OK Chris, Larry (quarque) suggested to me when I asked, to use an amp with adjustable gain. So you don't overpower the signals that are already strong. I don't have any names, sorry!

Lance, are you deadset against mounting outdoors? (have we been over this a few pages back?) I suspect bow tie antennas are very susceptible to multipath.

Originally posted by weebling1
I suspect bow tie antennas are very susceptible to multipath.

Depends on what type of bowtie. The CM4228 8-bay bowtie is very directional and is thus very good at rejecting multipath. The fewer the bowties in the array the less directional the antenna gets.

Hi all, I'm new here, was wondering if Larry could wave his magic TOPO wand and check Education Hill in Redmond, 166th Ave NE and NE104th St. and see what it says. Thanks Larry

Originally posted by weebling1
Lance, are you deadset against mounting outdoors? (have we been over this a few pages back?) I suspect bow tie antennas are very susceptible to multipath.

Not deadset against it, but there is not a place on the roof that would suit an antenna easily. That and the front of my house faces south, so anyone who drove into the cul de sac would notice it right away.

-Lance

I'm looking for some input on OTA in my area... I live close to 123rd PL SW, and Gibson Rd. in Everett. Actually its closer to Mukilteo... Anyway I'm near Paine Field and am wondering if that would cause any problems. I'm looking into getting the Dish 811 reciever and getting the locals OTA. The thing is, I don't want to buy the 811 and then find out I can't get the locals, or the locals don't come in that well. I'd rather go with Comcast to get the locals in HD if that was the case.
The guys at the local Radio Shack say that the amplified "rabit ears" that they sell works for this area. Is that true?

Thanks,
Heath

Originally posted by IBTRKN
Hi all, I'm new here, was wondering if Larry could wave his magic TOPO wand and check Education Hill in Redmond, 166th Ave NE and NE104th St. and see what it says. Thanks Larry

Harold - you're in luck. No hills in the way. Merry Xmas!

Larry

Originally posted by heatho
I'm looking for some input on OTA in my area... I live close to 123rd PL SW, and Gibson Rd. in Everett. Actually its closer to Mukilteo... Anyway I'm near Paine Field and am wondering if that would cause any problems. I'm looking into getting the Dish 811 reciever and getting the locals OTA. The thing is, I don't want to buy the 811 and then find out I can't get the locals, or the locals don't come in that well. I'd rather go with Comcast to get the locals in HD if that was the case.
The guys at the local Radio Shack say that the amplified "rabit ears" that they sell works for this area. Is that true?

Thanks,
Heath
Heath - your location is only slightly marginal due to a small hill to the south. If you put a good antenna on the roof you should have a good shot at OTA. I'd use the Channel Master 4228 since it seems to be the most successful in the 5-60 mile range. This does not mean the RS guys are wrong, but I would make sure you can get your money back if the rabbit comes up "deaf". You might have multipath problems from large buildings so the more directional the antenna the better. Again 4228 is very good there.

Larry

I finally got my set yesterday (LG LST-3510A, playing through a NEC HT1000 projector). My, is that pretty!

I also seem to have lucked out with my reception. I connected to the existing table top Radio Shack combo UHF/VHF in my basement, and lots of stations came in just great. I get 10 or 11 stations: 4, 5, 7, several flavors of 9, 11, 13, 16, and 22. Is there anything I'm missing that would make it worth going up to the roof (or even fiddling with my existing antenna)?

I'm on Capitol Hill, 16th Ave. E., just south of E. Aloha, by the way.

Originally posted by Grampa
I finally got my set yesterday (LG LST-3510A, playing through a NEC HT1000 projector). My, is that pretty!

I also seem to have lucked out with my reception. I connected to the existing table top Radio Shack combo UHF/VHF in my basement, and lots of stations came in just great. I get 10 or 11 stations: 4, 5, 7, several flavors of 9, 11, 13, 16, and 22. Is there anything I'm missing that would make it worth going up to the roof (or even fiddling with my existing antenna)?

I'm on Capitol Hill, 16th Ave. E., just south of E. Aloha, by the way.

No, you are getting it all! No need for a roof antenna unless you experience breakups over the next couple of weeks.

Nice ATSC tuner/DVD Player by the way... I have the LST-3100A and I really like it.

