Originally posted by quarque
Lance,

You should have no problem. You're at the same altitude as QA hill and there is nothing in the way. I would use the CM 4228 since it seems to work for almost everyone and has more than enough range. I use one and I'm only 6 miles from QA - so no problem with overloads. Bearing is 207 degrees at 18.5 miles to QA. Aim 3 degrees east of that to cover CH towers as well. Good luck.

Excellent news, thank you so much for looking that up for me. I'm going to put the antenna in the attic, so I need to see if the CM4228 will fit in there. I was originally hoping that the CM4221 would work since it is less expensive and smaller, because I don't think the CM4228 will fit.

I'm also wondering if I could realistically pick up some the the Bellingham stations... Antennaweb.org seems to think it is a possibility, but I'd probably need the 4228 for them.

-Lance

Larry,

Thanks again for the helpful info. You own this thread!

Does anyone on this thread have an "in" to UPN engineering?? This is the only Seattle OTA that I can't receive. I was wondering what their current power output is, what their final power output is expected to be, and when is the power bump going to happen. I heard on another thread that UPN is supposed to start delivering HD material soon.

Darryl

I wonder if Larry (and the other gods of this thread) could help me figure out why I'm unable to receive OTA HD channels at my location? I've tried a CM 4221, and added a CM 7775 signal preamp, but still no luck.

I'm at the intersection of NE 46th St and NE 162nd Ave in Redmond (close to Marymoor park). I'm happy to buy a beer (or two :) for anyone on the thread who can help me get the OTA HD broadcasts working!

Originally posted by darmad2002
Does anyone on this thread have an "in" to UPN engineering?? This is the only Seattle OTA that I can't receive. I was wondering what their current power output is, what their final power output is expected to be, and when is the power bump going to happen. I heard on another thread that UPN is supposed to start delivering HD material soon.

Darryl

Darryl,
KSTW DT 36 is currently transmitting 68KW ERP from about 450 feet on our tower.
We just last week received an FCC construction permit to replace our top mount antenna with a combo CH11/CH36. We were held up for 9 months by the Canadian CRTC.
The antenna and tower modifications should be ordered soon. We are anticipating installation late next summer.
Our licensed full power for DT36 will be 850KW ERP. We should have one of the best NTSC and DTV signals in town when finished!

Dave Frank
KSTW TV Assistant Chief Engineer

Thanks for the info Dave. Do you think there will ever be an "incremental" increase in power before you actually go to the full 850KW ERP. Meaning, maybe in a couple of months push it up to 125KW and then 850 next summer ?? Just being hopeful.

Of course I can always have hope for UPN to have a digital HD channel on Comcast sometime before next summer. I currently get 0 signal OTA.

Thanks Darryl

Originally posted by sdossick
I wonder if Larry (and the other gods of this thread) could help me figure out why I'm unable to receive OTA HD channels at my location? I've tried a CM 4221, and added a CM 7775 signal preamp, but still no luck.

I'm at the intersection of NE 46th St and NE 162nd Ave in Redmond (close to Marymoor park). I'm happy to buy a beer (or two :) for anyone on the thread who can help me get the OTA HD broadcasts working!
I have come down from the topo mountain my son and the tablets indicate much darkness in your realm. Your elevation is about 200 feet and you have a 550 foot hill west of you that blocks the QA and CH towers. Sorry.

On a lighter note, I'm working on a script for a movie. The working title is "Dude, where's my signal".

Larry

Originally posted by darmad2002
Does anyone on this thread have an "in" to UPN engineering?? This is the only Seattle OTA that I can't receive. I was wondering what their current power output is, what their final power output is expected to be, and when is the power bump going to happen. I heard on another thread that UPN is supposed to start delivering HD material soon.

Darryl
Your problem may not be signal strength. You may be getting reflections or have something blocking that tower. Try moving your antenna as far as possible in each direction from its current location. What is your nearest intersection?

Originally posted by DaveFrank
Darryl,
KSTW DT 36 is currently transmitting 68KW ERP from about 450 feet on our tower.
We just last week received an FCC construction permit to replace our top mount antenna with a combo CH11/CH36. We were held up for 9 months by the Canadian CRTC.
The antenna and tower modifications should be ordered soon. We are anticipating installation late next summer.
Our licensed full power for DT36 will be 850KW ERP. We should have one of the best NTSC and DTV signals in town when finished!

Dave Frank
KSTW TV Assistant Chief Engineer

Dave:

Does your transmitted DTV signal still favor the south as was originally required to meet your Tacoma coverage requirement?

Originally posted by quarque
I have come down from the topo mountain my son and the tablets indicate much darkness in your realm. Your elevation is about 200 feet and you have a 550 foot hill west of you that blocks the QA and CH towers. Sorry.

On a lighter note, I'm working on a script for a movie. The working title is "Dude, where's my signal".

Larry

I was going to say, that part of Redmond is in a big hole there...

sdossick, if you want to get rid of your 4221 and preamp, that's the combo I'm looking at getting. Let me know!

-Lance

Quarque,

I am in a zone which could be considered a "black hole". You once gave me a prediction which was pretty miserable for receiving OTA signals. I now receive ALL OTA Seattle signals except UPN 11-1. Its wierd. Why should I receive all except 11-1. Now I am north east of the towers. I am at Woodinville-Duvall Rd and 236th PL. I use a CM 4248 with a CM 7775 and do a pretty good job with most channels (depending upon conditions).

Darryl

Oh great one... er... Larry, :)

How about the intersection of NE 97th St and 168th Ave NE on top of Education Hill in Redmond? Please.

The magic 8 ball says...

Thanks,
Mike

KSTW UPN 11 DT 36 (11-1) is broadcasting it's HD signal at low power, 68Kw directionally aimed at the S, SW toward Tacoma, our city of license. That's probably why you're getting everyone but us...everyone is at full power and we're not...plus the directionality of the signal.
KSTW just received approval (10/3/03) from the FCC to construct new full power (850 Kw) DTV facilities and a new ch. 11 antenna as well. We hope to complete this project by mid 2004...then you should be able to receive 11 and 11-1.
Ron Diotte
CE, KSTW

Lance -- I've PM'ed you about selling the 4221 and preamp.

Cheers

Ron:

Thanks for the KSTW clariification.

Originally posted by mle_ii
Oh great one... er... Larry, :)

How about the intersection of NE 97th St and 168th Ave NE on top of Education Hill in Redmond? Please.

The magic 8 ball says...

Thanks,
Mike
Looks pretty good. You have a hill to the west but if you put your antenna on a rooftop it should be OK. Height may affect your success significantly.

Originally posted by darmad2002
Quarque,

I am in a zone which could be considered a "black hole". You once gave me a prediction which was pretty miserable for receiving OTA signals. I now receive ALL OTA Seattle signals except UPN 11-1. Its wierd. Why should I receive all except 11-1. Now I am north east of the towers. I am at Woodinville-Duvall Rd and 236th PL. I use a CM 4248 with a CM 7775 and do a pretty good job with most channels (depending upon conditions).

Darryl
Well, it ain't an exact science. A few blocks in either direction can make a big difference when hills are involved. Glad to hear you succeeded though. Obviously the directional nature of 11-1's broadcast is working against you. May not improve until they change their equipment.

Larry

Hello Larry,

I could DEFINITELY use your help. I currently have a rooftop antenna and cannot get a good HD signal. I usually get 1-2 minutes tops before it drops out and comes back in again. I am primarily interested in being able to get ABC (Monday Night Football). I live near the corner of NE 97th St and 27th Ave NE.

Am I just in a hopeless location?

darmad2002, UPN is not a Seattle signal, it's coming from Tacoma.

Enter your address at the URL in my signature to learn where to point. I think your antennea can pull it in if aimed right. Your on top the hill, right?

sorry, no sig! www . antennaweb . org / aw / welcome . asp

IGNORE THE SPACES!

quarque!!

where do you get your topography info??? it's fascinating

Can you tell us a distance from hill / height of hill = ratio
for signal reception ?

Originally posted by weebling1
darmad2002, UPN is not a Seattle signal, it's coming from Tacoma.

KSTW UPN 11 (NTSC) and 11-1 (36-1, ATSC) both broadcast from the same tower on Capitol Hill in Seattle, adjacent to the tower for KCTS PBS channel 9 (NTSC) and 9-n (41-n, ATSC).

KSTW is licensed for Tacoma, but their transmitter is in Seattle. Their digital transmitter/antenna is currently directional and favors Tacoma while it is at low power. They recently received FCC approval to up their digital power. Their target is to have new NTSC and ATSC antennas deployed with higher power sometime next summer.

KSTW station engineers Ron Diotte and Dave Frank both monitor and post in this forum and provided the information that I repeated here (accurately I hope--working from memory). They have been extremely helpful with their ongoing communications with several Seattle area HD enthusiasts and the AVSForum.

Oooops!

Thanks Budget, I guess I should researched my antennea.web results a little further. Now the compass heading makes more sense.

* yellow KWPX-DT 32 PAX Bellevue WA Now Live 149°
* yellow KWDK-DT 42 DAY Tacoma WA Nov 1 2003 149°
* yellow KWOG-DT 50 IND Bellevue WA Now Live 149°
* green KCPQ-DT 18 FOX Tacoma WA Now Live 213°
* green KIRO-DT 39 CBS Seattle WA Now Live 192°
* green KHCV-DT 44 SAH Seattle WA Now Live 149°
* lt green KTBW-DT 14 TBN Tacoma WA Nov 1 2003 213°
* lt green KTWB-DT 25 WB Seattle WA Now Live 186°
* lt green KOMO-DT 38 ABC Seattle WA Now Live 191°
* lt green KCTS-DT 41 PBS Seattle WA Now Live 186°
* lt green KING-DT 48 NBC Seattle WA Now Live 191°
* blue KBCB-DT 19 IND Bellingham WA Under Review 309°
* blue KONG-DT 31 IND Everett WA Now Live 191°
* blue KVOS-DT 35 IND Bellingham WA Now Live 309°
* blue KSTW-DT 36 UPN Tacoma WA Now Live 186°

Originally posted by PSound
Hello Larry,

I could DEFINITELY use your help. I currently have a rooftop antenna and cannot get a good HD signal. I usually get 1-2 minutes tops before it drops out and comes back in again. I am primarily interested in being able to get ABC (Monday Night Football). I live near the corner of NE 97th St and 27th Ave NE.

Am I just in a hopeless location?
On the contrary, your LOS looks quite good. Your problem may be due to something else (reflections, trees, etc.). I would investigate moving your antenna or trying a different one. In the city you want a highly directional antenna that ignores reflected signals. I live about a mile NE of you and using the CM4228 I get good signal from QA and CH towers. Because of the Wedgewood ridge I can't get anything from Tacoma. But there isn't anything I want from there anyway. What sort of signal level does your receiver show? Are all stations the same?

Originally posted by weebling1
quarque!!

where do you get your topography info??? it's fascinating

Can you tell us a distance from hill / height of hill = ratio
for signal reception ?
I have the DeLorme Topgraphic program which has contour maps for the entire US. Among its features is the ability to draw a straight line between two points and get a profile of the terrain covered by the line. When I plot someone's LOS I draw a line from their location to the QA towers (and sometimes CH towers as well). Then I pull up the profile plot and draw an imaginary line from where the tower signals emminate to the person's house. Any hills that obscure this path will affect the signal. It's not an exact science but most of the time I can predict the likelyhood of HD reception. Of couse, the tarot cards help too... :)
I started doing this because of a ham friend of mine and his interest in HF radio communication (LOS is critical). It's also fun to check out areas you might visit on vacation etc. Check out delorme.com for details.
And yes I can get distance and height for everything. A little geometry & trig come in handy, but mostly I use a ruler on the profile plot.

Regarding power outputs, are there any other stations that are planning to increase their DT output? If so, what's the timeframe? I am getting KIRO and KING marginally but in the next 3 months with HD Tivo coming out, it's going to be more important to know if there is any hope on the horizon for my OTA reception. If they're going to be doubling or tripling their power, the picture could change dramatically.

Originally posted by quarque
On the contrary, your LOS looks quite good. Your problem may be due to something else (reflections, trees, etc.). I would investigate moving your antenna or trying a different one. In the city you want a highly directional antenna that ignores reflected signals. I live about a mile NE of you and using the CM4228 I get good signal from QA and CH towers. Because of the Wedgewood ridge I can't get anything from Tacoma. But there isn't anything I want from there anyway. What sort of signal level does your receiver show? Are all stations the same?

For ABC (38), I get between 75 and 83. It is ultra-erratic (the signal strength never holds for more then a second before jumping up or down a few levels).

For UPN (36) I get low 90s, and high 90s for 31. The signal on both of these is also erratic.

I never really kept a good eye on these before. I wonder if my problem is more my receiver and less my antenna.

I am using a Sony SAT-HD100.....

PSound - I can't speak about the Sony since I have only used a Samsung T150 but I would guess the more likely culprit is the antenna and multipath reflections. What is your antenna? Sometimes an attenuator will help with this problem since you seem to have plenty of signal strength. Also, do you have large trees in the way? I would try re-aiming or moving your antenna to several locations and if that does not help, try another antenna such as the CM4228. Also, tilt your antenna up about 10 degrees to aim at the point on the towers where the signal comes from.

Please quarque,

I request that you consult the wizard "Delorme" to check my possible reception. I've got a Sony rpLCD, and a Samsung SIR-T165 on the way and am hunting for an antenna, probably the CM4228.

410 riverview lane, snohomish 98290

antennea will be 35' from ground.

would comparison to standard UHF reception be a good hint? I've got a lousy old VHF ant. at 20' aimed about 210° , that gets WB22 at maybe 65% quality, KTBW20 at 35% intermitant, KONG16 at 50%, and the Bellevue stations pretty well.
Valid or not at all?

weebling1 - Your elevation is about 90 feet and there is a 530 foot hill in the way (east of Mill Creek). You will have no direct line-of-sight to CA or CH towers. However, there have been several cases where people got reception via reflected signals and did OK. You will have to play around quite a bit with the antenna aiming to find out. And, yes, analog UHF is a valid indicator. Usually when analog is good, digital is good. And when it is bad, digital is less likely. But many people hava had success even when their analog UHF was mediocre. This is mostly due to the fact that digital is a threshold system. Once you have enough signal your in. With analog it takes much more than that to get a decent picture. 210 degrees is the correct bearing for QA but as I said, that hill is blocking you direct LOS. Do you have a rotor? If not I would invest in one when your 4228 arrives.

Thanks for the info.

I have ordered the SAT-HD300 to see if that helps (I wanted DVI and 720p anyway). If that does not solve the issue, I will try the recommendations you gave. Thanks!!

Thank you quarque,

I have been considering a rotor. I'll post my success or failure when equipment arrives.

Hey everyone

Long time since I've been back. I have question for you guys.
With this nasty rain and overcast I have had a great deal of picture break-up (freeze frame and it pick up many seconds later,repeated) on my sammy t-151. Is common to that cloud cover and rain will disturb a picture to the point it's unwatchable. Monday football was very bad or do I need to re-adjust something. Are you guys having the same problem? I live in the silver firs area. My DISH is almost unaffected..Thanks Guys

Originally posted by Big_Dawg
Hey everyone

Long time since I've been back. I have question for you guys.
With this nasty rain and overcast I have had a great deal of picture break-up (freeze frame and it pick up many seconds later,repeated) on my sammy t-151. Is common to that cloud cover and rain will disturb a picture to the point it's unwatchable. Monday football was very bad or do I need to re-adjust something. Are you guys having the same problem? I live in the silver firs area. My DISH is almost unaffected..Thanks Guys

Hmm... that's not good. Are you using a pre-amp?

I'm in the Silver Firs area, too, but I can't comment quite yet. I just acquired a CM4221 and 7775 from sdossick in Redmond last night. I don't have a STB yet, so I just plugged the antenna into the spare TV upstairs and was able to get all the UHF channels pretty well. KONG16 was by far the best, with CH22 pretty close. There is some minor multipathing going on, but hopefully that won't affect the digital signals negatively. I was doing this on the north side of my house, however, so signals were having to go through the entire structure.

The CM4221 does work pretty well for the higher band VHF channels, too. I was able to get KIRO7 and KVOS12 almost perfectly. Q13 was a mess, however, with a lot of multipath and snow.

-Lance

Originally posted by Big_Dawg
Hey everyone

Long time since I've been back. I have question for you guys.
With this nasty rain and overcast I have had a great deal of picture break-up (freeze frame and it pick up many seconds later,repeated) on my sammy t-151. Is common to that cloud cover and rain will disturb a picture to the point it's unwatchable. Monday football was very bad or do I need to re-adjust something. Are you guys having the same problem? I live in the silver firs area. My DISH is almost unaffected..Thanks Guys
How many bars are you showing for signal (high and low)? The preamp suggestion is a good one. I forgot which antenna you are using. I never have any problems due to weather, but then I'm only 6 miles from QA.

I'm using the cm 4228 and no I'm not using any kink of amp. It was rock solid during the nice nights. Is the OTA signal affected by weather? I'm going to recheck the bars tonight

Originally posted by Big_Dawg
I'm using the cm 4228 and no I'm not using any kink of amp. It was rock solid during the nice nights. Is the OTA signal affected by weather? I'm going to recheck the bars tonight

Is your antenna outside? It was pretty windy the other night -- it might have been blowing that very directional antenna around enough to lose the signal intermittently. Just an idea...

