Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 14

quarque

07-13-05, 11:18 PM

It's been a long time since I've checked with this board. Here's my situation. I've got an Antenna's Direct DB2 on my Sammamish Plateau home. It works ok during the day, but lately, the night signal is virtually non-existent.

Is there anyway to boost the power or something? Perhaps could it be something with the antenna or a change in the transmissions?

Sorry for the basic questions--I just don't know. Football season is coming and I need strong HD. Thanks.

If anything, you may need less signal, not more. The big difference between day and night is the atmosphere. At night when things calm down there are "smooth boundaries" that form at various altitudes. These turn into giant mirrors and reflect some HD back to the ground. The only things I know to try are:
1) add a variable attenuator (Radio Shack) - cheap
2) tilt the antenna up and/or down to change the virtical reception lobes orientation (decreases sensitivity to the reflection)
3) try moving the antenna up/down/left/right/forward/back to see if that helps
4) try a yagi style antenna instead of DB2 bowtie design - RS 15-2160 is cheap
5) try a more directional antenna CM 4228 (or DB4) or CM 4248 (WITH an attenuator)

What does your signal meter on the receiver look like at night? Bouncing? Steady zero? Are all channels the same daytime and night?

quarque

07-13-05, 11:45 PM

Grounding---

Grounding is always a "good idea".

In case of that sudden lightning strike that happens 2 or 3 times a year up here in sunny WA.

Grounding other than that......not needed.

I mentioned that I worked for the big bad CATV company.

Only reason we ground is because of the FCC. THATS IT!!! There have been a few situations where grounding has kept a house from burning down....luck, only luck...but thats good enough! The statistics tell otherwise. 1 out of millions..well then we get into getting hit by a meteor statistics.

The frequencies used by uhf and vhf are not affected by grounding what so ever (yes I know hardcore RF dudes, but its unmeasurable and won't make a difference nanovolts?????)

Now, if we were operating below 30mhz...yes it makes a difference (I'm a HAM guy also, and have seen 2-3 S-units gained by proper grounding...very rare though)

A ground blocks insertion loss is around a 1/2db. Sometimes a 1/2 makes a difference, especially with digital signals. Your choice.

I have had nothing but bad luck with those power strips that have the coax in/out. Normally tell people not to use it when I show them tv works after bypassing it. Monster cable this and that.....your paying for the name and your paying for your inexperience of electronics (not directed at anyone) You can be told this and that and get a horrible story about not grounding. Its not real world. Its MONEY talking.

I view grounding like Fire Insurance for your house. You wish to hell you had it after the disaster hits. It is cheap insurance. Also, there is a more common phenomenon called "static discharge" that happens with outdoor antennas. You don't have to suffer a direct hit by lightning to suffer a blown receiver. And speaking of Insurance, some policies will not cover your burnt house if you had an ungrounded antenna on it. Here is a partial quote from keohi.com on the subject:

"Direct and secondary static electricity (lightning) strike has strike probability increased by a buildup of static charge at points of conductivity such as a metal mast or pole of an outdoor antenna. Static electricity is built up during a thunderstorm with wind blowing over the metal structures. This static charge builds and becomes an attractor to the opposite charge of static build up in the storm clouds. By draining off the static charge continuously, you reduce the probability of strike because the potential difference is reduced. It was shown in the studies conducted on the Empire State building that probability of a strike was a direct relation between the quantity of static buildup on conductive structures. Conductive structures with no ground path were at the highest risk while structures that were intensely grounded over several contact points were the least risk. This is because it is actually rather difficult to completely eliminate all corona point ( sharp pointed shaped geometry in the metal structure) static charge buildup even with "good" grounding on multiple contacts of the metal structure. "

The full article is at: http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/hdreception/antenna_grounding.html

There is a reason various laws and codes were written to require grounding.

seabay

07-14-05, 01:25 AM

If anything, you may need less signal, not more. The big difference between day and night is the atmosphere. At night when things calm down there are "smooth boundaries" that form at various altitudes. These turn into giant mirrors and reflect some HD back to the ground. The only things I know to try are:
1) add a variable attenuator (Radio Shack) - cheap
2) tilt the antenna up and/or down to change the virtical reception lobes orientation (decreases sensitivity to the reflection)
3) try moving the antenna up/down/left/right/forward/back to see if that helps
4) try a yagi style antenna instead of DB2 bowtie design - RS 15-2160 is cheap
5) try a more directional antenna CM 4228 (or DB4) or CM 4248 (WITH an attenuator)

What does your signal meter on the receiver look like at night? Bouncing? Steady zero? Are all channels the same daytime and night?

Signal meter shows bouncing. I get "no signal" mostly on KING and sometimes on KCTS.

During the day, its better but it still bounces.

HiTymz

07-14-05, 01:32 AM

I guess my point with my grounding post was that its NOT going to help your signal at these freqs. :rolleyes: Besides the fact any static rolloff will be taken care of by the power ground that the receiver is plugged into (unless your using a 2 to 3 prong converter....old house)

These anomalies of a static discharge are almost non-existant in the Pacific Northwest (lightning) and a complete converter failure due to static is always an example of a factory defect or poor house grounding conditions which is easily proven.

Wanna have a proper ground????

You will need 2 8ft ground rods 6ft apart connected in a series in non rocky soil with at least 12 gauge wire. The ground wire will have to be half the lengh of the shortest coax run to your STB.

"non rocky soil" Not going to find any in the Puget Sound. Theres an old trick of pouring salt around the ground rod....but its useless. Unless you own a salt company.

Yes!!! Use a ground block. These things do happen and its always a good idea to be somewhat protected but, sometimes these things that look kewl and have a kewl name are more harm than good...no matter the price.

Aren't they all made in China anyway?? :p

See my other post

DanKurts

07-14-05, 02:28 AM

swwg

07-14-05, 02:36 AM

seabay

07-14-05, 01:37 PM

seabay
What's your address or cross street?
Dan

Sammamish

seabay

07-14-05, 01:39 PM

How far are the TV towers? Temperature layers in the atmosphere can cause the radio/TV signal path to bend. Bending increases with distance.

You can try antenna diversity - switch to another antenna situated at a different height, OR just raise or lower the single antenna in use.

I'm about 16 miles from QA towers.

quarque

07-14-05, 09:15 PM

Signal meter shows bouncing. I get "no signal" mostly on KING and sometimes on KCTS.

During the day, its better but it still bounces.

Bouncing usually means severe reflections - the receiver is constantly trying to decide which of the various out-of-phase signals is the one to lock on to. So you are still going to have to experiment: more directional antenna, attenuator to knock down everything to a "just enough" level, different antenna locations etc.

quarque

07-14-05, 09:33 PM

swwg

07-15-05, 01:59 AM

I'm about 16 miles from QA towers.

That's much below 40 miles and refraction (bending) is not the issue. If you can provide a simple sketch showing antenna, cable type, length, TV, splitters and etc, I'll take a look.

DanKurts

07-15-05, 03:47 AM

I'm at 243rd Place and 11th place SE

seabay
Not a bad site, but then I can't see how many trees are around you. And Sammamish has plenty of tall ones, too.
There is a hilltop just a mile west that might have a lot of tall trees that could be giving you some problems, as well. That hill comes more into play for ch9. Ch5 is weaker over there, too. I would suspect the antenna you have is just too small. Try a 4221 or 4248. That's what I use over there 90% of the time. You'll be better off going with more antenna than a preamp.
Dan

DanKurts

07-15-05, 03:59 AM

Bouncing usually means severe reflections - the receiver is constantly trying to decide which of the various out-of-phase signals is the one to lock on to. So you are still going to have to experiment: more directional antenna, attenuator to knock down everything to a "just enough" level, different antenna locations etc.

quarque
And, it can also mean you have trees in the way, with their branches acting like giant filters, chopping up the wave shape or signal. Seen that a lot in heavily wooded areas. A slight breeze and the signal changes tremendously. Multipath doesn't change the actual level that much, just makes it look really "rough" instead of flat. Tree limbs tend to just suck it down in level, similar to holding an antenna, and then suddenly dropping the nose down to the ground, and then back again. He's not in an area where strong signal causes big issues.
Now you want to talk Ballard, Magnolia, or my old high school, Queen Anne, that's MULTIPATH ! I'm sure those towers stunted my growth, along with assorted mental problems.
That's my excuse, anyway, and I'm sticking to it!
Dan

Chuck Ebby

07-15-05, 07:49 AM

swwg

07-15-05, 11:12 AM

Chuck Ebby

07-15-05, 10:01 PM

You can do this test. Disconnect the jointenna, and connect the CM4248 directly to the TV (with the amp and the attenuator of course). If your KIRO reception improves, leave it that way for a couple of days to see if it stays the same.

By the way, just a routine question on the checklist, is your cable RG6 or better ?

Have tried without the jointenna already in the past. No change. Using Radio Shack RG-6/QS - 75-Ohm cable.

HiTymz

07-15-05, 10:56 PM

Going to try a Channel Master 4228 tomarrow. I hope its works as good as everyone says it does.

I think we've found the best spot at my dads place on Anderson Island, but I think the rat shack antenna is just not good enough.

My dad also had to have a rotor with the remote control. He's getting sick of going on the roof to turn it back and forth from 13 to 4,5,7.

I hope this works!

Oh yeah quarque your definetly right about the soil. Sorry I was so longwinded with the grounding. I just wanted to make it clear about grounding vs signal clarity. I hate to see people get wrapped up in grounding and waste lots of time...like I do everyday :)

swwg

07-16-05, 04:11 AM

Have tried without the jointenna already in the past. No change. Using Radio Shack RG-6/QS - 75-Ohm cable.

Your setup looks quite good. Without any instrumentation, one can just use readily available info to come up with an idea of where to start. Perhaps, it is the weather, or recent changes at the TV station or the growth of surrounding trees, your educated guess is just as good or better than mine.

I did notice that from your location, the Antennaweb calculation shows that the difference between the transmission angle of KIRO and KCPQ is only 31 degrees. In theory you could have received them both with only one antenna and preamplifier. If you were to aim one antenna at both towers, you would end up with the half power beam width points of the lobe facing both towers directly -- not too bad since the CEA color for both stations are yellow. The antenna gain that would be required is a mere -10dBd in ideal free space. I'm guessing that you have quite a few obstruction such as trees and buildings, and may be mulipath problem, to require a 4248 yagi and 4228 bow antennas with preamplifiers. I'm also guessing that you wanted to filter out the frequencies such that each antenna receives only either KIRO or KCPQ but not both. In theory, that should work very well in a dual antenna setup. And they did work in reality until recently.

It appears that your reception margin is not very wide, so that it takes a small change in reception condition to throw your antenna off to a bad reception.

I suspect that even with the 6 dB attenuator, your net antenna gain is around 20 dBd (10 dBd antenna gain + 23 dB amp gain over the antenna gain - 6 dB attenuator -4 dB coax line loss - 1 dB jointenna loss - 1 dB balun loss -1 dB connector losses = 20 dBd net gain). Your total loss budget is 20dBd - (-10 dBD) = 30 dBd and it is quite impressive since it can overcome lots of partial obstruction such as trees.

However if the loss due to partial obstruction does not amount to 30dB, then your received signal would be to hot. For example if the loss due to obstruction is 20 dB, then your received signal would be 30-20=10 dB too hot. Then a slight increase in signal strength stemming from very good weather can make your signal way too hot.

But it's all theory. The conditions used in the theory may not match with the real conditions of your antenna signal reception. How much of obstruction in the line of sight, how much multipath, and how much of temperature inversion is there during heating/cooling of air layers in the atmosphere and who knows? Perhaps new buildings had come up recently, and you would be getting reflections off of them, giving you multipath problems.

Luckily the solution is not that complicated in practice. You can change antenna location, height, angle of reception, net preamplifier gain, to see if you can make an improvement. That's about all.

I'm thinking perhaps you have too much amplifier gain but then I am only aware of some of the conditions about the signal transmission to your location. Therefore, it's only a guess, and the only control you have is your reception setup.

I'm sure if you keep trying you will succeed.

Good luck and happy TV viewing.

HiTymz

07-16-05, 11:31 PM

No go on the Channel Master 4228. Horibble reception vs the rat shack VU-190 XR.

The Channel Master remote rotor was a the best addition to the setup. Very easy to program.

We now get most of the HD channels between 63-86% from Anderson Island. However, channel 7 is being a pain. Max was 54% then jumps to 45% (45% seems to be the cutoff for the H10 receiver) constant tiling. Absolutly no KONG reception.

Heres the thing that drove us nuts... before switched back to the rat shack and had the CM on the ground I had my dad stand the antenna up on the ground (mast and rotor still attached) and had him point it to the sweet spot (no branches in the way) The antenna was about 12 off the ground....every channel came in no tiling @ 63% with no rotor movement. We then swapped to the rat shack and same result execept all channels were @ 86% with some rotor movement for channel 13.

The trees at our location are very tall with most branches being at the 20-30ft level.

When we get our energy back will be ground mounting the rat shack antenna @ the 12 ft level accommodating the rotor.

I reccomend to anyone with any branches in your way at the roof top level to move antenna to ground level and maybe you will have a clearer view. I never thought a few branches would affect signal so much.

Finally!.....and it only took 2 weeks to find the sweet spot! :p

DanKurts

07-17-05, 02:17 AM

DanKurts

07-17-05, 02:36 AM

I'm in Mill Creek area (16704 3rd Dr SE). I was doing fairly well until recently but lately having lots of problems getting KIRO (which used to be solid). Have not had a lot of luck with KOMO but now it seems to be holding better than KIRO. I think I was doing better before the new foliage got heavy late in the Spring. Spent some time readjusting the antenna (CM4248 with CM7775 w/rs non adjustible attenuator on 75' cable attached to 2nd fl chimney) and the numbers seemed to improve a little but still getting drops. I have a seperate CM4228 pointed at 13 with a jointenna and am getting that channel fine. Any suggestions on things I might do to get a more consistent signal? It isn't that big a deal right now, but I'd like to sort things out before the new programing kicks in in the Fall. Does reception generally get better in the Fall anyway when the leaves start dumping?

Chuck
Deciduous trees are not your problem, it's the fir trees, about a half miles worth, and the hill. Combine them, and you will get varying results. Most likely they have grown and or moved just enough to give you some grief. Remember, you could've had a very ugly signal all along, but there was just enough for the decoder to lock on to, and all would look fine, and the "strength indicator" would still read fair to good. You wouldn't know that it was hanging on by it's finger nails. There was a very fine "tunnel" you were working with, and now it's getting narrower. Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of mounting options. Since the 13 antenna is working, don't move it. Try another spot with another mast and see what gives. Maybe just move it a few feet east along the chimney and see what happens. As I recall, you have about 6 to 8 feet to work with. Be sure to get the lower part of the 4248 above the tops of the chimneys.
Now is the time to work on it, with the good weather, not in the fall when that shake roof is wet and slippery!
Dan

Chuck Ebby

07-17-05, 09:42 PM

Chuck
Deciduous trees are not your problem, it's the fir trees, about a half miles worth, and the hill. Combine them, and you will get varying results. Most likely they have grown and or moved just enough to give you some grief. Remember, you could've had a very ugly signal all along, but there was just enough for the decoder to lock on to, and all would look fine, and the "strength indicator" would still read fair to good. You wouldn't know that it was hanging on by it's finger nails. There was a very fine "tunnel" you were working with, and now it's getting narrower. Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of mounting options. Since the 13 antenna is working, don't move it. Try another spot with another mast and see what gives. Maybe just move it a few feet east along the chimney and see what happens. As I recall, you have about 6 to 8 feet to work with. Be sure to get the lower part of the 4248 above the tops of the chimneys.
Now is the time to work on it, with the good weather, not in the fall when that shake roof is wet and slippery!
Dan

Thanks for the suggestions. I actually have less room to work with moving side to side on the chimney. Had another dish mounted to point at 61.5. I think I have the angle down ... the variable is moving the antenna up or down. I put back up to the top and started moving downward in one inch increments. Tedious exercise and not very scientific. I think it is at a good spot now, about 2 ft higher than it was when I started. I'll live with it as is for now...give it a few weeks and re-address if needed.

FX2020

07-18-05, 02:44 AM

DanKurts - my location is 14605 SE 113 street, Renton. I'm new to this. Will I be able to recieve OAC. Thank You.

snooby

07-18-05, 10:58 PM

snooby

07-18-05, 11:25 PM

Regarding HD programming on UPN-11 (11-1)... Are you receiving 9-5 and 22-1 okay? They transmit on towers at the same Capitol Hill site as 11-1.

I receive 9-5 (30-40%) and 22-1 (70%) just fine. I also receive 11 analog almost perfectly. There must be something with the strength of their broadcast or the frequency (around obstacles and through my cables). Note that I get 0-10% signal on 11-1.

Have you tried a preamp? It might be enough to bring in 11.

I have not tried a preamp. At this point, I'm not too concerned about it. If I see some drop outs or have problems with a splitter, I'll probably look into it then.

There is some good news, though; I get KONG! It didn't show up originally, and I never tried because I had been told it was a weak signal. I'm now getting everything that antennaweb and/or TitanTV say I can except 19 digital (Chehalis, ~70 miles south), DAY digital (maybe not broadcasting yet), and 11-1.

DanKurts

07-19-05, 02:12 AM

DanKurts - my location is 14605 SE 113 street, Renton. I'm new to this. Will I be able to recieve OAC. Thank You.

FX2020
Great location. However, I can't see trees, or other obstructions. There are pockets of thick trees around there. I have had about a 95% success rate within a mile of of you. Usually they all come in, with only one or two being fussy IF you have any problem. Once in a while, one will get stubborn. I would try the 4221, NO preamp. Signal is pretty strong there. Not enough to warrant an attenuator, though. You should be able to pull in 13 as well.
Call if you have questions.
Dan
206-794-3993

DanKurts

07-19-05, 02:33 AM

I receive 9-5 (30-40%) and 22-1 (70%) just fine. I also receive 11 analog almost perfectly. There must be something with the strength of their broadcast or the frequency (around obstacles and through my cables). Note that I get 0-10% signal on 11-1.

I have not tried a preamp. At this point, I'm not too concerned about it. If I see some drop outs or have problems with a splitter, I'll probably look into it then.

