me back that choice.

Well, I guess I should have known. I haven't even tried Fox as there is so little I care about there. I have noticed that Titan wasn't very accurate about 9 and sometimes 4, 5, and 7 but I never dreamed that they would simply show no HD programming for a station. I thought Fox was still showing all 480 in this area.

Don Wilkinson and KIROTV,

Is there some influence you could have at your respective stations to get them to treat the digital channels differently than the analog channels.

For example, I think it was KOMO that preempted a Stanley Cup game for the Monorail fire, and stayed on coverage of a bit of smoke longer than any other channel. Having such coverage (which I refer to as news for people easily entertained) only on the analog signal, with maybe a ticker on the digital channel would allow everyone to watch smoke if they wanted, or regular programming if they are not so easily entertained.

Another example, which one station did during the NCAA tournament last year was showing one game on analog and an HD game on digital. That would be great if KIRO could do that for football where the football game scheduled to be shown locally was not HD (although I'm hoping all NFL games will be HD next year, but it might has some implication in other sports). KOMO could perhaps do that for NCAA football.

It just seems nuts that while you have two signals, to send the same thing out on them 100% of the time.

Karyk,

$$$ :eek:

Originally posted by Newk2
Karyk,

$$$ :eek:

Newk2,

???

Assuming you think my proposal would cost money, I doubt it. Judging from posts above (or maybe in the Seattle Comcast thread) KING apparently does just that accidently during their news! :D

Originally posted by Karyk
Don Wilkinson and KIROTV,

For example, I think it was KOMO that preempted a Stanley Cup game for the Monorail fire, and stayed on coverage of a bit of smoke longer than any other channel. Having such coverage (which I refer to as news for people easily entertained) only on the analog signal, with maybe a ticker on the digital channel would allow everyone to watch smoke if they wanted, or regular programming if they are not so easily entertained.



Right on! I am also very tired of "Breaking News" interrupting programming even on SD. Watching helicopter footage of a car accident scene, police chase or building fire is not IMHO worth interrupting network programming. I know the news department thinks that EVERYONE wants to know (or has to know) about this latest earth-shattering story but I bet 90% of viewers could care less. Unless the earth is breaking out of orbit or colliding with an asteroid, leave the programming alone! Please!

This breaking news coverage is part of the reason I like Tivo type devices. When such stories dominate the news coverage (or some other event) at least you can FF through them. Although it is somewhat entertaining to listen to the news anchors try to say the same thing over and over again in different ways. :D

"???"

I'm thinking it is a financial decision.

Originally posted by Newk2
"???"

I'm thinking it is a financial decision.

Possibly, but I sort of doubt it. I don't think it requires any more dollars out (except maybe showing a different game), but instead just a bit more work by the employees. But presumably, in the "breaking news" situation, it would be cheapest for them to do nothing and just show what's scheduled.

Originally posted by Karyk
Don Wilkinson and KIROTV,

Is there some influence you could have at your respective stations to get them to treat the digital channels differently than the analog channels.

For example, I think it was KOMO that preempted a Stanley Cup game for the Monorail fire, and stayed on coverage of a bit of smoke longer than any other channel. Having such coverage (which I refer to as news for people easily entertained) only on the analog signal, with maybe a ticker on the digital channel would allow everyone to watch smoke if they wanted, or regular programming if they are not so easily entertained.

Another example, which one station did during the NCAA tournament last year was showing one game on analog and an HD game on digital. That would be great if KIRO could do that for football where the football game scheduled to be shown locally was not HD (although I'm hoping all NFL games will be HD next year, but it might has some implication in other sports). KOMO could perhaps do that for NCAA football.

It just seems nuts that while you have two signals, to send the same thing out on them 100% of the time.

The simple answer is that, no, I don't have any influence on programming decisions. My interest is as a retired broadcast engineer.

However, I can offer some insights about separate programming on supplemental channels...

It is not as easy as it may appear on the surface. As to separating local news inserts, a whole second program channel would be required to do the kind of production that people have come to expect, with graphics, special effects, etc. that have become the norm. By doing a cut-in on both channels, no second program channel is required.

Television stations live and die by their local news ratings. If the viewers perceive that a station is on top of important news stories, they are more inclined to view on a regular basis. Obviously, not everyone agrees with that, but that's the way it works.

