Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 28

DanKurts

09-08-08, 08:30 AM

From the looks of it, the test appears to be working quite well for us here at the studio.
Of course we have a cut ch.11 antenna with a preamp and I am running a very hefty cable down from the studio rooftop here in Renton. We are feeding 3 DTV tuners off the 1 feed. I have a Sansonic CECB running with an indication of 100/100 quality and signal strength. A 50" SXRD with a signal strength of 73/100 with an AGC of 20% and an SNR of 21. Also, we're running a professional Sencore IRD3187A with an MER of 27...higher than we receive with ch.36.
Our location in Renton is about 8 miles south of the capitol hill transmitter site, although we are behind a 400' hill and have many 80' trees between us and the hill.
No dropouts!!! :D
I will observe the next test on Sept. 25th from my home in So. King County.
I look forward to hearing back from the forum!!

PS: yes, ch.11 analog on comcast is fed by fiber. DT is OTA only to comcast.

RDiotte
CE, KSTW

Ray
Well, it was very interesting.
Basically, the 4221 worked better than I thought. I'm 22 miles from you, 300ft elevation, and almost line of sight. There's about 5 big Fir trees in the way in my back yard. The analog signal comes in -12db to -10db video and -11.7db to -11db audio. When HD came on, it averaged -11db, but the waveshape was not flat. The last part of the sweep had two 5db peaks which is enough to cause my H20 Direct to not lock. Not your fault, just the trees. H20 is not a swift receiver for ugly signals. However, my Samsung H260 had no problem locking, 4 solid bars out of 10.

The 4228 gave a much better waveshape, almost flat, just had a small 3db rolloff the last 20%. H20 would've locked on to that. I was holding the 4228 below my 4221, so not a real fair test, but obviously worked well. Overall level was about 2db higher. Again, not real scientific, but proves the point the 4221 and 4228 will work. The little DB2 got zip, just too small.

Now, for the really good news.
I've had two CECB's lying around for months, no time to test them out. One's a Zenith DT901 and the other a Channel Master D2A. Both locked on with the 4221, no problem. To see how sensitive they were, I added 3db pads until breakup. The Zenith got down to -23db. Very good, but the Channel Master went further to -27db. For those of you not familiar with these levels, that's running on fumes. My HD meter quits reading at -25db.
Even more interesting, the D2A has a built in "strength meter", for what they're worth, and all the channels, 4 through 22 read 100%, clear down to -27db ! CH28, which doesn't read on my meter here, bad location, locks on solid with a reading of 40-48%, and only when the signal is padded down to -27db, does it finally start to break up. That's amazing sensitivity while still decoding an ugly, ugly signal. The Zenith was almost as good, but for what ever reason, it's indicated "strength" never got above 90%. When it indicated below 40%, or about -23db on any given channel, it would start to break up.

I'm very impressed with these two boxes. And given you were only pumping out whimpy-watts, that bodes very well. More, for all those with bow tie style antenna's, they have a good chance of dodging problems when you switch over to VHF.

I'll have my Sencore analyzer, which reads BER, SNR and other info charged up for the next test. I rarely use it because it's so slow going through channels. Royal pain when aiming, but worth breaking out for the extra data.

Life is good !

Dan

rdn

09-08-08, 11:54 AM

While watching Ron's project unfurl over on Channel 11, I noticed Channel 9's changes have taken place.

Ch. 9-5 is now gone, and 9-1 is now HD. (9-2 and 9-3 are unchanged.)

9-5 on Comcast now contains a placard redirecting viewers.

And one more change, from afar...

In about 6 hours, analog TV shuts down completely in Wilmington, NC.

Should be interesting to hear how the test market shutdown goes.

I saw that also (9-5 was missing when I rescanned to pick up 11-1). Strangely, the scan at 3 am did not pick up 7-1 or 7-2 at all, although Titantv shows KIRO as having programming at that time. When I rescanned at 7 am to get 11-1 UHF again, KIRO was back.

Supposedly Directv was going to switch to picking up the digital signals for all Seattle stations on September 1, but I can see from the on-screen information on KCTS that it is still using the analog feed.

Channel 11 looked good, even though it was just the color bars. Capitol Hill is practically line-of-sight from here, except for the trees. I'm using a RS VHF/UHF combo array, so that isn't much of a test (I cannot receive the LP channel 8 station, however).

DanKurts

09-08-08, 01:56 PM

I saw that also (9-5 was missing when I rescanned to pick up 11-1). Strangely, the scan at 3 am did not pick up 7-1 or 7-2 at all, although Titantv shows KIRO as having programming at that time. When I rescanned at 7 am to get 11-1 UHF again, KIRO was back.

Supposedly Directv was going to switch to picking up the digital signals for all Seattle stations on September 1, but I can see from the on-screen information on KCTS that it is still using the analog feed.

Channel 11 looked good, even though it was just the color bars. Capitol Hill is practically line-of-sight from here, except for the trees. I'm using a RS VHF/UHF combo array, so that isn't much of a test (I cannot receive the LP channel 8 station, however).

rdn
I saw 7-1, 7-2 throughout. Ch 9-5 was already gone from my guide, but 9-1 was there in HD. They did have some problems, though. While I was sifting through all the test notes, I left 9-1 on to watch Steve Miller concert. It kept loosing sound once in a while, then came back. Satellite 9 did the same. The guide showed it was signed off, though...... strange. It even went completly off, yet the other sub channels were there, had some Paul McCartney show on 9-2 or 9-3..... Guess they were doing some late night fun as well.
Dan

BIslander

09-08-08, 03:05 PM

Supposedly Directv was going to switch to picking up the digital signals for all Seattle stations on September 1, but I can see from the on-screen information on KCTS that it is still using the analog feed.
Was there an announcement about the DirecTV switch somewhere? Not all local shows on the digital side are 4:3 center cut safe - Evening Magazine and KING 5 News Upfront, for example.

quarque

09-08-08, 10:44 PM

Dan - good news, as you say. Is that Channel Master D2A available locally so I don't have to pay shipping?

rdn

09-09-08, 01:29 AM

Was there an announcement about the DirecTV switch somewhere? Not all local shows on the digital side are 4:3 center cut safe - Evening Magazine and KING 5 News Upfront, for example.

I saw a link to http://mstv.org/docs/satschedalpha.pdf on one of the DBStalk Directv forums. It says that the switch was scheduled for September 1 for both DirecTV and Dish Network. KCTS was the only one I had checked when I posted that, but it appears that Directv is using the analog feed for KONG, as well. I can't tell about the others (they are showing either 4:3 or center cut safe programming right now). Maybe the schedule has changed.

rdn

09-09-08, 01:37 AM

rdn
I saw 7-1, 7-2 throughout. Ch 9-5 was already gone from my guide, but 9-1 was there in HD. They did have some problems, though. While I was sifting through all the test notes, I left 9-1 on to watch Steve Miller concert. It kept loosing sound once in a while, then came back. Satellite 9 did the same. The guide showed it was signed off, though...... strange. It even went completly off, yet the other sub channels were there, had some Paul McCartney show on 9-2 or 9-3..... Guess they were doing some late night fun as well.
Dan

I occasionally have issues with the Queen Anne stations (KING and KONG are usually fine (with occasional freezing), KIRO sometimes cannot be decoded and KOMO practically never comes in). I didn't check the signal strength on 7-1. I've tried several antenna placements and each is a compromise from my Eagledale location (trees are a major factor).

My DirecTV receivers don't scan but use the guide data (from Tribune). It still showed 9-5, with the same programming as 9-1.

DanKurts

09-09-08, 02:33 AM

Dan - good news, as you say. Is that Channel Master D2A available locally so I don't have to pay shipping?

quarque
Yes. Fry's has had them all along, but didn't get in on the coupon program at first. They have since been authorized, naturally, after I went out of state to get mine and had to pay shipping. Oh, well.
Good news is they are both really good, somewhat better than my H260, which was my gold standard. H260 is still a very good box. Now if they could get the Channel Master chip into the Direct receivers, or make a STB that was HD, the world would be very sunny!

To further the testing info, ch's 42, 45 and 51 have ugly waveshapes and weak levels here, but do come in on my H260. However, the little CECB's were even more sensitive, by another 12db. Again, I was very impressed. I'm tempted to pop open the boxes and see what chip they're using. Think I will.
Update you in a while......
Dan

DanKurts

09-09-08, 02:37 AM

I occasionally have issues with the Queen Anne stations (KING and KONG are usually fine (with occasional freezing), KIRO sometimes cannot be decoded and KOMO practically never comes in). I didn't check the signal strength on 7-1. I've tried several antenna placements and each is a compromise from my Eagledale location (trees are a major factor).

My DirecTV receivers don't scan but use the guide data (from Tribune). It still showed 9-5, with the same programming as 9-1.

rdn
Very interesting. My H20 guide shows both 9-1 and 9-5 in HD, but only 9-1 works.
Think I'll try a to upgrade the S/W and see if it still shows that way.....
Let you know later.
Dan

zyland

09-09-08, 02:45 AM

I can't remember who suggested Silver Sensor but whoever you are, thanks. I had a family member who moved there recently and couldn't put up an outdoor antenna. The Silver Sensor works great. They get all the local HD channels and some of the SD channels as well.

DanKurts

09-09-08, 04:09 AM

Dan - good news, as you say. Is that Channel Master D2A available locally so I don't have to pay shipping?

quarque
Each box has a different chipset. Snooping around on the internet found all kinds of info on each chip.
Found some info on the CECB forum from AVIO about the Channel Master

The largest chip is a STx7707nuc appears to be 26 pins/side. ... I was not sucessful in locating that particular IC on the STMicroelectronics website - http://www.st.com/stonline/

However I located the following that, although more full featured, sounds similar to the solution required for a CECB:

Single-chip, low-cost HD set-top box decoder
Generic Part Number / Orderable Part Number
STm7710 / STM7710ZUC
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/12654/stm7710.htm

PDF Data Brief:
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/12654.pdf

The Zenith was similar. Couldn't find out a whole lot, but not really that important.

Bottom line, though, is they work. Bare bones, sure, wierdness on each, yep. Nothing you can't work with, though. Kind of surprised some people are expecting all kinds great things from these, Dolby, ethernet, USB, etc. They're only basic NON-HD boxes. Still, both are very good at what they do. If you want all the toys, then get a Hi-Def H260. I'm looking forward to an improved model of it. If they can get these cheapies to work this well for minimum bucks, better HD boxes shouldn't be far behind.

For now, though, You can't go wrong with either of these basic ones. My choice, if you only need one, is the Channel Master.
Dan

DanKurts

09-09-08, 04:34 AM

I occasionally have issues with the Queen Anne stations (KING and KONG are usually fine (with occasional freezing), KIRO sometimes cannot be decoded and KOMO practically never comes in). I didn't check the signal strength on 7-1. I've tried several antenna placements and each is a compromise from my Eagledale location (trees are a major factor).

My DirecTV receivers don't scan but use the guide data (from Tribune). It still showed 9-5, with the same programming as 9-1.

rdn
Upgraded the S/W on my H20, still shows 9-5 and 9-1 in the guide, and both in HD......
Ya think maybe Microsoft had a hand in the Guide software ?!
Dan

Trip in VA

09-09-08, 10:10 AM

With many thanks to zyland, my site now has the data for the Seattle TV stations (with the exception of KWDK, KHCV, and K08OU-D). The data shows that KIRO is now running TVGOS, in at least one form.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=18

Enjoy, and let me know if you see any mistakes.

- Trip

rdn

09-09-08, 10:23 AM

rdn
Very interesting. My H20 guide shows both 9-1 and 9-5 in HD, but only 9-1 works.
Think I'll try a to upgrade the S/W and see if it still shows that way.....
Let you know later.
Dan

Since the H20 will scan (the DVRs use a database), I think a rescan would fix the 9-5 listing. If you want to play with the software, check out the "cutting edge" Directv forum on dbstalk.com. On Friday/Saturday nights there is a period where you can download test versions of the new stuff.

Do you have a H20-600? That one uses the LG 5th generation chip. I had one before the HR20 DVR came out and it worked quite well (but sure got hot). Upgrading the software (or even rebooting) should redo the guide information in any case. I don't know what chip the HR20 uses, but I also have an AM21 external OTA tuner on my HR21 OTA-less DVR and it uses the ATI Theater 311, which is pretty good, but not as good as the LG.

seatacboy

09-09-08, 12:06 PM

Well, if these ads are only being shown on Comcast, it may just be specific information targetet at Comcast subscribers. KIRO Transition to Digital Television presented by Comcast (http://www.kirotv.com/digital-tv/index.html) web site.

BIslander

09-09-08, 02:30 PM

I saw a link to http://mstv.org/docs/satschedalpha.pdf on one of the DBStalk Directv forums. It says that the switch was scheduled for September 1 for both DirecTV and Dish Network. KCTS was the only one I had checked when I posted that, but it appears that Directv is using the analog feed for KONG, as well. I can't tell about the others (they are showing either 4:3 or center cut safe programming right now). Maybe the schedule has changed.
That would appear to be the case, at least for Directv. KING is airing Ellen in HD today on KING-DT. The show is letterboxed on the analog channel. The analog version on Directv is letterboxed with curtains. If Directv was downconverting the HD channel, it would be full screen, center cut on the analog side. So, it would appear they haven't made the switch yet.

DanKurts

09-09-08, 04:06 PM

Since the H20 will scan (the DVRs use a database), I think a rescan would fix the 9-5 listing. If you want to play with the software, check out the "cutting edge" Directv forum on dbstalk.com. On Friday/Saturday nights there is a period where you can download test versions of the new stuff.

Do you have a H20-600? That one uses the LG 5th generation chip. I had one before the HR20 DVR came out and it worked quite well (but sure got hot). Upgrading the software (or even rebooting) should redo the guide information in any case. I don't know what chip the HR20 uses, but I also have an AM21 external OTA tuner on my HR21 OTA-less DVR and it uses the ATI Theater 311, which is pretty good, but not as good as the LG.

rdn
Mine is a 600. It does other goofy breakups, though, which points me to a flaky box. Their quality has really gone down since they started making their own boxes again. Some HD boxes do very well on antenna, others are really bad, huge gap in ability. Whatever chip/chips they're using are widely inconsistent, even among same models.
Reload didn't cure ch9-5 problem, still shows both.
Thanks for the sat forum info, I'll check it out.
Dan

rdn

09-10-08, 01:18 AM

rdn
Mine is a 600. It does other goofy breakups, though, which points me to a flaky box. Their quality has really gone down since they started making their own boxes again. Some HD boxes do very well on antenna, others are really bad, huge gap in ability. Whatever chip/chips they're using are widely inconsistent, even among same models.
Reload didn't cure ch9-5 problem, still shows both.
Thanks for the sat forum info, I'll check it out.
Dan

It must store the data in that case. Try going into setup and let it rescan.

I hooked up a few more tuners to get some comparison, but with all the splitters I have lost 51-1 (one of the marginal ones here). Sometimes you just can't win.

artshotwell

09-10-08, 01:35 AM

No ABC News in HD? Gee, ABC started doing their evening news in HD a week or so ago and it was great until last weekend. Since Saturday, ABC evening News, and ABC This Week (Sunday am) have been in SD, even though ABC's got their HD logo on display at the front of the shows. Anyone know what's going on???

DanKurts

09-10-08, 01:38 AM

It must store the data in that case. Try going into setup and let it rescan.

I hooked up a few more tuners to get some comparison, but with all the splitters I have lost 51-1 (one of the marginal ones here). Sometimes you just can't win.

rdn
Wierdness..... It's not a full moon....
Haven't played with the setup on my receiver in a while, been super busy. The ch11 test got me fooling around with it again, but now have more odd stuff.
Anyway, rescan still shows both 9-1 and 9-5 as HD, but there's more. Never noticed before, because I don't watch 45, but now there's two 45-3 KHCVD channels, with different programming in the guide, but showing the same program when selected. Also getting 36-21, no program showing, but solid signal. Wonder if Ray/ch11 left a subchannel for testing?
Dan

Kelly From KOMO

09-10-08, 12:31 PM

rdn

09-10-08, 04:32 PM

DanKurts

09-10-08, 04:51 PM

I can't understand how so many people got their converters but waited until analog was switched off before using them. I actually watched an analog station briefly yesterday--the first time in over two years.

Bob and Kelly
I agree. I'm amazed at how many people think they have to wait until then to use them. I used to keep a stash of old sat receivers that I got for free when people switched over to cable or upgraded, and gave them to those that wanted just over air and nothing else, along with an antenna install. They used them as standard def converters, and they were all amazed at how much better their older sets looked, even through the ch3 antenna input. Sadly, you can't use the new Direct receivers for that. They have to be on satellite, first, before the antenna function will work.

Obviously all that consumer info is not sending the right messages. I can understand why Kelly has his website up to help in the process.
Kelly, you need to see if your buddies at the station will insert some subliminal 1 second screens to flash by with your site. Worked for popcorn sales at the movie theaters !

Dan

rdn

09-11-08, 03:24 PM

zyland

09-13-08, 12:49 AM

I've been closely following the advance turn off of analog TV in Wilmington, NC this week. The results are slowly coming in. Very interesting!!

Dan, I suspect you're going to be a VERY busy guy in 2009!

Read more about the results so far on my blog at http://www.dtvrules.com Click Blog at the top.
Very good blog. I disagree that based on what's happening in NC we should move the analog sunset for the rest of the nation back. Instead, I would advice the FCC to change the message. The message should be, "convert to dtv, right NOW!!!" Those having problems should be given a 1-800 number to call. Obviously, they should write the number down before making the switch. The February 2009 date should be messaged as a deadline. Right now, I think most people think of it as a starting point.

rdn

09-13-08, 11:50 AM

Very good blog. I disagree that based on what's happening in NC we should move the analog sunset for the rest of the nation back. Instead, I would advice the FCC to change the message. The message should be, "convert to dtv, right NOW!!!" Those having problems should be given a 1-800 number to call. Obviously, they should write the number down before making the switch. The February 2009 date should be messaged as a deadline. Right now, I think most people think of it as a starting point.

I agree. The FCC and the local stations have done a good job of pointing out that viewers need to do something, but for many there there will be more to it than just getting a coupon and purchasing a converter box. There are lessons to be learned from the Wilmington switch, but a delay in the transition is not one of them. There are five months to go and the process should start now.

Budget_HT

09-14-08, 11:40 PM

Been away for a week in my RV (5th wheel trailer).

We visit Fort Worden State Park in Port Townsend at least once a year. In prior visits I was never able to pull in KOMO-DT, but I could get other DT stations on Queen Anne and Capitol hills.

This past week, we were able to watch KOMO-DT most of the time (fog killed it, no surprise there), all using the amplified dipole antenna commonly found on RVs.

Does anyone know if KOMO-DT has changed their signal or radiation pattern recently?

I have used the same antenna and HDTV each time for the last three years.

organikeith

09-16-08, 03:01 PM

mikemikeb

09-16-08, 07:16 PM

I am hoping to be able to pick up FOX OTA at some point so I can drop cable during the football season. =D
Any thoughts? Anyone live in Puyallup valley and picking up FOX?
I am considering the Channelmaster 3018 and doing a self install (even though it looks like a pretty big antenna)Due to the rolling terrain of the Seattle area, you'll need to provide your nearest cross streets for best recommendations. Thanks.

finlay648

09-17-08, 02:30 AM

organikeith

09-17-08, 11:13 AM

Due to the rolling terrain of the Seattle area, you'll need to provide your nearest cross streets for best recommendations. Thanks.
Thanks Mike,
I am on the corner of East Main and 27th street NE in Puyallup.

Keith

Spike89

09-17-08, 11:58 AM

Ever since KCTS-HD switched from 9-5 to 9-1 I've experienced really bad lip sync problems. In addition the picture freezes for a fraction of a second every couple of seconds. This makes many shows unwatchable. For example the Roy Orbison show on tonight 10:30pm-12am is very bad for me. Has anyone else experienced these problems recently?

