Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 21

DanKurts

11-07-06, 11:27 PM

Hi, I have a question also. May be Dan or quarque has an answer. This question may be related to the above. How useful is a passive reflector? It's like the ones they use for microwave radio transmission. Those reflector are big so it may not be practical in many situations but I'm interested in the behavior of reflected waves for off the air HDTV application.

swwg
Funny you should mention that.....
I just played with that a month ago. It can get tricky, depending on what you use to reflect, how the antenna was made/designed, and more. Actually bailed me out of an ugly install.
If you use one, it needs to be similar in size (wavelength), and will give varying results, depending on how far behind the reflector is. Basically tuning for gain. Can also be used to null, again depends on frequency, antenna's lobes and more.
Never hurts to try. Kind of hard to see results without a good meter. HD receivers "strength indicators" are just signal to noise ratio, and they also have to load up their buffers whenever a channel is tuned. That means you try something, wait about 5 to10 seconds for the tuner to settle, move it, wait, move it, etc.
Most antennas are designed to reject signal from the rear. About the only type you could get some good results from would be with one designed to use a reflector, like the 15-2160 Rat Shack or 4248 Channel Master. Remove their reflectors, and then go for it.
Of course, never say never, so try anything you want. Had one job where I was replacing an old rusty small VHF/UHF combo, used mainly for UHF HD. Nothing worked all that well, so I put the old one back up so they could at least see some VHF analog. I cleaned the rusty connecting terminals, threw on a new balun, BOOM ! Worked like a champ!!
If you want more theory, or have a particular idea in mind, let me know. I'll send some links on theory that might help.
Dan

swwg

11-08-06, 12:27 AM

swwg
Funny you should mention that.....
I just played with that a month ago. It can get tricky, depending on what you use to reflect, how the antenna was made/designed, and more. Actually bailed me out of an ugly install.
If you use one, it needs to be similar in size (wavelength), and will give varying results, depending on how far behind the reflector is. Basically tuning for gain. Can also be used to null, again depends on frequency, antenna's lobes and more.
Never hurts to try. Kind of hard to see results without a good meter. HD receivers "strength indicators" are just signal to noise ratio, and they also have to load up their buffers whenever a channel is tuned. That means you try something, wait about 5 to10 seconds for the tuner to settle, move it, wait, move it, etc.
Most antennas are designed to reject signal from the rear. About the only type you could get some good results from would be with one designed to use a reflector, like the 15-2160 Rat Shack or 4248 Channel Master. Remove their reflectors, and then go for it.
Of course, never say never, so try anything you want. Had one job where I was replacing an old rusty small VHF/UHF combo, used mainly for UHF HD. Nothing worked all that well, so I put the old one back up so they could at least see some VHF analog. I cleaned the rusty connecting terminals, threw on a new balun, BOOM ! Worked like a champ!!
If you want more theory, or have a particular idea in mind, let me know. I'll send some links on theory that might help.
Dan

In 6 GHz microwave radio transmission, the reflector is flat and acts like a mirror. The microwave dish at the bottom of the hill shoots toward a reflector high up on the hill and bounces the wave across to the next dish at a mountain ridge. The resulting gain in altitude provides a clear line of sight (avoiding trees and tall structures).I was thinking if a flat reflector (UHF) can be used to get around obstacles like trees and buildings.

Addition: The microwave dish is more like a spot light and TV transmitting antenna is more like a light bulb.

saywhat

11-08-06, 01:04 AM

hi Dan need some help in improving my reception for channel KCPQ (13-1) and KOMO (4-1)
currently using old rabbit ears antenna.

location: 25th Ave Se And Stafford Way, Bothell

thanks

DanKurts

11-09-06, 03:50 AM

In 6 GHz microwave radio transmission, the reflector is flat and acts like a mirror. The microwave dish at the bottom of the hill shoots toward a reflector high up on the hill and bounces the wave across to the next dish at a mountain ridge. The resulting gain in altitude provides a clear line of sight (avoiding trees and tall structures).I was thinking if a flat reflector (UHF) can be used to get around obstacles like trees and buildings.

Addition: The microwave dish is more like a spot light and TV transmitting antenna is more like a light bulb.

swwg
Okay, I can understand the logic in that. The reflector in that case is working with a highly concentrated transmission, as you pointed out. The distance between the reflector and antenna is fairly short as well. And the frequency far higher.
Does reflection work in UHF like that for reception? Not very well. I've tried, too. When you get stuck on a tough job, whatever works. However, I've never been able to get any HD reception from a reflection. The only time I've seen any significant reflections on my meter was from the downtown Seattle buildings while standing on top of a 30 story building on 1st and Lenora. Even then it was only 10% of the line of sight to Queen Anne towers, and it didn't work, either.
Analog will show more change for bounces, because the picture can be seen with far weaker levels than HD minimums. Also, analog UHF appears to be more sensitive to reflections, but if you work with it in the open, and nothing around you, and it's just as touchy.
I have seen sites where mis-aiming the antenna at something large will improve the signal, but it's because you're nulling the signal. There is a difference. You can see the overall levels drop, but get a cleaner waveshape on the meter. If the signal is still above minimums for reception, and you're looking at a "strength indicator" on an over air receiver/tuner, it would show an increase (in what's really signal to noise ratio) making one think there's more gain. It's just a cleaner, but weaker signal.
Sure wish it would work. Make my tough installs far easier!
Dan

DanKurts

11-09-06, 04:07 AM

hi Dan need some help in improving my reception for channel KCPQ (13-1) and KOMO (4-1)
currently using old rabbit ears antenna.

location: 25th Ave Se And Stafford Way, Bothell

thanks

saywhat
You're in a decent area. Get a 4221 antenna, mount it outside, and you'll probably be fine. Direction is not fussy with it, just point towards downtown Seattle.
Dan

rdn

11-09-06, 01:04 PM

swwg
Okay, I can understand the logic in that. The reflector in that case is working with a highly concentrated transmission, as you pointed out. The distance between the reflector and antenna is fairly short as well. And the frequency far higher.
Does reflection work in UHF like that for reception? Not very well. I've tried, too. When you get stuck on a tough job, whatever works. However, I've never been able to get any HD reception from a reflection. The only time I've seen any significant reflections on my meter was from the downtown Seattle buildings while standing on top of a 30 story building on 1st and Lenora. Even then it was only 10% of the line of sight to Queen Anne towers, and it didn't work, either.
Analog will show more change for bounces, because the picture can be seen with far weaker levels than HD minimums. Also, analog UHF appears to be more sensitive to reflections, but if you work with it in the open, and nothing around you, and it's just as touchy.
I have seen sites where mis-aiming the antenna at something large will improve the signal, but it's because you're nulling the signal. There is a difference. You can see the overall levels drop, but get a cleaner waveshape on the meter. If the signal is still above minimums for reception, and you're looking at a "strength indicator" on an over air receiver/tuner, it would show an increase (in what's really signal to noise ratio) making one think there's more gain. It's just a cleaner, but weaker signal.
Sure wish it would work. Make my tough installs far easier!
Dan

If one were to scale the antenna and reflector to be as large (in wavelengths) as those used microwaves, it would work. It would also be HUGE :D

swwg

11-10-06, 12:18 AM

DanKurts

11-10-06, 03:42 AM

If one were to scale the antenna and reflector to be as large (in wavelengths) as those used microwaves, it would work. It would also be HUGE :D

rdn & swwg
Or bigger!
You can do far more with much less by concentrating on receiving elements and design. For example, put four 4228's in a quad array. That would be about 6ft X 6ft. The amount of gain would be pretty good and it would be very directional. Just make it real strong. Wind load would be huge.
The biggest setup I ever saw was a giant diamond shaped rhombus antenna. I helped a friend install it in a trailer park northwest of Wenatchee in the early 70's. There was no cable or satellite, so if you wanted TV, you put up the biggest VHF critters possible. Spokane is 140 miles away, and you could barely see anything through all the snow in the picture using a Channel Master 3617 and preamp. On a hillside, about a 30 degree slope to the east, we cleared the brush away and mounted a 10 gauge stranded wire strung between 30ft poles spaced about 100ft apart. The bottom of the diamond is where we put the balun, and then used a Jerrold 4 volt (about 70db) tube amp to drive about ten trailers spread over 5 acres. Picture was actually pretty good! Looked like what you get outside of Seattle with rabbit ears. Ghosty, and some snow, but watchable and better than nothing.
That's what makes the antenna game fun for me. Take a little theory and dream up something. Doesn't have to be pretty as long as it works. So take a couple of light weight door screens, mount them side by side, cover them with aluminum foil and hang it over an antenna. Point the antenna up and see what happens. You never know. Might just be the next big thing in antenna design. Watch how fast the antenna makers try to get it patented !
Dan

swwg

11-10-06, 09:37 PM

rdn & swwg
Or bigger!
You can do far more with much less by concentrating on receiving elements and design. For example, put four 4228's in a quad array. That would be about 6ft X 6ft. The amount of gain would be pretty good and it would be very directional. Just make it real strong. Wind load would be huge.
The biggest setup I ever saw was a giant diamond shaped rhombus antenna. I helped a friend install it in a trailer park northwest of Wenatchee in the early 70's. There was no cable or satellite, so if you wanted TV, you put up the biggest VHF critters possible. Spokane is 140 miles away, and you could barely see anything through all the snow in the picture using a Channel Master 3617 and preamp. On a hillside, about a 30 degree slope to the east, we cleared the brush away and mounted a 10 gauge stranded wire strung between 30ft poles spaced about 100ft apart. The bottom of the diamond is where we put the balun, and then used a Jerrold 4 volt (about 70db) tube amp to drive about ten trailers spread over 5 acres. Picture was actually pretty good! Looked like what you get outside of Seattle with rabbit ears. Ghosty, and some snow, but watchable and better than nothing.
That's what makes the antenna game fun for me. Take a little theory and dream up something. Doesn't have to be pretty as long as it works. So take a couple of light weight door screens, mount them side by side, cover them with aluminum foil and hang it over an antenna. Point the antenna up and see what happens. You never know. Might just be the next big thing in antenna design. Watch how fast the antenna makers try to get it patented !
Dan

Wow. I might go with four CM 4228 if I ever moved to Bainbridge Island. I envy your experience. For now I'll just play around with double bow tie without a reflector - so flat that you can just tape it to the window. That is, if the window faces the TV towers. By chance the TV towers are either north or south of me. I only need to angle the antenna slightly so that it works quite well if I just tape the antenna to the window without the slight angle.

I am always on the lookout for better antenna. I might try the DB2 or CM4221 one of these days. They should work for me because I can receive all DTV channels with a reflectorless double bow tie made from wires.

saywhat

11-11-06, 07:01 PM

After connecting antenna i was able to pick up handful of local hd channel, initial reception was good but when cars pass-by picture breaks up and becomes pixelated, anyone experience this before?

thanks

rdn

11-12-06, 04:45 PM

zyland

11-27-06, 01:32 AM

bigpoppa206

11-27-06, 04:15 AM

motoring

11-27-06, 03:25 PM

zyland

11-27-06, 11:20 PM

I am new to the OTA HDTV thing... and I have a couple of questions.

I currently only pay for minimum basic cable, and do not have a cable box. I want to receive OTA HD and none of my TV's have a built in HD tuner, so I need a receiver and antenna.

So the questions.

I live at S 206th St and 2nd Ave S in Des Moines, it is near the top of a hill with pretty good sight lines to the north and west. What Antenna should I get? Roof top is fine.

What STB's are available around here? Are there any that can take the input from my basic cable and an antenna?

Thanks for the help.

Keith
If you are talking about Comcast limited basic cable, that includes the following digital channels as part of that package

KOMO-HD, KIRO-HD, KING-HD, KONG-HD, KSTW-HD, KMYQ-HD, KCPQ-HD, KCTS-HD, KCTS-SD, KCTS-Create and KING-5 Weather Plus.

I suspect that you can also get KMYQ-D2 "The Tube" but am not sure. It's not listed on their website.

So if you want to continue paying for limited basic cable, you may only need the ATSC tuner (make sure it supports QAM for the cable digital channels).

If you want to go "cable bill free", then you should check out http://www.antennaweb.org to find out which OTA channels you can get from your address. I think others on this forum have a program that will give you much better results.

As for the antenna, I only have a limited experience with one. I'm currently using the Radio Shack model: VU-190 XR which seems to do the job from the eastside. It picks up VHF and UHF analog and UHF digital just fine from Seattle.

swwg

11-28-06, 12:42 PM

I am new to the OTA HDTV thing... and I have a couple of questions.

I currently only pay for minimum basic cable, and do not have a cable box. I want to receive OTA HD and none of my TV's have a built in HD tuner, so I need a receiver and antenna.

So the questions.

I live at S 206th St and 2nd Ave S in Des Moines, it is near the top of a hill with pretty good sight lines to the north and west. What Antenna should I get? Roof top is fine.

What STB's are available around here? Are there any that can take the input from my basic cable and an antenna?

Thanks for the help.

Keith

For antenna selection, do visit the antennaweb that he referenced. You may want to try a Silver Sensor indoor antenna ( looks like a Christmas tree) aimed at a clear window (no metal screens). That's assuming that you have a window facing north and a window facing west near your DTV receiver. This is a very good indoor antenna. The amplified Silver Sensor is better than the unamplified one for the distance that you have. Sears, Bestbuy and Magnolia sell them. If an indoor one does not work for you, then someone in this forum can help you with an outdoor one.

motoring

11-28-06, 03:34 PM

Thanks, I think roof top would be better, my receiver is in the basement.

quarque

11-28-06, 09:42 PM

I am new to the OTA HDTV thing... and I have a couple of questions.

I currently only pay for minimum basic cable, and do not have a cable box. I want to receive OTA HD and none of my TV's have a built in HD tuner, so I need a receiver and antenna.

So the questions.

I live at S 206th St and 2nd Ave S in Des Moines, it is near the top of a hill with pretty good sight lines to the north and west. What Antenna should I get? Roof top is fine.

What STB's are available around here? Are there any that can take the input from my basic cable and an antenna?

Thanks for the help.

Keith
You are 14.8 miles from QA hill with no hills in the way. I'd put a Channel Master 4221 on the roof and aim it NNW so you can also get ch 13 from Bremerton without a rotor. If you're lucky you will get all the locals with a single orientation - it may take some experimentation. Use RG6 cable or better to get the best signal quality. Seal everything well and ground the mast.

STB's are getting more and more rare. I've lost track of what is available locally. ebay has some good deals on them. Don't pay more than $100 unless you have to. I believe some receivers can handle cable and antenna - check the hardware forums on AVS.

DanKurts

11-28-06, 09:59 PM

Anybody figure out how to use band pass filters like Channel Master's Join-Tenna(R) when you want to join a channel from one attenna with another channel from another anttenna and both channels are right next to each other?

For instance

11 and 13 are west-south-west
12 is north-north-west

The VHF JOIN-TENNA(R) says it doesn't work for adjacent channels

27 and 28 are south-west
31 is west-south-west
32 and 33 south-south-east

The UHF JOIN-TENNA(R) says it doesn't work with channels that are five channels apart.

Does anyone make a channel coupler that does this kind of thing?

zyland
First, depends on whether you're talking analog or HD channels. Assuming analog, it's tough to join adjacent channels. The video and audio carrier frequencies are right next to each other. They do make traps/filters to do it, but it requires more expensive versions than the Jointenna's. The Jointenna versions trap out the upper and lower channels, somewhat, as well. It's actually easier to use separate antenna's and just switch between, or combine them for certain channels. Also, using certain types of antennas can act like filter/traps depending on direction and location. To make it interesting, some channels audio or video carriers harmonics can add garbage to the picture and sound. Throw in the fact that not all channels transmit with the same amount of power, and gets to be fun!
To tie all this together on one lead, for what you're trying to do, would be expensive, and require a meter to adjust and check everything.
If you're trying to add HD into this, it gets tougher. ANYTHING can be done, but it's the cost to do it successfully that will steer you to using multiple antennas and leads. A rotor for the antenna is possible, but it adds more problems than it solves, and you have to constantly swing it around.
I've done hundreds of similar installs, usually for large distribution systems. To try and suggest possible solutions, with the myriad of channels you want, would involve pages and pages.
To simplify, where are your cross streets, analog and/or HD channels?
Dan

DanKurts

11-28-06, 10:01 PM

motoring

11-28-06, 10:44 PM

You are 14.8 miles from QA hill with no hills in the way. I'd put a Channel Master 4221 on the roof and aim it NNW so you can also get ch 13 from Bremerton without a rotor. If you're lucky you will get all the locals with a single orientation - it may take some experimentation. Use RG6 cable or better to get the best signal quality. Seal everything well and ground the mast.

STB's are getting more and more rare. I've lost track of what is available locally. ebay has some good deals on them. Don't pay more than $100 unless you have to. I believe some receivers can handle cable and antenna - check the hardware forums on AVS.

Thanks Dan

zyland

11-29-06, 09:59 AM

zyland
First, depends on whether you're talking analog or HD channels. Assuming analog, it's tough to join adjacent channels. The video and audio carrier frequencies are right next to each other. They do make traps/filters to do it, but it requires more expensive versions than the Jointenna's. The Jointenna versions trap out the upper and lower channels, somewhat, as well. It's actually easier to use separate antenna's and just switch between, or combine them for certain channels. Also, using certain types of antennas can act like filter/traps depending on direction and location. To make it interesting, some channels audio or video carriers harmonics can add garbage to the picture and sound. Throw in the fact that not all channels transmit with the same amount of power, and gets to be fun!
To tie all this together on one lead, for what you're trying to do, would be expensive, and require a meter to adjust and check everything.
If you're trying to add HD into this, it gets tougher. ANYTHING can be done, but it's the cost to do it successfully that will steer you to using multiple antennas and leads. A rotor for the antenna is possible, but it adds more problems than it solves, and you have to constantly swing it around.
I've done hundreds of similar installs, usually for large distribution systems. To try and suggest possible solutions, with the myriad of channels you want, would involve pages and pages.
To simplify, where are your cross streets, analog and/or HD channels?
Dan

Thanks for the extensive reply Dan. I was rather afraid that was the answer. I had been using two antenna with a A/B switcher as an experiment. This works fairly well but is a pain. It also rules out DVR.

I know that Comcast uses similar traps to filter out analog channels that you aren't subscribing to (or just don't want), so I thought I could do something similar to join multiple antenna into one lead.

I think that the answer for me is "Keep It Siimple" With one antenna pointed roughly west with a little south turn gets the following channels just fine (both analog and digital channels)

KATU, KIRO, KING, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG, KTBW, KMYQ

What I don't get very well that I would like to and is the motivation for the question is

KBTC, KWPX and KVOS

And the truth is that I can do without these channels if it's going to cost me a lot of time and or money. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks for the reply.

Budget_HT

11-29-06, 06:07 PM

...
I think that the answer for me is "Keep It Siimple" With one antenna pointed roughly west with a little south turn gets the following channels just fine (both analog and digital channels)

KATU, KIRO, KING, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG, KTBW, KMYQ

What I don't get very well that I would like to and is the motivation for the question is

KBTC, KWPX and KVOS

And the truth is that I can do without these channels if it's going to cost me a lot of time and or money. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks for the reply.
A funny little typo here: KATU is in Portland and is the sister station for KOMO here in Seattle.

If you are receiving that first list of stations with one antenna successfully then you are miles ahead of many folks in the greater Seattle area.

KBTC is in Tacoma. KVOS is a Bellingham station transmitting from Mt. Constitution on Orcas Island. KWPX is the local PAX station transmitting from Tiger Mountain.

Much of what you would see in HD on KBTC is PBS programming also carried on KCTS. KWPX does not broadcast anything at all in HD--just marginal quality digital SD. I don't know whether KVOS is broadcasting any HD programs or not.

zyland

11-29-06, 06:49 PM

A funny little typo here: KATU is in Portland and is the sister station for KOMO here in Seattle.

If you are receiving that first list of stations with one antenna successfully then you are miles ahead of many folks in the greater Seattle area.

KBTC is in Tacoma. KVOS is a Bellingham station transmitting from Mt. Constitution on Orcas Island. KWPX is the local PAX station transmitting from Tiger Mountain.

