I need some help from some of the experts here.

I have been experimenting with different antennaes trying to get all the HD channels. When I built my house last year, I installed a RS VHF/UHF combo unit (don't remember the model number) in my main attic. When I tried to get HD on my new Panasonic in March, I got almost everything: 4-1, 5-1,-2, 7-1 -2, 9-1-3-5 and 13-1. Then the leaves came out and I lost 5-1,-2 :(

Since then I have tried both the CM 4221 and RS 15-2160 in my garage attic (easier access and a spare cable run) and outside at various spots around the house with a ladder. I have never been able to get 5-1,-2 anywhere with these antennaes. Currently I have the CM 4221 in the garage attic and I get all I had before plus 11-1, 16-1,-2 and 22-1, but not 5-1,-2.

My next thought would be to try the 4228 or a pre-amp. Do you think this would help or do you have better suggestions? I would really prefer to keep something in the attic since I get almost everything already there.

My cross streets are 352 ave and 14th st. I'm about 560 ft elevation and I do have some trees that are about 150 - 250' from the house. Thanks.

I need some help from some of the experts here.

I have been experimenting with different antennaes trying to get all the HD channels. When I built my house last year, I installed a RS VHF/UHF combo unit (don't remember the model number) in my main attic. When I tried to get HD on my new Panasonic in March, I got almost everything: 4-1, 5-1,-2, 7-1 -2, 9-1-3-5 and 13-1. Then the leaves came out and I lost 5-1,-2 :(

Since then I have tried both the CM 4221 and RS 15-2160 in my garage attic (easier access and a spare cable run) and outside at various spots around the house with a ladder. I have never been able to get 5-1,-2 anywhere with these antennaes. Currently I have the CM 4221 in the garage attic and I get all I had before plus 11-1, 16-1,-2 and 22-1, but not 5-1,-2.

My next thought would be to try the 4228 or a pre-amp. Do you think this would help or do you have better suggestions? I would really prefer to keep something in the attic since I get almost everything already there.

My cross streets are 352 ave and 14th st. I'm about 560 ft elevation and I do have some trees that are about 150 - 250' from the house. Thanks.

john4242
You're in a great location, but not seeing how thick or dense the trees are, can't say how they really affect things. From your descriptions, I doubt they're much of a problem. Most likely, you're almost there. Ch5 is always lower in level to the east of Seattle. Since all the rest work, I would bet if you simply continued to use the 4221 where it is and added a 7775 amp, it would do it.
Dan

I am moving to Milton in a few days and need to get my tv hooked up the addy is 1500 and 9th ave ct. does anyone have info on recieving ota hd in this area. I am thinking of dtv and an antenna if the reception will be good.

I am moving to Milton in a few days and need to get my tv hooked up the addy is 1500 and 9th ave ct. does anyone have info on recieving ota hd in this area. I am thinking of dtv and an antenna if the reception will be good.
Your LOS to the Seattle towers looks marginal. Your success will depend on how high you can get your antenna and how thick the trees are. But it does look "possible".

I am moving to Milton in a few days and need to get my tv hooked up the addy is 1500 and 9th ave ct. does anyone have info on recieving ota hd in this area. I am thinking of dtv and an antenna if the reception will be good.

pjjnw
Sadly it's tough where you are.
I know this area very well. My great grandparents used to own the Hi Dive resort at Suprise lake. Have a few family folk still around Milton and Edgewood. They've asked me to try HD there, not good. There are lots of trees in your way.
My great aunt used to live only 2 blocks from you, further east up the hill, and reception for analog was pretty bad. I have done some surveys around you, at higher elevations and that was lousy, too.
I would go for comcast. If you can get a cable card ready TV or tuner with QAM, they have the local hd channels on basic for about $12/mo. You don't need to pay extra for the cable box.
Dan

Was Medium on KING last night bad for anyone else? Lots of audio dropouts.

Was Medium on KING last night bad for anyone else? Lots of audio dropouts.

I haven't watched it yet, but just this morning I was thinking we haven't had many technical issues with HD lately. Maybe the stations are finally getting things setup right and HD is maturing to the point where they can actually switch over.

Just an FYI for those with Dish Network, Sat provided broadcasts are now up and running for KOMO, KING, and KIRO, KCPQ should be showing up shortly if it hasn't already (haven't looked since last night). These are MPEG4 channels so you need to be using one of their MPEG4 receivers (non DVR: 411/211, DVR: 622). Just thought I'd post this for anyone with the service.

Just an FYI for those with Dish Network, Sat provided broadcasts are now up and running for KOMO, KING, and KIRO, KCPQ should be showing up shortly if it hasn't already (haven't looked since last night). These are MPEG4 channels so you need to be using one of their MPEG4 receivers (non DVR: 411/211, DVR: 622). Just thought I'd post this for anyone with the service.

How's the quality of these broadcasts? How much extra do you have to pay to receive these HD channels? Do the standard definitions also come over with the MPEG4 compression? If so, did you notice any better/worse reception of those channels?

How's the quality of these broadcasts? How much extra do you have to pay to receive these HD channels? Do the standard definitions also come over with the MPEG4 compression? If so, did you notice any better/worse reception of those channels?

They are not as good as OTA. However, they are a nice backup to OTA, especially if you have issues with OTA reception. Also, they are helpful in my case, if I want to record/watch 2 local channels at the same time. My Dish ViP622 only has 1 OTA Tuner, combined with 2 Sat tuners, now I can record up to 3 different local HD channels at the same time.

The compression of MPEG-4 causes some loss of detail, it varies from scene to scene, with more detail loss in darker scenes. Kind of like comparing OTA Analog to Sat SD. Still, it's light years above anything SD. The common term for it on the Sat forums is 'HDLite".

There is no extra charge if you already have SD locals from DISH. If you do not have any locals, its' $5.00 a month for both SD and HD (if offered in your market). Of course you have to have one of their other packages as well.

Thank you to Quarque for getting me OTA details for my address. Just a quick update. I bought the Radio Shack 2160 and I have it hooked up and laying on the bonus room floor upstairs. It is connected to the TV with about 100 feet of coax.

I'm able to get 4.1 and 13.1 pretty consistently, and wow it is nice to see the basketball and nascar in HD (even though I normally don't watch them). If I move the antenna, I'll ocassionally get 7.1, but then I'll lose 4.1. I have not gotten any of the other local stations.

Now that we know that we can get it with the inexpensive RS antenna, we have 2 options.

1. Keep the RS and mount it on the roof and hope that being a 12 feet higher and outside will give us better and more channels.

2. go with the channel master 4228 or 4248 and I assume they are more multi directional, so I should be able to get all the stations.

I love the small size of the RS, how much larger are the CM antennas? I have Millenium cable, so I am only interested in the local stations for HD.

I'd love to hear your opinions on getting better reception and changing of antennas/size?

I have a steep roof, that we cannot climb onto safely.

here's my antenna web results. I'd love to get all 4,5,7,9,11,13,16

* red - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 UPN TACOMA WA 235° 20.8 36
* red - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 239° 22.4 31
* red - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 237° 43.9 14
* red - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA TBD 179° 14.0 42
* red - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 i BELLEVUE WA 179° 14.0 32
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 239° 22.6 38
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 239° 22.4 48
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 240° 22.7 39
* red - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 238° 44.5 18
* red - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 235° 20.8 41
* red - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 235° 20.8 25
* red - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 178° 14.0 50
* blue - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 179° 14.0 44

thx!

GEAF,

I have the Radio Shack 2160 antenna and I pick stations from a much wider angle than the 235 to 240 degrees stretch from your home. The antenna will have no problem with your narrow needs for Queen Anne and Capitol Hills and Gold Mountain (KCPQ).

The bigger issue could be trees and/or multipath (reflections) from large buildings between you and the Seattle towers.

Sorry to take this thread for questions about FTA...

Dan, you have mentioned this before to me when you setup the OTA HD antenna...but do you know if one can reuse the antenna setup I have for getting DirecTV's international programming to get FTA ( I know I need a different receiver)..as I have cancelled DirecTV. ALso using this, do you know if one can get Fox, CBS broadcast networks from other places ( east coast etc). I am trying to see if I can use this way to get NFL games for the Philadelphia Eagles come fall. I have checked lyngsat but couldnt tell much myself...

thanks

Thank you to Quarque for getting me OTA details for my address. Just a quick update. I bought the Radio Shack 2160 and I have it hooked up and laying on the bonus room floor upstairs. It is connected to the TV with about 100 feet of coax.

I'm able to get 4.1 and 13.1 pretty consistently, and wow it is nice to see the basketball and nascar in HD (even though I normally don't watch them). If I move the antenna, I'll ocassionally get 7.1, but then I'll lose 4.1. I have not gotten any of the other local stations.

Now that we know that we can get it with the inexpensive RS antenna, we have 2 options.

1. Keep the RS and mount it on the roof and hope that being a 12 feet higher and outside will give us better and more channels.

2. go with the channel master 4228 or 4248 and I assume they are more multi directional, so I should be able to get all the stations.

I love the small size of the RS, how much larger are the CM antennas? I have Millenium cable, so I am only interested in the local stations for HD.

I'd love to hear your opinions on getting better reception and changing of antennas/size?

I have a steep roof, that we cannot climb onto safely.

here's my antenna web results. I'd love to get all 4,5,7,9,11,13,16

* red - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 UPN TACOMA WA 235° 20.8 36
* red - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 239° 22.4 31
* red - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 237° 43.9 14
* red - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA TBD 179° 14.0 42
* red - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 i BELLEVUE WA 179° 14.0 32
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 239° 22.6 38
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 239° 22.4 48
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 240° 22.7 39
* red - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 238° 44.5 18
* red - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 235° 20.8 41
* red - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 235° 20.8 25
* red - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 178° 14.0 50
* blue - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 179° 14.0 44

thx!
Glad to see your first experiment met with some success. I would plan on a mast on the roof or somewhere outside and up high for sure. Chimney mounts are pretty easy to do. Anywhere outside will be an improvement. Start with the 2160 since you already have it. All the major stations are in a narrow span for you so there is no reason to even think about a wider beamwidth antenna. Both the 4248 and 4228 are higher gain and narrower beamwidth, which is what you want. This will help eliminate reflected signals (multipath). If the 2160 won't cut it then try the 4248 since it is not quite as heavy as the 4228. Or, if you have a 2-story house with a wall facing QA hill you could mount the 4228 flat against the wall without a mast just below the eave. If you feel uncomfortable working up high then hire someone to do the install for you. Another option: bolt a telescoping mast to the side of the house and stand it on the ground. A friend of mine has this setup and it works well. He has it loosely clamped near the roof and when he loosens the clamp near the ground he can rotate the mast for aiming. The base just sits on a cement block on the ground. The mast is more $$ but it's cheaper than paying a pro.

Thank you to Quarque for getting me OTA details for my address. Just a quick update. I bought the Radio Shack 2160 and I have it hooked up and laying on the bonus room floor upstairs. It is connected to the TV with about 100 feet of coax.

I'm able to get 4.1 and 13.1 pretty consistently, and wow it is nice to see the basketball and nascar in HD (even though I normally don't watch them). If I move the antenna, I'll ocassionally get 7.1, but then I'll lose 4.1. I have not gotten any of the other local stations.

Now that we know that we can get it with the inexpensive RS antenna, we have 2 options.

1. Keep the RS and mount it on the roof and hope that being a 12 feet higher and outside will give us better and more channels.

2. go with the channel master 4228 or 4248 and I assume they are more multi directional, so I should be able to get all the stations.

I love the small size of the RS, how much larger are the CM antennas? I have Millenium cable, so I am only interested in the local stations for HD.

I'd love to hear your opinions on getting better reception and changing of antennas/size?

I have a steep roof, that we cannot climb onto safely.

here's my antenna web results. I'd love to get all 4,5,7,9,11,13,16

* red - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 UPN TACOMA WA 235° 20.8 36
* red - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 239° 22.4 31
* red - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 237° 43.9 14
* red - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA TBD 179° 14.0 42
* red - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 i BELLEVUE WA 179° 14.0 32
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 239° 22.6 38
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 239° 22.4 48
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 240° 22.7 39
* red - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 238° 44.5 18
* red - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 235° 20.8 41
* red - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 235° 20.8 25
* red - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 178° 14.0 50
* blue - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 179° 14.0 44

thx!


GEAF
Try the 2160 before getting another antenna. It doesn't have to be on top of the roof. As long as it's outside, and facing towards downtown Seattle, it should help. You can use a wall mount, from RatShack, and a small 6" piece of mast or pipe between them. Just mount it on the side of the house as high as possible. Of course, use a shorter piece of cable, if possible.
Dan

Thank you Dave, Quarque and Dan. You guys are incredible with the amount of help you give everyone.

Latest update for me is that in the hours of researching on AVS, I found that I could get free local HD thru my cable company, because I have a QAM tuner in my TV. I get everything except KING/KONG. I'm not sure that the quality of the HD is as good as OTA, but since my kids would have a fit if I cancelled our basic cable, I might as well use the free HD, without the hassle of threading the cable and mounting the antenna.

I'm an AVS addict now and thank everyone for their helpful input.

Sorry to take this thread for questions about FTA...

Dan, you have mentioned this before to me when you setup the OTA HD antenna...but do you know if one can reuse the antenna setup I have for getting DirecTV's international programming to get FTA ( I know I need a different receiver)..as I have cancelled DirecTV. ALso using this, do you know if one can get Fox, CBS broadcast networks from other places ( east coast etc). I am trying to see if I can use this way to get NFL games for the Philadelphia Eagles come fall. I have checked lyngsat but couldnt tell much myself...

thanks

rajeshh
No. FTA uses a bigger 36" to 40" dish and slightly different frequencies. A complete setup is only about $200, dish and receiver, give or take.
You could use the same location, I think, and cabling of course. I don't exactly remember what the houses to the SE of yours looked like for getting in the way of signal. It needs a slightly lower look at the horizon. Call if you have other questions. 206-794-3993
Dan

FLIP THE SWITCH Q13 you SLACKERS!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh. So frustrating!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I'm finally ready to move my Rat 2160 out from under the trusses, tarpaper and thick cedar shakes in the attic to a chimney mount on the roof. I hope the signal attenuation from the extra 20 feet of coax necessary to put it outside isn't more than there was sitting in the attic! Most stations were pretty good in there, but 13 was shaky watching Seahawks with frequent dropouts.

Anyway, I've got a clear shot at anywhere from the south of Safeco field north to downtown Seattle, Capitol Hill, and Magnolia. I'm approximately 153 rd SE 49th Place in south Bellevue up on the hill.

What major landmark should I point at to start with? I can use the s/s meter on the tuner to tweak from there.

Thanks for the help!

Just an FYI for those with Dish Network, Sat provided broadcasts are now up and running for KOMO, KING, and KIRO, KCPQ should be showing up shortly if it hasn't already (haven't looked since last night). These are MPEG4 channels so you need to be using one of their MPEG4 receivers (non DVR: 411/211, DVR: 622). Just thought I'd post this for anyone with the service.

Do you think my DISH 811 HD box will pick up these Sat provided broadcasts?

Do you think my DISH 811 HD box will pick up these Sat provided broadcasts?

No, it will not. Right now the only 2 receivers that will pick them up are the 411/ViP211 (name changed mid deployment) or the ViP622.

There is a promotion going on right now where you can upgrade from a 811 to a ViP211 for a $49 install fee. However you also have to change to their new HD Packages. Basically you pay $98 and you get a $49 credit when you return the 811.

Here is a link to the details on the dbstalk.com website from a Dish Tech Chat back in February when they started it: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=52857

Okay, I'm finally ready to move my Rat 2160 out from under the trusses, tarpaper and thick cedar shakes in the attic to a chimney mount on the roof. I hope the signal attenuation from the extra 20 feet of coax necessary to put it outside isn't more than there was sitting in the attic! Most stations were pretty good in there, but 13 was shaky watching Seahawks with frequent dropouts.

Anyway, I've got a clear shot at anywhere from the south of Safeco field north to downtown Seattle, Capitol Hill, and Magnolia. I'm approximately 153 rd SE 49th Place in south Bellevue up on the hill.

What major landmark should I point at to start with? I can use the s/s meter on the tuner to tweak from there.

Thanks for the help!

Tweak48
Attenuation in 20ft is zip. What you may have is overload! Aiming from there is not critical. You should be able to see the 3 towers in downtown, just to the right of the tall buildings. That's ch's 9, 11 & 22. Point it at them to start. The other 3 towers to the right are 4,5,7 & 16. Ch13 comes in from the left of the downtown buildings. Somewhere in there it will work. I usually find the signal is about 10db hot, at least, so if they act up a bit, Rat Shack has an adjustable 20db attenuator you can use, right behind the receiver. Set it for about half way to start, and then try all the channels again.
You're lucky to live there. The view West and North from your house is one my favorites in the whole area!
Dan

I just made the move to HDTV. I have Directv and purchased it with the understanding that I would be able to get local HD in a couple of weeks. After I made the move, I was then informed that local HD moved out a month (to mid-June), AND that I would have to purchase MPEG-4 compatible equipment (after I just acquired thier MPEG-2 DVR). Rumor now is the MPEG-4 DVR will be available "later this summer". So...

I am researching the option of OTA HD. Checked Antennaweb and found the following:

* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 266° 16.8 39
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 266° 16.7 38
* yellow - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 264° 14.4 25
* green - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 266° 16.5 48

There were others on the list, but getting these would be great. I got some cutesy RCA set-top antenna with amp and tried it out within the range of the attached 6' cable. I got some signal, best was about 15%, so I took it back. To do some serious testing I would have to purchase about a 50' coax and get the ladder out. Before I go to that trouble I was wondering if anyone had comments, suggestions, experiences in my immediate area. I am located at 249th Ct. SE and SE 42nd Ave. in the Klahanie development.

Thanks,
Mike

I just made the move to HDTV. I have Directv and purchased it with the understanding that I would be able to get local HD in a couple of weeks. After I made the move, I was then informed that local HD moved out a month (to mid-June), AND that I would have to purchase MPEG-4 compatible equipment (after I just acquired thier MPEG-2 DVR). Rumor now is the MPEG-4 DVR will be available "later this summer". So...

I am researching the option of OTA HD. Checked Antennaweb and found the following:

* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 266° 16.8 39
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 266° 16.7 38
* yellow - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 264° 14.4 25
* green - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 266° 16.5 48

There were others on the list, but getting these would be great. I got some cutesy RCA set-top antenna with amp and tried it out within the range of the attached 6' cable. I got some signal, best was about 15%, so I took it back. To do some serious testing I would have to purchase about a 50' coax and get the ladder out. Before I go to that trouble I was wondering if anyone had comments, suggestions, experiences in my immediate area. I am located at 249th Ct. SE and SE 42nd Ave. in the Klahanie development.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike
It's a good location. The only things to watch out for are trees nearby or houses. As long as you can see west, they all come in. A 4221 Channel Master mounted on the side of the house or higher should do it. Ch5 is a bit weaker than the rest, so being outside will help. You don't need the Mpeg4 stuff, if you can get locals with the antenna. All the other HD stuff on satellite will come in with the regular 3 head dish. The picture quality is not any better with Mpeg4, either. It just lets them put more channels in the same space. If the antenna works, you're better than satellite, too. Picture is not as compressed.
Dan

Mike213,

If the MPEG-2 DVR you now have is their HD TiVo HR10-250, then I predict that you will be much happier with that unit and good OTA reception than with their upcoming non-TiVo HR20 HD DVR.

No one but TiVo so far seems to make an HD DVR that reliably records everything you ask it to and with a friendly user interface. I have two HD TiVo's and two SD TiVo's and in six years the only recordings I have missed were due to power failures and a hard drive failure on my oldest unit (now replaced).

Since OTA digital broadcasts will be MPEG-2 for years to come, the HR10-250 will be able to record them for a long time. The national satellite HD offerings will eventually migrate from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4, but most predictions are that the change won't be completed for 2 years or more.

All SD channels on DirecTV will be MPEG-2 for a long time. DirecTV has stated that the cost of replacing millions of SD STBs for an MPEG-4 transition is too much. Perhaps through churn over a long period of time, if the new and replacement SD STBs are MPEG-4-capable, the cost/benefit picture may change.

DirecTV has a good track record for supporting continued use of discontinued hardware, such as the UltimateTV SD DVR product. People are still using them today, and there are no hints of DirecTV stopping support for them.

So, if you have an HD TiVo from DirecTV, it will likely be supported for OTA digtal TV reception/recording for a long time to come. It will also record many hours of SD satellite programming for a long time.

I expect the new HR20 unit to be an unfinished product even when it is released. It's cousin, the R15 SD DVR (non-TiVo), is struggling with many issues that affect usability and "recording what I want when I want it" reliability.

