Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 16

mhfnet

10-26-05, 08:06 PM

I called DirecTV and was told the games will be on HD channels 90-99. It will come free to subscribers in the Fox Sports NW region (those who already get FSNW on channel 651 with the standard Total Choice) and those with NBA League Pass. :D

FSN to Broadcast Sonics in HDTV
October 25, 2005 FSN today announced a 71-game regular season television schedule for the Seattle SuperSonics, which for the 2005-06 season includes the presentation of its home telecasts in High-Definition Television (HDTV). This marks the first time in Sonics franchise history that local telecasts have been produced in HDTV and continues FSN’s high-definition effort which includes select Mariners and college football telecasts.

FSN will produce a total of 43 Sonics games in HDTV, the largest number of games being offered for any NBA franchise by a regional network. The high-definition schedule is comprised of 36 home dates at KeyArena, 2 games against the I-5 rival Portland Trail Blazers and an additional 5 road contests over the course of the season.

The Sonics on FSN in HDTV will be available to customers with Wave Broadband, Click! Network and DirecTV. FSN is currently in negotiations with additional cable operators in the hopes of broadening the reach of Sonics games in HDTV to additional homes throughout the Northwest.

FSN will begin its 2005-06 coverage with the Sonics’ first regular-season game with the Home Opener against the Los Angeles Clippers at 7:00 p.m. on November 2nd. FSN Live will originate from KeyArena at 6:30pm.

“It will be an NBA season like no other for FSN, the Sonics and our fans and viewers with the significant additions we have made to our team coverage for the 2005-06 campaign,” said Mark Shuken, Vice President and General Manager at FSN Northwest. “With the presentation of games in HDTV added to an already comprehensive package of events and programs, FSN will showcase the Sonics more completely and creatively than any other team in the NBA.”

Another platform for FSN's Sonics HD package is the new FSN HD Lounge presented by DirecTV at KeyArena, which will allow many fans who may never have experienced a game in high definition the opportunity to do so. Open to all ticket holders following the tipoff of each Sonics home matchup, fans can catch the action of the game on the KeyArena court as well as games televised by FSN on the lounge’s numerous high-def televisions.

Familiar voices return to call the Sonics action on FSN this season, as Kevin Calabro begins his 19th season as the Voice of the Sonics alongside Washington State alumnus and former NBA guard Craig Ehlo, entering his second season. Brian Davis continues as the host of the FSN Live and halftime shows while Seattle basketball legend Lenny Wilkens will be a regular contributor as FSN’s NBA expert.

FSN will continue to cover every facet of the Sonics and the NBA with FSN Live before and after every Sonics telecast, Sonics All Access every Wednesday night at 6:30 p.m, new editions of Before the Bigs and Sonics specials before, during and after the season.

“With the addition of HDTV, our partnership with FSN continues to maximize the Sonics experience for our fans throughout the region,” said Sonics President and CEO Wally Walker. “FSN’s commitment to dynamic Sonics broadcasts greatly enhances each viewer’s television package. We’re excited to get the 2005-06 schedule rolling and to watch this season in HD.”

To extend the Sonics reach throughout the state of Washington, FSN has created a television network that will carry Sonics telecasts beyond the Seattle DMA (Designated Marketing Area). In Spokane, FSN has partnered with KQUP and in Yakima/Tri-Cities, all 71of FSN’s regular season Sonics telecasts will be aired on KENN-TV and KCJT-TV. Between the cable and satellite subscribers in the Seattle DMA and the over-the-air stations in Spokane and Yakima/Tri-Cities, Sonics telecasts will reach nearly 1.5 million homes across the state of Washington.

radislander

10-26-05, 10:14 PM

richmondbeach

10-26-05, 10:43 PM

Awesome news. Thanks for the post ,I have yet to hear about it from any the Seattle media. Now if they would get rid of Ehlo, the broadcasts were great when Marques Johnson was KC's sidekick.

DanKurts

10-27-05, 01:56 AM

Alright I'm a little cheapskate on most things and do not want to mount a very big antenna on my rooftop. But is that what it will take to get all the channels? I currently get:

05.1 King NBC
05.2 King 5 weather
07.1 Kiro CBS
07.2 the airport
09.1 KCTS
09.3 KCTS Learns
09.5 KCTS HD
13.1 KCPQ Fox

What antenna can I use to get the most channles and be the least obtrusive. My Monitor and antenna are on the lower floor facing north and behind a two story house. I will probably hear that if I just put an antenna on the roof I will get all the channels.

Any input from the HDTV OTA gurus is greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance,

Bob

Bob
The 4221 would be the best bet for where you are, if it can get a clear shot to the NW past the house next door. It doesn't need to be up on the roof, just where it can get a good look. It can also be mounted on the side of the house. A chepaer antenna to try would be the 15-2160 from Rat Shack, only about $20, and you can take it back if it doesn't work. It can also be mounted on the side of the house. What will slow you down are trees, and the neighbors house. Of course, mounting on the roof is best. If you have a chimney that's above the houses, you can mount either antenna on the side and it won't be as noticeable.
Call if you have questions.
Dan

DrCrawn

10-27-05, 10:40 PM

Well then what do you suggest? Clearly you must have some suggestion since you feel we aren't making the correct decision and would rather hear loss of audio or out of sync conditions when switching between feeds. Obviously you must have a better plan in the interim. How about sharing with the group? Mono feed all five channels? My guess is that the rest of the group may find that method unacceptable.

Hi Kelly, I hope you are still reading this thread. My suggestion a few posts back, was to send the stereo signal over the LFE channels as well.

I understand your sarcasm, but mono feeding all five channels isn't going to work, but how about a 5 channel stereo mode? That seems reasonable. Either way, can you please send some information to the LFE channel? PLEASE! The sound is very flat without any bass whatsoever for many of us that use a sub exclusively for low frequencies. Thanks very much.

codeyf

10-28-05, 03:50 PM

robglasser

10-28-05, 04:10 PM

Thanks to the excellent info provided to my by DK, my 4221 is now chimney mounted and receiving all channels except Fox :(

However, I think I just need to go pick up a compass and check my direction to get it. All other channels are coming in with a signal strength ~90 (according to my receiver).

The only channels I had studdering issues with was some worship channels? Never heard of them, no actual HD content, so I just removed them from my channels so I don't have to flip through them.

Haven't watched The Apprentice or Survivor in ages, yet I found myself watching them last night cuz it looked so dang good!

FYI, I am just south of Mill Creek, in the May's Pond subdivision right off of Bothell-Everett Hwy. Channel Master 4221 going in to a Accurian (Radio Shack) HDTV receiver in to a Sony 40" XBR CRT Wega.

You might want to play with your antenna direction a bit more, unless it is trees blocking your reception of KCPQ. I live just north of you near martha lake and with my 4221 I can get all the seattle stations, and fox. I just have my antenna pointed between the seattle towers and the kcpq tower. The wide angle reception of the 4221 lets me get both with reliable signals in the upper 80's and low 90's. Some channels, like 5 are even at 100%.

codeyf

10-28-05, 04:20 PM

You might want to play with your antenna direction a bit more, unless it is trees blocking your reception of KCPQ. I live just north of you near martha lake and with my 4221 I can get all the seattle stations, and fox. I just have my antenna pointed between the seattle towers and the kcpq tower. The wide angle reception of the 4221 lets me get both with reliable signals in the upper 80's and low 90's. Some channels, like 5 are even at 100%.

Yeah, I figured I'd just have to mess with it a little bit. As it is, I need to figure out how I'm going to get the cable in to my house, as right now I just have it coming in thru the window. But that was good enough for last night. Will get that part sorted out this weekend.

I think a compass and 20-30 minutes will get me on the Fox NFL boat :D

Hawks have a bye this week anyway, and 24 won't be starting for a while ;)

robglasser

10-28-05, 04:39 PM

Yeah, I figured I'd just have to mess with it a little bit. As it is, I need to figure out how I'm going to get the cable in to my house, as right now I just have it coming in thru the window. But that was good enough for last night. Will get that part sorted out this weekend.

I think a compass and 20-30 minutes will get me on the Fox NFL boat :D

Hawks have a bye this week anyway, and 24 won't be starting for a while ;)

I wouldn't even bother with a compass. Start rotating the antenna to the west until you find the sweet spot between the towers that yields the best results.

codeyf

10-28-05, 05:02 PM

I wouldn't even bother with a compass. Start rotating the antenna to the west until you find the sweet spot between the towers that yields the best results.

Wait a sec, where is the Fox tower? AntennaWeb says Tacoma, but is there one closer?

DanKurts

10-28-05, 07:45 PM

Wait a sec, where is the Fox tower? AntennaWeb says Tacoma, but is there one closer?

codeyf
Well done.
Aiming.
From where you are, it's basically one direction. Just turn the antenna a little more west. You could go as much as 45 degrees to the west and might still get it. Aiming is not crucial for you. What you're doing is trying to eliminate a bounce or interference. Obviously there's a limit how far. As Rob said, just tweak it, while watching the signal meter on the receiver. If it comes in, then split the difference between there and the original starting point. If you still can't get all, then it might be time to switch antennas for a more directional one, like the 4248. The hill in the distance comes into play more for 13, because it's so much further away.
Call if you have questions.
Dan

quarque

10-28-05, 09:38 PM

Wait a sec, where is the Fox tower? AntennaWeb says Tacoma, but is there one closer?
It's actually on Gold Mtn. just west of Bremerton. For you it is about 15 degrees west of the line to the Seattle towers. Ch 13 tower is very high up so your problem might be a strong reflection causing interference. Antenna aiming can sometimes eliminate the reflection so try everything from due south to due west.

igreg

10-29-05, 10:22 PM

Tweak48

10-30-05, 04:30 PM

DanKurts

10-30-05, 09:29 PM

Being on the east side of Somerset hill I thought I would peg the meter and overload the front end of my tuner with my attic mounted 15-2160, but by the time the signal plows through a 2 way splitter and the house's 20 year old RG-59 wiring, there isn't much left. From my Dish 811 box:

KING - 49% drops in and out
KIRO - 74%
KCTS - 80%
KOMO - 76%
KONG - 50% drops in and out
KTWB - 77%
19.01??? - 68%

Others like KSTW or KCPQ I can't get at all.

Based on these numbers should I rotate more SW or NW to improve things? I really need to improve King as a minimum.

Thanks! I know I should redo the wiring with RG-6 but that will be an exterior job on a three story house, so I'd like to use the pre-wired '59 through the winter if I can.

Tweak48
You meant on the WEST side of Somerset, right?
You can move it around, but may not make much difference.
The channel percentages are NOT an indicator of how much actual signal is coming in, only if it's good enough to work with. Overloading can look just like what you're getting.
Try two things.
Put an adjustable attenuator from RatShack on just behind the receiver. If it only causes more channels to drop out, then you most likely have some loss in the cable, but probably not the main problem. While you're at RatShack, pick up a 100ft chunk of coax with ends, or a 50ft one if it would reach, and temporarily run it from the attic down to the set through the halls, without the attenutor. It will at least eliminate the old cabling as being the culprit. If there's no change, then you know the attic location is the problem. Once moved outside, there might be enough to overcome the 59 cable. And you can return the two items and get your money, back, too, after testing.
Dan

Tweak48

10-30-05, 09:56 PM

Thanks. I'll give it a try and report back. The football game on KIRO and the travel shows on KCTS looked great today!

Tweak48

10-30-05, 10:01 PM

Oh, and that was the east side of Somerset; about 150th Ave southeast. Pretty much straight up the hill from the LDS temple.

DanKurts

10-31-05, 12:47 AM

Oh, and that was the east side of Somerset; about 150th Ave southeast. Pretty much straight up the hill from the LDS temple.

Tweak48
If you are on 150th and the east side of Somerset hill, south of I-90, that's a big part of the problem. The Temple is on the north side of I-90.
In any case, you really need to get that antenna outside. You're around the corner of the hill a bit.
Dan

Joe Hendrix

10-31-05, 01:31 PM

DanKurts

10-31-05, 03:39 PM

I'm finally getting back into the OTA HD game, and have a couple of questions that have probably been answered before, so I'm sorry for the repetition:

1. I have two antenna, one on the roof, the other inside, which I have hooked up to a A/B selector. One is for all of the Seattle stations, the other is for FOX (Bremerton). I have to manually make the switch to the other antenna if I want to watch FOX. Could I exchange the A/B selector for a splitter which would accept the two antenna signals, and output them onto a single cable to my TV? I know this might reduce the signal, but I've got a pretty strong signal already. Or, would this cause too much interference between the two sources and give me a bunch of garbage?

2. I've heard on a Join-tenna, and done some searching on the web for this product, but it seems that it's a discontinued product. Would the jointenna be a good solution? If so, where could I buy one? Is there any problems with hooking these up?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Joe
The Jointenna will couple the two antennas you're going for. It's not perfect or ideal, but 90% of the time it works. Order the Channel Master 0585-18, which is for ch18 (KCPQ FOX 13 HD is ch18 UHF). Using a 2 way splitter will not work. Both antennas will add and the result is usally far worse. The Jointenna keeps them separate. Not sure where you order it, thought Stark Antennas had them, but don't see them listed, might call and ask.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
Dan

Joe Hendrix

10-31-05, 07:04 PM

Thanks for the quick reply. It appears that Stark Electronics takes orders via E-mail??? Anyway, I sent them an E-mail asking for a quote to ship it to me. I'll post my results.

Chuck Ebby

11-01-05, 12:11 PM

Thanks for the quick reply. It appears that Stark Electronics takes orders via E-mail??? Anyway, I sent them an E-mail asking for a quote to ship it to me. I'll post my results.

Joe,

Good luck with the jointenna. Personal experience mixed results with the 13/18 jointenna. If your signal is stong enough to take a minor downgrade going thru the jointenna it will work fine. In my case, it got to be too iffy. An electronic remote control a/b switch (radio shack) might be an alternative for you. Yes it is a minor inconvience to plan recordings, but getting a usable signal is the main thing.

Joe Hendrix

11-01-05, 01:34 PM

Joe,

Good luck with the jointenna. Personal experience mixed results with the 13/18 jointenna. If your signal is stong enough to take a minor downgrade going thru the jointenna it will work fine. In my case, it got to be too iffy. An electronic remote control a/b switch (radio shack) might be an alternative for you. Yes it is a minor inconvience to plan recordings, but getting a usable signal is the main thing.

Thanks for the information. I guess it's all become a moot point, since this is the reply I received from Stark Electronics:

"we do not sell them. Too many delivery problems in the past.

Al"

I guess I'll take your advice, and go with an electronic remote control a/b switch.

DanKurts

11-01-05, 02:44 PM

Joe,

Good luck with the jointenna. Personal experience mixed results with the 13/18 jointenna. If your signal is stong enough to take a minor downgrade going thru the jointenna it will work fine. In my case, it got to be too iffy. An electronic remote control a/b switch (radio shack) might be an alternative for you. Yes it is a minor inconvience to plan recordings, but getting a usable signal is the main thing.

Chuck
If you still have the jointenna, sell it to Joe.
You are correct, jointenna is not that swift, but can work with the right signals.
Dan

rback

11-01-05, 04:11 PM

DrCrawn

11-01-05, 06:31 PM

Has anyone noticed a change in the KTWB HDTV broadcast signal strength recently?

I live in Kirkland, only 7 miles (according to antennaweb) from their HDTV
antenna and in line-of-site from my house. Last week, I could receive the station fine, with a very strong
signal.

This week, seems to have started on Saturday (10/29), I get a very low signal,
so that HDTV is pretty much unwatchable.

Is it just me, or are others noticing this as well?

I think air temperature and weather in general can affect reception, but I haven't noticed anything with 22-1 lately. I can only pick up 22-1 with a specific antenna placement, and reception is maybe 70% if I'm lucky, so I will check tonight to see if I am still picking it up.

nodrog2

11-02-05, 04:04 PM

DanKurts

11-03-05, 04:20 PM

This is off the antenna conversation but - can anyone direct me to a forum discussing closed caption - or lack of it on hdtv. It is lousy on 107, poor 0n 104 and good on 113. I'm on Comcast and they can't seem to pin down the problem. It happens mostly at night during dramas such as csi. Help please..

nodrog2
If it's an intermittent problem, might be the box itself. If they're in a place with little or no air circulation, and get toasty enough, they can start to have all kinds of wierdness.
Dan

litzdog911

11-06-05, 01:38 AM

Thanks for the information. I guess it's all become a moot point, since this is the reply I received from Stark Electronics:

"we do not sell them. Too many delivery problems in the past.

Al"

I guess I'll take your advice, and go with an electronic remote control a/b switch.

I bought my JoinTenna from Warren Electronics. Works great for me in Mill Creek.

Joe Hendrix

11-06-05, 10:29 AM

I bought my JoinTenna from Warren Electronics. Works great for me in Mill Creek.

Thanks. I'll check them out. I've got other problems now. Just picked up my HTPC with a Fusion5 HDTV tuner in it, and it stutters about every 20 seconds for about 1/2 a second. I know that the person I bought it from is going to claim reception as the issue, but when I owned a Panny LCD Rear Projector about 6 months ago and it had an internal HD Tuner and gave me no problems at all.

I was able to record the Fusion's Signal strength meter. Could anyone tell me if these numbers indicate a problem:

Station Signal Strength Db
Kong 85 - 89 23 - 24
Komo 85 - 91 23.7 - 24.8
Kiro 84 - 90 22.6 - 24.4
PBS 87 - 93 24.0 - 24.8
King 82 - 91 22.3 - 24.4

Most of the time, the bar color was yellow, but when it reached into the 90's, it would turn blue.

Also, the signal strength would never hold steady. It would bounce around quite a bit between the high and low that I listed above. None of the signals would ever drop below the low number I listed.

I know the weather has been really nasty the last couple days (Friday and Saturday), and that may have something to do with it, but with the Panny tuner... bad weather would only cause a few dropouts on very rare occasions.

Any help on this would be appreciated. Anyone have experience with this tuner? Should I try a different HD Tuner for the computer?