There is some good news, though; I get KONG! It didn't show up originally, and I never tried because I had been told it was a weak signal. I'm now getting everything that antennaweb and/or TitanTV say I can except 19 digital (Chehalis, ~70 miles south), DAY digital (maybe not broadcasting yet), and 11-1.

snooby
HD reception can be very fussy at certain frequencies, even though the towers (9-11-22) are within a 100ft of each other. It's not uncommon. The reception percentages are not a real indicator of signal strength, either. You actually could be getting more than the other channels, but because the signal is not "clean" or flat and level on a scope, the decoder can't lock on, giving you low numbers. Ch 11 analog just means at that frequency, 198 to 204mhz, it's coming in good, on an antenna that was not designed for that frequency. CH 11 digital is 602-608mhz. Far more line of sight, and susceptible to obstructions. Your cables are probably 99% okay, since everything else is coming in, above and below it, so don't worry about them.
IF you do split the cable with a preamp, be sure to do it AFTER the power supply. It will short it out if you split the signal between the preamp and power supply.
Dan

DanKurts

07-19-05, 03:09 AM

TitanTV.com shows ABC News Now on 4.2. Has anyone ever seen this?
Just curious: TitanTV and Antennaweb show KCPQ as 18.1, KTWB as 25.1, KHCV as 44.1 and KTBW as 14.1, but my TV shows them as 13.1, 22.1, 45.1 and 20.1, respectively. Why the discrepency? The first two make sense for what my TV shows - I don't know where the other numbers come from.
KONG has a DT and SD channel, but they appear to always be the same. What's up with that?

snooby
ch4 KOMO shows national ABC analog programs or news on 4.2, sometimes, while regular HD programming is on 4.1 (or 4-1 depending on how your receiver displays it). They seem to change what they display on 4.2, but it always is standard def.
Some receivers show the actual channel the HD comes in on, others read the incoming signal header and display the info using the analog channel as the main number. CH 13.1 or 18.1 is the same thing, same channel. CH 18 is the real UHF channel the HD signal comes in on, ch25 is KTWB's HD channel. On older decoders, like the Toshiba 3000, Mits E-86, or Hughes HIRD 8, if the signal is weak, it sometimes shows up as 18-1, then when it gets stronger, it shows up as 13-1. And, to make it more wierd, I've seen them scan both in! Tuning to either gets you the same channel, of course. Go figure. The numbers after the dot or dash incate which sub-channel. Ch9 has 5 subchannels. They only have enough bandwidth to do 3 regular channels, 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, or one regular, 9-1, and one HD, 9-5. That's why it changes and drops 9-2 & 9-3 after 5PM when the HD comes on.
KONG has room for showing both one analog and one HD at the same time, so they just feed the same programming to both. Ch9, feeds different programming to it's channels, usually. There's no hard and fast requirement.
Dan

mammut

07-19-05, 03:18 PM

Hi all,

Does anyone have any recomendations for a good satellite/antenna installer in the Seattle area? I am moving into a new house in a Shaunessy development right on the border between Mill Creek and Bothell. I dont want to use the Directv movers program as I will lose my distant networks.

Additionally has anyone had any luck with HDTV reception there?

Thanks in advance...

:)

Chuck Ebby

07-19-05, 07:28 PM

Chuck
Deciduous trees are not your problem, it's the fir trees, about a half miles worth, and the hill....Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of mounting options. Since the 13 antenna is working, don't move it...Be sure to get the lower part of the 4248 above the tops of the chimneys.
Dan

Got up there again with the intention of giving it one last shot before going to a rotator. The last time I had success I lowered the antenna way down. As the wire mesh of the 4228 is actually resting on top of the chimney and the signal has remained strong even while the 4248 signal was deteriorating I decided to lower the 4248 as low as I could on the pole. Lowered it so the back arms of the 4248 are a few inches above the wire mesh of the 4228. The immediate results were positive. I went back up and made a slight adustement and all channels were locked and the numbers were looking good too. Is it possible that lowering the antenna the approximate 4' or so that I am somehow under tree branch obstructions? If I run into more trouble would it make any sense to take the pole off the chimney and place it even lower? That just seems counter intuitive to me, I always thought the higher the better.

swwg

07-19-05, 11:13 PM

Hi,

With a Tack-a-tenna, I can receive the following stations at 75-100% - mostly 100%.

4-1
5-1
7-1
9-1
11-1
13-1
22-1
33-1

Now that's incredible!!
swwg

tuquet

07-19-05, 11:48 PM

Did you patent the design? It will be a sure hit.

swwg

07-20-05, 12:36 AM

Did you patent the design? It will be a sure hit.

The double stacked bow tie is not a new design but the idea is an antenna that can be easily attached to a flat surface. That would mean mostly windows because most walls have metallic element on the outside of the house to block signals - such as aluminum foil and wire mesh.

-swwg

DanKurts

07-20-05, 02:37 AM

Got up there again with the intention of giving it one last shot before going to a rotator. The last time I had success I lowered the antenna way down. As the wire mesh of the 4228 is actually resting on top of the chimney and the signal has remained strong even while the 4248 signal was deteriorating I decided to lower the 4248 as low as I could on the pole. Lowered it so the back arms of the 4248 are a few inches above the wire mesh of the 4228. The immediate results were positive. I went back up and made a slight adustement and all channels were locked and the numbers were looking good too. Is it possible that lowering the antenna the approximate 4' or so that I am somehow under tree branch obstructions? If I run into more trouble would it make any sense to take the pole off the chimney and place it even lower? That just seems counter intuitive to me, I always thought the higher the better.

Chuck
That's true, Height is generally better if you're far enough away from major obstructions. And in most cases it does work better. At your location, signal comes through the trees, so it's a matter of finding another "tunnel" between everything. Height would help your location only if it was say 100 or more feet up to clear them.
This also means that you may have to relocate again in the future, as trees grow.
I applaud your tenacity !
Dan

Chuck Ebby

07-20-05, 09:50 AM

Chuck
That's true, Height is generally better if you're far enough away from major obstructions. And in most cases it does work better. At your location, signal comes through the trees, so it's a matter of finding another "tunnel" between everything. Height would help your location only if it was say 100 or more feet up to clear them.
This also means that you may have to relocate again in the future, as trees grow.
I applaud your tenacity !
Dan

Insomnia this am (day off) led me to recheck which stations each of my two antennas are pulling in as they are currently pointed. I was very surprised to find that the 4228 which I had dedicated to 13 is actually doing a better job picking up everything except KOMO. So I removed the jointenna and connected an a/b switch. The 4248 gives a solid lock (mostly) on KOMO.

(edit) Just ordered a join-tenna 0585-2 (specific channel block=38). The a/b switch is fine except (like using a rotator) it gets tricky with timer recordings. Lucky that, pretty much, all that is on now is repeats. Should have the new join-tenna well before the new season arrives. Solved? Time will tell.

Chuck Ebby

07-20-05, 11:30 AM

Hi,

With a Tack-a-tenna(picture attached), I can receive the following stations at 75-100% - mostly 100%.

4-1
5-1
7-1
9-1
11-1
13-1
22-1
33-1

Now that's incredible!!
swwg

Just curious, how do the numbers compare with any other antenna you've used? If they are on a par I might try making one of those thingys too. What materials did you use?

swwg

07-20-05, 12:58 PM

Just curious, how do the numbers compare with any other antenna you've used? If they are on a par I might try making one of those thingys too. What materials did you use?

The performance of the Tack-a-tenna is more or less on par with a silver sensor (log periodic dipole array type). If I'll do a comparison when I get the chance - when my family is not watching tv and I'm near the TV.

The materials I use:

Rat Shack hookup wire #18 AWG ............................ RS #278-1223

Rat Shack 300 to 75 ohm matching transformer........RS #15-1253

Rat Shack F-81 cable coupler ....................................RS #278-213

Strip off the insulation of the hookup wire.

Good luck Chuck!

-swwg

Chuck Ebby

07-20-05, 01:56 PM

The performance of the Tack-a-tenna is more or less on par with a silver sensor (log periodic dipole array type). If I'll do a comparison when I get the chance - when my family is not watching tv and I'm near the TV.

The materials I use:

Rat Shack hookup wire #18 AWG ............................ RS #278-1223

Rat Shack 300 to 75 ohm matching transformer........RS #15-1253

Rat Shack F-81 cable coupler ....................................RS #278-213

Strip off the insulation of the hookup wire.

Good luck Chuck!

-swwg

Thanks for the ingredients. Think I'll involve my kids with a little project. Should be fun.

swwg

07-20-05, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the ingredients. Think I'll involve my kids with a little project. Should be fun.

Take great care with cut wires - they are not quite child proof. Be sure they don't look at the wires too closely since the fine wires could be a poke hazard to their valuable assets. I'm sure you will provide full supervision to your kids. Take care of yourself too 'cause the wires can be a hazard to you too. To minimize the hazard, you can make a eye loop at the ends of all wires - still not child proof but somewhat safer.

-swwg

tg3

07-20-05, 03:10 PM

With a Tack-a-tenna(picture attached), I can receive the following stations at 75-100% - mostly 100%.

I like it! Could you post a rough schematic with the dimensions? It's a bit tough to tell from the pic how everything is wired together.

swwg

07-20-05, 03:33 PM

I like it! Could you post a rough schematic with the dimensions? It's a bit tough to tell from the pic how everything is wired together.

I was just trying to show how efficient a double bow tie antenna can be - small but works great.

You can buy one for about the same dollars, from Radio Shack if they still make them. ChannelMaster makes them too. Make sure you know about their merchandise return policy before you buy.

-swwg

Chuck Ebby

07-20-05, 05:28 PM

Take great care with cut wires - they are not quite child proof. Be sure they don't look at the wires too closely since the fine wires could be a poke hazard to their valuable assets. I'm sure you will provide full supervision to your kids. Take care of yourself too 'cause the wires can be a hazard to you too. To minimize the hazard, you can make a eye loop at the ends of all wires - still not child proof but somewhat safer.

-swwg

thanks

DanKurts

07-20-05, 06:12 PM

Insomnia this am (day off) led me to recheck which stations each of my two antennas are pulling in as they are currently pointed. I was very surprised to find that the 4228 which I had dedicated to 13 is actually doing a better job picking up everything except KOMO. So I removed the jointenna and connected an a/b switch. The 4248 gives a solid lock (mostly) on KOMO.

(edit) Just ordered a join-tenna 0585-2 (specific channel block=38). The a/b switch is fine except (like using a rotator) it gets tricky with timer recordings. Lucky that, pretty much, all that is on now is repeats. Should have the new join-tenna well before the new season arrives. Solved? Time will tell.

Chuck
Be aware, JoinTenna UHF couplers are not really narrow in their bandpass filtering. They usually have about a 5 channel spread either side of your desired channel to add. For ch13HD (ch18), it's no problem, as there's nothing below it to worry about, and above, the next channel is ch22HD (ch25). This means you'll probably trap out ch7HD (ch39) and maybe ch9HD (ch41) and ch11HD (ch36). These are not high performance couplers. Sharp and narrow, of the type to you would need to not trap an adjacent channel, are very expensive for UHF, on the order of $700-$1000, custom made only. VHF JoinTennas are pretty good, and can be tuned much narrower because of the lower frequency, so they're okay to use in areas that aren't close in. Even VHF couplers that are good for close in usually only cost about $75-$300.
Keep your receipt!
Dan

quarque

07-20-05, 11:08 PM

swwg - where's the picture of this Tack-a-tenna?

HiTymz

07-21-05, 01:10 AM

I cant remember the website...but if you do a search on google for the CM-4228 there is a site with pics that shows 4 of them connected into 1 big 'ol antenna with 4 amps.

Its kinda kewl but at the same time....CALL THE CABLE COMPANY!!!(sorry I work for IT.....IT being CAPS cause I can't help myself)

I'm starting to feel like this whole thing is a futile attempt to just "make it work...NOW!!!!!!"

GOD I LOVE RF!!!!....and the simple days of snowy pic.....Why does it hurt me so?

swwg

07-21-05, 01:31 AM

tperraut

07-21-05, 02:24 AM

Update on posts > a week ago.
I eventually got a CM 3021.
I used to get most HD Stations but not Fox nor Komo (UHF 18 and 38). (from Bellevue/Overlake)
With the CM in the attic, I now get them (but somewhat loosing King, I need to adjust the location of the antenna further)

Pros of the CM 3021:
- really cheap antenna ($20 + $11 shipping).
- works much better than a silver sensor :-)

Cons:
- packaging not great (screws go through it...). UPS did good, design of the box is faulty.
- overall manufacturing quality seems very very low:
- Some of the "bow tie" are not parallel to the reflector (should I straighten the wires?)
- reflector is somewhat misshaped (not flat, twisted)
- both screws (bolt?) to connect the impedance transformer were unusable without using a dremel to make their end flat. I think either a hammer or some machinery was used on them and nuked the end. One of the 2 nuts provided did not survive the tentative to screw it on the destroyed end of the bolt.
[note: English is not my native language and I might not use the right technical term]
- reflector attachment to the "pole" is secured with only half of the pieces of metal twisted. The other 50% were not twisted and do not contribute to hold the reflector.

So if Channel Master = high quality, I'm glad I did not get any other brand...
The design and gain of the antenna might be really great, but the crafstmanship is clearly really low, and quality control inexistant.

Now I just have to convince the wife to help me do the final adjustments to get all the channels good (including king now) ;-)

BTW, I've a tree just in front of the attic and I wonder if I should consider "pruning it". I'm renting a townhome so if you have some advice about how to talk a landlord into doing that (or letting me do it), let me know :-)

Last questions tonight for the pros, my attic is quite small and the CM 3021 is touching the floor of the attic currently. Does this affect the signal?
I still have to buy and install a proper pole, but I think where I've the antenna is likely one of the best locations to get a "line of sight" to the towers. If I attach it to the "rafter" (?) the location will likely not be as good.
Any recommendation on how to set an antenna with max 2 inches of vertical clearance? do some kind of x-mas tree support using wood?

Thanks.

DanKurts

07-21-05, 04:18 AM

Chuck Ebby

07-21-05, 09:33 AM

Chuck
Be aware, JoinTenna UHF couplers are not really narrow in their bandpass filtering. They usually have about a 5 channel spread either side of your desired channel to add. For ch13HD (ch18), it's no problem, as there's nothing below it to worry about, and above, the next channel is ch22HD (ch25). This means you'll probably trap out ch7HD (ch39) and maybe ch9HD (ch41) and ch11HD (ch36). These are not high performance couplers. Sharp and narrow, of the type to you would need to not trap an adjacent channel, are very expensive for UHF, on the order of $700-$1000, custom made only. VHF JoinTennas are pretty good, and can be tuned much narrower because of the lower frequency, so they're okay to use in areas that aren't close in. Even VHF couplers that are good for close in usually only cost about $75-$300.
Keep your receipt!
Dan

Thanks for the heads up. I'll give it a try, maybe I'll get lucky. If not, I'll at least know what happened.

tperraut

07-21-05, 01:16 PM

tperraut
Most antennas are not built to aircraft standards. Channel Master is not really high quality in terms of manufacturing, but in design and performance, they are very good. Many others that perform well are even worse, construction wise, like the Blake JB 21 series antennas from England.
The box it comes in was not really made to be shipped by itself. The screen comes with a bit of a curve to it, never perfectly flat. The brackets that clamp to the screen only grab it in two places, the other two tabs are for alignment only. The bow ties get bent when the box gets slammed around. It's okay to straighten them. Make them as equal to each other as possible.
Tree pruning may help some, but how much is hard to say. It won't hurt to let the antenna touch the floor of the attic. Try to keep it vertical, works best that way. How you mount it is not critical. Inside the attic it will have no wind to affect it or move it, so you can even use string to hang it, if you want.
Dan

Thanks for the advice. I hold a private pilot licence, so the aircraft standard is "to the point" :-)
About vertical, I was planning to try various angles: few degrees up or down to see if that improves things. Is it s waste of time with that kind of antenna? (Teh silver sensor type needed a few degrees up to receive better, quite a big difference for me).

rickeame

07-22-05, 12:17 AM

I need some help! Dan the antenna guy (hi Dan!) installed our HD system and used an amplifier. My son, being the brute that he is, ended up ripping a connector off of the Channel Master 0747 box that powers that amplifier the other day and now I'm SOL on HD signal. I need to know where I can go get one of those pronto as I'm missing out! :)

DanKurts

07-22-05, 01:02 AM

Thanks for the advice. I hold a private pilot licence, so the aircraft standard is "to the point" :-)
About vertical, I was planning to try various angles: few degrees up or down to see if that improves things. Is it s waste of time with that kind of antenna? (Teh silver sensor type needed a few degrees up to receive better, quite a big difference for me).

tperraut
Vertical is not critical, just the norm. You'll most likely find it isn't near as fussy as a yagi type, like the silver sensor. Can't hurt to try.
I'm not a pilot, but appreciate the workings of planes. Spent a few years at Everett on the 767/747 line in flight deck and avionics rack installs. Also got to watch them restore the old 307 at plant2. Took 7 years! And then watched them do it again!! If your an old plane nut, send me your e-mail and I'll forward some pix of the restoration and from the day before the first rollout, when it was absolutely mint, embossed silk headliner and all!
Dan

DanKurts

07-22-05, 01:07 AM

tg3

07-22-05, 01:10 PM

Here is my first results with OTA DTV. New Toshiba 30" 16:9 CRT TV. We don't have cable or satellite, but very good analog reception.

I'm near 7th Ave NW & 125th St, Broadview neighborhood. Second story, very good southern view, save for a few trees.

Picked up a Zoom receiver on Ebay. After a bit of head scratching and a lot of web research, got it to work. First scan by the receiver gets me the following.

4.1, 5.1, 5.2, 7.1, 7.2, 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.5, 11.1, 13.1, 16.1, 16.2, 22.1, 28.1-4.

I had never seen HDTV before in a home setup. Image quality is just stunning. CSI last night was incredible. Now I really understand what all the fuss over DTV is about.

And the antenna?

<insert drum roll here>

The 'Silver Streak' from Zenith. $24 from Amazon. Eight fabulous digital channels from an indoor antenna. Amazing.

Here is the breakdown of my reception by transmitter location in degrees:

110 | 0 | 2
141 | 2 | 3
155 | 4 | 4
174 | 1 | 1
221 | 0 | 2

Great for 141 - 174 degrees, zilch at 110 and 221. I'm hoping a CM 4221 on the southern wall of my house has a good shot at the other channels. Comments?

Three weeks ago I had a new TV and had just heard about OTA HDTV. Many thanks to the Puget Sound posters on this forum for providing the info and leads that got me headed in the right direction.

tg3

07-22-05, 07:57 PM

Updated reception chart, after determining 22.1 => 25.1 (KTWB) and 13.1 =>18.1 (KCPQ).

110 | 0 | 2 - KBCB, KVOS
141 | 3 | 3
156 | 4 | 4
174 | 1 | 1
221 | 1 | 2 - KTBW

Dang, can't get the religious and shopping channels. ;)

DanKurts

07-23-05, 12:51 AM

DrCrawn

07-25-05, 02:14 PM

Hi,

For those who can receive 33-1, please check 33-2, 33-3, and 33-4. They are multicasting again.

Swwg

yeah, I pretty much get all these DTV channels, no sleep lost over PAX though. Pax is 100% 480i, so blah!

