Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 23

BIslander

04-18-07, 01:10 PM

I thought that KOMO's newscasts were in HD.
Most people do and the trade press continues to publish articles to that effect. KOMO is 16x9 and looks quite good. But, it's definitely softer than real HD. Here's what KOMO said in an email response to an inquiry sent prior to this week's switch to HD at KING:
----
Here’s what we do at KOMO 4. We create all of our elements in wide-screen digital, which is not HD, but is much better than traditional analog television. We upconvert and broadcast all of those elements in HD. The end product is such a stunning improvement that many of the manufacturers of pure HD equipment haven’t found a market for their HD products, yet, because HD is still relatively expensive.

Our studio cameras are HD cameras, but our switcher is not, therefore we use the widescreen digital output of our cameras for News. KING 5 has the same situation, but chooses to switch to native HD when only the studio camera is on the air (no name keys or graphics). That’s why the signal keeps switching from upconverted 4x3 shots to widescreen HD. We did something similar when we first began broadcasting in HD, but decided that the quality difference was so slight compared to the jarring effect of switching between 4x3 and 16x9.

Creating TV in HD still takes about 4 times the amount of storage space for gathering field video or editing. Compression schemes are improving, and we probably won’t go to HD field production and editing for approximately 5 years. Our next step will be to gather more of our news on computer chips and ingest it directly to servers for editing and playback.

KOMO 4 has worked hard to put a high quality widescreen product on the air that you can enjoy in HD, but it will still be a few years before it is HD from end to end.

Thanks,

Don LaCombe
Director of Operations
KOMO 4, Seattle

rdn

04-18-07, 10:32 PM

Maybe the wrong subforum to ask but it is OTA.

How long may a coax cable be from an antenna to the tv? I would like to experiment and place an antenna upstairs and TEMPORARILY run it through a room, down a staircase and then to the tv. I'd estimate, at least, 50 feet. It might be more direct if reception appears to work if I pull wire through a few walls and floors. Oh, and would I have to add the "plugs/sockets" to the ends or can one find a finished coax of varying lengths?

Anyone local (Seattle) sell a reasonable (cost and utility) antenna? I saw someone mention the 4221 Antenna in a post here.

Thanks in advance

You should be in good shape at 50 feet. The loss of RG-6 is less than 5 dB/100 ft even at the upper end of the UHF band. I'm currently using about 90 feet, although I plan to reroute it to shorten the run.

I think Radio Shack has fairly long cables with connectors installed, but don't know the exact lengths available. I bought a compression tool and connectors from Home Depot for ~$20.

I bought my UHF antenna (Winegard PR4400, similar to the 4221) on-line at http://www.starkelectronic.com. Radio Shack has some fairly good ones (but not all stores carry them).

allen98311

04-18-07, 10:52 PM

Most people do and the trade press continues to publish articles to that effect. KOMO is 16x9 and looks quite good. But, it's definitely softer than real HD. Here's what KOMO said in an email response to an inquiry sent prior to this week's switch to HD at KING:
----
Here’s what we do at KOMO 4. We create all of our elements in wide-screen digital, which is not HD, but is much better than traditional analog television. We upconvert and broadcast all of those elements in HD. The end product is such a stunning improvement that many of the manufacturers of pure HD equipment haven’t found a market for their HD products, yet, because HD is still relatively expensive.

Our studio cameras are HD cameras, but our switcher is not, therefore we use the widescreen digital output of our cameras for News. KING 5 has the same situation, but chooses to switch to native HD when only the studio camera is on the air (no name keys or graphics). That’s why the signal keeps switching from upconverted 4x3 shots to widescreen HD. We did something similar when we first began broadcasting in HD, but decided that the quality difference was so slight compared to the jarring effect of switching between 4x3 and 16x9.

Creating TV in HD still takes about 4 times the amount of storage space for gathering field video or editing. Compression schemes are improving, and we probably won’t go to HD field production and editing for approximately 5 years. Our next step will be to gather more of our news on computer chips and ingest it directly to servers for editing and playback.

KOMO 4 has worked hard to put a high quality widescreen product on the air that you can enjoy in HD, but it will still be a few years before it is HD from end to end.

Thanks,

Don LaCombe
Director of Operations
KOMO 4, Seattle

OK, Thankyou.

Whidbey

04-19-07, 03:59 PM

I finally purchased a receiver for getting digital TV signals and am looking for some advice. FWIW, it's a Sony HD200. I found it for $10 on craigslist, so I bought it just to see which stations I could get, rather then paying $180 for the Samsung.

I live in south Marysville, up on a hill with an unobstructed view towards the south and northwest. I can pick up the following stations perfectly:
NBC (5.1)
CBS (7.1)
Channel 12.1 (from Bellingham, not sure what the station ID is)
FOX (13.1, I can get this full strength no matter what way my antenna is pointed)
20.1
22.1

The following is the list of stations I can receive, but are too choppy to watch.
ABC (4.1)
KONG (16.1)
33.1 (Unsure what the station ID is)

I was hoping I would be able to pick up PBS and maybe some Canadian stations as well, but I can't get their digital signals at all.

The antenna I have is a 73" radio shack model, and I have a rotator.

Can anyone give me some advice how I might be able to clearly tune all of the channels listed above? Should I wait until the new year and buy a brand new receiver? I really don't want to spend $180 for the Samsung. Would a bigger antenna help? Would a pre-amp help?

Thanks

James

Budget_HT

04-19-07, 08:45 PM

Whidbey,
If you furnish some cross streets near your house, quarque or Dan Kurts might check their topo programs to evaluate your reception opportunities and obstacles.

Chances are, they will suggest that moving your antenna even a few inches (not just rotate but move the mast) can make a big difference at UHF frequencies. If you have the means of moving the antenna around a bit, you may ultimately find a sweet spot for your reception.

Whidbey

04-19-07, 10:45 PM

My address is 6105 76th Ave NE, Marysville.

DanKurts

04-20-07, 01:47 AM

My address is 6105 76th Ave NE, Marysville.

Whidbey
You're in a decent area. The fact you're getting some channels okay with your existing antenna confirms it. The HD 200 receiver is not that swift. I own one, and have seen many during installs. This also points to a fairly adequate setup.
You really could do several things, any/all would help. I'm assuming your antenna is a VHF/UHF model. The UHF part is where the HD channels are, and yours is not that great. I'll also bet you need the VHF part for other TV's in the house, so changing out the antenna for a bigger/better one is probably out. A preamp might help, and is easy to add. Use a Channel Master 7777. It will boost both bands. Most of all the local channels broadcast on HD carriers, so if you didn't need the VHF analog for other TV's, using a 4228 antenna, available at Fry's, instead of your current one, might just work well enough by itself. You can always add a preamp later. Use a 7775 in that case.
Dan

saywhat

04-20-07, 04:22 AM

I finally purchased a receiver for getting digital TV signals and am looking for some advice. FWIW, it's a Sony HD200. I found it for $10 on craigslist, so I bought it just to see which stations I could get, rather then paying $180 for the Samsung.

James

Hi James, been thinking about getting Sony HD200 so i can record ota hd to sd dvd player. i have a few questions -
does it require any access card or directv subscription?
and does it output in 720p over component?
does guide or timer work? - getting greedy here hah!
how easy is it to setup?
sorry for hijacking the thread - its just that i can't seem to get this info anywhere else.

thanks in advance - Seth

Whidbey

04-20-07, 11:07 AM

Hi James, been thinking about getting Sony HD200 so i can record ota hd to sd dvd player. i have a few questions -
does it require any access card or directv subscription?
and does it output in 720p over component?
does guide or timer work? - getting greedy here hah!
how easy is it to setup?
sorry for hijacking the thread - its just that i can't seem to get this info anywhere else.

thanks in advance - Seth

Seth;
I believe the HD200 requires an access card to function. I haven't pulled the one that came with mine out to test it without so I cannot say for sure. I do know that it definitely does not require a subscription. I do not subscribe. You can set the HD200 up to receive signals off the antenna only.
The guide requires a subscription. Also, when you press the "display" button, it just says "regularly scheduled program" or something like that. It does not decode the EPG data like other OTA receivers.
I haven't tried the timer. I'm hoping my DVD recorders IR blaster will work with this box.
It's super easy to set up. The remote even has a help key and pretty much all the info in the manual is available onscreen.
For full specs on the HD200, do a search for Sony HD200 manual on google. That will tell you all the resolutions it's capable of.

James

Whidbey

04-20-07, 01:45 PM

Thanks for the advice Dan!

Whidbey
You're in a decent area. The fact you're getting some channels okay with your existing antenna confirms it. The HD 200 receiver is not that swift. I own one, and have seen many during installs. This also points to a fairly adequate setup.
You really could do several things, any/all would help. I'm assuming your antenna is a VHF/UHF model. The UHF part is where the HD channels are, and yours is not that great. I'll also bet you need the VHF part for other TV's in the house, so changing out the antenna for a bigger/better one is probably out. A preamp might help, and is easy to add. Use a Channel Master 7777. It will boost both bands. Most of all the local channels broadcast on HD carriers, so if you didn't need the VHF analog for other TV's, using a 4228 antenna, available at Fry's, instead of your current one, might just work well enough by itself. You can always add a preamp later. Use a 7775 in that case.
Dan

saywhat

04-20-07, 02:15 PM

thanks James - found manual at sony website :D It states that there is a front display - does it display the channel number?

Now all I have to make sure is if it works without card.

Seth;
I believe the HD200 requires an access card to function. I haven't pulled the one that came with mine out to test it without so I cannot say for sure.

Whidbey

04-20-07, 07:05 PM

thanks James - found manual at sony website :D It states that there is a front display - does it display the channel number?

Now all I have to make sure is if it works without card.

Yes, it displays the channel number. I pulled the access card from mine and it didn't seem to affect the operation, even after I powered it on and off.

James

Tweak48

04-21-07, 01:01 PM

I noticed that KSTW 11 is doing the Mariner game this evening. In spite of having HD broadcast and sat receivers I never have seen a Mariner game in HD (thanks Fox Sports NW :mad: :mad: :mad: )

Any chance we will get it today on KSTW?????

And dare I ask, will we get it in 16X9 instead of the crummy 4X3 format? :confused:

brownnet

04-21-07, 01:47 PM

KSTW has repeatedly said that they won't have Mariners in HD this year.

Rico66

04-21-07, 01:51 PM

It's OK that the Mariners are in SD the way they are playing :D

Tweak48

04-21-07, 02:20 PM

KSTW has repeatedly said that they won't have Mariners in HD this year.

Thanks for the tip. I thumped KSTW pointing out I no longer own any NTSC sets, and NTSC Mariner games look really bad on 106 inch screens.

No HD, no watch I told them. Time to join the 21st century.

Think they care?? :mad: :mad: :mad:

rdn

04-21-07, 02:59 PM

I've seen several of the FSNW HD broadcasts on Directv. Unfortunately it doesn't help the Mariners play any better.

Tweak48

04-21-07, 04:59 PM

I've seen several of the FSNW HD broadcasts on Directv. Unfortunately it doesn't help the Mariners play any better.

I don't think Dish does FSN in HD, but I am encouraged to hear DirectTV does.

Budget_HT

04-22-07, 04:11 AM

I've seen several of the FSNW HD broadcasts on Directv. Unfortunately it doesn't help the Mariners play any better.
MPEG-2 or MPEG-4?

rdn

04-22-07, 05:30 PM

Mostly MPEG4 on channel 96 (which is only on part time, spotbeamed, when there is a FSNW HD broadcast available). It is for home games only (when carried by FSNW). Sometimes it also shows up on channel 95, which is MPEG2 national beam from either 110 or 119 (I'm not sure which). That channel is used for a variety of purposes (and seems to share bandwidth with PPV movies and a variety of other things). I suspect that when Fox Sports has a full-time HD feed we will see FSNW in HD as a permanent assignment (this has been done with some of the non-Fox sports channels in other areas).

tako8

04-29-07, 02:39 PM

tako8
The 7775 preamp is what I use 98% of the time. I suspect you may have other problems. That area is notorious for chopping up signal. You're going through about 3 miles of heavy Fir trees. It's not just gain, but you need ALL of the signal for a specific channel to get there at the same time. When I look at signals around there on my meter, there almost always ugly, to some degree. You're also on the backside of a small hill, which doesn't help. The 4228 is good for gain, but lousy for directionality. That's where yagi style antennas work better. Since you already have a rotor, you could try a 4248, my fav for tough tree areas. Leave the preamp alone for now. Moving the setup to another location, even 6 inches away can also make or break reception.
Dan

Dan
Thanks for the advice. I finally got a 4248. I tried going through Fry's locally. They told me they'd order one for me, but after 4 weeks, I gave up on them and ordered one from online. Those are hard to find. A lot of online stores had them on backorder. It really has impoved my signal for all channels but ABC. I tried different places and different directions with my rotator, but on windy days, the signal is pretty choppy. I'm pretty much out of luck aren't I for channel 4?

DanKurts

04-30-07, 12:06 PM

Dan
Thanks for the advice. I finally got a 4248. I tried going through Fry's locally. They told me they'd order one for me, but after 4 weeks, I gave up on them and ordered one from online. Those are hard to find. A lot of online stores had them on backorder. It really has impoved my signal for all channels but ABC. I tried different places and different directions with my rotator, but on windy days, the signal is pretty choppy. I'm pretty much out of luck aren't I for channel 4?

tako8
That's one of the problems with all the trees. They can act like a giant frequency filter. There probably is a sweet spot, but without a signal analyzer, it's tough to find. Did you use a 7775 preamp with that? I found more than half the time in your area one was needed.
Dan

stoked

05-01-07, 04:24 AM

andy.s.lee

05-01-07, 07:22 AM

Hi all,

Just moved to Seattle from Vancouver (well wife actually). We're renting a place in Juanita here on googlemaps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&om=1&hl=en&z=16&ll=47.707768,-122.212214&spn=0.00605,0.010557&msid=108566309854319003914.0000011246b1b36b37659&msa=0) facing almost dead-on NW on the second floor. We're new to OTA HDTV since we only got 2 channels in Vancouver both not worth the trouble. I checked AntennaWeb.org and it looks like I may be SOL, most of the HD channels are SW or SE.

Antennweb shows the following channels for "easy multidirectional" reception:

* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 197° 7.7 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 197° 7.8 36
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 213° 8.3 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 215° 8.4 39
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 213° 8.4 38
* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 197° 7.7 41

Do you think I'd be able to receive anything with an indoor multidirectional? Pretty sure my building doesn't allow outdoor antennas. If someone could recommend a good indoor antenna, I'd appreciate it as well. TIA.m
If your coordinates are correct, then you may be in luck. Since it looks like you'll be able to clear the hills on either side of you and have a line-of-sight shot at the downtown transmitters (see attached coverage map), this should leave you with some pretty good signal strength. There's a good chance that the signals will be strong enough for decent indoor reception (see attached radar plot, longer bars mean stronger signal).

People have generally had good results with this antenna (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) for indoor reception. It's fairly cheap and easy to try, plus you can return it if you don't like the results.

With this kind of antenna, you'll probably be able to receive channels indoors down to about -70 dBm (look under "Rx_dBm" on the radar plot), which is pretty much everything antennaweb gave you. If you want to get KCPQ (FOX), it's also within range, but you'll probably need a rooftop antenna to get it.

FYI, the FCC provides rules that protect consumer's rights to put up over-the-air reception devices (see the FCC's FAQ (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html) on the subject). As long as you follow the FCC's guidelines, no landlord, HOA, city ordinances, or other entity can restrict your right to install an antenna or dish (with the exception of a few very special cases, e.g., historical landmarks).

