I'm finally getting good KIRO-DT reception again! I live in Kenmore about 0.6 mi up the slew. Ever since they added an additional TX tube my reception has been poor up North. Looks like KIRO recently enhanced the radiation energy towards Kenmore.

I'm curious if any of you pros have opinions or insider knowledge on what improvements we might see with the new 5th generation chips that LG is releasing.

I'm doubly cursed because I'm a ways from the transmitters and I have to shoot through the neighbors' fir trees. I can almost always get KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, and KTWB, although at times KING and KIRO are problematic. I have a lot of trouble with KCPQ, and KOMO is always a no-go due to their transmitter's orientation.

I use a Fusion PC card, and the signal strength it gives is in DB. I don't know what the numbers mean, but my strong stations are 16-20DB, KIRO and KCPQ are more like 10-13DB, and KOMO is down around 5DB.

anyone from Monroe to Everett having problems with the various incarnations of KCTS-DT? or is it just me (again :( )

Just checkin' in briefly to let everyone know I've updated the DTV FAQ for our area. I still haven't addressed all of the items I want to update, but I thought I should get a new version out that has the updated Comcast QAM channel numbers and latest multicasting information.

-Lance

Originally posted by tuquet
Yup, my intention is to let the dogs sleep. But sorry, there was no "Operation" game where I grew up as a kid.
Well that is a real shame. If you've never seen one, the basic idea is to remove various "things" from the "patient" with a pair of tweezers. You had to extract things through very narrow openings. If you touched the side of the opening, a light and buzzer went off and you had to start over. Great for developing a steady hand and nerves of steel! :D

That begs the question: where did you grow up?

Lance - thanks for your tireless efforts.

Steve - all I've heard out 5th gen. chips is they are better at dealing with multipath interference. One would hope they would be coupled with better front-ends with better AGC so people in the sticks can get weak stations and people close in won't get overloaded so easily. Without putting an analyzer on your cable it is hard to tell if you are the victim of multipath or weak signals or both. You might investigate a stacked array - check out the general antenna thread at the top of this forum. Some very knowledgeable people hang around there.

Originally posted by quarque
Well that is a real shame. If you've never seen one, the basic idea is to remove various "things" from the "patient" with a pair of tweezers. You had to extract things through very narrow openings. If you touched the side of the opening, a light and buzzer went off and you had to start over. Great for developing a steady hand and nerves of steel! :D

That begs the question: where did you grow up? VN. The antenna was much simpler to operate on though I couldn't save it. BTW, I tried the antenna outside last Sunday, it was windy and wet. There seemed to be no gain in stability. I am sure there probably would with due diligence but the gain may not be worth the effort. I guess I am content with the attic for now.

VN. Well, just goes to show what one reads into a screen name. I was thinking French Canadian!?! I use my "handle" all over the web and I get tons of spam in Spanish. I guess it looks like Spanish but it is just a nonsense name I came up with because "quark" and every other combination of quarkXXX was already taken when I got my first ISP years ago.

Anyway, it is interesting that you saw no major change going outside. I personally don't think attics are major signal killers in many cases. And I don't subscribe to the theory that you are getting tons of reflected signals being inside an attic (unless you have metal roofing or foil insulation). In my case I found going thru a wall (2 sheets of drywall and a layer of wood siding) reduced my signal more than one layer of plywood and shingles in the roof. I ended up outside anyway because I already had the chimney mount hardware. In the early days I wasn't sure if the dropouts were due to the antenna being inside or not so I wanted to eliminate that variable.

Perhaps the subconciousness from the French colonization time? No, it was my once up on a time nick name. Otherwise I would not feel comfortable signing it.

Thanks for the FAQ, Lance - great info. I'm in Redmond (160th Ave NE / NE 90th St) experimenting with a Samsung T351 with a Channel Master 4228, currently just up against the wall indoors next to the TV.

Now I can tune in to KOMO (ABC, 4.1) reasonably well (70%, according to the Samsung's bars) but nothing else from Queen Anne, not KING (NBC) nor KIRO (CBS). According to Lance's list, KOMO is the weakest and lowest transmission from Queen Anne, so what would be preventing me from getting the others? Any tips to try to get the tuner to lock in on the others?

I can also get KCPQ (FOX) at 70% with a different antenna angle, and KWPX (PAX) is almost always there. I found a sweet spot to get ABC/FOX/PAX all at 60%, but nothing from Capitol Hill so far. PBS would be great, but looks rather weak on Lance's list. Would a preamp help get any of the others?

Thanks

Originally posted by kwhumphreys
Thanks for the FAQ, Lance - great info. I'm in Redmond (160th Ave NE / NE 90th St) experimenting with a Samsung T351 with a Channel Master 4228, currently just up against the wall indoors next to the TV.

Now I can tune in to KOMO (ABC, 4.1) reasonably well (70%, according to the Samsung's bars) but nothing else from Queen Anne, not KING (NBC) nor KIRO (CBS). According to Lance's list, KOMO is the weakest and lowest transmission from Queen Anne, so what would be preventing me from getting the others? Any tips to try to get the tuner to lock in on the others?

I can also get KCPQ (FOX) at 70% with a different antenna angle, and KWPX (PAX) is almost always there. I found a sweet spot to get ABC/FOX/PAX all at 60%, but nothing from Capitol Hill so far. PBS would be great, but looks rather weak on Lance's list. Would a preamp help get any of the others?

Thanks
I did a topo plot from your location. You are at about 50 feet elevation and to the WSW of you in line with QA hill is a 450 foot hill. That is blocking your direct line-of-sight to the towers. You are probably getting KOMO via a reflection off something - pure luck. If you are able to get any other Seattle stations it will also be a pure-luck reflection. I would not hold my breath...

Thanks for plotting my location, Quarque. I knew I didn't have line of sight to anything, and analog reception is terrible, but I found a couple of postings here from folks on Education Hill in Redmond, and a couple of people in my neighborhood said they'd got a few channels with PC cards, so I thought it was worth a try.

Well, after wandering around the house (indoors) carrying the CM4228 for a while last night, I now find I can get everything on Lance's list apart from KVOS and KBTC (which are both really far away). That's all channels from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill, Tiger Mtn, plus FOX from Gold Mtn. There's no way they can all be lucky reflections is there?

I have one sweet spot which gets everything except UPN, and a small change in angle will get that but loses PBS. ABC and NBC are rather weak, and suffered some rain fade last night (extra heavy rain though), but the rest all come in at 60% or higher.

So now I just have to find a sweet spot for the antenna in the attic and I'll be very happy with PBS multicasts and most of the commercial stations (with ReplayTV commercial skip) at the bottom of the Sammamish River valley. Thanks for all the great info on this forum - I'd never have tried otherwise.

Originally posted by kwhumphreys
Thanks for plotting my location, Quarque. I knew I didn't have line of sight to anything, and analog reception is terrible, but I found a couple of postings here from folks on Education Hill in Redmond, and a couple of people in my neighborhood said they'd got a few channels with PC cards, so I thought it was worth a try.

Well, after wandering around the house (indoors) carrying the CM4228 for a while last night, I now find I can get everything on Lance's list apart from KVOS and KBTC (which are both really far away). That's all channels from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill, Tiger Mtn, plus FOX from Gold Mtn. There's no way they can all be lucky reflections is there?

I have one sweet spot which gets everything except UPN, and a small change in angle will get that but loses PBS. ABC and NBC are rather weak, and suffered some rain fade last night (extra heavy rain though), but the rest all come in at 60% or higher.

So now I just have to find a sweet spot for the antenna in the attic and I'll be very happy with PBS multicasts and most of the commercial stations (with ReplayTV commercial skip) at the bottom of the Sammamish River valley. Thanks for all the great info on this forum - I'd never have tried otherwise.
Well they are either reflections or refractions but definitely not a straight shot from the tower transmitters. You are so close that there is a lot of power even in reflected signals. The 4228 does a pretty good job of rejecting signals from the side or back, so that helps you a bunch. Congrats on your success!

Originally posted by quarque
Welcome to AVI Angel. I checked your location and you should have no problems with 4,5,6,7 on Queen Anne or ch 13 in Bremerton. 9,11,22 might give you some problems since you are in the shadow of the Alki hill. Everything is NE of you except ch 13 which is due west. So you may need to rotate your antenna for 13. You should be able to get most or all with an indoor antenna but an outdoor unit is always better.

Quarque, you were pretty much right on. No problems getting 4,5,6,7,13 and surprisingly all the PBS channels with the Silver Sensor. No go on UPN11 and WB22 though.

Is there anything else worth trying before getting an outdoor antenna?

Angel - only thing you can do is try moving the SS around and/or try the attic. The higher the antenna is the better your chances are. If you end up going outside you will probably want a CM4221 or similar 4-bay bowtie on a short mast. You can also try the (cheap & small) Radio Shack yagi: 15-2160. RS is pretty good about returns so give it a shot. I believe Fry's in Renton carries the 4221 if you can find it!

Tonight I have seen numerous video freezes and audio and video dropouts on KOMO-DT. My reception of the other Seattle DTV stations has been fine.

Anyone else having trouble with KOMO-DT tonight? I am seeing the problem on both my HD TiVo and my Hughes E-86.

It is possible I have a new reception problem here, but I have been watching OTA KOMO-DT for over 4 years with little problems.

Similar here, but I didn't think it was a reception problem as they didn't happen at the same time.

Tonight I have seen numerous video freezes and audio and video dropouts on KOMO-DT. My reception of the other Seattle DTV stations has been fine.

Anyone else having trouble with KOMO-DT tonight? I am seeing the problem on both my HD TiVo and my Hughes E-86.

It is possible I have a new reception problem here, but I have been watching OTA KOMO-DT for over 4 years with little problems.


I applaud KOMO for it's comittment to HD. Doing every news cast in HD has to be a pretty rare thing nationwide. Their local non-primetime delivery of HD is virtually flawless. I don't think I have ever had a single break up, freeze, audio pop, etc watching the local news in HD on KOMO.

That being said, when primetime rolls around, it's like Dr. Jeckel becomes Mr. Hyde or there is a full moon or something. All hell breaks loose. I consistently get the absolute worst HD delivery from KOMO during primetime than any other local affiliate, bar none! It's not even close. KOMO is in fact the only channel I have consistent drop outs/freezes/audio pops on during primetime. Happens virtually every night... Most notably was last week's LOST episode. I missed entire sentences of dialogue which is nothing unusual, but very frustrating nonetheless.

Don't really know what more I can say about KOMO. I've said it 10 times before exactly the same: primetime on KOMO can be very difficult to stick with for these reasons. Still, I believe KOMO puts the most effort into this HD thing, I just wish they would figure out what's up and fix it sooner than later. I literally have perfect line of site to their towers, I know it's not my end. Others continue to have these freezes/audio pops too, so I know I'm not alone. I admit over the coarse of a year or so the dropouts have been reduced, but not eliminated entirely.

On a more happy note: I relocated my indoor SS a bit and now am picking up 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 7-2, 9-1...9-5, 11-1, 16-1, 16-2, 22-1, and for the first time: 33-1...33-4. Unfortunately I now have to rotate the antenna slightlt now for 13-1, but it's a small price to pay for getting all those other channels in one antenna spot. Getting 11, 22, and 33 (Pax) has been very difficult for me in the past. So I'm a happy camper :)

Most notably was last week's LOST episode. I missed entire sentences of dialogue which is nothing unusual, but very frustrating nonetheless.


I noticed 2 times, about 22 - 24 minutes into the episode, lasted less than a minute, but during a critical scene, and again about 38 - 40 minutes in. These were the only 2 breakups I had on last week's episode. Far better than back in February, but should be perfect. This is the only local OTA station I have these kinds of issues on. I applaud KOMO for the strides they've made so far, now lets get this last 5%. =)

...problems in LOST...

We were seeing that too, as well as in Alias.

Now, I know we're in the space/time continum warp (tm), (Which just goes to show the plotters aren't always right ;) ) but believe it or not, we have a new mast and antenna on the lake and we get everything almost all of the time. Go figure.

(For those that care, the 4228 was getting overloaded, believe it or not. New antenna handles MP better, but less gain and THAT was the problem)

The only problems we have is the freeze/hiccup in KOMO national feeds and it's never pixellation, which is a serious clue to transmitted signal lost, but full frame hiccup.

This is where Jack Benny puts his hand to his face and says "Oh Don..."

We need some more magic dust or magic beans or something here. I too am seeing the freezes and the season finale of LOST is tonight!

Swordfish :confused: What happened to 11? It was playing for awhile and then poof, gone! Unbelieveable...is it just me? I'm getting no signal whatsovever now.

Channel 22-1

Has it changed to 25-1 for everyone?

.....

...Radio Shack yagi: 15-2160. RS is pretty good about returns so give it a shot.

Any info on gain and beamwidth?
Thanks

Channel 22-1

Has it changed to 25-1 for everyone?

yes...my STB will only tune to 25, not 22.

And...it's ridiculously hot in my place right now :(

Any info on gain and beamwidth?
Thanks
RS does not publish detailed specs that I can find. One review stated that it has 1-3 dB less gain than the similar CM 4308 yagi. Nothing specific about beamwidth but I would guess similar to 4308 or slightly wider. SO, does anyone have the plot data for the 4308?

yes...my STB will only tune to 25, not 22.

And...it's ridiculously hot in my place right now :(

25 on mine also. They probably have a problem with the PSIP data encoding or something so the channel mapping feature of the receiver does not know what the analog counterpart channel is. I see this every once in a while on other stations too.

Ridiculously hot? Not in my living room... ahhhhhh
I think AC is the greatest invention EVER.

Anyone getting crackling sound on KIRO7-DT? :(

Only when I'm watching The Fireplace Show...

Anyone getting crackling sound on KIRO7-DT? :(

I was getting is yesterday. It was there OTA and Comcast QAM.

...

...... No go on UPN11 and WB22 though.

Is there anything else worth trying before getting an outdoor antenna?

You might want to try and see if you can pick up reflected signals off tall buildings. If there is two or three bars on the signal strength indicator, you could try amplifying with an amplifier.

I was getting is yesterday. It was there OTA and Comcast QAM.

I've had it for a few days, and I still have it today. It's the same for both my Samsung Sirt and my pci HDTV tuner card... Really starting to annoy me too. I wonder what this crackling sound problem is and who is getting it? So far only two of us have confirmed the problem. Can you guys check your 7-1 please? Thx.

You might want to try and see if you can pick up reflected signals off tall buildings. If there is two or three bars on the signal strength indicator, you could try amplifying with an amplifier.
Reflections: yes
Amplifier: no

The consensus on the antenna thread and elsewhere is that using an amplifier when closer than 30 miles often hinders more than it helps. It will amplify the existing noise and multipath as well as the desired signal. This often causes problems for receiver front-ends, including overload. On top of that, every amplifier adds its own noise to the mix. They should only be a last resort.

Reflections: yes
Amplifier: no

The consensus on the antenna thread and elsewhere is that using an amplifier when closer than 30 miles often hinders more than it helps. It will amplify the existing noise and multipath as well as the desired signal. This often causes problems for receiver front-ends, including overload. On top of that, every amplifier adds its own noise to the mix. They should only be a last resort.

Perhaps I'm the exception to the rule. Until I added an amplifier, I was having real trouble locking on several stations such as KSTW, KCPQ and KONG. I added a Channel Master amp to my attic mounted antenna and things were instantly better. I'm in Fairwood which isn't more than 20 miles from the Seattle towers.

I've had it for a few days, and I still have it today. It's the same for both my Samsung Sirt and my pci HDTV tuner card... Really starting to annoy me too. I wonder what this crackling sound problem is and who is getting it? So far only two of us have confirmed the problem. Can you guys check your 7-1 please? Thx.

Me too. Constant crackling sound here watching CSI using Silver Sensor and Comcast QAM.

Is anyone not having audio problems with 7-1? :confused:

Reflections: yes
Amplifier: no

The consensus on the antenna thread and elsewhere is that using an amplifier when closer than 30 miles often hinders more than it helps. It will amplify the existing noise and multipath as well as the desired signal. This often causes problems for receiver front-ends, including overload. On top of that, every amplifier adds its own noise to the mix. They should only be a last resort.

Quarque, you are right. But not all real life conditions fit the theory completely. There are too many variations in real life situations to fit a single theory and/or consensus. So ... until it is tested, one can never know for sure. One can use multiple directional antennas with A/B/C switching and selective amplification by pass band or by antenna.

That person is asking if there are possibilities, not impossibilities.

There is an interesting thread at dbs.talk regarding the 8vsb port on the dish 942. Apparently the 942 outputs 12v 150 ma dc (just like the back of the box states it does). This might help explain some of the problems people have been having with their 942 and ota. Other Dish receivers don't do this. Apparently Dish had plans that they later scrapped. A simple solution is the Radio Shack DC block (15-1259). I don't have the 942 yet (should have one in a day or two) so I can't speak firsthand about if the block improves signal reception. I'd imagine there would be many variables depending on individual set ups. In some cases if the specs of your particular amp match the 12v 150ma dc you could probably just power from the 942 8vsb port. In other cases I would guess you would be better off using the dc block. I have to wonder if the attenuator fix that many have employed would be better addressed with the dc block. Even if the attenuator is still useful, I'd think it would be wise to put the dc block at the 8vsb port because the steady volts going to the attenuator are probably not good for it.

So THREE of us have crackling sound from 7-1. Can you other Seattle area ppls please chime in here! What the hell is wrong with KIRO DT sound? It's been like this for days on my end.

edit: I just checked, sound crackling seems to be gone.

So THREE of us have crackling sound from 7-1. Can you other Seattle area ppls please chime in here! What the hell is wrong with KIRO DT sound? It's been like this for days on my end.

edit: I just checked, sound crackling seems to be gone.

I heard it too. Sounded to me like it was coming from the front center channel. I went to other channels to verify that I didn't have a loose connection. When I came back approx 30 min later the crackling was gone.

Crystal clear audio coming in from 7-1. Let's hope it stays that way! :D

This is where Jack Benny puts his hand to his face and says "Oh Don..."

We need some more magic dust or magic beans or something here. I too am seeing the freezes and the season finale of LOST is tonight!

Sorry for the delay...I was away from the computer for a few days, then I wanted to talk to the guys at KOMO to see what progress has been made. I too saw the freezes and was especially surprised (and disturbed) by the length of time the picture was frozen at one point in the final episode of Lost.

Here is what I know about it:

KOMO has replaced the LNBs with new better performing units, new transmission line was installed, bandpass filters installed, new digital receiver installed...each incrementally improving the freeze problem. Until last week, that is. I just don't have an answer as to what happened then.

There is a change coming that should help. ABC is building an entirely new digital satellite program distribution system that should be online soon. KOMO has installed a whole rack full of ABC reception equipment and it is standing by and ready to go. However, some other network stations are not that far along. The entire system has to be ready before the switchover is made.

As an aside, the basketball playoffs on ABC provide an opportunity to see the difference in motion artifacts between 1080i and 720p. It is particularly evident if you have a native 720p display.

Pay close attention the lacy detail of the net as the camera pans. With all the motion of the players, fans and camera panning, the test of the pudding is how well the details in the net are rendered. The fine details turn into a blur much quicker with 1080i camera and display than with a 720p camera and display. It was just such a demonstration that convinced me that 720p was the way to go. I still believe it was the right choice.

Don

I'm in North Seattle, west of I-5 right up near Northgate Mall, but I'm on perfectly flat land with trees taller than my house in almost all directions except to the west. What I'm curious about is whether I can have any expectation of picking up a reasonable signal OTA.

I am assuming now that I would almost absolutely have to mount the antenna outside if I hope to get decent results.

KOMO has replaced the LNBs with new better performing units, new transmission line was installed, bandpass filters installed, new digital receiver installed...each incrementally improving the freeze problem. Until last week, that is. I just don't have an answer as to what happened then.

There is a change coming that should help. ABC is building an entirely new digital satellite program distribution system that should be online soon. KOMO has installed a whole rack full of ABC reception equipment and it is standing by and ready to go. However, some other network stations are not that far along. The entire system has to be ready before the switchover is made.

Don

Don,

KOMO is the one station that I've had the most trouble with. I thought I had it fixed until just a few days before the last LOST episode. I had written it off as due to the heavy rains and storms. But I've had no success with KOMO since that time. Today even with the heavy storms and lightening I am able to pull in all other Seattle stations without breakups or loss of signal. Are you attributing this to maintenance/upgrades? I for one would be very happy to hear that something is being done that may improve reception near term and greatful that someone over there is aware of the problem and concerned about it.

Periodic clicking audio on PBS-HD. Several fast clicks every few seconds or so. Anyone else? :(

Perhaps I'm the exception to the rule. Until I added an amplifier, I was having real trouble locking on several stations such as KSTW, KCPQ and KONG. I added a Channel Master amp to my attic mounted antenna and things were instantly better. I'm in Fairwood which isn't more than 20 miles from the Seattle towers.

Attics are another can of worms. You start out with less signal, sometimes a lot less. So an amplifier can help. All I was saying is that too many people waste money on amplifiers when they really need something else, such as a different antenna or location. It does not hurt to experiment, only a slight bruising around the wallet area.

I'm in North Seattle, west of I-5 right up near Northgate Mall, but I'm on perfectly flat land with trees taller than my house in almost all directions except to the west. What I'm curious about is whether I can have any expectation of picking up a reasonable signal OTA.

I am assuming now that I would almost absolutely have to mount the antenna outside if I hope to get decent results.
Never say "absolutlely". You'd be surprised at how many people use a Silver Sensor antenna indoors in similar situations. So the question is: what will be the best use of your time and money? An outside antenna is usually better than inside. Higher is usually better than lower. "Real" antennas are usually better than "high-tech trick" units. A 4-bay bowtie like the CM 4221 should work well for you just about anywhere. Ch 13 is coming in about 45 degrees off-axis from the downtown towers but it is strong and very high up. It frequently comes in without having to rotate the antenna. Also, most Radio Shacks stock a small, cheap yagi 15-2160 that is worth trying as well.

