Originally posted by robglasser
Wow, what a difference a few feet can make.

Tonight I took my 4221 that I had clamped onto a 5' mast, basically putting it just a bit above roof level, and instead utilized the built in mast on the 4221 and put it on top of my 5' mast. Basically raising the antenna a few feet. After doing this my signal strength on everything that wasn't already maxed went up. Finally, I have KBTC back again, though only at about 82. Hopefully the increase in signal strength will help keep my stations solid during bad weather. Only time will tell.

For those of you with Dish 921 receivers here is what I get on their 125 point scale:

4: 120 - 125 (116 - 120 before move)
5: 125
7: 125
9: 107 - 112 (91- 103 before move)
11: 120 - 125
13: 116 - 120 (112 - 116 before move)
16: 112 - 120
22: 125 (nothing before move)
28: 82 (nothing before move)
33: 103 - 107

robglasser
Welcome to the winners circle!
I wouldn't worry about KBTC 28 HD too much. Getting ANYTHING from them at that distance is great, not counting your trees. Also, they are run by Bates Technical school, so I've seen the power go up and down from time to time. I would assume they're training or testing. In any case, they do vary, I've seen it happen while reading it.
One minor point on your numbers. The results are not really signal strength. I know that's what it says on the display, and they're partially right. It's signal to noise ratio. It very well could now have the same actual signal level on ch22, just that you moved it enough so it's getting a flatter waveshape across the whole 6mhz of that channel. You could have also had more actual signal, or less, but cancelled some of the noise or multipath, too. The net result is the numbers went way up.
This is why a lot of people have trouble trying to sort out what's working and not.
Bottom line, you're up.

Now, be sure to fasten the antenna to the mast. I know it seems like there's no way it's going to jump out or turn. Most likely it won't, but I have seen them do it in a good wind storm. Just take a drill and run a 3/16 hole through the mast and antenna where they join, and use a 3/16 stainless bolt and nut. It won't corrode on you, and you can easily remove it later when you want to play around some more.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
Dan - I'm not sure if you changed your position or just clarified it better. It sounds now like you are in agreement that a 4228 might be worth considering when beyond 35 miles. The only cases I know of that needed one closer in were attic mounts where the extra gain made the difference. Previous low-gain antennas just didn't cut it. I agree that it is usually overkill below 35 miles and this is what many others have concluded. I found it interesting in researching this how many people said the same things about the 4248 as you used to say about the 4228. Obviously each has its place, if only you knew beforehand what that was. So what about the (cheap!) Rat Shack 15-2160 yagi? Have you done any A-B tests with it vs. 4221?

So I will cease and desist on the 4228 debate if you will also.
All it wants is a little respect, you know, like Dangerfield... :)

quarque
No position change, just put another way so you can hopefully understand that I see things in a more detailed manner than most of the people on the forums. ANYTHING that works at ANY distance is fine by me!
I'm not proud, either. It doesn't have to be some double-throw-down slamma-jamma whiz-bang made out of titanium and diamond dust. If it works, and will hold up in our environment, great.
Had one job just south of Cottage lake, high on the ridge, and in a wide open area. Looked like a slam dunk. He had just moved in to an older remodeled home, and it still had the old RatShack $25 UHF/VHF guy, with the straight elements, not the forward angled ones. Rust city and on top of a well used chimney. I tried everything, even went home and grabbed the 4228, and some other oddballs lying around. Two days, nothing would get them all. What was wierd was the user was saying he got all the channels, just not steady. I measured the old one, and it actually looked pretty good, just weak. Okay. Took it down, carefully, hacksawing off the rusty bolts, drilled out the balun screws, sanded of the rust from the contacts, put on a new balun and cable, put silicone glue over all the new connections, threw it back up and used a 7775, winner! That was 5 years ago. He doesn't use the fireplace, so that helps. And I've been back twice to help him with other stuff in his theater, still has a good signal. I even told him I would warranty it for two years. (hey, if the antenna Gods smile on you, go for all you can get!)

Does anyone know why CBS (7) wasn't broadcasting the NCAA games in HD? I know they have been in other markets.

Originally posted by quarque
Dan - I'm not sure if you changed your position or just clarified it better. It sounds now like you are in agreement that a 4228 might be worth considering when beyond 35 miles. The only cases I know of that needed one closer in were attic mounts where the extra gain made the difference. Previous low-gain antennas just didn't cut it. I agree that it is usually overkill below 35 miles and this is what many others have concluded. I found it interesting in researching this how many people said the same things about the 4248 as you used to say about the 4228. Obviously each has its place, if only you knew beforehand what that was. So what about the (cheap!) Rat Shack 15-2160 yagi? Have you done any A-B tests with it vs. 4221?

So I will cease and desist on the 4228 debate if you will also.
All it wants is a little respect, you know, like Dangerfield... :)

quarque
No position change, just put another way so you can hopefully understand that I measure antennas in a more detailed manner than most of the people on the forums. Without analyzers, sadly, it's trial and error for them. The few times I had to work without one, it was even more maddening for me!

ANY antenna that works at ANY distance gets my respect!
Kind of like golf clubs. Just have to get the right one for the distance and hazards. Maybe that's why I carry all those antennas around.....

I'm not proud, either. It doesn't have to be some double-throw-down slamma-jamma whiz-bang made out of titanium and diamond dust. If it works, and will hold up in our environment, great. If it's cheaper, all the better.

Had one job just south of Cottage lake, high on the ridge, and in a wide open area. Looked like a slam dunk. He had just moved in to an older remodeled home, and it still had the old RatShack $25 UHF/VHF guy, with the straight elements, not the forward angled ones they have now. Rust city and on top of a well used chimney. I tried everything, even went home and grabbed the 4228, the Blake, and some other oddballs lying around. Two days, nothing would get them all. What was wierd is the user said he got all the channels, just not steady. I measured the old one, and it actually looked pretty good, just weak. Okay. Took it down, carefully, hacksawing off the rusty bolts, drilled out the balun screws, sanded of the rust from the contacts, put on a new balun and cable, put silicone glue over all the new connections, threw it back up and used a 7775, winner! That was 5 years ago. He doesn't use the fireplace, so that helps. And I've been back twice to help him with other stuff in his theater, still has a good signal. I even told him I would warranty it for two years. (hey, if the antenna Gods smile on you, go for all you can get!)

The little 15-2160 yagi, works great close in. It's not as flexible as the 4221, in that it has three lobes, where the 4221 is just fat city, pretty much equal over 120-140 degrees. Of course, depends on a lot of other factors, but under the same ones, that's what I see. I used to use them all the time for close in work, as they're even smaller. Then, two or three years ago, RatShack decided not to make them anymore. I guess they woke up and started again, about a year ago, I think. Gain is fair, less than the 4221, but if you're close, no problem. Because of the short boom, you can fudge them enough to actually have signal come in from about 75 to 110 degrees off axis, and they work okay. Ideal for places like Volunteer parkarea, top of Magnolia, north Admiral, Beacon hill. Places where there aren't a lot of trees, and you can get just the right angle combination. I think budget HT said he was picking up ch33 on the back side, from Maple Valley, Fairwood area. I usually use the 4221's in Ballard, or Green lake, areas where the angle isn't that great between the three locations. Another reason I use the 4221 is it can be mounted much closer to the house, hiding it more against a wall. The 15-2160 sticks out a foot more. Sometimes that's a huge difference to the user.
AntennaCraft makes one that's similar
http://antennacraft-tdp.com/7B141.htm
has a little more gain, and is a little shorter, but more money, and gets fussy sometimes, not sure why.
Then there's the Winegard 9012
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-9012.pdf
Small, about the same gain as the 15-2160, but not as good for waveshape. Even had a few easy line of sight ones close in that it just had problems with some channels. The 15-2160 was better.
There was another I saw that was like 7B141, user couldn't remember where he got it, had front elements like a 9012, but a funny looking pickup loop, like a 4248, but squared off. Actually worked pretty good. As much gain as a 4221, but not very good at ch9 or ch5 frequencies.

Geeze, rambling again, drifting into my fuzzy spaces..... Forgot how many UHF antennas I tried.
Digressing into further digressions.....

If you hear of something that sounds feasable, give me a shout.
We gotta meet sometime and swap lies !
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
robglasser
Now, be sure to fasten the antenna to the mast. I know it seems like there's no way it's going to jump out or turn. Most likely it won't, but I have seen them do it in a good wind storm. Just take a drill and run a 3/16 hole through the mast and antenna where they join, and use a 3/16 stainless bolt and nut. It won't corrode on you, and you can easily remove it later when you want to play around some more.
Dan

Good idea I'll have to do that.

Found out I'm not quite as home free as I hoped. I think I'm still getting some tree/wind interference on channel 9. It was kind of gusty at my place before I left for work, checked out all the channels and all appeared well except channel 9 dropped out for a second or 2 every once in a while. Oh well, got to have something to work on ;)

On a similar note. Did anyone else watch 24 last night? I had 3 extremely brief audio dropouts that included a partial picture pixelization. 2 in the first few minutes of the show and then one more near the end during a commercial (There may have been othere during commercials but I was time shifted via my DVR by about 10 minutes so only saw the last bank of commercials). Trying to figure out if it was my antenna or the source.

Thanks

Originally posted by robglasser
Wow, what a difference a few feet can make.

Tonight I took my 4221 that I had clamped onto a 5' mast, basically putting it just a bit above roof level, and instead utilized the built in mast on the 4221 and put it on top of my 5' mast. Basically raising the antenna a few feet. After doing this my signal strength on everything that wasn't already maxed went up. Finally, I have KBTC back again, though only at about 82. Hopefully the increase in signal strength will help keep my stations solid during bad weather. Only time will tell.

For those of you with Dish 921 receivers here is what I get on their 125 point scale:

4: 120 - 125 (116 - 120 before move)
5: 125
7: 125
9: 107 - 112 (91- 103 before move)
11: 120 - 125
13: 116 - 120 (112 - 116 before move)
16: 112 - 120
22: 125 (nothing before move)
28: 82 (nothing before move)
33: 103 - 107

Congratulations! It sure looks like you got it beat. The 4248 didn't work for me. Maybe I could have played with it more but essentially the characteristics in my situation were virtually identical to the 4228. I couldn't get it to hold signal on either komo or fox no matter which way I pointed it. And I have to say, I didn't realize how large the 4248 is. It dwarfs the 4228 which I thought was pretty large itself. So I converted my 4228 into a 4221. I also painted it. Mounted it this morning without an assist to call out signal strength and I do see improvement. I am now getting komo strength occassionally to 100 (it still is fluctuating alot). Fox is holding around a 70...but I haven't really tweaked the signal yet so I am hopeful.
.........
edit after seeing your last post. Sorry to hear you still had some issues. But it definitely sounds like you are getting close. Good luck!

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
Yes, the results of separating a 4228 would have basically the same performance as a 4221. They are never exactly the same, even from one 4221 to another. It's easy to bend the bow ties and back plane out of shape. It's not that critical, the antenna is pretty forgiving if the signal is decent, just as long as it's pointed towards the towers. If it is critical or fussy, then the problem is not the antenna, but location or obstructions.
You can paint the antenna back plane and pipe the bow ties are mountes to. One would asume if the paint had no metallic content, it wouldn't hurt. I have seen people paint them entirely, and measured some with good results. What I don't know is how good they were before the paint. All the antennas I've ever seen are treated or bare metal. Some, like certain Channel Masters, have an anodizing blue or gold color, but it's not paint. So, would it hurt to do everything? Not sure. I know the yagi that's on the north tower at Seahawk stadium is an anodized black version of one I use some times, and I could only see a very slight drop in performance, so they used the black one.
Doing a 4248, never seen one painted. If the paint theory holds, you could do everything. I would try it bare, first, though. Then you'll know if it mattered. And let us know what you saw, too.
Dan

Dan,
Sorry to say that I couldn't get the 4248 to work significantly better than the 4228. Called Solid Signal and they have agreed to accept it on return. I am impressed with them, that is the second return they've agreed to. I did take the 4228 and made a 4221. I also painted it (all over). Mounted it this morning without an assist to adjust antenna posistion. It does seem to be working better than the 4228. I think with tweaking I might be able to get komo and fox to both hold steady. I wasn't able to hold either of them with the 4248. It could very well be that with the proper instruments I might have been able to do better with the 4248, but it just didn't work out. I still have the second half of the 4228 unused. If I run into problems maybe there is something I can do with it too. I think you ruled out mounting two 4221's on the same pole pointed in different directions using a simple connector. But what about using a jointenna? That way I could point one towards fox and the other towards komo.......something you said on another post was interesting to me. Regarding the "signal" indication on the box (in my case it is a dish921) really indicating signal to noise ratio. That makes things clearer. I think I understand a little better why the numbers bounce so much for komo. There just has to be something that is spiking the noise (got to keep in mind that the signal itself is fine most if not all of the time). Anyway, I work repair at Qwest. SNR and PA are factors I work with everyday. They do interact, often in mysterious ways in relation to desired outcomes.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
Sorry to say that I couldn't get the 4248 to work significantly better than the 4228.
WHAT?!?!?! That's impossible...

Sorry Dan, I couldn't resist! :D

Chuck - sounds like more fiddling with location and height might be required. You can certainly try other antennas too, because they all react a little differently, as you have seen. Finding the magic combination can take a lot of time and patience. Dan has to do the same thing only he can look at the wave shape on the analyzer and see how good or bad things look compared to a previous location or antenna. Bouncing signal levels can often mean a strong reflection is being picked up. The tuner is going back and forth between the two (or more) signals trying to decide which one to lock on to. Multipath is often a devil to squash completely.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if anyone rents spectrum analyzers? Maybe Dan would hold a class on how to use one. I'm starting to think I should drag out the development tools and build an automated analyzer that gives you a simple readout of signal quality across the band. Naaa, too much work.

Originally posted by DanKurts
. ...
What I'm really waiting for is improvements in receivers to catch up to the PC cards and software I've seen some of the "local guys" use. Some of their beta stuff I've seen is blow-you-away amazing. It makes all this antenna stuff look ridiculous. When they get around to making it available for the masses, it's going to make the game much easier.
Dan
Who are these "local guys" and what hardware/software are they developing/using? Tell us more!

Originally posted by mitchwalker
Does anyone know why CBS (7) wasn't broadcasting the NCAA games in HD? I know they have been in other markets.

Only some of the games are shot by CBS in HiDef. For example, Saturday's Gonzaga game was in HD, but the Huskies game following wasn't.

KIRO's coverage of the tournament was problematic at best. While only half the tournament sites where broadcasting in HD, KIRO couldn't seem to reliably provide the HD feeds from those sites. Not sure what the problem was but there are quite a few posts a page or two back. Since there are only 4 sites for this weekends games, hopefully they'll all be in HD and KIRO won't need someone in the "control booth".

Dan (or others),

I just picked up a 4221 as suggested and I am wondering if an attenuator is recommended?

Again, I am on top of Wedgewood without obstruction to the S / SW for at least 150 - 200ft.

thanks,
brim

brim - I'm about 2 miles NE of you on the Sand Point ridge. I'm using a 4221 straight in, no preamp, no attenuator and I get excellent reception on all channels except 28, 33 and 51 which I don't care about. I would start without an attenuator and add one later if you have problems. It goes right next to the receiver so it is easy to add at any time. I aimed right at QA hill and pick up the CH towers and 13 in Bremerton with no problem.

Guys, for the last 3 days, when I turn to KOMO 04-1, I get NOTHING. Are they not broadcasting? Is anyone having this problem? If someone tells me they're seeing it just fine - it's time to call DAN. ;)

Originally posted by Rondo1
Guys, for the last 3 days, when I turn to KOMO 04-1, I get NOTHING. Are they not broadcasting? Is anyone having this problem? If someone tells me they're seeing it just fine - it's time to call DAN. ;)

No problems with KOMO-DT (OTA) here. Been fine every time I have looked. HD TiVo recordings are good too.

dam*** just the answer I didn't want to hear. But thanks! :( Now I need to figure out whats going on.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
Sorry to say that I couldn't get the 4248 to work significantly better than the 4228.

Dan,
Thanks for the info and I think I will be calling you again tomorrow or very soon at any rate. I'll summarize a little. My last post was too optimistic. While I was able to get stronger numbers from komo I still had drop outs within any given 15 minute interval. Fox never passed muster on a consistent basis. I made more trips to the roof than I care to count and the cell phone is in serious need of recharging. Bought a channel master amp at Lowes and the adjustible attenuator at Radio Shack. I don't know if I can say they did that much. Called Dan sometime between 5pm and 6pm. I really do appreciate the analysis you did given my address Dan. It turns out my problem is a big hill between my house and the main sources. The trees don't help either. Before night fell, I made one more trip to the roof and swapped out the "4221" with the 4248. It is now hooked up between the 4248 to the attenuator to the CM Spartan 3 amp into the Dish921. It got too dark and I am too tired to do more tweaking tonight. I'm really not that hopeful what I can accomplish without assistance. I've really put in a lot of time and effort. Tomorrow is another day but I really am getting to a point where this is less "fun" and more along the lines of frustration. My family heads in different directions when I say I am going to the roof again and need an assist ("What does it say now?" "79, 81, 66, 56, 3, 0, 80, 87, 79, 86, 56, 7, 0" ... etc, etc, etc) Anyway, I'm too tired tonight and am starting to ramble. I am going to get those channels consistently even if it drives me back from the brink!

Hi all. I'm getting ultra frustrated out here in Monroe. I have a ratshack yagi and a cm4228. I've had about the same amount of sucess with both antennas. I get 4,5,16 in the 80+%, and 7 is hit or miss. I used to get 9-5 but left my presence about 6 months ago for some reason. I just got a 7775 because of all the success stories I've read here. With my 4228 and the 7775 it actually droped my 4,5,16 to mid seventies and is giving me 7 kinda, 9-5 still is a no go. I have the 4228 on a 6' mast on a two-story garage with a clear view to seattle minus the hill a couple of miles away. I had my yagi just resting on the down slope of my roof and I gained 7 and 9-5 barely. Keep in mind the yagi is pointing 45deg into the air while it rests on my roof.

Question 1. Am I expecting too much from my 7775? I'm only running 40' of rg-6 (double shield if that matters).

Question 2. Why would the yagi at a 45deg angle be the best solution so far.

Question 3. A friend about 3 blocks north has an 80" uhv/vhf (no preamp) and pulls all the channels even 13. What the Hell?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mason

Have you tried positioning the antenna in different locations on your roof? I know that my indoor antenna has a sweet spot here in Echo Lake (7 miles from Monroe) and no matter what I do, I cant get all of the channels in if it is not positioned there.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by Rondo1
dam*** just the answer I didn't want to hear. But thanks! :( Now I need to figure out whats going on.

Ron
Try a rescan of channels.
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
Thanks for the info and I think I will be calling you again tomorrow or very soon at any rate. I'll summarize a little. My last post was too optimistic. While I was able to get stronger numbers from komo I still had drop outs within any given 15 minute interval. Fox never passed muster on a consistent basis. I made more trips to the roof than I care to count and the cell phone is in serious need of recharging. Bought a channel master amp at Lowes and the adjustible attenuator at Radio Shack. I don't know if I can say they did that much. Called Dan sometime between 5pm and 6pm. I really do appreciate the analysis you did given my address Dan. It turns out my problem is a big hill between my house and the main sources. The trees don't help either. Before night fell, I made one more trip to the roof and swapped out the "4221" with the 4248. It is now hooked up between the 4248 to the attenuator to the CM Spartan 3 amp into the Dish921. It got too dark and I am too tired to do more tweaking tonight. I'm really not that hopeful what I can accomplish without assistance. I've really put in a lot of time and effort. Tomorrow is another day but I really am getting to a point where this is less "fun" and more along the lines of frustration. My family heads in different directions when I say I am going to the roof again and need an assist ("What does it say now?" "79, 81, 66, 56, 3, 0, 80, 87, 79, 86, 56, 7, 0" ... etc, etc, etc) Anyway, I'm too tired tonight and am starting to ramble. I am going to get those channels consistently even if it drives me back from the brink!

