9.1 and 9.2 are identical...for now. According to KTSC website:
"When not broadcasting KCTS-DT HDTV on the majority of the bandwidth, KCTS multicasts three SDTV program streams on its digital channel 41: KCTS-DT, KCTS Kids, and KCTS Create. These channels are broadcast in standard definition television (SDTV) programming."

James

9.1 and 9.2 are identical...for now. According to KTSC website:
"When not broadcasting KCTS-DT HDTV on the majority of the bandwidth, KCTS multicasts three SDTV program streams on its digital channel 41: KCTS-DT, KCTS Kids, and KCTS Create. These channels are broadcast in standard definition television (SDTV) programming."

James

That was how it was before they went full-time with the HD subchannel. At that time the Kids channel (9.2) went away, presumably to conserve bandwidth). I just checked a while ago and 9.2 was showing different children's programming (PBS Kids) than 9.1. Now they are the same (the guide on my Directv receiver shows separate programming).

The PSIP data appears to be somewhat messed up, as well.

I just checked and the 9.2 program was back to the same as 9.1. I also noticed that the PSIP data was wrong for 9.2. It lists the channel name as being "V-Me" and listed different programs in the guide than 9.1. Hopefully they will work it out soon.
One thing I find odd is that that PBS seems to indicate on their website that the HD channel (9.5) and their two other channels (9.1 and 9.3) use up all their bandwidth... yet here they are currently broadcasting 4 channels, including the HD one. Maybe the HD one will not go away after all.

James

The PSIP data on my tv says that 9.2 is v-me. On PBS's web site, it says:

http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/aboutpbs_corp_pbsorg.html
V-me (which means “see me” in Spanish) is a groundbreaking broadcasting venture that debuted in March 2007, presenting the world's highest-quality programs to Spanish-speaking viewers in the U.S. Programming includes arts and culture, science and nature, public affairs, history and biography, kids, lifestyle, cinema and sports, and a mix of programs from abroad as well as Spanish-language versions of PBS programs.

They might be getting ready to show this on 9.2.

I just checked and the 9.2 program was back to the same as 9.1. I also noticed that the PSIP data was wrong for 9.2. It lists the channel name as being "V-Me" and listed different programs in the guide than 9.1. Hopefully they will work it out soon.
One thing I find odd is that that PBS seems to indicate on their website that the HD channel (9.5) and their two other channels (9.1 and 9.3) use up all their bandwidth... yet here they are currently broadcasting 4 channels, including the HD one. Maybe the HD one will not go away after all.

James

Several months ago they switched the HD subchannel from 1080i to 720p and maybe that give them enough bandwidth to add a bit-starved SD subchannel. I have an EyeTV 500 box which isn't working now, but when it did I could look at the bit rates. 9.3 had a much lower bit rate than 9.1 the last time I checked, and 9.2 possibly also has a reduced rate. I'd like to see a HD version of the main channel. They have some (locally produced) 16:9 content on 9.1 (which doesn't look all that bad), but all the network stuff is 4:3, even if it means using a letterbox.

I have an EyeTV 500 box which isn't working now, but when it did I could look at the bit rates. 9.3 had a much lower bit rate than 9.1 the last time I checked

So that explains why Create looks a little fuzzy, even on mt analog Sony TV.

They have some (locally produced) 16:9 content on 9.1 (which doesn't look all that bad), but all the network stuff is 4:3, even if it means using a letterbox.

I knew I wasn't seeing things the other day when I saw something being broadcast in 16:9 in 480. It looked good to me.

James

Now it's just 9.1, 9.3 and 9.5 (9.2 is no longer being broadcast) and the PSIP information seems to be correct for all channels.

Hey gang, just wanted to add my reception experience. I'm on the southeast side of Queen Anne, about 5 blocks up from Seattle Center. I'm on the 4th of 4 stories. I'm using antenna ONLY for HD (ATSC). So I'm only using the UHF ability of a little $10 job I got from Fred Meyer, this one to be specific: http://www.buy.com/prod/RCA_ANT110_Indoor_Antenna_VHF/UHF/FM/q/loc/111/90108684.html (if I wanted to utilize the VHF as well, I'd need a band separator (I think?), which this unit does not come with)

The antenna is not near the external wall, but still does great, as I expected given my location. I get all the locals, even picks up KCPQ fine. In total I think it picks up 12 or 13 digital stations, I don't remember the total exactly though. My only concern is that I just tried this yesterday, a clear day, not sure if weather might disturb the performance of this little guy.

Hey gang, just wanted to add my reception experience. I'm on the southeast side of Queen Anne, about 5 blocks up from Seattle Center. I'm on the 4th of 4 stories. I'm using antenna ONLY for HD (ATSC). So I'm only using the UHF ability of a little $10 job I got from Fred Meyer, this one to be specific: http://www.buy.com/prod/RCA_ANT110_Indoor_Antenna_VHF/UHF/FM/q/loc/111/90108684.html (if I wanted to utilize the VHF as well, I'd need a band separator (I think?), which this unit does not come with)

The antenna is not near the external wall, but still does great, as I expected given my location. I get all the locals, even picks up KCPQ fine. In total I think it picks up 12 or 13 digital stations, I don't remember the total exactly though. My only concern is that I just tried this yesterday, a clear day, not sure if weather might disturb the performance of this little guy.

EZ Rider
Don't bother with NTSC VHF, it will be ultra ghosty. You're lucky to get the UHF working. Being that close, and inside, even has the signal bouncing off the toilet bowl ! Don't move that antenna.
Dan

Since I've gone to comcast, I've taken down my various antennae hardware and am offering it FREE to whoever is willing to come pick it up (Dan, need some testing spares?). I've got a Winegard HD9085P (http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/HD9085P.pdf) yagi. It has an input for connecting a separate VHF antenna. Also have 2 half-sections of the grey Ratshack mast (about 4' each). All are in great condition. I live in Indianola (between Kingston and Poulsbo). PM me if you're interested.
-Mike



Bump.... somebody must want a high-gain UHF yagi for free... anybody? I hate to just take it to the dump. :( Specs are in the link above.

Edit: Bellbuoy took it off my hands today. Thanks Steve! -Mike

Bump.... somebody must want a high-gain UHF yagi for free... anybody? I hate to just take it to the dump. :( Specs are in the link above.


Spike
Thanks for the offer. Already have a test antenna dialed in. That's a pretty good yagi, similar to the Channel Master 4248, a little less gain and directivity, but has a good end mount so it can be placed on the side of a house. Try not to removed the balun coupling from the antenna. Kind of fragile. Just cut the cable and put a new end on it if needed.

Was up near Camano State Park today doing a survey for a house on the water. WOW! What a view. Love the NW in the summer, down on the beach. Got to be great where you are if you can see south over the passage. Might be worth it for someone to pick up your antenna just for the trip and view!
Any good places to chow down around there?
We had lunch on Camano at the Elger Bay Cafe, not far from the park. Good simple eats, easy on the wallet, nice people. Stop in if your in the 'hood.

Enjoy summer while it's here!!
Dan

Spike
Thanks for the offer. Already have a test antenna dialed in. That's a pretty good yagi, similar to the Channel Master 4248, a little less gain and directivity, but has a good end mount so it can be placed on the side of a house. Try not to removed the balun coupling from the antenna. Kind of fragile. Just cut the cable and put a new end on it if needed.

Was up near Camano State Park today doing a survey for a house on the water. WOW! What a view. Love the NW in the summer, down on the beach. Got to be great where you are if you can see south over the passage. Might be worth it for someone to pick up your antenna just for the trip and view!
Any good places to chow down around there?
We had lunch on Camano at the Elger Bay Cafe, not far from the park. Good simple eats, easy on the wallet, nice people. Stop in if your in the 'hood.

Enjoy summer while it's here!!
Dan


Yeah, I had it mounted to the side of the house under the eave. Used 2 pieces of uni-strut lagged to the side of the house horizontally (into the studs), then mounted a piece of mast to the uni-strut with normal side-of-house standoff mounts. Nice and strong. Overkill now for the little radio-shack panel antenna I have up there for backup to cable.

Kingston has the Filling Station Tavern. Kid-friendly till 9pm. Great food and lots of different beers to choose from. Plus they do bingo for goofy prizes on Mondays at 4 pm. Wife won a Costco-sized jar of artichoke hearts last time we were there.

Yeah, I had it mounted to the side of the house under the eave. Used 2 pieces of uni-strut lagged to the side of the house horizontally (into the studs), then mounted a piece of mast to the uni-strut with normal side-of-house standoff mounts. Nice and strong. Overkill now for the little radio-shack panel antenna I have up there for backup to cable.

Kingston has the Filling Station Tavern. Kid-friendly till 9pm. Great food and lots of different beers to choose from. Plus they do bingo for goofy prizes on Mondays at 4 pm. Wife won a Costco-sized jar of artichoke hearts last time we were there.


Spike89
Thanks for the info, have to check into that place. Anything in Indianola?
Dan

Spike89
Thanks for the info, have to check into that place. Anything in Indianola?
Dan

Just the little country store down by the dock. They make sandwiches and stuff out of the deli case. Nice folks. Coffee is always on.

Spike89,

Thank you again for the antenna. It works much better then the one that came with my HDTV Wonder. I can pick up KVOS with no problem when I put outside on the back deck.

KCTS is now broadcasting spanish language V-me on digital channel 9-2.

Spike89,

Thank you again for the antenna. It works much better then the one that came with my HDTV Wonder. I can pick up KVOS with no problem when I put outside on the back deck.

FWIW
Just did a job in Des Moines, down by the water, which means getting Seattle is tough. What really was amazing is KVOS from Bellingham came in !!
Not real strong, but was there. That's over a hundred miles to Mt Constitution on Orcas. TV was a Pioneer Elite and a Sharp LCD 32", both about 1 year old. I'm impressed. Have to keep an eye out for them on future jobs, see how well they come in.
Dan

I have a Sony DHG HDD500 video recorder that receives the TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) OTA with the KCTS 9 analog signal. I stopped receiving the guide about the middle of August and was wondering if it is still being transmitted. The folks there have not been much help with the answers.
I left a message on the Sony DHG forum also.

Thanks.

(also posted to the Samsung DTB260f forum)
I noticed the other day that a couple of the sub-channels fro my local PBS feed (V-Me & Create) were broadcasting 480i 4:3 content with no side bars. So, the picture appeared stretched horizontally when viewed in Letterbox. A click of the remote to switch the aspect to Full and the picture filled the screen of my 4:3 TV.

This works great for my set-up, a Sammy 260 tuner and an analog 4:3 TV, but does it work for people with 16:9 TV's? How does the image look? If it works fine, why don't all broadcasters transmit their 4:3 content this way?

James

Interesting. My DVD recorder with TVGOS has been sitting in my garage for a few months now (I should sell it...). I'll hook it up to my garage TV and let you know if I can get the guide.

James

I have a Sony DHG HDD500 video recorder that receives the TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) OTA with the KCTS 9 analog signal. I stopped receiving the guide about the middle of August and was wondering if it is still being transmitted. The folks there have not been much help with the answers.
I left a message on the Sony DHG forum also.

Thanks.

Hi Robert, My 2 units (250 &500) are working fine... tune in ch 9 and turn off your unit, sometimes it makes the dvr to pick up the guide "faster". (Do not turn the unit on for 24 hrs) If it does not work, do a reset an tune in ch 9 again... good luck !

I have a Sony DHG HDD500 video recorder that receives the TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) OTA with the KCTS 9 analog signal. I stopped receiving the guide about the middle of August and was wondering if it is still being transmitted. The folks there have not been much help with the answers.
I left a message on the Sony DHG forum also.

Thanks.

(also posted to the Samsung DTB260f forum)
I noticed the other day that a couple of the sub-channels fro my local PBS feed (V-Me & Create) were broadcasting 480i 4:3 content with no side bars. So, the picture appeared stretched horizontally when viewed in Letterbox. A click of the remote to switch the aspect to Full and the picture filled the screen of my 4:3 TV.

This works great for my set-up, a Sammy 260 tuner and an analog 4:3 TV, but does it work for people with 16:9 TV's? How does the image look? If it works fine, why don't all broadcasters transmit their 4:3 content this way?

James

On a 16:9 TV it will look normal if you have the TV set for pillar-boxed, otherwise it will be stretched. 9.1 is 16:9 with pillars added for the non-local programming (local is 16:9). I wish their letterboxed stuff was converted to full-screen.

It appears that KIRO 7.2 is running their tower cam stuff in 4:3 but the repeats of news are 16:9 (4:3 content with pillars added--strange!)

Most HD channels transmit 16:9 and add the pillars for 4:3 content so you don't have to reset the TV settings to avoid distortion.

(also posted to the Samsung DTB260f forum)
I noticed the other day that a couple of the sub-channels fro my local PBS feed (V-Me & Create) were broadcasting 480i 4:3 content with no side bars. So, the picture appeared stretched horizontally when viewed in Letterbox. A click of the remote to switch the aspect to Full and the picture filled the screen of my 4:3 TV.

This works great for my set-up, a Sammy 260 tuner and an analog 4:3 TV, but does it work for people with 16:9 TV's? How does the image look? If it works fine, why don't all broadcasters transmit their 4:3 content this way?

James
Most digital broadcaster do transmit their SD content in the 480 4:3 format. So in that regard, V-me and Create are just like "most" other SD digital broadcasts.

Most 16:9 TV have several different ways that you can watch 4:3 SD content: standard (typically stretched to fill the screen), narrow (retains it's aspect ratio, but it has pillars on the left and right) and several others that stretch the image to fill more of the screen. (personally, I prefer narrow so that it preserves the aspect ratio.

9-1 KCTS-DT is the odd one. They transmit a 480 16:9 image. Much of the time, the content is actually 4:3 so they just add grey pillars to fill the rest of the 16:9 image. But occasionally, they actually have 16:9 480 content which fills the screen (and looks pretty good).

It appears that KIRO 7.2 is running their tower cam stuff in 4:3 but the repeats of news are 16:9 (4:3 content with pillars added--strange!)
Actually, KIRO 7.2 does something a little creative with their repeats of news. They take the 4:3 image, add black borders to make it into a 16:9 image, compress this 16:9 image horizontally into a 4:3 image and transmit that.

On a 16:9 TV set to "standard", the 4:3 image is stretched horizontally to fill the screen. This returns the original 4:3 image to the correct 4:3 aspect but loses horizontal resolution.

On a 16:9 TV set to "narrow", the 4:3 image is not stretched, so the original 4:3 image looks just like someone took a 16:9 image and compressed it to 4:3. Which is exactly what they did. You get an outer set of black borders (supplied by your TV) and an inner set of black borders (supplied by KIRO).

9-1 KCTS-DT is the odd one. They transmit a 480 16:9 image. Much of the time, the content is actually 4:3 so they just add grey pillars to fill the rest of the 16:9 image. But occasionally, they actually have 16:9 480 content which fills the screen (and looks pretty good).

It looks a lot better than analog SD.

I wish they would take the letterboxed stuff on 9-1 and expand it to fil the entire 16:9 screen. I can zoom my display, but that is throwing away pixels.

Kudos to KCPQ, they are now showing re-runs of "Two and a Half Men" in HD. I think this is the first syndicated show that I've seen in HD. Let's hope other shows and stations follow suit.

Kudos to KCPQ, they are now showing re-runs of "Two and a Half Men" in HD. I think this is the first syndicated show that I've seen in HD. Let's hope other shows and stations follow suit.

I'm still waiting for Star Trek and the Mariners in HD.

OK, I am not sure if it has already been asked. I did browse through some of the 200 pages to search for the answer. Let me know if this is a repeat.

I live in the Redmond Ridge community. This community is on the Novelty Hill between Redmond and Duvall. To be specific, its on Novelty Hill Road going from Redmond To Duvall.

Is there anyone here from the region? Does anyone have idea about what kind of antenna would be suitable for that area? I have a HDTV though I am looking for both anlog and digital signals.

OK, I am not sure if it has already been asked. I did browse through some of the 200 pages to search for the answer. Let me know if this is a repeat.

I live in the Redmond Ridge community. This community is on the Novelty Hill between Redmond and Duvall. To be specific, its on Novelty Hill Road going from Redmond To Duvall.

Is there anyone here from the region? Does anyone have idea about what kind of antenna would be suitable for that area? I have a HDTV though I am looking for both anlog and digital signals.

I live in the Redmond Ridge community. This community is on the Novelty Hill between Redmond and Duvall. To be specific, its on Novelty Hill Road going from Redmond To Duvall.

Is there anyone here from the region? Does anyone have idea about what kind of antenna would be suitable for that area? I have a HDTV though I am looking for both anlog and digital signals.

I live about 6 miles east of you, up on top of Stillwater hill (between Duvall and Carnation). I pick up strong signal from all of the major stations using a CM4228 (8 bow-tie UHF) and CM7775 Titan2 preamp. No rotor necessary, but I did have to experiment with placement of the antenna to get a good line of sight to the west between various trees. I think a lot will depend on your elevation and how high you can get the antenna, but you should be around the same elevation as me and you're that much closer.

Channel 5.1 has been a problem child for me. If there is one channel that will not come in, 99% of the time it's Ch 5.1.
Here's what I know, in case it can help anyone who may have suggestions for me:
At night and during overcast or rainy days, Ch 5.1 has only a few drop-outs here and there. On a nice sunny clear day, I usually cannot even get a watchable signal.
I use a rotator which sometimes helps if I move the antenna a degree or two side to side to try to lock in the signal. I'm thinking about getting a pre-amp, but I've read that they boost noise as well as the signal, so I'm not sure if it would help in my situation.
Speaking of per-amps - if I do get one, should I get the one that boosts both VHF and UHF? I've read that some stations may be broadcasting digitally on the VHF band after 2/17/09.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

James

OK, I am not sure if it has already been asked. I did browse through some of the 200 pages to search for the answer. Let me know if this is a repeat.

I live in the Redmond Ridge community. This community is on the Novelty Hill between Redmond and Duvall. To be specific, its on Novelty Hill Road going from Redmond To Duvall.

Is there anyone here from the region? Does anyone have idea about what kind of antenna would be suitable for that area? I have a HDTV though I am looking for both anlog and digital signals.
I live at the top of Education Hill a couple of miles west of you. I use a Radio Shack model VU 190-XR boom antenna to pick up the seattle stations. All of the major stations come in very clear with the exception of KCPQ (from Bremerton) which has occasional drop outs. Not sure where you are on Novelty Hill road, but it looks like the only thing between you and the towers in downtown Seattle is the elevated mass that is Bellevue. Depending on your elevation, this could be a problem but I think you stand a pretty good shot of getting good reception. No guarantees. Never used the CM models, so I can't offer an opinion. Just make sure that whatever you use, it handles VHF because it looks like KOMO, KING and KIRO at least are going to be broadcasting their digital content on VHF after FEB 2009.

Channel 5.1 has been a problem child for me. If there is one channel that will not come in, 99% of the time it's Ch 5.1.
Here's what I know, in case it can help anyone who may have suggestions for me:
At night and during overcast or rainy days, Ch 5.1 has only a few drop-outs here and there. On a nice sunny clear day, I usually cannot even get a watchable signal.
I use a rotator which sometimes helps if I move the antenna a degree or two side to side to try to lock in the signal. I'm thinking about getting a pre-amp, but I've read that they boost noise as well as the signal, so I'm not sure if it would help in my situation.
Speaking of per-amps - if I do get one, should I get the one that boosts both VHF and UHF? I've read that some stations may be broadcasting digitally on the VHF band after 2/17/09.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

James

James
Use a Channel Master 7777 preamp. It amplifies VHF & UHF, and can easily be set to only work on UHF for now. At your distance, background noise is probably not an issue. Most jobs I've done out there require a preamp to get the signal out of the mud. From your description, it sounds like it might help.
Dan

OK, I am not sure if it has already been asked. I did browse through some of the 200 pages to search for the answer. Let me know if this is a repeat.

I live in the Redmond Ridge community. This community is on the Novelty Hill between Redmond and Duvall. To be specific, its on Novelty Hill Road going from Redmond To Duvall.

Is there anyone here from the region? Does anyone have idea about what kind of antenna would be suitable for that area? I have a HDTV though I am looking for both anlog and digital signals.

Amol_22
Send the nearest cross streets for a better idea of where your location is.
Dan

I live close to the intersection of NE Cedar Park Crescent and Redmond Ridge Drive NE. Here is the link to the intersection: http://local.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.rydvxf4txjdr_Close%20Interesection___&encType=1

I live close to the intersection of NE Cedar Park Crescent and Redmond Ridge Drive NE. Here is the link to the intersection: http://local.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.rydvxf4txjdr_Close%20Interesection___&encType=1

Amol
If it weren't for all the trees west of you, great location. I found it to be very hit/miss there. I have one at 84th and 229th, works, but was fussy finding the sweet spot. The tree line is a good ways off, too, where you wouldn't think it was a problem. Ended up using a yagi style, instead of the bow tie 4221, and a preamp to pull in ch's 5 and 13. Done some surveys there, some great, some bad.
Analog is another story. Trying to do both is tough. Misaiming an antenna for HD is the norm. For analog, it just makes ghosting worse. Amplifying HD is not a big deal there, but can pull in noise on analog. HD can be mounted anywhere it can see some good signal. Analog needs to be at least 4ft or so away from anything. Analog channels (VHF) require much larger antennas.

