I am having the same problem. I am near Martha Lake and cannot get 5-1 to settle down. I am at 148th PL SW and 2nd Ave W. Using a 4228

Duane

I just south of you on the east side of Martha Lake and can get 5 without issues. It's likely that something close by, like a tree is interfering with your reception of that station. Have you tried moving your antenna around to see if it gets better? Not only different locations on your roof, but also lower and higher? That might help.

Also, I'd highly recommend a 4221 over the 4228. I started with a 4228 and when I moved to a 4221 I found it much easier to get all the Queen Anne stations and KCPQ at the same time. With the 4228 I had to take a pretty good hit on signal strength of the Queen Anne stations to get KCPQ reliably, with the 4221 all my stations ended up coming in slightly higher, and easier. I also found that raising my antenna up a few feet helped a lot.

I have tried rotating but not up and down. I used an extension off of my DTV antenna so pretty convenient, not so eay to move to dif location but worth a shot.

I guess I am a wee bit north of you, Northlake Woods subdivision.

Been trying for days to get this to you peoples in our area, with reception probs and that are waiting for the HD locals on satellite.

I talked at length with a senior tech at Direct about the new 5lnb dish, as I have a lot of customers that use 2 and 3 dishes to get signal through the trees. I was worried we would have to go through some wierd gyrations to get more satellites.
No sweat.
The eye opener was that the new satellites at 99 and 103 degrees are just for sending local HD stations to the major markets. If you have local HD off an antenna, then you'll still get ALL the other satellite channels, including all the HD ones, with a regular triple lnb dish and HD receiver. And, the local HD they're going to provide is only ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX. If you need more, like PBS, UPN, WB, etc, then it's antenna time.
So, you don't need to upgrade your Tivo or dish unless you need the local HD from Direct. Also, the mpeg4 signal and receiver is not going to make your picture any better than it is now, including HD. It's just to get more channels into the same bandwidth. Again, upgrading isn't going to improve your picture, if it's already working okay.
Here's a site where they actually run through an install, and give a lot of other info about it all.
http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp

Breathing easier, now.....!
Dan

Been trying for days to get this to you peoples in our area, with reception probs and that are waiting for the HD locals on satellite.

I talked at length with a senior tech at Direct about the new 5lnb dish, as I have a lot of customers that use 2 and 3 dishes to get signal through the trees. I was worried we would have to go through some wierd gyrations to get more satellites.
No sweat.
The eye opener was that the new satellites at 99 and 103 degrees are just for sending local HD stations to the major markets. If you have local HD off an antenna, then you'll still get ALL the other satellite channels, including all the HD ones, with a regular triple lnb dish and HD receiver. And, the local HD they're going to provide is only ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX. If you need more, like PBS, UPN, WB, etc, then it's antenna time.
So, you don't need to upgrade your Tivo or dish unless you need the local HD from Direct. Also, the mpeg4 signal and receiver is not going to make your picture any better than it is now, including HD. It's just to get more channels into the same bandwidth. Again, upgrading isn't going to improve your picture, if it's already working okay.
Here's a site where they actually run through an install, and give a lot of other info about it all.
http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp

Breathing easier, now.....!
Dan

Dan, any word from your DirecTV contact on when the Seattle HD locals will be available?

Also, for those of us that do need multiple older dishes to "see" all three of the current satellite locations due to trees, how will we add the new MPEG4 satellites at 99 and 103 while keeping our current dishes for the current MPEG2 satellites?

Dan Kurts,

I just wanted to say I went to Rat Shack, bought their 0-20db attenuator, male to male coupler, female to female coupler, and a terminator cap.

In my testing, I found the attenuator didn't help at all, just made the signal weaker and thus it cut out more. I suspect that although I'm very close to the transmitters, since I'm on the 7th floor of a 13 story building (4th & Vine), the 70 plus feet of cable connecting me to the roof antenna is where I'm losing signal strength.

In terminating the 20' and 25' cables I had, and TV antenna output, I didn't find anything usefull there either, as the cable that appeared to have the better shielding didn't work as well for reception.

I was getting some amount of signal whether terminating either of the cables or the antenna input on the TV (in some cases no picture, but a couple of bars on the meter).

Even more strange, the 12' Gold Series cable I ended up buying from Rat Shack picked up 4, 5, and 7 even when terminated.

Now one might assume that the Rat Shack cable is junk, and has terrible shielding, but I kept it because it boosted the signal meter on the TV about two bars per channel! That's an average of over 30% increase in signal.

It also seems to be less vulnerable to position, and more consistent in keeping the signal coming in. I now get about 7 bars on channel 4, 8 on channel 7, and 9 on channel 5.

I returned all other items to Rat Shack. I can only assume that in my situation, shielding is NOT the key issue, but rather how well the cable conducts the signal itself.
____________________________________________________________ ____

I do have one other question for you though Dan.

I get KCPQ 13's analog signal pretty good, but can't seem to pick up their digital signal. The channel 13 tech said I should be able to pick up the digital if I can pick up the analog. I try entering 13 again when the 13 Air signal comes on, then 18 and 25. It never shows 13.1 DTV, it will show 18.0, or 25.0, but with no signal.

The channel 13 engineer wondered if our old roof antenna is not UHF capable, saying everything 13 and up is UHF. Could this be the case? An indoor antenna is not an option to me for 13, as our brick, concrete and steel building obstructs it. I only have line of sight out my window for 4, 5 and 7, though I've found the roof antenna works best there.

Thanks Dan, nice to have you to answer our questions here. Best wishes on the holidays to you and your family.

Dan, any word from your DirecTV contact on when the Seattle HD locals will be available?

Also, for those of us that do need multiple older dishes to "see" all three of the current satellite locations due to trees, how will we add the new MPEG4 satellites at 99 and 103 while keeping our current dishes for the current MPEG2 satellites?

litzdog911
I asked the same question of when, and he said what everyone else says in the "industry", first quarter 06 for local Seattle hd on satellite. I've heard this song before from them about various improvements, so I'll beleive it when I see it.
He did seem very sure about it, though, and quite serious.

Now, for the multiple dish thing.
If you watched al the training videos on that website, you'll understand some of the problem. The main head is actually a wide angle 99-101-103 lnb. However, the 99 & 103 signals are a different frequency. It all gets separated in the receiver tuner. You can still use three dishes in total, but you'll need to use their new one for the main one, and then couple in the 110 & 119. However, since the new satellites require a new switch, I'm not sure if you can couple them, for a variety of small reasons. The engineer said it could be done, so I'm going to get one of the new dishes and try it. If they use the standard F-fitting outputs, which he said they did, then you should be able to couple them. You would use the two leads coming out of the side of the new lnb (check the training video), one for each.

Now for the bad news.
For those that use their satellite cable to diplex their antenna signal, you won't be able to do it anymore. The new down converted frequency, for the 99 & 103 sats, is between 250mhz and 750mhz. UHF off-air is between 450mhz and 820mhz. That means you'll have to run a new lead in wire for the off-air antenna.

But wait, there's more good news! According to the training video, and the engineer, you can't use copper clad steel core RG6. It must be solid copper core. They claim there's too much power loss. Geeeze! You mean they couldn't just spend $3 more for a beefier power supply in the receivers?!?!
For now, I'll wait to see if that's really true before I condemn all those regular RG6 runs out there. It also means that Spaun and similar switch makers will have to make new ones. If you have a big switch now, more than 4 ports, it will need to be replaced. It's not a total reinventing of the existing switches, just that they have to allow the lower freqeuncy to pass through rather than be blocked, and probably add another amp for that band. Shouldn't take them long to do that. They'll still use the same 22khz tone switching for the B & C satellites, and 13v/18v signaling as before. When you pick a channel on the receiver that's for the new satellites, it will simply look at the UHF band aggregate feed instead. There's also a mpeg2 to mpeg4 converter that comes with the receiver that goes in line with the satellite cable, right behind the receiver.

So, if you can get 99, 101 & 103 signals through the notch in trees that your 101 comes through now, you'll probably be okay. The other two dishes for 110 & 119 can stay as they are. However, if your notch for the 101 sat is too narrow, you have a problem. Coupling the 99-101-103 lnbs together won't be easy without major surgery, if at all. Methinks it's possible, but costly.
Also, the new dish is like the bigger Channel Master High Gain satellite dish, 24" x 30", but heavier, with more adjustments, hardware, and uses the larger foot and 2" mast. You'll have to make sure it's got a very solid mounting spot, and it has a bigger wind load, too.

Again, though, if you don't need those four local HD channels they're sending, then you don't need the new dish and receiver upgrade. It's not going to make the other 99% of what they send any better than what you get now. Sure, it's nice to have the latest stuff, but if it's not something you'll use, why have a 4WD in Palm Beach?!

There's more we'll find out about as we go along setting these up, I'm sure. Waiting right now for an answer from my satellite meter folks on upgrades. But, even that can still be aimed with existing equipment.

For most users, that should be what you need to know.
If you have other questions, fire away.
Dan

Dan Kurts,

I just wanted to say I went to Rat Shack, bought their 0-20db attenuator, male to male coupler, female to female coupler, and a terminator cap.

In my testing, I found the attenuator didn't help at all, just made the signal weaker and thus it cut out more. I suspect that although I'm very close to the transmitters, since I'm on the 7th floor of a 13 story building (4th & Vine), the 70 plus feet of cable connecting me to the roof antenna is where I'm losing signal strength.

In terminating the 20' and 25' cables I had, and TV antenna output, I didn't find anything usefull there either, as the cable that appeared to have the better shielding didn't work as well for reception.

I was getting some amount of signal whether terminating either of the cables or the antenna input on the TV (in some cases no picture, but a couple of bars on the meter).

Even more strange, the 12' Gold Series cable I ended up buying from Rat Shack picked up 4, 5, and 7 even when terminated.

Now one might assume that the Rat Shack cable is junk, and has terrible shielding, but I kept it because it boosted the signal meter on the TV about two bars per channel! That's an average of over 30% increase in signal.

It also seems to be less vulnerable to position, and more consistent in keeping the signal coming in. I now get about 7 bars on channel 4, 8 on channel 7, and 9 on channel 5.

I returned all other items to Rat Shack. I can only assume that in my situation, shielding is NOT the key issue, but rather how well the cable conducts the signal itself.
____________________________________________________________ ____

I do have one other question for you though Dan.

I get KCPQ 13's analog signal pretty good, but can't seem to pick up their digital signal. The channel 13 tech said I should be able to pick up the digital if I can pick up the analog. I try entering 13 again when the 13 Air signal comes on, then 18 and 25. It never shows 13.1 DTV, it will show 18.0, or 25.0, but with no signal.

The channel 13 engineer wondered if our old roof antenna is not UHF capable, saying everything 13 and up is UHF. Could this be the case? An indoor antenna is not an option to me for 13, as our brick, concrete and steel building obstructs it. I only have line of sight out my window for 4, 5 and 7, though I've found the roof antenna works best there.

Thanks Dan, nice to have you to answer our questions here. Best wishes on the holidays to you and your family.

HiDef
What the cable test proves is that you DO have a lot of signal there. The RatShack cables are acting as antennas and, in your case, actually helping.

If you get ANY analog signal from a particular station, it only means MAYBE you'll get HD reception. Also, UHF starts at ch 14, about 470mhz. CH13 is less than half that at 211mhz. Ch18 UHF is what ch13 broadcasts their HD on. It will show up on some tuners as 18-1, when the mapping is not working, 13-1 when it is. It's still the same HD channel. Ch25 is ch22 KTWB's HD channel. You probably won't be able to get it if your windows only face north.
Your roof antenna must be UHF capable if you're getting the others.
CH13 comes from the west, so if the roof antenna is pointed north, it's supposed to NOT look west at 13, or east at 9, 11, and 22. Coupling in a ch13 antenna is not difficult there, but trying to add 9-11-22 would tough. It might be possible to get them all with some new antennas, and a ch13 coupler, though. A survey would would find the answer to that. Ask the landlord to think about it.

Thank you for the Good Cheer, and Merry Christmas to you! (Hey, Christmas is a word and meaning I enjoy, PC people will just have to tough it out for one day a year!)

AND, while we're on it, Merry Happy to all the others out there in Forum Land.
Thank you for making it a fun year, looking forward to more!
Dan

DanKurts and all,

I read somewhere in the AVSForum a month or two ago that the 110/119 LNB input connectors on the new LNB/MS for the new dish are not standard F-connectors. They are smaller and more BNC-like, but it was not clear whether they were some standard miniature connector or something proprietary.

This was being discussed in conversations about combining old and new dishes where 110 and 119 dishes needed to be mounted in different places than the 101 dish.

Hi everybody,

I'm hoping to set up an OTA HD system and after reading through this forum I figure if anyone can give me the right answers you guys can.

I've checked antennaweb website and I'm in a red zone as far as reception. I live just south of the intersection of 204th Str. SW an 21st Pl. W. , Lynnwood 98036. From the other posts I've read it looks like I may or may not have a hill or two between me and Capital Hill/Queen Anne.

If I'm fortunate enough not to have a hill between me and the antennas, I'm wondering what antennas you guys would recommend I try and where I should buy them. I intend on mounting the antenna to my chimney. So far, some posters from my area have reported having had success with the silver sensor, and Channelmater 4221 and 4228.

Thanks
David

DanKurts and all,

I read somewhere in the AVSForum a month or two ago that the 110/119 LNB input connectors on the new LNB/MS for the new dish are not standard F-connectors. They are smaller and more BNC-like, but it was not clear whether they were some standard miniature connector or something proprietary.

This was being discussed in conversations about combining old and new dishes where 110 and 119 dishes needed to be mounted in different places than the 101 dish.

Budget_HT
I noticed that in the training film. Asked the tech, he couldn't remember the exact flavor of the fitting, but said it could be adapted to F type. If nothing else, new fittings or cables could be made. I'm sure we can make it work.
Looking forward to playing with one.
Dan

Hi everybody,

I'm hoping to set up an OTA HD system and after reading through this forum I figure if anyone can give me the right answers you guys can.

I've checked antennaweb website and I'm in a red zone as far as reception. I live just south of the intersection of 204th Str. SW an 21st Pl. W. , Lynnwood 98036. From the other posts I've read it looks like I may or may not have a hill or two between me and Capital Hill/Queen Anne.

If I'm fortunate enough not to have a hill between me and the antennas, I'm wondering what antennas you guys would recommend I try and where I should buy them. I intend on mounting the antenna to my chimney. So far, some posters from my area have reported having had success with the silver sensor, and Channelmater 4221 and 4228.

Thanks
David

David
There is a hill to the SW, but it most likely won't affect you. Try a 4221.
Dan

Thanks for your insights Dan.......
I thought of some related questions, is there any reason why I should consider a combination UHF/VHF antenna instead of a UHF only type like the 4221? I've read somewhere that after all the stations switch to 100% digital in the near future (as per FCC regulations), that many digital stations may switch to VHF. Also, is there any reason why I might want to capture analog signals right now using a combo antenna?

Thanks
David

Thanks for your insights Dan.......
I thought of some related questions, is there any reason why I should consider a combination UHF/VHF antenna instead of a UHF only type like the 4221? I've read somewhere that after all the stations switch to 100% digital in the near future (as per FCC regulations), that many digital stations may switch to VHF. Also, is there any reason why I might want to capture analog signals right now using a combo antenna?

Thanks
David

David
Combo antennas use a yagi style UHF antenna on the front, and a VHF section on the back. Usually you won't get much UHF reception from the smaller front UHF section. A similar yagi style UHF only antenna will actually be smaller in length and better. But, a yagi may be too narrow in reception for your location. The 4221 is a wide reception bow tie style that will do a better job of pulling the stations from 3 different directions, where you are.
Going for analog will not be pretty. It will work, but I doubt it will be up to what you would call a good picture. There will be some to a lot of ghosting, depending on the channel. There's no need for watching analog, when digital will come in, ghost and noise free, for all the same channels.
Last, only ch11, I believe has opted to go back to VHF for digital, when the switch is finally pulled. Which, by the way, will be farther out than what the rules state. Too many stations and consumers haven't stepped up enough to make it viable yet. The rest of the stations here will stay UHF. After investing all that money in new antennas and transmitting gear, I doubt they're going to want to do it again.
Dan

Thanks for your insights Dan.......
I thought of some related questions, is there any reason why I should consider a combination UHF/VHF antenna instead of a UHF only type like the 4221? I've read somewhere that after all the stations switch to 100% digital in the near future (as per FCC regulations), that many digital stations may switch to VHF. Also, is there any reason why I might want to capture analog signals right now using a combo antenna?

Thanks
David

Yes, several stations have applied to go back to their VHF frequency. These are not yet final, but probably will happen (from the FCC website, round two):

KCPQ 13 instead of 18
KCTS 9 instead of 41
KSTW 11 instead of 36

All the rest in our area have applied for the same UHF frequency they currently use. Many UHF antennas will pick up the high-VHF (7-13) channels if you're not too far away. I think a 4221 will work for you in this case, but no guarantees.

Here's the FCC document in pdf: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf

Dan,

Looks like you're the expert on HD reception, so here goes... Thanks in advance!

I'm at the corner of NE 159th St. and 181st Pl. NE, in the Cottage Lakes area of Woodinville.

I've got a mast, about 8 feet worth, at the top of the roof of our 2 story house.

First attempt with a Radio Shack 15-2185 and amplifier got me channel 1331 (KWPX-DT) - disappointing because not only is it a station I never watch to begin with, it's also has no HD programming.

Second try is a ChannelMaster 3010 StealthAntenna (similar design and size, better brand?), no amp, got me 1331 plus 1451 (KHCV-DT) - shopping channel, great, and still no HD.

So I figure I'm either in just the wrong spot or need a bigger antenna?

Thanks,
Maurice

Thanks Dan and Quarque,

Looks like I'll try out the CM 4221.......does anyone know if there is a local retailer I can order this from or is it better to order it over the internet.

Thanks
David

Dan,

Looks like you're the expert on HD reception, so here goes... Thanks in advance!

I'm at the corner of NE 159th St. and 181st Pl. NE, in the Cottage Lakes area of Woodinville.

I've got a mast, about 8 feet worth, at the top of the roof of our 2 story house.

First attempt with a Radio Shack 15-2185 and amplifier got me channel 1331 (KWPX-DT) - disappointing because not only is it a station I never watch to begin with, it's also has no HD programming.

Second try is a ChannelMaster 3010 StealthAntenna (similar design and size, better brand?), no amp, got me 1331 plus 1451 (KHCV-DT) - shopping channel, great, and still no HD.

So I figure I'm either in just the wrong spot or need a bigger antenna?

Thanks,
Maurice

Maurice
You're on the back side of Hollywood hill, about a mile SW of you. The signals from Seattle are probably a good 150ft above you, allowing for all the trees on the hilltop, too. The stations you're getting are to the SE, and are line of sight.
Sorry, bad spot.
Dan

Dan,

Thanks - better bad news than to keep guessing. And good point about the direction of the ones I'm getting, I had that raw data but hadn't looked at it that way. Makes perfect sense.

Maurice

Dan, quarque and all:

Looks like I've stumbled on a good resource here! Santa brought me a DirecTV HD/Tivo box for Christmas, and now I'm trying to figure out if I can pick up the OTA channels from Seattle.

I live on Union Hill, east of Redmond. Cross streets are NE Ames Lake Rd & NE Quail Creek Dr, Redmond, WA 98053. Anyone willing to give me a diagnosis on my OTA chances? (Antenna web says I need a green/yellow antenna.)

Also, do you think I can put the antenna in the attic? How much of a signal degredation is there when going this route (vs. putting on the roof)?

Thanks in advance!!!

-X-

X:

I live in Sammamish and have a ten-year old RS antenna in my attic. I get OTA HD on all channels (4.1, 5.1, 7.1, etc) except 13 (Tacoma). I would like to hear more about how you like your setup...I have DishNet w/o HD receivers and am in process of deciding whether to stay with DN or move to DirecTV or Comcast.

BTW anyone have any opinion on whether it is possible to orient my antenna in a direction that would allow me to get Channel 13.1 AND the Seattle HD stations?

Dan, quarque and all:

Looks like I've stumbled on a good resource here! Santa brought me a DirecTV HD/Tivo box for Christmas, and now I'm trying to figure out if I can pick up the OTA channels from Seattle.

I live on Union Hill, east of Redmond. Cross streets are NE Ames Lake Rd & NE Quail Creek Dr, Redmond, WA 98053. Anyone willing to give me a diagnosis on my OTA chances? (Antenna web says I need a green/yellow antenna.)

Also, do you think I can put the antenna in the attic? How much of a signal degredation is there when going this route (vs. putting on the roof)?

Thanks in advance!!!

-X-
You have a hill to the west that is partially blocking your path. I think you will need to put your antenna on a short mast on the roof. If you have lots of trees to go through it may be tough. I'd say your chances are better than 50%. I have a friend who lives a few blocks from you on 277th Pl. but alas, he is not into HD or TV at all.