Chuck
I know all to well what it feels like to dog out an antenna problem. And I'm sure your brain and body is fried, so kick back.
The last place you want to be when you're like that is on a roof, tomorrow included.
So, to get you thinking positive again, before you go up there, may I offer one thing to consider? From your description above, it sounds like you might have it wired wrong. Or did you mean you have it hooked up as 4248->preamp->Spartan power supply->921 ? If you put an attenuator in there, it will short out the power supply, and nothing will be amplified.

The strong numbers, then dropouts, are most likely because your signals are very weak, not multipath. You are right on the edge of reception, and you have a pretty good receiver, because it's able to work with that really weak signal. Your S/N ratio is really pretty good, too, just very weak. The receiver is doing what's called Avalanching. A hair less signal and the decoder just quits, a hair more and it locks on and gives you pretty good numbers. My guess is you are around -12 to -16db on KOMO.
Call if you have questions.
Dan

Originally posted by Macoberly
Hi all. I'm getting ultra frustrated out here in Monroe. I have a ratshack yagi and a cm4228. I've had about the same amount of sucess with both antennas. I get 4,5,16 in the 80+%, and 7 is hit or miss. I used to get 9-5 but left my presence about 6 months ago for some reason. I just got a 7775 because of all the success stories I've read here. With my 4228 and the 7775 it actually droped my 4,5,16 to mid seventies and is giving me 7 kinda, 9-5 still is a no go. I have the 4228 on a 6' mast on a two-story garage with a clear view to seattle minus the hill a couple of miles away. I had my yagi just resting on the down slope of my roof and I gained 7 and 9-5 barely. Keep in mind the yagi is pointing 45deg into the air while it rests on my roof.

Question 1. Am I expecting too much from my 7775? I'm only running 40' of rg-6 (double shield if that matters).

Question 2. Why would the yagi at a 45deg angle be the best solution so far.

Question 3. A friend about 3 blocks north has an 80" uhv/vhf (no preamp) and pulls all the channels even 13. What the Hell?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mason

Mason
The fact that the numbers dropped on the good channels, after the 7775 was added, is a good sign you're overdriving the receiver with the amplifier, so you might try a RatShack attenuator set about half way, or about 10db. If that doesn't make any change, then your antenna is just not doing that well for ch7 and 9, or those trees on the hill in the distance could be doing a little filtering, or......
Amplifiers amplify everything, good and bad. If the waveshape of the signals on 7 and 9 are poor, you could have lots of gain and it still won't lock. Therefore, it may not be the best idea to ampliy it. Hard to tell with out a meter.

The yagi is a very different type of antenna from the 4228. You could be getting a good ch7 and 9 just from having the right angle to null some multipath or it's just in the right location. Even a foot from the other antenna might be the right spot, at least for those channels. That yagi's actual pickup element is those two loops the balun is attached to. If you get it far enough out of line, the main part of the antenna gets out of the way and the loops pick up directly, instead of normally having the signal reflected into them by the big V shaped elements on the back. And, again, it might just work better on those two channels.

As for your neighbor, he's in a different location. Obviously. And sometimes that's all it takes. He could be going through a notch in the trees on the distant hill, have more height, or any number of different things giving him the good stuff.

What's your address, or nearest cross streets?

Dan

Originally posted by quarque
Who are these "local guys" and what hardware/software are they developing/using? Tell us more!

quarque
The Media 10 guys. When I first saw their stuff in action, it was at house near the intersection of NE 27th St & 17th Ave NE, Redmond, just east of the campus. Check that on the topo. Ugly, right? I saw nothing on the meter with my test yagi. It's bottom is -22db. He wanted me to help him improve reception, as it wasn't very steady. I thought he was kidding. When I saw what he was using, no way. A Silver Sensor, in his office! Put my meter on it, zip, all channels. Yet there was a picture on his PC, most channels, although it was breaking up some. Grabbed a small yagi, like the 15-2160, went on the roof, threw a cable down through the window for testing, boom! ALL channels, no problem. I was floored. I barely had any readings on my meter, and they were ugly shapes. Asked him WTF he was using !!!
Said he was on the Media project, and they were testing software. First I had heard of them getting in to the receiver biz. He said it was some special PC type card a manufacturer had lent them for testing. Told him if he ever got it to market, it would sell like mad. After that, ran into 5 other guys, about the same time, and all were in bad locations, yet each had a different brand of card, and each was working on a different version of software. Installed their antennas, saw amazing performance, reception wise. That was 3 years ago. To give an analogy, if HD signals were like AM radio signals, all you would have to do is turn on the radio, anywhere around Puget Sound, and you would have it.
If I hadn't seen it, several times, ........
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
I know all to well what it feels like to dog out an antenna problem. And I'm sure your brain and body is fried, so kick back.
The last place you want to be when you're like that is on a roof, tomorrow included.
So, to get you thinking positive again, before you go up there, may I offer one thing to consider? From your description above, it sounds like you might have it wired wrong. Or did you mean you have it hooked up as 4248->preamp->Spartan power supply->921 ? If you put an attenuator in there, it will short out the power supply, and nothing will be amplified.

The strong numbers, then dropouts, are most likely because your signals are very weak, not multipath. You are right on the edge of reception, and you have a pretty good receiver, because it's able to work with that really weak signal. Your S/N ratio is really pretty good, too, just very weak. The receiver is doing what's called Avalanching. A hair less signal and the decoder just quits, a hair more and it locks on and gives you pretty good numbers. My guess is you are around -12 to -16db on KOMO.
Call if you have questions.
Dan

Initially had it going 921 to attenuator to inside component of the amp. It seemed to have no effect like that so I changed it around to 921 to amp to attenuator. This configuration did have visible effect being able to completely turn off the signal to being able to have what appeared to be a boost at about 1/3 rotation from the left side of the dial. Is this the correct configuration or did I have it right the first time and maybe had the outside component too far from the antenna (was on a 6ft lead now on a 1 ft lead).
Will pick up a 7775 from Pringles and return the Spartan (don't like the wiring on the Spartan and might as well use what everyone else is using).
Don't think I will be doing much roof activity till the weekend.

Thank You Dan and Chuck.

I'll give the antenuator a try. When you say half way, do you mean half way between the 2 preamp boxes? Or do I flat out remove the preamp? Thanks again.

Mason

Got it. "Half way" 10 being in between 0-20. I'm real sharp this morning. Where in the chain would I put the antenuator?

Thanks
Mason

Hi all,

Forgive me for not following the entire thread. I am sure pieces of the answer are lying around but I wonder if someone in similar situation has tried and experienced, or if the experts can give me a vote of confidence.

I am in Kenmore, 78th and 198th. Currently with indoor antennas (SS and Jensen low profile, forgot model number) I got everything except KBTC. The thing is the antennas need to be at certain location to minimize interference and sometimes they are unsightly. I wonder if I can put some bigger thing in the attic and use the house distribution R-6 to feed the receivers, hence the questions:

- Is it feasible considering long run cable and splitting?
- I assume I need the most gain, but I prefer to start from the bottom size-wise, any models that fit the bill? Oh, they have to fit the man-hole to the attic.

I am pretty handy and do not mind trials and errors, even if errors will be all that I get. All suggestions are greatly appreciated.

tuquet

Originally posted by Macoberly
Got it. "Half way" 10 being in between 0-20. I'm real sharp this morning. Where in the chain would I put the antenuator?

Thanks
Mason

Mason
Just before the receivers input. Never put anything in between the preamp and it's power supply, it will short the power, and nothing works.
Use it half way to start, then play with it from there. You'll know when it's working, the weaker channels will drop off as more attenuation is dialed in.
Check the numbers on all the channels, write it down, then dial in some more, check all the numbers, and so on. The ones that don't change much are very strong, the ones that get weak quickly, could be weak, or require antenna tweaking. This will help to get a handle on what's going on.
Dan

Thank You Dan. I'll post my results.

Mason

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Initially had it going 921 to attenuator to inside component of the amp. It seemed to have no effect like that so I changed it around to 921 to amp to attenuator. This configuration did have visible effect being able to completely turn off the signal to being able to have what appeared to be a boost at about 1/3 rotation from the left side of the dial. Is this the correct configuration or did I have it right the first time and maybe had the outside component too far from the antenna (was on a 6ft lead now on a 1 ft lead).
Will pick up a 7775 from Pringles and return the Spartan (don't like the wiring on the Spartan and might as well use what everyone else is using).
Don't think I will be doing much roof activity till the weekend.

Chuck
Try it without an attenuator, first. I doubt you'll overload it being that far over the hill. If you do use it, you most likely won't need much.
Dan

Originally posted by tuquet
Hi all,

Forgive me for not following the entire thread. I am sure pieces of the answer are lying around but I wonder if someone in similar situation has tried and experienced, or if the experts can give me a vote of confidence.

I am in Kenmore, 78th and 198th. Currently with indoor antennas (SS and Jensen low profile, forgot model number) I got everything except KBTC. The thing is the antennas need to be at certain location to minimize interference and sometimes they are unsightly. I wonder if I can put some bigger thing in the attic and use the house distribution R-6 to feed the receivers, hence the questions:

- Is it feasible considering long run cable and splitting?
- I assume I need the most gain, but I prefer to start from the bottom size-wise, any models that fit the bill? Oh, they have to fit the man-hole to the attic.

I am pretty handy and do not mind trials and errors, even if errors will be all that I get. All suggestions are greatly appreciated.

tuquet

tuquet
It's possible, but you will really get a workout!
To keep it simple, try the RatShack 15-2160. It's a small yagi, returnable if it doesn't work, and has more directionality than a 4221, needed in attics. It doesn't have a lot of gain, but you're in a pretty good spot. The roof is going to cut down the signal a lot, specially if it's tile or metal. You can go through the cable distribution of the house, but you open up another can-O-worms. UHF looses signal fast, and if you have a 4way or more splitter, than you will definitely need to amplify it BEFORE the splitter. Again, RatShack has a small indoor 10 to 15db amp you could try. You will need power some where in the attic to plug it in. Tried to find the model number on the web site, but they only show the outdoor version. Don't get that one, at least not yet. It might be a bit too much. Important: if you have a 4way splitter, be sure every outlet it's feeding has a terminator or TV connected. You don't want any open cables. They act like antennas and will back feed signal into the other cables, and cause other problems, not a good thing.
It would be better if you bypass the splitter and just use the one long run to your set. You will still probably need a small amp, YMMV !
The second antenna to try would be the 4221. It must mount vertically to work properly. You may not need a preamp if you have one long run to the set.
Last, forget ch28. It's possible, but not likely. If your antenna was outdoors, then you might have a shot at it.
If you want to play outside, and the SS antenna is not an amplified version, try it. If it works better, and you keep the run short, it might work. If you use the long run to get there, then a small amp might do it. The SS is small enough you can mount it most anywhere, and not be very noticeable. Not the most scientific job, but if it works, and you seal the connections.....
Dan

Thanks Dan. Looks like the quest for signal distribution is larger than I thought but may still be doable. I think I will get the 15-2160 and try to run it without splitting first and see how it turns out. I got like an 8-way splitting panel but currently only need 2 feeds. If that works I may settle with a 2-way splitting for now and worry about amplification later. I do have power inside the distribution panel so putting an amplifer there should not be a problem, the run from the antenna to that point should not be too long. That said, it will probably take me a while to experiment with this as my wife would say "If it aint broke...".

The SS is non-amplified but I prefer to stay indoors, for now. Oh, and the roof is that common composition stuff that you see everywhere, does it handicap reception?

Thanks,
tuquet

What store in the Seattle area is a good source for a 4221? Thanks! John

Dan,
Hooked up the 4248 again with a 7775 amp and started moving the antenna from due south towards the west in 2 inch moves. I didn't get anything for komo until I was pointed due west and then it was up and down without even getting strong spikes. The direction of the antenna really seemed strange to me. Could I have a defective 4248? I am pretty certain I had it connected up correctly. Because I was getting something at least from my 4221 yesterday I reconnected it using the new 7775 amp (also skipping the attenuator). The strongest signal using the 4221 comes in exactly where I thought it should. I am so far getting komo to hold steady between 75 and 91 (no drops). Fox is not usable (didn't think it would be). Kiro is holding steady around 90. King is all over the map. It peaks at 105 and then dives to zero. Attached the attenuator but it didn't help. Could king just be doing something strange today? I have not had a problem with king's signal before. I know the 4248 is a lot more antenna than that little 4221 I have up there now. So the question is what is it about the 4221 has that makes it work (at least for now). Is it the lack of directionality? I am beginning to wonder if the 4228 with 775 might have been better if I had stuck with it. Isn't the 4221 less directional than the
4228? What would you suggest as a next step? I might have komo now but I just have the sneaky feeling that it won't last. Any other antenna out there that might work better at getting a signal through that hill? Any tricks for stabilizing the fluctuating signals I'm getting?

Threads merged.

Originally posted by JM Anthony
What store in the Seattle area is a good source for a 4221? Thanks! John

John
I already tried one there. Wasn't as good. It might work on the south side, however.
I'll call you tomorrow, maybe we can move it if you have some free time again.
Dan

Originally posted by tuquet
Thanks Dan. Looks like the quest for signal distribution is larger than I thought but may still be doable. I think I will get the 15-2160 and try to run it without splitting first and see how it turns out. I got like an 8-way splitting panel but currently only need 2 feeds. If that works I may settle with a 2-way splitting for now and worry about amplification later. I do have power inside the distribution panel so putting an amplifer there should not be a problem, the run from the antenna to that point should not be too long. That said, it will probably take me a while to experiment with this as my wife would say "If it aint broke...".

The SS is non-amplified but I prefer to stay indoors, for now. Oh, and the roof is that common composition stuff that you see everywhere, does it handicap reception?

Thanks,
tuquet

tuquet
A little, but not as bad as tile. You also loose some in the rain. The wood blocks as well as splattering signal around inside. Can get real tricky. Patience is the key.
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
Hooked up the 4248 again with a 7775 amp and started moving the antenna from due south towards the west in 2 inch moves. I didn't get anything for komo until I was pointed due west and then it was up and down without even getting strong spikes. The direction of the antenna really seemed strange to me. Could I have a defective 4248? I am pretty certain I had it connected up correctly. Because I was getting something at least from my 4221 yesterday I reconnected it using the new 7775 amp (also skipping the attenuator). The strongest signal using the 4221 comes in exactly where I thought it should. I am so far getting komo to hold steady between 75 and 91 (no drops). Fox is not usable (didn't think it would be). Kiro is holding steady around 90. King is all over the map. It peaks at 105 and then dives to zero. Attached the attenuator but it didn't help. Could king just be doing something strange today? I have not had a problem with king's signal before. I know the 4248 is a lot more antenna than that little 4221 I have up there now. So the question is what is it about the 4221 has that makes it work (at least for now). Is it the lack of directionality? I am beginning to wonder if the 4228 with 775 might have been better if I had stuck with it. Isn't the 4221 less directional than the
4228? What would you suggest as a next step? I might have komo now but I just have the sneaky feeling that it won't last. Any other antenna out there that might work better at getting a signal through that hill? Any tricks for stabilizing the fluctuating signals I'm getting?

Chuck
At this point, I'm wondering about the antenna, too. Did you use the same balun on both antennas, or does each have it's own?
Normally, when they do better sideways, it's because there's a big "hole" in the signal waveshape. They don't have as much gain that way, but can act like an equalizer and help flatten the signal. If you have enough gain to make it work, then it's okay. In your case, obviously you don't.
The 4221 is wider than the 4228, and much more so than the 4248.
Ch5 is bouncing around most likely from tree movement in the distance.
At this point, I would really need to see what the meter shows. Anything else is just guessing. We're missing something obvious, and it might be a tree or ?? I assume you've tried other locations on the roof, or is that not feasable?
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
At this point, I'm wondering about the antenna, too. Did you use the same balun on both antennas, or does each have it's own?
Normally, when they do better sideways, it's because there's a big "hole" in the signal waveshape. They don't have as much gain that way, but can act like an equalizer and help flatten the signal. If you have enough gain to make it work, then it's okay. In your case, obviously you don't.
The 4221 is wider than the 4228, and much more so than the 4248.
Ch5 is bouncing around most likely from tree movement in the distance.
At this point, I would really need to see what the meter shows. Anything else is just guessing. We're missing something obvious, and it might be a tree or ?? I assume you've tried other locations on the roof, or is that not feasable?
Dan

Before answering I need to mention that while folding the 4248 back up yesterday I damaged it. Broke off one of the small diamonds. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to reattach it, but haven't tried yet.
I used the seperate baluns that came with each antenna, and I followed the instructions regarding which side of the antenna to attach to so you have to put the metal piece on the screw and then tie it down under the washer with the wing nut. I had the diamonds lined up nice and straight with the diamonds facing so the cupped sides were forward. I had no trouble with 5 using the 4228 without an amp. 5 was a great signal that never dropped. The position on the roof is the highest point I can get and the only place where I get above the nearby trees. I imagine you could tell more using your scope. But the chimney is the simplist mount for me and it is as clear a shot as I have up there.

It seems to me I was having more luck with the 4228 before I stripped it down into a 4221. I have ordered another 4228 to try again with the 7775.
One thing that I haven't mentioned is that when I first got the 4228 (before I started posting here) it was my intention to mount it in the attic.
To get it into the attic I had to remove the mesh off the back. After the attic experiment I put the mesh back on. It is possible that in that process I might have put something out of allignment on the working part of the antenna. (At least I am hoping that I'll get better results with a new one that hasn't been handled as much.) Regarding the amp. Is it probably best just to work under the assumption that it is needed. Can it hurt to use it? I know I don't have to worry over an overly strong signal but does the 7775 do a good job of amplifying without adding interference? Is the part of the 7775 that attaches to the pole passive if the power isn't attached? What I mean is to check to see if I'm better off with or without amp can I just leave that box on the pole and add or remove the power? I'm going to swap that attenuator from radio shack thinking it might have been defective as well. Thanks again for your help.

Looks like KOMO is having problems again. I thought after 2 weeks of perfect viewing during Alias that they may have worked out their kinks, but I guess not. Neither Lost or Alias was broadcast in HiDef last night =( Oh well gave me a chance to switch my single OTA-HD Tuner on my 921 over to West Wing and record it in HiDef this week and record Alias off the Sat SD signal.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Before answering I need to mention that while folding the 4248 back up yesterday I damaged it. Broke off one of the small diamonds. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to reattach it, but haven't tried yet.
I used the seperate baluns that came with each antenna, and I followed the instructions regarding which side of the antenna to attach to so you have to put the metal piece on the screw and then tie it down under the washer with the wing nut. I had the diamonds lined up nice and straight with the diamonds facing so the cupped sides were forward. I had no trouble with 5 using the 4228 without an amp. 5 was a great signal that never dropped. The position on the roof is the highest point I can get and the only place where I get above the nearby trees. I imagine you could tell more using your scope. But the chimney is the simplist mount for me and it is as clear a shot as I have up there.

