What is the best approach for finding the best antenna location ? Would I just check signal strength for each location and each channel [I have an inexpensive SIR 151 and that will get extremely time-consuming]???

Also, I have seen a few posts about over-saturation, and because of my low-cost STB should I be concerned? What symptons appear? What would cause this to happen?

Thank you,

Glyn

Dan, thanks for your response, the CM 4221 looks promising for me. Do you know where I can pick it up locally [to give it a try]?


Glyn

First of all, I've browsed and searched this thread and found much of what I need in terms of info. The Word Document FAQ put together (link in lkinley's sig) is awesome.

This is my first post on AVSforum, so please give me a little slack, I hope I've researched enough to not cross the etiquette lines with stupid questions. I only have three questions, but they are fairly technical, so there's some background info included.

Here's the background info...
I'm expecting delivery of a 32" LCD HD Television Monitor soon. I am currently subscribed to Comcast analog only/basic cable as part of my condominium group subscription. I live in Greenwood near the intersection of Greenwood Ave N and N 80th St. on the third floor of a 4 story building. Windows face east and south. We have a slight rise/hill behind the building to the west. We can see the top of the Olympics from the roof of the building, but not the sound.

I would like to start getting basic HD content, not premium, to go with my new TV. I am also NOT currently interested in purchasing ANY additional HD content/box rental/package from Comcast unless absolutely necessary. I generally detest cable boxes. :D

As for OTA reception capabilities, I am planning on using a PCI HD Tuner card in a Windows MCE 2005 computer. I've got the ATI HDWonder (ATSC Tuner only- .ati.com/products/hdtvwonder/index.html)on order. This card includes a small OTA antenna, which will likely be mounted near the TV, inside. It *might* go out on the east-facing deck (I also have south exposure). I won't be putting it on the roof. I understand the FCC has rules protecting my ability to do so if I wish, but I'd rather not for now due to HOA issues.

A second possibility is for me to purchase the Dvico Fusion3 PCI card .dvico.com/products_mul_hd3.html, which includes ATSC AND QAM HD reception, and hook it up to the analog cable coax feed (or an antenna).

Questions
1. Based on my location and exposure, what are my chances of receiving decent quality signals from a small set-top antenna such as the one that comes with the HD Wonder? I'm highly interested in receiving Fox HD, but understand that's broadcast from the peninsula, which may mean my eastern exposure just won't cut it. Will the signals in my area be strong enough? I understand answers to this question will be highly speculative, but that's ok. The reason I ask for at least a gut-check answer is part of the next question.

2. From browsing the FAQ, it *sounds like* Comcast in Seattle is currently broadcasting HD stations over the analog cable in an unencrypted QAM transport. Is this correct? If so, I should be able to receive standard HD using the Dvico card connected to the regular coax cable (not premium content, obviously) and receive all of the standard channels without re-orienting my antenna or missing some channels. Ideally, this would be my preferred method, due to (assumed) better transmission quality and lack of need for an antenna. Any input on this? Would I need to contact Comcast to get HD transmission "turned on"? From the FAQ, it also sounds like Comcast doesn't rebroadcast CBS or KSTW. Any word on if or when they will start doing that?

3.This question might be better suited for another forum, but I'll throw it out there. If I were to use the QAM tuning card, could I use a splitter/combiner and hook in the antenna to the coax feed as well, and pickup the channels that Comcast doesn't rebroadcast? My guess is that this would probably cause interference or issues with the tuner (ATSC+QAM simultaneous reception)...

Thanks in advance for any help/feedback you local guys can give, I'm basically looking for feedback to determine if I should go ahead and order the Dvico card because of it's QAM tuning capability, which would hopefully leave me without requiring an antenna. I can easily return the ATI card, as it's purchased from CompUSA. In a couple of weeks when all items arrive and I start hooking them up, I'll be sure to add any helpful local information that I can.

Regards,
-Steveo

Originally posted by TPring98055
Dan, thanks for your response, the CM 4221 looks promising for me. Do you know where I can pick it up locally [to give it a try]?


Glyn

Glyn
Not sure, but I think they have them at Fry's. Pringles in Everett does, 1-800468-3033. You could use a 4228 and cut it in half, if the cost isn't too much. As it is would be too narrow for you, reception wise, and too much gain. Try finding the 4221, first.
Dan

Originally posted by Steveo369
First of all, I've browsed and searched this thread and found much of what I need in terms of info. The Word Document FAQ put together (link in lkinley's sig) is awesome.

This is my first post on AVSforum, so please give me a little slack, I hope I've researched enough to not cross the etiquette lines with stupid questions. I only have three questions, but they are fairly technical, so there's some background info included.

Here's the background info...
I'm expecting delivery of a 32" LCD HD Television Monitor soon. I am currently subscribed to Comcast analog only/basic cable as part of my condominium group subscription. I live in Greenwood near the intersection of Greenwood Ave N and N 80th St. on the third floor of a 4 story building. Windows face east and south. We have a slight rise/hill behind the building to the west. We can see the top of the Olympics from the roof of the building, but not the sound.

I would like to start getting basic HD content, not premium, to go with my new TV. I am also NOT currently interested in purchasing ANY additional HD content/box rental/package from Comcast unless absolutely necessary. I generally detest cable boxes. :D

As for OTA reception capabilities, I am planning on using a PCI HD Tuner card in a Windows MCE 2005 computer. I've got the ATI HDWonder (ATSC Tuner only- .ati.com/products/hdtvwonder/index.html)on order. This card includes a small OTA antenna, which will likely be mounted near the TV, inside. It *might* go out on the east-facing deck (I also have south exposure). I won't be putting it on the roof. I understand the FCC has rules protecting my ability to do so if I wish, but I'd rather not for now due to HOA issues.

A second possibility is for me to purchase the Dvico Fusion3 PCI card .dvico.com/products_mul_hd3.html, which includes ATSC AND QAM HD reception, and hook it up to the analog cable coax feed (or an antenna).

Questions
1. Based on my location and exposure, what are my chances of receiving decent quality signals from a small set-top antenna such as the one that comes with the HD Wonder? I'm highly interested in receiving Fox HD, but understand that's broadcast from the peninsula, which may mean my eastern exposure just won't cut it. Will the signals in my area be strong enough? I understand answers to this question will be highly speculative, but that's ok. The reason I ask for at least a gut-check answer is part of the next question.

2. From browsing the FAQ, it *sounds like* Comcast in Seattle is currently broadcasting HD stations over the analog cable in an unencrypted QAM transport. Is this correct? If so, I should be able to receive standard HD using the Dvico card connected to the regular coax cable (not premium content, obviously) and receive all of the standard channels without re-orienting my antenna or missing some channels. Ideally, this would be my preferred method, due to (assumed) better transmission quality and lack of need for an antenna. Any input on this? Would I need to contact Comcast to get HD transmission "turned on"? From the FAQ, it also sounds like Comcast doesn't rebroadcast CBS or KSTW. Any word on if or when they will start doing that?

3.This question might be better suited for another forum, but I'll throw it out there. If I were to use the QAM tuning card, could I use a splitter/combiner and hook in the antenna to the coax feed as well, and pickup the channels that Comcast doesn't rebroadcast? My guess is that this would probably cause interference or issues with the tuner (ATSC+QAM simultaneous reception)...

Thanks in advance for any help/feedback you local guys can give, I'm basically looking for feedback to determine if I should go ahead and order the Dvico card because of it's QAM tuning capability, which would hopefully leave me without requiring an antenna. I can easily return the ATI card, as it's purchased from CompUSA. In a couple of weeks when all items arrive and I start hooking them up, I'll be sure to add any helpful local information that I can.

Regards,
-Steveo

Steveo
1. IF your deck has enough south western exposure, you could get 13. The other channels are a very possible. Key is what corner of the intersection are you on. SW or NW would be great, NE not so good and SE worse. A 4221 would be the best, mounted on the outside of the deck railing, or above the deck railing, facing south. Indoors isn't going to do it.
2. Comcast does have HD ch7, now. What will they charge for THEIR card? Don't know, haven't done one yet. Will they let you use YOUR card? Don't know. Only Comcast can truly answer those questions. Having dealt with these people, good and bad, both through my customers and my home (ARRRRGHHHH!!!), you will find varying answers from their own people, and from various areas of the county. Ask for a supervisor to get the real skinny. And call back a few times to verify they really mean it. If you have internet through them, mention that, too, as there are some discounts available. You may not get the program guide you have on cable now, and no Video On Demand or Pay Per View, as the cards are one way comm.
3. You will need to use a simple $10 switch from RatShack to switch from antenna or cable. Mixing will definitely give problems, even with basic. They have the signal cranked up pretty good there, to overcome ingress or signals leaking in from the air, so it becomes a real hassle. It can be done simply with a UHF/VHF combiner, or three, but it still lets cable noise into the tuner, and that can give problems. Switch is the best, simplest way.

Call Comcast, before going any further, several times. You may even want to have them verify the answer in an e-mail to you. Am I going a little overboard? Yes, but having dealt with them, waaaayyy toooo many times, it sure will make the game easier. I agree, the best and simplest way would be use the cable if possible. If you only want over air, then try it and see what happens. No monthly charge, either.

Dan

Dan: Thanks for the reply - more comments/info.

1. I'm on the NW corner of the intersection, deck is on the east side of the building, at the south corner, so I do have some south west exposure, as well as a large window facing south next to the television. I'll just have to try it out I suppose.

2. I think perhaps you're misinterpreting my question. I don't currently have any digital cable signal, analog only. No guide, no box, no nothing. The tuner cards I'm talking about are for the PC, not the "cable card compatible unit" such as is advertised with some HDTVs.
Per the FAQ: (http removed due to url posting restrictions < 5 posts) dtv.contour.org/PugetSoundDTVFAQ.zip
I’ve tried everything but can’t get reception, now what?
Comcast is now carrying all the major local DTV stations except KIRO (CBS) and KSTW (UPN). You can either rent an HD capable box from them ($5.10 per month) or buy a QAM capable DTV tuner. You do not need to subscribe to a digital package to get these stations, however they will charge you an extra $5 if you elect to not to and use their tuner. To get the rest of the HD lineup (INHD, ESPNHD, etc), a digital package subscription is required (min $11) and their HD box is necessary since these channels are scrambled.

The Price breakdown below this question in the FAQ appears contradictory to the answer listed, maybe I'm missing something.
I'm trying to figure out if the HD signals are currently already broadcast with the analog signal, and if a QAM tuner card will receive them out of the box w/ no calls to Comcast. The only way I can check this is to order the QAM card, or hopefully find someone who has one. I was hoping someone here would know for sure, prior to me calling Comcast, as my experience sounds like it has been similar to yours. I'n not looking to get INHD/ESPNHD, as these would definitely require a box, just the local HD broadcasts via cable in lieu of OTA. Looks like I've got a future in getting passed around Comcast CS and being on hold for awhile with technical questions... :-/ I don't know that Comcast actually offers a PC based HD tuner card, I'd be really surprised if they do, and scared of the support/driver/hardware issues...

3. Thanks for the input on a switch. That's probably the way to go. I was hoping for a non-manual solution, as I may eventually want to schedule my HTPC PVR to automatically record some HD content, and I'd then have to keep track of the recordings and make sure the input switch is set correctly at those recording times.

Originally posted by Steveo369
...I'm trying to figure out if the HD signals are currently already broadcast with the analog signal, and if a QAM tuner card will receive them out of the box w/ no calls to Comcast. The only way I can check this is to order the QAM card, or hopefully find someone who has one. I was hoping someone here would know for sure, prior to me calling Comcast, as my experience sounds like it has been similar to yours.....

Update - I just found the Seattle, WA - Comcast Thread through the HDTV Thread index. This question really belongs there, but it's probably already answered, so I'll keep browsing... Thanks for the help on the other issues.

Steveo - I'm not sure about your question on QAM cards but I think the answer is yes. You might find better info on the Seattle - Comcast thread. The FAQ is a little out of date.

I checked your location and ch 13/FOX is about 30 degrees south of due west so you should be able to get it with a full south exposure.

They do make remote controlled switches if you end up having to go that route. I like everything automated too! :)

Originally posted by Steveo369
Dan: Thanks for the reply - more comments/info.

1. I'm on the NW corner of the intersection, deck is on the east side of the building, at the south corner, so I do have some south west exposure, as well as a large window facing south next to the television. I'll just have to try it out I suppose.

2. I think perhaps you're misinterpreting my question. I don't currently have any digital cable signal, analog only. No guide, no box, no nothing. The tuner cards I'm talking about are for the PC, not the "cable card compatible unit" such as is advertised with some HDTVs.
Per the FAQ: (http removed due to url posting restrictions < 5 posts) dtv.contour.org/PugetSoundDTVFAQ.zip
I’ve tried everything but can’t get reception, now what?
Comcast is now carrying all the major local DTV stations except KIRO (CBS) and KSTW (UPN). You can either rent an HD capable box from them ($5.10 per month) or buy a QAM capable DTV tuner. You do not need to subscribe to a digital package to get these stations, however they will charge you an extra $5 if you elect to not to and use their tuner. To get the rest of the HD lineup (INHD, ESPNHD, etc), a digital package subscription is required (min $11) and their HD box is necessary since these channels are scrambled.

The Price breakdown below this question in the FAQ appears contradictory to the answer listed, maybe I'm missing something.
I'm trying to figure out if the HD signals are currently already broadcast with the analog signal, and if a QAM tuner card will receive them out of the box w/ no calls to Comcast. The only way I can check this is to order the QAM card, or hopefully find someone who has one. I was hoping someone here would know for sure, prior to me calling Comcast, as my experience sounds like it has been similar to yours. I'n not looking to get INHD/ESPNHD, as these would definitely require a box, just the local HD broadcasts via cable in lieu of OTA. Looks like I've got a future in getting passed around Comcast CS and being on hold for awhile with technical questions... :-/ I don't know that Comcast actually offers a PC based HD tuner card, I'd be really surprised if they do, and scared of the support/driver/hardware issues...

3. Thanks for the input on a switch. That's probably the way to go. I was hoping for a non-manual solution, as I may eventually want to schedule my HTPC PVR to automatically record some HD content, and I'd then have to keep track of the recordings and make sure the input switch is set correctly at those recording times.

Steveo
If you have Comcast cable, the HD signal is there. If you have limited basic, (locals only), they put a trap on the cable to limit your signal to those below about ch 30. The HD signals are digital, and come over the same cable, but viewable only with something that can decode it. It's also encrypted, so that those people that have basic digital service, but NOT HD, won't be able to view it without paying for it. The card simply is an addressable device that they can turn on/off from the hub, and will allow your decoder, or theirs, to view the channels. They DO charge you for the HD channels, though less if you have the card capable unit. For people like you, that's what the extra $5 is for, even if they don't say it that way. It's another way of saying we will charge you for anything that has value and we can get away with it ! If they allow you to use your card, or they can address your card, either way, they will still have to come out and remove the channel limiter from your service. Since you don't have a guide, you most likely have limited service. They may also require you to use their card, which they will provide, no charge.
I would find it hard to believe that they would offer a PC card. The Motorola tuners are all I've ever seen them have.
As far as the switch for antenna goes, RatShack also makes an infrared A/B switch for about $40. I have used it with good success. What makes it cool is it has separate codes for each side, so if you have a custom remote that can learn, and do macros, then you can incorporate the antenna command along with the channel number as one macro. Makes the antenna switch invisible.
The 4221 will work, sometimes, through a window, and is small enough to fit inside most. I have installed them that way. Looks wierd, works great. Will work better outside, though.

Again, your best bet to get straight answers is to tough it out on hold.
Dan

I have a friend with Comcast Basic Analog cable service. He bought and installed an HDTV with an integrated QAM tuner. He receives the major HD channels over his Comcast cable at no additional charge. His Basic cable service is $13/month. He lives in Edgewood IIRC.

My understanding is that the cable companies are required, by law or FCC mandate, to pass the local broadcaster digital channels unencrypted and at no additional charge if the consumer provides their own QAM tuner. My friend's experience seems to prove that, at least for the Comcast area that he lives in.

His HDTV is cable card ready, but since he only wants the local channels, he has no need to obtain the cable card from Comcast.

I have heard indirectly of other folks with similar experiences.

Originally posted by Budget_HT

I have heard indirectly of other folks with similar experiences.

I've got limited basic cable here in Bellevue, and based on this post, I decided to connect the cable to my Sharp Aquos LC-73GD4U Digital input port. To my surprise, I can confirm that I can get a number of Digital and HD stations, including InHD. Previously, I had connected the cable to the Analog A/B ports. Based on this, I'll need to get a splitter so I can watch KCTS in HD along with our other Analog stations.

THANKS! :D

Originally posted by stevelee
I've got limited basic cable here in Bellevue, and based on this post, I decided to connect the cable to my Sharp Aquos LC-73GD4U Digital input port. To my surprise, I can confirm that I can get a number of Digital and HD stations, including InHD. Previously, I had connected the cable to the Analog A/B ports. Based on this, I'll need to get a splitter so I can watch KCTS in HD along with our other Analog stations.

THANKS! :D

Wow!
Very cool. I agree, it must be an FCC mandate to get the cable company to give it up for free! I'm going to have to try it out on others.
Dan

[/B] [B]You could use a 4228 and cut it in half, if the cost isn't too much. As it is would be too narrow for you, reception wise, and too much gain.
Dan

Interesting idea, let me take this one step further by asking if you think that I could successfully take a 4228 and bend it in a right angle and pick up Tacoma stations?

I can already pick up KBTC if I move my hoop in the right direction.

Thanks,

Glyn

Grrrr... Las Vegas on King5...no HD.....grrrrr.....

We finally settled in, and yep, I pull everything in with the old faithful Silver Sensor except for KBTC, our son's 2nd favorite channel (after KCTS). I can't complain though.

I'm having a problem with OTA reception that I'm hoping someone can weigh in on.

I live on the west side of mercer island, looking back towards Seattle with a few trees in the way. Decent elevation and I'm only a few miles from the Seattle towers.

Installed a square shooter in the fall. Reception has always been very spotty, with frequent dropouts. Could never pull in fox on a reliable basis. Signal meter on my HDTivo measured somewhere between 40s and 70s on most channels.

In preparation for the super bowl, picked up a silver sensor on a lark. The SS pulled in all Seattle stations in a rock-solid fashion, ranging from 85-90.

As I would rather rely on my outdoor antenna (and get rid of the SS), just curious if anyone can explain why the silver sensor works so much better than what I understood was a pretty good antenna (square shooter)? TIA.

magilla - first off, I haven't seen the gorilla for decades. Thanks for refreshing those long-dormant brain cells. As for your antenna, the SqS is not as directional as the SS so it may be that you are getting lots of reflections. A more directional antenna would help with that. Also, you are in a pretty hot signal area and so I would try a variable attenuator (Rat Shack $10). If you can knock down everything then your main signal may be the only one decoded by the receiver. The whole situation is a dice game of trial and error. You may need to try several locations since even a change of 12" can make a big difference. After exhausting all that you start trying different antennas - and always try the attenuator at each change of your setup.

The other route to go if you find no success is to hire a pro to do a site survey with a bevy of antennas. If you suspect there are any issues with hills I can check that topographically - post your nearest intersection.

Larry,

I've got a CM3023 (4248) mounted about 2ft above the roof on the second floor facing west. I get fairly strong signals 4/5 bars on an ATI HD-Wonder card on 4,5,9,11,13 DT's. I'm having some problems 3/5 bars on 7.

I've added a CM7777 on the mast to overcome some line losses - I have about 100 ft of RG6 to push. It did make a difference - the strong channels are all in the "green". The weak one is in the "yellow". My biggest problem is I get some occasional dropouts even on the strong channels when directly connected to the antenna pre-amp.

When I hook into the house distribution system, I really lose the signal - is there any recommendation for a good amplifier/splitter to use?

I'm using a Tru-spec 25db amp before the splitters/multi-switch. The multi-switch combines the OTA with 2 feeds from the DirecTv dish. I use a diplexor to split out the satellite and VHF/UHF signals. This setup used to work well with VHF, but since switching over to just UHF for Digital TV, the distribution system hasn't been working very well.

I'm suspecting some multipath at least in the direct connection case - can you check the address?

242nd Ave and NE 188th St, Woodinville.

Originally posted by TPring98055
You could use a 4228 and cut it in half, if the cost isn't too much. As it is would be too narrow for you, reception wise, and too much gain.
Dan

Interesting idea, let me take this one step further by asking if you think that I could successfully take a 4228 and bend it in a right angle and pick up Tacoma stations?

I can already pick up KBTC if I move my hoop in the right direction.

Thanks,

Glyn

Glyn
NO!
The two halves will fight each other from phase cancelling. KBTC is a very low power transmitter. Normally, you can fudge a 4221 to get it if the angle is not too great, but when you turn it away, obviously you loose some gain. The 4228 looses some of that ability because one half will get more signal than the other as you turn it, and phase cancel some signal. That makes it tougher. If you want an easy solution, cut it in half, so you have two 4221's. You'll have to drill out the rivets that hold the cross connectors, and mount the balun with some small bolts/nuts, similar to the 4221. Bend the cut edge similar to the outer edge on the back plane. Then use a RatShack A/B remote antenna switch, about $40, to go back and forth. You could even put a small preamp on the KBTC half if needed. Trying to use a ch27 Join Tenna would not work very well, as they are pretty wide, and could give you some problems with KONG31 and KTWB25. It works with ch13 FOX because the next nearest channel, KTWB25, is far enough away.
Dan

Originally posted by magillagorilla
I'm having a problem with OTA reception that I'm hoping someone can weigh in on.

I live on the west side of mercer island, looking back towards Seattle with a few trees in the way. Decent elevation and I'm only a few miles from the Seattle towers.

Installed a square shooter in the fall. Reception has always been very spotty, with frequent dropouts. Could never pull in fox on a reliable basis. Signal meter on my HDTivo measured somewhere between 40s and 70s on most channels.

In preparation for the super bowl, picked up a silver sensor on a lark. The SS pulled in all Seattle stations in a rock-solid fashion, ranging from 85-90.