Personally, I will put off any changes from my HD TiVo's for as long as I can. At some point I may even follow TiVo over to Comcast if their implementation is successful.

Good luck with your new service and equipment. You can definitely trust Dan Kurts when he tells you that you will have successful OTA reception.

Dan & Dave,

Thanks so much for the input. I was going to wait until I had made another attempt at OTA before replying, but since you guys were so quick I wanted to acknowledge your advise.

I will be shopping for a Channel Master 4221 today and may have some results this evening - although it is raining which is a disincentive. I will post my results to the thread.

I read with interest what Dave had to say. I have been very happy with my TiVo even though I have only had it a couple of weeks. It also has the secret commercial skip which might be the best feature a DVR can have. I suspect new units will not have that "feature". So, I was thinking along the same lines as Dave suggests - get OTA and skip the MPEG-4 upgrade for now. I will be curious to see how the OTA and sat channels integrate together in the channel guide (which I have presumed they will).

Stay tuned.

Mike

Any one know who carries Channel Master antennas (specifically 4221 or 3021) in the Seattle area? Already checked with Lowes, they carry some Channel Master but not this model. Called another dozen or more places with no luck.

Tweak48
Attenuation in 20ft is zip. What you may have is overload! Aiming from there is not critical. You should be able to see the 3 towers in downtown, just to the right of the tall buildings. That's ch's 9, 11 & 22. Point it at them to start. The other 3 towers to the right are 4,5,7 & 16. Ch13 comes in from the left of the downtown buildings. Somewhere in there it will work. I usually find the signal is about 10db hot, at least, so if they act up a bit, Rat Shack has an adjustable 20db attenuator you can use, right behind the receiver. Set it for about half way to start, and then try all the channels again.
You're lucky to live there. The view West and North from your house is one my favorites in the whole area!
Dan

Thanks for the info.

I went down and rented some cleats and got the Rat 2160 mounted on the chimney this morning (pretty wet job), all the stations come in fine, with the exception of FOX, which I don't get a thing.

A couple questions; (1) do I have to point it further south of downtown; and (2) would I really be messing things up if I cut off a couple of reflector elements in order to point further south (I bump into the chimney, and I either would have to cut a couple off or go buy a longer mast).

Any one know who carries Channel Master antennas (specifically 4221 or 3021) in the Seattle area? Already checked with Lowes, they carry some Channel Master but not this model. Called another dozen or more places with no luck.

Have you tried Frys in Renton?

Thanks for the info.

I went down and rented some cleats and got the Rat 2160 mounted on the chimney this morning (pretty wet job), all the stations come in fine, with the exception of FOX, which I don't get a thing.

A couple questions; (1) do I have to point it further south of downtown; and (2) would I really be messing things up if I cut off a couple of reflector elements in order to point further south (I bump into the chimney, and I either would have to cut a couple off or go buy a longer mast).

Tweak48
1, yes, but not much. You're aiming for Port Orchard, just south of Bremerton.
2, maybe. It's hard to say how much cutting off some reflectors would affect reception. The antenna is already pretty small, not much there to work with, but you're in a hot area, so you could get away with it. If it's not too much trouble, get a longer mast. I think that would give you more consistent results.
Dan

quarque,

Yes I called Fry's, the person I talked to did not seem particularly knowledgeable but the answer was no. Also checked Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, Magnolia, Video Only, Circuit City, and several TV shops. I was hoping to not do this on-line in case there were issues but it looks like that may be the only option.
Mike

quarque,

Yes I called Fry's, the person I talked to did not seem particularly knowledgeable but the answer was no. Also checked Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, Magnolia, Video Only, Circuit City, and several TV shops. I was hoping to not do this on-line in case there were issues but it looks like that may be the only option.
Mike
I would take a trip to Fry's because they used to stock them. Some of their staff does not have a clue. Also, they keep antennas in 3-4 different places around the store, so you will have to be persistent and do some walking. Ask several people.

I would take a trip to Fry's because they used to stock them. Some of their staff does not have a clue. Also, they keep antennas in 3-4 different places around the store, so you will have to be persistent and do some walking. Ask several people.

I will be taking a trip to Fry's in the morning - yeah, they are open on the holiday!

One other question for the group. I went to Radio Shack today and picked up another indoor amplified antenna (I couldn't resist making another test). I ran about 80' of coax to the upstairs bedroom by the window that points in the right direction (based on antenna web), fired the antenna up and checked the signal on the receiver. I got absolutely no signal. I tried again from downstairs without the 80' of cable also with no luck. I had previously gotten a little signal from another little antenna from downstairs. So the question - do I need an amplifier if I am going to run 80' of coax from antenna to receiver? And would it be typical that I get very little to no signal from an indoor antenna and will still have good signal with the Channel Master 4221?

Thanks,
Mike

I will be taking a trip to Fry's in the morning - yeah, they are open on the holiday!

One other question for the group. I went to Radio Shack today and picked up another indoor amplified antenna (I couldn't resist making another test). I ran about 80' of coax to the upstairs bedroom by the window that points in the right direction (based on antenna web), fired the antenna up and checked the signal on the receiver. I got absolutely no signal. I tried again from downstairs without the 80' of cable also with no luck. I had previously gotten a little signal from another little antenna from downstairs. So the question - do I need an amplifier if I am going to run 80' of coax from antenna to receiver? And would it be typical that I get very little to no signal from an indoor antenna and will still have good signal with the Channel Master 4221?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike
No, don't buy an amp now. I doubt you'll need an amp, even with 80ft of coax.
First things first. Do the antenna, then see what it's like, and if there's prob's, let us know.
I wouldn't put much import on the Rat Shack indoor results.
Dan

No luck at Fry's. Found several Channel Masters both there and at Lowes, but no 4221 or 3021. Looks like online order with delivery hopefully before next weekend.

Any one know who carries Channel Master antennas (specifically 4221 or 3021) in the Seattle area? Already checked with Lowes, they carry some Channel Master but not this model. Called another dozen or more places with no luck.

I never did find anyone that carried the CM4221 locally. Pringles in Everett would have special ordered it for me but I was able to get it much cheaper from solidsignal.com. Dan Kurts mentioned last month that Pringles is now out of business so I dont' think there is anyone left you can get it from locally. Buying online will only cost you around $30.00 with shipping though.

robglasser,

Thanks for the input. I ordered it on-line from Amazon (actually Crutchfield) yesterday. A bit more than $30 total, but I am comfortable with Amazon without a recommendation. Looks like I should have gone with Solidsignal - oh well. Now the question is when will it get here since it already went out ground - so much for instant gratification.

I really appreciate the help provided by forum members and I will post updates as they occur.

I thought I'd go back for an update... I finally moved the 2160 out of the attic and into the clear. In order to do this I had to add another 100ft of coax to reach the inlet by the side of the house. I was a little worried about this addition since the signal would be splitted 3/8 ways (I settled for 3) about 20ft after that and each ran for another 40ft or so. I tried it on the deck railing and got everything in Seattle and Bremeton, what a relief! Moving it up under the eaves for a more permanent location lost me #18. I guess going through the tree trunks is better than needling the leaves. So, until they develop the place (next few years) it will stay on the deck railing. The S/N indicator now is a bit to a lot lower than when it was in the attic but is much more stable. Even on the most windy days in the past few weeks only KOMO dropped a few times. I guess it stood the weather test. The only problem now is that I have to de-spiderweb almost everyday.

Oh, I bought that coax with built-in ground wire and grounded the elements to the ground rod. Though only 17 gauge and 5 times the recommended length I guess it would be enough to discharge any unwanted static, and since it is much lower than everything else in the vicinity, lightning would have a hard time finding it, or at least the insurance company will not use it as an excuse.

Thank you Dan, Larry and others for your inputs.

-tq

Starting on September 5th, KTWB-22 will be carrying My Network TV.

Here is a link to the press release:

ktwbtv[dot]trb[dot]com[slash]news/ktwb-pressrelease-mynetworktv,0,804056.story?coll=ktwb-home-1

The Tube is a 24/7 Music Channel that airs classic and modern music videos. Their web site is thetubetv com

Starting on September 5th, KTWB-22 will be carrying My Network TV.

Here is a link to the press release:

ktwbtv[dot]trb[dot]com[slash]news/ktwb-pressrelease-mynetworktv,0,804056.story?coll=ktwb-home-1

Linked: http://ktwbtv.trb.com/news/ktwb-pressrelease-mynetworktv,0,804056.story?coll=ktwb-home-1

Starting on September 5th, KTWB-22 will be carrying My Network TV.

Here is a link to the press release:

ktwbtv[dot]trb[dot]com[slash]news/ktwb-pressrelease-mynetworktv,0,804056.story?coll=ktwb-home-1
All HD but all crap(?). I didn't see anything listed so far in their 12 hours/week that interests me. I hope they add some decent programming, not more soap operas.

Hi all,

The 4221 arrived yesterday. I played around with it a bit but did not have anyone around to "stand here, one foot up, finger in ear...". Tried the antenna pointed out an upstairs window, not quite in the right direction. Tried it inside in the right direction. Tried it out in the driveway right direction. The best results so far are outside at ground level. I "tested" the signal strength using my H10-250 setup. Here is what I got:

KIRO-DT 39 signal about 40%
KOMO-DT 38 signal about 40% but in and out
KTWB-DT 25 signal about 70%
KING-DT 48 signal about 20% but in and out
KONG-DT 31 signal about 55%

Also got several others at 80%+ like KWPX, KWDK, KHCV. Based on the direction provided by antenna web I am guessing the towers for these are on Tiger Mt. (I can look out the window and see Tiger Mt.).

Some of these were viewable but with pixelation beyond acceptable, but this was encouraging. Next is to wait until one of my family is available and willing to hold the antenna at some other places in other positions.

I was orginally hoping to put the antenna in the attic (which astetically is most pleasing and potentially highest mount point), but maybe outside is the only option. I was hoping to confirm this would give me the 4 desired channels (big 3 + WB) reliably before borrowing a tall enough ladder and figuring out a mounting option.

Another question at this point is - for each of the channels I see 2 channels in my channel guide, for example kirodt and kirodt2 (and I see this for every OTA channel listed). What is the difference between the 2 listings (keep in mind I don't have adequate reception yet to figure this out by looking at them)?

Any other comments/adivce at this point? I will be trying other locations, elevations, angles in the coming days.

Thanks,
Mike

Hi all,

The 4221 arrived yesterday. I played around with it a bit but did not have anyone around to "stand here, one foot up, finger in ear...". Tried the antenna pointed out an upstairs window, not quite in the right direction. Tried it inside in the right direction. Tried it out in the driveway right direction. The best results so far are outside at ground level. I "tested" the signal strength using my H10-250 setup. Here is what I got:

KIRO-DT 39 signal about 40%
KOMO-DT 38 signal about 40% but in and out
KTWB-DT 25 signal about 70%
KING-DT 48 signal about 20% but in and out
KONG-DT 31 signal about 55%

Also got several others at 80%+ like KWPX, KWDK, KHCV. Based on the direction provided by antenna web I am guessing the towers for these are on Tiger Mt. (I can look out the window and see Tiger Mt.).

Some of these were viewable but with pixelation beyond acceptable, but this was encouraging. Next is to wait until one of my family is available and willing to hold the antenna at some other places in other positions.

I was orginally hoping to put the antenna in the attic (which astetically is most pleasing and potentially highest mount point), but maybe outside is the only option. I was hoping to confirm this would give me the 4 desired channels (big 3 + WB) reliably before borrowing a tall enough ladder and figuring out a mounting option.

Another question at this point is - for each of the channels I see 2 channels in my channel guide, for example kirodt and kirodt2 (and I see this for every OTA channel listed). What is the difference between the 2 listings (keep in mind I don't have adequate reception yet to figure this out by looking at them)?

Any other comments/adivce at this point? I will be trying other locations, elevations, angles in the coming days.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike
Each channel has sub channels. Some stations use several, some only one. They all ride on one carrier, though, so if you get one, you get all. Ch9 has 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-5(HD subchannel). Ch's 4,5, & 7 use the -1 as the main HD one, and the other -2 as a standard def.
When you get a location to try, you must wait a few seconds for the tuner to lock in. If you keep turning the antenna rapidly to try and tweak it, the tuner won't give you the results fast enough. Move it, wait, measure all the channels, write down the readings, do it again. A pattern will emerge as to which ones are
touchy, and those that aren't fussy about direction. Once you realize which are the problem ch's, you can just check those until you find a good spot. Then check the rest. Patience is the key.
Dan

Thanks for the subchannel explanation. I had already seen that lock in took a little time. That was not a problem in my first test because I had to go move the antenna and then go back to the tv to check the results. The pattern idea will help us to be more efficient in testing.

I think it was you, Dan, that suggested waiting on the amplifier. I would really like to put this in the attic but so far my testing suggests I will have to find the perfect place outside for the antenna (presuming there is one). Would an amp give me more options?

Mike

Thanks for the subchannel explanation. I had already seen that lock in took a little time. That was not a problem in my first test because I had to go move the antenna and then go back to the tv to check the results. The pattern idea will help us to be more efficient in testing.

I think it was you, Dan, that suggested waiting on the amplifier. I would really like to put this in the attic but so far my testing suggests I will have to find the perfect place outside for the antenna (presuming there is one). Would an amp give me more options?

Mike

Mike
Not really. Your location should give pretty good results without it.
Once you get a few channels to lock, and nothing else seems to come in, then add an amp. Trying to aim with an amp can get tricky, because it does funny things with the way the tuner works. Once the signal is steady, and you amp it, then you might get some more stations. I would bet they all come in without the amp, except maybe KONG, it's pretty weak where you are.
Dan

Is something happening at KING? The past few weeks both the tonight show and late night have been having tons of HD switch issues. It happens on late night the most. Mostly the last quarter of the show with music guest/comdian. Just lazeeee switchers!?

I am newbie in HDTV and this forum. I just bought a HD-ready TV, and try to use OTA to get HD program. I know that I need a HD receiver, but I am not sure about the antenna. I live close to the intersection of NE 45th St. and NE 25th Ave, zip: 98105. Could somebody check for me what kind of antenna is sufficient to receive some local HD program? Thanks.

-Richard

I am newbie in HDTV and this forum. I just bought a HD-ready TV, and try to use OTA to get HD program. I know that I need a HD receiver, but I am not sure about the antenna. I live close to the intersection of NE 45th St. and NE 25th Ave, zip: 98105. Could somebody check for me what kind of antenna is sufficient to receive some local HD program? Thanks.

-Richard

Richard
You're in a tough spot.
If you're right on 25th, the hill, and all the buildings on campus, are in the way for ch's 4,5,7,13,16. Ch's 9,11,22 are okay. Never say never, but it's not good.
If your set is cable card ready, you could do basic cable and you wouldn't need to pay extra for the card or box. Just plug in their cable and you'll get the locals in HD. If it's not cable card ready, then you'll need their box.
Dan

Thanks, Dan. You are right the campus on the hill is a problem. I give it a try and if it is not ok, I will just go with cable.

Anyone here live close to US/Canada border, White Rock area. Will you be able to pick up Seattle DTV OTA signals? Thanks.

Anyone here live close to US/Canada border, White Rock area. Will you be able to pick up Seattle DTV OTA signals? Thanks.

If you are speaking of White Rock Mountain, east of Loomis, then no. WRM is 154 miles from QA hill in Seattle and has a few mountains in the way as well.

If you are speaking of White Rock near Port Ludlow then yes, you have a chance at OTA but you are on the "weak" side of the radiation patterns for most stations. So it is hard to say what you will get. Give it a try.

There are 2 other "White Rocks" in/near WA, one in the Pacific Ocean, one in the San Juan channel - doubt those are you because they literally are "rocks".

You'd think they could have some kind of sign up sheet for names...

Dan and others,

Spent much of yesterday trying to get signals in the attic and out the windows (all 50% or less). Finally put my 4221 at the end of some PVC and held it up in the air near the back of the house. Results were encouraging so today I rented an extension ladder and my brother and I spent a couple of hours mounting the antenna up on the chimney near the Directv dish. A little scary, steep roof. But...success!

I have the big 3 plus WB all at over 80% (based on the Directv signal strength meter), great picture, no amp (I was convinced you were wrong Dan, I humbly appologize for doubting you).

I woulnot have gone to this trouble without the encouragement from Dan and quarque. Thanks so much for all your help!

Now the question will be what will Directv do with MPEG-2 moving forward.
Mike

Dan and others,

Spent much of yesterday trying to get signals in the attic and out the windows (all 50% or less). Finally put my 4221 at the end of some PVC and held it up in the air near the back of the house. Results were encouraging so today I rented an extension ladder and my brother and I spent a couple of hours mounting the antenna up on the chimney near the Directv dish. A little scary, steep roof. But...success!

I have the big 3 plus WB all at over 80% (based on the Directv signal strength meter), great picture, no amp (I was convinced you were wrong Dan, I humbly appologize for doubting you).

I woulnot have gone to this trouble without the encouragement from Dan and quarque. Thanks so much for all your help!

Now the question will be what will Directv do with MPEG-2 moving forward.
Mike

Mike
Well done. Helping others is what makes the forum fun.
My opinion, FWIW, is they can't move too fast on turning off MPEG-2. There's just way too many receivers out there, and that's what brings in the bucks. They will most likely run both for quite sometime until there's a work around.
Dan

What's up with the Hockey feed on KONG? It's not in HD and I was just chatting with someone in another market and their NBC affliate is showing it in HD.

Ok, I'm going to throw a little vent out here.

I have to say that out of all the Seattle stations broadcasting in HD the one that is dropping the ball the most is KING 5. While some may say it's KOMO with their audio/video issues, I'd say that may have been the case a year ago, but that seems to be fixed now and in fact I had a mostly problem free TV season with them.

Anyways, here is a list of issues I've seen with KING, some long standing, ongoing issues, others new or infrequent.

1. Inability to show Saturday Night Live in HD for most of the 2005 - 2006 TV season
2. Issues keeping the HD feed going during Late Night TV (Leno & Conan), tends to switch between SD and HD, especially Conan during the last segment
3. Horrible style of doing Local News, ie. switching between HD 16x9 and SD 4x3 all the time. I wont' even bother with their news cast because of this
4. Digital/HD feed going off the air for days back in March.
5. A number of shows I watched during the 2005 - 2006 had issues with staying in HD, Law & Order was one that I remember switching to SD for 10 - 15 minutes of an episode. This wasn't regular but happened once every month or 2.
6. And now the kicker for me, The fact that they have regulated the NHL Stanley Cup finals to their sister station KONG AND are not broadcasting it in HD even though there is an HD feed that everyone else I talk to in other markets is seeings. This is BS, put the games back on OLN-HD if you can't even take advantage of the technology.

KING 5 definetly the loser in HD in the Northwest!!!!!

Ok, I'm going to throw a little vent out here.

I have to say that out of all the Seattle stations broadcasting in HD the one that is dropping the ball the most is KING 5. While some may say it's KOMO with their audio/video issues, I'd say that may have been the case a year ago, but that seems to be fixed now and in fact I had a mostly problem free TV season with them.

Anyways, here is a list of issues I've seen with KING, some long standing, ongoing issues, others new or infrequent.

1. Inability to show Saturday Night Live in HD for most of the 2005 - 2006 TV season
2. Issues keeping the HD feed going during Late Night TV (Leno & Conan), tends to switch between SD and HD, especially Conan during the last segment
3. Horrible style of doing Local News, ie. switching between HD 16x9 and SD 4x3 all the time. I wont' even bother with their news cast because of this
4. Digital/HD feed going off the air for days back in March.
5. A number of shows I watched during the 2005 - 2006 had issues with staying in HD, Law & Order was one that I remember switching to SD for 10 - 15 minutes of an episode. This wasn't regular but happened once every month or 2.
6. And now the kicker for me, The fact that they have regulated the NHL Stanley Cup finals to their sister station KONG AND are not broadcasting it in HD even though there is an HD feed that everyone else I talk to in other markets is seeings. This is BS, put the games back on OLN-HD if you can't even take advantage of the technology.

KING 5 definetly the loser in HD in the Northwest!!!!!


Agreed. I feel sorry for KING and KONG, Belo is not giving them a good reputation around here. This NHL fiasco is just the icing on the cake.


SHAME ON BELO CORPORATION

Ok, I'm going to throw a little vent out here.

I have to say that out of all the Seattle stations broadcasting in HD the one that is dropping the ball the most is KING 5. While some may say it's KOMO with their audio/video issues, I'd say that may have been the case a year ago, but that seems to be fixed now and in fact I had a mostly problem free TV season with them.

Anyways, here is a list of issues I've seen with KING, some long standing, ongoing issues, others new or infrequent.