It seems to me I was having more luck with the 4228 before I stripped it down into a 4221. I have ordered another 4228 to try again with the 7775.
One thing that I haven't mentioned is that when I first got the 4228 (before I started posting here) it was my intention to mount it in the attic.
To get it into the attic I had to remove the mesh off the back. After the attic experiment I put the mesh back on. It is possible that in that process I might have put something out of allignment on the working part of the antenna. (At least I am hoping that I'll get better results with a new one that hasn't been handled as much.) Regarding the amp. Is it probably best just to work under the assumption that it is needed. Can it hurt to use it? I know I don't have to worry over an overly strong signal but does the 7775 do a good job of amplifying without adding interference? Is the part of the 7775 that attaches to the pole passive if the power isn't attached? What I mean is to check to see if I'm better off with or without amp can I just leave that box on the pole and add or remove the power? I'm going to swap that attenuator from radio shack thinking it might have been defective as well. Thanks again for your help.

Chuck
The 7775 does a great job of amplifying, but it all depends on the noise level around you. It has a low noise figure and, aside from very expensive custom ones, about the best for the money. You can always just put a barrel fitting in the cable and bypass the preamp if you want to, just seal it well if that works best. Using it with out the power supply is like a big attenuator, very little passes through. I would think you need the7775, in any case. I usually do when encountering a big hill like yours.
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
Looks like KOMO is having problems again. I thought after 2 weeks of perfect viewing during Alias that they may have worked out their kinks, but I guess not. Neither Lost or Alias was broadcast in HiDef last night =( Oh well gave me a chance to switch my single OTA-HD Tuner on my 921 over to West Wing and record it in HiDef this week and record Alias off the Sat SD signal.

See Don Wilkinson's post at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5376810#post5376810 regarding the lost of HD @ KOMO

Is the UW game in HD? Anyone have reliable info on this?

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Is the UW game in HD? Anyone have reliable info on this?

CBS previously said all games from sweet 16 on would be in HD. I haven't seen any information lately though that would indicate today's game would be in HD. On my comcast box, the guide doesn't have the game listed as HD. Guess we'll see. Too bad I'll be at work and then stuck driving on 520 during the game :)

Originally posted by Slev
CBS previously said all games from sweet 16 on would be in HD. I haven't seen any information lately though that would indicate today's game would be in HD. On my comcast box, the guide doesn't have the game listed as HD. Guess we'll see. Too bad I'll be at work and then stuck driving on 520 during the game :)

thats what I heard too, but KIRO-DT shows SD...in the past they correctly showed HD when applicable, so I am concerned. Besides KIRO's track record isnt good with this whole tourny in HD thang.

I'm getting blue bars! A good sign!

It's in HD! Looks great. WTG KIRO!

Lookin' solid OTA! Huzzah!

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
The 7775 does a great job of amplifying, but it all depends on the noise level around you. It has a low noise figure and, aside from very expensive custom ones, about the best for the money. You can always just put a barrel fitting in the cable and bypass the preamp if you want to, just seal it well if that works best. Using it with out the power supply is like a big attenuator, very little passes through. I would think you need the7775, in any case. I usually do when encountering a big hill like yours.
Dan

Did it sound like I had the correct connections for the 4248? It just seems wierd that the angle of reception was so far west. It was actually working for kstw (my strongest station regardless) pointed west northwest and not at all in the direction it was suppossed to be. I've looked the 4248 over again and with the exception of the damage I did to the one diamond (what is the actual name for those metal parts with the plastic mounts that gather the signal?) I think everything is in order.

After posting this I found the PM..made additional post there.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Did it sound like I had the correct connections for the 4248? It just seems wierd that the angle of reception was so far west. It was actually working for kstw (my strongest station regardless) pointed west northwest and not at all in the direction it was suppossed to be. I've looked the 4248 over again and with the exception of the damage I did to the one diamond (what is the actual name for those metal parts with the plastic mounts that gather the signal?) I think everything is in order.

After posting this I found the PM..made additional post there.

Chuck
Answered your PM
Dan

Originally posted by robglasser
Looks like KOMO is having problems again. I thought after 2 weeks of perfect viewing during Alias that they may have worked out their kinks, but I guess not. Neither Lost or Alias was broadcast in HiDef last night =( Oh well gave me a chance to switch my single OTA-HD Tuner on my 921 over to West Wing and record it in HiDef this week and record Alias off the Sat SD signal.

robglasser,
Check the PM section. I just "discovered" it and replied to you.

A new (almost) show from Bill Nye, "The Eyes of Nye" is set to premiere on KCTS-HD, April 5, with two episodes, 8-9 pm.

At this point I don't know if the show was produced in HD (maybe just the pilot).

If someone records the show for me and it's in HD, I will be your friend forever.

The show was produced in HD, but I'm told KCTS failed to sell it to PBS.

"The Eyes of Nye" is being distributed by American Public Television. A number of stations around the country are picking it up, but there's no indication that APT will distribute it in HD. I'm hoping it will appear in HD on KCTS.

I apologize if this has been asked before but I have searched this thread and am not finding the answer.

I'm about to move to Puyallup, Washington (zip 98374) from out of state and am trying to figure out if the L.A. feeds of the local channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc.) are available in the Seattle area over DirecTV.

I'm currently using a DirecTV HDTivo and am receiving the local L.A versions of ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc. I know a roof antenna isn't going to work where I'm at due to 100'+ trees everywhere on my lot and neighbor's lots but am wondering if when I move to Puyallup soon I'll be able to stay with DirecTV or will have to switch to Comcast in order to get locals in HDTV.

Thanks!

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
The 7775 does a great job of amplifying, but it all depends on the noise level around you. It has a low noise figure and, aside from very expensive custom ones, about the best for the money. You can always just put a barrel fitting in the cable and bypass the preamp if you want to, just seal it well if that works best. Using it with out the power supply is like a big attenuator, very little passes through. I would think you need the7775, in any case. I usually do when encountering a big hill like yours.
Dan

I think I might have it now. My mistake in hooking up the balun to the wrong side of the 4248 (I guess I don't think as clearly on the roof as I do on the ground). After getting that straightened out have the 4248 going to the 7775 with no attenuation. Found the best possible direction for signal levels for the main stations and had the pole as high as it would go on the chimney. Komo was still hit and miss and kcpq would not hold signal. But given that I have been having such a bad time with this I was almost willing to let it go at that but ... well you know, got to keep tweaking. Lowered the antenna approx 3 feet pointing in the same direction. Must have hit a sweet spot. No losses on komo since the height adjustment despite the less than perfect weather this weekend.

Readings on the dish921 ...
komo 78-82 (the problem with dips has stabilized so far)
king 100-107 (very stable)
kiro 87-91 (remaining stable)
kcts 91-95 (remaining stable)
kstw 120-125 (great! if only they would keep their best show, enterprise)
kcpq 0-75 (time to think about that rs2160 and a jointenna?)
kong 0 (not that concerned)
ktwb 107-112 (very stable, too bad I don't watch it much)

There are several channels that I do get great but I don't watch.

Thanks for your help everyone. I do hope I have it beaten now. Time will tell. I know I can get kcpq if I point the 4248 more towards the west, but I lose the major stations by doing so. Dan, regardless if this is "it" or not I am very thankful for your advice and patience and one thing I do know is I'd be still floundering without your help.

instead of two antennas why not just use a rotator? It works great to dial in your signal.

I do a lot of DVR timer recordings on the dish921. Also have a big family and am not the only using it. I just think the chances are likely that the recorder is going to fire with the antenna pointed the wrong way.

Wayne. I am pretty sure you are out of luck getting waivers for the national feeds. You could try now before the move. Also You could still try an antenna before you give up on direct TV. I hope DirecTV has HD locals in a year or less via satellite for those in your position. I believe some have even put a antenna up top of one of those 100foot firs to get hd OTA..

Easiest solution might be cable.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
I do a lot of DVR timer recordings on the dish921. Also have a big family and am not the only using it. I just think the chances are likely that the recorder is going to fire with the antenna pointed the wrong way.

I hear you. my family uses the DirecTV Ulitmate TV for PVR stuff. we get our locals for SD via sat. Also I am lucky that I get all locals without moving the antenna. The rotator lets me optimise the signal though. And its fun to play with. When the antenna is turning the motor noise spooks our two Dalmations and they bark. :)

Good to read that the 4248 is working for you. I like mine. Also did you rivet the broken element back on?

Thanks wezar. I have the L.A. HDTV feeds down here in So. Cal. but I'm guessing once I update the billing address on my account to Washington they'll cut the L.A. feeds, hmmm...

You do have electronic billing and autopay? ;)

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
I apologize if this has been asked before but I have searched this thread and am not finding the answer.

I'm about to move to Puyallup, Washington (zip 98374) from out of state and am trying to figure out if the L.A. feeds of the local channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc.) are available in the Seattle area over DirecTV.

I'm currently using a DirecTV HDTivo and am receiving the local L.A versions of ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc. I know a roof antenna isn't going to work where I'm at due to 100'+ trees everywhere on my lot and neighbor's lots but am wondering if when I move to Puyallup soon I'll be able to stay with DirecTV or will have to switch to Comcast in order to get locals in HDTV.

Thanks!

Wayne
I just went through this with another customer. They (Direct) go strictly by zip code. I know it doesn't make it very fair, but that's the game given them by the NAB. I have tried other Puyallup zips and they all failed. Waivers ain't gonna happen. When you call them, ask for the HD East/West feeds, and then give them the zip code. Who knows, you might get lucky. I have had one person in Port Ludlow get approved.
As for getting local HD, send an address, I'll check it against what I know and the topo. It is possible in South Hill, just depends on the tree situation.
If it doesn't happen, Comcast will have the locals in HD.
Before you commit to Direct, might want to have the sight checked for satellite, too. Can get tricky trying to get reception in the tall firs.
Dan

I e-mailed Direct about it including providing the Puyallup zip code and they sent me a generic e-mail response telling me to go to their website. I'll e-mail it over, thanks Dan.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
I think I might have it now. My mistake in hooking up the balun to the wrong side of the 4248 (I guess I don't think as clearly on the roof as I do on the ground). After getting that straightened out have the 4248 going to the 7775 with no attenuation. Found the best possible direction for signal levels for the main stations and had the pole as high as it would go on the chimney. Komo was still hit and miss and kcpq would not hold signal. But given that I have been having such a bad time with this I was almost willing to let it go at that but ... well you know, got to keep tweaking. Lowered the antenna approx 3 feet pointing in the same direction. Must have hit a sweet spot. No losses on komo since the height adjustment despite the less than perfect weather this weekend.

Readings on the dish921 ...
komo 78-82 (the problem with dips has stabilized so far)
king 100-107 (very stable)
kiro 87-91 (remaining stable)
kcts 91-95 (remaining stable)
kstw 120-125 (great! if only they would keep their best show, enterprise)
kcpq 0-75 (time to think about that rs2160 and a jointenna?)
kong 0 (not that concerned)
ktwb 107-112 (very stable, too bad I don't watch it much)

There are several channels that I do get great but I don't watch.

Thanks for your help everyone. I do hope I have it beaten now. Time will tell. I know I can get kcpq if I point the 4248 more towards the west, but I lose the major stations by doing so. Dan, regardless if this is "it" or not I am very thankful for your advice and patience and one thing I do know is I'd be still floundering without your help.

Chuck
Well Done! Patience wins out.
To see if a yagi will get 13, spin the existing antenna/preamp setup around to the west a little, and see what gives. If it works, or gets close, then try the 4221 on the top of the mast, connect it to the 7775, and see what's there. If it works, then use a JoinTenna for ch 13 to couple the two antennas. Then feed that to the 7775. Make sure the bottom of the 4221 is above the top of the 4248 slightly.
Dan

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
I e-mailed Direct about it and they sent me a generic e-mail response telling me to go to their website. I'll e-mail it over, thanks Dan.

Wayne
I wouldn't try the game through the e-mail. Call instead. Of those I know that did get it, they all used their charm and gift for gab.
Dan

Just an update here in Monroe. I got an antenuator from ratshack. I did increase 4 and 5, but as a downside even lowered the signals I'm trying to get (obviously). I decided to take a break from it for a few days. I never looked at the weather until it was too late. It looks like I'll have to wait a week. One question though. I was under the impression that 4,5, and 7 all broadcast from the same tower. Is this true? If so, and if 7(39) was broadcasting at the same strength as 4(38), shouldn't the signal be relatively the same?

Mason

A contact at KCTS confirmed that "The Eyes of Nye" was produced in HD. He said that it won't be distributed via satellite in HD, though stations could arrange for a wide-screen version to be delivered on tape. He didn't mention whether KCTS itself would air the show in HD.

Again, if someone can record it for me and it's HD, I'd be very grateful, and willing to trade from my extensive and unique collection of recorded HDTV programs and movies.

"The Eyes of Nye" premieres on KCTS-HDTV Tuesday, May 5, 8-9 pm.

Originally posted by Macoberly
Just an update here in Monroe. I got an antenuator from ratshack. I did increase 4 and 5, but as a downside even lowered the signals I'm trying to get (obviously). I decided to take a break from it for a few days. I never looked at the weather until it was too late. It looks like I'll have to wait a week. One question though. I was under the impression that 4,5, and 7 all broadcast from the same tower. Is this true? If so, and if 7(39) was broadcasting at the same strength as 4(38), shouldn't the signal be relatively the same?

Mason
4, 5 & 7 are not on the same tower, but on 3 towers within a few blocks of each other on top of QA hill. Each has different radiation pattern and is received differently (all else being equal) in different areas. Then there are the things that affect each one (the part that is not all equal). Many people get two out of the three and have trouble with the third. And it is not the same station giving trouble for each - trouble is about equally spread around among the three. You may be dealing with one or more strong reflections since attenuation helped 4 & 5. You need to play the game of antenna location & height or changing antennas. Sometimes it just takes a different antenna to get the right combination.

Thanks for the reply quarque. I want to try 4248 next I think (currently using 4228). It's interesting that the only way I get 7 is at a 20-30 degree pitch. I'm going to have to figure out how to mount my antenna this way.

Mason

Originally posted by Macoberly
Thanks for the reply quarque. I want to try 4248 next I think (currently using 4228). It's interesting that the only way I get 7 is at a 20-30 degree pitch. I'm going to have to figure out how to mount my antenna this way.

Mason

So you're saying you tilt it "back" 20-30 dgrees? Sounds like some major multipath going on there.

Yes, quarque. I tilt it back 20-30 degrees. My neighbors antenna is about 10-15ft to the left of my line of site and about 30 feet ahead of me. Is that what would be causing multipath? Other than that there is nothing in my way for a couple of miles, which are trees.

Thanks

Mason

Originally posted by balazer
A new (almost) show from Bill Nye, "The Eyes of Nye" is set to premiere on KCTS-HD, April 5, with two episodes, 8-9 pm.

At this point I don't know if the show was produced in HD (maybe just the pilot).

If someone records the show for me and it's in HD, I will be your friend forever.

You could tune KCTS-HD in directly there if you had Bell ExpressVue (a.k.a., BEV) satellite service. But I don't believe they have an HD DVR offering.

I just set up a Season Pass on my HD TiVo. The DirecTV program guide shows the same episode "Nuclear Energy" appearing five times starting April 5th. The guide does not mention letterbox or HD, but that is not uncommon for KCTS.

Originally posted by Macoberly
Yes, quarque. I tilt it back 20-30 degrees. My neighbors antenna is about 10-15ft to the left of my line of site and about 30 feet ahead of me. Is that what would be causing multipath? Other than that there is nothing in my way for a couple of miles, which are trees.

Thanks

Mason

Mason
The neighbors antenna is not bothering you. I've seen multipath like that on QA hill, Magnolia, Lake Union, but you're too far away from town, and the distant hill to have an effect like that, and with nothing else around you. Most likely you have a problem with your antenna, balun, or it's wires getting twisted up.
Dan

Originally posted by wezar
I hear you. my family uses the DirecTV Ulitmate TV for PVR stuff. we get our locals for SD via sat. Also I am lucky that I get all locals without moving the antenna. The rotator lets me optimise the signal though. And its fun to play with. When the antenna is turning the motor noise spooks our two Dalmations and they bark. :)

Good to read that the 4248 is working for you. I like mine. Also did you rivet the broken element back on?

Growing up, my family always had Dalmations. Interesting creatures they are. Rivet the broken element? Really wish I had done something as permanent as that. The element broke off in such a way that I was able to slide the existing rivet back where it was. Snug fit. Then I wrapped it tightly with electrical tape. At the time I was pretty confident either that would do, or that if needed I could address it again later. Now that the antenna is actually working I am extremely reluctant to mess with it. They are talking about hail and 50 mph gusts today. Guess I'll see if the element is going to hold as is.

edit 3/30 - The element remains intact after the storms. So far so good.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
Well Done! Patience wins out.
To see if a yagi will get 13, spin the existing antenna/preamp setup around to the west a little, and see what gives. If it works, or gets close, then try the 4221 on the top of the mast, connect it to the 7775, and see what's there. If it works, then use a JoinTenna for ch 13 to couple the two antennas. Then feed that to the 7775. Make sure the bottom of the 4221 is above the top of the 4248 slightly.
Dan

Dan,
Checked several times last night and komo was still solid despite all that wind. Reluctant now to even go near the mast. You know how problematic it was that I'd even get what I seem to have now. Its like finding a shadow in the dark without the right equipment. I am thinking that it might be best to not touch the existing setup unless I need to do maintenance or the reception fails.

I'm relocating to Bellingham, west of I-5 and would appreciate any commentary on the chances of receiving any Seattle HD OTA.

Thanks,
GTD

Threads merged.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
You could tune KCTS-HD in directly there if you had Bell ExpressVue (a.k.a., BEV) satellite service. But I don't believe they have an HD DVR offering.

I just set up a Season Pass on my HD TiVo. The DirecTV program guide shows the same episode "Nuclear Energy" appearing five times starting April 5th. The guide does not mention letterbox or HD, but that is not uncommon for KCTS.
Yeah, I cannot justify the cost of a BEV recording system and service just on the speculation that these 13 half-hour episodes will be in HD.

For a one-time thing like this, it's more practical to try to find someone willing to record "The Eyes of Nye" for me, and trade.

Originally posted by balazer
Yeah, I cannot justify the cost of a BEV recording system and service just on the speculation that these 13 half-hour episodes will be in HD.

For a one-time thing like this, it's more practical to try to find someone willing to record "The Eyes of Nye" for me, and trade.

I would be willing to assist in some way, but all of my recordings are on unhacked DirecTV with TiVo SD and HD DVRs, and I am not aware of any means of sharing except through analog outputs for recordings on DVD or VHS tape.

I will try to remember to let you know whether the program is actually delivered in HD locally on KCTS-HD.

Originally posted by grovertdog
I'm relocating to Bellingham, west of I-5 and would appreciate any commentary on the chances of receiving any Seattle HD OTA.

Thanks,
GTD
It depends *very much* on exactly where you are. There are places that are totally blocked by hills to the south and places that are not. Post your nearest intersection or PM me your address so I can do a LOS plot. You would be close to 80 miles from the Seattle towers so you will need a very good antenna mounted up very high (>40 feet) with nothing in front of it for the first mile going south. Even after all that it may take a lot of experimentation and patience. There are numerous people on AVS who manage decent DT reception at 85-90 miles. Most have a 60+ foot tower and expensive antennas (often stacked). So if you are up for a challenge...

Thanks, Q, you have pm.

GTD

I'm trying to get rid of my drop out problem on Channel 9 when it is windy. Since it only happens when it's windy, and not when it's just raining hard I'm sure it's got to be trees and I assume they need to be somewhat close. I'm thinking it's one of the following and am looking for feedback on which people think it is.

Right now I have a fairly large cedar tree about 20 feet south and maybe 8 - 10 feet east of my antenna. When I look from my antenna (4221) in the direction it's pointing (angled between Queen Anne (south) and Bremerton (southwest)) this tree and it's branches are not obstructing it. If I look due south I could see how a few of it's branches may be in the path.