DJB64 - orientation should not make that much difference from your area. If you can't get 13 it is more likely due to reflections or a blockage. Try relocating your antenna in 6-inch increments up,down,left,right.

DJB64,

I've been with DirecTV since 98, and love it! My cable option is Millenium Digital, and frankly it's awful (tried it for a couple months). Picture quality is horrible and customer service is worse. I don't know much about Dish, but currently DirecTV only has a handful of HD channels. Not really worth the monthly fee, but Santa surprised me with this tuner (I was going to wait a while longer). They are supposed to roll out the rest of their channels in HD in early 2006. We'll see I guess. I've read getting the local HD signals over the dish will require a new dish, so I'm going to attempt to pick them up on antenna since the tuner supports it. Will post more once I've given it a try.

Thanks for the info!

-X-

Hi All,

Thought I'd ask for input and see what you think an appropriate antenna would be. Like many here, I'm wanting to dump Comcast because we only watch network HD channels. I setup a Media Center PC and am using an ATI HDTV wonder (without an analog tuner) with Windows Media Center 2005.

I show 4/5 to 5/5 for all the Seattle (Queen Anne) channels using the cheap 12" HDTV antenna that was included with the ATI video card. To be honest, I'm really impressed with the HD out of this tiny cheap antenna. Last night I watched a little HDTV on the various channels and was generally pleased with the potential. I did get some picture breakup, at times, leading me to believe that I probably should invest in a better antenna. My little antenna is just sitting on a shelf by the computer.

I'm on the west facing slope of Mercer Island (near the crest of the hill) and would have line of sight to queen anne if my neighbor didn't have 8-10 large trees. I was thinking a CM 4228 or 4221, but I'm wondering if they might be overkill. Someone mentioned the radio shack 15-2160. I already have a mast mounted, so that seems like it could be an option.

Any suggestions or thoughts on antennas? Ideally I'd like to buy locally so I don't have to wait for an online order to arrive, and hassle with online returns.

Also, for the coax cables... should I try to buy the right length with ends attached, or cut to length and attach the ends? Thanks.

You have a hill to the west that is partially blocking your path. I think you will need to put your antenna on a short mast on the roof. If you have lots of trees to go through it may be tough. I'd say your chances are better than 50%. I have a friend who lives a few blocks from you on 277th Pl. but alas, he is not into HD or TV at all.

Thanks for the info! Now for the tough question. Does anyone know if there are professional installation companies that will come out and test the signal somehow, plus do the install? I'm willing to pay to get job done right, since I don't care to crawl around on my roof. Also, I'm worried my homeowner's association wouldn't care for me putting an antenna on the roof. :(

X:

I live in Sammamish and have a ten-year old RS antenna in my attic. I get OTA HD on all channels (4.1, 5.1, 7.1, etc) except 13 (Tacoma). I would like to hear more about how you like your setup...I have DishNet w/o HD receivers and am in process of deciding whether to stay with DN or move to DirecTV or Comcast.

BTW anyone have any opinion on whether it is possible to orient my antenna in a direction that would allow me to get Channel 13.1 AND the Seattle HD stations?

I would stay with Dish if you are into HD. You will need access to the 129 satellite, this can be done by either adding another dish 500 (assuming that is what you have now) by pointing to 129, or even better...get a dish 1000 which will give you all 3 satellites (110, 119 & 129) in one small footprint. Then you need to choose an hd receiver. I would go with the new 411 single tuner, or 322 dual tuner (avail in feb). If dvr is a necessity wait till February for the 622 (all are MPEG 2 & 4 capable). As long as you have OTA hd, dish is the better choice with more channels and better PQ than direct or comcast.

Hi All,

Thought I'd ask for input and see what you think an appropriate antenna would be. Like many here, I'm wanting to dump Comcast because we only watch network HD channels. I setup a Media Center PC and am using an ATI HDTV wonder (without an analog tuner) with Windows Media Center 2005.

I show 4/5 to 5/5 for all the Seattle (Queen Anne) channels using the cheap 12" HDTV antenna that was included with the ATI video card. To be honest, I'm really impressed with the HD out of this tiny cheap antenna. Last night I watched a little HDTV on the various channels and was generally pleased with the potential. I did get some picture breakup, at times, leading me to believe that I probably should invest in a better antenna. My little antenna is just sitting on a shelf by the computer.

I'm on the west facing slope of Mercer Island (near the crest of the hill) and would have line of sight to queen anne if my neighbor didn't have 8-10 large trees. I was thinking a CM 4228 or 4221, but I'm wondering if they might be overkill. Someone mentioned the radio shack 15-2160. I already have a mast mounted, so that seems like it could be an option.

Any suggestions or thoughts on antennas? Ideally I'd like to buy locally so I don't have to wait for an online order to arrive, and hassle with online returns.

Also, for the coax cables... should I try to buy the right length with ends attached, or cut to length and attach the ends? Thanks.

platbr
Try the 15-2160, first. It might just do the job. Signal can be strong there. A 4228 is overkill, the 4221 would work far better, if the 15-2160 doesn't do it.
Cable length isn't going to be that big an issue, for you, so just buy premade RG6 cables, as close as you can to what you need, and tie up the excess in a small 6" diameter roll.
Dan

Thanks for the info! Now for the tough question. Does anyone know if there are professional installation companies that will come out and test the signal somehow, plus do the install? I'm willing to pay to get job done right, since I don't care to crawl around on my roof. Also, I'm worried my homeowner's association wouldn't care for me putting an antenna on the roof. :(

Xerxes480
I can help you with that. Call anytime.
Dan
206-794-3993

Damn, almost the entire Top Ten of Letterman tonight got cut off by a commercial. I know it's a repeat but...wth KIRO?

Xerxes480
I can help you with that. Call anytime.
Dan
206-794-3993

Thanks Dan. I will be calling you in the next day or two.

Christian AKA Xerxes480

Dan, Quarque, I'm near 265th NE and NE 24th east of Redmond. According to topozone I'm about 400 feet elevation. I have direct line of sight from SE to SW of me (roughly N of Mt Si to W of Tiger Mt) but can't see any Seattle towers. How are my chances of picking up OTA HD signals from Seattle (If I follow NE 24th on Topozone I think I'm about the same elevation as Sahale golf course)?

Thanks,

TU

Dan, Quarque, I'm near 265th NE and NE 24th east of Redmond. According to topozone I'm about 400 feet elevation. I have direct line of sight from SE to SW of me (roughly N of Mt Si to W of Tiger Mt) but can't see any Seattle towers. How are my chances of picking up OTA HD signals from Seattle (If I follow NE 24th on Topozone I think I'm about the same elevation as Sahale golf course)?

Thanks,

TU
Yes you are at about 400 feet. Your main concern is in the westerly direction where all the major stations are. About 3 miles west of you is a 570-foot hill that is blocking most or all of your direct signals. You will, however, get some refracted signal off that crest. So it looks dicey but we have seen people succeed in similar situations. You will want a good antenna on a mast on the roof.

Before you invest a lot of time and money you might borrow a receiver and antenna (or buy a cheap antenna like the RS 15-2160) and see if you get anything at all with the RS as high up as practical on a temporary mount. If it is halfway reliable, you should proceed with a permanent install.

After having good reception for several months I lost consistant signal with my problem channel KOMO. After trying to tweak the antenna around the spot where it was working before I took the antenna from the side of the house (chimney) I took it to the back deck and found I was getting good numbers (dish 942) for KOMO tonight. Peak numbers at 80 which is the best I've gotten. This is with a cm4228. Haven't tried to fine tune it too much but the signal peaks at a decent number then within a few seconds drops down to 60 or below and I loose picture. Any idea why it fluctuates so much? Any suggestions would be welcome. Address is 16704 3rd Dr SE, Bothell (Mill Creek) 98012.

After having good reception for several months I lost consistant signal with my problem channel KOMO. After trying to tweak the antenna around the spot where it was working before I took the antenna from the side of the house (chimney) I took it to the back deck and found I was getting good numbers (dish 942) for KOMO tonight. Peak numbers at 80 which is the best I've gotten. This is with a cm4228. Haven't tried to fine tune it too much but the signal peaks at a decent number then within a few seconds drops down to 60 or below and I loose picture. Any idea why it fluctuates so much? Any suggestions would be welcome. Address is 16704 3rd Dr SE, Bothell (Mill Creek) 98012.

Mine reception, a few blocks from you, has been rock solid. I'm guessing all that wind we've been having is moving trees around and messing with your reception of channels your barely receiving. This has been happening a lot with KCTS for me. Anytime the wind picks up KCTS starts dropping out.

platbr
Try the 15-2160, first. It might just do the job. Signal can be strong there. A 4228 is overkill, the 4221 would work far better, if the 15-2160 doesn't do it.
Cable length isn't going to be that big an issue, for you, so just buy premade RG6 cables, as close as you can to what you need, and tie up the excess in a small 6" diameter roll.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I bought the 15-2160 and will install it today or tomorrow. I'm hopeful that it will provide better reception than the free HDTV antenna that came with the video card. Like you suggested, I just bought the pre-made RG6 cables. Thanks again for the tips.

Brian

Yes you are at about 400 feet. Your main concern is in the westerly direction where all the major stations are. About 3 miles west of you is a 570-foot hill that is blocking most or all of your direct signals. You will, however, get some refracted signal off that crest. So it looks dicey but we have seen people succeed in similar situations. You will want a good antenna on a mast on the roof.

Before you invest a lot of time and money you might borrow a receiver and antenna (or buy a cheap antenna like the RS 15-2160) and see if you get anything at all with the RS as high up as practical on a temporary mount. If it is halfway reliable, you should proceed with a permanent install.

Thanks! related question: I have some tall trees on my property. would mounting the antenna to the top of one of them provide better reception than on my roof or would the wind moving the tree around cause reception problems?

Thanks! related question: I have some tall trees on my property. would mounting the antenna to the top of one of them provide better reception than on my roof or would the wind moving the tree around cause reception problems?
Well, generally higher is better. But if it is aiming right through the thickest part of surrounding tree foliage it may be worse than half way down the tree. I would start out on the roof since that is far easier to deal with. Several AVS people have mounted antennas in trees and the swaying does not seem to matter, signalwise. But tree climbing is not for amateurs. It has to be carefully planned and executed.

After having good reception for several months I lost consistant signal with my problem channel KOMO. After trying to tweak the antenna around the spot where it was working before I took the antenna from the side of the house (chimney) I took it to the back deck and found I was getting good numbers (dish 942) for KOMO tonight. Peak numbers at 80 which is the best I've gotten. This is with a cm4228. Haven't tried to fine tune it too much but the signal peaks at a decent number then within a few seconds drops down to 60 or below and I loose picture. Any idea why it fluctuates so much? Any suggestions would be welcome. Address is 16704 3rd Dr SE, Bothell (Mill Creek) 98012.
The same thing happened to me with KOMO a couple months ago. It was flawless for 3 years. I had to drag out the old RS double-bowtie and reconnect via my A-B switch. Something changed in the signal path and blocked out KOMO. But my RS is inside, about 10 feet lower than the one on the chimney and it pulls in KOMO fine. Damn trees - they just keep growing! Some day I will play with the outside antenna so I can remove the A-B...

Well, generally higher is better. But if it is aiming right through the thickest part of surrounding tree foliage it may be worse than half way down the tree. I would start out on the roof since that is far easier to deal with. Several AVS people have mounted antennas in trees and the swaying does not seem to matter, signalwise. But tree climbing is not for amateurs. It has to be carefully planned and executed.

Thank You!!

After having good reception for several months I lost consistant signal with my problem channel KOMO. After trying to tweak the antenna around the spot where it was working before I took the antenna from the side of the house (chimney) I took it to the back deck and found I was getting good numbers (dish 942) for KOMO tonight. Peak numbers at 80 which is the best I've gotten. This is with a cm4228. Haven't tried to fine tune it too much but the signal peaks at a decent number then within a few seconds drops down to 60 or below and I loose picture. Any idea why it fluctuates so much? Any suggestions would be welcome. Address is 16704 3rd Dr SE, Bothell (Mill Creek) 98012.


Chuck
This is a classic case of what makes finding that sweet spot so frustrating.

When you get right on the ragged edge of minimum signal level, (NOT the numbers on your tuners "strength" display) and something changes just slightly, the decoder will avalanche, or just loose a lock on the signal. It doesn't do it gradually, like analog signals, where you have degrees of ghosting, snow, etc. Once it regains that level again and locks, though, it's a perfect picture and good "numbers" again. What you can't see is when it's working with a very weak amount.

The other thing that also produces the same effect is a chopped up signal, when viewed on a scope. Trees are notorious for doing that. Levels could be good to very high, but, because the signal is so wide, (6mhz) it could have portions that are very weak, and the decoder just won't lock. It can equalize the signal, somewhat, from what looks like a sawtooth or roller coaster pattern, to flatter waveshape. However, changes of more than about 10db are usually beyond its capability.

Now, combine the two problems, with a moving wall of wood, (trees swaying in the wind that are in the path) and add a quarter to half mile of them, as in your case, and you have the Grinch that stole your Holiday!

You're not alone. I had dozen or so calls after the Nisqually earthquake for jobs that were going through the trees just fine, and now were only fair to just plain gone.
Patience will win out. Just retry everything. What was dead before may now be fine, so don't rule out any spot.

Dan

Hi,
I am in the fairwood area, and have had audio problems with all my digital ota channels since the last 10 days. The picture is perfect but the audio is almost not there. Anyone else seeing this? My receiver is the samsung DIRECTV with OTA.

Dan, you had set this up for me Sep 2004. If there are no ideas here on whats happening here, I will give you a call :-)

Thanks

Chuck
This is a classic case of what makes finding that sweet spot so frustrating.

When you get right on the ragged edge of minimum signal level, (NOT the numbers on your tuners "strength" display) and something changes just slightly, the decoder will avalanche, or just loose a lock on the signal. It doesn't do it gradually, like analog signals, where you have degrees of ghosting, snow, etc. Once it regains that level again and locks, though, it's a perfect picture and good "numbers" again. What you can't see is when it's working with a very weak amount.

The other thing that also produces the same effect is a chopped up signal, when viewed on a scope. Trees are notorious for doing that. Levels could be good to very high, but, because the signal is so wide, (6mhz) it could have portions that are very weak, and the decoder just won't lock. It can equalize the signal, somewhat, from what looks like a sawtooth or roller coaster pattern, to flatter waveshape. However, changes of more than about 10db are usually beyond its capability.

Now, combine the two problems, with a moving wall of wood, (trees swaying in the wind that are in the path) and add a quarter to half mile of them, as in your case, and you have the Grinch that stole your Holiday!

You're not alone. I had dozen or so calls after the Nisqually earthquake for jobs that were going through the trees just fine, and now were only fair to just plain gone.
Patience will win out. Just retry everything. What was dead before may now be fine, so don't rule out any spot.

Dan

Thanks Dan. Put it on a 5' mast and connected up. Looks like I am getting KOMO steady now. Same antenna getting everything else now but KCPQ. As this antenna was used only for KOMO before I dug out the jointenna but as soon as I plug in the antenna for KCPQ I loose the signal for KOMO. So still stuck with the A/B switch. Main thing is it looks like I have KOMO and in time for the playoffs.
Happy New Year everybody!!!

Hi,
I am in the fairwood area, and have had audio problems with all my digital ota channels since the last 10 days. The picture is perfect but the audio is almost not there. Anyone else seeing this? My receiver is the samsung DIRECTV with OTA.

Dan, you had set this up for me Sep 2004. If there are no ideas here on whats happening here, I will give you a call :-)

Thanks

rajeshh
The way the digital signal works, if you get picture, then you have sound information, too.
To isolate the problem, check several things.

First, if the satellite channels are working, then your OTA tuner may have some problems with its audio portion. It's a separate tuner from the satellite, even though they use the same audio out connections on the back. If satellite channels are not putting audio, either, then you need to to do some more checking.

Hook up an analog audio cable from the tuner to the amp, and disconnect the optical digital cable. Set the amp for stereo, and the input mode for analog only. If you get audio again, then set the mode for auto. If that works then try ProLogic. If that gives you sound, (don't worry about full surround, just that you get sound) you may optical problems. Connect the optical cable back up and see if the Digital lights up on the amps display when you have a digital audio channel tuned (check the Info banner for the Dolby digital or AC3 icons when you tune in that channel).
If it lights up the display, but no audio comes out, then the amp has some internal problems.

If this gets too confusing, call me.

Dan

Looking for OTA tips... New HDTV primarily used for DVD viewing but do watch some OTA stuff. Rabbit ears use to work tolerably with the old tv, but not so much with my new one. I'd like to continue to try my luck with indoor antennas. Any suggested 'upgrades' from the ol' rabbit ears?

My location is the Crown Hill neighborhood... NW 92nd & Dibble Ave NW.

Thanks. D.Creed

Looking for OTA tips... New HDTV primarily used for DVD viewing but do watch some OTA stuff. Rabbit ears use to work tolerably with the old tv, but not so much with my new one. I'd like to continue to try my luck with indoor antennas. Any suggested 'upgrades' from the ol' rabbit ears?

My location is the Crown Hill neighborhood... NW 92nd & Dibble Ave NW.

Thanks. D.CreedHi Damon,

I am by no means an expert here, so take my advice with a grain of salt... I've read on http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/uhf.html that the radio shack 15-623 may be your best choice.

Hope this helps.
Dale

Hi Dan,
I powered off the DirecTV receiver and turned it on again, and now audio is back. I still do have audio dropouts at times, not sure if thats because of the bad weather.

Hi Damon,

I am by no means an expert here, so take my advice with a grain of salt... I've read on http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/uhf.html that the radio shack 15-623 may be your best choice.

Hope this helps.
Dale

Damon & Dale,

The 15-623 is the old model number, replaced by the 15-624. It works well but does not come with a balun for coax connection. You have to drill out the twin-lead rivets and bolt on a balun (not that difficult). Total cost = $20 + labor.

A more poplular RS unit is the 15-1880 - it is more $$ but works well also and has a coax connector. It is a single-bowtie with rear screen. Total cost = $50 (no labor).

There are other, more highly-regarded indoor units such as the Zenith Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1). It is a mini-yagi design and can be found at some Sears and various other stores. It is much more directional than either of the above units.

You might take a trip to Fry's in Renton to see what they have too. You will want to avoid anything with an amplifier or touted as "omni-directional".

Hi Dan,
I powered off the DirecTV receiver and turned it on again, and now audio is back. I still do have audio dropouts at times, not sure if thats because of the bad weather.

rajeshh
I'll drop by tomorrow and take a quick look. If you're there, fine. If not, we'll set something up later.
Dan

I'm trying to figure out if I overpowered my Home Theater PC (with an HDTV Wonder) with too hot a signal? I tried the CM 4228, but forgot to shut off the inline amplifier, and my signal degraded very badly. My HDTV signal was OK with the indoor antenna, and good with a 15-2160 antenna from Radio Shack. It got better yet with an RCA amplifier for UHF signals, but I still had some breakup during rain & weather. So I decided to try a bigger antenna.

Last night I installed a Channel Master 4228 (the 4221 would have been better, but I couldn't find it locally). I expected good things. But all my channels degraded significantly, so I reinstalled the 15-2160 before it got dark. I forgot (DOH!) to unplug the amplifier (+10db). I'm going to try the CM 4228 again, but thought I'd ask here before climbing the chimney again. Any clue if I probably (likely?) overpowered the HDTV card with a hot signal?

I'm sure things will work better if I unplug the amplifier, thoughts?

Recently bought a 4221 to be used with my DirecTV HD Tivo. Installed in attic and can't get any signal. Can someone please help me to see if it is even possible to get a signal at my location?

2601 78th Ave NE, Medina WA 98039

Thanks

Looking for OTA tips... New HDTV primarily used for DVD viewing but do watch some OTA stuff. Rabbit ears use to work tolerably with the old tv, but not so much with my new one. I'd like to continue to try my luck with indoor antennas. Any suggested 'upgrades' from the ol' rabbit ears?

My location is the Crown Hill neighborhood... NW 92nd & Dibble Ave NW.

Thanks. D.Creed

I live a bit north of you in Broadview. The Zenith Silver Sensor works great for me, but I had good analog reception with the rabbit's ears.

YMMV.

I'm trying to figure out if I overpowered my Home Theater PC (with an HDTV Wonder) with too hot a signal?

Yes. And be careful up there.

Recently bought a 4221 to be used with my DirecTV HD Tivo. Installed in attic and can't get any signal. Can someone please help me to see if it is even possible to get a signal at my location?

2601 78th Ave NE, Medina WA 98039

Thanks

Well you certainly have nothing in the way topographically. So your problem is something else. Perhaps your roof material includes something metalic like foil-faced insulation or metal roofing. Just for grins stick the 4221 outside somewhere. Your aim should be just south of due west.