Best regards,
Andy

stoked

05-01-07, 12:54 PM

derbeck

05-01-07, 02:17 PM

DanKurts

05-02-07, 02:55 AM

Thanks Andy! Sounds promising. I didn't realize the FCC allows us to put up OTA antennas. I'll have to look over my rental agreement and talk to the management. I'll give that indoor antenna a try. Thanks again.

stoked
You might want to read those FCC rules very carefully, and ask your landlord. Balconies are okay, but not the roof, which is where you need to put an antenna to get Seattle. Note the wording that talks about drilling holes through the wall, like from the balcony inside. And check with your landlord about attaching anything to the balcony or building. You can bolt a small tripod and mast on a piece of plywood, with a concrete block to hold it down, as none of this is attached.
A Silver Sensor is not going to do much in your situation indoors. You may pickup some reflections, though, so it never hurts to try. Do NOT use an amplified version. It will help if you can set it out by the balcony railing pointed SW. If you manage to get something, there are some special super thin coax cable adapters that are made to go in window openings or sliding door channels, getting around the problem of holes through the wall.
What would really help is to see if another unit in the complex becomes available that has a view SW. Then the little Sensor would work great, set near the window.
And be sure to hit the Spuds Fish-N-Chips down the street. One of my many vices, good stuff!
Dan

DanKurts

05-02-07, 02:57 AM

I get great OTA reception from 10 miles NE of Everett. I have a RadioShack 17 element HDTV only antenna up about 40 feet on a tower. I get about 25 digital stations with about 10 hidef, including all the major stations.

derbeck
What are your cross streets? It would be good to know so that others near you might have an idea of what's possible.
Dan

stoked

05-04-07, 02:32 PM

A Silver Sensor is not going to do much in your situation indoors. You may pickup some reflections, though, so it never hurts to try. Do NOT use an amplified version. It will help if you can set it out by the balcony railing pointed SW. If you manage to get something, there are some special super thin coax cable adapters that are made to go in window openings or sliding door channels, getting around the problem of holes through the wall.

So getting even the close OTA channels is unlikely with a silver sensor inside? Dang. I guess I'll have to try cable, is comcast basic really 40bux? I thought basic should be around $13/month.

Budget_HT

05-04-07, 02:49 PM

Comcast "Basic" is about $40, but "Limited Basic" is around $13.

With Limited Basic, you get digital versions of channels available OTA. Those digital channels are placed in real channel slots that tend to be rearranged frequently, but some folks have reported seeing PSIP data come through to enable their TV or HD receiver to identify the logical channels like 4.1 for KOMO-DT, etc.

DanKurts

05-05-07, 12:21 AM

So getting even the close OTA channels is unlikely with a silver sensor inside? Dang. I guess I'll have to try cable, is comcast basic really 40bux? I thought basic should be around $13/month.

stoked
If you have a Cable Card ready TV with a built in QAM tuner, you can get basic cable for about $13/mo, and the local Seattle HD channels will come in. Different numbers than you're used to, but you can figure out who's who in no time. You won't need a cable box or cable card. If you want other HD cable channels, then you will have to step up. If your set is Not cable card ready, or doesn't have a QAM tuner, Samsung makes one for $179 at Circuit City or Best Buy. It will tune in the channels. Model number is H260F. That will save you the cost of renting their tuner, which I believe costs about $20 more per mo. As a bonus, the H260F is also a terrific over air tuner, too.
Dan

andy.s.lee

05-05-07, 03:32 AM

So getting even the close OTA channels is unlikely with a silver sensor inside? Dang. I guess I'll have to try cable, is comcast basic really 40bux? I thought basic should be around $13/month.
I still think you should try the Silver Sensor. It's easy to return if it doesn't work out, so there's very little to lose in trying. Based on your predicted signal strengths, I think you'll have a very good chance of receiving those local channels despite being indoors.

In analyses like the radar plot posted earlier, most people can receive channels indoors if their signal strengths are above -70 dBm (highest building loss, lowest antenna gain, most severe multipath). This already accounts for typical building penetration losses. When people install their antennas in the attic, they can usually get signals down to about -90 dBm (less building loss, higher gain antenna, less multipath). And when people go with a rooftop installation, they can usually get channels down to about -110 dBm (no building loss, high gain directional antenna, minimal multipath). Since every situation and building is different, these can only be treated as rough guidelines. However, I'm an electrical engineer with many years of experience developing and testing indoor RF reception devices (cellular, GPS, and TV), so I'm not just making arbitrary claims.

Since the local broadcasts should be reaching your location between -37 and -55 dBm, you'll probably still be able to pick up the channels even if you have worse-than-average building loss. The nice thing about the Silver Sensor is that it is somewhat directional, which means that it is better at coping with multipath problems than most other indoor antennas.

Other people have had success with this, the effort and risk are low, and you may gain half a dozen free OTA channels right off the bat. Seems like an easy, worthwhile experiment to me.

Whichever way you decide to go, good luck!

Best regards,
Andy

rdn

05-05-07, 11:58 AM

KOMO-DT finally showed up on Directv--good news for those of us who have had OTA problems with that channel.

stoked

05-06-07, 01:25 AM

stoked

05-06-07, 08:06 PM

BTW, can anyone recommend a good ATSC tuner card for the PC? I'd like to setup BeyondTV on my HTPC.

Thanks.

zyland

05-06-07, 11:40 PM

I saw that Best Buy had ATI TV Wonder 650 (ATSC tuner for PCI) for $140. Anybody have any experience with this one?

allen98311

05-07-07, 02:39 AM

DanKurts

05-07-07, 02:58 AM

I saw the Cat’s Eye 164e from Vbox.

Their website is http://www.vboxcomm.com/product3.htm

It looks interesting. It has 2 ATSC Tuners for about $200. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that will be one of the next computer purchases that I make.

allen98311
I'll second that.
I have seen the Cats Eye by Vbox, an older version,
http://www.vboxcomm.com/vbox/DTA_150_151.pdf
do some absolutely amazing things with extremely weak signals, below -22db, and in the woods, too. Have about a dozen installs feeding them, all around the Eastside, in the woods (Microsofties). Highly recommend one. I'm sure the latest version would as well, have heard nothing but good about them from other users.
It's going to be in my next desktop.
If anyone gets one, let us know how it does.
Dan

DanKurts

05-07-07, 03:06 AM

Wasn't able to grab a silver sensor since the closeby CC's were out of stock. I bought a RCA ANT103 from BB and was able to get all the yellow colored digital channels without adjustments. No fox , however =( Considering fox is directly opposite from the way my apartment faces I guess it's probably not worthwhile to try. Thanks for the advice guys!

stoked
Well done.
Fox is almost the same direction as the rest, SW. It is a lot farther, though, SW of Bremerton, and is probably why. Try it out on the balcony, just for fun, and see wassup. Your luck might just hold for that, too!
Dan

fred2

05-07-07, 04:19 PM

I am still trying (and now actually with some success) to get some of the "oddball" stations from the Wallingford-Greenlake area OTA.

I purchased the Terk amplified HDTVa antenna from BestBuy and with it precariously perched on the top edge of a door on my second floor with cable snaking across 3 door frames and then downstairs and under two rugs, I get channels 33's, 45's and 51 and 56 (the XX's means multiples of those digitals. The antenna definitely wants to be pointed in what I will call a pretty exacting southeast direction but gets all of the "downtown" stations, too. I think it is basically aimed between a rooftop or two of my southerly/easterly neighbors. (rabbit ears on an upstairs regular tv gets channel 33 with some ghosting.)

http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14370&langId=-1

But the position really is not going to work as that door cannot stay in that position and sometimes closes! And overhead cables hanging over other doors and then snaking downstairs is not suitable or OSHA approved (G)

I am considering the Terk outdoor antenna which I might be able to anchor somewhere appropropriate or even in a closet under the eaves.

http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/GenProductListCmd?type=nprev&catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=5064&langId=-1&page=&urlString=&productId=&brand=

Anyone have any opinions on the Terk's in general and my "concepts?" The terk's seem reasonably sized and more discreet.

Thanks for any input.

zyland

05-08-07, 02:46 AM

Alden_Sloe

05-08-07, 03:27 PM

What happened to KUNS?

I used to get the analog (channel 51) poorly and the digital (channel 50) with a lot of artifacting, now I get nothing on either 50 or 51. I notice that it's still being shown on Comcast channel 29.
I'm just in the process of trying to set up OTA digital for the first time. I live out in Woodinville with a hill and trees blocking the direct path to Queen Ann. KUNS was the only station I could pull in with any reliablity (shows up as 511). That was until this morning, then nothing. I thought my tuner had died. Has everyone lost KUNS?

stoked

05-08-07, 06:32 PM

stoked
Well done.
Fox is almost the same direction as the rest, SW. It is a lot farther, though, SW of Bremerton, and is probably why. Try it out on the balcony, just for fun, and see wassup. Your luck might just hold for that, too!
Dan

Hey Dan,

Was curious why you mentioned not to use an amplified antenna. I was thinking of maybe trying to pickup a Winegard Sharp Shooter and noticed there's 2 versions, one amped the other not. I'll try my current antenna on the balcony first though.

zyland

05-09-07, 02:30 AM

If you were getting KUNS (analog 51/digital 50), you should have a really good shot at picking up KWPX (analog 33/digital 32), KHCV (analog 45/digital 44) and KWDK (digital 42). KUNS is on one tower on West Tiger Mountain and the other three stations are right next to it on another tower.

KUNS (analog 51/digital 50) is still out as far as I can tell.

Alden_Sloe

05-09-07, 07:51 PM

I live on a NE facing slope out by Cottage Lake/ Lake Leota in Woodinville. I know from years gone by that VHF reception from Queen Ann was almost non existent so I wasn't expecting too much. I bought a KWorld 315U USB tuner box since it claims to be Clear-QAM compatible as well as doing OTA HD and analog. The external USB arrangement would mean I could take this on the road when we go trailer camping so at $75 with the rebate it seemed like cheap thrills :D

Here's some preliminary results with the cowboy engineering done so far:
1) Tried plugging it into my old laptop. Was told by the software setup (Arcsoft) that there was no USB 2.0 port available. What the heck, it'll just run slow, right :rolleyes: Wrong, the software installed just fine but accessing the USB 2.0 driver crashed the machine. Tried another machine that only had USB 1.0 ports with the same result. Damn, that means running an extra long input cable and 30' of VGA cable off a splitter. (The picture on the TV is a little dark, wonder why :cool: ?)

2) Installed on a 1.8GHz desktop and with a couple of screwed together RG59 cables patched into a splitter. I only have an internet feed. All analog TV except a couple of channels in the 70s are blocked. The first scan for analog channels found these (weather channel, KUOW, public access). Next scanned for QAM channels. Lots of signals according to the ArcSoft display bar graph but no channels found.

3) Just for fun I ran a couple of cables (about 60' of RG59 spliced together) out to the camping trailer and connected to it's roof top antenna. The trailer is actually in just about the best spot on the property for reception. Scanning for NTSC I got the usually local stations with the basicly unwatchable picture. Scanning for digital I really didn't have much hope but the antenna is set up for both VHF and UHF; the finest mid-70s technology available :p To my surprise it picked up KUNS digital on channel 511 with a good strong signal even though the antenna was oriented toward Seattle.

4) If I get analog (poorly) from Seattle and a strong signal from Tiger Mtn with a 30 year old antenna on an RV then maybe with some work the Seattle digital stations will come in. Based on recommendations here and local availability I picked up a Rat Shack 2160. Bolted it together with a wingnut and a prayer :rolleyes: , attached previously mentioned crummy old RG59 cable cludge and threw it up on the roof. Sure enough KUNS still came through loud and clear. Not only that but a rescan found a couple more channels from Tiger AND two digial feeds from KING. One was the weather channel (5.1?) and was actually viewable. The other I think is identified as KING-SD but the picture was never stable enough to actually watch.

5) OK, so if these quick and dirty tests got me as far as pulling in two digital stations from Queen Ann a little optimizing should get me crystal clear digital TV, right? Hah! You guys probably already know the answer to that one. First thing was when I literally put the antenna up on the roof it resulted in it being angled up about 30 degrees. I tried putting a 2x6 board under one end to level it out. That made the picture worse! OK, if angled up is good maybe angled up more is better yet... no dice. Tried moving the antenna around on the roof. After much trial and error I was able to get about 13 digital channels (about half watchable) but no improvement on either KING station. :confused:

I could try moving the antenna more and putting it on a mast but I seriously doubt it's going to help much with the current set-up. As it is the "sweet spot" is on the roof but all the way down at the gutter. From that position it's able to dodge under much of the tree cover across the street. Higher on the roof was worse as was below the gutter. The afore mentioned trailer is likely in the best spot and mounting a new HD antenna on that is a plausible alternative. However, seeing how position sensitive this is and given that there's no way to park the trailer in exactly the same spot each time it's used the 2160 doesn't seem viable. Especially since in this location angled up from the horizon about 30 degrees seems to be optimal and that's not easily adjustable. I'm guessing that at most sites where we camp level with the ground will be the preferred orientation.

So, I think my next experiment will be to try a different antenna. Based on what I've read here, local availablity and because of the angle issue I think the next trial horse should be the Channelmaster 4221. However, Fry's is a bit of a haul from Woodinville and it's impossible to determine if they'd even have one in stock. Therefore I'm tempted to go to CC and try the Phillips Stealthenna. Any thoughts on that?

tg3

05-09-07, 10:53 PM

I recently gave an OTA HD receiver and Silver Sensor to my parents who live in N. Seattle - about 130th and Meridian Ave by Ingraham HS. I thought they would be able to get reception easily, but the picture pops in and out and appears to be very sensitive to antenna direction. Regardless of antenna direction the picture is never stable enough to watch, except on a couple of the junk channels.

Is a different antenna needed in this area, maybe not as directional as the Silver Sensor? Maybe an outdoor antenna?
I'm not too far from your folks, near 125th and 7th Ave NW. I get great reception with a Sliver Sensor and the Rat Shack HD tuner. However, I am on a second floor with a great southern view - I can see the Queen Ann towers from my window. What kind of southern view does the house have?

Best of luck.

bigpoppa206

05-10-07, 04:50 AM

Beware, Comcast is messing around with their HD channels again...a lot of us lost KIRO, KCPQ, KSTW, etc.

Rico66

05-10-07, 10:57 AM

Beware, Comcast is messing around with their HD channels again...a lot of us lost KIRO, KCPQ, KSTW, etc.
I don't think Comcast can mess around with OTA channels ;)

bigpoppa206

05-10-07, 04:52 PM

I don't think Comcast can mess around with OTA channels ;)
DOH! :) Some of us are double dipping, that's all! On a side note, thank goodness! When I found out I didn't have KIRO at the moment, just hit the old A/B switch and voila...OTA KIRO.

DanKurts

05-11-07, 01:18 PM

DOH! :) Some of us are double dipping, that's all! On a side note, thank goodness! When I found out I didn't have KIRO at the moment, just hit the old A/B switch and voila...OTA KIRO.

bigpoppa206
Geeeze....
Thanks Comcast. My folks use the QAM in their Elite plasma, and they're way out in the sticks, no OTA. Haven't tried my cable here, FedWay. Have to see wassup.
Thanks for the heads up.
Dan

DanKurts

05-11-07, 01:30 PM

Hey Dan,

Was curious why you mentioned not to use an amplified antenna. I was thinking of maybe trying to pickup a Winegard Sharp Shooter and noticed there's 2 versions, one amped the other not. I'll try my current antenna on the balcony first though.

stoked
Signals, when you can get them in your area, are pretty hot. An amplifier doesn't discriminate, it amplifies EVERYthing, good and bad. You'll end up overloading the tuners RF AGC, or built in preamp, and the result will look to you like the signal is weak. Even if it did help with ch13, it could cause the loss of the others.
The Sharpshooter is a joke. I have one in my garage on the garbage pile. I tried it on probaly 40 or more installs against my other favorites, mostly the 4221, which is similar in type, and it was not even half as good. The antenna you're using now will most likely do far better. The fact it's working so well with your receiver tells me to not fix what ain't broke. Moving it out to the balcony is going to have the best chance for improvement. If that doesn't help, or you want to try something else, a 4221 is the way to go.
Dan

DanKurts

05-11-07, 01:43 PM

Alden_Sloe

05-11-07, 02:30 PM

Thanks for the reply Dan. Anything I did right is largely due to your advise on this forum!

Tried to pick up a Stealthtenna at Lowes. It's out of stock and in some sort of limbo. They checked the store ordering system and it said 12 on order, order not placed, on "active buy back from vendor". The employee had to call someone in purchasing to find out what that meant. It was explained to him that the vendor, ChannelMaster was buying back any stock Lowes had. The employee thought that was some sort of a recall and told me there must be something wrong with the product. I don't think that's the case because out of 15 customer reivews on their website it rated 4.8 out of 5. Anyway, no Stealthtenna from Lowes and I haven't seen it advertised anywhere else locally.

I want to buy a crimp tool for RG6 cable. I have a nice 100' length of RG6 from back in my satellite days but one of the ends is bad. It's possible just reducing the cable loss will boost me up to where I can get KING 5.1 I'm wondering if the reason I get KING 5.2 pretty decent with what's indicated as the same signal strength is because the data rate is much lower on the weather channel than on the real broadcast? I do get the sound from KING 5.1but the "picture" is nothing but noise bands across the screen.