Quarque, you are right. But not all real life conditions fit the theory completely. There are too many variations in real life situations to fit a single theory and/or consensus. So ... until it is tested, one can never know for sure. One can use multiple directional antennas with A/B/C switching and selective amplification by pass band or by antenna.

That person is asking if there are possibilities, not impossibilities.
No disagreement about real world here. I was just saying that an amplifier would not be MY first choice for reception problems at that distance. Especially considering that a large hill is blocking the CH towers. At best, there will be some multipath and more likely, severe multipath. I would first exhaust antenna location and aiming possibilities.

Don,

KOMO is the one station that I've had the most trouble with. I thought I had it fixed until just a few days before the last LOST episode. I had written it off as due to the heavy rains and storms. But I've had no success with KOMO since that time. Today even with the heavy storms and lightening I am able to pull in all other Seattle stations without breakups or loss of signal. Are you attributing this to maintenance/upgrades? I for one would be very happy to hear that something is being done that may improve reception near term and greatful that someone over there is aware of the problem and concerned about it.


Hi Chuck -

No, if you are having significant reception issues other than an occasional picture/sound freeze of a second or less during primetime HDTV programming, you are most likely dealing with multipath. All KOMO-DT programming that is not network HDTV has been perfect...no hits...no freezes...as I see it here and as received at the studio.

The ABC network HDTV programming continues to experience several quick (one second or less) freezes during an hourlong program. The exception that I noted was during the final 'Lost' episode, 15-20 minutes in, when the picture froze for about a minute. None of the KOMO guys could explain what may have caused it.

We have felt at times in the past that there was interference into the satellite receiver. The timing pattern seemed to fit interference from airborne radar. Bandpass filters seemed to help until this last week or so.

The bottom line is...you can count on local KOMO programs such as KOMO4 News being transmitted perfectly. If you are finding otherwise, look for a signal path problem.

Please let me know what you find.

I can assure you that the KOMO techs are doing everything they can to solve the network freeze problem.

Don

Hi Chuck -

No, if you are having significant reception issues other than an occasional picture/sound freeze of a second or less during primetime HDTV programming, you are most likely dealing with multipath. All KOMO-DT programming that is not network HDTV has been perfect...no hits...no freezes...as I see it here and as received at the studio.

The ABC network HDTV programming continues to experience several quick (one second or less) freezes during an hourlong program. The exception that I noted was during the final 'Lost' episode, 15-20 minutes in, when the picture froze for about a minute. None of the KOMO guys could explain what may have caused it.

We have felt at times in the past that there was interference into the satellite receiver. The timing pattern seemed to fit interference from airborne radar. Bandpass filters seemed to help until this last week or so.

The bottom line is...you can count on local KOMO programs such as KOMO4 News being transmitted perfectly. If you are finding otherwise, look for a signal path problem.

Please let me know what you find.

I can assure you that the KOMO techs are doing everything they can to solve the network freeze problem.

Don

Thanks for replying. My KOMO signal has been bad regardless if local or network feed. On my dish 921 receiver last night all channels coming in with signal strength topping 100 (even pax and a bunch of apparently unused channels). Komo just won't hold. I practically had a second career tweaking the cm4248 (and
its various assorted predecessors) and am not going to start that all over again. Will be getting a Dish 942 receiver in the next few days. Maybe a different tuner will make a difference. (Other people get KOMO fine, so I know it's just unfortunate location and have to chalk it up to the pitfalls of OTA.)

Happy birthday Dave!

P.S. I concur with Don on 4.

Happy birthday Dave!

P.S. I concur with Don on 4.

Thanks, it IS my birthday today (June 1st). Were you referring to me? Or does another Dave in this thread have a birthday today?

Every birthday is another milestone in my quest to reach old age, so I am not bothered by being another year older, yet.

Thanks, it IS my birthday today (June 1st). Were you referring to me? Or does another Dave in this thread have a birthday today?

Every birthday is another milestone in my quest to reach old age, so I am not bothered by being another year older, yet.Yes, your name popped right up on AVS front page, hard to miss. I am not too keen on my own either yet a milestone is a milestone...

Periodic clicking audio on PBS-HD. Several fast clicks every few seconds or so. Anyone else? :(


got that too! Comes and goes. Might be a signal strengh issue on our ends, not sure.

Hi Chuck -

No, if you are having significant reception issues other than an occasional picture/sound freeze of a second or less during primetime HDTV programming, you are most likely dealing with multipath. All KOMO-DT programming that is not network HDTV has been perfect...no hits...no freezes...as I see it here and as received at the studio.

The ABC network HDTV programming continues to experience several quick (one second or less) freezes during an hourlong program. The exception that I noted was during the final 'Lost' episode, 15-20 minutes in, when the picture froze for about a minute. None of the KOMO guys could explain what may have caused it.

We have felt at times in the past that there was interference into the satellite receiver. The timing pattern seemed to fit interference from airborne radar. Bandpass filters seemed to help until this last week or so.

The bottom line is...you can count on local KOMO programs such as KOMO4 News being transmitted perfectly. If you are finding otherwise, look for a signal path problem.

Please let me know what you find.

I can assure you that the KOMO techs are doing everything they can to solve the network freeze problem.

Don


Don, this is exactly how my experience has been. Local KOMO HD is flawless, and I mean flawless :) Primetime gets iffy although it is MUCH better this year than last year. All in all, the various freezes and stutters have decreased over time, and hopefully will continue to decrease more and more.
On a different note: I was wondering if you have any stats on the number of local affiliates nationwide that do local news in HD like KOMO does? I know no Bay Area stations do, and I think no L.A. stations do either. KOMO-DT seems to be one of the very few out there. Any comments? Thanks.

Don, this is exactly how my experience has been. Local KOMO HD is flawless, and I mean flawless :) Primetime gets iffy although it is MUCH better this year than last year. All in all, the various freezes and stutters have decreased over time, and hopefully will continue to decrease more and more.
On a different note: I was wondering if you have any stats on the number of local affiliates nationwide that do local news in HD like KOMO does? I know no Bay Area stations do, and I think no L.A. stations do either. KOMO-DT seems to be one of the very few out there. Any comments? Thanks.

KOMO's all-new digital facility is now almost five years old. I don't recall the exact date that the HD news studio was put on line. The studio HD cameras are Sonys, as are the field cameras. However, the field cameras are 16x9 digital SD. All editing is done in the digital domain so the video does not have NTSC artifacts. As much as anything, the color rendition is much better without NTSC's limitations. They look darn good to me.

As to other stations, KING began using their HD studio shortly after we began. WRAL in Raleigh NC has been doing HD news for some time now, and I recently heard that WJLA in Washington DC joined the club. I believe that a station in Salt Lake City (maybe it was Denver) was doing HD as well. This is strictly from my memory and you know what happens when you retire.

Don

KOMO's all-new digital facility is now almost five years old. I don't recall the exact date that the HD news studio was put on line. The studio HD cameras are Sonys, as are the field cameras. However, the field cameras are 16x9 digital SD. All editing is done in the digital domain so the video does not have NTSC artifacts. As much as anything, the color rendition is much better without NTSC's limitations. They look darn good to me.

As to other stations, KING began using their HD studio shortly after we began. WRAL in Raleigh NC has been doing HD news for some time now, and I recently heard that WJLA in Washington DC joined the club. I believe that a station in Salt Lake City (maybe it was Denver) was doing HD as well. This is strictly from my memory and you know what happens when you retire.

Don

I just tuned into the KOMO HD channel to refresh my memory, and I must admit the studio shots are quite amazing. Even the field shots were pretty good, but the studio... :cool:

My roof-top HD antenna (don't know the exact brand) was professionally installed (outside, on my chimney) a while ago, and the installers tested out the installation and ensured that I could get "all" the local channels.

I couldn't verify this until recently, when I finally got around to getting a HD Tivo (the price dropped). However, I can't seem to tune in CBS (7-1) or Fox (13-1, 13-2). I know Fox is in a different direction, so it's possible I can't "see it" with the single antenna, but I thought CBS was on the same antenna as ABC and NBC?

Going to the OTA signal strength metter shows between 80 and 95% signal strength for the channels that do tune in: 4-1 (ABC), 5-1 (NBC), 5-2, 9-1 & 9-5 (PBS) 11-1 (UPN), 16-1 (Kong), 22-1, 22-2 (WB)

I also don't get any of the other channels above 22, but I don't really care about those (like PAX and what-not).

I'm on North/East Capitol Hill, on 21st Ave E, about a mile from the Capitol Hill antennas and 3 miles from the Queen Anne antennas. Any thoughts/ideas?

FYI - Here are the results of my OTA signal-strength test using my HDTivo (DirecTV HR10-250)

Freq # Call Network Signal Range
25 22-1 KTWB-DT WB 70-76
31 16-1 Kong-DT IND 92-96
36 11-1 KSTW-DT UPN 92-95
38 4-1 Komo-DT ABC 92-95
41 9-1 KCTS-DT PBS 78-83
48 5-1 King-DT NBC 80-85
18 13-1 KCPQ-DT FOX 0-25
39 7-1 Kiro-DT CBS 0-71


As you can see, all come in well except Fox and CBS. CBS bounces around a ton (multipath?) and occasionally comes in, and Fox never comes in.

As to other stations, KING began using their HD studio shortly after we began. WRAL in Raleigh NC has been doing HD news for some time now, and I recently heard that WJLA in Washington DC joined the club. I believe that a station in Salt Lake City (maybe it was Denver) was doing HD as well. This is strictly from my memory and you know what happens when you retire.

Don[/QUOTE]

The station in DC is WUSA. They started about a month ago. Denver's KUSA has had HD local news for a couple of years. They use HD cameras for the entire newscast, including remotes, and also have an HD camera in their traffic helicopter. I also believe a station in Cleveland, maybe WEWS, and a station in Detroit also do HD local news.

FYI - Here are the results of my OTA signal-strength test using my HDTivo (DirecTV HR10-250)

Freq # Call Network Signal Range
25 22-1 KTWB-DT WB 70-76
31 16-1 Kong-DT IND 92-96
36 11-1 KSTW-DT UPN 92-95
38 4-1 Komo-DT ABC 92-95
41 9-1 KCTS-DT PBS 78-83
48 5-1 King-DT NBC 80-85
18 13-1 KCPQ-DT FOX 0-25
39 7-1 Kiro-DT CBS 0-71


As you can see, all come in well except Fox and CBS. CBS bounces around a ton (multipath?) and occasionally comes in, and Fox never comes in.

j - check your PM. I replied before I saw all of your recent posts. The bouncing on 7 & 13 is an indication of multipath. Try the attenuator mentioned in the PM first. If that doesn't do anything you can try various antenna locations or other antennas OR hire an installer that will actually work with you on getting reception.
The towers for 4,5,6,7 on QA are just north of due west and 13 is just south of due west. So there is no problem covering the 20-degree spread. Aim due west and you're covered. The CH towers are way off axis but the signal is so hot there you could use a paper clip for an antenna.

P.S. what does your antenna look like? Have any pics?

The bouncing on 7 & 13 is an indication of multipath. Try the attenuator mentioned in the PM first. If that doesn't do anything you can try various antenna locations or other antennas OR hire an installer that will actually work with you on getting reception.
Thanks - Excuse my technical ignorance - but multipath seems to make sense as an excuse for my inability to pick up 7 (whose signal bounces as high as 70), but the signal for 13 never gets above 30... Is that indicative of another issue?

The towers for 4,5,6,7 on QA are just north of due west and 13 is just south of due west. So there is no problem covering the 20-degree spread. Aim due west and you're covered. The CH towers are way off axis but the signal is so hot there you could use a paper clip for an antenna.
Yes, I can actually see the CH towers looking south from my yard (I can feel the radiation sometimes too, jk). The antenna is aimed pretty much at the QA towers (from what I can tell from the ground - as I mentioned, I didn't install it). I suppose a minor aiming to improve the signal for Fox might be necessary.

P.S. what does your antenna look like? Have any pics?

I'll work on getting a picture of it (kind of hard to see it from the ground). From what I can see, it's a horizontal piece of metal about 2' long, with some small vertical bars every couple of inches. Not very large, especially compared to a couple of the bigger HD antennas in my neighborhood (I know two other people have HD roof-top antennas).

I'll probably just go out and pick up the attenuator tomorrow. Seems like a cheap enough fix to try.

Edited to Add: I adjusted the amplification on my 5x8 Spaun HDTV/satellite multiswitch (didn't even know my multiswitch had a knob for that) and got channel 7 (CBS) working. Fox is still not working.

Thanks - Excuse my technical ignorance - but multipath seems to make sense as an excuse for my inability to pick up 7 (whose signal bounces as high as 70), but the signal for 13 never gets above 30... Is that indicative of another issue?


Yes, I can actually see the CH towers looking south from my yard (I can feel the radiation sometimes too, jk). The antenna is aimed pretty much at the QA towers (from what I can tell from the ground - as I mentioned, I didn't install it). I suppose a minor aiming to improve the signal for Fox might be necessary.



I'll work on getting a picture of it (kind of hard to see it from the ground). From what I can see, it's a horizontal piece of metal about 2' long, with some small vertical bars every couple of inches. Not very large, especially compared to a couple of the bigger HD antennas in my neighborhood (I know two other people have HD roof-top antennas).

I'll probably just go out and pick up the attenuator tomorrow. Seems like a cheap enough fix to try.

Edited to Add: I adjusted the amplification on my 5x8 Spaun HDTV/satellite multiswitch (didn't even know my multiswitch had a knob for that) and got channel 7 (CBS) working. Fox is still not working.

The numbers on the receiver are not 'signal level' - they are more a measure of 'signal quality'. A value of '30' can result from a weak signal OR a strong signal with lots of reflections.

Since I can't receive any of the Seattle stations OTA, I have to rely on my local cableco (Wave) to receive the locals in HD. For the last several days, I'm not receiving KOMO in HD at all (SD signal only). Wave claims that it's a problem @ KOMO & that it's being worked on (involves replacing a defective part @ KOMO per Wave). I haven't seen a single post about this. Is Wave the only ones having this problem?

So...there is a telethon on KOMO all night tonight. Apparently they will show it noon on Sunday :( instead. The question I have is will it be 1.33:1 HD like everyone else is getting tonight?

EDIT: KOMO's website has it listed as identical to tonight's broadcast in HD. Here's hoping that that's accurate. I want to record Bambi in HD!

Since I can't receive any of the Seattle stations OTA, I have to rely on my local cableco (Wave) to receive the locals in HD. For the last several days, I'm not receiving KOMO in HD at all (SD signal only). Wave claims that it's a problem @ KOMO & that it's being worked on (involves replacing a defective part @ KOMO per Wave). I haven't seen a single post about this. Is Wave the only ones having this problem?


KOMO's 720p signal is fine, the cable company is BSing you.

The numbers on the receiver are not 'signal level' - they are more a measure of 'signal quality'. A value of '30' can result from a weak signal OR a strong signal with lots of reflections.

Sure enough, plug in the adjustable attenuator and a coupler, dialed it down about half-way and Fox (13-1 and 13-2) is coming nice and clean at around 60. Doesn't seem to have harmed the signal level of any of the other channels in my cursory examination.

I plan on fiddling with the attenuator + multiswitch amplifier later to see if I can't bump that "signal quality" up 5-10 points.

Thanks for the advice/help. Gotta love the AVS Forum - I always get the most sound advice here.

KOMO's 720p signal is fine, the cable company is BSing you.

Not necessarilly. Most likely WAVE doesn't get the signal OTA, so there can in fact be a problem with their link to KOMO's signal.

Sure enough, plug in the adjustable attenuator and a coupler, dialed it down about half-way and Fox (13-1 and 13-2) is coming nice and clean at around 60. Doesn't seem to have harmed the signal level of any of the other channels in my cursory examination.

I plan on fiddling with the attenuator + multiswitch amplifier later to see if I can't bump that "signal quality" up 5-10 points.

Thanks for the advice/help. Gotta love the AVS Forum - I always get the most sound advice here.
j - that's great news. Sometimes the simplest tools work the best. Don't worry so much about getting every last point on the meter. It is more important that it be *steady* than as high as possible. That seems to produce the least amount of dropouts. So a steady 60 is better than a wobbly 70.

Not that I watch PAX at all, but I just noticed there are now 4 subchannels (33-1,2,3,4). I see there is a carrier on 2,3,4 but no picture. Also, their signal must have been boosted because it's 90 degrees off-axis for me and I have 2 more bars on the sammy T150 meter.

My prediction of 2 years ago that we would see a plethora of SD subchannels and fewer high-bandwidth HD seems to be coming true. :(

Kudos to KOMO TV (ABC Seattle) for their continuing commitment to HDTV. They are doing their part of the "Children's Miracle Network" Telethon in HDTV.

I believe KOMO has been doing news in HD since 1999.

(Maybe some time in my lifetime stations in Los Angeles will start doing HD news.)

j - that's great news. Sometimes the simplest tools work the best. Don't worry so much about getting every last point on the meter. It is more important that it be *steady* than as high as possible. That seems to produce the least amount of dropouts. So a steady 60 is better than a wobbly 70.

Spoke a little too soon. Was getting 7 fine from last night through this morning, and 13 came in this morning solid for several minutes after installing the attenuator. Came home tonight and neither are coming in. That's really weird. Fiddled with both the attenuator and amplifier to no avail.

Any thoughts? Throw in another attenuator? Shake salt over my shoulder?

Good news and not-so-good news:

I checked the First Round Channel Elections filed for our locals and found they applied for their FINAL DTV Channel as follows:

KOMO-DT 38 (YEAH)
KING-DT 48 (YEAH)
KIRO-DT 39 (YEAH)
KCTS-DT 9 (BOO!)
KTWB-DT 25 (YEAH)
KCPQ-DT 13 (BOO!)
KONG-DT 31 (YEAH)
KSTW-DT 11 (BOO!)
KWPX-DT 33 (YEAH)

As you can see, 9,11,13 plan to go back to their VHF channels. This *may* mean those of us with UHF-only antennas will need another round of antenna fiddling and/or replacement for OTA. Most UHF antennas will pick up high-VHF channels (7-13) to some extent. You won't know for sure about your own setup until the Big Switch.

I suppose you can register your thoughts with the stations on this but it may be too late since the applications were filed a few months ago and will most likely be accepted. I'm glad that the major networks stayed with UHF and I don't watch 9,11,13 nearly as much as 4,5,7.

Spoke a little too soon. Was getting 7 fine from last night through this morning, and 13 came in this morning solid for several minutes after installing the attenuator. Came home tonight and neither are coming in. That's really weird. Fiddled with both the attenuator and amplifier to no avail.

Any thoughts? Throw in another attenuator? Shake salt over my shoulder?

j - bummer! Such is the life of us OTA people. Not quite as advertised in the Popular Science article I read 20 years ago that stated digital reception would end ALL current problems of ghosting and snow in analog reception. Gee, no mention of another set of problems for digital reception!!

Another attenuator is called for only if you still had decent signal quality when the first one was set at MAX attenuation. If that was not the case, it is time to start playing with antenna aiming & location. And then (ugh) replacement. Your current unit may not be directional enough.

Salt does not seem to work as well as standing on your head and squawking like a chicken.

P.S. as an experiment, you could try running your coax directly from the antenna to the receiver (with attenuator(s) of course) to bypass all the other stuff.

I believe KOMO has been doing news in HD since 1999.

(Maybe some time in my lifetime stations in Los Angeles will start doing HD news.)

Naw, they don't want to have you seeing the plastic surgery on the news anchors in LA close up. :)

I did a rescan and got the empty PAX channels a couple of weeks ago. My Samsung 165 crashes on their 2-4 subchanels with a reboot. Havent tried it recently tho...

Agreed .... their locally produced HiDef stuff is awesome. If only the could solve their ongoing problems with audio/video "freezes" during their evening network feeds, though.

the 720p weather graphics rule !!!

they also have 480p WS field cameras

j - bummer! Such is the life of us OTA people. Not quite as advertised in the Popular Science article I read 20 years ago that stated digital reception would end ALL current problems of ghosting and snow in analog reception. Gee, no mention of another set of problems for digital reception!!

... deleted ...

Salt does not seem to work as well as standing on your head and squawking like a chicken.


What does work is going to bed. Now 13 is coming in again (but 7 is dropping out every 10 seconds or so). I removed the attenuator, just because it didn't seem to be helping, and now 13 is coming in at around 70, and 7 comes in and out. There's still more bouncing (between about 60 and 75) for 13 than on the other channels, which are all rock solid.

My guess is that if I put the attenuator back in, 7 and 13 would come in, at least for the next few hours. So I'm guessing that some combination of attenuator, amplification and antenna repositioning will lead to that magic place where all the TV channels I care about come in.

So weird. It's like my antenna gets "tired" at the end of the day :)

I'll just keep an eye on it to see what the behavior is like, but I sure would prefer it if 7 and 13 just came in and stayed in. Gotta have my N3MBERS and House in HD.

j - there has been a lot of theoretical discussion on AVS and elsewhere about the day/night reception phenomenon. It is real, for some people. The best explananation I've seen has to do with the atmosphere and reflections off of various layers. During the day the sun stirs things up a lot so there are few "smooth" layer boundaries that are conducive to reflections. It still appears you have numerous reflections that are bothering the receiver for 7 & 13. These get swamped out at night by the massive reflection off the atmosphere. You can either spend some time trying different antenna locations or spend some money on different antennas. But then, time = money, doesn't it?

Isn't it NUMB3RS? :D

NUMBERS, N#MBERS, NUMB3RZ, whatever. Good show. I'm more concerned about House on 13. That's one of my new favorite shows. I have a soft spot for shows where the "pain in the ass" is always right (ask my wife if you want to know why).

I think moving the antenna around a little bit (other side of the chimney, raise it up 1 ft, whatever) is worth trying. I don't think that line-of-sight isn't an issue, but some combination of positioning and attenuation will probably solve the problem. If not, I can try a more directional antenna, or just have my pet monkey stand up there and block the multipath interference ;)

Naw, they don't want to have you seeing the plastic surgery on the news anchors in LA close up. :)

Trust me, the News Anchorettes on KOMO aren't exactly eye candy.

