I watched the "Sportman's Channel" the other day with my 4 year old daughter. they were stalking a large mountain goat in New Zealand, with bows as weapons. It would have been a much better show if it ended with great pictures (like Art Wolfe) instead of a dead goat. I'm not anti-hunting, but it is difficult to try to explain to a 4 y/o why someone would kill an animal just for sport.Well it is a hunting and fishing channel that would be part of it.What happened to the Sportsman channel OTA broadcast in Seattle it's just a color bar code.Maybe we weren't supposed to be getting it and they just figured it out hope not.

The Channelmaster 4221 antenna is a great DTV antenna but......if too close to the transmitters, it can provide too much signal into some tuners. Overloading the front end of a tuner distorts the received waveform and can actually be detected as invalid data by the receiver. If you are using this antenna in Lynnwood and can not receive the signals coming off of Queen Anne hill in Seattle, you might be experiencing an overload condition. Try adding an attenuator to your incoming feed line or a smaller antenna.

The Channelmaster 4221 antenna is a great DTV antenna but......if too close to the transmitters, it can provide too much signal into some tuners. Overloading the front end of a tuner distorts the received waveform and can actually be detected as invalid data by the receiver. If you are using this antenna in Lynnwood and can not receive the signals coming off of Queen Anne hill in Seattle, you might be experiencing an overload condition. Try adding an attenuator to your incoming feed line or a smaller antenna.

Myron

True, good advice.
You need to be closer to Queen Anne Hill to overload though, Ballard, Capital Hill, Magnolia, etc. I've never seen any signals in Lynnwood over 20db, and most are in the zero to 10db range, which can easily be handled by any of the more modern tuners. 1997 to 2000 model tuners had a few that got overloaded easily, but rarely any of the more common Hughes built ones, or Zenith, Pioneer, Magnavox, Sony, etc. My old Panasonic antique TU-DST50, one of the first ones in captivity with an original price of $3000, could handle up to 40db, no problemo ! (and it has a firewire output for recording HD!!)

Close in, with a 4221, I usually get 30 to 45db, which is definitely hot. A 10 or 20db attenuator would be about right in most cases, but if you're not having problems, don't worry about it too much. If you use one, put it right at the input to the tuner.
The beauty of using the bigger antenna, though, is a more stable signal, better S/N ratio and waveshape. Minor benefit, as the antenna corrodes over time, you'll have lots of extra to compensate. And if you want to drive 4 or 5 TV's, no sweat.

Dan

What gives with the Sportsman Channel? I have a test pattern for like the last 4-5 days now. Did they yank it off the air?

Any why can't KING-DT get their act together like everyone else for their radiation pattern? All of the other Queen Anne tower-based channels come in perfectly at 60%+ even in bad weather here on the edge of Redmond/Bellevue next to Microsoft, but not KING-DT. 1-2 bars at best tonight on a Samsung LN-S4595D. The slightest ignition noise of cars driving past make my TV lose signal. Maintenance and their golf cart simply wipe out my signal completely until they are far enough away.

Even channel 13.1 (based out of Tacoma) has 5-6 bars, and it's 4x further away along the same basic direction. I live 9 miles from the source of 5.1/5.2....

I've got a Channel Master 4221 on an 8 foot steel pole mounted in a 5 gallon bucket filled with Quickrete.

Here's the channels I watch:
4.1 70% solid, no dropouts
5.1/5.2 0-30% with wild fluctuation and dropouts
7.1/7.2 70% solid
9.1/9.2/9.3/9.4/9.5 80-100% with some fluctuation, no dropouts
11.1 50-60% with some fluctuation, no dropouts
13.1/13.2 50-60% with some fluctuation, no dropouts
16.1/16.2 50-60% with some fluctuation, no dropouts
22.1 80-100% with some fluctuation, no dropouts
28.1 forget it... no signal.
33.1/33.2/33.3 30-60% with wild fluctuation and dropouts
45.4 0-30% with wild fluctuation and dropouts

What gives with the Sportsman Channel? I have a test pattern for like the last 4-5 days now. Did they yank it off the air?
I wrote an email to the station manager yesterday asking about this. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.
Even channel 13.1 (based out of Tacoma) has 5-6 bars, and it's 4x further away along the same basic direction. I live 9 miles from the source of 5.1/5.2....

clarification: KCPQ is licensed in Tacoma but the broadcast antenna is actually near Bremerton.

M$Guy,

How much have you moved the bucket/antenna around to check for better overall reception. At UHF frequencies, inches can make a big difference.

FWIW, where I live, all the stations come in strong when I stay below the tree line. My 4221 is mounted under the eave of my house. It replaced a UHF yagi antenna that was 8 feet above the top of my chimney (about 16 feet higher than the present antenna). The yagi served me well from 1999 to early this year. I guess the trees around here have grown enough to change the game plan.

If you read through more of this thread, you will find excellent advice from Dan Kurts, who professionally installs antennas and home theater systems. Do a search on his member name if you would like to read through his advice.

Quarque is another well-regarded source of good information here.

Good luck. Odds are you can find a sweet spot that helps your KING-DT reception.

There are still audio problems on KING-DT, and it has been 2 weeks. Does anyone know what is going on and when it is going to be fixed? It is the same on the HD receivers from DirecTV and on Vista Media Center.

Hello to all my AVS Forum friends. Just a quick note to let everyone know that I am no longer with Fisher Communications, or KOMO TV. Life is too short for high stress and politics. I guess this means I need to figure out how to change my name on this board huh?

Anyway while I'm trying to determine what to do next, I will be taking a few much needed days off to get some domestic projects done, (and there are a lot), plus working on a new HD-DTV related website.

With over 17 million estimated OTA viewers of television being effected by the turn-off of analog TV next year, I wanted to join in the education experience providing some of my knowledge from the broadcast side, combined with consumer-based reviews, all the way to granular technical FAQ about transmission and reception of DTV and HD signals. The URL is: http://www.DTVrules.com. Right now there is just a placeholder parked there, and I hope to have vers. 1.1 up in about two weeks, if not earlier. Please jump in and say hello!

I may leave the discussion board duties to the AVS Forum, because really the intent of DTVRules.com revolves more around an informational site with help for the less technically inclined, all the way to ATSC standards information. Of course nobody will want to read my blatherings all the time, so I'm looking for other contributors willing to write weekly blogs or a column as well. Please feel free to send me an E-mail here on the Forum, or contact me via DTVRules.com in the next few days. Any suggestions of what to put on the site are very welcome, since it is a work in progress.

Alright enough self-promotion for the time being. Thanks to everyone for their comments while we were fine tuning the HD gear at KOMO-TV. Rest assured that I will still be around the AVS forum also, just with a new "handle", (that is if I can change it).

All The Best,

Kelly

Hello to all my AVS Forum friends. Just a quick note to let everyone know that I am no longer with Fisher Communications, or KOMO TV. Life is too short for high stress and politics. I guess this means I need to figure out how to change my name on this board huh?

Anyway while I'm trying to determine what to do next, I will be taking a few much needed days off to get some domestic projects done, (and there are a lot), plus working on a new HD-DTV related website.

With over 17 million estimated OTA viewers of television being effected by the turn-off of analog TV next year, I wanted to join in the education experience providing some of my knowledge from the broadcast side, combined with consumer-based reviews, all the way to granular technical FAQ about transmission and reception of DTV and HD signals. The URL is: http://www.DTVrules.com. Right now there is just a placeholder parked there, and I hope to have vers. 1.1 up in about two weeks, if not earlier. Please jump in and say hello!

I may leave the discussion board duties to the AVS Forum, because really the intent of DTVRules.com revolves more around an informational site with help for the less technically inclined, all the way to ATSC standards information. Of course nobody will want to read my blatherings all the time, so I'm looking for other contributors willing to write weekly blogs or a column as well. Please feel free to send me an E-mail here on the Forum, or contact me via DTVRules.com in the next few days. Any suggestions of what to put on the site are very welcome, since it is a work in progress.

Alright enough self-promotion for the time being. Thanks to everyone for their comments while we were fine tuning the HD gear at KOMO-TV. Rest assured that I will still be around the AVS forum also, just with a new "handle", (that is if I can change it).

All The Best,

Kelly

Kelley

You escaped, great news!
Be careful, kicking back is very addictive. Took a month off 2 years ago, cleaned out the shop, found a thousand projects on the "someday" list and was very tempted to do nothing but. Was months before I could get back to real work !
Look forward to seeing the site.
Handle.........
How's about
Kelley Wazzat KOMO

Dan

I have it bookmarked and am looking forward to your content. If you find out how to change your handle, please share it with us.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing. Life's too short to put up with some things.

Bob

Hello to all my AVS Forum friends. Just a quick note to let everyone know that I am no longer with Fisher Communications, or KOMO TV. Life is too short for high stress and politics. I guess this means I need to figure out how to change my name on this board huh?

Anyway while I'm trying to determine what to do next, I will be taking a few much needed days off to get some domestic projects done, (and there are a lot), plus working on a new HD-DTV related website. Thank you very much for your new DTV Rules web site, I'll be checking on it. Assuming Fisher/KOMO hasn't imposed a harsh non-competition agreement preventing you from working for other broadcasters, you should have a great many opportunities as a consulting engineer with other broadcasters struggling to serve their audiences in the ATSC DTV era.

Thank you so much for your contributions here.

we moved and need to replace our antenna as it dropped off the back of the truck :( and got dinged up. it's not working so well.

would a Radio Shack 15-2160 be a good choice to replace it with? if not what would be? i'd like to try and get something we can pick up locally but am not opposed to going online if the price is right.

Also if i gave our cross streets in can someone still tell me what direction we should be pointing to try and get all channels? we seem to always have a problem getting channel 13. we're at 14th ST NE and M St NE in auburn

thanks for your help, i'm always recommending this site to others who are amazed we get HDTV OTA.

ETA after checking at www.antennaweb.org it says we need a (blue) medium directional with pre amp to get most all the channels we want 13.1 is at 283 degrees and the rest are at 326-331 degrees most are 22miles away with fox being 31. the 2160 is only a (yellow) small directional so i'm not sure that will work.

do we need UHF only antenna? or a VHF/UHF combo? i'm getting confused trying to figure this out.

Another candidate antenna is a Channel Master 4221, which can be bought at McLendon Hardware for $25 (at least in the Renton store--don't know about the Sumner store).

I live north of you, near Petrovitsky Road and 140th Ave SE (east of Valley General hospital). I started with a RS 15-2160 and used it from 1999 until this year. With it I was able to get 13.1 from Gold Mountain near Bremerton and all of the Seattle stations on Queen Anne Hill and Capitol Hill. I was not able to get channel 13 (west) and Tiger Mountain stations (PAX, etc., east) at the same time. I could swing the antenna to get one or the other. I was not concerned about PAX or the other Tiger Mountain channels.

Now with the 4221, I get almost the same results, for Bremerton and Seattle towers, solid reception. I changed antennas because the trees around us grew up and began to block signal paths to my 15-2160 mounted above my fireplace chimney. The 4221 is mounted below the eave of my house, shooting under those same trees.

So, with you being further south, the separation between Bremerton and Seattle towers would be less. Your issue for channel 13 might be the big hill to your west (I am guessing that your address is more in the valley and not on top of the hill, but I could be wrong). Dan Kurts or Quarque could tell you more about topology issues.

Good luck!

I wrote an email to the station manager yesterday asking about this. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.

clarification: KCPQ is licensed in Tacoma but the broadcast antenna is actually near Bremerton.

Cool about the email.

Even on Gold Mountain on Bremerton (I had to look that up:)), channel 13's transmitter is still 2.5x further away than KING's antenna on Queen Anne. I've looked at the radiation pattern for KING before, and it is peanut shaped, biased North and South with the weak spots toward the East side and to the West. I am almost in the fringe but only 9 or 10 miles from the transmitter, which just plain sucks. Hopefully the post analog shutoff signal will be more omnidirectional when (if) they re-align the radiators on their antenna.

The screwy part is that I am up on the hill on the Bellevue/Redmond border, next to Microsoft's campus but still in a weak spot. There is a hill running to West/SouthWest (Bridal Trails area), but everything else has plenty of signal, so I don't know what to make of it. The lay of the land is a be-yotch! Fortunately I am moving at the end of September, hopefully to a better reception area.

thanks Dave for the tip on the channelmaster 4221. i might have to check that out. we hooked up the 2160 and we got a lot better signal than we have for a while on 4,5,9,11, 16, and 22. 7 was weak but not flickering, no 13.

we are in the valley so the west hill might be blocking us. it does seem that if we move it to get the most channels we lose 13 and vice versa.

the current antenna is mounted on the roof of a two story house if that info is needed.

we moved and need to replace our antenna as it dropped off the back of the truck :( and got dinged up. it's not working so well.

would a Radio Shack 15-2160 be a good choice to replace it with? if not what would be? i'd like to try and get something we can pick up locally but am not opposed to going online if the price is right.

Also if i gave our cross streets in can someone still tell me what direction we should be pointing to try and get all channels? we seem to always have a problem getting channel 13. we're at 14th ST NE and M St NE in auburn

thanks for your help, i'm always recommending this site to others who are amazed we get HDTV OTA.

ETA after checking at www.antennaweb.org it says we need a (blue) medium directional with pre amp to get most all the channels we want 13.1 is at 283 degrees and the rest are at 326-331 degrees most are 22miles away with fox being 31. the 2160 is only a (yellow) small directional so i'm not sure that will work.

do we need UHF only antenna? or a VHF/UHF combo? i'm getting confused trying to figure this out.


ts_peach
Ch13 is a bear down there. The hill is in the way, even though it doesn't look like it on the topo program.
Until Feb09, you need a UHF to get 13. After, you'll need a VHF. Problem is, no one makes a high gain combo antenna. You will need to use a Jointenna to couple any ch13 with your main antenna. A single antenna is tough because the rest of the Seattle channels are strong which tends to cause the tuners internal amp to turn down its gain. That makes getting the much weaker 13 really tough. If you put an ampifier on the antenna, the Seattle channels will overload it and the tuner. An amplifed ch13 coupled to the other antenna with the Jointenna is the trick.

Problem is, all this may not work because of the hill.
And even if you do get it working, in 8 months, you get to do this again with a different antenna for 13, with a different Jointenna. It might be easier then. Or not. We won't know until they actually do the changeover. No way to test anything until then.

Ain't this fun ?!?!

Dan

thanks for the information. i looked at the jointennas. to possibly get 13 to come in i would need to have a UHF for channel 13? what is the actual channel number for them? looking on the jointenna site it lists 3 models for the UHF channel range and i don't know which one i'd need.

and then in 8-9 months we'd need to have the VHF one for channel 13?

assuming the hill would cooperate, the channelmaster UHF/VHF attenna that was dinged up in the move does still recieve signal (we have been using it with limited success for awhile). so i would just need the jointenna to see if it works (which are of course nonrefundable to buy online from the first place i looked :) )

Hurray! Success! and we didn't need to buy anything new. it turns out that we had a bad cable at the new house running from the antenna to the outlet (it had been there before we moved).

it took a few hours and trying three or four different antenna combinations but we had a RS 15-2186 indoor/outdoor amplified antenna pick up fox so i figured we could get it on the roof. turns out our old one that got banged up in the move still worked fine. it would have been a lot easier process if we had known the cable was no good (but we had a cable to replace it onhand). in essence we were only tuning in channels through the bad cable i think. anyways everything now comes in nice and strong.

so take that big hill!

ts_peach,

Another winner.

Enjoy your HDTV watching!

Hurray! Success! and we didn't need to buy anything new. it turns out that we had a bad cable at the new house running from the antenna to the outlet (it had been there before we moved).

it took a few hours and trying three or four different antenna combinations but we had a RS 15-2186 indoor/outdoor amplified antenna pick up fox so i figured we could get it on the roof. turns out our old one that got banged up in the move still worked fine. it would have been a lot easier process if we had known the cable was no good (but we had a cable to replace it onhand). in essence we were only tuning in channels through the bad cable i think. anyways everything now comes in nice and strong.

so take that big hill!


ts_peach
Persistance pays for a lucky location!
Buy a Lotto & Mega ticket tomorrow.
You're the first one I've heard of getting 13 in the downtown area.
Let us know what happens next Feb when 13 switches over.
Curious, what tuner are you using?
Dan

ts_peach
Curious, what tuner are you using?
Dan

i was wondering what might happen come next february, i'll let you know. the tuner we are using is an LG3510a that i picked up through this board two 1/2 years ago.

i was flipping channels all night just to see fox come in :) it took my dad and I 4ish hours to figure it all out and i in the end after we had figured out the bad cable and still couldn't get it to tune in, it was by chance that i realized that after he had done a rescan of availalble channels that when he tried manually turning it to 13-1 he really needed to be trying 18-1, that information was thanks to antennaweb.org . anyways the process was complicated but at least it's all working for now.

Anne-Marie

i was wondering what might happen come next february, i'll let you know. the tuner we are using is an LG3510a that i picked up through this board two 1/2 years ago.

i was flipping channels all night just to see fox come in :) it took my dad and I 4ish hours to figure it all out and i in the end after we had figured out the bad cable and still couldn't get it to tune in, it was by chance that i realized that after he had done a rescan of availalble channels that when he tried manually turning it to 13-1 he really needed to be trying 18-1, that information was thanks to antennaweb.org . anyways the process was complicated but at least it's all working for now.

Anne-Marie

ts_peach
I would bet a lot of your success comes from the LG tuner. It's a good one, sometimes. I own one for testing. Some of the ones I've run across are amazing, others just average. They didn't have consistent capabilities, sadly. Retired mine after the Samsung H260's came out. Hang on to it, and keep it well ventilated. Heat is about the only thing they die from.
Enjoy the HD!
Dan

BTW, did you ever work at Boeing, Plant2?

ts_peach
I would bet a lot of your success comes from the LG tuner. It's a good one, sometimes. I own one for testing. Some of the ones I've run across are amazing, others just average. They didn't have consistent capabilities, sadly. Retired mine after the Samsung H260's came out. Hang on to it, and keep it well ventilated. Heat is about the only thing they die from.
Enjoy the HD!
Dan

BTW, did you ever work at Boeing, Plant2?

nope never worked at Boeing :)

i'm glad i got the LG tuner then, was contemplating a samsung which i hadn't heard very good things about. thanks for the tip about ventilation.

Anne-Marie

The other evening, Friday evening, I could barely get a viewable signal for nearly all my channels. Once it started to get dark, things came back to normal. To my knowledge, things have been fine since then.

Was there some atmospheric event that could have caused this?

Hei, today I went to my local Radio Scratch with coupon in hand, to try and buy a converter box. I asked for the "Echostar box", but they don't carry it and have never heard of it.

My understanding is that those who know, are looking for the Echostar box, true? If so, where?

Hei, today I went to my local Radio Scratch with coupon in hand, to try and buy a converter box. I asked for the "Echostar box", but they don't carry it and have never heard of it.

My understanding is that those who know, are looking for the Echostar box, true? If so, where?

The "Echostar Box", otherwise known as the DTV Pal or TR-40, has not been released yet.

Please see this thread on the subject: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1001979

Thank you Whidbey. Hope my coupons don't expire by the time it's out. Just got them.

Is the TR-40 indeed the one to get?

Thank you Whidbey. Hope my coupons don't expire by the time it's out. Just got them.

Is the TR-40 indeed the one to get?

I'm only interested in it to see what the program guide and event timer will be like. Beyond that, feature wise it seems the same as most of the other boxes. As far as it being "the" box to get, it's too soon to tell.

Hi, I put up a db4 with amplifier recently--I wish I had found this site before buying but oh well. I'm up in Arlington (103 ave ne / 132 st ne) and we can't get cable. Satellite or OTA is our only choices. Currently we do OTA for our analog TV's (large antenna on roof) but I decided to trade up and purchased an HDTV and that's why I put the db4 up on the roof. I've been experimenting with moving the antenna around per antennaweb's coordinates and I'm getting okay results I guess. Initially I got KCTS HD (channel 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 I think) and KIRO HD (7.1, 7.2) but not much else. After adjusting the direction it was facing, I lost those channels but now I get KING HD (5.1, 5.2), KVOS digital, CW11 digital, and FOX HD (13.1, 13.2).

I hope I'm using the right terminology--HD for greater than 480i and digital for SD otherwise?
KING seems to tile more than the others--is this a sign of a weak signal? Would increasing the antenna's elevation get a better signal?
What options are there to get the other digital signals without having to constantly change the direction the antenna is facing?

I don't have anything that indicates signal strength--I'm just using the built in tuner on the HDTV. Also, I do see other analog channels but I'm not interested in those 'cause they're going away. Besides, what's the point of watching analog stations on an HDTV?

Thanks,
Peter

Hi, I put up a db4 with amplifier recently--I wish I had found this site before buying but oh well. I'm up in Arlington (103 ave ne / 132 st ne) and we can't get cable. Satellite or OTA is our only choices. Currently we do OTA for our analog TV's (large antenna on roof) but I decided to trade up and purchased an HDTV and that's why I put the db4 up on the roof. I've been experimenting with moving the antenna around per antennaweb's coordinates and I'm getting okay results I guess. Initially I got KCTS HD (channel 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 I think) and KIRO HD (7.1, 7.2) but not much else. After adjusting the direction it was facing, I lost those channels but now I get KING HD (5.1, 5.2), KVOS digital, CW11 digital, and FOX HD (13.1, 13.2).

I hope I'm using the right terminology--HD for greater than 480i and digital for SD otherwise?
KING seems to tile more than the others--is this a sign of a weak signal? Would increasing the antenna's elevation get a better signal?
What options are there to get the other digital signals without having to constantly change the direction the antenna is facing?

I don't have anything that indicates signal strength--I'm just using the built in tuner on the HDTV. Also, I do see other analog channels but I'm not interested in those 'cause they're going away. Besides, what's the point of watching analog stations on an HDTV?

Thanks,
Peter
Actually, you're right at the edge of the range for a db4 antenna. An amplifier is probably a necessity. The Channelmaster 4228 (8-bay UHF) might work better. Chances are increasing the height of the antenna will help. KIRO, KING, KONG, & KOMO are on Queen Anne Hill in Seattle. KCPQ I believe is across the sound. The others are on Capitol Hill. If I was setting up your antenna, I would first select KONG (analog 16) and orient the antenna for best reception and minimum ghosts. Multipath is the enemy of digital TV and is the same as ghosts on analog. After setting up for analog 16, then check the digital performance. Good luck!

Hi, I put up a db4 with amplifier recently--I wish I had found this site before buying but oh well. I'm up in Arlington (103 ave ne / 132 st ne) and we can't get cable. Satellite or OTA is our only choices. Currently we do OTA for our analog TV's (large antenna on roof) but I decided to trade up and purchased an HDTV and that's why I put the db4 up on the roof. I've been experimenting with moving the antenna around per antennaweb's coordinates and I'm getting okay results I guess. Initially I got KCTS HD (channel 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 I think) and KIRO HD (7.1, 7.2) but not much else. After adjusting the direction it was facing, I lost those channels but now I get KING HD (5.1, 5.2), KVOS digital, CW11 digital, and FOX HD (13.1, 13.2).

I hope I'm using the right terminology--HD for greater than 480i and digital for SD otherwise?
KING seems to tile more than the others--is this a sign of a weak signal? Would increasing the antenna's elevation get a better signal?
What options are there to get the other digital signals without having to constantly change the direction the antenna is facing?