Rico66

11-06-05, 07:31 PM

I know that there have been some discussions a couple of weeks ago regarding 5.1 DD versus 2.0 stereo for the various local stations. But does anybody know why KIRO uses only 2.0? I was watching the football game today and noticed that it was only 2.0, whereas CBS provides a 5.1 signal. Is KIRO lacking the right equipment to provide 5.1 sound? I seem to recall that they used to have 5.1 a couple of weeks ago (or am mixing this up with another channel)?

aronparsons

11-06-05, 11:34 PM

Am I mistaken, or did we once have good DD 5.1 on CBS HD programs from KIRO?

Right now on KIRO, I am getting DD 2.0 during the CBS news. L+R only, nothing from the center or surround speakers.

A month or two back all shows that advertised DD5.1 had it. Now CBS is doing everything in 2.0, which sucks (CSI, Cold Case, NFL, etc). Who can we complain to in order to fix this? Hopefully we won't hear "but you're getting audio, right?"

Budget_HT

11-07-05, 12:39 AM

A month or two back all shows that advertised DD5.1 had it. Now CBS is doing everything in 2.0, which sucks (CSI, Cold Case, NFL, etc). Who can we complain to in order to fix this? Hopefully we won't hear "but you're getting audio, right?"

At this point, I can't really remember if we ever really had DD 5.1 from KIRO-DT.

KOMO, KING, KCPQ, and some DirecTV HD channels yes.

I don't rememeber KIRO or KCTS, or any others for that matter.

Maybe someone younger than me has a better memory and can be sure about whether we have ever had DD 5.1 from KIRO-DT.

litzdog911

11-07-05, 01:33 AM

Yes, we certainly used to have DD5.1 audio from both KIRO-DT and their sister station, KSTW-DT (UPN). Both have been without DD5.1 for at least 2 or 3 months now. Does anybody know why?

codeyf

11-07-05, 09:07 AM

After reading about it so much, wife and I had audio problems last night on Komo during Desperate Housewives. Wen it first started, during the "recap" audio went completely out for a few seconds. Then it slowly came back real "jittery" and staticy sounding before it was audible. But, it was out of sync just a hair.

Also, I was really upset about not being able to receive Fox where I'm at, just south of Mill Creek on Bothell-Everett Hwy. But, are the Seahawks games even broadcast in HD? There is no mention during the game, and TitanTV says no. Yet I know you can get it in HD through Comcast. Can anyone confirm that the Seahawks are broadcasting in HD? Home games only perhaps?

Rico66

11-07-05, 12:25 PM

Can anyone confirm that the Seahawks are broadcasting in HD? Home games only perhaps?
Yes, Seahawks games are usually in HD. Yesterday's game was (and the previous one was as well).

codeyf

11-07-05, 12:35 PM

Yes, Seahawks games are usually in HD. Yesterday's game was (and the previous one was as well).

Bah, not really what I wanted to hear. Gonna have to adjust my mounting brackets to elevate my antenna a bit more (PITA) then.

quarque

11-07-05, 09:37 PM

At this point, I can't really remember if we ever really had DD 5.1 from KIRO-DT.

KOMO, KING, KCPQ, and some DirecTV HD channels yes.

I don't rememeber KIRO or KCTS, or any others for that matter.

Maybe someone younger than me has a better memory and can be sure about whether we have ever had DD 5.1 from KIRO-DT.
Well I'm not sure if I am younger than you Dave, but I DO remember watching the Eagles concert on KCTS in 5.1 and it was very good. I don't watch KIRO that much so I can't comment on 5.1 but I think I have heard 5.1 from them some time ago.

Budget_HT

11-07-05, 09:43 PM

quarque,

The Eagles Farewell 1 Tour concert was on NBC and KING-DT in June of this year. It was definitely broadcast in DD 5.1, even though the audio mix made little use of the center channel. I still have it on my HD TiVo. I have also recorded an excellent DVD copy from there, albeit in stereo audio since my stand-alone DVD recorder has no means for DD 5.1 input.

I have heard other concerts in DD 5.1 on HDNet, but I don't recall any Sound Stage or other concerts in DD 5.1 on KCTS.

Mike777

11-07-05, 11:06 PM

After reading about it so much, wife and I had audio problems last night on Komo during Desperate Housewives. Wen it first started, during the "recap" audio went completely out for a few seconds. Then it slowly came back real "jittery" and staticy sounding before it was audible. But, it was out of sync just a hair.

If you experience sound problems with digital HD, whether OTA or cable, try changing the channel and changing it right back. Sometimes this fixes the problem. Probably during commercials is the easiest place that won't bother your viewing of the show.

For instance, I was watching Comcast of the Seahawk game yesterday. All of a sudden the audio got really bad. I put up with this a few minutes, than flipped the channel back and forth. This worked.

I have these type of probems with both OTA and cable QAM tuning. This tip doesn't always solve the problem, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try.

snooby

11-07-05, 11:36 PM

seabay

11-08-05, 01:29 AM

I've got a DB8 antenna and get the other channels pretty well. KIRO is still a bear however. It gets really pixelly and I can't depend on it--especially during Sunday football games and that really is disappointing.

I live in Sammamish so I know reception is an issue, but like I said, I get everything else pretty good with a strong signal. Any suggestions as to what I could/should do?

Thanks.

codeyf

11-08-05, 02:22 AM

FYI for the people on this thread, these audio problems with KOMO occur both OTA and on Comcast. The issue is also being discussed in the Comcast Seattle thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=253006&page=190&pp=30)

Ah, good to know the folks paying for it have the same prob ;)

MNF came in great tonight tho! Will just have to work on getting Fox :)

robglasser

11-08-05, 11:02 AM

DrCrawn

11-08-05, 02:29 PM

FYI for the people on this thread, these audio problems with KOMO occur both OTA and on Comcast. The issue is also being discussed in the Comcast Seattle thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=253006&page=190&pp=30)

That problem has been around for as long as I can remember, periodically making an appearence.

KOMO also seemed to ditch the always on 5.1 system, favoring 3 channels. Can't say I'm not happy about that. ;)

quarque

11-08-05, 09:15 PM

litzdog911

11-08-05, 09:19 PM

For anyone else that watched Arrested Development and Prison Break last night. Did you seen fairly regular pixelization in the form of a small band that usually ran through the lower 3rd of the screen? Also, a few times the picture and audio would skip, though that only happened to me a few times.

Yes, I saw it too. It was repeatable when played back on my HR10-250 HD DirecTivo, so I'm pretty sure it was in the Fox source transmission.

snooby

11-08-05, 10:34 PM

Ah, good to know the folks paying for it have the same prob ;)

Speaking of paying for it, are people in this thread aware that you can now get local channels in HD on even basic analog cable packages (for some providers)? They aren't really publicizing this and the channels apparently change sometimes, but you can get them.

Budget_HT

11-08-05, 11:20 PM

It was on KCTS a few months before it was on KING. I don't think it was part of regular programming - some sort of special.

Sorry I missed that one--it would have been commercial-free.

radtek

11-09-05, 12:05 AM

Yes, I saw it too. It was repeatable when played back on my HR10-250 HD DirecTivo, so I'm pretty sure it was in the Fox source transmission.

It is still doing the transmission hiccups as I call them. Bones had it tonight and I Will see if it continues with House.

Budget_HT

11-09-05, 02:22 AM

Watching KOMO-DT 11 pm news, and I see their audio is back to DD 2.0 with the matrix surround flag on. On my A/V system, I get much better sounding audio from them this way than with the previous stereo only DD 2.0 without the flag.

I did not watch KOMO earlier, so I don't know when they actually made the change back.

traveezy

11-09-05, 03:02 AM

DanKurts

11-09-05, 10:13 PM

I am at 31310 54th Ave Nw. in Stanwood. The closest intersection is 300th St. NW and 52nd Ave. NW. I do have a lot of trees in the area, but I probably can get the antenna 30-40 feet high if need be. What would be my best bet for an antenna? Preamp needed?, etc.. Any channel would be great, but if all I can get is Fox, I'd be stoked because of the Seahawks games.
Any and all help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Will

Will
Seattle channels are going to be thin. There's a hilltop in the way, just west of lake Goodwin, at the intersection of 148th and 62ndNW. As I recall, there was a fair amount of trees there. Did a survey at the North end of the lake a few years back, remember it looked pretty thick. However, FOX looks pretty good. You slide around the west side of that hilltop. The only consideration is what's around you, within maybe a few blocks to the SW. It is 55 miles away, so you'll need a preamp. If you go 30ft up, and the trees are not too close, a 4228 antenna and 7775 preamp would be best shot at it. If you happen to get Seattle, all the better. If the trees are closer, a 4248 would be better. The mast needs to be very securely mounted and guy wired. They have a lot of windload.
Call if you have questions 206-794-3993.
Dan

quarque

11-09-05, 10:38 PM

I am at 31310 54th Ave Nw. in Stanwood. The closest intersection is 300th St. NW and 52nd Ave. NW. I do have a lot of trees in the area, but I probably can get the antenna 30-40 feet high if need be. What would be my best bet for an antenna? Preamp needed?, etc.. Any channel would be great, but if all I can get is Fox, I'd be stoked because of the Seahawks games.
Any and all help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Will
Welcome to the AVS forum. Well I don't understand how 300th & 52nd is your *nearest* intersection. :) (according to my map it would be 312th & 54th, unless you have a gigantic lot and you're way off the road.) Anyway, your line-of-sight to QA towers is a little marginal due to some hills about 10 miles south. But if you can get your antenna above 25 feet you should be OK. CH 13 should be no problem at all (go Seahawks!).

Now the trees are another issue. If they are really thick it might be a buzz kill. You will want a good high-gain antenna and preamp. Favorites around here are the Channel Master 4228, 4248 and the Antennas Direct 43XG, 91XG. A good preamp is the Channel Master 7775. Use RG6 cable or better.

SnoAq

11-09-05, 11:10 PM

I'm yet another newbie. I'm out at Snoqualmie Ridge, east of Issaquah. Closest intersection is Eagle Lake Dr. and Crestview. 98065. I have had no luck picking any OTA HD. Do I have any hope at all?

DanKurts

11-10-05, 01:00 AM

I'm yet another newbie. I'm out at Snoqualmie Ridge, east of Issaquah. Closest intersection is Eagle Lake Dr. and Crestview. 98065. I have had no luck picking any OTA HD. Do I have any hope at all?

SnoAq
It's a bad area. Mitchell Hill, 1200+ feet, is in the way, about 4 miles to the NW. Tried a few surveys out there, nothing. A few channels barely register, and look pretty bad, carrier wise. You will probably pick up KPAX, and a few religious stations from Tiger mt, but nothing from Seattle. You're also up so high, the incoming signals are almost dead level, so even the small hill over by Alice Lake gets in the way. Throw in some trees and it's a goner.
Sorry.
Dan

Budget_HT

11-13-05, 09:30 PM

I have a question for Kelly or Don at KOMO-DT:

Have you considered capturing sports highlights in HD (when available) for inclusion in your news/sportscasts? Or, perhaps widescreen 480i captured from the HD source?

This thought just came to mind while I was watching Seahawks highlights on your 5pm news today. They certainly paled compared to having just watched the game in HD.

Just curious!

Besides, the Seattle OTA folks and this thread seem to have slept in all weekend!

BTW, I am happy to see the "DD 2.0 + matrix surround flag" audio back again for non-DD5.1 programs. It sounds great on my system.

Bigfire

11-14-05, 05:04 AM

In reply to "Problem with KTWB?":

On Mercer Island, I had KTWB at close to full strength, and now it's virtually gone. When I noticed my programs recorded from it weren't playing correctly, I did a signal check. KTWB wasn't coming in at all, neither was KCPQ, the Fox station. I just did a check, and KCPQ is back up to full strength. I went over to a friend's house on Queen Anne Hill, and she wasn't getting WB at all either, whereas she was also getting a very usable signal before.

We're both using Windows Media Centers with a Dvico Fusion 5 card. What are other people seeing?

robglasser

11-14-05, 11:59 AM

codeyf

11-14-05, 12:47 PM

For, I think the 3rd week now, near the end of Desperate Housewives on KOMO the left and right channels start to give off a lot of static. I don't seem to hear it on the center channel. Basically anytime there is background music during the scene you really hear it, when they are talking without background music it goes away. Last night it appeared between the 2nd to last and last commerical breaks. The week before it was from the last commerical break through the previews to the next week's episode. The week before that I believe it was the same, but could be mistaken. I haven't noticed it during any other KOMO shows I watch (Lost and Alias). Anyone else getting this?

Yup, I caught it last night. It is only the background music, so I think you're dead on about it be left/right channels.

On a side note, got up on the roof on saturday. Repositioned my chimney mounts to get another 2-3 feet of height on my antenna. Tried pointing straight west as recommended earlier, and actually lost 3 channels! Pointed back S, slightly SW and ALL came in, including 13!!

Happy to say I watched my first Hawks game in HD yesterday :D

DrCrawn

11-14-05, 04:30 PM

rback

11-14-05, 04:46 PM

I still don't get KTWB. I'm using a DVico Fusion5 Gold PCI HDTV card.

The strange thing is that it used to work and I was receiving a very strong signal. Then a couple of weeks ago, I believe it started on Saturday, 10/29, I suddenly stopped receiving it. If I try to scan for the channel using either the Fusion software or MCE, no signal is found.

In the Fusion software, I can manually add the 25.1 KTWB broadcast channel, but it comes in VERY choppy with 0% signal strength according to the Fusion display.

I even called up KTWB and spoke to one of their engineers. But he insists that the tower is broadcasting ok and has received no other complaints.

This past weekend, I used the Fusion software to scan the cable channels to see which Digital Cable stations I get. On the Seattle - Comcast thread, someone had posted the list of cable channels. So I took a look at the KTWB-HD channel (81-2 or 812 on Fusion display) and it, too, was coming in pretty choppy. All the other digital cable channels I was able to tune into were fine. It was only KTWB that was causing problems.

So now I'm thinking that KTWB did something to their signal (which just gets retransmitted by Comcast) that somehow doesn't agree with the Fusion5 tuner.

DrCrawn

11-14-05, 04:52 PM

KTWB-DT comes in fine for me, both OTA and via MDM cable, and with my ATI HDTV Wonder pci card.

There are like 20 different formats of encoding though, so maybe KTWB uses one that your Fusion card doesn't like... I've seen this before with an older HDTV STB that a friend had.

Budget_HT

11-14-05, 08:10 PM

KOMO's news last night showed tons of Seahawks highlights in HD...I actually thought it was downright amazing what they were doing...They looked like ESPN HD Sportscenter for a moment :)

I only saw the end of the highlights, so I guess I missed the good part.

DanKurts

11-14-05, 11:02 PM

Yup, I caught it last night. It is only the background music, so I think you're dead on about it be left/right channels.

On a side note, got up on the roof on saturday. Repositioned my chimney mounts to get another 2-3 feet of height on my antenna. Tried pointing straight west as recommended earlier, and actually lost 3 channels! Pointed back S, slightly SW and ALL came in, including 13!!

Happy to say I watched my first Hawks game in HD yesterday :D

codeyf
That's motivation in action, getting up on the roof in the rain just to get the Hawks in HD!
Well done.
Dan

Bigfire

11-15-05, 12:30 AM

"I even called up KTWB and spoke to one of their engineers. But he insists that the tower is broadcasting ok and has received no other complaints."

Time for me to add my voice. I'll call them tomorrow. I wonder what could have changed that would make it not work with the Fusion card?

Budget_HT

11-15-05, 12:41 AM

I would ask if there have been any PSIP changes lately.

codeyf

11-15-05, 02:50 PM

codeyf
That's motivation in action, getting up on the roof in the rain just to get the Hawks in HD!
Well done.
Dan

I must confess. I cheated and took care of it early saturday before it started raining. Was actually sunny out :o

Smoke

11-15-05, 05:26 PM

masterdg22

11-15-05, 06:11 PM

DanKurts

11-16-05, 12:58 AM

I am trying to help set up my parent's ota for their new HDTV. They are currently using Dish. Any recommendations for the NW corner of Big Rock Rd and Odell road in Duvall would be greatly appreciated.

Smoke
If there were no trees for about a mile WSW, you would be fine. However, we know there's lots of 'em. How much will they interfere? Hard to say. If they have the new Dish receiver, forget the exact model number, they'll have a good chance at it. Seen them do some very good things with very ugly signals. If there are lots of trees, though, I would start with a 4248 and maybe a 7775 preamp. Every one I've done out there needs the preamp for channel 5. If there's nothing but pasture in that direction, then a 4221 might work, or a 4228 if you mount it on a sturdy mast.
Call if you have questions.
Dan

DanKurts

11-16-05, 01:15 AM

Hi I've read a lot of your responses, and was wondering if you could check to see if I could possibly receive OTA Digital Channels. My address is:
13810 284th CT NE
Duvall, WA 98019

I've tested a Terk HDTV-S antenna and got some channels, but didn't' mount it anywhere (just put it on the ground to see if I could get anything). Ideally I would like to put it in my attic. Any suggestions about what kind of antenna to get? solidsignal website suggested the db4 by antenna direct, but I've seen a lot of people use the channel master. Any help would be appreciated.

thanks,

David

David
I did the one at the bottom of the street, on the right, last house before Big Rock Rd. It's mounted on the back side of the house. Using a 4248 and 7775 we just got everything, as I recall. Not a slam dunk, though, quite touchy about direction and location. You are a little higher, about 20ft, but the signal is still just kissing the top of the hill across the valley. Mounting yours in the attic is going to seriously attenuate the signals, and can really chop them up. There are a few people, up by the Cedarcrest school on the hilltop, that have used their attics, but they're in an ideal location, and lucky. It wouldn't hurt to try, just don't be surprised at the results.
Dan

Hi Def Fan

11-16-05, 06:02 AM

Smoke

11-16-05, 10:38 AM

Smoke
If there were no trees for about a mile WSW, you would be fine. However, we know there's lots of 'em. How much will they interfere? Hard to say. If they have the new Dish receiver, forget the exact model number, they'll have a good chance at it. Seen them do some very good things with very ugly signals. If there are lots of trees, though, I would start with a 4248 and maybe a 7775 preamp. Every one I've done out there needs the preamp for channel 5. If there's nothing but pasture in that direction, then a 4221 might work, or a 4228 if you mount it on a sturdy mast.
Call if you have questions.
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for your prompt reply. I had already picked up a 4228. I'll try a west side chimney mount.
Scot

Kelly From KOMO

11-16-05, 06:14 PM

keithaxis

11-16-05, 06:18 PM

Kelly, thank you very much for the time with this. My issues were never the drop out but more the terrible sound when you had 2 channel dolby digital going (this was not an issue with programs that were sending 5.1)..now you seem to have it back to where I can use prologic II..it is interesting though how you send left, center and right channel info..I have never seen this before, usually when I am in prologic mode I only get left and right front channel with my receiver then dividing up to the seperate channels...anyway, much improvement with KOMO audio recently...now if you could just get the guy/gal to not forget to switch back to HD after a commercial, which seems to happen almost once an evening...