I'm trying to figure out if I overpowered my Home Theater PC (with an HDTV Wonder) with too hot a signal? I tried the CM 4228, but forgot to shut off the inline amplifier, and my signal degraded very badly. My HDTV signal was OK with the indoor antenna, and good with a 15-2160 antenna from Radio Shack. It got better yet with an RCA amplifier for UHF signals, but I still had some breakup during rain & weather. So I decided to try a bigger antenna.

Last night I installed a Channel Master 4228 (the 4221 would have been better, but I couldn't find it locally). I expected good things. But all my channels degraded significantly, so I reinstalled the 15-2160 before it got dark. I forgot (DOH!) to unplug the amplifier (+10db). I'm going to try the CM 4228 again, but thought I'd ask here before climbing the chimney again. Any clue if I probably (likely?) overpowered the HDTV card with a hot signal?

I'm sure things will work better if I unplug the amplifier, thoughts?

platbr
A 4228 is way too much. It's also not as good at the two directions as the 4221 or the 15-2160. When I use a 4221 over there, I usually have to reduce the signal. It's better to have a clean strong signal and then knock it down at the receiver, then to start weak with a little antenna and then amplify it. Use the 15-2160, but go for a better location. The rain and wind problems are indicators that you are going through trees, and their movement is causing the breakups, NOT a weak signal. Ditch the amplifier. When you find the right spot, there should be no need for it.
You should be able to get all but ch13 just fine. Then when you swing it more west, for ch13, remember it's best direction. Somewhere in between should be the sweet spot. If not, then that's where the 4221 is needed. It can do both of those directions from there, slam dunk.
Double check all your connections, too, and make sure you don't have any splitters in between the antenna and receiver. Signals are so strong there, you can get direct pickup (signal ingress) from other cable runs or tuners, and it can give you funny results. When you have it working, then add them back. If it goes south, you'll know why.

Dan

Recently bought a 4221 to be used with my DirecTV HD Tivo. Installed in attic and can't get any signal. Can someone please help me to see if it is even possible to get a signal at my location?

2601 78th Ave NE, Medina WA 98039

Thanks

rastamonsta

I would bet you have some other problem. Bad fitting, staple through the cable, wrong input on the receiver, wrong setting, etc. Signal is VERY hot there. Ch's 9, 11 and 22 should be coming in somewhat. As quarque suggested, a metal or heavy tile roof can do you in, too, but usually at least one channel will try to come in. I agree, try it outside for a test. That will verify the antenna, that piece of cable and the tuner settings, etc. I would still mount it outside though. You will have a much more reliable signal. You can mount it on the side of the house facing west. If it's the right location, you should be able to get all channels.

Dan

platbr
A 4228 is way too much. It's also not as good at the two directions as the 4221 or the 15-2160. When I use a 4221 over there, I usually have to reduce the signal. It's better to have a clean strong signal and then knock it down at the receiver, then to start weak with a little antenna and then amplify it. Use the 15-2160, but go for a better location. The rain and wind problems are indicators that you are going through trees, and their movement is causing the breakups, NOT a weak signal. Ditch the amplifier. When you find the right spot, there should be no need for it.
You should be able to get all but ch13 just fine. Then when you swing it more west, for ch13, remember it's best direction. Somewhere in between should be the sweet spot. If not, then that's where the 4221 is needed. It can do both of those directions from there, slam dunk.
Double check all your connections, too, and make sure you don't have any splitters in between the antenna and receiver. Signals are so strong there, you can get direct pickup (signal ingress) from other cable runs or tuners, and it can give you funny results. When you have it working, then add them back. If it goes south, you'll know why.

Dan

Thanks Dan. I have no doubt you're right on the trees and interference. My neighbor has a large & tall clump of trees that are pretty much in my line of sight to queen ann & capitol hill. But for those, it'd be a straight shot. I'll look for a better location or get out the chainsaw ;-).

Ill give it a shot and let ya know.

Damon & Dale,

The 15-623 is the old model number, replaced by the 15-624. It works well but does not come with a balun for coax connection. You have to drill out the twin-lead rivets and bolt on a balun (not that difficult). Total cost = $20 + labor.

A more poplular RS unit is the 15-1880 - it is more $$ but works well also and has a coax connector. It is a single-bowtie with rear screen. Total cost = $50 (no labor).

There are other, more highly-regarded indoor units such as the Zenith Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1). It is a mini-yagi design and can be found at some Sears and various other stores. It is much more directional than either of the above units.

You might take a trip to Fry's in Renton to see what they have too. You will want to avoid anything with an amplifier or touted as "omni-directional".


Thanks for the tips, quarque. Currently giving the RS 15-1880 a try. Grabs most of the signals of interest to me. Ch 4HD is kinda spotty. No luck with 13HD.

D.Creed.

Thanks for the tips, quarque. Currently giving the RS 15-1880 a try. Grabs most of the signals of interest to me. Ch 4HD is kinda spotty. No luck with 13HD.

D.Creed.
You will need to experiment with the location and find the sweet spot. The rabbit ears are for VHF so keep them retracted. Generally you will want the gain control at minimum.

Anyone in Gig Harbor or on the Penninsula able to pickup the Seattle digital broadcasts? If so, please share your location and equipment used.

I am in the Wauna area on the Key and am using an attic mounted CH4228 which picks up Fox fine but nothing from the east end. The topography isn't the best out here I know but am still searching for answers.

And yes of course, I am in the "grade A" reception area according to the local networks. Isn't everybody? That is so crazy. :eek:

Elimin8r,

If you give some cross streets near your house, quarque or DanKurts can check the topography between your home and the transmitter sites.

Elimin8r,

If you give some cross streets near your house, quarque or DanKurts can check the topography between your home and the transmitter sites.

I am located on 101st St off Danforth Dr in the community of Wauna, city of Gig Harbor 98329.

I know I have a hill to the east about an eighth of a mile but it appears to be about the same height as the hill I am on.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Need that HD for the Superbowl on ABC/KOMO but believe my chances to be slim.

I am located on 101st St off Danforth Dr in the community of Wauna, city of Gig Harbor 98329.

I know I have a hill to the east about an eighth of a mile but it appears to be about the same height as the hill I am on.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Need that HD for the Superbowl on ABC/KOMO but believe my chances to be slim.

I'm not able to exactly locate Danforth & 101st as an intersection - perhaps it is a new development. I can make an educated guess where it would be. From that point I see no topographical problems for you. If you can give lat/lon or another reference point it might help.

Your aim for QA hill should be about due NE. Attic installations can be tricky. Have you tried the 4228 outside at all? Also, how thick are the trees in your NE direction?

I'm not able to exactly locate Danforth & 101st as an intersection - perhaps it is a new development. I can make an educated guess where it would be. From that point I see no topographical problems for you. If you can give lat/lon or another reference point it might help.

Your aim for QA hill should be about due NE. Attic installations can be tricky. Have you tried the 4228 outside at all? Also, how thick are the trees in your NE direction?

10017 127th St Ct NW, Gig Harbor, 98329 is the address if that helps. Located near the intersection of Danforth and 101st St.

There are some trees to the NE, moderatly thick. Outside installation is not an option in my developement. Maybe with a smaller antenna but the 4228 is quite large. The roof is tile and there are no major metalic or other obstacles in the attic.

Thanks

KOMO-DT is once again sending dolby digital 2.0 over 5.1, meaning we have dead channels, and no subwoofer. They hadn't done this for the BCS games, so I don't understand why they are doing this now. When they were passing 2.0 plus the surround flag, it was perfect.

KOMO-DT is once again sending dolby digital 2.0 over 5.1, meaning we have dead channels, and no subwoofer. They hadn't done this for the BCS games, so I don't understand why they are doing this now. When they were passing 2.0 plus the surround flag, it was perfect.
Strange, my receiver showed 2.0 during the Rose and the Fiesta bowl for KOMO. So the sound wasn't too bad using PLII, compared to 2.0 over 5.1 which I noticed on another ABC station.

10017 127th St Ct NW, Gig Harbor, 98329 is the address if that helps. Located near the intersection of Danforth and 101st St.

There are some trees to the NE, moderatly thick. Outside installation is not an option in my developement. Maybe with a smaller antenna but the 4228 is quite large. The roof is tile and there are no major metalic or other obstacles in the attic.

Thanks
Well that I *can* locate. I see a "Danforth" about a mile NE of you. Anyway, from that location you do have a blocking hill to the NE. You would need at least a 50-foot tower to clear it. The trees won't help either. I think you are SOL. Go with cable or dish.

My niece and her husband used to live a few miles SE of you. They were not into HD so can't give any insights from them. I never could understand the naming system over there. How can something be both a Street and a Court? :)

10017 127th St Ct NW, Gig Harbor, 98329 is the address if that helps. Located near the intersection of Danforth and 101st St.

There are some trees to the NE, moderatly thick. Outside installation is not an option in my developement. Maybe with a smaller antenna but the 4228 is quite large. The roof is tile and there are no major metalic or other obstacles in the attic.

Thanks

Elimin8r
In addition to what quarque pointed out, the tile roof is a big show-stopper.
You could try outside, if you want, since you have everything already.
The FCC law overrides any covenants, so if it works, you can leave it there.
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
Be careful on a wet tile roof....
Dan

Hi Quarque,

Could you please check reception at the intersection of 35th Ave SE and 116th St. SE in S. Everett? Our elevation is pretty good (~430 ft), but Dan Kurts told me I'd have difficulty due to trees. I'd appreciate a topo check.

A big mast-mounted antenna like a CM 4228 isn't an option, but I can try a Terk HDTVs (aka Winegard SquareShooter) to see if it works.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

Hi Quarque,

Could you please check reception at the intersection of 35th Ave SE and 116th St. SE in S. Everett? Our elevation is pretty good (~430 ft), but Dan Kurts told me I'd have difficulty due to trees. I'd appreciate a topo check.

A big mast-mounted antenna like a CM 4228 isn't an option, but I can try a Terk HDTVs (aka Winegard SquareShooter) to see if it works.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

Jeff
The topography checks fine. If there were no trees, it would be fine.
I have several installs blocks from you. Signal levels are fair to good. It's the trees that chop up the signal. I found only the 4248 worked well enough to get most of the channels. The other types just didn't do as well. Yoo never know exactly what will work in the trees in any given location.
If you want to try something, use a 15-2160 from RatShack. It can be returned, and works as well if not better than a squareshooter, and it's cheaper. It can also be mounted on the side of the house, if it will work there. A 4228 can also be mounted on the side, but it's so big, it needs to stick out 20" to 30" to be able to turn it.
Let us know what happens
Dan

Hi Quarque,

Could you please check reception at the intersection of 35th Ave SE and 116th St. SE in S. Everett? Our elevation is pretty good (~430 ft), but Dan Kurts told me I'd have difficulty due to trees. I'd appreciate a topo check.

A big mast-mounted antenna like a CM 4228 isn't an option, but I can try a Terk HDTVs (aka Winegard SquareShooter) to see if it works.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

Jeff - yes, you are at about 430 feet. You have no intervening hills so the trees *may* be your biggest problem. The SquareShooter is a possibility since you are only 19 miles from QA hill. Get the amplified one. Make sure you can return it if it doesn't work. You may have to try several locations to find the sweet spot.

I don't know that the Terk unit is the same as the Winegard. It is much larger for one thing. If you're going to spend $100 I'd go with Winegard. Terk does not have a very good reputation around AVS.

Dan and Quarque, thanks for your prompt input! It's great that both of you contribute so freely with your knowledge.

Quarque, I'm afraid that I already bought the Terk HDTVs, but I should be able to return it if it doesn't work out. I am aware that Terk has a pretty poor reputation with folks in the know, but I was led to believe that the HDTVs is a rebranded Winegard SquareShooter.

Dan - I've tried a Radio Shack 15-2160 in my attic, which didn't work out too well (as you predicted). I'm afraid to try it on the outside of the house - FCC rules notwithstanding, I really don't want to draw the wrath of my neighbors. The HDTVs is small and relatively innocuous-looking.

I'll post back and let y'all know how it works out - thanks again for the advice.

Jeff

Greetings! You guys are doing a great service here! :) Would you mind checking my address for me? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this already but you guys obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do. My elevation is good i believe (around 400ft) but I'm well surrounded by hills in just about every direction.

The address is 12 56th Pl SE in Everett (yes 12). Is there any solution here or might I just be on the hook to wait for Directv to start carrying local HD channels?

Thanks in advance,
-Mark

Wow, glad I found this forum, I get Komo in pretty well along with Fox but that is it, could someone check my address to see if I have any blocking issues?

22702 30th AVE SE Bothell ????

Greetings! You guys are doing a great service here! :) Would you mind checking my address for me? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this already but you guys obviously know a heck of a lot more about this than I do. My elevation is good i believe (around 400ft) but I'm well surrounded by hills in just about every direction.

The address is 12 56th Pl SE in Everett (yes 12). Is there any solution here or might I just be on the hook to wait for Directv to start carrying local HD channels?

Thanks in advance,
-Mark

Mark
There's a 600ft hill a mile SW of you, plus trees, that's going to put you in the shadow of the signals. You would have to go up 150ft or more to get good reception. Direct will only carry 4,5,7 & 13 when they start to offer local HD. If you need the other channels, try cable, if it's in the area.
Dan

HD reception in Capitol Hill area?

I'm looking for any info on OTA reception from 16th and Union in Seattle. My house is on top of the hill and ~2 miles from the Queen Anne towers, but the bad news is that the radio/cell towers at 17th and Madison are only about 4-5 blocks away. I'm also curious as to how well I'll be able to pull in Fox from their transmitter near Bremerton.

Like several others, I bought a Terk HDTVa before reading this forum; it hasn't arrived yet, I hope that wasn't a mistake.

Thanks for the help, this looks like a great resource!

Wow, glad I found this forum, I get Komo in pretty well along with Fox but that is it, could someone check my address to see if I have any blocking issues?

22702 30th AVE SE Bothell ????

mwilli
About a half mile SW is a big hill, 200ft plus higher than you. The fact you're getting anything is pretty good. You have a good receiver and/or antenna that's working with very little. Fox comes in because it's further west and goes around the hill. What antenna and receiver are you using? How is the antenna mounted?
Dan

HD reception in Capitol Hill area?

I'm looking for any info on OTA reception from 16th and Union in Seattle. My house is on top of the hill and ~2 miles from the Queen Anne towers, but the bad news is that the radio/cell towers at 17th and Madison are only about 4-5 blocks away. I'm also curious as to how well I'll be able to pull in Fox from their transmitter near Bremerton.

Like several others, I bought a Terk HDTVa before reading this forum; it hasn't arrived yet, I hope that wasn't a mistake.

Thanks for the help, this looks like a great resource!

helpcraft
You're in a tough spot. Being so close is going to make it harder. You have 3 directions. 23rd & Madison for 9, 11, 22, QA HIll, and Fox from the west. One antenna is not going to do it. It's going to get very touchy, too, because of widely varying signal levels. To make it more interesting, Fox comes through all those buildings downtown, so it gets bounced around a lot.
Two antennas, coupled with a Jointenna, might work.
It's going to be a challenge!
Dan

helpcraft
You're in a tough spot. Being so close is going to make it harder. You have 3 directions. 23rd & Madison for 9, 11, 22, QA HIll, and Fox from the west. One antenna is not going to do it. It's going to get very touchy, too, because of widely varying signal levels. To make it more interesting, Fox comes through all those buildings downtown, so it gets bounced around a lot.
Two antennas, coupled with a Jointenna, might work.
It's going to be a challenge!
Dan

Dan--thanks for the info, this is very helpful (if a bit discouraging :( ). I'll give it a try later this week when my tuner and antenna arrive and report back.

I'm sure hoping to catch the Seahawks on Fox this weekend, if I read you correctly I may be able to correctly orient the tuner to pull in one station at a time, but it will be very directional. I realize this is all hypothetical, but do you think the Join-Tenna will be a necessity (ie required to block interference from other frequencies) or a convenience (ie I won't have to get off the couch to reorient the antenna every time I want to change the channel)?

Mark
There's a 600ft hill a mile SW of you, plus trees, that's going to put you in the shadow of the signals. You would have to go up 150ft or more to get good reception. Direct will only carry 4,5,7 & 13 when they start to offer local HD. If you need the other channels, try cable, if it's in the area.
Dan


That's about what I figured but wanted to verify. I just can't cough up my NFL sunday ticket LOL. Thanks Dan... appreciate it

-m

Dan, I am using the Directv HD-250 TIVO model, the OTA antennae I am not 100% sure of the brand, the installer mounted it when the re-installed the dish. I figured that the hill was the issue.

This sucks I guess I will have to wait for the Local channels to be broadcasted by Directv, thanks a ton for looking that info up.

Well that I *can* locate. I see a "Danforth" about a mile NE of you. Anyway, from that location you do have a blocking hill to the NE. You would need at least a 50-foot tower to clear it. The trees won't help either. I think you are SOL. Go with cable or dish.

My niece and her husband used to live a few miles SE of you. They were not into HD so can't give any insights from them. I never could understand the naming system over there. How can something be both a Street and a Court? :)


Thanks for the help.

You too Dan!

First, a quick thanks to all the experts taking their time to help others.
Now, my request for advice-- my address is the intersection of 171 Place and 114th Court NE, Redmond, on Education Hill (technically "North Redmond"). Antennaweb recommends a "medium directional" antenna (red) pointed around 224 degrees. The Seattle transmitters are about 10-12 miles away, and Tacoma is 30 miles away. While I don't have trees in the immediate vicinity, about 1.5 blocks away there a number of trees and homes and prevent me from having a direct view to Seattle. I don't believe that the elevation change is that great, but the view is somewhat obstructed, though.
What type of antenna would work best? It will be mounted outside, at a second story level. The cable run to the tuner is about 50-60 feet. Do I need an amplifier? If so, which one would you recommend?
Thanks for all the feedback.

Dan--thanks for the info, this is very helpful (if a bit discouraging :( ). I'll give it a try later this week when my tuner and antenna arrive and report back.

I'm sure hoping to catch the Seahawks on Fox this weekend, if I read you correctly I may be able to correctly orient the tuner to pull in one station at a time, but it will be very directional. I realize this is all hypothetical, but do you think the Join-Tenna will be a necessity (ie required to block interference from other frequencies) or a convenience (ie I won't have to get off the couch to reorient the antenna every time I want to change the channel)?

helpcraft
Orienting the tuner won't help, but doing that to antenna will. The jointenna couples two antennas together and keeps them from cancelling or attenuating each other. It doesn't block interference. If the antennas are each doing their job, and the jointenna, the tuner sees them as one. How well it all works determines the frequency of couch "degress & ingress" !
Dan

First, a quick thanks to all the experts taking their time to help others.
Now, my request for advice-- my address is the intersection of 171 Place and 114th Court NE, Redmond, on Education Hill (technically "North Redmond"). Antennaweb recommends a "medium directional" antenna (red) pointed around 224 degrees. The Seattle transmitters are about 10-12 miles away, and Tacoma is 30 miles away. While I don't have trees in the immediate vicinity, about 1.5 blocks away there a number of trees and homes and prevent me from having a direct view to Seattle. I don't believe that the elevation change is that great, but the view is somewhat obstructed, though.
What type of antenna would work best? It will be mounted outside, at a second story level. The cable run to the tuner is about 50-60 feet. Do I need an amplifier? If so, which one would you recommend?
Thanks for all the feedback.

drios
You're in a great location. You do NOT need an amplifier. Try a 15-2160 from RatShack. Might work fine. It can be mounted on the side of the house, if you want, as long as it has a clear view to the SW. If not, return it and go for a 4221, which can be mounted on the side, too, if you want. I have several antennas within blocks of you, all worked fine.
Dan

Thanks very much! Will give the 15-2160 a try.
Regards, David.

Can someone explain to me why KOMO switches the sound like they do? They consistently ruin the beginning to each show that begins 5.1 for the night...

Other affiliates switch between 2.0 and 5.1 regularly but don't lose sound for 10 seconds each time.

Frustrated that this has become the norm for KOMO.

Dan,

Thanks again for all the info. I'll give the Join-Tenna a try and report back with the results.

Hi quarque,

I just recently got a new HDTV for the playoff games and I'm wondering whether my LOS is good enough to pick up channel 13 and the rest of the major channels?
I am currently located at 140 SW 353rd St, 98023 and with the coordinates of W47.2851310,-122.3349650.
I currently using about a 5-7 year old directional antenna on analog and I currently get all the channels pretty good except for FOX 13 (Marginal but fuzzy most of the time). Also I was wondering if you had any suggestions on some high rated Digital Receivers (for best signal clarity and strength) on the market today.

Appreciate any help and thanks
Loren

Can someone explain to me why KOMO switches the sound like they do? They consistently ruin the beginning to each show that begins 5.1 for the night...

Other affiliates switch between 2.0 and 5.1 regularly but don't lose sound for 10 seconds each time.

