If anybody is interested, they currently have a Channelmaster 4228 in stock at the Fry's in Renton. I saw it this morning on the right side of the store (right after you enter the store). The price is also pretty good, I paid about $10 more, when I bought mine online a month ago...

If anybody is interested, they currently have a Channelmaster 4228 in stock at the Fry's in Renton. I saw it this morning on the right side of the store (right after you enter the store). The price is also pretty good, I paid about $10 more, when I bought mine online a month ago...

Interesting--I was in there the other day and the only antennas I saw (not CM) were at the far left side in the back.

A little secret about Frys- They have a whole section of cheaper A/V type stuff to the right as you walk in. Lots of interconnect type cables for MUCH less money then the ones they sell in the back to the left by the TV's. A very large selection of antennas in that area too...

KCTS HD in 720p?

I just noticed that KCTS showed-up in 720p yesterday evening. Did anybody else notice this as well? Isn't PBS HD normally 1080i?

KCTS HD in 720p?

I just noticed that KCTS showed-up in 720p yesterday evening. Did anybody else notice this as well? Isn't PBS HD normally 1080i?

Yeah. It's 720p right now. Maybe they were having problems trying to cram two 420(i/p?) channels along with the 1080i.

Having 720p will help to cut down on the pixelisation, they have 4 x 480i channels too don't they.

Back when I was looking for a CM 4221 I could not find it local. I checked Fry's and everywhere else without luck. It can be had online for about $30+ delivered. And yes there are at least 2 different places in the store with antennas. The area to the right front as you enter had the most promising stuff, but not what I was looking for specifically. And...none of the help in Fry's even knew what they had in the store.

Second, I have had my CM 4221 for a few months and I cannot get 3 of the channels I would like to have. (The key question would be did I used to get them and it seems as though I did at least get KINGDT, so maybe it is a leaves thing.) Here is the antenna web story and my signal strength measurements added.

following each is the reception strength -
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 266° 16.5 48 - 0%
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 266° 16.8 39 - 90%
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 266° 16.7 38 - 78%
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 UPN TACOMA WA 264° 14.4 36 - 26%
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 266° 16.5 31 - 45%
* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 264° 14.4 41 - 65%
* blue - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 249° 37.3 18 - 1%

Other than FOX it does seem strange that I can get KIRO and KOMO just fine, but nothing on KING or KSTW which seem to have similar direction/distance characteristics to some I do get just fine. But I would really like to get FOX as well, my daughter has me recording Prison Break right now and no HD :-(

Any suggestions? I don't have an amplifier and have considered a slight rotation of the antenna in a counter-clockwise direction (once I borrow or rent a tall enough ladder).

Thanks,
Mike

Just in time for the new Prison Break I am seeing my KCPQ reception turning poor. Has anyone noticed? Maybe it's just trees in my area or something like that. (Kirkland/Totem Lake East)

It's not presenting like any reception problem I have seen before, though. It looks like the frame rate drops... so instead of a frozen picture every few seconds, I get a steady apparent 15 frames per sec or so. (There are occasional audio dropouts too.) Very strange.

Having 720p will help to cut down on the pixelisation, they have 4 x 480i channels too don't they.

It's either 3 480i or 2 480i plus one 720p. Right now 9.1 is 704x480, while 9.3 is 352x780, but I don't know if they always use that lower resolution on the secondary channels.

Oops, that should have said 352x480, not 780. 9.2 is also 352x480 this morning.

It's either 3 480i or 2 480i plus one 720p. Right now 9.1 is 704x480, while 9.3 is 352x780, but I don't know if they always use that lower resolution on the secondary channels.

Oops, that should have said 352x480, not 780. 9.2 is also 352x480 this morning.

I sure do hope that by going to 720p it cuts down on the pixelization. PBS-HD is my favorite channel.

I sure do hope that by going to 720p it cuts down on the pixelization. PBS-HD is my favorite channel.

Mine too, I love the nature and front line programming. Also like Discovery HD for the nature programming.

Hello - I am looking to start with HD in Maple Valley and am curious about what channels I can expect to receive OTA. I am at 47 21 55 N 122 01 40 W with a 2 story house. I will appreciate any assistance you could give on channels, antenna choice etc.

Thanks!

Hello - I am looking to start with HD in Maple Valley and am curious about what channels I can expect to receive OTA. I am at 47 21 55 N 122 01 40 W with a 2 story house. I will appreciate any assistance you could give on channels, antenna choice etc.

Thanks!

You might need this model VU-190 XR (big!) from Radio Shack, but I think this might work with a pre amp, VU-90 XR. The shop up the road from you should carry them. I would try the smaller one first, the stations are about 22 miles away from us.

You can get a locals HD only from Comcast for $15.

It was suggested in another thread that I post over here to get some idea of what type of antenna I'll need. Here are my antennaweb results:

yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 265° 16.3 48
yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 265° 16.6 39
yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 265° 16.4 38
yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 263° 14.2 41
yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 248° 37.2 18
yellow - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 248° 36.6 14

I'm located in Klahanie at 248th Ave SE and SE 37th Pl
The antenna would have to be indoor or attic mounted (composite roof) as I don't have the time to fight the HOA over an external antenna. I might be able to sneak a flat one under the eaves but I would rather avoid that if possible. Thanks.

Hello - I am looking to start with HD in Maple Valley and am curious about what channels I can expect to receive OTA. I am at 47 21 55 N 122 01 40 W with a 2 story house. I will appreciate any assistance you could give on channels, antenna choice etc.

Thanks!

You are only 24 miles from QA towers and have no hills in the way. If you have NO trees to get through then a CM 4221 or RS 15-2160 might work. If you have trees then plan on something with higher gain like a CM 4248 or 4228. The RS VU-190 is a VHF/UHF combo, so unless you're looking for analog VHF it is not the best choice. Try the 15-2160 as a test and return it if you need to. You should be able to get all the major networks with the right antenna mounted as high up as you can get it.

It was suggested in another thread that I post over here to get some idea of what type of antenna I'll need. Here are my antennaweb results:

yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 265° 16.3 48
yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 265° 16.6 39
yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 265° 16.4 38
yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 263° 14.2 41
yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 248° 37.2 18
yellow - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 248° 36.6 14

I'm located in Klahanie at 248th Ave SE and SE 37th Pl
The antenna would have to be indoor or attic mounted (composite roof) as I don't have the time to fight the HOA over an external antenna. I might be able to sneak a flat one under the eaves but I would rather avoid that if possible. Thanks.

You are on the back side of a hill so an attic mount *might* work, might not. You will want a high-gain antenna like the CM 4248 or 4228 and possibly a preamp. Even with all that it may not work well. You can print out the rules from the FCC site and mail them to your HOA then let them waste *their* time. You are entitiled to put up an antenna as long as you meet the FCC rules. The members in the Antenna thread can help you with specifics.

Thanks so much for the quick response. It looks like I have a lot of things to ponder.

You are only 24 miles from QA towers and have no hills in the way. If you have NO trees to get through then a CM 4221 or RS 15-2160 might work. If you have trees then plan on something with higher gain like a CM 4248 or 4228. The RS VU-190 is a VHF/UHF combo, so unless you're looking for analog VHF it is not the best choice. Try the 15-2160 as a test and return it if you need to. You should be able to get all the major networks with the right antenna mounted as high up as you can get it.

I'm assuming that these stations will change their channels back to the original analogue ones, so a combo is a good chose unless you want to put up another antenna in a few years.

Thanks so much for the quick response. It looks like I have a lot of things to ponder.

Michael
The site for the rules
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
However, your area is tougher than it looks. Done surveys all around you, never put one up there. Trees really chop up the signal. Never say never, but you might want to look into the cable options. Basic $12/mo hooked to A QAM Cable card ready tuner, minus the card, will get you all the locals except ch11 in HD.
Dan

I'm assuming that these stations will change their channels back to the original analogue ones, so a combo is a good chose unless you want to put up another antenna in a few years.

James
Earlier in this thread there's a mention of what stations are going back to their VHF frequencies. I think it was only ch9 & ch11. All the rest are keeping their UHF frequencies. Even if you want to add these back in later, separate UHF and VHF antennas will give you more choices and performance than a combo one. They will be easy to couple together, too. I would say wait until that happens and then cross that bridge. Just put up a UHF for now.
Dan

Michael
The site for the rules
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
However, your area is tougher than it looks. Done surveys all around you, never put one up there. Trees really chop up the signal. Never say never, but you might want to look into the cable options. Basic $12/mo hooked to A QAM Cable card ready tuner, minus the card, will get you all the locals except ch11 in HD.
Dan
Engineer Ron Diote from KSTW (channel 11) reports that they should be carried on Comcast sometime in September, making the Comcast alternative a little more attractive. When they get their TiVo-based 34xx boxes going (late '06 or early '07), then they become a viable candidate for me.

I'm in the same fix Dave. I'll likely use Dish or Comcast in the future after they resolve their respective Tivo issues. The HDTV I'm looking to buy doesn't have a QAM or CableCard tuner but does have an OTA HDTV tuner so I thought I would play with the antenna approach and see if it works in the interim. The kicker is that I already have Comcast for broadband so if the TV had a QAM tuner this would all be a piece of cake. Nothing about HDTV is easy, is it?

Engineer Ron Diote from KSTW (channel 11) reports that they should be carried on Comcast sometime in September, making the Comcast alternative a little more attractive. When they get their TiVo-based 34xx boxes going (late '06 or early '07), then they become a viable candidate for me.

I suspect that KSTW is working on getting its HD carried on all the cable and satellite systems in time for the CW network rollout, if possible.

James
Earlier in this thread there's a mention of what stations are going back to their VHF frequencies. I think it was only ch9 & ch11. All the rest are keeping their UHF frequencies. Even if you want to add these back in later, separate UHF and VHF antennas will give you more choices and performance than a combo one. They will be easy to couple together, too. I would say wait until that happens and then cross that bridge. Just put up a UHF for now.
Dan

Ooh, I hope they don't. I don't really want to have to put the big antenna back up (I was about to take it to the dump, but I guess I'll keep it for now). I suspect that by Feb 2009 when this would happen both 9 and 11 will be carried by the cable and satellite companies (hopefully including 9.5).

James
Earlier in this thread there's a mention of what stations are going back to their VHF frequencies. I think it was only ch9 & ch11. All the rest are keeping their UHF frequencies. Even if you want to add these back in later, separate UHF and VHF antennas will give you more choices and performance than a combo one. They will be easy to couple together, too. I would say wait until that happens and then cross that bridge. Just put up a UHF for now.
Dan

Actually 9, 11 AND 13 have all applied for their old analog channel freq's.

Antenna shoppers: Keep in mind that if you're not too far away from these 3 towers your UHF antenna may pick up enough signal to lock in. The gain is much lower in the high-VHF band but several AVS members around the country have had success with their UHF units picking up VHF digitals.

Ooh, I hope they don't. I don't really want to have to put the big antenna back up (I was about to take it to the dump, but I guess I'll keep it for now). I suspect that by Feb 2009 when this would happen both 9 and 11 will be carried by the cable and satellite companies (hopefully including 9.5).

rdn
If your UHF antenna doesn't have enough to pull in the high VHF band, a small high band VHF yagi is not that hard to couple in with the UHF, and it has smaller elements than an all channel VHF. The low band of VHF is where you need those long 45' to 60" elements.
Cross that bridge when you get there. Meanwhile, chuck the old one.
Dan

rdn
If your UHF antenna doesn't have enough to pull in the high VHF band, a small high band VHF yagi is not that hard to couple in with the UHF, and it has smaller elements than an all channel VHF. The low band of VHF is where you need those long 45' to 60" elements.
Cross that bridge when you get there. Meanwhile, chuck the old one.
Dan

Good point, although I doubt high-band only VHF antennas are very plentiful (maybe they will be because I recall seeing that low-band VHF is going away completely). Channel 9 is the only one I really care much about since the others I watch will end up on DirecTV eventually.

Hopefully DirecTV will pick up local PBS stations sometime in the future too.

Hopefully DirecTV will pick up local PBS stations sometime in the future too.

If they do, I hope they add both 9.1 and 9.5.

Good point, although I doubt high-band only VHF antennas are very plentiful (maybe they will be because I recall seeing that low-band VHF is going away completely). Channel 9 is the only one I really care much about since the others I watch will end up on DirecTV eventually.

rdn
Plenty for sale here
http://www.starkelectronic.com/vhf.htm
Even have cut for channel ones, scroll down the page.
Couple it with a UHF/VHF combiner for a few bucks.
They will still need them for HD VHF, so they'll be there when you need one.
Dan

I just wanted to shout out a big thank-you to the folks at KCTS for fixing their HD channel (9-5). What a difference!!! They finally fixed their pixilation problems. The one true test was when you'd see a live performance, and they would show the drummer hit a cymbol. Last night... not a problem.

Again... a big huge thanks!

I just wanted to shout out a big thank-you to the folks at KCTS for fixing their HD channel (9-5). What a difference!!! They finally fixed their pixilation problems. The one true test was when you'd see a live performance, and they would show the drummer hit a cymbol. Last night... not a problem.

Again... a big huge thanks!

I suspect this is a result of their switching from 1080i to 720p. They also seem to have a reduced bandwidth on 9.2 and 9.3, although I don't recall if they always did this. There's a limit in how much data you can cram into the bandwidth of a single RF channel.

rdn
Plenty for sale here
http://www.starkelectronic.com/vhf.htm
Even have cut for channel ones, scroll down the page.
Couple it with a UHF/VHF combiner for a few bucks.
They will still need them for HD VHF, so they'll be there when you need one.
Dan

That's where I found my Winegard UHF array, but I have never checked the rest of their site. It's a good place to bookmark--prices are quite competitive.

I'm in the same fix Dave. I'll likely use Dish or Comcast in the future after they resolve their respective Tivo issues. The HDTV I'm looking to buy doesn't have a QAM or CableCard tuner but does have an OTA HDTV tuner so I thought I would play with the antenna approach and see if it works in the interim. The kicker is that I already have Comcast for broadband so if the TV had a QAM tuner this would all be a piece of cake. Nothing about HDTV is easy, is it?

Michael,

I live about 4-5 blocks south of you (corner of 249th Ct SE and SE 42nd Dr). I put up a CH 4221 mounted on my chimney, right below my dish. I did not ask the homeowners association, I just put them up. They are in a somewhat inconspicuous location but they are visible. No one has said anything and I do believe the CCR was adjusted about a year ago to recognize the FCC ruling.

As for reception I get good OTA-HD on 4, 7, 9, and 22. I currently don't get 5, 11, 13, or 16 although it seems I did in the past (may be a leaf problem). It also seems rather strange that I cannot 5 given it is in exactly the same direction as 4 and slightly closer.

Mike

Michael,

I live about 4-5 blocks south of you (corner of 249th Ct SE and SE 42nd Dr). I put up a CH 4221 mounted on my chimney, right below my dish. I did not ask the homeowners association, I just put them up. They are in a somewhat inconspicuous location but they are visible. No one has said anything and I do believe the CCR was adjusted about a year ago to recognize the FCC ruling.

As for reception I get good OTA-HD on 4, 7, 9, and 22. I currently don't get 5, 11, 13, or 16 although it seems I did in the past (may be a leaf problem). It also seems rather strange that I cannot 5 given it is in exactly the same direction as 4 and slightly closer.

Mike

It can get pretty tricky. I get 5 and 7 but have problems with 4. I have tried three different antenna locations on my roof and sitll get quite a bit of pixelization. On the original chimney location I got nothing at all. I tried moving the antenna around inside the house and found a location with a really solid signal, but that isn't very practical. The transmitter location would probably be visible from my roof if it weren't for a bunch of evergreens down the street.

It can get pretty tricky. I get 5 and 7 but have problems with 4. I have tried three different antenna locations on my roof and sitll get quite a bit of pixelization. On the original chimney location I got nothing at all. I tried moving the antenna around inside the house and found a location with a really solid signal, but that isn't very practical. The transmitter location would probably be visible from my roof if it weren't for a bunch of evergreens down the street.

rdn & Mike
Although the transmitters are in the same basic location for 4, 5, & 7, they are at different frequencies, power, radiation patterns, and more. Add in the distance, trees, antenna properties that are never equal for all frequencies, and it's a wonder they come in at all. It gets even better. You could have line of sight to the towers and still have problems....!
The fix is to try more locations, move it around at each one, and realize that 6" in any direction can make it.
Patience is your friend.
Dan

rdn & Mike
Although the transmitters are in the same basic location for 4, 5, & 7, they are at different frequencies, power, radiation patterns, and more. Add in the distance, trees, antenna properties that are never equal for all frequencies, and it's a wonder they come in at all. It gets even better. You could have line of sight to the towers and still have problems....!
The fix is to try more locations, move it around at each one, and realize that 6" in any direction can make it.
Patience is your friend.
Dan

That is definitely the case. I have a few options left to try, but have been hoping that DirecTV would have picked up the KOMO (and KCPQ) HD signals by now (5, 7, 9, 11, 16 and 22 come in fine).

Bob

Can anyone recommend an installer for a CM4221 in the Maple Valley area? After ordering the antenna and working with Directv to no avail, I am in the need of having someone come out and assist. The biggest obstacle I am facing is that I want the antenna mounted on my roof, but due to the house configuration, a 40 ft ladder is neccessary to reach the roof.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

TIA!

hi guys,

i live in sammamish, just want to check out if it is possible to get some hdtv channels by an antenna.

i tried to use the antennaweb site, the map seems a bit outdated, so i am copying my latitude/longitude here:
47.60931n / 122.0876w

i'd hope it can be a indoor one, but can try out door if it's not on roof, don't want to deal with hoa. :)

I am new to this, so if you can recommand some details, such as what kind fo model to buy, which direction to try to point to, what kind of wire will i need, that will be great.

very appreciate your help!!!

couple more notes:

1. someone mentioned a $15 comcast hd deal, i called them, they said no.
2. if i put an antenna out, then how to protect from bad weather, storm etc?

Is anyone having trouble with 11-1? I just rewired my house to split my antenna signal to a second HD receiver (Dish 811) and scanned for channels. It finds 11 DT as 36, and when I choose 36-1, get around 85% signal, then the box locks up and reboots. I've tried several removes and adds, but it doesn't seem to help. My other 811 which is already mapped works fine.