As I would rather rely on my outdoor antenna (and get rid of the SS), just curious if anyone can explain why the silver sensor works so much better than what I understood was a pretty good antenna (square shooter)? TIA.

magilla
As quarque mentioned, it's a hot area for signal, and the square shooter is not very good at anything, on or off axis. I own one, tried it for months against others all over, way over rated. The SS is a mini-mini yagi. If you have some line of sight, and not too many trees, the 4221 works great, but you should use an attenuator to drop the signal level down. If you have a fair amount of trees to go through, than a small yagi, like the little RatShack or Antenncraft
http://antennacraft-tdp.com/7B141.htm
They don't have to be mounted high, and can go on the side of the house or any place where they can see west to Bremerton and NW to QA hill.
Dan

Originally posted by johnbr42
Larry,

I've got a CM3023 (4248) mounted about 2ft above the roof on the second floor facing west. I get fairly strong signals 4/5 bars on an ATI HD-Wonder card on 4,5,9,11,13 DT's. I'm having some problems 3/5 bars on 7.

I've added a CM7777 on the mast to overcome some line losses - I have about 100 ft of RG6 to push. It did make a difference - the strong channels are all in the "green". The weak one is in the "yellow". My biggest problem is I get some occasional dropouts even on the strong channels when directly connected to the antenna pre-amp.

When I hook into the house distribution system, I really lose the signal - is there any recommendation for a good amplifier/splitter to use?

I'm using a Tru-spec 25db amp before the splitters/multi-switch. The multi-switch combines the OTA with 2 feeds from the DirecTv dish. I use a diplexor to split out the satellite and VHF/UHF signals. This setup used to work well with VHF, but since switching over to just UHF for Digital TV, the distribution system hasn't been working very well.

I'm suspecting some multipath at least in the direct connection case - can you check the address?

242nd Ave and NE 188th St, Woodinville.

johnbr42
I was just out there last week, at the north end of 242nd! Driving over the 50 speed bumps every day has got to try your patience, but I'll wager the peace and quiet makes up for it.
Your problem is in several parts. Using an amp after a preamp just adds to the noise level, and noise really confuses a digital decoder. Then going through a satellite cable just compounds it, as the DC power for the dish is dirty/noisy, and then you have all the harmonic noise from the dish signal. Add to that most diplexers have some non linearity in their pass through, and some more loss and you have an ugly signal, noise and level wise.
THEN, there's the trees. They can really filter the signal for a single channel. This is where an analyzer helps, as you can see the wave shape of the signal. You may actually have a fair amount of signal level, but if the "shape" of the signal is not fairly flat, no go. You will need to try some different locations for the antenna, to thread the needle through the trees. 8" in any direction can make or break it. Last, if all that's not enough, you need to only use the UHF portion of the 7777. If you haven't set it for that, then it will try and amplify the VHF portion, as well, and add noise to the UHF signal. The 4248 is UHF only, and will not work for VHF very well, very ugly analog. UHF analog will also look pretty bad with all the trees. Put a 75 ohm terminator on the VHF input of the 7777. Bypass the satellite cable and make the antenna run dedicated to the decoder. Then start to move the antenna around. Patience will reward!
Dan

Thanx Dan!

Speed bumps - our price for pavement. You should have seen it before it was paved!

I'll keep the OTA signals out of the sat feeds and plug up the VHF input to see how that works. I can keep the OTA separate - I'll just keep it that way. I used the amp to make up for the splitter loses for each of the home runs to the rooms.

I don't have too many choices on the antenna location at the moment to be able to move it 8". Perhaps a height adjustment if it can find an opening through the trees - I might wait a little longer to try it once the trees have leaves on them. I'd hate to thread the needle more than once.

I'm sorry if I'm not supposed to post a new thread about this. If so, please let me know how I should go about asking this.

I live about 40 miles from Seattle WA as the crow flies. I am currently using a rooftop antenna and an amplifier to recieve the Seattle stations. All but a few of them come in very good to perfect. 4 and 5 are best, 7 is good, 13 is very strong (too strong), 11, 16, and 33 aren't too great. If I bought an HDTV/tuner would the reception be similar to what I currently get? Would some get better? Is it "perfect or nothing"?

Originally posted by Hi Ho
I'm sorry if I'm not supposed to post a new thread about this. If so, please let me know how I should go about asking this.

I live about 40 miles from Seattle WA as the crow flies. I am currently using a rooftop antenna and an amplifier to recieve the Seattle stations. All but a few of them come in very good to perfect. 4 and 5 are best, 7 is good, 13 is very strong (too strong), 11, 16, and 33 aren't too great. If I bought an HDTV/tuner would the reception be similar to what I currently get? Would some get better? Is it "perfect or nothing"?
You came to the right place. If you are getting pretty decent analog signal then you should do OK on digital. Yes it is an "all or nothing" situation. Well, I should say "all, nothing, or intermittent". If you can get a steady signal you will have perfect reception. When there are lots of reflections coming at you it gets dicey. These would show up in analog mode as ghosts. If you have lots of ghosts on most channels you may not do well. But you never know. See if you can borrow a receiver to see if it can lock on the major stations. The other route to go is to hire a pro installer to do a site survey for about $100. If you will post your nearest intersection I can see how your line-of-sight looks.

Anyone else get some pauses, freezing, sound pops etc. tonight during Lost? Most noticably during the Jin+assasin scene...I've seen the same during Alias as well.

I saw a number of brief video and audio glitches in the programs OTA down here watching the Sacramento station which is not normal. They may be having problems with the west coast feed.

Originally posted by Hi Ho
I'm sorry if I'm not supposed to post a new thread about this. If so, please let me know how I should go about asking this.

I live about 40 miles from Seattle WA as the crow flies. I am currently using a rooftop antenna and an amplifier to recieve the Seattle stations. All but a few of them come in very good to perfect. 4 and 5 are best, 7 is good, 13 is very strong (too strong), 11, 16, and 33 aren't too great. If I bought an HDTV/tuner would the reception be similar to what I currently get? Would some get better? Is it "perfect or nothing"?

HiHo
Depends on where you are. It sounds like you have a VHF only antenna, or a small combo antenna. What you get for analog is NOT a very accurate indicator of UHF HD reception. VHF travels much further than UHF, and HD is tougher when you start to get into the trees. All Seattle HD channels are UHF. If you're NW or West of Seattle, you may fall into the "dead" zone for HD ch's 4,5,7,11 & 16. SW of Seattle could be better, but still a problem, too. You are most likely in a fairly good line of sight location, but I have seen many surveys just like yours, that wouldn't work very well with UHF HD.
Now, IF you can get good HD reception, then the difference in reception quality will be amazing. Even if you don't have a HD set, some converters do a good job of down converting the signal, giving you a very good, clean noise free signal. I have my office setup that way. Much better picture. If and when you get a HD set, all the better. Some of the satellite HD receivers can be had for about $300, which is about the same as an over air only receiver, but have better down converting capabilities. You don't need to use the satellite portion, just turn it off.
Send us your location and we can give you a better idea of what to expect.
Dan

I am on the southern tip of Hood Canal in Union. I have a UHF/VHF directional antenna that was built from a kit.

Originally posted by johnbr42
Thanx Dan!

Speed bumps - our price for pavement. You should have seen it before it was paved!

I'll keep the OTA signals out of the sat feeds and plug up the VHF input to see how that works. I can keep the OTA separate - I'll just keep it that way. I used the amp to make up for the splitter loses for each of the home runs to the rooms.

I don't have too many choices on the antenna location at the moment to be able to move it 8". Perhaps a height adjustment if it can find an opening through the trees - I might wait a little longer to try it once the trees have leaves on them. I'd hate to thread the needle more than once.

John
Since you can't move it much, then you need to make record of what readings you get at each degree or direction the antenna is pointed at. This is time consuming, but can reward.
Look at the nose of the antenna and move it about 2", only a few degrees at most. Then take readings for about 30 seconds on each channel you're trying for. Note the high and low readings, and how much it's bouncing around or not. Then move the antenna nose another 2", and do it again. After a while, a pattern will emerge showing some stations are not very fussy, others very much so. This will give you a clue as to which ones you need to really be very careful about in your direction, and where to go. Then if you move the antenna up or down, and do it all again, you'll start to see where it helped or didn't, and give you more clues about what's in the way. Once you see where the best directions are for each of the three locations, (9-11-22 capitol hill, 4-5-7-16 QA hill, 13 Bremerton), then it will start to make sense as to where to move it. Yes, it will take some time and patience, but cost's nothing, and might solve the problem. You have about the best combo there is for fighting the trees.
Good luck.
Dan

Originally posted by Hi Ho
I am on the southern tip of Hood Canal in Union. I have a UHF/VHF directional antenna that was built from a kit.

If you're up on the hill top at union heights and seattle dr, you're line of sight. If you're down on east main and hwy 106, you're screwed. What's the cross streets where you are, for a more exact location?
Dan

I'm on 3rd St. about 100ft up from the water.

Originally posted by Hi Ho
I'm on 3rd St. about 100ft up from the water.

3rd and Seattle, 3rd and main, 3rd and ??
It really makes a difference.
Dan

Oh, sorry. :o It's 3rd and Seattle.

Originally posted by Hi Ho
Oh, sorry. :o It's 3rd and Seattle.

Man, you are really on the ragged edge!!! You split the gap between two hills by Tahuya, and skim right along the SE sides of the cliffs, across the north side of the canal, for about 5 miles before you're in the clear. The cliffs start to get in your way about 5 miles from you. Capital hill should be a little easier, and 13 is a slam dunk. I would use a 4248 and 7775 preamp. It has enough directionality to minimize gain from 13, and help you slice-N-dice along the cliffs. Ch33 is going to be iffy, as it's not very strong, but then most people aren't too concerned about that one. I'm also assuming you don't have any trees in your way to the NE as you look to Seattle.
Dan

I hate to admit it, but I need some help because I'm all out of ideas. If anyone can offer assistance it would be most welcome.

It's a retro install and I'm diplexing off air with satellite into a couple of HD TiVo units. The location is in Issaquah (NW Varese Ct) up on a hill with only sparse trees around. The antenna is up high and there's about 100 feet of coax from the antenna to the low volt panel, then there's the coax between the low volt panel and the drops (which can't amount to more than another 75 to 100' per drop).

I'm using an 8 bay UHF only (channel master) after trying a 4 bay and a Terk equivalent of a 4 bay. At the antenna (using a Displaymax 800) I have a signal strength of 15 to 20dB (average) on channel 38 & 39, but on 41 and 48 I'm lucky to get between -5 and 0dB, and forget Channel 13 HD (can't remember the real channel #).

I've run the signal straight through to the HD TiVo's (although through a diplexer) and amped the signal with mast mounted variable amp (amping at varying levels from 0 to 30 dB) but there seems to be no change in signal strength to the TiVo's. Channels 4.1 and 7.1 come in at about 68% signal strength on the TiVo's built in meter and display fine with no pixilation, while channels 5.1 and 9.1 barely show up with a 15% to 20% signal (regardless of what I do with the incoming signal). And I haven't even gotten a pulse from channel 13.1, which at this point is seeming hopeless.

I put my Sadelco on the line after the diplexer and can see a difference when I change the amp levels, but the TiVo's doesn't seem to see the difference.

I thought 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 came off of QA and 9.1 came off of Capitol Hill, which begs the question, why can't I get 5.1 when I get 4 & 7.

... at this point, I'll take all the suggestions I can get.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Man, you are really on the ragged edge!!!

Dan, you might want to ask how high his existing antenna is. I grew up near there (in Kitsap county) and a lot of antennas are quite a distance from the ground! ;)

Dan,

I was looking at my antenna placement last night as well. Part of the north-western pattern is covered by a nearby (50' from the antenna) big cedar tree. If I move the antenna about 10' south, I have a nice clearing for about a 1/4 mile - really opens up the line-of-sight to the west. I'll have to really consider moving the antenna to clear that big tree.

Having a better signal meter (short of a spectrum analyzer), would really help. What I get from the computer card seems pretty rough - getting "solid green" but still experiencing drop outs. What are other folks using to measure signal levels (and shapes)?

Thanx for the help!

My antenna is about 20 feet up in a tree. There is a patch of trees to the east but I'm not sure if they would interfere. Sorry for sounding dumb but what do you mean by "4248" and "7775". Are they model numbers?

DanKurts wrote:
<b>"Some of the satellite HD receivers can be had for about $300, which is about the same as an over air only receiver, but have better down converting capabilities. You don't need to use the satellite portion, just turn it off."</b>

So, I could get a used satellite HD reciever off Ebay and I could use it as an OTA reciever "without" having to subscibe to satellite service? I'm considering getting a reciver and if that's an option I'd like to be sure of it. Also, do most of the sat. HD recievers put out a signal for standard TV's?

James

Originally posted by Hi Ho
My antenna is about 20 feet up in a tree. There is a patch of trees to the east but I'm not sure if they would interfere. Sorry for sounding dumb but what do you mean by "4248" and "7775". Are they model numbers?

These are Channel Master model numbers .... he 4248 is a UHF antenna and the 7775 is a preamp. Visit http://www.channelmaster.com for more info.

Originally posted by johnbr42
Dan,

I was looking at my antenna placement last night as well. Part of the north-western pattern is covered by a nearby (50' from the antenna) big cedar tree. If I move the antenna about 10' south, I have a nice clearing for about a 1/4 mile - really opens up the line-of-sight to the west. I'll have to really consider moving the antenna to clear that big tree.

Having a better signal meter (short of a spectrum analyzer), would really help. What I get from the computer card seems pretty rough - getting "solid green" but still experiencing drop outs. What are other folks using to measure signal levels (and shapes)?

Thanx for the help!

John
I don't know of anything that's cheap or could accurately be used for measuring. Most people go by the built in "strength" meter. It's only measuring signal to noise ratio, not the actual amount of signal. Once you're above the minimum it takes to read, then it simply shows what it can do with it. You could actually have a little or a lot, and not see any change in those readings. That's what makes it kind of frustrating. The meter I use shows an actual scope type reading, or wave shape, and that's also key as to how well you're doing. I spent an hour today in the Bear Creek area just trying to find that sweet spot. Without the meter, it would have taken two people and a lot of time. But it's possible. Move the antenna, first. It sounds like a much better spot.
Your direction should be basically SW, give or take.
Dan

Originally posted by Whidbey
DanKurts wrote:
<b>"Some of the satellite HD receivers can be had for about $300, which is about the same as an over air only receiver, but have better down converting capabilities. You don't need to use the satellite portion, just turn it off."</b>

So, I could get a used satellite HD reciever off Ebay and I could use it as an OTA reciever "without" having to subscibe to satellite service? I'm considering getting a reciver and if that's an option I'd like to be sure of it. Also, do most of the sat. HD recievers put out a signal for standard TV's?

James

James
Yes, when the receiver first boots up, it will try and download it's OS, but if you hit the enter or select button a few times, or if it says you can bypass the download, then that allows you to go into the setup and select the dish type. This is where you can usually select None or No. I do this often on new construction, when they don't have the dish installed yet, but want to check out the antenna.
Dan

Originally posted by thebigmurph
I hate to admit it, but I need some help because I'm all out of ideas. If anyone can offer assistance it would be most welcome.

It's a retro install and I'm diplexing off air with satellite into a couple of HD TiVo units. The location is in Issaquah (NW Varese Ct) up on a hill with only sparse trees around. The antenna is up high and there's about 100 feet of coax from the antenna to the low volt panel, then there's the coax between the low volt panel and the drops (which can't amount to more than another 75 to 100' per drop).

I'm using an 8 bay UHF only (channel master) after trying a 4 bay and a Terk equivalent of a 4 bay. At the antenna (using a Displaymax 800) I have a signal strength of 15 to 20dB (average) on channel 38 & 39, but on 41 and 48 I'm lucky to get between -5 and 0dB, and forget Channel 13 HD (can't remember the real channel #).

I've run the signal straight through to the HD TiVo's (although through a diplexer) and amped the signal with mast mounted variable amp (amping at varying levels from 0 to 30 dB) but there seems to be no change in signal strength to the TiVo's. Channels 4.1 and 7.1 come in at about 68% signal strength on the TiVo's built in meter and display fine with no pixilation, while channels 5.1 and 9.1 barely show up with a 15% to 20% signal (regardless of what I do with the incoming signal). And I haven't even gotten a pulse from channel 13.1, which at this point is seeming hopeless.

I put my Sadelco on the line after the diplexer and can see a difference when I change the amp levels, but the TiVo's doesn't seem to see the difference.

I thought 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 came off of QA and 9.1 came off of Capitol Hill, which begs the question, why can't I get 5.1 when I get 4 & 7.

... at this point, I'll take all the suggestions I can get.

bigmurph
First, I have done many up there. The tricky part is that you don't realize you're almost looking at a dead level reception path, so ANY trees in the way can be a problem. You're skimming along the hillside and there's a tiny peak about 1.2 miles from you, that most likely has, you guessed it, trees. Normally, this wouldn't be that big a deal, but it really is. I have not had good success with bow tie types up there. Yagi's work better. Since you have a good meter, look at the wave shape. If it's not fairly flat, or has peaks and valleys of more than 5-7db, then gain is not going to help. You must find a spot where you can get that shape as flat as possible. Then, 9-11-22 come from a little further to the south, which puts you more into the hill, and 13 is almost due west, and usually a gonner. The reason for 5 being weak, is their signal is weaker to the eastside. Ch9 is further into the hill. Signal level of -5db is fine, even down as much as -12, if the waveshape is flat. But you will need to preamplify it to make up for all the cable loss. The 7775 is great for that. Just make sure you don't have more than 10 to 15db at the set. If possible, keep the cables separate, no diplexer, as the satellite can add noise. There's more. All around you are FM radio towers, repeaters for cab compnies, cell towers, and lots of ham radio guys that sometimes like to have fun! This all adds up to more noise. Finally, the Tivo tuners are not as sensitive as some others, and not happy with noise.
Find a spot for a yagi, preamp it at the antenna, and try it directly into the Tivo, no satellite. See what you get, then. If it works, then add the diplexers back in. Be sure to use a good 50db or better separation diplexer at the Tivo. This will also help with the noise. Channel master makes a good one.
Dan

Here's hoping the Oscars tonight arent all glitchy with the HD picture...its' early I know, but I've already gotten a bunch of freezes on KOMO. Otherwise, it looks great.

I am new to both HDTV and off air. Just hooked up a channel master (cm4228) approx 5' above my chimney pointed with clear view at approx
180 degrees azimuth. I am getting all the digital channels that I want with the possible exception of KONG (AntennaWeb indicates KONG is available but I have not found any posts by anyone saying they are getting it. I am
picking up cbs, nbc, abc, fox, upn, and pbs. Some of the networks have multiple channels. Not sure how happy the neighbors are going to be with me. The line of site for the antenna doesn't ruin anyones views (I hope) towards the Cascades. We do have a lot of trees around here and to some extent that helps. One thing I am curious about is after having read several posts regarding painting the antenna to assist disguise (have not done that yet) has anyone heard of disguising antennas with some sort of
mask or cover? I'm thinking if people can get signal thru a wall in an attic that some sort of mesh cover (catching wind could be a problem) must be out there as an existing product to help disguise the thing. Maybe in the form of a flag or something that could just drape over the antenna (something like a pillow over).

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Here's hoping the Oscars tonight arent all glitchy with the HD picture...its' early I know, but I've already gotten a bunch of freezes on KOMO. Otherwise, it looks great.

I've seen freezes on KOMO HD on Comcast, so it's probably not related to OTA issues, but maybe to ABC itself...

Originally posted by stevelee
I've seen freezes on KOMO HD on Comcast, so it's probably not related to OTA issues, but maybe to ABC itself...

Ugh... the last commercial break had awful sound... something was out of sync

Originally posted by DanKurts
bigmurph
First, I have done many up there. The tricky part is that you don't realize you're almost looking at a dead level reception path, so ANY trees in the way can be a problem. You're skimming along the hillside and there's a tiny peak about 1.2 miles from you, that most likely has, you guessed it, trees. Normally, this wouldn't be that big a deal, but it really is. I have not had good success with bow tie types up there. Yagi's work better. Since you have a good meter, look at the wave shape. If it's not fairly flat, or has peaks and valleys of more than 5-7db, then gain is not going to help. You must find a spot where you can get that shape as flat as possible. Then, 9-11-22 come from a little further to the south, which puts you more into the hill, and 13 is almost due west, and usually a gonner. The reason for 5 being weak, is their signal is weaker to the eastside. Ch9 is further into the hill. Signal level of -5db is fine, even down as much as -12, if the waveshape is flat. But you will need to preamplify it to make up for all the cable loss. The 7775 is great for that. Just make sure you don't have more than 10 to 15db at the set. If possible, keep the cables separate, no diplexer, as the satellite can add noise. There's more. All around you are FM radio towers, repeaters for cab compnies, cell towers, and lots of ham radio guys that sometimes like to have fun! This all adds up to more noise. Finally, the Tivo tuners are not as sensitive as some others, and not happy with noise.
Find a spot for a yagi, preamp it at the antenna, and try it directly into the Tivo, no satellite. See what you get, then. If it works, then add the diplexers back in. Be sure to use a good 50db or better separation diplexer at the Tivo. This will also help with the noise. Channel master makes a good one.
Dan

Dan,

Thank you very much!!

Why would I have no problem receiving 16-1, yet cannot or I should say rarely am I able to lock in on 5-1, are they not broadcast from the same tower? I am located SE of Yelm and I know on the fringes of any decent signals but this has me perplexed. I have a 4228 with a 7775 preamp and have the thing about 10 feet above the roof gable. I do get 4-1 and of course 13-1, 11-1, 22-1, 28-1 and some others I don't watch 33-1 etc. 7-1 is for the most part non existent.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Here's hoping the Oscars tonight arent all glitchy with the HD picture...its' early I know, but I've already gotten a bunch of freezes on KOMO. Otherwise, it looks great.

A few commercials had mangled audio, but I thought the actual program was the cleanest network broadcast I've seen in HD on KOMO in recent memory. :)

Originally posted by radtek
Why would I have no problem receiving 16-1, yet cannot or I should say rarely am I able to lock in on 5-1, are they not broadcast from the same tower?

KING-TV, KONG-TV, KING-DT, and KONG-DT all originate from the same tower on Queen Anne, but their antennae are at different heights on that tower and their transmitters operate at different powers.

KONG's signal is adequately strong with little multipath where I live, but KING's overly strong with a bit of multipath. Your situation may be similar.