1. Inability to show Saturday Night Live in HD for most of the 2005 - 2006 TV season
2. Issues keeping the HD feed going during Late Night TV (Leno & Conan), tends to switch between SD and HD, especially Conan during the last segment
3. Horrible style of doing Local News, ie. switching between HD 16x9 and SD 4x3 all the time. I wont' even bother with their news cast because of this
4. Digital/HD feed going off the air for days back in March.
5. A number of shows I watched during the 2005 - 2006 had issues with staying in HD, Law & Order was one that I remember switching to SD for 10 - 15 minutes of an episode. This wasn't regular but happened once every month or 2.
6. And now the kicker for me, The fact that they have regulated the NHL Stanley Cup finals to their sister station KONG AND are not broadcasting it in HD even though there is an HD feed that everyone else I talk to in other markets is seeings. This is BS, put the games back on OLN-HD if you can't even take advantage of the technology.

KING 5 definetly the loser in HD in the Northwest!!!!!
7. No HD for French Open finals.

7. No HD for French Open finals.

Does anyone know if they are in HD in other markets on NBC? Or is this an NBC thing?

Does anyone know if they are in HD in other markets on NBC? Or is this an NBC thing?
I believe it is an NBC thing and words are that the same will go with Wimbledon. Was it CBS last year? I think they should not give anyone broadcast right unless it is in HD. If not losing viewership you are sure not gaining any. Shouldn't the people who pay for commercials demand that?

So I just got the word from KING 5. I spoke with a lady in programming and KING 5/Belo decided to air the NHL games on KONG instead of KING because apparently the viewership for the NHL is too low to make it worth their while to preempt the normal programming on KING 5 during the games, i.e. local and national news. Apparently they can get more advertising $$$ from their normal programing than they can with the NHL championship games.

The reason it's not in HD on KONG is they dont' have the necessary equipment to broadcast any live feeds in HD on KONG, only pre-recorded content.

That being said I suggest anyone that thinks this is wrong please call KING 5 at 206-448-5555. When I called I asked for programming and only had to sit on hold for a minute.

I am also going to try and find contact information for NBC and the NHL. Frankly I think this is BS. None of the shows on KING during this time except for Evening Magazine are even really in HD, you can't call the local news HD because it spends more time in SD mode than HD mode. They should just swap the content, put the NHL games on KING5 and the KING5 content on KONG. We're taking a max of 5 evenings since the first 2 games were on OLN, which showed it in HD, at least on DISH Network.

So I just got the word from KING 5. I spoke with a lady in programming and KING 5/Belo decided to air the NHL games on KONG instead of KING because apparently the viewership for the NHL is too low to make it worth their while to preempt the normal programming on KING 5 during the games, i.e. local and national news. Apparently they can get more advertising $$$ from their normal programing than they can with the NHL championship games.

The reason it's not in HD on KONG is they dont' have the necessary equipment to broadcast any live feeds in HD on KONG, only pre-recorded content.

That being said I suggest anyone that thinks this is wrong please call KING 5 at 206-448-5555. When I called I asked for programming and only had to sit on hold for a minute.

I am also going to try and find contact information for NBC and the NHL. Frankly I think this is BS. None of the shows on KING during this time except for Evening Magazine are even really in HD, you can't call the local news HD because it spends more time in SD mode than HD mode. They should just swap the content, put the NHL games on KING5 and the KING5 content on KONG. We're taking a max of 5 evenings since the first 2 games were on OLN, which showed it in HD, at least on DISH Network.

Yep, it always comes down to $. Belo is cheap, plain and simple. The least they could do is show the NHL games on the DT station and leave the analog alone. Nobody watches the DT station anyway right? :p

Rob, good detective work, that is also the number I called, but I had no choice but to leave a message. Maybe I will call again, even though it will do nothing.

To make noise on this, we must contact the higher ups at NBC Sports. I have a feeling they wouldn't be too thrilled to see what Belo is doing. They spend the money on HD production and the affiliate throws is all down the tubes for a few extra ad. dollars.

Shame on Belo

that is also the number I called, but I had no choice but to leave a message. Maybe I will call again, even though it will do nothing.

I called last night and left a message, but tried again today during business hours and got a receptionist that transferred me to programming. Try again during business hours. I think the message last night mentioned 8 - 5.

To make noise on this, we must contact the higher ups at NBC Sports. I have a feeling they wouldn't be too thrilled to see what Belo is doing. They spend the money on HD production and the affiliate throws is all down the tubes for a few extra ad. dollars.

I have sent e-mail to sports@msnbc.com and to the Vancouver Canucks, info@canucks.com, asking them to forward on to the NHL. I can't find contact information for the NHL directly.

I am also going to try and write down the advertisers, especially any local advertising , during the game tomorrow and contact them and let them know what KING 5/Belo is doing with their money.

I suggest anyone else that is upset with KING 5 do what they can to voice your concrerns.

But the guys that pay money for advertising during the news would ask for a reimbursement! Seriously, they could just run a little text saying local programming is on 16, or 5-2 for that matter!

What about the national advertisers that are paying NBC to advertise during the NHL game expecting it to be on all NBC affiliates, not on some little side channel our local affiliate has decided to run? If I were them I'd really be ticked.

I couldn't believe that the French Open was not in HD. And now you think the same for Wimbledon? What is going on? NBC did a fantastic job (imho) with the Olympics. They need to put those HD Cams to good use (or better use than Arena Football).

Also... where is HD Golf?

7. No HD for French Open finals.

8. Running that stupid -2 sub channel with 24 hour weather, taking away valuable bandwidth from their HD programming. At a minimum they should shut that channel down when HD programming is on.

I've talked to someone else that lives in a market where their NBC affiliate does not run a sub channel and they don't get the pixeliation we get during fast motion scenes. (Typically shows up during sporting events or live music i.e. on Leno/Conan, where lots of lights are flashing and moving).

geeze KING! too many HD switch issues! notice my pvr recording of office reruns begining of the week is unswitched!! also like clockwork conan's last segment unswitched again! Been going on for weeks and weeks!! I'm more surprised when the bands and stand up acts are in HD!:(

inHD2 on 665 is gone. Channel up goes from 664 to QVC, and entering 665 manually gives me "???". Is this going to be Universal HD soon, or did they just drop it? Does anyone know about this?

inHD2 on 665 is gone. Channel up goes from 664 to QVC, and entering 665 manually gives me "???". Is this going to be Universal HD soon, or did they just drop it? Does anyone know about this?

I think you want the Comcast thread...this is the over the air thread. But i do sure wish I could get INHD2 over the air :D

On Comcast in the Seattle area, 665 was just replaced with 174 - ESPN2-HD, where World Cup Soccer is being shown.

Hey Larry,
thanks for all you topical info. I'm in shoreline off of 175th st & Ashworth. My ABC signall drops from 80 to 30 in a matter of seconds. really sucks during the NBA finals. I'm using a DB4 bowtie - external mast mounted 25' off ground. There is a stand of 80' firs off to the east of my property. any ideas
thanks

Hi all,

First off, I'm an extreme novice when it comes to these things. Here's the situation:

Just got a Humax HFA-100 and a Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna. The Humax seems to be working fine, but can only pick up 6 channels:

9-1 KCTS-DT
9-3 "Create" (seems to be another KCTS channel on cooking or something)
9-5 KCTS-HD
11-1 KSTW-DT
22-1 KTWB-DT
22-2 KTWB-D2

And a lot of these signals seem to be rather flaky besides. What gives? According to antennaweb, a small multi-directional antenna should be good enough for me to also get the ABC (KOMO-DT) and NBC (KING-DT) stations as well, right? and the KONG-DT one too, whatever that is.

To give some more specific details, I live right across from Seattle U, a little east and below the top of First Hill (12th & Columbia), on the second floor of a four-floor apt building. Is there no good way for me to get a better signal (or even *a* signal) in my current location? Would a better antenna do the trick? As far as positioning, right now it works better when sitting next to my TV than on top. My windows face north, which is the direction I have it pointing., though it looks like ABC and NBC are located 2 miles or so to the SW according to antennaweb.

Any help would be appreciated, I'm on the verge of just giving up and returning everything. I'd go with cable but I'm in a building with an exclusive Millenium Digital contract, which is mindblowingly expensive and also crappy to boot.

Hey Larry,
thanks for all you topical info. I'm in shoreline off of 175th st & Ashworth. My ABC signall drops from 80 to 30 in a matter of seconds. really sucks during the NBA finals. I'm using a DB4 bowtie - external mast mounted 25' off ground. There is a stand of 80' firs off to the east of my property. any ideas
thanks

If your other stations are fairly steady then my guess would be a strong reflection is bothering ch 4. These are often tricky to defeat. The standard things to try are: 1) attenuator (rat Shack 15-678), 2) moving your antenna up/down/left/right, or 3) try a more directional antenna. Rat Shack 15-2160 is cheap and easy to return if the first two options yield nothing. The firs should not be a problem since the major stations are south and 13 is SW.

Hi all,

First off, I'm an extreme novice when it comes to these things. Here's the situation:

Just got a Humax HFA-100 and a Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna. The Humax seems to be working fine, but can only pick up 6 channels:

9-1 KCTS-DT
9-3 "Create" (seems to be another KCTS channel on cooking or something)
9-5 KCTS-HD
11-1 KSTW-DT
22-1 KTWB-DT
22-2 KTWB-D2

And a lot of these signals seem to be rather flaky besides. What gives? According to antennaweb, a small multi-directional antenna should be good enough for me to also get the ABC (KOMO-DT) and NBC (KING-DT) stations as well, right? and the KONG-DT one too, whatever that is.

To give some more specific details, I live right across from Seattle U, a little east and below the top of First Hill (12th & Columbia), on the second floor of a four-floor apt building. Is there no good way for me to get a better signal (or even *a* signal) in my current location? Would a better antenna do the trick? As far as positioning, right now it works better when sitting next to my TV than on top. My windows face north, which is the direction I have it pointing., though it looks like ABC and NBC are located 2 miles or so to the SW according to antennaweb.

Any help would be appreciated, I'm on the verge of just giving up and returning everything. I'd go with cable but I'm in a building with an exclusive Millenium Digital contract, which is mindblowingly expensive and also crappy to boot.

QA hill is actually NW of you so re-aiming might help. Your biggest problem is being downtown and on the second floor. There are tons of reflected signals from all the buildings and you are fairly low in elevation. You might try different antennas but it is going to be a real crap shoot no matter what. Try the Rat Shack 15-1880 and return it if it doesn't help. Good luck.

QA hill is actually NW of you so re-aiming might help. Your biggest problem is being downtown and on the second floor. There are tons of reflected signals from all the buildings and you are fairly low in elevation. You might try different antennas but it is going to be a real crap shoot no matter what. Try the Rat Shack 15-1880 and return it if it doesn't help. Good luck.

After a lot of messing around, I was able to get the ABC and NBC channels with it cutting out every 5 seconds or so. I looked on the Radio Shack website, all I see that they offer (and I will go down to a local store, of course) is the "15-1878 Amplified VHF/UHF/FM Indoor Antenna". Will that work? Would that combined with a seperate preamp help? Thanks for your help.

poove
I don't know what antenna comes with that card.
However, I did do a job only a few blocks south of you, and signal was fairly good, but it was sensitive to location, trying to find the right spot for all channels to come in. It doesn't look like the trees in the distance are that much of a factor, but they are. I used a small yagi, like the Rat Shack 15-2160, mounted about 10ft above ground, and a 7775 preamp. An indoor antenna would have poor reception and be very sensitive about which direction and location for each channel, if you could even get them.
Dan

I'm in the same location. Are there any in-attic antennas that would work well. I don't want to put up an eyesore outside.

BoB

A damn shame Game 7 of the Stanley Cup will not be HD locally. I'd rather have them tape delay it and show it in HD (on KONG if necessary) than have a non-HD live broadcast.
I wonder who (at Belo) made the decision to push hockey to KONG. I also wonder if the folks at the NHL, NBC Sports, and NHL advertisers know that this person made that decision.
KING really should at least show the deciding Game 7.
Tom

A damn shame Game 7 of the Stanley Cup will not be HD locally. I'd rather have them tape delay it and show it in HD (on KONG if necessary) than have a non-HD live broadcast.
I wonder who (at Belo) made the decision to push hockey to KONG. I also wonder if the folks at the NHL, NBC Sports, and NHL advertisers know that this person made that decision.
KING really should at least show the deciding Game 7.
Tom

Send your comments to kingtv@king5.com also let NBC Sports know what's up:

sports@msnbc.com

After a lot of messing around, I was able to get the ABC and NBC channels with it cutting out every 5 seconds or so. I looked on the Radio Shack website, all I see that they offer (and I will go down to a local store, of course) is the "15-1878 Amplified VHF/UHF/FM Indoor Antenna". Will that work? Would that combined with a seperate preamp help? Thanks for your help.
Actually, you will want an attenuator (RS 15-678) not a preamp. You are so close to the towers that you are possibly overloading your tuner as it is. The 15-1878 is just a glorified loop with an amp (which you don't need) - not worth the money. The -1880 has a bowtie element and a back screen - much better than a loop. The other popular antenna for indoors is the Zenith Silver Sensor which used to be sold at Sears and other department stores.

edit: it appears the 15-1880 may no longer be in production (may be some left in stock)

A damn shame Game 7 of the Stanley Cup will not be HD locally. I'd rather have them tape delay it and show it in HD (on KONG if necessary) than have a non-HD live broadcast.
I wonder who (at Belo) made the decision to push hockey to KONG. I also wonder if the folks at the NHL, NBC Sports, and NHL advertisers know that this person made that decision.
KING really should at least show the deciding Game 7.
Tom
Agreed! But I guess DTV/HD is not the norm currently. On the other hand, they said they would air Sunday night NFL! That's a bit of a relief now that MNF goes to ESPN for OTAers. BTW, I thought both National Anthems were sung about two keys too low, may be it was just me!

Of course they would air Sunday Night NFL in HD because that will be on KING. They would never choose to run local news instead of the NFL. Hockey fans just got screwed because it doesn't get good enough ratings, so they stuck it on their secondary channel.

It's unfortunate that KONG exists to give them that option. If they didn't have KONG they probably would've been forced to run the game on KING and then it would've been in HD.

I'm in the same location. Are there any in-attic antennas that would work well. I don't want to put up an eyesore outside.

BoB

BoB
No antenna is made for the attic. Some work there, but they really need to be outside to work their best. Some UHF antennas are quite small.and don't have to be mounted above the roof. You can get creative as long as they can see the towers. I have one hanging under a deck that's only 3ft above the ground, 15 miles out, works great, can't be seen from anywhere unless you crawl under it.

I don't remember where this was. Refresh my pea brain. What's the cross streets where you are? I can then give you a better idea of what's needed.
Dan

Actually, you will want an attenuator (RS 15-678) not a preamp. You are so close to the towers that you are possibly overloading your tuner as it is. The 15-1878 is just a glorified loop with an amp (which you don't need) - not worth the money. The -1880 has a bowtie element and a back screen - much better than a loop. The other popular antenna for indoors is the Zenith Silver Sensor which used to be sold at Sears and other department stores.

edit: it appears the 15-1880 may no longer be in production (may be some left in stock)

Shoot, I may be out of luck then. The two antennas I've tried so far are the "Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna" which I'm pretty sure is the Zenith Silver Sensor (it says that on the box), and then an old Radio Shack one, which is a circle + rabbit ears that looks a bit like the 15-1878 (it even has one of those little "gain dials") and is able to pick up NBC and ABC on rare occasions (The Zenith never can). I guess I can still try the attenuator, and see if the 15-1880 is in my local radio shack. There isn't a way to "combine" the signal of both of my antennas is there? I'm grasping at straws here... :confused:

This is a status report for Somerset Wood which is east to the Somerset Elementary. The area is known for HDTV reception problem due to the fact that I am on the shadow side of the hill (I have talked to DanKurt and KCTS people).

After getting my CM-3018 pointing to the west and parallel to I-90, I can get solid reception for 11.1 and 22.1 and 22.2 but not KCTS-DT. However, according to KCTS people, 9, 11, 22 are all transmitting from the same tower on the Captol Hill.

KOMO-DT, KIRO-DT also got frequent drops as KCTS-DT. However, I have almost no signals for KING-DT.

Suggestions are welcomed.

My understanding is that 9, 11 and 22 all transmit from the same SITE on Capitol Hill, but not the same tower. There are three towers up there, and also KUOW-FM, I believe, transmits from that site. I do not know who is on each tower. My guess would be that KCTS and KUOW might be on the same tower, and 11 and 22 would be on the other two towers.

Point is, even with the small distances between the towers, your reception could be affected differently for each. With a little luck, small adjustments in the location (not just the rotation) of your antenna could make enough difference to pull in the other station.

Hm, I'm still fairly a newb to getting OTA signals, but from all the reading it looks like I might be entirely SOL due to my location and surroundings, but I guess I wanted to get the final nail in the coffin here.

I'm at 24th Ave and E Howell Street on the east side of Capitol Hill, on the downslope and across the alley I have a set of 3 story buildings and across 23rd ave I have a set of 5 story buildings affording me nowhere close to line of sight to Queen Anne. I'm in a single-story house.

I went on antennaweb and it said yellow - small, multi-directional.

So... yes/no on OTA here? Suggestions?


(For now I just really care about getting the ABC/KOMO feed for the World Cup)

Hm, I'm still fairly a newb to getting OTA signals, but from all the reading it looks like I might be entirely SOL due to my location and surroundings, but I guess I wanted to get the final nail in the coffin here.

I'm at 24th Ave and E Howell Street on the east side of Capitol Hill, on the downslope and across the alley I have a set of 3 story buildings and across 23rd ave I have a set of 5 story buildings affording me nowhere close to line of sight to Queen Anne. I'm in a single-story house.

I went on antennaweb and it said yellow - small, multi-directional.

So... yes/no on OTA here? Suggestions?


(For now I just really care about getting the ABC/KOMO feed for the World Cup)

arne360
It's very tricky around there under the best conditions. The ch9-11-22 towers really load up your tuner. Even though you can still tune in other channels, the levels get knocked way down, because the tuners built in preamp (rfagc) dials everything back. I have done a few near you, but they had a better look NW.
Sorry, it sounds like you're in a bad spot.
You could always try a RatShack small yagi, 15-2160, for grins, and can take it back if it doesn't work out.
Dan

Is it appropriate to suggest a (specific) professional installer to help out? I had an OTA antenna added to my house professionally for relatively cheap. I get all local OTA HD channels with no problems (well, no problems with reception - of course sometimes the stations screw up). In any case, if it's appropriate, I'm happy to make recommendations. You might save yourself some frustration and also discover that there are options.
FWIW I'm in Fremont.
-F

I wish KOMO showed tomorrow early morning match. On the other hand, Comcast, Dish & DirectTV probably say "You cheap ....!"

Does any one know what KTWB-DT puts on the SD 22.2? Someone says this is a FOX channel on HDTVpub<dot>com, but I can't find any info on this sub channel on KTWB web site and Titan TV.

Does any one know what KTWB-DT puts on the SD 22.2? Someone says this is a FOX channel on HDTVpub<dot>com, but I can't find any info on this sub channel on KTWB web site and Titan TV. A couple of years ago, Fox was indeed on 22.2, which was really nice because I have a perfect view of Capitol Hill and could get channel 13 this way. However, they dumped this sharing arrangement and it probably won't happen again. This is too bad, as I will probably need to get a comcast box to watch the Seahawks in HD this fall. Queen Anne Hill blocks me from channel 13s tower, which in Bremerton I think.

KCPQ was broadcasting 13 (Fox) digital on 18-1 and KTWB (WB) on 18-2, all from their Gold Mountain tower near Bremerton.

KTWB was broadcasting 22 (WB) digital on 25-1 (25 IIRC?) and KCPQ (Fox) on 25-2, all from their Capitol Hill tower.

As Mike said, this was good for folks who could only receive from one site or the other. But apparently the networks or the FCC or someone "official" made them stop.

Some of the guide info floating around still shows these subchannels erroneously.

At least Tribune Broadcasting, who owns both stations, had good intentions.

It's very tricky around there under the best conditions. The ch9-11-22 towers really load up your tuner. Even though you can still tune in other channels, the levels get knocked way down, because the tuners built in preamp (rfagc) dials everything back. I have done a few near you, but they had a better look NW.
Sorry, it sounds like you're in a bad spot.
You could always try a RatShack small yagi, 15-2160, for grins, and can take it back if it doesn't work out.
Dan

np, I'll try that one and see what happens. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks for the tip!

Is it appropriate to suggest a (specific) professional installer to help out? I had an OTA antenna added to my house professionally for relatively cheap. I get all local OTA HD channels with no problems (well, no problems with reception - of course sometimes the stations screw up). In any case, if it's appropriate, I'm happy to make recommendations. You might save yourself some frustration and also discover that there are options.
FWIW I'm in Fremont.
-F

I'm sure you could just PM me a few recs? I'm open to it, I need to find a solution before the WC final at least. ;)

I wish KOMO showed tomorrow early morning match. On the other hand, Comcast, Dish & DirectTV probably say "You cheap ....!"