Are you only getting trouble at certain times (such as when the subchannels are showing a lot of motion-rich video)?

With their HD channel plus the several subchannels, they're trying to shove a watermelon through a garden hose. Further compounding the problem, I suspect that lower-end tuner processors can't make up for the heavy compression, which is why I quit trying to watch anything on 9 on my little 19" Philips HD LCD.

rdn

09-17-08, 01:46 PM

organikeith

09-17-08, 03:26 PM

finlay648

09-17-08, 11:15 PM

Are you only getting trouble at certain times (such as when the subchannels are showing a lot of motion-rich video)?

With their HD channel plus the several subchannels, they're trying to shove a watermelon through a garden hose. Further compounding the problem, I suspect that lower-end tuner processors can't make up for the heavy compression, which is why I quit trying to watch anything on 9 on my little 19" Philips HD LCD.

Only with certain programs but they tend to be fairly static pictures. I figured that when one subchannel was dropped that some of the lip sync and freeze problems would disappear. Most programs seem to be OK but some are terrible.

After I posted last night I thought I'd check to see how my converter boxes deal with the signal and to my surprise I found that they had no lip sync or freeze problems. So I'm beginning to suspect that my TV (Vizio VU42L FDHDTV10A) has a problem decoding the PBS HD signals. I haven't had any problems with any of the other Seattle HD programming so I assumed that the problem was with the PBS HD signal. Is there any definitive way to determine if the TV has a problem?

Looks like I might have to dump this TV and get a new better quality TV.

DanKurts

09-18-08, 01:57 AM

Hi folks,
I recently bought an HDTV and thought I should see what I could get over the air.
I found a video online and built an indoor antenna out of coathangers w/chicken wire shield on the back (that looks like a homemade db4) and am able to get 10 digital channels (28.1-4, 33.1-4 and something in the 45's) as well as some analogs in Puyallup. I am on the 2700 block of Linden Lane in the valley.
I am either thinking of building it bigger (with more bowties) like the db8, or getting a rooftop medium or large directional antenna. ($$$)
Also, I heard that the crossovers shouldn't be touching, so I pulled them about an inch apart and lost my signal (even though they were still touching the bowties completely) so I smooshed them back together to make sure they were touching and my signal got better! (picked up 3 more dig channels)

I am hoping to be able to pick up FOX OTA at some point so I can drop cable during the football season. =D
Any thoughts? Anyone live in Puyallup valley and picking up FOX?
I am considering the Channelmaster 3018 and doing a self install (even though it looks like a pretty big antenna)

Any help would be great!
Thanks!

organikeith
You're in a very bad area for Seattle channels. Edgewood is in the way. CH13 should work fine, though, if you point the antenna NW. It's also the direction for CH28, give or take. The 33, 45, 51 ch's come form the NE, so they should work as well. Depending on your needs, and timing, you could just point it NW and get 13 & 28. Later, in February, it might still work fine. Can't tell right now because ch13 isn't transmitting on ch13 (they're actually on ch18 now). I wouldn't use a rotor, kind of overkill. Two antenna's and a switch (you can get a cheap remote one from Rat Shack) is cheaper and no moving parts.
I would recommend a 4221 Channel Master. It's similar to the homemade one, but will work better. The fact you're working better by disabling some of your antenna tells me the 4221 should work fine.
What are you using for a tuner?
Dan

DanKurts

09-18-08, 02:12 AM

Only with certain programs but they tend to be fairly static pictures. I figured that when one subchannel was dropped that some of the lip sync and freeze problems would disappear. Most programs seem to be OK but some are terrible.

After I posted last night I thought I'd check to see how my converter boxes deal with the signal and to my surprise I found that they had no lip sync or freeze problems. So I'm beginning to suspect that my TV (Vizio VU42L FDHDTV10A) has a problem decoding the PBS HD signals. I haven't had any problems with any of the other Seattle HD programming so I assumed that the problem was with the PBS HD signal. Is there any definitive way to determine if the TV has a problem?

Looks like I might have to dump this TV and get a new better quality TV.

finlay648
Every channel comes in to your tuner differently, so you can't assume all channels should work the same. Some tuners are better with weak signals, or ugly signals chopped up by trees, etc. Some handle the lip sync problem better, as well, again depending on how their designed. It is very maddening. KING used to have the problem on analog as well as HD. Fortunately, tuner designs are getting better, and even some A/V receivers have adjustments for the problem.
You could try a Samsung H260 as a tuner and feed your Vizio with that. Far cheaper than replacing the TV. Mine doesn't have that problem.
Dan

organikeith

09-18-08, 02:23 PM

organikeith
You're in a very bad area for Seattle channels. Edgewood is in the way. CH13 should work fine, though, if you point the antenna NW. It's also the direction for CH28, give or take. The 33, 45, 51 ch's come form the NE, so they should work as well. Depending on your needs, and timing, you could just point it NW and get 13 & 28. Later, in February, it might still work fine. Can't tell right now because ch13 isn't transmitting on ch13 (they're actually on ch18 now). I wouldn't use a rotor, kind of overkill. Two antenna's and a switch (you can get a cheap remote one from Rat Shack) is cheaper and no moving parts.
I would recommend a 4221 Channel Master. It's similar to the homemade one, but will work better. The fact you're working better by disabling some of your antenna tells me the 4221 should work fine.
What are you using for a tuner?
Dan

Thanks Dan. I appreciate all the input.
I am using the tuner in the back of my HD TV, (I also have a Hauppagge 2250 WINTV, and plan on experimenting with that as well.
Here are the channels I am currently picking with the 4 bowtie coathanger antenna (indoor) with the antenna facing north 16, 20, 28 (1-2-3), 33 (1-2-3-4), 45 (1,2,3) sometimes, and 54.
.
I moved it to my sons room on the west side of the house and picked up 13, 13-1, 13-2, but lost my other digital channels.
My questions are if I built an identical antenna and put one on the west side of the house and used a combiner (and the same amount of cable for each)
Would that work? I am also considering making an 8 bowtie this weekend and maybe even two and combining those. :D Or is using a switch the best way to go?
Or can I buy and antenna for the roof and combine that with an indoor (the indoor facing north and the rooftop facing west)

organikeith

09-18-08, 04:06 PM

DanKurts

09-19-08, 02:57 AM

My other question is will putting an antenna on the roof another 10-15 feet up make a difference(in getting the Seattle channels) or would it be a waste of effort and $$$ with Edgewood being right there?

organikeith
Sorry, but you would have to go up 350 to 450 feet, give or take a bunch.
CH13 should work, though. Just get it outside above your roof a bit and pointed NW. If you have a clear view in that direction, you could even mount it on the side of your house.
Dan

organikeith

09-19-08, 04:47 PM

Ouch! I guess I will just have live with where I am. I did get the digital channels in the 20's after I threw the coathanger antenna on the roof though, it was nice to get a few more. Thanks for the help!

WatchinInTheNW

09-19-08, 06:46 PM

quarque

09-19-08, 09:26 PM

I am in South Tacoma and am considering ditching cable for OTA broadcasts. I have an older Hitachi projection HD-Ready TV and a tuner on order. In the garage I found an old big metal antenna that once was installed at the house (the house had never had cable run to it when I moved in) so I'm prety close to being ready to go.

I am wondering if any forum readers are in the South End section of Tacoma and are using an antenna to pick up HD signals? How good are they? I've only used rabbit ears before with limited success for a few years before finally giving in and getting cable, and that was never with HD. I think one of the only channels I couldn't get well with the rabbit ears was 13, so I'm thinking they should be really good with the rooftop (except for maybe 13). Or maybe I don't even need the rooftop and could go with a really good indoor antenna? (running cable would not be fun)

I am just off 70th Street and Pacific Avenue.

Thank you!!

You're in a pretty good spot (elev. 400 ft.) in terms of terrain - can't speak for trees or buildings in the way. A rooftop antenna should be able to pull in most everything if you have nothing major to the NNE. Aim about 10 degrees east of true north. Go as high up as practical with your antenna unless you need to shoot underneath a dense tree canopy. I would experiment with location before you "nail it down."

DanKurts

09-20-08, 12:12 AM

I am in South Tacoma and am considering ditching cable for OTA broadcasts. I have an older Hitachi projection HD-Ready TV and a tuner on order. In the garage I found an old big metal antenna that once was installed at the house (the house had never had cable run to it when I moved in) so I'm prety close to being ready to go.

I am wondering if any forum readers are in the South End section of Tacoma and are using an antenna to pick up HD signals? How good are they? I've only used rabbit ears before with limited success for a few years before finally giving in and getting cable, and that was never with HD. I think one of the only channels I couldn't get well with the rabbit ears was 13, so I'm thinking they should be really good with the rooftop (except for maybe 13). Or maybe I don't even need the rooftop and could go with a really good indoor antenna? (running cable would not be fun)

I am just off 70th Street and Pacific Avenue.

Thank you!!

WatchinInTheNW
You're in a pretty good spot. The antenna will need to be outside.
I would suggest a 4221 Channel Master. I've had pretty good luck with it in your area. Be to place it where it can see basically north, and there are no houses or big trees in the way. You may need a preamplifier, but try it without, first. Ch9, 11 & 13 will be changing in Feb and a different antenna would normally be needed. However, from the good results I got during ch11's test, I think you;ll be okay. If not, easy to add a VHF antenna to the mix. Don't use the old one. Old antennas don't work well when moved around, they can get very intermittent. The 4221 is cheap, so start fresh.
Dan

DanKurts

09-20-08, 12:14 AM

WatchinInTheNW

09-21-08, 03:45 PM

Thank you both for responding and for the tips!

I will definitely purchase the channelmaster you recommended. I do have some large-ish trees in my neighborhood, but they aren't too dense, so hopefully that won't be a problem!

kallen

09-22-08, 11:14 AM

DanKurts

09-23-08, 01:51 AM

I'm finding a lot of useful information on this site. I'm new to DTV after purchasing a new Panny 58PZ800U. I've got a RS VU-120XR antenna with a newly added HDP-269 preamp installed in the attic. I'm located at 352nd Street and 56th Ave. in the 98001 zip code. The antenna is resting across the trusses. I seem to get decent reception except I can't get the KING-DT or KCPQ-DT. I don't understand why I'm unable to get KING-DT, since I get KONG-DT, KOMO-DT and KIRO-DT just fine. TVFOOL shows KCPQ off to the west, so I can better understand no receiving that, although I can get the analog signal. Is there a better antenna choice for me? I've been looking the Winegard HD7696P and this may be easier to manauver between the trusses in the attic. The 120xr is unwieldy in the attic. But post transition KCPQ and PBS look to be VHF. Would a single antenna pick both the UHF and VHF at 50+deg of separation or should I look for a UHF only and hi-VHF only antennas?

kallen
The fact you're getting anything is amazing. Every channel is on a different frequency, obviously, but UHF is affected more than VHF and the higher you get, the worse (KCPQ is about 495mhz, KONG is about 577mhz, KING about 675mhz, huge difference). Add in the fact you're in a lousy spout, probably a 150ft below the signal, and you can appreciate how well the Panasonic is doing. There's a gazillion trees in your way to the north and west, for about 5 miles, clear up to 288th and TJ high.

Get the antenna out of the attic. Try to find a sweet spot for the best Seattle channels. Don't sweat ch13 now. The changeover isn't that far off. If it doesn't come in later,and everything else is good, you can always add on or play with that later. True, your antenna reception path is narrow and ch13 is way off axis. The big elements on the antenna are for ch13 and lower, and might have enough width to pull in 9, 11 & 13. No way to tell until they flip the switch.

The bad part. All those miles of Fir trees are going to get bigger (duhhhh!) and you may loose a channel or two, specially in the wind. Don't be surprised if you have to move it again down the road. Patience will win out though. Just remember where the good spots are for each channel, and it will help you sort it all out later when things change.
Dan

Spike89

09-23-08, 11:34 AM

I've got a RS VU-120XR antenna with a newly added HDP-269 preamp installed in the attic. <snip> I can't get the KING-DT or KCPQ-DT.

Try taking the preamp out and see if KING comes in.

Kelly From KOMO

09-25-08, 11:20 AM

Agreed. They may also want to check and see if the insulation in his attic has the foil backing. Many of the new homes use foil on one side of the insulation mats vs. paper. Foil backed insulation can really cause problems with an attic antenna in the form of multipath.

DrCrawn

09-25-08, 03:02 PM

Anyone else notice the KIRO-DT picture jumping? Every so often the entire frame jumps slightly. I noticed it yesterday and today. It's happening OTA as well as via Comcrap. ???

kallen

09-25-08, 09:31 PM

Thanks for all the input. Try taking the preamp out and see if KING comes in. I took off the preamp and still no KING-DT. The signal strength of the others decreased and I lost all PBS channels. For whatever reason when I reconnected the preamp, I regained the lost PBS, but I also had KCPQ-DT showing, but with a 34% signal strength. Still no KING-DT though. Don't the anolog and digital KING broadcast from the same spot? I don't understand why the signal strength show as 0% for KING-DT.

They may also want to check and see if the insulation in his attic has the foil backing. The attic has blown in insulation, no foil backed insulation.

rdn

09-26-08, 12:40 AM

DanKurts

09-26-08, 01:26 AM

Thanks for all the input. I took off the preamp and still no KING-DT. The signal strength of the others decreased and I lost all PBS channels. For whatever reason when I reconnected the preamp, I regained the lost PBS, but I also had KCPQ-DT showing, but with a 34% signal strength. Still no KING-DT though. Don't the anolog and digital KING broadcast from the same spot? I don't understand why the signal strength show as 0% for KING-DT.

The attic has blown in insulation, no foil backed insulation.

kallen
KING analog is about 77mhz, KING digital is about 675mhz. The higher the frequency, the more line of sight it is (the less the signal will follow the terrain and go down in valleys or over hills). Digital has to be above a certain level of strength and be readable for the decoder to lock on. Analog can be very weak, ghosty, snowy and still be seen and heard. The KING digital antenna is only 75ft or so down the east side of the tower. Not an issue for your direction.
You could actually have the same amount/level of ch5 signal as those you get okay. If the trees have affected it enough, though, it will not lock on.
Your antenna could be very weak at the frequency, you could have a bad balun, or your cable could have been damaged or kinked enough to look okay and still cause a "hole" in the signal. Finally, your antenna location in the attic could be in just the right spot to block a lot more of ch5 than the others.
Try getting it outside. Weather is going to be great on Sunday, take advantage. Then let us know the results.
Dan

organikeith

09-29-08, 11:38 AM

DanKurts

09-29-08, 11:15 PM

no, it was weird, 13 (digital) didn't come in at all. I'll probably try again as I picked up an antenna (VHF/Yagi combo?) off a friends house. I'll be comparing the reception between that at and the coathanger antenna.

I am thinking about getting the CM 4221 HD when it comes out in October. Looks cool. Any recommendations on a tuner? (the one in my tv works good, but it would be nice to have a spare if it will pull in weak signals better)

Thanks!
-Keith

Keith
That antenna is the same as a regular 4221. Just comes with a cable. Regular 4221 has been around for decades, works well in the right locations. You can buy the cable at Home Depot or Fry's, and Rat Shack has them premade, various lengths.
The CM7000 for standard def works very well, bit better than the Zenith 901.
For HD, Samsung H260.
Dan

Whidbey

09-29-08, 11:47 PM

allen98311

09-30-08, 12:56 AM

Any thoughts on the ClearStram 2 antenna?
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=C2

organikeith

09-30-08, 11:00 AM

Thanks again for the info Dan.. !
Reviews looks good on the Samsung H260. I'll probably get one as well as the 4221 in the next month or two.
I'll be tinkering with freebie antennas this week and next, weather permiting, to see how things compare. One of the freebies I will be trying looks like a channel master 3016. The other I haven't seen yet.
I'll let you know how it goes..

-Keith

buckfalfa

09-30-08, 12:56 PM

Kelly From KOMO

09-30-08, 05:15 PM

Here's my set-up. Single antenna feeds one two-way splitter. One feed goes to garage TV, one goes to living room TV. Living room feed is split once more to feed two tuners. The splitters I use are cheap no-name ones, may have come with an old DirecTV tuner I bought years ago... not sure where they came from or what they are rated for. I'd like to add a feed for upstairs, so I want a total of four feeds.

Questions for the experts: Should I get a four way splitter and have a separate cable for each feed? Or, is it OK to get a three way splitter and split the feed again in the living room to feed the two tuners in there?
Who makes the best rated splitters? What numbers/ratings should I be looking for in a splitter?

Any suggestions, hints or pokes in the right direction appreciated.

The wrong or incorrectly installed passive splitters can have pretty extreme effects on the reception of Over-The-Air DTV signals. Depending on the type of antenna you're using, location to the stations you're trying to receive in relation to your location, objects in the way, etc., sometimes splitting twice can work. Even with a good quality multi-splitter, your signal level will be reduced 3dB, or 50% with each split. If the signal is low to begin with, then the level may be too low for a receiver to decode.

Old splitters typically only have bandwidth out to 450 or 900 Mhz., and are unacceptable for use with UHF DTV signals. What you need is a good splitter with high frequency response to 2Ghz. Best Buy and other electronics stores sell decent splitters for around $10 each. Radio Shack ones aren't so great.

Coaxial cable type and condition of the cable is important too. Old RG59 cable previously installed by cable companies in homes can create problems, as it was never intended to carry the bandwidth over a large frequency range occupied by DTV signals.

For more suggestions and information about what you need, check out my blog at http://www.dtvrules.com. Look for the title: "It's All About The Bandwidth". There is a great deal of talk there about splitter choices and installation help.

Budget_HT

09-30-08, 10:44 PM

DanKurts

10-01-08, 01:39 AM

Any thoughts on the ClearStram 2 antenna?
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=C2

allen98311
Well, just when you thought you had seen them all.........

Interesting design. Only way to tell how well it works is try it out. As for the claim it gets some high band VHF, remains to be seen. The 4221 does the same, but was never designed for it. Bet they just tried it out for grins and it works somewhat. Hard to tell. Have to admit, I've seen some awfully ugly, beat up rusty guys do amazing things. Price is okay, for retail, probably cost $5 to make, like most overpriced antennas. According to the specs, not as wide in reception as the 4221. Can be a bad or good thing, depending on your location.
I do know the Sharp Shooter, a grossly overrated antenna, has a somewhat similar design behind the square plastic cover. Looks like two spirals going out from a center, with a screen backplane. Tried it for months against others, not impressed.

Again, can't really tell if the ClearStream2 is a better mousetrap until you try it under some difficult conditions.

Dan

DanKurts

10-01-08, 02:34 AM

Hello again folks!

I'm still struggling with reception for King5 out in Duvall (Miller Street). I've split the signal from my Rat Shack yagi to my CM7777 pre-amp with spotty results. I've tried installing a CM4221 and 4228 and have seen little to no improvement in the signal from King5. All other stations are doing fine for me, it's just that darned NBC!

I wonder if angling my antenna "up" might help, but can't figure out how to do that with the current mast clamp (just a simple u-shaped clamp on the old antenna.)

I've been looking at the Antennas Direct 43XG as a possible improvement over my current antenna. SolidSignal has recommended the Antennas Direct C4 clearstream for my location (it's supposedly got "new technology" that makes HD signals better- hmmmm).

Anyone had experience with either model, or have a recommendation for the be-all-end-all of UHF yagi fringe antennas?

Thanks for all of your help!

PS- Anyone heard if we can expect a stronger King5 digital signal following the changeover?