I suspect that with the change to CW, the PSIP is not correct, but would like to know if i'm the only one.

It's now official....the start date for Comcast to carry CW11 on the HD tier (ch.111) is Tuesday, September 19th, 2006. :D


RDiotte
CE, KSTW CW11

It's now official....the start date for Comcast to carry CW11 on the HD tier (ch.111) is Tuesday, September 19th, 2006. :D


RDiotte
CE, KSTW CW11

Do you know when (if) it will be carried by DirecTV?

Do you know when (if) it will be carried by DirecTV?


Y'know....I was going to say that Directv & D* aren't ready to provide HD local on their distribution systems yet...but I just went to the forum that addresses Seattle DBS and I see where the DBS companies have already started on providing some of the DTV local channels on their systems......

No one from directv or D* has approached us yet for carriage....guess I'll have to shake some trees at corporate (CBS) and find out. thanx for asking.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW

Y'know....I was going to say that Directv & D* aren't ready to provide HD local on their distribution systems yet...but I just went to the forum that addresses Seattle DBS and I see where the DBS companies have already started on providing some of the DTV local channels on their systems......

No one from directv or D* has approached us yet for carriage....guess I'll have to shake some trees at corporate (CBS) and find out. thanx for asking.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW

Yeah, they've had KING and KIRO for a few months. No KCPQ yet (it should be soon) and KOMO is only on Dish so far (I don't know why) but the DTV sats carrying locals in MPEG4 (which are spotbeam only) appear to have capability to add more channels. I can receive KSTW-DT just fine OTA, but I'm sure there are many who cannot.

hi guys,

i live in sammamish, just want to check out if it is possible to get some hdtv channels by an antenna.

i tried to use the antennaweb site, the map seems a bit outdated, so i am copying my latitude/longitude here:
47.60931n / 122.0876w

i'd hope it can be a indoor one, but can try out door if it's not on roof, don't want to deal with hoa. :)

I am new to this, so if you can recommand some details, such as what kind fo model to buy, which direction to try to point to, what kind of wire will i need, that will be great.

very appreciate your help!!!

couple more notes:

1. someone mentioned a $15 comcast hd deal, i called them, they said no.
2. if i put an antenna out, then how to protect from bad weather, storm etc?

swang
The lat/long are in the middle of the lake. What's the cross streets?
Dan

For what it's worth, the published plan for DTV on HD locals is to carry NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox. No PBS, no UPN, no WB, and no CW. Having said that, I've heard that in some areas, they've started (or are going to start) carrying CW.

Paul

Yeah, they've had KING and KIRO for a few months. No KCPQ yet (it should be soon) and KOMO is only on Dish so far (I don't know why) but the DTV sats carrying locals in MPEG4 (which are spotbeam only) appear to have capability to add more channels. I can receive KSTW-DT just fine OTA, but I'm sure there are many who cannot.

For what it's worth, the published plan for DTV on HD locals is to carry NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox. No PBS, no UPN, no WB, and no CW. Having said that, I've heard that in some areas, they've started (or are going to start) carrying CW.

Paul

The DirecTV web site shows WB, although I doubt there were many carried in HD (certainly not here).

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/packProg/channelChart2.jsp?assetId=1100086

Since WB no longer exists and CW is the successor to both WB and UPN, it makes sense that they carry it.

Hoping to get some advice...

I live in the Mt. Baker neighborhood in South Seattle, near 30th & McClellan. I currently have a Winegard SS200 SquareShooter antenna mounted to my roof. I was looking for something aesthetically pleasing since I was placing it on the roof. I receive ABC/CBS/NBC pretty well between 304*-306* but cannot pick up FOX/CW/PBS at 246*/327* respectively. I know that my HR10-250 doesn't have the best reception for OTA, but I'm trying to prepare for a HR20-700 when available with active OTA reception.

My question is what are some recommendations if I want to have a single antenna set-up (or multiple, if others are indoors) what is the best way I can receive at least all of the majors, but preferrably CW/PBS as well?

Does anyone live near me and have a set-up that works well?

Lastly, any word on when D* may reach agreements with KOM and KCPQ?

Thanks,
Aaron

Hi guys, Well, I just upacked my LCD HDTV and you know what that means, I need content! My plan is to try OTA until the HD tivo arrives, so...

This is what antennaweb tells me:

* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 138° 1.6 41
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 235° 1.5 38
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 234° 1.4 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 241° 1.6 39
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 138° 1.7 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 139° 1.7 36
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 234° 1.4 31

now what?! I'm at 2020 Broadway (& Boston) on north capitol hill.

Is it worth my time to try OTA, and if so which antenna should I get? Would I be better off just calling comcast (ugh!) as my tv does QAM. I totally don't want a set top box!

Also, why isn't fox on that list? are they not broadcasting in HD or am I just too far away?

I totally realize these questions have all been asked a million times in some from or another, thanks for your patience!
Thanks!

Hoping to get some advice...

I live in the Mt. Baker neighborhood in South Seattle, near 30th & McClellan. I currently have a Winegard SS200 SquareShooter antenna mounted to my roof. I was looking for something aesthetically pleasing since I was placing it on the roof. I receive ABC/CBS/NBC pretty well between 304*-306* but cannot pick up FOX/CW/PBS at 246*/327* respectively. I know that my HR10-250 doesn't have the best reception for OTA, but I'm trying to prepare for a HR20-700 when available with active OTA reception.

My question is what are some recommendations if I want to have a single antenna set-up (or multiple, if others are indoors) what is the best way I can receive at least all of the majors, but preferrably CW/PBS as well?

Does anyone live near me and have a set-up that works well?

Lastly, any word on when D* may reach agreements with KOM and KCPQ?

Thanks,
Aaron

D* and Tribune (owner of KCPQ) have reached an agreement. It should show up soon (Sept 1 was mentioned, but that didn't happen.) All the information I have seen indicates that KOMO and DTV still haven't come to terms. Since Dish carries KOMO, I doubt there is any serious issue, but why is it taking so long?

You might have better results with the missing stations if you re-orient the antenna, but that may impact your reception of KING, KIRO and KOMO. When KOMO and KCPQ are carried, that would leave KCTS, KSTW and KMYQ, all of whom are on Capitol Hill, so reaiming may help. These may eventually be carried on D*, although that might not happen until next year when new satellites are launched.

Quarque, would you be so kind as to tell me what kind of OTA reception I can expect at Peregrine Point Way SE & SE 42nd Pl (in Issaquah, just off of E Lake Sammamish)? Thanks!


Ivan

Quarque, would you be so kind as to tell me what kind of OTA reception I can expect at Peregrine Point Way SE & SE 42nd Pl (in Issaquah, just off of E Lake Sammamish)? Thanks!


Ivan

Just got back from a week in *cough*, *cough*, eastern Washington. Fortunately we were only in the smoke for a brief while going and coming back. Those fires are scary.

Ivan - your situation looks rather iffy. You have a hill just to the west so your success will depend greatly on how high you can get your antenna. There is always some refraction of signal as it passes over a hill so you may get enough for a lock. The attached file is your 'profile' for QA towers to your house (QA on the right side, your house on the left edge).

Hoping to get some advice...

I live in the Mt. Baker neighborhood in South Seattle, near 30th & McClellan. I currently have a Winegard SS200 SquareShooter antenna mounted to my roof. I was looking for something aesthetically pleasing since I was placing it on the roof. I receive ABC/CBS/NBC pretty well between 304*-306* but cannot pick up FOX/CW/PBS at 246*/327* respectively. I know that my HR10-250 doesn't have the best reception for OTA, but I'm trying to prepare for a HR20-700 when available with active OTA reception.

My question is what are some recommendations if I want to have a single antenna set-up (or multiple, if others are indoors) what is the best way I can receive at least all of the majors, but preferrably CW/PBS as well?

Does anyone live near me and have a set-up that works well?

Lastly, any word on when D* may reach agreements with KOM and KCPQ?

Thanks,
Aaron

You are pretty close to the towers on Cap Hill so one problem may be signal overload. The SS2000 has an amp built in so that does not help. The first thing to try is different orientations and then different locations. Sometimes a few degrees or a 6" move will make or break a channel.

You can also try adding an attenuator (RS 15-678) where the cable comes into the receiver. If that all fails then get a Channel Master 4221 and try again. Being in an urban area makes it more difficult because of all the reflections you get. Patience is your best tool.

Hi guys, Well, I just upacked my LCD HDTV and you know what that means, I need content! My plan is to try OTA until the HD tivo arrives, so...

This is what antennaweb tells me:

* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 138° 1.6 41
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 235° 1.5 38
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 234° 1.4 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 241° 1.6 39
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 138° 1.7 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 139° 1.7 36
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 234° 1.4 31

now what?! I'm at 2020 Broadway (& Boston) on north capitol hill.

Is it worth my time to try OTA, and if so which antenna should I get? Would I be better off just calling comcast (ugh!) as my tv does QAM. I totally don't want a set top box!

Also, why isn't fox on that list? are they not broadcasting in HD or am I just too far away?

I totally realize these questions have all been asked a million times in some from or another, thanks for your patience!
Thanks!

You can *try* OTA but you are in a somewhat tough spot. The local signals are mostly going over your head. KCPQ is about 90 degrees off your line to Cap Hill so that may be very tough for a single antenna with a fixed orientation. If you are the adventurous type and don't mind wasting some time and money, give it a shot. If not, call Comcast. I finally did, sigh...

I've been able to receive all three of the PBS Digital channels for months now without any problem. This morning, all three of them stopped working for me. I live in the Northgate area. Regular channel 9 on my VHF antenna works fine. Everything else that I normall can get is working fine. Anyone else having this trouble?

I've been able to receive all three of the PBS Digital channels for months now without any problem. This morning, all three of them stopped working for me. I live in the Northgate area. Regular channel 9 on my VHF antenna works fine. Everything else that I normall can get is working fine. Anyone else having this trouble?

I'm in Kenmore. kcts-dt OTA is down here also. They must be doing maintenance.

I have a CM 4221 installed on the side of my house and I'm able to get the following channels without any trouble...

5.1, 9.1, 9.5, 11.1, 22.1

Problem is, the channels I really want are 4.1, 5.1, 7.1 & 11.1. The total coax RG6 run from antenna to my receiver is roughly 25'. The antenna is mounted about 10-12' feet above the ground (the highest I can put it).

What can I do to improve my signal? Would adding an amplifier/pre-amplifier make a difference? I also find it odd that if I receive 5.1 without problems, I don't receive 4.1 & 7.1 for free; since the compass direction and miles are almost identical.

Here are the details for my location from AntennaWeb (if somone could provide me wit topo information, that would be great too)....

Intersection/Address: 174th PL SE & 34th DR SE, BOTHELL, WA 98012

* yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 216° 35.2 18
* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 181° 16.4 41
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 181° 16.5 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 181° 16.5 36
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 16.2 48
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 190° 16.3 39
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 189° 16.3 38
* blue - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 189° 16.2 31

I've also attached the information I entered at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

Any help to get this working would be much appreciated; if anyone is local and could provide some expert help; I'd be willing to contribute to a beer fund :)

Thanks in advance

Hi guys, Well, I just upacked my LCD HDTV and you know what that means, I need content! My plan is to try OTA until the HD tivo arrives, so...

This is what antennaweb tells me:

* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 138° 1.6 41
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 235° 1.5 38
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 234° 1.4 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 241° 1.6 39
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 138° 1.7 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 139° 1.7 36
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 234° 1.4 31

now what?! I'm at 2020 Broadway (& Boston) on north capitol hill.

Is it worth my time to try OTA, and if so which antenna should I get? Would I be better off just calling comcast (ugh!) as my tv does QAM. I totally don't want a set top box!

Also, why isn't fox on that list? are they not broadcasting in HD or am I just too far away?

I totally realize these questions have all been asked a million times in some from or another, thanks for your patience!
Thanks!


rschroed
A 4221 antenna will work fine, IF, IF you can find a path through the trees around you. The signals are so hot there they bounce off everything, yet you have a wide spread for all the stations. You need to be outside, too. I've done several around you, one only a block north. You also need to attenuate the signal at least 10db, maybe more. The RatShack adjustable 20db item would work fine. Fox comes from Gold Mt, SW of Bremerton. It shouldn't be a problem for the 4221.
Dan

Hi guys, Well, I just upacked my LCD HDTV and you know what that means, I need content! My plan is to try OTA until the HD tivo arrives, so...

This is what antennaweb tells me:

* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 138° 1.6 41
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 235° 1.5 38
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 234° 1.4 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 241° 1.6 39
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 138° 1.7 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 139° 1.7 36
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 234° 1.4 31

now what?! I'm at 2020 Broadway (& Boston) on north capitol hill.

Is it worth my time to try OTA, and if so which antenna should I get? Would I be better off just calling comcast (ugh!) as my tv does QAM. I totally don't want a set top box!

Also, why isn't fox on that list? are they not broadcasting in HD or am I just too far away?

I totally realize these questions have all been asked a million times in some from or another, thanks for your patience!
Thanks!


rschroed
A 4221 antenna will work fine, IF, IF you can find a path through the trees around you. The signals are so hot there they bounce off everything, yet you have a wide spread for all the stations. You need to be outside, too. I've done several around you, one only a block north. You also need to attenuate the signal at least 10db, maybe more. The RatShack adjustable 20db item would work fine. Fox comes from Gold Mt, SW of Bremerton. It shouldn't be a problem for the 4221.
Dan

Hoping to get some advice...

I live in the Mt. Baker neighborhood in South Seattle, near 30th & McClellan. I currently have a Winegard SS200 SquareShooter antenna mounted to my roof. I was looking for something aesthetically pleasing since I was placing it on the roof. I receive ABC/CBS/NBC pretty well between 304*-306* but cannot pick up FOX/CW/PBS at 246*/327* respectively. I know that my HR10-250 doesn't have the best reception for OTA, but I'm trying to prepare for a HR20-700 when available with active OTA reception.

My question is what are some recommendations if I want to have a single antenna set-up (or multiple, if others are indoors) what is the best way I can receive at least all of the majors, but preferrably CW/PBS as well?

Does anyone live near me and have a set-up that works well?

Lastly, any word on when D* may reach agreements with KOM and KCPQ?

Thanks,
Aaron

Aaron
The hill to the west is what gives trouble with FOX. It's not that the signal is all that weak, just chopped up. And then your tuner is trying to pull it in when the other channels are coming in strong. When you attenuate the strong ones, FOX gets weak. The Square shooter is not that swift. A 4221 works much better and isn't that much bigger. I have one working at Bayview and 33rd. FOX is touch and go there.
Dan

I have a CM 4221 installed on the side of my house and I'm able to get the following channels without any trouble...

5.1, 9.1, 9.5, 11.1, 22.1

Problem is, the channels I really want are 4.1, 5.1, 7.1 & 11.1. The total coax RG6 run from antenna to my receiver is roughly 25'. The antenna is mounted about 10-12' feet above the ground (the highest I can put it).

What can I do to improve my signal? Would adding an amplifier/pre-amplifier make a difference? I also find it odd that if I receive 5.1 without problems, I don't receive 4.1 & 7.1 for free; since the compass direction and miles are almost identical.

Here are the details for my location from AntennaWeb (if somone could provide me wit topo information, that would be great too)....

Intersection/Address: 174th PL SE & 34th DR SE, BOTHELL, WA 98012

* yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 216° 35.2 18
* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 181° 16.4 41
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 181° 16.5 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 181° 16.5 36
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 16.2 48
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 190° 16.3 39
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 189° 16.3 38
* blue - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 189° 16.2 31

I've also attached the information I entered at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

Any help to get this working would be much appreciated; if anyone is local and could provide some expert help; I'd be willing to contribute to a beer fund :)

Thanks in advance

hmss007
Although the ch's 4,5,7 are together on QA hill, they're different frequncies, power output, and other factors. A preamp may help, but not likely. It's the trees to the SW of you. I know they don't look like they're that much of a problem, but they are. I found the signals there to be fairly strong, enough that I haven't had to use a preamp. If you want to try one, use a 7775 Chan Master. Antenna location can be pretty fussy. Sometimes, a big yagi worked better.
I would try other locations around the house before doing anything else. It won't take much change. A few inches in any direction can make or break it.
Dan

rschroed
A 4221 antenna will work fine, IF, IF you can find a path through the trees around you.

Dan

Thanks, I'll give it try. There aren't a lot of trees in me immediate line of site so hopefully it work out. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Ryan

I'm in Kenmore. kcts-dt OTA is down here also. They must be doing maintenance.

Ditto frm near the U-district -- no 9-1 or 9-5. I checked their web, called their phone numbers, e-mailed their contact address... nada. Good thing we live in an age of great communication.

I'd been planning to record Mystery! tonight plus the Hillerman mystery at 10pm. Doesn't look good at this point.

Hey all,

I keep trying to fine tune my antenna to get the best signal. On my D* HR10-250, I get a 71 signal on all of the QA stations. 4 and 5 are nailed at 71 and never change, but while KIRO 7 usually stays at 71, it bounces around often enough to make it annoying at best, unwatchable at worst. Do other people find that KIRO is the hardest to receive a good signal?

FWIW, I'm in Redmond (Novelty Hill area) and am using an attic mounted ratshack XV90 antenna with the 15-2507 preamp/amp. I only apply a bit of gain (for 60' RG6 loss) since I'm so close, but need the preamp due to lots of neighboring house roof reflection.

BoB

I am missing all of the KCTS digital channels since some time yesterday. Does anyone know if they are having problems? Other OTA HD appears normal here, so I don't suspect a problem with my equipment.

I am missing all of the KCTS digital channels since some time yesterday. Does anyone know if they are having problems? Other OTA HD appears normal here, so I don't suspect a problem with my equipment.

Yeah, they're off the air right now. No ETA on return.

BoB

Yeah, they're off the air right now. No ETA on return.

BoB

Thanks. I was on the previous page of the thread and missed the other postings on this.