I don't have anything that indicates signal strength--I'm just using the built in tuner on the HDTV. Also, I do see other analog channels but I'm not interested in those 'cause they're going away. Besides, what's the point of watching analog stations on an HDTV?

Thanks,
Peter

Peter
You're in a pretty good spot. The only thing that would bother you are trees for maybe a 1/4 mile. After that you're line of sight, a good thing. You are 35 miles from the main channels, though, so you want to get a bit more gain. A 4228 might help if you're not buried in trees. Also a good preamlifier, like the Channel Master 7777. If trees are an issue, then a yagi style antenna would work better, like the Channel Master 4248, or something similar.
Most newer HD sets have some kind of strength indicator somewhere in their menu's. Break out the owners manual and check again. Direction is not that critical from where you are. About 235 degrees, give or take. Trick is finding a spot where they all come in. It takes some patience, but can be done. Be aware that moving the antenna 8 inches in ANY direction can make or break. Once you change it, wait a good 30 seconds for the tuner to catch up to the changes.
The fact you're getting as much as you are now, though, says you're almost there.
Keep us posted on the progress.
Dan

I have been receiving 33.1-33.4 perfectly for 6 months using a CM4228 but in the last week the picture quality has deteriorated but the signal strength continues to be good (80%). The problems is that the picture gets blocky and there are audio dropouts. The analog picture is perfect. Has anyone else experienced this kind of problem?

Second problem is the loss of lip sync and brief freezes during some PBS HD (9.5) programs. I have been trying to figure out if it's a problem with my set (Vizio VU42LF) or the OTA broadcast. I suspect the set because my neighbor with a similar setup but a different set doesn't experience the problems. I've seen some indication of problems with PBS HD programs and was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems or is receiving a good signal with the same set.

Thanks

John

I have been receiving 33.1-33.4 perfectly for 6 months using a CM4228 but in the last week the picture quality has deteriorated but the signal strength continues to be good (80%). The problems is that the picture gets blocky and there are audio dropouts. The analog picture is perfect. Has anyone else experienced this kind of problem?

Second problem is the loss of lip sync and brief freezes during some PBS HD (9.5) programs. I have been trying to figure out if it's a problem with my set (Vizio VU42LF) or the OTA broadcast. I suspect the set because my neighbor with a similar setup but a different set doesn't experience the problems. I've seen some indication of problems with PBS HD programs and was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems or is receiving a good signal with the same set.

Thanks

John

John
The strength indicator is not measuring actual signal level, just signal to noise ratio. For the last six months you could have had 100% readings, yet really had lousy reception all along. HD reception will always look perfect. When you get near the edge of the tuners ability to lock on, you're seeing the results. It could be leaves on trees filling out, a house being built in your signal path a mile away, who knows. I highly doubt it's your TV. Double check your connection on the antenna, where the balun attaches. Also, if you didn't seal your balun well, they can allow water to seep in around the end where the two wires go into the plastic. In time, it rusts out. Water inside will definitely give you goofy results. If in doubt, just replace it. Another one at Rat Shack is only a few bucks. And put a new end on the cable, too.
Dan

I am thinking about getting rid of my Comcast HDTV and getting an Antenna. I currently reside in an apartment. What would be a good suggestion for an antenna that hopefully isn't too bulky. Also what channels might I be able to get in HD. Thanks!

I am thinking about getting rid of my Comcast HDTV and getting an Antenna. I currently reside in an apartment. What would be a good suggestion for an antenna that hopefully isn't too bulky. Also what channels might I be able to get in HD. Thanks!

Depends on where you live.

I am thinking about getting rid of my Comcast HDTV and getting an Antenna. I currently reside in an apartment. What would be a good suggestion for an antenna that hopefully isn't too bulky. Also what channels might I be able to get in HD. Thanks!

Post back with your location (cross streets is sufficient) and folks here can tell you what your reception will probably be like. Realize that most indoor antennas don't do very well in our area. But the Philips Silver Sensor is generally regarded as one of the best.

PBSHD(9.5) - I've been experiencing problems with this channel for about the last 3 or 4 weeks. Before then I had no problems. But now for about 80% of the time when I tune into PBSHD, I'll be watching it through my MCE HTPC and after about 5 minutes, it'll blink out for about 1/2 a second, be fine for a minute, blink again for about 1/2 a second, and then on the third blink it'll give me a "Video error" warning and tell me I need to restart MCE. Restarting MCE doesn't always solve the problem.

I don't have this problem on the other channels (KOMO, KING, KIRO, KMYQ).

Did PBS change something in their signal? Didn't they add another subchannel to their lineup? Did that take away bandwidth from the PBSHD channel? Or, do I just need to re-align my roof antenna (which is not a fun thing to do)?


Has anyone found a fix for this "video error" when viewing kcts-hd on xp/wmc? If I convert the recorded programs from .dvr-ms to straight .mpg, the video plays with no errors. I hope Microsoft provides a fix soon.

Perhaps an engineer at KCTS might know what's going on?

John
The strength indicator is not measuring actual signal level, just signal to noise ratio. For the last six months you could have had 100% readings, yet really had lousy reception all along. HD reception will always look perfect. When you get near the edge of the tuners ability to lock on, you're seeing the results. It could be leaves on trees filling out, a house being built in your signal path a mile away, who knows. I highly doubt it's your TV. Double check your connection on the antenna, where the balun attaches. Also, if you didn't seal your balun well, they can allow water to seep in around the end where the two wires go into the plastic. In time, it rusts out. Water inside will definitely give you goofy results. If in doubt, just replace it. Another one at Rat Shack is only a few bucks. And put a new end on the cable, too.
Dan

Thanks Dan,

My signal strength measurements come from a PC ATSC tuner card that gives me both signal strength (86%) and SNR (3.6db) - it locks on quickly and seems to stay locked but picture quality is poor. For comparison another 1400' up the hill from me is the broadcast tower for KVOS but while the signal strength is really high the multipath kills any reception.

I just redid (6 weeks ago) my setup thinking that my problems with PBS HD were due to poor signal quality. I ganged 2 CM4228s and redid all the connections.and everything was working great (though 9.5 didn't improve at all) and I'm even able to get good digital signal on KBTCDT 28.* most nights. 33.1 was great until 5/21 when it started having problems. I live 1100' up with a fairly clear shot to Seattle and the trees around me are all firs and cedars so new foliage may be an issue though I don't have the dramatic changes of hardwoods - haven't seen any new rearrangements either. The reason I can point to 5/21 is because I record a program nightly on 33.1 and on 5/20 and earlier I had good recordings but on 5/21 and after the recordings are poor. I am far away from the broadcast tower so atmospheric conditions are an issue but generally I get good reception on the Seattle DTV stations. Seems like whatever changed didn't affect others so I'm SOL for reception on ION 33 DTV.

Thanks

John

I have been receiving 33.1-33.4 perfectly for 6 months using a CM4228 but in the last week the picture quality has deteriorated but the signal strength continues to be good (80%). The problems is that the picture gets blocky and there are audio dropouts. The analog picture is perfect. Has anyone else experienced this kind of problem?

Second problem is the loss of lip sync and brief freezes during some PBS HD (9.5) programs. I have been trying to figure out if it's a problem with my set (Vizio VU42LF) or the OTA broadcast. I suspect the set because my neighbor with a similar setup but a different set doesn't experience the problems. I've seen some indication of problems with PBS HD programs and was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems or is receiving a good signal with the same set.

Thanks

John

KCTS HD is so bit starved that I think you need a really good processor in your receiver to get a good picture/sound. My sony xbr3 lcd can handle it pretty well, although I get intermittent 1/2 second audio dropouts on my audio amp when the dolby digital stream loses lock or something. My low-end philips 19" lcd doesn't do well at all with the low bitrate. Audio seems to be ok, but video is unwatchable with all the stuttering and frame drops. Completely aggravating, buy hey at least we can watch reruns of Bob Ross on the other KCTS sub-channels! NOT.

Edit to add: My philips is using QAM off Comcast, so my example isn't apples to apples comparison. The comcast STB does ok with the KCTS HD feed (occasional drops etc, just like my OTA experience with my Sony). So I guess my comparison should be: Comcast STB on QAM = ok, Philips low-end LCD tuner on QAM = sucks. Sony LCD tuner on OTA = ok, Philips low-end LCD tuner on OTA = ???. If I get some time, I'll go swap the Philips over to OTA and test. My guess is that the Philips will barf with the OTA connection too.

KCTS HD looks pretty good to me, using either my Vizio's built-in tuner or my Directv AM21 OTA tuner. I have no sound problems with any of these. Using my HDHomeRun tuner with my Mac Mini (which is a bit underpowered), I notice some frame dropping, but the audio doesn't have any problems there, either.

Tschall, who is an engineer at KCTS, shows up here occasionally and may have some helpful information.

Thanks Dan,

My signal strength measurements come from a PC ATSC tuner card that gives me both signal strength (86%) and SNR (3.6db) - it locks on quickly and seems to stay locked but picture quality is poor. For comparison another 1400' up the hill from me is the broadcast tower for KVOS but while the signal strength is really high the multipath kills any reception.

I just redid (6 weeks ago) my setup thinking that my problems with PBS HD were due to poor signal quality. I ganged 2 CM4228s and redid all the connections.and everything was working great (though 9.5 didn't improve at all) and I'm even able to get good digital signal on KBTCDT 28.* most nights. 33.1 was great until 5/21 when it started having problems. I live 1100' up with a fairly clear shot to Seattle and the trees around me are all firs and cedars so new foliage may be an issue though I don't have the dramatic changes of hardwoods - haven't seen any new rearrangements either. The reason I can point to 5/21 is because I record a program nightly on 33.1 and on 5/20 and earlier I had good recordings but on 5/21 and after the recordings are poor. I am far away from the broadcast tower so atmospheric conditions are an issue but generally I get good reception on the Seattle DTV stations. Seems like whatever changed didn't affect others so I'm SOL for reception on ION 33 DTV.

Thanks

John

I talked to an engineer at KWPX (33) today and he figures it's lucky that I'm getting any digital signal from KWPX since the tower is about 90 mi from me. So I'm thankful that I get as good reception as I do on the Seattle DTV channels and happy that I don't have to pay for cable or satellite. I hope that PBS fixes their HD signal so I can receive all the programming without problems.

Oddly enough I'm getting perfect reception today of the KWPX DTV signals for the first time in a week. For the record I'm currently getting 75% signal strength and 25 db SNR for 32. Hope that keeps up.

Thanks

John

Peter
You're in a pretty good spot. The only thing that would bother you are trees for maybe a 1/4 mile. After that you're line of sight, a good thing. You are 35 miles from the main channels, though, so you want to get a bit more gain. A 4228 might help if you're not buried in trees. Also a good preamlifier, like the Channel Master 7777. If trees are an issue, then a yagi style antenna would work better, like the Channel Master 4248, or something similar.
Most newer HD sets have some kind of strength indicator somewhere in their menu's. Break out the owners manual and check again. Direction is not that critical from where you are. About 235 degrees, give or take. Trick is finding a spot where they all come in. It takes some patience, but can be done. Be aware that moving the antenna 8 inches in ANY direction can make or break. Once you change it, wait a good 30 seconds for the tuner to catch up to the changes.
The fact you're getting as much as you are now, though, says you're almost there.
Keep us posted on the progress.
Dan

Thanks Dan, Myron for the advice. Just so I'm with you...using a compass...I line up the arrow (pointing N) with N on the rotating bezel then point the antenna in the direction pertaining to the given degrees. Is this right? So I moved it from what was about 130 degrees to 145 which actually lines up with a break in the trees and looks right above my neighbor's barn. Now I get King5 HD, Kiro HD, and Fox HD. Not too shabby. I did find the tuner signal strength indicator on the HDTV and all channels are coming in around high 40 to 50 percent. I did notice that when the signal strength read in the low 30's I would get tiling and loss of signal. Unfortunately the channel with the strongest signal--60--was a stupid shopping channel :mad: what a crime!
I'm going to try giving the antenna some more height--an additional 10'. Do you think that will make a difference? For the mast, can I use schedule 40 PVC or should I just stick with metal?

Thanks Dan, Myron for the advice. Just so I'm with you...using a compass...I line up the arrow (pointing N) with N on the rotating bezel then point the antenna in the direction pertaining to the given degrees. Is this right? So I moved it from what was about 130 degrees to 145 which actually lines up with a break in the trees and looks right above my neighbor's barn. Now I get King5 HD, Kiro HD, and Fox HD. Not too shabby. I did find the tuner signal strength indicator on the HDTV and all channels are coming in around high 40 to 50 percent. I did notice that when the signal strength read in the low 30's I would get tiling and loss of signal. Unfortunately the channel with the strongest signal--60--was a stupid shopping channel :mad: what a crime!
I'm going to try giving the antenna some more height--an additional 10'. Do you think that will make a difference? For the mast, can I use schedule 40 PVC or should I just stick with metal?

nwdiver
North is zero degrees, where the arrow points, due south 180 degrees, due west 270 degrees. You should be about 235, or roughly between south and west. It's not that exact. Surrounding obstacles will change things a bit. Just start there.
ALWAYS use a metal mast, and ground it. If you go another ten feet, be sure it's either guyed or securely buttoned down to take the winds, which I know you get up there. And make sure the two masts are bolted together so one doesn't rotate on the other and change the antenna direction.
Dan

nwdiver
North is zero degrees, where the arrow points, due south 180 degrees, due west 270 degrees. You should be about 235, or roughly between south and west. It's not that exact. Surrounding obstacles will change things a bit. Just start there.
ALWAYS use a metal mast, and ground it. If you go another ten feet, be sure it's either guyed or securely buttoned down to take the winds, which I know you get up there. And make sure the two masts are bolted together so one doesn't rotate on the other and change the antenna direction.
Dan

Don't forget to subtract 17 degrees for magnetic declination to get true North, which is what the headings are referenced from. :) If you look at any mapping site (google, yahoo, mapquest, etc), all of them are oriented from true North.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp


Has anyone heard anything about 45.4 Sportsman channel? I still have a test pattern. I am missing all the bear hunting shows. :mad:

Some sites, such as TVFool, give both true and magnetic bearings.

Don't forget to subtract 17 degrees for magnetic declination to get true North, which is what the headings are referenced from. :) If you look at any mapping site (google, yahoo, mapquest, etc), all of them are oriented from true North.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp


Has anyone heard anything about 45.4 Sportsman channel? I still have a test pattern. I am missing all the bear hunting shows. :mad:


M$GUY
So true, pun intended!
Thing is, most compasses I've tried, even the spendy ones, aren't that accurate. Get them near trees and houses and they change a bit. Add in antenna's aren't that fussy, and it makes the difference for aiming purposes not critical. What does matter is when the decoder in the tuner will lock on to the signal. Point the antenna in the general direction, and then tweak from there. Depending on obstacles and terrain, you might be off 20 or 30 degrees, but if it works, life is good.
Dan

Has anyone heard anything about 45.4 Sportsman channel? I still have a test pattern. I am missing all the bear hunting shows. :mad:

It's not going to be carried anymore due to viewer complaints.

It's not going to be carried anymore due to viewer complaints. What viewer complaints?

Isn't it strange that KHCV, KWPX, KTBW, KWDK and KBCB don't offer any known locally-generated programming? No local Seattle-area news or public affairs shows, no local cartoon shows a la JP Patches... is broadcasting so deregulated that these "local" stations actually don't have to carry ANYTHING created in their local community of license?

What viewer complaints?

Isn't it strange that KHCV, KWPX, KTBW, KWDK and KBCB don't offer any known locally-generated programming? No local Seattle-area news or public affairs shows, no local cartoon shows a la JP Patches... is broadcasting so deregulated that these "local" stations actually don't have to carry ANYTHING created in their local community of license?

Pretty much... nice article here (http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/P/htmlP/publicintere/publicintere.htm) about the evolution and erosion of the "public interest, convenience, and necessity" clause in the Communications Act of 1934. Here is the part of the article that rings true:

"The deregulatory fervor of the 1980s seriously challenged the trusteeship model of broadcasting. Obviously, this same move toward deregulation subsequently challenged the means by which satisfaction of the "public interest, convenience and necessity" should be determined. The rise of cable television undermined the "scarcity of the spectrum" argument because of the newer system's potential for unlimited channel capacity. The trusteeship model was replaced with the "marketplace" model (which had always undergirded commercial broadcasting in America). It was now argued that the contemporary, commercially supported telecommunications environment could provide a multiplicity of voices, eradicating the previous justification for government regulation. Under this model the public interest would be defined by "market forces." A broadcaster's commercial success would be indicative of the public's satisfaction with it."

It's not going to be carried anymore due to viewer complaints.

Complaints from WHO? I was THRILLED to find this channel when I put in an OTA antenna. Now it is gone. I think it was most likely due to lack of provable viewership. How do you figure out who is watching your channel OTA, since it is passive in nature? Everyone could be watching it, or nobody could be watching it.

Oh well, as we all know, marketing folk will rip things out for no reason (sometimes with good reason, like it isn't making any money).

Complaints from WHO? I was THRILLED to find this channel when I put in an OTA antenna. Now it is gone. I think it was most likely due to lack of provable viewership. How do you figure out who is watching your channel OTA, since it is passive in nature? Everyone could be watching it, or nobody could be watching it.

Oh well, as we all know, marketing folk will rip things out for no reason (sometimes with good reason, like it isn't making any money).

I asked about getting schedule info for the Sportsman channel after the switch from America One and received the above comment a month later when the Sportsman channel had already been removed. I speculate that some didn't like the content compared to America One.

John

Anyone having a problem with the picture jumping a lot on CSI channel 7 (DTV) Thursday night 6/5/08? I've also noticed noticeably worse reception recently on 7 DTV and 5 DTV and don't know if it's the generator replacement job our apt building is undergoing (the old one they took out was on the roof), our Antenna being out of whack or something else.

Anyone having a problem with the picture jumping a lot on CSI channel 7 (DTV) Thursday night 6/5/08? I've also noticed noticeably worse reception recently on 7 DTV and 5 DTV and don't know if it's the generator replacement job our apt building is undergoing (the old one they took out was on the roof), our Antenna being out of whack or something else.

I saw the problem on comcast too. The picture shifted vertically, then back. Since it was a rerun I only watched for about 30 seconds and saw the issue once.

I noticed lots of jumping on Letterman the past couple of nights. Glad to know it's not my computer's fault.

I have a friend who lives at 3111 York Rd in Everett, WA.

Does he have a chance at receiving any OTA signal? Before purchasing an antenna I wanted to post here for him.

thank you for any help!!!

Anyone having a problem with the picture jumping a lot on CSI channel 7 (DTV) Thursday night 6/5/08? I've also noticed noticeably worse reception recently on 7 DTV and 5 DTV and don't know if it's the generator replacement job our apt building is undergoing (the old one they took out was on the roof), our Antenna being out of whack or something else. I noticed several strange instances of KIRO-DT 7.1 picture jumping using a Zenith DTT900 CECB on CSI connected to a standard-def Sony Trinitron 20" bedroom TV. I was viewing in widescreen mode. KIRO 7.1 picture jumping also occurred during the CBS program Swingtown the same evening.

In recent days, I've noticed several instances where KIRO 7.1 has also exhibited significant problems with audio-video lip synchronization. Wonder what's up?

P.S. Signal strength on KIRO DT 7.1 and 7.2 has been relatively stable and solid compared with KOMO-DT and KING-DT.

KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm)and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?

OK guys, thanks for verifying the image jumping problem. Hopefully they've got it sorted out now. I think my reception problems recently are linked to the huge CAT generator install our apt building just underwent. They were doing some work up on the roof where the antenna is. It seems to be better now though.

KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm)and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?

It is highly unlikely that the signals from the TV station transmitters are fluctuating in strength.

It is more likely that you are seeing the effects of partial blockages and/or multipath interference caused by signals reflected and arriving at your receiver slightly later than the direct-path signal.

The indicators on digital TV tuners do not normally show signal strength. They typical provide "signal quality" information that can be based on a combination of signal strength, signal to noise ratio and/or received bit error rates.

Where I live, as the leaves appear on the trees in my line of sight to Seattle, I get more fluctuations in usable signal quality than in the wintertime when the leaves are gone. It can get worse when the leaves are wet.

I thought raising my antenna as high as I could would be the best way to deal with this, but my recent experiences have been that lowering my antenna nearly 20 feet yielded better signal quality across the board.

Lacking suitable test equipment, the best method is trial and error by moving the antenna location and orientation.

KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm)and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?

KOMO's VHF antenna is at the top of the tower. The UHF antenna used for digital is lower down. It is also on the side of the tower, which doesn't help in some directions (it is particularly poor to the west). Hopefully after the 2/2009 transition they will switch to a UHF antenna at the top, with better coverage. If it weren't for trees I could probably see the towers from my roof, but reception of KOMO was a real problem for me until DirecTV started carrying the digital signal.

I noticed several strange instances of KIRO-DT 7.1 picture jumping using a Zenith DTT900 CECB on CSI connected to a standard-def Sony Trinitron 20" bedroom TV. I was viewing in widescreen mode. KIRO 7.1 picture jumping also occurred during the CBS program Swingtown the same evening.

In recent days, I've noticed several instances where KIRO 7.1 has also exhibited significant problems with audio-video lip synchronization. Wonder what's up?

P.S. Signal strength on KIRO DT 7.1 and 7.2 has been relatively stable and solid compared with KOMO-DT and KING-DT.

I saw the same "jumping" when watching my DirecTV DVR recording of Swingtown yesterday. This was recorded from DirecTV's KIRO-HD, not OTA, so it's obviously a network or local KIRO issue.

I have a friend who lives at 3111 York Rd in Everett, WA.

Does he have a chance at receiving any OTA signal? Before purchasing an antenna I wanted to post here for him.

thank you for any help!!!

DirkPitt
It's not impossible, but he's in a small valley and there's a bunch of trees in his way for about 2 miles. Location of the antenna may be fussy. Patience will help. I've done a couple north of the field with better location, and it was still hit and miss trying to find a sweet spot for all channels.
Dan

KOMO-DT seems to have more signal-level fluctuation than KIRO and KING. KONG is proving quite elusive to pull in, even at times when I can obtain good suburban rception on KING-DT.

While this is good news for Comcast (I'll keep subscribing to the $16/month Limited Basic Service for now), it's disappointing because the DTV transmissions generally have superior PQ than the mildly-diluted analog cable TV versions.

I understand KONG shares the KING Queen Anne tower, but the KONG transmitter is 20 metres lower in altitude (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm)and somewhat lower powered.

KOMO-DT's transmission pattern is a bit harder to comprehend. The DTV transmitter is at a slightly lower altitude than KING-DT. Any insight?

seatacboy
KONG is licensed for 5000kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=35396
KING is licensed for 960kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=34847
Kong is much lower in frequency, so it also goes farther. They do have different patterns, which somewhat affects reception in different directions.

They don't fluctuate in any amount that your tuner would notice. It's conditions between point A & B, your antenna and receiver.
The antenna locations on the towers do affect signal a little, but it's not as much as you would think. The bad spots because of it are pretty well known, and they're only a few. The main one is KOMO, northwest towards the Locks. A few small places on Magnolia, too, but that's about all I've found. My meter will show the pattern, it's very unique. There are gazillions of places where the signal is ugly, but it's always due to the terrain and obstacles.