Now KING or Q13 are a different story. :)

Trust me, the News Anchorettes on KOMO aren't exactly eye candy.

Now KING or Q13 are a different story. :)

Mary Nam looks nice in HD, but you're right about most of the rest. I'd never really thought about it. It was obvious that KCPQ employed almost exclusively on the basis of appearance, but KOMO doesn't seem to play that game.

Mary Nam looks nice in HD, but you're right about most of the rest. I'd never really thought about it. It was obvious that KCPQ employed almost exclusively on the basis of appearance, but KOMO doesn't seem to play that game.

It's all about Carolyn Douglas on King5. She looks great in HD. Flawless complextion.

For the guys, I think HD does the most justice to Steve Pool. You can really see how perfect his hair is in HD, lol.

Just noticed last night for the first time I am able to pick up Kong. Have they boosted their signal?

It's all about Carolyn Douglas on King5. She looks great in HD. Flawless complextion. . . ..
Agreed. She's just well put together period. Attractive, interesting voice, and nice smile. Plus she seems relaxed at what she's doing.

For Don Wilkinson (KOMO)

If you're still perusing this forum, can you validate the fact that there is a problem with KOMOs feed to Wave (over here in the Kitsap Co. area)? The HD signal has been out for over a week. Thanks.


Since I can't receive any of the Seattle stations OTA, I have to rely on my local cableco (Wave) to receive the locals in HD. For the last several days, I'm not receiving KOMO in HD at all (SD signal only). Wave claims that it's a problem @ KOMO & that it's being worked on (involves replacing a defective part @ KOMO per Wave). I haven't seen a single post about this. Is Wave the only ones having this problem?

Good news and not-so-good news:

I checked the First Round Channel Elections filed for our locals and found they applied for their FINAL DTV Channel as follows:

KOMO-DT 38 (YEAH)
KING-DT 48 (YEAH)
KIRO-DT 39 (YEAH)
KCTS-DT 9 (BOO!)
KTWB-DT 25 (YEAH)
KCPQ-DT 13 (BOO!)
KONG-DT 31 (YEAH)
KSTW-DT 11 (BOO!)
KWPX-DT 33 (YEAH)

As you can see, 9,11,13 plan to go back to their VHF channels. This *may* mean those of us with UHF-only antennas will need another round of antenna fiddling and/or replacement for OTA. Most UHF antennas will pick up high-VHF channels (7-13) to some extent. You won't know for sure about your own setup until the Big Switch.

I suppose you can register your thoughts with the stations on this but it may be too late since the applications were filed a few months ago and will most likely be accepted. I'm glad that the major networks stayed with UHF and I don't watch 9,11,13 nearly as much as 4,5,7.

Any information on when this will happen? Any chance any of them might mirror a UHF signal?

Any information on when this will happen? Any chance any of them might mirror a UHF signal?I cannot see a reason they would mirror one, that is a huge waste of resources. But yes, it is a bummer. I wonder those retractable antennas that come with some TV would work? They do a decent job with analog. Definitely cannot fit a full fledged VHF up in my attic.

I cannot see a reason they would mirror one, that is a huge waste of resources. But yes, it is a bummer. I wonder those retractable antennas that come with some TV would work? They do a decent job with analog. Definitely cannot fit a full fledged VHF up in my attic.

Fortunately it's the just the "high VHF band" channels we'll have to worry about (Channel 9-13). Those antennas would be smaller than a "full band" VHF antenna. And, of course, the VHF channels tend to propogate better than UHF.

I suppose it's understandable that some stations would want to keep their VHF assignments since it saves them money in transmitter power, but it will cause them hassles when they turn off their UHF DTV channels and people have to change their OTA antennas.

Larry,

Would it be possible for you to check the intersection of Juanita-Woodinville Way NE and NE 149th St.? This is right on the line between Kirkland and Bothell. We are looking at a house in that area and i'm hoping the reception will be better then my experiance in Issaquah.

Thanks.

Fortunately it's the just the "high VHF band" channels we'll have to worry about (Channel 9-13). ...

Most UHF antennas will do OK on 9-13. The 4228 for example has 8-9 dB gain in that frequency range. So unless you are beyond 30 miles I wouldn't start fretting, just yet.

Larry,

Would it be possible for you to check the intersection of Juanita-Woodinville Way NE and NE 149th St.? This is right on the line between Kirkland and Bothell. We are looking at a house in that area and i'm hoping the reception will be better then my experiance in Issaquah.

Thanks.

That area is at about 200 feet and 2 miles SW is a 450 foot hill that falls right on the LOS to the property. A mast on a 2-story house should clear the hill. But even at lower elevation you might do OK with a decent antenna. How thick are the trees around the property in question?

Any information on when this will happen? Any chance any of them might mirror a UHF signal?
Uhhhhhh..... 2007???? Make your own guess.
No mirrors or smoke likely, due to the expense.

That area is at about 200 feet and 2 miles SW is a 450 foot hill that falls right on the LOS to the property. A mast on a 2-story house should clear the hill. But even at lower elevation you might do OK with a decent antenna. How thick are the trees around the property in question?

There aren't any major trees within a block or so of the house in that direction. It sounds like I should be ok. Thanks for the information.

Since I can't receive any of the Seattle stations OTA, I have to rely on my local cableco (Wave) to receive the locals in HD. For the last several days, I'm not receiving KOMO in HD at all (SD signal only). Wave claims that it's a problem @ KOMO & that it's being worked on (involves replacing a defective part @ KOMO per Wave). I haven't seen a single post about this. Is Wave the only ones having this problem?

Channel 104 on Wave Broadband should be OK this evening. They found a problem in the receiver firmware. Replacement with an older version solved the problem

Don

FWIW, DirecTV seems to have lost KOMO for a period this evening, around 6:00 p.m. I didn't check it on my second receiver, but the other channels were coming in fine on my main receiver. I wonder if it's somehow related to the problem WAVE had?

I had more cracking sound coming from KIRO-DT yesterday...today it's gone. WTH? Please tell me this isnt my STB going...

I had more cracking sound coming from KIRO-DT yesterday...today it's gone. WTH? Please tell me this isnt my STB going...

Not likely. I recall a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with another channel but my STB is still working. Digital TV as we find, has a different set of annoyances than the conventional analog TV.

I use three indoor antennas with an A/B/C selector switch. Two "silver sensors" and a UHF antenna modified for indoor use. The closest TV transmitters are 11 miles to the southwest and southeast. There are some transmitters that are 26 miles south of my place. One transmitter is 90 miles north of my place.

I can receive DTV channels 4,5,7,9,11,13,16,20,22 ,24,33,45,and 51 - all very clear and reliable despite numerous 80-90 ft douglas firs 500 ft south of me and three 30 ft trees only 25 ft north of me. Well, I consider myself lucky.

I added a 13dB amplifier to stabilize CH 20 and 24. These are the two channels that have drop outs when the weather changes.

Addendum: I use an outdoor antenna in the living room because I have not figured out how to mount a "silver sensor" nicely on an ornamental post. In the above paragraphs, I have underlined those items I revised since my initial post.

I use three indoor antennas with an A/B/C selector switch. Two "silver sensors" and a UHF antenna modified for indoor use. The closest TV transmitters are 11 miles to the southwest and southeast. There are some transmitters that are 26 miles south of my place. One transmitter is 90 miles north of my place.

I can receive CH 4,5,7,9,11,13,20,24,33,45,and 51 - all very clear and reliable despite numerous 80-90 ft douglas firs 500 ft south of me and three 30 ft trees only 25 ft north of me. Well, I consider myself lucky.

I added a 13dB amplifier to stabilize CH 20 and 24.

Nice strategy. Are these the Analog channels you're receiving, or their Digital equivalents? What about channel 16 (KONG) and channel 22 (KTWB)?

Nice strategy. Are these the Analog channels you're receiving, or their Digital equivalents? What about channel 16 (KONG) and channel 22 (KTWB)?

Oops. I neglected to post channel 16 and 22. I will edit my original post. Yes, they are all DTV channels.

swwg - I have not had any luck getting Bellingham. Anyone else getting their DT channels?

swwg - I have not had any luck getting Bellingham. Anyone else getting their DT channels?

I was thinking to myself that I could not possibly receive the signal from Bellingham with a "silver sensor" since my place is behind a bunch of trees 30 ft high. Boy was I wrong. Out of curiosity, I pointed my "silver sensor" (Terk's version of similar design) at the direction shown by Antennaweb.org, and I was pleasantly surprised - the Terk box states, "... 36+ miles = poor reception". But channel 24-DT transmitter is 90 miles away.

Initially I thought, "could this be tropospheric ducting" but as weeks went by I am eventually convinced it is not.

For those who don't receive channels 24-DT and 45-DT, I am posting the following notes:

Note: Ch 24-DT is on ch. 19 UHF and transmits from Bellingham
Ch 45 is the Shop@Home channel.

Is anyone getting a really weak signal from 13-1 today? I'm unable to pick up the race. Usually I get Q13 with no problem...strange.

Does anyone pull in KVOS-DT (35) from Bellingham?

Is anyone getting a really weak signal from 13-1 today? I'm unable to pick up the race. Usually I get Q13 with no problem...strange.
yep. 13 is off the radar. probably forgot to feed the hamster...

Is anyone getting a really weak signal from 13-1 today? I'm unable to pick up the race. Usually I get Q13 with no problem...strange.

My receiver could not lock in on 13-1 last night and today.

yep. 13 is off the radar. probably forgot to feed the hamster...


My receiver could not lock in on 13-1 last night and today.

Heh, thanks all. Glad I'm not the only one. The hamster bit was good.

Been gone all day and evening.

Just tried 13-1 OTA. I get nothing right now.

Should have checked here first about 13-1 .....would have saved me another trip to the roof top!

Does anyone pull in KVOS-DT (35) from Bellingham?Hi from Canada, I live in the Vancouver BC area and I lurk here on AVS but I'm the moderator of the OTA Forum at digitalhomecanada and a few weeks ago I asked KVOS Bellingham's general manager and engineering staff about their progress towards DTV (they're running DTV on UHF 35 remapped to 12.1 in a lab bench sort of system for now) and received this reply:

Dear Jon,

KVOS is only able to operate in DT with a low power (1KW) transmitter
from Bellingham at the present time. Though some people in White Rock
may be able to receive our signal, I doubt that you would be able to
receive our signal in Delta on Ch.35 based on the location of our
antenna and the low power.

We hope to have our new transmitter and more importantly, our new
antenna operational by mid-Summer '06. With that new transmitter, we
will be providing a robust signal from the top of Mt. Constitution on
Channel 35. (We have not been able to make the full transition due to
tower location difficulties. We hope to have a new tower build by the
end of next Spring--but regulatory officials still have to grant
approvals for us to build the tower.)

We will eventually migrate back to Channel 12 DT once the cut off period
has been declared by the FCC sometime after 2006.

Should you have any further questions, I encourage you to contact John
Franz, our Chief Engineer.

Dave Reid
Pres/GM
KVOS TV
They're still on VHF 12 for now with a tiny peashooter DTV transmitter on 35.1

Jon - thanks for posting the KVOS info and welcome to AVS. I thought they were at low power but 1kW is really low. That would explain why I don't even see a blip on the signal meter. Keep us informed of anything going on in the northland, eh.

Jon - thanks for posting the KVOS info and welcome to AVS. I thought they were at low power but 1kW is really low. That would explain why I don't even see a blip on the signal meter. Keep us informed of anything going on in the northland, eh.Canada doesn't have a mandatory DTV cutover date like the FCC has set in the U.S. so our networks/stations are doing it on a market driven basis. Recently Vancouver's first DT station came up (CIVT-DT 33.1 remapped to 32.1) but its ERP is quite low at about 9Kw. Sometime in Sept. or Oct. we should have CBC Vancouver up in DT on 58.1 (probably remapped to 2.1) and they're expected to be at only 15Kw. Most of the other Vancouver and Victoria stations I've contacted are looking at 2006 launches.

I doubt that many U.S. DXers will have much luck picking up the Canadian DT stations from Vancouver and Victoria as they come up. The problem is that Canadian TV networks are owned by the same big companies who own the CATV and DBS businesses, so they're in no hurry to make their OTA stations powerful. Its a really centralized ownership problem, but its a historical situation because Canada is such a large country with such widespread population that CATV and DBS market penetration is absolutely huge compared with the U.S. marketplace.

The government asks OTA broadcasters to try to match their analog A profile when they cutover to DTV, but there's no really big push to get it right. Thus, the DT stations are coming up with pretty low power levels.

When will the freezing end on 4-1? Everynight during primetime, the same thing from KOMO, freezing. Three minutes into MIB II last night there were three major freezes, along with more throughout the program. Will it ever end?
I hate to be the guy bringing this up again and again as I really enjoy KOMO and think they do a great job, but will the KOMO engineers get this fixed or what? I mean a year later and still the same consistent freezing of the picture. Will it ever end? Ahhhh...I'm sorry, but it's frustrating especially when you've got friends over and you hype the HD, and then they are like, "what's wrong with your TV...." while everyone sits and misses 15 seconds of dialogue every so often during the course of 2 hours...
KOMO: as a viewer of your DT station, I say the biggest problem facing you currently is this.

When will the freezing end on 4-1?
...
KOMO: as a viewer of your DT station, I say the biggest problem facing you currently is this.
If you live west of Seattle, their biggest problem is they don't send a signal this way. I thought the stations were mandated to provide digital coverage at least equal to their analog signal. Why can all the other Seattle stations send signal in all directions, but KOMO only goes north, south, and east?

If you live west of Seattle, their biggest problem is they don't send a signal this way. I thought the stations were mandated to provide digital coverage at least equal to their analog signal. Why can all the other Seattle stations send signal in all directions, but KOMO only goes north, south, and east?

DrCrawn and Steve -

I can assure you that the picture freezes are driving the KOMO guys up the wall as well.

I was talking last week to a member of the executive board of the National Association of Broadcasters. I mentioned the freezes and he commented that it was the subject of converasation at one of the meetings. The consensus was that other ABC affiliates are seeing similar problems. Some, but not as many CBS affitiates were also complaining. This was enough to get my attention. I intend to look further into this.

The ABC HD programming is distributed by C-band satellite (approximately 4 GHz). Beginning July 1, ABC will begin a new all digital distribution system that will change how the programming is received. HD and SD network service will be carried on a single digital circuit. KOMO has a new rack full of digital receivers and processors. I am hopeful that that will help. If not, it seems to me that network SD programs will be affected by freezes also.

This new service was scheduled to begin tomorrow, but was resceduled for July 1. Apparently, some stations were not prepared.

Regarding KOMO's transmitting pattern: Anytime an antenna is mounted on the side of a tower, the circular pattern will be adversely affected. In KOMO's case, the antenna location on the tower and the distance away from the tower leg was computer modeled to minimize the interference. The direction of the 'null' was chosen to fall up the Straights where population is minimum. It is a very sharp null, no more than a few degrees, that lies across Shilshole Marina on the east side of the Sound and Indianola on the west. A few degrees north or south brings back a useable signal, if that is the problem. While the rest of the pattern has some bumps, there are no drastic holes that I am aware of.

The solution to the antenna problem will come after the FCC mandates that channel 4 go off the air. The channel 38 antenna can then go on top of the tower, in the clear. There is still debate going on in Congress about a firm cut-off date. The last date I heard was Decemeber 31, 2008. That could change in the bat of an eye...it's a political process and subject to pressure from all sides.

Don

Don - has it been absolutely determined that the freezes are in the signal arriving from the satellite at this point? It seems the periodic radar interference we had many months ago is gone.

FWIW, I see freezes on the ABC HD broadcast of the NBA Finals on Comcast too, so it's not specific to OTA vs Cable.

Don - has it been absolutely determined that the freezes are in the signal arriving from the satellite at this point? It seems the periodic radar interference we had many months ago is gone.

The freezes are showing up on the digital satellite receiver output. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is there on the uplink. I suppose it is still possible that there is some interference somewhere along the line.

As a little background, the traditional analog C-band network feed is received at the earth station on Vashon Island on a 7.3 m Andrew antenna. The video is relayed to the studio via analog microwave. The analog receive site was placed on Vashon because of the overwhelming 4GHz microwave interference from telco systems. In recent years, many of those circuits have been replaced by fiber, making 4 GHz satellite systems practical in the city. The HD feed is received on an antenna on the Fisher Plaza roof.

Comcast Cable is fed via fiber from the same program source that feeds the channel 38 digital transmitter. So the cable 104 and OTA 38 should always be identical.

Don

To keep things on the West Seattle front, I'm now looking at a house near the West Seattle Bridge near 37th Avenue SW and SW Manning Street. I'm guessing I shouldn't have too many problems...but I'll scout it out in person tonight.

Big
You may have some problems with 13, as there's a small hill to the west of you. On the other hand, you're close to 13 distance wise, so it might be possible. If you do get it, you may have problems with the direction. All the others ar north and northeast. Trying to get the 4221 to receive that wide is tricky, even when all are equal in strength. Since 13 is going to be significantly weaker, you may end up having to use another antenna for it, and couple the two antennas with a ch18 jointenna.
The other channels are going to come screaming in, so use an attenuator, like the one from RatShack, that's adjustable up to 20db.
Dan

Hey!
Just got back from several weeks in Spain. What a great country. If you get a chance, well worth the visit. Saw Barcelona, Madrid, Granada, Malaga, Gibraltar, Marbella, Rota, Cadiz, and a lot of the countryside in between. And a zillion little cars, all with diesels.
They have one thing I wish we could implement here, Siesta! Almost everyone shuts down at 2PM, goes home or wherever until 5PM, then everything starts up again until 9PM. Then after work, they all have a late supper, then they all (mom, pop, grandparents, kids) go out socializing at the local pubs, eating munchies (a thing called Tapas) and drinks until midnight. In the morning, no one starts work before 9AM. Still trying to get back into the grind here!
People are really friendly, and genuine. Must've asked for directions to this or that about a thousand times, not once did anyone brush me off. They always stopped and patiently gave directions. Amazing. They really know how to take life a little slower and enjoy.
Mediterranean coast line was beautiful, warm, not humid. A lot like Hawaii on the west side. City of Marbella, small town of rich retired northern Europeans, and many British, was great. Everyone speaks English, and prices for housing, CHEAP! 2bd/2bth ocean view condo, block from the beach, 165,000 Euros, just under $200k. Water is like Hawaii, warm winds, lots of good food. A mini city, with all the big city amenities, yet you could walk from one side to the other in 30 or 40 minutes. Great food, and, uhh... views, specially on the beaches! A sleeper place to visit.
Antennas.
Everywhere UHF. Saw a few horizontally stacked small UHF antennas, about half the size of a 4248. Was not able to find out anymore info on the stacking mast setup, though. Didn't see any preamps! They don't have any local HD over air, but do get HD from the satellites. All the antennas are yagis, no bow tie types. Tops of condos and apartments look like a forrest of antennas! Some so close to each other you wonder how they work. Didn't see any home theater type stores, just small setups like what you get in Fred Meyer or department store. There were plasmas, but they all looked like cheaper type brands. Didn't see any Pioneers or Fujitsus, mostly local brands. Reception was fair, satellite looked about like ours.
Anyone want info on travel, shoot me an e-mail or call.
Good to be back, though!

Now where did I set that plate of Tapas......

Senor Dan

Regarding KOMO's transmitting pattern: Anytime an antenna is mounted on the side of a tower, the circular pattern will be adversely affected. In KOMO's case, the antenna location on the tower and the distance away from the tower leg was computer modeled to minimize the interference. The direction of the 'null' was chosen to fall up the Straights where population is minimum. It is a very sharp null, no more than a few degrees, that lies across Shilshole Marina on the east side of the Sound and Indianola on the west. A few degrees north or south brings back a useable signal, if that is the problem. While the rest of the pattern has some bumps, there are no drastic holes that I am aware of.
Thanks for the info Don. I don't understand these things, but the polar map for KOMO shows that most of the power is going everywhere but towards me (About 310 degrees on the plot):

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/imgsetup/18937.gif

and I get about half the signal from KOMO as I do from KING and KIRO.

To say there were problems last night with the NBA game signal would be an understatement. Besides the freezing, when the picture went out for a couple of minutes near the end of the game, my friend and I were scrambling looking around for an NTSC signal...just as I was plugging a speaker wire :rolleyes: into the tv tuner on my HTPC, the game came back on, on the digital channel. T'was actually quite amusing cause we were kinda liquored up.
I'll be hoping (like everyone else) that when ABC changes the signal delivery as Don mentioned, the problems will vanish. Right now, it is a GIVEN than there will be freezing on every single primetime show in HD on 4-1. It's truly a show killer.


edit: Ok, this may sound silly, but any chance there is equipment overheating causing these freezes and (last night's) crash? Maybe it's just the overclocker in me talking, but we all know circuits hate heat. Has this been ruled out as a possibility?

...
Ok, this may sound silly, but any chance there is equipment overheating causing these freezes and (last night's) crash? Maybe it's just the overclocker in me talking, but we all know circuits hate heat. Has this been ruled out as a possibility?
Don can verify the particulars of their setup, but I *highly* doubt it is an overheating problem. The professional/commercial grade equipment that I have seen is a step above most consumer-grade products. Cooling fans galore on almost all equipment that needs it. The rooms are always temperature controlled as well. I have not dealt with broadcasting per se, but computer mainframe installations and other high-tech installations I've seen were always very well controlled environmentally all the way down to the circuit board level.

Did anyone else experience several minutes of silence during Law & Order tonight on 5-1? I noticed the first ten minutes of the first L&O rerun was in HD, but no sound. Then it "magically" switched to 4x3 upconverted SD and the sound came in. During the second hour there was no sound for the first minute (in HD, widescreen), and then 4x3 with sound.

I have a HDTivo, so I verified that sound came out on other channels, both HD and SD.

Weird. Think something was wrong with the signal/feed?

Did anyone else experience several minutes of silence during Law & Order tonight on 5-1? I noticed the first ten minutes of the first L&O rerun was in HD, but no sound. Then it "magically" switched to 4x3 upconverted SD and the sound came in. During the second hour there was no sound for the first minute (in HD, widescreen), and then 4x3 with sound.