-Lance

Dawg:
I'm near Silver Firs (near 132nd St & 29th Ave) and have had no problems with ABC - even with the recent wind and rain. MNF was fine this past Monday. I'm using a CM 4248 and a rotor. For some strange reason (reflections?) ABC is the only station I really need the rotor for. When I aim the antenna the signal is rock solid. Bizarre since ABC transmits from the same location as CBS and NBC.
Tom

Thanks Guys
Alot of good feedback. Lot's OTA guy's in my area. It is outside antenna. I plan on rechecking the Ant. tonight to make sure didn't twist from my setting. I'm going to recheck my strength to make sure i'm still getting 9 bars on my samy t-151. What is the best amp to use and what do they cost. Web link would be welcome...I keep you posted when i figure this out.....Thanks Dawg

Does UPN go HD (programming) or am I seeing things? Go UPN go!

Best Amp after some research is the Channel Master 7777 (or 7775 for only UHF).

If any one cares, I live on Bainbridge and recently went from a RCA DTC-100 to the new Sony HD300 and wow it made a huge difference in being able to pull down the OTA signals (not using any preamp at this point). I know get every single OTA feed whereas before I just got PBS, KING, CBS and a weak ABC and FOX. Heck, I didn't even know some of those other stations were broadcasting digitally (UPN?/KONG) but the maybe that is a good thing.

Originally posted by tuquet
Does UPN go HD (programming) or am I seeing things? Go UPN go!
UPN is showing some stuff in HD now. Enterprise and Jake 2.0, maybe some others. Titan doesn't seem to know about it yet.

Originally posted by Big_Dawg
Thanks Guys
I keep you posted when i figure this out.....Thanks Dawg
Well guy's I did some system checks last night. I was getting a strong 9 bars on my sammy t151 and my antenna is locked on the correct setting still. Everything came in very good last night with no breaking up.
The only thing that I'm wondering is that across the street about 150 yards away behind the houses. There are some very tall thin silver fir trees, would these things blowing around in the wind cause a breakup in picture with the freeze frame thing. It is in a straight line with my ant setting and much higher than my ant. No wind no problem with them being there. If this is true would a amp. help? My thinking is with 9 bar reading I'm not going to get much better. Anybody for a late night chainsaw Party....DAWG with a chainsaw.

Originally posted by quarque
If you care to post your nearest intersection I can plot your line-of-site to the QA towers in my topo program and see what might be in the way.
Larry

Nice Offer. Thank You. I'm a new guy to HDTV, but have had Big-Dish C/Ku Band for years. I currently have a small to medium 10 year old Radio Shack antenna for OTA. I'd be interested in my sight line and advice for a good source for Outdoor antennas, and what antennas have shown to be good for our area.

Thanks
Cliff

107 219th PL SE, 98021 Bothell.

Originally posted by quarque
another successful 4228 installation - I think I will start buying CM stock. You are about the fifth person to try it recently and have great results with it - glad to hear about your success! Larry

What is a good local to the Seattle area source for these Antennas?

Thanks
Cliff

Locally, Pringles Electronics in Everett carries CM antennas. Cheaper sources are on the web.

Dawg:
No a preamp would probably not help you. Your signal is strong enough, an amp is only going to magnify a weak signal or compensate for a long cable run.
Sounds like you have multi-path issues if your signal is bouncing when the wind blows. Make sure the antenna is mounted securely (mine recently needed to be tightend). I'd be willing to bet the trees are causing your problems. Having said that, I have huge trees squarely in my LOS too, but my antenna & signal somehow blast through them, even in the wind. I chose the 4248 for its ability to combat multi-path. I'm guessing that it's highly directional nature is ignoring a lot of the multipath reflections around me.
Tom

Thanks for the Antenna advice.
Cliff

I live near the Montlake cut and get all the hd local channels marginally with a ss but have to rotate it when switching between the QA and CH towers. With how close I am to the towers and the roughly 60 degree difference in aiming, do any of you have a recommendation for an antenna which will grab the signals without needing to be rotated? Thanks for your help.
Trevor

Originally posted by cliffcor
Nice Offer. Thank You. I'm a new guy to HDTV, but have had Big-Dish C/Ku Band for years. I currently have a small to medium 10 year old Radio Shack antenna for OTA. I'd be interested in my sight line and advice for a good source for Outdoor antennas, and what antennas have shown to be good for our area.

Thanks
Cliff

107 219th PL SE, 98021 Bothell.

Cliff - your LOS is somewhat marginal. You have a 480 foot hill about 3/4 mile SW of you and your elevation is about 410 feet. The height of your antenna installation could greatly affect your success. Are you currently getting OTA digital and/or analog UHF very well?

Larry

Originally posted by fatboy_2k
I live near the Montlake cut and get all the hd local channels marginally with a ss but have to rotate it when switching between the QA and CH towers. With how close I am to the towers and the roughly 60 degree difference in aiming, do any of you have a recommendation for an antenna which will grab the signals without needing to be rotated? Thanks for your help.
Trevor

Most people use either a rotor (not practical here) or 2 antennas and a combiner. Search the forum on combining antennas and you will find lots of good recommendations on methods and equipment. Your could try an omnidirectional antenna but there has not been much success with them in urban areas because they pick up multipath too easily. Since you are so close I would get another cheap antenna and combine them.

Originally posted by quarque
Cliff - your LOS is somewhat marginal. You have a 480 foot hill about 3/4 mile SW of you and your elevation is about 410 feet. The height of your antenna installation could greatly affect your success. Are you currently getting OTA digital and/or analog UHF very well? Larry

UHF (16/22) is ok, not great but OK. I've not tuned the antenna much, so I'll do that. Thanks for the look. I'll find some play time on the roof.

Cliff

I can pretty much get in all of the local HD channels I want. Except I can't seem to get PBS (41).

I can get
18 (fox)
25 (WB)
31 (IND)
36 (upn)
38 (abc)
39 (cbs)
48 (nbc)

Any ideas why I can't get PBS. Is the signal weaker than 36 (upn) at the same compass angle as 41 (pbs)?

I'm using MyHD on my PC and one VHF/UHF and one UHF only antane.

Thanks,
Mike

I just finished reading about 10 pages and am feeling very envious. I am going to purchase a Sammy hln567 and am at the moment on Comcast. Have played with the idea of going to a small dish but the OTA intrigues me. Is it possible for an Edmonds location to receive OTA? !0th Ave N to be specific. Any thoughts???

Originally posted by nodrog2
I just finished reading about 10 pages and am feeling very envious. I am going to purchase a Sammy hln567 and am at the moment on Comcast. Have played with the idea of going to a small dish but the OTA intrigues me. Is it possible for an Edmonds location to receive OTA? !0th Ave N to be specific. Any thoughts???
Welcome to the forum nodrog2. Our goal is to move the envy From you To your friends (assuming you can get HD). To assess your location I need the cross street since elevation may change significantly in only a few blocks. At 10th & Alder, for example, things don't look very good. You are fighting an uphill battle (literally) going south for about 1 mile. But if you have a 2-3 story house and a mast on the roof you might have a chance. If I were you, I would try to borrow someone's receiver and temporarliy set a cheap UHF antenna on the roof (if you don't have on already) to see if you get anything at all. If you have no friends with an STB then a good hint would be how well you get analog UHF stations from Seattle. This can be tested with your existing TV and any UHF antenna. If you have fair to good analog you have a good chance at digital. Do any of your neighbors get HD OTA?

Originally posted by mle_ii
I can pretty much get in all of the local HD channels I want. Except I can't seem to get PBS (41).

I can get
18 (fox)
25 (WB)
31 (IND)
36 (upn)
38 (abc)
39 (cbs)
48 (nbc)

Any ideas why I can't get PBS. Is the signal weaker than 36 (upn) at the same compass angle as 41 (pbs)?

I'm using MyHD on my PC and one VHF/UHF and one UHF only antane.

Thanks,
Mike

We have seen this before and it is rarely the same station in each case. First off, PBS is not broadcasting 24x7. So you need to try afternoons or evenings. Possible reasons for not getting a particualr station could be: 1) multipath reflection kills it (by sheer bad luck). 2) your in the shadow of something that blocks that tower. 3) you're getting signal overload and that station is too strong for your receiver.

So the first thing to try is rotating your antenna slightly each way. Then try moving it in 2-foot increments each direction (N,E,S,W,UP,DN). Next step is to try an amplifier or attenuator depending on your average signal levels on other OTA stations. Lastly try a different antenna. How far are you from QA hill? How are you combining the 2 antennas? You only need UHF for Seattle stations.

Strange, I did notice that the signal started coming in (almost) a little later in the day. Though it will stay on for a few seconds, get garbled and perhaps pick up again in a few more seconds or even freeze for a while.

There are some trees that are right in that line of sight, but since I get 36 in and it's on the same hill I figured I would get PBS in as well. Are they on the same tower? Do they both have the same signal output?

I'll try moving it around some more when I get a chance. I tried it a little bit today without much luck. Though I only turned what direction it was facing. I might even try out a different antenna.

I'm about 10 miles away.
KCTS-DT 41 PBS Seattle WA Now Live 223° - I don't get clearly.
KSTW-DT 36 UPN Tacoma WA Now Live 223° - I get.
KING-DT 48 NBC Seattle WA Now Live 232° - I get.

I am combining the 2 antennas via a combiner. It takes UHF and VHF from two different sources and combines them into one coax. I tried just the UHF alone directly to MyHD and didn't really improve any.

Thanks quarque. - I better forget OTA as I live several blocks below Alder, hopefully Comcast will be bringing more locals soon. How is Comcast quality compared to D* or Dishnet?

nodrog2,

Sorry about the OTA. Most consumers find that DirecTV has a better picture than Cable or Digital Cable. DirecTV has HBO HD, Showtime HD; there is no additional charge for these networks if you are a HBO and Showtime subscriber. DirecTV also has a $10.99 HD Package that includes HDNET, HDNET Movies, Discovery HD, and ESPN HD. There is also a PPV HD channel. DirecTV also shows specials, sports, and movies in HD for free on an ongoing schedule.

DirecTV has the highest consumer satisfaction award for the second year in a row from J. D. Powers and Assoc. DirecTV was at the top with a rating of 113, Comcast was near the bottom with a rating of 91. There was only one traditional cable company over 100. This has been a trend with these ratings.

The other big difference between cable and satellite is cost. DirecTV has raised its prices twice in the last nine and a half years, in 1994 they had a package for $29.99 and now that package is $33.99. What has your cable bill done in the last 10 years? Most have doubled; I guess deregulation has not served the consumer.

Larry (quarque),

I would appreciate it if you could check my line of sight for HD reception. I live at XXXX St. Sw in Lynnwood. I've wanted HD for a long time and I think I can finally afford it (I just hope I can receive the signal!).

Thanks in advance for any info you can give me! :)

Rogercy - Thanks for the info. I imagine you have D* satellite but your facts speak pretty loudly. The extra cost for an HD receiver plus programming will put it at least equal to Comcast (if I prorate the HDrx over five years). PQ is very important to me but also the local channels. Any word on locals in HD from D*??

Question for quarque - my address is 1006 10th N. Edmonds. If I can get a weak signal with rabbits, will the HD signals come through better. I believe I read that HD carries much better than analog. From my name you can see I'm still much a novice, appreciate any help.

I hope you guys don't mind me asking you guys some questions since I am not from you area. I am an Engineer for a CBS affiliate in Huntsville, Alabama. I was reading an article in the TV Technology magazine published Oct 10, 2003 Pg 10. Where KOMO received an Edward R Morrow award for large station newscast for 2002. That cool and all but in the article KOMO was stating the fact that they shoot all there news in 16x9 format and up convert this to digital transmitter and lop off the sides before down converting it to the analog transmitter. My question to you guys is this. How does it look? Does the widescreen look better than the 4x3 of the competion? Can you tell it has been upconverted? Are commercials streached or are they in original aspect ratio? Do they broadcast the 1080i signal?

Ok, I was able to get PBS in 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 and 9-5. I used the Zenith Silver Sensor antenna.

What's weird is that I have a huge UHF antenna on the mast above my roof, which gets all the stations I'm interested in except for PBS. Yet the little Silver Sensor sitting on top of my tv inside of my house picks up PBS. Why is this happening?

Originally posted by Brian Covington
I hope you guys don't mind me asking you guys some questions since I am not from you area. I am an Engineer for a CBS affiliate in Huntsville, Alabama. I was reading an article in the TV Technology magazine published Oct 10, 2003 Pg 10. Where KOMO received an Edward R Morrow award for large station newscast for 2002. That cool and all but in the article KOMO was stating the fact that they shoot all there news in 16x9 format and up convert this to digital transmitter and lop off the sides before down converting it to the analog transmitter. My question to you guys is this. How does it look? Does the widescreen look better than the 4x3 of the competion? Can you tell it has been upconverted? Are commercials streached or are they in original aspect ratio? Do they broadcast the 1080i signal?

The live broadcasts in the KOMO news room are full 720p. The remote pick-ups (using their own equipment) are all 16x9, but noticably lower resolution than the live studio shots. Everything that was originally shot in 4x3 is shown in 4x3, including commercials and network news bits included in local news segments. In other words, everything is original aspect ratio, with sidebars when needed.

Their live studio shots and remotes are framed such that the areas outside the 4x3 window within the 16x9 picture area can be cropped for 4x3 480i SD (NTSC) broadcasts without losing critical content. For example, the weather segment on the news with a weather map might show the full body of the weather person in 16x9 and only their face and one shoulder, etc., in 4x3. Similarly, the portion of the weather map being discussed always fits within the 4x3 area of the 16x9 picture.

So, in some ways, you might say that the extreme left and right areas of the picture are not important and could be left out. But, it looks fine and natural in 16x9 and also looks good in 4x3.

KOMO also produces and broadcasts most (all?) station promos and many local commercials in 720p 16x9 using the same approach. Ironically, one locally produced segment that is not 16x9 is the Fisher Broadcasting (owners of the station) announcement that typically follows the news. This appears to be some older graphics work that has not yet been replaced with a 16x9 version. But it only lasts a few seconds.

Besides doing every newscast in 16x9 with the live portions being 720p, KOMO produces some other locally originated programs in 720p and 16x9, again using the same approach.

It does look like their live "graphics" including text names for on-screen folks, etc., might not be full 720p. At least they look softer than I would expect if they were 720p.

In summary, I personally believe that KOMO has done an admirable job of moving forward to HD while still providing usable 4x3 SD versions of the same programs.

The icing on the cake is their handling of audio. They are passing through ABC network Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. When not sending DD 5.1, they send DD 2.0 with the matrix surround encoded flag turned on, so that a receiver set in DD mode will still decode the center and rear channels of programs with Dolby Pro Logic II audio (which includes nearly all recent programs). None of the other Seattle stations are doing either DD 5.1 nor turning on the matrix surround flag, so we get flat sounding 2-channel stereo from them unless we manually override our A/V receivers to force Dolby Pro Logic II decoding.

KOMO has an engineer that communicates regularly with HD enthusiasts via email and encourages constructive feedback and answers every email I have ever sent him. A couple other Seattle stations have engineers who also communicate, but many do not.

I hope I have answered most of your questions here. If not, ask again.

Great thanks you have been quite helpfull. We plan on getting new studio cameras next year and have kicked around the 16x9 format. Our newsroom is already capible of shooting and editing 16x9. Our production control switcher is all digital every input on the switcher has to be converted to digital and converted back before it hits air. We have all the equipment for DD5.1 but CBS has not supplied the HD receiver so we cant pass it. Do me a favor and pass my email to address to the KOMO engineer brian.covington@whnt.com or give me his address. If you find yourself surfing around visit our HD forum at www.tennesseevalleyhd.tv

Originally posted by subspace
Larry (quarque),

I would appreciate it if you could check my line of sight for HD reception. I live at *(removed by request)*. I've wanted HD for a long time and I think I can finally afford it (I just hope I can receive the signal!).

Thanks in advance for any info you can give me! :)
LOS looks great. No hills in the way. Good luck.

Originally posted by nodrog2
Question for quarque - my address is 1006 10th N. Edmonds. If I can get a weak signal with rabbits, will the HD signals come through better. I believe I read that HD carries much better than analog. From my name you can see I'm still much a novice, appreciate any help.
Hard to say. It all looks quite marginal. As I suggested before, try to borrow someone's equipment and see what happens. I wouldn't invest huge sums of money in anything you can't return.

Originally posted by mle_ii
Ok, I was able to get PBS in 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 and 9-5. I used the Zenith Silver Sensor antenna.

What's weird is that I have a huge UHF antenna on the mast above my roof, which gets all the stations I'm interested in except for PBS. Yet the little Silver Sensor sitting on top of my tv inside of my house picks up PBS. Why is this happening?
It's all part of the black magic of OTA. Signals are just not predictable in urban areas where you have buildings and trees etc. Just put in a switch and use the SS when you need it.