Man, did anyone see the PQ on Legend Saturday? Wow, that is some bad PQ I tell you what, heh.

Now, channel 44/45 what is this? I can get 44 to show up, it won't switch over to the 45 call sign though.

swwg

07-25-05, 09:54 PM

Hi,

I'm sorry ;) I withdrew my other antenna picture. I did not think the antenna was user friendly.

If you already have a bow tie antenna from an old TV, and a matching transformer, then all you need is one more bow tie antenna and you are ready to roll. If not, you can buy all the parts for under $15.00.

Consider these advantages:

An easy to use indoor antenna for the UHF TV band.
Good for HDTV in metropolitan area (less than 15 miles.)
Reasonably high gain - highest dB gain per pound of metal !!!
Lightweight.
Small foot print.
Can be placed behind a picture if the picture is near a window.
Possibly high WAF (wife acceptance factor.)

This may be just what you need to get the one missing channel.

PS. If this is of interest to you and if you are lucky, you can pull in KBTC-DT in Tacoma - 36 miles from Shoreline!

I am only going to provide a basic diagram that is so simple that you could become skeptical. Without further explanation, here it is.

-swwg

PS. An outdoor antenna like CM4221 or RS 15-2160 or Winegard PR-9014 (small yagi) is ALWAYS better than an indoor antenna, period.

DrCrawn

07-26-05, 12:47 AM

KTWB-DT = SD tonight :(

DanKurts

07-26-05, 02:34 AM

swwg

07-26-05, 09:05 PM

swwg
Add to your drawing: The length of each lead from the antenna to the balun needs to be the same, or as equal as possible, and no twists.
Dan

Done.

-swwg

PS. The Easy UHF Antenna is a tad better than the Tack-a-tenna - about 2 bars higher at 584 MHz. Henceforth, I declare the Tack-a-tenna obsolete.

swwg

07-27-05, 01:34 AM

.....
Now, channel 44/45 what is this? I can get 44 to show up, it won't switch over to the 45 call sign though.

Not enough signal strength to decode to 45-1 (KHCV-DT).

-swwg

Chuck Ebby

07-27-05, 09:08 PM

Follow up on earlier posts. I had an unused 4221 in the garage and thought I'd try going to ground level with it. Propped it up against a tree on the side of the house (unused area) aimed in the right direction and tilted up a little to accomodate ground slope. KOMO came in very solid (nothing else did but KOMO has been the difficult one for me). After making sure the signal remained constant and making the positioning a little more permanent I readdressed the roof antennas and discovered that the coax lead out of the 7775 that I had attached to the 4248 was corroding despite being wrapped in electrical tape. That explains the slowly deteriorating signal on the 4248. I removed the 4228 and repositioned the 4248 as low as I could on the chimney pole and reconnected using the good coax. Without any readjustment I'm getting everything strong. KCPQ has given me trouble in the past too but now its getting up to high 60's low 70's. KOMO is coming in mid 60's (still have occasional breakups but all I have to do is hit the a/b switch and move the signal to the 4221. All the other channels are coming in in the 70's and upn is crossing the 80 level. It's too soon to say all my OTA trouble is solved but this is the best I've been able to get since I started last March.

DrCrawn

07-28-05, 02:53 PM

Please if you guys are Veronica Mars fans, please follow this link http://www.kirotv.com/contact/index.html

and write them an email concerning their decision to air "The Best of KIRO" for two hours rather than show CBS's airing of Veronica Mars in HD.

Alternatively, KIRO multicasts, so I don't see why they can't show Veronica Mars on 7-1 and "Best of KIRO" on 7-2.

Please tell them that we want the HD programming CBS promised us.

quarque

07-28-05, 09:45 PM

DrCrawn - I'm not a VM fan but I certainly agree with the sentiment of your post. I hate it when locals come up with these "brilliant" ideas for alternate programming. Anyone know what the rules are regarding network stations NOT carrying network programming? Can they preempt any ol time they feel like it?

swwg

07-28-05, 11:49 PM

Hi,

I had wanted to test the Tack-a-tenna but I was more interested in testing another similar one - a screenless double bow tie (SDBT) that can be easily assembled from widely available material, using no more than a screw driver and scissors.

This SDBT UHF antenna performs better than the original Tack-a-tenna.

Finally, I got around to testing the SDBT antenna.

I compared the SDBT with an LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array) type like the silver sensor. For this test, I use a "silver sensor" like antenna - not a real silver sensor.

Test Conditions:
Receiver Samsung SIRT 451.
Both antennas aimed S-SW.
Both antennas at the same height.
Test done indoor pointing toward a South facing fireplace.
No amplification.

Test Results

CH Like SS SDBT
4-1 85, *
5-1 100, 100
7-1 95, 100
9-1 100, 100
11-1 100, 95
13-1 100, 80
16-1 85, 70
22-1 100, 100
28-1 - , -
33-1 *, 65

* requires repositioning.

The test shows that they are comparable. However, the screenless double bow tie has an edge in the ease of placement. I can hang the screenless double bow tie high near a window for better reception, or I can place it behind a picture if I so desire (as a hidden antenna with better WAF).

Channel 28 is 36 miles to the South and with the SDBT antenna I can get quite an improvement on the signal quality - 3 bars up, to 80% near a window at 5 ft height. I am not trying to put down the LPDA type antenna but I am just trying to show that every antenna has its place (no pun intended).

For HDTV, it's either there or not there. A little margin would be adequate, like 20% above 50% signal quality indicator. As I see fir trees growing up in my neighbor's yard, I'm keeping my RS15-2160 for future use.

-swwg

brownnet

07-29-05, 02:57 AM

Anyone know what the rules are regarding network stations NOT carrying network programming? Can they preempt any ol time they feel like it?

Generally affiliates and their networks have contractual agreements as to how many times they can preempt the network in one year. A station I worked at once could only preempt something like 8 nights per year. That being said, I think there is a possibility that KIRO is doing it as a protest since the show also airs on UPN. Stations get upset when their exclusive content is "repurposed" on another network, or in this case, CBS's corporate owners are trying to lure viewers to UPN by getting them hooked while the show is on a much bigger platform, CBS (CBS has an ownership stake in UPN).

DrCrawn

07-29-05, 02:44 PM

Generally affiliates and their networks have contractual agreements as to how many times they can preempt the network in one year. A station I worked at once could only preempt something like 8 nights per year. That being said, I think there is a possibility that KIRO is doing it as a protest since the show also airs on UPN. Stations get upset when their exclusive content is "repurposed" on another network, or in this case, CBS's corporate owners are trying to lure viewers to UPN by getting them hooked while the show is on a much bigger platform, CBS (CBS has an ownership stake in UPN).

Brownnet you make some excellent points, I didn't think that KIRO would be doing this in protest of a UPN show being shown on a CBS affiliate, but it makes sense now that I think about it.

It's really a shame, KIRO has the technology to broadcast BOTH Veronica Mars in HD, as well as their SD program on 7-2. Too bad KIRO isn't making good use of the ATSC format...

Is it just me? Seems like a no-brainer. Pull the damn airport feed, show Best of KIRO on 7-2 and show Veronica Mars on 7-1! What is so hard about that?

quarque

07-30-05, 09:42 PM

...
Is it just me? Seems like a no-brainer. Pull the damn airport feed, show Best of KIRO on 7-2 and show Veronica Mars on 7-1! What is so hard about that?
WHAT! I'm not sure I could live without my Airport CAM! :D :D :D

It really is amazing how poorly this new technology is being used in some cases.

DrCrawn

07-31-05, 05:15 PM

WHAT! I'm not sure I could live without my Airport CAM! :D :D :D

It really is amazing how poorly this new technology is being used in some cases.

heh ;) KOMO would have done it correctly, they seem to be much more in tune with the viewer, even us obscure KOMO-DT viewers. Not sure if we will ever know why KIRO decided to preempt on Friday night. But it stank! Boo KIRO!

UPN is showing "Dolphins" an IMAX/WMVHD film today @5pm. TitanTV even has it listed in HD. Should look stunning.

DrCrawn

07-31-05, 09:51 PM

Speaking of KOMO, the sound is really crackly right now for me, quite noticable. :(

pastiche

08-01-05, 01:28 AM

and write them an email concerning their decision to air "The Best of KIRO" for two hours rather than show CBS's airing of Veronica Mars in HD.

It might be useful to point out to them that CBS _is_ "The Best of KIRO".

After moving the CBS News to 5:30 and shoehorning in yet another half-hour of local crime & fires at 6:00, it should be pretty clear that their loyalty to CBS isn't exactly unwavering.

I watch a lot of the locally originated programming on KOMO and on KING/KONG, and I think the vast majority of it is first-rate. I can't remember the last time I watched something on KIRO that didn't come from CBS.

DrCrawn

08-02-05, 01:57 PM

It might be useful to point out to them that CBS _is_ "The Best of KIRO".

After moving the CBS News to 5:30 and shoehorning in yet another half-hour of local crime & fires at 6:00, it should be pretty clear that their loyalty to CBS isn't exactly unwavering.

I watch a lot of the locally originated programming on KOMO and on KING/KONG, and I think the vast majority of it is first-rate. I can't remember the last time I watched something on KIRO that didn't come from CBS.

I don't think I am understanding what you are saying exactly. "The Best of KIRO" was most definitely not a CBS program, it was a local affiliate's program.

What do you mean you "can't remember the last time I watched something on KIRO that didn't come from CBS?" The vast majority of programming on KIRO is NOT network programming.

Nevertheless, it looks like KIRO is showing those episodes of Veronica Mars after all, although who knows if they will actually be on. Besides who's going to be able to watch these anyway. Thanks KIRO!

According to TitanTV listings, VM is on KIRO-HD at 2:05AM 8/6 and 2:35AM 8/13.

Staticvision

08-03-05, 03:59 PM

pastiche

08-03-05, 10:42 PM

I don't think I am understanding what you are saying exactly. "The Best of KIRO" was most definitely not a CBS program, it was a local affiliate's program.

What do you mean you "can't remember the last time I watched something on KIRO that didn't come from CBS?" The vast majority of programming on KIRO is NOT network programming.

I think I typed that a little too ambiguously. :-) I meant that the only shows on KIRO that I find to be worth even a glance are those that come from CBS -- prime time, sports, etc.

Don Wilkinson

08-03-05, 11:37 PM

Speaking of KOMO, the sound is really crackly right now for me, quite noticable. :(

Are you still having audio reception problems with KOMO? How about "freezes"?

Please refresh my memory about your setup...receiver, antenna, etc.

I have been reasonably happy with the signal except for some really low audio a week or so ago. The network audio is passed through without any local adjustments (except for the recently added compressor/limiter).

I have a pretty good shot from all the local stations here in Mukilteo. My antenna is located in the attic and the signal is rock-solid.

Don

swwg

08-04-05, 01:50 AM

DanKurts

08-04-05, 03:05 AM

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread for several days now trying to figure out which antenna I should get. Right now I'm just using a 10 year old RCA 27" analog set and trying to get OTA TV. My wife and I are thinking about upgrading to a DTV around Christmas. In the meantime I'm trying to figure out what kind of antenna I need to get (A). the best analog OTA signal I can get until I upgrade and (B). HDTV OTA signals once I do upgrade to a DTV.

I'm in Lake Forest Park and I think the closes cross street to me is NE 178th and Ballinger way NE.

My house is surrounded by trees and I'm at the base of a hill that is directly east of me. I was looking into getting a Channel Master 3016 or 3018 and mount it on my roof but I'm not sure if that's going to cut it given all the trees and hills that are around me.

Any advice you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Staticvision
You're in a bad spot. The topo shows it as possible for HD, but I know there's a bunch of tall trees all around and to the south. I've done surveys around there, very little success. It's not that there isn't signal, it's just all chopped by the trees. And the minute the breeze picks a little, all those tree limbs act like a moving wood filter, making it very tough for a HD tuner to lock on. HD channels 9-11-22 will probably come in, hard to tell without seeing your actual site. Channels 4-5-7-13-16 are gong to be bad or worse.
As far as analog goes, also tough. Again, lots of signal around you, but your location is going to give you lots of ghosting. Before there was cable, we used to install analog antennas out there. Not great reception, but it was all you could do, so you may still see some old antennas around there. Once you're north of NE150th, and within 1/2 mile of the lake, the hill falls off fast to Ballinger. Even further north, up the hill, is bad until you get to the very top by the park at 50th and 188th.
I would forget the antenna and just go cable. If you buy one of the newer HD sets with the decoder built in, and I'm pretty sure you have Comcast out there, then you can get the local HD channels without their box. Just plug the cable in. Until you get the HD set, if you don't want to pay for full cable service, ask for the basic local analog channels. Should cost around $12.
Dan

Staticvision

08-04-05, 07:27 AM

DanKurts

08-05-05, 01:29 AM

Dan,

Thanks for your response. You pretty much confirmed my suspicions. What were they thinking when they put all of these trees in?????? :p

I will probably try an antenna anyway and see if anything improves. Right now I'm using a crappy Jensen powered antenna that averages between "OK" and down right unwatchable PQ. Some days we get a mostly clear picture on 22, 16, and 11 and then things are slightly fuzzier on 4, 5 and 7 and there is also some ghosting and 2 faint scrolling lines. 13 is usually the worst, which sucks because we like watching House.

Anyway, thanks for your response. It's a nice thing you do. I'll let you know what happens when I try a roof antenna.

Staticvision
The scrolling lines are there on all the channels. You just can't see them on the stronger ones because the signal to noise ratio is so much better. It's 60 cycle hum bars from either a poor ground problem in your power panel (or the circuit the wall plug is on) or the antenna is near some strong AC power or fluorescent lighting.
Ch13 will always be your worst one, as it has more of the hill to go through.

Whatever you try, don't use an amplifier. It's better to use more antenna. There is a lot of noise around you and the amplifier will just increase it. Signal levels are usually fine there. An amp will NOT get rid of ghosting. You also have two basic directions to go with, so no matter what, one antenna will not get rid of all the ghosting. A rotor might help, but honestly, I think you'll find no matter where you aim it, there will be some ghosting.
If you want to play, a larger antenna will help with the ghosting. The length of the antenna is what does it. We use to use the Channel Master Crossfire VHF only antennas, which they don't make anymore. The 3679 is a UHF/VHF model that works as good or better than the others, for ghosting, which is your main concern.
It needs to be at least 6ft above the roof.
Radio shack antennas are returnable, but their design just doesn't work as well for analog.
Also, trying to get both HD and analog from the same antenna is not going to work for your site.
Patience will help a lot!
Thanks for the good words. We're all here to help, couch 'taters gotta stick together!
Dan

DrCrawn

08-05-05, 07:18 PM

Are you still having audio reception problems with KOMO? How about "freezes"?

Please refresh my memory about your setup...receiver, antenna, etc.

I have been reasonably happy with the signal except for some really low audio a week or so ago. The network audio is passed through without any local adjustments (except for the recently added compressor/limiter).

I have a pretty good shot from all the local stations here in Mukilteo. My antenna is located in the attic and the signal is rock-solid.

Don

No the audio problem was temporary, but I had it on both my Samsung S-irt 351 and using my pc DTV tuner card. I haven't seen any freezes for quite awhile now, but I haven't been watching primetime ABC in HD too much lately also. I suspect KOMO has that fixed though.

I also have a direct line of sight to Fisher Plaza and Queen Anne, and reception for KOMO is 75-90 percent depending on antenna location (silver sensor).

Looks good for KOMO though.

Don Wilkinson

08-05-05, 07:44 PM

No the audio problem was temporary, but I had it on both my Samsung S-irt 351 and using my pc DTV tuner card. I haven't seen any freezes for quite awhile now, but I haven't been watching primetime ABC in HD too much lately also. I suspect KOMO has that fixed though.

I also have a direct line of sight to Fisher Plaza and Queen Anne, and reception for KOMO is 75-90 percent depending on antenna location (silver sensor).

Looks good for KOMO though.

Good enough. It looks like the guys are making some progress. Thanks for the report.

Don

swwg

08-07-05, 02:33 AM

quarque

08-07-05, 11:33 PM

Hi,

I admit this is an obsession. I hope this is my last report. After repositioning
my screenless double bow tie and tuning the stacking distance to 8.25", I can now receive the following stations without rotating the antenna:

CHANNEL SIGNAL%
4-1 100
5-1 85
7-1 90
9-1 95
11-1 85
13-1 100
16-1 90
20-1 60
22-1 100
24-1 60
28-1 80
33-1 70

The result is amazing. The TV towers to the South are 99 degrees apart. Ch 24-1 is to the North. Perhaps the result can be expected because the antenna has a figure 8 radiation pattern, and is therefore capable of receiving from the North and South but not from the East and West if positioned to face North and South. Of course, one may get different results if multipath problem exists. I'll see if they change with weather. Has anyone thought about installing a CM4221 or CM4228 without the screen?

-swwg
Excellent! I once suggested that someone remove the screen off their 4228 to get stations in opposite directions and Dan jumped all over that with "NO, NO, NEVER take the screen off...". Your experiment proved my point: the screen is "optional" depending on your situation. If it works better without it, leave it off. If you're trying to block reflections from the back side, leave it on. Interestingly, I checked my RS double-bowtie (15-624) and the center-to-center spacing of its bowties is 8.25" also, which is 1/4 wavelength for mid-UHF channels. Did you arrive at 8.25 by trial and error or by research?

See the $15 RS D.Bowtie at: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624

DrCrawn

08-08-05, 12:20 AM

Gesh, after such nice SeaFair 16x9 coverage today, it's dissapointing that Deep Impact isn't being switched to HD on 7-1...

My bad, looks like no HD period for this.

ChrisWiggles

08-08-05, 12:40 AM

DanKurts

08-08-05, 12:46 AM

Excellent! I once suggested that someone remove the screen off their 4228 to get stations in opposite directions and Dan jumped all over that with "NO, NO, NEVER take the screen off...". Your experiment proved my point: the screen is "optional" depending on your situation. If it works better without it, leave it off. If you're trying to block reflections from the back side, leave it on. Interestingly, I checked my RS double-bowtie (15-624) and the center-to-center spacing of its bowties is 8.25" also, which is 1/4 wavelength for mid-UHF channels. Did you arrive at 8.25 by trial and error or by research?

See the $15 RS D.Bowtie at: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624

quarque
My reason for saying don't take the screen off is 100% of the time I've tried it, it failed miserably. Tried maybe a dozen times in different locations around the sound.
I've also said "never say never" and "whatever works!"

I'm glad swwg's setup is working fine. A big hats off for all the perseverance to find the magic measurements, and the excellent results. For him, at his location, his receiver, that's a winner. It might work fine for others, too. Cheap and easy to find out. Give it a try. If you want to remove a 4221/4228 screen, can't hurt, and easy to put it back on. Just has twist tabs on the brackets that hold it on.