Well, if DirecTV offered local channels in HD I wouldn't have this problem! I could Comcast it but then I don't need another HDTV receiver/HD DVR or not be able to record the early morning matches to my existing equip. At least with OTA I can just plug it in to the HR10-250.

sigh. we'll let's see what happens. thanks all.

Does any one know what KTWB-DT puts on the SD 22.2? Someone says this is a FOX channel on HDTVpub<dot>com, but I can't find any info on this sub channel on KTWB web site and Titan TV.


Right now it's "The Tube" on 22-2.

Looks like music videos right now. When did this come online?

FYI, 22-2 is @720x480i, whereas all the other subs in our market are 704x480i. Some fairly useless info for everyone there.

Also, 22-1 (1080i) is coming in at a wonderfully low 13mb/s now. :(

Also, it would really be swell if KING would put up their guide info, KONG comes in just fine, as do the other channels except KCTS.

Live in Bellevue on Somerset on the hill facing Seattle. Some trees in neighborhood but essentially line-of-sight to Seattle.

I am experimenting with a Terk TV5 indoor antenna. I cannot regularly pick up 5-1, 5-1 (is that KONG?), the 3 Channel 9 stations, or 16-1, 16-2. My signal for KOMO-4 comes in so herky-jerky that it is not worth watching. 7-1 is somewhat herky-jerky, but it is better than 4-1.

Is there a better indoor antenna worth trying?

Live in Bellevue on Somerset on the hill facing Seattle. Some trees in neighborhood but essentially line-of-sight to Seattle.

I am experimenting with a Terk TV5 indoor antenna. I cannot regularly pick up 5-1, 5-1 (is that KONG?), the 3 Channel 9 stations, or 16-1, 16-2. My signal for KOMO-4 comes in so herky-jerky that it is not worth watching. 7-1 is somewhat herky-jerky, but it is better than 4-1.

Is there a better indoor antenna worth trying?
Try the Zenith Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1). It can be found sometimes at Sears and other department stores or online for around $25. The Terk TV5 is not very directional and the Zenith is. This will help ward off the reflected signals that may be causing your problem.

Live in Bellevue on Somerset on the hill facing Seattle. Some trees in neighborhood but essentially line-of-sight to Seattle.

I am experimenting with a Terk TV5 indoor antenna. I cannot regularly pick up 5-1, 5-1 (is that KONG?), the 3 Channel 9 stations, or 16-1, 16-2. My signal for KOMO-4 comes in so herky-jerky that it is not worth watching. 7-1 is somewhat herky-jerky, but it is better than 4-1.

Is there a better indoor antenna worth trying?

saukriver
The big problem there is hot signal. It's almost as bad as Ballard, Magnolia, Fremont, etc. Indoor types are sensitive to all the reflected signals. A small Rat Shack 15-2160, mounted outside, can make a big difference. It doesn't need to be on the roof, can be mounted on the side of the house facing west. Be sure to pick a 20db adjustable attenuator, too, to drop the signal down a little. Too much can make it act like not enough.
KONG is 16-1.
Dan

Can anyone beat 88F in their home/apartment? :p

I can't even turn on my 42" display for fear of killing the thing.

HTPC is going strong though!

Can anyone beat 88F in their home/apartment? :p

I can't even turn on my 42" display for fear of killing the thing.

HTPC is going strong though!

Can't beat that 88F (76F here) but at least my panny RPTV is doing fine as I watch the Everett Hawks on af2 (FSN ch 30). Oh, did I mention the room A/C is going full blast? I still think A/C was mankind's greatest invention ever (I can't take anything above 77F!).

Did anybody lose their KOMO 4-1 signal tonight? I always get >90 but during tonight's news the picture started getting choppy and around 11:20 lost signal completely. All other HD channels are fine. Surely this is weather related. Can someone at KOMO please crack a window :D

Did anybody lose their KOMO 4-1 signal tonight? I always get >90 but during tonight's news the picture started getting choppy and around 11:20 lost signal completely. All other HD channels are fine. Surely this is weather related. Can someone at KOMO please crack a window :D

Yes I noticed that 4-1 was dark around 11:30 pm last night. All my other OTA HD was working fine.

In the broadcast/electronics business we call it "infant mortality".. Our main DTV transmitter with a brand new $35,000 tube had a tube failure last night, (yep the new one). Then when we switched the backup transmitter on line, a cooling fan failed to start, causing the backup not to come on line either. Another tube is on it's way from England, and we have replaced the fan.

All is well, return to your homes now ;>)

Thanks for the update Kelly. As for infant mortality I know what you mean. I buy and deploy a lot of large computer and storage systems for a living and we always get those things into the datacenter and try and heat them up for at least a month before actually running any production traffic on them. It's amazing how many parts can fail right away.

In the broadcast/electronics business we call it "infant mortality".. Our main DTV transmitter with a brand new $35,000 tube had a tube failure last night, (yep the new one). Then when we switched the backup transmitter on line, a cooling fan failed to start, causing the backup not to come on line either. Another tube is on it's way from England, and we have replaced the fan.

All is well, return to your homes now ;>)
Kelly,

As always, thanks for keeping us informed.

In this real world of ours, STUFF happens, sometimes in pairs.

In the broadcast/electronics business we call it "infant mortality"..

Wow what a pleasant surprise! Thanks for letting us know Kelly! I for one appreciate it.

Maybe the other stations will follow your lead and participate here...

-F

I live on Capitol Hill, with many buildings surrounding me in a basement floor apartment.

I own a DB4 UHF antenna from Antennasdirect and while it has a nice 13.7db gain and 55 mile range on it, I cant seem to pick up KONG-DT. I thought it was being broadcast from the same tower as KING (which I dont have a problem picking up at all).

Is there a device I can buy that can boost the signal? Or should I buy something better? Perhaps a non-directional antenna? As it stands right now, the DB4 is decent enough to be an indoor antenna, in order to install an antenna on the roof of my apartment, the landlord requires a 200$ deposit.

I live on Capitol Hill, with many buildings surrounding me in a basement floor apartment.

I own a DB4 UHF antenna from Antennasdirect and while it has a nice 13.7db gain and 55 mile range on it, I cant seem to pick up KONG-DT. I thought it was being broadcast from the same tower as KING (which I dont have a problem picking up at all).

Is there a device I can buy that can boost the signal? Or should I buy something better? Perhaps a non-directional antenna? As it stands right now, the DB4 is decent enough to be an indoor antenna, in order to install an antenna on the roof of my apartment, the landlord requires a 200$ deposit.

KONG is on a different frequency than KING and the propagation will be a bit different. I doubt that signal strength is the problem, but there may be some phase distortion or multipath issues. Have you tried moving the antenna to a different location inside your apartment?

I have problems receiving KOMO although Queen Anne Hill is line-of-sight from my home on Bainbridge Island (give or take a tree or two). The other stations on Queen Anne or Capital Hill all come in fine. I just bought a Winegard PR-4400 which I will try in place of my current Radio Shack VHF-UHF antenna.

elister,

Actually, KONG-DT is on channel 31 and KING-DT is on channel 48, so KONG-DT is a lower UHF frequency than KING-DT.

Still, moving your antenna to different places (not just changing rotation in place) can make a big difference at UHF frequencies.

Yesterday, I got my newly purchased Pioneer PRO-1130HD connected to an external antenna (in Kirkland). During the time slot I was doing comparisons, the only HD programming was on KCTS, which looked great, as expected. I did some comparisons between the OTA analog and SD digital (I presume that's what "DT" in the station info box means?) It was no surprise that the digital channels looked much better than the OTA analog. I then compared the OTA DT channels to the SD stuff from my standard Direct TV/TIVO box. I was pleasantly surprised to see a significant improvement over the satellite display, as well. I didn't expect that, since the Direct TV is also in a digital format.

Due to the On-Demand feature and some other considerations, I'm switching over to Comcast HD/DVR on Juy 5th. Is it reasonable to presume that the SD stuff I get from the Comcast box will look at least as good as the DT OTA signals?

I'm still learning here....

Thanks, Vic

Well I live in a studio apartment, so im limited to where I can move the antenna to. I have tried three areas of the apartment, only one spot (the NW corner of the building) seem to get the best signal, which is 65-70% signal strength, which is not good enough to watch, yet alone record.

Does KONG ever broadcast local sports? Ive been reading up here and it seemed that they were offering NHL games in SD. Will they offer extended Summer Olympic coverage?

Is it reasonable to presume that the SD stuff I get from the Comcast box will look at least as good as the DT OTA signals?



SD content from DirectTV or DISH Network is not going to look as good as Analog OTA and definetly not Digitial OTA. The reason is the MPEG2 encoding and compression. Because of this you will have picture quality loss. It's not as noticable on an old SDTV, but on an HDTV it really shows through, especially the bigger the TV.

As far as Comcast, since they are now broadcasting everything digital (i.e. they are now converting their reception of the OTA Analog channels to digital with MPEG encoding) you will see a difference on the SD channels. If you still can get the analog stations via Comcast I would expect them to look the same as OTA. The true Digital/HD local stations should look the same as OTA, I don't believe they are re-encoding them, like DISH Network does (DISH is broadcasting Seattle Digital/HD locals now, but they encode them with MPEG4 and you lose some quality, it's relatively new so hopefully it's still a work in progress).

Yesterday, I got my newly purchased Pioneer PRO-1130HD connected to an external antenna (in Kirkland). During the time slot I was doing comparisons, the only HD programming was on KCTS, which looked great, as expected. I did some comparisons between the OTA analog and SD digital (I presume that's what "DT" in the station info box means?) It was no surprise that the digital channels looked much better than the OTA analog. I then compared the OTA DT channels to the SD stuff from my standard Direct TV/TIVO box. I was pleasantly surprised to see a significant improvement over the satellite display, as well. I didn't expect that, since the Direct TV is also in a digital format.

Due to the On-Demand feature and some other considerations, I'm switching over to Comcast HD/DVR on Juy 5th. Is it reasonable to presume that the SD stuff I get from the Comcast box will look at least as good as the DT OTA signals?

I'm still learning here....

Thanks, Vic

Vic
There's a lot of things that, in theory should be better than others, but aren't.
However, you're in luck.
Bear with me while I explain.
First, Comcast analog SD channels (4,5,7 etc) are not really "digital". They can be tuned in on a digital cable box, but they're still analog. They have all the noise and junk from miles of cable and noisy in line amps and other problems. The fact they look as good as they are is really pretty amazing. Still, it's generally noiser (grainy) than what you saw on ch 9-1 over air, which looks very clean (analog SD signal coming to you via HD carrier, but NOT a HD picture).
Ch 9 on satellite is compressed and looks softer.
The same local ch9-1 SD content on the cable box (ch109) SHOULD look as good as the over air, but doesn't, because the video output section of the cable box adds some noise.
Now for the good part.
I just got my folks the same PRO 1130, and hooked it up to their cable box. I then split the signal to also feed the cable signal directly into the Pioneer's tuner, which is QAM ready and does NOT have the cable card. I let it decode the local HD from the cable. Wow! They now get regular ch9 analog, and the same ch9-1 SD content, which comes up as ch 82-1. This is NOT the ch9 true HD channel, which over air is 9-5 and on cable box is 108.
The difference is very noticeable. Even if you do get the cable DVR, which has the same video output section, noise and all, split the cable and connect it to Pioneer tuner. You will be glad you did! The Pioneer tuner does a much better job.
And when comparing cable box HD ch9-5 (ch108) to the Pioneer's tuner on the same ch9-5 (ch82-5), there's also a much better picture. Okay, you have to flip back and forth depending on what you're watching, but it's worth the hassle. I set my folks up with a Pronto, so they have macros that do all this.
For those that want to see the difference, I set up the Magnolia store in Tacoma to do this very comparison of their Pioneer PRO1130 tuner versus their HD cable box.
Obviously, you'll want to use the cable box DVR for playback of recorded material.
I bet that you'll use the Pioneer, though, for the local stuff, once you hook it up.
Dan

Thanks, Dan (and Rob) for the reponse. Really good information. It all makes sense -- plenty of fertile ground to play in! I love the 1130 panel and it sounds like it will just get better.

Way back when I switched from the old TCI to Direct TV, cable was all analog and the difference was significant. Lots has changed in the intervening years. I'm glad the Pioneer system provides the opportunities for lots of dabbling. (The only thing I'll miss from Direct TV is the NFL Season Pass!)

Cheers, Vic

Vic
There's a lot of things that, in theory should be better than others, but aren't.
However, you're in luck.
Bear with me while I explain..............

Actually, KONG-DT is on channel 31 and KING-DT is on channel 48, so KONG-DT is a lower UHF frequency than KING-DT.

----------------

Sorry about that. I didn't have my cheat sheet handy at the time and reversed the channel numbers in my head.

I have problems receiving KOMO although Queen Anne Hill is line-of-sight from my home on Bainbridge Island (give or take a tree or two). The other stations on Queen Anne or Capital Hill all come in fine. I just bought a Winegard PR-4400 which I will try in place of my current Radio Shack VHF-UHF antenna.

I set up the PR-4400 (4-bay plus reflector screen) inside the house and there was a significant improvement. Not only could I receive KOMO, but also the various subchannels on 33. I'm sure putting it on the roof will help even more.

Anyone else notice a signal drop on KCPQ yesterday? I noticed a signal drop midday and re-aimed the cm4248 on my chimney. Then approx 7pm the signal dropped yet again.

---
Signal strength returned the next day. Maybe they were just doing some work at Gold Mountain.

I just purchased an HDTV, and I am using a Terk TV5 antenna. I am able to get channels 4.1, 7.1, 9.x, 11.1, 13.1, 16.1, 22.x, and 28.x, but I can't get 5.1.

I want to know if I can get 5.1 if I try a different antenna. Would the Silver Sensor be a better purchase? I'm at the top of Talbot Hill, and antennaweb says that I should be able to get 5.1, and yet I am unable to. Help!

My address:

2716 morris ave s
Renton, wa

Thanks.

I just purchased an HDTV, and I am using a Terk TV5 antenna. I am able to get channels 4.1, 7.1, 9.x, 11.1, 13.1, 16.1, 22.x, and 28.x, but I can't get 5.1.

I want to know if I can get 5.1 if I try a different antenna. Would the Silver Sensor be a better purchase? I'm at the top of Talbot Hill, and antennaweb says that I should be able to get 5.1, and yet I am unable to. Help!

My address:

2716 morris ave s
Renton, wa

Thanks.
Hi.

I live due east of you in Fairwood West. I believe my elevation is even higher than yours. I was not able to get satisfactory reception with any indoor antenna, including the Silver Sensor.

I am using a $20 UHF yagi-style antenna from Radio Shack (cat. no. 15-2160) mounted on my chimney above my roof line. I receive all of the Queen Anne Hill channels (4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 16.1), the Capitol Hill channels (9.x, 11.1, 22.1) and the Gold Mountain (Bremerton vicinity) channel (13.1) with the antenna in a fixed position (no rotating needed).

I do not receive channel 28.1 (Tacoma) nor the channels on Tiger Mountain (PAX and a shopping channel). For a while I had my antenna set to get Tiger Mountain (furthest east) and Gold Mountain (furthest west) but it was just a little too wide of range, so I gave up on the Tiger Mountain channels which I never really watched anyway.

Why wasn't KING broadcasting the Lake Union fireworks display in HD this year? Haven't they broadcast in HD in years past?

Why wasn't KING broadcasting the Lake Union fireworks display in HD this year? Haven't they broadcast in HD in years past?

Joe
I'm with you! I normally don't get to bugged about stations programming screwups, but this one I was specially looking forward to. My dads first 4th show, seen on his new Elite 50" in HD. Had him switch to KOMO, but he really wanted to see KING. It looked like it might have been HD, but for some reason, was cropped in 4:3, like when they put graphics on the screen. The only other thing that comes to mind is the delayed SNL feed they run from their non HD recorder. Maybe they wanted to have a delay because of someone saying or doing something on live TV....
Anyway, major disappointment !
Dan

Hello: Am moving from Federal Way, Washington to extreme southeast Seattle soon. In Federal Way, the Zenith Silver Sensor indoor HD antenna seemed to produce a slightly better HD picture than the Cable Card or Comcast HD-DVR set top box. Am wondering what the result would be if I could find someone to do an outdoor rooftop or side of balcony Over the Air (OTA) HD antenna correct.

Is it fact or fiction that HD OTA is "better" than Comcast cable? Are we talking about an Urban Myth versus marketing hype?

Thank you for your time and consideration. Yes, I've read Dr. Don's basics elsewhere in this AVS Forum. I'm seeking the best quality regardless of percieved value.

I just purchased an HDTV, and I am using a Terk TV5 antenna. I am able to get channels 4.1, 7.1, 9.x, 11.1, 13.1, 16.1, 22.x, and 28.x, but I can't get 5.1.

I want to know if I can get 5.1 if I try a different antenna. Would the Silver Sensor be a better purchase? I'm at the top of Talbot Hill, and antennaweb says that I should be able to get 5.1, and yet I am unable to. Help!

My address:

2716 morris ave s
Renton, wa

Thanks.

It is difficult to tell so you may just have to try a SS. But often a missing channel is caused by a reflection and moving your existing antenna may solve it. The SS is more directional than the TV5 and that will help with reflections. You may want to try an attenuator first (RS 15-678).

Have you tried moving the TV5 around much?

Hello: Am moving from Federal Way, Washington to extreme southeast Seattle soon. In Federal Way, the Zenith Silver Sensor indoor HD antenna seemed to produce a slightly better HD picture than the Cable Card or Comcast HD-DVR set top box. Am wondering what the result would be if I could find someone to do an outdoor rooftop or side of balcony Over the Air (OTA) HD antenna correct.

Is it fact or fiction that HD OTA is "better" than Comcast cable? Are we talking about an Urban Myth versus marketing hype?

Thank you for your time and consideration. Yes, I've read Dr. Don's basics elsewhere in this AVS Forum. I'm seeking the best quality regardless of percieved value.

An outdoor antenna is almost always better than indoors and OTA is considered the best digital by most. Cable and dish systems seem to degrade the picture to some extent according to some members. I think someone posted that Magnolia-Tacoma or somewhere had a side-by-side comparison set up to view this difference.

I think OTA is marginally better than Comcast HD. Is it enough for most people to notice, probably not. One of the reasons my setup has this is because with OTA, my signal is digital the whole way. Whereas my Comcast box connects via component. That being said, I have heard that satellite can be noticeably worse than OTA, way more so than cable TV. I think that in general, cable TV QAM HD is almost identical to OTA HD.

Hello: Am moving from Federal Way, Washington to extreme southeast Seattle soon. In Federal Way, the Zenith Silver Sensor indoor HD antenna seemed to produce a slightly better HD picture than the Cable Card or Comcast HD-DVR set top box. Am wondering what the result would be if I could find someone to do an outdoor rooftop or side of balcony Over the Air (OTA) HD antenna correct.

Is it fact or fiction that HD OTA is "better" than Comcast cable? Are we talking about an Urban Myth versus marketing hype?

Thank you for your time and consideration. Yes, I've read Dr. Don's basics elsewhere in this AVS Forum. I'm seeking the best quality regardless of percieved value.

Lionanimal
I've done many installs with both cable and antenna, or satellite and antenna, and some that have all three. From my observations, and many other people I've talked to that have both HD cable and antenna HD, the cable has more noise or grain in the picture, and in general, is not as good. It looks more compressed as well.
What looks better in local HD over cable is when you can use a quality TV that has a cable ready tuner card slot. The Motorola boxes, HD or regular, seem to have a slight noise on the outputs. When you take the same cable signal and run it through the TV's tuner, it improves slightly, but noticeably. Either in analog or HD. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I set up this very demo at the Tacoma Magnolia store using the Comcast HD cable box and also running the Cable through the 50" Pioneer PRO-1130's tuner, but not using a cable card in it. You can see Local HD through both tuners, and it definitely looks cleaner and crisper on the Pioneer's tuner. Of course, the channel numbers are goofy, ch5 is 82-5, but that's easy to figure out. They also have over air HD there, too. Unfortunately, it's not connected to the same TV, but is there on the other big screen TV's in the other showroom. The over air still looks better than cable HD either way. If you have time, check it out for yourself.
Comparing national channels on satellite HD to cable HD, is a tossup. Some HD channels are slightly better than others on each. Analog local channels usually look better on cable, but it depends where you are in the distribution system. The satellite national channels versus the same cable channels (A&E, AMC, TBS, etc) depends on the satellite receiver. The newer sat receivers look better, the older ones are another tossup. The plain-jane sat receivers are the same, newer is better.
Hope that helps.
Dan

I think OTA is marginally better than Comcast HD. Is it enough for most people to notice, probably not. One of the reasons my setup has this is because with OTA, my signal is digital the whole way. Whereas my Comcast box connects via component. That being said, I have heard that satellite can be noticeably worse than OTA, way more so than cable TV. I think that in general, cable TV QAM HD is almost identical to OTA HD.