-Lance

Originally posted by Grampa
I get : 4, 5, 7, several flavors of 9, 11, 13, 16, and 22.
I'm on Capitol Hill, 16th Ave. E., just south of E. Aloha, by the way. [/B]

Just curious, what stations are 9 and 16?

Thanks,
Chris

9 = KCTS (PBS)
16 = KONG (Independent, sister station to KING 5)

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
No, you are getting it all! No need for a roof antenna unless you experience breakups over the next couple of weeks.
13 does break up sometimes, but I haven't tried repositioning the antenna. Besides, I don't thing there is really anything on that station I want to watch.

You're right about it being a great tuner. It's also a terrific DVD player. Tonight we watched the Criterion edition of Hitchcock's Spellbound. Just stunning in B&W on a 4:3 projector screen.

Hi All. Thanks for the help here. I've (finally) received my ST912S (Combo OTA, Cable & Satellite (Big Dish) Tuner for my HDTV Monitor. The CM 4221 I installed with advice here is pulling in the digital channels very nicely. I don't have need for the cable input, but the Satellite input is working fine too.

Thanks All!

Cliff

Originally posted by cliffcor
Hi All. Thanks for the help here. I've (finally) received my ST912S (Combo OTA, Cable & Satellite (Big Dish) Tuner for my HDTV Monitor. The CM 4221 I installed with advice here is pulling in the digital channels very nicely. I don't have need for the cable input, but the Satellite input is working fine too.

Thanks All!

Cliff
Cliff - that's great to hear. Just out of curiosity, where abouts are you located? Is the 4221 on a rotor or fixed mast? I like to know what sort of range people get with different antennas.

Larry

Originally posted by Grampa
I finally got my set yesterday (LG LST-3510A, playing through a NEC HT1000 projector). My, is that pretty!

I also seem to have lucked out with my reception. I connected to the existing table top Radio Shack combo UHF/VHF in my basement, and lots of stations came in just great. I get 10 or 11 stations: 4, 5, 7, several flavors of 9, 11, 13, 16, and 22. Is there anything I'm missing that would make it worth going up to the roof (or even fiddling with my existing antenna)?

I'm on Capitol Hill, 16th Ave. E., just south of E. Aloha, by the way.
I have been reading the opinions over in the Hardware forum on the 3510A. Almost everyone is raving about the ATSC tuner. It seems to lock in with very little signal and rejects multipath very well. Looks like you really got a winner there. It appears the latest generation of tuners really are better designs. I doubt my Samsung 150 would work that well with your antenna setup.

Originally posted by quarque
Cliff - that's great to hear. Just out of curiosity, where abouts are you located? Is the 4221 on a rotor or fixed mast? I like to know what sort of range people get with different antennas.Larry

I'm up in Snohomish County, around 219th SE and SE 2nd. I have a hill sw of me, that's a bit higher by ground elevation from my house, but the combination of the house height and the 10 ft mast seems to have done the trick. I have the CM 4221 on a fixed mast pointing (I guess) between Capital Hill and QAH (Likley more towards QAH). Strangely, after verifying crisp digital reception, I went back and looked at 9,13, 16 and 22 Analog and they remain marginal.

Thanks All!

Wow, there is actually something on 9-2 (PBS Kids) and 9-3 (PBS Learns) today! Nothing I wanted to watch, but I was surprised to see it there after not having anything.

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
Wow, there is actually something on 9-2 (PBS Kids) and 9-3 (PBS Learns) today! Nothing I wanted to watch, but I was surprised to see it there after not having anything.

-Lance
9-2 and 9-3 have had programming for months during the day, but again, nothing I'd watch. They go off around 5-6 PM and 9-1, 9-5 come on.

Originally posted by quarque
9-2 and 9-3 have had programming for months during the day, but again, nothing I'd watch. They go off around 5-6 PM and 9-1, 9-5 come on.

Ah. I guess I'd just never tuned to those during the weekdays. Wait, I'm never home then unless on vacation.... :)

-Lance

Hi Larry,

I live near the intersection of Mountain View Road and Aletha Place on Camano Island,Wa. Is it possible for me to receive the HD stations from Seattle?