Much of what you would see in HD on KBTC is PBS programming also carried on KCTS. KWPX does not broadcast anything at all in HD--just marginal quality digital SD. I don't know whether KVOS is broadcasting any HD programs or not.
My mistake. I meant KOMO. I used to live in the Portland area. Both are ABC affiliates. Yeah, I should be happy with what I've got. Thanks to all for the help.

swwg

11-29-06, 10:03 PM

DanKurts

11-29-06, 11:36 PM

Well I don't know a whole lot about TV antenna but I surely can receive KBTC (DTV) from north seattle. I use an indoor antenna with a Channel Master TV Distribution Amp. If you really want to receive the Tacoma station, you may be able to do so. I spent some time in the summer testing TV signals all over my place to find the best spot for a couple of hard to receive stations. I checked the signals with an outdoor antenna and various indoor antenna but I decided that all I need is indoor antenna. With many douglas fir trees south of my place, I thought I could not use OTA HDTV. But I was wrong.

swwg
You're in the right spot. KBTC transmits with only about 45kw. Ch4, for comparison, has about 800kw. KBTC's analog station, ch28 has 676kw and it's pretty hard to get in Seattle area.
I find that unless you're line of sight to them, like western parts of Shoreline or Edmonds where you can see right down the sound to Pt Defiance area in Tacoma, ch27 is just not there. Once in a while, way up high on hilltop, I'll see a little coming in, but not enough to lock. Then there's the "Twilight Zone" areas that defy logic, like one I had in downtown Kirkland, on the water. Every where else around there, never get it. Go figure. In general, though, ch27 KBTC is just too weak.

KVOS HD is also tough, because of it's location, and it only has 12kw. And, the antenna transmission pattern cuts a lot of that 12kw down even more to the SE.
Here's the pattern

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=44349&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.995&p20=0.979&p30=0.953&p40=0.918&p50=0.876&p60=0.829&p70=0.780&p80=0.733&p90=0.692&p100=0.662&p110=0.644&p120=0.639&p130=0.646&p140=0.661&p150=0.678&p160=0.694&p170=0.705&p180=0.709&p190=0.705&p200=0.694&p210=0.678&p220=0.661&p230=0.646&p240=0.639&p250=0.644&p260=0.662&p270=0.692&p280=0.733&p290=0.780&p300=0.829&p310=0.876&p320=0.918&p330=0.953&p340=0.979&p350=0.995&p360=1.000&

I know the FCC site says it has a permit for 580kw, but whenever I look for it, I only get fumes, even from Whidby Island. Someday, if they ever power it up, it might be possible, because it's antenna is about 2700ft above seal level. And the pattern is much better to Seattle, especially northern King Co.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=71323&rotate=0.00&p0=0.773&p10=0.747&p20=0.764&p30=0.810&p40=0.832&p50=0.785&p60=0.690&p70=0.634&p80=0.665&p90=0.740&p100=0.824&p110=0.904&p120=0.950&p130=0.953&p140=0.954&p150=0.981&p160=1.000&p170=0.981&p180=0.954&p190=0.953&p200=0.950&p210=0.904&p220=0.824&p230=0.740&p240=0.665&p250=0.634&p260=0.690&p270=0.785&p280=0.832&p290=0.810&p300=0.764&p310=0.747&p320=0.773&p330=0.818&p340=0.839&p350=0.818&p360=0.773&

My buddy had a repeater shot from his house on top of QA Hill to the same tower on Orcas Island, for Muzak, and at 90 miles, it just barely cleared the horizon, with earth curvature. Depends on where you are and how high, obviously.

KWPX never has had anything I would call HD. Just upconverted SD. At almost 3000ft above sea level, it's easy to get. Direction from Tiger Mt is usually the wrong way for most of my installs, but if it's in range, not a big reception problem.

DanKurts

11-29-06, 11:52 PM

Thanks Dan

motoring
It was the Great Quarque that found that info for ya!
AND.....
I just saw a new over air tuner from Samsung at Best Buy!!! Salesman said it was a new item. Looks good, small in size, only $179, and has HDMI out, all four output resolutions 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, optical, both flavors of component, and even regular composite and ch3 RF !
Here's their link

http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalSetTopBox/HDTVTuners/DTB_H260FXAA.asp

and a review

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html

No excuses now. That's cheap enough that you can use it for regular TV's just to get a cleaner analog picture and get off basic cable, if you're in the right area, of course. My only minor objection is the switch for picking which output resolution is on the back, can't be done from the remote. I saw some other prices on the web for $159, too.
I might buy one just to keep for a tester on tough jobs.
Dan

Budget_HT

11-30-06, 02:34 AM

You can also read about the new Samsung ATSC OTA/Cable tuner here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=728392

swwg

11-30-06, 12:44 PM

swwg
You're in the right spot. KBTC transmits with only about 45kw. Ch4, for comparison, has about 800kw. KBTC's analog station, ch28 has 676kw and it's pretty hard to get in Seattle area.
I find that unless you're line of sight to them, like western parts of Shoreline or Edmonds where you can see right down the sound to Pt Defiance area in Tacoma, ch27 is just not there. Once in a while, way up high on hilltop, I'll see a little coming in, but not enough to lock. Then there's the "Twilight Zone" areas that defy logic, like one I had in downtown Kirkland, on the water. Every where else around there, never get it. Go figure. In general, though, ch27 KBTC is just too weak.

KVOS HD is also tough, because of it's location, and it only has 12kw. And, the antenna transmission pattern cuts a lot of that 12kw down even more to the SE.
Here's the pattern

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=44349&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.995&p20=0.979&p30=0.953&p40=0.918&p50=0.876&p60=0.829&p70=0.780&p80=0.733&p90=0.692&p100=0.662&p110=0.644&p120=0.639&p130=0.646&p140=0.661&p150=0.678&p160=0.694&p170=0.705&p180=0.709&p190=0.705&p200=0.694&p210=0.678&p220=0.661&p230=0.646&p240=0.639&p250=0.644&p260=0.662&p270=0.692&p280=0.733&p290=0.780&p300=0.829&p310=0.876&p320=0.918&p330=0.953&p340=0.979&p350=0.995&p360=1.000&

I know the FCC site says it has a permit for 580kw, but whenever I look for it, I only get fumes, even from Whidby Island. Someday, if they ever power it up, it might be possible, because it's antenna is about 2700ft above seal level. And the pattern is much better to Seattle, especially northern King Co.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=71323&rotate=0.00&p0=0.773&p10=0.747&p20=0.764&p30=0.810&p40=0.832&p50=0.785&p60=0.690&p70=0.634&p80=0.665&p90=0.740&p100=0.824&p110=0.904&p120=0.950&p130=0.953&p140=0.954&p150=0.981&p160=1.000&p170=0.981&p180=0.954&p190=0.953&p200=0.950&p210=0.904&p220=0.824&p230=0.740&p240=0.665&p250=0.634&p260=0.690&p270=0.785&p280=0.832&p290=0.810&p300=0.764&p310=0.747&p320=0.773&p330=0.818&p340=0.839&p350=0.818&p360=0.773&

My buddy had a repeater shot from his house on top of QA Hill to the same tower on Orcas Island, for Muzak, and at 90 miles, it just barely cleared the horizon, with earth curvature. Depends on where you are and how high, obviously.

KWPX never has had anything I would call HD. Just upconverted SD. At almost 3000ft above sea level, it's easy to get. Direction from Tiger Mt is usually the wrong way for most of my installs, but if it's in range, not a big reception problem.

Yep. I am in the right spot. Line of sight is everything is'nt it? Apparently, a large body of water also affects TV transmission, and in longer distances, the earth's curvature starts to take effect. Does snow and rain reduce DTV transmission? So does DTV achieve the same signal quality with lower power transmitter than the analog counterpart?

motoring

11-30-06, 04:46 PM

Rico66

11-30-06, 05:27 PM

bigpoppa206

11-30-06, 08:45 PM

bigpoppa206
Analog channels or HD?
Dan

Oops, forgot to mention, analog.

bigpoppa206

11-30-06, 08:55 PM

Quarque, or anyone,

Where are Channel Master antenna available around here? I checked the inventory of several Lowe's and can't find a 4221.

Thanks
I got my Channel Master supplies from eBay...decent prices too!

DanKurts

11-30-06, 11:25 PM

Dan, are you sure that the signal strength is still that low? I was never able to receive kbtc until about a month ago, when it started to show up. It's one of the weaker signals that I get (I live north of Redmond on a hill), but it's pretty consistent for the last couple of weeks.

Rico66
Well, wink-wink, that's what the website for FCC says they've registered.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=62469
Scroll down to ch27, Effective Radiated Power.
However, it's run by Bates Technical School in Lakewood, so they might be playing with the power. Not legal, but unless someone complains.....
As I mentioned, though, there are these little "warp pockets" where it does come in better. Normally, since they started up their HD channel, 95% of the time it's very weak, where ever I'm at. And it rarely comes up on channel scans when I set up a tuner.
Don't look a gift horse.....!
Dan

DanKurts

11-30-06, 11:32 PM

Yep. I am in the right spot. Line of sight is everything is'nt it? Apparently, a large body of water also affects TV transmission, and in longer distances, the earth's curvature starts to take effect. Does snow and rain reduce DTV transmission? So does DTV achieve the same signal quality with lower power transmitter than the analog counterpart?

Nick
I haven't found rain or snow to affect signal, unless it's just downpouring, and even then rarely. I have a simple 4221 at home, going through trees. With all the snow we've had, and a dozen big fir trees covered in it, I didn't see any drop outs. Of course, if your signal is marginal to begin with, it might.
As for signal quality, if you mean the readings you typically see on receivers "strength indicators", yes, you would see the same levels or numbers.
As long as you're above the minimum levels for your receiver to decode, the numbers would read about the same.
Dan

DanKurts

11-30-06, 11:50 PM

DanKurts, got another one for ya! I would like to know how to help a friend at 6006 Latona Ave NE. He says he spent $400.00 on an antenna many years ago but his reception is just horrible. I'll see what kind of antenna he has, but hoping its something simple like adding a pre-amp or something. Thanks!

bigpoppa206
The area is normally pretty good for HD, but analog gets tricky. You have 2 major directions, and a LOT of signal there. Problem is that to get good analog (minimal ghosting) you need a yagi style, the longer the better. BUT, when you do that, it narrows the reception path for the incoming signal. A good thing for channels 4-5-7-16, bad for ch's 9-11-22. You could get a smaller cheap antenna, and aim it somewhere inbetween, and it can work out, but it's a comprimise. Takes some playing around. If you have the time, by a small cheap Rat Shack 15-2151
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family
and try it. If it doesn't work, take it back.

Otherwise, he would be far better off to use a 4221 UHF antenna, and the new Samsung over air tuner DTB-H260F. Best Buy has the tuners for $179. For a couple of hundred bucks, he could have clean, no ghosting channels, and be ready for HD whenever he steps up to a new HDTV. The tuner will down convert the channels for now. If he has a second TV, it also has a ch3 output, and he can run that to his second TV. For remote control there, use a repeater. I like this simple one
http://www.weaknees.com/rf-remote-details.php
I think Best Buy or Magnolia has it, too. Works well.
Dan

quarque

12-02-06, 11:16 PM

Quarque, or anyone,

Where are Channel Master antenna available around here? I checked the inventory of several Lowe's and can't find a 4221.

Thanks
Fry's in Renton used to carry them. You have to really dig though because they have antennas in 3-4 places and the staff often doesn't know where or what they have. You can get them online generally for less, even with shipping. Note that it is also called the 3021. Try SolidSignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.

quarque

12-02-06, 11:24 PM

motoring
It was the Great Quarque that found that info for ya!

I prefer "Exalted Quarque" myself... :D

wildfire99

12-03-06, 12:22 AM

swwg

12-03-06, 01:25 AM

brownnet

12-03-06, 03:08 AM

I'm trying to figure out if my equipment is bad or I'm going crazy. I only get KCPQ-DT for OTA hidef, but everything I've seen on it is 4:3 only. Even the widescreen shows like Stargate: Atlantis are windowboxed, which is insane. I'm using a Samsung 360 to an Infocus projector, and have set the Samsung to 16:9 mode. Everything else gets 16:9 to the projector just fine.

Is there something wrong with the Sammy, or is KCPQ-DT permanently brain-damaged and actually broadcasting windowboxed and pillarboxed only content via HD? If so, do they ever actually send out normal 16:9 shows?

Q13 does send out HD, they do NFL Football on Sunday, and some primetime programming (I believe 24 is in HD, as well as Prison Break). A show like Stargate is syndicated, and I doubt Q13 has the equipment to record and turnaround programming like that, so yes, they do send out 16:9 content in a 4:3 window on a 16:9 channel. Effectively, anything that FOX sends down the line in HD, Q13 can pass through to the transmitter, but they can't record anything or play anything back in HD.

zyland

12-03-06, 01:15 PM

I'm trying to figure out if my equipment is bad or I'm going crazy. I only get KCPQ-DT for OTA hidef, but everything I've seen on it is 4:3 only. Even the widescreen shows like Stargate: Atlantis are windowboxed, which is insane. I'm using a Samsung 360 to an Infocus projector, and have set the Samsung to 16:9 mode. Everything else gets 16:9 to the projector just fine.

Is there something wrong with the Sammy, or is KCPQ-DT permanently brain-damaged and actually broadcasting windowboxed and pillarboxed only content via HD? If so, do they ever actually send out normal 16:9 shows?
I don't think it's your sanity or your equipment. Last Thursday, I was watching "'Til Death" on KCPQ-HD. It's a new primetime show and is usually in HD. Last Thursday, I noticed that it was 4:3. About halfway through the show, it switched to 16:9 HD. I don't know if the problem is with KCPQ or with Fox but I don't think the problem is with the receiver.

rdn

12-03-06, 03:31 PM

wildfire99

12-03-06, 07:13 PM

Last night I was watching KCPQ-DT again (Mad TV was on... yes I forced myself to watch it).

This time I actually *did* see 16:9 content, via a few commercials (mostly PS3 ones). So I know my equipment is working and they are actually broadcasting 16:9 content. Those PS3 commercials were pretty amazing. I am seeing a football pre-game show in 16:9 now also. Either there's way more 4:3 content than I figured, or they aren't trying hard to make things actual HD. Syndicated shows getting the windowbox treatment is just plain mind-boggling.

I admit I'm a total HD newbie and I'm probably not echoing anything that hasn't been done before, but this is just utterly disheartening for all of this HD stuff to be so difficult.

Edit: Visual anomalies mentioned before were probably my own issues. Removed.

rdn

12-03-06, 07:55 PM

zyland

12-04-06, 04:34 AM

The syndicated stuff seems to be SD on all stations, as far as I can tell. Fox, CW and MyNetwork don't seem to have as much HD programming as the other networks, but it will probably increase in the future (as will syndicated HD). In addition to the NFL games, several of the prime-time series on KCPQ (including Standoff, House, Bones and the upcoming season of 24) are in HD. I can't receive KCPQ OTA, but DirecTV finally started carrying it in HD this week.

The primetime for Fox, The CW and My Network TV is one hour less per weekday than ABC, CBS and NBC. The remaining hour Monday through Friday is typically syndicated programming which as you've pointed out isn't in HD.

On My Network TV primetime , they have HD telenovas for two hours six days a week.

The CW primetime shows are in HD with the exception of 7th Heaven, America's Next Top Model and WWE Friday Night Smackdown!.

Fox primetime has the shows mentioned above in HD as well as 'Til Death, The O.C., and Justice,

In general, reality shows are NOT in HD no matter what network they appear on.

Tweak48

12-04-06, 12:48 PM

Rico66

12-04-06, 01:18 PM

..............particulary during motion sequences? Closeups of players standing around looked great, but when motion started so did pixilation.

This was on my Panny 900 LCD projector. I switched over to a HD movie on D* with motion and it looked great. That baffles me as I think generally the OTA HD signal quality is pretty good.

I did not run upstairs and check it out on my plasma.

Does signal strength have anything to do with this? I was using OTA King as a source.
The main reason for is that there's not enough bandwidth available due to the weather subchannel. So blame it on NBC (King).
This is a pretty common issue (though it is better at times...). It is also mentioned in the game thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=762196.

rdn

12-04-06, 03:43 PM

..............particulary during motion sequences? Closeups of players standing around looked great, but when motion started so did pixilation.

This was on my Panny 900 LCD projector. I switched over to a HD movie on D* with motion and it looked great. That baffles me as I think generally the OTA HD signal quality is pretty good.

I did not run upstairs and check it out on my plasma.

Does signal strength have anything to do with this? I was using OTA King as a source.

Did you try switching to KING on D* to compare? Sometimes there are problems in the network feed. This sounds like a bandwidth issue and the subchannel may make it worse. I noticed that things improved on KCTS when they switched from 1080i to 720p.

I generally can't tell the difference between D* and OTA but there are some big trees in the way so OTA from Queen Anne sometimes looks poor here (KOMO is a bigger problem for me than KING or KIRO).

rdn

12-04-06, 04:29 PM

I noticed that KCTS-DT (ch 9.1, SD) was showing some of their in-studio programming (fundraising drive) in 16:9 and switched to 4:3 for the pre-recorded stuff on the same broadcast. The prerecorded segment was letterboxed and with the pillars there was a border all around. If they just expanded the letterbox segment to use the entire screen it would look a lot better. The 16:9 part wasn't HD, but still looked pretty good on my 42 in. plasma.

I sent KCTS an email about this and the reply was that they receive the programs from PBS in 4:3 letterbox. Hopefully as HD continues to gain more viewers more of the content will be 16:9 (especially the stuff which starts out that way).

artshotwell

12-04-06, 05:07 PM

I, too, have written KCTS about their letterbox 4x3 material. I'm amazed that PBS doesn't think enough of Masterpiece Theatre, at one time their premier program, to have HD transfers created for their HD audience.

SOT23

12-04-06, 05:52 PM

I noticed that KCTS-DT (ch 9.1, SD) was showing some of their in-studio programming (fundraising drive) in 16:9 and switched to 4:3 for the pre-recorded stuff on the same broadcast. The prerecorded segment was letterboxed and with the pillars there was a border all around. If they just expanded the letterbox segment to use the entire screen it would look a lot better. The 16:9 part wasn't HD, but still looked pretty good on my 42 in. plasma.
Hi,

Are you able to "zoom" on channel 9.1? What TV do you have? I am having a problem with 9.1 on my Sony KDL-32S2010. 9.1 is the only channel around here that uses 480i/16:9. All other channels use 480i/4:3 (or 780p/16:9 or 1080i/16:9). My Sony can zoom on all other channels but not 9.1. It cannot zoom on 480i/16:9. The problem (as you probably know) is you get gray bands on the left and right and black bands on the top and bottom. Please let me know if zoom works on your TV (assuming it is not Sony!!)

SOT23

SOT23

12-04-06, 05:55 PM

I sent KCTS an email about this and the reply was that they receive the programs from PBS in 4:3 letterbox. Hopefully as HD continues to gain more viewers more of the content will be 16:9 (especially the stuff which starts out that way).
Have you tried zooming on it to fill the screen? Normally this would solve the problem. My Sony can't do it because they are transmitting the "odd" format of 480i/16:9 instead of the "normal" 480i/4:3

SOT23

artshotwell

12-04-06, 05:58 PM

Have you tried zooming on it to fill the screen? Normally this would solve the problem. My Sony can't do it because they are transmitting the "odd" format of 480i/16:9 instead of the "normal" 480i/4:3
SOT23
I've tried zooming on 9.1 and find the quality less than good. I watched Masterpiece Theatre a few weeks ago that way and it was fuzzy. It was filmed dark, so that didn't help. Just wasn't very pleasant. Kinda like watching 8 mm movies when I was a kid. Which was a long time ago.

SOT23

12-04-06, 06:57 PM

So I will take that as a "yes you can zoom". What brand TV do you have or are you using a set top box to receive the HD?

Thanks

rdn

12-04-06, 08:39 PM

I do zoom on those programs, but the resolution isn't as good as if they were 16:9 since some of the pixels get used for the borders. Hopefully some (or all) of these programs will end up on the HD subchannel, which would maximize the resolution.

It still looks better than the analog version of the channel, zoomed or not.

SOT23

12-04-06, 08:50 PM

Well my issue is that because they are transmitting this as 480i/16:9, my set does not allow me to zoom on it. So I have to watch it with the black and gray borders. I am trying to figure out if this is just a problem for Sony TV's or for all TV's. It sounds like both of you can zoom on this. What brand of equipment are you using?