Some have suggested running KATU (ABC Portland) or the east coast network feed on 4-2. Broadcasters are constrained by such things as copyrights, royalties, FCC regulations, etc. that have to be dealt with before broadcasting any programs. The FCC has restrictions on broadcast programming that the cable channels are exempt from. All of these things affect programmer's decisions.

On a slightly different subject, KOMO uses the 720p digital standard. Some years ago, I traveled to New York to ask the ABC engineers to demonstrate to me why they were promoting 720p over 1080i. After watching a demonstration of motion artifacts created by interlaced scanning, I came away committed to progressive scanning...the same system that is used in your computer monitors and plasma/LCD displays.
Watch a basketball game in both standards and you will see the difference. I am still convinced that progressive scanning is the right choice.

Don

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why they couldn't do an entirely different station's broadcast, but I didn't realize it was that difficult to send two different things on the analog and digital. It seems like they do a lot of that anyway.

Also, in the breaking news situation, they don't tend to have local commercials, so losing them on the HD feed wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe what I need is a huge antenna so I can pick up the Portland HD channels! :D

I gotta add to Don's post that there's way more equipment in a tv station than you'd ever guess. They'd have to double much of that just to move a second feed out the door. Most stations just aren't equipped for that.

As for a different station's broadcast. Co-owned KCPQ and KTWB for several months carried each other's digital signal. It was a great idea since the two towers are in different parts of the Sound. But, ultimately, they realized there were both network and syndicator restrictions on that.

Not to mention that each station's legal ID was going out over the other station's signal.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson


On a slightly different subject, KOMO uses the 720p digital standard. Some years ago, I traveled to New York to ask the ABC engineers to demonstrate to me why they were promoting 720p over 1080i. After watching a demonstration of motion artifacts created by interlaced scanning, I came away committed to progressive scanning...the same system that is used in your computer monitors and plasma/LCD displays.
Watch a basketball game in both standards and you will see the difference. I am still convinced that progressive scanning is the right choice.

Don
I've watched football in both 720p and 1080i and I can't really see a general difference (on average). The differences seem to be more related to the particular broadcast. I actually prefer 1080i because it looks better on my set (not 720p native). But I understand in theory why 720p should have fewer artifacts. Wouldn't 1080p be nice...

I live in Renton, on the ridge overlooking Tukwila. Quarque plotted my location and found that I am just behind Beacon Hill (to the NW and a couple hundred feet lower). I have been using an RCA 'hoop' antenna and have been able to pick up 4,5,7,11,13 and 18, but not all at one time. I have to move the antenna around my living room with a 12' coax extension to achieve signals that vary from one to three 'ticks' on my Samsung T151 [-- I am guessing this means 10-30% since I have never been able to get a full signal].

I am thinking a medium multi-directional antenna might work and would like to get some feedback. Most recommendations are for Yagi/directional antennae, but I am hoping to also pick up non-Seattle stations [e.g. KCTB] and do not want to have to adjust the antenna, get a rotator or get multiple antennas if I don't have to [ my range is from Seattle to the NNW to Tacoma to the SW]. My thinking is that signals at, say, three to five 'ticks' [up to 50%] might be enough.

I would like to get some advice from those who have had similar experiences or knowledge and would appreciate comments and suggestions.

Thanks,

Glyn

I live in south central Mercer Island (5418 91st Ave SE) and have a small (green) Wineguard 9016 antenna hooked up to my hd-200 directv receivers for the ota network channels. When I first installed everything, I got ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX all pretty well, with the antenna installed in the attic. Six mos or so later, I started getting a lot of drop out, so I put it on a mast outside and it didn't help. I think I need a better antenna. Any recommendations?

Peter

Originally posted by quarque
I've watched football in both 720p and 1080i and I can't really see a general difference (on average). The differences seem to be more related to the particular broadcast. I actually prefer 1080i because it looks better on my set (not 720p native). But I understand in theory why 720p should have fewer artifacts. Wouldn't 1080p be nice...