Radtek - have you tried moving your antenna at all? Like some have said it sometimes just takes a little bit. When posting before, I mentiond that I get KOMO 90% of the time KING 50% and KIRO just 10% out here. I took and moved mine just one foot West to try to clear the trees a little more and lost all 3 most of the time. Moved it back plus another 6 inches East which was as far as I could go without major changes and now both KOMO and KING are 90% of the time and KIRO about 30% so it really doesn't take much. I'm sure my problem with KIRO must be multipath because the meters will often hit 100% but not long enough to lock.

Is KOMO ever going to broadcast HD without glitches? I'm watching the last Alias from last week on my comcast dvr and it's choppy as hell in places. It's making me crazy and I can't trust any ABC show to record decently.

When is this problem going to go away?

Hi all,

I am in Seattle (on top of Wedgewood to be specific) and am looking to setup OTA HD to my projector.

I am really new to HD and don't understand much about OTA signals, etc. So I am looking for some help from the people who have done it already :)

I looked at antennaweb.org and my channels are 70% yellow / 30% green.

First off, obviously, an antenna. I am leaning toward an outdoor, depending on how hideous it looks ;) I have heard good things about Winegard Squareshooter. Does anyone have experience with this one? What about other brand / models???

Also, if I was to use an indoor ant, which should I try?

Second, the tuner. I was looking at the Samsung 151 (no QAM) used to get in cheap. Is it a waste of money or a decent unit? Anything better on the cheaper side? < $200

Thanks for your help!
brim

Originally posted by rickeame
Is KOMO ever going to broadcast HD without glitches? I'm watching the last Alias from last week on my comcast dvr and it's choppy as hell in places. It's making me crazy and I can't trust any ABC show to record decently.

When is this problem going to go away?

I have a solid signal on channel 38 here in Mukilteo and I watched the last Alias very closely, looking for picture 'freezes'. I don't recall seeing a single one on that program. Things have pretty well settled down with a clean, multipath-free path.

The only problem that I saw during the Oscar show last night was garbled audio on one local commercial break. Breaks both before and after were OK. This appeared to be a problem with the audio processor.

Are you confident that you have a good multipath-free signal? If the signal is marginal, the receiver will freeze with slight changes in the transmission path.

You might try changing the antenna position slightly...sometimes a few inches, up, down, sideways can make a huge difference.

Originally posted by radtek
Why would I have no problem receiving 16-1, yet cannot or I should say rarely am I able to lock in on 5-1, are they not broadcast from the same tower? I am located SE of Yelm and I know on the fringes of any decent signals but this has me perplexed. I have a 4228 with a 7775 preamp and have the thing about 10 feet above the roof gable. I do get 4-1 and of course 13-1, 11-1, 22-1, 28-1 and some others I don't watch 33-1 etc. 7-1 is for the most part non existent.

radtek
In addition to what pastiche said, the frequencies are vastly different, KING 674-680mhz, and KONG 572-578mhz. The higher the frequency, the more it's bothered bothered by the trees and less able to go over hills or around objects. Also, the 4228 is a wide-reception type antenna, and picks up everything from about 45+ degrees to either side of dead ahead. You can't see what the signal carrier really looks like, only read the measurement of how well the deocder can handle the signal, indicated by the percentage of signal to noise ratio, zero-100%. It could be you're getting plenty of signal, but there's a big "hole" somewhere in between 674 and 680mhz. The net result is your receiver says zero to maybe 30% or something similar. The "hole", could be caused by multipath, where two signals from different directions are cancelling each other, a lot or a little, and the net result is bad KING. This is where a yagi comes in. It has a very narrow reception path, and won't look at some of the bounced signals, so you end up with more signal, or the same amount, but a cleaner one with no "hole".

I use the 4248 95% of the time when I'm out in the woods, or another brand/type of yagi. You may have to try some different spots or directions to thread your way through the tree's to get all the channels, but once you find it, it will usually be stronger and more reliable.

Dan

Originally posted by forum junkie
Radtek - have you tried moving your antenna at all? Like some have said it sometimes just takes a little bit. When posting before, I mentiond that I get KOMO 90% of the time KING 50% and KIRO just 10% out here. I took and moved mine just one foot West to try to clear the trees a little more and lost all 3 most of the time. Moved it back plus another 6 inches East which was as far as I could go without major changes and now both KOMO and KING are 90% of the time and KIRO about 30% so it really doesn't take much. I'm sure my problem with KIRO must be multipath because the meters will often hit 100% but not long enough to lock.

FJ
When you see bouncing meters like that, it can also be you're very weak on signal level, right at the threshold of what your tuner can handle. A hair more signal, and it will lock, because the shape of the carrier is probably pretty good, and it locks. A hair less, and it dies. Digital decoders don't work like analog, so when levels fall below their ability to detect noise from data, they do what's called avalanche, or just quit. No soft edge, or gradual on/off, just zero. From what you describe, I bet the actual level, measured in db's on a meter, is around -12 to -15db at KIRO's freqeuncy range.
Well done on moving the antenna around. That's what it takes.
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
I am new to both HDTV and off air. Just hooked up a channel master (cm4228) approx 5' above my chimney pointed with clear view at approx
180 degrees azimuth. I am getting all the digital channels that I want with the possible exception of KONG (AntennaWeb indicates KONG is available but I have not found any posts by anyone saying they are getting it. I am
picking up cbs, nbc, abc, fox, upn, and pbs. Some of the networks have multiple channels. Not sure how happy the neighbors are going to be with me. The line of site for the antenna doesn't ruin anyones views (I hope) towards the Cascades. We do have a lot of trees around here and to some extent that helps. One thing I am curious about is after having read several posts regarding painting the antenna to assist disguise (have not done that yet) has anyone heard of disguising antennas with some sort of
mask or cover? I'm thinking if people can get signal thru a wall in an attic that some sort of mesh cover (catching wind could be a problem) must be out there as an existing product to help disguise the thing. Maybe in the form of a flag or something that could just drape over the antenna (something like a pillow over).

Chuck
I have not heard of anything for the 4228 or 4221. The big problem is the covering can really block signal when it gets wet, and as you said, wind loads. They do make them for satellite dishes in snow climates, but they cut down on their signal, too. I have had to remove a few from dishes around here when they got older, as the material got dirty and blocked even more. If you want to paint it, that's fine. Everything except the bow ties and connecting rods is okay. Actually had a customer do one in pink!
Measured it afterwards and saw no change. The HD antennas on Seahawk stadium are black anodized, completely, and they still worked about 95% of regular ones (Man, that was a HIKE up the stairs behind the scoreboard. Had stop and rest a few times!!).
You might try a 4221, or cut yours in half, vertically. I bet you'll still get the same stations, but you'll have reduced the width by half, making it a little less visible.
Dan

Originally posted by brim
Hi all,

I am in Seattle (on top of Wedgewood to be specific) and am looking to setup OTA HD to my projector.

I am really new to HD and don't understand much about OTA signals, etc. So I am looking for some help from the people who have done it already :)

I looked at antennaweb.org and my channels are 70% yellow / 30% green.

First off, obviously, an antenna. I am leaning toward an outdoor, depending on how hideous it looks ;) I have heard good things about Winegard Squareshooter. Does anyone have experience with this one? What about other brand / models???

Also, if I was to use an indoor ant, which should I try?

Second, the tuner. I was looking at the Samsung 151 (no QAM) used to get in cheap. Is it a waste of money or a decent unit? Anything better on the cheaper side? < $200

Thanks for your help!
brim

brim
I use the 4221 over there most of the time, as long as you're not in a gully, or along the west side of 25th from say 22nd to 19thNE, along 75th, for example. If you're on the top, like 30th to 32nd NE, they work great. If you have a side of the house where it can get a view from South to South West, it can be mounted there and be less obvious. Be sure to use an attennuator, of at least 10 db, or you'll probably overload the tuner.
The Square Shooter is a joke, I posted info on it further back on this thread.
Forget indoor, too unreliable there, signal is hot. The Samsung 151 is very good tuner. Haven't heard of anything under $200.
Beware of used tuners. A lot have been fried from people putting them in cabinets where they cook to death. Once outside and cooled down, they sometimes work okay, for a while, but still die eventually. The Samsung 360 is a good satellite & over air HD tuner, that can be had new for around $300, just switch off the satellite portion.
Dan

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
I have a solid signal on channel 38 here in Mukilteo and I watched the last Alias very closely, looking for picture 'freezes'. I don't recall seeing a single one on that program. Things have pretty well settled down with a clean, multipath-free path.

The only problem that I saw during the Oscar show last night was garbled audio on one local commercial break. Breaks both before and after were OK. This appeared to be a problem with the audio processor.

Are you confident that you have a good multipath-free signal? If the signal is marginal, the receiver will freeze with slight changes in the transmission path.

You might try changing the antenna position slightly...sometimes a few inches, up, down, sideways can make a huge difference.

I'm watching on comcast, so no antenna is in the path. Pretty much the same "glitches" I was seeing with my OTA antenna a few months ago.

Originally posted by rickeame
Is KOMO ever going to broadcast HD without glitches? I'm watching the last Alias from last week on my comcast dvr and it's choppy as hell in places. It's making me crazy and I can't trust any ABC show to record decently.

When is this problem going to go away?

rickeame
I would bet the problem is in your Comcast box or the level of the cable coming in. I've had a few installs lately with both Comast HD and Satellite, and we could watch them side by side. When the signal level got low, or the noise level got too high, it would break up. Then when he started doing some downloads on his Comcast internet cable, it also started to breakup the HD channels. Sometimes only audio, others both picture and audio. We had them bring up the levels to +15db, and most of the glitches went away on one box, but the other was still a little jumpy. I called back in for a new box, because the customer was still not happy, but they said they're aware of the problem, and are working on it, and that's normal !!! Unless the box is dead, they wouldn't replace it.
Hmmmm......
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
brim
I use the 4221 over there most of the time, as long as you're not in a gully, or along the west side of 25th from say 22nd to 19thNE, along 75th, for example. If you're on the top, like 30th to 32nd NE, they work great. If you have a side of the house where it can get a view from South to South West, it can be mounted there and be less obvious.

Dan, thanks for the info. A few more questions.

- Could this antenna be mounted on the ground (or a fence)? I have no obstructions to the S / SW for about 150 ft, then there are some single story houses.

- Also, since this antenna doesn't pick up VHF, do you have a recommendation on a VHF antenna for my other non-HD tv?

brim

Originally posted by forum junkie
Radtek - have you tried moving your antenna at all? Like some have said it sometimes just takes a little bit. When posting before, I mentioned that I get KOMO 90% of the time KING 50% and KIRO just 10% out here. I took and moved mine just one foot West to try to clear the trees a little more and lost all 3 most of the time. Moved it back plus another 6 inches East which was as far as I could go without major changes and now both KOMO and KING are 90% of the time and KIRO about 30% so it really doesn't take much. I'm sure my problem with KIRO must be multipath because the meters will often hit 100% but not long enough to lock.

Hi FJ, My situation with the antenna is rather set where it is. The mast runs from the ground up the side of the house in 3, 10 foot sections and is secured with 2 sets of 3 guide wires, one set midway, the other set higher up. As you know the wind here can be brutal and westerly I have no natural wind breaks. I only have a 5 to 10 degree of adjustment but that seems to be all I need in that location. I would like to try a more directional antenna mounted near the roof peak at a lower height ( before I put the last 10 foot section on I got 5-1 most of the time) and use an antenna -join or some other combiner. I think this might be my only solution.

Originally posted by rickeame
Is KOMO ever going to broadcast HD without glitches? I'm watching the last Alias from last week on my comcast dvr and it's choppy as hell in places. It's making me crazy and I can't trust any ABC show to record decently.

When is this problem going to go away?


I think you are running into a problem with your Comcast DVR. I watched Alias last week, recorded onto my Dish 921 via OTA, and I had one audio dropout the entire hour, in fact I recorded Lost and Alias and between the 2 shows only had that one audio dropout, no video chopping.

Originally posted by robglasser
I think you are running into a problem with your Comcast DVR. I watched Alias last week, recorded onto my Dish 921 via OTA, and I had one audio dropout the entire hour, in fact I recorded Lost and Alias and between the 2 shows only had that one audio dropout, no video chopping.

no way....komo has problems. NYPD Blue is a mess right now for me.

Originally posted by brim
Dan, thanks for the info. A few more questions.

- Could this antenna be mounted on the ground (or a fence)? I have no obstructions to the S / SW for about 150 ft, then there are some single story houses.

- Also, since this antenna doesn't pick up VHF, do you have a recommendation on a VHF antenna for my other non-HD tv?

brim

brim
You don't want to mount the antenna on the ground, but you you can mount it just above the ground, just don't let the grass touch the back plane. When it gets wet, it will affect your reception. You might want to be careful, though, if someone walks into it they could get some good scratches or cuts, lots of sharp stuff. Best to keep it up where no one can bump into it.
VHF analog is another can of worms. Signal is blasting in all around you, very tough to get a clean shot of all the channels with one antenna. If you go with a small UHF/VHF from RatShack, and point it at QA hill, at least the major channels will look pretty good. Ch9-11-22 will be a little ghosty, and 13 will never come in good no matter what, different kind of signal. Keep this one up above the house at least 3ft and away from the HD antenna. Don't try to mix the two antennas, even though it can be easily done. It's better to keep them separate, trust me. The U/V combo is only about $25, give or take.
Dan

Originally posted by DrCrawn
no way....komo has problems. NYPD Blue is a mess right now for me.

Sorry, but I watched those shows last week and didn't have any issues except for that one audio drop out in Alias. As for NYPD Blue last night I had one instance with choppiness about 15 minutes into the show that lasted about a minute, tops, that was it. the rest of the show was flawless for me.

Originally posted by robglasser
Sorry, but I watched those shows last week and didn't have any issues except for that one audio drop out in Alias. As for NYPD Blue last night I had one instance with choppiness about 15 minutes into the show that lasted about a minute, tops, that was it. the rest of the show was flawless for me.

robglasser -

Your experience mirrors mine. I still see an occassional cluster of 3 or 4 short (half to one second) picture freezes, 6 to 10 seconds apart. Then the video is perfect for a long time. I suspect that it is a result of interference into KOMO's network satellite receiver. We are still looking for the source.

It is difficult for people to recognize the 'cliff effect' of digital reception. The picture is perfect right up to the point where the receiver can no longer decode the signal. Marginal signal level, impulse noise, multipath interference...all can put the receiver right on the edge of reception capability.

For over-the-air reception, a good outside antenna, properly placed, is the best assurance of a satisfactory HD experience. For Comcast customers, I think Dan Kurts is correct...signal level can affect the cable box, as well.

Don

Ok, would this be a good idea? I could get the Samsung SIR-T451 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jE0V30HNpEx/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=193550&id=detailed_info&i=305SIRT451) HDTV tuner from Crutchfield and try it for 30 days. They will even pay for return shipping. I am really curious as to how the reception would be here.

Originally posted by robglasser
Sorry, but I watched those shows last week and didn't have any issues except for that one audio drop out in Alias. As for NYPD Blue last night I had one instance with choppiness about 15 minutes into the show that lasted about a minute, tops, that was it. the rest of the show was flawless for me.

:rolleyes: I'm not the only one who has drop outs from KOMO consistently. None of the other stations has the problem. I got it all season during MNF, and I get it all the time during other primetime HD shows.
I'm not trying to bash KOMO, just being honest. I dont expect flawless production, but its a pattern that a lot of us would like to see go away.

And for the record, NYPD Blue was unwatchable for me early in the show. The stuttering continued into a commercial and went away. Last week's Lost was bad enough that I missed enough dialog to really frustrate me. Tonight's Lost had lots of picture distortion, but limited audio drop outs.
What can I tell ya?

Originally posted by Hi Ho
Ok, would this be a good idea? I could get the Samsung SIR-T451 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jE0V30HNpEx/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=193550&id=detailed_info&i=305SIRT451) HDTV tuner from Crutchfield and try it for 30 days. They will even pay for return shipping. I am really curious as to how the reception would be here.

Nothing wrong with the SIRTs. I use a 351. The major problem that everyone talks about is that the user interface/changing channels is slow.
Check out the LG models too.

Have you contacted KOMO? I have contacted them before with a few questions regarding the mono sound they broadcast with their analog signal (which I don't like) and they responded quickly and gave me a through answer.

EDIT: Thanks for the reply on the HD tuner. The Samsung is the only choice if I go with Crutchfields trial because it's the only one they carry.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
:rolleyes: I'm not the only one who has drop outs from KOMO consistently. None of the other stations has the problem. I got it all season during MNF, and I get it all the time during other primetime HD shows.
I'm not trying to bash KOMO, just being honest. I dont expect flawless production, but its a pattern that a lot of us would like to see go away.

And for the record, NYPD Blue was unwatchable for me early in the show. The stuttering continued into a commercial and went away. Last week's Lost was bad enough that I missed enough dialog to really frustrate me. Tonight's Lost had lots of picture distortion, but limited audio drop outs.
What can I tell ya?

DrCrawn
I believe you are having dropouts and problems with KOMO.
However, I have seen hundreds of reception problems just like yours, on one channel or many, on all the Seattle channels at one time or another. Causes vary a lot. Wrong flavor of antenna, poor install, multipath, mis aimed, staple in cable just enough to cause ingress, poor connections, a location that's fussy for a particular channel when all others are fine, AC power in the home being dirty or noisy, and just two days ago, really, a Samsung that was breaking up all the time on 3 channels, the rest were fine. When I looked at the "signal strength" on it's menu, it was high 90's for ALL channels, and my meter showed great waveshape. Brought in my ancient Panasonic TSU50, over air only tuner, all worked fine. He also had a HD tivo on the same system, it was working fine, and they're not as good as the Samsung for over air.
You could have any of the problems above and the net result would be breakups. Usually audio is the first to go when you get close to the edge of the decoders threshold. A little more and the picture and audio stutter, or freeze with tiling. Each tuner reacts a little different at the "edge". Cable HD boxes react almost the same. What fools people is that when it does lock in, the picture is gorgeous. They don't realize that the signal could really look bad on the meter, and still show 90%, and then take a hit so quick that you may not see the reading change much, or not at all. But you will still have ugliness!

If just a few people can get an almost flawless viewing of a show for an hour or more, then I would bet the problem is at your home. What, exactly, not sure, but could be any of the above or more.
Give me an address and I'll look it up to compare with what I've done near you, and my topo program. Also, what kind of antenna do you have?
Dan

The Mariners will be on local tv 140 times this year.

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/sea/news/sea_press_release.jsp?ymd=20040126&content_id=630885&vkey=pr_sea&fext=.jsp

107 games on FSN and 33 on UPN 11 (KSTW). Is there any chance that UPN would put the games on HD? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Japan gets a ton of M's games in HD, so I think the Safeco cameras are HD. Maybe the Japanese broadcast uses a different feed / camera crew? Anyone heard anything?
Tom

Originally posted by DrCrawn
:rolleyes: I'm not the only one who has drop outs from KOMO consistently. None of the other stations has the problem. I got it all season during MNF, and I get it all the time during other primetime HD shows.
I'm not trying to bash KOMO, just being honest. I dont expect flawless production, but its a pattern that a lot of us would like to see go away.

But if it's a problem you are having, that another person isn't having, chances are it's not KOMO's issue, but a reception issue.

Originally posted by Hi Ho
Ok, would this be a good idea? I could get the Samsung SIR-T451 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jE0V30HNpEx/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=193550&id=detailed_info&i=305SIRT451) HDTV tuner from Crutchfield and try it for 30 days. They will even pay for return shipping. I am really curious as to how the reception would be here.

It might help if you said where "here" is. But my main point is to point out an alternative that you might not be aware of: HDTV PC cards. They allow you to record and watch HDTV. For it to be economical, however, you'll likely need to have a PC sitting around that you could use, for the cards themselves cost between $150 and $250. Check out the HT Computers forum here.

Originally posted by TAB
The Mariners will be on local tv 140 times this year.

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/sea/news/sea_press_release.jsp?ymd=20040126&content_id=630885&vkey=pr_sea&fext=.jsp

107 games on FSN and 33 on UPN 11 (KSTW). Is there any chance that UPN would put the games on HD? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Japan gets a ton of M's games in HD, so I think the Safeco cameras are HD. Maybe the Japanese broadcast uses a different feed / camera crew? Anyone heard anything?
Tom

Last year none of the UPN games were HD. Comcast had 10-15 of the FSN games on in HD using the Japanese feed. It was very nice except what the commentators were talking about wasn't always the same as the picture shown.

I haven't seen any changes for this year, but that doesn't mean there won't be any changes.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
:rolleyes: I'm not the only one who has drop outs from KOMO consistently. None of the other stations has the problem. I got it all season during MNF, and I get it all the time during other primetime HD shows.
I'm not trying to bash KOMO, just being honest. I dont expect flawless production, but its a pattern that a lot of us would like to see go away.

And for the record, NYPD Blue was unwatchable for me early in the show. The stuttering continued into a commercial and went away. Last week's Lost was bad enough that I missed enough dialog to really frustrate me. Tonight's Lost had lots of picture distortion, but limited audio drop outs.
What can I tell ya?

I'm not saying the KOMO feed doesnt' have problems (see my comments on Lost last night below), but in regards to the exact 2 hours that Lost and Alias were on, on Feb. 23rd, between 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm, I personally, via OTA reception on a 4228, viewed through a Dish 921, did not expierence the problems the other poster viewed. That is all I'm saying. I can not speak for you, or anyone else, I only know what I viewed, just a few days ago (DVR).

Now, in regards to last night's Lost and Alias, this is a different story. About 5 minutes or so into Lost the picture started breaking up, Audio held in for a while, then it started cutting out. The breakups continue for about half the show, at one point it even showed I lost signal completely. About 35 - 40 minutes into the show the breakups slowed down and finally disapeared. Basically the entire back story for the Hurley character was ruined for me. I was able to get the gist of it but missed a large portion of it. As far as Alias, there was about 1 minute of audio breakup near the begining of the show and that was it, the rest of the show was flawless.

FSN is currently in the process of exploring several different options to expand their HD production offerings. There is a possibility that most of the games this year will be available in HD, but it would likely be on Comcast. If that occurs, it would be with FSN's own cameras, not taking the japanese feed as in the past. Decisions are supposed to be made in the next couple of weeks.

You are correct that NHK Japan has been producing HD baseball at Safeco for several years, but they are the only ones who have done so on a regular basis. There aren't really any cameras that are "Safeco's" except the ones for the Jumbotron. Each production generally has it's own cameras seperate from each other and the Jumbotron production. Often productions will share camera feeds for replays, but the live cameras almost always belong to the truck doing the show.

