Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 25

quarque

12-10-07, 10:12 PM

Hello there. This is my first post so if I am posting in the wrong area please advise. First off I am a complete Digital television neophyte! I just bought a new Sony Bravia yesterday and am looking for some HD content to feed it. I have been researching OTA Digital television signals and am interested in adding an Antenna to attempt to get some of the Seattle/Tacoma content. I live on Camano Island and aside from some trees have a fairly good path to the south. Can anyone make any recommendations as to equipment to get started and perhaps what to expect as far as local channel reception in my area? I will list my location details below.
Latitude: 48.0817
Longitude: -122.2707
Magnetic declination: 17.32

Thanks in advance. :)

Well you may have read your GPS wrong cuz those coord are not on Camano (few miles east). Post your nearest cross streets if you want a line-of-sight check. If you are on the south end of Camano you should not have any big problems. You are about 30 miles from QA hill and 40+ from Gold Mt. This is approaching the limit of the popular bowties like Channel Master CM4221, but it still might work. A cheap antenna to try for experiments is the Radio Shack 15-2160. It is easy to return if it does not quite cut it. But just about any good UHF unit will pick up something. The accepted antenna location mantra is: outside better than inside, higher better than lower, bigger better than smaller. Other than that it is a crap shoot every time...

quarque

12-10-07, 10:16 PM

Hey all,

I am happily set up with HD OTA. Now I'd like to get a 2nd hdtv for another room. My question - can I split the signal from 1 hd antenna and run it to the second hd ready tv?

If so, is there a special splitter I need to get?

thank you for any help!

Bill

Nothing special - just go to Radio Shack and get the best they have with the highest frequency limit. Use good coax (at least RG6). If your runs are long (over 75 feet) you may need an amp, but that is a last resort.

DanKurts

12-13-07, 01:32 AM

Hello there. This is my first post so if I am posting in the wrong area please advise. First off I am a complete Digital television neophyte! I just bought a new Sony Bravia yesterday and am looking for some HD content to feed it. I have been researching OTA Digital television signals and am interested in adding an Antenna to attempt to get some of the Seattle/Tacoma content. I live on Camano Island and aside from some trees have a fairly good path to the south. Can anyone make any recommendations as to equipment to get started and perhaps what to expect as far as local channel reception in my area? I will list my location details below.
Latitude: 48.0817
Longitude: -122.2707
Magnetic declination: 17.32

Thanks in advance. :)

Camano_kid
I'm doing a big install just north of Camano State Park looking SW, on the water. Signals pretty good, but very weak. Your cross streets will make a huge difference.
Lots of heavy stands of trees there. Let us know.
Also, for giggles, was not able to get any signals from Victoria or Vancouver. Went on the hilltop, where Smith road crosses Hwy 532, still got nothing.
Dan

Camano_kid

12-13-07, 10:48 PM

Those coordinates aren't from a GPS. I got them from a website. My cross Streets are Edgewood Drive and Mountain View. I have a stand of trees along the south side of Mountain view to contend with. I was considering something along the lines of the Antenna's Direct DB8 or similar.

Well you may have read your GPS wrong cuz those coord are not on Camano (few miles east). Post your nearest cross streets if you want a line-of-sight check. If you are on the south end of Camano you should not have any big problems. You are about 30 miles from QA hill and 40+ from Gold Mt. This is approaching the limit of the popular bowties like Channel Master CM4221, but it still might work. A cheap antenna to try for experiments is the Radio Shack 15-2160. It is easy to return if it does not quite cut it. But just about any good UHF unit will pick up something. The accepted antenna location mantra is: outside better than inside, higher better than lower, bigger better than smaller. Other than that it is a crap shoot every time...

DanKurts

12-14-07, 04:05 AM

Those coordinates aren't from a GPS. I got them from a website. My cross Streets are Edgewood Drive and Mountain View. I have a stand of trees along the south side of Mountain view to contend with. I was considering something along the lines of the Antenna's Direct DB8 or similar.

Camano
You're about 35 miles to the towers. The hill has a slight rise on the signal path, and about a 1/4 mile of trees before you get line of sight.
It's hard to say which would work better. The DB8 or 4228 style might not work well in the trees. A yagi style usually does better, like the 4248, and you'll probably need a preamp. Try the antenna first, and if needed, a 7775 preamp. Height won't help much, as long as you're above the roof. The trees are the big problem. Location will be important. Trial and error will win the day.
Dan

Camano_kid

12-14-07, 12:48 PM

Camano
You're about 35 miles to the towers. The hill has a slight rise on the signal path, and about a 1/4 mile of trees before you get line of sight.
It's hard to say which would work better. The DB8 or 4228 style might not work well in the trees. A yagi style usually does better, like the 4248, and you'll probably need a preamp. Try the antenna first, and if needed, a 7775 preamp. Height won't help much, as long as you're above the roof. The trees are the big problem. Location will be important. Trial and error will win the day.
Dan

Thanks for the response!

Is the Yagi Style just more directional? I was just looking for the most powerful type I could find. That was why I was looking at the DB8 and others rated for longer distances? I was also looking the Big SDV7700K/17 Philips antenna At Lowes as well.

paulrenec

12-16-07, 12:31 PM

mike84

12-16-07, 05:11 PM

finally here's what my tuner is showing for digital tv
Location 25th & South G Street Tacoma,WA apartment complex
Signal Strength Signal Quality Channel

60% 50% KOMO
50% 49% KING
45% 65% KIRO
65% 70% KCTS
80% 71% KSTW
45% 70% KONG
40% 59% KBTC
80% 77% KHCV
68% 75% KWDK
69% 80% KWPX
56% 68% KMYQ

Getting all of these channels with sub channels without dropouts except for KBTC. Also does anyone know of a good antenna. I have a 100 feet of hill between me and KCPQ & KTBW. Can't put anything outsude. Thanks in advance for the help folks.

Mike

Hope everyone has very happy holidays

quarque

12-16-07, 09:43 PM

mike84 - KCPQ is NW of you 22 miles and the hills do not look that bad because their tower is very high up on Gold Mtn. Indoor antennas are tough to judge because their performance is all over the map. The Zenith Silver Sensor is usually a good bet. It is also sold under other names I believe. The Terk HDTVa unit is a similar design, but I'm not sure how good it is. Try to stay away from amplified or exotic designs. Radio Shack used to sell a very nice double-bowtie unit but that has disappeared. You may just have to try several and return those that don't work for you. You can also use "outdoor" bowtie designs which are small with a vertical profile. These can sit on a window sill facing the towers. These include the Channel Master 4221 and the Antennas Direct DB2.

quarque

12-16-07, 09:51 PM

I have a problem with the remote controller. I cannot get it to work or even to turn it on... :confused:I know it sound stupid but I have found no documentation on any web site or part of the cd. the tuner works well,

Check the battery voltage - should be at least 2.5 VDC to work. Check the battery orientation ("+" side goes towards the back of the remote). The range is poor so make sure you are aiming at the window on the main unit.

DanKurts

12-17-07, 02:53 AM

Thanks for the response!

Is the Yagi Style just more directional? I was just looking for the most powerful type I could find. That was why I was looking at the DB8 and others rated for longer distances? I was also looking the Big SDV7700K/17 Philips antenna At Lowes as well.

Camano_kid
Antenna "power" is kind of deceiving. You do want signal gain, but not gain of every signal floating around. The numbers you read for gain are also kind of misleading, very hard to compare one with another. Antennas like the DB8 pickup signal from a wide "view". Yagi's have a very narrow look.
This is a simplified explanation.
If you can imagine looking at indirect sunlight coming through dense forest, you may not see the Sun, but do see many rays. If your antenna can see many rays, but not direct Sun, it's hard for the tuner to lock on to the main or strongest signal. Now imagine looking through a 4ft long, 2" tube at the same sunlight or rays. You may not see the direct Sun, but you also only see one or maybe two rays. Keeps the confusion down for the tuner, and it can lock on easier.

The front part of that Phillips antenna is a yagi, but a very small one. The back part is for VHF, which isn't needed. The Channel Master 4248
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4248&xzoom=Large#xview
is what I found to work very well. Apparently the idiots at Channel Master have stopped putting this on their website. They claim the 3023 is the same thing. Wrong, balun-breath! Those funny diamond shape bits on the main boom really do make a difference in reception. They don't do much of anything for gain, but they flatten out the signal, which is a very good thing.
If you want to try one, that's what you need. I would also use a 7775 preamp
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC7775&xzoom=Large#xview
You're far enough out to need it.
If you decide to try the 4228, still use the 7775.
Dan

Whidbey

12-17-07, 11:46 AM

If you decide to try the 4228, still use the 7775.
Dan

Question - Why recommend the 7775 and not 7777? It amplifies VHF as well, and aren't some of the digital channels moving to high VHF channels when the switch is thrown in 2009? Or does it matter?
FWIW, and sorta changing subjects, I get a pretty clean analog signal from CBC using a 4228 and 7777 combo. I've never picked up digital CBC, but AKAIK there is no guarantee that CBC analog will shut down in 2009.

James

Camano_kid

12-17-07, 01:14 PM

Camano_kid
Antenna "power" is kind of deceiving. You do want signal gain, but not gain of every signal floating around. The numbers you read for gain are also kind of misleading, very hard to compare one with another. Antennas like the DB8 pickup signal from a wide "view". Yagi's have a very narrow look.
This is a simplified explanation.
If you can imagine looking at indirect sunlight coming through dense forest, you may not see the Sun, but do see many rays. If your antenna can see many rays, but not direct Sun, it's hard for the tuner to lock on to the main or strongest signal. Now imagine looking through a 4ft long, 2" tube at the same sunlight or rays. You may not see the direct Sun, but you also only see one or maybe two rays. Keeps the confusion down for the tuner, and it can lock on easier.

The front part of that Phillips antenna is a yagi, but a very small one. The back part is for VHF, which isn't needed. The Channel Master 4248
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4248&xzoom=Large#xview
is what I found to work very well. Apparently the idiots at Channel Master have stopped putting this on their website. They claim the 3023 is the same thing. Wrong, balun-breath! Those funny diamond shape bits on the main boom really do make a difference in reception. They don't do much of anything for gain, but they flatten out the signal, which is a very good thing.
If you want to try one, that's what you need. I would also use a 7775 preamp
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC7775&xzoom=Large#xview
You're far enough out to need it.
If you decide to try the 4228, still use the 7775.
Dan

Thanks for the responses! I think I got it now, the Yagi style antenna filters out the stuff I don't want better than the bow tie's. The Link you posted for the 4248 said it was no longer available.I will look around at some other places. I also started looking at the Terrestrial Digital Extreme Gain Series as well. In Particular the 91XG (http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/91XG.html) and 43XG (http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/43XG.html) have you heard anything good or bad about these? I think due to my range I am pre-disposed to a pre-amp. Thanks again!

DanKurts

12-18-07, 12:41 AM

Thanks for the responses! I think I got it now, the Yagi style antenna filters out the stuff I don't want better than the bow tie's. The Link you posted for the 4248 said it was no longer available.I will look around at some other places. I also started looking at the Terrestrial Digital Extreme Gain Series as well. In Particular the 91XG (http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/91XG.html) and 43XG (http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/43XG.html) have you heard anything good or bad about these? I think due to my range I am pre-disposed to a pre-amp. Thanks again!

Camano_kid
Yeah, I noticed they were discontinued after I sent this. Typical. Channel Master did the same thing when the demand for ch13 circular polarized antenna's went down 20 years ago. Sadly, it's the only way you can get ch13 analog clear. A regular yagi or VHF antenna won't work cleanly. Doesn't matter now with HD.
Sokay.
A good 2nd choice would be the Antennacraft MXU59.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display_print.asp?PROD=MXU59
I've tried most everything out there at one time or another.
The XG antennas, or similar style antennas, are not as good, and have very cheesy construction. I dragged one of their big boys around 6 or 7 years ago, compared it to the other antennas I was using, no sale. My meters can read what they're really doing for reception. The 4248 or the MXU59 worked better, around here, when I needed a yagi. Gain is not the holy grail. Needed, yes, but also a flat signal when viewed on an analyzer meter. This the major difference between brands that can't really be measured and put down as specs. There is no standard test for this.
Also, a 7777 amp is okay, but you have to be careful with what you're using for antennas and the overall install. You can easily overload your tuner with too much noise from a strong VHF signal, and there's plenty of that around here. One of the reasons these preamps are so good is they have huge headroom, up to about 56db or so. What that means is if you have just one strong VHF signal, it can crank out so much clean signal, it will drive the tuners AGC, or gain control, way down. That will then cause the weaker UHF signals to be so far down, you won't lock on. I know, one shouldn't bother the other. Real world, it still does, and in other ways, too.
Bottom line, as long as you don't need the VHF portion now, just put a terminator on the VHF input, then take the cover off and put the switch in separate mode, and only use the UHF input. You can always turn it on later when you have an actual VHF HD signal to work with. Good thing is the two preamps are the same price.
Also, if you still want to try a bow tie style like the 4228, use a 4221 instead. I know it's smaller, one half of a 4228, but it works better, specially in the trees. And still use a preamp.
If you still haven't got around to all this, I'll be back up there in a month or two, finishing up my install on a new house, right next to Camano Park. Be there for at least a week, so if you want a survey done, or need help, call me. If nothing else, we can swap lies over at the Elger Bay cafe. Love their monster rueben sandwiches !
Dan
206-794-3993

Whidbey

12-19-07, 03:04 PM

I'm planning on raising my antenna in order to clear my neighbors rooftop and get a better signal. I've done a simple test - held the antenna up as high as I could - and did get stronger signals, so I think a higher set-up is in order.
I'd like to get my antenna approximately 10' above the peak of my roof. I plan on using a tripod mount. I have a rotator to deal with as well. Though I've seen it done, I don't like the idea of putting my rotator near the top of the mast, since I think that the mass of the rotator and 4228 antenna might be too much for the mast. I want to keep movement within reason during winds.
In order to get my rotator near the bottom of my mini tower, I'd like to employ a bearing, like the one shown here: http://www.oz1bxm.dk/sat/rotator-mast-and-support-bearing_big.jpg

I know I could order one, but is it possible to make one with off the shelf parts from a local hardware store?

quarque

12-19-07, 11:49 PM

Whidbey - yes it looks very possible with hardware store parts. The hard part is finding a clamp device that has a large and small hole so you can make a bearing sleeve in the big end. A short length of plastic pipe would make a good sleeve. Fasten it to the pipe with a sheet metal screw if it is not easy to clamp it in the big hole (i.e. let the clamp slide on the sleeve instead of the clamp+sleeve slide on the pipe). But it is best to use clamps for everything so as to not have holes in the pipe that will lead to rust and failure later on. Hose clamps should work for some of it.

Alternatively, you could have a clamp with two large holes and build up one side with plastic/metal "sleeves" so it clamps tight while the other end is loose.

Maybe places that sell rotators have this type of clamp hardware too. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Joe Hendrix

12-21-07, 05:34 PM

What happened to KIRO adding programming to 7.2? I thought that this was just right around the corner.

Anyone have any idea if KMYQ is going to do anything with their sub-channel?

I did notice that PBS is now broadcasting their news hour in a 16x9 format. Not sure if it's HD, but it's better than the 4x3.

zyland

12-21-07, 10:26 PM

Whidbey

12-22-07, 05:20 PM

FYI - In case there are others here who sometimes watch the analog Canadian stations.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/oca-bc.nsf/en/h_ca02319e.html

CONSUMER NOTICE

After August 31, 2011, all analog televisions will require a converter box in order to receive Canadian over-the-air broadcasts using an antenna. At that time, all over-the-air broadcast signals in Canada will be in digital-only format. Canadians using satellite or cable services should see no change.

U.S. television stations broadcasting over-the-air into Canada will make this change sooner, in February, 2009.

pinao

12-22-07, 11:14 PM

DanKurts

12-24-07, 02:42 AM

howdy folks... this site has quite the wealth of info! before diving in and buying all the goodies, i'm wondering how my OTA reception will be, at NW 45th St. & Baker Ave. NW in fremont. it's on a slope in kind of a slight depression from QA hill. thanks!

pinao
The location should be okay for ch's 4-5-7-13-16. Ch's 9-11-22 could be tough. Just be sure to get a good location for the antenna with as clear a view as possible from the SE to SW. The edge of the hill to the SE is going to be the tough part to overcome. Signal is very strong there, so it splatters off everything. A 4221 would be perfect. NO amplifiers needed! Patience will win out. Just point it due south initially, and you should be fine. Direction left or right won't be real critical, maybe 30 degrees either way. Finding a location that minimizes the hill, and all its inherent obstructions, is going to be the key.
Merry Happy !
Dan

JawKnee

12-24-07, 03:24 PM

Whidbey

12-24-07, 05:30 PM

Maybe places that sell rotators have this type of clamp hardware too. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Thanks Quarque. I made a little DIY support for the rotating mast, which should work for the short term. The link below contains pictures of how it goes together. I can add some shims if the distance between the two masts must be increased.
http://www.mailbigfile.com/867041777ac0daa9deff44b3c2463598/listFiles.php
Once it's set up on the mast, I'll probably add a couple of hose clamps over the whole thing, just for insurance.

pinao

12-24-07, 08:05 PM

pinao
The location should be okay for ch's 4-5-7-13-16. Ch's 9-11-22 could be tough. Just be sure to get a good location for the antenna with as clear a view as possible from the SE to SW. The edge of the hill to the SE is going to be the tough part to overcome. Signal is very strong there, so it splatters off everything. A 4221 would be perfect. NO amplifiers needed! Patience will win out. Just point it due south initially, and you should be fine. Direction left or right won't be real critical, maybe 30 degrees either way. Finding a location that minimizes the hill, and all its inherent obstructions, is going to be the key.
Merry Happy !
Dan

thanks dan! i think i can get a 4221 in an upstairs closet, as we have no attic & no real good place to put one at the front of the house which is south facing. will let ya know how it works out.

quarque

12-24-07, 09:53 PM

Thanks Quarque. I made a little DIY support for the rotating mast, which should work for the short term. The link below contains pictures of how it goes together. I can add some shims if the distance between the two masts must be increased.
http://www.mailbigfile.com/867041777ac0daa9deff44b3c2463598/listFiles.php
Once it's set up on the mast, I'll probably add a couple of hose clamps over the whole thing, just for insurance.

I like the plastic wire ties! A tech where I work uses them for EVERYTHING. But they are not as sturdy as one might think, especially outside (cold + UV leads to eventual failure). But for a temporary setup they will work. Hose clamps are stronger but it looks like it might be difficult to apply them. There is also other strapping hardware available but I'm not sure it would be any better/easier than hose clamps. You might throw a "safety chain" around the whole mess so the next big wind storm doesn't send the whole thing flying down the street if the wire ties break.