Thanks

zyland

12-04-06, 11:20 PM

I have a Mitsubishi that only allows standard and "wide expand" formats on any 16:9 content. On 4:3 content, I get all of the formats including zoom. So, Sot23, you aren't alone.

SOT23

12-05-06, 12:09 AM

zyland

12-05-06, 01:25 AM

That is interesting. I am not sure that is exactly the same as my Sony. I can zoom on HD 16:9 such as 780p and 1080i just not 480i/16:9

Can you zoom on HD 16:9 or no 16:9 at all? How old is your set?
It's three years old. It won't zoom on any of the 16:9 formats. This applies to 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.

Although I don't think it works with 1080p, which hasn't really been an issue until recently.

rdn

12-05-06, 06:42 AM

I have a 42 in. Vizio and normally use the tuner in my Directv receiver. It will zoom on any format, but if I use the Vizio's built in tuner there are a few other options available, like stretch (yuk!)

Steve Schauer

12-05-06, 02:03 PM

Heroes last night was SD for the first 35 minutes, on KING via Dish Network. Was it the same OTA?

robglasser

12-05-06, 02:15 PM

Heroes last night was SD for the first 35 minutes, on KING via Dish Network. Was it the same OTA?

Yes, I watched it OTA and it was the same thing.

artshotwell

12-05-06, 02:37 PM

Heroes last night was SD for the first 35 minutes, on KING via Dish Network. Was it the same OTA?
It looked like they had a feed issue at the very beginning...a frozen pic, then black, until they switched to the SD feed from NBC. Probably not really their fault.

RexB

12-06-06, 06:16 AM

I've a strange OTA HD reception problem. We can get King 5-1 and Kiro 7-1 nice and clear at S/S 72-83, but can't receive Komo 4-1 at all. And they are all on Queen Anne's Hill 32miles away. *confused*

I'm using a UHF CM-4228 antenna mounted on the roof about 20ft above the ground -- had read that it would also receive these VHF signals, is that wrong? We live in the middle of the woods and there are 70ft tall trees all around, but for 6 years we've gotten very good reception of the higher freq satellite D*TV and lately the OTA HD signals on King 5 and Kiro7.

I'm using the ATSC tuner in the D*TiVo HR10-250 because it finds stronger signals than the tuner in the TV.

Have cleared out the OTA signals and re-scanned for them, but Komo 4 refuses to show up.

Is the Komo 4 tower at reduced power compared to King and Kiro, or is my setup wrong?

From AntennaWeb:
vhf KOMO 4 ABC SEATTLE WA 144° 32.4 4
vhf KING 5 NBC SEATTLE WA 144° 32.4 5
vhf KIRO 7 CBS SEATTLE WA 144° 32.2 7

Budget_HT

12-06-06, 10:38 AM

RexB,

Unfortunately, you are apparently in the "shadow" area affected by the KOMO-DT transmitter antenna being mounted on the SE side of their tower. We have been told that the location was chosen to minimize the shadow of the tower by "aiming" it toward north Puget Sound.

We are hoping that after analog is shut down the KOMO-DT (digital) antenna will be at the top of the tower to eliminate the shadow.

We have heard of similar reception difficulties from folks on Bainbridge Island and Port Townsend (and maybe other sites I can't recall right now).

rdn

12-06-06, 11:04 AM

Those antennaweb figures are for the analog vhf transmitters, but the digital uhf use the same towers. The propagation at uhf can be much different, however.

I also have a lot more trouble receiving KOMO than KING, KIRO or KONG. I have tried several locations for my OTA antenna (Winegard 4-bay) and the one I have now will get a picture, but it still breaks up at times (my original location on the chimney got nothing). If it wasn't for trees, I'd have a direct shot at Queen Anne. Hopefully KOMO-DT will show up on Directv one of these days (at least they now carry KCPQ-DT, which I can't get at all OTA).

RexB

12-06-06, 01:47 PM

Thanks for the shadow info and that local digital=UHF. I'll send KOMO a nice email that folks on Whidbey Island want to watch their DT too :)

Otherwise I'll just wait for D*TV to get the MPEG4 going on all locals and a AT-9 antenna.

sign me,
hit by The Shadow

rdn

12-07-06, 01:53 AM

sam_mel

12-07-06, 02:26 AM

I saw the same thing with ota on 5.1 during the game, and I figured it was too cold for the camera eqipment! All the hd nissan truck commercials looked perfect, hence I figure it was caused by the gear at the game. I don't buy the subchannel excuse because there were commercials with lots of action without loss of resolution.

DanKurts

12-07-06, 03:42 AM

I suspect that the shadowing is my problem also. I suspect that there are a series of closely-spaced lobes and nulls in this direction. Hopefully Directv will carry KOMO in HD before long. Dish has had them since May (but still doesn't carry KCPQ).

rdn & RexB
The shadow you're referring to does not go towards Whidbey or Bainbridge. It's a narrow line heading from QA hill, about Galer and 2nd North, to Indianola. Whidbey does get a bit less power because of the pattern, but I do have working antennas near Double Bluff, north of Midvale Corner, and both sides of Possession Pt, among others there. Also have them working on Bainbridge just west of Lynwood Center, right on the beach and behind the hill, and about a mile north of Winslow in the middle of the island, in the trees. Some of these were easy, others a bear to dial in. But they do work. Part of your problem is that KOMO has a "D" shaped transmitting pattern that looks like this

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18937&rotate=0.00&p0=0.923&p10=0.976&p20=0.998&p25=1.000&p30=0.997&p40=0.984&p50=0.966&p60=0.951&p70=0.942&p80=0.937&p90=0.936&p100=0.937&p110=0.942&p120=0.951&p130=0.966&p140=0.984&p150=0.997&p155=1.000&p160=0.998&p170=0.976&p180=0.923&p190=0.838&p200=0.725&p210=0.593&p220=0.459&p230=0.345&p240=0.276&p250=0.261&p260=0.272&p270=0.280&p280=0.272&p290=0.261&p300=0.276&p310=0.345&p320=0.459&p330=0.593&p340=0.725&p350=0.838&p360=0.923&

As you can see, people due north to east to due south get full power, those to the west far less. With the right antenna in the right spot, though, it will work. I even did a survey just north of Indianola near President Point, and everything was fine.

The famous shadow is there. Even if you're close in, like 36th NW & NW 60th, near the Locks in Ballard, the signal is a perfectly ugly multipath waveshape on the scope pattern. Will NOT lock. Go 10 blocks north, though, works fine.

For your problems, the trees are most likely the problem. They can really chop up a signal. To see what is really going on, how each antenna works and where to place it, takes a meter/analyzer. Most of the time you can get it working without one. For the tough ones, though, I would be lost with the meter. And I've tried. The few times I had to work with out it was NOT fun. I share your frustration, and more. I'm supposed to know what I'm doing !

It's been said many times, but location really makes a difference. Really. Just a few inches in any direction can do it.

As for the 4228, it's a bit narrower for reception than the 4221 (which is half of a 4228). I just did a fix for an existing install on Mercer Island, west side, line of sight to the towers. Piece of cake, or should be. But ch5 was not coming in. Meter showed a very ugly signal. Wierd. Brought up my 4221, same spot, worked like a champ. So we simply cut the cross connects to one side, so it was working like the 4221, boom! Ch5 and all the other's came in much better. And with much less fussing around with direction. Which all makes sense, except why ch5 was so bad. Go figure. A lot of other things could be going on, but bottom line was you never know, exactly, what's going to work. Patience and trial/error will usually win out.
As for getting VHF with any UHF antenna, yes, it's possible, but unless it's really strong VHF to begin with, it's not going to do very much. Ch's 7-13 are the only ones that have a chance. CH's 2-6 are much longer wavelengths, no hope. And forget analog VHF, super ugly.
Dan

rdn

12-07-06, 10:01 AM

Thanks, Dan. That's good information. Based on that chart, it looks like KOMO is about 10 dB down in my direction. I'm using a Winegard PR-4400, which is similar to the CM 4221. I have a couple of other spots on my roof where a mast would be fairly easy to install and may give them a try. I can't do anything about the trees, but there do appear to be hot spots. I doubt any small changes will degrade the other channels enough to make a difference, especially the ones on Capitol Hill, which I receive quite well (the rest I can get on Directv anyway). Hopefully things won't change too much when some of them switch their digital signals to VHF in a couple of years.

Budget_HT

12-07-06, 02:56 PM

SOT23

12-07-06, 08:05 PM

Hi Dan,

You mention meter/analyzer/scope. What are you using?

Mike

DanKurts

12-08-06, 09:25 AM

Hi Dan,

You mention meter/analyzer/scope. What are you using?

Mike

Mike
A Sadelco and Sencore. The Sadelco is much faster at reading, probably3 seconds per channel, but the Sencore has far more info and a HD tuner built in, but painfully slow. 90% of the time it's the Sadelco. It has a graph that looks like an oscilloscope, showing the carrier waveshape of an HD channel. With practice, it gives a wealth of data relating to multipath, if trees are affecting things, and more. Sencore for the dog installs. It has a real atsc HD tuner in it, and shows BER, C/N ratios and much more. Also have a similar SAT9520 for satellite work. Tons of info, fast to use. But again, when aiming a dish, I also use an older analog Channel Master dual display, in tandem. You just can't beat an analog display for fast peaking. That's why all race cars still use them for tachometers. The 9520 gives the final BER and IRD numbers for the fine tune. Love good test equipment. Saves a lot time and aggro !!
Dan

DanKurts

12-08-06, 09:33 AM

Sorry if I may have misled some folks regarding the shadow for KOMO-DT. I was working from anecdotal "data" and I know that Dan has far greater knowledge of the real thing. I don't recall hearing in the past how narrow the shadow is in reality.

Budget_HT
Yeah, it's a funny thing. First ran into it when I met the KOMO engineers that were doing a survey all over Puget Sound for the ABC folks. They wanted to know how well signals were being received. KOMO had this very cool van setup with a slick 30ft telescoping mast, all kinds of test gear, including a $50k Tektronics scope and HD TV set. They could stop somewhere, raise it, swing it around and do all the testing very fast. They showed me their maps and results, and one of them was the "shadow" . It actually extends to a lesser extent due west, as well. Parts of Magnolia's east slope, looking right at the towers, have the same horrible multipath. Very selective spots, though. Not as wide or deep as the Indianola direction.
It will be nice when the antennas are raised to the top of the towers.
Dan

RexB

12-08-06, 11:46 AM

Sori for this long post...

Good info, thanks for getting me on the right track. I'll try the antenna at different locations and heights around the roof. I looked at the stations' ERP at http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm, and KOMO uses greater power than KIRO, less than KING, all at the same location yet KOMO won't come in while the others do. Weird!

Don't we love this?

Rex (shouting from the roof): "How's that?"
Donna (shouting from the LR): "Good, it's 78" (S/S on the TiVo display).
Rex: "How's the other channels?"
Donna: "Bad."
Rex: *moves the antenna* "How's that?"
Donna: "What?"
LOL

I got email respones from Don at KOMO, he's really helpful by plotting us on a topographical map and pointing out that my reception on Whidbey Island should be good. And agreeing with the null patterns saying, like DanKurts, that the DT xmtr will be moved to the top of the tower when they cease analog.

Aren't our TV DT frequencies UHF 300MHz-3GHz? So this CM-4228 antenna should be fine in a perfect world lol, and I just need to find the sweet spot. If not, I'll disconnect the leads and make it a CM-4221 and see how it does, Dan. Good idea, you've really been through the drill!

ID............Channel...........Freq (Mhz) http://www.mayhewco.com/rfn1101.html scroll down
------------------------------------------------------
KCPQ WA TACOMA 18 FOX 494-500
KTWB WA SEA/TAC 22 WB 518-524
KOMO WA SEATTLE 38 ABC 614-620
KIRO WA SEATTLE 39 CBS 620-626
KCTS WA SEATTLE 41 PBS 632-638
KING WA SEATTLE 48 NBC 674-680

Here's the email for KOMO, I like those guys :~)

----- Original Message -----
From: Don
To: Rex
Cc: Terri
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:56 PM
Subject: RE: HDTV Signal from broadcast tower?

I have attached a Microsoft Word .doc file that includes a screen shot of the terrain profile to your location. If you don't have significant local blockage from trees, you should have an excellent signal there. The Queen Anne transmitting antenna is approximately 900 feet AMSL, which should be clear of any obstructions.

As you can see from the map, my location is not that different direction from yours. The null that I spoke of should be 20-30 degrees to the west. In my experience, it is very sharp, and just a few degrees in either direction brought the signal back.

A simple test for multipath (and probably cheaper and less trouble than moving your antenna) would be to pick up a Radio Shack UHF yagi antenna (under $30) and some RG-6 coax and try moving it around to find a good location. If you find a good place, it might make sense to just use the second antenna and leave the original in place. I have found that you can rarely get all the stations successfully by planting the antenna at the most convenient spot. I use a hand-held spectrum analyzer while moving the antenna around looking for the best signal. Higher is not always better, especially if the higher location exposes the antenna to more reflections from the side and rear.

Don

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rex
Sent: Thu 12/7/2006 6:28 AM
To: Don
Subject: Re: HDTV Signal from broadcast tower?

Hello Don,

Thanks for the good information, and I'll take you up on that offer :)

The county hydrologist claims that we live on nearly the highest point on Whidbey (380 ft), and your terrain mapping will let me know it there is a bump between us and Queen Anne.

I am perplexed, because we receive OTA DT channels 25, 36, 39, 41, and 48 transmitting from at or near the same location. We had the usual fun of me on the roof rotating the antenna while Donna yelled "Good", "Bad" for all channels from the living room; if necessary I will cut a taller mast to mount the antenna higher. Moving the antenna sideways is a harder option, as the mast is in concrete projecting through the deck when we built it.

Cheers from Whidbey,
Rex

----- Original Message -----
From: Don
To: Rex
Cc: Terri
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: HDTV Signal from broadcast tower?

Hello Rex -

Thank you for your kind words and for taking the time to write about your reception problems.

At 216 degrees and 32 miles, reception of KOMO-DT should not be a problem if there is nothing that significantly blocks line-of-sight. I live about 25 miles north in Mukilteo without line of sight and can successfully receive channel 38 even with the antenna inside my living room.

The transmitting antenna pattern is known to have a 'null' that lies NW across Shilshole, Indianola and beyond. This null could cause reception problems in Port Townsend. The location of the antenna on the side of Queen Anne tower causes the unavoidable pattern distortion. After the FCC requires channel 4 to cease operation, the channel 38 antenna will be moved to the top of the tower where it will be free of pattern distorting structural members.

Other than local obstructions, I am unaware of any reason why you should not have a satisfactory signal at 216 degrees. From a quick look at a map, you appear to be somewhere along the Hood Canal, beyond Green Mountain or Gold Mountain.

The digital signal is quite sensitive to multipath (unwanted signal reflections) that can prevent the receiver from decoding the signal. If it is a case of multipath, you might be able to move the antenna a bit and reduce the interference enough to receive the signal. Even a few inches, up, down, sideways, can make the difference. Your antenna is a good one, and I would think that with some experimentation you should be able to find a good signal.

If you will provide me with your street address, I will run a computer terrain profile to see if there is any obvious line-of-sight issues.

Best regards,
Don ***
Fisher Communications
KOMO-TV, KOMO-DT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rex
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 3:58 PM
To: *KOMO-TV Comments
Subject: HDTV Signal from broadcast tower?

Hi KOMO,

I'm a fan of your news shows and general programming on your analog broadcast, but am unable to receive the KOMO TV4 High Definition over-the-air TV signal for even more enjoyment. That is a little confusing to me, as I understand that your broadcast towers are co-located on Queen Anne Hill with the KING5 and KIRO7 antennas, from which I do receive HD OTA signals.

If in the future you reconfigure you HD OTA broadcast antenna, please remember that you have fans in Port Townsend and Whidbey Island that would like to get your HD signal too. Thankyou for any consideration...

Regards,
Rex

PS: I use a Channel Master 4228A UHF 8-bay antenna, bearing 216 degrees magnetic, range 32 miles from Queen Anne Hill.

Thanks!

GGG

12-08-06, 12:34 PM

Budget_HT
Yeah, it's a funny thing. First ran into it when I met the KOMO engineers that were doing a survey all over Puget Sound for the ABC folks. They wanted to know how well signals were being received. KOMO had this very cool van setup with a slick 30ft telescoping mast, all kinds of test gear, including a $50k Tektronics scope and HD TV set. They could stop somewhere, raise it, swing it around and do all the testing very fast. They showed me their maps and results, and one of them was the "shadow" . It actually extends to a lesser extent due west, as well. Parts of Magnolia's east slope, looking right at the towers, have the same horrible multipath. Very selective spots, though. Not as wide or deep as the Indianola direction.
It will be nice when the antennas are raised to the top of the towers.
Dan
I am one of the folks right in the KOMO "shadow zone" in Ballard, it probably should be the name of a FOX tv show... I tried different antennas, tuners, placement, etc. even with some of Dan's email help...nothing... until I replaced my dish 921 with a 622 recently and voila I now get it barely (signal meter fluctuates at minimum reception level), in bad rain I lose lock. I also have 2 new Vizio LCD's and one of the built-in OTA tuners occasionally gets a lock as well if the weather conditions are right. FYI, after trying many of the UHF antennas discussed here, I have found the best one for me is the Blonder Tongue UHF with a great "WAF" factor due to it's compact size. I have 2 that I got on Ebay, Dan probably sells them as well. So until the KOMO setup is changed, there is hope via some of the newer, better designed OTA tuners & antennas.

rdn

12-08-06, 11:14 PM

This evening I couldn't get any picture at all on KOMO with my Directv H20 (which has the 5th generation LG tuner). I guess it's time to get back on the roof and look for a better location for the antenna (I'm getting to be too old for this stuff).

Later on I tried KOMO and it was back to normal for here (minor breaking up).

swwg

12-09-06, 12:01 AM

DanKurts

12-09-06, 01:31 AM

I am one of the folks right in the KOMO "shadow zone" in Ballard, it probably should be the name of a FOX tv show... I tried different antennas, tuners, placement, etc. even with some of Dan's email help...nothing... until I replaced my dish 921 with a 622 recently and voila I now get it barely (signal meter fluctuates at minimum reception level), in bad rain I lose lock. I also have 2 new Vizio LCD's and one of the built-in OTA tuners occasionally gets a lock as well if the weather conditions are right. FYI, after trying many of the UHF antennas discussed here, I have found the best one for me is the Blonder Tongue UHF with a great "WAF" factor due to it's compact size. I have 2 that I got on Ebay, Dan probably sells them as well. So until the KOMO setup is changed, there is hope via some of the newer, better designed OTA tuners & antennas.