I think my next step will be Fry's this weekend to attempt to find a 4221. If no success there then Circuit City or Best Buy to see if I can get a Philips MAN950. This antenna has a configuration that looks like it will optimize the very small window where I have a shot up under and through the trees to the Southwest. If it works it will be by far the least obrusive and since this is on the front of the house that's a consideration. It also looks like it might be good for the travel trailer. However, the 1970's vintage UHF/VHF antenna Airstream stuck up there is still pretty darned good. I guess we had RF antenna technology pretty well figured out back during WWII :)

As far a QAM I tried that to see if it was coming across the cable internet feed. No luck, filtered out up at the pole. Guess that makes sense as they're probably using much lower frequencies than for the internet signal. I'm set to have a cable guy come out next Thursday and set-up Digital Cable. I checked down at the Comcast store in Redmond and they really have the DVR available for my location. About time, it was "real soon now" about six years ago. Looks like a pretty nice unit too with dual tuners to watch one HD channel while recording another or record two at the same time and watch a previously recorded show. About the only thing it won't do is allow file transfer from the harddrive to another computer like my old ReplayTV was capable of. Guess that's what happens when you get Microsoft involved :mad:

-Bernie

Whidbey

05-11-07, 03:32 PM

Next thing to do is ditch the 59 cable, get a chunk of RG6 from Rat Shack or Home Depot. CH5 (actually ch 48 UHF) is up there in actual frequency, around 575mhz as I recall, and will have the greatest loss on cable, specially RG59, which is only designed for VHF, about 230mhz max.

That's good information. My house was per-wired for cable and I have been using it for my OTA. Gotta wonder if it is RG59... I've been thinking of replacing it with good quality RG6 cable, now I have another reason to justify doing so.
I get CH5 now, although sometimes the signal is weak, even on a clear day. CH4 almost never comes is. Is CH4 at a higher frequency than CH5?
I still haven't invested in a 4228, that will be next on my list.

James

rdn

05-12-07, 01:58 PM

Channel 4 (38) is on a lower frequency than channel 5 (48), but the antenna patterns of the two are different.

fatejd

05-12-07, 02:25 PM

Hey, noob here. I just got the ATI HDTV Wonder for my HTPC and thought I'd try to get HD OTA. I first started with the bundled antenna that came with the card with minimal results. I just got the Radioshack 15-1892 HD antenna (the one with a remote that looks like a flying saucer on a stand), but that didn't result in much better results.

I live just to the NE of Redmond, almost to Duvall, which is on top of Novelty Hill, so I would think my reception would be pretty good, but there are a lot of tall trees around, does that make a huge difference? What antenna would you experts recommend? I would much rather do an indoor one, but that's not going real well so far, so I will probably have to try an outdoor one next and mount it on my apartment balcony, but which one?

Thanks

LewH

05-13-07, 05:08 PM

Hi Guys,
Just thought I'd mention that I received a pleasant surprise yesterday when I turned on the TV. The TV programing guide is now being populated with data OTA. So, now
I can see what's playing and what is scheduled to be aired for the next week. Fun stuff, and a total surprise. In fact, I was just thinking about turning off the program
guide, so I wouldn't have to manually turn it off every time I powered up--glad now
that I didn't.
Dan, we are going to have an audiophile get together on Aug 25th, a Saturday. It will be at the Eagles and will have the Bottlehead group and the Pacific Northwest
Audiophile Society from Mercer Island in attendance. Anyone that loves audiophilia will have an interesting time, and I'll fire up the BBQ for dogs and Hamburgers.
Should see a lot of fun gear.
Regards,
Lew

Budget_HT

05-13-07, 05:28 PM

merrimac

05-13-07, 07:59 PM

I have the "limited cable" ($13/month) and the cable connects directly to my HDTV which has a QAM and a ATSC. I used to be able to see all 8 HD channels in the limited cable program lineup (4-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-3, 13-1, 14-1, 16-1 and 21-1). However, 4 of the HD channels were dropped after about May 3rd. Now I can only see 4-1, 5-1, 9-3 and 21-1 HD channels. I did auto search and still missed those 4 HD channels. I called Comcast and the CSR was no help. I live in Kenomore/Juanita area. One of my friends in Samamish also can only receive these 4 HD channels from his "Basic program".

Now I have to use the indoor arena to receive all the 8 OTA HD channels. But sometimes the signal is not that stable.

Anyone knows if Comcast changed it's program lineup or something? Thanks.

stoked
If you have a Cable Card ready TV with a built in QAM tuner, you can get basic cable for about $13/mo, and the local Seattle HD channels will come in. Different numbers than you're used to, but you can figure out who's who in no time. You won't need a cable box or cable card. If you want other HD cable channels, then you will have to step up. If your set is Not cable card ready, or doesn't have a QAM tuner, Samsung makes one for $179 at Circuit City or Best Buy. It will tune in the channels. Model number is H260F. That will save you the cost of renting their tuner, which I believe costs about $20 more per mo. As a bonus, the H260F is also a terrific over air tuner, too.
Dan

LewH

05-14-07, 04:32 PM

Are you using the OTA tuner in your TV or something else? Is it the PSIP guide that you are seeing?
I'm using the internal Tuner in the Set. It's a Pioneer Elite. I'm not sure how to answer your question . The guide has TV Guide on it. I don't know if that helps or not.
Lew

Budget_HT

05-14-07, 07:43 PM

I am not familiar with the details of the Pioneer Elite sets, but it sounds like you are getting TV Guide (brand) schedule info since PSIP (which is included within each digital channel being broadcast, if they supportit) usually does not go near that far into the future.

Anyway, congratulations on having a working guide. Does it support the HD channels separately, including the KCTS-HD channel (9-5) which has a different programming schedule and content than the KCTS-SD (non-HD) channels (9-1 and 9-3)?

bigpoppa206

05-14-07, 10:47 PM

bigpoppa206
Geeeze....
Thanks Comcast. My folks use the QAM in their Elite plasma, and they're way out in the sticks, no OTA. Haven't tried my cable here, FedWay. Have to see wassup.
Thanks for the heads up.
Dan
Long sigh, it's only Comcast moving their QAM channels around...again!

110-1 KONG 31-1 HD 106
110-2 KIRO 39-1 CBS HD 107
110-3 KIRO 39-2 117
111-1 KCPQ 18-1 Fox HD 113
111-2 KSTW 36-1 CW HD 111

DanKurts

05-15-07, 12:28 AM

DanKurts

05-15-07, 12:32 AM

Long sigh, it's only Comcast moving their QAM channels around...again!

110-1 KONG 31-1 HD 106
110-2 KIRO 39-1 CBS HD 107
110-3 KIRO 39-2 117
111-1 KCPQ 18-1 Fox HD 113
111-2 KSTW 36-1 CW HD 111

bigpoppa206
Thanks!
Haven't had time to check out Comcast here. That saves me some time.
Going to see my folks, Sat, dad's turning 90 !!
I'll reprogram his Pronto then.
I owe ya.
Dan

DanKurts

05-15-07, 12:37 AM

I have the "limited cable" ($13/month) and the cable connects directly to my HDTV which has a QAM and a ATSC. I used to be able to see all 8 HD channels in the limited cable program lineup (4-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-3, 13-1, 14-1, 16-1 and 21-1). However, 4 of the HD channels were dropped after about May 3rd. Now I can only see 4-1, 5-1, 9-3 and 21-1 HD channels. I did auto search and still missed those 4 HD channels. I called Comcast and the CSR was no help. I live in Kenomore/Juanita area. One of my friends in Samamish also can only receive these 4 HD channels from his "Basic program".

Now I have to use the indoor arena to receive all the 8 OTA HD channels. But sometimes the signal is not that stable.

Anyone knows if Comcast changed it's program lineup or something? Thanks.

merrimac
As was posted above, they have been moving things around. Suggest you try an old Sony trick. Disconnect the power cord for a few minutes, and let the set boot up like new install, then do a rescan. It might get it to recognize the new ones. If there's a "reset to defaults", that also might get it clear the memory.
Dan

zyland

05-15-07, 10:07 PM

I got a reply from KUNS about the outage of analog channel 51

Short story: hopefully, they will be back on air next week

We will remain broadcasting on channel 51, but unfortunately at the moment we are having problems with our analog (on air) transmitter that is not allowing us to broadcast our signal on channel 51. We are working on fixing the problem, at the moment we are waiting for some parts to arrive before we can finish fixing our on air signal. Once those pieces arrive we will have our signal back on the air and you will be able to see us on channel 51.

Thanks for taking the time to write to us, please know we are doing what we can and that hopefully no later than early next week we can have everyone watching us over the air again.

The analog 51 KUNS is back on air. It wasn't this morning but it was this evening.

LewH

05-15-07, 11:27 PM

bigpoppa206

05-17-07, 09:53 PM

bigpoppa206
Thanks!
Haven't had time to check out Comcast here. That saves me some time.
Going to see my folks, Sat, dad's turning 90 !!
I'll reprogram his Pronto then.
I owe ya.
Dan
Comcast is now routing (at least here in the Lake City area) the previously lost channels to the correct numbers, so 7.1, 7.2, 11.1, 13.1 and 16.1 should work again for those affected.

An aside, there is ONE music channel (Latin) in the clear too at 119.54...go figure!

Alden_Sloe

05-18-07, 02:32 AM

That's good information. My house was per-wired for cable and I have been using it for my OTA. Gotta wonder if it is RG59... I've been thinking of replacing it with good quality RG6 cable, now I have another reason to justify doing so.
James
Swapped out my lead of about 50' of RG59 with about 100' of RG6. It was a wash. No difference even after crimping new connectors on the RG6. I have found that any kinks or sharp bends in the cable run will make a big difference in signal quality (no big surprise there). If you have really long runs, say over 100' then the swap might make a noticable difference. Especially if the old cables have somewhat marginal connectors on them now. -Bernie

rdn

05-18-07, 01:27 PM

The highest frequency digital station in this area is KUNS on channel 50 (686-692 MHz). At that frequency, RG59 will have slightly less than 7 dB/100 ft of attenuation (per Belden 1186A spec). RG6 will have a bit over 5 dB/100 ft (Belden 1189A). Except for a borderline signal, it would be hard to notice much difference (100 ft. of RG6 would have more loss than 50 ft. of RG59). The loss for either would be less at lower frequencies, of course.

Bob

Alden_Sloe

05-18-07, 01:42 PM

DanKurts

05-19-07, 01:54 AM

Thanks Bob for the specs. I'd looked them up and pretty much knew there wouldn't be a big difference. KUNS comes in strong with either cable. I was hoping that KING-HD would come in since it's right on the margin (tuner locks on put "picture" is just noise bands with an occasional partial image).

It would be nice to have specs on connectors. Talking with a cable tech he said they've changed connectors multiple times over the years. Contrary to what a lot of people think they really do care about signal loss. They're also big on weather proofing. Anyway, he said real world measurement shows the loss per connection to be down in the .1-.2db range. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the old off the shelf RG59 TV cables are up around a full db per connection. Length, routing and any physical damage to the cable (i.e. kinked, compressed by a staple, etc.) make a huge difference. I've seen big differences in performance between two cables of the same length and type even though there was nothing visibly different. -Bernie

Bernie
Cable and connector specs vary a little, and there are small differences between brands. The biggest problem I've noticed, though, like you mentioned, is cable that's been roughed up, usually on install, yet still looks fine. The internal damage to the dielectric can make big changes, and some huge holes in frequency. Connectors that are not installed correctly can also cause wierd problems and loss. Outdoor connections that aren't sealed are another common problem, and if there's any current going through it, say for a preamp, it will corrode even faster.

As for fitting loss, it's very minor, done right. At some stores I've done, where there are 25 or more fittings getting to the end of a run, a test with a similar piece of cable, straight shot same length, showed almost identical numbers. Less than even .1db per fitting. Where many fittings DO show a slight difference is analog video. The more you have, the more "smear" or softness in the picture. It used to be a problem on big installs at stores, apartments, etc, but with everything going digital now, it's gone. It's one of the things, among others, that gave cable TV problems many years ago.

The other thing that gets overlooked is the amount of noise in the cable itself. The cheaper brands, or older cable, can be very noisy yet have similar loss. Older RG59 can really be bad. I have a piece running under the house I put in in over 15 years ago for a run from my old Laser player to my office. (Was out of RG6 at the time, and got lazy!) Worked okay for ch3 VHF. I tried to use it to push my HD UHF so I wouldn't have to do another run. Loss wasn't bad, only 4db, but noise and BER was lousy. Ran a new piece of RG6 around the house outside, longer distance, only lost 2db, but noise was almost nonexistant.
The noise problem also shows up when someone tries to use RG59 for satellite. Loss is bad at 1 to 1.5ghz, but even when there's still enough signal level, it won't lock on from all the noise.
It's very possible that Whidbey's prewire job got screwed up from the cable being manhandled. A chunk of RG6 with fittings on it from RatShack, run from point A to B for a test, will verify it quickly. If it doesn't help, you can always return it.

Dan

rdn

05-19-07, 05:59 PM

DanKurts

05-21-07, 01:25 AM

Back (pre-cable TV days) when RG inferred mil-spec, RG59 only had a braid, not a solid shield and solid rather than foam dielectric. I suspect it would be hard to find that kind anymore, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of performance. In addition, the dielectric in older cables could really degrade over time. There might even be RG6 with this type of construction, but it would be pretty rare.

Another reason not to use RG59 for satellite is that the DC resistance of the center conductor is higher and there might be too much voltage drop, particularly if the lines are long and it is driving a multiswitch and multiple LNBs. This can also be a problem with RG6 having a copper-clad steel center conductor instead of solid copper.

I have been using compression F connectors on all of my recent cabling but need to switch out a bunch of the older ones (some of which have pretty crude crimps).

Bob

Bob
Right you are. The old RG59 was a nightmare with the braid. Better than twin lead, but ingress city. I grew up on Queen Anne hill, major interference and ingress. In the early 70's I had to try about 4 different brands until we got one that worked fair.
The copper clad RG6 works just as good as the solid copper for signal, sat or ant, even on long runs. Never had any problems with voltage or current that I wouldn't have had with solid copper. Of course, you need to be careful stripping the end so as to not cut all the way through the thin copper plating to the steel, and loosing a bit of conductivity.
On a job that had over 200ft to a dish, with the switch mounted on the back, I ran out of cable for the 4th run, and the customer had a long piece of new Monster solid copper with their heavy copper braid and aluminum shield. Side by side, all four runs checked the same, none using more than 10ma of current. The signal was obviously a bit weak, so put some in line receiver powered amps on each run, and the levels were all with a half db of each other, and none drawing more than 25ma total. BER and other readings looked fine. I'm sure there must be some minute differences and in some situations solid copper has to be superior. I've never run into a need for it, though.
The main problem I have with solid copper center is it's far easier to bend and damage the cable, too flexible, and it's easy to bend the center conductor when you try to screw the fitting to a tight or new female connector.
Crimp fittings are fine, done right. When somebody uses pliers, though, you've got trouble. Seen way too many of those.
Dan

suomynona

05-21-07, 03:14 AM

Karyk

05-21-07, 10:02 AM

There is a Seattle Millenium thread. You can probably find out what they offer for free in the way of QAM. Comcast offers all the locals free (even on their $12.95 a month plan).

If you can see the Space Needle, my guess is with an antenna you'd get 4, 5 and 7, but not 9, 11 (Capitol Hill antennas) or 13 (Bremerton).

suomynona

05-21-07, 10:11 AM

Thanks Karyk :) That was the thread that pointed me to this one for the antenna questions. Based on my current living situation, do you have a brand name/model antenna you'd recommend?

zyland

05-21-07, 10:09 PM

I'll have my first HDTV in about 3 weeks. I currently have Millenium. It's built into what I pay for rent at the apartment complex I live at, at the Denny Regrade in Belltown. I live on the first floor with windows facing the Space Needle.

My Sony will have a QAM and ATSC tuners. (Not sure if that's standard or not - just thought I should mention it in case it isn't.)

At this point, I'm a obviously a newbie. I'm wondering if there's anything I should order antenna wise so I can pull as many channels as possible. I'm a cheap SOB, so I'd rather not have to give Millenium any more of my money.

Obviously I can't hook up an antenna on the roof. Are there any links or posts on this forum (or elsewhere) that might give me the best advice on what to do next, based on my current living situation?

Thanks in advance :)

If Millenium is part of the rent, then there may not be any way of getting out of paying for basic cable. If that's the case, you don't have anything to lose by trying to see what HD channels you can get with basic cable with your built-in QAM tuner.