I have a HDTivo, so I verified that sound came out on other channels, both HD and SD.

Weird. Think something was wrong with the signal/feed?

It must have been the feed, because KING DT on Expressvu had the same problems.

Don can verify the particulars of their setup, but I *highly* doubt it is an overheating problem. The professional/commercial grade equipment that I have seen is a step above most consumer-grade products. Cooling fans galore on almost all equipment that needs it. The rooms are always temperature controlled as well. I have not dealt with broadcasting per se, but computer mainframe installations and other high-tech installations I've seen were always very well controlled environmentally all the way down to the circuit board level.

Well said Quarque :) Sure that would be the ideal environment, but nothing is ever perfect- so you never know. I mean, they haven't figured out what's causing the freezing problem yet! We went through the interference phase, I think that's been ruled out, so I'm just trying to throw out ideas. Sometimes the most simple explanation is the correct one. Maybe they should turn the air conditioning down another 10 degrees for a night so at least they can rule heat out from the equation. Yes I am grasping at straws here, but if KOMO could solve the freezing problems they would be the best OTA DT station in the country. I truly believe that.

KOMO: Any chance The Golden Child will be HD tonight, or at least a widescreen presentation?

Here's a summary of my freezing problems tonight for the NBA game on KOMO, granted this was a casual observation and I may have missed some (although I think I got it down pretty well as I watched the entire game).


6:29 ~5-8 freezes

6:41 ~6 freezes then into commercial, end of 1st 1/4

7:13 ~1 freeze

7:38 ~1 freeze during playtime, into commercial with 3 more freezes

8:15 ~1 freeze

8:31 ~2 freezes during playtime, into commercial with 5+ freezes (this was a bad one)

8:49 ~8+ freezes right at the end of the game and into the post game interviews lasting at least a minute, more stuttering into commercials, end of network coverage.


Maybe this will help, I hope it does.

I am curious as to what the signal meter indicates during the freezes. Is anyone else having the same problem? I was not watching KOMO tonight so I am not able to provide feedback.

They said digital was good but they never told us about the freezes. Yes, digital transmission is good if not for the air as a tranmission medium. Are there lots of birds in your area? How about small planes? When that happens next time will you switch to analog TV to see if there is any picture problem?

Okay let me guess if the source of trouble is not in the air. Let's rule out interference. Well the possibilities are too many. Is the KOMO digital network synchronized to a Stratum I clock?

The freezes happen with both OTA and cable, so it's pretty clear it's not a reception issue. Also, I can tell which problems are KOMO and which are reception issues--the freezes are different--much more professional. ;)

My KOMO reception has been absolutely horrible for the last couple of weeks. By horrible I mean unwatchable. Definetly a reception issue, but I had been receiving it fine until recently. Thank goodness for distant networks on the satellite to watch the NBA Finals.

I am curious as to what the signal meter indicates during the freezes. Is anyone else having the same problem? I was not watching KOMO tonight so I am not able to provide feedback.

They said digital was good but they never told us about the freezes. Yes, digital transmission is good if not for the air as a tranmission medium. Are there lots of birds in your area? How about small planes? When that happens next time will you switch to analog TV to see if there is any picture problem?

Okay let me guess if the source of trouble is not in the air. Let's rule out interference. Well the possibilities are too many. Is the KOMO digital network synchronized to a Stratum I clock?

The freezes are present on the incoming ABC HDTV C-band satellite feed and can be seen at the studio. Other ABC affiliates have reported similar problems. Local KOMO programs are flawless, as are ABC's SD analog feeds that are 480i, filtered to remove NTSC artifacts and upconverted to 720p at the station. Interference into the satellite receiver cannot be ruled out.

This is all professional grade equipment, in an airconditioned environment and maintained by professionals.

Don

The freezes are present on the incoming ABC HDTV C-band satellite feed and can be seen at the studio. Other ABC affiliates have reported similar problems. Local KOMO programs are flawless, as are ABC's SD analog feeds that are 480i, filtered to remove NTSC artifacts and upconverted to 720p at the station. Interference into the satellite receiver cannot be ruled out.

This is all professional grade equipment, in an airconditioned environment and maintained by professionals.

Don


Thanks for your responses Don, everyone here greatly appreciates that you come here and talk to us about these issues. Personally, I watch KOMO a lot, a lot. Part of it is that I find ABC programming and news especially (Nightline, This Week..) superior to other networks and part of it is that KOMO does such an outstanding job with their local HD content delivery. It really is flawless as Don stated. I have never had a freeze or similar watching the news in HD.
So, what I am assuming from your post Don, is that you are leaning towards ABC as the problem in all of this. Is that a fair statement?
Seems rather logical to me ( I am no engineer), as KOMO has shown that they have no problem delivering OTA HD as long as it's not coming from ABC. Good luck with all of this, and once again all of us appreciates you being here to talk to us. KOMO really does go above and beyond for it's viewers.

Thanks for your responses Don, everyone here greatly appreciates that you come here and talk to us about these issues. Personally, I watch KOMO a lot, a lot. Part of it is that I find ABC programming and news especially (Nightline, This Week..) superior to other networks and part of it is that KOMO does such an outstanding job with their local HD content delivery. It really is flawless as Don stated. I have never had a freeze or similar watching the news in HD.
So, what I am assuming from your post Don, is that you are leaning towards ABC as the problem in all of this. Is that a fair statement?
Seems rather logical to me ( I am no engineer), as KOMO has shown that they have no problem delivering OTA HD as long as it's not coming from ABC. Good luck with all of this, and once again all of us appreciates you being here to talk to us. KOMO really does go above and beyond for it's viewers.

Thanks for the kind words.

My best guess is that there is a problem in the network delivery system...whether it is something goofy in the transport stream or something interfering with the satellite signal at the receive end. As I mentioned before, ABC will begin a new all digital network distribution system on July 1. Whether this will change anything remains to be seen. As I understand it, the analog SD network feed will be dropped, and the SD feed will arrive via the new digital system.

Don

Hmmmm... 14 more days... that's 336 hours... or 20160 minutes... or 1,209,600 seconds until the NEW IMPROVED ABC system goes live. Let the countdown begin. And cross your fingers, toes and any other appendages you have. Thanks Don.

Thanks for the kind words.

My best guess is that there is a problem in the network delivery system...whether it is something goofy in the transport stream or something interfering with the satellite signal at the receive end. As I mentioned before, ABC will begin a new all digital network distribution system on July 1. Whether this will change anything remains to be seen. As I understand it, the analog SD network feed will be dropped, and the SD feed will arrive via the new digital system.

Don

Digital transmission is a mature technology. But, with all the dollars that the broadcast network can afford, my guess is that they use the latest and greatest cutting edge technology. In that case, there is a chance that some bugs still exist. Again, with top dollars, I have no doubt that the country's topmost experts are hired to resolve problems.

Let's hope that comes July 1, all will be well.

With the proliferation of wireless consumer products, it will be no surprise to me if there was interference to the receiving end of the C-band transmission. Finding out if there was interference is no rocket science, and I'm sure you guys will find out sooner or later.

For now, we can all count down to July 1, and let's hope that major freezes will be history.

Larry:

Would greatly appreciate your estimate of my chances of getting OTA HD signals at the intersection of 181st ave and 104th st in Redmond. Just past the high school, but I fear I'm on the wrong side of education hill. We just moved here and I can't get any regular OTA signals using rabbit ears, so I'm guessing that buying an HD receiver would be ill-advised.

THanks for your help!

What's up with KING5's signal today? Keeps cutting in and out. Furthermore what the heck is NBC thinking framing some of this stuff 16x9 but not taking the extra step to send DTV watchers the real deal? This kind of stuff drives me crazy, absolutely crazy.

Larry:

Would greatly appreciate your estimate of my chances of getting OTA HD signals at the intersection of 181st ave and 104th st in Redmond. Just past the high school, but I fear I'm on the wrong side of education hill. We just moved here and I can't get any regular OTA signals using rabbit ears, so I'm guessing that buying an HD receiver would be ill-advised.

THanks for your help!

Yes, that hill is about 70 feet above you but I have seen people in similar situations pull in stations with a mast on a 2-story house. The straight line from the QA transmitters through the top of that hill comes out about 35 feet above the ground at your site. If you want to invest the time and money, you do have a chance.

Just bought a Channel master 3679 antenna to get regular 2-13 channels (VHF?) but signals are still a bit fuzzy (in Darrington). I'm told I need a pre-amp to boost signal. Any shops locally that carry the CM 7777 or similar?

Just bought a Channel master 3679 antenna to get regular 2-13 channels (VHF?) but signals are still a bit fuzzy (in Darrington). I'm told I need a pre-amp to boost signal. Any shops locally that carry the CM 7777 or similar?
Try Pringle's in Everett.

Hi all, first post here. I live in Kent east hill near 108th and 212th anybody receiving ota hdtv in this area?

Hi all, first post here. I live in Kent east hill near 108th and 212th anybody receiving ota hdtv in this area?

Smokindosia
Have several installs within a few blocks of you, that's a good location. If you're not surrounded by trees, or behind some big building, should be easy for a 4221 up around the roofline.
Dan

Smokindosia
Have several installs within a few blocks of you, that's a good location. If you're not surrounded by trees, or behind some big building, should be easy for a 4221 up around the roofline.
Dan

Dan thanks for the info, i should be ok there arent to many large trees around me and itll be going on the roof. Do you have any sites that sell the 4221 or somewhere local that sells them?

just noticed the post above my first post about pringles anywhere closer to kent

Smokindosia,

I live north of you on the same hill near SE 164th St. and 131st Ave. SE.

I use this $25 antenna from Radio Shack with excellent results for Seattle and Gold Mountain (Bremerton) transmitters for digital stations:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

You may want to give it a try, since it is easy to find (the web site will identify your closest in-stock store) and easy to return if it does not work for you.

Keep in mind that sometime down the road, when the analog signals stop, some stations will be moving their digital channels to their former analog VHF channels. These RS and Winegard antennas are UHF-only.

Good luck.

Looks like KOMO is giving us something the rest of the nation isn't getting, this NBA game in 5.1 sound. Three cheers for KOMO-DT!

Smokindosia,

I live north of you on the same hill near SE 164th St. and 131st Ave. SE.

I use this $25 antenna from Radio Shack with excellent results for Seattle and Gold Mountain (Bremerton) transmitters for digital stations:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

You may want to give it a try, since it is easy to find (the web site will identify your closest in-stock store) and easy to return if it does not work for you.

Keep in mind that sometime down the road, when the analog signals stop, some stations will be moving their digital channels to their former analog VHF channels. These RS and Winegard antennas are UHF-only.

Good luck.



Budget_HT
Most of the engineers I've talked with, and from what I've read, say that the VHF analog channels frequencies will be sold or auctioned off by the FCC when the time comes to pull the plug. Read back a few posts and KOMO was talking about how much better their signal transmission pattern will be when they replace the VHF antenna on top with the UHF one, which is currently on the east side of the tower.
I don't think anyone needs to worry about using a UHF only antenna.

I agree, the 15-2160 might work, worth a try. If not, then find a 4221 on line, or order one from Pringles in Evt.
Dan

Dan,

I thought I had seen recent announcements of commitments stations had to make to the FCC regarding keeping their UHF channels or reverting back to their VHF channels. While I can't recall details, I am pretty sure that some Seattle stations had opted to go back to VHF. I read this somewhere on this forum, but can't remember where.

Looks like KOMO is giving us something the rest of the nation isn't getting, this NBA game in 5.1 sound. Three cheers for KOMO-DT!

I don't mean to rain on your parade but the network is only sending out DD 2.0 to the affiliates. If KOMO is transmitting a DD 5.1 audio track it is a local problem.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but the network is only sending out DD 2.0 to the affiliates. If KOMO is transmitting a DD 5.1 audio track it is a local problem.

My receiver SAID it was getting 5.1 but on closer examination of each speaker audio it was NOT 5.1 - it sounded like 2.0 and when I forced it to 2.0 mode there was no noticeable change. So I'm pretty sure the 5.1 was bogus.

Dan,

I thought I had seen recent announcements of commitments stations had to make to the FCC regarding keeping their UHF channels or reverting back to their VHF channels. While I can't recall details, I am pretty sure that some Seattle stations had opted to go back to VHF. I read this somewhere on this forum, but can't remember where.

How short our memories are! :) I posted this a couple pages back (I love quoting myself!):


Good news and not-so-good news:

I checked the First Round Channel Elections filed for our locals and found they applied for their FINAL DTV Channel as follows:

KOMO-DT 38 (YEAH)
KING-DT 48 (YEAH)
KIRO-DT 39 (YEAH)
KCTS-DT 9 (BOO!)
KTWB-DT 25 (YEAH)
KCPQ-DT 13 (BOO!)
KONG-DT 31 (YEAH)
KSTW-DT 11 (BOO!)
KWPX-DT 33 (YEAH)

As you can see, 9,11,13 plan to go back to their VHF channels. This *may* mean those of us with UHF-only antennas will need another round of antenna fiddling and/or replacement for OTA. Most UHF antennas will pick up high-VHF channels (7-13) to some extent. You won't know for sure about your own setup until the Big Switch.

All stations had to submit a form earlier this year stating what their preference was for a permanent HD frequency. Most stations around the country are sticking with their present HD frequency, probably due to cost.

Well, I was heartened to see some Duvall people pulling in some signals, but I fear you all are a little higher than me - I'm at ~160' (with a small hill a quarter mile away, but I think that's the least of my problems). Any chance of me getting a signal over Redmond Ridge?

Well, I was heartened to see some Duvall people pulling in some signals, but I fear you all are a little higher than me - I'm at ~160' (with a small hill a quarter mile away, but I think that's the least of my problems). Any chance of me getting a signal over Redmond Ridge?


Send an address or intersection and we'll check it out.
Dan

Well, I was heartened to see some Duvall people pulling in some signals, but I fear you all are a little higher than me - I'm at ~160' (with a small hill a quarter mile away, but I think that's the least of my problems). Any chance of me getting a signal over Redmond Ridge?

E-mailed you the sad results.
Dan

How short our memories are! :) I posted this a couple pages back (I love quoting myself!):



All stations had to submit a form earlier this year stating what their preference was for a permanent HD frequency. Most stations around the country are sticking with their present HD frequency, probably due to cost.

quarque
Haven't had much time to reread back on this thread, to where I was before vacation, still trying to catch up.
Good info, interesting.
I agree, what are they thinking by switching back to VHF?!?!
One would think with all the money spent on new digital UHF equipment they would want to keep using it. If a viewer can't receive a signal, they can't watch the show, and advertising (read revenue!), so what are they $aving ?!?! Sounds like some bean counter decision, although I can't fathom how they figured it.... Must be New Math!
Dan

E-mailed you the sad results.
Dan

Thanks again Dan, for you future AVSers (or googlers) this was off of Cherry Valley Road, on the backside of the hill down from the school, and its an emphatic no-go.

Thanks again Dan, for you future AVSers (or googlers) this was off of Cherry Valley Road, on the backside of the hill down from the school, and its an emphatic no-go.

Sorry to hear that but let's double check.

How's your reception on the conventional analog TV, over the air of course?

SW

Hi all. I've been reading through these avsforums for months trying to select all my equipment. It was delivered today, so now I'm here to seek help on OTA HD. I hope you don't mind all these questions - I haven't had an antenna in 20 years. :)

Dan, this is great what you do for all these people! Can you look me up please? I'm in Puyallup near 104th St E and 90th Ave E. I'm near the top of the hill, so I'd think I'd have good luck. There are quite a few trees around, but none directly north of me.

For everyone, I hope you can provide some advice for me. I'm having no luck at all getting digital KING or KOMO even though I can get digital KIRO with a fairly good signal. As I said above, I'm at the top of a north facing hill (about 35 miles south of Seattle). I'm trying to use an internal antenna because I want to avoid some huge external tower or roof-mount due to the CCRs in my neighborhood. If I have to, I wouldn't mind putting up some slim antenna under the roof or something. I could also try putting the internal on the second floor or in the attic and running a cable.

I was able to get KCPQ and KTBW (both digital) very easy with both antennas I tried. With some work I was also able to get digital KIRO on both antennas. The first antenna was the Terk TV5 (.pdf) (http://terk.com/pdfs/tv5.pdf) , and the second is the Jensen TV920 (http://www.jensenaccessories.com/ModelDetail.html?PCD=Home&ProductID=TV920). The Jensen is working a lot better, and I was able to get KCTS with it, but I can't get KOMO or KING still. It seems very odd to me that I can't get these when I can get the others, especially since KING and KIRO are in the same location according to antennaweb.org. In case it helps, with the antenna situated to receive KIRO and KCPQ the analog channels are as follows:

KOMO barely comes in and is usually black and white with lots of static
KING has colored dots and is blury
KIRO is ghosted and blury


I also found it strange how small the sweet spot is for the channels I can get. I put the antenna at about 5'8" and can get about 40-60% signal. If I move it up or down an inch or two, the signal goes to nearly 0. I finally got a touch of signal on KOMO, but not enough to watch, and just moving the antenna horizontally an inch or so can make a huge difference. IS it possible that studs are messing with it?

In addition, when I'm not touching the antenna and not near it, I can watch the signal jump from 4 (40%?) to 0 bars and back. Is this normal? Is there a tree or something swinging?

What signal strength should I be comfortable with? Should I have to rotate my antenna to get different channels? Since I'm so far away, most that I care about are in the same direction. If you have any recommendations on antennas, I'd love to hear them. I've heard a lot of people say the Silver Sensor (.pdf) (http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/downloads_pdf/ZHDTV1Z.pdf) is good. Would that help me since most towers are in the same direction? I saw one antenna site (http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/uhf.html)) say this Radio Shack antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624) was the best indoor one . Has anyone used it? It's not available in the area, so I wouldn't be able to return it easily if I buy it.

Finally, how many subchannels is KCTS broadcasting? I was only getting 9-1 and 9-5 tonight, and that seemed odd to me. Is there a site that lists all the current subchannels? I know of several that tell you the main channels.

Hi all. I've been reading through these avsforums for months trying to select all my equipment. It was delivered today, so now I'm here to seek help on OTA HD. I hope you don't mind all these questions - I haven't had an antenna in 20 years. :)
...


KOMO barely comes in and is usually black and white with lots of static
KING has colored dots and is blury
KIRO is ghosted and blury


...


Your analog (NTSC) reception above indicates that you may be able to get them all in digital HD.

You would need a better antenna like the silver sensor or "silver sensor" (like the Terk HDTVi ).

In any case, "your mileage may vary". Patience always pays. It took me 4 weekends to find the only one place in my house where a "silver sensor" or Yagi can pick up KTBW-DT from 26 miles away!

I also have very good luck with KBCB-DT 90 miles North of me! The analog TV reception for KBCB-TV looks fuzzy with lots of static but the digital reception by Samsung SIRT451 is just superb. The antenna I use is the Terk HDTVi, similar in design to the silver sensor but it has the added benefit of VHF Ch2-13.

Of course, "your mileage may vary", depending on whether you are in the line of sight of the TV towers.

By the way, you can buy the Terk HDTVi at Radio Shack. You can also get the Zenith Silver Sensor at Sears.

I use a Channel Master Model 3042 UHF/VHF/FM amplifier (from Lowes Hardware) but you may not always need one unless your signal is marginal. This amplifier has a single input and single output. The type with multiple outputs may not work the same - some multioutput amplifiers are advertised with 10 dB gain but the instruction in the box states "2 dB gain per output" - you would get much less improvement than with 10 dB single output.

SW

Anyone else have a ton of drop-outs last night during the last few minutes of the finals?

Sorry to hear that but let's double check.

How's your reception on the conventional analog TV, over the air of course?

SW

4, 5, 7 are clear, 9, 11, 13 are a little fuzzier but easily watchable, this from a roof-height antenna.

edit: 16 is legible but unpleasant, 20 is fuzzy but watchable if you're into that sort of thing, 22 comes in surprisingly good. I don't remember if 28 is supposed to do something or not, but it doesn't :).

... I'm at the top of a north facing hill (about 35 miles south of Seattle). I'm trying to use an internal antenna because I want to avoid some huge external tower or roof-mount due to the CCRs in my neighborhood. If I have to, I wouldn't mind putting up some slim antenna under the roof or something. I could also try putting the internal on the second floor or in the attic and running a cable.

I am a lot closer to Seattle towers, by over 20 miles. I am on top of a hill east of Renton. I was never able to get usable reception with any attempted indoor antenna. With an inexpense UHF roof-mount antenna, I get virtually perfect OTA digital reception. I suggest you seriously consider an outdoor antenna.

... ... I was able to get KCPQ and KTBW very easy with both antennas I tried. With some work I was also able to get KIRO on both antennas.

Were these their digital channel or the analog channels?

... ... I was able to get KCTS with it, but I can't get KOMO or KING still. It seems very odd to me that I can't get these when I can get the others, especially since KING and KIRO are in the same location according to antennaweb.org. In case it helps, with the antenna situated to receive KIRO and KCPQ the analog channels are as follows:

KOMO barely comes in and is usually black and white with lots of static
KING has colored dots and is blury
KIRO is ghosted and blury




These descriptions sound like the analog channels to me. Am I misunderstanding?

... ... Finally, how many subchannels is KCTS broadcasting? I was only getting 9-1 and 9-5 tonight, and that seemed odd to me. Is there a site that lists all the current subchannels? I know of several that tell you the main channels.

KCTS digital has two modes of operation: before 5 PM and after 5 PM.

Before 5 PM, they broadcast 3 subchannels, 9-1, 9-2 and 9-3. All are SD, not HD.

After 5 PM, they broadcast 2 subchannels, 9-1 (SD) and 9-5 (HD).

General suggestions:

Go outside with your antenna. CCRs do not apply, as you have probably read elsewhere in this forum. You can still be as discrete as possible to minimize what can be seen from the street. We have CCRs, and I have two antennas (separate VHF and UHF) both mounted on a 15-foot mast extending from my fireplace chimney. I also have a DirecTV oval dish mounted on a rear corner of my house, barely visible from the street, only if you stand between my house and my neighbor's house. No one has ever complained in 28 years.