Hey all,

I keep trying to fine tune my antenna to get the best signal. On my D* HR10-250, I get a 71 signal on all of the QA stations. 4 and 5 are nailed at 71 and never change, but while KIRO 7 usually stays at 71, it bounces around often enough to make it annoying at best, unwatchable at worst. Do other people find that KIRO is the hardest to receive a good signal?

FWIW, I'm in Redmond (Novelty Hill area) and am using an attic mounted ratshack XV90 antenna with the 15-2507 preamp/amp. I only apply a bit of gain (for 60' RG6 loss) since I'm so close, but need the preamp due to lots of neighboring house roof reflection.

BoB

It depends a lot on where you are located, even though 4,5,7 and 16 are all on Queen Anne Hill. I am in Eagledale (Bainbridge Island) and 4 is the one which gives me the most problems. I have tried several antennas and locations on my roof and a foot or so change in location can make a big difference. If it weren't for trees, these all would be line-of-sight, so I am surprised at the difficulty in reception.

The best reception I have gotten was with the antenna inside the house! The stations on Capitol Hill all come in fine. Hopefully one of these days DirecTV will carry KOMO and KCPQ and I'll only need OTA for KCTS and KSTW.

Is the PBS Channels being off the air also affecting Channel 11 (Whatever the call letters are for this channel nowadays)?

The best reception I have gotten was with the antenna inside the house! The stations on Capitol Hill all come in fine. Hopefully one of these days DirecTV will carry KOMO and KCPQ and I'll only need OTA for KCTS and KSTW.

What antenna and where in the house did you put it?

Thanks!
BoB

Is the PBS Channels being off the air also affecting Channel 11 (Whatever the call letters are for this channel nowadays)?
No, channel 11 (CW) was still fine last time I checked yesterday evening.

Is the PBS Channels being off the air also affecting Channel 11 (Whatever the call letters are for this channel nowadays)?

I'm getting CH 11-1 OK. A person with KCTS viewer services replied to my query this morning and said, "We sincerely apologize for the technical difficulties you are
encountering with our digital broadcast signal. Please rest assured
that our engineers are making every effort to rectify the problem
expeditiously. At this time, I am unable to say exactly when this issue
will be fixed, but I have been told that there is hope that the
replacement parts will be ready by [Monday] evening."

Ok... Channel 11 (CW) has always been a little weak for me, especially during the daytime, but the reception would improve at night time. Now, it won't come in at any time of day. I'd hate to have to go on my roof for antenna adjustment. Especailly, since all the other channels seem to be fine. Not sure if 11 has anything worth watching, anyway.

What antenna and where in the house did you put it?

Thanks!
BoB

It's a Winegard PR-4400 (similar to ChannelMaster CM-4225). Although it worked best sitting on my lap in the house, I decided to mount it elsewhere :)

I have it on the roof in a position where I can get KOMO marginally, KIRO a little better and KING, KSTW, KMYQ and KCTS very good. When I had it in the house, I could also receive ch. 33.

I see that Jeopardy on Ch 4 is supposedly in HD tonight. It looks pretty sharp, but is in 4:3 rather than 16:9. Is Sony broadcasting it that way or did KOMO goof?

I see that Jeopardy on Ch 4 is supposedly in HD tonight. It looks pretty sharp, but is in 4:3 rather than 16:9. Is Sony broadcasting it that way or did KOMO goof? I've never seen it is HD yet.

Wheel and Jeopardy are currently being distributed to some stations in HD, however KOMO is currently unable to air the HD version. The reason is that Wheel and Jeop are in 1080I HD format, whereas KOMO, (and all other ABC affiliated stations), are native 720P HD format.

We are looking at some options to record the feed from the program syndicator in 1080I, but would then need to create a format-converted version to 720P. For those of you that aren't aware of the differences in HD formats, format conversion on a daily basis is a rather expensive and work-intensive process that we don't have a workflow devised yet.

Obviously if King World/Sony Entertainment would be willing to also distribute the show in 720P, it would make our life easier, but 1080I is Sony's standard, so it will probably be on us to figure out a way to provide daily record and format conversion.

Wheel and Jeopardy are currently being distributed to some stations in HD, however KOMO is currently unable to air the HD version. The reason is that Wheel and Jeop are in 1080I HD format, whereas KOMO, (and all other ABC affiliated stations), are native 720P HD format.

We are looking at some options to record the feed from the program syndicator in 1080I, but would then need to create a format-converted version to 720P. For those of you that aren't aware of the differences in HD formats, format conversion on a daily basis is a rather expensive and work-intensive process that we don't have a workflow devised yet.

Obviously if King World/Sony Entertainment would be willing to also distribute the show in 720P, it would make our life easier, but 1080I is Sony's standard, so it will probably be on us to figure out a way to provide daily record and format conversion.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm surprised that there isn't a commercial product which does the 1080i-720p conversion in pseudo-real time. There certainly should be a market for such a device. I realize it isn't quite the same thing, but my DirecTV receiver can output 720p from a station broadcasting in 1080i and vice-versa (hopefully without introducing too many artifacts--I don't notice any, but as I grow older my eyes don't see all that they once did).

Wheel and Jeopardy are currently being distributed to some stations in HD, however KOMO is currently unable to air the HD version. The reason is that Wheel and Jeop are in 1080I HD format, whereas KOMO, (and all other ABC affiliated stations), are native 720P HD format.

We are looking at some options to record the feed from the program syndicator in 1080I, but would then need to create a format-converted version to 720P. For those of you that aren't aware of the differences in HD formats, format conversion on a daily basis is a rather expensive and work-intensive process that we don't have a workflow devised yet.

Obviously if King World/Sony Entertainment would be willing to also distribute the show in 720P, it would make our life easier, but 1080I is Sony's standard, so it will probably be on us to figure out a way to provide daily record and format conversion.

There are a large number of ABC affiliates that are carrying Wheel and Jeopardy, and most of them are successfully showing it in HD. You should check with them to see how they are doing it. Call down the coast to KABC or over to WABC, for example. I'm sure they would help you out.

Or just show it in 1080i. KCTS switches back and forth between 720p and 1080i depending on what they are showing.

Currently Wheel and Jeopardy SD, arrives at KOMO in a file format from a distribution company called Pathfire. We essentially take the file, and move it just like a drag-and-drop of any file into our standard def servers for playout. In order to take the feed in HD, we would have to record it onto a 1080I tape machine in real time from satellite, dub it via a Universal Format Converter in real time to a 720P tape machine, then air it from tape.

KABC has a fiber circuit from Sony Entertainment, and receives the feed daily down the fiber in real time, then is injested into their HD playout server. For obvious reasons, KOMO is unable to duplicate the same process as KABC has. But thanks for the suggestions.

We're looking at options.

A quick Google search revealed several products which do this type of conversion (Analogway, Snell & Wilcox, to name two manufacturers).

I have an internal PCI HDTV card that will record in HD format. I think this is pretty standard. The file format ends in "TP". I would be surprised if your KOMO files are anything different than this. There is no difference between 1080i or 720P, or even 480i for that matter - they can all be recorded in this HD digital format. I think the more formal definition is "DTV Transport Stream."

When I play this file back, my decoder card, a MyHD card, will let me pick the output format, regardess of what it was recorded at. I can change to whatever I want. These .tp files will play with other HD cards in completely different computers.

KOMO makes it sound like there is a huge difference between 1080i and 720P. There is not. They are both HD formats recorded the same way, to the same files. And here is one more thought. If they can drop the file into their SD feed, at some point this 1080i is getting converted to SD. And now they are trying to say they can't convert it to 720P?

If the KOMO problem were in fact true, how did channel 9 PBS in Seattle get away with shifting everything to 720P last month? Up till then, it was all 1080i (which looked bad, by the way.) Is everything channel 9 ever showed in 1080i, suddenly useless? Does channel 9 require all programming sent to them to be produced in 720P? No way. Whatever system channel 9 is using to play back the material is converting it to 720P on-the-fly, during the broadcast process.

One final thought. KOMO says that they are converting Jeopardy to SD. This isn't technically true. If you watch OTA HD, Jeopardy is the 4:3 dimensions of SD, but it isn't SD - it is HD just cropped and fuzzier. It is digital.

I just went to Pathfires website. It says they distribute in ISO-MPEG, which can be edited at the station. This format can be any resolution, up to both HD formats.

I bet KOMO doesn't even get the HD Jeopardy from Pathfire. I bet they pay less money and get the SD digital version. That is my guess.

OMG. You people are awesome. We have an engineer from a TV station posting the reality of how TV works, and in a couple of posts, you imply that you know more then the expert.

Kelly specifically said that only the SD version is available on the Pathfire system. Having used Pathfire myself, that doesn't surprise me. Kelly says that the HD version of the shows are available only by satellite. Why would he lie about that? Clearly they have the ability to take in a 1080i satellite feed, but the ability to record it is not a snap of the fingers issue (see KING 5 and the SNL debacle). I've never been to KOMO, but I know it is a state of the art facility where they have made some tough choices on where to spend money. Would it be awesome to have Wheel and Jep in HD? Absolutely. But to risk our pipeline to the inside by insulting a man who comes here with great information is asinine.

If you don't like it, you don't have to pay your KOMO bill next month. Oh yeah, it's free. It's TV, people!

Wow Mike, interesting conspiracy theory with a heaping dose of cynicism too! ;>)
It did make for a good chuckle though.

For a broadcast operation, the HD format transmitted depends on the HD encoder setting to the transmitter, or cable system. KOMO's HD encoding is set to 720P, and everything going into the encoding equipment is either native 720P, SMPTE 310, or upconverted SD. Unfortunately you aren't able to input 1080I HD content, and have it automatically convert to 720P, (or in our case 18.48001mb/s ASI) out of the encoder. Plus you really can't change formats back and forth on the fly at the encoder level without really effecting the receiving device or cable box during the change, (ie. going off line during the transition, lip sync problems, etc.), as it involves changing several settings in the encoder, and subsequent off-air time.

Continuous sync of the digital bit stream is VERY important. Some on this forum probably still remember when KOMO started out doing HD years ago, that every time we just switched between HD from ABC, and upconverted content. A non synchronous switch of even the slightest amount would cause a multitude of problems at the viewer level depending on receiver or cable box type including loss of video, macro-blocking, audio pops and lip-sync loss. Once can only imagine what switching formats and bit rates on the fly could do to the transmission!

I haven't spoken with Tim over at KCTS lately, but I don't believe they have been changing HD formats, but experimenting with different bit rates. Tim called me a month ago, and asked what bit rates we were using in KOMO's encoding process, and mentioned that they would be trying out some different combinations. I need to schedule a lunch with him anyway, so I'll confirm my suspicions and report back.

To an extent Mike, you're correct at the consumer level, (ie the TV or receiving device), that one doesn't notice any real difference between 720P and 1080I. But on the broadcast encoding and transmit side trust me, it is important. If we didn't pay attention to such details, you won't see anything on your set at home.

And to clarify one other comment you made. Pathfire, (which yes is where we get Wheel and Jeop. currently), only supplies it in SD, (Standard Def 4:3), due to the bandwidth and storage requirements of HD to their Pathfire server. The HD version is fed from satellite in a non-file format.

All The Best,

Kelly

Thanks Kelly. I figured there was more to it than my simplistic view. Are we dealing with too many standards here? If there were only 1080i or only 720p, it would seem to make life easier, at least for you folks at the stations.

Every time I've checked the past few weeks, KCTS has been broadcasting in 720p, whereas before it was always 1080i. I can't tell with my HD set, but I have an EyeTV box on my Macintosh and it can show the video stream information.

According information on the KCTS web site, they are dropping KCTS kids at the end of the month in order to run HD full time.

Thanks Kelly for keeping us up to date on what your doing and the technology KOMO is using, I really appreciate it and find it very interesting. Out of all the stations in Seattle broadcasting HD I think that KOMO is the HD leader, I wish some of the other stations would take some cues from you guys.

Kelly - Since I can't seem to get a clear explanation from Direct tv. Any idea what the holdup is in working out a HD deal between KOMO and D. ?

Hey Kelly, lunch anytime is good. Call me.

KCTS is operating the entire plant here at 1080i. The conversion to 720p takes place just ahead of our Harris flexicoders. This was done to make the coding more efficent for our HD service. KCTS >DOES NOT< switch between 1080i and 720p. This would make nightmares that I don't even want to think about. As many people have accuratly observed our 1080i efforts were less than stellar. The 720p looks much better. When you cram as much stuff into the pipe as we do you need all the help you can get.

As Kelly has pointed out, in a broadcast facility you can't just go whacking formats without considering the effect on the receive device, whatever it may be. Accordingly, KCTS makes one real-time conversion from 1080i to 720p just ahead of our redundant encoders and that is what is presented to our viewers.

FWIW KCTS encodes our H.D. (9-5) at 12.2 Mbps our S.D. simulcast at 3.75 Mbps, Kids (9-2) at 4.0 Mbps and Create (9-3) at 3.0 Mbps. The H.D. barker slide that runs on 9-5 when we are in 3 channel mode is at 2.0 Mbps.

Begining September 28 KCTS will discontinue the (9-2) Kids channel and begin full-time H.D. service with a mux containing 9-1, 9-3 and 9-5.

Wow Mike, interesting conspiracy theory with a heaping dose of cynicism too! ;>)
It did make for a good chuckle though.

For a broadcast operation, the HD format transmitted depends on the HD encoder setting to the transmitter, or cable system. KOMO's HD encoding is set to 720P, and everything going into the encoding equipment is either native 720P, SMPTE 310, or upconverted SD. Unfortunately you aren't able to input 1080I HD content, and have it automatically convert to 720P, (or in our case 18.48001mb/s ASI) out of the encoder. Plus you really can't change formats back and forth on the fly at the encoder level without really effecting the receiving device or cable box during the change, (ie. going off line during the transition, lip sync problems, etc.), as it involves changing several settings in the encoder, and subsequent off-air time.

Continuous sync of the digital bit stream is VERY important. Some on this forum probably still remember when KOMO started out doing HD years ago, that every time we just switched between HD from ABC, and upconverted content. A non synchronous switch of even the slightest amount would cause a multitude of problems at the viewer level depending on receiver or cable box type including loss of video, macro-blocking, audio pops and lip-sync loss. Once can only imagine what switching formats and bit rates on the fly could do to the transmission!

I haven't spoken with Tim over at KCTS lately, but I don't believe they have been changing HD formats, but experimenting with different bit rates. Tim called me a month ago, and asked what bit rates we were using in KOMO's encoding process, and mentioned that they would be trying out some different combinations. I need to schedule a lunch with him anyway, so I'll confirm my suspicions and report back.

To an extent Mike, you're correct at the consumer level, (ie the TV or receiving device), that one doesn't notice any real difference between 720P and 1080I. But on the broadcast encoding and transmit side trust me, it is important. If we didn't pay attention to such details, you won't see anything on your set at home.

And to clarify one other comment you made. Pathfire, (which yes is where we get Wheel and Jeop. currently), only supplies it in SD, (Standard Def 4:3), due to the bandwidth and storage requirements of HD to their Pathfire server. The HD version is fed from satellite in a non-file format.

All The Best,

Kelly

Tim, Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. I didn't know you were monitoring, but glad you are and able to represent what KCTS is doing on the transmission front. I'll be off for a week beginning Sept. 25th, so I'll give you a call and we can have a nice quiet lunch sometime that week.

Forum Junkie, I really haven't been involved in the negotiations between KOMO and Direct TV, so I can't say what the timeline is. What I do know is the discussions are in process, but that's all the information I have. Just know that both parties want this resolved ASAP.

Best Regards to the Group, and thanks for watching KOMO DT.

Kelly

kelly and tschall,

Thanks very much for sharing interesting facts about the environments you are working in.

I for one have complete faith in your convictions, organizationally and personally, to give us the best quality you possibly can within the limitations of your budgets and plant.

I have been watching HDTV in Seattle since early 2000. Those folks who are newer to the HDTV scene in Seattle may not appreciate how much effort and frustration you all have been through to continuously improve the results we see and hear.

You guys, along with Don W., Ron Diotte and brownnet (is that Dave?), besides being valuable contributors to HDTV progress in Seattle, have greatly improved the knowledge base here on the AVS Forum.

Thanks again for your dedication and persistence.

Budget_HT-

Thanks for the shoutout... I don't work for one of the broadcast stations, but I do work for a company that produces HD programming locally... one that many, many people have expressed interest in having access to, but right now isn't on Comcast. That's about as much as I'll say right now. Props to the guys who ID themselves, it is great to read what they write.

kelly and tschall,

Thanks very much for sharing interesting facts about the environments you are working in.

I for one have complete faith in your convictions, organizationally and personally, to give us the best quality you possibly can within the limitations of your budgets and plant.

I have been watching HDTV in Seattle since early 2000. Those folks who are newer to the HDTV scene in Seattle may not appreciate how much effort and frustration you all have been through to continuously improve the results we see and hear.

You guys, along with Don W., Ron Diotte and brownnet (is that Dave?), besides being valuable contributors to HDTV progress in Seattle, have greatly improved the knowledge base here on the AVS Forum.

Thanks again for your dedication and persistence.

Indeed! Having station engineers as participants on this forum is a welcome breath of fresh air, not to mention informative and interesting! Thanks guys. BTW, anyone heard from Don W. lately?

Indeed! Having station engineers as participants on this forum is a welcome breath of fresh air, not to mention informative and interesting! Thanks guys. BTW, anyone heard from Don W. lately?

I had an email from him last week. He has been helpful with some reception problems I have been having.

Tim, Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

I haven't been participating in this forum lately, but I came here because of the new bug design in the Komo news broadcasts. About two years ago someone at KOMO indicated they were working on a new design, and I sort of gave up on it ever happening.

Little did I dream it would be worse than the old one! Yes it has less solid white, which makes it better (from a burn in point of view), but it's even more obnoxious than the old one.

Most networks and stations have gone to subtle, even translucent bugs. Komo has gone to an in your face bug that is just plain annoying. Very unprofessional, IMHO.

I had an email from him last week. He has been helpful with some reception problems I have been having.