Originally posted by irs1040ez
Great thanks you have been quite helpfull. We plan on getting new studio cameras next year and have kicked around the 16x9 format. Our newsroom is already capible of shooting and editing 16x9. Our production control switcher is all digital every input on the switcher has to be converted to digital and converted back before it hits air. We have all the equipment for DD5.1 but CBS has not supplied the HD receiver so we cant pass it. Do me a favor and pass my email to address to the KOMO engineer brian.covington@whnt.com or give me his address. If you find yourself surfing around visit our HD forum at www.tennesseevalleyhd.tv

Brian:

I sent an email to Don Wilkinson, engineer at KOMO, with your request and your email address. In my experience, it sometimes takes him a few days to respond, so don't assume that he won't respond. I have not communicated with him for a while, so I am not sure whether he is in town or not. But, he will respond when he can.

Good luck with your efforts to expand your HD broadcasts. I will look at your web site when I am done here.

Feel free to PM me if you have further questions.

And, no, I do not work for KOMO, but Don and his team have earned my total respect. They went through some painful early times getting the HD pieces to fit together, and I did not hesitate to let them know what was working and what was not. But, I did so respectfully and constructively.

Originally posted by Brian Covington
I hope you guys don't mind me asking you guys some questions since I am not from you area. I am an Engineer for a CBS affiliate in Huntsville, Alabama. I was reading an article in the TV Technology magazine published Oct 10, 2003 Pg 10. Where KOMO received an Edward R Morrow award for large station newscast for 2002. That cool and all but in the article KOMO was stating the fact that they shoot all there news in 16x9 format and up convert this to digital transmitter and lop off the sides before down converting it to the analog transmitter. My question to you guys is this. How does it look? Does the widescreen look better than the 4x3 of the competion? Can you tell it has been upconverted? Are commercials streached or are they in original aspect ratio? Do they broadcast the 1080i signal?

I think the KOMO news looks better than any other local news broadcast. More importantly, I vote with my remote by watching KOMO news because of the better PQ.
Tom

Quarque, can you please check OTA line of site for a friend of mine? He lives at 117 Logan RD, lynnwood 98036. There is no cross street very close, but mapquest gives me this:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=117+Logan+rd&city=lynnwood&state=wa&zipcode=98036&homesubmit=Get+Map

thanks for any help!
Bill

Originally posted by DirkPitt
Quarque, can you please check OTA line of site for a friend of mine? He lives at 117 Logan RD, lynnwood 98036. There is no cross street very close, but mapquest gives me this:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=117+Logan+rd&city=lynnwood&state=wa&zipcode=98036&homesubmit=Get+Map

thanks for any help!
Bill

LOS looks OK. No major hills in the way. Look out for trees and buildings though!

Originally posted by quarque
We have seen this before and it is rarely the same station in each case.

My new htpc lit up for the first time last night (yay!) and I can't get KOMO-DT or KCTS-DT. I'm in Port Townsend (gotta change that profile thingy), using a FUSION HDTVII and a ChannelMaster 4228.

Queen Anne is at 130 degreens and Capitol Hill is at 129. I aimed the antenna at 130 with a compass, and I get all the QH and CH stations at about 75% signal strength with a beautiful steady picture.

Except for KCTS-DT and KOMO-DT. :mad: Once (and I forget where exactly) I got KCTS but only at about 45% signal strength and it froze quite a bit.

It does seem that the stations that people struggle with most are KOMO-DT and KCTS-DT, one on each hill. Any ideas why?

Also, does the vertical axis matter? My antenna has a slight tilt towards the sky.

I have heard that the KOMO-DT antenna for their digital signal is mounted on the southeast side of their tower, leaving a shadow in the northwest direction because the tower structure somewhat blocks the signal in that direction. I don't know any specifics, but that seems like it might affect your KOMO-DT reception.

Regarding KCTS-DT, are you receiving KTWB-DT (real channel 25 if I remember correctly)? Their tower is close to that of KCTS on Capitol Hill in Seattle.

Perhaps other readers have more accurate and complete knowledge of the KOMO-DT antenna issue, if it has not recently changed.

Regarding your slight tilt toward the sky, it seems to me that it works a bit against you since you are so far from Seattle. Again, I am no expert in this area.

Good luck!

I believe my LOS to Seattle to be poor but would like to prove it out. I pick up the Gold Mountain Tower well with an occasional drop of Fox 13-1 with my Silver Sensor and am wondering if I could pick up the Seattle transmissions with a CM4228 or equivalent setup. Quarque, or anyone capable, would you provide a LOS from

10017 127th St Ct NW
Gig Harbor 98329

Thanks :)

Originally posted by Elimin8r
I believe my LOS to Seattle to be poor but would like to prove it out. I pick up the Gold Mountain Tower well with an occasional drop of Fox 13-1 with my Silver Sensor and am wondering if I could pick up the Seattle transmissions with a CM4228 or equivalent setup. Quarque, or anyone capable, would you provide a LOS from

10017 127th St Ct NW
Gig Harbor 98329

Thanks :)
"poor" is a good assessment. you are at about 150 feet and you have a 280 foot hill about 1/3 mile to the NE. you must be gettting reflections - which means everything from QA and CH is a crap shoot. 4228 might help or might not.

Larry

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I have heard that the KOMO-DT antenna for their digital signal is mounted on the southeast side of their tower, leaving a shadow in the northwest direction because the tower structure somewhat blocks the signal in that direction. I don't know any specifics, but that seems like it might affect your KOMO-DT reception.

Regarding KCTS-DT, are you receiving KTWB-DT (real channel 25 if I remember correctly)? Their tower is close to that of KCTS on Capitol Hill in Seattle.

Perhaps other readers have more accurate and complete knowledge of the KOMO-DT antenna issue, if it has not recently changed.

Regarding your slight tilt toward the sky, it seems to me that it works a bit against you since you are so far from Seattle. Again, I am no expert in this area.

Good luck!
Your notion about the KOMO transmitter makes some sense because several people towards the west & NW have had trouble with KOMO. Tilting your antenna upwards usually helps. If you are below 1200 feet in elevation you are looking 'up' at the transmitter. The closer in the more tilt you need. At 20 miles it won't matter. But it is worth experimenting because you might eliminate some reflections by adding more tilt.

Larry

Originally posted by Steve Schauer
My new htpc lit up for the first time last night (yay!) and I can't get KOMO-DT or KCTS-DT. I'm in Port Townsend (gotta change that profile thingy), using a FUSION HDTVII and a ChannelMaster 4228.

Queen Anne is at 130 degreens and Capitol Hill is at 129. I aimed the antenna at 130 with a compass, and I get all the QH and CH stations at about 75% signal strength with a beautiful steady picture.

Except for KCTS-DT and KOMO-DT. :mad: Once (and I forget where exactly) I got KCTS but only at about 45% signal strength and it froze quite a bit.

It does seem that the stations that people struggle with most are KOMO-DT and KCTS-DT, one on each hill. Any ideas why?

Also, does the vertical axis matter? My antenna has a slight tilt towards the sky.
Antenna height matters a lot for most locations. Tilit is something worth experimenting with, but at your distance you want to be almost dead-level. If possible, try moving your antenna around to different locations.

Larry

Originally posted by quarque
Your notion about the KOMO transmitter makes some sense because several people towards the west & NW have had trouble with KOMO. Tilting your antenna upwards usually helps. If you are below 1200 feet in elevation you are looking 'up' at the transmitter. The closer in the more tilt you need. At 20 miles it won't matter. But it is worth experimenting because you might eliminate some reflections by adding more tilt.

Larry

Actually, I live on the hill southeast of Renton in Fairwood West. I am in a lucky position for nearly all of the DTV stations. I have a $20 Radio Shack UHF-only yagi that has a broad enough reception pattern for me to get Gold Mountain to the west and barely get Cougar/Tiger Mountain to the east (although I don't care much about those stations). I have no trouble with Queen Anne and Capitol Hills for digital reception, but my VHF analog reception for those hills is marginal at best (with a separate VHF antenna 5 feet above the UHF antenna and pointed in the same direction).

I have not tried for KBTC-DT (real channel 27) from Tacoma, which is way out of my reception pattern.

Larry, you are providing a valuable service for folks here and I commend you for it.

Interestingly, antennaweb.org tells me I should get an omnidirectional antenna with gain, but I have used those on my boat and I always had severe multipath problems. A single, back-of-set rabbit ear usually worked better, even from inside the cabin. I finally gave up and took a DirecTV receiver and dish with me on the boat and set it up on the bridge after we docked. We got great reception that way.

[edit to correct KBTC real channel number.]

Originally posted by cliffcor
UHF (16/22) is ok, not great but OK. I've not tuned the antenna much, so I'll do that. Thanks for the look. I'll find some play time on the roof.Cliff

I've aimed my 10 year old 5 foot RS antenna to try and improve my Ch 16 reception. It is a bit better, watchable with a bit of multi-path. It's currently on a 5 ft. mast.

Seems to me I have a couple options to try. Advice welcome!

Buy a 10 Ft Mast.
Buy a newer larger multi-element directional antenna.
Buy a new UHF only antenna and mix my existing VHF signal into the downlead.

My VHF from QAH is generally very good.

Thanks
Cliff

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Regarding KCTS-DT, are you receiving KTWB-DT (real channel 25 if I remember correctly)? Their tower is close to that of KCTS on Capitol Hill in Seattle.


I get a great picture on KTWB at about 75% signal strength. KCTS runs about 35 to 40%.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I will play some more with the position and report back.

Could you please check the Los for a friend of mine.
25014 Sahalee Dr E
Samammish, Wa
98074
Thanks,
Bruce

I found some station info that probably explains why I don't get KCTS or KOMO - their transmitter power is a lot lower than the stations I do get:

48 - KING-DT - 960KW - 80% - solid
39 - KIRO-DT - 603KW - 75% - solid
25 - KTWB-DT - ??? - 70% - solid
38 - KOMO-DT - 405KW - 38% - no picture
41 - KCTS-DT - 427KW - 44% - no picture

Do you think a pre-amp could help in this case?

Originally posted by Steve Schauer
I found some station info that probably explains why I don't get KCTS or KOMO - their transmitter power is a lot lower than the stations I do get:

48 - KING-DT - 960KW - 80% - solid
39 - KIRO-DT - 603KW - 75% - solid
25 - KTWB-DT - ??? - 70% - solid
38 - KOMO-DT - 405KW - 38% - no picture
41 - KCTS-DT - 427KW - 44% - no picture

Do you think a pre-amp could help in this case?
Definitely worth a try. Get one with adjustable gain because you might swamp out the receiver on KING or KIRO. Or get an adjustable attenuator to put after the preamp. A little signal boost might do the trick.

Larry

Originally posted by Budget_HT

Larry, you are providing a valuable service for folks here and I commend you for it.

Interestingly, antennaweb.org tells me I should get an omnidirectional antenna with gain, but I have used those on my boat and I always had severe multipath problems. A single, back-of-set rabbit ear usually worked better, even from inside the cabin. I finally gave up and took a DirecTV receiver and dish with me on the boat and set it up on the bridge after we docked. We got great reception that way.

Thanks Dave. It only takes 2 minutes and it's something I enjoy doing.

I think antennaweb.org is based on analog reception. Very few people have had any luck with omnidirectional antennas. I think they need to update their data/advice.

I would have thought a dish on a boat would not work because of the rocking motion. Or is it gimbled?

Originally posted by Bruceko
Could you please check the Los for a friend of mine.
25014 Sahalee Dr E
Samammish, Wa
98074
Thanks,
Bruce
Bruce - there is a hill about 1/4 mile to the west that rises about 40 feet. A decent antenna on the roof should have a very good chance. Put it as high as feasible.

Thanks,
I gave him a Channelmaster 4228 that I wasn't using. Sounds like he should get a good signal

Originally posted by quarque
I would have thought a dish on a boat would not work because of the rocking motion. Or is it gimbled?

The boat was 43 feet long and weighed 16 tons, so it did not rock much unless the water was pretty rough. In heavy winds, the boat would swing a bit when tied to the dock. Usually I could find a mid point azimuth setting that reduced or eliminated dropouts from that swaying.

These are all moot points for me now because we sold the boat a couple months ago. Now I take that same dish and tripod with me in my RV and set it up when we want to watch TV after we settle in for the night. We don't always bother unless there is something we really want to watch that will not be recorded at home on one of our DirecTV DVR with TiVo machines. Real time news and sports is sometimes nice.

My next step for my trailer is to take my second (older) HD STB (DirecTV and OTA) along and try it. I need to get a 3-LNB dish if I want HD from DirecTV. I am more curious about trying digital OTA from various locations. I have a typical Winegard directional RV antenna with manual rotation and a preamp. We don't watch a lot of TV when traveling unless we stay in one place for several days or more. So, this is not really a high priority right now.

Dave - I saw an ad once on one of those RV shows about a tracking dish that allows you to watch satellite TV while you drive (well, maybe your passengers!). I understand how to control the antenna pointing with servos (my job is servo controls). But it must use gyros to keep aimed at a point in the sky at all times. They didn't mention the price. If you have to ask you probably can't afford it!

Larry

Larry:

Similar tracking dishes are available for boats (they should be called yachts if they have one). They definitely cost thousands more than my $40 Winegard tripod and $50 dual LNB 18" dish. We get along fine with what we have, although my wife did once ask about being able to TiVo record (or not) while we were driving. Technically, it can be done, but economically for us, it is beyond our reasonable budget. It would be nice to control the home DirecTV DVR with TiVo from the road, so if we watched a program live while traveling, we could delete it from the TiVo and make room for more recording. Are we spoiled or what?

Larry,

I've got another address for you to check. A coworker just got a new Sony 34XBR910 and is wondering if OTA is in the realm of possibility.

195th & 56th St E in Bonney Lake

Thanks a bunch!

-Lance

Although it constitutes a lot of small chores for Larry, I'm happy that so many people in this area are enjoying HDTV. It rocks!

Originally posted by felthove
Although it constitutes a lot of small chores for Larry, I'm happy that so many people in this area are enjoying HDTV. It rocks!
I'll second that. His LOS advice helped me understand my challenge, and with other advice from here, I was able to use a taller mast, and a dedicated UFH antenna to do gain a good UHF signal.
Cliff

Originally posted by lkinley
Larry,

I've got another address for you to check. A coworker just got a new Sony 34XBR910 and is wondering if OTA is in the realm of possibility.

195th & 56th St E in Bonney Lake

Thanks a bunch!

-Lance
Lance - your coworker is in luck. No hills in the way - should be clear sailing to QA or CH.

Larry

What happened to KBTC 28-4? I hope they only drop it temporarily? My kid is very disappointed.

I still don't have my Sony:mad: but here's what signals I'm getting when viewed on a 15" PC monitor.

Hardware: Samsung SIR-T165
Channel Master 4228 at 35' (12' of mast)
Rotor

KOMO 4-1 75% good
KING 5-1 75% good
KIRO 7-1 75% good
FOX 13-1 75% good
WB 13-2 75% good
KONG 16-1 35% unstable, must be within 1 degree (everett signal?)
WB 22-1 35% stable (everett?)
FOX 22-2 35% stable (everett?)

can't recieve KCTS 9 HD or KSTW-UPN HD at all, very sad!

I'm on the edge of HWY-9 just into Snohomish (honk when you spot my antenna!, can't miss it)
I really want to get 9 and UPN, are they up-ing their signal?
Or would a CM7775 pre-amp help?

edit: oopps again! KSTW power-up mid 2004

I'm in Woodinville/Bear creek area, haven't looked at the entire thread (yet) but from antennaweb.org it looks like I have some channels at 231 degrees (FOX and TBN Tacoma), a bunch at 223 (KING, KONG), some at 215-216 (WB, UPN, PBS), PBS Tacoma at 195, and some at 145 (KWPX, KWOG, KHCV) and a bunch of other misc mostly at the same orientations.

Would 231 and 223 be QA and CH? What's at 215-216? And is 145 Cougar Mountain?

Curious on suggestions for antenna setups, don't want a rotator, haven't done any HTDV watching so no idea what channels are actually live, which show any decent content, etc.

Receiver will be either a DirecTv $399 deal (Samsung 160?) or perhaps a Sony HD300. Any experience with the Samsung versus Sony for terrestrial pickup in this area? People seem to like the Sony but haven't read enough to see thoughts on the Samsung.

Larry. I'm ready for hd, but the question is - is ota ready for me?
Could you check-
158th and Lakeview ave s.e. in monroe 98272

I realize there is a hill a mile or so in front of me but I'm not sure of sevarity of the situation. I've talked to a few neighbors who have antennas, and they said they recieve most analog channels with there vhf/uhf antennas.

Thanks for the Help.

Mason

Originally posted by longing
Larry. I'm ready for hd, but the question is - is ota ready for me?
Could you check-
158th and Lakeview ave s.e. in monroe 98272

I realize there is a hill a mile or so in front of me but I'm not sure of sevarity of the situation. I've talked to a few neighbors who have antennas, and they said they recieve most analog channels with there vhf/uhf antennas.

Thanks for the Help.

Mason
"Hill"!?!?! Try Bald Mountain - 680 feet and in direct LOS with QA hill. Since you elevation is so low (50 feet) you won't have much chance at any HD without a really tall tower. Perhaps cable? Satellite?

Originally posted by weebling1
I still don't have my Sony:mad: but here's what signals I'm getting when viewed on a 15" PC monitor.

Hardware: Samsung SIR-T165
Channel Master 4228 at 35' (12' of mast)
Rotor

KOMO 4-1 75% good
KING 5-1 75% good
KIRO 7-1 75% good
FOX 13-1 75% good
WB 13-2 75% good
KONG 16-1 35% unstable, must be within 1 degree (everett signal?)
WB 22-1 35% stable (everett?)
FOX 22-2 35% stable (everett?)

can't recieve KCTS 9 HD or KSTW-UPN HD at all, very sad!