I prefer 1080i, too... I really thought 720p was going to look better for the same reasons Don cited, but I guess the extra horizontal resolution wins out. My plasma is closer to the ~1440 horiz. pixels on 1080 broadcasts than 1280 on 720p. No 1080i broadcasts are even close to 1920 pixels, so I'm told. But the ~1440 downscaled to 1366 pixels across my Panny plasma looks better than 1280 scaled up. Football on CBS looks better than Monday Night Football to my eyes, and I've never noticed interlace artifacts.

Now, on my 34" Sony WEGA tube, I can't tell the difference at all.

-Lance

Originally posted by artshotwell
I gotta add to Don's post that there's way more equipment in a tv station than you'd ever guess. They'd have to double much of that just to move a second feed out the door. Most stations just aren't equipped for that..

Well, at least one of them is. As I mentioned, whoever broadcast the NCAA tournament last year had different games on analog and digital. I wanted to compare the color settings through my Tivo and MyHD card, and discovered different games!

I was sure surprised, when I tuned into the Grammy's on KIRO, that they weren't in HD. I watched the first number in their stretched SD on the digital channel, then dumped out. I was even more surprised when I checked back in at 10pm to discover they were in HD by then. I'd have watched if I'd known that KIRO would eventually get it on in HD. Sorry I missed it.

Originally posted by pmandt
I live in south central Mercer Island (5418 91st Ave SE) and have a small (green) Wineguard 9016 antenna hooked up to my hd-200 directv receivers for the ota network channels. When I first installed everything, I got ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX all pretty well, with the antenna installed in the attic. Six mos or so later, I started getting a lot of drop out, so I put it on a mast outside and it didn't help. I think I need a better antenna. Any recommendations?

Peter
You have several problems. TREES, a hot signal location, TREES, a receiver that's easily overloaded with signal, and, uhh, TREES !
When you were working ok with it in the attic, I would venture to say the signal was pretty ugly, meter-wise, and barely hanging on. Wet roofs, or who knows what in the area, made it go over the edge. When you went outside, which is a good thing, the amount of signal went way up. I would suggest using an attenuator. RatShack has an adjustable one, cheap. Set it for maximum, and the slowly dial it back until you loose it, then put it back just a little. Also, direction and location of antenna will make a big difference, as you're trying to thread your way through the trees. Patience and your existing antenna should get the channels back. Try locating it near the spot where it was in the attic.
Dan

Originally posted by TPring98055
I live in Renton, on the ridge overlooking Tukwila. Quarque plotted my location and found that I am just behind Beacon Hill (to the NW and a couple hundred feet lower). I have been using an RCA 'hoop' antenna and have been able to pick up 4,5,7,11,13 and 18, but not all at one time. I have to move the antenna around my living room with a 12' coax extension to achieve signals that vary from one to three 'ticks' on my Samsung T151 [-- I am guessing this means 10-30% since I have never been able to get a full signal].

I am thinking a medium multi-directional antenna might work and would like to get some feedback. Most recommendations are for Yagi/directional antennae, but I am hoping to also pick up non-Seattle stations [e.g. KCTB] and do not want to have to adjust the antenna, get a rotator or get multiple antennas if I don't have to [ my range is from Seattle to the NNW to Tacoma to the SW]. My thinking is that signals at, say, three to five 'ticks' [up to 50%] might be enough.

I would like to get some advice from those who have had similar experiences or knowledge and would appreciate comments and suggestions.

Thanks,

Glyn

Glyn
Since you are getting a fair amount of signal, I would suggest the 4221. It's wide enough to pull in Seattle and FOX, with some tweaking, but you will need to mount it outside and as clear of obstructions as possible. For KBTC in Tacoma, forget it. Its going to be to far off axis, and is not easy to get unless you're dead on line of sight. They only transmit with about 6KW, or less than 1% of the power the other stations have. The only other stations are to the east. You would need another antenna for those, or just use the rabbit ears and a switch, if it will work.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
I've watched football in both 720p and 1080i and I can't really see a general difference (on average). The differences seem to be more related to the particular broadcast. I actually prefer 1080i because it looks better on my set (not 720p native). But I understand in theory why 720p should have fewer artifacts. Wouldn't 1080p be nice...