I don't have Millenium myself but from what I've read on that forum, you should get unencrypted QAM HD versions of KOMO, KIRO, KCPQ, KMYQ and KCTS using any good QAM tuner. You definitely won't get KSTW in HD. KING HD and KONG HD are available but may be encrypted. Not sure.

If Millenium passes the PSIP information thru, you should be able to find them at their OTA channels. If not, you get to play this great game that the folks over at the Comcast forum are all abuzz about. It's called "where did they move it to now?" It's ever so much fun and a new game seems to start every couple of months.

But I applaud your efforts to get your HD OTA. We need a motto for the OTA enthusiast. Something like "Watch free or read"

Whidbey

05-21-07, 11:13 PM

It's very possible that Whidbey's prewire job got screwed up from the cable being manhandled.

Dan

Not to mention the torture it endured when I moved some of the cables around back when I had satellite TV. I think I will take your advice and just buy a new section of cable with installed connectors.

James

suomynona

05-22-07, 02:13 AM

Thank you for the long reply zyland :) I am assuming you're telling me to wait to see what I can get before going out to buy an antenna before the television gets here. If so, that's what I'll do.

That Comcast game sounds awful. heheh

One of the reasons I am going through all of this is because of what my Mom is able to pick up on the new HDTV my sister and I bought for her for Mother's Day. It's QAM picks up not only all of the basic channels, but many upper tier channels as well (on WAVE cable). I imagine one of these days I'm going to get a call about her not being able to do so anymore. At that point, I guess I'll have to figure out an antenna solution for her too.

DanKurts

05-22-07, 03:51 AM

I'll have my first HDTV in about 3 weeks. I currently have Millenium. It's built into what I pay for rent at the apartment complex I live at, at the Denny Regrade in Belltown. I live on the first floor with windows facing the Space Needle.

My Sony will have a QAM and ATSC tuners. (Not sure if that's standard or not - just thought I should mention it in case it isn't.)

At this point, I'm a obviously a newbie. I'm wondering if there's anything I should order antenna wise so I can pull as many channels as possible. I'm a cheap SOB, so I'd rather not have to give Millenium any more of my money.

Obviously I can't hook up an antenna on the roof. Are there any links or posts on this forum (or elsewhere) that might give me the best advice on what to do next, based on my current living situation?

Thanks in advance :)

suomynona
From what I've seen of Millenium, as of a year ago in downtown, they only had 4-5-7-9 in HD. Didn't try the QAM. Picture quality on the other channels was fair at best. You should be able to pick up 4-5-7-16 with a little Silver Sensor or small UHF antenna, NON-amplified, without any problem pointed at the towers through the window. The other channels are going to be blocked by the downtown buildings and your location. Try the QAM tuner on the cable just for fun and see what you get. Let us know what you find.
Dan

DanKurts

05-22-07, 03:54 AM

We need a motto for the OTA enthusiast. Something like "Watch free or read"

zyland
Great motto !!
Dan

suomynona

05-22-07, 04:06 AM

zyland

05-22-07, 01:20 PM

Thank you for the long reply zyland :) I am assuming you're telling me to wait to see what I can get before going out to buy an antenna before the television gets here. If so, that's what I'll do.
That's just my opinion. If you are paying for it either way. Find out what's available when you have a QAM tuner before spending a lot of time and energy on an antenna.
That Comcast game sounds awful. heheh
I got used to it but my family never did. It's the main reason I switched from cable to OTA.

rdn

05-22-07, 01:21 PM

Dan,

Here's to hoping they still have 5 in HD. I'd like to at least be able to watch my favorite show in HD.

Here's the newbie question of the month: is there any difference in quality with QAM or using an antenna (or doubling up for that matter?) Am I able to use both to pick up the most channels possible, or is it one or the other? I'm across the street from both KOMO and KIRO so those should come in pretty well (or at least that's what a noob like myself is thinking). I haven't read enough yet to find out who owns the towers at the top of Queen Anne. Luckily, I can also see those from my window. I have to wonder how many people use to consider those an eye sore until they realized it might help them get HD...

Without doing any Googling (so feel free to tell me to Google it), is it better to get a Silver Sensor (I have no idea what that is haha) or a small UHF antenna - and where would you buy one? Online, or locally.

Thanks again to everyone for your help/advice :)

KOMO, KIRO, KING and KONG are on the Queen Anne towers (I forget which are on which towers). KCTS, KSTW and KMYQ are on the Capitol Hill towers.

DanKurts

05-23-07, 03:40 AM

Dan,

Here's to hoping they still have 5 in HD. I'd like to at least be able to watch my favorite show in HD.

Here's the newbie question of the month: is there any difference in quality with QAM or using an antenna (or doubling up for that matter?) Am I able to use both to pick up the most channels possible, or is it one or the other? I'm across the street from both KOMO and KIRO so those should come in pretty well (or at least that's what a noob like myself is thinking). I haven't read enough yet to find out who owns the towers at the top of Queen Anne. Luckily, I can also see those from my window. I have to wonder how many people use to consider those an eye sore until they realized it might help them get HD...

Without doing any Googling (so feel free to tell me to Google it), is it better to get a Silver Sensor (I have no idea what that is haha) or a small UHF antenna - and where would you buy one? Online, or locally.

Thanks again to everyone for your help/advice :)

suomynona
As you look north, the right tower is KING and KONG, the middle one KOMO, and the left one KIRO.
Most sets have two antenna inputs. You can do both that way if you want. As Zyland said, try the cable first, easiest solution. The over air is slightly better than cable, but most people don't notice it, HD looks so good either way. Action is where the over air is better, but not a enough for most people to notice unless it's a side by side comparo.
Almost any small UHF antenna will work for you, non ampified, of course.
Radio Shack or Fry's has some.
Dan

Karyk

05-23-07, 10:24 AM

Thanks Karyk :) That was the thread that pointed me to this one for the antenna questions. Based on my current living situation, do you have a brand name/model antenna you'd recommend?

Nope--I use an in attic antenna, which I assume would not be suitable for your application. ;)

allen98311

05-26-07, 02:51 AM

There is a rumor on the Wikipedia entry for KIRO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIRO-TV) that says that CBS is hesitant to renew the affiliation contract with Cox Communications, owner of KIRO-TV.

bigpoppa206

05-26-07, 06:02 AM

There is a rumor on the Wikipedia entry for KIRO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIRO-TV) that says that CBS is hesitant to renew the affiliation contract with Cox Communications, owner of KIRO-TV.
And I notice the person who added that did not use a verifiable citation or source.

quarque

05-27-07, 12:34 AM

hence the word "rumor"...

Karyk

05-27-07, 01:24 PM

The rumor could be 15 years old. Remember CBS did switch to Ch 11 several years ago, and then switched back?

rdn

05-27-07, 02:01 PM

There was a lot of buying/selling of locals going on then. CBS now owns KSTW, so anything could happen.

Karyk

05-27-07, 02:38 PM

quarque

05-27-07, 05:32 PM

Last I checked FCC records they were at 850 kW which is pretty good. Very few stations ever get to a megawatt on digital.

stoked

05-28-07, 09:31 PM

DanKurts

05-29-07, 12:14 AM

Is Channel 11 still broadcasting at relatively low power in HD? I wasn't able to receive them reliably OTA last time I tried, which was over a year ago. Presumably if CBS switched to Channel 11 they'd bump the power up, but I'm not certain I could receive them (I bet I could--but I'm not sure).

Karyk
Ch11 has been at full power for over a year, maybe more. They do have an odd transmitting pattern, which might be a problem if you're not in their good area

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=68209&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.920&p30=0.801&p40=0.612&p50=0.389&p60=0.240&p70=0.235&p80=0.246&p90=0.254&p100=0.281&p110=0.281&p120=0.254&p130=0.246&p140=0.235&p150=0.240&p160=0.389&p170=0.612&p180=0.801&p190=0.920&p200=0.978&p210=1.000&p220=0.976&p230=0.871&p240=0.656&p250=0.366&p260=0.216&p270=0.401&p280=0.548&p290=0.548&p300=0.401&p310=0.216&p320=0.366&p330=0.656&p340=0.871&p350=0.976&p360=1.000&

Dan

Joe Hendrix

05-29-07, 12:13 PM

I rarely get channel 11. I get the other channels just fine, but channel 11 is very hit and miss... mainly miss.

Karyk

05-29-07, 09:10 PM

Karyk
Ch11 has been at full power for over a year, maybe more. They do have an odd transmitting pattern, which might be a problem if you're not in their good area

Dan

I'm not sure how long ago it's been since I tried OTA. I have it through Comcast QAM now. I'll have to give it a try--it wouldn't be that hard.

bigpoppa206

05-30-07, 04:42 AM

hence the word "rumor"...
Hence my adding the notation "citation needed" as Wikipedia is not in the rumor business. Isn't that what Usenet is for? :D

DanKurts

05-30-07, 10:52 PM

After successfully receiving NBC, ABC, CBS, etc, in Juanita, Kirkland, I seem to get stuttering especially on windy days. Is there any way to eliminate the stuttering with an indoor antenna? I have some generic RCA at the moment. Would a PHDTV1 help me?

stoked
Hard to say. You're working in tough conditions. If wind is bothering you with an indoor antenna, you're dealing with lots of splattered signals. Never hurts to try.
Make sure you can return it. I think Fry's also sold it, and they accept returns.
Dan

stoked

05-30-07, 11:05 PM

stoked
Hard to say. You're working in tough conditions. If wind is bothering you with an indoor antenna, you're dealing with lots of splattered signals. Never hurts to try.
Make sure you can return it. I think Fry's also sold it, and they accept returns.
Dan

Picked up the silver sensor yesterday, it actually helped quite a bit, occasional drops but much better than the RCA antenna. I also found the signal meter in my TV (:D) Seems like the signal fluctuates quite a bit, from 86% to 65% where it starts to stutter.

Robert Brooks

05-31-07, 03:58 PM

Could someone tell me which would be a better choice for me a 4221 or a 4228, I live in Shoreline (1234 N 191st Street), have a Radio Shack 75-2160 antenna w/ rotor. It is very directional. I use the tuner from my Sony DHG HDD500. I was hoping to get something that didn't require me to rotate my antenna when switching channels. Could I get KVOS digital from this distance? I get the analog station pretty well now. Any chance on CHEK, CBUT or CKVU analog? My tuner selcts them when I scan for channels but have been unable to see anything on them yet.

I haven't been able to pull in the KBTC digitals as of the last couple of weeks.

Thanks,
Rob

robglasser

05-31-07, 04:30 PM

Could someone tell me which would be a better choice for me a 4221 or a 4228, I live in Shoreline (1234 N 191st Street), have a Radio Shack 75-2160 antenna w/ rotor.

I'd go with the 4221. I live north of you, near Mill Creek and it works great. I started with a 4228 and returned it. The 4221 is less directional so I was able to pick up both queen anne stations and KCPQ with it, without needing to rotate it. I also get KBTC.

k-y

06-01-07, 08:42 PM

I live in Redmond and am fortunate enough to get the following digital channels very clearly

KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG, KTBW and KMYQ

Your mileage may vary. I recently redid all of the connectors and re-positioned the antenna which cleared up all the issues I was having on those channels.zyland, what are your cross streets?

Basic cable for minimum bucks and a TV with a QAM tuner or card for your PC would let you pick up the locals in HD with out having to spring for the extra charge HD cable boxNewbie question here: how would having basic cable and then QAM or a card for my PC enable me to pick up local HD?

zyland

06-01-07, 11:26 PM

zyland, what are your cross streets?
I'm at the top of education hill on the side facing Seattle (main cross streets: 166th Ave NE & NE 104th ST).

Newbie question here: how would having basic cable and then QAM or a card for my PC enable me to pick up local HD?
Comcast's Limited Basic includes HD versions of KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG and KMYQ. If you have a QAM tuner in your TV, you should be able to receive these at no additional cost.

Karyk

06-02-07, 11:11 AM

Newbie question here: how would having basic cable and then QAM or a card for my PC enable me to pick up local HD?

There are two PC cards (that I know of) that will pick up QAM. One is the MyHD-130 and the other is the current Fusion cards. As far as I know both work only with their own software (although the Fusion will work OTA with software such as Sage, MCE, etc.)

There is also the HD Homerun, which is a two tuner newwork box that connects to your computer through a network cable. It will pick up QAM and OTA, and will work with software products such as Sage, MCE, etc. (in fact it doesn't have it's own software).

Being able to use products like Sage, MCE, etc. means it's more Tivo-like. You can set season passes, etc. With the MyHD and Fusion software you have to tell it each program to record each week.

A Comcast subscription, even the $12.95 limited basic plans, includes the local HD channels in clear QAM.

Rico66

06-02-07, 12:13 PM

There are two PC cards (that I know of) that will pick up QAM. One is the MyHD-130 and the other is the current Fusion cards. As far as I know both work only with their own software (although the Fusion will work OTA with software such as Sage, MCE, etc.)

There is also the HD Homerun, which is a two tuner newwork box that connects to your computer through a network cable. It will pick up QAM and OTA, and will work with software products such as Sage, MCE, etc. (in fact it doesn't have it's own software).

Being able to use products like Sage, MCE, etc. means it's more Tivo-like. You can set season passes, etc. With the MyHD and Fusion software you have to tell it each program to record each week.

A Comcast subscription, even the $12.95 limited basic plans, includes the local HD channels in clear QAM.
There are more cards that support QAM these days (the ones you listed above are the more expensive ones...). E.g. the Avermedia A180, Kworld 115, Hauppauge 1600 all support QAM, and they are all cheaper.
But as you said the only one that supports MCE as of now is the HD Homerun.

Karyk

06-03-07, 02:31 PM

There are more cards that support QAM these days (the ones you listed above are the more expensive ones...). E.g. the Avermedia A180, Kworld 115, Hauppauge 1600 all support QAM, and they are all cheaper.
But as you said the only one that supports MCE as of now is the HD Homerun.

The HD Homerun isn't that expensive when you consider it's dual tuner. And the ability to work QAM under Sage, MCE, etc. makes it a bargain, because you're likely going to want that.

And the MyHD is primarily designed for low end computers, since it has its own video system. Thus, the price for that one is worth it. I think there may be some work going on to get it to work under Sage, but I haven't followed that.

fatejd

06-04-07, 01:39 PM

zyland

06-04-07, 05:21 PM

Another newbie question about QAM:

Do you need a subscription to cable to get it, or can you get it if you have cable installed in your home? Can you get it off a jack without paying for the basic service? I only care because I can only get Millennium (also not sure what their QAM is like) and don't want to pay 30 bucks for their new minimum cable package. Comcast, how I miss thou!

Millenium has a forum as well, search for "AVS Forum > HDTV > Local HDTV Info and Reception > Seattle, WA - Millenium"
You can also download Millenium's channel lineup here

http://www.mdm.net/lineup/EKC.pdf

Looks like most of the local HD channels are available (via a QAM tuner) on Millenium's basic cable except KING, KONG and KSTW. KING and KONG you have to pay extra for and KSTW isn't an option.

If you have Millenium, Comcast isn't an option.

As with any cable service, you would need to pay for at least limited basic to receive any service. They physically come out and disconnect your cable.

bigpoppa206

06-04-07, 09:23 PM

There are more cards that support QAM these days (the ones you listed above are the more expensive ones...). E.g. the Avermedia A180, Kworld 115, Hauppauge 1600 all support QAM, and they are all cheaper.
But as you said the only one that supports MCE as of now is the HD Homerun.
I have been happily using a Fusion card for the last 5 months and they work great. All packages have their pluses and minuses and all packages have software issues in some regard. But turning an old Dell workstation into a full blown HTPC was worth it...all for less than $200.00.

quarque

06-20-07, 10:01 PM

I have been happily using a Fusion card for the last 5 months and they work great. All packages have their pluses and minuses and all packages have software issues in some regard. But turning an old Dell workstation into a full blown HTPC was worth it...all for less than $200.00.

I recently stumbled upon the Viore HDTV Wizard at Walmart.com. At $110 I was intrigued enough to order one. It is a USB dongle with complete ATSC and NTSC tuners. You install their software and plug in an antenna and you've got HDTV on your laptop or desktop PC. It comes with a little 5" whip antenna that pulled in everything local except 13 (always gave me trouble anyway with my Samsung T150). I pulled out my trusty Rat Shack double-bowtie and it pulled in 13 easily. So the tuner is impressive. But it is really remarkable that they fit all this in a package that is 3" x 1.5" x 0.5". It does require a decent CPU and video card/chip to work well. But I found my laptop worked OK even though it is slower than their "minimum" speed. It appears that the video hardware affects the performance much more than CPU speed. At any rate, it is a fun little device that I will take on vacations. I can't post the manual because the PDF excedes the upload limit, but I will email it to you if you want. Send me a PM. Oh, and did I mention it records HD too and it has a remote control and EPG!

