House street is 233rd PL SE. Cross street is 45th. Thanks

Edited to add, just south of 228th. 45th and 228th intersect.

Wayne02
You're in a bad spot. You are on a hill about 100ft elevation above sea level. What makes it bad, though, is the signal direction to the SW crosses the hill in the distance, one mile away, at cross streets of NE 201st & 105th NE, and an elevation of about 370ft. And if that's not bad enough, about 3 miles from you is another higher hill, about 450ft, loaded with trees making it worse.
HD is very line of sight, which puts you in the shadow of the hill, and the signal probably 100ft or more over your head.
Anything is possible, but it doesn't look promising.

I would suggest basic cable at $13/mo. It would still save you bucks. Further, the local HD channels are not scrambled. If your TV has a QAM tuner, the channels can be seen without having to pay the cable company for the converter box. Or, you can purchase a QAM tuner, like the Samsung H260 at Best Buy for about $170. There are PC cards that have QAM tuners, as well.
Dan

Hi, Dan.

I bypassed the the amplified 8 port distribution unit and went straight into my main TV, as you suggested. Went through the process of 1° increments with my rotator and rescanning for digital channels. I ended up with best signal for channel 5.1 in same place it was before the test. There were no changes from using the distribution amp and not using it.:confused:

I noticed that Seatacboy replied above to the thread about conditions in and around the Olympia, Lacey areas and his description seems to fit very well with what I'm experiencing. My location is at about 237' elevation on the N-NE side of a hill, so any other hills or structures that could be in the way would be in Pierce and south King counties. Of course there are lots of Douglas Fir trees from here to Puget Sound.

It just seems strange that channel 4.1 & 7.1 don't seem to have even spotty reception when antennaweb shows them to be in the same direction as channel 5.1.

If you or anyone else in this forum have any other suggestions, they will be greatly appreciated. I'm willing to look at a different type of antenna, possibly a very good very long range Yagi, if that would provide me with a better chance of OTA access. I want to keep Comcast as a last resort.

Thanks,
DD in Oly

DD in Oly
There are no hills in the way to Seattle or ch13. Within a 1/4 mile of your house you're line of sight. If you could see the water, you would have great recption. Yes, most of Olympia area is tough on reception. I've seen very few installs that were working.
Since you're getting the same results with the splitter removed, strength is not a major problem. As I said before, trees are the most logical reason. What bothers me is the fact ch4 does come in, but nothing else. Usually when I see this it's something very simple like a bad balun, crimped or slightly damaged cable, preamp that's flaky, slightly damaged or incorrectly installed antenna elements, etc. To suggest an antenna, in your case, would not be prudent until the other things have been eliminated. I would hate to see you spend your limited bucks on trial and error.
Since you already have cable internet, Budget_HT's cable option with QAM tuners sounds far better.
Dan

Hi all just bought Insignia NS-DXA1 - I was able to pickup 4,5,7,11,16 and 22
are there any more locals that transmit in digital

my location is 196th Ave SE and 24 DR SE at Bothell, 98012

any help is appreciated - thanks

saywhat: you've picked up most of the Seattle OTA digital stations. Typed in your approximate address at TV Fool (http://www.tvfool.com) (ZIP 98012). KCTS and KCPQ should be attainable for your location.

Your location is weaker for KTBW, KUNS, KWDK, KBTC, KHCV, and KWPX but you might pull these in with an outdoor antenna or some luck. There is a remote chance you can receive KVOS and KBCB.

Hi all just bought Insignia NS-DXA1 - I was able to pickup 4,5,7,11,16 and 22
are there any more locals that transmit in digital

my location is 196th Ave SE and 24 DR SE at Bothell, 98012

any help is appreciated - thanks

I would expect that 9 should also be viewable, since its transmitter is in the same location as 11 and 22.

Got my CECB coupons yesterday, so I went to Best Buy and bought an Insignia (Zenith/LG clone) and brought it home to try out.
First, I hooked it to my garage TV antenna, a CM 4221 clone mounted in my garage, and to my garage TV, a 21" Panasonic, circa 1993 or so.
First thing I noticed on the screen was that the menu images were shaking. No big deal, as long as the picture doesn't shake.
I ran it through the set-up, then ran the channel scan. In my garage, it only picked up channels 12, 13, 20 and 33. The first three didn't surprise me, since their signals so strong in my area. The fact it picked up 33 was a surprise, since it's weak in my area, especially with the antenna pointed away.
Next, I brought the CECB into the house an hooked it up via the antenna out on my Samsung DTB-H260F to my Sony TV. No more shaky menues, must have been the Panny TV. My main antenna is a CM 4228 with a CM 7777 pre-amp. The CECB picked up all the same channels my 260 does, with about the same signal strength. 34 in all, including sub-channels.
I didn't find anything much to say about the CECB that hasn't been mentioned in other reviews, except for one thing. While watching TV using it last night, we noticed a few very brief audio drop-outs. Just enough to be slightly annoying. I'm quite sure it's something to do with the box, not the signal, since it did it on more than one station, and I never get this with the Samsung box. PQ was about as good as it gets with composite video.

Hi all just bought Insignia NS-DXA1 - I was able to pickup 4,5,7,11,16 and 22
are there any more locals that transmit in digital

my location is 196th Ave SE and 24 DR SE at Bothell, 98012

any help is appreciated - thanks

saywhat
Agree with rdn, you should see 9 & 13 as well, nothing in the way except local obstructions, trees, buildings etc. What antenna are you using?
Dan

saywhat
Agree with rdn, you should see 9 & 13 as well, nothing in the way except local obstructions, trees, buildings etc. What antenna are you using?
Dan

thanks seatacboy, rdn and DanKurts
I am using one of the silver sensor indoor antenna. With help from tvfool, I was able to reposition the antenna to receive 9 (never knew they sooo many sub-channels, 9-5 is HD right? looks more like unconverted DVD quality :confused:) and 13 although it breaks-up some times.

9-5 is HD right? looks more like unconverted DVD quality :confused:) and 13 although it breaks-up some times.

If I recall correctly, they are both 720p.

Wayne02
You're in a bad spot. You are on a hill about 100ft elevation above sea level. What makes it bad, though, is the signal direction to the SW crosses the hill in the distance, one mile away, at cross streets of NE 201st & 105th NE, and an elevation of about 370ft. And if that's not bad enough, about 3 miles from you is another higher hill, about 450ft, loaded with trees making it worse.
HD is very line of sight, which puts you in the shadow of the hill, and the signal probably 100ft or more over your head.
Anything is possible, but it doesn't look promising.

I would suggest basic cable at $13/mo. Dan
Thanks Dan, I'll check out the basic cable package. We recently got FOIS for Internet, does anybody know if they offer a tv package as well?

Thanks

Thanks Dan, I'll check out the basic cable package. We recently got FOIS for Internet, does anybody know if they offer a tv package as well?

Thanks
Yes, FiOS does offer a TV package. But FiOS TV is limited in availability. You can check if FiOS TV is available in your area as which channels are available here

http://www22.verizon.com/content/fiostv/channel+lineup/channel+lineup.htm

Wayne02: if you are in Comcast's service area, what you want to ask for is "Limited Cable Service" (price varies by municipality, ranges between $13 and $17/month), not "Basic Cable", which carries a lot more channels but is $52.25 plus taxes. Needless to say, Comcast's digital services and digital tier levels can get confusing as well....if you simply want the basic no-nonsense "community antenna television", ask for Limited Basic. Comcast reps are reluctant to mention the Limited service level, preferring instead to offer "teaser rate" promos for "Basic" or "Digital Basic" services which go up after a few months.

I'll keep my eye out for MT, then. I just hadn't ever noticed it on 9.5.
Where would one get a definitive answer to whether and when Masterpiece is available in HD on 9.5?

Where would one get a definitive answer to whether and when Masterpiece is available in HD on 9.5?

After searching on zap2it.com and titantv.com, it is only on ch 9 / 9.1

Sorry if this question has been asked a zillion times before. I live on Inglewood Hill road and the cross street is 205th Ave N.E. Sammamish. I am new to OTA HDTV and am wondering why I can get 7.1, 4.1, 9.1... but can not receive 5.1 at all. If all the towers are at QA it doesn't make sense to me why not KING. Any ideas? I tried TV fool with no help.
Doug

Primary video source is Comcast limited basic cable. However, for OTA I'm using a Zenith DTT900 CECB along with a ten-year-old Recoton amplified indoor antenna with surprisingly good results. I'm in a ground-floor condo with horrible reception for analog OTA.

Short of putting up an outdoor aerial (possible future project), do you have suggestions for a small outdoor UHF antenna (i.e. Antennas Direct DB2) which I could place in my north-facing window to get lockable reception on most local stations?

I currently receive dependable signal on KBTC, KCPQ, KTBW, KWPX, KUNS and KHCV; I usually can get KIRO and KOMO, but very intermittent reception on KING, KONG, KTWB, and very rare reception on KCTS. Not bad for an extremely poor location, but I'd like to see about getting the major Seattle stations. P.S. The OTA DTV picture via the Zenith is significantly better than Comcast analog cable. Here's a rough idea of what TV Fool finds: http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/212ca12029/getdigital.php

seatacboy - here's a suggestion for an indoor set-up: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=676791&postcount=260

After searching on zap2it.com and titantv.com, it is only on ch 9 / 9.1

Masterpiece had been on at 6pm and 9pm Sunday evenings and will start again with Emma on March 23. Here is the schedule: http://proweb.myersinfosys.com/day.php?station=kcts&channel=KCTS+HD%3CBR%3ESeattle%2FYakima&airdate=03/23/2008

Sorry if this question has been asked a zillion times before. I live on Inglewood Hill road and the cross street is 205th Ave N.E. Sammamish. I am new to OTA HDTV and am wondering why I can get 7.1, 4.1, 9.1... but can not receive 5.1 at all. If all the towers are at QA it doesn't make sense to me why not KING. Any ideas? I tried TV fool with no help.
Doug

This is a common scenario in digital reception. Unlike analog, the digital receiver is very picky about signals. It really does not like reflections (ghosts in analog). Since 4,5,7 are not at *exactly* the same location, you can get different reflection patterns.

Sometimes moving your antenna can find a sweet spot where all stations come in. Try 6" increments perpendicular to the signal path. Vertical shift can also make a difference, although usually not as dramatic.

It just seems strange that channel 4.1 & 7.1 don't seem to have even spotty reception when antennaweb shows them to be in the same direction as channel 5.1.

Sorry if this question has been asked a zillion times before. I live on Inglewood Hill road and the cross street is 205th Ave N.E. Sammamish. I am new to OTA HDTV and am wondering why I can get 7.1, 4.1, 9.1... but can not receive 5.1 at all. If all the towers are at QA it doesn't make sense to me why not KING. Any ideas?Hmmmmm..... Methinks something's wrong with the KING transmitter. Old transmitter? Lower power level (remember that stations can broadcast at 85% of their rated power)? Bad exciter? Maybe a lower-quality transmitting antenna? A combo of factors?

This is a common scenario in digital reception. Unlike analog, the digital receiver is very picky about signals. It really does not like reflections (ghosts in analog). Since 4,5,7 are not at *exactly* the same location, you can get different reflection patterns.

Sometimes moving your antenna can find a sweet spot where all stations come in. Try 6" increments perpendicular to the signal path. Vertical shift can also make a difference, although usually not as dramatic.

I find that placement of an outdoor antenna is very important when one does not have line-of-sight with the transmitters. In Bremerton I receive every Seattle station quite well except 4.1. If I move my antenna slightly, I receive 4.1, but 5.1 and 16.1 drops out. I am still hunting for the ideal sweet spot for my antenna.

Hmmmmm..... Methinks something's wrong with the KING transmitter. Old transmitter? Lower power level (remember that stations can broadcast at 85% of their rated power)? Bad exciter? Maybe a lower-quality transmitting antenna? A combo of factors?

mikemikeb, et al
This is a common problem east of Seattle. One would think that the signals from the towers radiate equally in all directions. However, each station has a a unique pattern, to some degree. This is ch4, looking down from directly over the tower

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18937&rotate=0.00&p0=0.923&p10=0.976&p20=0.998&p25=1.000&p30=0.997&p40=0.984&p50=0.966&p60=0.951&p70=0.942&p80=0.937&p90=0.936&p100=0.937&p110=0.942&p120=0.951&p130=0.966&p140=0.984&p150=0.997&p155=1.000&p160=0.998&p170=0.976&p180=0.923&p190=0.838&p200=0.725&p210=0.593&p220=0.459&p230=0.345&p240=0.276&p250=0.261&p260=0.272&p270=0.280&p280=0.272&p290=0.261&p300=0.276&p310=0.345&p320=0.459&p330=0.593&p340=0.725&p350=0.838&p360=0.923&

Notice power looks good north, east and south, but west is way down.

Here's ch7, looking pretty much the same

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=65845&rotate=0.00&p0=0.917&p10=0.973&p20=0.997&p25=1.000&p30=0.998&p40=0.986&p45=0.978&p50=0.971&p60=0.958&p70=0.951&p80=0.948&p90=0.947&p100=0.948&p110=0.951&p120=0.958&p130=0.971&p135=0.978&p140=0.986&p150=0.998&p155=1.000&p160=0.997&p170=0.973&p180=0.917&p190=0.828&p200=0.709&p210=0.571&p220=0.433&p225=0.371&p230=0.320&p240=0.264&p250=0.268&p260=0.292&p270=0.304&p280=0.292&p290=0.268&p300=0.264&p310=0.320&p320=0.433&p330=0.571&p340=0.709&p350=0.828&p360=0.917&

This is ch5

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18954&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.915&p30=0.820&p40=0.709&p50=0.597&p60=0.501&p70=0.432&p80=0.393&p90=0.381&p100=0.393&p110=0.432&p120=0.501&p130=0.597&p140=0.709&p150=0.820&p160=0.915&p170=0.978&p180=1.000&p190=0.978&p200=0.915&p210=0.820&p220=0.709&p230=0.597&p240=0.501&p250=0.432&p260=0.393&p270=0.381&p280=0.393&p290=0.432&p300=0.501&p310=0.597&p320=0.709&p330=0.820&p340=0.915&p350=0.978&p360=1.000&

This isn't the only reason ch5 might be a problem, but I know it's usually at least 10db down on most any regular antenna you want to try in the Sammamish hills area and east, like Duvall. Some antennas are worse. Ch5's frequency is also a bit higher, making it more line of sight and affected by obstacles. And of course, you could have a ding in your cable, not visible, or a fussy tuner, or......

Then add in the fact that east Bellevue, Lake Hills area is in your way, with a gazillion trees, and I'm impressed you're even getting the other channels! It's very possible that's what's soaking up your weaker ch5 signal. I just did a survey today that was 40 miles, +/-, and there was only 3 or 4 blocks of fir trees nearby in the way, and then it was a clear shot. They completely blocked everything, but one channel, and even that was barely above minimums. Haven't seen one like that in years. Happens though.

What tuner are you using and what antenna?

Dan

Where would one get a definitive answer to whether and when Masterpiece is available in HD on 9.5?

According to the schedule on kcts.org, it will be on 9.5 on March 23 at 6 and 9 pm.

hi there -

i'm in the process of configuring a home video system using sagetv as my central server / repository. i just bought an hauppauge hvr-1600 card, which is able to capture clear qam in addition to analog tv. when i go through the configuration process in sagetv (namely, the channel scan), i get a bunch of digital channels that are received including the hd versions of each of the major network channels -- except kiro. sagetv is reporting signal strength for each of those other channels in the 85% range so it doesn't seem like signal strength is a problem. and i also tried removing all of the splitters i could to see if that made any difference, which it didn't.

does anyone know why there would be problems with kiro hd but not with any of the other local network channels?

thanks!
tu

This is a common scenario in digital reception. Unlike analog, the digital receiver is very picky about signals. It really does not like reflections (ghosts in analog). Since 4,5,7 are not at *exactly* the same location, you can get different reflection patterns.

Sometimes moving your antenna can find a sweet spot where all stations come in. Try 6" increments perpendicular to the signal path. Vertical shift can also make a difference, although usually not as dramatic.

I tried the incremental changes without any indication on the TV's signal strength monitor. I went to Frys and got a larger Channel Master antenna, hoping it will pick up a wider signal path and pull in a weaker signal. The neighbors will to thrilled.:rolleyes:

hi there -

i'm in the process of configuring a home video system using sagetv as my central server / repository. i just bought an hauppauge hvr-1600 card, which is able to capture clear qam in addition to analog tv. when i go through the configuration process in sagetv (namely, the channel scan), i get a bunch of digital channels that are received including the hd versions of each of the major network channels -- except kiro. sagetv is reporting signal strength for each of those other channels in the 85% range so it doesn't seem like signal strength is a problem. and i also tried removing all of the splitters i could to see if that made any difference, which it didn't.

does anyone know why there would be problems with kiro hd but not with any of the other local network channels?

thanks!
tu

t4uecker
It's been a while since I hooked up my QAM tuner, but from installation experience, Comcast moves things around and has many "dead" channels. That is, the carrier is there, but no actual program. You just get a blank screen. Since you are getting the rest of them, your cable signal is okay. They could also be running KIRO encrypted on another carrier, and you can't see it.
I would suggest asking this on the Seattle Comcast thread. There's people that might be near you (Comcast programming varies from area to area, wierd....) that could tell what channel number it maps to and if it's on.

Dan

t4uecker
It's been a while since I hooked up my QAM tuner, but from installation experience, Comcast moves things around and has many "dead" channels. That is, the carrier is there, but no actual program. You just get a blank screen. Since you are getting the rest of them, your cable signal is okay. They could also be running KIRO encrypted on another carrier, and you can't see it.
I would suggest asking this on the Seattle Comcast thread. There's people that might be near you (Comcast programming varies from area to area, wierd....) that could tell what channel number it maps to and if it's on.

Dan

thanks...i did, indeed, get an answer on the seattle comcast thread. it turns out that the software just didn't pick it up during the autoscan but i was informed what the channel info was and was able to add it manually. works fine now. thanks again.

I’m in Yelm about 420’ elev. Have trees in the direction of Seattle.
My antenna is 2- CM 4221A 4- bay’s stack over each other pointing roughly @ 350 degs.
I’m 50 miles from Seattle local’s towers channels 4,5,7,16 and 22.
These channels come in from 55 –70 on the meter and stays for a few hours then are gone seems like every 6 hours there either here or gone.
Fox 13.1-2 is @ 328 degs and about 49 miles comes in 85-88 on meter.
Channels 33-1 through 33-4 are in Bellevue about 49 miles @ 17 degs.
They come in 72-74 on meter with no problems I also get other channels that stay locked in.
The Meter is built in to the 722 dishnetwork box.

I was using a CM 0068dsb pre-amp found I did better without it.
Has anyone had similar problems and found out why?

I’m in Yelm about 420’ elev. Have trees in the direction of Seattle.
My antenna is 2- CM 4221A 4- bay’s stack over each other pointing roughly @ 350 degs.
I’m 50 miles from Seattle local’s towers channels 4,5,7,16 and 22.
These channels come in from 55 –70 on the meter and stays for a few hours then are gone seems like every 6 hours there either here or gone.
Fox 13.1-2 is @ 328 degs and about 49 miles comes in 85-88 on meter.
Channels 33-1 through 33-4 are in Bellevue about 49 miles @ 17 degs.
They come in 72-74 on meter with no problems I also get other channels that stay locked in.
The Meter is built in to the 722 dishnetwork box.

I was using a CM 0068dsb pre-amp found I did better without it.
Has anyone had similar problems and found out why?

Post your lat/lon or location so we can see if you have hills in the way. At that distance you need every bit of help you can get. Try using the data at www.tvfool.com to see if any of your problem stations are 1-edge or 2-edge refractions. Many people at long distances are living on reflections and they can come from anything including cloud layers. That is why things come and go. How high is your antenna setup and have you ever tried a horizontal stack to get a more directional end result?

Post your lat/lon or location so we can see if you have hills in the way. At that distance you need every bit of help you can get. Try using the data at .tvfool.to see if any of your problem stations are 1-edge or 2-edge refractions. Many people at long distances are living on reflections and they can come from anything including cloud layers. That is why things come and go. How high is your antenna setup and have you ever tried a horizontal stack to get a more directional end result?

quarque,

Lat. 46.920616 Lon 122.565184
I have no idea what 1 or 2 refraction means but, there all 1 except for kiro which is 2. Will tvfools know my elevation?
I found 15' from the ground was the best northwest side of house.. I moved it so many times on the roof I left foot prints LOL! I was waiting to get some feed back before mounting it horizontal.
Thanks
Jeff

Anyone having OTA HD problems tonight? 'Round about 9pm my Media Center lost all digital reception strength. I can't seem to find anything wrong with the computer, nothing changed around that time; I don't know if my antenna can "go bad" (it's a $10 indoor cheapy), or what else it might be.

I assume if folks were experiencing the same issues I am, the thread might be a little more lively tonight...

Anyone having OTA HD problems tonight? 'Round about 9pm my Media Center lost all digital reception strength. I can't seem to find anything wrong with the computer, nothing changed around that time; I don't know if my antenna can "go bad" (it's a $10 indoor cheapy), or what else it might be.

I assume if folks were experiencing the same issues I am, the thread might be a little more lively tonight...

I had trouble with ch 13 tonight at 8:00 - 9:00. Ch 5 was fine at 9:00 - 10:00. I also had a few brake-ups on ch 9, but those have gone away. I think it was just the normal prime time problems that happen every few days when you want to watch TV, but then go away after everything is over.

quarque,

Lat. 46.920616 Lon 122.565184
I have no idea what 1 or 2 refraction means but, there all 1 except for kiro which is 2. Will tvfools know my elevation?
I found 15' from the ground was the best northwest side of house.. I moved it so many times on the roof I left foot prints LOL! I was waiting to get some feed back before mounting it horizontal.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff
Looks like you're on Shambala Lane, just north of Bald Hill Road.
The area is on a plateau, with nothing in the way for hills, just trees around you. The land drops off about a 1/4 mile north, so that's really all your fighting.
The 6 hour thing is odd. My first thought is something local, like a business neon sign, nearby, or radio transmitter. However, you're getting ch33 fine, which is even weaker and further. Do you have this on a rotor? Have you tried stacking them side by side? This is the way the 4228 is built, and might work better. Be sure the coupling cables from each antenna are exactly the same length, and the balun wires don't get twisted.
Normally when signals come and go it's because you're right on the edge of minimum signal level. A preamp should help. I can't see how you could overload that preamp way out there. The one you have might be bad. It's rare, but happened to me.
The only other possibility is the receiver, but it's not likely it would be that frequency selective with a problem. They usually go south for all channels.

My friends folks live a mile or so south on Vail Road, and they do well with a 4221 and 7775 preamp I installed for a newer Direct box.....
Let me know.
Dan

In fact, CBS stations are supposed to be implementing TV Guide's new digital-delivery-based 7-day EPG within the year.

Is there any word on which station in Seattle is going to be providing this service?

Jeff
Looks like you're on Shambala Lane, just north of Bald Hill Road.
The area is on a plateau, with nothing in the way for hills, just trees around you. The land drops off about a 1/4 mile north, so that's really all your fighting.
The 6 hour thing is odd. My first thought is something local, like a business neon sign, nearby, or radio transmitter. However, you're getting ch33 fine, which is even weaker and further. Do you have this on a rotor? Have you tried stacking them side by side? This is the way the 4228 is built, and might work better. Be sure the coupling cables from each antenna are exactly the same length, and the balun wires don't get twisted.
Normally when signals come and go it's because you're right on the edge of minimum signal level. A preamp should help. I can't see how you could overload that preamp way out there. The one you have might be bad. It's rare, but happened to me.
The only other possibility is the receiver, but it's not likely it would be that frequency selective with a problem. They usually go south for all channels.

My friends folks live a mile or so south on Vail Road, and they do well with a 4221 and 7775 preamp I installed for a newer Direct box.....
Let me know.
Dan

Dan,
Yep. Shambala is correct. Why would the drop off be a problem?
I'm not sure why the 6 hour either other than something at Fort Lewis.
I took the lower CM 4221 down last night so I could add a brace for mounting it side by side. I never did get the major Seattle locals last night except for Kmyq which is downtown seattle then it's gone this A.M. So if I can get something with no amp and one 4 bay one would think with two and amp I would be getting all. No rotor I can point the Antenna at Kcpq 328 degs. and still get channels 33 which is at 17 degs.
The amp only made the meter go up 1 or 3 points. But channel 13 is very strong with or with out amp.
I'm not using a splitter on the 8 bay just ran 18ga, copper same length to each section. I have read that the splitter is better and some say no the wire between is better. What do you think?