It can be done, you just need to get the right combinbation of antenna and location. If you want to try, use a Radio Shack combo, so if it gets too wierd, you can pack it in and return it for a UHF only.
If you really want clean analog, you're better off using a separate HD tuner and downconverting the signal. If it's in the budget, the Samsung H260F is awesome for reception, about $180 at Circuit City. Has video/audio outs that you can feed the regular def set with.
Dan

I live at the top of Education Hill a couple of miles west of you. I use a Radio Shack model VU 190-XR boom antenna to pick up the seattle stations. All of the major stations come in very clear with the exception of KCPQ (from Bremerton) which has occasional drop outs. Not sure where you are on Novelty Hill road, but it looks like the only thing between you and the towers in downtown Seattle is the elevated mass that is Bellevue. Depending on your elevation, this could be a problem but I think you stand a pretty good shot of getting good reception. No guarantees. Never used the CM models, so I can't offer an opinion. Just make sure that whatever you use, it handles VHF because it looks like KOMO, KING and KIRO at least are going to be broadcasting their digital content on VHF after FEB 2009.

Thought I'd jump in and clarify at least one item.. KOMO-DT will remain on channel 38 UHF after the analog "turn-off" in 2009. I believe that KING and KIRO are also staying on their UHF channels post transition in 2009, but I don't want to speak for them.

I live in Monroe and have been have a terrible time trying to get any digital signals. I have an old "standard" for lack of better term antenna on my roof with a rotor

I bought a Sony SAT-HD200 HDTV Receiver from a guy in Marysville. He was getting great receiption with his CM 4428.

Would an antenna like the one given away be worth my while? Thanks

Thought I'd jump in and clarify at least one item.. KOMO-DT will remain on channel 38 UHF after the analog "turn-off" in 2009. I believe that KING and KIRO are also staying on their UHF channels post transition in 2009, but I don't want to speak for them.
Thanks for the clarification. Can anyone from KING or KIRO confirm that they will be broadcasting on their UHF channels after the transition? Someone else had posted that KCTS, KSTW, KVOS and KCPQ were all moving to their UHF channels post transition. If this is all true, we can all make the jump to UHF only now.

I live in Monroe and have been have a terrible time trying to get any digital signals. I have an old "standard" for lack of better term antenna on my roof with a rotor

I bought a Sony SAT-HD200 HDTV Receiver from a guy in Marysville. He was getting great receiption with his CM 4428.

Would an antenna like the one given away be worth my while? Thanks

aeetes
Send the nearest cross streets.
Dan

Thought I'd jump in and clarify at least one item.. KOMO-DT will remain on channel 38 UHF after the analog "turn-off" in 2009. I believe that KING and KIRO are also staying on their UHF channels post transition in 2009, but I don't want to speak for them.

Kelly
Thanks.
You are going to move the antenna to the top, though, right? Same polar plot, power, etc?
Dan

I have a Sony DHG HDD500 video recorder that receives the TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) OTA with the KCTS 9 analog signal. I stopped receiving the guide about the middle of August and was wondering if it is still being transmitted. The folks there have not been much help with the answers.
I left a message on the Sony DHG forum also.

Thanks.

In case no-one responed or you are still having problems with your Sony - I hooked up my old DVD recorder with EPG and it populated the guide with no issues.

James

Need some help here determining if Kiro has done something somewhat recently or if it's just me. My setup is a CM 4221 chimney mounted and connected to a Accurian OTA receiver.

I get all local channels in HD EXCEPT Kiro. Fox, which is the furthest away I get a 80-82 signal strength with SNR of ~26dB according to my receiver. Yet Kiro doesn't come in at all. It comes up with a signal strength of 50-60 and SNR of ~17dB.

I really want to watch the Hawks today! Any thoughts?

Thanks for the clarification. Can anyone from KING or KIRO confirm that they will be broadcasting on their UHF channels after the transition? Someone else had posted that KCTS, KSTW, KVOS and KCPQ were all moving to their UHF channels post transition. If this is all true, we can all make the jump to UHF only now.I'm certainly not from any Seattle TV stations, but in case they're not here, I'll answer for them: The three DT stations moving to VHF in 2009 are KCTS-9 (PBS, only some care), KSTW-11 (CW -- almost there...), and KCPQ-13 (Darn!).

And this is from The Source: Go to fcc.gov/dtv, scroll down to "FCC Announces Final Assignment of Digital Television Channels", then check the Excel or Acrobat version of Appendix B, and search under "Seattle" and "Tacoma".

(Not-so) Fun fact: KCPQ was almost sold in 1974 (with the KTVW calls) to Pat Robertson (before he became really famous), but the deal was stopped prematurely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCPQ). God should have won the station, because if He did, maybe the FOX affilitate would remain on UHF after transition, and many people wouldn't care to be UHF-only in the area...

I really want to watch the Hawks today! Any thoughts?

I'm watching the Hawks right now in HD. OTA.

I'm watching the Hawks right now in HD. OTA.

Where at? I'm in the Bothell / Mill Creek area. Just a shade NE of the Both/Evt hwy and 180th intersection.

EDIT: I just realized this is for OTA. whoops! Ignore this message then...

For those getting clear QAM through Comcast: has KSTWDT (CW11) been moved or removed? I can't detect it anymore, and I'm not sure if it's because I just updated my HDHomerun software or Comcast did something.

Thanks.

EDIT: I just realized this is for OTA. whoops! Ignore this message then...

For those getting clear QAM through Comcast: has KSTWDT (CW11) been moved or removed? I can't detect it anymore, and I'm not sure if it's because I just updated my HDHomerun software or Comcast did something.

Thanks.
I coudn't receive it yesterday evening via OTA neither (signal strength of 0). kstw might have some technical problems...

EDIT: I just realized this is for OTA. whoops! Ignore this message then...

For those getting clear QAM through Comcast: has KSTWDT (CW11) been moved or removed? I can't detect it anymore, and I'm not sure if it's because I just updated my HDHomerun software or Comcast did something.

Thanks.

flashbacck
Both are down for me, too. Analog is still okay.
Dan

A KSTW engineer sometimes stops by here at the forum. Perhaps he is extremely busy right now.

I too noticed both OTA and QAM cable versions of KSTW-HD are MIA.

Where at? I'm in the Bothell / Mill Creek area. Just a shade NE of the Both/Evt hwy and 180th intersection.

Sorry I did not see your post earlier. North of Woodinville, South of Maltby. maybe a mile from the 522 / Paradise Lake Rd. intersection. Coming in loud and clear.

How far south of the Canadian border can you be to receive stations from either Vancouver or Victoria? If you live IN Seattle itself is it possible?
Even thought it isn't a lake, how much does the presence to water improve reception?

Being somewhat close to Toronto, Lake Ontario is a huge blessing. Without it, reception would probably out of the question for most.

How far south of the Canadian border can you be to receive stations from either Vancouver or Victoria?

I'm in Marysville, which is about 35 miles north of Seattle. I can get two or three decent analog signals from Victoria, but no digital signals. There's a hill blocking my line of sight to Victoria. I get no signals at all from Vancouver.

Even thought it isn't a lake, how much does the presence to water improve reception?

I'm sure it doesn't hurt reception, but I'm not sure how you could tell how it could improve reception. Perhaps drain the lake or sound and see if reception gets worse? I think it's the lack of obstacles that plays a bigger role.
One thing we have here that is way less prevalent in the Toronto area is hills and mountains. They are the major determining factor here when it comes to TV reception. I'm always amazed when I read about someone from some area that is flat that can get TV signals from 75 to 100 miles away.

James

Sorry I did not see your post earlier. North of Woodinville, South of Maltby. maybe a mile from the 522 / Paradise Lake Rd. intersection. Coming in loud and clear.

Argh, I don't know what the deal is. Especially since Komo/King broadcast from almost the exact same location yet they come in perfect.

Sucks since the new seasons of CSI: Miami and The Unit are starting :confused::mad::(

Anyone else have any ideas?

I'm certainly not from any Seattle TV stations, but in case they're not here, I'll answer for them: The three DT stations moving to VHF in 2009 are KCTS-9 (PBS, only some care), KSTW-11 (CW -- almost there...), and KCPQ-13 (Darn!).

And this is from The Source: Go to fcc.gov/dtv, scroll down to "FCC Announces Final Assignment of Digital Television Channels", then check the Excel or Acrobat version of Appendix B, and search under "Seattle" and "Tacoma".

(Not-so) Fun fact: KCPQ was almost sold in 1974 (with the KTVW calls) to Pat Robertson (before he became really famous), but the deal was stopped prematurely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCPQ). God should have won the station, because if He did, maybe the FOX affilitate would remain on UHF after transition, and many people wouldn't care to be UHF-only in the area...
Thanks MikeMikeB,
I checked out the pdf you suggested. As a follow-up, it looks like all of the Seattle/Tacoma area TV stations will be giving up their original analog channels and keeping their current digital channels with the exception of

KCTS (9), KSTW (11), KCPQ (13) and KWPX (33)

These four channels will give up their current digital channels and converting their existing analog channels to digital channels post-transition. So, we won't be able to give up VHF totally, but we won't need to pull in low-VHF channels. How successful are UHF-only antennas at pulling in high-VHF channels?

As a follow on question. Are channels like KOMO, KING and KIRO going to continue to stick with their 4, 5 and 7 branding as well as PSIP remapping to their old analog channels?

as quarque's signature says "Why can't everything be simple?"

Y'know...I have to quit going on vacation. this is twice when I went out of town our digital transmitter has gone down hard! :confused:
Yes, KSTW-DT has been off the air since Saturday, Sept. 22nd at approx. 1400hrs. Parts have been ordered.
We expect to be back on the air by Tuesday Sept. 25th late in the day, if all goes well.
Sorry for the inconvenience. :o

R Diotte
CE, KSTW

PS: yes, comcast only picks up our DTV from off air so we're not on ch.111 right now either.

How successful are UHF-only antennas at pulling in high-VHF channels?Some are better than others, while others are horrendous. The ChannelMaster 4221 has been pretty good at picking up channels 9-13, especially toward 13. The Channel Master 4228 is great at picking up channels 9 and 13, at least for a UHF-only antenna, but it's highly directional, making it worthless for Seattle reception.

As a follow on question. Are channels like KOMO, KING and KIRO going to continue to stick with their 4, 5 and 7 branding as well as PSIP remapping to their old analog channels?Absolutely.

Whidbey; Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked about reception over the waterways is (sorry, I'm not sure if calling it a 'river' would be correct), for us in this market area, Lake Ontario is a HUGE help to receive Toronto since half of the distance is over water. Yes you do have a hilly area, where as to the north there is only a escarpment (as in Niagara Falls).

Anyone in the Seattle area receive any digital stations from up north?

Whidbey; Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked about reception over the waterways is (sorry, I'm not sure if calling it a 'river' would be correct), for us in this market area, Lake Ontario is a HUGE help to receive Toronto since half of the distance is over water. Yes you do have a hilly area, where as to the north there is only a escarpment (as in Niagara Falls).

Anyone in the Seattle area receive any digital stations from up north?

Unfortunately, Puget Sound (the large body of water that is an inlet from the Pacific Ocean) is a bit too far west to lie between most Seattle viewers and Vancouver. Victoria itself is further west a bit, but we have dozens of islands along the coastline of Puget Sound that make the path more like overland instead of oversea.

Depending the elevation of the homes, some folks north of Seattle have reported receiving some Canadian stations and a Bellingham station (approx. 90 miles north of Seattle).

I live southeast of Seattle, and even though I am on a hill, I barely get the Bellingham station on analog, and definitely not their lower-power digital signal. Perhaps if I had a higher-gain antenna and/or an amplifier I might get something, but since I need neither for local reception, I have not tried.

Thanks for the replies. I was just wondering about the border areas.
It seems the Detroit & Toledo areas have the best bang for the buck looking at what stations are available up north with Buffalo/Toronto a close 2nd.

Whidbey; Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked about reception over the waterways is (sorry, I'm not sure if calling it a 'river' would be correct), for us in this market area, Lake Ontario is a HUGE help to receive Toronto since half of the distance is over water. Yes you do have a hilly area, where as to the north there is only a escarpment (as in Niagara Falls).

Anyone in the Seattle area receive any digital stations from up north?

I am in Seattle proper near Puget Sound, use a small directional Blonder Tongue UHF antenna and easily pick-up a Bellingham station transmitting from Mt Constitution about 75-100 miles away. I'm sure the water has something to do with it.

I'm in the Madison Valley neighborhood of Seattle, not especially far from E Madison St and 28th Ave E. While I'm on the east slope of Capitol Hill, the slope is gentle, there are no tall buildings nearby and I'm far from the water.

AntennaWeb tells me that I need a medium directional antenna w/pre-amp to get KOMO, KING and KIRO.

would someone please tell me if that's correct? I would think that I wouldn't need much of anything to pick up those stations when I'm comfortably inside the city limits.

Y'know...I have to quit going on vacation. this is twice when I went out of town our digital transmitter has gone down hard! :confused:
Yes, KSTW-DT has been off the air since Saturday, Sept. 22nd at approx. 1400hrs. Parts have been ordered.
We expect to be back on the air by Tuesday Sept. 25th late in the day, if all goes well.
Sorry for the inconvenience. :o

R Diotte
CE, KSTW

PS: yes, comcast only picks up our DTV from off air so we're not on ch.111 right now either.
Thanks R Diotte, it's back on now. Just in time to record Reaper. Thanks again.

I am in Seattle proper near Puget Sound, use a small directional Blonder Tongue UHF antenna and easily pick-up a Bellingham station transmitting from Mt Constitution about 75-100 miles away. I'm sure the water has something to do with it.

GGG
Not really. There's plenty of land in the path, most all of Whidbey Island. It's the fact that they're 2200ft above sea level. Vancouver is over the horizon and behind some big hills for reception from Seattle. There is one guy up there that's located on a very high hill that gets Seattle, with some great equipment.
As for over water, I've not seen any improvement in signal when aiming a HD antenna down slightly, and then back up trying to pick up skip. The big help is that there's nothing in the way.
I'm not up to speed on what Vancouver is doing for HD. I read somewhere they were going to turn it on. Does anyone know what channels/freq's they use for HD? Is it 8VSB or ?? I'm working on Camano next few days. There's some big hills there, and I could stop and do a quick test if I knew what to look for.
Dan

I'm in the Madison Valley neighborhood of Seattle, not especially far from E Madison St and 28th Ave E. While I'm on the east slope of Capitol Hill, the slope is gentle, there are no tall buildings nearby and I'm far from the water.

AntennaWeb tells me that I need a medium directional antenna w/pre-amp to get KOMO, KING and KIRO.

would someone please tell me if that's correct? I would think that I wouldn't need much of anything to pick up those stations when I'm comfortably inside the city limits.

ptn
That area is very goofy. You are glowing in the dark from channels 9-11-22.
And you're just over the hill enough that what does get to you is all chopped up by all the buildings. It's even tough sometimes up on Broadway. Some places it comes in okay, ten feet away nothing you can lock onto. It's not that signal is weak, it's just splattering off everything and makes it hard for the tuner to lock on. With all that, using a wide angle bow tie style 4221 gets you too much of everything. I found a small yagi, like the Rat Shack 15-2160 works better. It will help eliminate some of the reflections and noise. Height will really help.
Dan

I gave up Dish Network and switched to Comcast cable so that I could watch the Mariners in HD (before they started to suck).

But I still have an old Dish 921 HD DVR that I use for OTA HD.

The signal is slightly better than the the Comcast rebroadcast of the Seattle OTA HD signal, but I still noticed a lot of pixelization during the Seahawks game last Sunday.

I know that using the Dish 921 as my OTA HD receiver I am actually going through the hard drive before I get to see the pic.

So I am wondering, is the 921's hard drive compressing the signal before I see it on my video projector?

That would explain why it's not much better than the Comcast HD signal which I know is compressed.

And if the 921 is compressing my signal, what's a good receiver for OTA HD brodcast to get the full bandwidth of the signal?

The Dish 921 doesn't compress anything. The bits come in, lay down on the hard drive, then go to the tv. Any artifacts you see are likely a result of compression by the broadcaster (which I have seen a lot of on CBS broadcasts).

Too bad you left Dish, we get FSN-HD now, so you can see the Mariners!

Maybe if you come back you can get a 622 or 722, which is far superior to the 921 in every way (I had the 921 when it first came out).

The Dish 921 doesn't compress anything. The bits come in, lay down on the hard drive, then go to the tv. Any artifacts you see are likely a result of compression by the broadcaster (which I have seen a lot of on CBS broadcasts).

Too bad you left Dish, we get FSN-HD now, so you can see the Mariners! Maybe if you come back you can get a 622 or 722, which is far superior to the 921 in every way (I had the 921 when it first came out).

When did Dish get FSN-HD? I just switched 2 months ago.

I keep hearing conflicting stories about who has the most HD content ... Comcast, Dish, DirecTV ...

I liked Dish except for the lack of FSN-HD.

I hear that DirecTV has a lot more sports programming than Dish, but I also hear that Comcast has more bandwidth than Satelite for adding more HD programming.

It's very confusing.

When did Dish get FSN-HD? I just switched 2 months ago.

I keep hearing conflicting stories about who has the most HD content ... Comcast, Dish, DirecTV ...

I liked Dish except for the lack of FSN-HD.

I hear that DirecTV has a lot more sports programming than Dish, but I also hear that Comcast has more bandwidth than Satelite for adding more HD programming.

It's very confusing.

Are you looking for quality or quantity? If it's the 1st, then you're better of with cable/ota. Just read all these stories about hd-lite in the hd programming forum to get an idea how the satellite companies achieve hd quantity...

When did Dish get FSN-HD? I just switched 2 months ago.

I keep hearing conflicting stories about who has the most HD content ... Comcast, Dish, DirecTV ...

I liked Dish except for the lack of FSN-HD.

I hear that DirecTV has a lot more sports programming than Dish, but I also hear that Comcast has more bandwidth than Satelite for adding more HD programming.

It's very confusing.

If your only beef with Dish Network was a lack of FSN-HD then definitely check them out again since they have it. They still don't have channel 13 in HD though so if you dont' get that via OTA it may be an issue. I'm actually a moderator for one of the satellite TV forum sites, DBSTalk, and have personally used every Dish HD DVR from the 921 to the 722 and they have come a long ways from the 921 days. Way more stable, way more features, and now with the 722 with it's 55+ hours of HD recording space plus support for USB hard drives the amount of storage is virtually endless.

If you looking for the sheer number of channels in HD then satellite is the way to go, at the moment. Up until today Dish Network was the clear leader, however DirecTV just turned up a bunch of new HD channels this morning so they are pretty even now. A lot of them carry the same channels, but there are some that currently only one or the other has. You'd need to go and compare the 2 companies to see which one meets your needs.

As far as quality, I can't speak for DirecTV since I've never had it but I can compare OTA to Dish Network and yes, OTA is definitely better as far as the local channels go, but as far as the national feeds between cable and Dish Network, from what I've seen there is not much if any difference. My brother has Comcast and watching football on ESPN-HD on his TV looks no better or worse than it does on my TV. I don't think that Dish compresses as much as DirecTV so things may be different over there. However, I do not have any first hand knowledge to compare DirecTV to Dish Network in the HD arena though.

If you want to read up more on this and the offerings I highly suggest heading over to DBSTalk, there is lots of valuable information and help available to you there.

If you have anymore questions about Dish or OTA integration into Dish receivers feel free to contact me and I'll try and help you out.

Just read all these stories about hd-lite in the hd programming forum to get an idea how the satellite companies achieve hd quantity...Actually, D*'s new national MPEG-4 HD channels are reported to look amazing.

Oh, and DanKurts: Got a couple of questions for you.

1. Have you seen a Pioneer Kuro in person yet?
2. If so, what are your thoughts on it? Is it even better than the Elites you've seen?

Anybody else seen a Kuro and are willing to talk about it?

I am definitely looking for the best HD picture quality rather than most HD channels.

I just want to be sure I can watch the M's and Cougs in HD on FSN HD. Until recently you could only do that on Comcast.

If cable has higher quality HD than Sat., I will stick with the cable since I already get most of the HD channels that I need: FSN, ESPN, ESPN2, Discovery, HBO

I also get the local channels in HD on Comcast, or I can use my 921 OTA receiver.

So I guess I will stick with what I've got for now.

Before I switched to cable, I noticed that a lot of the basic cable channels on Dish seemed to be highly compressed with major macroblocking, much worse that when I first started using Dish. So I assume they are compressing the channels more to squeeze more channels onto their Sat. feed, is that correct?

Anybody else seen a Kuro and are willing to talk about it?

I just got a Pioneer Kuro PRO-950HD (Elite 42") and all I can say is WOW. It definitely lives up to it's hype. I haven't been this impressed with HDTV since I first went to HD a few years ago. The contrast and colors are incredible. I upgraded from a 3 - 4 year old Pioneer non-elite (PDP4312 which was really a 4304 display with speakers and a stand) and it was a huge difference. I also briefly owned a new Panasonic 42" and the Pioneer is way better looking, better detail, color, contrast, you name it. If you read through the Kuro owners thread here you'll see that just about everyone agrees that the picture quality on a Kuro is second to none.

Before I switched to cable, I noticed that a lot of the basic cable channels on Dish seemed to be highly compressed with major macroblocking, much worse that when I first started using Dish. So I assume they are compressing the channels more to squeeze more channels onto their Sat. feed, is that correct?