Frustrated that this has become the norm for KOMO.

The problem appears to be a compatibility issue with the Comcast Cable box. I don't see that off the air. The viewer complaints of the audio dropouts have come only from Comcast subscribers when switching from stereo to 5.1 DD. KOMO has established an operating practice of making that switch only at the beginning of the evening's HDTV programing to minimize interruptions. Previously, it occurred every time the station switched between network and local programming...ie...local station breaks, commercials, etc. Permantly locking on 5.1 was tried but there were other problems.

It appears that the Comcast box takes 10 or more seconds to re-lock after the switch from 2.0 to 5.1.

We are still working with Comcast to find an answer.

Don

Hi quarque,

I just recently got a new HDTV for the playoff games and I'm wondering whether my LOS is good enough to pick up channel 13 and the rest of the major channels?
I am currently located at 140 SW 353rd St, 98023 and with the coordinates of W47.2851310,-122.3349650.
I currently using about a 5-7 year old directional antenna on analog and I currently get all the channels pretty good except for FOX 13 (Marginal but fuzzy most of the time). Also I was wondering if you had any suggestions on some high rated Digital Receivers (for best signal clarity and strength) on the market today.

Appreciate any help and thanks
Loren

Your LOS to CH13 near Bemerton looks very good - should be no problem. But your path to QA hill is marginal at best. You will need to get your antenna on a mast on the roof to have a decent chance.

As for receivers, I hear good things about LG. Have you checked out the Hardware forum on AVS? They keep up on all the latest. A few years ago it made a big difference which receiver you used in which location. The latest crop is much improved so it is not as important these days which one you buy, but some are still better than others.

Your LOS to CH13 near Bemerton looks very good - should be no problem. But your path to QA hill is marginal at best. You will need to get your antenna on a mast on the roof to have a decent chance.

As for receivers, I hear good things about LG. Have you checked out the Hardware forum on AVS? They keep up on all the latest. A few years ago it made a big difference which receiver you used in which location. The latest crop is much improved so it is not as important these days which one you buy, but some are still better than others.

I do have the antenna on a 3-4ft mast on the roof of the second story. As far as Receivers I will go check out the Hardware forum on AVS. hey and thanks for your help and advice.
Loren

The problem appears to be a compatibility issue with the Comcast Cable box. I don't see that off the air. The viewer complaints of the audio dropouts have come only from Comcast subscribers when switching from stereo to 5.1 DD. KOMO has established an operating practice of making that switch only at the beginning of the evening's HDTV programing to minimize interruptions. Previously, it occurred every time the station switched between network and local programming...ie...local station breaks, commercials, etc. Permantly locking on 5.1 was tried but there were other problems.

It appears that the Comcast box takes 10 or more seconds to re-lock after the switch from 2.0 to 5.1.

We are still working with Comcast to find an answer.

Don

Hi Don!

No problems here either with OTA using my DirecTV HD DVR with TiVo.

The problem appears to be a compatibility issue with the Comcast Cable box. I don't see that off the air.
Don,

I see the same problem with my Radio Shack Accurian OTA receiver. Obviously, the problem is less often with your new switching schedule.

HTH.

Hi quarque,

I just recently got a new HDTV for the playoff games and I'm wondering whether my LOS is good enough to pick up channel 13 and the rest of the major channels?
I am currently located at 140 SW 353rd St, 98023 and with the coordinates of W47.2851310,-122.3349650.
I currently using about a 5-7 year old directional antenna on analog and I currently get all the channels pretty good except for FOX 13 (Marginal but fuzzy most of the time). Also I was wondering if you had any suggestions on some high rated Digital Receivers (for best signal clarity and strength) on the market today.

Appreciate any help and thanks
Loren

Loren
It's not that easy. I have the same topo program, it shows things are okay. Not so. That hill to the NW of you is pretty steep, and loaded with trees. And you're in a gully for the Seattle stations. Analog reception does not mean you will get great HD reception. Even from West Campus it's hit or miss, and it's much higher than you. You will get some signal there, it's just going to be broken up for HD, so it's tough for the tuner to lock in on channels. What you need to use is a yagi style antenna, at least 5ft above the roof. Try the 15-2160 from RatShack. Point it NW and see how ch13 comes in. For Seattle channels, point it more north, parallel with 1st ave. Don't be surprised if only a few come in. You will probably need a bigger yagi, like the Channel Master 4248.
Trying the 2160 will be a good test as to how reception is there. You will most likely need two antennas, the small 2160 and a larger yagi. Trying for all channels with one is going to be very tough. I know. I've lived in Federal Way for 35 years, and have many antennas all around you.
The Samsung, Zenith and LG over air only tuners are good, and the newest TV's with the built in tuners all work pretty well. All have about the same clarity, basically, because HD is either perfect picture or nothing. There are small differences in video noise, but most people never notice it because they're so knocked out by the HD picture.
Call if you have questions.
Dan
206-794-3993

I'm Ecstatic, I finally put up my OTA system and it works better than I hoped it would.

I have everybody on this forum to thank for all the good information and help.....especially "quarque" and "DanKurts".

I live near the intersection of 204th Str. SW/21st Pl. W. , Lynnwood, 98036. I setup a ChannelMaster 4221 antenna on my roof and hooked it up to a RadioShack Accurian Digital Tuner Box and then to my Sony HDTV........all I can say is WOW!! Awesome picture and reception , I get channels 4,5,7,9,11,13 and several others that I haven't had the time really check out yet. I have the antenna directed at 180 degrees, I'm going to try some different antenna angles tomorrow after I finish hooking everything up.

Once Again Thanks For Your Help and suggestions
David

No problems getting reception in the south Auburn Valley with a crappy 7 year old roof antenna but I do have a question.

I watched SNL last night and it was not displayed in fullscreen. Basically it had black bars on top/bottom AND on the sides. The aspect ratio of the visible picture is 16:9 but it is simply not taking up the whole screen. It was like they were sending out the picture with the black bars included, but the actual picture was in HD of course. Other HD programming does take the fullscreen like normal (just watched 24 tonight, beautiful). So what the hell? Tried going through all the aspect settings on my TV and it did not make a difference.

SNL is "tape delayed" by KING TV because they start it 5 minutes later than the network feed. We heard that they actually record a feed for an earlier time zone. Unfortunately, their recording capability (not likely tape these days) does not support HD, so we get the letterboxed SD version upconverted from SD to HD for broadcast on the KING-DT HD channel.

Elsewhere in the country they are enjoying SNL in true HD.

I say end the news 5 minutes earlier and give us our SNL in HD as provided by NBC!

If only there were a KING5 representative on this forum whom we could pester relentlessly, then surely that would fix the problem! Well, probably not, but it may be worth dropping the station a note to make sure they're aware how many people are ticked off by this.

Really, it does seem pretty lame that so many of us have the equipment to record an HD feed and play it back on a delay, but apparently they don't have the professional equivalent. It's not like we're talking about a tiny TV station in a one-horse town.

If only there were a KING5 representative on this forum whom we could pester relentlessly, then surely that would fix the problem! Well, probably not, but it may be worth dropping the station a note to make sure they're aware how many people are ticked off by this.

Really, it does seem pretty lame that so many of us have the equipment to record an HD feed and play it back on a delay, but apparently they don't have the professional equivalent. It's not like we're talking about a tiny TV station in a one-horse town.

Obviously I don't work for KING, but I can't help but reply to your comments.

I don't know of ANY broadcaster in the Seattle area who isn't working through the challenges and process of broadcasting in HD or in the variations of audio combinations. One thing we've all discovered in the process is the challenge of digital transmission and reception being fragile. As you can see by looking back on posts right on this site, some people have problems with watching certain programs, while others do not. While I can appreciate the frustration felt after shelling out a lot of money for your TV with the promise of HD, looking at the posts must tell you something, that being not everyone is effected the same way. This is especially true with OTA reception. The challenges span not only with the equipment used to broadcast HD, but also the reception equipment, cable or OTA.

Speaking for myself, I don't come to this site to be scolded, or read rants of frustrated viewers who either don't know, or don't want to understand the process. And there are other engineers from stations in the area whom I know either read, but don't want to reply for the reason of being "piled on", or have stopped looking at this site. And frankly, I now look back on whether bothering to respond to this forum was a good idea, when it appears all some people want to do is use it as a place to complain. Frankly we can work through the process without the grief.

Don't get me wrong, I have used some of the constructive comments and questions to troubleshoot challenges we've had at KOMO, but to assume that we as broadcasters don't care about the quality of our HD broadcasts is just silly.

Quick OTA install question.....where should I attach the grounding wire to on the CM4221 antenna? and should I attach the other end of the grounding wire to the grounding block or directly to the grounding rod?

Thanks
David

Kelly,

We do appreciate the opportunity to hear from you and Don so we can better understand the frustrations and progress you are living through.

I know many folks don't fully appreciate the huge cost associated with conversion to digital TV and HDTV, including running in parallel with analog for many years. And there is no new revenue to offset these huge costs, so the stations bare the brunt of trying to acquire expensive equipment, only to find out later that hidden functional gaps and/or hidden incompatilibities exist between devices in the data flow.

I for one appreciate your dedication to making things work together that were not necessarily designed to do so. I am well acquainted with electronic and communications equipment that is "compliant with all industry standards" yet has manufacturer-added extensions to make it more competitive and more comfortable for a buyer to stick with a single manufacturer for an entire suite of equipment. Interoperability has always been a dream, but it only really benefits the buyers, not the manufacturers. They don't want their equipment to become commodity devices that are easily interchangeable with those from their competitors.

Please do not be run off by folks expressing their frustrations here, and definitely do not take their comments personally. I have been watching HDTV for over 5 years, and I have seen great progress, even though there are still plenty of issues to resolve. IMHO, common interpretation of the "standards" involved will take a long time, during which small incompatibilities will cause grief and annoyances that are difficult to anticipate and avoid.

Audio management seems to have been one of the last to get industry attention, and there are still many opinions, interpretations, and implementations out there that do not take full advantage of the intent of the standards and technologies. I believe KOMO's use of DD 2.0 with surround for non DD 5.1 sources is definitely the right way to go. Dolby Labs apparently recommends exactly what you are doing, in terms of making the viewer/user experience as easy as possible. I hate having to manually invoke the Dolby Pro Logic decoder in my A/V receiver when a station is broadcasting DD 2.0 without the matrix surround flag turned on.

Perhaps some of the folks that have more recently acquired their means of receiving and watching HDTV are not aware of the true difficulty of getting it right.

End of rant!

Kelly,
I know many folks don't fully appreciate the huge cost associated with conversion to digital TV and HDTV, including running in parallel with analog for many years. And there is no new revenue to offset these huge costs, so the stations bare the brunt of trying to acquire expensive equipment...

The airwaves belong to the public.

I think all broadcast companies have been getting a tremendous deal in using publics resources for very little money or maybe even for free. The conversion to digital broadcasting is a small price to pay, considering the years of profits obtained by using public resources.

If only there were a KING5 representative on this forum whom we could pester relentlessly, then surely that would fix the problem!


Obviously I don't work for KING, but I can't help but reply to your comments.


Sorry if my sarcastic tone didn't come across clearly; I think that repeatedly pestering people and being needlessly confrontational is rude and unlikely to lead to any constructive result. I've been on the other end of such exchanges, where someone thinks that just because you work for company X that means you're magically able to control everything they do and fix any problem.

At the same time, I also am aware of the compelling power of the argument "nobody has complained about it." Most companies, if given a choice between spending money to fix a problem which "nobody has complained about" and using that money for something else, will likely prefer the latter. That's why it makes sense for a viewer to communicate such a concern (in an appropriate time, place and manner.)

Anyway, sorry for the drift.

I have become disenchanted with King Tv and hd.
I feel that after being one of the first to broadcast in hd they should have the system down better than other stations around the country. Could it be the Belo ownership?
The Snl problem is rediculous. If they can't do it right in hd just rebroadcast the sd in digital.
At least give me a full side picture.
Second I won't even watch their local news broabroadcasts. I would think by now they would have the camera angles figured out so I don't have to look at Jean Enerson's forehead and nose on a camera right shot. The way the studio shots jump in and out of hd are bothering. i can understand the jump from 16:9 to 4:3 for field reports but not studio.

The reason (good or bad) that the studio shots switch back and forth between HD 16x9 and SD 4x3 is because their graphics system is apparently not compatible with HD. If you watch carefully, every time they add graphics, they switch back to 4x3. They did add the screen behind the newscasters that lets them show some info while still in HD.

KING-DT does a nice job with Evening Magazine in HD, if you are at all interested in that program. There is a similar weekend program (can't remember the name right now) that is also HD.

All that said, they have been in this mode for a long time, perhaps since before the ownership change.

I do agree that they do a nice job with Evening Magazine.

Quick OTA install question.....where should I attach the grounding wire to on the CM4221 antenna? and should I attach the other end of the grounding wire to the grounding block or directly to the grounding rod?

Thanks
David

David
Well done on your install!

I usually mount the ground block near the mast or antenna clamp, so it keeps the wire short. Strip about 3" off the end of the ground wire, loop it through the ground block and then around a bolt clamping the antenna and/or mast. The other end of the wire needs to go to a ground rod. That takes care of both the antenna back plane and it's receiving elements.

Also, you shouldn't need to tweak the antenna much. If your numbers are 70's and above and steady, you're doing fine. It's not real sensitive to direction, so don't be surprised if it doesn't change much. Just find the limits of right and left of the main direction, then center it, and you should be good.

Dan

Dave & Kelly,

All good points by both of you. I am reminded by this recent comment barrage of previous technology "launches" and how the promise of "utopia in a box" was not what happened. Remember Windows 95? It was going to make you wet your pants it was so good. Then the reality set in and most of us spent endless hours trying to make things work properly. There are many other examples of how the hype gave everyone a false hope for some product or technology. I read an article many many years ago about how digital OTA was going to solve ALL our reception problems. There was no mention of any of the myriad of problems experienced by many of us. It would be "trouble free and crystal clear" for all of us, all the time. Yeah, right.

Kelly - I hope you continue to participate on AVS and encourage your fellow broadcasters to also do so. Do not let the ravings of any of us get to you on a personal level. Some of it is due to ignorance on our part and you can help us understand why things are the way they are. Your input is invaluable (and Don's!).

The reason (good or bad) that the studio shots switch back and forth between HD 16x9 and SD 4x3 is because their graphics system is apparently not compatible with HD. If you watch carefully, every time they add graphics, they switch back to 4x3. They did add the screen behind the newscasters that lets them show some info while still in HD.

KING-DT does a nice job with Evening Magazine in HD, if you are at all interested in that program. There is a similar weekend program (can't remember the name right now) that is also HD.

All that said, they have been in this mode for a long time, perhaps since before the ownership change.


Agreed, they've been in the getting fixed mode for a while. They told me two years ago they would have the graphics thing fixed on the news casts, within months, along with the audio delay. It's on both over air HD and regular analog, even on cable. Audio and video are not in sync. Sometimes it's worse than others. The regular programs and network feeds seem to have no trouble, just the news or in-studio shows. What seems so odd is video and audio delay devices, for getting them back in sync, have been around for years. Stopped asking about it when they told me they don't hear it. I get asked about it quite a bit, though, specially after doing an install and they see the news for the first time in HD. Sure will be nice when that gets addressed, too.


I second what you said to Kelly at KOMO. And for that matter, the other techs that have contributed from KIRO, UPN, and those that call me back when I leave messages.
I, and my customers that want to know what's going on, really appreciate the efforts and status updates. If there's ever anything I can do from the field, checks, tests, general observations, let me know. It's a win-win-win for you, me and my customers.
Thanks
Dan

I'm moving into the area, and want to get a read on OTA viability.....house is at
W 122.8762, N 46.9721. elevation about the same as olympia airport, but fortunately looking out over the deschutes river valley (gulley? ditch? crevasse?), so have fairly open view to east through northeast....any chance of getting away with OTA...planning roof mount (1 story above land elevation).

Pete.

Hi,

Not sure if I'm doing this right (first post). I'm on North end of Vashon Island (47.49457N, 122.46396W, 394ft Elev.) and have a standard RadioShack combo rooftop antenna. I don't get FOX13 (Bremerton) at all and have to move things to get KBTC in tacoma. I'm hoping this antenna will pull it all in. Does anybody know where to buy it locally?

Also, I have a OTA HDTV tuner as well, and has anybody noticed that sometimes with movies on the network channels the audio track isn't synced correctly? I was watching Harry Potter on ABC I think a while ago and had to watch the SD transmission as the lack of sync made it look like a 1960s Japanese monster film and drove me batty.

Thanks,

David

I'm moving into the area, and want to get a read on OTA viability.....house is at
W 122.8762, N 46.9721. elevation about the same as olympia airport, but fortunately looking out over the deschutes river valley (gulley? ditch? crevasse?), so have fairly open view to east through northeast....any chance of getting away with OTA...planning roof mount (1 story above land elevation).

Pete.
Your path to downtown Seattle looks OK but you are 52 miles away. Unless you have a thick stand of trees in the way you should be OK. What sort of antenna do you have or plan to get?

Hi,

Not sure if I'm doing this right (first post). I'm on North end of Vashon Island (47.49457N, 122.46396W, 394ft Elev.) and have a standard RadioShack combo rooftop antenna. I don't get FOX13 (Bremerton) at all and have to move things to get KBTC in tacoma. I'm hoping this antenna will pull it all in. Does anybody know where to buy it locally?

Also, I have a OTA HDTV tuner as well, and has anybody noticed that sometimes with movies on the network channels the audio track isn't synced correctly? I was watching Harry Potter on ABC I think a while ago and had to watch the SD transmission as the lack of sync made it look like a 1960s Japanese monster film and drove me batty.

Thanks,

David
I don't think a 4221 will solve all your problems. You have stations in several different directions, spread more than 90 degrees from each other. A standard yagi or bowtie design will not cover all of that without a rotor. A 4221 (or your existing antenna) might be able to cover Seattle and Ch 13 by splitting the difference, but that would block anything to the south. Aim would be due north.

A multi-directional antenna theoretically would work but very few AVS members (including myself) have gotten them to work. The problem being that they pick up reflected signals VERY WELL and all that does is confuse the receiver.

Your first test with your existing antenna would be to point it in the proper direction for each tower or group and verify you can get reception. Ch 13 is WNW, Seattle is NE and Tacoma is south. If you can actually get all the stations by proper aiming then the next step is to decide what final solution you want to try: a single antenna with a rotor or multiple antennas with a Jointenna device. The latter being rather tricky to set up and more expensive. The drawback to the rotor is having to rotate the antenna for different stations and thus recording OTA becomes difficult. But it is much easier to set up and make work.

Audio sync has been a problem since day one, along with all sorts of other problems. I tried to watch KOMO last night and I had to put my receiver in 5-ch mono mode to get decent sound. They were brodcasting from 9:00 PM to about 10:45 PM in DD5.1 with the DD channels all messed up. Front and Back were swapped and there was no center channel. This has happened before on network shows. Then at 10:45 it switched to normal 5.1.

Hi,

Not sure if I'm doing this right (first post). I'm on North end of Vashon Island (47.49457N, 122.46396W, 394ft Elev.) and have a standard RadioShack combo rooftop antenna. I don't get FOX13 (Bremerton) at all and have to move things to get KBTC in tacoma. I'm hoping this antenna will pull it all in. Does anybody know where to buy it locally?

Also, I have a OTA HDTV tuner as well, and has anybody noticed that sometimes with movies on the network channels the audio track isn't synced correctly? I was watching Harry Potter on ABC I think a while ago and had to watch the SD transmission as the lack of sync made it look like a 1960s Japanese monster film and drove me batty.

Thanks,

David

David
Sounds like you're trying for both analog and HD reception. The requirements for each are quite different. It gets tougher if you're using more than one TV on the antenna, too.
There are several ways to do this, none are simple. If you don't need KBTC, it gets easier.
Let us know more details.
Dan

Wondering what my OTA reception situation is at 168xx 125th Ave SE, Renton 98058

Haven't gone antenna shopping yet (I won't be moving for a month or so), but what would you suggest for HD and SD locals.

Would antenna height AGL (Above Ground Level) be a factor, and if so, how high should I go?

At that range, do I need to worry about somewhat distant treelines (1/4+ miles away), and if so, what kind of elevation angle should I be above (elevation from antenna mount height to top of treeline)?

I know not to actually elevate the antenna, just thinking along the lines of sight picture lines for sat dishes.

And finally, should I just point NE, or at 52 miles, will I need to be hitting antennaweb for actual angles?

Haven't gone antenna shopping yet (I won't be moving for a month or so), but what would you suggest for HD and SD locals.

Would antenna height AGL (Above Ground Level) be a factor, and if so, how high should I go?

At that range, do I need to worry about somewhat distant treelines (1/4+ miles away), and if so, what kind of elevation angle should I be above (elevation from antenna mount height to top of treeline)?