Jeff

I had trouble with ch 13 tonight at 8:00 - 9:00. Ch 5 was fine at 9:00 - 10:00. I also had a few brake-ups on ch 9, but those have gone away. I think it was just the normal prime time problems that happen every few days when you want to watch TV, but then go away after everything is over.

Channel 13 was having problems last night. I tried both my ATSC tuners, both would break up the same way at the same time, I used PIP to watch both.
No problems with other channels, other than the occasional break-up due to the weather.

Thanks for the feedback on signal last night. Looks like it's something wrong with my setup.

DanKurts,

I tried a while back to use an OTA Yagi style antenna and that could have been my problem in getting OTA at my home in Snoqualmie...I just assumed Tiget Mountain was in the way and getting anything was impoosible....I am currently at:
47.543437, -121.868451

Would you mind plugging that into your terrain map s/w and see if it is possible to get any Digital OTA based upon that location? Perhaps I need a Channel Master 4228 and and amplifier to increase my chances of getting reception? Otherwise there is always the QAM tuner route...

Thanks for the help!

quarque,

Lat. 46.920616 Lon 122.565184
I have no idea what 1 or 2 refraction means but, there all 1 except for kiro which is 2. Will tvfools know my elevation?
I found 15' from the ground was the best northwest side of house.. I moved it so many times on the roof I left foot prints LOL! I was waiting to get some feed back before mounting it horizontal.
Thanks
Jeff

The "1 edge" or "2 edge" means you don't have line-of-sight if you put in the correct elevation. An "edge" is a ridge or hill. In doing a topo plot from your location I don't see why any Seattle towers would be not be listed as "LOS" even taking the earth's curvature into account over the 50 miles to QA hill. I think tvfool.com does not account for transmitter height correctly or something. I had to put in 200 feet for your antenna height to get rid of most of the "edges". That website chart is bogus. They must be assuming the transmitters are laying on the ground at QA hill instead of 500+ feet up!

Anyway, you need a higher gain setup (antenna as well as preamp). Like Dan said, yours may not be working properly. Putting the 4221's side-by-side will give you much better directionality. Using direct wire should be better than a splitter if done properly. Also, you could be fighting reflections so a narrow beamwidth would help. This is what the 4228 design does. Also, are you using good quality RG6 or better cable? How long is your run?

The "1 edge" or "2 edge" means you don't have line-of-sight if you put in the correct elevation. An "edge" is a ridge or hill. In doing a topo plot from your location I don't see why any Seattle towers would be not be listed as "LOS" even taking the earth's curvature into account over the 50 miles to QA hill. I think tvfool.com does not account for transmitter height correctly or something. I had to put in 200 feet for your antenna height to get rid of most of the "edges". That website chart is bogus. They must be assuming the transmitters are laying on the ground at A hill instead of 500+ feet up!

Anyway, you need a higher gain setup (antenna as well as preamp). Like Dan said, yours may not be working properly. Putting the 4221's side-by-side will give you much better directionality. Using direct wire should be better than a splitter if done properly. Also, you could be fighting reflections so a narrow beamwidth would help. This is what the 4228 design does. Also, are you using good quality RG6 or better cable? How long is your run?

quarque,
Your correct about TVfool not giving my elevation same with antennaweb I e-mailed antennaweb asking if they add my elevation never got a reply.
I did put them side by side today antennas are now 1 foot higher, with out the amp the signal meter was lower even for Fox so I removed the direct wire didn't like the setup and used coaxial with RG6 double shield and the splitter.
The rg6 dble shield to the Box is about 100'-125'

installed the amp again brought it up a few points.
The pattern is narrower now. When i had them stacked seems much lager pattern. I was pointing them at 354 degs At Seattle. Now need to point it about 340 degs even here I'm still not getting seattle locals but the stations in Bellevue at 17 degs. are still here maybe bouncing off the trees?
By putting them side by side would that decrease the signal meter?
Thanks
Jeff

quarque,
Your correct about TVfool not giving my elevation same with antennaweb I e-mailed antennaweb asking if they add my elevation never got a reply.
I did put them side by side today antennas are now 1 foot higher, with out the amp the signal meter was lower even for Fox so I removed the direct wire didn't like the setup and used coaxial with RG6 double shield and the splitter.
The rg6 dble shield to the Box is about 100'-125'

installed the amp again brought it up a few points.
The pattern is narrower now. When i had them stacked seems much lager pattern. I was pointing them at 354 degs At Seattle. Now need to point it about 340 degs even here I'm still not getting seattle locals but the stations in Bellevue at 17 degs. are still here maybe bouncing off the trees?
By putting them side by side would that decrease the signal meter?
Thanks
Jeff

Side-by-side should increase the gain unless the spacing is wrong. How close are the ends of the crosses between the two? The signals need to add together properly. Also, do you have the phasing the same on each one (left/right wired same on each)? I don't recall offhand what the details are on the 4228 - that is what you're trying to copy. Play with spacing and phasing.

Side-by-side should increase the gain unless the spacing is wrong. How close are the ends of the crosses between the two? The signals need to add together properly. Also, do you have the phasing the same on each one (left/right wired same on each)? I don't recall offhand what the details are on the 4228 - that is what you're trying to copy. Play with spacing and phasing.

quargue,

I butted the reflectors to each other I'm about 2" apart end to end. I looked on the web at a 8-bay just now seems like the spacing is ok.Yes the left/right I made sure was correct. What the proper way to make the wire connection as I think this splitter is killing some power.
Jeff

quargue,

I butted the reflectors to each other I'm about 2" apart end to end. I looked on the web at a 8-bay just now seems like the spacing is ok.Yes the left/right I made sure was correct. What the proper way to make the wire connection as I think this splitter is killing some power.
Jeff

Jeff
I went out to the garage and measured my 4228, it's 20-1/4" between center line of each vertical boom (pipe all the X braces attach to). The connector wire between each should be straight wire, and they meet exactly in the middle. Here's a picture
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/4228.html
As you look at the front of the antennas, the left connector screw on each should go together, and the right on each together.
When stacking yagi's, you should use a splitter and exact length wire between. It's possible to do them with straight wire, but it gets real tricky, and the results can vary a lot.
The amp may be doing a lot, but you just can't see it. The numbers you see on the strength indicator are signl to noise ratio, not actual signal level, as measured in db's. This is one of the gotcha's. Amplifiers are not picky. They amplify everything, including noise. That's where the noise figure (internal noise) on the specs comes in. Anything around 2 is pretty good, less is better. So while the actual signal level gets higher, so does the noise, and digital has a real problem with that. The resulting reading will show very little improvement.
Also, are you getting some signal at night and gone during the day? If so, that's a dead giveaway for a bad balun and connector. The factory baluns are just two plastic halves glued together. If they aren't sealed well, water gets inside, and then you have intermittent problems. Learned that one the hard way eons ago. Just replace yours. Even if its okay, you can't tell by looking, and it's a cheap swap. Check all the rivets on the X elements. Make sure they're all tight. If one's loose, just drill it out and put in a nut/bolt.
As quarque mentioned, side by side antennas are more directional, horizontally, and top/bottom mounting, vertically. 99% of the time side by side makes improves things.
Having the land drop off north of you is a good thing. Means you're more line of sight, no major hills in the way. There are miles of tree tops you're going through, though. They can break up the signal. Gain is only part of the reception. Having it all get there at the same time and within 6 or 7 db is also critical. CH33 is very high in elevation, about 3000ft. Ch13 is about 2000ft, and Seattle stations are from 700 to 1000ft. Ch33 has only about 175kw of power, ch 5 about 1000kw. Ch 33 is farther from you and weaker, yet you get it. That's what makes me think the trees are a small problem. If there are no trees around you to the north/north east, then height might help.
As for your elevation, a good instrument, like a GPS or checking your assessors office for the true number is the best way. However, it's not that critical. The TVFool website is cute, looks pretty with lots of data, but it fails when I give it known bad locations. My classic test is West Lake Sammamish Parkway. On the map, looks like a slam dunk to Seattle. Small problem, though, with a 300ft hill that's in the way, plus trees. There is some good data there, but trying to use it in combination with all the other "numbers", and then come up with the correct result is just impossible. Too many variables that aren't plugged in to the equation.
Back to Yelm.
Swap the balun, and put a new fitting on the cable, double check the side by side setup and report in.
Dan

DanKurts,

I tried a while back to use an OTA Yagi style antenna and that could have been my problem in getting OTA at my home in Snoqualmie...I just assumed Tiget Mountain was in the way and getting anything was impoosible....I am currently at:
47.543437, -121.868451

Would you mind plugging that into your terrain map s/w and see if it is possible to get any Digital OTA based upon that location? Perhaps I need a Channel Master 4228 and and amplifier to increase my chances of getting reception? Otherwise there is always the QAM tuner route...

Thanks for the help!

User7007
It's not Tiger Mt, but Mitchell Hill that's in the way, about 4 miles west.
Sorry, QAM time.
Dan

What retail stores actually sell the Antennas Direct DB2 in the Seattle area? In fact, which specific stores actually are carrying a selection of outdoor TV antennas in stock in this area?

It's been frustrating to find so few electronics stores actually sell antennas (other than indoor rabbit ears). I found a Channel Master 4221 at Frys but it's bigger than I'd like to use indoors pointed out my north-facing condo window - although if a DB2 doesn't do the job, I might reconsider.

FYI I'm in a ground-floor condo east of SeaTac Airport, with my unit on the southern slope of the hill. Here is the TV Fool info: http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/2fddd47c36/getdigital.php

Jeff
I went out to the garage and measured my 4228, it's 20-1/4" between center line of each vertical boom (pipe all the X braces attach to). The connector wire between each should be straight wire, and they meet exactly in the middle. Here's a picture
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/4228.html
As you look at the front of the antennas, the left connector screw on each should go together, and the right on each together.
When stacking yagi's, you should use a splitter and exact length wire between. It's possible to do them with straight wire, but it gets real tricky, and the results can vary a lot.
The amp may be doing a lot, but you just can't see it. The numbers you see on the strength indicator are signl to noise ratio, not actual signal level, as measured in db's. This is one of the gotcha's. Amplifiers are not picky. They amplify everything, including noise. That's where the noise figure (internal noise) on the specs comes in. Anything around 2 is pretty good, less is better. So while the actual signal level gets higher, so does the noise, and digital has a real problem with that. The resulting reading will show very little improvement.
Also, are you getting some signal at night and gone during the day? If so, that's a dead giveaway for a bad balun and connector. The factory baluns are just two plastic halves glued together. If they aren't sealed well, water gets inside, and then you have intermittent problems. Learned that one the hard way eons ago. Just replace yours. Even if its okay, you can't tell by looking, and it's a cheap swap. Check all the rivets on the X elements. Make sure they're all tight. If one's loose, just drill it out and put in a nut/bolt.
As quarque mentioned, side by side antennas are more directional, horizontally, and top/bottom mounting, vertically. 99% of the time side by side makes improves things.
Having the land drop off north of you is a good thing. Means you're more line of sight, no major hills in the way. There are miles of tree tops you're going through, though. They can break up the signal. Gain is only part of the reception. Having it all get there at the same time and within 6 or 7 db is also critical. CH33 is very high in elevation, about 3000ft. Ch13 is about 2000ft, and Seattle stations are from 700 to 1000ft. Ch33 has only about 175kw of power, ch 5 about 1000kw. Ch 33 is farther from you and weaker, yet you get it. That's what makes me think the trees are a small problem. If there are no trees around you to the north/north east, then height might help.
As for your elevation, a good instrument, like a GPS or checking your assessors office for the true number is the best way. However, it's not that critical. The TVFool website is cute, looks pretty with lots of data, but it fails when I give it known bad locations. My classic test is West Lake Sammamish Parkway. On the map, looks like a slam dunk to Seattle. Small problem, though, with a 300ft hill that's in the way, plus trees. There is some good data there, but trying to use it in combination with all the other "numbers", and then come up with the correct result is just impossible. Too many variables that aren't plugged in to the equation.
Back to Yelm.
Swap the balun, and put a new fitting on the cable, double check the side by side setup and report in.
Dan

Dan and quarque,
20-1/4" between center line of each vertical boom is the same here.
At 8:50am am I did a scan and pulled in 4.1,5.1-2,7.1-2 and 9.1-5 went back about 11am they where gone.
I replaced Balum and Rg6 with 18ga wire and it works better. I also made the wire connection further apart at the center of the antennas like the picture showed . Scan without power amp got 2 channels(Fox) pointing towards Seattle. Then I reversed the balum leads got 11 channels 13.1-2 , 20.1-5 and 33.1-4
Then connected the amp got 16 channels 13.1-2, 20.1-5, 33.1-4 , 45.1-4 and 51.1 so it look like the amp is working.
The antenna is more sensitive side by side then stacked.
I can move the antenna 1/2 " and lose or pickup channels.

So RF noise can lose signals ? I do get a buzzing noise on my Am radio seems to be more in the day then at night so I have to move the radio to stop the buzzing.

The 4421 reflector braces on one antenna where smashed during shipping so it's not really the same distance as the other. The company has sent a new one which should be here Friday.

I think come Feb. 2009 going to be a lot of unhappy people that use vhf today even with the free boxes.

Jeff

What retail stores actually sell the Antennas Direct DB2 in the Seattle area? In fact, which specific stores actually are carrying a selection of outdoor TV antennas in stock in this area?

It's been frustrating to find so few electronics stores actually sell antennas (other than indoor rabbit ears). I found a Channel Master 4221 at Frys but it's bigger than I'd like to use indoors pointed out my north-facing condo window - although if a DB2 doesn't do the job, I might reconsider.

FYI I'm in a ground-floor condo east of SeaTac Airport, with my unit on the southern slope of the hill. Here is the TV Fool info: http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/2fddd47c36/getdigital.php

I think I went just about everywhere to fine a good selection of UHF antennas. The best I could fine was at Frys. Not great but.... They keep their antennas in two locations, one near their RG cables and the other
by the flat screen wall mounts. Good luck.

Fry's has more antenna stock in the in-store storage area, just east of the furniture area. When I looked for a 4221, there were none in the back (by the TVs) and none in the display in the parts area (near the PC repair counter).

I asked a salesperson to look in the storage area and he repeatedly said they only had 4228's there. I looked for myself and found 4 or 5 4221's on the very top shelf (that I could see from the floor - there could have been more behind those). He still argued with me until he climbed up (at my insistence) and saw for himself.

I suggested he move a couple out on the floor where less persistent customers might find and buy them, but I was there the next day and none had moved from their hiding place on the top shelf, 10-12 feet off the ground.

Dave - us old farts just can't seem to teach these young whipper snappers anything these days:D Thanks for at least trying to make the situation better for the uninitiated...

Jeff - glad to see your efforts are paying off. You are right about Feb 2009 being the death of free TV for many folks. In outlying rural areas many rely on UHF repeaters and many of those will just be turned off due to lack of funds.

Dave - us old farts just can't seem to teach these young whipper snappers anything these days:D Thanks for at least trying to make the situation better for the uninitiated...

Jeff - glad to see your efforts are paying off. You are right about Feb 2009 being the death of free TV for many folks. In outlying rural areas many rely on UHF repeaters and many of those will just be turned off due to lack of funds.

According to www.dtv2009.org, low power stations are not required to shut down their analog signal.

Q: I live in a community with translator and low-power television service. Do I need to take action before February 17, 2009?

A: Translator and low-power television stations are not required to go all-digital after February 17, 2009. Viewers of these broadcast stations should contact their station for details. As these stations go digital, consumers will need to take action to continue to receive their free TV with an antenna and may want to consider applying for TV converter box coupons between January 1, 2008 and March 31, 2009, because after that date, coupons will no longer be available.

Dan and quarque,
20-1/4" between center line of each vertical boom is the same here.
At 8:50am am I did a scan and pulled in 4.1,5.1-2,7.1-2 and 9.1-5 went back about 11am they where gone.
I replaced Balum and Rg6 with 18ga wire and it works better. I also made the wire connection further apart at the center of the antennas like the picture showed . Scan without power amp got 2 channels(Fox) pointing towards Seattle. Then I reversed the balum leads got 11 channels 13.1-2 , 20.1-5 and 33.1-4
Then connected the amp got 16 channels 13.1-2, 20.1-5, 33.1-4 , 45.1-4 and 51.1 so it look like the amp is working.
The antenna is more sensitive side by side then stacked.
I can move the antenna 1/2 " and lose or pickup channels.

So RF noise can lose signals ? I do get a buzzing noise on my Am radio seems to be more in the day then at night so I have to move the radio to stop the buzzing.

The 4421 reflector braces on one antenna where smashed during shipping so it's not really the same distance as the other. The company has sent a new one which should be here Friday.

I think come Feb. 2009 going to be a lot of unhappy people that use vhf today even with the free boxes.

Jeff


Jeff

Well done. The sensitivity is good, shows the antenna is working. Also shows your signal is a bit rough, waveshape wise on a meter. I would expect that for your location. This is where you start to find the sweet spot to minimize that sensitivity. Then you can rotate the antenna around to get the fussier stations.
It sounds like you still might have something grounded on the antenna, though. Reversing the balun should make no difference. All the cross ties and metal bits on the black plastic parts should remain isolated from the boom and back mesh. Also, make sure those two balun leads are not twisted together, like they do for cat5 or speaker wire. Each balun lead should be as equal in length and shape as the other, much as possible.

Yes, noise, of the right type and amount can really muck up signals.
It's normal to pick up a little more noise on AM during the day from a weak station. Sun causes it. If you're picking up noise from strong AM stations, then you might have something else going on around you or in your house. In the evening, take a portable radio, tune it to a weak but fairly clear station, then walk around the house, in and out, and see if you find a noise source. Obviously, if you get near your power panel it will pick up some, or light dimmers. What you're looking for is the unusual stuff. Had one job where a neighbor had an old refrigerator in his garage that put out huge amounts of noise in the ch5 audio band. Found it accidentally while checking out the connections on the customers antenna. Set the antenna down on the roof, pointing at the neighbors garage and my meter went nuts. Started turning things off in his garage, bingo! The refer was quiet as a mouse, too. Wierd. Also have found noise problems on farms where they have the electric fencing. The switching apparatus, on old ones, is just a relay on a timer, and the contacts can make great random frequency transmitters.

After you get the new antenna installed, send an update.

I'm looking forward to Feb 2009. Should be very interesting. I'm planning on clearing the decks for a few weeks, just to make room for old customers that aren't up to speed.
On the one hand, it could be like the Y2K date change, not much happening. If they don't put out enough notice on TV, though, with some more explanation, there will be some fallout. What amazes me is how they say all you need is a box and antenna, but don't really specify what kind of antenna, or where it needs to be, or that some people could be in locations that just won't work for HD, yet do work somewhat with analog. But then, it is the Government, and I did serve in the military, so I shouldn't be too surprised. For all the "Change" rhetoric going around these days, some things you just know never will.....

Dan

I think we may get a chance to see how our UHF antenna systems perform in the VHF-high band in Feb, 2009.

I wonder how quickly the stations will move their digital signals to their VHF channels.

Jeff

Well done. The sensitivity is good, shows the antenna is working. Also shows your signal is a bit rough, waveshape wise on a meter. I would expect that for your location. This is where you start to find the sweet spot to minimize that sensitivity. Then you can rotate the antenna around to get the fussier stations.
It sounds like you still might have something grounded on the antenna, though. Reversing the balun should make no difference. All the cross ties and metal bits on the black plastic parts should remain isolated from the boom and back mesh. Also, make sure those two balun leads are not twisted together, like they do for cat5 or speaker wire. Each balun lead should be as equal in length and shape as the other, much as possible.

Yes, noise, of the right type and amount can really muck up signals.
It's normal to pick up a little more noise on AM during the day from a weak station. Sun causes it. If you're picking up noise from strong AM stations, then you might have something else going on around you or in your house. In the evening, take a portable radio, tune it to a weak but fairly clear station, then walk around the house, in and out, and see if you find a noise source. Obviously, if you get near your power panel it will pick up some, or light dimmers. What you're looking for is the unusual stuff. Had one job where a neighbor had an old refrigerator in his garage that put out huge amounts of noise in the ch5 audio band. Found it accidentally while checking out the connections on the customers antenna. Set the antenna down on the roof, pointing at the neighbors garage and my meter went nuts. Started turning things off in his garage, bingo! The refer was quiet as a mouse, too. Wierd. Also have found noise problems on farms where they have the electric fencing. The switching apparatus, on old ones, is just a relay on a timer, and the contacts can make great random frequency transmitters.

After you get the new antenna installed, send an update.

I'm looking forward to Feb 2009. Should be very interesting. I'm planning on clearing the decks for a few weeks, just to make room for old customers that aren't up to speed.
On the one hand, it could be like the Y2K date change, not much happening. If they don't put out enough notice on TV, though, with some more explanation, there will be some fallout. What amazes me is how they say all you need is a box and antenna, but don't really specify what kind of antenna, or where it needs to be, or that some people could be in locations that just won't work for HD, yet do work somewhat with analog. But then, it is the Government, and I did serve in the military, so I shouldn't be too surprised. For all the "Change" rhetoric going around these days, some things you just know never will.....

Dan

Dan,
When I take the antenna down I'll meter the antenna out to make sure it's clean.
Next door (East of me) has a wind generator and huge solar panels. We hardly get enough wind to run the wind generator.

I'll take the radio out and check.

In a previous post you mentioned a 4221 and a 7775 preamp on Vail
rd. are they getting Seattle locals?
Do they have trees like I do?

When I ordered the Antenna from Solid Signals he was going to order another pre-amp 77 something but, was worried about 13.1 being to strong so he ordered CM 0068dsb amp.

13.1 comes in with the pre-amp at 76 and 33.4 at 81 when pointing at 350+ degs. I'm still under the 30 days so I could upgrade to a more powerful pre-amp. what do you think?

Yeah, Feb. 2009 should be interesting I hear about 100,000 homes have VHF now in Seattle area. If they think changing out the VHF with a UHF it's going to work the first time with all the variables you will be working O.T. Before cable we had VHF big Antenna 15' off the ground with trees everywhere then we lived in Maple Valley we just pointed at Seattle and it worked.

Seems like every 4 years we hear the same old stuff even with 8 years of clinton it's the same old issues we need to fix.


Jeff

I think we may get a chance to see how our UHF antenna systems perform in the VHF-high band in Feb, 2009.

I wonder how quickly the stations will move their digital signals to their VHF channels.
I got the chance early. I replaced a VHF/UHF antenna with a CM 4221. The digital channels (all UHF currently) did much better. The VHF (all analog) did worse. With the VHF/UHF antenna, I used to get very good analog reception on 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13. After the switch to a UHF-only antenna, I get fair but not good reception on those channels with the most interference on the low-band VHF (4, 5 and 7). The analog reception on 9, 11 and 13 aren't great but they are OK. I think KCTS 9, KSTW 11 and KCPQ 13 are all set to switch to DTV on VHF in February 2009. I'm keeping my old VHF antenna in case I need to put it back up.

I got the chance early. I replaced a VHF/UHF antenna with a CM 4221. The digital channels (all UHF currently) did much better. The VHF (all analog) did worse. With the VHF/UHF antenna, I used to get very good analog reception on 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13. After the switch to a UHF-only antenna, I get fair but not good reception on those channels with the most interference on the low-band VHF (4, 5 and 7). The analog reception on 9, 11 and 13 aren't great but they are OK. I think KCTS 9, KSTW 11 and KCPQ 13 are all set to switch to DTV on VHF in February 2009. I'm keeping my old VHF antenna in case I need to put it back up.

zyland
This is going to be the big mystery. After ten years of discovering how unlike digital reception is from analog, and how many of my old theories went down in flames, it's really a coin toss. I can see arguments for either case. My install experience with the analyzer tells me it's going to be really wierd in the trees and behind a hill, something we never get around here....... ;-)
Dan

Dan,
When I take the antenna down I'll meter the antenna out to make sure it's clean.
Next door (East of me) has a wind generator and huge solar panels. We hardly get enough wind to run the wind generator.