Yes, SD stations on Dish, especially on an HD set do not look all that great, though I've found a lot depends on the TV and how well the TV handles the lower quality/compressed stations.

i.e. they look a whole lot better on my Pioneer plasmas than they did my neighbor's el cheapo Septre LCD (he has Dish as well). The same went for me when I originally bought a Vizio Plasma a few years back. HD looked pretty good but SD was virtually unwatchable, returning it and getting a Pioneer made world of difference.

I've done a lot of shopping for HDTVs for myself, family, and friends and something I've noticed is a lot of time the difference between off-brand and name-brand TVs can be minor for HD or high quality source content. However, when it comes to SD or lower quality content the name-brand TVs typically look a lot better, i.e. better processors to clean up the garbage inside.

I really a believer in you get what you pay for when it comes to TVs.

Finally, I don't know about you but I'm getting to the point where almost everything I want to watch is in HD now so I rarely watch anything SD. About the only station I'm waiting on to go HD that I watch regularly is Sci-Fi. Between the major networks, ESPN/ESPN2, FSN-NW, HBO, Showtime, Starz, Cinemax, Discovery, FoodTV, and the History Channel (all in HD via Dish or OTA for me) it takes care of probably 90% of my TV viewing if not more. Because of this I personally care less and less about Dish's SD channel quality.

Actually, D*'s new national MPEG-4 HD channels are reported to look amazing.

Oh, and DanKurts: Got a couple of questions for you.

1. Have you seen a Pioneer Kuro in person yet?
2. If so, what are your thoughts on it? Is it even better than the Elites you've seen?

Anybody else seen a Kuro and are willing to talk about it?

According to their web site, that TV's resolution is only 1024x768. How is that HD? 720p is 1280x720.

According to their web site, that TV's resolution is only 1024x768. How is that HD? 720p is 1280x720.

Almost all 42" plasmas on the market are 1024x768 and they scale the 720p/1080i/1080p HD signal to 768p. This is a topic that has been discussed all over this site over the years.

I am definitely looking for the best HD picture quality rather than most HD channels.

I just want to be sure I can watch the M's and Cougs in HD on FSN HD. Until recently you could only do that on Comcast.

If cable has higher quality HD than Sat., I will stick with the cable since I already get most of the HD channels that I need: FSN, ESPN, ESPN2, Discovery, HBO

I also get the local channels in HD on Comcast, or I can use my 921 OTA receiver.

So I guess I will stick with what I've got for now.

Before I switched to cable, I noticed that a lot of the basic cable channels on Dish seemed to be highly compressed with major macroblocking, much worse that when I first started using Dish. So I assume they are compressing the channels more to squeeze more channels onto their Sat. feed, is that correct?

Directv has had HD broadcasts of all of the Mariners home games which were carried by FSN (plus a very few away games). Hopefully by*next season it will be a full-time HD channel.

Many of the SD channels on Directv are pretty heavily compressed also. KBTC is particularly bad (whether viewed on a HD or SD TV). Some of the national SD channels aren't too bad, however. They added a lot of new HD channels today, but much of the content is upconverted (and sometimes stretched) SD. Still, it looks quite a bit better.

Almost all 42" plasmas on the market are 1024x768 and they scale the 720p/1080i/1080p HD signal to 768p. This is a topic that has been discussed all over this site over the years.

The most common resolution is 1366x768. This is the first tv i've seen that is 1024x768.

Actually, D*'s new national MPEG-4 HD channels are reported to look amazing.

Oh, and DanKurts: Got a couple of questions for you.

1. Have you seen a Pioneer Kuro in person yet?
2. If so, what are your thoughts on it? Is it even better than the Elites you've seen?

Anybody else seen a Kuro and are willing to talk about it?

mikemikeb
Yes, I have seen it. They figured out a way to turn down the "idle, no picture" state of the pixel cells so black is now really black. In one of the last issues of Home Theater Mag, they showed a picture of last years Elite and the new one, side by side in a dark room, with almost nothing on the screen but with an image so you could see it was working. The new one was far darker in the black areas. Looked like a CRT. I have set up many plasma's for customers over the years, and always liked the Elite's best. It comes the closest to a CRT in overall color range and depth. Granted a CRT, even the HD ones, will never have the snap of an HD plasma set, but if they have a wide tint range (120 degrees or more) and gray scale tracking is working right, the colors are great. I'm super fussy, and can't just "turn off" the old tech habit of looking for flaws. The Elite has enough adjustments and overal range of color that make it easy to live with. You definitely need to set it up separately for DVD 490, regular SD TV, and then the HD inputs. Once done, sit back and be amazed. The Fujitsu's are a close second, Panasonic top of the line models 3rd, but back a ways from the top two. The new Panasonics have great black, but are a bit soft, and don't process movies as well as the other two, even when viewing HD movies.
The Elite is on my wish list when the Lotto hits!
Dan

Directv has had HD broadcasts of all of the Mariners home games which were carried by FSN (plus a very few away games). Hopefully by*next season it will be a full-time HD channel.

Many of the SD channels on Directv are pretty heavily compressed also. KBTC is particularly bad (whether viewed on a HD or SD TV). Some of the national SD channels aren't too bad, however. They added a lot of new HD channels today, but much of the content is upconverted (and sometimes stretched) SD. Still, it looks quite a bit better.

I am still confused ...

Is the consensus that Comcast has the best picture quality for HD TV but Direct has the most HD TV channels?

Does Direct have a dedicated channel for FSN HD? On Comcast, they run FSH HD broadcasts on the "Mojo" channel for a few hours. It is very frustrating because if the game goes over the allotted time, they switch back to the regular Mojo programming!! In other words, FSN gets a specific time slot and that's it.

So if Direct TV has a dedicated FSN HD channel, plus more HD channels than Comcast, maybe I should switch over to Direct. But if I do that, my luck is that Comcast will add more HD as soon as I am gone.

This is so frustrating.

Thank god I have my anntenna for OTA HD-TV so at least I can always get the local HD channels!!

UPDATE: I have just be reading the Seattle Comcast HD thread and it appears that there are not many new HD channels coming any time soon, so I'll probably be switching to Direct any day now.

I am still confused ...

Is the consensus that Comcast has the best picture quality for HD TV but Direct has the most HD TV channels?

Does Direct have a dedicated channel for FSN HD? On Comcast, they run FSH HD broadcasts on the "Mojo" channel for a few hours. It is very frustrating because if the game goes over the allotted time, they switch back to the regular Mojo programming!! In other words, FSN gets a specific time slot and that's it.

So if Direct TV has a dedicated FSN HD channel, plus more HD channels than Comcast, maybe I should switch over to Direct. But if I do that, my luck is that Comcast will add more HD as soon as I am gone.

This is so frustrating.

Thank god I have my anntenna for OTA HD-TV so at least I can always get the local HD channels!!

UPDATE: I have just be reading the Seattle Comcast HD thread and it appears that there are not many new HD channels coming any time soon, so I'll probably be switching to Direct any day now.


SteveCoug
In the past two years, I have switched many of my customers from satellite back to cable. Before that, over the last 7 years or so I usually set people up with satellite. It had more to offer and had a slightly better picture. Of course, over air is a bit sharper than both, but if you want all the bells and whistles, then you also need one of the others.
In many of the switch overs, we had the opportunity to compare while both were still up. In general, with Comcast and newer HD receivers, it was very close. A slight nod went to cable. Both looked very good in HD. Of course, SD gets pretty soft on satellite on some channels, but then cable has a few uglies, too.
Again, I've done this compare on many different TV sets/types, and it's usually about the same.

What I do like is that cable doesn't require paying for the receivers, and all the Seattle channels are there, not just 4-5-7-13. Even the 9-3 is there. I prefer the uncompressed audio on the music channels and no DJ's like the XM on satellite. There's also 25 FM stations. If you have marginal reception on satellite from trees growing in your path, or want to run more receivers, cable is far simpler to work with, obviously.

As for who has the mostest HD, it's always going to see-saw between them.
Cable has far more bandwidth. It's a matter of economics for them, not technical limitations. When they actually will use it or more HD channels become available is another story. I noticed satellite is offering more channels form the History/Animal Planet/Discovery group. Cable has the same SD channels, so it's just a matter of time before thay have it, too.

I have both and over air. If I had to live with one only, it would be cable.
As for service, they both have their problems, and can frustrate the H out of me! If I have to call for service, I usually know what the problem is, yet they always want to dance around, arrrggghh.

As for watching the Mariners in HD on FSN/cable, I've not seen them cut off the broadcast for the MOJO channel. I haven't watched every single game, but catch a lot of them. Haven't had any customers call about it. And they do call whenever there's a problem, it's something I encourage.

All those people that I've changed over to cable are happy, and no one has asked me to switch back.

Guess it boils down to which has the channels you want the most, now.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the reply. You are guy who installed my OTA antenna 3 years ago and it's working great!

I have signed up for Direct and they will be installing on Monday.

So in the past 3 months, I've had Dish, Comcast and now Direct.

As of now, Direct sems to have the most to offer in terms of HD.

And yes I can say that Comcast DOES cut off games before they are over because that happened to me a couple of nights ago when the M's game went to 12 innings. They cut off the game when the next show was scheduled to start, even though the game was not over. They did the same thing last weekend on the Husky football game. They cut it off 2:45 into the game.

And THIS weekend the Cougs are on FSN, but NOT in HD on Comcast!

So that was the final straw for me. Direct TV is known for providing the best sports tv coverage, so that is where I am going.

Hi Dan,
And THIS weekend the Cougs are on FSN, but NOT in HD on Comcast!


Just so you know that has nothing to do with Comcast. The game this weekend will be a regional production by FSN Arizona, picked up here by FSN NW. Regional CFB productions by FSN aren't in HD yet.

Next week's game in Pullman is a national production, so there's a great chance it will be in HD.

Just so you know that has nothing to do with Comcast. The game this weekend will be a regional production by FSN Arizona, picked up here by FSN NW. Regional CFB productions by FSN aren't in HD yet.

Next week's game in Pullman is a national production, so there's a great chance it will be in HD.

Ah ... thanks for the info!

Maybe I jumped the gun switching to Direct. ;)

But it seems that they offer much more HD TV, including a dedicated channel for FSN HD, so I'm going ahead with it.

Perhaps someone can help me...

I'm working with a friend to get his HDTV dialed in. He's in the Wallingford area (close to N 145th and Wallingford Ave N). He's using a DB-2 mounted outside the house on the roof line. The coax run is ~50' but will be shortened to ~35'.

He's running MythTV with a HDHomerun tuner. At his home he's ~7 to 10 miles from the main network towers (ABC, NBC, CBS) and 25 miles from Fox. He has no luck tuning in Fox but the major issue is the signal with the other three stations (well, all stations really). The signal will jump from 100% to ~50% randomly. Things will be beautiful then every 2 to 10 minutes the signal will plummet. Sometimes it recovers, sometimes it is so bad he has to exit out of LiveTV and enter back in. Considering he can get 100% signal at some points it really makes me wonder what is going on. His wife is going nuts with the video drop outs and last night made him hook up his old VCR so they'd be able to watch analog OTA. OUCH!

Anyone else in that area have any suggestions?

Thanks!!!!

Kelly
Thanks.
You are going to move the antenna to the top, though, right? Same polar plot, power, etc?
Dan

Hi Dan,

Yes that is the plan. Very shortly after the analog turn-off in February 2009, we will remove the channel 4 antenna at the top of the KOMO tower and replace it with a new omni-directional KOMO-DT antenna. I have been toying with the idea of changing the new antenna to be circularly-polarized, rather than the typical horizontal polarization. The concept in using circular polarization would be to meet the needs of future portable DTV receiving devices. The Effective Radiated Power would remain the same.

The most common resolution is 1366x768. This is the first tv i've seen that is 1024x768.

Really? Because over the years I've found it just the opposite, at least for Plasmas. Just to make sure I just spent a few minutes going to a bunch of manufacturers websites and found that all the following companies 42" 720p Plasmas are 1024x768:

Pioneer
Panasonic
Samsung
HP
Fujitsu
Phillips
LG

I then went to Costco's website to see about some of the 'off-brand' makers and what they offer and did find that Maxent offers a 1366x768 and a 1024x768, but that was it.

I have a Sony DHG500 with the TV Guide on Screen. I recently changed from a RS U-75R (yagi style) to a Channel Master 4221. My receiver was not receiving the guide and I thought there must be a problem with the transmission, after ruling that out I tried aiming the antenna in different directions and voila I now have the guide back. I was tuned in to KCTS analog and was getting a good picture in most directions but I was only receiving the guide when aimed a certain direction. This thing must have one small sweet spot when it comes to receiving the guide info.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is there an easy fix? I have a rotor but don't want to be a slave to my antenna aim each day before going to bed.

Thanks.

How far south of the Canadian border can you be to receive stations from either Vancouver or Victoria? If you live IN Seattle itself is it possible?
Even thought it isn't a lake, how much does the presence to water improve reception?

I'm in Seattle proper. OTA, I only get CKVU/10 from Vancouver. On cable, of course, I get CBUT/2 from Vancouver.

The most common resolution is 1366x768.
For LCD displays 42" and under mostly.

This is the first tv i've seen that is 1024x768.

I had the same reaction - because all I have ever shopped for is LCD displays and had never looked at the plasma specs.

James

Hi Dan,

Yes that is the plan. Very shortly after the analog turn-off in February 2009, we will remove the channel 4 antenna at the top of the KOMO tower and replace it with a new omni-directional KOMO-DT antenna. I have been toying with the idea of changing the new antenna to be circularly-polarized, rather than the typical horizontal polarization. The concept in using circular polarization would be to meet the needs of future portable DTV receiving devices. The Effective Radiated Power would remain the same.


Kelly From KOMO
Sounds great. Will the polar pattern still be the same D shape or full 360?

My only question on polarization is how it relates to analog. When ch13 changed to Gold Mt many years ago, I was told they went to circular for less ghosting in analog. It worked okay as long as you had the proper type yagi. It looked like a 6ft boom with letter X's running down the length. Channel Master was the only one making it. Years later, they quit making it. Since then, trying to get a clean ch13 analog was impossible. Always had some ghosting, no matter what I tried. Even with line of sight from the top of buildings downtown. I've not had to deal with digital circular, so can't comment on how well it works or what's required. However, since normal analog yagi's (horizontal elements) worked so very different from circular ones in analog, there might be some problems if we're limited to one style of UHF antenna. Depending on a users location, you never know whether a yagi or bow-tie style is going to work. You might have problems. I might have problems! There are lots of little pockets where installs are a compromise to get all channels. That one small change might be a big headache for many.
Has anyone else across the country tried this out and in a similar frequency and power to yours?

I would be glad to work with you in testing, if you are thinking of trying an antenna out before final install.

Thanks again for all your info here.
Dan

Perhaps someone can help me...

I'm working with a friend to get his HDTV dialed in. He's in the Wallingford area (close to N 145th and Wallingford Ave N). He's using a DB-2 mounted outside the house on the roof line. The coax run is ~50' but will be shortened to ~35'.

He's running MythTV with a HDHomerun tuner. At his home he's ~7 to 10 miles from the main network towers (ABC, NBC, CBS) and 25 miles from Fox. He has no luck tuning in Fox but the major issue is the signal with the other three stations (well, all stations really). The signal will jump from 100% to ~50% randomly. Things will be beautiful then every 2 to 10 minutes the signal will plummet. Sometimes it recovers, sometimes it is so bad he has to exit out of LiveTV and enter back in. Considering he can get 100% signal at some points it really makes me wonder what is going on. His wife is going nuts with the video drop outs and last night made him hook up his old VCR so they'd be able to watch analog OTA. OUCH!

Anyone else in that area have any suggestions?

Thanks!!!!

Lost Dog
There are a lot of trees there. Signal is actually fairly good in level, but it gets chopped up from weaving its way through all of them. When it is working okay, the tuner is actually barely locking on. That's why your "strength indicator" will show 100 on minute and zip the next. It's measuring how well it can lock on, NOT actual amount of signal. It makes finding that sweet spot fun.
Try moving the antenna to another location. Just 6" in any direction, even up or DOWN, can make big changes. You'll know your doing well when the signal meter doesn't change much as you rotate the antenna.
The DB2 is kind of small for that location. A 4221 or the DB4 would be better. Also you might want to try a 15-2160 small yagi from Rat Shack. It has a better rejection of reflected signals than bow tie types. It's cheap, and if it does work you can always return it.
Dan

Lost Dog
There are a lot of trees there. Signal is actually fairly good in level, but it gets chopped up from weaving its way through all of them. When it is working okay, the tuner is actually barely locking on. That's why your "strength indicator" will show 100 on minute and zip the next. It's measuring how well it can lock on, NOT actual amount of signal. It makes finding that sweet spot fun.
Try moving the antenna to another location. Just 6" in any direction, even up or DOWN, can make big changes. You'll know your doing well when the signal meter doesn't change much as you rotate the antenna.
The DB2 is kind of small for that location. A 4221 or the DB4 would be better. Also you might want to try a 15-2160 small yagi from Rat Shack. It has a better rejection of reflected signals than bow tie types. It's cheap, and if it does work you can always return it.
Dan

Great info! Thanks Dan.

Yeah, there are quite a few trees around the house and in the area. Speaking with Antennas Direct about the DB-2 they felt being so close to the transmitter (7 or so miles according to antennaweb) we were getting reflection and digital ghosting (probably from the trees!) and to place a variable attenuator on the line.

I could see a DB4 for the Fox station (20 some odd miles) but wouldn't that be overkill for ABC, NBC, CBS towers?

Ah ... thanks for the info!

Maybe I jumped the gun switching to Direct. ;)

But it seems that they offer much more HD TV, including a dedicated channel for FSN HD, so I'm going ahead with it.

I just answered one of your posts in the dbs forum, but to restate it here--Directv does not currently have a dedicated HD channel for Fox Sports Northwest. They have carried most Mariner home games (i.e., those not on KSTW) and a limited number of away games in HD on a spot beam (channel 96) and will probably pick up some other sports now that baseball is ending.

Directv will be switching RSNs to full-time HD, but that is just beginning (they added 21 HD channels last week and will be adding many more over the next few months). However, they have not yet announced FSNW as one of the full time channels on to be on a CONUS beam. It will inevitably happen, but I wouldn't expect it before sometime next year.

Bob

When ch13 changed to Gold Mt many years ago, I was told they went to circular for less ghosting in analog. It worked okay as long as you had the proper type yagi.

Ahhhhh... brings back memories for the KCPQ ads to "get your free KCPQ Loop Antenna" :D

KMYQ 22-2 has a barker that announces that they will no longer be carrying "The Tube Music Network" on 22-2. The website http://www.thetubetv.com/ has the sad announcement that the entire network is closing down due to financial issues. That's really too bad. It was like MTV back when they had music videos only better.

Thanks KMYQ for carrying it.

All my EPG listings are gone on my Samsung 260. Also, my tuner thinks it's living 24 hours in the past...Anyone else experiencing loss of guide data or is it just my machine?

James

Great info! Thanks Dan.

Yeah, there are quite a few trees around the house and in the area. Speaking with Antennas Direct about the DB-2 they felt being so close to the transmitter (7 or so miles according to antennaweb) we were getting reflection and digital ghosting (probably from the trees!) and to place a variable attenuator on the line.

I could see a DB4 for the Fox station (20 some odd miles) but wouldn't that be overkill for ABC, NBC, CBS towers?


Lost Dog
There's theory and then the real world. Antennas Direct is not taking into account the trees. Your antenna doesn't have much gain. It would work fine at that distance it there were no trees or any other obstacles. You could try an attenuator, but I doubt it will help. You need to get the actual signal levels
up enough to get above minimum. Then, if there's still problems, move it around to get a clean signal. Yagi's usually work better when in the trees close in. That's why I suggested the 15-2160.
It's hard to say which will work best. Either the DB4 - 4221 type or yagi style could work if you find the right location. This is why I carry several different flavors of antennas. Each location is unique. For most of the jobs I've done around you a yagi was used. A few took a the 4221.
Sorry I can't be more specific, but that's the nature of the game.
Dan

I watch most of the NFL actions on 92" off my antiquated Z2 fed 720p signal by the LG 3510A. A few years back, when ABC was still in the game, 720p and 1080i were comparable. The former was a bit sharper while the latter smoother. Recent days, FOX seems just OK while CBS and NBC are a lot smoother and clearer.

Am I getting old or others have similar observation?

I watch most of the NFL actions on 92" off my antiquated Z2 fed 720p signal by the LG 3510A. A few years back, when ABC was still in the game, 720p and 1080i were comparable. The former was a bit sharper while the latter smoother. Recent days, FOX seems just OK while CBS and NBC are a lot smoother and clearer.

Am I getting old or others have similar observation?

tuquet
I've seen enough variation between sources, receivers, displays and programming that you could argue either way. When everything is right (programming and feed) they look great. If just one part of the chain is a little soft.....
I have three receivers on the same antenna, all feed the same old plasma. Two downconvert to my old analog Sony XBR. Depending on the program quality, which brings into play many variables in the digital world, one will sometimes look a bit better than the other. One is a 3 year LG sat receiver like yours, the other an old Mits/Hughes E85. Also have a newer Samsung over air only H260. Cheap receiver, but shows everything, flaws and all. If it's a really good local live feed, like news or sports, wowser. National HD sources look really soft sometimes on it, though. The other two receivers obviously must have better video processing, because they will usually look a little better.
The new Direct sat receivers seem to vary a lot in picture quality. Same receiver, same TV. Motorola cable boxes seem a bit more consistent. Not better, just that you can usually adjust a new TV and the settings are pretty close on every one of the same make.

