I am located north of Redmond (English Hill area, 172nd AVE + 138th ST). So far my experience has been pretty good using a small indoor antenna. I receive 4.1, 5.x, 7.x, 9.x, 11.1, 13.1, 22.1, 33.x, 45.1, 54.1 without problems. 16.x (KONG) is a little bit shaky, sometimes I get a lock, sometimes not. I'm still trying to find the best location to get a stable reception.

My question is basically, whether I could even improve the reception using e.g. a 4221, or do I basically receive already everything possible?

Dan:

More questions for you:

1) I searched for "Jointenna" but did not find one. Can you post a model number of a Jointenna I can get to combine one Yagi and CM4221A into one.

2) Is there a OTA receiver that will handle HD OTA as well as Comcast basic cable? I have been using Samsung SIR-TS160 (with audio problem for KOMO 4-1) but do like its feature of receiving OTA and the basic cable for Mariners game on Fox NW Ch30. I am not using DirectTV either. At the time, TS160 was only model that can combine Cable with OTA reception.

3) One more, how much signal strenght would I lose if I were to locate the CM4221 in the attic vs outdoor. I am also buried in trees where I live and have strick neighborhood covenant.

4) Lastly, how much signal loss would I face using long length (~200') run of RG6 cable around the house to the juncition box?

Thanks,

Ki

Ki Choi,

I am not Dan, but I can partly answer your questions.

1) Join-TENNA model 0585-1, specify channel 18 for KCPQ-DT - see this web site: http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/Passives.htm

2) Circuit City sells an OTA/Cable HD receiver from Samsung SIR-T451 - http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-HD-Receiver-SIR-T451-/sem/rpsm/oid/98127/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

I can't answer 3) or 4) off hand, except to encourage you to mount the antenna outside. covenants do not apply to TV antennas or satellite dishes, no matter what the homeowner's association says. FCC rules/laws override CC&Rs. That said, it is a good idea to minimize the visual impact as much as possible, such as mounting at the rear of the house instead of the front if possible.

Dave:

Thanks a bunch.

On Join-Tenna 0585-1 seems to cover channels 14-29. Although the KCPQ-DT is 18-1, isn't the actual UHF channel is much higher number?

Also the Samsung T451's spec doesn't show input for Cable. It only has Ant input.


Ki

Sorry Dave. I got confused... Ch 18-1 with Ch 13-1. I will get the 0585-1. Ki

Anyone hear KIRO-DT2 running some Letterman dialogue over the channel with the airport view? Really funny, I sat there sorta mezmerized over Letterman jokes and an airport camera...

this was yesterday during the evening...

Anyone hear KIRO-DT2 running some Letterman dialogue over the channel with the airport view? Really funny, I sat there sorta mezmerized over Letterman jokes and an airport camera...

this was yesterday during the evening...
dude, what are you smoking?
and where can I get some?
BTW, I love Letterman and now he's in HD!

Dan:

More questions for you:

1) I searched for "Jointenna" but did not find one. Can you post a model number of a Jointenna I can get to combine one Yagi and CM4221A into one.

2) Is there a OTA receiver that will handle HD OTA as well as Comcast basic cable? I have been using Samsung SIR-TS160 (with audio problem for KOMO 4-1) but do like its feature of receiving OTA and the basic cable for Mariners game on Fox NW Ch30. I am not using DirectTV either. At the time, TS160 was only model that can combine Cable with OTA reception.

3) One more, how much signal strength would I lose if I were to locate the CM4221 in the attic vs outdoor. I am also buried in trees where I live and have strick neighborhood covenant.

4) Lastly, how much signal loss would I face using long length (~200') run of RG6 cable around the house to the juncition box?

Thanks,

Ki

3) Attics CAN cut signal level by as much as half or more depending on materials and construction. You won't know if yours has a big effect without trying it.

4) RG6 loses about 4-5 dB per 100 feet at UHF so most people use a preamp at the antenna when going beyond 100 feet. That is the main purpose of preamps (not to help weak stations come in).

Dan:

More questions for you:

1) I searched for "Jointenna" but did not find one. Can you post a model number of a Jointenna I can get to combine one Yagi and CM4221A into one.

2) Is there a OTA receiver that will handle HD OTA as well as Comcast basic cable? I have been using Samsung SIR-TS160 (with audio problem for KOMO 4-1) but do like its feature of receiving OTA and the basic cable for Mariners game on Fox NW Ch30. I am not using DirectTV either. At the time, TS160 was only model that can combine Cable with OTA reception.

3) One more, how much signal strenght would I lose if I were to locate the CM4221 in the attic vs outdoor. I am also buried in trees where I live and have strick neighborhood covenant.

4) Lastly, how much signal loss would I face using long length (~200') run of RG6 cable around the house to the juncition box?

Thanks,

Ki

Ki Choi
The guys on the forum have covered everything well.
A few comments to add.
When ordering the combiner, you MUST specify ch18. They make these to order, so sometimes it may take a while to get one.
These combiners are not that swift, but are the only thing available at a reasonable cost. To make them work the best, try to aim the ch13 antenna so it gets as few other channels while still getting ch13 okay. Do this without the combiner, and ch13 antenna only connected to the receiver. Then, if possible, aim the other antenna (connected by itself to the receiver) so that all channels come in but 13. Then add the combiner. This will keep the two antennas from actually mixing some of the same signals, and making it worse. The combiner is supposed to trap out unwanted signals, but it just doesn't have much ability to do that.

You don't have to get an OTA only tuner. Some places have the HD satellite versions, at reduced prices, and they will do what you want, sometimes with more features and outputs. You can turn off the satellite portion in the options.

You will loose some signal going 200ft, but not as much you think. Cable losses are specified for the worst case, 860mhz, and the highest thing we use is ch 48 KING, at about 675mhz. Real world, you'll probably loose only 4-5db. Signals where you are are pretty strong, even with the trees, so try it first.
Dan

I am located north of Redmond (English Hill area, 172nd AVE + 138th ST). So far my experience has been pretty good using a small indoor antenna. I receive 4.1, 5.x, 7.x, 9.x, 11.1, 13.1, 22.1, 33.x, 45.1, 54.1 without problems. 16.x (KONG) is a little bit shaky, sometimes I get a lock, sometimes not. I'm still trying to find the best location to get a stable reception.

My question is basically, whether I could even improve the reception using e.g. a 4221, or do I basically receive already everything possible?

Rico66
If KONG is the only one, and you don't need it, then you're about as good as it gets for HD reception around here. KONG has been running on backup transmitter for a long time. When they first fired it up, it was very strong. They have a problem interfering with Victoria BC. Until that's sorted out, they don't put out much power. To get it solid, you'll probably need to go outside with something, a 4221, 15-2160.....
Dan

Samsung 451 will tune OTA and QAM, but there is only one input. It is a several minute process to swap input cables, scan for the available channels from the new source and start viewing. It doesn't have two sets of channel memories to help out the 0.01% of their customers who want to do this back-and-forth thing!

Keep in mind that the QAM channels that are not encrypted include mostly (only?) those channels that are available OTA also. So some encrypted HD channels like Discovery-HD require the use of a Comcast-provided STB along a subscription to a digital channels package.

Keep in mind that the QAM channels that are not encrypted include mostly (only?) those channels that are available OTA also. So some encrypted HD channels like Discovery-HD require the use of a Comcast-provided STB along a subscription to a digital channels package.

Budget_HT
You're right. For those that want to do regular analog cable and OTA, Like Ki Choi, you run into the problem of upper cable channels on the same frequencies. Mixing cable and OTA just won't work for cable channels above 30 (using a VHF/UHF combiner). That's why I mentioned using a HD satellite tuner, like the Samsung or Sony, or others, that have 3 inputs, Cable, Satellite and Air/Antenna. It allows the cable and OTA tuners to come up on the guide side by side, and when you channel up/down it selects them in order (4 cable, 4-1, 4-2, 5 cable, 5-1, 5-2, etc.) You don't need to subscribe to satellite to make the box work. Prices for them have dropped to under $200. And, if you ever decide to go with HD satellite and ditch the cable, all you need is a dish. If you like all three services, you're ready for that, too. Surprisingly, I've set up many that way. The only way for die hard couch potatoes !!
Dan

dude, what are you smoking?
and where can I get some?
BTW, I love Letterman and now he's in HD!

I'm the only one who caught this? Yes, KIRO (7-2) was playing Letterman dialogue in dd 2.0 (blah) over the 7-2 airport feed. It was pretty random, and I was not all wacked out on substances...I think.

Yes, when I can stay awake, I love watching Letterman in HD now :)

Oh and it shouldnt be too hard for you to get some in this town Quarque, lol.

Rico66
If KONG is the only one, and you don't need it, then you're about as good as it gets for HD reception around here. KONG has been running on backup transmitter for a long time. When they first fired it up, it was very strong. They have a problem interfering with Victoria BC. Until that's sorted out, they don't put out much power. To get it solid, you'll probably need to go outside with something, a 4221, 15-2160.....
Dan

Thanks Dan. Part of my question is also, whether KONG is the only one that I'm missing or whether there are other stations out there that I could potentially receive with a better antenna. I looked at antennaweb, but I didn't really find a conclusive answer there.

Thanks Dan. Part of my question is also, whether KONG is the only one that I'm missing or whether there are other stations out there that I could potentially receive with a better antenna. I looked at antennaweb, but I didn't really find a conclusive answer there.

Rico66
There are a few others, but you are getting all the major networks. The others are shopping channels and religious stations. PBS in Tacoma, KBTC 28 is on 27, but there really isn't much there. Their transmit power is weak as well.
For a fairly complete of list, this is the results of the Seattle query on the FCC website. Shows repeaters, analog, HD etc.
You can search on each one if you want for more info.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=WA&call=&arn=&city=seattle&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

There's also KVOS in Bellingham, transmits from Orcas Island. Again, not much there.
Dan

OK, so I'm happy with what I have right now and won't upgrade at the moment. Thanks again.

I too had lots of freezes and dropouts on MNF. I have also noticed a general problem with KOMO recently for me. My 4221 has been on the dhimney and pointed the same way for 3+ years. KOMO always came in fine (except for the sporadic problems). Now it will not come in reliably on that antenna. I have to switch to my RS double-bowtie in the living room and fuss with it. Some thing has changed (foliage?). I suspect that most MNF issues may be outside of KOMO's control (network/satellite etc.).

Edit: I checked other forums for "MNF problems" and apparently it was a wide-spread problem - so not KOMO, this time. ABC was supposed to have a new system in place by now. Either it isn't in place or it isn't working any better.

Regarding your question about combining: seems doubtful this would help. From your location all the major networks are within a 10 degree spread. ANY single antenna can cover that. Your problem is more likely a blockage or reflection for certain stations. Have you tried EVERY possible location for your present antenna? You may want to get something more directional to weed out the reflections if you have already exhausted the location issue.

Guys -

I had an interesting thing happen this evening. When KOMO went to the ABC network HD feed, the audio on my Samsung SIR-T160 started chopping...5 or 6 seconds normal then a second or so of nothing. Then back to 5 or 6 seconds of normal sound. I checked my HiPix HD receiver...everthing completely normal. I went back to the Samsung and changed the channel to 5-1, then back to 4-1...no more problem.

I have a request. If you find the KOMO audio dropping in and out, try changing channels, then back to allow the receiver to re-sync. I would appreciate knowing if this corrects your reception. Obviously, there is something going on that we haven't identified.

What receiver are you using? Do you have an indication of a solid signal? Your feedback will help try to resolve this issue.

Thanks,

Don

Don - a good tip. I often try this and it works at least 50% of the time. There is some inherent problem in a lot of receivers (esp. old ones) with audio sync. My T150 does this on many stations from time to time. The symptom is usually NO audio rather than chopped. Sometimes I have to try 3 or 4 stations to get it back.

I too had lots of freezes and dropouts on MNF. I have also noticed a general problem with KOMO recently for me. My 4221 has been on the dhimney and pointed the same way for 3+ years. KOMO always came in fine (except for the sporadic problems). Now it will not come in reliably on that antenna. I have to switch to my RS double-bowtie in the living room and fuss with it. Some thing has changed (foliage?). I suspect that most MNF issues may be outside of KOMO's control (network/satellite etc.).

Edit: I checked other forums for "MNF problems" and apparently it was a wide-spread problem - so not KOMO, this time. ABC was supposed to have a new system in place by now. Either it isn't in place or it isn't working any better.



I'm not going to be so quick to dismiss it being a KOMO issue. My wife told me that it was happening during Lost when she watched it this week and I saw it last night during Armageddon.

I don't think it is reception-related dropouts. The signal strength on KOMO is in the low-90s on my HDTiVo.

I'm not going to be so quick to dismiss it being a KOMO issue. My wife told me that it was happening during Lost when she watched it this week and I saw it last night during Armageddon.

I don't think it is reception-related dropouts. The signal strength on KOMO is in the low-90s on my HDTiVo.

Do you see the dropouts only during primetime HD programming, or do you also see it during local news? How long do these dropouts last? The troubling part to me is that the local programming seems to be rock-solid, with dropouts occuring only during network HD feeds.

It would be interesting to know whether the dropouts are eactly the same whether watching directly off-air or delayed by Tivo. I don't have a Tivo, but I would think that if the signal were disrupted, it would take longer for the record/playback system to recover than the receiver alone would.

I did see some picture freezes during the movie Armageddon....several quick hits in a row, then OK for some time. You never know for sure where that could happen along the satellite path. We are still trying to figure that one out.

Don

Do you see the dropouts only during primetime HD programming, or do you also see it during local news? How long do these dropouts last? The troubling part to me is that the local programming seems to be rock-solid, with dropouts occuring only during network HD feeds.

It would be interesting to know whether the dropouts are eactly the same whether watching directly off-air or delayed by Tivo. I don't have a Tivo, but I would think that if the signal were disrupted, it would take longer for the record/playback system to recover than the receiver alone would.

I did see some picture freezes during the movie Armageddon....several quick hits in a row, then OK for some time. You never know for sure where that could happen along the satellite path. We are still trying to figure that one out.

Don

I haven't seen anything lately because I haven't watched ABC Network HD feeds pretty much all summer, but that will be changing here this week and shows start to ramp back up. Anyways, when I last watched, it didn't matter if I was watching live, or recorded to my Dish Network DVR, either way the dropouts, both audio and video were there. I have never seen this during a local broadcast, i.e. local news. With my 4221 antenna I get KOMO at about 93 out of 100 on the Dish receiver's signal meter. I'll post again later this week after I watch the new episode of Lost on Wednesday, however everything I've seen and read leads me to believe it's happening before it's transmitted off the tower, since it's only network feeds, not local feeds.

Thanks

Do you see the dropouts only during primetime HD programming, or do you also see it during local news? How long do these dropouts last? The troubling part to me is that the local programming seems to be rock-solid, with dropouts occuring only during network HD feeds.

It would be interesting to know whether the dropouts are eactly the same whether watching directly off-air or delayed by Tivo. I don't have a Tivo, but I would think that if the signal were disrupted, it would take longer for the record/playback system to recover than the receiver alone would.

I did see some picture freezes during the movie Armageddon....several quick hits in a row, then OK for some time. You never know for sure where that could happen along the satellite path. We are still trying to figure that one out.

Don

I hardly ever watch the local news, so I couldn't really comment on that. I can say that I don't recall having the problem on upconverted SD that I am viewing on the HD channel.

As for duration, I'd say that the glitches continue for 30 seconds to a minute then I'll go 30 minutes or more with no issues whatsoever.

Don,

I have never seen dropouts on locally-originated KOMO-DT programs.

On my HD TiVo, I see audio/video dropouts during network programming.

In the last 3-4 days, I do recall seeing audio/video out of sync on the local evening news, and again the same evening on Jeopardy. Prior to this instance, I have not seen/heard sync problems on KOMO-DT for a couple of years. There may have been some that I missed, but for the last 17 months I have been using my HD TiVo to record programs, and I don't recall any A/V synch problems before this.

I am recording Pearl Harbor tonight. I have "dropped in" on the recording several times this evening and have not yet seen any dropouts.

How was your boating this summer?

I've had HD set up for a year or so now, using an old attic antenna, which is working pretty well. I'm on Education Hill in Redmond, and I get 4, 7, and 9 at full strength (according to MCE), and 5 at 4/6 bars (it usually comes in OK). I also sometimes get (got) 13.1, but I hadn't really checked it out in a few months. Well, I went to do some additional adjustments to my antenna to try to get the Seahawks games on 13 since I can't seem to get it to come in these days, and first I checked antennaweb, and now am confused. Antennaweb shows FOX on 18.1 in Tacoma... what about 13.1? Also, is there no closer transmitter than Tacoma? Did something change since last year WRT FOX broadcasts?

Thanks!

18.1 is the digital channel for 13.1, same exact channel. And no it comes from Tacoma as usual. One of the more difficult channels to pick up in certain parts of Seattle/Eastside.

Thanks for the quick reply. So when I'm trying to add the channel in MCE, should I be using 13.1 or 18.1, or are they exactly the same thing?

I think that KCPQ actually broadcasts from Gold Mountain, near Bremerton.

I think that KCPQ actually broadcasts from Gold Mountain, near Bremerton.

Yeah you're right, sorry.


As far as using MCE...I dunno, try the HTPC section. Usually you'd want to dial in 18.1 and then it will automatically show the analog number which is 13.

Don:

Other than ABC video feed problem, my audio problem with KOMO 4-1 is for both digital ouput of T160 as well as its analog outputs (I can see the optical output drop out as audio drops out) and for local as well as national feed. Once in a while, I would get a lock when I first tune into 4-1 but it goes back to irratic audio as I change the channel and come back to 4-1. If I experiencing the auio dropout, I was able to hit the INFO button on t160 remote control and get steady audio that eventually drifs as well.

The biggest puzzling thing is that 4-1 is the only channel I have the audio problem.

Ki

Guys -

I have a request. If you find the KOMO audio dropping in and out, try changing channels, then back to allow the receiver to re-sync. I would appreciate knowing if this corrects your reception. Obviously, there is something going on that we haven't identified.

Thanks,

Don

I've seen about 3 freezes on MNF between 6:01PM and 6:11PM over Comcast (I know it's not OTA, but it's still a problem). Both video and audio freezes.

The MNF freezes were OTA also and with my signal meter overlaid onscreen I could see it was not signal loss. Those most likely were network-related problems.