The small difference in tower height between 4,5, & 7 is not really significant.
As for signal jumping and moving around on the locals on satellite, I see it it at times as well. When I channel/up to the same local on antenna, through the same receiver, it always stops. This points to the satellite portion of the local signal getting to you, not local transmitters.
The satellite problem is particularly maddening because they move the program signals around on the transponders to foil the hackers. The internal lookup table, for what's on which, keeps it all working so you never see any change. It makes tweaking the dish for a particular channel a pain, as it keeps changing. I also see minor glitches on other channels, like FSNW.

As for the locals over air, though, I have the readings and waveshape patterns written down, so when there's a real problem, I can compare for any changes. The few times there have been problems, it's very obvious. All looks normal at this time.
Dan

seatacboy
KONG is licensed for 5000kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=35396
KING is licensed for 960kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=34847
Kong is much lower in frequency, so it also goes farther. They do have different patterns, which somewhat affects reception in different directions.

For the sake of clarity, 5000 kW is for KONG's analog signal on channel 16. KONG-DT 35 is at 700 kW.

- Trip

For the sake of clarity, 5000 kW is for KONG's analog signal on channel 16. KONG-DT 35 is at 700 kW.

- Trip

Here's a list for all of the local digital stations (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm).

They don't fluctuate in any amount that your tuner would notice. It's conditions between point A & B, your antenna and receiver.
The antenna locations on the towers do affect signal a little, but it's not as much as you would think. The bad spots because of it are pretty well known, and they're only a few. The main one is KOMO, northwest towards the Locks. A few small places on Magnolia, too, but that's about all I've found. My meter will show the pattern, it's very unique. There are gazillions of places where the signal is ugly, but it's always due to the terrain and obstacles.

The small difference in tower height between 4,5, & 7 is not really significant. As for signal jumping and moving around on the locals on satellite, I see it it at times as well. When I channel/up to the same local on antenna, through the same receiver, it always stops. This points to the satellite portion of the local signal getting to you, not local transmitters. The satellite problem is particularly maddening because they move the program signals around on the transponders to foil the hackers. The internal lookup table, for what's on which, keeps it all working so you never see any change. It makes tweaking the dish for a particular channel a pain, as it keeps changing. I also see minor glitches on other channels, like FSNW.

As for the locals over air, though, I have the readings and waveshape patterns written down, so when there's a real problem, I can compare for any changes. The few times there have been problems, it's very obvious. All looks normal at this time.
Dan Thanks for the feedback. While I've kept analog Comcast Limited Cable Service, Comcast's PQ generally has been good but not as transparent as OTA DTV. Until I can find a good Clear QAM tuner, I also can't get the subchannels like KIRO 7.2 (RTN) and the various KCTS and KBTC subchannels.

Yesterday, while healing up from a back sprain, I was watching KIRO 7.2 RTN in my bedroom from 1:00 in the afternoon with absolutely no pixellation or noticeable dropouts, signal strength at about 75%. At about 3:40 pm, KIRO 7.2's signal strength started fluctuating around and dropping out. I missed the final plot details of The Wild, Wild West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Wild_West) episode The Night of the Tottering Tontine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0748583/)! It had been rock-solid for a few days, and since yesterday afternoon it's been intermittent.

By contrast, absolutely stable picture on KING 5.1 and 5.2 (stable at a relatively so-so 65-70% signal strength on the DTT-900).

I've wondered if some individual or business in my area is making low-power wireless transmissions in the frequency range of UHF 38 (KOMO) or UHF 39 (KIRO)? Nothing shows up on an analog TV in those frequencies. I've heard some wireless Internet services, wireless routers, or even wireless mice could be using UHF frequencies. Is there any way to tell? TV Fool info for my location (http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/df4fb51875/getdigital.php)

P.S. At my location, KUNS, KWDK, KWPX, KHCV and KBTC are very easy to receive. On KUNS, KWPX and KBTC, I can often get 80% to 90% signal strength. Again, signal strength doesn't measure other problems like multipath reflections.

KMYQ, KCTS, and KSTW are fairly easy to receive on DTV (and received, albeit with a fair amount of snow and some ghosting, on analog). Typically 65% to 80% signal strength.

KIRO, KING, KOMO can be received in DTV but very sensitive to aerial placement. KIRO and KOMO seem to fluctuate more than KING 48. (On analog, KIRO viewable with snow and some ghosting; KOMO and KING unviewable in analog)

KONG-DT is very difficult to receive (analog 16 comes in with some snow and ghosting). Typically 30% to 40% signal strength.

For the sake of clarity, 5000 kW is for KONG's analog signal on channel 16. KONG-DT 35 is at 700 kW.

- Trip

Trip
Well shut my mouth wide open! If I had scrolled down it was there.
It's been a while since I checked. When they first came on the air, they were the same. Then they had to dial back because they were bothering Victoria, BC. They were running on backup transmitter as an easy way to dial power back. When I spoke with their engineer, (in the days when they would call you back) he said it would be back to the same as analog when they sorted things out. Since their signal started getting much stronger over the last year or so, I assumed the original power.
In any case, thanks for the heads up.
Dan

I've been reading much of this thread in hopes of finding out why I can't seem to get much in the way of OTA reception here in North Everett.

My system is a Radioshack U-75R (which may be the problem as people around here don't seem to keen on Radioshack antennas!) that's mounted in my attic about 17' up with about 50' of coax running to my TV (Sony 40W3000 if that matters.)

No matter which direction it's pointing, I *barely* (unwatchable) get channels 29 and 33.

I live at 16th and McDougall (zip here is 98201) and here's what TVFool says I should get:

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http://homepage.mac.com/landon/LandonFool.png

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Help!

Thanks! This is my first post and the information contained here is awesome!

-Landon

I've wondered if some individual or business in my area is making low-power wireless transmissions in the frequency range of UHF 38 (KOMO) or UHF 39 (KIRO)? Nothing shows up on an analog TV in those frequencies. I've heard some wireless Internet services, wireless routers, or even wireless mice could be using UHF frequencies. Is there any way to tell? TV Fool info for my location (http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/df4fb51875/getdigital.php)


I remember we once had one of our AT&T cell sites getting knocked out of service (the radios would all seal up and park themselves) due to interference from a privately-owned faulty fiber optic repeater/amplifier located almost 20 miles away. Some component in the bad amp was spitting out spurious broadband RF noise that affected our 850MHz radios. It took our cell tech 2 weeks and the help from some Navy folks at Whidbey to DF the source of the problem.

So it might not be something that is using the same frequency or even an RF emitting device when operating normally. If so, it may be impossible to track down easily.

I remember we once had one of our AT&T cell sites getting knocked out of service (the radios would all seal up and park themselves) due to interference from a privately-owned faulty fiber optic repeater/amplifier located almost 20 miles away. Some component in the bad amp was spitting out spurious broadband RF noise that affected our 850MHz radios. It took our cell tech 2 weeks and the help from some Navy folks at Whidbey to DF the source of the problem.

So it might not be something that is using the same frequency or even an RF emitting device when operating normally. If so, it may be impossible to track down easily. That's helpful background.
UHF channel 38 = 615.25 MHz video
UHF channel 39 = 621.25 MHz video

I've been reading much of this thread in hopes of finding out why I can't seem to get much in the way of OTA reception here in North Everett.

My system is a Radioshack U-75R (which may be the problem as people around here don't seem to keen on Radioshack antennas!) that's mounted in my attic about 17' up with about 50' of coax running to my TV (Sony 40W3000 if that matters.)

No matter which direction it's pointing, I *barely* (unwatchable) get channels 29 and 33.

I live at 16th and McDougall (zip here is 98201) and here's what TVFool says I should get:

-----

http://homepage.mac.com/landon/LandonFool.png

----


Help!

Thanks! This is my first post and the information contained here is awesome!

-Landon

Landon
I assume you're talking about local HD. You're in the shadow of the big hill to the south where Paine Field is. There's also a solid forest on the hill that soaks up signal. Being in the attic just makes it worse. I did a few repairs for apartments just south of you decades ago when there wasn't even cable. Analog reception was always very poor. Even at the Pringles wholesaler that used to be down the street from you at 11th and Broadway, it was poor. And they had a very nice setup. Never say never, but of the few HD surveys I've done in town, they all looked bad for the locals from Seattle.
The few you are getting are from the SE where the hill doesn't come into play.
Dan

That's helpful background.
UHF channel 38 = 615.25 MHz video
UHF channel 39 = 621.25 MHz video

seatacboy

HD ch 38 is 614 to 620mhz
HD ch 39 is 620 to 626mhz
And it ALL needs to get there. Analog has the narrow video carrier.

But, as I mentioned before about your area, if there were problems with ANY spurious RF noise, the airport and all the hotels around there would be all over it, NOW.

At Boeing field, if you look at the big building, northwest side, with the big checkerboard pattern on the north side, (3-390 building) there's a gazillion antennas up there. It's for all the radio and assorted RF testing guys. They monitor everything around the area as well and report that kind of stuff all the time. They usually don't catch major problems, just the small stuff, but their gear is super sensitive, so if there were problems, it would get reported.
And I would bet they still have an antenna for monitoring on the north tower of the Sea Tac towers, where the 13 Coins is, too.

You need to find a better place to crash!

Dan

seatacboy
HD ch 38 is 614 to 620mhz
HD ch 39 is 620 to 626mhz
And it ALL needs to get there. Analog has the narrow video carrier.

But, as I mentioned before about your area, if there were problems with ANY spurious RF noise, the airport and all the hotels around there would be all over it, NOW.

At Boeing field, if you look at the big building, northwest side, with the big checkerboard pattern on the north side, (3-390 building) there's a gazillion antennas up there. It's for all the radio and assorted RF testing guys. They monitor everything around the area as well and report that kind of stuff all the time. They usually don't catch major problems, just the small stuff, but their gear is super sensitive, so if there were problems, it would get reported. And I would bet they still have an antenna for monitoring on the north tower of the Sea Tac towers, where the 13 Coins is, too.

You need to find a better place to crash!Dan :) Thanks for responding about the unlikelihood of spurious RF noise in the vicinity of Seatac airport.

I really enjoy living in this neighborhood east of the airport - but OTA HD and DTV reception can be frustrating here. It's a good neighborhood for subscribing to Comcast Limited Basic as a dependable video signal, particularly since occasionally I've had helicopters hover overhead and totally ruin ATSC OTA reception.

Landon
I assume you're talking about local HD. You're in the shadow of the big hill to the south where Paine Field is. There's also a solid forest on the hill that soaks up signal. Being in the attic just makes it worse. I did a few repairs for apartments just south of you decades ago when there wasn't even cable. Analog reception was always very poor. Even at the Pringles wholesaler that used to be down the street from you at 11th and Broadway, it was poor. And they had a very nice setup. Never say never, but of the few HD surveys I've done in town, they all looked bad for the locals from Seattle.
The few you are getting are from the SE where the hill doesn't come into play.
Dan

Thanks Dan!

I tried a channel master 4221 today with almost the same exact results - bummer!

Do you think something like a carefully aimed 4248 would make a difference for me? Or maybe an amp?

Again, thanks for any help!

-Landon

Thanks Dan!

I tried a channel master 4221 today with almost the same exact results - bummer!

Do you think something like a carefully aimed 4248 would make a difference for me? Or maybe an amp?

Again, thanks for any help!

-Landon

Landon
The only thing that will work is going up a couple of hundred feet.
Maybe.
UHF is very line of sight, and you're really in a shadow. It was tough getting Magnolia's store, on Everett Mall Way, up and working for HD, and they're on top of the hill, 40ft above the road. Signal gets very fussy around there.

Comcast cable, Basic $13/mo option, will work for the HD locals if your tuner is QAM capable, which I believe the Sony's are. Check your owners manual. The channels may be on goofy numbers, but you will see them. Some of the newer ones are now mapping to the correct channels. One of this forums members, pastiche, is a hero, keeping up the channel conversion list, they keep moving things around.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13296715#post13296715
Give him a thanks if you download his list.

Dan

It was tough getting Magnolia's store, on Everett Mall Way, up and working for HD, and they're on top of the hill, 40ft above the road. Signal gets very fussy around there.


That's surprising - I have a friend who lives very close to there. He uses a 4221 pointed straight into a pine tree and has no problem getting HD.

I guess you can't over-emphasize how finicky digital signals can be.

Comcast cable, Basic $13/mo option, will work for the HD locals if your tuner is QAM capable, which I believe the Sony's are. Check your owners manual. The channels may be on goofy numbers, but you will see them. Some of the newer ones are now mapping to the correct channels. One of this forums members, pastiche, is a hero, keeping up the channel conversion list, they keep moving things around.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13296715#post13296715
Give him a thanks if you download his list.Dan Comcast now defines "Basic Cable" as analog "expanded basic"; it costs about $53/month for 65 channels.

You may want what Comcast calls "Limited Cable Service": Comcast's lowest TV service level, with about 30 channels. This is the only service level on which local governments can regulate the price. The price varies by a couple of dollars depending on your city. In the City of SeaTac, it's $14.80/month plus about $1 in tax. In the City of Seattle, its about $2/month less; generally your total bill with tax will be around $15 to $17.

I'm on the prowl for a low-cost QAM decoder box to use with my older TVs.

That's surprising - I have a friend who lives very close to there. He uses a 4221 pointed straight into a pine tree and has no problem getting HD.

I guess you can't over-emphasize how finicky digital signals can be.

Whidbey
This is what has been HD's problem all along. It's very inconsistent. At that store, I was a good 40ft above the street, plus more from the mast, could see over everything to the south and west. KOMO was the hard to get channel there. Walked all over the whole roof, one channel better, one worse. Ended up with a big yagi and preamp.
It's also what makes antenna selection and results prediction, strictly on data, a bit optomistic.
I still get surprised from time to time, both good and bad. Good news is newer receivers in TV's and boxes are getting much, much better.
Dan

No matter which direction it's pointing, I *barely* (unwatchable) get channels 29 and 33. I live at 16th and McDougall (zip here is 98201) and here's what TVFool says I should get:
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http://homepage.mac.com/landon/LandonFool.png

---- What is being televised on K29ED and K58GW? Unless I'm misreading your TV Fool chart, you should get those DTV channels quite well with decent rabbit ears unless your specific location is a bit unusual.

Some quirks in the TV Fool data: while you can't get meaningful reception on the major Seattle channels, TV Fool hints that if you had a strong rooftop antenna pointed northward, you might pull in some Vancouver OTA channels (CBUT, CHAN,CIVT, CKVU). Reality is that CKVU-DT isn't on the air yet; CIVT's transmitter is truly weak at less than 1kw (not the 75kW claimed by TV Fool), CHAN-DT and CBUT-DT are also much lower power output than shown. Dan would probably know if ANYONE in Everett can reliably receive Canadian DTV stations, though it's definitely conceivable you might receive some analog Canadian OTA channels.

What is being televised on K29ED and K58GW? Unless I'm misreading your TV Fool chart, you should get those DTV channels quite well with decent rabbit ears unless your specific location is a bit unusual.

Some quirks in the TV Fool data: while you can't get meaningful reception on the major Seattle channels, TV Fool hints that if you had a strong rooftop antenna pointed northward, you might pull in some Vancouver OTA channels (CBUT, CHAN,CIVT, CKVU). Reality is that CKVU-DT isn't on the air yet; CIVT's transmitter is truly weak at less than 1kw (not the 75kW claimed by TV Fool), CHAN-DT and CBUT-DT are also much lower power output than shown. Dan would probably know if ANYONE in Everett can reliably receive Canadian DTV stations, though it's definitely conceivable you might receive some analog Canadian OTA channels.

seatacboy

K29ED is a very low power directional repeater on ch29, both analog and digital for ch22 KTZZ, located a few miles NE of Everett.
K58BW is a very low power ch43 digital and 58 analog repeater, again same place NE of Everett for KIRO ch7.
Theoretically, if you swing an antenna in that direction, you might pickup those stations. I've never seen it come up any scans, it might not be powered for ch43. I'm pretty sure that the analog repeater works. There are a number of KIRO repeaters around the area
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIRO-TV#Translators
Some alive, some dead.
Ch13 has some as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCPQ#Repeaters
Again, I haven't seen any of these on scans, but then I'm always looking towards Seattle or Bremerton on installs.

I've not seen the Canadian stations anywhere in digital, but haven't looked that much, either. Since Everett is much farther and lower than the tests I did on Camano Island, chances don't look good for them. Again, though, I've never checked for them from Everett.

My acid test for these antenna sites is any address on West Lake Sammamish Parkway, about midway between Issaquh and Redmond. Also 3530 SW 172nd, Burien. Both are impossible for main Seattle channels. Yet they show up as good with an average antenna. Looking at a map they seem okay. If you live there, you know you're at the base of a cliff hundreds of feet high, with Seattle on the other side.

If anyone out there is getting anything from these translator/repeaters, pipe up. Would love to know which ones are alive for HD.

Dan

My acid test for these antenna sites is any address on West Lake Sammamish Parkway, about midway between Issaquh and Redmond. Also 3530 SW 172nd, Burien. Both are impossible for main Seattle channels. Yet they show up as good with an average antenna. Looking at a map they seem okay. If you live there, you know you're at the base of a cliff hundreds of feet high, with Seattle on the other side.

If anyone out there is getting anything from these translator/repeaters, pipe up. Would love to know which ones are alive for HD.Dan TV Fool's listings future DTV assignments, stations not actually broadcasting now. Antennaweb's predicted reception might be slightly more credible, but both sites are just educated guesses. Free information but not necessarily 100% accurate.

TV Fool lists any translator CPs that are in the FCC database, even if such translators are not yet operational.

As far as accuracy is concerned, in case after case I've found that TV Fool just blows Antenna Web out of the water. Whatever algorithm Antenna Web uses, it's terrible. Where I live, it shows me as receiving one digital station and 5 analogs (one of which isn't operating on the channel listed, and another of which I can't see without turning my antenna). I actually receive all my market's UHF digital stations (except one special case) without issue, which TV Fool correctly shows.

- Trip

TV Fool lists any translator CPs that are in the FCC database, even if such translators are not yet operational.

As far as accuracy is concerned, in case after case I've found that TV Fool just blows Antenna Web out of the water. Whatever algorithm Antenna Web uses, it's terrible. Where I live, it shows me as receiving one digital station and 5 analogs (one of which isn't operating on the channel listed, and another of which I can't see without turning my antenna). I actually receive all my market's UHF digital stations (except one special case) without issue, which TV Fool correctly shows.

- Trip

Antennaweb made some changes several months ago. Previously it was too optimistic, now it is overly pessimistic.

What was physical channel 35, virtual 12.1, is now 35.121.

What was physical channel 35, virtual 12.1, is now 35.121. So are you saying KVOS no longer maps to virtual 12.1?

Except for very rare "blips", I haven't picked up KVOS-DT here but some family members elsewhere in Seattle can pull it in on DT or analog.

I always thought it was odd that KVOS (technically classified as a Seattle DMA station) didn't buy a translator/repeater to cover King and Pierce counties. While KVOS might have needed to give up some syndex programs carried by other Seattle stations, having local OTA presence in King/Pierce counties (via transmitters and cable TV carriage) might have given KVOS a more profitable business model than it currently has as a second-tier station aimed primarily at the Vancouver, B.C. market.

As it stands, KVOS has been reduced to a minor player in the Vancouver, BC media market and northwest Washington. A December 2007 article in the Bellingham Business Journal (http://www.thebellinghambusinessjournal.com/december2007/kvos.php) asked whether KVOS' new buyer, then identified as LK Station Group, might switch to a Spanish-language format.

I'm uncertain if the actual buyer, Newport Television LLC (http://www.newporttv.com/) - the new owners of KVOS (http://www.bellinghamherald.com/businessregistrations/story/443388.html) is the same as LK Station Group.

I think someone who's dyslexic was working at KVOS. If you'll notice, the numbers were probably entered wrong. 121 s/b 12.1, 35 is the physical channel.

No, Clear Channel sold all of its stations except KVOS and KFTY to Newport. LK is a different group entirely.

- Trip

No, Clear Channel sold all of its stations except KVOS and KFTY to Newport. LK is a different group entirely.- Trip Glad to hear LK is a different entity. Apparently, Newport also picked up KVOS - here's Newport's list of stations (http://www.newporttv.com/content/stations.aspx). As a onetime Bellingham resident and (later on) north Seattle resident, I have fond memories of what KVOS once was.

So are you saying KVOS no longer maps to virtual 12.1?

Except for very rare "blips", I haven't picked up KVOS-DT here but some family members elsewhere in Seattle can pull it in on DT or analog.

I always thought it was odd that KVOS (technically classified as a Seattle DMA station) didn't buy a translator/repeater to cover King and Pierce counties. While KVOS might have needed to give up some syndex programs carried by other Seattle stations, having local OTA presence in King/Pierce counties (via transmitters and cable TV carriage) might have given KVOS a more profitable business model than it currently has as a second-tier station aimed primarily at the Vancouver, B.C. market.

As it stands, KVOS has been reduced to a minor player in the Vancouver, BC media market and northwest Washington. A December 2007 article in the Bellingham Business Journal (http://www.thebellinghambusinessjournal.com/december2007/kvos.php) asked whether KVOS' new buyer, then identified as LK Station Group, might switch to a Spanish-language format.

I'm uncertain if the actual buyer, Newport Television LLC (http://www.newporttv.com/) - the new owners of KVOS (http://www.bellinghamherald.com/businessregistrations/story/443388.html) is the same as LK Station Group.

seatacboy
KVOS was low powered and directional because it would interfere with ch's 11 & 13 in the analog over-air world. Same with ch6 from Victoria. Digital doesn't have that problem. Analog Cable gets away with it by reducing the audio carrier and very sharp filtering skirts, among other tricks.
I agree, many moons ago KVOS had lots of great off the wall movies and programs. I was able to get a very fuzzy picture back in the 70's from our beach house in Redondo. For those that know their antenna's, I used a Channel Master 3617, 17ft long monster VHF only, great at ghost rejection.
Amazing, now, when I remember what I was willing to put up with just for some variety, specially movies!
Dan

Hi all,

First time posting, so please be gentle. :rolleyes:

I live in downtown Seattle, 5th ave s and s washington, right at the base of the steep hill going up to harborview. Lots of skyscrapers and hills in the way, and my analog reception has always been crap for the queen anne and capitol hill transmitters (4,5,7,9,11).

I recently bought a Toshiba 32AV500 32" LCD with ATSC/QAM, hooked up my old rabbit ears from rat shack and was pleasantly surprised to get a handful of DTV channels.

Here's the odd bit: no KCTS (9.1 - 9.5) or KING (5.1) DTV. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Not even a quiver above absolute zero on the signal strength, no matter what location or direction the antenna. I get KIRO (7.1, 7.2), KOMO (4.1), and KSTW(11.1) DTV no problem, which have transmitters in the same locations as the problem channels.

I checked TVFool and confirmed that those channels are well within my "green zone", but then I noticed that ALL of the channels which have no signal strength, including KCTS and KING among others, are above UHF channel 40, whereas all channels below UHF 40 get good signals...?