Guess digital stuff isn't perfect after all, surprise, surprise.
To paraphrase the Great quarque, Why can't it all be easy !

Dan

I've tried to get a good analog signal from the Capitol Hill tower 4.3 miles to the north of me (I'm at 20th Ave S. & S. Lucile St.) but with a huge yagi antenna mounted on my roof I got a lot of ghosting. My Rat Shack rabbit ears with the adjuster nob did a better job inside my house but there was still ghosting. I got 4, 7, 13 and 16 fine.
So I went with Dish. Because here in the hood (curse of the zipcode) your choice for a cable provider is Millennium Media - and they never have any deals.
I'd like to try getting that tower again with a 15-2160 and see if I can receive a good HD signal once I get a HDTV.
I don't know if this is the problem but there is the 10 story Veterans Building directly in my line of sight .74 miles away. Does that sound like a killer? I did the geometry before I bought the first antenna calculating the height of the tower and (guessing) the height of the Vet's building and I thought I was clear.
To put it simply-
How much analog ghosting means doom for a good HD signal?

I've tried to get a good analog signal from the Capitol Hill tower 4.3 miles to the north of me (I'm at 20th Ave S. & S. Lucile St.) but with a huge yagi antenna mounted on my roof I got a lot of ghosting. My Rat Shack rabbit ears with the adjuster nob did a better job inside my house but there was still ghosting. I got 4, 7, 13 and 16 fine.
So I went with Dish. Because here in the hood (curse of the zipcode) your choice for a cable provider is Millennium Media - and they never have any deals.
I'd like to try getting that tower again with a 15-2160 and see if I can receive a good HD signal once I get a HDTV.
I don't know if this is the problem but there is the 10 story Veterans Building directly in my line of sight .74 miles away. Does that sound like a killer? I did the geometry before I bought the first antenna calculating the height of the tower and (guessing) the height of the Vet's building and I thought I was clear.
To put it simply-
How much analog ghosting means doom for a good HD signal?

Ricky Mac
Forget analog. It's a tough area for clean reception. Downtown and all the buildings around you make it really tough. There's lots of signal, but always some ghosting.

Did you get a HD Dish receiver with over air antenna input?
If so, it will downconvert HD signals for your current TV, and ghosting won't be an issue. The Veterans bldg shouldn't be a major problem for you. It might be if you were a lot closer to it and further east, but signals are strong enough there from ch's 9-11-22 that it should be okay.
I would try a 4221 from Fry's, and point it somewhere between Alki and Queen Anne.
If you only want locals, and don't need satellite, then use a Samsung H260 over air tuner. About $180 at Circuit City. You should be able to get 4-5-7-9-11-13-16-22.
Dan

PBSHD(9.5) - I've been experiencing problems with this channel for about the last 3 or 4 weeks. Before then I had no problems. But now for about 80% of the time when I tune into PBSHD, I'll be watching it through my MCE HTPC and after about 5 minutes, it'll blink out for about 1/2 a second, be fine for a minute, blink again for about 1/2 a second, and then on the third blink it'll give me a "Video error" warning and tell me I need to restart MCE. Restarting MCE doesn't always solve the problem.

I don't have this problem on the other channels (KOMO, KING, KIRO, KMYQ).

Did PBS change something in their signal? Didn't they add another subchannel to their lineup? Did that take away bandwidth from the PBSHD channel? Or, do I just need to re-align my roof antenna (which is not a fun thing to do)?

PBSHD(9.5) - I've been experiencing problems with this channel for about the last 3 or 4 weeks. Before then I had no problems. But now for about 80% of the time when I tune into PBSHD, I'll be watching it through my MCE HTPC and after about 5 minutes, it'll blink out for about 1/2 a second, be fine for a minute, blink again for about 1/2 a second, and then on the third blink it'll give me a "Video error" warning and tell me I need to restart MCE. Restarting MCE doesn't always solve the problem.

I don't have this problem on the other channels (KOMO, KING, KIRO, KMYQ).

Did PBS change something in their signal? Didn't they add another subchannel to their lineup? Did that take away bandwidth from the PBSHD channel? Or, do I just need to re-align my roof antenna (which is not a fun thing to do)?


When I watch 9.5 via Comcast and QAM tuner on my Philips 19" LCD, it stutters (pausing for 1/2 second every 2-3 seconds or so). Makes it unwatchable. It feels like watching internet video where the bitstream is too slow, and the video pauses to buffer every couple seconds. But hey, prior to that 9.5 would occasionally just lock up the tuner in this TV requiring a power cycle.

PBSHD(9.5) - I've been experiencing problems with this channel for about the last 3 or 4 weeks. Before then I had no problems. But now for about 80% of the time when I tune into PBSHD, I'll be watching it through my MCE HTPC and after about 5 minutes, it'll blink out for about 1/2 a second, be fine for a minute, blink again for about 1/2 a second, and then on the third blink it'll give me a "Video error" warning and tell me I need to restart MCE. Restarting MCE doesn't always solve the problem.

I don't have this problem on the other channels (KOMO, KING, KIRO, KMYQ).

Did PBS change something in their signal? Didn't they add another subchannel to their lineup? Did that take away bandwidth from the PBSHD channel? Or, do I just need to re-align my roof antenna (which is not a fun thing to do)?


Joe
It's hard to figure out what the cause is from here, but they have done something.

First, I normally can't get 9 over air. I go through a row of trees that chop up their signal pretty good. My old tuner can't deal with it, so I just don't go there.
BUT, within the last month, I'm able to tune it again. When I look at waveshape on the scope, it still is ugly, but the tuner is able to decode it at 100%. Very surprising. Signal level isn't any better, db-wise. Previously, it never saw more than 10-20%, verifying the bad waveshape.
Now, watching the tuner at 100% in strength mode for a while, it does hiccup quite regularly down to 30-50. And watching any of the sub channels shows the same hiccups. Key word is regular, like something on their end or in the air is breaking it up.

So wassup. Again, I would normally attribute it to my trees just moving around. They have done something, though, because I've not been able to get it for several years, and my trees have not grown smaller!

Be great if one of their techs could comment. If I get time I'll try and call them. In the past it's been hard to talk to them, though.

Dan

I've got a Sony SAT-HD200 HDTV Receiver on an old analog antenna on a rotor. It is on our two story house about 15 feet above the roof peak.

I'm a couple miles south of Monroe. The guy I bought the receiver from got 4, 5, 7, 9, and KONG in Marysville, so I know the receiver works.

I can't pick up a single digital signal no matter which way I turn the rotor towards Seattle.

I bought an Channel Master 4228 but haven't installed it yet. What I'm wondering is if I put the CM up and I don't get digital, will I still be able to get analog?

I'd really like help getting digital but maybe Redmond Ridge in the way, but I do get 4, 7, 11, 13 and sometime 5 on a stormy day fine - that is- with analog.

thanks for reading

My experience. I watch 9-5 very reliably on Vista MCE. I can watch for hours without the video error issue you are describing. When KCTS used to have 9-2 as "KCTS Kids" (SD), I recall that they used to timeshift 9-2 and 9-5. But now with the new 9-2 "V-me", there isn't any timeshifting at all so I'm guessing they had to rob from Peter (9-1, 9-3 and 9-5) to pay Paul (9-2).

how do I start a NEW post in Seattle, WA -ota

thanks

aeetes - I'm no expert on predictiing how well reception will be in your area, but I can tell you that when I switched to a 4228 antenna, it made a big difference in the quality of my digital signal. HOWEVER - the quality of my analog signals took a dive. So, if you can easily switch out the antennas give the 4228 a try, it may be all you need. Best bet would be to have both antennas active, if you can.
If you post your cross streets or coordinates, there's a couple of guys in here that can give a professional opinion. You can also try this website: www.tvfool.com. There's some interesting tools on there, including a file you can look at in Google Earth that will let you visualize the local transmitters from your home, to see which may be in your line of sight.

James (who sold a Sony receiver to a guy in Monroe, is that you?)

Did PBS change something in their signal? Didn't they add another subchannel to their lineup? Did that take away bandwidth from the PBSHD channel?

I can get PBS to come in fine most of the time, but I have noticed something different lately. Usually, when I have a weak signal, I get audio drop-outs and screen freezes. With PBS, sometimes areas of the screen sorta pixelize and become blurry, but no audio drop-outs unless the signal is totally lost.
A few weeks ago, it didn't do that. I either had the signal, or it came in and out with choppy audio and video. I'll take the occasional blur in the screen over that. Has PBS figured out a way to improve their signal?

James

aeetes - I'm no expert on predictiing how well reception will be in your area, but I can tell you that when I switched to a 4228 antenna, it made a big difference in the quality of my digital signal. HOWEVER - the quality of my analog signals took a dive. So, if you can easily switch out the antennas give the 4228 a try, it may be all you need. Best bet would be to have both antennas active, if you can.
If you post your cross streets or coordinates, there's a couple of guys in here that can give a professional opinion. You can also try this website: www.tvfool.com. There's some interesting tools on there, including a file you can look at in Google Earth that will let you visualize the local transmitters from your home, to see which may be in your line of sight.

James (who sold a Sony receiver to a guy in Monroe, is that you?)

Thanks for replying. I did by my receiver from a guy named James. Hum...

tvfool is a cool tool.

can you or someone tell me what the following mean from the google map of the fcc stations?

Height AGL, height AMSL, ERP

(edit found amsl above mean sea leavel - SO - does that mean the is the height of the part of the antenna that transmitts?)

I'll have to try your idea. Too rainy out here today.

I do hope that KCTS is monitoring this site, and has some comments regarding the signal change. I do think that they lowered the bandwidth of 9-5 in order to get 9-2 on the air, which is a shame. 9-5 is, by far, my favorite channel. Any information would be useful.

how do I start a NEW post in Seattle, WA -ota

thanks

You just did!

If you meant NEW THREAD, then it won't happen. Each city is limited to the number of threads that run concurrently. This one is for all OTA questions regarding digital reception.

Regarding your other post: AMSL is as you found, the actual transmitter height above mean sea level. ERP is Effective Radiated Power. ERP doesn't really mean too much until you get beyond 40 miles. 100kW will actually carry beyond that distance if there are no obstructions and you have a decent tuner. When people gripe about a station's power not being at 1 Megawatt, it usually means they are having a problem and assume it is from too little signal and that is caused by too little ERP. 99 times out of 100 it is not the ERP level. There is also the effect of radiation pattern - most stations don't transmit equal power in all directions. In Seattle they try to cover everything east of Puget Sound. So people to the west have great difficulty sometimes.

Post your nearst cross streets and Dan or I can check you line of sight for hills.

If you meant NEW THREAD, then it won't happen. Each city is limited to the number of threads that run concurrently. This one is for all OTA questions regarding digital reception..

Thanks. Now I know.



In Seattle they try to cover everything east of Puget Sound. So people to the west have great difficulty sometimes.

Post your nearst cross streets and Dan or I can check you line of sight for hills.

If this is a double post, sorry. My computer crashed in the middle of a reply, but I don't see it.

I'm at SR 203 and approximately 186st Street SE, according to Google Earth my elevation is 134 feet.

Thanks for any hlep.

Thanks. Now I know.



If this is a double post, sorry. My computer crashed in the middle of a reply, but I don't see it.

I'm at SR 203 and approximately 186st Street SE, according to Google Earth my elevation is 134 feet.

Thanks for any hlep.


aeetes
You're in the shadow of the big hill to the SW. By the time you add the height of all the trees, it's over 600ft. UHF is very line of sight. Never say never, but it's going to really be tough. And that tuner is not very sensitive. I own one, and have worked with many others. If you aim the antenna south, towards Duvall, you will probably pick up ch33. It will at least verify the tuner is working.
Dan

aeetes
You're in the shadow of the big hill to the SW. By the time you add the height of all the trees, it's over 600ft. UHF is very line of sight. Never say never, but it's going to really be tough. And that tuner is not very sensitive. I own one, and have worked with many others. If you aim the antenna south, towards Duvall, you will probably pick up ch33. It will at least verify the tuner is working.
Dan

Thanks. What, in your opinion, be a more "sensitive" receiver?

What is ch33, I take it that it is digital.

I'm certainly not from any Seattle TV stations, but in case they're not here, I'll answer for them: The three DT stations moving to VHF in 2009 are KCTS-9 (PBS, only some care), KSTW-11 (CW -- almost there...), and KCPQ-13 (Darn!).
[...]

I put up a CM 4221 very recently which improved my 9-5 reception (from 60% to 94% on my ATI HDTV Wonder) and 13-1 went from 0-12% (never displayed) to 80-88% and works consistently. The rest of the lineup came in as before. So yippee!

I'm thinking that this antenna probably will be insufficient for VHF 9, 11, and 13. If so, I'll have to get a new antenna in a couple years. Are there any on the market with UHF as good as the CM4221 with comparable VHF? I could always get another midrange VHF/UHF like I was using for analog before (which did not have adequate reception for CH13-1 though however my antenna has been slightly damaged by fatso crows) but believe typically for combo antennas that the reception for VHF is better than the UHF companion.

Any thoughts? For now I'm set though, and won't have to climb back up there for a while. I didn't realize until wading through these last few pages that several stations would move back to VHF band.

--Ben

Thanks. What, in your opinion, be a more "sensitive" receiver?

What is ch33, I take it that it is digital.
33 analog KWPX (ION)
32 digital KWPX with 4 subchannels

Both are transmitted from Tiger Mountain as well as

42 digital KWDK (daystar)
44 digital KHCV (jewelry television, Azteca America, AAT and America One)
45 analog KHCV (jewelry television)
50 digital KUNS (univision)
51 analog KUNS (univision)

Thanks. What, in your opinion, be a more "sensitive" receiver?

What is ch33, I take it that it is digital.

aeetes
The Samsung H260F sold by Best Buy and Circuit City is very sensitive, best I've ever seen.
HOWEVER, not sure if it would work for you. You're in a really tough location.
Hate to see you pick one up if you couldn't return it. If anything will do it, though, this is the one.
Dan

I put up a CM 4221 very recently which improved my 9-5 reception (from 60% to 94% on my ATI HDTV Wonder) and 13-1 went from 0-12% (never displayed) to 80-88% and works consistently. The rest of the lineup came in as before. So yippee!

I'm thinking that this antenna probably will be insufficient for VHF 9, 11, and 13. If so, I'll have to get a new antenna in a couple years. Are there any on the market with UHF as good as the CM4221 with comparable VHF? I could always get another midrange VHF/UHF like I was using for analog before (which did not have adequate reception for CH13-1 though however my antenna has been slightly damaged by fatso crows) but believe typically for combo antennas that the reception for VHF is better than the UHF companion.

Any thoughts? For now I'm set though, and won't have to climb back up there for a while. I didn't realize until wading through these last few pages that several stations would move back to VHF band.

--Ben

Ben
I would just wait and try it out when the time comes. Who knows, might just work as is. If not, then you can leave the 4221, and get a VHF only and hook them together with a UHF/VHF combiner. Looks like a splitter, costs maybe $3at Rat Shack. They also have some small UHF/VHF combo antennas, but you'll probably find the UHF part won't work as good. No sweat. The combiner will keep the 4221 separate from the other antenna.
Dan

You just did!

If you meant NEW THREAD, then it won't happen. Each city is limited to the number of threads that run concurrently. This one is for all OTA questions regarding digital reception.

Regarding your other post: AMSL is as you found, the actual transmitter height above mean sea level. ERP is Effective Radiated Power. ERP doesn't really mean too much until you get beyond 40 miles. 100kW will actually carry beyond that distance if there are no obstructions and you have a decent tuner. When people gripe about a station's power not being at 1 Megawatt, it usually means they are having a problem and assume it is from too little signal and that is caused by too little ERP. 99 times out of 100 it is not the ERP level. There is also the effect of radiation pattern - most stations don't transmit equal power in all directions. In Seattle they try to cover everything east of Puget Sound. So people to the west have great difficulty sometimes.

Post your nearst cross streets and Dan or I can check you line of sight for hills.

quarque
I tried out the Pinnacle USB HD & QAM tuner stick. Couldn't find the one you had used. It would get some channels with the little antenna, but when I tried to watch one, it would start and then hang. Yet, if you pulled up the Task Manager, the CPU was just loafing along, and I had plenty of memory. Tried their website, downloaded patches, and scanned both cable and antenna. Just couldn't get it to work properly. It would lock up my mouse, but not the keyboard, go figure. Tried twice to get through to their support, but was on hold forever.
After reading other's hassles with this on the web, bailed on it.
Cool idea, but obviously has some application problems to sort out.
Dan

Ben
I would just wait and try it out when the time comes. Who knows, might just work as is. If not, then you can leave the 4221, and get a VHF only and hook them together with a UHF/VHF combiner. Looks like a splitter, costs maybe $3at Rat Shack. They also have some small UHF/VHF combo antennas, but you'll probably find the UHF part won't work as good. No sweat. The combiner will keep the 4221 separate from the other antenna.
Dan

Dan, how does a digital signal on VHF relate to an analog one? In other words, if you get a decent analog signal for channels like 9 and 11 right now, would that mean that you should be able to receive a digital signal on the same channel as well once they switch (suppose that the transmitted signal strength is similar)? In that case you can just check what analog channels you receive at the moment and what you can expect after the switch.

Ben
I would just wait and try it out when the time comes. Who knows, might just work as is. If not, then you can leave the 4221, and get a VHF only and hook them together with a UHF/VHF combiner. Looks like a splitter, costs maybe $3at Rat Shack. They also have some small UHF/VHF combo antennas, but you'll probably find the UHF part won't work as good. No sweat. The combiner will keep the 4221 separate from the other antenna.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I suppose I can find out sooner rather than later by attaching the CM4221 signal to the analog TV I'm using downstairs. I can see from the beam pattern of the CM4221 that performance is better with higher frequencies, so I suspect that the signal dropoff from 18 to 13 will be too much, but maybe not. I just looked up the base freq of those channels, and 18 is 494 MHz and 13 is only 210 MHz.

If I go all digital in the near future including a DVR, I could just remove the VHF combo antenna and just wait for the frequency reassignment and then replace the 4221 if needed. At least, it wouldn't be much work with all the wiring and mast already installed.

Then in the meantime, I could remove the old antenna from the chimney where it's mostly just loosening the bricks now.

This is an unsolicited plug for Dan Kurts.

Dan installed an OTA HD TV antenna system at my house 3 years ago and he did a very professional job and I get excellent reception of all the local HD TV signals.

He knows what kind of antenna to use, where to point it and how to set it up for the best possible OTA HD-TV reception in your area.

Recently, Dan has taken a lot of his time to give me personal advice on choosing and setting up a new OTA HD-TV receiver at my house even though I am not paying him a dime for this.

I know a lot of you are DIY types, but I think it is well worth the fee that Dan charges to get set up right for OTA HD-TV reception.

I'm just making this post to return the favor to Dan for sharing his professional advice with me for free.

Dan is the MAN!

Dan is the MAN!

I'll second that, even though I've never hired him he has offered great advice.

James

quarque
I tried out the Pinnacle USB HD & QAM tuner stick. Couldn't find the one you had used. It would get some channels with the little antenna, but when I tried to watch one, it would start and then hang. Yet, if you pulled up the Task Manager, the CPU was just loafing along, and I had plenty of memory. Tried their website, downloaded patches, and scanned both cable and antenna. Just couldn't get it to work properly. It would lock up my mouse, but not the keyboard, go figure. Tried twice to get through to their support, but was on hold forever.
After reading other's hassles with this on the web, bailed on it.
Cool idea, but obviously has some application problems to sort out.
Dan

Too bad. The Viore I bought is available at Walmart and it works very well if you have enough horsepower in both CPU and Video. When I first got it my laptop was newer and faster than my desktop so that is where I tried it first. No stutterting etc. Then I tried it on my desktop which was a couple years older. Stuttering was very evident on HD and less so on SD. Then I upgraded my desktop (since I had an excuse!) and it too now works flawlessly. I'm still amazed that it pulls in 12 stations with a 6" whip.

I think the video chip and speed are most important for these units (maybe video memory too). Also newer chips work better than older ones, so if your stuff is more than 2 years old it may be too slow. You also need a fast CPU and USB port. It sounds like you maybe had 2 out of 3 on the hardware...?

Too bad. The Viore I bought is available at Walmart and it works very well if you have enough horsepower in both CPU and Video. When I first got it my laptop was newer and faster than my desktop so that is where I tried it first. No stutterting etc. Then I tried it on my desktop which was a couple years older. Stuttering was very evident on HD and less so on SD. Then I upgraded my desktop (since I had an excuse!) and it too now works flawlessly. I'm still amazed that it pulls in 12 stations with a 6" whip.

I think the video chip and speed are most important for these units (maybe video memory too). Also newer chips work better than older ones, so if your stuff is more than 2 years old it may be too slow. You also need a fast CPU and USB port. It sounds like you maybe had 2 out of 3 on the hardware...?


quarque
Thanks for the heads up on where to get it. I'll pick one up.
I thought the video might be a problem too, but I have a Nvidia HD card that's good enough to do over air in other PC's I've installed, lots of on borad memory. Wierd. My laptop has lot's of power and speed, and it also locked with their ap, but still functioned if I toggled to something else. So busy now I just didn't have the patience to play anymore. Since you had such good luck I'll just find the Viore.
Let you know how it works.
BTW, while up on Camano, I tried to get Victoria and Vancouver, BC with my meter, not even a whisper. I was on a hilltop about a half mile north of hwy 532 on Rekdal road (where do they get these names ?!). Also tried from the western side of Camano on the water, same thing. What's interesting is if you go to the Vancouver BC forum for over air
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36748&page=17
they're getting some of our stations. I haven't been able to find their equivalent site to our FCC, where it shows all the transmitter data, but haven't looked that hard, either. In any case, would be curious to find if there's anyone up north (Bellingham, Anacortes, etc) pulling in Canadian HD.
Have you heard of anyone?
Later....
Dan

This is an unsolicited plug for Dan Kurts.