Keith from Buckley.....

ExGeekOps

11-16-05, 06:30 PM

.. So, what do you think? Have any of you noticed the change since Monday?

Boston Legal was without any problems for the entire episode last night. I've been avoiding KOMO HD broadcasts for months now because of unwatchable dropouts. I'm really glad you guys have been working on it. Cross fingers! :)

PS-The sound level was noticably higher than the other locals last night. Nothing a turn of the knob couldn't fix.

masterdg22

11-16-05, 06:40 PM

Budget_HT

11-16-05, 07:55 PM

Kelly,

All sounds good on KOMO-DT from here.

Thanks to you and your team for sticking with this until it finally works.

Budget_HT

11-16-05, 08:06 PM

... it is interesting though how you send left, center and right channel info..I have never seen this before, usually when I am in prologic mode I only get left and right front channel with my receiver then dividing up to the seperate channels...
Keith from Buckley.....

Actually, for non DD 5.1 programs, KOMO-DT is broadcasting DD 2.0 stereo, but in a special mode where they turn on a flag in the PSIP data that tells your A/V receiver (if fed by digital audio from your tuner) to automatically invoke the Dolby Pro Logic II mode that you would otherwise have turned on manually.

This is a standard supported by Dolby digital and ATSC digital TV broadcasting, and it is the recommended mode for programs whose source audio is 2-channel stereo with matrix-encoded surround (= Dolby Pro Logic II).

NBC sends this same flag with their DD 2.0 audio for non-DD 5.1 programs. We can hear it on network programs (non-DD 5.1) on KING-DT. But KING-DT local programs (and local commercial breaks, even within a DD 5.1 program) are broadcast in DD 2.0 without the matrix surround flag. To get DPL II surround and center channel from these non-flagged DD 2.0 sources, we have to manually set our A/V receivers for DPL II.

Now we need to convince other program providers/broadcasters to understand and use the same DD 2.0 + matrix surround flag standards to give us "no-brainer" best-available audio without the viewer/listener having to change settings on their A/V receiver every time they change channels or the programs change between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1 and back to DD 2.0.

DanKurts

11-16-05, 10:44 PM

Hey guys, I live just SE of the Lower Queene Anne area, and am in a north facing apt (7th floor) which has a big picture window in the living room. I can see the top halves of the channel 4, 5 & 7 transmitters above the KOMO TV station, just to the right of the Space Needle.

Do you think such a proximity would allow me to get at least these 3 station's HD signals fairly well, or might the sigmal either shoot over the top of me, or have too much multipath reflection off of the KOMO roof satellite dishes and the Space Needle?

I know of and have talked to "Dan The Antenna Man", whom Magnolia Hi Fi told me about, but he's a very busy guy lately, and I'm trying to keep this purchase as affordable as possible. I'm leaning towards getting the Sony KD-30XS955 and using a decent little tabletop antenna aimed out the window.

BTW, Dan seemed to think I'd likely get at least some reception, but cannot of course be sure without doing the signal testing. The only one in my building I know of that has a Hi Def set uses Millenium's HD cable signal, but I don't want cable, just the air transmissions.

Hi Def Fan
Don't remember the exact conversation, but if you can see the tower tops, just use the the small Radio Shack double bow tie

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=&kw=uhf+antennas&parentPage=search

model 15-624, $15
It is not as fussy about direction. Just point it out the window and see what happens. If it gets fussy, try tilting it backwards, as much as 45 degrees, and see what happens. If it's not working, at least you can return it. As for the other channels, you'll only know by trying. You will probably have to turn it around quite a bit for the other channels.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

DanKurts

11-16-05, 10:59 PM

Dan, Is there a reason you went with that antenna vs one of those square ones by channel master or antenna direct? Just wondering because the one my neighbor put up is pretty big (6' long), and I'm sure I'll have some selling to do on the idea with my wife. Regardless, thanks for the suggestion. I'll also confirm with my neighbor to see if he is happy with his antenna and may after all, purchase the same model.

thanks,

David

David
The reason was, in the Duvall area, where the hilltop in the distance was a factor, that's what worked. Also, the bow tie types, like the 4228/4221, just didn't work well enough there. The 4248 does a better job than the other yagi brands I've tried when out in the boondocks. I did use a smaller yagi on a few houses higher on the hill and further north, where the hilltop in the distance wasn't a factor. If you get the model of antenna your neighbor is using, I can tell you if I've tried it and how it worked there.
Bottom line is whatever works, and keeps her happy, too!
Dan

quarque

11-16-05, 11:04 PM

Dave - thanks for the tutorial on audio modes. It is confusing to the uninitiated.

Kelly - audio has been fine. Thanks for all the efforts and your AVS interactions.

Hi Def Fan

11-17-05, 12:55 AM

...It is not as fussy about direction. Just point it out the window and see what happens. If it gets fussy, try tilting it backwards, as much as 45 degrees, and see what happens.Thanks Dan, that's a cheap fix, if it will work.

I took some rough declination readings from my desktop to the tops of the towers, and it seems to be roughly a 15 degree angle. There appears to be no tilt adjustment on that antenna, but I'm sure it would bend at least that far.

It looks like there's also no attenuation adjustment on that unit, is attenuation not needed on that type of antenna?

One other thing I forgot to mention, the only place I have useable space to place the antenna is within a foot or two from my picture window, which has venetian blinds that are the old vinyl coated aluminum kind.

Would I need to louver or worse yet raise them while watching HD signals? Keeping them lowered and shut is preferable for lighting and heating reasons.

Budget_HT

11-17-05, 01:30 AM

I just checked my recording in progress of CSI-NY and noticed that KIRO-DT is broadcasting in DD 5.1 audio (OTA, recording on an HR-10-250 HD TiVo) instead of DD 2.0 stereo.

At first it sounded like true DD 5.1, but now it sounds more artificial. Maybe that is the intended effect of the program. I get voices in center channel but echos of voices in left and right channels.

Hopefully it is the real thing.

DanKurts

11-17-05, 02:38 AM

Thanks Dan, that's a cheap fix, if it will work.

I took some rough declination readings from my desktop to the tops of the towers, and it seems to be roughly a 15 degree angle. There appears to be no tilt adjustment on that antenna, but I'm sure it would bend at least that far.

It looks like there's also no attenuation adjustment on that unit, is attenuation not needed on that type of antenna?

One other thing I forgot to mention, the only place I have useable space to place the antenna is within a foot or two from my picture window, which has venetian blinds that are the old vinyl coated aluminum kind.

Would I need to louver or worse yet raise them while watching HD signals? Keeping them lowered and shut is preferable for lighting and heating reasons.

Hi Def Fan
No adjusment, but you can fake it. It's really small, so what ever works. Just don't use metal, like coat hangers, to make a stand. Plastic, cardboard, 2X4's, etc. It should be between the blinds and window, if possible, but you're so close, it might just work anyway. Metal will block signal, but who knows. Try 'em up and down. Experiment. Angle of tilt could be more or less. Nothing's sacred. I doubt if you'll overload it, so don't worry about attenuation. You could pick up an adjustable attenuator at RatShack while you're there, take it back if not needed.
Patience will win out.
Dan

masterdg22

11-17-05, 01:03 PM

Dan-

Where do you suggest purchasing the 3023/4248?

robglasser

11-17-05, 02:21 PM

barclay

11-17-05, 02:33 PM

Lost sounded great last night. No issues I noticed.

I seemed to notice a 2-4 second period of silence upon return from a commercial break.

Not sure if it was there for dramatic purposes, something with my setup, or a problem with the transmission though.

robglasser

11-17-05, 03:25 PM

I seemed to notice a 2-4 second period of silence upon return from a commercial break.

Not sure if it was there for dramatic purposes, something with my setup, or a problem with the transmission though.

I thought it might be an issue too, but I'm 99% sure it was the show. Anytime they showed a new Day number between scenes/commericals they'd kill audio while they had the day number up then start it back up. Pretty sure that was in the show, not the KOMO audio equipment.

DrCrawn

11-17-05, 03:26 PM

Okay KOMO HD Viewers.. I'm probably jinxing myself, but after some firmware upgrades, the audio "motorboating" and drop-outs during transition between HD and local breaks seems to have subsided or been completely eliminated. I watched MNF, and Boston Legal on my home OTA set up and had no audio issues. In fact, the transitions seemed to be glitch free.

As is with this business no news is good news, or at least I noticed the cranky factor toward KOMO seems to have subsided on this site, and have noticed no negative technical posts since Sunday night. So, what do you think? Have any of you noticed the change since Monday?

Best Regards,

Kelly Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
KOMO TV4 KOMO-DT
Fisher Radio Seattle
KVI, KOMO, KPLZ-FM

LOL, "motorboating" that is possibly the best description of that particular sound problem I've heard. Hilarious. Dead on too. :)

Haven't had any problems from KOMO in a long time personally, although I can honestly say I don't watch much anymore. I've basically dropped local news entirely, and I watch evening news on CBS now to support the old timer.

I did watch MNF and According to Jim this week, and both were flawless, although the switch was flipped a little late for MNF.

I also noticed that your now using some nifty side bars on the commercials for KOMO4 News, when the shots are 4:3. I loved seeing that. If KOMO would use the sidebars on all 4:3 material, that would be spectacular.

Finally, thanks to everyone at KOMO for being so conscious of your viewers, even us 5% ers. We really do appreciate you :) Anytime I reference a local Seattle DTV channel to a friend, I talk about KOMO and all the cool things you guys do to roll along the DTV wheel. I don't know if there is a local out there more dedicated to this new technology that we all love so much! Thumbs up!

edit: just realized this was my 1000th post! An a postive one too!

DanKurts

11-17-05, 10:37 PM

Dan-

Where do you suggest purchasing the 3023/4248?

masterdg22
I buy from a wholesaler, but have heard people use Stark and were treated okay.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
There may be some other suggestions back a few pages on this thread.
The 3023 is NOT the same as the 4248. Looks close, no cigar. Tested in the field, those funny diamond shaped wings on the 4248 do work.
Dan

ixoye

11-18-05, 03:35 PM

Smoke
If there were no trees for about a mile WSW, you would be fine. However, we know there's lots of 'em. How much will they interfere? Hard to say. If they have the new Dish receiver, forget the exact model number, they'll have a good chance at it. Seen them do some very good things with very ugly signals. If there are lots of trees, though, I would start with a 4248 and maybe a 7775 preamp. Every one I've done out there needs the preamp for channel 5. If there's nothing but pasture in that direction, then a 4221 might work, or a 4228 if you mount it on a sturdy mast.
Call if you have questions.
Dan

Dan, any ideas how much luck I will have for being lower than 275th? I am in the new subdivision off of Bruett and would love to put up an antenna. Suggestions? Attic preferrably.

Jon

brianl0646

11-18-05, 04:59 PM

I live in the 2200 block of NE 177th. I just bought my first HD TV a few days ago. I installed a Terk HDTVo on my chimney. To my amazement I get everything great (4.1,5.1,7.1,9.1,11.1,16.1,22.1 etc..) except Q13. My antenna is facing about 183 degrees. Is the FOX transmitter in a different direction? Do I need to get a second antenna? Is there a different antenna anyone would recommend that would get everything including FOX on one antenna? I bought the Terk because it was what the store I bought the TV had, though looking at what other antennas cost (channel master etc..) it seems rather pricey at $95. But I guess if it works thats all that matters. Any advice here would be appreciated.

Brian

quarque

11-18-05, 10:52 PM

I live at 2211 NE 177th. I just bought my first HD TV a few days ago. I installed a Terk HDTVo on my chimney. To my amazement I get everything great (4.1,5.1,7.1,9.1,11.1,16.1,22.1 etc..) except Q13. My antenna is facing about 183 degrees. Is the FOX transmitter in a different direction? Do I need to get a second antenna? Is there a different antenna anyone would recommend that would get everything including FOX on one antenna? I bought the Terk because it was what the store I bought the TV had, though looking at what other antennas cost (channel master etc..) it seems rather pricey at $95. But I guess if it works thats all that matters. Any advice here would be appreciated.

Brian
Brian - the CH 13 tower is west of Bremerton on Gold Mtn. From your house that is exactly SW. Most antennas can usually pick it up even being 45 degrees off-axis. You can try rotating your Terk more SW and see if you can get it without losing the others. If you can't get them all I'd try to get your money back because $95 is way too much to spend given your location. Your best bets for a new antenna would be the Channel Master 4221/3021 or the Radio Shack 15-2160. The RS unit is more directional and would be a second choice to the CM unit but it is cheaper and easier to buy/return.

Good luck and keep us posted.

brianl0646

11-19-05, 02:09 AM

Brian - the CH 13 tower is west of Bremerton on Gold Mtn. From your house that is exactly SW. Most antennas can usually pick it up even being 45 degrees off-axis. You can try rotating your Terk more SW and see if you can get it without losing the others. If you can't get them all I'd try to get your money back because $95 is way too much to spend given your location. Your best bets for a new antenna would be the Channel Master 4221/3021 or the Radio Shack 15-2160. The RS unit is more directional and would be a second choice to the CM unit but it is cheaper and easier to buy/return.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thank you for the advice, I will try rotating my antenna. My yard is heavily wooded, the reason I pointed the antenna where I did was because that is the only clear shot. SW is straight on into a tree. Will that have a big effect on my reception?

Brian

DanKurts

11-19-05, 02:20 AM

Dan, any ideas how much luck I will have for being lower than 275th? I am in the new subdivision off of Bruett and would love to put up an antenna. Suggestions? Attic preferrably.

Jon
Not familiar with that location. What's the cross streets closest to you ? (don't give exact address!)
Dan

DanKurts

11-19-05, 02:33 AM

Thank you for the advice, I will try rotating my antenna. My yard is heavily wooded, the reason I pointed the antenna where I did was because that is the only clear shot. SW is straight on into a tree. Will that have a big effect on my reception?

Brian
Not necessarily. I've been fooled many times when the best signal comes from aiming right at a tree! Won't hurt to try. If it doesn't work, try relocating the antenna to one of the other corners of the chimney. Moving it just a foot or two in any direction can make all the difference, even higher or lower. Sometimes you can do better by going under the tree canopy.
If it still doesn't work, I second what quarque said, the 4221 might just do it, second choice 15-2160, though it might be too directional for all channels.
Dan

DanKurts

11-19-05, 03:07 AM

Thought I would post some interesting reception results from the latest LG DLP televison, LG62SX4D. This has a built in HD tuner.
Did an install for a customer that had an attic antenna, and was getting fairly good results, surprisingly. He wanted to try and get all the channels. Went in the attic, measured with meter, all channels looked awful, yet it was locking on some. Put a 4221 in the attic. (yes, I do put them there, when there's no other choice!) Looked better, but still shaky. A "normal" hd receiver would have locked on maybe 4 channels, at best. This critter got all but ch13! And KONG was coming in on vapors, yet locked about 98% of the time.
It's been a while since I've seen one like that. It's the only new LG set I've worked with this year, so can't say they will all do that, but it's encouraging. Maybe this generation of their decoders will be able to work with some of the tougher locations.
Not real impressed with the picture. Doesn't have the good TI DLP chip I saw at CES last January, just uses a color wheel.
BUT..... maybe they will put that tuner in something better. Tried to find out more info on their web site, not much there in detail about the tuner.
In any case, there's hope for those in the tough locations.
Dan

ixoye

11-19-05, 11:26 AM

Not familiar with that location. What's the cross streets closest to you ? (don't give exact address!)
Dan

You can see my house from the park @ 275th and 150th.

-Jon

DanKurts

11-19-05, 12:14 PM

You can see my house from the park @ 275th and 150th.

-Jon

Jon
You're in a good spot for Duvall, but the hill across the valley is going to be the problem. I have done jobs around you, so it's got a good chance for everything. That's the key word, everything. Sometimes one or two channels are really tough. Not always the same ones, either. Just have to try some antennas and see what gives. Call if you have questions. Got to head out.
Dan
206-794-3993

brianl0646

11-21-05, 12:46 AM

tuquet

11-21-05, 12:42 PM

robglasser

11-21-05, 12:53 PM

Early 3rd quarter I noticed that Fox used their SD camera for the main action while the close-up cameras were HD. I thought it was odd but after a while they did have it back on HD. Wonder if anyone saw the same thing or I had one too many drinks?

It wasn't the drinks. I noticed the same thing too and unfortunetly had not had the opportunity to have a drink yet ;)

ExGeekOps

11-21-05, 02:20 PM

Okay KOMO HD Viewers.. I'm probably jinxing myself, but after some firmware upgrades, the audio "motorboating" and drop-outs during transition between HD and local breaks seems to have subsided or been ...ve subsided on this site, and have noticed no negative technical posts since Sunday night. So, what do you think? Have any of you noticed the change since Monday?

Best Regards,

Kelly Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
KOMO TV4 KOMO-DT
Fisher Radio Seattle
KVI, KOMO, KPLZ-FM

What a difference a week makes. I'll check MNF tonight but when I tuned in Sunday afternoon (4-6ish) I got no signal, intermittant and frequent dropouts at differnt times. :mad: Local programming KOMO news was what was on. Sound level is still way higher than other dig. channels. What happened?

DrCrawn

11-21-05, 05:38 PM

Rico66

11-21-05, 08:54 PM

most of the Hawks Niners game looked SD to me....
You mean how the Seahawks played or the picture?

I watched most of the game (with the exception of the 3rd quarter...) and it looked pretty HD to me.

Mike777

11-21-05, 11:07 PM

Early 3rd quarter I noticed that Fox used their SD camera for the main action while the close-up cameras were HD. I thought it was odd but after a while they did have it back on HD. Wonder if anyone saw the same thing or I had one too many drinks?