To do coarse adjustment aiming of your antenna for Seattle stations, you can use analog UHF channels KONG-16 (on Queen Anne Hill--same tower as KING and same vicinity as KOMO and KIRO) and KTWB-22 (same site on Capitol Hill as KCTS-9 and KSTW-11). I have had good results by optimizing those analog channels first and then looking at the digital channels. I have done this because digital channels are essentially go/no go and the iterative aiming process by monitoring digital channel signal quality meters or pictures is difficult and frustrating.

Actually, at my own house, I set my antenna initially based on antennaweb.org and barely had to adjust it to be able to get all Seattle stations to the north and Gold Mountain/Bremerton (KCPQ-13) to the west. Helping other folks was not as easy, but this little analog first/digital next approach has worked for me.

Good Luck!!!

4, 5, 7 are clear, 9, 11, 13 are a little fuzzier but easily watchable, this from a roof-height antenna.

edit: 16 is legible but unpleasant, 20 is fuzzy but watchable if you're into that sort of thing, 22 comes in surprisingly good. I don't remember if 28 is supposed to do something or not, but it doesn't :).

Well, you are not entirely blocked off from UHF reception. It may be worth a try, depending on your priority.

. I could also try putting the internal on the second floor or in the attic and running a cable.


Yep. Be sure the cable is at least RG6. RG6 Quad Shield is even better. I replaced my old RG59 with RG6 Quad Shield of 25 ft length. I get additional stations that I would not have received with my old cable. If you want your wiring to be tidy and want to get better signal too, invest in a compression connector tool ($20), coax cable stripper (not much), RG6 Quad Shield cable(17 cents a foot at Home Depot), "T tool" for easy insertion of connectors and RG6QS compression type coax connectors.

Oh yes, if you have windows on the second floor that look out in the direction of the TV towers, you have much better chances of getting good signals.

On the second floor, at the windows that look out in the direction of the towers, try pointing a silver sensor. Try different heights using a mast, paint roller stick, ladder or anything to elevate the antenna. Try every window looking in the tower direction with the silver sensor at various heights.

Beside the windows, the chimney and fireplace area also offers good TV signal penetration into the house. The fireplace area is good only if the chimney is on the side of the house and facing the TV towers.

Sky windows may be a great spot too if you desperately want to use only indoor antenna.

Thanks all for your advice. I'll be sure to try some of the suggestions this weekend.

Is 10db enough for an amplifier or should I get more? Some of the indoor amplifiers have 40db.

Budget_HT, what outdoor antenna do you have? Also, I was referring to the digital channels in all cases except where I specified analog, which I think was only the bulleted list. Yes, the bulleted list was referring to the analog signals - I was just giving that as a reference of how well I receive signals from the towers. I've updated my post to be more clear.

Thanks all for your advice. I'll be sure to try some of the suggestions this weekend.

Is 10db enough for an amplifier or should I get more? Some of the indoor amplifiers have 40db.



An amplifier will amplify everything, weak signals and strong signals, and electrical noise too. Ideally, your antenna would want to point only to stations that give comparable signal strengths at the antenna - your TV receiver is less likely to be overloaded. The signal level at which overloading occurs depends on the incoming signals (various channels at the same time) from the antenna.

My location is 12 miles from the closet TV tower, and the furthest station is 90 miles to the North. With all local and distant stations tranmitting at various RF power levels, an amplifier has to accomodate a wide range of input signal levels. My cable length varies from 8 ft to 40 ft for the three indoor antennas.

As you can see, a variable amplifier is probably best. But an amplifier with a fixed gain is the simplest to use and it has a known gain. I have used an amplifier with a fixed gain of 13 dB without overloading the digital TV receiver antenna input.

An amplifier noise figure of 3.5 dB or lower is good. You would also want to have the lowest possible noise by using cables with plenty of EMI/RFI shielding, like the RG6 Quad Shield. For testing purposes, you would want to buy a 50 ft RG6 Quad Shield cable or longer to allow experimenting with placing antenna at various window locations that look in the direction of TV towers, at various heights. Keep in mind that you would also loose at least 1 dB for every 20 ft length of cable. Every connector in the line also introduces fractional dB losses, and is also a potential point for poor connection. If you use splitters, the loss is 3.5 dB for a two-way splitter - more for 3-way and 4-way splitters. Splitters also add more connecting points, like having more connectors. If you do use splitters, buy high quality ones rated to 2 GHz or at least 1 GHz. By the way, every splitter also introduces signal reflection, lowering the signal quality.

One should not be misled by amplifier gain alone. Signal quality is very important and can be had by a good directional high gain antenna. Thus we consider antenna gain and amplifier gain. It is best to get an antenna with highest gain that will not overload the receiver, and add an amplifier only if needed but possibly no more than 13 dB. You can experiment with higher gain - just be sure about the store's return policy before you buy.

Antenna pre-amplifier (20+ dB gain) can be used too. They are mostly for outdoor antennas with long cable runs, with antenna pointing at distant TV stations. You can use a preamplifier indoor as well, so long as they don't cause overloads. Thus if you figure the extra dB above 13 dB as going toward offsetting cable lengths (5-7 dB loss per 100 ft) with the remaining gain going toward further signal improvement, then there is less chances of overloads.

Thanks all for your advice. I'll be sure to try some of the suggestions this weekend.

Is 10db enough for an amplifier or should I get more? Some of the indoor amplifiers have 40db.

Budget_HT, what outdoor antenna do you have? Also, I was referring to the digital channels in all cases except where I specified analog, which I think was only the bulleted list. Yes, the bulleted list was referring to the analog signals - I was just giving that as a reference of how well I receive signals from the towers. I've updated my post to be more clear.

This is my $25 UHF yagi antenna from Radio Shack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160&hp=search

This may or may not work for you. At least Radio Shack is good about accepting returns for items in like-new condition with clean packaging.

I thought you were talking about digital channels until I got to the bulleted list, so actually I did interpret your post correctly.

My OTA analog reception at home suffers from multiple ghosts on every channel, bad enough to be unwatchable. That is from my VHF antenna at the top of my mast.

My OTA digital reception is almost flawless, if not for some trees that are growing more every year, causing occasional dropouts, but very tolerable. My UHF antenna is 5 feet lower on the mast. I used RG-6 cable from the UHF antenna and feed it through a single splitter because I have more than one HDTV receiver (STBs). I have not used nor needed any amplification.

Be aware that a digital tuner can actually become overloaded with too much signal, resulting in no reception. If you use an amplifier, variable gain would allow you to make sure you are not overloading your receiver. If you use a fixed-gain preamp mounted right at the antenna, you could add a variable attenuator just before the TV input (or just before the splitter if you use one), but NOT in between the outdoor amp and the indoor power insertion unit for the amp.

Here is a Radio Shack variable attenuator that many folks have used successfully:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F002&product%5Fid=15%2D678

Good luck. Let us know your progress. Don't give up before you have tried a variety of locations and possibly more than one outdoor antenna. I have shared my experiences, but others have also had good experiences with other products. Many successes are found in this thread in earlier posts.

Hi all. I've been reading through these avsforums for months trying to select all my equipment. It was delivered today, so now I'm here to seek help on OTA HD. I hope you don't mind all these questions - I haven't had an antenna in 20 years. :)

Dan, this is great what you do for all these people! Can you look me up please? I'm in Puyallup near 104th St E and 90th Ave E. I'm near the top of the hill, so I'd think I'd have good luck. There are quite a few trees around, but none directly north of me.

For everyone, I hope you can provide some advice for me. I'm having no luck at all getting digital KING or KOMO even though I can get digital KIRO with a fairly good signal. As I said above, I'm at the top of a north facing hill (about 35 miles south of Seattle). I'm trying to use an internal antenna because I want to avoid some huge external tower or roof-mount due to the CCRs in my neighborhood. If I have to, I wouldn't mind putting up some slim antenna under the roof or something. I could also try putting the internal on the second floor or in the attic and running a cable.

I was able to get KCPQ and KTBW (both digital) very easy with both antennas I tried. With some work I was also able to get digital KIRO on both antennas. The first antenna was the Terk TV5 (.pdf) (http://terk.com/pdfs/tv5.pdf) , and the second is the Jensen TV920 (http://www.jensenaccessories.com/ModelDetail.html?PCD=Home&ProductID=TV920). The Jensen is working a lot better, and I was able to get KCTS with it, but I can't get KOMO or KING still. It seems very odd to me that I can't get these when I can get the others, especially since KING and KIRO are in the same location according to antennaweb.org. In case it helps, with the antenna situated to receive KIRO and KCPQ the analog channels are as follows:

KOMO barely comes in and is usually black and white with lots of static
KING has colored dots and is blury
KIRO is ghosted and blury


I also found it strange how small the sweet spot is for the channels I can get. I put the antenna at about 5'8" and can get about 40-60% signal. If I move it up or down an inch or two, the signal goes to nearly 0. I finally got a touch of signal on KOMO, but not enough to watch, and just moving the antenna horizontally an inch or so can make a huge difference. IS it possible that studs are messing with it?

In addition, when I'm not touching the antenna and not near it, I can watch the signal jump from 4 (40%?) to 0 bars and back. Is this normal? Is there a tree or something swinging?

What signal strength should I be comfortable with? Should I have to rotate my antenna to get different channels? Since I'm so far away, most that I care about are in the same direction. If you have any recommendations on antennas, I'd love to hear them. I've heard a lot of people say the Silver Sensor (.pdf) (http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/downloads_pdf/ZHDTV1Z.pdf) is good. Would that help me since most towers are in the same direction? I saw one antenna site (http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/uhf.html)) say this Radio Shack antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624) was the best indoor one . Has anyone used it? It's not available in the area, so I wouldn't be able to return it easily if I buy it.

Finally, how many subchannels is KCTS broadcasting? I was only getting 9-1 and 9-5 tonight, and that seemed odd to me. Is there a site that lists all the current subchannels? I know of several that tell you the main channels.

snooby
Thanks for the compliment. Glad to help when I can, but quarque does the lions share of lookups, so he should receive the most kudos.

You're not in a bad spot, elevation wise, but there are a lot of trees around you. Maybe not directly north, but they can give you a small amount of trouble. My brother only lives a half mile west of you, off Canyon. He is in the trees, but gets fair analog reception. Digital is another story. Analog reception is not really a good indicator of digital reception possibility. It can swing either way. Great analog and lousy digital, or vice versa. It just means you MIGHT have a better chance than if you got zero analog. The only true way to find out is to try something. What you use for testing, though, can make a huge difference, as well as location, which you've already found out. You really need to get the antenna outdoors. It doesn't have to be above the roof, just on the north side of the house. UHF antennas aren't all huge, and there are different styles, each with it's own special abilities. What to use is the trick. Sadly, there is no one antenna that does it all everywhere all the time. I carry between 3 and 5 different ones in my van. The most expensive or the largest isn't what always works. Each site is unique. Indoor antennas can work, but they are fighting losses from all the wood or brick of the walls, and then signals bouncing around inside. Attics are about the same. At 32 miles from Queen Anne (4-5-7-16) you need a fair amount of gain from your antenna, and indoor types aren't really designed for that. A preamp can help overcome the small antenna gain, but then you run into signal to noise ratio problems. You want lots of signal, very little noise. The numbers you see on your receiver, indicating a percentage between 0 & 100 are simply signal to noise ratio, NOT how much signal you're getting. Once you're above a minimum amount for the receiver to decode something (usually about -15db to -13db) then you'll lock on to the signal, as long as noise doesn't factor in too much. Lots of noise, low % readings, low noise, then maybe 50-100%. BUT, if you're right on the edge of minimum, then you get an effect where it reads fairly good, say 70-80%, then suddenly zero, then back again. In the analog world you're familiar with, you may see a picture and sound, but it has varying degrees of snow, ghosting, sound and picture distortion, etc. Digital reception is either there and perfect, or nothing. On the edge, sound cuts out or breaks up, and pictures start to freeze and may go into blocking or tiling. Once yor above those minimums, you could have a hundred times more signal, and the readings could still be the same percentage, and the picture would still look perfect.
What does all this mean?
There's a lot of things that need to come together for reliable HD reception. The basics are an adequate antenna for the site, which should you give you good gain on all the channels you need, good cable into the house, proper location, good grounding, including the electrical in your house, and more.
As for why some channels come in and others don't, it has to do with the frequency you're trying for, how much it's affected by the terrain and elements, and how much station power you're getting at the site. This is where the different antenna types come in. If you can see across the valley to the SW side of Edgewood/Milton hill, then you're in great shape if not, but there are no big firs in the way, just low trees and houses, you still have a good shot at it, just get it up enough to see over them. From where you are, the difference in angle between Queen Anne and Capitol Hills is so close it's not a big deal. Ch13 is more to the west, towards Bremerton, but usually still comes in okay. You are going through more of the trees as the hill doesn't fall away so fast in ch13 direction, but may not be that much of a problem. A Channel Master 4221 can be mounted on the side of the house and not be too noticeable. CC&R's are not a problem, as the FCC has passed a law overriding those for TV reception. Of course, you do have to live with your neighbors, too. I think you'll find the 4221 can keep most everyone happy.
Mount it first, and see what you get. You may need a preamp to help get the signal level up over the noise level, so try a Channel Master 7775. Radio Shack and others make cheaper ones, but they aren't usually of a good enough quality to work that well. You can get the antenna and preamp, if needed, on the web or locally at Pringles in Everett. Radio Shack also makes a small outdoor yagi that can be mounted on the side of the house, the 15-2160, but I don't think it's going to have enough gain for you.
Channel 9 has 5 sub channels. 9-1, which is always on when they're broadcasting, and is the same programming as regular analog 9.
9-2 & 9-3, and sometimes 9-4 are on during the day for other shows, mostly educational and childrens shows. After 5PM they shut down 9-2, 9-3 and 9-4 (9-1 stays on) so they can have enough bandwidth to broadcast HD programming over 9-5. They leave it on until 11PM. It's the only true HD channel they have. The 9-1 channel says Digital TV in the lower corner, but it's only 480p. It looks far better than regular analog ch9, because it's not susceptible to noise or ghosting problems, but it's not the true HD 1080i content, like 9-5 is.
Call if you have questions.
Dan
206-794-3993

I was real excited to see that that Mariners game was being broadcast on FOX today, which gave me my first chance to watch the M's in HD!

But as I have been watching the game on 13-01 I was pretty disappointed because the picture was much softer than the HD football games I watched last fall. I got a wide screen picture, but it seemed only marginally more clear than an SD broadcast picture, rather than the razor sharp image I was getting for football games. I dont' know if it's because of the camera angles for baseball which require placing the cameras much farther away from the action, but the pic was not nearly as sharp as I expected.

Did anybody elsen notice this?

BTW, I have a Dish 921 and a 720P video projector with 92" screen in case you were wondering what I was watching it on.

Let me know if you see the same "softness" of the picture.

Thanks,

Steve

Let me know if you see the same "softness" of the picture.

Thanks,

Steve

I see the same "softness" on Comcast QAM 81.1 (KCPQ-HD) so my guess is that it's the source (Fox) and not OTA vs Cable.

It's not HD. It's 16X9 SD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=552825

I was real excited to see that that Mariners game was being broadcast on FOX today, which gave me my first chance to watch the M's in HD!

Not HD. it was just 16:9 480. And it wasn't even good 16:9 480. KOMO's remote 16:9 cameras provide a lot better picture.

Note that with HD PQ can vary a lot, as apparently 16:9 480 can. But this was the worst of the worst.

Has anybody else noticed in the past week KIRO-DT's audio has been sounding weird? It sounds phased out and airy.

4, 5, 7 are clear, 9, 11, 13 are a little fuzzier but easily watchable, this from a roof-height antenna.

edit: 16 is legible but unpleasant, 20 is fuzzy but watchable if you're into that sort of thing, 22 comes in surprisingly good. I don't remember if 28 is supposed to do something or not, but it doesn't :).

I get a great signal here in Duvall with my 4228...I have a Radio Shack 15-2160 just sitting in the shed...you are more than welcome to have it.

Send me an email...

It's not HD. It's 16X9 SD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=552825


Wow .. I didn't even know there was such a thing as 16x9 widescreen SD!

Well that makes sense now, cause it LOOKED like an SD picture .. only bigger. :-)

Wow .. I didn't even know there was such a thing as 16x9 widescreen SD!

Well that makes sense now, cause it LOOKED like an SD picture .. only bigger. :-)

The year before this last one, Fox had very little HD. They claimed that "Fox Widescreen" was good enough (I think they envisioned more network multicasting on the HD subchannels).

But again, there's been discussion here of the KOMO remote cameras, which are 16:9 SD. Some of that material looks pretty good.

I get a great signal here in Duvall with my 4228...I have a Radio Shack 15-2160 just sitting in the shed...you are more than welcome to have it.

Send me an email...

Thanks! I should probably get a TV first though ;) but I may take you up on that at some point, if only to see if I can get SOME signal! You guys are invaluable, I keep wondering how I bought anything before internets - I mean, you could go to the library and read Consumer Reports I guess but...

Thanks! I should probably get a TV first though ;) but I may take you up on that at some point, if only to see if I can get SOME signal! You guys are invaluable, I keep wondering how I bought anything before internets - I mean, you could go to the library and read Consumer Reports I guess but...

One way to determine your reception opportunities before buying an HDTV:

Buy an HD OTA set top box and an antenna you think might work. The HD STB has outputs compatible with standard TVs, including S-video, composite video and RF. You can do your antenna experimenting to see whether reception via OTA is feasible for you or not. I suspect you will find an antenna and a sweet spot for it that gives you good reception, but there are many variables that play into this equation.

If you buy the STB at Circuit City (or maybe Best Buy, I'm not sure for them) you can return it within 30 days for a full refund. You may not want to keep the STB if the HDTV you buy has a built-in OTA tuner.

Good Luck!!!

The year before this last one, Fox had very little HD. They claimed that "Fox Widescreen" was good enough (I think they envisioned more network multicasting on the HD subchannels).

But again, there's been discussion here of the KOMO remote cameras, which are 16:9 SD. Some of that material looks pretty good.

The key difference is that the KOMO field cameras are Sony digital camcorders. The video is captured, edited and played to air in the digital domain, without being subjected to NTSC encoding with the resulting ugly artifacts.

Don

Don,

In addition to eliminating NTSC-induced artifacts that affect picture details, I think it is evident that the all-digital processing also preserves color fidelity/accuracy for HDTV viewing, while NTSC processing limits the ranges of colors available.

It is interesting to note that some folks react more to color accuracy and others to picture detail when evaluating overall picture quality. Given a choice of the two, I personally would rather see color accuracy, even if the picture detail is a little soft. Of course, I really want both.

The key difference is that the KOMO field cameras are Sony digital camcorders. The video is captured, edited and played to air in the digital domain, without being subjected to NTSC encoding with the resulting ugly artifacts.

Don

I'm actually glad to know that. Otherwise I'd have to admit I didn't have a very good eye for video quality. ;)

Seriously, some of the remote stuff from KOMO looks pretty good. And I'm not just talking about the stuff that doesn't show Ken Schram! :D

(Double seriously, I can tell the difference between Ken Schram in 16:9 SD and 16:9 HD. But the 16:9 stuff from Komo news is much better than a lot of HD I watch.)

It is interesting to note that some folks react more to color accuracy and others to picture detail when evaluating overall picture quality. Given a choice of the two, I personally would rather see color accuracy, even if the picture detail is a little soft. Of course, I really want both.

Me it's detail, but my father is color. I have a Toshiba CRT based RPTV, and the greens are really weak on it. Drives my father nuts. I can fix that if I'm viewing through my MyHD card, which allows me to adjust each color.

My father on the other hand can't really tell the difference between HD and SD, but he's over 70 and doesn't wear glasses, so that's not too surprising. I've often said in other threads that impressions of HD are dependent on eyesight.

Thanks! I should probably get a TV first though ;) but I may take you up on that at some point, if only to see if I can get SOME signal! You guys are invaluable, I keep wondering how I bought anything before internets - I mean, you could go to the library and read Consumer Reports I guess but...

INTERNET
If you want a more accurate check of reception possibilities, do a survey.
When I do one, I bring at least 3 different antennas, and my meter, which analyzes signal level and quality, and then see how well each antenna does, and where the best location would be for mounting. It can save you a lot of time and ha$$le. You will then know what antenna will work, if you need an amplifier, and how well each station is coming in. Once you know what's possible, you can then purchase what's needed, no guessing, and where and how to mount it. I even have test receivers that can be connected, if needed, to verify a marginal channel. They down convert the HD to a regular signal any TV can display.

In the digital world, installing an antenna can be easy or frustrating. Once you get a picture, it's perfect. If you're just a little beyond what's needed, however, you get nothing, even though it might be almost there. You can't really tell if it's a strong or weak signal, and if it's level enough across the whole bandwidth of each channel to make it work reliably. There is a "signal quality" indicator on most receivers that will give you some idea of how good the signal to noise ratio is (reads from 0-100% or more, some just say from bad to good), but it can be deceiving as to what's really happening. If everything comes in fine, great. But if there's problems with one or two channels, then it becomes trial and error. Depends on how much time and energy you want to put in to it.
Call if you have questions or need help.
Dan
206-794-3993

In the digital world, installing an antenna can be easy or frustrating. Once you get a picture, it's perfect. If you're just a little beyond what's needed, however, you get nothing, even though it might be almost there. You can't really tell if it's a strong or weak signal, and if it's level enough across the whole bandwidth of each channel to make it work reliably. There is a "signal quality" indicator on most receivers that will give you some idea of how good the signal to noise ratio is (reads from 0-100% or more, some just say from bad to good), but it can be deceiving as to what's really happening.

Dan knows a lot more about this than I do, but after doing a lot of trial and error as described, I found what worked was adjusting the antenna into a station using the analog station. It's easy to see ghosts, etc. with analog. Since they broadcast from the same location, I think that's a good way to get the aiming issues resolved (although you could still have location issues).

I'd be interested in Dan's comments on doing this.