Dan installed an OTA HD TV antenna system at my house 3 years ago and he did a very professional job and I get excellent reception of all the local HD TV signals.

He knows what kind of antenna to use, where to point it and how to set it up for the best possible OTA HD-TV reception in your area.

Recently, Dan has taken a lot of his time to give me personal advice on choosing and setting up a new OTA HD-TV receiver at my house even though I am not paying him a dime for this.

I know a lot of you are DIY types, but I think it is well worth the fee that Dan charges to get set up right for OTA HD-TV reception.

I'm just making this post to return the favor to Dan for sharing his professional advice with me for free.

Dan is the MAN!

SteveCoug & Whidbey
Thank you !
Always fun helping good peoples.
Dan

Dan, how does a digital signal on VHF relate to an analog one? In other words, if you get a decent analog signal for channels like 9 and 11 right now, would that mean that you should be able to receive a digital signal on the same channel as well once they switch (suppose that the transmitted signal strength is similar)? In that case you can just check what analog channels you receive at the moment and what you can expect after the switch.

Rico66
How does great analog reception relate to getting good HD reception? In the UHF freq's, and from what I've seen, about 30% of the time you could say it translates well. Since we don't have any VHF to compare to right now, hard to say what it will do. However, VHF analog is far easier to get and "bends" over hills better. Assuming they keep their same power levels (in proportion to their analog output) and the polar patterns are the same as they are now, I would say it would translate far better. Something like maybe 60% or more of the time.
Naturally, your mileage may vary. I was badly fooled when they started HD in 1997, learned a lot. We'll just have to wait and see. I'm hoping for the best. There's a lot of people out there that could use a better ch9.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I suppose I can find out sooner rather than later by attaching the CM4221 signal to the analog TV I'm using downstairs. I can see from the beam pattern of the CM4221 that performance is better with higher frequencies, so I suspect that the signal dropoff from 18 to 13 will be too much, but maybe not. I just looked up the base freq of those channels, and 18 is 494 MHz and 13 is only 210 MHz.

If I go all digital in the near future including a DVR, I could just remove the VHF combo antenna and just wait for the frequency reassignment and then replace the 4221 if needed. At least, it wouldn't be much work with all the wiring and mast already installed.

Then in the meantime, I could remove the old antenna from the chimney where it's mostly just loosening the bricks now.

benwood
One more thing to note. Analog VHF is transmitted horizontally. The elements on any VHF antenna are designed the same to keep ghosting to a minimum. The 4221 elements are not, obviously, and will most likely give you a fair amount of ghosting. That's NOT a big deal in the HD world. The biggy is level across the entire HD channel. You won't know that until they turn it on. If there's no snow in the picture, that would indicate a fairly good level, which is a good thing.
Let us know how analog looks, if you do change over, and your cross streets so I can see where it fits in to what I know.
Thanks
Dan

quarque
Thanks for the heads up on where to get it. I'll pick one up.
I thought the video might be a problem too, but I have a Nvidia HD card that's good enough to do over air in other PC's I've installed, lots of on borad memory. Wierd. My laptop has lot's of power and speed, and it also locked with their ap, but still functioned if I toggled to something else. So busy now I just didn't have the patience to play anymore. Since you had such good luck I'll just find the Viore.
Let you know how it works.
BTW, while up on Camano, I tried to get Victoria and Vancouver, BC with my meter, not even a whisper. I was on a hilltop about a half mile north of hwy 532 on Rekdal road (where do they get these names ?!). Also tried from the western side of Camano on the water, same thing. What's interesting is if you go to the Vancouver BC forum for over air
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36748&page=17
they're getting some of our stations. I haven't been able to find their equivalent site to our FCC, where it shows all the transmitter data, but haven't looked that hard, either. In any case, would be curious to find if there's anyone up north (Bellingham, Anacortes, etc) pulling in Canadian HD.
Have you heard of anyone?
Later....
Dan

Dan - I got the Viore online, walmart.com. I don't know if any stores stock it. Another thought on the Pinnacle - are your USB ports set up for 1.0 or 2.0? There is a big speed difference between them.

I recall someone posting in this forum a couple months back about getting Canadian stations, but I don't recall if it was HD or SD. There was someone in Shoreline way back that mentioned getting something up north - might have been KVOS. Perhaps these folks will repost to satisfy your curiosity.

Dan - I got the Viore online, walmart.com. I don't know if any stores stock it. Another thought on the Pinnacle - are your USB ports set up for 1.0 or 2.0? There is a big speed difference between them.

I recall someone posting in this forum a couple months back about getting Canadian stations, but I don't recall if it was HD or SD. There was someone in Shoreline way back that mentioned getting something up north - might have been KVOS. Perhaps these folks will repost to satisfy your curiosity.


quarque
Ports are 2.0. Going over to Walmart tomorrow, see what they have.

Funny thing about the KVOS. Had to do a rescan on the old E85 (power hit) and KVOS came in but no picture or sound. Indicator said 90%, steady, nobody home. Wierd. Was getting it a few weeks ago. Not much to watch there for me, so wasn't aware when it went out for me.
Have been watching 45-4 Am One once in a while. Absolutely wierd movies late night!
Dan

I was flipping through the channels last night and noticed that 22.2 (Formerly the Tube music channel) was playing the audio only from 2 1/2 Men, which was being broadcast in full on Channel 13.1.
Are Channels 22 and 13 somehow connected? Anyone know if Channel 22 has plans for their subchannel 22.2?

James

BTW, it may have been me who mentioned getting the Canadian stations. I can get analog CBC, Global, and one other fairly clear. I think they are from Victoria. I've only tried a digital scan once in that direction with no luck. Perhaps that will change later after I install my 7777, now on order.
KVOS Bellingham is one of my strongest digital stations, probably since there is not a whole lot between me and Mt Constitution.

I was flipping through the channels last night and noticed that 22.2 (Formerly the Tube music channel) was playing the audio only from 2 1/2 Men, which was being broadcast in full on Channel 13.1.
Are Channels 22 and 13 somehow connected? Anyone know if Channel 22 has plans for their subchannel 22.2?
Yes, 13 and 22 have common ownership and some common operations. A few years ago, 13.1 was simulcast on 22.2 until the FCC apparently told them to stop.

The simulcast was a big help to folks with 13.1 reception problems from Gold Mountain near Bremerton.

I'm trying to get channels 4 and 13 reliably off my roof in Lake City by installing an amplifier. I get everything else fine, but these two are weak (EyeTV says they're both 100% quality, but the signal strength jumps around and stays below 50%).

I have a Channel Master 3041 ready to install but I can't find any place in Seattle to buy 3 feet of 300 ohm wire. I tried Home Depot, Lowes, Radio Shack, Fred Meyer, Best Buy. You know, places with TVs that are open on the weekend.

Anybody know of a place that has some? I'd like to stop guessing.

I didn't realize anyone used 300 ohm line anymore. You might try Fry's or Vetco. Or use a balun with 75 ohm coax.

Which EyeTV tuner are you using? My EyeTV 500 died recently and I am looking for a replacement.

Hi,

I'm trying to help a friend set up a TV to watch OTA HD channels. The TV is the Samsung TXR2678WH 26". It is a CRT, and from what specs I've seen it does have an HD (ATSC) tuner. However, we've been unsuccessful with an (HD-capable) antenna. Most of the analog channels can be picked up, but many are very distorted. Can someone help diagnose whether or not this is a problem with the TV, the antenna, or the position of the apartment itself?

The location is downtown at 210 Wall St, which is only 1 mile away from many of the downtown stations. However, the apartment is a couple stories up, and the only open window faces Northeast. Does the antenna need to be placed to be aimed directly north? Right now, the TV and antenna are placed next to a wall, which runs Southwest to Northeast, and seems like it may be blocking signals.

I don't know what antenna we're using, but I can get that info if needed.

Thanks for any help!

Channel 9 dropped of the radar sometime today. My Samsung tuner was acting as if it was never there. Anyone know what's going on with them? I was able to tune it back in by entering the "real" channel number.
Anyway - In the process of regaining Ch9, I re-scanned and came up with a new channel, 28, which is PBS out of Tacoma. I didn't expect to get a signal from that far away - 56.4 miles according to TVFool.com. TVFool also said I would need an antenna height of 380 feet to get channel 28...:rolleyes:

James

Hi,

I'm trying to help a friend set up a TV to watch OTA HD channels. The TV is the Samsung TXR2678WH 26". It is a CRT, and from what specs I've seen it does have an HD (ATSC) tuner. However, we've been unsuccessful with an (HD-capable) antenna. Most of the analog channels can be picked up, but many are very distorted. Can someone help diagnose whether or not this is a problem with the TV, the antenna, or the position of the apartment itself?

The location is downtown at 210 Wall St, which is only 1 mile away from many of the downtown stations. However, the apartment is a couple stories up, and the only open window faces Northeast. Does the antenna need to be placed to be aimed directly north? Right now, the TV and antenna are placed next to a wall, which runs Southwest to Northeast, and seems like it may be blocking signals.

I don't know what antenna we're using, but I can get that info if needed.

Thanks for any help!


pmc255
You need to get the antenna near the window, facing north for ch's 4-5-7-16, and east for ch's 9-11-22. Ch13 is west, through the building, not much hope there. It needs to be a UHF type, and UN-amplified. Signals downtown are splattering off everything, very hot. You will find reception a real challenge. Don't be surprised if you end up with a different position for every channel.
Dan

Channel 9 dropped of the radar sometime today. My Samsung tuner was acting as if it was never there. Anyone know what's going on with them? I was able to tune it back in by entering the "real" channel number.
Anyway - In the process of regaining Ch9, I re-scanned and came up with a new channel, 28, which is PBS out of Tacoma. I didn't expect to get a signal from that far away - 56.4 miles according to TVFool.com. TVFool also said I would need an antenna height of 380 feet to get channel 28...:rolleyes:

James


James
KBTC is wierd for that stuff. There are pockets all over that make no sense. It has very little power and not much height above sea level. Go figure. Don't be surprised if it goes away. It's run by Bates Technical School in Lakewood. Sometimes I think the boys fool around with power. There's good days and bad days. Wish they would move to Gold Mt like ch13 did years ago, when they stopped using the same tower at Pt Defiance. They have good programs and offer another PBS for our area.
Dan

I actually only need the 300 ohm wire to get from the antenna to the amplifier which will be mast mounted. I have coax running down from the roof. I'll keep looking - I'll only resort to 2 baluns and 2 feet of coax if I have to (or somebody tells me it'll create a better signal).

---

I'm using a Miglia TVmini which is digital only, ATSC or QCAM. It's worked very nicely for the past year that I've had it. Miglia recently stopped bundling EyeTV with new gear (they provide other DVR software now) and I don't know if you can just plug one in to a machine licensed via different hardware.

KBTC is the only analog channel we watch. I get a fuzzy analog and a much more miss than hit digital. It's got "The Red Green Show" and "Mystery!" which are big hits at our house. It would be great if they would either boust their power or move closer to Seattle.

Wish they would move to Gold Mt like ch13 did years ago, when they stopped using the same tower at Pt Defiance.

Are you sure they didn't move to Gold Mountain? I mentioned to my co-worker that I was picking up Channel 28 and he said "that's because they broadcast from Bremerton." I pick up FOX with almost full signal strength, and get similar results from Channel 28.

KBTC is the only analog channel we watch. I get a fuzzy analog and a much more miss than hit digital. It's got "The Red Green Show" and "Mystery!" which are big hits at our house. It would be great if they would either boust their power or move closer to Seattle.

Red Green rules! I grew up in Canada and have been a Steve Smith fan for years! Possum Lodge has got North Ontario cottage country pegged, chainsaw noise in the background and all.
Try re-scanning and see if you can get KBTC digital. You might get lucky.

James

pmc255
You need to get the antenna near the window, facing north for ch's 4-5-7-16, and east for ch's 9-11-22. Ch13 is west, through the building, not much hope there. It needs to be a UHF type, and UN-amplified. Signals downtown are splattering off everything, very hot. You will find reception a real challenge. Don't be surprised if you end up with a different position for every channel.
Dan

I've tried to point the antenna north, but to no avail. Does it have to be pointing directly north with nothing blocking (except a glass window)? The apartment is facing an alley, so the top of another building is right across the way, which may make the signals bounce funny in that location.

One thing to note is that when I check the "signal strength" in the setup menu of the TV for some of the digital channels, it shows (close to) maximum strength. However, there's no image or sound whatsoever. What gives? Wrong antenna? The antenna is (Zenith I believe) HD-capable and does UHF and VHF.

Are you sure they didn't move to Gold Mountain? I mentioned to my co-worker that I was picking up Channel 28 and he said "that's because they broadcast from Bremerton." I pick up FOX with almost full signal strength, and get similar results from Channel 28.
James

If they moved they had better tell the FCC. The FCC site still has their transmitter located on Point Defiance. I believe they would not look kindly upon such a relocation without FCC approval and could pull their license. So I doubt they moved. As Dan surmized, they might be playing with a transmitter upgrade and boost the power during tests. There is also the possibility of ducting. This happens over flat areas when there is a temperature inversion or heavy cloud layer where you get a "flat" interface surface in the atmosphere that reflects signals.

quarque, Dan - I think you guys are right. 28 no longer comes in for me.

I've tried to point the antenna north, but to no avail. Does it have to be pointing directly north with nothing blocking (except a glass window)? The apartment is facing an alley, so the top of another building is right across the way, which may make the signals bounce funny in that location.

One thing to note is that when I check the "signal strength" in the setup menu of the TV for some of the digital channels, it shows (close to) maximum strength. However, there's no image or sound whatsoever. What gives? Wrong antenna? The antenna is (Zenith I believe) HD-capable and does UHF and VHF.

pmc255
You might actually be overloading the tuner. Rat Shack used to have an adjustable 20db attenuator. You could try one or a couple of 10db fixed ones, and try them one at a time for 10 and then 20db of attenuation.
Having the building across the alley makes it worse. The glass won't affect it too much, but the walls will. Try to keep it in the middle of the window if possible.
Dan

I actually only need the 300 ohm wire to get from the antenna to the amplifier which will be mast mounted. I have coax running down from the roof. I'll keep looking - I'll only resort to 2 baluns and 2 feet of coax if I have to (or somebody tells me it'll create a better signal).

---

I'm using a Miglia TVmini which is digital only, ATSC or QCAM. It's worked very nicely for the past year that I've had it. Miglia recently stopped bundling EyeTV with new gear (they provide other DVR software now) and I don't know if you can just plug one in to a machine licensed via different hardware.

Yes you can. I have a Miglia Evolution box for importing video into my Mac. It came with Miglia's older software (it was a very good deal and may be an obsolete model), but it works fine with the copy I have for my EyeTV 500. Of course, it requires that Elgato include the hardware support in EyeTV.

Dan - I got the Viore online, walmart.com. I don't know if any stores stock it. Another thought on the Pinnacle - are your USB ports set up for 1.0 or 2.0? There is a big speed difference between them.

I recall someone posting in this forum a couple months back about getting Canadian stations, but I don't recall if it was HD or SD. There was someone in Shoreline way back that mentioned getting something up north - might have been KVOS. Perhaps these folks will repost to satisfy your curiosity.

quarque
Finally got a Viore tuner. Loaded and started right up. Picked up a fair amount of channels with just the little antenna it came with. Tried the recording, worked good. Save a snap of TV, surprisingly small, only 91k. Must have a ton of compression dialed in. Some decent features. Haven't hooked it up to the outside antenna yet, should be interesting. Let ya know how it works out. Picture hardly stuttered, audio was rock solid. Seems to need a fair amount of memory for video, have to check that out. In any case, pretty slick little plug in. Didn't try the remote, but has all the buttons.
One thing on the scan. First time it didn't catch too many channels, so the second scan I did an Add Channel, reoriented the antenna to horizontal, picked up some more channels, but they didn't come reorder themselves. Not a big deal, probably in order if I did a fresh scan instead. I couldn't find any way to move the channels around so channel +/- would have them in order.
Minor thing. Video quality is decent. I'm not sure how good the video output is on my HP, but played through my hi rez CRT monitor it looked okay. Video controls a little wierd, but you can play the picture enough to make it look decent. Curious to see how it looks on my 50" Panasonic.
All in all, quite pleased with it. Small enough to take along with the laptop, recording part of app could be fun. Light years ahead of the Pinnacle tuner I returned.
Thanks again!
Dan

benwood
One more thing to note. Analog VHF is transmitted horizontally. The elements on any VHF antenna are designed the same to keep ghosting to a minimum. The 4221 elements are not, obviously, and will most likely give you a fair amount of ghosting. That's NOT a big deal in the HD world. The biggy is level across the entire HD channel. You won't know that until they turn it on. If there's no snow in the picture, that would indicate a fairly good level, which is a good thing.
Let us know how analog looks, if you do change over, and your cross streets so I can see where it fits in to what I know.
Thanks
Dan

Dan, my home's at 26th AVE NE and NE 70th Street in north Seattle (near Dahl Field). I'm a bit south of that intersection, and there is a pine tree across the street that appears to be directly between me and Ch 13 tower. The tree is perhaps 220' from my antenna.

I got the new digital TV and switched over my antenna downstairs from the old VHF/UHF combo to the CM 4221. I forgot to check the reception on the old NTSC set, but did tune the analog on the new set to see. Ch 13, the bugaboo channel, came in still, but was somewhat worse. It's clear to me that I'll need to get some better VHF coverage for when Ch 13 moves back to 13. BTW, I did noticed with the CM4221 that ghosting was more than twice as bad as before, just like you predicted.

Also, now that I'm splitting my antenna signal, that 13.1 upstairs dropped from 80-88% strength to 64-74%. I watched the Red Sox game last night (on the new set) for about 90 minutes and did not notice any dropouts (once the wind died down a bit at least). I didn't realize that the split would drop my power that much though. I've a couple question about that if you don't mind:

1) I used an old 1-to-3 splitter, although I'm only using two outputs. Would it help to replace that with a 1-to-2 splitter?

2) My antenna wire is 50' but I'm only using about 35'. Would it help much to trim that? (and is that very difficult to do?) My run upstairs (off one split) is another 50' wire and has about 10' unused, which could also be trimmed.

Thanks

p.s. I haven't figured out if signal strength is available on the new set, a Sony Bravia.

Dan, my home's at 26th AVE NE and NE 70th Street in north Seattle (near Dahl Field). I'm a bit south of that intersection, and there is a pine tree across the street that appears to be directly between me and Ch 13 tower. The tree is perhaps 220' from my antenna.

I got the new digital TV and switched over my antenna downstairs from the old VHF/UHF combo to the CM 4221. I forgot to check the reception on the old NTSC set, but did tune the analog on the new set to see. Ch 13, the bugaboo channel, came in still, but was somewhat worse. It's clear to me that I'll need to get some better VHF coverage for when Ch 13 moves back to 13. BTW, I did noticed with the CM4221 that ghosting was more than twice as bad as before, just like you predicted.

Also, now that I'm splitting my antenna signal, that 13.1 upstairs dropped from 80-88% strength to 64-74%. I watched the Red Sox game last night (on the new set) for about 90 minutes and did not notice any dropouts (once the wind died down a bit at least). I didn't realize that the split would drop my power that much though. I've a couple question about that if you don't mind:

1) I used an old 1-to-3 splitter, although I'm only using two outputs. Would it help to replace that with a 1-to-2 splitter?

2) My antenna wire is 50' but I'm only using about 35'. Would it help much to trim that? (and is that very difficult to do?) My run upstairs (off one split) is another 50' wire and has about 10' unused, which could also be trimmed.

Thanks

p.s. I haven't figured out if signal strength is available on the new set, a Sony Bravia.

benwood
Use a 2way splitter. 3way's have one port that's the same as the 2way, but the other is twice as much loss. Normally, in your area, that's not a big deal, but it's such a cheap fix, do it. If you were to keep the 3way you need to terminate that unused port.
Trimming that small amount of cable is not going to make any difference for you.
The pine tree could very well be the culprit on ch13. Make sure the antenna is pointed SW, give or take. Try another location, too. A few feet one way or the other could be just enough to get around it.
You can't really tell "strength", only that the signal got worse. I seriously doubt you lost enough signal level to make that much difference. More likely it's a combination of several thisngs. The unterminated 3way, poor fittings on the cable, bad or abused coax could all be at cause. Take the splitter out and couple the antenna to the new TV and see what happens. Use it that way until you get the ch13 problem sorted. Then you can split it and I doubt you'll see any difference.
How well the 4221 will work for VHF HD is hard to tell. Bottom line is you're in a good spot. I wouldn't worry about it.
Dan

Dan, if you don't mind my piggybacking on the previous question about cable length.

I estimate that I've got 25 to 35 feet of "excess" cable at the moment. I've kind of coiled it. Would trimming that excess make a difference. And as the other guy asked, is this hard or will I ruin the connection/connectors with RadioShack available tools for cutting, crimping and connecting?