PPS- THIS one looks really promising- the ChannelMaster 2020. Thoughts?
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM-2020&main_cat=03&source=googleps

buckfalfa
Well, welcome to KING TV's dead zone !
When you look at the transmitting pattern, viewed from over the top of the tower, it looks like a figure 8, with all the power going North-South, almost zip East-West. From what the engineer there tells me, they're keeping this same pattern and power. It won't make much difference to you, as the antenna will only move up about 75 feet or so, if they keep it the same as the VHF. It's already on the east side of the tower.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18954&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.915&p30=0.820&p40=0.709&p50=0.597&p60=0.501&p70=0.432&p80=0.393&p90=0.381&p100=0.393&p110=0.432&p120=0.501&p130=0.597&p140=0.709&p150=0.820&p160=0.915&p170=0.978&p180=1.000&p190=0.978&p200=0.915&p210=0.820&p220=0.709&p230=0.597&p240=0.501&p250=0.432&p260=0.393&p270=0.381&p280=0.393&p290=0.432&p300=0.501&p310=0.597&p320=0.709&p330=0.820&p340=0.915&p350=0.978&p360=1.000&

I always see a much weaker KING on the Eastside. Thing is, if you get just above a minimum amount, and it's clean, it can still show 70-90%, work fine and you would never know. I've had the best luck in Duvall with a big yagi when signal got ugly. The 4248 and the CM7775, or 7777, worked best. What you can't see is Union Hill, across the valley, is in your way. Has mega trees and chops up the signal. You can actually have a fair signal, level wise, but your tuner just won't lock. Higher on the hill, above 275th, you can get away with 4221 or 4228's. I always needed a preamp. I'm sure some people have good tuners, are in the right "golden" spot and get away without them, but I would bet signal is right at minimums. Below 275th, most surveys were not good at all. You might find the right sweet spot, but of the few dozen I tried, only one was good enough for all channels. Above that street, most locations were decent.
Move up the hill !!

As for splitting the signal, NEVER put a splitter between the preamp and the power supply. After the power supply is fine.
I never saw any improvement in angling the antenna unless I was very, very close to the towers, like on Queen Annne Hill.

As for the 43XG, Blake, and the other "miracle" antennas from Europe, I tried several of each years ago, not impressed. Worked fair, but Channel Master 4248 and Antenna Craft MXU59's for yagi's worked better. Also, the build quality was very cheesey. Not that Channel Master are works of art, far from it. They are fairly stout, though, once assembled and installed properly. The Euro ones were flimsy, even when mounted. One exception was the Televes, very well built, but only average performer. Most are way overpriced, and their claims of gain, like ALL antenna manufacturers, is hard to verify, as there are no standards for measuring.

The 2020 antenna just doesn't have enough UHF meat on it for your location.

Location, not just direction, is very fussy in Duvall. You could move it a foot left, right, lower or higher and it could make or break your problem. You have the right preamp, just get a bigger UHF yagi. You might even end up with one for KING and use the other for the rest. You could tie them together with a Jointenna (one of the few channels you can do that with, the other being ch13, but that's going to VHF in Feb).

Dan

buckfalfa

10-01-08, 12:28 PM

Wow, as always a wealth of absolutely great information, Dan! Do you have a donations page or something, I really feel like a owe you for all the good advice.

My splitter is before the CM7777, separating my combined uhf\vhf antenna out so that I can plug each one into the amplifier (rather than using the "combined" amp option.)

I'm going to order the MXU59 and see how that does. I also like your idea about the jointenna: I forgot to mention that I can "aim" right for KING5 and do pretty well at the expense of 13, 7, and 9.

That's pretty sad news about King's broadcast signal.

You're my hero, Dan. I will post back with results as my experiment continues!

PS- Are you sure the 2020 wouldn't be an OK choice? It looks like it has just as many UHF elements as the old 4248, along with the high-band VHF elements...

PPS- SolidSignal didn't have the MXU59 in stock. I'm giving the 91XG a go and crossing my fingers!

buckfalfa

10-02-08, 11:53 AM

I'm looking also at the post-transition physical channel positions and it looks like 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 are going to be highband vhf (physical channels 9, 11, and 13 respectively.)

Any recommendations for an excellent, cheap high-band VHF antenna? I'd love to retire my rat shack monstrosity and go with a smaller, high-band only VHF antenna in addition to my UHF yagi.

tschall

10-02-08, 01:08 PM

KSTW has had their VHF channel 11 signal on for testing twice now. It appears to perform well. Their next test is Monday, October 27th from 2 - 4 AM. We (KCTS) plan on returning to our physical VHF channel 9 post transition as well. Demolition of portions of our existing analog transmitter begins on monday October 6th in order to make room for the new digital transmitter. KCPQ also plans to return to their physical VHF channel 13 post transition. I do not know what their plans are for testing.

rdn

10-02-08, 04:31 PM

Directv switched their pickup for locals from analog to digital overnight. It appears to have gone well, although some people will get confused by the KCTS9-HD bug :)

The crawl during the 7 AM news on KONG got cut off at the edges, however (not yet center-cut safe). I looked briefly at the KING noon news and didn't see any crawl, so they may have pulled it.

organikeith

10-02-08, 04:31 PM

organikeith

10-02-08, 04:34 PM

mike84

10-02-08, 07:50 PM

Komo 4 digital transmitter will be off air on 10/3/08 for maintence. From 6 a.m. until completed. It will affect over the air viewers only, Not cable/sat. providers.

Mike

DanKurts

10-02-08, 08:13 PM

Komo 4 digital transmitter will be off air on 10/3/08 for maintence. From 6 a.m. until completed. It will affect over the air viewers only, Not cable/sat. providers.

Mike

I saw this on KOMO just now as well. I have to laugh at the timing. For those of us who have braved the elements to put up antennas, the weather reports are a concern. Weather has been great all month, and just when they go up there, it goes south with the sun! Sorry guys. I really, really feel for ya.......
A picture for those wondering what it's like.
Dan

DanKurts

10-02-08, 08:17 PM

tap

10-02-08, 11:53 PM

My channel master box has the current time and schedules an hour early for most stations. KOMO, KING, KIRO and KCTS are wrong, while KCPQ is correct.

I wonder if this is a bug in the CM software a problem with the stations? I looked at the digital data and the problem stations are sending a system time table that indicates daylight savings time ends on the 2nd at 2:00 AM. Well, it does end on the second, the second of next month that is. KCPQ's data doesn't say daylight savings is ending this month. I looked up the ATSC spec for daylight savings time (A/65C (http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf) Annex A) and it's not clear what's right. It seems to come down to when it says, "When the transition out of daylight savings time is within less than one month, ..." Daylight savings is ending in less than 31 days, but not this month. Does that mean it's "within less than one month?" Look like the CM software and most local stations don't agree. Anyone else's converters getting the time wrong too?

Budget_HT

10-03-08, 12:16 AM

Sweet!
Thanks Budget_HT Dave, I have a Mclendons' down the street from my house.
I'll have to check there..
My only concern is when FOX digital moves from 18 to 13, will a UHF antenna like the 4221 be able to pick up VHF 13 (and down to 7?).
We may just have to wait and see..or do any of you guys have dual antenna solutions?
Good thing Antennas are relatively cheap.
-Keith

Keith,

If your situation is anything like mine, I think you might be pleasantly surprised. I am able to receive about the same quality reception of analog channels 7, 9, 11 and 13 with my 4221 as I do with my VHF antenna. I don't have any measuring equipment, but none of those channels are "snowy." Channels 4 and 5 are definitely weaker and snowy using the 4221, as one might expect. Your experience won't be exactly the same, but the opportunity is there with the 4221 IMHO. Of course, digital reception behaves differently than analog.

My analog reception here has never been good with the VHF antenna. My digital reception is mostly reliable.

rdn

10-03-08, 12:30 AM

tschall

10-03-08, 09:41 AM

tschall
So the VHF analog only will be off the air Monday? For how long? And 41 will still be on, right?
Thanks for the heads up.
Dan

The analog will not be off the air at all. It will be reduced to half power operation until the transition is complete. Channel 41's operation should remain unaffected.

rdn

10-03-08, 11:34 AM

Komo 4 digital transmitter will be off air on 10/3/08 for maintence. From 6 a.m. until completed. It will affect over the air viewers only, Not cable/sat. providers.

Mike

It apparently does affect satellite. KOMO is dark on Directv (HD, not SD) right now (8:33 a.m.) Since the digital signal is used for both, I have no idea why one would be affected and not the other. I can't receive KOMO OTA, so don't know if that is back on.

pastiche

10-05-08, 04:46 PM

I was channel surfing last night and caught the end of a show on KCTS about the digital transition. It featured two of this board's contributors: (formerly) KOMO's Don Wilkinson and KCTS's tschall. Good show, guys.

Whidbey

10-05-08, 08:29 PM

Old splitters typically only have bandwidth out to 450 or 900 Mhz., and are unacceptable for use with UHF DTV signals. What you need is a good splitter with high frequency response to 2Ghz. Best Buy and other electronics stores sell decent splitters for around $10 each. Radio Shack ones aren't so great.
For more suggestions and information about what you need, check out my blog at http://www.dtvrules.com. Look for the title: "It's All About The Bandwidth". There is a great deal of talk there about splitter choices and installation help.

Kelly - Thanks for the advice. I happened to be in K-Mart the other day and found a "Philips 2-Way Digital Splitter" which was rated for 5 - 2300 Mhz, so I decided to give it a try. Since installing it, it's tough to determine for sure if my signal has improved since there are so many other contributing factors, but I can say that I've had less drop-outs on Ch 5.

Kelly From KOMO

10-06-08, 09:13 PM

Hi Whidbey,

You're welcome! Indeed many times there isn't only one thing, but the combination of location, antenna type/aiming, and then having a big enough pipe to send the captured signals around where you can enjoy them.

rdn

10-07-08, 11:49 AM

Kelly,
What would be the issue with a 900 MHz-rated splitter and DTV? The max UHF frequency is well below that and the highest channel used in the Seattle area is 50 (KUNS) at 686-692 MHz.

Kelly From KOMO

10-07-08, 08:20 PM

Kelly,
What would be the issue with a 900 MHz-rated splitter and DTV? The max UHF frequency is well below that and the highest channel used in the Seattle area is 50 (KUNS) at 686-692 MHz.

Hi RDN,

When you sweep a 900Mhz. passive or active, (amplified), splitter with a spectrum or RF network analyzer, you'll find that the high frequency roll-off begins actually about 550 through 700Mhz. For example, a commonly used cable splitter by Jerrold was measured 2.5dB down or around 40% at 600Mhz, and 12dB or roughly 200% loss at 750Mhz. Also if you look at passband comparisons between an average inexpensive 900Mhz splitter and a high quality 2-2.5Ghz one, you'll find peaks and valleys in the spectrum between 250 and 660Mhz with the 900Mhz spliter. Some of these bandwidth valleys can clip portions of the UHF DTV spectum in the 1.5-3.5dB range. Remember that DTV ATSC transmissions are 6Mhz wide for each station. In order to get full and reliable reception, the full 6Mhz must be received. The flatter the response across the full 6Mhz. channel, the more reliable the reception. Think of it as adding headroom.

Another good hint in order to provide proper bandwidth at all ports of a passive splitter, each port must be terminated with a 75 ohm load. Leaving open, or unterminated ports, will cause an impedance shift which could create bandwidth or equalization peaks and valleys or extra loss at each split. That's why I recommend only using a splitter with the number of ports you need, or buying some 75 ohm termination resistors and terminating the unused ports.

I hope that helps!

zyland

10-07-08, 08:39 PM

At least for now. "Jewelry TV/Shop @ Home" has been replaced by "America One" on KHCV 45-1. So if you like Fishing Shows or Canadian Football, you're all set :)

rdn

10-08-08, 01:38 AM

Hi RDN,

When you sweep a 900Mhz. passive or active, (amplified), splitter with a spectrum or RF network analyzer, you'll find that the high frequency roll-off begins actually about 550 through 700Mhz. For example, a commonly used cable splitter by Jerrold was measured 2.5dB down or around 40% at 600Mhz, and 12dB or roughly 200% loss at 750Mhz. Also if you look at passband comparisons between an average inexpensive 900Mhz splitter and a high quality 2-2.5Ghz one, you'll find peaks and valleys in the spectrum between 250 and 660Mhz with the 900Mhz spliter. Some of these bandwidth valleys can clip portions of the UHF DTV spectum in the 1.5-3.5dB range. Remember that DTV ATSC transmissions are 6Mhz wide for each station. In order to get full and reliable reception, the full 6Mhz must be received. The flatter the response across the full 6Mhz. channel, the more reliable the reception. Think of it as adding headroom.

Another good hint in order to provide proper bandwidth at all ports of a passive splitter, each port must be terminated with a 75 ohm load. Leaving open, or unterminated ports, will cause an impedance shift which could create bandwidth or equalization peaks and valleys or extra loss at each split. That's why I recommend only using a splitter with the number of ports you need, or buying some 75 ohm termination resistors and terminating the unused ports.

I hope that helps!

OK, I guess some consumer electronics isn't specified the same as commercial/military equipment (for bandwidth, 3 dB down at the specified band edges). In fact, looking at a few web sites, not much is specified at all in many cases. Of course, few customers are going to sweep it with a network analyzer.

Thanks.

Whidbey

10-08-08, 11:42 PM

From TV Week:

NBC Shutting Down Weather Plus
By Michele Greppi

The sun is setting on NBC Weather Plus, the 4-year-old digital joint venture between NBC and affiliated local stations, which programmed the 24/7 local weather service on their digital channels. The service was one of the first digital projects conceived as a way for a network and its affiliates to work together to create new revenue streams.

NBC News President Steve Capus informed the on- and off-air Weather Plus staff headquartered at CNBC facilities in Englewood, N.J., Tuesday morning that the operation would be phased out in stages through the end of the year.

Mr. Capus said the NBC affiliates board had notified the network last week of its desire to disband the partnership in which the 10 NBC owned-and-operated stations and approximately 80 affiliates have been participating. Only the NBC O&Os had signed on for the online aspect of Weather Plus. “That’s been, quite frankly, frustrating on our part,” Mr. Capus told TelevisionWeek Tuesday.

He said that jointly owned but locally focused Weather Plus would have come to this end even without NBC Universal’s acquisition of a minority stake in The Weather Channel, for which NBC News will assume programming responsibility and with which NBC News already is sharing some content and talent. NBC has been plugging The Weather Channel after some “Today” show weather segments.

“This is a tough business,” Mr. Capus said. “It has not been a profitable business.”

“It’s a very difficult business climate these days. You can’t ignore those realities,” Mr. Capus said. “Even if the Weather Channel acquisition hadn’t happened, this was a business that was challenged. We were going to have to face that at some point.”

Mr. Capus’ news division last year assumed responsibility for Weather Plus after former NBC-owned stations chief Jay Ireland returned to parent company General Electric. Mr. Capus said he reminded the affiliates then that the news division was facing “real financial pressures.”

Although such Weather Plus talent as Jeff Ranieri had become nationally known through appearances on NBC News programs and MSNBC, the fact that about half of the affiliates did not participate in Weather Plus stymied any thought of national advertising sales and meant all ad support had to come only from local markets.

There was no immediate comment from NBC affiliates board Chairman Michael Fiorile, who is vice chairman and CEO of Dispatch Broadcast Group.

However, the general manager of one of the first affiliates to sign up for Weather Plus, who declined to be identified, said he is eager for Weather Plus to go away.

dom98106

10-09-08, 02:36 AM

Is anyone else having problems getting the ION channel 33-1?

I've been getting it pretty clear but all of a sudden now I get no signal what so ever. Is their tower damaged or what?

I'm in the 98106 Seattle area -off of Delridge Ave.

DanKurts

10-09-08, 03:00 AM

dom98106

10-09-08, 03:05 AM

Thanks for the quick reply Dan!

Guess for whatever reason then I wont be getting it cause I tried and tried with no luck -bummer.

finlay648

10-09-08, 03:30 AM

Thanks for the quick reply Dan!

Guess for whatever reason then I wont be getting it cause I tried and tried with no luck -bummer.

I had a problem with ION last spring for two weeks (no signal) then as suddenly as it disappeared it reappeared and has been fairly reliable since then. You may have some transient reception issue like I had so keep checking ION. Good luck.

dom98106

10-09-08, 03:42 AM

I had a problem with ION last spring for two weeks (no signal) then as suddenly as it disappeared it reappeared and has been fairly reliable since then. You may have some transient reception issue like I had so keep checking ION. Good luck.

Well at least there's some hope -THANKS! :)

rdn

10-09-08, 10:51 AM

From TV Week:

I'm sorry to see Weather Plus go away, as I check it a few times each day. Perhaps KING could replace it with NWCN, which you cannot receive without cable. I sent an email suggesting that they put NWCN on KONG 16.2 (which is just a 4:3 480i clone of 16.1), but didn't receive any replies.

Rico66

10-09-08, 12:52 PM

I'm sorry to see Weather Plus go away, as I check it a few times each day. Perhaps KING could replace it with NWCN, which you cannot receive without cable. I sent an email suggesting that they put NWCN on KONG 16.2 (which is just a 4:3 480i clone of 16.1), but didn't receive any replies.

That's great news to me. That sub channel just takes bandwidth. Hopefully it doesn't get replaced by another one. We might finally see less macro blocking on NBC's sports programming...

But yes, replacing 16.2 with a more useful sub channel sounds like a good option.

Jake24

10-09-08, 05:58 PM

I installed a CM 8 bay last year, the only stations where Channel 13 and 22 and some other east side station. At night some times channels 4,5,7,11 and 16 come and go.

The last two months channels 4,5,7,11,and 16 are coming in good especially Channel 4
Anyone know that happen as I didn't change anything.

organikeith

10-09-08, 09:01 PM

Keith,

If your situation is anything like mine, I think you might be pleasantly surprised. I am able to receive about the same quality reception of analog channels 7, 9, 11 and 13 with my 4221 as I do with my VHF antenna. I don't have any measuring equipment, but none of those channels are "snowy." Channels 4 and 5 are definitely weaker and snowy using the 4221, as one might expect. Your experience won't be exactly the same, but the opportunity is there with the 4221 IMHO. Of course, digital reception behaves differently than analog.

My analog reception here has never been good with the VHF antenna. My digital reception is mostly reliable.

Update,
Well I swung by Mclendons and picked up a CM 4221. I hooked it up in the same spot as I had my youtube coathanger antenna (indoors in the attic) and actually got the exact same results! 3 Cheers for the coathanger! Anyhoo, I hooked up the CM 4221 on the house with a 10 ft mast and am now able to get Fox 13.1 & 13.2 which is what I was hoping for as well as CW 11.1 (bonus), but I lost the Ion channels!? :eek: So I decided to use a splitter/combiner to blend the CM 4221 signal and the home made coathanger antenna and bingo, Ion tuned back in.:)
Thanks for all your help...guys.
In the future, I may use try combining an old CM 3016 with the 4221 on the same mast and eliminate the indoor antenna. Anybody have experience doing that? Or would an amplifier like the CM 7777 be the ticket?

Falcon_77

10-13-08, 11:26 AM

Commissioner Adelstein to Visit Portland, Yakima, Spokane and Seattle for DTV Outreach

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-286023A1.pdf

SEATTLE
WHEN: October 23, 2-3:30 PM
WHERE: Seattle Public Library
Central Library
1000 Fourth Ave.
Seattle, WA 98104

WHEN: October 23, 6-7:30 PM
WHERE: Asian Counseling & Referral Service
3639 Martin Luther King Jr. Way S
Seattle, WA 98144

1337Rolla

10-14-08, 07:38 PM

DanKurts

10-15-08, 01:32 AM

ION seems to be acting up for me today.. earlier today it was totally dead, now the signal drops out for no reason..

and a question.. how far south can you get 13.1? I'm in federal way (TJ area) and I have an older winegard setup.. separate uhf and vhf antennas hooked together in the attic, each one is roughly 12 feet long. Supposedly it is rated at 150 miles analog reception. I get KCPQ analog with perfect picture quality, 13.1 with 0 signal strength according to my tv.

I also have two 5db gain amps on it.