GGG
Yeah, remember that. I stood at the intersection by your house, for grins, and used the same antenna. Very ugly ch4. It surprised me, because my customer was only a few blocks north of you, and got everything with a 4221.
The newer gen tuners are getting better. The one I would like to try there would be the V-box stand alone.
http://www.vboxcomm.com/vbox/USB-T%203550.pdf
I've seen them in action when I installed antennas waaaayy out in the sticks. Meter said nothing but fumes, and all channels came in! And not once, but about 4 different jobs. Very impressed. Not sure how well they do on multipath, like yours, but would be interesting to try.
Dan

DanKurts

12-09-06, 02:11 AM

Antenna Tilt (http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_mounts.html)

Look at the antenna above. A 10-15 degree tilt like the above may help. The tilt may avoid multipath caused by reflection off a large body of water. The 10-15 degree tilt is estimated from a vertical polar plot (scroll down):

Polar Plot (scroll down) (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html)

swwg
Tilt is one of those things that theory says should help, but never does. I've tried it a gazillion times. On every tough one, I move the antenna all over. Results vary, of course, but when I get a good spot, tilting it never makes any difference. Meter doesn't lie. Now, if you're right smack against something, like your neighbors house 20 ft away and 20 ft higher, where everything is blocked anyway, you might see a tiny difference.
As for water, I've looked at that, too. From houseboats on Lake Union eastside, homes along west side of Mercer Island, Medina, Hunts Point, Kirkland, Alkai, Bainbridge, North Vashon, and more, I've never seen any difference by tilting it from about 20 to 30 degrees forward or back. Anymore than that, and you loose the main signal, anyway, water or not. Misaiming it side to side, when level, can pick up small amounts of bounce, in a really strong area, say East Magnolia, Fremont, by I-5 on Capital Hill. But the signal also gets pretty chopped up, which usually causes the tuner to loose lock.
If you had the antenna mounted near a big chunk of metal, like 12" to 24" above the roof of a motor home or trailer, or within a foot or two of a metal building, tilting might do something, but so would moving it in any direction. You wouldn't want to be that close to a huge reflector, anyway.
Now, having said all that, never say never.
Try anything. Heck, even coat hangers!
Just don't be too surprised at the results.
Dan

DanKurts

12-09-06, 02:28 AM

swwg

12-09-06, 02:40 AM

swwg
Tilt is one of those things that theory says should help, but never does. I've tried it a gazillion times. On every tough one, I move the antenna all over. Results vary, of course, but when I get a good spot, tilting it never makes any difference. Meter doesn't lie. Now, if you're right smack against something, like your neighbors house 20 ft away and 20 ft higher, where everything is blocked anyway, you might see a tiny difference.
As for water, I've looked at that, too. From houseboats on Lake Union eastside, homes along west side of Mercer Island, Medina, Hunts Point, Kirkland, Alkai, Bainbridge, North Vashon, and more, I've never seen any difference by tilting it from about 20 to 30 degrees forward or back. Anymore than that, and you loose the main signal, anyway, water or not. Misaiming it side to side, when level, can pick up small amounts of bounce, in a really strong area, say East Magnolia, Fremont, by I-5 on Capital Hill. But the signal also gets pretty chopped up, which usually causes the tuner to loose lock.
If you had the antenna mounted near a big chunk of metal, like 12" to 24" above the roof of a motor home or trailer, or within a foot or two of a metal building, tilting might do something, but so would moving it in any direction. You wouldn't want to be that close to a huge reflector, anyway.
Now, having said all that, never say never.
Try anything. Heck, even coat hangers!
Just don't be too surprised at the results.
Dan

Okay.

RexB

12-09-06, 11:49 AM

Thanks Dan, and the past couple of daze of slowly moving the antenna around has clued me to something: I should have emphasized the tree situation here. After clearing two acres inside of this eight acres of heaven, we moved in 8 years ago.

We're surrounded by 60-100ft tall firs and alders, which allows the K-band D*TV HD signal to pass through very well at S/S 89-92, but is of course messing up my VHF-UHF reception. I've felled or topped many of the alder-weeds to improve VHF-UHF reception, but have a dozen more non-firs to go. And I hate cutting our scenery and 'barrier'.

If more experimentation with antenna placement does not cure it, I'll forgo KOMO DTV.

But give me advice on connecting lines together. KCPQ Fox DTV is showing the Great Gators and Ohio State game. But the KCPQ Fox xmtr is 35 degrees away from the bearing of the local DT stations we do get. I can receive KCPQ with a DB2 UHF antenna mounted on the same mast as the CM-4228, but what is the easy way to join the two antenna inputs into the same RG-6 line, *at the mast itself*, to the tuners? I want just one line running into the house.

Or is it best to get a better antenna for wider, and higher gain, reception? I'm tired of dinking with the problem, and will spend a reasonable amount up to $250 for THE antenna.

Maybe just climbing up and rotating the antenna towards KCPQ is the best, but ...

rdn

12-09-06, 04:37 PM

If you get Directv HD (and have the 5 LNB dish and MPEG4 receiver) you should now be able to receive KCPQ in HD, which they have been carrying since Tuesday.

RexB

12-09-06, 07:18 PM

rdn

12-10-06, 01:34 AM

Excellent rdn! I missed that news at TiVo community. Now to look/wait to get as good a replacement deal as my HR10-250 and new dish for $19.95 a year ago. The HR20 updates are improving it, get an AT-9, and good to go.

Edit: I just looked and it's currently $389 from a place (i edited out the name, oops) + 24-month D*TV lease, not too bad.

They are $299 from Directv and several other places. These are in short supply so maybe some outfits are marking them up. The software update to enable OTA on the HR20 is being rolled out! I'll probably be trying to get one myself soon. There has been a lot of discussion on dbstalk.

DanKurts

12-10-06, 04:26 AM

RexB

12-10-06, 11:45 AM

They are $299 from Directv and several other places. These are in short supply so maybe some outfits are marking them up. The software update to enable OTA on the HR20 is being rolled out! I'll probably be trying to get one myself soon. There has been a lot of discussion on dbstalk.

Great, i'll look around cuz like you say D*TV is backordered. I checked those dbstalk posts, sister site to TiVo community, and Haleluja! good upgrades for HR20 are gradually happening. Y'know a lot of the 'old guys' got banned by the new owner and started SatelliteGuys last year? A dispute about rules and criticism of manufacturers LOL ...

RexB
Channel Master Jointenna will couple them together, at the mast. When ordering, specify ch18. I believe you can get them here
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmant.htm
Dan

I was mistaken - it is overcast today and the bearing that Fox Channel 18 is on will not receive a good enough signal to watch for very long. But it never rains. Curses!

ROTFL, good link to THE antenna, if all else fails the Crossfire 3677 looks good, about the same gain as the CM-4228 but more collection area should be a help. Unless i'm confused about more dipoles vs a mesh reflector etc. Is it your experience that an 8x4 foot horizontally oriented antenna will receive better than a 3x3 foot vertical antenna with reflector?

Plus the 3677 VHF capability too would be nice, as I still recv some OTA analog and digital if the SAT TV signal gets blocked by heavy snow/overcast like two weeks ago.

I watch the tube too much.

Thanks y'all for the help and tips, I really appreciate it.

Edit: Rereading my post, and further to the Fox reception ... a week ago I walked outside across the driveway with the antenna trailing the 100ft line, and Fox came in Ok on the mound. So I figured too optimistically, that it would also receive about 50ft away and up on the roof. It didn't. The whole 1600sf roof is blocked by stands of firs that have to stay. A mast can't go into the mound because that's my septic system with underground pipes.

analog8

12-11-06, 12:39 AM

Finally I have a location with a line of sight to the towers and 100% on all channels. It only took a few minutes to program all the channels (and another minute to lock out TBN and all the televangelist crap).

Anyone else annoyed by the super-bright KCTS HD screen bug? On tonight's PBS documentary it eventually vanished but it's damn annoying while on the screen. It's my only complaint about this otherwise excellent channel.

rdn

12-11-06, 02:04 AM

It's less annoying than the oversize bug which KOMO uses on its news broadcasts, but I prefer the translucent ones.

DanKurts

12-11-06, 02:52 AM

Great, i'll look around cuz like you say D*TV is backordered. I checked those dbstalk posts, sister site to TiVo community, and Haleluja! good upgrades for HR20 are gradually happening. Y'know a lot of the 'old guys' got banned by the new owner and started SatelliteGuys last year? A dispute about rules and criticism of manufacturers LOL ...

I was mistaken - it is overcast today and the bearing that Fox Channel 18 is on will not receive a good enough signal to watch for very long. But it never rains. Curses!

ROTFL, good link to THE antenna, if all else fails the Crossfire 3677 looks good, about the same gain as the CM-4228 but more collection area should be a help. Unless i'm confused about more dipoles vs a mesh reflector etc. Is it your experience that an 8x4 foot horizontally oriented antenna will receive better than a 3x3 foot vertical antenna with reflector?

Plus the 3677 VHF capability too would be nice, as I still recv some OTA analog and digital if the SAT TV signal gets blocked by heavy snow/overcast like two weeks ago.

I watch the tube too much.

Thanks y'all for the help and tips, I really appreciate it.

Edit: Rereading my post, and further to the Fox reception ... a week ago I walked outside across the driveway with the antenna trailing the 100ft line, and Fox came in Ok on the mound. So I figured too optimistically, that it would also receive about 50ft away and up on the roof. It didn't. The whole 1600sf roof is blocked by stands of firs that have to stay. A mast can't go into the mound because that's my septic system with underground pipes.

RexB
The 3677's VHF part ain't much. The UHF part of the 3677 is a whimpy version of the 4248. Those funny diamond shaped elements on the 4248 work great for making the antenna very directional. Use a 4248 AND a 7775 UHF preamp. The 4228 works fair, but in the trees it's still too wide. The 4248 is very narrow. As for ch 13 away from the house, just use a 5ft tripod, mount it on some pretreated 4X4's, and then throw some big concrete blocks on the 4X4's. A poor mans non penetrating mount. Here's a metal one, which you can make from 1.5" angle steel from Home Depot.
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/vmp/antenna_mounts.asp
8 concrete blocks and it won't go anywhere, yet spread out over 4ft X 4ft, not much weight on the ground. The antenna only needs to be high enough above the ground so someone won't walk into it, probably 8 to 10ft. The 4248 has far less windload than the 4228, too. You might be able to get everything from the same spot where ch13 came in. Or just use two antennas on the mast. The 4228 mounted below the 4248. Jointenna them together, then a preamp. HD is going to be ghost free, if you can get it to work. Resulting picture is worth the extra effort.

Back in the 60's and 70's, if you wanted TV out in the sticks, and you are for VHF analog, I put up a 3617 Crossfire. Sadly, not made anymore. Their 3671 is very similar, but with a big UHF yagi on the front.
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/antennas_outdoor_ultrahicrossfire.html
Those funny fork like elements are for ghost rejection, and they work. Not perfect, but much better than just flat elements, like their Quantum series antenna's. The length of the 3671 is what gives you the gain AND helps reject ghosts, as well.
If you want both HD and analog, I would try one of these critters and a 7777 preamp. If ch13 HD still gives you trouble, you can use a small UHF, jointenna them, and still go through the 7777 preamp.
And remember, once you get it working, it's free :)
Dan

Karyk

12-11-06, 10:04 AM

It's less annoying than the oversize bug which KOMO uses on its news broadcasts, but I prefer the translucent ones.

KOMO is run by morons. They know screen burn in is a concern, so what do they do? Make their bug even worse than the old one.

Also, look at their new website. It's now just as bad as all the other local stations.

RexB

12-11-06, 11:38 AM

swwg

12-12-06, 12:12 AM

DanKurts

12-12-06, 03:21 AM

If you want good OTA TV bad enough, you may eventually own one of these:

http://www.bobmerritt.com/dtv/Blake_JBX14WB_Horizontal_Stack.jpg

Or this for your fringe area reception:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bayA.jpg

If you can just see a trace of signal by meter or HDTV signal indicator, then I would think that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

swwg
Agreed. 99% of the time, if there's any fumes to work with, you have a good shot at making it work. Just need to get the "right stuff".
Nice picture of stacked 4228's. That will help with gain, but RexB might also be fighting multipath. May not help. Stacking yagi's, like the first link, is far narrower, and will really get you through the trees. Doing them side by side gets tricky. The distance between them acts like an adjustable bandpass. You will get some frequencies much better, others much worse. Stacking them vertically will be easier to play with. Be sure to make the two downleads to the splitter exactly the same length. And don't bother with the Blake antennas. Overpriced, cheesy construction. Tried one for about 6 months, against the 4248 and AntennaCraft MXU59. The Blake never worked better. A few channels, a few times a hair better. Overall performance, not near as good as the other two yagi's.
Dan

DanKurts

12-12-06, 03:43 AM

Thanks DanKurts, and from that good info it looks like the
CM-3671 (173"L x 110"W V-UHF 6-11dB) Antenna with a CM-7777 Titan2 V-UHF Preamp
is my best bet(?). They are certainly affordable if they'll pull in important channels..

It has to mount on the roof. A circular drive surrounds the house, and I swore that the last trench in it would be the aDSL phoneline (buried with a tube to lay in a future fiber optic cable, if that ever happens in the woods here.) Oh yeah, and Donna says that "no big stinkin' antenna is going in the yard." But I only have to live with her.

Would you guesstimate that the 3671 with 7777 preamp will receive 2x? 3x? nirvana? better than the current 4228 (8-12dB gain), from the roof? I won't hold you to a "Yes", because the only sure way to find out is to roofmount it and see. Neither the 4228 nor DB2 re'cvs Fox from the roof.

For a recap, the setup here is:

Queen Anne Hill is mag brg 144, range 32mi. Reception is good on KIRO & KING, plus several lesser channels.

KCPQ Fox on ch18 is mag brg 179, range 38 miles. Thru a stand of fir trees. For Fox, neither the CM-4228 nor DB2 antennas recv better than S/S 16 on the ATSC tuners on the HR10-250 TiVo meter. Good UHF DT reception here needs a S/S 72 or better.

I may not want good OTA TV bad enough immediately, and the HR20-700 DVR or similar model with local MPEG4 and AT-9 antenna is lurking in my future. But I may just mount that 14foot OTA monster on the roof if it will receive Fox football and KOMO too.

Good Gawd, I may have to watch the Gators in SD :eek:

RexB
Trying to cover all scenarios, I probably gave you too much info.
What I think you need to decide is what are you really trying for, HD or analog? To do both is going to be a lot of money and time, specially if it doesn't work. If you are thinking of doing the satellite, then that simplifies things and saves bucks. To do just HD over air, you may need two antennas. They will be considerably smaller than the take-no-prisoner 3671. To use the 3671 by itself will not get ch13 HD, it's too narrow for that. A second smaller UHF may get ch13. You'll need to use a Jointenna coupler for that.
To help with the process, get the satellite folks out there for a survey, and see if you can get reception. The newer satellites at 99 & 103 are much fussier than the other ones. If you can, then look at that option seriously. You don't have to have a top of the line dvr for now. You can still use one of the HD receivers, and some plain jane receivers for the analog sets. They will do the install and everything for free, if you sign up for a year, I beleive. You're going to be there that long anyway.
If reception's not possible, then look at some other options.
Dan

RexB

12-12-06, 09:47 AM

swwg - Nick S -- those setups are Nice, gave me a wannahaveit-twinge. You're right, I'm deciding how bad I want good OTA :~)

- - -

LOL, yeah a little information overload Dan after getting all the good tips here then googling research on them *location, size, dB, lobe, location, null, amps, quality, mounts, location* doesn't take much anymore to send my synapses staccato.

And agree that since all the locals will soon be in UHF for DT and HD DT, the smartest way to get the programming I want is to go just UHF.

Anybody else get wind damage again? Part of the reception problem here was almost solved last night - another windstorm took two more of my big firs out *dammit* and some lesser Alder tree-weeds. Chainsaw recreation for the next few days. Who wants u-haul free firewood? Gotta take the fir logs along with the alder.

_________________
Rex

tuquet

12-14-06, 09:11 PM

Anyone get the game? Fox is completely gone OTA, where I am anyway.

George Jetson

12-14-06, 09:17 PM

Anyone get the game? Fox is completely gone OTA, where I am anyway.

Same here. I was about to go check my antenna, but I guess I'm not the only one. It's on NFLHD if you get that.

Seishi

12-14-06, 09:19 PM

Anyone get the game? Fox is completely gone OTA, where I am anyway.Fox OTA-HD is down for me in Renton. It worked for about ten minutes into the game, then the screen went blank. For a while, I got a 80% signal with a blank screen but it looks like they are completely down because I am getting no signal at all. Curiously, I can get an analog signal on my back-up set.

Budget_HT

12-14-06, 09:21 PM

If you have DirecTV the football game is available in HD on satellite channel 95 (from NFL Network).

DrCrawn

12-14-06, 09:30 PM

It's not working OTA for me either, but KCPQ is fine on Comcast 113, in HD. Anyone check the analog ota? <----nevermind... :o

SteveCoug

12-14-06, 09:58 PM

Fox OTA (13-1) went out right after the game started here in Bellevue too.

What a bummer.

I have Dish Network, so I get NFL Network, but NOT the HD version! :(

DrCrawn

12-14-06, 10:01 PM

back on OTA
I am having stuttering problems despite 85% signal strengh.

SteveCoug

12-14-06, 10:18 PM

Fox OTA is back on the air now, at least I can watch the second half in HD.

Rico66

12-14-06, 11:08 PM

Maybe you shouldn't have watched the 2nd half the way the Hawks are playing...

SteveCoug

12-14-06, 11:26 PM

Maybe you shouldn't have watched the 2nd half the way the Hawks are playing...

Yeah, what a disaster!

I had a bad feeling about the game when the Hawks couldn't put them away in the first half. The second half was just ugly, especially in HD! :)

derbeck

12-16-06, 12:53 AM

richmondbeach,

You may need a mast on the roof to get decent reception. I would try a good high-gain antenna first and put it up as high as is convenient for a test. I believe KONG is on QA hill but their power may be much lower than 4,5,7.

good luck,

Larry

I am located several miles NE of Marysville, perhaps 40 miles N of Seattle, and have the Radio Shack 17 element UHF only antenna up 40 feet on a tower. I have it pointed about 183 degrees per several HD station location web sites. I get 4, 5(1-2), 7, 9(1,3,5), 11 and 13 channels plus 16(1-2), 20(1-5), 22(1-2), 33(1-4), 42(1-4), 45(1-4), and 51. Channels 4, 7 and 16 are fairly weak, but usually are OK. Normally digital stations are either good or bad, there is little in between. If it rains heavily these 3 will start to break up. Rain interferes with signal strength at this distance. I do have a set top box which I can use which seems to be able to pick up stations slightly better under these conditions and maintain the signal. Antenna height and direction are quite important. But at my distance, a fixed position works for all of the Seattle stations.

Jiff

12-16-06, 06:20 PM

I lost KCPQ DT in the first quarter and watched the rest of the game in SD on cable. Could barely get a little reception on one station, KCPQ, until I went out on the roof today. Altough I can barely spin the mast by hand, the wind had spun it 90 degrees to point west. Quite a breeze we had.

ericmedici

12-17-06, 01:20 PM

tuquet

12-17-06, 05:36 PM

Everyone ok with the storm? Soon after the game it was gone for us (should have happened before the game). It was fun camping inside the house with hot bath! Back to normal about an hour ago. Cheers!

Budget_HT

12-18-06, 01:28 AM

We were among the very lucky. Our longest power outage was less than 5 minutes. We are in an "island" with complete darkness all around our 20 blocks or so that still had power.

I took my portable 2KW generator to my son's home and kept the refrigerator, small microwave and lights on starting Friday around noon. Saturday I isolated the furnace circuit from the breaker box so we could feed it from the generator (transfer switches were none to be found in the dozen or so places I checked). Just as I made the last connection from the gas furnace fan circuit to the generator, the power was restored. We tested the new capability (successfully) and then switched back to normal. Today I ordered a transfer switch from the midwest for my son.

During the football game Thursday night we lost KCPQ-DT and at the same time had one of our rare occurences of loss of satellite signal due to heavy rain. A little later I continued watching the game in HD on DirecTV channel 95.

RexB

12-18-06, 09:35 AM

No power on Whidbey for two days, but the fireplace kept us toasty. Amused ourselves by clearing out blownover trees and open the road. Cheap firewood for next year, ubuck and haul.

I feel for the peeps that don't have power even now.

Go Gators!

quarque

12-18-06, 10:35 PM

tuquet

12-19-06, 11:12 AM

I hope the rest would be able to get back to their normal lives, soon. BTW, if the Hawks were to have another night game, I think we will see earthquake!

Karyk

12-19-06, 12:12 PM

You don't really appreciate electricity until it is gone...