Is it just me or is the 5.1 audio on KIRO a little off? I don't seem to be getting much of a center
channel. Watching "Threshold" friday the audio seemed off as well. Anyone else experiencing this?

surround is working fine at my place. announcers in the center and all kinds of sound effects and crowd noise elsewhere. Noticed the freezes on both my HdTivo and Sony HD300. Minor issue compared to not having MNF in HD. I love it.

Thanks ABC!!!!!

Was only able to watch about 20 minutes of the game last night in HD and I noticed one brief video stutter at about 7:53 pm.

Hello neighbors!

Am having a little difficulty in receiving KOMO OTA to date. Am just getting started, though. My setup is a Mac Mini, Elgato EyeTV 500 and (today) a Silver Sensor. I'm about at the intersection of NW 65th St and 32nd Ave NW. Antenna is pointed SE, pretty much at the top of QA hill--I'm getting 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc., up to 46! But not 4.1. Suggestions? Next step, I guess, is an outdoor antenna, maybe a CM 3021. Seems a little extreme just to get ABC, but I'd like to have the chance to avoid watching "Dancing with Stars" ......Jeff

Is it just me or is the 5.1 audio on KIRO a little off? I don't seem to be getting much of a center
channel. Watching "Threshold" friday the audio seemed off as well. Anyone else experiencing this?


I brought this up before somewhere...

KIRO's "5.1" is totally f-ed up and has been for quite awhile. I'm surprised no one else seemed to notice.

I don't know what they are doing, but all I get is like a mono effect through 5 channels. Voices come out of the surround speakers for example...

It's so bad, you can't understand dialogue very well unless you crank the volume. I'm sick of their 5.1 and I hope more people comment on this so we can get them to fix it. I'd rather have 2.0 than this crap.

Hello neighbors!

Am having a little difficulty in receiving KOMO OTA to date. Am just getting started, though. My setup is a Mac Mini, Elgato EyeTV 500 and (today) a Silver Sensor. I'm about at the intersection of NW 65th St and 32nd Ave NW. Antenna is pointed SE, pretty much at the top of QA hill--I'm getting 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc., up to 46! But not 4.1. Suggestions? Next step, I guess, is an outdoor antenna, maybe a CM 3021. Seems a little extreme just to get ABC, but I'd like to have the chance to avoid watching "Dancing with Stars" ......Jeff

sterna
I have several 4221/3021's working around you. It doesn't need to be up high, just so it can see the towers to the SE and a SW shot towards Bremerton. You can even mount it on the side of the house. If you point it about due south, you should be able to get all the good stuff. You're location is not far enough south to worry about the KOMO dead spot. Also, pick up an adjustable attenuator, set for about half, give or take. If you don't need it, take it back to RadioShack.
Last, it might work by just putting the Sensor outside, assuming it's the non powered version. Won't hurt to try.
Dan

sterna
I have several 4221/3021's working around you. It doesn't need to be up high, just so it can see the towers to the SE and a SW shot towards Bremerton. You can even mount it on the side of the house. If you point it about due south, you should be able to get all the good stuff. You're location is not far enough south to worry about the KOMO dead spot. Also, pick up an adjustable attenuator, set for about half, give or take. If you don't need it, take it back to RadioShack.
Last, it might work by just putting the Sensor outside, assuming it's the non powered version. Won't hurt to try.
Dan

I'm not too far away (60th & 34th NW) and I am definately in the KOMO dead spot. I have tried multiple antennas in many different locations on my property without luck. I am also using the attenuator which works great and I get everything else that is available with over a 100 signal on my Dish 921. Bottom line, (not taking anything away from Dan), you might possibly be affected by the null as well. My only hope is KOMO switches antennas faster, or the direct TV antenna falls off the tower...Gary

Hi Gary & Dan, thanks for your comments. I did try dragging the Silver Sensor out onto the front porch, with tail of coax following along and, Success! Lost a couple of the shopping channels, but did pick up KOMO. Many artifacts, but that's surely partially a function of slow processor in the Mini. Now my decision is whether to return the SS and get something that might be a bit more robust in standing up to the November storms. I'm not completely convinced the profile of the Silver Sensor outside might not prove too tempting to some 40 knot gust...

Hi Gary & Dan, thanks for your comments. I did try dragging the Silver Sensor out onto the front porch, with tail of coax following along and, Success! Lost a couple of the shopping channels, but did pick up KOMO. Many artifacts, but that's surely partially a function of slow processor in the Mini. Now my decision is whether to return the SS and get something that might be a bit more robust in standing up to the November storms. I'm not completely convinced the profile of the Silver Sensor outside might not prove too tempting to some 40 knot gust...

Sterna, I've got an extra DB2 UHF antenna you could stop by & try and if you want it , I would let it go cheap...email me at huskyviper@msn.com if interested...Gary

Hello all, I'm new here and new to HDTV. Hopefully someone can help me with a few questions. I just set up my new Sony Grand Wega 50" LCD,
[Model KDF50WE655] , and had Directv install the HD Tivo and dish. I'm out in the Bonney Lake area and was told by the tech that I would not be able to receive local channels with an off-air antenna. He said I was too far out and didn't have a clear shot at the Needle? Question is, does anybody have any suggestions on getting some reception out here so I can get HD broadcast signals?

I have the highly lauded Channel Master 4221 and a mast for sale (two interlocking 5 foot lengths, or 10 feet total). Excellent condition. I just switched to Comcast since I couldn't get any OTA signals from my new house, so I won't be needing this antenna. $40. email me at ron.felthoven@noaa.gov

Ron

Hello all, I'm new here and new to HDTV. Hopefully someone can help me with a few questions. I just set up my new Sony Grand Wega 50" LCD,
[Model KDF50WE655] , and had Directv install the HD Tivo and dish. I'm out in the Bonney Lake area and was told by the tech that I would not be able to receive local channels with an off-air antenna. He said I was too far out and didn't have a clear shot at the Needle? Question is, does anybody have any suggestions on getting some reception out here so I can get HD broadcast signals?
Well you are not "too far out". It is only 31 miles from QA to the lake. There are many antennas that would cover that. As for "a clear shot at the Needle", that is debateable. You have no huge hills in the way, although there is a slight one to the north. A short mast on your roof would clear it. The other question is trees. How tall and how thick? That might be the limiting factor. You won't know for sure without trying. Put a good high-gain antenna on the roof and see what happens. The Channel Master 4228 or 4248 are good candidates as well as the 91XG by Antennas Direct. If the trees are not too thick the smaller 43XG should work too.

Post your nearest cross streets so I can do a more accurate profile.

I too am seeking information on this region. I'm moving up into the east Olympia, WA area, not far from Yelm, WA. I have evaluated reception using antennaweb.org and it seems that I could certainly get signal with a properly installed antenna, basically pointing north and a bit east from my location.

I have looked into other options, but they are laced with DRM, and I really need/want this routed to a computer-based setup so I can properly exercise fair use. Cable is pretty much a complete no-go, except maybe for local channels - but then why should I pay monthly for it? (And I don't know if they even have all the local channels.) And satellite would give me what I want only with hacked boxes - not a cheap process, and in a few years it goes bye-bye. So I'm looking into over the air options.

I'm thinking I will need to simply try a bunch of stuff - antennasdirect.com for example has a 90 day free return period, so I could basically try everything they have. I'm further restrained due to living in an apartment. I may post back here, or make another thread, containing all the details of the situation. But for now, I would be happy to hear from anybody else getting over the air reception in this area. It isn't exactly hot in terms of reception, from what I see on antennaweb.

I'm in Olympia, WA and looking at setting up for OTA HDTV. It's a bit tricky between weaker signals and some limitations imposed by living in an apartment. However, all the other options for HDTV are rather limiting due to DRM, and I need to be allowed the flexible use of my content otherwise HDTV is nearly worthless. (The DRM situation is another discussion, for another thread.)

Basically, it looks that most of my signals are coming from the Seattle/Tacoma area, with a few from Bellevue (which does not seem to have a unique thread.) At the bottom of the page, you can see a sloppily formatted copy of all the digital stations antennaweb.org reports as being possible to receive when I enter my address. (If you want to check for yourself, try zip 98506.)

Does anybody have any comments to share about me in regards to HDTV in Olympia, WA? I know I have a LOT of reading to do (119 pages of this thread!) but before I wear myself out reading, I figured I better at least do a sanity check - are people in Olympia able to receive any of the stations listed below? Some of them? All of them? All of them and other stations too? What antennas are being used? Pre-amps? Is the situation hopeless? Any data would be appreciated.

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* red - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 345° 34.2 14
* red - uhf KBTC-DT 28.1 PBS TACOMA WA 26° 21.9 27
* red - uhf KCPQ-DT 18.1 FOX TACOMA WA 344° 34.3 18
* blue - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 PAX BELLEVUE WA 34° 51.4 32
* blue - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA TBD 34° 51.4 42
* violet - uhf KTWB-DT 25.1 WB SEATTLE WA 14° 46.2 25
* violet - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 34° 51.4 50

blueandwhiteg3,

There is a member in the Yelm area that posts from time to time. IIRC, he has an OTA antenna way up in a tree and is struggling to get reliable reception from some of the Seattle area stations.

Your list of digital channels is missing many of the major Seattle stations, including

KOMO-DT - 4.1 (38.1 real) - ABC - Seattle
KING-DT - 5.1 (48.1 real) - NBC - Seattle
KIRO-DT - 7.1 (39.1 real) - CBS - Seattle
KCTS-DT - 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.5 (41.n real) - PBS - Seattle
KSTW-DT - 11.1 (36.1 real) - UPN - Tacoma/Seattle
KONG-DT - 16.1 (31.1 real) - IND - Everett/Seattle

If you provide some cross streets at an intersection near your new apartment, quarque will check his topo program to see where you might stand for line-of-sight reception from the Seattle transmitter sites. Do not provide the actual address, just a nearby intersection.

If you have not committed to an apartment yet, you may want to look for one high on a hill with as clear a view to the north as possible. At least try to avoid trees and hills directly in your path.

Are you by chance using EyeTV with your Mac for HD OTA reception?

I live in the Yelm area and get all of the channels most of the time except for KIRO. I sometimes lose KING and KONG and on occasion KOMO but as I said I get them most of the time. KIRO - I get in the early morning and on a lot of evenings after about 7PM. To do it though, I had to couple two 4228's ( one over the other ). I am shooting through the BPA power lines which is the cause of some of the dropouts do to multipath reflections and the HD TIVO is known to have trouble with multipath. IN the Olmpia area - stop by SKY SYSTEMS at the top of 4th just before entering Lacey and you can see what they get in the Olympia area. They have one 4228 mounted high on the rooftop and I believe that gets them all of the Seattle stations. If he is there, ask for Scott and he will be happy to show you. They have a number of HDTV's hooked up to look at.

Hello Gary--

Yes, I'd be very interested in trying that DB2 antenna. Have emailed you, but maybe got filtered out? Drop me a line at jdm@drizzle.com and thanks!

I live in the Yelm area and get all of the channels most of the time except for KIRO.
What are "all of the channels" to you? All of the channels listed? Or something else? Sorry if I'm being redundant, I just wanted to be completely clear in this department.

I take it the dual 4228s help in reducing multipath signals? (And they have a wide enough angle to pick up all the stations, I take it.) Or are you maybe running them through a duplexer or something? If it were not for the power lines, would you have a perfectly straight shot to the towers? How high up are you with the antennas?

SkySystems sounds like a great place. I'll have to check them out, thanks for informing me about them. They're not far at all from my place.

If you provide some cross streets at an intersection near your new apartment, quarque will check his topo program to see where you might stand for line-of-sight reception from the Seattle transmitter sites. Do not provide the actual address, just a nearby intersection.
A very nearby address is 3800 Ensign Road, Olympia, WA 98506. That is a very nearby apartment complex. The nearest cross street is a little further away, Lilly Road SE and Ensign Road NE.

If you have not committed to an apartment yet, you may want to look for one high on a hill with as clear a view to the north as possible. At least try to avoid trees and hills directly in your path.
Among all the apartments I visited, this is probably the best I've seen because I'm on the top story with a balcony - none of the others were top story apartments, which clearly is a problem. Whatever the case, the commitment is made, and I don't think I really want to move based solely on my HDTV reception... but you never know ;)

Are you by chance using EyeTV with your Mac for HD OTA reception?
No, I'm not. I might, I do have a Mac. But I'm not at the moment. Did you have some comments to share in that department? I'm actually a lot more interested in a PCI-based TV tuner for a Linux system - Linux is actually a lot faster than OS X because of features like XvMC allowing for the MPEG-2 motion compensation tasks to be handled by the graphics card. Oh, and x86 hardware is a fraction the price of Apple PPC hardware. and But at the moment, I have no devices to input HDTV because I first need to ensure that I can get HDTV.

Let me describe my apartment situation. I (will very soon) live in a three-story apartment building. The bottom story is partially below ground. I live on the top story. And I have a balcony, although it is south-facing, it is completely mine (nobody has access to it, except through my apartment.) Thankfully, there is nothing above my balcony, and the roof line is perhaps 10 or 12 feet higher the level of my balcony.

According to the OTARD rules ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.pdf ) it would seem I can install an antenna on the balcony without problems, provided it is safe. And it seems that provided safety is right, I'm allowed an antenna up to 12 feet above the roof line without even local permits! (12 feet above a top story roof line is pretty high!) Here's a quote from the OTARD regulations:

...antennas covered by the rule may be mounted on "masts" to reach the height
needed to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal (e.g. maintain line-of-sight
contact with the transmitter or view the satellite). Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements for safety purposes. Further, masts that extend beyond an exclusive use area may not be covered by this rule.

Sounds pretty generous - I could in theory extend the antenna as high as necessary to get "line-of-sight contact", provided I complied with safety requirements and local permits. Since there is no "top" to my balcony or anything above it, it seems that I should not have a problem. Now, that is not to say that I could reasonably setup a safe 200 foot high tower from my balcony, but the regulation seems very encouraging to me in general.

Does anybody have comments or experience with OTARD-related regulations? I'm still a little unclear on the safety requirements of an antenna that is less than 12 feet below the roof line. (Initially, it would be quite challenging to exceed that, nor would I really have a good reason to do so.) In particular, OTARD says:

The rule allows local governments, community associations and landlords to enforce restrictions that do not impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above, as well as restrictions needed for safety or historic preservation.

So clearly, my landlord could put in place restrictions, but they cannot impair my installation provided it is safe. Anybody have experience with these "restrictions"? I'm also curious about any balcony-mounted antenna antenna mast designs, as that's something I will be needing to look into shortly.

My plan for now is to collect more data on OTARD regulations and a little more data on my needs and what stations I could possibly expect to be able to receive. Then I'll approach my landlord in a friendly manner and ask to discuss antennas. They're not particularly mean, although I'm not sure if they'll be particularly helpful in terms of me getting setup with an antenna. Whatever the case, I'll open a dialog and see what they offer. If they can't offer me an arrangement that I feel has a good chance of working well, I'll bring out a copy of OTARD and then ask them about what their "requirements" are in terms of an antenna placed on my balcony. I suspect they might suddenly become a bit more helpful, as I doubt they would be excited by the idea of a 12 foot mast off my balcony! However, if they are not more helpful, or they don't mind a big ugly mast, I'll get all the relevant "restrictions" from them and go off and evaluate it. I'll probably broach the topic to my landlord on Monday, because I suspect it will end up being a long process of going back and fourth.

blueandwhiteg3,

While I do have and use Macs at home, I do not use them for recording or viewing HDTV. I use combination OTA/DirecTV receivers for HDTV.

It sounds to me like you have done your homework well. I suspect the over 12' above the structure might be approaching the possible need for lighting for aviation safety, but that would also depend on several other factors, including the elevation of the structure itself, surrounding taller or shorter structures, etc.

If quarque checks out your site with his topo program, he will know the ground elevation and whether there are issues with line-of-site toward Seattle.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

It's a pity you don't integrate your Macs and HDTV. You can watch pristine HDTV on them if you can get a signal that's not laced with DRM crap. On a good display, you get everything pixel for pixel perfect, and you can even play with all sorts of video settings, from perfect color calibration to numerous de-interlacing options. It's also easy to encode the MPEG-2 video into progressive (de-interlaced) H.264 streams (hint: Apple's encoder sucks - think x264 instead) and that will even further reduce the file size over the raw transport stream! In theory, you will be able to burn those H.264 streams onto a HD-DVD or Blu-ray disk by simply properly muxing/formatting them - no re-encoding, just a little tweaking to the file format. And you could already store them on DVDs for playback on your computer.

That's why I'm so interested in getting HDTV onto my computer. And OTA seems like it is the best option at the moment to get just that. And that's what brings me to this thread.

I should add, I do wonder a bit about how good my "line of sight" really is. I just have no way to check at the elevation which the antenna would sit, short of climbing onto the roof. (Not a popular option with the landlords I hear!) Obviously, the topo could tell me about the actual land topography, but I'm more concerned about nearby structures (other apartments) and trees (though not so much on the trees). And even if I could get up on my roof or put a camera up there or something, I suspect I couldn't see the towers 30+ miles away from me anyhow, but at least I could see the horizon or not I guess.

Unfortunately my older eMac, iMac, iBook and G3-upgraded pizza box (server only) lack the horsepower to get serious about video rendering/encoding/decoding. But I do have 2 HD-ready TVs and enough HD tuners to cover those plus a whole-house SD 480i distribution channel for HD-only content. I could potentially use a Mac as a file server for MPEG files passed back and forth over FireWire, but none of my current HD equipment supports FireWire (DirecTV never provides it, but there are some costly after-market mod's to add it).

For now, I am happy with my family-friendly HDTV setups that do not depend on nor interact with our Mac's.

blueandwhiteg3,

channels I meant by all - 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1-9.2-9.3-9.5, 11.1, 13.1, 16.1, 20.1, 22.1,28.1, 33.1 . The dual antenna's was to get enough signal strength, I don't think it effects multipath which are reflections ( multiple signals ). As to how high - you always here higher is better but it's not always true. I had 25 ft. of pole on a 10ft porch roof and tried to go another 5ft section only to have it buckle putting all that weight up. Went to Lowes and got a telescoping 30ft pole so I could get 40 ft up and the signal was worse. Took a whole day and dropped it 8 1/4 inches at a time ( that is the spacing of the bow ties ) and tested signal. Did my best at 27ft. As for the width of the signal path for all stations - that I found is very touchy. The width of the 4228 I believe is 42 inches, so it takes very little turn on the pole to change the angle of the antenna. I put masking tape on both sections where I was making my adjustment and marked them. 1/8 turn to the west and I lose 33, 1/8 to the east and I lose 13. A change the width of the pen I marked the tape width was all it took to bring in both. Why would I even fool with getting PAX --- just because it is there so damn it I got to get it even if I never watch it. What can I say ? Hope I covered your questions.