I know not to actually elevate the antenna, just thinking along the lines of sight picture lines for sat dishes.

And finally, should I just point NE, or at 52 miles, will I need to be hitting antennaweb for actual angles?
You could start off at the low end (Radio Shack 15-2160 $25) and work your way up. Mainly because Radio Shack is easy to buy & return. If that one gives you unreliable reception then try a Channel Master 4228 or 4248.

Yes, height helps; the more the better. The RS unit will tell you if you have major tree problems or not. If you do you will want a CM unit and an amplifier. I did a DX test last summer and pulled in Spokane at 110 miles on the RS unit, so it works pretty well.

You are far enough away that you can keep the antenna dead level. Aiming should be within +/- 10 degrees to start. Once you're going you can experiment.

By "SD" do you mean SD digital or analog? Analog will require a UHF/VHF combo unit.

I live next to the Air Force base and I cannot get ABC. I have a Channel Master 4228 But Still can't pull a signal. I get Fox at 73% UPN at 60% CBS 60%... Any help??? The SuperBowl is in 3 weeks...

I live next to the Air Force base and I cannot get ABC. I have a Channel Master 4228 But Still can't pull a signal. I get Fox at 73% UPN at 60% CBS 60%... Any help??? The SuperBowl is in 3 weeks...
This is a very common phenomenon (not getting all stations from a group that are in the same area). The first thing to try is moving your antenna in 6" increments up, down, left & right. Try as many locations as you can find. You may have a single tree somewhere in the path to KOMO. A slight adjustment may be all that is needed to get around it. You may also be fighting a reflection and again, moving the antenna is the best way to defeat it. You might also try an amplifier. It works once in a while for reception problems. How is your antenna mounted? How high up?

The CM4228 it up about 20-25 feet... I don't know if there is interferance from the Air Force?

Is there a signal meter I can get to try to fine tune and find the best signal? If so where do I find one?

Wondering what my OTA reception situation is at 168xx 125th Ave SE, Renton 98058

Lodep
Pretty good. Just did one a block away. Used a 4221, worked okay. What's tricky is the trees around there are more of a hassle than you would think. If there are any close by, try to locate it away from them. You're shooting for 3 directions, basically NW and just North of due West for ch13. Sometimes the 15-2160 works okay, but it didn't make it for the job near you. Never can tell.
Dan

Is there a signal meter I can get to try to fine tune and find the best signal? If so where do I find one?

bnbstewarts
To mesure real signal levels requires an expensive meter/analyzer.
You can always take the receiver up on the roof and a small tv, and then hunt for the best readings, or do the cell phone trick with someone inside telling you the numbers. In either case, realize that you aren't actually seeing true strength, or amount of signal, but a ratio of signal to noise. You could be very weak, or strong, and if the ratio is the same, it's deceiving. What's worse, once the signal locks, it's perfect, so you're left guessing as to how well everything is. When it gets close to the edge, it starts to freeze, or break up. You might actually have plenty of signal, just that it's getting broken up by the trees. As quarque mentioned, location can be very sensitive. A foot in any direction can make or break it.
Dan

Haven't gone antenna shopping yet (I won't be moving for a month or so), but what would you suggest for HD and SD locals.

Would antenna height AGL (Above Ground Level) be a factor, and if so, how high should I go?

At that range, do I need to worry about somewhat distant treelines (1/4+ miles away), and if so, what kind of elevation angle should I be above (elevation from antenna mount height to top of treeline)?

I know not to actually elevate the antenna, just thinking along the lines of sight picture lines for sat dishes.

And finally, should I just point NE, or at 52 miles, will I need to be hitting antennaweb for actual angles?

pthack
Normally, the higher the antenna, the better. Once you're above the surrounding houses, you only need to go above any hills. In your case, none. The trees may be a problem, but I would bet less than 10% chance. Elevation angle has no effect that I've seen, unless you're really close, like the side of QA Hill. Direction will not be fussy with the 4228. Just point it for Seattle, read the channel strengths and write them down, then aim it for best ch13, more NW. When you get done, split the difference between the two best directions, and then see which channels are loosing the most. It will help you to tweak it for the best direction.

If you are trying for analog reception, that requires a different antenna type, and out there, it will need to be a fairly large one. They usually don't have a very good UHF section in combination with the VHF part. And, when you tweak it for best HD reception, it may give you more ghosting on the analog reception. If you do need both types, then use two antennas. One for HD and a separate on for analog, and NOT mounted on the same mast. Keep them at least 10ft apart from each other. For the analog direction, just go for Seattle. Trying for ch13 with one will just give you ghosts on the rest. If you need ch13 analog, it will require a 3rd small yagi, and coupler.

Gets crazy, eh?!
That's what makes HD easier. If it locks on, it's perfect. No ghosts, snow, etc.

Just ask more questions or give more details on your needs, and we'll sort it out.
Dan

And just to show you how crazy this antenna game can get.....

Just did a job over in the Highlands, NE of Issaquah. New development, goes up the hillside. Quarque, check out N47.54758 & W121.99290 (Topo doesn't show streets, but it's real close). Location was about 850ft high, line of sight to Seattle. Ch13 has Cougar Mt in the way, but not that much, and it's 6 miles away. From the west side of the property, the hill drops off fast, probably 100ft down in 200ft. Nearest houses West are way down the hill, maybe a block away, no trees anywhere, 180 degree view.
No sweat, right?
So we check levels, standing in the back yard looking at Seattle high rise buildings, great numbers, +18db to +30db. Ch13, at -1db, should be better, but, a lot further away, and the house has a two story side I can mount the antenna on. Cool. Just get out the ladder, go up 10ft to 15ft, ch13 should be better. Wrong!
The higher I go, the worse it gets !! There's nothing for any signal to bounce off of, no trees, nothing. All the houses on either side are on the same North/South line, just miles of great view and everything else is way down the hill.

Go figure. I've never seen trees on hill top that far away that would have any effect, specially at this elevation.

Anyway, found an adequate spot, all is good except ch13, which, by the time we get in the house and through a 2way splitter, is just enough at -12db. The rest of the channels are fine. Waveshapes look good. This was with customers 15-2160, BTW.

Someday, might need a preamp, but okay now.
Just when you think it's slam dunk.
Probably why I have this increasing bald spot on my noggin!

Dan

Could you please check my address for ota hd reception. 1275 S.E. 8th avenue Oak Harbor. Any help in that area would be greatly appreciated!!! Robert

Thanks. I am going to go out with a compass and see if I can make any sense of this. antennaweb says komo is at 349 degrees, as with kiro and king. It seems to me I can sometimes get kiro or king , but not both. I would think if I could get one I should be able to get the others as well. As for fox and upn. I guess I'll need to get a rotator.Fox is definatly the strongest signal.

And just to show you how crazy this antenna game can get.....

Just did a job over in the Highlands, NE of Issaquah. New development, goes up the hillside. Quarque, check out N47.54758 & W121.99290 (Topo doesn't show streets, but it's real close). Location was about 850ft high, line of sight to Seattle. Ch13 has Cougar Mt in the way, but not that much, and it's 6 miles away. From the west side of the property, the hill drops off fast, probably 100ft down in 200ft. Nearest houses West are way down the hill, maybe a block away, no trees anywhere, 180 degree view.
No sweat, right?
So we check levels, standing in the back yard looking at Seattle high rise buildings, great numbers, +18db to +30db. Ch13, at -1db, should be better, but, a lot further away, and the house has a two story side I can mount the antenna on. Cool. Just get out the ladder, go up 10ft to 15ft, ch13 should be better. Wrong!
The higher I go, the worse it gets !! There's nothing for any signal to bounce off of, no trees, nothing. All the houses on either side are on the same North/South line, just miles of great view and everything else is way down the hill.

Go figure. I've never seen trees on hill top that far away that would have any effect, specially at this elevation.

Anyway, found an adequate spot, all is good except ch13, which, by the time we get in the house and through a 2way splitter, is just enough at -12db. The rest of the channels are fine. Waveshapes look good. This was with customers 15-2160, BTW.

Someday, might need a preamp, but okay now.
Just when you think it's slam dunk.
Probably why I have this increasing bald spot on my noggin!

Dan
Dan - yes, at first glance that location does look like cake. But obviously you were getting some sort of interference. My guess would be a reflection off the buildings between your location and Gold Mtn. (and possibly below the main signal path). It only takes a 10-foot square at just the right angle to do it, and at a low angle of incidence the reflected signal is very strong. The fact that it got worse as you went higher also supports this theory - you were getting closer to the center of the reflection. If it was coming from the side then height would have had little effect.

I bet if you could have gone another 50 feet up it would have disappeared and you would have been solid. It would have been interesting to tilt the antenna upwards to see if that killed the reflection from below. I know you don't put any stock in antenna tilt but I've seen it work in similar cases. A friend of mine on the east coast had perfect reception until a low flat-roofed building went up about 1/2 mile away and about 300 feet lower in altitude. He tried everything he could think of and then I mentioned TILT. So he tilted his antenna upwards about 20 degrees and his problem disappeared.

oops accidentally got this in the wrong thread. never mind

The CM4228 it up about 20-25 feet... I don't know if there is interferance from the Air Force? I doubt the base is causing your problem. They don't use anything close to the HD frequencies that I know of. It is more likely a reflection off a building. If you can't easily move the 4228 then pick up a $25 Rat Shack 15-2160 that you can move around. If you find the sweat spot you can either keep it or move the 4228 and return the 2160.

Could you please check my address for ota hd reception. 1275 S.E. 8th avenue Oak Harbor. Any help in that area would be greatly appreciated!!! Robert
You are at about 80 feet elevation. You have some 300-foot hills to the south (east of Fort Casey) that are partially blocking your path to QA hill. It is difficult to say if they are a complete buzzkill. If you have no HD equipment yet you might want to borrow some or hire an installer to do a survey. You will probably need to put a mast on the roof with a good antenna + amplifier. The Seattle stations are not as strong in the NW direction, so that doesn't help either.

Dan - yes, at first glance that location does look like cake. But obviously you were getting some sort of interference. My guess would be a reflection off the buildings between your location and Gold Mtn. (and possibly below the main signal path). It only takes a 10-foot square at just the right angle to do it, and at a low angle of incidence the reflected signal is very strong. The fact that it got worse as you went higher also supports this theory - you were getting closer to the center of the reflection. If it was coming from the side then height would have had little effect.

I bet if you could have gone another 50 feet up it would have disappeared and you would have been solid. It would have been interesting to tilt the antenna upwards to see if that killed the reflection from below. I know you don't put any stock in antenna tilt but I've seen it work in similar cases. A friend of mine on the east coast had perfect reception until a low flat-roofed building went up about 1/2 mile away and about 300 feet lower in altitude. He tried everything he could think of and then I mentioned TILT. So he tilted his antenna upwards about 20 degrees and his problem disappeared.

quarque
Yes, I tried tilt, always do. You never know when it might be that one spot where it counts. It didn't make any difference. When there is a big reflection, you can see it on the display. Soon as you point it off axis, it will show a mirror image, sort of, and a little weaker. Moving it all around showed nothing like that. I agree, there was something affecting it, though, and my money is something on the hill in the distance. Reflections, or the results of them, are common in city, or to a much lesser degree in the burbs. To find one that touchy, with that much open area, when the other 99.9% of the time it's a slam dunk, is very wierd. That's why the post about it. For those that are struggling with an install in what seems like an easy location, it does happen. Just keep moving it to different locations, and not always higher. In the trees, you can sometimes sneak under the tree canopy by going really low.
Dan

I don't get audio in my rear speakers for KCTS' (OTA 9-5) HD Dolby D programs, like the Cream concert and Soundstage. Is that just the way it is?

Here's what KCTS says about HD audio:

At KCTS, as well as other PBS stations, we face some challenges in
providing our viewers surround audio. They are:

1. PBS has chosen to distribute Dolby surround audio in the AC-3
format, reasoning that it would be easier for smaller market stations to
merely "pass through" that signal without having to record or edit it.
Dolby AC-3 was designed specifically for transmission and cannot be
edited properly with video and does not record or pass through standard
broadcast PCM digital equipment.

2. The KCTS master control switcher is a PCM (audio) device, therefore
even though we can record the AC-3 audio on some of our equipment, it
will not pass through the "air" switcher intact. We are experimenting
with some switching equipment that will bypass the master control
switcher, but so far have run into problems keeping the video and audio
in sync. This was not a surprise, as the video is often delayed as it
passes through different pieces of processing equipment.

3. Last, and certainly no least, PBS currently provides only
"SOUNDSTAGE" in surround (Dolby 5.1) and everything else comes to us as
two channel stereo (Dolby 2.0)

For the time being, we have chosen to send all audio to our digital
transmitters as 2.0. It is felt that it would be a disservice to our
viewers (not to mention unethical) to "simulate" surround audio from
material that is almost entirely two channel stereo. The commercial
stations do it, but we do not. The viewer is left the option to enable
their Dolby Prologic surround function at home or listen to the 2.0
audio as it was intended.

We will continue to try to resolve these issues, both with PBS and with
our equipment. We appreciate any and all viewer feedback. Thank you,

Bill Fast
Audio Director
KCTS-TV

Anybody else notice very distorted audio on KING 5.1 during Surface tonight? Sent me running to the backup (analog) TV and rabbit ears. OTA with the Rat Shack Accurian receiver. Other stations were fine.

Some brief distortion during Las Vegas as well. They flipped over to SD briefly, but then seemed to get it fixed.

I just checked my recording from last night and the sound is horrible. No center, and lots of distortions out of the front speakers.

It wasn't just KING, there are other reports on HDTV Programming's Surface thread.

I checked on my recording of Surface on KING last night half way through and noticed the distorted sound. Other HD channels were fine, so I was hoping it was a broadcast problem, rather than something wrong with my tuner.

Anyway, switched to the analog station on cable and caught the last half.

Anybody else notice very distorted audio on KING 5.1 during Surface tonight? Sent me running to the backup (analog) TV and rabbit ears. OTA with the Rat Shack Accurian receiver. Other stations were fine.
yeah it was total crap. I'm thinking of reconfiguring my audio connections so I can watch HD video but listen to SD audio off my VCR tuner. Right now most of my audio is controlled by which input on the TV is active (2 component + 4 Svideo). All the Svideo sources feed 2ch stereo to the TV which then feeds the DD audio system (receiver). The receiver then lets me select any of several surround simulators besides DD 2.1, 5.1, 6.1 and DTS. It makes it very convenient when switching source material but it lacks flexibility. I never thought I'd need to split audio & video sources but lately HD audio has been terrible on half the shows I've tried to watch. I don't watch that much live primetime HD so it is really annoying when I do. I will have to decide which is the lesser of 3 evils: bad audio, out of sync audio, poor video... :(

The problem appears to be a compatibility issue with the Comcast Cable box. I don't see that off the air. The viewer complaints of the audio dropouts have come only from Comcast subscribers when switching from stereo to 5.1 DD. KOMO has established an operating practice of making that switch only at the beginning of the evening's HDTV programing to minimize interruptions. Previously, it occurred every time the station switched between network and local programming...ie...local station breaks, commercials, etc. Permantly locking on 5.1 was tried but there were other problems.

It appears that the Comcast box takes 10 or more seconds to re-lock after the switch from 2.0 to 5.1.

We are still working with Comcast to find an answer.

Don


Don,
FYI, this is Ron Diotte, CE of KSTW. I watch KOMO-DT on comcast direct with no cable box on a Sony XBR-960. I get the same interruption of audio when KOMO switches from local breaks going into ABC Net...the audio drops out completely for about 10 seconds before it comes back.
You are correct though that the OTA of KOMO-DT does NOT exhibit this problem. You might pass this on to Kelly A.

Ron D

Don,
FYI, this is Ron Diotte, CE of KSTW. I watch KOMO-DT on comcast direct with no cable box on a Sony XBR-960. I get the same interruption of audio when KOMO switches from local breaks going into ABC Net...the audio drops out completely for about 10 seconds before it comes back.
You are correct though that the OTA of KOMO-DT does NOT exhibit this problem. You might pass this on to Kelly A.

Ron D

I definitely get the 10 second drop out with my Samsung SIRT-351. Just confirmed it when "According to Jim" started. My pci ATSC tuner in my computer only had a momentary dropout though.

I definitely get the 10 second drop out with my Samsung SIRT-351. Just confirmed it when "According to Jim" started. My pci ATSC tuner in my computer only had a momentary dropout though.

Strange, it must have something to do with certain tuners. I do not exhibit this problem with my antenna going into my Dish DVR 942, with the audio going out optical to my Onkyo receiver.

So, here is my first post. I currently have a nifty little 36inch TV. I want to buy and Xbox 360 and don't wanna play it on my old TV. What a waste that would be! So I have been looking at the RCA HD52W59 from Wallie World at 988. I don't understand all this off-air stuff, but I have Comcat basic limited cable at $15 per month and don't wanna pay an extra $45 for digital cable. But, I want HDTV for local channels. Can I hook up an antenna for HDTV to this box? If so, how is it going to tune in at my address 323 Hawthorne Ave Pacific? Would this work and be satisfying for me? Wanna see the Hawks in High Def! :)

Don,
FYI, this is Ron Diotte, CE of KSTW. I watch KOMO-DT on comcast direct with no cable box on a Sony XBR-960. I get the same interruption of audio when KOMO switches from local breaks going into ABC Net...the audio drops out completely for about 10 seconds before it comes back.
You are correct though that the OTA of KOMO-DT does NOT exhibit this problem. You might pass this on to Kelly A.

Ron D

I always get at least a 10 second drop out on KOMO when they are switching on Sunday nights at the start of desperate housewives and Grays Anatomy and I am receiving the signal over the air. The dialogue on KOMO does not sync up either. This is the only channel this seems to be the issue with. Sync seems to be fine with the other channels.

Brian

Don,
FYI, this is Ron Diotte, CE of KSTW. I watch KOMO-DT on comcast direct with no cable box on a Sony XBR-960. I get the same interruption of audio when KOMO switches from local breaks going into ABC Net...the audio drops out completely for about 10 seconds before it comes back.
You are correct though that the OTA of KOMO-DT does NOT exhibit this problem. You might pass this on to Kelly A.

Ron D

Hi Ron -

Kelly has been in contact with Dolby Labs to try to deternine the cause of the dropout in their encoder with on some receivers. They say that the transition from 2.0 to 5.1 causes a break in the bitstream that makes some receivers have to take a few seconds to re-synchronize. The simple solution would be to leave it in 2.0 at all times. However, 5.1 has a lot to offer, and KOMO has chosen to try to solve the problem. The station automation has the equivalent of a contact closure to switch the audio along with the video. Dolby says that it will take a serial digital command to make the switch seamlessly.

What is really interesting is that some receivers see the dropout and others don't. My Samsung SIR-T160 has digital output going to a Kenwood 5.1 decoder/amplifier and I have never seen the dropout. I have recently heard of some other off-the-air receivers having the problem, however.

At any rate, be assured that the guys a KOMO are aware of the problem and are working with Dolby and Comcast to find a solution.

Don

Since I don't experience either problem, I am wondering if the 10-second delay problem is somehow related to the picture/sound sync problem. I have not experienced a sound sync problem for a long time (like a couple of years or more) from KOMO or any other local OTA HD station.

I am happy to be one of the lucky ones with a right combination of equipment.

Since I don't experience either problem, I am wondering if the 10-second delay problem is somehow related to the picture/sound sync problem. I have not experienced a sound sync problem for a long time (like a couple of years or more) from KOMO or any other local OTA HD station.

I am happy to be one of the lucky ones with a right combination of equipment.

I can't prove it, Dave, but this seems to be the case. I have been able to re-sync the sound on the few occasions that I have seen it by pulling the plug on the receiver, waiting a few minutes then plugging it back in and letting it reboot. That seems to get thing back in sync. My Samsung occasionally will fail to respond to the remote control. A reboot solves that as well.

The frustrating thing about it is that not all receivers react the same. So, we just keep trying to solve these things one at a time.

Don

Budget, I never had any of these 10 second audio loss switching issues last year on KOMO. And I'm using all the same equpment. What was a loud click or snap has become a 10 second drop out for me.

Seems before when they were passing everything as 5.1, they got it pretty good. I was getting bass and everything from the sub at one point. I guess if they are going to use the 5.1 device instead of sending the unaltered 5.1, might as well use the device 24/7. Pretty sure KIRO-DT does this and their sound has greatly improved from the times last year when you could hear dialogue in all the surround channels.

Don, I don't know what this means, but I also get the drop out with my MDM cable box, the Moto DCT series that I think is the same as the Comcast boxes.

Strangely, when I record Lost, there is no drop out. But if I watch it live, there is.

I'm going to double check this tonight if I can, but I found that pretty odd.