Is it just my crappy antenna? I'm probably going to invest in a good indoor UHF antenna, but before I do I wanted to make sure there isn't something else that might be causing the problem. Could it be my ATSC tuner? Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Jerry

Hi all,

First time posting, so please be gentle. :rolleyes:

I live in downtown Seattle, 5th ave s and s washington, right at the base of the steep hill going up to harborview. Lots of skyscrapers and hills in the way, and my analog reception has always been crap for the queen anne and capitol hill transmitters (4,5,7,9,11).

I recently bought a Toshiba 32AV500 32" LCD with ATSC/QAM, hooked up my old rabbit ears from rat shack and was pleasantly surprised to get a handful of DTV channels.

Here's the odd bit: no KCTS (9.1 - 9.5) or KING (5.1) DTV. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Not even a quiver above absolute zero on the signal strength, no matter what location or direction the antenna. I get KIRO (7.1, 7.2), KOMO (4.1), and KSTW(11.1) DTV no problem, which have transmitters in the same locations as the problem channels.

I checked TVFool and confirmed that those channels are well within my "green zone", but then I noticed that ALL of the channels which have no signal strength, including KCTS and KING among others, are above UHF channel 40, whereas all channels below UHF 40 get good signals...?

Is it just my crappy antenna? I'm probably going to invest in a good indoor UHF antenna, but before I do I wanted to make sure there isn't something else that might be causing the problem. Could it be my ATSC tuner? Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Jerry

I would definitely suspect the rabbit ears antenna. A Silver Sensor would be a better choice for an indoor antenna and some of the smaller antennas designed for outdoor installation would probably do the job. I have problems picking up KOMO here and was experimenting with a Winegard 4 bow-tie array in the house to see if I could find a hot spot and got a very good picture but that one is a bit large. I also tried a Philips MANT940, which is much smaller and it worked quite well.

Since the frequencies for most of the digital stations are different than for analog (and the multipath effects are different), it is hard to generalize, but I suspect that you would see an improvement with a different antenna.

Since the frequencies for most of the digital stations are different than for analog (and the multipath effects are different), it is hard to generalize, but I suspect that you would see an improvement with a different antenna.

You're probably right, but it just seems strange that I have no problem getting channels that have transmitters in the same locations (and I forgot to mention I get good signal strength for 22.1 DTV which I believe is also the capitol hill location, and which is also below UHF 40) as the channels that never flicker above zero signal strength. If it was just the antenna, or even my location, wouldn't there be at least SOME signal?

I also like the Silver Sensor, but I noticed it is highly directional (makes sense, it looks like a yagi) which in my location would mean a lot of fiddling to point it in the right direction as I change channels. It also bothers me that some stations are going to change to VHF after the switchover in Feb. which would create a problem for the UHF only antennas.

Can anyone recommend a good omnidirectional indoor UHF/VHF combo antenna? I live on the top floor of a five floor apartment building, so an outdoor antenna is not really an option. Anything on the roof would probably get vandalized, and anything in my (west facing) window would advertise "goodies inside" to the local crackheads.

Cheers,
Jerry

Hello? Is this thread dead? Or am I asking the wrong questions? :confused:

Cheers,
Jerry

Hello? Is this thread dead? Or am I asking the wrong questions? :confused:

Cheers,
Jerry

Have you considered a DB4? http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html

Sounds funny but I am using one in a basement apt on Lake City Way with a preamp and it works great! I have it set up as an indoor antenna even though its an outside unit.

... hooked up my old rabbit ears from rat shack and was pleasantly surprised to get a handful of DTV channels.



Do you have the little bow-tie antenna that clips onto the rabbit ears? The bow-tie is designed for the UHF frequencies that the DTV channels are on. I think they're about 5 bucks at radio shack, but you'll need the balun that has the separate terminals for VHF (rabbit ears) and UHF (bow-tie).

I suspect that you're going to need to move the antenna around (at least swivel it) in order to get all the channels, mostly because you're going to have to find a "sweet spot" where you null out a lot of the reflected signals. Omnidirectional antennae don't play well with DTV, because you pick up reflected signals that arrive at the antenna out of phase with the main signal and create confusion for your tuner if not all-out vapor lock. This is especially compounded by being indoors, where you have all sorts of reflecting surfaces around the antenna.

If you find a couple spots where sum total you get all the channels you want, you could always buy a couple antenna setups, place them in the good locations, then tie them back to an A/B switch that feeds your TV. Elegant? No. But given your listed constraints, it may be your only option.

You might try a double bowtie antenna (if you can find one) and place it in the window to see what you get. If you're worried about the crackheads, you could always put a small potted plant behind it to block the view from the street. :)

Do you have the little bow-tie antenna that clips onto the rabbit ears? The bow-tie is designed for the UHF frequencies that the DTV channels are on. I think they're about 5 bucks at radio shack, but you'll need the balun that has the separate terminals for VHF (rabbit ears) and UHF (bow-tie).


Funny you should mention that, I just spent a day reading the "How To Build A UHF Antenna" thread, ran out to Fry's last night to pick up a couple of UHF baluns for a buck apiece (7 bucks at rat shack!), and slapped together a quick and dirty one-bay bowtie.

Results are generally good, but still no KCTS or KING dtv. :confused: I did show improvement on the KBTC channels which are well to the south of me in Tacoma, probably because in that direction the LOS is relatively unobstructed. The odd thing is that 33.1 - 33.4 all completely dropped out, while I was getting watchable signals for all of those with the rabbit ears.

I did another channel scan and the tuner "found" four more dtv signals up in the forties, I'm not sure what or where they are (religious stuff I think) , but the signal is poor and the bowtie has to be in JUST the right place to get a signal lock.


I suspect that you're going to need to move the antenna around (at least swivel it) in order to get all the channels, mostly because you're going to have to find a "sweet spot" where you null out a lot of the reflected signals. Omnidirectional antennae don't play well with DTV, because you pick up reflected signals that arrive at the antenna out of phase with the main signal and create confusion for your tuner if not all-out vapor lock. This is especially compounded by being indoors, where you have all sorts of reflecting surfaces around the antenna.


Well, that's the really important question, why is it that two major network transmitters that are only about a mile away from me are showing ZERO signal? Now that I've tried two different antennas, it's starting to look like it's my location. Apparently I need to learn more about what you are calling "vapor lock".

I don't mind moving the antenna around while watching TV, I was doing that with the rabbit ears anyway, but first I need to get a signal!



You might try a double bowtie antenna (if you can find one) and place it in the window to see what you get. If you're worried about the crackheads, you could always put a small potted plant behind it to block the view from the street. :)

That's my next project. :)

FWIW, here's my TV Fool stuff, it locates the 98104 zip about a block north from me:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jerrymcm/Radar-Digital.png

Cheers,
Jerry

Funny you should mention that, I just spent a day reading the "How To Build A UHF Antenna" thread, ran out to Fry's last night to pick up a couple of UHF baluns for a buck apiece (7 bucks at rat shack!), and slapped together a quick and dirty one-bay bowtie.

Results are generally good, but still no KCTS or KING dtv. :confused: I did show improvement on the KBTC channels which are well to the south of me in Tacoma, probably because in that direction the LOS is relatively unobstructed. The odd thing is that 33.1 - 33.4 all completely dropped out, while I was getting watchable signals for all of those with the rabbit ears.

You might be getting way too MUCH signal for KCTS or KING, which overloads the tuner. The rabbit ears aren't as sensitive to UHF as the bowtie, which means you get just enough signal to get lock on them. The bowtie might be giving you too much... IIRC, (DanKurts, help me out) even a different channel getting too much signal could cause the tuner to pad the input and wipe out channels that are much lower in signal.

You might try getting a variable attenuator (about 10 bucks at radio shack) and/or 2 or 3 in-line f-connectored 3dB pads to lower the signal level in increments until you get a lock (turn dial, wait 4-5 seconds, turn dial, wait, etc... or put pad in, check, put another pad in, check, etc).

Its goofy, I know. I can see all the Seattle towers from my roof. I spent 2 or 300 bucks messing with this stuff, different antennae, different mounting locations, combiners, splitters, pads, jointenna, etc. and still couldn't get all the channels at the same time. Once it no longer became fun messing around with it, I just got Comcrap, with OTA as backup for a couple channels.

You might be getting way too MUCH signal for KCTS or KING, which overloads the tuner.

That's strange, it never would have occured to me that too much signal is the problem..., how weird. KCTS and KING always had some of the worst reception and the heaviest ghosting on analog, which would seem to argue for the multipath problem.

I ran across this oddity while looking for antenna info:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/Web%20bill%20page%202.htm

Not sure if a waveguide antenna would help my situation, I don't really have unobstructed LOS to any of the transmitters, and a big metal garbage can in my small apt won't fly, still it's a cool idea.


Its goofy, I know. I can see all the Seattle towers from my roof. I spent 2 or 300 bucks messing with this stuff, different antennae, different mounting locations, combiners, splitters, pads, jointenna, etc. and still couldn't get all the channels at the same time. Once it no longer became fun messing around with it, I just got Comcrap, with OTA as backup for a couple channels.

Wow, what a PITA. So far I'm only out the two bucks for the baluns, and I have enough spare parts on hand to try the 2-bay bowtie with reflector, but if that doesn't work I probably won't go any further.

I flat out refuse to pay for cable or sat, I never have and I'm sure not going to start now. It's mostly crap anyway. :rolleyes: I mainly bought the new TV because watching DVD's was almost impossible with the postage stamp size letter-boxes on my ancient 20" tube TV.

Cheers,
Jerry

You're probably right, but it just seems strange that I have no problem getting channels that have transmitters in the same locations (and I forgot to mention I get good signal strength for 22.1 DTV which I believe is also the capitol hill location, and which is also below UHF 40) as the channels that never flicker above zero signal strength. If it was just the antenna, or even my location, wouldn't there be at least SOME signal?

I also like the Silver Sensor, but I noticed it is highly directional (makes sense, it looks like a yagi) which in my location would mean a lot of fiddling to point it in the right direction as I change channels. It also bothers me that some stations are going to change to VHF after the switchover in Feb. which would create a problem for the UHF only antennas.

Can anyone recommend a good omnidirectional indoor UHF/VHF combo antenna? I live on the top floor of a five floor apartment building, so an outdoor antenna is not really an option. Anything on the roof would probably get vandalized, and anything in my (west facing) window would advertise "goodies inside" to the local crackheads.

Cheers,
Jerry

Jerry
Your problem is common downtown. The towers are all so close signal is very strong. That, in turn, means you get lots of signals bouncing around inside your room. It all effects channel reception differently, depending on location. Being on the bad side of the hill doesn't help, either. One floor up or down from you, a neighbor might have problems with 4 or 7, and get 5 & 9 fine.
As others mentioned, omni is not what you want. The DB4 or Silver Sensor are better at rejecting some of the bounces. That keeps signals it does get to the main one. To illustrate, imagine trying to pick out the voice of one person at a ballpark 20 feet away when everyone is talking. With all the noise, and echoes making it worse, it's really tough. If you put on an amplified earphone, it simply makes everything louder. However, if you were to use a long tube, close off one ear and listen through the tube with the other, it might not be perfect, but would definitely help.
Either of these antennas would do the same. DO NOT use an amplifier. As for the "big change" next year, I would bet they would still do pretty well for where you are. Because they aren't transmitting HD on those frequencies now, we won't really know what will work till then.
Don't be surprised if you still can't get ch5. Some areas are just plain ugly. I have some very wealthy customers downtown, cost no object, and tried all manner of wierd things, with no success on some channels.
One that will help. Do not move the antenna around quickly and expect to see instant results on the strength indicator or have the channel lock in. It takes 5 to 10 seconds sometimes for the decoders to work. Move it a little, back away so your body is not reflecting or adding signal, wait, then move it again. Patience is the key. Putting it on or near the window will normally make it better, too.
Let us know what you end up with.
Dan

That's strange, it never would have occured to me that too much signal is the problem..., how weird. KCTS and KING always had some of the worst reception and the heaviest ghosting on analog, which would seem to argue for the multipath problem.

I ran across this oddity while looking for antenna info:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/Web%20bill%20page%202.htm

Not sure if a waveguide antenna would help my situation, I don't really have unobstructed LOS to any of the transmitters, and a big metal garbage can in my small apt won't fly, still it's a cool idea.



Wow, what a PITA. So far I'm only out the two bucks for the baluns, and I have enough spare parts on hand to try the 2-bay bowtie with reflector, but if that doesn't work I probably won't go any further.

I flat out refuse to pay for cable or sat, I never have and I'm sure not going to start now. It's mostly crap anyway. :rolleyes: I mainly bought the new TV because watching DVD's was almost impossible with the postage stamp size letter-boxes on my ancient 20" tube TV.

Cheers,
Jerry


Jerry
Wow! I love the garbage can.
His waveshape looks good, can't argue with results. I'll have to try the garbage can one of these days.
Reminds me of the guys down in the Bay area, years ago around San Jose, I think, that used a Pringles can with a mini yagi to transmit/receive WiFI signals miles away. A friend tried it and it worked pretty well.
Dan

The DB4 or Silver Sensor are better at rejecting some of the bounces. That keeps signals it does get to the main one. To illustrate, imagine trying to pick out the voice of one person at a ballpark 20 feet away when everyone is talking. With all the noise, and echoes making it worse, it's really tough. If you put on an amplified earphone, it simply makes everything louder. However, if you were to use a long tube, close off one ear and listen through the tube with the other, it might not be perfect, but would definitely help.
Either of these antennas would do the same. DO NOT use an amplifier.


Thanks Dan,

Will a reflector do the same thing? I was going to noodle around with a DIY 2-bay bowtie with reflector (like the DB2), but if that won't help with the multipath then I won't bother.

Cheers,
Jerry

Jerry
Wow! I love the garbage can.
His waveshape looks good, can't argue with results. I'll have to try the garbage can one of these days.
Reminds me of the guys down in the Bay area, years ago around San Jose, I think, that used a Pringles can with a mini yagi to transmit/receive WiFI signals miles away. A friend tried it and it worked pretty well.
Dan

Pretty cool, huh? If you do a google on "waveguide antenna" there are tons of results for WiFi contraptions made from tin cans, AKA "cantennas".

Hmmmm..., before I jump into the DIY DB2 maybe I'll noodle around with the 1-bay bowtie and some creative use of aluminum foil...

Cheers,
Jerry

Thanks Dan,

Will a reflector do the same thing? I was going to noodle around with a DIY 2-bay bowtie with reflector (like the DB2), but if that won't help with the multipath then I won't bother.

Cheers,
Jerry

Jerry
Just use the DB2. Simple & EZ.
Believe it or else, there is some science to the exact measurements it uses. Nothing super criticle, but the two bow ties lengths and distances between are important. DB2 is only $15 or $20. I think Rat Shack makes a similar model. Try Fry's in Renton. They may have it, or one like it. If you don't see it, ask several different employees. Several times I've tried to find a whizbang something I thought sure they would have, only to be told they don't have one. I wandered around the store and sure enough found one, or another employee that knew exactly what I needed and found it.
In any case, the bow tie style has the best rejection for your needs. It's also not too big, and won't overload the TV's tuner.
You won't be able to do much about the multipath there, but this should get you close enough, and with some patience, might just do it. You most likely won't find one spot for everything, but one should get you 4-5-7-16 from QA hill, 9-11-22 another spot, and ch13 a third. If you take your time and do each channel separately, you'll learn which ones are fussy, and which aren't. That will allow you to concentrate on the tough ones, and still know the others will be okay. Try to always stand behind it, and hold it away from you as much as possible.
Once you find the good locations, you can enjoy some great HD programs and it will worth all the hassle.
Dan

Just use the DB2. Simple & EZ.
Believe it or else, there is some science to the exact measurements it uses. Nothing super criticle, but the two bow ties lengths and distances between are important. DB2 is only $15 or $20. I think Rat Shack makes a similar model. Try Fry's in Renton. They may have it, or one like it.

In any case, the bow tie style has the best rejection for your needs. It's also not too big, and won't overload the TV's tuner.


DB2's are running about $40, even at Fry's.

I'm starting to wonder if you bothered to read any of my other comments up-thread, but I've been studying the "How To Build A UHF Antenna" thread and I have a pretty good handle on how to build a DIY DB2. I understand the measurements, including the reflector, and why they are important in relation to the signal wavelengths.

In fact, my very first DIY 1-bay bowtie (complete with a balun from Fry's) has been working like a charm, except of course for the problem channels.

Tonight I mounted it inside an oblong cardboard box and taped some aluminum foil on the inside, but only on the panel behind the bowtie so it would act as a reflector. Results were very good, a noticable improvement in signal locks across several dtv channels.

I then tried wrapping foil around the outside of the box, but that only seemed to make things worse, so the "cantenna" concept probably won't improve my situation.

Still no signal on KCTS or KING dtv channels. :(


Once you find the good locations, you can enjoy some great HD programs and it will worth all the hassle.


Well, that's the good news, I'm already enjoying a fair number of dtv channels , it's only two or three out of a dozen or so that are giving me problems. That being said, I'm actually a bit surprised how little HD programming there is on the digital channels, which as you may know are two different things.

Cheers,
Jerry

Well Folks,

The DIY DB2 is a spectacular success. :D

I am now getting great signals across ALL of the dtv channels INCLUDING KCTS AND KING! And all for the low price of one buck for a balun from Fry's.

I used 10" elements and 9 1/2" spacing between bays to optimize for the lower frequencies and now even the VHF channels look good. The reflector really is the critical factor, right now I'm just using an aluminum sheet pan, I'll soon replace it with some 1/2" wire mesh I have laying around, but without the reflector I get a very weak signal (still better than no signal at all!) and no signal lock for KCTS and KING dtv.

Thanks to all who took the time to reply to my noob questions. :) If anyone wants to see my DIY project, I don't have a camera, but I'll be happy to post a sketch or schematic.

Cheers,
Jerry

Can anyone recommend a good omnidirectional indoor UHF/VHF combo antenna? I live on the top floor of a five floor apartment building, so an outdoor antenna is not really an option. Anything on the roof would probably get vandalized, and anything in my (west facing) window would advertise "goodies inside" to the local crackheads. Jerry: check out this Indoor Antenna Review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779) thread. Sounds like the DIY DB2 is really the way to go - I'll have to try it myself!

Hey, I have a bunch of rabbit ear antennas which I've tried with marginal success. Later this summer, a couple of my neighbors may make arrangements to put up a rooftop antenna on our condo.

After so many tests including the Silver Sensor, the most adequate indoor antenna for me (in a suburban ground-floor condo east of the airport) has been a Philips MANT510, but this is an amplified antenna which might not work well downtown.

I am having a digital reception problem down south of Tacoma. I have a new Apex Digital Converter Box box and a new outskirts (purple rated) antenna. With the new antenna I can now get clearly analog 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 20, 22, 28, 33. Digital I get only 13 and above with subs. Digitally 4.1 and 5.1 show up as stations, but no signal.

I have imported TV fool to Google Earth, and found the digital stations that I do not get either deep blue or purple. Analog everything is in the blue - green or better. I know that I can improve the coax run from the antenna, which should help some.

Q1 - Will the digital signal get better as transition approaches? - So that maybe the channels will get better without my intervention?

Q2 - I am at about 350 ft above sea level (according to topo map on Google Earth) There is a ridge not too far that runs about 380 ft (ASL) North / South, but it may be in the way of the signal, as I am only 17 ft up from that 350 with my antenna. It is 6ft above my roof, and stable there, if I have to go up, I would need help on the install.

Any suggestions?

I am having a digital reception problem down south of Tacoma. I have a new Apex Digital Converter Box box and a new outskirts (purple rated) antenna. With the new antenna I can now get clearly analog 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 20, 22, 28, 33. Digital I get only 13 and above with subs. Digitally 4.1 and 5.1 show up as stations, but no signal.

I have imported TV fool to Google Earth, and found the digital stations that I do not get either deep blue or purple. Analog everything is in the blue - green or better. I know that I can improve the coax run from the antenna, which should help some.

Q1 - Will the digital signal get better as transition approaches? - So that maybe the channels will get better without my intervention?

Q2 - I am at about 350 ft above sea level (according to topo map on Google Earth) There is a ridge not too far that runs about 380 ft (ASL) North / South, but it may be in the way of the signal, as I am only 17 ft up from that 350 with my antenna. It is 6ft above my roof, and stable there, if I have to go up, I would need help on the install.

Any suggestions?

WG
Depends on where you are. Send cross streets.
The area can be really tough. The trees are in your way all the way to 38th street. What antenna did you get?
The transmitted power is not going to change, but the slight change in location may have a very small effect. Could be good or bad. Ch's 9-11-13 will change frequency, again could be good or bad. No way to tell until they do it.
Dan

Is anyone having issues with KCTS (Ch 9) reception recently?
My Samsung SIR-T151 receiver reports 'No signal' since the weekend (but shows the channel name correctly). All other channels (inc 7 from the same transmitter) are stable.
Have KCTS changed anything, or have squirrels been climbing on my delicately balanced attic antenna again?
Thanks
Kevin

DanKurts,

Thank you so much for your reply.

C and 123rd

Antenna - From Lowes - Philips SDV7700K/17 - I hope that I can make it work, it was not cheep.

Any word if Seafair will be in HD this year?

Is KTBW-DT (TBN affiliate, real ch. 14, virtual ch. 20) having transmitter problems or off the air?

I rarely watch TBN or its subchannels ("Church Channel", "JCTV" etc) but recently have observed a "no signal" message on KTBW when channel surfing. On my Zenith DTT900 CECB, recent checks of signal strength have indicated "zero signal" for KTBW, in the past I've received adequate to good signal strength - it's a strong signal at my Seatac location. Their transmitter is at Gold Mountain near Bremerton.

Is anyone having issues with KCTS (Ch 9) reception recently? Same question here.

Regarding KCTS digital reception, my new DTVPal CECB DTV converter box will not tune it in, even using the same antenna connection as my other HD tuners in TVs and HD DirecTV TiVo units which all tune in KCTS-DT and -HD just fine. I also have an Insignia (BestBuy) CECB that tunes in ch 9-5 just fine.

Right now I am sitting in my RV in Eglon (near Hansville, north of Kingston) and KCTS-HD channel 9-5 comes in fine OTA on my HD tuner.

DanKurts,

Thank you so much for your reply.

C and 123rd

Antenna - From Lowes - Philips SDV7700K/17 - I hope that I can make it work, it was not cheep.

WG
You're in a bit of a valley, with about 4 miles of trees, buildings, etc in the way. Not sure what Loews carries, but guess it's a combo UHF/VHF small one.
Also not familiar with Phillips products, can't comment on their capabilities. I would assume you are weak on signal, so the first thing to try would be a preamp. Since some channels are switching over to VHF next February, try a Channel Master 7777 preamp. The main direction for Seattle is just a little east of North. Your C street is basically North-South. Trying to get ch13 will mean you have to twist the antenna a little more West. Somewhere in there you should be able to get the main channels. The height above your roof sounds fine. You would need to go up 50ft or more to clear all the trees, not practical.
Dan

WG
You're in a bit of a valley, with about 4 miles of trees, buildings, etc in the way. Not sure what Loews carries, but guess it's a combo UHF/VHF small one.
Also not familiar with Phillips products, can't comment on their capabilities.
- Not sure what is large or small, VHF elements max out at 50 inches, with 51 elements. Info here:

www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_language_us/_productid_SDV7700K_17_US_CONSUMER


http://www.consumer.philips.com/catalog/SD/SDV7700K_17_webImage370.jpg

The longest range reception
For analog and digital TV
Receive signals from up to 140 miles away.Tune in channels 2 through 69, plus FM.Maximum range: VHF/140 miles, UHF/80 miles, FM/120 miles. Includes mast and wall mount kit.