I'll take the radio out and check.

In a previous post you mentioned a 4221 and a 7775 preamp on Vail
rd. are they getting Seattle locals?
Do they have trees like I do?

When I ordered the Antenna from Solid Signals he was going to order another pre-amp 77 something but, was worried about 13.1 being to strong so he ordered CM 0068dsb amp.

13.1 comes in with the pre-amp at 76 and 33.4 at 81 when pointing at 350+ degs. I'm still under the 30 days so I could upgrade to a more powerful pre-amp. what do you think?

Yeah, Feb. 2009 should be interesting I hear about 100,000 homes have VHF now in Seattle area. If they think changing out the VHF with a UHF it's going to work the first time with all the variables you will be working O.T. Before cable we had VHF big Antenna 15' off the ground with trees everywhere then we lived in Maple Valley we just pointed at Seattle and it worked.

Seems like every 4 years we hear the same old stuff even with 8 years of clinton it's the same old issues we need to fix.


Jeff


Jeff
They are more in a pasture type setting. Nearest trees are 100yds or more away. The preamp you have is obviously working, specially if you're not getting the fading anymore, so no bother. There are ways of knocking down the ch13 without getting to tricky, in your case, but wait until you get the new setup up and working and see wassup.
Dan

Jeff
They are more in a pasture type setting. Nearest trees are 100yds or more away. The preamp you have is obviously working, specially if you're not getting the fading anymore, so no bother. There are ways of knocking down the ch13 without getting to tricky, in your case, but wait until you get the new setup up and working and see wassup.
Dan

Dan,
Installed the replacement today think the Antenna's field of view got reduced.
Still no seattle locals. Oh yes fading out still there. It's been a few days since I seen seattle locals. Anyhow I'm spending to much time going around in circles seems like I'm trying to throw a rock on QA hill from yelm. So your hired!!!! No big rush.
I have a few days to send back the pre- amp for bigger one what do you think?
Not all the Seattle area locals are on Dish the wife likes to use the Dish dvr for recording. If it comes out that the dish box is the trouble any way to connect a DTV convert box into the dish box so she could still record dish locals and the added converter box locals?
Thanks
Jeff

Dan,
Installed the replacement today think the Antenna's field of view got reduced.
Still no seattle locals. Oh yes fading out still there. It's been a few days since I seen seattle locals. Anyhow I'm spending to much time going around in circles seems like I'm trying to throw a rock on QA hill from yelm. So your hired!!!! No big rush.
I have a few days to send back the pre- amp for bigger one what do you think?
Not all the Seattle area locals are on Dish the wife likes to use the Dish dvr for recording. If it comes out that the dish box is the trouble any why to connect a DTv convert box into the dish box so she could still record dish locals and the added converter box locals?
Thanks
Jeff

No.
The 622 / 722 has a built in ATSC tuner, and can record from it.

No.
The 622 / 722 has a built in ATSC tuner, and can record from it.

Allen,
Are these answers for two question No I should keep the Amp.

Yes, the 722 will record the convert box?

Thanks,
Jeff

I believe he meant that the 722 won't record the output of the converter box, but has its own ATSC tuner and can record from that.

I believe he meant that the 722 won't record the output of the converter box, but has its own ATSC tuner and can record from that.

That will be a big problem more stuff like another remote and another dvr.

The OTA HD channels beat dish in clarity.
Thanks
Jeff

Dan,
Installed the replacement today think the Antenna's field of view got reduced.
Still no seattle locals. Oh yes fading out still there. It's been a few days since I seen seattle locals. Anyhow I'm spending to much time going around in circles seems like I'm trying to throw a rock on QA hill from yelm. So your hired!!!! No big rush.
I have a few days to send back the pre- amp for bigger one what do you think?
Not all the Seattle area locals are on Dish the wife likes to use the Dish dvr for recording. If it comes out that the dish box is the trouble any way to connect a DTV convert box into the dish box so she could still record dish locals and the added converter box locals?
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff
Might have some time Sunday afternoon.
Call me tomorrow.
Dan
206-794-3993

Jeff
Might have some time Sunday afternoon.
Call me tomorrow.
Dan
206-794-3993

Will do

Jeff

I couldn't help asking: have KING, KONG, KOMO and KIRO evaluated migrating their QA transmitters to a better location such as West Tiger Mountain or Gold Mountain? Those are higher-altitude locations with a potentially more consistent ability to blanket their intended service area.

Northwest Broadcasters Digital TV transmitter details (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm)

I need a little help troubleshooting some poor reception using a new set top box (Magnavox TB100MW9) to tune in DTV. I'm getting microblocking and dropped sound about every 10-20 seconds or so.

The meter on the box reads about 10-15 on average. I'm getting channels 4.1, 5.1-2, 7.1-2, 9.1-3, 11.1 & 22.1. I'm not pulling in Fox, at all.

The worst offender (aside from Fox which doesn't show up at all) is 4.1 which drops in and out frequently.

My cross streets are NE 178th and Ballinger Way NE, 98155.

I'm only about 10 miles away from 2 of the towers but fox is quite a bit further away so I'm wondering if the problem is too many interferences with trees and hills in between me and the towers?

If it is, what's the best way of fixing it? Would an attenuator or filter of some kind do the trick? I initially thought about getting an amplifier but it seems that might just amplify the noise more and cause more problems.

My setup:

Chimney mount Channel Master antenna (not sure which model but it's a vhf, ufh, fm antenna...medium size. The antenna is feeding into a distribution point and being fed into 2 tv's.

Anyway, thanks for any help you can provide.

I need a little help troubleshooting some poor reception using a new set top box (Magnavox TB100MW9) to tune in DTV. I'm getting microblocking and dropped sound about every 10-20 seconds or so.

The meter on the box reads about 10-15 on average. I'm getting channels 4.1, 5.1-2, 7.1-2, 9.1-3, 11.1 & 22.1. I'm not pulling in Fox, at all.

The worst offender (aside from Fox which doesn't show up at all) is 4.1 which drops in and out frequently.

My cross streets are NE 178th and Ballinger Way NE, 98155.

I'm only about 10 miles away from 2 of the towers but fox is quite a bit further away so I'm wondering if the problem is too many interferences with trees and hills in between me and the towers?

If it is, what's the best way of fixing it? Would an attenuator or filter of some kind do the trick? I initially thought about getting an amplifier but it seems that might just amplify the noise more and cause more problems.

My setup:

Chimney mount Channel Master antenna (not sure which model but it's a vhf, ufh, fm antenna...medium size. The antenna is feeding into a distribution point and being fed into 2 tv's.

Anyway, thanks for any help you can provide.

Staticvision
Being in a valley with lots of trees doesn't help. The fact you're getting all those channels is a good review of that tuner. Ch13 is more to the SW and the hill and trees are the problem. An amplifier will make things worse for you. I've done a few surveys there, and have an install just up the hill, at 47th NE and 184th. Much higher than you and still can't get ch13. What ever you try for an antenna, it will need to be high. Might want to make sure you can return it, too. For the other channels, I found a yagi style antenna works better there. The Channel Master 4248, or what ever equvialent they make now would be a good choice. If your lead in wire is old, might want to swap that out, too.
Dan

Thanks for the info, Dan. That does help.

Just another question. How "directional" is a yagi type antenna? Since, the two major towers are about 13* apart according to antennaweb would a rotator need to be used with that type of antenna?

Anyway, thanks again.

Good news! McLendon Hardware (http://www.mclendons.com/) in Renton sells the Channel Master 4221 four-bay for $24.99. Although this was bigger than I wanted for indoor use, it was a good value. I'm currently evaluating it in my north-facing condo window. Initial impressions are this may do the job, though I'll need to experiment with location and figure out how to secure the unit. It's not an absolute panacea for a bad location - I'm still finding it almost impossible to get both the QA Hill stations (KOMO, KIRO, KING, KONG) and Capitol Hill stations (KCTS, KSTW, KMYQ) at the same antenna placement, but will keep working on it.

On the "strong" stations from Tiger Mountain (KWPX, KUNS, and KHCV), my Zenith DTT-900 is pulling in 80% signal strength. KBTC from Tacoma is coming in 70-80%, KCPQ about 70%, KTBW about 60-70%.

Anyone else using a CM 4221 indoors in an apartment or condo in the Seattle area?

Hello all,

My grand experiment with OTA signals in Duvall, WA has been quite a success (I have a CM 4228 roof-mounted with a CM7777 amplifier.) Took some trying to get a line of sight throught the evergreens on Miller Street that allowed both ABC and NBC to come in without dropping, but then I can't get qubo in that location without a rotator. Oh well.

I use a home theater PC with Vista MCE to record HD shows all tivo-style, but for some reason KCTS dropped out on me one day and will not come back. All other ATSC tuners in my home connected to the same antenna receive it at 96-99 signal strength, but Media Center just shows a single red bar!

Is it possible that I may have "burned out" that signal on the two tuners in my PC? I'm hoping someone may have some wisdom to impart before I'm forced to reformat and hope for the best.


Thanks for reading and for all of the excellent advice provided on this forum!

I use a home theater PC with Vista MCE to record HD shows all tivo-style, but for some reason KCTS dropped out on me one day and will not come back. All other ATSC tuners in my home connected to the same antenna receive it at 96-99 signal strength, but Media Center just shows a single red bar!

The same thing happened to my Vista MCE. I used to get 9-1 with no problem as well as the rest of KCTS. Now, 9-1 is not receiving but 9-2, 9-3 and 9-5 are all fine. This also happened to 11-1. MCE just stopped receiving it. I get 11-1 just fine on my other tuner (same antenna).

Strange.

There was a bad update sent out by Microsoft. Deleting and manually adding back 9 and 11 will fix it temporarily, but there's a more permanent fix floating around... I think it involves a file atscprefs.xml maybe?

Sorry I can't be more specific, I'm in a bit of a hurry and just wanted to drop in that advice.

- Trip

There was a bad update sent out by Microsoft. Deleting and manually adding back 9 and 11 will fix it temporarily, but there's a more permanent fix floating around... I think it involves a file atscprefs.xml maybe?

Sorry I can't be more specific, I'm in a bit of a hurry and just wanted to drop in that advice.

- Trip

I just went through "Set Up TV Signal" again and 9-1 and 11-1 are still missing.

I think that I will get a TR-50 when it comes out and give up on Media Center.

Thanks for the info, Dan. That does help.

Just another question. How "directional" is a yagi type antenna? Since, the two major towers are about 13* apart according to antennaweb would a rotator need to be used with that type of antenna?

Anyway, thanks again.


Staticvision
It's directional, but how much depends on several things. For you, the fussy part is ch's 4-5-7-16. Ch's 9-11-22 are not behind the hill, so even if you mis aim it a bit, they will still come in okay. Just dial in ch 4 and the rest should be okay.
Dan

I just went through "Set Up TV Signal" again and 9-1 and 11-1 are still missing.

I think that I will get a TR-50 when it comes out and give up on Media Center.

Here are some links to help you out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13373004&postcount=4855
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13393009&postcount=5813

Remember that KCTS-DT is on physical channel 41, and KSTW-DT is on physical channel 36.

Hope it works for you!

- Trip

Greetings again from Duvall, WA.

Thanks for all the quick feedback and good advice (Trip you're my hero)!

Found a guide\fix that seems good for now here:

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/pnear/archive/2006/09/12/202708.aspx

The only difference from this guide is that in Vista MCE the channel guide data is in "c:\program data\microsoft\ehome\epg\prefs\"

In short, here's how the fix worked for me:

Edit the file atscprefs.xml in notepad, deleting completely the lines for the channels that aren't showing up.

Open mediacenter and go to guide-add missing channels. Manually add the channels you just deleted (using up to date channel data from titantv.)

At first blush it appears that the Zap2It guide data is currently attempting to use the post Feb 2009 switchover channel assignments for KCTS and KSTW

Thanks to all and especially Peter Near's blog.

I concur with buckfalfa, I think they were jumping the gun and posting the post-transition physical channels for KCTS, KSTW and KWPX. Not sure why KWPX was still working.

buckfalfa's instructions should work with the gotcha that the folder c:\ProgramData and the files atscperfs.xml and atscchannels.xml are hidden so you may have to do an advanced search to find any of them.

Peter Near's blog also explained when subchannels don't get any Guide information. The EPG from zap2it is only the analog Guide information. The guide information for the digital channels only works if the digital channel starts with the same callsign. In the vast majority of cases sub-channel 1 is the same as the analog channel so it appears to only work for sub-channel 1.

Zap2it also has guide information for all digital channels but that isn't the guide that we get with MCE :mad:

Hey Zyland,

Yeah, forgot to mention you'd need view hidden files enabled or an advanced search to get to those files.

Some advice on guide info for subchannels:
In Duvall, I use Accident's ATSC channel guide hack to get sub-channel listings.
http://www.accidentsworld.com/mceguides/vista-atschack.htm

I use the value "WA62449X" to get channel listings for Kirkland Comcast. The only channels I'm missing are Qubo and IonLife now (remember to restart after changing your registry settings for the channel guide.) It even auto-finds the correct listings for the sub-channels.

Gotta shake my head at all of these clugey registry hacks to get my multi-billion-dollar-in-the-making operating system to simply tune the correct channels and list the programming (and again, still no Qubo...)

I finally got those channels to work. It seems like you need to add a digital sub channel for the changes to take effect. All I did is change the physical channel to what it should be.

I don't know if your fix will stick allen98311 (I'm assuming from your post that you made the physical channel changes in your "atscchannel.xml" file, right?)

That other file gets updated when you re-download your channel guide. The "atscprefs.xml" will override the physical channel data because it overrules the downloaded file (according to Peter Near and from my observations.) So while the "astcchannel.xml" file that downloaded last night during my guide update incorrectly says KCBS is physical channel "9", my prefs file correctly overrides that designation with physical channel "41" which I force-fed to the prefs file in the Add Channels step.

Just follow Peter Near's guide for the best results, he gives a much better explanation of how this all works.

Hey Zyland,

Yeah, forgot to mention you'd need view hidden files enabled or an advanced search to get to those files.

Some advice on guide info for subchannels:
In Duvall, I use Accident's ATSC channel guide hack to get sub-channel listings.
http://www.accidentsworld.com/mceguides/vista-atschack.htm

I use the value "WA62449X" to get channel listings for Kirkland Comcast. The only channels I'm missing are Qubo and IonLife now (remember to restart after changing your registry settings for the channel guide.) It even auto-finds the correct listings for the sub-channels.

Gotta shake my head at all of these clugey registry hacks to get my multi-billion-dollar-in-the-making operating system to simply tune the correct channels and list the programming (and again, still no Qubo...)
Thanks buckfalfa,
After a couple of days of attempts (I kept getting "Error: 13" when attempting to download the new guide information), I got the "accidentsworld" hack to work.

I've added the Guide information for the following stations
5-2, 7-2, 9-2, 9-3, 9-5, 13-2 and even 42-1 (which doesn't have an analog channel OTA as far as the EPG is concerned)

Guide information that is still missing
20-2, 20-3, 20-4, 20-5, 28-2, 28-3, 28-4, 33-2, 33-3, 33-4, 45-2, 45-3 and 45-4.

Not perfect but now I have seven channels in the guide that weren't there before.

Thanks again.

Jeff
Might have some time Sunday afternoon.
Call me tomorrow.
Dan
206-794-3993

Hi Dan,
Thought I would give a update. Installed the CM 7777 pre-amp and tied both antennas using 10 ga instead of 18 ga. This did improve reception. Since you came out I raise the antenna to the roof at same location. I have at times been able to get all seattle locals they come in after 9pm or later then drop off 8am-10am except for channel 22.1 and Kong which stays longer. Any ideas on why?

Jeff

Hi Dan,
Thought I would give a update. Installed the CM 7777 pre-amp and tied both antennas using 10 ga instead of 18 ga. This did improve reception. Since you came out I raise the antenna to the roof at same location. I have at times been able to get all seattle locals they come in after 9pm or later then drop off 8am-10am except for channel 22.1 and Kong which stays longer. Any ideas on why?

Jeff

Jeff


Glad you got things working better.
When you start to experiment with stacking, anything can happen, good and bad. Your persistence is admirable and paying off!

The main culprit of all the problems, though, is your reception levels available at your home are just so weak. Your receiver is doing a great job with nothing, and we know it's not a bad antenna from trying others. Why the signal drop off in the AM? The only thing that makes any sense is just the noise level around you is worse during the day.

My experience has shown that the ideal range for level should be around +20db(about 20,000 microvolts) to 0db (about 1000 microvolts). Below about -15db (about 178 microvolts) most receivers just won't lock on a station because they can't pick out signal from noise. My main meter/analyzer can't read below -25db (about 46 microvolts). None of the Seattle stations there read above that minimum, so who knows how weak they really are. An amplifier will bring you back up in level, but adds its own noise, which doesn't help. Some receivers can work at very low levels, like yours, but reliability gets shaky.
Next year, when things switch over, play around with the VHF antenna, like we discussed, coupled with what you have, and the Dish channels, and I think you'll be okay.
As always, call anytime if you have questions.

Meanwhile, just watch TV at night and play during the day ;-)

Dan

Jeff


Glad you got things working better.
When you start to experiment with stacking, anything can happen, good and bad. Your persistence is admirable and paying off!

The main culprit of all the problems, though, is your reception levels available at your home are just so weak. Your receiver is doing a great job with nothing, and we know it's not a bad antenna from trying others. Why the signal drop off in the AM? The only thing that makes any sense is just the noise level around you is worse during the day.

My experience has shown that the ideal range for level should be around +20db(about 20,000 microvolts) to 0db (about 1000 microvolts). Below about -15db (about 178 microvolts) most receivers just won't lock on a station because they can't pick out signal from noise. My main meter/analyzer can't read below -25db (about 46 microvolts). None of the Seattle stations there read above that minimum, so who knows how weak they really are. An amplifier will bring you back up in level, but adds its own noise, which doesn't help. Some receivers can work at very low levels, like yours, but reliability gets shaky.
Next year, when things switch over, play around with the VHF antenna, like we discussed, coupled with what you have, and the Dish channels, and I think you'll be okay.
As always, call anytime if you have questions.

Meanwhile, just watch TV at night and play during the day ;-)

Dan

Hi Dan,
This will bug me until i find out what's causing the loss :)

Jeff

I live in west seattle at the corner of 30th ave & othello.

I've been using a zenith silver sensor for 2 years now and it's pretty amazing for a little antenna. My only complaint is that I can't get the seattle stations and FOX at the same time. I'd like an antenna that can pick up FOX (255 degrees) and the other stations (350 to 11 degrees) simultenously.

I'm considering the 4221 and the db4. I'd get a 4221 because of it's great reputation, but the db4 has a larger reported beamwidth.

I'm considering the 4221 and the db4. WSG: You can buy a CM 4221 at McLendon Hardware in Renton for $24.99 (HALF of what Fry's is charging). Have you found local stores carrying the DB4 or DB2?

WSG: You can buy a CM 4221 at McLendon Hardware in Renton for $24.99 (HALF of what Fry's is charging). Have you found local stores carrying the DB4 or DB2?

Good find!! Any idea how many they have there? Also, how about other McLendon's stores? Anyone?

I bought mine for around $25. YMMV.

Thanks for the price info. Maybe I'll just try it and return if it doesn't work. I'd rather save the hassle though if anyone has any advice about the beamwidth issue.

Good find!! Any idea how many they have there? Also, how about other McLendon's stores? Anyone?
McLendon's in Woodinville only has a yagi type antenna.

Thanks for the price info. Maybe I'll just try it and return if it doesn't work. I'd rather save the hassle though if anyone has any advice about the beamwidth issue.

WSeattleGuY

Have compared them, twice, in the field. The 4221 is better.
I use it all the time, and have gotten it to work in situations where the spread has been as much as 160 degrees!

Specifications that are published by manufacturers should be taken as "sort of what it will do". There are NO standards for how they're tested, so comparisons are not real. Among a particular manufacturers own products it has more relevance, but still, no test is going to duplicate the real world.

Be sure to seal the balun well, and tie it down so the leads don't twist together.

Dan

Hi Dan,
This will bug me until i find out what's causing the loss :)

Jeff

Jeff

Dude! Some things in this wacky world you just have to accept, and move on.
I've seen things I'll never explain.
Spent a month in Kona on Big Island doing a big custom install. All by my lonesome. I'm not into ghosts and wierd tales, but locals told me about Pele, and how she does things to let you know she's there. Yeah, sure. But I found my lost screwdriver in the trunk of the customers car I never used until the day I left! And it was UNDER the rubber floor mat !!
And other things would get moved around inside the condo, spooky.
Around here, found antennas would work lying on the ground better than in the air at some places, just by accident. Go figure.

Keep us updated, though. Never hurts to try stuff. Just don't loose sleep over it.

I'll stop by this summer when we go to the car show at the Yelm fairground.
Looking forward to the final result.

Dan

WSeattleGuY

Have compared them, twice, in the field. The 4221 is better.
I use it all the time, and have gotten it to work in situations where the spread has been as much as 160 degrees!

Dan

Thanks Dan. I'll give it a try and report back how it works.

Dan: I am using a 4221 inside my ground-floor condo unit, near a north-facing window. It does work better than indoor antennas, though I'm still trying to find a good spot for permanent placement. I would continue relying on Comcast but the OTA DTV visual PQ is significantly better than cable.

Any tips on how to obtain the best performance of the 4221 indoors, and best ways to design a permanent interior mounting for it?

Dan: Sorry for not getting back with an update sooner been very busy... Anyway Russ and I had some scheduleing conflicts, though he checked out my area via a torpo program. He told me that I have a 300 foot hill in my way. I'm thinking i'm out of luck until they switch to digital ch. 13 in 2009.

Mike

Jeff

Dude! Some things in this wacky world you just have to accept, and move on.
I've seen things I'll never explain.
Spent a month in Kona on Big Island doing a big custom install. All by my lonesome. I'm not into ghosts and wierd tales, but locals told me about Pele, and how she does things to let you know she's there. Yeah, sure. But I found my lost screwdriver in the trunk of the customers car I never used until the day I left! And it was UNDER the rubber floor mat !!
And other things would get moved around inside the condo, spooky.
Around here, found antennas would work lying on the ground better than in the air at some places, just by accident. Go figure.

Keep us updated, though. Never hurts to try stuff. Just don't loose sleep over it.

I'll stop by this summer when we go to the car show at the Yelm fairground.
Looking forward to the final result.

Dan

Dan,
Life to short to lose sleep over this. Something so easy as OTA reception shouldn't be so wacky.
Great see you in the summer.
Thanks,
Jeff

Need help guys.
OTA DTV
I'm in Bellevue, Newport Hills area (just south of 90 off 405)
I have a DB8 Bowtie antenna, 6 foot wide, and bring in alot of the channels from Seattle. The antenna is in my attic.
I also have a large 6 foot wide directional antenna in the attic that I initially started out with.
I have two tuners, both USB, one is a Fusion DTV and the other is a Cat Eye.
I updated to Vista about 8 months ago, and everything kept working...

I've changed nothing, nothing and its been working for over 2 years.
Now this past week channel 9 and 11 that normally come in are not coming in anymore.
The channel scanner has then as 1 red bar, where they used to be 5 green bars.

All the other channels still work.

These two channels are at a slight degree off.
1091 (9.1) is KCTS-DT and is at compass heading 290°
1111 (11.1) is KSTW-DT and is at compass heading 289°

The channels that we can get have a compass reading of 288°

Any idea what happened? of how to fix?

I bought mine for around $25. YMMV.

FWIW, McLendon's is an Ace Hardware store, although that is not prominently displayed.

Need help guys.
OTA DTV
I'm in Bellevue, Newport Hills area (just south of 90 off 405)
I have a DB8 Bowtie antenna, 6 foot wide, and bring in alot of the channels from Seattle. The antenna is in my attic.
I also have a large 6 foot wide directional antenna in the attic that I initially started out with.
I have two tuners, both USB, one is a Fusion DTV and the other is a Cat Eye.
I updated to Vista about 8 months ago, and everything kept working...

I've changed nothing, nothing and its been working for over 2 years.
Now this past week channel 9 and 11 that normally come in are not coming in anymore.
The channel scanner has then as 1 red bar, where they used to be 5 green bars.