Which reminds me of a childhood story about safety chains. A drunken teenager lost control of his car and boat trailer near our house in the country. When we arrived the car was on the road but the boat and trailer were in the ditch (boat not on the trailer) 100 feet in front. Our first question was about safety chains. The slurred reply was "uhhh, what are safety chains?".

DanKurts

12-26-07, 03:39 AM

I recently moved my Comcast/Motorola STB downstairs for use with the new plasma, so instead of renting another STB, I want to try to get HD OTA on the other HDTV upstairs.

I went to Radio Shack and picked up 2 antennas, but I don't think either is working. Perhaps, I don't have either setup correctly?

In any event, I picked up the 15-1892 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034&cp) and the 15-1868 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062081).

Below is the info from TV Fool (zip of 98059):

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r71/JawKnee37/Radar-Digital.png

Should either one of the antennas that I bought work for me? Thanks and Happy Holidays!

JawKnee
To see where you are, just post the nearest cross streets. Far easier to see what you need.
The channel numbers you're getting seem like the ones I get when my tuner is set for Cable rather than Air. It shouldn't be getting anything that way, but then...... Check the setting and do a rescan.
Dan

JawKnee

12-26-07, 11:57 AM

JawKnee
To see where you are, just post the nearest cross streets. Far easier to see what you need.
The channel numbers you're getting seem like the ones I get when my tuner is set for Cable rather than Air. It shouldn't be getting anything that way, but then...... Check the setting and do a rescan.
Dan

Dan, thanks for the help!

Nearest cross streets are SE 88th Way and 137th Ave SE.

DanKurts

12-26-07, 11:31 PM

Dan, thanks for the help!

Nearest cross streets are SE 88th Way and 137th Ave SE.

JawKnee
It's a decent location. The hill in the distance to the NW might be a small problem. More likely all the trees around it. They could be in the way just enough to make things interesting. Be sure to try several locations around the house if one is a little fussy.
A 4221 would work great there.
Dan

JawKnee

12-26-07, 11:43 PM

JawKnee
It's a decent location. The hill in the distance to the NW might be a small problem. More likely all the trees around it. They could be in the way just enough to make things interesting. Be sure to try several locations around the house if one is a little fussy.
A 4221 would work great there.
Dan

I now know that I have things setup correctly, but unfortunately, only get a few channels with either antennas and the picture doesn't look great at all. I don't think I've been able to get a HD channel to come in yet. However, I don't know what channel #s the OTA HD channels are.

What's a 4221? :) Thanks again for the help!

codeyf

12-27-07, 02:48 AM

Antenna is gone!

daleq

12-27-07, 05:35 PM

What's a 4221? :) Thanks again for the help!
A ChannelMaster 4221. One vendor (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SCM4221A) I've bought from.

Dale

LynnwoodBrando

12-29-07, 01:07 AM

Budget_HT

12-29-07, 01:43 AM

Hi folks, I'll start by saying I'm a total noob when it comes to HD, and this forum. With that, I have some questions that are pretty basic, so I appologize for taking us back a couple years. If this forum was broken down a little more, I wouldn't have 200 pages of posts to look through for answers. Anyway, here goes:

info:
I have a Panasonic TH-42PX60U plasma, with built-in ATSC tuner, no external antenna.
I have comcast basic cable, no HD box.
I live in Lynnwood, on 132nd St SW & Mukilteo Speedway (hwy 525)

question(s):
1) this thing is advertised as able to "pull HD signals out of the air"...can I really get OTA signals with no external antenna?
2) if yes on #1...HOW? I have scoured all the channels with nothing. I've typed them in as regular numbers (e.g. 38) and also as the digital channel (e.g. 4-1).
3) Can someone give me the 'tards version of how to tune into HD channels...am I looking for regular numbers, dashed numbers, do i need to change TV settings, etc.?

Thanks you guys in advance for the help, I really appreciate your time and patience.

Brando

Your set has an ATSC tuner that can receive 8VSB signals from an antenna and QAM signals from a cable TV connection.

If you connect your cable directly to your HDTV (i.e., with a splitter to feed from the wall outlet to both your cable box and HDTV), you will receive most (all?) of the local HDTV and other digital channels that are also available over the air (OTA).

You need to set up your TV for cable reception (instead of antenna) and perform a channel scan to find and identify the channels you receive. For digital channels this channel scan can take a long time, possibly 10+ minutes. Be patient and let it finish.

When done, most likely your set will identify the HD channels as 4-1 (comparable to analog channel 4), 5-1, etc.

Let us know how you do with this.

zyland

12-29-07, 03:32 AM

pastiche usually posts the latest "Comcast channel mapping information" as a cable.pdf or cable.txt on the "AVS Forum->HDTV->Local HDTV Info and Reception->Seattle, WA - Comcast" forum.

This document is frequently handy because Comcast doesn't always pass on the PSIP information. This is how the KOMO HD channel which is really broadcast on Comcast channel 82-4 shows up on your TV as channel 4-1.

You should be able to get all of the local HD channels (KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KONG and KMYQ) with limited basic Comcast as well as some local SD channels.

So if KIRO doesn't show up at 7-1 or KMYQ doesn't show up at 22-1, it might be accessible at 110-2 or 96-1 respectively.

Whidbey

12-29-07, 06:41 PM

artshotwell

12-29-07, 10:45 PM

I'm sure getting frustrated watching KOMO lately. Just tonight I watched last night's episode of Ugly Betty. The last segment was all in SD. The other morning, I turned on Good Morning America and they kept switching back and forth between HD and SD, even switching during in studio shots. Like GMA would start in HD, then a few minutes in, while someone on set was interviewing someone else on set, suddenly, they'd switch to SD. Go through a break, another segment, another break, back to the studio in SD and a minute or two into that segment, back to HD. Anyone know what gives with them???

quarque

12-29-07, 11:37 PM

The weather finally cleared long enough today for me to install my tripod and 10 foot mast. I mounted the rotator at the base of a short mast, attached to the tripod, and the 10 foot mast onto the rotator. I used a homemade bushing/bearing support near the top of the short mast to relieve the rotator from side loads. In addition, I also replaced some cheap twist-on connectors with higher quality compression type connectors, so they may play some part in the signal improvements.
What a difference a few feet can make. I can now get PBS reliably, and most of the other channels come in stronger too.

Here's a breakdown: (Channel / Bars on my Samsung 260, best being 10)

4 / 7 (stronger than before)
5 / 6 (stronger than before):)
7 / 10 (stronger than before)
9 / 4 (stronger than before):)
11 / 2 (Used to be stonger, now weaker, strange):(
12 / 7 (about the same as before)
13 / 10 (stronger than before)
16 / 5 (stronger than before)
20 / 10 (stronger than before)
22 / 7 (stronger than before)
33 / 7 (was coming in fine, then just stopped, then came in strong again, transmitter may have been down for a few minutes?)
42 / 6 (stronger than before)
45 / 6 (stronger than before)
51 / 0 (weaker than before, but I d
on't care about 51)

I found it odd that 11 would come in weaker. I do use a CM 7777 pre-amp, is it possible I am overloading the reciever?

Congrats on a mostly successful upgrade. One of the oddities of digital reception is the effect you have seen on ch 11. Signal phasing greatly affects a tuner front end. You are always receiving reflections on every channel that are out of phase to some degree. The tuner has to sort out which is the strongest (main) signal. When you move your antenna you change the phasing by a slight amount. So now ch 11 has a stronger reflection at your new height. It would be worth trying it without the 7777 for grins. You should also experiment with antenna orientation because sometimes you can tune out a reflection without losing the main signal. Since you have a rotator this is easy to try. If you find a location where ch 11 works then make note of the direction and see what else works or not.

LynnwoodBrando

12-30-07, 03:31 PM

Your set has an ATSC tuner that can receive 8VSB signals from an antenna and QAM signals from a cable TV connection.

If you connect your cable directly to your HDTV (i.e., with a splitter to feed from the wall outlet to both your cable box and HDTV), you will receive most (all?) of the local HDTV and other digital channels that are also available over the air (OTA).

You need to set up your TV for cable reception (instead of antenna) and perform a channel scan to find and identify the channels you receive. For digital channels this channel scan can take a long time, possibly 10+ minutes. Be patient and let it finish.

When done, most likely your set will identify the HD channels as 4-1 (comparable to analog channel 4), 5-1, etc.

Let us know how you do with this.

Works like a charm, thanks! Now I have to figure out a clever way to switch back and forth from the box to the wall.

DrCrawn

12-30-07, 04:28 PM

I don't visit this thread much anymore, mostly because I feel our digital channels have reached a pretty good level of consistency.

So please go easy on me when I ask a few questions about KOMO's plans.

Are they working on getting Jeopardy and Wheel in HD still?

And lastly, what are their plans for HD newcasts? KING has taken the lead in this respect, and I find it hard to justify watching KOMO for news anymore. It would be nice to have the option.

Thanks.

webbah

12-31-07, 03:57 PM

rdn

12-31-07, 10:29 PM

No, SD (and some HD) satellite boxes don't have OTA tuners.

zyland

01-01-08, 07:09 PM

DanKurts

01-01-08, 08:39 PM

can this also be achieved with an SD Sat box?

webbah
Most SD boxes have no OTA tuners, as rdn said, and when the boxes do have a tuner, it still won't work. OTA is 8VSB and cable is QAM. Different kinds of modulation or protocol.
Dan

DanKurts

01-01-08, 09:10 PM

The weather finally cleared long enough today for me to install my tripod and 10 foot mast. I mounted the rotator at the base of a short mast, attached to the tripod, and the 10 foot mast onto the rotator. I used a homemade bushing/bearing support near the top of the short mast to relieve the rotator from side loads. In addition, I also replaced some cheap twist-on connectors with higher quality compression type connectors, so they may play some part in the signal improvements.
What a difference a few feet can make. I can now get PBS reliably, and most of the other channels come in stronger too.

Here's a breakdown: (Channel / Bars on my Samsung 260, best being 10)

4 / 7 (stronger than before)
5 / 6 (stronger than before):)
7 / 10 (stronger than before)
9 / 4 (stronger than before):)
11 / 2 (Used to be stonger, now weaker, strange):(
12 / 7 (about the same as before)
13 / 10 (stronger than before)
16 / 5 (stronger than before)
20 / 10 (stronger than before)
22 / 7 (stronger than before)
33 / 7 (was coming in fine, then just stopped, then came in strong again, transmitter may have been down for a few minutes?)
42 / 6 (stronger than before)
45 / 6 (stronger than before)
51 / 0 (weaker than before, but I d
on't care about 51)

I found it odd that 11 would come in weaker. I do use a CM 7777 pre-amp, is it possible I am overloading the reciever?

Whidbey
Two things could've caused ch11 to "weaken".

First, the number of bars is NOT signal strength. It's an indicator/ratio of how much good signal to how much bad signal and noise. It does give you an idea of what's going on. Actually, you could have vastly improved the real level or strength of ch11. Problem is you got more bad than good, as well. As quarque mentioned, slight rotation of the antenna might be able to get around this. Be sure to move it slightly, and then wait.........wait.......and let the decoders do their thing. Give it about 5 seconds. It takes a bit longer on ugly signals to load up the buffers. I have the same tuner, and it can do amazing things, but it needs to get enough to work with. It's not slow, just takes longer to work it's magic.

Second, you may have moved the antenna into a reflected signal, or got it partially blocked, all from trees or obstructions. The signal is huge/wide, compared to analog, and it all has to get there at the same time and level, or very close. Again, you can't really tell what's going on with the built in indicators. And sadly, the "ten-bar" type indicators are even less indicitive than the 0-100% styles.
Patience is the key.
And even if you only get 2 bars, if it locks and is steady, no big deal. My ch28 KBTC comes in on the back side of the antenna, and won't even register on my analyzer/meter, yet the H260 locks on to what amounts to fumes, and is rock steady.

You've done some very good work. Gold star on your forehead!
Dan

DanKurts

01-01-08, 09:25 PM

https://www.dtv2009.gov/

The FAQ (https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx) contains some very important limitations

#1. each household can apply for up to two coupons
#2. coupons expire 90 days after they are issued.
#3. coupons can only be applied to "approved" convertor boxes sold by "approved" retailers.
#4. They haven't provided a list of "approved" convertor boxes yet (estimation is late February/early March)
#5. They haven't provided a list of "approved" retails yet.

zyland
Great info.
I would like to recommend that people wait before jumping in, specially since they have a limited 90 day life on coupons. I would like to see one of these "approved" tuners in action, under tough conditions, before recommending it. If anyone see's one actually for sale, let me know. I would like to try one out.
Also, there may be other manufacturers that jump in with tuners later in the year. There's plenty of time. If you have to jump, the Samsung H260 is a winner, and is also a QAM Cable tuner, as well. If you move where OTA isn't, and cable is, it can be used there, too, and you don't need to pay extra for the cable box to get local HD, if they put on unencrypted, like Comcast.
Dan

Whidbey

01-02-08, 11:41 AM

Whidbey
Two things could've caused ch11 to "weaken".

First, the number of bars is NOT signal strength. It's an indicator/ratio of how much good signal to how much bad signal and noise. It does give you an idea of what's going on. Actually, you could have vastly improved the real level or strength of ch11. Problem is you got more bad than good, as well. As quarque mentioned, slight rotation of the antenna might be able to get around this. Be sure to move it slightly, and then wait.........wait.......and let the decoders do their thing. Give it about 5 seconds. It takes a bit longer on ugly signals to load up the buffers. I have the same tuner, and it can do amazing things, but it needs to get enough to work with. It's not slow, just takes longer to work it's magic.

Second, you may have moved the antenna into a reflected signal, or got it partially blocked, all from trees or obstructions. The signal is huge/wide, compared to analog, and it all has to get there at the same time and level, or very close. Again, you can't really tell what's going on with the built in indicators. And sadly, the "ten-bar" type indicators are even less indicitive than the 0-100% styles.
Patience is the key.
And even if you only get 2 bars, if it locks and is steady, no big deal. My ch28 KBTC comes in on the back side of the antenna, and won't even register on my analyzer/meter, yet the H260 locks on to what amounts to fumes, and is rock steady.

You've done some very good work. Gold star on your forehead!
Dan

Thanks for the info. Interestingly, even with the two bars on Ch 11, I get a pretty reliable signal with few drop-outs. I checked the analog version on Ch 11, and it was really bad. Terrible multipath and the audio was bad too. Oh well.
I thought I might have a chance at KBTC, but no luck. I did tune it in one night, but as you or quarqe said, those guys play with their signal now and then.

Whidbey

01-02-08, 11:54 AM

zyland
Great info.
I would like to recommend that people wait before jumping in, specially since they have a limited 90 day life on coupons. I would like to see one of these "approved" tuners in action, under tough conditions, before recommending it. If anyone see's one actually for sale, let me know. I would like to try one out.
Also, there may be other manufacturers that jump in with tuners later in the year.

I jumped. I got the impression the coupons are good for 90 days from date of issue, which is supposed to roughly coincide with the date the units hit the store shelves. "Rumor is" that most of the boxes have 6th gen chips in them, so who knows, this may make them even better than the 260 as far as sensitivity goes.

tuquet

01-02-08, 01:04 PM

Dan and/or Larry,

Any chance I can get Queen Ann from Deception Pass State Park assuming I can clear the trees?

Thanks.

zyland

01-02-08, 01:42 PM

Whidbey, I think you are correct in your assumption that it's 90 days from issuance. So I think the clock starts when they send it to you which they shouldn't do until there are units available.

But I think I agree with Dan and am going to wait until we can actually read some reviews.

Update, looks like the NTIA has approved a list of retailers.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTV_CertifiedRetailers_121107.pdf

This includes the biggies: Wal-mart, Best Buy, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Target, KMart, Sam's Club, Sears, as well as a bunch of single shop locations.

as well as a list of certified converter boxes

http://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm

But I don't think any of these are available yet

quarque

01-02-08, 09:31 PM

Dan and/or Larry,

Any chance I can get Queen Ann from Deception Pass State Park assuming I can clear the trees?

Thanks.

Depends on exactly what part of the park you are in. It is quite large with many hills. You're also 55 miles from QA hill so you'll need a good antenna + amp. If you can give me an exact location or lat/lon I can give you a better idea.

tuquet

01-02-08, 10:08 PM

Depends on exactly what part of the park you are in. It is quite large with many hills. You're also 55 miles from QA hill so you'll need a good antenna + amp. If you can give me an exact location or lat/lon I can give you a better idea.
I have no ideas of the exact location. It's one of the cabins up there. We are going camping and I wonder if I can get the game. Looks like I'll have to get do with radio and/or analog. Thanks.

DanKurts

01-03-08, 01:15 AM

DanKurts

01-03-08, 01:27 AM

Thanks for the info. Interestingly, even with the two bars on Ch 11, I get a pretty reliable signal with few drop-outs. I checked the analog version on Ch 11, and it was really bad. Terrible multipath and the audio was bad too. Oh well.
I thought I might have a chance at KBTC, but no luck. I did tune it in one night, but as you or quarqe said, those guys play with their signal now and then.

Whidbey
KBTC is transmitting with only about 7kw. Ch's 4-5-7 are about 900kw to 1000kw. Even ch11 has 850kw. Interestingly, ch11 transmitting pattern is considerably weaker in your direction. This is a picture of that pattern viewed from above the tower, called a polar plot

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=42363&rotate=0.00&p0=0.627&p10=0.640&p20=0.645&p30=0.641&p40=0.631&p50=0.613&p60=0.592&p70=0.579&p80=0.570&p90=0.579&p100=0.610&p110=0.650&p120=0.699&p130=0.759&p140=0.817&p150=0.869&p160=0.914&p170=0.951&p180=0.975&p190=0.993&p200=1.000&p210=0.996&p220=0.981&p230=0.955&p240=0.920&p250=0.876&p260=0.826&p270=0.771&p280=0.714&p290=0.661&p300=0.615&p310=0.583&p320=0.569&p330=0.571&p340=0.586&p350=0.607&p360=0.627&

With all the above, it's easy to understand why KBTC is very tough, unless it's line of sight.
Dan

Whidbey

01-03-08, 12:04 PM

Last night I was watching a 2 hour program about Andrew Jackson. About 1 hour and 40 minutes into the show PBS went bonkers. Picture and audio all messed up, however no change in my signal strength indicator (5 bars). My Samsung box freaked and retracted to 41.7, the physical channel of 9.5. I thought it would only be momentary, but it never recovered. The Samsung would skip past the PBS 9's, and then would only recognize 41 as PBS. PBS was no longer in the guide either.