Mike777
Just to let everyone know, not all TV's work well with the digital inputs. Some actually look better through component (analog). I know, it's supposed to be better all digital, but I've hooked it both ways on many sets, and let the customers see for themselves which they would prefer. About 75% of the time, they choose component. And yes, I set the picture settings the same on each input.
What's really sad is some older TV's, projection and plasma's, limit the picture adjustments on the digital inputs. For those that want to use all digital hookups, be sure to check the picture menu's on the TV of your dreams before you buy it!
Dan

Thank you Dan and Mike for commenting on my post about "Fact or Fiction, Urban Myth or Marketing Hype..." I am moving into a three story house and am not going to attempt to install an antenna on the roof myself. But I'm definitely interested in fairly compensating someone for their efforts on my behalf. As a gentleman, I would not want to take advantage of anyone. Hmm. I did some Google-local searchs for contractors, but to no avail.

Any volunteers?

Soes anyone have any experience with Winegard Square Shooter SS-1000 or SS-2000 OTA HD antenna? They have local dealers in Puget Sound. I'm also considering a Terrestial Digital (Antenna's Direct) "Lacrosse" but there are not any local dealers for it in Washington State. There three models are the new-look new-technology 14" by 16" squares. The marketing hype claims superior performance. I wonder what is fact and what is wishful thinking.

I puchased the lacrosse amplified to try out after learning that I was in a lousy area -Milton- For ota. had a money back guarantee. I have only checked it out on the porch, front yard, so on so far. I could not bring in any channels without the amp but when adding the amp I have been able to pick up all networks from the seattle area and kong. I am moving it to the roof this tomorrow and the 'D' installer will run the cable, I hope. I first tried the small radio shack amplified antenna that looks like a small shark fin and got some channels off of that also, so if you can pick up anything with a small indoor i would think the lacrosse would work well

I am hardly an expert though

The HD production truck that used to be based out of the Seattle area, and rented by One Reel Productions to do the fireworks in HD on KING is no longer in the area. Also, it's quite a bit more expensive to do a show like that in full HD. They may not have had a sponsor to pay for bringing in a HD truck, plus pay for satellite time in HD.

Kelly from KOMO,

Why was KOMO's broadcast of the final game of the World Cup so botched (at least on Comcast)? The entire broadcast was riddled with artifacts, and the screen went dark at critical points of the penalty kick shootout?

Others, as this a screwed up OTA, or is it just a Comcast thing?

The HD production truck that used to be based out of the Seattle area, and rented by One Reel Productions to do the fireworks in HD on KING is no longer in the area. Also, it's quite a bit more expensive to do a show like that in full HD. They may not have had a sponsor to pay for bringing in a HD truck, plus pay for satellite time in HD.

Thanks, Kelly. I am glad that at least KOMO had the resources available to handle the HD broadcast over Elliot Bay.

Thumbs up for KOMO for being on the cutting edge!

Thumbs down for KING for not knowing where the future of programming is suppose to go.

One caveate for KING, is that they do have Evening Magazine in HD.

Here's to making HD the standard, rather than the exception!

Kelly from KOMO,

Why was KOMO's broadcast of the final game of the World Cup so botched (at least on Comcast)? The entire broadcast was riddled with artifacts, and the screen went dark at critical points of the penalty kick shootout?

Others, as this a screwed up OTA, or is it just a Comcast thing?
I was watching OTA and it too had several hiccups. When I switched over to basic analog cable I saw no more problems during the last few minutes. Not sure what that means but I bet some/most of that was a problem with the feed from Germany.

Soes anyone have any experience with Winegard Square Shooter SS-1000 or SS-2000 OTA HD antenna? They have local dealers in Puget Sound. I'm also considering a Terrestial Digital (Antenna's Direct) "Lacrosse" but there are not any local dealers for it in Washington State. There three models are the new-look new-technology 14" by 16" squares. The marketing hype claims superior performance. I wonder what is fact and what is wishful thinking.
Several AVS members have used the Square Shooters with generally good results. But the high price makes them not much of a bargain. Since you are so close to the major towers you can use much cheaper antennas like the Channel Master 4221 or the Radio Shack 15-2160. The 4221 seems to be the preffered choice inside 30 miles. You may also get away with an attic or 3rd floor installation if you're even with or above neighboring roofs. Also, do not use an amplified antenna at that distance. In fact you may need an attenuator, especially if going rooftop.

It is difficult to tell so you may just have to try a SS. But often a missing channel is caused by a reflection and moving your existing antenna may solve it. The SS is more directional than the TV5 and that will help with reflections. You may want to try an attenuator first (RS 15-678).

Have you tried moving the TV5 around much?

Quargue....I was thinking of putting up a UHF from my home which is at the intersection of 183rd Ave SE and SE 280th in Kent 98042. What are my chances? How high do you think I would need to go? TIA

Quargue....I was thinking of putting up a UHF from my home which is at the intersection of 183rd Ave SE and SE 280th in Kent 98042. What are my chances? How high do you think I would need to go? TIA
You have no intervening hills so you only need to clear nearby houses and/or thick trees. If you can't go over the trees then sometimes a lower mount will let you go under the canopy to avoid the most foliage. You are generally looking at 15 feet to 30 feet unless the trees are extreme, in which case you may need a mast on the roof. Your vector is NW. If you have a wall that faces NW and a 2+ story house you could consider a bowtie design like the Channel Master 4221 which can be fastened flat to the wall as well as mast mounted.

If you already have an OTA digital receiver or TV then go to Radio Shack and grab a 15-2160 to experiment with. Once you find what locations and heights give the best results you can decide whether to keep the 2160 or go to something better. RS has good return policy so that makes it the easiest and cheapest as a starter.

I found this thread a couple days ago, read all of it, tried my best on my own, and now it's time to ask for help...

I'm in the Montlake neighborhood in Seattle on 26th Ave E, between Boyer and Newton right next to the Arboretum. I tried several indoor antennas and with those I can see the towers on Madison (channels 9, 11, 22) very easily. However, I would only get an occasion sniff from the Queen Anne towers (4, 5, 7). So I went to Fry's and got a CM 4228. With this on the roof I can get a signal strength of 50 for KOMO on my HDTIVO which is OK. Unfortunately, I can only get mid-30's signal strength for KING and KIRO which is right on the edge of decent reception. This is really frustrating because I'm so close and need just that little bit more.

I've tried an attenuator which was no help.

I also got a RS 15-1170 Signal Amplifier. The directions say to put the amplifier piece next to the antenna and the powered piece indoors. I got lazy and I tried putting both indoors (rather than climbing on the roof again) and it didn't seem to help the signal strength.

Questions:
1. I have a 50ft. cable run, should I bother with the 15-1170? Use a different amplifier?
2. I used RG59 to connect the antenna, should I have used RG6?
3. I used a 6 ft mast. Should I go higher?
4. I also got a CM 3018 from Lowes that's still in the box. From the stats on the CM site and this thread the CM 4228 should be better for me but I'm willing to experiment.
5. Is there another antenna brand/model that I should get?

Thanks in advance for all of the help, this thread has been a great resource.

Boris.

I found this thread a couple days ago, read all of it, tried my best on my own, and now it's time to ask for help...

I'm in the Montlake neighborhood in Seattle on 26th Ave E, between Boyer and Newton right next to the Arboretum. I tried several indoor antennas and with those I can see the towers on Madison (channels 9, 11, 22) very easily. However, I would only get an occasion sniff from the Queen Anne towers (4, 5, 7). So I went to Fry's and got a CM 4228. With this on the roof I can get a signal strength of 50 for KOMO on my HDTIVO which is OK. Unfortunately, I can only get mid-30's signal strength for KING and KIRO which is right on the edge of decent reception. This is really frustrating because I'm so close and need just that little bit more.

I've tried an attenuator which was no help.

I also got a RS 15-1170 Signal Amplifier. The directions say to put the amplifier piece next to the antenna and the powered piece indoors. I got lazy and I tried putting both indoors (rather than climbing on the roof again) and it didn't seem to help the signal strength.

Questions:
1. I have a 50ft. cable run, should I bother with the 15-1170? Use a different amplifier?
2. I used RG59 to connect the antenna, should I have used RG6?
3. I used a 6 ft mast. Should I go higher?
4. I also got a CM 3018 from Lowes that's still in the box. From the stats on the CM site and this thread the CM 4228 should be better for me but I'm willing to experiment.
5. Is there another antenna brand/model that I should get?

Thanks in advance for all of the help, this thread has been a great resource.

Boris.

If you can try different locations on your roof, there might be one which works. I have a similar problem (on Bainbridge Island) but in my case KOMO is the one I have trouble receiving. I replaced my RS VHF/UHF with a Winegard 4-bay UHF and before I put it on the roof I tried it inside the house and found that in a few locations I could get not only KOMO but also the PAX station (Tiger Mountain?) However, when I installed the new antenna on the roof I still couldn't get KOMO.

I may try to find another spot on the roof, but I am getting a DirecTV 5-LNB dish installed on 7/31 (DirecTV doesn't carry KOMO or KCPQ HD yet, but hopefully they will soon). I will keep the OTA antenna for 9-5, etc. There's no way I can get KCPQ OTA (hills in the way).

I found this thread a couple days ago, read all of it, tried my best on my own, and now it's time to ask for help...

I'm in the Montlake neighborhood in Seattle on 26th Ave E, between Boyer and Newton right next to the Arboretum. I tried several indoor antennas and with those I can see the towers on Madison (channels 9, 11, 22) very easily. However, I would only get an occasion sniff from the Queen Anne towers (4, 5, 7). So I went to Fry's and got a CM 4228. With this on the roof I can get a signal strength of 50 for KOMO on my HDTIVO which is OK. Unfortunately, I can only get mid-30's signal strength for KING and KIRO which is right on the edge of decent reception. This is really frustrating because I'm so close and need just that little bit more.

I've tried an attenuator which was no help.

I also got a RS 15-1170 Signal Amplifier. The directions say to put the amplifier piece next to the antenna and the powered piece indoors. I got lazy and I tried putting both indoors (rather than climbing on the roof again) and it didn't seem to help the signal strength.

Questions:
1. I have a 50ft. cable run, should I bother with the 15-1170? Use a different amplifier?
2. I used RG59 to connect the antenna, should I have used RG6?
3. I used a 6 ft mast. Should I go higher?
4. I also got a CM 3018 from Lowes that's still in the box. From the stats on the CM site and this thread the CM 4228 should be better for me but I'm willing to experiment.
5. Is there another antenna brand/model that I should get?

Thanks in advance for all of the help, this thread has been a great resource.

Boris.
rdn made some good points - it's mainly about location. The 4228 is overkill for you. Although it is very directional it is also very high gain. So it pickups all the myriad reflections you get in an urban setting. The 3018 is also overkill and makes me wonder if you are also trying to pull in analog VHF/UHF as well as digital OTA. The 50 foot cable should be no problem. Preamps come into play at 100+ feet. The mast height may not matter as much as lateral position, unless you have tall buildings or thick trees to the west. The "signal meter" is really reading "signal quality" not strength. You have a low reading from too much signal or too many reflections, or both.

I would return the 4228 and 3018 (if digital is all you want). Get a CM 4221 or a Rat Shack 15-2160 for experiments. Keep the attenuator in the line so you can check its affect on every location you try. You are very close to the towers and are being blasted with lots of signal as well as reflections. Urban areas are very tricky when you're that close. It will take lots of patience as well as trial and error. Another trick for being close in is to tilt the antenna up about 15 degrees. The signal is actually coming down on you at 30+ degrees.

One last thought: did you try the Silver Sensor antenna?

And finally: if money is no object, the Winegard Square Shooter (unamplified model SS-1000) is designed exactly for your situation. But it's $80-$100.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.rdn made some good points - it's mainly about location.
The 4228 is overkill for you. Although it is very directional it is also very high gain. So it pickups all the myriad reflections you get in an urban setting. The 3018 is also overkill and makes me wonder if you are also trying to pull in analog VHF/UHF as well as digital OTA.Nope, HD OTA via UHF only. Hmmm... My initial instinct is to think that location on the roof (vs. direction and height) wouldn't make a difference but I'll give it a try. The only catch is that my plan was to mount the antenna using a chimney mount and, in fact, that's how the 4228 is currently in place. I have two chimneys, the current one is better because its more central to the roof and isn't visible from the street. However, I'll see if moving to the other one makes a difference.The 50 foot cable should be no problem. Preamps come into play at 100+ feet.Actually, earlier tonight I exchanged the 15-1170 for the 15-2507 and made the climb to the roof to hook it up right. It seems to have made a difference. My signal meter now reads 40-50 for KOMO, KING, and KIRO. This is just about enough to meet the bar. I lost KCTS (too much signal I suspect) but I can mostly live with that.The mast height may not matter as much as lateral position, unless you have tall buildings or thick trees to the west. The "signal meter" is really reading "signal quality" not strength. You have a low reading from too much signal or too many reflections, or both.Ok. Next time I'm up on the roof I'll take a look but I don't think I'll need a taller mast then.I would return the 4228 and 3018 (if digital is all you want). Get a CM 4221 or a Rat Shack 15-2160 for experiments. Keep the attenuator in the line so you can check its affect on every location you try. You are very close to the towers and are being blasted with lots of signal as well as reflections. Urban areas are very tricky when you're that close. It will take lots of patience as well as trial and error. Another trick for being close in is to tilt the antenna up about 15 degrees. The signal is actually coming down on you at 30+ degrees.

One last thought: did you try the Silver Sensor antenna?

And finally: if money is no object, the Winegard Square Shooter (unamplified model SS-1000) is designed exactly for your situation. But it's $80-$100.I didn't try the Silver Sensor but did get the Terk HDTVi which looks similar in the pictures. I could only get a sniff from Queen Anne with that.

I had thought about the notion of tilting the antenna but couldn't come up with a good strategy for doing that with a chimney mount short of bending the pole. When I'm experimenting with the 15-2160 or one of the others I'll give it a try just in my hands.

I can get the 15-2160 just down the street and see how that goes. Do you know carries the CM 4221 or the Winegard SS-1000 locally and with a liberal return policy? How much better is the Winegard?

Do you know carries the CM 4221 or the Winegard SS-1000 locally and with a liberal return policy? How much better is the Winegard?

The only place that I found that used to carry/order the CM4221 locally didn't allow returns and went out of business anyways. It's a very cheap antenna, you can get it for around $30.00 including shipping from www.solidsignal.com. Both myself and my neighbor got ours from there. They get them out pretty quick. If it doesn't work out I'd bet it'd be pretty easy to unload it locally on Craigslist or something.

BigBoris - the tilt thing is rather hit or miss. It is worth trying when all else fails. Fry's in Renton used to carry the CM 4221 (3021) but may have dried up like the other sources. SolidSignal has a decent return policy but you're out the shipping - they do carry the SS-1000 (open box for $67 last I looked). As you have found, this is not an exact science. The best things to have in your arsenal are an antenna with some sort of backside screen or guard elements and a variable attenuator. I'm a little surprised the amplifier worked and makes me wonder about the quality of your cable. Are using RG6 or ???

The best things to have in your arsenal are an antenna with some sort of backside screen or guard elements and a variable attenuator. I'm a little surprised the amplifier worked and makes me wonder about the quality of your cable. Are using RG6 or ???I tried the attentuator with both the indoor antennas and with the CM 4228 and the signal quality seemed to degrade linearly with the amount of attentuation dialed in. You're saying it would be more effective with a different antenna?

I'm using 50 ft. of RG59. Should I swap it out for RG6?

Thanks for the help and suggestions.Nope, HD OTA via UHF only. Hmmm... My initial instinct is to think that location on the roof (vs. direction and height) wouldn't make a difference but I'll give it a try. The only catch is that my plan was to mount the antenna using a chimney mount and, in fact, that's how the 4228 is currently in place. I have two chimneys, the current one is better because its more central to the roof and isn't visible from the street. However, I'll see if moving to the other one makes a difference.Actually, earlier tonight I exchanged the 15-1170 for the 15-2507 and made the climb to the roof to hook it up right. It seems to have made a difference. My signal meter now reads 40-50 for KOMO, KING, and KIRO. This is just about enough to meet the bar. I lost KCTS (too much signal I suspect) but I can mostly live with that.Ok. Next time I'm up on the roof I'll take a look but I don't think I'll need a taller mast then.I didn't try the Silver Sensor but did get the Terk HDTVi which looks similar in the pictures. I could only get a sniff from Queen Anne with that.

I had thought about the notion of tilting the antenna but couldn't come up with a good strategy for doing that with a chimney mount short of bending the pole. When I'm experimenting with the 15-2160 or one of the others I'll give it a try just in my hands.

I can get the 15-2160 just down the street and see how that goes. Do you know carries the CM 4221 or the Winegard SS-1000 locally and with a liberal return policy? How much better is the Winegard?

BigBoris
Bottom line, you're in a bad spot. I've tried many homes around there, even much higher on the hillside. Similar results. Of course, anything will get 9-11-22, it's right next to you. The rest are way over your head, signal wise. Because you're so close, though, some residual comes over the hill, and is just enough to make some receiver's indicators read a little. However, if you saw what it looks like on an analyzer, it's all chopped up instead of a nice flat waveform, and bouncing around. I never say never, but it takes a pretty good tuner to be able to sort out the signal from all the hash.

The other problem you have is the very strong ANALOG signal from ch22. You can't measure that on your indicator. It causes the tuners built in preamp to dial itself waaaay back (amplify less). It works on the entire UHF band, not the individual channel. The result is the tuner can't pull out the weak signals (4-5-7-13) from the strong ones. Kind of like trying to listen to people talking at a whisper when you're sitting in the front row of a rock concert. If you put up a bigger antenna, it just magnifies the problem, same as a preamp. In theory, you could use a very directional stacked pair of yagi's, but the Capital Hill towers will still come in on the side. You could add some UHF traps, which I've tried, but there's still so much other harmonic noise, it's hard to trap it all out. And it still doesn't help the chopped up signal. The only location I got to work near you was at Royal Ct and Roanoke. I used a small yagi. It's a lucky location. Even east of you, in Broadmoor, further away from the hill, it's tough and barely works.

For the record, yes, you should use RG6. The Square Shooter is a joke. I compared it against the 4221 and others for 6 months of installs, never did better than the 4221, usually much worse. It's in my scrap pile of failed antennas. The 15-2160, or any small yagi, is just too overwhelmed by your location. I do use that little guy in the easy locations, and it works well. The only time the tilt thing worked for me was on the side of QA Hill, right under the towers. Anywhere else, it made no difference, really. Preamps aren't necessarily needed at 50ft or 100ft. It depends more on how much signal you have to work with, what channel you're tuned to, what antenna you're using and more.

What you're doing now is really the best way. You have it, almost, so stay with that setup and try different locations. Moving the mounting spot up, down, left, right, forward, backward a matter of just 6 inches, yes INCHES, can make or break it.
As you move it from place to place, keep a log of each channel, whether you want it or not, and it's readings on your indicator. After a while, you'll begin to see a pattern of which channels are affected the most, or least. For the sensitive locations, look off into the distance and see what seems to be affecting it. It's not quick and easy, but will tell you a lot more about wassup than trying different antennas. Once you have the data, post the results here. At that point, I can make a recommendation of what to try next.

Dan

You have some hills to the NW that just barely block line of sight. So to even have a chance you need to get your antenna up pretty high (about 35 feet or more). This can be done with a mast on a 2-story house. the trees will definitley have an impact. It is impossible to judge that impact without putting up an antenna and seeing how much signal gets through. You will want a high gain antenna like the 4248 or 4228 and a preamp to give you all the possible advantages. You may want to hire an installer to do a site survey.
Hi, I am in a similar situation in Maple Valley. I recently got a Directv HD DVR and was hoping to get the OTA HD's, rather than upgrading to D* upcoming HD DVR offering (assuming it ever comes out...)

My questions are, can I get reception where I am located (address is at the crossroads of 276th Street and 237th Ave SE in Maple Valley, 98038) and what is the recommended small to medium size indoor or outdoor antenna?

I live in a 2 story house and was planning on connecting my antenna to my existing D* mount. Antennaweb shows me having reception, but I was hoping to get a clearer picture before investing in equipment.

Anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

Hi, I am in a similar situation in Maple Valley. I recently got a Directv HD DVR and was hoping to get the OTA HD's, rather than upgrading to D* upcoming HD DVR offering (assuming it ever comes out...)

My questions are, can I get reception where I am located (address is at the crossroads of 276th Street and 237th Ave SE in Maple Valley, 98038) and what is the recommended small to medium size indoor or outdoor antenna?