I'm on the edge of HWY-9 just into Snohomish (honk when you spot my antenna!, can't miss it)
I really want to get 9 and UPN, are they up-ing their signal?
Or would a CM7775 pre-amp help?

edit: oopps again! KSTW power-up mid 2004
Yes, I can see your antenna from here! Well, not really. But you did the right thing with the mast. KSTW's signal is directed away from you so probably no chance until mid 2004. KCTS is a little weaker than the other QA signals but not THAT weak. Perhaps you are getting reflections somehow and that is killing it. A preamp is worth a try. Get an adjustable one or put an adjustable attenuator in series so you can fine-tune the gain.

Larry

Thanks Larry for the quick reply even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I, being the stubborn person that I am, went and bought the RS uhf-only antenna that is a yaggi(?) for twenty bucks and threw it out on the overhang of the first floor without a mast or anything and here are my results. keep in mind it is my perception of the signal.

16- 90-100%
20- 50-60%
22- 80-90%
28- 40%
33- 75%
45- 75%
51- 25%
56- 50%

obviously these are analog. Even though the main channels(annalog) are vhf, I was able to get picture on then networks and pbs.

Here's my question to anyone. I live in a two-story house, so my guess is that I will have another 20 feet in elevation to this test. Do you think that with these numbers and adding the addional elevation I will have a good chance of recieving hd despite the bad news from Larry?

thanks - Mason.

from my initial "test" with analog UHF signal, I think you'll get something.
My numbers didn't look as good as yours on some and I get 5 healthy, network signals, BUT my interviening hill is much further away.

Bear in mind that digital is a different ball game, you aren't going to watch the analog signals you tested for and some aren't using the same broadcast power on digital as with analog. (unless you really must have that HD NBCshopping channel out of Bellevue!)

Can you spot any antennas you think could be pulling digital in your neighborhood? Maybe someone can tell you what they get. I'd hate to tell you to spend $300+ to get the same channels as Comcast digital cable.


EDIT: just a thought... if you got the coax and antenna, I've got an OTA box that's not busy this weekend. Let me know if I should drag along my PC monitor.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I have heard that the KOMO-DT antenna for their digital signal is mounted on the southeast side of their tower, leaving a shadow in the northwest direction because the tower structure somewhat blocks the signal in that direction. I don't know any specifics, but that seems like it might affect your KOMO-DT reception.

Well it turns out this correct. My source at KOMO says it is a sidemount on the ESE side of the tower. There are "nulls" or "shadows" caused by the arrangement and the tower. I am working on getting a plot of the radiation pattern. The whole thing is set up to cover as much of greater Seattle area with the shadows on the west/NW side since very few people live *on* Puget Sound. This explains why some people across the pond have trouble getting KOMO.

Since 'analog' still pays the bills, all the stations have left their analog transmitters on the top of the tower. This will change in a couple years when analog is phased out. Their are also regulations involved in where antennas can be placed. The whole thing is a compromise to give the most people in the area a chance at reception. And since the greatest population density is near downtown...

Anyone know anything about other DT antenna placements? I'd like to know where *all* the "shadows" are.

Larry

hey weebling1. Thats very kind of you to offer your time and services. I actually was able to talk to a man about 3 blocks from me who has hd ota. I was very excited to talk to him. He said he most of the channels. I didn't get a chance on the specific ones, but it's enough to convince me that it's time to get it. I'll post back here once everything is a go so that other people can know whats available out this way. Thanks for everyones help.

Mason

Originally posted by quarque
Well it turns out this correct. My source at KOMO says it is a sidemount on the ESE side of the tower. There are "nulls" or "shadows" caused by the arrangement and the tower. I am working on getting a plot of the radiation pattern. The whole thing is set up to cover as much of greater Seattle area with the shadows on the west/NW side since very few people live *on* Puget Sound. This explains why some people across the pond have trouble getting KOMO.

Since 'analog' still pays the bills, all the stations have left their analog transmitters on the top of the tower. This will change in a couple years when analog is phased out. Their are also regulations involved in where antennas can be placed. The whole thing is a compromise to give the most people in the area a chance at reception. And since the greatest population density is near downtown...

Anyone know anything about other DT antenna placements? I'd like to know where *all* the "shadows" are.

Larry

Did we both hear about this from the same KOMO source: Engineer Don W.?

It has been quite a while since I heard that, so I was not too sure of my statements.

Hi, Larry,

Could you give me an LOS assessment for my location? I have a Panny Plasma on order and initially was just going to use it for DVD and analog cable but, doing more research and reading through this thread, my hopes for OTA HD are being raised! I'm near

121st St. E. and Golden Given Rd. E.
Tacoma, 98445

Fingers crossed! And thanks much.

Keith

I live in Mukilteo and get 4, 5, 7, and 13 digital with a 4248 on my roof, but I have no luck with 9, 11, 22 or 28. Occasionally I have had a momentary picture with 11, and I can quite often get about 1/3 of the way to "normal" with 9 and 11 on my Zenith 520. Don Wilkinson from KOMO lives just up the hill from me (maybe 100' higher) and gets everything with a special antenna in his attic. (Hi Don.) There is a large Douglas fir behind my house which I would love to use to mount a 4228 antenna that I have. Does anyone have any thoughts on the feasibility and legality of doing that? The situation is such that I think very few people would be able to ever see the antenna up there.

Thanks,

Al

Dave - yes, same guy. Retired after 33 years but still involved in the HD project to some extent.

Originally posted by longing
hey weebling1. Thats very kind of you to offer your time and services. I actually was able to talk to a man about 3 blocks from me who has hd ota. I was very excited to talk to him. He said he most of the channels. I didn't get a chance on the specific ones, but it's enough to convince me that it's time to get it. I'll post back here once everything is a go so that other people can know whats available out this way. Thanks for everyones help.

Mason
Mason - I would still not invest "permanent" money in OTA until you can test your location. 3 blocks can make a world of difference in DT reception.

Larry

Originally posted by highvista
Hi, Larry,

Could you give me an LOS assessment for my location? I have a Panny Plasma on order and initially was just going to use it for DVD and analog cable but, doing more research and reading through this thread, my hopes for OTA HD are being raised! I'm near

121st St. E. and Golden Given Rd. E.
Tacoma, 98445

Fingers crossed! And thanks much.

Keith
Keith - your location looks pretty good. You are on a plateau of sorts at about 390 feet. There are no large hills in the way. If you want more than the QA and CH towers you will need a rotor. Use a good antenna like the CM4228 on your roof. But without a rotor and pointing it 6 deg. E of North will get you about 11 DT sub-channels, which is most of the "good stuff".

Good luck and let us know how it goes. I envy you plasma guys...

Larry

Al - I have heard of people doing this but I don't know about the legal issues. I suspect most of the time "nobody of importance" ever knows the antennas are there. And 100 feet in elevation can make a huge difference (Hi Don). Too bad we can't have "community antennas" for this kind of stuff that the folks down in the gully could tap into for reception. I guess that would be too much like communism. Anyway, you might try a preamp before climbing that tree. Sometimes a few db of boost is all that is needed in marginal situations. Do I take it that the 4248 worked better than the 4228?

Larry

Hi Larry. Just hoping you could give me an idea on what I can expect and/or what sort of setup I'll need. I can put up whatever antenna I might need, within reason.

Nearest intersection - 206th St. SE & Welch Rd in Snohomish.

Thanks.

Keith - your location looks pretty good. You are on a plateau of sorts at about 390 feet. There are no large hills in the way. If you want more than the QA and CH towers you will need a rotor. Use a good antenna like the CM4228 on your roof. But without a rotor and pointing it 6 deg. E of North will get you about 11 DT sub-channels, which is most of the "good stuff".

Thanks much for the info, Larry. I've got some trees around, but just east of north is relatively clear, so I'm really hopeful. I have a Samsung SIR-T165 due here on Tuesday, so I'll be able to start trying things out.

I'm really excited for the plasma. I've been waiting for years for them to drop to a semi-reasonable price. Holding out wasn't too hard until my '97 vintage Toshiba DVD player gave up the ghost and I bought a new one with progressive scan capabilities. This pushed me over the edge and convinced me I need something to get all I can out of DVD's. If I can get HD too, it'll be very cool. :)

Larry, I would appreciate any insight on my chances on picking up Seattle HD signals from my home in Bothell/Kenmore...can you please check the following location:

I already bought a CM 4228 and placed it in my attic, however I don't yet have an HD receiver so I am still unsure what my chances are. I did do a quick test hooking the antenna straight to a TV. Channel 22 comes in absolutely clearly, 16 is fairly clear with some ghosting.

Thanks in advance,

Paul

Larry, thanks for the input. I do have a CM UHF preamp with the 4248. I experimented with both the 4228 and the 4248, and at that time I was able to get 16 almost all the time with the 4248 and not at all with the 4228. I was using my Samsung SIRT 165 at the time and didn't find the signal strength readings all that meaningful. The reception is pretty variable at my house however. A couple of nights ago channel 4 was cutting out with the 4248 so I switched to the RS VHF/UHF which normally is much weaker, and the signal was fine. I'd love to combine the two signals with some way of variably phasing the two signals together for different stations, but I don't know nearly enough to do anything like that.

Al

Originally posted by pbishop
Hi Larry. Just hoping you could give me an idea on what I can expect and/or what sort of setup I'll need. I can put up whatever antenna I might need, within reason.

Nearest intersection - 206th St. SE & Welch Rd in Snohomish.

Thanks.
Your elevation is about 420 feet and you have a 520 foot hill about 3/4 mile to the SW. If your antenna were on the ground you would not have LOS to QA or CH towers. But if you can get your antenna at least 30 feet off the ground you would have a good shot at both tower locations. The most popular antenna choices seem to be the Channel Master 4228 and 4248. The 4228 is larger, higher gain and more directional. But as AL_B found out, either one can out perform the other depending on conditions. The main thing for you is height regardless of which antenna. Another good gauge is how is your analog UHF right now? Do you have anything on the roof at present to test this?

Larry

Originally posted by Tivopaul
Larry, I would appreciate any insight on my chances on picking up Seattle HD signals from my home in Bothell/Kenmore...can you please check the following location:

Bothell, WA 98028

I already bought a CM 4228 and placed it in my attic, however I don't yet have an HD receiver so I am still unsure what my chances are. I did do a quick test hooking the antenna straight to a TV. Channel 22 comes in absolutely clearly, 16 is fairly clear with some ghosting.

Thanks in advance,

Paul
Paul - your situation looks pretty good. There is only a slight hill in your path and your attic height may be enough to clear that. Since your analog UHF is pretty good I'd say you have a very good chance. Worst case is perhaps putting the 4228 on the roof with a short mast.

Larry

Originally posted by Al_B
Larry, thanks for the input. I do have a CM UHF preamp with the 4248. I experimented with both the 4228 and the 4248, and at that time I was able to get 16 almost all the time with the 4248 and not at all with the 4228. I was using my Samsung SIRT 165 at the time and didn't find the signal strength readings all that meaningful. The reception is pretty variable at my house however. A couple of nights ago channel 4 was cutting out with the 4248 so I switched to the RS VHF/UHF which normally is much weaker, and the signal was fine. I'd love to combine the two signals with some way of variably phasing the two signals together for different stations, but I don't know nearly enough to do anything like that.

Al
Al - sounds like you are working off reflections for some channels. This is always a dicey situation. There are antenna combiners available for doing what you want, or a cheaper way is a switch (but more of a pain to use). I'm not sure one particular combination would work all the time for all channels.

Larry

Hey guys,

I have a happy update to post. I finally managed to get my CM 4228 mounted, grounded and tuned in this weekend (with some help from my neighbor). I'm in NE Everett near Lake Stevens (about 30+ miles out) and I'm pulling in all the ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, FOX and WB channels (although I need to check and see if I get all the subchannels; I've seen some mentioned that didn't show up yesterday -- perhaps they weren't broadcasting at that time).

Thanks to all of you for your support along the way and answering all my questions. Oh joy!! MNF tonight!!

Larry -- I do have an address I'd love for you to check (my Dad's place; now that I got my house done, I'm going to try and get him set up):


Arlington, WA 98223

This is WAY north and could be a shot in the dark, but I figured it is worth trying!

felthove:

Congratulations on your success! Here are some local HD tidbits that may help you:

KCTS-DT (real channel 41, logical channel 9) does have a varied broadcast schedule. I don't know the precise timing, but they typically broadcast 3 SD sub-channels during the day (9-1, 9-2, and 9-3). In the evenings they have 1 SD channel (9-1) and 1 HD channel (which I receive on 9-2 and 9-5 on my Hughes E86--not sure exactly why).

As far as I know, all of the other DTV stations broadcast 24 hours (or close, matching their analog hours).

KCPQ-DT (ch. 18-1 real, 13-1 logical) also broadcasts KTWB (ch. 18-2 real, 13-2 logical) from their Gold Mountain transmitter near Bremerton.

Similarly, KTWB-DT (ch. 25-1 real, 22-1 logical) also broadcasts KCPQ (ch. 25-2 real, 22-2 logical) from their transmitter on Capitol Hill in Seattle.

Tribune broadcasting owns both stations. They transmit from both locations to provide a larger coverage area for each station. At some point when both stations have increasing amounts of real HD programming, there will be more of a bandwidth/picture qualiy issue.

On my RCA DTC-100, I get OTA PSIP program schedule information on the following stations:
KING-DT (48-1/5-1)
KSTW-DT (36-1/11-1)
KCPQ-DT (18-1/13-1 and 25-2/22-2)
KTWB-DT (25-1/22-1 and 18-2/13-2)

My Hughes E86 gets all OTA program schedule information from DirecTV's Advanced Program Guide (after entering my zipcode). The E86 does not support OTA PSIP program schedule data.

KOMO-DT (38-1/4-1) produces all local news programs and Northwest Afternoon in HD (720p). Their ABC HD programs have Dolby Digital 5.1 audio transmitted, but many (most?) programs do not take advantage of the rear channels much. But ABC HD movies often do. Of course, you are already aware of Monday Night Football.

KING-DT (48-1/5-1) produces portions of their local news in HD. It looks like studio shots without graphics are typically HD but they revert to SD when they add graphics. Evening Magazine is also now produced in HD.

You can read about network HD programming elsewhere on the AVSForum. (You probably already have by now.)

Thanks for the info Dave. I appreciate it. I have a dish 6000 box and as far as I know it doesn't support any type of local programming guide info.
I heard the new Dish 811 box will be like the 6000 in other ways but will have this feature.

I have no personal experience with, nor knowledge of, the Dish 6000 box and its OTA reception. But I will be interested in how things work out for you.

Originally posted by Tivopaul
Larry, I would appreciate any insight on my chances on picking up Seattle HD signals from my home in Bothell/Kenmore...can you please check the following location:

Bothell, WA 98028

I already bought a CM 4228 and placed it in my attic, however I don't yet have an HD receiver so I am still unsure what my chances are. I did do a quick test hooking the antenna straight to a TV. Channel 22 comes in absolutely clearly, 16 is fairly clear with some ghosting.

Thanks in advance,

Paul
Paul,

You aren't all that far from me, and a CM 4228 would be too strong for me, probably giving me a lot of trouble with ghosting. In March '02 I installed a CM 4221 with a Radio Shack Chimney mount kit and I always get all stations at 100%. Keep this in mind in case you have problems when you get your receiver.

Tim

Originally posted by felthove
Hey guys,

I have a happy update to post. I finally managed to get my CM 4228 mounted, grounded and tuned in this weekend (with some help from my neighbor). I'm in NE Everett near Lake Stevens (about 30+ miles out) and I'm pulling in all the ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, FOX and WB channels (although I need to check and see if I get all the subchannels; I've seen some mentioned that didn't show up yesterday -- perhaps they weren't broadcasting at that time).

Thanks to all of you for your support along the way and answering all my questions. Oh joy!! MNF tonight!!

Larry -- I do have an address I'd love for you to check (my Dad's place; now that I got my house done, I'm going to try and get him set up):


Arlington, WA 98223

This is WAY north and could be a shot in the dark, but I figured it is worth trying!

Glad to hear of your success - makes all of this something more than 'chat room'! :)

Ah yes MNF - rather be HD'ing than freezing at Lambeau (and I know about cold since I grew up in WIS.) I am watching it right now in fact (typing between plays).

Your dad's place looks marginal but with a decent antenna mounted high up, he has a chance. The LOS plot shows it just barely misses (or hits) the intervening hills. I would do some tests with your equipment before having him invest lots of $$$. You may have to go up 30 ft. or more. How is his analog UHF reception?

Larry

quarque (Larry),

Really appreciate all the lookups you do for people in this forum. I can only hope that you feel encouraged by all the help you give out.

Was hoping you could give me the details on my location.

I'm at 12207 NE 162nd St, Bothell
I've got my TERK TV36 mounted up 25' pointed WSW 207 degrees. I'm getting about 60% to 80% for KIRO-DT, KOMO-DT, and KCTS-DT. KING-DT, and KTWB-DT are around 30% to 40%.

Any info you can provide?