BTW, the measurement between the bow ties on a 4221/4228 are 8-3/16", which further supports swwg's findings.

If anyone out there try's removing the screen, or swwg's design, let us know the results and where you're located.

Happy Testing!
Dan

swwg

08-08-05, 01:26 AM

Excellent! I once suggested that someone remove the screen off their 4228 to get stations in opposite directions and Dan jumped all over that with "NO, NO, NEVER take the screen off...". Your experiment proved my point: the screen is "optional" depending on your situation. If it works better without it, leave it off. If you're trying to block reflections from the back side, leave it on. Interestingly, I checked my RS double-bowtie (15-624) and the center-to-center spacing of its bowties is 8.25" also, which is 1/4 wavelength for mid-UHF channels. Did you arrive at 8.25 by trial and error or by research?

See the $15 RS D.Bowtie at: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624

The stacking distance of 8.25" was arrived at by trial and error. Greater stacking distance helps the higher UHF channels. As I reduce to 8.25", the signal quality of lower UHF channels improves along with lower signal quality of higher UHF channels. This appears contrary to the theoretical stacking distance for yagi antennas (stacking distance increases with wavelength.) Anyway, what matters to me is the real result.

BIslander

08-08-05, 02:45 AM

DrCrawn

08-08-05, 08:06 PM

Hey! newcomer to this thread, sort of. I was following for a while, then not. Anyway, I just got a simple multidirectional rat shack antenna up and sitting on a bush in my front yard since I'm on top of a hill by greenlake, and I sure do get some purdy reception and pictures! Anyway, hi guys, and you'll have a profoundly anal viewer honing in on your HD signals with an 8-foot wide CRT setup! I'll keep ya on your toes ;)

Nice to have you back again. I am also anal :) Cyber drama is always good for the soul, heh. I bet your 8 foot wide CRT is just amazing looking btw :D :eek: :D :eek:

Keep your finger crossed for tonight's NFL game on KOMO to be stutter free. Looks good so far.

wezar

08-08-05, 08:26 PM

I checked to see if Seafair was going to be in HD on my DirecTV guide. Saw it was SD and just recorded it on my DVR.

Was it posted on AVS that the races were going to be broadcast in 16/9?

Really had a great time. good racing and the air show is awesome.

quarque

08-08-05, 10:47 PM

The stacking distance of 8.25" was arrived at by trial and error. Greater stacking distance helps the higher UHF channels. As I reduce to 8.25", the signal quality of lower UHF channels improves along with lower signal quality of higher UHF channels. This appears contrary to the theoretical stacking distance for yagi antennas (stacking distance increases with wavelength.) Anyway, what matters to me is the real result.
Very interesting. There must be some subtle timing issue due to the fact that the bowtie elements are "X" shaped and thus present a variable spacing with respect to the other bowtie. At each frequency there is a unique location out from the center and also away from the other bowtie where gain is maxed. This reminds me a little of the Square Shooter design. It has 2 spiral arms that offer a continuous range of distances.

DanKurts

08-09-05, 12:20 AM

Anyone have experiece w/ HD OTA on Bainbridge Island (Baker Hill)? My new set will be here in a few days. While I can see the Bank of America building from my deck, there's a hill blocking line of sight to the towers on Queen Anne. I have an antenna in my attic that does an adequate job with VHF reception for KOMO, KING, and KIRO, but is worthless for KCPQ. I have no idea whether this experience means anything for DT reception. Antennaweb says I should be able to receive just about everything with a red UHF antenna.

BIslander
What's your address or cross streets?
Have analog customers there from 30 years ago, and family near Manzanita. Done HD installs, most on the east sides, and many surveys. Have one working 1/4 mile west of Lynwood Center, looking right across the big hill to the east. Signals are hot enough that you can get HD to work even when it looks pretty bad.
Call if it's easier 206-794-3993
Dan

BIslander

08-09-05, 02:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander
Anyone have experiece w/ HD OTA on Bainbridge Island (Baker Hill)? My new set will be here in a few days. While I can see the Bank of America building from my deck, there's a hill blocking line of sight to the towers on Queen Anne. I have an antenna in my attic that does an adequate job with VHF reception for KOMO, KING, and KIRO, but is worthless for KCPQ. I have no idea whether this experience means anything for DT reception. Antennaweb says I should be able to receive just about everything with a red UHF antenna.

BIslander
What's your address or cross streets?
Have analog customers there from 30 years ago, and family near Manzanita. Done HD installs, most on the east sides, and many surveys. Have one working 1/4 mile west of Lynwood Center, looking right across the big hill to the east. Signals are hot enough that you can get HD to work even when it looks pretty bad.
Call if it's easier 206-794-3993
Dan

------

I am up on El Cimo Lane where El Cimo and El Cimo (yes!) intersect, which is a little further than 1/4 mile west of Lynnwood Center. We are up the hill from Point White Drive at an elevation of about 300 feet. I can see Qwest Field through the saddle in the hill to the east, but not Queen Anne. It sounds encouraging. I'll call you Tuesday.

Thanks!

DrCrawn

08-11-05, 02:24 PM

Anyone else get a handful of major breakups on the picture on Veronica Mars last night on UPN11? First time I had seen any problems with an OTA HD signal from UPN...

rmerikle

08-12-05, 12:08 PM

swwg

08-12-05, 02:01 PM

rmerikle

08-12-05, 05:52 PM

I just bought some cheap cable at Fry's. Will QS make that big of a difference? I am guessing yes, but want to make sure before I spend more money on cable.

DrCrawn

08-12-05, 06:06 PM

Cable quality shouldnt matter at all. Were talking zeros and ones here, the picture either comes in or it doesn't. The cable from the stb to the monitor though, that should be a quality cable.

swwg

08-12-05, 08:01 PM

I just bought some cheap cable at Fry's. Will QS make that big of a difference? I am guessing yes, but want to make sure before I spend more money on cable.

RG6 should be good enough.

quarque

08-12-05, 09:59 PM

rmerikle - your question about line-of-sight is valid. You need to figure out which location will give you the least amount of "stuff" to go through (including your building and others around you). If the attic will put you even with the tallest roofs then the signal will easily clear them since it is coming down at you on about a 10 degree slope. But it is still mostly trial and error because reflections may play a bigger role than line-of-sight. Outside is usually better. Higher is usually better. You might also try an attenuator at the back of your receiver if all else fails. Sometimes you can knock down the multipath enough that it won't bother the front-end. You're only about 10-11 miles from QA towers so you should have plenty of signal.

DanKurts

08-13-05, 01:21 AM

Ok guys & gals need some help. I took the plunge and have setup OTA HDTV at my place in North Burien. I am running HDTV through MCE with a HDTV Tuner card. I just installed a DB2 antenna from antenna direct last night with a 100ft cable. It works, but not quite perfect. I will work on it this weekend and could really use some help on what I should be trying differently.

What I have done so far is put the antenna out on the balcony of the second level of my three floor townhouse. I live in North Burien sorta on top of the hill if you can call it that. To the East I have a pretty wide open shot and get Fox from Tacoma almost perfectly to perfectly. My problem is that the North direction towards the Seattle Antennas which are less then 10 miles away are blocked by the rest of the town home complex except kind of a gap between two townhomes. The Seattle channels come in, but they don't seem to lock in perfectly. Should I be thinking higher is better? Also if I put the atenna on the East side of the Townhome it will have a much better shot at the Seattle towers, but then I will have the townhome between the atenna and the West Fox tower not to metion I will need to run the cable all the way across the length of the townhouse. The other option is to try this thing in the attic, but I am thinking no matter where I put it in the attic it will not be as good as putting it outside. Is this assumption wrong? Should I be thinking line of site? What should I be thinking when I try differnt things this weekend? It seems strange that I am less then 10 miles from the Seattle towers and I am not getting a perfect reception. I did have rabbit ears hooked up for the first couple of days and the DB2 is doing a much, much better job, but still not perfect. If I can not obtain perfect then I will have no choice but to go cable and we all know that is no fun.

I am feeding this HDTV into a DT-300 projector which projects a 100+" picture. Football season is right around the corner so I need to figure this out. I feed DVD's through my HTPC and they look absoulely amazing. I owe it all to this to the great people of AVS. Just need to figure out this one last little piece.

rmerikle
Depends on where you are in N. Burien. Normally, there's good to great amounts of signal there, but it needs to be "clean". Trees and buildings can really chop it up. Between 1st and the freeway, you're looking at a lot of hill that rises slowly until the old top hat gas station at 100th for QA towers, and 110th for Capital Hill. It doesn't look like much, but it can be tougher than you think, without townhouses in your way. If you're west of 1st, there's still some hill in the way until Roxbury or more, again, depending on where you are. Signals from 13 come from almost due west of you, not Tacoma. Going on the east side might work, to see north around the other townhouses, if it's mounted right on the NE corner, and forward enough so it can still see west. You may have to turn it some towards the west from due north for 13.
The DB2 has a pretty wide pattern, so it's picking up everything, which is good, but also gets the signals bouncing off the other townhouses. Higher is better in your case. A 4221 would probably do a better job for you. Can be hung off a balcony easily. A yagi type is too directional.
Try as many places as you can. Moving it 6" to 8" in ANY direction can sometimes make the difference. Patience is what's going to do it.
If you can give an address we can check it out a little better to see what is in the way.
Dan

rmerikle

08-13-05, 11:11 AM

What great info! In regards to location I am at 1st Ave SW & SW 108th St. If you know where the water tower is right next to Lake Wood park then I live right next to it. I have joked more then once I should run a line out to the tower and hang my antenna from there. Since the water tower is right next to me I think it would make sense that I am at the highest point on this hill. This is why I went with the DB2 it seemed to have a wide range to it and I woudl think I should get a strong single.

I just need to figure out where that is. The comment on the NE corner has got me thinking and I think that will be the first thing I will try. It will just require a cable run all the way across the town house which is not something I want to do. Especially if signals are comming from Capital Hill. I am thinking the attic is just going to be a good choice since there are three other Town Houses imediately North of me and the atenna would need to go through not only my building, but also a number of other Town Houses.

I'll let you know what I figure out.

swwg

08-16-05, 09:55 PM

Found on the web, radio shack antenna spec:

http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=15-2160&Name=Television%20Antennas&Reuse=N

-swwg

quarque

08-16-05, 10:12 PM

Found on the web, radio shack antenna spec:

http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=15-2160&Name=Television%20Antennas&Reuse=N

-swwg
YEP - that's the baby that got us Spokane at 116 miles a couple months ago. I think it is a great little antenna and the price is right too.

DanKurts

08-17-05, 03:42 AM

YEP - that's the baby that got us Spokane at 116 miles a couple months ago. I think it is a great little antenna and the price is right too.

quarque
I think your reception test results were in large part due to the receivers sensitivity, and your height at that location, among other things. I carry one of the 15-2160's in the van. It's great for close distances around Puget Sound, and can be mounted in many places a larger yagi can't. I've tested it out hundreds of times against others.
It has average gain, and an average lobe. And because of its small size, you can actually pick up from behind and/or to the side, sometimes, and get away with one antenna in a multi direction situation. I believe forum member Budget_HT in Renton uses one, and picks up 33 PAX from behind quite well.
If you need directionality, though, for multipath problems, it's only average at best. That's when you need the larger yagi types, like the Radio Shack 15-2162, Channel Master 4248, Winegard 9032, etc. They also have far better gain, specially through trees. Even the 4221, for gain, usually does better than the 15-2160, and rarely worse.

I mention all this to keep things in perspective.
Obviously, everyones location is different, and YMMV. If you're line of sight to the towers, a 15-2160 might get 30 miles or more around here, but nowhere near the distances quarque achieved. There's always the exception, and you can always take it back if it doesn't work.

For those that want to try one, let quarque or myself look up your location, first.
From the results and experience of others on the forum, we might save you some installation time, and running around, with antenna suggestions that match your needs. If you're curious about any antenna for your site, ask away.

Finally, quarque, I think I found a test site on this side of the mountains, to try what you did, on a small scale. While cruising through the hills near Graham, we went past Lake Kapowsin, and I saw this high ridge to the east, all cleared of trees. Drove up the road, which goes to the town of Ohop. Actually just a small cluster of homes. On the way up the hill, though, there's places where you're 1600ft elevation. The view is forever from almost due north to west to south. We could see downtown Tacoma through the haze. I bet that on a rare clear day, you could see Orcas Island and Mt Constitution, where KVOS transmits from, 122 miles away. Queen Anne is 47 miles. I'm going to drag ALL my antennas up there and have a gain shootout! I have an LG 3200 receiver for testing as well as the analyzer. Now if I can just find that old power inverter...
Ideally, the next test should be some hilltop where we can get more distance from Seattle, both North and South, about a hundred miles. Any suggestions?

Dan

tuquet

08-17-05, 11:05 AM

Good enough. It looks like the guys are making some progress. Thanks for the report.

DonI got plenty of freezes and audio drops during "Remember the Titans". Some of which on commercials and some on News "preview" (what is the correct term?).

This happened on both the LST-3510A and DST-TU52 and no signal drop-outs.

Budget_HT

08-17-05, 03:52 PM

DanKurts,

Regarding RS 15-2160 at my house, I am not picking up anything from the back side, but I am getting a wide angle of "view" from the front side, stretching from Tiger Mountain to the east (PAX, etc.) to Gold Mountain to the west (Fox/KCPQ). Lately, I have favored Gold Mountain and given up Tiger Mountain. When getting both, they were both on the ragged edge. As the trees grow taller between me and Seattle, I may have to make changes. I am considering DirecTV HD LIL and Comcast QAM alternatives in addition to upgrading my antenna and/or cutting some trees on my own property.

Regarding your testing from the Kapowsin area, I might be interested in assisting in that effort if you are interested. I have a very quiet Honda 2KW DC generator/sine wave inverter that should supply ample clean power to work with. I also have 3 brands/vintages of HD receivers we could add to the mix: RCA DTC-100, Hughes HIRD-E86, and DirecTV HR10-250 HD DirecTiVo. I also have a small (15") HD-capable 15" LCD monitor with component and VGA (RGB) inputs that support 1080i and 720p.

swwg

08-17-05, 10:57 PM

This should be an interesting test to try to receive Seattle area TV.

quarque

08-17-05, 11:09 PM

quarque
I think your reception test results were in large part due to the receivers sensitivity, and your height at that location, among other things. I carry one of the 15-2160's in the van. It's great for close distances around Puget Sound, and can be mounted in many places a larger yagi can't. I've tested it out hundreds of times against others.
It has average gain, and an average lobe. And because of its small size, you can actually pick up from behind and/or to the side, sometimes, and get away with one antenna in a multi direction situation. I believe forum member Budget_HT in Renton uses one, and picks up 33 PAX from behind quite well.
If you need directionality, though, for multipath problems, it's only average at best. That's when you need the larger yagi types, like the Radio Shack 15-2162, Channel Master 4248, Winegard 9032, etc. They also have far better gain, specially through trees. Even the 4221, for gain, usually does better than the 15-2160, and rarely worse.

I mention all this to keep things in perspective.
Obviously, everyones location is different, and YMMV. If you're line of sight to the towers, a 15-2160 might get 30 miles or more around here, but nowhere near the distances quarque achieved. There's always the exception, and you can always take it back if it doesn't work.

For those that want to try one, let quarque or myself look up your location, first.
From the results and experience of others on the forum, we might save you some installation time, and running around, with antenna suggestions that match your needs. If you're curious about any antenna for your site, ask away.

Finally, quarque, I think I found a test site on this side of the mountains, to try what you did, on a small scale. While cruising through the hills near Graham, we went past Lake Kapowsin, and I saw this high ridge to the east, all cleared of trees. Drove up the road, which goes to the town of Ohop. Actually just a small cluster of homes. On the way up the hill, though, there's places where you're 1600ft elevation. The view is forever from almost due north to west to south. We could see downtown Tacoma through the haze. I bet that on a rare clear day, you could see Orcas Island and Mt Constitution, where KVOS transmits from, 122 miles away. Queen Anne is 47 miles. I'm going to drag ALL my antennas up there and have a gain shootout! I have an LG 3200 receiver for testing as well as the analyzer. Now if I can just find that old power inverter...
Ideally, the next test should be some hilltop where we can get more distance from Seattle, both North and South, about a hundred miles. Any suggestions?

Dan
I wasn't trying to say the 2160 is something extraordinary - just happened to be what we had for our test. I'm sure a 4221 would have worked also considering our elevation. I looked at the area around Ohop and what looks interesting to me is a peak south of there at around 2250 feet. It would give access to Portland stations (100 mi.) that might otherwise be blocked when you go further north. As for other places around Puget Sound I have not looked very hard. Perhaps Tiger Mountain or Gold Mountain would be pretty decent for some DXing.
I will be tied up solid until about 9/24 on work, vacation, house, work and let's not forget, work. If the weather holds I'd be interested in a DX party. Dave will be in charge of the beer. :)

Budget_HT

08-18-05, 04:47 PM

I would be happy to furnish the beer if needed, although I personally do not drink the stuff (nothing against folks who do, though). I can also transport some overflow equipment or antennae that Dan might not be able to fit into his vehicle all at once.

swwg

08-19-05, 10:08 AM

I got plenty of freezes and audio drops during "Remember the Titans". Some of which on commercials and some on News "preview" (what is the correct term?).

This happened on both the LST-3510A and DST-TU52 and no signal drop-outs.

Here is the hard question: How can you tell whether the problem is on the transmitter side OR on the receiver side, OR in between (in the air)?

-swwg

DJB64

08-19-05, 01:41 PM

quarque

08-19-05, 02:14 PM

New member...info I get here is great! I have SD Dish Network in Sammamish (w/DVR) and I love it. Looking at buying my first plasma and using OTA antenna for local HD. I get channels 16 and 22 with my existing antenna, which I learned on this thread is good indicator that I will receive OTA HD.

My question is: what size are the OTA HD pictures on your TV screen? Do they fill the whole screen or are there small/large bars on top and/or sides? The salesman at BB in Bellevue told me yesterday that the OTA HD picture from KIRO, for example, is in 4:3 and has the word "KIRO" printed vertically on each side of the screen (where there would otherwise be black bands)!!! I think he is full of it...is he?
The size & shape of the picture depends on the content provider. TRUE HD is always 16:9. However the content, such as in a network movie can be letterboxed inside that 16:9 frame. In that case you have black bars along the top & bottom. Some stations transmit upconverted SD pictures in 16:9. NONE the TRUE HD content is in 4:3 format. When you receive 4:3 content you have options on the receiver and/or TV to stretch the picture horizontally (wide faces) or stretch equally (normal faces but the picture is cut off top & bottom). The latter method is what I do on occasion where the loss at the top & bottom is no big deal for the particular content. Some sets like my panny have a unique stretch mode that stretches 4:3 material more at the edges and less in the middle. This way the faces look normal when near the middle of the screen. I use this the most on 4:3 cable content. BTW, I've never seen "KIRO" vertically on the side, but then I don't watch that much KIRO. He might have been talking about "filler" content that stations do during HD network programs. They leave the format in 16:9 for their 4:3 content and fill in the sides with graphics. These are temporary modes like at the beginning of a ball game.

quarque

08-19-05, 02:30 PM

Here is the hard question: How can you tell whether the problem is on the transmitter side OR on the receiver side, OR in between (in the air)?