Same exact thing with the Comcast cable feed. Fortunately they switched back to full HD. By the way, the game looked beautiful with the sunlight and very different colored uniforms. I always like watching a game with dramatically different team colors. I was hoping the game would be decided earlier because I wanted to catch a 4PM movie, but I had to stick around until the end.

tuquet

11-22-05, 10:11 AM

So definitely it was not the drinks. It's kind of ironic that we watched a bad game until the last minute, but I am sure we would take the outcome any day.

Rico66

11-22-05, 12:30 PM

tuquet

11-22-05, 12:39 PM

While watching the Monday Night game yesterday on KOMO I noticed that the audio level was match higher (louder) compared to other stations. I didn't watch anything but the game, so I'm not sure whether KOMO is generally louder now, but the sound level during the game was pretty loud (sounded pretty good to me). Did anybody else notice that?Per my experience, KOMO has always been loud, sometimes unbearable but most of the time good. KIRO, on the other hand, is usually soft, sometimes too soft.

DrCrawn

11-22-05, 02:56 PM

Rico66

11-22-05, 04:59 PM

All the channels seem the same to me audio level wise.

On a related note, KIRO-DT is now 5.1 again and according to my professionally calibrated ears, it seems that they are actually doing a true discrete 5.1 feed now unlike before.
Strange, I will check this again tonite. When I noticed this yesterday all the others were kind of the same level, but MNF was way louder. And it was definetly louder as in the past.
And since we're again talking about the 5.1 stuff, the optimal solution would obviously be, if stations would turn on the 5.1 only for actual 5.1 material and switch back to 2.0 otherwise (e.g for commercials)

robglasser

11-22-05, 05:51 PM

Strange, I will check this again tonite. When I noticed this yesterday all the others were kind of the same level, but MNF was way louder. And it was definetly louder as in the past.
And since we're again talking about the 5.1 stuff, the optimal solution would obviously be, if stations would turn on the 5.1 only for actual 5.1 material and switch back to 2.0 otherwise (e.g for commercials)

KOMO is much louder than it used to be, and louder than any other station. If this is the only issue that remains with KOMO HDTV I can live with it forever. Doesn't take much to simply turn the volume down a bit when I tune to the station. Beats the heck of out audio and video problems.

iasm

11-22-05, 11:24 PM

Llamas

11-23-05, 02:15 AM

DanKurts

11-23-05, 02:55 AM

hello
I am at sw 160th and 21 sw in burien.I just got my new tv and didn't have an antenna so i hooked a small piece of wire to the stb and got komo.I think my location is good since i am at the top of the bluff over the sound and pretty high.My question is since the downtown towers are somewhat north and fox is west will i have problem getting both?I can get wingard thru work wholesale. Should i just get a large unit or will smaller units work as well?
Thanks

iasm
Use the PR-4400
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-4400.pdf
Point it basically North, and see what happens. Aiming is not real critical. Just get it up above the trees or looking past them.
Dan

DanKurts

11-23-05, 03:05 AM

I'm moving into a daylight basement unit of a triplex in the vicinity of 11th and E John St in Seattle. I want to determine whether I've got a decent chance of tuning my HD OTA, or if I should save myself the aggravation, and go with cable. My antenna options will likely be limited, since it's an apartment rather than a home that I own.

Thanks,

--Mike
Llamas
It's going to be tough. You're right under chan's 9, 11 & 22. The noise and strong signals are going to splatter off everything in your room. Could get real wierd. If the windows face west, you might have a chance at 4, 5, 7, 13 & 16. This is one where you might want try a Silver Sensor. Be sure to get the one that doesn't have a built in amplifier. It's small enough that you could move it around and see what gives. Don't be surprised if you have to move it around to a different spot for each channel.
If you can't get anything, take the antenna back and go cable.
Dan

bshaf

11-23-05, 02:23 PM

w00tdude

11-23-05, 04:47 PM

w00tdude

11-23-05, 08:21 PM

quarque

11-23-05, 09:36 PM

I think I have a pretty unique situation, and I was wondering if I could get some help. I am located on the East side of Queen Anne hill off of Dexter and Galer, and Im in a 6 story apartment building and im on the second floor. I set up my UHF antenna and I get all of the channel from Capital Hill just fine, but NOTHING from the Queen Anne towers. I was talking to someone I work with who think I may be getting too much signal and suggests maybe try just plugging in a bear wire about a foot long and seeing if I get anything. What do you guys think??
Your problem is that the towers are broadcasting over your head. Most of the signal you'd get would be from reflections. So anything might work. You might want to pick up a variable attenuator from Radio Shack (15-678 $10).

What antenna are your currently using? What is your receiver?

litzdog911

11-24-05, 03:38 AM

DanKurts

11-24-05, 04:19 AM

I think I have a pretty unique situation, and I was wondering if I could get some help. I am located on the East side of Queen Anne hill off of Dexter and Galer, and Im in a 6 story apartment building and im on the second floor. I set up my UHF antenna and I get all of the channel from Capital Hill just fine, but NOTHING from the Queen Anne towers. I was talking to someone I work with who think I may be getting too much signal and suggests maybe try just plugging in a bear wire about a foot long and seeing if I get anything. What do you guys think??

bshaf
Like quarque said, you're under the antennas signals. You're not going to get over loaded with signal there, just lots of reflections, basically unusable. What ever you try for an antenna, Silver Sensor, Radio Shack bow tie type (NON amplified), or similar, make sure you can take it back.
If you were able to get the antenna outside and point it up the hill, it might help some, but I've usually found that side of the hill to be pretty bad, even for analog.
Dan

DanKurts

11-24-05, 04:32 AM

I just picked up a Samsung SIR-T160 off ebay for $50 and went to RadioShack and got the antenna with the following description:

"Experience sharper HDTV picture quality with three amplifier gains (19dB, 15dB and 10dB), 330° rotation and 12 reception directions. The LCD displays the memory numbers, gain settings and direction for easy reference. The remote control works indoors or outdoors, up to 50 feet away."

I plugged it all in and amazingly enough I was able to get 5,7,9,11,13,16,22,33
however KOMO-4 doesn't ever get picked up when I scan for channels.

The signal strength on all the others is in the 90+% range, however the
entertainment center is in the basement and we have a couple of large
cedar trees next door. As I walk around the basement, some of the channels
will pixelate. (5, 7 and 11)

I would really like to be able to watch Lost in HD -- are there any suggestions
on how to go about pulling in KOMO-4? (I can see all 3 towers on QA Hill from
my living room upstairs).

Thanks!
--Wayne

Wayne
You may be in the dreaded dead spot for KOMO. What are your cross streets?
I found it to be from Totem Fish house up the hill as far as 65th. It's not everywhere, have one at 72nd and 35th working. For a test, see if you can get the antenna outside or at the window where you can see the towers. Be sure to turn off the amplifier in the antenna, or just unplug the power supply for it.
It's not that the signal is gone, just that it's of a type your tuner can't handle. Once you're in that area, nothing seems to work, and I've tried many different types.
The window test will tell.
Dan

w00tdude

11-24-05, 10:26 AM

Wayne
You may be in the dreaded dead spot for KOMO. What are your cross streets?
I found it to be from Totem Fish house up the hill as far as 65th. It's not everywhere, have one at 72nd and 35th working. For a test, see if you can get the antenna outside or at the window where you can see the towers. Be sure to turn off the amplifier in the antenna, or just unplug the power supply for it.
It's not that the signal is gone, just that it's of a type your tuner can't handle. Once you're in that area, nothing seems to work, and I've tried many different types.
The window test will tell.
Dan

Hi Dan,
I put the antenna on top of my TV near the window and turned the rotor thru
all of it's positions (ending up at the last one of course). I was actually able to get
a great signal at 73rd and 32nd. Of course with the antenna in this position and
location I cannot pick up channel 11 anymore, but I rarely watch UPN so that is
not a big deal. I still had bad audio drop outs on KOMO 4, but from what I have
read on the forums that seems to be at the source and not my reciever.

Thanks for the advice it worked well!

--Wayne

DrCrawn

11-25-05, 01:27 AM

KOMO drops the sound every time they do a KOMO4 News spot before going back to Finding Nemo tonight. About 10-15 seconds of no audio.

DrCrawn

11-25-05, 02:00 AM

Ok, sorry for the double post, but I just had to stress that these are the worst audio dropouts I have I ever heard out of KOMO-DT. Absolutely awful. :(

The sound is crackling too, (not the motorboating).

Kelly From KOMO

11-25-05, 01:45 PM

I'm getting DD5.1 audio dropouts again on KOMO's ABC network programs with my HR10-250 HD DirecTV DVR. They only seem to happen when coming out of commericial breaks, just as the network program is switched in. For the past few weeks I've had no issues with KOMO's ABC network audio. Now the problem seems to have returned.

After doing some checking around, it appears there was a bit of miscommunication or misunderstanding with our operations folks that may have caused the audio drop-outs. We had recently instituted a procedure of switching KOMO-DT into 5.1 mode during prime-time programming and leaving it there, then back to Stereo otherwise, rather than scheduling the computer to switch back and forth going into, and coming out of local breaks.

Our research has shown that some receivers and cable boxes appear to mute for several seconds then have to re-sync when they detect a change of Dolby modes. In order to reduce the amount of muting, we have chosen to reduce the number of times we switch between modes.

I sent out a memo today to remind the operators to do the current and correct procedure.

Best Regards,

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
Fisher Broadcasting
KOMO TV4-DT
Fisher Radio Seattle
KOMO 1000/KVI/KLPZ-FM

forum junkie

11-25-05, 01:53 PM

Kelly From KOMO

11-25-05, 02:09 PM

Hi Kelly,
A question for those of us out in Yelm where signal strength can be a problem. When things like the heavy fog this last week hit the signal is all but lost. Actually it go's from great to gone and back every 10 to 15 min. Is there a chance that power on the digital signals will be raised in the near future ?

The only change I would anticipate by 2009 will be the relocation of the transmit antennas to the top of the existing towers, rather then being side mounted on the towers. Moving the antennas should reduce or eliminate distortion of the signals due to the tower steel creating pattern distortion. All larger market stations are already required to be operating at their maximum authorized facilities, as is KOMO.

I suspect the changes in signal quality you are experiencing are caused by reflections or "multipath" and not because of signal level issues. I know at my apartment, my DTV OTA reliability vary depending on weather in the form of rain or fog. Usually just repositioning the antenna a few degrees corrects the problem.

Remember, the signal strength on your receiver is not actually signal level, but signal quality, (based on bit errors). Multipath will frequently be seen as varying signal level on your signal meter.

Good Luck,

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering/IT
Fisher Broadcasting
KOMO TV4-DT
Fisher Radio Seattle
KOMO 1000/KVI/KPLZ-FM

litzdog911

11-25-05, 03:58 PM

Thanks, Kelly! KOMO's dedication to its HDTV viewers continues to impress me!

brianl0646

11-29-05, 03:00 AM

Llamas

11-29-05, 05:10 AM

Llamas
It's going to be tough. You're right under chan's 9, 11 & 22. The noise and strong signals are going to splatter off everything in your room. Could get real wierd. If the windows face west, you might have a chance at 4, 5, 7, 13 & 16. This is one where you might want try a Silver Sensor. Be sure to get the one that doesn't have a built in amplifier. It's small enough that you could move it around and see what gives. Don't be surprised if you have to move it around to a different spot for each channel.
If you can't get anything, take the antenna back and go cable.
Dan
I snuck over to the new place tonight with a friend's old Samsung HD tuner, and LCD monitor, and a Radio Shack 15-624 double bowtie UHF antenna. And no matching transformer. Augh! After a trip to Fred Meyer (not much open at 11pm), I was up and running.

I was able to get reception from all the area stations (the tuner has an analog signal strength meter, so I don't have % numbers), but not all from a single antenna orientation. I could get all of them with the union of two antenna positions, but I want to be able to set the antenna orientation and leave it, to support unattended recording.

So, here are some more questions:

1. If I run multiple HD tuners in a SageTV, MCE2005, HD-DirecTivo system, can I hook each up to a different antenna to cover different sets of freqs?
2. I can probably mount an external antenna on the exterior wall, where there's currently a D* dish. Does that improve my situation, or will I still be hosed by the directional nature of the signal and multipath issues?
3. Silver sensor. Same question as I have with the external antenna. And where can I buy one locally?
4. Omnidirectional antenna?

Thanks again,

--Mike

DanKurts

11-30-05, 01:17 AM

I snuck over to the new place tonight with a friend's old Samsung HD tuner, and LCD monitor, and a Radio Shack 15-624 double bowtie UHF antenna. And no matching transformer. Augh! After a trip to Fred Meyer (not much open at 11pm), I was up and running.

I was able to get reception from all the area stations (the tuner has an analog signal strength meter, so I don't have % numbers), but not all from a single antenna orientation. I could get all of them with the union of two antenna positions, but I want to be able to set the antenna orientation and leave it, to support unattended recording.

So, here are some more questions:

1. If I run multiple HD tuners in a SageTV, MCE2005, HD-DirecTivo system, can I hook each up to a different antenna to cover different sets of freqs?
2. I can probably mount an external antenna on the exterior wall, where there's currently a D* dish. Does that improve my situation, or will I still be hosed by the directional nature of the signal and multipath issues?
3. Silver sensor. Same question as I have with the external antenna. And where can I buy one locally?
4. Omnidirectional antenna?

Thanks again,

--Mike

Mike
A south external wall might work with the 15-2160 pointed west or slightly north of west. You'll be picking up 9-11-22 on the back side, but you're so close, it might work okay. Omnidirectional most likely won't work. You probably could get several tuners and antenna combos and set them up for specific channels. Nothing wrong technically, just gets to be fun switching devices with channels with monitor/audio receiver inputs.
You might also want to play with an attenuator, available at RatShack. Signals going to get pretty strong on some channels. Start with the most attenuation and then dial it back to zero. It might also vary with channel.
As I mentioned earlier, it's a tough location, because of two main directions, almost 180 degrees of each other, and then being so slose. Patience and experimentation will win out.

Dan

DanKurts

11-30-05, 01:31 AM

I live on NE 177th right above Lake Forest Park in North City. I installed my antenna 2 weeks ago and was getting all the HD channels great except for 13 which I was able to get for 2 days. A few days ago 11 dropped out even though the signal strength is between 60 and 72. 22 is now intermittent to bad with signal strength at around 65. Today I can't get 7 even though signal strength is at 82 which is higher then it was when I was getting it fine. Does this seem normal? Is there an issue with my TV? I was using a terk antenna then switched to the radio shack 15-2160 and my reception got better. However now it is bad even though the signal seems to be fine. Any ideas?

Brian

Brian
If you didn't seal up the balun, sometimes they'll get water inside. Yeah, they're supposed to made for outdoors, but..... Pick up a new outdoor type balun, seal it with waterproof tape. On the end where the two 300 ohm wires go in, make sure it's pointed at a small downward angle, and the wires make a drip loop. Then water will not run directly in the ends, and if any moisture condensates inside, it will simply run out. The tape will seal the rest. Of course, check the two wingnuts where the balun attaches to make sure they're tight, and be sure the two wires have not gotten twisted up together. If that's not the trouble, then either the antenna moved or something is now in your path, like a broken tree limb. Of course, you may also have a dying receiver, but I doubt it.
The numbers are NOT signal strength, even though it says that. It's signal to noise ratio. Think signal quality. You could be actually getting plenty of signal, like channel 7, but if it's all chopped up by the trees in your area it may not be able to lock on to it. Try another mounting location. Just a foot away in any direction, including higher or lower, can make all the difference.
Dan

brianl0646

12-01-05, 03:01 AM

Brian
If you didn't seal up the balun, sometimes they'll get water inside. Yeah, they're supposed to made for outdoors, but..... Pick up a new outdoor type balun, seal it with waterproof tape. On the end where the two 300 ohm wires go in, make sure it's pointed at a small downward angle, and the wires make a drip loop. Then water will not run directly in the ends, and if any moisture condensates inside, it will simply run out. The tape will seal the rest. Of course, check the two wingnuts where the balun attaches to make sure they're tight, and be sure the two wires have not gotten twisted up together. If that's not the trouble, then either the antenna moved or something is now in your path, like a broken tree limb. Of course, you may also have a dying receiver, but I doubt it.
The numbers are NOT signal strength, even though it says that. It's signal to noise ratio. Think signal quality. You could be actually getting plenty of signal, like channel 7, but if it's all chopped up by the trees in your area it may not be able to lock on to it. Try another mounting location. Just a foot away in any direction, including higher or lower, can make all the difference.
Dan

I ran the autoprogram on my TV (Panasonic TH-42PX50U) and those channels came in fine after that, and it has been fine since then. So maybe it was an issue with my TV. Should that be of concern?

brian

DanKurts

12-02-05, 01:47 AM

I ran the autoprogram on my TV (Panasonic TH-42PX50U) and those channels came in fine after that, and it has been fine since then. So maybe it was an issue with my TV. Should that be of concern?

brian

brian
Yup.
Electronics don't heal themselves. Call Panasonic and ask if there's been any service bulletins for loss of channel scans in memory.
Dan

radtek

12-02-05, 10:58 AM

Forum Junkie, and anyone else in the Yelm area, did you notice we had all the major digital channels Wed. night! So thats what it like in a perfect reception world. I even watched stuff I don't even care for just so I could use the "never get" channels. Of course its back to it's never get mode now.

Sheila

12-02-05, 11:35 AM

I've had my HTPC-HDTV a week (HP 37" LCD with built in cable card, qam tuner & HP z558 DEC with dual ntsc & 1 atsc tuner). I'm currently living in an apartment and will be moving to a condo in 7 weeks. They're located within 5 blocks of each other on top of Capitol Hill with a lot of trees and TV towers in the area. The apt is very old and has about 25 units give or take the condo is new construction with about 150 units. I'll be limited to an indoor antenna or Comcast.