Anyone else experience the same?

Hopefully, things will be back to normal today.

Whidbey

01-05-08, 06:29 PM

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3767/antennasetupjk7.jpg

hateads

01-05-08, 07:33 PM

DanKurts

01-06-08, 03:23 AM

I live at 1800 Taylor Ave N in Seattle (east top of Queen Anne), very close to the three big antennas. It's a big building and I have a cheapo rabbit ears on the roof. I get most everything except 5. I don't understand because 16 comes in fine and it shares the same antenna with 5.

I am stumped. I really want to watch football. Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.

hateads
Surprisingly, it's the simple cheap antennas that do pretty well in situations like that. Their ability to pick up from many directions is a plus. It's also why ch5 is tough, as it's the closest to you.
Ch16 HD is about 485mhz, ch5 HD is about 677mhz. Big difference in the what affects them. The main signal is way above your roof. You are getting the waves rolling off the tower and other noise. To make it worse, being over the side of the hill, that signal bounces off everything. It's a real bear to get good reliable reception there without finding that sweet spot. When I use a meter around there, the differences are huge in just moving the location 8 or 10 inches, in ANY direction.
UHF doesn't do well on rabbit ears. If you have a combo style UHF/VHF setup, it's the loop of wire, about 6" to 8" in diameter, that's doing the real work. Make sure you have the right hookup wire, as some have one for each band. Do NOT use an amplifier. If it has one built in, turn it OFF !
I grew up on the hill and have helped many people up there fight the analog problems. It's still not easy with HD. Good part is once you get a lock on a channel, it's perfect. Patience is going to win out. Realize, too, that when you move the antenna, step away and then check readings. If you just swivel it around with your hand on it, while someone else watches, it will be much harder to find the good location and direction. Turn it, step away 3 or 4 feet for a few seconds, let the tuner decode and then do it again.
My brother in law used to live one block south of ch4 tower. He had to use cable. He even got ch5 audio coming in on the phone lines ! You could change the volume and get channel 4 sometimes by simply wrapping up the excess wall cord and moving it around !
Happy tweaking !
Dan

DanKurts

01-06-08, 03:49 AM

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3767/antennasetupjk7.jpg

Whidbey

Nicely Done!!
Some suggestions. At Tacoma Screw products, they have all kinds and sizes of big, long U bolts. Find a couple that will stradle the whole setup, bearing, saddle and fixed mast. I have a hunch that those zip ties are not UV rated, and the Sun will rot them away in a few years. The plastic will also stretch enough to loosen things up. NOT something you want in a storm !
Did you throw some sealant on the screws going through the roof, or pitch pads under the feet? Hard to see in the photo......
Over time, those ring bolts that clamp the mast in place will loosen a little. I usually add a 2-1/2" #8 or #10 bolt throught the upper clamp ring and mast on the tripod. You will obviously have to use a long drill bit to go through it and the mast. It will keep the mast from turning, kind of like a giant cotter pin. Don't do it on the lower clamp, as it has more give in it from the long support arms going out to the legs. Those 4228's have a fair amount of wind load, and can really do a twisty/oscillation around in a storm.
Add a ground wire to one of the bolts on the rotor mount. It's the closest point to the motor and other voltage potential.

Again, well done. Never seen one like that. Very creative and clever solution!

Dan

Whidbey

01-06-08, 07:56 PM

Some suggestions. At Tacoma Screw products, they have all kinds and sizes of big, long U bolts. Find a couple that will stradle the whole setup, bearing, saddle and fixed mast. I have a hunch that those zip ties are not UV rated, and the Sun will rot them away in a few years. The plastic will also stretch enough to loosen things up. NOT something you want in a storm!

That is really only a temporary set-up. I plan on getting a proper thrust bearing up there soon. Like this one: http://www.oz1bxm.dk/sat/rotator-mast-and-support-bearing_big.jpg

Did you throw some sealant on the screws going through the roof, or pitch pads under the feet? Hard to see in the photo......

Yes. The tripod came with pitch pads. Also, for extra security I had a friend hold 2 foot sections of 2x4 under where the feet meet the roof, so the lag bolts would have something to grab. It was impossible to get all three feet line up with a truss.

Over time, those ring bolts that clamp the mast in place will loosen a little. I usually add a 2-1/2" #8 or #10 bolt through the upper clamp ring and mast on the tripod. You will obviously have to use a long drill bit to go through it and the mast. It will keep the mast from turning, kind of like a giant cotter pin. Don't do it on the lower clamp, as it has more give in it from the long support arms going out to the legs. Those 4228's have a fair amount of wind load, and can really do a twisty/oscillation around in a storm.
Add a ground wire to one of the bolts on the rotor mount. It's the closest point to the motor and other voltage potential.

Again, well done. Never seen one like that. Very creative and clever solution!

Dan

Thanks for the suggestions!

DanKurts

01-07-08, 03:13 AM

That is really only a temporary set-up. I plan on getting a proper thrust bearing up there soon. Like this one: http://www.oz1bxm.dk/sat/rotator-mast-and-support-bearing_big.jpg

Yes. The tripod came with pitch pads. Also, for extra security I had a friend hold 2 foot sections of 2x4 under where the feet meet the roof, so the lag bolts would have something to grab. It was impossible to get all three feet line up with a truss.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Whidbey
Now that's a proper bearing!
Yeah, the 3ft tripods weren't made for lining up with the beams. There are ways of twisting it a bit to make it work. The 5 footer works better. Again, more bonus points for doing the 2X4 under the roof. That's the proper way to handle it.
You have learned well, Grasshopper!
Dan

hateads

01-07-08, 11:17 PM

Thanks for the info Dan. I played around quite a bit with no success. One thing I found suspicious is that I get different signal levels on 5 versus 48 (48 being the actual channel). When I try the same experiment with other channels like 7 (39) I get identical signal strengths, which is what I would expect. Seems fishy to me, but maybe you can explain?

DanKurts

01-08-08, 04:06 AM

hateads

01-08-08, 08:41 PM

Dan - Yeah, all digital channels as far as I know The receiver is an Accurian, the one sold at Radio Shack a couple years ago.

DanKurts

01-09-08, 01:05 AM

Dan - Yeah, all digital channels as far as I know The receiver is an Accurian, the one sold at Radio Shack a couple years ago.

hateads
Think you just answered the question......
You might ask what they want to fix it. Sometimes it's fairly cheap, might be worth it.
Dan

dwb123456

01-10-08, 03:04 PM

I live in Arlington and the closest person I've seen in this thread is "Whidbey" from Marysville. I'm east of Arlington airport on the hill, just west of highway 9. (7800 block of 190th place ne, Arlington 98223).

I get pretty good SD signals from my location with an outside antenna above my 2nd story. I only care about 4, 5 and 7, although I wouldn't complain if I could get channel 9. On my SD antenna 4 & 5 are at a slightly different angle than 7 for best reception.

There are a lot of trees between my house and Seattle, but no houses in the way and nearest tree in the line of sight is 150-250 feet away (depending which end of the house I mount antenna). Unfortunately there are also Seattle City Light transmission lines above my line of sight approximately 500-700 feet from me (if that matters)

I am planning on buying an HDTV in a month or so.

1) I know it is hard to predict and I won't hold anyone to it, but do I have any chance at reception without constant dropouts and problems?

2) Because I am probably borderline on reception, should I try and get an OTA antenna now or would there be a benefit to wait until next February in hopes that the Seattle stations improve their antenna locations or signal?

3) Although we have two TVs, I'm thinking of running the antenna only to our main TV in order to avoid splitting the signal.

4) I plan on having someone local install the antenna for me (which I also did with my OTA), the roof is high and I don't want to fall on my head. Any advice when I am looking for a local installer, like certain questions to ask?

Thanks

zyland

01-10-08, 10:33 PM

Well, with a SD test pattern. For what it's worth.

Whidbey

01-10-08, 11:53 PM

I know it is hard to predict and I won't hold anyone to it, but do I have any chance at reception without constant dropouts and problems?

I won't attempt at making a prediction of how your digital reception might be, but I can offer an inexpensive way to find out. Apply for a coupon for one of the digital converter boxes and pick one up when they come out, in about a month and a half or so. They are designed to work with a regular analog TV. Give a whirl, if the results are good, proceed with your purchase plans, if not, wait and see if things change next year.

Edit - I noticed you referred to your antenna as "SD". If it is capable of getting UHF, it will work for digital reception.

pastiche

01-11-08, 01:01 AM

Well, with a SD test pattern. For what it's worth.

I was going to make a snarky comment about that being even less useful than the KIRO TowerCam... but color bars ARE actually useful sometimes... :-)

hdtvxpert

01-11-08, 03:01 AM

zyland

01-11-08, 12:36 PM

Yes, you can get unencrypted QAM channels with a QAM tuner and without a cable box or CableCard via Comcast's limited basic package. All of the local HD broadcast channels are available plus a few SD channels.

dwb123456

01-11-08, 01:57 PM

Great idea on the "digital converter boxes", thanks Whidbey. Since my new monitor says "Tuner: NTSC/ATSC/QAM", do I still need the "digital converter boxes" to test this?

Sorry, one more basic question about QAMS tuners:
My current input is from my 10 year old aerial TV antenna. I'm not sure if my current antenna, which is fairly large and I think a channelmaster, has UHF or not. I'll see if I still have the paperwork around.

When I look at the spec for the Panasonic I intend to buy it says "Tuner: NTSC/ATSC/QAM".

Is it possible that I may already have some HDTV available when I connect my new TV with QAMS tuner to my existing aerial antenna?

zyland

01-11-08, 08:45 PM

Great idea on the "digital converter boxes", thanks Whidbey. Since my new monitor says "Tuner: NTSC/ATSC/QAM", do I still need the "digital converter boxes" to test this?
When you get the new monitor and if it has a ATSC tuner, then you will have no need of the "digital converter box" for this test. You can just test it with the new TV. The coupons probably won't be mailed out until late February or early March, so you may get the new TV before the coupon which means you may not want to bother with the coupon.

Sorry, one more basic question about QAMS tuners:
My current input is from my 10 year old aerial TV antenna. I'm not sure if my current antenna, which is fairly large and I think a channelmaster, has UHF or not. I'll see if I still have the paperwork around.

When I look at the spec for the Panasonic I intend to buy it says "Tuner: NTSC/ATSC/QAM".

Is it possible that I may already have some HDTV available when I connect my new TV with QAMS tuner to my existing aerial antenna?
It's possible that your existing antenna will work just fine with your new ATSC tuner. It's also possible that your mileage may vary, hence the test. The QAM tuner that you are referencing is only useful if you are subscribing to digital cable and want to watch unencrypted digital channels without a cable box.

NTSC = old analog broadcast
ATSC = new digital broadcast
QAM = new digital cable

Actually both digital tuners are ATSC. When you see ATSC tuner it usually means ATSC 8VSB (digital over the air). Whereas QAM means ATSC QAM (digital cable)

pastiche

01-11-08, 09:35 PM

Hi, I live in Las Vegas, NV. I will be staying with my dad in Shelton WA. for a while soon. My question is, can you get the local HD channels on Comcast with a QAM cable tuner in the clear without a digital cable box. Here in Vegas, on Cox cable, I have cheap basic cable, and the local HDs are clear via my set's QAM tuner. I hope I can do the same up north if I bring my TV.

I try to keep a reasonably recent Comcast/QAM channel guide posted in the Seattle - Comcast forum.

Here's the latest (i.e. last time Comcast changed anything):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12370931#post12370931

Note that Channel 117-X is where Comcast delivers channels that differ by headend. You will, instead, find Shelton/Mason County's PEG channels, as well as KATU, KGW, and KPTV from Portland, there (in SD.)

Hope this helps.

dwb123456

01-12-08, 10:57 AM

zyland,

Thanks for the NTSC = old analog broadcast, ATSC = new digital broadcast, QAM = new digital cable info.

Thanks all for the help to a newbie!

hdtvxpert

01-12-08, 01:18 PM

Thanks for the info. On the road today for the 1,200 mile drive from Vegas to Seattle with HDTV in the back of the truck! Go Seahawks!

jengle1023

01-12-08, 10:47 PM

Whidbey

I have three six foot sections of aluminum antenna poles together on a tripod on my roof. My rotator is at the top. As long as you have guy wires close to the top of the pole, wind should not be a problem. In the highest winds that I've seen, the entire mast and antenna barely moves.

Whidbey

01-13-08, 12:20 AM

jengle1023

I wanted to avoid guy wires, and only needed to clear my neighbor's roof.

DanKurts

01-13-08, 12:35 AM

zyland

01-13-08, 01:43 PM

I finally took Dan's advice and tried a ChannelMaster 4221 (I had been using an enormous Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna). Wow, what an improvement. The downside is that analog channels (especially in the low VHF range) took a big hit. Before the switch, I got the major digital and analog channels (KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, KONG, KMYQ) just fine. Sadly, digital KCPQ (from Bremerton) was subject to dropouts. Lately the dropouts had become so severe that I had been resorting to....analog.

After the switch, I kept all the major digital channels, KCPQ is now coming in rock solid. As an added bonus, I now get the following digital channels rock solid as well, KBTC, KWPX, KHCV, KWDK and KUNS. This also solves the problem I had before trying to merge two antennas. I pulled down two antennas and put up a much smaller CM 4221 with amazing results.

Thanks Dan and everyone on the forum.

dwb123456

01-13-08, 07:11 PM

dwb123456
Hard to say how reception will be. You're about 38 miles from the towers, and there's a small hill about a half mile SW. And then there's the big hill at Paine Field. Either might give you problems. I would suggest having someone local give you a survey first.
Dan

Thanks Dan,

I didn't ask for a survey last time (several years ago on regular antenna) as the installer had just put in an aerial across the street and I could see the reception quality there. I'll ask for the survey before I buy.

I don't mind paying a few hundred for the setup, but of course that's only if it works. Otherwise sounds like I may be better with basic cable.

DanKurts

01-13-08, 11:45 PM

DanKurts

01-14-08, 12:21 AM

Thanks Dan,

I didn't ask for a survey last time (several years ago on regular antenna) as the installer had just put in an aerial across the street and I could see the reception quality there. I'll ask for the survey before I buy.

I don't mind paying a few hundred for the setup, but of course that's only if it works. Otherwise sounds like I may be better with basic cable.

dwb123456
Doing a survey for HD is different. You either get HD or not. The quality is all good or nothing comes in on that channel. A survey will tell whether or not the signal is strong enough and has the necessary bit error rates for the tuner to lock on.
If it turns out it will work, be sure to use the same antenna used in the survey, or ask what flavor is required.
Dan

pastiche

01-14-08, 11:20 PM

They've gone live with the AccuWeather Channel, re-branded as Q13 Fox First Forecast Channel.

Whidbey

01-14-08, 11:25 PM

DanKurts

01-15-08, 12:52 AM

It's blowing hard and the snow is coming down sideways and I've never seen better reception from KING5. 8 to 10 bars on my signal to noise meter on my Samsung 260. Normally I get 4 or 5.

Does that mean all the bad signal noise makers go in when the weather turns bad?

Whidbey
No, just that the wind has most likely moved the tree limbs out of the way enough to allo wmore signal to pass through.
Now if you could just build that Perpetual Wind Machine you saw in Popular Mechanics, and set it up in the back yard.........
Dan

mike84

01-15-08, 03:24 AM

Well I finally got the 2 bay antenna that I ordered off of amazon last night and set it up. the good news is queen anne and capital hill are as strong as ever. Still no luck with ch.13 at all. If anyone has any ideas please let me know.

Mike

p.s. if u would like to call me instead my cell is 253-273-5355

Spike89

01-15-08, 01:36 PM

It's blowing hard and the snow is coming down sideways and I've never seen better reception from KING5. 8 to 10 bars on my signal to noise meter on my Samsung 260. Normally I get 4 or 5.

Does that mean all the bad signal noise makers go in when the weather turns bad?

Could be that the snow/moisture is attenuating some of the weaker multipath signals and allowing the tuner to better lock on to the primary signal?

I'd be curious if you got the same result using a variable attenuator.

Sporker

01-15-08, 05:53 PM

I have been lurking on this thread for awhile, piecing together a home theater system from scratch. I made a few misteps (buying the Home Depot HD-ready antenna; a ground-fault loop; thinking my receiver would have a built in HD-tuner), but I've managed to get everything working. Thanks to everyone who spends time helping out on AVS Forum.

Some particulars about my OTA situation:

Ballard, Seattle. Onkyo 605 receiver, Samsung 260H tuner, projector and surrounds. Two weeks ago I got everything assembled and ran the HD-ready Home Depot "Future Antenna" up a jerry-rigged mast at the chimney. That yielded channels, but it wasn't much different than rabbit ears attached to the Samsung 260H tuner. Some critical channels (4-1, 5-1, and 13-1) yielded spotty signal, especially 13-1. For football-viewing reasons, this was a source of some grief and lots of trips up and down the ladder to monkey with the antenna. The pre-amp included with the Future Antenna didn't do anything useful.

I bought a DB2 antenna at Amazon.com, based on recommendations here, ran that up a piece of well-grounded rebar lashed to the chimney with wire-ties, and pointed it just about due S (I see the top of Queen Anne hill from here). Both mast and coax are grounded in one place--but I haven't unified the ground with the electrical panel ground.

Since setup, I've haven't lost signal with any of the channels I'm getting--and I'm getting a lot more than I care about, 33 total. I've got 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 9-1 through 9-5, 11-1, 13-1, 16-1, 22-1, etc.

I find myself evangelizing over-the-air HD to friends now; I'd say 90% of them had no idea HD was available for "free" this way. Thanks.

DanKurts

01-15-08, 11:53 PM

Could be that the snow/moisture is attenuating some of the weaker multipath signals and allowing the tuner to better lock on to the primary signal?

I'd be curious if you got the same result using a variable attenuator.

Spike89
Your attenuation theory is okay for Ballard, or close in, but Marysville is a long, long haul. It attenuates everything, good and bad, and keeps the tuner from getting overloaded. At long distances it's not likely to be the cause.
You're right about the wet limbs attenuating, just like leaves. If there were snow on the limbs, and they weighed them down enough, in the right situation, it could help, or make it worse.
Hard to say exactly why his improvement without seeing a before and after on an analyzer.
Dan

DanKurts

01-15-08, 11:57 PM

odroku

01-17-08, 03:47 PM

quarque

01-18-08, 12:35 AM

DanKurts

01-18-08, 02:12 AM

I guess I come here begging for the wisdom of people familiar with how this works. My research on using an antenna to get HD broadcasts on my telly has left me mostly more-confused.