I live in a 2 story house and was planning on connecting my antenna to my existing D* mount. Antennaweb shows me having reception, but I was hoping to get a clearer picture before investing in equipment.

Anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks in advance!
You have nothing blocking the Seattle towers so unless you have a very dense clump of trees to go through you should have a good chance. The CM 4221 seems to be the preferred choice, mounted outdoors.

Thanks so much!

Anyone but me finding OTA KING news not broadcasting in HD at the 5:30 hour? I can tune in to KOMO and KIRO HD just fine, but KING keeps searching for a signal. When 6:00 arrives, NBC national news apprears. I have not kept statistics but it seems this has occurred more than once.

Mike

Thanks so much!

Back in the day I was hoping for indoor antenna as well. The CM 4221 was recommended, I was skeptical, I tried attic mount, finally put it outside. Success - I am very happy even though I think the broadcasters are still learning. The good news - the CM 4221 is quite inconspicuous and inexpensive.

The regulars on this thread are incredibly knowledgable.

BoB
No antenna is made for the attic. Some work there, but they really need to be outside to work their best. Some UHF antennas are quite small.and don't have to be mounted above the roof. You can get creative as long as they can see the towers. I have one hanging under a deck that's only 3ft above the ground, 15 miles out, works great, can't be seen from anywhere unless you crawl under it.

I don't remember where this was. Refresh my pea brain. What's the cross streets where you are? I can then give you a better idea of what's needed.
Dan

Novelty Hill and Cedar Park Crescent (Redmond Ridge Neighborhood). Sorry for the delay in responding. I missed a notification and the board doesn't send another one.

Thanks,
BoB

Novelty Hill and Cedar Park Crescent (Redmond Ridge Neighborhood). Sorry for the delay in responding. I missed a notification and the board doesn't send another one.

Thanks,
BoB

BoB
The area is a pretty good location on paper, but I know there's a bunch of trees along Novelty rd. You have a good shot at it if they aren't too thick near you, in the SW direction. I have a few near there that work pretty good, but they're all outside, nothing in an attic.
Dan

From ABC:

"Live coverage of the 2006 British Open, airing on the ABC Television Network on Saturday and Sunday, July 22nd and 23rd , is being shot in standard definition PAL using the 16x9 aspect ratio. ABC will maintain this aspect ratio by airing this program upconverted from PAL to 720P on our HDTV broadcast to ABC affiliate stations. This will not be an HD sourced program, but should provide viewers with an enhanced viewing experience. The highlight programs and wrap-up shows will not air in this enhanced format. All broadcasts will be stereo. The standard definition broadcast will be a 4x3 centercut of the 16x9 source image."

And yet I am staring right now at a 4:3 image on KomoTV. Is ABC not doing what they say above, or is Komo being stupid at the moment and broadcasting the wrong feed?

Cool -- I called KOMO master control and they switched to 16x9. Nice.

Cool -- I called KOMO master control and they switched to 16x9. Nice.

Thanks. I was just getting ready to do that myself.

BoB
The area is a pretty good location on paper, but I know there's a bunch of trees along Novelty rd. You have a good shot at it if they aren't too thick near you, in the SW direction. I have a few near there that work pretty good, but they're all outside, nothing in an attic.
Dan

Thanks, Dan! I have no trees directly to the south; the nearest trees in the direction you mention are about 500 yards away. Nice clear view for my DirecTV dish (that's SE, but the view is the same for all southern exposures). I may be able to put an antenna up under one of my eaves to make sure I clear those pines. Good recommendation for an 'under eave' antenna?

Thanks,
BoB

KTWB has changed its call letters to KMYQ.

KTWB has changed its call letters to KMYQ.

Yeah, they are posturing for when the WB network goes bye-bye. It probably indicates a closer relationship with KCPQ (also owned by Tribune). Maybe something like KING/KONG(?)

KMYQ Will be a affiliate of the new Network "MyNetwork TV" owned by Fox. That would explain the "MY" in there...

Thanks, Dan! I have no trees directly to the south; the nearest trees in the direction you mention are about 500 yards away. Nice clear view for my DirecTV dish (that's SE, but the view is the same for all southern exposures). I may be able to put an antenna up under one of my eaves to make sure I clear those pines. Good recommendation for an 'under eave' antenna?

Thanks,
BoB

BoB
It's not south for the stations, but south west. Actually, even more west than SW or Novelty road. You can mount the 4221 on the side of the house with a RatShack 15-885 wall mount, spaced about 30" apart. Make sure it's a foot below the eave so all the antenna can see the signal. A 15-2160 can also be mounted under an eave, but probably won't work that well out there.
Dan

BoB
It's not south for the stations, but south west. Actually, even more west than SW or Novelty road. You can mount the 4221 on the side of the house with a RatShack 15-885 wall mount, spaced about 30" apart. Make sure it's a foot below the eave so all the antenna can see the signal. A 15-2160 can also be mounted under an eave, but probably won't work that well out there.
Dan

Can I mount it horizontally? I assume so, since it shouldn't matter to RF, but all the pics I see show it vertical. Also, will I get some residual VHF or should I get a VHF antenna as well? The reason I want VHF is for rooms where I don't have a satellite receiver.

Thanks,
BoB

Can I mount it horizontally? I assume so, since it shouldn't matter to RF, but all the pics I see show it vertical. Also, will I get some residual VHF or should I get a VHF antenna as well? The reason I want VHF is for rooms where I don't have a satellite receiver.

Thanks,
BoB

You need to mount it with the bow-tie elements horizontal (which means the longer dimension of the reflector is vertical). The broadcast signals are horizontally polarized and the receiving antenna must match that. It won't do much for VHF, but if the signals are strong enough you may still get a usable picture.

Can I mount it horizontally? I assume so, since it shouldn't matter to RF, but all the pics I see show it vertical. Also, will I get some residual VHF or should I get a VHF antenna as well? The reason I want VHF is for rooms where I don't have a satellite receiver.

Thanks,
BoB

BoB
It needs to be vertical, but can be mounted almost right against a wall. It's 4 stacked bow ties. If you layed it on it's back, the closer of the bow ties gets way out of phase and time with the ones further back. Vertically, they all work together.
You won't get much VHF, if any. Some people get the high VHF band channels 7-13, but not well. If you were closer in, it might do something, but not much where you are. It will also look pretty ugly, lots of ghosts. You could run the UHF through a HD receiver and let it down convert for a regular tv, though. Works great. No ghosts, very clean pictures. I use old sat receivers that owners give me, and then just turn off the sat part. People usually throw them out when they upgrade to Tivo, so you might even find some used ones cheap.
Dan

I've been perusing the thread and I saw back in early 2005 some people mentioned that Comcast in Bellevue was sending some HD signals through their limited basic analog package, those with cable card TVs could take advantage of this. Others mentioned that the FCC was beginning to mandate offering those for free.

Since this was over a year ago, is this still the case? Which channels do you receive by this method?

If it's true, it might narrow my flatscreen TV shopping to those with QAM decoders?

Thanks.

I've been perusing the thread and I saw back in early 2005 some people mentioned that Comcast in Bellevue was sending some HD signals through their limited basic analog package, those with cable card TVs could take advantage of this. Others mentioned that the FCC was beginning to mandate offering those for free.

Since this was over a year ago, is this still the case? Which channels do you receive by this method?

If it's true, it might narrow my flatscreen TV shopping to those with QAM decoders?

Thanks.
Short answer is yes, the equivalent of the OTA digital channels are available at no additional charge with any Comcast package, including Limited Basic.

There is much more discussion on this subject on the Seattle Comcast thread.

Its been a little while since I was looking into OTA. Since Dish Network started carrying my biggest problem station (KOMO) and appeared close to carrying my second weakest station (KCPQ) I've been content with what I'm getting off a CM4248 mounted on my second floor chimney. But now it appears that Tribune and Dish are going to be hung up in protracted negotiations over KCPQ (Tribune is demanding Dish also carry the new KMYQ). With football season growing closer, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a better OTA antenna than the CM4248. I'm in the Mill Creek area (near 164th and just east of 3rd Ave SE). Problem is I'm in the shadow of a big hill and (of course) the trees.

Its been a little while since I was looking into OTA. Since Dish Network started carrying my biggest problem station (KOMO) and appeared close to carrying my second weakest station (KCPQ) I've been content with what I'm getting off a CM4248 mounted on my second floor chimney. But now it appears that Tribune and Dish are going to be hung up in protracted negotiations over KCPQ (Tribune is demanding Dish also carry the new KMYQ). With football season growing closer, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a better OTA antenna than the CM4248. I'm in the Mill Creek area (near 164th and just east of 3rd Ave SE). Problem is I'm in the shadow of a big hill and (of course) the trees.

I wonder if that is why KCPQ HD isn't carried on DirecTV yet. There's no way I could receive it OTA because of hills. I haven't had much luck with KOMO either, although its transmitter is pretty*close to those of KIRO, KING and KONG--I can find a few places indoors where I can pick up KOMO but not from any of the convenient mounting points on my roof (I have tried a Radio Shack VHF/UHF and a Winegard PR-4400). The last I*heard, DirecTV wasn't carrying KOMO yet, but hopefully that will change soon. My new dish is scheduled for installation next Monday. KOMO should be line-of-sight from here (Bainbridge Island [Eagledale]) except for the inevitable trees.

Its been a little while since I was looking into OTA. Since Dish Network started carrying my biggest problem station (KOMO) and appeared close to carrying my second weakest station (KCPQ) I've been content with what I'm getting off a CM4248 mounted on my second floor chimney. But now it appears that Tribune and Dish are going to be hung up in protracted negotiations over KCPQ (Tribune is demanding Dish also carry the new KMYQ). With football season growing closer, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a better OTA antenna than the CM4248. I'm in the Mill Creek area (near 164th and just east of 3rd Ave SE). Problem is I'm in the shadow of a big hill and (of course) the trees.
The 4248 is one of the best around so doubt another unit would make a huge difference. Sounds like you need more height and perhaps a preamp. Your clear-sight point is about 60 feet from the ground so the closer you can get to that height the better off you'll be. When you say "second floor chimney" do you mean outside or inside?

The 4248 is one of the best around so doubt another unit would make a huge difference. Sounds like you need more height and perhaps a preamp. Your clear-sight point is about 60 feet from the ground so the closer you can get to that height the better off you'll be. When you say "second floor chimney" do you mean outside or inside?

Outside. I'll have to measure but guess is the height at the top of the chimney is approx 30 feet. I have a 10' mast. How many feet up can you go on an exterior chimney mount before you get into trouble? I have an elm tree that might be high enough but I imagine it would be subject to swaying at that height.

I've tried a CM preamp already. It didn't make that much difference. The cable is not that long (50') with the current setup. I haven't actually seen picture breakup on KCPQ since I re-aimed/peaked on it about a month ago. It might be ok. On my Dish 622 meter the numbers are a low of 64 to a high of 71. I'm worried about when the weather changes when fall rolls around and football season gets here.

Outside. I'll have to measure but guess is the height at the top of the chimney is approx 30 feet. I have a 10' mast. How many feet up can you go on an exterior chimney mount before you get into trouble? I have an elm tree that might be high enough but I imagine it would be subject to swaying at that height.

I've tried a CM preamp already. It didn't make that much difference. The cable is not that long (50') with the current setup. I haven't actually seen picture breakup on KCPQ since I re-aimed/peaked on it about a month ago. It might be ok. On my Dish 622 meter the numbers are a low of 64 to a high of 71. I'm worried about when the weather changes when fall rolls around and football season gets here.

30' + 10' = 40' total then? Or 30' including the mast?

If you use guy wires you can go pretty high. Do you have a way to tie it down at 3-4 points, evenly spaced? Without guy wires I wouldn't go much beyond 10' above the chimney top. We have the occasional wicked wind storms here. I guess you could try an extra 10' section as a temporary test (on a calm day). If that makes a big difference then consider guy wires. You need at least 3 but prefferably 4 equally spaced points. If your chimney is on one edge of the house then that makes it tough. I have seen a few people run 1-2 wires to the ground and the rest to the roof. It will be rather ugly.

IF I managed to clear the 60' would I be ok with a smaller antenna? Something that wouldn't catch the wind. Maybe like the CM3000?

IF I managed to clear the 60' would I be ok with a smaller antenna? Something that wouldn't catch the wind. Maybe like the CM3000?
Since you're only 16 miles from QA hill you could use almost anything. But another consideration is the hilltop you are trying to overcome. If it is thick with trees or buildings that may raise your clear-sight point even higher. 60' is a rough estimate based on my topo map. There is no harm in experimenting but there is no guarantee 60' will do it. The Radio Shack 15-2160 is small, light and cheap if you want to stick one on a pole for testing. It's also easy to buy and return locally.

I have tried the CM3000 "flying saucer" and found it to be worthless for digital. It is an omnidirectional design which is exactly NOT what you want for digital reception. It might be OK for analog but I was not testing for that. For digital you want something very directional with good backside screening to stop reflections. The CM 4221/3021 is the most popular but it presents a little more wind load than the 15-2160 since is tall and flat.

Since you're only 16 miles from QA hill you could use almost anything. But another consideration is the hilltop you are trying to overcome. If it is thick with trees or buildings that may raise your clear-sight point even higher. 60' is a rough estimate based on my topo map. There is no harm in experimenting but there is no guarantee 60' will do it. The Radio Shack 15-2160 is small, light and cheap if you want to stick one on a pole for testing. It's also easy to buy and return locally.

I have tried the CM3000 "flying saucer" and found it to be worthless for digital. It is an omnidirectional design which is exactly NOT what you want for digital reception. It might be OK for analog but I was not testing for that. For digital you want something very directional with good backside screening to stop reflections. The CM 4221/3021 is the most popular but it presents a little more wind load than the 15-2160 since is tall and flat.


Thanks again. I might try that. Would it make sense structually to stack 10' pole sections together? I'm thinking possibly two braces at the base of the chimney and two at the top. But I'm concerned about the natural sway involved on the pole going 30' above the top of the chimney with any wind. I've got it grounded but another thing I might be worried about is lightening.

It sounds like an interesting project. I don't know. Again the whole problem revolves around channel 13 and the Seahawks. Maybe I can get by with what I have already. I'll need to mull this over.

Just a quick question.... How is KIRO-7 able to broadcast the Southwest Airlines Torchlight Parade in HD??? Kiro doesn't even broadcast their own newscasts in HD.... Is this something new for them? or is it a one time thing??? Does anyone know?...

By the way I guess I should mention I'm viewing it OTA from the Mukilteo area....

Thanks again. I might try that. Would it make sense structually to stack 10' pole sections together? I'm thinking possibly two braces at the base of the chimney and two at the top. But I'm concerned about the natural sway involved on the pole going 30' above the top of the chimney with any wind. I've got it grounded but another thing I might be worried about is lightening.

It sounds like an interesting project. I don't know. Again the whole problem revolves around channel 13 and the Seahawks. Maybe I can get by with what I have already. I'll need to mull this over.
If 13 is your only major concern then going up another 30' probably won't matter that much. Your sight line to the 13 tower is very good even at 30' because of the difference in angle to Bremerton vs. QA (that hill is not in the way for 13). Your problem with 13 may be aiming or location. Try aiming further west (without losing 4,5,7). Or try moving your antenna to other locations.

Just a quick question.... How is KIRO-7 able to broadcast the Southwest Airlines Torchlight Parade in HD??? Kiro doesn't even broadcast their own newscasts in HD.... Is this something new for them? or is it a one time thing??? Does anyone know?...
Maybe CBS is sending their HD crew for national coverage.

NOT! :D :D :D

Thanks again. I might try that. Would it make sense structually to stack 10' pole sections together? I'm thinking possibly two braces at the base of the chimney and two at the top. But I'm concerned about the natural sway involved on the pole going 30' above the top of the chimney with any wind. I've got it grounded but another thing I might be worried about is lightening.

It sounds like an interesting project. I don't know. Again the whole problem revolves around channel 13 and the Seahawks. Maybe I can get by with what I have already. I'll need to mull this over.

Chuck
Your problem is the trees on the hillside. Lots of them, and for a quarter mile. As they grow and change, so will your reception. Yes, ch13 starts from a higher hilltop, but the hill is still giving you grief. I saw it on the meter when we checked it. Signal is there, but very chopped up. The change in elevation to the hilltop is about 90ft, plus the trees. Use a telescoping 30ft mast, Ratshack has them. Then if it doesn't work, you can at least take it back. You need to guy these things at all three levels, with at least three wires per level. But for a test, lean it against your chimney, and have some one help you. Then see what you get. It might just be enough. You were almost there before.
Dan

Just a quick question.... How is KIRO-7 able to broadcast the Southwest Airlines Torchlight Parade in HD??? Kiro doesn't even broadcast their own newscasts in HD.... Is this something new for them? or is it a one time thing??? Does anyone know?...

KIRO Rented an HD production truck for this event. It is a one time deal, so enjoy!

Chuck
Your problem is the trees on the hillside. Lots of them, and for a quarter mile. As they grow and change, so will your reception. Yes, ch13 starts from a higher hilltop, but the hill is still giving you grief. I saw it on the meter when we checked it. Signal is there, but very chopped up. The change in elevation to the hilltop is about 90ft, plus the trees. Use a telescoping 30ft mast, Ratshack has them. Then if it doesn't work, you can at least take it back. You need to guy these things at all three levels, with at least three wires per level. But for a test, lean it against your chimney, and have some one help you. Then see what you get. It might just be enough. You were almost there before.
Dan

Thanks Dan. Since I repointed a few degrees west to maximize KCPQ since Dish started carrying the big 3 (KOMO, KING, KIRO) I haven't yet seen picture breakup on 13 (11 and 22 are a little weaker than they were but they seem fine too). Of course the main concern is how it will work during football season and that is an unknown. If I have problems I'll try the RS mast. Once Dish and Tribune resolve their squable I'll be fine. I should be able to repoint to where I got everything solid but KOMO and KCPQ. The PQ is slightly less over Dish than OTA so OTA is still the way to go if you have a choice.

How come Titan TV is showing KTWBDT2 - 22.2 "The Tube Music Network"? Is this a new channel? Do I need to reprogram my Tuner to get this?

How come Titan TV is showing KTWBDT2 - 22.2 "The Tube Music Network"? Is this a new channel? Do I need to reprogram my Tuner to get this?
Yes, this showed up about 2 months ago. It has already been mentioned earlier in this thread.

How come Titan TV is showing KTWBDT2 - 22.2 "The Tube Music Network"? Is this a new channel? Do I need to reprogram my Tuner to get this?

It's now KMYQDT2. Rescan the channels on your tuner and it should show up (assuming you can get 22.1

SD music videos, 24/7.

I am on the top of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle using a rabbit ears UHF/VHF antenna. I get digital channels 4, 5, 7, 9 and 16 with no distortion.

Channel 11 is not even found when I auto-tune for channels and 13 always has a weak signal/no program box on my TV. I have tried moving the antenna to different locations and it never picks up 11 or 13. I can live without 11, but would really like to have 13 for football season.

The odd part is channel 13 worked well when I first bought the TV around December. Not sure when it stopped working but I know I watched the Seahawks in HD last year and would like to do it again this year. I checked antennaweb and it shows the channel 13 tower is 22 miles away while most of the others are less than 2, so my guess is that has something to do with it.

Any ideas on how to restore 13 so I can watch the Hawks tear it up in HD?

I am on the top of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle using a rabbit ears UHF/VHF antenna. I get digital channels 4, 5, 7, 9 and 16 with no distortion.

Channel 11 is not even found when I auto-tune for channels and 13 always has a weak signal/no program box on my TV. I have tried moving the antenna to different locations and it never picks up 11 or 13. I can live without 11, but would really like to have 13 for football season.

The odd part is channel 13 worked well when I first bought the TV around December. Not sure when it stopped working but I know I watched the Seahawks in HD last year and would like to do it again this year. I checked antennaweb and it shows the channel 13 tower is 22 miles away while most of the others are less than 2, so my guess is that has something to do with it.

Any ideas on how to restore 13 so I can watch the Hawks tear it up in HD?

I'm pretty sure Channel 11 is on Capitol Hill (same location as 9 and 22). One would think that the reception would be similar, but perhaps the difference in frequency (and possibly power level) makes a difference. I have a similar problem getting Channel 4, although 5 and 7 come in fine).

Channel 13 is a different story, since it is located on Gold Mtn. near Bremerton. You might need a rooftop antenna for that one. I can't receive it on Bainbridge Island but there are hills in the way.

Yeah, they are posturing for when the WB network goes bye-bye. It probably indicates a closer relationship with KCPQ (also owned by Tribune). Maybe something like KING/KONG(?)

This afternoon I saw the erstwhile WB22 ID as "My Q2". Rather a clever play on both Q13 and My Network TV.