Initially I used the old SB cable coax into the PC and all worked as expected. Of course I wasn't seeing HD yet. Comcast finally came out 2 days ago and spent 2 hours. I had them bring both a cable card and STB. They really didn't get either to work correctly. They said we didn't have the signal strength to do a 3-way split which is what was needed to have HD go from the STB to the MCE and also to the TV's cable card. When they left they took the STB and left us with the card since they couldn't get the STB to work at all. We planned (short term only) to move the coax if we really wanted to see HD on the TV but otherwise leave it as it was, viewing SD via the MCE. Both worked while the installer was here. However, when we went to watch our first wide screen HD show the first night we couldn't get it to work at all! The installer had said we could get a $50 amp to boost the signal. Then we could split it it. HOWEVER, he said that would burn out our DSL modem in no time. He suggested our new condo might have a better signal and be able to be split like we need it, so we should just wait until then. Is he just giving us the party line and protecting Comcast? I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Does it make sense that there'd be any difference in our signal between our apt & condo?

Meanwhile I decided I better check out my antenna options. So yesterday I went to Radio Shack and bought their $50 UHF-VHF-HDTV OTA INDOOR antenna. Box says three amplifier gains (19dB, 15dB and 10dB), 330° rotation and 12 reception directions. It has a remote with memory for each channel. Unfortunately I can't find any way to match up the 12 directions with the info at antennaweb.com. So we have this plugged into the MCE and could see HD relatively well on the major networks all day long. HD is indeed AWESOME. Then last night I tried to watch ER in widescreen HD stereo. It keep breaking up (jerky) and was pretty hard to watch. Every now and then I'd get the blue screen saying no signal. So I kept trying to adjust the dang antenna. But the best setting was the original one that was perfect in the afternoon and it still was jerky at night. Do the signals vary from day to night?

I'm so new to this. I don't know if it's the local broadcasts, the antenna itself or its settings, the tuner cards and/or decoders, or their settings, or what else?!!! Call me overwhelmed. I love the TV and the PC and the DVR capablities. What's a girl to do?

Thanks for your patience with a newbie. I'm open to all suggestions.
Sheila

forum junkie

12-02-05, 12:44 PM

DanKurts

12-03-05, 03:07 AM

Sheila

12-03-05, 10:38 AM

Sheila
Cable guy is not correct about cable amp burning out a cable modem (DSL is from the phone companies). It might not work any better with an amp. Older buildings can have some really bad distribution systems, so it's very possible to have problems. If the installer had it working and it quit, get 'em back. That's what you're paying for. For the over air, try to use an indoor antenna with NO amplifier. Your problem is TOO much signal. It's bouncing off the walls, which is why it's hard to find one spot for all the stations. Signals don't vary day/night, but noise levels do, specially if you live near a main street, electric buss lines, neon signs, etc. All that mixing in with an indoor antenna can cause problems.
If Comcast can't get it done, try to live with the indoor as best as possible until you get to the new condo. Then try the antenna there, just for grins. If it won't do it, then go cable.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I do have a DSL modem not a cable modem. Since I was getting nowhere with my first antenna I took it back to RS. After talking to them, I came home with a 1-4 Bi-Directional Cable-TV amp. They assured me it would work, and it sort of does. Last night I was able to watch my first HD show without issue. YEAH! The sort-of is because I'm not able to view HD via my PC (DVR). It requires OTA. So to watch HD I do it directly via the TV/cable card. I only have DVR ability in SD on the PC. I think I will indeed live with this until the condo move then try antennas again. Next time one w/o gain, it sounds like. Thanks SO much. I do appreciate the help.

Sheila

radtek

12-04-05, 11:40 AM

Radtek -- It is nice when that happens. Kiro is still the only one I have trouble with. Droppouts on KOMO have really increased. I don't know whats going on with that because KOMO has been my best Seattle station by 10 or more points for more than a year and a half until about a month ago. Now it is 10 or more below KING all the time. I doubt that it is a bad connection or anything because everything else is the same as always. From what Kelly at KOMO said, it sounds like this is it except for moving the signal to the top by 2009.

That to me is just more reason for the FCC to drop the B grade signal rules for reception. I have spent more that 300 dollars and tried every possible location with OTA antennas. If they can't provide a solid signal 48 miles away without finding one bounced off of something or another than let us have the national feeds on satellite. Talking with a local installer it sounds like what I have is the best in this area. He says they have had no luck with anything but KING out of Seattle out here and that is spotty.

Another 6 months or so I'll have the new Direct TV DVR and then have HD from them but I doubt after compression the picture will look as good as a solid one OTA.

forum junkie,
I feel I am fortunate with channel 4-1, it too comes in fairly decent 95% of the time. I have not had the drop outs...at least while I have been watching. AND! it better be on its best behavior this Monday night. :D I too am not going to invest anymore in the OTA. I have D*HD/Tivo and will upgrade to their new Mpeg4 stuff when it gets available here. The locale's analog pictures display terrible on my 62" set.

I lost channel 5-1 by about 50% of the time when I raised the mast 10 feet but did gain channel 4-1 which I was not getting at all. I thought about adding another antenna lower down but will wait for the D* HD locals. I also wonder how much they will step on the signal compared to OTA but its got to be better then what I get from D* now.

Jiff

12-04-05, 02:21 PM

I don't get audio in my rear speakers for KCTS' (OTA 9-5) HD Dolby D programs, like the Cream concert and Soundstage. Is that just the way it is?

pastiche

12-04-05, 08:37 PM

I'm so new to this. I don't know if it's the local broadcasts, the antenna itself or its settings, the tuner cards and/or decoders, or their settings, or what else?!!! Call me overwhelmed. I love the TV and the PC and the DVR capablities. What's a girl to do?

Sheila,

I'm also at the top of Capitol Hill, and reception here can be tough since signal strength from the Capitol Hill stations can be overly strong and signal strength from the Queen Anne stations can suffer from multipath.

In my case, I found that "simple is best." I got excellent results from both a Silver Sensor:

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131

and a dual-bowtie:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058

Note that with the dual-bowtie, you'll also need a 300 to 75 ohm balun:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062054

You may also find, if signal strength is too high and/or multipath is too bad at your location, that an attenuator will help:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022

Hope this helps.

Budget_HT

12-04-05, 09:56 PM

I don't get audio in my rear speakers for KCTS' (OTA 9-5) HD Dolby D programs, like the Cream concert and Soundstage. Is that just the way it is?

I can't recall ever hearing true DD 5.1 audio (i.e., all 5 channels and the subwoofer) from KCTS-HD, even though their signal shows DD 5.1 on my A/V receiver. And I have been watching for several years now.

What I do hear on KCTS-HD is always 2-channel stereo, just like you are reporting, Jiff.

Jiff

12-05-05, 04:09 PM

Thanks for verifying it's not my system or my settings, Budget. My AV receiver displys "Dolby D" too. I read that viewers of PBS' HD DD5.1 progams in other cities get the real deal. Don't know the cost of DD5.1 capability, but it appears KCTS is spending and spent plenty to have 3 channels and they're now broadcasting many HD programs. Disappointing.

daleq

12-05-05, 04:59 PM

DanKurts

12-06-05, 01:11 AM

Hi,

I'm currently using an OTA antenna with a rotor for standard TV. I'm considering gettting channel cut antenna's for 2 (Canada), 7 (getting ghosting) and heck, while I'm at it, 12 (Bellingham?) and using Join-Tenna's to link in the channel cut antennas. So, two questions;

#1 - Can one use 2-3 Join-Tennas with reasonable results?

#2 - Is all this going to be obsolete when HDTV becomes the only broadcasting option or will stations switch their HDTV broadcasting from UHF to VHF when the "cut over" occurs?
Reading the FAQ helps here;
Are DTV signals broadcast on special frequencies?

No. DTV broadcasts use exactly the same channels as regular analog television. While many DTV stations are now occupying UHF broadcast channels, broadcasters are allowed to move back to their original VHF or UHF TV channel once the transition to DTV is complete.
<snip>
One potential problem with re-using low VHF (2-6) TV channels for DTV is the possibility of interference from other signals during certain times of the year. "Skip" may bring in distant broadcasts on the same channel and create interference. Impulse noise is also a problem on low VHF channels. What’s more, the physical size of low VHF and high VHF antennas is much larger than that of a UHF antenna.

Tests so far seem to indicate that high VHF channels (7-13) are quite well suited for DTV broadcasts, and many broadcasters plan to move back to their high VHF channels at the end of the transition. VHF transmitters also cost much less money to operate than UHF transmitters.
--- end FAQ ---

Feel free to point me to links on where to find this information. Wikipedia didn't have much on the subject of HDTV.

Thanks,
Dale

Dale
#1. Yes and no.
Mixing channels with jointennas can be done, but you need to have at least one channel on either side in the VHF band, to keep them from interferring with each other. Of course, there are exceptions. Mixing ch2 with Seattle is okay, as there's no ch3 to worry about. Mixing ch7 also doesn't have to worry about ch8. Ch12, however will most likely have grief with ch's 11 & 13. There are ways to do it, but you need a field strength meter, traps, filters, patience, and a some bucks. And when it's all done, you won't be very impressed. A lot of it has to do with where you're located, too.
If you just connect it all together, the results we be pretty bad.

If you send me a cross street location where you live, I can give you a better idea of what to expect. I've been doing analog systems for decades, and have done the ch12 chase many times. Even ch6 & 2 on occasion.

#2. Technically, yes. I doubt if many stations will return to VHF for HD. Somewhere back in this thread there's info on which locals are going back to VHF, think it was only ch 11.....
The rest are going to stay with their UHF channels. Is it worth spending money on analog antennas? Hard to say. Depends on what your plans are for HD and your budget. I can say I only put up one analog antenna last year, none this year. With HD tuners becoming very cheap, and UHF antennas being smaller and easier to locate for HD, even if you don't have a HD TV, you can still down convert the signal for regular TV, and the picture looks great. No ghosting, snow, very clean. When your budget allows, you can step up to HD with everything in place and ready. If you're far enough north, you can even pick up KVOS HD. There's also some postings on this thread about the Canadian HD signals that are coming.
With your rotor, you could really have some fun. You may need a preamp, but that's easy to integrate.
Let me know where you are and I'll give you more info.
Dan

tg3

12-06-05, 12:38 PM

Where can I find the broadcast schedule for OTA KCTS 9.3 and 9.5? TitanTV used to carry the information, but no longer.

TIA.

Charles O

12-06-05, 04:16 PM

Where can I find the broadcast schedule for OTA KCTS 9.3 and 9.5? TitanTV used to carry the information, but no longer.

TIA.

The KCTS website has a listing of it's digital channels:
http://www.kcts.org/tvschedule/dtv.asp

daleq

12-07-05, 01:12 AM

#1 - Can one use 2-3 Join-Tennas with reasonable results?

#2 - Is all this going to be obsolete when HDTV becomes the only broadcasting option or will stations switch their HDTV broadcasting from UHF to VHF when the "cut over" occurs?

Dale
#1. Yes and no.
Mixing channels with jointennas can be done, but you need to have at least one channel on either side in the VHF band, to keep them from interferring with each other. Of course, there are exceptions. Mixing ch2 with Seattle is okay, as there's no ch3 to worry about. Mixing ch7 also doesn't have to worry about ch8. Ch12, however will most likely have grief with ch's 11 & 13. There are ways to do it, but you need a field strength meter, traps, filters, patience, and a some bucks. And when it's all done, you won't be very impressed. A lot of it has to do with where you're located, too.
If you just connect it all together, the results we be pretty bad.

If you send me a cross street location where you live, I can give you a better idea of what to expect. I've been doing analog systems for decades, and have done the ch12 chase many times. Even ch6 & 2 on occasion.
Dan,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I'm at 240th St SE and 23rd Ave SE, just north of the King-Sno line.

I'm not really that interested in Ch12 and given your description of the difficulties trying to get it, I'll drop that potential headache.

When I rotate my antenna North for Ch2, I get a fair picture, but it does contain a significant amount of "snow". My current antenna is whatever was at Lowes eight years ago, but it is about 8' long so it must be good, right? :) I'm considering a Wade channel cut Yagi for Ch2. Would this likely be signficantly better or is a preamp a better bet?

#2. Technically, yes. I doubt if many stations will return to VHF for HD. Somewhere back in this thread there's info on which locals are going back to VHF, think it was only ch 11.....
The rest are going to stay with their UHF channels. Is it worth spending money on analog antennas? Hard to say. Depends on what your plans are for HD and your budget. I can say I only put up one analog antenna last year, none this year. With HD tuners becoming very cheap, and UHF antennas being smaller and easier to locate for HD, even if you don't have a HD TV, you can still down convert the signal for regular TV, and the picture looks great. No ghosting, snow, very clean. When your budget allows, you can step up to HD with everything in place and ready. If you're far enough north, you can even pick up KVOS HD. There's also some postings on this thread about the Canadian HD signals that are coming.
With your rotor, you could really have some fun. You may need a preamp, but that's easy to integrate.
Let me know where you are and I'll give you more info.
Dan
Ah, now you're talking. I'd be very interested in getting HD antennas and then converting to SD since I, uh, just bought an old ReplayTV and new 24" SD TV :o
I'm probably asking too much, but for me to switch to HD antennas, I'll need some sort of set top box that could be controlled by the ReplayTV.

Thanks again for your help.
Dale

Angry Neighbors

12-07-05, 01:49 AM

DanKurts

12-07-05, 03:35 AM

Dan,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I'm at 240th St SE and 23rd Ave SE, just north of the King-Sno line.

I'm not really that interested in Ch12 and given your description of the difficulties trying to get it, I'll drop that potential headache.

When I rotate my antenna North for Ch2, I get a fair picture, but it does contain a significant amount of "snow". My current antenna is whatever was at Lowes eight years ago, but it is about 8' long so it must be good, right? :) I'm considering a Wade channel cut Yagi for Ch2. Would this likely be signficantly better or is a preamp a better bet?

Ah, now you're talking. I'd be very interested in getting HD antennas and then converting to SD since I, uh, just bought an old ReplayTV and new 24" SD TV :o
I'm probably asking too much, but for me to switch to HD antennas, I'll need some sort of set top box that could be controlled by the ReplayTV.

Thanks again for your help.
Dale

Dale
The facts: Ch2 is 114 miles from you.
Ten miles north is Paine field, over 200ft higher than you, plus trees on top of that.
Then there's the curvature of the earth.
I don't doubt you get some ch2. Lower frequencies follow the terrain better, but you're really in the mud for signal level. As you found out in the FAQ, ch's 2-6 are far more prone to picking up noise. I can testify! I've fought neon signs, poor electrical systems, noisy HVAC units, etc. When you add an amplifier for ch2, you amplify everything. Your original signal is going to be so weak that it won't really rise above the noise level. Noise is what you call snow. The overall signal level will come up, but when you also add in the noise of the amplifier, I think you'll be unhappy with the picture. It's what's called signal to noise ratio. You have to be above a certain minimum before it will work well enough to make a good picture.

An 8ft antenna is not that big in the analog VHF world. From the 60's through the 80's, I routinely used the Channel Master 3617 when out in the boonies. As I recall, it was twice that length. Not made anymore. Worked very well, and was great on ghosting. Even with that, and a high quality preamp, it's still tough to go much over 90 miles and get what most people would call a watchable picture. If you asked me to install something to get ch2, money no object, I would pass. No matter what I put up, you wouldn't like it. Most people are used to cable or satellite, for a minimum quality of picture. Ch2 will never look much better than what you see now.
If you still want to play, nothing wrong with that. You never know, you might be in a magic signal warp!

As for the Replay, not sure if it has any ability to control a tuner. If it does, it may not have the latest codes programmed for the newer HD tuners. I wouldn't hold your breath on that. Read the manual and see if it has an IR output. If any of the codes built in are for Samsung, Sony satellite, Hughes, the types with built in over iar tuners, that might work. You don't have to have the satellite turned on to use that part, but it might still respond to the Replay. Suggest checking a forum for Replay, see if anyone has had success.

Dan

Hi Def Fan

12-07-05, 05:08 AM

Just broke in my new Samsung TX-R2678WH Monday night watching, you guessed it, Monday Night Football. I was getting great reception on all the locaL HD OTA broadcasts using our 13 story building's rooftop antenna, no audio dropouts even on KOMO.

Here's my location and AntennaWeb map:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5995/antennawebdtmap0sh.png
Has anyone else had poor HD reception on KOMO starting Tuesday 12-06?

Using the bar graph reference my TV has built in, where 10 bars is full reception, I'm getting 7 bars on KING, 6 on KIRO, and 5 to 6 on KOMO.

When I first started experiencing problems with KOMO I was getting 6 bars on both KOMO and KIRO, but KIRO was rock solid and KOMO was breaking up at regular intervals. Last I checked KOMO was 6 bars and not coming in at all (no signal message).

I am on the 7th floor of my apt building (brick, concrete, and steel) I can see all 3 transmitters for ABC, NBC, and CBS out my window with no obstruction. Would a SIlver Sensor possibly give me better reception through the window, or is KOMO just having bad problems that can't be fixed by the viewers lately?

Monday night I tried comparing an old set of RCA brass rabbit ears to the rooftop antenna. The rabbit ears would bring all the stations in, but the reception would break up if I got too close to the TV.

CPanther95

12-07-05, 07:11 AM

Post #3904 merged in.

david4455

12-07-05, 10:46 AM

radtek

12-07-05, 11:21 AM

daleq

12-07-05, 11:54 AM

Dale
The facts: Ch2 is 114 miles from you.
Ten miles north is Paine field, over 200ft higher than you, plus trees on top of that.
Then there's the curvature of the earth.
I don't doubt you get some ch2. Lower frequencies follow the terrain better, but you're really in the mud for signal level.Dan,

Thank you for the information.

I'll just rotate my antenna to Ch2 this winter when the olympics are on. I'd much rather have snow during coverage of actual events than to watch American ice skaters untie their skates, put on their shoes, walk to the parking lot and drive away... :eek:As for the Replay, not sure if it has any ability to control a tuner. If it does, it may not have the latest codes programmed for the newer HD tuners. I wouldn't hold your breath on that. Read the manual and see if it has an IR output. If any of the codes built in are for Samsung, Sony satellite, Hughes, the types with built in over iar tuners, that might work. You don't have to have the satellite turned on to use that part, but it might still respond to the Replay. Suggest checking a forum for Replay, see if anyone has had success.
DanThat's the ticket!

The ReplayTV (even my old one) does support satellite receivers via an IR blaster. Since you've pointed out some models that include over the air tuners (e.g. Sony SAT-HD200), I'll keep my eye open for them.

Given my location, can you give me a prognosis as to how likely I'd receive a reasonably good over the air HDTV signal?