OK, good. I was afraid Don's lack of posts on the forum may have meant something had happened to him. Probably just having too much fun with his boat! :)

I haven't been participating in this forum lately, but I came here because of the new bug design in the Komo news broadcasts. About two years ago someone at KOMO indicated they were working on a new design, and I sort of gave up on it ever happening.

Little did I dream it would be worse than the old one! Yes it has less solid white, which makes it better (from a burn in point of view), but it's even more obnoxious than the old one.

Most networks and stations have gone to subtle, even translucent bugs. Komo has gone to an in your face bug that is just plain annoying. Very unprofessional, IMHO.

I agree! I'd like to see the FCC ban all 'bugs' except for station ID on the 30's. We've waited all these years for pristine high-def pictures and now they are getting cluttered with advertising. Who needs to know *constantly* that they are watching a particular channel. If you need to know you can read the display on your box or call it up with the remote.

When digital broadcasting started I predicted that stations would opt for multiple SD subchannels and lower quality HD over a single high-quality high-def channel. My next prediction is that your screen will have an entire ring of icons around it in a few years ("ads" that you can't fast-forward through).

Begining September 28 KCTS will discontinue the (9-2) Kids channel and begin full-time H.D. service with a mux containing 9-1, 9-3 and 9-5.Thank you for the info. May I ask why 9-2 is dropped? Back to school? WASL is down? I thought that is one of the more trusted channels that we have our kids watch.

Thank you,
Luong

I agree! I'd like to see the FCC ban all 'bugs' except for station ID on the 30's. We've waited all these years for pristine high-def pictures and now they are getting cluttered with advertising. Who needs to know *constantly* that they are watching a particular channel. .

I don't mind the subtle ones, like the NBC and CBS ones on network programming, where they are basically almost shadows.

I think KING's HD news has a more subtle one, and I'll find out shortly since I switched my Favorites recording to King. KOMO has better HD and 16:9 field cameras, and I like their on air crew better, but I'll miss out on all that just to avoid that new bug.

Thank you for the info. May I ask why 9-2 is dropped? Back to school? WASL is down? I thought that is one of the more trusted channels that we have our kids watch.

Thank you,
Luong

Here's what they said in the monthly newsletter:

KCTS-HD to Become a 24/7 Service
Beginning October 1, KCTS-HD (a service available to viewers with high definition television sets), will become a 24-hour service. To free up the bandwidth required to make the switch, our KCTS Kids digital channel, which previously aired from 6:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. weekdays, will end service. The quality children's programming you've come to expect from KCTS will continue to be available on our primary channel weekdays from 6:00 a.m. to noon and 2:00 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.; Saturdays from 6:00 to 10:00 a.m. and Sundays from 7:00 to 10:00 a.m.

According to tschall's post the date is actually September 28.

Well, I watched King's Evening news, and it's even more of an HD joke than it used to be. Now most the studio shots of the anchors are not HD (or at least not 16:9 HD). There was a better bug when it was HD (translusent), but the one for the 4:3 shots is almost as bad as the new KOMO bug.

I guess it was easier for KING to use fewer 16:9 scenes than to figure out what the image field of a 16:9 scene is! :D

Watching the Oregon vs Oklahoma on KOMO and it is "supposed" to be in HD but is only being broadcast in SD for me. Anyone getting this in HD?

Watching the Oregon vs Oklahoma on KOMO and it is "supposed" to be in HD but is only being broadcast in SD for me. Anyone getting this in HD?

I'm in the Portland market and it's in SD for me as well. Very annoying...

I'm in the Portland market and it's in SD for me as well. Very annoying...

It's very annoying? I hope that doesn't mean Keith Jackson has come out of retirement again! :D

The weird thing is it briefly showed the other game in HD, then switched to the Oregon game (the correct game) in SD. I'm happy to be getting the right game, but I'd be happier if it were in HD (and happier still if the score were reversed right now).

I thought Star Trek on 11.1 tonight was supposed to have been remastered to HD. It's 4:3 and doesn't look like 720p/1080i to me.

See this story re: remastered Star Trek:

http://www.tvweek.com/page.cms?pageId=284

I'm waiting for the Seahawks game to start and I was watching the NFL game on KIRO HD (7.1) and it is coming in SD for me.

Last year, all NFL games were HD.

Anybody else notice this?

I want to know if it's just a problem with my Dish 921 receiver, or is the game really SD today?

Thanks,

Steve

I'm waiting for the Seahawks game to start and I was watching the NFL game on KIRO HD (7.1) and it is coming in SD for me.

Last year, all NFL games were HD.

Anybody else notice this?

I want to know if it's just a problem with my Dish 921 receiver, or is the game really SD today?

Thanks,

Steve

Yes, that game was in SD.

Thanks Rob.

The seahawks game on 13.1 was in HD so I was happy.

Strange that the CBS game was SD.

I use a combo of DirecTV and an OTA attena for HD local channels. My issue is - I live in Fremont, and can't get a FD signal for Fox (13) because Queen Anne Hill is in the way :(

Is there any work around to this?

Is there one direction I can point my HD OTA antenna to get all the stations?

Thanks in advance.

I have an internal PCI HDTV card that will record in HD format. I think this is pretty standard. The file format ends in "TP". I would be surprised if your KOMO files are anything different than this.

This is an MPEG-2 Transport Stream. It's documented in the ISO/IEC 13818-1 standard, which you can find on the Internet if you look hard enough. The audio and video are stored in separate streams in a format called Packetized Elementary Streams. These are each broken up into tiny 188 byte packets and combined, or multiplexed, together into the transport stream.

720p and 1080i are different. They are different resolutions. KOMO does not want to change the resolution they are broadcasting.


When I play this file back, my decoder card, a MyHD card, will let me pick the output format, regardess of what it was recorded at. I can change to whatever I want.

In order to broadcast something, it needs to be compressed. Your software is decompressing the MPEG2 video and scaling it to another resolution, but is not re-compressing it back into MPEG-2. That last step is by far the hardest. Of course, it sounds like KOMOs problem is how primitive their workflow is. It seems like some kind of 1960s timewarp where they have to copy data to tapes and manually move them from machine to machine. I wonder if next time someone forgets to throw the HD switch after a commercial it will be blamed on a jammed punch-card.

I just went to Pathfires website. It says they distribute in ISO-MPEG, which can be edited at the station. This format can be any resolution, up to both HD formats.

It sounds like pathfire doesn't distribute anything HD yet. It's the same reason Star Trek is being re-mastered into HD, but only shown in SD.

It's funny, those evil priates have figured out how to distribute television in HD on the Internet, but the studios themselves can't do it. Maybe KOMO should air Jeopardy a day late, and then they can download the HD version with a certain well-known data distribution system like everyone else.

Thanks rdn.

I use a combo of DirecTV and an OTA attena for HD local channels. My issue is - I live in Fremont, and can't get a FD signal for Fox (13) because Queen Anne Hill is in the way :(

Is there any work around to this?

Is there one direction I can point my HD OTA antenna to get all the stations?

Thanks in advance.

That's a tough one. I can't get 13 either with a hill much smaller than Queen Anne in the way. KCPQ HD will be on DirecTV eventually, we just need to wait a bit longer.

Not sure what everyone is talking about. The Star Trek episode last Saturday was in extraordinary HD resolution. Of course the display format is not in 16:9 because it was never filmed in that ratio. But the scanning of the original film looks amazing. It was definitely shown in HD!

Not sure what everyone is talking about. The Star Trek episode last Saturday was in extraordinary HD resolution. Of course the display format is not in 16:9 because it was never filmed in that ratio. But the scanning of the original film looks amazing. It was definitely shown in HD!
Sorry, but you were just seeing some very good SD. HD by definition is either 720p or 1080i and has to be 16:9 because of that. It was also well documented in various articles around the net that they will not be distributing it in HD for "a while" - whatever that means. Even if they do distribute it in HD it won't be truly HD because the original source material is not HD. It may look very good but it ain't HD.

Not sure what everyone is talking about. The Star Trek episode last Saturday was in extraordinary HD resolution. Of course the display format is not in 16:9 because it was never filmed in that ratio. But the scanning of the original film looks amazing. It was definitely shown in HD!
I agree with quarque. It was very good SD, upconverted by KSTW for broadcast in 4x3 1080i. It would look MUCH better in true HD!

I use a combo of DirecTV and an OTA attena for HD local channels. My issue is - I live in Fremont, and can't get a FD signal for Fox (13) because Queen Anne Hill is in the way :(

Is there any work around to this?

If you have tried all the available locations and orientations for your antenna, then no.


Is there one direction I can point my HD OTA antenna to get all the stations?

Thanks in advance.

see #1 above

I agre with quarque. It was very good SD, upconverted by KSTW for broadcast in 4x3 1080i. It would look MUCH better in true HD!
Yes it would. But would the "HD" version still be 4x3 format with bars or cropped top/bottom to 16:9 or stetched to 16:9 or ??? I'm not sure what they mean by "HD" version.

I read in one of the threads on one of these forums that they are producing a 16x9 HD version and a 4x3 SD version of each enhanced episode. I have no idea if those posts were accurate, but I think they were quotes from an industry publication IIRC.

So how do you convert 4x3 material to 16:9 without some serious degradation or distortion? If they crop the top & bottom we'll miss that fabulous Kirk hair!

I don't know the specifics for Star Trek. But I recall reading about the HDNet presentations of Hogan's Heros. Hopefully my memory is close to accurate here.

The series was filmed on 35 mm, which is a bit wider than 4x3 but not quite as wide as 16x9. So the 4x3 TV version originally aired had its sides cropped off a bit.

To create a 16x9 version (which I later heard was a bit shy of "16 wide") they used the full original width and cropped a small amount from the top and/or bottom.

The weakest link with these older programs is the medium quality mono audio. It feels a little strange watching HD widescreen video while listening to much lower quality audio.

The discussion I recall also indicated that the same opportunity exists for many popular older TV series that were originally on 35 mm film masters.

For Star Trek "enhanced" they re-recorded more recent versions of the theme and it is now in at least stereo--maybe more once we get to see/hear the HD version (my speculation here--I don't remember reading about what was being done with audio beyond the opening and closing music).

Perhaps someone has more accurate recall in these areas. I think I am close, but some details could be off.

Even if they do distribute it in HD it won't be truly HD because the original source material is not HD. It may look very good but it ain't HD.

Actually it could end up being true HD when/if they decide to put it out in HD. From what I read it was remastered in HD, it's just that the studio decided not to distribute it in HD at this time. I've heard various reasons like 'not all the stations have the capability so we want to wait', to 'stations don't have the resources to store the episodes ahead of time'. This last one I would tend to believe, if you remember when Enterprise was showing new episodes only the orignal run would be in HD, any repeats later in the week would be SD and KSTW had indicated they can't store shows in HD.

Also HD can be 4x3 with black bars making up the rest of the 16x9 frame, just as you can have 16x9 SD TV with black bars on the top and bottom making up the rest of the 4x3 frame.

Also, long as the show was originally shot with film it can be remastered into HD since film has a higher resolution than HD. If the original was shot to tape then it can't be remastered to HD since it's initial quality was lower, however it can be 'converted' or rather 'upconverted' but it won't look all that good. My undestanding is Star Trek was shot to film.

Also, long as the show was originally shot with film it can be remastered into HD since film has a higher resolution than HD. If the original was shot to tape then it can't be remastered to HD since it's initial quality was lower, however it can be 'converted' or rather 'upconverted' but it won't look all that good. My undestanding is Star Trek was shot to film.
OK. I thought it was shot on tape. So if tranferred properly it would be quite stunning in HD.

I don't know the specifics for Star Trek. But I recall reading about the HDNet presentations of Hogan's Heros. Hopefully my memory is close to accurate here.

The series was filmed on 35 mm, which is a bit wider than 4x3 but not quite as wide as 16x9. So the 4x3 TV version originally aired had its sides cropped off a bit.

To create a 16x9 version (which I later heard was a bit shy of "16 wide") they used the full original width and cropped a small amount from the top and/or bottom.

The weakest link with these older programs is the medium quality mono audio. It feels a little strange watching HD widescreen video while listening to much lower quality audio.

The discussion I recall also indicated that the same opportunity exists for many popular older TV series that were originally on 35 mm film masters.

For Star Trek "enhanced" they re-recorded more recent versions of the theme and it is now in at least stereo--maybe more once we get to see/hear the HD version (my speculation here--I don't remember reading about what was being done with audio beyond the opening and closing music).

Perhaps someone has more accurate recall in these areas. I think I am close, but some details could be off.

35mm is 1.37:1 which is quite a ways from 1.77:1 for HD. But I found through some research today that old shows in the 50's - 70's were often shot with tons of headroom around the frame so that the huge overscans of the older TV's would not chop off anything important. Apparently many shows could be cropped from the original film stock into 16:9 without seriously affecting the framing of the scene. Perhaps Star Trek was filmed this way. I really don't want to see black bars!

Currently Wheel and Jeopardy SD, arrives at KOMO in a file format from a distribution company called Pathfire. We essentially take the file, and move it just like a drag-and-drop of any file into our standard def servers for playout. In order to take the feed in HD, we would have to record it onto a 1080I tape machine in real time from satellite, dub it via a Universal Format Converter in real time to a 720P tape machine, then air it from tape.

KABC has a fiber circuit from Sony Entertainment, and receives the feed daily down the fiber in real time, then is injested into their HD playout server. For obvious reasons, KOMO is unable to duplicate the same process as KABC has. But thanks for the suggestions.

We're looking at options.

I assume you are looking at the options that were sent to all of the customer stations?

Here is what they sent as a link for a professional "cross-converter":

Cross Converter (all of $7,500) (http://www.evertz.com/products/7710XC-HD)

or, if you want you could spring for a cross-converting HD-IRD:

Cross-converting HD-IRD ($10,000) (http://www.broadcast.harris.com/television/vnetwork/pdf/netplus.pdf)

First off, I think quarque is a great team player for providing line of sight and topographical information to other members here. I've got my installation sorted, but for some reason, I cannot get NBC-HD [48] from my location in Redmond. I'm in the redmond valley, but not on an East slope nor in any shadow of a large hill. I think i'm getting other signals from Queen Anne because KING-DT is the only channel I'm not getting. My 160" Rat Shack antenna is in the attic facing W-SW. I'm at the intersection of 161st AVE NE and NE 90th St. I'm waiting for my Fusion5 tuner, but the one in my HDTV seems to do pretty well. The analog NBC looks as good as the others, so the VHF reception is acceptable. The only think I can think of is that KING-DT is not broadcasting as powerfully as the other HDTV transmissions.

First off, I think quarque is a great team player for providing line of sight and topographical information to other members here. I've got my installation sorted, but for some reason, I cannot get NBC-HD [48] from my location in Redmond. I'm in the redmond valley, but not on an East slope nor in any shadow of a large hill. I think i'm getting other signals from Queen Anne because KING-DT is the only channel I'm not getting. My 160" Rat Shack antenna is in the attic facing W-SW. I'm at the intersection of 161st AVE NE and NE 90th St. I'm waiting for my Fusion5 tuner, but the one in my HDTV seems to do pretty well. The analog NBC looks as good as the others, so the VHF reception is acceptable. The only think I can think of is that KING-DT is not broadcasting as powerfully as the other HDTV transmissions.

It's more complicated than that. KING has a slightly stronger than KIRO here (much stronger than KOMO). According to

http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm

KING's ERP is the highest. Frequency and trees are factors, in addition to buildings and hills.

First off, I think quarque is a great team player for providing line of sight and topographical information to other members here. I've got my installation sorted, but for some reason, I cannot get NBC-HD [48] from my location in Redmond. I'm in the redmond valley, but not on an East slope nor in any shadow of a large hill. I think i'm getting other signals from Queen Anne because KING-DT is the only channel I'm not getting. My 160" Rat Shack antenna is in the attic facing W-SW. I'm at the intersection of 161st AVE NE and NE 90th St. I'm waiting for my Fusion5 tuner, but the one in my HDTV seems to do pretty well. The analog NBC looks as good as the others, so the VHF reception is acceptable. The only think I can think of is that KING-DT is not broadcasting as powerfully as the other HDTV transmissions.
Analog KONG broadcasts from the same KING tower on channel 16. How is your KONG reception?

Of course, UHF channel 16 is a lower frequency than UHF channel 48, so many influences could differ by frequency range.

Analog KONG broadcasts from the same KING tower on channel 16. How is your KONG reception?


KONG reception is phenomenal. I get analog and both DTV sub-channels 16.1 and 16.2

It's more complicated than that. KING has a slightly stronger than KIRO here (much stronger than KOMO). According to http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm
KING's ERP is the highest. Frequency and trees are factors, in addition to buildings and hills.

Thanks for the link, rdn; that is helpful. I think there must be a slight obstruction or issue with my tuner that prevents this channel from locking. it hovers between 25-50% on the HDTV so i assume it's just below the threshold of acceptable gain / strength.

A little more data: I used a Rat Shack in-line amplifier and it only made the signal worse. [yes I installed it correctly] I have to admit, their monster 160" antenna seems to get the job done, and for $100, it's a pretty good value.

Thanks for the link, rdn; that is helpful. I think there must be a slight obstruction or issue with my tuner that prevents this channel from locking. it hovers between 25-50% on the HDTV so i assume it's just below the threshold of acceptable gain / strength.

A little more data: I used a Rat Shack in-line amplifier and it only made the signal worse. [yes I installed it correctly] I have to admit, their monster 160" antenna seems to get the job done, and for $100, it's a pretty good value.

Yeah that amplifier only has 10 dB gain and a lousy noise figure. I tried it here and could tell no difference. I'm surprised there is that much difference between KING and KONG, although the frequencies aren't too close. Perhaps it is due to multipath reflections.

Thanks for the link, rdn; that is helpful. I think there must be a slight obstruction or issue with my tuner that prevents this channel from locking. it hovers between 25-50% on the HDTV so i assume it's just below the threshold of acceptable gain / strength.

A little more data: I used a Rat Shack in-line amplifier and it only made the signal worse. [yes I installed it correctly] I have to admit, their monster 160" antenna seems to get the job done, and for $100, it's a pretty good value.
The next step might be to try a Radio Shack attenuator--the variable one with f-type coax connectors on both sides (15-678). With that big antenna, its possible your signal and some multipath are too strong.