I would assume you are weak on signal, so the first thing to try would be a preamp. Since some channels are switching over to VHF next February, try a Channel Master 7777 preamp.


I do have a cheep in line amp from RS, but closer to TV than the Antenna. Looks like I need to move it up to the antenna.


The main direction for Seattle is just a little east of North. Your C street is basically North-South. Trying to get ch13 will mean you have to twist the antenna a little more West. Somewhere in there you should be able to get the main channels. The height above your roof sounds fine. You would need to go up 50ft or more to clear all the trees, not practical.
Dan

Looks like I will need to tweak the aim a bit to see if I can nail the lower # channels. Not too worried about 13 and up - they come in fine now. and have decent signal strength showing on the maps.

Thanks again Dan for your response.

- WG

Is KTBW-DT (TBN affiliate, real ch. 14, virtual ch. 20) having transmitter problems or off the air?

I rarely watch TBN or its subchannels ("Church Channel", "JCTV" etc) but recently have observed a "no signal" message on KTBW when channel surfing. On my Zenith DTT900 CECB, recent checks of signal strength have indicated "zero signal" for KTBW, in the past I've received adequate to good signal strength - it's a strong signal at my Seatac location. Their transmitter is at Gold Mountain near Bremerton.

Seatacboy;
I have kids and they watch "smile of a child", Ch 20.5, all the time. It's been one of the biggest benefits for us since going digital.
We noticed Ch 20 was occasionally going off the air for random lengths of time. However, this latest stretch has lasted several days. Maybe their engineers have taken the week off for the holiday. Hopefully, it will come back, we miss it.

Seatacboy;
I have kids and they watch "smile of a child", Ch 20.5, all the time. It's been one of the biggest benefits for us since going digital.
We noticed Ch 20 was occasionally going off the air for random lengths of time. However, this latest stretch has lasted several days. Maybe their engineers have taken the week off for the holiday. Hopefully, it will come back, we miss it. Thanks for the update. One of the things I have watched on KTBW is their regular series of full-length vintage Hollywood films on historical Bible themes ("The Ten Commandments", "The Robe", etc). These films are great cinema in their own right, and are shown complete and with zero commercial interruptions.

Oddly, watching their analog 20 feed via Comcast or via NTSC OTA reception, I've noticed KTBW-TV's (analog) audio was much better than KTBW-DT 20.1, where the audio is distinctly out-of-phase and echo-ey (kind of like an "electronically re-channeled for stereo" phonograph record).

KTBW has a very ambitious set of five ATSC subchannels, at times PQ and audio has suffered from having to share bandwith so much. Hopefully the technical problems will be worked out.

- Not sure what is large or small, VHF elements max out at 50 inches, with 51 elements. Info here:

www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_language_us/_productid_SDV7700K_17_US_CONSUMER


http://www.consumer.philips.com/catalog/SD/SDV7700K_17_webImage370.jpg

The longest range reception
For analog and digital TV
Receive signals from up to 140 miles away.Tune in channels 2 through 69, plus FM.Maximum range: VHF/140 miles, UHF/80 miles, FM/120 miles. Includes mast and wall mount kit.



I do have a cheep in line amp from RS, but closer to TV than the Antenna. Looks like I need to move it up to the antenna.



Looks like I will need to tweak the aim a bit to see if I can nail the lower # channels. Not too worried about 13 and up - they come in fine now. and have decent signal strength showing on the maps.

Thanks again Dan for your response.

- WG

WG
Antenna looks like an old style Winegard. It's decent for analog. Never used one for HD. Wasn't aware they still made those. A 7777 preamp will make a big difference with that. The Rat Shack amp may not work very well. Aiming from where you are isn't that critical. Start pointing north, and then slooooowly move the antenna while writing down the best numbers on your channel strength indicator, for each channel. You will probably find some aren't so fussy, others will be. It will help you figure out which ones are toughest.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

Dan -
It will be awhile before I get to test all that. House was invaded - smash and grab. Running problem in the area. Lots of glass to clean up - insurance and contractors ....

- WG

Has something happened in Seattle with HD signal. I am having a tough time getting 4.1 and now 5.1 even through 30 days ago it was coming in great...

Antenna looks like an old style Winegard. It's decent for analog. Never used one for HD.There is no difference between an antenna used for analog and digital. The only issue would be if your local area will have all UHF, or a mix of UHF & VHF stations, after the Feburary 2009 analog cutoff.

The antenna above is a long range VHF / UHF yagi. It has a proven design that is still widely used, and would be highly recommended for many Digital TV reception applications, assuming you have the room (outdoors or attic) and if properly set up. A preamp could be of use for distant stations, and a rotor could also be of use if stations are located in different directions.

In some cases, a dedicated UHF antenna could produce better resuts; YMMV.

Has something happened in Seattle with HD signal. I am having a tough time getting 4.1 and now 5.1 even through 30 days ago it was coming in great...

Merged into correct local topic.

All of the sudden, I am able to receive KVOS-DT at my home in Renton, using a Winegard 4221 and a DTVPal CECB digital to analog converter box.

I simply scanned for channels in the Wizard setup mode and I get all of the nearby channels plus this Bellingham (Mt. Constitution on Orcas Island) digital station.

The reception is clear for 20 minutes or so and then breaks up for a few minutes and then solid again.

I was never able to get analog KVOS channel 12 in watchable quality.

Has something happened in Seattle with HD signal. I am having a tough time getting 4.1 and now 5.1 even through 30 days ago it was coming in great...

Could be the weather. Whenever it gets warm, sunny and clear outside I have a tough time with 5.1. I think it's just because I pick up more noise during nice weather. I never have a problem during the winter months or when it's overcast or raining outside.

There is no difference between an antenna used for analog and digital. The only issue would be if your local area will have all UHF, or a mix of UHF & VHF stations, after the Feburary 2009 analog cutoff.

The antenna above is a long range VHF / UHF yagi. It has a proven design that is still widely used, and would be highly recommended for many Digital TV reception applications, assuming you have the room (outdoors or attic) and if properly set up. A preamp could be of use for distant stations, and a rotor could also be of use if stations are located in different directions.

In some cases, a dedicated UHF antenna could produce better resuts; YMMV.

Ken H
Agree, an antenna can be used for analog or digital. The same antenna can, however, give widely varying results between digital or analog, among other things. That's why comparisons to how well an analog station comes in on a particular antenna or location doesn't always correlate to how well it will do for HD.
Around the greater Puget Sound area, the antenna WG is using is fairly rare. In the ten years we've had HD here, I've never seen one on a HD survey or connected one to my meter for HD reception capabilites. I have replaced them decades ago on analog installs, usually with Channel Master Crossfire's, which worked better for ghosting, a big problem around Fir trees and hills.
It's very possible that this antenna will work fine. I've just never had the chance to compare it to anything for HD, so I'm not sure how well it will work in all those trees near WG.
Sorry to hear about your break in, WG. I know it's more than material loss. Take care.
Dan

Regarding KCTS digital reception, my new DTVPal CECB DTV converter box will not tune it in

KCTS was back on my Samsung receiver this morning. No changes at my end.

Kevin

KCTS was back on my Samsung receiver this morning. No changes at my end.

Kevin

I watch KCTS all the time (usually 9.5) and have not noticed any service interruptions. Comes in equally using my Samsung and Insignia receivers.

KCTS was back on my Samsung receiver this morning. No changes at my end.

Kevin

I was gone for the weekend, but I noticed KCTS digital was back on my DTVPal when I returned home yesterday. What is strange here is that KCTS digital worked fine on my other HDTV tuners in TVs and DVRs in the house.

Strange, but true, but why??

WG
Antenna looks like an old style Winegard. It's decent for analog. Never used one for HD. Wasn't aware they still made those. A 7777 preamp will make a big difference with that. The Rat Shack amp may not work very well. Aiming from where you are isn't that critical. Start pointing north, and then slooooowly move the antenna while writing down the best numbers on your channel strength indicator, for each channel. You will probably find some aren't so fussy, others will be. It will help you figure out which ones are toughest.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

Dan speaks the truth, although I can add that my experience is any of the Radio Shack amps are bad news for DTV reception. They all have funky equalization problems, (bandwidth) and amplify noise almost better than signals. If you need an amp because of spilitting signals to several places in the house, go with a good Spaun or at least a Channel Master amp. Also place the amp after the first 1X2 split, or before a 1X4 or 1X6 split. Make sure you terminate all the unused spigots with 75 ohm termination connectors.

Ken H
Agree, an antenna can be used for analog or digital. The same antenna can, however, give widely varying results between digital or analog, among other things. That's why comparisons to how well an analog station comes in on a particular antenna or location doesn't always correlate to how well it will do for HD.
Around the greater Puget Sound area, the antenna WG is using is fairly rare. In the ten years we've had HD here, I've never seen one on a HD survey or connected one to my meter for HD reception capabilites. I have replaced them decades ago on analog installs, usually with Channel Master Crossfire's, which worked better for ghosting, a big problem around Fir trees and hills.
It's very possible that this antenna will work fine. I've just never had the chance to compare it to anything for HD, so I'm not sure how well it will work in all those trees near WG.
Sorry to hear about your break in, WG. I know it's more than material loss. Take care.
Dan

Thanks Dan and Ken and Kelly for the advise. BTW - KOMO 4 has always been the hardest to get in Analog. I do have some work to do concerning the cable drop and replacing the amp. Also I will tweak the position, but need 2 people to pull that off. :)

Concerning HD broadcast vs digital broadcast - does it really matter when using a converter box? - That is what I am using to pull the digital signal to get ready for the conversion. I know this is a HD thread, but it is Digital I
am currently working on.

Lets see so far - new Antenna ($140), new digital box ($20 over the coupon price), replacing coax (in the $50+ range), and new amp($?), and still a gamble if I will get the same stations I can get analog - this Digital TV "upgrade" is a royal pain. :(

- WG

Dan speaks the truth, although I can add that my experience is any of the Radio Shack amps are bad news for DTV reception. They all have funky equalization problems, (bandwidth) and amplify noise almost better than signals. If you need an amp because of spilitting signals to several places in the house, go with a good Spaun or at least a Channel Master amp. Also place the amp after the first 1X2 split, or before a 1X4 or 1X6 split. Make sure you terminate all the unused spigots with 75 ohm termination connectors.

Kelly
Good advice. One point to clarify.
The Channel Master 7777 is a preamp. It has two pieces, the amplifier, usually located as close as possible to the antenna, and a power supply that's left inside, usually near the receiver or tuner. You cannot put a regular splitter in between. It will short out the power supply. After the power supply is fine.
A regular indoor amplifier, which is what you were talking about, can have splits before or after.

Is the new website up yet?
Dan

Hi Dan,

Yes the website is up! Shameless plug: http://www.dtvrules.com.

Indeed I agree that a good quality preamp is okay, but I've seen some installations that struggle receiving some channels because of either noise being amplified, or the amp has poor bandwidth across the UHF band, (especially in the 600 MHz range). I've always suggested that users try not using a preamp or amp first. My experience is the only benefit of an amp is to make up line loss after a split. There is more detail on my blog at the website.

WG, I am no longer with KOMO, but am doing some consulting and DTV transmission system design and construction for a systems integrator out of California. I just haven't figured out how to change my handle on this board.

Hi Dan,

Yes the website is up! Shameless plug: http://www.dtvrules.com.

Indeed I agree that a good quality preamp is okay, but I've seen some installations that struggle receiving some channels because of either noise being amplified, or the amp has poor bandwidth across the UHF band, (especially in the 600 MHz range). I've always suggested that users try not using a preamp or amp first. My experience is the only benefit of an amp is to make up line loss after a split. There is more detail on my blog at the website.

WG, I am no longer with KOMO, but am doing some consulting and DTV transmission system design and construction for a systems integrator out of California. I just haven't figured out how to change my handle on this board.

Kelly
Site looks good.
One thing that will surprise you is how well some tuners handle noise. Normally, anytime I see less than -12 to -15db, and a shaky waveshape, no amount of amplification helps, no matter how good. Under the right conditions, though, I've seen them work with less than -30 and a 20+db Blonder Tongue or 7775. Out in the boondocks, where residual noise is minimal, you can get away with even more amplification. It all depends on a lot of things going right, but it does happen. The newer tuners like the Samsung H260 are very sensitive and selective. It pulls in ch27 from the backside of my 4221, and my Sencore, which reads to -35, doesn't even see any signal! Amazing. Some Direct boxes do well, others don't. Real hit and miss. In town, as long as you're above -12, usually, the 26db gain of the 7775 or 7777 will work fine. Most tuners can't handle more than +20.
I agree, it's always better to start with more antenna than using an amp. Trouble is most customers want the install to have minimal visual impact.
Sokay. I enjoy a good challenge!

I'll check back with you on your site in a week or so.
Dan

Thanks Dan and Ken and Kelly for the advise. BTW - KOMO 4 has always been the hardest to get in Analog. I do have some work to do concerning the cable drop and replacing the amp. Also I will tweak the position, but need 2 people to pull that off. :)

Concerning HD broadcast vs digital broadcast - does it really matter when using a converter box? - That is what I am using to pull the digital signal to get ready for the conversion. I know this is a HD thread, but it is Digital I
am currently working on.

Lets see so far - new Antenna ($140), new digital box ($20 over the coupon price), replacing coax (in the $50+ range), and new amp($?), and still a gamble if I will get the same stations I can get analog - this Digital TV "upgrade" is a royal pain. :(

- WG

WG
Digital broadcast is basically one big channel. It has sub channels, sometimes, but it all comes in as one. If there's HD sub channels in there, fine. But for reception, if you get one sub channel, you get them all or nothing.
This thread is for over the air reception of digital, so it's all the same.
Your coax shouldn't cost $50 unless you're getting it at Rat Shack. Try Home Depot by the foot and a few fittings.
Sadly, not everyone will get every digital channel. Like everything new, it takes a while to work things out. True, it's been out for about ten years, here, but a lot of work has been done and is ongoing. Right now, the best tuners are the HD versions. In time, like everything that gets built in quantities, the cost will come down and improvements will be included. Do what you can afford, now, and when you get a few more bucks, you might try a Samsung H260. By then, it might be even better and cheaper. And it does output standard definition.
Dan

WG, I am no longer with KOMO, but am doing some consulting and DTV transmission system design and construction for a systems integrator out of California. I just haven't figured out how to change my handle on this board.

Good luck with the new venture. Do you know if KOMO is planning to move the UHF antenna to the top of the tower when the transition occurs. It would probably help many of us.

If you figure out how to change your handle, let us know (I'd like to change mine so it is the same as on other forums).

45.4 is now broadcasting again, but it is broadcasting infomercials, 24x7.... WTF.... lame. And it still says "SPORTSMN" on the channel ID... this is lame.

45.4 is now broadcasting again, but it is broadcasting infomercials, 24x7.... WTF.... lame. And it still says "SPORTSMN" on the channel ID... this is lame. Agree. KHCV may not be faring well financially.

IMHO, KHCV should sell their license and transmitter to another station. If KVOS' new owners were reading this, they should buy KHCV so they can have a stronger presence in the Seattle DMA as a viable independent station (as well as retaining the KVOS viewership in the Vancouver and Victoria, BC areas). Keep in mind the KVOS call letters' original meaning was "Voice of Seattle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVOS) - that might actually be a good on-air station brand for a revitalized KVOS franchise.

45.4 is now broadcasting again, but it is broadcasting infomercials, 24x7.... WTF.... lame. And it still says "SPORTSMN" on the channel ID... this is lame.

I noticed they are the only local that I get that the clock is off on, by about 3 minutes.

Good luck with the new venture. Do you know if KOMO is planning to move the UHF antenna to the top of the tower when the transition occurs. It would probably help many of us.

If you figure out how to change your handle, let us know (I'd like to change mine so it is the same as on other forums).

I can't speak for what KOMO is planning now, but when I was there, they were planning on installing a new DTV antenna at the top of the tower replacing the existing VHF antenna post analog turn-off. However, I doubt that will happen by the transition, as it involves a great deal of work and expense with removal of the old antenna. It could be a little while after the transition.

For the past few days, the Electronic Program Guide for KIRO-DT 7.1 and 7.2 has lacked program information. There is a generic "DTV Program" message. Any idea what's up?

For the past few days, the Electronic Program Guide for KIRO-DT 7.1 and 7.2 has lacked program information. There is a generic "DTV Program" message. Any idea what's up?

Yeah, I noticed this as well. I use Titan TV's guide anyways, because my TV doesn't do the Guide function for whatever reason -- it will only tell you what is currently on the channel (?). My converter box for my bedroom TV has the EPG for the next several hours on each channel.

http://www.titantv.com shows it all. :)

Today, KIRO's EPG seems to have program information again. I'm sure someone at KIRO reads this board.:)

KTBW-DT (virtual 20.1 to 20.5, RF 14) seems to still be silent, though KTBW analog still works. What's up?

Not sure what's going on several of the stations.

Here's what I don't get that I used to get

digital 20 KTBW (this is recent)
digital 42 KWDK (this is recent)
analog 45 KHCV (been off air since early December 2007)
digital 45 KHCV (this is recent)

Not that I miss any of these (except for some of the really odd shows they had on America One back when 45-4 carried it)

Just seems to be a rash of DTV outages.

Hi All,

I'm finally making the jump to go solely "OTA" instead of relying on Comcast's Limited Basic for the Clear QAM for DTV/HDTV reception. Verizon is finally deploying FiOS TV services in my area (Late August/September) but with all of the on-going PSIP issues on the Verizon FiOS TV Clear QAM DTV channels nationally... I think I'd rather just save the $13 and change a month and go OTA.

I live in a two-story home in Bothell. My cross streets are Stafford Way and 24th Dr SE. Zip is 98012. I basically have a clear 360 degree view with no real obstructions on the top of roof except maybe one large tall tree about 50 feet away from my home in the SW position, however the foliage is extremely light (mainly the trunk only).

Thanks in advance for any help in antenna selection and the possibility of needing a pre-amp or not!

Cheers,
Kermee

Hi All,

I'm finally making the jump to go solely "OTA" instead of relying on Comcast's Limited Basic for the Clear QAM for DTV/HDTV reception. Verizon is finally deploying FiOS TV services in my area (Late August/September) but with all of the on-going PSIP issues on the Verizon FiOS TV Clear QAM DTV channels nationally... I think I'd rather just save the $13 and change a month and go OTA.

I live in a two-story home in Bothell. My cross streets are Stafford Way and 24th Dr SE. Zip is 98012. I basically have a clear 360 degree view with no real obstructions on the top of roof except maybe one large tall tree about 50 feet away from my home in the SW position, however the foliage is extremely light (mainly the trunk only).

Thanks in advance for any help in antenna selection and the possibility of needing a pre-amp or not!

Cheers,
Kermee

Hi Kermee, and welcome to OTA!

It appears you have a pretty good location for OTA reception with an outdoor antenna. I recommend a medium-gain VHF-UHF outdoor antenna mounted 30' above the ground if possible. I have some brand and installation suggestions on my website: http://wwwdtvrules.com in the blog section. A rotator is nice too, so you can peak for best signals, (possibly a reflection), depending on the station. The KCPQ-DT-Gold Mountain location is a good case for a rotator, along with the stations located on West Tiger Mt.

At that distance, I wouldn't recommend a preamp. This discussion is also in my blog, but I can't emphasize enough to use high-quality coaxial cable from someone other than Radio Shack. The RG6 sold at Lowes or Home Depot is fine. Don't bother with Monster Cable brand. MC is good quality cable, but WAY too expensive. Also make sure you only use splitters rated to 2Ghz. or more, and only use ones for the number of spiggots you'll need to split.

Good luck!

Kelly

KTBW-DT's attorney, Colby M. May of Washington, D.C., filed a Notification of Suspension of Operations (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101252641&formid=910&fac_num=67950) on behalf of KTBW-DT with the FCC effective 06/17/08. The Notification indicates technical reasons for going silent. Under Exhibit 4 are the following remarks: KTBW-DT EXPERIENCED EQUIPMENT PROBLEMS ON JUNE 17, 2008 AND HAS BEEN OPERATING BELOW 80% AUTHORIZED POWER SINCE THAT TIME. TRINITY EXPECTS THE EQUIPMENT TO BE REPAIRED SOON AND KTBW-DT RETURNED TO FULL POWER OPERATION THEREAFTER. IF TRINITY IS UNABLE TO RESTORE KTBW-DT TO FULL POWER OPERATION BY JULY 17, 2008 IT WILL REQUEST SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY TO REMAIN AT REDUCED POWER. This should explain why this station's ATSC signal is silent, though the NTSC channel 20 seems to still be operational.

I currently have an older tv with an even older antenna on the roof. I bought one of these RCA DTA800B1 converters for the switchover. When it does the scan for stations it is coming up with nothing. The worthless booklet that came with the converter suggested a smart antenna and am unsure about buying one til know if it will work.

We are in heavy trees in low foothills located off Burn Road halfway between Arlington and Granite Falls north of Everett. Reception with the roof antenna has always been iffy anyway. I will admit that I am completely clueless about all of this and my dh has left me in charge of 'making sure the tv will work' (as he is as clueless as I am). Please, any suggestions on what I could try?

Thank you much!
Diane

I currently have an older tv with an even older antenna on the roof. I bought one of these RCA DTA800B1 converters for the switchover. When it does the scan for stations it is coming up with nothing. The worthless booklet that came with the converter suggested a smart antenna and am unsure about buying one til know if it will work.

We are in heavy trees in low foothills located off Burn Road halfway between Arlington and Granite Falls north of Everett. Reception with the roof antenna has always been iffy anyway. I will admit that I am completely clueless about all of this and my dh has left me in charge of 'making sure the tv will work' (as he is as clueless as I am). Please, any suggestions on what I could try?Thank you much! Diane Diane: perhaps DanKurts will respond later with more technical background for your location.

The RCA DTA800B-1 might be a bit frustrating for you because it's almost impossible to "key in" a channel unless it comes in during the "channel scan". Digital TV reception characteristics are very finicky compared to (standard) analog TV. With digital TV, it's an "all or nothing" proposition - your receiver either gets enough steady digital data to provide a "perfect" picture, or there's no picture. With digital TV, antennas are drastically more critical to actually receiving a picture than with analog TV.

The RCA DTA800B-1 is part of a product category known as "CECBs", or Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes. These are tuners which allow viewing of standard definition digital television (DTV) on your existing TV. These devices have to meet certain U.S. Government specs and restrictions to be eligible for the $40 coupon program.

Hi All,

I'm finally making the jump to go solely "OTA" instead of relying on Comcast's Limited Basic for the Clear QAM for DTV/HDTV reception. Verizon is finally deploying FiOS TV services in my area (Late August/September) but with all of the on-going PSIP issues on the Verizon FiOS TV Clear QAM DTV channels nationally... I think I'd rather just save the $13 and change a month and go OTA.

I live in a two-story home in Bothell. My cross streets are Stafford Way and 24th Dr SE. Zip is 98012. I basically have a clear 360 degree view with no real obstructions on the top of roof except maybe one large tall tree about 50 feet away from my home in the SW position, however the foliage is extremely light (mainly the trunk only).