Thanks,
- ben

Larry,

Just jumped into this thread tonight and my head is spinning with info on which way to go on HDTV. I have Dish (leased) and my path for HDTV will cost about $500 for a 6000U receiver. I also am interested in getting an antenna for the local stations. Can you check on my location, 1097 NE 97th, Seattle.

Also, not sure if this will be a problem, but I have two tall cedar trees in the back of the house, which faces south toward Seattle. They don't completely block my southward view but still, how much interference do trees create for the HDTV signal? Anyway to test this before I commit on a receiver?

Thanks for helping...Ron

Originally posted by ronone10
Just jumped into this thread tonight and my head is spinning with info on which way to go on HDTV. I have Dish (leased) and my path for HDTV will cost about $500 for a 6000U receiver. I also am interested in getting an antenna for the local stations. Can you check on my location, Seattle.


I'm no expert, but have a couple thoughts. If you can get OTA, go for it. It will be some time, (Long time likely) before the small dish providers offer HDTV network programming. The satellite bandwidth simply isn't there for very many HDTV data streams and meeting the rules of local must carry too.

Good Luck!

Hey all -- even though I thought my OTA set up was going fine after one day, I'm realizing that KOMO isn't coming up to Everett as well as the other QA signals (64% compared to about mid-70s and 80% for the others). Is there any potential reason for this?

I recall reading in an earlier part of this thread that there was some "shadow" issue related to the KOMO tower position on the west side of the hill (or something like that). KOMO is the only QA signal that is getting consistent pixelization and sound dropouts (w/ occasional video drop outs, too). It's not bouncing from 0% to 60% to 0% to 60% etc., as others have attributed to multipath. It just stays pretty constant in the low 60s (on my dish 6000 box). Should I try to reposition the antenna?

Thanks!

Ron

felthove: I can't find the page, but someone posted output power for some stations and KOMO & PBS-9 HD were both half that of KING and KIRO

I have the same problem with KOMO. Was trying to watch MNF last night and kept getting digital blocks everywhere. Sort of frustrating as the local feed was in HD and the sat feed just SD and sort of blurry.

The signal strength seems to vary between 76 and 93. I tried getting up in the attic and rotating the Rat Shack U75 to no avail. KING and KIRO come in just fine, so maybe there is some sort of shadow effect.

Larry,
I notice that you that you have been giving LOS info. If it would not be too much trouble, could you run the intersection of 124th Ave. NE and NE 134th Pl. in Kirkland? Oh yeah, which topo map do you use? I have some experience with ArcView GIS.

Thanks,

Allen

I noticed blocks & signal loss when I tuned in too. About +5 degree fixed it. Maybe my darned reflections like Larry warned. Looked good afterward, on a 15" screen :mad:

MNF was messed up last night, it likely wasn't due to your reception. The source signal from ABC nationwide was corrupted with occasional pixilation.
Tom

I agree with TAB. I get rock solid reception of KOMO-DT, but last night's MNF had frequent pixelation. I thought maybe my antenna had moved or something, but I guess not. I also noticed poor contrast on the later shots of the game, while the graphics in the same picure had normal contrast levels. Maybe there was a low light problem?

Originally posted by spainb
quarque (Larry),

Really appreciate all the lookups you do for people in this forum. I can only hope that you feel encouraged by all the help you give out.

Was hoping you could give me the details on my location.

I'm at 12207 NE 162nd St, Bothell
I've got my TERK TV36 mounted up 25' pointed WSW 207 degrees. I'm getting about 60% to 80% for KIRO-DT, KOMO-DT, and KCTS-DT. KING-DT, and KTWB-DT are around 30% to 40%.

Any info you can provide?

Thanks,
- ben
Welcome to the forum Ben. Your LOS plot looks OK. Only a slight hill in your way that your 25' antenna should easily overcome. Are you saying that KING and KTWB are low enough that you have poor reception? I'm not familiar with the TERK TV36 - what basic design is it? BTW, Terk is not very popular on AVS in general. Apparently lots of people have had mediocre results. If you are having trouble you might consider a different antenna or a preamp if there is none inline right now.

Larry

Originally posted by ronone10
Larry,

Just jumped into this thread tonight and my head is spinning with info on which way to go on HDTV. I have Dish (leased) and my path for HDTV will cost about $500 for a 6000U receiver. I also am interested in getting an antenna for the local stations. Can you check on my location, 1097 NE 97th, Seattle.

Also, not sure if this will be a problem, but I have two tall cedar trees in the back of the house, which faces south toward Seattle. They don't completely block my southward view but still, how much interference do trees create for the HDTV signal? Anyway to test this before I commit on a receiver?

Thanks for helping...Ron
Ron - your location looks OK. Any decent antenna in the attic or on your roof should work. Try to locate your antenna so the trees are not dead on line with the towers. QA is 201 deg. and CH is due south. One test that people have used is to compare their analog UHF reception. If it is decent, you have a very good chance at DT.

Larry

Originally posted by alfack
I have the same problem with KOMO. Was trying to watch MNF last night and kept getting digital blocks everywhere. Sort of frustrating as the local feed was in HD and the sat feed just SD and sort of blurry.

The signal strength seems to vary between 76 and 93. I tried getting up in the attic and rotating the Rat Shack U75 to no avail. KING and KIRO come in just fine, so maybe there is some sort of shadow effect.

Larry,
I notice that you that you have been giving LOS info. If it would not be too much trouble, could you run the intersection of 124th Ave. NE and NE 134th Pl. in Kirkland? Oh yeah, which topo map do you use? I have some experience with ArcView GIS.

Thanks,

Allen
Your LOS looks very good. Just watch out for trees, buildings and other assorted problems. I use DeLorme Topo USA with 3D features.

I would like to point out that KOMO's power is 810kW according to KOMO and the FCC. This is on par with most other major stations. I am working on getting a radiation plot for their transmitter. Since it is mounted on the ESE side of the tower, I strongly suspect that those who are north or west are not getting all of that power. But DT can work at even 10% of that power, so problems with individual stations are almost always due to multipath or blockages (trees). The common fixes are: repoint antenna, move antenna, add preamp, different antenna.

Larry

Larry gave me a tentative thumb's up for reception down in in South Tacoma. I'm about 30 miles from QA and CH with fairly good LOS.

I just received my Samsung SIR-T165 and a Zenith Silver Sensor antenna. I figured I probably wouldn't get great reception indoors, but I thought I'd at least get some signal.

But when I have my receiver scan for OTA channels, it just finds a few of the local analog channels (examples include KBTC 28, KTBW 22, KWPX 33). But all the digital channel numbers just show snow. Not a peep from any of them.

Am I doing something terribly wrong? Since I am receiving UHF analog stations, doesn't it make sense I'd get something from the digitals? I'm planning to put up a roof-mounted CM 4221 soon, but I'm wondering if I've got something set up wrong on the receiver or some other newbie mistake. Help! :)

highvista - 30 miles indoors is asking for a lot. Don't sweat it until you get the 4221 on the roof going. Does the 165 have any special menu settings for getting OTA digital? - Larry

Originally posted by quarque
Ron - your location looks OK. Any decent antenna in the attic or on your roof should work. Try to locate your antenna so the trees are not dead on line with the towers. QA is 201 deg. and CH is due south. One test that people have used is to compare their analog UHF reception. If it is decent, you have a very good chance at DT.

Larry

KONG ch 16 UHF broadcasts from Queen Anne Hill (from the KING tower I believe).

KTWB ch 22 UHF broadcasts from Capitol Hill, very near the KCTS and KSTW towers.

So, if you get watchable signals from these two stations, your chances are good that you will get usable reception of the DTV UHF channels from those same locations.

highvista - 30 miles indoors is asking for a lot. Don't sweat it until you get the 4221 on the roof going. Does the 165 have any special menu settings for getting OTA digital? - Larry

Hey, Larry. Thanks for the encouraging words. I can't find any special settings for OTA digital vs. analog. It has inputs for both an antenna and a cable. During set-up, you choose either the antenna or the cable and scan for channels. It doesn't seem to differentiate between OTA channel types.

Originally posted by quarque
Your elevation is about 420 feet and you have a 520 foot hill about 3/4 mile to the SW. If your antenna were on the ground you would not have LOS to QA or CH towers. But if you can get your antenna at least 30 feet off the ground you would have a good shot at both tower locations. The most popular antenna choices seem to be the Channel Master 4228 and 4248. The 4228 is larger, higher gain and more directional. But as AL_B found out, either one can out perform the other depending on conditions. The main thing for you is height regardless of which antenna. Another good gauge is how is your analog UHF right now? Do you have anything on the roof at present to test this?

Larry

Thanks for the lookup!

This is a new house that we'll be moving to in December. It should be relatively easy to get any antenna 30 feet off the ground, since it's two story house. I have a CM 4-bow antenna that I can try initially, but I'll definitely have a profrssional come out and do the final install if I end up having any success.

Hi all, I have been follow this thread for a while and now I want to ask you guys some question. I live in Bellevue(98005), the intersection between I-90 and 405. My house is a 2 story house. I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor from Sears last week and play around with it. I have a Hughes E86 and the TV is on the first level of my house. So I start with 1st floor with the SS antenna and no luck. then I plug in a 50 ft cable and run around my house, and I finally get a strong signal from the CBS channel (70 - 100%) on 2nd level of my house(at the Master bedroom facing the Wall). And I also got a unstable signal from ABC (10%, 40%, 70%, 10%, 0%, 60%....), and it's not really watchable most of the time. No signal from Fox or NBC at all.

So what I think I probably need a outdoor antenna. I heard a lot of good word about the CM 4228. But I wonder if I can use the CM 4221 instead because it's cheaper? Would I get the same result from either Antenna? Also, is that possible to put the CM 4221 indoor instead of outdoor? Since my Indoor SS can get some signal, if I put the CM4221 at the same position, do I get the better result?

My final question is, where can I get the CM 4228 or CM 4221 locally?

Larry, can you please help me to check my location, 2372 132nd Ave. SE, 98005Thanks.

Kevin

So what I think I probably need a outdoor antenna. I heard a lot of good word about the CM 4228. But I wonder if I can use the CM 4221 instead because it's cheaper? Would I get the same result from either Antenna? Also, is that possible to put the CM 4221 indoor instead of outdoor? Since my Indoor SS can get some signal, if I put the CM4221 at the same position, do I get the better result?
Hi babieblackcat. I'm the panicky guy from Tacoma with the SS indoor antenna and a CM 4221 on order.

From my on-line research, it sounds like the 4221 has lower gain but a wider reception area than the 4228. One source said the 4221 does a good job of reception through a 75 degree front angle. The 4228 looks to have the best reception through about a 20 degree front angle. I've ordered the 4221, since the two clusters of stations I want to receive are about 30 degrees apart.

BTW, I did actually get the SS indoor to pick up KCPQ 13-1 and 13-2 by kinda standing in the middle of my living room and holding it just right. So, my SIR-T165 does do the job of tuning HD just fine, but I definitely need that outdoor antenna.

Originally posted by quarque

I would like to point out that KOMO's power is 810kW according to KOMO and the FCC. This is on par with most other major stations. I am working on getting a radiation plot for their transmitter. Since it is mounted on the ESE side of the tower, I strongly suspect that those who are north or west are not getting all of that power. But DT can work at even 10% of that power, so problems with individual stations are almost always due to multipath or blockages (trees). The common fixes are: repoint antenna, move antenna, add preamp, different antenna.

Larry

What about this earlier post -- is it inaccurate?

"I found some station info that probably explains why I don't get KCTS or KOMO - their transmitter power is a lot lower than the stations I do get:

48 - KING-DT - 960KW - 80% - solid
39 - KIRO-DT - 603KW - 75% - solid
25 - KTWB-DT - ??? - 70% - solid
38 - KOMO-DT - 405KW - 38% - no picture
41 - KCTS-DT - 427KW - 44% - no picture

Do you think a pre-amp could help in this case?"

Ooops posted as new thread instead of here so this is a repost.

Hello,
I finally got myself a decent antenna (RadShack 70) after not having much luck with the double bowtie and some other radShack pieces of ****.
I have it setup next to the tv but it will eventually go into the attic of my place.
I haven't followed the forum for a while so which channels are broadcast in Seattle in HD? My TitanTV digital listing lists 18 of them but I dont think they're all HD.

In a quick test last nite I'm pulling in:
UPN 36 (36-1)
ABC 38 (4-1)
CBS 39 (7-1)
PBS 41 (9-1)
NBC 48 (5-1)
IND 50 (51-1)
FOX 25 (22-2)

I couldnt get:
PBS 41 (9-2)

Are any of these stations running loops of stunning footage that is good for showing off the friends with at certain times of the day?

I'm at intersection of 18th Ave and 5th Place in Kirkland and have a Panasonic DirectTV HD receiver - unfortunately it doesnt have a signal meter - I'm basically using it for OTA and dont subscribe to the DTVHD package as I'm holding out for the HDDirectTivo next year.

Thanks,
Matt

Larry, New to forum and wondering about my location before investing in OTA equipment. Address is 20621 3rd pl w., Lynnwood, 98036. Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by felthove
What about this earlier post -- is it inaccurate?

"I found some station info that probably explains why I don't get KCTS or KOMO - their transmitter power is a lot lower than the stations I do get:

48 - KING-DT - 960KW - 80% - solid
39 - KIRO-DT - 603KW - 75% - solid
25 - KTWB-DT - ??? - 70% - solid
38 - KOMO-DT - 405KW - 38% - no picture
41 - KCTS-DT - 427KW - 44% - no picture

Do you think a pre-amp could help in this case?"

KOMO was at 405kW temporarily - they have been back at 810kW for quite some time. KTWB is at 1000kW. The rest are correct.

A preamp could help in cases where you have a low but steady signal. If the level jumps all over the problem is most likely multipath interference. In that case repointing the antenna can help. Or try a different location or different antenna.

Larry

Originally posted by gdoc89
Larry, New to forum and wondering about my location before investing in OTA equipment. Address is 20621 3rd pl w., Lynnwood, 98036. Thanks in advance!
Welcome to the forum. Lot's of good people and info to be found here.

No problem in terms of hills. Watch out for the usual (trees, buildings, birds...)

Just a thought, I don't want to be an alarmist, but perhaps people should not be posting their exact address on the internet. It occurs to me you never know who is lurking on these things and what sort of ideas they may get about expensive HD equipment. I generally ask for the nearest intersection for that very reason when I do LOS plots. If you live on steep terrain or want more accurate/personal information, you may send me a PM.

Larry

Originally posted by AussieMatt

...

I couldnt get:
PBS 41 (9-2)

Are any of these stations running loops of stunning footage that is good for showing off the friends with at certain times of the day?

Thanks,
Matt
The station list has been covered in this forum and in this thread several times - do a search or page through this thread.

PBS has 4 sub-channels, 9-1,9-2,9-3,9-5. Only some of them are active at any one time. The best demo loop type stuff is on 9-5 in the evenings. Look for the "Over..." series of aerial tours. Quite spectacular. Most of the digital transmission time is still non-HD. The networks all show some HD during the week in prime time. CBS shows some football in HD on weekends. Enterprise is now in HD along with some other UPN stuff.

Larry, Thanks for the info and the heads up. No expensive HD gear here! Nope. Wouldn't be prudent!

Originally posted by babieblackcat
Hi all, I have been follow this thread for a while and now I want to ask you guys some question. I live in Bellevue(98005), the intersection between I-90 and 405. My house is a 2 story house. I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor from Sears last week and play around with it. I have a Hughes E86 and the TV is on the first level of my house. So I start with 1st floor with the SS antenna and no luck. then I plug in a 50 ft cable and run around my house, and I finally get a strong signal from the CBS channel (70 - 100%) on 2nd level of my house(at the Master bedroom facing the Wall). And I also got a unstable signal from ABC (10%, 40%, 70%, 10%, 0%, 60%....), and it's not really watchable most of the time. No signal from Fox or NBC at all.

So what I think I probably need a outdoor antenna. I heard a lot of good word about the CM 4228. But I wonder if I can use the CM 4221 instead because it's cheaper? Would I get the same result from either Antenna? Also, is that possible to put the CM 4221 indoor instead of outdoor? Since my Indoor SS can get some signal, if I put the CM4221 at the same position, do I get the better result?

My final question is, where can I get the CM 4228 or CM 4221 locally?

Larry, can you please help me to check my location, 2372 132nd Ave. SE, 98005Thanks.

Kevin
Kevin - your LOS does not look good. You are at about 75 feet and there is a 330 foot hill 1/2 mile to the west. Your reception will be mostly based on reflections off buildings and/or refractions off that hill. Your best bet would be a high-gain directional antenna like the CM4228 mounted as high above your roof as you can possibly get it. Add a rotor while you're up there. And even then you may not get solid reliable DT from all QA or CH or Bremerton or Tacoma. But some people have gotten very lucky with reflected signals so you will just have to try it. I would not even think about indoor mounting. The 4228 is better for marginal situations like yours. I think Pringle Electronics in Everett carries CM. Hey - at least you have PAX and shopping on the eastside...

Thanks for finding that reference felthove, but we stand corrected.

I'm still feeling no love from PBS 9. The sub channels 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-4 & 9-5. Aren't they on unique frequencies, 41 etc, or am I not using the Samsung 165 correctly? Analog 4 shows a sub channel 4-1, but then I have to channel up to get there. Same with 5, 7, and 13. Channel 9 doesn't show me any others period.

What am I missing here??