This is just one more inexpensive method to try before moving your big antenna around to different mounting locations.

First off, I think quarque is a great team player for providing line of sight and topographical information to other members here. I've got my installation sorted, but for some reason, I cannot get NBC-HD [48] from my location in Redmond. I'm in the redmond valley, but not on an East slope nor in any shadow of a large hill. I think i'm getting other signals from Queen Anne because KING-DT is the only channel I'm not getting. My 160" Rat Shack antenna is in the attic facing W-SW. I'm at the intersection of 161st AVE NE and NE 90th St. I'm waiting for my Fusion5 tuner, but the one in my HDTV seems to do pretty well. The analog NBC looks as good as the others, so the VHF reception is acceptable. The only think I can think of is that KING-DT is not broadcasting as powerfully as the other HDTV transmissions.

narcszm
You are just behind the hill. Your signal crosses 131st NE and about NE 80th at the high point. I did one about a block NE of you, condo, top floor, backs up to the main Redmond Woodinville road. It's not as easy as it looks. While you are getting signal, you really don't see how ugly it is and what your tuner has to deal with. The trees on the hilltop really chop up the signal. Having your antenna in the attic doesn't help, either. The only part of the antenna you're using for UHF HD is the small 30" long section on the front. The rest only gets the analog. How well analog looks only says your getting those lower freq's pretty good, and you have a CHANCE at HD.
You could really have several channels that are bad, but they are just good enough that your tuner will lock on. Once that happens, you'll never know the real truth. The "strength meter" only tells you signal to noise ratio, not real amount of signal, so you could be hanging on by your fingernails, see 100% "strength" and get a great picture. HD signal is either locked and perfect picture or nothing.

The main problem with KING is that it's radiating pattern looks like a figure 8, with it's strongest signal running North/South. Here's the info from the FCC site, and it's Polar Plot, or view from directly overhead the tower.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18954&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.915&p30=0.820&p40=0.709&p50=0.597&p60=0.501&p70=0.432&p80=0.393&p90=0.381&p100=0.393&p110=0.432&p120=0.501&p130=0.597&p140=0.709&p150=0.820&p160=0.915&p170=0.978&p180=1.000&p190=0.978&p200=0.915&p210=0.820&p220=0.709&p230=0.597&p240=0.501&p250=0.432&p260=0.393&p270=0.381&p280=0.393&p290=0.432&p300=0.501&p310=0.597&p320=0.709&p330=0.820&p340=0.915&p350=0.978&p360=1.000&

and the data


http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=34847


Note the analog KING pattern is 360 degrees, so it come in equally fine everywhere, under similar conditons. Also, the frequency is much higher, 674-680mhz, than KONG's 572-580mhz, and KONG has a Polar Plot pattern that orients to your direction, making it stronger.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=43056&rotate=20.00&p0=0.743&p10=0.868&p20=0.961&p30=1.000&p40=0.971&p50=0.910&p60=0.847&p70=0.795&p80=0.763&p90=0.761&p100=0.778&p110=0.781&p120=0.776&p130=0.761&p140=0.756&p150=0.795&p160=0.855&p170=0.919&p180=0.970&p190=1.000&p200=0.964&p210=0.881&p220=0.768&p230=0.638&p240=0.508&p250=0.399&p260=0.359&p270=0.381&p280=0.424&p290=0.441&p300=0.429&p310=0.389&p320=0.362&p330=0.391&p340=0.479&p350=0.605&p360=0.743&

Last, add in the filtering that can be done by obstructions, (trees, your attic, antenna properties, etc) and it's not uncommon to have one channel not come in.

The newer PC tuners can do some downright amazing things with weak and ugly signals. This is one that one of my customers (a Microsofty) has and it was astounding. My meter barely read and it locked in on everything.

http://www.vboxcomm.com/vbox/USB-A%203560.pdf

Not familiar with the Fusion card, but I have seen some beta testing cards that they were using on the Media project, and they did wonders.

It's very possible that if you just leave everything alone, and wait for your card, you might just get it all. Other wise, I used a 4221 mounted on the side of an eave and they all came in.
Dan

Dan - I have a friend that bought the 3560 receiver for $89 online and it is "wicked good" to quote his 'Boston-ish' feedback.

I live at 18111 36th Ave Lynnwood in an aparment.
I can't get an outdoor antenna like I would like, so what's a good one to use indoors?
In particular I'd like to get Q13's digital feed to catch the Hawks in HD :)

Hey Gents,
Been lurking for a while and have found some good info here.
thanks!

So I just moved and am looking for antenna suggestions. Right now I'm getting ok reception with my terk indoor jobby. but it's either KCTS or FOX not both without putting the antena on a tv tray and moving it around.. Other channels can drop out on occasion.. My Eye tv 500 pulls in most of the channels but the built in HP LCD tv tuner can't keep a solid lock on most.

Located at NW 62nd ST & 9th in ballard.

Most of the transmitters are within 5 miles with the exception of fox.
I would prefer something smallish mounted under my eve. Putting a mast up isn't out of the question but not ideal.

Suggestions?

Thanks again,
Blake

Hey all,

I keep trying to fine tune my antenna to get the best signal. On my D* HR10-250, I get a 71 signal on all of the QA stations. 4 and 5 are nailed at 71 and never change, but while KIRO 7 usually stays at 71, it bounces around often enough to make it annoying at best, unwatchable at worst. Do other people find that KIRO is the hardest to receive a good signal?

FWIW, I'm in Redmond (Novelty Hill area) and am using an attic mounted ratshack XV90 antenna with the 15-2507 preamp/amp. I only apply a bit of gain (for 60' RG6 loss) since I'm so close, but need the preamp due to lots of neighboring house roof reflection.

BoB

Quoting myself. :)

I just wanted to let people know that I set up a CM 4221 in the attic and combined it with the VHF from my XV90. I now get eveything I wanted at 90 or greater signal strength. I did need to turn up my amp, but the 4221 does a great job at rejecting multipathing. I'm one happy camper.

Thanks for all the advice over the past few months!

FWIW,
BoB

Homemade 4 bay from two 2 bays?

I'm just messing around with a couple of 2 bay (rat shack) and am wondering if would be better to stack them vertically or horizontally. If I stack vertically, I'll wind up with a typical 4 bay, but if I stack horizontally I'll have 1/2 of an 8 bay. From what I have seen, the 8 bay units are two 4 bays horizontally and in addition to the extra gain, have a narrower beamwidth. As I'm concerned with multipath, seems that putting them side by side would result in a narrow beamwidth of an 8 bay with the gain of a 4 bay. Any thoughts from the RF gods? I have a decent Yagi with a 7775 pre amp and pick everything I need except King (and Kong). I have a rotator to tune the aim especially since I'm in Silverdale and fox is pretty much 90 degrees from the rest.

Mark

I live at 18111 36th Ave Lynnwood in an aparment.
I can't get an outdoor antenna like I would like, so what's a good one to use indoors?
In particular I'd like to get Q13's digital feed to catch the Hawks in HD :)

caffeine high
You're in a good spot. Depends on where you are in the building. Ideal, south view, 2nd floor and above. Indoors is going to be spotty if you don't have that view. If you do, hang a 4221 on a pole from your balcony. Stick the pole in a big planter filled with small gravel, make sure the antenna sees over the railing. That way nothing is mounted to the building to get you in trouble, and you can take it with you when you leave. Point it south to southwest, should work great.
Dan

Dan - I have a friend that bought the 3560 receiver for $89 online and it is "wicked good" to quote his 'Boston-ish' feedback.

quarque
Was reading in the trade mags that the over air only receivers are not being made because the newer sets have built in tuners, and there's no market for them. Going to make all the old sat receivers with built in tuners a good thing to keep an eye out for!
Dan

Hey Gents,
Been lurking for a while and have found some good info here.
thanks!

So I just moved and am looking for antenna suggestions. Right now I'm getting ok reception with my terk indoor jobby. but it's either KCTS or FOX not both without putting the antena on a tv tray and moving it around.. Other channels can drop out on occasion.. My Eye tv 500 pulls in most of the channels but the built in HP LCD tv tuner can't keep a solid lock on most.

Located at NW 62nd ST & 9th in ballard.

Most of the transmitters are within 5 miles with the exception of fox.
I would prefer something smallish mounted under my eve. Putting a mast up isn't out of the question but not ideal.

Suggestions?

Thanks again,
Blake

Blake
From where you are, it's a bit tough to use the RatShack 15-2160 yagi,or other similar ones, as it's not really wide enough for all 3 directions. The 4221 is ideal, and what I use 90% of the time in Ballard. (The other 10% of the time you can find me at Zesto's!) You can mount it on the side of the house as long as it can see the QA hill and Magonlia directions.
Anything else is just to finnicky. Be sure to use a 20db adjustable attenuator from RatShack, set it for half way to start. You will get a lot of signal and might overload the tuner, making it act like it was not enough.
Dan

Quoting myself. :)

I just wanted to let people know that I set up a CM 4221 in the attic and combined it with the VHF from my XV90. I now get eveything I wanted at 90 or greater signal strength. I did need to turn up my amp, but the 4221 does a great job at rejecting multipathing. I'm one happy camper.

Thanks for all the advice over the past few months!

FWIW,
BoB

BoB
Well done.
Not exactly the cleanest lash-up, but if it works, who cares!
For the record, the 4221 does a lousy job at rejecting multipath. It's just the gain is a bit better, and the location you have for the two is in the sweet spot. DON'T MOVE THEM or make any changes up there, though!!!
Dan

Homemade 4 bay from two 2 bays?

I'm just messing around with a couple of 2 bay (rat shack) and am wondering if would be better to stack them vertically or horizontally. If I stack vertically, I'll wind up with a typical 4 bay, but if I stack horizontally I'll have 1/2 of an 8 bay. From what I have seen, the 8 bay units are two 4 bays horizontally and in addition to the extra gain, have a narrower beamwidth. As I'm concerned with multipath, seems that putting them side by side would result in a narrow beamwidth of an 8 bay with the gain of a 4 bay. Any thoughts from the RF gods? I have a decent Yagi with a 7775 pre amp and pick everything I need except King (and Kong). I have a rotator to tune the aim especially since I'm in Silverdale and fox is pretty much 90 degrees from the rest.

Mark

Mark
Stack them. Gain is what you need. Multipath is not your problem as much as multi-trees blocking signals. Try to keep connecting wires between the two the exact same length. If possible, make them look like a 4221. You want them to be as equal as possible in distance between each bow tie.
If KING is the only one you really want, you could couple them with the yagi using a ch48 jointenna, and the feed it into the 7775. It won't work for KONG though. Better to try the stacked ones by themselves through the 7775.
Dan

Is anyone else having problems with OTA reception for KCPQ 13? I'm down in Fife and recently began having intermittent problems where the signal strength momentarily drops to zero and causes the picture to freeze and breakup. Q13 signal strength registers 70-75. I've had a channelmaster 4248 antenna with 7775 preamp installed for over 3 years without any problems. No problems with any other local reception.

Steve

Dan,

My original plan was vertically stacked, and then I thought about stacking horizontally. Why do the 4 bay antenna wires twist for the end bows? Initially I connected the two 2 bays with some twin lead, but then looked at the 4221 (and DB-4) and saw the twist, so I started all over.

Mark

I have to turn off Sunday Night Football after 15 minutes because of the pixelization. I wonder if this is just comcast or OTA has the same issue?

Dan,

My original plan was vertically stacked, and then I thought about stacking horizontally. Why do the 4 bay antenna wires twist for the end bows? Initially I connected the two 2 bays with some twin lead, but then looked at the 4221 (and DB-4) and saw the twist, so I started all over.

Mark

The twist is to maintain phasing between the various sections. You want all elements to add to the signal in-phase. Difficult to explain in simple terms. A horizontal stack will give better results usually unless you are trying to pick up multiple locations without a rotor. Which RS model are you using?

Is anyone else having problems with OTA reception for KCPQ 13? I'm down in Fife and recently began having intermittent problems where the signal strength momentarily drops to zero and causes the picture to freeze and breakup. Q13 signal strength registers 70-75. I've had a channelmaster 4248 antenna with 7775 preamp installed for over 3 years without any problems. No problems with any other local reception.

Steve

If it is *only* ch 13 that is giving trouble then I would suspect a new reflection is the culprit (or tree growth). In that case try moving the antenna in 6" increments up,down,left,right. If there are other channels that have degraded as well then start looking at cable connections and the balun. Corrosion can really mess up your signal.

Quarque,

My yagi is the UHF portion of a rat shack VU-120. I couldn't sell the wife on the idea of a mondo antenna, but she agreed to the yagi section. As to the phasing, why do only the outer elements twist? It would seem the twist should be each element, like on a typical VHF, or even the silver sensor. A friend and I figure the 180 out of phase is catching the negative side of the wave. Per anatennaweb, the seattle towers are like 91 and 93, and fox (green mountain) is 184. I need a rotator for fox, but want a fairly narrow beam width for the seattle towers. As Dan K said, I need gain: but I fear multipath. Currently I pick up Komo at about 75, and Kiro at 84, and KSTW at 85, KMYQ (22) at about 75. If I rotate the yagi south about 10-15 I pick up KCTS about 75, and KBTC at 80. King and Kong just wont hold stable regardless of where I aim.

This is pretty much just a science fair project. At minimum wage I have spent far more than a 4221 or 4228's cost. It is just an opportunity to mess around with these darn RF beams. Things were so much easier when I lived in coastal Texas. No hills, no trees and 1000' high antennas;-) I could pick up Houston channels nearly 200 miles away in the evenings. That was with a Rat Shack VU-90 in the attic pointing away from the Houston channels.

Is anyone else having problems with OTA reception for KCPQ 13? I'm down in Fife and recently began having intermittent problems where the signal strength momentarily drops to zero and causes the picture to freeze and breakup. Q13 signal strength registers 70-75. I've had a channelmaster 4248 antenna with 7775 preamp installed for over 3 years without any problems. No problems with any other local reception.

Steve

Steve
What you're seeing is what's called avalanching. Digital decoders, or almost anything digital, recognize only two conditions, ON or OFF. When you have adequate signal level, anything above minimum is going to be ON, and your "meter" is going to say 70 or 75 or anything that looks good. When you get right on the edge of reception, the reading can still say the same 70, because it's telling you signal to noise ratio, NOT amount of actual signal. At the point where the decoder can longer hold on to the signal, it will start to pixelate and/or sound will stutter. One tiny amount less, and the signal is gone, reading drops to zero.
You could've been on the ragged edge for years, but wouldn't know it. As quarque mentioned, if the connections at the antenna or preamp aren't sealed well, even the smallest amounts of corrosion can cause just enough loss that it pushes the decoder over the reception edge, or avalanches.
Also seal the balun. Water can get into the balun through either end, and eventually rust it out. Yours could be on the verge of going. Baluns are cheap. Buy a new one, install it, seal everything, check coax ends to make sure they are still clean and not rusted, too.
If that doesn't fix it, then start to move the antenna around. The 4248 is very directional. From where you are, ch13 comes in on the side somewhat. If any trees in the path have grown up enough to slightly block it, then it's time to move it. Small amounts can make huge changes.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

BTW, ch13 shows the same level with my signal analyzer at my house in Federal Way.

Thanks for responding. All the connections looked good so I tried moving the antenna a few degrees to the east. Signal strength on 13 went from 72 to 84 with minimal impact to the other channels. No sign of any dropouts :).

Steve

Quarque,

My yagi is the UHF portion of a rat shack VU-120. I couldn't sell the wife on the idea of a mondo antenna, but she agreed to the yagi section. As to the phasing, why do only the outer elements twist? It would seem the twist should be each element, like on a typical VHF, or even the silver sensor. A friend and I figure the 180 out of phase is catching the negative side of the wave. Per anatennaweb, the seattle towers are like 91 and 93, and fox (green mountain) is 184. I need a rotator for fox, but want a fairly narrow beam width for the seattle towers. As Dan K said, I need gain: but I fear multipath. Currently I pick up Komo at about 75, and Kiro at 84, and KSTW at 85, KMYQ (22) at about 75. If I rotate the yagi south about 10-15 I pick up KCTS about 75, and KBTC at 80. King and Kong just wont hold stable regardless of where I aim.

This is pretty much just a science fair project. At minimum wage I have spent far more than a 4221 or 4228's cost. It is just an opportunity to mess around with these darn RF beams. Things were so much easier when I lived in coastal Texas. No hills, no trees and 1000' high antennas;-) I could pick up Houston channels nearly 200 miles away in the evenings. That was with a Rat Shack VU-90 in the attic pointing away from the Houston channels.

Antenna design is a real art and they obviously found that certain combinations of elements work best with a particular confguration. Often it is a compromise in order to maintain a somewhat flat gain curve over th entire band.

Besides a rotor there are other ways to skin that. You can try a simple combiner (splitter in reverse). Point one antenna at ch 13 and one at QA hill. I used one for quite some time for ch 13 and it worked very well. A more sophisticated method is the Jointenna (fancy combiner with filters for one particular channel). This combines two antennas so that they don't interfere with each other as much as a straight combiner.

Science projects are fun - who cares how much time and money is spent! I played around with the $4 bowties the RS sells (15-234). When you're close to the towers even a coathanger will work.

Quarque,

Agreed. If my homemade 4 bay picks up the Seattle broadcast stations without rotating, I'll probably throw in a combiner for 13 and ditch the rotator. I picked it up at a garage sale last summer for $4. Its a rat shack model but for what I paid including wire has filled the bill. A co worker friend of mine has gone totally old school. A large antenna for the Seattle broadcasts and a simple coax switch and silver sensor inside for fox. I have an SS and a switch around somewhere and perhaps when this project is done, I'll end up with that.

I figure my science fair project keeps me off the streets.

Hello,

I am located at the corner of Evergreen Loop and Evergreen way in southern Auburn. I am looking for any recommendations for an outdoor antenna for OTA HD only. Locally, Fry's has the CM-4248 and Lowes has the CM-3010. From lurking I think the 4221/3021 with it's wider reception angle may be the best bet but I can't find it locally. No problem ordering except I was hoping for instant gratification.