Thanks Dan

Originally posted by Glass Guy
Hi Larry,

I live near the intersection of Mountain View Road and Aletha Place on Camano Island,Wa. Is it possible for me to receive the HD stations from Seattle?

Thanks Dan
Dan - you have no hills in the way so your only problems might be local interfence. If you put a good directional high-gain antenna on the roof you should have a good shot. You are about 35 miles from QA hill, bearing 8 deg. E of due south. Capitol Hill is only a few degrees east of that. Note that some stations direct their transmissions towards the east, so those to the NW and SW get less signal. Good luck.

Larry

quaarque: Can you do a plot line for me, too? I'm at 14798 Entner Rd, Anacortes (Fidalgo Is.). Before renumbering the address was 1486 Entner. Thanks. Art

Wow! What a thread...Looks like it has been a lot of help to folks. quaarque, you are definitely providing a fine service.

I hope you can help with mine. I'm using an HTPC with MyHD. I live on the east side of Bainbridge, - I can see the towers on Queen Anne. No big building in between, only water and one big tree, that I see around. I've been using a Radio Shack UHF only (15-2160), aimed right at Queen Anne. Everything comes in quite strong (as I would expect) - except KIRO. (I'm doing digital channels, only.) KIRO's signal strength with the rooftop antenna is almost nonexistant. If I use a set of rabbit ears, set at about 90 degrees away from QA, the signal is better, but fluctuates. I've tried attenuators, both 6 db and 12 db, but no observable difference. I've tried moving the antenna around the axis, up to around 30 degrees north and south of the line to the towers, but no difference (except that I start losing signal strength on the other stations).

So, while I'm quite happy getting the other stations, it would be nice to get a stronger signal on KIRO - it does have occasional dropouts when recording. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Richard

Originally posted by artshotwell
quaarque: Can you do a plot line for me, too? I'm at 14798 Entner Rd, Anacortes (Fidalgo Is.). Before renumbering the address was 1486 Entner. Thanks. Art
Hi Art. From what I can see, you are not very high up on the island (~75 feet) and you have a tall chunk of Whidbey (500 ft) in your way. The best you could get would be reflected signals which are rather unreliable.

Larry

Originally posted by RPack
Wow! What a thread...Looks like it has been a lot of help to folks. quaarque, you are definitely providing a fine service.

I hope you can help with mine. I'm using an HTPC with MyHD. I live on the east side of Bainbridge, - I can see the towers on Queen Anne. No big building in between, only water and one big tree, that I see around. I've been using a Radio Shack UHF only (15-2160), aimed right at Queen Anne. Everything comes in quite strong (as I would expect) - except KIRO. (I'm doing digital channels, only.) KIRO's signal strength with the rooftop antenna is almost nonexistant. If I use a set of rabbit ears, set at about 90 degrees away from QA, the signal is better, but fluctuates. I've tried attenuators, both 6 db and 12 db, but no observable difference. I've tried moving the antenna around the axis, up to around 30 degrees north and south of the line to the towers, but no difference (except that I start losing signal strength on the other stations).

So, while I'm quite happy getting the other stations, it would be nice to get a stronger signal on KIRO - it does have occasional dropouts when recording. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Richard
OK first of all, you guys (you too Art!) have to spell my handle correctly - "quarque" - it's a common everyday name (somewhere).

Now to the more serious subject of KIRO. This type of problem has been seen around the area and it is not always KIRO. But the common thread from what I see is that people to the west or NW have more trouble than others in general. I have learned that KOMO (and propably others) have mounted their digital antennas on the side of their tower. And which side do they pick? The SE side, of course. So there are some troughs in the radiation pattern off to the west and NW.

You might try an adjustable gain ampllifier (from zero gain to say 20 db gain). If you can get KIRO after using the amp then it is just a weak signal problem. The other possiblity is multipath particular to KIRO only (perhaps the location of their tower and/or your house). You could try moving your antenna horizontally around the roof to different locations. You could also try a different antenna. The RS unit is a corner reflector yagi and not as directional as other designs. The favorite seems to be the CM 4228 (high gain & very directional).

Larry

Originally posted by quarque
Hi Art. From what I can see, you are not very high up on the island (~75 feet) and you have a tall chunk of Whidbey (500 ft) in your way. The best you could get would be reflected signals which are rather unreliable.