Dan knows a lot more about this than I do, but after doing a lot of trial and error as described, I found what worked was adjusting the antenna into a station using the analog station. It's easy to see ghosts, etc. with analog. Since they broadcast from the same location, I think that's a good way to get the aiming issues resolved (although you could still have location issues).

I'd be interested in Dan's comments on doing this.

Karyk
Your method works fine. It does require the two-person method, one watches the TV and shouts, the other moves the antenna. Of course, cell phones work better! Or, you take a small TV up on the roof, which is kind of a pain. Usually it's too bright to see it well. I cover the TV with a big dark towel, which gets interesting, because you're also trying to aim the antenna and not fall off the roof! ANALOG reception is the one case where a meter only gets you close, actual aiming while viewing is the best method. Doing it around dusk works great. If you use analog channels to aim for digital, KONG 16 gets you Queen Anne Hill (4-5-7-16) and KTBW 22 gets you Capital Hill (9-11-22). KCPQ 13 doesn't have anything in UHF to aim at, so point towards Bremerton, and then slightly south of that (Gold Mountain). BTW, trying to get 13 analog is a bear, because it's transmitted in different pattern than the others, so don't be surprised at poor results. Call if you need details.

All this is fine for analog, but as you would expect, digital is better and worse.
Better, because, once you lock in, it's perfect. Worse, because of the way the signal decoders work. You could find that aiming the antenna dead-on to the tower doesn't work, but because of some multipath problem, requires you to aim it a little off axis, and then the signal comes in fine.
But wait, there's more!
Depending on trees, terrain, trees, buildings, trees, actual channel frequency(wavelength) and other obstructions, (did I mention trees?) you could end up aiming the antenna anywhere over a 45 degree spread left or or right from the true direction, AND it still works fine. Or, for the same reasons above, find that moving it 2 nano-degrees (cool measurement term for the width of a gnats eyebrow) will make or break reception. And if you're really lucky, have several stations that are that fussy! This is where you start moving the location of the antennas mounting point, up/down/left/right/forward/backward.
It's not just an adventure, it's a job!

The reason aiming is so inexact, is the actual signal is huge, or wide in bandwidth terms. The receivers decoder needs to see the whole 6mhz wide signal coming in fairly level or flat on a scope display. If it looks like this on a scope ------------ it's perfect and obviously one of the Great Lies ! If it's a little bumpy ~~~~~~~ then you may still be okay. Even if it's ~~~^~^ you might still be good. This is bad ^v^v--^ Sometimes it looks like a ramp going up or down. Even this can work if it's not too much change. Decoders generally can't handle more than 10db of change across the channel. This is where an analyzer meter comes in when I aim an antenna, or look for the best location. Small changes, for any of the above reasons, can make a huge difference in results.
And then there's the variable of signal through trees. When viewed on the scope, and there's a small breeze, the pattern can change, sometimes drastically, from flat to ugly and back in an instant. Trying to aim under these conditions can be real fun, and is why some people get things working just fine, then they suddenly quit when it gets breezy and/or wet. You can watch this on a scope, and is a big clue to a tough location. A lot of people would be very surprised at how ugly their signal actually is, but because of a good receiver, or it's just above the minimum required, the picture is fine.

The truth about aiming.
It's not just what direction, but also depends, equally, on what antenna, conditions, location, etc. Trying to be exact is usually NOT that important. Your method of getting it close is fine. Or guesstimate it on a map with directions from antennaweb. After that, watch the "strength indicator" and picture to see what works. Some suggest tilting it up or down slightly, specially when you're going over a hill or are very close to the towers. I found it makes no difference on an average install. You MIGHT see a tiny amount of change on an analyzer, but the end result is the same, 99% of the time, from my experience. If you were doing a stacked array of 10ft to 15ft long yagis, then yes, it most definitely makes huge difference, but that's another story. (If anyone needs more info on that, call me when you have an hour or two!)

Think that pretty much covers it.
Now where did I set my Diet Dr Pepper......
need a big gulp.

Dan

.... And if you're really lucky, have several stations that are that fussy! This is where you start moving the location of the antennas mounting point, up/down/left/right/forward/backward.
It's not just an adventure, it's a job!

Dan

Dan, thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, it is a job and yet it's only the beginning.

Then there is the actual installation. It is another job. Factors such as overhead electrical wires, distance to the service entrance ground, an antenna ground rod at a good ground, underground pipes, underground electrical wires, aesthetics, etc, can potentially influence the decision on antenna location.

For most people, having someone install an antenna or two can save time and possibly money -- I won't doubt that some people would end up with one or two antenna going to storage. ;)

Hi,
I've an ATI HDTV card with its inside antenna (like the silver kind) and I get pretty much nothing (got a blimp on channel 25 and 32: enought for one still image of each).
I'm renting a townhome, so I cannot put anything on the roof, but I think I can access the attic.
Before buying a big UHF antenna to put in the attic, I'd really appreciate if any of the forum members with "topo" mapping programs couls see if I've any chance of receiving anything.

I live at the end of 35Th St in Bellevue. nearest crossroad is 148th Ave NE and 35Th St, Bellevue 98007.
End of the street means near a public park. This is pretty much downhill from 148th Ave and has:
- bad analog TV reception (I use cable for analog TV, but I'll check channels 16 and 22 to see how I get them, given that HDTV is supposed to be on the same towers).
- bad cell phone reception (sprint: 0 to 1 bar, Cingular and ATT, 0 to 1 but works, TMobile 0 not work).
For the cell phone, driving to the crossroad of 148th ave and 35th St makes all the difference. And 100 more yeard either side (north or south) on 148th ave and I get full signal on all the cell phone companies.

So I suspect I'm just in some kind of "hell hole" for any RF signal :-(

I've buildings taller than mine (3 stories instead of 2) around, tall trees, you name it.
So I'd love to get advice about "returning all the HW and stick to cable before the wife gets mad" or "buy a good/big antenna to put in the attic". ;)

Thanks in advance.

Hi,
I've an ATI HDTV card with its inside antenna (like the silver kind) and I get pretty much nothing (got a blimp on channel 25 and 32: enought for one still image of each).
...

I assume that an HDTV card resides inside a computer. If so, my experience tells me that an antenna can pick up noise from a nearby computer. The noise will have an impact on the signal to noise ratio of weak or distant stations. I have my laptop 4ft from my silver sensor, and I can correlate reception dropouts and freezes with the turning ON of my laptop.

In your situation, you really have weak signals from 25 and 32. I'm not saying that I have found your reception issue. I'm just saying that the distance of your antenna to the PC should be on your checklist. But then every situation is different. I actually have a home phoneline network that emits 2.5GHz signal.

Some more items that would need to be checked:

Be aware that walls have metal elements that can severely cut off TV signals - so that a good try would be to place an (HDTV rated) antenna near a window that looks out in the direction of the towers -- but I do realize your situation from your description above -- so you can figure out if it is blocked by trees or buildings.

If your fireplace is flush with your room wall - and the fireplace is visible from top to bottom on the outside AND the fireplace faces the towers or 180 degrees off - ie reflection is possible, try pointing your antenna at your fireplace. It may help the closer you can place your antenna to the fireplace. This assumes that your fireplace does not have reenforcing iron. But then I'm just speaking from my experience, I can pick up reflected signals from KOMO-DT and KING-DT off of a building nearby. Of course I can also pick up those station signals head on through another window or by pointing at the fireplace.

Try various heights for the antenna - top of book case, or 5-6 ft high, keeping in mind that the antenna must point to the outside of your home through non-metallic portions of your home - windows, fireplace, sliding doors or sky windows.

Good luck!

Hi,
I've an ATI HDTV card with its inside antenna (like the silver kind) and I get pretty much nothing (got a blimp on channel 25 and 32: enought for one still image of each).
I'm renting a townhome, so I cannot put anything on the roof, but I think I can access the attic.
Before buying a big UHF antenna to put in the attic, I'd really appreciate if any of the forum members with "topo" mapping programs couls see if I've any chance of receiving anything.

I live at the end of 35Th St in Bellevue. nearest crossroad is 148th Ave NE and 35Th St, Bellevue 98007.
End of the street means near a public park. This is pretty much downhill from 148th Ave and has:
- bad analog TV reception (I use cable for analog TV, but I'll check channels 16 and 22 to see how I get them, given that HDTV is supposed to be on the same towers).
- bad cell phone reception (sprint: 0 to 1 bar, Cingular and ATT, 0 to 1 but works, TMobile 0 not work).
For the cell phone, driving to the crossroad of 148th ave and 35th St makes all the difference. And 100 more yeard either side (north or south) on 148th ave and I get full signal on all the cell phone companies.

So I suspect I'm just in some kind of "hell hole" for any RF signal :-(

I've buildings taller than mine (3 stories instead of 2) around, tall trees, you name it.
So I'd love to get advice about "returning all the HW and stick to cable before the wife gets mad" or "buy a good/big antenna to put in the attic". ;)

Thanks in advance.

I checked your location and you just barely have line-of-sight to the Seattle transmitters, so going to the attic may work unless you have metal roofing or metal-foil insulation. There is no sure-fire way to predict digital reception. So the best thing is to spend as little money as possible, buy equipment from return-friendly stores and try as many options and locations as you can. A change of 6 inches in antenna location can sometimes make a big difference. Radio Shack takes returns and has a cheap yagi (15-2160) that you could try. The Silver Sensor sold by Sears and others has gotten very good reviews. Fry's in Renton supposedly stocks the Channel Master 4221 which is very good as well.

Thanks all. I'll try some antenna form return-friendly stores.
"the wife" is already pissed off that I buy gadgets that do not work ;-)
I'll give it a serious try this week-end and follow the advices (attic, far from computer... I also have a wireless access point not too far and the neighborhood is full of it (I can get signal for a dozen different WiFi APs from my apartment). That's 2.4 GHz and I've no clue if and how that could affect TV reception, but I guess that can always add more noise :-(

Thanks all. I'll try some antenna form return-friendly stores.
"the wife" is already pissed off that I buy gadgets that do not work ;-)
I'll give it a serious try this week-end and follow the advices (attic, far from computer... I also have a wireless access point not too far and the neighborhood is full of it (I can get signal for a dozen different WiFi APs from my apartment). That's 2.4 GHz and I've no clue if and how that could affect TV reception, but I guess that can always add more noise :-(

tperraut
I have found wireless, both 2 & 5 gig, doesn't seem to bother HD reception, as least for the channels we have around here. Computers and monitors can, if you get the antenna close enough, and they're not sealed well enough to stop random RF.
What you DO have problems with is the trees on the hill to the west. From about 134th to 122ndNE, it's packed with very tall, thick trees. Our topo programs don't show that, but if you've ever driven through Bridle Trails area, you know it's going to be a problem for ch's 4-5-7-16. It's a challenge just trying to get reception on top of the hill. Signal is there, just gets really chopped up by all those trees. You're getting a little bit of ch25(KTWB22) from Capital Hill because you're just going around the south end of the hill, and 25 is pretty strong there. Ch32 is PAX33, and comes from Tiger Mt., basically line of sight to you. Surprised you aren't also getting 51 or 56, the Shopping channels, as they also come from Tiger Mt. I'm sure you really wanted to see them in hi-def .....

As mentioned above, trial and error is going to be the only way you'll get there. The 4221 or the 15-2160 are going to be your best bets. Don't use an amplifier.
Also, if you have a balcony that faces west, or south and you can see west, there are ways to mount an antenna to the balcony that won't get you in trouble, and will help enormously with reception. I've put an antenna on a 5ft mast, set it into a 5 gallon bucket, filled with small size gravel to keep it in place, and then set it where it can see over the railing, and it works pretty well. Nothing is secured to the building, so they can't say much. Easy to disassemble when you move.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

I've put an antenna on a 5ft mast, set it into a 5 gallon bucket, filled with small size gravel to keep it in place, and then set it where it can see over the railing, and it works pretty well. Nothing is secured to the building, so they can't say much. Easy to disassemble when you move.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

5ft is the magic height. It's about half way from floor to ceiling. It keeps an antenna at a distance off electrical wiring on the floor and in the ceiling. I have attached a "silver sensor" with ductape to a 5 ft mast and it works wonders on the weak channels - the two marginal channels that are prone to dropouts when I turn on my laptop, in my case UHF 14 and UHF 19 (Ch 20-1 and 24-1 respectively).

Fry's in Renton supposedly stocks the Channel Master 4221 which is very good as well.

Last time I was there for antennas (back in March) they only carried the 4228, not the 4221. The only place local I knew of to get the 4221 was Pringles and even they didn't have them in stock when I called, they said they'd have to order. I found it cheapest and quickest to order directly from Solid Signal online. I think I had it on my doorstep about 2 days after I placed the order. It is a great antenna.

5ft is the magic height. It's about half way from floor to ceiling. It keeps an antenna at a distance off electrical wiring on the floor and in the ceiling. I have attached a "silver sensor" with ductape to a 5 ft mast and it works wonders on the weak channels - the two marginal channels that are prone to dropouts when I turn on my laptop, in my case UHF 14 and UHF 19 (Ch 20-1 and 24-1 respectively).

I'll try that. I alreayd got some great results last night. Still with the same antenna.
I was able to get a few stations fine (60-70% whatever that means on my Tuner card, SNR is usually in dB, but I think that's "signal for dummies"), and many stations with no signal but they were close to work.
So I've good hope that a good antenna (higher) will help me.
I also tried with and without my wireless AP on and that did not made even 1% of
difference - I feel better about that.

I do not know why the day before I couldn't get anything.
Note, I'm getting the stations on compas 240 o from my home. I did not try the other more South, I was too happy to get some signal and to tyr to aim for it better already (pointing the antenna much higher up than the standard design helped get almost 10% better signal).

Thx.

BTW, do you folks buy the antenna cable by the feet and do the connections by yourself? ("RG-6 quad-shield" seems to be what is needed, reading from other posts) Or so you buy it from places like radio-shack already done? Any quality advantage in doing it by yourself besides cutting the length to only what is needed? Any kind of "F" connector to use or avoid? (gold-platted or things like that if they exist).
Thx (obvious newbie to HDTV, but used to soldering...)

I have bought mine by the foot and used the Rat shack water proof connectors. If you buy the tools it is pretty easy to do. Of course Rat shack does not sell it by the foot anymore. So for convenience you could buy a 50 or 100 ft prefabricated at the shack and just use one prefabricated connector and then cut it to length with you adding the cut to fit end connector. I don't know where to get Quad Shield in Bellevue bulk but I believe Pringle Electronics’ in Everett carries it. A lot cheaper than at Rat Shack too. (425) 258-6161

No difference in quality. Parts are the same. And you can make quality connections with a little practice. I always use weatherproof connectors.

BTW, do you folks buy the antenna cable by the feet and do the connections by yourself? ("RG-6 quad-shield" seems to be what is needed, reading from other posts) Or so you buy it from places like radio-shack already done? Any quality advantage in doing it by yourself besides cutting the length to only what is needed? Any kind of "F" connector to use or avoid? (gold-platted or things like that if they exist).
Thx (obvious newbie to HDTV, but used to soldering...)

tperraut
Home Depot used to have it by the foot. The fitting doesn't need to be gold plated. The twist on type are not the best. It's easy to get stray noise from not doing it right. Crimp or compression is fine, just take your time and do it right. There isn't that much loss in a 50ft premade piece. Not enough to make a difference where you are. If you're worried, cut off the extra. Again, it's far more important to put the fitting on right. And be careful of the cable, too. Don't kink it or step on it. It may look okay, but you can damage it enough to make a difference on one channel.
Dan

BTW, do you folks buy the antenna cable by the feet and do the connections by yourself? ("RG-6 quad-shield" seems to be what is needed, reading from other posts) Or so you buy it from places like radio-shack already done? Any quality advantage in doing it by yourself besides cutting the length to only what is needed? Any kind of "F" connector to use or avoid? (gold-platted or things like that if they exist).
Thx (obvious newbie to HDTV, but used to soldering...)

tperraut,

You can buy RG6QS cable with premade connectors at Lowes. You can also buy RG6QS by the foot at Home Depot, and the RG6QS connector too. You only need to buy cables without connectors if you want to thread the cable through a small hole in the wall, OR if you are in need of cable cut to exact length for neatness.

In theory, a coiled cable could possibly impede UHF signals. But it remains to be measured by someone who has the instrumentation to do the measurement.

tperraut,

You can buy RG6QS cable with premade connectors at Lowes. You can also buy RG6QS by the foot at Home Depot, and the RG6QS connector too. You only need to buy cables without connectors if you want to thread the cable through a small hole in the wall, OR if you are in need of cable cut to exact length for neatness.

In theory, a coiled cable could possibly impede UHF signals. But it remains to be measured by someone who has the instrumentation to do the measurement.

swwg
Coiled RG6 will not impede signal any more than if it were straight. If it was coiled tighter than about a 4" radius, which would damage the cable somewhat, then you would affect signal. Old style braided copper shield coax cable can have problems, sometimes, when it's coiled and the signal is hot enough.

Where you run into the coil problem is with the old flat twin-lead, 300ohm unshielded antenna wire. I learned it the hard way, at the ripe old age of 7 or 8, trying to help my dad on a TV service call. The customer wanted to have enough wire to be able to move the TV to either side of the living room. When it was on the side by the wall outlet, where the cable came in, there was an extra12-15ft. I thought it would be helpful to coil it up and hang it on the back of the set. I even used electrical tape to keep it nice and tight, in an 8-10" diameter circle. Everything was fine until the customer went for channel 5, zip! All other channels came in fine. Dad tore into the set, suspecting tuner problems, all tubes checked okay, and he even swapped out the tuner, to be sure. Just about when he was ready to haul it back to the shop, he found the coiled wire problem. The TV was still running when he disconnected the antenna from the set, and when he brushed the antenna terminals with his hand, ch5 started to come in again. He removed the tape from the coil of wire and let it fall to the floor, BOOM! All was good again.
That was my introduction to RF inductance.

Amazing how you learn and retain things when you have to fix a screw up !!

Dan

I finally got a chance to go up on the roof. I just used the indoor antenna (because that's what I have) along with a new 50' run of RG6 QS that I picked up. I was able to get digital 5, 7, and 13 with different orientations, but could not get 4. My line of sight was over the houses in the neighborhood, and the only thing that stuck out at me was a patch of deciduous trees about 200 yards away. It didn't seem that they would be causing problems, though. I was disappointed that even going up high I couldn't get all the channels.

I may try the silver sensor to see if I have any luck, but I'm guessing that I'll need something external. Has anyone had success with the RCA ANT706 (http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI700817-CI210,00.html))? Are there any good smaller outdoor antennas or antennas that don't need to be mounted on the roof that you would recommend? It sounds like the 4221 and 15-2160 are the most recommended outdoor antennas. Is one any better in specific situations that the other? Is it possible that either of these would work mounted on the side of a house rather than above the roof? (Obviously reception would be better at greater heights.)

Making much progress :)
I went to Vetco in Bellevue, got some RG6-quad-shield and used their tools to fit the plugs. I've 50 feet but once I've the "final" antenna HW set-up, I'll most likely cut it to length + few feets margin.

Just to try it, I bought a "cheap" indoor antenna from Radio-Shack. $40, model 15-1870, amplified (variable up to 24dB) rotating antenna. Fancy but of course mostly useless. Does slightly better on some DTV channels than the ATI antenna (identical to silver sensor), worst on others.
Only good thing, I was able to see that the amp could saturate on 2 stations if set too high.

So I used my 'new' cable and put the "silver" on the "floor" in the attic (without the wife noticing ;-) ) as most of the 2nd floor room did not provide good reception. Huge difference. I receive pretty much everything I should be able to receive.

Now the only 2 really problematic stations are 18 (FOX KCPQ-DT 18.1) and 48 (NBC KING-DT 5.1).
I get a better signal but not good enough for these.
18: 8 to 34% (also 1 to 2 bar out of 5) gets some sound and picture, but not often.
48: 4 to 21% no sound nor picture.
With my tuner, no chance to get a continuous picture below 50, and 65 to 70 is a nice result. Best I get is 25 (WB KTWB-DT 25.1) with 85% and 5 bar out of 5

Now the compas angle for 18 is 240 degrees 31.3 miles, 48 is 247 degrees and 9.4 miles from my home. [WB is 238 degrees and 25 miles away]

So I somehow expected to do better on these 2.

My current problems:
1) troubleshoot 18 and 48: if 48 is really near, do I receive too much signal for my own good? I kind of doubt it. Multipath problems?
2) find the best "real" antenna to buy now for the attic.
Directional or not, I'm still not sure.
directional: Channelmaster 4248 seems to have lots of recommendations.
antennasdirect SR15 (11dB gain) or X14XG (14.2 dB gain) 43XG (15.7 dB) or some other models could be good too. Biggest one is longer than the 4248.

non directional: Channelmaster 4228 maybe?
antennasdirect DB4 seems to be good too. That store told me they have some customers near me using that model and doing good.

Any advice here from the experts? Antennasdirects allows return of the antennas for full refund and their antennas are relatevely cheap (but pays UPS both ways might make that useless).


3) Once I have a better antenna, find out if I should or can use an antenna amplifier (like the ChannelMaster 7777 or 7778, not sure which is best).
Problem, it does 26 or 23 dB of amplification for UHF and I know from experience with the indoor antenna that this is too much for some channels. Given a better antenna -> stronger signal to start with (but less noise), that seems still somewhat dangerous. Any advice here would be best (put something to reduce the signal 1st, but would it be ok for hard to receive channels?) Or get a different brand/model of amp with less amplification but still low noise? (antennasdirect has one model +16 dB, 2.5dB noise max, characteristis look good).

Where do you guys buy your antennas? Any local store? starkelectronic ? antennasdirect ? weisd ? audio-direct ? Other?
I've no experience with these stores, so I'm not advertising them. Just trying to figure out what store does a good job/good price.

Where do you guys buy your antennas? Any local store? starkelectronic ? antennasdirect ? weisd ? audio-direct ? Other?
I've no experience with these stores, so I'm not advertising them. Just trying to figure out what store does a good job/good price.