Thanks, Scot

Hello,

I am located at the corner of Evergreen Loop and Evergreen way in southern Auburn. I am looking for any recommendations for an outdoor antenna for OTA HD only. Locally, Fry's has the CM-4248 and Lowes has the CM-3010. From lurking I think the 4221/3021 with it's wider reception angle may be the best bet but I can't find it locally. No problem ordering except I was hoping for instant gratification.

Thanks, Scot

Scot
You're right, the 4221 would work well, if you're not too buried in the trees.
The 4248 would be better if you have some heavy clusters of trees to the NW.
Around Lake Tapps I found the 4248 to work better with the trees. The open areas of the newer sections around you test well with the 4221. The angle between ch13 and the rest is not the big. it can work.
Dan

Hello all,

Due to UPS beating the hell out of my first 4221, I have a second one on the way. Fingers crossed, I won't have to return the first one. The big problem was that the connection points were blunted such that I can't get the wingnuts on them. However, I could solder to them. That said, if I want to wire these two 4221s up like a 4228, would I wire them in phase or out of phase?

Thanks,
BoB

Dan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I mis-typed Fry's actually has the CM 4228. Does that change your recommedation at all?

Scot

Last weekend I purchased a CM 4228 from Frys (none on floor, they keep them in the back), first antenna I've tried since I bought my home in Puyallup/South Hill WA. The house is luckily a daylight basement and I have the antenna on a mast attached to the chimney up pretty high; the land my home is on is at 500' elevation. There are tons of tall Douglas Fir trees on my property including if I aim towards the Tacoma or Seattle stations with some small openings between some of them. The home is on 133rd Avenue East zip 98374

I'm currently able to get good signal strength on the new KSTW-DT (CW-HD Seattle) channel, KCTS-DT (PBS-HD Seattle), KOMO-HD (ABC-HD Seattle) and KONG-DT and some other extraneous channels such as 'i'.

Dan: do you think trying a CM 4248 in my situation of having so many big trees around could help with me possibly pulling in any or all of the following: KIRO-DT (CBS-HD Seattle), KING-DT (NBC-HD Seattle) and KCPQ-DT (FOX-HD)?

Antennaweb.org is showing KSTW-DT (CW-HD) as Tacoma but the compass reading looks like Seattle, is this station broadcast from Seattle? Also, the only FOX station (KCPQ-DT) around is in Tacoma, none in Seattle? I'm thinking since I'm able to pull in stations in Seattle that it's unlikely I'll be able to get any from Tacoma without an antenna rotator which I wouldn't mind installing but I use a Tivo and rarely watch live TV so I really don't want to get into rotating the antenna (unless my Tivo could be automated to do it - ha ha).

TitanTV showing Wheel and Jeopardy in HD on KOMO...is this relatively new? BTW, not in HD tonight.

Last weekend I purchased a CM 4228 from Frys (none on floor, they keep them in the back), first antenna I've tried since I bought my home in Puyallup/South Hill WA. The house is luckily a daylight basement and I have the antenna on a mast attached to the chimney up pretty high; the land my home is on is at 500' elevation. There are tons of tall Douglas Fir trees on my property including if I aim towards the Tacoma or Seattle stations with some small openings between some of them. The home is on 133rd Avenue East zip 98374

I'm currently able to get good signal strength on the new KSTW-DT (CW-HD Seattle) channel, KCTS-DT (PBS-HD Seattle), KOMO-HD (ABC-HD Seattle) and KONG-DT and some other extraneous channels such as 'i'.

Dan: do you think trying a CM 4248 in my situation of having so many big trees around could help with me possibly pulling in any or all of the following: KIRO-DT (CBS-HD Seattle), KING-DT (NBC-HD Seattle) and KCPQ-DT (FOX-HD)?

Antennaweb.org is showing KSTW-DT (CW-HD) as Tacoma but the compass reading looks like Seattle, is this station broadcast from Seattle? Also, the only FOX station (KCPQ-DT) around is in Tacoma, none in Seattle? I'm thinking since I'm able to pull in stations in Seattle that it's unlikely I'll be able to get any from Tacoma without an antenna rotator which I wouldn't mind installing but I use a Tivo and rarely watch live TV so I really don't want to get into rotating the antenna (unless my Tivo could be automated to do it - ha ha).

KSTW is on Capitol Hill in Seattle (same location as KCTS and KMYQ). KCPQ is actually on Gold Mountain, near Bremerton.

TitanTV showing Wheel and Jeopardy in HD on KOMO...is this relatively new? BTW, not in HD tonight.

This was brought up earlier. KOMO doesn't yet have the necessary equipment to convert 1080i (which is how Sony distributes these) to 720p (which they transmit).
The listings on my DirecTV receiver (from Zap2It, I think) also show HD, but it's really SD.

TitanTV showing Wheel and Jeopardy in HD on KOMO...is this relatively new? BTW, not in HD tonight.
Kelly from KOMO recently explained on one of these Seattle threads that they lack the equipment right now to convert the 1080i programs coming in to 720p for broadcast on KOMO-DT. I don't recall him giving any estimate of when this might be resolved.

Hello all,

Due to UPS beating the hell out of my first 4221, I have a second one on the way. Fingers crossed, I won't have to return the first one. The big problem was that the connection points were blunted such that I can't get the wingnuts on them. However, I could solder to them. That said, if I want to wire these two 4221s up like a 4228, would I wire them in phase or out of phase?

Thanks,
BoB

BoB
If you set the two side by side, connect the left post of each and the right post of each. It's hard to see in the factory picture, but that's how they're wired. In the middle, between them, is the actual connection point for the balun. besure to keep the connection wires or rods equal length.
http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg

That being said, I wouldn't bother. Having installed hundreds of 4221's, among other types, they work just as well if not better than a 4228. I know, all the specifications say the 4228 is better, but real world, in side by side testing, it's about the same in gain, and far less forgiving when you have several different directions to shoot for. The only place I used one was with the towers over 90 miles away, in flat desert country, no trees, where it had a little better gain. I still have one in my garage, gathering dust. I try it once in a while on a tough site, but it never does any better than the 4221 around here.
Won't hurt to try, of course, just don't be surprised at the results.
Dan

Last weekend I purchased a CM 4228 from Frys (none on floor, they keep them in the back), first antenna I've tried since I bought my home in Puyallup/South Hill WA. The house is luckily a daylight basement and I have the antenna on a mast attached to the chimney up pretty high; the land my home is on is at 500' elevation. There are tons of tall Douglas Fir trees on my property including if I aim towards the Tacoma or Seattle stations with some small openings between some of them. The home is on 133rd Avenue East zip 98374

I'm currently able to get good signal strength on the new KSTW-DT (CW-HD Seattle) channel, KCTS-DT (PBS-HD Seattle), KOMO-HD (ABC-HD Seattle) and KONG-DT and some other extraneous channels such as 'i'.

Dan: do you think trying a CM 4248 in my situation of having so many big trees around could help with me possibly pulling in any or all of the following: KIRO-DT (CBS-HD Seattle), KING-DT (NBC-HD Seattle) and KCPQ-DT (FOX-HD)?

Antennaweb.org is showing KSTW-DT (CW-HD) as Tacoma but the compass reading looks like Seattle, is this station broadcast from Seattle? Also, the only FOX station (KCPQ-DT) around is in Tacoma, none in Seattle? I'm thinking since I'm able to pull in stations in Seattle that it's unlikely I'll be able to get any from Tacoma without an antenna rotator which I wouldn't mind installing but I use a Tivo and rarely watch live TV so I really don't want to get into rotating the antenna (unless my Tivo could be automated to do it - ha ha).

WynsWrld98
Hard to say which would work better. Trees can really chop up a signal. If you had a clean shot north, it would probably work fine. Ch13 FOX is on Gold Mt near Bremerton. The rest are all North from you. Try moving it around on the roof to see if you can find a sweet spot through the trees. It only takes a 6 inches in any direction to make a huge difference. Also try lower. You would be amazed at how often I find reception better going under the tree canopy. Sometimes the 4248 works better. Only true way to know is try one. They DO have very different reception properties. You may need a preamp, as well. A 7775 is what I use out there, if needed, which is usually about 75% of the time.
Call if you have questions.
Dan
206-794-3993

Dan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I mis-typed Fry's actually has the CM 4228. Does that change your recommedation at all?

Scot

Scot
Yes. No trees, as I mentioned, use a 4221, heavy trees, 4248. The 4228 might work with no trees just fine, but ch13 might be fussy. Only way to tell is try it. You shouldn't need a preamp.
Dan

tschall - with the cut-off of 9-2, are the extra bits now bing used by 9-2 moved to the HD stream?

also, as a curiousity, does anyone actually watch the other simulcast stations?

as you indicated, with all of the multicasting bandwidth used by the SD sources, watching the past HD broadcasts was painful and I've avoided KCTS. Do you intend to stay at 720p or move back to 1080i? while the 720p signal does look better than the old 1080i signal (in scenes with movement), it doesn't have the pop that the 1080i signal did at times.

Hey Kelly, lunch anytime is good. Call me.

KCTS is operating the entire plant here at 1080i. The conversion to 720p takes place just ahead of our Harris flexicoders. This was done to make the coding more efficent for our HD service. KCTS >DOES NOT< switch between 1080i and 720p. This would make nightmares that I don't even want to think about. As many people have accuratly observed our 1080i efforts were less than stellar. The 720p looks much better. When you cram as much stuff into the pipe as we do you need all the help you can get.

As Kelly has pointed out, in a broadcast facility you can't just go whacking formats without considering the effect on the receive device, whatever it may be. Accordingly, KCTS makes one real-time conversion from 1080i to 720p just ahead of our redundant encoders and that is what is presented to our viewers.

FWIW KCTS encodes our H.D. (9-5) at 12.2 Mbps our S.D. simulcast at 3.75 Mbps, Kids (9-2) at 4.0 Mbps and Create (9-3) at 3.0 Mbps. The H.D. barker slide that runs on 9-5 when we are in 3 channel mode is at 2.0 Mbps.

Begining September 28 KCTS will discontinue the (9-2) Kids channel and begin full-time H.D. service with a mux containing 9-1, 9-3 and 9-5.

Since 9-2 and 9-5 weren't broadcast simultaneously (other than the low-bit-rate slide on 9-5) 9-2 didn't take any bandwidth from 9-5. I don't watch 9-3 much, but watch quite a bit of programming on 9-1 (except when they are simulcast on 9-5, of course).

Hopefully more of the PBS programming will be available in HD soon so 9-5 won't be mostly repeats (they don't need to bother with the Wayne Dyer, Suze Orman, etc., specials which are run during fundraising weekends, however).

A little off-topic, but does anyone know what the holdup is on KOMO being broadcast in HD on D*? Is it just the carriage fee alone? Ditto for KCPQ (although I really don't care about them because that's the only one I can get OTA). TIA.

tschall - with the cut-off of 9-2, are the extra bits now bing used by 9-2 moved to the HD stream?

also, as a curiousity, does anyone actually watch the other simulcast stations?

as you indicated, with all of the multicasting bandwidth used by the SD sources, watching the past HD broadcasts was painful and I've avoided KCTS. Do you intend to stay at 720p or move back to 1080i? while the 720p signal does look better than the old 1080i signal (in scenes with movement), it doesn't have the pop that the 1080i signal did at times.

Whenever I watch KCTS, it's almost always the HD (9-5) channel.

I have to respectfully disagree with going back to 1080i. Ever since they have changed to 720p, the picture has been crystal clear. And, more importantly, no pixelazation. Of the different channels broadcasting 720p or 1080i, I think that the channels broadcasting in 720p produce a consistently better picture, imho.

Whenever I watch KCTS, it's almost always the HD (9-5) channel.

I have to respectfully disagree with going back to 1080i. Ever since they have changed to 720p, the picture has been crystal clear. And, more importantly, no pixelazation. Of the different channels broadcasting 720p or 1080i, I think that the channels broadcasting in 720p produce a consistently better picture, imho.

I'm guessing that you have a display that is 720p native; no upconvert/downconvert to perform, maybe. The 1080i looked better on my 1080i display than the 720p signal does.

A little off-topic, but does anyone know what the holdup is on KOMO being broadcast in HD on D*? Is it just the carriage fee alone? Ditto for KCPQ (although I really don't care about them because that's the only one I can get OTA). TIA.

Nothing authoritative, but I saw a post about KOMO wanting a subchannel to be carried, as well (although they don't have any subchannels yet). There was also something about Tribune (owner of KCPQ) and DTV coming to an agreement on August 1, but that was two months ago so I would have expected it by now.

I hope both stations (and their advertisers) realize that by dragging their feet on this they have a bunch of unhappy viewers (I can't receive KCPQ OTA at all and KOMO breaks up pretty badly at times). I think the opening screen on KCPQ HD broadcasts which says "HD sponsored by DirecTV" is a real joke.

Nothing authoritative, but I saw a post about KOMO wanting a subchannel to be carried, as well (although they don't have any subchannels yet). There was also something about Tribune (owner of KCPQ) and DTV coming to an agreement on August 1, but that was two months ago so I would have expected it by now.

I hope both stations (and their advertisers) realize that by dragging their feet on this they have a bunch of unhappy viewers (I can't receive KCPQ OTA at all and KOMO breaks up pretty badly at times). I think the opening screen on KCPQ HD broadcasts which says "HD sponsored by DirecTV" is a real joke.


Thanks for the update. I just fired off emails to both stations asking that they come to an agreement--for what it's worth.

KOMO did have a subchannel for awhile during the 2004 election, probably three or four months of all news coverage. I'm not a big fan of sub channels, because it can hurt the quality of HD, but it was kind of nice. I for one, would love for channel 13 and channel 4 to share each others tower. I could finally get 13 without having to rent a box from Comcast.

Channels 13 and 22 (digital) did share towers for a while, but something (legal we heard, but no specifics) made them stop the simulcasts.

Ch 13 broadcasts analog and digital from Gold Mountain near Bremerton. Ch 22 broadcasts analog and digital from Capitol Hill in Seattle. Both stations are owned by Tribune Broadcasting.

A couple of years ago, 13.2 was carrying the Ch 22 digital signal, and 22.2 was carrying the Ch 13 digital signal. That put both stations on both towers, which was a big help to folks who could not get signals from one or the other. Even the DirecTV Advanced Program Guide had proper listings for the combinations.

Then they abruptly stopped the sharing. We never heard details on what caused them to stop, but it sounded like it was imposed rather than by choice.

Quarque and Dan,

My stacked bow tie met with mixed results. I tested the antenna in the living room with an adjustable 20 db amp and could at times pick up 5 and 9 so I tried it up on the roof. Outside, the signal was pretty much the same as the Yagi I had, but still no 5 or 9. I have in the past week or so picked up both 5 and 9 in the mornings, but lose the signal after then. I'm back to the yagi for the time being. With the channels I get, a 10 db attenuator makes no difference, but I am beginning to wonder if my 7775 is too much pre amp. My next step will be to the Rat Shack for the adjustable attenuator. Right now, the antenna is on the gable end farthest away from the trees, but that also puts it across the roof. One article suggested putting it on the side closest to the towers to avoid house generated EMI. But I would think with the trees being about 35 feet from that end of the roof would offset the house EMI.

Unless I get some warm, dry weather next weekend I may shelve the project for the winter. I guess I can always salt the earth to kill all the trees between here and Seattle; but I think the wife would send me packing;-)

Thanks.

Channels 13 and 22 (digital) did share towers for a while, but something (legal we heard, but no specifics) made them stop the simulcasts.

Ch 13 broadcasts analog and digital from Gold Mountain near Bremerton. Ch 22 broadcasts analog and digital from Capitol Hill in Seattle. Both stations are owned by Tribune Broadcasting.

A couple of years ago, 13.2 was carrying the Ch 22 digital signal, and 22.2 was carrying the Ch 13 digital signal. That put both stations on both towers, which was a big help to folks who could not get signals from one or the other. Even the DirecTV Advanced Program Guide had proper listings for the combinations.

Then they abruptly stopped the sharing. We never heard details on what caused them to stop, but it sounded like it was imposed rather than by choice.

Budget_HT
When they stopped simulcasting, I had a lot of unhappy people. What made the arrangement work was having two places to shoot for. AND, at that time, they were both only transmitting 480p. There's not enough bandwidth to do both in 720p or 1080i. When they stopped, neither was doing higher resolutions. The engineer there told me it was because their lawyers said that they could run into agreement problems with various programs about transmitting on two different frequencies and stations. Kind of like paying for a show once, but using it twice. No one had come down on them, yet, so they though it wise to stop. And, they knew that the higher resolutions would be on line, soon, so they couldn't keep doing it after that.
Dan

Quarque and Dan,

My stacked bow tie met with mixed results. I tested the antenna in the living room with an adjustable 20 db amp and could at times pick up 5 and 9 so I tried it up on the roof. Outside, the signal was pretty much the same as the Yagi I had, but still no 5 or 9. I have in the past week or so picked up both 5 and 9 in the mornings, but lose the signal after then. I'm back to the yagi for the time being. With the channels I get, a 10 db attenuator makes no difference, but I am beginning to wonder if my 7775 is too much pre amp. My next step will be to the Rat Shack for the adjustable attenuator. Right now, the antenna is on the gable end farthest away from the trees, but that also puts it across the roof. One article suggested putting it on the side closest to the towers to avoid house generated EMI. But I would think with the trees being about 35 feet from that end of the roof would offset the house EMI.

Unless I get some warm, dry weather next weekend I may shelve the project for the winter. I guess I can always salt the earth to kill all the trees between here and Seattle; but I think the wife would send me packing;-)

Thanks.

miner
EMI is not usually a problem at frequencies above ch7 (170mhz), and specially in the UHF bands above 470mhz. Trees will give you far more problems. Be sure to use the attenuators after the power supply output of the 7775, and not between it and the preamp.
Dan

Dan,

It would appear Radio Shack has discontinued their variable attenuator. Do you have any thoughts who else sells one?

Mark

Dan,

It would appear Radio Shack has discontinued their variable attenuator. Do you have any thoughts who else sells one?