Forum junkie

Glad to hear all is still working, I know what you mean by the height thing. I had my 4228 at about 18 feet above the roof and had 5-1, 13-1, 22-1, and all the Tacoma stations plus PAX and some shopping stuff, no 7-1 or 4-1. I wanted to get 4-1 for MNF so added another 10 foot section, It was a real chore getting that 28 footer up and secured, but I got my 4-1 channel ...trouble is I lost 5-1! It will come in occasionally late at night and getting 7-1 is a real rare event. I wanted to do the double 4228 but after getting this last one up and the problems doing it, I have been putting it off. But now that you have mentioned the 30 foot telescopic mast maybe I'll get in the mood to have another crack at it. :)

I take it the dual 4228s help in reducing multipath signals? (And they have a wide enough angle to pick up all the stations, I take it.) Or are you maybe running them through a duplexer or something? If it were not for the power lines, would you have a perfectly straight shot to the towers? How high up are you with the antennas?

dual 4228's will do 2 things: increase overall gain and decrease beamwidth. The latter helps with off-axis reflections to some degree. I doubt you would need to go to that extreme.


A very nearby address is 3800 Ensign Road, Olympia, WA 98506. That is a very nearby apartment complex. The nearest cross street is a little further away, Lilly Road SE and Ensign Road NE.

I plotted your line-of-sight to Seattle towers and you have no hills in the way. You will need to get above the roof or find some way to get a clear shot to the NE. You are 46 miles away so it will take a good high-gain antenna. The favorites around here are the CM 4228 & 4248 as well as the 91XG from Antennas Direct. If you have lots of trees nearby you may have serious signal loss from them.

radtek -

The telescoping pole makes it simple as can be and quick - the fighting with a regular pole was about to do me in. If you need to make a change you just let it slide down and you only have about 12 ft to fool with as far as laying it down. Since I have a 16 ft 4X6 running up the side of my porch, that is what mine is attached to and so I have been able to lean a step ladder against it and not even lay it down for much. I never found the telescoping one in Olympia but was at the grandson's birthday party in South Hill and that was where I found it. Since then I found out our local Radio Shack has 40 footer's. Don't know what they are like. The one I got is 3 ten foot sections with guy wire rings and all.

OK, I spent a little time pulling together the relevant data on this topic. First, it's pretty clear that I have a clear shot - at least topographically - to Seattle. Thanks quarque! I also just recently moved into my apartment, and within 24 hours I realized the north/south orientation wasn't what I had thought! It's a mixed blessing. Anyhow, here's all the data I've pulled together:

First, you can check out my AntennaWeb results here, nicely formatted:
http://www.zinkconsulting.com/ota_reception/antennawebresults.html

Second, I've located an aerial image of the vicinity which includes my apartment very near the center:
http://www.zinkconsulting.com/ota_reception/vicinity.jpg
(that's the highest resolution image I could readily find - sorry)

Third, I've combined my AntennaWeb results with my location and circled my apartment in a very much enlarged aerial image:
http://www.zinkconsulting.com/ota_reception/closeup.jpg

The red circle is there to emphasize the part of the apartment building I'm in. The blue is the trajectory data generated from AntennaWeb placed visually onto the map. I've positioned the start of the directions at almost exactly my top story balcony location.

It looks like I could probably shoot right out from the apartment balcony and probably pick up a little something. But there are a few large evergreens that partially obstruct any line of sight that I might have - ugh! (You can see them on the aerial photo.)

I'm probably going to pay a visit to Sky Systems and bug them a bit and see what they have going on, and also ask my landlord about if they can do anything to help me with an antenna. But I'd welcome any input you guys might have on this particular situation...

forum junkie,

Just out of curiosity, how did you combine the dual bow ties? Did you run dual baluns into a 2 to 1 splitter and then down to a booster? i was thinking of making a I____I looking cross bar and mounting them side by side instead of stacking them. I don't know if this would be worth the effort but it is a thought running around in my head. I take it that your's are stacked?

radtek -

Right now that is what I have - two baluns - EQUAL pieces of coax to two way splitter and then to the amplifier. I did have them joined with four equal lengths of crossovers from an old UHF/VHF so that I only needed one balun. This did give me a little more signal. While trying an experiment with an old 4258 parabolic I cut those four crossovers and now they are to short. Will have to wait till I get my hands on another old VHF/UHF with long enough crossover wires. Also Warren electronics sells some antenna joiners that might be better than a two way splitter but I haven't found anyone who can say yet. They are cheap enough I just might try them anyway.

As far as side by side - I tried that to but though it gave me a wider path which made getting both 13 and 33 easier it didn't do as well pulling in 4,5 and 7 and had no effect on the signal strength of the Tocoma stations.

...
But I'd welcome any input you guys might have on this particular situation...
Here's what I would do before spending $$ on antenna hardware: go to Radio Shack and buy a 15-2160 for $25 and try it. If you get nothing then you have serious problems. If you get some or all stations but with dropouts then a bigger antenna might work. Radio Shack is generaly good about returns.

I'm not too far away (60th & 34th NW) and I am definately in the KOMO dead spot. I have tried multiple antennas in many different locations on my property without luck. I am also using the attenuator which works great and I get everything else that is available with over a 100 signal on my Dish 921. Bottom line, (not taking anything away from Dan), you might possibly be affected by the null as well. My only hope is KOMO switches antennas faster, or the direct TV antenna falls off the tower...Gary

GGG
Just thought you would like to know what's really going on at your place with ch4.
I was over there today on another job, so on my way back, stopped at the SW corner of that intersection, dragged out a 4221 and found the problem. There's plenty of signal, about 16db, but you have the perfect multipath problem. Two very strong signals, off just enough to give a "beat" pattern. Seen it before at some spots on SE Magnolia hill, where you look right at the towers. The pattern is a perfect sawtooth waveshape, like ^^^^^^ . No matter what I tried at those locations, it was impossible to null out one of the signals. The antennas I have working near you are all north of 65th, except one at 58th, but 1/2 mile east, near 24thW.
Wish there was something to recommend. I did try 8 different antennas, by themselves and in various wierd combinations. There may be something out there, but I've never seen one that could do it by it self. Two long yagis stacked side by side, moved closer or further apart might find the right spot. Worked years ago for an analog problem, but not sure if it could be done for HD, where the signal is so wide. Before you spend any money, let me know what you intend to buy and I'll let you know if it's one of the ones already tested or similar.
Dan

I didn't see a single freeze or audio drop out during MNF. Have they finally fixed the problem? Anyway the whole game was perfect. Also they’re rolling in some 16:9 HD commercials.

[

I'm probably going to pay a visit to Sky Systems and bug them a bit and see what they have going on, and also ask my landlord about if they can do anything to help me with an antenna. But I'd welcome any input you guys might have on this particular situation...[/QUOTE]

blueandwhiteg3
Some input on past experiences with customers and landlords.
Attaching anything to the building brings in an assortment of liability problems for both parties. Even if you get it in writing that it's okay, it can come back to haunt.

One renter, located on the 3rd floor, had a mast that went above the roof, maybe 5ft, and worked fine, according to the landlord. It wasn't actually attached at the roof line. The unthinkable happened, lightning. Fried the antenna, TV set, caught the carpet on fire, and he was liable for about $20k in damages. And he had the landlords permission. But the insurance company wouldn't cover it because they hadn't ok'd it. Worse, the antenna mast touched the metal trim around the flat roof, allowing the lightning to go all the way around, up the apartment buildings own antenna guy wires, then down the coax along the outside of the building, to the amplifier in the basement, blew it off the wall, across the laundry room, just missing some people in there, and through the interior wall to the storage room.
No, it wasn't one of my customers! The landlord called me in to bid the repair job.
Awesome display of mother nature!
And I've heard of other horror stories that customers have told me about. The bottom line is keep it on your balcony and you should be okay.

If it can be set on the balcony, then you're basically using "your space". Had one where we just used 3ft tripod, mounted to a 4'X4' piece of plywood, and then set some concrete blocks on it to hold it in place on the balcony. The antenna set above the railing and worked pretty good.

I did an install up the road north of the Lacey exit, and it worked fair. He was buried in the trees. It was a real surprise. Did require a preamp.

If you have questions, feel free to call 206-794-3993
Dan

DanKurts:

Hmm... interesting experience. I suppose I could start out with an antenna on my balcony. I'll have to post some photos when I have a little free time, so you can "see" what I see.

If I did something myself, it would be from my balcony. I certainly *would not* be the one installing it onto the apartment. The person who keeps up the property seems very competent. But now you're giving me second thoughts, so I'll weigh everything carefully.

I think for now the best bet is to try a good antenna with a small tripod or similar mount on my balcony only, like the other guy did. If that doesn't work out, I'll look at other options. I currently don't have an HDTV tuner or antenna, so I'll have to go on a bit of a purchasing spree to get all this up and running, hence it's probably not happening tomorrow. I wish there was a no-risk way to try this out - but any option I can think of would result in me buying and returning items that I really don't want to keep. Maybe I could find some loaner/rental equipment somewhere just to check things out? I'll have to think about it a bit. I know if I knew I was going to see good reception, it would certainly be great motivation to actually purchase the necessary equipment.

I did manage to stop by Sky Systems, but they were closed - my bad. I can't believe how long my errands took - it was past 6 pm when I finally stopped by there. I did eye up their OTA antenna setup before I took off. It wasn't as extreme as I thought - but man, there are a lot of small satellite dishes there! It was just a single 4228 looking antenna mounted up on a not terribly tall tower. I'm anxious to get into there and see what sort of reception they're getting - they're almost literally down the road from me. I couldn't tell if there was a pre-amp on there, if there was, it wasn't very visible to me.

DanKurts: please check your PM, I am sending you a message shortly...

blueandwhiteg3 -

All the dish's is because that is their business. Dish - Direct - OTA -Cell phones - tv's

I didn't see a single freeze or audio drop out during MNF. Have they finally fixed the problem? Anyway the whole game was perfect. Also they’re rolling in some 16:9 HD commercials.

ABC's new satellite distribution system is now in place and operating. Keep your fingers crossed...so far it looks very good at my home.

We have had some complaints from Comcast customers, which doesn't make sense to me...a single source feeds both Comcast and the channel 38 transmitter. It seems possible to me that something may occur during their remodulation to QAM that affects certain receivers and not others.

As time gos on, all new commercials will be produced in 16x9. It really adds some impact that the advertisers will want to take advantage of.

Don

GGG
Just thought you would like to know what's really going on at your place with ch4.
I was over there today on another job, so on my way back, stopped at the SW corner of that intersection, dragged out a 4221 and found the problem. There's plenty of signal, about 16db, but you have the perfect multipath problem. Two very strong signals, off just enough to give a "beat" pattern. Seen it before at some spots on SE Magnolia hill, where you look right at the towers. The pattern is a perfect sawtooth waveshape, like ^^^^^^ . No matter what I tried at those locations, it was impossible to null out one of the signals. The antennas I have working near you are all north of 65th, except one at 58th, but 1/2 mile east, near 24thW.
Wish there was something to recommend. I did try 8 different antennas, by themselves and in various wierd combinations. There may be something out there, but I've never seen one that could do it by it self. Two long yagis stacked side by side, moved closer or further apart might find the right spot. Worked years ago for an analog problem, but not sure if it could be done for HD, where the signal is so wide. Before you spend any money, let me know what you intend to buy and I'll let you know if it's one of the ones already tested or similar.
Dan

Wow, knowing you (the pro) can't figure this one out makes me feel better. I ended up with the Blonder Tongue 4875 (nice & small foot print for the wife-factor) and a 4783 band D that I have yet to try. Got them cheap on ebay and I was thinking to try a join-tenna to couple them together and separate KOMO. I also have a new Dish 1000 coming in which will eliminate one of my dishes and make my roof look less like an antenna farm. When I get back up on the roof to replace the dish, I might take a look at some other suggestions if you have any. Actually, I'm one block south from 60th on 59th FYI...Gary

I stopped by Sky Systems and left my card, hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with "Scott" at some point. The lady there was helpful, but not terribly knowledgeable. Still, their little setup had no problems tuning in several HDTV stations, a lot more than the three stations AntennaWeb says they should be able to tune in. Most of the stations were 60-some or 70-some in terms of signal on their TV there.

Wow, knowing you (the pro) can't figure this one out makes me feel better. I ended up with the Blonder Tongue 4875 (nice & small foot print for the wife-factor) and a 4783 band D that I have yet to try. Got them cheap on ebay and I was thinking to try a join-tenna to couple them together and separate KOMO. I also have a new Dish 1000 coming in which will eliminate one of my dishes and make my roof look less like an antenna farm. When I get back up on the roof to replace the dish, I might take a look at some other suggestions if you have any. Actually, I'm one block south from 60th on 59th FYI...Gary

GGG
The Jointenna has a very wide notch of about 5 channels above and below the tuned one, and only drops down about 7 to 10 db. That's why it can only be used around here on ch13 (ch18 UHF) and ch5 (ch48UHF). There's nothing above ch48 or below ch18 to worry about, and the next nearest channel is more than 5 channels away. If you try to trap ch4 (ch38UHF) out of the main feed, you'll drop ch11, ch7 and ch9 down as well. And when you try to combine the other antenna, you'll be adding some of the same ch's back in.
I never say never, but give it about a .0001% chance of fixing your problem.

No suggestions other than what I mentioned earlier. And trying any ideas without a meter/analyzer is going to make it tough. You must be able to see what's going on with the waveshape.

Let me know what happens.
Dan

Is anyone having major problems with KOMO HD tonight? I turned on my Sammy t150 to watch LOST at 9:00 and it kept going through a continuous reset cycle when on channel 4.1 and not on any others. I have not seen this problem in years. There must be an error in the PSIP data or something. I saw this when stations were first coming on the air in HD and the data was all mixed up. Others have reported similar problems with various receivers and *certain* channels in different markets. Oh Don... help!

Is anyone having major problems with KOMO HD tonight? I turned on my Sammy t150 to watch LOST at 9:00 and it kept going through a continuous reset cycle when on channel 4.1 and not on any others. I have not seen this problem in years. There must be an error in the PSIP data or something. I saw this when stations were first coming on the air in HD and the data was all mixed up. Others have reported similar problems with various receivers and *certain* channels in different markets. Oh Don... help!


I have been paying close attention to "Lost" OTA, and so far it has been perfect on my Samsung SIR-T160. The lip-sync was off at the beginning of the 8 pm replay, but they got it back in time before the hour was over.

If there are others having similar problems, how about a roll call of receiver amke and model. Maybe we can find a pattern.

It sure is frustrating when I can't see the problem. Probably not nearly as frustrating as it is for you, though.

Don

Good idea Don. I also noticed that the T150 has now lost (no pun) the channel mapping for 4.1 and must be tuned using 38-0. Another indicator that PSIP is screwed up. And when it is on 38 it does not respond to any keys on the remote or front panel. What we used to refer to technically as "totally wigged out, man".


Edit, 9:50 PM - hmmm, looks like either I'm on THIS raft by myself or no one else is on AVS tonight (too busy watching HD, I imagine).

I had the same problem while watching "Lost." I did not have any problems while watching the 5:00 news. I also had problems with signal loss last week, also during "Lost." I have a Samsung HC-R4355W HDTV, Over the air.

welcome to AVS allen98311. what symptoms did you have? still the same now?

(10:45) Yes, I am still having the same problem.
The TV goes between 4-1, to 38-3, and back. The TV also locks up when pressing the Chan List button. It unlocks after a time. It seems to only have problems during the network feed, not on any local commercials. All other channels don't have any problems.

I have been paying close attention to "Lost" OTA, and so far it has been perfect on my Samsung SIR-T160. The lip-sync was off at the beginning of the 8 pm replay, but they got it back in time before the hour was over.

If there are others having similar problems, how about a roll call of receiver amke and model. Maybe we can find a pattern.

It sure is frustrating when I can't see the problem. Probably not nearly as frustrating as it is for you, though.

Don

Yep, "Lost" was perfect on my HR10-250 DirecTivo with KOMO-DT OTA. Thank the station technicians .... looks like the KOMO-DT problems may be finally solved!

I too saw frequent audio and video dropouts on an SIR-T151. Pretty much what you guys are describing. I toughed it out through "Lost", but finally gave up when it continued into "Invasion". Other channels seem ok. I was expecting to find a couple of pages of gripes on the forum, but it would appear that the issue is more limited.
I recall earlier this year Samsung released a firmware update for the T151 that I never bothered to apply. I wonder if that's related.
The 11:00 news is doing the same thing.

Yep, "Lost" was perfect on my HR10-250 DirecTivo with KOMO-DT OTA. Thank the station technicians .... looks like the KOMO-DT problems may be finally solved!

Same here on my Dish DVR942 with KOMO-DT OTA. I didn't watch commercials so I can't speak for them. The only issue and it was so minor it didn't bother me at all was after one commerical break near the end they had the SD feed showing for all of about 3 seconds. But, no audio or video dropouts.

Just checked my T150 tonight and the problem is still there on 4.1. They did something recently to the data stream and us Sammy folks are screwed until they fix it. This is not a good time to be having HD problems. Summer reruns, no biggy. New fall lineup, biggy. MNF BIGGY!

Don - can you find out what they changed between Monday and Wednesday?

I went ahead and did a firmware update on my STB (which is actually an SIR-T151, corrected my previous post). It didn't seem to help, I was seeing the same thing on the local evening news tonite. The HDTV Wonder in my HTPC doesn't seem to have this problem, although I think it's having trouble with the guide data. Can't say for sure, as I just got the card and am still figuring it out.

Same issue here, Samsung SP-R4232. After two power cycles, the set drops 4.1 from my channel list. All other stations are ok, both analog and digital.

Just checked my T150 tonight and the problem is still there on 4.1. They did something recently to the data stream and us Sammy folks are screwed until they fix it. This is not a good time to be having HD problems. Summer reruns, no biggy. New fall lineup, biggy. MNF BIGGY!

Don - can you find out what they changed between Monday and Wednesday?

I am not sure that I have a real good answer for you. I can tell you that one of the THE1 HD encoders was updated by the manufacturer to the latest version and installed yesterday. When it was put on line at 8 PM last night, the lip-sync was off, so the maintenance tech switched back to the original encoder which restored the lip-sync. Since that is the encoder that has been in use for some time, there should be no difference. The original encoder in online tonight.