And that's probably more then you really wanted to know.

Brownnet


Originally posted by TAB
The Mariners will be on local tv 140 times this year.

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/sea/news/sea_press_release.jsp?ymd=20040126&content_id=630885&vkey=pr_sea&fext=.jsp

107 games on FSN and 33 on UPN 11 (KSTW). Is there any chance that UPN would put the games on HD? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Japan gets a ton of M's games in HD, so I think the Safeco cameras are HD. Maybe the Japanese broadcast uses a different feed / camera crew? Anyone heard anything?
Tom

Originally posted by robglasser
...

Now, in regards to last night's Lost and Alias, this is a different story. About 5 minutes or so into Lost the picture started breaking up, Audio held in for a while, then it started cutting out. The breakups continue for about half the show, at one point it even showed I lost signal completely. About 35 - 40 minutes into the show the breakups slowed down and finally disapeared. Basically the entire back story for the Hurley character was ruined for me. I was able to get the gist of it but missed a large portion of it. As far as Alias, there was about 1 minute of audio breakup near the begining of the show and that was it, the rest of the show was flawless.

I also had losts of strange video and audio glitches during Lost, different from previous KOMO-DT problems.

Don, any comments on these new glitches?

I am sick of people telling other people that it is their equipment and not KOMO.
I am not an idiot. I understand the difference between signal strengh problems and problems on their end. I am not going to get into this, but I can PROVE it is not my end. Enough said.
I really enjoy KOMO, I love the fact that they do solid news in HD. They really lead the way in terms of local HD content. I cant remember the last time I EVER had a drop out or similar watching local content from KOMO, including HD stuff. It is only when primetime shows come on that all hell breaks loose.
In particular I remember this season's premiere of Alias was SO glitchy at the beginning I simply changed channels and gave up. It was THAT bad.

But if you guys want to know, I live near Pine and Belmont up six stories with a DIRECT line of sight to all of the Queen Anne towers. I have the kind of reception some of you guys would kill for. Trust me the problem is not mine.

P.S. Is it just me, or is KOMO now sending program info to my on screen guide now? Was this a recent thing, I just noticed. Either way, it's awesome and now only KING5 needs to step it up, and WB22 too.

John,

Some of the antenna people here could comment better, but I'd think Pine and Belmont would also be an area with a huge potential for mutlipath issues (it certainly is for FM multipath).

But beyond that, I don't watch Alias or Lost (or much of anything on KOMO now that MNF is over), but if others can see the programs without issues, it's not likely to be a KOMO issue.

Finally, the screen data should be kicking in soon for all the channels. I don't remember the deadline, but it's pretty soon. I haven't checked the status of any of the locals in that regard for some time. Last time I checked only King had the information, and it was always 24 hours off!

Originally posted by brownnet
FSN is currently in the process of exploring several different options to expand their HD production offerings. There is a possibility that most of the games this year will be available in HD, but it would likely be on Comcast. If that occurs, it would be with FSN's own cameras, not taking the japanese feed as in the past. Decisions are supposed to be made in the next couple of weeks.

You are correct that NHK Japan has been producing HD baseball at Safeco for several years, but they are the only ones who have done so on a regular basis. There aren't really any cameras that are "Safeco's" except the ones for the Jumbotron. Each production generally has it's own cameras seperate from each other and the Jumbotron production. Often productions will share camera feeds for replays, but the live cameras almost always belong to the truck doing the show.

And that's probably more then you really wanted to know.

Brownnet

Thanks for the information - perfect. Good to hear that FSN is at least considering expanding HD. If only FSN was OTA (I'd even take D*); or if only an OTA HD channel would pick up the M's & Sonics. I'd watch every game.
Tom

Originally posted by robglasser
Now, in regards to last night's Lost and Alias, this is a different story. About 5 minutes or so into Lost the picture started breaking up, Audio held in for a while, then it started cutting out. The breakups continue for about half the show, at one point it even showed I lost signal completely. About 35 - 40 minutes into the show the breakups slowed down and finally disapeared. Basically the entire back story for the Hurley character was ruined for me. I was able to get the gist of it but missed a large portion of it. As far as Alias, there was about 1 minute of audio breakup near the begining of the show and that was it, the rest of the show was flawless. [/B]

I watched Lost last night. The first 30 seconds or so of Audio was missing (during the part where they were showing what had previously aired). Then later in the show, don't remember where, there were a couple of "hops".

I agree that KOMO still appears to have the most problems when it comes to a consistent, solid picture. If I'm tuned to a KOMO HD broadcast show, I expect a problem or two will surface during the show at some point. I even saw some glitches during the Academy Awards, but I don't remember where. Fortunately, it did not last a long time.

If there are people watching the same show and the same time and they aren't experiencing the same problems then how can it be on KOMO's end?

Originally posted by Hi Ho
If there are people watching the same show and the same time and they aren't experiencing the same problems then how can it be on KOMO's end?

KOMO's technicians have commented on this several times here. Part of the problem is that different receivers act differently to these issues, even if they're caused at KOMO's end. Nevertheless, they're aware of issues with their network feeds and are working to correct them.

Originally posted by litzdog911
KOMO's technicians have commented on this several times here. Part of the problem is that different receivers act differently to these issues, even if they're caused at KOMO's end. Nevertheless, they're aware of issues with their network feeds and are working to correct them.

I saw the problems with Lost and Alias last night, as well. In checking with the KOMO engineering department today. I was told that they tweaked the bit rate on the HD encoder last night and it seemed to stabilize the signal. So far today I have not seen a problem.

Lost and Alias seem to be, as my Dad used to say, "snake bitten". It seems that when problems show up, that's where it is. I can assure you that the techs are painfully aware of this and doing everything they can to resolve it.

This doesn't account for all the problems that I am hearing about here. Many of the programs that viewers complain about, are clean for me here in Mukilteo. We are still learning about this stuff

Don

Originally posted by Karyk
John,

Some of the antenna people here could comment better, but I'd think Pine and Belmont would also be an area with a huge potential for mutlipath issues (it certainly is for FM multipath).

But beyond that, I don't watch Alias or Lost (or much of anything on KOMO now that MNF is over), but if others can see the programs without issues, it's not likely to be a KOMO issue.

Finally, the screen data should be kicking in soon for all the channels. I don't remember the deadline, but it's pretty soon. I haven't checked the status of any of the locals in that regard for some time. Last time I checked only King had the information, and it was always 24 hours off!

I hope the "John," was a joke on your part ;) .

As far as multipath issues, explain to me how I can watch KOMO all day long without a single issue, not one, and then when primetime HD shows come on, I get interference? No... it just doesnt make any sense.

There are numerous people here who have specific problems with KOMO. KOMO has been very upfront with us all and admitted they are working on these issues.

I can't understand how there are people still coming here and saying there is no problem. It has been confirmed that these problems exist for many many people in Seattle area. And it's all KOMO related.

That being said, I hope these problems get fixed, unfortunately we were led to believe that they may be solved soon, but in fact they continue.

But I guess I can't complain too much, I am pulling HD magically out of the air for free. Nothing is perfect in life, that's for sure.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
I hope the "John," was a joke on your part ;) ..

Let me guess. You're not a doctor either! :D

I didn't read the second word in your signature, so didn't get the joke.

Don, there hasnt been any primetime HD yet, nor will there be tonight. That is when I get the pops, freezes, skips, etc. It's always the national shows in HD that you show, never SD and never KOMO News in HD that have problems.

Originally posted by Karyk
Let me guess. You're not a doctor either! :D

I didn't read the second word in your signature, so didn't get the joke.

Nobody gets my screename :( . It's from "The Kentucky Fried Movie."

Dr. Claw from the skit, "A Fistful of Yen."

The guy couldnt pronounce his name, Dr. Claw. He says it more like Dr. Crawn. because of the accent.

Anyway, that's that.

So no, I am not a doctor, but you may call me Dr. Crawn :p

Originally posted by DrCrawn
I hope the "John," was a joke on your part ;) .

As far as multipath issues, explain to me how I can watch KOMO all day long without a single issue, not one, and then when primetime HD shows come on, I get interference? No... it just doesnt make any sense.

There are numerous people here who have specific problems with KOMO. KOMO has been very upfront with us all and admitted they are working on these issues.

I can't understand how there are people still coming here and saying there is no problem. It has been confirmed that these problems exist for many many people in Seattle area. And it's all KOMO related.

That being said, I hope these problems get fixed, unfortunately we were led to believe that they may be solved soon, but in fact they continue.

But I guess I can't complain too much, I am pulling HD magically out of the air for free. Nothing is perfect in life, that's for sure.

DrCrawn
Now that you've filled us in with more details on your reception problem, I would agree, it does appear to be coming from KOMO's broadcasts of network feeds. I would also agree with Don@KOMO, that some receivers are more sensitive than others to various transmission problems. I remember a year or so ago KING had a similar problem with certain SONY receivers, and it didn't affect any other brands. Once KING worked it out, there was no more trouble. This would explain why some are getting along better than you are.

As for KOMO leading you to believe problems are fixed when they still exist, you need to know that there are MANY parts and software bits floating around in all their toys. They identify a problem, fix it, verify it no longer exists, but then something else goes gunny-sack. The part that was fixed is still working okay, but the net result (the final transmission signal you see) might still be comprimised in the same way. It's one of the frustrating parts of being a tech. It's also how we learn and make things better. Once you fix a really nagging problem that defies all logic, you feel like Jonas Salk for discovering the cure, and NEVER, EVER forget what to do the next time it happens ! As Don said, they're still learning, as is everyone down the TV line. When you can get through a complete show glitch free, then you can start to smile.
And maybe let Don and all of us know what you saw, or didn't !

"Make with the positive waves, Moriarity, make with the positive waves!"
Donald Sutherland to Gavin MacLeod, Kelly's Heroe's.

Dan

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Nobody gets my screename :( . It's from "The Kentucky Fried Movie."

I haven't seen that since I saw it years ago in the theater. Probably 1977 or 1978.

I had just added on older movie to my Netflix list, but wasn't really happy with the choice (The Front) so I went and changed it to KFM. From what I remember, I don't know that it will stand the test of time, but I'm willing to give it a try.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Nobody gets my screename :( . It's from "The Kentucky Fried Movie."

Dr. Claw from the skit, "A Fistful of Yen."

The guy couldnt pronounce his name, Dr. Claw. He says it more like Dr. Crawn. because of the accent.

Anyway, that's that.

So no, I am not a doctor, but you may call me Dr. Crawn :p

Ahhhh, now I get it. I used to know the Zucker brothers and Jim Abrahams before they went Hollywood. They were part of a skit group called Kentucky Fried Theater in Madison, WI where I went to school ('68-'72). They were hilarious even back then and I think the inventors of the original "fried egg with bacon imitation" bit seen on Carson once. I haven't seen KFM for many years - must add it to Netflix queue.

On another note, I had a strange audio problem with my Samsung receiver with KOMO broadcasts 2 years ago. It went away went I updated the firmware in the box. Nobody else was reporting this problem at the time. So odd things can happen on both ends of the transmission. You may be dealing with both types in your case. I still have occasional hiccups on KOMO network programs (via OTA) but nothing like what you report.

VOOM is going out of business and is no longer taking new customer orders. They have shut down their website.
My question is: Would a VOOM reciever be able to pick up my local HD broadcasts? I'm only asking because I'm willing to bet you will be able to pick one up pretty cheap off Ebay in the near furture.

James

Originally posted by Whidbey
VOOM is going out of business and is no longer taking new customer orders. They have shut down their website.
My question is: Would a VOOM reciever be able to pick up my local HD broadcasts? I'm only asking because I'm willing to bet you will be able to pick one up pretty cheap off Ebay in the near furture.

James

Yes, a subscribed VOOM receiver can receive OTA ATSC broadcasts. But nobody knows yet if that capability will remain when VOOM goes "dark" and its receivers are no longer subscribed. Lots of speculation here ....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=515000

but nobody knows for sure yet.

Voooooooooooommm..................screeeeeeeeeeeeeeech......

and to think I was this ->| |<- close to getting Voom at one point. I hope for the sake of current user's they don't fold their tent.

Is there something going on with Channel 13-1?

I tried to tune it in today on my Dish 921 and it said "channel not available." I re-scanned all the digitial channels, and I was still not able to pick anything up. I normally get a booming signal for Channel 13's HD broadcast, but now I get nothing.

Anybody know what's going on?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve - checked out OK at 5:30 PM via OTA for me...

Originally posted by quarque
Steve - checked out OK at 5:30 PM via OTA for me...

Strange .. I just checked again at 6:30 PM ... I'm getting a "125" signal reading on my Dish 921 for Channel 13-1, but no programming.

I'm on top of a hill with clear line of sight to the Channel 13 tower, so I don't understand what might be causing this.

Thanks for the feedback Quarque, I'll keep checking. I want to get it working before "24" tomorrow. ;)

Steve - I have had a similar problem in the past with other stations. The cure seems to be re-scanning (memorize channels) on my Samsung. Perhaps you need to just keep trying the re-scan.

Quarqe,

I just re-scanned my digital channels again -- second time today.

The 921 picks up a signal from 13-1 and adds it to my list, but when I try to watch that channel it says "Channel 13-1 Not Found" even though the signal meter shows "125" (max. reading) for that channel.

This is very strange because 13-1 has come in perfectly for months. This is the first time I've had a problem with it.

Dan Kurts, you did the antenna install at my house on top of the hill in Somerset, so you are familiar with my set up. Any idea what might be happening? Channel 9-5 comes in fine, which is the same tower location from my house as Channel 13, right?


I'm really confused, and I will be bummed if I can't fix this before tomorrow night. Now that football season is over, "24" is the only show I watch on Fox.

SteveCoug,

Channel 13 (18-1) is on Gold Mountain near Bremerton. Channels 9, 11 and 22 are on Capitol Hill together.

Problem Solved! :)

I finally decided to try rebooting my Dish 921 instead of just re-scanning the digital channels.

So I unplugged the power cord, waited 30 seconds, then plugged it back in. That forced the 921 to go through its entite boot sequence including acquiring satelite signals, etc.

When it finally finished booting up and came back online, there was Channel 13-1 looking as good as ever!

So if you own a DVR, it's good to remember that they are just a big computer. And like a PC, about 95% of the problems can be solved by rebooting the machine.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Quarqe,

I just re-scanned my digital channels again -- second time today.

The 921 picks up a signal from 13-1 and adds it to my list, but when I try to watch that channel it says "Channel 13-1 Not Found" even though the signal meter shows "125" (max. reading) for that channel.

This is very strange because 13-1 has come in perfectly for months. This is the first time I've had a problem with it.

Dan Kurts, you did the antenna install at my house on top of the hill in Somerset, so you are familiar with my set up. Any idea what might be happening? Channel 9-5 comes in fine, which is the same tower location from my house as Channel 13, right?


I'm really confused, and I will be bummed if I can't fix this before tomorrow night. Now that football season is over, "24" is the only show I watch on Fox.

Steve
The fact your "strength" indicator shows a high reading, indicates the transmitter and antenna is working for that particular channel. The carrier, or what the actual video and sound rides on, is what it's reading. If there were a signal being received, but no picture being sent, you would still be getting the same reading. However, since others are getting it okay, then you have a problem with the receiver. If the antenna were the problem, you would not get any reading. A year or so back, the Hughes/Toshiba/Mitsubishi's did a similar thing, where they lost some information in the tuning memory and a simple rescan would bring it back. Some tuners actively search, just like your analog tuners, and even FM radios, for the signal and readjust their frequencies, slightly, to compensate for minor frequency drift in their tuners. It's usually called Auto Frequency Control, or AFC. In digitally synthesized tuners, there are various fancy names for it, but it all boils down to active synchronization.
As for your problem, I have not had much experience with the Dish 921. I have seen many different brands fail, sometimes, just like that. This week I had a Samsung 165 do exactly the same thing on 3 channels. Meter looked good, other channels were okay and locked in, did a rescan, including the old trick of removing and reinserting the zip code, no help. Got my own receiver from the truck, it worked fine. All the satellite channels almost always work in these situations, because they are using a different tuner.

I think you have a bad air tuner. Try leaving it unplugged, not just powered off, for few hours or until it gets completely cold to the touch. Then reboot, rescan and see what you get. If it works, then it's dying. It may be good for a few hours, days or weeks, but it will fail again. Get a new one on order.
Dan

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Problem Solved! :)

I finally decided to try rebooting my Dish 921 instead of just re-scanning the digital channels.

So I unplugged the power cord, waited 30 seconds, then plugged it back in. That forced the 921 to go through its entite boot sequence including acquiring satelite signals, etc.

When it finally finished booting up and came back online, there was Channel 13-1 looking as good as ever!

So if you own a DVR, it's good to remember that they are just a big computer. And like a PC, about 95% of the problems can be solved by rebooting the machine.

Steve
Good news, but don't hold your breath. It may be on it's way out. Keep an eye on the expiration date of the warranty, and jot down the fail or crash dates on a note and leave it under it. If you have to send it in, you'll have some history.
Dan

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Problem Solved! :)

I finally decided to try rebooting my Dish 921 instead of just re-scanning the digital channels.

So I unplugged the power cord, waited 30 seconds, then plugged it back in. That forced the 921 to go through its entite boot sequence including acquiring satelite signals, etc.

When it finally finished booting up and came back online, there was Channel 13-1 looking as good as ever!

So if you own a DVR, it's good to remember that they are just a big computer. And like a PC, about 95% of the problems can be solved by rebooting the machine.

Also take into account that it is a DISH 921. Rebooting or throwing it out the window are ALWAYS open options for that receiver. Hopefully Dish gets their act together and fixes it before too long.

Glad to hear your OTA is working again.

-Bill

UPN's "HD To The Max" @ 5pm Sunday

Is this a new program? Today they showed "Cronos". A 1hr HD program. This is IMAX stuff! I'm liking OTA more and more every day...

Originally posted by scenic
UPN's "HD To The Max" @ 5pm Sunday

Is this a new program? Today they showed "Cronos". A 1hr HD program. This is IMAX stuff! I'm liking OTA more and more every day...

OTA HDTV blows away the offerings by Comcast and Satellite providers. Get a capure card for your PC and you can record this excellent broadcast HDTV television for future viewing. :)

Originally posted by wlong
Also take into account that it is a DISH 921. Rebooting or throwing it out the window are ALWAYS open options for that receiver. Hopefully Dish gets their act together and fixes it before too long.

Glad to hear your OTA is working again.

-Bill

Have you had problems with the 921?

I have been very happy with mine so far, except for the
Channel 13-1 screw up yesterday.

Something more I should know?

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Have you had problems with the 921?

I have been very happy with mine so far, except for the
Channel 13-1 screw up yesterday.

Something more I should know?

Mine has been pretty good, though I have experienced a few of the documented bugs. If you really want to know about the known issues I suggest you check out the following website:

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73

Originally posted by robglasser
Mine has been pretty good, though I have experienced a few of the documented bugs. If you really want to know about the known issues I suggest you check out the following website:

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73

Wow!

I had no idea there were so many known "bugs" with the 921 system. I guess I am lucky that I have not many problems so far. I have noticed the occassional audio drop-outs in DVR recordings. I did not know that was a known bug. I hope these are fixed in the next software update.

BTW, I called Dish Network tech support today and they told me that the OTA channel drop out problem that I experienced is a software issue. Hopefully it will also be fixed with the next upgrade.

Hey folks,

I'm wading into the world of OTA HD reception and need some advice. I live in the Cascade foothills east of Duvall and am trying to gauge whether OTA HD reception is even viable for me. I've seen antennaweb.org (we're ~40 miles away) and looked at a topo profile that would indicate that I'm within about 10' of having line of sight (not counting structures and trees) to most of the broadcast antennas in the area.

My main concern is that we have a number (I think the correct term is a forest ) of 40-50' deciduous trees and a large powerline run between us and the antennas in question.

Are these issues that I can overcome at first blush and if so what types of equipment am I looking at needing? I realize that outside antennas are probably going to be required, but am relatively clueless about any other equipment I might need for success.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

-Ted

Originally posted by TedSittner
Hey folks,

I'm wading into the world of OTA HD reception and need some advice. I live in the Cascade foothills east of Duvall and am trying to gauge whether OTA HD reception is even viable for me. I've seen antennaweb.org (we're ~40 miles away) and looked at a topo profile that would indicate that I'm within about 10' of having line of sight (not counting structures and trees) to most of the broadcast antennas in the area.

My main concern is that we have a number (I think the correct term is a forest ) of 40-50' deciduous trees and a large powerline run between us and the antennas in question.

Are these issues that I can overcome at first blush and if so what types of equipment am I looking at needing? I realize that outside antennas are probably going to be required, but am relatively clueless about any other equipment I might need for success.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

-Ted

Ted
Send an address and I can give you a better idea.
Dan

Originally posted by wlong
OTA HDTV blows away the offerings by Comcast and Satellite providers. Get a capure card for your PC and you can record this excellent broadcast HDTV television for future viewing. :)

I have an lst-3410a dvr, so I can record all the hd stuff I want. I do need to get some virtual dvhs sw for my xp/pc though.

Originally posted by scenic
I have an lst-3410a dvr, so I can record all the hd stuff I want. I do need to get some virtual dvhs sw for my xp/pc though.

How are you going to run the HD content from the LST-3410a to your PC?

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Have you had problems with the 921?

I have been very happy with mine so far, except for the
Channel 13-1 screw up yesterday.

Something more I should know?

No, I decided against buying the 921 due to all of the horror stories on the net about it.

See DBSTalk (linked above) and www.satelliteguys.us.

I just couldnt convince myself to hand DISH $550 for a HD-DVR that doesnt work as it is supposed to and will be obsolete when they switch to MPEG-4.

I went the myHD MDP-130 + Linkplayer2 route. I needed a new DVD player anyhow and as soon as I figure out how to record DISH SD channels onto my PC I will be pretty close to the same config as the 921 would have given me (sans recording HDNet, ESPN-HD, TNT-HD, etc.) and it will continue to work post-MPEG4 and allow me to archive programs to HDD's or even DVD's.

I live in the Echo Lake area in Snohomish in an area with a lot of trees, so DISH is my only option, other than Millenium Digital Media (which doesn't have any HDTV content yet.) even DirecTV cannot get a signal with my tree situation (yet OTA HD works great at ~85% signal).