DanKurts

06-21-07, 01:49 AM

I recently stumbled upon the Viore HDTV Wizard at Walmart.com. At $110 I was intrigued enough to order one. It is a USB dongle with complete ATSC and NTSC tuners. You install their software and plug in an antenna and you've got HDTV on your laptop or desktop PC. It comes with a little 5" whip antenna that pulled in everything local except 13 (always gave me trouble anyway with my Samsung T150). I pulled out my trusty Rat Shack double-bowtie and it pulled in 13 easily. So the tuner is impressive. But it is really remarkable that they fit all this in a package that is 3" x 1.5" x 0.5". It does require a decent CPU and video card/chip to work well. But I found my laptop worked OK even though it is slower than their "minimum" speed. It appears that the video hardware affects the performance much more than CPU speed. At any rate, it is a fun little device that I will take on vacations. I can't post the manual because the PDF excedes the upload limit, but I will email it to you if you want. Send me a PM. Oh, and did I mention it records HD too and it has a remote control and EPG!

quarque
WOW!
Gonna check this out right away. An old Air Force friend from my service days, that stayed in Japan, sent me an article about a chip that was developed that had the ATSC, NTSC, QAM and Direct tuners. It was to be used in upcoming TV's. Think it was about a year ago. Almost nothing in the chip world is beyond belief anymore.
Let you know how it works on my laptop.
Thanks !
Dan

brownnet

06-21-07, 03:13 AM

quarque
WOW!
Gonna check this out right away. An old Air Force friend from my service days, that stayed in Japan, sent me an article about a chip that was developed that had the ATSC, NTSC, QAM and Direct tuners. It was to be used in upcoming TV's. Think it was about a year ago. Almost nothing in the chip world is beyond belief anymore.
Let you know how it works on my laptop.
Thanks !
Dan
I've been looking at the Pinnacle Systems USB ATSC tuner link here (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8355656&st=USB+Tuner&type=product&id=1177112314566). If anyone has any experience with it, I'd love to hear thoughts. It's half the price of the previous mentioned one.

Budget_HT

06-21-07, 10:23 AM

I recently stumbled upon the Viore HDTV Wizard at Walmart.com. At $110 I was intrigued enough to order one. It is a USB dongle with complete ATSC and NTSC tuners. You install their software and plug in an antenna and you've got HDTV on your laptop or desktop PC. It comes with a little 5" whip antenna that pulled in everything local except 13 (always gave me trouble anyway with my Samsung T150). I pulled out my trusty Rat Shack double-bowtie and it pulled in 13 easily. So the tuner is impressive. But it is really remarkable that they fit all this in a package that is 3" x 1.5" x 0.5". It does require a decent CPU and video card/chip to work well. But I found my laptop worked OK even though it is slower than their "minimum" speed. It appears that the video hardware affects the performance much more than CPU speed. At any rate, it is a fun little device that I will take on vacations. I can't post the manual because the PDF excedes the upload limit, but I will email it to you if you want. Send me a PM. Oh, and did I mention it records HD too and it has a remote control and EPG!
Some of these little devices support ATSC but not QAM. Does this one do both?

fred2

06-21-07, 07:48 PM

quarque

06-21-07, 09:13 PM

quarque

06-21-07, 09:26 PM

I hope this is a quickie (G)

UHF v. VHF?

I see most (all) antennas seem to distinguish. I am having drop-outs on Channel 13.1. What type of antenna can/should be used to get better reception? I also have some problems with higher numbered stations, too, but House, Bones and a few others, I would like to receive without losing sound or getting pixelization.

Seattle, south of Greenlake. I see the DB2 gets good reviews and is multi-directional so maybe it can get those antennas both to the southwest and to the southeast.

Thanks for any assistance.

Ch 13 digital is actually at 18 UHF. So you want a UHF unit for our local digitals. Note that 9,11,13 have applied to the FCC to revert back to their VHF channels when analog goes dark (circa 2010?). The CM 4221 is the most popular UHF unit but the DB2 may work fine too. Your problem with 13 may be due to hills. Post your nearest cross streets so we can check.

quarque

06-21-07, 09:34 PM

quarque
WOW!
Gonna check this out right away. An old Air Force friend from my service days, that stayed in Japan, sent me an article about a chip that was developed that had the ATSC, NTSC, QAM and Direct tuners. It was to be used in upcoming TV's. Think it was about a year ago. Almost nothing in the chip world is beyond belief anymore.
Let you know how it works on my laptop.
Thanks !
Dan

Dan - I think all these are using the same chip. There are now portable LCD TV's with ATSC & NTSC (but not for $110, yet). I am impressed with the tuner and software. The interface shows signal strength AND quality using 2 cell-phone-like bar graphs. It must be rejecting reflected signals and reporting the level/number of them on the second bar graph. Useful info if you're trying to decide on gain vs. beamwidth etc. When I have time I will compare antennas and see if the "quality" graph is real or baloney.

fred2

06-21-07, 11:05 PM

quarque

06-22-07, 12:03 AM

1st NE and NE 56th (just off the freeway and south of Greenlake).

Pretty flat to my south and drops off to the east (freeway) and west (Greenlake way). There are neighboring trees and a roof or two or three.

Thanks

CH 13 tower is SW of you and there are no hills in the way. So it could be antenna placement and/or reflections that are causing trouble. What is your current antenna? Indoors or outdoors? Do you have access to the roof or 2nd floor or attic? Outdoors is better; higher is better.

DanKurts

06-22-07, 01:45 AM

CH 13 tower is SW of you and there are no hills in the way. So it could be antenna placement and/or reflections that are causing trouble. What is your current antenna? Indoors or outdoors? Do you have access to the roof or 2nd floor or attic? Outdoors is better; higher is better.

quarque, et al
Reception in this area can get wierd for ch 13. I know it looks easy, but ....
Outdoors is best, and try different locations. It acts like your in a heavily wooded area, but close in. Signal level can be fairly good, but it gets chopped up. Had one on 3rd and 60th, heck of a time with ch 13. Tried lots of antennas and tricks. Ended up using the 4221, but had to bail on their old Samsung 360 satellite tuner, but my test tuner, the new H260F Samsung pulled it in just fine, 8 out of 10 bars, solid. Customer is going to pick one up and use that for over air.
Others around there work fine ch13. Go figure.
Dan

DanKurts

06-22-07, 01:47 AM

Dan - I think all these are using the same chip. There are now portable LCD TV's with ATSC & NTSC (but not for $110, yet). I am impressed with the tuner and software. The interface shows signal strength AND quality using 2 cell-phone-like bar graphs. It must be rejecting reflected signals and reporting the level/number of them on the second bar graph. Useful info if you're trying to decide on gain vs. beamwidth etc. When I have time I will compare antennas and see if the "quality" graph is real or baloney.

quarque
Great. I'll let you know how it stacks up on the meter, as well. Hope to have some time next week.
Thanks again for the heads up.
Dan

zyland

06-22-07, 04:18 AM

I've been looking at the Pinnacle Systems USB ATSC tuner link here (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8355656&st=USB+Tuner&type=product&id=1177112314566). If anyone has any experience with it, I'd love to hear thoughts. It's half the price of the previous mentioned one.

It was such a great price and I've been looking for one for a while so I went out and picked this up at Best Buy tonight. Here's my experience.

I've installed it on a AMD Sempron 3100+ (1800MHz) system with 1Gb RAM running Windows XP MCE.

Install went smoothly. Configuration utility picked up 24 digital channels. Almost all of the digital channels my TV picks up.

The TV playing software that comes with it Pinnacle Media Center didn't pick up any analog channels. That was weird. The digital channels started off playing OK. SD channels played OK, HD channels played OK, then I started seeing.

Player app would hang when changing channels. Sometimes never come back.
Player app would crash with an error in the "Pinnacle PVR Core - Video Control Server".
Player would sometimes start with the message that I was running at 1803MHz and that HDTV may not play correctly, do I want to continue.

Aside from that, the HDTV channels appeared to play correctly. When they weren't crashing.
Channel order is based on DTV channel frequency and there doesn't appear to be any way to change this.

The tuner is supposed to be compliant with Windows MCE, so I tried that as well. Unlike the bundled player, the MCE configuration was successfull at tuning all of the analog channels I normally get. If you are looking for a tuner to work with Windows Media Center and you are only interested in analog channels, this is the tuner for you. Unfortunately, none of the digital channels offered any more strength than zero. So, I couldn't watch any of the digital channels on MCE. All of the analog channels came in quite well.

If you are only looking for an analog channels on MCE, this is the tuner for you.

For me, I want digital channels and a player that doesn't crash all the time, I'm taking it back and looking for another tuner. Any suggestions?

Update: After quite a bit of updating drivers, I got the digital channels to show up in Windows XP Media Center. It's much better now. But there is still an issue of sporatic buffering. Not horrible, but definitely not smooth. I'll let you know if I can resolve this issue. If not, I'll probably end up returning it anyway.

fred2

06-22-07, 06:41 PM

quarque, et al
Reception in this area can get wierd for ch 13. I know it looks easy, but ....
Outdoors is best, and try different locations. It acts like your in a heavily wooded area, but close in. Signal level can be fairly good, but it gets chopped up. Had one on 3rd and 60th, heck of a time with ch 13. Tried lots of antennas and tricks. Ended up using the 4221, but had to bail on their old Samsung 360 satellite tuner, but my test tuner, the new H260F Samsung pulled it in just fine, 8 out of 10 bars, solid. Customer is going to pick one up and use that for over air.
Others around there work fine ch13. Go figure.
Dan

Interesting, I think :rolleyes:

I think 3rd/60th is a bit downslope to the north so they might have some things intervening. Is 13 "underpowered?" Or just flaky (sigh)

Then again, it could be my excess coax. Also split to to to tivo and tv. Since I think my location is somewhat set, I may attempt cutting and crimping if I think that I can manage that maneuver.

The current antenna is the Terk "winged" thingie - outdoor variety. Seems very DIRECTION specific. Then again, a question - how much is MY BODY affecting the "tuning" when I'm standing next to it trying to tweak its direction/angle? I'm not in front of it but is my MASS/conductivity an issue?

edited:

Currently, the antenna is attached to a fascia board (along roofline) runs down the house, into basement, across basement ceiling to a splitter. Since I have an amp in this setup (a radio shack with 4 out's but only two used), should the amp be located closer to the antenna, say where it enters the basement (and power is easily provided) rather than at the end of the 100 ft of coax? How 'bout the splitter. Right now it is close to the devices?

I do appreciate this. As a rabbit ears person for many years now, the last antenna I worried about was in Da Bronx on a 6-story apartment building!!! :eek:

bigpoppa206

06-22-07, 07:16 PM

Dave - no, it does not appear either Viore or Pinnacle do QAM. Only analog and digital channels from 2-69. I may hook it up to the cable and check but there is nothing in the manual about QAM.
Hence my choice for the Fusion package which DOES do QAM and all for only $150!

bigpoppa206

06-22-07, 07:18 PM

quarque

06-22-07, 07:45 PM

It was such a great price and I've been looking for one for a while so I went out and picked this up at Best Buy tonight. Here's my experience.

I've installed it on a AMD Sempron 3100+ (1800MHz) system with 1Gb RAM running Windows XP MCE.

Install went smoothly. Configuration utility picked up 24 digital channels. Almost all of the digital channels my TV picks up.

The TV playing software that comes with it Pinnacle Media Center didn't pick up any analog channels. That was weird. The digital channels started off playing OK. SD channels played OK, HD channels played OK, then I started seeing.

Player app would hang when changing channels. Sometimes never come back.
Player app would crash with an error in the "Pinnacle PVR Core - Video Control Server".
Player would sometimes start with the message that I was running at 1803MHz and that HDTV may not play correctly, do I want to continue.

Aside from that, the HDTV channels appeared to play correctly. When they weren't crashing.
Channel order is based on DTV channel frequency and there doesn't appear to be any way to change this.

The tuner is supposed to be compliant with Windows MCE, so I tried that as well. Unlike the bundled player, the MCE configuration was successfull at tuning all of the analog channels I normally get. If you are looking for a tuner to work with Windows Media Center and you are only interested in analog channels, this is the tuner for you. Unfortunately, none of the digital channels offered any more strength than zero. So, I couldn't watch any of the digital channels on MCE. All of the analog channels came in quite well.

If you are only looking for an analog channels on MCE, this is the tuner for you.

For me, I want digital channels and a player that doesn't crash all the time, I'm taking it back and looking for another tuner. Any suggestions?

Update: After quite a bit of updating drivers, I got the digital channels to show up in Windows XP Media Center. It's much better now. But there is still an issue of sporatic buffering. Not horrible, but definitely not smooth. I'll let you know if I can resolve this issue. If not, I'll probably end up returning it anyway.

Interesting. On the Viore unit I have you have to select Analog or Digital off a menu and then tell it to scan. It pulled in all the local analog and digital, just not all at the same time. The tuner is therefore modal in operation. BTW, I'm running XP home.

I did not have any crashing or other problems (software is at version 5.2 so may be more mature than Pinnacle). I did notice buffering issues on full HD signals. It appeared like the frame rate was cut in half when there was a lot of motion in the image. This may be due to my slow CPU and video (1.8G Pentium M). But no pronounced stuttering in video or sound. Maybe it was worth the extra $50.

DanKurts

06-23-07, 02:13 AM

Interesting, I think :rolleyes:

I think 3rd/60th is a bit downslope to the north so they might have some things intervening. Is 13 "underpowered?" Or just flaky (sigh)

Then again, it could be my excess coax. Also split to to to tivo and tv. Since I think my location is somewhat set, I may attempt cutting and crimping if I think that I can manage that maneuver.

The current antenna is the Terk "winged" thingie - outdoor variety. Seems very DIRECTION specific. Then again, a question - how much is MY BODY affecting the "tuning" when I'm standing next to it trying to tweak its direction/angle? I'm not in front of it but is my MASS/conductivity an issue?

edited:

Currently, the antenna is attached to a fascia board (along roofline) runs down the house, into basement, across basement ceiling to a splitter. Since I have an amp in this setup (a radio shack with 4 out's but only two used), should the amp be located closer to the antenna, say where it enters the basement (and power is easily provided) rather than at the end of the 100 ft of coax? How 'bout the splitter. Right now it is close to the devices?

I do appreciate this. As a rabbit ears person for many years now, the last antenna I worried about was in Da Bronx on a 6-story apartment building!!! :eek:

fred2
The Terk is not that swift, despite it's cool looks. It IS directional. Standing next to it or behind it won't make any major difference, but in front of it will. Ch13 has plenty of power, but comes from across the Sound, SW of Bremerton. Bit lower on the horizon, and a bit less power by the time it gets to you. It should be line of sight for where you are, but any nearby trees/houses may cause a little problem. The length of coax for you is no big deal. It's that ch's 4-5-7-16 are very strong at your place.
All tuners have a built in preamp, and they try to level out the signal level coming in, so it doesn't overload. (Called RF Automatic Gain Control) When one channel gets very strong, the preamp will turn its gain down. Problem is the preamp works on ALL the channels, so any weak channels will now be really weak. Ideally, you want to try and level out the channels before they hit your tuner. Real world, it's not that easy working in the UHF band. Even worse for you because of your location. Have another customer on 76th and Corliss, just north of Greenlake, and a 4221. Had to use a 20db attenuator because the signal was so hot. By the time the main channels got back down to a workable level, it put ch13 much lower than the rest, so he barely could get it.
You could misaim the antenna more to the west so it wouldn't get 4-5-7-16 as much, yet still get some of ch13. If that works, though, you'll probably loose ch's 9-11-22. They're more to the SE, and the antenna is designed to reject signals that far off it's normal path.
And then, having an amplifier on your antenna just makes it all worse. Overloading looks just like weak or no signal to your tuner. Try running it without the amp and splitter to one of your tuners, preferably not the Tivo, and see what happens. If the signal comes in okay, try the splitter in again. Shouldn't make that much difference, but you never know, might have a bad one.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

fred2

06-23-07, 09:19 AM

Dan:

Thanks for the great information. I now know a lot more how this stuff is treated by my equipment as it zooms across the skies. I had no idea that my tuner(s) were taming strong signals and, therefore, taming weak ones, at the same time. But one piece of information I experienced. With an indoor with amp that I tried, I noticed reception improved when I turned off the amp. Oh, I notice the manual suggests that the amp should be plugged in, even if it has to be turned off. Why would that be - just curious.