All the other channels still work.

These two channels are at a slight degree off.
1091 (9.1) is KCTS-DT and is at compass heading 290°
1111 (11.1) is KSTW-DT and is at compass heading 289°

The channels that we can get have a compass reading of 288°

Any idea what happened? of how to fix?
Assuming this is only happening in Media Center, follow these directions

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/pnear/archive/2006/09/12/202708.aspx

The cause of your woe is MS changed the values for KCTS, KSTW and KWPX in a recent update.

Dan: I am using a 4221 inside my ground-floor condo unit, near a north-facing window. It does work better than indoor antennas, though I'm still trying to find a good spot for permanent placement. I would continue relying on Comcast but the OTA DTV visual PQ is significantly better than cable.

Any tips on how to obtain the best performance of the 4221 indoors, and best ways to design a permanent interior mounting for it?

seatacboy
No tips. It's all trial and error. What ever you use to hang it with, though, make sure it's not metal. Do they make clear duct tape ?!
Dan

seatacboy
No tips. It's all trial and error. What ever you use to hang it with, though, make sure it's not metal. Do they make clear duct tape ?!
Dan

I actually ran into this the other day. My neighbor bought a 4221 and intending on mounting it in his attic. When performing the trial-and-error aiming method, he discovered that in many cases he was aiming the antenna ninety degrees from the direction of a grouping of stations. Also he found that there was no particular sweet-spot in which he could get more than one or two stations at the same time.

After finally reaching his end, he was knocking at my door asking for help. Upon poking my head into the attic, I saw right away what the problem was. His attic insulation contained a reflective foil or mylar backing, rather than plastic or paper. Needless to say, the attenuation and reflections in his attic caused by the insulation created hundreds of reflection points, creating huge multipath problems for the receiver.

We pulled the 4221 out of the attic, and attached it to an old aluminum PA speaker tripod that I used to attach my 4228 antenna when I lived in an apartment years ago on the apartment deck. With the exception of KCPQ, he received a solid picture from most of the local stations from Seattle and West Tiger Mt. So we left the tripod on his deck, drilled a hole for the coax, ran the cable, and he was a happy camper.

Assuming this is only happening in Media Center, follow these directions

The cause of your woe is MS changed the values for KCTS, KSTW and KWPX in a recent update.

Zyland, this was it! Great articles, thanks.

Channel 9 and 11 were using the same number for their physical address, but should be using 41 and 36 respectively.

I actually ran into this the other day. My neighbor bought a 4221 and intending on mounting it in his attic. When performing the trial-and-error aiming method, he discovered that in many cases he was aiming the antenna ninety degrees from the direction of a grouping of stations. Also he found that there was no particular sweet-spot in which he could get more than one or two stations at the same time.

After finally reaching his end, he was knocking at my door asking for help. Upon poking my head into the attic, I saw right away what the problem was. His attic insulation contained a reflective foil or mylar backing, rather than plastic or paper. Needless to say, the attenuation and reflections in his attic caused by the insulation created hundreds of reflection points, creating huge multipath problems for the receiver.

We pulled the 4221 out of the attic, and attached it to an old aluminum PA speaker tripod that I used to attach my 4228 antenna when I lived in an apartment years ago on the apartment deck. With the exception of KCPQ, he received a solid picture from most of the local stations from Seattle and West Tiger Mt. So we left the tripod on his deck, drilled a hole for the coax, ran the cable, and he was a happy camper.

Kelly
Good job.
Looking for any part time work?!?!
Dan

Dan, what are you doing home so early?

I actually ran into this the other day. My neighbor bought a 4221 and intending on mounting it in his attic. When performing the trial-and-error aiming method, he discovered that in many cases he was aiming the antenna ninety degrees from the direction of a grouping of stations. Also he found that there was no particular sweet-spot in which he could get more than one or two stations at the same time.

After finally reaching his end, he was knocking at my door asking for help. Upon poking my head into the attic, I saw right away what the problem was. His attic insulation contained a reflective foil or mylar backing, rather than plastic or paper. Needless to say, the attenuation and reflections in his attic caused by the insulation created hundreds of reflection points, creating huge multipath problems for the receiver.

We pulled the 4221 out of the attic, and attached it to an old aluminum PA speaker tripod that I used to attach my 4228 antenna when I lived in an apartment years ago on the apartment deck. With the exception of KCPQ, he received a solid picture from most of the local stations from Seattle and West Tiger Mt. So we left the tripod on his deck, drilled a hole for the coax, ran the cable, and he was a happy camper.

Kelly
Just when you thought you've seen all the home brew antennas......
Check out this one.
It looks like someone might have known about the ch13 circular polarization, so they made this long "boom" with steering wheel attachment for a backplane. Hey, it's even adjustable for length for that razor sharp ultra narrow lobe ! Love the way it extends beyond the original boom in front, as well. Obviously future elements planned for more directivity. Think it was originally a 5 element high band VHF. Note the high tech coupler (twin lead direct connect full-flex-in-the-wind don't-need-no-stinking-trap adapter). This is located in NW Tacoma, on top of the hilltop above the old Asarco smelter site. Line of sight to everywhere. The piece of twinlead alone is probably good enough to pickup ch13.
Wanna bet it works like a champ?!?!
Gotta love it.
Dan

Dan, what are you doing home so early?

Dave
My customer was a no-show this afternoon. Sokay. Sun was out so I popped the sunroof and took a slow cruise through NW Tacoma near Proctor district and north. Lots of beautiful old homes up there, some with great views north and east. If I could just get those winning Lotto numbers........
Dan

Kelly
Just when you thought you've seen all the home brew antennas......
Check out this one.
It looks like someone might have known about the ch13 circular polarization, so they made this long "boom" with steering wheel attachment for a backplane. Hey, it's even adjustable for length for that razor sharp ultra narrow lobe ! Love the way it extends beyond the original boom in front, as well. Obviously future elements planned for more directivity. Think it was originally a 5 element high band VHF. Note the high tech coupler (twin lead direct connect full-flex-in-the-wind don't-need-no-stinking-trap adapter). This is located in NW Tacoma, on top of the hilltop above the old Asarco smelter site. Line of sight to everywhere. The piece of twinlead alone is probably good enough to pickup ch13.
Wanna bet it works like a champ?!?!
Gotta love it.
Dan

That is interesting Dan! It looks like they're using the "steering wheel" portion as a loop antenna, probably with wire run through the hoop. Wild, but inventive! Had I still been with my old girlfriend who lived in that area, it would be amusing to knock on his door and ask the owner what it was. I agree though, it appears to be a 400Mhz Yagi with a loop of some sort hung off the back.

So, does the circular polarization of KCPQ give you problems in setting up comsumer receivers? As you know, I've been pondering whether to make KOMO CP in 2009 when the old "batwing" comes down, mainly because of the promise of serving mobile devices. I'd be interested in your observations.

I notice that KIRO has switched their subchannel from 7.3 back to 7.2. Unfortunately, Directv hasn't updated their database (I sure wish they had included an OTA scan function in the HR2x DVRs) :mad:

By the way, the AM21 add-on tuner for the newer HR21 model works great (no they aren't available yet, but I was fortunate enough to be a field tester).

Bob

That is interesting Dan! It looks like they're using the "steering wheel" portion as a loop antenna, probably with wire run through the hoop. Wild, but inventive! Had I still been with my old girlfriend who lived in that area, it would be amusing to knock on his door and ask the owner what it was. I agree though, it appears to be a 400Mhz Yagi with a loop of some sort hung off the back.

So, does the circular polarization of KCPQ give you problems in setting up comsumer receivers? As you know, I've been pondering whether to make KOMO CP in 2009 when the old "batwing" comes down, mainly because of the promise of serving mobile devices. I'd be interested in your observations.


Kelly

Geeze, let me take a deep breath......
One of my favorite quotes to answer the KCPQ question is from the movie, 6 Days, 7 Nights, when Harrison Ford and Anne Heche have just climbed the mountain to find the radio beacon transmitter to turn off so they can get rescued, and then discovers he's on the wrong island. He walks over to some bushes and all you see is the branches shaking like mad, and he's growling, "....rafashamma fruzzle gawfammll slummsrugginn %#$*@!!!!!!....."

Yeah, like that.
They came up with this great idea to eliminate ghosting, supposedly like they do in Europe, using circular polarization. Or so their engineer told me some twenty+ years ago. Actually worked pretty good as long as you used the Channel Master special cut for 13 antenna, with all the X elements running down the boom, and one pair in a loop near the end. Loops looked like a half size version of Rat Shacks old omni FM, only mounted vertically, like all the directing elements

http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?cPath=&products_id=6056

It was about 6ft or 7ft in length. Coupled it with a metal boxed signal injector from Channel Master or Pico Macom, awesome. Very clean analog.
FastForward to 1990.
No more antennas. They said demand was low, so they just stopped making them.
Great. I tried about every cut for 13 antenna I could find, even VHF or High Band ones, all gave the same ghosty results. The final " Okay, ya got me " was the Market Place Condo's on 1st Ave, a few blocks north of Pike Place Market. I'm at least 300ft or more above sea level, line of sight, literally, to Gold Mt. 12ft long cut for 13 from AntennaCraft. About the biggest bad boy I could find. Signal level over 40db !!!
Ghost city. Arrrrrggggghhh......

I digress. Long pull on Tulleys Intense Dark Mocha........

FastForward to 1997, HD arrives. COOL! Don't need no stinking analog stuff anymore. Never worried about it again. Their ch18 is normal horizontal pattern.

There's only one other time I've played with circular AND HD. Some years back, when Magnolia was expanding in the Bay area, I installed a 4248 yagi and 7775 preamp on their store in Santa Clara. I was mainly trying for the major networks, which all came from Sutro in SF, to the NW, about 40+ miles away. When I looked up all the other local HD stuff around, was surprised to find several low power circular HD UHF stations. Some were coming from the NE on Mt Allison, others from SW on Loma Prieta. All off axis on the big yagi. I wish I could remember which ones they were, but they came in great. Not a normal thing on a 4248. Waveshape looked good, too. One was low power, one was smokin hot, probably from Mt Allison. They were Spanish stations, a lot of them around the Bay area, so I didn't pay them much further attention, as the major networks came in fine.
I believe I did a search on FCC for everything in a radius from there, North Winchester Blvd and Meridian, Santa Clara. I had never done any installs down there prior, so wanted to find ALL the possibles. Think there was something like 60 in a 40 mile radius. If you can find out which ones they were, I can call the Magnolia boys down there and ask them to tune in and check out the station manually. I know which antenna types and at which locations, which would help with directionality. We also did one at Roseville, NE of Sacramento, which brings into play all those monster tall towers in the delta SW of there, another set of stations.....

Or..... we could take a paid vacation and do some research ! At the intersection of Winchester Blvd and Meridian, Santa Clara, is Tony & Alba's, best darn Italian food and pizza's around ! And of course, In & Out Burgers.....Getting hungry again....
Talk to the suits upstairs and see if they'll spring !!

Dan

I notice that KIRO has switched their subchannel from 7.3 back to 7.2. Unfortunately, Directv hasn't updated their database (I sure wish they had included an OTA scan function in the HR2x DVRs) :mad:

By the way, the AM21 add-on tuner for the newer HR21 model works great (no they aren't available yet, but I was fortunate enough to be a field tester).

Bob

rdn
How did KOMO come in for you with the AM21? Wasn't that your problem station?
One of my customers is working with Direct and Thomson on those tuners back in NYC. He wasn't able to snag one for testing, but will soon. Said they were shooting for a $59 price.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AM21
He's in a tough location, so should be a good indicator when he calls me back.
Dan

rdn
How did KOMO come in for you with the AM21? Wasn't that your problem station?
One of my customers is working with Direct and Thomson on those tuners back in NYC. He wasn't able to snag one for testing, but will soon. Said they were shooting for a $59 price.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AM21
He's in a tough location, so should be a good indicator when he calls me back.
Dan

I have only been running it on a small antenna inside the house so far (I need to make another trip into the crawl space) so no luck yet with KOMO. I may move it to the other room where I can access the rooftop antenna. When I get a chance to check it out I'll report back. The box is made by Pace, not Thomson and uses the ATI Theater 311 chipset.

I have only been running it on a small antenna inside the house so far (I need to make another trip into the crawl space) so no luck yet with KOMO. I may move it to the other room where I can access the rooftop antenna. When I get a chance to check it out I'll report back. The box is made by Pace, not Thomson and uses the ATI Theater 311 chipset.

Tech support at DirecTV told me today that the AM21 has been delayed, yet again, till early May ('08 I hope).

That is what the folks at dbstalk.com are also saying. The software upgrade to support the AM21 is in the latest "cutting edge" version, but that has non-related issues which need to be fixed before it can be rolled out to everyone.

I moved my Directv HR21 and AM21 into the room where the outdoor antenna feed comes in. Comparing the OTA performance to the HR20, there is definitely an improvement. I still cannot get reception from KOMO, but the signal level on 51-1 (KUNS) has gone from 36-41% to 53-59%. I now get a reading on 56-1 (KWDK), although it is not enough to display any video.

There are a few locations on the roof where I can get a usable signal from KOMO, but some of the other channels have problems if I do that. Since Directv is carrying KOMO in HD, I'm willing to compromise with that one (it will probably improve quite a bit after the transmitting antenna is relocated next year).

I need a recommendation for a antenna that has a wide front area of reception so that is does on need to be rotated for about 90 degrees, and I need an antenna installer.

I am in a house (rental), and as a result I really can't but a big directional antenna with rotator on the house. However, I am hoping that something may exist that will cover the upper VHF and all the UHF with good reliability.

I am located just south of Everett and get channels 4, and 5 in HD, everything else is in NTSC and of good to poor (channel 7) quality. I am getting all this on a 2 foot whip antenna sitting by a window on the second story of a two story home.


Thanks for your help

Trying to watch OTA on a Mac

I need a recommendation for a antenna that has a wide front area of reception so that is does on need to be rotated for about 90 degrees, and I need an antenna installer.

I am in a house (rental), and as a result I really can't but a big directional antenna with rotator on the house. However, I am hoping that something may exist that will cover the upper VHF and all the UHF with good reliability.

I am located just south of Everett and get channels 4, and 5 in HD, everything else is in NTSC and of good to poor (channel 7) quality. I am getting all this on a 2 foot whip antenna sitting by a window on the second story of a two story home.


Thanks for your help

Trying to watch OTA on a Mac

bshifley
A 4221 is small enough it can usually fit in a small to medium size window, is very wide on reception. Obviously you're going to be limitied on results, because you can only place it in a window. If you want to get creative, and figure out ways to mount it outside without causing the landlord grief, results will be better. VHF HD is another story. There's nothing being transmitted right now, so there's no way of checking it out for what would or wouldn't work (No, what you get in NTSC is not a good indicator of HD reception). The 4221 is cheap enough to get you by for now, and might work next year for VHF HD.
We'll all have to cross that bridge in Feb08. Gonna be interesting !
Dan

VHF HD is another story. There's nothing being transmitted right now, so there's no way of checking it out for what would or wouldn't work (No, what you get in NTSC is not a good indicator of HD reception). The 4221 is cheap enough to get you by for now, and might work next year for VHF HD.
We'll all have to cross that bridge in Feb08. Gonna be interesting !
Dan

I thought channel 4 and 5 were transmitting their news now in HD, or am I mistaken?

I thought channel 4 and 5 were transmitting their news now in HD, or am I mistaken?

The news on channel 5 is HD, while I believe that channel 4 and 7 have news in widescreen SD, upconverted to 720p and 1020i, respectively. These are not VHF, however. The digital signal for KOMO (4.1) is on channel 38, KING (5.1) on channel 48 and KIRO (7.1) on channel 39.

Cool, I was unaware of that info. Maybe you folks could help me out on one other issue? Does FOXNW have an OTA? If so, what is there call sign?

Fox Network programming on analog channel 13 has OTA HTDV on real channel 18.

Fox Sports Northwest has no OTA channel, just via cable and satellite.

Channel 7 is saying that their news is in HD at the begging of the newscast.

Channel 7 is saying that their news is in HD at the begging of the newscast.

I haven't checked recently. I recall hearing that they were upgrading their studio equipment and it may be in place now.

Edit: According to Wikipedia, the change occured March 16.

Hi Dan,
I'm getting higher signals from seattle found I needed to point antenna more West 345-350 degs. Still playing around with it. 16.1 and 22.1 are hitting 68 during the early AM. still drops out in the late morning.
Dan could you please upload a picture of your 8 bay channel master. I would like to see the cross tie between both Antennas. I've looked at them on the web but can get a good enough look on how it leaves one side to the other side.
Thanks
Jeff

Hi Dan,
I'm getting higher signals from seattle found I needed to point antenna more West 345-350 degs. Still playing around with it. 16.1 and 22.1 are hitting 68 during the early AM. still drops out in the late morning.
Dan could you please upload a picture of your 8 bay channel master. I would like to see the cross tie between both Antennas. I've looked at them on the web but can get a good enough look on how it leaves one side to the other side.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff
Lost your e-mail. Sending you a private message
Dan

I thought channel 4 and 5 were transmitting their news now in HD, or am I mistaken?KING went HD last year. KIRO went HD a few weeks ago. KOMO remains wide screen SD.

With both KING and KIRO, most field material remains SD. Studio cameras, graphics, and weather are HD. KING's helicopter and one Towercam are also HD.

Good news! McLendon Hardware (http://www.mclendons.com/) in Renton sells the Channel Master 4221 four-bay for $24.99.

Thanks stboy. I picked one up there yesterday. For anyone interested, there were 3 more left at the end of aisle 25.

I set it up temporarily indoors and it picks up everything BUT fox. Frustrating, but hopefully I'll get fox when it's up in it's permanent position.

I'm revisiting the idea of OTA HD for home which is probably still in a major shadow, but wanted to see if anyone is having any success yet. I live in Fall City just a couple blocks off the Snoq & Raging River in one of the original Fall City homes. I can see Tiger #2 & #3 plus most of Mitchell hill from my house. I did a home made DB4 and hooked it up to my Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. I am only able to see a few handful of stations and non of the major ones. Would this 4221 antenna help me out? Or am I still SOL?

Does anyone know if the Seattle stations will be boosting their OTA HD output come Feb?

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks stboy. I picked one up there yesterday. For anyone interested, there were 3 more left at the end of aisle 25.

I set it up temporarily indoors and it picks up everything BUT fox. Frustrating, but hopefully I'll get fox when it's up in it's permanent position.

I bought one there this evening. It looked like the stack on top of the rack had 5 or 6 left.

Thanks stboy. I picked one up there yesterday. For anyone interested, there were 3 more left at the end of aisle 25.

I set it up temporarily indoors and it picks up everything BUT fox. Frustrating, but hopefully I'll get fox when it's up in it's permanent position.

WSeattleGuY
Fox is in it's permanent position. It will change frequencies next year, but you might still get it, being so close. From most places in W Seattle, you need to get that antenna out side where it can see some of ch13, which is almost due west. The antenna doesn't have to point that direction, just split the difference between 13 and the rest ot the stations downtown. Unless you have a big building, or other obstructions in that direction, it should work. Obviously, if you're by the Luna Cafe, you're screwed by the hill. If you're on top of the hill, though, usually okay.
Dan

I'm revisiting the idea of OTA HD for home which is probably still in a major shadow, but wanted to see if anyone is having any success yet. I live in Fall City just a couple blocks off the Snoq & Raging River in one of the original Fall City homes. I can see Tiger #2 & #3 plus most of Mitchell hill from my house. I did a home made DB4 and hooked it up to my Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. I am only able to see a few handful of stations and non of the major ones. Would this 4221 antenna help me out? Or am I still SOL?

Does anyone know if the Seattle stations will be boosting their OTA HD output come Feb?

Cheers,
Mike

Mike
Send some cross streets so we can identify, and then give you a better idea of what to expect. I doubt anyone will be boosting their power. Power amount will change downward for ch's 9, 11 & 13, because they're going to a much lower frequency, but it's relative. It takes far less power to cover the same distance. We'll have to wait and see how well it actually works out. One thing I've learned in all this HD reception, it will surprise you and make you rethink a lot of old "theory", good and bad !
Dan

Does anyone know what is going to happen to channels 4, 5, 7, and 12 after February 2009?

If you are asking what will be on those channels, I don't know. If you are asking about the plans of the TV stations who currently broadcast on those channels, here's what they have announced:

KOMO, KING, KIRO, and KVOS have elected to remain on their current DTV channels and will be abandoning their traditional analog channel numbers on 4, 5, 7, and 12.

KOMO = 38
KING = 48
KIRO = 39
KVOS = 35

Other stations such as KCPQ, KSTW, and KCTS are moving their digital transmissions from their current DTV channels to their traditional analog numbers.

KCTS = 9 (Currently 41 on DTV)
KCPQ = 13 (Currently 18 on DTV)
KSTW = 11 (Currently 36 on DTV)

So, KING 5 will no longer be on channel 5 after the switch but Q13 will still be on channel 13. I have not seen any information about how stations like KOMO, KING, KIRO, and KVOS will handle PSIP information.

There's a link to an Excel spreadsheet with all of the DTV elections in the country HERE. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12890633#post12890633)

KOMO, KING, KIRO, and KVOS have elected to remain on their current DTV channels and will be abandoning their traditional analog channel numbers on 4, 5, 7, and 12.
KOMO = 38
KING = 48
KIRO = 39
KVOS = 35
Other stations such as KCPQ, KSTW, and KCTS are moving their digital transmissions from their current DTV channels to their traditional analog numbers.
KCTS = 9 (Currently 41 on DTV)
KCPQ = 13 (Currently 18 on DTV)
KSTW = 11 (Currently 36 on DTV)
So, KING 5 will no longer be on channel 5 after the switch but Q13 will still be on channel 13. I have not seen any information about how stations like KOMO, KING, KIRO, and KVOS will handle PSIP information.

I wish the post-transition stations in the Seattle DMA would map to their real OTA channels rather than to fictitious, non-existent virtual numbers.

A key reason is the huge geographic coverage of the Seattle DMA, many parts of which also will receive some DTV station reception from the Vancouver, B.C. area or from the Portland DMA. Problems arise when two DTV channels from different DMAs "remap" to the same virtual channel number.

Examples from TV Fool:

From Vancouver Island: CHEK-DT 43 from Victoria/Salt Spring Island's Real DTV channel 43 will PSIP to virtual channel 13.1. Needless to say, this may cause headaches for KCPQ 13's OTA viewers in Whatcom, Skagit, San Juan, Island and Clallam counties.

CHAN-TV-6 (Digital) will PSIP to virtual channel 51.1, creating a virtual-channel conflict with high-powered KUNS Univision from Bellevue also at 51.1

From Portland: KPXG real 4 maps to virtual 22.1 - conflicting with KMYQ real 25 virtual 22.1.

KPTV (Digital) real chanel 30 remaps to 12.1 - conflicting with KVOS real 35 virtual 12.

More about Canada: The CRTC and Heritage Canada are charged with increasing Canadian viewership of Canadian-sourced TV stations and reducing Canadian viewership of U.S.-sourced TV stations. It's conceivable they could assign PSIP virtual channels to BC Lower Mainland & Vancouver Island stations mirroring their placement on Lower Mainland cable TV systems, to-wit: CIVI (analog UHF 17 or 53) is cable 12, CBUFT (analog 26) is cable 7, CIVT (analog 32, DTV 33) is cable 9, CHNM (analog 42) is cable 8, CHAN (analog 8, soon to be DTV 22) is cable 11.

PSIP channel remapping of DTV channels in neighboring DMAs could create real problems for OTA viewers in the Seattle DMA, particularly at times when there are atmospheric fluctuations or when the flukes of our hill-and-water geography provide equally-strong DTV channels mapping to the same "virtual channel". This is compounded by the various Class A, Low Power and translator stations which may switch over to DTV transmission and also play the "PSIP remapping" game.

Imagine being a Whidbey Island viewer trying to tune KCPQ-DT 13.1 but being unable to view the channel because of CHEK-DT's 13.1 PSIP, or a Tumwater viewer attempting to tune KMYQ 22.1 but being thwarted by PSIP signal from Portland's KPXG 22.1.