Is it safe to assume that the audio problem being seen here are all over-the-air as opposed to Comcast cable? What make and model receivers are having the problem?

My Samsung SIR-T160 once recently had the audio chopping out every 5-6 seconds. Alarmed, I check my HiPix receiver where the sound was perfect. I went back to the Samsung and changed channels to 5-1, then back to 4-1...perfect audio. I am still not sure what happened.

Any clues that you can offer will help to identify what is going on.

Don

I am not seeing any problem off the air here.

Same audio skipping problems here on my Sammy 151. It about drove me nuts during Lost last night. Now it's happening on Alias. No video problems today or yesterday though. Just audio.

I had assumed that it was a problem with the station, since the audio delay I am seeing now is a few seconds... I don't see how my receiver can be that out of sync.

I also ignored the Samsung firmware update and am wondering if that is related.

Aiiee!! This is killing me!

Same audio skipping problems here on my Sammy 151. It about drove me nuts during Lost last night. Now it's happening on Alias. No video problems today or yesterday though. Just audio.

I had assumed that it was a problem with the station, since the audio delay I am seeing now is a few seconds... I don't see how my receiver can be that out of sync.

I also ignored the Samsung firmware update and am wondering if that is related.

Aiiee!! This is killing me!

Let's try an experiment. Try switching channels and then back to let the receiver re-synchronize. Did that help?

Don

...
I am not seeing any problem off the air here.


OK. Looks like we will all be coming over to your house for MNF! :D

OK, I waited until commercial, changed channels, and changed back. It didn't fix the audio. In fact, it started skipping again, I hope it locks in before the show comes back on.

Once it stabilizes there seems to be an audio delay of about 1.5-2 seconds, but at least there are no dropouts.

My signal strength for this channel has always been good, I never had problems of any kind in the past.

Whoa, update. Audio in sync now. Whoa, audio gone now. It's pretty flaky. :(

Whoa, update. Audio in sync now. Whoa, audio gone now. It's pretty flaky. :(


Are theses audio problems all with Samsung receivers, or are there other brands involved?

Don

I went ahead and did a firmware update on my STB (which is actually an SIR-T151, corrected my previous post). It didn't seem to help, I was seeing the same thing on the local evening news tonite. The HDTV Wonder in my HTPC doesn't seem to have this problem, although I think it's having trouble with the guide data. Can't say for sure, as I just got the card and am still figuring it out.

If you're seeing/hearing the problem on KOMO-DT's local news broadcast, then it's a different problem. The on-going problem being discussed is unique to KOMO's network feed. KOMO's locally originated programs are not affected. It sounds like you're having reception problems, possibly antenna related.

Are theses audio problems all with Samsung receivers, or are there other brands involved?

Don

Well, it didn't used to be just Samsung receivers because my HR10-250 DirecTivo was very sensitive to the problems as well. However, something changed between last week and this week .... my recording of "Lost" this week had no problems at all.

Is anyone having major problems with KOMO HD tonight? I turned on my Sammy t150 to watch LOST at 9:00 and it kept going through a continuous reset cycle when on channel 4.1 and not on any others. I have not seen this problem in years. There must be an error in the PSIP data or something. I saw this when stations were first coming on the air in HD and the data was all mixed up. Others have reported similar problems with various receivers and *certain* channels in different markets. Oh Don... help!

I'm having the same problem with my Samsung HL-R5667W DLP set which has integrated ATSC tuner. The TV set keeps INFO screen on KOMO-DT and I am not able to get rid of it. I also see there is lip sync issue on this channel.

Another symptom is that TV rating info in the INFO box keeps blinking. This still happens now.

I had to add that I also experienced audio-video sync issue with KOMO-DT since Wed. I first noticed this with "Lost", and I was not able to fix this by using my AV receiver's audio delay feature because delay was too much.

Samsung T-351. I had a similar problem to the one that Quarque described during Lost on Wednesday and am still seeing it today. It randomly loses 4-1 completely, then finds 38-1 after a second or two and switches back to 4-1. No resets or lockups, and I haven't noticed any audio sync problems.

The signal light flickers as if it's an antenna/interference problem, but there's never any scrambled video or No Signal message, just a complete dropout then it locks back onto 38-1. All other channels are fine, but KOMO is now unwatchable.

Samsung T-351. I had a similar problem to the one that Quarque described during Lost on Wednesday and am still seeing it today. It randomly loses 4-1 completely, then finds 38-1 after a second or two and switches back to 4-1. No resets or lockups, and I haven't noticed any audio sync problems.

The signal light flickers as if it's an antenna/interference problem, but there's never any scrambled video or No Signal message, just a complete dropout then it locks back onto 38-1. All other channels are fine, but KOMO is now unwatchable.

Does this occur at all times on 4-1, or only during primetime HD programs? This is an important difference since the primetime HD programs are distributed over a separate satellite circuit. Non-HD primetime programs are up-converted from 480i to 720p before broadcast and should not be different from locally produced programs. Channel 4 News, for example, should be perfect if these problems are strictly network related.

Don

Don

I saw it on Lost (HD) on Wednesday, Primetime (non-HD?) last night, and noticed the signal light flickering again this morning around 9am when I tuned to 4 (not sure what show - TV was off). I'll keep checking - I can set up my DVR to record samples throughout the day.

If you're seeing/hearing the problem on KOMO-DT's local news broadcast, then it's a different problem. The on-going problem being discussed is unique to KOMO's network feed. KOMO's locally originated programs are not affected. It sounds like you're having reception problems, possibly antenna related.

So no one else is seeing this on local programming? I've dealt with reception issues before, but this behavior is different and it closely matches what others are describing. If it's just me I'll pipe down and take a closer look at my setup. I certainly don't want to confuse the issue, but I also wouldn't want to deprive Don of any potentially useful information.

So no one else is seeing this on local programming? I've dealt with reception issues before, but this behavior is different and it closely matches what others are describing. If it's just me I'll pipe down and take a closer look at my setup. I certainly don't want to confuse the issue, but I also wouldn't want to deprive Don of any potentially useful information.

Do you have a signal level meter on your HDTV Wonder card, and does it show changes in level when the Samsung does?

It is obvious that something about the network feed is causing heartburn to Samsung receivers. I have not heard of any other brands having the audio problems yet. Most troubling of all is that I don't see the problem on my Samsung, so I can't confirm when it is happening. (I did see choppy audio once, which I corrected by switching channels.)

Any feedback can be very useful in trying to resolve this.

Don

Do you have a signal level meter on your HDTV Wonder card, and does it show changes in level when the Samsung does?


I don't think either level meter was fluctuating at all. I'll double-check again tonite. I'm going to the ball game so I won't be home till later.

A couple of other things I did notice:
On the Samsung-
The date and time (as displayed when I press the "info" button) would toggle back and forth every few seconds from the correct time and date to sometime in late July.
Pressing the "guide" button shows "No Information" in the grid for ch 4-1. On all of my other channels the guide is fully populated.
On the HDTV Wonder-
Audio and video is fine and in synch, but it will occasionally display a pop-up graphic that shows the current channel and display format (ch 4-1, 720p). Typically it only does that when I change channels. Guide data is also absent.

Hope this helps, and thanks for your efforts.

Just checked the T150 again at 6:20 and 6:35 (network and local programming). KOMO is still completely unwatchable at all times, so it does not seem to matter what the program source is. The data stream is corrupted in the final output to the transmitter no matter what. I hope this is fixed before MNF !!!

Yesterday I tuned to 4.1 at 2100 and the station was unwatchable. I was suffering from the info page just recycling continuously. I just checked tonight at 1945 and it is doing the same thing. My tuner is a dish 811.

My typical signal strength (per the TV meter) is around 70% on 4.1 which is marginal at times, but not like this cycling problem.

Similar problems here in Snohomish w/ a Samsung t-165. Audio sync, drop outs, signal loss, finding it as 38-1, then 4-1 (nice to know i wasn't going crazy, no problems on other stations)
Maybe directional located? I seem to have found a sweet spot with the rotor tonight (or at lest the last 10 min) Only have audio blips
Is someone erecting a skyscraper on Queen Anne?


edit: nm, sweet spot aint so sweet, problems continue

I hope the KOMO-DT tech's and engineers are keeping a detailed log of any changes that occur in the HDTV data stream. We are now at a point where managing the digital TV environment is much like managing a cluster of computers, where everything possible is logged automatically, and operator interventions are logged manually.

Many a time in the past we had to reconstruct databases and/or reconfigure systems to recover from a major failure or a smaller event that was causing corruption and/or bad behaviors. Without the logs, and checkpoint/restart capabilities, the reconstructs would have been extremely difficult, if even possible at all.

I would hope that similar disciplines are evolving in the DTV broadcast stations to enable comparison of the timing of customer/viewer-reported problems with the timing of changes occuring in the digital programming path and systems.

Do you have a signal level meter on your HDTV Wonder card, and does it show changes in level when the Samsung does?

Just rechecked my signal strengths. The Samsung shows about 16 bars (out of 24), which is about where it's always been. The HDTV Wonder shows 91%. Both are steady and do not fluctuate when the dropouts occur.

Summery of problems between 11:25 and 11:35 pm

The tv keeps switching between 4-1 and 38-3.

When the TV is on CH 4-1, the tv won't go into the menu, and locks up the tv. The tv eventually turns off and turns back on. The info button works, and shows that the time switches between 3:33 am Jul 29 and 11:27 pm Fri Sep 30. When the tv resets, the channel list is cleared. This was first noticed by me while watching Lost on Wednesday at 9:00pm.

I am still getting the audio problems on the late-nite infomercial. Is it network or affiliate programming at 2 in the morning?

FWIW I do not see the program title or anything in the guide either. At least I don't get a crashed tuner! (Samsung SIR-T151)

I will try to catch an affiliate newscast on Saturday for comparison.

(Figures something would go wrong. During the hiatus the HD gods smiled on me, and even my marginal stations like 13.1 started coming in strong in time for the new season.)

I still see INFO screen appears all the time with That's so Raven this morning from KOMO-DT with my SAMSUNG DLP HLR5667W (integrated ATSC tuner). Channel number keeps cycling between 4-1 and 38-3. And TV rating information keeps blinking. No audio problem though.

Screen/audio is perfect. INFO screen is really annoying. Samsung service just told me that they cannot do anything with this while I was hoping they can give me some way to disable INFO screen.

I checked again this afternoon and my T150 still goes into a tizzy on 38-1/4.1. From what I've read over the years, different manufacturers use different schemes to deal with errors in the data stream. Some just ignore the parts that can't be decoded properly and so you still get a usable picture & sound. Others don't have firmware that is smart enough to handle all possible types of errors (like mine). Newer units do better than older units (like mine). I hope KOMO figures it out soon. MNF is creeping up fast. Can't someone put an analyzer on the data stream?

I have the HDTIVO and my KOMO started the strangest thing this week. KOMO has always been my most consistent Seattle station but this last week when I watch the signal meters I see complete dropouts that instantly come back on. Not fluctuations like when I see multipath. ( if my signal reading is say a 71 the on off will always be from completly off to 71 - no change in numbers ) One signal will drop completly off and back on like someone flipped a switch while the other remains strong with no fluctuation at all. This will happen two or three times and then will switch tuners and do the same on that one. This has never happened before in a year and a half of checking signals and only happens on KOMO, starting this week.

Haven't been here for awhile, but had to see if anyone else was having the problems I am! It appears there is a serious problem with KOMO's digital signal on my Dish 811. I appear to have a good signal, but it keeps flashing the picture for about 1/2 second followed by the info screen and no picture. Along with this I'm getting very choppy audio. I also have quite a time trying to get off the channel. I have to change during the very short time the picture is on the screen, so I can only go up or down-no time to pick a channel!
I've also tried to go to menu or guide during this, but to no avail. I've tried re-booting and scanning for channels, even tried it on my daughter's Dish 6000.... same thing.
I'm watching "Invasion" right now on the analog counterpart, and I don't like it much. Hope this get's fixed in time for Desperate Housewives"!

I have the HDTIVO and my KOMO started the strangest thing this week. KOMO has always been my most consistent Seattle station but this last week when I watch the signal meters I see complete dropouts that instantly come back on. Not fluctuations like when I see multipath. ( if my signal reading is say a 71 the on off will always be from completly off to 71 - no change in numbers ) One signal will drop completly off and back on like someone flipped a switch while the other remains strong with no fluctuation at all. This will happen two or three times and then will switch tuners and do the same on that one. This has never happened before in a year and a half of checking signals and only happens on KOMO, starting this week..

In trying to resolve some other issues, KOMO changed encoders, then discovered a lip-sync problem so they changed back. They discovered that they had to re-scan the channels to get normaal operation on 4-1.

If you are still having trouble, I suggest that you let your receiver re-scan the digital channels to make sure that the channel mapping is correct.

Please let me knowwhether this solves the problem.

Don

No change yet for me on my SPR4232. After tuning to 4-1 the video and sound come in for about three seconds, then the channel switches to 38-3 and the video and sound freeze up. The screen goes black and the TV power cycles. When it comes back up it goes through the same thing again. After the second power cycle, it tunes to 5-1 (KING 5), the next channel in sequence. Video and audio are fine on all channels I receive except for KOMO.

When I check the channel guide, 4-1 is gone, and I can't tune to it manually. I need to rescan to bring the channel back. Very strange.

Just tried 4-01 again, if anything it's worse. Still trying to get off the channel and the receiver has rebooted twice so far.....

.

In trying to resolve some other issues, KOMO changed encoders, then discovered a lip-sync problem so they changed back. They discovered that they had to re-scan the channels to get normaal operation on 4-1.

If you are still having trouble, I suggest that you let your receiver re-scan the digital channels to make sure that the channel mapping is correct.

Please let me knowwhether this solves the problem.

Don

Don
Just went to a customers house with a Dish 811. Getting an almost perfectly flat waveshape on the scope, +17db. No hicupps in pattern, either. Almost text book perfect. His screen says 90-91%, fairly steady, then picture blanks out, for a second then pops back, similar to what others are getting. Very tough to get out of it. Says 4-01 on info bar. All his other channels come in fine.
Call if you need more info 206-794-3993
Dan

I have been experiencing the same symptoms since last Wednesday just as Lost came on. I have a Samsung SIR-T165 tuner and I am located in Poulsbo, WA. Prior to this, 4-1 has been very reliable. Hope the problem gets fixed soon.

I recently moved to Seattle from Philly, settling in Queen Anne. Needless to say, from Queen Anne using an outdoor Radio Shack UHF antenna it has been pretty easy to receive:

KOMO
KING (5.1 & 5.2)
KIRO (7.1 & 7.2)
KCTS (9.1, 9.3 & 9.5)
KSTW
KONG
KTWB
KWPX

But what about Fox? I see that Fox broadcasts from outside Seattle (Bremerton is it?) and on 18.1. I can't receive this at all, but I found an old post where someone claimed to have picked up FOX as a subchannel of WB (22-2). I'm not seeing this though, is that true?

I'd really like to receive Fox as so many of our local football games are broadcasted there. However, it just hit me today that TitanTV doesn't list any of the games on Fox in HD! Is this correct? Even if I could pickup Fox OTA, would it not be in HD? I'd to have to go back to Comcast just to get Fox HD. I just can’t believe in a market like Seattle that Fox wouldn’t have a solid HD broadcast available. I hope I’m missing something!

I live in Wallingford, where someone else claimed I should be able to get Fox on digital channel 18, but I can't get it either. I get all the other stations. FOX was sharing the WB antenna on Capitol Hill until about 1 1/2 years ago. I don't think they plan on sharing again. Maybe you are on the wrong side of Queen Anne hill.

My TV is capable of HDTV QAM decoding, so I finally switched my TV to QAM from OTA, mainly to get Fox for Seahawk games. I like getting OTA better because it uses a friendly channel number lineup, ie channel 4 is channel 4, not some odd digital number, but not getting Fox in HD was making me mad.

BTW, my brother in Burien gets all the same channels I do and he also gets Fox just fine.

I suppose it is possible that Fox has not upped the power of the digital broadcast. I have heard rumors about broadcasters not cranking up the digital signal power because of lack of viewers demanding it.

I have similar problem with KOMO 4.1 OTA. Audio skips almost continuously every 1-2 seconds and, every once in a while, the picture goes black. The window in the upper left hand corner of the TV that shows channel name and number keeps flashing -- like the TV keeps losing/reacquiring the signal every second or so. I just got back from a business trip and my wife says this has been going on for a week or so...

Having gone back a few pages on this thread, I thought I would add some more detail....

I live out on Sammamish Plateau, have OTA for HD and Dish Network PVR 508 (SD)feeding my new 50" Panny flat screen. I rescanned all my channels based on earlier suggestion, but no change. My signal strength is consistent at 85 - 87%, same as always. I do note that KOMO's OTA analog signal is alot better, but there are still minor blips in the picture every ten seconds or so. Interesting that the satellite signal (non HD) is fine.

Don't know if this helps, but sure seems like this is KOMO's problem, and not a problem of anyone's TV or satellite receiver.

Off and on I have trouble with KOMO 4 OTA, and I can see the stinking TV tower on Queen Anne hill, which is only about three miles away! Sometimes it just drops out for a few frames. Other stations occasionally have this same type of problem. This is with two different OTA receivers, one built into my TV and a MyHD PCI tuner card. One time when I was having trouble with channel 5 OTA, I did a quick switch to QAM with my TV tuner and low and behold, the Comcast HDTV feed was just as messed up in exactly the same way.

I heard the HDTV digital OTA method adopted in the US is actually much more prone to these types of problems than a method adopted in Europe. Don't know the details exactly.

All this smoldering ranting aside, OTA HD is usually pretty reliable for me.

.

In trying to resolve some other issues, KOMO changed encoders, then discovered a lip-sync problem so they changed back. They discovered that they had to re-scan the channels to get normaal operation on 4-1.

If you are still having trouble, I suggest that you let your receiver re-scan the digital channels to make sure that the channel mapping is correct.

Please let me knowwhether this solves the problem.

Don

Just wanted to say also I am having this problem. Rescan did not help.

.
If you are still having trouble, I suggest that you let your receiver re-scan the digital channels to make sure that the channel mapping is correct.


Rescan didn't help me either. Tried it once this morning around 8:00 and again this evening around 6:30.