Now I also see why some folks go with cable - I would gather that the company smooths this stuff out (generally) before delivering to a home. I also have learned in my readings that the cable companies compress signals and so therefore, high definition may not be quite what people expect and that OTA actually can be better. I always thought cable was, well, perfect!!!! Delivering a perfect signal whereas OTA was worse but now I know that is not the case with digital stuff.

I probably will try another antenna when the budget recovers (G). If I get a chance I will tweak with the splitter and amp. (as an aside: last night, during the King evening news, for the first time, I got short audio/visual breakups for about 15 minutes. At least, first time I noticed. Happened both through the Tivo and separately through the tv - maybe their traffic helicopter was flying overhead!)

I am learning interesting stuff.

Again, thanks.

Whidbey

06-23-07, 09:54 PM

DanKurts

06-23-07, 10:18 PM

DanKurts

06-23-07, 10:51 PM

I drove all the way down to Fry's today and picked up a Channel Master 4228 antenna with high hopes. I expected it to out perform my old Rat Shack antenna. It didn't. Or I am doing something wrong.
I live near the corner of 76th Ave NE and Hwy 528 in Marysville.
The signal strength with the new antenna is about the same as the old one. I bought a brand new RG6 cable and ran it straight from the antenna to the back of the receiver and still no improvement. So I guess my existing cable run is fine.
The only thing I can think of is that my receiver may be going bad. When I first got it a few months ago, I could get channel 4.1, 16.1, and 33.1. Channels 5.1, 7.1, 13.1, 20.1 and 22.1 always came in clear. Now, channels 4.1, 5.1, 16.1 and 33.1 do not come in at all.
My receiver is a Sony HD200, an old Directv box. Has anyone here had similar problems with this box? Is it time for me to upgrade?

Thanks for any advice.

James

James
I agree, one would think you should see some improvement. As I mentioned before, I own an HD200. My folks are using it now, but I used it for about a year at home with an antenna. Before that, it belonged to a customer and it was used in a marginal area, out near Lacey. Only worked fair, with a big antenna and preamp. At my house, which is a fairly good location, it was just average for reception. I have seen a few HD200's that were exceptional, but most are just fair. It's very possible that it's getting tired. Just out of curiousity, do you have it in an air tight cabinet where it could get hot? Once they get cooked, they will do goofy things, even if you have them on an open shelf.
Also, the "strength" indicator is not really how much signal level you're getting, but how much signal compared to noise level. If the tuner is getting flakey, it may have trouble picking out a marginal signal from the noise. You could have improved the actual level, but also are picking up more noise, so it would appear to be the same.
Do you have a preamp on the antenna? You are in a good location, but at 31 miles, it's a ways out there. Normally, I would use a preamp out there. You could have been right on the edge of minimum signal level required by the tuner, seeing readings in the 70's or 80's, and all would look fine. Once you get just a hair below that, you will get nothing. That's the way it works.

Dan

Whidbey

06-25-07, 09:14 AM

I went and purchased a Samsung DTB260F and now I get all my signals, except for channels 9 and 33. I think with a bit of antenna rotating and scanning I may be able to find them though. No pre-amp yet. I kinda used up my TV budget on the reciever. I may not require one though, since I was able to pick up most of the channels to the north and south, even during last nights storm.
I'm still not sure if my Sony reciever is gone bad. After I hooked up the Samsung, I found that my antenna was not pointing the way that the rotator display said it was. It was pointed too far to the west. So that's probably why the signals were so weak. The Sony was inside a cabinet though, and was pretty hot when I pulled it out.

One more thing. Any idea what channel 14.5 is? I get a strong signal from it when pointing north, but no picture.

James

zyland

06-25-07, 06:13 PM

One more thing. Any idea what channel 14.5 is? I get a strong signal from it when pointing north, but no picture.
14.5 redirects to 20.5. This is KTBW (the local TBN affiliate). sub-channel 5 is the "Smile of a Child" subchannel.

pastiche

06-28-07, 03:05 PM

suomynona

06-28-07, 07:41 PM

suomynona
From what I've seen of Millenium, as of a year ago in downtown, they only had 4-5-7-9 in HD. Didn't try the QAM. Picture quality on the other channels was fair at best. You should be able to pick up 4-5-7-16 with a little Silver Sensor or small UHF antenna, NON-amplified, without any problem pointed at the towers through the window. The other channels are going to be blocked by the downtown buildings and your location. Try the QAM tuner on the cable just for fun and see what you get. Let us know what you find.
Dan
After a terrible HDTV buying experience online, I finally received my television a couple of days ago. The QAM is netting me the following channels via Millenium:

84.4 King5 Weather (Funny that this shows up, but they won't show KING or KONG...)
86.1 CBS
86.2 ABC
88.4 Hallmark
88.5 Fuel TV
88.20 through 88.6 Digital Radio Channels
89.1 Fox
89.2 MyQ2
89.3 The Tube
90.1 KCTS, 90.3 KCTS Kids, 90.4 KCTS Create (all three come in choppy)
104.6 Style
104.8 CSTV
111.1 FSN HD came on for one game a couple of nights ago. The rest of the time (both before and after) it has been just the color bars. I'm hoping they air more games. They didn't air yesterday's series finale on 111.1.

So, what to do now for someone who lives at the Denny Regrade? (4th & Denny)

Bring on Durant in HD!

artshotwell

06-28-07, 07:57 PM

fred2

06-28-07, 09:24 PM

<<KVOS-DT/35 Bellingham>>

For those of us still getting use to digital reception - what xx.x would be pressed to tune that on an OTA antenna?

Thanks

Whidbey

06-28-07, 10:46 PM

<<KVOS-DT/35 Bellingham>>

For those of us still getting use to digital reception - what xx.x would be pressed to tune that on an OTA antenna?

Thanks

Channel 12.1

For more info, try these sites: www.tvfool.com and www.2150.com/broadcast

They were very helpful for me when it came time to aim my antenna, much better than antennaweb.org.

James

suomynona

06-29-07, 06:29 AM

Later this morning when I get off work, I was hoping to go buy an indoor antenna for my 1st floor apartment. I'd prefer to get one at Radio Shack since I live in Belltown and there's still one downtown I think on 3rd avenue. I checked Radio Shack's website and they have multiple amplified indoor HDTV/UHF antennas. People have been suggesting to me in this thread to get NON-amplified. The only non-amplified UHF antenna listed on their website is this one (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017). I'm guessing that's the wrong one. (Or now that I've been reading this thread the last couple of hours, maybe it is the right one...)

At Frys, Terk has the TV-1, TV-2 and TV-4 in the non-amplified UHF antennas. Frys is about an hour and 15 minutes away on the bus though, so I'd probably just purchase whichever one is suggested to me from Amazon.

Also suggested was a Silver Sensor (http://www.amazon.com/Zenith-ZHDTV1-HDTV-UHF-Digital-Antenna/dp/B00006FXR9). Does Radio Shack carry this or do I need to order it from Amazon?

Basically, I'm looking for the best model antenna to buy. Something easy to use that I can depend on. Again, I'm in a first floor apartment with a clear view of Upper Queen Anne from my window.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions :)

Also, should I pick up a variable attenuator since I live so close to the towers in Upper Queen Anne?

fred2

06-29-07, 09:15 AM

I am far from an antenna expert but thought I'd mention the OLDER Radio Shack model that I'm using since they still have a number of models by other manufacturers that look almost just like it.

The pdf manual is still on the site if you search for:

15-1852

It is two rabbit ears and a loop with two position switch.

It is connected to a 20-inch Vizio digital tv. It is located in my UPSTAIRS den with a south view (Queen Anne). I'm in Wallingford/Greenlake.

Actually, I was also using it downstairs with a 40-inch sony but it was having some trouble with channel 33.1 and also 13.1 but pulled in the majors FINE. It was in an interior room with no particular view of anything as the window was 20 feet away.

I tried some ODD disk shaped one with a rotor (from Radio Shack but not necessarily their brand) and I tried that Silver Sensor one or another branded one just like it and neither improved reception over those rabbit ears mentioned above!!!

But I'm not on the first floor in urban density Belltown.

I have tried about 4 models and upstairs, none improved over the rabbit ears.

suomynona

06-29-07, 09:46 AM

Looks like I'll be going to the Radio Shack later this morning unless anyone else has any suggestions. Thank you Fred :)

ardsa

06-29-07, 06:02 PM

Channel 12.1

That would be correct except KVOS has not properly implemented their PSIP data. I have been receiving the digital broadcast for a week now in Vancouver, BC. My tuner has not remapped from 35.1 to 12.1.

You may need to try to tune to 35.1 for the time being.

Programing is identical to the analogue programing: 480i stereo, no upconvert, no sub-channels with poor picture quality.

quarque

06-29-07, 10:02 PM

DanKurts

06-30-07, 01:37 AM

Looks like I'll be going to the Radio Shack later this morning unless anyone else has any suggestions. Thank you Fred :)

suomynona
Fred and quarques suggestions are good. The switch on the 15-1852 will help with reflections and you won't have to move it around so much. An attenuator shouldn't be needed.
Dan

quarque

06-30-07, 09:52 PM

From http://www.nwbroadcasters.com/:

06/28/07 - KVOS-DT/35 Bellingham has boosted power and moved its transmitter from the temporary site in the city's downtown area to Mount Constitution at 48-40-50 122-50-22, near its analog channel 12 location. FCC records list the ERP as 580 kW at 799 meters HAAT. The new digital signal should be widely available in Northwest Washington and Southwest British Columbia, including Vancouver, Victoria and Seattle.

I felt inspired today to go up on the roof and swap out my 4221 for the RS yagi I have (15-2160) and point it at Mt. Constitution. Still could not pull in 35 even with my new USB tuner by Viore. I have houses and trees to the north that are higher than my antenna so that is probably killing it. Even so, the Viore pulled in all the locals even with the antenna pointing the "wrong" way. I am really impressed with this little wonder - much better tuner than the Samsung T150 I used to use.

rdn

07-01-07, 09:31 PM

I see today that KIRO's local news broadcast is now 16:9 widescreen. The picture doesn't look that sharp and I wonder if it is just 16:9 SD uprezzed to 1020i (which is still an improvement over 4:3).

rdn

07-01-07, 09:49 PM

Actually some of the remote footage (Mariners locker room) appears to have better resolution than the in-studio stuff.

PeggyD

07-01-07, 10:49 PM

Actually some of the remote footage (Mariners locker room) appears to have better resolution than the in-studio stuff.

The 5 o'clock newscast kept jumping back & forth between 4:3 & stretched in 16:9. The 6 o'clock newscast was much better. I actually couldn't see much difference watching KIRO & KING side-by-side on my Dish 622 in picture-in-picture mode, but I'm not a big HD fanatic.

BIslander

07-02-07, 11:39 AM

The 5 o'clock newscast kept jumping back & forth between 4:3 & stretched in 16:9. The 6 o'clock newscast was much better. I actually couldn't see much difference watching KIRO & KING side-by-side on my Dish 622 in picture-in-picture mode, but I'm not a big HD fanatic.
KIRO is 16:9 SD for studio cameras and field video, the same as KOMO. Weather graphics are still 4:3. KING is the only station actually doing HD.

rdn

07-02-07, 03:41 PM

KIRO is 16:9 SD for studio cameras and field video, the same as KOMO. Weather graphics are still 4:3. KING is the only station actually doing HD.

That's what I figured. KOMO looks sharper, but KIRO's equipment is apparently new (although they had some stuff from Seafair last year in 16:9) and maybe they are still fine-tuning things. KCTS (9.1) has pretty good 16:9 SD on the in-studio stuff, considering it is probably bit-starved.

Bob

Lionanimal

07-05-07, 01:51 AM

Thank you to KING 5 TV (Seattle) engineers, technicians, crew, commentators and executives for the live high definition broadcast of the July 4, 2007 fireworks spectaluar from Lake Union. Thank you Washington Mutual (WaMu) for sponsoring the show.

Watching the Over-The-Air broadcast was awesome. I did enjoy the local Seattle fireworks show more than the recording (tape) of New York, Chicago and Washington fireworks shows (on channels 5, 22 and 9) that preceeded the local Seattle, Washington show. It was awesome that King 5, NBC, KMYQ 22, Fox (?) and KCTS, PBS all ponied up for high definition broadcasts of fireworks this year. Thank you all.

I deeply appreciate the fact that I could enjoy it from home instead of with 260000 friends around Lake Union. I'll be able to get to work in the morning after a good nights rest, instead of fighting thru six rush hours worth of traffic jams to arrive home at 2 A.M. (if I had attended the event in person).

98% percent of the shots were framed terrifically. 99.8% of the transmission was smooth with a few fractions of macro-blocking and only one loss of signal. It is a commendable effort for live field work.

Also, thank you for allowing us to enjoy the music and crowd reactions for the duration thru audio uninterrupted by expert commentary. King 5 TV you all did a great job.

Sure am glad I have OTA antenna in additonal to Comcast. Have not watched the Comcast DVR recording of the show yet, but intend to let friends and family watch the show at our place over the next few days.

Leo Henton

Electric T-Bird

07-05-07, 03:01 PM

I concur. Having recorded and watched KING and KOMO on my Comcast HD DVR, KING's was very noticably superior to KOMO.

Now if we can work on making the subwoofer work harder. :)

Joe Hendrix

07-06-07, 11:44 AM

I also concur with Lionanimal. What a great show. A real big thanks to all. Thank-you for embracing the High Def. format. It was a real treat.

GGG

07-07-07, 01:42 PM

I felt inspired today to go up on the roof and swap out my 4221 for the RS yagi I have (15-2160) and point it at Mt. Constitution. Still could not pull in 35 even with my new USB tuner by Viore. I have houses and trees to the north that are higher than my antenna so that is probably killing it. Even so, the Viore pulled in all the locals even with the antenna pointing the "wrong" way. I am really impressed with this little wonder - much better tuner than the Samsung T150 I used to use.

Anyone else in Greater Seattle have any luck locking in KVOS on 12 0r 35?
I'm going to give it a try today with one of my Blonder Tongue UHF's.

GGG

07-07-07, 06:45 PM

Anyone else in Greater Seattle have any luck locking in KVOS on 12 0r 35?
I'm going to give it a try today with one of my Blonder Tongue UHF's.

Well, in answer to my own question I was able to lock 12.1 right away with my Blonder Tongue & Sharp 32 LCD with a built NTSC tuner. I live near Shilshole Bay in Ballard and just pointed it a bit NW and voila! The antenna is very directional and was only able to pick up KVOS and nothing else but analog crap. I have another identical Blonder Tongue pointed S and get all of the usual suspects in digital. Sure would be great if CBUT did something along those lines. Thanks for the tip-- pastiche & quarque...

artshotwell

07-07-07, 10:14 PM

Anyone else in Greater Seattle have any luck locking in KVOS on 12 0r 35?
I'm going to give it a try today with one of my Blonder Tongue UHF's.
I didn't think there was really anything worth watching on KVOS.

fatejd

07-08-07, 04:04 PM

Can we keep a list of available OTA channels in a post? Or, is there one?

Right now, I'm getting 4-1,5-1,5-2,7-1,7-2,9-1,9-3,11-1,13-1,16-1,22-1,22-2,33-1,42-1,51-1 and I think some others that I didn't really want to watch, so I got rid of them. Are there any other "secondary" channels on the regular networks I'm missing?

Oh, and my location is on Novelty Hill in Redmond, up in Redmond Ridge...

Budget_HT

07-08-07, 04:46 PM

AMMO

07-08-07, 05:05 PM

Is there a need when the anntenea web will show you what is available in our local area, see http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

Dreamwriter

07-08-07, 05:41 PM

What's the best non-directional, non-amplified antenna available now? My problem is I live right in the heart of downtown, so I'm really close to the transmitters...but I have no line of sight at all. I'm on the 10th floor up on Boren and Union, apartment facing east, and there are buildings between me and all transmitters; any signal I get is bounced off of buildings and coming in from multiple directions.

The channels I've been able to get with a Terk HDTVi are 5,9,11 when I'm lucky, and 22 (that's with the antenna almost at the ceiling pointing north). None of those ever gets better than 50% signal. I can't get 4 or 13 no matter what I try, and 7 is rare.

pastiche

07-08-07, 09:41 PM

Can we keep a list of available OTA channels in a post? Or, is there one?