Larry
Sorry 'bout misspelling your name. My little finger frequently hits a double a, which often gets me an aart. 500 feet, huh? Guess that explains the marginal signal I get from QA. I've guessed that my antenna is somewhere between 80' and 100' above the water. I do get a solid signal from 13.1/13.2, as well as 33.1 and a couple shopping channels. Just marginal for KOMO, KING, KIRO & KCTS. Thanks, Art

Thanks very much Larry. I think I will order a CM 4228, pre-amp, and rotor and hope for the best.

Thanks again, Dan

First off, Fyi. Everyone here has recommended the 4228. The only place I could find it was at some store in everett for $85. Yesterday I was at Fry's in Renton and got one for $49.95.

Next, my question.
I have one of those $20 radio shack yagi's. I was getting king at 90+ signal strength, kiro and komo in the mid 70's when I had it pointed about 20 degrees into the air. When level, the signals would go down significantly. So I got the 4228 yesterday and am down to 70 ish for king and 75ish for komo and kiro, but have added pbs at 80, and Upn in the 60s. Wb and fox on both were detected but in the 40's both times.

Should I care that king went so low? Is there something I could try to beef up the signals a bit better? Thanks.

-Mason

Mason - well I'm glad someone finally went to Fry's as I suggested many weeks ago. $49.95 is a good price. I've only seen it cheaper on the 'net once in a great while. The question about signal level can mainly be answered by another question: how is your reception of KING with the 4228? If you have rare dropouts I would not worry about it. Many receivers work fine at 20% signal. Also, pointing 20 degrees up from Monroe is a bit off target. You want something more like 5-10 degrees. If it works better at 20 degrees then you are probably getting significant multipath from local sources and aiming that high is weeding out some of that.

Larry

Originally posted by artshotwell
Sorry 'bout misspelling your name. My little finger frequently hits a double a, which often gets me an aart. 500 feet, huh? Guess that explains the marginal signal I get from QA. I've guessed that my antenna is somewhere between 80' and 100' above the water. I do get a solid signal from 13.1/13.2, as well as 33.1 and a couple shopping channels. Just marginal for KOMO, KING, KIRO & KCTS. Thanks, Art

Art - I was half kidding, but apology accepted. I was only getting "concerned" because there were two in a row with the same misspelling. Some day I will tell you how quarque came to be.

Are you picking up 13 from Bremerton? Because Capitol Hill is in the same boat as QA hill. 33.1 PAX is off to the east far enough that Whidbey is not in the way. Hmmmm, "HD shopping channels" - is that an oxymoron or just a waste of technology? Won't be long before they come up with a "Watching Paint Dry" channel.

I imagine it will be years before cable HD arrives on Fidalgo, so not sure what you can do for HD locals. Are any of the sat folks carrying HD locals yet?

Originally posted by Glass Guy
Thanks very much Larry. I think I will order a CM 4228, pre-amp, and rotor and hope for the best.

Thanks again, Dan
Dan - let us know how it goes!

I've been following this thread for several months now, as I've had my HD set up for about 6 months, thanks in part to this thread.

I was watching the Outer Limits on Channel 16 KONG this morning, and the reception was HORRIBLE. Usually it's in the fair category. It's better right now, but still in the fair to poor range. Anybody else experiencing this?

Originally posted by quarque
Are you picking up 13 from Bremerton? Because Capitol Hill is in the same boat as QA hill. 33.1 PAX is off to the east far enough that Whidbey is not in the way. Hmmmm, "HD shopping channels" - is that an oxymoron or just a waste of technology? Won't be long before they come up with a "Watching Paint Dry" channel.

I imagine it will be years before cable HD arrives on Fidalgo, so not sure what you can do for HD locals. Are any of the sat folks carrying HD locals yet?
Quarque...there I got it right... Yea, I'm getting 13 (can't remember the -real- channel) from Bremerton. Pax, the religious and shopping channels are all on the east side somewhat and much higher elevation, I think. I also get Bates (28...) some time, too.

BTW, I'm using 2 stacked CM 4228s with a mast-mounted amp.