-Bill

Originally posted by wlong
How are you going to run the HD content from the LST-3410a to your PC?


It has a firewire/1394 i/o port. I just need sw for my pc to appear like a dvhs for my lg box to recognize. There's an lst-3410a mega thread that has or gives reference to this info.

East/West satellite feeds.

Did a lookup for someone in Port Ludlow, hopeless for OTA except 13. So just for grins, I called up the satellite folks and gave them his zip code , and WHOA ! They said he could have it!! Thats the ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX in both SD and HD from New York and LA. Pretty cool.
In the past I was told you had to have the waivers to get this. They said that's still true, but if your zip code is not on the "condemned" list, which they can look up, you can have it. I promptly gave them some other examples, Duvall, Issaquah, Ravensdale, Spanaway, and some others out in the boonies, all failed. But, hey, it's worth a shot. This guy was just over 25 miles from QA hill. You have to ask if it's possible to get High Definition East/West feeds at your address/zip code, NOT local HD. That's another can of worms.
Spoke at length with a second level mgr, mentioned how their people at the CES show said it was mainly a matter of who you talk to at the time you order it. He said anyone caught giving it out to a zip code on the list would be fired, as it's illegal. If you had it prior to the ruling they did a year or so back, then you're grandfathered in, but no new ones. I mentioned that Seattle was being left out of the new Local HD feeds because we were not on the top ten market list, and it might be quite a while before we see it, so why not just allow us the East/West feeds. We shouldn't need waivers for that, as we obvioulsy can't receive LA or NY over air. He said it's up to the local stations here to allow that. And we all know what their answer is. He said they would be happy to make more money and do it without having to add any more satellites. It's all up to the broadcasters.
So..........

For those of you out in the weeds, that have or want to have satellite HD and the feeds, costs nothing to ask, you might be able to get it. I think it's about $4.95/mo extra for all 4 networks. And for those that don't have HD, you can still use the feeds, specially if you like to watch programming from those cities, or want to watch the network shows 3-4 hours earlier. You would need an HD dish, though. Several of my customers have these feeds, and they love 'em.
It's not impossible.....

Dan

Dan, by any chance was Yelm on your list? I am definitely out in the weeds
and have a terrible time with a good consistent OTA feed on the HD broadcasts.

Currently have a 2nd floor chimney mounted cm-4228 run in on 56' of coax which works great until the weather turns to rain. I then loose 1 channel. The dish 921 that I am using to decode the HDTV signal shows the gain going from 70-65 then to zero then back up to 70-65. Tried amplifying the signal with cm-7775 but it got worse. Should I try another antenna? Any recommendation would be appreciated re amplification or attenuation or anything that you think might help (but I really want to avoid going to a rotor if it is at all possible.) Zip code is 98012 22 miles north of Seattle. The antenna is directly pointed in the direction of the one channel that I loose signal on and according to antennaweb that station should be easy to get (komo-dt=yellow). King is at approx the same compass point and also a yellow and it's signal strength is 100+ all the time. At the same time UPN is supposed to be a red station and it comes in at a plus 100 no matter where I point the antenna in the general direction of south-southwest. (The only other channel that I can't get is KONG..but that is all the time, not just during rain and I am not too concerned about it.)

Originally posted by radtek
Dan, by any chance was Yelm on your list? I am definitely out in the weeds
and have a terrible time with a good consistent OTA feed on the HD broadcasts.

radtek
Thought about ya, but wasn't near my PC, and was only going from what's left of my memory. Just call them and ask. If they say yes, sign up right away while you have them on the phone! You will enjoy it. I've been watching it at my customers house for weeks while doing other work on his system. It's been a hoot listening to the LA people whine about the rain!!
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Currently have a 2nd floor chimney mounted cm-4228 run in on 56' of coax which works great until the weather turns to rain. I then loose 1 channel. The dish 921 that I am using to decode the HDTV signal shows the gain going from 70-65 then to zero then back up to 70-65. Tried amplifying the signal with cm-7775 but it got worse. Should I try another antenna? Any recommendation would be appreciated re amplification or attenuation or anything that you think might help (but I really want to avoid going to a rotor if it is at all possible.) Zip code is 98012 22 miles north of Seattle. The antenna is directly pointed in the direction of the one channel that I loose signal on and according to antennaweb that station should be easy to get (komo-dt=yellow). King is at approx the same compass point and also a yellow and it's signal strength is 100+ all the time. At the same time UPN is supposed to be a red station and it comes in at a plus 100 no matter where I point the antenna in the general direction of south-southwest. (The only other channel that I can't get is KONG..but that is all the time, not just during rain and I am not too concerned about it.)

Chuck
Before you swap it out, try the 7775 again, but put a RatShack adjustable attenuator on it, set for max, connected just before the receiver. Then see what you get. Write down your readings on all channels. Turn it back about 10%, then do the readings again. Then do it again, and again. See what happens, let me know.
When you see it bounce the readings, it's because you're right on the edge of a weak signal. The rain makes the wet tree limbs block more signal, and it puts you over the edge. The fact it works as well as it does says your getting a pretty good signal, but the weakness or the wave shape of the signal (something you need a meter to see) is just a bit too ragged.
If that doesn't work, then it's time for a 4248. Call me and I'll give you some tips before you mount it.
Direction from that area is not that critical. It's trying to find your way through the trees that's fussy, and the 4248 can be very narrow, a good thing for you. The 4228 is very wide, and may be part of the problem.
Dan
206-794-3993

Thought about ya, but wasn't near my PC, and was only going from what's left of my memory. Just call them and ask. If they say yes, sign up right away while you have them on the phone! You will enjoy it. I've been watching it at my customers house for weeks while doing other work on his system. It's been a hoot listening to the LA people whine about the rain!!
Dan

Dan, I finally got a chance to call D* and was told that unfortunately I am not on the eligible list to receive the east/west HD feeds. I explained to him that I am about 50 miles from the main network broadcast towers and that this wasn't Kansas Toto, and we had a few hills to contend with.
He said the best he could do was put me on the bitch list that they will turn in to some higher authority, he mentioned the Feds and new regs etc., and all I could do was wait patiently to see if anything became of this. I told him thank you but I would not hold my breath until something is accomplished. So I guess its back fighting for a signal down here with my OTA antennas.
Radtek

I am not able to hear sound through my stereo system while watching HD OTA.

I run my audio through my stereo and it works fine as long as I am not watching HD but, as soon as I switch over -- I only have audio through my TV speakers. Why?

Thanks,

Glyn

Originally posted by TPring98055
I am not able to hear sound through my stereo system while watching HD OTA.

I run my audio through my stereo and it works fine as long as I am not watching HD but, as soon as I switch over -- I only have audio through my TV speakers. Why?

Thanks,

Glyn

Need more information ....

* Brand/model of HD Receiver, AV Receiver and TV?
* How is everything connected (cables, connectors, inputs/outptus)?
* Does this happen on all HD OTA channels all of the time, or just when they're broadcasting Dolby Digital 5.1 audio?

Originally posted by litzdog911
Need more information ....

* Brand/model of HD Receiver, AV Receiver and TV?
* How is everything connected (cables, connectors, inputs/outptus)?
* Does this happen on all HD OTA channels all of the time, or just when they're broadcasting Dolby Digital 5.1 audio?


I have a Samsung T151 tuner using component video cables and
RCA analog cables into a Hitachi 57" rear-projection screen TV [2003],
and from the TV I have RCA analog cables feeding into my Pioneer
200w stereo receiver [early-mid 90's model].

I discovered that sound is coming through the stereo but, the
volume level has to be cranked up all the way to get the equivalent
level of a DVD or VCR tape [which only has to be turned up halfway].
The DVD player uses an S-video cable instead of component, the VCR
uses RCA video cables.

I switch audio [within HD tuner] between Dolby 5.1 and PCM but, I can't
detect any difference.

My stereo receiver has outputs for rear speakers, a center speaker and
a center amp, however, I am not using them [just left & right speakers
with subwoofer]. Also, the receiver has options for Dolby ProLogic,
simulated surround, and 3ch Logic.

And if I plug the audio RCA plugs from the HD tuner into the phono jacks
on the Pioneer, I can only turn it to the first volume notch -- and it
has a lot of distortion.

TPring - I'm not sure about your TV but mine requires you to program how the audio is distributed to the rear panel on the TV. If I select the "variable output" mode it proportions the audio output to the volume level on the TV. Since these are "Line Out" not "Speaker out" connections the level is very low until I crank the TV all the way up. If I select "Fixed Output" mode for audio, the volume is at "line level" which is full volume like off your DVD player. You need to investigate the Audio setup on your TV menus. You might want to consider connecting your HD audio directly to the receiver. Digitial is best if supported; analog will work too, but won't give you anything other than stereo or fake-surround sound.

The Phono input on a receiver is for output from a turntable cartridge which has very low signals and a different frequency response curve. Anything other than a turntable will sound loud and distorted.

Originally posted by TPring98055
I have a Samsung T151 tuner using component video cables and
RCA analog cables into a Hitachi 57" rear-projection screen TV [2003],
and from the TV I have RCA analog cables feeding into my Pioneer
200w stereo receiver [early-mid 90's model].

I discovered that sound is coming through the stereo but, the
volume level has to be cranked up all the way to get the equivalent
level of a DVD or VCR tape [which only has to be turned up halfway].
The DVD player uses an S-video cable instead of component, the VCR
uses RCA video cables.

I switch audio [within HD tuner] between Dolby 5.1 and PCM but, I can't
detect any difference.

My stereo receiver has outputs for rear speakers, a center speaker and
a center amp, however, I am not using them [just left & right speakers
with subwoofer]. Also, the receiver has options for Dolby ProLogic,
simulated surround, and 3ch Logic.

And if I plug the audio RCA plugs from the HD tuner into the phono jacks
on the Pioneer, I can only turn it to the first volume notch -- and it
has a lot of distortion.

TP
You are obviously not using the digital 5.1 surround, so go into the menu of the Samsung and turn it off. You are only using your Pioneer as a stereo receiver, with only 2 speakers, so set the audio for stereo only, no dolby or 3ch sounds. If you have an option on the Pioneer for Analog/Digital/Auto, then set it for Analog, so it won't switch over, either, even though you have no digital input to it.
Last, go into the Hitachi and make sure it's audio outputs are set for stereo only, no surround.
Your problem is most likely when the Hitachi hears dolby or surround coming in on it's audio input, it's switching the audio outputs to a surround set of audio outs, that you're not using. Since your TV doesn't have surround speakers built in, it keeps playing stereo, but shut's off the normal stereo audio out.
To be sure it's fixed, do all the above and you'll be fine.
Also, if you use the TV volume control to adjust sound level, for both the Pioneer and TV, then set the audio output option on the TV (Fixed or Variable) to Variable. Then both the TV and Pioneer sound will go up and down together.
Dan

I've been using my CM4228 connected to my DishPVR 921 for about a month now and on a scale of 1 - 125 on the signal meter here is what I get for each station:

KOMO: 112 - 116
KING: 125
KIRO: 125
KCTS: Can't lock in, bounces between 0 - 70
KSTW: 125
KCPQ: 90 - 100 (periodically drops out for a few seconds to a minute)
KONG: 116 - 125
WB22: 116 - 125
KTBC: 100 - 107

This is with the Antenna pointed directly towards Queen Anne. If I rotate it slightly to the west to get a better angle on KCPQ the signal for it goes up to 107 - 116 and no longer drops out. The downside is I lose KSTW, it goes to bouncing between 0 - 70. Also, KONG goes down to about 100 but seems stable. This is is a matter of rotating the antenna maybe 5 degrees, not much at all.

I've tried the ratshack attenuator and didn't appear to help or hinder my situation. I'd rather not move my antenna to another part of the roof. It's currently on the higher part of my roof on the far end of the house in a more discreet location.

I'm wondering if an amplifier, like a CM 7775 would help me out here? Since I can't seem to find one locally, returning it if it didn't help me would probably be a pain so I'd rather not spend the money if it's not going to help.

Thanks

Rob:
Sounds like you could use a rotator. My issue was very similar to yours, 13.1 going in and out. Now I've got the Channelmaster 9521A rotator (with CM 4228) and it works wonderfully. Now I can rotate the antenna from my couch with the remote and get all channels without glitches. Highly recommend.
Tom

Originally posted by TAB
Rob:
Sounds like you could use a rotator. My issue was very similar to yours, 13.1 going in and out. Now I've got the Channelmaster 9521A rotator (with CM 4228) and it works wonderfully. Now I can rotate the antenna from my couch with the remote and get all channels without glitches. Highly recommend.
Tom

Ya, I've thought of that too, but I'd rather not go that route if I don't have to. I watch most of my programming time shifted by recording it to my 921 first. If I rely on a rotator I know it's only a matter of time when my antenna is rotated the wrong direction for a show I want to record. Basically this is what I'm doing manually once a week so I can record Star Trek Enterprise in HD, other than that I never watch channel 11. This will change after April 4th though because Baseball season starts. What I'm really hoping is that I can throw an amplifier on the antenna and it will boost channel 13 up to the point it doesn't drop out and I can leave my antenna facing queen anne. Heck, maybe I'd even get lucky and boost channel 9 to an acceptable level.

Originally posted by robglasser
Ya, I've thought of that too, but I'd rather not go that route if I don't have to. I watch most of my programming time shifted by recording it to my 921 first. If I rely on a rotator I know it's only a matter of time when my antenna is rotated the wrong direction for a show I want to record. Basically this is what I'm doing manually once a week so I can record Star Trek Enterprise in HD, other than that I never watch channel 11. This will change after April 4th though because Baseball season starts. What I'm really hoping is that I can throw an amplifier on the antenna and it will boost channel 13 up to the point it doesn't drop out and I can leave my antenna facing queen anne. Heck, maybe I'd even get lucky and boost channel 9 to an acceptable level.

Another idea that has worked for me and some others here ....

You can use two antennas. Aim one at QA/CH for the Seattle stations and another at Bremerton for KCPQ. You'll need a ChannelMaster JoinTenna to combine the KCPQ (channel 18) antenna with your other antenna. This works well in our area because KCPQ on channel 18 is the lowest frequency UHF channel, the next highest being channel 25 (KTWB). You can buy the JoinTenna from Warren Electronics.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Another idea that has worked for me and some others here ....

You can use two antennas. Aim one at QA/CH for the Seattle stations and another at Bremerton for KCPQ. You'll need a ChannelMaster JoinTenna to combine the KCPQ (channel 18) antenna with your other antenna. This works well in our area because KCPQ on channel 18 is the lowest frequency UHF channel, the next highest being channel 25 (KTWB). You can buy the JoinTenna from Warren Electronics.

How far apart would these antennas need to be? i.e. could I cut my 4228 in half, simply angle one half one way, one half the other on the same mast to seperate cables, and then use the jointenna? I'd think they'd interfere with each other but figured I'd ask. I'd hate to have 2 of these beasts on the roof and from what Dan has posted it seems a 4221 (aka half a 4228) would work just as well in my location.

rob - you can't *easily* cut the 4228 in half. You can get a 4221 or equal for about $30 and it probably would get all the stations with a single orientation. The 4228 is fairly directional and your installation proves that pretty clearly, despite what others say. It only seems to have a wide beamwidth when you are close to the tansmitters (but then, many antennas will also). An amplifier probably won't help you. If you are going to throw money at something I'd get a 4221 or similar 4-bay bowtie. Radio Shack also has a cheap yagi for $25 (15-2160) that would be worth trying.

FYI, regarding the cheap yagi from Radio Shack, from SE Renton, with my RS yagi 15-2160, I receive
Gold Mountain to the west - KCPQ (264º, 31 miles),
Tiger Mountain stations to the east - misc. (51º, 10 miles),
Queen Anne stations - KING, KOMO, KIRO, KONG (306º, 15 miles) and
Capitol Hill stations - KCTS, KSTW, KTWB (310º, 13 miles).

So the "sweep reach" is 147º and that is the limit. Rotating either direction even slightly loses the west-most or east-most stations. I actually have it favoring Gold Mountain because there is no HDTV and nothing digital that I care to watch from Tiger Mountain stations.

Originally posted by robglasser
How far apart would these antennas need to be? i.e. could I cut my 4228 in half, simply angle one half one way, one half the other on the same mast to seperate cables, and then use the jointenna? I'd think they'd interfere with each other but figured I'd ask. I'd hate to have 2 of these beasts on the roof and from what Dan has posted it seems a 4221 (aka half a 4228) would work just as well in my location.

The benefit of the JoinTenna is that you don't need to be so concerned about distances and wavelengths when combining antennas. The JoinTenna provides internal filters that isolate the two antennas. It's not perfect, but we're lucky that KCPQ is the lowest frequency UHF station we care about (Ch 18), while the Seattle stations at Ch 25 and above. This means that the JoinTenna's filter, when you order the one tuned for Ch 18, does a good job of combining those two antennas.

Originally posted by robglasser
How far apart would these antennas need to be? i.e. could I cut my 4228 in half, simply angle one half one way, one half the other on the same mast to seperate cables, and then use the jointenna? I'd think they'd interfere with each other but figured I'd ask. I'd hate to have 2 of these beasts on the roof and from what Dan has posted it seems a 4221 (aka half a 4228) would work just as well in my location.

robglasser
quarque has the right idea. Use another antenna, forget the preamp. The fact the attenuator didn't make much difference suggests you have a decent amount of signal level.
Cutting a 4228 in half is fairly easy. You do have to drill out the rivets, and replace them with some bolts and nuts, pick up some more clamps at RatShack and cutting the screen just requires strong side cutters, but it's not rocket science.

However, from what you described above, after separation you will change the reception capability enough that I would bet you may have more problems than solutions. A 4221 would be okay for 13, mounted above the 4228 on the same mast, but not knowing how strong the mast and mounting is, you might have problems in a good wind. A better try would be the 15-2160 from RatShack. It's smaller, cheaper, more directional, and if it doesn't work, take it back. Use the ch18 Jointenna and you should be okay. Mount the Jointenna behind the screen on the 4228. That way it will help keep out other channels from leaking in through the plastic housing. They used to be made out of metal, which blocked any ingress, but that's progress! I don't think it will be a big problem. Never hurts to get every advantage.

The 4228 is NOT directional, really. A meter will prove it. At first you might think that, but if you saw what's on the meters scope, and how it's reacting to the small movements, it would show a classic case of Nulling, or one half partially cancelling the other half. The 4228 is two horizontally stacked 4221's. Each has a very wide path, but because they're side by side, and you are going through a bunch of trees, one half is getting a slightly different waveshape than the other. The trees are most likely blocking some of the signal, a little differently, to each half. Not much, but enough to cause the sensitivity to direction. It may be multipath, too, but signal gets more blockage from trees than bounce. That's one reason I'm not fond of the 4228 in the trees, and haven't needed or used one in 7 years. The 4221 by its self doesn't have this problem, and can out perform it in the trees. BUT, the 4248 still does better than either in trees and weaker areas.
The 15-2160 small yagi is more directional, but because it's so short length wise, once you get past about 30-45 degrees off axis, it actually just starts to pick up signal sideways! The little bow tie loop in the base of the reflector is where the signal is actually picked up, so when you get it far enough to one side, there are no reflecting arms to block reception. It's not as good that way, but if you're close enough to the towers, like budget_HT is, you can pick up signal way off axis, if it happens to be just the right angles. For robglasser, the angles are within the rejection capabilities of the 15-2160.
Let us know what happens, Rob.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
robglasser
quarque has the right idea. Use another antenna, forget the preamp.
......
The 4221 by its self doesn't have this problem, and can out perform it in the trees. BUT, the 4248 still does better than either in trees and weaker areas.
Dan

So is the thought that a 4221 or 4248, by itself, without a rotator would have a better chance of picking up all the stations than the 4228 I currently have up there?

The only reason I went with the 4228 was I was able to get it locally (frys) at a good price with a return policy if it didn't work out. So far I haven't been able to find the 4221 or 4248 at a good price with a return policy locally. I called the place up in Everett that you recommended but their prices were a lot more than the internet prices, everything was special order, and he doesn't allow returns on antennas. As far as the 4221 throwing $30.00 to try it out online isn't a big deal to me, I'm past the 30 days return to Frys but who knows I still may be able to return it. The 4248 however is a lot more expensive, especially to ship, and I'd be worried it's too directional.

Dan,
Sorry for not replying sooner. Too late for the 7775 (solidsignal agreed to refund). I saw that Lowes carries an channel master amp, I might try that and pick up the ratshack attenuator. Since the last post I've had some drop outs also on KCPQ. From what I've been reading the 4228 sounds like a good choice locally. I was tempted to try the winegard ss1000 or ss2000 but asked solidsignal for advice and they said it can't match the 4228. I also considered mounting 2 4221's on the same pole aimed slightly apart. But will try your suggestion first. Does it matter how close the outside part of the amplifier is to the antenna? I had it mounted approx 2 feet under the wire mesh on the pole.

Just spent some time reviewing the thread and see this is really a great resource. A lot of learning going on here. litzdog911 sounds to have had problems mirroring mine (substitute komo for kiro). I very nearly got the squareshooter but it sounds like the various channelmasters seem to do well in the Mill Creek area. (I'm near 3rd Ave SE off 164th in North Creek Park). From what I've been reading and Dan's earlier posts sounds like the trouble I'm having might just be a line of tall fir trees approx 10 blocks few blocks away and in the direction where I have the antenna pointed. There are gaps in the trees but its possible wind might play a factor in the south-southwest direction. If I point the signal more towards the south I think I clear the trees but I lose FOX altogether (the other stations do come in stronger with the exception of KOMO which just doesn't get better than 70 on the dish921. The only channels I lose are Fox and Komo and sometimes have pixilation on PBS. As I said in the previous post, I will try the amp again with an attenuator. If that doesn't work do you recommend the 4248?

Originally posted by robglasser
So is the thought that a 4221 or 4248, by itself, without a rotator would have a better chance of picking up all the stations than the 4228 I currently have up there?

Yes, that is what I was suggesting (single 4221 by itelf, NOT a single 4248). A single antenna is simpler to deal with and often much easier to get working than multiple antennas. Many people have tried the JoinTenna route and not had success, but others have. I always start with the simplest solution and work towards the more exotic when that fails. So I would get a 4221 and try it in place of the 4228. Dan has said in the past that the 4248 is much more directional so that would mean using 2 antennas. If the 4221 does not work by itself at a single orientation then you can always use it in combination with the 4228 later. You *can* cut the 4228 in half as Dan suggested depending on what your definition of "easy" is. Not everyone would find it easy. I would not waste the time on it since you may need it later in one piece.