quarque
I'll second that!
Saw a Samsung demo unit setup with the latest TI DLP chip at the CES show, a 70" doing 1080p, WOW ! Hands down the best picture I've ever seen from a DLP, and looked just as good as their 80" and 101" plasma's they had running at 1080i, except it had more depth to the picture. Action scenes were free of any artifacts I could see, but then it was about 10ft away. TI was actually putting on the show, and said that LG and one other were using the same chip. There was also a Runco plasma that was doing 1080p, but the demo program it was showing was pretty dark, so I couldn't say how sharp it was, but blacks and shadow detail were outstanding. I've also seen some big projectors running 1080p, locally, and it looks almost film like. Guess I better buy another Lotto ticket.....
Dan

Originally posted by artshotwell
I was sure surprised, when I tuned into the Grammy's on KIRO, that they weren't in HD. I watched the first number in their stretched SD on the digital channel, then dumped out. I was even more surprised when I checked back in at 10pm to discover they were in HD by then. I'd have watched if I'd known that KIRO would eventually get it on in HD. Sorry I missed it.

The Grammys were in HD last year, so their not being this year would likely be a technical glitch. Such things often disappear at a commercial break (I haven't watched my recording yet, so I don't know when it came on in HD).

I tuned in at 8:00PM, saw it was in SD and said "Oh crap" and turned it off. I admit it, I'm an HDTV snob.

Then I got to thinking about it, hit the forums, and found people on the HDTV Programming forum raving about the great sound and picture.

It switched to HD at about 8:20 I believe.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Saw a Samsung demo unit setup with the latest TI DLP chip at the CES show, a 70" doing 1080p, WOW ! Hands down the best picture I've ever seen from a DLP, and looked just as good as their 80" and 101" plasma's they had running at 1080i, except it had more depth to the picture.
Hey Dan I was at CES too - too bad we didn't get to meet.

Also, Sharp was showing 1080p Aquos LCD sets that were astounding. 1080p is amazing. Maybe if you win the lottery you could buy us all one.

Unfortunately it will be a LONG time before anything is broadcast in 1080p. Anyone think the DLP's looked a little "soft" compared to plasma?

After spending a small fortune on a plasma and a Dish Network HD DVR I decided I had to at least try and do my antenna purchase and installation myself. So, I ended up buying a 4228 from Fry's yesterday and got it mounted on the roof and did some fine tuning. I think I found the best location and position for it, but I have a couple minor issues. I'm thinking that an amplifier will fix it but I wanted to get some feedback before I spend another 60 bucks or so. Here is what I get with the antenna:

4, 5, 7 = All, full signal, 120 - 125 on the Dish 921 signal meter
9 = Spotty, can't a lock no matter what, bounces between 0 - 70-
11 = Spotty, can't get a lock unless I rotate the antenna more east which kills 13. With it at a point where I can get 13 it's about 50 - 70 on the meter.
13 = At my current location I can lock it at about 80 - 90 (worried I'll have dropouts though)
22 = Locked it, about 100 if I remember correctly.
28 = Appears to be solid, but didn't really investigate the signal strength.

My questions are, will an amplifier help me with 9, 11, and 13? If so what does everyone recommend? I'm guessing the Channel Master 7775 since it's mentioned so much.

Do you think a taller mast would make a difference? Right now it's about 5 feet off my roof.

Rob:

I don't recall where you are located. Before trying an amplifier, you may want to try an attenuator instead. Digital signal overload is more of an issue than weak signals when it comes to multipath problems (ghosts on analog TV).

If you are not far from Queen Anne and Capitol Hills, then the attenuator might be of help.

I am not familiar with the "signal meter" numbers on a Dish receiver, but they actually represent signal quality rather than signal strength on most HDTV OTA receivers. If you have multipath issues, that signal quality number goes down accordingly.

Channels 9 & 11 both broadcast from Capitol Hill, right next to Channel 22. Depending on your location, it would seem like you should be able to get all three if you get one, but antenna position makes a big difference for UHF reception, even moving just a few inches in some cases.

I would definitely try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-678

It looks like they have recently raised the price to $9.99. I thought before it was more like $7.99. They must have figured out that HD enthusiasts are their biggest market for this device.

IMHO, I would not worry much about the signal quality number for Channel 13 if you seem to be able to lock it in okay. Coming from Gold Mountain near Bremerton, you might be starting with a weaker signal, but if you don't have multipath problems, it may work just fine. That's the case at my house--I get Channel 13 20 points lower than the Seattle stations, but I have never had dropout problems. Of course, YMMV.