Comcast has a couple HD channels in Anacortes, but as you may have noticed, I'm way out of town and outside Comcast territory. No local channels in HD yet. And, I suspect it will be awhile longer before that happens. If I had Canadian SAT, I could get Seattle stations in HD, though.

origionally posted by "QUARK", er "cworck", eh...TIBERIUS !!
...well I'm glad someone finally went to Fry's as I suggested many weeks ago...

Ahem!
Those many weeks ago they (according to the store help) didn't have any Channel Master antenna, just Terk (pg22-3rd post after)
Perhaps they got smart after others asked too. ;)

Originally posted by weebling1
origionally posted by "QUARK", er "cworck", eh...TIBERIUS !!
...well I'm glad someone finally went to Fry's as I suggested many weeks ago...
[/B]
OK now you are just making fun of my esoteric name. I did originally want to use QUARK many years ago when I started using AOL as my first ISP. I especially wanted that name because I have a BS in Physics and it seemed like a logical choice. I tried every combination of "Quark" + "xxx" combinations I could think of. To my disbelief they were all taken. So I decided to misspell it in a way that nobody would ever use. It worked and I have used it for years on dozens of services without out ever having to enter another name when registering. Now you know the rest of the story...

Fry's used to carry some other CM models because someone mentioned buying one about 6 months ago. Glad to see they are carrying the 4228 and at a reasonable price.

So, what exactly is a "weebling"? And why is there more than 1 of them? ;)

Originally posted by artshotwell

BTW, I'm using 2 stacked CM 4228s with a mast-mounted amp.

Wow, that should drill through almost anything. Well, not dirt. Have you tried different orientations in the odd chance there is a strong reflection you could pick up? What is the "correct" spacing for stacking? Vertical or horizontal?

Remaining options: A) jack up your house about 200 feet or B) scrape off some of that Whidbey Island nob.

Too bad there is no financial incentive for stations to put up repeaters like they used to do for analog UHF. There are lots of people in the shadow of a hill in the Puget Sound area.

Thanks for the help Larry. I think I'll try it out for a bit and see how well my signals hold up. I'm not too excited to get on the roof again anytime soon. Its kind of wierd, I was getting better signal strength on wb and fox yesterday than king.

Quarque,

There is a right way to stack yagis. Stacking vertically will narrow the vertical band (not the right term, but I can't think what it is); stacking horizontally will narrow the horizontal band. I've stacked vertically only because I don't really have the means to stack horizontally. In other words, it was easier. And, there is a protocol for how far apart they should be. I can't remember the formula, but I do know I got it close.

I've tried turning the antenna left and right...even a little up and down. Nothing really helps the QA/Capitol Hill stations. I get good signals during temperature inversions, but spotty signals other times. The signal levels bounce way up and way down in short time frames. I think the problem is so much of the signal path is over water. And, there's that 500 foot hill on Whidbey. I knew I was shooting over Whidbey, but had no idea how high it was...nor how far away the highest hill is. But, the QA antennas are at 800 feet, aren't they? Very solid signal, though, from KCPQ-DT west of Bremerton. Like 98 on my Sony HD100 signal level meter. This is frustrating.

This is probably not the right place to post this question, but I understand there is a Seahawks playoff game on Sunday on Fox. Does that mean it will be on channel 13, and not in HD? I ask because I could swear I have seen the Fox logo on another channel, like 22.

Originally posted by Grampa
This is probably not the right place to post this question, but I understand there is a Seahawks playoff game on Sunday on Fox. Does that mean it will be on channel 13, and not in HD? I ask because I could swear I have seen the Fox logo on another channel, like 22.
Yep, Hawks on FOX 13 Sunday, not HD but perhaps FAUX widescreen. I actually prefer their fake widescreen to having black bars on the sides. You may see ads on 22 but not their logo in the corner. Keep in mind that 13 and 22 are sharing equipment on CH, so you will see 13-1 & 13-2 as the same as 22-2 & 22-1 respectively.

Art - yes, xmitters are at about 850-900 feet above sea level for QA stations.