Or if more than about 50 volts of it is passing through your body. ;)

DanKurts

12-19-06, 04:04 PM

I just recently lost my Cable/Internet (still no idea when I'll get these back--I'm connecting to the Internet with my RAZR right now) so I thought I would try to get HD OTA and got nowhere fast. I'm at 161st and Eastgate Way in Bellevue. I went to antennaweb and it said I should be able to get most signals; however, I live in the first floor of my apt building and have yet to get past a 0 on my signal indicator. Thanks in advance for your insight!

ericmedici
That's a tough area. There's a lot of tree's and buildings in the way of outdoor installs, so going indoors and on the first floor make it really tough. On paper it looks like it should work fine, however.....
Did an install just north of there, block north of the WSP, barely got 4-5-7, which is all they wanted. Probably have to wait for the cable to get back.
Dan

DanKurts

12-19-06, 04:21 PM

We were pretty lucky. Power was out about 10 hours and Comcast was up when the power came back. Several areas just north of us were out 36+ hours (including my workplace). No major damage or trees down near us. I felt lucky I had taken down the 60-foot pine in my front yard last spring. It was starting to die and would have lost some limbs for sure. You don't really appreciate electricity until it is gone...

quarque
Just got back on line last night, 6PM, Twin Lakes, Federal Way. Really was miserable. Normally, we are the only area around here that never looses power. We all got caught with this one. By the time we realized it was going to be a while, firewood, generators, etc, all gone. Lucky to have a friend with a wood stash. 3 cords stuffed in a very inefficient fireplace, stoking it every 45 minutes, 24X7. It got really boring not having the radio or TV background noise. (Wife was to frozen to jabber on after the first day.) Took 8 hours for the house to get from 38 degrees to 70. Got my first sleep last night.
Lots to be said for being prepared, even when you don't think you'll need it because of past experience.
Another observation. All my friends said the first thing they did when they got power back was turn on the TV! Are we addicted or what ?!?!
My hats off and a big thanks to all the lineman and support groups that pulled yeomans duty to get us running again.
Now, where's the remote and what's on Sci-Fi........
Dan

DanKurts

12-19-06, 04:36 PM

Or if more than about 50 volts of it is passing through your body. ;)

Karyk
Zap-Fax 101
Funny thing about that voltage. Years ago, when Edison was trying to keep Tesla from advancing his AC electrical systems, (Edison was a big DC theory dude), he said it was too dangerous. Tesla, to show off his AC, and down play the danger, pulled a fast one by having thousands of volts go through him and another lady, harmlessly, in front of an audience of newsmen and skeptics. What he didn't tell them was the frequency was so high, it just went over the surface of the skin, instead of through the body. There was also enough resistance to keep the current low, so no harm. Edison couldn't say anything after that. He never really understood AC or it's advantages. Westinghouse bought the patents, built a dam at Niagra, and the rest is history.
You may now return to your regular show, in progress.......
Dan

JM Anthony

12-20-06, 05:16 PM

Quarque and Dan - my daughter is staying at one of the U of W sorrorities, 1805 NE 47th. Any chance of them getting OTA reception?? Thanks in advance for your help. John

allen98311

12-21-06, 01:16 AM

From DBS Talk...
-- http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73800

Quote:
http://www.quote.com/qc/news/story.aspx?story=63006499
Navarre's FUNimation Entertainment Announces the Launch of the FUNimation Channel in Seattle

Quote:
FUNimation Entertainment, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Navarre Corporation (NASDAQ:NAVR) and the market share leader for home video sales of Japanese animation in the United States, announced today that the FUNimation Channel is now live in Seattle and surrounding area. Available via digital broadcast on KHCV TV-45 Seattle Digital Channel 44-3, the FUNimation Channel will provide 24-hour digital programming of top anime series in the United States to over one million households in the Seattle area.....

DanKurts

12-21-06, 02:29 AM

Quarque and Dan - my daughter is staying at one of the U of W sorrorities, 1805 NE 47th. Any chance of them getting OTA reception?? Thanks in advance for your help. John

John
If nothing were in the way, no sweat. As we know, though, there are a lot tall houses, buildings, trees, etc around there. Ch's 9-11-22 come in through the campus buildings. Then you have to add in the location inside the dorm. A lot of maybe's. If she has cable available, she could hook up to it with one of these and get the locals in hd, down converted if she wants.
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/h260f.html
Best Buy has them for $179. They're new, so they may not have them in stock yet. I'm waiting to get one for a test.
Dan

Greyduck

12-21-06, 10:05 AM

Well that I *can* locate. I see a "Danforth" about a mile NE of you. Anyway, from that location you do have a blocking hill to the NE. You would need at least a 50-foot tower to clear it. The trees won't help either. I think you are SOL. Go with cable or dish.

My niece and her husband used to live a few miles SE of you. They were not into HD so can't give any insights from them. I never could understand the naming system over there. How can something be both a Street and a Court? :)

I'm in Wauna also, near Danforth at 8307 145th ST NW 98329. The nearest cross street is 82nd ave. I'm guessing I'm faced with the same blocking hill to the NE. We're with DirecTV and currently receiving three HD locals (KING, KIRO & KCPQ). I'm mainly interested in OTA for KOMO because D*TV has been in tough negotiations with KOMO for a long time and no telling when they might reach an agreement. I'd be interested in any other OTAs that might be available to us with the appropriate gear. :)

quarque

12-21-06, 10:51 PM

I'm in Wauna also, near Danforth at 8307 145th ST NW 98329. The nearest cross street is 82nd ave. I'm guessing I'm faced with the same blocking hill to the NE. We're with DirecTV and currently receiving three HD locals (KING, KIRO & KCPQ). I'm mainly interested in OTA for KOMO because D*TV has been in tough negotiations with KOMO for a long time and no telling when they might reach an agreement. I'd be interested in any other OTAs that might be available to us with the appropriate gear. :)

You are in a slightly better situation than the previous poster I was helping. Depending on the trees, you *may* be able to get all the Seattle stations. Ch 13 should be cake. A rooftop antenna is advised.

Dave E H

12-22-06, 06:52 AM

Anyone gotten any luck getting the "funimation" (45.3) to come in at all? It shows up on my directv guide, but no luck pulling in the signal (w/ a HD DirecTivo) The DirecTivo shows it as having 0 signal strength. Antenna web doesn't show KHCV's digital broadcasting location, but I get everything but Fox perfectly (Fox's just the red headed stepchild for me on QA Hill.)

Greyduck

12-22-06, 10:42 AM

You are in a slightly better situation than the previous poster I was helping. Depending on the trees, you *may* be able to get all the Seattle stations. Ch 13 should be cake. A rooftop antenna is advised.

Thanks quarque. Any antenna recommendation? Radio Shack?

LewH

12-22-06, 08:50 PM

Dave E H

12-23-06, 01:56 AM

RE: 45.3

I called the station today. They've been broadcasting for a few weeks, but just recently did the press release. I CAN get some signal (strength 12-16) w/ my HDTivo. I am trying to set up a separate atennna to pull in that station (using an indoor antenna and just trying to optimize the signal.)

If I can get it, I'll buy a Jointenna and set up a separate antenna for that. We'll see.

bigpoppa206

12-23-06, 03:00 AM

bigpoppa206
Move....?
It's not a great location. You're on the back side of the hill, and lots of signal bouncing around, as you know. Even if the antenna were outside, it would be tricky. Your TV doesn't have a QAM tuner (cable card ready), so if you go cable, you have to step to about $25/mo, give or take, for local HD.
If you have a south or west facing balcony, you might stick it outside, just for grins, and see what you get. If it helps, then there are some ways you can mount it.
Let me know what you get.
Dan

UPDATE: got myself a Samsung DTB-H260F set top box and I am currently using an A/B switch between on OTA antenna (DB2 with a CM 7777 preamp) and Comcast cable. The box pulls in the OTA signals a LOT better than the tuner on my Samsung TX-R2678WH set; a lot more stable also. Found all the QAM channels through the cable connection, however its curious that the box does not find any of the basic cable channels (2-99) but I can live with the setup. Best $$$ I've spent yet! If you have basic Comcast cable, you need this box!

DanKurts

12-23-06, 04:23 AM

Hello everyone. I just signed up and have been searching for answers regarding OTA HDTV reception. My situation is as follows, and I hope some of the very knowledgeable folks here can provide some answers to get me started on the right foot.
I live on the south end of Vashon Island. The address is 28726 Vashon Hwy SW. I have no hills that I believe would be in the way of receiving signals, and my elevation is around 300 feet. I have a facia mounted outside antenna that receives most of the local channels with (from strongest to weakest) 4, 5, 13, 28, 9, 11, 7, 22, 16 non HD channels received and the occassional 2 out of vancouver in the winter mornings. The roof on the house is a metal roof of hip design. The Antenna, where it is currently located, actually sits about 6 feet below the ridge line on the northwest corner of the house attached to the facia board. We are about to take the step up to a plasma set, and have sort of settled on the
Samsung HPS5073, as a stand alone application, i.e, without the need of a separate tuner, to receive OTA HD signals. So, I would like to find the best antenna solution for
receiving OTA HD broadcasts. Also, if anyone has any thoughts about the quality of the
Samsung unit we are looking at, please chime in. Is there an omni directional antenna that would be effective. We have fir trees that would be in the signal path from all directions except the southsouth west (towards Point Definance Park). Is a vertical array
preferrerable to a horizontal? If the reception is
less excellent will I find that I have a hard time watching the channels on a plasma?
I'll be doing a lot of reading on the board, trying to come up to speed, but I thought I'd
see if anyone could give me some experienced answers to start me off.
Merry Christmas to all,
Lew

Lew
I've driven by your place many times. The hill and trees are going to give a challenge. There's a good mile of trees in the way, and you're about a hundred feet below the hilltop, before adding in another 50ft for trees. Not sure what to tell you. Did a job at Quartermaster Dr and 98th, similar trees and problems. Fairly tricky finding the right spot. Ended up using a yagi style and preamp. Normally that would tend to not get ch13, but at the time, ch13 was coming in on ch22, so it wasn't a major issue. Still, a 2nd small yagi could be coupled in if needed. I'm not familiar with the model of Samsung you're buying, so can't say how well the HD tuner will work in a tough spot. Usually, Samsungs have very good ones. A few other models have been marginal. If I were to start with one antenna, it would be the Channel Master 4248 and 7775 preamp. It needs to be at least 3ft above the roof. Location and direction will be critical and fussy. Think of threading the needle through the trees. 8" in any direction, up/down/forward/sideways/etc, can make or break. Not sure if the TV will let you see the channels in real time, or require you to do a scan to see the resulting strengths on it's strength meter.
Patience will win out.

Samsung plasma for performance is fair. On a 1 to 10 scale, a 6. It also does a goofy thing that drives me nuts. When there is no signal for more than a few seconds, it turns off. If you have a slow switching HDMI connection, like switching from DVD to antenna or cable box through a receiver, and it gets busy checking for proper signals, it can delay up to 10 seconds. Sound comes through right away, but picture can get delayed just enough to make it shutdown. You can't disable this "feature", arrgggghh. A good way to test it is to check one out at the showroom. Just have the salesman switch the input to something without a connection. If it says "No Signal!" and turns off in 5 seconds or so........
As for performance, whites are kind of yellowish, and blacks look charcoal. Color decoding only fair, and artifacts, noise in picture, and more are just not acceptable for me. Seen side by side, same program material, with good ones, no comparison. A good brand for a good price is the latest Panasonic high end plasmas. Not much more in bucks, but far better performance. When we used to sell TV's in my dad's shop, we would tell the customer that if you divide the small increase in price by the time you'll be enjoying the much better picture, at least ten years, it works out to be very little per month or year. I usually tell people if it's that tight on money, then wait another month or two, save up the extra bucks, and get the better one. Most likely will be chaeper, then, anyway.
Hands down best, Pioneer Elite, followed closely by Fujitsu. Panasonic a good third. The rest are not even close. I install and set up these brands, and others for people, as well as antenna installs, every day. When you get it right, the picture just pops off the screen. Go to a dealer where they have a wall of sets, and then look at the pictures during the noon or evening local HD newscasts. When they have the people sitting behind the desks, live, that's the best picture you're going to get. Then look at the whites in the picture. The two sets with the whitest whites will be the Elite and Fujitsu. Blacks will be deeper, too. Most people don't realize that color info lays on top of a black and white picture, to make the final picture. If the whites aren't white, throws all the colors off a little. ALso, the Panasonics tend to come out of the box with the color jacked up a bit much, so ignore the reds looking a bit strong. If the salesman will let you, dial it back a few points. If you love watching movies and DVD's, then the Elite is the only one. It doesn't drop the half frame on the 3:2 pulldown. For an explanation
3:2 pulldown, scroll down this page to the gray shaded area.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html
It's what really separates the Elite, and the Fujitsu which is almost as perfect, from all the others. Yeah, I'm pretty fussy. I've been trained, for good or bad, to look for flaws since I was a kid (thanks, Dad, I think.....!) This whole page has a bunch of good data on DVD players, but it also pertains to the way pictures are viewed and what all these strange terms mean.

Okay, done chiming in!
Dan
Call if you have questions
206-794-3993

DanKurts

12-23-06, 04:36 AM

UPDATE: got myself a Samsung DTB-H260F set top box and I am currently using an A/B switch between on OTA antenna (DB2 with a CM 7777 preamp) and Comcast cable. The box pulls in the OTA signals a LOT better than the tuner on my Samsung TX-R2678WH set; a lot more stable also. Found all the QAM channels through the cable connection, however its curious that the box does not find any of the basic cable channels (2-99) but I can live with the setup. Best $$$ I've spent yet! If you have basic Comcast cable, you need this box!

Cool!
Where did you get the box. Been itching to try one. A few of the basic cable local analog channels are there digitally, not HD but analog on digital carrier. Here's a list. Ch7 HD may now be 86-2 , not sure. Note there's also a ch7 analog on the digital carrier at 80-2, and then regular analog 7 as well. The local cable HD channels seen through this new box, or a built in QAM tuner, like on a Pioneer Elite, look far better than through the Motorola HD cable boxes.
Dan

bigpoppa206

12-23-06, 05:45 AM

Cool!
Where did you get the box. Been itching to try one. A few of the basic cable local analog channels are there digitally, not HD but analog on digital carrier. Here's a list. Ch7 HD may now be 86-2 , not sure. Note there's also a ch7 analog on the digital carrier at 80-2, and then regular analog 7 as well. The local cable HD channels seen through this new box, or a built in QAM tuner, like on a Pioneer Elite, look far better than through the Motorola HD cable boxes.
Dan
Circuit City, Everett. I have been watching out for one for the past month since their website let's you know when they are actually in stock as opposed to Best Buy which lists the item but only shows you what stores are closest to your zip code. It's a great little box and it really holds onto a signal given the limitations of my location.

Still wondering why my regular basic cable channels don't come through the box though...might be the splitter (which does have an Arcom filter on it) for my High Speed Internet, although it is the one that Comcast themselves put in.

Yes, CBS @ 1080i (KIRO) is on 86.2. I pretty much deleted all the 480i channels and all the blank ones it mapped out. Still trying to figure out what #100.5.6 or .7 is...seems like someone is fast forwarding through some programs at times.

quarque

12-23-06, 05:08 PM

Thanks quarque. Any antenna recommendation? Radio Shack?

RS has cheapie that is generally recommended for trials: 15-2160 ~ $25
It is fairly directional and may not pull in everythting with a single heading.
If you find that you get most/all stations to some degree then you can experiment with more expensive units if necessary. Your aim should be NNE to NE to start. Swing to NNW if ch 13 does not come in. A bowtie design like the CM 4221 should work for all when aimed due north because of its wide beam. But the 4221 can be difficult to find locally and about $60 off the net.

Greyduck

12-23-06, 05:17 PM

RS has cheapie that is generally recommended for trials: 15-2160 ~ $25
It is fairly directional and may not pull in everythting with a single heading.
If you find that you get most/all stations to some degree then you can experiment with more expensive units if necessary. Your aim should be NNE to NE to start. Swing to NNW if ch 13 does not come in. A bowtie design like the CM 4221 should work for all when aimed due north because of its wide beam. But the 4221 can be difficult to find locally and about $60 off the net.

Thanks so much for your detailed assistance. Have a Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year. :)

quarque

12-23-06, 05:19 PM

quarque

12-23-06, 05:30 PM

...
Still trying to figure out what #100.5.6 or .7 is...seems like someone is fast forwarding through some programs at times.

I believe that is your neighbor(s) PPV or On-Demand programming, with FFW, REW and all.

LewH

12-23-06, 06:03 PM

Dan,
Thanks for taking time to share your experience and opinions. The Pioneer Elite was actually our first choice, but I found the deep discounts on th Samsung, along with the in the showroom viewing to be very persuasive. Based, on your feedback, however, we've decided to go with the Elite model.
Merry Christmas,
Lew

LewH

12-23-06, 06:38 PM

Oh, one quick question: Where can Channel master antennas be purchased in the Seattle Tacoma area?
Regards,
Lew

Dave E H

12-23-06, 07:20 PM

Rico66

12-23-06, 09:29 PM

Oh, one quick question: Where can Channel master antennas be purchased in the Seattle Tacoma area?
Regards,
Lew
Frys in Renton has them sometimes. Note that there are multiple places (2 or 3 different spots) in the store, where they keep them. Their stock varies as well, so there's no guarantee that they have the desired antenna in stock.

DrCrawn

12-23-06, 09:43 PM

45-3 sucess!

I bought the Terk Silver Sensor Clone (amped version) from Best Buy today and moved my testing unit (15" LCD + Mistubishi SR-HD5) upstairs and I'm testing it out now. I can get a very very stable signal w/ the indoor antenna on top of QA Hill (antenna web doesn't think I can get it from my location) but its 72-86 atm w/ no drop outs.

I may buy a jointenna and hook all this up together - haven't decided. Still playing with it, but I'm very encouraged.

Next step really is to try and get this to work w/ the HDTivo, but I really have no idea how good a receiver that is vs the e86 type box I am using now for testing.

What is the 45 channel? I can get about 35% in TSReader without trying using a SS antenna. Seems their antenna height is great, but their power output is just terrible. I'm at the north end of Capitol Hill near Broadway btw. I can get TBN from T town no prob, so I get pretty good reception for indoor antenna. Is it worth the effort?

rdn

12-24-06, 09:22 AM

45 is Spanish-language (Azteca). I think it is owned by Fisher (KOMO).

Kelly From KOMO

12-24-06, 10:47 AM

45 is Spanish-language (Azteca). I think it is owned by Fisher (KOMO).

Actually Fisher, (KOMO), recently purchased KWOG channel 51 (50 DTV), and changed the call letters to KUNS, (Univision Seattle). Currently they are fullfiling the existing Shop NBC contract for programming, then January 1 will be changing to Univision Spanish programming.

For those of you on this board who speak Spanish, there currently is not HD programming available from Univision, but look for a "dot two" coming soon.

Happy Holidays,

Kelly From KOMO

Karyk

12-24-06, 02:23 PM

Frys in Renton has them sometimes. Note that there are multiple places (2 or 3 different spots) in the store, where they keep them. Their stock varies as well, so there's no guarantee that they have the desired antenna in stock.

I was just down there shopping, and noticed a lot of boxes full of antennas compared to what they had when I was looking about 2 years ago. I didn't note the brand or the type.

This was at the front of the store, to the west. They used to also have some at the rear to the east. Not sure if they are still there also.

rdn

12-24-06, 05:22 PM

Actually Fisher, (KOMO), recently purchased KWOG channel 51 (50 DTV), and changed the call letters to KUNS, (Univision Seattle). Currently they are fullfiling the existing Shop NBC contract for programming, then January 1 will be changing to Univision Spanish programming.

For those of you on this board who speak Spanish, there currently is not HD programming available from Univision, but look for a "dot two" coming soon.

Happy Holidays,

Kelly From KOMO

Sorry about that, Kelly. I knew that Fisher had purchased a station and was switching it to Spanish-language. I had the wrong one!

Any word about KOMO HD and Directv? I've tried about all the possible locations for an antenna and am still having occasional problems (although at least I can now get a picture most of the time).

Season's greetings to all.

Bob

Kelly From KOMO

12-24-06, 06:19 PM

Sorry about that, Kelly. I knew that Fisher had purchased a station and was switching it to Spanish-language. I had the wrong one!

Any word about KOMO HD and Directv? I've tried about all the possible locations for an antenna and am still having occasional problems (although at least I can now get a picture most of the time).

Season's greetings to all.

Bob

Yes as a matter of fact, the negotiations between DirectTV and KOMO's parent company Fisher, finally have been recently completed.

I'm not sure when DirectTV will be geared up to start sending out KOMO-DT HD programming, but I have to imagine it will be soon. The ball is in DirectTV's court now.

Over The Air is still the superior picture if you can get it.

Happy Holidays,

Kelly From KOMO.

DanKurts

12-24-06, 10:02 PM

Oh, one quick question: Where can Channel master antennas be purchased in the Seattle Tacoma area?
Regards,
Lew

LewH
If you want a 4221, Fry's in Renton has the 4228, which is two 4221's side by side. Try it as is, and see what you get. If ch 13 doesn't come in when Seattle does, then get a small Radio shack 15-2160, cheapy for about $25. You can mount it lower on the mast, point it towards Port Orchard/Gold Mt. If that works, then couple them together with Jointenna for ch13 (order ch18). Warrens has them.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm
If you get stuck, call.