1337Rolla
Distance is only one factor in reception. Cable, the coupler between the antenna's, the antenna's themselves, location, terrain, your amplifiers, etc. Line of sight, ch13 is probably good for at least 90 miles, give or take. When they switch to VHF in Feb, it might go a bit farther, hard to say. The "mileage rating" is usually pretty useless, except for comparing various antenna's of one manufacturer. There's no standard for measuring them.
In any case, ch13 is usually pretty easy to get in HD in Federal Way, unless your buried in trees or behind a big hill. I'm in Twin Lakes with a small UHF 4221 on the side of my house, and behind a bunch of trees. Still comes in with plenty of level. It's also kind of ugly when viewed on an anlyzer. HD tuners have different abilities in dealing with it. My ten year old HD satellite tuner could barely hold it. The new Direct box has no trouble with 13, but it can barely get ION. A newer Samsung H260 I have gets it fine. A new CM7000 analog converter I tried pulled in even more. Some brand new HD sets I've installed for customers are great, others lousy.

Hard to say what the exact cause of your trouble is. You could bypass the coupler between the antenna's and run the UHF only to see what happens. Cheap way to start the investigation. Let us know what happens.
Dan

mwnorman

10-16-08, 12:31 AM

Is anyone else not receiving the Pushing Daisies in HD tonight?

Whidbey

10-16-08, 02:43 PM

quarque

10-16-08, 07:48 PM

I seem to remember reading somewhere that KING5 was changing their channel from channel 48 to something lower during the 2/17/09 transition.
I did some searching, including this thread, and have come up empty handed.
Are they changing? And if so, to what channel?

I see nothing in the FCC database about this and never heard anything about it. The only stations locally that are going to a different frequency are 9,11,13 who are all going to VHF. The only reason for a UHF DT to change frequencies would be a conflict with another station. There is no conflict with ch 48 in our area that I know of.

organikeith

10-17-08, 11:20 AM

Keith
That antenna is the same as a regular 4221. Just comes with a cable. Regular 4221 has been around for decades, works well in the right locations. You can buy the cable at Home Depot or Fry's, and Rat Shack has them premade, various lengths.
The CM7000 for standard def works very well, bit better than the Zenith 901.
For HD, Samsung H260.
Dan

Thanks again for the help Dan! (and you other guys as well).
After I installed the CM 4221 on the side of my house with a 10ft mast, combined with the home made coathanger antenna indoors I am now getting digital channels 5, 9, 11, 13, 20(14), 28, 33, 45, 51 with all of their digital simulcasts, and some analogs.
I also picked up the Samsung H260, great tuner with a nice guide built in, evenly matched with my built in Toshiba Regza tuner.
Next I am going to try the CM 7777 to see if I can max out my signals and hopefully get even more :D
Cheers!
-Keith

DanKurts

10-18-08, 02:42 AM

Thanks again for the help Dan! (and you other guys as well).
After I installed the CM 4221 on the side of my house with a 10ft mast, combined with the home made coathanger antenna indoors I am now getting digital channels 5, 9, 11, 13, 20(14), 28, 33, 45, 51 with all of their digital simulcasts, and some analogs.
I also picked up the Samsung H260, great tuner with a nice guide built in, evenly matched with my built in Toshiba Regza tuner.
Next I am going to try the CM 7777 to see if I can max out my signals and hopefully get even more :D
Cheers!
-Keith

organikeith
Well done!
Dan

Kelly From KOMO

10-20-08, 07:46 PM

It's been a couple weeks, but I just updated my blog at http://www.dtvrules.com. The subject this week is about attic mounted antennas.

rdiotte

10-22-08, 01:51 PM

KSTW is once again testing our ch.11 digital transmission over the air this coming Monday, October 27th. We will be on the air from approx. 2 AM to 6 AM. with color bars/tone and an HD Test Announcement on physical ch,.11 201Mhz center frequency.
Remember to revert back to our temporary ch.36 digital channel if you are currently taking our digital signal in the interim.

I urge you to take advantage of these tests to determine reception of our permanent digital channel into your head end equipment prior to the mandatory end of analog TV on February 18, 2009.

We will continue to test at least 1 day per month, leading up to Feb. 18.

I will also be traveling to various locations in Tacoma this coming monday morning with mobile DTV reception gear to validate our signal is covering our city of license.

R Diotte
CE, KSTW ;)

DanKurts

10-23-08, 12:51 AM

1337Rolla

10-24-08, 04:20 PM

I'm in Twin Lakes with a small UHF 4221 on the side of my house, and behind a bunch of trees. Still comes in with plenty of level. It's also kind of ugly when viewed on an anlyzer. HD tuners have different abilities in dealing with it. My ten year old HD satellite tuner could barely hold it. The new Direct box has no trouble with 13, but it can barely get ION. A newer Samsung H260 I have gets it fine. A new CM7000 analog converter I tried pulled in even more. Some brand new HD sets I've installed for customers are great, others lousy.
I manged to get everything solved.. except channel 13. I purchased a U75 at radio shack and aimed it towards tiger.. I now get 33, 45, 51 with great signal quality (30' quad-shielded cable to seperate it from my other 2 antennas). the main uhf/vhf antenna seems to handle the seattle channels and I turned my VHF only back towards bremerton to get 13 analog again. Turns out I'm not getting 13 digital because it's on a uhf channel at the moment. Guess I'll wait until the switchover when it moves back to vhf then I should get 13.1 also. Thanks for your help and suggestions Dan!

My new channel lineup:

4 4.1
5 5.1 5.2
7 7.1 7.2
9 9.1 9.2 9.3
11 11.1
12 (very fuzzy) KVOS
13
16 16.1 16.2
22 22.1
28 (very fuzzy) KBTC bates college
29 (very fuzzy) Yakima?
33 33.1 33.2 33.3 33.4
35 (audio only) Bellingham
42.1
45 (audio only) 45.1 45.2 45.3 45.4
46 (audio only) Roseburg? can't find anything closer on that frequency
51 51.1
53 (audio only)
58 (very fuzzy) Toppenish?
62 (audio only) Port Townsend?
64 (audio only)
66 (audio only) CHNU-TV JoyTV Vancouver
68 (audio only) KCPQ rebroadcast

DanKurts

10-26-08, 02:58 AM

I manged to get everything solved.. except channel 13. I purchased a U75 at radio shack and aimed it towards tiger.. I now get 33, 45, 51 with great signal quality (30' quad-shielded cable to seperate it from my other 2 antennas). the main uhf/vhf antenna seems to handle the seattle channels and I turned my VHF only back towards bremerton to get 13 analog again. Turns out I'm not getting 13 digital because it's on a uhf channel at the moment. Guess I'll wait until the switchover when it moves back to vhf then I should get 13.1 also. Thanks for your help and suggestions Dan!

My new channel lineup:

4 4.1
5 5.1 5.2
7 7.1 7.2
9 9.1 9.2 9.3
11 11.1
12 (very fuzzy) KVOS
13
16 16.1 16.2
22 22.1
28 (very fuzzy) KBTC bates college
29 (very fuzzy) Yakima?
33 33.1 33.2 33.3 33.4
35 (audio only) Bellingham
42.1
45 (audio only) 45.1 45.2 45.3 45.4
46 (audio only) Roseburg? can't find anything closer on that frequency
51 51.1
53 (audio only)
58 (very fuzzy) Toppenish?
62 (audio only) Port Townsend?
64 (audio only)
66 (audio only) CHNU-TV JoyTV Vancouver
68 (audio only) KCPQ rebroadcast

1337Rolla
Good job. Whatever works, works !
I agree. If you're not missing 13 that much, then wait for the change.
Dan

organikeith

10-27-08, 10:56 AM

I don't know about you, but Sunday was my best day for DTV reception in Puyallup yet!
Temp/weather/interference were factors I am guessing? I have made some modifications to my set up as well ...which I am thinking helped.
On Friday I added another bracket to further stabilize my CM 4221 mast, and installed a CM 7777 amplifier.
At first I didn't see much improvement... but Saturday I picked up 4.1 which I never had gotten before, and 7.1 and 7.2 (even though weak)...
Sunday night after the Seahawks game I decided to re-tune because every DTV station was strong and viewable all day and....Wa-la! I picked up digital 12.1, 16.1 and 22.1, 22.2 as well!!! Woohoo!
I'll keep checking to see if reception remains strong or drops significantly over the week.
I am hoping signals just better as we get closer to the conversion.
Thanks again folks!

buckfalfa

10-27-08, 06:01 PM

McFly9000

10-27-08, 07:56 PM

Just thought I'd give my results from the KSTW VHF channel digital test. At 2:30am with a RCA DTA800B converter box I was able to pick up the test screens without any problems.

My location is Latitude = 47.3159, Longitude = -121.8960 (~10mi N of Enumclaw) at about 750 feet. The antenna is a 30+ year old VHF only antenna with a preamp mounted on the roof at about 30 feet.

The RCA box showed a signal of 44-48% with the KSTW test signals

My main UHF antenna is a Antennas Direct 42XG mounted 80 feet up a cedar tree with a CM7775 preamp and 300 feet of RG6 coax. That preamp is UHF only so I was unable to test the 42XGs ability on the KSTW VHF test channel. But to compare the KSTW VHF test signal with others I hooked up the RCA box to that antenna and other digital stations were as follows: 4-1=54%, 5-1=47%, 7-1=59%, 9-1=62%, 11-1=60%, 12-1=11%, 13-1=41%, 16-1=59%, 20-1=39%, 22-1=54%, 33-1=40%, 45=22%

The box seems to lock onto a signal at about 10%. 12-1 comes and goes depending on the time of day normally anyway.

I'd be curious to know the details about the KSTW test signal - power level, antenna type and orientation etc. Does anyone know?

After a couple years with the Antennas Direct 42XG I can say it is the best of the three antennas I have tried. The other two were the Channel Master 4228, and a huge UHF only Radio Shack Yagi. The 42XG has never faltered once and locks onto signals even during crazy windstorms. My main tuner is a LG LST-4200A.

Hope this info helps anyone curious.

DanKurts

10-27-08, 10:36 PM

Well, I'm back to post my disappointing results with the AntennasDirect 91XG in Duvall (NE Miller St. at about 500' elev.)

I replaced my radio shack combo antenna with the 91XG in hopes of getting a stronger lock on 5.1 (KING-NBC.) It dropped to NOTHING! I even attempted to give it another 10 feet of height and still zip, nada, zilch. (I use a CM-7777 amp.)

The good news is that the extra 10 feet of mast height put my RatShack antenna into a sweet spot once I swapped it back in for the XG91 and now 5.1 is very steady (along with 33.1, 33.2, 33.3 which had been spotty.) We'll see how it holds up once the winter weather rolls in.

Next time Dan tells me an antenna wasn't successful for him, you bet I'll believe!:)

As a side note, my folks switched to a 91XG in New Hampshire and got better results (they're in the fringe of the Boston area broadcasts and had been using the 4228.) They run a direct line with no amp on a rotator. Perhaps different signal patterns in the different markets? Oh well, the 91XG gets rave reviews elsewhere, but I can vouch for Duvall as a No-go for this model...

buckfalfa
Not surprised, just sorry you had to go through the grief, but it all worked for the better, so it did help in one sense ! A big applause for all the effort, patience pays again.
I would bet that your folks TV would've worked as well or better with a 4248 yagi style. And you're correct, hard to say what their problems were without being there.
Going from a 4228 to a yagi is a huge difference, though. Could be better or worse, depending on circumstances, but very different styles. I know lots of people on the forums swear by brand X or Z. Some will say that they must be good with so many successful installs. Thing is, unless you were there and saw the actual location, with all it's good and bad points, and measured it with a real meter, you just don't know. I could use a coat hanger in Ballard and would probably do quite well, aimed right and in the right spot. Same with the 4228. It would be overkill there, but it would work. With digital, you just don't know whether you're doing great or barely hanging on. I'm no expert, but have seen and done a few. That's why any antenna that's new deserves a look, and possibly some field testing. And as organikeith has shown, even wierd stuff can work well. Never say never.
My experience has shown the 4228 is just not that great. Again, there's always an exception, but having dragged that critter around for years, it just didn't so any better, anywhere, than a 4221. Further, I've done a lot of jobs to fix someone elses install, and found the 4228 was lousy, the 4221 fine, and simply cut the connectors off one side, making it a 4221, and it worked fine.
My 4228 now hangs in the garage along with my other ones that didn't make it. Figured I would keep it. You never know when the BBQ grill might rust out on an important Saturday afternoon!

Dan

DanKurts

10-27-08, 10:47 PM

DanKurts

10-27-08, 10:49 PM

Whidbey

10-27-08, 11:11 PM

My experience has shown the 4228 is just not that great. Again, there's always an exception, but having dragged that critter around for years, it just didn't so any better, anywhere, than a 4221. Further, I've done a lot of jobs to fix someone elses install, and found the 4228 was lousy, the 4221 fine, and simply cut the connectors off one side, making it a 4221, and it worked fine.
My 4228 now hangs in the garage along with my other ones that didn't make it. Figured I would keep it. You never know when the BBQ grill might rust out on an important Saturday afternoon!

Dan

I'm the exception! I've been amazed at how well the 4228 works in my area. Today I was even watching analog Channel 2 CBC with a very clear (cable-like) picture.

organikeith

10-28-08, 04:32 PM

finlay648

10-28-08, 04:50 PM

I'm the exception! I've been amazed at how well the 4228 works in my area. Today I was even watching analog Channel 2 CBC with a very clear (cable-like) picture.

The 4228 works well for me as well - the other night I even got Portland stations which are ~200 mi away :)

Whidbey

10-28-08, 10:40 PM

The 4228 works well for me as well - the other night I even got Portland stations which are ~200 mi away :)

I've picked up a digital signal from Channel 30 in Vancouver, WA, but not enough to get a picture. I'm hoping one of these nights I'll get the chance to try again with my TR40. It seems better at sniffing out traces of distant signals and getting the PSIP info and sometimes even a few blips of picture. I can do this pretty consistently with PBS Tacoma.

MY TR40 sensed that something was up with Channel 11 last night. Yesterday it said that channel 36.01 was added, the today it said 11.01 was added. I know they were testing so I guess it's a good sign that my receiver sensed it.

DanKurts

10-29-08, 01:46 AM

The 4228 works well for me as well - the other night I even got Portland stations which are ~200 mi away :)

finlay648
Excellent! Ya gotta love tropo skip. That's well beyond earths curvature.

My 4228 experience wasn't as good. I have seen them do quite well in a few installs. The times they did well, though, I found other flavors worked better. Again, every install is unique. If it works, great. For me, after many surveys and installs, it just wasn't worth the hassle of testing against others anymore. It's still here to try on the impossible, though, never say never.
Dan

organikeith

10-29-08, 09:40 AM

It was fun while it lasted but back to reality today....4.1, 7.1, 12.1, 16.1 and 22.1, 22.2 are for the most part gone today.. 4.1 came in great last night..spotty today, same for 22.1. Downtown Seattle during the week (and whatever is inbetween) must be creating multipath problems.. When everyone goes home for the weekend and the weather is nice signals come in better...
I'll keep tinkering.
All the best!
-Keith

Good news, 22.1 and 4.1 are back! This tells me when conditions are perfect again, the other channels will come back in again too....I tried re-aiming yesterday to solve the original loss of signal.... I only lost channels and had to move it back to where i had it over the weekend.
What have I learned?

Timing is huge especially when aiming a new (or existing) antenna to find that sweet spot. (and Toshiba puts awesome digital tuners in their TVs)

Moonus

10-29-08, 06:10 PM

Trip in VA

10-29-08, 07:40 PM

2) When KCPQ switches to physical channel 13 in February, are they going to move their digital transmitter up the tower to the same location the analog transmitter presently occupies? Presently, I pull in the analog signal VERY well (no snow, no ghosting, etc.) but can only tune in the digital signal (physical channel 18) when there are low clouds (I'm on the wrong side of a low ridge between me and Gold Mountain, I think the clouds give me a view thru scatter). I see from the Wikipedia entry for KCPQ (which links to the FCC license database) that Antenna Height Above Ground Level is 204 for analog, 178.8 for digital. I'm hoping that they'll move the digital broadcast antenna higher in February and that, coupled with the better propagation of the lower frequency, will improve my reception of digital KCPQ.

They will be using the current analog antenna on top of the tower for digital after the transition. Hopefully it will work well for you.

2.1 Minor side question regarding channel 13: What's up with the difference in ERP for KCPQ analog vs. digital? Analog is 316 ERP, digital is 600 ERP. Is this just a function of the difference between 210-216 MHz vs. 494-500 MHz (more power required at the higher frequency)? There's also an FCC record for digital at 210-216 MHZ with an ERP of 30, but this record is labeled "Modification of Construction Permit," which makes it sound like the temporary "we're working on the antennas and transmitting at low power" setting.

Your first assertion is correct, the UHF (18) signals require more power than the VHF (13) signals, thus the higher power level.

When all is said and done, KCPQ-DT will have 30 kW. Digital signals overall require less power than analogs to cover the same area. While I disagree with the FCC on just how much less, 30 kW should provide adequate coverage in this case. Their original construction permit was for 22.1 kW that the FCC gave them. The "modification of construction permit" means the FCC granted them permission to boost up to 30 kW.

In fairness to KCPQ, 30 kW is the FCC power limit for their tower height.

In writing this up, I notice that channel 18 is just shy of 500 MHz, leaving me to wonder if there's something in my system which doesn't like this frequency. Maybe there was cheap coax with a cutoff at about 500 MHz? But what about all the high-frequency UHF channels which seem to be getting through it just fine?

No, I think it's just the tower location. KTBW 20.1 also comes from the KCPQ location and your list implies that you cannot see that signal either. You probably just have terrain blocking your view of that location. No other Seattle stations transmit from there.

- Trip

DanKurts

10-30-08, 02:07 AM

I'm wondering two things re channel 4 and channel 13:

1) Is channel 4, KOMO, going to do something about their figure 8 radiation pattern? I can SEE the antennas and receive an only marginal signal. Near as I can tell, the best explanation is the figure 8 radiation pattern with the North-South bias and I'm just about due West of the antenna. The strongest signal I get is when I point my antenna at about 220 degrees, like I'm looking at the reflection of the south lobe? Or orienting my antenna along the elliptical radiation lines? Poor signal level when I point straight at the transmitters. Seems odd.

2) When KCPQ switches to physical channel 13 in February, are they going to move their digital transmitter up the tower to the same location the analog transmitter presently occupies? Presently, I pull in the analog signal VERY well (no snow, no ghosting, etc.) but can only tune in the digital signal (physical channel 18) when there are low clouds (I'm on the wrong side of a low ridge between me and Gold Mountain, I think the clouds give me a view thru scatter). I see from the Wikipedia entry for KCPQ (which links to the FCC license database) that Antenna Height Above Ground Level is 204 for analog, 178.8 for digital. I'm hoping that they'll move the digital broadcast antenna higher in February and that, coupled with the better propagation of the lower frequency, will improve my reception of digital KCPQ.

2.1 Minor side question regarding channel 13: What's up with the difference in ERP for KCPQ analog vs. digital? Analog is 316 ERP, digital is 600 ERP. Is this just a function of the difference between 210-216 MHz vs. 494-500 MHz (more power required at the higher frequency)? There's also an FCC record for digital at 210-216 MHZ with an ERP of 30, but this record is labeled "Modification of Construction Permit," which makes it sound like the temporary "we're working on the antennas and transmitting at low power" setting.

The stat's on my OTA system:
I live on the East side of Bainbridge, about 240' above sea level, and have a basically unobstructed view of downtown Seattle and all the transmitters on Queen Anne and Cap Hill (about 300 yards away there is a *single* fir tree between me and the KOMO tower). I have a 8-bay bowtie for UHF and a medium size yagi for VHF (oriented on the same axis, separated by about 8'), on a 10' mast on the roof, with a rotor, and a 7777 at the base of the masthead.