Having decided to dump any and all means of paying for programming from cable and satellite providers, I wanted to still be able to watch football this weekend. I went and bought a $40 indoor antenna and hooked it up to my TV, which is HD ready. I managed to get a lot of pretty good signals, but cannot get even an SD signal for a Fox station!

I live in Georgetown, which is on the south side of the city and near Boeing Field. It's a relatively flat area.

Anyone have any guidance for me?

Thanks.

odroku
If your indoor antenna has a preamp, meaning a power supply to run it, you could try turning it off to see if it helps. Not likely, though.

You need to get the antenna outside, and pointed more west. Signals there are very strong, and it causes your tuner to turn its internal amplifier down. Ch13 is not weak, but comes from about 20 miles away, and at almost right angles to 4,5, & 7. Your antenna is designed to reject signals from the side. Even if you turn it more west, it will still be tough. An outside antenna, like the DB2, would be small enough to not overload the tuner, and wide enough to let the others come in.
Dan

odroku

01-18-08, 02:32 AM

quarque

01-18-08, 10:05 PM

My cross streets are Flora and Marginal Way, if that helps.

I haven't turned on the amplification at all on the indoor antenna. Actually, I did and found it did more harm than good. Go figure.

I'm interested in more feedback on the outdoor options. I wouldn't imagine I'd need something too big as I'm getting pretty much everything else. It's just the Fox station (13?) I'm not getting.

You are in the shadow of the ridge west of the Duwamish. You *might* get ch 13 with a high mast on your roof, but who knows. The topo profile shows you are about 100' too low for direct line of sight.

odroku

01-18-08, 10:30 PM

You are in the shadow of the ridge west of the Duwamish. You *might* get ch 13 with a high mast on your roof, but who knows. The topo profile shows you are about 100' too low for direct line of sight.

That is somewhat disappointing to read.

I was hoping to put something up on the post where there currently is an unused satellite dish. I hate to put the effort out there with low chance of results.

DanKurts

01-19-08, 02:35 AM

That is somewhat disappointing to read.

I was hoping to put something up on the post where there currently is an unused satellite dish. I hate to put the effort out there with low chance of results.

odroku
It's really not that bad. The hill is far enough away and ch13 is stong enough that just getting an antenna above the roof a few feet, or enough to clear your neighbors house to the west, should do it. A 4220 would do it, or a 4221
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/antennas_outdoor.html
Satellite stuff won't work.
Dan

zyland

01-19-08, 05:32 PM

A 4220 would do it, or a 4221
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/antennas_outdoor.html

Fry's Electronics, Ace Hardware and True Value all carry Channelmaster antenna. I used the store locator of their websites and called around until I found a local store that had one in stock. It saved me the shipping and I got it right away.

odroku

01-19-08, 06:42 PM

Fry's Electronics, Ace Hardware and True Value all carry Channelmaster antenna. I used the store locator of their websites and called around until I found a local store that had one in stock. It saved me the shipping and I got it right away.

I called around and could only find the 3016 in stock anywhere.

Amazon had the other antennas suggested, plus they do offer free shipping. It won't be here by gametime, obviously, but I'll have it soon enough I guess.

I appreciate all the helpful suggestions. I hope to report successful watching of Fox in HD very soon.

rdn

01-20-08, 01:50 PM

zyland

01-20-08, 03:01 PM

What is channel 42-1? The PSIP data says KWBF-DT, but wikipedia says that station is a MyNetwork affiliate in Little Rock, AR. It appears to be showing religious programming. I also get PSIP data showing 42-2 as KYPX, 42-3 as Tube and 43-4 as Lick TV, but there is no signal from these.

Did a local station somehow end up with hardware programed for another station?
digital 42 is the local Daystar affiliate KWDK. And yes they appear to have just borrowed the PSIP information from KWBF without bothering to update it. Not only is the channel 42-1 incorrectly labeled KWBF-DT but they also transmit PSIP information for subchannels 2,3 and 4 without any actual content. You can go ahead and delete these channels from your lineup. I have sent them email about this but didn't get any response.

rdn

01-20-08, 10:13 PM

pastiche

01-20-08, 10:36 PM

Thanks. Sounds a bit lame on their part (their engineers should be able to deal with that). My Directv receiver doesn't receive this channel (it uses a database rather than scanning) so I hadn't noticed it before.

Even the FCC has had trouble reaching anyone at KWDK:

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2007/DA-07-4030A1.html

It's a bit long, but an amusing read.

Also, for what it's worth, KWBF 42 (DT 30) is in Little Rock and is owned & operated by, none other than... Equity.

KWDK ex-56 (DT 42) leases its Seattle translator (KUSE 58) from... Equity.

What a tangled web.

rdn

01-21-08, 12:02 AM

What a way to run a TV station :confused:

miner

01-21-08, 10:45 AM

Odroku,

If you called Fry's, it has been my experience the folks on the other end make little or no effort to actually find if the items are at the store. That combined with their somewhat antiquated inventory system means they may or may not have it. I have seen CM 4228s at the Renton store on many occasions. The store has 2 sections where antenna's are present, 1 by the TVs and 1 by the Computer / RF section which is where I've seen the 4228, plus pre-amps and masts. If you have some time, you could make your own 4 bay out of wood and metal clothes hangers. Search on homemade antenna.

Miner

zyland

01-21-08, 07:57 PM

I'm currently watching Quincy, M.E. on 7-2.

quarque

01-21-08, 10:35 PM

I'm currently watching Quincy, M.E. on 7-2.

woo hoo... Perry Mason on now in B&W. I think I just wet my pants.

I'm glad to see our precious HD bandwidth is being well spent on this all this worthwhile... crap.

miner

01-21-08, 10:55 PM

Quarque,

At least it is better than the SeaTac or space needle camera. That is a waste of bandwidth.

Miner

Spike89

01-22-08, 01:15 PM

Even the FCC has had trouble reaching anyone at KWDK:

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2007/DA-07-4030A1.html

It's a bit long, but an amusing read.

Also, for what it's worth, KWBF 42 (DT 30) is in Little Rock and is owned & operated by, none other than... Equity.

KWDK ex-56 (DT 42) leases its Seattle translator (KUSE 58) from... Equity.

What a tangled web.

Wow. Just read the linked FCC action on them.

<BEGIN RANT> That would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Your tax dollars wasted in action trying to track these bozos down for what should be a routine, 30 minute inspection. Now if somebody really wants to have some fun, go down to their "studio" (wherever that may be this week), and ask to see their "public file". They are required by law to maintain one and allow you to inspect it. What, no file? Nobody even there? Document this and file a complaint with the FCC. Keep doing it until the FCC yanks their license or fines them into bankruptcy. These clowns are burning up precious radio spectrum with boilerplate programming piped in from some other state. So much for serving in the "public interest, convenience, and necessity". Don't even get me started on the shopping channels consuming the airwaves. <END RANT>:mad:

Whidbey

01-22-08, 01:47 PM

http://www.thebellinghambusinessjournal.com/december2007/kvos.php#

zyland

01-22-08, 02:36 PM

Wow. Just read the linked FCC action on them.

<BEGIN RANT> That would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Your tax dollars wasted in action trying to track these bozos down for what should be a routine, 30 minute inspection. Now if somebody really wants to have some fun, go down to their "studio" (wherever that may be this week), and ask to see their "public file". They are required by law to maintain one and allow you to inspect it. What, no file? Nobody even there? Document this and file a complaint with the FCC. Keep doing it until the FCC yanks their license or fines them into bankruptcy. These clowns are burning up precious radio spectrum with boilerplate programming piped in from some other state. So much for serving in the "public interest, convenience, and necessity". Don't even get me started on the shopping channels consuming the airwaves. <END RANT>:mad:
If anybody from the Seatac area wants to actually confirm that KWDK actually has a local presence, the studio address of KWDK is

18000 International Blvd Ste 1007
Seatac, WA 98188
Phone: (206) 241-5935

If you are nearby, visit them and let us know if you have any better luck than the FCC.

Whidbey

01-22-08, 02:50 PM

If anybody from the Seatac area wants to actually confirm that KWDK actually has a local presence, the studio address of KWDK is

18000 International Blvd Ste 1007
Seatac, WA 98188
Phone: (206) 241-5935

If you are nearby, visit them and let us know if you have any better luck than the FCC.

Should we bring pitchforks and torches? Why is there focus on this TV station? Just deleted it from your channel list and let the FCC do the rest. If there are those who care to keep it on the air, let them go bang on the door.

odroku

01-23-08, 02:19 PM

odroku

01-23-08, 02:24 PM

fred2

01-23-08, 06:39 PM

woo hoo... Perry Mason on now in B&W. I think I just wet my pants.

I'm glad to see our precious HD bandwidth is being well spent on this all this worthwhile... crap.

I was just coming here to see which channel was the NEW ONE. I remembered reading that one of the "secondary" channels was going with Oldies but Goodies.

I'm now watching Rockford Files (my dad loved that show - may he rest in peace)

rdiotte

01-23-08, 06:58 PM

quarque

01-23-08, 11:50 PM

Okay, I've connected all the coaxial cables to my new CM 4220 and have managed to receive all the same signals, only stronger, that I was receiving with my simple FM antenna from my stereo connected to the television, but STILL NO KCPQ 13!

I've oriented the antenna towards the west as suggested. I've got fairly clear sky in that direction. That is, I'm fairly sure I'm clearing the house in that direction, which is squat and at least 70 yards away.

I really don't want to just throw my hands up in the air and surrender, but I'm definitely at a loss for what the problem could be at this point.

So, once again I beg, HELP!

As I posted earlier, you have a high ridge to the west and I believe that is your problem. If it were not, you'd at least get a whisper of signal from ch13. Not much you could do except try a really tall mast on the roof (and that might still yield nothing). Perhaps consider cable or satellite if you have to have ch 13.

rdn

01-24-08, 01:00 AM

The 850Kw full power antenna plot is this one:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=68209&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.920&p30=0.801&p40=0.612&p50=0.389&p60=0.240&p70=0.235&p80=0.246&p90=0.254&p100=0.281&p110=0.281&p120=0.254&p130=0.246&p140=0.235&p150=0.240&p160=0.389&p170=0.612&p180=0.801&p190=0.920&p200=0.978&p210=1.000&p220=0.976&p230=0.871&p240=0.656&p250=0.366&p260=0.216&p270=0.401&p280=0.548&p290=0.548&p300=0.401&p310=0.216&p320=0.366&p330=0.656&p340=0.871&p350=0.976&p360=1.000&

RDiotte
CE, KSTW:)

Interesting, I'm just about in the bottom of the null at 260 degrees but still get a good signal here (85% on a Directv HR20).

DanKurts

01-24-08, 01:51 AM

just a minor correction here, DanKurts....the polar plot you linked to was for KSTW's temporary low power DTV antenna aimed to cover our city of license, Tacoma before we installed our full power antenna in late 2004
.
The 850Kw full power antenna plot is this one:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=68209&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.920&p30=0.801&p40=0.612&p50=0.389&p60=0.240&p70=0.235&p80=0.246&p90=0.254&p100=0.281&p110=0.281&p120=0.254&p130=0.246&p140=0.235&p150=0.240&p160=0.389&p170=0.612&p180=0.801&p190=0.920&p200=0.978&p210=1.000&p220=0.976&p230=0.871&p240=0.656&p250=0.366&p260=0.216&p270=0.401&p280=0.548&p290=0.548&p300=0.401&p310=0.216&p320=0.366&p330=0.656&p340=0.871&p350=0.976&p360=1.000&

RDiotte
CE, KSTW:)

PS: when we go back to ch.11 as our permanent digital channel in 2009...our plot will be this one:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=68208&rotate=0.00&p0=0.953&p10=0.996&p14=1.000&p20=0.989&p30=0.931&p40=0.831&p50=0.705&p60=0.572&p70=0.455&p80=0.375&p90=0.338&p100=0.329&p110=0.329&p120=0.338&p130=0.375&p140=0.455&p150=0.572&p160=0.705&p170=0.831&p180=0.931&p190=0.989&p196=1.000&p200=0.996&p210=0.953&p220=0.867&p230=0.753&p240=0.632&p250=0.524&p260=0.447&p270=0.405&p280=0.390&p290=0.390&p300=0.405&p310=0.447&p320=0.524&p330=0.632&p340=0.753&p350=0.867&p360=0.953&

rdiotte
Thanks for the correction and update. Curious as to why you don't just radiate equally in all directions. Also, why use the old ch11 frequency when everyone is already dialed in on ch 36? A lot of people have small UHF antennas and don't want a big VHF one. (Even a small 5 element high band is about 5ft long) I constantly get install requests to hide the antenna as much as possible. A small high band VHF is much tougher to do. You can cobble up an end mount to hide it on the side of a house, or under an eave, but if you need to aim it something other than right angles to the house, it's a challenge. Obviously there's some rational reason for the change, but did they consider how many people are going to have problems? And how many are just going to say forget it and watch what they have already and not bother with ch11?
Keep the updates coming. It's great to have the info.
Thanks
Dan

DanKurts

01-24-08, 01:57 AM

Interesting, I'm just about in the bottom of the null at 260 degrees but still get a good signal here (85% on a Directv HR20).

rdn
Ch11 is usually pretty easy to get almost anywhere the others come in. It's only around Capital Hill that it gets tough, being so close. Remember, too, 85% is not signal stength, but signal to noise ratio. It could actually be fairly weak for you, but with little noise or reception problems, it will read great. Also, I usually see very good carrier to noise ratio's and bit error rates from them.
Now if we could just get the Mariners in 16:9 when they're in HD......
Dan

rdn

01-24-08, 11:23 AM

rdn
Ch11 is usually pretty easy to get almost anywhere the others come in. It's only around Capital Hill that it gets tough, being so close. Remember, too, 85% is not signal stength, but signal to noise ratio. It could actually be fairly weak for you, but with little noise or reception problems, it will read great. Also, I usually see very good carrier to noise ratio's and bit error rates from them.
Now if we could just get the Mariners in 16:9 when they're in HD......
Dan

I agree. I'm used to dealing with log antenna plots and noticed later that it was field strength, so that null isn't as deep as I thought at first--only -13.3 dB.

Yes, it would be nice to see the games on KSTW in 16:9. I see that KCTS 9-1 has been showing their local content in 16:9 and I often don't even notice that it isn't HD (or even upconverted SD).

brownnet

01-24-08, 11:25 AM

Guys-

Some Mariners news that may/may not make you happier. There will be no more games on KSTW this year. All 158 games that are not on ESPN or FOX will be carried on FSN Northwest. My understanding is that all 158 games will be carried by FSN in HD home and AWAY. So we lose OTA games, but gain all the games in HD, even those crazy 10am PDT east coast games.

tuquet

01-24-08, 02:39 PM

allen98311

01-24-08, 08:38 PM

I agree. I'm used to dealing with log antenna plots and noticed later that it was field strength, so that null isn't as deep as I thought at first--only -13.3 dB.

Yes, it would be nice to see the games on KSTW in 16:9. I see that KCTS 9-1 has been showing their local content in 16:9 and I often don't even notice that it isn't HD (or even upconverted SD).

KCTS 9-1 is not in HD, it is SD 16:9. KCTS 9-5 is their HD Channel.

quarque

01-24-08, 09:05 PM

DanKurts

01-24-08, 09:24 PM

Okay, I've connected all the coaxial cables to my new CM 4220 and have managed to receive all the same signals, only stronger, that I was receiving with my simple FM antenna from my stereo connected to the television, but STILL NO KCPQ 13!

I've oriented the antenna towards the west as suggested. I've got fairly clear sky in that direction. That is, I'm fairly sure I'm clearing the house in that direction, which is squat and at least 70 yards away.

I really don't want to just throw my hands up in the air and surrender, but I'm definitely at a loss for what the problem could be at this point.

So, once again I beg, HELP!

odroku
On my way back from town I stopped by Georgetown, and looked around your area, but didn't see any 4220. However, I did break out my 4221 and meter, and standing on the sidewalk, next to an empty lot just west of 6921 Flora, I was able to get ch13 at -9db. Signal was a little fussy for the right location to get a clean flat waveshape, but was possible. You may have to try different spots on the house, and upgrade to the 4221 (twice the size, vertically of the 4220), but should work. I know if a H260 Samsung tuner was connected to the 4221, you would pull it in, no sweat, from almost anywhere on that empty lot, even at ground level.
Dan

DanKurts

01-24-08, 10:22 PM

Some thought on the Digital Transition (it's a slow day)...

First off, I am all for it but I can't help but find some issues and wonder if they are addressed somewhere...

It is known that the public can get some assistant in form of the $40 coupons for approved STBs, but I think $40 is the least of the problems. For us who hang around here, expert and novice alike, we all know how hard it is to get a DTV channel reliably, let alone ALL channels.

Currently, with a pair of rabbit ears I can get almost if not all analog channels in the area albeit at different level of quality, from decent to unwatchable. However, those rabbit ears, when paired with a DTV receiver, give me zero DTV channel! The main challenge I see here is being able to receive most/all signals reliably. If you are not lucky, it costs a lot more than an STB to get DTV, if you can get it at all, contrary to the notion, as made believed, that the STB alone will do the magic. I sense a lot of waste will realize because of the coupons.

Is there any case where someone cannot get any services other than passable analog OTA? What will happen to these people?

Anyway, I am going to buy cable and satellite TV stocks soon...

tuquet
I agree. Analog has one redeeming advantage, some reception. I remember fixing a guys TV decades ago in Wilkeson, in the shadow of Mt Rainier. He was hopelessly sited in a valley. The only way he could get even snowy reception was to put a giant Channel Master 3617 in the front yard, on the grass, with little 6" chunks of 2X4 to hold it just off the dirt. Raise it a foot, nothing. He was picking up the ground wave. Point is, for him, at least he got something he considered watchable. Using todays HD signals, if they aren't above a minimum -15db, give or take, receivers just won't lock. When you're out in the sticks, or in an area that's bad, you're SOL. I have customers on West Sammamish Parkway, that if it weren't for cable, they wouldn't get anything, because they're also surrounded by trees. Had another site just south of Windermere on the water. Trees stopped satellite and over air.

Then we get in to distance and hills, like the south end of Hoods Canal, or Seabeck, Eatonville, etc. They do get some analog. They don't always have cable. Over air HD is a goner. If you can't afford satellite, sorry.

What would be great is if they could do some kind of ala carte for these people and allow them local channels, maybe just standard def like the SE channels on Direct, at a reduced price, or some special write off for the satellite companies. At least they would get something.