The stations I can pick up from Canada are CHEK (Global from Victoria), CBUT (CBC from Vancouver) and CKVU (CityTV from Vancouver). Kinda disappointed I cannot pick up CTV, but maybe by the time the Olympics come to town they will up their wattage. According to this Canadian DTV forum (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42734&page=41), CHAN-DT from Vancouver should be coming on any day now.

Per TV Fool, CHAN-DT will be real Channel 22 (virtual 8.1) at a Max EIRP 550.000 KW. Per Northwest Broadcasters (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm), CHAN-DT transmits Mt. Seymour at 670 metres HAAT. CHAN-DT probably will impossible to get in King County due to co-channel interference from KMYQ analog 22, but CHAN-DT may be viewable in Snohomish County areas which can receive the existing CHAN analog 8.

P.S. CHAN-DT is the Global Canwest affiliate for BC, long branded locally as "BCTV". CHEK-TV is owned by Global Canwest but is a different network brand. CHEK-DT is a future station for real channel 43, apparently the PSIP map will be 13.1 (which might conflict with KCPQ 13.1 in some areas of northwest Washington).

Good grief! This almost makes Directv's system of using downloaded guide data for OTA instead of scanning look like a superior system!

According to this Canadian DTV forum (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42734&page=41), CHAN-DT from Vancouver should be coming on any day now.

Per TV Fool, CHAN-DT will be real Channel 22 (virtual 8.1) at a Max EIRP 550.000 KW. Per Northwest Broadcasters (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm), CHAN-DT transmits Mt. Seymour at 670 metres HAAT. CHAN-DT probably will impossible to get in King County due to co-channel interference from KMYQ analog 22, but CHAN-DT may be viewable in Snohomish County areas which can receive the existing CHAN analog 8.

P.S. CHAN-DT is the Global Canwest affiliate for BC, long branded locally as "BCTV". CHEK-TV is owned by Global Canwest but is a different network brand. CHEK-DT is a future station for real channel 43, apparently the PSIP map will be 13.1 (which might conflict with KCPQ 13.1 in some areas of northwest Washington).

I've been keeping my eye on that forum as well. When the word is out that they are broadcasting, I'll have to point my antenna their way and see what happens.
I don't think the co-channel thing will be an issue, either one of my receivers should just tune 22 and display it as 8.1. My guess is that in this type of situation, the tuner will go to whatever station I type in, so 22 will bring me to 22, 22.1 would bring me to 8.1, and so on.

WSeattleGuY
Fox is in it's permanent position. It will change frequencies next year, but you might still get it, being so close. From most places in W Seattle, you need to get that antenna out side where it can see some of ch13, which is almost due west. The antenna doesn't have to point that direction, just split the difference between 13 and the rest ot the stations downtown. Unless you have a big building, or other obstructions in that direction, it should work. Obviously, if you're by the Luna Cafe, you're screwed by the hill. If you're on top of the hill, though, usually okay.
Dan

I'm up by high point behind the fire station at othello & 35th. I'm having trouble getting 13 (18.1) still, but I'm working on it. The downtown stations come in rock solid even if I set the 4221 on the ground facing up!!

I'm up by high point behind the fire station at othello & 35th. I'm having trouble getting 13 (18.1) still, but I'm working on it. The downtown stations come in rock solid even if I set the 4221 on the ground facing up!!


WSeattleGuY
You're in a great spot. Unless there's a house or huge tree next to you. should be no problem. Google Earth shows nothing but houses. Just get the antenna out where it can see due west. It doesn't have to be pointed there, just so signal can get to it. Point it towards the Junction, and you chould be fine. It only has to be high enough to see over your neighbors house to the west.
Dan

According to this Canadian DTV forum (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42734&page=41), CHAN-DT from Vancouver should be coming on any day now.

Per TV Fool, CHAN-DT will be real Channel 22 (virtual 8.1) at a Max EIRP 550.000 KW. Per Northwest Broadcasters (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm), CHAN-DT transmits Mt. Seymour at 670 metres HAAT. CHAN-DT probably will impossible to get in King County due to co-channel interference from KMYQ analog 22, but CHAN-DT may be viewable in Snohomish County areas which can receive the existing CHAN analog 8.

P.S. CHAN-DT is the Global Canwest affiliate for BC, long branded locally as "BCTV". CHEK-TV is owned by Global Canwest but is a different network brand. CHEK-DT is a future station for real channel 43, apparently the PSIP map will be 13.1 (which might conflict with KCPQ 13.1 in some areas of northwest Washington).

seatacboy
I think you're putting a bit too much worry in all this.

First, there are a LOT of hills and trees around here to deal with in signal reception, all of which soak up signal.
Second, the curvature of the earth factors in.
Third, distance is an obvious problem, in addition to power and frequency.

I did a quick basic test near Capital Peak in Olympia, called Larch Mt, at 2500ft elevation. I couldn't see Portland at all at 110 miles, even though technically it's line of sight, with any of three different antennas. Seattle at 66 miles came in, but just fair, KVOS at 120 miles showed a whisper, no Victoria as it was hidden behind the Olympics, and no Vancouver BC, analog or digital. Also, from the north tip on Camano Island, 535ft elevation, same check, saw nothing of Vancouver. Victoria came in, weak, Seattle was barely there, because of trees.

It IS technically possible to get Seattle from Vancouver BC, but you really have to be in the right spot with the right stuff. And you can get some Vancouver analog from there, but very, very weak. That doesn't mean HD will come in.

In general, reception around the Sound ain't easy. High spots with line of sight and no trees are few and transmitting patterns that are favored in certain directions make the worry about channel overlap very low, if at all. When KONG first came on the air in HD ch31, it was smoking hot. I did a survey just north of Kingston and it was great. A year later, at a job near Clinton, everything came in but KONG, which was very weak. I called their station and they said they went to back up power because Victoria was complaining about interference. They would be back to full power, but with a different pattern antenna that cut out the NW direction, soon. That was years ago. Haven't been able to talk to them since, no one returns calls. Power is better, but still falls off that way.

The point is, if a station does cut across the border, I'm sure the FCC will step in, specially if they cut into a local area's pattern. The remapping issue will be very interesting, agreed. With competing $tation$, though, my money $ay$ it be allowed for very long !

Finally, when you view a transmitter's site info, forget about HAAT, height above average terrain. There are stations, both high and low, that make that kind of useless for figuring out reception. It just says what the surrounding area looks like, lots of hills, or on one tall point, with nothing surrounding it. KNTV, from San Jose, used to come from Loma Prieta mountains, 3800ft elevation, but had a HAAT of only a 150ft or so. KING ch5 here is at 900ft elevation, but has a HAAT of about 750ft. KNTV would go a lot further up the Bay Area because of that 3800ft location, even though the power level was low. The number you want to look at is the AMSL, height above mean sea level. And for the antenna geeks, check out KVIE in Sacramento. All the locals there transmit from the Delta, SW of the city. It's only a few feet above sea level, so the towers are monsters at 1500 to 1800ft above sea level ! The engineer there told me they actual have an equipment shack about the 1400ft level. Wowser. Going up there for work has to be a real ride. Makes the hairs on my neck stick out ! Kind of like this picture. Some real macho antenna dudes!
Dan

I did a quick basic test near Capital Peak in Olympia, called Larch Mt, at 2500ft elevation. I couldn't see Portland at all at 110 miles, even though technically it's line of sight, with any of three different antennas. Seattle at 66 miles came in, but just fair, KVOS at 120 miles showed a whisper, no Victoria as it was hidden behind the Olympics, and no Vancouver BC, analog or digital. Also, from the north tip on Camano Island, 535 ft elevation, same check, saw nothing of Vancouver. Victoria came in, weak, Seattle was barely there, because of trees.

It IS technically possible to get Seattle from Vancouver BC, but you really have to be in the right spot with the right stuff. And you can get some Vancouver analog from there, but very, very weak. That doesn't mean HD will come in.......In general, reception around the Sound ain't easy. Dan, very good points. As a hobby, I carry a 1985-vintage Panasonic battery-powered 5" analog B&W TV (middling sensitivity and so-so alternate channel selectivity, but very good PQ) in the trunk of my car to test local reception.

From Olympia, I obtained weak fringe reception from the north side of the Temple of Justice (looking northbound over Budd Bay) on CHAN-8 and CKVU-10, while a similarly very weak signal on KING-5 or KOMO-4 - one third of the distance away. From a residential area in Lacey south of St. Martin's University, I recall getting fringe reception on KGW-8 and (occasionally) KPTV-12. I've been to the Black Hills/Capital Forest area and am puzzled at the lack of PDX OTA reception on Larch Mtn.

Ages ago, I lived in Seattle's North Beach/Blue Ridge neighborhood, down at the bottom of the hill close to the water. NTSC OTA reception there was quite peculiar: the nearby Seattle stations experienced very severe image distortion from the geography, but we received very clean images from KVOS, CKVU, K62FS (KSTW translator in Port Townsend) as well as viewable fringe reception on CBUT, CHEK, CHAN and (in the early 1990s) CBUFT. I had a professional antenna installer put up a 30-foot mast and rotor to get the Seattle stations.

ATSC DTV reception patterns are quite different than NTSC analog. My interest in this topic came from the TV Fool report that the future CHEK-DT 43 would remap to 13.1, creating some potential headaches for viewers of KCPQ 13.1 in the north Puget Sound. Perhaps my post here will alert KCPQ to the issue.

The problem of channel re-mapping is more likely to be a worse PIA in congested areas of the northeastern U.S.

Mike
Send some cross streets so we can identify, and then give you a better idea of what to expect. I doubt anyone will be boosting their power. Power amount will change downward for ch's 9, 11 & 13, because they're going to a much lower frequency, but it's relative. It takes far less power to cover the same distance. We'll have to wait and see how well it actually works out. One thing I've learned in all this HD reception, it will surprise you and make you rethink a lot of old "theory", good and bad !
Dan

I am hoping to get as many HD channels as possible but understand there may be some limitations.

My house is at the 337th PL SE & SE 44th PL.

Here are Antennaweb predictions.

Hey all,
I just installed my first antenna on my roof a few weeks ago. My nearest cross street is 31st Ave SE and 96th PL SE, about 2 miles east of I-5 down a hill a bit. I have a CM 4778 on an eave mount, about 5ft above the roof of my two story house. I'm only interested in the local HD channels. I tried aiming the best I can towards Seattle, with a few trees in the way, and here's what I got:

9.1, 9.2, 13.1 - No Reception
4.1 - Poor Reception
5.1, 7.1, 11.1 - Fair Reception

As for VHF, I get 5, 7, and 11 good, I fairly get 9 and 13, and I do not get 4.

So my question is, to improve 4.1 reception, and/or get 9.1 and 13.1, should I try to extend my antenna another 5ft (since I have additional mast I can attach), or wait until the local stations start digital broadcasting using VHF in 2008, or readjust my direction (which I already tried, but coarsely), or should just accept what I have?

Anyone around my area experienced the same problem? I'm a newbie at this. I got tired of paying 50 bucks a month for watching local HD channels.

ADD: I'm in Everett.

Hey all,
I just installed my first antenna on my roof a few weeks ago. My nearest cross street is 31st Ave SE and 96th PL SE, about 2 miles east of I-5 down a hill a bit. I have a CM 4778 on an eave mount, about 5ft above the roof of my two story house. I'm only interested in the local HD channels. I tried aiming the best I can towards Seattle, with a few trees in the way, and here's what I got:

9.1, 9.2, 13.1 - No Reception
4.1 - Poor Reception
5.1, 7.1, 11.1 - Fair Reception

As for VHF, I get 5, 7, and 11 good, I fairly get 9 and 13, and I do not get 4.

So my question is, to improve 4.1 reception, and/or get 9.1 and 13.1, should I try to extend my antenna another 5ft (since I have additional mast I can attach), or wait until the local stations start digital broadcasting using VHF in 2008, or readjust my direction (which I already tried, but coarsely), or should just accept what I have?

Anyone around my area experienced the same problem? I'm a newbie at this. I got tired of paying 50 bucks a month for watching local HD channels.


Phazeshift78
What city or area?
Dan

I am hoping to get as many HD channels as possible but understand there may be some limitations.

My house is at the 337th PL SE & SE 44th PL.

Here are Antennaweb predictions.

mbcracken
You're toast.
You're in the shadow of the Samammish Plateau. You would get the channels from Tiger Mt, 51, 45, 33 but none of the major ones.
Sorry
Dan

Phazeshift78
What city or area?
Dan

I'm in Everett... doh.. forgot to mention that..

mbcracken
You're toast.
You're in the shadow of the Samammish Plateau. You would get the channels from Tiger Mt, 51, 45, 33 but none of the major ones.
Sorry
Dan

Dang! I can pretty get those channels plus a couple more odd ball ones. I guess I'll keep paying Comca$t.

Cheers,
Mike

I'm in Everett... doh.. forgot to mention that..

Phazeshift78
The area is not that bad on paper, but have done many surveys out there, and a few tough installs. The trees, for at least a few miles, are the big problem. You can sometimes get one or two channels, but then loose others. Get those coming in and then loose the first ones. Height might help, but I found it didn't make much difference. The local trees are very high. I found yagi type antennas worked better there. CH13 is tougher, because it's farther away, and off axis a bit from Seattle channels. The few installs I've done there required a separate antenna. Since ch13 is moving their frequency next year, which would require a different type of antenna, you may want to wait on a solution.
You could just order limited basic cable for $12 to $13/mo from Comcast, if they serve your area. If your tuner or TV is a QAM type, or cable card ready, you won't have to pay the extra charge for the cable company tuner. If not, the Samsung H260 will also tune cable in. Cost's about $180. It won't let you tune the scrambled HD channels, but the local HD is in the clear.
Dan

Dang! I can pretty get those channels plus a couple more odd ball ones. I guess I'll keep paying Comca$t. Don't feel bad, I'm resigned to keeping Comcast limited cable service because of RFI originating from Sea-Tac Airport affecting reception from the Queen Anne and Capitol Hill transmitters.

If the only stuff I watched was FOX, ION, TBN and Univision, I'd have it made in the shade - but the reception challenges of our hilly terrain are part of why cable TV market penetration is so high in the Seattle DMA.

Don't feel bad, I'm resigned to keeping Comcast limited cable service because of RFI originating from Sea-Tac Airport affecting reception from the Queen Anne and Capitol Hill transmitters.

If the only stuff I watched was FOX, ION, TBN and Univision, I'd have it made in the shade - but the reception challenges of our hilly terrain are part of why cable TV market penetration is so high in the Seattle DMA.

seatacboy
Curious, what RFI at the airport is bothering you?
Dan

Dan: The RFI is a bit mysterious but has long caused strange patterns on OTA analog. I live about a mile east of the airport, slightly higher in elevation than the airport itself. It might be the radar and air-traffic control equipment, and perhaps just the planes taking off and landing - or a combination of the two. Any ideas on something I (and my fellow homeowners) can do to overcome these problems?

Fairly frequent signal breakup on KOMO, KING, KIRO and KONG (Queen Anne Hill).
Periodic signal breakup on KCTS, KSTW, KMYQ (Capital Hill)
Rare signal breakup on KBTC, KCPQ, KTBW (Downtown Tacoma and Gold Mountain)
Solid signal on KWPX, KUNS, KHCV (West Tiger)

Dan: The RFI is a bit mysterious but has long caused strange patterns on OTA analog. I live about a mile east of the airport, slightly higher in elevation than the airport itself. It might be the radar and air-traffic control equipment, and perhaps just the planes taking off and landing - or a combination of the two. Any ideas on something I (and my fellow homeowners) can do to overcome these problems?

Fairly frequent signal breakup on KOMO, KING, KIRO and KONG (Queen Anne Hill).
Periodic signal breakup on KCTS, KSTW, KMYQ (Capital Hill)
Rare signal breakup on KBTC, KCPQ, KTBW (Downtown Tacoma and Gold Mountain)
Solid signal on KWPX, KUNS, KHCV (West Tiger)

seatacboy
I'm very familiar with airport problems and analog. Our business was near Des Moines in late 60's to early 80's. The two most common problems were the signal locators for the glide path beacons, located due north and south of the runways, and picture shimmer or shaking when airplanes went overhead.
The beacons caused a constant beeping on ch5 audio in the background, if your antenna was weak, and you were near one, or had bad cable fittings on your cable TV system. The shimmer was caused by a weak antenna and the signal bouncing from the passing aircraft would cause a beating effect from the two signals, which would slow and speed up the shimmer as the plane passed.

Since digital transmission started late 97, I've installed and worked on many HD antenna installs all around the area of the airport. I've not seen any problems from either of the analog causes. I have seen many antennas that were not adequate for the install, or had other related problems. When you get borderline reception, they will work great one minute, and then hiccup, or freeze, and then work fine again for hours or minutes. All the signal problems you describe are right on with a hill or trees to the north of you in the way, and an antenna that's barely getting the job done.

McMicken Heights from 176th north is usually pretty good, but in the gully south of there towards the schools it gets spotty. Once you get over the hill at about 40th or Military Road to the freeway, it gets spotty. And in the gully north of the old Lewis & Clark it's obviously bad. There are no airport comm systems I've heard of that are in that area. Most are at the airport or north/south of the runways.
Further, in 2001, when Boeing moved the AOG into the north tower on the highway, next to the 13Coins tower, we were worried about the very same RFI thing. (I called Boeing Networking support my part time job!) There are some small repeaters on the towers that might have caused problems with all the wireless headsets they used at the desks. We had an outside vendor do a complete sweep of the building in all directions for anything that might cause problems from 30mhz up to 2.7gig. Found nothing but extremely small amounts of 900mhz and some 2nd and 3rd order harmonics from the taxi repeaters operating in the 160mhz range. Again, nothing to even hint at worrying about.

If there were any signals strong enough to cause problems for you, I know the FCC and people operating the aircraft and airport comm systems would know about it too, and be all over it.

So, what antenna are you using now, and what's your cross streets?

Dan

Phazeshift78
The area is not that bad on paper, but have done many surveys out there, and a few tough installs. The trees, for at least a few miles, are the big problem. You can sometimes get one or two channels, but then loose others. Get those coming in and then loose the first ones. Height might help, but I found it didn't make much difference. The local trees are very high. I found yagi type antennas worked better there. CH13 is tougher, because it's farther away, and off axis a bit from Seattle channels. The few installs I've done there required a separate antenna. Since ch13 is moving their frequency next year, which would require a different type of antenna, you may want to wait on a solution.
You could just order limited basic cable for $12 to $13/mo from Comcast, if they serve your area. If your tuner or TV is a QAM type, or cable card ready, you won't have to pay the extra charge for the cable company tuner. If not, the Samsung H260 will also tune cable in. Cost's about $180. It won't let you tune the scrambled HD channels, but the local HD is in the clear.
Dan

You're stating that all the local OTA channels will be in HD over Comcast for $15 bucks when the transition happens? I've read somewhere that Comcast already has the digital channels over basic cable? Is this true?

You're stating that all the local OTA channels will be in HD over Comcast for $15 bucks when the transition happens? I've read somewhere that Comcast already has the digital channels over basic cable? Is this true?
Yes it's true. No need to wait. local OTA HD channels are currently part of Comcast's limited basic package. As Dan mentioned, you will need a unencrypted QAM tuner to watch them. The "AVS Forum>HDTV>Local HDTV Info and Reception>Seattle, WA - Comcast" discusses this in more detail.

Okay, maybe I requested my coupons too soon but I will have to make some decisions in the next few weeks and many of you folks seem pretty knowledgeable (brownie points!). I have not yet investigated what kind of box to get, if any. So while this is not necessarily on-point, I do use ota and will continue to do so with any converter box(es).

Any recommendations? Any to stay away from?

Yes it's true. No need to wait. local OTA HD channels are currently part of Comcast's limited basic package. As Dan mentioned, you will need a unencrypted QAM tuner to watch them. The "AVS Forum>HDTV>Local HDTV Info and Reception>Seattle, WA - Comcast" discusses this in more detail.
Not too sure about that. I know this guy who had some sort of package which includes ESPN etc. but when he got a new TV with clear QAM decoder he could not find any of the local HD channels (in the 100's or 110's I believe).

A general question on reception of King5 in the Kent/Covington area. I recently helped a friend of mine near SE 282 and 144 SE do an under-eave mount of the RS 2160. Pointing NNW, we got all of the majors, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16 and 22. All were good with the exception of King5 which was somewhat choppy with S/N around 40%. As a reference, Kiro7 was at or close to 100%.

I wonder if anyone in the area has similar experience? Would King5 being the highest channel suffer more from some sort of interference? While this is currently bearable, I am just baffled about the experience.

DTV transition ad should read: converter box + rabbit ear = Good luck!

-tq

Not too sure about that. I know this guy who had some sort of package which includes ESPN etc. but when he got a new TV with clear QAM decoder he could not find any of the local HD channels (in the 100's or 110's I believe).It is definitely true. It's also an FCC requirement. The channel mappings move around at Comcast's whim, although most stations include PSIP information which maps them to their usual analog postions - KOMO shows up as 4.1, KING as 5.1, and so on.

Not too sure about that. I know this guy who had some sort of package which includes ESPN etc. but when he got a new TV with clear QAM decoder he could not find any of the local HD channels (in the 100's or 110's I believe).

Here are the latest clear QAM mappings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13296715#post13296715

Okay, maybe I requested my coupons too soon but I will have to make some decisions in the next few weeks and many of you folks seem pretty knowledgeable (brownie points!). I have not yet investigated what kind of box to get, if any. So while this is not necessarily on-point, I do use ota and will continue to do so with any converter box(es).

Any recommendations? Any to stay away from?

I have two Zenith DTT900s. They have proven to do very well with both low signal strength (which I have on 12 and 28) and strong multipath reflections (which I have on everything from Capitol and Queen Anne Hills).

FWIW, I use Silver Sensor antennas with them. (Not the newer Zenith model, but the older one from Antiference.)

Okay, maybe I requested my coupons too soon but I will have to make some decisions in the next few weeks and many of you folks seem pretty knowledgeable (brownie points!). I have not yet investigated what kind of box to get, if any. So while this is not necessarily on-point, I do use ota and will continue to do so with any converter box(es).

Any recommendations? Any to stay away from?

There are several threads in the HDTV Reception Hardware area of avsforum.com - some threads have reviews and ratings as well as what the usual retailers carry. There seems to be quite a wide range of quality in these CECB's. Some are total crap.

Here are the latest clear QAM mappings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13296715#post13296715
Looks like I am out of touch. Thanks. I was looking at Comcast website line-up and it was a different set of listing.

Looks like I am out of touch. Thanks. I was looking at Comcast website line-up and it was a different set of listing. The Comcast website lists the channel assignments it uses on its set top boxes. QAM channel assignments are different and Comcast won't even acknowledge they exist.

A general question on reception of King5 in the Kent/Covington area. I recently helped a friend of mine near SE 282 and 144 SE do an under-eave mount of the RS 2160. Pointing NNW, we got all of the majors, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16 and 22. All were good with the exception of King5 which was somewhat choppy with S/N around 40%. As a reference, Kiro7 was at or close to 100%.

I wonder if anyone in the area has similar experience? Would King5 being the highest channel suffer more from some sort of interference? While this is currently bearable, I am just baffled about the experience.

DTV transition ad should read: converter box + rabbit ear = Good luck!

-tq

I live north of your friend in the Fairwood West area. I used to get all of the Seattle tower stations and KCPQ on Gold Mountain near Bremerton with my RS 15-2160. In the past year or so, KOMO-DT has reached a point where we don't get it anymore.

I have experimented with a Channel Master 4221, moving it around the back of my house. At a lower elevation than the RS antenna, I have not yet found one spot that gets all of the channels (I don't care about the channels on Tiger Mountain, even though they are direct line-of-site from my rooftop.

As I move the antenna around, I lose one or two channels in each spot. There are two lines of tall evergreen trees that are almost in line with the path to Seattle from my house. I was hoping that moving the antenna could find a sweet spot, between the rows of trees, but so far no luck. Maybe with decent weather this Saturday I can try from the rooftop, which gets me about 15 more feet of elevation.

As Dan K and quarque and others have reported, moving an antenna very short distances, even inches, can sometimes make a big difference in reception.