I think it's been years since there was an accurate list posted with any regularity, so here goes. I've thrown one together, since I've kept one of the QAM channels posted on Seattle - Comcast for a couple of years, and the data's mostly the same.

Things to note:

The "South Sound", "North Sound" and "Lower Mainland" sections were gathered from posts here and elsewhere. I do not receive those channels.

I've tried to give accurate PSIP information, even when the PSIP information that's broadcast is incorrect (i.e. KHCV and KWDK.)

DanKurts

07-09-07, 09:24 PM

quarque

07-09-07, 10:24 PM

quarque
As I recall, you have an E85 tuner, right? I just had a wierd thing happen to mine. Lost ch's 4&5, but all others coming in okay. Go into local menu, though, and I have 100 on both (ch38 & 48). Did another scan, nothing found for them, others are there, though. Okay, mines an oldy, so I just wrote it off and figured I'll break out another used one from my stash. Then I get two calls from old customers, one with a SRT151, other a 451. Theirs are doing the same thing. Called a few other people, that have other tuners, they're all okay...... Wierd. Thought I would see what you or anyone else with Samsungs using OTA are getting for 4 or 5.
Thanks
Dan

Dan - nope, it's a Sammy T150. But it's gathering dust in the spare room since I went digital cable several months back (trees got too thick for reliable reception on some channels). I only use my Viore USB tuner on the roof antenna now and 4,5 are fine. Heck, even on the 5" whip antenna supplied with the Viore I get all the locals. Did you ever get one?

DanKurts

07-10-07, 12:12 AM

quarque
No, been babysitting the roofers and remodeling dudes. Finally got done today. Hope to finally get caught up and then try one.
However, my E85 came back, and so did my both of my customers, about the same time. I wonder if it had anything to do with the power outage they had on QA hill. Both channels still showed they were receiving signals on the strength meter, but no one home. Like carrier was alive, just no data. Wierd. Only the Samsungs...... Oh, well. Suns out, Mariners are winning, and my bride just brought me a frosty drink.
Life's good !
Thanks for the reply.
Dan

zyland

07-12-07, 02:19 AM

Update: After quite a bit of updating drivers, I got the digital channels to show up in Windows XP Media Center. It's much better now. But there is still an issue of sporatic buffering. Not horrible, but definitely not smooth. I'll let you know if I can resolve this issue. If not, I'll probably end up returning it anyway.

More updating. I've been using the Media Center Extender on my Xbox 360 and the results are much better.

Positives:
playback on Xbox 360 much smoother than playback on my PC. No buffering issues
Program Guide information for the following HD channels KOMO, KING, KIRO, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG and KMYQ
The Program Guide information is free
Some nice features like "Season Pass" (although they don't call it that), Search for titles, etc.

Negatives
Program Guide information for KCTS HD is missing. Actually Program Guide information for all subchannels after the first is missing.
fast forward/reverse isn't as responsive as it should be.

Joe Hendrix

07-12-07, 02:16 PM

More updating. I've been using the Media Center Extender on my Xbox 360 and the results are much better.

Positives:
playback on Xbox 360 much smoother than playback on my PC. No buffering issues
Program Guide information for the following HD channels KOMO, KING, KIRO, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG and KMYQ
The Program Guide information is free
Some nice features like "Season Pass" (although they don't call it that), Search for titles, etc.

Negatives
Program Guide information for KCTS HD is missing. Actually Program Guide information for all subchannels after the first is missing.
fast forward/reverse isn't as responsive as it should be.

If you need to find out what's happening on the subchannels, I would recommend going to TitanTV.com. Don't waste your time trying to get MCE to display the subchannels. This is a known "feature" of MCE. :rolleyes:

Rassilon

07-13-07, 07:50 PM

rdn

07-13-07, 09:48 PM

(sorry if this or something close has been asked before, but there are too many posts to read through ;)

I'm currently looking at making the switch to DirectTV (currently have comcast) and am a bit confused by what I would need to get to get OTA signals for my locals. First off I live in west seattle (Highland Park area) and from looking at antennaweb.org it looks like most channels are within ~7 miles at 340°-360°. The exception to this would be fox which is 22miles away at 255°. My question is what would I need to get OTA up and going?. I had briefly looked into this when I lived in florida and a number of people recommended the silver sensor but if I remember correctly that won't pick up fox since it''s being broadcast via VHF. Any suggestions for what I might want to look for? Also will the 22 miles for fox be a problem for me?

Any input would be appreciated!
Mike.

Analog or digital? All of the current Seattle-area digital stations are UHF. KCPQ's digital signal (13.1) is actually on channel 18 rignt now, but will revert to 13 when analog goes away. I think KCTS (9) will also (possibly one or two others). Since these are upper-VHF, UHF antennas may still be practical.

Directv carries all of the Seattle analog signals plus KOMO, KING, KIRO and KCPQ in HD and probably will add more digital locals when the new satellites (the first of which was launched last week) are functioning.

Bob

GGG

07-13-07, 10:39 PM

(sorry if this or something close has been asked before, but there are too many posts to read through ;)

I'm currently looking at making the switch to DirectTV (currently have comcast) and am a bit confused by what I would need to get to get OTA signals for my locals. First off I live in west seattle (Highland Park area) and from looking at antennaweb.org it looks like most channels are within ~7 miles at 340°-360°. The exception to this would be fox which is 22miles away at 255°. My question is what would I need to get OTA up and going?. I had briefly looked into this when I lived in florida and a number of people recommended the silver sensor but if I remember correctly that won't pick up fox since it''s being broadcast via VHF. Any suggestions for what I might want to look for? Also will the 22 miles for fox be a problem for me?

Any input would be appreciated!
Mike.

If you are switching for HD content, go Dish instead of Direct, more HD channels, better picture, and the best DVR (622). You can run your OTA through diplexers to the 622, or just get your locals through the dish (except 13 in HD).

pastiche

07-15-07, 05:46 PM

Analog or digital? All of the current Seattle-area digital stations are UHF. KCPQ's digital signal (13.1) is actually on channel 18 rignt now, but will revert to 13 when analog goes away. I think KCTS (9) will also (possibly one or two others). Since these are upper-VHF, UHF antennas may still be practical.

After the cutoff:

KCTS returns to 9 from 41
KSTW returns to 11 from 36
KVOS returns to 12 from 35
KCPQ returns to 13 from 18
KWPX returns to 33 from 32

I also noticed that some translators have applied for (or have been issued, in some cases) CPs for their -LD buildouts. These include KIRO, KCPQ, and KMYQ's owned-and-operated translators. Seattle LPTV K68DL has also applied for an -LD on 8.

Whidbey

07-15-07, 11:12 PM

After the cutoff:

KCTS returns to 9 from 41
KSTW returns to 11 from 36
KVOS returns to 12 from 35
KCPQ returns to 13 from 18

Wonderful. So does this mean I may have to go back to a UHF/VHF combo antenna when the switch is made? I'm using a CM 4228 antenna now.

James

quarque

07-16-07, 12:29 AM

Wonderful. So does this mean I may have to go back to a UHF/VHF combo antenna when the switch is made? I'm using a CM 4228 antenna now.

James

Possibly. The 4228 still has some gain in the high VHF band but you won't know until you try it after they switch. And that won't happen until about 2009...

zyland

07-17-07, 01:47 AM

After the cutoff:

KCTS returns to 9 from 41
KSTW returns to 11 from 36
KVOS returns to 12 from 35
KCPQ returns to 13 from 18
KWPX returns to 33 from 32

I also noticed that some translators have applied for (or have been issued, in some cases) CPs for their -LD buildouts. These include KIRO, KCPQ, and KMYQ's owned-and-operated translators. Seattle LPTV K68DL has also applied for an -LD on 8.

Where did you find this information? I was looking in the fcc website for this information and didn't find it. Any information about the low VHF channels?

pastiche

07-17-07, 09:10 AM

Where did you find this information? I was looking in the fcc website for this information and didn't find it. Any information about the low VHF channels?

They've been publishing it piecemeal, without updating the database, unfortunately. Go the following URL, and search for the text "channel election" on that page. You'll find a good bit of information spread over those documents:

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

KVOS is listed as having elected to remain on 35, but that information seems contradictory to what an engineer posted on digitalhome.ca's Vancouver/Victoria OTA board.

For the CPs for DTV translators, check the database at the following URL:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Type in your Latitude/Longitude, and do a search out 100km or so, filtering for -LD as the service-type.

It doesn't look as if there's anything scheduled to return to low-band VHF in Washington, but, nationwide, there are a few. The most glaring example I found was WPVI in Philadelphia having elected to move back to channel 6 from their out-of-core 64. Ouch.

Spike89

07-17-07, 04:03 PM

FYI... I finally gave up on trying to get every HD channel OTA, my house was starting to look like an NSA listening post and DirecTV's customer service made me so mad I switched to Comcast.

PQ on the digitals on Comcast still isn't as good as OTA. Don't know if they use more compression or what. Just not quite as crisp.

Oh yeah, you still can't really get KOMO reliably in Indianola from my experience. I got a newer TV with an integrated tuner and I get it better than with the Sony HD300, but still not in the late afternoon.

-Mike

Budget_HT

07-17-07, 04:22 PM

...It doesn't look as if there's anything scheduled to return to low-band VHF in Washington, but, nationwide, there are a few. The most glaring example I found was WPVI in Philadelphia having elected to move back to channel 6 from their out-of-core 64. Ouch.
I was under the impression that the low VHF channels (2-6) would no longer be used for OTA broadcast television.

Am I mistaken?

pastiche

07-17-07, 05:04 PM

I was under the impression that the low VHF channels (2-6) would no longer be used for OTA broadcast television.

Am I mistaken?

There are a few allocations in the low-band, even post-transition.

quarque

07-17-07, 09:15 PM

After the cutoff:

KCTS returns to 9 from 41
KSTW returns to 11 from 36
KVOS returns to 12 from 35
KCPQ returns to 13 from 18
KWPX returns to 33 from 32

I also noticed that some translators have applied for (or have been issued, in some cases) CPs for their -LD buildouts. These include KIRO, KCPQ, and KMYQ's owned-and-operated translators. Seattle LPTV K68DL has also applied for an -LD on 8.
Are these FINAL round cast in stone or still in the application phase? Last I saw they were not final.

pastiche

07-17-07, 11:11 PM

Are these FINAL round cast in stone or still in the application phase? Last I saw they were not final.

Good question. They're titling things "tenatative," but there's no mention of a fourth round of elections, either.

LewH

07-19-07, 04:33 PM

DanKurts

07-19-07, 10:29 PM

Hi Dan,
I've had the Samsung DBT-H260F for two weeks and am using it with my Pioneer 940.
The Samsung pulls in the channels with better performance regarding, stability, lack of macro blocking, and drop out. I don't believe it provides the same quality picture, i.e, the PRO 940
seems to lack depth and some detail, even with the Samsung set on 1080. These apparent
degrades from the original in set tuner, while I wish they didn't exist, do not become a deal breaker for using the 260 with the 940. So, my verdict is that the Samsung has a much more stable and stronger tuning platform than the Pioneer and is definitely a keeper.
PS.
We are having the Bottlhead/ Pacific Northwest Audiophile Society get together at the Vashon Island Eagles on Sat. Aug. 24th, from 10 until lack of interest. I expect lots of interesting gear put into rotation, and I'll be serving stuff (hot dogs, burgers, off the BBQ).
Maybe you'd mull over bringing some of your OTA equipment. There is a Plasma screen there and I bet it would be of major interest to some to see a demo of OTA performance.
The elevation is great and should have easy access to Queen Anne and Capitol Hill.
Regards,
Lew

Lew
Sounds like a possibility for antenna stuff. I ususally have it all with me in the van anyway.
Glad to hear the Samsung is working for you. Not surprised about the picture quality. With the tuner being built in, and a direct link to the display circuits, it's bound to be better. And Pioneer makes quality stuff, as well. The Samsung is a basic piece, so outputs are most likely average in quality. I couldn't tell much difference on my 8 year old Panasonic plasma, and my regular HD tuner is old, too.
At least you're working until the tree project gets completed.
See you on the 24th.
Dan

DanKurts

07-20-07, 01:17 AM

Thought you guys might like this pix.
Now this is what I call a real Antenna Survey rig !
Dan

quarque

07-20-07, 07:04 PM

Thought you guys might like this pix.
Now this is what I call a real Antenna Survey rig !
Dan
Impressive array but how is the "drive-ability"? :D

Spike89

07-20-07, 07:12 PM

Impressive array but how is the "drive-ability"? :D

You just rig some sheets from the bays and you got yourself a true land-yacht :)

litzdog911

07-21-07, 07:51 PM

Thought you guys might like this pix.
Now this is what I call a real Antenna Survey rig !
Dan

Looks like those antennas are all cut to receive just one frequency. What's this photo from?

allen98311

07-23-07, 11:48 PM

robglasser

07-24-07, 12:54 AM

Budget_HT

07-24-07, 01:08 AM

Down for me, using HD OTA on a DirecTV HD TiVo.

Seishi

07-24-07, 01:09 AM

DanKurts

07-24-07, 01:43 AM

Looks like those antennas are all cut to receive just one frequency. What's this photo from?

litzdog911
Not sure about where or what, but looks like a Euro styled van from 70's or earlier. A buddy sent it to me. He belongs to the VW Westy club, surfs the VW sites from Europe, so most likely from there.
In the 70's, I had a crank up 30' tower, like a Rohn style, on a small 2 wheel trailer. That was a pain with just one antenna. The guy in the photo is really dedicated to do all that!
Love the sail idea!! Very Eco friendly transport........
Dan

zyland

07-24-07, 03:00 AM

Anyone else having trouble with KSTW 11 Digital? I cannot find the signal today. I have my computer setup to record Peoples Court at 2:00, and it didn't record. I still can't get the signal. I tried it on my ATI HDTV Wonder and the Samsung HDTV.
No signal on this channel for me as well. analog KSTW-TV still comes in just fine. I'm in Redmond. I just sent email to kstw letting them know several people aren't getting this signal. And their response

"We are experiencing technical difficulties which we hope to resolve sometime today. We apologize for the inconvenience."

Hopefully before the Mariner's game tonight

Just checked when I came home. It's up and the Mariner's game is on. in SD :(

rdn

07-24-07, 03:57 PM

It's still out here, just before 1 PM. KIRO's digital signal appears to be gone also. KOMO and KONG, which are the ones I usually have reception problems with, are coming in fine (but with normal weak signal strength). KING, KCTS and KMYQ are booming in, as is normal.

Bob

rdiotte

07-25-07, 11:49 AM

Anyone else having trouble with KSTW 11 Digital? I cannot find the signal today. I have my computer setup to record Peoples Court at 2:00, and it didn't record. I still can't get the signal. I tried it on my ATI HDTV Wonder and the Samsung HDTV.

KSTW TV lost a low voltage power supply in its' digital transmitter early monday morning, July 23rd. We had a new part flown in by Harris Corp. and we've been back on the air since around 1 pm Tuesday, July 24th. Sorry for the inconvenience. :)

RD
CE, KSTW

Tweak48

07-28-07, 10:25 PM

Thought you guys might like this pix.
Now this is what I call a real Antenna Survey rig !
Dan

Kinda looks like our head-end for North Utah Community TV where I was an installer during the early '70s. All big high gain Yagi's cut for low band VHF signals 90 miles away. Way before sat feeds.

Our major service call in the winter were "suck outs"; center conductor copper retracting due to sub -30 degree temps overnight. Pulled up to a balmy 0 degrees at noon!! :eek: :eek:

orttauq

07-30-07, 04:33 PM

What is the general opinion on the SMARTenna 3000A for this area?
I see that most users have the 4221 or 4228 but antennaweb says I need a small omni in the Kirkland area.

quarque

07-30-07, 09:55 PM

What is the general opinion on the SMARTenna 3000A for this area?
I see that most users have the 4221 or 4228 but antennaweb says I need a small omni in the Kirkland area.
In general, omni-directional antennas are not good for digital reception. The receiver would be battling all sorts of reflected signals from all directions. These show up as many out-of-phase signals and it has to try to pick THE best signal of them and lock onto it. The best solution is a directional antenna and then add a rotor if you need multiple directions. The 4221 should work well for you in theory because it is fairly directional but still can cover a 90-degree spread.