-swwg

I have seen this "freeze" problem on almost every station at some time or other. The signal level was fine, so the problem was obviously at the program origination or distribution to the final transmitter. There are several critical points along the way in a network transmission. Any one of those can be interrupted temporarily causing a freeze. I believe the equipment at the locals just keeps sending the same frame over and over if no new frames show up during this time. This shows up as a freeze. Some receivers will go blank and others will freeze the last frame during a dropout. Mine freezes for 1 second and then goes blank when there is signal loss or bad interference.

A receiver can't create these freeze situations on its own. It is only doing what the arriving signal gives it to work with. Obviously, if you have swaying trees you are not getting steady signal. The cases I've seen on my set DID show a steady signal so it had to be at the transmitting end. You need to watch your signal level meter closely when these happen and see if it is bouncing around.

DJB64

08-19-05, 02:36 PM

Thanks! I am struggling with size I should buy... 42 vs 50 and, if 42 is OK, whether I should go ED or HD. I have a Mitsubishi 45" projection now. We sit about 15 feet away. When we play "widescreen" DVDs the display is almost exactly 42" (diag) so that would tell me that a 42" plasma is OK, except I am concerned that the display on the 42" plasma would get squeezed again, resulting in an even smaller picture than we have now. What is your opinion? How frequently do you have bars on side or top? Given how quickly things change, is it better to go with EDTV (the Panny is amazing) and "wait til next year" (like the Mariners) on HD?

quarque

08-19-05, 04:03 PM

My panny is 47" and our viewing distance is about 12 feet. I found this combination to be pretty good. 42" would be too small (I think) if you are beyond 12 feet, but that is just my opinion. But, you should be able to expand most content to fill the screen. So if your eyes are still good, 42" might be OK. Try out some sets in the store at 15 feet and see.

I rarely watch anything with bars - I have gotten used to stretched faces. I would not waste your money on an ED set unless you feel HD is not worth it. ED is impressive compared to old sets but if it were me spending a wad of cash I'd go whole hog.

Have you looked at DLP? Some of the latest ones are really impressive and cheaper than some plasmas. I like the lack of "screen door" effect like you get when too close to a plasma.

Budget_HT

08-19-05, 04:13 PM

DJB64,

First, welcome to THE forum.

I recently installed a Toshiba 44" DLP for a relative. I think it has one of the best overall HD pictures I have seen. I prefer OAR (original aspect ratio), so a TV that is not subject to burn in is a good choice for me. That would EXCLUDE CRT and plasma units, but include DLP and LCD.

Good luck and keep us "posted."

Mr Radley

08-19-05, 04:42 PM

I read in the paper today that the monday night football game between the Hawks and Cowboys was not sold out and would be blacked out locally. Since when do they black out exhibition games? I was hoping to watch this game in HD on KOMO assuming monday night pre-season games are broadcast in Hi-Def. Can anyone confirm this game will not be broadcast locally?

DJB64

08-19-05, 05:28 PM

quarque

08-19-05, 07:03 PM

DJB64 - if your old antenna has a decent UHF section then it may work fine. You won't know until you try it.

quarque

08-19-05, 07:11 PM

Radley - no mention of any blackout on seattletimes.com, titantv.com or komotv.com websites. Are you sure about this?

Edit: the chatter on the Seahawks.com message board seems to verify your post. How does the NFL think the blackout policy is going to generate more revenue? Everyone I know has been pissed off about this for years (like me) and refuse to to go to games anyway. They are rediculously expensive if you want a decent seat. Then you add parking, food, etc. The whole money-grubbing situation makes me puke. Many years ago I considered season tickets. But I have since seen the light...

Check out a website about Blackout Protection: http://www.nflbop.com
You pay $54/year to get them to buy out every home game. My question is: how many people need to sign up for this to happen? I see no guarantee anywhere about when they will start buying tickets. Obviously not yet in Seattle! You might just be throwing your money down the toilet. In reading the fine print on their site it says the protection plan is based on 165,000 members per stadium. Just how likely is that to happen in Seattle or any other medium-size market? I doubt they have even 10% of that right now for Seattle. I smell scam...

JM Anthony

08-19-05, 11:18 PM

DJB - welcome aboard! Assuming you're in the Seattle area, I'd boogie over to the Roosevelt Magnolia A/V store to check out the different viewing options they've got as it's a pretty good stable and good folks to work with. My family room is about 15' deep by 20' wide. I'm running a 61" Samsung DLP and the bang for the buck is pretty high. I recorded America last night from Ch. 9 and I'm replaying it now (I'm feeding the Sammy with a Dish 942) and the PQ is just awesome.

PM me if you want to chat more.

John

DanKurts

08-20-05, 05:43 AM

I was just looking at the Panny 50...wow! It was playing a DVD, with bars showing at top and bottom...I selected zoom mode and it filled the entire screen with nothing cut off at top and bottom...i forgot to check the sides, but assuming it did cut off part of the picture on the side, it was still impressive. Why wouldn't you watch all programs (OTA, DVD, and HD satellite) in this mode? Am I missing something?

BTW...it is true that I can use my existing, very large, Radio Shack antenna (I installed in my attic 10 years ago to pick up SD OTA broadcasts) to pick up OTA HD Signals?

Thanks for all the help! My head is spinning alot less than it was yesterday now that I found this site!

Dan

Dan
One of the problems with some stations, like KIRO, is that they DO transmit a HD 16:9 frame, but the content (program) is 4:3, like their local newscast. When they first started back in 98, they had the KIRO logo in the bottom right of the frame, where there's no picture, just black side bars. Later, they dropped the logo. On some of the older HD sets, once they receive a 16:9 signal, 1080i or 720p, they lock the screen size. If your set had adjustable screen size, like the Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, and others, and you were watching a regular definition station, you could stretch the 4:3 picture, zoom it in, stretch it only on the outer 25% of the sides, so the center looked normal (but then the faces would get stretched wierd on the edges!), and do other screen filling tricks. Once they received a 16:9 HD signal, though, you couldn't change it. Newer sets now scale or stretch in different ways, a bit better, and they do allow you to stretch a 16:9, somewhat, depending on the brand of set. Now throw in the fact that cable boxes, satellite tuners, and some built in HD decoders all have their own versions of stretching, and it just compounds the possibilities, or confusion, depending on your idea of fun!
But wait, there's more !
Then the stations play around with various forms, like KING 5 news, where it flips back and forth, depending on which floor camera is being used, from 16:9 and 4:3, all while still being a 1080i HD signal. KIRO does show 16:9 national HD programming as it should be, like the sports shows or prime time shows.
And there's still more.
KONG shows old TV reruns, upconverted, in 1080i, but because they were filmed in 4:3, you get a 16:9 frame with a 4:3 picture inside. Some sets won't allow you to stretch it out the picture to the sides, because the frame is already to the sides. Other stations upconvert like this, too.
Still more......
Not all movies are filmed in 16:9. They were filmed in 1.78:1, 2.25:1, 2.78:1, etc.
So, depending on what you're watching, you may still have some small black bars top and bottom, though usually no where near what a letterbox DVD looks like on a regular 4:3 TV. Some of the new models allow stretching the DVD and HD content, so play with this option when you're looking at both, to see what they'll do. This makes living with all the different types of picture sizes a breeze, and you don't have to be stuck in one mode all the time.

So......
having watched a gazillion different sets and setups, I usually tell people to try and get the vertical height of the picture back to at least what the 4:3 set was you had. In your case, the 45" 4:3 set equivalent in 16:9 would probably be about 50" to 55". It's what you're used to already. Yes it will cost a few pennies more, but you'll be much happier. The good news is most of the new sets allow you to stretch the regular content many ways to fit the screen. At first it may seem a little fat, but in a few days, you'll not notice it. What you will notice is how great the picture is in HD. When I've come back to a customer after a few weeks or months, not one said they wish it were smaller, even when they thought initially it was a bit bigger than they needed.
And get HD, not ED. You're going to live with this for many years, and we're only going to get more HD content, so get the good stuff. It IS worth it!

I agree with JM Anthony, truck over to Magnolia. They have some really good displays setup, of all different types, for you to play with. And, if you have a favorite DVD you've watched a lot, take it along and have them throw it in. Or, one of the best times to preview is at 5PM, when all the local newscasts are in HD. That's about as good as it's going to get. You can really compare, then.

Will your antenna work in the attic? Most likely, not. The UHF/VHF combo antennas usually have small UHF sections. In Sammamish, unless you're right on the edge of the hill looking at downtown, a larger UHF antenna is what usually works best, and they need to be outdoors. Attics just make it worse there. If you get channels 16 & 22, it means you have a chance at HD. Analog reception can work with far less signal than HD. But it won't hurt to try. If it doesn't, then send us your address, or cross streets, and we'll look it up and figure out what might work better.

Let us know what you end up with, and how it works.

Dan

DJB64

08-20-05, 01:23 PM

DanKurts: Thanks for such a clear and comprehensive post! I just am on my way to Video Only in Bellevue to pick up a 50" Panny. They have it on sale for 3599 w/one year 0% interest! And...because they are out of stock right now, they will give me another $140 off because I have to wait until next week for delivery! I can't pass up that deal. They also had great deals on the 42" Panny (ED for 1699 and HD for 2699) but I think you are absolutely right about the screen size.

The VO guy was very knowledgeable and spent an hour with me last night showing different HD OTA channels, SD OTA channels, and a DVD, and showing me how the various aspect ratios work. Now, if I am lucky enought to have my existing attic antenna work for OTA HD...I'll be set for football season! Now that I have the TV on order, I have my eyes on the 942 at Costco for $489...

JM Anthony: Do you have OTA HD antenna hook-up? Can you pause live TV, or only record? Are your SD channels any better with the 942 than with your old SD receiver? I have a 508 PVR right now. Works great and my wife loves it because she can actually figure out how to record shows. Plus the PPV movies are pretty good. I don't think I'll ever return to cable.

Thanks again to everybody for their help. I'll keep you posted as I lose by HD virginity!

Dan

JM Anthony

08-20-05, 02:03 PM

JM Anthony: Do you have OTA HD antenna hook-up? Can you pause live TV, or only record? Are your SD channels any better with the 942 than with your old SD receiver? I have a 508 PVR right now. Works great and my wife loves it because she can actually figure out how to record shows. Plus the PPV movies are pretty good. I don't think I'll ever return to cable.

Thanks again to everybody for their help. I'll keep you posted as I lose by HD virginity!

Dan
Dan,

A lot of our HD viewing is OTA and this will sound like a commercial, but Dan Kurts did the install and he did a terrific job! I live in a little urban forest in Seattle and get rock solid reception on all of the locals worth watching. Dishdepot.com will give you a credit on your old receiver. The 942 is very intuitive, supports two TVs through one receiver (one HD or SD and one SD) and has named based recording. And yes, you can pause live TV.

Happy hunting!! John

swwg

08-20-05, 06:11 PM

I have seen this "freeze" problem on almost every station at some time or other. The signal level was fine, so the problem was obviously at the program origination or distribution to the final transmitter. There are several critical points along the way in a network transmission. Any one of those can be interrupted temporarily causing a freeze. I believe the equipment at the locals just keeps sending the same frame over and over if no new frames show up during this time. This shows up as a freeze. Some receivers will go blank and others will freeze the last frame during a dropout. Mine freezes for 1 second and then goes blank when there is signal loss or bad interference.

A receiver can't create these freeze situations on its own. It is only doing what the arriving signal gives it to work with. Obviously, if you have swaying trees you are not getting steady signal. The cases I've seen on my set DID show a steady signal so it had to be at the transmitting end. You need to watch your signal level meter closely when these happen and see if it is bouncing around.

quarque,

Thank you for the excellent explanation.

-swwg

DJB64

08-20-05, 07:06 PM

JM Anthony: Just to clarify...you can pause live OTA HD broadcasts on your 942? or only shows from satellite?

quarque

08-20-05, 10:10 PM

I would be happy to furnish the beer if needed, although I personally do not drink the stuff (nothing against folks who do, though).
How about a sassy little Chardonnay or nice smooth old Scotch? I actually prefer either of those to beer most of the time. :)

quarque

08-20-05, 10:38 PM

...

Thanks again to everybody for their help. I'll keep you posted as I lose by HD virginity!

Dan
I look back on my "first time" with great fondness. I was in my early 50's and very nervous. She was "very experienced" and perfectly calm. Some people prefer the term "used" or "demo" but I don't care for the connotations. We met at Sears and she was sitting there all alone. When I was apprised of her price it was love at first sight. As I took her home I was very excited. Questions bombarded my brain constantly. Would she perform? Would I be happy? Could this relationship last? Was the extended warranty worth it? Trembling, I plugged her in and her face lit up like it was Christmas. The colors! The clarity! I watched late into the night until I was satiated. I fell asleep right in front of her but there were no complaints! We enjoyed breakfast together the next morning with a new sort of familiarity. No words were needed. Just a comforting click.

Sorry, I got carried away.

DJB64

08-20-05, 11:06 PM

Very good!!! :)

All women loved to be turned on...just have to know which button to push!

DanKurts

08-21-05, 12:49 AM

I look back on my "first time" with great fondness. I was in my early 50's and very nervous. She was "very experienced" and perfectly calm. Some people prefer the term "used" or "demo" but I don't care for the connotations. We met at Sears and she was sitting there all alone. When I was apprised of her price it was love at first sight. As I took her home I was very excited. Questions bombarded my brain constantly. Would she perform? Would I be happy? Could this relationship last? Was the extended warranty worth it? Trembling, I plugged her in and her face lit up like it was Christmas. The colors! The clarity! I watched late into the night until I was satiated. I fell asleep right in front of her but there were no complaints! We enjoyed breakfast together the next morning with a new sort of familiarity. No words were needed. Just a comforting click.

Sorry, I got carried away.

Geeze, quarque!!
I gotta go take a cold shower.....
Dan

DanKurts

08-21-05, 01:04 AM

JM Anthony

08-21-05, 03:00 AM

JM Anthony: Just to clarify...you can pause live OTA HD broadcasts on your 942? or only shows from satellite?
I can pause live OTA HD broadcasts. The 942 has pretty quickly picked up the reputation for being Dish's best box out of the blocks. It really works quite well.

John

robglasser

08-21-05, 01:17 PM

The VO guy was very knowledgeable and spent an hour with me last night showing different HD OTA channels, SD OTA channels, and a DVD, and showing me how the various aspect ratios work. Now, if I am lucky enought to have my existing attic antenna work for OTA HD...I'll be set for football season! Now that I have the TV on order, I have my eyes on the 942 at Costco for $489...

Dan

Um, I believe the receiver your seeing at Costco for $489 is the 921 not the 942. I've never seen a 942 at Costco, in fact I saw the 921 again at Costco yesterday for $489. They've been selling them there since December. The retail price on a 942 is $699, unless you are a new sub then you can lease one for $250 + $5 a month. If I were you I'd stay away from the 921, I used one for about 2 months until the 942 came out and it is crap. Full of bugs, annoyances, and completely unstable. I was to the point I'd have to hard reboot the thing almost daily to fix various bugs.

As for Video Only make sure your comfortable with their return policy. You can only return for store credit if the TV doesn't work out for you. In fact when I asked about it the sales guy I was talking to was a jerk, I'll never shop there again. If you are going for your first HD set you'll really want to shop carefully. Take your own DVD with you so you can compare apples to apples for TV quality. Store HD loops are not the best thing to use for reference. Also, if they have a cable/sat feed get it hooked up to the TV. Especially check out SD material since that is still the majority of programming out there. You'll want to make sure it's an acceptable picture for you. Each technology has it's pluses and minuses and which one is best for you may be different than others on this forum.

For example, I thought DLP was the answer for me so I bought one (with a 30 day money back return policy) last year. I used it for all of about 3 days before I started seeing the notorius Rainbow Effect, and once I saw it I couldn't stop seeing it. Also, my living room is really bright during the day and the rear projection TV wasn't ideal. I then tried ED Plasma to save money, and Screen Door Effect was horrible. Then went for a cheap HD Plasma from Costco, Vizio, and it was bad too, just really poor image quality and brightness shift issues. Finally settled on a Pioneer HD Plasma and it is perfect for me. Anyways, make sure you do your reasearch before dropping that much money, especially if you are going to buy from a Video Only where you are stuck with them once you make the purchase. Personally I find Costco is the best place to buy since they have the best return policy, so if they have what you are looking for I'd go try them first.

Wow my quick reply on the 942 turned into quite a long winded post. Thanks.

quarque

08-21-05, 10:26 PM

Budget_HT
Sounds good. I'll let you know when I get some time set aside. Also going to try and find that peak quarque was talking about that might give a view to Portland.
quarque, can you give a Lat/Long on that?
Dan
There are a bunch of peaks, roads are another story. Peruse the area near N46.8652, W122.1177 You would need road access on the south slope of a peak for Portland (obviously). Not all the peaks have roads where you want and it is hard to tell just what sort of "road" these squiggly lines might be. Some Forest Service roads are good, some are impossible. Then there are trees. It would take quite some time to find a decent spot. That's what I liked about eastern WA. No trees!

quarque

08-21-05, 10:43 PM

...

I just am on my way to Video Only in Bellevue to pick up a 50" Panny.

...

Dan
Like some other posters, I too would be careful about Video Only. I have heard a number of bad stories about them. Just like on the internet, you should never buy from the absolute cheapest source. There is a reason why they are cheap and it is usually not because of good service!

DJB64

08-21-05, 11:22 PM

chipvideo

08-22-05, 09:14 AM

robglasser

08-22-05, 05:13 PM

Robglasser: Thanks for your comments...it is the 921 at Costco...guess I'll stear clear for now.

My purchase at VO is done...although I don't get the Panny until later this week. I'll keep you all posted on how they perform (both the store and the TV)...

I know a few people that have been happy with their VO purchase too. If they have the TV you want it and it's the best price then you should be fine, I think you'll run into problems if you don't like it and want to return/exchange it. Because I had already had issues with what I thought was the perfect TV for me (DLP) and had to return it, I wasn't going to buy from anyone unless they had a money back guarantee. Watching one of these TVs in a store does not do them justice, you really have to get it into your environment, with your components, and correct settings before you can really tell.