Mark

Mark
Geeze! Just bought one for a job a few weeks ago.....
Oh well.... Looked on Stark's site, didn't see one, but then you might want to just call them
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
Maybe Fry's? I'll check with my wholesaler, too.
Get back to you.
Dan

Any bets that Radio Shack comes back with a newer one, a little more fancy and a lot higher price, in tune with "HDTV value" of this little device?

any word on when kiro will broadcast news in hd....

any word on when kiro will broadcast news in hd....

Gdeep-

According to some friends of mine who work there, not anytime soon. Sorry.

Gdeep-

According to some friends of mine who work there, not anytime soon. Sorry.

I like it better that way than KING's continuous switching between 16:9 and 4:3. The only HD is the single studio camera. KOMO has a lot more 16:9 on their news, although much of it looks more like SD than HD (which still looks pretty good and you don't get the pillar bars coming and going so often, which I find distracting).

Hello everyone, I was hoping to get some help from you. I have Comcast and noticed the center audio (voices) dropping but can still hear the background sounds on a few shows lately. Boston Legal, Cold Case, Without a Trace, so far only ABC and CBS HD channels. Have you heard the same problem? Wondering if it's a broadcaster issue or if I need to contact the cable company.

Thanks for your help!

I managed to track down the part number for the radio shack attenuator, plugged it into their website and it shows up as an active part, but not in stock at any of the stores in the Kitsap County area. The RS in Westminister CA has them in stock.
The part number is 15-678, and maybe the local stores still stock it. Doing a search online by name, antenna access etc it did not show up. Only when search by p/n does it show up. The rat shack search engine is pretty darn bad, can't even find their own stuff.

Miner

The simple answer here is that 720p is probably here to stay. The extra bandwidth that 9-2 occupied always was dedicated to HD when 9-2 was removed, regardless of wether or not HD was 1080i or 720p.

9-1 was originally a requirment. There is no longer a requirement to simulcast anything but so many of the outlying cable companies take it for use on their systems that I'm sure it will stay as well. 9-3 is a contractual obligation. I don't know how many people watch either of those streams.

I will be experimenting with several new 'cross convertors' over the coming weeks to do the 1080i to 720p conversion. The one I'm using right now is a desk top brick looking thing that, while pretty good, isn't really suited to the job. It doesn't pass captioned material correctly, nor will it pass embedded 5.1 audio if we ever decide to go that route.

I'll keep the forum up to date.

Tim Schall
KCTS TV

tschall - with the cut-off of 9-2, are the extra bits now bing used by 9-2 moved to the HD stream?

also, as a curiousity, does anyone actually watch the other simulcast stations?

as you indicated, with all of the multicasting bandwidth used by the SD sources, watching the past HD broadcasts was painful and I've avoided KCTS. Do you intend to stay at 720p or move back to 1080i? while the 720p signal does look better than the old 1080i signal (in scenes with movement), it doesn't have the pop that the 1080i signal did at times.

Dan,

It would appear Radio Shack has discontinued their variable attenuator. Do you have any thoughts who else sells one?

Mark

Antennas Direct carries them:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html
20dB variable attenuator... $13

I have a friend using one for his QAM reception. It helped a ton but the 20dB isn't even enough for some of the channels. Would adding another 10dB fixed attenuator in line help? The "Comcast technician" told him the node was literally right outside his house so I assume the signal is pretty hot there. I think it is his Samsung tuner that can't deal with the strong signals and gets confused.

McFly9000,

Thanks for pointing out Antennas Direct. I thought I checked them but obviously not.

I have a -10dB in line myself that I got when I lived in south Texas. The signal to my cable modem was like your friends. It cooked my modem and the cable company gave it to me to help trim the signal. My replacement modem was happy with it installed.

It sounds like the cable co should adjust their signal. Of course, turning down the gain for your friend and the folks at the end of the node will never get signal.

Antennas Direct carries them:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html
20dB variable attenuator... $13

I have a friend using one for his QAM reception. It helped a ton but the 20dB isn't even enough for some of the channels. Would adding another 10dB fixed attenuator in line help? The "Comcast technician" told him the node was literally right outside his house so I assume the signal is pretty hot there. I think it is his Samsung tuner that can't deal with the strong signals and gets confused.

McFly9000
Thanks for finding that. Got busy and forgot.
Most receivers aren't happy with signals over +20db. You can always add another attenuator to that one if needed.
Cable guys usually use taps that only give the customer between 0db and +10db at their set. Whether the node is close or far on the trunk, the design should give the same levels. They do increase it sometimes, when there are lots of TV's and no easy place to mount an outdoor amp at the house. People leave, take the splitters, and the next guy hooks up one cable and gets overdriven.
What can also give problems is when the trunk taps get flaky and pass along small amounts of trunk power to the drop, and the ground block or rod is not working outside the house. That adds a lot of noise the tuner just can't deal with, at any level. A simple cure is a DC block or isolator, or both as needed.
Dan

The simple answer here is that 720p is probably here to stay. The extra bandwidth that 9-2 occupied always was dedicated to HD when 9-2 was removed, regardless of wether or not HD was 1080i or 720p.

9-1 was originally a requirment. There is no longer a requirement to simulcast anything but so many of the outlying cable companies take it for use on their systems that I'm sure it will stay as well. 9-3 is a contractual obligation. I don't know how many people watch either of those streams.

I will be experimenting with several new 'cross convertors' over the coming weeks to do the 1080i to 720p conversion. The one I'm using right now is a desk top brick looking thing that, while pretty good, isn't really suited to the job. It doesn't pass captioned material correctly, nor will it pass embedded 5.1 audio if we ever decide to go that route.

I'll keep the forum up to date.

Tim Schall
KCTS TV

Tim
Thanks!
You make my job easier, and our customers happier.
Looking forward to the solution for those problems. And don't think the 9-1 channel is not watched that much. As soon as I set up a system, and they see the variety and picture quality compared to analog, they want all the sub channels programmed, and no analog!
The hearing challenged folks are not the only ones using the captioning. I always set the captioning button up on programmable remotes, and receivers that caption on mute. People appreciate it even more once they realize the convenience it affords.
Keep up the good work and programming!
Dan

Tim
Thanks!
You make my job easier, and our customers happier.
Looking forward to the solution for those problems. And don't think the 9-1 channel is not watched that much. As soon as I set up a system, and they see the variety and picture quality compared to analog, they want all the sub channels programmed, and no analog!
The hearing challenged folks are not the only ones using the captioning. I always set the captioning button up on programmable remotes, and receivers that caption on mute. People appreciate it even more once they realize the convenience it affords.
Keep up the good work and programming!
Dan

I agree. The picture quality on 9.1 is better than I get from DirecTV's SD broadcast.

Rat Shack Attenuator Update.

I was on the RS website and put in some zip codes from my previous residences and a couple of them had the attenuator in stock. From that, I went to my local RS and the local store will order the unit from the store that has it in stock. I should have it early next week. An RS in Las Vegas, one in Panama City FL and one in Utah still have them in stock. Who knows if RS will replace it with a new "HD" model or it will truely become a dinosaur.

Miner

Hi,
I am hoping to get some help on the current setup that we have in our Beacon Hill, Seattle home. We have a 32in. Envision LCD with onboard tuner. We bought a Jensen TV 631 antenna. Although we can see nearly 8-10 stations clearly, they will freeze up and then go back to normal 5-10 seconds later. My husband and I are trying to figure out if we should get an outdoor antenna for the roof or if we are receiving too much signal. According to some of the maps we've seen area of Beacon Hill should get signals from all directions. (my home is located near 15th AveS and Spokane)

Any insight or help would be much much appreciated!
Thanks

Hi,
I am hoping to get some help on the current setup that we have in our Beacon Hill, Seattle home. We have a 32in. Envision LCD with onboard tuner. We bought a Jensen TV 631 antenna. Although we can see nearly 8-10 stations clearly, they will freeze up and then go back to normal 5-10 seconds later. My husband and I are trying to figure out if we should get an outdoor antenna for the roof or if we are receiving too much signal. According to some of the maps we've seen area of Beacon Hill should get signals from all directions. (my home is located near 15th AveS and Spokane)

Any insight or help would be much much appreciated!
Thanks

agifford
The antenna is amplified. NOT what you want. Try unplugging the power supply for the antenna. It might just give you some extra attenuation you need. If it still acts up, try a RatShack simple indoor like these
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=&origkw=antenna+indoor&kw=antenna+indoor&parentPage=search
Be sure to get a 300 to 75 ohm adapter for it, and a short piece of cable to connect it to the TV.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062054&cp=&origkw=75+ohm+adapter&kw=75+ohm+adapter&parentPage=search

or this antenna

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077&cp=2032057&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032057&categoryId=2032057&kwCatId=2032057&kw=antenna+indoor&parentPage=search

You will have to move the antenna around for some stations, even though their towers are together, because the signals bounce around indoors. Don't worry about the long antenna rods on the second one. Leave them collapsed. It's the round loop antenna that's doing the work. Try to get the antenna near the window to get a cleaner signal.
If they don't work, you can return them. Let us know what happens.
Dan

Great! Thanks so much for the information. I am able to get NBC with no freezing and the NBC weather. The baseball games on FOX are causing a problem for me as well as some of the other stations. I'm going to try one of the antennas that you have suggested and follow up with you. Thanks again!

************************************************************ ***
The antenna is amplified. NOT what you want. Try unplugging the power supply for the antenna. It might just give you some extra attenuation you need. If it still acts up, try a RatShack simple indoor like these

You will have to move the antenna around for some stations, even though their towers are together, because the signals bounce around indoors. Don't worry about the long antenna rods on the second one. Leave them collapsed. It's the round loop antenna that's doing the work. Try to get the antenna near the window to get a cleaner signal.
If they don't work, you can return them. Let us know what happens.
Dan[/QUOTE]

I live in the Puyallup/South Hill area. I'm looking for a recommendation of a Company to buy and install a HDTV OTA antenna. Any recommendations? Thanks

I live in the Puyallup/South Hill area. I'm looking for a recommendation of a Company to buy and install a HDTV OTA antenna. Any recommendations? Thanks
I would recommend Dan Kurts, who is a regular participant in this forum.

Dan has the knowledge and equipment to determine the optimum antenna for your location, including trying more than one model if necessary.

You can call him at 206-794-3993 (he posts that number here on the forum from time to time).

Thanks for the update. I just fired off emails to both stations asking that they come to an agreement--for what it's worth.


Finally got replies from both stations. KOMO says only that it'll be very soon. KCPQ's hangup is about sub-channel carriage; evidently, no sub-channel carriage--no agreement. Funny, but I see NO subchannels being carried by my local cableco. Oh well, I guess it'll happen when it happens & I'll have to keep my cable for a while longer.

It isn't KCPQ, but Tribune, that is insisting Dish &, I assume Direct, to carry KMYQ, My Network (former WB 22), in HD or no carriage agreement.

I don't believe that any of Tribune's stations anywhere are yet carried in HD by DirecTV. If KCPQ were transmitting from Queen Anne or Capitol Hill at least I would have a chance at OTA. I suspect it will happen after the baseball season (and most of the NFL) is over.

Finally got replies from both stations. KOMO says only that it'll be very soon. KCPQ's hangup is about sub-channel carriage; evidently, no sub-channel carriage--no agreement. Funny, but I see NO subchannels being carried by my local cableco. Oh well, I guess it'll happen when it happens & I'll have to keep my cable for a while longer.


Baldone01
Actually, Comcast carries most of the sub channels of ch's 5, 7, 9, and 16, and more. If you have a QAM tuner, you'll see them as 82-1, 82-3, 84-1, 84-13 and other wierd channel numbers.
They don't all come in on the cable box, but if you split the cable and run one in to the TV's QAM tuner, they will show up, and usually look better than using the cable box's output. The other local cable company, name escapes me, but they serve downtown Seattle and Duvall areas, among others, do not have these sub channels. Been a while since I checked, though.
It will probably be quite a while before the satellites have sub channels. Bandwidth and cost issues.
Dan

Baldone01
The other local cable company, name escapes me, but they serve downtown Seattle and Duvall areas, among others, do not have these sub channels. Been a while since I checked, though.
Dan

Millenium?

Millenium?

Yup!

Baldone01
Actually, Comcast carries most of the sub channels of ch's 5, 7, 9, and 16, and more. If you have a QAM tuner, you'll see them as 82-1, 82-3, 84-1, 84-13 and other wierd channel numbers.
They don't all come in on the cable box, but if you split the cable and run one in to the TV's QAM tuner, they will show up, and usually look better than using the cable box's output. The other local cable company, name escapes me, but they serve downtown Seattle and Duvall areas, among others, do not have these sub channels. Been a while since I checked, though.
It will probably be quite a while before the satellites have sub channels. Bandwidth and cost issues.
Dan

Unfortunately, I have Wavebroadband & not Comcast or Millenium. I have the same stb that Comcast uses, but not even the firewire port is enabled. Sadly, I don't presently have a TV w/QAM tuner. Thanks for the info though, Dan.

I've got a HR10-250 (DirecTV's Tivo-based HD DVR), and it's been having some weirdness with 7-1/KIRO lately. Not the normal pixellation, but there are these times when the screen flashes/blanks out for a second. If I had to describe it it's like the signal was cut or interrupted. Only happens a couple of times/hour (at most). A sort of horizontal band will appear across the screen, only lasts a couple of seconds or so.

It doesn't happen on recordings of any other channel, HD or SD, OTA or Satellite, so I don't think it's a HR10 problem. And it happens on more than one show (CSI, Numbers) and it's only been happening for the last 2 or 3 weeks.

Anyone? Ideas?

been having some weirdness with 7-1/KIRO lately. Not the normal pixellation, but there are these times when the screen flashes/blanks out for a second. If I had to describe it it's like the signal was cut or interrupted. Only happens a couple of times/hour (at most). A sort of horizontal band will appear across the screen, only lasts a couple of seconds or so.


same here, was watching numb3rs on friday night and had the same problem.
fyi- direct ota tv tuner not dvr.

same here, was watching numb3rs on friday night and had the same problem.
fyi- direct ota tv tuner not dvr.

saywhat & jcricket
I know this sounds ultra redundant, but I've had customers with similar wierd problems on the new Hughes boxes, and a cold boot (unplug it from the wall, after you shut it down-Standby-through the menu) fixes a lot of strange things. It doesn't make much sense, because everything else is okay, but they sometimes have problems with a channel's info/location in memory, and it will clear up. A rescan, by going through the setup again, can sometimes clear it it up, too. The other thing is to check the "strength" of the signal. When you go there, it will already be on the right channel. Watch it for a few minutes. If it's bouncing around a few points, that's okay. If it suddenly drops a bunch, like 30 points or more, and then comes right back, then there are other things going on. Antenna may need a slight tweak, or a connection may be a little loose or corroded, etc.
Give it a good check.
Dan

I've got a HR10-250 (DirecTV's Tivo-based HD DVR), and it's been having some weirdness with 7-1/KIRO lately. Not the normal pixellation, but there are these times when the screen flashes/blanks out for a second. If I had to describe it it's like the signal was cut or interrupted. Only happens a couple of times/hour (at most). A sort of horizontal band will appear across the screen, only lasts a couple of seconds or so.

It doesn't happen on recordings of any other channel, HD or SD, OTA or Satellite, so I don't think it's a HR10 problem. And it happens on more than one show (CSI, Numbers) and it's only been happening for the last 2 or 3 weeks.

Anyone? Ideas?

I've seen the same thing over the last few weeks. Only on channel 7. I've seen it on 2 different Dish Network HD DVRs that I have and it's been in the same spot on both. I have an OTA signal in the high 90's on both DVRs. I'm guessing it's a source issue here. Question would be it a KIRO thing or a CBS thing.

I've seen the same thing over the last few weeks. Only on channel 7. I've seen it on 2 different Dish Network HD DVRs that I have and it's been in the same spot on both. I have an OTA signal in the high 90's on both DVRs. I'm guessing it's a source issue here. Question would be it a KIRO thing or a CBS thing.

On the DirecTV technical support forum folks in other areas are expressing similar complaints, so it is probably a network issue. Does KIRO even do any local HD? I recall that the Seafair hydro broadcast was in 16:9, but it looked like upconverted SD.

On the DirecTV technical support forum folks in other areas are expressing similar complaints, so it is probably a network issue. Does KIRO even do any local HD? I recall that the Seafair hydro broadcast was in 16:9, but it looked like upconverted SD.


By KIRO problem vs CBS problem, I meant is it that way coming this way from CBS or is it a problem with the HD transmission gear that is sending out the signal to us (i.e. a problem with KIRO equipment). I don't think they produce and broadcast any of their own HD content, at least none that I've seen.

By KIRO problem vs CBS problem, I meant is it that way coming this way from CBS or is it a problem with the HD transmission gear that is sending out the signal to us (i.e. a problem with KIRO equipment). I don't think they produce and broadcast any of their own HD content, at least none that I've seen.
Glad (?) to see it's not just me or my equipment. It was seriously glitchy on the Steelers game this Sunday.

Dan, while I appreciate the suggestion, it's obviously not possible that everyone's antennas are messed up in a way that CBS, and only CBS, messes up in the same way on three different hardware platforms.

Is anyone here from KIRO? Or does anyone have a contact they can forward these issues to? KIRO's been reliable for me for more than a year until these recent issues. And the signal stays in the 80s throughout the entire event. It's not pixelation or signal break-up, or audio drop-outs/freezing in the fashion that I get periodically on marginal channels.

It's momentary glitches in the signal, resulting in a pop/break in the video and audio feed, usually accompanied by a very short audio loss and then it's right back on (no more than a second or two at a time).

Glad (?) to see it's not just me or my equipment. It was seriously glitchy on the Steelers game this Sunday.

Dan, while I appreciate the suggestion, it's obviously not possible that everyone's antennas are messed up in a way that CBS, and only CBS, messes up in the same way on three different hardware platforms.

Is anyone here from KIRO? Or does anyone have a contact they can forward these issues to? KIRO's been reliable for me for more than a year until these recent issues. And the signal stays in the 80s throughout the entire event. It's not pixelation or signal break-up, or audio drop-outs/freezing in the fashion that I get periodically on marginal channels.