Only thing a bit funky about our home OTA system is an 8-way passive splitter (ganged together out of two splitters). There used to be an in-line distribution amplifier before the splitter, but it didn't play well with the 7777 and the 7777 gives a stronger signal at the terminals, so the 7777 presently provides the only amplification. Concerned about the effect of the splitter, I've tried connecting the line from the antenna directly to one of the TV feeder lines, but didn't improve the signal level significantly.

Leaving the antennas at about 220 degrees, I can pull in 4.1, 5.x, 7.x, 9.x, 11.1, 13.x (when cloudy), 16.1, 22.x, 33.x, 42.x and 45.x. I could probably find more playing with the rotor, but haven't found a stronger orientation for 4.1 and this orientation works well enough with all the other channels I care about (KCPQ comes in a bit stronger at about 240 degrees).

In writing this up, I notice that channel 18 is just shy of 500 MHz, leaving me to wonder if there's something in my system which doesn't like this frequency. Maybe there was cheap coax with a cutoff at about 500 MHz? But what about all the high-frequency UHF channels which seem to be getting through it just fine?

Any thoughts one my two (or four or five) questions, above?

Moonus
1. I'm assuming you're more north on the island, towards Port Madison. My first reaction is you're in the known shadow for KOMO that basically runs NW. It also has smaller instances further west. The pattern for them is not the figure 8, that's KING. KOMO is a letter D

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18937&rotate=0.00&p0=0.923&p10=0.976&p20=0.998&p25=1.000&p30=0.997&p40=0.984&p50=0.966&p60=0.951&p70=0.942&p80=0.937&p90=0.936&p100=0.937&p110=0.942&p120=0.951&p130=0.966&p140=0.984&p150=0.997&p155=1.000&p160=0.998&p170=0.976&p180=0.923&p190=0.838&p200=0.725&p210=0.593&p220=0.459&p230=0.345&p240=0.276&p250=0.261&p260=0.272&p270=0.280&p280=0.272&p290=0.261&p300=0.276&p310=0.345&p320=0.459&p330=0.593&p340=0.725&p350=0.838&p360=0.923&

Power is noticeably less in your direction. Usually that's not the problem. The signal "shadow" isn't really, it's just all chopped up, when viewed on an analyzer. Instead of a nice flat line from 614mhz to 620mhz, you get this almost perfect sawtooth pattern. I've seen it on Magnolia, east side of the hill, looking right at the towers. Wierd, but will not lock.

You could also have a "suckout" or bad spot in your coax, amplifier, antenna, splitters or even your tuner. Since the rest are coming in so well, specially ch's 9 and 7, which are right above and below KOMO in frequency, not very likely.

The tree definitely makes me wonder. I have been amazed, many times, by how much just one will do to signals, even when they were 1/4 to 1/2 mile away. Move ten feet right or left, fine, back to first spot, zip. Even with different antennas. Yet other channels come in okay. Further signs of the guilty tree come from your misaiming the antenna to make it better.
Digital reception is more surprising and less predictable than analog ever was. Also far better when when working. Sure makes things interesting.

2. The ch13 problem could be from several things.

First, when looking at tower data from the FCC site, the more important figure you want is for the height of an antenna above mean sea level, AMSL. At the current location for the antenna it's 693 meters, or 2270 ft. The height above the ground at 178 ft just says they have a small tower on a BIG hill. This means that moving the antenna up 26ft, give or take, is going to make a miniscule difference in the overall height, and the angle at which it comes in to you. The Seattle channels are all around 800ft to 1000ft. Even there, it still won't make a big deal. What will is going to VHF. The lower the frequency, the more it likes to "bend" over the hills. And, getting the digital antennas off the sides of the towers and on top. Ch's 4,5,7 and 16 are all on the east sides. That will definitely help all those in Kitsap county.

Second, since ch 13 is pretty close, and quite strong there, it's very possible that with the big UHF antenna and strong preamp, you're overloading your tuner. The one figure about the 7777 or 7775 amplifiers that most people don't realize is its HUGE headroom. Although the gain is only around 25db, it can pump out as much as 56 db if you feed it 25 to 30. Really. That's a bunch and then some. And no appreciable distortion. I've fed 50 units in an apartment building with that much, easily. Other similar gain amps whimp out around 30db. Without a meter to read the actual levels, it's hard to judge. Digital just says it's happy once you get enough to lock on. Once you get over 20db on an input, though, most tuners will show the same effects as a very weak signal, say below -15db.
I would bet that things will improve for you when they do the switch.

As for the power levels, the lower the frequency, the less power to cover the same area, in general terms. Analog TV is quite different from digital TV signals as well in bandwidth, and some other factors. Comparing them for ERP can be a bit misleading. Suffice to say, I would bet they'll have plenty of power to cover the same area.

Your splitter problem could be a part of the overall problem, too. By removing them and connecting directly, again you could be overloading, and thats why it looks worse or no improvement. The signal "level" you're seeing on your TV or tuner is not really actual amount, just signal to noise ratio, once above a minimum amount for the decoders to lock in. Sometimes they use other criteria to show reception, but it's not really a direct correllation to actual amount, as in db's. Once you lock on with digital, it's perfect. You could be barely hanging on, but still showing 90%. A few tree limbs blow around and knock signal down just 1db, and you get zip. Few seconds later, 90%. just another thing that makes this reception project interesting.
The splitters, and their many cables, can also act like antennas if not properly terminated (left unconnected to a tuner or TV) or have poor connectors. They can at times act like traps, too. The signal will run down to the end and back and cause reflections that can phase cancel. Because this is very frequency dependent, you can still have other channels working fine.

I think you have a pretty good setup from your description. For now, I would leave it until the changeover. Once there, let us know what happens. There are a few other things that could be tried at that point, if needed. If you want happiness, now, you could move the antenna location to get around that tree, preferably to it's south side. Then tweak to see what happens.

Keep us informed. We don't get much feedback from your area.

Dan

McFly9000

10-30-08, 10:23 AM

rdn

10-30-08, 11:03 AM

I'm probably south of Moonus (south side of Eagle Harbor) and have always had similar issues with KOMO. I have found that moving the antenna location around a bit helps, but the "hot spots" are not very large and some of the other channels had issues when I could get better KOMO reception. I'm only at about 50 ft. elevation with a significant number of trees (otherwise I could see the tower). I contacted KOMO a few years ago and Don Wilkinson (I don't think he is there anymore) had some helpful ideas but we concluded that the trees were the issue. The last I heard (from Kelly on this forum) was that they were considering putting a UHF antenna at the top of the tower after the transition. Hopefully it will be an omnidirectional type so the signal to the west will improve.

I don't receive KCPQ either, but there is a hill in the way. Fortunately Directv has been carrying both KOMO and KCPQ in HD for over a year so I haven't worried about it recently.

organikeith

10-30-08, 12:00 PM

Hi McFly9000,
Thanks for the info and recommendation. You might be on to something. Signal levels for 5.1 is about 50/100, 4.1 and 22.1 pop in and out in the 50's when viewable. And yes, when I lose 4.1 and others I get signals that bump up to the 40's then drop down to 0-10, then back up to 40 etc..
Here is a list from memory..
5.1 50/100
9.1 53/100
11.1 55/100
13.1 72/100
20.1 (14) 63/100
28.1 96/100
33.1 60/100
45.1 56/100
51.1 58/100

With the 4221 aimed perfectly I can get all of these channels, if I aim farther west, 33 and 45 disappear, too far to the east and 5.1 doesn't come in as strong (i usually lose 5 points or so, enough to cause too many errors)
I am using a CM 7777, I have it about 8 feet down the mast for ease of access, I am considering moving it up. I could probably move it up 4-5 feet pretty easily..but to move it all the way to the top I would have to take the antenna down. Re-aiming is a pain and I am not sure if it will help all that much.
I'll take a gander at the antennas you mentioned..maybe combining one of those with the 4221 may be the ticket.

Moonus

10-30-08, 12:53 PM

Webwalker

10-30-08, 05:55 PM

Kelly From KOMO

10-30-08, 06:22 PM

Thanks very much to all who replied. Maybe KOMO Kelly will pass along our notes to the engineering dept. and they'll give some more thought to adjusting their antenna as rnd suggests they have considered. We can live without the Simpsons until February, but things get tense when we're watching Jeopardy and the signal drops at a crucial moment! Just frustrating, given such a straight shot to the transmitter.

DanKurts: I'll try by-passing the splitter one more time, but without the 7777, to check if signal overload is the issue. I hadn't considered that -- maybe the clouds are dampening the signal just enough, not providing a view via scatter? Regardless, I will report back in February regarding ch. 13.

Hi Moonus,

I don't work for KOMO anymore, and hope to be returning to the board with a new handle soon.

Prior to departing KOMO's parent company, I had completed a design with an antenna manufacturer, for a new DTV antenna to be installed in place of the existing "Batwing" Channel 4 VHF transmit antenna. Since I'm no longer in the loop regarding KOMO's plans, I can't motivate anyone.

Just so you know, an antenna of this scope, size, and cost, take months to build and test before being ready for installation. Then comes the tricky part of carefully removing 10,000+ lbs of old antenna and support structure and replacing it with the new antenna. A project of this type will cost north of $300,000. Again I don't have any inside information, but if the economy keeps sinking, and advertising continues to shrink, stations like KOMO may opt to hold off on that sort of major project considering the OTA viewership in the Seattle-Tacoma DMA is less than 20%. That isn't to say that they wouldn't want to make the change, or would be trying to "screw" the free OTA viewers, it's just given the choice of satisfying the needs for OTA viewers and keeping the lights on, the decision to delay an antenna replacement becomes clear, (so to speak).

I also read today that the FCC is considering delaying the requirement of turning off analog TV completely, and instead having stations provide more information about DTV,(on analog) and where to find regular programming via DTV. Congress is rightfully concerned about what happens when emergencies occur after the loss of analog TV, and may allow stations to keep their analog signals ready for sixty days or more after February 17, 2009.

Whatever the delays, rest assured that few stations will be able to swap out an antenna quickly after February 17th.

rdn

10-30-08, 08:39 PM

I realize that the title of this question seems absurb.....
However, for instance when I go to KCTS9 SD it will display in 16:9 format, however when I go up a channel to KCTS9 HD it will be in 4:3 format and the only way to fill the screen is to choose a "wide" or stretched format from my TV's menu.
This is not for every channel.......but most. When I click on "info" option, I often find that it's 480i 4:3 so maybe the channels are only broadcast in 4:3?
I have a Samsung 50" plasma that's 2 days old.

Anyone able to shed light on this very strange happening?
Thanks!

KCTS made some changes last month. The main 9.1 channel is now 16:9 720p HD, but many programs are 4:3 and letterboxed. 9.2 (V-Me) and 9.3 (Create) are 480i 4:3 SD. 9.5 (which was the HD channel) no longer exists.

You will find HD on 4.1 (720p), 5.1 (1080i), 7.1 (1080i), 9.1 (720p), 11.1 (1080i), 13.1 (720p), 16.1 (1080i) and 22.1 (720p). AFAIK (I can't receive some of them to check), all of the others are 4:3 480i.

organikeith

10-31-08, 01:12 AM

Webwalker

10-31-08, 02:21 AM

thanks bob....seems absurd that they would be broadcasting a so called HD image in 4:3 format. Oh well......I can't complain too muc given its free.

DanKurts

10-31-08, 03:14 AM

DanKurts

10-31-08, 04:09 AM

organikeith-
I know Dan recommended the CM 4221 but I wonder if an antenna with more gain and narrower beam width might help you there. I know he said you are in a bad area but you are having some of the same reception characteristics I had when I had the CM 4228(basically two 4221's hooked together) I wonder if a yagi style like the old CM 4248/ CM 3023 would give you more stable signals? When I switched to the Antennas Direct 42XG it really cut through the trees better in my location. Maybe that hill in your way is mangling the signals beyond reliable use...

What kind of "signal strength" are you getting on your channels? My signal meter would show like 50% for a couple seconds then drop down to very little. With the beam style antenna they never bounce around. I suspect the huge signal fluctuations were from the multipath the 4228 brought in.

I am curious what Dan thinks about the new Channel master antennas - the CM 2018 and CM 2020? These are supposed to be for areas that will have some high band VHF channels, like 9, 11 and 13 will be in Seattle after the Feb deadline. Winegard has some new antennas the HD769... series that look pretty interesting.

McFly9000
The 2020 is nothing new, just a slightly smaller version of the 4248 plus their cheap VHF. True, it is very narrow, and can help in the trees. Gain is about the same actually. Thing is, from where organikeith is, he will need a rotor to get all the ones he wants, or run some separate leads and switch between the antennas. Combining them will just make things worse.
His biggest problem is of the 31 miles to his house from Queen Anne Hill, 29 of them have hills over 450ft high in the way. It's like when a car comes at you over a hill at night. You only see the glow of the headlights. He's working in the glow. And the miles of trees just scatter and block the signals. As they get wet, and/or blow in the wind, it just gets worse. The narrow style yagi antenna does help the preamplifier by keeping out unwanted signals, and allowing its auto gain control to work better. Usually. His tuner is doing phenominal things with practically nothing. Working with signal that weak gives very erratic results.
As for the Winegard, it would probably do about the same as the CM2018. But all Winegards use a ridiculous clip-on balun that just invites failure down the road. The actual contact area is miniscule. It takes very little corrosion to loose the signal. All antennas corrode to some degree, but they go faster. It's hard to describe, but when you see how it connects, it will make sense. The balun is in a plastic housing to protect it from the elements, too, but it's not waterproof, and it does get wet. Kinda sad because the antenna is built well, otherwise.

In any case, a better idea would be to use separate VHF and UHF antennas. The 4248 is bigger, and would allow more tweaking to get it right. The VHF will be act quite a bit differently in a weak signal, so it may need to be quite a bit off-axis to work for those channels. You can combine them with the 7777.

Dan

DanKurts

10-31-08, 04:22 AM

Evening folks... I am currently using Rat shack's silicon filled F type connecters on my outdoor RG6 cable and am wondering if that might have a negative effect on power transfer from antenna amplifiers? I am under the impression that power is forced up the RG6 cable via the copper wire and the outer wire mesh. Could the silicon sitting on the wire mesh reduce the cables ability to transfer power? Just curious if I should try re-wiring when I move the CM 7777 farther up the mast..
Thanks!
-Keith

Keith
I've never been a big fan of the silicon stuff for antennas. You're working with such tiny amounts signal, it doesn't take much to loose it. Yes, the power goes up the cable to the preamp and signal back down. The power isn't the problem, there's plenty of current. It's the small amount coming back. The way I seal the fittings is with plain old electrical tape, stretched slightly to make a good seal. Sounds simple and is. I've come back years later and unwrapped one, looks as shiny as when I put it on. The little rubber boots or rubber ring fittings still allow moisture. The current flow accelerates it. It's vital to get a good seal.
Moving the preamp further up the mast won't make much difference for just a few feet. As long as you're close to the antenna.
Dan

rdn

10-31-08, 11:34 AM

thanks bob....seems absurd that they would be broadcasting a so called HD image in 4:3 format. Oh well......I can't complain too muc given its free.

All the HD stations do that, since much of the programming (even new) is originated as 4:3. They keep the 16:9 frame and add a black pillar box to the sides of the 4:3. Some of the stuff from the UK, like BBC World News has a different aspect ratio and there will be a thin strip at the top as well. Depending on the source content, the resolution can still look quite good. There is quite a bit of 16:9 programming on KCTS, particularly in the evenings but also some of the morning kid's programs.

tuquet

10-31-08, 01:08 PM

McFly9000

10-31-08, 05:13 PM

DanKurts

10-31-08, 09:25 PM

Dan, thanks for your input. You have the best analogies! The car headlights is a perfect way to visualize this, especially with hills and trees. Just add some fog...

I plan on combining an older high band VHF antenna similar to the winegard YA1713 (http://winegard.com/offair/pdf/Ya-1713.pdf) I had used a while back for CH13, with my UHF and a 7777 preamp. This antenna has the screw type terminals and I plan to use my own balun I will seal. I'll have to report back how this worked when KSTW has another signal test. It would be nice if the other networks had a test for us.

Another question I have is about the FM trap these preamps have. Do these FM signals even affect DTV signals? Seems like the high band VHF are far enough away from the FM to avoid any problems. Would the FM harmonics affect the digital signals...? I think I am far enough away that the FM isn't a factor.

McFly9000
That's a great HiBand antenna. Normally, that might be a bit too directional for most locations, but you're in a great spot. It should work very well, or, better than most anything else you might want to try. The 7777 will do a great job of equalizing the two as well.
FM freq's are far below ch9. The main reason for the FM trap is to keep harmonics from bothering analog signals. HD doesn't seem to have the same problem, in my experience. You're actually very close for FM, to Tiger Mt, where most are located. It shouldn't affect anything. I believe the 7777 comes with the FM trap ON, anyway, so you're double covered.
Keep the two antennas at least 3ft apart, if on the same mast, and the UHF above.

Let us know what happens with next ch11 test. I was very impressed with my results, considering they were using very low power. I hope their engineer, Ray, will let us know what power level they use this time, as well as what their results show. Would be great if we could get numbers on where and with what antenna they use, too. Don't expect too much, as I'm sure he's plenty busy getting all this coordinated.

Dan

Whoops. I misspelled Mr. Diotte's name, should've been Ron, ch11's engineer. Thanks for pointing it out Budget_HT.
Sincere apologies Ron.

DanKurts

10-31-08, 10:41 PM

Dan, Larry and/or other pros/amateur,

Apparently 41, 36, 18 will revert to 9, 11, 13 in February (why, oh, why) so I think it is about time to think about antenna again.

Currently I am happy with the RS 15-2160 6 feet off the ground so to add VHF I am trying to contain to similar size and it looks like the HD-1080, SS-3000 and CM-2016 are in that category. I do have plenty of options to move it around/up/down.

Would you think these are comparable reception-wise and which would be better among the three. I kind of like the HD-1080 as it seems simple and balanced.

Thanks,
-tq

tuquet
I forgot where you're located. It makes a difference on what you need.
The SharpShooter is amplified, and designed for indoors. I've never been impressed with the various flavors of these antennas. The CM2016 is fine for UHF, very similar to yours. The VHF part looks silly. It will work, but not sure how well. The Winegard actually has some VHF elements, but you loose a lot of the directionality yours has because it's vertical. How that affects you depends on your location. At least it has regular balun connections. Like all three, it has very limited gain.
I would suggest using the Antennacraft Y5-7-13
http://www.antennacraft.net/Yagi.html
or one similar. It has some length to the boom to give it similar directionality, yet it's small enough to make mounting easy. You could even end mount it with some minor bracket changes and a small brace. It doesn't weigh much, and you get one other thing a combo antenna can't, the ability to aim it differently from the UHF.
A simple UHF/VHF splitter/combiner can be used to couple them together with minimal loss. Make sure it's one thats 75 ohm only, and has one port UHF, one port VHF and one combined/split. DO NOT use a 2 way splitter. Although they look the same, they aren't. Tried to find a decent picture, but my usual places only had specs. In any case, I'm sure Fry's or RatShack would have one.
Dan

tuquet

10-31-08, 11:29 PM

Thank you Dan for the very detailed information. I am at 78th Ane NE and NE 198th St sorry to have omitted that, about 110ft (+25) above sea level, seem to have good LOS barring some trees to the hills and Gold Mountain. BTW, instead of the SS-3000, I actually meant the CM-3010 Stealthtenna, I am going to edit that.

The LOS between my antenna and the towers are currently blocked by some large trees but they will be replaced by houses in a few years (if they still sell) and for that I do not try to go for an all out solution just yet. Even with the trees currently, I am doing quite fine with the 2160, that is why I hope some small, simple solution like the HD-1080 would carry the distance (to Gold Moutain) until the surrounding is settled when I will come back and bother you guys again.

The Y5-7-13 addition looks like a sure solution for me, I will let you know how it turns out.