Thanks again for your help.
Dale

Travis M

12-07-05, 01:25 PM

Hi Def Fan

12-07-05, 01:47 PM

Just fiddled with my coax cable going from the wall mounted hookup to our roof antenna to my TV, while waiting to talk to KOMO's engineer, and wallah!, the signal is coming in steady now.

My coax is cut a bit longer than needed, as it's a left over piece from having cable TV service using a jack that's further away.

The end that is coiled up with the extra length is over by the wall jack, but near the surge protector I'm using for the TV. The KOMO engineer said it's proximity to the surge protector is likely the problem.

This was deceiving to me, as KIRO and KING do not show such vulnerablities. I'm going to fiddle with it some more to route it as far away from the surge protector as possible, as the signal still breaks a bit when I move near the wall jack.

I'm certainly no expert on this, but I would suggest if KOMO is comming in badly or not at all, check to see if your antenna cable or antenna itself can be tweaked some. Getting KIRO and KING in good but not KOMO does not necessarily mean the KOMO signal is inferior, as I had assumed, it may just be more susceptible to setup errors in your location. ;)

Other things I found out were the HD transmitter is mounted 80' below the top of the tower, facing SE, so there is a weak spot in the signal if you're to the NW of the tower. Also, KOMO is currently at full signal strength, they can't boost it any higher.

I imagine they're waiting until '09 to move the HD one to the top because there are probably still more people using the analog signal than the HD signal. Also, if they did a swap now, vs a change in '09, there would be a terrible weak spot to the NW for analog, as it is more susceptable to signal blocking than HD.

Loving my HDTV!

Kelly From KOMO

12-07-05, 02:18 PM

Uh, probably because there are far more analog viewers than digital?

kwhumphreys

12-07-05, 02:54 PM

The ReplayTV (even my old one) does support satellite receivers via an IR blaster. Since you've pointed out some models that include over the air tuners (e.g. Sony SAT-HD200), I'll keep my eye open for them.

As far as I could find out, ReplayTV will only control Samsung OTA HD tuners. It needs a manual code setting which folks have posted in the Replay forum.

*However*, it cannot tune to HD subchannels at all. It will tune to the first subchannel and stay there (a pain for KCTS in this area, because the HD feed is not on 9-1). Also, you need to fake the channel guide by telling the ReplayTV that you have a cable/satellite service which happens to have local channels on numbers corresponding to the OTA numbers (I think I use Seattle Dish*).

And for ReplayTV commercial skip to work, you need to set the Samsung to output full screen 16:9, which will be stretched on an SD TV. You either get used to it, or put up with the Samsung's gray bars which break the commercial skip.

And then the ReplayTV will only record SD and analog sound. High quality output on an SD TV is probably the best you can get though, and digital sound output will let you do some Dolby processing.

You have to be really committed to your ReplayTV - there are better options for HD now.

Hi Def Fan

12-07-05, 03:06 PM

Uh, probably because there are far more analog viewers than digital?First off, you misquoted me,..."there are probably still more (not "far more") people using the analog signal than the HD signal".

Admittedly though, that was pure uneducated speculation on my part. If you are indeed "from KOMO", and have some insight on the ratio of analog to HD viewers in our area, please, by all means tell us.

Please though, if you have such info, divulge how broad an area it covers, as there are analog viewers getting the non HD signal from quite a ways away. Also, please tell us how accurate the info is, and how it was derived, or whether it is a guess. Is there really an exact way to determine it?

Budget_HT

12-07-05, 03:45 PM

Hi Def Fan,

If you had kept up with this thread, you would not have to ask whether Kelly was really from KOMO.

From KOMO-DT, first 'Don Wilkinson', and lately 'Kelly From KOMO', have been participating in this forum and thread for well over a year (I can't remember when first reading posts from Don W.). These folks have been most generous in sharing their successes and frustrations with us as they and their station staff have worked through many technical and software issues that are not uncommon with emerging technologies and services.

You can search by user to see their posts.

There is no doubt in my mind that there ar FAR more analog viewers than digital. You can look up data for how many HDTVs and HD satellite STBs and HD cable STBs have been sold, and compare those numbers to existing analog TVs and boxes.

For a simple sample, think about your circle of family and friends, and how many are now viewing HDTV instead of analog TV, whether via OTA, cable or satellite.

daleq

12-07-05, 07:43 PM

As far as I could find out, ReplayTV will only control Samsung OTA HD tuners. It needs a manual code setting which folks have posted in the Replay forum.

*However*, it cannot tune to HD subchannels at all. It will tune to the first subchannel and stay there (a pain for KCTS in this area, because the HD feed is not on 9-1). Also, you need to fake the channel guide by telling the ReplayTV that you have a cable/satellite service which happens to have local channels on numbers corresponding to the OTA numbers (I think I use Seattle Dish*).

And for ReplayTV commercial skip to work, you need to set the Samsung to output full screen 16:9, which will be stretched on an SD TV. You either get used to it, or put up with the Samsung's gray bars which break the commercial skip.

And then the ReplayTV will only record SD and analog sound. High quality output on an SD TV is probably the best you can get though, and digital sound output will let you do some Dolby processing.

You have to be really committed to your ReplayTV - there are better options for HD now. Thanks for your input.

On ReplayTV's IR Code page I see that the 2000 series (my unit) supports the Sony HD-300, so to me, it looks like this should work. I found an excellent O'Reilly article (http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2004/10/14/digital_tv.html) that pretty much mirrors my desires for HDTV (except I'm willing to put up a good outdoor antenna). From this article, it appears the worst thing is that these Sony receivers don't gracefully handle repeated requests for the same channel. I can probably do a similar work-around.

I don't have commercial skip on my unit so that is OK. I'd be thrilled if I got an super clean SD image. It will be a significant step up from where I am now. Dolby, etc aren't really important to me either. (I hope I won't be kicked off the HDTV forum for these statements. :) )

Thanks again for your comments.
Dale

Hi Def Fan

12-07-05, 08:08 PM

Hi Def Fan,
If you had kept up with this thread, you would not have to ask whether Kelly was really from KOMO.OK, so I'm new here and haven't read through dozens of posts, most of which likely do not apply to my situation. I do search for relative info before making posts, but mostly via thread titles.

My words were not intended to dispute whether Kelly is actually from KOMO or not, but rather to ask what facts (and their source) relate to the question of analog vs HD viewers.

It was not even clear to me what Kelly meant by his response, which as I said, was a misquote to begin with. "Uh, probably because there are far more analog viewers than digital?"..could easily be interpreted as a challenge that what I said, (and admittedly assumed) about there probably being more analog than HD viewers, was incorrect.

So I don't see your point really, if his response had been more akin to someone with tech insight on HD broadcasting (ie: more concise), this conversation would not even be taking place.

It's interesting to note as well that Kelly chose to jump in and remark on my post rather than just answer radtek's question:

"Why...Why! do we have to wait for 2000 whatever for them to move their digital antenna from the middle of the tower to the top of the tower! Swap places now I say."

...all I'm saying is, I respect the need for conciseness and accurate info just as much as anyone. It does no good to make vague remarks that don't answer anything. You could have just as easily pointed out that radtek's question had been gone over before, which I'm sure it has.

JeffE

12-07-05, 08:40 PM

Kelly From KOMO

12-07-05, 09:18 PM

david4455

12-07-05, 09:33 PM

wezar

12-07-05, 09:44 PM

Kelly. I want to Thank KOMO for being a HDTV broadcast pioneer. I bought my set 6 years ago and thanks to KOMO I have received a lot of great HD entertainment.

Reading you comments relating to how few folks are watching HDTV even today makes the KOMO commitment to HDTV even more impressive.

Keep up the great work.

wezar

12-07-05, 09:49 PM

Just wondering why this morning I could get all the channels pretty decently....now I cannot get a couple at all...including KIRO that use to be my strongest signal..... The antenna hasn't moved....is this just the nature of OTA channels?

Short answer is YES.

Still once you get the right combination you should have dependable reception if your location is not too close or too far from the towers. I am in Bellevue but still use a rotator to optimise my signal between King and KCPQ when it is wet and windy out. Use the search feature and read all you can from our local experts posts.

I did not read up on your setup or general location. If you provided that type of information some folks might chime in and help you out.

Kelly From KOMO

12-07-05, 09:55 PM

Hi Def Fan

12-08-05, 12:18 AM

I don't have the time or energy to debate my point, but here is some industry information to illustrate my comment:

I can't quote exact area data in the Seattle DMA, because that information is confidential from Nielsen, but about three months ago over the air DTV-HD reception equaled about 1.5% of the total television viewership, and about 3% cable. So...analog viewership=97% cable, 98.5% OTA.

We're not doing this to upset you or make you feel of lesser importance, the fact remains that many TV stations will not be replacing their analog antenna positions with DTV antennas until the yet to be approved analog shut-off date sometime in 2009 because of the potential loss of analog viewers.Thanks for the details Kelly, I couldn't get much by talking to the NAB or CEA. CEA directed me to their twice.com site, but there 2004 vs 2005 records for analog vs HD sales is very skewed by the fact that they didn't include plasma and LCD sets for 2004.

It's only a national vs regional study anyway, based on sales vs viewership.

BTW, I'm not offended, there seems to have just been a misunderstanding. I thought you were saying I was wrong about there being more analog viewers, and I was not intending to imply that the transmitters should be swapped now, I was only trying to offer what I thought was the reason they haven't been.

My personal opinion remains, I love HDTV, and any station in the area that supports it with frequent broadcasts. I hear Fox is going to be as well soon.

I know it's a tough and technical thing to do. In the last week I've spoken to HD engineers at both KIRO and KOMO, and they were both very pleasant people.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!...loving Monday Night Football on my new HDTV! :)

forum junkie

12-08-05, 01:21 AM

DanKurts

12-08-05, 02:19 AM

I live over on Bainbridge.

I just installed a Antennas Direct DB4 Multi-Directional HDTV Antenna on the recommendation of a SolidSignal tech. I have a new Sony KD-34XBR960
( awesome TV).... being my first foray into OTA channels I am pleased with the results. Unfortunately I have some BIG fir trees right in the line of sight towards Seattle.... I can get all the channels that I am suppose to get but channel 13
( Fox) is the weakest... signal goes in and out and the strength hovers around 50%. I hate to do much more tweaking because I am afraid I may lose other channels at the expense of getting a stronger Fox.....

david4455
If you have it aimed directly at Seattle, ch13 is coming in on the side, which the antenna is designed to reject. The antenna has a fairly wide reception pattern. Try pointing it more SE or South. Of course, the trees may have something to do with it. Only trying different directions will tell. Ch 13 may also be overloading your tuner. Try a RatShack adjustable attenuator set for max while watching ch13. Slowly reduce it and see if it gets better. Also aim the antenna SW at ch13 and see what you get. Be sure to try the attenuator as well.
If you're worried about loosing direction, make a mark on the mast and clamp with a marker pen, so you can find the good spot again.
If you can't find a good spot for all channels, you may have to use a second small antenna for ch13, coupled with a Jointenna for ch18 (ch13's actual UHF channel).
Let us know what the results of the reaiming are and we can give you a better idea of where to proceed.
The only other thing that might be a problem is if you have a big hill to the South or SW that could be blocking. If so, send the cross streets and we can check it against the terrain program.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 02:26 AM

I live in Port Orchard Wa. about 30 miles from the farthest HDTV tower in Seattle, I have some hills and trees "not too many". What is the best antenna "hopefully not too ugly" I can get my HDTV stations on. Price is not a concern because I have too much into this system not to pay $100-300 to get the networks.

P.S. If any reader in WA. knows an installer in this area, pleases let me know, I've only lived in Washington for about a week.

A.N.
Depends where you are. Some places there are a slam dunk, others can be tough.
Send the cross streets and I can give you a better idea. An antenna for a good area could be the simple RatShack 15-2160, about $25.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 02:34 AM

Dan,

Thank you for the information.

I'll just rotate my antenna to Ch2 this winter when the olympics are on. I'd much rather have snow during coverage of actual events than to watch American ice skaters untie their skates, put on their shoes, walk to the parking lot and drive away... :eek:That's the ticket!

The ReplayTV (even my old one) does support satellite receivers via an IR blaster. Since you've pointed out some models that include over the air tuners (e.g. Sony SAT-HD200), I'll keep my eye open for them.

Given my location, can you give me a prognosis as to how likely I'd receive a reasonably good over the air HDTV signal?

Thanks again for your help.
Dale

Dale
You're in a pretty good spot. A small 15-2160 would probably do it. Turn your rotor SW. If you still plan to play with the old antenna, then mount it below the rotor. You won't really need to turn it once you have it working. All the channels are basically one direction from you.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 03:06 AM

Monday Night Football with my beloved Seahawks! Couldn't get any better then that could it, right?..... But! during the 1st quarter the picture started pixalating then froze and then the dreaded blue box stating unable to find signal. I had to switch to D* and it poor excuse for a picture ...with the combination of snow falling and the terrible picture it was un-watchable.... Why...Why! do we have to wait for 2000 whatever for them to move their digital antenna from the middle of the tower to the top of the tower! Swap places now I say. That may be just enough for us folks who live on the fringes to receive a decent signal, Normally I can get 4-1 90% of the time but when you really, really want to watch something grrrrr!.... Whew! the rant is over and I feel some better now and I guess the game was over too by the end of the 1st quarter, But seriously why the wait?

radtek
Moving the antenna another 80ft or so higher to 965ft isn't going to make that much difference at your distance, about 50 miles. Maybe a half of one degree, give or take. It's not going to help clear the trees around you. KOMO's antenna is mounted on the east side, so the tower is not in the way, giving you a clear shot already. Your biggest problem is the trees near you. KOMO just happens to be the one that's getting chopped up by them the worst. I would be willing to bet the other channels that do come in are also fairly ugly, signal wise, but your tuner's able to cope.
I feel your pain, though! Nobody gets more bugged about antenna reception that goes bad than me. Even more so when I can't find out what's causing it. And double that when the wife chimes in, " ....thought you were the eggsburt....."
One of these days we'll have to hook up and measure your antenna. Call and we'll see what we can work out.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 03:19 AM

I have a general question that I haven't really seen answered. Granted, I didn't go thru ALL 131 pages, but I went back quite a ways.

I have sceduled a HD install for Dtv and the HD tivo this saturday. Currently I use a $40 indoor HD antenna that seems to work fine most of the time, but when it rains, it glitches some channels. Also some channels work great, while others will come in and out without moving my antenna around a bit. There are times when I can get all OTA HD channels tho, but it seems to be weather restricted.

I live in a townhome on the bottom floor in bellevue near 8th ave NE and 143 cross streets (near crossroads). I was wondering if anyone thinks that the Antenna that DTV is going to install will mostly fix my rather unstable HD service or am I already seeing the best I'll get? I need to know so that I can figure out if I want to cancel the install or not.

Thanks a bunch!

Travis
The one I see them use is the generic motor home antenna. Not real swift. However, you might get away with it as your location is pretty good. What can trip reception up is the buildings in downtown Bellevue. They can be a pain there. If their antenna doesn't do it, you can always try another flavor. They'll already have a mast and cable run, so it wouldn't be hard. See what happens and then let us know.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 03:34 AM

Hi,

New AVSForum member here.

Larry, I was wondering if I could impose on you for a reception check? My location is:

114th St. SE and 33rd Drive SE
Everett, WA 98208

From what I can tell, my elevation is about 430 ft.

I'd like to be able to use an Antennas Direct DB-2 in the attic, if possible.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

Jeff
I have an install about a 1/4 mile south of you. A few feet lower than you but no hills in the way. Lots of trees, though. You're in the same basic situation, with a small hill 1/2 mile away, that may block somewhat. An attic is not going to work. You might get one channel, maybe. I needed a 4248 and preamp, and a separate ch13 antenna. Signal is on the low side. Very chopped up by trees. The attic will only make it worse.
I tried other flavors, but that's what worked. We got all the channels, barely.
Done other work around you, and it's the trees that are the problem. Antenna location is very touchy. You might have to try several spots before you get a good one.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 03:42 AM

Just wondering why this morning I could get all the channels pretty decently....now I cannot get a couple at all...including KIRO that use to be my strongest signal..... The antenna hasn't moved....is this just the nature of OTA channels?

david4455
No.
The channels are fine. It's the nature of the trees. Wet, wind, branches fall and block more or less, etc. The other thing you can't see is that what looks good to you on your strength indicator could be a marginal signal. HD is perfect when locked in, and gone when the signal changes only slightly. Not like analog where you get varying degrees of ghosting, snow, etc. Try another mounting location to see if you get better numbers. A matter of a foot in any direction, when you're going through trees, can make all the difference.
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-05, 03:58 AM

Kelly -
The help you and Don have given as many have said has been great and it seems KOMO is the only one taking the time to listen to us. But please understand that some have spent a lot of money on equipment because the shut off date was originally supposed to be 2006. Their frustration I'm sure isn't toward you or KOMO. it's just frustration. To KOMO it's a business and I can understand that and can understand it when they say there are more analog viewers. But if there aren't that many HD viewers - why are stations denying waivers until after 2009 ?

I'll second that!
Kelly and Don have been great. It's helped me and my customers immensely.

I would also like to whine about the waiver thing.
I know it's not up to you folks, lots of politics, of all types, involved with it. I see the injustice more than most. Like the folks on West Lake Sammamish way, with a couple hundred foot cliff right behind them, no way for over air reception, no waivers, because they're only 10 miles away. Then there's Port Ludlow, 26 miles away, get's to have west coast HD feeds from LA, (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) without asking for waivers, because their zip code fits this "magic list of zip codes". But radtek, in Yelm, twice that distance, can't get the feeds turned on because his zip code is not allowed, and stations won't give waivers. Very unfair. And many other similar places around Puget Sound. It would really be great if someone could use some common sense and and a good topography program to help these people out.