I'm still trying to decide the antenna location which explains the "excess" cable length.

quarque
Finally got a Viore tuner. Loaded and started right up. Picked up a fair amount of channels with just the little antenna it came with. Tried the recording, worked good. Save a snap of TV, surprisingly small, only 91k. Must have a ton of compression dialed in. Some decent features. Haven't hooked it up to the outside antenna yet, should be interesting. Let ya know how it works out. Picture hardly stuttered, audio was rock solid. Seems to need a fair amount of memory for video, have to check that out. In any case, pretty slick little plug in. Didn't try the remote, but has all the buttons.
One thing on the scan. First time it didn't catch too many channels, so the second scan I did an Add Channel, reoriented the antenna to horizontal, picked up some more channels, but they didn't come reorder themselves. Not a big deal, probably in order if I did a fresh scan instead. I couldn't find any way to move the channels around so channel +/- would have them in order.
Minor thing. Video quality is decent. I'm not sure how good the video output is on my HP, but played through my hi rez CRT monitor it looked okay. Video controls a little wierd, but you can play the picture enough to make it look decent. Curious to see how it looks on my 50" Panasonic.
All in all, quite pleased with it. Small enough to take along with the laptop, recording part of app could be fun. Light years ahead of the Pinnacle tuner I returned.
Thanks again!
Dan

Glad to hear it worked OK for you. I too was amazed at the tuner performance with the little 6" whip antenna. Obviously light years ahead of my Samsung (gigantic) box. I guess if you throw away the video output portion and the power supply you can shrink things quite a bit!

I noticed mine gets quite warm when on an HD channel. I agree that the controls are a bit funky and station ordering is odd. It kinda reminds me of beta test stuff, not ready for prime time. Maybe there will be a software update...

That Pinnacle sounded like a dud. I bet the guts are the same but their software is crap.

If it's high quality cable, and you have decent signal strength, 25 to 30 ft. is not likely to make any difference.

If you have the proper tools, cutting and reinstalling new connectors is very easy to do. You can find the tools and connectors not only at radio shack, but also at hardware stores that sell cable like home depot.

Dan, if you don't mind my piggybacking on the previous question about cable length.

I estimate that I've got 25 to 35 feet of "excess" cable at the moment. I've kind of coiled it. Would trimming that excess make a difference. And as the other guy asked, is this hard or will I ruin the connection/connectors with RadioShack available tools for cutting, crimping and connecting?

I'm still trying to decide the antenna location which explains the "excess" cable length.

Dan, if you don't mind my piggybacking on the previous question about cable length.

I estimate that I've got 25 to 35 feet of "excess" cable at the moment. I've kind of coiled it. Would trimming that excess make a difference. And as the other guy asked, is this hard or will I ruin the connection/connectors with RadioShack available tools for cutting, crimping and connecting?

I'm still trying to decide the antenna location which explains the "excess" cable length.

fred2
That small amount of length isn't going to make that much difference.
If you want to do a fitting, that's cool, too. Since you're still in the experimental stage, might be best to just leave it. One less thing to add problems. You can always trim it after you get it sorted.
Dan

Woodway, Dan

Thanks for the replies. It sounds as if EXCESS is not that much of an issue. Other than my basement ceiling (unfinished anyway) is a series of dangling wires to accompany the cob and spiderwebs!

Do those of you who watch KOMO OTA have a lot of problems with Desperate Housewives? It seems like every week, there is some problem with that show (almost always audio-related) for us (via Comcast) and I'm wondering if it's Comcast problems, KOMO problems or network problems. The audio is frequently out of sync with the video. We've never had that problem on another channel (DH is the only network HD show we watch on ABC, so I can't make a comparison to other ABC shows). Sometimes the audio mix will be messed up so we don't get some of the channels. Occasionally we'll get a loud clicking or buzzing in the audio. Again, we watch a lot of HD programming and we've only ever had this happen during Desperate Housewives, so I don't think it's a problem with our equipment (though maybe it's trying to tell us not to watch that show!).

Do those of you who watch KOMO OTA have a lot of problems with Desperate Housewives? It seems like every week, there is some problem with that show (almost always audio-related) for us (via Comcast) and I'm wondering if it's Comcast problems, KOMO problems or network problems. The audio is frequently out of sync with the video. We've never had that problem on another channel (DH is the only network HD show we watch on ABC, so I can't make a comparison to other ABC shows). Sometimes the audio mix will be messed up so we don't get some of the channels. Occasionally we'll get a loud clicking or buzzing in the audio. Again, we watch a lot of HD programming and we've only ever had this happen during Desperate Housewives, so I don't think it's a problem with our equipment (though maybe it's trying to tell us not to watch that show!).
I don't normally watch but I tuned in to check it out. The audio was slightly out of synch for the couple of minutes that I watched over the air. But there were no other video or audio issues.

I have been gradually losing my OTA KOMO-DT HD signal over the last several weeks, to where now it is unwatchable because of too many long dropouts, or in some cases, no reception at all. This occurs on three different HD receivers, so I suspect I have some trees nearby edging into my line of sight with KOMO, which has always been my weakest "big 3" HD signal.

Does anyone know of anything else that might have changed that might have dropped me below the threshold of usuable KOMO-DT reception?

Also, I am not sure which tower is which on Queen Anne Hill. Does someone know which one is KOMO? I am considering moving my outdoor antenna, which is currently at the east end of my house, so my only possible direction to move it is west and/or up. I rarely have any breakups or dropouts on KIRO-DT or KING-DT.

FWIW, I have had great OTA HD reception from QA since I started with HD in late 1999, with a chimney-mounted Radio Shack UHF yagi 15-2160. I also have no problems with Gold Mountain KCPQ-DT nor with Capitol Hill KCTS-HD and channel 11-1 (can't remember their new call sign right now).

I have been gradually losing my OTA KOMO-DT HD signal over the last several weeks, to where now it is unwatchable because of too many long dropouts, or in some cases, no reception at all. This occurs on three different HD receivers, so I suspect I have some trees nearby edging into my line of sight with KOMO, which has always been my weakest "big 3" HD signal.

Does anyone know of anything else that might have changed that might have dropped me below the threshold of usuable KOMO-DT reception?

Also, I am not sure which tower is which on Queen Anne Hill. Does someone know which one is KOMO? I am considering moving my outdoor antenna, which is currently at the east end of my house, so my only possible direction to move it is west and/or up. I rarely have any breakups or dropouts on KIRO-DT or KING-DT.

FWIW, I have had great OTA HD reception from QA since I started with HD in late 1999, with a chimney-mounted Radio Shack UHF yagi 15-2160. I also have no problems with Gold Mountain KCPQ-DT nor with Capitol Hill KCTS-HD and channel 11-1 (can't remember their new call sign right now).

Same here as well. I noticed some problems yesterday evening and the reception is still pretty shaky today. My TV tuner still pulls it in, but the 2 PC tuners have lots of breakups. All other stations come in fine as usual.

Since it was nice out yesterday, I was able to get on the roof and install my new CM7777 pre-amp. I was hoping for better results, but am feeling a little bit let down by what it didn't do for me.
Here's my findings so far:

VHF channels 7 and above - Fantastic! Brings them in really sharp. That's what i expected since I have a 4228 antenna. But I really care about VHF since it's going away eventually.
VHF channels below 7 - makes them worse, but I don't care.

Now for the digital channels:
Channel 4 - I was able to get it OK before, no difference in signal strength.
Channel 5 - I've always had a difficult time with channel 5. It did give me a few extra bars in the minutes after it was installed. Then the bars dropped down to 2. However, we were able to watch Ch. 5 with minimal audio drops and pixels, but no lost signal last night.
Channel 7 - 7 has always been strong for me, now it's even better.
Channel 9 - Has always been hit and miss, came in (barely) after the 7777 was hooked up, then stopped coming in at all. haven't been able to tune to it since.
Channels 11 and above - All come in with extra bars. Channel 13 displays all 10 bars in signal strength.

What perplexed me the most was Channel 9. If I could get a watchable signal before installing the 7777, why did it totally disappear after the 7777? Is it possible my 7777 is defective?

Any thoughts?

james

Since it was nice out yesterday, I was able to get on the roof and install my new CM7777 pre-amp. I was hoping for better results, but am feeling a little bit let down by what it didn't do for me.
Here's my findings so far:

VHF channels 7 and above - Fantastic! Brings them in really sharp. That's what i expected since I have a 4228 antenna. But I really care about VHF since it's going away eventually.
VHF channels below 7 - makes them worse, but I don't care.

Now for the digital channels:
Channel 4 - I was able to get it OK before, no difference in signal strength.
Channel 5 - I've always had a difficult time with channel 5. It did give me a few extra bars in the minutes after it was installed. Then the bars dropped down to 2. However, we were able to watch Ch. 5 with minimal audio drops and pixels, but no lost signal last night.
Channel 7 - 7 has always been strong for me, now it's even better.
Channel 9 - Has always been hit and miss, came in (barely) after the 7777 was hooked up, then stopped coming in at all. haven't been able to tune to it since.
Channels 11 and above - All come in with extra bars. Channel 13 displays all 10 bars in signal strength.

What perplexed me the most was Channel 9. If I could get a watchable signal before installing the 7777, why did it totally disappear after the 7777? Is it possible my 7777 is defective?

Any thoughts?

james

Actually, your results are not that unusual. I doubt your amplifier is defective. Amplifiers boost both signal and noise equally, as well as reflections (multipath). If some of those were just below the receiver threshhold then maybe now they are being picked up by the tuner and so now it can't find any good signal in all the mess. This is why amps are a last resort and normally recommended only for long cable runs or extreme distances. Have you tried changing the antenna orientation slightly left-right to see if that helps? The next step is to try different locations. And finally, a different antenna. Keep in mind that 9,11,13 are reverting back to VHF at the BIG SWITCH in 2009 when you consider antenna changes.

Same here as well. I noticed some problems yesterday evening and the reception is still pretty shaky today. My TV tuner still pulls it in, but the 2 PC tuners have lots of breakups. All other stations come in fine as usual.

Rico66 & Dave
KOMO looking good here, same level, +/- .2db, waveshape and BER looking fine. Local news casts rock solid.
Dan

Actually, your results are not that unusual. I doubt your amplifier is defective. Amplifiers boost both signal and noise equally, as well as reflections (multipath). If some of those were just below the receiver threshhold then maybe now they are being picked up by the tuner and so now it can't find any good signal in all the mess. This is why amps are a last resort and normally recommended only for long cable runs or extreme distances. Have you tried changing the antenna orientation slightly left-right to see if that helps? The next step is to try different locations. And finally, a different antenna. Keep in mind that 9,11,13 are reverting back to VHF at the BIG SWITCH in 2009 when you consider antenna changes.

Quarque - Thanks for the info. One thing I noticed was that if I viewed PBS analog and moved the antenna way to the left (almost pointed east), then the ghosting would go away and I had a clearer picture. I did a scan in that position but still no joy.
I think the next step I will try is to raise the antenna. My set-up is getting a little heavy for my eave mount (although it's survived the windstorm just fine) and I want to upgrade to a tripod mount and a thrust bearing for my rotator. So that would be a logical time to get a 10 foot mast and see what happens.
Can raising an antenna reduce the noise and clean up the signal?

James

I tried Terk and RCA indoor antenna yesterday and pointed the antenna to south-southwest according to AntennaWeb, but can't pick up even one station (digital or non-digital) (with or without amplifier).

I am about to return the Antennas but I thought I should ask here first.

I live close to kirkland costco, there are no hills or tall buildings close by. Could someone close by share your experience?

The TV is not close to the window, could the signal be blocked by the walls?

If indoor antennas don't work, I wonder if anyone has any success with the dish clip-on antenna?

Thanks!

Rico66 & Dave
KOMO looking good here, same level, +/- .2db, waveshape and BER looking fine. Local news casts rock solid.
Dan

Yes, it was fine again yesterday. I can't recall that I had any problems with KOMO in the past, and then I saw Dave's post right at the same time, when I noticed some drop outs. Strange, but not repro anymore...

Quarque - Thanks for the info. One thing I noticed was that if I viewed PBS analog and moved the antenna way to the left (almost pointed east), then the ghosting would go away and I had a clearer picture. I did a scan in that position but still no joy.
I think the next step I will try is to raise the antenna. My set-up is getting a little heavy for my eave mount (although it's survived the windstorm just fine) and I want to upgrade to a tripod mount and a thrust bearing for my rotator. So that would be a logical time to get a 10 foot mast and see what happens.
Can raising an antenna reduce the noise and clean up the signal?

James

Anything is possible. Your experiment may indicate a strong reflection coming from the east. You might want to check digital signal about every 10 degrees going west to east to see if there is more than one hot spot.

Usually higher is better unless you're trying to shoot under a tree canopy. What are your nearest cross streets and what is your elevation?

I tried Terk and RCA indoor antenna yesterday and pointed the antenna to south-southwest according to AntennaWeb, but can't pick up even one station (digital or non-digital) (with or without amplifier).

I am about to return the Antennas but I thought I should ask here first.

I live close to kirkland costco, there are no hills or tall buildings close by. Could someone close by share your experience?

The TV is not close to the window, could the signal be blocked by the walls?

If indoor antennas don't work, I wonder if anyone has any success with the dish clip-on antenna?

Thanks!


testarc
Something is obviously wrong. That's a good area, normally. Unless you're in a concrete basement and no windows, you should have analog. May not be pretty, but should have clear sound and some picture. Try those same antennas on another TV, bet they work okay. You may have a bad fitting on the back of your TV or it's tuner is having a bad day.
The clip on sat antennas are a joke. The only place they would work at all, would be somewhere close, like Ballard, where you're NW of the towers.
Dan

Anything is possible. Your experiment may indicate a strong reflection coming from the east. You might want to check digital signal about every 10 degrees going west to east to see if there is more than one hot spot.

Usually higher is better unless you're trying to shoot under a tree canopy.

Yesterday, since it was nice out again, I did do some experimenting. I connected a longer cable to my antenna and walked around on the roof, and held the antenna high. It's not easy with a 4228! :o Anyway, I discovered that it's most likely my neighbors house causing the issue. Currently, my antenna is about 6 feet or so above the peak of my roof. If I stand and look through the center of my antenna, I barely see over my neighbors roof. If I move the antenna to one side, about 8 to 10 feet, and hold it up, I can get around the house and get a stronger signal, even before raising the antenna.
So, of to Fry's to buy a tripod.

What are your nearest cross streets and what is your elevation?
I know I'm in a good area. It's at about 300 feet elevation, near the corner of 64 Street and 76th Ave NE in Marysville. On my roof, I have a clear view towards Seattle and the sound.

James

Thanks a lot! I will try again.

testarc
Something is obviously wrong. That's a good area, normally. Unless you're in a concrete basement and no windows, you should have analog. May not be pretty, but should have clear sound and some picture. Try those same antennas on another TV, bet they work okay. You may have a bad fitting on the back of your TV or it's tuner is having a bad day.
The clip on sat antennas are a joke. The only place they would work at all, would be somewhere close, like Ballard, where you're NW of the towers.
Dan

Hi

I'm trying to determine my chances of receiving the Seattle HD OTA signals from my location. Actually, I did a VERY crude test and just hooked up a chunk of RG6 and held my finger on the end of it and let the tv do a channel search. I got at least a half dozen channels like that :)

My nearest cross streets are NE 30th St and 137 Ave NE in Belleuve (98005).

I'm hoping to at least get the major networks and they didn't come in with my highly scientific test.

Thanks for any help you can provide! This is a great group!

Yesterday, since it was nice out again, I did do some experimenting. I connected a longer cable to my antenna and walked around on the roof, and held the antenna high. It's not easy with a 4228! :o Anyway, I discovered that it's most likely my neighbors house causing the issue. Currently, my antenna is about 6 feet or so above the peak of my roof. If I stand and look through the center of my antenna, I barely see over my neighbors roof. If I move the antenna to one side, about 8 to 10 feet, and hold it up, I can get around the house and get a stronger signal, even before raising the antenna.
So, of to Fry's to buy a tripod.


I know I'm in a good area. It's at about 300 feet elevation, near the corner of 64 Street and 76th Ave NE in Marysville. On my roof, I have a clear view towards Seattle and the sound.

James

Sounds like you're on the right track. Let me know how the tripod goes. The weather should be on your side this weekend - I'll be on my roof as well (cleaning gutters, what fun...).

I brought this up earlier in a what if scenario. Now I have an interest in actually attempting it. I have two antennas. My main antenna is aimed at Seattle and gets the Seattle stations just fine. I got a new smaller UHF only antenna that is aimed at Tiger Mountain and it gets the tiger mountain stations just fine. There is about 100 degrees of difference between them.

As far as I can tell, here are my options.

#1. Ditch Tiger Mountain. This would save me a lot of heartache and I only gain KWPX, KWDK, KHVC and KUNS from there.

#2. Rotator. I don't like the idea of moving an antenna that properly aimed in the first place. Doing it a couple of times a day seems like a bad idea. Other downsides: This feeds multiple TVs (changes for one = changes for all), How do I coordinate the rotator with Tivo?

#3. switch at the head end. This has all the same disadvantages of rotator except you don't move the properly aimed antenna.

#4. switches at the tail end. This solves the multiple TV issue (changes for me and only for me) but it still has the Tivo cordination issue and I would also have to rewire to add a second coaxial line for each TV.

#5. join the antennas at the head end. This is the option I want to at least figure out how much it's going cost if I'm going to do it. It's also the most esthetically pleasing solution

channel 33 from tm (one unused "buffer" channel on both sides)
channel 42 from tm (two unused "buffer" channels before and one after)
channel 44 from tm (one unused "buffer" channels before and three after)
channel 50 from tm (one unused "buffer" channel before and end of the line channel after)

So, I could order four Jointennas and it "seems" like that would "probably" work. Cost = 4 * $32.12 = $128.48.

Two questions.

How wide is the attenuation skirt with these Jointennas? Is one unused buffer channel really going to be enough?

Is there a better way to do this? Can I order a custom made antenna joiner that handle multiple channels?

Thank in advance for any and all help.

I brought this up earlier in a what if scenario. Now I have an interest in actually attempting it. I have two antennas. My main antenna is aimed at Seattle and gets the Seattle stations just fine. I got a new smaller UHF only antenna that is aimed at Tiger Mountain and it gets the tiger mountain stations just fine. There is about 100 degrees of difference between them.

As far as I can tell, here are my options.

#1. Ditch Tiger Mountain. This would save me a lot of heartache and I only gain KWPX, KWDK, KHVC and KUNS from there.

#2. Rotator. I don't like the idea of moving an antenna that properly aimed in the first place. Doing it a couple of times a day seems like a bad idea. Other downsides: This feeds multiple TVs (changes for one = changes for all), How do I coordinate the rotator with Tivo?

#3. switch at the head end. This has all the same disadvantages of rotator except you don't move the properly aimed antenna.

#4. switches at the tail end. This solves the multiple TV issue (changes for me and only for me) but it still has the Tivo cordination issue and I would also have to rewire to add a second coaxial line for each TV.

#5. join the antennas at the head end. This is the option I want to at least figure out how much it's going cost if I'm going to do it. It's also the most esthetically pleasing solution

channel 33 from tm (one unused "buffer" channel on both sides)
channel 42 from tm (two unused "buffer" channels before and one after)
channel 44 from tm (one unused "buffer" channels before and three after)
channel 50 from tm (one unused "buffer" channel before and end of the line channel after)

So, I could order four Jointennas and it "seems" like that would "probably" work. Cost = 4 * $32.12 = $128.48.

Two questions.

How wide is the attenuation skirt with these Jointennas? Is one unused buffer channel really going to be enough?

Is there a better way to do this? Can I order a custom made antenna joiner that handle multiple channels?

Thank in advance for any and all help.

zyland
Well, you would be the first person ever asking about trying to get anything from Tiger Mt. I've never had anyone give a rats about those stations when I've asked. Still, to each his own.

Options:
1 Sounds like a winner.
2 Coordinating Tivo with rotator is almost impossible, and you know about the problems.
3 Nothing gained by switching at head end except one less lead in wire, which you already ran in anyway.
4 You can still do it at tail end, but requires splitting each antenna and joining with two switches. They do make IR remote antenna switches, but again, you would have to tackle the Tivo issue of controlling which input on switch. Still tough.
5 Jointenna's have VERY wide skirts, about 4 or 5 channels either side of the desired one, and they're only about 12db deep at the notch, pretty wimpy. This means that if you tried to couple ch 42, you would loose channels 37 to 49 on the Seattle antenna, and probably ch36, too. Trying to couple many joiners causes further problems of interaction between themselves, gets ugly in hurry.

So, around here, only ch13 fox (actually ch18 UHF, nearest HD channel 22, actually ch25 UHF, thus 7 channels higher) and ch5 king (actually ch 48 UHF, nearest HD channel worth talking about is ch 9, actually ch41 UHF, thus 7 channels below it) can really be coupled. And both antennas need to be fairly close in level, or one will override the other and it won't work very well, if at all. Most common I use is ch18 for fox. Any other's will wipeout their neighbor frequencies.

Do they make UHF joiners/band pass/traps that are better ? Sure, but they're custom order, and very spendy. Even the Blonder Tongue adjustable UHF trap, which is only slightly better than the Jointenna, costs $350, and you would need two, one for each antenna. And it's a bear to play with, because now you get into standing waves running up and down between them as they interact on each other.