Maybe all my stations are reflections (that 550'+hill in Bothel)
and 9 just WON'T.

Thanks Larry, you answered all the questions I asked. I appreciated your help.
I will order the antenna and give it a try.

Yeah, thanks Larry. I still get some serious pixelation on KOMO, even with a 79-100 signal. The weird thing is, I tried an amplifier and the signal strength became weaker, as I turned up the gain. Maybe the fluctuating signal strength is due to reflections. Will have to try outside of attic or something.

Allen

Originally posted by weebling1
Thanks for finding that reference felthove, but we stand corrected.

I'm still feeling no love from PBS 9. The sub channels 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-4 & 9-5. Aren't they on unique frequencies, 41 etc, or am I not using the Samsung 165 correctly? Analog 4 shows a sub channel 4-1, but then I have to channel up to get there. Same with 5, 7, and 13. Channel 9 doesn't show me any others period.

What am I missing here??

Maybe all my stations are reflections (that 550'+hill in Bothel)
and 9 just WON'T.
On my Samsung T150 you can tune the digital channel first (41 in this case) and if it picks up anything it will list all the sub-channels. They are all part of digital channel 41. Once that happens you can then tune to '9' and see the 9-1...9-5 listed. So there is a 'registration' step where it maps the sub-channels. I found the manual tuning method to work better than the auto-scan method when signals are marginal. My guess is that you are getting reflections on PBS and it is not helped by the lower power they run at (half of 4,5,7). Try changing the antenna direction slightly in each direction while tuned to 41.

Larry

Originally posted by alfack
Yeah, thanks Larry. I still get some serious pixelation on KOMO, even with a 79-100 signal. The weird thing is, I tried an amplifier and the signal strength became weaker, as I turned up the gain. Maybe the fluctuating signal strength is due to reflections. Will have to try outside of attic or something.

Allen
If the amplifier made things worse then your problem is not too little signal. It is most likely multipath interference - the curse of HD reception. Definitely try moving your antenna (to several different locations) and note the changes for each channel. You may find a happy medium somewhere. Attics can be notorius for reflections depending on what is in your roof and walls. Moving outside can make a huge difference.

Larry

Per request, a number of personal addresses have been removed. An AVS Private Message would be a better way to communicate this information.

Thank you Ken.

Hi quarque. I live in the Maple Valley area at the intersection of 248th St and 214th Ave SE. I currently have Comcast HDTV, but am investigating the use of OTA due to the limited availability of local channels. Would you be willing to advise me on the ability to receive Seattle and Tacome HD broadcasts? Thanks much!

I'm having difficulty picking up the antenna's from Capital Hill 25, 36 and 41. My intersection is 55th and 88th in Mukilteo 98275.

Channels 18, 38, 39 and 48 are 90%

I have a Channel Master 4228 about 20 feet off the ground.

I have tried moving it up and down 6+ feet and pointing it from 160 to 210 deg's but don't get any signal from these.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Derek

Hi Derek

I'm on 58th Place West off 92nd ST SW just 1/4 mile south of you, and I have the same problem receiving the Capital Hill stations that you have. My guess is that you won't get them unless you can find a way to get your antenna a lot higher. Good luck.

Al

Originally posted by mlc5967
Hi quarque. I live in the Maple Valley area at the intersection of 248th St and 214th Ave SE. I currently have Comcast HDTV, but am investigating the use of OTA due to the limited availability of local channels. Would you be willing to advise me on the ability to receive Seattle and Tacome HD broadcasts? Thanks much!
You do not have direct LOS to QA or CH towers. But the hills in your way are only marginally too high. You may be able to pick reflections or refractions of OTA signals. Many people have had some success even though there were hills in the way. I would try to borrow some equipment and test your location or find a store with a generous return policy.

Originally posted by derekjsmith
I'm having difficulty picking up the antenna's from Capital Hill 25, 36 and 41. My intersection is 55th and 88th in Mukilteo 98275.

Channels 18, 38, 39 and 48 are 90%

I have a Channel Master 4228 about 20 feet off the ground.

I have tried moving it up and down 6+ feet and pointing it from 160 to 210 deg's but don't get any signal from these.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Derek
Derek - your LOS to either hill is marginal. You have hills that just barely block the transmitters. Getting your antenna up higher should help. Note that 41's power is about half of the others and is difficult to get for some people. Your heading for CH is dead on due south. Also look for trees or something in this path that may be different from the path to QA hill (6 deg west of due south). Perhaps moving your antenna east or west (if possible) would help.

Larry

Thanks much, quarque:-)

Larry,

I want to attempt OTA but before I do I was hoping you could check my location. I am at Redmond Way (aka: 85th St.) and 148th Ave, in Redmond 98052.

Thanks,
Mark

Originally posted by fingyueng
Larry,

I want to attempt OTA but before I do I was hoping you could check my location. I am at Redmond Way (aka: 85th St.) and 148th Ave, in Redmond 98052.

Thanks,
Mark
Mark - it does not look good. Your elevation is about 170 feet and WSW of you is a 480 foot hill. People have had some success with reflected and refracted signals but you will have no direct LOS to QA or CH towers. I would try to borrow someone's receiver to check your location before investing any serious money.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks, I was hoping this wasn't going to be the case.

- Mark

Interesting because I do get channel 22 analog with a fairly clean picture but none of the digitals :( Does any know what the height and power of 22?

Originally posted by derekjsmith
I'm having difficulty picking up the antenna's from Capital Hill 25, 36 and 41. My intersection is 55th and 88th in Mukilteo 98275.

Channels 18, 38, 39 and 48 are 90%

I have a Channel Master 4228 about 20 feet off the ground.

I have tried moving it up and down 6+ feet and pointing it from 160 to 210 deg's but don't get any signal from these.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Derek

Originally posted by derekjsmith
Interesting because I do get channel 22 analog with a fairly clean picture but none of the digitals :( Does any know what the height and power of 22?
KTWB analog 22 is running at 5000kW and the antenna is 600 feet off the ground (1000 ft above sea level). This is slightly higher than other digitals. And their digital antenna is at 1070 ft above sea level. You are probably getting reflections off something. Try moving your antenna laterally east-west if possible.

origionaly posted by quarque KTWB analog 22 is running at 5000kW and the antenna is 600 feet off the ground (1000 ft above sea level). This is slightly higher than other digitals. And their digital antenna is at 1070 ft above sea level. You are probably getting reflections off something.

So there is hope in sight for improved reception!
I would assume that those other digital antennas will move up as the standard is implemented ( 4 more years?)

Larry, can you (or anyone else!) explain the reflected signals a little for us? I think many of us are receiving stations that should be very difficult per line of site. What are they reflecting off? Mountains? Atmospheric layers?

Derek, I sent you a PM. If you are interested let me know. If not, no sweat.

Al

Originally posted by weebling1
So there is hope in sight for improved reception!
I would assume that those other digital antennas will move up as the standard is implemented ( 4 more years?)

Larry, can you (or anyone else!) explain the reflected signals a little for us? I think many of us are receiving stations that should be very difficult per line of site. What are they reflecting off? Mountains? Atmospheric layers?
As I understand it, the digital transmitters will replace the analog ones at the top of most towers. I'm not sure how KTWB digital is already *above* the analog. So, yes, in 4 years or so, things will get better. Even before that, many will increase their power, I hope.

UHF rarely reflects off anything atmospheric, AFAIK. Most reflections are off buildings or other solid objects (sometimes mountains if very close by). Signals also refract (bend) around sharp edges to some degree.

I wish there was a device that would let one see exactly where *all* the signals are coming from at any given location. Perhaps a very directional antenna and a painstaking search with a signal level meter would give some idea, but it is still not very exacting. I'm afraid it is all too much trial and error, unfotunately.

A tidbit on antennas: I noticed that Fry's Electronics has a store in Renton and they carry some Channel Master models (and other mfg.). They may be able to order particular models if they don't stock them. They have a good reputation according to a friend of mine who dealt with them in California a lot. Renton location: 800 Garden Ave. North (425) 525-0200

THANKS for the heads-up on Fry's! I've been there, but not noticed the antenna stuff. I know they're big in other parts of the country.

That place is a home electronincs dream! If you have any interest in computer hardware, software, or supplies you must check it out!
BUT watch your prices. (A Sony 50XBR800 shouldn't even be labeled $4*** these days) EDIT: they' marked it down a grand

Gee, you don't suppose they saw your post about prices do you?

interesting idea, think I can get a discount?

No, I think they got the WE610 series (first 60" I've seen in the flesh)
and realized last years models shouldn't cost MORE.

They didn't have Channel Master antenna's on the floor, but do have Terk. I was hoping to see a CM4248. I'm thinking a second antenna that's more direction oriented might add enough gain to pull in my marginal or unlockable signals ( thanks AL_B for the idea)
My CM4228 gets the strong signals over a 30+degree range. I think it's more of a signal hand grenade.

Weebling:
I've got a 4248 on my roof if you are interested in driving by to see what one looks like. I'm near you just off 132nd St SE. PM me for address if interested. I'd recommend a rotator too.

Locally Pringles in Everett carries CM antennas, or you can find them cheaper over the internet. Verify any store's return policy in case it doesn't work out for you.
Tom

Weebling if you want to try a 4248 before buying it wouldn't be difficult for me to take mine down and let you try it. PM me if you are interested. I even had a Televes for a while and thought the 4248 was a little better. If I had a little better signal strength I would definitely prefer the 4228 for the larger angle it picks up, which means I wouldn't have to rotate it as much.

Al

WOW!

Thanks for the support guys!

I think I'll check out Pringle's tomorrow and see if they can beat a price of $54 shipped from the web. I did get a rotor for my 4228, that and a preamp gets me a touchy KONG-DT 16-1. I'm hoping the combined gain and better direction capability can even get me KCTS 9.

Like quarque's sig states, I've already spent 3 grand for a TV,
(please come next week, PLEASE!) what's another $50??

I have been watching HD TV in Port Townsend for over two years using my computer, an Access DTV card and a 20 inch monitor. This set up was upstairs in my two story house with a CM 3671 antenna on a rotator located on the roof. (short cable run to my computer) I got channels 48, 41, 39, 32, 25, and 18 reliably for quite a while. I didn't watch a lot because, after all, it was only on a computer monitor. I recently got a plasma display and moved the computer down to the living room. (longer cable run from the antenna?) The computer ran the plasma display beautifully. I got good digital reception for a couple of weeks, then the problems began to occur. The first few minutes of the digital programming would be poor. Seemingly after the card and computer got "warmed up" things would stabilize. I never had this problem on the analog channels or the computer desktop. Now the only digital channels I can receive are 18 and 25. The analog channels come in just fine but it is painful to watch them along with all their flaws so brilliantly magnified on the plasma. Has anything changed in the last two weeks regarding digital transmissions in the Seattle area, or do I need to examine my antenna, cabling, connections, card and the other difficult stuff? I live near 19th and Landes and have (I believe) a clear view of the spot where the antennas are located. There is a big fir tree whose top is sort of in the way but it was there when I was getting good reception. Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Steve

I called Pringles at one point and they wanted like $85 for the CM 4228 (plus tax). You can get it from solidsignal.com for $50 plus $15 shipping (no tax).

I found the best masts at Lowe's in 5 and 10 foot lengths, and they have a nice protective coating on them.

Home depot had the best/cheapest grounding wire; $.13/foot for 10 gauge ground wire.

I bought my eve mount kit at radio shack.

I have just put up a 4221 on my chimney, and am getting lovely results on most of the channels, except for 25 (KTWB) and 41 (KCTS). KTWB is pixellated all the time, and won't lock in at all at night. KCTS is fine during the day but won't lock in at night. I am using a Panasonic DST-50 because I want the firewire output for my DVHS deck (JVC 30000).

The antenna installer showed me the signal strengths on all the channels, and if anything they were a little hot. He added a 10 db attenuator to knock them down to a better level.

I'm assuming I'm suffering from some kind of multipath combined with a receiver that isn't great at dealing with multipath. I'm considering a Samsung T-165 or the new MIT MDR200. Both of these supposedly have issues with not setting timed recordings properly if the station doesn't have their clock set right.

Do any of the Seattle stations routinely have their clocks set wrong?

Does anyone have any thoughts about the T165 vs. the MDR200?

Does anyone have any ideas of how to get better reception with the equipment I have?

Best,
Don

Originally posted by dmunsil
I have just put up a 4221 on my chimney, and am getting lovely results on most of the channels, except for 25 (KTWB) and 41 (KCTS). KTWB is pixellated all the time, and won't lock in at all at night. KCTS is fine during the day but won't lock in at night. I am using a Panasonic DST-50 because I want the firewire output for my DVHS deck (JVC 30000).

The antenna installer showed me the signal strengths on all the channels, and if anything they were a little hot. He added a 10 db attenuator to knock them down to a better level.

I'm assuming I'm suffering from some kind of multipath combined with a receiver that isn't great at dealing with multipath. I'm considering a Samsung T-165 or the new MIT MDR200. Both of these supposedly have issues with not setting timed recordings properly if the station doesn't have their clock set right.

Do any of the Seattle stations routinely have their clocks set wrong?

Does anyone have any thoughts about the T165 vs. the MDR200?

Does anyone have any ideas of how to get better reception with the equipment I have?

Best,
Don
Don - my Samsung T150 consistantly shows KOMO as 8 hours earlier than it should be. The other stations are usually within 10 minutes of correct time. I don't think I would want to rely on station time for anything just yet.

My guess on reception is that 25 and 41 are suffering from multipath. 41 is also lower power than most. The 4221 has a wider reception lobe than some other antennas. One thing to try is putting a rotor on it and search out an alternate path. Other options are to try changing the height or location. A few feet can make a big difference sometimes. I would also replace the attenuator with a variable one near the STB so you can adjust signal levels easily. 0-20dB range if possible.

Larry

Originally posted by felthove
I called Pringles at one point and they wanted like $85 for the CM 4228 (plus tax). You can get it from solidsignal.com for $50 plus $15 shipping (no tax).

I found the best masts at Lowe's in 5 and 10 foot lengths, and they have a nice protective coating on them.

Home depot had the best/cheapest grounding wire; $.13/foot for 10 gauge ground wire.

I bought my eve mount kit at radio shack.

Great info Ron. Has anyone talked to Fry's in Renton about their price on a 4228?

Originally posted by bellbuoy
I have been watching HD TV in Port Townsend for over two years using my computer, an Access DTV card and a 20 inch monitor. This set up was upstairs in my two story house with a CM 3671 antenna on a rotator located on the roof. (short cable run to my computer) I got channels 48, 41, 39, 32, 25, and 18 reliably for quite a while. I didn't watch a lot because, after all, it was only on a computer monitor. I recently got a plasma display and moved the computer down to the living room. (longer cable run from the antenna?) The computer ran the plasma display beautifully. I got good digital reception for a couple of weeks, then the problems began to occur. The first few minutes of the digital programming would be poor. Seemingly after the card and computer got "warmed up" things would stabilize. I never had this problem on the analog channels or the computer desktop. Now the only digital channels I can receive are 18 and 25. The analog channels come in just fine but it is painful to watch them along with all their flaws so brilliantly magnified on the plasma. Has anything changed in the last two weeks regarding digital transmissions in the Seattle area, or do I need to examine my antenna, cabling, connections, card and the other difficult stuff? I live near 19th and Landes and have (I believe) a clear view of the spot where the antennas are located. There is a big fir tree whose top is sort of in the way but it was there when I was getting good reception. Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Steve
Steve - I checked your LOS to QA and you do indeed have a clear shot. Nothing has changed that I know of regarding the network stations. You could be suffering from signal deterioration due to the onset of rain storms lately. Have you checked that the cable connections are all weather tight? Go over everything starting right at the antenna, retighten & reseal all the way down to the STB. Does your analog UHF look any worse than it did a month ago? Do you have lots of ghost images? Perhaps try an inline amplifier since you are so far away.

Larry

Steve : I'd start with the easiest and cheapest part like Larry said, the cable & connections. Last house I was in over time some cable channels would start going fuzzy. I'd undo and reconnect the connections and it would be good for another month or two. (no more making cable ends for me until I practice with a pro!)

Originally posted by quarque
Don - my Samsung T150 consistantly shows KOMO as 8 hours earlier than it should be. The other stations are usually within 10 minutes of correct time. I don't think I would want to rely on station time for anything just yet.

Darn. Why can't this be easier? Both of the best options for OTA reception with firewire get their clock from the stations, and the stations can't be bothered to keep their clock signal accurate. Grrrr...

The main thing I want out of this system is timed recording. I never seem to be available when shows are on, and I hate watching live TV ever since getting Tivo. Perhaps I just need to suck it up until the HD Tivo comes out.

My guess on reception is that 25 and 41 are suffering from multipath. 41 is also lower power than most. The 4221 has a wider reception lobe than some other antennas. One thing to try is putting a rotor on it and search out an alternate path. Other options are to try changing the height or location. A few feet can make a big difference sometimes. I would also replace the attenuator with a variable one near the STB so you can adjust signal levels easily. 0-20dB range if possible.

Thanks much for the info. I hate rotors for a variety of reasons, but I'll try the variable attenuator. Can't hurt to give it a try, and I think I have one in my toolbox. I don't feel great about getting up on my roof, but maybe the antenna installer would be willing to come out and see if tweaking the location or aiming point will make a difference.