P.S. if you don't want to wait for delivery on a 4221 you could stop by Rat Shack and pick up a 15-2160. Their website shows who has stock. It is cheap and not super directional as Budget_HT pointed out.

Originally posted by robglasser
So is the thought that a 4221 or 4248, by itself, without a rotator would have a better chance of picking up all the stations than the 4228 I currently have up there?

The only reason I went with the 4228 was I was able to get it locally (frys) at a good price with a return policy if it didn't work out. So far I haven't been able to find the 4221 or 4248 at a good price with a return policy locally. I called the place up in Everett that you recommended but their prices were a lot more than the internet prices, everything was special order, and he doesn't allow returns on antennas. As far as the 4221 throwing $30.00 to try it out online isn't a big deal to me, I'm past the 30 days return to Frys but who knows I still may be able to return it. The 4248 however is a lot more expensive, especially to ship, and I'd be worried it's too directional.

robglasser
Make this easy! If it ain't broke......
Leave the 4228 as it is. It's already working for all the channels, but 13, so spin it more south, and get that locked down. Get a 15-2160. It's cheaper, smaller, and can be returned. It has about a 90% chance of working for 13.
Mount it above the 4228. Point it towards 13. Couple them with a ch13 jointenna. They do work pretty good. The older ones from the analog days were not as good, but these have been improved, because I do get better readings than before. If someone uses one and has problems, it's not the cause.
If the 15-2160 doesn't work, change it for a 4221. Keep the jointenna. Leave the 4228 alone, since it's working okay.
Yes, I would have done it differently, but that's not what you need to do.
You're almost there, so try this and then see what gives.
Patience is a virtue, patience is a virtue......
Dan

Originally posted by TAB
Thanks for the information - perfect. Good to hear that FSN is at least considering expanding HD. If only FSN was OTA (I'd even take D*); or if only an OTA HD channel would pick up the M's & Sonics. I'd watch every game.
Tom


We're working on bringing OTA HD Mariner BB...alot of hurdles to bring FOX SP NW and Comcast together with KSTW UPN11 and hammer out a combined deal.
RDiotte
CE, KSTW

Regarding IMAX movies. We have 22 some odd titles we're running every other weekend...Sundays thru Nov.

Viacom owned KSTW UPN11 DT-36 invested in the IMAX movie package to increase our variety of HD programming we can offer. UPN as a network does not yet provide as many hours of HD programming in prime time as the larger networks do.
In order to get CATV system like Comcast to add KSTW and UPN to their digital HD tier...we're looking for orginial HD programming such as the IMAX series or possibly Mariner BB or working to get off network (syndication) series such as re-runs of CSI and King of Queens to be distributed to us in HD instead of SD.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Just spent some time reviewing the thread and see this is really a great resource. A lot of learning going on here. litzdog911 sounds to have had problems mirroring mine (substitute komo for kiro). I very nearly got the squareshooter but it sounds like the various channelmasters seem to do well in the Mill Creek area. (I'm near 3rd Ave SE off 164th in North Creek Park). From what I've been reading and Dan's earlier posts sounds like the trouble I'm having might just be a line of tall fir trees approx 10 blocks few blocks away and in the direction where I have the antenna pointed. There are gaps in the trees but its possible wind might play a factor in the south-southwest direction. If I point the signal more towards the south I think I clear the trees but I lose FOX altogether (the other stations do come in stronger with the exception of KOMO which just doesn't get better than 70 on the dish921. The only channels I lose are Fox and Komo and sometimes have pixilation on PBS. As I said in the previous post, I will try the amp again with an attenuator. If that doesn't work do you recommend the 4248?

Chuck
Mount the preamp as close to the antenna as possible, within 3ft is fine. Be sure you tie the cable from the balun to the preamp so it won't twist and cause the the wires from the balun to where they wrap under the connecting screws to twist as well. If they do, it can cause problems with reception. Keep them as far apart and evenly spaced as possible.
Don't worry about 13 for now, just concentrate on the rest. When you find the best spot, then try to dial in 13. If it can't be done, do something like I suggested for robglasser.
Dan

Originally posted by rdiotte
Regarding IMAX movies. We have 22 some odd titles we're running every other weekend...Sundays thru Nov.

Viacom owned KSTW UPN11 DT-36 invested in the IMAX movie package to increase our variety of HD programming we can offer. UPN as a network does not yet provide as many hours of HD programming in prime time as the larger networks do.
In order to get CATV system like Comcast to add KSTW and UPN to their digital HD tier...we're looking for orginial HD programming such as the IMAX series or possibly Mariner BB or working to get off network (syndication) series such as re-runs of CSI and King of Queens to be distributed to us in HD instead of SD.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW

RDiotte
Good news. I have a lot of HD customers on cable that are looking for KSTW in HD. And definitely want Mariners in HD! It's sad that people in Japan get all the home games in HD 8000 miles away and we can't. We love going to the games, but rarely have the time. Hope it can be done for this season.
Dan

Originally posted by rdiotte
Regarding IMAX movies. We have 22 some odd titles we're running every other weekend...Sundays thru Nov.

Viacom owned KSTW UPN11 DT-36 invested in the IMAX movie package to increase our variety of HD programming we can offer. UPN as a network does not yet provide as many hours of HD programming in prime time as the larger networks do.
In order to get CATV system like Comcast to add KSTW and UPN to their digital HD tier...we're looking for orginial HD programming such as the IMAX series or possibly Mariner BB or working to get off network (syndication) series such as re-runs of CSI and King of Queens to be distributed to us in HD instead of SD.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW

Ron,

We appreciate your efforts (and likely others at KSTW) to expand HD programming. I especially hope you can work out a Mariners HD OTA deal.

We also appreciate your dropping in here with news of your activities. It would be nice to hear from more of your peers. You and Don W. at KOMO are setting great examples IMHO for relating to and communicting with interested and supportive viewers. Poster "KIROTV" (or something close to that) appears here at times also.

Let us know here on the forum if we can help with letters, emails, or whatever to show our interest.

Chuck
Mount the preamp as close to the antenna as possible, within 3ft is fine. Be sure you tie the cable from the balun to the preamp so it won't twist and cause the the wires from the balun to where they wrap under the connecting screws to twist as well. If they do, it can cause problems with reception. Keep them as far apart and evenly spaced as possible.
Don't worry about 13 for now, just concentrate on the rest. When you find the best spot, then try to dial in 13. If it can't be done, do something like I suggested for robglasser.
Dan


Got a CM Spartan 3 from Lowes and tried it with the Radio Shack 20db attenuator and have made several trips to the roof in the dark. The positive is that I have determined my fear of heights is greatly diminished when I can't see the ground. The results, however, were not good. I have taken the amp and attenuator off and am back to the original configuration. The problem channels (komo and fox and pbs) have cooperated with me in pixelating and freezing tonight (clouds moved into the convergence zone today). Amplification did no good. Setting the attenuator between 1/4 to 2/3'ds I signal strength was about the same as
no amp and no attenuation. The equipment goes back tommorrow. At this late hour I am the only one awake in my household otherwise I would go back to the roof and start twisting the antenna around. I think I am at the point where I might (as you suggest) let fox go and work on the others. The only programs I care about on fox are 24 and Seahawks. But I've missed too much of 24 to know what is going on and maybe fox will get it's act together before games begin again. Anyway, I will tweak the direction again tommorrow. it should be a good test with the less than perfect weather prediction. Will post the results.

Well this morning is windy and cloudy and I went back to the roof and reaimed the antenna. Anywhere from direct south to the original south-southwest and KOMO is still dropping out. Right now I think I have it pointed at the source, approx 180 degrees. It goes a little bit higher on the readout for KOMO (up to 80 but still crashes to 0). UPN and KIRO are showing extremely strong signal (120-125). The angle to the south-southeast appears clear of trees. To some degree or the other south-southwest has some big trees on the horizon. Where it is pointed now is the least dense spot. I don't want to go with 2 antennas on the mast. I'm willing to sacrifice FOX. Do you recommend the 4221 or the 4248?
Not clear on the directionality issue and how is is a plus or minus for trees. Will probably go back up there and tweak somemore. Haven't tried pointing
towards the south-southeast for a while, will try that. Happen to be off today. Might as well take advantage of the bad weather while it's still here.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Chuck
Mount the preamp as close to the antenna as possible, within 3ft is fine. Be sure you tie the cable from the balun to the preamp so it won't twist and cause the the wires from the balun to where they wrap under the connecting screws to twist as well. If they do, it can cause problems with reception. Keep them as far apart and evenly spaced as possible.
Don't worry about 13 for now, just concentrate on the rest. When you find the best spot, then try to dial in 13. If it can't be done, do something like I suggested for robglasser.
Dan


Got a CM Spartan 3 from Lowes and tried it with the Radio Shack 20db attenuator and have made several trips to the roof in the dark. The positive is that I have determined my fear of heights is greatly diminished when I can't see the ground. The results, however, were not good. I have taken the amp and attenuator off and am back to the original configuration. The problem channels (komo and fox and pbs) have cooperated with me in pixelating and freezing tonight (clouds moved into the convergence zone today). Amplification did no good. Setting the attenuator between 1/4 to 2/3'ds I signal strength was about the same as
no amp and no attenuation. The equipment goes back tommorrow. At this late hour I am the only one awake in my household otherwise I would go back to the roof and start twisting the antenna around. I think I am at the point where I might (as you suggest) let fox go and work on the others. The only programs I care about on fox are 24 and Seahawks. But I've missed too much of 24 to know what is going on and maybe fox will get it's act together before games begin again. Anyway, I will tweak the direction again tommorrow. it should be a good test with the less than perfect weather prediction. Will post the results.

Chuck
If weather, rain and/or wind, bothers reception, then trees are the culprit.
Good job on trying out the amp, etc. The only thing left is antenna direction, and location. If you can't get it with those tweaks, then antenna change to 4248 is what's needed. You may still need a preamp with it. When you get KOMO again, then add the second antenna for 13. Be sure to leave enough mast height for it, about 3ft. You might want to call me for install tips.
Last, for Pete's sake, KEEP OFF THE ROOF AT NIGHT !!!!
Great reception won't do you any good 6ft under ! It's very easy to loose your balance and reference points in the dark, specially when your freaked about heights, tired, or thinking about something other than crawling around on a roof. Don't ask how I know this !
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Well this morning is windy and cloudy and I went back to the roof and reaimed the antenna. Anywhere from direct south to the original south-southwest and KOMO is still dropping out. Right now I think I have it pointed at the source, approx 180 degrees. It goes a little bit higher on the readout for KOMO (up to 80 but still crashes to 0). UPN and KIRO are showing extremely strong signal (120-125). The angle to the south-southeast appears clear of trees. To some degree or the other south-southwest has some big trees on the horizon. Where it is pointed now is the least dense spot. I don't want to go with 2 antennas on the mast. I'm willing to sacrifice FOX. Do you recommend the 4221 or the 4248?
Not clear on the directionality issue and how is is a plus or minus for trees. Will probably go back up there and tweak somemore. Haven't tried pointing
towards the south-southeast for a while, will try that. Happen to be off today. Might as well take advantage of the bad weather while it's still here.

I'm off 2nd Pl W near 164th by Mill Creek, only a few blocks up the hill from you and am currently working from home. I just checked my OTA via 4228 and Dish 921 and am not currently seeing any impact from the wind and/or cloud cover. Definetly sounding like an issue with trees by your place. Just thought I'd throw this out as another reference in the area at this time. My antenna is pointing south-slightly southwest. I have a pretty consistent 116 on KOMO, 107 on FOX, 125's on KIRO and KING, and nothing on UPN.

Rotating more due south brings UPN up to 125, but drops KCPQ to the 90's with frequent dropouts. The wind greatly increases the dropout making me think some trees about a block south are messing with the signal when their branches are swaying around. However, putting that slight southwest angle on the antenna boosts the FOX signal enough to make it rock solid. Sounds like those trees you have to the southwest might be hosing up abilities to get FOX.

Originally posted by robglasser
I'm off 2nd Pl W near 164th by Mill Creek, only a few blocks up the hill from you and am currently working from home. I just checked my OTA via 4228 and Dish 921 and am not currently seeing any impact from the wind and/or cloud cover. Definetly sounding like an issue with trees by your place. Just thought I'd throw this out as another reference in the area at this time. My antenna is pointing south-slightly southwest. I have a pretty consistent 116 on KOMO, 107 on FOX, 125's on KIRO and KING, and nothing on UPN.

Rotating more due south brings UPN up to 125, but drops KCPQ to the 90's with frequent dropouts. The wind greatly increases the dropout making me think some trees about a block south are messing with the signal when their branches are swaying around. However, putting that slight southwest angle on the antenna boosts the FOX signal enough to make it rock solid. Sounds like those trees you have to the southwest might be hosing up abilities to get FOX.

Amazing. I have the same set up. Unamplifed 4228 and Dish921. I wonder why I have so many problems with KOMO? And it is almost impossible for me to loose UPN. It has to be those trees off in the distance. And now I am thinking that the rain issue has less to do with it than the wind. Will be heading back to the roof to tweak again. My antenna is up pretty high (2nd floor) and those trees in the distance really don't look that imposing. And I don't want to move the antenna location because the chimney is as good a
spot as any relative to those trees. Will post what happens. Getting to really know my roof well.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Amazing. I have the same set up. Unamplifed 4228 and Dish921. I wonder why I have so many problems with KOMO?

Just thought I'd add, I just checked my signals again, and now that it's raining too my KOMO signal has dropped to fluctuating between 91 - 95, but appears to be solid. Didn't notice any dropouts during the couple minutes I watched it. Everything else appears unaffected by the rain/wind/clouds.

Edit: Ok, now leaving KOMO on for about 10 minutes showed 1 brief dropout. However just a few minutes on 13 showed a bunch of dropouts. Rotated the antenna a bit more to the west and it fixed 13, KOMO doesn't appear impacted, but now KONG is fluctuating. Looking more and more like a 2 antenna solution is going to be my only option. I've ordered a 4221 to see how it performs by itself. I am also going to try one other location on my roof it that doesn't fix it. If both options fail then I will be going the 2 antenna route.

Edit 2 (1:50 pm): It just started dumping here, and then followed up with a nice hailstorm. I went upstairs and checked my reception and both KOMO and KCPQ had the best reception I've ever had, both where bouncing between 120 - 125. Thought that was interesting and figured I'd post it.

Anybody else notice audio problems with KIRO's HD (7-1) broadcast last night?

I was surfing around the HD channels just for the heck of it last night and I noticed the audio at 7-1 was real bad, skipping and not synching up with the picture. I re-scanned the digital channels on my Dish 921 but that did not fix the problem. This was at about 10:00pm to 10:30Pm last night.

Did anybody else notice this, or am I having another problem with my Dish 921?

Originally posted by robglasser

Edit 2 (1:50 pm): It just started dumping here, and then followed up with a nice hailstorm. I went upstairs and checked my reception and both KOMO and KCPQ had the best reception I've ever had, both where bouncing between 120 - 125. Thought that was interesting and figured I'd post it. [/B]

Spent the better part of the last few hours on the roof. Finished shortly before the hail storm, glad I missed that. I repositioned the 4228 to the very upmost tip of the 10' mast and checked the parts to make sure all the
metal parts (new to this, don't know antenna nomenclature) were not touching each other. I took a good look at the horizon for trees and spent some time dialed between the cell phone and my wife watching the signal strength for KOMO. Added about 3 feet height (hope that doesn't put too much strain on the chimney or the fittings). The thing is really hoisted up there now. While on the roof the strongest signal at any time for KOMO was 82 (but passing/fluctuating all the time). By pointing almost due south (slight tilt to the west) I was able to keep KOMO from dumping for approx 30 min. FOX was gone but I knew that would happen. But then when I got back into the house I saw KOMO drop again. Could have had something to do with the hail. It was gusty up there all the time I was working with light rain. Have a feeling this isn't going to solve the KOMO problem but will give it a chance. Does FOX televise football in HD? If so I won't be happy in the Fall. I have never even gotten a signal for KONG. Which way to go next, the 4221 4248 or something else? Does anyone have info on locals rolling out better/stronger signals in the near term?

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Does FOX televise football in HD? If so I won't be happy in the Fall.

Yes they do. I watched a number of Seahawks games in Hi-Def at my brother's place last fall. Great picture, along with some not so great games ;) I'm also antipating their weekend Baseball games in HD this summer, not sure if it will happen or not, but hoping they do.

Actually, most people think the Fox HD NFL games were pretty bad. Personally, I think they improved as the season progressed, and by the Super Bowl they were pretty much on par with the average CBS HD game.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
...
The only programs I care about on fox are 24 and Seahawks. But I've missed too much of 24 to know what is going on...
Jack has foiled most of the bad guys most of the time and the terrorists haven't managed to blow the whole country up yet...
You haven't missed a thing.

Originally posted by Karyk
Actually, most people think the Fox HD NFL games were pretty bad. Personally, I think they improved as the season progressed, and by the Super Bowl they were pretty much on par with the average CBS HD game.

Well, I was only comparing it to my viewing expierence, all SD up to that point. At that time I didnt' have HD yet, and my brother has service through comcast so at that time no CBS-HD. Compaired to the CBS and FOX games I watched in SD, the FOX games in HD were great. =)

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
If weather, rain and/or wind, bothers reception, then trees are the culprit.
Good job on trying out the amp, etc. The only thing left is antenna direction, and location. If you can't get it with those tweaks, then antenna change to 4248 is what's needed. You may still need a preamp with it. When you get KOMO again, then add the second antenna for 13. Be sure to leave enough mast height for it, about 3ft. You might want to call me for install tips.
Dan

Dan Kurts
KOMO is still a problem after adding height and readjusting. Can't figure out why KIRO and KING are now in the 100 plus range and UPN is busting 120-125 and KOMO still drops out so much. Guess it is time to look for another antenna. Does the 4248 have a better local track record in this area than the 4228? Should I consider the 4221 as you suggested to RobGlasser? What do you think the chances are that it will pull in everything without the dual mount? I just would like to keep things simple. Today working up on the roof with some good gusts has given me a revised respect for the forces stressing the mast with that oversized grill on it.

RobGlasser
I'll be interested in hearing if the 4221 works for you better than the 4228. I think I'm going to try the 4248. Fortunately these things aren't all that expensive.

Dan,
Just returned from radio shack (returning stuff) and asked about the 15-2160. Was amazed it is in stock on 164th. Does this antenna work as well as the 4248? It's half the price and easy to return. My guess is the answer is no. Let me know, if it is comparable I will try to cancel the online order for the 4248. Thanks.

My first HD antenna was the 2160 then I went the Antenncraft Mux59 and Now I have the Channelmaster 4248. The build quality of the Channelmaster is superior but I bet you would have similar results far as reception . I recieve a signal that is about 10% higher by the meter with the Channelmaster. In hindsight its probably all the antenna I really needed. But I had to have a Channelmaster ..........

Like you said its easy to try and If it does not work you return it.

Also have you considered a rotator. Its great to tweak the signal for optimum reception. Maybe the 4221 would workout for you with a rotator.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
RobGlasser
I'll be interested in hearing if the 4221 works for you better than the 4228. I think I'm going to try the 4248. Fortunately these things aren't all that expensive.

Will do. Please do the same with me as far as the 4248 in case I end up going that direction. I'd also be curious to know where you end up getting the 4248 and how much (probably have to PM it to me to not violate pricing policy on posts). I checked the local place Dan referred me to, Pringles in Everett, and they only special order it and they wanted more for it locally than I could order it online with, including shipping.

Originally posted by robglasser
Will do. Please do the same with me as far as the 4248 in case I end up going that direction. I'd also be curious to know where you end up getting the 4248 and how much (probably have to PM it to me to not violate pricing policy on posts). I checked the local place Dan referred me to, Pringles in Everett, and they only special order it and they wanted more for it locally than I could order it online with, including shipping.

The order has been placed via solid signal. I don't know if I can cancel at this point. I will just go with the flow. It can't be as ugly as the 4228 (can it)? Anyway, I will status after the install.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan Kurts
KOMO is still a problem after adding height and readjusting. Can't figure out why KIRO and KING are now in the 100 plus range and UPN is busting 120-125 and KOMO still drops out so much. Guess it is time to look for another antenna. Does the 4248 have a better local track record in this area than the 4228? Should I consider the 4221 as you suggested to RobGlasser? What do you think the chances are that it will pull in everything without the dual mount? I just would like to keep things simple. Today working up on the roof with some good gusts has given me a revised respect for the forces stressing the mast with that oversized grill on it.

RobGlasser
I'll be interested in hearing if the 4221 works for you better than the 4228. I think I'm going to try the 4248. Fortunately these things aren't all that expensive.

Chuck
The 4248 is the only antenna I ever use in situations like mill creek where there are lots of trees. Once in a while I use a few other styles, but they're always yagis. The bow tie types, 4221, 4228 will usually work in the trees close in, but you need to be in a good area to begin with. Those that have them working in these same conditions are in the right spot. As you've seen, not every location has these spots! Each channel is on a different frequency, obviously, and many things are required to make each channel come in. The most likely causes of why KOMO is not coming in, when others do, is the antenna type and the trees.
I was mentioning the 15-2160 as the one to use for ch13, NOT for all the others. It's lousy in your situation. Ch13 comes in at a little higher angle, and has good power, so it will probably work. If not, (all together, now...) it's returnable!
I have done many installs around you, and all were able to get seattle and 13, all with the 4248, and all but 2 used a 7775 preamp. I have done far more surveys, specially around the golf course, that have failed, or would only get a few channels. And the ones that came in okay were different for each location. It's not a slam dunk, but it's possible.
When testing, be sure to try all four corners of your chimney for mounting locations. It's very possible to have it work in only one corner, even if the chimney is only 3ft square. Height is not always best. Sometimes lower is better. Just make sure the bottom of the antenna reflector, the > part, is above the top of the chimney. Take care when you fold out the little diamond shaped parts on the boom. DO NOT use them to turn. Put your fingers on the black plastic part between the diamonds.
Leave some mast sticking up above the antenna, too, maybe 2ft. You can mount the little one there, if needed, for 13. If they all come in, then you can always cut off the extra.
Don't be surprised that very small amounts of antenna rotation produce huge differences.
If you want to test the 15-2160 for 13, just connect it up instead of the 4248 and then swing it a little more SW. If it works, then get a ch13 jointenna, and mount it before the preamp.
But work with the 4248, first, so you know where to mount it. That will be the real challenge. Ch13 will most likely work from any of the corners.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
Will do. Please do the same with me as far as the 4248 in case I end up going that direction. I'd also be curious to know where you end up getting the 4248 and how much (probably have to PM it to me to not violate pricing policy on posts). I checked the local place Dan referred me to, Pringles in Everett, and they only special order it and they wanted more for it locally than I could order it online with, including shipping.