Originally posted by quarque
Yep, Hawks on FOX 13 Sunday, not HD but perhaps FAUX widescreen. I actually prefer their fake widescreen to having black bars on the sides. You may see ads on 22 but not their logo in the corner. Keep in mind that 13 and 22 are sharing equipment on CH, so you will see 13-1 & 13-2 as the same as 22-2 & 22-1 respectively. Yes, I think I saw the 13 logo on 22-2. I get both 22-1 and 22-2, but don't get 13 reliably enough to see that it carries the same content. So you're saying I shouldn't worry about 13 if I get both 22-1 and 22-2?

I've been tinkering. I got one of those Terk antennas that clip on to the satellite dish to try to bring in 13 more reliably and to see what else I could get. The first antenna I tried knocked out the transponder frequency for spotbeam 3 -- i.e., local channels. They told me it must be defective. The next one did not interfere with the satellite reception, but I got absolutely nothing on DTV (mind you, I get an unobstructed view of the CH towers from my roof). This antenna uses a diplexer to combine the satellite and UHF signals at the dish, and another diplexer to split the signals at the receiver. It also uses DC current from the satellite receiver to power an amplifier in the antenna. I think either the amplified signal overpowered my HD box or the diplexers did not do their job and I got interference from the satellite signal. When I connected the HD box directly to an unamplified table top UHF antenna that I brought up to the roof (borrowing the cable from the satellite), I got great reception on lots of channels.

Maybe tomorrow I'll try to find an unamplified clip-on antenna. I really don't want to run another cable. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Yes, 13-1 is duplicated on 22-2 and 22-1 is duplicated on 13-2. So you are fine if you get either pair of -1 and -2 signals.

I have no experience with dish antennas - perhaps some other members could help you out there. I'm sure there is something out there that will work. I wouldn't think you would need an amplified version given your proximity to towers. If anything, you may want to put an adjustable attenuator at the HD receiver end of the cable to cut the signal level.

Great minds think alike . . . I just got off the phone, first with Terk then with Radio Shack, and concluded I should try an adjustable attenuator. The person at Terk did think the amplifier was overpowering the tuner (which is pretty sensitive). She recommended a Terk TV-36, which is a passive antenna, but requires its own cable, mast, etc. That's too much work for what I need; I want to use the cable from the dish. It occurred to me, however, that anything using that cable will be amplified, since the satellite signal is amplified. So an attenuator is the only way to go.

One more trip to Radio Shack before I give up and return everything. I don't really need this: last night I picked up 12 channels using the table top antenna (I got 33 or 35, I can't remember). And I'm certainly too old to be scrambling around on my roof in the snow. But I can't help thinking there's some station out there that will make this all worthwhile. :>)

Thanks to quarque doing a plot for me last month, I decided to try for the DTV.
I am in the Port Orchard area of Kitsap County and here are my results.

Antenna - Channel Master 4228
Receiver: Samsung SIR T-151

Results:

Channel 4-1 (38) (KOMO-DT, Seattle) Good Signal
Channel 5-1 (48) (KING-DT, Seattle) Good Signal
Channel 7-1 (39) (KIRO-DT, Seattle) Good Signal
Channel 9-1 (41) (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Fair Signal
Channel 9-2 (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Fair Signal
Channel 9-3 (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Fair Signal
Channel 9-5
Channel 11-1 (36) KSTW-DT, Seattle) Fair Signal, fades
Channel 13-1 (18) (FOX-DT, Bremerton) Too strong of Signal, no reception
Channel 13-2 (25) (KTWB-DT, Bremerton) Too strong of signal, no reception
Channel 16-1 (31) (KONG-DT, Everett) Fair reception, occasional fades
Channel 20-1 (14) (KTBW-DT, Bremerton) Too strong of Signal, no reception
Channel 22-1 (22) (KTWB-DT, Seattle) Good Signal
Channel 22-2 (22) (KCPQ-DT, Seattle) Good Signal
Channel 28-1 (27) (KBTC-DT, Tacoma) No Signal
Channel 33-1 (32) (KWPX-DT, Bellevue) Fair Signal
Channel 42 (42) (KWDK-DT, Tacoma) No Signal
Channel 44-1 (44) (KHCV-DT, Seattle) No Signal
Channel 51-1 (51) (KWOG-DT,Bellevue) NBC Shopping, Fair Signal


Please note that this reception is with the antenna just sitting on the deck (3 feet above ground), pointing towards Seattle. If I lay the antenna flat, pointing straight up into the air, I then can receive the channels from Bremerton (Gold Mountain) and my receiver strength maxes out with those channels. Obvisously I am too close for the channels off of Gold Mountain with this antenna!!