I recently moved to Seattle from Philly, settling in Queen Anne. Needless to say, from Queen Anne using an outdoor Radio Shack UHF antenna it has been pretty easy to receive:

KOMO
KING (5.1 & 5.2)
KIRO (7.1 & 7.2)
KCTS (9.1, 9.3 & 9.5)
KSTW
KONG
KTWB
KWPX

But what about Fox? I see that Fox broadcasts from outside Seattle (Bremerton is it?) and on 18.1. I can't receive this at all, but I found an old post where someone claimed to have picked up FOX as a subchannel of WB (22-2). I'm not seeing this though, is that true?

I'd really like to receive Fox as so many of our local football games are broadcasted there. However, it just hit me today that TitanTV doesn't list any of the games on Fox in HD! Is this correct? Even if I could pickup Fox OTA, would it not be in HD? I'd to have to go back to Comcast just to get Fox HD. I just can’t believe in a market like Seattle that Fox wouldn’t have a solid HD broadcast available. I hope I’m missing something!
Yes, FOX comes from Bremerton which is WSW for you. Post your nearsest cross streets and I wil check the topography. Which way is your antenna aimed?

I recently moved to Seattle from Philly, settling in Queen Anne. Needless to say, from Queen Anne using an outdoor Radio Shack UHF antenna it has been pretty easy to receive:

KOMO
KING (5.1 & 5.2)
KIRO (7.1 & 7.2)
KCTS (9.1, 9.3 & 9.5)
KSTW
KONG
KTWB
KWPX

But what about Fox? I see that Fox broadcasts from outside Seattle (Bremerton is it?) and on 18.1. I can't receive this at all, but I found an old post where someone claimed to have picked up FOX as a subchannel of WB (22-2). I'm not seeing this though, is that true?

I'd really like to receive Fox as so many of our local football games are broadcasted there. However, it just hit me today that TitanTV doesn't list any of the games on Fox in HD! Is this correct? Even if I could pickup Fox OTA, would it not be in HD? I'd to have to go back to Comcast just to get Fox HD. I just can’t believe in a market like Seattle that Fox wouldn’t have a solid HD broadcast available. I hope I’m missing something!

heist
FOX is UHF ch18, comes from Gold Mt., a few miles SW of Bremerton. Actual height of antenna is about twice that of QA towers. If you're on the north or east sides of QA hill, that's probably why. If not, it might be something in your house, or a building, tree, etc, SW of you. They transmit with 600KW, plenty of power at that frequency, and I believe it's 720p. They stopped sharing with KTWB 22 a few years ago, mainly because you can't do two channels of HD in the bandwidth allotted. They were both transmitting 480p when they shared. There was also the legal problems from the same shows on two stations, so they said they voluntarily stopped.
What's your nearest intersection?
Dan

I live in Wallingford, where someone else claimed I should be able to get Fox on digital channel 18, but I can't get it either. I get all the other stations. FOX was sharing the WB antenna on Capitol Hill until about 1 1/2 years ago. I don't think they plan on sharing again. Maybe you are on the wrong side of Queen Anne hill.

My TV is capable of HDTV QAM decoding, so I finally switched my TV to QAM from OTA, mainly to get Fox for Seahawk games. I like getting OTA better because it uses a friendly channel number lineup, ie channel 4 is channel 4, not some odd digital number, but not getting Fox in HD was making me mad.

BTW, my brother in Burien gets all the same channels I do and he also gets Fox just fine.

I suppose it is possible that Fox has not upped the power of the digital broadcast. I have heard rumors about broadcasters not cranking up the digital signal power because of lack of viewers demanding it.
Post your nearest cross streets and I will check your topography. FOX is at 600kW which is plenty of power to cover the area. They are also at 1700 feet which is higher than everyone else. So your problem is related to your specific location, antenna, direction or mounting. How high is your antenna off the ground? Indoor or outdoor?

Don -
Thanks for your quick reply - sure wish we could get someone from the other stations to be as quick and dependable as you have been for KOMO. Just got home from work and checked this forum, haven't done a rescan yet but did re-check the signal and watch a little TV. Here is what is so strange with what I'm seeing. The signal meters are showing these quick on - off dropouts but it is having no effect on my picture or sound. Right now is just americas funniest so it's not a HD feed but the picture and sound are fine. Just have never had these kind of dropouts on my signal meters before this last week, only on KOMO and somehow not effecting the picture. I only noticed because I have gotten in such a habit of checking them almost daily because of all the experimenting and adjusting I have had to do to get a signal out in Yelm.

Post your nearest cross streets and I will check your topography. FOX is at 600kW which is plenty of power to cover the area. They are also at 1700 feet which is higher than everyone else. So your problem is related to your specific location, antenna, direction or mounting. How high is your antenna off the ground? Indoor or outdoor?

I posted this a year ago, and either you or someone else looked it up and said I should be getting good reception from Fox's Bremerton tower. I'm sure you will find the same results, and my results will be the same - no reception.

I think the quick dropouts people are seeing on their meters are not actual loss of signal but rather a re-sync process in the receiver because of errors in the data stream. On older receivers like mine that can't handle any errors, it does a complete reset that takes several seconds. If it *were* actual signal dropout the picture would freeze every time.

Don -
Thanks for your quick reply - sure wish we could get someone from the other stations to be as quick and dependable as you have been for KOMO. Just got home from work and checked this forum, haven't done a rescan yet but did re-check the signal and watch a little TV. Here is what is so strange with what I'm seeing. The signal meters are showing these quick on - off dropouts but it is having no effect on my picture or sound. Right now is just americas funniest so it's not a HD feed but the picture and sound are fine. Just have never had these kind of dropouts on my signal meters before this last week, only on KOMO and somehow not effecting the picture. I only noticed because I have gotten in such a habit of checking them almost daily because of all the experimenting and adjusting I have had to do to get a signal out in Yelm.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I will make sure that KOMO's maintenance guys are aware of these issues.

By the way, my Samsung T160 still has perfect reception. Life was a lot simpler with tubes and analog signals.

Don

I posted this a year ago, and either you or someone else looked it up and said I should be getting good reception from Fox's Bremerton tower. I'm sure you will find the same results, and my results will be the same - no reception.

Mike777
I looked up your site last year, it should work. If you're still using the silver sensor indoors, that's probably why. Did you ever try a 4221 on the south or west side? I'm 99% sure that would work, since you can see the towers already.
Dan

Post your nearest cross streets and I will check your topography. FOX is at 600kW which is plenty of power to cover the area. They are also at 1700 feet which is higher than everyone else. So your problem is related to your specific location, antenna, direction or mounting. How high is your antenna off the ground? Indoor or outdoor?

Wow, I'm still getting used to how nice people are here in Seattle, in Philly I could just imagine the replies! Thanks for all the help!

I'm on the North side of Queen Anne (good hunch)! From my location, the best cross streets are 1st Ave North and Newell, so I certainly have some of the hill in the way. I've mounted a Radio Shack UHF (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160) antenna on the roof of my single story home which stands an additional 7 feet above the apex of my roofline.

As per the direction which antenna is pointing, I can't say I know the degree, but I can say it is pointing right at the left most tower (from my perspective) on QA. So it is pointing in Southern direction. Funny enough, to pickup KIRO I had to adjust one of the booms to within with seemed a microscopic adjustment... Fox though, was never in the picture.

Wow, I'm still getting used to how nice people are here in Seattle, in Philly I could just imagine the replies! Thanks for all the help!

I'm on the North side of Queen Anne (good hunch)! From my location, the best cross streets are 1st Ave North and Newell, so I certainly have some of the hill in the way. I've mounted a Radio Shack UHF (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160) antenna on the roof of my single story home which stands an additional 7 feet above the apex of my roofline.

As per the direction which antenna is pointing, I can't say I know the degree, but I can say it is pointing right at the left most tower (from my perspective) on QA. So it is pointing in Southern direction. Funny enough, to pickup KIRO I had to adjust one of the booms to within with seemed a microscopic adjustment... Fox though, was never in the picture.
Well you have no hills in the way so the problem with FOX is something else. You might have a building or trees causing a blockage or you might be getting a strong reflection off something. It will take some experimentation with antenna aiming and location. FOX is WSW from you.

Wow, I'm still getting used to how nice people are here in Seattle, in Philly I could just imagine the replies! Thanks for all the help!

I'm on the North side of Queen Anne (good hunch)! From my location, the best cross streets are 1st Ave North and Newell, so I certainly have some of the hill in the way. I've mounted a Radio Shack UHF (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160) antenna on the roof of my single story home which stands an additional 7 feet above the apex of my roofline.

As per the direction which antenna is pointing, I can't say I know the degree, but I can say it is pointing right at the left most tower (from my perspective) on QA. So it is pointing in Southern direction. Funny enough, to pickup KIRO I had to adjust one of the booms to within with seemed a microscopic adjustment... Fox though, was never in the picture.

heist
You're in my old neighborhood! Went to the elementary school near you and old high school on QA, eons ago.
You have two problems.
The hill to the SW rises pretty fast, more than it looks on the topo program. The ch13 signal comes from the SW. If you were to spin the antenna around that direction, there's a small chance it might come in, but I doubt it.
The other is the antenna you're using is too directional to pick up ch13 from the side. A 4221 would probably work fine, IF you could get ch13.

Try spinning the antenna SW, and see if ch13 comes in. If so, then try the 4221 instead. It has a very wide reception pattern.
Let us know what the results are. Call if you have questions.
Dan

I just found your thread and wondered if you guys could tell me if I could get all the stations from the pacific and judd intersection in lacey
thanxx

I just found your thread and wondered if you guys could tell me if I could get all the stations from the pacific and judd intersection in lacey
thanxx

Couldn't find the exact intersection. From Judd and Ruddell or Ruddell and Pacific, about the same. There's a hill about 4 miles to the NE that might give you some problems. I know there's a lot of trees there, too. If you can get past that, you're okay. It's a 46 mile shot, give or take. It's possible. The only way to be sure is try an antenna. A 4248 or 4228 and a 7775 preamp will most likey be the best combo.
Dan

A technician from one of the local "authorized service centers" recently told me about a fix that he uses first when encountering strange things with DTV receivers. I was specifically asking about lip-sync issues, but he said that this is the first thing that he always tries:

Pull the AC power plug.

Walk away from it for 15-30 minutes to make sure that any remaining memory is cleared.

Plug it back in and turn it on.

It will then boot back up from ground zero, rescanning the channels and getting a nice clean start.

He explained that since the receiver is like any computer, a clean boot will insure that it is not a software related issue.

This doesn't explain why the problem is only with KOMO, but until we can find what is causing it, this is something to try.

If any of you have the time and inclination, I would sure like to know if it makes a difference.

Thanks,

Don

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I will make sure that KOMO's maintenance guys are aware of these issues.

By the way, my Samsung T160 still has perfect reception. Life was a lot simpler with tubes and analog signals.

Don

Don:

As I was still having audio drop outs from KOMO 4-1 using the Samsung T160 where I have no issues from other HD stations in the area, I bought a different receiver, Samsung T165. All of the sudden I get FOX 13-1. It could have been the unintentional antenna repositioning but the new T165 also had significant audio problem from ABC HD feed during last evening.

I am getting closer to giving up on HD and going back to analog...

Ki

Don:

As I was still having audio drop outs from KOMO 4-1 using the Samsung T160 where I have no issues from other HD stations in the area, I bought a different receiver, Samsung T165. All of the sudden I get FOX 13-1. It could have been the unintentional antenna repositioning but the new T165 also had significant audio problem from ABC HD feed during last evening.

I am getting closer to giving up on HD and going back to analog...

Ki

The big KOMO problem has seemed to vanish. I'm getting a steady signal with no switching between 38-1 and 4-1.

Last night when I went to bed it was still screwed up. Nice to see something got fixed.

Confirmed working here too on my SPR-4232. Strong signal, looking real good. Thanks Don!

Confirmed working here too on my SPR-4232. Strong signal, looking real good. Thanks Don!

Good news, guys. Kelly found that the Trivini dynamic PSIP generator was flakey so it was taken off line. He then enabled the encoder's static PSIP which should restore normal reception. Static PSIP does not allow program schedule information so that will be unavailable until the generator is repaired or replaced.

Thanks for your patience. Your feedback has been invaluable.

Don

Thanks Don for taking the various complaints seriously. The 4-1 reception is great now (here in Poulsbo). It was very disconcerting for the last five days.

Looking good here too. Many thanks Don.

Good news, guys. Kelly found that the Trivini dynamic PSIP generator was flakey so it was taken off line. He then enabled the encoder's static PSIP which should restore normal reception. Static PSIP does not allow program schedule information so that will be unavailable until the generator is repaired or replaced.

Thanks for your patience. Your feedback has been invaluable.

Don
Thank you Don, Kelly and all the KOMO crew for getting us HD in time for MNF. I think I can live without the schedule data for a while!

Don - it took care of the dropouts on my HDTIVO here in Yelm to --- Thanks

Good news, guys. Kelly found that the Trivini dynamic PSIP generator was flakey so it was taken off line. He then enabled the encoder's static PSIP which should restore normal reception. Static PSIP does not allow program schedule information so that will be unavailable until the generator is repaired or replaced.

Thanks for your patience. Your feedback has been invaluable.

Don

Don
You're doing the KOMO people a real service by contributing to this forum. I had many calls this weekend from customers. Fortunately, I could redirect them here for info, and it really helped everyone. The guys upstairs owe you!

One other thing to pass on. The reason so many called me this weekend was they said they couldn't get through to the station. The phone line was always busy. You would think that would give them a clue..... !
Anyway, it would be great if you had a redirect on the VRU that said you were working on the problem. It's one of the very few things I like about Comcast. They have a kind of status by area before you even get anyone. Keeps everything Clam!

Thanks again for letting us know Wassup.
Dan

Thanks again, Don. Nice to have someone around who cares enough to get things taken care of!

Hey Don, I'm a bit farther out then forum junkie, SE of Yelm 4 corners area, but everything on 4-1 is working great on my HDTIVO too. Kudos

My Samsung DLP HL-R5667W also now works well with KOMO-DT. No Info screen anymore. Thanks!

I am glad that we finally got this one fixed.

Again, I appreciate your feedback. It is especially helpful when the KOMO crew can't see the problem on their studio monitors and it doesn't show up on any of their personal receivers. Once alerted, the Streamscope gives a pretty good picture of what's going on.

The next problem is audio levels on Comcast's channel 104. They are installing a Comcast digital drop so that they can compare the outgoing bitstream side-by-side with the QAM return on the Streamscope. This should be a very effective trouble-shooting tool.

Don

Anyone in the Mill Creek area using an antenna/receiver? I've got the Accurian receiver that Radio Shack was clearing out, combined with a Silver Sensor. All I get are the 3 KCTS channels.

Funny thing is, it says the signal strength on the HD KCTS channel is ~25! Yet it comes through looking great, no distortion or audio issues.

I knew getting Fox would be a stretch (35 miles away) but was hoping for the locals (I WANT SOME MNF!).

Can anyone near Mill Creek chime in with what they're using to get HD OTA?

4-1 is working again on my Samsung 151. :)

Quarque, looks like you're the man when it comes to a quick and dirty topography. Would you be so kind?

17509 Woodland Drive
Bothell, 98012

x-streets would be 180th and Brook Blvd

Thanks!

Quarque, looks like you're the man when it comes to a quick and dirty topography. Would you be so kind?

17509 Woodland Drive
Bothell, 98012

x-streets would be 180th and Brook Blvd

Thanks!

codeyf
Not too bad. Big hill about 2.5 miles SW, but you should be able to clear it. Looks like you're in the middle of a subdivision without too many trees, some about 3 blocks SW, but I don't think they will bother you.
I have several antennas nearby, working fine, one about 6 blocks SE of you, one about 8 blocks North. Used a 4248 on one in the trees, a 4221 for one in the clear.
Dan

codeyf
Not too bad. Big hill about 2.5 miles SW, but you should be able to clear it. Looks like you're in the middle of a subdivision without too many trees, some about 3 blocks SW, but I don't think they will bother you.
I have several antennas nearby, working fine, one about 6 blocks SE of you, one about 8 blocks North. Used a 4248 on one in the trees, a 4221 for one in the clear.
Dan

Thanks much Dan. Sent you an email!

Anyone in the Mill Creek area using an antenna/receiver? I've got the Accurian receiver that Radio Shack was clearing out, combined with a Silver Sensor. All I get are the 3 KCTS channels.

Funny thing is, it says the signal strength on the HD KCTS channel is ~25! Yet it comes through looking great, no distortion or audio issues.

I knew getting Fox would be a stretch (35 miles away) but was hoping for the locals (I WANT SOME MNF!).

Can anyone near Mill Creek chime in with what they're using to get HD OTA?

I'm up the hill a bit from Mill Creek, closer to Martha Lake and I get everything except channel 9 flawlessly with a CM4221 I picked up from solidsignal.com for about $30.00 including shipping. The only reason I don't have 9 is some trees nearby see to be affecting reception. Since I hardly ever watch channel 9 I haven't bothered with moving the antenna to see if I can get better reception elsewhere.

I know DanKurts has mentioned reception in Mill Creek itself is hit or miss because of the elevation combined with all the trees. I can tell you from everything I've seen here, in this area you'll definetly need a bigger and outdoor antenna. Other models that might work are CM4228 (can get locally at Frys, basically 2 4221's side by side), CM4248 (Big Yagi) or a Radio Shack 15-2160 (cheap, about $25.00)

I am glad that we finally got this one fixed.

Again, I appreciate your feedback. It is especially helpful when the KOMO crew can't see the problem on their studio monitors and it doesn't show up on any of their personal receivers. Once alerted, the Streamscope gives a pretty good picture of what's going on.

The next problem is audio levels on Comcast's channel 104. They are installing a Comcast digital drop so that they can compare the outgoing bitstream side-by-side with the QAM return on the Streamscope. This should be a very effective trouble-shooting tool.

Don

Don,

I have not followed the audio level problems closely her on the forum, but let me explain what I have experienced:

On KOMO-DT, I notice significant volume drops, at times, when they switch between programs and/or commercials/promos. IIRC, the volume goes very soft for locally-inserted commercials during network programming. This does not happen always, but it definitely does happen on a repeating basis. Listening, it almost sounds like a mono source with the left and right channels out of phase from one another, resulting in a null. Sometimes it only affects one commercial of two or more during the same commercial break.

I have not watched enough to discern any more pattern or consistency, but I wanted to report this in case it is somehow related to your investigation of audio issues on Comcast.

FYI, the OTA receiver I was using was an HR10-250 HD TiVo, fed optically to my DD5.1 A/V receiver.