I'm expecting to get real busy next year !

Dan

Budget_HT

01-24-08, 11:02 PM

zyland

01-25-08, 04:20 AM

A friend of mine lives in Wenatchee and like many small towns and outlying areas, they rely on UHF repeaters to get free TV. These are typically financed by local operations or associations. Many cannot afford the digital transition so those areas will have NO free TV after the big switch. I'm not sure how many people realize this affects millions of Americans who are and will be "in the dark" literally and figuratively. Many, like my friend are retired on fixed incomes and can't afford to add a satellite dish or cable setup. Hell, they can hardly afford health insurance!
I know that some cable providers provide a basic service tier at a discounted rate to customers of a certain age. He could ask his local cable provider if he qualifies for the discounted rate.

quarque

01-25-08, 08:26 PM

I know that some cable providers provide a basic service tier at a discounted rate to customers of a certain age. He could ask his local cable provider if he qualifies for the discounted rate.
Thanks for the suggestion but I think he has already checked that. He does not watch that much TV so "no TV" would not be as much of a loss for him as it would be for me or others. I am more concerned with even older folks who rely on TV so much more because they are not active or have hobbies etc. This whole "switch" was not well thought out from the beginning. If I was on a fixed income out in the boonies I'd be furious.

Whidbey

01-25-08, 11:15 PM

...they rely on UHF repeaters to get free TV. These are typically financed by local operations or associations. Many cannot afford the digital transition so those areas will have NO free TV after the big switch.

It's too bad that the $40 coupons are readily available to anyone who wants (but doesn't necessarily need) one. Maybe if the government had a more strict way of qualifying households to get a coupon, some of the money saved could have been available for small broadcast operations to ease their digital conversion.

DanKurts

01-26-08, 12:45 AM

Dan,

You are home and posting early tonight. I usually don't "see you" until much later.

I may take you up on help with my OTA reception issues sometime soon if your offer stands. I have been very busy with family issues and the possibility of a job change.

I will contact you after I check a few things myself. I bought a new ladder recently since I loaned my old one out and it couldn't seem to find its way back. Now I can get on the roof where the antenna is located.

Budget_HT
Doing a lot of construction pre-wires lately, and when the Sun goes down, with no heat, we're home early. Takes a good hour in the shower to warm up!
(Love my tankless gas hot water heater !!)

Glad to help, just give me time to work it in the schedule. Just let me know when you're ready to play.
Dan

magillagorilla

01-26-08, 11:04 AM

Up at Crystal mountain for the weekend with a friend who has no hd feed. While I probably already know the answer, has anyone ever had success pulling in Seattle OTA feeds up here? TIA.

quarque

01-26-08, 12:00 PM

It's too bad that the $40 coupons are readily available to anyone who wants (but doesn't necessarily need) one. Maybe if the government had a more strict way of qualifying households to get a coupon, some of the money saved could have been available for small broadcast operations to ease their digital conversion.

Your reply made me wonder if perhaps some misunderstood my statement "many cannot afford..." - I was referring to the institutions that run the UHF repeaters. THEY are the ones that can't afford the 'switch' and will be turning off their transmitters. This is a separate (and disturbing) issue from the one involving viewers. The FCC and federal government did not forsee or have any plan for the failure of these poorly-financed local transmitters. So I seriuosly doubt any money saved by your suggestion would ever reach these institutions. Don't you just love the way the feds do things!

Netrat

01-26-08, 02:20 PM

I'm sure somewhere in this forum this info is available but if someone could post a link to current OTA Seattle channels it would be mucho appreciated.

DanKurts

01-26-08, 03:18 PM

Up at Crystal mountain for the weekend with a friend who has no hd feed. While I probably already know the answer, has anyone ever had success pulling in Seattle OTA feeds up here? TIA.

magillagorilla
Yes, but I couldn't tell you the exact location. It was off the 410 highway, back up in the hills on miles of dirt road, but had a view to the NW. If you get down in a valley, forget it. If you can get some Long/Lat numbers or a close location, might be able to figure it out.
Dan

Whidbey

01-26-08, 03:46 PM

I'm sure somewhere in this forum this info is available but if someone could post a link to current OTA Seattle channels it would be mucho appreciated.

http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm

pastiche

01-27-08, 12:34 AM

I'm sure somewhere in this forum this info is available but if someone could post a link to current OTA Seattle channels it would be mucho appreciated.

It's not got all of the technical information that Gord Lansdell's site lists (the one Whidbey mentioned), but here's an update of the one I posted a few months ago that includes all of the subchannels. Between the two, you should be able to find all the info you need. :)

Netrat

01-27-08, 06:20 PM

both links very hlpfl..thx all

Budget_HT

01-30-08, 03:12 AM

allen98311

01-30-08, 08:32 PM

Dish has KOMO, KING, and KIRO in HD. They still don't have KCPQ because Tribune wants them to also have KMYQ.

zyland

01-30-08, 08:49 PM

Dish has KOMO, KING, and KIRO in HD. They still don't have KCPQ because Tribune wants them to also have KMYQ.Doesn't DirecTV have KCPQ in HD but NOT KMYQ in HD?

quarque

01-30-08, 09:30 PM

rdn

01-30-08, 09:45 PM

Doesn't DirecTV have KCPQ in HD but NOT KMYQ in HD?

Yes, but it took quite a while. They have been carried since (I think) November, 2006. The negotiations were apparently at the corporate (Tribune) level. Since Tribune was recently sold, I suspect that the climate may have changed. OTOH, Dish had KOMO in HD a long time before DirecTV.

At least LIN doesn't own any stations here (AFAIK none of their stations is carried by satellite--they want lots of $$)

Budget_HT

01-30-08, 11:24 PM

Dave - there are no hills in the way to either Gold Mtn. or QA hill. So you probably have a strong reflection off something that is killing it. Best thing is to move the antenna around on a long cable and see if you can find a sweet spot. Also, you might try a variable attenuator right at the back of the receiver. And you may need something more directional than your dipole to weed out the reflections.

Thanks. We will be putting up an antenna for their house, but I wanted to be sure that aiming toward Gold Mountain would be worth it. There actually is a hill to the south, but it is hard to see just how high it goes.

The trailer antenna test was just easy to do. In the trailer I can't get any piece of 13-1 or analog 13. Moving the antenna around will likely help.

Thanks again.

DanKurts

01-31-08, 02:02 AM

I am helping a friend get started with HDTV. He lives north of Kingston, WA, near the intersection of NE Eglon Rd and Bonnie View NE, just east of Hansville Rd NE.

With my fifth wheel trailer parked there, using the Winegard powered, rotating dipole, at 14 feet above ground level, I can get, with some breakups, KING-DT, KIRO-DT, KCTS-DT, KSTW-DT, KONG-DT, KMYQ-DT. I cannot get KOMO-DT (in the known shadow for their HD transmitter antenna?) nor KCPQ-DT.

Dan K or quarque, does it look like there is any hope for KCPQ-DT? My friend has Dish Network satellite service, with an HD upgrade being installed this Thursday. But last I heard, Dish Network was not providing KCPQ-DT. They apparently will provide KOMO-DT via satellite.

There is no cable service available at his house.

Dave
There's nothing I can see in the way, and you're not in the KOMO shadow, but the polar plot shows that it's normally weaker there, anyway

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18937&rotate=0.00&p0=0.923&p10=0.976&p20=0.998&p25=1.000&p30=0.997&p40=0.984&p50=0.966&p60=0.951&p70=0.942&p80=0.937&p90=0.936&p100=0.937&p110=0.942&p120=0.951&p130=0.966&p140=0.984&p150=0.997&p155=1.000&p160=0.998&p170=0.976&p180=0.923&p190=0.838&p200=0.725&p210=0.593&p220=0.459&p230=0.345&p240=0.276&p250=0.261&p260=0.272&p270=0.280&p280=0.272&p290=0.261&p300=0.276&p310=0.345&p320=0.459&p330=0.593&p340=0.725&p350=0.838&p360=0.923&

Experience out there has been good, if you're not buried in trees.

I would bet that your trailer antenna is not that swift, very common. I've seen both satellite outfits use that Winegard RV flying wing thingy for their over air portion of installs, and the results have been very inconsistent. You could also have a dinged cable, common on crank'em up antenna's, that's putting a "hole" in the signal, just enough to give you grief. Also, those amplifiers are usually low buck quality, again giving you wierd results.

If you have decent clearing to the SE, try the 4221. It's wide enough for everything you want. Did a survey on Parcells road years ago, south of your site, and they all came in without much trouble. Site was in the trees a little bit, but you could see bits of the Sound to the SE.

Dan

Budget_HT

01-31-08, 08:48 AM

Dave
There's nothing I can see in the way, and you're not in the KOMO shadow, but the polar plot shows that it's normally weaker there, anyway

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18937&rotate=0.00&p0=0.923&p10=0.976&p20=0.998&p25=1.000&p30=0.997&p40=0.984&p50=0.966&p60=0.951&p70=0.942&p80=0.937&p90=0.936&p100=0.937&p110=0.942&p120=0.951&p130=0.966&p140=0.984&p150=0.997&p155=1.000&p160=0.998&p170=0.976&p180=0.923&p190=0.838&p200=0.725&p210=0.593&p220=0.459&p230=0.345&p240=0.276&p250=0.261&p260=0.272&p270=0.280&p280=0.272&p290=0.261&p300=0.276&p310=0.345&p320=0.459&p330=0.593&p340=0.725&p350=0.838&p360=0.923&

Experience out there has been good, if you're not buried in trees.

I would bet that your trailer antenna is not that swift, very common. I've seen both satellite outfits use that Winegard RV flying wing thingy for their over air portion of installs, and the results have been very inconsistent. You could also have a dinged cable, common on crank'em up antenna's, that's putting a "hole" in the signal, just enough to give you grief. Also, those amplifiers are usually low buck quality, again giving you wierd results.

If you have decent clearing to the SE, try the 4221. It's wide enough for everything you want. Did a survey on Parcells road years ago, south of your site, and they all came in without much trouble. Site was in the trees a little bit, but you could see bits of the Sound to the SE.

Dan

Thanks Dan.

Sounds like when we get an antenna up in the air we should be okay.

This site shows KCPQ-DT to be a pretty weak signal there:
http://www.tvfool.com/

eiger

01-31-08, 10:42 AM

DanKurts

02-01-08, 01:27 AM

Thanks Dan.

Sounds like when we get an antenna up in the air we should be okay.

This site shows KCPQ-DT to be a pretty weak signal there:
http://www.tvfool.com/

Dave

Go to a foolish site, get a .....
I've yet to see one of these sites that were very accurate, other than direction. On site with a meter says it all.

Kingston and surrounding area is hammered with ch13 signal. Had a heck of a time keeping it out of the old analog system I put in years ago at Silverdale, Magnolia, before HD was on air. Other jobs around Kitsap county and north to the floating bridge, all very strong. Only when you're behind a hill, obviously, is there weak signal.

Dan

DanKurts

02-01-08, 01:35 AM

Hi All,

First time poster in this section.

I have a Samsung 1080p DLP that is about a year old. Not sure what kind of OTA options it has. I've toyed with the idea of picking up an atennda to see what kind of reception and local HDTV broadcasts I could pick up.

Details -

I'm in the Northgate area. 98133. Meridian and Northgate Way to be exact.

I put in my zip on atennaweb and it only came up with a few channels in yellow. So my questions are

1) Is it worth it since I already have Comsucks HD Cable package?
2) SuperBowl. Will I be able to pick up the Superbowl with an atenna that has better PQ than Comcast?
3) What antennas are good for my area? I live in a condo, so mounting on the roof probably not an option. I have an attic, but don't really feel like running cable through my wall down to my TV either.

Any feedback and help is great since I'm a total noob when it comes to this stuff.

Thanks!

eiger
The area is okay for reception. Can be a little tricky, if you're behind a building or trees. If your balcony is on an upper floor and south, you might have decent reception, or facing west might still work for the main channels.
Since you already have the HD package, I would stay with that. You're getting everything that's available. The cable HD local is very close to what an antenna will do. Most people can't see the difference unless it's pointed out and you have a good TV.
Dan

Budget_HT

02-01-08, 02:32 AM

Dave

Go to a foolish site, get a .....
I've yet to see one of these sites that were very accurate, other than direction. On site with a meter says it all.

Kingston and surrounding area is hammered with ch13 signal. Had a heck of a time keeping it out of the old analog system I put in years ago at Silverdale, Magnolia, before HD was on air. Other jobs around Kitsap county and north to the floating bridge, all very strong. Only when you're behind a hill, obviously, is there weak signal.

Dan
Thanks Dan.

I think we will try a 4221 as you recommended earlier. They just had their Dish HD upgrade installed today.

Even though their address is Kingston, they are way north, almost to Point No Point.

seatacboy

02-01-08, 01:42 PM

zyland

02-01-08, 03:57 PM

The Magnavox TB100MW9 CECB has shown up at the Marysville Supercenter and the Renton Wal-Mart. Unfortunately, I bought this device Wednesday but it would not power up. Returned to a different Wal-Mart which didn't have the CECBs in stock. Today I bought another TB100 at another Wal Mart, it also won't power up. Magnavox/Funai customer service says my unit is defective and simply needs to be returned. Darn it!

Magnavox TB100MW9 at walmart http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8283870

RCA DTA800 at walmart http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8343230

both retail for $49.87 (neither available online, check availability at store) Both are eligible for the $40 coupon but only at the time of purchase. Both appear to be very bare-bones. RF input, RF output, composite video + stereo output. No S-video output (optional in the NTIA eligibility requirements) Now if we can only find one that actually powers up. :)

Hey if it turns out that the model that you have chosen is a lemon, do you get your $40 coupon back?

eiger

02-01-08, 08:20 PM

eiger
The area is okay for reception. Can be a little tricky, if you're behind a building or trees. If your balcony is on an upper floor and south, you might have decent reception, or facing west might still work for the main channels.
Since you already have the HD package, I would stay with that. You're getting everything that's available. The cable HD local is very close to what an antenna will do. Most people can't see the difference unless it's pointed out and you have a good TV.
Dan

Cool. Thanks for the advice. Enjoy the weekend.

DanKurts

02-02-08, 03:20 AM

Magnavox TB100MW9 at walmart http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8283870

RCA DTA800 at walmart http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8343230

both retail for $49.87 (neither available online, check availability at store) Both are eligible for the $40 coupon but only at the time of purchase. Both appear to be very bare-bones. RF input, RF output, composite video + stereo output. No S-video output (optional in the NTIA eligibility requirements) Now if we can only find one that actually powers up. :)

Hey if it turns out that the model that you have chosen is a lemon, do you get your $40 coupon back?

seatacboy & zyland
I can understand people wanting to be the first on the block to have a new toy, and the price is very tempting. However, what's the rush to watch 480i standard video? Wait a while for the product to sort itself out. There's been no reviews as to how well they work, or as noted above, not work....
Regular TV is still on until next year. If you want a digital tuner, now, then spend a bit more and get the Samsung H260. It puts out 480i and all the HD resolutions, will be ready when you upgrade the TV to HD, and is now $40 off the price! Mines been bulletproof, awesome reception capability, has about every type of audio & video output, except ch3, and has been out for a year.

Meanwhile, in a month or so, when they start selling product that stays powered up, I'll check one out and let you know how they fare.
Dan

Whidbey

02-02-08, 11:59 AM

seatacboy & zyland
I can understand people wanting to be the first on the block to have a new toy, and the price is very tempting. However, what's the rush to watch 480i standard video? Wait a while for the product to sort itself out. There's been no reviews as to how well they work, or as noted above, not work....
Regular TV is still on until next year. If you want a digital tuner, now, then spend a bit more and get the Samsung H260. It puts out 480i and all the HD resolutions, will be ready when you upgrade the TV to HD, and is now $40 off the price! Mines been bulletproof, awesome reception capability, has about every type of audio & video output, except ch3, and has been out for a year.

Meanwhile, in a month or so, when they start selling product that stays powered up, I'll check one out and let you know how they fare.
Dan

Dan - I'm not sure if you meant that the 260 box is now $40 cheaper due to the coupon... Just to be clear, the 260 is not covered under the "Coupon Eligible Converter Box" program.

I've been waiting for my coupon to show, but I'm pretty sure they are not being sent out until the 17th of this month. I want a couple of CECB's, one for my VCR, and one for my garage TV. The 260 will remain my primary box.

seatacboy

02-02-08, 12:27 PM

DanKurts: where locally can I buy a Samsung H260 for the discounted price (i.e. less than $130)? It may be worth the extra money in that its OTA performance is well known, and it also Clear QAM. I admit my eagerness was to be a CECB "early adopter" (even limited to 480 SD), particularly to test whether I'd receive dependable DTV OTA at my location in a condominium complex near the airport. Having two of the Magnavox CECBs "dead on arrival" raised concerns about mediocre quality control at Magnavox/Funai.

Have to also admit, I wanted to see for myself if the Magnavox CECB would provide (unadvertised) Clear QAM.

Whidbey

02-02-08, 01:16 PM

I wanted to see for myself if the Magnavox CECB would provide (unadvertised) Clear QAM.

I'd like to as well. I went to a friends house last night who has analog cable. I couldn't believe how bad the picture quality was. If I can get my hands on a CECB that gets QAM, I might force him to get one too. :)

seatacboy

02-02-08, 01:29 PM

I'd like to as well. I went to a friends house last night who has analog cable. I couldn't believe how bad the picture quality was. If I can get my hands on a CECB that gets QAM, I might force him to get one too. :)
Based on questionable quality control - having bought two defective units at local Wal-Mart stores - I cannot recommend the Magnavox TB100MW9. Consumers deserve better quality control.

It's worth waiting another two to three weeks for more CECBs to show up in stores, and for the $40 rebate coupons to start arriving...or for a bargain price on the "big kahuna" Samsung 260.

quarque

02-02-08, 04:24 PM

Whidbey

02-02-08, 05:20 PM

I recently bought a real bargain at Costco: Sceptre 1080p 42" LCD for $899. What impresses me the most, even though I rarely use it, is the OTA tuner. I have an old RS bowtie laying on the floor behind the TV and when I scanned for local OTA it found EVERYTHING in the area. When I compare HD OTA with the same show on Comcast the difference is fairly obvious. OTA is clearer and has fewer artifacts than the Comcast equivalent. I used to have dropouts on my Samsung box even with a 4221 on the roof. This Sceptre TV has yet to have any dropouts even on the weakest stations. Too bad the sale has ended at Costco.

Qustion on the CECB converter boxes: isn't the minimum requirement to just handle OTA 8VSB signals. I see people mentioning that they are going to buy one for use on cable but I don't think the cheap $50 boxes do QAM - or am I wrong?