Just as some info, mostly for those that are in business and read the forum.
Pringles is a local wholesaler, that usually only deals with installers. They do sell to the public, but wholesale is their main thing. They are not setup for internet sales, and they don't keep huge quantities of stock. I recommend them to those on the forum, because you can usually just drive there and pick it up, or they can ship it fast. There are no others around the greater Puget Sound area to go to. If you need it today, then try them. Fry's has some stuff, too, retail, but not the variety or those special needs. Pringles usually have the popular Channel Master antennas in stock, among other brands. However, Channel Master, now owned by the Andrews Corp, is slow on delivery, so it's hard for Pringles to maintain adequate stock at all times. That's probably why they said it was special order it. Only Radio Shack takes stuff back, maybe Fry's. Every other antenna company I have dealt with never takes them back, this is normal, not the exception.

I deal with Pringles, and other small suppliers, because I get service and help when I need it, that goes way beyond most "big boys", and the internet types. I understand that for the average DIY guy, the internet is the way to go. Cool. If you need more, though, and some very helpfull people to make your electronics business run, Doug and the others there are tops.

Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
The 4248 is the only antenna I ever use in situations like mill creek where there are lots of trees.Dan

Ordered the 4248 from solidsignal yesterday. There may still be time to cancel the order if I can find one locally. Any suggestions? What is the tn for Pringles? I tried to find them online but they don't pop up on google. I don't think Fry's has it either. At least I didn't see it when I was there looking for an amp the other day.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
What is the tn for Pringles?

Found the number (425-258-6161) for Pringles. Unfortunately they do not have the 4248 in stock so unless there is another place to go locally I'll just have to wait for the order from solid signal.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Found the number (425-258-6161) for Pringles. Unfortunately they do not have the 4248 in stock so unless there is another place to go locally I'll just have to wait for the order from solid signal.

I can tell you that Fry's does not carry the 4248 or the 4221, the only UHF only antenna they carry is the 4228. As for solid signal, hopefully you won't have to wait long. I ordered my 4221 from them yesterday morning, and already have a tracking number indicating it'll be here tomorrow. Talk about speedy delivery. This was for normal ground shipping.

I am thinking about trying to move my antenna location if installing a 4221 doesnt' change anything for my reception issues. Currently where it's at on my roof I have a large cedar tree just to the left and slightly ahead of where the antenna is pointing. I've cut off the branches that looked like they might be in the direct path of the antenna but, I'm thinking that maybe that tree is impacting the antenna's ability to get some signal. The other end of my roof is where my Dish Satellite dishes are located, with one of them mounted right on the side of the peak (the easiest spot for me to put my antenna mast. I have attached a picture of this section of the roof and am looking for ideas on how to mount a 5' mast with a 4221 attached to it in this area. Don't really want to go the tripod route, trying to keep this as clean as possible. I have looked at some of the masts that attach to the dishes but they don't appear long enough for an antenna like a 4221. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Originally posted by robglasser
I can tell you that Fry's does not carry the 4248 or the 4221, the only UHF only antenna they carry is the 4228. As for solid signal, hopefully you won't have to wait long. I ordered my 4221 from them yesterday morning, and already have a tracking number indicating it'll be here tomorrow. Talk about speedy delivery. This was for normal ground shipping.

I don't have the tracking number yet but do know from past experience that they are indeed speedy. They also accepted return on the 7775 that I bought from them. I did find lower prices for the 4248 on the net but the shipping charges were all higher. I figure if I have to go online purchase route might as well stick with them.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
Ch13 comes in at a little higher angle, and has good power, so it will probably work. I have done many installs around you, and all were able to get seattle and 13, all with the 4248, and all but 2 used a 7775 preamp. Height is not always best. Sometimes lower is better. Dan

When you say a little higher angle do you mean the angle of the antenna needs to be adjusted up or down? I just assumed that you point it straight out parallel to the ground. Thanks.

KIRO why dont you have any of the HD feeds going for these tourny games? The games listed as HD, have all been SD, I am so dissapointed. Nothing is ever done even halfway right...
And I dont mean to keep bringing this up, but KOMO can't even get the reruns of Lost or Alias to be stutter free.
What is going on with these issues? Has everyone sorta just accepted "komo time" (not my term, but a good one) as just something we have to live with?
I am very cranky this afternoon if you can't tell.

I'm watching CBS OTA right now....does the UW v Montana game look like a webcam feed to anyone else? It's terrible!

Originally posted by BigBrownBoy
I'm watching CBS OTA right now....does the UW v Montana game look like a webcam feed to anyone else? It's terrible!

yes, very choppy and very typical CBS basketball presentation. So far KIRO did not switch the HD feed with the Oklahoma game when they should have, and the SD stuff looks just awful.

I thought I'd just throw a thanks out there to KOMO. 2 weeks in a row now on Alias and I haven't had a single problem. No audio or video problems OTA to a Dish 921. Looks like some of the issues may have been figured out?

Originally posted by rdiotte
Regarding IMAX movies. We have 22 some odd titles we're running every other weekend...Sundays thru Nov.
TitanTV only shows CSI for the next two Sunday evenings. When???

Originally posted by DrCrawn
KIRO why dont you have any of the HD feeds going for these tourny games?

I don't remember if it was Kiro last year, but however carried the games had one game on SD and a different one on HD at one point. I was trying to do a comparision of color, and discovered different games!

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
If you want to test the 15-2160 for 13, just connect it up instead of the 4248 and then swing it a little more SW. If it works, then get a ch13 jointenna, and mount it before the preamp.
Dan

Want to line up on this ahead of time just in case I need the 2160 for FOX. Does anyone locally carry the jointenna. Didn't find much with google. Also, just want to be sure before purchase the ch13 join-tenna is what I need. I know FOX VHF is 13 but the digital channel frequency is 18. Thanks again.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Want to line up on this ahead of time just in case I need the 2160 for FOX. Does anyone locally carry the jointenna. Didn't find much with google. Also, just want to be sure before purchase the ch13 join-tenna is what I need. I know FOX VHF is 13 but the digital channel frequency is 18. Thanks again.

I poked around and the only place I could find it was Warren Electronics. It is special order with a 2 week turnaround. The Channel Master part number is 0585-1, and retails for around $30.00. This model allows channels 14 - 29 through, and traps the rest. On the VHF models there is a different model per channel, but on the UHF a single model covers 15 channels. You might want to try Pringles in Everett and see if they carry it or can order it. I found their number once before by looking in the online dex yellowpages. Here is a link to the Channel Master page that explains all the Jointennas: http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm

What is the number for KIRO?

The UW game was not an HD game, FYI. The Gonzaga game should be. :(

KIRO 7 why are you not giving us the HD feeds of these games? Gonzagav Win. HAS BEEN ADVERTISED IN HD ACCORDING TO YOUR WEBSITE, what is going on over @ KIRO today? I am so dissapointed in this production so far, it's actually embarrassing since this is 2005.

Originally posted by FrayLo
What is the number for KIRO?

The UW game was not an HD game, FYI. The Gonzaga game should be. :(

Post the number here please if you get it, I am going to call as well.

according to their programming line the recorded message says the games ARE in HD. WTF?

206-728-7777

I've got HD Distants on DirecTV...watching the Gonzaga game in HD there. I'd much rather be watching it on sharper looking OTA, though.

thank you who ever made the phone call , game now in hd

I called but don't think it did any good. The lady who answered the phone would only say "we only broadcast what CBS gives us" and then pretty much told me to go away..... but maybe she checked up on it anyways :p

Originally posted by FrayLo
206-728-7777

I'm half inclined to call anyway and chew them out even though it's up now in HD.

KIRO gets the biggest thumbs down possible from me today.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
I'm half inclined to call anyway and chew them out even though it's up now in HD.

KIRO gets the biggest thumbs down possible from me today.

I would call them. If enough people let them know they're not satisfied, then maybe they'll work on whatever is their problem.

Kevin

Originally posted by Slev
I called but don't think it did any good. The lady who answered the phone would only say "we only broadcast what CBS gives us" and then pretty much told me to go away..... but maybe she checked up on it anyways :p

You get the thumbs up, KIRO gets the thumbs down, lol.

Zags v. Win. is turning out to be a very close game. ;)

I hope that KIRO steps up it's HD tomorrow. As well, I hope the Texas Tech/UCLA game remains in HD following the Zags.

Originally posted by robglasser
I poked around and the only place I could find it was Warren Electronics. It is special order with a 2 week turnaround. The Channel Master part number is 0585-1, and retails for around $30.00. This model allows channels 14 - 29 through, and traps the rest. On the VHF models there is a different model per channel, but on the UHF a single model covers 15 channels. You might want to try Pringles in Everett and see if they carry it or can order it. I found their number once before by looking in the online dex yellowpages. Here is a link to the Channel Master page that explains all the Jointennas: http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm

Thanks again. Hopefully won't be necessary. I called Pringles but it was after hours and his computer system was down. He did think though that he either might have the 0585-1 or something else to accomodate. Kurt seems like a good guy to work with on these things.

Originally posted by robglasser
I thought I'd just throw a thanks out there to KOMO. 2 weeks in a row now on Alias and I haven't had a single problem. No audio or video problems OTA to a Dish 921. Looks like some of the issues may have been figured out?

Thanks for the good words. I believe that the guys have made significant progress.

It reminds me of the arcade game where a gopher pops his head up out of a hole...when you hit it with a hammer, he pops up somewhere else.

It has been looking pretty good for the past several weeks. Maybe we are getting the best of the gopher.

Don

I second that Don. KOMO OTA has been fantastic from here in Snohomish via an indoor Silver Sensor for the past few weeks. I only watch KOMO news now, since KING's broadcast is the most annoying broadcast in the world with it swtiching in and out of HD mode the entire time.

Originally posted by wlong
I second that Don. KOMO OTA has been fantastic from here in Snohomish via an indoor Silver Sensor for the past few weeks. I only watch KOMO news now, since KING's broadcast is the most annoying broadcast in the world with it swtiching in and out of HD mode the entire time.

Wow, an indoor antenna working all the way out in Snohomish? I never even thought an indoor antenna would work that far away.

Well, I live in the Echo Lake area, which is pretty far up on a hill. I have a ton of trees around, but I pull in most stations at 75-80%. I do get some occasional dropouts on Fox, but hey -- that station broadcasts from Tacoma so I dont complain. :) A roof antenna would be nice, since it would eliminate my need to adjust my atenna now and then, but my setup is working pretty good for me at the moment.

Originally posted by robglasser
I am thinking about trying to move my antenna location if installing a 4221 doesnt' change anything for my reception issues. Currently where it's at on my roof I have a large cedar tree just to the left and slightly ahead of where the antenna is pointing. I've cut off the branches that looked like they might be in the direct path of the antenna but, I'm thinking that maybe that tree is impacting the antenna's ability to get some signal. The other end of my roof is where my Dish Satellite dishes are located, with one of them mounted right on the side of the peak (the easiest spot for me to put my antenna mast. I have attached a picture of this section of the roof and am looking for ideas on how to mount a 5' mast with a 4221 attached to it in this area. Don't really want to go the tripod route, trying to keep this as clean as possible. I have looked at some of the masts that attach to the dishes but they don't appear long enough for an antenna like a 4221. Any ideas would be appreciated.

robglasser
Move the single LNB dish, the one that's mounted on the eave's facia board, down on that board maybe 3ft, or towards you as viewing the picture. As long as there are no major treetops in the way of that dish's reception, it should still work fine. That would make the top of that dish about level with the peak of the roof. Then use one 4" wall mount on the eave's facia board, just below the peak. Wall mount like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F004&product%5Fid=15%2D883&MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722C0BA68C1B04FE38467 8A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6B7F9F3BD1712 EAA9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321F5E70B4DE9B6 C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB947534DC8D32E33F4E0CD834057A7BAC6A034A1 0D6D86FEBE35BFB37DBF359602D06CAA86855FBB7E9B

and a foot mount like this at the bottom of a mast.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F004&product%5Fid=15%2D888&MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722C0BA68C1B04FE38467 8A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6B7F9F3BD1712 EAA9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321F5E70B4DE9B6 C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB947534DC8D32E33F4E0CD834057A7BAC6A034A1 0D6D86FEBE35BFB37DBF359602D06CAA86855FBB7E9B

The mast should be the 10ft heavy gauge one. I can't tell from this perspective, but it looks like you have about 5 to 6ft from the roof peak to the lower roof. If you mount the mast against the facia mount and anchor the bottom to the roof, that should give at least 4ft to work with above the peak. You can mount the 4221 on that. It should clear the main dish mounted on the roof, as well. They'll be close together, but okay. The direction from you to the ch13 tower will be to the SW of the direction the lower dish is pointing. They should all work even though they are close to each to each other. When you order the 0585 Jointenna, specify ch 18. They will tune it for the chanel specified. That's why it takes a while to get it. It does allow a wide bandpass of about 5 channels either side of the one you want, but the only thing you need worry about is ch25, or KTWB22, so it's far enough away to be okay.
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
When you say a little higher angle do you mean the angle of the antenna needs to be adjusted up or down? I just assumed that you point it straight out parallel to the ground. Thanks.

Chuck
Correct. I mean that because the signal actually comes at you from a higher elevation, (1700ft for ch13 versus 975ft for QA towers) it should clear the treetops a bit better. You could try raising the antennas nose a little, but I found it has no effect at the distance you are from there.
Dan

Thanks for all your help Dan. I appreciate it all the feedback you've provided.

Dan, I too have thought of getting a second antenna (Yaggi Type) and mounting it in a different roof location and using a Jointenna but only for channel 5-1. I gather from your posts because of the wide bandpass this would not work well. I guess my only other option then is to use a selectable switch/splitter of some sort to tune in 5-1 or for that matter 7-1 as now I get neither of those signals.
Is this the best way to go?

Originally posted by wlong
I only watch KOMO news now, since KING's broadcast is the most annoying broadcast in the world with it swtiching in and out of HD mode the entire time.

With a better attitude, you wouldn't find it so annoying. You'd find it the most humorous newscast in the world. ;)

I particularly like the fact that they don't seem to know what the picture frame is for the 16:9 shots. I love seeing half a head and fumbling with papers at the left side of my screen. So professional! :p

Again with the KIRO troubles....

KIRO even has the Fla/Ohio game listed on their listings as HD, and they are showing the SD game. KIRO has a major problem already on their hands this weekend, and it's only the 5th game...
Time to send another email to programming...

Cmon KIRO! Turn on the hd feed of the Ohio-Florida game or give us waivers so we can watch it from D*'s feed!

Thank You!

I'm really getting sick og KIRO.
And this is the only HD game they have listed today :(

Here's the relply I got from KIRO:

Thank you for your repeated message about HD. All games broadcast by CBS in HD are aired in HD - and all others are manually upconverted. Since CBS is randomly switching among a variety of games, it is quite a challenge for the person in the control room.

I have no idea what's involved, but from my completely uninformed, ignorant position, I'd imagine the biggest challenge is staying awake. :D

What is KIRO's reasoning behind not showing this Vermont v Syracuse game in HD? Watching it in HD on DirecTV, now. I'm just going to stop even checking in with KIRO's coverage.

Can someone send them an email (KIRO) and ask that they leave the HD feed on at all times? with that I am saying we would always see the blue NCAA boarder as the side bars when the game is not in HD, then when they went temporarily to an HD game it would be in HD on KIRO. And the guy at the station would never have to switch a thing from an upconvert or not....

Originally posted by BigBrownBoy
What is KIRO's reasoning behind not showing this Vermont v Syracuse game in HD? Watching it in HD on DirecTV, now. I'm just going to stop even checking in with KIRO's coverage.

it started in HD, now when they switched back to it, it's SD.


KIRO blows IMO. What can you do though?

so their reasoning is that they have to "flip the switch" every time they change games? i don't understand why they don't just leave the HD feed on.

It's really sad that the ppls here at AVS know more about what SHOULD be on the screen than the "professionals" at KIRO. I mean, CBS is giving us a permanent HD feed, why can't KIRO just stick with it like Axis said?

The blue bars dont even fill up my entire screen! I get like an inch of black on each side!

It's possible I have never been more dissapointed in an HD production than what has happened with KIRO-DT over the past two days.

That whole "it's a challenge for the guy at the switch" is BS.

Too bad ABC doesnt have the tourny, KOMO would have been right on the ball with all this.

Shame on you KIRO, again.

STILL NO HD FOR THE VERMONT SYR. game! WE KNOW THERE IS AN HD FEED, SO WHAT THE HELL IS KIRO DOING GIVING US THE SD FEED??????

i have a bad feeling as D* and cable get more and more HD stuff, OTA users are going to get the shaft. We are already seeing this in this tourny. THose with D* are getting HD feeds and OTA users are getting crap!

I got my new Channel Master 4221 in the mail today, took down the 4228, put the 4221 up on the same pole, pretty much the same angle, with good results.

I can now get channel 11 with a signal of 125 out of 125, and 13 with a signal of 107. With the 4228 I never got 13 that strong while still receiving 11. I'll have to wait for a good rain storm to see if it can hold up. 4 is still in the 120 range, 5 and 7 are solid 125s, and 16 comes in about 116.

Unexpected good news: I now get a solid 107 on channel 9. I was never even able to lock in channel 9 with the 4228 facing ANY direction.

Not so good news: I lost 22 and 28. However, since I now get 9 I dont' care about 28, and I never watch anything on 22 so no loss there.

I also like the smaller size.

Thanks everyone for the recommendations. If I can keep my signals through the next rain/wind storm I think I'll be done.

KIRO has dropped the ball on the tourney coverage so far! I agree with the other posters that they should just leave the HD feed turned on with the blue bars on the sides when the game is not in HD. If this was my job, I'd be completely embarrassed with my performance! It's pathetic to know the game is being broadcast in HD but someone in the booth is on a starbucks run!

Originally posted by robglasser
I got my new Channel Master 4221 in the mail today, took down the 4228, put the 4221 up on the same pole, pretty much the same angle, with good results.

I also like the smaller size.

Thanks everyone for the recommendations. If I can keep my signals through the next rain/wind storm I think I'll be done.


3/18
Good to hear that it is working for you. Forecast this weekend sounds like a good test. Sounds like no need for a second antenna? Good luck. I will have my 4248 Monday. If the 4248 doesn't work I'll chop my 4228 into two 4221's. Will post results after I have the 4248 and installed either Monday afternoon after work or sometime Tuesday.
3/19
Interested in how it turned out today with the rain? Also, are you using an amp or just straight from the 4221?

Originally posted by DrCrawn
i have a bad feeling as D* and cable get more and more HD stuff, OTA users are going to get the shaft. We are already seeing this in this tourny. THose with D* are getting HD feeds and OTA users are getting crap!

I know what you mean...I have all the distant HD networks on D*, but always prefer to watch stuff OTA as I find the picture quality to be soooo much better. I'm always still amazed how a $25 antenna on my roof can bring in such a stunning picture/sound....and for free, to boot!

Originally posted by robglasser
I got my new Channel Master 4221 in the mail today, took down the 4228, put the 4221 up on the same pole, pretty much the same angle, with good results.

I can now get channel 11 with a signal of 125 out of 125, and 13 with a signal of 107. With the 4228 I never got 13 that strong while still receiving 11. I'll have to wait for a good rain storm to see if it can hold up. 4 is still in the 120 range, 5 and 7 are solid 125s, and 16 comes in about 116.

Unexpected good news: I now get a solid 107 on channel 9. I was never even able to lock in channel 9 with the 4228 facing ANY direction.

Not so good news: I lost 22 and 28. However, since I now get 9 I don't' care about 28, and I never watch anything on 22 so no loss there.

I also like the smaller size.

Thanks everyone for the recommendations. If I can keep my signals through the next rain/wind storm I think I'll be done.
It seemed obvious to me that the 4228 was too directional and a 4221 would solve that. Glad to hear it worked so well for you. You might try moving it up or down to see if 22 will come in.

I've been researching the 4228 on various forums with posters who are installers, engineers and just plain users. It is *universally* accepted as one of the best UHF antennas made, especially beyond 40 miles. There are a number of people using it at 75+ miles and find it to be *very* directional. Several people switched from a 4248 to the 4228 with a noticeable improvement. Below 30 miles it seems to be a toss-up with each working better in some locations. The theory that it can't go through trees seems to be bogus since many installations were in thick trees. As far as I can tell Dan is the only one who has written it off as "useless" in every case. So the accepted wisdom from what I read was: 4221 below 35 miles and 4228 above 35 miles. The other antenna that looks good for long distance is the 91XG from Antennas Direct. The Radio Shack 15-2160 seems popular for its price and is a possible alternative to the 4221. There are other manufacturers who make 4-bay and 8-bay bowties like the 4221 and 4228 but Channel Master is by far the most popular.

By matching the announced CBS HD games for Saturday [1] with KIRO's selected games [2], it looks like we'll get one HD game tomorrow: the Gonzaga-Texas Tech matchup at 10a. The other three time periods will all have SD games, even though CBS is providing HD games during all of the time periods. I can understand keeping the Washington game, and I'm excited to see Gonzaga vs. Texas Tech in HD, but it's a bummer that it sounds like we won't get a chance to see West Virginia vs. Wake in HD, for example.

From a brief look at the AVS thread above - although I could be wrong - it looks like some affiliates are showing HD games on their HD channels and SD games on their SD channels, at the same time. Anyone know why KIRO doesn't do this? (Seriously - I don't know if there are technical reasons, for example.)


I can't post URLs, so...
[1] avsforum dot com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5346138#post5346138
[2] kirotv dot com/programming/4292341/detail.html

I'm not sure I'd believe everything on KIRO's or Titan's websites since they have been wrong so many times. I will just check the DT broadcast and see with my own eyes what is in HD and what is not. Here's hoping...