Good luck

Rob - the bouncing signal levels are a sign of strong multipath. There is no magic bullet. Dave's suggestion of an attenuator is worth trying since it is cheap and easy. Your next steps are: moving your antenna, trying different antennas. Every antenna works differently in each situation. That's why installers carry a truck full of them. Start with the cheap ones (CM 4221, RS 15-2160) and work your way up. If you don't feel like hassling with it you can always hire Dan. Remember that it is not necessary to have a '100' signal just as long as it is steady.

Originally posted by quarque
Unfortunately it will be a LONG time before anything is broadcast in 1080p. Anyone think the DLP's looked a little "soft" compared to plasma?

quarque
The Samsung, LG and one other I saw, forget which one there were so many, all had the TI chip, and were doing 1080p. They simply took 1080i and doubled the sweep, and most likely did some tweaking on the picture. The results were VERY sharp, not soft at all, at least as good as a plasma, but the color detail and depth of the picture were much better. My only minor gripe was that the whites are still a hair yellowish. Not much, but just enough to notice if you've watched a good plasma or CRT. But then I'm pretty fussy. My buddy, an AV salesman at Magnolia for over over 20 years, was also very impressed, and agreed, best of show. I would like to have gotten closer but the area was busy with people coming out of the demo and more going in, and they shut it off.
That's the good thing about the upcoming sets. If they can do a progressive 1080p from 1080i, it's going to look awfully good, now, and we won't have to wait for broadcast increases. Granted, it's not a 1080p broadcast, but it's so close, I don't think anyone is going to really notice. The picture was simply stunning. If you've ever tweaked an IF strip or color demod section, then you know what the difference looks like when the high frequencies roll off and the picture looks flat, versus a good wide and flat response on the scope, and the sweep markers are right on the curve.
Or, like an old VHS tape compared to a good DVD.
As they say, one picture is worth.....
I really hope you folks get a chance to see one.
Dan

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Rob:

I don't recall where you are located. Before trying an amplifier, you may want to try an attenuator instead. Digital signal overload is more of an issue than weak signals when it comes to multipath problems (ghosts on analog TV).


I'm north of Lynnwood, between Lynnwood and Mill Creek. According to antennaweb I'm 16.8 Miles from the Queen Anne Towers, and 34.0 Miles from the KCPQ tower. I'm using a CM4228 (Couldn't find a 4221 or 4248 in stock in the area on Monday). Do you think an Attenuator would make any difference this far away? Oh, and I guess my KCPQ signal wasn't as strong as I thought. I wasn't able to tune it in last night.

Rob:

I don't have enough knowledge or experience to provide a reasonable guess. Perhaps Dan K. or quarque will chime in here.

An attenuator is usually a help in a close-in situation, where reflected signals are strong enough to clobber the main signal until the attenuator reduces them enough to be ignored, without dropping the direct signal below the receiver threshold.

I agree with your thoughts on the attenuator probably not making a difference for you. But Dan or quarque or someone who lives near you may know otherwise.

Originally posted by Budget_HT

An attenuator is usually a help in a close-in situation, where reflected signals are strong enough to clobber the main signal until the attenuator reduces them enough to be ignored, without dropping the direct signal below the receiver threshold.

So if you have line-of-sight through a small stand of deciduous trees, would the leaves contribute to the multipath?

I believe that when the trees leaf out you would have more multipath. I do. I use a Channelmaster 4248 with a rotator so I can tweak my signal as needed.

Originally posted by stevelee
So if you have line-of-sight through a small stand of deciduous trees, would the leaves contribute to the multipath?
No. Multipath is a strong *reflection* off a hard surface, such as a building. Leaves and branches can absorb signal (thus cutting overall level) but they won't reflect any significant amount. If they did, nobody would get anything around here.

Originally posted by robglasser
I'm north of Lynnwood, between Lynnwood and Mill Creek. According to antennaweb I'm 16.8 Miles from the Queen Anne Towers, and 34.0 Miles from the KCPQ tower. I'm using a CM4228 (Couldn't find a 4221 or 4248 in stock in the area on Monday). Do you think an Attenuator would make any difference this far away? Oh, and I guess my KCPQ signal wasn't as strong as I thought. I wasn't able to tune it in last night.
As I posted earlier, the attenuator is worth a try. It is cheap and easy. Dave's comment about it reducing the "bad" signals below the receiver's threshold is correct. It will work as long as they are below the "main" signal you are after. There is no way to tell without trying it.