But there are things that will cause problems for any antenna (hills, trees, buildings, etc.). Generally, outside mount is better than inside and higher is better than lower. If you're on a hill with your antenna 25+ feet off the ground you have an excellent shot at OTA. The first step is to post your nearest cross streets so we can check the topography.

P.S. you drive your Audi backwards?

orttauq

07-31-07, 01:53 PM

rdn

07-31-07, 03:32 PM

Thanks for the info...that make sense. I am higher up with a mast 10 feet higher than my 3rd story roof but I am dealing with lots of trees. I will look to get a 4221 then...any suggestions for a local source?

You might try Fry's. I saw a couple of CM antennas there, but don't recall the models. Stark Electronics is a good online source.

Good call on the Audi connection...the name stumps most people.

He was reading it with a mirror.

robglasser

08-01-07, 02:30 PM

You might try Fry's. I saw a couple of CM antennas there, but don't recall the models. Stark Electronics is a good online source.

A couple years ago when I was antenna shopping Frys had the 4228 but not the 4221. There was one place in Everett that sold them but only special order and it took a week or so to get them. They've since gone out of business I believe.

I ended up ordering mine from Solid Signal online, it was cheaper and got here in about 4 - 5 days. My neighbor did the same thing last year.

Rico66

08-02-07, 06:11 PM

A couple years ago when I was antenna shopping Frys had the 4228 but not the 4221. There was one place in Everett that sold them but only special order and it took a week or so to get them. They've since gone out of business I believe.

I ended up ordering mine from Solid Signal online, it was cheaper and got here in about 4 - 5 days. My neighbor did the same thing last year.
That's correct. But it seems that Frys changed this recently. I also noticed them having a 4221 in stock a couple of weeks ago (located on the right side after entering the store)

fred2

08-02-07, 10:00 PM

robglasser

08-03-07, 01:16 AM

That's correct. But it seems that Frys changed this recently. I also noticed them having a 4221 in stock a couple of weeks ago (located on the right side after entering the store)

Good to know that we can get the 4221 locally now. I'll have to remember that the next time someone asks me about an antenna.

robglasser

08-03-07, 01:16 AM

For about the last week, King5.1 has been pixelating. I don't know when it may have started having been away for 3 weeks. But I get sound dropouts and also total dropouts and pixelation. Other channels seem okay.

I don't know if it is the summer weather, trees now in full leaf, other issues or maybe THEM?

Oh, OTA just to be clear (and unpixelated!)

Anyone else.

I have not had any issues with KING 5.1 lately, also OTA.

DanKurts

08-03-07, 01:40 AM

Thanks for the info...that make sense. I am higher up with a mast 10 feet higher than my 3rd story roof but I am dealing with lots of trees. I will look to get a 4221 then...any suggestions for a local source?

Good call on the Audi connection...the name stumps most people.

Hey!
Caught your act a few months ago. Very cool!
Sent it along to my buddy that's a Quattro nut, has an older one.
You're famous!
Dan

Whidbey

08-03-07, 02:37 PM

For about the last week, King5.1 has been pixelating. I don't know when it may have started having been away for 3 weeks. But I get sound dropouts and also total dropouts and pixelation. Other channels seem okay.

I don't know if it is the summer weather, trees now in full leaf, other issues or maybe THEM?

Oh, OTA just to be clear (and unpixelated!)

Anyone else.

KING5 has always been the most difficult station for me to recieve. I usually cannot recieve it at all on nice days in the afternoon. If the weather is crappy, then it comes in OK.

James

Tailwalk

08-03-07, 04:28 PM

Tailwalk

08-03-07, 05:44 PM

I've been experimenting with my antenna setup as of late and the amazing thing is, the higher I raise the antenna from my roof the worse the reception....weird.
Anyways, generally I've been very happy with my system(except for when channel KOMO cutoff the last minute of the world soccer championship game, I almost had a heart attack) :eek:

rdn

08-04-07, 10:18 PM

I've been experimenting with my antenna setup as of late and the amazing thing is, the higher I raise the antenna from my roof the worse the reception....weird.

There are probably some reflections causing interference (multipath). If so, moving it even higher should make the signal stronger again. Try left/right, forward/back as well.

Tailwalk

08-05-07, 12:41 AM

Unfortunately I can't raise it any higher than I tried....another unexplainable thing is that I tried the DB8 and 43XG and both didn't work as well as the smaller cheaper cm4221, guess I got lucky when I first setup the system and inadvertantly picked the best one for me. The only channel I have trouble with quite frequently is komo 4... if I direct the antenna to get all the other channels I barely get channel 4. oh well, guess I can't have my cake and eat it too.

happy seafair weekend

rdn

08-05-07, 01:59 AM

Channel 4 is problematic for me also (as is 16). I understand from this forum that the antenna for digital is down on the side of the tower, but will be moved to the top after the 2/2009 transition, which should help.

Whidbey

08-06-07, 07:43 PM

The only channel I have trouble with quite frequently is komo 4... if I direct the antenna to get all the other channels I barely get channel 4.

A friend of mine who lives in South Everett and also uses the 4221 has the same problem with KOMO. If he aims his antenna to get 4 good, he can't pick up 13. If he aims for 13, he can't get 4 strong.
I'm in Marysville and can get KOMO no problem with my 4228 when it's aimed towards Queen Anne hill, and have no problems with 13.
I would suggest you get a rotator if you want to get KOMO.

James

robglasser

08-07-07, 11:52 AM

A friend of mine who lives in South Everett and also uses the 4221 has the same problem with KOMO. If he aims his antenna to get 4 good, he can't pick up 13. If he aims for 13, he can't get 4 strong.
I'm in Marysville and can get KOMO no problem with my 4228 when it's aimed towards Queen Anne hill, and have no problems with 13.
I would suggest you get a rotator if you want to get KOMO.

James

I live in the Mill Creek area and use a 4221 and pick up both 4 and 13 without issues. I am using a Dish Network ViP622. With 13 I get a signal strength in the 80's and with 4 I get a strength around 96 if I remember correctly (scale out of 100). There was a very very small sweet spot that allowed me to get both consistently. At first I would periodically lose 13. What I did to dial it in was turn it to get a max signal on 13, found a point of reference. Did the same for channel 4, then set it between the 2. At that point I starting turning it more east until it negatively impacted channel 4. Lastly I turned it slightly back to the south to stabilize 4. At that point everything was solid and has been for over 2 years now. My antenna is at the top of a 5 foot mast attached to the peak of my roof, single story house.

KRyanx

08-07-07, 03:55 PM

... The only channel I have trouble with quite frequently is komo 4... if I direct the antenna to get all the other channels I barely get channel 4. ...

I had trouble with digital channels 5, 9 and 13 on the Kent east hill using a 4221. I added a CM preamp (CM 7777) and have good luck since then. It has a really low noise figure (2 db for UHF). I tried putting the amp inside at first to see what happened and it worked so well that I didn't even bother attaching the amp to the mast to be close to the antenna at it's supposed to be installed. I've got a pretty short run though.

The antenna is roughly aimed in between the two locations, though more towards capitol hill.

fred2

08-16-07, 12:59 AM

King had still be pixelating and frankly getting me more and more irritated. Since I had purchased a DB2 antenna a bit ago to replace the Terk HD amplified, during the evening news while watching pixels and sound dropouts regularly, I quickly attached the DB2 just below the Terk, unscrewed the coax from one and connected to the other. So far so good. Instant relief. I watched another hour of King and no problems at all.

I will continue to review the situation and see how it goes.

I did not go down to the basement so I don't recall what's what with the amplifier. That will occur tomorrow.

woodway

08-21-07, 01:45 AM

Good to know that we can get the 4221 locally now. I'll have to remember that the next time someone asks me about an antenna.

I went to Fry's yesterday to see if I could pick up a CM4221.

They had a few omni antennas and a couple small (indoor) directional antennas on the shelves to the right as you enter. The selection was VERY small. Leave that area and walk towards the back of the store, you'll come across a stack of CM4228's in the aisle. I happened across them by accident as they are in the located middle of the area holding computer furniture - not very close too all the other antenna's.

I could not find a CM4221 anywhere, and when I managed to track down an associate to ask about CM4221 the kid basically had no idea what I was talking about. He looked young enough that he probably has never seen a TV antenna :D

I looked everywhere in Fry's and never found any 4221's so I ordered one online from Solid Signal. Ordered it last night and it shipped today.

BTW - Fry's is selling the CM4228 for $68.95.

Whidbey

08-22-07, 10:41 PM

I looked everywhere in Fry's and never found any 4221's so I ordered one online from Solid Signal. Ordered it last night and it shipped today.

BTW - Fry's is selling the CM4228 for $68.95.

That's what I paid for my 4228 at Fry's. As for the 4221, you're just as well off to order it online than to by it local. The reason I bought the 4228 at Fry's was because the shipping was so much that it made it worthwhile to by it local. The shipping on the 4221 is reasonable.

James

Spike89

08-26-07, 12:14 AM

Since I've gone to comcast, I've taken down my various antennae hardware and am offering it all FREE to whoever is willing to come pick it up (Dan, need some testing spares?). I've got a Winegard HD9085P (http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD9085P.pdf) yagi. It has an input for connecting a separate VHF antenna. Also have 2 half-sections of the grey Ratshack mast (about 4' each). All are in great condition. I live in Kitsap. PM me if you're interested.

EDIT: All stuff has been given to new homes. Thanks to all that took it off my hands and enjoy!

tbb9216

08-27-07, 04:22 AM

hi, new to the forum. im sure this is somewhere in the 102 pages, but i dont know how to narrow it down to exactly what im looking for.

basically, i have this setup:

32" bravia (year and a half old)
miglia tvmicro hd (using OTA)

the miglia came with a cheap little freebie antenna, i bought a philips mant510 off of amazon after reading a lot of positive reviews (now they arent so positive a month and a half later)

the cheap antenna seems to pick up more channels than the amplified philips, however, they both pick up quite a bit more channels connected directly to th bravia than to the miglia, is there a reason for this?

also, i am DIRECTLY downtown with direct line of site with queen anne high school and the towers, so i get all channels pretty clearly EXCEPT for fox (13.1), which i get when i hook directly into the bravia, but i cant pick up for the life of me when connected to the miglia

i have a somewhat decent view of capitol hill, there are buildings in the way, but im sure its hitting somewhere up there

please help!

KRyanx

08-27-07, 04:05 PM

tbb9216

08-27-07, 04:16 PM

quarque

08-27-07, 10:05 PM

@kryanx -

thanks for the info. i thought i had read something on the first page of this forum about capitol hill, but it would make more sense that it is across the sound. i will definatelly look into this 'silver sensor'.

but what explains my tv getting stronger signals than the miglia? is that just how things work?

Digital tuners can vary a lot because of chip designs and generations. So it is not surprising one works better than the other. the TV probably has a better and more costly design. As for CH 13 - post your nearest cross streets and I can check your line-of-sight to their tower near Bremerton. They used to simulcast off Cap Hill a few years back but had to stop because of legal issues.

Whidbey

08-28-07, 02:19 PM

tbb9216 - Enter your location at www.tvfool.com. It seems to give more realistic results than antennaweb.com. For whatever reason, antennaweb always gives me far less results that what's real.

James

Chuck Ebby

08-28-07, 03:25 PM

Channel 13 is not broadcast from capitol hill. It's antenna is across the sound, so the amplified antenna provides the better signal. You might try the "silver sensor" antenna. There have been good things said about it.

Also, you can check out http://www.antennaweb.org for more information about broadcast antenna locations, strengths, etc. relative to you specific location. It's pretty helpful.

Doesn't amplification have more to do with boosting a signal with a long run from the antenna to the TV than boosting signal from weaker stations? In my experience 50' run from my CM4248 I do better without amplification on my weakest channel (KCPQ).

Chuck Ebby

08-28-07, 03:32 PM

quarque

08-28-07, 08:47 PM

Doesn't amplification have more to do with boosting a signal with a long run from the antenna to the TV than boosting signal from weaker stations? In my experience 50' run from my CM4248 I do better without amplification on my weakest channel (KCPQ).

Yes. Amplifiers are a last resort because they boost both the signal AND the noise. That generally does not help a receiver front end unless the signal is much too weak (in which case it may not be usable regardless of what you do). The place to attack the problem is at the antenna (choice, location). Too much amplification can swamp out the receiver and make things worse.

DanKurts

08-29-07, 12:59 AM

Haven't been around here for quite some time. Was just wondering if there is any "news" regarding KCPQ doing anything to help boost signal in the near term? Like maybe moving the transmitter to a place that is more friendly for those of us north of Seattle ...

Chuck
KCPQ has plenty of power, 600kw at 500mhz. It's you location that's the problem.
Did a job on SE side of Whidbey at Glendale, small yagi, ch13 was hot. Another job on hill SW of Lake Stevens, same thing, no amp needed.
Job near Green Lake Cycle shop, NE of lake, hopeless. Just over the hill. Too many trees and buildings busting up the signal.
More power is not the problem, but "stuff" affecting the frequencies is. Each channel is 6mhz wide, and if it ALL doesn't get there at the same time and close in level (amount of signal in db's), the tuner just won't lock.
Then factor in the direction they're at, compared to Seattle, and that's where some people have to sacrifice them to get all the others.
Would be great if they could move their antenna to their ch22 tower. When they used to simulcast, it was a lot easier to line things up.
Oh, well. At least it's somewhat easy to add a second antenna for them, because of their frequency.
Dan

zyland

08-29-07, 02:08 AM

Whidbey, thanks for the pointer to www.tvfool.com, the "Complete Collection of Transmitter Icons" is well worth the download. With this and Google Earth, you can see exactly where all FCC licensed transmitting attennas are.

KRyanx

08-30-07, 03:09 PM

Yes. Amplifiers are a last resort because they boost both the signal AND the noise. That generally does not help a receiver front end unless the signal is much too weak (in which case it may not be usable regardless of what you do). The place to attack the problem is at the antenna (choice, location). Too much amplification can swamp out the receiver and make things worse.

It all depends on how weak the signal is. I put the lowest noise CM preamp I could find (CM 7777, I think) on my current setup (CM 4221 UHF antenna) and it made a huge difference in my OTA reception. I thought for sure I would have to resort to cable, but not now. At my previous house (with a much better signal) amplification didn't help at all, and perhaps even made it worse.

Tailwalk

08-30-07, 03:39 PM

quarque

08-30-07, 07:38 PM

Hello everyone, hope I'm allowed to mention for sale items here!!

I've got a Terrestrial Digital 43XG and a Antennas Direct DB8 both in perfect new condition. I purchased them from Solidsignal.com.

Asking $50 for the DB8 and $35 for the 43XG OBO

Local pickup only. I live in Lynnwood.
Thanks
David
206-999-1528

Just so this doesn't turn into another Craigslist.com,
the answer is NO, you may not list items for sale or services for fee.
It is part of the Forum Rules you supposedly read and agreed to.
It does not bother me but it may bother others or the admin/moderators.

fluffysheap

08-31-07, 08:21 PM

Can anyone recommend a local retailer from which to buy a semi-decent, indoor-usable antenna? Fry's has a bunch of outdoor ones, but pretty much everyone just has wimpy loop-and-rabbit-ears stuff or Terk's latest crap.

woodway

08-31-07, 09:59 PM

I received the CM4221 last week, and finally had a chance to pull it out of the box. It's working great.

I live north of Woodinville, in Snohomish County. My house has a daylight basement. To test the antenna out, I just put it into a window of my office which is located in my daylight basement. The antenna is pointed in the general direction of 200 degrees.

I have the antenna connected to one of the "outputs" of a 1:2 splitter. The other splitter "output" is connected to my TIVO. The "input" of the splitter is connected to the antenna input of my Toshiba HDTV. In other words, I am using the splitter backwards to mix the signal from the antenna and the signal from the TIVO onto a single coax. This way I can tune the TV to channel 3 to watch SDTV on my TIVO and the HD channels above channel 3 without having to worry about a switch box.

I can receive the following channels:

4.1
5.1, .2
7.1, .2
9.1, .2, .3, .5
11.1
13.1 (signal strength in the mid 80's BTW)
16.1, .2
20.1, .2, .3, .4, .5
22.1, .2
28.1, .2, .3, .4 (nothing being broadcast here, just a black screen)
33.1, .2, .3, .4
44.1, .2, .3, .4
45.1, .2, .3, .4
51.1

The digital channel all look great.

Next, I'll move the antenna into my attic and wire it into my distribution system permanently.

This thread was a huge help. Thanks to everyone who has contributed!