Looks like I am out of touch. Thanks. I was looking at Comcast website line-up and it was a different set of listing.

tuquet, et al
I believe the channel numbers the QAM's pick up and map to are the real cable frequencies. When I put my meter to Cable mode (cable frequency channel mapping) and measure, I see the channel carriers at the same channels numbers. I can't break out the actual -1, -2, etc, but can see levels and freq's. So, 85-2 on my Samsung QAM is KING HD, and the frequency is about 590mhz, ch85 cable freq. Ch5 HD over air is ch48 UHF and starts at 677mhz. Just like KING HD having several sub channels active, -1 & -2, the QAM mapping breaks them out, but not necessarily in order. It's also why you'll see a lot of blank channels sometimes when you do a scan. The carrier is active, but no actual programming is there. When I did my first scan, there were dozens and dozens of blank channels. On some customers sets, they only showed a few. Go figure. As for why the odd mapping order, who knows. I'm sure they're just putting the local HD wherever they can find space, and at the lowest frequencies possible. The higher the freq, the more the loss, big problem in cable world.
You will also see the analog versions of the local channels as well. KING standard def maps to 79-4, or did. Been a while since I hooked mine up. In any case, great way to get around the extra cost of their cable box.

What does make it frustrating, though, is they keep moving things around, from time to time, and some of my users have Prontos or other programmable remotes, so I have to fix the macro's for them. Thanks Comcast.

Mr. pastiche is my hero for keeping everyone, like me, up to date on the mapping, Thank You Sir! Saves me a bunch-O-time.
Dan

A general question on reception of King5 in the Kent/Covington area. I recently helped a friend of mine near SE 282 and 144 SE do an under-eave mount of the RS 2160. Pointing NNW, we got all of the majors, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16 and 22. All were good with the exception of King5 which was somewhat choppy with S/N around 40%. As a reference, Kiro7 was at or close to 100%.

I wonder if anyone in the area has similar experience? Would King5 being the highest channel suffer more from some sort of interference? While this is currently bearable, I am just baffled about the experience.

DTV transition ad should read: converter box + rabbit ear = Good luck!

-tq

tuquet
That's a fairly good area, but you do skim across the hilltop for a few miles and that can wreak havoc with some channels. No one in particular, just depends on your location. It's very important to get it up above the roof if you're having those kinds of problems. Location, as Dave mentioned, can be very picky. I have them working all around you, though, six within a 1/4 mile radius. Some were fussy, some slam dunk. Patience is the key. You may need a preamp, too. The 2160 is just okay for gain, and ch5 is the highest in frequency, most loss, and it's pattern is a bit weaker in your direction, as well. You might just be on the ragged edge of level. Try a Rat Shack preamp. If it doesn't help, you can return it.
Dan

I live north of your friend in the Fairwood West area. I used to get all of the Seattle tower stations and KCPQ on Gold Mountain near Bremerton with my RS 15-2160. In the past year or so, KOMO-DT has reached a point where we don't get it anymore.

I have experimented with a Channel Master 4221, moving it around the back of my house. At a lower elevation than the RS antenna, I have not yet found one spot that gets all of the channels (I don't care about the channels on Tiger Mountain, even though they are direct line-of-site from my rooftop.

As I move the antenna around, I lose one or two channels in each spot. There are two lines of tall evergreen trees that are almost in line with the path to Seattle from my house. I was hoping that moving the antenna could find a sweet spot, between the rows of trees, but so far no luck. Maybe with decent weather this Saturday I can try from the rooftop, which gets me about 15 more feet of elevation.

As Dan K and quarque and others have reported, moving an antenna very short distances, even inches, can sometimes make a big difference in reception.

Dave
It's been over a year since I did any work in Fairwood, and was somewhat surprised at not being able to get decent signal at a survey there. Lots of level, just really chopped up by trees. Similar experience of fussy location. Trees were certainly in play, but still.....
Maybe it's time you moved Sommerset, above Factoria. Great views and rabbit ears work like a champ!
Offer still stands......
Dan

Thanks everyone for chiming in with great info. I did find that K5 was very sensitive while the rest were quite resilient. Lucky that it was only one channel so I could find a satisfactory position for it while not affecting others.

One thing I find in this installation and at my house is that I needed to point the antenna a little up and that made a huge difference from the horizontal position on a vertical mast. Also at my house, in Kenmore, there are a few large maples in the way and I needed to lower my antenna to about 7' off the ground for the best reception.

Gook luck Dave in your quest for Komo. BTW, at my friend's, Komo was more than decent and very stable.

Dan, is the 15-1170 the pre-amp you would use? I guess my friend will have to live without it as his splitter is outside of the house and it does not seem to be a good place to install the power injector.

I think each region should have an antenna farm for all stations or eventually most would abandon Tiger mountain. I would like to have PAX but would not go through the trouble to get it. The same goes with KBTC. I assume many are in the same boat.

On QAM, I guess I should have been more patient and let the TV scan for the channels.

-tq

I'm new to DTV, as just got my converter box yesterday.

I'm on top of Queen Anne hill (although in a basement apartment) about 2 blocks west of TJ's.

I usually get (in analog) 4,5,7,9,11,13,16,22,28,51 (and a few others totally not interested in at all).
In DTV I'm getting only 9.1,9.2,9.3,9.5, all the time.
Sometimes 4.1,5.1,5.2,7.1,7.2,11.1,22.1.
I can't get 13.1,13.2,28.1,28.2,28.3,28.4,45.2,45.3,51.1 (I really would like to get the last 3 as I'm trying to learn Spanish by watching TV and think that they are Azteca and Univision) at all and I even bought a new amplified indoor antenna when I purchased the converter box.

I have my tv/antenna by my sliding glass door in the south side of the apartment. Is there a way to get at least the Seattle stations so close by without an outdoor antenna?

BTW, the amplified antenna works just as well unplugged as plugged in and no different if I plug it in to my TV without the converter box (for analog reception).

Thank you.

First this should be posted in the Seattle OTA thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=254620

...and will probably be moved there.

With that said, Queen Anne Hill is a hot spot OTA wise with KOMO-4, KING-5, KIRO-7 and KONG-16 all broadcasting from there. FYI, KIRO uses the tower at Galer/QA Ave. KING/KONG the tower on the Lake Union side and KOMO in the middle.

Being so close to the transmitters, not to mention the other communications on QA, you are likely suffering from TOO MUCH signal, it's overloading the box.
One possible solution is to go to Radio Shack and ask to buy an TV attenuator, about $4, what it will do is "scale" back the amount if signal to the box and should improve the situation...or just buy a simple bowtie UHF antenna, about $5, and fiddle around finding the sweet spot.

Good Luck

On QAM, I guess I should have been more patient and let the TV scan for the channels.
In some cases, the scan won't pick up all channels but you can type in the channels by hand if you know where they are. That's where pastiche's qam mapping document becomes very handy.

Recently, I had to set my mom up with a new HDTV (Sharp Aquos) in the Portland OR area. She gets Comcast. The Portland, OR - Comcast AVS forum doesn't have a hero like pastiche, so I had to figure it out for myself.

Fortunately, I found this wonderfull resource at www.silicondust.com that displays snapshots of all the 8VSB and unencrypted QAM channels that are available by zip code. Very handy. With this I got the QAM channel mappings and was able to type them in by hand even though the scan didn't detect them.

Thank you for the information.

I'm sorry I didn't understand how to post.

What about the non-Queen Anne stations, will I be able to get them once I get an attenuator and bow tie antenna?

I live north of your friend in the Fairwood West area. I used to get all of the Seattle tower stations and KCPQ on Gold Mountain near Bremerton with my RS 15-2160. In the past year or so, KOMO-DT has reached a point where we don't get it anymore.

I have experimented with a Channel Master 4221, moving it around the back of my house. At a lower elevation than the RS antenna, I have not yet found one spot that gets all of the channels (I don't care about the channels on Tiger Mountain, even though they are direct line-of-site from my rooftop.

As I move the antenna around, I lose one or two channels in each spot. There are two lines of tall evergreen trees that are almost in line with the path to Seattle from my house. I was hoping that moving the antenna could find a sweet spot, between the rows of trees, but so far no luck. Maybe with decent weather this Saturday I can try from the rooftop, which gets me about 15 more feet of elevation.

As Dan K and quarque and others have reported, moving an antenna very short distances, even inches, can sometimes make a big difference in reception.

Dave - when I was getting to my "final straw" with OTA I used 2 antennnas and a combiner. It worked better than either single antenna in any of a dozen locations. One was on the roof and one was in my living room (for ch 13). The cables were nowhere close to the same length either! All this was on an old Sammy SIR-T150. The newer tuners put it to shame now (about 5 generations newer).

I fear the trees are just getting too thick in many areas. I had decent reception at my chimney with 1 antenna for 3 years. Then it started going downhill. I screwed around for another year trying different things and could never get all the channels I wanted to be solid for long peroids of time. Ended up going cable (Comcraptic). Expensive but it IS more reliable for me. And I get things like ESPN in HD which is nice.

Anyway, give the combiner a shot. If you need to borrow a second antenna I have a 15-2160 and a 4221 not doing much these days. One is a dust collector, the other is a bird perch.

Dan and Quarque, thanks for the offers. I may be calling on you soon.

Dan, I have a new job in Issaquah, so Somerset would not be so bad. But we will likely either stay here or downsize the house part and up-size the lot. I don't have enough room to park my fifth wheel trailer at home. I did, however, replace the analog TV in the fifth wheel with a 32" LCD HDTV. Many of the RV parks we visit have cable TV (complete with QAM digital channels) and WiFi. I think we might be spoiled a bit, but what the heck. We worked all our lives and now we get to enjoy a little.

Dan/Zyland -

And to think that I typed up that QAM list a few years ago as nothing more than a cheat-sheet for the living room. :-)

I'm glad my poor memory has proven to be to everyone's benefit! :-D

Thanks everyone for chiming in with great info. I did find that K5 was very sensitive while the rest were quite resilient. Lucky that it was only one channel so I could find a satisfactory position for it while not affecting others.

One thing I find in this installation and at my house is that I needed to point the antenna a little up and that made a huge difference from the horizontal position on a vertical mast. Also at my house, in Kenmore, there are a few large maples in the way and I needed to lower my antenna to about 7' off the ground for the best reception.

Gook luck Dave in your quest for Komo. BTW, at my friend's, Komo was more than decent and very stable.

Dan, is the 15-1170 the pre-amp you would use? I guess my friend will have to live without it as his splitter is outside of the house and it does not seem to be a good place to install the power injector.

I think each region should have an antenna farm for all stations or eventually most would abandon Tiger mountain. I would like to have PAX but would not go through the trouble to get it. The same goes with KBTC. I assume many are in the same boat.

On QAM, I guess I should have been more patient and let the TV scan for the channels.

-tq

tuquet
Well, you could use that preamp. If the splitter passes DC, which most do, then you could put the preamp outside, and the power injector inside. Trick is to put a voltage blocker on the other output leg of the splitter. Looks like a small version of the preamp, an inline inch long thing. Passes all signals, but keeps the other TV from shorting out the power injector.
Not the swiftest preamp out there, but should give you enough to get over the minimums there, if that is indeed the problem. If not, you know it's a location related problem, not strength.
Dan

I contacted Radio Shack on QA and they said they don't carry bow tie antennas and had never heard of an attenuator and said he did a search and couldn't find it.

Any other ideas?

thank you.

Dan and Quarque, thanks for the offers. I may be calling on you soon.

Dan, I have a new job in Issaquah, so Somerset would not be so bad. But we will likely either stay here or downsize the house part and up-size the lot. I don't have enough room to park my fifth wheel trailer at home. I did, however, replace the analog TV in the fifth wheel with a 32" LCD HDTV. Many of the RV parks we visit have cable TV (complete with QAM digital channels) and WiFi. I think we might be spoiled a bit, but what the heck. We worked all our lives and now we get to enjoy a little.


Dave
Hey, enjoy.
There's always a way to make reception happen. Have one customer waaayyyy out in Cherry Valley, north of Duvall, climbed a 75ft tree and ran 100 yards or more of cable, but it worked !
Keep on surfin' !
Dan

It appears that Radio Shack disco'd the item but a web search turned up a reseller that has them.

http://www.markdownalley.com/showitem.cfm?itemid=1471&source=froogle

Thank you.

I found the attenuator but not the antenna on that site. I will try to call them this afternoon.

Hey Dan,


On that Cherry Valley install, were you able to pull in both the Bellevue and Seattle stations with a fixed antenna?

I'm on Miller Street at about 500ft. elevation in Duvall and while I can get great reception on either the Seattle stations or the Bellevue stations, I can't pull them all in at the same time with a fixed antenna. I've bought and tried the 4221, 4228 (both on a 7777 signal amplifier) but have had the best luck with an old radio shack VHF\UHF boom antenna so far (once I got a spot where there was a clear shot through the trees.)

My last resort is going to be a combined 4221 and boom antenna (since the 7777 can combine different UHF and VHF antennas) but I doubt it will solve losing the bellevue stations at a fixed direction.

Any advice you can offer would be great!

Okay, maybe I requested my coupons too soon but I will have to make some decisions in the next few weeks and many of you folks seem pretty knowledgeable (brownie points!). I have not yet investigated what kind of box to get, if any. So while this is not necessarily on-point, I do use OTA and will continue to do so with any converter box(es)..........Any recommendations? Any to stay away from?Fred, I have two Zenith DTT-900 boxes and overall am very impressed. I am still working on getting a rooftop antenna for my condo, but in the meantime, am quite impressed with this Zenith's performance in a ground-level condo. PM me if like.

seatacboy
I'm very familiar with airport problems and analog. Our business was near Des Moines in late 60's to early 80's. The two most common problems were the signal locators for the glide path beacons, located due north and south of the runways, and picture shimmer or shaking when airplanes went overhead.
The beacons caused a constant beeping on ch5 audio in the background, if your antenna was weak, and you were near one, or had bad cable fittings on your cable TV system. The shimmer was caused by a weak antenna and the signal bouncing from the passing aircraft would cause a beating effect from the two signals, which would slow and speed up the shimmer as the plane passed.

Since digital transmission started late 97, I've installed and worked on many HD antenna installs all around the area of the airport. I've not seen any problems from either of the analog causes. I have seen many antennas that were not adequate for the install, or had other related problems. When you get borderline reception, they will work great one minute, and then hiccup, or freeze, and then work fine again for hours or minutes. All the signal problems you describe are right on with a hill or trees to the north of you in the way, and an antenna that's barely getting the job done.

McMicken Heights from 176th north is usually pretty good, but in the gully south of there towards the schools it gets spotty. Once you get over the hill at about 40th or Military Road to the freeway, it gets spotty. And in the gully north of the old Lewis & Clark it's obviously bad. There are no airport comm systems I've heard of that are in that area. Most are at the airport or north/south of the runways.
Further, in 2001, when Boeing moved the AOG into the north tower on the highway, next to the 13Coins tower, we were worried about the very same RFI thing. (I called Boeing Networking support my part time job!) There are some small repeaters on the towers that might have caused problems with all the wireless headsets they used at the desks. We had an outside vendor do a complete sweep of the building in all directions for anything that might cause problems from 30mhz up to 2.7gig. Found nothing but extremely small amounts of 900mhz and some 2nd and 3rd order harmonics from the taxi repeaters operating in the 160mhz range. Again, nothing to even hint at worrying about.

If there were any signals strong enough to cause problems for you, I know the FCC and people operating the aircraft and airport comm systems would know about it too, and be all over it.........So, what antenna are you using now, and what's your cross streets?Dan Currently using various indoor antennas - I am in a condo and will be talking with neighbors about putting up a rooftop antenna. I've used several different indoor antennas with varying degrees of success. For a week, I used a Channel Master 4201 but its size seemed to make it difficult to find a spot to avoid multipath when used indoors. I gave it to my parents and it works marvelously at their location - definitely will consider another 4201 for an outdoor antenna.

Until getting a rooftop antenna up, today I'm evaluating a Philips Silver Sensor PHDTV1 which is giving me the best signal I've ever gotten on KBTC (90-95%) and the best stable picture I've ever gotten on KSTW and KCTS (70-80%).

Okay, maybe I requested my coupons too soon but I will have to make some decisions in the next few weeks and many of you folks seem pretty knowledgeable (brownie points!). I have not yet investigated what kind of box to get, if any. So while this is not necessarily on-point, I do use ota and will continue to do so with any converter box(es).

Any recommendations? Any to stay away from?

Fred, I have two Zenith DTT-900 boxes and overall am very impressed. I am still working on getting a rooftop antenna for my condo, but in the meantime, am quite impressed with this Zenith's performance in a ground-level condo. PM me if like.

Fred - I bought an Insignia box, which is just a re-badged LG box like seatacboy's. My first box failed, but it may have been my own fault, since I stacked it on top of another component and it may have overheated. I exchanged it for a new one, and in it's new place alone with plenty of ventilation, has been performing flawlessly. It was very easy to set up and will breath new life into any old TV.
As you may be aware after reading through a few posts in this forum, digital TV isn't quite as easy as analog. You have to be getting a suitable signal or you have nothing to watch. So, be prepared that you may have to make a few more adjustments to your set-up before your watching all the same channels you're used to receiving via analog.
Once you settle on a box and get everything dialed in, let us know what your reception results are.

Hey Dan,


On that Cherry Valley install, were you able to pull in both the Bellevue and Seattle stations with a fixed antenna?

I'm on Miller Street at about 500ft. elevation in Duvall and while I can get great reception on either the Seattle stations or the Bellevue stations, I can't pull them all in at the same time with a fixed antenna. I've bought and tried the 4221, 4228 (both on a 7777 signal amplifier) but have had the best luck with an old radio shack VHF\UHF boom antenna so far (once I got a spot where there was a clear shot through the trees.)

My last resort is going to be a combined 4221 and boom antenna (since the 7777 can combine different UHF and VHF antennas) but I doubt it will solve losing the bellevue stations at a fixed direction.

Any advice you can offer would be great!


buckfalfa
I didn't do the actual install for that one. I did a survey, told them what they would need if they wanted to try. NO WAY am I going up 75ft trees ! They called back and said it worked. It was a 4248 yagi and 7775 preamp.
Most of the installs I've done on the hill above Duvall have been yagi's and preamps. The bow tie styles worked sometimes, but most locations there liked the yagi. It could be because the signals that do get there go through the trees on Union Hill across the valley.
The Rat Shack antenna UHF portion is a yagi style. It's probably not working as well just because of it's small UHF size, and no preamp. If you try to combine the antennas, the 7777 has filters that keep the two bands separate. When you connect the combo antenna to the VHF portion of the preamp, it will stop the UHF part from passing through. The other UHF antenna will work fine through the UHF port on the preamp, of course, but you won't see any change.
Channels 4-5-7-9-11-13-16-22 all come form the same direction for you, west southwest. There are no towers in Bellevue. Ch's 33-45-51 come from the south of you.
Try connecting the combo antenna to the UHF port and see what happens. Location is very important for you. Try different spots and elevations as well as direction.
Dan

Hei, I'd like to use the OTA decoder in the Dish DP301 without activating service or connecting to a dish. I hope to just attach a 4224 to the Antenna In on the DP301. Would this work?

If not, could I do this with a cheep DirecTV receiver? Goal is to get OTA as cheeply as possible.

Also, I have a new silver remote (137174 Pro 6.2), but it doesn't control the DP301. I've tried the 1 & 2 keys, A & B, etc, but it will not power down the receiver. The instrictions say use the Sys Info button to program the remote, but there is none on the DP301.

Any advice?

Goal is to get OTA as cheeply as possible.

Any advice?

How about getting a coupon and picking up one of the new CECB boxes for free (or nearly free)? The better ones have very good tuners and might work better than your dish receiver.

The friend of mine in Kent picked up an RCA box at Walmart. It is a very simple box but with a heck of a reception. With the antenna fixed at NNW, he now got most from Tiger mountain and 20.x in addition to the usual. I am impressed!

buckfalfa
I didn't do the actual install for that one. I did a survey, told them what they would need if they wanted to try. NO WAY am I going up 75ft trees ! They called back and said it worked. It was a 4248 yagi and 7775 preamp.
Most of the installs I've done on the hill above Duvall have been yagi's and preamps. The bow tie styles worked sometimes, but most locations there liked the yagi. It could be because the signals that do get there go through the trees on Union Hill across the valley.
The Rat Shack antenna UHF portion is a yagi style. It's probably not working as well just because of it's small UHF size, and no preamp. If you try to combine the antennas, the 7777 has filters that keep the two bands separate. When you connect the combo antenna to the VHF portion of the preamp, it will stop the UHF part from passing through. The other UHF antenna will work fine through the UHF port on the preamp, of course, but you won't see any change.
Channels 4-5-7-9-11-13-16-22 all come form the same direction for you, west southwest. There are no towers in Bellevue. Ch's 33-45-51 come from the south of you.
Try connecting the combo antenna to the UHF port and see what happens. Location is very important for you. Try different spots and elevations as well as direction.
Dan


Excellent, thanks for the great advice Dan! Yeah, I didn't mention that I'm running the rat shack boom through the "combined signal" option on the 7777 pre-amp at present (a nice feature of the 7777.)

Couple more questions:

1. FM trap- in or out (and what does this do?)

2. Where can I purchase a 4248 in the Seattle area?

Thanks again Dan! Your advice on the Yagi is a huge help!

Excellent, thanks for the great advice Dan! Yeah, I didn't mention that I'm running the rat shack boom through the "combined signal" option on the 7777 pre-amp at present (a nice feature of the 7777.)

Couple more questions:

1. FM trap- in or out (and what does this do?)

2. Where can I purchase a 4248 in the Seattle area?

Thanks again Dan! Your advice on the Yagi is a huge help!

buckfalfa
You're welcome.
1. Doesn't matter, nothing is in the frequency band (88-108mhz) that would bother you. The switch is for stopping herringbone interference in the ch2 to 6 VHF low band when you amplify the analog signal. Harmonics have always been a problem in big analog distribution, but that's one of the benefits digital signals eliminate. The default setting, I believe, is IN, stopping the FM amplification. Next year, when ch's 9-11-13 go to the VHF high band, 170 to 230mhz, it will be interesting to see what really happens. With digital transmission, I've learned to keep an open mind for any wierdness!
2. I don't know anyone locally selling 4248's, all the wholesaler suppliers for antenna electronics seem to have dried up years ago. Fry's have some antennas, and you apparently have to get the salespeople to go into the back room to verify stock, so don't take no for an answer. And be sure to specify forty two FORTY eight, NOT forty two TWENTY eight, big difference.
I know on line there are sellers, like Starks, that have them. If you can't find one, I can arrange to get you one of mine. It will cost more, though, as I don't get the big break those guys get. Call me if you need that option.

Also, you might want to rewire the setup, for now, if you're going to combine the combo antenna with a UHF antenna. I realize that once you get this setup installed you want to leave it alone. However, since no one is actually transmitting any digital signal in the VHF high band, or from the actual antenna location, you might want to install a trap for VHF frequency. The reason is amplifiers are not picky. They amplify everything. If you get some strong VHF harmonics, they could get up into the UHF range, and cause the tuners gain control to turn down, which in effect, counters all the gain in the UHF range you need. Small thing, but when you are playing with antennas and don't have a meter, it can help. Small price for cheap fix, too. Get a 75ohm UHF/VHF splitter and a 75ohm terminator from Rat Shack. Just before the receivers input is where it goes. The antenna signal goes into the splitter input, the terminator on the VHF output, and a short cable from the UHF output to the receivers input. The loss is very little, no where near a 2way splitter. Then, next year, you can just remove it. If you suddenly start having problems, then you know the UHF part is okay. You only have to troubleshoot the VHF part.

Dan
206-794-3993

How about getting a coupon and picking up one of the new CECB boxes for free (or nearly free)? The better ones have very good tuners and might work better than your dish receiver.

I would love to, but I have applied several times over the past year, and received nothing. Zero.


buckfalfa
Get a 75ohm UHF/VHF splitter and a 75ohm terminator from Rat Shack. Just before the receivers input is where it goes. The antenna signal goes into the splitter input, the terminator on the VHF output, and a short cable from the UHF output to the receivers input. The loss is very little, no where near a 2way splitter. Then, next year, you can just remove it. If you suddenly start having problems, then you know the UHF part is okay. You only have to troubleshoot the VHF part.

Great idea Dan!

I would love to, but I have applied several times over the past year, and received nothing. Zero.
you can check the status here of when you should expect the coupon

https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx

If you don't remember the reference number that should have been displayed when you applied, you can try your address. They are being mailed in a staggered fashion around a month later.