Thanks,
Luong/tq

DanKurts

11-01-08, 03:13 AM

tuquet

11-01-08, 02:34 PM

tuquet
Forget all those whimpy Stealth and other "miracle" solutions.
Dan
What? You tell me Santa isn't real? I think you nailed it. Over the years, I have far more antennas than tuners.

DanKurts

11-02-08, 01:59 AM

What? You tell me Santa isn't real? I think you nailed it. Over the years, I have far more antennas than tuners.

tuquet
Of course he's real. Never gives you what you need, but you can count on getting something......!
You must have been an installer in a past life. I have a garage full of antenna leftovers. Well, at least my half. Her side has her car and clean tidy space. What can I say. Hey, you never know. Someday I might need one of those rusty rivets from a 1956 FlammaJamma Tripplethrowdown Pixzupeverything antenna for a job....
Dan

wojcikc3

11-02-08, 03:39 PM

I was just wondering what attennas people were using in the Seattle area. I live east of Tacoma in Puyallup.

I am currently looking at these:
Monoprice 1 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2)
Monoprice 2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090101&p_id=4728&seq=1&format=2)

Terk HDTVa (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MXZB2/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header)

Thanks in advance!

Kelly From KOMO

11-02-08, 04:51 PM

For those who are interested, I just updated this weeks blog at:http//www.dtvrules.com. The topic this week: "Cable Being Deceptive??"

KR7L

11-02-08, 05:56 PM

1337Rolla
> A new CM7000 analog converter I tried pulled in even more. Some brand new HD sets I've installed for customers are great, others lousy.

Dan

Dan,

I am currently shopping for a replacement for my failing 32" CRT model but need to avoid those "lousy" sets. I am homing in on a Samsung or Sony in the 37-inch class (to fit in the available space). Care to name the ones to stay away from? :confused:

Richard

DanKurts

11-03-08, 12:38 AM

Dan,

I am currently shopping for a replacement for my failing 32" CRT model but need to avoid those "lousy" sets. I am homing in on a Samsung or Sony in the 37-inch class (to fit in the available space). Care to name the ones to stay away from? :confused:

Richard

Richard
Well, you hit on a subject I get asked a lot, and may not be normal for this thread, but I would like to offer some suggestions.

I'm spoiled from being raised on CRT's, literally. Grew up getting shocked in Dads TV and radio shop. Changed my first picture tube when I was 12. First color tube at age 14. If you weren't around in the 50's and 60's, that was an art to set one up correctly. I see far more flaws than most people, but try not to point them all out, as you can get pretty disappointed with most sets. For most people that go from a good old standard definition CRT, all the new HD sets look pretty bright and snappy. Rather than try and sell you on some brand that I like right off, it would be better if you arrived there on your own. Here are some suggestions on what to look for.

Your CRT has some really good points when operating correctly. The color, analog adjustments (basically infinite) and ability to be viewed off-axis, are the main points.
The replacements for it are basically two flavors, plasma and LCD (The HD on CRT's just can't be done, really, because of their construction).
The plasma's are closest to CRT. HD on plasma looks great. It looks amazing on a quality one. LCD types are limited in their abilities because of the way their made. They reflect less from windows, if that's a problem in your home, and have much brighter displays. The pictures don't have the same clarity when they're that bright, though. If you dial them back a few points, then they start to look clearer. Whites are not as white, more yellowish, blacks are more charcoal. Detail in shadows is a bit less to lousy, and fast motion tends to blur more. Viewed off axis they loose clarity and brightness. Dead in front of it's not bad. And there's more.

But as I said, I'm spoiled. I was trained to look for flaws, hard to stop looking.
What's really important is does it look good to you? Then, what's the warranty and repair history for the manufacturer. Of course, read some road tests. And be aware that new models are coming out all the time with much better pictures. Some testers in magazines that I tend to agree with are saying the gap between the plasma and LCD is getting very narrow. I have seen some LCD's that looked pretty good, but it was just for a few minutes, and you need more than that to really judge.

If you can, when you get down to the few models you're interested in, go to the dealer and watch the local Seattle news at 5pm. All three stations will be live at the same time. Watch the people behind the desk or in the studio, not out in the field with remote feeds. If possible, turn off the volume. Sounds silly, but you'll notice more without part of your brain having to listen at the same time. Also try to pick a dealer that has a lighting scenario close to what you have at home. Very few people live with light like the warehouse stores. By the way, mercury vapor lights will throw off your eyes a bit in the shade of colors. Very dark areas are not good, either, unless your looking at projectors, which require a completely different procedure. Too dark an area makes the eye's react more to the changing program material. A light to the side or rear gives the eye a reference point.
There are many adjustments on sets today, and they're usually set to look "WOW" in the stores. Most stores won't let you fool around with the settings to crank them back or even them out for comparison. Good news is almost all sets can be readjusted well enough at home. This is where reviews can help, as they put them through equipment tests and have a more critical eye. I tend to agree mostly with what I see in Home Theater Magazine, and Home Entertainment, both of which just had a pretty good articles on buying sets in last months issues. One of the testers I agree with more than most is Geoffrey Morrison, used to be with Home Theater, now heads up Home Entertainment. Both magazines did LCD tests this month.
Make no bones, I'm still not a big fan of LCD's, but when your constrained by size, not much choice. One thing to mention, a persons head, viewed on a 32" CRT is about the same size as a 42" HD set. That's because they have wider screens, and set sizes are measured diagonally, not side to side. IF you can find room to squeeze in a 41" to 42" wide set, then a plasma is possible. By all means, that's what you want. Properly setup, they are still the best thing going. And the above magazines have articles that bare out what I've known about the short lifespan myth. They will still have more than 50% of their brightness after 15 years of viewing. My 50" Panasonic is pushing 9yrs old, still looks good. My 42" Panasonic is a 6yr old hand-me-down with a gazillion hours on it, and running well. The burn in thing is a minor issue, no more a problem than your old CRT. It can happen, but unless you're playing a 35 year old PONG game 4 hours a day, every day, no big deal.

My picks for plasma, Pioneer Kuro, tops. In a class by itself. Yes, more bucks, but worth every penny. Watch one set up properly, with a live show or on a good BluRay disc, no contest, game over. Divide the extra grand cost by ten years or more, a bargin. I would buy one in heart beat, but I would never get off the couch! If your CFO just won't budge, a step down is the Panasonic high end models, another step down, their low end models, then several steps down are the rest, or better, start looking at high end LCD's.

I know, I got long winded again. But as much as people hate to admit it, the TV is one of the most used purchases at home, and can give you years of enjoyment. Why not get the best. And when I set up a good one, throw in a good BluRay disc or turn it to a live local show, wowser! One of the things that keeps me doing this is the smiles from customers when that happens. Never get tired of that. Like Christmas for me.

So, take your time, read up on reviews, and by all means watch them for a while in the store, or better, several stores. A good dealer will leave you alone to decide.

And if you find a screaming deal, or see something that just blows your knickers off, let us all know !!

Dan

DanKurts

11-03-08, 12:40 AM

wojcikc3

11-03-08, 11:27 AM

Valley Ave. NE & Meridian St.
Puyallup, WA

xijio

11-03-08, 02:48 PM

I bought a KWORLD ATSC 115 TV Tuner and I'm not having much success getting OTA HDTV signal. I live on the 4th story of an apartment complex at 52nd and roosevelt, seattle (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=5200+Roosevelt+Way+98105) on the north side of the building

I've tried several antennas with no success:

RCA ANT1050 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8939866&st=ANT1050&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1215217076045)
RCA ANT1251 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8280843&type=product&id=1171058630563)
TERK HDTVA (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7322587&type=product&id=1118844608800)

Each antenna has given me slightly better signal, but even w/ the TERK one the picture jumps wildly and is not even approaching watchable.

I'm wondering if an outdoor antenna is worth the investment. I don't have access to the south side of the building but I can set it up on the northside of the building on my balcony. I'm looking at Monoprice HDA 5700 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=1#largeimage")

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Sidenote: I had all the links pretty but:
"You are only allowed to post URLs once you have at least 3 posts. If you are a spammer, please go elsewhere. If not, sorry for this issue the spammers have made for."
Doesn't this ENCOURAGE me to spam so I can get my post count up to 3 and use the URL feature? ... whatever thanks for the help :)

rdb726g

11-03-08, 05:22 PM

tap

11-03-08, 11:06 PM

Looks like KCPQ didn't get the memo, their times are still all off by a hour.

DanKurts

11-04-08, 12:03 AM

DanKurts

11-04-08, 12:08 AM

DanKurts

11-04-08, 12:25 AM

Which OTA antenna should I be using to pickup stations in Silverdale (Kitsap County). I live in area known as Ridgetop, and it seems from topography map that I'm approx. 300' above sea level, with line-of-sight to Seattle and Everett approx 15 mi E, KCPQ 10 mi SW, and Tacoma 26 mi SE. There is a stand of fir trees abt 25 ft thick, and abt 50 yds away, between my location and Seattle if that matters. The nearest cross streets are Ridgetop Blvd and Derryfield Dr. I'd appreciate any help from the forum. I've been looking at CM 4228, since it seems to be recommended often from what I've been reading. Also, would like to know if ClearStream2 would work in my area (like the idea of small footprint). Thanks for any help.

rdb726g
You're just over the crest of the hill, on the west side, with the top about 50ft higher than you, and about a block or so away. The trees are not going to help. I would suggest the 4221, which is half of a 4228. It works just as well, iand is easier to wrestle with. You will need to get it on the roof top and at least ten ft up, if possible. Do not use a preamp. The 4221 is "wide" enough to allow reception from ch13 and still pull in Seattle. You will need to misaim it a bit further SE to get everything. Even when ch13 goes to VHF, you should still get it fine.
Dan

wojcikc3

11-04-08, 10:51 AM

rdn

11-04-08, 12:10 PM

Also, for internet & TV, are there any other choices besides Qwest out here?

Qwest doesn't offer TV (they did in Phoenix and one other area, but are shutting that down). They do have a bundle arrangement with Directv.

I dumped Qwest a year ago, switching to Clearwire with Vonage for telephone. Not long after I made the change, I got a mailing from Qwest showing lower internet rates than I was getting, but Clearwire + Vonage is still cheaper for me (Clearwire now has slightly lower rates, but only for new subscribers :( ).

rdb726g

11-04-08, 05:03 PM

seatacboy

11-04-08, 11:16 PM

When KIRO transmits live news on its 7.2 subchannel - such as tonight's local election results - why won't they use a normal or "cropped" aspect ratio?

Watching tonight's local election returns on KIRO 7.2, the station's use of a squeezed aspect ratio was VERY annoying. The squeezed aspect ratio display is exhibited both via OTA 7.2 and via Comcast channel 117. Bad as it looks on a standard-def CRT, the non-adjustable squeezed aspect ratio looks really tacky on a decent LCD or plasma display.

This squeezed aspect ratio affects the KIRO Morning News shown on 7.2 and other KIRO News-produced programs shown on 7.2, as well as the occasional CBS program which is "bumped" from 7.1 to 7.2 during special events such as Seafair.

Will KIRO's station engineer address this serious deficiency? This is a glaring distraction for the viewer, suggesting that KIRO's video production standards are inferior to KOMO, KING, and KCPQ. I don't think KIRO realizes how distracting this is to its valued viewership.

DanKurts

11-05-08, 03:58 AM

Dan,

Thanks for answering my post. Previously I referenced Ridgetop Blvd and Derryfield Dr as the nearest cross streets, because they are the closest "major" streets. I am actually about two blocks away @ Hampton Ave and Bartlett Ct (probably abt same EL as Ridgetop@Derryfield). Since my house is two-story, do you think the 4221's reception will suffer if I attempted to mount it in the second floor's attic space. I am concerned that if I stick it up in the air ten ft., it'll be susceptible to some of the high winds we get across Ridgetop during winter. Also, would the 4228 be better in this scenario? Also your thoughts on the antennasdirect.com clearstream antennas.

I've been reading the posts here for a couple of weeks now, trying to make a good choice for my needs. Your previous posts have convinced me that you definitely know your stuff. Thanks for taking the time and sharing your knowledge and expertise. Appreciate it!!

rdb726g
That does make a difference. You can try a 4221 in your attic, just don't be surprised at the results. It really needs to be outside. It doesn't have to be up high, just get it above the roof, or on a side of the house where it can see east to Seattle and SW to Bremerton. You're not going to get over the trees, so just move it around until you find your best spot. Go back a ways on this thread and you will find some hints on that. Patience will really reward in your situation. You shouldn't need a preamp, either.
The Clearstream looks odd, but then you never know. Most of the round types like that I tried, like the Sharpshooter, weren't that great. I can understand the theory, but it just didn't work that well around here. Maybe out in the clear, but even then the 4221 did better for me. Again, I've never tried one of the Clearstreams, so can't write if off. Unless I hear a glowing statement from one of my installer buddies, I'm in no hurry to add another to the pile. I'm not a big fan of the 4228, and it isn't really wide enough for your location.
Let us know how it goes.
Dan

artshotwell

11-05-08, 11:46 AM

RentonOTA

11-06-08, 02:44 AM

finlay648

11-06-08, 03:35 AM

I've been enjoying DTV OTA for about a week now from my location along Highway 169 just outside the Renton city limits. Most of the stations come in most of the time. I've got a CM 4221 that I haven't put up yet so I'm using an old RS UHF corner reflector yagi for now. Aim it more west and 4.1 is solid but the most of the rest are spotty at times. More east and the rest are solid but 4.1 freezes or blacks out. I'm counting on the 4221 to do a better job. The DTV converter is an APEX DT502 because I wanted the s-video outputs for my RCA tube set. Need to get a second converter for my VCR. does anyone have any experience or suggestions for a DTV converter box? I know as with most things "your millage may vary"

BTW there was no cable service when I moved here so I've always used VHF and UHF antennas for OTA and C-band sat. in its hayday.

Thanks

I have both a Zenith DTT901 and a Channel Master CM-7000 and I would recommend both. The Zenith is easier to use and has very good reception and good picture quality; the Channel Master has slightly better reception and and noticeably better picture quality (probably because it has an S-video output). The Zenith allows manual tuning of the channels in addition to channel scan has only now next EPG. The doesn't have a manual tuning mode but has a 12h EPG. I think Fry's sells the CM.
John

Whidbey

11-06-08, 09:51 AM

Need to get a second converter for my VCR. does anyone have any experience or suggestions for a DTV converter box?

I bought a TR-40cra for my VCR since it has a excellent program guide and an event scheduler. I've had absolutely zero problems with it.

organikeith

11-06-08, 11:37 AM

Thanks Dan.

I guess I will just keep shoveling money at comcast for the $13 basic cable package...

Any other suggestions?

Also, for internet & TV, are there any other choices besides Qwest out here?

Hi wojcikc3,
You aren't very far away from where I am.. E Main & 27th St NE. You can grab some stations OTA to add to what you are getting from Comcast basic (which is what I am doing).
I became interested in OTA when I saw a DIY coathanger antenna vid on youtube. If you want to play, build one and see what you get. I picked up 28 and 33 right away (which equates to 8 channels total). I drug it onto my roof leaned it against my chimney and picked up a few more, including FOX. I have since installed a CM 4221 and a CM 7777... see my previous posts for my current line up.
But like Dan says you will be hard pressed to pick up Seattle = KING, KOMO and KIRO. ( I can get KING all the time and sometimes KOMO, rarely KIRO).

As for TV options, I am under the impression that Direct TV (with a big enough dish to prevent rain fade) is a fair choice if you can negotiate the price down.
Internet? Other than Comcast and Qwest, you could do Clearwire and maybe Verizon if they are available in our area. (I have no experience either, I too am shoveling to Comcast for Internet)

organikeith

11-06-08, 11:41 AM

Is it worth the investment? Just curious to what you folks think...

(I know there are other forums for this kind of stuff, just wondering if any of you have played)
-Keith

DanKurts

11-06-08, 08:49 PM

I have both a Zenith DTT901 and a Channel Master CM-7000 and I would recommend both. The Zenith is easier to use and has very good reception and good picture quality; the Channel Master has slightly better reception and and noticeably better picture quality (probably because it has an S-video output). The Zenith allows manual tuning of the channels in addition to channel scan has only now next EPG. The doesn't have a manual tuning mode but has a 12h EPG. I think Fry's sells the CM.
John

I would second that. I also own both, and tested them against some others I have, and with my meter. The CM7000 was much more sensitive (able to work with less signal). Both worked far below others I've tried. The thing I've found in your area is the trees and direction tend to really chop signal up. Don't give up on the antenna you have until you've tried one of these boxes. They may surprise you, just as I was. As I said before, sure wish they would incorporate these tuners into the HD satellite boxes !
Dan

DanKurts

11-06-08, 09:00 PM

Is it worth the investment? Just curious to what you folks think...

(I know there are other forums for this kind of stuff, just wondering if any of you have played)
-Keith

Keith
I have installed a few, mainly for folks that wanted the Korean TV. There's 3 from one azimuth and two more not far off that direction. Dish and receivers are cheap, and there's lots of options in the way of mounts and motors to move them. Tons of free stuff, depends on what your interests are. Lyngsat.com has a lot of info. Be sure to read the legend at the bottom of each page, which will indicate which ones are free and unencrypted, and what flavor of dish. If you get into big dish, C-band stuff, there's even more free stuff.
One of my customers has 4DTV HD setup, as well as Direct AND Dish. You could spend days just reading the guides to figure what's on at any one time!!
Dan

zyland

11-06-08, 09:04 PM

The squeezed image looks correct when you expand it on a widescreen monitor. Unfortunately, this isn't an option with either of the two digital to analog converter boxes that I'm using DigitalStream and CM-7000. If the signal is 4:3, there is no option to squeeze vertically and add letterbox bars, which would also look correct.

One solution is to add this feature to d2a converters. Ain't gonna happen.

The other is for KIRO to leave the signal as is but identify the "squeezed" content as 16:9. Same bandwidth but it would display correctly on widescreen monitors and 4:3 analog after d2a converters. I think this is the way that KCTS 9.1 used to work back when it was 16:9 SD. But I've noticed that stations tend to avoid format switches on any particular channel.

organikeith

11-07-08, 11:34 AM

Keith
I have installed a few, mainly for folks that wanted the Korean TV. There's 3 from one azimuth and two more not far off that direction. Dish and receivers are cheap, and there's lots of options in the way of mounts and motors to move them. Tons of free stuff, depends on what your interests are. Lyngsat.com has a lot of info. Be sure to read the legend at the bottom of each page, which will indicate which ones are free and unencrypted, and what flavor of dish. If you get into big dish, C-band stuff, there's even more free stuff.
One of my customers has 4DTV HD setup, as well as Direct AND Dish. You could spend days just reading the guides to figure what's on at any one time!!
Dan

Cool, thanks for the thoughts and tips.. I will probably play around as I gather equipment for cheap or free... I don't think I could pull of C-Band though (even though that would be fun I am sure), not enough backyard (or a willing wife!)!
Best,
-Keith

KR7L

11-10-08, 10:24 AM

Whidbey

11-10-08, 12:15 PM

I have a DTV box to allow the DTV stations to be recorded on my VHS VCR. My question is: Should I feed the OTA RF signal to my HDTV receiver from a 2-way splitter or from the RF pass-through from the DTV box to the VCR and then to the HDTV? Which would be better? I am somewhat on the fringe being 22 miles from 9,11 and 24 miles from 4,5,7,16 and some signals are marginal right now. BTW the most distant at 38 miles is 13, which comes in great.
Richard

It depends on how well your DTV box passes the signal. Experiment and go with whatever works best. Here's some info on splitters: http://blog.dtvrules.com/2008/08/12/its-all-about-the-bandwidth.aspx

DanKurts

11-10-08, 11:51 PM

I have a DTV box to allow the DTV stations to be recorded on my VHS VCR. My question is: Should I feed the OTA RF signal to my HDTV receiver from a 2-way splitter or from the RF pass-through from the DTV box to the VCR and then to the HDTV? Which would be better? I am somewhat on the fringe being 22 miles from 9,11 and 24 miles from 4,5,7,16 and some signals are marginal right now. BTW the most distant at 38 miles is 13, which comes in great.
Richard

Richard
Need clarification.
Is the DTV box & HDTV receiver the same thing?
Is the VCR analog only?
Does the VCR have audio/video inputs and outputs or only ch3?
Does the TV have an HD tuner?
Does the TV have HD audio/video inputs?
Dan

KR7L

11-11-08, 10:38 AM

Richard
Need clarification.
Is the DTV box & HDTV receiver the same thing?
---
No the DTV is a Zenith DTT901 and the receiver is a Samsung LN37A550. The DTV is only used for the VCR.
---
Is the VCR analog only?
Does the VCR have audio/video inputs and outputs or only ch3?
---
Yes, the Panasonic PV-VS4820 is analog only but has both A/V inputs and outputs (composite and s-video) (but the TV's one s-video is used for the Dish receiver).
---
Does the TV have an HD tuner?
Does the TV have HD audio/video inputs?
---
Yes and yes.