I bought my CM4221 from Solid Signal online. I also checked Pringles up in Everett. They would have had to special order it, and it would have been more than Solid Signal charged with shipping. I haven't tried to return via Solid Signal, but hear they are pretty easy to return with. Pringles does not allow returns at all on antennas. Once you buy it, it is yours. I think I paid about $30.00 including shipping for my 4221.

If you are looking for a quick check to see if that is the right antenna you can go to Fry's in Renton and they stock the CM4228, and they allow full refunds up to 30 days after purchase. I belive it's about $50.00 there. Twice the size of a CM4221 but similar results. The 4228 is actually a bit more directional than the 4221. I used one for about a month but found that the 4221 did a better job of picking up stations so I returned the 4228.

If you are looking at putting it in your attic though you might not be able to actually fit the 4228 through your attic entrance. Something to check before buying.

I finally got a chance to go up on the roof. I just used the indoor antenna (because that's what I have) along with a new 50' run of RG6 QS that I picked up. I was able to get digital 5, 7, and 13 with different orientations, but could not get 4. My line of sight was over the houses in the neighborhood, and the only thing that stuck out at me was a patch of deciduous trees about 200 yards away. It didn't seem that they would be causing problems, though. I was disappointed that even going up high I couldn't get all the channels.

For ch. 4 did you get anything at all on the signal indicator? If you do, a high gain antenna can improve it.

I may try the silver sensor to see if I have any luck, but I'm guessing that I'll need something external. Has anyone had success with the RCA ANT706 (http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI700817-CI210,00.html))? Are there any good smaller outdoor antennas or antennas that don't need to be mounted on the roof that you would recommend? It sounds like the 4221 and 15-2160 are the most recommended outdoor antennas. Is one any better in specific situations that the other? Is it possible that either of these would work mounted on the side of a house rather than above the roof? (Obviously reception would be better at greater heights.)

It depends. From previous posts, I read that you are quite a distance from the TV transmitters. Whether or not you can get any signal at the side of the house, it all depends on the signal that arrives around the outside of your house. In your case, you are looking at marginal signal levels. You can either hire someone to measure it (good instruments are very expensive), OR you can test it yourself using a reasonably good antenna.

If you stick with yagi, bay, or log periodic, your chances of getting good results are quite good provided there is sufficient TV signals arriving at the outside of your house. Of course, you may want to test other types if you enjoy doing it and if you can spare the time. Log periodic type like the silver sensor has 6.5-7dBi gain (in reality it depends on the design). Note the i after the dB. It's not the same as amplifier gain. If you don't know what it means, you can find it on the Internet. An indoor antenna with loop UHF element averages about 2.5 dBi gain. RS does not publish much technical data on the 15-2160 but someone said it is like a small Channel Master yagi. The CM 4221 bay antenna varies in gain from 8 dBi to 15 dBi over channels 14-69. To complicate matters further, antenna gain, directional characteristics, and front to back ratio come into play. You would need enough of antenna gain to get a signal lock on digital reception.

Good luck!

Just thought I would post the results of a little experiment I and a friend performed this Saturday afternoon. We went to one of the higher points in central Washington State that is accessible by road and set up my Sammy T150 receiver, an LCD monitor and a tripod. On the tripod we mounted a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi and later a CM 4221. There were two clusters of DT towers we were after. One being Spokane, WA - 110 miles away and the tri-cities area near the Columbia River (84 miles away). Our elevation was about 2200 feet and the transmitters all average about 2500 feet above sea level. To our amazement, we pulled in steady signals from 3 stations in Spokane and 4 in the tri-cities area (all UHF). The 4221 and the 15-2160 worked about equally well with the edge going to the RS unit by a tad. Nether of these are high-gain units. Only one of the 7 stations is at 1-MW ERP. Most are in the 200 kW range, one at 47 kW. Being done in the middle of the day it unlikely there was much (if any) help from atmospheric ducting. Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way. Fortunately there is nothing but flatland between us and the towers. Our attempts to pick up Seattle stations yielded only an occasional blip on the T150's signal meter. Considering the Cascade Mountains are in the way, that is about what we expected. So, as in real estate, the 3 most important things for DT are location, location, location (or elevation, elevation, elevation :) ). This more or less proved the theory that you don't need a 1 MW signal to go a long ways. The 47 KW station at 84 miles was rather pixelated at times but watchable. The others showed no breakups over a 15-minute period. So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.

Just thought I would post the results of a little experiment I and a friend performed this Saturday afternoon. We went to one of the higher points in central Washington State that is accessible by road and set up my Sammy T150 receiver, an LCD monitor and a tripod. On the tripod we mounted a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi and later a CM 4221. There were two clusters of DT towers we were after. One being Spokane, WA - 110 miles away and the tri-cities area near the Columbia River (84 miles away). Our elevation was about 2200 feet and the transmitters all average about 2500 feet above sea level. To our amazement, we pulled in steady signals from 3 stations in Spokane and 4 in the tri-cities area (all UHF). The 4221 and the 15-2160 worked about equally well with the edge going to the RS unit by a tad. Nether of these are high-gain units. Only one of the 7 stations is at 1-MW ERP. Most are in the 200 kW range, one at 47 kW. Being done in the middle of the day it unlikely there was much (if any) help from atmospheric ducting. Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way. Fortunately there is nothing but flatland between us and the towers. Our attempts to pick up Seattle stations yielded only an occasional blip on the T150's signal meter. Considering the Cascade Mountains are in the way, that is about what we expected. So, as in real estate, the 3 most important things for DT are location, location, location (or elevation, elevation, elevation :) ). This more or less proved the theory that you don't need a 1 MW signal to go a long ways. The 47 KW station at 84 miles was rather pixelated at times but watchable. The others showed no breakups over a 15-minute period. So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.

That's very interesting. Yes, elevation, elevation and elevation are the three most important factors. I did notice that folks who live at higher elevation have antenna at about the same height as the gutters of their one story house.

It's good to know that the RS 15-2160 performs very well 'cause I'm thinking about installing the one that I bought two months ago as soon as I find the best location. For now, my silver sensor is doing a decent job pulling in a Bellingham TV station located 67 miles north of here.

Quarque, I am curious about the elevation at 1st NE and NE 185th St. in Shoreline, 98155. Will you please find it for me? Thanks in advance.

Just thought I would post the results of a little experiment I and a friend performed this Saturday afternoon. We went to one of the higher points in central Washington State that is accessible by road and set up my Sammy T150 receiver, an LCD monitor and a tripod. On the tripod we mounted a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi and later a CM 4221. There were two clusters of DT towers we were after. One being Spokane, WA - 110 miles away and the tri-cities area near the Columbia River (84 miles away). Our elevation was about 2200 feet and the transmitters all average about 2500 feet above sea level. To our amazement, we pulled in steady signals from 3 stations in Spokane and 4 in the tri-cities area (all UHF). The 4221 and the 15-2160 worked about equally well with the edge going to the RS unit by a tad. Nether of these are high-gain units. Only one of the 7 stations is at 1-MW ERP. Most are in the 200 kW range, one at 47 kW. Being done in the middle of the day it unlikely there was much (if any) help from atmospheric ducting. Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way. Fortunately there is nothing but flatland between us and the towers. Our attempts to pick up Seattle stations yielded only an occasional blip on the T150's signal meter. Considering the Cascade Mountains are in the way, that is about what we expected. So, as in real estate, the 3 most important things for DT are location, location, location (or elevation, elevation, elevation :) ). This more or less proved the theory that you don't need a 1 MW signal to go a long ways. The 47 KW station at 84 miles was rather pixelated at times but watchable. The others showed no breakups over a 15-minute period. So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.

quarque
Very interesting info. Where were you testing from? I would like to look it up.
There's another thing that you need to take into account on your test. Background noise. I would bet there wasn't much around you if you were out in the boonies. I would've loved to have seen what the signal looked like on the meter. It also backs up something I discovered when the first T-150's came out. They have very good sensitivity. Did a job in Mill Creek country club area, north side of the golf course. Site was buried in the trees. Looked like initially, maybe one or two channels only, but the customer only wanted the one semi good channel, so I tweaked it as good as could be for that. Hooked it up, did a scan and BOOM!! Every channel came in !!! I would've bet my van he was only good for two channels at most. Absolutely amazed. However, after that, I only got mixed results with it and the later T-151, but it still did a very respectable job. I chalked it up to a good one that came off the assembly line. And then, every once in a while, I run across one, or a SRT-165 or 360 that just does an amazing job. I wish they could've made them more consistent. Never have seen another brand that would match that one in Mill Creek for dealing with an ugly signal.

I'm very tempted to go off into the hills on a sunny day to try an experiment for Seattle and Portland, or maybe for Canadian stations. Or, maybe you'd like to tag along?!



swwg
Elevation is 432ft give-R-take.

Dan

I finally got a chance to go up on the roof. I just used the indoor antenna (because that's what I have) along with a new 50' run of RG6 QS that I picked up. I was able to get digital 5, 7, and 13 with different orientations, but could not get 4. My line of sight was over the houses in the neighborhood, and the only thing that stuck out at me was a patch of deciduous trees about 200 yards away. It didn't seem that they would be causing problems, though. I was disappointed that even going up high I couldn't get all the channels.

I may try the silver sensor to see if I have any luck, but I'm guessing that I'll need something external. Has anyone had success with the RCA ANT706 (http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI700817-CI210,00.html))? Are there any good smaller outdoor antennas or antennas that don't need to be mounted on the roof that you would recommend? It sounds like the 4221 and 15-2160 are the most recommended outdoor antennas. Is one any better in specific situations that the other? Is it possible that either of these would work mounted on the side of a house rather than above the roof? (Obviously reception would be better at greater heights.)

snooby
The 4421 and 15-2160 can be mounted to the side of the house, or wood enclosed chimney with a 15-883 bracket from Radioshack. You only need a 6" piece of pipe between the two brackets to mount the 15-2160. For the 4221, use about a 30" piece. The RCA antenna you mentioned looks pretty whimpy. Yes, a clump of trees 200 yards away can affect signal on one or more channels. I relearned that one just a few days ago over by Valley General hospital, just south of Renton. All other channels came screaming in, had to attenuate it. But ch 4 was lousy, no matter what I tried. Had to go 100ft away to the neighbors house to see around them, then everything was fine. Like your site, after those trees, there was nothing in the way, line of sight. Go figure.
You will most likely need a preamp, too, but try the antenna without first. You could try one of the Radioshack preamps, and if you see an improvement, but still don't get all the channels, then return it and get a Channel Master 7775.
As long as you can see over or around your neighbors house, you'll be fine. You can also try down low, say 8ft above the ground, as long as you can see past the neighbor. Surprisingly, I sometimes get a better signal by going under the trees.

Like quarque said earlier, you never know what will work until you try.
Dan

Making much progress :)
I went to Vetco in Bellevue, got some RG6-quad-shield and used their tools to fit the plugs. I've 50 feet but once I've the "final" antenna HW set-up, I'll most likely cut it to length + few feets margin.

Just to try it, I bought a "cheap" indoor antenna from Radio-Shack. $40, model 15-1870, amplified (variable up to 24dB) rotating antenna. Fancy but of course mostly useless. Does slightly better on some DTV channels than the ATI antenna (identical to silver sensor), worst on others.
Only good thing, I was able to see that the amp could saturate on 2 stations if set too high.

So I used my 'new' cable and put the "silver" on the "floor" in the attic (without the wife noticing ;-) ) as most of the 2nd floor room did not provide good reception. Huge difference. I receive pretty much everything I should be able to receive.

Now the only 2 really problematic stations are 18 (FOX KCPQ-DT 18.1) and 48 (NBC KING-DT 5.1).
I get a better signal but not good enough for these.
18: 8 to 34% (also 1 to 2 bar out of 5) gets some sound and picture, but not often.
48: 4 to 21% no sound nor picture.
With my tuner, no chance to get a continuous picture below 50, and 65 to 70 is a nice result. Best I get is 25 (WB KTWB-DT 25.1) with 85% and 5 bar out of 5

Now the compas angle for 18 is 240 degrees 31.3 miles, 48 is 247 degrees and 9.4 miles from my home. [WB is 238 degrees and 25 miles away]

So I somehow expected to do better on these 2.

My current problems:
1) troubleshoot 18 and 48: if 48 is really near, do I receive too much signal for my own good? I kind of doubt it. Multipath problems?
2) find the best "real" antenna to buy now for the attic.
Directional or not, I'm still not sure.
directional: Channelmaster 4248 seems to have lots of recommendations.
antennasdirect SR15 (11dB gain) or X14XG (14.2 dB gain) 43XG (15.7 dB) or some other models could be good too. Biggest one is longer than the 4248.

non directional: Channelmaster 4228 maybe?
antennasdirect DB4 seems to be good too. That store told me they have some customers near me using that model and doing good.

Any advice here from the experts? Antennasdirects allows return of the antennas for full refund and their antennas are relatevely cheap (but pays UPS both ways might make that useless).


3) Once I have a better antenna, find out if I should or can use an antenna amplifier (like the ChannelMaster 7777 or 7778, not sure which is best).
Problem, it does 26 or 23 dB of amplification for UHF and I know from experience with the indoor antenna that this is too much for some channels. Given a better antenna -> stronger signal to start with (but less noise), that seems still somewhat dangerous. Any advice here would be best (put something to reduce the signal 1st, but would it be ok for hard to receive channels?) Or get a different brand/model of amp with less amplification but still low noise? (antennasdirect has one model +16 dB, 2.5dB noise max, characteristis look good).

Where do you guys buy your antennas? Any local store? starkelectronic ? antennasdirect ? weisd ? audio-direct ? Other?
I've no experience with these stores, so I'm not advertising them. Just trying to figure out what store does a good job/good price.

tperraut
First, KTWB is only about 10 miles from you, not 25. Tower is on Capital Hill, right next to 9 & 11. Usually, it comes in pretty strong in Bellevue.
For ch48, it normally is a little weaker where you are than the 4 & 7. It's the way the signal is transmitted.
Your real problem is there is a fair amount of signal and it's bouncing around in the attic, AND, the wood also attenuates the signal, somewhat. Worse, it does both of these things in a non linear pattern. That means it will affect each channel in a different way (because of the frequency and locatin of each is different). That's why moving the antenna around is going to make major differences. The 1/4 wavelength of UHF signals is between 4" to 8", so moving the antenna in ANY direction (left/right/up/down/forward/backward), just a little, can make or break the good signal. Yes it really is that touchy, specially in an attic.
The 4248 is too big for most attics, as it's so long you keep running into things. Better is the 15-2160, which Radioshack will take back. It's still a yagi, which will help eliminate some of the bouncing signals (multipath), but small enough that you can maneuver it around. For where you are, it should do pretty well. (note: when you connect the balun to the antenna, try to keep it parallel to the main boom, or mast. Use some electrical tape to hold it in place so it won't move around on you. The directions show how it should look, but they don't tell you about taping it. If it turns and twists up, as you move the antenna around, the wires between the balun and where it actually connects will get twisted together, and that alone will kill a channel.
The 4221 might also work, but needs to be mounted vertically, which once again limits you somewhat as to where you can try it. It also is not as directional, which in your case, is a bad thing.

DO NOT use a preamp! Even with 50ft of coax, there should still be plenty of signal LEVEL to make things work. Your problem will only get worse if you overdrive the receiver. Working indoors you'll pick up a lot more noise and the preamp will amplify that, too. Noise is random data to digital reception, and just confuses the decoder.
What you're trying to accomplish is a clean, flat signal. You can't measure flat with the "strength indicator" on your receiver, so just look for the best numbers possible. The numbers do not correlate directly with amount of signal level, but signal to noise ratio. Again, you should have enough signal level, so just keep trying different locations around the attic. If possible, keep it as level as you can, and elevate it above the wood rafters. Set it on a cardboard box, or whatever will work. Patience is going to be the key. Mark each spot, try all the channels, write down the numbers for each, then move it again, a little bit, and repeat measuring. After a while, a pattern will emerge as to which channels work the best and where. Patience, patience......

May the antenna Gods smile on your quest!
Dan

....

swwg
Elevation is 432ft give-R-take.

Dan

Dan, thank you.

quarque
Very interesting info. Where were you testing from? I would like to look it up.
There's another thing that you need to take into account on your test. Background noise. I would bet there wasn't much around you if you were out in the boonies. I would've loved to have seen what the signal looked like on the meter. It also backs up something I discovered when the first T-150's came out. They have very good sensitivity. Did a job in Mill Creek country club area, north side of the golf course. Site was buried in the trees. Looked like initially, maybe one or two channels only, but the customer only wanted the one semi good channel, so I tweaked it as good as could be for that. Hooked it up, did a scan and BOOM!! Every channel came in !!! I would've bet my van he was only good for two channels at most. Absolutely amazed. However, after that, I only got mixed results with it and the later T-151, but it still did a very respectable job. I chalked it up to a good one that came off the assembly line. And then, every once in a while, I run across one, or a SRT-165 or 360 that just does an amazing job. I wish they could've made them more consistent. Never have seen another brand that would match that one in Mill Creek for dealing with an ugly signal.

I'm very tempted to go off into the hills on a sunny day to try an experiment for Seattle and Portland, or maybe for Canadian stations. Or, maybe you'd like to tag along?!

Dan

Dan - we were near the top of Monument Hill, north of Quincy. Background noise? Hell, we were right next to power lines and a bunch of antennas. There was a sign on the fence surrounding the antenna farm that said "Danger", the radiation level exceeded the FCC recommendation for public exposure! We were about 200 feet down the road from the very top. So far no hair has fallen out or large growths appeared on my skin. :) All that "noise" is at frequencies other than UHF so I doubt it had any real effect on the T150. I think the key reason we had such good reception was the lack of reflected signals - much different than urban areas. And yes, the T150 is a GOOD receiver.

I'd be interested in doing some more of this when the Canadians and parts north get their power up. My summer is pretty well booked with a rec room makeover, vacations etc. Things ease up about mid-September if you're still up for an outing. We need a spot without trees and above 1500 feet if possible.

Why didn't KOMO have the fireworks in HD, or at least 16:9? KING did. I would have expected it to be the other way around.

Why didn't KOMO have the fireworks in HD, or at least 16:9? KING did. I would have expected it to be the other way around.

I thought the same... I turned to KOMO for the first minute or so of the fireworks, and then switched to KING 5 for what I thought was a very well choreographed show. Nice to see the shots in HD.

Did anyone else see the PBS Capitol Fireworks from Washington DC? I noticed that on some of the closeups of the fireworks bursts, there were noticeable artifacts, possibly due to compression? The KING 5 broadcast didn't have any that I could see, so I'm guessing that it's an issue of bandwidth for PBS...

KING's picture was great but they were mostly too zoomed in or too wide. Lk Union and Ivar's sure pailed in comparison to the huge NY display. Too bad there aren't many places to see both Lk Union and Ivars.

At the start of the KING coverage did anyone else hear the two young men talking over Dennis Bounds for about 30 seconds? At first I thought they were technicians for KING but they said things like "we don't know here the hell we are", "they told us us to watch this bombed out building". Weird, sounded like they may have been in Iraq.

Why didn't KOMO have the fireworks in HD, or at least 16:9? KING did. I would have expected it to be the other way around.

Same here, in fact my Dish 942 only has a single OTA tuner so I had to choose which of the 2 to record in HD, figured KOMO would be the likely canidate, and then to my suprise this morning (was outside last night putting on our own fireworks show) I find out it was an SD broadcast and KING had actually broadcast in HD. *sigh* Oh well.

One thing to remember about HD production is that the expense of doing it can rarely be paid for by the revenue generated by it. There are only two HD production trucks that live in the northwest, and one of them costs too much on a daily basis for most local stations to afford (the one that does Mariners for FSN). The one that is reasonably priced is the one that KING used. Until stations can cobble together enough gear to be able to put together a small truck for themselves, it's unlikely that there will be a lot of remote HD production. I'm just throwing a wild educated guess out, but I'll bet there are less then 30 HD cameras in the Puget Sound region that can be used for live, professional remote production.

Thanks for the explanation on the trucks. But that wouldn't explain why KOMO didn't use their 16:9 cameras that they use for news. Even though SD, those have better PQ, IMHO.

Did anyone else see the PBS Capitol Fireworks from Washington DC? I noticed that on some of the closeups of the fireworks bursts, there were noticeable artifacts, possibly due to compression? The KING 5 broadcast didn't have any that I could see, so I'm guessing that it's an issue of bandwidth for PBS...

I saw some pixelization in the KING broadcast--very slight, however, and probably less than 5 instances.

For ch. 4 did you get anything at all on the signal indicator? If you do, a high gain antenna can improve it.

I never saw channel 4 when I was on the roof. I did get a few frames once when I had the antenna inside. Unfortunately, my TV (Samsung HLR-5067W) won't even let me change to a channel if it can't lock. So unless I orient the antenna such that I can change to a channel, I can't check the signal strength. I also have to go to a menu each time I want to check signal strength on a new channel. This TV is not very OTA debug-friendly.

The Jensen antenna has variable amplifier gain up to 30 dB. (I think you were trying to tell me that "antenna gain" and "amplifier gain" are different.) If I don't have it at max, I get poor or no reception of most channels. One thing I didn't try is turning the amplifier down and trying to get 4. I guess it's possible that I'm amplifying a bunch of noise on that channel.

I'm going to get the 15-2160 tomorrow. Hopefully that will at least let me capture the channels so that I can work on locating the best position. I'll let you know how it turns out.

So...July 1st has come and gone. I just got back into town, what's the word with KOMO's stutter problem? Fixed? Anyone watch enough KOMO to get an idea? So far what I've seen tonight has been good, no problems :)

What was supposed to happen by the 1st?

Thanks for the explanation on the trucks. But that wouldn't explain why KOMO didn't use their 16:9 cameras that they use for news. Even though SD, those have better PQ, IMHO.

That would seem like an easy solution on its face, but unfortunately it's not that easy. A camera standing alone recording to a single VTR is a pretty easy task, but when it comes to running multiple cameras through a switcher live, it requires more specialized connections on the cameras, and different types of cables. Without actually seeing the cameras that KOMO uses to shoot news, my experience with that general type of camera tells me that they are unsuitable for multi-camera live production. I'm sure Don W. could expand further, since he's an engineer and I'm not, but basically those cameras wouldn't really work in this application without a great deal of work (if you could get it to work at all).