Now years ago, they used to make VHF joiner/couplers. Used them all the time in high end setups, like TV stores, big apartment buildings. Bring in leads for Low VHF, High VHF, sometimes 4 or 5 antennas. They had band passes for Seattle of ch4-5-7-9-11-13. Had 30-40db of trapping between, and in the VHF world, you only need one channel above and below (ch4 & 5 have a big gap between them frequency wise). Also Jointennas for those frequencies had 30db minimum for trapping, usually. But, UHF is another story. Much higher frequency, tough to get deep tight skirts on the bandpass and trap.

But, you say, how is it some HD UHF channels can be right next to each other, like kiro 39 and komo 38? Well, digital world can live it. What makes it bad when mixing two antennas, though, is one is going to pick up a slightly different level, waveshape and be ahead of the other. This causes phase problems, and your signal gets parts or all of it wiped out, among other problems.

In short, you're best option is 1.

If you don't need to worry about recording, then use the Rat Shack A/B remote antenna switch. Has discrete codes, so if you have a programmable remote that can do macro's, you simply set each channel macro up with a corresponding A or B for the proper antenna. Set it up at the back of the TV or tuner and your good to go.

Dan

Hi

I'm trying to determine my chances of receiving the Seattle HD OTA signals from my location. Actually, I did a VERY crude test and just hooked up a chunk of RG6 and held my finger on the end of it and let the tv do a channel search. I got at least a half dozen channels like that :)

My nearest cross streets are NE 30th St and 137 Ave NE in Belleuve (98005).

I'm hoping to at least get the major networks and they didn't come in with my highly scientific test.

Thanks for any help you can provide! This is a great group!

linux_geek
That's NOT a good location. The hill still rises to the west until 134th, and then again in the Bridal Trails park to the west. And there's a half mile plus of heavy trees. I only got one antenna to work near you, on 134th and 32nd, and it only got some of the channels. You will pick up the channels from Tiger, ch's 33, 42, 45, 51, to the SE, and analog VHF will come in, very ghosty, but strong. I have done surveys all around you. Very tough.
Never say never. I have not tried one of the new Samsung H260 tuners there, or one of the newer PC tuners. You might have a shot with them. You will DEFINITELY want to use a yagi style antenna. Location and aiming will be very fussy.
All my customers there are on satellite, if they can see through the trees, or cable.
Dan

Thanks for the quick and knowledgable response Dan.

I definitely got the impression from the Warren Electronics website that the Jointennas only needed a single channel for the skirt which didn't seem to jib with what I had read previously. Good to know that 4 or 5 channels is a more reasonable minimum buffer for the Jointenna. Also that chaining this presents it's own problems. So Jointenna is right out. Also sounds like the Blonder Tongue UHF trap might work but it's going to cost me $700 for starters which means it is also right out.

Any recommendations for good books on "how antennas work"?

I brought this up earlier in a what if scenario. Now I have an interest in actually attempting it. I have two antennas. My main antenna is aimed at Seattle and gets the Seattle stations just fine. I got a new smaller UHF only antenna that is aimed at Tiger Mountain and it gets the tiger mountain stations just fine. There is about 100 degrees of difference between them.

[insert a bunch of options here]

Thank in advance for any and all help.I mean seriously, do you really want KHCV, Daystar, Univision, and PAX/"I"/ION or whatever it's called these days? Junk channels IMO. Listed option one is the easiest and easily the most convenient. Plus you can give (or sell) your removed antenna to a friend.

I hope that the main antenna has no trouble picking up analogs 9, 11, and 13, for when they become digital frequencies.

The only reason we aim our antenna at Tiger Mountain is for Ch 33's Qubo. The kids like it.

James

Thanks DanKurts. Yes, I've got D* right now, but only the first satellite because there is only a small opening in the trees. No chance on the others I'm afraid unless I run a few hundred feet of cable.

I hate to switch to Comcast because they're so expensive and reading the Seattle Comcast forum doesn't help things. Those guys are looking to switch over to Directv!

But I'm afraid if I want to get any HD channels, it looks like my choices are extremely limited.

I picked up a cheapo antenna at Rat Shack today trying to see if I could pick anything up. I ended up getting channel 33 out of Bellevue, and that's it. I was also able to get a very staticy analog KIRO.

My location is in Redmond at NE 62nd way and 188th lane (on the third floor of a three-floor building). My options for antennas are limited since I'm in an apartment. Anyone successful in this area?

Thanks DanKurts. Yes, I've got D* right now, but only the first satellite because there is only a small opening in the trees. No chance on the others I'm afraid unless I run a few hundred feet of cable.

I hate to switch to Comcast because they're so expensive and reading the Seattle Comcast forum doesn't help things. Those guys are looking to switch over to Directv!

But I'm afraid if I want to get any HD channels, it looks like my choices are extremely limited.

linux_geek
Running satellite cable that far is not a big deal. I usually put it inside flexible PVC and bury it. Mount the dish on a pole, preferably set in concrete, and use in line amplifiers, separate power supply for them or a good powered switch and it works fine. Maybe $100 worth of materials, plus switch cost, unless the Direct boys will give you one. Then let them install the new dish.

Or, you could get basic $13/mo cable and a QAM capable tuner, like the Samsung H260 and it would give you all the Seattle HD. Save you $15-20/mo for the Comcast box.
Dan

I picked up a cheapo antenna at Rat Shack today trying to see if I could pick anything up. I ended up getting channel 33 out of Bellevue, and that's it. I was also able to get a very staticy analog KIRO.

My location is in Redmond at NE 62nd way and 188th lane (on the third floor of a three-floor building). My options for antennas are limited since I'm in an apartment. Anyone successful in this area?

sullim4
You're in a bad spot, behind the hill to the west. Being in an apartment makes it worse. There are some people, a few blocks NE of you with outside antennas, that have told me they get some channels. I've not verified or seen what or how well. You need to have a window facing west. You could try a 4221 at that window and see what happens. Windows facing any other directions won't work.
Dan

Thanks for the quick and knowledgable response Dan.

I definitely got the impression from the Warren Electronics website that the Jointennas only needed a single channel for the skirt which didn't seem to jib with what I had read previously. Good to know that 4 or 5 channels is a more reasonable minimum buffer for the Jointenna. Also that chaining this presents it's own problems. So Jointenna is right out. Also sounds like the Blonder Tongue UHF trap might work but it's going to cost me $700 for starters which means it is also right out.

Any recommendations for good books on "how antennas work"?

zyland
The BT traps mentioned are "fun" to work with. Without a digital meter/analyzer, though, you would be totally lost. Using the "indicator" on your receiver is not a level meter, just signal to noise ratio, and works above about -12db. You will not see it increase/decrease like a regular meter would, or as needed to tune traps.

Always glad to help educate on antennas. This is one of my fav sources. Lots of good stuff, presented in a manner most can grasp.
http://kyes.info/antenna/antennadex.html
Lots of patience and persistence will accomplish some amazing things. This antenna was a tortured 4228, bent 7 ways from Sunday, trying to get reception like you, from two directions. I put the meter on it. Signal was horrible, but the tuner was a PC card, and very good, able to live with it.
Got some stations. Also mounted in a plumbing vent pipe, big no-no. Whipped around in the wind, too. Replaced it with a 4221, half of a 4228, mounted it about 10 ft away, worked well.
Which brings up the next question: did you ever try a 4221? They pick up over a wide area, usually 60 to 70 degrees either side of main direction. Might just solve your problems.
What's your location, approx?
Dan

I mean seriously, do you really want KHCV, Daystar, Univision, and PAX/"I"/ION or whatever it's called these days? Junk channels IMO. Listed option one is the easiest and easily the most convenient. Plus you can give (or sell) your removed antenna to a friend.

I hope that the main antenna has no trouble picking up analogs 9, 11, and 13, for when they become digital frequencies.
Daystar = Not really my thing, including it for completeness
KHCV = might watch some of the sports channel
Univision = the telenovelas are entertaining. probably BECAUSE I don't speak spanish. I might watch infrequently.
ION = Would like qubo for the kids. ION is weird, mostly it's a paid programming but in prime time, it has a weird assortment of TV series from decades ago. Occasionally, I might want to catch an episode of "Perfect Strangers" or "The Golden Years" when nothing else is on.

The truth is that I can live without all of these channels. This is an experiment for me. I picked up a $30 UHF-only antenna from Radio Shack and it worked great when I clipped it to the bottom of the main antenna mast and aimed it at tiger mountain. All of these digital channels came in really clear on the secondary antenna. There is about 5 feet of clearance between the two antennas.

My main antenna is a huge VHF/UHF antenna that picks up 9, 11 and 13 great on both the analog and digital channels. I hoping that when the VHF channels go digital, I'll still be able to pick them up.

I'd also like to pick up digital KBTC and KVOS. KBTC might be possible with a little $30 antenna (I get the analog scratchy with the main antenna) but KVOS sounds like a serious challenge.

zyland
Which brings up the next question: did you ever try a 4221? They pick up over a wide area, usually 60 to 70 degrees either side of main direction. Might just solve your problems.
What's your location, approx?
Dan
I almost picked one up after the final channel assignments were announced. I was a little concerned that 9, 11 and 13 were going to go VHF and didn't know what kind of reception I could get with a 4221.

I'm at the top of education hill in Redmond. Nearby major cross streets 166 AVE NE and NE 104th ST

I almost picked one up after the final channel assignments were announced. I was a little concerned that 9, 11 and 13 were going to go VHF and didn't know what kind of reception I could get with a 4221.

I'm at the top of education hill in Redmond. Nearby major cross streets 166 AVE NE and NE 104th ST


zyland
That's a great spot. 4221 would work well there. It's a cheap antenna. Just put it up, point it SW and I bet they all come in. I think your worrying way too much about the VHF problems. Since you already have the big boy up and running, just add the 4221. Then couple them together with a UHF/VHF splitter/combiner. It will keep the UHF on the big boy from bothering anything. If you want to play with KVOS, keep the RatShack antenna, and the second lead in, point it NW, and it might just work. It's about 76 miles from you. A preamp might be needed, but that's cool, too. It will only be for the weak one, and keep the lead separate for power reasons.
KBTC will be tough. It's very weak, and low on the horizon for you. A preamp to get it will just give you problems with the others.
What receiver are you using?
Dan

zyland
What receiver are you using?
Dan
#1. built-in tuner on a Mitsubishi WD-62525, sevicable but ugh. Doesn't handle dropouts well at all. KCPQ is sometimes hard to watch.
#2. Pinnacle PCTV HD Stick that I'm happy with. Handles KCPQ very well. I use it in a Vista Media Center DVR setup and it works well.

Purchased an Epson 76C projector to view travel pics and the occasional DVD. Upon reading the manual I saw that the projector is HD capable to 1080i. Has a component hookup (via VGA) but no HDMI.

After discovering the existence of ATSC tuners I bought (with not too much expectation of success) a Samsung H260F DTB at Circuit City. Attached the cheapest, non-amplified rabbit ears I could find. Computer style speakers. The only hint of a problem was that I needed an adapter from VGA to component. This was solved easily at VETCO.

Voila!!! Free, brilliant HD reception on what I think are all of the local channels and reception that I cannot get close to on my analog TVs.

Near downtown Kirkland but in the shadow of some larger townhouses -- amazing!!!

Purchased an Epson 76C projector to view travel pics and the occasional DVD. Upon reading the manual I saw that the projector is HD capable to 1080i. Has a component hookup (via VGA) but no HDMI.

After discovering the existence of ATSC tuners I bought (with not too much expectation of success) a Samsung H260F DTB at Circuit City. Attached the cheapest, non-amplified rabbit ears I could find. Computer style speakers. The only hint of a problem was that I needed an adapter from VGA to component. This was solved easily at VETCO.

Voila!!! Free, brilliant HD reception on what I think are all of the local channels and reception that I cannot get close to on my analog TVs.

Near downtown Kirkland but in the shadow of some larger townhouses -- amazing!!!


Jiminkirkland
Well done.
You did it right. Non amplified antenna for your location and that tuner. It's an amazing little receiver.
Now if you want to, you can also use that same tuner on your analog TV. Set it for 4:3 picture and the switch on the back to 480i, hook up the composite or S-video and audio, and you have the same clear pictures. Not in HD, obviously, but you'll be amazed how good your old TV works with that clean noise free feed. Just be sure to set everything up on the HD set, first, then flip the switch on the back and hook it up. For some stupid reason, the menu and setup doesn't show on the composite out!
Dan

I give up the indoor antenna idea. Not sure if it's the fireplace or garage, but the best I can get is one analog.

So could someone recommend a VERY small outdoor antenna? Thanks!

I give up the indoor antenna idea. Not sure if it's the fireplace or garage, but the best I can get is one analog.

So could someone recommend a VERY small outdoor antenna? Thanks!

Channel Master 4221. Not much bigger than a sat dish. Or you could try a 4220, which is about 1/2 the size of the 4221. Mounts the same way a sat dish mounts, so a mount should be easy/cheap to find.

James

linux_geek
Running satellite cable that far is not a big deal. I usually put it inside flexible PVC and bury it. Mount the dish on a pole, preferably set in concrete, and use in line amplifiers, separate power supply for them or a good powered switch and it works fine. Maybe $100 worth of materials, plus switch cost, unless the Direct boys will give you one. Then let them install the new dish.

Or, you could get basic $13/mo cable and a QAM capable tuner, like the Samsung H260 and it would give you all the Seattle HD. Save you $15-20/mo for the Comcast box.
Dan

Who offers a package for that price? The lowest I could find on Comcast website it the Family Tier for $31/month, plus install...

Who offers a package for that price? The lowest I could find on Comcast website it the Family Tier for $31/month, plus install...

I don't think they promote that rate, you have to request it.

James

Who offers a package for that price? The lowest I could find on Comcast website it the Family Tier for $31/month, plus install...

linux_geek
Comcast does. You have to ask for basic local package. They don't advertise it, but have to provide it by law.
Dan

I don't think they promote that rate, you have to request it.

James
In the city of Redmond, the following applies to Comcast

All Grantee rates and charges shall be published (in the form of a publicly-available rate card), made available to the public, and shall be non-discriminatory as to all Persons of similar classes, under similar circumstances and conditions.

If your local government has a similar Franchise agreement with Comcast, you should be able to ask for a rate card at the local Comcast office.

Have you noticed that the Comcast website also stopped promoting "Enhanced Basic Cable"? The only packages that they promote anymore are all digital. They probably will continue to move analog channels to the digital tier making "Enhanced Basic Cable" less and less attractive to existing customers.

But yes you should be able to ask for and receive "Limited Basic Cable" for around $15/month depending on your location which will allow you to get the local HD broadcast channels as long as you have a QAM tuner.

I was watching KOMO news (OTA) yesterday afternoon and just before the end of the 5:00 pm broadcast, my Dish 622 receiver rebooted, came back to KOMO for about 5 seconds and then rebooted again. As soon as it completed the reboot the second time I flipped off the OTA channel through the sat HD broadcast that seemed dark, to the the SD broadcast and all seems fine.

Did anybody else experience a similar hiccup?

Folks,

I'd like to receive OTA HDTV in my basement, and would be grateful for your advice. What do you think my reception would be like - I am at the junction of NE 55th Street, and NE 45th Street, Seattle Zip 98105, with some town homes oppposite my house.

Is there an External anntenae you'd recommend for the job, and once that is up, which cables would I need to pass into the TV in the basement?

Thanks
Jack

Folks,

I'd like to receive OTA HDTV in my basement, and would be grateful for your advice. What do you think my reception would be like - I am at the junction of NE 55th Street, and NE 45th Street, Seattle Zip 98105, with some town homes oppposite my house.

Is there an External anntenae you'd recommend for the job, and once that is up, which cables would I need to pass into the TV in the basement?

Thanks
Jack

Jack
Depends on which location.
1. 45th Ave NE and 55th St NE, no sweat.
2. 45th St NE and 55th Ave NE, you're in trouble.
The 4221 is what I would use for location 1. There's only one cable from the antenna to the receiver or TV.
Dan

Thanks Dan.

Which sites are you guys using to get an idea of how good the reception is based on the location? I've found ttp://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx but it doesn't seem to have this info.

Which sites are you guys using to get an idea of how good the reception is based on the location?The best computerized TV reception service is www.tvfool.com. Click on "TV Signal Locator".

(DanKurts, best I know, uses his head.)

Great site - thank you!

The best computerized TV reception service is www.tvfool.com. Click on "TV Signal Locator".

(DanKurts, best I know, uses his head.)

Thanks Mike.
The main thing is a topo program that lets me plot on a map two points, the towers and the user, then see it in 3D and in a cross section. Combined with what I've learned in areas near the user, from installs, it gives a pretty good idea. But hey, even then I get fooled once in a while.
Most map programs I've tried are pretty thin on real world details. When I enter in addresses that I know are impossible, 99% of the time they say it will work. They usually have good general suggestions.
It's very hard to do it just from data. Just too many things that come in to play.
For the greater Puget Sound area, though, just drop us (quarque also has the program and can do a lookup) a note on the Forum and we'll help you out.

Dan

I recently dumped Comcrap due to poor customer service, but I'd love to be able to watch some prime time HD shows for free. I'm in Everett, is there an antenna that will pull in CSI:Miami for me on Mondays? :D

I tried plugging my TV into the wall, hoping they only disconnected the service in the system and not the physcial connection in the building, but no such luck. I only get public access ch. 77.

I recently dumped Comcrap due to poor customer service, but I'd love to be able to watch some prime time HD shows for free. I'm in Everett, is there an antenna that will pull in CSI:Miami for me on Mondays? :D

I tried plugging my TV into the wall, hoping they only disconnected the service in the system and not the physcial connection in the building, but no such luck. I only get public access ch. 77.

HTtom - Do you have any major obstructions to the south? If not, you should have no problem pulling in CBS from anywhere in Everett with a Channel Master 4221. As a bonus, you should be able to get most other local channels to, including many that carry HD content.

Welcome to the forum and have fun!

James

I guess I should have specified that I'm in an apartment and can't run an outdoor antenna. I could set one up inside my apartment right next to my patio door, but I can't have anything outside.

Looking south from my patio, I have a lovely view of my neighbors' patios. :rolleyes: I'm at the inside corner of a U-shaped building, facing east towards HWY 99/Evergreen Way.

Thanks for the speedy reply, BTW!

I guess I should have specified that I'm in an apartment and can't run an outdoor antenna. I could set one up inside my apartment right next to my patio door, but I can't have anything outside.

Looking south from my patio, I have a lovely view of my neighbors' patios. :rolleyes: I'm at the inside corner of a U-shaped building, facing east towards HWY 99/Evergreen Way.

Thanks for the speedy reply, BTW!

Bummer that you can't set an antenna outside on your deck. I thought the FCC had a rule that made it so landlords had to allow you to do so. Oh well.

You never know what stations you might get unless you try. If you don't want to spend money and wait for your antenna, you can build one and see what happens. Here's a couple of websites:

http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw&feature=related

If the antenna idea doesn't work - you could always go back to comcrap and ask for their limited basic package, which runs about $15 a month. If your TV has a QAM tuner, you may be able to pick up HD content that way.

James

Well.. it is technically allowed, but the details are long and boring. My lease states that any antenna must be properly secured, there's an additional deposit, etc. Also, I'd have to leave my patio door open enough for the cable, and it's pretty cold. I'll only be here about 6 months, so I'm looking for an indoor solution.

What indoor antenna is usually recommended for my situation?

Well.. it is technically allowed, but the details are long and boring. My lease states that any antenna must be properly secured, there's an additional deposit, etc. Also, I'd have to leave my patio door open enough for the cable, and it's pretty cold. I'll only be here about 6 months, so I'm looking for an indoor solution.

What indoor antenna is usually recommended for my situation?
Here's the FCC's take on your situation

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

It sounds like requiring a safe installation is OK. The "additional deposit" may not be legal if it is an "unreasonable expense". I'm not a lawyer. There are ways to work around the patio door/cable issue. Your call if you want to pursue any of this for a temporary situation. Of course if you are thinking of moving to another similar situation, it might be nice to figure it out in any event.

Well.. it is technically allowed, but the details are long and boring. My lease states that any antenna must be properly secured, there's an additional deposit, etc. Also, I'd have to leave my patio door open enough for the cable, and it's pretty cold. I'll only be here about 6 months, so I'm looking for an indoor solution.

What indoor antenna is usually recommended for my situation?

HTtom
Before you get too carried away, reception in all of Everett is NOT a slam dunk. What's your cross streets?
Dan

Hello. Am new here.

Need help in figuring out which outdoor antenna to purchase. Right now we have one of those cute Philips HDTV antenna on the roof. Reception is fantastic when it works but sometimes it pixelates to a point we turn off the TV because it is so bad. This happens rather often when it rains.

Our house is at the intersection of 161 NE Street and NE 24th Street in Sherwood Forest neighborhood Bellevue, Long -122.12509, Lat 47.63362, elevation 115 feet. We have huge, tall trees (Sherwood Forest!) surrounding us (fir trees that are 100 feet tall). We have clear sight south but trees to the southwest to the west and to the north.

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Natcire

Hello. Am new here.

Need help in figuring out which outdoor antenna to purchase. Right now we have one of those cute Philips HDTV antenna on the roof. Reception is fantastic when it works but sometimes it pixelates to a point we turn off the TV because it is so bad. This happens rather often when it rains.