The only other trees directly to the south of me are 2 other large cedars, close to each other so their branches overlap, located on the back side of my neighbor's property across our street, maybe 200 feet or so to the south.

Before I go through the motion to try and move my antenna to another location on the roof I'm just trying to make sure the issue isn't the tree that is practically next to the antenna. If it is I can probably borrow a ladder tall enough from a neighbor to go up and cut some of the offending branches off.

I'm working from home today, maybe I'll run up on the roof and take pictures to post later today.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
You could tune KCTS-HD in directly there if you had Bell ExpressVue (a.k.a., BEV) satellite service. But I don't believe they have an HD DVR offering.

I just set up a Season Pass on my HD TiVo. The DirecTV program guide shows the same episode "Nuclear Energy" appearing five times starting April 5th. The guide does not mention letterbox or HD, but that is not uncommon for KCTS.

It's been years since I've looked into getting ExpressVu...how would I go about being a subscriber in the Seattle area?

I could go up to Vancouver and buy it and install it myself...no problem...but in the past I needed to have a Canadian billing address to subscribe...has this changed?

Originally posted by robglasser
I'm trying to get rid of my drop out problem on Channel 9 when it is windy. Since it only happens when it's windy, and not when it's just raining hard I'm sure it's got to be trees and I assume they need to be somewhat close. I'm thinking it's one of the following and am looking for feedback on which people think it is.

Right now I have a fairly large cedar tree about 20 feet south and maybe 8 - 10 feet east of my antenna. When I look from my antenna (4221) in the direction it's pointing (angled between Queen Anne (south) and Bremerton (southwest)) this tree and it's branches are not obstructing it. If I look due south I could see how a few of it's branches may be in the path.

The only other trees directly to the south of me are 2 other large cedars, close to each other so their branches overlap, located on the back side of my neighbor's property across our street, maybe 200 feet or so to the south.

Before I go through the motion to try and move my antenna to another location on the roof I'm just trying to make sure the issue isn't the tree that is practically next to the antenna. If it is I can probably borrow a ladder tall enough from a neighbor to go up and cut some of the offending branches off.

I'm working from home today, maybe I'll run up on the roof and take pictures to post later today.

Dan told me that when you have drops only when it's windy the problem is trees. Nine is slightly more south than most of the stations. Whether the problem is in whole or in part caused by the branches is impossible to say but it probably wouldn't do any harm to cut the branches and hope for the best. Good luck and be careful on the ladder.

Here's my final update on getting my attenna working (for now). I finally got my wife to help me out. I got on the roof with the 4228 on a mast and walked around looking for a good signal on 7 and 9. Just like I read, moving it a few feet fixed the vast majority of my problems. The new resting spot for the 4228 is about 5 feet south and about 2-3 feet lower. I'm now getting around a 70 percent signal strength on both channels. Hoooray! I now have everything working except fox. I'm sure I'll revive that battle closer to football season. Thanks again Dan and quarque. Your help proved to be invaluable.

Mason

Originally posted by NHLFAN
It's been years since I've looked into getting ExpressVu...how would I go about being a subscriber in the Seattle area?

I could go up to Vancouver and buy it and install it myself...no problem...but in the past I needed to have a Canadian billing address to subscribe...has this changed?

NHLFAN
Search this huge thread, somewhere there's info on this. I did a job for a guy in the Port Orchard area installing one. He had all the details on how you go about getting it and working the billing part.
As far as the install goes, you're looking at a more easterly shot and lower on the horizon. About 25 degrees elevation and 88 and 90 degrees azimuth, I think. Means you really need to be in an open area to the SE, or have very low trees.
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Growing up, my family always had Dalmations. Interesting creatures they are. Rivet the broken element? Really wish I had done something as permanent as that. The element broke off in such a way that I was able to slide the existing rivet back where it was. Snug fit. Then I wrapped it tightly with electrical tape. At the time I was pretty confident either that would do, or that if needed I could address it again later. Now that the antenna is actually working I am extremely reluctant to mess with it. They are talking about hail and 50 mph gusts today. Guess I'll see if the element is going to hold as is.

edit 3/30 - The element remains intact after the storms. So far so good.

Chuck
Don't sweat the broken piece. I would bet it wouldn't make any difference if it did fall off. Eventually, the tape will start to loosen and unwrap itself. Wrap a zip tie around the tape and it will last forever.
Or, "don't worry, be happy" !
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
Checked several times last night and komo was still solid despite all that wind. Reluctant now to even go near the mast. You know how problematic it was that I'd even get what I seem to have now. Its like finding a shadow in the dark without the right equipment. I am thinking that it might be best to not touch the existing setup unless I need to do maintenance or the reception fails.

Chuck
If it ain't broke.... ;)
Dan

Originally posted by Macoberly
Here's my final update on getting my attenna working (for now). I finally got my wife to help me out. I got on the roof with the 4228 on a mast and walked around looking for a good signal on 7 and 9. Just like I read, moving it a few feet fixed the vast majority of my problems. The new resting spot for the 4228 is about 5 feet south and about 2-3 feet lower. I'm now getting around a 70 percent signal strength on both channels. Hoooray! I now have everything working except fox. I'm sure I'll revive that battle closer to football season. Thanks again Dan and quarque. Your help proved to be invaluable.

Mason

Mason
Well Done !
Dan

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan told me that when you have drops only when it's windy the problem is trees. Nine is slightly more south than most of the stations. Whether the problem is in whole or in part caused by the branches is impossible to say but it probably wouldn't do any harm to cut the branches and hope for the best. Good luck and be careful on the ladder.

Ya, I figured it was branches swaying in the wind. Just trying to figure out if it's the ones almost right next to the antenna, only a few feet away, but not in direct line of sight facing south. Or, if its the more dense cluster of branches directly south of me about 200 feet away. I'm guessing it's the big trees about 200 feet away, but figured I'd ask for other's opinions.

I angled the antenna a bit more towards the south. It didn't appear to impact KCPQ, hoping maybe it will strengthen the signal for 9 by doing so. Time to wait for the next windy day. =)

Thanks

Originally posted by robglasser
Ya, I figured it was branches swaying in the wind. Just trying to figure out if it's the ones almost right next to the antenna, only a few feet away, but not in direct line of sight facing south. Or, if its the more dense cluster of branches directly south of me about 200 feet away. I'm guessing it's the big trees about 200 feet away, but figured I'd ask for other's opinions.

I angled the antenna a bit more towards the south. It didn't appear to impact KCPQ, hoping maybe it will strengthen the signal for 9 by doing so. Time to wait for the next windy day. =)

Thanks

In my case, I had two main problems to deal with. A big hill (that I can't even see from here) that I think you manage to avoid. Dan says the tree problem I have is just accumulated trees in the direction of the antenna (many of which are probably not visible to me). My guess would be the same is true for you, but then again I remember other comments about the 4221 being more susceptable to close-in trees. The fact that I seem to have finally picked up komo consistently (apparently, even on windy days) by lowering the antenna approx 3 feet seems counter-intuitive to me. I have no idea why it works better that way.

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
In my case, I had two main problems to deal with. A big hill (that I can't even see from here) that I think you manage to avoid. Dan says the tree problem I have is just accumulated trees in the direction of the antenna (many of which are probably not visible to me). My guess would be the same is true for you, but then again I remember other comments about the 4221 being more susceptable to close-in trees. The fact that I seem to have finally picked up komo consistently (apparently, even on windy days) by lowering the antenna approx 3 feet seems counter-intuitive to me. I have no idea why it works better that way.

Chuck
It's because you're going under the tree canopy. The ones close to you, with in a 1/4 mile at your distance, can do you in. On the Mill Creek Golf course homes I've done, it works out better, usually, to be lower! Up at Klahanee, too. It's wierd, sometimes, but when they say UHF is line of sight, they aren't kidding. You literally thread your way through, sometimes.
Whatever works, just don't rule out any location, unless you're right up against something.
Dan

Originally posted by balazer
"The Eyes of Nye" is being distributed by American Public Television. A number of stations around the country are picking it up, but there's no indication that APT will distribute it in HD. I'm hoping it will appear in HD on KCTS.

so far, only KCTS has listed their showing in HD. All other airings look to be SD for sure.

Yes, KCTS confirmed that satellite distribution of "Eyes of Nye" is SD. They said stations could get SD wide-screen versions on tape.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
It's because you're going under the tree canopy. The ones close to you, with in a 1/4 mile at your distance, can do you in. On the Mill Creek Golf course homes I've done, it works out better, usually, to be lower! Up at Klahanee, too. It's wierd, sometimes, but when they say UHF is line of sight, they aren't kidding. You literally thread your way through, sometimes.
Whatever works, just don't rule out any location, unless you're right up against something.
Dan

Dan,
I bought a 15-2160 and mounted it under the 4248 and ran a seperate coax into the house (unamplified) into an a/b switch for the sole purpose of getting 13. The signal that shows on the 921 varies from 62-66 but the picture has been good and I haven't had drops. Should I consider amplifying the signal from the 15-2160? And a seperate question, if I opt for the join-tenna 0585-1, can it be mounted inside behind the TV? As you know, I'm reluctant to make changes that might loose the signal for komo that was so hard to get, so I don't want to move the mast in any way and running the two seperate coax's permitted that. The 15-2160 is within reach when I'm standing on the roof so I can make changes to it as needed. The 4248 is too high up to reach.

Originally posted by grovertdog
I'm relocating to Bellingham, west of I-5 and would appreciate any commentary on the chances of receiving any Seattle HD OTA.

Thanks,
GTD
I'm located 10 - 15 Miles north of you - 350' Level
Antenna 30' above average terrain.
2 Channelmaster 4228 - Vertically Stacked
Winegard AP-4700 Preamp & Rotor

Here are the results:
KOMO 100%
KING 100%
KIRO 100%
KCTS 100%
KSTW 100%
KVOS 100%
KCPQ <10% Severe Multipath
KONG <10% Weak Signal - Only comes in during Tropospheric ducting
KTWB 100%
KBCB 100%
KBTC <10% Weak Signal - Only comes in during Tropospheric ducting

Let me know if I can be of any help.

Greg

Wow- that is amazing. You must be nearly 90 miles away from some of those transmitters.

Quarque was good enough to plot my address and he concluded I would need a 1,700' tower for Seattle reception! Perhaps that is because I am essentially at sea level, just blocks from downtown Bellingham?

I will be leaving Florida for B'ham in 3 weeks (ironically leaving my CM4228 behind)- This may be worth revisiting!

Thanks for the comments!
GTD

I am curious, what ATSC tuner you may be using? Also, any word on when Vancouver starts broadcasting HD?

Thanks,
GTD

Originally posted by grovertdog
I am curious, what ATSC tuner you may be using? Also, any word on when Vancouver starts broadcasting HD?

Thanks,
GTD

I'm using a Digitalstream HD1150 and similiar results
with my ATI HDTV Wonder

CIVT(CTV) has been doing some testing and expect them on the air
over the next few weeks.

BCTV (Global)Months away

CBC Months away possibly sooner.

Unfortuneatly the broadcasters here don't communicate very well, I'm lucky to get responses to my EMails at all.

Greg

Originally posted by grovertdog
Wow- that is amazing. You must be nearly 90 miles away from some of those transmitters.

Quarque was good enough to plot my address and he concluded I would need a 1,700' tower for Seattle reception! Perhaps that is because I am essentially at sea level, just blocks from downtown Bellingham?

I will be leaving Florida for B'ham in 3 weeks (ironically leaving my CM4228 behind)- This may be worth revisiting!

Thanks for the comments!
GTD

4DTV-HD is most likely slightly *west* of you, not just due north. That makes ALL the difference. His LOS completely misses the huge hill that you are behind. You may get some reflected signals where you are but I wouldn't *hold my breath* as far as reliable OTA. If you duplicate his setup (very good setup!) you *might* get something.

Originally posted by quarque
4DTV-HD is most likely slightly *west* of you, not just due north. That makes ALL the difference. His LOS completely misses the huge hill that you are behind. You may get some reflected signals where you are but I wouldn't *hold my breath* as far as reliable OTA. If you duplicate his setup (very good setup!) you *might* get something.

Got you... Do you know 4DTV's actual address as it looks to me he is slightly <b><i>east</b></i> of me just based on his city of reference?

Is there an online source with topo data or whatever you are using, or are you using your own maps?

Thanks!
GTD

Originally posted by Chuck Ebby
Dan,
I bought a 15-2160 and mounted it under the 4248 and ran a seperate coax into the house (unamplified) into an a/b switch for the sole purpose of getting 13. The signal that shows on the 921 varies from 62-66 but the picture has been good and I haven't had drops. Should I consider amplifying the signal from the 15-2160? And a seperate question, if I opt for the join-tenna 0585-1, can it be mounted inside behind the TV? As you know, I'm reluctant to make changes that might loose the signal for komo that was so hard to get, so I don't want to move the mast in any way and running the two seperate coax's permitted that. The 15-2160 is within reach when I'm standing on the roof so I can make changes to it as needed. The 4248 is too high up to reach.

Chuck
Sure, you can combine them inside. You should do it after the 7775 power supply, obviously. If 13 comes in that way, fine. If not, then get another 7775 for 13. I can understand the reluctance to fool with the main antenna. You could combine the two through the ch13 combiner, then the preamp, but you may also have small problems. Since you are marginal, at best, just keep them separate.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
4DTV-HD is most likely slightly *west* of you, not just due north. That makes ALL the difference. His LOS completely misses the huge hill that you are behind. You may get some reflected signals where you are but I wouldn't *hold my breath* as far as reliable OTA. If you duplicate his setup (very good setup!) you *might* get something.

Here is my address:
28A Avenue Cross Street 264th Street, Aldergrove, B.C.

Decimal Lat & Long
Lat: 49.03
Long: 122.29

Greg

Originally posted by 4DTV-HD
Here is my address:
28A Avenue Cross Street 264th Street, Aldergrove, B.C.

Decimal Lat & Long
Lat: 49.03
Long: 122.29

Greg

Thanks. If I can trust Mapquest, my decimel coordinates are-

Lat: 48.765
Long: 122.475

Looks like I am a tad west of you. Basicially, if I take Meridian due north to Canada, at some point I would turn right to get to you, wouldn't I?

GTD

Originally posted by grovertdog
Thanks. If I can trust Mapquest, my decimel coordinates are-

Lat: 48.765
Long: 122.475

Looks like I am a tad west of you. Basicially, if I take Meridian due north to Canada, at some point I would turn right to get to you, wouldn't I?

GTD

Meridian becomes 264 Street(Hwy 13) on the Canadian Side
I'm just a couple of hundred feet East - Approx.

Greg

I am thinking of purchasing a OTA HDTV receiver but was wandering if anyone could comment on HD reception in the Fairwood area of Renton (Petrovitsky & SE 184th).

Thanks,

Scott

Originally posted by nethawk4
I am thinking of purchasing a OTA HDTV receiver but was wandering if anyone could comment on HD reception in the Fairwood area of Renton (Petrovitsky & SE 184th).

Thanks,

Scott

You're within a couple of blocks of me and I get KOMO, KING, KONG, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW and KCPQ without any issues using an attic mounted antenna and pre-amp. When when we first moved in a couple of years ago, I was using an indoor antenna which worked pretty well, but I was getting occasional dropouts.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Chuck
Sure, you can combine them inside. You should do it after the 7775 power supply, obviously. If 13 comes in that way, fine. If not, then get another 7775 for 13. I can understand the reluctance to fool with the main antenna. You could combine the two through the ch13 combiner, then the preamp, but you may also have small problems. Since you are marginal, at best, just keep them separate.
Dan

The only place I could find the jointenna was Warrens. They said takes approx 2 weeks for cm to get it to them then whatever time it takes for them to get it to me. So I have a little wait. Something I have noticed since putting the 2160 just under the 4248 is that the 921 is indicating slightly higher numbers for the channels on the 4248. The two antenna's are on completely different cables. Is it just a strange coincidence?

Originally posted by 4DTV-HD
Here is my address:
28A Avenue Cross Street 264th Street, Aldergrove, B.C.

Decimal Lat & Long
Lat: 49.03
Long: 122.29

Greg
My map program only covers US but I can put in lat/lon points in Canada and shoot from there. You are an amazing 96.6 miles from QA hill. AND you are behind the same hill as GTD. Obviously you are getting a strong reflection off something because it sure isn't direct line-of-sight! Of course, having a high-gain stack and amp are what make it all possible. How many antennas did you try before arriving at your present setup?

Originally posted by nethawk4
I am thinking of purchasing a OTA HDTV receiver but was wandering if anyone could comment on HD reception in the Fairwood area of Renton (Petrovitsky & SE 184th).

Thanks,

Scott
You are on a nice 600-foot high spot so you have no hills to contend with - just the usual trees, buildings, reflections etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by 4DTV-HD
Meridian becomes 264 Street(Hwy 13) on the Canadian Side
I'm just a couple of hundred feet East - Approx.

Greg

Greg
That's pretty amazing. I'll bet you're splitting the seam between 2 mountains, Chuckanut on the east side, and Samish on the west side. Your signal path crosses the west end of Lake Samish. Because you're 20 miles away from them, there's just barely enough going around either side to give you a look. And that receiver must be doing a pretty good job, too. I would love to see what it looked like on my analyzer. KCPQ does fall off a little on it's pattern, which might partially explain why it's weak. This their polar plot

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=33578&rotate=0.00&p0=0.733&p10=0.854&p20=0.940&p30=0.987&p40=1.000&p50=0.988&p60=0.963&p70=0.936&p80=0.917&p90=0.905&p100=0.900&p110=0.899&p120=0.900&p130=0.905&p140=0.917&p150=0.936&p160=0.963&p170=0.988&p180=1.000&p190=0.987&p200=0.940&p210=0.854&p220=0.733&p230=0.588&p240=0.437&p250=0.302&p260=0.218&p270=0.207&p280=0.232&p290=0.245&p300=0.232&p310=0.245&p320=0.232&p330=0.302&p340=0.437&p350=0.588&p360=0.733&

You could also adjust the distance between the two 4228's slightly, which might help with KCPQ. Did you combine the two with a splitter or custom baluns?

However, grovertdog, you will be much closer to those mountains, which will put you in their shadow. Never say never, the above is proof, but I would think it will be a lot tougher.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Greg
That's pretty amazing. I'll bet you're splitting the seam between 2 mountains, Chuckanut on the east side, and Samish on the west side. Your signal path crosses the west end of Lake Samish.

Actually his path is a mile east of Lake Samish and goes right through the western shoulder of Stewart Mountain (the high spot) - not the same problem as GTD like I thought earlier. There are a number of mountains that could be giving reflections and at those heights they'd be reliable most of the time. Believe it or not, a stacked 4228 went 102 miles for another AVS'er. But he cheated and put it on a 70-foot tower! Still, it is rather amazing.

EDIT: wait a second here. Those coordinates were way east of Meridian/hwy 539 (???) If I go to a spot north of Lynden then the whole picture changes and Stewart Mountain is not in the way. I need some more accurate coordinates!!!

Originally posted by quarque
Actually his path is a mile east of Lake Samish and goes right through the western shoulder of Stewart Mountain (the high spot) - not the same problem as GTD like I thought earlier. There are a number of mountains that could be giving reflections and at those heights they'd be reliable most of the time. Believe it or not, a stacked 4228 went 102 miles for another AVS'er. But he cheated and put it on a 70-foot tower! Still, it is rather amazing.