Again, thanks for keeping us in the loop.
Dan

david4455

12-08-05, 08:40 AM

david4455
If you have it aimed directly at Seattle, ch13 is coming in on the side, which the antenna is designed to reject. The antenna has a fairly wide reception pattern. Try pointing it more SE or South. Of course, the trees may have something to do with it. Only trying different directions will tell. Ch 13 may also be overloading your tuner. Try a RatShack adjustable attenuator set for max while watching ch13. Slowly reduce it and see if it gets better. Also aim the antenna SW at ch13 and see what you get. Be sure to try the attenuator as well.
If you're worried about loosing direction, make a mark on the mast and clamp with a marker pen, so you can find the good spot again.
If you can't find a good spot for all channels, you may have to use a second small antenna for ch13, coupled with a Jointenna for ch18 (ch13's actual UHF channel).
Let us know what the results of the reaiming are and we can give you a better idea of where to proceed.
The only other thing that might be a problem is if you have a big hill to the South or SW that could be blocking. If so, send the cross streets and we can check it against the terrain program.
Dan

Thanks Dan for your time and answer.....I will play with some of your suggestions....suddenly KIRO seems to be a problem....getting "no signal" when it was strong th eday before. (?)

P.S. What is an attenuator?

Kelly From KOMO

12-08-05, 11:33 AM

Kelly -
The help you and Don have given as many have said has been great and it seems KOMO is the only one taking the time to listen to us. But please understand that some have spent a lot of money on equipment because the shut off date was originally supposed to be 2006. Their frustration I'm sure isn't toward you or KOMO. it's just frustration. To KOMO it's a business and I can understand that and can understand it when they say there are more analog viewers. But if there aren't that many HD viewers - why are stations denying waivers until after 2009 ?

Well I can't make a blanket statement that explains every station ownership policy regarding granting of waivers for out-of-market satellite signals, because it varies.

The problem is that some folks typically ask for waivers because they don't want to pay for cable to get local HD programming, already have the satellite gear, or would rather watch a station outside of the market, (because they are from the LA area, etc.). Having been involved with this process for many years at a station level, it would take a full-time staff of many people to evaluate individually each waiver request, even at 1.5-2% of the total OTA viewing right now. This would be a cost burden on each station to in essence, send viewers away for the long-haul.

Please understand however, I do see both sides to the coin, and feel your pain. One solution would be for the DSS guys to actually provide local HD into local here in the Seattle DMA. That would be a good start. Instead they opted to skip Seattle, and move another city up in the list.

forum junkie

12-08-05, 12:06 PM

Kelly -

I am amazed at the quick responses we receive from you, If only the other Seattle stations cared as much. I guess my thinking was that waivers shouldn't be necessary until after 2009 and therefore no expense. I wish cable was available to me, it would save a lot of trips to the roof. Being more than 150 ft. off the road means Comcast wants $6,000.00 to give me cable --- OUCH.

Travis M

12-08-05, 12:53 PM

Thanks for the info Dan. I'll report back what happens.

I too can't wait for Seattle to get local feeds from DTV, but I don't think they actually skipped us, we actually dropped a rank to Tampa which is in the group of 12 being currently upgraded.

the link for this info is at nielsonmedia if you want to confirm.

daleq

12-08-05, 01:03 PM

Dale
You're in a pretty good spot. A small 15-2160 would probably do it. Turn your rotor SW. If you still plan to play with the old antenna, then mount it below the rotor. You won't really need to turn it once you have it working. All the channels are basically one direction from you.
DanDan,
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge. I will give the 15-2160 a try.
Dale

rdiotte

12-08-05, 06:08 PM

forum junkie

12-08-05, 06:15 PM

Ron D. -

It sounds as if you might have some knowledge of what's going on at KIRO. As someone who has lived out in Yelm since 1967, I can't help but wonder why KIRO has always been the toughest signal to get in Yelm, wether it be analog or digital ?

rdiotte

12-08-05, 06:48 PM

forum junkie

12-08-05, 07:38 PM

Ron D. -

First thanks for the quick reply. I have found everything you said to be true. I was just curious about KIRO because in the time I have lived here, I have lived in 4 different locations, had at least a dozen antennas that I tried at various locations and always KIRO is the tough one, even though they seem to be the most powerful.

As for KSTW and KCTS, they have always been a given out here, both analog and digital. They just don't have first run CSI and Cold Case. Thanks again.

JeffE

12-08-05, 11:47 PM

Jeff
I have an install about a 1/4 mile south of you. A few feet lower than you but no hills in the way. Lots of trees, though. You're in the same basic situation, with a small hill 1/2 mile away, that may block somewhat. An attic is not going to work. You might get one channel, maybe. I needed a 4248 and preamp, and a separate ch13 antenna. Signal is on the low side. Very chopped up by trees. The attic will only make it worse.
I tried other flavors, but that's what worked. We got all the channels, barely.
Done other work around you, and it's the trees that are the problem. Antenna location is very touchy. You might have to try several spots before you get a good one.
Dan

Dan,

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and expertise - even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear!

Right now I'm using an ATI HDTV wonder card with the included internal antenna (which looks suspiciously like a Silver Sensor). I'm getting signal strengths between 50 and 60 for KOMO, KING and KIRO, which almost works. I'm still hoping that an attic antenna would pull these 3 stations up to 80% reliably - I'm unwilling to use a roof-mounted antenna at this point.

Thanks,

Jeff

dlinsley

12-09-05, 12:55 AM

DanKurts

12-09-05, 02:36 AM

Hi Dan,

I was wondering if you good give me a location check please?

My cross street is 39th Ave S and Holden (major intersection is Othello and Martin Luther King Jr War) in Seattle.

I'm unsure as to weather Beacon Hill is going to be a problem...

Thanks,
David.

David
The hill is not a big problem, but it is there...... What I find is that there's a double whammy of signal being pretty strong and bouncing off of everything, and, QA signals go right through all the high buildings in downtown. Signal levels will bounce around quite a bit. If you get too narrow an antenna, yagi style, you won't get 9-11-22. If you use a wide one, bow tie style, multipath comes in from everywhere. And, ch 13 is partially blocked by the hill to the west, a third direction the antenna has to cope with. It could be easy. I have an install not far from you on 46th and Kenyon. As I recall, we got everything, but that's when ch13 was still coming in on ch22. Not sure if that's how we got it or if it came from ch13's tower to the west.
The only way to find out is put one up. Start with the Rat Shack 15-2160. It can be returned if it doesn't work.
Dan

DanKurts

12-09-05, 04:15 AM

Its' just location, location, location. KIRO TV's signal strength and antenna pattern are the same as most all OTA, High V stations in the market...but their tower is located at the far west end of QA hill.
I wonder if when the Columbia building went up, which is 300 feet higher than any broadcast antenna in seattle that the "shadow" created by the building just magnifies itself in the SE direction and gives less than stellar reception on the NE Pierce County Plateau.

I've had reception emails from people that say the same thing about KSTW...."I can get every station but your station. Why is that?"

Something I've been telling viewers by email is that not all TV station signals arrive at your antenna at their "peak" level.....all stations have different wavelengths and the wave cannot arrive to be absorbed by your antenna at a maximum rate for all available signals at a given time.

I tell viewers they may have to move their antennaes in a lateral fashion, not just rotate where their mount is at the time. One signal from a particular station may be stronger just 3 to 5 feet away from where it is now...but then another stations' wave will now be weaker. You need to find the happy medium that brings in most stations you desire at adequate levels...unfortunately, to acquire proper test equipment of that sort is expensive and takes good operating knowledge to use effectively.
But...I have heard back from several viewers that said..."yea, you're right...I moved my antenna and pole to the other side of my roof or my chimney and now I get you fine and other stations fine...but I lose this one...or that one!

This is also the reason why strength meters vary on DTV receivers....I get KCTS DT at 99% on my system at home but I get KSTW (my station) at 78%...but...I know that KCTS is putting out a DTV signal of some 450kw ERP whereas KSTW is putting out a DTV signal of 850kw....almost double the power output...but KSTW has less signal strength at my common receive site.
The reason I site this is also that the KSTW & KCTS towers are literally 125' apart and within 6 channels of each other on the UHF band for DTV.

sorry to be so wordy....hope my prospective gives insight as to why OTA TV signals are all over the place.

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

Ron
Thanks for your information. It's a big help to know what's going on at the "other end" !

Since I'm out in the woods and on the roofs a lot, here's some perspective that might help you answer those callers questions.
For the analog KIRO problem, it's mainly because of the higher frequency. Ch's 4 & 5 are about 60mhz to 76mhz, while ch7 is about 170mhz. The higher the frequency, the less it wants to bend over or around hills. I've measured it. Ch's 9 & 11 aren't immune, either. Many customers just say they aren't as concerned with them as they are with 4, 5, & 7. In the days of yore, almost any place that was not a clean shot had problems with KIRO. It's one of the reasons they have some many low power analog UHF repeaters all around Puget Sound. CH's 9 & 11 could use the repeaters, too, but just never put them in.
For HD problems, I can agree with you, location, location. For every spot someone is having trouble with KIRO or KSTW, there's just as many having problems with the other stations, too. You're only hearing the ones related to you.

There's another thing that you might mention to them is that KIRO's HD polar plot, or radiation pattern is not 360 degrees, but looks more like a capital letter D, with the lowest power going west. Their analog pattern IS 360 degrees. KSTW's analog and HD patterns are sort of peanut shaped, NE to SW. That's why Forum Junkie in Yelm has a better chance at KSTW than those in Covington or Maple Valley. Measured that, too. KING has a figure 8 pattern, with very little going east and west. Jobs on the eastside, Bellevue, Duvall, etc, show 5 to 15db lower, again depending on location. Because of KSTW's pattern, even with twice the power of ch9, on the eastside it routinely shows 5 to 10 db lower.

Which brings up the "strength" indicators. What people are reporting to you is not actual signal level or amount. It's signal to noise ratio. That's why your station's being received with a lower percentage over ch9 at your home. I would bet if you put a field strength meter on it, and you live in NE Seattle, your station will be equal or better. Some places, like Volunteer Park, signal is so hot, if users don't knock it down with at least a 10 db pad, their "strength" will actually look worse, because of the overloaded tuner. Yet a meter would show 25 to 40 db, depending on antenna. That's enough to drive a 10 to 40 unit apartment building!

Moving the antenna in any direction is great advice. Because HD is UHF, and 1/4 wavelength is so short, 4" to 8", moving it just a foot can make a huge difference.
As for the shadow from the Columbia tower in downtown, you're right. The farther away you get, though, it doesn't make much difference. Out towards Enumscratch, which is in the shadow, I find the QA channels come in fairly equal. In any where else in Pierce county, from South Prarie to Eatonville or Orting, and all points west, like Yelm, the Columbia tower is not a factor. I did some plots on my Topo program just to verify.
Another place where buildings come into play is just east of downtown Bellevue. From about 125th NE to 160th NE, I see widely varying results. Plotted, you can see signal path going right into them.

Last, just because the callers get your station "great" in analog, (and what everyone's idea of great analog is can vary a LOT....), doesn't mean the HD will come in fine, too.

Hope this will help you answer questions from your viewers.

AND, thanks again for keeping us informed, and answering OUR questions.
If there's anything I can do in return, call anytime.
Dan
206-794-3993

DanKurts

12-09-05, 04:19 AM

Thanks Dan for your time and answer.....I will play with some of your suggestions....suddenly KIRO seems to be a problem....getting "no signal" when it was strong th eday before. (?)

P.S. What is an attenuator?

david4455
It's a device inserted in line with your antenna cable, preferrably close to your tuner, that reduces the amount of signal. Tuners can get over loaded and the effect looks like weak signal. This one is adjustable.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search

Dan

david4455

12-09-05, 09:27 AM

radtek

12-09-05, 11:31 AM

radtek
Moving the antenna another 80ft or so higher to 965ft isn't going to make that much difference at your distance, about 50 miles. Maybe a half of one degree, give or take. It's not going to help clear the trees around you. KOMO's antenna is mounted on the east side, so the tower is not in the way, giving you a clear shot already. Your biggest problem is the trees near you. KOMO just happens to be the one that's getting chopped up by them the worst. I would be willing to bet the other channels that do come in are also fairly ugly, signal wise, but your tuner's able to cope.
I feel your pain, though! Nobody gets more bugged about antenna reception that goes bad than me. Even more so when I can't find out what's causing it. And double that when the wife chimes in, " ....thought you were the eggsburt....."
One of these days we'll have to hook up and measure your antenna. Call and we'll see what we can work out.
Dan

Hi Dan, Thanks for all your help on this forum. Guess I started a real brew-ha-ha here :) anyway everyone on this forum is after one thing... good reception of Hi Def signals. And, it is very frustrating to invest (in my case 14K in a Home Theater setup) a lot of $$$ and not be able to use it to its fullest degree.

As far as my reception, I think the distance/weather is the major problem with the weather being the maker or breaker, Last night for instance I got all 4 major networks! I have a 8 bow tie antenna mounted approx 30 feet off the ground. I do not have any trees to the north, northwest, of me there are some trees to the northeast of me but they are at least half a mile away and I look to be above them. I live on a prairie type plateau I am not certain what the elevation is but I assume at an elevation higher then where the towers in Ski-Dattle are based.

My antenna location is set as far as lateral movement goes (none). I have adjusted its height and zeroed in at approx 5 degrees NE for the best reception with this setup. By raising the mast 10 extra feet I managed to get 4-1 which was a victory of sorts out here. I have never had any trouble recieving 13-1. On my HR10-250 receiver's noise ratio bar graph they run at 84 and 88 respectively just 5-1 and of course 7-1 are problematic. Last night 5-1 and 7-1 were coming in and they metered at 68 and 71 anything below 68 causes problems. Because the location of my mast is unmovable the only other option would be to put a second antenna perhaps on a tripod mast on the roof and tie it into the main antenna.

I, like forum junkie was told by the cable people when I moved here that I was to far from a hook up. I went with D* and also with the DirecWay Sat. Internet.
Later when HD became available with D* I purchased a 32 inch HD TV, a Hughes sat box and a 3 transponder dish and hooked it up my self all for a couple of Hi Def programs. A year ago I invested in the new home theater set up, erected the OTA to be first in line for the 2006 digital change over.....NOT! And, contrary to some thinking I would be willing to pay extra for a waiver.
With the 2 Sat dishes, a Big bow tie sticking up in the air a second antenna got the thumbs down from the wife. I have decided to wait till this spring when D*supposedly starts the local HD broadcasts in our DMA. And Dan thanks for the offer to help, you are a great asset to this forum.
Thanks

dlinsley

12-09-05, 01:27 PM

David
The hill is not a big problem, but it is there...... What I find is that there's a double whammy of signal being pretty strong and bouncing off of everything, and, QA signals go right through all the high buildings in downtown. Signal levels will bounce around quite a bit. If you get too narrow an antenna, yagi style, you won't get 9-11-22. If you use a wide one, bow tie style, multipath comes in from everywhere. And, ch 13 is partially blocked by the hill to the west, a third direction the antenna has to cope with. It could be easy. I have an install not far from you on 46th and Kenyon. As I recall, we got everything, but that's when ch13 was still coming in on ch22. Not sure if that's how we got it or if it came from ch13's tower to the west.
The only way to find out is put one up. Start with the Rat Shack 15-2160. It can be returned if it doesn't work.
Dan

Thanks for your time.
David,

forum junkie

12-09-05, 02:12 PM

Radtek -

So you got all 4 last night - I was wondering where mine went - you must have took them.

I had them all day long and then about 4pm lost them all. They just dropped right off instantly as if someone threw a switch. Could not even get 1 bar on KOMO, KIRO, or KONG and just a couple on KING. Sure will be glad when DTV gets their new HDPVR out.

DrCrawn

12-09-05, 03:26 PM

Due to clearance issues for KIRO TV and the fact that KSTW, UPN11 is owned by CBS....KSTW is airing the Duke vs. Texas Game in HD on KSTW 11.1 this Saturday, Dec. 10th from 10:30 to 1:30.
We're also airing the CBS Game of Gonzaga vs. OK, but CBS isn't providing this regional game in HD....
Also, the audio won't be in 5.1 on KSTW DT as we don't have the dolby encoders to pass AC3 audio (5.1) just 2.0
Enjoy!! :)

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

Just to clarify: this one time programming change is not due to reception issues; KIRO is going to air the Wooden (sp) Baskteball Classic in which the UW team is playing in from LA this Saturday, which has more appeal for some viewers in Seattle)

Great! Thanks for the update. KSTW-DT has been flawless for me over the years in terms of HD. Never a drop-out, never a missed flip to the HD feed, no problems that I can remember period. This cannot be said for the other Seattle DT stations.

As a smaller station, I applaud your team for being able to compete and exceed the HD quality from other larger affiliates around here. Can't wait to see the basketball game in HD.

Please don't be a stranger here, we love to hear from you guys at the stations. ;)

pastiche

12-09-05, 09:23 PM

Ron D. --

Any word on when Comcast might add KSTW? It's less-than-optimal to have to switch from cable to antenna and rescan every time I want to watch Channel 11. :)

Chuck Ebby

12-09-05, 11:05 PM

Is there anything going on with Komo tonight? I've lost it completely. All other channels are fine.

wezar

12-09-05, 11:12 PM

Just checked. 8:12 and all is well.... Solid reception at my place in Bellevue.

Chuck Ebby

12-09-05, 11:35 PM

Just checked. 8:12 and all is well.... Solid reception at my place in Bellevue.

Thanks. Just checked and I have it again now. Wonder what happened? Probably will never know.

DanKurts

12-10-05, 02:38 AM

I live on Bainbridge....500 feet from the water ( not on the water) towards Seattle BUT I have some big trees in the way. I have a Antennas Direct DB4 Multi-Directional HDTV Antenna set up towards Seattle. I get most of the channels pretty well except those coming out of Tacoma. ( Fox and PBS) Solid Signal suggested I buy and install another DB4 and point it towards Tacoma to get the missing channels....they suggested I use a joiner and make sure the cables are the same length to each antenna....others I have "talked" to in other forums suggesting this scenerio said it might make matters worse with "multipath" interference.....your thoughts?

I have tried ( at your suggestion) to tweek the antenna from due E to a bit SE but lose Kiro pretty fast ....

Thanks.

best wishes.