That TV seems to go on sale quite often at Costco. A friend of mine bought his last year for $1000 and he's been pleased with it. It's encouraging to hear about it's tuner performance, maybe I'll give it a closer look when I go to buy.

Regarding the CECB's - Your correct in what you say. The boxes aren't intended for QAM, but alot of people are speculating that some might be able to decode QAM anyway. If one of them does and word gets out, who wouldn't buy one rather than paying their cable co $$ to rent a digital box for an analog TV.
See these links for more info:
The chip being used in the RCA CECB:
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...28012008-1.htm

About the chip:
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/3543-PB04-R.pdf

I can see where some will draw the conclusion that the RCA will decode QAM, but I won't believe it until someone plugs one in and confirms.

NJ Bulldog

02-02-08, 08:12 PM

NJ Bulldog

02-02-08, 08:19 PM

pastiche

02-02-08, 09:08 PM

Regarding the CECB's - Your correct in what you say. The boxes aren't intended for QAM, but alot of people are speculating that some might be able to decode QAM anyway. If one of them does and word gets out, who wouldn't buy one rather than paying their cable co $$ to rent a digital box for an analog TV.

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that the CECBs will decode nothing more and nothing less than an 8VSB signal, and only on OTA channels 2 through 69.

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm

That said, here's a very similar set-top to the CECBs that does do QAM.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882107064

I have the previous iteration (the 1000, not the 900), and am very pleased with it. It does exactly what I wanted it to: tunes QAM on an old analogue set.

Whidbey

02-02-08, 11:01 PM

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that the CECBs will decode nothing more and nothing less than an 8VSB signal, and only on OTA channels 2 through 69.

You're not wrong. The converter boxes are only supposed to decode 8VSB, and that's it. What people are speculating however, is that manufacturers will not bother to block the QAM decoding ability of the chip used to save costs.

While I think it would be nice if the CECB provided QAM decoding, my bet is none will, even if the onboard chip suggests otherwise. If they are built anything like my Samsung DTB-H260F, a separate coax input is required for cable vs OTA, but that's just my guess.

DanKurts

02-03-08, 05:21 PM

Quarque, would you mind plugging in my location? I was thinking of a 30 ft above ground installation using CM 4228 for VHF and a 91XG for UHF. I was also going to get a rotator and preamp(s). If my signal is okay and you agree with my antenna choice, can you explain how to mix the two output into one input before the groundblock. Location: 29912 75th Ave SOuth Roy, WA 98580. This is brand new to me so any advice would be great. Go Giants!!
Thanks.

NJ Bulldog
You're in a pretty good spot. There's only a very slight rise to the north, about a 1/4 miles worth, but after that, you're line-O-sight. The minor thing to watch out for is any trees near you up to 288th. Because you're so far away, 45 miles, they could affect things in a hurry. Location of the antenna might get touchy. Don't anchor anything down without some testing, first. Definitely want a preamp. A Channel Master 7777 would be best. If you only want HD reception, forget the Winegard. I have a long standing bias against the brand because of the mickey mouse proprietary balun connector. I know some stations UHF channels are heading for VHF freq's, (don't get me started!) but they might work well enough with the bow tie style antenna, like the 4228. Only a real world test will tell, and we can't do that now. Just wait, cross that bridge when you get there. Don't worry too much about height. Sometimes it's better to just get it above the roof, and shoot under the tree canopy. The 4228 has a fair amount of windload, and you get plenty of that around, I know. A rotor would be nice, but it needs to be mounted properly. Again, I would try it without, first. The 4228 has a fairly wide reception path, and might just work without one.
Forget the 91xg yagi, and the other Euro styles like it. I've already been there. The Channel Master 4248 was far better. Since I hear they're not making the exact same one, I would be suspect of the successor. (For the record, the Antennacraft MXU59 is my second choice for a good narrow yagi.)In any case, though, I would bet the bow tie style 4228 will be better for you. The yagi styles might be far too narrow. You would definitely need a rotor for one.
If you have questions, call me anytime. I don't plan to be too busy watching the game, just the commercials. Don't give a rats about either team!
Dan
206-794-3993

DanKurts

02-03-08, 05:24 PM

Dan - I'm not sure if you meant that the 260 box is now $40 cheaper due to the coupon... Just to be clear, the 260 is not covered under the "Coupon Eligible Converter Box" program.

I've been waiting for my coupon to show, but I'm pretty sure they are not being sent out until the 17th of this month. I want a couple of CECB's, one for my VCR, and one for my garage TV. The 260 will remain my primary box.

Whidbey
Thanks for the info. Shame. It's a great box.
Did you ever get the bearing setup fixed on the rotor? I want you to post a pix of it for others to use. It's a great install!
Dan

DanKurts

02-03-08, 05:34 PM

I recently bought a real bargain at Costco: Sceptre 1080p 42" LCD for $899. What impresses me the most, even though I rarely use it, is the OTA tuner. I have an old RS bowtie laying on the floor behind the TV and when I scanned for local OTA it found EVERYTHING in the area. When I compare HD OTA with the same show on Comcast the difference is fairly obvious. OTA is clearer and has fewer artifacts than the Comcast equivalent. I used to have dropouts on my Samsung box even with a 4221 on the roof. This Sceptre TV has yet to have any dropouts even on the weakest stations. Too bad the sale has ended at Costco.

Qustion on the CECB converter boxes: isn't the minimum requirement to just handle OTA 8VSB signals. I see people mentioning that they are going to buy one for use on cable but I don't think the cheap $50 boxes do QAM - or am I wrong?

quarque
Ain't that the way it works?! The good tuner on a so-so TV. You would think Samsung would use the same great tuner from the H260 in their TV's, but no. All the ones I've seen are just average. Go figure.
As for the QAM, I would doubt the new CECB's would tune it. There are lots of products out there that have chipsets with more capability than being used. Who knows. Some bright over caffeinated person might just find a cheap hack for one!
Dan

Whidbey

02-04-08, 12:15 AM

Whidbey
Did you ever get the bearing setup fixed on the rotor? I want you to post a pix of it for others to use. It's a great install!
Dan

Not yet, but I will post pics when I do. Another thing I need to focus on is getting a better ground wire set up. The best route for me will follow a gutter drain pipe to the ground. Is there a product out there that will attach to the drain pipe and route the wire down or should I just zip-tie the wire to the drain pipe?

Also - any issues with having a ground block between the pre-amp and the power injector?

NJ Bulldog

02-04-08, 12:19 PM

NJ Bulldog
You're in a pretty good spot. There's only a very slight rise to the north, about a 1/4 miles worth, but after that, you're line-O-sight. The minor thing to watch out for is any trees near you up to 288th. Because you're so far away, 45 miles, they could affect things in a hurry. Location of the antenna might get touchy. Don't anchor anything down without some testing, first. Definitely want a preamp. A Channel Master 7777 would be best. If you only want HD reception, forget the Winegard. I have a long standing bias against the brand because of the mickey mouse proprietary balun connector. I know some stations UHF channels are heading for VHF freq's, (don't get me started!) but they might work well enough with the bow tie style antenna, like the 4228. Only a real world test will tell, and we can't do that now. Just wait, cross that bridge when you get there. Don't worry too much about height. Sometimes it's better to just get it above the roof, and shoot under the tree canopy. The 4228 has a fair amount of windload, and you get plenty of that around, I know. A rotor would be nice, but it needs to be mounted properly. Again, I would try it without, first. The 4228 has a fairly wide reception path, and might just work without one.
Forget the 91xg yagi, and the other Euro styles like it. I've already been there. The Channel Master 4248 was far better. Since I hear they're not making the exact same one, I would be suspect of the successor. (For the record, the Antennacraft MXU59 is my second choice for a good narrow yagi.)In any case, though, I would bet the bow tie style 4228 will be better for you. The yagi styles might be far too narrow. You would definitely need a rotor for one.
If you have questions, call me anytime. I don't plan to be too busy watching the game, just the commercials. Don't give a rats about either team!
Dan
206-794-3993

Dan, thanks for the reply and the advice. As you know, we have a great deal of 100' firs around my area but I may have lucked out. According to CEA, I need to point the antenna 353* for ABC, CBS and NBC high def. I have a 20* clear sightline on that bearing for about 1000 yds and then there is a line of those tall firs. With that in mind, would you think the higher the mount the better? I don't have my precise elevation, but I can get it if that would help.
The commercials were okay, but that game rocked. Plus, I got to work today and I won $75 on the game board:D

DanKurts

02-05-08, 01:26 AM

Not yet, but I will post pics when I do. Another thing I need to focus on is getting a better ground wire set up. The best route for me will follow a gutter drain pipe to the ground. Is there a product out there that will attach to the drain pipe and route the wire down or should I just zip-tie the wire to the drain pipe?

Also - any issues with having a ground block between the pre-amp and the power injector?

Whidbey
You can zip tie the ground wire to the drain pipe, or staple it to the house, if you want. Ground block can be between the amp and preamp. While you're at it, ground the mast and mount, too. I usually run the ground wire around one of the bolts on a fixed clamp (obviously not on the rotor's moving bits), add a washer and second nut, and then run the remaining wire to the block, mounted nearby. The block doesn't actually have to be mounted, you can have it hanging by the wire, as long as it's not blowing around in the wind.

The reason for grounding the mounting hardware is the cable only grounds the wire, and not the mast and passive parts of the antenna. The idea is to bleed off any static, and have all the metal antenna bits at ground potential, literally, so if there's any lightning building up, it will want to strike at something above ground, like a tree top that's wet, or metal tower, etc.
Dan

DanKurts

02-05-08, 01:35 AM

Dan, thanks for the reply and the advice. As you know, we have a great deal of 100' firs around my area but I may have lucked out. According to CEA, I need to point the antenna 353* for ABC, CBS and NBC high def. I have a 20* clear sightline on that bearing for about 1000 yds and then there is a line of those tall firs. With that in mind, would you think the higher the mount the better? I don't have my precise elevation, but I can get it if that would help.
The commercials were okay, but that game rocked. Plus, I got to work today and I won $75 on the game board:D

NJ Bulldog
No sense in trying to go over the trees, they're way too tall. As I mentioned, anything above your roof, 5 ft or so, will be fine, as long you clear any close obstacles, like your neighbor's house or a building. You're elevation is about 450ft. The towers are about 1000ft above sea level. That means, at 45 miles, you're angle above the horizon is fairly low. That's why it might work better by shooting under the trees. This is not that exact a science when it comes to location.
You might find things will work better by misaiming, up to 20 degrees or so. The only way to tell is by trying it out.
I think it's going to work out pretty good.
Dan

fred2

02-08-08, 01:22 PM

DanKurts

02-09-08, 02:17 AM

I live pretty much in "upper" Wallingford near Zoka and Tangletown so thunder and lightning are rare but not unheard (pun?) of occurrences.

I have been pretty much ignoring the issue of lightning after putting up an outside antenna. But last week I got a 10 foot mast from Radio Shack which has raised my antenna about 5 feet higher than it was. Still below my house peak and my chimney. And some nearby trees and a neighbor's antenna is higher. Also, my chimney has a gas insert so its "caps" and intake/exhaust pipes are now metal (aluminum???).

So I need to worry about doing some kind of protection? And being completely new to this, if so what?

I am also thinking of adding another 5foot or 10 foot section to raise the antenna as I still try to bring in that elusive Canadian (28, is it?) channel which lies north of my roof peak. That would raise the antenna to a more prominent position. Lightning then??

I probably should anchor the darn thing to my chimney but I'm not one for heights and my extension ladder is probably not that long!!! :D

Thanks all.

fred2
If you're trying to get KTBC ch28 from Tacoma, forget it. It's very weak, and below your line of sight, with hills in the way. If you're getting all the others you wanted, leave it at that height and secure the mast.

To ground the antenna you use a ground block mounted on the outside of the house
http://www.tvantenna.com/products/installation/grounding.html
and then run a #10 wire from there to a ground rod
http://www.tvantenna.com/products/installation/grounding.html
below the antenna. That should be goood enough for what you have.
Dan

fred2

02-09-08, 10:47 AM

Dan:

First, THANKS for your time and help.

I guess the station I might be referencing is the one from Canada, whichever that one is? Maybe under old terminology, it was 12? But you may be right - I should be happy if I can get 13.1 without lots of breakup. That one appears to be most elusive, particularly, during stormy weather (this WHOLE WINTER! ;))

Again, thanks.

seatacboy

02-11-08, 01:26 PM

DanKurts

02-12-08, 12:55 AM

Using the Wallingford US Post Office at 1329 N 47th ST, Zip 98103 as an address:

Tacoma's KBTC analog 28 and KBTC-DT 27 are maybes at that location. 2-Edge path, -95.6 dBM signal for DT (10 dBM less than for KBTC analog).

Bellingham's KVOS analog 12 and KVOS-DT 35 are similar : 2-Edge path, -103.1 dBM for DT with adjacent-channel interference (again, 10dBM less signal than for KVOS analog). KVOS analog signal generally would be a viewable fringe NTSC signal in the Seattle area except for powerful adjacent-channel interference from KSTW and KCPQ. KVOS DT doesn't have quite the same interference problem.

Is KVOS' Canadian-targeted programming and advertising the station you were talking about, or KBTC (PBS)?

seatacboy
KVOS is not really much on Canadian programming, but does cover Vancouver and Victoria. I though you were referring to KBTC.

Not sure how you're arriving at your reception info, but it's not real.
Ch28 KBTC is behind Queen Anne Hill for you. It's also got one of the weakest transmitters. Analog might come in, grainy and ghosty, but you need to have a minimum amount of digital signal to get the tuner to lock on. Anythings possible, but it would take a lot of fussing with a very good combination of tuner, antenna, preamp and traps to keep out other signals in order to get it.

KVOS analog is difficult where you are for the adjacent channel reasons you mentioned. The signal levels for KVOS digital at your location are extremely weak. Part of the problem is the 74 mile distance and you're behind the hill to the NW. Add a little curvature from Mother Earth and there's not much left. Adjacent channel problems in the digital world is not the same, but strong channels like 36 (KSTW) and 31 (KONG) can make weaker channels tough to lock on to. The antenna would also need to be on a rotor or a separate antenna used for that one channel.

All in all, either would be a real challenge.
Dan

seatacboy

02-12-08, 10:18 AM

@DanKurts: I relied on the TV Fool database to guesstimate Fred2's reception. You are correct, though, that QA Hill weakens KBTC more than TV Fool's figures show.

By contrast, KBTC is one of only three strong LOS signals at my residence east of Seatac Airport (along with KCPQ and KTBW). There's also a fourth LOS signal, K54AO (DT 26) which comes in at -78.5dBM and appears to be a retransmitter of KIRO-DT. I haven't tried to pick it up yet.

Whidbey

02-12-08, 12:04 PM

DanKurts

02-12-08, 09:36 PM

Repost from another forum - I didn't get much response there.

I acquired this antenna a while back for free. I had never really tried it out until the other day. I hooked it up to the TV in my garage, held it up, and to my surprise it brought in some analog high VHF (>8) channels and UHF channels very clear. All analog, I'm waiting for my coupon converter box to test digital.
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sd536573bh6.jpg

I know it looks like a CM 4221, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

Whidbey
It's not a 4221, but it's a great copy. Essentially looks the same except for the back screen. It would be virtually identical in performance. I'm not surprised it brought in analog. It doesn't take much to see a picture. The real test will be what you get digitally. Big difference.
Let us know what you get.
Dan

Whidbey

02-12-08, 11:03 PM

Whidbey
It's not a 4221, but it's a great copy. Essentially looks the same except for the back screen. It would be virtually identical in performance. I'm not surprised it brought in analog. It doesn't take much to see a picture. The real test will be what you get digitally. Big difference.
Let us know what you get.
Dan

So far, the biggest surprise was how well it gets PBS Ch 9. Pretty much crystal clear with no ghosting. This is from inside my garage, at maybe 3 feet above the dirt to the south (my house is on a slope). My 4228 on the roof can't do that.

I'll test the digitals once I get the CECB for the garage.

seatacboy

02-12-08, 11:52 PM

Whidbey: With that antenna up in Marysville, do you receive some reception on analog 8 (CHAN Vancouver) and analog 10 (CKVU Victoria)?

DanKurts

02-13-08, 12:38 AM

So far, the biggest surprise was how well it gets PBS Ch 9. Pretty much crystal clear with no ghosting. This is from inside my garage, at maybe 3 feet above the dirt to the south (my house is on a slope). My 4228 on the roof can't do that.

I'll test the digitals once I get the CECB for the garage.

Whidbey
Again, no surprise when comparing the 4221 & 4228. There's a lot of yadda-yadda woof-woof theory as to why, but bottom line is 98% of the time the 4221 outperforms the 4228. I've sold hundreds of 4221's, one 4228 and it was in Santa Rosa, Calif. Not to say the 4228 doesn't work, but most of the time I've tried one, the 4221 worked better. That's why my test 4228 hangs in the garage, and a 4221 rides in the van.
You're obviously in a good spot to make it work that well. Also, there's a wierd thing that's not too reliable, but sometimes works. Stand the 4221 on the ground, with it resting against you, or something so it's vertical, and point it as you did holding it up. Check for HD. You might get a ground wave that will work better. Learned this one years ago doing HD surveys. When the ground or grass dries out it changes, but can give some pretty good results. Another go-figure thing.
Dan

Whidbey

02-13-08, 09:14 AM

Whidbey: With that antenna up in Marysville, do you receive some reception on analog 8 (CHAN Vancouver) and analog 10 (CKVU Victoria)?

Yes, but not quite as clear as with the 4228.

rdn

02-15-08, 07:05 PM

DanKurts

02-16-08, 01:37 AM

There are some recent changes at http://www.tvfool.com which show both current and post-digital-transition signal levels (I don't know how long it has been this way). My predicted received levels for KCTS and KSTW will be lower than they are presently, while KCPQ will be stronger (probably still too weak, however). KOMO is shown as having higher transmitter power after 2/2009, even though it won't be changing to its analog frequency.

Another station shown is K68DL on channel 8 (virtual 68.1). It is low power but shows as a fairly strong signal, although none of my receivers will detect it. Is this one for real?