I am hoping that when I mount this to a mast and get it up into the air some, my total reception will get better.

Boatmanbob

Originally posted by Grampa
Great minds think alike . . . I just got off the phone, first with Terk then with Radio Shack, and concluded I should try an adjustable attenuator. The person at Terk did think the amplifier was overpowering the tuner (which is pretty sensitive). She recommended a Terk TV-36, which is a passive antenna, but requires its own cable, mast, etc.

Personally I would stay away from Terk. I haven't heard much postive stuff from the users on ANY Terk product. Have you tried a Silver Sensor? I haven't tried that one either, but it gets high marks from others who have.
Tom

quarque: obviously a weebling is an immature weeb. :p , maybe when I grow up...

ah! back to the thread topic, anybody spot the movie on KIRO-DT Sunday night? I wish I could remember the title, but it was showing in widescreen! What a wonderful idea! I hope the other locals copy that. (If they don't already)


Congrats boatmanbob! Remember to try KCTS 9-5 after 5pm for their eye candy.

boatmanbob - great news! Sounds like an adjustable attenuator might be the thing to add just before the receiver, although I'm not sure the "too strong" stations are really going to be missed. You are getting all the "major" ones from one source or another since 13-1 is duplicated on 22-2.

Originally posted by quarque
Yes, 13-1 is duplicated on 22-2 and 22-1 is duplicated on 13-2.

Looks like that ended on New Year's. Message on 13-2 and 22-2 says "Due to circumstances beyond our control we are temporarily suspending alternate programming services on our DTV stations."

I've been a frequent reader in this forum for a short while and am finally getting engaged with HDTV. I recently purchased a Sony HD300 with DirecTV and recieved a rude shock. After being told by the DirecTV reps on not just one, but several calls that my local channels are delivered in HDTV over their service, I found out that this is what could charitably be called a "load of bollocks".

Since this was the motivation for getting the upgraded service I'm, well, picqued. To avoid paying more money to these mendacious people I've been looking into getting an antenna to enable us to get OTA HDTV transmissions.

I'm located on Capitol Hill and have clear line of site to the three towers several blocks away and unknown line of sight to the Queen Anne towers. What are the experiences of other Capital Hill residents?

I'm at the corner of E Roy Street and 21st Ave E near Holy Names. Any experiences to share?

Cheers,

Brian

Originally posted by artshotwell
Looks like that ended on New Year's. Message on 13-2 and 22-2 says "Due to circumstances beyond our control we are temporarily suspending alternate programming services on our DTV stations."
I suspect that may have something to do with the fact that 22-1 was carrying the Rose Bowl Parade in HD this morning (it looked very nice, but not as good as being there!). They can't broadcast the second subchannel when they go to HD. I bet it will be back to 'normal' by Friday or Saturday.

Originally posted by Brianmur
I've been a frequent reader in this forum for a short while and am finally getting engaged with HDTV. I recently purchased a Sony HD300 with DirecTV and recieved a rude shock. After being told by the DirecTV reps on not just one, but several calls that my local channels are delivered in HDTV over their service, I found out that this is what could charitably be called a "load of bollocks".

Since this was the motivation for getting the upgraded service I'm, well, picqued. To avoid paying more money to these mendacious people I've been looking into getting an antenna to enable us to get OTA HDTV transmissions.

I'm located on Capitol Hill and have clear line of site to the three towers several blocks away and unknown line of sight to the Queen Anne towers. What are the experiences of other Capital Hill residents?

I'm at the corner of E Roy Street and 21st Ave E near Holy Names. Any experiences to share?

Cheers,

Brian
Welcome to the forum Brian and I like your choice of adjectives. All I can tell you is you have no problem with hills in getting the QA signals. Your biggest problem will be multipath interfence. With all the buildings around you will get lots of reflected signals, which kills DT receivers. I don't know if the HD300 is above or below average on rejecting multipath. I would get whatever UHF antenna you can and try it out. In urban areas things vary greatly from one location to the next so it is a real *bullock-shoot*. Even a piece of wire made into a loop might work since you are so close to the towers. If you get a real antenna you might want to invest in an adjustable attenuator to cut back on those over-powering signals. Good luck and let us know what happens.