If this mornings games is not being shown in HD then we will so no HD all day as it is the only scheduled game today in HD...let us hope KIRO has a different engineer in on the weekends, cause that guy in the station last night just completely tanked it on us...

----looks like we are seeing the blue bars so that is a great sign today...

The Zags game is in Tuscon, which is an HD site, so the game should be in HD, like it was Thursday.

Glad to see KIRO got things straightened out, with the full HD, and blue bars on non-hd stuff. (Zags lost :(...tourney's over for me...but Go Huskies!)

Just turned on the Husky game. So, Boise is not an HD site for games? RATS!!!

Originally posted by radtek
Dan, I too have thought of getting a second antenna (Yaggi Type) and mounting it in a different roof location and using a Jointenna but only for channel 5-1. I gather from your posts because of the wide bandpass this would not work well. I guess my only other option then is to use a selectable switch/splitter of some sort to tune in 5-1 or for that matter 7-1 as now I get neither of those signals.
Is this the best way to go?

radtek
Try a 4248 in place of the 4228. If it works, you're done. If it at least get's the two channels you wanted, then do a switched setup. If you only wanted ch5, then you could use a jointenna for ch48, as it's high enough to be above ch41, KCTS. Trying to use it for ch39, KIRO, would not work.
As far out as you are, you'll most likely need another 7775, too. Use the original one you have now for testing.
And try different locations for the antenna, of course.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
I got my new Channel Master 4221 in the mail today, took down the 4228, put the 4221 up on the same pole, pretty much the same angle, with good results.

I can now get channel 11 with a signal of 125 out of 125, and 13 with a signal of 107. With the 4228 I never got 13 that strong while still receiving 11. I'll have to wait for a good rain storm to see if it can hold up. 4 is still in the 120 range, 5 and 7 are solid 125s, and 16 comes in about 116.

Unexpected good news: I now get a solid 107 on channel 9. I was never even able to lock in channel 9 with the 4228 facing ANY direction.

Not so good news: I lost 22 and 28. However, since I now get 9 I dont' care about 28, and I never watch anything on 22 so no loss there.

I also like the smaller size.

Thanks everyone for the recommendations. If I can keep my signals through the next rain/wind storm I think I'll be done.

robgasser
Well done!
Getting ch28 is a bonus. It's very weak. You are high enough and there's very little in the way of line of sight for that one. Not getting ch22 is most likely just a matter of antenna location. A tree is giving you a slight problem, but since it's not needed, great.
Enjoy!
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
It seemed obvious to me that the 4228 was too directional and a 4221 would solve that. Glad to hear it worked so well for you. You might try moving it up or down to see if 22 will come in.

I've been researching the 4228 on various forums with posters who are installers, engineers and just plain users. It is *universally* accepted as one of the best UHF antennas made, especially beyond 40 miles. There are a number of people using it at 75+ miles and find it to be *very* directional. Several people switched from a 4248 to the 4228 with a noticeable improvement. Below 30 miles it seems to be a toss-up with each working better in some locations. The theory that it can't go through trees seems to be bogus since many installations were in thick trees. As far as I can tell Dan is the only one who has written it off as "useless" in every case. So the accepted wisdom from what I read was: 4221 below 35 miles and 4228 above 35 miles. The other antenna that looks good for long distance is the 91XG from Antennas Direct. The Radio Shack 15-2160 seems popular for its price and is a possible alternative to the 4221. There are other manufacturers who make 4-bay and 8-bay bowties like the 4221 and 4228 but Channel Master is by far the most popular.

quarque
Well, here we go again!

At 75+ miles, any UHF antenna is going to be pretty directional. At that same distance though, through the trees, the 4248 will be a hair more directional. Whether that will help or hinder, depends on what your going for and what's in the way.

Since neither the 4248 or 4228 is great across all channels, one may work better than the other, depending on what channels you need. Thus, some may have found it worked better for them on their channels at their location. I found the 4228 worked pretty good from Santa Rosa to Sutro 60 miles away in San Francisco. It out performed the 4248 there by about 10%, give or take. The terrain was basically flat, almost line of sight. From Santa Rosa to Sacramento, over the mountains and 43 miles away, they were both the same, pretty weak. In Santa Clara/San Jose, it was not quite as good to Sutro, 45 miles away, line of sight. In Palo Alto, closer, about the same. I also tried a 4228, among others, in San Ramon (going for Sacramento-hopeless, San Francisco--hopeless and Mt Allison KICU-fantastic) and in Colma. Further up the coast, in Clackamas, Tigard and Beaverton, Oregon, again, depending on the frequencies needed, it was close, but none of those sites really has to deal with the fir trees and hills combined, or the variety of transmitter locations and power, like we do around the greater Puget Sound area.

The 4228 will pick up reception through trees. How well it does, though, depends on a wide variety of factors, and those are obviously different in every part of the country.
Here, in our area, the 4228 does work, but just isn't very well suited. Case in point, robglasser. I like bow tie types. I use LOTS of 4221's because they work better than the 4228. I'm sure there a lot of people around here that use the 4228 and it works. I'm also sure that the 4221 would have worked as well in 90% of those locations, if not better. That's why I ALWAYS have one in my van, among others. For those 10% of the times that the 4221 doesn't work as well, the 4248 or yagi type works better than either bow ties. The yagi locations almost always are in the trees or going through them in the distance, over a hill, or all the above.

Digital reception is different than AM, FM or analog TV in one respect. Once you get a minimum amount, it's perfect. So, if your antenna works, why go further? Most HD receivers have some kind of reception "strength " indicator, that tells them they are working okay. What users can't see, that installers can, is what the real strength levels and, just as important, what the waveshape of the carrier looks like. It allows us to evaluate reception to a far greater detail, do a better job of finding the best reception, and make sure that it will be more than adequate to maintain minimums over time. A lot of people that think they have good reception are just above those minimums. All is well. Picture looks great. But, as the antenna corrodes, trees grow up, receiver sensitivity weakens, etc, they start to have dropouts, freezes, audio drops and more. The vast majority of users, the ones that comment on fine reception, really can't see signal quality, only the end result. As an installer, I try for the best reception both as you see it on the screen, and I see it on the analyzer. This way, I can be sure it's going to last as long as possible, and with the maximum amount of head room to make up for the inevitable losses.

Trying to use a generalization, based on what antenna types others use, over what distances, might help, but with all the variety of natural and man made obstructions we have here, it won't be too useful. There are many on this forum that can and do testify to that!
I really wish we could just say use a bla-blah antenna and woof-woof preamp all the time any where around here, and it always costs only $99.95 ! (Sorry, Earl ...)

I can only give an opinion on HD antenna installs based on what I've seen and done since HD started in 1998. I can't say much about HD reception outside of the Puget Sound area. I can comment on 35+ years of doing antennas for a living, and more as an underpaid slave in my dad's shop!

After many, many HD installs, and just as many surveys that failed, trying over 30 different types of antennas, all over our area, and against each other, I've boiled it down to about 6 antennas. There are lots of other antennas I wouldn't recommend, as well. And I'm always open to try something new, if you hear about something.


So.....
For all the above reasons, give or take, that's why I commented on the fact that the 4228, for Puget Sound, in my opinion, isn't really the best choice. If others see it differently, that's okay. It might work fine for them. But when someone asks me what I recommend, I can only go by my experience.

Dan

Our pycho dog woke me up about 5:00 am this morning in the middle of the wind and rain storm and was freaking out from the noises. Since I was now awake I decided to trek out to the living room and see how reception was with the mess going on outside. I'm glad to report that I didn't see a signal drop or any problems with any of the 4 major networks. I did however get dropout anytime there was a big gust of wind on channels 9 and 11. I don't watch these too much, Channel 9 for news and documentary specials, Channel 11 for Mariners, Enterprise, and occasional Seinfeld rerun. So, at the moment I'm not too worried but I'll have to work on improving their signals at a later date.

On a different note, I screwed up my recording on Enterprise in HD on Channel 11 Friday night and I noticed they rerun it on Saturdays. I went ahead and recorded it last night and it wasn't in HD. Any idea why they would only run it in HD on Friday nights and not other nights?

Originally posted by AxisThunder
If this mornings games is not being shown in HD then we will so no HD all day as it is the only scheduled game today in HD...let us hope KIRO has a different engineer in on the weekends, cause that guy in the station last night just completely tanked it on us...

----looks like we are seeing the blue bars so that is a great sign today...

About these blue bars...did anyone notice that on like thursday and friday the bars didnt completely fill the screen, but yesterday and today they do? Weird....

Dan,
Is there anyone over here in Kitsap co. that you could recommend for performing a signal strength test? I'm really only looking to receive Ch 13 OTA, since I can't see the QA towers at all from here. TIA.

Dan,
My 4248 arrives tommorrow. After robglassers success with the 4221 I'm wondering if that might have been a better choice for me. He doesn't live that far from me. But looking at his photo I think his trees were closer in. The ones that I suspect are blocking me are off in the distance..I would guess at least 10 blocks away. I guess I'll know tommorrow. On an earlier post I think you said that the 4228 is essntially 2 4221's stuck together and that it is not difficult to make two 4221 from a 4228. Assuming I took it apart correctly would the result have identical characteristics with the 4221? And perhaps a more trivial question. I am seriously considering spray painting the antenna to blend it better with the sky. Of course I don't want to sacrifice it's performance. On several other forums threads indicate that non metallic spray paint has absolutely no effect on the antenna's performance. Please comment on whether spray paint would defeat or hinder or interefere or in any way degrade my chances of getting all the channels I'm trying to pull in.

Originally posted by DanKurts

So.....
For all the above reasons, give or take, that's why I commented on the fact that the 4228, for Puget Sound, in my opinion, isn't really the best choice. If others see it differently, that's okay. It might work fine for them. But when someone asks me what I recommend, I can only go by my experience.

Dan
Well Dan, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. All I am saying is that if you ask 100 people about choosing X or Y and 99 choose X, I'd be inclined to go with X. Your experience seems counter to most everyone else's with the 4228, even in our area. Of the 30+ installs I know of only about 3 switched to another antenna after trying the 4228. So perhaps there is something wrong with the one you have sitting in your garage. :) Of course it is not THE best antenna for EVERY installation but it should not be dismissed as totally useless in the Puget Sound area. It really is one of the few good antennas to use beyond 40 miles.

Do you have any experience with the XG91?

Originally posted by Baldone01
Dan,
Is there anyone over here in Kitsap co. that you could recommend for performing a signal strength test? I'm really only looking to receive Ch 13 OTA, since I can't see the QA towers at all from here. TIA.
Baldone - you're still alive? Heck you should be able to get 13 with a coat hanger from your location - you're only a couple miles from the tower. Have you tried anything yet or just in the planning stages?

I've got a CM3021 4 bay mounted on the highest point on my house. Evidently my sense of direction sucks, since I still haven't been able to receive a stable (not bouncing from signal to no signal continuously without locking on) signal from 13.

I guess I should probably invest in a rotator instead of climbing my steep roof to make adjustments. (Not getting any younger anyway.)

Baldone - bouncing signal levels often mean strong multipath. Being so close to 13 this is not a surprise. Try pointing it UP at a 45 degree angle and towards the NW. The main signal is coming down almost on top of you. What receiver are you using?

edit: an attenuator is a very good idea. Also, you don't even need to have your antenna on the roof at that distance. To make things easy you might consider bringing it inside to the attic or an interior room that is convenient. The reason I suggested pointing your antenna up is that the main signal is coming down at about 45 degrees to your house. It may not be necessary but something to experiment with if the other ideas don't work.

Originally posted by Baldone01
Dan,
Is there anyone over here in Kitsap co. that you could recommend for performing a signal strength test? I'm really only looking to receive Ch 13 OTA, since I can't see the QA towers at all from here. TIA.

Baldone01
Your problem is most likely waaayyy toooo much signal. The antenna you're using has good gain at that distance. You don't need to point it upwards, normally. Make sure you are pointing at the top of Gold Mt, and then get a RatShack 20db attenuator, set for max, and mount it right behind the receiver with a short cable between. Then see what you get.

When I use that antenna in Ballard, Greenlake, Magnolia, etc, I routinely see levels of 30 to 40db ! That will easily overload a receiver and make it look like weak reception.
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
[B] But looking at his photo I think his trees were closer in. The ones that I suspect are blocking me are off in the distance..I would guess at least 10 blocks away. I guess I'll know tommorrow./B]

Those trees in the picture are behind my house, to the north. Facing south there are a few sporadic cedar's one cul-de-sac down, then another group of sporadic ones about 3 or 4 cul-de-sacs further. After that there isn't much until you get to the other side of 164th, probably about 10 blocks away or so.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
My 4248 arrives tommorrow. After robglassers success with the 4221 I'm wondering if that might have been a better choice for me. He doesn't live that far from me. But looking at his photo I think his trees were closer in. The ones that I suspect are blocking me are off in the distance..I would guess at least 10 blocks away. I guess I'll know tommorrow. On an earlier post I think you said that the 4228 is essntially 2 4221's stuck together and that it is not difficult to make two 4221 from a 4228. Assuming I took it apart correctly would the result have identical characteristics with the 4221? And perhaps a more trivial question. I am seriously considering spray painting the antenna to blend it better with the sky. Of course I don't want to sacrifice it's performance. On several other forums threads indicate that non metallic spray paint has absolutely no effect on the antenna's performance. Please comment on whether spray paint would defeat or hinder or interefere or in any way degrade my chances of getting all the channels I'm trying to pull in.

Chuck
Yes, the results of separating a 4228 would have basically the same performance as a 4221. They are never exactly the same, even from one 4221 to another. It's easy to bend the bow ties and back plane out of shape. It's not that critical, the antenna is pretty forgiving if the signal is decent, just as long as it's pointed towards the towers. If it is critical or fussy, then the problem is not the antenna, but location or obstructions.
You can paint the antenna back plane and pipe the bow ties are mountes to. One would asume if the paint had no metallic content, it wouldn't hurt. I have seen people paint them entirely, and measured some with good results. What I don't know is how good they were before the paint. All the antennas I've ever seen are treated or bare metal. Some, like certain Channel Masters, have an anodizing blue or gold color, but it's not paint. So, would it hurt to do everything? Not sure. I know the yagi that's on the north tower at Seahawk stadium is an anodized black version of one I use some times, and I could only see a very slight drop in performance, so they used the black one.
Doing a 4248, never seen one painted. If the paint theory holds, you could do everything. I would try it bare, first, though. Then you'll know if it mattered. And let us know what you saw, too.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
Those trees in the picture are behind my house, to the north. Facing south there are a few sporadic cedar's one cul-de-sac down, then another group of sporadic ones about 3 or 4 cul-de-sacs further. After that there isn't much until you get to the other side of 164th, probably about 10 blocks away or so.
Trees at 10 blocks away should have no effect unless they are 150+ feet tall. Remember, for most locations around here the signal is coming *down* from the transmitter to your antenna, not straight at it (horizontal).

Thanks Dan--I'll give that a go. BTW, I'm using the voom receiver at the moment--my sammy 360 gives the same results.

Originally posted by quarque
Well Dan, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. All I am saying is that if you ask 100 people about choosing X or Y and 99 choose X, I'd be inclined to go with X. Your experience seems counter to most everyone else's with the 4228, even in our area. Of the 30+ installs I know of only about 3 switched to another antenna after trying the 4228. So perhaps there is something wrong with the one you have sitting in your garage. :) Of course it is not THE best antenna for EVERY installation but it should not be dismissed as totally useless in the Puget Sound area. It really is one of the few good antennas to use beyond 40 miles.

Do you have any experience with the XG91?

quarque
The 4228 is not useless here, just overkill. I would bet that of the 27 installs you mentioned, almost all would work as well on a 4221. As I mentioned above, most of these users haven't the ability to measure the difference in gain or waveshape. We all know the receivers "strength" indicators are not true gain, and they're readings are thrown off by poor waveshape. You need both gain and waveshape to make it work.

One of the good things about a 4221 or 4228 is that back plane. You can mount the antenna against the side of a house, on 4"wall mounts, and it will work as good as if it were 2ft further out. It lets you mount it in places a yagi won't. There are end mount yagi's, but they're not as happy mounted to a wood wall. The main difference, though, is it's a lot easier to hide or mount the 4221 than the 4228. And since, from what I've measured, it shows the the performance is about the same around here, the 4221 gets used.

On paper, the 4228 has a little more gain. In the open, line of sight, no heavy trees, etc, it works great. The biggest UHF reception antennas look like a satellite dish shaped grid with bow ties, and they are better, by about 25 to 50% over 4248's or 4228's. I have a 6ft one in Shoreline doing a great job. I have stacked four 4228's, against four 4248's, purely for gain, and saw about a 25% difference in the 4228's favor. In the db world, that's a bunch. But you better have it really anchored well, we're talking major windloads! The stacked 4248's are far more sensitive to frequency needed when stacked, and it takes a lot of fooling around to get it to work right. When it does, it's very good, specially if you're going for just one channel. The waveshape can be tuned far sharper than 4228's stacked.


And, yes, I thought my 4228 was defective, so I tried 2 others, same results.

As for the XG91, it looks like the Blake JBX21 yagi.
http://www.blake-uk.com/
I bought one about 3 years ago. Looked great on paper. Tried it for about 6 months around here. Overall, it was about the same as the 4248. Some channels were a hair better in gain, some less, but all in all, about the same. It was not as good for waveshape, though. Consistently a little worse on all channels. The construction is more fragile, too. That's why it needs the extra brace for the main boom. The clamps are not as good, either. The Channel Masters are not Rolls Royce quality, but they are fairly sturdy where it counts. For the extra cost, the XG91 or Blake antenna's are not worth it.

What I'm really waiting for is improvements in receivers to catch up to the PC cards and software I've seen some of the "local guys" use. Some of their beta stuff I've seen is blow-you-away amazing. It makes all this antenna stuff look ridiculous. When they get around to making it available for the masses, it's going to make the game much easier.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
....
On a different note, I screwed up my recording on Enterprise in HD on Channel 11 Friday night and I noticed they rerun it on Saturdays. I went ahead and recorded it last night and it wasn't in HD. Any idea why they would only run it in HD on Friday nights and not other nights?

A KSTW engineer commented about this a few months ago .... their feed from UPN on Fridays is HiDef, but the Saturday repeat is not. Guess they don't have any HiDef-capable recorders yet.

Originally posted by robglasser
Those trees in the picture are behind my house, to the north. Facing south there are a few sporadic cedar's one cul-de-sac down, then another group of sporadic ones about 3 or 4 cul-de-sacs further. After that there isn't much until you get to the other side of 164th, probably about 10 blocks away or so.

The only ones I have to contend with are the ones you refer to on other side of 164th. There are patches of them on the horizon going looking in the general direction of 175 to 220 degrees (guestimate). When I initially mounted the antenna I in no way thought they would even enter the equation of good/bad signal. They just don't seem that imposing. I've been wrong before and will certainly be wrong again.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
Yes, the results of separating a 4228 would have basically the same performance as a 4221. They are never exactly the same, even from one 4221 to another. It's easy to bend the bow ties and back plane out of shape. It's not that critical, the antenna is pretty forgiving if the signal is decent, just as long as it's pointed towards the towers. If it is critical or fussy, then the problem is not the antenna, but location or obstructions.
You can paint the antenna back plane and pipe the bow ties are mountes to. One would asume if the paint had no metallic content, it wouldn't hurt. I have seen people paint them entirely, and measured some with good results. What I don't know is how good they were before the paint. All the antennas I've ever seen are treated or bare metal. Some, like certain Channel Masters, have an anodizing blue or gold color, but it's not paint. So, would it hurt to do everything? Not sure. I know the yagi that's on the north tower at Seahawk stadium is an anodized black version of one I use some times, and I could only see a very slight drop in performance, so they used the black one.
Doing a 4248, never seen one painted. If the paint theory holds, you could do everything. I would try it bare, first, though. Then you'll know if it mattered. And let us know what you saw, too.
Dan

If there is even any question about interfering with signal I will skip the paint. Will just mount the 4248 without the paint. When I convert the 4228 I might mess around with the resulting "4221's" cause hopefully the 4248 will be my main horse.

Originally posted by quarque
Trees at 10 blocks away should have no effect unless they are 150+ feet tall. Remember, for most locations around here the signal is coming *down* from the transmitter to your antenna, not straight at it (horizontal).

I figured as much. The ones I think that are causing my little bit of grief when it's windy are the ones behind the house across the street to the south. There are basically 4 clusters of 2-3 cedars with gaps between each cluster spread along my south to southwest view. As time allows I am going to play with locations and height to see what kind of difference I get. But at the moment I'm pretty happy because I can get just about everything in good weather, and keep the 4 major networks in really bad weather as that rain and wind storm early Sunday morning proved.

Dan - I'm not sure if you changed your position or just clarified it better. It sounds now like you are in agreement that a 4228 might be worth considering when beyond 35 miles. The only cases I know of that needed one closer in were attic mounts where the extra gain made the difference. Previous low-gain antennas just didn't cut it. I agree that it is usually overkill below 35 miles and this is what many others have concluded. I found it interesting in researching this how many people said the same things about the 4248 as you used to say about the 4228. Obviously each has its place, if only you knew beforehand what that was. So what about the (cheap!) Rat Shack 15-2160 yagi? Have you done any A-B tests with it vs. 4221?

So I will cease and desist on the 4228 debate if you will also.
All it wants is a little respect, you know, like Dangerfield... :)

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
If there is even any question about interfering with signal I will skip the paint.
From what I can tell reading other threads and forums, a non-conductive paint has no effect on the antenna's performance. Be sure to prime it first with something designed for bare metal. Mask off the areas around the cable/lead connections. Several light coats are better than one thick one.

Wow, what a difference a few feet can make.

Tonight I took my 4221 that I had clamped onto a 5' mast, basically putting it just a bit above roof level, and instead utilized the built in mast on the 4221 and put it on top of my 5' mast. Basically raising the antenna a few feet. After doing this my signal strength on everything that wasn't already maxed went up. Finally, I have KBTC back again, though only at about 82. Hopefully the increase in signal strength will help keep my stations solid during bad weather. Only time will tell.

For those of you with Dish 921 receivers here is what I get on their 125 point scale:

4: 120 - 125 (116 - 120 before move)
5: 125
7: 125
9: 107 - 112 (91- 103 before move)
11: 120 - 125
13: 116 - 120 (112 - 116 before move)
16: 112 - 120
22: 125 (nothing before move)
28: 82 (nothing before move)
33: 103 - 107