EDIT: wait a second here. Those coordinates were way east of Meridian/hwy 539 (???) If I go to a spot north of Lynden then the whole picture changes and Stewart Mountain is not in the way. I need some more accurate coordinates!!!

quarque
That's what I thought, too. I played with a possible scenario of where he was and what it would take to split those mountains. That's the only possible way to explain it and still have him in Aldergrove or near it. Remember, Topo is not that accurate. I have found small differences in the Lat/Long parts with the mapping and what I know to be true. Use these numbers for him, and you'll split the two mountains. 49 2.25" & 122 27.6"
I would also be interested to know what company actually makes those receivers.
All this has got me thinking about playing with PC cards and software again. Maybe they're finally getting some good hardware out there. Might be worth a look for those tough sites.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Greg
That's pretty amazing. I'll bet you're splitting the seam between 2 mountains, Chuckanut on the east side, and Samish on the west side. Your signal path crosses the west end of Lake Samish. Because you're 20 miles away from them, there's just barely enough going around either side to give you a look. And that receiver must be doing a pretty good job, too. I would love to see what it looked like on my analyzer. KCPQ does fall off a little on it's pattern, which might partially explain why it's weak.
You could also adjust the distance between the two 4228's slightly, which might help with KCPQ. Did you combine the two with a splitter or custom baluns?

However, grovertdog, you will be much closer to those mountains, which will put you in their shadow. Never say never, the above is proof, but I would think it will be a lot tougher.
Dan

Hi Dan
I have a spectrum analyzer as well. Most channels are strong and steady.
KCPQ has the strength but severe multipath. I adjusted the spacing of the
4228s with no positive results.
I combined the antennas with a splitter.

Thanks for your valuable input.

Of note, I've tested all over Greater Vancouver.
My best results were in Mission, B.C. - further North & East
Could even receive KCPQ.

My best results were in Downtown Vancouver - 50 Story Level.
All channels received strongly with a Square Shooter.

Greg

Originally posted by quarque
My map program only covers US but I can put in lat/lon points in Canada and shoot from there. You are an amazing 96.6 miles from QA hill. AND you are behind the same hill as GTD. Obviously you are getting a strong reflection off something because it sure isn't direct line-of-sight! Of course, having a high-gain stack and amp are what make it all possible. How many antennas did you try before arriving at your present setup?

Hi Quarque
Thanks for the valuable information.

All of these work:
Winegard Squareshooter
Winegard 9095P
CM 4228

I found the 4228 to get the most gain of the 3.

With a single antenna I would get occasional dropouts. When I stacked 2 the dropouts are now rare.

Greg

4DTV-HD - I don't have the equipment to test signals but I did get better readings on my HD Tivo after I joined my stack by using the crossover wires ( of equal length ) from an old VHF with one balun in the center. My hope was to not lose any db to a splitter.

Hi all - Quarque plotted my location awhile back, but I have still not gotten my HDTV yet (long story). I live on the eastern side of West Seattle (facing Blake and Vashon Islands). He said that my location was 200 feet and I have a 400 foot hill about 2/3 mile away, putting my LOS at 100 feet above my house. Any one else in West Seattle?

I'm not going to put a 100 foot mast on my house, so what would you all suggest as far as getting HD? Will I have to just go with ripoff Comcast HD service? Can I use some type of antenna in my attic with some extra gizmo attached to it to pump up the juice? Please excuse my terminology. I have absolutely no knowledge when it comes to this stuff.

Thanks in advance for your help.

"The Eyes of Nye" premieres tonight from 8-9 pm on KCTS! Someone please let me know if it's in HDTV.

Originally posted by balazer
"The Eyes of Nye" premieres tonight from 8-9 pm on KCTS! Someone please let me know if it's in HDTV.

According to KCTS' site at http://www.kcts.org/tvschedule/dtv.asp it is scheduled to be on KCTS-DT HDTV in high-def.

Originally posted by Superastro
Hi all - Quarque plotted my location awhile back, but I have still not gotten my HDTV yet (long story). I live on the eastern side of West Seattle (facing Blake and Vashon Islands). He said that my location was 200 feet and I have a 400 foot hill about 2/3 mile away, putting my LOS at 100 feet above my house. Any one else in West Seattle?

I'm not going to put a 100 foot mast on my house, so what would you all suggest as far as getting HD? Will I have to just go with ripoff Comcast HD service? Can I use some type of antenna in my attic with some extra gizmo attached to it to pump up the juice? Please excuse my terminology. I have absolutely no knowledge when it comes to this stuff.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Before you give up on OTA you should borrow a receiver and try it. There are reflections all over the place and you might get lucky. I wouldn't bet money on it but you just never know in urban areas what will turn up.

I think I'd call that the "south western" side of West Seattle :D

I've got a Dishnetwork 921 and live in a small "forested" area of N.E. Seattle called Sand Point Country Club. Dan has been working with me for a year or so to get my OTA issues taken care of. Reception has been hit or miss in the past, but the 921's meter is now pegged at "125" points for all of the locals with the exception of KCPQ. One of our guilty pleasures is the "OC", so we'll have to pray to the HDTV gods on Thursdays.

Great job, Dan. This location is even less obtrusive than the first, a pleasant plus for my better half!

Originally posted by balazer
"The Eyes of Nye" premieres tonight from 8-9 pm on KCTS! Someone please let me know if it's in HDTV.


Yes it is in HDTV.

Originally posted by quarque
I think I'd call that the "south western" side of West Seattle :D [/B]

Doh! Not only don't I know anything about HD, I don't know my directions as well. :o You're right, Quarque, Southwestern side of West Seattle.

So you think I should just borrow a receiver, hook up a pair of rabbit ears and test it out? Is there anything I can do to increase the chances of pulling in a signal?

Originally posted by 4DTV-HD
Hi Dan
I have a spectrum analyzer as well. Most channels are strong and steady.
KCPQ has the strength but severe multipath. I adjusted the spacing of the
4228s with no positive results.
I combined the antennas with a splitter.

Thanks for your valuable input.

Of note, I've tested all over Greater Vancouver.
My best results were in Mission, B.C. - further North & East
Could even receive KCPQ.

My best results were in Downtown Vancouver - 50 Story Level.
All channels received strongly with a Square Shooter.

Greg

Greg
Reminds of reception we got when I was in the Air Farce. We would purposely skip signals off the troposphere and bounce signals around the world. By adjusting the angle on the transmitting antenna, we could predict where the points were on land/water so that the carrier bounce was away from major areas, where someone might pick it up, yet signal was excellent from Tokyo to Germany! I have another customer near Lake Marcel, south of Duvall, buried in the trees, but sometimes gets reception by aiming it at a 45 degree angle upward.
Working around the Bay area, it was tough to go much beyond 90 miles. Maybe it's the cleaner air up there in BC ! You must really be in a natural sweet spot.
What meter are you using? I assume you are using the same preamp for all those locations? And using the same receiver as well? I found the Square Shooter to be much weaker than the 4221 or the small Rat Shack 15-2160 in testing within 40 miles of here.
An amazing feat !
Well done.
Dan

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by balazer
"The Eyes of Nye" premieres tonight from 8-9 pm on KCTS! Someone please let me know if it's in HDTV.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yes it is in HDTV.

But the picture quality is horrible! Come on KCTS, stop multicasting!

KCTS multicasts? I thought they dropped the multicast in the evenings when they transmit HD.

From their website:

We're more than just KCTS Channel 9. We also broadcast with KYVE Yakima, and on these digital and cable channels. KCTS HD, our high-definition broadcast, airs from 5:00 p.m.-2:00 a.m. KCTS DT, our digital simulcast, airs 8:00-2:00 a.m.

(KCTS HD 5 til 2, KCTS DT also still on 5 til 2). Channels 108 and 109 on Comcast.

In my opinion, they have the worst picture quality of any of the Seattle HDTV stations.

The KCTS web site is completely full of contradictory information about what they broadcast when. I won't enumerate the contradictions, but I've found at least 6 already.

So, I gather that 5 pm - 2 am are the HD hours, and KCTS-DT has two sub-channels during those hours: the HD program, and the KCTS-TV simulcast?

Such a shame that they couldn't give us at least a FEW hours of non-simulcast, or at least scale back the bit rate on the simulcast. It's particularly shameful that the picture should suffer on the HD program during hours when the simulcast is the exact same program! (like how it was tonight for Eyes of Nye)

I will be sending them some kindly worded suggestions. KCTS was supposed to be an HDTV leader!

I agree.

I also find it pathetic that they keep running the same programs over and over again. How many times do we have to see 'Out of the Ashes: Recovering the Lost Library of Herculaneum', and 'Over Alaska' and 'Video Game Revolution' among many others.

There was a new American Experience this week and a new Frontline that they could have shown.

Those might not have been produced in HDTV but a lot of the stuff they keep rerunning on the HDTV channel isn't either.

I'm certainly going to have to rethink my pledge.

As an aside, the PBS station here in Rochester, NY has 4 sub-channels all the time - 1 HD and 3 SD. All four look terrible.

The upshot is that on Time Warner Cable, the 4 sub-channels are sent with double the bit rate of the over-the-air digital transmission - at the full bit rate as sent by PBS.

It would be nice if KCTS could do something like that. They might also eliminate the KCTS-TV digital simulcast on cable, since the cable systems are probably already sending KCTS-TV in analog.

There are lots of other solutions, too, including eliminating the digital simulcast when the same program is also being shown in HD; reducing the digital simulcast bit rate during certain hours; sending the SD channel at less than 720 x 480, e.g. 480 x 480. That last trick is something that all smart bandwidth-constrained multichannel providers do.

720 x 480 isn't an ATSC mode anyway, so why not just pick a different non-ATSC mode, like 480 x 480?

Is what you're seeing with KCTS only an OTA phenomena? On Comcast QAM 9.1, the KCTS-DTV is *much* better than the SD Analog channel 9, and QAM 9.5 (KCTS-TV HD) looks fine to me (but I didn't watch Bill Nye last night).

The HDTV channel may look ok to some, but when you are watching it on a 73" set the macroblocking is very apparent. More so than on any other Seattle channel. Most channels it is very rare and only during the scenes that have lots of motion. On KCST it happens all the time, even just during scene changes. Very annoying.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Greg
Reminds of reception we got when I was in the Air Farce. We would purposely skip signals off the troposphere and bounce signals around the world. By adjusting the angle on the transmitting antenna, we could predict where the points were on land/water so that the carrier bounce was away from major areas, where someone might pick it up, yet signal was excellent from Tokyo to Germany! I have another customer near Lake Marcel, south of Duvall, buried in the trees, but sometimes gets reception by aiming it at a 45 degree angle upward.
Working around the Bay area, it was tough to go much beyond 90 miles. Maybe it's the cleaner air up there in BC ! You must really be in a natural sweet spot.
What meter are you using? I assume you are using the same preamp for all those locations? And using the same receiver as well? I found the Square Shooter to be much weaker than the 4221 or the small Rat Shack 15-2160 in testing within 40 miles of here.
An amazing feat !
Well done.
Dan

Hi Dan
I have two spectrum analyzers:
BK Precision 2610
Avcom PSA37D (I'm in the satellite industry)

I'm using the same preamp in this configuration.

The squareshooter will be used for local reception.

I got a response from a KCTS station engineer saying that "Eyes of Nye" was standard definiton wide-screen, and that the upconversion to HD caused the compression artifacts.

The engineer said that they have plenty of bandwidth to make pristine pictures, when the programs are provided to KCTS that way.

Originally posted by balazer
I got a response from a KCTS station engineer saying that "Eyes of Nye" was standard definiton wide-screen, and that the upconversion to HD caused the compression artifacts.

The engineer said that they have plenty of bandwidth to make pristine pictures, when the programs are provided to KCTS that way.

Does anyone know if any of the rebroadcasts are scheduled HD?

As far as I can tell, every showing on KCTS-HD was scheduled to be standard definition wide-screen from the start.

Originally posted by balazer
As far as I can tell, every showing on KCTS-HD was scheduled to be standard definition wide-screen from the start.

I agree. I could find no mention of HD in any of the repetetive schedules/listings that I looked through on the KCTS web site.

Did anyone watch or record the SD DTV version on channel 9-1? Less bandwidth, but no upconversion artifacts. I am in Denver this week, so I have not watched my recording of the OTA HD (channel 9-5) version yet.

Maybe next week I will record both to compare.

Location is the NW corner of N 80th and Greenwood Ave N, third floor condo with E/SE exposure & a narrow window of SW exposure.

I posted up here a month or two ago prior to actually having equipment, and now that I have it and have messed around, I have some more questions (and probably have to buy some more equipment :) )

I am currently receiving OTA HD broadcasts via my ATI HD Wonder card in my Windows MCE computer. The ATI card comes with an indoor antenna which I understand is similar to the Zenith Silver Sensor. After a few hours of tweaking, I had the antenna dialed in so that I could receive the local channels including KCPQ.

I've had the card for about 5 weeks now, and the first 4 weeks I was receiving KCPQ reasonably well. During last week's episode of '24' and during subsequent viewings of other KCPQ shows, the reception is very spotty - I get hiccups in the show. No changes were made to the antenna location/blinds/screens/construction in the area or anything, but it has been more rainy lately. Other channels continue to be ok, though I don't watch much television on the regular local OTA channels - usually watch analog cable. Has anyone else noticed a drop in signal strength from KCPQ lately?

I primarily went the HD route for KCPQ programming (ok, so FOX sucks but hey, its a guilty pleasure), and this is frustrating.

So, are there any other recommended indoor antennas I could try? Rabbit ears? Maybe try a 'real' Zenith Silver Sensor? Something available easily local with a reasonable return policy would be good. Is Radio Shack pretty much it in terms of local vendors for these kinda things?

I can't/won't/don't want to use an external antenna due to condo issues (I know it's illegal to restrict, I just don't want to do it - this isn't THAT important to me) That being said, I might consider a small one that's not too ugly to mount on my balcony rail. Any possible suggestions or places I could go look at a selection?

Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
(I did search through this massive thread for indoor antenna, seems like at least one recommendation for a particular Radio Shack antenna - though I'll have to look through the search results again to get a model number...)

You should seriously consider a Channel Master 4221. Before putting it up above our chimney I used it on a mast secured to a chair in our sunroom and the reception was very good. I had tried several other types of UHF antennas and nothing came close to the CM4221. I got it at Pringle Electronics in Everett for less than $40. That was several years ago but I'm sure they still have them.

All the best,

Tim

Originally posted by Steveo369

I've had the card for about 5 weeks now, and the first 4 weeks I was receiving KCPQ reasonably well. During last week's episode of '24' and during subsequent viewings of other KCPQ shows, the reception is very spotty - I get hiccups in the show.

Is it lots of hiccups or just one or 2? I ask because the last 2 weeks during 24 I have seen a couple of instances of this myself on each episode. It wasn't enough to really disrupt the show, but it did include minor audio dropouts. Prior to this the weeks before were fine. Haven't noticed issues with any other shows, but the only other stuff I watch regularly is Sunday nights (Simpsons, Arrested Development).

Originally posted by Steveo369
Location is the NW corner of N 80th and Greenwood Ave N, third floor condo with E/SE exposure & a narrow window of SW exposure.

I posted up here a month or two ago prior to actually having equipment, and now that I have it and have messed around, I have some more questions (and probably have to buy some more equipment :) )

I am currently receiving OTA HD broadcasts via my ATI HD Wonder card in my Windows MCE computer. The ATI card comes with an indoor antenna which I understand is similar to the Zenith Silver Sensor. After a few hours of tweaking, I had the antenna dialed in so that I could receive the local channels including KCPQ.

I've had the card for about 5 weeks now, and the first 4 weeks I was receiving KCPQ reasonably well. During last week's episode of '24' and during subsequent viewings of other KCPQ shows, the reception is very spotty - I get hiccups in the show. No changes were made to the antenna location/blinds/screens/construction in the area or anything, but it has been more rainy lately. Other channels continue to be ok, though I don't watch much television on the regular local OTA channels - usually watch analog cable. Has anyone else noticed a drop in signal strength from KCPQ lately?

I primarily went the HD route for KCPQ programming (ok, so FOX sucks but hey, its a guilty pleasure), and this is frustrating.

So, are there any other recommended indoor antennas I could try? Rabbit ears? Maybe try a 'real' Zenith Silver Sensor? Something available easily local with a reasonable return policy would be good. Is Radio Shack pretty much it in terms of local vendors for these kinda things?

I can't/won't/don't want to use an external antenna due to condo issues (I know it's illegal to restrict, I just don't want to do it - this isn't THAT important to me) That being said, I might consider a small one that's not too ugly to mount on my balcony rail. Any possible suggestions or places I could go look at a selection?

Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
(I did search through this massive thread for indoor antenna, seems like at least one recommendation for a particular Radio Shack antenna - though I'll have to look through the search results again to get a model number...)

Steveo369
You could hang a 4221 off the side of the balcony railing. It has a wide reception pattern and could easily get both directions. The RatShack 15-2160, the baby yagi, would work, too, but it's a little more directional, and may not work in one position only.
Indoor reception is very spotty. Wet building sides can be enough to upset a very marginal signal. The fact it was working "perfectly" just means there was enough there to lock on to, but it really could have been very ugly and you wouldn't have known it. HD is either perfect and there, or, when on the very edge, has audio hiccups and freezes or tiles. Small antennas can work under ideal conditions, obviously, but getting to ideal can be a challenge. What works in one indoor location may not work at all elsewhere. You're fortunate in that your tuner card is very good, and making up for a marginal signal. Most regular STB's don't work that well indoors. Trial and error time. The 15-2160 can be returned if it doesn't work. You could take your little antenna outside to see what happens. It may work fine. Just seal up any connections to make it weather proof. it could last for years that way.
Dan

Originally posted by 4DTV-HD
Hi Dan
I have two spectrum analyzers:
BK Precision 2610
Avcom PSA37D (I'm in the satellite industry)

I'm using the same preamp in this configuration.

The squareshooter will be used for local reception.

Greg
Thanks for the info.
Avcom looks interesting, how wide can you go beyond the center freq?
Wasn't able to find anything on the B&K 2610, was that an old one?
Dan

Originally posted by tluxon
You should seriously consider a Channel Master 4221.


I'll think about it, but as far as I'm concerned, that is much too large (36"hx20"w). My balcony is highly visible, I don't want an eyesore, nor do I have room in a one bedroom condo for something that big. :(

Originally posted by robglasser
Is it lots of hiccups or just one or 2? I ask because the last 2 weeks during 24 I have seen a couple of instances of this myself on each episode. It wasn't enough to really disrupt the show, but it did include minor audio dropouts.

The hiccups I mention are frequent, and I'm noticing them on all programming for KCPQ now. I tweaked the antenna last night, and was able to get it a little better, but nothing consistent. What I find difficult is trying to set the darn thing somewhere. Reception is spotty, and varies widely, even within the ~8' radius I have available for location in the corner of my living room near the windows. Sometimes the signal comes in strong high, other times low.

Bah. I'm too used to having cable and a "clear" signal all the time. Unfortunately, OTA is the only way to get HDTV through the Windows MCE interface at this time, and I don't really want to give Comcast any more money unless it interfaces with my htpc. :confused:

Originally posted by DanKurts
Greg
Thanks for the info.
Avcom looks interesting, how wide can you go beyond the center freq?
Wasn't able to find anything on the B&K 2610, was that an old one?
Dan

The Avcom is a good analyzer but I'm reluctant to take it outside
if it's raining. I can tune to a resolution of 300 KHz but usually display the full 6 Mhz. On occasion I also center in between two adjacent channels such as KVOS/KSTW and KOMO/KIRO.

Yes the BK Precision is dated but I don't mind taking it outside as much.