Thanks in advance for any help in antenna selection and the possibility of needing a pre-amp or not!

Cheers,
Kermee

Kermee
It's a good area. Once in a while ch13 will be a bit funky, but I think you will be fine. Since they're going to go back to VHF, it may not matter. You don't need to be high, 5ft above your chimney if you use it as a mount, or above your roof if you use a 3ft tripod and 5ft mast. In the analog world, you need to be careful about how far away you are from objects and would normally need to be a bit higher for ghost rejection and other problems, but in the HD world it's not that important. Because ch's 9-11-13 are going back to VHF, their original frequencies, you may need a VHF style antenna. On the other hand, you are in a good area, and close in enough that a bow tie style like the 4221 Channel Master might just do it, even though technically it's not correct. Problem is, none of these channels are transmitting those frequencies now, so we don't really have any way to check out the reception. Using their analog reception as a ballpark guesstimate won't work, been there, done that.
The reason I suggest the 4221 is it's a very wide forgiving antenna. You don't need a rotor. It's not fussy about direction in your good location. You could use a combo antenna VHF/UHF type, but they're a bit more directional. Since everything is almost the same direction from you (the main channels 4-5-7-9-11-13-16-22) it could work fine. Rat Shack used to make one that was about $40, similar to the 15-2152 but smaller. Or just use the 15-2152. It's UHF portion is not quite as strong, but might work okay. No way to tell without trying it. And again, you won't really know about 9-11-13 until February. I highly doubt you'll need an amplifier.
Be sure your mounting solution is good with a combo antenna, as they have a bit more windload.
I'm not familiar with your tuner, so can't comment on it's ability to work with these antennas.
Dan

I currently have an older tv with an even older antenna on the roof. I bought one of these RCA DTA800B1 converters for the switchover. When it does the scan for stations it is coming up with nothing. The worthless booklet that came with the converter suggested a smart antenna and am unsure about buying one til know if it will work.

We are in heavy trees in low foothills located off Burn Road halfway between Arlington and Granite Falls north of Everett. Reception with the roof antenna has always been iffy anyway. I will admit that I am completely clueless about all of this and my dh has left me in charge of 'making sure the tv will work' (as he is as clueless as I am). Please, any suggestions on what I could try?

Thank you much!
Diane

Diane
Send the nearest cross streets to where you live so we can get a better idea of your terrain. Then we can make some suggestions from there.
Dan

Send the nearest cross streets to where you live so we can get a better idea of your terrain. Then we can make some suggestions from there.
Dan

Nearest cross streets would be Burn Road and 150th Street NE outside Arlington.

Diane

hey guys - I have this antenna in my garage that I will never use. It picks up local some local digital signals from inside my garage, but I am really too far north for it to be of any real use to me. I'd give it away, but I added a $5 balun and a short section of mast. It's about the same dimensions as a CM 4221.

If you're interested, PM me and we'll make arrangements for pick-up.

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sd536573bh6.jpg

Send the nearest cross streets to where you live so we can get a better idea of your terrain. Then we can make some suggestions from there.
Dan

Nearest cross streets would be Burn Road and 150th Street NE outside Arlington.

Diane

Diane
You're high on a hilltop, but the TV signals come from the SW, and it appears that the hill rises about 80ft, give or take. I would imagine you also have a lot of trees around in that same direction, which compounds the problem. This could take some work, and may not be successful. Hard to say. I would suggest having someone local do a site survey, and try a few things and/or do some quick testing. That would put it all in perspective and you could decide if it's worth the cost, or go with cable or satellite instead.
Dan

You're high on a hilltop, but the TV signals come from the SW, and it appears that the hill rises about 80ft, give or take. I would imagine you also have a lot of trees around in that same direction, which compounds the problem. This could take some work, and may not be successful. Hard to say. I would suggest having someone local do a site survey, and try a few things and/or do some quick testing. That would put it all in perspective and you could decide if it's worth the cost, or go with cable or satellite instead.
Dan

Yep, trees could definitely be a problem, really can't afford satellite, and cable is not available up here. Wondering what job title would one look for to come out to do the site survey? Do I just check the phone book for an Audio-Visual Consultant? Really appreciate all your help here.

Diane

You're high on a hilltop, but the TV signals come from the SW, and it appears that the hill rises about 80ft, give or take. I would imagine you also have a lot of trees around in that same direction, which compounds the problem. This could take some work, and may not be successful. Hard to say. I would suggest having someone local do a site survey, and try a few things and/or do some quick testing. That would put it all in perspective and you could decide if it's worth the cost, or go with cable or satellite instead.
Dan

Yep, trees could definitely be a problem, really can't afford satellite, and cable is not available up here. Wondering what job title would one look for to come out to do the site survey? Do I just check the phone book for an Audio-Visual Consultant? Really appreciate all your help here.Diane Diane: with a basic rabbit ear indoor antenna placed outside, do you get much analog TV reception? You might let us know which analog stations come in, and whether any of them are particularly strong or particularly weak, and whether ghosting and geometric distortion are severe on some or all channels. For instance, you might get a pretty good picture on KCPQ/13 or KVOS/12 but extremely weak on KING/5 or KOMO/4.

In case you were wondering about Canadian stations, only three DTV stations are operating yet in the Vancouver area. Unlike those stations' analog transmitters which were constructed many years ago (before the 1993 Canada-US Broadcasting Treaty), new Canadian ATSC transmitters are believed to be directed towards the Canadian interior and away from the U.S. border regions. The older Canadian analog stations' transmission patterns - which have quite a bit of "spillover" into northwest Washington - were "grandfathered". The 1993 treaty requires most new Canadian and American stations near the international boundary (an exception being "dual nationality" KVOS) to be directionally engineered to minimize "unauthorized" cross-border reception. As a result, it's not too likely you can pull in digital TV versions of CBC, CTV or Global from Arlington though the analog stations are probably receivable as fringe stations.

I currently have an older tv with an even older antenna on the roof. I bought one of these RCA DTA800B1 converters for the switchover. When it does the scan for stations it is coming up with nothing. The worthless booklet that came with the converter suggested a smart antenna and am unsure about buying one til know if it will work.

We are in heavy trees in low foothills located off Burn Road halfway between Arlington and Granite Falls north of Everett. Reception with the roof antenna has always been iffy anyway. I will admit that I am completely clueless about all of this and my dh has left me in charge of 'making sure the tv will work' (as he is as clueless as I am). Please, any suggestions on what I could try?

Thank you much!
Diane

What does your antenna look like? Do all the arms lay horizontal? Or are there also some in the front, in a V shape, like an open alligator mouth?

If there is no "alligator mouth", you may need to upgrade your antenna before you can get any digital signals.
If there is, make sure the alligator is pointed towards Seattle.
If you still don't pick up anything, try pointing the antenna north, and scanning again to see if you can pick up KVOS.

Since your husband put you in charge, make him get up on the roof to turn the antenna. :)

You're high on a hilltop, but the TV signals come from the SW, and it appears that the hill rises about 80ft, give or take. I would imagine you also have a lot of trees around in that same direction, which compounds the problem. This could take some work, and may not be successful. Hard to say. I would suggest having someone local do a site survey, and try a few things and/or do some quick testing. That would put it all in perspective and you could decide if it's worth the cost, or go with cable or satellite instead.
Dan

Yep, trees could definitely be a problem, really can't afford satellite, and cable is not available up here. Wondering what job title would one look for to come out to do the site survey? Do I just check the phone book for an Audio-Visual Consultant? Really appreciate all your help here.

Diane

Diane
Look under Antenna Installers or Satellite Installers. They both should know the ins/outs of your local reception. DEX online didn't show anyone up there, one guy popped up in Seattle, that doesn't mean much. A lot of people, yours truly included, don't use the book. You could also ask at your local Radio Shack. They usually know a lot of the do it yourselfers, who in turn know the local installers.
If all else comes up empty, I could do one for you, but it would be a while before I can get up that way, slammed with work right now.
Dan

Kelly
Good advice. One point to clarify.
The Channel Master 7777 is a preamp. It has two pieces, the amplifier, usually located as close as possible to the antenna, and a power supply that's left inside, usually near the receiver or tuner. You cannot put a regular splitter in between. It will short out the power supply. After the power supply is fine.
A regular indoor amplifier, which is what you were talking about, can have splits before or after.

Is the new website up yet?
Dan
Dan,
I'm currently trying to do exactly that. I have a system using a 7777 set up for quite some time, and it's working great. But now I want to add another tv, and of course I need to split the line somewhere in the middle. Did I understand this correctly that a voltage blocker is all I need? In that case, where can I get these little pieces locally? Or do I need a special splitter?

Dan,
I'm currently trying to do exactly that. I have a system using a 7777 set up for quite some time, and it's working great. But now I want to add another tv, and of course I need to split the line somewhere in the middle. Did I understand this correctly that a voltage blocker is all I need? In that case, where can I get these little pieces locally? Or do I need a special splitter?

Rico66
You need both splitter and blocker.
Rat Shack has both, last I looked. Blocker looks like an inline fitting, inch or so long. Use a two way splitter that's DC passing, so the voltage will go through, and then put the blocker on the splitter leg without the power supply.
Blocker is there to keep DC power from going back down to the TV without the power supply. Without it, the cable terminating parts in that second TV will short out the preamp power supply.
Dan

What does your antenna look like? Do all the arms lay horizontal? Or are there also some in the front, in a V shape, like an open alligator mouth?

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2108/10389254/18609228/326588181.jpg

Here is photo of our antenna with the big end pointing straight east.

The channels we view seems to have improved since hooking up the converter box even tho it never scanned any channels. Now we get:

Good: Kvos12
Ok, with slight snow: 2 (canada), Komo4, King5, Fox13
Rough snow: 6, Global8, and CityTV10
Bad reception: 7, Kcts9, and 11

Before converter box dh says we got strong 4, 5, and 12; weak 13; and bad 7, 9, and 11.

With rabbit ears indoors we get good 5 and 13 with rest bad.

Don't know if we can do anything with the above info; just trying to keep up. Will try to get dh off his skinny hardworking behind and onto the roof within next couple of evenings to play the 'how about now?' antenna rotation game. :D

Thank you, Diane

Here is photo of our antenna with the big end pointing straight east.


Make your antenna's "open mouth" end point south. Fine tune it so that Channel 5 comes in as clear as possible. Re-scan with your new converter box and see if it picks up channels.
What type of cable do you have running down from the antenna? "Coax" (like what cable TV uses) or "twin lead" (flat, with two wires)?

What does your antenna look like? Do all the arms lay horizontal? Or are there also some in the front, in a V shape, like an open alligator mouth?

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2108/10389254/18609228/326588181.jpg

Here is photo of our antenna with the big end pointing straight east.

The channels we view seems to have improved since hooking up the converter box even tho it never scanned any channels. Now we get:

Good: Kvos12
Ok, with slight snow: 2 (canada), Komo4, King5, Fox13
Rough snow: 6, Global8, and CityTV10
Bad reception: 7, Kcts9, and 11

Before converter box dh says we got strong 4, 5, and 12; weak 13; and bad 7, 9, and 11.

With rabbit ears indoors we get good 5 and 13 with rest bad.

Don't know if we can do anything with the above info; just trying to keep up. Will try to get dh off his skinny hardworking behind and onto the roof within next couple of evenings to play the 'how about now?' antenna rotation game. :D

Thank you, Diane


Diane
Something is not correct. Digital antenna signals don't have snow. Sounds like you don't have something connected correctly, specially since you had better reception before using it. Digital signals are either clear, ghost free and no snow, or nothing. The high definiton channels will downconvert to something your TV can use through the box. If you do get it working right, there should be extra channels. Channel 5 is listed as 5-1 & 5-2, ch7 has 7-1 & 7-2, ch9 has 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 & 9-5 and other channels have more than one sub channel.
The antenna you have is a decent one. The proper direction for Seattle channels for you is with the small end pointing southwest. Obviously you may have to tweak direction a bit, but it shouldn't be too much. That antenna is pretty directional.
Not sure how your tuner works, but some require you to do a scan first. That means you can't watch the picture and adjust antenna. Instead, most digital tuners have some kind of strength indicator. Thing is, you need to have the channel working, somewhat, before it will register. Kind of a chicken & egg thing. What you'll most likely do is adjust the antenna, do a scan, adjust the antenna, do a scan.....
Also, does your TV only have an antenna input, or does it also have a set of jacks on the back that are red, yellow and white? If so, the picture will look a bit better through the jacks.
Dan

I went to TV fool today they have a few seattle channels with more power(1000) than a few months ago is this true?

I have noticed channel 11 dtv since last week, which I never been able to see is working day and night what is going on ?

Did the stations get worried they where going to lose viewer ship?

KING-TV announced they'll be doing a test to simulate "The BIG Digital Changeover" in a day or so, which should be interesting. What it means is they're going to switch off the analog transmitter, but leave on the HD and, in theory, if you already have your over air setup ready, then you won't miss anything, obviously, because you're watching on ch48 HD. And if you have Cable or Satellite, you should still see a picture, ......in theory. Be interesting if their feeds drop off !
Also, you may see a story about what some people are going through and the confusion that still exists.

While sitting on my chubbyness and thinking (always gets me in trouble), a headslapper arrived......
A lot of people can't understand why a simple rabbit ear won't work on their HD/Digital tuner in the middle of the city, or where they've been getting what they call decent analog reception. I would bet that some of these people are the same ones that are WiFi and Bluetooth users. Plug in, turn on, sync up, what's not to like? Nothing wrong with that. Great stuff when it works.
The over air digital TV world is a completely different flavor of reception, obviously. The info broadcast on TV about the changeover, and solutions, makes it all sound simple. But it still doesn't work for many. This simple but distinct point might be why many have a hard time understanding the problem, and in turn the solutions.
Just a thought.......
Dan

KING-TV announced they'll be doing a test to simulate "The BIG Digital Changeover" in a day or so, which should be interesting. What it means is they're going to switch off the analog transmitter, but leave on the HD and, in theory, if you already have your over air setup ready, then you won't miss anything, obviously, because you're watching on ch48 HD. And if you have Cable or Satellite, you should still see a picture, ......in theory. Be interesting if their feeds drop off !
Also, you may see a story about what some people are going through and the confusion that still exists.

I think this is a great! Here are the times for the tests on Chs. 5 and 16:

http://www.king5.com/about/newsreleases/stories/NW_071508NRDTVTEST.5b175861.html

We should know so much more about the impact of this in just 6 weeks, when Wilmington, NC shuts down its analog. (September 8)

KING-TV announced they'll be doing a test to simulate "The BIG Digital Changeover" in a day or so, which should be interesting. What it means is they're going to switch off the analog transmitter, but leave on the HD and, in theory, if you already have your over air setup ready, then you won't miss anything, obviously, because you're watching on ch48 HD. And if you have Cable or Satellite, you should still see a picture, ......in theory. Be interesting if their feeds drop off !
Also, you may see a story about what some people are going through and the confusion that still exists.

While sitting on my chubbyness and thinking (always gets me in trouble), a headslapper arrived......
A lot of people can't understand why a simple rabbit ear won't work on their HD/Digital tuner in the middle of the city, or where they've been getting what they call decent analog reception. I would bet that some of these people are the same ones that are WiFi and Bluetooth users. Plug in, turn on, sync up, what's not to like? Nothing wrong with that. Great stuff when it works.
The over air digital TV world is a completely different flavor of reception, obviously. The info broadcast on TV about the changeover, and solutions, makes it all sound simple. But it still doesn't work for many. This simple but distinct point might be why many have a hard time understanding the problem, and in turn the solutions.
Just a thought.......
Dan

Didn't KCPQ do this today (7/23), or a few days ago?

A lot of people can't understand why a simple rabbit ear won't work on their HD/Digital tuner in the middle of the city, or where they've been getting what they call decent analog reception. I would bet that some of these people are the same ones that are WiFi and Bluetooth users. Plug in, turn on, sync up, what's not to like? Nothing wrong with that. Great stuff when it works.
The over air digital TV world is a completely different flavor of reception, obviously. The info broadcast on TV about the changeover, and solutions, makes it all sound simple. But it still doesn't work for many. This simple but distinct point might be why many have a hard time understanding the problem, and in turn the solutions. Dan, excellent points. Many people are familiar with cell-phone technology, which relies on a large number of local cell towers. Nowadays, cell phone coverage for major carriers around the Greater Seattle area is pretty darned good. You can walk around, you can conduct a conversation while riding as a passenger in a commuter train or bus....you only have occasional "dead spots".

By contrast, ATSC digital TV reception is pitifully inconsistent. In fact, this afternoon I was reminded of this when I went to my condo complex weight room. I thought I'd bring my 1985-vintage Panasonic 5" TV along so I could view the CBS Evening News while peddling an exercise bike. The single rabbit ear pulled in a tolerable picture on KIRO-7 and most other local stations - this being in the basement of a brick-and-mortar cabana, even worse reception spot than my own condo unit. There's no way I'd get any ATSC reception down there, unless it was a strange 2-edge refraction effect.

Something tells me that Comcast is going to pick up a lot of new "limited cable service" subscribers.

Does anyone know if KIRO is transmitting the new TvGuide digital on screen guide data?

Something tells me that Comcast is going to pick up a lot of new "limited cable service" subscribers.

That's what Comcast is hoping for, according to their "public service" type adds. They advertise a basic package at $16 a month.

Last night Q13 Fox ran an analog shut-off test. They will also be running more in the coming months 'til 2/17/09.

Does anyone know if KIRO is transmitting the new TvGuide digital on screen guide data?

Good question. Apparently someone contacted them last March, and they were not transmitting TVGOS yet, but planned to by 2/17/09.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13455334&postcount=11524

So KING 5 shut off the analog signal during the 5pm news yesterday as part of their series of tests. I had a set tuned to their analog 5 and another one tuned to there digital 5-1. The test worked as expected. I got static on my analog 5 and the digital 5-1 worked without a hitch.

KONG 6/16 was scheduled to repeat the test on the 10pm news when they announced that they were going to postpone the test because several customers on cable and satellite were effected by the test as if they were receiving analog 5 over the air. KING 5 didn't mention any cable or satellite providers by name. But this sounds like either some providers are retransmitting the analog signal OR several customers don't know which of their TVs are on cable, satellite or over the air. I'm guessing all of the above.

KONG announced they would repeat the test after they figured out what was going on with the cable and satellite providers.

Does anyone know if KIRO is transmitting the new TvGuide digital on screen guide data?

It is incorrect for their sub-channel. 7-2, RTN's listings are "all over the place"...:mad:

The "Who Knows What's On" channel! :D
McHale's Navy is on, and the guide info says "Love American Style". Further on, the listings for today show Cannon...Hawaii 5-0 is listed... these are not on any more. Come on KIRO, get it together... ;)

It is incorrect for their sub-channel. 7-2, RTN's listings are "all over the place"...:mad:

TVGOS or PSIP EPG listing? Two separate guides, maintained by separate entities. I beleive allen's comment was in reference to TVGOS, which is currently broadcast in analog by PBS, soon to be replaced by a digital broadcast by CBS. PSIP EPG's are digitally broadcast and maintained by each individual station.

hey all - been away for a while. What are the latest recommendations for a tuner that can do both QAM and ATSC? My son has an older set on analog cable and is looking for a cheap solution. He prefers to us QAM/cable since OTA is quite difficult at his location. It appears that Comcast's promise of "if you have cable you're covered" is BS. If you don't have a Comcast box you won't get anything after Feb. This was confirmed by the King5 test recently. He got snow. So cheap QAM tuner?

TIA, quarque

The "Who Knows What's On" channel! :D McHale's Navy is on, and the guide info says "Love American Style". Further on, the listings for today show Cannon...Hawaii 5-0 is listed... these are not on any more. Come on KIRO, get it together... ;) I miss Hawaii Five-O! Overall RTN is terrific, but I find the inaccurate EPG and TVG information frustrating. Also, I noticed that the PI and Times omit the RTN/KIRO 7.2 schedules from their published listings. While I can watch back episodes of Hawaii Five-O online at Fancast, I am going to ask KIRO/RTN: please bring back Hawaii Five-0!

And for that matter: on weekend mornings, why couldn't you provide reruns of KIRO's long-running J.P. Patches show? That is REALLY retro television, and would also underscore that "RTN Northwest" does have some local identity.

hey all - been away for a while. What are the latest recommendations for a tuner that can do both QAM and ATSC? My son has an older set on analog cable and is looking for a cheap solution. He prefers to us QAM/cable since OTA is quite difficult at his location. It appears that Comcast's promise of "if you have cable you're covered" is BS. If you don't have a Comcast box you won't get anything after Feb. This was confirmed by the King5 test recently. He got snow. So cheap QAM tuner?

TIA, quarque

Q13 ran a short test the other night, and they mentioned Comcast by name and said that Comcast was up to speed with their signal. Can't vouch, just taking their word for it since I'm 100% OTA. So, it just may be that Comcast hasn't got everything straight with KING5 yet.

For your son, either get a Samsung DTB-H260F or a DVD recorder that has QAM. Cost about the same, but at least he can record with one. Not much has changed in regards to QAM tuner availability.

It appears that Comcast's promise of "if you have cable you're covered" is BS. If you don't have a Comcast box you won't get anything after Feb. This was confirmed by the King5 test recently. He got snow.This is almost definitely because Comcast rebroadcasts the analog OTA feed of KING, and hasn't yet switched to rebroadcasting a 4x3 center-cut digital version of NBC. This probably won't happen for another few months.

As for a box, the cheapest I know out there is the Samsung DTB-H260F. There might be something cheaper, but I'm not sure. (Note that it doesn't properly center-cut 16x9-broadcast material.)

Q13 ran a short test the other night, and they mentioned Comcast by name and said that Comcast was up to speed with their signal. Can't vouch, just taking their word for it since I'm 100% OTA. So, it just may be that Comcast hasn't got everything straight with KING5 yet.

For your son, either get a Samsung DTB-H260F or a DVD recorder that has QAM. Cost about the same, but at least he can record with one. Not much has changed in regards to QAM tuner availability.

I don't think there is anything to "get straight" except for the public to wise up. Comcast's and other's ads indicate "if you have cable you don't need to do anything." That is a lie if you have an analog NTSC device and are not using/renting a Comcast box for it.

The Sammy box has no QAM so not a good choice. Somebody must be making a cheap QAM tuner by now. I just can't find it! There are all sorts of $50 devices for your PC/laptop using a USB connection.

I don't think there is anything to "get straight" except for the public to wise up. Comcast's and other's ads indicate "if you have cable you don't need to do anything." That is a lie if you have an analog NTSC device and are not using/renting a Comcast box for it.

The Sammy box has no QAM so not a good choice. Somebody must be making a cheap QAM tuner by now. I just can't find it! There are all sorts of $50 devices for your PC/laptop using a USB connection.

The Sammy 260 box DOES have both Cable QAM and OTA 8VSB. What it lacks is anything analog. It also is not very friendly to a 4x3 TV, especially if using S-video or composite video.

I agree with the prior recommendation of a DVD recorder with a built-in digital tuner. Now days they all seem to support both OTA 8VSB and Cable QAM.

Regarding Comcast continuing analog signals, my understanding is they will convert digital broadcasts to analog and deliver the same OTA-equivalent channels in analog form as they do today. So, by next February we should expect Comcast to stop using the analog OTA source and instead use the digital OTA source downconverted to analog.