It's strange that 25 and 41 would have more multipath than the other stations. I have no large buildings or obstructions between me and the towers (I'm in Kirkland, with a clear view from my roof across the water to the towers). Whatever the issue is, it's clear that the receiver is not the best. I hooked up a SAT520 I borrowed from a friend, and it worked fine on all stations with excellent signal strength (heck, it worked fine with an indoor Silver Sensor), but of course it doesn't have firewire.

Again, many thanks!

Don

It's worth noting that KOMO has been consistently helpful when forum members have contacted them with issues. I'll bet that if the clock issue is brought to their attention, they would correct it. Now if it continually drifts, that might be another matter.

I posted a couple weeks ago after getting a Samsung SIR-T165. I started out trying an indoor Silver Sensor antenna, which was definitely a long shot at my location about 30 miles south of the towers. I was barely able to get KCPQ if I carefully aligned the antenna, but that was it.

I tried out both a CM-4221 and CM-4228 mounted on the roof--about 15 feet above ground level. The CM-4228 does just a bit better and is going to be what I'm staying with. I was getting most channels but at a very low signal level of one to three bars. Both KSTW and KIRO almost never came in at all.

I put a CM-7775 preamp on the 4228, and the difference is amazing. All the major channels are now coming in with 100% signal strength, including KSTW and KIRO. I may be having some multi-pathing with KIRO, because it has been doing the old "100% to 0" thing once in a while. I may tweak the antenna positioning a bit and see if that helps.

The FAQ on antenna basics at hdtvprimer.com mentions that the author's SIR-T165 needed a strong preamp for acceptable performance. My experience seems to be in line with that.

Well...since I'm too cheap to get a dish and Comcast isn't doing HD in my area for quite some time, I figure I'd try some OTA stuff with my new Samsung HLN467W DLP TV. I am not using an external tuner and will be using the integrated tuner on the 467.

Given that, I have a 30 meter length of coax cable that I can use to run an attic or outdoor antenna, but figured I'd try the Silver Sensor first.

I was thinking of picking up some kind of antenna today and have been browsing the forums...

I'm on SE 22nd Place in Sammamish just up the hill/road from East Lake Sammamish. I doubt I'd have any LOS issues, but there are trees if that makes a difference.

So...antenna and setup choices. Should I try a Silver Sensor? (I'm bothered by the fact that it's UHF only) or should I try something else? Lowe's up the street carries ChannelMaster incase I want to go that route.

I notice most people here use external tuners....anyone have any experience with an integrated tuner? I read a lot of the archives and didn't see anyone mention it.

Thanks in advance!

Or how about one of the little Gemini indoors? They're fairly cheap and for $24 it will do VHF/UHF and is amplified. Maybe worth a try?

Here is the link to Lowes.
http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=214950-578-SCA050

bjwhite, I believe most of us weren't blessed with intergrated tuners. perhaps someone in the HDTV hardware section has some reception experience for you.

Do you have access to any kind of antenna currently? Anything to test with, something old on your roof?, bow tie UHF? or rabbit ears , would be a good start. I personally have no experience with the indoor ones being too far out, but maybe your LOS can do it.

Well...ain't I just stupid. For some reason I thought the tuner integrated into the HLN467 was HD as well. I now see that's not the case. Well ain't that just a bummer.

Guess I'll take back my little indoor useless POS I bought for $24.

Can anyone give me an update on which PBS (KCTS) channels broadcast HD content? From what I've been seeing it is just 41-02, right (I think there is a mirror channel that shows up as 9-02 too)? Thanks.

And, can anyone else back me up on the poor quality relative to other HD channels? Is this due to (I think) multicasting?

Hey guys -- here is a follow up that will hopefully clarify my question. An earlier post states:

"9 SDTV, very good reception
9-1 HDTV, excellent reception, (seems to be 4:3 format though)
9-2 HDTV, excellent reception (also KCTS HDTV, but different program than 9-1)
9-3 HDTV, NO reception. Labeled as "learn" channel, but nothing received.
9-5 HDTV, excellent reception (same as 9-1, but in 16:9 format)

41-2 HDTV, another KCTS repeater like 9-5"

and another states that:

"41-2 IS one of the digital channels for 9, not a "repeater". Some receivers like my Samsung don't call out both sets of numbers once they are "mapped" by the receiver. 9-2,9-3 are only on during the day."

My question is: are 41-2 and 9-5 the only channels broadcasted by KCTS in 16x9 HD? If so, what are the actual channel numbers for these channels if I want to add them in manually? Right now I only get 41-2 when I scan for digital and I'm not sure what its "real" number is. Thanks!

Ron, AFAIK, KCTS-DT only broadcasts one program channel in HD, and then only during the evening hours. The real channel shows up as both 41-2 and 41-5, depending on the receiver being used for me. In reality, there is only one HD subchannel. Apparently the PSIP channel mapping (real to virtual, i.e., 41 to 9) is somehow mixed up when interpreted by some OTA HD receivers. In any event, on my receiver that tunes in both 9-2 (evening) and 9-5, the HD content is identical (and only occasionally the same as the SD content on 9-1 and analog 9, depending on the specific programs being aired).

Has something changed in the KCTS broadcast strength lately?
I finally got my HDTV last night and for some reason my SIRT-165 recognized 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-4, and 9-5 for the first time. (although very touchy signal and it went nuts and rebooted to the hello text the first time)
All I did was move the OTA receiver and connect a different TV.

I've read through this entire (beefy) thread looking to see if anyone is trying to receive OTA digital in my area but no luck. I live on the fifth floor of a building in Pioneer Square in downtown Seattle. I suspect I have excellent LOS to QA and CH when it comes to hills but peg the meter when it comes to non-hill related issues like frickin' BIG MASSIVE 500' BUILDINGS. I haven't actually tried anything yet because I was trying to figure out what config would have the best chance. I'm thinking that a silver sensor with an atenuator is a good start.

Unbelievably and sadly, OTA is my only HD option. My building is serviced by Millenium Digital Cable and they won't be providing HD for at least another two years. As for satellite, the Directv dish on the roof doesn't have HD capability and even if I could talk them into a dish upgrade, they claim the building requires significant rewiring to make it work. :(

Does anyone here have any experience with a dense urban area?

-J-

Railbird - from what I've seen your situation is a total crap-shoot. Your best bet is a *highly* directional antenna and an attenuator as you mentioned. The SS is probably a good place to start. It may take lots of experimentation and patience. But people have had success in similar circumstances. Try reading the Chicago or NYC threads for people in the same boat. I have not seen many questions here about Seattle's downtown area except for one person who was on the wrong side of the building - don't think he ever reported back on results. Is your antenna limited to indoor mounting?

Larry

Originally posted by weebling1
Has something changed in the KCTS broadcast strength lately?
I finally got my HDTV last night and for some reason my SIRT-165 recognized 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-4, and 9-5 for the first time. (although very touchy signal and it went nuts and rebooted to the hello text the first time)
All I did was move the OTA receiver and connect a different TV.
Don't know about changes in strength but my T150 still shows the same old 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-5 as it has been for months. I've never seen a 9-4 subchannel, but then I don't check for new things that often. It might be some experimentation going on.

If I knew that the results would be worth it, I could try to talk the building management into letting me put something on the roof but I don't know how much work it would be to route the signal to my unit. And there is an added question about asthetics since my building is one closely tied into historic preservation. They have a pretty high parapet across the front of the building and of course, a satellite dish so maybe the biggest issue is the install requirements. I guess I'll just give the SS a try and see what happens. Thanks much!

-J-

"the Directv dish on the roof doesn't have HD capability and even if I could talk them into a dish upgrade, they claim the building requires significant rewiring to make it work"

If your building is already wired for D* I'm surprised that it would take significant rewiring to upgrade to an HD dish. Sounds fishy to me. You may want to pursue this further, although that won't help much with local/network HD -- going to have to keep working on the OTA for that content. Good luck.

Well guys, I got my LG 3100A yesterday and this is one cool STB!

This was my first experience with HDTV in my house. I still have the CM4221 antenna leaning against one of the speakers in the room and I got all locals on the initial channel scan! Chalk up another Silver Firs area success story.

This is a very nice unit. The PQ is incredible on my Panny 50" plasma and channel changing is quite fast. This unit allows the native signal to be sent to the TV, which I am doing. I also tried forcing output to 720p, but I could not tell a difference.

Enterprise in HD was pretty stunning, too bad the story wasn't compelling enough to keep me on that channel :) My wife and I watched the scenic HD loops on KCTS last night -- very much a window effect on those shots, but the brightness seemed to be cranked up too much on that content -- blacks were very grey. I believe these were produced back in 1995, so that may explain it via being early produced content.

After watching the OTA channels for a while, I hooked up Comcast to the box and reran the channel scan. This STB is QAM enabled, and I was able to pick up all the advertised HD channels and then some. Comcast must be very close to an agreement with KING and KONG, because I was able to watch these channels last night on 112-1 and 112-2, respectively. However, there were several times that the signal dropped out or pixelated on both channels so it is not quite ready. I don't watch it, but West Wing looked really good.

I also picked up ESPNHD, and several other SD channels that are being put on the wire in QAM. I found the History Channel, which I thought was odd. Lots of music channels, too. LOTS. Some with the SD banner page explaining the artist/song/etc, some not.

Now I just need to get that antenna put in the attic!

-Lance

Congrats.

Just wanted to give a heads up for the people in Monroe. I got my stb and the RS $20 uhf antenna w/rg59 hanging out the window hooked up, and got king, kiro, komo, fox, and wb during the day. From what i've been reading pbs only broadcasts at night, so I hope to get it as well. One I get my antenna mounted on top of my roof and use rg6 I think I'll be good to go. Right now I'm watching it on a 9" tv/vcr combo till the theater room is done. So, in closing, anyone wondering about Monroe, you should have sucess. Wha who.

-Mason

origionally posted by Ikinley Enterprise in HD was pretty stunning,

Your picking up UPN?!?! thats amazing reception! Sounds like that LG 3100A is a truly superior box. Did you view INHD & INHD2?

Originally posted by weebling1
Your picking up UPN?!?! thats amazing reception! Sounds like that LG 3100A is a truly superior box.

Yep, at about 50% signal strength. The antenna is just leaning against the tower speaker pointed in the general direction of Seattle! I did not expect to get UPN given that they directionally broadcast to Tacoma.

It's weird, because the LG box was reported to be less sensitive than the Samsungs due to better multipath filtering.

I'm certainly not complaining!

-Lance

Anyone else have problems during Scrubs and ER last night on KING? The signal strength would jump from 80% to 30% and the picture/sound would drop out and pixelize.

I have a hard time believing this is a reception problem when the signal strength drops that much for 1-2 seconds. No other channels were having problems.

-Lance

Originally posted by weebling1
Your picking up UPN?!?! thats amazing reception! Sounds like that LG 3100A is a truly superior box. Did you view INHD & INHD2?

I'm even farther north than Silver Firs, Up in the eastmont area (almost all the way down into the valley) and I'm blocked by a 400' hill, and I get UPN, WB, Kong, pretty good. No King, Fox, and I only get Kiro and Komo sporadically. This just using a myhd-100 card, which isn't known for being one of the best recievers for weak signals.
Rick

Originally posted by lkinley
Anyone else have problems during Scrubs and ER last night on KING? The signal strength would jump from 80% to 30% and the picture/sound would drop out and pixelize.

I have a hard time believing this is a reception problem when the signal strength drops that much for 1-2 seconds. No other channels were having problems.

-Lance
Lance - this is most definitely a "reception problem" and a rather common one. The station power output is extremely steady. Most likely you are receiving a reflected signal as either your primary source or as interference. If it is worse on windy days I would look for nearby trees. Most people have to hunt around for the best antenna location because it is always a compomise between the various towers and reflections of each.

Larry

OTA is driving me mad!

I on the other side of the valley and currently get KOMO, KING, KIRO, KONG, KCTS (spotty), and WB, BUT I want to watch ENTERPRISE!

I was watching Leno the other night when the image froze ( with him sitting at his desk) and stayed that way for 5-10min. reception thing? or anyone else see that?

Weebling--

I saw the same thing on Leno the other night....sound continued but frozen picture. So it wasn't a problem with your setup. I was wondering the same thing -- thinking it was maybe a multipath or antenna problem --when I saw it. Good to know it wasn't.

Originally posted by quarque
Lance - this is most definitely a "reception problem" and a rather common one. The station power output is extremely steady. Most likely you are receiving a reflected signal as either your primary source or as interference. If it is worse on windy days I would look for nearby trees. Most people have to hunt around for the best antenna location because it is always a compomise between the various towers and reflections of each.

Larry

Yeah, I moved the antenna and it is better now. It is still in the room with the TV, but up on the mast leaning against the wall :) I'll be putting it in the attic this week, so hopefully going through less walls and being higher up will fix it.

The last couple of days, I cannot get KONG no matter what I try, which is strange since KING comes in just fine.

-Lance

Origionally posted by Lance
The last couple of days, I cannot get KONG no matter what I try, which is strange since KING comes in just fine.

KONG's signal is lower power (per Budget_HT post pg11) I used to have difficulty getting it myself with a CM4228. Getting that antenna higher and focusing it for KONG might solve everything.

My current status: using a CM4228 AND CM4248 in can get almost everything broadcast locally (no UPN & occasional breakup on 9-1 and 9-5 *NOT 9-4*;) )

I've had to remove 9-2 and 9-3 from my channel list. When I tune to them (or 9-5 off hours)while their not sending picture but saying *digital signal*, my SIRT165 goes into spontaneous reboot mode. Anyone else experience that one? Doesn't happen on any other stations (hmm...conspiracy theory...)

I'm in the same boat.

My Dish 6000 freaks out when I go to the PBS chennels while they aren't broadcasting and removes all channel 9 info from my favorite channels guide. Sometimes it goes so far as to nix them from my available channels guide and I have to add pbs again manually.

Maybe it's a conspiracy to get back all the free riders that didn't contribute to this year's pledge drive?

When I tune to them (or 9-5 off hours)while their not sending picture but saying *digital signal*, my SIRT165 goes into spontaneous reboot mode. Anyone else experience that one? Doesn't happen on any other stations (hmm...conspiracy theory...)

My SIR-T165 does the same thing with the KCTS sub-channels when they have what looks like a carrier without data. I've read elsewhere that this is a known issue with the SIR-T165. It has something to do with bad PSIP (?) data. Something HDTV-ish that I'm not clear on. I've also heard that the broadcasters can fix this, if they're asked to, though I'm not sure just what to ask for.

Maybe when HDTV becomes more mainstream all the broadcasters will get this stuff right.

I am luckier I guess. My Hughes E86 and RCA DTC-100 handle the evening lack of 9-2 (SD) and 9-3 okay. The HD comes in on 9-2 after the SD 9-2 shuts down.

Of course, the Hughes E86 pays little attention to PSIP data since it gets program guide data only from DirecTV via satellite for the OTA local analog and digital channels. I used to get KCTS-HD on both 9-2 and 9-5 on the E86, but the 9-5 went away a few weeks ago and I did not bother to investigate, since all I lost was redundancy that I did not need.

What a great thread! Terrific information, but I wasn't able to find my neighborhood discussed. I have a DTV on order, and I'm wondering what kind of antenna would work best. I live on Capitol Hill (16th E. just south of E. Aloha), so I'm quite close to the CH towers and not far from the QA towers. Right now, I just have a pair of rabbit ears, which are in the basement (Radio Shack powered VHF/UHF, looks like a small laptop with a knob and rabbit ears). I'm able to get good reception of the local analog stations (4,5,7,9,11,13 [if I rotate a bit], 16 [snowy], 22, 33 [snowy] and 51). I was hoping I could just get one of those antennas that clip on to the satellite dish on the third floor roof, about 30' up.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

origionally posted by felthove:
Maybe it's a conspiracy to get back all the free riders that didn't contribute to this year's pledge drive?

I know I'm starting to feel guilty when watching all those "Over *all manner of places around the world*". I think they have the best demonstration of HDTV available in Seattle. KOMO news and Monday Night Football a close second. I wish the primetime network shows would get the hang of it. They do look good, but not knock your socks off good. Think it's 'cause the same show has to be shown for the SD crowd, or filming/directing technique to be learned?

Grampa:
Heck! That close you should pick it up with your fillings! I'll bet your right about using a simple antenna, but I'm guessing you'll need to point it UP toward the middle or higher of that antenna. Wait till the in town guys and resident gods chime in. Do you already have an Over The Air receiver/decoder?

origionally posted by Budget_HT:
I used to get KCTS-HD on both 9-2 and 9-5 on the E86, but the 9-5 went away a few weeks ago and I did not bother to investigate, since all I lost was redundancy that I did not need.

Do you mean you get those two channels on DirectTV? Because 9-1 programing is definitely not what I see on 9-5 most of the time. (and i've never seen anything on 9-2 & 9-3)

Originally posted by weebling1
KONG's signal is lower power (per Budget_HT post pg11) I used to have difficulty getting it myself with a CM4228. Getting that antenna higher and focusing it for KONG might solve everything.

My current status: using a CM4228 AND CM4248 in can get almost everything broadcast locally (no UPN & occasional breakup on 9-1 and 9-5 *NOT 9-4*;) )

I've had to remove 9-2 and 9-3 from my channel list. When I tune to them (or 9-5 off hours)while their not sending picture but saying *digital signal*, my SIRT165 goes into spontaneous reboot mode. Anyone else experience that one? Doesn't happen on any other stations (hmm...conspiracy theory...)