As for the 921, while I don't recommend it, some people have been ok with it, and since it is a purchase from Costco you can always return it if it ends up having all the problems I expierenced. If you are a dish customer and you want to stay with them yet record HD, you only have 2 options, the 921 for $489 or the 942 for $699.00. Though personally, if I had to do it all over again I'd spend the extra $200.00 on the 942 in a heartbeat, I was just lucky and sqeaked into a short lived deal where existing subs could get the lease deal for $250.00.

swwg

08-22-05, 10:06 PM

quarque

08-22-05, 10:13 PM

I cannot get komo for the life of me.

I get:

KING5@92%
KIRO@87%
KOMO sometimes gets to 60% and then goes away.

I am only 9 miles from the broadcast centers. I live in Shoreline. I bought this antenna.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2185

I thought that komo and kiro were in the same basic area. What do I need to do to get this channel. My cable length is 100 feet so the powered antennae should solve this right? I get the other ones perfect. KOMO just wont come in for me.
It appears you were sucked in by the overpriced whiz-bang high-tech boomerangy thing. I've been following antenna reports for several years on AVS and most of the "amplified gee-whiz" things do not work all that well. That said, it still may not be your problem. At 9 miles you should have plenty of signal, even though KOMO's radiation pattern drops off as you get due north.

So the other obvious things are blockages and reflections. Both of those can be highly affected by antenna placement. So before you return your RS gee-whiz you should try as many different locations as you can. A change of even 6 inches can sometimes do the trick. Is this thing mounted indoors, an attic or outdoors? Are you shooting through a raft of trees or buildings?

The next possibility is TOO MUCH signal. This is highly possible with powered antennas at that close. You can either install an inline attenuator (RS # 15-678) or exchange your antenna for an unpowered one such as the 15-2160.

If you were starting from scratch I would have recommended a Channel Master 4221 or similar 4-bay bowtie design. They work well most of the time below 40 miles.

RS is pretty good about returns and exchanges.

robglasser

08-23-05, 01:17 AM

DanKurts

08-23-05, 05:01 AM

It appears you were sucked in by the overpriced whiz-bang high-tech boomerangy thing. I've been following antenna reports for several years on AVS and most of the "amplified gee-whiz" things do not work all that well. That said, it still may not be your problem. At 9 miles you should have plenty of signal, even though KOMO's radiation pattern drops off as you get due north.

So the other obvious things are blockages and reflections. Both of those can be highly affected by antenna placement. So before you return your RS gee-whiz you should try as many different locations as you can. A change of even 6 inches can sometimes do the trick. Is this thing mounted indoors, an attic or outdoors? Are you shooting through a raft of trees or buildings?

The next possibility is TOO MUCH signal. This is highly possible with powered antennas at that close. You can either install an inline attenuator (RS # 15-678) or exchange your antenna for an unpowered one such as the 15-2160.

If you were starting from scratch I would have recommended a Channel Master 4221 or similar 4-bay bowtie design. They work well most of the time below 40 miles.

RS is pretty good about returns and exchanges.

chipvideo
What quarque said, I'll second that. As he said, what's the tree situation like?
Send your address or cross street and we'll check it out.
Dan

DanKurts

08-23-05, 05:05 AM

There are a bunch of peaks, roads are another story. Peruse the area near N46.8652, W122.1177 You would need road access on the south slope of a peak for Portland (obviously). Not all the peaks have roads where you want and it is hard to tell just what sort of "road" these squiggly lines might be. Some Forest Service roads are good, some are impossible. Then there are trees. It would take quite some time to find a decent spot. That's what I liked about eastern WA. No trees!

quarque
Thanks. I've been down some of those dirt roads in my youth, looking for quiet places, ya know (nod-nod, wink-wink), always fun when you meet up with a logging truck coming down the hill with a full load and using about 90% of the road. Talk about a major pucker factor !!
Keep you posted.
Dan

chipvideo

08-23-05, 11:00 AM

chipvideo
What quarque said, I'll second that. As he said, what's the tree situation like?
Send your address or cross street and we'll check it out.
Dan

I could take a picture of how its mounted and all and post it later.

It is attatched to my chimny. About 7 feet above my roof. I just find it weird that I get 5.1@90% and 7.1 at around 85% all day long. Seems as though the only time I get the 4.1 channel is when was raining really hard last week.

DrCrawn

08-23-05, 08:42 PM

I'm out of town ATM, and I miss KOMO-DT.

So was the football game really blacked out for you guys last night?

quarque

08-23-05, 09:57 PM

yep, blacker than a coal bin at midnight...

DrCrawn

08-24-05, 02:12 AM

Hmm, interesting. I wonder how many seats teams are going to be able to sell when the majority of us are watching 100% of NFL games in HD.

Don't know about you guys, but I'd rather crack a beer on my couch with my thumb on the "flipper" and watch the game in HD then fight crowds and sit in crummy seats.

For the price of "good" seasons tickets I could fund Pat Robertson's...eh better not. :)

DanKurts

08-24-05, 02:44 AM

I could take a picture of how its mounted and all and post it later.

It is attatched to my chimny. About 7 feet above my roof. I just find it weird that I get 5.1@90% and 7.1 at around 85% all day long. Seems as though the only time I get the 4.1 channel is when was raining really hard last week.

chipvideo
Different frequencies, and the reception properties of the antenna, can easily make one channel work better than another, among other wierdness.
Send a cross street or address, and I can compare it to other jobs in you area, and look at it on a map program and give you a better idea why.
Dan

DJB64

08-25-05, 12:42 PM

robglasser

08-25-05, 01:18 PM

Not sure why people seem so concerned about VO return policy...you get full refund in first 30 days. Store credit applies after 30 days and up to one year. Seems very fair to me. Not everyone can be a Nordstrom or Costco...and the money I saved is certainly worth it, IMO.

BTW...was told yesterday that I may have to wait two weeks to get my Panny...sigh!

That's not what the salesperson I spoke to last year told me. I was told that I could return for store credit within 30days for any reason, and after 30 days to a year if it breaks, but that was it. I specifically asked if I could get my money back within 30 days if I was not happy with the TV and was told, and I quote "Nope, store credit only, we're not in the TV rental business". I then explained I'm not looking to rent, but it's really hard to tell if a TV is good fit for me until it's in my house. I really want to purchase, but when spending 3k or more it needs to be the best I can get. He shrugged me off like I was lying. That was then I told him I'll take my business across the street to one of half a dozen other stores with a money back guarantee. He laughed and said go for it you won't get as good of a deal as here. At which point I told him to keep dreaming because I guarantee I'll get as good of a deal as here, or better, which I did. Does he not understand price matching???? You might want to double check what you were told, maybe they've realized the errors of their ways and changed their policy in the last 10 months. I can walk into Circuit City, Best Buy, Magnolia Hi-Fi (aka Best Buy), Costco, you name it and have at least a 30 day money back guarantee. Oh, and for what it's worth I got Magnolia/Best Buy to price match the same TV I was looking at at Video Only (Panny ED Plasma), but ended up buying a different TV from Costco in the long run (Pioneeer HD Plasma).

cmguy

08-25-05, 04:05 PM

I've notice in the past few days all HD programs KOMO are shown in SD (4:3). What gives? The only HD program on these days is local news and in that the audio seems to come and go.

Charles O

08-25-05, 05:36 PM

ABC is upgrading it's network...no HD from 8/21-25.

HiTymz

08-25-05, 09:06 PM

quarque

08-25-05, 10:10 PM

...

BTW...was told yesterday that I may have to wait two weeks to get my Panny...sigh!

... and so it begins ... (insert ominous background music here)

quarque

08-25-05, 10:47 PM

quarque
Thanks. I've been down some of those dirt roads in my youth, looking for quiet places, ya know (nod-nod, wink-wink), always fun when you meet up with a logging truck coming down the hill with a full load and using about 90% of the road. Talk about a major pucker factor !!
Keep you posted.
Dan

I had one of those "pucker factor" experiences myself. I was driving a recently acquired Saab 90-series sedan in northern Wisconsin about 30 years ago. I was taking some friends to a cabin for a relaxing weekend of x-country skiing. It was late January and snowing very lightly. We had not seen a single car on this windy little backroad as we sped along. I was thinking "gee, this front-wheel drive with Michelin radials works pretty well in the snow..." As I started into another modest corner going 45 we suddenly saw a logger coming at us full tilt down the middle of this narrow road. Without even thinking about it or touching the brakes I took the Saab up on the outside snow bank of the turn and back down just as the truck went by. It was like something out of a Bond movie and over so fast we didn't even have time for an "oh s**t". I'm sure we would have all been crushed if I had not done this manuever. Needless to say, large quantities of drink were consumed in front of the fireplace that evening as we dried our shorts. I was referred to as "007" for many months after.

argo1234

08-25-05, 11:28 PM

DrCrawn

08-25-05, 11:42 PM

I mentioned a while back that I work for one of the cable companies.

We are also experiencing problems with KOMO on our HD feed and our digital simulcast (beta testing channels 2-29)

Our managment is fully aware of the problem and did not give any info (if any) received from KOMO.

I hope this info helps. I'd really hate to see anyone going crazy and spending many hours "on the roof" moving the antenna around.

Which cable company? Please tell me it's not MDM...

To the other poster, I assume you only have the option of MDM downtown like me. If so, sorry to say MDM is about as incapable as it can get, worse they have flat out lied to me for two years regarding future HD programming.

MDM has all these exclusive agreements around the city and the stuff stinks.

To be fair, they do offer the locals in HD though- nothing more, but it will cost you an arm and a leg, and frankly you can get those for free like I do.

I've told MDM that as soon as they offer a reasonable HD package I'll sign up, apparently they just don't seem to notice what's going on around them :rolleyes:

argo1234

08-25-05, 11:49 PM

Which cable company? Please tell me it's not MDM...

To the other poster, I assume you only have the option of MDM downtown like me. If so, sorry to say MDM is about as incapable as it can get, worse they have flat out lied to me for two years regarding future HD programming.

MDM has all these exclusive agreements around the city and the stuff stinks.

To be fair, they do offer the locals in HD though- nothing more, but it will cost you an arm and a leg, and frankly you can get those for free like I do.

I've told MDM that as soon as they offer a reasonable HD package I'll sign up, apparently they just don't seem to notice what's going on around them :rolleyes:

If I understand you correctly you're using over the air HD through anthena. What's your experience with that?

swwg

08-26-05, 02:27 AM

Hi,

Just wondering if there are any HDTV options in downtown Seattle? Seems like Comcast doesn't service my area and Millenium cable doesn't have HDTV yet.

I don't really want to end up using an anthena, however, if that's my only choices what's everybody's experience with reception quality?

Thanks in advance.

The reception quality depends on the absence of trees and tall buildings in the line of sight of the TV towers. Obstructions can be significant if they are within 4 blocks and if the buildings are more than 4 stories high and the trees more than 30 ft tall.

My experience in the Shoreline area is very good, despite 40-50ft tall evergreen trees within a block of me in the line of sight spreading over 10 blocks. I figure the elevation at my place is about 450ft above sea level and that probably helps me.

Another factor is that the gaps between trees in my area are large enough that I get the TV signal through the trees but it takes a lot of patience to find the best spot for my antennas.

With a "silver sensor" indoor antenna, i can get 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 7-2, 9-1 to 9-5, 11-1, 13-1, 16-1, 16-2, 22-1. I have since then added a second "silver sensor" and an indoor double bow tie (home made) to receive 24-1, and 20-1, 28-1 to 28-4, 33-1 to 33-4 respectively. I think I'm doing quite well with indoor antennas.

I did spend many hours in a two month period doing reception testing. Most people in my situation would probably have given up - I read from the Internet that most people give up too quickly and that they even complain about having to rotate their indoor antenna that does not have a knob - example a silver sensor antenna.

I perfectly understand why people would opt for cable or dish TV - no hassle with antenna and there's the large number choices of program packages. But then, OTA set is best for high definition TV - right?

-swwg

DanKurts

08-26-05, 03:01 AM

I had one of those "pucker factor" experiences myself. I was driving a recently acquired Saab 90-series sedan in northern Wisconsin about 30 years ago. I was taking some friends to a cabin for a relaxing weekend of x-country skiing. It was late January and snowing very lightly. We had not seen a single car on this windy little backroad as we sped along. I was thinking "gee, this front-wheel drive with Michelin radials works pretty well in the snow..." As I started into another modest corner going 45 we suddenly saw a logger coming at us full tilt down the middle of this narrow road. Without even thinking about it or touching the brakes I took the Saab up on the outside snow bank of the turn and back down just as the truck went by. It was like something out of a Bond movie and over so fast we didn't even have time for an "oh s**t". I'm sure we would have all been crushed if I had not done this manuever. Needless to say, large quantities of drink were consumed in front of the fireplace that evening as we dried our shorts. I was referred to as "007" for many months after.

quarque
Instinct's a good thing!
Think I found a spot.. Try N47.0107 W123.0332
It's in Capital State Forest. Have to get some maps. I really don't want to do 4wheel time, but if the roads are decent dirt, that's cool. There's a ridge to the south that can see both Portland, a little over a 100 miles, and Seattle, about 50+ miles. Can't quite see Orcas, but I can test that from the Kapowsin/Ohop site, where it's 123 miles. Anything along that line should work. The one you suggested has a peak in the way down near St Helens for Portland.
When I get the roads sorted, we'll make some plans.
Didn't really see any other peaks that have a clean shot at Portland, with out going over 2000ft.
Dan

tg3

08-26-05, 03:53 PM

With a "silver sensor" indoor antenna, i can get 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 7-2, 9-1 to 9-5, 11-1, 13-1, 16-1, 16-2, 22-1. I have since then added a second "silver sensor" and an indoor double bow tie (home made) to receive 24-1, and 20-1, 28-1 to 28-4, 33-1 to 33-4 respectively. I think I'm doing quite well with indoor antennas.
How do you combine the antennas?

DJB64

08-26-05, 04:38 PM

robglasser: My VO receipt says: "If for any reason you are unhappy with the equipment your purchase from VO, you may return it for a FULL REFUND (their own caps) or exchange within 30 days of purchase or delivery. Opened box units may be returned for exchange credit only, providing they are in "as-new" condition...Exchaneg credits expire 12 months after date of issue." Perhaps they have changed their policy from last year.

quarque: Today VO told me next Tuesday, so maybe not so bad as it seems. Good thing is it extends their 30 day (from delivery) price match guarantee.

BTW, while I was there today they unveiled the new Hitachi 42" HD. WOW! If I wasn't in the market for a 50, I might have switched. USB inputs, computer inputs, POWER swivel base. Very cool!

DrCrawn

08-26-05, 05:07 PM

If I understand you correctly you're using over the air HD through anthena. What's your experience with that?

It's cat and mouse for awhile, but now that I'm dialed in I get every channel.

My setup is a single Silver Sensor on the 6th floor of an apartment near the intersection of Bellevue and Pine to a Samsung S-IRT 351.

I also have an ATI HDTV Wonder for my PC to record the stuff. That has it's own Silver Sensor.

9/10 you're going to get better picture quality from over the air than cable or satellite. Of course I have no other channels ATM, but frankly I don't miss all that stuff too much. I do wish I could get some other premium HD channels via MDM cable. But of course MDM sucks big time. In my opinion they are going to try to get bought out instead of ever offering 21st century service. If Comcast made them a good offer, all of Seattle would benefit.

MDM is just awful. They actually sent me a cable box last year randomly and starting billing me when I had never ever signed up! Amazingly awful.

That fiasco plus learning Comcast didn't service my area forced me to discover OTA, and I'll never look back.

The first thing you need to accept is that the state of HD delivery from any service, be it cable, sat, or OTA is not perfect by any means yet. But it has been fun watching the evolution over the past few years. We've come a long way since Fox 480 "high resolution" haven't we :)

robglasser

08-26-05, 10:18 PM

... Opened box units may be returned for exchange credit only, providing they are in "as-new" condition...Exchaneg credits expire 12 months after date of issue." ...

Once you open your TV it's an open box unit and can only be exchanged for store credit. That is exactly what the salesperson told me. Basically I could only return for a full refund if I don't open it up, which made so sense to me.

quarque

08-26-05, 10:28 PM

quarque
Instinct's a good thing!
Think I found a spot.. Try N47.0107 W123.0332
It's in Capital State Forest. Have to get some maps. I really don't want to do 4wheel time, but if the roads are decent dirt, that's cool. There's a ridge to the south that can see both Portland, a little over a 100 miles, and Seattle, about 50+ miles. Can't quite see Orcas, but I can test that from the Kapowsin/Ohop site, where it's 123 miles. Anything along that line should work. The one you suggested has a peak in the way down near St Helens for Portland.
When I get the roads sorted, we'll make some plans.
Didn't really see any other peaks that have a clean shot at Portland, with out going over 2000ft.
Dan
Dan - I see no roads near that location but 2 miles SW of there is Capitol Peak with a road on the south face at 2000+ feet. A profile plot from there to the Portland towers looks pretty sweet. That peak looks like a good candidate to me. But it will take a bit of driving to get at any of those places - they-re buried way off the beaten path. I'd hate to drive all that way only to find nothing but trees in the way!

Budget_HT

08-27-05, 01:39 AM

dan and quarque:

When I get to work on Monday I will ask some tech's who travel to mountain top radio and radar sites if they know of any candidate sites with access roads that are passable. I don't know why I didn't think to ask them before this, except that I tend to have a one-track mind at work, and this is not the track I am working on.

swwg

08-27-05, 02:23 AM

How do you combine the antennas?

I don't use a combiner. I just use a manual switch with 3 inputs and 1 output. A switch is simpler.

DanKurts

08-27-05, 02:31 AM

Dan - I see no roads near that location but 2 miles SW of there is Capitol Peak with a road on the south face at 2000+ feet. A profile plot from there to the Portland towers looks pretty sweet. That peak looks like a good candidate to me. But it will take a bit of driving to get at any of those places - they-re buried way off the beaten path. I'd hate to drive all that way only to find nothing but trees in the way!

quarque
I saw that peak, but the maps I have just show a small road. Dirt roads are obviously not all the same, so thought maybe some Metskers maps and phone call to the local park ranger might sort it out better. Figured if I have to drive miles on one, I would keep it to a minimum, and the other peak, while not as high at maybe 1400ft, would still get it all.
Let you know what I find.

Budget_HT
That would be great to know which ones were easier to get to.
Thanks
Dan

Mervman

08-27-05, 09:26 PM

I was wondering if anyone knew of business that carries the CM 4248 or the CM3023 locally in the south sound. I've looked at them online, but it seems the shipping costs are greater than the cost of the antenna.

quarque

08-27-05, 10:21 PM

quarque

08-27-05, 10:25 PM

quarque
I saw that peak, but the maps I have just show a small road. Dirt roads are obviously not all the same, so thought maybe some Metskers maps and phone call to the local park ranger might sort it out better. Figured if I have to drive miles on one, I would keep it to a minimum, and the other peak, while not as high at maybe 1400ft, would still get it all.
Let you know what I find.