Dan - thanks for all the good CES news. The reason I mentioned the soft DLP question was that was my observation in an AV showroom with a friend. We both thought the DLP products looked like they had "greased the lens" if you know what I mean. Those were all 720p units and fed with the same signal as the plasmas next door. It is good to hear the newer generation stuff does not appear softer than plasma. I like the DLP concept from a techical standpoint. One final question: would the upconverted 1080p suffer during high-speed image motion? Did you see any fast moving images?

Originally posted by quarque
No. Multipath is a strong *reflection* off a hard surface, such as a building. Leaves and branches can absorb signal (thus cutting overall level) but they won't reflect any significant amount. If they did, nobody would get anything around here.

If I recall correctly, the doppler radar (sort of redundant, isn't it) for rain can pick up the motion of trees in high winds.

Originally posted by Karyk
If I recall correctly, the doppler radar (sort of redundant, isn't it) for rain can pick up the motion of trees in high winds.
I don't see what is redundant about Doppler Radar (?). Ordinary Radar does not use the Doppler principle at all. It is strictly a plot of what signal is reflected from where. The Doppler radar is special in that it looks at the frequency shift of the returned signal and can thus plot the velocity of the object by how much shift there was. Most Radar operates at much different frequencies than UHF and so, yes, you can get a stand of trees to register as going 60 MPH (a famous poke at police radar in the early days).

Originally posted by quarque
Dan - thanks for all the good CES news. The reason I mentioned the soft DLP question was that was my observation in an AV showroom with a friend. We both thought the DLP products looked like they had "greased the lens" if you know what I mean. Those were all 720p units and fed with the same signal as the plasmas next door. It is good to hear the newer generation stuff does not appear softer than plasma. I like the DLP concept from a techical standpoint. One final question: would the upconverted 1080p suffer during high-speed image motion? Did you see any fast moving images?

quarque
I agree, most DLP's and LCD projector types are soft. That's why I was very surprised when I found out it was a DLP. There were moving images, and I couldn't see any artifacts at the distance we were away from it. Even if there were, at 1080p the sweep is so fast you wouldn't notice much. What I really want you to see is the depth of color and picture, almost 3D like. You will be impressed. I was, and I've seen a lot of very impressive installs.
Supposedly, these sets will be on the market later this year. Go on the web and you can read about the TI chip in detail.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
After spending a small fortune on a plasma and a Dish Network HD DVR I decided I had to at least try and do my antenna purchase and installation myself. So, I ended up buying a 4228 from Fry's yesterday and got it mounted on the roof and did some fine tuning. I think I found the best location and position for it, but I have a couple minor issues. I'm thinking that an amplifier will fix it but I wanted to get some feedback before I spend another 60 bucks or so. Here is what I get with the antenna:

4, 5, 7 = All, full signal, 120 - 125 on the Dish 921 signal meter
9 = Spotty, can't a lock no matter what, bounces between 0 - 70-
11 = Spotty, can't get a lock unless I rotate the antenna more east which kills 13. With it at a point where I can get 13 it's about 50 - 70 on the meter.
13 = At my current location I can lock it at about 80 - 90 (worried I'll have dropouts though)
22 = Locked it, about 100 if I remember correctly.
28 = Appears to be solid, but didn't really investigate the signal strength.

My questions are, will an amplifier help me with 9, 11, and 13? If so what does everyone recommend? I'm guessing the Channel Master 7775 since it's mentioned so much.

Do you think a taller mast would make a difference? Right now it's about 5 feet off my roof.

Rob
Since you're getting such good numbers on both QA and Capitol hill, that indicates levels are pretty good. An amp most likely will not help. Location is going to be the key. Height might help, but not always. I wouldn't go over 10ft. Sometimes you can get more signal by going under the tree canopy. The 4228 is quite wide in reception, so if it's fussy about aiming at certain channels, then you're most likely fighting the trees. Location differences of only 8 to 10" in ANY direction can make or break a particular channel. Patience is what's needed, now, just keep trying.
Dan