Our house is at the intersection of 161 NE Street and NE 24th Street in Sherwood Forest neighborhood Bellevue, Long -122.12509, Lat 47.63362, elevation 115 feet. We have huge, tall trees (Sherwood Forest!) surrounding us (fir trees that are 100 feet tall). We have clear sight south but trees to the southwest to the west and to the north.

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Natcire

Natcire
The area is fussy. There's a fair amount of signal, but it gets blocked somewhat by all the trees. Rain gets the branches to moving and the signal gets chopped up further. I've used both yagi types and bow tie styles there. It's very hard to say which would work better. I have a ChannelMaster 4248 yagi about two blocks north of you, and another about 3 blocks east. 4221 types didn't do well. A few blocks south of you, a 4221 was the only thing that worked.
Wish I recommend one, but it's flip a coin time. It will also take some patience finding the right spot to get all the channels. The 4221 can be mounted in more places, like the side of a chimney or house, where the 4248 needs to be on a pole above a chimney or the roof. I believe Fry's has the 4221, not sure of their return or exchange policies if it doesn't work out.
Dan

HTtom
Before you get too carried away, reception in all of Everett is NOT a slam dunk. What's your cross streets?
Dan

I'm 4-5 blocks west of HWY 99 and 112th, not far from the new(ish) WalMart on HWY 99/Evergreen Way.

I'd like to not get carried away, I just want a cheap indoor antenna that works. :D

I'm 4-5 blocks west of HWY 99 and 112th, not far from the new(ish) WalMart on HWY 99/Evergreen Way.

I'd like to not get carried away, I just want a cheap indoor antenna that works. :D

HTtom
The area is okay, but does require an outdoor antenna. There's a small rise to the SW that makes signals a bit weak. Try an amplified type indoor antenna, keep it near a south or southwest window pointed in that direction. Indoor antennas vary a lot in performance, partly because of the location they're asked to work in. Be patient in setting it up. You may find it requires a different dial setting or slight direction change for each channel. Once you find it, though, you'll be out minimum bucks for a great picture.
Dan

I'm near the SnoKing county line around Hwy 99 and should be able to get all kinds of reception with an indoor antenna right? We get KIRO, KCTS, KCPQ, and KSTW alright, KING barely, and KOMO almost not at all.

Any thoughts on the best possible reception with either indoor or outdoor antennas? Thanks!

quarque
Finally got a Viore tuner. Loaded and started right up. Picked up a fair amount of channels with just the little antenna it came with. Tried the recording, worked good. Save a snap of TV, surprisingly small, only 91k. Must have a ton of compression dialed in. Some decent features. Haven't hooked it up to the outside antenna yet, should be interesting. Let ya know how it works out. Picture hardly stuttered, audio was rock solid. Seems to need a fair amount of memory for video, have to check that out. In any case, pretty slick little plug in. Didn't try the remote, but has all the buttons.
One thing on the scan. First time it didn't catch too many channels, so the second scan I did an Add Channel, reoriented the antenna to horizontal, picked up some more channels, but they didn't come reorder themselves. Not a big deal, probably in order if I did a fresh scan instead. I couldn't find any way to move the channels around so channel +/- would have them in order.
Minor thing. Video quality is decent. I'm not sure how good the video output is on my HP, but played through my hi rez CRT monitor it looked okay. Video controls a little wierd, but you can play the picture enough to make it look decent. Curious to see how it looks on my 50" Panasonic.
All in all, quite pleased with it. Small enough to take along with the laptop, recording part of app could be fun. Light years ahead of the Pinnacle tuner I returned.
Thanks again!
Dan

Did you get the VIORE model HDW-07V ? I just picked one up, but can't seem to get the serial number to be accepted on the PVR software install and now I can't get to the VIORE web site. I was just wondering ...

Did you get the VIORE model HDW-07V ? I just picked one up, but can't seem to get the serial number to be accepted on the PVR software install and now I can't get to the VIORE web site. I was just wondering ...

not sure what Dan got but that is the model I got. I had no trouble setting it up. Perhaps you are mistaking an "O" (OH) for a "0" (ZERO) in the serial number or vice versa.

not sure what Dan got but that is the model I got. I had no trouble setting it up. Perhaps you are mistaking an "O" (OH) for a "0" (ZERO) in the serial number or vice versa.

Perhaps, but I find it odd the web site won't respond after the big sale on these things. Was yours the USB version ?

Did you get the VIORE model HDW-07V ? I just picked one up, but can't seem to get the serial number to be accepted on the PVR software install and now I can't get to the VIORE web site. I was just wondering ...

Jim
Yes, same one quarque had. Did have the same trouble though. Forget what the fix was..... And I did try the O for the zero trick, didn't work. Some fubar procedure that wasn't in instructions as I recall.
Worked pretty good once I got it going. Haven't had time to play with it since. Try calling their tech support.
Dan

Perhaps, but I find it odd the web site won't respond after the big sale on these things. Was yours the USB version ?

Yes USB. Maybe the website server is jammed with people trying to get tech support!

Yes USB. Maybe the website server is jammed with people trying to get tech support!

Ah, I figured it out. Now is works, except for one issue. One HD channel, which I can receive fine on my regular HDTV set, says it is encrypted on the USB tuner. Anybody know why this would be ? All other channels receive fine.

Ah, I figured it out. Now is works, except for one issue. One HD channel, which I can receive fine on my regular HDTV set, says it is encrypted on the USB tuner. Anybody know why this would be ? All other channels receive fine.

What channel is it?

Ah, I figured it out. Now is works, except for one issue. One HD channel, which I can receive fine on my regular HDTV set, says it is encrypted on the USB tuner. Anybody know why this would be ? All other channels receive fine.
What was the secret? Which channel is encrypted?

The EyeTV 500 tuner I used with my Mac computer died and I came across a reference to the HDHomeRun (http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/products/hdhomerun) networked dual tuner device. It uses an ethernet connection and there is compatible software available for Windows, Macintosh and Linux computers. It was pretty easy to set up and works well with the EyeTV software. I also tried it with MythTV on one of my Linux boxes and was able to get it to work but MythTV itself is a bit flakey. The sensitivity seems to be as good as the tuners on my television set and Directv HR20 DVR.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20071121.NYW048&show_article=1

Looks like KIRO has finally acquired actual programming for KIRO-SD (7-2/117).

I stumbled upon a rumour that KCPQ's about to launch a subchanel, as well:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=636476&postcount=432

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20071121.NYW048&show_article=1

Looks like KIRO has finally acquired actual programming for KIRO-SD (7-2/117).

I stumbled upon a rumour that KCPQ's about to launch a subchanel, as well:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=636476&postcount=432

Good info in the first link, but the second link doesn't seem to work.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20071121.NYW048&show_article=1

Looks like KIRO has finally acquired actual programming for KIRO-SD (7-2/117).



oh goody. now we'll have a good reason for crappy sports HD video on ch 7 instead of blaming a useless shot of the airport for it. I feel much better...

HTtom
The area is okay, but does require an outdoor antenna. There's a small rise to the SW that makes signals a bit weak. Try an amplified type indoor antenna, keep it near a south or southwest window pointed in that direction.
Dan,

Thanks again for the reply. Both windows I have are facing directly east, S/SW isn't an option.

Forgive my noobness :D, but will I need to buy a tuner? My PDP has a built in NTSC tuner.

Dan,

Thanks again for the reply. Both windows I have are facing directly east, S/SW isn't an option.

Forgive my noobness :D, but will I need to buy a tuner? My PDP has a built in NTSC tuner.

HTtom
If you only have an NTSC tuner, then you'll need a HD tuner.
BUT, you said you didn't want to get carried away, and you have east facing windows, you might want to rethink all this (read tuner costs, indoor antenna experiments that will be next to useless for you....). If this is only a short term thing, you could just tough it out with with basic cable for $13/mo. You'll get all your local channels okay, just not in HD. No major expense, no hair loss.....
Dan

Well, you probably don't track everyone's posts :D, but the reason I'm looking for OTA is because I dropped Comcast. I'm only looking for an HD signal. If I can't get that, I'll just stick my HD/BluRay discs for now.

The thing is I won't get Comcast again in my new place (North Seattle) next summer, so if I can get a deal on a Samsung DTB-H260F Tuner, I wouldn't be throwing that money away.

...so if I can get a deal on a Samsung DTB-H260F Tuner, I wouldn't be throwing that money away.

Wait until the new year. I predict the price of a used (maybe even new) 260 will drop with the introduction of the coupon boxes (ATSC tuner boxes for those who rely on terrestrial broadcasts only). You will still want the 260 (or equivalent) though, since the coupon boxes will not have a HD output. My reasoning is that demand will drop for the 260 since lots of people who buy it have no need for HD outs, and will opt for the less expensive box.

James

If your new apartment doesn't come with Comcast, it may come with MDM (Millennium Digital Media) now called Broadstripe. I believe you can use a QAM tuner with limited basic cable and get most of the local digital channels you get with Comcast excluding KING (NBC), KONG and KSTW (The CW). There is a separate Forum for that

AVS Forum->HDTV->Local HDTV Info and Reception->Seattle, WA - Millennium

Well, you probably don't track everyone's posts :D, but the reason I'm looking for OTA is because I dropped Comcast. I'm only looking for an HD signal. If I can't get that, I'll just stick my HD/BluRay discs for now.

The thing is I won't get Comcast again in my new place (North Seattle) next summer, so if I can get a deal on a Samsung DTB-H260F Tuner, I wouldn't be throwing that money away.

HT tom,

I went and did my own checking through google earth in that area and according to it looks like your in a good spot. I would be willing to come up in the next week and test it out. I have a atsc tuner for my laptop. No charge for the test. Let me know.

Mike

Wanted to get input on OTA antenna (HD) for Shoreline. Intersection of N 203rd and Densmore Ave N. I am in a bit of a hole, just on the back side of the Aurora Village Home Depot. Would a Channel Master 4221 work and would I need to put it on a mast? The house on the next lot south of me is about 8 ft higher (my and their house are both ramblers) and about 30 ft away. I'd prefer a garage attic placement if that's workable. Also, do any antenna installation contractors work in this area?

Wanted to get input on OTA antenna (HD) for Shoreline. Intersection of N 203rd and Densmore Ave N. I am in a bit of a hole, just on the back side of the Aurora Village Home Depot. Would a Channel Master 4221 work and would I need to put it on a mast? The house on the next lot south of me is about 8 ft higher (my and their house are both ramblers) and about 30 ft away. I'd prefer a garage attic placement if that's workable. Also, do any antenna installation contractors work in this area?



98133
It's a bad spot. I did a survey years ago a few blocks north, a better spot in theory, and it was ugly. That hill, about a 100ft higher than you plus the trees that go on and on, really chops up the signal. Never hurts to try, just don't hold your breath!
Dan

Well, you probably don't track everyone's posts :D, but the reason I'm looking for OTA is because I dropped Comcast. I'm only looking for an HD signal. If I can't get that, I'll just stick my HD/BluRay discs for now.

The thing is I won't get Comcast again in my new place (North Seattle) next summer, so if I can get a deal on a Samsung DTB-H260F Tuner, I wouldn't be throwing that money away.

HTtom
Great idea. The 260 is a fantastic tuner, and if anything will pull in a signal, that's it. Should work great at your new location, assuming it's in a good spot.
If you want that checked out, give me the cross streets.
Dan

Wanted to get input on OTA antenna (HD) for Shoreline. Intersection of N 203rd and Densmore Ave N. I am in a bit of a hole, just on the back side of the Aurora Village Home Depot. Would a Channel Master 4221 work and would I need to put it on a mast? The house on the next lot south of me is about 8 ft higher (my and their house are both ramblers) and about 30 ft away. I'd prefer a garage attic placement if that's workable. Also, do any antenna installation contractors work in this area?

I live pretty close to you, and on the same-named street. I've had excellent results using a good old UHF-VHF antenna from Radio Shack, mounted on the chimney with a rotator. Just remember that if you plan on feeding several TV's in the home, use a very high quality passive splitter with a bandwidth out to 2Ghz if possible.

I am able to watch DTV Over The Air for all stations, (except KCPQ), in spite of my home being down in a bit of a valley.

I live pretty close to you, and on the same-named street. I've had excellent results using a good old UHF-VHF antenna from Radio Shack, mounted on the chimney with a rotator. Just remember that if you plan on feeding several TV's in the home, use a very high quality passive splitter with a bandwidth out to 2Ghz if possible.

I am able to watch DTV Over The Air for all stations, (except KCPQ), in spite of my home being down in a bit of a valley.

Do we really need 2GHz for OTA? Doesn't the standard 900MHz cover it all? What does it buy us? Thanks.

Do we really need 2GHz for OTA? Doesn't the standard 900MHz cover it all? What does it buy us? Thanks.

Even though a splitter may be good out to 1Ghz, chances are the frequency roll-off begins much sooner than that. A splitter that is good out to 2Ghz has less loss, and flatter response across the UHF broadcast band, including the upper UHF channels. A flat response is critical with ATSC DTV reception, just as much as a flat response is critical on the transmit side. Use good RG6 (not Radio Shack) cable from Beldin or West Penn is always a help too. Radio Shack's antennas are great, their coax is not well shielded.

In my installation at home, I have a 2-way spilt right off the antenna, to a 4- way spilt at the other end of my house on the end of about 120' of RG6. The two DTV sets after the 4 way split did not get a very reliable signal on many stations. After replacing the 1Ghz splitters with 2Ghz splitters, every set locks onto each channel equally, (again with the exception of KCPQ, that is a terrain problem).

Kelly,

Did you see my private message to you regarding the mono audio for KOMO (SD) via DirecTV?

Kelly,

Did you see my private message to you regarding the mono audio for KOMO (SD) via DirecTV?

Hi Budget HT, No I didn't have any recent messages from you sorry.

KOMO TV4 has received a few complaints about Dish Network's feed of KOMO, (and others), since they take our HD and NTSC feeds via OTA.

Unfortunately, none of the local stations have control over cable or satellite feeds from subscriber services. I for one have attempted to contact someone on the technical side at Dish, to pass along viewer complaints about video and audio issues, but can't seem to reach anyone with the technical expertise.

Kelly,

I realize DirecTV takes your OTA NTSC signal (I can see some minor multipath artifacts, a.k.a., ghosts), but I was under the impression that the receiver at the DirecTV POP was provided by and the responsibility of the local station. I guess I was wrong.

In my case, I am talking DirecTV KOMO NTSC (channel SE4 on the DirecTV satellite receivers), not Dish.

I do get normal stereo audio from your NTSC Comcast cable signal, and from your OTA transmissions (your OTA is not watchable at my house, but I have checked elsewhere).

I will start my way through DirecTV and see if I can get anyone's attention. A few years back I did finally reach someone there in engineering when the KCTS NTSC channel could not even maintain sync it was so bad. KSTW was deteriorating at the same time. Apparently, at that time, some building under construction was gradually blocking the path between the DirecTV POP receivers and the Capital Hill towers, at least that's what I heard from the folks at KCTS.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll post here if I have any luck.

Hi Budget HT, No I didn't have any recent messages from you sorry.

KOMO TV4 has received a few complaints about Dish Network's feed of KOMO, (and others), since they take our HD and NTSC feeds via OTA.

Unfortunately, none of the local stations have control over cable or satellite feeds from subscriber services. I for one have attempted to contact someone on the technical side at Dish, to pass along viewer complaints about video and audio issues, but can't seem to reach anyone with the technical expertise.

A few posts over at dbstalk.com say that dishquality@dishnetwork.com can be used for complaints about local and national channel signal quality.

Whoops, I see now you were talking originally about Direct TV. Dish takes KOMO TV4 OTA, (where we get the majority of complaints), but Direct TV somehow takes the same SD feed as Comcast via fiber from Fisher Plaza, (which is owned and maintained by Comcast). That particular SD feed is via a Digital Distribution Amplifier at KOMO, to Comcast' encoder, and somehow gets to Direct TV as well, with an OTA backup at their local office. KOMO does not have control over the signal once it leaves the DDA, and enters the Comcast fiber encoder. Since we've received no SD complaints from Comcast viewers, one could surmise that DirectTV may be on their backup OTA method of reception for KOMO TV4.

Just as a point of information, all the cable and satellite companies here in the Seattle area mainly rely on OTA for their DTV/HD local stations.

Kelly,

This afternoon, I did finally reach a technical support person located in Oregon who took my report. I may have mislead him with the OTA information. But, the symptoms remain the same. The audio on DirecTV channel SE4 (your NTSC channel) is somewhat distorted and is mono as heard. I have compared it to the Comcast cable version which is definitely stereo.

Whatever the case, they have a problem that needs fixing. I mentioned your first name as an engineer at KOMO who is aware of the problem.

FYI, the fellow I was transferred to at DirecTV said he was in Oregon. He did not explain his area of responsibility, but did sound interested in taking the report and passing it on. The CSR I first spoke with (in technical support, but she was clearly not technically trained) tried to "handle" me with the standard scripts, until I insisted on talking to a supervisor.

I live pretty close to you, and on the same-named street. I've had excellent results using a good old UHF-VHF antenna from Radio Shack, mounted on the chimney with a rotator. Just remember that if you plan on feeding several TV's in the home, use a very high quality passive splitter with a bandwidth out to 2Ghz if possible.

I am able to watch DTV Over The Air for all stations, (except KCPQ), in spite of my home being down in a bit of a valley.

Kelly From KOMO
What are you using for tuners? Do you need to tweak the rotor or does the antena have enough give to leave it alone?
You're spot on about the splitters, and there's more. The brand can make can make a difference, and it's very possible to have an oddball that will give you funny results. The RatShack ones are usually okay. The Monster overpriced ones can have wierd results. If in doubt with a marginal setup, swapout the splitter.
Dan

Kelly From KOMO
What are you using for tuners? Do you need to tweak the rotor or does the antena have enough give to leave it alone?
You're spot on about the splitters, and there's more. The brand can make can make a difference, and it's very possible to have an oddball that will give you funny results. The RatShack ones are usually okay. The Monster overpriced ones can have wierd results. If in doubt with a marginal setup, swapout the splitter.
Dan

Hi Dan,

I have three DTV sets in the house, one Visio 42" LCD, one Visio 50" plasma, and a Panasonic 50" plasma. I've found the Visio's to have the better tuner in comparison actually! To be fair, the Panasonic has the superior picture.

All my local OTA is via the RS antenna mounted on a 5' mast and rotor atop my chimney. "Cable" channels are via Direct TV. I have two CATV modulators that send DVD, or the RGB output from my downstairs PC though the house too, so I can watch streamed programming or a DVD on any set in the house. I'd like to have one ATSC modulator so I can send HD around, but with the encoding and aspect ratio conversion it gets expensive.

I purchased my 2Ghz splitters at Best Buy. I can't recall the brand, but they seem to work quite well.

The antenna rotor has not moved the rotor in a long time. To get KVOS-DT, I need to swing the antenna NW, but since they don't have any programming that I consider interesting, there is no need to move the antenna. I've tried to use the rotor to see KCPQ, but there are too many hills and distance between my home and Gold Mt.

Hi Dan,

I have three DTV sets in the house, one Visio 42" LCD, one Visio 50" plasma, and a Panasonic 50" plasma. I've found the Visio's to have the better tuner in comparison actually! To be fair, the Panasonic has the superior picture.

All my local OTA is via the RS antenna mounted on a 5' mast and rotor atop my chimney. "Cable" channels are via Direct TV. I have two CATV modulators that send DVD, or the RGB output from my downstairs PC though the house too, so I can watch streamed programming or a DVD on any set in the house. I'd like to have one ATSC modulator so I can send HD around, but with the encoding and aspect ratio conversion it gets expensive.

I purchased my 2Ghz splitters at Best Buy. I can't recall the brand, but they seem to work quite well.

The antenna rotor has not moved the rotor in a long time. To get KVOS-DT, I need to swing the antenna NW, but since they don't have any programming that I consider interesting, there is no need to move the antenna. I've tried to use the rotor to see KCPQ, but there are too many hills and distance between my home and Gold Mt.


Kelly From KOMO
I'm not surprised about the Visio's. The chips for all the newer tuners are getting better and cheaper. Customer has a small LCD in his bedroom, a Polaroid of all things, and it gets great reception with some ugly signals. Go figure.
You are obviously in a sweet spot. Don't move anything!
Distributing HD via RF can get spendy. Cheaper to use component into amp/splitter, then cat5/converters on each end. Saw some at Elan training a while ago. I was very skeptical, but looked great over 300ft away. They had the test equipment to prove it, too.
Why not get HD13 from the satellite?
Dan

Has anyone around here ever been able to pick up CBUT digital (Physical channel 58, virtual channel 2.1)? It transmits at 1000kw, from Victoria I think.

James

Has anyone around here ever been able to pick up CBUT digital (Physical channel 58, virtual channel 2.1)? It transmits at 1000kw, from Victoria I think.

James
I haven't been able to receive that but I have a question. In the US after February 2009, all US TV stations have to stop transmitting on channels 52 through 69. What happens to digital CBUT channel 58? Does Canada or Mexico have the same restriction?

Has anyone around here ever been able to pick up CBUT digital (Physical channel 58, virtual channel 2.1)? It transmits at 1000kw, from Victoria I think.

James

They're only at 30.5kW from Mt. Seymour (north of Vancouver). digitalhome.ca's forums have some reports of solid reception from Whatcom County. The only other DT in BC is CIVT, with all of 900W on 33.