Bob

Bob
FCC site shows it being on top of Capital Hill in Seattle, looks like it's on the KMYQ tower. Shows same Lat/Lon, polar plot runs North/South,

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=17224&rotate=90.00&p0=0.720&p10=0.740&p20=0.780&p30=0.840&p40=0.900&p50=0.950&p60=0.990&p70=1.000&p80=0.970&p90=0.920&p100=0.820&p110=0.700&p120=0.560&p130=0.410&p140=0.300&p150=0.240&p160=0.250&p170=0.290&p180=0.300&p190=0.290&p200=0.260&p210=0.250&p220=0.310&p230=0.430&p240=0.570&p250=0.700&p260=0.820&p270=0.910&p280=0.970&p290=0.990&p300=0.990&p310=0.960&p320=0.910&p330=0.830&p340=0.790&p350=0.740&p360=0.720&

channel 8 is under construction permit. Ch68 has 15kw. Owned by Three Angels Broadcasting, whoever they are.... I've never seen it come up on a scan around the Seattle area, never looked for it either.
There are a lot of repeaters around the area for FM, some for KIRO TV analog, small colleges, trade schools, etc, even shopping channels running digital (I would love to see the document they submitted to the FCC on why the public needed them!)
Dan

fred2

02-16-08, 01:23 PM

Seatacboy: Thanks for the analysis. I think that I may leave well enough alone (for the moment!) Of course, leaves are off trees for the most part so I don't know how well Channel 13.x will do once they leaf out again. But I was getting pixelation recently and the added 5 or 6 feet of height seems to have cleared that up.

And I was originally referring to the Canadian channel just for possible additional content (if anything on TV can be considered to have content!! (G))

I'm starting to think that since this place needs a new roof, I might have access to the attic again and might just try installing the antenna in there (as long as I don't go for a metal roof!). That will get it out of the weather and wind.

rdiotte

02-19-08, 07:01 PM

rdiotte
Thanks for the correction and update. Curious as to why you don't just radiate equally in all directions. Also, why use the old ch11 frequency when everyone is already dialed in on ch 36? A lot of people have small UHF antennas and don't want a big VHF one. (Even a small 5 element high band is about 5ft long) I constantly get install requests to hide the antenna as much as possible. A small high band VHF is much tougher to do. You can cobble up an end mount to hide it on the side of a house, or under an eave, but if you need to aim it something other than right angles to the house, it's a challenge. Obviously there's some rational reason for the change, but did they consider how many people are going to have problems? And how many are just going to say forget it and watch what they have already and not bother with ch11?
Keep the updates coming. It's great to have the info.
Thanks
Dan

Sorry I don't get back here on the forum to address questions in a timely manner....busy planning for the NTSC sunset!!
Regarding going back to high VHF channels after the transition...we had discussions with the other stations in town as to what they were going to do. As it turns out...3 significant stations here are going back to the high VHF band. The biggest reason...cost of operation. my 12.5Kw ERP means I only need to push 720 watts of power up my transmission line to make ERP coverage. right now it takes over 40Kw to run the current ch.11 & 36 operation. AND....my DTV transmitter will be solid state, no expensive tubes. With the terrain around here...the high VHF channels will travel far with little power. As receiver chipsets get better and better, having indoor or smaller antennas for high VHF will be the norm. Also...84% of viewers in this market are already on Cable or DTH satellite.
As to why we have a "shaped" signal...it's due to the geography...we have mountains to the east and west...sasquatch doesn't watch TV...so to increase efficiency we pattern the signal to be almost due north and slightly SW to maximize the signal in the population corridors. And...with digital signals being affected by reflections...we figure the less bouncing of the signal off the mountains the better for people living in the foothills.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW-TV/DT;)

Whidbey

02-19-08, 10:24 PM

I just got done watching an interesting program on PBS regarding the digital switch and how it will affect those who rely on OTA for their TV. Very informative, but I think PBS missed something. It was being broadcast on PBS HD (9.5), not the regular station (9.1).

It was nice of PBS to let those of us who already have a digital tuner know what we will have to do before 2/17/09!

DanKurts

02-20-08, 01:11 AM

Sorry I don't get back here on the forum to address questions in a timely manner....busy planning for the NTSC sunset!!
Regarding going back to high VHF channels after the transition...we had discussions with the other stations in town as to what they were going to do. As it turns out...3 significant stations here are going back to the high VHF band. The biggest reason...cost of operation. my 12.5Kw ERP means I only need to push 720 watts of power up my transmission line to make ERP coverage. right now it takes over 40Kw to run the current ch.11 & 36 operation. AND....my DTV transmitter will be solid state, no expensive tubes. With the terrain around here...the high VHF channels will travel far with little power. As receiver chipsets get better and better, having indoor or smaller antennas for high VHF will be the norm. Also...84% of viewers in this market are already on Cable or DTH satellite.
As to why we have a "shaped" signal...it's due to the geography...we have mountains to the east and west...sasquatch doesn't watch TV...so to increase efficiency we pattern the signal to be almost due north and slightly SW to maximize the signal in the population corridors. And...with digital signals being affected by reflections...we figure the less bouncing of the signal off the mountains the better for people living in the foothills.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW-TV/DT;)

RDiotte
Thanks for the info.
You might want to think about enlarging the pattern to the east, similar to KOMO's "D" shape. KING has a similar shape to yours, and people in Samammish, Duvall, etc, have a far tougher time getting it. My meter shows a good 10db down for them. Yours about the same. I can understand the cost benefits of VHF, specially when you're only hitting 16% of the market.
Still, I'm not looking forward to some unhappy customers.....
Are you planning on any sub channels in the cutover?
Dan

rdiotte

02-20-08, 03:38 PM

RDiotte
Thanks for the info.
You might want to think about enlarging the pattern to the east, similar to KOMO's "D" shape. KING has a similar shape to yours, and people in Samammish, Duvall, etc, have a far tougher time getting it. My meter shows a good 10db down for them. Yours about the same. I can understand the cost benefits of VHF, specially when you're only hitting 16% of the market.
Still, I'm not looking forward to some unhappy customers.....
Are you planning on any sub channels in the cutover?
Dan

Actually, we're going to be using our ch.11 antenna that was put up in late 2004 for our digital ch.11...you will see that it is more broad for fill in to the east and west than our ch.36 antenna was. compare the two plots I linked to on the FCC site in my #6119 thread and you'll see how the VHF antenna has more fill in to the East especially.
Regarding multi channel broadcasting....we're owned by CBS and as such we've discussed a second channel...but....we haven't seen a programming cost model that fits, yet. Also...CBS/CW is pushing QUALITY for its' HD programming and there still appears to be compromise to the HD channel bit rate when adding on other SD type signals to the stream. I believe datacasting, which is a lower bit rate than even SD will have a better business model potential for stations like ours.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW-TV/DT:D

mikemikeb

02-20-08, 04:40 PM

Also...CBS/CW is pushing QUALITY for its' HD programming and there still appears to be compromise to the HD channel bit rate when adding on other SD type signals to the stream. I believe datacasting, which is a lower bit rate than even SD will have a better business model potential for stations like ours.In fact, CBS stations are supposed to be implementing TV Guide's new digital-delivery-based 7-day EPG within the year.

Budget_HT

02-20-08, 10:15 PM

In fact, CBS stations are supposed to be implementing TV Guide's new digital-delivery-based 7-day EPG within the year.
It will be interesting to see if this CBS-owned but not CBS network station ends up carrying the new digital guide data for TV Guide.

quarque

02-20-08, 10:21 PM

...
Regarding multi channel broadcasting....we're owned by CBS and as such we've discussed a second channel...but....we haven't seen a programming cost model that fits, yet. Also...CBS/CW is pushing QUALITY for its' HD programming and there still appears to be compromise to the HD channel bit rate when adding on other SD type signals to the stream. I believe datacasting, which is a lower bit rate than even SD will have a better business model potential for stations like ours.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW-TV/DT:D

You mean someone actually gives a **** about Quality?!?! Cheers to CBS if this is true. We are all so tired of low quality HD coming out of some stations because of sub-channels. Sports broadcasts really suffer. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of HD IMHO.

quarque

02-20-08, 10:24 PM

mikemikeb

02-20-08, 11:34 PM

It's not irony; it's sarcasm. Actually, the station unintentionally was ironic; the poster was intentionally sarcastic. Oh, never mind....

quarque

02-21-08, 10:29 PM

I was talking about PBS, not Whidbey.

rdn

02-23-08, 01:09 PM

I have had several people tell me that only KING and KONG have the local news broadcasts in HD, while the others (KOMO, KIRO, KCPQ are upconverted. However, KOMO's broadcasts look practically as sharp. Some of the remote feeds appear to be lower resolution, which I would expect. On the other hand KIRO's 16:9 news definitely looks like it is upconverted. I'm not complaining, just curious. 16:9 always looks better to me than pillarboxed (the local content on KCTS 9.1 shows how good even 480i can look if done right).

brownnet

02-23-08, 04:33 PM

KOMO is produced in digital widescreen SD, which is comparable to DVD quality. When broadcast on the HD transmitter, the picture is pretty impressive, and to most people difficult to tell the difference between that and full "real HD".

pwtwa

02-25-08, 12:53 AM

What is the actual transmission power of KOMO-DT today? I have read several different figures?

Kelly From KOMO

02-25-08, 12:34 PM

What is the actual transmission power of KOMO-DT today? I have read several different figures?

KOMO-DT operates at 810kW ERP on Channel 38

mike84

02-25-08, 02:55 PM

seatacboy

02-25-08, 04:41 PM

mike84: which neighborhood are you in?

mike84

02-25-08, 05:39 PM

south 25th & g st tacoma,wa

zyland

02-25-08, 09:08 PM

went out and got a converter box 2 weeks ago and it works great. really good tuner. picking up most channels well. however ch 13 is still an issue. if any of the experts could please get back to me or possibly come to tacoma please let me know. or you can give me a call at 253-273-5355 or 253-627-5492

thank you
mike
Can you give us a review? Which model? Which features? Cost? Any issues with the coupon? Where did you buy it? Does it support S-video? What is the EPG (Electronic Program Guide) like? Does it give you options for choosing letterboxed or cropping when displaying widescreen content? Does it support analog pass-thru?

Thanks for any info.

DanKurts

02-25-08, 10:58 PM

went out and got a converter box 2 weeks ago and it works great. really good tuner. picking up most channels well. however ch 13 is still an issue. if any of the experts could please get back to me or possibly come to tacoma please let me know. or you can give me a call at 253-273-5355 or 253-627-5492

thank you
mike

mike84
You're over the edge of the hill. Ch13 is NW of you about 305 degrees. The hill rises pretty fast from you, at about 260ft elevation, to over 360ft in just two blocks. Add in houses and buildings, not easy. What antenna are you using?
Dan

mike84

02-26-08, 10:49 AM

dan,
i'm using a 2-bay antenna that i got off of amazon with a radio shack amp. the antenna is hanging on the celing in my bedroom with a view of the tideflats and the tacoma dome, it's the only place where i can get seattle signals.

on another note i have talked with Russ enginer over at ch.13 and he will be down on thursday morning to check things out for me.

mike

mike84

02-26-08, 11:15 AM

Can you give us a review? Which model? Which features? Cost? Any issues with the coupon? Where did you buy it? Does it support S-video? What is the EPG (Electronic Program Guide) like? Does it give you options for choosing letterboxed or cropping when displaying widescreen content? Does it support analog pass-thru?

Thanks for any info.

my converter box it a zenith dtt 900. I went and paid full price for it couldn't wait for the cupons :) it works wery weel. i picked it up at circuit city at the tacoma mall. it doesn't support s-video. the epg gives my a desription if what on now and the the next half hour. it does give me options for the screen 1. set by program 2. 16:9 3. 4:3 and 4. zoom. however somew channels there isn't an option to change the screen ratio. it doesn't support analog pass- thru. on a good note though and a signal meter with a beeping tone to let you know when u have a good signal.

DanKurts

02-27-08, 01:40 AM

Snorfle

02-27-08, 02:05 AM

Anyone else having an issue with KCTS (9-1) over the past couple of days? I've tuned in to watch the news hour and the picture seems to be in "letterbox" mode. That is, a full-screen signal with the "widescreen" image in a smaller box, so I have bars on all four side and a tiny broadcast in the middle. The other channels don't seem to have this problem.

KRyanx

02-27-08, 03:29 PM

9-1 works that way for me as well, now. Didn't use to do that. 9-5 is their true HD channel.

Snorfle

02-27-08, 03:59 PM

9-1 works that way for me as well, now. Didn't use to do that. 9-5 is their true HD channel.

The problem is that 9-5 doesn't have the programs I really want to see (News Hour, Washington Week). I wrote an email to them asking about it, hope this isn't permanent.

rdn

02-28-08, 02:09 AM

I emailed KCTS a year or so ago about some other programming which was letterbox+pillarbox. I forget the answer, but it was a technical issue. The locally-originated programming on 9-1 is widescreen and looks darn good for 480i. My TV's zoom function helps, but the resolution would be better if they didn't waste pixels on the black frame. A lot of what is on 9-5 appears to be straight from the national PBS feed (like kids shows at 3 a.m.)

artshotwell

02-28-08, 09:42 AM

When I emailed KCTS about the letterbox+pillarbox issue, they said that's how PBS sends their analog feed. I don't believe it. But...

mike84

02-28-08, 06:29 PM

well been sitting around most of the day, decided to do some more testing with the converter box. tried it out in the bathroom ( yes i do have a tv and vcr in there in the corner ) :) pluged in my cheap uhf antenna and turned the converter on and wow all of the channels came in out of seattle and the east side plus tacoma pbs. i was suprised to say the least. now when my cupons show up i'll get the other converter boxes. but at least i know that i won't have any trouble getting a signal.
mike

Snorfle

02-28-08, 06:41 PM

And after looking at the schedule (http://www.kcts.org/tvschedule/index.asp), apparently the News Hour is rebroadcast at 11 PM every weeknight on 9-5 (presumably in true HD), but that's not very convenient.

I guess I believe that they are sending their feed like that (it is the only logical explanation), but why would they change it when it worked fine before? Does anyone have a contact at the station or a good email address (I still haven't heard back after filling out a form on the website)? At this point I'd rather just have the fullscreen version of the News Hour back... :(

tschall

02-29-08, 12:51 AM

Greetings all:

My name is Tim Schall and I program the encoders and operate the transmission systems for KCTS.

Up until early in the morning of 2/25/08 9.1 was a standard definition widescreen stream. As the only programming available to us in wide screen was locally produced the decision was made to make 9.1 into a 4:3 signal and put all of the locally produced material onto 9.5 which is our HD stream. This also allows outlying cable and satellite systems to use 9.1 for their 'analog' services.

It is a permanent decision. As we move closer to the 'digital transition' we will begin to move more and more of our programming to 9.5 which will eventually become our 'main' service.

I am an engineer. A technician type. I'll be happy to answer whatever questions I can. And for whoever it was that asked, I can be reached at tschall@kcts.org and will pass along whatever messages are appropriate to the correct people at KCTS or answer them myself.

Tim Schall
KCTS-TV

Snorfle

02-29-08, 01:37 AM

Hello Tim,

Thanks for stopping by the thread. I guess the main question I would have at this point is: do you know when some of the "major" shows (News Hour, NOVA, Frontline, etc.) will be "simulcast" on 9.5? Mostly what I see on the HD channel is Jazz concerts or specials. :rolleyes: I'm also a bit confused when you say that the only programming available to you in widescreen was locally produced (like "KCTS connects", I guess), since the main issue for me was getting to see the News Hour in HD over these past weeks.

Thanks again!

tschall

02-29-08, 10:16 AM

No problem. I have no idea when any of the shows will go into production in either widescreen or H.D. You are correct about NewsHour. One of the problems with making a generalization is you get caught with the exception. Newhour, as you have pointed out, is being produced in H.D. It's being supplied to us in H.D. It's also being supplied in letterbox. Because KCTS has the ability instead of airing the letterbox version of Newshour we took the H.D. version and downconverted it to S.D. widescreen for use on 9.1. Now that 9.1 is operating in a 4:3 format we are airing the letterbox version. Our locally produced content CNX, About The Money, specials like The Childrens Hospital 100th Anniversary we ran last night is currently done in standard definition wide-screen format and up converted for use on our H.D. service. Newshour is native H.D.

artshotwell

02-29-08, 10:26 AM

So, it sounds like there will be no more HD on 9.1 (109)? That's too bad. I had started watching NewsHour, but now that it's back to that smaller picture in SD, KCTS has lost me. And, I imagine other viewers, too. Using 9.1 may be convenient for outlying cable and satellite systems, but not a smart move, in my view. All that letterbox stuff on 9.1 looks simply awful on a wide screen tv.

Whidbey

02-29-08, 10:59 AM

So, it sounds like there will be no more HD on 9.1 (109)?

There never was. Ch 9 HD is only on 9.5.

artshotwell

02-29-08, 11:11 AM

There never was. Ch 9 HD is only on 9.5.
Maybe Tim will chime in here, but I assure I watched the first week of NewsHour in HD on 9.1 at 6pm. It's also available at 11pm on 9.5, I believe.

tschall

02-29-08, 01:17 PM

To be clear, let me make a couple of statements that may help this discussion along. First, wide screen and high definition ARE NOT the same thing. A station can transmit standard definition material (Generaly 704 x 480 pixels) in either 4:3 or (Using an elongated pixel method.) 16:9. Second, a station can transmit high definition in either 4:3 (Although I don't know why they would.) or 16:9 using either 1920 x 1080 pixels in an interlaced scanning format or 1280 x 720 pixels using a progressive scanning format. The ATSC transmission standard currently does not allow for 1920x1080p although it is technologically feasable. KCTS uses the 720p method for our high definition.

With all of that said, 9.1 (Or 109 on most cable systems.) was a 16:9 wide screen, standard definition channel. It WAS NEVER high definition. We did, occasionaly, down convert wide screen high definition material to wide screen standard definition for air. This allowed 9.1 to fill the screen at full resolution on a wide screen set when we were running wide screen material. However, since the only things available to us in wide screen were locally produced shows and NewsHour the decision was made to transition the wide screen broadcasts of those shows to 9.5 (or 108 on most cable systems.) and to make 9.1 into a 4:3 signal for reasons already covered.

At some point in the future we will begin transitioning to our high-definition service as our primary service. It is undetermined if that will remain 9.5 or be converted to 9.1.

And while we're on the subject of 9-this and 9-that, KCTS currently operates our digital service on RF UHF channel 41. We use a system called PSIP to, essentialy, con your receiver into thinking we're on channel 9. At the transition point we will be returning to RF VHF channel 9 and retiring the channel 41 transmitter. Also, channels 11 & 13 will be returning to their VHF channels. All the other Seattle stations will remain on their UHF assignements.

KCTS feeds Comcast directly via fiber with the same transport stream that goes to our transmitter. We supply custom feeds to several Canadian systems via fiber. To the best of my knowledge all other cable systems receive KCTS digital off the air.