It's very possible, there, with an outdoor antenna. If you have a clear view to the west/southwest through the trees, signal should be pretty good. Ch5 is always a little weaker, but will work if you find the right spot. Try a 4221, first. It doesn't have to be mounted on the roof. If you can see across the valley from the side of the house, that will work just as good.
Dan

Well I finally got around to buying a CM 3021 which is apparently the same as the 4221 and it works like a champ! I just mounted it to the bottom of a deck post in the backyard 2 inches off the ground and I get all the major channels. Thanks for the advice!

Unfortunately I had some serious freezes and audio drops during Life According to Jim last night. Everything was good it seemed up until then. Rats! Not good, not good.

Unfortunately I had some serious freezes and audio drops during Life According to Jim last night. Everything was good it seemed up until then. Rats! Not good, not good.

Very unfortunate. Would you rule out electrical noise?

Well I finally got around to buying a CM 3021 which is apparently the same as the 4221 and it works like a champ! I just mounted it to the bottom of a deck post in the backyard 2 inches off the ground and I get all the major channels. Thanks for the advice!


tekboy2000
Great!
For those that need one, let us know where you got the 3021 from and how much.
Dan

I got the RS 15-2160 today. I got it home and found out that I need a coaxial to 300 Ohm twin wire converter. Luckly I had one laying around, but it barely fits the width of the two poles. For anyone getting an antenna and reading this, be sure you know what pieces you need!

Just holding it inside on the ground floor I could get 13-1 pretty easily and 5-1 briefly. I went outside and wandered around but couldn't get anything but 13. I even wandered around downstairs and one room upstairs with no luck. (It was getting dark, so I didn't want to go on the roof.) My heart sank - was I doomed to pay Comcast for HD? :(

As a last ditch effort, I put it above my fireplace where the indoor antenna had worked best. Still I didn't get channels until I ran Auto Program. Surprise! 4, 7, 11, 13, 20, 28, and 33. :) I had never gotten 4-1 for more than a frame before, and now it's watchable. I still don't get 5, 9, or 25, but I'm hopeful that I will up on the roof. I get 90% on 13-1 and 40% on 4-1.

As I said, I still need to try the roof, but does it sound like a preamp would help any? Should I wait and see what happens on the roof? Are there any local stores with good return policies that sell the Channel Master 7775?

Other notes:

I'm using a 50' RG6 QS cable.
The 15-2160 says it's for yellow, green, light green, and red zones. Interestingly, the networks are all blue and violet according to antennaweb.
KONG 16 (analog) comes in pretty good with a few slight ghosts.

I got the RS 15-2160 today.



That antenna is made by Antennacraft and is honestly rated.


As a last ditch effort, I put it above my fireplace where the indoor antenna had worked best. Still I didn't get channels until I ran Auto Program. Surprise! 4, 7, 11, 13, 20, 28, and 33. :) I had never gotten 4-1 for more than a frame before, and now it's watchable. I still don't get 5, 9, or 25, but I'm hopeful that I will up on the roof. I get 90% on 13-1 and 40% on 4-1.

As I said, I still need to try the roof, but does it sound like a preamp would help any? Should I wait and see what happens on the roof? Are there any local stores with good return policies that sell the Channel Master 7775?

Other notes:

I'm using a 50' RG6 QS cable.
The 15-2160 says it's for yellow, green, light green, and red zones. Interestingly, the networks are all blue and violet according to antennaweb.
KONG 16 (analog) comes in pretty good with a few slight ghosts.


It is hard to tell if you need an amplifier but my guess is that you may need one to pull in some of the weaker ones. However, from the results you reported, it looks like you may just get everything without an amp. You just need to try it. I can receive violet rated stations using a silver sensor with a 13dB Channel Master amplifier. I would think you would have no problem with the RS yagi + a good amplifier.

tekboy2000
Great!
For those that need one, let us know where you got the 3021 from and how much.
Dan


I ordered it from the local Duvall True Value for $39.98. It only took a couple of days for them to get it in.

I ordered it from the local Duvall True Value for $39.98. It only took a couple of days for them to get it in.

I paid $30.94 including shipping, no tax, and got it in a couple of days from solidsignal.com (AVS sponsor). If you know it's the antenna your going to keep it's a good deal, however if your looking at being able to return you'd want to go local since I assume you'd have to eat shipping costs on a return.

Very unfortunate. Would you rule out electrical noise?

Cant rule anything out, but it was the same behavior as before, a freeze with dropped sound, then continue then another freeze, in little 3 delays.

Cant rule anything out, but it was the same behavior as before, a freeze with dropped sound, then continue then another freeze, in little 3 delays.

If you're only seeing this on KOMO-DT, then it's most likely their problem. They're working on it.

I got the RS 15-2160 today. I got it home and found out that I need a coaxial to 300 Ohm twin wire converter. Luckly I had one laying around, but it barely fits the width of the two poles. For anyone getting an antenna and reading this, be sure you know what pieces you need!

Just holding it inside on the ground floor I could get 13-1 pretty easily and 5-1 briefly. I went outside and wandered around but couldn't get anything but 13. I even wandered around downstairs and one room upstairs with no luck. (It was getting dark, so I didn't want to go on the roof.) My heart sank - was I doomed to pay Comcast for HD? :(

As a last ditch effort, I put it above my fireplace where the indoor antenna had worked best. Still I didn't get channels until I ran Auto Program. Surprise! 4, 7, 11, 13, 20, 28, and 33. :) I had never gotten 4-1 for more than a frame before, and now it's watchable. I still don't get 5, 9, or 25, but I'm hopeful that I will up on the roof. I get 90% on 13-1 and 40% on 4-1.

As I said, I still need to try the roof, but does it sound like a preamp would help any? Should I wait and see what happens on the roof? Are there any local stores with good return policies that sell the Channel Master 7775?

Other notes:

I'm using a 50' RG6 QS cable.
The 15-2160 says it's for yellow, green, light green, and red zones. Interestingly, the networks are all blue and violet according to antennaweb.
KONG 16 (analog) comes in pretty good with a few slight ghosts.


snooby
If the roof doesn't help much, then try a radioshack preamp or 15 to 20 db amp, while on the roof. At your distance and with that antenna, you're not going to overdrive it. If it works better for ch5, then order a 7775. Ch9 doesn't have that much to watch, and it should improve your reception on the others. KONG 16-1 is normally weak. If you don't get it, don't be too surprised.
The color charts for antennas are recommendations in a perfect world, not gospel. There are places close in where it won't work and way out in the boonies where it will. They don't take into account terrain and trees. In short, forget the colors and carry on with your current testing, you're on the right path. Patience. One test in one place doesn't mean it won't work. Try again, other locations, in small increments. Moving the antenna around is going to make major differences. The 1/4 wavelength of UHF signals is between 4" to 8", so moving the antenna in ANY direction (left/right/up/down/forward/backward), just a little, can make or break the good signal. Note: when you connect the balun to the antenna, try to keep it parallel to the main boom, or mast. Use some electrical tape to hold it in place so it won't move around on you. The directions show how it should look, but they don't tell you about taping it. If it turns and twists up, as you move the antenna around, the wires between the balun and where it actually connects will get twisted together, or get too close to the main boom, and that alone will kill a channel. Mark each location or direction aimed, try all the channels, write down the percentage numbers for each, then move it again, a little bit, and repeat measuring. After a while, a pattern will emerge as to which channels work the best and where.
Be careful, take your time. I think you're very close to getting it.
Dan

If you're only seeing this on KOMO-DT, then it's most likely their problem. They're working on it.

Frankly, I call BS on them "working on it." If KOMO wants to show every network program with stutters and lost dialogue, they only thing I can do is change the channel. No other local DTV affiliate has any problem similar to KOMO's problem. You'd think that would be cause enough to light a fire under this issue.

I'm sorry but it is frustrating that in the year plus that I've been pulling KOMO's signal from the air, there has been no sign of real improvement. As they work on it, I continue to watch fewer and fewer shows during primetime on ABC. Lost and Alias were basically unwatchable this year, so those are out. And the movies that I want to watch in HD end up a mess too. Very frustrating for the viewer.

A pre-amp will help!!!

Did an experiment at my dads house today on Anderson Island (Single story house surrounded by huge trees. Middle of Island 207ft elevation (used a gps to find that out)

Equipment:

Rat shack blue rated antenna (99.99$) not sure of the model number, biggest antenna they had.

Viewsonics 15db pre-amp mounted on the antenna boom

Rg-11 cable with Digicon fittings (I work for the big bad cable company)

Samsung 51" dlp

H10 receiver

Without the pre-amp we were getting a max of 40% on channel 4.1,5.1,7.1 with constanst dropouts and tiling.

With the preamp we peaked at 93% and maintained 77% with dropouts (I'm assuming the rain and the wind through the trees accounted for the dropouts)

Turning the antenna towards channels 13.1, execellent picture no dropouts, same with the pbs stations (why so many pbs channels?)

Going to try and tweak the location of the antenna tomarrow. Can't live with the dropouts on 4,5,7 irritating.

Anyone reccomend a better antenna? Trying to find a violet rated antenna

Anyone tried the 135.00 @ antennawarehouse.com? That one looks like a much better antenna.

Thanks

...
Anyone reccomend a better antenna? Trying to find a violet rated antenna

Anyone tried the 135.00 @ antennawarehouse.com? That one looks like a much better antenna.

Thanks

You really can't do better than the Channel Master 4228 8-bay or 4248 Yagi UHF antennas ....
http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/UHFAnts.htm

Note: when you connect the balun to the antenna, try to keep it parallel to the main boom, or mast.
What is the balun? I don't see that labeled in the instructions. It sounds like you may be referring to the 75-ohm to 300-ohm matching transformer. Is that it? Thanks again for your help!

Are there any recommended transformers or are they all the same? I'm using one that I had laying around but it is too short for permanent installation, so I'll need to buy a new one.

Rat shack blue rated antenna (99.99$) not sure of the model number, biggest antenna they had.



Blue rated antenna may be good enough.


Going to try and tweak the location of the antenna tomarrow. Can't live with the dropouts on 4,5,7 irritating.

Anyone reccomend a better antenna? Trying to find a violet rated antenna



Tweaking antenna location AND height can help a lot.

I'd take the violet rating for your dad's location as a guideline only, like a theory that may be oversimplified sometimes. I have a lot of respect for the people who put Antennaweb.org together, and the guideline is a good starting point.

I can pick up a distant (67 miles) station using an indoor log periodic array (LPDA) antenna with a 13 dB amplifier. A indoor LPDA antenna does not have an Antennaweb.org rating at all. I don't get dropouts, only momentary freezes that last 1 second but rarely do I get them. Well I'm NOT recommending it to you, just citing an example.


Anyone tried the 135.00 @ antennawarehouse.com? That one looks like a much better antenna.

Thanks

If you want to try another antenna, I'll second the Channel Master 4228 8-bay antenna, or the 4248 yagi.

What is the balun? I don't see that labeled in the instructions. It sounds like you may be referring to the 75-ohm to 300-ohm matching transformer. Is that it? Thanks again for your help!

Are there any recommended transformers or are they all the same? I'm using one that I had laying around but it is too short for permanent installation, so I'll need to buy a new one.

The balun refers to the 75 to 300 ohm matching transformer. The one you have lying around in the house is likely an indoor unit. If it does not have a rubber hood, it's an indoor unit. Buy one that is for outdoor use - one that is weather sealed and has a hood for the F connector end. You can get them at Lowes or Home Depot.

I went up on the roof today with the RS and had a lot of success. I'm leaving now to get a mounting bracket, and I'll post details later, but I have a few (hopefully) last questions.


Do I need to do anything special to weatherproof the RG6 QS? I know I need a hood on the 75-300 converter. Anything else?
Is there anything I should or shouldn't do while attaching the cable to the roof and side of the house? (Example: Do or don't use staples.)
Anything I should be aware of when putting the cable through the outside wall? I plan to drill (*gasp*) a hole and feed the cord through (with the F connector that was factory installed). I'll probably coil up the extra of the 50' behind the TV.

I went up on the roof today with the RS and had a lot of success. I'm leaving now to get a mounting bracket, and I'll post details later, but I have a few (hopefully) last questions.


Do I need to do anything special to weatherproof the RG6 QS? I know I need a hood on the 75-300 converter. Anything else?
Is there anything I should or shouldn't do while attaching the cable to the roof and side of the house? (Example: Do or don't use staples.)
Anything I should be aware of when putting the cable through the outside wall? I plan to drill (*gasp*) a hole and feed the cord through (with the F connector that was factory installed). I'll probably coil up the extra of the 50' behind the TV.


snooby
Staples are ok if they're the kind that have plastic clips inside the staple, to keep from crushing the cable T-50's). Problem is you need a special stapler to use them. There are cheap staples that have only U shaped ones, but they will pinch it, and all those crushed bits will add up to signal probelems. Plastic U clips with a small nail are okay, but it's very easy to slip and whack the cable. Zip ties with an eye in the end are good, just use a small #8X1" hex head screw and a bit for your drill and it's safe. When you go through the wall, be sure to put some sealer around the entrance hole, and run the cable down the wall past the hole and then bring it back up and in. This is called a drip loop. DO NOT crush the cable flat against the wall where it enters. It will stick out a little, but not much. Coiling up the wire inside is not going to make that much difference, signal wise, just be careful and not kink it.
Let us know what the final result was.
Dan

Use some rtv on the f connectors. Just a little goes a long way. Also as long as you dont have a staple every 3 inches, you will be ok. Too many close together will actually become an antenna. If you really want get picky, use rb2 staples. They are the most pre-cautionary staples you can use. There a big pain the a** too.

Hi,

For those who can receive 33-1, please check 33-2, 33-3, and 33-4. They are multicasting again.

Swwg

Saturday I had found a golden spot after trying about 5 locations and directions. I was getting 7-9 on most of the major networks and getting every channel I cared about (cable channels 4-13). I marked the spot with chalk but forgot to mark it with tape. As you know, it rained Saturday and Sunday, so I lost my mark. :( I went back up there today and got a pretty good location but not as good as Saturday. I still get everything except 11-1. (Does 11 ever broadcast HD Mariner's or anything except UPN shows?) The antenna is mounted, but I still need to finish the guy wires and attaching the wires to the house. I'm still kicking myself for forgetting to tape. Is it possible that the worse weather tonight is really responsible? Even so, the Radio Shack 15-2160 really did work miracles for me (compared with the indoor ones at least).

All my testing thus far was with the wire connected directly to the TV. With this setup, I had 90-100% on 4-1. When I put the Monster surge protector and ChannelMaster grounding block (/static discharge unit) in the line, 4-1 was down to 40-50% and most of the other channels don't come in. I knew that it would lower the signal some, but this was disappointing. I was thinking I would need an amplifier until I went to remove one of the items and suddenly 5 appeared and most of the signals were back near their pre-connection locations. Whew!

In the future, I would like to have a 1-2 splitter in there as well so that I can go to my TV and an HD PVR. That would be a 50' RG6 and 3 PureAV 3' coax cables in series. (I'm just going to run the wire through the wall rather than create a wall connection so that I can avoid one more wire.) Hopefully I still have enough signal for that.

Some questions about grounding:

Do I really need a grounding block? I have a surge protector and the antenna is grounded (the same ground wire goes through the grounding block). This is less of an issue now that I discovered that my channels really work.
Does the grounding wire need to have stand-offs to keep it away from the house? If so, how far off does it need to be?
What special stand-off precautions, if any, do I need to take for going over a gutter.

I don't know if any of you were watching this tonight, but I noticed a couple of things that I thought I'd see if anyone else noticed (or if it's my signal or TV). First, about half way through the movie, the blue bathrobe that Ben Stiller is wearing appeared to be "moving" - the static or whatever was really bad in that color. In some shots, the static in teh back was bad too. Second, I expereinced three one-second pauses at the end of the movie. Were these the KOMO drops that I've heard about or did I perhaps lose signal?

I don't know if any of you were watching this tonight, but I noticed a couple of things that I thought I'd see if anyone else noticed (or if it's my signal or TV). First, about half way through the movie, the blue bathrobe that Ben Stiller is wearing appeared to be "moving" - the static or whatever was really bad in that color. In some shots, the static in teh back was bad too. Second, I expereinced three one-second pauses at the end of the movie. Were these the KOMO drops that I've heard about or did I perhaps lose signal?

I happened to tune in about 5 minutes before the movie ended. I saw the same "pauses" that you saw, and we have seen these before on KOMO-DT network programs only, not on locally-produced HD programs on KOMO (like the news).

I don't know about the blue bathrobe stuff--I was not watching then.

Congratulations on your RS 15-2160 success. It works very well for me too, but it is all about location, location, location, as you have now realized. I'm sure that there are other antenna solutions that would work for you, but we have no idea whether they would be much better or not.

Regarding HD programming on UPN-11 (11-1), I doubt they will have any Mariners games in HD, since we asked their engineer Ron Diotte (an AVS subscriber) and he said likley not. They do periodically have non-UPN Paramount HD movies, but otherwise all programming I have seen in HD is UPN. Are you receiving 9-5 and 22-1 okay? They transmit on towers at the same Capitol Hill site as 11-1.

Regarding grounding blocks and surge protectors, I have read many reports of surge protectors degrading signal levels here on the forum. I have not heard so much on the grounding blocks impeding signals.

Regarding weather impacting signal strengths/quality: For me, when there are leaves on the trees, I am more susceptible to short hits during wet weather, since my antenna orientation points at the tops of some nearby trees. As the trees grow, it could get worse for me unless I elevate my antenna more.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Hopefully you're all watching it now, but I thought I'd post a reminder of a rare chance to see MLB in HD on Fox.

Grounding---

Grounding is always a "good idea".

In case of that sudden lightning strike that happens 2 or 3 times a year up here in sunny WA.

Grounding other than that......not needed.

I mentioned that I worked for the big bad CATV company.

Only reason we ground is because of the FCC. THATS IT!!! There have been a few situations where grounding has kept a house from burning down....luck, only luck...but thats good enough! The statistics tell otherwise. 1 out of millions..well then we get into getting hit by a meteor statistics.

The frequencies used by uhf and vhf are not affected by grounding what so ever (yes I know hardcore RF dudes, but its unmeasurable and won't make a difference nanovolts?????)

Now, if we were operating below 30mhz...yes it makes a difference (I'm a HAM guy also, and have seen 2-3 S-units gained by proper grounding...very rare though)

A ground blocks insertion loss is around a 1/2db. Sometimes a 1/2 makes a difference, especially with digital signals. Your choice.

I have had nothing but bad luck with those power strips that have the coax in/out. Normally tell people not to use it when I show them tv works after bypassing it. Monster cable this and that.....your paying for the name and your paying for your inexperience of electronics (not directed at anyone) You can be told this and that and get a horrible story about not grounding. Its not real world. Its MONEY talking.

Saturday I had found a golden spot after trying about 5 locations and directions. I was getting 7-9 on most of the major networks and getting every channel I cared about (cable channels 4-13). I marked the spot with chalk but forgot to mark it with tape. As you know, it rained Saturday and Sunday, so I lost my mark. :( I went back up there today and got a pretty good location but not as good as Saturday. I still get everything except 11-1. (Does 11 ever broadcast HD Mariner's or anything except UPN shows?) The antenna is mounted, but I still need to finish the guy wires and attaching the wires to the house. I'm still kicking myself for forgetting to tape. Is it possible that the worse weather tonight is really responsible? Even so, the Radio Shack 15-2160 really did work miracles for me (compared with the indoor ones at least).

All my testing thus far was with the wire connected directly to the TV. With this setup, I had 90-100% on 4-1. When I put the Monster surge protector and ChannelMaster grounding block (/static discharge unit) in the line, 4-1 was down to 40-50% and most of the other channels don't come in. I knew that it would lower the signal some, but this was disappointing. I was thinking I would need an amplifier until I went to remove one of the items and suddenly 5 appeared and most of the signals were back near their pre-connection locations. Whew!

In the future, I would like to have a 1-2 splitter in there as well so that I can go to my TV and an HD PVR. That would be a 50' RG6 and 3 PureAV 3' coax cables in series. (I'm just going to run the wire through the wall rather than create a wall connection so that I can avoid one more wire.) Hopefully I still have enough signal for that.

Some questions about grounding:

Do I really need a grounding block? I have a surge protector and the antenna is grounded (the same ground wire goes through the grounding block). This is less of an issue now that I discovered that my channels really work.
Does the grounding wire need to have stand-offs to keep it away from the house? If so, how far off does it need to be?
What special stand-off precautions, if any, do I need to take for going over a gutter.


snooby
Well done on your persistence!
A grounding block is good. Yes, lightning strikes are rare. If you ever see what happens with out it, though, the cost of a few bucks for a ground clamp and/or rod is cheap. Insertion loss in my install experience is more like a tenth or so of a db. YMMV. It's not anything to be concerned about. Same with barrel fittings to join cables together. Not worth worrying over. I also have found the surge protectors cable in/out jacks, including satellite, to have major problems. I just bypass these. Sometimes they work okay, initially, then tank weeks or months later. Go figure. If you have the ground wire on both the antenna mast or clamps, and the cable ground block, and then to a proper ground point, your fine.
I usually zip tie the ground wire to the cable, or staple it to the house with a normal flat stapler, whichever is easier. The ground wire isn't bothered staples. When you go over a gutter with cable, just make a nice loop over it. Don't try to force it too tight so that you kink it. I usually try to do it near one of the gutter supports, so you can zip tie it to some part. Anything to keep the cable from flapping back and forth in the wind on the gutter and wearing through. The gutter won't have any effect on signal through the cable.
Have you tried a preamp? It might be enough to bring in 11.
As for the splitter, easiest way is to just try it. Connect one splitter output cable to your set, as it is now, and the other one to your VCR or some other antenna input, just so you have a proper termination. If all is still good, no problem. Otherwise, you may need a preamp. Just split the signal after the power supply.

Dan

Has anyone had success in getting an HD-waiver from Kiro for Dish Network CBS-HD? I have left numerous vm and emails but get no replies.