Glad to hear you're going for the good stuff, Elite. You won't be disappointed.
Dan

DanKurts

12-24-06, 10:06 PM

Circuit City, Everett. I have been watching out for one for the past month since their website let's you know when they are actually in stock as opposed to Best Buy which lists the item but only shows you what stores are closest to your zip code. It's a great little box and it really holds onto a signal given the limitations of my location.

Still wondering why my regular basic cable channels don't come through the box though...might be the splitter (which does have an Arcom filter on it) for my High Speed Internet, although it is the one that Comcast themselves put in.

Yes, CBS @ 1080i (KIRO) is on 86.2. I pretty much deleted all the 480i channels and all the blank ones it mapped out. Still trying to figure out what #100.5.6 or .7 is...seems like someone is fast forwarding through some programs at times.

bigpoppa206
Thanks. What are they selling them for?
The analog basic cable channels may not come in if it's a digital tuner only.
Dan

bigpoppa206

12-25-06, 04:57 AM

bigpoppa206
Thanks. What are they selling them for?
The analog basic cable channels may not come in if it's a digital tuner only.
Dan
The standard price, $179.99 plus tax. Try this link! (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-HD-Tuner-DTB-H260F/sem/rpsm/oid/164855/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)

DanKurts

12-26-06, 03:00 AM

45-3 sucess!

I bought the Terk Silver Sensor Clone (amped version) from Best Buy today and moved my testing unit (15" LCD + Mistubishi SR-HD5) upstairs and I'm testing it out now. I can get a very very stable signal w/ the indoor antenna on top of QA Hill (antenna web doesn't think I can get it from my location) but its 72-86 atm w/ no drop outs.

I may buy a jointenna and hook all this up together - haven't decided. Still playing with it, but I'm very encouraged.

Next step really is to try and get this to work w/ the HDTivo, but I really have no idea how good a receiver that is vs the e86 type box I am using now for testing.

Dave E H
The Jointenna won't work for ch45. It has wide skirts. It will attenuate about 5 channels either side of 45, so KING, at 48, and KCTS at 41, will probably be gone.
The only two channels it will work on around here are ch18 (ch13 FOX) and ch48 (KING 5) if you're not going for ch 45.
All the rest are too close to each other.
The E86/Toshiba3000 style receivers are all over the map. Some were great, others junk. I have 4 of them, all different in reception. Same with HD Tivo's. From your description, you may have some good ones. Be sure to give them plenty of air. When they get hot, they're goners.
Dan

DanKurts

12-28-06, 03:06 AM

The standard price, $179.99 plus tax. Try this link! (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-HD-Tuner-DTB-H260F/sem/rpsm/oid/164855/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)

bigpoppa206
Finally got one.
The good news. AWESOME!

I live in west Federal Way, use a 4221, on the north side of my house, no amp. There's a small stand of fir trees I go through. My two bad channels are 9 and to a lesser degree when the wind blows through the trees, ch13. Never got even a whiff of ch28 (27 digital) because it's behind me, to the SW. The signal has to come in through the house and the backside of the antenna. Meter says nothing there, below -30db threshold, as it should with all that blocking it. Ch9 is very ugly. Fair amount of signal, but very chopped up by the trees. On my old Mits/Hughes E86 sat receiver, ch9 bounces around between zero and 20. Locks for a split second, then gone for 5 seconds or more. When I had my Dad's new Pioneer 50" here last xmas, setting it up, I ran the antenna through it. It worked a hair better on ch9, almost watchable. All my other normal channels come in okay. Signal waveshape on my meter is not great, but it works.

The H260 Samsung pulled them ALL in.
Not a hiccup.
What was amazing is ch28. The "strength" meter has ten bars, ten being best. Ch28 only reads 2 to 3 bars, bounces back and forth, never goes to 1 bar. I watched the channel for ten minutes, rock solid. Ch9 is rock solid, 6 bars out of 10. I normally get 4-5-7-11-13-16-20-22. The rest aren't there. The H260 also pulled in ch33 PAX, ch43 ( the new one, which barely reads here on my meter) ch51, ch 56. Amazing.

Now for the minor gripes.
No closed captioning, no menu's or On Screen Display at all using the standard def video outputs. All are there on HD outputs. Don't know why. All Samsungs other receivers did it for years. Go figure. It also means if you're using the analog standard def outputs only, you have no way of knowing what channel your on. Of course, you can re-enter the channel number with the keypad. If you're just surfing up and down, it gets a little frustrating with cable. Over Air signals are easy to figure out where you're at, but there's a ton of cable channels.

No strength indicator for Cable digital channels. And the one for the Over Air is about 5 button pushes down in the menus. Once there, you can't channel up/down to check the others. You have to tune the channel, open the menu, then check strength. My old E86 will let you check them all once there.

No analog tuner, for cable or over air.

More good stuff.
There's only one antenna input for both Cable and Air. It has a toggle Ant button for the two tuners. However, it memorizes each separately. That means you could use an antenna A/B switch (for the cable and over air lead ins) and simply toggle the H260 back and forth between the two internal tuners. If you use a remote A/B switch, like Rat Shack sells for about $40 (and it has discrete codes), flipping between them could be done as a macro, like on a Pronto or other programmable remote.

Cable tuning.
As I mentioned, no analog channels come in. I have Comcast basic, channels 2-29. However, they do have all the local analog channels on a digital carrier, so KIRO comes in on channel 80-2, and KIRO HD is on 86-2. All the others show up in HD except ch11. Analog 11 is there, though, but not sure what it's number is. Had to cut my testing short so Her Highness could watch her fav shows.
Did see an On Demand channel for Encore 101-10. We don't subscribe to that, so not sure wassup there, but it was looking just fine. Also saw the Movieplex channel 114-9.
One wierd thing was the radio channels, 112-421, 422, 423, etc, would play for about 1 second, then cut out, then play for a second and so on. My cable is at +5db, and all the other channels work great, so I don't think weak level was the problem. The DMX channels, 118-16 to 118-23, did the same thing. When I tried my Dad's Elite last year, which has a cable card ready tuner, he got the radio channels fine. But that was last year.
However, the Regular Music Choice channels came in, with the normal video screen and great sounding audio. At least compared to the ridiculous compressed XM music channels on my satellite. There were other channels, too, which I didn't have time to identify, but I will. I'll update my list and post it here when I get a nanosecond.

The one thing I want to impress on you is what I saw a year ago with my Dads Elite. Running the cable local HD channels, 4-5-7-9 etc through the Elite QAM tuner, AND through the Motorola HD box, showed a huge difference in picture crispness and clarity. On my high end installs since then, I've programmed the remotes to flip to the QAM tuner for them, and back to the cable box input for the rest of the cable HD channels.
Now, for $179, you can also do that, even if you don't have a QAM or Cable Card Ready tuner. My tired 8 year old Panasonic 50" plasma, with a gazillion hours on it, looked great. Made me realize how bad my E86 HD output was!! Guess I'll have to get a new sat tuner, too.

I still have one more test to run with this tuner, Saturday. Customer has a new 63" Fujitsu plasma we put in, over air antenna that has been getting progressively worse reception (he's behind those big new buildings in downtown Bellevue, and in a gully with trees getting taller, not much hope), and he just swapped over to HD cable. We have an extra set of cable hookups going to his receiver, so doing an A/B compare is going to be as easy and fast as punching the input buttons. We'll also be able to test the fringe/ugly antenna signal for locking in, too. I'll update this post probably Sunday.

If this does as good as I think it will, this should solve a lot of those problem sites, where it almost works. And do it for small bucks!

Last, for those of you that just want the basic 4-5-7 over air, (and don't even have HD TV's) and don't want to pay for basic cable, this does a great job of downconverting the HD to regular analog. You will need a ch3 RF modulator if your analog set doesn't have video/audio inputs. I thought the Ant Out jack had a modulated signal, but my mistake. Was in a hurry and didn't read all of the manual. It does pass through analog channels, but that's it.
If you have another regular TV in the house you want to get signal to, but it doesn't have any way to downconvert your existing HD signal, no sweat. Split the UHF antenna, run it over to this box, and you have a great ghost and noise free picture.

Stay tuned, pun intended!
Dan

jcricket

12-28-06, 04:42 PM

rdn

12-28-06, 06:55 PM

Did the new "CW" (Channel 11) move antennas or increase power or something? I went from not being able to get it reliably, to getting a rock-solid signal on my HR10-250 (HD Tivo from DirecTV). Or is it just the lack of leaves this time of year? Kind of handy as the WB programming that I cared about moved to 11 from 22.

Also - anyone heard an update on when DirecTV will get the remainder of the locals broadcast via their new MPEG4 satellites? Last I heard there was some kind of hold up with the local ABC and Fox stations.

Directv has had KCPQ for several weeks in HD and Kelly announced (see an earlier message in this thread) a few days ago that Fisher and Directv had reached an agreement so KOMO should show up soon. Although I don't know how many MPEG4 channels they run through a transponder, I suspect that the others won't be carried until new satellites are operational sometime in 2007.

gdc

12-29-06, 12:44 PM

Oh, one quick question: Where can Channel master antennas be purchased in the Seattle Tacoma area?
Regards,
Lew
I found mine (attic mounted) at Lowe's. Paired with a Samsung H260F, I am a happy camper!

Temple

12-29-06, 09:29 PM

DanKurts

12-29-06, 11:49 PM

Can someone tell me if I will be able to get OTA signal lock at this location:

2000 Newport Way NW Issaquah WA 98027

I have read parts of this large thread but I am still unsure of what antenna would work best for my location...

Thanks!

Temple
Nope.
You're behind the hill and around the corner, with a few gazillion trees in the way.
Never say never, but much higher on the hill at Isola Place I can barely get it, and just a little lower on Cervinia Court it's hopeless. I would suggest cable.
If all you want is the basic Seattle channels, and you have a QAM tuner or cable card ready tuner in your TV, basic cable for $12/mo will get them for you by connecting it to the tuner. No HD cable box needed. If you don't have one of those tuners, you might want to check out the Samsung tuner I reviewed, a few posts earlier.
Dan

Temple

12-30-06, 04:38 PM

mike84

12-30-06, 07:33 PM

rdn

12-30-06, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the info Dan!

I do have a tuner built in but can not figure out how to get my HD programing setup on it. I spent 6 hours last night trying to figure it out!

I have a Samsung HP-S4273 plasma and it has NTSC/ATSC Tuner Built in/ Digital Cable Ready/ DCR Tuner. Can anyone give some info of how to set this up?

I tried HRC IRC and STD but none of these worked when setting up the digital HD channels. Do I have to get a cable card?

Thanks much!

I'm not familiar with that set, but those sound like settings for the NTSC tuner. Does the ATSC tuner have a separate input (requiring a splitter if you want both)? It might also require the selection of a different input with the remote. All the sets I have tried had a scan function as part of the ATSC setup which looks for the available HD stations and makes them available using pseudo channel numbers (like 5.1 for KING-DT, rather than 48.1).

DanKurts

12-31-06, 02:43 AM

Thanks for the info Dan!

I do have a tuner built in but can not figure out how to get my HD programing setup on it. I spent 6 hours last night trying to figure it out!

I have a Samsung HP-S4273 plasma and it has NTSC/ATSC Tuner Built in/ Digital Cable Ready/ DCR Tuner. Can anyone give some info of how to set this up?

I tried HRC IRC and STD but none of these worked when setting up the digital HD channels. Do I have to get a cable card?

Thanks much!

Temple
Set the scan for Cable, not Air. Use Digital, if it asks for it. When done, you should see channels with numbers like 86-2 for KIRO HD . Or might be 86.02, etc. There will also be a channel for the analog KIRO, 80-2. There are Music channels, too, and some other stuff.
Here's a partial list. I'll try to update it soon with the rest.
Dan

DanKurts

12-31-06, 02:53 AM

Hi, Just bought a tv tuner for my computer got it setup and working . I'm having trouble getting channel Kcpq 13 (18) , Ktbw 20(14),kbtc 28(27) and komo 4 (38)
Already getting channels that antenna web diddn't perdict would come in.
Any suggestions for getting the rest of the chanels. I'm in a second story apartment in downtown tacoma 25th. and south g st. with a view of the tideflats.

Thank You

Mikethespike

Mike
You need to orient the antenna so it can see more North, towards Browns Point or the 11th St Bridge for KOMO. About on a line with G st. Ch 28/27HD will be tough, as it's more west. Ch13 and 20 come from Bremerton/Gold Mt. which is NW of you. Depends on how many buildings are in the way from your window or balcony.
Dan

Temple

12-31-06, 04:37 AM

Temple
Set the scan for Cable, not Air. Use Digital, if it asks for it. When done, you should see channels with numbers like 86-2 for KIRO HD . Or might be 86.02, etc. There will also be a channel for the analog KIRO, 80-2. There are Music channels, too, and some other stuff.
Here's a partial list. I'll try to update it soon with the rest.
Dan

I did all of the above and all I got was an error on each channel saying "week signal or scrambled". I hope I do not have to get a cable card...

It does ask me what type of signal for cable and the options are hrc, irc, and std.
Which one should I use for digital cable? I have pretty much tried them all...

Thanks for the list! Hope I get to use it soon :)

LewH

12-31-06, 03:00 PM

niharika

12-31-06, 05:07 PM

swwg

12-31-06, 11:15 PM

Niharika,

A popular one is the log periodic antenna that looks like a Christmas tree. There are several manufacturers. Zenith, Gemini, Terk and others. Here's one review:

http://www.audaud.com/audaud/APR05/component/comp2.html

Definitely, placement of an antenna can make a big difference. Before you go out to the store (Sears, Circuit City, Magnolia) you can just reposition your present antenna to see if a new location helps to pull in the stations you want. Due to the large spread of TV tower directions, you can either rotate your antenna to get the station you want or use a second antenna with an antenna switch.

It's tough when you have a condo facing you within 100 ft but as Dan said, never say never.

DanKurts

12-31-06, 11:59 PM

My address is 14435 NE 40th St. Bellevue WA 98007.
I got a RCA ANT585 amplified antenna.
I live in a condo on the 2nd floor. There are some trees and the top floor of another condo building is in front of my condo but about 100 feet or so away.

I am able to get these:
7 KIRO-DT (really good reception)
9 KCTS-DT & KCTS-HD (spotty or not at all)
22 KMYQ-D2 (spotty or not at all)
33 Qubo, Worship, KWBF (decent reception)
42 KYPX, Tube, Lick TV (spotty or not at all)
45 ShopTV, Azteca, Asian, Am One (decent reception)
51 KWOG (decent reception)

Can anyone recommend a good indoor antenna (don't think I can get an outdoor one) and how I could get the other channels like KCPQ?
thanks a bunch!

niharika
The hill to the west is a bad one. It's a 100ft higher than you, but worse, it's absolutely packed with fir trees for almost a mile. I have few antennas on 134th, top of the hill, that barely make 4-5-7 and nothing else. It sounds like you have a south facing window. Indoors is going to be really tough there. If you can get that antenna out on the balcony and face it west, you might have a better shot. Any antenna you try will be an experiment, so a recommendation is kinda useless.
Sorry.
Dan

DanKurts

01-01-07, 01:11 AM

Hello Dan, and all the other Northwesterner on board.
Thought I'd just try and return a little bit of the spirit here and make a couple of simple comments.
Regarding antennas:
I have taken Dan's advice to heart and settled on the Channel Master 4228 and the 7775 preamp and the jointenna for channel 18. After a bit of searching, it became obvious that the best choice that I could find to source these was Warren. Actually the 4228 was on sale, which was icing on the cake. Sadly, I was unable to find the 4228 in the Seattle area, so I do have the worry of damage in shipping, but hopefully, the worst that I'll see
is a bit of bending. Warren's has a strange policy on the jointenna: they only take phone orders for it, so, after one finishes the online purchase of the other items, a call needs to be placed to add the jointenna (I suspect they are trying to reduce returns on a non stocked item).
Also due to your (Dan's) input we've settled on the Pioneer Elite Plasmas. The room is small, so
I.m strongly leaning to the Pro940HD. Although I am curious how the performance of the
Elite compares to the professional line from Pioneer,( I believe that the 1140 would fall in this group). Also, the pricing the on the 940 is all over the place. Standard low pricing with shipping on the internet is around $2600 to $2700. Locally Magnolia is at $3000 and
a bit unwilling to be competitive with the on line guys. Perhaps someone can chime in and offer a suggestion on where to purchase?

Just a general comment regarding my own rather unique situation:
We don't have cable, and although it is available on the road that goes by our place, philosophically I'm not very interested in subscribing. I just can't get past the problem of paying for way too much stuff that I don't what to see.
Even more strangely, we rarely watch OTA broadcast with the sound on, i.e., our usual viewing habbit is to have the TV on in the evening running closed caption with the sound
on Mute, while listening to FM, LPs or CDs on a HiFi "audiophile" tube based system. If you are interested, you can see my web site: vivaldiaudio. And, if you are on the Island, you are invited to stop in for a listening session.
Frankly, I've totally dismissed the surround sound concept for listening to music. I think it is fine for movies, but, I think people do themselves a big disservice to try and use surround sound for music as well. I do believe that 5.1 or 7.1 can be used for satisfactory music reproduction, but the cost of doing so is EXTREME and many times more expensive than what a dedicated 2 channel system can provide for a fraction of the cost. In fact, according to a survey in Stereophile magazine a couple of years ago the averag 2 channel audiophile system was around $18K. So, we really are talking about a multiple of that to achieve similar quality in surround sound. Of course these are just personal options and I only mention them in the spirit of community input.
I hope the coming year finds everyone in good health, spirits and a somewhat more peaceful world.
Lew

Lew
Happy New Year back at ya, and all the goodness with it !

Saw the site. Speaker design looks VERY interesting. Combining TWO folded horns without phasing problems is VERY impressive. Over the years I've built many designs (when I had way more time and energy!). Currently have a ducted port 40 year old design, from England, using Goodman speakers. Not fancy, but I like 'em. Way too big for most people, but at low volume they sound fabulous. Drive them with an old Sansui 30watt amp. Efficency is good enough to drive you out of the room, and it had a hum and noise level below 100db, very quiet. Getting noisy now, after 40 years. My dream amp would be one of the late model McIntosh tube setups, or one of those updated reproductions of the old Sansui AU-111, the B-209
http://www.sansui.us/PG_B209.htm
Heard one years ago, driving a JBL Paragon
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm
WOW!
Got started with speakers helping my dad build his Hi-Fi Carlson box, Electrovoice Tri-Axial, souped up McIntosh 75 amp, Thorens turntable on granite block, forgot what cartridge. We would stay up late, after everyone else went to bed, and listen to jazz in the basement, cranked up, natch!
Yes, we'll definitely have to get together to hear your toys!

Pioneer plasmas.
The commercial versions and the low line Pioneer are different from the Elite. I know they appear to be the same. Every time I've set one up, though, the color and sharpness just wasn't there. The commercial version looks like a Samsung or worse. Where it does look good is in a bright room, connected to a PC, showing Windows. So does the other two, but it does it for a lot less money. Watching TV on it is barely average. Shopping and comparing the other two is a problem, as stores have one or the other, but not both consumer versions. If you've watched the Elite a lot, like I have, and played with the settings, it's much easier to get it tweaked for a particular show or DVD. The regular version just never quite gets it. Using my Avia and Essential test DVD's, as well as watching the local news at 5PM to dial an Elite in is much easier. The regular tends to be all over the map, too, for color, compared to the Elite. ALL TV's vary a lot, because programming does. The Elite just does it much less than the rest. I usually don't say much when setting one up for a customer. Just get it right for their particular tastes. When they're happy with a regular one, I find myself wanting to keep tweaking. With an Elite, I can usually get them to say WOW! And it looks really good to me, too.

Let me know how the install goes.
Call if you have questions
206-794-3993

Dan

DanKurts

01-01-07, 01:56 AM

I did all of the above and all I got was an error on each channel saying "week signal or scrambled". I hope I do not have to get a cable card...

It does ask me what type of signal for cable and the options are hrc, irc, and std.
Which one should I use for digital cable? I have pretty much tried them all...

Thanks for the list! Hope I get to use it soon :)

Temple
You should be able to at least get the basic cable analog channels, 2 through 29. It's standard cable, by the way. Do a scan for everything, analog and digital. If there's an input for Air as well as Cable, try using that, too. If you can't get anything after all that, then you either have no signal or somethings wrong with the set. Have you tried another TV at that location with that cable?
Dan

Temple

01-01-07, 04:33 AM

rdn

01-01-07, 06:04 AM

A lot (most) of the programming on HD channels is from 4:3 source material and the stations add the black pillar bars, actually transmitting 16:9. A lot of the syndicated reruns of shows which may have originally been in HD are like that. It will be transmitted as 720p or 1080i and generally looks better than the equivalent SD channel, however.