It's momentary glitches in the signal, resulting in a pop/break in the video and audio feed, usually accompanied by a very short audio loss and then it's right back on (no more than a second or two at a time).
I am seeing the same problem from KIRO-DT on both of my HD TiVo units.

Some time ago, there were posts from a member KIRO Engineer (not sure of spelling, and the search engine is down right now so I cannot look for his prior posts). Since he has been inactive, even a PM may not be read or answered.

I just sent the following email to the programming folks at KIRO, since their web site does not offer an email path to their engineers:

Please forward this message to the broadcast engineer(s). I have been watching KIRO-DT channel 7.1 since late 1999 or early 2000. I believe CBS has some of the best HDTV programs in prime time, and KIRO-DT has provided near-flawless transmissions to us nearly all of the time.

Recently (last few weeks) I have been seeing and hearing very short interruptions on KIRO-DT broadcasts of CBS network HD programming. I get the same interruptions in exactly the same place on both of my HD TiVo units (receiving OTA). Other members of the AVSForum Seattle reception threads are reporting the same problem. None of us are seeing the same problem on the other local channels. We have also seen similar reports from viewers in other areas of the country for their local CBS affiliates.

This message is intended to inform you of our observations in case you have not otherwise heard of this problem. I, and other AVS Forum members, would be happy to assist with further information or in any other way we can.

Thank you for your continued support of the HDTV viewers in Seattle.

Hopefully I will get an email response or telephone call from them.

I just figured out the member name is KIRO Engineering. I just sent a PM with the same message (above) to KIRO Engineering.

Glad (?) to see it's not just me or my equipment. It was seriously glitchy on the Steelers game this Sunday.

Dan, while I appreciate the suggestion, it's obviously not possible that everyone's antennas are messed up in a way that CBS, and only CBS, messes up in the same way on three different hardware platforms.

Is anyone here from KIRO? Or does anyone have a contact they can forward these issues to? KIRO's been reliable for me for more than a year until these recent issues. And the signal stays in the 80s throughout the entire event. It's not pixelation or signal break-up, or audio drop-outs/freezing in the fashion that I get periodically on marginal channels.

It's momentary glitches in the signal, resulting in a pop/break in the video and audio feed, usually accompanied by a very short audio loss and then it's right back on (no more than a second or two at a time).

jcricket
I agree, it may very well be some glitch at their end. I watch KIRO news usually every day, and have not seen any problems, but I have a regular HD tuner, not a DVR. Obviously something that trips up the recording process. Kind of like the old Macrovision on VHS tapes that would prevent you from making a tape from an original studio tape. The signal would not affect normal viewing. Only when it was broken down in the recording process to be put on tape, then viewed on the new tape, would the picture start to act up. I would bet something similar is tripping up the DVR's. Curious to know if anyone out there see's this on a regular non-HD DVR.
Dan

same here, was watching numb3rs on friday night and had the same problem.
fyi- direct ota tv tuner not dvr.

i reported it couple days back, i use vizio gv42l lcd hdtv - no dvr and have been having issues for about a week the most recent one was while watching numb3rs last friday night (10/20)

FYI, I received a response from KIRO asking for more information.

I am going to point them to this thread at a post where this issue was first brought up.

Please keep reporting what you see on KIRO CBS HDTV broadcasts, including what program and what equipment you were using to receive their KIRO-DT HDTV channel.

I haven't noticed any issues when viewing straight from the component outs of my Hughes E86.

However, within the last two weeks I started noticing that I was no longer able to view HD programming in full resolution on my notebook PC via firewire from my Comcast 3412 DVR. Looking into it I discovered that KIRO-DT was one of the few channels where the embedded CCI (Copy Control Information) was set at "2" (0x02 - copy once) full time.

I sent my complaint to KIRO and got a response back from Pat Otis who said they would look into it since they had recently put up a new encoder. I'm suspicious that the encoder is improperly embedding the CCI=0x02 value into the Mpeg stream which will pose problems over IEEE-1394 and may cause trouble with PC-based decoders as well.

If anyone has other contacts at KIRO engineering could you please share that information with me?

BTW, I recently found a similar issue with KCPQ-DT (FOX) during MLB Baseball and Seahawks games but not during other programming. I wonder if it's related.

Tim

Tim,

Pat Otis is the KIRO person who responded to my email also.

FYI, I received a response from KIRO asking for more information.

I am going to point them to this thread at a post where this issue was first brought up.

Please keep reporting what you see on KIRO CBS HDTV broadcasts, including what program and what equipment you were using to receive their KIRO-DT HDTV channel.

Budget_HT
Good idea.
And let them know the time. Might also help to know if it was during a commercial or the program.
Dan

This may, or may not be related to the same KIRO issue, but... I almost always watch my OTA HD via my HTPC, and have not had any problems with either KIRO or other channels. But, tonight around 8:15, since I was using my HTPC to record a show on KING and I wanted to watch Jericho, I switched my setup so I could watch KIRO via the internal HD tuner I have in my Pioneer Plasma 5050SX. The Pioneer was picking up all of the HD Channels, except 7.1 and 7.2. All it would display is a black screen. No video or audio.

Once I was done recording the show on KING at 8:30, I tried the HD Tuner in my HTPC and had no problems receiving 7.1. I then went back to the Pioneer tuner, and it was still black.

Sounds like bad stream info on KIRO's part. Some decoders can handle it, some can't.

No problems for me OTA or satellite HD with a Dish 622.

Sounds like bad stream info on KIRO's part. Some decoders can handle it, some can't.

No problems for me OTA or satellite HD with a Dish 622.

FWIW, I too have a 622 and I have seen very minor hiccups on 007-01. The only show I watch on channel 7 is The Unit but for the last few weeks I have seen a number of instances were the video goes black and you get a quick pop on the audio, usually only lasting a split second. However, once, I think 2 weeks ago, there was a a period of about maybe 5 minutes where there was nothing, no audio, no video. Audio returned first, followed by Video.

This showed up on the HD recording I did on a Dish 622 and a Dish 942.

I'll try re-scanning my channels on the Pioneer tonight, to see if that changes anything.

FYI... I just re-scanned the channels on my Pioneer 5050SX at 6:30PM, and KIRO is showing just fine again.

Hi guys,

I don't have much hope for this location, but I'm just wondering if someone can do me a check on my reception:

187th AVE NE and 155th AVE (off Avondale) in Woodinville

Lots of trees, and hills, and...comcast that costs too much.

Thanks much.

Hi guys,

I don't have much hope for this location, but I'm just wondering if someone can do me a check on my reception:

187th AVE NE and 155th AVE (off Avondale) in Woodinville

Lots of trees, and hills, and...comcast that costs too much.

Thanks much.

Bad news. You have a huge hill to the SW that is completely blocking your path to Seattle towers as well as Bremerton (CH 13). You will have to go cable or dish.

FYI, I received a response from KIRO asking for more information.

I am going to point them to this thread at a post where this issue was first brought up.

Please keep reporting what you see on KIRO CBS HDTV broadcasts, including what program and what equipment you were using to receive their KIRO-DT HDTV channel.

I have noticed these "dropouts" on KIRO through my Comcast 6200 cable box. I don't watch much KIRO live except for CFB games. But I do see these events on my Tivo-recorded Letterman shows coming off the 6200. If I single step through one I see a blank frame or two followed by a partial frame or two that are out of sync (frame split in the middle of the screen). Then it goes back to normal. I have not noticed them nearly as much on CFB broadcasts.

CFB = college football?

Bad news. You have a huge hill to the SW that is completely blocking your path to Seattle towers as well as Bremerton (CH 13). You will have to go cable or dish.

No problem, thanks for checking though.

I recently set up a HTPC using a Vbox Cat Eye 150. The overall tuner reception is a little bit weaker compared to my tv (Sony A10), which basically receives all local stations. The one strange thing is the reception of Kiro. The Vbox basically does not receive Kiro, even though I have no problem receiving Kiro on the tv at all (Kiro's signal is one of the strongest...). The Vbox signal strength application shows good signal strength for Kiro, but the tuner doesn't tune into that channel. This doesn't look like a signal strength issue to me, but rather something else.

Are there any vbox owners out there, and do you receive Kiro?

CFB = college football?
correctamundo!

and don't ask what correctamundo means :D

Re: KIRO-DT dropouts

I have been catching up today on my HD TiVo recordings, and I have been seeing the interruptions on KIRO-DT CBS programs repeatedly. Rewind repeats the problem in exactly the same place. Frame-at-a-time viewing shows normal frames, then two black frames in a row, and then one frame out of vertical sync (like a frozen, split "vertical roll" picture) and then back to normal. Watched at normal speed, I suspect the TiVo repeats the last good frame for the two black ones, then hicups on the one out-of-sync frame, then returns to normal.

I never used to see this problem on KIRO-DT. This is only a few weeks old, although I can't say exactly when it started.

I recently set up a HTPC using a Vbox Cat Eye 150. The overall tuner reception is a little bit weaker compared to my tv (Sony A10), which basically receives all local stations. The one strange thing is the reception of Kiro. The Vbox basically does not receive Kiro, even though I have no problem receiving Kiro on the tv at all (Kiro's signal is one of the strongest...). The Vbox signal strength application shows good signal strength for Kiro, but the tuner doesn't tune into that channel. This doesn't look like a signal strength issue to me, but rather something else.

Are there any vbox owners out there, and do you receive Kiro?


Try re-scanning your channels with the V-Box. I had to do that with my Pioneer TV, and that brought back KIRO (see earlier posts).

The posters describing the split/vertical-roll picture are in-line with what I'm experiencing. And it's only on KIRO, not KOMO, KING, KCPQ, etc. I noticed it again on Numbers and a couple of times during Two and a Half Men (did I just admit I watch that show?). Split second black screen + glitch + the occasional audio pop, but then right back to normal show.

This problem was definitely not there last year (watched Numbers and CSI all year without these issues) or over the summer. I can't pin-point the exact date it started, but definitely August or September.

It's different than Tivo-caused audio dropouts, pixelation that causes audio-drop outs or picture breakup.

The posters describing the split/vertical-roll picture are in-line with what I'm experiencing. And it's only on KIRO, not KOMO, KING, KCPQ, etc. I noticed it again on Numbers and a couple of times during Two and a Half Men (did I just admit I watch that show?). Split second black screen + glitch + the occasional audio pop, but then right back to normal show.

This problem was definitely not there last year (watched Numbers and CSI all year without these issues) or over the summer. I can't pin-point the exact date it started, but definitely August or September.

It's different than Tivo-caused audio dropouts, pixelation that causes audio-drop outs or picture breakup.
I agree. I forgot to mention that there is an apparent break in the DD 5.1 audio data flow also, which causes my A/V receiver to "pop" out of and back into DD 5.1 when these hits occur.

I also agree that these hits are unique and nothing like I have seen or heard on my 2 HD TiVo units. I don't have my non-TiVo HD tuners hooked up right now so I cannot personally compare their behavior with the HD TiVo's. But other folks have reported the same symptoms on several non-TiVo HD receivers.

Hello I am new to the AVS Forum and wanted to get added on to this thread. I was just curious if anyone has heard of any new HD channels coming out through Comcast?

Hello I am new to the AVS Forum and wanted to get added on to this thread. I was just curious if anyone has heard of any new HD channels coming out through Comcast? There is a Seattle Comcast HD thread.

Hello I am new to the AVS Forum and wanted to get added on to this thread. I was just curious if anyone has heard of any new HD channels coming out through Comcast?
Here is the latest post on the Seattle Comcast thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8776058&&#post8776058

Hi, has anyone else noticed any sound synch problems from KIRO? Several times last week while watching David Letterman in HD sound was badly off. I was watching it on my OTA HD recorder so I don't know if it was something to do with my machine or the actual broadcast

Looking for some advice on what Antenna to buy and wether or not a pre amp is required.

I am most interested in KOMO, KING, KIRO and KCPQ.

It looks like the first 3 are doable. The one I would like as well is KCPQ for certain FOX shows as well as the seahawks of course.

KCPQ is not in the same direction as well, so do I need a multi Direction.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Assignment
yellow - vhf KIRO 7 CBS SEATTLE WA 191° 6.2 7
yellow - uhf KWOG 51 IND BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 51
* yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA TBD 115° 20.7 42
yellow - uhf KWPX 33 i BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 33
* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 i BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 32
yellow - uhf KHCV 45 AZA SEATTLE WA 115° 20.7 45
yellow - uhf KWDK 56 DAY TACOMA WA 115° 20.7 56
* green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 50
red - vhf KCTS 9 PBS SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 9
* red - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 41
red - uhf KONG 16 IND EVERETT WA 189° 6.2 16
* red - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 189° 6.2 31
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 191° 6.2 39
red - vhf KOMO 4 ABC SEATTLE WA 190° 6.2 4
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 190° 6.2 38
red - vhf KSTW 11 CW TACOMA WA 169° 6.7 11
red - uhf KMYQ 22 MNT SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 22
* red - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 25
red - vhf KING 5 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 6.2 5
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 6.2 48
* blue - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 169° 6.7 36
blue - uhf KTBW 20 TBN TACOMA WA 226° 26.1 20
blue - vhf KCPQ 13 FOX TACOMA WA 227° 26.5 13
* violet - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 227° 26.5 18
violet - vhf K03FA 3 PBS ISSAQUAH, ETC. WA 121° 22.6 3
* violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 115° 20.7 44

Looking for some advice on what Antenna to buy and wether or not a pre amp is required.

I am most interested in KOMO, KING, KIRO and KCPQ.

It looks like the first 3 are doable. The one I would like as well is KCPQ for certain FOX shows as well as the seahawks of course.

KCPQ is not in the same direction as well, so do I need a multi Direction.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Assignment
yellow - vhf KIRO 7 CBS SEATTLE WA 191° 6.2 7
yellow - uhf KWOG 51 IND BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 51
* yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA TBD 115° 20.7 42
yellow - uhf KWPX 33 i BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 33
* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 i BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 32
yellow - uhf KHCV 45 AZA SEATTLE WA 115° 20.7 45
yellow - uhf KWDK 56 DAY TACOMA WA 115° 20.7 56
* green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 115° 20.7 50
red - vhf KCTS 9 PBS SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 9
* red - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 41
red - uhf KONG 16 IND EVERETT WA 189° 6.2 16
* red - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 189° 6.2 31
* red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 191° 6.2 39
red - vhf KOMO 4 ABC SEATTLE WA 190° 6.2 4
* red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 190° 6.2 38
red - vhf KSTW 11 CW TACOMA WA 169° 6.7 11
red - uhf KMYQ 22 MNT SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 22
* red - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 169° 6.6 25
red - vhf KING 5 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 6.2 5
* red - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 189° 6.2 48
* blue - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 169° 6.7 36
blue - uhf KTBW 20 TBN TACOMA WA 226° 26.1 20
blue - vhf KCPQ 13 FOX TACOMA WA 227° 26.5 13
* violet - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 227° 26.5 18
violet - vhf K03FA 3 PBS ISSAQUAH, ETC. WA 121° 22.6 3
* violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 115° 20.7 44


seatown88
What's the cross streets nearby?
Dan

Hello Dan,

115th and 36th is the cross street.

Hello Dan,

115th and 36th is the cross street.

seatown88
4,5,7,16 all pass through a notch in the hills at Lake City way and about 75th, so you should be pretty good there. Ch13 is going to be tougher. The hilltop at Mapleleaf area, about 90th & 15th, will give you problems. I know it doesn't look like it would, but I've already fought that battle. Not impossible, but very tricky. One antenna, like the 4221, will work okay for all the directions. Ch9, 11, 22 will most likely be okay. Add into all this how many trees and obstructions are near you and in the 3 paths, and it gets to be challenge. I would start with the 4221. NO preamp should be needed. Noise is a real problem there, so try it without one.
If needed, you can add in a second yagi style for ch13 only, but work with the single antenna as much as possible. It will give you a clue as to how well a second ch13 antenna will work.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

Dan,

Thank you very much!
I will give it a try and report back.

Try re-scanning your channels with the V-Box. I had to do that with my Pioneer TV, and that brought back KIRO (see earlier posts).
I did a new parallel installation instead (on another partition) and see the exact same issue. So I think it's the vbox (or maybe the driver). Are you using a vbox, and which driver version are you using (I use the .0)?
I searched around for this and found posts by other people having similar issues, but unfortunately I haven't found a solution yet.

I had a V-Box in my system for a while, but there was an IRQ conflict between it and my video card. As of a month ago, I now have an Avermedia 180 in my system. I get KIRO just fine with the Avermedia. Prior to a month ago, I was pulling in KIRO just fine with the V-Box.

I'm not sure when KIRO started experiencing the problems mentioned in these earlier posts, so I could not give you an answer as to whether the problem is with the V-Box tuner or with the changes that KIRO made to the way they are transmitting their signal.

I had a DVICO Fusion earlier on and got rid of it, due to Software issues (IRQ conflicts, application hanging etc.). I thought the Vbox would be better. And in some way it is, it does not cause any of those issues that I saw with the Fusion. But the Fusion on the other hand did receive Kiro without problems. It seems that all of the PC based tuners have their issues (at least I haven't heard of any that runs as smoothly as some of the tuners that are built into TVs)
So I guess I have to wait, maybe this is indeed a Kiro problem and it gets fixed at some stage.

Well... my very first HD Tuner was the Fusion, as well. And, I experienced the exact same thing. That's why I ended up with a Vbox. And, even though it seemed to work well, I was having other problems with my system (occasional reboots out of nowhere, etc).

Now that I have the Avermedia, things are better. But... I had to change my Virus Protection software. My system would not come out of sleep mode and properly record. Once I changed the Virus software, it started recording properly (go figure)!

You may try the Avermedia, though your mileage may vary. It seems like a good card, so far. I've heard complaints on AVS - Home Theatre Computers thread about multipath problems, but I must be in a good location, where I don't have to worry about that.

I'm asking for a friend - his address is:
19015 20th Ave NE
Seattle, WA 98155

I believe he's using a Samsung SIR-T451 as his HD tuner.
He's not able to pull in KCPQ FOX with his current antenna. Antennaweb says he needs a blue - uhf for other stations, and blue - vhf for KCPQ. What do you recommend for an antenna, and for a pre-amp?