KING-DT = 960kW
KONG-DT = 700kW

It's not THAT much lower power....Although KONG's antenna is 70ft lower than KING.

I, too, removed 9-2 and 9-3, but only so I didn't have to go through them while channel surfing. Those channels caused no problems for my LG DTV box.

Attached is a spreadsheet I put together that has info on the Puget Sound DTV locals.

-Lance

Thanks Lance -- that's great.

Originally posted by weebling1
Do you already have an Over The Air receiver/decoder? No, I just have a standard TV right now. I ordered the new LG LST-3510A, mostly because of its DVD with a DVI connection, but then I started reading about OTA HDTV. I have to admit that there is not much on TV that I watch (I'm a Netflix addict). At first I viewed the tuner as an added bonus, but now I'm thinking it will be fun to see what channels I can pull in. From what I've read here, multipath may be my biggest problem. Also, the two main signal sources are about 120 degrees apart, so a single directional antenna could be a problem.

Originally posted by Grampa
No, I just have a standard TV right now. I ordered the new LG LST-3510A, mostly because of its DVD with a DVI connection, but then I started reading about OTA HDTV. I have to admit that there is not much on TV that I watch (I'm a Netflix addict). At first I viewed the tuner as an added bonus, but now I'm thinking it will be fun to see what channels I can pull in. From what I've read here, multipath may be my biggest problem. Also, the two main signal sources are about 120 degrees apart, so a single directional antenna could be a problem.

That 3510A looks really nice and an interesting packaging of technologies. Were you able to find it for less than $500? I too use Netflix a lot but there is nothing like HD on a good set. As far as antennas, you're in the *crap shoot* zone. Buy cheap and try all possible locations and orientations. I think RS brought back the double-bowtie design, but hell a piece of wire might work as well. Give us a report on the 3510A when you get it going.

For anyone in the Seattle area looking for a STB, Circuit City in Southcenter has a bunch of open box specials. I don't remember all of them, but they started at $219 for a Zenith HDV420. There were a couple of others in the $250 range as well.

Originally posted by quarque
That 3510A looks really nice and an interesting packaging of technologies. Were you able to find it for less than $500? I too use Netflix a lot but there is nothing like HD on a good set. As far as antennas, you're in the *crap shoot* zone. Buy cheap and try all possible locations and orientations. I think RS brought back the double-bowtie design, but hell a piece of wire might work as well. Give us a report on the 3510A when you get it going. No, that's the amount I paid (it was advertised at $100 more). It's supposed to ship Thursday. I'll be interested to see how it looks on my screen, but my projector is technically not HD. It's XGA (1024x768), and projects 16:9 material on a 1024x576 panel. Nevertheless, DVDs do look great on it. No matter how good the TV looks, I'm not likely to watch it unless I find some content I enjoy.

Since I now get decent reception with the antenna in the basement, I would think putting it on the roof will only make it better.

Originally posted by weebling1

Do you mean you get those two channels on DirectTV? Because 9-1 programing is definitely not what I see on 9-5 most of the time. (and i've never seen anything on 9-2 & 9-3)

I meant that I receive them OTA. The redundancy that I mentioned applies to channels 9-2 (evening) and 9-5 both being the identical HD programming.

KCTS 9-1 is a simulcast of their analog programming (available in SD as SE9 from DirecTV).

9-2 and 9-3, in the daytime, are additional KCTS channels that are also available on cable (I can't remember which is which).

9-2 and 9-5, in the evenings, are KCTS-HD and are actually the same HD programming. Different receivers seem to map to either 9-2 or 9-5 for KCTS-HD. The HD programming is mostly different from 9-1 and their analog channel 9. But there are times when they have the same programming. I have seen some PBS examples.

Just a reminder: DirecTV does not provide any local HD channels, but the DirecTV HD receivers all have OTA tuners in them, allowing you to get OTA HD channels with an antenna. Most of the newer receivers have an integrated channel list that can mix OTA, DirecTV and cable channels together for channel surfing. Some newer receivers also provide the DirecTV Advanced Program Guide (APG), which provides program guide data for all DirecTV channels, all OTA DT and HD channels, most OTA analog channels and some cable channels that are NOT otherwise available from DirecTV. In other words, they do not provide guide data for cable channels that are also in the DirecTV lineup, with the exception of OTA (local) channels provided via cable. Those have been my observations with my Hughes E86 and its APG.

Originally posted by lkinley
Anyone else have problems during Scrubs and ER last night on KING? The signal strength would jump from 80% to 30% and the picture/sound would drop out and pixelize.

I have a hard time believing this is a reception problem when the signal strength drops that much for 1-2 seconds. No other channels were having problems.

-Lance

Sorry for the late reply I just came across this area of the AVSFourm

I too had that problem that week. KING is my second strongest signal, no matter where I move the antenna I always pick it up. It seems to be really stable these days. For a while a few months ago they seemed to have a switching problem where the program would be in HD then it would goto a commercial and when they came back it would remain non-HD. Dunno it could also be my hardware. But I aside from the hiccup last Thursday they have been perfect.

Anyone know what happened to KING's HD news? They used to have what seemed to be 1 HD camera that they used sporadically (the long shot of both anchors). However now they don't ever seem to use it anymore.

KOMO's new on the other hand is rarely not in HD, it is very nice.

Originally posted by Grampa
What a great thread! Terrific information, but I wasn't able to find my neighborhood discussed. I have a DTV on order, and I'm wondering what kind of antenna would work best. I live on Capitol Hill (16th E. just south of E. Aloha), so I'm quite close to the CH towers and not far from the QA towers. Right now, I just have a pair of rabbit ears, which are in the basement (Radio Shack powered VHF/UHF, looks like a small laptop with a knob and rabbit ears). I'm able to get good reception of the local analog stations (4,5,7,9,11,13 [if I rotate a bit], 16 [snowy], 22, 33 [snowy] and 51). I was hoping I could just get one of those antennas that clip on to the satellite dish on the third floor roof, about 30' up.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

Like Grampa, I live quite close to Seattle transmission towers, although I am on the south slope of Queen Anne rather than in Capitol Hill. I have line of site to the 3 QA towers, although I am so close to them that the angle subtended by the three is not trivially small. To be specific I live on the west side of Queen Anne avenue, close to Kinnear Park and a few blocks downhill from Kerry Park (the popular viewpoint/overlook).

According to antennaweb.org I should use a red (medium directional) or yellow (small multi-directional) OTA antenna. The answers are very dependent on whether I say there is a large reflective building in my area.

If anybody else has knowledge of best antenna for south slope Queen Anne residents, and whether I have a decent chance for reception, I'd appreciate it.

Dancook, have you tried the UHF antenna that probably came with your standard TV? Since HD uses the UHF frequencies, that might give you an idea of what kind of reception you will get. If you don't have your receiver yet, I read somewhere that channel 16 analog picks up the QA towers, and 22 analog picks up the CH towers. I get great reception of 22, even from the basement, but 16 is snowy, and I need to fiddle with the antenna to get that. With HD, it's my understanding that you either get it or you don't, and I won't know that until I get my receiver.

Dancook - sounds like you are almost "under" the towers. The signal level from direct radiation might be quite low because of the transmitter's radiation pattern. They are genrally designed for horizontal propagation, not vertical. You will likely get a ton of reflections. So, perhaps a coat hanger? I have no idea what would work the best.

Anyone else not getting HD while watching ER tonight. I am getting a great signal strength and channel is tuning with no problem. Instead of filling my 16:9 screen as it normally does it looks like a 4:3 broadcast in letterbox.

I am using my HTPC with MyHD 120 as the tuner.

The picture looked HD quality but as you say itwasn't 16:9. CC was there, so if they could get with KOMO and trade info maybe we could have the best of both worlds.

saw ER like that too. maybe someone flipped the wrong switch and sent out the wrong feed. ALL OTA digital signals look better (and slightly wider) to me.

I am attempting to setup a SIR-TS160 for OTA HDTV but am not having much luck. I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor with a RS adjustable attenuator and a CM 3042 13db amplifier. I'm located in South Seattle, just north of Boeing Field, less than 10 miles from Queen Anne / Capitol Hill.

When I do a digital channel scan I can get anywhere from 0-6 channels by positioning the SS in variouls places around the house. The problem is I lose these channels by simply changing the channel. KING is the worst. If I switch for 5-1, and do a digital channel scan, it'll come up and I can watch it fine. But as soon as I change to a different channel, DirecTV or say 4-1, and then come back to 5-1, I just get a "Searching for signal". Thing is when KING is viewable, the T160 says that the signal strength is 100%. But when it's gone, it's 0%. It seems like it's all or nothing. I sometimes loose 4-1 and 7-1 in the same way, but it's no where near as bad.

I've also tried my 25+ year old rooftop antenna and an old pair of rabbit ears with and without the attenuator and amplfier without much success. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could improve my OTA reception?

I live on the western slope of Queen Anne (12th Ave.) in Seattle and want to know which antenna might help me "rein in" the signals that are being blasted at me from less than a mile away. I don't have line of sight to the Queen Anne towers because I'm on the western slope of the hill.

The Terk TV55 that I wasted $90 on can get 13.1 and 13.2 (Fox and WB) from my flat roof - but I was able to get these stations during initial testing with a borrowed set of indoor rabbit ears.

The CM4228 seems to be a forum favorite, but it seems to work wonders for conquering distance, a problem I definitely don't have. If anyone else here lives on Queen Anne (particularly the western slope with no line of sight to the towers) and has figured out a way to get a good selection of OTA HD, I'd love to hear how you did it, and if a particular antenna is best for solving close-range reception problems.

tlavelle,

13.1 and 13.2 (CH18), are broadcast from Bremerton, which is not encouraging for you. The QA towers, although only a mile away, are likely broadcasting the signal right over top of you, especially if you are over the western slope.

If you can't get them with rabbit ears on your roof, I don't think a bigger antenna will help unless you get it way up in the air.

Those are my thoughts, perhaps those with more experience with reception at those close distances can provide more insight.

-Lance

Originally posted by gquan
I am attempting to setup a SIR-TS160 for OTA HDTV but am not having much luck. I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor with a RS adjustable attenuator and a CM 3042 13db amplifier. I'm located in South Seattle, just north of Boeing Field, less than 10 miles from Queen Anne / Capitol Hill.

When I do a digital channel scan I can get anywhere from 0-6 channels by positioning the SS in variouls places around the house. The problem is I lose these channels by simply changing the channel. KING is the worst. If I switch for 5-1, and do a digital channel scan, it'll come up and I can watch it fine. But as soon as I change to a different channel, DirecTV or say 4-1, and then come back to 5-1, I just get a "Searching for signal". Thing is when KING is viewable, the T160 says that the signal strength is 100%. But when it's gone, it's 0%. It seems like it's all or nothing. I sometimes loose 4-1 and 7-1 in the same way, but it's no where near as bad.

I've also tried my 25+ year old rooftop antenna and an old pair of rabbit ears with and without the attenuator and amplfier without much success. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could improve my OTA reception?

Probably multipath as I mentioned in my PM reply. I think the amplifier is overkill. I would leave it out and add as much attenuation as possible. If you get no stations then start reducing attenuation until they just start showing up. Unfortunatley, the whole OTA thing in urban areas is hit and miss. The same solution on one block may not work on the next block over becuase there are so many sources of reflection. Hopefully the receiver front ends will continue to improve on multipath rejection.

Originally posted by tlavelle
I live on the western slope of Queen Anne (12th Ave.) in Seattle and want to know which antenna might help me "rein in" the signals that are being blasted at me from less than a mile away. I don't have line of sight to the Queen Anne towers because I'm on the western slope of the hill.

The Terk TV55 that I wasted $90 on can get 13.1 and 13.2 (Fox and WB) from my flat roof - but I was able to get these stations during initial testing with a borrowed set of indoor rabbit ears.

The CM4228 seems to be a forum favorite, but it seems to work wonders for conquering distance, a problem I definitely don't have. If anyone else here lives on Queen Anne (particularly the western slope with no line of sight to the towers) and has figured out a way to get a good selection of OTA HD, I'd love to hear how you did it, and if a particular antenna is best for solving close-range reception problems.
Close-in urban areas are THE toughest to get OTA. Only a lot of experimentation with different antennas and locations will tell you anything. I have not yet seen any particular antenna that *works* every time in these conditions. A 2-foot piece of wire may work as well as a $100 antenna, or you may just be SOL.

quarque, should I expect a big difference between analog and DTV? As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm on Capitol Hill, and able to get a lot of stations with just VHF/UHF rabbit ears, even in the basement. Channel 22 comes in great no matter what I do, and 16 is watchable if I rotate the rabbit ears and flip the switch to UHF. I was hoping that this means I will do OK with digital, especially if I put the antenna on the roof.

Originally posted by Grampa
quarque, should I expect a big difference between analog and DTV? As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm on Capitol Hill, and able to get a lot of stations with just VHF/UHF rabbit ears, even in the basement. Channel 22 comes in great no matter what I do, and 16 is watchable if I rotate the rabbit ears and flip the switch to UHF. I was hoping that this means I will do OK with digital, especially if I put the antenna on the roof.
The problem with digital is that reflected signals out of phase with the main signal can cause the receiver to lose signal lock. But in the analog realm they just show up as ghost images, sometimes too faint to even be noticed. So even though the analog UHF test is often used for distant locations, it is not all that useful of a test in urban areas.

For the first time I've seen it, tonight KING5's studio shots filled the whole 16:9 screen & had K5 HD in bottom right corner. I'm sure they'll be getting field cams running soon.

KING-DT news has looked the same for about 2 years: Studio shots w/o graphics in HD 16x9, everything else upconverted 480i 4x3.

Weebling1, do you have some information about an upcoming change at KING-DT?

Budget_HT : No, not at all. I had never noticed those HD shots and reasoned that changes were happening. Very sad to hear that was business as usual. I've flip the channel a lot but mostly switched to KOMO local news since I got my Sony 60" week & a half? ago.

Argh, I finally got my CM4221 installed in the attic and now I can't get KIRO. Grrr.

It's definitely multipath... as I can receive CH7 via a cheap RS yagi in my media room, but as soon as I combine the antenna input from the attic...blammo, it is gone.

It's interesting, because the antenna is in relatively the same position as before, just 10ft higher and less material to go through.

Everything else seems to be stronger now, however. I guess I'll have to play around with more locations in the attic.

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
Argh, I finally got my CM4221 installed in the attic and now I can't get KIRO. Grrr.

It's definitely multipath... as I can receive CH7 via a cheap RS yagi in my media room, but as soon as I combine the antenna input from the attic...blammo, it is gone.

It's interesting, because the antenna is in relatively the same position as before, just 10ft higher and less material to go through.

Everything else seems to be stronger now, however. I guess I'll have to play around with more locations in the attic.

-Lance
When you say "combine" the antennas, how exactly are you doing this?

Originally posted by quarque
When you say "combine" the antennas, how exactly are you doing this?

Rat Shack coax splitter/combiner.

Combining signals on other channels has no negative effects.

-Lance

Hi all, I'm new to OTA and thought I'd post my results for others thinking about getting into it. I'm in Fremont (Seattle) and using a Zenith Silver Sensor pointed to the east wall of my house on the 1st floor. I get the following digital channels and strengths (with a myHD card):

4 ABC * doesn't come in reliably
5 NBC 81-100%
7 CBS 58-69%
11 UPN 81% solid
13 FOX 32ish
22 FOX 44 - 69%
38 ABC 58 - 81%
41 PBS 81% solid

CBS seems to flake out sometimes... any ideas?

What pre-amp would you recommend to bring up the reception on channels like FOX and ABC? I haven't had problems yet but I'd like to move the antenna to somewhere less conspicuous and when I do they tend to start dropping.

Thanks!
Chris

cdt9c1 : I think you need to redirect your antenna.
Goto www.antennaweb.org and enter your address for aiming purposes. A 90degree point (east) maybe a difficult angle for reception. After that you may not need an amplifier.

Hi weebling1, actually I tried it in all orientations I could (the silver sensor can be aligned vertically and horizontally) and pointing all around the room. I could get certain channels better in certain positions, but this is the only one that allowed all of them to come in. However, some aren't great, which is why I was thinking an amplifier might be in order. I'd like to not have to repoint the antenna for each different channel :)

Chris

Originally posted by lkinley
Rat Shack coax splitter/combiner.

Combining signals on other channels has no negative effects.

-Lance
When two signals that are not *exactly* in phase are combined you will get cancellation and the receiver may not lock on. You might want to try another method or use an A-B switch to select the best antenna for each channel.

Originally posted by quarque
When two signals that are not *exactly* in phase are combined you will get cancellation and the receiver may not lock on. You might want to try another method or use an A-B switch to select the best antenna for each channel.

Yes, but all the other channels (4,5,9,11,13,22,etc) are fine with this arrangement.

Ch7 on attic 4221 - 'no signal'
Ch7 on RS yagi - ~40% signal strength

Combine the two, and there is 'no signal'. I believe it is because of multipath on the attic antenna. No easy way to be certain, but the evidence sure points to that.

There are some radio towers approx. 2-3 miles away to the SE, I might be getting a reflection off of them.

-Lance