Dreamwriter

01-01-07, 03:08 PM

rdn

01-01-07, 09:20 PM

They are both on Queen Anne hill (as is KIRO) but the towers are not adjacent to each other, so a building could block one without affecting the other. I'm in a completely different direction, but also have problems with KOMO and some people have reported KOMO as fine but have difficulties with KING. Have you tried moving the antenna around a bit? Sometimes a small change (even inches) can make a difference.

DanKurts

01-02-07, 12:17 AM

Help, I'm less than 2 miles from KOMO yet can't get it! I'm on the 10th floor of an apartment building on Boren and Pike, facing NorthEast. I've got the Phillips unamplified Silver Sensor, and using that I was able to barely get it jumping from 0 to 13%. The odd thing is I get KING perfectly (40-50%), and antennaweb says they are in the same place!

Am I out of luck, unable to point my antenna straight towards KOMO without going through a few apartments? Or is there a better antenna I could be using, or something else I'm missing?

Thanks!

Dreamwriter
There are other factors in getting reception besides location of the towers. Frequency, antenna radiating pattern and power output, height above sea level, etc, all figure in.
Your main problem is you're NE facing windows. Anything you're getting is from a bounce off of something. A very unreliable source. What is worse, signal is very strong there, so you almost "glow in the dark". Any antenna is going to have a problem dealing with all that. Do NOT amplify it, only makes it worse. As RDN suggested, moving it around can make huge differences. Try keeping it near the window to avoid reflections inside the room. Set the receivers signal strength meter on KOMO, then S-L-O-W-L-Y move it a little, and wait about 10 seconds, move it again, wait ten secs, and so on. The tuner has to decode the signal before it can verify bit error rates and more, and then give a reading of signal quality. If you whip it around thinking it's going to immeadiately sync in, you'll have a heck of a time finding that sweet spot. Don't be surprised if you find a different spot for each channel.
Patience will win out.
Dan

parsox

01-02-07, 01:06 AM

Hello

Just moved from Chesapeake Va
to Silverdale Wa, the Newberry road area and low and behold we can not get cable (due to not enough houses) or satellite (due to trees blocking signal).

I have an Mitsubishi TV with the HDTV tuner integrated and bought a phillips amplified indoor antenna (40 bucks at wal-mart)

I can get fox sometimes then a couple of christian channels from seattle

I was wondering if anyone had tried an antenna called the Lacrosse with any success or does anyone have suggestions for an antenna (we are surrounded by 100 ft trees) or a local installer in the silverdale/bremerton area

thanks for you time

/r
parsons

DanKurts

01-02-07, 01:49 AM

Dan,

So looks like from the list that there is no Discovery HD, MTVHD, INHD and some others that I really like. Do I need to get a cable card to get those channels?

Some of the channels that should be in wide screen are showing up as 4:3. Like 81-1 and 81-2 for instance. They list the info as 1080i 16:9 but it shows up in 4:3 format with black bars on either side of the screen. I made sure that it is in the 16:9 format so not sure what is causing that...

Thanks

Temple
You're correct. The "Premium" HD channels will require a cable card.
Not all programming is in 16:9. When they run a 4:3 show on a HD channel, you will see the black bars on the sides. The TV can stretch the actual 4:3 analog picture, but the HD channel usually won't allow it. Some sets have Zoom options, but that just enlarges it in both directions. The stretch side-side options normally don't work on HD channels. 81-1 is ch13 HD, but if they run regular definition programming, it won't look much different from 80-1, ch13 regular def riding on a digital carrier. Comared to actual ch 13 analog, there's a big difference. As long as you have your receiver and TV set for 16:9, all should look okay.
You will get regular def Discovery on 103-4, but the HD Discovery channel has different programming. One of my favorite channels. The Sunrise program is a great way to wake up in the morning instead of the usual news shows.
Dan

DanKurts

01-02-07, 01:51 AM

parsox

01-02-07, 05:31 AM

parsons
What's your nearest cross street on Newberry road?
Dan

Hey Dan

Outback Ave

Thanks

DanKurts

01-03-07, 02:29 AM

Hey Dan

Outback Ave

Thanks

parsox
You have a hill to the east that's blocking the main channels 4-5-7 and 16. The other channels you're getting are coming through a gap in the hill to the south slightly. Ch13 is due south of you, line of sight. Between the hill, which crests at Eldorado blvd, and all the trees, you're in a bad spot. It might be possible, but it will take some trial and error to find what will work. The Lacross looks like a fancy version of the Winegard Square Shooter. I doubt it will do much for you. I have not tested one, but have tried many other similar style antennas and found them to be only fair, at best. In an easy location, they would probably work fine, but then so would a lot of others.
You could try a big yagi and preamplifier, which will help you get through the trees, but won't do a lot with the hill. You would need to go up a hundred feet to get decent signal. Then there's the problem of signal from the towers. It's not very good to the west of Seattle. Here'a picture of ch4, ABC, viewed from the top of the tower.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18937&rotate=0.00&p0=0.923&p10=0.976&p20=0.998&p25=1.000&p30=0.997&p40=0.984&p50=0.966&p60=0.951&p70=0.942&p80=0.937&p90=0.936&p100=0.937&p110=0.942&p120=0.951&p130=0.966&p140=0.984&p150=0.997&p155=1.000&p160=0.998&p170=0.976&p180=0.923&p190=0.838&p200=0.725&p210=0.593&p220=0.459&p230=0.345&p240=0.276&p250=0.261&p260=0.272&p270=0.280&p280=0.272&p290=0.261&p300=0.276&p310=0.345&p320=0.459&p330=0.593&p340=0.725&p350=0.838&p360=0.923&

The red line is kind of like looking the amount of power in any direction. Notice that at 270 degrees, or the direction to your place, there's only about 28% of the power that goes due east, which is about 93%.
Not a lot of options. I would suggest doing a survey for both antenna and satellite. There might be a way to get through the trees for satellite. It's probably going to be the best chance.
Call if you have questions
Dan
206-794-3993

DonB2

01-03-07, 02:51 PM

DanKurts

01-03-07, 03:41 PM

"The one thing I want to impress on you is what I saw a year ago with my Dads Elite. Running the cable local HD channels, 4-5-7-9 etc through the Elite QAM tuner, AND through the Motorola HD box, showed a huge difference in picture crispness and clarity. On my high end installs since then, I've programmed the remotes to flip to the QAM tuner for them, and back to the cable box input for the rest of the cable HD channels. "

Dankurts,

I have a question. Can a remote such as you mention above be programmed to switch source via a wireless a/b coax switch with the channel up /channel down of the remote?

To be specific. I have a unique situation here in Raleigh, NC where I have most ATSC channels coming in via one antenna feed but I use another antenna to receive the ATSC public broadcasting station "4.1" coming from another direction. Could I use a programmable remote as you describe above to seemlessly channel surf up and down using the up down buttons on the remote? It would need to scroll down from 5.1 on one antenna on the A side of the remote A/B switch to the 4.1 PBS B side of the A/B switch. So the Macro would have to be smart enough to recognise that the last selected station was 5.1 on A side and that the next down channel selection will be 4.1 on B side of A/B switch.

Sorry if this is confusing as I am not a Remote Macro expert.

-DonB2

DonB2
Yes, the remote IR A/B switch is made by a number of different vendors. Easiest place to get it is through Rat Shack.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643&cp=&origkw=antenna+switch&kw=antenna+switch&parentPage=search

Costs about $40, has discrete codes, meaning there's a separate A button and B button. When used with a remote that can learn codes, and can do macro's, it's a snap. I use the Pronto 7500 for my installs

http://www.remotecentral.com/tsu7000/index.html

There are others out there that will do it, too, like the Aurora

http://www.remotecentral.com/mx950/index.html

Then I set up the channels with an icon that runs the macro when pressed. It switches inputs on the TV, switches the A/B antenna control and tunes the actual channel number.
Dan

DonB2

01-03-07, 04:15 PM

DanKurts,

Thanks for the reply. And btw I do have the RS A/B switch so I am a 1/3 of the way there. But I never had it seemlessly integrated into my Pioneer remote which can not do Macros.

Now that you have told me a Pronto can do the Macro I need I will look into one of the remotes you have mentioned.

-DonB2

LewH

01-04-07, 10:01 AM

Hi Dan,
Wow, Goodmans.....I am certainly impressed with your audio choices and experience. I want to put a bit more emphasis on my invitation to stop by and listen when you are on the Island.
Heck, I'll supply lunch, if you have the time and inclination---always enjoy listening with people that are like minded.
Haven't purchased the Elite yet, and am still waiting (probably for another couple of weeks) for the shipment of the antenna stuff from Warrens.
Sincerely,
Lew

bigpoppa206

01-05-07, 02:35 AM

DanKurts

01-05-07, 03:07 AM

Update: looks like we have KMYQ as follows,

96-1 KMYQ 720p
96-2 KMYQ2 (The Tube - Music Videos) 480i

bigpoppa206
I found those, too. And a lot more. I'll try and get that list updated.
The ones I found interesting is the radio stations that come in on a cable box also show up on mine, but they only play for a split second and then silence for a second then repeat again. They were 90-332 through 90-339.
Did you get the same results?
Also, the public channels, like City of Seattle, Fedway, Algona, etc, come in on channels 105-1055, 105-1057 and more, but you can't direct access them from the number pad on the remote. You can go to 105-54, then channel up and they come in. I called Samsung tech support last week, they didn't have an answer, but acknowledged it's a problem. Haven't heard back from them yet.
I did take the receiver to another customers house and gave it a test with a really ugly over air signal, and it pulled in everything. I'm very impressed with it's performance. Have one more tough site to try it on.
As for the cable performance, I did an A/B test on a 63" Fujitsu. The Motorola DVR box versus this one, both running component through a Denon receiver. I have to admit there was very little difference between the two in picture quality. You had to look pretty close to see that the Samsung was hair better. Not sure if the Denon switching added any noise to equalize the net results any, but didn't have time to hookup cables directly to the Fujitsu. It does tell me that the QAM tuner in the Pioneer Elite plasma is doing a really good job, as that comparison made a big difference. I'm sure a lot had to do with the fact the tuner was connected directly to the video section in the plasma. I have another customer with both an Elite and LG plasma, both with QAM tuners. I'm going to compare them to this little Samsung tuner and see wassup.
Dan

1080pixel

01-05-07, 01:25 PM

Can someone recommend an OTA for local HD in the valley area in Sumner/Orting area? I live near the High Cedar Golf Club.

How well does it work for you?

DanKurts

01-05-07, 11:58 PM

Can someone recommend an OTA for local HD in the valley area in Sumner/Orting area? I live near the High Cedar Golf Club.

How well does it work for you?

What's the nearest cross streets?
Dan

1080pixel

01-06-07, 01:39 AM

What's the nearest cross streets?
Dan
I am in Riverbend Estates next to the Puyallup River. 142 ST E

I am looking for specific make/model/type of antenna. Can't have the old style of antenna outside.

DanKurts

01-06-07, 01:54 AM

I am in Riverbend Estates next to the Puyallup River. 142 ST E

I am looking for specific make/model/type of antenna. Can't have the old style of antenna outside.

1080pixel
You're in a bad spot. The hill is in your way. The signal path is blocked at 106th St. SE and 137th Ave E, about two miles away, and goes North from there. It's cable or satellite time.
Dan

DanKurts

01-06-07, 02:10 AM

DirkPitt

01-06-07, 01:59 PM

LewH

01-06-07, 05:53 PM

fruehling

01-06-07, 06:42 PM

DanKurts

01-06-07, 06:44 PM

Hi all...I just moved to Mukilteo and was wondering does anyone gets ota reception in the area? I live at 913 18th st. I have a sonyxbr800 - i think I'd need to get some kind of box because it's probably not hd ready.

thanks for any help!
Bill

DirkPitt
You're in a pretty good spot. No major hills, but trees might be a small factor.
I assume you're looking for HD reception, not analog. A good tuner to pick up would be the Samsung H260F, available at Circuit city or BestBuy
http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalSetTopBox/HDTVTuners/DTB_H260FXAA.asp
Only $179, and far better than the stock Sony tuner that TV came with.
A 4221 antenna would be a good start. It will need to be outside and facing south.
Dan

DanKurts

01-06-07, 06:53 PM

Ok, so I have an Oliva LT37HVS. It's got the DTV tuner built in. I have basic cable. After reading this thread, I have learned that I can get the local HD channels through basic cable into my set.

So today I removed the cable from the analog in connected the cable to the DTV in. I scanned the channels, but I come up with nothing. I noticed that it is only scanning up to channel 69. I saw on Dan's list that all the channels are at 79 and above. There doesn't seem to be any way to force my set/tuner to search above 69 (if that is even the problem). Any ideas?

fruehling
The channels your set is showing are over air, not cable. Not the same frequencies.
What I mentioned only works if you have a QAM tuner (cable card ready). You don't need the cable card for the locals, but without the QAM tuner, you get zip. It's possible to have a QAM tuner and no cable card slot, but haven't seen any TV's with that, yet.
In any case, if your specifications for the set don't list it, then you still can make it work. Just pick up the Samsung tuner I mentioned
http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalSetTopBox/HDTVTuners/DTB_H260FXAA.asp
Available at Circuit City and BestBuy, $179.
Dan

fruehling

01-06-07, 07:03 PM

fruehling
The channels your set is showing are over air, not cable. Not the same frequencies.
What I mentioned only works if you have a QAM tuner (cable card ready). You don't need the cable card for the locals, but without the QAM tuner, you get zip. It's possible to have a QAM tuner and no cable card slot, but haven't seen any TV's with that, yet.
In any case, if your specifications for the set don't list it, then you still can make it work. Just pick up the Samsung tuner I mentioned

Dan

So the DTV-in ATSC tuner is only for OTA? It isn't for cable? That seems odd. If that is the case, then I think I would be better off just getting an antenna for $25 instead of the samsung box for $180, no? I can't help feeling that I am missing something here. Here is a link to the specs for the TV. Maybe you or someone who is more savvy with this can see if I need a box, or if the TV has what I need:

Well, it seems i am not allowed to post a link, so if you could go to amazon and just search LT37HVS, it should bring you right there.

DanKurts

01-06-07, 07:06 PM

Hi Dan, Thought I'd just mention a couple of things. Picked up the Pro-940 Thursday. Yesterday I stopped by Costco and bought their tilting wall mount, which was a Great deal
and easy enough to install. I am surprised that with the current antenna, which was never very good, and after the last wind storm it suffered some serious twisting and bending that
all of the VHF and UHF channels I was getting are coming in fine with the 940. Actually what surprises me most is the quality of the picture, and what surprises me secondly is that I don't even get a glimmer of any of the HDTV programing (thought I might get a whiff of 18).
So, wow the set is amazing and I spend a lot of time with the remote and owners manual
in each hand wondering how to do something, gggg.
Thanks.
Lew

LewH
Haven't set up one of the 940's, going to Monday, though. My 910 doesn't have a distinction between over air analog and HD. A scan will bring in both if it's there. I assume you looked for that, so sounds like your antenna is weak enough that it can't pull in HD. Agree, you should see some ch13 or maybe ch28. Analog will work at far weaker levels.
Enjoy the set, call if you have questions. Definitely want to stop over sometime and check your speaker stuff out. Maybe we could do a survey and do both?
Let me know. I'm just goofing off here.
Going to warm up the plasma, munchies, and get ready to watch the Sea-Chickens give away another game. I file the show under entertainment/comedy.
Dan

DanKurts

01-06-07, 07:19 PM

So the DTV-in ATSC tuner is only for OTA? It isn't for cable? That seems odd. If that is the case, then I think I would be better off just getting an antenna for $25 instead of the samsung box for $180, no? I can't help feeling that I am missing something here. Here is a link to the specs for the TV. Maybe you or someone who is more savvy with this can see if I need a box, or if the TV has what I need:

Well, it seems i am not allowed to post a link, so if you could go to amazon and just search LT37HVS, it should bring you right there.

fruehling
Yes, the ATSC tuner is over air only. The cable companies use a different modulation for their signal which also allows them to scramble it and keep people from getting freebies. However, they are required by law to give you local channels, unscrambled, including the local HD ones. If you want their local HD channels, you don't have to pay extra, but you do have to pay for their tuner/box to see them. It's an extra $10 to $15/mo for that. The newer sets that are cable card ready save that cost. If you want any other HD channels from them, like Showtime, ESPN, Discovery, etc, then you get the cable card from them and they install it, turn it on, and you can get everything, depending on what you want to pay for, of course. No need to have an extra box, and you can hang the TV on the wall with just a power and cable outlet behind it.
Yes, assuming you're in a good area for over air reception, an antenna would get you the same local HD as well. Just plug the antenna in, do the scan, and you have it.
Dan

fruehling

01-06-07, 07:35 PM

would that samsung box you mentioned allow me to get more channels than the antenna would without me getting more than basic cable?

fruehling

01-07-07, 12:00 AM

LewH

Going to warm up the plasma, munchies, and get ready to watch the Sea-Chickens give away another game. I file the show under entertainment/comedy.
Dan

Great ending to the game though! Almost lost it, but we're still alive!

bigpoppa206

01-07-07, 02:15 AM

The ones I found interesting is the radio stations that come in on a cable box also show up on mine, but they only play for a split second and then silence for a second then repeat again. They were 90-332 through 90-339.
Did you get the same results?
Yup! I deleted all those and also some others I found that did the same thing but kept all the Music Choice ones as there was quite a wide array.
Also, the public channels, like City of Seattle, Fedway, Algona, etc, come in on channels 105-1055, 105-1057 and more, but you can't direct access them from the number pad on the remote. You can go to 105-54, then channel up and they come in. I called Samsung tech support last week, they didn't have an answer, but acknowledged it's a problem. Haven't heard back from them yet.
Speaking of Samsung, anyone know if it's possible to program the remote to my TXR2678WH to also work the Samsung set top box, DTB-H260F? I'm in remote hell with one for the TV, one for the box, another for the DVD/VHS player and a 4th for the Pioneer amplifier. Tried the codes in the manual, nothing! Would be nice to lose a couple of remotes but don't have the $$$ for a more high-end solution.

Also DanKurts, I've taken the liberty of transferring the channel listing you upped and pasted it into an Excel spreadsheet. Once the data is mostly cleaned up, everyone using a Sammy tuner can take advantage of it because it's sortable!

bigpoppa206

01-07-07, 02:22 AM

bigpoppa206
Here's the list of cable channels I found on the Samsung tuner. These are all on Comcast. Let me know what you get, or don't. Also found radio or music channels that would come and go, not lock in. Let me know what you get. Channels 112-420 to 112-426, 114-485 to 114-492 and Spanish channels 118-16 to 118-23.
Thanks
DanGot it, will take a look tonight. Seems like all the 93.x, 94.x, 100.x and 101.x channels are reserved for On-Demand. Damn neighbors always fast forward through the good parts!!! PS: I'm in the Lake City area so not sure how much different our line-ups will be; assuming I'm a part of the Comcast Roosevelt area.

DanKurts

01-07-07, 06:11 AM

Yup! I deleted all those and also some others I found that did the same thing but kept all the Music Choice ones as there was quite a wide array.

Speaking of Samsung, anyone know if it's possible to program the remote to my TXR2678WH to also work the Samsung set top box, DTB-H260F? I'm in remote hell with one for the TV, one for the box, another for the DVD/VHS player and a 4th for the Pioneer amplifier. Tried the codes in the manual, nothing! Would be nice to lose a couple of remotes but don't have the $$$ for a more high-end solution.

Also DanKurts, I've taken the liberty of transferring the channel listing you upped and pasted it into an Excel spreadsheet. Once the data is mostly cleaned up, everyone using a Sammy tuner can take advantage of it because it's sortable!

bigpoppa206
I originally did it in an excel sheet, but the forum won't let me post it, so just pasted it into word.
Don't think you can make the remote work the STB. HOwever, there are some learning remotes out there, Sony has one, that are fairly cheap. Take a look at them here, at remote heaven
http://www.remotecentral.com/wn061218.htm
Thanks for checking out the list.
Dan

DanKurts

01-07-07, 06:18 AM

would that samsung box you mentioned allow me to get more channels than the antenna would without me getting more than basic cable?

fruehling
Yes, you get a few more channels. Look at the list and see if they're worth it to you.