Sorry to bug you but it looks like you have magical powers :D in being able to tell if someone can receive OTA signals from a specific location. I have checked out Antenna Web and according to them I should be able to receive several of the channels. What it doesn't seem to take into account is the trees, hills etc...and I do have some trees that look to me like they would be a problem.
Would you be able to help me out with that?
The closest cross streets are:
NE 187th St. and 35th Ave. NE
98155

Thanks! :)

Nice thread, people.

Try NE 142nd St. & 73rd Ave. NE in Bothell/Kenmore, please. I'm at the top of Finn Hill but I'm also just east of St. Edwards state park so I have a significant stand of very tall trees between me and the transmitters. But I'm on the 2nd and top story of my building.

I've gotten decent to marginal reception on most of the major networks with my unamplified Recoton rabbit ears so far.

I'm looking for recommendations of a good ISF technician in the Seattle area to calibrate my Sony KV40XBR800 CRT HDTV. I thought I recalled some local here who went by the name "ISFGuy", but I can't find any information searching here. Any good recommendations are welcome. Thanks!

Sorry to bug you but it looks like you have magical powers :D in being able to tell if someone can receive OTA signals from a specific location. I have checked out Antenna Web and according to them I should be able to receive several of the channels. What it doesn't seem to take into account is the trees, hills etc...and I do have some trees that look to me like they would be a problem.
Would you be able to help me out with that?
The closest cross streets are:
NE 187th St. and 35th Ave. NE
98155

Thanks! :)

John
You're in a gully, and there's plenty of tall trees to the south and west. You might have a very small chance at ch's 9-11-22 to the south, and ch13 to the SW. The ch4-5-7-16 signals are probably 150ft or more over your head, and going through a bunch of trees on the hilltop at about 168th and 26th. Reception chance .1% !Time to look into cable.
Dan

Nice thread, people.

Try NE 142nd St. & 73rd Ave. NE in Bothell/Kenmore, please. I'm at the top of Finn Hill but I'm also just east of St. Edwards state park so I have a significant stand of very tall trees between me and the transmitters. But I'm on the 2nd and top story of my building.

I've gotten decent to marginal reception on most of the major networks with my unamplified Recoton rabbit ears so far.

Leon
It looks pretty good. You only have about 1/4 mile of trees and then you're line of sight to everything. You might get by with a 4221, but the trees could give it fits. I would suggest a 4248 or yagi type.
If you have a long chunk of cable, run the rabbit ears up to the roof to see what you get. If everything starts coming in, then the 4221 will probably do fine.
Dan

John
You're in a gully, and there's plenty of tall trees to the south and west. You might have a very small chance at ch's 9-11-22 to the south, and ch13 to the SW. The ch4-5-7-16 signals are probably 150ft or more over your head, and going through a bunch of trees on the hilltop at about 168th and 26th. Reception chance .1% !Time to look into cable.
Dan

That's kind of what I thought. :(
Thanks for checking that for me Dan! :)

Don,

I have not followed the audio level problems closely her on the forum, but let me explain what I have experienced:

On KOMO-DT, I notice significant volume drops, at times, when they switch between programs and/or commercials/promos. IIRC, the volume goes very soft for locally-inserted commercials during network programming. This does not happen always, but it definitely does happen on a repeating basis. Listening, it almost sounds like a mono source with the left and right channels out of phase from one another, resulting in a null. Sometimes it only affects one commercial of two or more during the same commercial break.

I have not watched enough to discern any more pattern or consistency, but I wanted to report this in case it is somehow related to your investigation of audio issues on Comcast.

FYI, the OTA receiver I was using was an HR10-250 HD TiVo, fed optically to my DD5.1 A/V receiver.

Hi Dave -

That is interesting. It certainly is a possible out-of-phase problem. I would expect to hear that with my Dolby Digital receiver, but I haven't noticed.

Your HD Tivo is OTA, isn't it?

We are hopeful than a solution to the Comcast audio level problem is in sight. Comcast is installing a drop at the station so that they can compare the outgoing program to the QAM return. The Streamscope is capable of displaying them side-by-side.

Don

Don:

You may already know but it seems prime time HD feed from ABC is in DD 5.1 audio but local program is being decoded as Dolby ProLogic. I use Sony TA-E9000ES processor from SIR-T165 with little sound level variance but lesser decoder may cause bigger drop in level.

BTW, I don't know what happened but after experiencing poor audio on past Sunday, I have had good lock in the audio from KOMO 4-1 now. I have my finger crossed that switching the receiver from T160 to T165 is making the difference.

Ki

Don:

You may already know but it seems prime time HD feed from ABC is in DD 5.1 audio but local program is being decoded as Dolby ProLogic. I use Sony TA-E9000ES processor from SIR-T165 with little sound level variance but lesser decoder may cause bigger drop in level.

BTW, I don't know what happened but after experiencing poor audio on past Sunday, I have had good lock in the audio from KOMO 4-1 now. I have my finger crossed that switching the receiver from T160 to T165 is making the difference.

Ki


I suspect that it should be OK now, Ki. Taking the defective PSIP generator out of the circuit seemed to solve a lot of problems. No program guide will be available until the generator is repaired and replaced.

That is an interesting thought. The difference between DD5.1 and Prologic possibly could cause heartburn for different receivers...something to look into.

Don

Don,

Yes, my HD TiVo is receiving KOMO-DT OTA.

So what's up with 7.1 (cbs). I'm getting zero reading.
js

So what's up with 7.1 (cbs). I'm getting zero reading.
js

Just read your post and checked 7.1 OTA here--all is fine.

Perhaps there was something going on earlier?

7.1 was off the air for some period this morning but came back on around noonish.

Has anyone successfully contacted anyone at KING-TV? I want to see what the story is with Saturday Night Live, and why they won't broadcast it in HD in Seattle?

Has anyone successfully contacted anyone at KING-TV? I want to see what the story is with Saturday Night Live, and why they won't broadcast it in HD in Seattle?

Well over a year ago I was able to communicate briefly by email with a KING-TV station engineer regarding HD audio issues. I think I reached him initially by emailing the programming folks (whose email address was provided on their web site) and asking them to forward my email to the engineer(s).

Another option that has worked at times is, during the broadcast when the HD channel is erroneously showing the SD version, calling into their 24-hour news tip telephone line and asking to be connected to the control room, or at least have a message sent on to the control room. Their news tip line is 1-800-45-NEWS5.

Of all of the larger TV stations broadcasting digitally in Seattle, KING seems to be the least accessible and thus least receptive to viewer input. IMHO, that is too bad because there can be useful, constructive feedback provided by viewers who share the common goal of increasing the quality and availability of high definition broadcast programming.

Have you tried the email address and phone number I provided in the other thread?

Well over a year ago I was able to communicate briefly by email with a KING-TV station engineer regarding HD audio issues. I think I reached him initially by emailing the programming folks (whose email address was provided on their web site) and asking them to forward my email to the engineer(s).

Another option that has worked at times is, during the broadcast when the HD channel is erroneously showing the SD version, calling into their 24-hour news tip telephone line and asking to be connected to the control room, or at least have a message sent on to the control room. Their news tip line is 1-800-45-NEWS5.

Of all of the larger TV stations broadcasting digitally in Seattle, KING seems to be the least accessible and thus least receptive to viewer input. IMHO, that is too bad because there can be useful, constructive feedback provided by viewers who share the common goal of increasing the quality and availability of high definition broadcast programming.

Have you tried the email address and phone number I provided in the other thread?

I had tried the newsroom forward method on both Saturdays so far, and there has been no answer in the control room at all! I even overheard the extension number, so I've been calling directly ;-)

I had tried the newsroom forward method on both Saturdays so far, and there has been no answer in the control room at all! I even overheard the extension number, so I've been calling directly ;-)

Okay, I just got through to someone in programming:

Turns out that it's a silly problem. Since they delay SNL by 5 minutes, they have no way to show it in HD! In fact, they have no way to show the west coast feed at all! They actually record and show the east coast SNL feed! They only have 1 recording HD network receiver, and they can't use it at 8:30PT because there's other HD stuff coming over.

They have ordered another HD recorder!

I find this all to be astounding and humorous at the same time. I'm glad they're supposedly working on it, though.

Okay, I just got through to someone in programming:

Turns out that it's a silly problem. Since they delay SNL by 5 minutes, they have no way to show it in HD! In fact, they have no way to show the west coast feed at all! They actually record and show the east coast SNL feed! They only have 1 recording HD network receiver, and they can't use it at 8:30PT because there's other HD stuff coming over.

They have ordered another HD recorder!

I find this all to be astounding and humorous at the same time. I'm glad they're supposedly working on it, though.

Hmmm, I can record three HD streams at once, and KING-DT is saying they only have one HD recorder? That's ridiculous.

They can't use it at 8:30 PT because they have other HD stuff coming in? Well wouldn't they simply be passing that "other HD stuff" to us? Why do they need to be using a recorder at 8:30pm PT at all?

Hmmm, I can record three HD streams at once, and KING-DT is saying they only have one HD recorder? That's ridiculous.

They can't use it at 8:30 PT because they have other HD stuff coming in? Well wouldn't they simply be passing that "other HD stuff" to us? Why do they need to be using a recorder at 8:30pm PT at all?

Right, I was thinking about offering to let them use mine ;-)

What kind of market do you guys live in here???

...

What kind of market do you guys live in here???

Apparently the "we-don't-give-a-crap" market.

Is anybody else experiencing problems receiving ABC (4.1) tonight? It was just fine for me yesterday and usually I get full green bars in MCE for ABC, but tonight I only had 1 bar, and extremely stuttery video. It was a little weird though: usually if I have poor signal, I completely lose signal for a bit, then it works for a bit, then I lose it again, etc. etc. Tonight on ABC it was very regular stuttering, like a 1/4 second pause every 1 second, and I never lost the video completely. This was during MNF and the local news afterward. All other channels were at normal signal strength for me (I had fine reception on CBS and NBC).

Is anybody else experiencing problems receiving ABC (4.1) tonight? It was just fine for me yesterday and usually I get full green bars in MCE for ABC, but tonight I only had 1 bar, and extremely stuttery video. It was a little weird though: usually if I have poor signal, I completely lose signal for a bit, then it works for a bit, then I lose it again, etc. etc. Tonight on ABC it was very regular stuttering, like a 1/4 second pause every 1 second, and I never lost the video completely. This was during MNF and the local news afterward. All other channels were at normal signal strength for me (I had fine reception on CBS and NBC).

The only thing I noticed is the the loss of the HD feed in the last part of the 4 th quarter. After the game I turned to ESPN's Sport Center on *TV and saw their highlights of the same part of the game in HD. Wha happened KOMO?

definitely a KOMO problem, Seattle Comcast users reported D* feed was fine throughout the end...

Honestly, I was pretty bummed when this happened, the second half was great.

Anyone watch/record E-Ring on NBC last night? I was expierencing audio and video dropouts throughout the entire show. And, near the end they put up the SD video and audio, with the HD audio running as well, but a few seconds later. Only lasted about a minute or 2 before they corrected it, but it made for some really annoying TV. Anyways, I'm pretty sure it was the station for the audio and video dropouts since my signal was at 100% the whole time but just wanted to make sure. Funny, KOMO seems to get their act together and now KING is losing it. First, not able to broadcast Saturday Night Live in HD, and now one of their network shows has audio and video dropouts like KOMO used to have.

Anyone watch/record E-Ring on NBC last night? I was expierencing audio and video dropouts throughout the entire show. And, near the end they put up the SD video and audio, with the HD audio running as well, but a few seconds later. Only lasted about a minute or 2 before they corrected it, but it made for some really annoying TV. Anyways, I'm pretty sure it was the station for the audio and video dropouts since my signal was at 100% the whole time but just wanted to make sure. Funny, KOMO seems to get their act together and now KING is losing it. First, not able to broadcast Saturday Night Live in HD, and now one of their network shows has audio and video dropouts like KOMO used to have.

Speaking of King, anyone else been having all sorts of pixellation problems with them recently? My signal is reliably over 90% but I can't watch it.

We've got an HR10-250, and all of a sudden King went south; so it could be HW, but I was curious as to what other people are seeing.

Speaking of King, anyone else been having all sorts of pixellation problems with them recently? My signal is reliably over 90% but I can't watch it.

We've got an HR10-250, and all of a sudden King went south; so it could be HW, but I was curious as to what other people are seeing.

Sounds like the problems I was having last night, pixellation, then audio drop, black screen, then a second later it all comes back. Repeat every few minutes or so. Signal 100% the whole time.

Anyone watch/record E-Ring on NBC last night? I was expierencing audio and video dropouts throughout the entire show. And, near the end they put up the SD video and audio, with the HD audio running as well, but a few seconds later. Only lasted about a minute or 2 before they corrected it, but it made for some really annoying TV. Anyways, I'm pretty sure it was the station for the audio and video dropouts since my signal was at 100% the whole time but just wanted to make sure. Funny, KOMO seems to get their act together and now KING is losing it. First, not able to broadcast Saturday Night Live in HD, and now one of their network shows has audio and video dropouts like KOMO used to have.

Same thing happened on Leno last night. All in all, I've seen more HD screwups from other affiliates this week than ever before, and that is not including KOMO, which seems to be on the right path as of late.

Same thing happened on Leno last night. All in all, I've seen more HD screwups from other affiliates this week than ever before, and that is not including KOMO, which seems to be on the right path as of late.

Agreed! How long have HDTV broadcasts been around now?!? I mean, I've had my HDTV setup for a seemingly short 2 years, and I'm still amazed at how often things go wrong ....
- forgetting to "flip the switch" to enable HiDef
- Dolby Digital 5.1 audio in wrong channels, or missing channels, or out of phase
- glitches switching from local to network broadcasts and back
- out-of-synch audio and video
- and more!

You would sure think that most of these kinks would be worked out by now.

. . . You would sure think that most of these kinks would be worked out by now.
Makes you think they think it's just an experiment that will never catch on! Playoffs on Fox tonight is looking pretty solid.

John

Sounds like the problems I was having last night, pixellation, then audio drop, black screen, then a second later it all comes back. Repeat every few minutes or so. Signal 100% the whole time.

robglasser
Just to be clear, was it on the HD over air or local 5 on satellite?
Satellite is having major problems with all locals, transponder 18. I watched 5 rolling, no horizontal sync, during the news tonight, flipped over to cable, solid. Have had many calls on it, went out and checked about five setups, all hardware is fine. Forums on satellite reporting they're working on it.
Have not had any calls on 5 over air.
Dan

Dan-

Are you talking about Dish or DirecTV? I've been having a boat load of trouble with locals on Dish.

Rug- Check earlier in the thread: SNL isn't being broadcast in HD in Seattle because of an equipment tie-up at KING. Hopefully soon.

Dan,

5-1 OTA is 90+% signal Quality but the HR10-250 can't handle it. (Should I rescan OTA channels? Any other tips)
5 via satellite is fine, except I didn't watch the news last night.

robglasser
Just to be clear, was it on the HD over air or local 5 on satellite?
Satellite is having major problems with all locals, transponder 18. I watched 5 rolling, no horizontal sync, during the news tonight, flipped over to cable, solid. Have had many calls on it, went out and checked about five setups, all hardware is fine. Forums on satellite reporting they're working on it.
Have not had any calls on 5 over air.
Dan

This was OTA-HD for channel 5 going through my Dish Network 942. I haven't checked my SD Sat. Locals for a while.

Wasn't there something on the news reports a few weeks ago about huge Solar Flare activity which might effect Tv, radio, etc? Did this phenomena already come and go, or are we just in the middle of it right now? For the past few days, my Dish reception has been going in and out, with lots of pixalation issues.

Dan-

Are you talking about Dish or DirecTV? I've been having a boat load of trouble with locals on Dish.

Rug- Check earlier in the thread: SNL isn't being broadcast in HD in Seattle because of an equipment tie-up at KING. Hopefully soon.

brownnet
Direct. Have only a few Dish users, no calls from them.
Dan

Dan,

5-1 OTA is 90+% signal Quality but the HR10-250 can't handle it. (Should I rescan OTA channels? Any other tips)
5 via satellite is fine, except I didn't watch the news last night.

mikeg_ms
The percentage is signal to noise ratio, NOT how much signal you are getting. There must be at least -15db or so to get the indicator to read, but above that, you could have ten times that amount, and it could still be goofy and show 90%. What causes it is an unstable signal. That is, if you saw it on an analyzer, it would be bouncing all around and changing it's waveshape. It doesn't take much to upset a HD Tivo, sadly. Some other receivers have huge buffers to level out variations, like the old RCA DTC100. What makes it worse, is that all Tivo's are not all equal. Some do amazing things with ugly signal, others are not so hot.

I would not suspect KING as having problems, as much as you might have some problems with the antenna, cabling, location, etc. It could be specific to just the one channel and all others come in fine. I have many customers that call me when any problems crop up, as when KOMO was having problems recently. All has been quiet since.

There's a lot of possible causes. Start with what's your location cross streets and antenna type.
Dan

heist
You're in my old neighborhood! Went to the elementary school near you and old high school on QA, eons ago.
You have two problems.
The hill to the SW rises pretty fast, more than it looks on the topo program. The ch13 signal comes from the SW. If you were to spin the antenna around that direction, there's a small chance it might come in, but I doubt it.
The other is the antenna you're using is too directional to pick up ch13 from the side. A 4221 would probably work fine, IF you could get ch13.

Try spinning the antenna SW, and see if ch13 comes in. If so, then try the 4221 instead. It has a very wide reception pattern.
Let us know what the results are. Call if you have questions.
Dan

Dan, as promised, I'm back to post my results. I purchased 4221 and mounted it on my roof today. I removed the Radio Shack (directional) antenna. Unfortunately I still cannot receive FOX, however, my hopes weren't set too high so it isn't a big deal.

One thing that impressed me is how easily the 4221 received all the other channels! I hardly tweaked at all -- within 5 minutes I had the antenna pointing in the proper direction to get full signal on all the other channels. With my Radio Shack directional antenna it took hours to tweak just right.

So I guess from my location on the the north side of Queen Anne hill FOX is no dice. I even tried to focus my directional antenna towards Bremerton... Nothing. I'm going to keep the 4221 though, I love how it has 100% of all the other channels.

Dan, as promised, I'm back to post my results. I purchased 4221 and mounted it on my roof today. I removed the Radio Shack (directional) antenna. Unfortunately I still cannot receive FOX, however, my hopes weren't set too high so it isn't a big deal.