Check out the ridge 1 mile west of Delphi. There are a couple of roads going up the SE face and access to Portland is good. The top of the ridge is 1500-1600 feet. Much less driving on dirt roads than the others.

DanKurts

08-28-05, 02:43 AM

Check out the ridge 1 mile west of Delphi. There are a couple of roads going up the SE face and access to Portland is good. The top of the ridge is 1500-1600 feet. Much less driving on dirt roads than the others.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking about the first time, but wanted to check out actual condition with ranger.
Here's a map I found
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/dataandmaps/maps/images/cap_forest_map.gif
Dan

quarque

08-28-05, 03:18 PM

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking about the first time, but wanted to check out actual condition with ranger.
Here's a map I found
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/dataandmaps/maps/images/cap_forest_map.gif
Dan
That's a nice map but it only shows about half the roads. See my attached screen shot from TopoUSA 2005.

Don Wilkinson

08-29-05, 12:23 AM

I mentioned a while back that I work for one of the cable companies.

We are also experiencing problems with KOMO on our HD feed and our digital simulcast (beta testing channels 2-29)

Our managment is fully aware of the problem and did not give any info (if any) received from KOMO.

I hope this info helps. I'd really hate to see anyone going crazy and spending many hours "on the roof" moving the antenna around.

What kind of problems are you having receiving KOMO-DT? What are you using for an antenna and where is it located?

Most reception problems are directly related to multipath interference that can sometimes be resolved with the right antenna and location.

If you would prefer, email me at donw@komotv.com. I will try to get you some assistance.

Don

DanKurts

08-29-05, 01:32 AM

That's a nice map but it only shows about half the roads. See my attached screen shot from TopoUSA 2005.

quarque
Thanks.
I have the same program. That's where I found the peaks. I just was trying to find something with some decent detail. As usual, the good maps they want you to buy.
Metsker maps usually has the super detailed ones, in a wide variety of styles. I'm sure they'll have what we need. Hate going there, always end up buying way more than I need! Very cool place.
Dan

RPNYC

08-29-05, 01:43 AM

Hi,

I would like to reach out to folks living in Issaquah to ask what type of antenna, preamp/amp, mounting location, mounting height, etc. are working for you. I know success or failure is highly site-specific, but I'd like to learn quickly if people in the area are having success with OTA HD.

I'm soon to be moving to Issaquah to a neighborhod called Talus. My address is not in any mapping software I've seen so far. The closest mapped street appears to be Shangri la way NW (98027 zip). I have a big hill packed with tall trees about 200 yards west. I definitely can't see anything past those trees. It seems as though I'm kind of in a bowl and that I may have some trouble. I've tried a very poorly conducted experiment with 4228 in a storage room/attic (do not want to look at roof mounting due to HOA limitations and appearance) just to try to get an idea of the level of trouble I should expect. I can pickup digital signals in the 60's for KWPX, KHCV, and KWOG at frequencies 32, 44, and 50 respectively but that's it. Nothing else comes in at all.

Atennaweb says I"ll basically get nothing digital, though I believe it did list channel 7.1 as a possibility. Even the analog stations are all blue and violet. I'm only 14-16 miles from most towers.

Any feedback on whether or not I'll be in a quasi dead zone or what might work would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

tg3

08-29-05, 06:19 PM

I've tried a very poorly conducted experiment with 4228 in a storage room/attic (do not want to look at roof mounting due to HOA limitations and appearance) just to try to get an idea of the level of trouble I should expect.

An FCC regulation allows you to put up an antenna for satellite or TV, even if your HOA regulations say otherwise.

See the link below for more details and the restrictions.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html

quarque

08-29-05, 09:54 PM

stevelee

08-29-05, 11:22 PM

As near as I can tell you are somewhere near SE 45th and 188th SE, between the lake and I-90. If that is the general area, it does not look too good. The elevation there is around 100 feet and 1.5 miles west is a 400-foot ridge. This would pretty well block most all DT from Seattle and Bremerton. And then there are the trees! I would look into cable or dish for your HD.

I think Talus is actually off of Renton-Issaquah Rd. SE (SR 900) between SE 75th and SE 82nd... it's on the West side of Renton-Issaquah Rd. SE..., south of I-90 and the lake...

RPNYC

08-29-05, 11:45 PM

DanKurts

08-30-05, 03:33 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not concerned about the HOA as much as I would not like our place to look out of place amongst the neighbors with a big antenna on the roof. Stevelee is correct, Talus is located west of Renton-Issaquah Road (hwy 900). If you're looking it up in any programs I can roughly find it on terraserver.microsoft.com near the address of NW Talus Drive and Shangri la Way NW.

I'm definitely going to do a satellite (already have multiple directivo's from previous home), but I was hoping to get local channels OTA. I'll likely ask an installer to try a couple of antennas before I give up, but I suspect the area will be a real problem for OTA.

RPNYC
You're out of luck. Although you're up pretty high in elevation, around 800ft, there's a 1300ft hilltop to the NW, and the tower heights are only 1000ft. And then we have lots of tall trees. I did one survey at Shangri la and Timber Creek Dr, hopeless. You'll get the ones from Tiger Mt to the east, but nothing else, as you found out.
Sorry, cable time.
Dan

RPNYC

08-30-05, 03:50 AM

Thanks Dan. That's about what I thought. It looks like I'll have to stick with what's offered by DirecTV.

civic5zigen

08-30-05, 04:00 PM

I lived in SE 45th st in Issquah. Do you think I should even bother try setting up OTA? I am a noob but from reading here it seem my area is poor for OTA? what do you all recommand?

DanKurts

08-31-05, 02:35 AM

I lived in SE 45th st in Issquah. Do you think I should even bother try setting up OTA? I am a noob but from reading here it seem my area is poor for OTA? what do you all recommand?

civic5zigen
What's your cross streets or address?
Dan

civic5zigen

08-31-05, 04:50 AM

Thanks DanKurts

here's a map

BTW, I was told that I can get the FusionHDTV card which can decode QAM channels simply by scanning the Comcast Cable TV outlet. I have Comcast HSI but no cable TV service at all, would it work? Anyone have any success in doing this? Or I am better off getting a cheap OTA HD card and indoor antenna? Pretty much all I want is cheap HDTV solution even if its just local channels. I think I am paying comcast too much money already :)

Thanks so much.

Budget_HT

08-31-05, 05:04 PM

DanKurts and quarque,

Check your PMs for info on a potential site. I did not post it online here for security reasons.

quarque

08-31-05, 11:33 PM

...

... Or I am better off getting a cheap OTA HD card and indoor antenna? Pretty much all I want is cheap HDTV solution even if its just local channels. I think I am paying comcast too much money already :)

Thanks so much.

Topographically speaking, you have no hills in the way and you are on a nice plateau. Your biggest problem will be any thick stands of trees to your NW. What does it look like in that direction?

quarque

08-31-05, 11:41 PM

**** IMPORTANT REMINDER ****

DO NOT POST YOUR ADDRESS OR A MAP OF YOUR LOCATION ONLINE!
Use cross streets or PM the address to the person who needs it.

Not that we're paranoid (OK yes we are), but who knows what sort of thievery is planned by people lurking on these websites. You just never know...

DanKurts

09-01-05, 03:02 AM

Topographically speaking, you have no hills in the way and you are on a nice plateau. Your biggest problem will be any thick stands of trees to your NW. What does it look like in that direction?

civic5zigen
The tough channel might be 13. It's more to the west, there's a fair amount of trees in that direction, and the hill rises a little bit. It's always a little touchy there. The rest should be easy.
If you only have cable internet, they put a filter on your line so no regular cable signals come through. However, shop around. Some of the stores still have HD satellite receivers that are being closed out, cheap. You don't need to use the satellite portion, just turn it off in the setup. They make a good over air decoder, and if you ever decide to go satellite, it's ready.
Dan

DanKurts

09-01-05, 03:04 AM

civic5zigen

09-01-05, 03:45 PM

<removed my address>

From a other forum, some one told me that the filter which comcast will set in place can only block analog cable tv singal. He also suggested that the digital QAM will still be passing thru. Anyone know for certain?

Thanks guys

SixKindsOfWonder

09-01-05, 05:28 PM

DanKurts

09-02-05, 02:32 AM

The filter that is on your Comcast cable Blocks analog. If you attach a QAM tuner to your digital cable internet you will get some channels even if the aforementioned filter is in place.

You don't get "all the channels". Just the ones mentioned in the other Seattle thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6101396)
Post Number 5472

SixKindsOfWonder
The filter blocks signal, both analog, and digital, which still rides a carrier. The reason some come through is the filters are not all that swift. Signal is weaker, but if the tuner you're using has enough sensitivity, you might get a few channels. Consider it a bonus. If you're signal is weaker to begin with, you most likely won't get any digital ones.
And, not all areas that have internet, have the digital signals.
Where I live, I have cable internet and a digital cable box, but minimum service, and get nothing when I connect my meter or a QAM tuner.
Never hurts to try, just don't be surprised at the results.
Dan

robglasser

09-02-05, 12:08 PM

Anyone watch Prison Break on channel 13 last night? If so did you see audio issues and a few video issues during the first 30 minutes or so? It was really annoying for me, audio would just cut out for about 10 seconds every 2 - 3 minutes, both during the show and during commericals. Video was usually flawless although I did see 2 instances in which the video froze briefly and then skipped again a few seconds. Once, during the robbery at the beginning I lost audio and video was running a bit fast, kind of like an old silent film. Just trying to make sure it's not my DVR, don't think it is, nothing else I've watched/recorded has expierenced issues like this. (Except the notorious KOMO issues)

DJB64

09-02-05, 12:49 PM

DanKurts: What great help you are giving re: OTA signals! I'll add my request...225th and SE46th in Sammamish...on the plateau. My OTA is in attic...will that impact signal like trees or hill?

litzdog911

09-02-05, 05:51 PM

swwg

09-02-05, 09:21 PM

.... My OTA is in attic...will that impact signal like trees or hill?

The bottom line is whether the signal into your HDTV set is above the receiver sensitivity plus a margin to ensure good reception under varying atmospheric condition. The attic will decrease the signal but it may not matter unless there were lots of metal in the attic in front of your antenna to block signal and mess them up.

The best way is to try it out. If you get reliable reception, why put the antenna above the roof unless you really need that, or you just enjoy doing it - and that would be okay too.

DanKurts

09-03-05, 03:12 AM

DanKurts: What great help you are giving re: OTA signals! I'll add my request...225th and SE46th in Sammamish...on the plateau. My OTA is in attic...will that impact signal like trees or hill?

DJB64
You're in a good spot, terrain wise. What I can't see is how many trees are around you. If the antenna were outside, and no trees to the west, you should get everything. Being in the attic will affect the signal. How much depends on antenna, roof covering, attic construction, and more. Being in the attic can impact signal just as much as hills or trees. Again, it all varies. If you're having problems, try it outside, temporarily, and see how much it improves, or doesn't. Then you'll have a good idea of where the problem lies.
Dan

robglasser

09-03-05, 05:50 PM

It was fine on my HR10-250 DirecTV/Tivo, recorded from KCPQ-DT.

Did you record it Thursday night when they reshowed it, or when it originally ran on Monday night? I was watching/recording the Thursday night viewing.

jatman

09-05-05, 12:27 AM

DanKurts

09-05-05, 02:04 AM

I left the good ol' SIRT-451 ATSC-only tuner just staring in standby for a couple of weeks. Supposedly it scans for new digital signals when not being used for viewing to keep its memory of available channels up to date. Today I fired it up and channel surfed... What the heck!!? :confused:

The tuner had saved KATU, KOIN and KCKA (Portland, OR and Centralia, WA) in channel memory sometime during my absence and stopped on each one in turn. Naturally, I couldn't view them today. (Heck, I can't tune KCPQ worth a darn from N. Seattle so I was floored to see evidence of reception from 150 miles away.)

Have you heard of this sort of 'skip' affecting UHF channels? Anyone else experience something similar?

jatman
I haven't heard of a tuner automatically scanning for new channels, but could be.
However, I don't think that's what happened. Skip is possible, of course, but I bet somehow it updated it's memory from one of your available local stations you normally get. Satellites do this, from time to time, when they send updates. Depends on the model, and whether you have the local zip code programmed in or not. The off air local scan will then add channels, from all around Puget Sound, to the list, even though we can't get them. When you try to tune them, no one home.
I know that ch9 has a time hack that updates the clocks on some VCR's, so maybe it's included in their signal, and your tuner picks out the other info, as well.
Dan

DJB64

09-06-05, 02:54 PM

tg3

09-06-05, 09:48 PM

Also, regarding picture settings, anyone have recommendations on brightness, color, tint, etc that will help me zero in on the best picture?

I used the Avia 'Guide to Home Theater' to callibrate my HDTV Toshiba. Big improvement in image quality.

YMMV.

DJB64

09-07-05, 02:04 PM

Hey, what's up with the 1080i OTA broadcasts? Last night, according to my Panny I was receiving 1080i signal on channels 5 and 7 (I think) but they were in 4:3 aspect and not widescreen. As usual, the aspect button on my remote would not change the aspect on the digital signal. Do I have a setting wrong, or is a HD signal being transmitted in 4:3 format (that seems weird to me)?

zurgdawg

09-07-05, 03:07 PM

jatman

09-07-05, 04:56 PM

I left the good ol' SIRT-451 ATSC-only tuner just staring in standby for a couple of weeks. Supposedly it scans for new digital signals when not being used for viewing to keep its memory of available channels up to date. Today I fired it up and channel surfed... What the heck!!? :confused:

The tuner had saved KATU, KOIN and KCKA (Portland, OR and Centralia, WA) in channel memory sometime during my absence and stopped on each one in turn. Naturally, I couldn't view them today.

I double checked the Samsung manual: it does scan the OTA channels when in standby to discover 'new' channels automagically.

I have an explanation for the KCKA appearance: Seems that KBTC screws up now and again and sends the KCKA PSIP information instead of the KBTC data on the KBTC signal. (KCKA is KBTC's second PBS channel down in Centralia.) Last night I could watch 'KCKA' (all four program channels) but KBTC was nowhere to be found.

I'm still looking for a good explanation for the KATU and KOIN channels saved in memory! Doesn't make sense for any of the Seattle locals to have transmitted Portland area PSIP streams a la KBTC/KCKA.

litzdog911

09-08-05, 03:23 AM

...

My question is: Channel 9.5 is labeled HD, where 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 just say DT. Are there other channels (e.g. 4.5 or 5.5 etc) that I am not getting that are "HD-specific" like 9.5 appears to be? Or, do I simply tune in to, say 7.1 to get whatever signal, HD or SD, that is being broadcast at the moment?

...

For all of our locals, except KCTS-DT, the ".1" channel is the HDTV channel. They pretty much broacast in HiDef all of the time, although except for prime time shows and some local news, most of the content is upconverted from the regular 4:3 standard definition broadcast.

The exception is Channel 9, which only broadcasts HDTV at certain hours on 9.5. When 9.5 is not on the air, they have two additional standard definition subchannels, 9.2 and 9.3, for kids/educational programs. 9.1 is always the equivalent of the regular analog Channel 9 broadcast.

You've probably discovered that a few of our locals also broadcast additional programs on subchannels. For example, 5.2 is local weather and 7.2 is airport traffic video.

DanKurts

09-08-05, 03:25 AM

Hi everyone!

I just moved into a condo building downtown - The Vine Building on the corner of Western & Vine in Belltown. I live on the 4th floor of the building and have a window facing East. There are other buildings around, some shorter, some taller.

I have the HDTV Box, TV and all the gear and now it looks like I need to grab an indoor antenna and signal booster. Could any offer some suggestions, comments etc.?

Thank you!

zurgdawg
Use a small indoor antenna, like the silver sensor or small bow tie from rat shack. NO AMPLIFIER! If you can, get it near the window. If you have a balcony that can see north, you might have a shot at at QA hill. Where you place it and aiming will be pretty sensitive.
Dan

DanKurts

09-08-05, 03:42 AM

I double checked the Samsung manual: it does scan the OTA channels when in standby to discover 'new' channels automagically.

I have an explanation for the KCKA appearance: Seems that KBTC screws up now and again and sends the KCKA PSIP information instead of the KBTC data on the KBTC signal. (KCKA is KBTC's second PBS channel down in Centralia.) Last night I could watch 'KCKA' (all four program channels) but KBTC was nowhere to be found.

I'm still looking for a good explanation for the KATU and KOIN channels saved in memory! Doesn't make sense for any of the Seattle locals to have transmitted Portland area PSIP streams a la KBTC/KCKA.

jatman
Well, about the only thing left is atmospheric skip. Definitely can be done. In my military days, our comm site in Japan used to bounce signals off the troposphere all around the world, Greenland, Germany. Problem is TV transmitters don't send the signal upwards, intentionally, but when conditions are right.... Obviously, counting on it all the time is something else.
Be interesting if anyone else with the 451 receiver runs into similar results.
Dan

DanKurts

09-08-05, 04:38 AM

Well, I setup my new 50" Panny over the weekend. On the Plateau in Sammamish, I get great reception with my 10 year old Radio Shack antennae in the attic. No special HD antennae (if there is such a thing) just a plan old VHF/UHF antennae...tho it is one of the bigger ones. In addition to the normal 4,5,7,9,11,16, and 22, I get DT versions (4.1, 5.1, 5.2 (weather), 7.1, and a couple versions of channel 9 (9.1, 9.2, and 9.5 I think). Reception is all 80% plus so I am happy.

My question is: Channel 9.5 is labeled HD, where 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 just say DT. Are there other channels (e.g. 4.5 or 5.5 etc) that I am not getting that are "HD-specific" like 9.5 appears to be? Or, do I simply tune in to, say 7.1 to get whatever signal, HD or SD, that is being broadcast at the moment?

Also, regarding picture settings, anyone have recommendations on brightness, color, tint, etc that will help me zero in on the best picture? What about the Noise Reduction options, should I leave them off since I have good OTA signals?

Thanks, everybody, for all your help over the past couple weeks!