D

David
You could use a second antenna for ch13 and join them together with a Jointenna tuned for ch18. Point the second antenna at Gold Mt, SW of Bremerton, not Tacoma. You won't pickup KBTC ch28. The joiner will eliminate it. It's supposed to do that. Most people aren't that concerned with ch28 anyway. If you are, then you need another plan. Also use a 10db attenuator on the ch13 antenna before it goes into the Jointenna.
DO NOT connect the two antennas with a simple 2 way splitter. Using same length cables between identical antennas is only when you're stacking (adding) them together for more gain, pointed in the SAME direction. That's not what you want to do. With two antennas coupled, pointing different directions, each will pick everything, but not equally, or at the same time. If you were watching analog channels, it would make everything very ghosty. Digital channels won't show ghosts, but the signal will get very confusing to the tuner, and just won't lock in. Multipath is part of what will happen, but other things, too.
Yes, some people do it, and sometimes it works. I've seen it work maybe twice in many years. 98% of the time, it makes things worse.
The other way to do it is to just run another wire to the tuner, for the second antenna, and use a remote A/B antenna switch, by your tuner, and select as needed. RatShack has them for about $40.
Dan

DanKurts

12-10-05, 02:45 AM

Thanks. Just checked and I have it again now. Wonder what happened? Probably will never know.

Chuck
My wife reminds me I've lost it completely all the time, too. How did you find it again?
<grin>
Dan

DanKurts

12-10-05, 02:49 AM

Hi Dan, Thanks for all your help on this forum. Guess I started a real brew-ha-ha here :) anyway everyone on this forum is after one thing... good reception of Hi Def signals. And, it is very frustrating to invest (in my case 14K in a Home Theater setup) a lot of $$$ and not be able to use it to its fullest degree.

As far as my reception, I think the distance/weather is the major problem with the weather being the maker or breaker, Last night for instance I got all 4 major networks! I have a 8 bow tie antenna mounted approx 30 feet off the ground. I do not have any trees to the north, northwest, of me there are some trees to the northeast of me but they are at least half a mile away and I look to be above them. I live on a prairie type plateau I am not certain what the elevation is but I assume at an elevation higher then where the towers in Ski-Dattle are based.

My antenna location is set as far as lateral movement goes (none). I have adjusted its height and zeroed in at approx 5 degrees NE for the best reception with this setup. By raising the mast 10 extra feet I managed to get 4-1 which was a victory of sorts out here. I have never had any trouble recieving 13-1. On my HR10-250 receiver's noise ratio bar graph they run at 84 and 88 respectively just 5-1 and of course 7-1 are problematic. Last night 5-1 and 7-1 were coming in and they metered at 68 and 71 anything below 68 causes problems. Because the location of my mast is unmovable the only other option would be to put a second antenna perhaps on a tripod mast on the roof and tie it into the main antenna.

I, like forum junkie was told by the cable people when I moved here that I was to far from a hook up. I went with D* and also with the DirecWay Sat. Internet.
Later when HD became available with D* I purchased a 32 inch HD TV, a Hughes sat box and a 3 transponder dish and hooked it up my self all for a couple of Hi Def programs. A year ago I invested in the new home theater set up, erected the OTA to be first in line for the 2006 digital change over.....NOT! And, contrary to some thinking I would be willing to pay extra for a waiver.
With the 2 Sat dishes, a Big bow tie sticking up in the air a second antenna got the thumbs down from the wife. I have decided to wait till this spring when D*supposedly starts the local HD broadcasts in our DMA. And Dan thanks for the offer to help, you are a great asset to this forum.
Thanks

radtek
Forgot where you are, exactly. E-mail me an exact address. An idea popped into my head. Doesn't happen often, so take advantage!
Dan

david4455

12-10-05, 10:06 AM

Excellent advice..... I just googled "jointenna" and read what they are...do you know if they can be bought locally or do I have to order over the internet....

You are very kind to advise so many of us.....

best regards.

David

David
You could use a second antenna for ch13 and join them together with a Jointenna tuned for ch18. Point the second antenna at Gold Mt, SW of Bremerton, not Tacoma. You won't pickup KBTC ch28. The joiner will eliminate it. It's supposed to do that. Most people aren't that concerned with ch28 anyway. If you are, then you need another plan. Also use a 10db attenuator on the ch13 antenna before it goes into the Jointenna.
DO NOT connect the two antennas with a simple 2 way splitter. Using same length cables between identical antennas is only when you're stacking (adding) them together for more gain, pointed in the SAME direction. That's not what you want to do. With two antennas coupled, pointing different directions, each will pick everything, but not equally, or at the same time. If you were watching analog channels, it would make everything very ghosty. Digital channels won't show ghosts, but the signal will get very confusing to the tuner, and just won't lock in. Multipath is part of what will happen, but other things, too.
Yes, some people do it, and sometimes it works. I've seen it work maybe twice in many years. 98% of the time, it makes things worse.
The other way to do it is to just run another wire to the tuner, for the second antenna, and use a remote A/B antenna switch, by your tuner, and select as needed. RatShack has them for about $40.
Dan

DrCrawn

12-10-05, 03:00 PM

Duke/Texas game looks great in HD on KSTW-DT. Only stereo sound though :o

HD feed gone :mad:

it's back...

DanKurts

12-11-05, 02:47 AM

Excellent advice..... I just googled "jointenna" and read what they are...do you know if they can be bought locally or do I have to order over the internet....

You are very kind to advise so many of us.....

best regards.

David

David
Thanks, glad to help.
The place I used to buy my supplies from closed up shop, not sure who has them now. Internet probably the best place. Remember to order a ch18 for KCPQ FOX, not ch13!
Dan

wezar

12-11-05, 03:42 AM

So I hope that this is not a old question. But why is it that Saturday Night Live is Hd yet shown in letterbox on King HD?

Do they still need to throw the switch?

Budget_HT

12-11-05, 09:04 AM

So I hope that this is not a old question. But why is it that Saturday Night Live is Hd yet shown in letterbox on King HD?

Do they still need to throw the switch?

We heard earlier on one of these Seattle forums that KING shows Saturday Night Live 5 minutes later than the time the network provides the HD network feed. To do this, KING records an early time zone version and plays back their recording starting at 11:35 pm. They apparently can only record/play it in SD, not HD.

We need to convince them that the extra 5 minutes of news on Saturday night is worth less than having SNL in HD.

david4455

12-11-05, 10:10 AM

David
Thanks, glad to help.
The place I used to buy my supplies from closed up shop, not sure who has them now. Internet probably the best place. Remember to order a ch18 for KCPQ FOX, not ch13!
Dan

Thanks again Dan...Could you just tell me briefly where the jointenna goes in the cable. From the new antenna I run a cable to the jointenna and then how is is connected to the main cable going from the original antenna into the house?

David

DrCrawn

12-11-05, 04:10 PM

q13 is totally down...

it's back, and still no HD for this game

DrCrawn

12-11-05, 04:12 PM

We heard earlier on one of these Seattle forums that KING shows Saturday Night Live 5 minutes later than the time the network provides the HD network feed. To do this, KING records an early time zone version and plays back their recording starting at 11:35 pm. They apparently can only record/play it in SD, not HD.

We need to convince them that the extra 5 minutes of news on Saturday night is worth less than having SNL in HD.

the least they could do is zoom it for 16:9 sets. As it is now, I have black bars surrounding the entire picture. It's really awful actually.

The analog is framed incorrectly as well, because a simple zoom of the picture should fill the screen correctly, and it doesn't.

I'm done playing around with the picture...when KING decides it's important enough, I'll watch SNL again.

Budget_HT

12-11-05, 04:22 PM

HD is on for the Seahawks game.

I called KCPQ and left a message, and within one minute the HD was working.

Coincidence?

The voice message recorder is specific to on the air problems.

Anyway, we're in business!

DanKurts

12-11-05, 08:40 PM

Thanks again Dan...Could you just tell me briefly where the jointenna goes in the cable. From the new antenna I run a cable to the jointenna and then how is is connected to the main cable going from the original antenna into the house?

David

David
It's pretty self explanatory. It's a small box, maybe 4" x 3" x 2", has three fittings. One labled ch18, where that antenna connects, one labled ALL, which is where the other antenna goes, and one labled TO TV, where the coax from the tuner connects.
Dan

david4455

12-12-05, 09:51 AM

David
It's pretty self explanatory. It's a small box, maybe 4" x 3" x 2", has three fittings. One labled ch18, where that antenna connects, one labled ALL, which is where the other antenna goes, and one labled TO TV, where the coax from the tuner connects.
Dan

Perfect....thanks

Travis M

12-12-05, 01:12 PM

Got my HD OTA and HDTivo installed. I'm in Bellevue down the street from Crossroads.

Works great! All channels seem to come in and there is no flaky reception like with the indoor antenna. I'm very happy to be a part of the HD scene now!

Budget_HT

12-12-05, 03:21 PM

Travis,

Welcome!!!

Hi Def Fan

12-12-05, 11:58 PM

I hooked up my new HDTV a week ago (Samsung TX-R2678WH), and got 4, 5, and 7 beautifully all night long. I live at 4th & Vine about a half mile SE of the transmitters and use the rooftop antenna of our 13 story building. The antenna is not directly obstructed by any buildings as far as I know. I have a direct view out my livingroom window of the tops of all 3 transmitters, so the roof should be even better.

The very next day and since then, I have had very spotty reception on 4 and 7, often times no signal at all, while KING remains rock solid. This is ironic because KING was always the worst with my old analog set using the roof antenna. I attempted to use a directional fishbone type antenna indoors, both with and without the built in amplifier to see if I could fine tune the aim.

The signal for 4, 5, & 7 inceased 50% in strength, but 4 & 7 became worse, I assume from multipath reflecting off my apt building. The guy at the store I bought the antenna from said he had heard some customers say their reception had gotten worse in the last week.

I've been mulling over in my head everything from Christmas decorations to radar planes in trying to figure out what could cause such a thing. Tonight there is no HD Monday Night Football for me.

Once or twice a year the management of our bulding has a guy realign the antenna from the effects of wind, but when it's out of alignment it generally shows up as worse anaolg reception, which does not appear to be the case.

I would also like to know why some are talking about KCPQ and even KSTW having HD broadcasts? I assume they mean OTA broadcasts since this is an OTA forum?

I use TitanTV.com as an HD guide, I never see any HD content for KCPQ or KSTW listed, and every time I tune them in it looks like typical analog.

DanKurts

12-13-05, 02:49 AM

Hi Def Fan

12-13-05, 04:42 AM

HiDef
Try an adjustable attenuator from RatShack. Even a small indoor antenna that close can over load a tuner. If it doesn't help, you can take it back.
DanSo you think the indoor one is actually a better idea than using the roof antenna?

I guess I assumed signals too strong would show up on the TV's signal strength meter as 10 bars, but only KING showed 10 bars, and it was fine. KOMO and KIRO showed 9 bars, but were breaking up a lot.

Is there any way to tell whether the problem is signal strength, or multipath/RF interference?

I was using the Terk HDTVa as a reference, as it's the closest thing I could find locally to a Silver Sensor. Do you think the Silver Sensor would work better in my situation?

I may get a new coax cable too, the one I have is about 25' long and I only need a 12 footer. It came from Millenium Cable, they claim it is high quality quad shielded stuff, but when I had their digital pix service, my recption was not good on the high frequency (Showtime) channels. They did come out and check the shield integrity of the cable in my apt and apt building with terminators on the ends though, and said it was not a problem.

It's hard to find good quad shileded coax in 12' lengths though, I've done a fair amount of checking, and Zenith is about the only brand I could find that I trust.

Moving the coiled up part of the coax from the 2nd shelf of my TV stand down to the floor seemed to help for channel 7, but did nothing for 4.

Joe Hendrix

12-13-05, 12:07 PM

DrCrawn

12-13-05, 01:07 PM

I just bought a HDTV a couple days ago, so I'm still evaluating the picture and need others help.

I was watching the Elton John Red Piano special on King last night, and even though it was in a 16 x 9 format, the picture was pretty bad. For those of you who watched this show, what was your picture like?

So you like the look of NBC macroblocking do you :p ? Try CSI Miami or Vegas, LOST, or ABC/ESPN and CBS NFL for good picture quality.

The Elton John special didn't look all that good, no.

Joe Hendrix

12-13-05, 03:44 PM

Well, that's sort of a relief. We (or should I say "I") just bought this TV, and my wife is a big Elton fan. She was crawling out of her skin when she saw this picture. I was saying, "but look over here at the football game, doesn't the picture look great over here?". She wasn't buying my excuse that the Elton thing was not filmed using HD cameras until I got confirmation from others that it wasn't our new TV that was messing up the picture.

rdiotte

12-13-05, 06:18 PM

Ron D. --

Any word on when Comcast might add KSTW? It's less-than-optimal to have to switch from cable to antenna and rescan every time I want to watch Channel 11. :)

Wish I had something good to say about the KSTW-DT/Comcast carriage deal for Seattle OTA.
Here's the latest....As you may or may not know....Viacom is splitting into two companies....Viacom and CBS after January 1st. The cable networks are going to Viacom and the TV properties are staying at CBS.
So...any negociations for carriage of local stations with cable companies will be a new ball game after the first of the year for us....that is why I believe nothing is progressing on this issue until the new CBS corp. is up and running. It's the same reason why I haven't been able to get Millenium DM to put our digital signal on as well...no one at corporate will deal with the issue right now.
However....Comcast is ALLOWED to put KSTW DT on their system at any time...we are not the ones holding up the show. Customers need to bring pressure upon Comcast management to put us on. ;)

Ron Diotte
CE, KSTW

Mike777

12-13-05, 08:12 PM

So you like the look of NBC macroblocking do you :p ? Try CSI Miami or Vegas, LOST, or ABC/ESPN and CBS NFL for good picture quality.

The Elton John special didn't look all that good, no.

The 5.1 dolby digital sound was pretty good. The HD picture was mediocre, but certainly better than SD. As for the macroblocking, it wasn't as bad as the the big Victoria Secret special last year.

wezar

12-14-05, 12:36 AM

DrCrawn. Have you checked the replay of Victoria's Secret Fashion Show on UPN. I missed the first half but was wondering if you have compared the CBS showing to this one for quality.

DanKurts

12-14-05, 02:38 AM

So you think the indoor one is actually a better idea than using the roof antenna?

I guess I assumed signals too strong would show up on the TV's signal strength meter as 10 bars, but only KING showed 10 bars, and it was fine. KOMO and KIRO showed 9 bars, but were breaking up a lot.

Is there any way to tell whether the problem is signal strength, or multipath/RF interference?

I was using the Terk HDTVa as a reference, as it's the closest thing I could find locally to a Silver Sensor. Do you think the Silver Sensor would work better in my situation?

I may get a new coax cable too, the one I have is about 25' long and I only need a 12 footer. It came from Millenium Cable, they claim it is high quality quad shielded stuff, but when I had their digital pix service, my recption was not good on the high frequency (Showtime) channels. They did come out and check the shield integrity of the cable in my apt and apt building with terminators on the ends though, and said it was not a problem.

It's hard to find good quad shileded coax in 12' lengths though, I've done a fair amount of checking, and Zenith is about the only brand I could find that I trust.

Moving the coiled up part of the coax from the 2nd shelf of my TV stand down to the floor seemed to help for channel 7, but did nothing for 4.

hidef
I'm not sure what's going to work best there. BUT, anytime you can move cable and see picture change, you're in a strong area, and something is not terminated correctly. Also, your strength indicator is NOT strength. It's signal to noise ratio. That's why it's hard to track what works best. You won't be able to tell what the exact signal problem is by looking at your indicator. Just that more bars means your on the right track. Using quad shield is good for noise problems, but most likely won't help with ingress, or signals coming in through the cable. They come in on the ends that are not prepped right, or loose connections. Snug all connections with a wrench, just tight enough that you can't take it off with your fingers. If there's any other antenna inputs/outputs on the receiver, terminate them. Leave unused satellite connections alone, if you have them. If you want to check cable for ingress, terminate the end by using a barrel fitting(female F to female F adapter) and a terminator. You should see nothing on the indicator. If you do, terminate the antenna input to see if any is coming in on the receivers tuner.
Dan

DrCrawn

12-15-05, 02:46 PM

DrCrawn. Have you checked the replay of Victoria's Secret Fashion Show on UPN. I missed the first half but was wondering if you have compared the CBS showing to this one for quality.

No, I missed it. I too wanted to compare, but forgot about it. :p

Hi Def Fan

12-17-05, 01:58 AM

You won't be able to tell what the exact signal problem is by looking at your indicator. Just that more bars means your on the right track. ...but most likely won't help with ingress, or signals coming in through the cable. They come in on the ends that are not prepped right, or loose connections. If there's any other antenna inputs/outputs on the receiver, terminate them. If you want to check cable for ingress, terminate the end by using a barrel fitting(female F to female F adapter) and a terminator. You should see nothing on the indicator. If you do, terminate the antenna input to see if any is coming in on the receivers tuner.I just got a different coax cable that appears to be more modern, I can see the texture of braid shielding under it's sheath. It was an unused piece left by Millenium in one of the units, and is probably from later install than mine was.

Anyway, using it and lifting the cable farther away from both the surge protector and the baseboard heater at the wall jack end seemed to help a lot. What's strange is that the signal indicator dropped for 7, but it doesn't break up.

I don't use a separate receiver or tuner box, only the TV's tuner. There are two antenna inputs on it, but one is for Cable or STB (Satellite?) I believe. When I tried hooking both the roof antenna and indoor antenna to the two inputs, it would not allow me to switch between the two via the antenna button on the remote. I assume this means I don't need a terminator on the other input then?

I will try the ingress check you mentioned, thanks a lot for that one. It may be that the wiring inside the wall (behind the roof antenna coax jack) is not prepped right at the ends, but Millenium did come out with a team of 3 guys once and check all the cable from my apt to the street level with terminators. They even found a break in the casing of the 1/2" underground cable coming to our building (due to being cut too short) and fixed that.

I'd like to set this up without having to use a switching box to go from the roof antenna to an indoor. As it is now I'm getting 4, 5, and 7 in clear with no breakups in picture or sound, but I'm seeing sometimes only 5 or 6 bars mostly on 7 now. I don't know how it's possible to get stable reception with only 5 bars, but I guess it's not an indicator of strength like you said, it's hard to tell by the bars.

I can actually get reception with nothing hooked to the TV, the signal meter showing as low as 3 bars. I hope an attenuator will keep things more consistent. The signal meter and reception quality changes a lot.

The main thing I want to do now is check the cable and TV tuner like you mentioned. I don't see any way I can check the cable in the wall though.