Greg

I just saw a clip of "Eyes of Nye" from KCTS-HD. It was definitely an SD wide-screen upconvert.

Hello all,

I've lived in Miami for about 15 years, and have been lucky enough to get excellent reception for all of the network affiliates in HD here, plus all of the indys.

I just decided to spend the next year in Seattle (probably Bellevue or Redmond area). I want to make sure that I give myself the best chance at good reception for whatever stations are available. I don't know enough about the area to know whether I should expect to use cable, ota, and/or D*.

Can you recommend a place to live where (probably starting with most important, and becoming just "very" important)

1) It is kid-friendly
2) It has good HDTV availability
3) It is in an upscale neighborhood

Thanks in advance!

Wow, Seattle to Miami. Talk about a change!

Both Redmond and Bellevue are very nice cities with a lot of great neighborhoods. Both are serviced by excellent school districts as well. They basically run together, the east side of Bellevue runs into the west side of Redmond.

Bellevue is a bigger city and much of the housing is older, although there are some neighborhoods where just about any house that goes on the market is knocked down and replaced. Redmond is quite a bit newer and there has been a significant amount of housing and retail development in the last 10-15 years as Microsoft has grown.

Depending on how upscale you are seeking, you may also want to look into some of the small cities to the north and west of Bellevue such as Clyde Hill and Medina.

As for OTA HD, this area is very touch and go because of all the hills. Most of the towers are due west of Bellevue and Redmond. We are blessed with a couple of posters on this thread who can give you a pretty solid idea of reception possibilities based on address. Thus, once you identify neighborhoods, you can post the cross streets. Comcast here is also pretty good. Last I checked, they offered all the major broadcast networks plus ESPN-HD, Showtime, HBO, InHD and probably some others I'm forgetting.

One thing to keep in mind as you look into this area is that our traffic is among the worst in the nation. This is particularly true on 405 into Bellevue in the morning and out in the afternoon along with east-west highways (90 and 520) into Seattle. I believe that 90 is usually better than 520 though, so if you are commuting to Seattle from the eastside, being near 90 might be better.

I hope this helps.

Andy

Originally posted by aviators99
Hello all,

[snip]

Can you recommend a place to live where (probably starting with most important, and becoming just "very" important)

1) It is kid-friendly
2) It has good HDTV availability
3) It is in an upscale neighborhood

Thanks in advance!

I live in Bellevue, so I'm a little biased... :D

The Seattle Times has put out an annual school guide, http://schoolguide.seattletimes.nwsource.com/?vortex/index, that may help you to look for schools with high test scores, etc. We live in South Bellevue, and are working our way through Eastgate/Tyee/Newport High, and have been quite pleased with the education and the level of parent participation and involvement.

For OTA reception, you'll need, generally, a good line of sight to Seattle's Queen Anne hill. Other than the Bellevue/Medina waterfront houses (can't get much more upscale than that!), you can find areas with good LoS around Somerset, Westwood, Eaglesmere, Horizon Crest and the Summit (these are all neighborhood names; your realtor will be able to point you towards these areas). The drawback with good LoS is that the hills will be steep, and in some winters, you may find yourself snow/ice-bound. With good LoS, you'll also get nice views -- and end up paying for it with high real estate prices.

In general, I've been happy with Comcast, which serves the vast majority of Bellevue. While some of the analog SD channels are fuzzy, I still get some HD/DTV channels on limited basic cable ($12+/month). So if you're not as stingy as we are, and subscribe to the higher-priced packages, I'm sure you'll be happy.

Hope you enjoy the area. Keep in mind you may stay longer than a year!

I have a Winegard 1000 and want to use it to grab some kind of TV signals all the way out in Darrington. Would you recommend I get some kind of preamp to boost signal? I have a set-top with amp today which almost gets me a picture. Im hoping this winegard unit will get me more. But should I be boosting? and what brand of preamp? where to buy?

Originally posted by markslc1
I have a Winegard 1000 and want to use it to grab some kind of TV signals all the way out in Darrington. Would you recommend I get some kind of preamp to boost signal? I have a set-top with amp today which almost gets me a picture. Im hoping this winegard unit will get me more. But should I be boosting? and what brand of preamp? where to buy?

That's not much antenna for someone way out in Darrington, even though you have elevation on your side. A much better antenna would something like the ChannelMaster 4228. I think that would be a better investment than a preamp for your Winegard, which probably won't help you much.

What is the topographic program used to located obstacles? If possible, can you give me the URL?

Also, does anyone have any feedback on installations on Union Hill (East of Redmond). The house has trees surrounding it although the depth of tree line in not that deep, and not very dense. Trees are mostly evergreen. The towers aren't that far away (with the exception of 13-) so the signal should be pretty strong. Any thoughts?

As a last ditch effort, I hate to even mention this but, is there any degree of success in mounting a UHF antenna in a tree top? I know the tree moves but is the downside of the movement more or less damaging to the signal than going through the trees?

Originally posted by aviators99
Hello all,

I've lived in Miami for about 15 years, and have been lucky enough to get excellent reception for all of the network affiliates in HD here, plus all of the indys.

I just decided to spend the next year in Seattle (probably Bellevue or Redmond area). I want to make sure that I give myself the best chance at good reception for whatever stations are available. I don't know enough about the area to know whether I should expect to use cable, ota, and/or D*.

Can you recommend a place to live where (probably starting with most important, and becoming just "very" important)

1) It is kid-friendly
2) It has good HDTV availability
3) It is in an upscale neighborhood

Thanks in advance!
Let me be the first to say "welcome to Seattle, get coffee and rain gear."
There are lots of neighborhoods within 15 miles of downtown Seattle that would fit your needs. Housing in some areas is outrageously priced. I would suggest a good real-estate agent first off (PM me for an excellent one I've known for 20 years). As for HD you will want something on a hill, not in a valley (duh). If you want me to check out locations for you topographically I can do that based on address, intersection or lat/lon. We have lots of trees so that is always a potential hazard for HD here.

Originally posted by thebigmurph
What is the topographic program used to located obstacles? If possible, can you give me the URL?

Also, does anyone have any feedback on installations on Union Hill (East of Redmond). The house has trees surrounding it although the depth of tree line in not that deep, and not very dense. Trees are mostly evergreen. The towers aren't that far away (with the exception of 13-) so the signal should be pretty strong. Any thoughts?

As a last ditch effort, I hate to even mention this but, is there any degree of success in mounting a UHF antenna in a tree top? I know the tree moves but is the downside of the movement more or less damaging to the signal than going through the trees?
I don't know of any online site that can do what my Delorme Topo USA program does on my PC. I can take a "slice" through the terrain between any two points and look at the profile to see what is in the way. If you care to post your nearest intersection I will do a plot for you.

Yes, people have put antennas in trees - usually the bowtie designs since they have a vertical profile, as opposed to a yagi's horizontal profile. The swaying does not seem to make much difference according to those who have done this. Trees are also cheaper than towers. :)

Originally posted by aviators99
Hello all,

I've lived in Miami for about 15 years, and have been lucky enough to get excellent reception for all of the network affiliates in HD here, plus all of the indys.

I just decided to spend the next year in Seattle (probably Bellevue or Redmond area). I want to make sure that I give myself the best chance at good reception for whatever stations are available. I don't know enough about the area to know whether I should expect to use cable, ota, and/or D*.

Can you recommend a place to live where (probably starting with most important, and becoming just "very" important)

1) It is kid-friendly
2) It has good HDTV availability
3) It is in an upscale neighborhood

Thanks in advance!

My vote would be the Laurelhurst/Windermere area of Seattle. There's a good sense of community in those areas. The place I live, Sand Point Country Club is extraordinarily kid friendly and has become upscale in recent years (lots of nicely done remodels and a number of Microsofties). HD reception is a bit of a crap shoot, but thanks to advice from Quarque an some good work from Dan Kurtz, we're in good shape. For these areas, your looking at properties in the $750K - $1MM+

PM me if you need the name of a highly qualified real estate agent to work with.

Happy hunting! John

Originally posted by thebigmurph
What is the topographic program used to located obstacles? If possible, can you give me the URL?

Also, does anyone have any feedback on installations on Union Hill (East of Redmond). The house has trees surrounding it although the depth of tree line in not that deep, and not very dense. Trees are mostly evergreen. The towers aren't that far away (with the exception of 13-) so the signal should be pretty strong. Any thoughts?

As a last ditch effort, I hate to even mention this but, is there any degree of success in mounting a UHF antenna in a tree top? I know the tree moves but is the downside of the movement more or less damaging to the signal than going through the trees?

thebigmurph
I also use the Topo5 program. url is
http://www.delorme.com/topousa/default.asp
It gives you a good idea of what's in the way, terrain-wise, but doesn't show any trees or buildings. You need to compensate for that, and for the actual height of the antennas on the towers. Very fun program. One DVD does the entire US !
As for reception in Union Hill, it can be from great to zero. The trees may not look like much, but they can really chop up a signal. Send an address and quarque or myself can run a check for you. I have done many up there, and can compare results to your place, too.
Mounting an antenna in a tree is okay, but you will need a preamp. UHF losses are steep, and any tree out there is going to be 50ft or more, plus the distance to the house and receiver. You want to clear any branches below or above the antenna that may sway into the reception path. The movement of an evergreen tree usually doesn't bother the reception, but decidous trees have much more movement, and quicker, which can cause problems. Last, be careful !! When I was younger, and full of vinegar, I did a few. A few close calls made me realize tree climbers earn their pay. Last one I did was about 75-80ft in the Duvall area. Paid a tree guy to mount and aim it, worth every penny.
Dan

Litz, I happen to live in mill creek by day. Any chance I could come by and take a look at your setup? Recommended place to get this 4428 antenna locally or on internet.

Mark
jonessix@comcast.net

Originally posted by DanKurts
thebigmurph
I also use the Topo5 program. url is

It gives you a good idea of what's in the way, terrain-wise, but doesn't show any trees or buildings. You need to compensate for that, and for the actual height of the antennas on the towers. Very fun program. One DVD does the entire US !
As for reception in Union Hill, it can be from great to zero. The trees may not look like much, but they can really chop up a signal. Send an address and quarque or myself can run a check for you. I have done many up there, and can compare results to your place, too.
Mounting an antenna in a tree is okay, but you will need a preamp. UHF losses are steep, and any tree out there is going to be 50ft or more, plus the distance to the house and receiver. You want to clear any branches below or above the antenna that may sway into the reception path. The movement of an evergreen tree usually doesn't bother the reception, but decidous trees have much more movement, and quicker, which can cause problems. Last, be careful !! When I was younger, and full of vinegar, I did a few. A few close calls made me realize tree climbers earn their pay. Last one I did was about 75-80ft in the Duvall area. Paid a tree guy to mount and aim it, worth every penny.
Dan

Nearest Intersecetion is 85th and 208th, but the elevation is about 100 to 150 less than the intersection.

I figured I would use an 8 bay bow tie with a pre-amp. Then I've got a lot of loss to compensate for as well. From the top of the tree it will be about 80 ft (+ or -), then there's the distance to the house which is another 185 ft (which is really non negotiable). Right there that's 20db+ of loss before distribution. Luckily I've got power that's near the tree where I would mount the antenna, which is where I would put the power for the preamp. Then I figure I would have to use another low noise amp to send the signal to the house, where I will have to amp it again before distribution.

A couple of other questions for you.

I've been using a Winegard pre-amp, but I haven't been very happy with the performance as the model I am using doesn't have adjustable output. What are you using?

Any idea on the chances of getting Fox out there?

Originally posted by markslc1
Litz, I happen to live in mill creek by day. Any chance I could come by and take a look at your setup? Recommended place to get this 4428 antenna locally or on internet.

Mark
jonessix@comcast.net

Fry's carries the 4228 in stock, and at a reasonable price. I live up the hill from Mill Creek though and had better reception with a 4221 than a 4228. Smaller, $20.00 cheaper (after shipping), and works better. Got mine from Solid Signal, an AVSForum sponsor, great service, fast delivery. I think I had it on my doorstep 2 days after ordering.

Originally posted by thebigmurph
Nearest Intersecetion is 85th and 208th, but the elevation is about 100 to 150 less than the intersection.

I figured I would use an 8 bay bow tie with a pre-amp. Then I've got a lot of loss to compensate for as well. From the top of the tree it will be about 80 ft (+ or -), then there's the distance to the house which is another 185 ft (which is really non negotiable). Right there that's 20db+ of loss before distribution. Luckily I've got power that's near the tree where I would mount the antenna, which is where I would put the power for the preamp. Then I figure I would have to use another low noise amp to send the signal to the house, where I will have to amp it again before distribution.

A couple of other questions for you.

I've been using a Winegard pre-amp, but I haven't been very happy with the performance as the model I am using doesn't have adjustable output. What are you using?

Any idea on the chances of getting Fox out there?

bigmurph
Ch13 looks fine. I assume you're at the west end of 85th. The other channels are a little behind Rose Hill, but it might be far enough away that it will be okay. I wouldn't go to all the trouble of a tree. It's very likely that you could get reception from your roof. You might have to find the sweet spot through the trees, but it's very possible. If I were doing it, the 4248 is my first choice. You probably won't need a preamp.
Dan

Rob,

Does the CM 4221 need or have a pre-amp? Just curious. Remember I'm trying to just get VHF standard stations all the way out in Darrington with this. But may also consider someting like this at the mill creek place as well.

mark

Originally posted by markslc1
Rob,

Does the CM 4221 need or have a pre-amp? Just curious. Remember I'm trying to just get VHF standard stations all the way out in Darrington with this. But may also consider someting like this at the mill creek place as well.

mark

Oh, I misread your post. Was thinking that you were trying to get reception in Mill Creek, not Darrington. Maybe you would want a 4228 out there? As far as preamp for either you can buy them. I'm not using one. Also, these are UHF antennas, not VHF. You'd need to buy a different antenna if you are looking for VHF reception.

I'm outta town for awhile, was wondering how KOMO has been doing with primetime shows?

Originally posted by robglasser
Fry's carries the 4228 in stock, and at a reasonable price. I live up the hill from Mill Creek though and had better reception with a 4221 than a 4228. Smaller, $20.00 cheaper (after shipping), and works better. Got mine from Solid Signal, an AVSForum sponsor, great service, fast delivery. I think I had it on my doorstep 2 days after ordering.

I live just a few blocks from robglasser and wasn't so lucky with the 4221. I've tried the 15-2160 (limited success) 4221 (limited success)and think I finally have a winning combo with a 4248 (with 7775 amp I get all but kcpq) and a 4228 (also with 7775 amp and split off for kcpq only-jointenna is on order). Good luck and keep at it, you'll get there if you just keep trying. It might drive you a little crazy getting it, but the OTA picture is really worth the effort.

Can you tell me if there is any hope for
132nd and 132nd in Kirkland 98034?

Can you also let me know if there is any the availablity from:
7244 NE 121st PL, Kirkland, WA 98034?
Thanks

Originally posted by bycgan
Can you also let me know if there is any the availablity from:
7244 NE 121st PL, Kirkland, WA 98034?
Thanks

bycgan
Both sites should be fine. At 132 & 132, you may have some trees to deal with nearby, which I can't see. If you're not too buried, should be okay.
One of the most perfect reception sites I ever saw, signal wise on my analyzer, was at 133rd and NE 135th.
Dan

well I'm on 127th and 135th so things should work.

:)

Originally posted by DrCrawn
I'm outta town for awhile, was wondering how KOMO has been doing with primetime shows?
The little bit I've seen looked fine. On a sadder note, MNF is no longer going to be on ABC. It will be on ESPN. And NBC is going to have the Sunday night games. Now I will seriously have to consider something other than OTA for Monday Nights! Baaaaahhhhh!!!

Edit: they neglected to mention in the broadcast that this all happens in 2006 - so there is lots of time to ponder the options.

Originally posted by quarque
The little bit I've seen looked fine. On a sadder note, MNF is no longer going to be on ABC. It will be on ESPN. And NBC is going to have the Sunday night games. Now I will seriously have to consider something other than OTA for Monday Nights! Baaaaahhhhh!!!

Edit: they neglected to mention in the broadcast that this all happens in 2006 - so there is lots of time to ponder the options.

Quarque,
If you need to go another direction with MNF I would recommend D*. I have the high def set up and ESPN's Sunday night football production is stellar. I am unhappy though about NBC doing the Sunday night games:(
I do not get ABC OTA down here in the Yelm area yet (still a work in progress) I refuse to go back to the cable guys for numerous reasons so its get the OTA to work or wait until D* puts us on their "A" list for HD locals.
Seems there is always something to fiddle with, but it keeps me out of trouble I guess.:D

Originally posted by quarque
The little bit I've seen looked fine. On a sadder note, MNF is no longer going to be on ABC. It will be on ESPN. And NBC is going to have the Sunday night games. Now I will seriously have to consider something other than OTA for Monday Nights! Baaaaahhhhh!!!

Edit: they neglected to mention in the broadcast that this all happens in 2006 - so there is lots of time to ponder the options.


Muchos gracias! I too am OTA only, so MNF will be watched somewhere else in SD unfortunately. None of my buddies have HD, I'm the only one:( Sunday, on the other hand, will be jam packed with HD football in '06.
But since I can only get MDM cable, and they will NEVER offer HD, I'm shat outta luck. I wish Millennium would just go away and Comcast would buy them out and offer us real programming.

Originally posted by DrCrawn
But since I can only get MDM cable, and they will NEVER offer HD, I'm shat outta luck. I wish Millennium would just go away and Comcast would buy them out and offer us real programming.

I'm fairly certain MDM offers HD on at least part of Capitol Hill.

Originally posted by radtek
Quarque,
If you need to go another direction with MNF I would recommend D*. I have the high def set up and ESPN's Sunday night football production is stellar. I am unhappy though about NBC doing the Sunday night games:(
I do not get ABC OTA down here in the Yelm area yet (still a work in progress) I refuse to go back to the cable guys for numerous reasons so its get the OTA to work or wait until D* puts us on their "A" list for HD locals.
Seems there is always something to fiddle with, but it keeps me out of trouble I guess.:D
I've looked at D* in the past, along with the others. Voom is out of the question due to trees. D* is possible but I only have about a 30 degree window through the trees in my area. I used an online site that tells you how to locate satellites using the sun or moon. I have a few degrees either side of 101 to 119 so it is *possible* unless they start using birds way east or west for HD. Anyone know what is in the works?

Originally posted by quarque
I've looked at D* in the past, along with the others. Voom is out of the question due to trees. D* is possible but I only have about a 30 degree window through the trees in my area. I used an online site that tells you how to locate satellites using the sun or moon. I have a few degrees either side of 101 to 119 so it is *possible* unless they start using birds way east or west for HD. Anyone know what is in the works?

Actually the planned new satellites will only be spread at 99, 101, and 103-degrees -- a much narrower than today. That should be good news for folks like us with lots of trees. Of course, we don't really know what will be broadcast from which satellites when the new birds are active later this year.

The two new birds when fully up will provide more than 1000 locals in HD. The top 10 markets are supposed to be up by summer. Seattle is #10 but was dropped for #11 Tampa Bay. Speculation was that it was because of the problems between KIRO and Comcast. Now that that is settled Seattle should be in the next bunch scheduled for fall. These will use MPEG4 and so I will have to wait for D to swap out my HDTIVO but I think it is the only way I will get KIRO and I really want my CSI and Cold Case in HD.