Dan

THANKS for the good questions.

I have since come to realize that if I daisy chain the RF through the DTV box and the VCR that I will loose signal to the TV when the DTV box is ON. But that is not much of a problem because when I want to record OTA we will probably not be wanting to watch another OTA program. 90% of our viewing is from the Dish.

The FCC said they wanted <1 dB loss from a DTV box with analog pass through but that it could be as much as 4 dB. I suspect that the Panasonic is pretty good but I do not know about the Zenith.

Richard

RentonOTA

11-12-08, 03:25 PM

DanKurts

11-13-08, 03:33 AM

When the weather gets a bit better I'd like to install my CM 4221 antenna close to or on top of a six foot mast that I'm using for a very small omni-FM (currently) at the top and a UHF corner reflector yagi (mounted half-way up and will remove). The mast is side mounted to a structure with six feet extending above the roof line, the brackets holding the mast at the bottom are spaced about one and a half feet apart. So far this has worked just fine for many years.

However if I'm able to get the CM 4221 on the very top of the mast, that would extend the mast hight above the roof line to eight feet and I'm sure the new UHF antenna will increase the wind load a bit.

My question is how would antenna shake effect DTV signals? I haven't noticed any problem with analog broadcasts. Is DTV more picky about it ones and zeros?

Thanks

RentonOTA
If the antenna is moving enough to cause reception problems, don't worry. It won't be doing it for very long !
The 4221 does have a fair amount of windload, considering it's small size. Also, you don't really need to have it more than a few feet above your roof. Leave the FM on the top, and move the brackets farther apart. For a 10ft mast of 16 gauge metal, 6ft above the top bracket with the bottom bracket at the end of the mast is better. Movement on your antenna, if done right, should be basically zip. Reception suffers more from things moving in front of the antenna, like trees moving in the wind.
Take your time with the install, make it strong, and it will be trouble free years.
Dan

KR7L

11-14-08, 06:17 PM

It depends on how well your DTV box passes the signal. Experiment and go with whatever works best. Here's some info on splitters: http://blog.dtvrules.com/2008/08/12/its-all-about-the-bandwidth.aspx

After some rudimentary tests using the TV's signal strength meter, here are some results. There are three scenarios: direct antenna input to the TV; antenna through a 5-1000 MHz 2-way splitter; antenna through the daisy chain of DTV STB, VCR, to TV. Signal values are out of a possible 10 bars.

Freq....Chan...Direct....Splitter...Daisy Chain
497.....13-1.....7/10.....6/10.....5/10
574.....16-1.....7/10.....6/10.....2/10
623......7-1......5/10.....4/10.....1/10

The antenna was a simple home-made coat-hanger four-bay dipole described on Kelly's Blog and positioned near the TV:
http://blog.dtvrules.com/2008/08/27/free-bow-tie-dtv-antenna.aspx

Richard

Spike89

11-14-08, 08:36 PM

TV Technology had an interesting article this month about building your own Gray-Hoverman antenna. Similar to the home-brew bowtie...

Here is the article from May that introduced it:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68436

Here is the article this month that has pictures of user builds and some anecdotal info about performance:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68820

schematic (http://www.xmtr.com/articles/RF182-fig1.pdf)
additional info on the design (http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/index.htm)

http://www.tvtechnology.com/uploadedImages/TV_Technology/The_Reference_Room/f-DOUG2.jpg

RentonOTA

11-15-08, 01:50 AM

allen98311

11-15-08, 03:43 AM

DanKurts

11-16-08, 06:07 AM

Thanks Dan for the advice on keeping my existing FM antenna on the top of the mast. How many inches separation below the FM antenna should the top of the CM 4221 reflector grid be?

Now that I've only got a couple of weeks to see about my 2nd coupon for a DTV converter box for my VCR, the suggestions from some of the group about getting a DTT901 or a CM 7000 seem sound. FRY's at Renton has both of them (I can't seem to find a TR-40 CRA locally) so I've looked at those two. Now the question is what kind of audio do they output? Dolby stereo or Dolby surround? If my APEX 502 manual for my first converter can be trusted it will output Dolby surround.

Thanks in advance for all the great advice from the group.

Doug

Doug
Keep separation about 1/4 wavelength of lowest FM ch, or about 30", give or take. Not critical.
As mentioned above by allen98311, they are stereo out only. If your receiver can do Dolby, you will get some surround from stereo. It might get annoying at times, depending on how the station or program encodes it and the levels are.
If you want surround and HD, step up to the Samsung H260. It has everything. Can also down convert. Cost a bit more, but worth it when you step up to a HD TV. It is a better tuner than what comes in the TV's.
Otherwise, I lean to the CM7000, as it tunred out to have better sensitivity, by about 6 db.
Dan

organikeith

11-17-08, 11:22 AM

Moonus

11-17-08, 04:20 PM

A few weeks back I posted a note with some questions about the post-transition broadcast antenna placements/powerlevels/frequencies for a couple of the Seattle-area broadcasters, (mostly about KOMO and KCPQ). In particular I'd been puzzled by poor reception of KOMO, even though I (basically) have line-of-sight to the transmitter and a fairly substantial antenna setup.

Well, I can report that I resolved my issue with KOMO. I was making some changes to my antenna setup this weekend and, while I was at it, *finally* got around to installing terminator caps on my (numerous) unused coax outlets, like I'd read about in this forum.

That, alone, fixed my issues with KOMO. Reception of 4.1 has gone from marginal (50 - 60%) to very strong (90 - 95%).

I read about it here, but let me say it again: Terminator caps!

Spike89

11-17-08, 07:09 PM

Well, I can report that I resolved my issue with KOMO. I was making some changes to my antenna setup this weekend and, while I was at it, *finally* got around to installing terminator caps on my (numerous) unused coax outlets, like I'd read about in this forum.

That, alone, fixed my issues with KOMO. Reception of 4.1 has gone from marginal (50 - 60%) to very strong (90 - 95%).s!

Were the unused outlets connected to your antenna, or were they just open on both ends? If they were connected to your antenna, that makes sense; if they were open, then that opens up a whole now interesting engineering discussion! :D (Like, were the unused cable runs acting like both giant receive antennae and passive radiators)

Jiminkirkland

11-17-08, 07:28 PM

allen98311

11-17-08, 08:12 PM

zyland

11-18-08, 01:00 AM

As so many have found out, after the installation of our "digital boxes" the use of our older VCR/DVD players/recorders is severely limited (and they will be unusable soon).

What solution is there? Is there a decent DVR (or combo with a VCR player) that will not "break the bank?" Is it better to record to hard drive or DVD? Just want to do the normal things like record an occasional OTA ballgame or news event.

Suggestions, please.

Thanks, Jiminkirkland
After I installed my digital to analog converter, I continued to use my Tivo Series 2. Antenna -> Converter box -> composite input of Tivo -> analog TV. The downside is that Tivo doesn't support these d2a boxes, so you have to manually change the channel on the converter box. It was more of a hassle than it was really worth, so I cancelled my Tivo subscription. I continue to use the Tivo as a way of recording the last 30 minutes. I no longer get any programming information but find it handy for fast forwarding purposes.

If Tivo ever adds support for d2a converters, I would be interested in subscribing again. Maybe this will be more of a priority for them after February 2009.

Follow up: When using a digital to analong converter with a series 2 Tivo, by default, you will only get OTA analog scheduling information (providing you subscribe to the Tivo service). But, if you configure the Tivo for cable instead of OTA, you will also get scheduling information for several of the OTA sub channels. Namely, 5-2 (NBC Weather Plus), 7-2 (RTN), 9-2 (V-Me), 9-3 (KCTS Create), 13-2 (AccuWeather), 42-1 (KWDK). The big drawback is that you have to change the channel manually.

thewarm

11-18-08, 08:28 PM

After I installed my digital to analog converter, I continued to use my Tivo Series 2. Antenna -> Converter box -> composite input of Tivo -> analog TV. The downside is that Tivo doesn't support these d2a boxes, so you have to manually change the channel on the converter box. It was more of a hassle than it was really worth, so I cancelled my Tivo subscription. I continue to use the Tivo as a way of recording the last 30 minutes. I no longer get any programming information but find it handy for fast forwarding purposes.

If Tivo ever adds support for d2a converters, I would be interested in subscribing again. Maybe this will be more of a priority for them after February 2009.

Follow up: When using a digital to analong converter with a series 2 Tivo, by default, you will only get OTA analog scheduling information (providing you subscribe to the Tivo service). But, if you configure the Tivo for cable instead of OTA, you will also get scheduling information for several of the OTA sub channels. Namely, 5-2 (NBC Weather Plus), 7-2 (RTN), 9-2 (V-Me), 9-3 (KCTS Create), 13-2 (AccuWeather), 42-1 (KWDK). The big drawback is that you have to change the channel manually.

I use a Channel Master CM-7000 D2A with my TiVo Series 2 (Sony SVR-3000). It works perfectly. It should be included in the Fall 2008 TiVo Service Update. :)
Priority List is here...
http://research.tivo.com/932priority/index.htm

buckfalfa

11-18-08, 09:01 PM

As so many have found out, after the installation of our "digital boxes" the use of our older VCR/DVD players/recorders is severely limited (and they will be unusable soon).

What solution is there? Is there a decent DVR (or combo with a VCR player) that will not "break the bank?" Is it better to record to hard drive or DVD? Just want to do the normal things like record an occasional OTA ballgame or news event.

Suggestions, please.

Thanks, Jiminkirkland

To continue using your old VCR, you can just feed it a signal from one of the new digital to analog converter boxes.

If you want to do timed VCR recordings, you can also consider buying one of the Digital Converter Boxes that allows for timed channel changes.

SolidSignal has the Zinwell (ConsumerReports highest-rated timer-controlled converter box) for .01 + shipping with the Gov't coupon. Kind of a pain to have to program another device in tandem with your VCR, but still an option (probably the cheapest, too.)
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ZAT-970A&main_cat=03&source=googleps

Bottom line: as long as you've got your new "digital boxes" you're all set to record the signal coming from them (i.e. the channel the converter box is tuned to) on your old analog devices.

Moonus

11-19-08, 02:16 PM

Were the unused outlets connected to your antenna, or were they just open on both ends? If they were connected to your antenna, that makes sense; if they were open, then that opens up a whole now interesting engineering discussion! :D (Like, were the unused cable runs acting like both giant receive antennae and passive radiators)

Hey Spike89, the unused outlets were connected to the antenna, so no grounds for an interesting engineering discussion, just the more typical "user error." ;)

I'd heard about unterminated line signal reflection in this forum, but it hadn't sunk in as a big factor. In my defense, I had previously tried out connecting my antenna line directly to one of the lines going to a TV (to bypass an 8-way splitter, which I had suspected as a big source of signal loss) and hadn't noticed a significant change in signal level at the TV. However, during that experiment I had been focused on KCPQ, not KOMO. For whatever reason, fixing (or bypassing) the unterminated lines didn't have as much of an impact on ch. 18 as on ch. 38 and the other higher frequency channels.

But now you've got me thinking... Perhaps take all my spare parts and do-dads and assemble a giant receive antenna/radiator in my attic, focused on my antenna...

Kelly From KOMO

11-19-08, 07:12 PM

Hey Spike89, the unused outlets were connected to the antenna, so no grounds for an interesting engineering discussion, just the more typical "user error." ;)

I'd heard about unterminated line signal reflection in this forum, but it hadn't sunk in as a big factor. In my defense, I had previously tried out connecting my antenna line directly to one of the lines going to a TV (to bypass an 8-way splitter, which I had suspected as a big source of signal loss) and hadn't noticed a significant change in signal level at the TV. However, during that experiment I had been focused on KCPQ, not KOMO. For whatever reason, fixing (or bypassing) the unterminated lines didn't have as much of an impact on ch. 18 as on ch. 38 and the other higher frequency channels.

But now you've got me thinking... Perhaps take all my spare parts and do-dads and assemble a giant receive antenna/radiator in my attic, focused on my antenna...

Actually the reason you want to terminate unused ports is because of the losses from impedance balance at each port.

The splitter is designed for an equal signal split to each port, (with a 3dB or 50% loss of signal at each port/split). The designed bandwidth of the splitter and loss at each port is assuming each port is terminated at 75 ohms. Leaving one or more ports open causes the resistance and reactance balance between ports to shift beyond designed parameters. The result may be increased loss to certain, or all frequencies that pass through the splitter. It could also change the total loss well past the average 3dB per split.

The aforementioned reason is why I recommend only using a splitter with the number of ports you need. Remember, if you use a 8X splitter with only two active ports, the losses through the splitter assume 8X, not 2X, even with terminated unused ports. If you want only 2X losses in the split, only use a 2X splitter.

DanKurts

11-19-08, 09:23 PM

Hey Spike89, the unused outlets were connected to the antenna, so no grounds for an interesting engineering discussion, just the more typical "user error." ;)

I'd heard about unterminated line signal reflection in this forum, but it hadn't sunk in as a big factor. In my defense, I had previously tried out connecting my antenna line directly to one of the lines going to a TV (to bypass an 8-way splitter, which I had suspected as a big source of signal loss) and hadn't noticed a significant change in signal level at the TV. However, during that experiment I had been focused on KCPQ, not KOMO. For whatever reason, fixing (or bypassing) the unterminated lines didn't have as much of an impact on ch. 18 as on ch. 38 and the other higher frequency channels.

But now you've got me thinking... Perhaps take all my spare parts and do-dads and assemble a giant receive antenna/radiator in my attic, focused on my antenna...

Moonus
The problem of unterminated lines is really important for signals close to the towers. I grew up on Queen Anne hill. In the old twin lead days, you could have problems by simply rearranging the lead in behind the TV. We used to drive my friends dad nuts by twisting and looping the extra length behind the couch. The lead in is supposed to get signal from the antenna to the the device, not act as an antenna. But it happens if not done right.

Also, unterminated coax lines receive only tiny amounts of signals. As Kelley mentioned, it unbalances the splitting action with wierd results, depending on frequency. What really is significant is the open lines act as tuned traps. The signal runs down the line and "bounces" back, but 180 out of phase. Depending on the length, when it hits the signal coming the other way, they cancel. Not all cancel, just those at the right frequency, or wavelength. You can actually make a channel trap by running signal in a two way splitter, with the out leg going to your tuner or TV. On the other leg, connect a piece of coax a few inches longer than the 1/4 wavelength of the channel you want to eliminate. For example, ch4, KOMO analog is about 44", so cut the length about 46". Tune your TV to ch4, then start snipping 1/4" pieces of cable off and you will see it disappear when you get close. Other channels will usually still work fine. It's not a really good reliable trap, but it proves the point.
To find the 1/4 wavelength, here's a calculator. Not perfect, as there are many other factors to make it technically dead on, but it will get you close.
http://home.comcast.net/~olneytj/wavecalc.htm

Dan

buckfalfa

11-20-08, 04:36 PM

Whidbey

11-20-08, 05:03 PM

Kind of off-topic, but is anyone here going to be picking up the DTVPal DVR (formerly known as the EchoStar TR-50)?

I pre-ordered one for my folks in N.H. yesterday (seemed like the perfect DVR for their needs vs. a HTPC.) Am anxious to hear about any Seattle area users' experiences when they get theirs, or if anyone had even been considering picking one up.

I'm holding off for now, just to see how things go with the early adopters. I'm hoping the fact that it has user upgradable software may help deal with some of the inevitable bugs early on.

Moonus

11-20-08, 05:48 PM

Moonus
The problem of unterminated lines is really important for signals close to the towers. ....
http://home.comcast.net/~olneytj/wavecalc.htm

Dan

Thank you, Dan and Spike, for the informative responses. My wife came back from a trip last night, and I hoped to show her that KOMO was now coming in fine (she's lobbying for cable -- I just don't want that many channels).

Much to my chagrin, I find that KOMO still comes in fairly strong (around 70%) but periodically (perhaps even cyclically) the signal fluctuates, disappears entirely for a few seconds, and then comes back, full strength (70%). This total drop-out hadn't happened previously. I would estimate that there is a total drop-out at least once every 1 or 2 minutes.

Reorienting the antenna didn't change things and the drop-out was only noticeable on KOMO. In the few minutes I had before I had to leave the house this AM for work, I tried turning on my second DTV converter box (connected to a different TV), thinking that maybe when it was powered off, it left the coax in an essentially unterminated state. This did *seem* to fix the problem (on the first TV), though I really didn't have much time to make sure.

This leads to my question: If an antenna-coax line is attached to a device which is turned off, such as a VCR, an analogue TV, a DTV converter box, etc., is it like leaving the coax unterminated? Does it depend on the equipment?

allen98311

11-20-08, 08:37 PM

DanKurts

11-21-08, 09:12 PM

Thank you, Dan and Spike, for the informative responses. My wife came back from a trip last night, and I hoped to show her that KOMO was now coming in fine (she's lobbying for cable -- I just don't want that many channels).

Much to my chagrin, I find that KOMO still comes in fairly strong (around 70%) but periodically (perhaps even cyclically) the signal fluctuates, disappears entirely for a few seconds, and then comes back, full strength (70%). This total drop-out hadn't happened previously. I would estimate that there is a total drop-out at least once every 1 or 2 minutes.

Reorienting the antenna didn't change things and the drop-out was only noticeable on KOMO. In the few minutes I had before I had to leave the house this AM for work, I tried turning on my second DTV converter box (connected to a different TV), thinking that maybe when it was powered off, it left the coax in an essentially unterminated state. This did *seem* to fix the problem (on the first TV), though I really didn't have much time to make sure.

This leads to my question: If an antenna-coax line is attached to a device which is turned off, such as a VCR, an analogue TV, a DTV converter box, etc., is it like leaving the coax unterminated? Does it depend on the equipment?

Moonus
As long as the cable is connected, it's terminated. Powering the device off or on shouldn't make any difference. If it does, then it's got problems.

As mentioned before, your "strength" indicator is not actual level. More similar to signal to noise ratio. You are most likely right on the edge of minimum required levels for KOMO. Digital only does ON or OFF. As long as it can lock on, it's great. There's also the problem of having the signal chopped up or uneven when viewed on a scope, even though you might have plenty of level. Either can cause your problem.
And, there's a small possibility your antenna is just not adequate for the problems unique to your location.
All this makes diagnosis difficult, if not frustrating. Patience and persistence will out, though.
Dan

stampeder

11-22-08, 03:28 AM

Wow! Looks cool!
I may have to build one of these and give it a try.
Who knows, manufacturers may bring this back onto the market with it being perfectly tuned for Feb 17th UHF Frequency line up.
Thanks Spike89The Gray-Hoverman antenna is free, not something that manufacturers can sit on or make decisions about for you. :) It is not equivalent to home made bowties - it smokes them easily, and we will gladly prove it.

I'm one of the guys who helped develop it, and I'm building my second SBGH to join the 2 as a DBGH for getting Seattle and Tacoma stations from my location southeast of Vancouver, BC.