AH, thank you zyland!

Your application has been approved. Based on your application approval date of 03/28/2008, your coupon(s) are/were scheduled to mail on 05/09/2008.

I'd applied on Jan 1st, but apparently they've lost that one.

A few lucky folks in north Puget Sound might now be getting reception from Vancouver's new high-output DTV channel, CHAN-DT (Global BC) (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84662).

A few lucky folks in north Puget Sound might now be getting reception from Vancouver's new high-output DTV channel, CHAN-DT (Global BC) (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84662).

seatacboy
Well, you're right, some may get it, but at a whopping 8.3kw output for ch22UHF, that's not much. Ch22 here is at 1000kw. KBTC Tacoma PBS is at 6.7kw, ch27. It's pretty hard to get it unless you're line of sight. I have picked it up at 30 miles, but level was weak. CHAN Vancouver does have the advantage of being on a high mountain at about 3300ft elevation. Distance to Queen Anne Hill, for reference, is about 110 miles. There are no other mountains between there and QA hill, but you do have the curvature of the earth. It might be right on the horizon, and I was measuring from the top of QA hill at 450ft elevation. Anything's possible, but from the north end of Camano Island, on a hilltop at 350ft elevation, I could barely see ch22 Seattle KMYQ, and it was line of sight. I tried last fall from the same spot to see Victoria and Vancouver HD channels, not even a whisper. Would be fun to get them. Some BC stations are on or very near our same channels, though, so it would be hard to pick them up with the locals drowning them out. Info for them
http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations/BC.html
Dan

you can check the status here of when you should expect the coupon

https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx

If you don't remember the reference number that should have been displayed when you applied, you can try your address. They are being mailed in a staggered fashion around a month later.


zyland
Thanks for that. Kind of forgot about my application. Natch, they don't find it.
Apply again......
Dan

zyland
Thanks for that. Kind of forgot about my application. Natch, they don't find it.Apply again......Dan Dan, have you had a chance to try out any of the new CECBs?

seatacboy
Well, you're right, some may get it, but at a whopping 8.3kw output for ch22UHF, that's not much. Ch22 here is at 1000kw. KBTC Tacoma PBS is at 6.7kw, ch27. It's pretty hard to get it unless you're line of sight. I have picked it up at 30 miles, but level was weak. CHAN Vancouver does have the advantage of being on a high mountain at about 3300ft elevation. Distance to Queen Anne Hill, for reference, is about 110 miles. There are no other mountains between there and QA hill, but you do have the curvature of the earth. It might be right on the horizon, and I was measuring from the top of QA hill at 450ft elevation. Anything's possible, but from the north end of Camano Island, on a hilltop at 350ft elevation, I could barely see ch22 Seattle KMYQ, and it was line of sight. I tried last fall from the same spot to see Victoria and Vancouver HD channels, not even a whisper. Would be fun to get them. Some BC stations are on or very near our same channels, though, so it would be hard to pick them up with the locals drowning them out. Info for them
http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations/BC.html
Dan Sounds like the reason the Canadian forums are crowing about CHAN-DT (Global) is that the 8.3kW output is drastically more than the measly 900 watt output from CIVT-DT (the CTV affiliate). Possibly CHAN-DT can be picked up in the Bellingham area, which isn't true of CIVT-DT. Theoretically there might be signal on CHAN-DT in Seattle's North Beach/Blue Ridge neighborhood (I used to live there and got decent reception on Canadian OTA analogs but horrid OTA reception on the Seattle stations).

Obviously, CHAN-DT, CBUT-DT and CIVT-DT all use drastically lower power output than the major Seatac DMA stations.

Question: how accurate are the transmitter power figures shown for Seattle-area stations on TV Fool?

Seatacboy - When did digital CHAN begin broadcasting? I checked to see if my receiver could smell anything on physical channel 22 on Saturday, and got nothing. FWIW, I get great reception for most of the analog Canadian stations.

Comcast may eventually get there with the local HD digital channels, but why do they give the run around about needing or not needing a DTV converter box for those with BASIC CABLE and have no set-top Motorola cable box?
I've called a couple times and one said you can lease a DTV converter box from them and another one said you don't need any box, implying Comcast will by next Februrary convert the local and Tier 1 extra channels now on basic cable to analog and put them on the current analog channels. I don't trust Comcast's info and tend to belive that they want customers to wait and then try to convince us to upgrade our service.
Does anyone know the real facts whether a DTV converter box is needed or not with BASIC CABLE?

I can't think any cable company would cut off analog customers come next February. But, I also don't think anyone knows yet what any cable company is going to do.

Comcast may eventually get there with the local HD digital channels, but why do they give the run around about needing or not needing a DTV converter box for those with BASIC CABLE and have no set-top Motorola cable box?
I've called a couple times and one said you can lease a DTV converter box from them and another one said you don't need any box, implying Comcast will by next Februrary convert the local and Tier 1 extra channels now on basic cable to analog and put them on the current analog channels. I don't trust Comcast's info and tend to belive that they want customers to wait and then try to convince us to upgrade our service.
Does anyone know the real facts whether a DTV converter box is needed or not with BASIC CABLE?consult the "AVS Forum>HDTV>Local HDTV Info and Reception>Seattle, WA - Comcast" thread.

Sounds like the reason the Canadian forums are crowing about CHAN-DT (Global) is that the 8.3kW output is drastically more than the measly 900 watt output from CIVT-DT (the CTV affiliate). Possibly CHAN-DT can be picked up in the Bellingham area, which isn't true of CIVT-DT. Theoretically there might be signal on CHAN-DT in Seattle's North Beach/Blue Ridge neighborhood (I used to live there and got decent reception on Canadian OTA analogs but horrid OTA reception on the Seattle stations).

Obviously, CHAN-DT, CBUT-DT and CIVT-DT all use drastically lower power output than the major Seatac DMA stations.

Question: how accurate are the transmitter power figures shown for Seattle-area stations on TV Fool?

seatacboy
I agree, any increase in power of that amount is going to seem like Christmas for them.
Reception down here of their analog stations doesn't really translate, though, of what's possible for HD. Same thing here, comparing analog to HD.
Analog reception can be far weaker and still be received. Also, VHF travels further on far less power than UHF. In northwest seattle, near the Sound, you can see Vancouver and Victoria. The further north and west you go, the better it gets. Signal reception "quality" can be debated, but it can be very "watchable". All depends on your definition of the those terms. I've seen hundreds of homes that got the channels. Also, their VHF analog channels don't need much power to travel down here. KOMO 4 analog only has 100,000watts. Vancouver CBUT ch2 is the same. KOMO is at 1000ft elevation, CBUT at 3000ft.
What's different in HD is that you need to have a much higher minimum signal level, about -12db, give or take, and ALL of that 6mhz wide signal needs to get there within about 5db, +/-, with minimal background noise. The Vancouver folks have the advantage of having their TV stations transmit from that high mountain that allows great coverage over the city, and surrounding terrain. In another words, pretty much a slam dunk. Folks out in the boondocks, or in the hilly areas, have problems, though. The increase in power from 900 watts to 8300 is huge, and it would obviously bring many people on line that got zip before. Their HD channel is UHF, which doesn't like to travel over hills and terrain. They don't need to raise their power levels that much to cover their area.
Last, they can't blast our way too much, because the locals here will jump all over them if they're on the same frequency, or interefere.
Add it all up and you're not going to see much down here. I would like to see it, but I'm not holding my breath!

I don't know what TVFool says for power figures, or where they receive their info. What I use is the FCC, which does have the right figures for allowed power. Now, whether the stations actually put out that much, not sure. One would assume it would be awfully close, if not spot on, because they want to cover as much area as possible.
If you want to check it out, it's a great site.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Where it says Call Sign, put in the station ID. When it pulls up the data, click on any of the station names, and the next page will show all the info, with lots of links for more.
You can also check out radio stations, too. Lots of data, and you won't believe this, but if you e-mail Mr. Hossein Hashemzadeh, the contact man, he will answer your inquiry with a few days. That alone makes it very cool !
I wish the Canadians had a similar site. Their regulations split up the duties with another organization, and I haven't been able to find out through either the data the FCC shows. If someone knows, love to find it.

I haven't seen any of the new boxes working. As soon as my coupons come, I'll buy a few and try them. Would like to pop the covers and see what chips they use. Wouldn't it be interesting if it was hi def capable, and only needed a video output chip or even something simpler .......

Dan

Dan & Quarque,

FWIW, I found a near-perfect reception spot for my new 4221 antenna.

Unfortunately, it is not a good place to have the antenna, partially blocking the back stairs to my deck.

As you have often told many folks here, a few INCHES can make a big difference. Plus, the new antenna is under the eave of the house, while the old one is 8 feet above the top of the fireplace chimney.

Next decent weekend, the ladder comes out and I'll look for an under-the-eave spot that does not block passage.

Seatacboy - When did digital CHAN begin broadcasting? I checked to see if my receiver could smell anything on physical channel 22 on Saturday, and got nothing. FWIW, I get great reception for most of the analog Canadian stations.
Per digitalhome.ca (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84662), the CHAN-DT screen shot indicates physical channel 22. It sounds like the standard-def feed maps to 8.1, the high-def feed maps to 22.2.

As Dan pointed out, ATSC reception at a particular spot is less predictable than NTSC. Also, a Bellingham viewer at digitalhome (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84662&page=7) board indicated CHAN 22.2 was quite a bit weaker than CBUT. Would it be possible for the CHAN/Global technical team to have tweaked the transmission pattern from Mt. Seymour so that the signal would be weaker towards the southeast than towards the southwest and east? It could be that unlike CHAN/8 analog, CHAN-DT's transmission pattern might be tailored to where it doesn't blanket Whatcom and Skagit counties, while providing strong coverage over the Lower Mainland and (possibly) parts of Vancouver Island to the southwest.

It could be that advanced transmission-tower technology might enable the Canadian channels' signal to become essentially vaporized just past the U.S. border, with the exception of places like Point Roberts or Blaine.

Perhaps you could call Global BC's office at 604.420.2288.

After the 02/17/09 analog shutoff, will KOMO, KING, KIRO, and KONG be moving their DTV transmitters to the top of their respective towers? If I understand correctly, their DTV channels are located a few yards underneath the main NTSC transmitters, somewhat reducing signal coverage in certain locations around Greater Seattle.

Are KOMO, KING, KIRO and KONG likely to make other post-transition upgrades to their signal contour coverage?

tuquet
Well, you could use that preamp. If the splitter passes DC, which most do, then you could put the preamp outside, and the power injector inside. Trick is to put a voltage blocker on the other output leg of the splitter. Looks like a small version of the preamp, an inline inch long thing. Passes all signals, but keeps the other TV from shorting out the power injector.
Not the swiftest preamp out there, but should give you enough to get over the minimums there, if that is indeed the problem. If not, you know it's a location related problem, not strength.
Dan
Thank you Dan for the tip. The guy seems to be happy with what he gets, especially when he gets more than I do, so I am not going to bother. I don't think it is a strength matter either. If someday he complains about it I'll refer him to you.

Per digitalhome.ca (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84662), the CHAN-DT screen shot indicates physical channel 22. It sounds like the standard-def feed maps to 8.1, the high-def feed maps to 22.2.

As Dan pointed out, ATSC reception at a particular spot is less predictable than NTSC. Also, a Bellingham viewer at digitalhome (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=84662&page=7) board indicated CHAN 22.2 was quite a bit weaker than CBUT. Would it be possible for the CHAN/Global technical team to have tweaked the transmission pattern from Mt. Seymour so that the signal would be weaker towards the southeast than towards the southwest and east? It could be that unlike CHAN/8 analog, CHAN-DT's transmission pattern might be tailored to where it doesn't blanket Whatcom and Skagit counties, while providing strong coverage over the Lower Mainland and (possibly) parts of Vancouver Island to the southwest.

It could be that advanced transmission-tower technology might enable the Canadian channels' signal to become essentially vaporized just past the U.S. border, with the exception of places like Point Roberts or Blaine.

Perhaps you could call Global BC's office at 604.420.2288.

Checked again last night - nothing. Other than Bellingham, I get nothing from the great white north.

Edit - went to the DHC forum and users were reporting that the channel was on and off randomly yesterday. So, maybe when the dust settles I might get something.

After the 02/17/09 analog shutoff, will KOMO, KING, KIRO, and KONG be moving their DTV transmitters to the top of their respective towers? If I understand correctly, their DTV channels are located a few yards underneath the main NTSC transmitters, somewhat reducing signal coverage in certain locations around Greater Seattle.

Are KOMO, KING, KIRO and KONG likely to make other post-transition upgrades to their signal contour coverage?

I can't speak for the other guys, but yes, going under the assumption that the February 17, 2009 deadline for turn-off of analog holds, KOMO will be replacing the top mounted Super-turnstyle VHF antenna atop the Queen Anne tower, with a new channel 38 DTV transmit antenna in 2009. In fact, I've been working with antenna manufacturers here at the National Association of Broadcasters convention in Las Vegas on some optimized custom antenna designs. So far I'm very pleased and encouraged with what we've come up with. Now their engineers need to do the structural analysis.

That being said, removing and replacing probably one hundred thousand pounds of antenna and transmission lines on top of a tower in a residential neighborhood is no easy feat, nor do we have any firm dates in place for the installation yet.

Checked again last night - nothing. Other than Bellingham, I get nothing from the great white north....... Edit - went to the DHC forum and users were reporting that the channel was on and off randomly yesterday. So, maybe when the dust settles I might get something. Time will tell.

The more I think about it, it does seems plausible that CHAN-DT's transmitter is more directionally focused than than analog CHAN/8, as apparently also is the case with CBUT-DT. I am a hobbyist, not a broadcast engineer, so this is speculation on my part (a risky thing in the AVS Forum!). CHAN-DT's transmission pattern might be tailored to be weaker towards the southeast - enough to reach Langley (BC) and White Rock but not to penetrate far into Whatcom County. A focused directional pattern for CHAN-DT would be stronger towards the west and southwest, reaching parts of Vancouver Island, the Gulf Islands and - possibly - Victoria.

As DanKurts pointed out, CHAN-DT's peak transmission power is 8.3kW, which is far less than KVOS-DT (from a similar high-elevation mountaintop) and also less than KOMO-DT, KING-DT and KIRO-DT.

P.S. Although I haven't obtained more than a brief short "blip" of KVOS-DT at my condo, at a friend's house on south of South Park I obtained KVOS-DT reception using an indoor antenna and a Zenith DTT-900. The Bellingham station's Mount Constitution transmitter is at a higher elevation and higher power than most Greater Seattle OTAs - but earth's curvature will still limit its reach, more so than with NTSC analog.

I can't speak for the other guys, but yes, going under the assumption that the February 17, 2009 deadline for turn-off of analog holds, KOMO will be replacing the top mounted Super-turnstyle VHF antenna atop the Queen Anne tower, with a new channel 38 DTV transmit antenna in 2009. In fact, I've been working with antenna manufacturers here at the National Association of Broadcasters convention in Las Vegas on some optimized custom antenna designs. So far I'm very pleased and encouraged with what we've come up with. Now their engineers need to do the structural analysis.

That being said, removing and replacing probably one hundred thousand pounds of antenna and transmission lines on top of a tower in a residential neighborhood is no easy feat, nor do we have any firm dates in place for the installation yet. A hundred thousand pounds of gear! Whew, that is a huge job! But think of what a great news story it will be - perhaps Steve Poole, Kathy Goertzen and Dan Lewis can offer KOMO News viewers some "human interest" and "educational" stories about the incredible amount of equipment and electronics involved in a DTV transmitter.

I'm pleased that KOMO will optimize its DTV transmitter in the near future to effectively reach the Greater Seattle viewing audience in standard-def and high-def DTV.

Dan & Quarque,

FWIW, I found a near-perfect reception spot for my new 4221 antenna.

Unfortunately, it is not a good place to have the antenna, partially blocking the back stairs to my deck.

As you have often told many folks here, a few INCHES can make a big difference. Plus, the new antenna is under the eave of the house, while the old one is 8 feet above the top of the fireplace chimney.

Next decent weekend, the ladder comes out and I'll look for an under-the-eave spot that does not block passage.

Dave - remember too that things will be leafing out soon and your sweet spot may move or disappear. I would not doing anything "permanent" until you have a month or two of burn-in.

Dave - remember too that things will be leafing out soon and your sweet spot may move or disappear. I would not doing anything "permanent" until you have a month or two of burn-in.

I agree, although the "in-path" trees are all evergreens, so that minimizes the issue. Of course way up the hill from me there could be some leaves to contend with.

Dan & Quarque,

FWIW, I found a near-perfect reception spot for my new 4221 antenna.

Unfortunately, it is not a good place to have the antenna, partially blocking the back stairs to my deck.

As you have often told many folks here, a few INCHES can make a big difference. Plus, the new antenna is under the eave of the house, while the old one is 8 feet above the top of the fireplace chimney.

Next decent weekend, the ladder comes out and I'll look for an under-the-eave spot that does not block passage.

Budget_HT
Well Done!
Be sure to mount the antenna at least a foot or so below the eave, so it doesn't create a "shadow" for the upper part of the antenna. The more equal the energy, on all four elements, the better. A good mount for the wall is this one, from Rat Shack,
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062036&cp=&sr=1&origkw=antenna+wall+mount&kw=antenna+wall+mount&parentPage=search
It has a brace on the lower bracket to help support the weight and keep it from sagging. Use a 3ft pipe between upper and lower bracket, and you can then spin it up to 90 degrees from the wall.
Take care on the ladder.
Dan

Thank you Dan for the tip. The guy seems to be happy with what he gets, especially when he gets more than I do, so I am not going to bother. I don't think it is a strength matter either. If someday he complains about it I'll refer him to you.

tuquet
Thank you. He's welcome to call, too, if just has a question.
Dan

I can't speak for the other guys, but yes, going under the assumption that the February 17, 2009 deadline for turn-off of analog holds, KOMO will be replacing the top mounted Super-turnstyle VHF antenna atop the Queen Anne tower, with a new channel 38 DTV transmit antenna in 2009. In fact, I've been working with antenna manufacturers here at the National Association of Broadcasters convention in Las Vegas on some optimized custom antenna designs. So far I'm very pleased and encouraged with what we've come up with. Now their engineers need to do the structural analysis.

That being said, removing and replacing probably one hundred thousand pounds of antenna and transmission lines on top of a tower in a residential neighborhood is no easy feat, nor do we have any firm dates in place for the installation yet.

Kelly From KOMO
One thing I would love to see is a 360 polar plot. The present D shaped pattern really drops power on Kitsap County area's. And I know some people on Magnolia and Ballard that would love to get out of the "dead" zone !
As for the new antenna install, no problem. You have Air 4 for that, right ?!
I had this mental picture of a similar thing when I watched the Ax Men show on Discovery channel. They used a chopper to pickup and run the steel sky line cable for logging trees over a half mile down the hill. Trick was not to get the cable caught in the trees, as there was no place to set it down.
One thing for sure, I want to know when you do it. That's going to be a REAL reality show !! I bet if you filmed it and burned some DVD's, I know a lot of people would love to buy a copy. Put me down for a dozen.
Dan

Budget_HT
Well Done!
Be sure to mount the antenna at least a foot or so below the eave, so it doesn't create a "shadow" for the upper part of the antenna. The more equal the energy, on all four elements, the better. A good mount for the wall is this one, from Rat Shack,
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062036&cp=&sr=1&origkw=antenna+wall+mount&kw=antenna+wall+mount&parentPage=search
It has a brace on the lower bracket to help support the weight and keep it from sagging. Use a 3ft pipe between upper and lower bracket, and you can then spin it up to 90 degrees from the wall.
Take care on the ladder.
Dan
Thanks Dan for the mount suggestion. And thanks for all of the OTA-can-be-done encouragement and help you provide to everyone in need in this forum thread.

Time will tell.

The more I think about it, it does seems plausible that CHAN-DT's transmitter is more directionally focused than than analog CHAN/8, as apparently also is the case with CBUT-DT. I am a hobbyist, not a broadcast engineer, so this is speculation on my part (a risky thing in the AVS Forum!). CHAN-DT's transmission pattern might be tailored to be weaker towards the southeast - enough to reach Langley (BC) and White Rock but not to penetrate far into Whatcom County. A focused directional pattern for CHAN-DT would be stronger towards the west and southwest, reaching parts of Vancouver Island, the Gulf Islands and - possibly - Victoria.

As DanKurts pointed out, CHAN-DT's peak transmission power is 8.3kW, which is far less than KVOS-DT (from a similar high-elevation mountaintop) and also less than KOMO-DT, KING-DT and KIRO-DT.

P.S. Although I haven't obtained more than a brief short "blip" of KVOS-DT at my condo, at a friend's house on south of South Park I obtained KVOS-DT reception using an indoor antenna and a Zenith DTT-900. The Bellingham station's Mount Constitution transmitter is at a higher elevation and higher power than most Greater Seattle OTAs - but earth's curvature will still limit its reach, more so than with NTSC analog.

seatacboy
There's a natural funnel for signal from Orcas, where the KVOS tower is, down to your friends. I have a buddy that sends Muzak to Bellingham from his house on top of QA Hill via microwave to Mt Constitution on Orcas, where its repeated to Bellingham. It's line of sight, but darn near level with the horizon. The KVOS power is only about half of 4,5,7,11 or 22, at 580kw. It's also close to 3 times higher than Seattle stations, at 2700ft. Ch13, for the record, is about the same power at 600kw, and it's height is 2200ft.
Tell your friend to buy some Lotto tickets!
Dan

Kelly From KOMO
One thing I would love to see is a 360 polar plot. The present D shaped pattern really drops power on Kitsap County area's. And I know some people on Magnolia and Ballard that would love to get out of the "dead" zone !
As for the new antenna install, no problem. You have Air 4 for that, right ?!
I had this mental picture of a similar thing when I watched the Ax Men show on Discovery channel. They used a chopper to pickup and run the steel sky line cable for logging trees over a half mile down the hill. Trick was not to get the cable caught in the trees, as there was no place to set it down.
One thing for sure, I want to know when you do it. That's going to be a REAL reality show !! I bet if you filmed it and burned some DVD's, I know a lot of people would love to buy a copy. Put me down for a dozen.
Dan

DVD's sales of the project eh? I guess that would be considered what we call in the business as "Non Traditional Revenue"!

The antenna design we have been working on is a true omni pattern via multiple horizontal "slot" antennas mounted inside a big cylindrical polycarbonite tube, or radome. I have some other tricks up my sleeve too which I won't reveal here.

I got a kick out of your Air4 comment. That machine is built for speed, not for lifting. My experience is that use of helicopters for lifting broadcast antennas or tower sections never turn out as planned. Good ol' tried and true cranes or even "gin poles" do a much better job.

Here's what you need to rent for the DVD: a Kaman K-Max (http://www.kamanaero.com/helicopters/kmax.html), the world's only heavy-lift helicopter with true intermeshed counter-rotating rotors. Check the video...

DVD's sales of the project eh? I guess that would be considered what we call in the business as "Non Traditional Revenue"!

The antenna design we have been working on is a true omni pattern via multiple horizontal "slot" antennas mounted inside a big cylindrical polycarbonite tube, or radome. I have some other tricks up my sleeve too which I won't reveal here.

I got a kick out of your Air4 comment. That machine is built for speed, not for lifting. My experience is that use of helicopters for lifting broadcast antennas or tower sections never turn out as planned. Good ol' tried and true cranes or even "gin poles" do a much better job.

Kelly From KOMO
Seriously, It would not only make a fun video, and be educational, but let people know what it takes to upgrade and give them an idea of your commitment to over air HD. In the late 70's, I put up the antennas on the Fisher Family homes in Des Moines, (back when I was dumber than I am now. The "Norse" house had a steep copper roof, so I had to throw a rope around the chimney and hang on while installing it a good 30 feet up!) and it was refreshingly interesting to hear their comments on how they were NOT going to give in to cable, and would do what ever it takes to make the stations first rate and give the public quality, free TV and radio. It wasn't just BS, because they had no reason to sell me on anything, just honest talk. In my line of work, which is much more than just antennas, there are increasing numbers of people that just want over air. It kind of surprises me, because most of them are well off, and could easily afford cable and satellite. They just want a quality picture and local content, access to the major networks, and PBS. They say there's no time for anything else and they're weary of all the worthless shows on the other 200+ channels and having to pay for it.