Whidbey

02-29-08, 01:29 PM

Thanks tschall. 9.1 SD widescreen looks fantastic on my SD TV, using a Samsung DTB-H260F. I can see why some may have thought it was HD, since it looks so much better than other SD widescreen channels, such as Create.

artshotwell

02-29-08, 02:12 PM

...9.1 (Or 109 on most cable systems.) was a 16:9 wide screen, standard definition channel. It WAS NEVER high definition. We did, occasionaly, down convert wide screen high definition material to wide screen standard definition for air. This allowed 9.1 to fill the screen at full resolution on a wide screen set when we were running wide screen material. However, since the only things available to us in wide screen were locally produced shows and NewsHour the decision was made to transition the wide screen broadcasts of those shows to 9.5 (or 108 on most cable systems.) and to make 9.1 into a 4:3 signal for reasons already covered.
Thanks for setting us straight. Well, the I think the widescreen picture on 9.1/109 to be very good. I thought some of the PBS programming on 9.1 was in HD when it was prefaced with the PBS slide/statement it was in HD, where available. In fact, I'd swear that I've seen widescreen PBS programs on 9.1.

mikemikeb

03-02-08, 06:01 PM

KCTS feeds Comcast directly via fiber with the same transport stream that goes to our transmitter. We supply custom feeds to several Canadian systems via fiber. To the best of my knowledge all other cable systems receive KCTS digital off the air.What about the standard analog feed, which is now rebroadcast on 9-1? Have Comcast and the Canadian systems been receiving that feed by fiber or analog OTA? What about other cable and satellite companies?

Feel free to implement any of these ways to help 9-5's bandwidth:

Have you considered reducing 9-1 thru 9-4's resolution to 640x480i to allow a decrease in their video bitrates without increasing macroblocking (by ~300 kbps per channel; 1.2 Mbps total), allowing an associated increase in 9-5's HD bandwidth? Nobody with an SDTV would notice or care any loss in physical resolution on those channels, anyway, and would help prevent HD macroblocking during scene dissolves and scenes with rapid water movement.

Another way to reclaim bandwidth would be modifying audio settings on 9-1 thru 9-4 from 192 kbps 44.1 kHz, to 128 kbps 32 kHz. Few would notice or care in any change in sound quality; most TVs don't have enough dynamic range in their built-in speakers to give off an audible difference, anyway. That would open up another 256 kbps that could be used for HD bandwidth, or be used towards the new digital-delivered TV Guide 7-day EPG that I hear PBS stations are supposed to be implementing.

Also, ensure that null packets are kept to a minimum, and never pass 1.5 Mbps (and tend to stay between 500 kbps and 1 Mbps). That'll help with HD picture quality, too.

Wayne02

03-03-08, 01:05 AM

Howdy,

New guy here, hope I’m posting this in the right place. I’ve been to the antennaweb site and the fool site and have run the numbers but am still confused about antenna selection and was hoping to get some guidance.

I currently pay $660 per year for Comcast cable, and my goal is to drop Comcast and go OTA only as soon as possible. We just don’t watch much tv anymore but would like “some” tv occasionally.

Some info:

- Located pretty much on the top of a big hill east of 405 in Bothell, up from the canyon park shopping center. Ok, probably not dead center on top, but favoring the 405 side of the hill a bit, if that makes any sense…

- No restrictions on antennas on the roof, big, small, ugly, it doesn’t matter.

- Currently have 6 tv’s in the house/property, all of them old style/analog.

- The 6 tv’s are fed by cable network throughout the house/property.

- No plans to replace the existing tv’s anytime soon and will have to use converter boxes on them or do without some of them I guess.

- Antenna will be mounted on chimney and will be above house.

- Line of sight to the south / southwest seems ok if not for the many large fir trees in the way. This may be a deal breaker with regards to a signal, but I don't know how to tell for sure...

- My hope would be to put an antenna up now that would provide a signal between now and Feb. 09 as well as after Feb. 09 of course. I don’t mind having to switch channels and whatnot during and after the change but would hope whatever hardware I get now would still work post Feb. 09.

Based on the info from the fool site it looks like post Feb. 09 a number of the stations I have a chance at receiving are going back to VHF? KCPQ, KSTW, and KCTS. If this is the case I guess I need both a UHF and VHF antenna? Do they make combo antennas or do I need two separate ones? The antenna web site says I need an antenna for yellow, red, and blue. Do I want a directional antenna? How can I spec which specific type of antenna I need, and where can I buy it?

Thanks very much for any insight you may have.

Wayne

tschall

03-03-08, 01:42 AM

Hi Mike:

9-0 is fed to Comcast and some Canadian systems by fiber. Everyone else picks it up off the air. Part of the reason for making 9-1 into a 4:3 station was to allow the cable and satellite providers to use it for their services instead of the analog.

All of the ideas you put forth have already been considered and discarded for one reason or another. Personaly I like the 640x480 idea but I doubt you will ever see it happen. The problem is that some set top boxes have trouble with anything other than 704x480 on an SD service. Same thing with the audio. We run 192Kbps at 48khz because that's the Dolby 'standard' for two channel audio on ATSC.

Believe me, I've tried all of those things and the increase in quality on the HD isn't worth the trouble it causes in other places. FWIW: I average about 800k - 1M of null packets with really extreme swings being in the neighborhood of 2Megs if nothing is moving on all four services to almost no null packets.

The 7day TV guide service was on the air for a few months at KCTS and has been discontinued. I have no idea why but the server and the mux have been returned to T.V. Guide and the service has been discontinued. It will remain in service on our analog transmitter until the cut over.

Tim Schall

artshotwell

03-03-08, 02:07 AM

Well, I'm sorry to see no more HD on 9.1. No Masterpiece Theatre in HD. It USED to be PBS' flagship show, but has sure gone down hill, especially this year.

seatacboy

03-03-08, 09:28 AM

Have other condo/apartment users in the Seattle area had much experience with the Antennas Direct DB2, or other indoor/outdoor UHF-specific antennas?

Like many folks living in ground-floor units of multi-story complexes, I've relied on Comcast's limited cable due to truly dismal analog OTA reception. Using a Recoton powered indoor antenna and an RCA DTA-800B CECB, I can receive some but not all of the Seattle OTA channels, but signal strength tends to be disappointing. I am considering a placing something like the DB2 in my north-facing window (located in the Tukwila/Kent area of south King County).

Channels I've been able to receive so far with the Recoton powered indoor antenna:

KCPQ - signal strength 55% to 60% (but even with good SS, occasional periods of picture breakup perhaps due to multipath)
KWPX - signal strength 25% to 30%
KBTC - signal strength 20% to 30%
KUNS - signal strength 20% to 35%
KTBW - signal strength from 10% to 25%
KIRO - frequent interruptions, signal strength 5% to 20%
KMYQ - frequent interruptions, signal strength 5% to 20%
KCTS - frequent interruptions, signal strength 5% to 15%

With the Recoton's amplification turned off, most of the channels disappear entirely except for KCPQ, KBTC and KWPX.

rdn

03-03-08, 12:59 PM

Tschall, thanks for the explanations. The widescreen programming which was on 9-1 was some of the best-looking broadcast SD I have ever seen (as good as a DVD). I notice that more of the PBS network programs (Masterpiece, Antiques Roadshow) are showing up in HD on 9-5 and hope that the amount of HD content continues to grow. Has there been any word as to when KCTS might show up on satellite in HD? Apparently there has been some agreement reached with PBS and it is up to the sat providers and local stations.

Bob

artshotwell

03-03-08, 01:52 PM

You found Mastepiece Theatre on 9.5??? I searched for it and couldn't find it. What day and time???

Whidbey

03-03-08, 02:33 PM

You found Mastepiece Theatre on 9.5??? I searched for it and couldn't find it. What day and time???

I could swear I've seen MT on 9.5 as well. I searched the schedule on KCTS website, but no results for 9.5, just for 9.1.

rdn

03-03-08, 11:49 PM

I'm pretty sure it was on 9.5 last week. Sometimes the HD versions on 9.5 are shown twice, before the 9.1 broadcast and again at the same time. It isn't consistent.

artshotwell

03-04-08, 01:34 AM

I'm pretty sure it was on 9.5 last week. Sometimes the HD versions on 9.5 are shown twice, before the 9.1 broadcast and again at the same time. It isn't consistent.
I'll keep my eye out for MT, then. I just hadn't ever noticed it on 9.5.

ddOly

03-04-08, 02:32 AM

Hi,
I’ve been trying for the past 2 months to prepare for next February.:confused: I don’t really watch a lot of TV, I’m retired with a fixed income, so paying Comcast even $15/month more over what I pay for internet connection (it’s the only way I can get to the internet, and I consider the cost atrocious) is not an option I care to work with, if I can get at least 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 22.1, and 13.1.OTA:

The following is antenna web information on distance and directions for my location:

KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE, WA 9° 41.2 38
KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE, WA 9° 41.3 48
KCTS-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE, WA 9° 41.4 48
KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE, WA 12° 41.3 41
KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA, WA 12° 41.2 36
KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA, WA 337° 31.2 18
KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE, WA 12° 41.3 25
KBTC-DT 28.1 PBS TACOMA, WA 24° 16.7 27
KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE, WA 35° 46.1 33

I am located near Nisqually Reach in NE Olympia. Coordinates are: N47º 5.913’ – W122º 44.807’

There are tall Douglas Fir trees all around this area (many on my own lot), so that seems to be my main blockage problem. I’m not sure what hills, buildings, etc are between me and the TV towers

MY setup is as follows:
30 ft. telescoping mast at full extension, with guy wires
Channel Master Rotator at top.
On 5’ section above rotator is an AD DB8 antenna
Channel Master 7777 preamp
RG6 cable, rotator cable, and antenna mast are all properly grounded and connected to house main ground stake
RG6 cable is about 115’ in length
Output of preamp is connected to a Channel Master 8 port amplified distribution unit for distribution in house
Current feeds are to 2 Sony Bravia LCD flat screen TVs, and to 2 NTSC and 1 FM tuner and 2 ATSC tuners on a M$ Media Center 2005 system.

With the DB8 antenna, this is how I receive channels:
Digital:
KOMO-DT 4.1 no signal
KING-DT 5.1 gets a LOCK and stays fairly steady with very low signal
KCTS-DT 7.1 no-signal
KCTS-DT 9.1 no-signal
KSTW-DT 11.1 no-signal
KCPQ-DT 13.1 gets a LOCK and stays fairly steady with medium signal
KMYQ-DT 22.1 no-signal
KBTC-DT 28.1 gets a LOCK and stays fairly steady with medium signal
KWPX-DT 33.1 gets a LOCK and stays fairly steady with medium signal

As expected, with the trees, on windy days, I get lots of dropouts on the channels I do get.:confused:

Analog:
KOMO 4 with snow
KING 5 with snow (much better than 4)
KCTS 7 good signal with some ghosting
KCTS 9 ok signal with some ghosting
KSTW 11 with snow
KCPQ 13 good signal with a little ghosting
KMYQ 22 ok signal with some ghosting
KBTC 28 good signal with some ghosting
KWPX 33 with snow

The analog signals are what I expected with the gain characteristics of the DB8 antenna.

Before I got the DB8, I had one of RadioShack’s largest VHF/UHF antennas. I received all the analog channels except 9, 11, & 33 very well, with only a little ghosting on 7. For Digital, the channels came in pretty much the same way as they do with the DB8, only a little stronger for 5.1

I picked the DB8 based on it gain characteristics (15 db gain). The charts I looked at seem to show it is very unidirectional. Too bad they can’t show real world conditions like mine.

From what I’ve read so far in the forum, it appears I should have gotten one of the higher quality Yagi antennas like the Antennacraft MXU59 that Dan mentioned earlier since the Channel Master 4248 isn’t available anymore. The DB8 was pretty expensive, but I’m willing to check out something in the price range of the MXU59 if it looks like my best bet. Because there are even more trees facing south from my lot, satellite systems just don’t work here. I suppose that if I have to, I will resort to paying Comcast their ransom for even basic local TV access. With that, I will need to upgrade the ATSC tuners on my Media Center PC to have QAM tuning abilities, which is another big hit on the ol’ budget.

Even though I’ve been studying about antennas as much as I can, I’m just a novice at all of this and I’m getting very frustrated with all of it.:confused: I can only imagine how most people that cannot afford cable or satellite connectivity are going to feel next February. Many people I’ve talked with here in Olympia and Shelton have basically told me they are probably going to just dispose of their TVs next February. It’s too bad that all the government propaganda about how just buying a tuner box (with the help of a $40 coupon) will be the magic pill to solve all ills in the upcoming conversion.

I’ve really enjoyed reading the 208 pages of threads for this forum. I wish I had found out about it before I purchased the DB8 antenna. There is definitely a wealth of information available here. If anyone is familiar with my area and conditions, I would greatly appreciate any advice you can give.:)

Thanks,
DD in Olympia

DanKurts

03-04-08, 03:29 AM

DanKurts

03-04-08, 03:30 AM

ddOly

03-04-08, 04:50 AM

mikemikeb

03-04-08, 05:05 AM

Wayne
Send nearest cross streets for a location.
DanNot that I'm him, but from my Google research, I get the impression it would be somewhere around 228th St. SE and 31st Ave. SE. Or, to be more precise, 220th St. SE and 26th Ave. SE.

(Actually, 220th St. SE and 31st Ave. SE strikes my fancy, too. It could be any one of those three; I'm just doing the signal triangulation thing just to be safe. However, due to the proximity between each location, I'd think the result wouldn't matter, regardless of the selected location.)

Wayne02

03-04-08, 09:09 AM

House street is 233rd PL SE. Cross street is 45th. Thanks

Edited to add, just south of 228th. 45th and 228th intersect.

seatacboy

03-04-08, 07:22 PM

Wayne02: I used to live in Lacey and Olympia - actually in three different areas. All Seattle DMA stations were extremely tough to pull in as analog OTA except for KBTC, KCPQ, KTBW and KCKA (the KBTC Centralia station). I think there are some hills on the southern Kitsap Peninsula which seem to really mess up reception from the Seattle and Eastside transmitters.

A month ago, I asked the manager at Olympia's Desco Audio-Video about the DTV reception they received. I was told their reception was very marginal even with a very high mast and equipment similar to yours. Your location is at least closer in to the transmitters than the Cooper Point area.

Budget_HT

03-04-08, 09:38 PM

Thanks for the quick reply, Dan. Much appreciated. I'll try your suggestion of bypassing the distribution amp and go directly into my main TV. I'll let you know my results as soon as I do that and test.:)

If this turns out to be the problem, what is the easiest way to split out at least 5 ways to different tuners without too much attenuation and to much noise?

Thanks
DD in Oly

Our Comcast Limited Basic cable service is normally $15 per month, but is discounted by $10 with a broadband cable modem, resulting in $5 per month. I would consider that a reasonable alternative if I lived where you do. I subscribe to that same internet/Limited Basic combination right now, mostly so my wife can watch NWCN (Northwest Cable News), which is not available otherwise from OTA or satellite.

ddOly

03-04-08, 09:50 PM

DD
Location is actually pretty good. 41 miles is not that far, and you have some good stuff. My guess is it's the trees to the NE of you. Other items might be a combination of small things. I could run a list of stuff, but first guess is having another amp after the 7777 could be adding just enough noise to cause problems. An 8way is a lot of loss, but also a lot of noise when things get weak. The preamp should have enough to do at least one tuner. By pass the amplified 8way and connect directly to your best tuner and let me know what you get.
Dan

Hi, Dan.

I bypassed the the amplified 8 port distribution unit and went straight into my main TV, as you suggested. Went through the process of 1° increments with my rotator and rescanning for digital channels. I ended up with best signal for channel 5.1 in same place it was before the test. There were no changes from using the distribution amp and not using it.:confused:

I noticed that Seatacboy replied above to the thread about conditions in and around the Olympia, Lacey areas and his description seems to fit very well with what I'm experiencing. My location is at about 237' elevation on the N-NE side of a hill, so any other hills or structures that could be in the way would be in Pierce and south King counties. Of course there are lots of Douglas Fir trees from here to Puget Sound.

It just seems strange that channel 4.1 & 7.1 don't seem to have even spotty reception when antennaweb shows them to be in the same direction as channel 5.1.

If you or anyone else in this forum have any other suggestions, they will be greatly appreciated. I'm willing to look at a different type of antenna, possibly a very good very long range Yagi, if that would provide me with a better chance of OTA access. I want to keep Comcast as a last resort.

Thanks,
DD in Oly

ddOly

03-04-08, 10:02 PM

Our Comcast Limited Basic cable service is normally $15 per month, but is discounted by $10 with a broadband cable modem, resulting in $5 per month. I would consider that a reasonable alternative if I lived where you do. I subscribe to that same internet/Limited Basic combination right now, mostly so my wife can watch NWCN (Northwest Cable News), which is not available otherwise from OTA or satellite.

Budget_HT,

Thanks for the Comcast Basic information.:) $60/year is much easier to work with than $180/year with my budget. If nothing else seems to work for OTA, then I will definitely be checking into the limited Basic service add on with my internet access. I'll then need to add a dual clear QAM tuner to my Media Center PC. At least my 2 TVs have QAM capabilities.

Thanks,
DD in Oly

seatacboy

03-05-08, 12:51 AM

ddOly

03-05-08, 02:07 AM

ddOly: When I lived in Oly, it seemed odd how bad OTA reception was there. As Budget said, the Limited Basic TV service is about $15/month (price varies depending on your jurisdiction); if you have Comcast HSI, there's a $10 multi-product discount. You'll get about 30 channels.

FYI you probably should receive excellent shot at picking up DT from KCPQ and KBTC. Olympia also receives strong coverage from the West Tiger Mountain stations (KWPX Ion, KHCV and KUNS Univision). IMHO it's a shame that KOMO, KING and KIRO don't move their main transmitters from QA Hill over to West Tiger - that location is the ideal geographic location to effectively service the Seattle DMA.

Thanks for the reply, Seatacboy. Its been difficult to think about adding more services from Comcast because of the extremely poor service I get with the broadband connection. The reason I have all the OTA antenna and distribution hardware is because of the extremely poor reception in this area.

Comcast is beginning to look like the right choice and I will probably contact them tomorrow to get all the details and costs of limited basic cable.

As far as the big stations going to Tiger Mountain, that's probably too logical a decision for them to make. They probably figure that everyone down here are already on cable or satellite, so why put out the expense of changing their tower locations. If they did move, even those people on or very near Queen Ann hill would benefit greatly, as well as many others that are currently or will be having difficulty going to digital.

Thanks again,
DD in Oly