I am on the top of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle using a rabbit ears UHF/VHF antenna. I get digital channels 4, 5, 7, 9 and 16 with no distortion.

Channel 11 is not even found when I auto-tune for channels and 13 always has a weak signal/no program box on my TV. I have tried moving the antenna to different locations and it never picks up 11 or 13. I can live without 11, but would really like to have 13 for football season.

The odd part is channel 13 worked well when I first bought the TV around December. Not sure when it stopped working but I know I watched the Seahawks in HD last year and would like to do it again this year. I checked antennaweb and it shows the channel 13 tower is 22 miles away while most of the others are less than 2, so my guess is that has something to do with it.

Any ideas on how to restore 13 so I can watch the Hawks tear it up in HD?
The major difference between December and now is the amount of tree foliage. So that may be why 13 has disappeared. Secondly, the antenna you have is the bottom of the barrel as antennas go. The loop used for UHF is very non-directional and very low gain (may be fine for QA towers but nothing else). Third, your location means you need to receive signals from several different directions. This is usually handled by using a rotor on a rooftop antenna (or 2 antennas with a combiner). If you are unable to go rooftop then you might want to invest in a better indoor antenna such as the Zenith Silver Sensor and just accept the fact that you will need to rotate it. You will want to put this antenna up as high as you can (tall bookcase, second floor?). If you are able to do something outside/rooftop then get a Radio Shack 15-2160 to do some experiments. It is rather directional and will not be able to get all three major tower locations without rotating it.

The major difference between December and now is the amount of tree foliage. So that may be why 13 has disappeared. Secondly, the antenna you have is the bottom of the barrel as antennas go. The loop used for UHF is very non-directional and very low gain (may be fine for QA towers but nothing else). Third, your location means you need to receive signals from several different directions. This is usually handled by using a rotor on a rooftop antenna (or 2 antennas with a combiner). If you are unable to go rooftop then you might want to invest in a better indoor antenna such as the Zenith Silver Sensor and just accept the fact that you will need to rotate it. You will want to put this antenna up as high as you can (tall bookcase, second floor?). If you are able to do something outside/rooftop then get a Radio Shack 15-2160 to do some experiments. It is rather directional and will not be able to get all three major tower locations without rotating it.

Would you say a silver sensor is just as good as mounting a real (aka Channelmaster) antenna in the attic? My wife nixed the eyesore on the roof or back of the house, so I have to go attic-mount.

BoB

Would you say a silver sensor is just as good as mounting a real (aka Channelmaster) antenna in the attic? My wife nixed the eyesore on the roof or back of the house, so I have to go attic-mount.

BoB

That is hard to say. The Silver Sensor IS a real antenna and works quite well in some situations. Whether it is equal, better or worse than say a CM 4221 is very dependent on the particular location. Each antenna responds differently so you won't know for sure which is better without doing an A-B comparison in the same location. If it were me I'd try the CM 4221 because it has a better track record in a wide variety of situations. It also has a wider beamwidth than the SS if you're in need of covering a wide spread of angles (up to almost 90 degrees sometimes). How do you plan to handle the 150 degree spread you have? Two antennas? rotor? run up to the attic? If you want 9,11,22 you will need to address that issue.

That is hard to say. The Silver Sensor IS a real antenna and works quite well in some situations. Whether it is equal, better or worse than say a CM 4221 is very dependent on the particular location. Each antenna responds differently so you won't know for sure which is better without doing an A-B comparison in the same location. If it were me I'd try the CM 4221 because it has a better track record in a wide variety of situations. It also has a wider beamwidth than the SS if you're in need of covering a wide spread of angles (up to almost 90 degrees sometimes). How do you plan to handle the 150 degree spread you have? Two antennas? rotor? run up to the attic? If you want 9,11,22 you will need to address that issue.

I don't see a 150deg spread. Note that I am in Redmond; the OP was in QA. From antennaweb:


*yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 236° 14.9 48
*yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 236° 15.1 39
*yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 229° 13.4 25
*yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 236° 15.0 38
*yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 UPN TACOMA WA 229° 13.4 36
*yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 236° 14.9 31
*yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 236° 36.9 18
*yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 229° 13.4 41
yellow - vhf KING 5 NBC SEATTLE WA 236° 14.9 5
yellow - vhf KIRO 7 CBS SEATTLE WA 236° 15.1 7
yellow - uhf KMYQ 22 WB SEATTLE WA 229° 13.4 22
yellow - vhf KOMO 4 ABC SEATTLE WA 236° 15.0 4
yellow - vhf KSTW 11 UPN TACOMA WA 229° 13.4 11
yellow - uhf KONG 16 IND EVERETT WA 236° 14.9 16
yellow - vhf KCTS 9 PBS SEATTLE WA 229° 13.4 9
green - vhf KCPQ 13 FOX TACOMA WA 236° 36.9 13


I'm guessing everything comes from QA. It looks like 7deg to me. I was thinking a 3016 would be good to get VHF and UHF from those angles. Am I missing something?

BoB

I don't see a 150deg spread. Note that I am in Redmond; the OP was in QA. From antennaweb:



I'm guessing everything comes from QA. It looks like 7deg to me. I was thinking a 3016 would be good to get VHF and UHF from those angles. Am I missing something?

BoB

KING, KOMO, KIRO and KONG are on Queen Anne
KCTS, KSTW and KMYQ are on Capitol Hill
KCPQ is on Gold Mountain near Bremerton

Location makes quite a difference. I am on Bainbridge Island and KCPQ is in the opposite direction from the rest.

From Redmond the angles are pretty close, so the 3016 should be a good choice.

Hi- i'm new here from the auburn area and am just discovering the wonderful world of how to get OTA HD broadcasts. We bought a 48" JVC HD ready tv last dec and would like to take advantage of HD programming. we don't have cable and i was just telling my husband the other day that i wished we could just get the local channels in HD without having to buy a service. i was glad to find out that might be a possiblility.

my question is i'm confused about where to find a HD tuner. are they being phased out so much that you can't find them in a local store and need to find them online? we've checked around at our local Best Buy and i heard there was a possiblity of walmart carrying one but can't find it. i am hoping to not spend a ton of money so can i find one without a DVR for under $200? if you have recomendations on brands that seem to work well or not work well i'm all ears.

we already have a channel master digital ready antenna set up on top of the house that captures our analog signal. i tried to find the model number on the instructions i have but can't, so i dont' know if it's one that's recommended. it was only $35 from Lowes. it sounds like antenna's can be make or break signal reception.

do we need a rotator as well? it sounds like from what i've read if you can get the antenna positioned right, it should pick up a variety of channels?

i welcome any input,
Anne-Marie

ETA that i did a bit of research and it looks like a few good option might be the Zenith Sat 520 or the LG LST 3510A. anything else i should be considering and which would you prefer. i like that the LG has a DVD player. currently we are using the Xbox which doens't like to play every type of DVD. what is your opinion of the Samsung SIR T451? sounds like maybe i should stay away from it? maybe i should be posting this in the hardware section- but i'll still take any comments. thanks

I don't see a 150deg spread. Note that I am in Redmond; the OP was in QA. From antennaweb:



I'm guessing everything comes from QA. It looks like 7deg to me. I was thinking a 3016 would be good to get VHF and UHF from those angles. Am I missing something?

BoB
Ooops. My brain was still working on another member's location when I wrote that (must be the heat). You're correct about the narrow spread. That means you can go with a higher gain narrow beam antenna if you want. That will help to overcome the losses from being in an attic. Depending on the roof material it can be substantial. If you want VHF for analog channels then the 3016 is a decent compromise. It has the small yagi front end for UHF (close to a RS 15-2160 design). It is more directional than the 4221 bowtie design which also helps. If you don't want to hassle with internet ordering & shipping you can try a Radio Shack 15-2151 or 15-2152 (similar to 3016). Easy to return if they don't work for you.

Anne-Marie
Welcome to the Seattle OTA forum. You sound like you have been doing your homework. Yes it appears that OTA receivers are disappearing rapidly. Circuit City shows only two on their site. BestBuy, Walmart, RadioShack and many more have phased them out. ebay might be your best bet. LG are good units and Samsung are OK (I have an SIR-T150 that still works great). If you can't find the antenna model # can you describe the design? Or better yet, go the the RadioShack site and see if it looks like any of theirs. If not, try the Channel Master site: http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm
Doubt you will need a rotor since you are pretty far from the major towers. Post your nearest cross streets so I can check your location. Don't hesitate to ask more questions - that's what we're here for. Good luck!
Larry

ok, so i did a bit of research on the antenna. even climbed up on the roof to see if it had a model number but if it did i couldn't see it. i checked on lowes site and found one that i think it is, the Channel Master 3016 which the picture looks like what we have.

i am leaning most towards the LG 3510a so i guess i just need to get the unit and then see how it works

cross streets are A St SE and 12th ST SE in Auburn.

thanks for any help, i'm sure i'll have lots of questions once we get the hardware and give it a try.

:)
Anne-Marie

Ooops. My brain was still working on another member's location when I wrote that (must be the heat). You're correct about the narrow spread. That means you can go with a higher gain narrow beam antenna if you want. That will help to overcome the losses from being in an attic. Depending on the roof material it can be substantial. If you want VHF for analog channels then the 3016 is a decent compromise. It has the small yagi front end for UHF (close to a RS 15-2160 design). It is more directional than the 4221 bowtie design which also helps. If you don't want to hassle with internet ordering & shipping you can try a Radio Shack 15-2151 or 15-2152 (similar to 3016). Easy to return if they don't work for you.

Is there a VHF/UHF combo that you'd recommend more?

Thanks,
BoB

Is there a VHF/UHF combo that you'd recommend more?

Thanks,
BoB
There are lots of them out there but it's hard to say which is the hands-down winner. The Radio Shack units seem to get high marks by members in the antenna thread. You might post there to see if there is a consensus on what is the best. We in the OTA digital threads deal mostly with UHF-only units so there is not a lot of chatter about combo units.

ok, so i did a bit of research on the antenna. even climbed up on the roof to see if it had a model number but if it did i couldn't see it. i checked on lowes site and found one that i think it is, the Channel Master 3016 which the picture looks like what we have.

i am leaning most towards the LG 3510a so i guess i just need to get the unit and then see how it works

cross streets are A St SE and 12th ST SE in Auburn.

thanks for any help, i'm sure i'll have lots of questions once we get the hardware and give it a try.

:)
Anne-Marie

CM 3016 + LG3510a should be a nice combination. There are some real bargains on the internet if you hunt.

Your location looks like it should be OK since you have a rooftop antenna. The major towers are within a 30-degree spread so I doubt you will need a rotor. Your aim should be due NNW to start, then adjust more westerly if you lose CH 13. If you go too far west you will lose 9,11,22. Keep us posted.

I see that the KIRO-DT broadcast of the hydro races is 16x9, but it does not look like HD to me, perhaps 16x9 480i?

Still, a step up from plain old 4x3 480i.

I see that the KIRO-DT broadcast of the hydro races is 16x9, but it does not look like HD to me, perhaps 16x9 480i?

Still, a step up from plain old 4x3 480i.

I doubt that they*have enough 1080i equipment to provide HD from as many cameras as they seem to have for this, although I thought the Blue Angles looked a bit sharper than some of the views of the hydroplanes. I agree, even at 480i, 16x9 is a big improvement.

I checked it out on my Mac and EyeTV500 receiver. The software will display information about the video stream and it said 1920x1080. I suspect that they upconverted from 480, which won't improve the resolution. Does KIRO even have any HD cameras? KING and KOMO at least use HD in the studios.

Larry,

Could you check for OTA possibility around SE 282nd Street and 144th Ave SE in Kent? I am trying to convert a guy from work and Antennaweb confuses me a little with Yellow for Capitol Hill but Red and Blue for Queen Ann.

Thanks,
Luong

Larry,

Could you check for OTA possibility around SE 282nd Street and 144th Ave SE in Kent? I am trying to convert a guy from work and Antennaweb confuses me a little with Yellow for Capitol Hill but Red and Blue for Queen Ann.

Thanks,
Luong
Luong - no hills to worry about. Antennaweb is not very useful for digital reception except for the headings to each tower. A CM4221 or RS 15-2160 should work well there unless there are trees/buildings in the way. Aim NNW and you should get all the majors. Good luck!

Larry

Luong - no hills to worry about. Antennaweb is not very useful for digital reception except for the headings to each tower. A CM4221 or RS 15-2160 should work well there unless there are trees/buildings in the way. Aim NNW and you should get all the majors. Good luck!

Larry
NW looks clear to me, he should be ok then. Thanks.

NW looks clear to me, he should be ok then. Thanks.

tuquet
Use the 4221. The 15-2160 doesn't have enough to work out there.
Have 3 sites working with in about 6 blocks of him, all channels. Surprisingly, it can get a little fussy on some QA Hill ch's, even though it looks good out there, topo wise. I think it's because the path cuts right across the tall buildings in downtown Seattle. He may have to try a few different spots. About 90% of the time, they all come in fine.
Dan

tuquet
Use the 4221. The 15-2160 doesn't have enough to work out there.
Have 3 sites working with in about 6 blocks of him, all channels. Surprisingly, it can get a little fussy on some QA Hill ch's, even though it looks good out there, topo wise. I think it's because the path cuts right across the tall buildings in downtown Seattle. He may have to try a few different spots. About 90% of the time, they all come in fine.
Dan
Ah, the buildings! Thanks Dan for the insight.

Hi All,

My wife and I just recently moved from Dallas to Seattle and will soon be moving to our new townhome at 8552 Midvale Ave N (Just a little bit north and east of Aurora Ave N and 85th St, I guess). It sounds like Seattle can be a pretty complex place to get good OTA reception, so I was wondering if all the experts on this thread could give any thoughts on what the prospects were like for OTA reception from that address. Is there any possibility an indoor antenna would work from there, or is rooftop the only realistic option?

Thanks so much,

Mark

I doubt that they*have enough 1080i equipment to provide HD from as many cameras as they seem to have for this, although I thought the Blue Angles looked a bit sharper than some of the views of the hydroplanes. I agree, even at 480i, 16x9 is a big improvement.

I checked it out on my Mac and EyeTV500 receiver. The software will display information about the video stream and it said 1920x1080. I suspect that they upconverted from 480, which won't improve the resolution. Does KIRO even have any HD cameras? KING and KOMO at least use HD in the studios.
I agree, it had to be 480i widescreen source upconverted to 1080i for broadcast.

I have been watching HDTV for 6 years in Seattle and I can't recall ever seeing any HD local origination programming from KIRO-DT. But their CBS HD programs are among the best IMHO in video and audio quality.

Hi guys! I just moved to the Magnolia-Ft. Lawton area, at 4621 34th Ave W. I'm picking up 3 OTA HD signals intermittently with my Zenith indoor antenna, but crave more. Any advice on antenna placement/direction from where I'm at? It seems that I'm on a pretty direct line to the Queen Anne/Cap Hill antennae - but what do I do for the Bremerton station?

I agree, it had to be 480i widescreen source upconverted to 1080i for broadcast.

I have been watching HDTV for 6 years in Seattle and I can't recall ever seeing any HD local origination programming from KIRO-DT. But their CBS HD programs are among the best IMHO in video and audio quality.

I agree. I've been pretty happy with most of the locals' HD broadcasts (I've only had the HD set for a month), although last night on KCTS-HD the picture suddenly started freezing pretty badly during the Crossroads Guitar Festival. Normally I would suspect signal strength issues, but that channel has previously been pretty flawless. Possibly they had technical problems at the station.

KCTS-DT has too many subchannels competing for bandwidth. They are notorious for macroblocking, pixelation and even breakup's at times during high activity scenes or large scale transitions. They also do not yet have the means of getting PBS HDTV broadcasts to us with the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio coming in to them.

In their defense, they entered the HDTV game very early and thus have some equipment that predates the flexibility and cost efficiency available to more recent entrants.

My frustation with KCTS-HD is that the DirecTV Advanced Program Guide is often incorrect with their times and program listings. I have notified KCTS and Zap2It.com (the source of the DirecTV guide info) several times but I have yet to see a permanent fix to this nagging problem. For example, in the last several months, I have not been able to get an actual episode of Austin City Limits from my TiVo Season Pass for the program on KCTS-HD. Other programs are recorded in the time slot that the DirecTV guide shows for Austin City Limits.

This is all still pretty new, and there are still many bugs and deficiencies being worked on every day.

Hi All,

My wife and I just recently moved from Dallas to Seattle and will soon be moving to our new townhome at 8552 Midvale Ave N (Just a little bit north and east of Aurora Ave N and 85th St, I guess). It sounds like Seattle can be a pretty complex place to get good OTA reception, so I was wondering if all the experts on this thread could give any thoughts on what the prospects were like for OTA reception from that address. Is there any possibility an indoor antenna would work from there, or is rooftop the only realistic option?

Thanks so much,

Mark

Mark
An indoor might work for some channels, but it's going to be fussy. An outdoor 4221 would work great. Doesn't have to be on the rooftop, just where it can see from SWest to SEast.
Dan

Hi guys! I just moved to the Magnolia-Ft. Lawton area, at 4621 34th Ave W. I'm picking up 3 OTA HD signals intermittently with my Zenith indoor antenna, but crave more. Any advice on antenna placement/direction from where I'm at? It seems that I'm on a pretty direct line to the Queen Anne/Cap Hill antennae - but what do I do for the Bremerton station?

darth_flannel
Reception is kind of fussy there. I have several installs a few blocks from you. Ch13 is tough, the park is in the way. CH4 is near the dredded dead zone, too.
You really need to get the antenna outdoors. Moving it around to different locations will help, too, for that sweet spot.
Dan

KCTS-DT has too many subchannels competing for bandwidth. They are notorious for macroblocking, pixelation and even breakup's at times during high activity scenes or large scale transitions. They also do not yet have the means of getting PBS HDTV broadcasts to us with the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio coming in to them.

In their defense, they entered the HDTV game very early and thus have some equipment that predates the flexibility and cost efficiency available to more recent entrants.

My frustation with KCTS-HD is that the DirecTV Advanced Program Guide is often incorrect with their times and program listings. I have notified KCTS and Zap2It.com (the source of the DirecTV guide info) several times but I have yet to see a permanent fix to this nagging problem. For example, in the last several months, I have not been able to get an actual episode of Austin City Limits from my TiVo Season Pass for the program on KCTS-HD. Other programs are recorded in the time slot that the DirecTV guide shows for Austin City Limits.

This is all still pretty new, and there are still many bugs and deficiencies being worked on every day.

I agree about the guide. I don't have a HD DVR yet, but occasionally record things on my Mac using EyeTV. That uses TitanTV for its guide and the errors are there also.

KBTC's guide information is also incorrect at times. I wonder if it's a PBS thing.

DirecTV can't even get the guide information for KING-HD via the satellite correct (it shows "King 5 Weather Plus"). The guide is correct for 5-1 OTA , at least.

I agree. I've been pretty happy with most of the locals' HD broadcasts (I've only had the HD set for a month), although last night on KCTS-HD the picture suddenly started freezing pretty badly during the Crossroads Guitar Festival. Normally I would suspect signal strength issues, but that channel has previously been pretty flawless. Possibly they had technical problems at the station.

I think KCTS must've been having problems with their broadcast last night. Stutters were showing up early in the evening, and didn't seem to leave for at least an hour or two.

I am hopeful, as well, that KCTS can upgrade their system and devote more bandwidth to their HD Channel. They really need it.

But... I must say, KCTS HD has some of the best programming of all of the channels out there in TV land.

Mark
An indoor might work for some channels, but it's going to be fussy. An outdoor 4221 would work great. Doesn't have to be on the rooftop, just where it can see from SWest to SEast.
Dan

Dan,

Thanks so much for the reply. I took a look at the Channel Master 4221 and it's very different from the type of antenna we had installed in Dallas - I think it was something like the CM 3018 (we had it in our attic there). I was wondering if you could elaborate at all on what you mean by "doesn't have to be on the rooftop, just where it can see from SWest to SEast" (sorry, I'm so ignorant of most of these things!). Do you mean it just needs to be on the south side of the building, clear of everything, or does it just need to be pointed to the South, even if there is a bit of the building in the way?

Thanks so much,

Mark

KCTS-DT has too many subchannels competing for bandwidth. They are notorious for macroblocking, pixelation and even breakup's at times during high activity scenes or large scale transitions.

They always have this problem, I have told them but they don't think there is a problem. They also love keeping their huge logo.

Dan,

Thanks so much for the reply. I took a look at the Channel Master 4221 and it's very different from the type of antenna we had installed in Dallas - I think it was something like the CM 3018 (we had it in our attic there). I was wondering if you could elaborate at all on what you mean by "doesn't have to be on the rooftop, just where it can see from SWest to SEast" (sorry, I'm so ignorant of most of these things!). Do you mean it just needs to be on the south side of the building, clear of everything, or does it just need to be pointed to the South, even if there is a bit of the building in the way?