One thing that impressed me is how easily the 4221 received all the other channels! I hardly tweaked at all -- within 5 minutes I had the antenna pointing in the proper direction to get full signal on all the other channels. With my Radio Shack directional antenna it took hours to tweak just right.

So I guess from my location on the the north side of Queen Anne hill FOX is no dice. I even tried to focus my directional antenna towards Bremerton... Nothing. I'm going to keep the 4221 though, I love how it has 100% of all the other channels.

heist
Glad it worked out for the most part. That's the difference between the narrow yagi and the wide bow tie types.
One thing you may want to try, no big cost involved. Pick up RatShacks adjustable attenuator, set it for max, and then see if they all still come in. If so, then spin the 4221 a little more towards SW and see if FOX comes in. I would bet you're overloading the tuner right now, but it's able to handle it. Thing is, QA is so strong, that the front end of the tuner turns down it's internal preamp. and you won't be able to pick up any weaker stations. Not that FOX is weak, just compared to QA it is. If you can lower the levels, you might be able to pull FOX in. At least you will have eliminated that as about the only other possible cause. If you want, you can take it back.
As long as the other stations come in, though, suggest you leave it on and give the tuner a chance to work in a normal range. If you ever start to have a little problem, you can always dial it back up. When I do work around there, it's normal to use a 20db attenuator.
Well done.
Dan

mikeg_ms
The percentage is signal to noise ratio, NOT how much signal you are getting. There must be at least -15db or so to get the indicator to read, but above that, you could have ten times that amount, and it could still be goofy and show 90%. What causes it is an unstable signal. That is, if you saw it on an analyzer, it would be bouncing all around and changing it's waveshape. It doesn't take much to upset a HD Tivo, sadly. Some other receivers have huge buffers to level out variations, like the old RCA DTC100. What makes it worse, is that all Tivo's are not all equal. Some do amazing things with ugly signal, others are not so hot.

I would not suspect KING as having problems, as much as you might have some problems with the antenna, cabling, location, etc. It could be specific to just the one channel and all others come in fine. I have many customers that call me when any problems crop up, as when KOMO was having problems recently. All has been quiet since.

There's a lot of possible causes. Start with what's your location cross streets and antenna type.
Dan


mikeg_ms
Well shut my mouth. I spent the day at customers house that has great reception on antenna I installed a while back. You're right. KING was burping all afternoon. He has a HD Tivo. It reported levels rock solid, and my meter showed the same. Surprised I haven't heard from my usual suspects. In any case, think I'll give KING a call Monday and see wassup. Let you know.
Dan

I watched the race on King after 6:30 this evening. It was fine at my place. May look different on the HDTivo replay. If I watch it that is.

I've been having the King issues described above. I've been trying the public beta of SageTV, and thought it might have been an issue with it, and then I noticed it was only NBC stuff having the issue. I should have come here earlier to look for local issues.

Anyone else experience stuttery/tinny vibrating audio noise in either the background or foreground on KOMO? I've heard it in a couple of programs (Alias, Desparate Housewives). Basically it sounds like people are either speaking through a tin can or the background music is going through a tin can. Lasts for a little while, then usually goes away. I don't hear it on any of the other OTA channels. Last time I heard it for about 5 minutes on Alias, then the feed switched to SD and then back to HD and the noise was gone?

I'm also experiencing more blackouts/pixelation with KING lately, which has been rock solid up until now.

Anyone else experience stuttery/tinny vibrating audio noise in either the background or foreground on KOMO? I've heard it in a couple of programs (Alias, Desparate Housewives). Basically it sounds like people are either speaking through a tin can or the background music is going through a tin can. Lasts for a little while, then usually goes away. I don't hear it on any of the other OTA channels. Last time I heard it for about 5 minutes on Alias, then the feed switched to SD and then back to HD and the noise was gone?

....

Yes, I noticed the distorted DD5.1 surround channels as well, exactly as you describe. So it wasn't just your system.

mikeg_ms
Well shut my mouth. I spent the day at customers house that has great reception on antenna I installed a while back. You're right. KING was burping all afternoon. He has a HD Tivo. It reported levels rock solid, and my meter showed the same. Surprised I haven't heard from my usual suspects. In any case, think I'll give KING a call Monday and see wassup. Let you know.
Dan


Morning Dan,

I know I'm in, as I think you've called it in the past, a space time warp for HD reception, but KING's always been good. That's why I was trying to be clear by saying Signal Quality was solid over 90%. ;)

I know if the levels are bouncing a lot it's usually multipath and even thinking the word multipath in the same zip code is death to the 10-250. But for me, I know with a meter the signal level is always high (I'm on Lake Sammamish) but it's getting a clean signal that's the challenge, so with KING locked on and totally stable I'm confused.

KOMO is the one that bounces for me, but usually it manifets itself is 15-20 min of clean and then 10-15s of dropped frames, which sucks. Some days it's much worse.

Anyhow, please let me know what they say, or even better, if you have a solution ;)

Anyone know if KCTS changed anything about their transmissions? I seem to be getting higher signal strengths now and in fact, all weekend I had no issues getting a solid signal from them on my Dish 942. Today with the wind it starts to breakup occasionally, but nothing like it used to be. Prior to this weekend the last time I tried to watch KCTS I couldn't even get my receiver to stay locked on.

Morning Dan,

I know I'm in, as I think you've called it in the past, a space time warp for HD reception, but KING's always been good. That's why I was trying to be clear by saying Signal Quality was solid over 90%. ;)

I know if the levels are bouncing a lot it's usually multipath and even thinking the word multipath in the same zip code is death to the 10-250. But for me, I know with a meter the signal level is always high (I'm on Lake Sammamish) but it's getting a clean signal that's the challenge, so with KING locked on and totally stable I'm confused.

KOMO is the one that bounces for me, but usually it manifets itself is 15-20 min of clean and then 10-15s of dropped frames, which sucks. Some days it's much worse.

Anyhow, please let me know what they say, or even better, if you have a solution ;)

mikeg_ms
Finally caught someone in engineering at KING, but they were "putting out fires" and couldn't talk much. Of course, their monitor showed all okay. Told him of a few people I had actually checked on at their homes, and more from the Forum, explained what I saw on my scope, etc. He just said to get back to him when he had more time. He sounded like he really was under the gun for something major and not trying to just hang up.
So, if I can get some basic location areas from others here on the Forum, like Mikes in Sammamish, and what receiver you are using, I'll have something to tell him when I call later.
Thanks
Dan

mikeg_ms
Finally caught someone in engineering at KING, but they were "putting out fires" and couldn't talk much. Of course, their monitor showed all okay. Told him of a few people I had actually checked on at their homes, and more from the Forum, explained what I saw on my scope, etc. He just said to get back to him when he had more time. He sounded like he really was under the gun for something major and not trying to just hang up.
So, if I can get some basic location areas from others here on the Forum, like Mikes in Sammamish, and what receiver you are using, I'll have something to tell him when I call later.

I'm in Seattle (Capitol Hill) and am using an HD-Tivo (HR10-250). I've had no problems with KING up until around 2 weeks ago. Now I've had problems on several programs with several-second blackouts and pixelation. It made Joey last week unwatchable (although maybe that's a problem with the writing :) ). I also had some problems with the West Wing last Sunday and Law and Order last Wednesday.

Anyone else have major issues during Desperate Housewives? Wife watched Tivo'd episode last night. Constant drop-outs throughout the entire episode.

mikeg_ms
Finally caught someone in engineering at KING, but they were "putting out fires" and couldn't talk much. Of course, their monitor showed all okay. Told him of a few people I had actually checked on at their homes, and more from the Forum, explained what I saw on my scope, etc. He just said to get back to him when he had more time. He sounded like he really was under the gun for something major and not trying to just hang up.
So, if I can get some basic location areas from others here on the Forum, like Mikes in Sammamish, and what receiver you are using, I'll have something to tell him when I call later.
Thanks
Dan

Hey Dan, I watched both the USC/Notre Dame game and the Nascar race OTA on my Dish 921 with no hiccups last Saturday in Ballard. FYI, Im also a Kuay alum (saw that you are as well in an earlier post)...Gary

Quarque,

I hope you don't mind another "me too" post asking you to evaluate my chances of receiving HD OTA. My nearest cross street is 320th St E and 71st Ave Ct E in the Graham / Eatonvill area, zip code 98328.

Using my own copy of Topo, I am at about 600 feet; Graham hill is 900+ feet about 4 3/4 miles to the north. If I marked the right points, I'm about 46 miles from Queen Anne Hill. I'm guessing my chances are poor, but hopeful that if I put up a ham tower I might get lucky.

Thanks!

Grimmwit

The Rat Shack page says the 2160 is good for 75 miles. Sounds like fringe equipment to me, and I don't want to over oad the front end of my tuner.

I've got a clear shot at the Queen Anne towers and Bremerton from my home in South Bellevue sitting on the side of a hill.

Won't a simple "bow tie" UHF antenna work?

This is my first experience with HD (my equipment won't even show up for a couple of days), so thanks for the help.

Anyone else have major issues during Desperate Housewives? Wife watched Tivo'd episode last night. Constant drop-outs throughout the entire episode.

No issues on HD-OTA through my Dish 942.

Quarque,

I hope you don't mind another "me too" post asking you to evaluate my chances of receiving HD OTA. My nearest cross street is 320th St E and 71st Ave Ct E in the Graham / Eatonvill area, zip code 98328.

Using my own copy of Topo, I am at about 600 feet; Graham hill is 900+ feet about 4 3/4 miles to the north. If I marked the right points, I'm about 46 miles from Queen Anne Hill. I'm guessing my chances are poor, but hopeful that if I put up a ham tower I might get lucky.

Thanks!

Grimmwit

You are correct on the basic facts about the local terrain and distance to QA. However, there is always some refraction of signals going over hilltops so you never know until you try OTA. If you have no equipment you might consider borrowing a receiver and see what shows up. To get a clear shot at QA you would need a good 75' tower, but that may not be an absolute requirement. Do you have any neighbors with UHF antennas pointed north?

The Rat Shack page says the 2160 is good for 75 miles. Sounds like fringe equipment to me, and I don't want to over oad the front end of my tuner.

I've got a clear shot at the Queen Anne towers and Bremerton from my home in South Bellevue sitting on the side of a hill.

Won't a simple "bow tie" UHF antenna work?

This is my first experience with HD (my equipment won't even show up for a couple of days), so thanks for the help.

The 2160 is by no means considered a "fringe" antenna. The "real" rating I think is more like 45 miles in "average" conditions. It will not overload your receiver. A bowtie like the CM 4221 will work also. The 2160 is more directional and might help ward off reflections better than a 4221. It is also cheap and easy to buy & return.

Hey Dan, I watched both the USC/Notre Dame game and the Nascar race OTA on my Dish 921 with no hiccups last Saturday in Ballard. FYI, Im also a Kuay alum (saw that you are as well in an earlier post)...Gary

GGG
Yeah, don't know if I want to admit being a QA grad, though!
Thanks for the OTA input. The 921 I saw in Lacey was doing a heck of a job with a very weak signal, so I'm not surprised.
Dan

The Rat Shack page says the 2160 is good for 75 miles. Sounds like fringe equipment to me, and I don't want to over oad the front end of my tuner.

I've got a clear shot at the Queen Anne towers and Bremerton from my home in South Bellevue sitting on the side of a hill.

Won't a simple "bow tie" UHF antenna work?

This is my first experience with HD (my equipment won't even show up for a couple of days), so thanks for the help.

Tweak48
As quarque said, take the "mileage" statement to be a very loose guesstimate.
If you are in Woodridge or Sommerset and have line of sight, the signal may overload some older HD tuners. You won't harm the receiver, it will just like you're not getting any good signal. It can get pretty hot, 25db to 35db, with a 15-2160. You still should use it, though, as it will help keep the signal clean, and it's cheap. I would suggest at least a 10db attenuator at the input to the receiver.
Dan

Quarque,

I hope you don't mind another "me too" post asking you to evaluate my chances of receiving HD OTA. My nearest cross street is 320th St E and 71st Ave Ct E in the Graham / Eatonvill area, zip code 98328.

Using my own copy of Topo, I am at about 600 feet; Graham hill is 900+ feet about 4 3/4 miles to the north. If I marked the right points, I'm about 46 miles from Queen Anne Hill. I'm guessing my chances are poor, but hopeful that if I put up a ham tower I might get lucky.

Thanks!

Grimmwit

Grimmwit
The hill doesn't look that bad on the map, but there are some big stands of trees all along that hilltop from 292nd to 277th, which easily adds another 50-70 feet in height. I've done some surveys out there, it's not easy once you get over a hill. One was about the same elevation, but without the hill. Not much there. Possible, but the trees really cut the signal up. Ch13 will probably work, the rest, only a test will really tell.
The ham tower will need to be a biggy!
Dan

Quarque are you still plotting for addresses sent to you? If so, how about for 11910 SE 210th PL Kent WA.

Thanks,

RAD

Dan -

Yup, I'm on the Eastgate side of Somerset hill, though I still get a clear shot to QA/Olympics. Based on what you said about he signal possibly being too hot (I'm running a Dish 811 tuner), I'll run the 2160 in the attic through the old house cable system (3 way splitter with coax to 3 rooms); that should pad it down a bit.

Thanks for the help.

Quarque are you still plotting for addresses sent to you? If so, how about for 11910 SE 210th PL Kent WA.

Thanks,

RAD
That area is at about 480 feet with no hills in the way. So your only worries might be thick stands of trees to plow through.

You are correct on the basic facts about the local terrain and distance to QA. However, there is always some refraction of signals going over hilltops so you never know until you try OTA. If you have no equipment you might consider borrowing a receiver and see what shows up. To get a clear shot at QA you would need a good 75' tower, but that may not be an absolute requirement. Do you have any neighbors with UHF antennas pointed north?

Thanks for the quick reply. I've looked around, but haven't seen much. Most everyone is on 5 acres with lots of trees, so there are a lot of satellite dishes around.

I have the DirecTV HR10-250 receiver. Maybe I'll get brave one day and drop a few bucks for an antenna and see what I can get.

Again - thanks!

That area is at about 480 feet with no hills in the way. So your only worries might be thick stands of trees to plow through.


So now it is my search to find a tuner and antenna that will work for me in this area. Onward to search through the forums.

So now it is my search to find a tuner and antenna that will work for me in this area. Onward to search through the forums.

If you have an older computer around, I'd suggest researching the MyHD-130 card. It apparently is very good at multipath, and costs just over $200 (although you'll probably also need a transcoder or DVI daughterboard, either of which would add about $100.00. You should enjoy tinkering with computers at least some to go this way, however. Their software is good, but if you're not good with computers you'll probably get lost.

If you really enjoy tinkering with computers, and have a rather modern computer, I'd suggest the Fusion 5 and either MCE or SageTV (beta). Going this route will give more Tivo-like functionality.

So now it is my search to find a tuner and antenna that will work for me in this area. Onward to search through the forums.

radislander
The 4221 works well there, if you can get it up above your neighbors houses and away from trees to the NW. You could try the small RadioShack 15-2160, but it might be a little weak on some channels.
Dan

Dan -

Yup, I'm on the Eastgate side of Somerset hill, though I still get a clear shot to QA/Olympics. Based on what you said about he signal possibly being too hot (I'm running a Dish 811 tuner), I'll run the 2160 in the attic through the old house cable system (3 way splitter with coax to 3 rooms); that should pad it down a bit.

Thanks for the help.

Tweak
You're correct about the old system attenuating the signal, but it might give you more grief. The older systems usually use RG59, which can do ugly things to UHF and HD signals. It's not consistent. Also, I would bet it has loose connections, staples, kinks, etc, all allowing more signal to leak in. Then you have splitters which don't care which signals run, allowing more ingress from other TV's or other wierdness. Bottom line, run a new piece of cable if you can. It will help stablize the signal, in your case. Putting it in the attic will probably attenuate enough that you won't need anything else.
If you can, I would recommend mounting it outside. It's better to have a clean signal and then attenuate right at the tuner, than to work with a chopped up one from the attic that will loose some strength. You can mount it on the side of the house, if you want to hide it, as long as it can see west.
Dan

Anyone have OTA HD problems with Lost last night? I'm thinking it's my Dish 942 receiver but wanted to check. Problem is that about 50 minutes into the episode my video and audio hung and after about 15 seconds it reset my receiver. I tried again with same results. Obviously the recording is corrupt. Just trying to figure out the cause, the signal or the receiver.

Being new to OTA with a CM 3023 on order, I'm only getting KCPQ with my old unamplifed Rat Shack antenna. What the deal with the aspect ratios. I noticed during the baseball playoffs that every time they go to a commercial or a promo, they switch from 16:9 to 4:3. Even commercial shot in 16:9 are letterboxed into the 4:3 window. Is this common with all the Seattle stations.

Being new to OTA with a CM 3023 on order, I'm only getting KCPQ with my old unamplifed Rat Shack antenna. What the deal with the aspect ratios. I noticed during the baseball playoffs that every time they go to a commercial or a promo, they switch from 16:9 to 4:3. Even commercial shot in 16:9 are letterboxed into the 4:3 window. Is this common with all the Seattle stations.

That is normal on all the local HD stations. I think KOMO has some gear now where they are going to start showing HD/16:9 commercials, but I haven't seen any yet. Then again there isn't much besides sports I watch realtime.

mikeg_ms
Finally caught someone in engineering at KING, but they were "putting out fires" and couldn't talk much. Of course, their monitor showed all okay. Told him of a few people I had actually checked on at their homes, and more from the Forum, explained what I saw on my scope, etc. He just said to get back to him when he had more time. He sounded like he really was under the gun for something major and not trying to just hang up.
So, if I can get some basic location areas from others here on the Forum, like Mikes in Sammamish, and what receiver you are using, I'll have something to tell him when I call later.
Thanks
Dan

Update
Got a hold of engineering today. They said nothing new added, all working okay. They hadn't heard of any problems. Mentioned the Forum members, and that he might like to take a look. Asked what receiver he's using for monitoring, he said it was over in the rack, didn't know the brand. Mentioned KOMO's problems and cure, and what I saw at various customers houses. He said again all looked okay there. I don't know if anything's going to be really checked or not. Might not be a bad idea for those of you with problems to call and let them know, and give them the receiver type you have as well. Ask for engineering tech support 206-448-5555.
Dan

...just wondering if DD5.1 on KOMO during World News Tonight is a new thing? Maybe I'm just crazy, but I always thought it was broadcast in 2.0 before. Thanks.

edit: looks like we have entered the 2.0 over a 5.1 signal zone....ugh.