Tweak48
If you are on 150th and the east side of Somerset hill, south of I-90, that's a big part of the problem. The Temple is on the north side of I-90.
In any case, you really need to get that antenna outside. You're around the corner of the hill a bit.
Dan

I am in Somerset Woods, which is inbetween 150th and Somerset Elementry. I am currently using CM-3016 on rooftop for analog reception fine (with some ghosting) but I can hardly lock on HD signals from any broadcast except for KIRO (still drops when weather is bad).

Any suggestions to fix my HD reception?

So, here is my first post. I currently have a nifty little 36inch TV. I want to buy and Xbox 360 and don't wanna play it on my old TV. What a waste that would be! So I have been looking at the RCA HD52W59 from Wallie World at 988. I don't understand all this off-air stuff, but I have Comcat basic limited cable at $15 per month and don't wanna pay an extra $45 for digital cable. But, I want HDTV for local channels. Can I hook up an antenna for HDTV to this box? If so, how is it going to tune in at my address 323 Hawthorne Ave Pacific? Would this work and be satisfying for me? Wanna see the Hawks in High Def! :)
Welcome to AVS! Since your RCA TV would have an HD tuner you would only need to connect a UHF antenna to it. BUT, your location does not look good for HD. You are in a low valley with a 500 foot ridge blocking the Seattle stations. That is not to say you won't get some sort of reflected signal but it might not be very reliable reception. If you buy the RCA you could do a cheap experiment before deciding what your final HD route will be. Go to Radio Shack and buy a 15-2160 antenna ($25) and a piece of coax cable. Put the antenna outside as high up as feasible and see what you get. If it does not work, RS is pretty good about returns. Your alternatives are HD cable (which I believe you can add without buying the Digital package) or get a SAT system.

I am in Somerset Woods, which is inbetween 150th and Somerset Elementry. I am currently using CM-3016 on rooftop for analog reception fine (with some ghosting) but I can hardly lock on HD signals from any broadcast except for KIRO (still drops when weather is bad).

Any suggestions to fix my HD reception?

ikao
I would bet you're fighting the buildings in downtown Bellevue. Try different locations for the antenna. The antenna is a little small in the UHF section, which is the part that brings in HD. It may still be okay, though, if it's not old and rusty.
Dan

Thanks DanKurts.

Any recommendation on what antenna better for UHF just in case? My antenna so far looks OK (no rust and erected new ~ 5 years ago). For UHF, I can currently pick up KONG 16 fine and KTWB 22 with ghost.

I am also wondering if there are professional help in this area for this and how much it could be?

DanKurts is professional help. He sometimes posts his telephone number (Do a search by member ID).

So, here is my first post. I currently have a nifty little 36inch TV. I want to buy and Xbox 360 and don't wanna play it on my old TV. What a waste that would be! So I have been looking at the RCA HD52W59 from Wallie World at 988. I don't understand all this off-air stuff, but I have Comcat basic limited cable at $15 per month and don't wanna pay an extra $45 for digital cable. But, I want HDTV for local channels. Can I hook up an antenna for HDTV to this box? If so, how is it going to tune in at my address 323 Hawthorne Ave Pacific? Would this work and be satisfying for me? Wanna see the Hawks in High Def! :)
:) :cool:

If you have a QAM tuner you can get local digital and HD channels with the limited cable. There is an attachment that you can print on this forum that gives you the numbers with subchannels.

Don/Kelly,

I haven't had any of the audio glitches that many others have been plagued with lately, but last night, both on analogue/SD KOMO and on digital/HD KOMO, the SAP Spanish audio for George Lopez and Freddie was missing. Has it been discontinued? :(

Thanks for always working so hard to answer our questions. :)

Thanks DanKurts.

Any recommendation on what antenna better for UHF just in case? My antenna so far looks OK (no rust and erected new ~ 5 years ago). For UHF, I can currently pick up KONG 16 fine and KTWB 22 with ghost.

I am also wondering if there are professional help in this area for this and how much it could be?

ikao
There's a lot of questions to ask to figure out what you need and how much it would cost. Easier just to call, anytime, and I can go into more detail.
Dan
206-794-3993

Hello. This is my first post here. I've been reading back and think you guys are providing a great service. I live quite a bit north, have a dish, but really want locals in HD. I'm considering a CM4228 - would like it in the attic, but roof is not too much of a problem. What do you think of my chances? address is 7510 Silvana Terrace Road, zip 98292. I checked antennaweb a while back and it showed seattle HD was available, but now they are not listed?? The only ones they show now are Bellingham channels. Not sure why that would have changed. As far as terrain, i'm up on a bit of a bluff, with a few trees close by, but I should be able to avoid them. Any help (including a local retailer for the equip) would be greatly appreciated.

Hi! I just bought a CM4228 and put it on a 10 ft mast on the roof. Has a 50ft cable into the ATI HDTV wonder. I live in Everett near Lake Stevens: 112th DR SE & 26 ST, zip 98205. I am unable to get channel 4 HD for the SuperBowl. I do get 5 at 54%, 7 at 64%, 11 at 64%, 13 at 50%, 22 at 66%. I'm wondering if there is anything I could do to pull in channel 4? I'm a newbie at this. Maybe mount it 30ft up instead of 10ft? An amp? Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.

For the other poster today asking about local places for supplies: I went to Fry's. They had 3 cm4228's (I had 2 ask and the first guy couldn't find them). I've also heard of a Pringle electronics in Everett. I bought the mounting supplies at lowes.

Go Seahawks! :)

Hello. This is my first post here. I've been reading back and think you guys are providing a great service. I live quite a bit north, have a dish, but really want locals in HD. I'm considering a CM4228 - would like it in the attic, but roof is not too much of a problem. What do you think of my chances? address is 7510 Silvana Terrace Road, zip 98292. I checked antennaweb a while back and it showed seattle HD was available, but now they are not listed?? The only ones they show now are Bellingham channels. Not sure why that would have changed. As far as terrain, i'm up on a bit of a bluff, with a few trees close by, but I should be able to avoid them. Any help (including a local retailer for the equip) would be greatly appreciated.
I plotted your line-of-sight to QA hill where 4,5,7 are located (39 miles). Your situation looks rather marginal. You have some 500-foot hills to the south that block your direct path at ground level. There is always some refraction of signal that bends it down behind the hills. You might have a chance with a tall mast on your roof. You should either pay an installer to do a site survey or buy a cheap antenna and do your own "survey". A place to start is the Radio Shack 15-2160 ($25) and a hunk of coax. Put it up as high as is reasonable without a mast and see what you get. If you pull in several stations then you may want to invest in a mast and a more expensive antenna (unless the -2160 does the job). How tall is your roof? You will need all the height you can get.

Hi! I just bought a CM4228 and put it on a 10 ft mast on the roof. Has a 50ft cable into the ATI HDTV wonder. I live in Everett near Lake Stevens: 112th DR SE & 26 ST, zip 98205. I am unable to get channel 4 HD for the SuperBowl. I do get 5 at 54%, 7 at 64%, 11 at 64%, 13 at 50%, 22 at 66%. I'm wondering if there is anything I could do to pull in channel 4? I'm a newbie at this. Maybe mount it 30ft up instead of 10ft? An amp? Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.

For the other poster today asking about local places for supplies: I went to Fry's. They had 3 cm4228's (I had 2 ask and the first guy couldn't find them). I've also heard of a Pringle electronics in Everett. I bought the mounting supplies at lowes.

Go Seahawks! :)

It is difficult to say why ch 4 won't come in. The common problems are: blockages and reflections. Since you get most channels at reasonable levels it is unlikely to be a weak signal but you never know. The first thing to try is moving the antenna up,down,left,right. You could try a preamp for grins. Does your signal meter show anything at all when you tune to digital ch 4?

Hey guys, been gone a long time...!

I'm going to make one last update to the Puget Sound DTV FAQ and then I'd like to turn it over to someone else who has more time. If you feel like you can step up, let me know via PM.

I'm sure everyone here is looking forward to seeing the Hawks in HD on Superbowl Sunday! I sure am!

-Lance

we just moved to new place, and HDTV reception has been up and down... i tried many antenna with decent success... but there are lots of drops... using my hdtv's signal strength thing(samsung), i usually get 5~8 bars for most channels... but it drops to 2~3 quite often. if it was constantly bad, it wouldn't be as annoying, but going from 5~8 bar to 0~2 bar every... 30~60 sec is annoying. =( any idea how to improve the situation? i've tried... let's see. zenith antenna thing(which didn't really work.... then broke.lol....), radio shack(triangle one. working decently), another radio shack one(oval & amplified. it was even worse)... i'm even thinking about outdoor antenna but i don't know where to start on that.=d

my address is
22416 5th pl w
bothell, wa 98021

it's on the top of nike hill, near 224th ave sw. about half mile northwest from the fire department & FEMA thing. and like.. east of kenmore gun range.

so ya, i've been trying to read more about solutions... and it's confusing. just way too much info.XD so any tips would be nice.

I hope somebody can give me some help. I have a CM4228 which is working o.k. , not great. I currently receive channels 4,7,11,13, and some others that come and go. I used to get 5,but have not for a few months now. Also channel 7 is starting to drop out with a weak signal every now and then. I live at 133XX North Echo Lake Road, Snohomish, and was wondering if someone could let me know about the topograghy. I'm pretty sure that I'm on top of a pretty good hill here but not sure if there is something in the way between me and Q.A. Hill. I do have trees around that I'm sure play into it also (THIS IS THE NW). After reading through a lot of these posts I have learned that maybe I need to try moving my antenna around and see what happens??????? I mounted it on the eave of my roof at the tallest point but maybe another spot would be better??? Any help would be much appreciated.

we just moved to new place, and HDTV reception has been up and down... i tried many antenna with decent success... but there are lots of drops... using my hdtv's signal strength thing(samsung), i usually get 5~8 bars for most channels... but it drops to 2~3 quite often. if it was constantly bad, it wouldn't be as annoying, but going from 5~8 bar to 0~2 bar every... 30~60 sec is annoying. =( any idea how to improve the situation? i've tried... let's see. zenith antenna thing(which didn't really work.... then broke.lol....), radio shack(triangle one. working decently), another radio shack one(oval & amplified. it was even worse)... i'm even thinking about outdoor antenna but i don't know where to start on that.=d

my address is
22416 5th pl w
bothell, wa 98021

it's on the top of nike hill, near 224th ave sw. about half mile northwest from the fire department & FEMA thing. and like.. east of kenmore gun range.

so ya, i've been trying to read more about solutions... and it's confusing. just way too much info.XD so any tips would be nice.
Your line-of-sight to the major stations is OK so I think your problem is related to the type of antenna and location. You are far enough away that indoor may never be reliable. You should bite the bullet and put up an outdoor unit. The cheap way to go is the Radio Shack 15-2160 ($25). The Channel Master 4221 is the best all-around unit below 25 miles but it can be difficult to find. You could try an attic installation but again, indoors is always trickier than outdoors.

I hope somebody can give me some help. I have a CM4228 which is working o.k. , not great. I currently receive channels 4,7,11,13, and some others that come and go. I used to get 5,but have not for a few months now. Also channel 7 is starting to drop out with a weak signal every now and then. I live at 133XX North Echo Lake Road, Snohomish, and was wondering if someone could let me know about the topograghy. I'm pretty sure that I'm on top of a pretty good hill here but not sure if there is something in the way between me and Q.A. Hill. I do have trees around that I'm sure play into it also (THIS IS THE NW). After reading through a lot of these posts I have learned that maybe I need to try moving my antenna around and see what happens??????? I mounted it on the eave of my roof at the tallest point but maybe another spot would be better??? Any help would be much appreciated.

You have no hills in the way (trees?). I think moving the antenna is a good place to start. I just moved mine today from one side of my chimney to the other. I had perfect reception on all major stations until a couple months ago. Then ch 4 started to drop out. As a stopgap I put my little indoor bowtie on an A-B switch and just switched antennas when necessary. Today I was putting a cap on the chimney and decided to move the mast while I was up there. It is only 2.5 feet away from the old location but now ch 4 comes in solid. So it just goes to show that when you have trees to deal with it is a constant battle. As they grow they create new problems every year. The CM4248 may be a better choice if you can't find a reliable spot with the 4228.

Hey guys, been gone a long time...!

I'm going to make one last update to the Puget Sound DTV FAQ and then I'd like to turn it over to someone else who has more time. If you feel like you can step up, let me know via PM.

I'm sure everyone here is looking forward to seeing the Hawks in HD on Superbowl Sunday! I sure am!

-Lance

Hi Lance - great to hear from you again. I am wondering just how much time this FAQ project is taking. I don't have much spare time either but perhaps some others would take it on if they knew what was required.

Oh yes, and GO SEAHAWKS! We're going to kick their...

<snip>it's on the top of nike hill, near 224th ave sw. about half mile northwest from the fire department & FEMA thing. and like.. east of kenmore gun range.<snip><snip>The Channel Master 4221 is the best all-around unit below 25 miles but it can be difficult to find. <snip>
I see that there is a 4221 and Hughes HTL-HD for sale in Bothell on Craigslist
http://seattle.craigslist.org/ele/129413980.html

HTH,
Dale

Well after 3 days of fiddling I still can't get channel 4 reliably. I increased my mast height to 20ft from 10ft and signal strength went from 20% to 50% on channel 4 but still drops off to much to be watchable. Channels 5 & 7 come in reliably at about 80% now. I'm wondering if I another 10ft up would work? It would be a lot of work to get the mast that high with guy wires so I'm not to excited about doing it. Does anyone know the broadcasting altitude of Channel 4 compared to 5 & 7? I still don't have a pre-amp, maybe I should try that first? I'm getting a little discouraged. Although it's nice to have the other channels working, the whole reason I started this project was for good reception of the Superbowl. I'm considering just returning everything and going back to analog reception. :( Ps my general location is 112th DR SE & 26 PL SE, Everett. Using CM4228.

Well after 3 days of fiddling I still can't get channel 4 reliably. I increased my mast height to 20ft from 10ft and signal strength went from 20% to 50% on channel 4 but still drops off to much to be watchable. Channels 5 & 7 come in reliably at about 80% now. I'm wondering if I another 10ft up would work? It would be a lot of work to get the mast that high with guy wires so I'm not to excited about doing it. Does anyone know the broadcasting altitude of Channel 4 compared to 5 & 7? I still don't have a pre-amp, maybe I should try that first? I'm getting a little discouraged. Although it's nice to have the other channels working, the whole reason I started this project was for good reception of the Superbowl. I'm considering just returning everything and going back to analog reception. :( Ps my general location is 112th DR SE & 26 PL SE, Everett. Using CM4228.

Battlefan
Definitely try a preamp. The 7775 is what I use. The antennas for ch's 4-5-7-16 are all about the same height, 950ft above sea level. Trees are most likely the problem. Because each channel is a different frequency, and has a different wavelength, it changes the reception. The percentages you see are not how much signal is coming in. It's how much signal for how much noise, or signal to noise ratio. You could be right on the edge of minimum amount, and the preamp might be be enough to make it work. The only catch is it adds its own noise as well. Usually it's not enough to bother overall reception. It's well worth trying, though, before going higher.
One other thing to check. Make sure the two wires from the antenna connection screws to the balun are not twisted together.
Dan

I'm speaking of the strength meter on my tv.

It has a range of 0 to 100. I'm wondering what kind of signal strength to expect for hassle free viewing. (no drops, leeway for bad weather, etc.) Is this a standardized number, or do some displays have different ways to measure signal strength?

I live in Seattle near the intersection of E. Olive and 37th. I'm seemingly close to the Capitol Hill Antennas, but I do have a hill to overcome, and some trees in the way.

I thought I was going to be able to get by with an interior antenna because I'm so close, but I only seem to be able to obtain a signal strength of 70 +/- for the 3 major networks. This is typically okay, but when the weather turns nasty KIRO seems to drop out quite a bit. Also, I can't seem to get FOX, but I haven't yet searched around this thread for that issue.

Thanks for any input.

KOMO had an issue this morning. At 6am when ABC's Sunday morning news broadcast was to start, they showed testing. The testing lasted a few minutes, then switched to George Stephanopolous' show, in progress. Consequently we all missed the update on the ABC News people who were injured in an IED blast in Iraq. I don't want to blame KOMO; the problem could have been that ABC sent the wrong feed, but it actually looked more like KOMO switched to the wrong sat channel.

Your line-of-sight to the major stations is OK so I think your problem is related to the type of antenna and location. You are far enough away that indoor may never be reliable. You should bite the bullet and put up an outdoor unit. The cheap way to go is the Radio Shack 15-2160 ($25). The Channel Master 4221 is the best all-around unit below 25 miles but it can be difficult to find. You could try an attic installation but again, indoors is always trickier than outdoors.

ya... I was planning to get outdoor unit, although i have no clue how... XD although, i guess i could ask builders since they are building like 10 new houses around my house(my house was one of first few to finish)... also, I was planning to order CM4228, but would 4221 be better? I guess there are enough spread between two sets of stations? anyway, there is a huge antenna tower thing like 1/4 miles southeast of my house. would that cause a trouble? I was reading DTV faq, and was guessing it could be the reason for sudden drops.

oh well, my builder said something about having stuff pre-wired(although, it could be for dish, not outdoor antenna), so i will talk to him tomorrow.

*edited* also, how much would professional installation cost, as i have NO clue how the antenna should be installed... hopefully i'll get all streightened out before superbowl.XD

I'm speaking of the strength meter on my tv.

It has a range of 0 to 100. I'm wondering what kind of signal strength to expect for hassle free viewing. (no drops, leeway for bad weather, etc.) Is this a standardized number, or do some displays have different ways to measure signal strength?

I live in Seattle near the intersection of E. Olive and 37th. I'm seemingly close to the Capitol Hill Antennas, but I do have a hill to overcome, and some trees in the way.

I thought I was going to be able to get by with an interior antenna because I'm so close, but I only seem to be able to obtain a signal strength of 70 +/- for the 3 major networks. This is typically okay, but when the weather turns nasty KIRO seems to drop out quite a bit. Also, I can't seem to get FOX, but I haven't yet searched around this thread for that issue.

Thanks for any input.

Em Gee
The numbers are a ratio of how much signal to how much noise. It's not really showing how much actual level is there. Just that you are above a minimum to lock in on. You could have 500uv or 5000uv or 20,000uv (microvolts) and still get the same numbers, stability and picture. They are NOT standard, or pegged to any known reference. From experience, anything over 50% to 60% that's steady, is good enough. It's nice to have more, and have seen them with 100's across the board, but not necessary for rock solid reception. A real minimum number is more than 300uv, or about -15db, give or take. You need a meter to see that.
The reason for your loss in bad weather is from being indoors. When the roof gets wet, reception fades. You also need a flat signal, seen on a meter. If it gets choppy, even with good levels, you won't lock in. That's where antenna type and location come.
Ch13 comes from Bremerton area, and goes through the buildings downtown. It can be tough, even outdoors. You will most likely need to mount something outside.
The other problem there is being so close to the 3 towers on Madison St. You can actually get overloaded, and not by the channels you're trying to receive. Sometimes reducing the signal can actually make it better. An adjustable attennuator from RatShack might be something to try, as well.
Dan

ya... I was planning to get outdoor unit, although i have no clue how... XD although, i guess i could ask builders since they are building like 10 new houses around my house(my house was one of first few to finish)... also, I was planning to order CM4228, but would 4221 be better? I guess there are enough spread between two sets of stations? anyway, there is a huge antenna tower thing like 1/4 miles southeast of my house. would that cause a trouble? I was reading DTV faq, and was guessing it could be the reason for sudden drops.

oh well, my builder said something about having stuff pre-wired(although, it could be for dish, not outdoor antenna), so i will talk to him tomorrow.

*edited* also, how much would professional installation cost, as i have NO clue how the antenna should be installed... hopefully i'll get all streightened out before superbowl.XD
I think a 4228 might be overkill - it is designed more for 40+ miles. If you feel you don't have the skills to mount an antenna then hire an installer (with a guarantee of steady reception). Installations can range from about $200 - $400 depending on the complexity. The 4221 is fairly easy to mount - you can even put it on the side of your house if it faces the right direction. It is not fussy about direction since it has a pretty wide front lobe. I can move mine almost 30 degrees without having any effect. Stop by your local home store and see what they have for mounting hardware and friendly advice.

I seriously doubt the tower you speak of is causing any problems.

Well after 3 days of fiddling I still can't get channel 4 reliably. I increased my mast height to 20ft from 10ft and signal strength went from 20% to 50% on channel 4 but still drops off to much to be watchable. Channels 5 & 7 come in reliably at about 80% now. I'm wondering if I another 10ft up would work? It would be a lot of work to get the mast that high with guy wires so I'm not to excited about doing it. Does anyone know the broadcasting altitude of Channel 4 compared to 5 & 7? I still don't have a pre-amp, maybe I should try that first? I'm getting a little discouraged. Although it's nice to have the other channels working, the whole reason I started this project was for good reception of the Superbowl. I'm considering just returning everything and going back to analog reception. :( Ps my general location is 112th DR SE & 26 PL SE, Everett. Using CM4228.
It can't hurt to try a preamp but I doubt that will do it. If you have 50% on ch 4 and it drops out it is most likely a reflection that is killing it. The best fix is to move the antenna left/right. It may not take much - as little as a foot has been known to make a difference. I just moved my antenna this weekend about 2.5 feet to the other corner of my chimney because ch 4 was dropping out. It cleared right up. It was not a lack of signal since I'm only 6 miles from the tower.