Originally posted by forum junkie
The two new birds when fully up will provide more than 1000 locals in HD. The top 10 markets are supposed to be up by summer. Seattle is #10 but was dropped for #11 Tampa Bay. Speculation was that it was because of the problems between KIRO and Comcast. Now that that is settled Seattle should be in the next bunch scheduled for fall. These will use MPEG4 and so I will have to wait for D to swap out my HDTIVO but I think it is the only way I will get KIRO and I really want my CSI and Cold Case in HD.

forum junkie,
Is that sure thing about D* swapping out the HDTIVO? Now that I am throughly hooked on the tivo thing especially my HR10-250 that would really set right with me. $1000 is a lot of jack to put out for only 1 years use of it.

Hows the recept over your way? I'm planning on adding another antenna to my set up a Yagi to compliment the Bow Tie ...then maybe I can get ABC, CBS to lock in. I have been holding back though on word from D* and whether we made the top 10.

The "top ten" is actually the top twelve, Seattle being number 12. DirecTV apparently opted to exclude Seattle and include Tampa/St. Pete. (#13) for reasons unknown.

Nothing is for sure on a DirecTV swapout of equipment, but examples of past practice and recent statements from DirecTV lead most of us to believe that we will be kept whole, at little or no cost to us--perhaps just a new 1-year subscription comittment.

This is important to me because I have accumulated 1 HD TiVo, 2 HD STBs, 2 SD TiVo's and 1 SD STB. I expect them to make good on all of my actively-subscribed HD equipment. The SD stuff will not be changing in the foreseeable future, since they will only be changing HD channels to MPEG-4.

Time will tell.

Yes, that's about what is being said. D has always been good about swapping out and although they haven't given specifics they have said they will offer something. I love my TIVO and would hate to give it up for anything less but being here on the fringe I have mixed feelings. I'm pretty sure my TIVO is 3rd generation 8VSB and the 4th is supposed to be a lot better. Home Theater Mag has tested the 5th generation which is supposed to make it to the market by winter and raves about it. They say it handles mutipath, weaker signals and all without problem.

Everyone alseep in Seattle this weekend? This thread is very quiet.

I am wondering if other folks are suffering through major audio level discrepancies on KING-DT when they switch between NBC network feeds and their locally-originated programs and commercials inserted within a network program. For me this is most objectionable during Jay Leno, when I have the volume low (with others in the house sleeping) and then a local commercial comes on VERY LOUD and I have to quickly reduce the volume a lot.

I don't notice drastic changes with the other local stations, but the audio variations on KING-DT need some work IMHO.

Global's finally been issued a license to bring CHAN-DT on-air in Vancouver:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Decisions/2005/db2005-173.htm

At 4,300W on channel 22, though, I doubt that anyone in Washington south of Whatcom County will likely be able to see it.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Everyone alseep in Seattle this weekend? This thread is very quiet.

I am wondering if other folks are suffering through major audio level discrepancies on KING-DT when they switch between NBC network feeds and their locally-originated programs and commercials inserted within a network program. For me this is most objectionable during Jay Leno, when I have the volume low (with others in the house sleeping) and then a local commercial comes on VERY LOUD and I have to quickly reduce the volume a lot.

I don't notice drastic changes with the other local stations, but the audio variations on KING-DT need some work IMHO.

Yes it drives me nuts as well. KING seems to be worse than others but they all appears to have it to some extent.

Are other folks still have problems with KOMO-DT's prime time shows? It seemed like the brief video/audio freezes had gotten better for the past few weeks, but now I'm noticing them again. Usually only once or twice in an hour-long show, like Grey's Anatomy, Desperate Housewives, or Lost.

Yes, I still see the problem, though it is much improved.

Freezes? Yes, lots of freezes across all channels this afternoon 4-6 pm. In general, in the one week since I have the DTV tuner, my experience has been: (Indoor antenna, Shoreline district)

Ch 4-1 Excellent
Ch 5-1 Good to excellent.
Ch 7-1 Good to excellent.
Ch 9-1 ... 9-5 Good to excellent but requires antenna switching.
Ch 11-1 Good most of the time.
Ch 13-1 Good to excellent with antenna switching.
Ch 22-1 Excellent.
Ch 28-1 ... -5 Good but requires antenna position close to the ceiling.
Ch 33-1 Comes in occassionally.

I experimented with placing the Terk HDTVi antenna in the attic but it did not help much -- well my 100 foot RG6Q could be a factor. Perhaps the loss is 4-5 dB.

Originally posted by swwg
Freezes? Yes, lots of freezes across all channels this afternoon 4-6 pm. In general, in the one week since I have the DTV tuner, my experience has been: (Indoor antenna, Shoreline district)

This seems more like a reception issue. The freezes being discussed were ones that were related to KOMO, and were being transmitted, so even the best/largest antenna would not solve the problem.

Originally posted by horseflesh
Yes, I still see the problem, though it is much improved.

Had a couple audio dropouts during Alias light night, but no video pixelization. Better than it's been the past but still not quite perfect. This show has been like this for a while now. Even had a couple episodes without any issues. With all the re-runs on for the last couple months it's the only show I've been watching regularly on KOMO.

Hi everyone!

I'm finally making the leap into the exciting world of high def! I'm located in West Seattle (nearest cross street is Admiral and 59th). Am I in a bad spot or what? I'm hoping to be able to get away with just an indoor antenna, but it's looking like I will have to turn to DirecTV for my hdtv. :(

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Angel

I'm down in West Seattle near Westwood with the cheapo Channel Master on my roof...get everything no problem.

Originally posted by AngelInAlki
Hi everyone!

I'm finally making the leap into the exciting world of high def! I'm located in West Seattle (nearest cross street is Admiral and 59th). Am I in a bad spot or what? I'm hoping to be able to get away with just an indoor antenna, but it's looking like I will have to turn to DirecTV for my hdtv. :(

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Angel
Welcome to AVI Angel. I checked your location and you should have no problems with 4,5,6,7 on Queen Anne or ch 13 in Bremerton. 9,11,22 might give you some problems since you are in the shadow of the Alki hill. Everything is NE of you except ch 13 which is due west. So you may need to rotate your antenna for 13. You should be able to get most or all with an indoor antenna but an outdoor unit is always better. What is the basis for your statement about DirecTV? Are you not able to pull in very much?

Wow, that was fast. Thanks for the quick replies guys! Sounds promising. :)

Oh, nothing against DirecTV HD... I just prefer to experiment with OTA first since it's free! ;) I'll be giving the Zenith Silver Sensor a try and will post back with the results. Thanks again.

To keep things on the West Seattle front, I'm now looking at a house near the West Seattle Bridge near 37th Avenue SW and SW Manning Street. I'm guessing I shouldn't have too many problems...but I'll scout it out in person tonight.

Originally posted by BigBrownBoy
To keep things on the West Seattle front, I'm now looking at a house near the West Seattle Bridge near 37th Avenue SW and SW Manning Street. I'm guessing I shouldn't have too many problems...but I'll scout it out in person tonight.
Yep, that location looks pretty good for all towers.

Originally posted by quarque
Yep, that location looks pretty good for all towers.

That part of the hill can be tougher than it looks for ch13. Lots of houses, trees, etc. Everything else is HOT !! Use an attenuator if you use an outdoor antenna.
Dan

Anyone have issues with Medium this week? On my recording it was a frozen image for several minutes and then was a reduced size 16:9 SD image after that. Just trying to determine if it was a computer issue here or a broadcast issue.

Edit: In the HD Programming section there's a thread--it was apparently a nationwide issue.

Wondering if I can get a read on my address:

27820 NE 152nd St.
Duvall, WA 98019

So far I have had better luck with the Radio Shack silver 'O' shaped indoor ant than the silver sensor but still not very consistent. Should I even bother trying to get a rooftop antenna or am I too far out? TIA

Originally posted by Karyk
I'm fairly certain MDM offers HD on at least part of Capitol Hill.

Absolutely not. Where are you getting your information on this?

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Absolutely not. Where are you getting your information on this?

According to Millennium, they do:

http://www.mdm.net/images/nwlineups/Seattle.pdf

HIGH DEFINITION
704 KOMO/ABC
705 KING/NBC
706 KONG
707 KIRO/CBS
713 KCPQ/FOX
722 KTWB/WB

Originally posted by tekboy2000
Wondering if I can get a read on my address:

27820 NE 152nd St.
Duvall, WA 98019

So far I have had better luck with the Radio Shack silver 'O' shaped indoor ant than the silver sensor but still not very consistent. Should I even bother trying to get a rooftop antenna or am I too far out? TIA

It's very possible, there, with an outdoor antenna. If you have a clear view to the west/southwest through the trees, signal should be pretty good. Ch5 is always a little weaker, but will work if you find the right spot. Try a 4221, first. It doesn't have to be mounted on the roof. If you can see across the valley from the side of the house, that will work just as good.
Dan

Warren Electronics finally shipped my jointenna yesterday (it was ordered over a month ago). I should have it Saturday (5/7). The combo of the amplified 4248 and 4228 (for fox only) has been working great. The a/b switch has been a minor pain for programmed recordings but the actual reception has been really solid. Since Dish shipped me a replacement 921 reciever it seems to me the new one does a better job of holding the signal. It also seems the levels are higher (I saw a 107 on KOMO yesterday). And although this is a little off subject, I picked up the 10 channel VOOM package that Dish is offering for $5.00 per month. They installed a new dish to point to the 61.5. The installer said only about 5% of locations in this area get a usable signal from that sat. So I guess that fate smiled on me because I'm getting a really good level (about the same level as what I get from 148).

Originally posted by pastiche
According to Millennium, they do:

http://www.mdm.net/images/nwlineups/Seattle.pdf

HIGH DEFINITION
704 KOMO/ABC
705 KING/NBC
706 KONG
707 KIRO/CBS
713 KCPQ/FOX
722 KTWB/WB

Hmm..thank you very much, time for some investigation on my part. But if those are the only channels, what's the point? I get all those free OTA, I want HDNet, UHD, ESPNHD, HBO-HD etc...
No reason to spend money for the free DTV channels...

MDM needs to start offering a complete HD package like Comcast and D*

Originally posted by DanKurts
It's very possible, there, with an outdoor antenna. If you have a clear view to the west/southwest through the trees, signal should be pretty good. Ch5 is always a little weaker, but will work if you find the right spot. Try a 4221, first. It doesn't have to be mounted on the roof. If you can see across the valley from the side of the house, that will work just as good.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I will try the CM 4221 in the attic and reply with results.

New to the forum! I was wondering if someone was able to plot my location. I just got DTV to put a triple dish for a future upgrade to HD,part of the move program. I would like to try an OTA first before subscribing to a whopping 5 channels of HD and read that someone has been giving reads on their location.

My location is just north of Martha lake in Lynnwood at the crossroads of 148th Pl SW and 2 Ave N.

Thanks in advance!! Lots of great info here.

Duane

Here's an update concerning MDM Cable in high definition: After shooting a few emails back and forth with MDM Digital customer service( they were awesome BTW), this is what they are telling me.

Currently all the locals are offered in HD, same ones as DTV, totalling 6 channels. Ok...I asked about the premium channels. Paraphrasing I was told that contracts are currently being negotiated and the staff believes more premium HD channels will be offered within 2 months. That is straight from the horse's mouth.
So I sent a final email asking for HDNet, ESPNHD, UHD, and DiscoveryHD. I told them if they offered these along with the 6 networks that they currently do, it would be a compelling HD lineup worth the cost to the customer.
If you would like to send MDM an email regarding this or to get your opinion heard please email "contact_nw@mdm.net"

Even if this doesnt apply to you, it would be nice if you have an extra minute to shoot them an email and tell them to get the ball rolling. Thanks all, and let's hope for a comprehensive HD package from MDM Cable soon.

Originally posted by unclduey
New to the forum! I was wondering if someone was able to plot my location. I just got DTV to put a triple dish for a future upgrade to HD,part of the move program. I would like to try an OTA first before subscribing to a whopping 5 channels of HD and read that someone has been giving reads on their location.

My location is just north of Martha lake in Lynnwood at the crossroads of 148th Pl SW and 2 Ave N.

Thanks in advance!! Lots of great info here.

Duane

I assume you meant 2nd ave SW.
Looks good. You have a short distance of possible trees until you're past 164th, but if there aren't too many, you should be okay.
Dan

Thanks Dankurts,

I just moved in here last weekend, the address is 2nd Ave West and 148th Pl SW. I am directly east of the old Martha Lake Airstrip, across the street actually. If not too much to ask could you rerun the LOS.

I am mainly looking for the major networks 4,5,7,13. The Dtv installer said only buy a $300.00 antenna, the rest are junk. I dont see too many posts with people purchasing $300.00 antennas. What antenna seems to be the one of choice up in my area?

Thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

Duane

Originally posted by unclduey
Thanks Dankurts,

I just moved in here last weekend, the address is 2nd Ave West and 148th Pl SW. I am directly east of the old Martha Lake Airstrip, across the street actually. If not too much to ask could you rerun the LOS.

I am mainly looking for the major networks 4,5,7,13. The Dtv installer said only buy a $300.00 antenna, the rest are junk. I dont see too many posts with people purchasing $300.00 antennas. What antenna seems to be the one of choice up in my area?

Thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

Duane

Welcome to the area! I'm in Mill Creek, not too far from you. I'm get good reception of all the Seattle area DTV channels using a Channel Master CM4248 Yagi antenna. the CM4228 8-bay antenna is also highly recommened in our area.

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/UHFAnts.htm

Ideally you'll want to mount the antenna outdoors as high as possible.

Thanks litzdog, Are these antennas multi directional? I dont need to rotate or amp or ?? I really am a newbie at this as you can tell! If I use a DTV HD receiver then I can at least get some paid HD if it doesnt work too well. I didnt want to buy a HD receiver (Samsung) and not get a decent signal and then.....

Originally posted by unclduey
Thanks litzdog, Are these antennas multi directional? I dont need to rotate or amp or ?? I really am a newbie at this as you can tell! If I use a DTV HD receiver then I can at least get some paid HD if it doesnt work too well. I didnt want to buy a HD receiver (Samsung) and not get a decent signal and then.....

Both of the antennas I mentioned are quite directional, but that's OK from our location. You basically aim south. Check out http://www.antennaweb.org and enter your address to see the exact compass headings for our digital broadcasters. You'll want to aim towards Queen Anne, which should provide enough beamwidth to pick up the other transmitters on Capital Hill and Bremerton.

Also, dig back in this thread a ways .... there's a link to an excellent document that provides a nice "how to" guide for receiving DTV signals in the Puget Sound region.

It's unlikely you'll need a preamp, unless your cable runs really long (over 150-ft or so). Try it first without one.

Good luck!

Here's the link to the Puget Sound HDTV FAQ document ....

http://dtv.contour.org/PugetSoundDTVFAQ.zip

Originally posted by unclduey
Thanks Dankurts,

I just moved in here last weekend, the address is 2nd Ave West and 148th Pl SW. I am directly east of the old Martha Lake Airstrip, across the street actually. If not too much to ask could you rerun the LOS.

I am mainly looking for the major networks 4,5,7,13. The Dtv installer said only buy a $300.00 antenna, the rest are junk. I dont see too many posts with people purchasing $300.00 antennas. What antenna seems to be the one of choice up in my area?

Thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

Duane

Duane
I meant 2nd west.
Use a 4221. If that doesn't work, then a 4248. Neither costs anywhere near $300.
Dan

Hi Dan and the rest of the field,

Heeding Dan's recommendation, I finally put up the 15-2160 on my attic, splitting 3 way (all terminated) it gave me everything possible in NE Kenmore, signal meter a bit higher than a standalone SS. That is until later in the day when there was some rain, everything else was still OK but KOMO started to break. Funny thing was this used to be one of the more reliable station either with my SS or the amplified Jensen low profile. Since still in debug mode, I added a $30 RS amplifier before the split and it did crank everyone a bit but still no help to 4. I have the TU-DST52 and LST-3510A, the latter seems a bit better in resolving some signals in most occasions but not in this. Here are my questions:

- Looks like I don't really need an amp, or do I need a better one, like the CM something?
- Would a more directional/more gain antenna be the answer? Which one? My attic probably can accommodate any size given its element can fit the "man hole".
- Anything else that I should try besides from changing the elevation and azimuth?

Thanks in advance,
Tuquet.

Originally posted by unclduey
Thanks Dankurts,

I just moved in here last weekend, the address is 2nd Ave West and 148th Pl SW. I am directly east of the old Martha Lake Airstrip, across the street actually. If not too much to ask could you rerun the LOS.

I am mainly looking for the major networks 4,5,7,13. The Dtv installer said only buy a $300.00 antenna, the rest are junk. I dont see too many posts with people purchasing $300.00 antennas. What antenna seems to be the one of choice up in my area?

Thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

Duane

Did the dtv installer identify the manufacturer and model # of the 300.00 dollar antenna? If there were a magic antenna that worked for all and saved time and toil it would sell very well indeed. But I am afraid that personal experience has proven to me that it is not that simple. You may be lucky on your location or not. Most people do not buy their home with optimal uhf reception in mind. Good luck on getting it right with minimum effort. But if at first you don't succeed, keep trying. I live off 164th near 3rd Ave. Getting it right was a bear. In the end I succeeded with a combo cm4248 (all but kcpq) and cm4228 (kcpq only) with a cm7775 amp and a jointenna. But it did take a lot of trial and error and in the end just plain dumb luck. Maybe you'll get it straight off. I have no reason to question the voracity of the dtv installer. But again, if a 300.00 simple install that saved countless trips to the roof and floated all boats was available...WOW such a deal. You might just be lucky though. Perhaps weighing in your favor, Robglasser is just slightly to the west and north of me and I gather he was able to get all channels using just a cm4221. Regardless, the most expensive antenna mentioned above was in the $50.00 something range.

I was just visiting attennaweb.org and noticed a channel listed, for possible reception in my area SE of Yelm, that I was not aware of. It is located in Ashford, K54AQ channel 54 at a compass heading of 103*. The site also stated it's distance is only 26.9 miles from me and carries ABC. Is this new? I have not seen or heard of any reference to it before. 27 miles is much closer then the Seattle stations but wonder what type of obstacles the terrain would pose? Any one have any information on this?

Originally posted by tuquet
Hi Dan and the rest of the field,

Heeding Dan's recommendation, I finally put up the 15-2160 on my attic, splitting 3 way (all terminated) it gave me everything possible in NE Kenmore, signal meter a bit higher than a standalone SS. That is until later in the day when there was some rain, everything else was still OK but KOMO started to break. Funny thing was this used to be one of the more reliable station either with my SS or the amplified Jensen low profile. Since still in debug mode, I added a $30 RS amplifier before the split and it did crank everyone a bit but still no help to 4. I have the TU-DST52 and LST-3510A, the latter seems a bit better in resolving some signals in most occasions but not in this. Here are my questions:

- Looks like I don't really need an amp, or do I need a better one, like the CM something?
- Would a more directional/more gain antenna be the answer? Which one? My attic probably can accommodate any size given its element can fit the "man hole".
- Anything else that I should try besides from changing the elevation and azimuth?

Thanks in advance,
Tuquet.