Thanks so much,

Mark

Mark
It needs to be pointed south, sort of. It has a very wide angle of reception, and you're going for 3 directions, southeast, south and southwest. You also have the hill near Woodland park in the way, partially, for FOX (ch13, southwest) and the major networks to the south. If you can find a spot on the side of the house that has a clear view in those directions, if possible. Obviously, if there's no clear view, then try to minimize the obstructions. And keep a foot or so below any overhanging eaves. You should try a few locations to get the best results, and turn it a little, one way or the other.
Dan

Mark
It needs to be pointed south, sort of. It has a very wide angle of reception, and you're going for 3 directions, southeast, south and southwest. You also have the hill near Woodland park in the way, partially, for FOX (ch13, southwest) and the major networks to the south. If you can find a spot on the side of the house that has a clear view in those directions, if possible. Obviously, if there's no clear view, then try to minimize the obstructions. And keep a foot or so below any overhanging eaves. You should try a few locations to get the best results, and turn it a little, one way or the other.
Dan

Dan,

Thanks so much for the reply. We're moving into the town home in a month or so, so I'm sure I'll be back at that point with more questions, cries for help, etc.!!

Cheers,

Mark

I guess the 'Hawks game tonight on KING is going to be 4:3 SD right? :(

I guess the 'Hawks game tonight on KING is going to be 4:3 SD right? :(
Looks like that. It's not marked as HD on King's web site.

Hello

can any one let me know what my chances are of geting a OTA DTV singal

My address is:

26105 162nd ave E
Orting, WA 98360

acording to antennaweb I cant getting any singal out of seattle but i was hoping there may still be a chance!!! I am at the foot a pretty good hill so i am sure i might as well give up.

I am new to this so pleas help or advice on antennas would help

thanks

Looks like that. It's not marked as HD on King's web site.

Man its looks crappy, Its gonna be hard to watch... :(

Hello

can any one let me know what my chances are of geting a OTA DTV singal

My address is:

26105 162nd ave E
Orting, WA 98360

acording to antennaweb I cant getting any singal out of seattle but i was hoping there may still be a chance!!! I am at the foot a pretty good hill so i am sure i might as well give up.

I am new to this so pleas help or advice on antennas would help

thanks
You are right about the hill. On my topo map it is a total buzz-kill for OTA. Check out a dish or cable if available in your area.

You are right about the hill. On my topo map it is a total buzz-kill for OTA. Check out a dish or cable if available in your area.


thats what i though. i am just trying to get somethin free. In this dayand age that is a rare thing to get somthin free

thanks

Man its looks crappy, Its gonna be hard to watch... :(

ICH!!!!!!!!!!!

We are so spoiled that this is a form of "blackout" for us. At least most of the rest of the games will be HD I hope.

ICH!!!!!!!!!!!

We are so spoiled that this is a form of "blackout" for us. At least most of the rest of the games will be HD I hope.

Virtually all the regular season games will be in HD. This King broadcast looks particularly bad, with lots of compression artifacts, mosquito noise, around edges. You can't sit close to your TV, like you can with HD. The analog version might even look better than the digital version, so you might try that.

I have to correct my previous post. The OTA signal looked fairly good, even for SD. What was bad was the Comcast pickup of the same digital channel. This was totally evident the next night for Sunday night football on NBC in HD. OTA looked much better than the Comcast HD version, which was prone to pixelizing and mosquito noise around edges. I hope Comcast doesn't start messing with the HD signal they get from the locals.

we arrived home from being gone for a long weekend to find our HD reciever the LG LST3510a had arrived. we hooked it up to the existing antenna and we were watching OTA with no problems. had all the channels we wanted and didn't seem to have a problem with 7 or 13 which were our problem ones with analog.

so i've been doing some more reading on this site and am concerned as to if we have proper grounding in place for the antenna. i asked my husband and kind of got an evasive answer even though when we put it up last year i thought we talked about him grounding it. is there anywhere on this site that would give clear directions on what we need to do to make sure it's grounded right? i don't want to put all the AV equipment, let alone our house at risk.

currently the antenna is on a pole that is attached to the side of the house that runs into the ground. the cable runs into the house through the attic and into our living room. my husband was thinking that the pole the antenna is attached to would be the quickest route down to the ground and would be sufficient and i think we might need another separate grounding wire that runs to a grounding pole and perhaps the static diffusing thing (can't remeber the name) that is attached when the cable enters the house, but i don't know or understand how it all works exactly? does that make any sense? any thoughts?

thanks,
Anne-Marie

Is anyone having trouble getting KMYQ's digital signal? I'm near the top of the hill in Wallingford and can see the Queen Anne and Capital Hill towers from my house. I get all the other analog and digital stations to one degree or another. KMYQ's analog station on 22 comes in perfectly. But the digital KMYQ on 25 has a very low signal level and isn't watchable. It seems strange that I would get the other digital stations from Queen Anne, KCTS and KSTW, just fine, when the FCC says they are broadcasting with less power than KMYQ.

we arrived home from being gone for a long weekend to find our HD reciever the LG LST3510a had arrived. we hooked it up to the existing antenna and we were watching OTA with no problems. had all the channels we wanted and didn't seem to have a problem with 7 or 13 which were our problem ones with analog.

so i've been doing some more reading on this site and am concerned as to if we have proper grounding in place for the antenna. i asked my husband and kind of got an evasive answer even though when we put it up last year i thought we talked about him grounding it. is there anywhere on this site that would give clear directions on what we need to do to make sure it's grounded right? i don't want to put all the AV equipment, let alone our house at risk.

currently the antenna is on a pole that is attached to the side of the house that runs into the ground. the cable runs into the house through the attic and into our living room. my husband was thinking that the pole the antenna is attached to would be the quickest route down to the ground and would be sufficient and i think we might need another separate grounding wire that runs to a grounding pole and perhaps the static diffusing thing (can't remeber the name) that is attached when the cable enters the house, but i don't know or understand how it all works exactly? does that make any sense? any thoughts?

thanks,
Anne-Marie

Anne-Marie
The pole will most likely be fine for grounding the metal part of the antenna.
What isn't grounded, though, is the actual part of the antenna that picks up the signal. The same parts that the balun and cable are connected to. The fix is easy.
Pick up a ground block

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2150592&cp=2032057&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032057&categoryId=2032057&kwCatId=2032057&kw=ground+block&parentPage=search

and insert it in the cable from the antenna, just before it enters the house. Since it enters high on the side of the house, run a #10 copper wire from the ground block down the side to a ground rod

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103057&cp=2032057

set in next to the pole. While you're at it, run a ground clamp around the antenna pole and ground it to the same rod. That should take of both. You can get 1-1/2" clamps at Home Depot or good hardware store. Same kind they use for AC electrical grounding on water pipes.

Dan

I've been lurking and reading all the posts and I'm still in need of some help/advice. My setup is a DirecTV HR10-250.

I have pulled up the information for my address/zip on www.antennaweb.org and here are the results...

* yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 216° 35.2 18
* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 181° 16.4 41
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 181° 16.5 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 UPN TACOMA WA 181° 16.5 36
* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 i BELLEVUE WA 137° 25.2
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 16.2 48
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 190° 16.3 39
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 189° 16.3 38
* blue - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 189° 16.2 31
* blue - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 215° 34.7 14

I have tried several indoor HDTV antennas and I have mixed results, the two I tried from radio shack (DA-5200, 15-1892) both let me pick up some channels, but neither of them allowed me to have the antenna in one location and the ability to get all the channels.

After returning both of these antennas, I am now using the Terk Indoor Amplified HDTV Antenna (HDTVA) from Best Buy which is giving me better results than the previous antennas, but I am still only able to get a couple stations at a given direction.

I am primarly trying to get KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW and KCPQ. They are all pretty close together (181° - 190°) with KCPQ being the exception at 216° and twice as far away.

I do not want to install a giant antenna on my roof (my neighborhood rules wouldn't allow it anyway) and I don't have attic space to put an antenna either.

Is there a recommendation for a small outdoor antenna that could be mounted on the side of my house (near my DirecTV 3-lnb dish) to help me get all the local HD stations?

My zip code is 98012 and I'm in north Bothell near the corner of 35th Ave SE and 180th St SE. If you'd like to use an address, try 3431 180 St S.E., Bothell, WA 98012.

Thanks,
Eric

The FCC's OTARD rule will allow you to put whatever size antenna is required on your roof, irrespective of CC&Rs. However, I suspect that one of the ChannelMaster or Winegard 4-element (plus reflector screen) antennas would do the trick if you have a fairly clear path to the southwest. At least the angles are fairly close. I had to try several locations on my roof to get a decent signal from KOMO--digital can be tricky (I can't get KCPQ at all from the east side of Bainbridge Island).

Eric - as rdn said, a 4-bay bowtie like the Channel Master 4221(3021) should do the trick. It is a vertically "flat" design that lends itself to mounting on the side or corner of your house.

Is there a local store in the Seattle/Lynnwood area where I can buy the Channel Master 4221(3021)? I looked at Lowes at Alderwood and Silver Lake and neither had it.

Thanks.

I also have a further question. Once I get an OTA antenna working and receiving all the channels I want, I'll then need to integrate it to my current multiswitch (which has an antenna input) so I can distribute this to multiple DirecTV HR10-250 receivers in the house.

Will I need some in-line power or amplifiers to make this happen. Is there a preferred brand of diplexer I should be looking for?

Thanks in advance,
Eric

FWIW, did anyone notice they moved the HD from the -1 sub channel to -3 sub channel about 5:30 this evening? Had about a dozen calls from customers with programmed remotes saying there was nothing there, but signal strength said there was! I was doing an install and noticed it, too. If you entered 48-3, it would tune right in. They moved the -2 weather channel to -4. One of my customers called them and they said all was normal. Right. I called but they had closed the offices. Got home tonight and noticed they're back to regular channels.

Had nightmares of having to run around re-programming Pronto's for weeks on end!
Dan

The FCC's OTARD rule will allow you to put whatever size antenna is required on your roof, irrespective of CC&Rs. However, I suspect that one of the ChannelMaster or Winegard 4-element (plus reflector screen) antennas would do the trick if you have a fairly clear path to the southwest. At least the angles are fairly close. I had to try several locations on my roof to get a decent signal from KOMO--digital can be tricky (I can't get KCPQ at all from the east side of Bainbridge Island).


rdn
Just to clarify for others, the FCC's rules, overriding CC&R's, state that the antenna can be any size for over air TV reception (VHF/UHF, channels 2-69) and up to 12ft above the roof. Beyond that height it gets gray on the interpretation. Also, satellite dishes are limited to one meter, about 40". It gets gray, too, when your condo's roof is shared. For all other situations, though, you're covered. I've had many try to stop me while doing an install, and once they see the rules, they realize it's all legal. Never had to remove one.
Dan

I also have a further question. Once I get an OTA antenna working and receiving all the channels I want, I'll then need to integrate it to my current multiswitch (which has an antenna input) so I can distribute this to multiple DirecTV HR10-250 receivers in the house.

Will I need some in-line power or amplifiers to make this happen. Is there a preferred brand of diplexer I should be looking for?

Thanks in advance,
Eric

Eric
Your switch may have an amplifier in it. Just hook it up and try it. For aiming and testing, though, run the antenna lead in separate, or use the satellite run to your receiver, temporarily. If you do need an amplifier, use a preamp. The power supply for it needs to be before the antenna input of the switch.
The 4221 antenna can be ordered from Stark
http://www.starkelectronic.com/uhf.htm
They call it a CM 3021, same thing.
Dan

I noticed in the KCTS monthly newsletter yesterday that the 9.5 HD channel will be 24/7 starting in October. Now they start it at 3 pm and remove the kids channel at that time. I wonder if they are trying to cram too much into the channel.

I hope KCTS-HD can somehow clean up their program guide listings with Zap2it.com and DirecTV so my HD TiVo recordings come out right. Right now it is hit or miss on getting the program I want because of guide errors.

Hi - this is my first post on this forum which is an incredible wealth of information. I think my wife is getting tired of me being on the internet reading all this stuff! Anyway, I have just plunged into the world of HDTV and have a couple of questions. I have just ordered an upgrade to HD Directv service which will be out this Saturday, but wanted to know about my OTA reception in Woodinville. I am at the junction of 226th Ave NE and NE 166th St in Woodinville - this is way east of Woodinville and closer probably to Duvall. The development I am in is quite high on a hill, but does have a fair number of trees in the neighborhood. So my questions are these...
1. Is it possible to get away with an attic mounted antenna in this location and get channel 13? Or do I really need to have an outdoor mounted antenna. I would prefer to keep things as aesthetically pleasing as possible, to keep the neighbors happy.
If I can get away with an attic antenna (cedar shake roof), what models are recommended? If I need an outdoor antenna, would a different one be recommended?
Here is some info on the stations from my location...
Channel Distance Direction Zone
__4_______16_______222*__Yellow
__5_______16_______222*__Yellow
__7_______16_______223*__Yellow
__9_______16_______215*__Yellow
__11______15_______215*___Red
__13______38_______231*__Green

Do I need directional antenna or a non directional antenna based on these findings?
Do I need an amplifier?
Do I need to ground the antenna?
Sorry for all the questions!!!
Any help is appreciated!!

Howard.

I hope KCTS-HD can somehow clean up their program guide listings with Zap2it.com and DirecTV so my HD TiVo recordings come out right. Right now it is hit or miss on getting the program I want because of guide errors.

Yeah, that is a pain. I also have a EyeTV 500 which plugs into my Mac with firewire. They use TitanTV and it has the same problem.

Hopefully DirecTV will also be able to straighten out the guide info for KING-HD (via satellite). Right now it says it is King 5 Weather Plus (fortunately they have it right for OTA).

Hi - this is my first post on this forum which is an incredible wealth of information. I think my wife is getting tired of me being on the internet reading all this stuff! Anyway, I have just plunged into the world of HDTV and have a couple of questions. I have just ordered an upgrade to HD Directv service which will be out this Saturday, but wanted to know about my OTA reception in Woodinville. I am at the junction of 226th Ave NE and NE 166th St in Woodinville - this is way east of Woodinville and closer probably to Duvall. The development I am in is quite high on a hill, but does have a fair number of trees in the neighborhood. So my questions are these...
1. Is it possible to get away with an attic mounted antenna in this location and get channel 13? Or do I really need to have an outdoor mounted antenna. I would prefer to keep things as aesthetically pleasing as possible, to keep the neighbors happy.
If I can get away with an attic antenna (cedar shake roof), what models are recommended? If I need an outdoor antenna, would a different one be recommended?
Here is some info on the stations from my location...
Channel Distance Direction Zone
__4_______16_______222*__Yellow
__5_______16_______222*__Yellow
__7_______16_______223*__Yellow
__9_______16_______215*__Yellow
__11______15_______215*___Red
__13______38_______231*__Green

Do I need directional antenna or a non directional antenna based on these findings?
Do I need an amplifier?
Do I need to ground the antenna?
Sorry for all the questions!!!
Any help is appreciated!!

Howard.

Howard
You're in a pretty good spot. Trees can make things fussy, but you should have a decent shot at it. Attics can be tricky. Add in your distance, and surrounding trees, and it can drive you nuts!
Outside is best. There are ways of mounting it to the side of the house that can keep everyone happy. A good signal without an amp is always better than a weak signal from inside, amplified. Directional is best, but they are usually yagi style, meaning long. Hard to mount in hidden spots. The 4221 could do it, and give you enough clean signal.
All these are suggestions. What could work and what will work is the big question only testing and trying will answer.
Dan

Thanks for the reply Dan.

Given the angles that I have to the stations, will a directional antenna work fine (215* to 231*)?

I actually have a large steep roof with tons of attic space. If I put it in the attic, it will be higher than any other location I could put it, short of mounting it on a chimney. This would also get it high enough to clear most of the trees in the neighborhood.

If I mount it to the side of the house, it won't clear the trees and after a quick drive around the neighborhood, I didn't see a single antenna!

Like you said, its trial and error. Its either high in an attic (preferred), or outside but with trees in the way (and probably not kosher with the neighbors)

Do you have a recommendation for a directional antenna for this situation.
I have looked at the CM 4221 as you mentioned. I think I could fit a 4228. Also looked at a 4248 Yagi style.

Aarghh - too many choices/decisions!!!

Thanks for your help!!

Howard.

Also the folks at solidsignal*com recommended either a DB4 for the attic, or a lacrosse mounted outside which might be more aesthetically acceptable for the neighbors.

OK - update!! I had read some suggestions about getting a Rat Shack antenna to see what sort of reception I was getting and then get something better or bag it altogether. Well, today I went and got a 15-1260 for $25 and a 300-75 ohm transformer for $7. I get all sorts of grief from the twit behind the counter with such gems as 90% signal loss in attic mounts, and my coaxial cable is far too old and I need to get this that and the other.
Well, I hook up some cable I have lying around to the TV, and run it up to the attic. Hook up the antenna and prop it up pointing in hopefully the right direction, and lo and behold, I am getting 97-98% signal strength on 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 22. Some of the higher channels are around 30%, but these are the religious/shopping channels and the antenna is probably aimed right.
I was totally blown away - Kansas City vs the Giants is on right now in HD on channel 13!! I am one happy camper!

Howard

OK - update!! I had read some suggestions about getting a Rat Shack antenna to see what sort of reception I was getting and then get something better or bag it altogether. Well, today I went and got a 15-1260 for $25 and a 300-75 ohm transformer for $7. I get all sorts of grief from the twit behind the counter with such gems as 90% signal loss in attic mounts, and my coaxial cable is far too old and I need to get this that and the other.
Well, I hook up some cable I have lying around to the TV, and run it up to the attic. Hook up the antenna and prop it up pointing in hopefully the right direction, and lo and behold, I am getting 97-98% signal strength on 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 22. Some of the higher channels are around 30%, but these are the religious/shopping channels and the antenna is probably aimed right.
I was totally blown away - Kansas City vs the Giants is on right now in HD on channel 13!! I am one happy camper!

Howard
Howard - great work! Never trust RS twits. I used a 15-2160 last summer to pick up Spokane at 116 miles (we were on a hill near Wenatchee). Great little antenna.

Another newbie. Has anyone tried anything near 235th Ct and NE 27(summer ridge) in sammamish area? Just looking for some nods on whether it is worthwhile to get my hands dirty on OTA HDTV. Appreciate any help.

Thx, Ravi.

Just to give everyone my experience so far.

I'm in North Bothell/Mill Creek area and I've tried the Radio Shack 15-2160, Terk HDTVs and the Silver Sensor.

Silver Sensor - I was able to recieve most of the HD channels, but I had to move it in order to get different ones.

Radio Shack 15-2160 - Did OK, but I couldn't get KOMO when KING & KIRO were coming in clear

Terk HDTVs - I am able to get KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW. KCPQ is not coming in at all and I am having trouble fine tuning the antenna to get reliable signals, especially for KIRO.

I have a Channel Master 4221 on order and I'm really hoping this will be the best of the batch. Not only is it the least expensive, but it seems to get the best reviews.

Couple questions. Any further recommendations for trying to get reliable signals from all the major networks - KOMO, KING, KIRO & KCPQ?

What about an inexpensive rotar for the antenna. I'm really tired of hiking up the latter to make a slight adjustment and then go to the TV to see the results. Any help/advice in the best way to fine-tune the signals would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Eric

Eric - there is, unfortunately, no magic bullet (or antenna) when it comes to digital OTA. For analog, any old signal will do and you just live with the ghosts & fuzz. For digital, ghosts and fuzz can cause the tuner to reject the whole mess. Analog ghosts are caused by reflected signals. These are one of the biggest enemies for digital and also why antenna placement plays such a big factor. Moving as little as 6 inches can make or break a channel. So it is a lot of trial and error, just as you are doing. To improve your chances you need good cable (RG6) and usually a directional antenna. The 4221 is less directional than some and that has two effects. It can pick up both CH 13 and CH 11 at a single orientation but its wide beamwidth also means it can pick up more reflections. But it is still worth a shot. Rotors are a common solution for having wide spread towers to contend with. In that case one could go with a more directional antenna like the CM 4248 or 4228. But your towers only cover about 30 degrees (Bremerton to Cap Hill). And most antennas can cover that with a single orientation. The fussy direction problems you have are probably due to reflections coming in at various angles. As you rotate the antenna you eliminate some off to one side.

Another newbie. Has anyone tried anything near 235th Ct and NE 27(summer ridge) in sammamish area? Just looking for some nods on whether it is worthwhile to get my hands dirty on OTA HDTV. Appreciate any help.

Thx, Ravi.

Ravi - you have a hill 1.5 miles to the west that is blocking your path to the major towers. I'd say go with cable or dish.