If you can't move the mast base then try a Radio Shack 15-2160 antenna. It's only $25. Each antenna has different responses to reflections coming off-axis.

quarque-
Thanks for your time. Roof line is about 30+ feet. I'll give it a try this week.
GO SEAHAWKS !!

I live in Ballard around 58th and 11th, I can see the QA towers out my window and receive both KING and KIRO fine. But KOMO is choppy, I get a 90% signal with my indoor antenna, but the picture has random pixelation problems and frequent pauses. Is this a common problem? Do I live too close to the signal? I have read many posts looking for a similar problem but everyone else seems to live much farther away than I do. I have tried moving the antenna all around my house, but no improvement. I rent so there is no chance of getting an outdoor antenna on the roof, but I live so close I don't think I should need one. I have to be able to watch the Superbowl! Let me know if you have any suggestions.
Thanks for this great resource.
Jordan

I live next to American Lake in Lakewood. I'm guessing that since I can hardly get a signal on analog with some rabbit ears in the family room or on the roof that I won't be able to get HDTV (KOMO) even with decent roof antenna. I think my particular issues are the number of old growth fir trees to the north of me. I have one opening between trees directly to the N but I'm guessing it wouldn't be enough. Any thoughts? I was going to get an old working Voom box and an RS antenna but after my analog tests I'm thinking it won't work but don't really know.

Em Gee
The numbers are a ratio of how much signal to how much noise. It's not really showing how much actual level is there. Just that you are above a minimum to lock in on. You could have 500uv or 5000uv or 20,000uv (microvolts) and still get the same numbers, stability and picture. They are NOT standard, or pegged to any known reference. From experience, anything over 50% to 60% that's steady, is good enough. It's nice to have more, and have seen them with 100's across the board, but not necessary for rock solid reception. A real minimum number is more than 300uv, or about -15db, give or take. You need a meter to see that.
The reason for your loss in bad weather is from being indoors. When the roof gets wet, reception fades. You also need a flat signal, seen on a meter. If it gets choppy, even with good levels, you won't lock in. That's where antenna type and location come.
Ch13 comes from Bremerton area, and goes through the buildings downtown. It can be tough, even outdoors. You will most likely need to mount something outside.
The other problem there is being so close to the 3 towers on Madison St. You can actually get overloaded, and not by the channels you're trying to receive. Sometimes reducing the signal can actually make it better. An adjustable attennuator from RatShack might be something to try, as well.
Dan


Dan,

Thanks for enlightening me. I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge with the forums.

Regards,

Michael

Good Day Folks, I spent the last few hours catching up on the 140 pages in this forum. I have gone from complete ignorance to informed inocence in the ways of OTA HD reception. As I am staring at my new to me 32" sony hd tv I guess it is time for me to ask the inevitable question. Can I get OTA at my location. 43 NE and NE 58th in Seattle. I sit down a bit but have a pretty good opening towards CH and downtown. I have D* on my chimney if need be I can stick a mast up there but would love to do an indoor silver sensor. Thanks for any advice you can send my way.

I live in Ballard around 58th and 11th, I can see the QA towers out my window and receive both KING and KIRO fine. But KOMO is choppy, I get a 90% signal with my indoor antenna, but the picture has random pixelation problems and frequent pauses. Is this a common problem? Do I live too close to the signal? I have read many posts looking for a similar problem but everyone else seems to live much farther away than I do. I have tried moving the antenna all around my house, but no improvement. I rent so there is no chance of getting an outdoor antenna on the roof, but I live so close I don't think I should need one. I have to be able to watch the Superbowl! Let me know if you have any suggestions.
Thanks for this great resource.
Jordan

Jordan
Run over to RatShack and get an adjustable 20db attenuator. It could be you're overloading the tuner. Normally, you wouldn't think it would happen with an indoor antenna, but it can happen. If it doesn't make a difference, you can always return it. Make small adjustments and then wait. It takes about 30 seconds to a minute for the decoder to settle down in locations like yours.
Dan

I live next to American Lake in Lakewood. I'm guessing that since I can hardly get a signal on analog with some rabbit ears in the family room or on the roof that I won't be able to get HDTV (KOMO) even with decent roof antenna. I think my particular issues are the number of old growth fir trees to the north of me. I have one opening between trees directly to the N but I'm guessing it wouldn't be enough. Any thoughts? I was going to get an old working Voom box and an RS antenna but after my analog tests I'm thinking it won't work but don't really know.

Rod S
I have one working on the NE side, south of the Country Club. Send a cross street or intersection near you for comparison.
Dan

Good Day Folks, I spent the last few hours catching up on the 140 pages in this forum. I have gone from complete ignorance to informed inocence in the ways of OTA HD reception. As I am staring at my new to me 32" sony hd tv I guess it is time for me to ask the inevitable question. Can I get OTA at my location. 43 NE and NE 58th in Seattle. I sit down a bit but have a pretty good opening towards CH and downtown. I have D* on my chimney if need be I can stick a mast up there but would love to do an indoor silver sensor. Thanks for any advice you can send my way.

greengarden
You're in a great location. An indoor might work, but you will have to move it around because of the different directions. For reliable recption, a chimney mount would be great. A 4221 antenna is what I use over there. Has an ideal wide reception angle. The small yagi type like the 15-2160 might be too narrow.
Dan

Is directv still planning on installing HD for networks in March, I live in Port Orchard about 14 miles from the towers in Seattle and had a professional installer come out and he said because of the trees it was a 50/50 chance of reception. So I bought a Terk TV5 indoor antenna just to see how it would do, on a perfect day it will tease me for a little bit and let me see what I could be getting.

I'm really having HD withdrawls, so I was wondering if directv is still planning on that new system for march?

P.S. There's a song from an 80's hair band that says (you don't know what you had, till it is gone) I think it was Cinderella. Thats how I feel now!!!

I am not sure of the exact timing, but Seattle is high on the list for DirecTV to deliver 4 local HD channels via satellite: ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox. It is not clear when other local HD channels will be offered.

March does not sound unreasonable, given the speed of their deployment so far. It appears the limiting factor has been availability of equipment, the new 5-LNB dishes in particular.

These are my observations and opinions based on monitoring various discussions here in the AVS Forum.

Awesome info in this thread. I'd love to run a question by the experts here - I live on Finn Hill, near the top by 141st st and 93rd Ave. I put the radio shack 15-2160 up on the roof, and I can reliably get 4 & 5. But I have a hard time getting both 7 and 13 (tacoma) together reliably. If I move it more south to get 7 reliably, I get dropouts on 13 and vice-versa. The dropouts go from 5 bars for a few seconds to 0-1 bars for a few seconds in the media center edition ui.

I do have it up on a pole about 10 feet off of the roof, but like a lot of homes here, I'm fighting some large trees. I've been up the roof a few times lately, and would like to make my next visit the last (at least until monsoon season is over). Is there a better antenna for this - like the cm4221, or should I consider joining two of the radio shack antennas, or a preamp? Thanks in advance.

Awesome info in this thread. I'd love to run a question by the experts here - I live on Finn Hill, near the top by 141st st and 93rd Ave. I put the radio shack 15-2160 up on the roof, and I can reliably get 4 & 5. But I have a hard time getting both 7 and 13 (tacoma) together reliably. If I move it more south to get 7 reliably, I get dropouts on 13 and vice-versa. The dropouts go from 5 bars for a few seconds to 0-1 bars for a few seconds in the media center edition ui.

I do have it up on a pole about 10 feet off of the roof, but like a lot of homes here, I'm fighting some large trees. I've been up the roof a few times lately, and would like to make my next visit the last (at least until monsoon season is over). Is there a better antenna for this - like the cm4221, or should I consider joining two of the radio shack antennas, or a preamp? Thanks in advance.I had a similar issue maybe 5 years ago and the 4221 (upon Dan Kurts' recommendation) solved all my problems. Haven't had to tweak it in years and get everything great (although I usually watch HD with the Comcast 6412 HD-DVR). I'm in the middle of the Juanita-Bothell-Kingsgate area.

All the best!

Tim

Rod S
I have one working on the NE side, south of the Country Club. Send a cross street or intersection near you for comparison.
Dan


Hi Dan,

I'm almost right on the corner of Interlaaken Dr. and Veterans Drive but a couple houses closer to the lake. We have lots of huge fir trees in our neighborhood with a small gap between them to the North.

Rod

Awesome info in this thread. I'd love to run a question by the experts here - I live on Finn Hill, near the top by 141st st and 93rd Ave. I put the radio shack 15-2160 up on the roof, and I can reliably get 4 & 5. But I have a hard time getting both 7 and 13 (tacoma) together reliably. If I move it more south to get 7 reliably, I get dropouts on 13 and vice-versa. The dropouts go from 5 bars for a few seconds to 0-1 bars for a few seconds in the media center edition ui.

I do have it up on a pole about 10 feet off of the roof, but like a lot of homes here, I'm fighting some large trees. I've been up the roof a few times lately, and would like to make my next visit the last (at least until monsoon season is over). Is there a better antenna for this - like the cm4221, or should I consider joining two of the radio shack antennas, or a preamp? Thanks in advance.

Future Phil
Normally your antenna is not that fussy about direction. What's happening is a tree or house is in the way. You need to move it to another location. Or, lower the antenna on the mast. A foot or two in ANY direction can make all the difference. Do NOT use any preamp. Signal levels are fine there, I've found. It will only make things worse. Do not put two antennas together. It makes them narrower in reception, when you need wider.
A 4221 is better in that location, but you may still be able to use the 2160 if you try a different spot.
Dan

Hi Dan,

I'm almost right on the corner of Interlaaken Dr. and Veterans Drive but a couple houses closer to the lake. We have lots of huge fir trees in our neighborhood with a small gap between them to the North.

Rod

Rod
Yes, there is a big group of trees to the NE of you on the north side of Veterans Dr. The path of my install was actually worse than yours. I only got 4-5-7-9. The rest were to ugly to lock on. I used a 4248 and preamp. It barely made it. You have a chance, if you find the right spot, though.
Call if you want more details.
Dan
206-794-3993

I bought myself a Sony KV30HS420 for Christmas, but without cable or SatTV I wanted more. I I just bought a ProBrand HD3150Plus and have it connected to an old set-top Radio Shack - Color100.

I have a lot of questions. I went to antennaweb to get aiming directions and have fiddled with it but have had limited success with maintaining a locked signal. the best is 75 which generally falls to about 40 then picture goes dark. I have heard good things about the Silver Sensor as an indoor antenna. Any recommendations are welcome.

I think an indoor antenna should be okay for my location. I live at the corner of Stone Ave and N 191st Street.

1. Do I aim the my antenna by facing the intended direction or lining up the antennas toward the target.

2. Who carries the Silver Sensor locally?

3. Is this a good tuner?

4. when aiming my antenna do I face the direction or line up the ariels and point in the direction from antennaweb.

Thanks in advance.

Rob

I bought myself a Sony KV30HS420 for Christmas, but without cable or SatTV I wanted more. I I just bought a ProBrand HD3150Plus and have it connected to an old set-top Radio Shack - Color100.

I have a lot of questions. I went to antennaweb to get aiming directions and have fiddled with it but have had limited success with maintaining a locked signal. the best is 75 which generally falls to about 40 then picture goes dark. I have heard good things about the Silver Sensor as an indoor antenna. Any recommendations are welcome.

I think an indoor antenna should be okay for my location. I live at the corner of Stone Ave and N 191st Street.

1. Do I aim the my antenna by facing the intended direction or lining up the antennas toward the target.

2. Who carries the Silver Sensor locally?

3. Is this a good tuner?

4. when aiming my antenna do I face the direction or line up the ariels and point in the direction from antennaweb.

Thanks in advance.

Rob

Rob
Not familiar with the antenna you bought, but if it has "ears", lower them and lay them flat. It's the loop part, UHF, that you need. The loop should be east-west, basically, so if you stood behind it you could look through the center "hole". The direction you need to be looking is about south. If you get the Silver Sensor, the small end is the direction you point towards south. You will need to move it around, though, as being indoors will make things touchy. Each channel may have a slightly different position.
Never heard of your tuner, can't comment on it.
Dan

Dish is offering the Superbowl in HD to 11 cities on a national feed ... including Pittsburgh. (Originally, they were only able to offer to 10 cities but the local Pittsburgh station granted a waiver.) Seattle isn't on the list. At this point, I don't know if Seattle could be offered too (KOMO would have to allow it). Sure would be a nice gesture on KOMO's end to at least offer. Those who get a clean and reliable OTA signal would do better that way anyway. But some of us have problems getting the signal 100% all the time. Wouldn't it be fitting if Seattle was #12 on the list?

Dan,
I got a silver sensor antenna in the hopes that it would alleviate the multipath interference by focusing the reception, I also tried a 20db attenuator to reduce the signal, if it was too strong. Neither solution worked for me. There is one fir tree between my house and one of the QA antenna's but I can clearly see the other two. Is it possible that one tree is causing the problems with KOMO's antenna and the other two antenna's are KIRO and KING, and that's why I can't get KOMO. I have tried every spot in my house, looking for a sweet-spot but still nothing. Any last ditch ideas, that might save me from an SD Super Bowl?
Jordan

Dan,
I got a silver sensor antenna in the hopes that it would alleviate the multipath interference by focusing the reception, I also tried a 20db attenuator to reduce the signal, if it was too strong. Neither solution worked for me. There is one fir tree between my house and one of the QA antenna's but I can clearly see the other two. Is it possible that one tree is causing the problems with KOMO's antenna and the other two antenna's are KIRO and KING, and that's why I can't get KOMO. I have tried every spot in my house, looking for a sweet-spot but still nothing. Any last ditch ideas, that might save me from an SD Super Bowl?
Jordan

You don't necessarily need to mount an outdoor antenna to your house. If the immediate concern is the Super Bowl, you might try a Radio Shack 15-2160. Like Dan said, Radio Shack accepts returns. If you have a patch of ground where you could sink a pole, you could try that. Even if you temporarily place an outdoor antenna indoors, I think you are better off than using any indoor antenna. It might not be a great room addition ... but anything to get the Super Bowl in HD!
Good Luck .... GO SEAHAWKS!!!!

Is directv still planning on installing HD for networks in March, I live in Port Orchard about 14 miles from the towers in Seattle and had a professional installer come out and he said because of the trees it was a 50/50 chance of reception. So I bought a Terk TV5 indoor antenna just to see how it would do, on a perfect day it will tease me for a little bit and let me see what I could be getting.

I'm really having HD withdrawls, so I was wondering if directv is still planning on that new system for march?

P.S. There's a song from an 80's hair band that says (you don't know what you had, till it is gone) I think it was Cinderella. Thats how I feel now!!!

I called D* and they said it will be April now. ...so expect it in June .....maybe

Dan,
I got a silver sensor antenna in the hopes that it would alleviate the multipath interference by focusing the reception, I also tried a 20db attenuator to reduce the signal, if it was too strong. Neither solution worked for me. There is one fir tree between my house and one of the QA antenna's but I can clearly see the other two. Is it possible that one tree is causing the problems with KOMO's antenna and the other two antenna's are KIRO and KING, and that's why I can't get KOMO. I have tried every spot in my house, looking for a sweet-spot but still nothing. Any last ditch ideas, that might save me from an SD Super Bowl?
Jordan

Jordan
From where you are, the KOMO tower is the one in the middle, KING on the left and KIRO on the right. Yes, one tree, close enough, can give you grief. Try to get the antenna where it has a clear shot at the tower. Try mounting it outside if need be. It's not made to be outdoors, but it would prove a good location. If you find it, then get the 15-2160 and mount it there.
Make sure you have a good cable, too. If it has a ding in it, or it's been stepped on, it may look okay, but can still wipe out a single channel. Try a new cable just for giggles, if all else fails.
I have done jobs all around you, no problem, so keep trying.
Dan

Early on in this thread, there was a post that plotted the propagation from each of the antennas of the Seattle stations.

I thought it was a PDF and have done numerous keword searches on that and other words. I have also gone through 1600 posts to try to find the link.

Could someone please help me here? I have a friend who would like the info.

Early on in this thread, there was a post that plotted the propagation from each of the antennas of the Seattle stations.

I thought it was a PDF and have done numerous keword searches on that and other words. I have also gone through 1600 posts to try to find the link.

Could someone please help me here? I have a friend who would like the info.

Try w <dot> antennaweb <dot> org

(My first post here so it won't let me type in an URL, sorry...)

Early on in this thread, there was a post that plotted the propagation from each of the antennas of the Seattle stations.

I thought it was a PDF and have done numerous keword searches on that and other words. I have also gone through 1600 posts to try to find the link.

Could someone please help me here? I have a friend who would like the info.
Leon - antennaweb does not give what you want. I think the post you are looking for is any of those by 'lkinley'. Go back to page 139 and click on the "FAQ!" in his signature. This is a document he has maintained for quite some time. It has all sorts of information including the polar plots of the main station transmitters.

Thanks, I agree antennaweb only shows the type of antenna I need vice the propagation of the stations' signals.

quarque,

Not sure what page 139 equates to as I get 50 returns on a page and only have 85 pages. That being said, I went to the members page and looked up lkinley's public profile and sure enough it was in his signature "Puget Sound DTV FAQ". Ironically, I looked at his latest posts and found one back about 41 posts in this thread where he no longer wishes to keep up the FAQ and wants to turn it over to someone else.

Thanks, I'd have never found it without your help. I've gotta hand it to you Quarque, 1190 posts, and probably 95% are actively and directly helping other members. You're great.

WOW! Here we go..so far I have a good picture showing up on channel 4-1 down here in the Yelm area. I hope it holds until the end of the Super Bowl and a Seahawk's Victory! Show all those talking heads back east who brushed us off.

GO SEAHAWKS!

Newk2-

You are currently on page 141 of this thread according to the counter in the lower left of this page.

Here is the doc you are looking for.

http://dtv.contour.org/PugetSoundDTVFAQ.zip

brownnet,

Thanks for the info. I had already found it with quarques help, but you certainly make it easy with the hot link.

I have 50 posts per page turned on in the user control panel options menu. It is not the default but I have broadband and I hate cycling through any more pages than I have to.

Thanks again.

Sadly, I won't be watching KOMO today for the super bowl, instead I get beautiful 1280x1080i from Direct TV...weeeee! HD-Lite rules! (yes the ABC west feed on D* is 1080i for some reason)

I want my 720p damnit!

Whatever happens today, just remember the 'Hawks have already done so much this year. Now lets bring the big one home for the folks in Seatown. T-town, I guess you guys can celebrate with us too, hehe.

I live in Ballard around 58th and 11th, I can see the QA towers out my window and receive both KING and KIRO fine. But KOMO is choppy, I get a 90% signal with my indoor antenna, but the picture has random pixelation problems and frequent pauses. Is this a common problem?
Jordan

This is interesting to me. I live on 83rd and 28th, and I occasionally have the same problem. KING and KIRO are fine, signal strength for KOMO always seems to be fine, but I occasionally get dropouts, pixelation, etc.

I tried an attenuator, but that actually made it worse. Strangely, though, a couple of houses were built across the street from me, somewhat blocking my view of the antennas, and my reception got better. I can't figure it out, but maybe it's a multipath thing?

Sadly, I won't be watching KOMO today for the super bowl, instead I get beautiful 1280x1080i from Direct TV...weeeee! HD-Lite rules! (yes the ABC west feed on D* is 1080i for some reason)

I want my 720p damnit!

Whatever happens today, just remember the 'Hawks have already done so much this year. Now lets bring the big one home for the folks in Seatown. T-town, I guess you guys can celebrate with us too, hehe.

DrCrawn, is that for everyone who has D*HD in the Puget Sound area? My reception on 4-1 is breaking up badly :( 1080i is better then this crap I'm getting on SD.

I just checked and we have nothing down here in Yelm

a) KOMO performance for Super Bowl: very good! only a few minor flubs with audio
b) Seahawks performance: not their best effort (after seeing the playoff games)
c) Officials performance: absolutely terrible; missed calls, wrong calls, and on and on

We could have overcome (b) OR (c) but not BOTH! I am still glad they made it to the SB even if they lost. Remember, Buffalo went FOUR times and lost FOUR times - we're just getting started!

DrCrawn, is that for everyone who has D*HD in the Puget Sound area? My reception on 4-1 is breaking up badly :( 1080i is better then this crap I'm getting on SD.