The satellite companies have a similar issue. They receive many (most?) local channels OTA analog and then convert to digital to feed the satellite uplink. They will also be converting from analog OTA receivers to digital OTA receivers before analog is terminated.

These little tests are actually misleading for cable and satellite customers because those companies have not converted their equipment yet. I am surprised that the station engineers don't realize this. Note that there are some stations delivering over fiber links to satellite and cable. Right now those fiber signals could be analog. For video, fiber is not always digital.

Could this be any more confusing?

Dave - by golly you're right (as usual). The page I looked at on the Sammy listed everything except QAM - so I took it as no QAM.

Per my conversation with the tech, there are no plans to provide analog cable channels after Feb. If you have another reliable source on this I'd love to see it. They want the bandwidth for digital/HD.

I'm going to seriously look at DirecTV because if I have to spend any money or make any changes it won't be lining Comcast's pockets.

BTW, I sent this topic to Get Jesse at King5. I indicated that the public is being seriously mislead by cable companies. All the talk has been about needing CECB's for antennas. NO talk about $8.95/mo for each analog device on cable you have to shell out. I'm expecting massive demonstrations on 2/18/09 like anti-war rallies of the late 60's!

Too many things to chime in on here...

Strange that KING would be affected on Comcast when KING delivers their NTSC signal to Comcast via fibre rather than OTA. That might explain the sudden cancellation of the KONG test scheduled for later in the evening... I can't help but wonder if KING blundered by dropping the signal on their NTSC feed altogether (to both OTA and fibre?)

NBC's feed is not yet "center cut" friendly. The analog NBC feed still shows some widescreen shows letterboxed. That said, I know of a couple of affiliates that are feeding their NTSC translators from their ATSC transmitter. It has the nice side-effect of cutting-out the NBC bug from the corner. :)

For a non-HD QAM-capable tuner, the RJTech ATSC 1000 is great. I've got one that I use every day. (The newer ATSC-900 model is 8VSB-only, though is advertised some places as QAM-capable.) I paid about $70 for one, and I've never tuned analog in my bedroom again.

... I can't help but wonder if KING blundered by dropping the signal on their NTSC feed altogether (to both OTA and fibre?) ...

I think that was the whole point of the test. Drop all NTSC so the only thing available was digital. This is what 2/17/2009 will look like. It was a valid test IMO. If you had a CECB you'd see that it converted digitial program to analog. If you had analog only, you saw snow. If you had a digital ATSC tuner you saw program.

The Sammy 260 box DOES have both Cable QAM and OTA 8VSB. What it lacks is anything analog. It also is not very friendly to a 4x3 TV, especially if using S-video or composite video.

I agree with the prior recommendation of a DVD recorder with a built-in digital tuner. Now days they all seem to support both OTA 8VSB and Cable QAM.

Regarding Comcast continuing analog signals, my understanding is they will convert digital broadcasts to analog and deliver the same OTA-equivalent channels in analog form as they do today. So, by next February we should expect Comcast to stop using the analog OTA source and instead use the digital OTA source downconverted to analog.

The satellite companies have a similar issue. They receive many (most?) local channels OTA analog and then convert to digital to feed the satellite uplink. They will also be converting from analog OTA receivers to digital OTA receivers before analog is terminated.

These little tests are actually misleading for cable and satellite customers because those companies have not converted their equipment yet. I am surprised that the station engineers don't realize this. Note that there are some stations delivering over fiber links to satellite and cable. Right now those fiber signals could be analog. For video, fiber is not always digital.

Could this be any more confusing?

Budget_HT & quarque

The Samsung does have analog out in composite and S-video, as well as audio. It doesn't have a RF out, although there is another f-fitting that looks like it might. If your set doesn't have video/audio jacks, Rat Shack has a cheap RF converter for about $25. The one thing the Samsung doesn't have that's a bit maddening is the setup guide doesn't come up when set to 480i resolution, only works in 720 or 1080. You need to do any setup on a HD set first, then flip the switch on the back. They may have fixed it by now, as mine is over a year old.

I'm not surprised by the failure of the feeds during the test. It's too simple, and the engineers have been talking about it for so long that over confidence in the cutover was bound to create an OOPS!

So where did you go on vacation, quarque?

Dan

Budget_HT & quarque

The Samsung does have analog out in composite and S-video, as well as audio. It doesn't have a RF out, although there is another f-fitting that looks like it might. If your set doesn't have video/audio jacks, Rat Shack has a cheap RF converter for about $25. The one thing the Samsung doesn't have that's a bit maddening is the setup guide doesn't come up when set to 480i resolution, only works in 720 or 1080. You need to do any setup on a HD set first, then flip the switch on the back. They may have fixed it by now, as mine is over a year old.

I'm not surprised by the failure of the feeds during the test. It's too simple, and the engineers have been talking about it for so long that over confidence in the cutover was bound to create an OOPS!

So where did you go on vacation, quarque?

Dan

IIRC, the setup guide, channel number, etc. do display when using the component video output, even in 480i (at least on the unit I tried). Some folks, including me, have used the "green" component output by itself and plugged it into a composite input on a TV to temporarily see the set up menu, etc., albeit in black & white.

I tested and evaluated a Sammy for use by my dad, but his TV lacks component inputs and he refuses to buy another TV, so we returned the Sammy to Best Buy. He could care less about the setup menu but he needs to see the channel numbers when he cruises through them.

I think that was the whole point of the test. Drop all NTSC so the only thing available was digital. This is what 2/17/2009 will look like. It was a valid test IMO. If you had a CECB you'd see that it converted digitial program to analog. If you had analog only, you saw snow. If you had a digital ATSC tuner you saw program.

I guess I was over-thinking things. Sure, OTA dies on 17 Feb 09, but just like LPTV's gonna keep on spittin' out NTSC, and cable's gonna keep on spittin' out NTSC, and my VCR's gonna keep on spittin' out NTSC, I thought someone in as large an organization as Belo might've thought about whether or not the fibre they feed Comcast with was gonna keep on spittin' out NTSC. I guess not! :-)

IIRC, the setup guide, channel number, etc. do display when using the component video output, even in 480i (at least on the unit I tried). Some folks, including me, have used the "green" component output by itself and plugged it into a composite input on a TV to temporarily see the set up menu, etc., albeit in black & white.

That is correct, I use the component inputs with an older Sony Wega and can see the menus.

Regarding Comcast - If they are not going to have an analog signal beyond 2/17/09, doesn't it seem odd they are running "public service" ads advising people to get their $16 a month package? Plus all the other public service ads put out by pretty much every other channel saying you don't have to do anything if you have cable? I'm pretty sure that Comcast is just still using the SDTV feed from KING5 for their analog subscribers, so they may have seen snow when the test was ran. After 2/17/09, maybe Comcast will have to convert the HD feed to SD for the non-digital subscription users.

So KING 5 shut off the analog signal during the 5pm news yesterday as part of their series of tests. I had a set tuned to their analog 5 and another one tuned to there digital 5-1. The test worked as expected. I got static on my analog 5 and the digital 5-1 worked without a hitch.

KONG 6/16 was scheduled to repeat the test on the 10pm news when they announced that they were going to postpone the test because several customers on cable and satellite were effected by the test as if they were receiving analog 5 over the air. KING 5 didn't mention any cable or satellite providers by name. But this sounds like either some providers are retransmitting the analog signal OR several customers don't know which of their TVs are on cable, satellite or over the air. I'm guessing all of the above.

KONG announced they would repeat the test after they figured out what was going on with the cable and satellite providers.

According to http://mstv.org/docs/satschedule0708.pdf, both Dish and Directv will switch their pickup of Seattle SD locals from analog to digital on September 1. Hopefully it will result in improved picture quality (which is currently pretty bad in a few cases).

I guess if you want to see "the Beaver" and Wally... this is the place to go.:confused:

Dave - by golly you're right (as usual). The page I looked at on the Sammy listed everything except QAM - so I took it as no QAM.

Per my conversation with the tech, there are no plans to provide analog cable channels after Feb. If you have another reliable source on this I'd love to see it. They want the bandwidth for digital/HD.

I'm going to seriously look at DirecTV because if I have to spend any money or make any changes it won't be lining Comcast's pockets.

BTW, I sent this topic to Get Jesse at King5. I indicated that the public is being seriously mislead by cable companies. All the talk has been about needing CECB's for antennas. NO talk about $8.95/mo for each analog device on cable you have to shell out. I'm expecting massive demonstrations on 2/18/09 like anti-war rallies of the late 60's! Why don't you invite Jesse from KING5 to check out this forum. If he PM's me, I'd be happy to offer my thoughts.

After months of experimentation - which most OTA users would be unwilling to do - I finally have gotten a Channel Master 4221 clone positioned indoors to where I can (most of the time) receive all 14 Seattle area DTV stations (34 subchannels in all). Dropping Comcast is a possibility, although as a Comcast high-speed internet client I'm likely to keep Limited Cable TV Service due to the multi-product discount. Dropping Comcast is much more likely if a better Internet service option became available in my neighborhood.

Quoting directly from the July/August 2008 "Comcast Northwest" brochure (the statement insert), page 4:Comcast has you covered in the switch to digital broadcast. In February 2009, all broadcast networks are switching over to digital-only broadcasting. If all the TVs in your home are connected to Comcast, relax, you don't have to worry about a thing. If you have an older TV that's not connected to Comcast, no problem. Call us anytime and we'll make sure you're all set.

Yeah, call us anytime and we'll add 1-10 more boxes to your bill. Funny how advertizing always seems to leave out some important fact(s). I have 5 analog devices that are not currently using a box. And I doubt they will give me 5 free boxes.

I see that Comcast has some new ads which appear to masquerade as a PSA recommending switching to cable as the way to handle the digital transition (the same thing which seatacboy quoted).

I haven't tried cable here. When I moved to the area, the local cable was a pretty small-time operation (later bought by ATT -> Comcast), so I went to satellite right away (with OTA as needed). I use Clearwire for internet and Vonage for telephone, so the only wires coming to my house are from PSE (no water, gas or sewer lines either :D).

I am surprised that there has been hardly any mention in all of the TV coverage of the fact that switching to digital now will give you the subchannels and video improvements. People don't have to wait until February to see the difference.

I see that Comcast has some new ads which appear to masquerade as a PSA recommending switching to cable as the way to handle the digital transition (the same thing which seatacboy quoted) Worth noting is that Comcast and other cable industry heavyweights were very influential in lobbying Congress regarding the CECB program. As a result of cable-industry lobbying, the legislation specifically "cripples" Clear QAM capability out of the CECBs. Hindsight being 20/20, the cable industry might have shot itself in the foot since the cablecos are eager to eliminate bandwidth-intensive analog cable service - the government-subsidized CECB program would have been a politically-palatable way to phase out analog cable.

After much fiddling around with a (clone) Channel Master 4221 four-bay antenna placed INDOORS, I now can receive reception on all 14 Seattle-Tacoma ATSC channels (34 subchannels). Reception on some is a bit intermittent - specifically KING-DT 48 - but for the first time, I could drop Comcast entirely. On occasion, I like to watch CBUT (CBC) and the government channels, but on the local broadcast stations, analog Comcast's PQ doesn't measure up to OTA ATSC PQ.

Of course, in February 2009, three of those 14 channels revert to VHF. It's anyone's guess how reception will be affected at my condo.

STB - Glad to hear your new antenna worked out for you. Regarding KING5, for whatever reason that is my most difficult station as well. I'm hoping that after the change in 2009 things will improve.

Curious - You said you get 34 channels (including sub-channels). That's the same total I get when channel 20 is working. Is channel 20 back up? Also, do you get KVOS down there?

STB - Glad to hear your new antenna worked out for you. Regarding KING5, for whatever reason that is my most difficult station as well. I'm hoping that after the change in 2009 things will improve.

Curious - You said you get 34 channels (including sub-channels). That's the same total I get when channel 20 is working. Is channel 20 back up? Also, do you get KVOS down there?

I did some tests on Sunday, and yes 20 was working (though I don't care at all...). And I counted 33 channels, excluding KVOS, which I can't get.

Dunno if anyone noticed/mentioned this, but it looks like KVOS wants to be a Seattle station. Last week, they filed for new facilities that look like this:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1258591.html

- Trip

Dunno if anyone noticed/mentioned this, but it looks like KVOS wants to be a Seattle station. Last week, they filed for new facilities that look like this:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1258591.html

- Trip

Great. So I'll have a transmitter in my backyard. Just what I need to fry my tuner.

STB - Glad to hear your new antenna worked out for you. Regarding KING5, for whatever reason that is my most difficult station as well. I'm hoping that after the change in 2009 things will improve.

Curious - You said you get 34 channels (including sub-channels). That's the same total I get when channel 20 is working. Is channel 20 back up? Also, do you get KVOS down there? On Saturday, my channel scan brought up KTBW-DT. My Zenith box shows a total of 34 channels. In the past, I have gotten a "blip" on KVOS 35 but never enough to lock the station. Here's what I'm getting and approximate strength (using the DTT900's "guess-timate" meter on a 0 to 10 scale):

4.1 KOMO = 7
5.1, 5.2 = 5
7.1, 7.2 = 6
9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.5 = 7
11.1 = 8
13.1, 13.2 = 6 to 8 (depends on orientation)
16.1, 16.2 = 8 (surprisingly strong - better than KING)
20.1, 20.2, 20.3, 20.4, 20.5 = 5 to 7 (per orientation)
22.1 = 7
28.1, 28.2, 28.3, 28.4 = 8 to 9 (per orientation)
33.1, 33.2, 33.3, 33.4 = 6 to 8 (per orientation)
42.1 = 5 to 7 (per orientation)
45.1, 45.2, 45.3, 45.4 = 5 to 7
51.1 = 7 to 9 (very strong)

34 channels total. I'm looking to find a tripod or base to keep this in my bedroom - kind of like a Christmas tree - so I can rotate it as needed. Not bad considering the unit is placed indoors - it's a tribute to the excellent RF performance of the inexpensive Zenith DTT-900 CECB.

The biggest surprise, now that I can actually obtain reception on KONG (a channel I could never get for more than a few seconds using a conventional indoor antenna), is why KONG comes in so much better than KING.

Dunno if anyone noticed/mentioned this, but it looks like KVOS wants to be a Seattle station. I'm not surprised. The FCC regards them as part of the Seattle DMA, yet due to their Orcas Island transmitter location and Bellingham city of license, cable companies south of Marysville aren't required to carry KVOS under "must carry". Accordingly, cable ops south of Marysville have deleted KVOS from their channel lineups particularly due to complicated syndex rules. Of course, in moving to Marysville/Everett, KVOS would now be competing directly with other Seattle stations for syndicated programming rights.

Moving the KVOS transmitter squarely in Snohomish County allows them to negotiate with cable companies under "must carry" rules affecting King, Pierce and Kitsap county cable systems. In other words, KVOS could become a "normal" Seattle market station.

Government broadcast regulators in Canada and the U.S., as well as lobbying efforts by intellectual property rights holders, have probably also influenced this decision to relocate the KVOS transmitter further away from the U.S./Canada border and closer to a primary U.S. audience.

What might happen to the KVOS transmitter on Mt. Constitution? Will KBCB be relocating as well?

I posted this on the Comcast thread but thought it useful to duplicate here.

I just got a reply from John Dietrich, a local VP at Comcast:

"During the course of next year, we will start commencing what we are call our “digital transition”, which is not to be confused with the FCC-mandated digital transition in Feb 2009 where the broadcasters have to turn off their analog over-the-air signals. The commercials you reference below pertain to the FCC digital transition. In relation to this edict, we will continue to broadcast our signals in both digital and analog so that customers will not be impacted when the local broadcasters turn off their analog signals. This is why we are advertising, “if you have cable, you don’t have to do anything”.

We have a separate project or effort next year to begin to convert a number of analog channels into digital. It is important to know that we have no plans to digitize what we call limited cable (the first 13 analog channels). We are planning to do is to digitize a large percentage, but by no means all, of what we now call expanded basic. Of the approximately 50 or so expanded basic analog channels (which sit above the 13 limited basic channels), we will digitize about 35 of those. For those expanded basic customers, we will provide a digital-to-analog adapter at no charge. These will work fine with your analog devices. Our current plan is to provide up to three analog-to-digital adapters at no charge to existing customer households. Any digital boxes that you need on top of that will be $3.50 per month, just like they are now. I have no idea where the $8.95 number came from. "


So the tech support person I chatted with was WAY off base.

Dunno if anyone noticed/mentioned this, but it looks like KVOS wants to be a Seattle station. Last week, they filed for new facilities that look like this:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1258591.html

- Trip

Very interesting. That tower location is near Dahlbero Mtn. north of Granite Falls. With a transmitter at 2540 feet they'd have clear shot at just about anywhere around the entire Puget Sound area. Being 64 miles to downtown Tacoma means a good high-gain antenna should easily pull in their 1000 kW signal.

I posted this on the Comcast thread but thought it useful to duplicate here.

I just got a reply from John Dietrich, a local VP at Comcast:

"During the course of next year, we will start commencing what we are call our “digital transition”, which is not to be confused with the FCC-mandated digital transition in Feb 2009 where the broadcasters have to turn off their analog over-the-air signals. The commercials you reference below pertain to the FCC digital transition. In relation to this edict, we will continue to broadcast our signals in both digital and analog so that customers will not be impacted when the local broadcasters turn off their analog signals. This is why we are advertising, “if you have cable, you don’t have to do anything”.

We have a separate project or effort next year to begin to convert a number of analog channels into digital. It is important to know that we have no plans to digitize what we call limited cable (the first 13 analog channels). We are planning to do is to digitize a large percentage, but by no means all, of what we now call expanded basic. Of the approximately 50 or so expanded basic analog channels (which sit above the 13 limited basic channels), we will digitize about 35 of those. For those expanded basic customers, we will provide a digital-to-analog adapter at no charge. These will work fine with your analog devices. Our current plan is to provide up to three analog-to-digital adapters at no charge to existing customer households. Any digital boxes that you need on top of that will be $3.50 per month, just like they are now. I have no idea where the $8.95 number came from. "


So the tech support person I chatted with was WAY off base.

quarque

Well done. Glad you cleared that up. I figured they would give out boxes, the little ones that look like modems with no display, as needed.
What's interesting, is they say they aren't going to digitize ch's 2 through 13. Really. It's digitized now. That's the 79- series you get with a QAM tuner (79-1 = ch2, 79-2 = ch3, etc). On my folks Elite plasma with QAM, they get ch4 analog (grainy), 79-3 (ch4 analog signal riding a digital carrier, very clean standard def), and 82-4 (ch4 HD).
I also think they meant to say " Our current plan is to provide up to three digital-to-analog adapters at no charge...."
I'm sure it's more cost effective to keep the analog channels for the existing basic customers, as they won't have to hand out those little digital converters. There are still places, though, where analog is ugly from ingress and people need them, like Queen Anne hill.

Very interesting about KVOS. I wish they had the same old movie schedule they had decades ago. Lots of off the wall, rarely shown ones. Used to stay up and watch grainy fuzzy pictures from my shack in Redondo. In any case, the more channels, the merrier !

Dan

I posted this on the Comcast thread but thought it useful to duplicate here.

I just got a reply from John Dietrich, a local VP at Comcast:

"..... It is important to know that we have no plans to digitize what we call limited cable (the first 13 analog channels). We are planning to do is to digitize a large percentage, but by no means all, of what we now call expanded basic. Of the approximately 50 or so expanded basic analog channels (which sit above the 13 limited basic channels), we will digitize about 35 of those. ...... "So the tech support person I chatted with was WAY off base. Very good explanation which makes sense in terms of reclaiming bandwidth for Comcast's high-speed Internet and voice telephone services. But Comcast's analog "Limited Basic" tier in most of King County consists of 32 channels, which is 19 channels more than "the 13 limited basic channels" quoted: 2 through 24; 26 through 29; 75 through 78; and 99. These are broken down as follows:

14 Local "must carry" OTAs: KWPX/3, KOMO/4, KING/5, KONG/6, KIRO/7, KCTS/9, KMYQ/10, KSTW/11, KBTC/12, KCPQ/13, KHCV/15, KBWF/18, KTBW/20, KUNS/29

2 Popular distant-signal OTAs: CBUT/99, KBCB/14

4 Government channels: 21, 22, 23, 24
4 education channels: 26, 27, 28, 76
1 public access: 77
7 miscellaneous: NWCN/2, Discovery/8, Shopping/Leased Access 16, Shopping/Leased Access 17, Hallmark/19
KCTS Plus/75, Weather/78

Which of the 14 "must carry" OTAs will be offered a financial deal by Comcast to waive their must carry rights on analog "limited basic"? Will the shopping channels 14, 15, 16 and 17 (two OTA stations and two cable-only) stay on analog? Will the government and educational channels agree to waive analog coverage?

By contrast, with a CECB and a good antenna, this writer can obtain all 14 local channels and a total of 34 subchannels - although many of them are redundant or uninteresting (as is also the case with Comcast cable's lineup). OTA is free, Comcast's service is not.

stb - I agree his math doesn't quite add up but at least we know their general plan (subject to change at any time). The free converters are supposed to become available Q1 of 09 depending on vendor performance etc.

quarque

Well done. Glad you cleared that up. I figured they would give out boxes, the little ones that look like modems with no display, as needed.
What's interesting, is they say they aren't going to digitize ch's 2 through 13. ...



I think what he meant to say is they have no plans to *eliminate* analog 2-13 even though they already have digital equivalents available if you're wiling to pay for them. Analog locals wil be the last to go after all others have been "digitized". They are hoping that by that time (2011+) the number of people with analog stuff will have diminished greatly. Problem is, many analog sets last 20 years!

stb - I agree his math doesn't quite add up but at least we know their general plan (subject to change at any time). The free converters are supposed to become available Q1 of 09 depending on vendor performance etc. The main emphasis is migrating the expanded basic analogs (forty channels from 30 to 70) up to digital. That would free up a huge amount of bandwidth. Bumping the PEG channels to digital would require some negotiating with local government regulators. Bumping the 7 "miscellaneous" channels (NWCN/2, Discovery/8, Shopping/Leased Access 16, Shopping/Leased Access 17, Hallmark/19, KCTS Plus/75, Weather/78) might involve some negotiation between Comcast and the respective content providers.

Perhaps analog limited basic could be pared down to the 16 OTA stations (14 local, plus the two regional OTAs, KBCB and CBUT). That would actually mean that the lowest level of cable TV service would resemble what it did in the 1960s as "community antenna television". However, I don't know if the government regulators will consent to bumping all those PEG channels to digital-only. Local politicians like to think they are being watched on TV by their constituents!

This scenario also assumes the FCC doesn't force Comcast to offer the various OTA DTV subchannels in analog (i.e. KWPX 33.2 Qubo, KWPX 33.3 ION Life, KTBW 20.2 Church Channel, KIRO 7.2 RTN). Since the 14 local OTAs televise 34 subchannels, such a regulatory mandate might make analog limited cable service more difficult to continue.

Have others noticed more reception problems with KING-DT 48 than with the other QA Hill transmitters? Now that I have a CM4221 clone working successfully as an indoor aerial, I've noticed that KING-DT's signal is far more variable than KONG-DT, even though KONG is 20 metres lower on the same transmission tower and at somewhat lower power.