Again, think about the opportunity. You have a chance to make a lot of new friends, in many ways.
If you're worried about top secret hardware, you could still film it in such a way that would get the story across.

Gin poles. Yikes. Another one of those I did ONCE, puttin up a 60 foot Rohn, with guy wires. Never again. If everything goes right, not too much trouble. We were almost done, on the last ten footer, and the wind picked up. Had to finish it, and did, but needed new shorts.
You guys earn your money on that install!!

Glad to hear it's a true omni antenna. Looking forward to doing a test in the dead zones when it's up and running. Gives me an excuse to go to the Totem Fish & Chips, only a few blocks from the zone. Be sure to e-mail me when the install starts.
Thanks again for keeping us up to date, too.
Dan

Kelly From KOMO
Seriously, It would not only make a fun video, and be educational, but let people know what it takes to upgrade and give them an idea of your commitment to over air HD. ........In my line of work, which is much more than just antennas, there are increasing numbers of people that just want over air. It kind of surprises me, because most of them are well off, and could easily afford cable and satellite. They just want a quality picture and local content, access to the major networks, and PBS. They say there's no time for anything else and they're weary of all the worthless shows on the other 200+ channels and having to pay for it.

Again, think about the opportunity. You have a chance to make a lot of new friends, in many ways. If you're worried about top secret hardware, you could still film it in such a way that would get the story across.

Gin poles. Yikes. Another one of those I did ONCE, puttin up a 60 foot Rohn, with guy wires. Never again. If everything goes right, not too much trouble. We were almost done, on the last ten footer, and the wind picked up. Had to finish it, and did, but needed new shorts. You guys earn your money on that install!!

Glad to hear it's a true omni antenna. Looking forward to doing a test in the dead zones when it's up and running. Gives me an excuse to go to the Totem Fish & Chips, only a few blocks from the zone. Be sure to e-mail me when the install starts. Thanks again for keeping us up to date, too. Dan Kelly: KOMO could use its on-air personalities (Dan Lewis, Kathy Goertzen, Steve Poole) to provide humor and insightful commentary during video coverage of the "great KOMO DTV transmitter upgrade"! I echo Dan's sentiments, too - it would make it very clear to many of KOMO's viewers that they CAN view KOMO without paying for cable. Not only can they pick up the station, but picture quality can be splendid (arguably a bit better than via cable).

Wouldn't it be fun if KOMO's initiative in this area generated a friendly "contest" with other major Seattle OTAs!! Can you imagine the fun if KIRO's DTV transmitter documentary news coverage featured J.P. Patches? Or KING/KONG's DTV upgrade coverage featured alumnus Stan Boreson?

Ranier Heli-Lift (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N699RH.html), Kirkland.

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Capacity: 6,000 lb (2,722 kg) external load
Length: 51 ft 10 in (15.8 m)
Rotor diameter: 48 ft 3 in (14.7m) (Caution, approach from front)
Height: 13 ft 7 in (4.14 m)
Useful load: 6,855 lb (3,109 kg)
Hovering ceiling with max payload: 2440m
Powerplant: 1× Honeywell T53-17 turboshaft, 1,800 shp
Cost: $4.1M

More info (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/kaman_max.php) on this weird bird.

The attenuator doesn't work at all, with it can't get anything.

Ranier Heli-Lift (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N699RH.html), Kirkland.

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Capacity: 6,000 lb (2,722 kg) external load
Length: 51 ft 10 in (15.8 m)
Rotor diameter: 48 ft 3 in (14.7m) (Caution, approach from front)
Height: 13 ft 7 in (4.14 m)
Useful load: 6,855 lb (3,109 kg)
Hovering ceiling with max payload: 2440m
Powerplant: 1× Honeywell T53-17 turboshaft, 1,800 shp
Cost: $4.1M

More info (http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/kaman_max.php) on this weird bird.

Interesting machine! Given the weight involved, it wouldn't work for lifting an antenna. The existing antenna and pole probably weighs close to 10-12,000 lbs. depending on how much stuff is stripped off before the lift.

The insurance requirements for using a helicopter for a lift is unreal! A few years ago I looked into lifting an FM translator enclosed in a outdoor cabinet to the top of a water tower in Olympia. Just the insurance, police closing several streets, and the necessary permits were close to $80,000.00. That for a box that weighed less than 200lbs. Imagine how expensive it would be to lift 10,000lbs-twice!

Being so close to the transmitters, not to mention the other communications on QA, you are likely suffering from TOO MUCH signal, it's overloading the box.

One possible solution is to go to Radio Shack and ask to buy an TV attenuator, about $4, what it will do is "scale" back the amount if signal to the box and should improve the situation...or just buy a simple bowtie UHF antenna, about $5, and fiddle around finding the sweet spot.... Radio Shack 15-234 UHF Outline Bow-Tie Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&pg=1&searchSort=TRUE&retainProdsInSession=1&y=7&x=3&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=family). These are stocked at some local RS stores, I bought one two months ago in Burien and use it connected to a bedroom TV with CECB. In some respects, it provides better UHF performance than most more-expensive indoor rabbit ears - that is, very high signal strength on some stations. The only downsides is the short flat-lead wire and 300-ohm twin-lead connectors. The problems from these design shortcomings: first, placement flexibility is sharply limited; second, the flat-lead wire can pick up a lot of extraneous interference; third, you will need a matching transformer to connect the 300-ohm twin-lead to a 75-ohm RF connector. Radio Shack sells a matching transformer (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062054&cp=&sr=1&origkw=300+ohm&kw=300+ohm&parentPage=search) for $5, you can get these cheaper just about anywhere else.

I can't find the link, but sometime I read about a do-it-yourself upgrade for this antenna which involves replacing the flat-lead wire with a 12' quad-shield RG-6 cable and high-quality RF connectors, giving better placement flexibility and dramatically reducing pickup of miscellaneous interference.

Ah, true. But maybe much of that cost was because the lift was over civil infrastructure.

Anyway, what you'd apparently need is a heavy-lift chopper, although it sounds like you can get away with a crane. I should think that rental & assembly of a crane would be getting up there in cost though?

Also you mentioned horizontal slot antenna? Would this be a waveguide antenna? That is a great technology, and very reliable. I guess you'd have four, for the four quadrants? Vertical polarization?

Threads merged

Ah, true. But maybe much of that cost was because the lift was over civil infrastructure.

Anyway, what you'd apparently need is a heavy-lift chopper, although it sounds like you can get away with a crane. I should think that rental & assembly of a crane would be getting up there in cost though?

Also you mentioned horizontal slot antenna? Would this be a waveguide antenna? That is a great technology, and very reliable. I guess you'd have four, for the four quadrants? Vertical polarization?

What one usually uses to do this sort of lift is a "Gin Pole". If you haven't seen one, its something like a crane boom that is attached to the side of the existing tower, but extends above what you're trying to lift. The nice thing about a gin pole is you have pretty good control over the load, and the weight is held close to the tower so the tower takes the load, not a crane trying to lift with the boom angled horizontal.

A horzontal slot antenna is essentially a leaky coax. There are tuned slots cut into the outer conductor of a piece of transmission line. You stack the slotted pieces of line at one wavelength apart vertically to attain the amount of gain to he horizon. As you point out, in order to get an omnidirectional pattern, you place these antenna sections around in a circle facing out. In the case of the KOMO antenna, we would use eight antenna sections around to create the omnidirectional pattern.

Again I don't want to divluge too much information on the forum, but let's just say there are ways of optimizing the various departure angles and polarities to maximize coverage, and reduce multipath. Which, is obviously important for DTV reception. I would rather not put the company through expensive antenna changes everytime some new reception device is released, so we're trying to anticipate all the scenarios in advance.

Very interesting, thanks Kelly.

I suspect that you'll be using conventional methods to control the vertical pattern, such as tunable inductors between segments of the vertical stack, to shine down-looking up to horizon.

For those who are interested, Google Earth has some spectacular KMLs which locate each of the ATV and DTV towers in the Seattle metro area. They show the signal pattern, as derived by advanced waveflow analysis. Attached is the KOMO DTV radiative pattern.

Not exactly HDTV but it is DTV info.

All three now seem to be transmitting guide information as part of their PSIP. I hadn't seen this before. Also KHCV 45-4 is no longer carrying America One content but is now carrying "The Sportsman Channel" which I've never heard of. Lots of shows about hunting and fishing. I'll miss "Macabre Theatre" on Saturday nights. :(

Update: I just discovered that KIRO 7.2 RTN has cheesy monster movies on Saturday nights. This Saturday at 11pm "The Brain that wouldn't Die". Next saturday at 11pm "Eegah!"

Not exactly HDTV but it is DTV info.

All three now seem to be transmitting guide information as part of their PSIP. I hadn't seen this before. Also KHCV 45-4 is no longer carrying America One content but is now carrying "The Sportsman Channel" which I've never heard of. Lots of shows about hunting and fishing. I'll miss "Macabre Theatre" on Saturday nights. :( Darned! I actually viewed America One a few times, even with its rather mediocre PQ. I guess America One's advertising revenue simply wasn't enough to pay KHCV for leasing the subchannel.

Your header mentioned KBTC and KWPX - any specifics as to changes? As of yesterday, here's what seems to be their lineups:
28.1 KBTC
28.2 Create
28.3 Annenberg Media
28.4 MhZ WorldView [I have become rather fond of this]

33.1 Ion main network
33.2 Qubo
33.3 Ion Life
33.4 Worship

Not exactly HDTV but it is DTV info.

All three now seem to be transmitting guide information as part of their PSIP. I hadn't seen this before. Also KHCV 45-4 is no longer carrying America One content but is now carrying "The Sportsman Channel" which I've never heard of. Lots of shows about hunting and fishing. I'll miss "Macabre Theatre" on Saturday nights. :(

I watched the "Sportman's Channel" the other day with my 4 year old daughter. they were stalking a large mountain goat in New Zealand, with bows as weapons. It would have been a much better show if it ended with great pictures (like Art Wolfe) instead of a dead goat. I'm not anti-hunting, but it is difficult to try to explain to a 4 y/o why someone would kill an animal just for sport.

Your header mentioned KBTC and KWPX - any specifics as to changes?
KBTC is now broadcasting detailed guide information. This is new.
KHCV is now broadcasting generic guide information which just repeats the channel every four hours or so. This is also new. Although I hope it's a first step towards broadcasting actual guide information.
I was mistaken about KWPX. It's still not broadcasting guide information as far as I can tell.

Has anyone tried those Digital HD to Analog Converters yet? Is everything letterboxed?

I got my coupon for one and wondered what a good one would be.

Electric T-Bird: Not everything is letterboxed, as some legacy and daytime programming is still 4x3. With such shows, if the convertor box is set to widescreen mode, black bars will appear on all four sides. With the CW, FOX, CBS, and ABC*, everything available in HD is 4x3 center-cut safe if you're into that sort of thing, allowing the use of that mode full-time. For NBC and PBS, 4x3-center-cutting isn't suggested, as various HD programming is framed for letterboxing on 4x3 TVs. You may often need to manually switch between letterbox and pan-and-scan modes for programming until AFD is widely adopted.

As for a box selection, that generally depends on what's available. More boxes are coming out soon. What's the expiration date on the coupon? Do you watch low-power stations like Daystar analog channel 23? Do you plan on using this box a lot for recording to a VCR or DVD recorder?

* With ABC HD sports programming, a ticker that occasionally pops up to show scores for other games throughout the sports world isn't 4x3-safe, but you probably don't care.

Electric T-Bird: As for a box selection, that generally depends on what's available. More boxes are coming out soon. What's the expiration date on the coupon? Do you watch low-power stations like Daystar analog channel 23? Do you plan on using this box a lot for recording to a VCR or DVD recorder?

Thanks. The Coupon Expires 7/7/2008. The box would be used on a secondary TV and as as a backup for Cable TV failure. I not excepting to record from it unless it its a digital sub-channel that Comcast won't carry which then it would be with a VCR. RCA connections on both TV and VCR.

When the analog transmitters get turned off next February, you will likely be safe with a center cut on all channels. NBC is planning to make its shows 4:3 safe and is advising its stations to do likewise.

Is anyone else having audio problems on KING-DT? There is a high pitched wining. It started yesterday.

Do you watch low-power stations like Daystar analog channel 23?Silly me; last night, I thought I was replying in the DC HDTV thread. Sorry for any confusion.

In any case, I asked because some analog channels won't go out next year. These ones are low-power stations usually broadcasting religious and/or niche material; in such a case, you'd need a box with analog pass-thru (not all of them have this).

Thanks. The Coupon Expires 7/7/2008. The box would be used on a secondary TV and as as a backup for Cable TV failure. I not excepting to record from it unless it its a digital sub-channel that Comcast won't carry which then it would be with a VCR. RCA connections on both TV and VCR.Then either:

1. The RCA DTA800A; there is a more expensive DTA-800B which adds "SmartAntenna" capability that you don't need. Available at WalMart.

2. The Magnavox unit at WalMart.

3. A Philco or Sylvania (same manufacturer) from KMart and Sears (and Target?) (coming soon to those locations).

4. The Echostar DTVPal (a.k.a. TR-40); this is going to be available in June; however, a lot of power-users are clamoring for this one, so I suggest keeping stocks as high as possible for them. This one will be free with the coupon, though (OK, so you'll have to pay sales taxes, but otherwise...). Specific availability unknown, but likely locations include RadioShack and Sears.

You've got plenty of time to let selection increase before purchasing. Whichever box you buy, the price pre-coupon shouldn't exceed $50 for your intended use of this box. Some do, like those from Insignia, Zenith, and Digital Stream, which aren't bad, but are overpriced for your needs.

in response to allen98311 and the msg thread...

I live in port townsend wa zip code 98368. im at a higher elevation half mile from safeway in town at higher elevation.. i got direct line of sight with transmitting signals accept for few trees in way. im using a custom home made DB2 LIKE antenna laying flat with hanger wire going left and right horizontal. i get total of 29 stations DTV using a hauppauge hvr-1250 hybrid hdtv tuner which picks up streams and saves direct digital stream to mpeg file using wintv6 and latest drivers in winxp pro sp2... anyhow king5 was working fine when i got all this going started on april 15th 2008 and then this last week king5 audio quality has degraded thought i was only one who noticed. all broadcasts in digital on 1051 the audio has a high pitch wine/monotone with static/crackle going on. makes audio listening friggin crazy and drives u nuts. i emailed the king5 programming tv guru but no response back maybe sumone else has an email to let them know more than one person is having this audio issue.. video has been fine and im getting a 20.8 to 22 SNR ratio with no correctable or uncrrectable errors using the hauppauge digital signal meter while wintv is going and tune into king5. but audio issue is there..

all other digital channels i get with good signal does not have these audio issues. just king5 1051 and when they show local stuff its really bad

on kiro7 when im picking it up signals come in great at night time everything is fine but some commercials and like dave letterman show is a 1 sec out of sync audio to the video. dave will be speaking and it looks like an old japanese audio movie where audio out of sync with video, commercials dont do it but most hd shows...

other than that my pc is doing fine with the hv-1250 card when i use wintv to watch shows audio is choppy and clicks in and out every 10-30 seconds even with good signal i think its either the card or the system its in or the card sharing same irq as video card. video card is a 8600gt nvidia pci express x16 slot and the hvr-1250 is in a pci express x1 slot both using same irq.. when i am live recording shows with good signal dont have the audio drop out problem. weird.. just wanted to let people know my experiences... i get king5 good most of the time, kiro7 comes in good at night, pbs is all day good, qubo channels good, and i get 1111 1121 1221 and canada stations.. all with a hanger made db2 clone antenna laying flat horizontal posistion... pointed at towers in bremerton or seattle whereever they are... much better experience im having here in port townsend. year ago lived in port ludlow 30 miles from here with forest trees right on the water and signals were bad with same antenna but using an older hvr-950 and hvr-1600 card...

thanks guys

1. The RCA DTA800A; there is a more expensive DTA-800B which adds "SmartAntenna" capability that you don't need. Available at WalMart.

2. The Magnavox unit at WalMart.

3. A Philco or Sylvania (same manufacturer) from KMart and Sears (and Target?) (coming soon to those locations).

4. The Echostar DTVPal (a.k.a. TR-40); this is going to be available in June; however, a lot of power-users are clamoring for this one, so I suggest keeping stocks as high as possible for them. This one will be free with the coupon, though (OK, so you'll have to pay sales taxes, but otherwise...). Specific availability unknown, but likely locations include RadioShack and Sears.

You've got plenty of time to let selection increase before purchasing. Whichever box you buy, the price pre-coupon shouldn't exceed $50 for your intended use of this box. Some do, like those from Insignia, Zenith, and Digital Stream, which aren't bad, but are overpriced for your needs. A few extra points on the CECBs:

1. At Wal*Mart, RCA's DTA800B (the only RCA version for sale) is $50 plus tax. After coupon: approximately $14.45.

2. At Wal*Mart, the Magnavox unit is $53 plus tax. After coupon: approximately $17.63.

3. Neither Sears Roebuck nor KMart is selling CECBs locally. Subject to change.

4. At this time, a long list of major Seattle-area retailers are NOT selling CECBs. These include: Target, Fred Meyer, Walgreens, Rite Aid, Magnolia Audio Video, Video Only, Bartell Drug.

5. Membership warehouses Sam's Club and Costco Wholesale are not selling CECBs.

6. At Circuit City, the LG/Zenith box sells with tax for approximately $65.39. After coupon: approximately $25.39. Same price at Best Buy for the LG/Insignia box.

7. Nearly all Radio Shack stores sell a box for $65.39 with tax (post-coupon, $25.39). Some stores carry the LG/Zenith CECB, other stores carry the "Digital Stream" CECB. After coupon: approximately $25.39

The biggest problem CECB early adopters in the Seattle area face is not from the boxes themselves. Seattle's local topography and less-than-ideal TV transmission patterns create messy DTV reception problems for a great many home TV viewers. If you get sufficient signal strength without multipath interference, DTV picture quality often is very impressive on an older standard-def TV. However, in most cases, you truly will need a roof-mounted outdoor antenna to obtain reasonably consistent DTV reception on local DTV channels.

Well said, seatacboy.

in response to allen98311 and the msg thread...

I live in port townsend wa zip code 98368. im at a higher elevation half mile from safeway in town at higher elevation.. i got direct line of sight with transmitting signals accept for few trees in way. im using a custom home made DB2 LIKE antenna laying flat with hanger wire going left and right horizontal. i get total of 29 stations DTV using a hauppauge hvr-1250 hybrid hdtv tuner which picks up streams and saves direct digital stream to mpeg file using wintv6 and latest drivers in winxp pro sp2... anyhow king5 was working fine when i got all this going started on april 15th 2008 and then this last week king5 audio quality has degraded thought i was only one who noticed. all broadcasts in digital on 1051 the audio has a high pitch wine/monotone with static/crackle going on. makes audio listening friggin crazy and drives u nuts. i emailed the king5 programming tv guru but no response back maybe sumone else has an email to let them know more than one person is having this audio issue.. video has been fine and im getting a 20.8 to 22 SNR ratio with no correctable or uncrrectable errors using the hauppauge digital signal meter while wintv is going and tune into king5. but audio issue is there..

all other digital channels i get with good signal does not have these audio issues. just king5 1051 and when they show local stuff its really bad

on kiro7 when im picking it up signals come in great at night time everything is fine but some commercials and like dave letterman show is a 1 sec out of sync audio to the video. dave will be speaking and it looks like an old japanese audio movie where audio out of sync with video, commercials dont do it but most hd shows...

other than that my pc is doing fine with the hv-1250 card when i use wintv to watch shows audio is choppy and clicks in and out every 10-30 seconds even with good signal i think its either the card or the system its in or the card sharing same irq as video card. video card is a 8600gt nvidia pci express x16 slot and the hvr-1250 is in a pci express x1 slot both using same irq.. when i am live recording shows with good signal dont have the audio drop out problem. weird.. just wanted to let people know my experiences... i get king5 good most of the time, kiro7 comes in good at night, pbs is all day good, qubo channels good, and i get 1111 1121 1221 and canada stations.. all with a hanger made db2 clone antenna laying flat horizontal posistion... pointed at towers in bremerton or seattle whereever they are... much better experience im having here in port townsend. year ago lived in port ludlow 30 miles from here with forest trees right on the water and signals were bad with same antenna but using an older hvr-950 and hvr-1600 card...

thanks guys

I also notice this on the DirecTV HD DVR on channel 5 HD.

A few extra points on the CECBs:

1. At Wal*Mart, RCA's DTA800B (the only RCA version for sale) is $50 plus tax. After coupon: approximately $14.45.

2. At Wal*Mart, the Magnavox unit is $53 plus tax. After coupon: approximately $17.63.

3. Neither Sears Roebuck nor KMart is selling CECBs locally. Subject to change.

4. At this time, a long list of major Seattle-area retailers are NOT selling CECBs. These include: Target, Fred Meyer, Walgreens, Rite Aid, Magnolia Audio Video, Video Only, Bartell Drug.

5. Membership warehouses Sam's Club and Costco Wholesale are not selling CECBs.

6. At Circuit City, the LG/Zenith box sells with tax for approximately $65.39. After coupon: approximately $25.39. Same price at Best Buy for the LG/Insignia box.

7. Nearly all Radio Shack stores sell a box for $65.39 with tax (post-coupon, $25.39). Some stores carry the LG/Zenith CECB, other stores carry the "Digital Stream" CECB. After coupon: approximately $25.39

The biggest problem CECB early adopters in the Seattle area face is not from the boxes themselves. Seattle's local topography and less-than-ideal TV transmission patterns create messy DTV reception problems for a great many home TV viewers. If you get sufficient signal strength without multipath interference, DTV picture quality often is very impressive on an older standard-def TV. However, in most cases, you truly will need a roof-mounted outdoor antenna to obtain reasonably consistent DTV reception on local DTV channels.

Thank you very much, this a great help in my decision! :)

Noticed the list was missing:

Fry's is carrying Channel-Master 7000 for $79.99. I'm interested in this one because it has s-video output as well.

What?! Only svideo? No component or HDMI? I should have expected HD out of these converters, since the incoming signal is HD.

What about the Echostar?

None of the converters which are eligible for the coupons will output anything other than 480i via composite or S-video. There are HD tuners available, but they are much more expensive.

I came home today expecting to watch ABC World News which was supposed to have been recorded OTA on my Dish VIP722 DVR only to find that it was "Skipped due to signal loss". I checked the channel and signal strengh is zero. Yesterday it was 68. I have not touched anything. The outdoor antenna is still properly oriented. KCPQ still comes in perfect OTA. Is anyone else having issues with KOMO OTA? KOMO is coming in fine through the dish and I only record ABC News OTA so I don't interfere with other recordings or people watching live TV.

What?! Only svideo? No component or HDMI? I should have expected HD out of these converters, since the incoming signal is HD.The only point of these converters is to enable old fashioned 480i analog sets to keep working after the analog transmitters are turned off. They are stripped down to the bare essentials needed to accomplish that task. There was considerable discussion about the issue in the hearings over converter box design and the decision was made to limit their functionality.

I came home today expecting to watch ABC World News which was supposed to have been recorded OTA on my Dish VIP722 DVR only to find that it was "Skipped due to signal loss". I checked the channel and signal strengh is zero. Yesterday it was 68. I have not touched anything. The outdoor antenna is still properly oriented. KCPQ still comes in perfect OTA. Is anyone else having issues with KOMO OTA? KOMO is coming in fine through the dish and I only record ABC News OTA so I don't interfere with other recordings or people watching live TV.

It could be as simple as leaves filling in the trees around you. I am in the "shadow" location from Komo heading NW from the QA tower and my signal is intermiitent and multipath exists all the time for me. Cant wait for the new antenna myself.

The only point of these converters is to enable old fashioned 480i analog sets to keep working after the analog transmitters are turned off. They are stripped down to the bare essentials needed to accomplish that task. There was considerable discussion about the issue in the hearings over converter box design and the decision was made to limit their functionality.

There are quite a few HDTV monitors (with NTSC tuners) on the market in addition to FP. I guess the market for stand-alone tuners are still there. Can't wait until my DST-TU52 becomes a rare commodity.