Enjoy the Gray-Hoverman - its yours and mine! :D

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982

Saying hello to Whidbey too!

organikeith

11-24-08, 04:06 PM

The Gray-Hoverman antenna is free, not something that manufacturers can sit on or make decisions about for you. :) It is not equivalent to home made bowties - it smokes them easily, and we will gladly prove it.

I'm one of the guys who helped develop it, and I'm building my second SBGH to join the 2 as a DBGH for getting Seattle and Tacoma stations from my location southeast of Vancouver, BC.

Enjoy the Gray-Hoverman - its yours and mine! :D

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982

Saying hello to Whidbey too!

Thanks Stampeder,
I was actually up in Vancouver over the weekend. Good times!
Great info, I'll have to get going on building one after Christmas...
Best,
organikeith

organikeith

11-24-08, 04:33 PM

The Gray-Hoverman antenna is free, not something that manufacturers can sit on or make decisions about for you. :) It is not equivalent to home made bowties - it smokes them easily, and we will gladly prove it.

I'm one of the guys who helped develop it, and I'm building my second SBGH to join the 2 as a DBGH for getting Seattle and Tacoma stations from my location southeast of Vancouver, BC.

Enjoy the Gray-Hoverman - its yours and mine! :D

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982

Saying hello to Whidbey too!

Hey Stampeder,
The AntennaCraft design looks very similar to the designs on the Gray-Hoverman site.
Have you tried one of these? How do they compare in your opinion?
Link below

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-8-bay-uhf-antenna-hdtv-guaranteed-to-out-perform-all-other-outdoor-18-elements-tv-aerial-for-local-offair-digital-fringe-reception-red-zone-part-super-g1483-with-coaxial-cable-p-6356.html

Thanks,
-Keith

stampeder

11-24-08, 07:34 PM

Ya those AntennaCraft designs and the old Radio Shack ones are based on the original Hoverman, which is based on an obscure short wave radio antenna design. Nobody makes them anymore - that's just old stock at Summit Source.

We've computer modeled them and they're not so great - they aren't nearly as good as the GH. ;)

Yesterday a major update to the GH was announced and now the performance is even better:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982

quarque

11-27-08, 09:05 PM

Hey Dan - how about you pick up or make one of these GH things and give us an A-B comparison with the the 4221 etc. when you can?

DanKurts

11-28-08, 12:10 AM

Hey Dan - how about you pick up or make one of these GH things and give us an A-B comparison with the the 4221 etc. when you can?

quarque
If I had the time, sure. Always up to try out another one that looks promising.
I had an original one a few years ago, wasn't that great, no where near a 4221. I'll add it to my list. Maybe in February after the Super Bowl, when things get back to just regular crazy!
If someone makes one, and wants to come over, I'll be glad to test it with my meter and against my 4221.
Dan

stampeder

11-28-08, 02:10 PM

I had an original one a few years ago, wasn't that great, no where near a 4221.The original Hoverman doesn't hold a candle to our version.

Today we're talking realistically about reaching the 20dB gain barrier as a design goal of certain versions of the Gray-Hoverman project. We're already very close. :) quarque, you and everyone are welcome to track our progress and see the A-B tests - there are lots of them from all over North America.

I'm going to be building one of the GH versions for getting Seattle and Tacoma stations up here with my big old CM1111 for the VHF-HIs and FM Radio stations.

stampeder

11-29-08, 01:19 PM

quarque

12-01-08, 12:30 AM

thanks stampeder. I suspect you are right about anyone down here getting BC digitals, although nothing is impossible. I set up a portable system a couple years back east of Wenatchee on a 2500-foot hill to see what we could get. My friend in Wenatchee is a ham and is always interested in DXing, in any form. We used a Radio Shack 15-2160 antenna and a Samsung SIR-T150 receiver, all run out of the back end of my SUV using an inverter. To our amazement we pulled in stations near Spokane at 115 miles. Of course those were some big boys near the 1 Mega Watt power level. But even so, 115 miles is pretty impressive with an antenna rated for 50 miles max. It's all about elevation and power - if you have both, you have a chance. So some lucky guy on a hill around here *might* get something, but I wouldn't place any bets on it. That experiment was with a 1-gen receiver and the newer chipsets do remarkable things by comparison. I can pull in local stations with a paper clip on the back of a new d2a box.

Will BC stations ever boost their power?

Is there a commercially-produced GH available, or will there be one soon?

seatacboy

12-01-08, 09:29 AM

Just to clear up something that a person mentioned in another thread, it won't be possible for Seattle-Tacoma area folks to "reverse" what I'm doing for the U.S. stations by building a GH variant for getting the Canadian digital stations. Sad to say that the ERP levels of the Vancouver, BC stations are much lower than the SeaTac stations, so I expect that people south of Mt. Vernon and likely even people a bit north of there are not going to get the Canadian digitals. Stampeder: I think part of the problem is a 1994 U.S.-Canada Broadcasting Treaty. That treaty required all new analog or digital stations within the "Border Zone" to specifically engineer their transmission patterns to minimize spillover into the other country. Existing analog stations were grandfathered.

I've read elsewhere that the Vancouver BC digital TV transmitters are at a much lower height on the Mt. Seymour towers (at least 200 metres) than the analog transmitters. If true, this lower HAAT combined with the ERP would explain why many Puget Sound areas which receive analogue CBUT-TV and CHAN-TV will not receive CBUT-DT and CHAN-DT.

rdn

12-01-08, 09:52 AM

organikeith

12-01-08, 03:17 PM

The original Hoverman doesn't hold a candle to our version.

Today we're talking realistically about reaching the 20dB gain barrier as a design goal of certain versions of the Gray-Hoverman project. We're already very close. :) quarque, you and everyone are welcome to track our progress and see the A-B tests - there are lots of them from all over North America.

I'm going to be building one of the GH versions for getting Seattle and Tacoma stations up here with my big old CM1111 for the VHF-HIs and FM Radio stations.

Hi Stampeder,,
My son and I are going to try to build the GH6 to the Jedisoft specs for a school science project to see if it will out perform the cm 4221 I am currently using. Just picked up some 1/8 inch aluminum wire to get started..(I would use copper, but I am concerned about oxidation) Testing at this point will only be with our digi tuners.

Dan,
If it comes out good, I may be the guy that comes over to compare after the SuperBowl! (we are going to take our time building as things are crazy these days...)
-organikeith

quarque

12-01-08, 09:05 PM

Hi Stampeder,,
My son and I are going to try to build the GH6 to the Jedisoft specs for a school science project to see if it will out perform the cm 4221 I am currently using. Just picked up some 1/8 inch aluminum wire to get started..(I would use copper, but I am concerned about oxidation) Testing at this point will only be with our digi tuners.
...

Keep in mind that aluminum also oxidizes and that copper has the advantage of accepting soldered connections. Whatever you use, clean it well and make sure you get a "gas tight" connection if not soldered. Also remember that dissimilar metals will react over time causing connection impedances etc. So, an all-copper soldered system would be best IMHO. Of course this may be all moot if it is not intended for a long-term outdoor installation. :)

DanKurts

12-01-08, 11:53 PM

Hi Stampeder,,
My son and I are going to try to build the GH6 to the Jedisoft specs for a school science project to see if it will out perform the cm 4221 I am currently using. Just picked up some 1/8 inch aluminum wire to get started..(I would use copper, but I am concerned about oxidation) Testing at this point will only be with our digi tuners.

Dan,
If it comes out good, I may be the guy that comes over to compare after the SuperBowl! (we are going to take our time building as things are crazy these days...)
-organikeith

organikeith
Deal.
Call when ready, 206-794-3993
Dan

organikeith

12-02-08, 01:12 PM

Keep in mind that aluminum also oxidizes and that copper has the advantage of accepting soldered connections. Whatever you use, clean it well and make sure you get a "gas tight" connection if not soldered. Also remember that dissimilar metals will react over time causing connection impedances etc. So, an all-copper soldered system would be best IMHO. Of course this may be all moot if it is not intended for a long-term outdoor installation. :)

Hi quarque,
Thanks for the tips..makes sense. If it does indeed out perform my 4221 then yes I would like to build it for long term outdoor use.
I would think the copper would turn green in the rain right away around here, wouldn't I have to clean it or replace elements every year?
I already have 22 feet of 4 aught aluminum wire (that I will be stripping and dividing the 1/8 inch wires into driving and reflecting elements)...and have a buddy who is an electrician so free copper wire is usually a phone call away on a good day.
Let me know if you think the difference will be significant enough and I'll see if i can score some from him before I go shopping.
Best,
-Keith

organikeith

12-02-08, 01:23 PM

organikeith

12-02-08, 01:25 PM

organikeith
Deal.
Call when ready, 206-794-3993
Dan

Will do...it will be fun to share the results.
-Keith

quarque

12-02-08, 09:19 PM

Hi quarque,
Thanks for the tips..makes sense. If it does indeed out perform my 4221 then yes I would like to build it for long term outdoor use.
I would think the copper would turn green in the rain right away around here, wouldn't I have to clean it or replace elements every year?
I already have 22 feet of 4 aught aluminum wire (that I will be stripping and dividing the 1/8 inch wires into driving and reflecting elements)...and have a buddy who is an electrician so free copper wire is usually a phone call away on a good day.
Let me know if you think the difference will be significant enough and I'll see if i can score some from him before I go shopping.
Best,
-Keith

The tarnish on the copper does not affect the performance as an antenna as long as the connections are not affected. Soldering is the sure-fire way to ensure that. Your aluminum will work just fine. You just need to take care in making connections to it. Perhaps even use some silicone or some of that rubbery goop they sell for automotive use to seal the connections as your final step. If the copper is cheap and easy then go for it. BTW, you'll need a high-wattage iron to solder big stuff or one of those propane-fired jobs. Use emory cloth to clean the copper and some paste flux to get the solder sticking. Pre-tin each area first then make the connections. Make sure it is plenty hot because a cold-soldered connection is very undesirable in RF work.

stampeder

12-03-08, 02:30 AM

DanKurts

12-03-08, 02:36 AM

Just thought I would share...
I asked Dan a while back whether moving my CM 7777 amplifier closer to my antenna would make any difference in reception.. (he said "no not much")
I thought I would try it anyway and my reception actually got a little worse!

Anyway I don't have any real data, but I am finding that I am getting better performance out of my CM 7777 with it positioned about 6-7 feet down my antenna mast vs. having it around a foot or so away from the output connections on my CM 4221.
So if you are using one, try it lower down, you might just get better reception!
organikeith

organikeith
What you're experiencing is a combination of several things. The most likely reason for the change is the fact you're working with very weak signals. You're tuner is doing well to pull out the signals, but it's still tough. The 7777 amplifies everything, bad and good. When the signal levels are weak, with no one major or strong one around, it's internal AGC will turn up a bit. Small variations in the overall signal (it's 6mhz wide) can look huge to a tuner that's working in the mud. Another effect can get mixed in as well where the cable from the antenna to the preamp can start to act as a tunable trap at certain frequencies. Normally a good strong signal will override these things enough that the tuner will have no problem locking on.
The other thing that you might want to double check is all your connections and fittings. A loose fitting can cause wierd results. Also, one of the most common troubles I see on 4221's is not securing the balun to the main boom. If you leave it and the cable loose, it can twist itself together. Even a small amount can do phase cancellation. As you play around with the antenna, it's easy to allow it to happen. Again, giving problems.
Here's a picture of the balun. Below it, I've taped it so it can't twist the balun wires.
The more consistent you can keep everything, the better you'll be able to sort things out.
Dan

DanKurts

12-03-08, 03:17 AM

Answering a few folks at once here:

The digital situation in Canada is not nearly as clear as in the U.S. so we don't have hard facts on the future ERP levels of our stations. Its all a big work in progress, and its frustrating. The official Letter Of Understanding (LOU) between Industry Canada and the FCC regarding TV broadcasting and the digital transition is from 2000, but there is a 2008 one on the table that Canada has not signed yet. The people I talk with there say its politicians who are holding everything up. :mad:

On Mt. Seymour the digital antennas are co-located with the analogues, so the HAAT is the same or pretty close. For instance, CBUT is at 593 metres while CBUT-DT is at 615. CIVT and CIVT-DT are from the same tower at 740 metres. CHAN is at 670 and CHAN-DT is at 715. I think there might have been a mistake in what you read, seatacboy.

About the GH antenna, we tell people to be aware of the galvanic corrosion that can happen when you mix metals, so quarque is absolutely right that you should try to stay with an all-copper build. Testing shows that tarnish does not affect the reception.

If you check the GH site you'll find lots of direct comparisons from across North America between various GH models and various commercial antennas, including the CM4221. The GH keeps winning, and we like that. ;) If for some odd reason Dan's CM4221 outperforms the GH for sheer raw and net gain I'd be shocked, and I'd definitely want to know some details because we have not seen that happen. The numbers speak for themselves.

The latest project is the XGH and its already getting 18.5dB gain in the middle of the UHF band where KIRO and KOMO live, with a bell-curve dropoff towards KING at about 14dB. We figure we can get over 20dB in the middle of the UHF band with further work.

stampeder
I looked into reception from Vancouver last year for a customer on Camano. The site I found was this
http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations/BC.html
How does that compare with the site you use?
Also, the HAAT is not really as important as AMSL, height above mean sea level. KNTV in San Jose used to be on Loma Prieta mountain. It's since moved to a better spot, but it's HAAT was about 100 meters. It's actual elevation was about 1200 meters. There's a lot of rolling hills all around it, so it averages out low. It would be great to find the AMSL data on Canadian stations.

I wish I had the time to check out your design, sounds good. Keep at it. The one thing I've found is you never know what crazy tweak will give great results, so nothing is sacred. Hey, pour a little Molsons over it, saving the rest for, uhh, Science, yeah that's the ticket.
Dan

organikeith

12-03-08, 10:37 AM

The tarnish on the copper does not affect the performance as an antenna as long as the connections are not affected. Soldering is the sure-fire way to ensure that. Your aluminum will work just fine. You just need to take care in making connections to it. Perhaps even use some silicone or some of that rubbery goop they sell for automotive use to seal the connections as your final step. If the copper is cheap and easy then go for it. BTW, you'll need a high-wattage iron to solder big stuff or one of those propane-fired jobs. Use emory cloth to clean the copper and some paste flux to get the solder sticking. Pre-tin each area first then make the connections. Make sure it is plenty hot because a cold-soldered connection is very undesirable in RF work.

Ah, welding... reminds me of my high school metal shop days having fun with the mig welder and watching solar eclipses with the helmet.
Thanks again for the tips.. (you too stampeder).. time to see if I can scrounge some copper wire and start building this bad boy!

organikeith

12-03-08, 10:51 AM

organikeith
What you're experiencing is a combination of several things. The most likely reason for the change is the fact you're working with very weak signals. You're tuner is doing well to pull out the signals, but it's still tough. The 7777 amplifies everything, bad and good. When the signal levels are weak, with no one major or strong one around, it's internal AGC will turn up a bit. Small variations in the overall signal (it's 6mhz wide) can look huge to a tuner that's working in the mud. Another effect can get mixed in as well where the cable from the antenna to the preamp can start to act as a tunable trap at certain frequencies. Normally a good strong signal will override these things enough that the tuner will have no problem locking on.
The other thing that you might want to double check is all your connections and fittings. A loose fitting can cause wierd results. Also, one of the most common troubles I see on 4221's is not securing the balun to the main boom. If you leave it and the cable loose, it can twist itself together. Even a small amount can do phase cancellation. As you play around with the antenna, it's easy to allow it to happen. Again, giving problems.
Here's a picture of the balun. Below it, I've taped it so it can't twist the balun wires.
The more consistent you can keep everything, the better you'll be able to sort things out.
Dan

Once again Dan, you are a handy resource...
I did notice a tendency for the balun twisting on my initial install kept a pretty good eye on that. All connections are snug as a bug too..:)
It's defniately a mixed bag when it comes to working with this stuff.. Probably why it's so easy to get hooked!
Like a slot machine, one never knows when they are going to hit the jackpot (better signal, new channel etc..) but they have to keep trying till you run out of time and money! :D

stampeder

12-03-08, 12:32 PM

stampeder
I looked into reception from Vancouver last year for a customer on Camano. The site I found was this
http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations/BC.html
How does that compare with the site you use?One and the same, its my page. ;) I wrote a data pump program that downloads the Industry Canada TV database form Ottawa and processes it for my site. The info in there about the Canadian stations is fresh and accurate, but ICs info on the U.S. stations is way out of sync with the FCC's so is not to be taken literally.

http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations

Also I keep an eye on Gord Lansdell's great Northwest Broadcasters site:

http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/

rjcarr316

12-03-08, 08:46 PM

DanKurts

12-04-08, 03:30 AM

rdn

12-04-08, 10:57 AM

Not sure where to post this but I'm hoping for some guidance.

I receive programming from Seattle OTA but for some reason I get great reception on KING5 but poor reception on KOMO4.

Checking both atennaweb.org and antennapoint.com both stations broadcast from the same direction, same distance, and reasonably same power (KOMO actually slightly stronger), yet for KING my reception is in the 90s but for KOMO it is only in the 50s and often drops below 50 (which seems to be the number that makes it cut out).

I previously used a Terk HDTVo and now I'm using a Clearstream2. The Terk came in a bit better (when amplified) but the disparity between the stations was still present.

Any idea what is going on?

I have a similar situation, but it is probably my location. I don't know about KING, but KOMO's UHF antenna is down on one side of the tower so the signal is reduced quite a bit to the west. If it weren't for some trees (which are part of the problem), I could probably see the towers from my roof. I tried a couple of different antennas and found a few spots on my roof where KOMO was (barely) acceptable but signals from some of the other stations suffered. Fortunately Directv finally started carrying KOMO and I didn't have to deal with that anymore.

rjcarr316

12-04-08, 12:35 PM

rjcarr316
Could be terrain, your location, the antenna, your tuner, or the difference in frequencies, or all the above.
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

Thanks Dan, but my point is, the two stations should be broadcasting from the same exact location (the space needle, I think). How could terrain or location play into that? As I said, with KING I get in the 90s and with KOMO I get in the 50s.

To answer your question, I live near 212th St SW and 84th Ave W (in Edmonds). The antenna is probably about 25ft in the air.

DanKurts

12-05-08, 03:18 AM

Thanks Dan, but my point is, the two stations should be broadcasting from the same exact location (the space needle, I think). How could terrain or location play into that? As I said, with KING I get in the 90s and with KOMO I get in the 50s.

To answer your question, I live near 212th St SW and 84th Ave W (in Edmonds). The antenna is probably about 25ft in the air.

rjcarr316
Ch's 4,5,7 & 16 all come from the top of Queen Anne hill, and are all within about 5 blocks of each other. Your biggest problem there is about 5 miles of trees, all the way to 140th. They act like filters, blocking some signals more than others, and affecting the frequencies differently. Every survey or install I've done along that general path has been ugly. Even if you got a 100% on your indicator, the signal would still be chopped up. It's a huge signal, in KOMO's case from 614 to 620mhz, and it all needs to get there in about the same level or amount. When viewed on a scope or analyzer, it should have a fairly flat sweep. If it looks jagged with peaks and valleys, the decoder has a hard time locking on. That's usually the main problem there. As I mentioned, it could be other things. The numbers on your strength indicator are really measuring the tuner and decoders ability to lock on, not real strength as measured in db's with a meter. Your signal on ch5 could be very weak or quite strong, and still read the same number, as long as it was within your tuners ability and range. That's what makes it tough to diagnose problems. Changes made don't always reflect actual improvements. I assume you've already twisted the daylights out of the antenna. What I found was location could get really fussy. Move the antenna a foot to the right, left or anywhere else and you would see big changes. And don't forget to try lower. Many times you can do better by going under trees nearby. What ever you try, do it s-l-o-w-l-y. It takes a few seconds for the decoder to lock.
Dan