Have others noticed more reception problems with KING-DT 48 than with the other QA Hill transmitters? Now that I have a CM4221 clone working successfully as an indoor aerial, I've noticed that KING-DT's signal is far more variable than KONG-DT, even though KONG is 20 metres lower on the same transmission tower and at somewhat lower power.

stb - Tuesday night, my wife and I were watching "America's Got Talent" and KING-DT's signal started breaking up at around 9:50pm or so. It had been fine all evening. Usually, KING-DT is the weakest when it's the nicest outside. KONG-DT almost always comes in just fine. I think KING-DT's reception problems are probably related to the higher frequency it's broadcast at, maybe someone more technically inclined than I could chime in and clarify if that's the case.

I've noticed the same thing as well. I've noticed similar problems with channel 9, which also has a high frequency, though it changes to VHF in 2009. I'm hoping that after the switch in Feb, the King antenna will get relocated to the top of the tower which might help. I may have to buy cable or a better tuner if something doesn't change, as we tend to watch King via the analog signal now.

I've noticed the same thing as well. I've noticed similar problems with channel 9, which also has a high frequency, though it changes to VHF in 2009. I'm hoping that after the switch in Feb, the King antenna will get relocated to the top of the tower which might help. I may have to buy cable or a better tuner if something doesn't change, as we tend to watch King via the analog signal now. I tend to watch KING via the Comcast analog feed. The other stations (KOMO, KIRO, KCTS, etc) are coming in rather well with very few breakups.

Worth noting: KUNS (real channel 50 virtual 51) comes in exceptionally smoothly. It is a higher frequency than KING, though also at a much higher transmitter location on West Tiger (southeast of Issaquah).

Although it's not too likely to happen, I wish ALL of the Seattle OTA stations would move their towers to West Tiger. This would be similar to the situation in Portland, where all the major OTA DTV transmitters are up in the West Hills (just west of the Oregon Zoo, and close to Beaverton). It would make it far easier for most Seattle area viewers to point their aerial in one direction to get reception, and provide more consistent coverage of the entire metropolitan Seattle area.

An additional benefit for broadcasters: moving the transmitters from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill and Gold Mountain over to West Tiger materially reduces transmission levels away from Canada. This seems to be a major concern of the FCC pursuant to its obligations under the Agreement Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States of America Relating to the TV Broadcasting Service (http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/smt-gst.nsf/en/sf01395e.html), enacted in 1994.

I tend to watch KING via the Comcast analog feed. The other stations (KOMO, KIRO, KCTS, etc) are coming in rather well with very few breakups.

Worth noting: KUNS (real channel 50 virtual 51) comes in exceptionally smoothly. It is a higher frequency than KING, though also at a much higher transmitter location on West Tiger (southeast of Issaquah).

Although it's not too likely to happen, I wish ALL of the Seattle OTA stations would move their towers to West Tiger. This would be similar to the situation in Portland, where all the major OTA DTV transmitters are up in the West Hills (just west of the Oregon Zoo, and close to Beaverton). It would make it far easier for most Seattle area viewers to point their aerial in one direction to get reception, and provide more consistent coverage of the entire metropolitan Seattle area.

An additional benefit for broadcasters: moving the transmitters from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill and Gold Mountain over to West Tiger materially reduces transmission levels away from Canada. This seems to be a major concern of the FCC pursuant to its obligations under the Agreement Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States of America Relating to the TV Broadcasting Service (http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/smt-gst.nsf/en/sf01395e.html), enacted in 1994.

As a rule, if the "signal" (which remember is not level, but quality to the receiver), bounces around, then that typically indicates a multipath condition.

Mulipath is where the signal direct from the station and one or more reflections, arrive at the receiver at a slightly, (and varied) times. Just like an effective antenna radiates best at a particular frequency, multipath reflections can vary depending on frequency, and the size plus makeup of the reflecting surface. Trees, hills, cars, busses, trucks, train cars, people with metal plates in their heads, you name it, can act as a reflector at a particular wave length.

Depending on the distance from the transmission site, the frequency, and the field strength of the station at your receiver, multipath can actually be more pronounced with higher power stations. Obviously the more power thrown into the air, the greater chance of it reflecting off an object around the receiving antenna.

I've even seen multipath conditions caused by leaky coaxial cable in an installation, because of either poor or worn out cable. Again, the effect seems to affect certain frequencies more than others.

I tend to watch KING via the Comcast analog feed. The other stations (KOMO, KIRO, KCTS, etc) are coming in rather well with very few breakups.

Worth noting: KUNS (real channel 50 virtual 51) comes in exceptionally smoothly. It is a higher frequency than KING, though also at a much higher transmitter location on West Tiger (southeast of Issaquah).

Although it's not too likely to happen, I wish ALL of the Seattle OTA stations would move their towers to West Tiger. This would be similar to the situation in Portland, where all the major OTA DTV transmitters are up in the West Hills (just west of the Oregon Zoo, and close to Beaverton). It would make it far easier for most Seattle area viewers to point their aerial in one direction to get reception, and provide more consistent coverage of the entire metropolitan Seattle area.

An additional benefit for broadcasters: moving the transmitters from Queen Anne, Capitol Hill and Gold Mountain over to West Tiger materially reduces transmission levels away from Canada. This seems to be a major concern of the FCC pursuant to its obligations under the Agreement Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States of America Relating to the TV Broadcasting Service (http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/smt-gst.nsf/en/sf01395e.html), enacted in 1994.

I say move all the transmitters to Gold Mountain, that would make everything over here a lot easier :).

I can sometimes pick up KCPQ with just a length of cable.

Have others noticed more reception problems with KING-DT 48 than with the other QA Hill transmitters? Now that I have a CM4221 clone working successfully as an indoor aerial, I've noticed that KING-DT's signal is far more variable than KONG-DT, even though KONG is 20 metres lower on the same transmission tower and at somewhat lower power.

seatacboy
I watch KING HD and KONG HD every night for the news, and have no problems. My meter says levels are still the same. And my installation, behind a bunch of trees, is far from perfect.

The one technical bit everyone misses is that even when you think reception is fine, the signal could still be lousy, but just good enough for your particilar receiver to work. It takes very little to push it past that point and start to cause all kinds of minor problems, tiling, voice stutters, freezing, etc. There are sooooo many variables (receiver, antenna type and location, your address, terrain, etc) that trying to point to only one thing as the cause can be deceiving. What bothers one channel may have no affect on another.
What I have found to be consistent is the signals from the towers. Not always, but 99% of the time it's the same. Not perfect, but consistent.

Your trouble could be from a neighbor up the hill that just moved something around in his condo, or has a party and 20 people are just on the other side of the wall from your antenna, all in their best Fat Tuesday garb and ten thousand metal beads..... Talk about multipath !!
The fact you're doing as well as you shows you have a good receiver. Just don't take the signal reception for granted under those conditions.

I agree, it would be great if everyone was on Tiger Mt. Would really simplify things. And when everyone has just one antenna on the top of their tower, it should help, too. How much, hard to say, but sure can't hurt.

Dan

As a rule, if the "signal" (which remember is not level, but quality to the receiver), bounces around, then that typically indicates a multipath condition.

Mulipath is where the signal direct from the station and one or more reflections, arrive at the receiver at a slightly, (and varied) times. Just like an effective antenna radiates best at a particular frequency, multipath reflections can vary depending on frequency, and the size plus makeup of the reflecting surface. Trees, hills, cars, busses, trucks, train cars, people with metal plates in their heads, you name it, can act as a reflector at a particular wave length.

Depending on the distance from the transmission site, the frequency, and the field strength of the station at your receiver, multipath can actually be more pronounced with higher power stations. Obviously the more power thrown into the air, the greater chance of it reflecting off an object around the receiving antenna.

I've even seen multipath conditions caused by leaky coaxial cable in an installation, because of either poor or worn out cable. Again, the effect seems to affect certain frequencies more than others.

So true !
Dan

The one technical bit everyone misses is that even when you think reception is fine, the signal could still be lousy, but just good enough for your particilar receiver to work. It takes very little to push it past that point and start to cause all kinds of minor problems, tiling, voice stutters, freezing, etc. There are sooooo many variables (receiver, antenna type and location, your address, terrain, etc) that trying to point to only one thing as the cause can be deceiving. What bothers one channel may have no affect on another.

What I have found to be consistent is the signals from the towers. Not always, but 99% of the time it's the same. Not perfect, but consistent......The fact you're doing as well as you shows you have a good receiver. Just don't take the signal reception for granted under those conditions. Good points. I'm sure the actual reception here with my indoor CM4221 remains subpar, but there's just enough signal that my Zenith DTT900 can tenaciously grab a viewable signal on just about everything. Believe me, I was quite skeptical I could get any antenna placed indoors to bring in all 14 Seattle OTAs. This may revive my interest in getting an antenna installed on the roof.

Your [reception] trouble could be from a neighbor up the hill that just moved something around in his condo, or has a party and 20 people are just on the other side of the wall from your antenna, all in their best Fat Tuesday garb and ten thousand metal beads...Talk about multipath !! I've literally seen how cars moving in the parking lot, people walking around, and stuff like that does affect reception. This may be a key advantage to placing an antenna on the roof, though a rooftop antenna might be sensitive to helicopters, birds, and wind motion.

I had an odd reception condition last night. I turned on the TV to watch Q13 Fox news at 10, and there was no signal at all! I keep my antenna pointed at KING5 and normally get about a 90% or better signal from Q13. So, in an effort to pick up Q13, I rotated the antenna a few degrees toward their tower, and suddenly the signal came in 100%. Turned the antenna back (probably about 10 degrees or less) - nothing.

I've literally seen how cars moving in the parking lot, people walking around, and stuff like that does affect reception. This may be a key advantage to placing an antenna on the roof, though a rooftop antenna might be sensitive to helicopters, birds, and wind motion.

seatacboy
Once the antenna signal gets strong, when its on the roof, the tuners internal gain will dial down and stop amplifying all the garbage (signal to noise ratio improves). The decoder will have a strong signal as well, and little things won't upset it, again, clean digital.
Similar concept to listening to AM on I-90, and then going through the Mt Baker tunnel. About half way through you start to dial up the volume, noise increases, and you can barely make it out. When you exit the tunnel, the radio is clear again. Same car radio and antenna, station transmitter and power. You can even tweak the tuner a hair above or below frequency and it will still sound pretty good. When listening to a very weak station, any slight change and it's gone.
A very simple explanation, but that's what your TV tuner has to deal with. Thing is you can't hear all the noise the tuners decoder has to deal with, but you see the results.

Once you move the antenna outside, all will be well.

Dan

I had an odd reception condition last night. I turned on the TV to watch Q13 Fox news at 10, and there was no signal at all! I keep my antenna pointed at KING5 and normally get about a 90% or better signal from Q13. So, in an effort to pick up Q13, I rotated the antenna a few degrees toward their tower, and suddenly the signal came in 100%. Turned the antenna back (probably about 10 degrees or less) - nothing.

Whidbey
This is a good example of a weak or ugly signal that's right on the edge of what the decoder can handle. It's called avalanching. When you're barely above minimum, it has just enough to lock on. Once there, you could get readings of 100%, and of course, perfect picture. A slightly weaker signal pushes the decoder over the edge of locking on, and you get zip. Either off or on. When it's teetering on the edge, you get the freezes, tiling, stutters, etc.
For what ever reason, tree's, multipath, The Navy, it made things worse and you had to move the antenna for a better signal. It's also what makes finding the best spot for reception real fun. You never quite know if it's good or just barely there.
Dan

(re posted due to the database crash)
Does anyone know if KIRO is transmitting the new TvGuide digital on screen guide data?

I asked KIRO if they are broadcasting the TVGOS information, and they replied:

"Thank you for waiting while our programming department checked on this.

Yes, we do plan to participate. "

It sounds like they are not broadcasting it yet. It's good to hear that they plan on broadcasting it.

I just updated my blog on http://www.dtvrules.com about system bandwidth, and what are the choke-points that can cause degraded or unreliable system performance. Simply go to the site, and click on Blogs at the top.

Kelly
Good blog. A point to add to help people understand splitters better.
When explaining the loss of additional ports on splitters, mention that the extra loss occurs on all ports, and, whether they're used or not. Thus, as you said, only use a splitter that meets current needs. You can always upgrade later with more TV's.
Dan

I just went to the KCTS web site, and noticed that they are going to change their channels.

http://www.kcts9.org/tvschedule/HDmoving
"As part of our transition to all-digital broadcasting in February 2009, we're moving our high-definition channel from 9.5 (108 on Comcast cable) to 9.1 (Comcast 109) in Western Washington on Monday, September 8."

9.1 = KCTS HD
9.2 = V-ME
9.3 = Create

I just went to the KCTS web site, and noticed that they are going to change their channels.



9.1 = KCTS HD
9.2 = V-ME
9.3 = Create

allen98311
Thanks for the heads up.
For joy. Now I get to reprogram dozens of remotes!
Gotta love progress.........?!
Dan

I just went to the KCTS web site, and noticed that they are going to change their channels.



9.1 = KCTS HD
9.2 = V-ME
9.3 = Create

So we are losing the regular PBS channel. To bad, since there was often different programming on the HD channel from the SD channel.

Will this free up enough bandwidth for PBS so they can broadcast the HD in 1080i?

If you read the announcement closely, it sounds like they're going to start upconverting the main feed and doing HD when available, like the network stations do.

- Trip

I suppose it makes sense. I never understood some of their schedule timing on 9.5 HD (kids programming at 3 a.m., probably taken directly off the PBS network feed). I have a feeling this may result in less HD, but hopefully it will be just less reruns. PBS is now producing more HD material, which should help.

Two subchannels may still be a problem with 1080i, although they did that before (and they really bit-starve 9.2 and 9.3).

Maybe tschall will chime in with some comments. Tim?

Many PBS stations aired the PBS-HD feed directly off the satellite dish. From what I've read, that feed is ending with the analog shutoff, so stations have to begin doing this at some point, that or they'll have to take the PBS-X HD feed, which is even more random than the current feed.

- Trip

Another thought --

Since the satellite providers will probably not be able to handle more than one feed, this change is quite important to those who watch KCTS that way. Directv is working to add PBS HD channels to their HD locals and I assume Dish is doing likewise.

Many PBS stations aired the PBS-HD feed directly off the satellite dish. From what I've read, that feed is ending with the analog shutoff, so stations have to begin doing this at some point, that or they'll have to take the PBS-X HD feed, which is even more random than the current feed.

- Trip

I think that is what KCTS must have done initially, although recently the HD versions of some shows (Nova, Masterpiece) have also appeared at the same time as the analog versions. There has been more local HD (or at least 16:9) programming recently, as well.

So we are losing the regular PBS channel. To bad, since there was often different programming on the HD channel from the SD channel.

Will this free up enough bandwidth for PBS so they can broadcast the HD in 1080i?


I'm of the opinion that 720p gives a superior picture.

I'm of the opinion that 720p gives a superior picture.Lots of people prefer 720p when the source material is 720p, especially fast moving sports. But, isn't PBS source material 1080i? In which case, won't it will look better as native 1080i over downconverted 720p?

Anybody having issues with KCPQ tonight? I can't get a signal OTA (normally my strongest channel), and also can't get to the HD version on dish.. seems odd...

Thanks.

Anybody having issues with KCPQ tonight? I can't get a signal OTA (normally my strongest channel), and also can't get to the HD version on dish.. seems odd...

Thanks.
For me, no 13-1 or -2 on OTA, yes 13-1 on Comcast.

For me, no 13-1 or -2 on OTA, yes 13-1 on Comcast.

Weird.. wonder what the heck is going on.

Weird.. wonder what the heck is going on.

In my case, the KCPQ-DT signal is weak and has faded in and out in the past due to weather conditions (I think). I am receiving it from the edge of the reception pattern for my 4221 antenna. I even checked my best LG tuner (in a CECB box) and it reads 0 signal OTA.

In my case, the KCPQ-DT signal is weak and has faded in and out in the past due to weather conditions (I think). I am receiving it from the edge of the reception pattern for my 4221 antenna. I even checked my best LG tuner (in a CECB box) and it reads 0 signal OTA.

13.1 was always pretty strong for me (80-88 on my TiVo's antenna strength meter). Tonight it is locked at 0. Looks like they aren't even transmitting.

Analog is still there though. I'm wondering if it's some pre-season NFL HD blackout type thing. Seems kind of weird for the transmitter to just be off.

I'm of the understanding that KCTS had a lot of issues doing multi-channel when transmitting 1080i. I've been told they convert to 720p for transmission and the multi-channel works much better. Since "i" is interlaced, it actually takes two fields of 540 lines to produce one single full-frame picture and this causes "blurring" during fast motion such as sports. It is, however, the same scheme as the analog system of delivering pictures. You only get 30 full pictures per second (actually, 29.97 per second). On the other hand, the "p" or progressive option offers 360 less horizontal lines of information in the full picture, but it delivers a full frame of video at twice the rate. In other words, 60 complete pictures every second (actually, 59.94 per second). There is no "blurring" of images during fast motion. During the cross-conversion process, the "missing" lines are taken out of the image as digital circuits calculate the video values to be transmitted. Because there is no color subcarrier like there is in the analog system, the resulting image artifacts from cross conversion are minimal and difficult to detect unless you have specific test patterns and know what to look for. Cross conversion to 720p for transmission is not unique to KCTS.

13.1 was always pretty strong for me (80-88 on my TiVo's antenna strength meter). Tonight it is locked at 0. Looks like they aren't even transmitting.

Analog is still there though. I'm wondering if it's some pre-season NFL HD blackout type thing. Seems kind of weird for the transmitter to just be off.

wildjoe, binaural, et al
Looks like the HD transmitter is down. It normally blasts in here. Seeing no carrier, either, but 13 HD is on Direct, and analog Comast is up....
Dan

So, 13.1/.2 (18.1/.2) are back up, but does anyone else think they're transmitting at a lower power?

What's weird to me is I was just fine-tuning my OTA setup on 8/20 - 8/21, in large part to pull in KCPQ more reliably. I was doing okay on VHF channels and 22.x in UHF, but 18.x was less than 50%. So I've just upgraded to dual antennas: a RadioShack VU-90 XR for VHF and an AntennasDirect DB8 for UHF, the antennas separated by 9' on a rooftop motor-drive polemount, joined with same-length coax to separate UHF/VHF inputs on a ChannelMaster 7777 (configured appropriately).

On 8/20 I was (at last) pulling in KCPQ (18.1/.2) pretty reliably (at last, after having finally gotten up the DB8 and the 7777), though the weather was a bit dicey (rain/wind).

On 8/21 I got home and replaced the coax to the VU-90 (so it was the same length as the coax for the DB8 -- there was some ghosting in the VHF channels). Go in the house and find that KCPQ was gone entirely (first time I'd checked since the day before).

At first thought it was something I'd done, but then found your remarks on this forum re KCPQ digital being down entirely.

As of yesterday, 8/22, KCPQ is back, but less than 50% -- not enough to decode a picture.

So, back to my original question, is KCPQ transmitting at a lower power today (8/23) than it was on 8/20, before it went down? Did they blow a transmitter/amplifier on 8/21 and now they're back up but with backup equipment?

I hope it's not my antenna setup, because I don't see any way to improve it at this point.

Yes, KCPQ is transmitting at lower power. The director of engineering sent me this response Friday to my email query:Loss of commercial power to the transmitter site in Bremerton started @
5PM yesterday and was not restored until 4:40AM this morning, we also
suffered the loss of one of the two transmitter output tubes on the DTV
signal when the commercial power was re-applied, we will remain @ 50%
power on the DTV signal until mid next week when we replace the output
tube.

Had to do a re-scan and noticed that K68DL (the 3ABN LP from one of the Capitol Hill Towers) has lit up as an LD on channel 8. There's no PSIP. 8-1 and 8-2 are transmitting video programming, 8-3 and 8-4 are audio-only. FCC says they're transmitting 170W on this CP, with an APP in for 250W.

I'm seeing some signal on physical channel 30, but not enough to produce a picture or give me station ID. I wonder if that is K68DL.

I'm able to view PBS Tacoma tonight. Low signal strength according to the signal to noise ratio meter, but both of my tuners (Insignia CECB and Samsung 260) produced a rock solid picture. Hopefully it's not just the weather and this may be permanent.

Also, I've not been able to tell if KCPQ is transmitting at a lower power. Very strong signal here.

I'm seeing some signal on physical channel 30, but not enough to produce a picture or give me station ID. I wonder if that is K68DL.

I'm able to view PBS Tacoma tonight. Low signal strength according to the signal to noise ratio meter, but both of my tuners (Insignia CECB and Samsung 260) produced a rock solid picture. Hopefully it's not just the weather and this may be permanent.

Also, I've not been able to tell if KCPQ is transmitting at a lower power. Very strong signal here.

It looks like KUSE-LP is moving from CH. 58 to CH 30.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=6692

Whidbey: KIRO has a CP to convert K30FL in Port Angeles from a TX to an LD. That might the blip you're seeing on digital 30 up there? I'm not sure if they've started converting their translators yet.

K68DL's LD is 8 (transport channel, no PSIP at all), so you wouldn't be seeing that on 30.

Allen: Makes you wonder what the guys at Equity are thinking, huh? I wonder if they'll actually build out that CP since it's analog? Time will tell...

I just looked and they're still alive on 58 (analog, of course)... with a black screen and silent audio.

Saw this yesterday on a (non-broadcast) cable TV channel during the business news: an ad for KIRO7 about the digital TV transition, featuring KIRO's Rick VanCise (http://www.kirotv.com/station/2824696/detail.html). The ad specifically endorses Comcast as a "we've got you covered" solution to the analog shutoff: no converter box needed, no antenna, no hassles.

Has anyone else here seen this ad? As much as anyone not employed in the TV industry, I'm learning the technical difficulties of ATSC OTA reception. But it's really puzzling to see a local OTA broadcaster running co-branded advertising with Comcast, touting cable as "the solution".

Do KIRO's current owners, Cox Enterprises (http://www.coxenterprises.com/corp/home.htm), have a financial stake in Comcast?

Cox has their own cable company, Cox Communications, but they don't have any systems locally. Several of the PSAs regarding the transition mention that cable and satellite customers may not have to do anything. The Comcast ads could easily be confused with PSAs, which is a bit misleading.

Cox has their own cable company, Cox Communications, but they don't have any systems locally. Several of the PSAs regarding the transition mention that cable and satellite customers may not have to do anything. The Comcast ads could easily be confused with PSAs, which is a bit misleading. Agree. Like other OTA stations, KIRO-TV itself has run PSAs about the converter-box program. However, these specific Comcast/KIRO ads so far have only been seen on non-OTA cable channels (CNBC comes to mind). They haven't been played OTA on KIRO/7 analog, KIRO-DT 7.1 or KIRO-DT 7.2 (RTN).

These Comcast/KIRO ads are produced to closely resemble the various "official" DTV Transition PSAs, as though KIRO was providing a community service by explicitly recommending Comcast to its viewers.

Do KIRO's current owners, Cox Enterprises (http://www.coxenterprises.com/corp/home.htm), have a financial stake in Comcast?

Probably a bit of quid pro quo is all: Cox doesn't have a stake in Comcast, but Cox is the third (?) largest MSO and operates a huge number of systems on its own. What's good for one MSO is good for all MSOs.

Well, if these ads are only being shown on Comcast, it may just be specific information targetet at Comcast subscribers.