DJB64
The AVIA DVD is a great setup tool. While you have it looking at a still image (preferably a face), play with the settings to see how they interact. Then watch the local newscast at 5PM. When they're in the studio, that picture's going to be about as good as it gets. Again, play with the settings to see what they do. Then when you watch an old movie, or show that's looks off, you'll know which adjustments to make. Setting the TV to a ref disc is fine. But because shows vary so much, you can't really leave it one position. Sadly, most people never touch the adjustments.
I'm old school, but have the techs eye, from replacing picture tubes eons ago and setting initial adjuments. In those days, there was only the basics on the remote, ON/OFF and 3 steps of volume. Sometimes channel change. It used to drive me nuts watching pictures that needed adjustments. Having to keep getting up and going over to tweak color or tint got old, fast. Now, we can not only adjust the basics, but even the greyscale, and a host of other things. Don't be afraid to use them. Take a little time to get used to them and read the manual for explanations of what they all do. Not all sets are the same, or have the same range of adjustments, so explore their limits.

There are two things that the manuals don't really explain that I can offer some clarification and suggestions on.
First the Temperature adjustments. Some sets call them Cool, Med, Warm, NTSC, etc. To fully understand how they affect color, turn the color all the way down to off. Now that you have a "black and white" picture, try the different settings. Cool will add more blue, warm more green. Most sets come out of the box set cool, or bluish. This tends to make whites look whiter, and the overall brightness look better. It also makes grass look more blue, and red look more purple. I suggest trying the warm or NTSC setting for a while. See if colors look better, more natural. When you turn the color back up, and play with these settings, notice the reds and greens and how they're affected.
Second, if your set has a Picture adjustment, and no Contrast adjustment, then you need to understand how it really works. Picture is actually Contrast, Color and Brightness working all at the same time. It's original purpose was to allow the raising or lowering of all three together, so they would all stay in balance. Of course, they never work in a linear fashion, because displays themselves aren't linear. So, how to adjust. If your image looks too dark, like you have too much contrast, then turn the Picture back a few notches, and the Brightness up a few. Then readjust color if needed. If the image looks pale and washed out, up with Picture, down with Brightness,, and maybe Color. Obviously, you don't want to crank them up too high, as the images will start to distort. The AVIA disc will show you that, when you go through the setups. After a while, you'll be able to tell when you can make an improvement, and when the actual content is just lousy, and there's not going to be much you can do.
Last, you'll find that when watching HD, the colors will tend to be more intense, and sometimes the contrast, so save one setting for HD and another for regular defintion content. That way you won't have to do so much tweaking.
Enjoy!
Dan

zurgdawg

09-08-05, 05:57 PM

Use a small indoor antenna, like the silver sensor or small bow tie from rat shack. NO AMPLIFIER!

Thanks for the reply Dan! Just out of curiosity, why do you say not to use an amplifier?

Thanks!

drewba

09-08-05, 11:28 PM

I was watching football for a while on KOMO tonight and got a period of picture freezing on and off for 30-60 seconds during the middle of the 2nd quarter. I know that KOMO had this issue in the past, but I thought it was behind them. Was anyone else seeing this?

stevelee

09-08-05, 11:32 PM

DanKurts

09-09-05, 12:41 AM

Thanks for the reply Dan! Just out of curiosity, why do you say not to use an amplifier?

Thanks!

zurgdawg
You're within spitting distance of almost everything except ch13, which, by the way, comes from the west, so it most likely will not come in. Signals are Vvery strong and bouncing around you like mad. Stick your head out the window when an ambulance siren wails, and try to pick out what direction he's coming from. With all those buildings around you, the echo is everywhere. Same thing with reception. If you use an amplifier, ALL those bounced signals, and ALL the RF noise from downtown, will increase, along with the signal. The result will make it very hard for the tuner to pick out the real signal. A small antenna there will actually produce quite a bit of signal already, so you don't need to worry about it being weak. It won't be so much that you'll overload the receiver, though. If it's going to work, the less noise, the better.
Dan

edtvnovice

09-10-05, 05:05 PM

DanKurts

09-10-05, 10:16 PM

Hi. I have been reading this thread trying to figure out what I need. I just purchased an EDTV from Samsung. I live in ballard and face south on the third floor of a building, so I can see all of the towers. I have a cheap little antenna and it works great for almost all the channels. The only problem is I cannot get 4.2 or any of the King digital channels (I do get Kong though?) How do I find the signal or do I need a different antenna?? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. This probably belongs in a different forum, but I might as well ask, if I have a Replay TV hooked up to standard comcast cable, will my signal improve at all by hooking the replay using composite video or is standard connection using a cable cord just as good since it is not HD?

Thanks in advance --

edtvnovice
Always use a video/audio connection, if possible. When you use the antenna cable connection (setting the TV on ch3 to view it), the signal is converted from video to an RF ch3, then the TV tunes the ch3 back into video for viewing. Each conversion process deteriorates the signal somewhat. Using video inputs bypasses the process. Composite video is better (yellow jack), S-Video better yet, component video better again, and usually, digital video the best.
As far as reception goes, 4.2 is a sub channel of 4. They don't always have something there to view. If you get 4.1, you're getting all the signal. Ch5 problem could be related to where the antenna is placed and/or the type it is. If posssible, you need to be able to see the towers. Assuming this is an indoor antenna, move it nearer to the window. There's also a small chance you have too much signal. Run over to RatShack on Market and pickup an adjustable attenuator (you can return it if not needed). Set it for max and then see if the other channels you normally get are still there. If yes, then signal is strong. See how ch5 comes in. If it's still not there, then try adjusting the attenuator. If still not there, then you will need to try a different location. If all fails, then let us know what flavor of antenna you have. How does ch9, 11, 22 come in?
Dan

johnnysparks

09-11-05, 01:33 PM

Hello,

Has anyone else notice that the Miami and Denver game looks soft on kiro? The Seahawks on fox is not the best either.
js

DrCrawn

09-11-05, 02:26 PM

I noticed the KOMO drop outs too, but not bad considering MNF last season...

DD5.1 is still down on Kiro-DT...

The Fox game is really awful looking...

The CBS game looks sharp, but suffers from considerable aliasing during motion.

I hate all the icons everywhere.

ABC has by far the best NFL HD IMO with their refined 720p look.

Tailwalk

09-11-05, 03:46 PM

quarque

09-11-05, 11:29 PM

Hello,

Has anyone else notice that the Miami and Denver game looks soft on kiro? The Seahawks on fox is not the best either.
js

My set is 1080 native so CBS games generally look the best. Miami/Denver did not look too bad to me. Seahawks game looked worse, as though they were compressing the data stream too much. The resolution was poor and too contrasty like it went through some "sharpening" filter in a digital camera. It ends up not looking realistic at all, just very clean digital. I would say it is a tossup between ABC MNF and CBS on my set. CBS seems to have more detail. The CBS HD college games last year were generally VERY good.

I am now spoiled however, having just returned from vacation where we saw the IMAX Coral Reef movie - talk about WOW factor (both visually and aurally). I wanted to see it again and again. I now want a 10-foot quad-def screen in my living room. Of course there won't be any quad-def material for many years even if they do agree on all the format BS. Imagine HD times 4 on a big screen. We can dream about it I guess...

Baldone01

09-11-05, 11:36 PM

Per the schedule from HDSportsGuide.com, the game was NOT broadcast in HD. It sure didn't look like HD when compared to the other Fox games.

I'm talking about the Seahawk game

DanKurts

09-12-05, 12:00 AM

:) Hi everyone,

I've enjoyed reading as many posts as possible on HDTV OTA setup on this forum.

I really need help determining the best antenna type for my area. I live in Lynnwood, WA 98036 near the intersection of 204th Str. SW and 21st Pl. W.

I've already checked the CEA website and apparently most if not all the stations I'm interested in are UHF channels. The tricky part for my area is that the antenna type indicated for my location is RED. I only live 13 miles from most of the transmitters but apparently there are some hills in between and other types of interferences (trees etc) and maybe the transmitters aren't very strong? My elevation is about 340-360 feet.....but it looks like there is a hilly area in between over 400 feet elevation.

Based on CEA recommendations I need a large Yagi type UHF unidirectional antenna.....but I wonder if a large multidirectional UHF antenna (like a DB4) might work and give me more stations without having to rotate the antenna. The majority of the stations are within 10 degrees of eachother from my location.

I guess with antenna choices it's almost like trial and error to figure out what will work........but I'm hoping someone else that lives in my area might already know what works best.

Thanks for any suggestions
David

David
You're in a pretty good spot. You should be able to clear the only thing that might give you a problem, the hill about 1.5 miles SW, where 228th SW and Brier Road cross. There's a fair amount of trees there. I would only give it maybe a 10% chance they'll give you a problem, and only on ch's 4-5-7-16, the rest should be okay. Of course, any trees near you to the SW might be a problem, so just work around them for location.
A 4221 would probably work fine. All the channels are well within it's range, direction wise, so aiming is not going to be real critical. Try it first without a preamp.
Dan

Tailwalk

09-12-05, 01:21 AM

quarque

09-12-05, 02:05 AM

Per the schedule from HDSportsGuide.com, the game was NOT broadcast in HD. It sure didn't look like HD when compared to the other Fox games.

I'm talking about the Seahawk game

duh. I must have been too drunk to realize that! Seahawk games tend to make me drinky heavily so when they lose it doesn't feel so bad. :(

tuquet

09-12-05, 10:22 AM

duh. I must have been too drunk to realize that! Seahawk games tend to make me drinky heavily so when they lose it doesn't feel so bad. :(At least they had it in 16:9, but definitely 480p. I think they saved the equipment for the second game which I didn't watch to verify, busy watching the US Open. Great 3 sets, similar to Seahawks decent first half.

zurgdawg

09-12-05, 02:19 PM

Thank you DanKurts for the extremly informative answer, that makes total sense!

The antenna is arriving today, so looking forward to giving it a whirl. I'll post my results here sometime tomorrow. :)

DrCrawn

09-12-05, 02:40 PM

KIRO-DT is broadcasting the Roberts hearing on 7-2 instead of the airport :)

quarque

09-12-05, 07:22 PM

KIRO-DT is broadcasting the Roberts hearing on 7-2 instead of the airport :)

Q: how can you tell the difference?

A: the airport view showed something was actually happening somewhere

DrCrawn

09-13-05, 04:31 PM

very funny quarque

On a serious note, MNF was the worst mess of drop outs and freezes and sound problems I have ever seen on KOMO-DT. That is saying a lot.

When is KOMO going to get serious about this? I mean really serious? Perhaps it's time to "restructure" the engineering department, or bring in some new talent.

WiFi-Spy

09-13-05, 04:36 PM

If anyone in the seattle-Everett-Eastside needs any DVI-D cables I just picked up a whole lot of them. 10$ Each for the 6ft ones (single link) I also have some Dual Link Longer ones.

or trade for blank S-VHS tapes

Ki Choi

09-13-05, 05:18 PM

I too have been battling audio drop out on Komo 4-1 for more than a year. I have communicated with Mr. Wilkinson from Komo and Samsung (their tech service) for SIR-TS160 receiver with no avail.

My problem is I get perfet audio on all other local HDTV channels but I can irratic audio on not only AC3 digital output but analog output from the receiver as well.

Frustrated in Sammamish...

Ki

DrCrawn

09-13-05, 05:26 PM

hmm, maybe the MNF issue was a national issue, not KOMO's. Anyone comment?

Ki Choi

09-13-05, 06:58 PM

stevelee

09-13-05, 07:19 PM

REMEMBER, don't post your actual street address. Go back and edit your post and replace it with the nearest cross-streets. Otherwise you're just leaving yourselves open for targeting by thieves...

quarque

09-13-05, 09:54 PM

DrCrawn:

According to Mr. Wilkinson of KOMO DT, Komo was the first local station to acquire HDTV equipment but they are now outdated. KOMO had relatively recent equipment upgrade that didn't help me any. In addition, he mentioned of defense department fly overs of our area that were major problems for KOMO 4-1.

In a separate note, had anyone here tried combining two CM4221As pointing two different directions? If so, what combinder did you use?

I came to the reality living on 24521 SE Windsor Blvd. Sammamish WA 98074, I can not get Fox 13-1 with one antenna that works well for other channles.

Thanks,

Ki

I too had lots of freezes and dropouts on MNF. I have also noticed a general problem with KOMO recently for me. My 4221 has been on the dhimney and pointed the same way for 3+ years. KOMO always came in fine (except for the sporadic problems). Now it will not come in reliably on that antenna. I have to switch to my RS double-bowtie in the living room and fuss with it. Some thing has changed (foliage?). I suspect that most MNF issues may be outside of KOMO's control (network/satellite etc.).

Edit: I checked other forums for "MNF problems" and apparently it was a wide-spread problem - so not KOMO, this time. ABC was supposed to have a new system in place by now. Either it isn't in place or it isn't working any better.

Regarding your question about combining: seems doubtful this would help. From your location all the major networks are within a 10 degree spread. ANY single antenna can cover that. Your problem is more likely a blockage or reflection for certain stations. Have you tried EVERY possible location for your present antenna? You may want to get something more directional to weed out the reflections if you have already exhausted the location issue.

DanKurts

09-14-05, 02:08 AM

Dan,

Thanks alot for your suggestions and info.......I'll probably go antenna hunting tomorrow. As for the trees, I'm also concerned about a row of trees just south of my house, I'm guessing they're about 200-300yards away. There are spaces in between them and they seem to be all by themselves in a line......hopefully not too much interference.

In my research on antennas, some sources mentioned that a multidirectional antenna like a DB4 or the CM3021/4221 could be problematic if there are interferences or multipath.....what do you think?

Also when I went to Lowe's today they had a combination UHF/VHF antenna CM 3020, do you think that's a good option?

Thanks for your help
David

David
I agree, a Multidirectional antenna might give you problems, like the DB4, but the 4221 is really more one direction, but with a wide reception angle, and far more gain. Since you have nothing in the way once you get 1/4 mile away or less, I don't think the multipath is going to be a problem. If you were buried in the trees, then a yagi might be better, like the 4248. You could try a Ratshack 15-2160. Small, but because of your location, might still work. If not, you can take it back.
If I were there, the first antenna tested would be the 4221.
The combo antenna is a waste. The VHF portion will be unused, and make it harder to get creative as to where you mount it. The 15-2160 is basically the front end of the 3020, but with an end mount. That means you can mount it on the side of the house, as long as it can see in the direction required, giving you many more choices for the ideal spot. The 4221 can also be mounted on the side of a house.
Call if you have questions 206-794-3993.
Dan

jatman

09-14-05, 04:46 PM

robglasser

09-14-05, 06:15 PM

quarque

09-14-05, 10:08 PM

quarque

09-14-05, 10:24 PM

David
I agree, a Multidirectional antenna might give you problems, like the DB4, but the 4221 is really more one direction, but with a wide reception angle, and far more gain.

Dan - I'm a little confused by your statement. The DB4 and 4221 are both vertical 4-bay bowtie stacks with a rear screen. How is one "Multidirectional" and the other not? Or uniderctional with a wide reception angle... The gain figures are very similar. Most people consider these two to be interchangeable. ????????????????????????

DanKurts

09-15-05, 12:13 AM

Dan - I'm a little confused by your statement. The DB4 and 4221 are both vertical 4-bay bowtie stacks with a rear screen. How is one "Multidirectional" and the other not? Or uniderctional with a wide reception angle... The gain figures are very similar. Most people consider these two to be interchangeable. ????????????????????????

quarque
You're right!
That's what I get for answering a question before waking up. I was thinking about the little double bow tie one without the rear screen.
I've only used a few of the DB4's, but they seemed to work the same as the 4221. Never tried one in a tough location. I do prefer the double clamp mount setup of the 4221, though, more stable.
Thanks
Dan

mikeg_ms

09-15-05, 12:29 AM

Are people having freezes and drops with LOST tonight? This doesn't bode well for the premiere...

DanKurts

09-15-05, 12:51 AM

Here's the low down.... I'm shooting through trees (unavoidable from anywhere on my property near 3rd NW and NW 136, Seattle) with a Winegard 9065 at an azimuth bisecting direct shots to First Hill and KCPQ. I get solid reception for all except KCTS (slight pixellation every few minutes, worse when the wind blows) and KCPQ (basically unwatchable due to frequency/duration of complete drop outs). Signal strength display changes rapidly all over the map on KCPQ. Oddly, KBTC is absolutely perfect all the time.

And a theory... While musing over this, I came to wonder whether a very large bow-tie array (DB8 style) might not perform better than the compact yagi in my situation because of its inherent physical receive diversity. All those independent bow-ties, spread out over an area several wavelengths in dimension, being summed together should not produce such deep temporal nulls from the foliage 'flutter'. Perhaps the receiver AGC could then keep up?

Can someone politely explain why this idea might be total BS? Has anyone in a similar situation tried the same experiment? Am I just screwed w.r.t OTA HD reception?

(It figures: The only shows I watch religiously are 'House' and 'Nova'. And what stations can't I receive....?)

jatman
The yagi you are using might work for that location, if it weren't for the trees. The reception angles are a bit wide for it when signals get chopped up and weak going through them.
I can understand the theory of one bow tie on an eight tie setup, like the DB8/4228 style, helping with signal problems. In the real world, under fire, it just doesn't work that way. As robglasser noted, they are narrower in reception. Whether it would work for you there, only a test would answer that. I have found that the 4221 to be far wider, and the difference in gain to be very little, if any. For your situation, a 4 tie stack like the DB4/4221 style would be better. I know it can handle the direction differences with ease. As to how well it would do through the trees, again, only trying one is going to answer that. It would be my first choice, though.
As far as AGC handling the small flutters, no way. RF AGC works in the tuners front end, before tuning, and covers the aggregate signal, not the tuned channel. It can't handle the small differences in frequency level that limbs or foilage would cause. The HD signal is 6mhz wide for a given channel, and small spikes or drops as little as 125khz can give you grief. IF AGC might work, but HD is handled differently than the older analog stuff, and doesn't normally have that much range. I would bet they don't even use it on some of the digital stuff. I believe there are several different ways of equalizing the signal after the tuner, and probably more that are unique to the brands. Suffice to say, AGC won't handle it.
Now once the signal goes through the decoders, that's where a lot of the magic comes in between the various algorithms used. That's what makes one brand so much better than another.

Last, as quarque mentioned, trying different locations is going to make a huge difference when fighting trees with a bow tie setup. You're not trying to get more signal so much as getting an even signal, level wise, across that whole 6mhz of each channel. You'll find aiming is not that critical, but location will be. Just 6" in ANY direction can make or break it. Sometimes lowering it to go under the tree canopy can do it, too. As I recall, the older Samsungs didn't have a strength indicator in numbers, but bars. It may be a bit harder to find that sweet spot. If your newer one has numbers (zero to 100%), then jot down readings for each location on all the channels. Pretty soon a pattern will emerge telling you which ones are fussy, and which are always good. That will help you locate the good spot. And as you sight the direction through the trees, you'll be to see how the good readings relate to the "holes" through the trees.
If you find two distinct spots, where one works for all but ch13, and the yagi will bring in 13 when aimed that way, then a ch18UHF Jointenna from Channel Master will add them together.
Dan