I just checked and we have nothing down here in Yelm

Should have been more specific, I'm in California right now.

As for the game:

Yeah, pretty sad that the game was so poorly officiated. It's games like this that make you never want to watch an NFL game again. The officials were just horrendous. When the NFL reviews this game, I hope they realize the game was handed to Pittsburgh by the zebras.

This is interesting to me. I live on 83rd and 28th, and I occasionally have the same problem. KING and KIRO are fine, signal strength for KOMO always seems to be fine, but I occasionally get dropouts, pixelation, etc.

I tried an attenuator, but that actually made it worse. Strangely, though, a couple of houses were built across the street from me, somewhat blocking my view of the antennas, and my reception got better. I can't figure it out, but maybe it's a multipath thing?

The new houses causing an improvement says to me you are getting one or more strong reflections. The more signals that get blocked the fewer the receiver has to sort through for a lock - even if it is the "main" signal (direct from tower).

quarque,

Not sure what page 139 equates to as I get 50 returns on a page and only have 85 pages. That being said, I went to the members page and looked up lkinley's public profile and sure enough it was in his signature "Puget Sound DTV FAQ". Ironically, I looked at his latest posts and found one back about 41 posts in this thread where he no longer wishes to keep up the FAQ and wants to turn it over to someone else.

Thanks, I'd have never found it without your help. I've gotta hand it to you Quarque, 1190 posts, and probably 95% are actively and directly helping other members. You're great.
Newk2 - sorry, I should have given you the post #. I have always used the default settings for posts/page.

Thank you for the compliment - it is something I have enjoyed doing for quite some time. After all, it was AVS that helped me out when I first set up my HD. Just givin' back to the 'hood.

I have sent Lance a PM about his FAQ. If he has not found a taker I wil try to work something out. It appears that the most important part of the whole thing is having a regular poster with the link so it is easier to find for newbies.

Should have been more specific, I'm in California right now.

As for the game:

Yeah, pretty sad that the game was so poorly officiated. It's games like this that make you never want to watch an NFL game again. The officials were just horrendous. When the NFL reviews this game, I hope they realize the game was handed to Pittsburgh by the zebras.

We outplayed the Steelers but couldn't overcome the Stealers.

Should have been more specific, I'm in California right now.

As for the game:

Yeah, pretty sad that the game was so poorly officiated. It's games like this that make you never want to watch an NFL game again. The officials were just horrendous. When the NFL reviews this game, I hope they realize the game was handed to Pittsburgh by the zebras.

DrCrawn, I did lock onto Komo... OTA, and the picture was great through out the game ...the officiating was NOT! I could not respond until this am, had to give my blood pressure time to lower and post game depression to dissipate. I too noticed a few hiccups in the sound but it was mostly when they were switching back or to commercials although I was seething so much during the game it could have just been me! (A blood pressure/ear thing) :D

The icing on the cake was the "chop block" personal foul against Matt when all he did was tackle the guy with the ball. Even Madden was dumbfounded at that one...

Was it just me or did Holmgren not even shake Bill's hand at the end of the game? I bet he was up in the officials faces, I know I would be. I hope Holmgren files a formal protest against the refs. It was truly painful to watch the Seahawks come unglued.

The icing on the cake was the "chop block" personal foul against Matt when all he did was tackle the guy with the ball. Even Madden was dumbfounded at that one...

Was it just me or did Holmgren not even shake Bill's hand at the end of the game? I bet he was up in the officials faces, I know I would be. I hope Holmgren files a formal protest against the refs. It was truly painful to watch the Seahawks come unglued.
A painful game to watch, ... in HD!

If you care to visit espn.com you can vote in their poll on various aspects of the game and the officiating. Intereresting that about 75% of the votes agree in principle with all these recent posts. And here I thought we might be bashing KOMO for screwing up the game!

I do wonder whose idea was those neon "glow in the dark" gloves worn by some of the Hawks. Too much unwarrented attention. Darn it, you should get the opponent shirt color so no one can see where your hands are.

So any word on KING and their butchering of SNL?

I'm sick of watching the show this way. Just end the damn news cast on time. Who watches Saturday night late local news anyways?

And I don't watch any of their newscasting. It's KOMO or bust in this household.

Q13 FOX also needs to tone down their bug. It's a little too white still.

I'm disoriented.

Since the windstorm, I've been unable to pick up Komo's digital signal. I'm in NW Silverdale close to Bangor, using a pair of rat shack twin bowties arranged vertically. Prior to the storm, I would pick up Komo reliably, but now, nothing. The antenna is located in the attic, on a rotator and I just can't track down the signal. I threw up my old VU-90 outside on a 15 foot mast, and could pick every station up, except Komo. There are a good number of trees between my house and Seattle, but with the exception of small branches, no large movement of trees is apparent. I'm at my wits end. I came across a used VHF/UHF antenna, that is about 9 feet long. The UHF part is only slightly larger than the VU-90, and I'm wondering if it is worth even bothering to try it. I've tried a rat shack 2160, in the attic without much success, and the VU-90 outside on the roof with the rotator with moderate sucess. I'm about ready to dump over the air (and Dish) and settle with Wavecable.

Any thoughts? I've tried the antenna on a short mast moving around the roof til I found the sweet spot, but once mounted, didn't seem to be as solid a signal. I'd like to use a chainsaw but Kitsap county would not appreciate it.

So any word on KING and their butchering of SNL?

I'm sick of watching the show this way. Just end the damn news cast on time. Who watches Saturday night late local news anyways?

And I don't watch any of their newscasting. It's KOMO or bust in this household.

Q13 FOX also needs to tone down their bug. It's a little too white still.

This KING stuff is getting bothersome. I think we've all given them plenty of time to get with the program. I'm going to put something in my signature about it and leave it there until I see SNL in HD for the first time.

It's moments like these that make me wish everything could be KOMO-DT programming :)

I'm disoriented.

Since the windstorm, I've been unable to pick up Komo's digital signal. I'm in NW Silverdale close to Bangor, using a pair of rat shack twin bowties arranged vertically. Prior to the storm, I would pick up Komo reliably, but now, nothing. The antenna is located in the attic, on a rotator and I just can't track down the signal. I threw up my old VU-90 outside on a 15 foot mast, and could pick every station up, except Komo. There are a good number of trees between my house and Seattle, but with the exception of small branches, no large movement of trees is apparent. I'm at my wits end. I came across a used VHF/UHF antenna, that is about 9 feet long. The UHF part is only slightly larger than the VU-90, and I'm wondering if it is worth even bothering to try it. I've tried a rat shack 2160, in the attic without much success, and the VU-90 outside on the roof with the rotator with moderate sucess. I'm about ready to dump over the air (and Dish) and settle with Wavecable.

Any thoughts? I've tried the antenna on a short mast moving around the roof til I found the sweet spot, but once mounted, didn't seem to be as solid a signal. I'd like to use a chainsaw but Kitsap county would not appreciate it.

miner
What's your cross streets? I'll check it out.
It's VERY posible that since the storm some trees have changed enough to cause you more grief. The problem with HD reception is you were probably right on the minimum for ch4. As long as it locks on, the picture is perfect. The signal could've been really ragged, yet give you good numbers on the receivers strength indicator. It doesn't take much change when you're going through the trees. It doesn't help that ch4 is weaker to the west. Having the antenna in your attic doesn't help.
I put up a 4221 on a store in Silverdale, west of the Mall, and we got all the channels, but needed a preamp. Had a big hill in the way.
The only thing you haven't tried is a 4221 or 4228. They have a lot more gain than the RatShack bow ties. One of those on a 5 to 10 ft mast might just do the trick.
Dan

Mr Kurts,

My cross street is Nite Owl and Gustafson.

Komo came in solid (72%) for about a minute, then was gone. I don't watch much from ABC, save Jeopardy. Before the storm, my signal strength was abour the same as that, but was usually solid.

I haven't tried the 4221 or 4228 because I can't seem to find a retailer on this side that sells them, and willing to exchange if they don't work out. With all the trees, would a Yagi be better? Would it be worth my effort to try this big UHF / VHF unit?

I appreciate the help.

Mr Kurts,

My cross street is Nite Owl and Gustafson.

Komo came in solid (72%) for about a minute, then was gone. I don't watch much from ABC, save Jeopardy. Before the storm, my signal strength was abour the same as that, but was usually solid.

I haven't tried the 4221 or 4228 because I can't seem to find a retailer on this side that sells them, and willing to exchange if they don't work out. With all the trees, would a Yagi be better? Would it be worth my effort to try this big UHF / VHF unit?

I appreciate the help.

miner
The UHF/VHF unit is worth a try, just don't be surprised at the results. It's about the same as the 15-2160. The VHF part is useless. Normally a yagi works better in the trees, but since you've already tried one with mixed results, and you were using a bow tie style initially, the 4221 would probably be ideal. Problem with all this is we're all guessing. What can you buy that will work perfect? Couldn't say, just suggest. The only true test is trying something. That's why I carry at elast 3 different flavors when going out on an unknown install area. I don't know of anyone that sells antennas and will allow returns except Radio Shack. It's too easy for someone to damage one. Also, because of all the testing required on a tough site, dealers would have a huge problem with returns, parts missing, trying to sell them as new/used, etc.
You're in a good location, terrain-wise, with only the trees around you in the first 1/4 mile being any factor. It could be enough to do you in. Then again, you were working with a whimpy antenna in an attic, so if you can find the right combination of location, antenna and direction outdoors, it should work better than before.
Patience is your friend!
Dan

Finally got channel 4 tuned in right before the superbowl. I was trying to go higher with my antenna instead of moving it around. I just had to move it about 10ft and now get a good signal for all channels. Thanks Quarqe & DanKurts for your help.

Battlefan - great work! Too bad the game was not so great.

I'm beginning to think that something happened to KOMO's signal in the last couple months. Many people including me have had recent trouble with CH 4 reception when it used to be solid. Don/Kelly: Is there any way to get a field strength reading off the antenna or some measure of radiated power at ground level to see if it is putting out full power?

Battlefan - great work! Too bad the game was not so great.

I'm beginning to think that something happened to KOMO's signal in the last couple months. Many people including me have had recent trouble with CH 4 reception when it used to be solid. Don/Kelly: Is there any way to get a field strength reading off the antenna or some measure of radiated power at ground level to see if it is putting out full power?

quarque
FWIW, just checked, I'm getting the same signal level, in db's (+/- a few tenths, no signal is rock steady), on all channels at my house in Federal Way. Waveshapes look normal, too.
Installs have all looked normal, too. Haven't noticed anything unusual.
Dan

Finally got channel 4 tuned in right before the superbowl. I was trying to go higher with my antenna instead of moving it around. I just had to move it about 10ft and now get a good signal for all channels. Thanks Quarqe & DanKurts for your help.

Battlefan
You're welcome, and well done. You're now an expert!
Dan

Interesting about KOMO-DT. Here in Port Townsend, my neighbor and I could never get KOMO, even though we both have line of sight and good antennas. If you look at their mapping, they were sending very little signal to the west.

But for the last two months or so, we are both getting solid reception. Sounds like something changed at their end, positively for me, not so great for others.

Interesting about KOMO-DT. Here in Port Townsend, my neighbor and I could never get KOMO, even though we both have line of sight and good antennas. If you look at their mapping, they were sending very little signal to the west.

But for the last two months or so, we are both getting solid reception. Sounds like something changed at their end, positively for me, not so great for others.

Something changed for me too at some recent point. Unfortunately, it became more difficult to get the signal. I could probably throw a baseball at Fischer Plaza too from where I live. I have clear line of sight to the Queen Anne towers, fairly high up on the western side of Capitol Hill around Broadway/Pine.

KOMO has been 64-66% at best recently, and will drop considerably lower if I point my antenna in the wrong direction, it used to be in the upper 70s almost anywhere I pointed it.

I live in Downtown Bellevue and I want to install an OTA antenna!
But first how many stations are broadcasting HD in Seattle area??
Any experiences with these??
By the way I live on 4th with 110th!
Any sugesstions greatly appreciated!

I live in Downtown Bellevue and I want to install an OTA antenna!
But first how many stations are broadcasting HD in Seattle area??
Any experiences with these??
By the way I live on 4th with 110th!
Any sugesstions greatly appreciated!

Technics
There are 8 major stations broadcasting HD carriers. How much of the content is actually HD varies, but even standard content looks better without noise and ghosting.

Reception on 110th & 4th NE. You have some buildings in the way. If you're on upper floors, west side, and can see downtown Seattle, then a small indoor like the silver sensor, near the west windows would work fine. If you're on a ground or lower floor, not good.

If you meant 4th SE, a 4221 or 4248 will work, but it seems to be fussy about which. I have several around there, and it varies. There are some trees that seem to make a little trouble.
Dan

Is anyone in Whatcom County able to pick up Seattle DT signals over-the-air....I may be moving there, would have some elevation with nice unobstructed views to Seattle and Vancouver but worry that distance is too much. Also, the Van HD signals are very weak right now, best ERP is only 30.5 for CBUT (according to NW Broadcasters)

Is anyone else seeing aspect changes pop in and out occasionally?
Was watching the 5000m skating in regular def (my TV is regular def as well) from the satellite, and they interviewed the American winner, Hedrick, and it was really jumping in/out (full/stretched) about every second. Trying to find out if my old E86 receiver is dying or they're just having production problems.
Dan

I'm watching via Comcast and haven't seen any sign of stretch. But, now and then, in packaged pieces, I do see 4x3 with sidebars for individual shots.

Is anyone in Whatcom County able to pick up Seattle DT signals over-the-air....I may be moving there, would have some elevation with nice unobstructed views to Seattle and Vancouver but worry that distance is too much. Also, the Van HD signals are very weak right now, best ERP is only 30.5 for CBUT (according to NW Broadcasters)
ryan11 - distance is not usually the problem (I did a DX experiment last summer and pulled in Spokane at 116 miles with a small RS yagi). Usually the problems are reflections and blockages. If you have an intersection (or lat/lon) you can give me, I can check out the terrain. If you have thick stands of trees to go through you may lose too much signal to have reliable reception. That would be the most likely problem. There are several AVS members pulling in from 60+ miles.

Is anyone else seeing aspect changes pop in and out occasionally?
Was watching the 5000m skating in regular def (my TV is regular def as well) from the satellite, and they interviewed the American winner, Hedrick, and it was really jumping in/out (full/stretched) about every second. Trying to find out if my old E86 receiver is dying or they're just having production problems.
Dan
Dan - I didn't notice any of this myself OTA, but then I didn't watch every second of the coverage. It's either the E86 or the bourbon... :D

This is probably a more general OTA question, but is it even still possible to get those RadioShack UHF double bow-tie antennas anywhere? It doesn't seem to be carried at any of the local stores. I have a Zenith SilverSensor and it seems to work OK, though I have to keep reorienting it to get reliable signal based on the channel I'm tuning. Most of that is likely due to my very poor location--even though I'm only 1-2mi from the transmitters, I'm in a condo downtown and don't have line of sight to anything except maybe FOX.

I figured I'd see if I can try one of the double bowtie setups to see if that improves my reception at all...any suggestions on a local place to find one?

Dan - I didn't notice any of this myself OTA, but then I didn't watch every second of the coverage. It's either the E86 or the bourbon... :D

quarque
Watched this evening, looked fine. Go figure. E86 has definitely seen better days, just like me!
Amazing how much better downconverted HD is on analog sets. Had to turn down the sharpness, though, lot of ringing in video. Wish I had a big HD set. Probably never get off the couch though!
Dan

This is probably a more general OTA question, but is it even still possible to get those RadioShack UHF double bow-tie antennas anywhere? It doesn't seem to be carried at any of the local stores. I have a Zenith SilverSensor and it seems to work OK, though I have to keep reorienting it to get reliable signal based on the channel I'm tuning. Most of that is likely due to my very poor location--even though I'm only 1-2mi from the transmitters, I'm in a condo downtown and don't have line of sight to anything except maybe FOX.

I figured I'd see if I can try one of the double bowtie setups to see if that improves my reception at all...any suggestions on a local place to find one?

seadan
The bow tie is just going to make it worse. It has far wider reception angles, which means it looks at more of the signals bouncing around inside and outside. It's tough enough when you do have line sight in town.
To give you a better concept of what's going, open the sliding door to the deck of your condo. Sit inside maybe 10 feet back from the door. Now listen for a car honking it's horn. Impossible to tell where the car really is relative to you. Now go out on the deck. You'll have a little better chance if it's right below or near where you can see it, but if it's around the corner, all you'll hear is many echos bouncing off everything. Now imagine the level of the sound is similar to riding on a ferry boat upper deck, outside, and they blow the horn. That's how strong the signal is downtown. No way you can pick out any direction. All you hear is loud noise. Same problem for the receiver. Add to the problem that different channels have their own frequency and wavelength, and the bounces all come in at different angles and strength.
The fact you're getting ANY reception is good. The Sensor, by its narrow reception design, "looks" in one direction and rejects some of the bounces (echos). I think it's going to be about the best you can do. There are other indoor types, of course, but all are most likely going to require moving around for each channel. Whatever you try, make sure it's NOT amplified.
Dan

Is anyone else seeing aspect changes pop in and out occasionally?
Was watching the 5000m skating in regular def (my TV is regular def as well) from the satellite, and they interviewed the American winner, Hedrick, and it was really jumping in/out (full/stretched) about every second. Trying to find out if my old E86 receiver is dying or they're just having production problems.
Dan

I noticed it too.

This is probably a more general OTA question, but is it even still possible to get those RadioShack UHF double bow-tie antennas anywhere? It doesn't seem to be carried at any of the local stores. I have a Zenith SilverSensor and it seems to work OK, though I have to keep reorienting it to get reliable signal based on the channel I'm tuning. Most of that is likely due to my very poor location--even though I'm only 1-2mi from the transmitters, I'm in a condo downtown and don't have line of sight to anything except maybe FOX.

I figured I'd see if I can try one of the double bowtie setups to see if that improves my reception at all...any suggestions on a local place to find one?

If you don't mind wasting money you can order the double-bowtie (15-624) online for $15 + shipping. But their website says they are out of stock right now. And as Dan said it will probably be worse, but you never know. If you want to try something really cheap, RS has a single bowtie (15-234) that is available in many stores. It is only $3.99, so not much of a dent in your wallet. It has twinlead instead of coax so you'll have to kludge something or use a balun.

Hello guys,
I was wondering if you could tell me whether OTA is possible at cross streets Avondale RD NE and NE 95th St 98052
Thanks for your help :)

Hello guys,
I was wondering if you could tell me whether OTA is possible at cross streets Avondale RD NE and NE 95th St 98052
Thanks for your help :)

That location is a low spot and there are high hills to the SW that block the signal. It does not look good.

FYI, just got off the phone with the satellite dudes, asking some questions about the hd locals, coming in April. Asked when certain other stations like History, NGC, etc would be available in HD, they said by end of 2007, they expect to have over 150 channels in HD, and BTW, TNT is now on, no charge, in HD ! Check ch 75.
Dan

I have no OTA recption right now of KING-DT, ch 5.1/48.1 and 5.2/48.2.

I have never had problems with KING-DT before.

Anyone else having problems?

Perhaps someone here can help me. I live in Wedgwood, in a low spot on the top of the Wedgwood ridge at latitude 47.697478, longitude -122.285113. I've tried numerous indoor antennas (including Silver Sensor), which haven't gotten me more than 20% signal on any OTA channel I tried. I've tried looking at topo maps to see what's getting in the way but haven't been able to make heads or tails out of what I've been finding.

Is OTA an option for my location without an outdoor antenna? Is an attic antenna an option (wood siding, no neighbor to my south, moderate tree cover)?

If an outdoor antenna is my only hope, can anyone recommend an installer? I'm starting to get a reputation for clumsiness at the local emergency room. ;-)

Perhaps someone here can help me. I live in Wedgwood, in a low spot on the top of the Wedgwood ridge at latitude 47.697478, longitude -122.285113. I've tried numerous indoor antennas (including Silver Sensor), which haven't gotten me more than 20% signal on any OTA channel I tried. I've tried looking at topo maps to see what's getting in the way but haven't been able to make heads or tails out of what I've been finding.

Is OTA an option for my location without an outdoor antenna? Is an attic antenna an option (wood siding, no neighbor to my south, moderate tree cover)?

If an outdoor antenna is my only hope, can anyone recommend an installer? I'm starting to get a reputation for clumsiness at the local emergency room. ;-)

jfew
You're on the backside of the hill. There's about 3/4 of a mile of trees and houses in your way. Signal comes more from the SW. It's not impossible, but will need an outdoor antenna to work. Ch13 will be tough. Ch's 9, 11 & 22 should be fine.
I'm also an installer. Call and I can give you guesstimates of cost and details of what you need to do it yourself.
Dan
206-794-3993

Would someone mind checking what my chances of HD reception are? I'm out in Sultan, the nearest intersection is Gohr Rd and North Park Dr. Thanks!