For KOMO-DT, I too am seeing DD 5.1 on my A/V receiver but hearing stereo (only L+R channels, no center, no rears, no subwoofer) while watching Wheel. Also, the volume level is at least 10 db down from all of the other digital (OTA) channels. Jeopardy and the commercials in between sound the same.

This is not a pleasant listening experience, partly because nothing is routed to the subwoofer in this mode. So we get tinny sounding stereo that is 10-12 db down. Must be careful to turn A/V receiver volume down 10 db before changing channels.

Recently, the DD 2.0 with matrixed surround flag on was better to listen to (for non-DD 5.1 broadcasts), but it too had low volume levels. But this mode used to sound a lot better and it did not have the 10-db-low problem before.

Personally, I am most pleased with how KIRO-DT is passing audio that is not a true DD 5.1 source. It is always detected by my A/V receiver as DD 5.1, so for non-DD 5.1 program sources, they are apparently mapping Dolby Pro Logic II outputs to the respective channels of the DD 5.1 they are sending, including sending low bass to the LFE channel.

KING-DT sends DD 2.0 audio for non-DD 5.1 sources. My Kenwood receiver sends L+R to their respective channels, I get no center channel, but I do get lower bass sent to the sub-woofer, not as LFE but based on the default settings for my "small" L+R speaker setting which sends low freq's to the subwoofer. I hear huge volume differences at times on KING-DT when changing between programs and commercials. I notice it most when watching the Tonight show, when the house is quiet. Set the volume to hear Jay and the guests, and when the commercials come on you get blasted out of the house. I think it is just the local (not network) commercials, but I have not paid close attention.

My suggestion to KING-DT and KOMO-DT: Figure how how KIRO-DT is processing and delivering their non-DD 5.1 source material and do the same.

EDIT: After listening again carefully to recent KIRO-DT recordings of true 5.1 network programs, I realize that they are not passing 5.1 through accurately. I thought in the past that KIRO had sent some good 5.1 but I may be mistaken here.

Anyone have OTA HD problems with Lost last night? I'm thinking it's my Dish 942 receiver but wanted to check. Problem is that about 50 minutes into the episode my video and audio hung and after about 15 seconds it reset my receiver. I tried again with same results. Obviously the recording is corrupt. Just trying to figure out the cause, the signal or the receiver.
I watched it OTA on my Sammy T150 and had virtually no problems for the whole show. I say "virtually" because I seem to remember a hiccup or two but only for a fraction of a second - no major drops or freezes. I recall the 942 not getting rave reviews everywhere.

No problems with KOMO-DT's over-the-air recording of "Lost" on my HR10-250 DirecTV DVR. KOMO has been great lately.

Must be careful to turn A/V receiver volume down 10 db before changing channels.




I forgot to do just that last night at the most unfortunate time :p

BTW, KOMO is still doing 2.0 over 5.1 and it is still WAY TOO QUIET. Basically this sucks and I hope Don hears us and gives us back a normal 2.0 stream so we can Pro Logic it.

Oh yeah, anyone want to take bets on SNL in HD tomorrow? I think 5:1 is fair ;)

Just a quick note to update some of you on the change in the KOMO-DT audio showing 5.1 mode being on all the time.

Over the past several months we have been experiencing several complaints from Comcast cable viewers with certain models of cable boxes about audio disappearing for several seconds when KOMO switches between HD from ABC and our standard definition commercials, promos, news updates, etc.

We theorized that some receivers for OTA, along with some cable boxes have trouble re-syncing to audio when the encoder is switched between stereo and 5.1 during programming transitions. Symptoms include stuttering audio, severe level changes, complete audio loss, and lip-sync that requires rebooting the receiver or box to correct.

Recently we tried an experiment which holds the encoder in 5.1 mode, even though the program content may be in stereo to see if it eliminates the problem. So far the results seem to indicate a reduction in severe audio problems in the range of 75% improvement.

Whereas we are in contact with Dolby Labs about the problem of switching our encoder, and the effect it seems to have on certain cable boxes and receivers, we simply don't have a solution yet.

Rather than dealing with the myriad of complaints from Comcast viewers, (and some OTA), when switching between stereo and 5.1, I have made the decision to leave KOMO in 5.1 encoding until we can work with Dolby to come up with a solution. Ultimately though, if there is a compelling reason that our viewers would rather have me lock KOMO into stereo for the time being, I'm open to the suggestion.

It's hard to make everyone happy as a early adopter, but we try our best.

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
Fisher Broadcasting
KOMO TV4 Seattle

Kelly,

Thanks for the update. I for one see the value of staying in DD 5.1 mode, even though I conversed with Don W. when the switching to DD 2.0 with the matrix surround flag seemed like the intent of the standards and Dolby recommendations in their documentation.

KIRO-DT is staying in DD 5.1 at all times, but they have provided a much better mapping of non-5.1 sources into the 5.1 discrete channels. If you could emulate what they have done, I think you would have the best combination. For non-5.1 sources, it sounds like they somehow map Dolby PL II decoder output into the discrete channels of DD 5.1, plus they send the lower frequencies through the LFE channel to our subwoofers.

I have two HDTVs in operation. All local channel HDTV reception is OTA (not cable). For one, I have an A/V receiver and listen to DD 5.1 audio digitally output from the HD receiver. The other uses analog L+R audio outputs from the HD receiver, thus using a downmix from DD 5.1 to stereo audio for the TV. KIRO-DT audio works perfectly for both, whether the program source audio is DD 5.1 or D PL II or plain stereo or even mono (some commercials).

Is there any friendly way for you folks to determine exactly how KIRO-DT has set up their audio path so you can do the same?

EDIT: After listening again carefully to recent KIRO-DT recordings of true 5.1 network programs, I realize that they are not passing 5.1 through accurately. I thought in the past that KIRO had sent some good 5.1 but I may be mistaken here.

With all due respect Budget_HT (hides behind couch :)), I do not care for KIRO's treatment of 5.1 material. It seems to me that they are actually not providing discreet channels when they should. If you compare a 5.1 on KOMO say LOST, to 5.1 from KIRO say NCIS, you can really hear the difference.

KIRO's sounds like each channel is getting the same information, in other words, you can hear dialogue out of the surround channels when it should clearly be coming from the center channel only (please excuse my highly technical explanation, lol).

A few others have had similar complaints about KIRO's 5.1, but I can only speak for myself when I say it is totally unlike the 5.1 streams from KOMO, KING, etc...

As for the complaints regarding the audio switching- I have never even heard of this problem and sounds very unfortunate. Although it seems it is a hardware issue, and I would imagine that if the majority of the problems are for Comcast users, then Comcast should perhaps address the problem. Personally, I have MDM cable and do not have this problem with my Motorola DCT6400, or with my OTA setup a Samsung SIRT 351 reciever. edit: or my ATI HDTV Wonder PCI card.

Getting a 2.0 signal over 5.1 is bad for three major reasons. First, there is no way to decode in ProLogic or Circle Surround(for the vast majority of A/V recievers). Secondly, there is no LFE, period. Thirdly, the sheer decibal variation is enough to give anyone a heart attack while reaching for the volume control.

I understand KOMO's position, and you guys are better than all other stations when it comes to listening to viewers, but personally I don't welcome this change, mostly because I heard how the sound quality changed when KIRO did it.

Just a quick note to update some of you on the change in the KOMO-DT audio showing 5.1 mode being on all the time.

Over the past several months we have been experiencing several complaints from Comcast cable viewers with certain models of cable boxes about audio disappearing for several seconds when KOMO switches between HD from ABC and our standard definition commercials, promos, news updates, etc.

We theorized that some receivers for OTA, along with some cable boxes have trouble re-syncing to audio when the encoder is switched between stereo and 5.1 during programming transitions. Symptoms include stuttering audio, severe level changes, complete audio loss, and lip-sync that requires rebooting the receiver or box to correct.

Recently we tried an experiment which holds the encoder in 5.1 mode, even though the program content may be in stereo to see if it eliminates the problem. So far the results seem to indicate a reduction in severe audio problems in the range of 75% improvement.

Whereas we are in contact with Dolby Labs about the problem of switching our encoder, and the effect it seems to have on certain cable boxes and receivers, we simply don't have a solution yet.

Rather than dealing with the myriad of complaints from Comcast viewers, (and some OTA), when switching between stereo and 5.1, I have made the decision to leave KOMO in 5.1 encoding until we can work with Dolby to come up with a solution. Ultimately though, if there is a compelling reason that our viewers would rather have me lock KOMO into stereo for the time being, I'm open to the suggestion.

It's hard to make everyone happy as a early adopter, but we try our best.

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
Fisher Broadcasting
KOMO TV4 Seattle

Kelly - we appreciate your post and your efforts. I can see that you are fighting more than one battle and on more than one front. I have only experienced the sync problem during 5.1/stereo switching a few times on my OTA receiver. I have seen some sort of sync problem at some point on almost every local channel so the problem is real and probably very much affected by the specific equipment used by each consumer. Obviously some hardware designs are better than others. As for staying in 5.1, I think it is a reasonable compromise for the short term. You need to do what satisfies the largest number of viewers even if it does not please some small minority. We hope you will get some help from Dolby sooner rather than later.

With all due respect Budget_HT (hides behind couch :)), I do not care for KIRO's treatment of 5.1 material. It seems to me that they are actually not providing discreet channels when they should. If you compare a 5.1 on KOMO say LOST, to 5.1 from KIRO say NCIS, you can really hear the difference.

KIRO's sounds like each channel is getting the same information, in other words, you can hear dialogue out of the surround channels when it should clearly be coming from the center channel only (please excuse my highly technical explanation, lol).

A few others have had similar complaints about KIRO's 5.1, but I can only speak for myself when I say it is totally unlike the 5.1 streams from KOMO, KING, etc...

As for the complaints regarding the audio switching- I have never even heard of this problem and sounds very unfortunate. Although it seems it is a hardware issue, and I would imagine that if the majority of the problems are for Comcast users, then Comcast should perhaps address the problem. Personally, I have MDM cable and do not have this problem with my Motorola DCT6400, or with my OTA setup a Samsung SIRT 351 reciever. edit: or my ATI HDTV Wonder PCI card.

Getting a 2.0 signal over 5.1 is bad for three major reasons. First, there is no way to decode in ProLogic or Circle Surround(for the vast majority of A/V recievers). Secondly, there is no LFE, period. Thirdly, the sheer decibal variation is enough to give anyone a heart attack while reaching for the volume control.

I understand KOMO's position, and you guys are better than all other stations when it comes to listening to viewers, but personally I don't welcome this change, mostly because I heard how the sound quality changed when KIRO did it.

I stand corrected. We are not getting the same KIRO-DT DD 5.1 that we used to get.

I guess I did not listen carefully, but my HD recordings of late prove your point. It is almost as if they never truly turn on the 5.1 pass through from the network source.

So, we want KOMO-DT-quality 5.1 and KIRO-DT-quality non-5.1.

Regarding a DD 2.0 signal over 5.1, I agree completely.

This must be a very difficult thing to achieve, perhaps because of equipment limitations at the stations.

I don't see why passing the OTA-equivalent signal through Comcast would cause any difference in audio treatment, but I can't argue with facts.

You are correct Budget when you say it seems that KIRO does not "flip the switch" when true 5.1 audio comes from the network. What we have been getting lately is pure crap. I am shocked that more people around here haven't made a fuss over it. IMO, KIRO's 5.1 "always on" sound is about as awful as it can get. They are absolutely destroying the sound quality and eliminating the whole point of DD5.1, which is 6 discrete channels.

KOMO is way too smart to do something like KIRO has done. That would be the worst possible scenerio for everyone. Unfortunately, their current solution is very troublesome as well. I'm not lazy, but I do not enjoy playing the volume control game either. Right now, KOMO is getting a big pass with the remote to avoid the issue entirely. KOMO needs to at least increase the volume DRAMATICALLY to compensate for this 2.0 over 5.1 stuff. Furthermore, if they really want to do this, they also need to send something over the LFE channel, even if it is the exact same signal they are sending over the 2.0 channels. We need bass KOMO. Please please do not let this be case closed at this point. Right now, the volume of KOMO is lower than 9-5, which is just crazy!


***EDIT: I am listening to KIRO right now (football game) and it is so funny...just stick your ear up against any speaker you want, and it's all the same. What a joke.

Am I mistaken, or did we once have good DD 5.1 on CBS HD programs from KIRO?

Right now on KIRO, I am getting DD 2.0 during the CBS news. L+R only, nothing from the center or surround speakers.

Now the KIRO local news is on, and I am still getting DD 2.0, L+R.

Actually, I am getting bass through my subwoofer because I have set my A/V receiver options to route bass to subwoofer for any stereo source, which applies to analog L+R and DD 2.0.

radislander
The 4221 works well there, if you can get it up above your neighbors houses and away from trees to the NW. You could try the small RadioShack 15-2160, but it might be a little weak on some channels.
Dan

So now I'm looking for a LG LST 4200A. Maybe somebody has one just laying around. PM me if you have one for sale

NCIS on KIRO-DT has DD 2.0 audio tonight.

Now the KIRO local news is on, and I am still getting DD 2.0, L+R.

Actually, I am getting bass through my subwoofer because I have set my A/V receiver options to route bass to subwoofer for any stereo source, which applies to analog L+R and DD 2.0.

Yes noticed that too. Maybe KIRO is updating their 5.1 system.

With a 2.0 signal, you would always be getting bass because the A/V receiver is designed that way, with 2.0 over 5.1, there is a signal sent to the sub, but there is no audio information on it. : KCTS does the same thing on 9-5 unfortunately. On a PBS channel, it just doesn't seem as big of a deal though.

CBS does an outstanding job on sound mixing. You hear all the sounds on the field, and some of the funny fans too. Fox does an ok job. ESPN/ABC piss poor.

This was mentioned in another topic. CBS might do great sound mixing, but what does this help if the local affiliates distribute only 2.0?

Just a quick note to update some of you on the change in the KOMO-DT audio showing 5.1 mode being on all the time.

Over the past several months we have been experiencing several complaints from Comcast cable viewers with certain models of cable boxes about audio disappearing for several seconds when KOMO switches between HD from ABC and our standard definition commercials, promos, news updates, etc.

We theorized that some receivers for OTA, along with some cable boxes have trouble re-syncing to audio when the encoder is switched between stereo and 5.1 during programming transitions. Symptoms include stuttering audio, severe level changes, complete audio loss, and lip-sync that requires rebooting the receiver or box to correct.

Recently we tried an experiment which holds the encoder in 5.1 mode, even though the program content may be in stereo to see if it eliminates the problem. So far the results seem to indicate a reduction in severe audio problems in the range of 75% improvement.

Whereas we are in contact with Dolby Labs about the problem of switching our encoder, and the effect it seems to have on certain cable boxes and receivers, we simply don't have a solution yet.

Rather than dealing with the myriad of complaints from Comcast viewers, (and some OTA), when switching between stereo and 5.1, I have made the decision to leave KOMO in 5.1 encoding until we can work with Dolby to come up with a solution. Ultimately though, if there is a compelling reason that our viewers would rather have me lock KOMO into stereo for the time being, I'm open to the suggestion.

It's hard to make everyone happy as a early adopter, but we try our best.

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
Fisher Broadcasting
KOMO TV4 Seattle

Thank you for working on this. It is something I've always had a problem with because when the signal changes it takes my receiver a couple of seconds to cut over from 2.0 to 5.1 and if there is any important said on a show right away I miss it, luckily it's not usually too big of a deal because dialogue doesn't usually start in right away, there is usually a transition back.

You have caused me to switch watching KOMO news in the morning now. With dolbty digital lit up this morning there was not one sound coming from the center channel, all voices were coming in from all 4 speaker but no front..I turned to KIRO and I will until I can hear KOMO 4 in a normal manner...5.1 all the time is not the way to do it...thank goodness for choices....

Well then what do you suggest? Clearly you must have some suggestion since you feel we aren't making the correct decision and would rather hear loss of audio or out of sync conditions when switching between feeds. Obviously you must have a better plan in the interim. How about sharing with the group? Mono feed all five channels? My guess is that the rest of the group may find that method unacceptable.

Did anyone else loose KING last night? It is usually one of my stronger signals and I wasn't getting anything. Thought maybe their signal get interrupted.

Well then what do you suggest? Clearly you must have some suggestion since you feel we aren't making the correct decision and would rather hear loss of audio or out of sync conditions when switching between feeds. Obviously you must have a better plan in the interim. How about sharing with the group? Mono feed all five channels? My guess is that the rest of the group may find that method unacceptable.

Kelly,

Thanks for listening and taking some action. We really appreciate the status updates.

Unfortunately, there are many brands, models and vintages of HD receivers out here and they all seem to have a personality of their own, especially when it comes to audio. It looks like there is no single "right answer" because of these differences.

To complicate things even more, the downstream A/V receivers that allow us to listen to DD 5.1 also react differently, so add another wild variable to the equation.

We would like to help by serving as a test bed for you. If you are preparing to make change, let us know ahead of time so we can watch/listen to see what effect that change has on our equipment. We can report in here, or in a new thread just for that purpose, to give you data that includes how various brands and combinations of receivers are behaving.

Just let us know how we can help you from here. And please discount the overreactions of some folks who let their frustrations get the best of them. We would all like perfection, but the standards, the industry and the equipment are just not there yet.

And, BTW, on this forum, Don Wilkinson has been a great KOMO-DT spokesperson for some time now. While I am glad to hear from you, I hope that does not mean that we won't be hearing from Don anymore.

Thanks again for your support and your sharing of information.

Anyone else see severe dropouts on Surface tonight (KING 5.1)? I've got the Rat Shack Accurian for OTA. Signal meter shows strong, steady signal. Dropouts got better as the show went on. :mad:

Anyone else see severe dropouts on Surface tonight (KING 5.1)? I've got the Rat Shack Accurian for OTA. Signal meter shows strong, steady signal. Dropouts got better as the show went on. :mad:

I did at the start of the show. It appeared I was receiving what was being sent and my dish 942 recorded all of it but the actual signal they were sending was bad. Then after they got past the intro and first set of commercials the signal was viewable but not broadcast in HD. Pretty much the same thing happened to me the night before.

I did at the start of the show. It appeared I was receiving what was being sent and my dish 942 recorded all of it but the actual signal they were sending was bad. Then after they got past the intro and first set of commercials the signal was viewable but not broadcast in HD. Pretty much the same thing happened to me the night before.

Thanks, Chuck. Very helpful to know the problem wasn't on my end.

Comcast cable had the same thing.