It was nice of the Cowboys to give us the game !
A real nail biter, but a lot of fun to watch.

Dan

fruehling

01-07-07, 11:41 AM

fruehling
Yes, you get a few more channels. Look at the list and see if they're worth it to you.

It was nice of the Cowboys to give us the game !
A real nail biter, but a lot of fun to watch.

Dan

So even with Basic Cable I would get all those channels in that .doc and not blocked or scrambled? And I am in Kirkland, so would the lineup there be the same? And is that 103-4 Discovery HD or just Discovery?

Thanks for all the help!

I was going through the list and trying to highlight which channels are ones I wouldn't get through Basic. I got these:

KCTS Plus
KCPQ HD
KMYQ HD
KCTS DT
KCTS Now
KCTS Create
KOMO HD
KCTS HD
KING HD
KONG HD
Weather Plus
KIRO HD
KIRO SD
KMYQ HD
KMYQ Music Videos
On Demand
Movie Plex

I think that's it right? At least for the ones of interest.

sutey

01-07-07, 12:04 PM

fruehling
Yes, you get a few more channels. Look at the list and see if they're worth it to you.

It was nice of the Cowboys to give us the game !
A real nail biter, but a lot of fun to watch.

Dan

DanK-
I'm an HD newbie and this is my first post; just found this forum and you guys seem VERY knowledgable.

Just picked up the 47" Vizio 1080p LCD a couple days ago. I'm in Seattle area, and only subscribe to Comcast limited basic cable ($14/month). The Vizio has the QAM tuner and recognized the locally broadcast HD channels after the initial scan, as you predicted. This is awesome, because I don't plan to spend ~$70/month for full-on HD with box, etc. HOWEVER, while watching the Seahawks game last night on NBC I noticed slight blurring (is this called pixilizing?) on almost every play. It would sort of focus in immediately after the guy got tackled and the movement stopped...

So my question is this: Is it the TV (Vizio vs. higher quality brand, LCD vs. Plasma, slower refresh rate, etc.) or is it because I had the coax cable out of the wall going directly into the TV? Would having digital cable with a DVR box (w/HDMI cable) reduce or illiminate the blurring? Or is it simply the TV? I talked with two friends that have Plasmas during the game, and they didn't see much blurring at all.

Sorry for the long post. Would really appreciate some input.

DanKurts

01-07-07, 07:02 PM

So even with Basic Cable I would get all those channels in that .doc and not blocked or scrambled? And I am in Kirkland, so would the lineup there be the same? And is that 103-4 Discovery HD or just Discovery?

Thanks for all the help!

I was going through the list and trying to highlight which channels are ones I wouldn't get through Basic. I got these:

KCTS Plus
KCPQ HD
KMYQ HD
KCTS DT
KCTS Now
KCTS Create
KOMO HD
KCTS HD
KING HD
KONG HD
Weather Plus
KIRO HD
KIRO SD
KMYQ HD
KMYQ Music Videos
On Demand
Movie Plex

I think that's it right? At least for the ones of interest.

That's pretty much it. Also all the Music Choice, which is not the compressed junk on satellite, and no talking DJ's, either. The Discovery is not HD, regular channel. I don't know all the differences between various areas on Comcast. From what I've seen, they look the same.
Dan

DanKurts

01-07-07, 07:31 PM

DanK-
I'm an HD newbie and this is my first post; just found this forum and you guys seem VERY knowledgable.

Just picked up the 47" Vizio 1080p LCD a couple days ago. I'm in Seattle area, and only subscribe to Comcast limited basic cable ($14/month). The Vizio has the QAM tuner and recognized the locally broadcast HD channels after the initial scan, as you predicted. This is awesome, because I don't plan to spend ~$70/month for full-on HD with box, etc. HOWEVER, while watching the Seahawks game last night on NBC I noticed slight blurring (is this called pixilizing?) on almost every play. It would sort of focus in immediately after the guy got tackled and the movement stopped...

So my question is this: Is it the TV (Vizio vs. higher quality brand, LCD vs. Plasma, slower refresh rate, etc.) or is it because I had the coax cable out of the wall going directly into the TV? Would having digital cable with a DVR box (w/HDMI cable) reduce or illiminate the blurring? Or is it simply the TV? I talked with two friends that have Plasmas during the game, and they didn't see much blurring at all.

Sorry for the long post. Would really appreciate some input.

sutey
That's hard to say. I normally run antenna for locals here. For testing the new Samsung box, I ran the cable through it's QAM tuner. I didn't notice blurring on my 50" plasma. I didn't leave it on cable HD that long, but it looked okay. On other plasma's hooked up that way it looked okay. I'm not familiar with your brand, so can't comment on it's capabilities. I can say I've never liked LCD's, for that very reason, as well as off angle viewing changing color, their yellowish whites and faded blacks. For small screens, 20" and under, they're fine. Quality isn't that big an issue. The larger they get, though, the more pronounced the problems. Going straight into the TV's tuner is about as pure as you're going to get. If it blurs there, it will certainly do it with any external device, cable box or DVD.
You could try a box out from them, and if it doesn't improve, take it back. They do pro-rate useage.
I did watch the game, but on antenna, and saw no blurring. And I usually notice it right off. One of the bad things of being an old service tech, you can't turn off the looking for flaws. I was listening to ch9's Soundstage last night, and it kept breaking up in sound only on my satellite and over air, switched to cable, same thing. Obviously their problem, but drives me nuts. Had to turn it to another station. It's possible Comcast had problems on your signal, but since your friends didn't notice it, I would put my money on the fact your set is just not that fast a display. That's one of the differences between the low priced brands and the good stuff. Some companies actually advertise the latency of the LCD's and are striving for faster ones. They put a number on it like 6 milliseconds or something similar. I don't pay it much attention, as they still have other problems. I still recommend plasma's, or save your money for another month or two and get a good plasma. Well worth the wait.

Dan

bigpoppa206

01-07-07, 09:17 PM

HOWEVER, while watching the Seahawks game last night on NBC I noticed slight blurring (is this called pixilizing?) on almost every play. It would sort of focus in immediately after the guy got tackled and the movement stopped...
Actually this exact topic is being discussed in the Seattle Comcast thread. It's called macroblocking and this is what I dug up from another site:

"Macroblocking is a phenomena that occurs regularly with HDTV broadcasts, although some material will enhance it’s detrimental effects more than others. It’s particularly noticeable in action movies with lots of fast moving images and bright saturated colors. Anytime something movies quickly on screen it’s likely to suffer from macroblocking on HDTV no matter what kind of movie or TV show. Macroblocking occurs because the high definition images are compressed in Mpeg2 so they can be distributed to your television by cable and satellite TV providers. An HD stream can contain up over 1.3 Gb/sec of information that needs to be compressed (using MPEG) to pass through to cable and satellite TV subscribers. When the compressed video (and audio) reaches the player, such as your set top box, it needs to be uncompressed to your TV’s video input. The upper limit of that decompression rate is 19.4 Mb/sec (with compression factor of more than 60).

Perhaps there is some element of macroblocking that can be attributed to the digitization process before it is ever compressed into mpeg2. But any HDTV show or movie will look this bad while images are moving quickly on screen. I can only hope the implementation of the HD optical disc formats (Blu-Ray and HD DVD) have something better in store than Mpeg2."

fruehling

01-08-07, 09:46 PM

It's called macroblocking and this is what I dug up from another site:

"Macroblocking occurs because the high definition images are compressed in Mpeg2 so they can be distributed to your television by cable and satellite TV providers. "

So wait a minute. Does this mean that OTA HD broadcasts are actually superior to cable HD???

horseflesh

01-08-07, 10:34 PM

That quote is a little misleading. Even OTA HD is compressed with MPG2. The problem is cable reduces the bitrate.

Anyway, yes, OTA can look superior to cable HD.

DanKurts

01-09-07, 12:42 AM

That quote is a little misleading. Even OTA HD is compressed with MPG2. The problem is cable reduces the bitrate.

Anyway, yes, OTA can look superior to cable HD.

horseflesh
Absoltively correct. And it looks better than satellite, too.
Dan

Karyk

01-09-07, 10:11 AM

I've not noticed a difference between OTA and Comcast HD.

LewH

01-09-07, 11:12 AM

DanKurts

01-09-07, 01:17 PM

Hi Dan,
Thought I'd just make a casual "hmmm, this is interesting" comment regarding the new PR0-940. As I mentioned previously, so far I haven't received the Channel Master 4228 and the other goodies associated with it. The 940 is just hooked up to the old beat up twisted
and abused antenna.
Anyway, what I find terribly surprising, but on reflection makes perfect sense, is the unbelievable visual quality of the commercials (and this is on VHF). I've never, on any other set, noticed how tweaked the commercials are for instantaneous visual impact. Food and Babes are the ones that seem to really get tweaked to the max to grap one's attention........
Regards,
Lew

LewH
So, ..... Lew. Gettin' a little lonely on the island ?!?!
I agree about the picture. It's what I try to impress on people. The Pioneer really is worth the extra bucks. My folks keep calling me up to "...quick, change the channel to Discovery HD or ....." They're like little kids. Same thing when they went to color TV back in 69. I just delivered and setup a 940 last night, did the air scan, which DID get the HD as well as analog, no additional settings required before scan, and it pulled in two channels that my meter said were running on fumes. Very impressed. They also had been watching a 25 year old Trinitron Sony, so they were loving the picture.
Let me know if you need help.
Dan

DanKurts

01-09-07, 01:38 PM

I've not noticed a difference between OTA and Comcast HD.

KaryK
It depends on what you're using for the OTA tuner, and what TV your watching it on. Even, sometimes, whether your using HDMI or component. The biggest difference I've seen is on the Pioneer Elite's, with the QAM tuners. Comparing cable local HD through the cable box and component or HDMI, and cable local HD through the built in QAM, big difference. Much better through QAM. Comparing same cable box HD to OTA built in tuner, also big difference. At my home, older Huges E86 through component for OTA, to cable through the box, old Panasonic plasma, not much difference, but still better. On my customers new Fujitsu 63", cable box to the new Samsung OTA tuner, both component, being switched by new Denon 3807, dead even. Both looked identical. Could be the Denon took some of the shine off the picture, and didn't compare HDMI, which both had. Didn't have the time to fool around much.
My overall general opinion, after changing people back and forth between cable/OTA or satellite/OTA, antenna always looks better. Sometimes big difference, sometimes little, but always better.
Your mileage may vary!
Dan

LewH

01-09-07, 01:43 PM

Hi Dan,
I'd love to have you come over take a look at the set, listen to speakers and have some lunch.
How about we wait until after I get the Channel Master from Warren, unless you'd rather
just come over now and listen and have lunch, gggg.
Lew

Rico66

01-09-07, 01:59 PM

KaryK
It depends on what you're using for the OTA tuner, and what TV your watching it on. Even, sometimes, whether your using HDMI or component. The biggest difference I've seen is on the Pioneer Elite's, with the QAM tuners. Comparing cable local HD through the cable box and component or HDMI, and cable local HD through the built in QAM, big difference. Much better through QAM. Comparing same cable box HD to OTA built in tuner, also big difference. At my home, older Huges E86 through component for OTA, to cable through the box, old Panasonic plasma, not much difference, but still better. On my customers new Fujitsu 63", cable box to the new Samsung OTA tuner, both component, being switched by new Denon 3807, dead even. Both looked identical. Could be the Denon took some of the shine off the picture, and didn't compare HDMI, which both had. Didn't have the time to fool around much.
My overall general opinion, after changing people back and forth between cable/OTA or satellite/OTA, antenna always looks better. Sometimes big difference, sometimes little, but always better.
Your mileage may vary!
Dan
I compared OTA and QAM at some stage on my tv and it was dead even. You're right that all the additional equipment definitely has an impact, but the discussion here was about the signal itself.
Did anybody actually measure the bitrate for cable? I was under the impression that comcast does not compress more than OTA in our area. It pretty much seems that they pass on the same signal that is used for OTA transmission, which includes the same artefacts for KING, KIRO etc that are caused by the OTA sub channels. Note that the tv stations could provide them theoretically with even better signals (higher bitrates) for these channels, since the bandwidth limitation that's caused by the subchannels does not apply to cable.

DirkPitt

01-09-07, 07:06 PM

hdsea

01-09-07, 10:54 PM

DanKurts

01-10-07, 04:10 AM

Dan,

Thanks for the help! Living in Mukilteo I wasn't sure. I did search high and low, called around and online for the Samsung tuner you suggested and EVERYBODY is out of stock. Even best buy wouldn't order one for me. Is there an alternative tuner I could get, or do you know where I can get this Samsung model you suggested? It does sound like the one I'd want to get.

thanks,
Bill aka DirkPitt

Bill
You're welcome.
There's nothing else out there. I've looked for my customers. A good tuner at a good price, too.
There's a bunch of places on the web, just do a search for Samsung DTBH260F. Here's a few

http://www.**************.com/scripts/site/site_product.php3?source=froogle&id=26386

http://www.nextag.com/samsung-dtb_-_h260f/search-html

http://www.*******.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=34596

http://www.bestsaleprices.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1802

Let us know how it works.
Dan

DanKurts

01-10-07, 04:20 AM

Hi folks looking for a recommendation on a OTA HD antenna for the shoreline area. My cross street is NE 160th & 5th Ave NE.

I currently have DTV with the H-20 receiver feeding a my Pioneer plasma via HDMI. I'm currently using a cheap TERK indoor set top antenna, It sort of works, I can pickup HD channels 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 16, and 22 but I lose the signal every now and than depending on the weather, which is kind of irritating while trying to watch the football games, and I can't get 13 in HD at all

I was thinking about the Winegard SS-2000, But I'm not sure if this is the way to go... Any suggestions would be great..

Thanks

hdsea
The SS2000 is junk. Have one sitting in my garage in the POS pile of others that didn't make the grade. The Channel Master 4221 mounted outside should do it for you. You're in a good location. The fact the little indoor is working so well confirms it. Once outside, just point it south, and they should all come in. You can even mount it on the side of the house, if you have a good open area, nothing close by to block it.
Dan

DanKurts

01-10-07, 05:03 AM

I compared OTA and QAM at some stage on my tv and it was dead even. You're right that all the additional equipment definitely has an impact, but the discussion here was about the signal itself.
Did anybody actually measure the bitrate for cable? I was under the impression that comcast does not compress more than OTA in our area. It pretty much seems that they pass on the same signal that is used for OTA transmission, which includes the same artefacts for KING, KIRO etc that are caused by the OTA sub channels. Note that the tv stations could provide them theoretically with even better signals (higher bitrates) for these channels, since the bandwidth limitation that's caused by the subchannels does not apply to cable.

Rico66
Up until last summer, I didn't have a meter that would read the actual bit rate on cable. I've played with it some with my new meter, but haven't had the time for a lot of testing. Some receivers show it, but can't say how accurate it is.

What I have compared many times, is the various combinations of cable, satellite and OTA. Many of my installs have high end sytems (multiple plasmas, projectors, and all three sources). Also, having done repairs and alignments on TV's and other video equipment for decades has let me see what happens when video looses it's higher frequencies, and, how that affects the final picture. And how the display itself can soften a perfectly good signal. Then there was 12 years of PC and network support at the Lazy B, which let me see how far you could push/compress/uncompress video, specially in big conferencing displays.

What I've learned and seen is there's theory, and then there's real world about how well something should look, and actually does. I agree, sometimes, with some systems, there's no difference. With the good stuff, or right combinations, big difference, very noticeable.

I can't say why cable chooses to keep the bitrate down, but would assume there's a trade off of bandwidth (read money) for what they perceive the customer won't notice anyway. One would think they could do more, since they have so much bandwidth to work with. The cost of rebuilding the system, so they could use all that, is probably a good reason they've held off. What's going to be interesting is AT&T and Verizon, with their fiber optic systems and HUGE bandwidth, will soon force the cable guys to do it anyway. I have seen the Verizon FiOS, very clean signal, including awesome analog.

Hang in there. Satellites are expanding, cable will have to upgrade, soon, and maybe the Local over air crowd will step up with higher bit rates and fewer sub channels, just to stay competitive.
Things are looking betterer all the time!
Dan

Karyk

01-10-07, 10:14 AM

Note that the tv stations could provide them theoretically with even better signals (higher bitrates) for these channels, since the bandwidth limitation that's caused by the subchannels does not apply to cable.

But I think that is just theoretical--I don't think they actually feed the cable system anything better than what they send out OTA.

Karyk

01-10-07, 10:19 AM

KaryK
It depends on what you're using for the OTA tuner, and what TV your watching it on. Even, sometimes, whether your using HDMI or component.

My comparisions were all done with my HTPC for OTA and a Comcast box for cable, and done over a year ago.

Now it's actually harder for me to compare because my HTPC has one OTA tuner and two QAM tuners, and it's not that easy to figure out which is doing what, and as far as I know, impossible to determine for recordings. About the best I could do for recorded material is see if I notice a big difference in file size, but I'm not sure whether the cable recordings might have other channels recorded--I don't think they do.

hdsea

01-10-07, 11:43 AM

hdsea
The SS2000 is junk. Have one sitting in my garage in the POS pile of others that didn't make the grade. The Channel Master 4221 mounted outside should do it for you. You're in a good location. The fact the little indoor is working so well confirms it. Once outside, just point it south, and they should all come in. You can even mount it on the side of the house, if you have a good open area, nothing close by to block it.
Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the info...

rdn

01-10-07, 12:47 PM

Rico66

01-10-07, 01:55 PM

Hang in there. Satellites are expanding, cable will have to upgrade, soon, and maybe the Local over air crowd will step up with higher bit rates and fewer sub channels, just to stay competitive.
Things are looking betterer all the time!
Dan
I'm not sure whether this expansion would really improve quality. It seems to be rather quantity driven. I agree, fiber might indeed be the one that should be able to deliver better quality (but it probably takes a couple of years until most people will be able to get that).

Kelly From KOMO

01-10-07, 04:26 PM

Hi folks looking for a recommendation on a OTA HD antenna for the shoreline area. My cross street is NE 160th & 5th Ave NE.

I currently have DTV with the H-20 receiver feeding a my Pioneer plasma via HDMI. I'm currently using a cheap TERK indoor set top antenna, It sort of works, I can pickup HD channels 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 16, and 22 but I lose the signal every now and than depending on the weather, which is kind of irritating while trying to watch the football games, and I can't get 13 in HD at all

I was thinking about the Winegard SS-2000, But I'm not sure if this is the way to go... Any suggestions would be great..

Thanks
HDSE,

I live very close to where you are and have no problem with HD-OTA reception, (155th). I just have a good old Radio Shack UHF/VHF with a rotator on the roof, passive spiltter, to a new Panasonic 50" plasma with the new ATSC/Quam card. I get all the DT stations except KCPQ, because there is a hill in the way. Just make sure any splitters are good out to 2Ghz, and good coax not from RS.

Good Luck!

Kelly from KOMO

DanKurts

01-11-07, 02:15 AM

A few days ago I switched my Directv H20 receiver for a HR20 DVR. My OTA reception of 9, 11, and 22 is excellent, as before, but I find that 4 and 5 are much poorer (4 has always been a problem). I know that the H20 (made by Samsung) had an excellent tuner and that probably accounts for the difference. 5-2 (weather plus) always came in pretty good, however. Channel 7 is still fairly good.

What is really strange is that last night 4-1 came in with an excellent picture, as did 5-2. I watched the 11 PM KOMO news without any picture breakup, but the channel is completely gone again this morning.

There are a number of trees nearby, in the direction of Queen Anne, but I can't figure out why the picture would have improved last night when things were somewhat wet and bad again now that it is dry. There was only a dusting of snow here, so I doubt that is an issue.

rdn
First thing that comes to mind is thick stands of Fir trees, with long heavy branches that hang lower when wet. It could be just enough signal is getting through to work. When dry, the limbs raise up a little.
What everyone tends to forget is the nature of HD signals. You could actually have very ugly signals on ALL your channels, but your tuner might be able to handle most of them. When it can tune in a channel, it's ALWAYS going to look great, but it could be hanging on by it's fingernails. A little change in environment, gone completely.
Dan