Tuquet
Your problem is the attic.
When the roof gets wet, it changes the reception. I wouldn't try to amplify it more. Usually the problem is too much signal there, even in an attic. But the wood inside also allows the signal to bounce around as well as acting like a filter-worst of both problems.
You need to get it outside. The other channels that are working are probably almost as ugly, signal wise, but they're just above minimums. You can drive yourself crazy trying to make the attic work. The antenna is small and forgiving, so you can actualy get away with some unorthadox locations. It can be mounted on the side of the house or under a deck, as long as it can see the towers, and clears the majority of any houses or trees nearby.
Azimuth and elevation are not very critical with that antenna, just point in the basic direction. The Panasonic is not very good with ugly signals, the other is quite good, thus the difference.
Find someplace outside and you'll probably be fine. At least try it. It will help you get a fix on what location and angle is best. Then if you still want to try inside, at least you'll know where the sweet spot is.
Dan

Originally posted by radtek
I was just visiting attennaweb.org and noticed a channel listed, for possible reception in my area SE of Yelm, that I was not aware of. It is located in Ashford, K54AQ channel 54 at a compass heading of 103*. The site also stated it's distance is only 26.9 miles from me and carries ABC. Is this new? I have not seen or heard of any reference to it before. 27 miles is much closer then the Seattle stations but wonder what type of obstacles the terrain would pose? Any one have any information on this?

radtek
The FCC site shows nothing in Ashford, no channel 54 near there, nothing with that call sign. KOMO, which is ABC for Puget Sound, doesn't show any repeaters, analog or otherwise. I think it might have been something from the past, but no longer there.
There is a channel 54 K54GS for analog KIRO, near Puyallup South Hill, and shoots low power north to cover the Sumner/Puyallup area, but that won't do anything for what you want, HD.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=66788
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Tuquet
Your problem is the attic.
When the roof gets wet, it changes the reception. I wouldn't try to amplify it more. Usually the problem is too much signal there, even in an attic. But the wood inside also allows the signal to bounce around as well as acting like a filter-worst of both problems.
You need to get it outside. The other channels that are working are probably almost as ugly, signal wise, but they're just above minimums. You can drive yourself crazy trying to make the attic work. The antenna is small and forgiving, so you can actualy get away with some unorthadox locations. It can be mounted on the side of the house or under a deck, as long as it can see the towers, and clears the majority of any houses or trees nearby.
Azimuth and elevation are not very critical with that antenna, just point in the basic direction. The Panasonic is not very good with ugly signals, the other is quite good, thus the difference.
Find someplace outside and you'll probably be fine. At least try it. It will help you get a fix on what location and angle is best. Then if you still want to try inside, at least you'll know where the sweet spot is.
Dan Thanks Dan. I thought I wouldn't need the amplifier. I will probably have to get outside but not right now. There will be houses coming up in the next few years that are in my LOS of the towers. I will have to see what it does general. In the mean time, would the 4221 be better in blocking reflection?

Tuquet

Originally posted by unclduey
Thanks Dankurts,

I just moved in here last weekend, the address is 2nd Ave West and 148th Pl SW. I am directly east of the old Martha Lake Airstrip, across the street actually. If not too much to ask could you rerun the LOS.

I am mainly looking for the major networks 4,5,7,13. The Dtv installer said only buy a $300.00 antenna, the rest are junk. I dont see too many posts with people purchasing $300.00 antennas. What antenna seems to be the one of choice up in my area?

Thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

Duane

I am just west of Martha Lake on 2nd Pl W, and get all the broadcast stations fine, with a CM4221. I got mine online from Solid Signal (AVSForum Sponsor) for around $30.00 including shipping. I have some breakup issues with channel 9 when it's windy but I think it's because of some trees in the path of my antenna, not far away. Haven't taken the time yet to move the antenna around to other locations on the roof. Everything else has been solid.

Duane
I meant 2nd west.
Use a 4221. If that doesn't work, then a 4248. Neither costs anywhere near $300.
Dan

Dan
Thank you, I ordered a 4228 this weekend
Duane

Anyone watch Malcolm in the Middle and the Simpsons last night? If so did you notice any really quick (like 1 sec) audio dropouts and slight, not even full screen, pixelization? Trying to figure out if it was the feed or the OTA Tuner in my new Dish 942. Dropouts and such were a rarity on channel 13 for me with the 921.

Originally posted by robglasser
Anyone watch Malcolm in the Middle and the Simpsons last night? If so did you notice any really quick (like 1 sec) audio dropouts and slight, not even full screen, pixelization? Trying to figure out if it was the feed or the OTA Tuner in my new Dish 942. Dropouts and such were a rarity on channel 13 for me with the 921.

I didn't notice any issues when I watched my HR10-250 DirecTivo recording from KCPQ-DT last night.

Originally posted by litzdog911
I didn't notice any issues when I watched my HR10-250 DirecTivo recording from KCPQ-DT last night.

argghhh not what I wanted to hear, but what I expected. I'll have to keep an eye on this. *sigh* Hopefully it won't get too bad because everything else about the 942 is way better than the 921.

Originally posted by radtek
I was just visiting attennaweb.org and noticed a channel listed, for possible reception in my area SE of Yelm, that I was not aware of. It is located in Ashford, K54AQ channel 54 at a compass heading of 103*. The site also stated it's distance is only 26.9 miles from me and carries ABC. Is this new? I have not seen or heard of any reference to it before. 27 miles is much closer then the Seattle stations but wonder what type of obstacles the terrain would pose? Any one have any information on this?
K54AQ was an old UHF repeater (not digital) abandoned many years ago. There are lots of these around the country. Satellite and cable has doomed many UHF repeaters... :(

Originally posted by robglasser
argghhh not what I wanted to hear, but what I expected. I'll have to keep an eye on this. *sigh* Hopefully it won't get too bad because everything else about the 942 is way better than the 921.

Well, definetly have tuner problems, 24 was almost unwatchable last night, and pretty much anytime I turn on 13 I can see it start to have breakups within a few minutes. Reading up on dbstalk.com looks like the 942 is more suceptible to multipath issues and not as reliable a tuner as some of the other receivers they have put out. Some people have had better luck pointing their antenna further away from the direction of the tower and locking in a more stable lower signal. Guess I'll get back up on the roof tonigiht. I see on channel 13 my signal meter bounces between 83 - 91 with occasionaly dips into the high 70's, where as every other channel is pretty solid. i.e. 100, or 88-89, or 95-96 and doesn't bounce around. If anyone has any other suggestions I'm all ears. Someone else on dbstalk.com even suggested removing the metal mesh from the back of the 4221 to increase it's reception path, not sure if I buy into that.

This is a prime example of the frustation with HDTV viewing. Here we have, yankees/M's on national ESPN TV in HD, yet in Seattle market we are forced to watch the SD version on our local FSN affliate. There were TWO channels broadcasting the HD version but we are forced to watch the damn game in SD. Talk about a bunch of crap. And when I tried to call in to D* to complain, the customer service lady says the answer is to swap out my card. Talk about a bunch of idiots. Rant Over.

Originally posted by rastamonsta
This is a prime example of the frustation with HDTV viewing. Here we have, yankees/M's on national ESPN TV in HD, yet in Seattle market we are forced to watch the SD version on our local FSN affliate. There were TWO channels broadcasting the HD version but we are forced to watch the damn game in SD. Talk about a bunch of crap. And when I tried to call in to D* to complain, the customer service lady says the answer is to swap out my card. Talk about a bunch of idiots. Rant Over.


Why would you call to complain about this to DirecTv? They don't make the blackout rules, they are legally obligated to enforce them.

Not only that, but D* is carrying 40 Mariners games from FSN in your market this year in HD. Not much to complain about there:

"FSN AND DIRECTV TO PRESENT MARINERS BASEBALL IN HDTV
FSN and DIRECTV will present Seattle Mariners baseball in high-definition television (HDTV). The first of 40 Mariners games in HDTV will debut on Wednesday, April 20th at 7pm when the Mariners take on the Oakland Athletics. All of the live games are available to DIRECTV customers on viewer channel 95 throughout the Northwest region, which includes Washington, Oregon and parts of Montana, Idaho and Alaska."

Threads merged.

Ok, I have been lurking here for a while and not seen a recommendation for a situation quite like mine. I am betweeen Monroe and Duvall but up on a ridge so I get pretty good DTV signals with the toy indoor antenna that came with my ATI HDTV card.

The issue is that its very directional, and as I can get signals from Seattle and Tacoma and Bellingham but only if I move it around and directly point it at them. Thats a big spread though from 214 degrees to 308 degrees.

I'd like to move to an outside antenna to avoid the loss of signal when someone walks in front of it or trips over the cable :-) but I am not clear which antenna's will let me get this spread, or do I need a rotor?

Thanks

Originally posted by robglasser
Well, definetly have tuner problems, 24 was almost unwatchable last night, and pretty much anytime I turn on 13 I can see it start to have breakups within a few minutes. Reading up on dbstalk.com looks like the 942 is more suceptible to multipath issues and not as reliable a tuner as some of the other receivers they have put out. Some people have had better luck pointing their antenna further away from the direction of the tower and locking in a more stable lower signal. Guess I'll get back up on the roof tonigiht. I see on channel 13 my signal meter bounces between 83 - 91 with occasionaly dips into the high 70's, where as every other channel is pretty solid. i.e. 100, or 88-89, or 95-96 and doesn't bounce around. If anyone has any other suggestions I'm all ears. Someone else on dbstalk.com even suggested removing the metal mesh from the back of the 4221 to increase it's reception path, not sure if I buy into that.

Rob, you might want to try an attenuator for your KCPQ (Ch 18) antenna only. Maybe the 942 is easily overloaded, like my HR10-250 OTA tuner. And it's easy to try. Put the attenuator before the JoinTenna, between the Channel 18 antenna and the Ch 18 input on the JoinTenna.

Originally posted by ianserv
Ok, I have been lurking here for a while and not seen a recommendation for a situation quite like mine. I am betweeen Monroe and Duvall but up on a ridge so I get pretty good DTV signals with the toy indoor antenna that came with my ATI HDTV card.

The issue is that its very directional, and as I can get signals from Seattle and Tacoma and Bellingham but only if I move it around and directly point it at them. Thats a big spread though from 214 degrees to 308 degrees.

I'd like to move to an outside antenna to avoid the loss of signal when someone walks in front of it or trips over the cable :-) but I am not clear which antenna's will let me get this spread, or do I need a rotor?

Thanks

You won't find a directional antenna that can receive both Seattle and Bellingham without a rotator. You might be able to use two antennas and a combiner, with one antenna aimed to Seattle and the other to Bellingham. But combiners sometimes don't work well.

Recommended antennas include:

Radio Shack 15-2160
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

Channel Master 4228 or 4248
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/UHFAnts.htm

Channel Master also builds a variety of combiners
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm

I'm actually only using a single antenna for everything, CM4221. I tried an antenuator back when I had my 4228 on the 921 to see if it would do anything and it didn't. Guess it can't hurt to try it with my 942 to see if it does anything. I take it you think it will help reduce the amount of signal bouncing I'm seeing (which I am just assuming is multipath)?

Has anyone else noticed that their signal seems to be much weaker than it was a few days ago? Since sometime over the weekend we've been getting a much weaker signal from them to the point where it isn't watchable.

alex

Originally posted by tuquet
Thanks Dan. I thought I wouldn't need the amplifier. I will probably have to get outside but not right now. There will be houses coming up in the next few years that are in my LOS of the towers. I will have to see what it does general. In the mean time, would the 4221 be better in blocking reflection?

Tuquet

Somewhat. It blocks from the rear great, but it's not very directional, picks up from about 80 degress either side of center.
It would be a lot easier to deal with in the attic. You might try a RatShack 15-2160, a small yagi. It is a little more directional, and if it doesn't work you can take it back.
Dan

Originally posted by Alex Wetmore
Has anyone else noticed that their signal seems to be much weaker than it was a few days ago? Since sometime over the weekend we've been getting a much weaker signal from them to the point where it isn't watchable.

alex

I haven't checked signal strength on either of my cards (nor would I remember what the numbers were previously), but my recording of 24 came out fine this week, and that's with an antenna that's pointed 90% away from Gold Mountain.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Somewhat. It blocks from the rear great, but it's not very directional, picks up from about 80 degress either side of center.
It would be a lot easier to deal with in the attic. You might try a RatShack 15-2160, a small yagi. It is a little more directional, and if it doesn't work you can take it back.
Dan The 15-2160 is what I have in my attic now. I think I know my problem now, it is the leaves in the nearby trees. During the day when there tends to be more wind everything is kind of choppy. Moving the antenna around does help some but there is no one position that could serve all. Evenings and early mornings when it is calm everything comes in nicely. When they start building houses there I will have a more definite result.

Originally posted by tuquet
The 15-2160 is what I have in my attic now. I think I know my problem now, it is the leaves in the nearby trees. During the day when there tends to be more wind everything is kind of choppy. Moving the antenna around does help some but there is no one position that could serve all. Evenings and early mornings when it is calm everything comes in nicely. When they start building houses there I will have a more definite result.

Moving that antenna outside will make a big difference.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Moving that antenna outside will make a big difference. If the trees are the problem as I assumed, I am not sure if going outside will help much. That said, trying at an open window is next on my plate. If I had to go outside, the Silver Sensor may be enough as it provided adequate signal from the attic splitting 3 ways (STB reading in the 60s, the 2160 in the 80s). One strange thing though is for analog 22, the SS gives a smooth picture while the 2160 seems marginal at the same antenna position.

Originally posted by robglasser
I'm actually only using a single antenna for everything, CM4221. I tried an antenuator back when I had my 4228 on the 921 to see if it would do anything and it didn't. Guess it can't hurt to try it with my 942 to see if it does anything. I take it you think it will help reduce the amount of signal bouncing I'm seeing (which I am just assuming is multipath)?

Well, I picked up a rat shack adjustable antenuator last night and it seemed to stabilize 13, but hosed up 11 and made 9 worse than it already was. I also think the antenuator broke because at first turning it all the way down made my signals look like the antenuator wasn't there, turning it all the way up took my signal to just about nothing. At one point while turning it I felt a little resistance and a click. After that turning it all the way down or up made about a quarter of the difference it did at first. Basically I found to stabilize 13 I turn it up till I lose about 10% of my signal strength. At this point I get 13 at 78- 80, vs about 75 - 91, however my 11 reception drops from about 80 to about 70 and incurs fairly regular dropouts, the same with 9, it goes from about the mid 70's to the mid 60's and drops out more frequently. Removing the antenuator fixes those stations. I think I'm going to play with moving my antenna around now to see if I can stabilize things.

Originally posted by robglasser
Well, I picked up a rat shack adjustable antenuator last night and it seemed to stabilize 13, but hosed up 11 and made 9 worse than it already was. I also think the antenuator broke because at first turning it all the way down made my signals look like the antenuator wasn't there, turning it all the way up took my signal to just about nothing. At one point while turning it I felt a little resistance and a click. After that turning it all the way down or up made about a quarter of the difference it did at first. Basically I found to stabilize 13 I turn it up till I lose about 10% of my signal strength. At this point I get 13 at 78- 80, vs about 75 - 91, however my 11 reception drops from about 80 to about 70 and incurs fairly regular dropouts, the same with 9, it goes from about the mid 70's to the mid 60's and drops out more frequently. Removing the antenuator fixes those stations. I think I'm going to play with moving my antenna around now to see if I can stabilize things.

Rob, I thought you had TWO antennas connected with a JoinTenna.

Putting the attenuator on just the Ch 18 (KCPQ-DT) antenna should not mess up your other channels.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Rob, I thought you had TWO antennas connected with a JoinTenna.

Putting the attenuator on just the Ch 18 (KCPQ-DT) antenna should not mess up your other channels.

No Jointenna. That was Chuck. I just have a single CM4221 getting everything.

hey litz - shouldn't you be over on the Tivo forum! :)

Originally posted by quarque
hey litz - shouldn't you be over on the Tivo forum! :)

You caught me! :D

Originally posted by robglasser
Well, I picked up a rat shack adjustable antenuator last night and it seemed to stabilize 13, but hosed up 11 and made 9 worse than it already was. I also think the antenuator broke because at first turning it all the way down made my signals look like the antenuator wasn't there, turning it all the way up took my signal to just about nothing. At one point while turning it I felt a little resistance and a click. After that turning it all the way down or up made about a quarter of the difference it did at first. Basically I found to stabilize 13 I turn it up till I lose about 10% of my signal strength. At this point I get 13 at 78- 80, vs about 75 - 91, however my 11 reception drops from about 80 to about 70 and incurs fairly regular dropouts, the same with 9, it goes from about the mid 70's to the mid 60's and drops out more frequently. Removing the antenuator fixes those stations. I think I'm going to play with moving my antenna around now to see if I can stabilize things.

Well, I went by rat shack again last night and this time picked up their $4.00 inline 6dB non-adjustable antenuator. Hooked it up and it seems to have stabilized Channel 13, and not negatively impacted any other station. 13 is now sitting between 88 - 90, 11 is back up to 87 - 89, and 9 is back up to the mid 70s. Now to get some wind and rain and make sure it stays stable through the different weather.

Originally posted by tuquet
If the trees are the problem as I assumed, I am not sure if going outside will help much. That said, trying at an open window is next on my plate. If I had to go outside, the Silver Sensor may be enough as it provided adequate signal from the attic splitting 3 ways (STB reading in the 60s, the 2160 in the 80s). One strange thing though is for analog 22, the SS gives a smooth picture while the 2160 seems marginal at the same antenna position.

tuquet
Don't even try for clean analog UHF around here. The fact you were getting it clean inside was just luck, a matter of the right antenna at the right freq and location. Moving an antenna outside will always be better than inside, trees or not. If the SS works outside, great. Be sure to seal the connections well, it was not made to be outside. If it dies after a few years from corrosion, no big expense, just throw up another.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
tuquet
Don't even try for clean analog UHF around here. The fact you were getting it clean inside was just luck, a matter of the right antenna at the right freq and location. Moving an antenna outside will always be better than inside, trees or not. If the SS works outside, great. Be sure to seal the connections well, it was not made to be outside. If it dies after a few years from corrosion, no big expense, just throw up another.
Dan Ever since my last message, I had no problems at all so my outdoors quest is on hold. I hope I don't jinx it by saying this but I really hope I don't have to go outside. It is not the installation but the wear and tear that I want to avoid if possible. Lacking of a spectrum analyzer, I used 16/22 for a general multipath reference, looked pretty good. Much thanks for all the advices.
By the way, for those who did not have success with a SS in places that you generally should have, keep in mind that not all SSs are made the same (so be careful when stacking too). When I got my first SS a few years back, it worked so well that I decided to get a spare one, from the same place. The second one did not work at all, or to be fair, similar to a coat hanger. I "operated" it but did not see anything obvious.

tuquet - if it ain't broke... let sleeping dogs lie... and uh, let's see, were you any good at the game "Operation" as a kid? That is the best predictor of successful "operations" on antennas.

HDTV is apparently turning into REAM-TV and we are the ones getting reamed. How many other ways will "they" think of to charge us more fees? I'm sticking with OTA until the bitter end.

Originally posted by quarque
tuquet - if it ain't broke... let sleeping dogs lie... and uh, let's see, were you any good at the game "Operation" as a kid? That is the best predictor of successful "operations" on antennas. Yup, my intention is to let the dogs sleep. But sorry, there was no "Operation" game where I grew up as a kid.

Where can I buy the Channel Master antennas and pre amps in north western WA? I live in Vancouver, B.C. and none of the online retailers will ship antennas to Canada, so it is time for a road trip. I am looking for the 4228 and the 7777 pre amp.
TIA.

CIVT-DT has started broadcasting on Channel 33
Those of you in Seattle won't be able to get this because of 33 being
an analog channel. Signal reports from Everett and North would be interesting. Here's a link to a Canadian discussion on the subject:
http://www.canadian-tv.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=HDTV&Number=212117&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=

Originally posted by madbob
Where can I buy the Channel Master antennas and pre amps in north western WA? I live in Vancouver, B.C. and none of the online retailers will ship antennas to Canada, so it is time for a road trip. I am looking for the 4228 and the 7777 pre amp.
TIA. Try:

Pringle Electronic Distribution
3011 Grand Ave
Everett, WA 98201 - 3910
(425) 258-6161

I would call them first, good luck.