Originally posted by quarque
I suspect that may have something to do with the fact that 22-1 was carrying the Rose Bowl Parade in HD this morning (it looked very nice, but not as good as being there!). They can't broadcast the second subchannel when they go to HD. I bet it will be back to 'normal' by Friday or Saturday.
They broadcast HD on the second channel (13-2) all the time. The WB has most of their prime time shows in HD and they've been available on KCPQ-DT in HD for at least a year, though not without blocking during action scenes.

Tribune Broadcasting, which owns both KCPQ & KTWB, also produced the Rose Parade coverage that was on KTWB. Which is what I wanted to watch this morning. In any case, Tribune's coverage was also on DiscoveryHD on DirecTV.

In my view, Tribune's KTLA, which originates Tribune's Rose Parade coverage, has consistently provided the best show. While some folks may not like Stephanie Edwards and Bob Eubanks, I enjoy their remarks. And, of all the anchors of Rose Parade shows, they are the most knowledgeable.

I'm located on Capitol Hill and have clear line of site to the three towers several blocks away and unknown line of sight to the Queen Anne towers. What are the experiences of other Capital Hill residents?

I'm about 4 blocks south of you near 15th, and I have had pretty good luck. My TV has a built in reciever so just to see what I could get I attached an old single wire antenna that originally came as an FM antenna. Even with this I'm getting good signal from pretty much everything except for KING 5 which doesn't come in at all.

Mark

Originally posted by Brianmur
I'm located on Capitol Hill and have clear line of site to the three towers several blocks away and unknown line of sight to the Queen Anne towers. What are the experiences of other Capital Hill residents?

I'm at the corner of E Roy Street and 21st Ave E near Holy Names. Any experiences to share?

Cheers,

Brian Hey Brian, I'm about five blocks from you, on 16th E. between Aloha and Roy. I'm a little higher on the hill, but I will confirm what quarque has said. I have a little table-top Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna (i.e., rabbit ears and a loop), with an adjustable amplifier. It is in my basement, and I still get decent reception. I sometimes need to rotate the antenna or increase or decrease the amplification. The only station I have problems with is 13 (off and on), but that is duplicated on 22-2 (although "temporarily" out of service). Until fairly recently, I got all my local analog channels with this same antenna, but now I get them over Dishnetwork for an extra $5 or so. I got tired of rotating the antenna. I've not had a problem with Dish.

I have recently been experimenting with rooftop antennas, more for fun than anything else. I've tried a couple of those antennas that clip on to the dish, because I didn't want to run any more cable. The problem is that those antennas are amplified because of the satellite system, and I think I was overpowering my HD receiver (I could probably hit the Capitol Hill towers with a beebee gun from my roof). When I took my table-top antenna to the roof, with no power for the amplifier and with the cable disconnected from the satellite receiver, I was able to get great reception on lots of channels, and it didn't seem to matter much which way the antenna was pointed. When I get time, I'll try the clip-on again, but this time put an attenuator just before the HD receiver and see what happens.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you want to take a look.

The video was dropping/pixelizing/freezing on KING tonight during American Dreams... The audio was unaffected for me, which made me think it was a broadcast problem. The video freezes were still there if I quickly changed channel away and back. Anyone else see this?

-Lance

You're not alone. Same thing happened at our place and normally KING is one of our better channels for solid reception. My teenage daughter was ready to revolt until I flipped back to satellite.

Originally posted by Brianmur
I'm at the corner of E Roy Street and 21st Ave E near Holy Names. Any experiences to share?
Originally posted by Grampa
I'm about five blocks from you, on 16th E. between Aloha and Roy. I'm a little higher on the hill, but I will confirm what quarque has said. I have a little table-top Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna (i.e., rabbit ears and a loop), with an adjustable amplifier. It is in my basement, and I still get decent reception. I sometimes need to rotate the antenna or increase or decrease the amplification. The only station I have problems with is 13 (off and on), but that is duplicated on 22-2 (although "temporarily" out of service). Until fairly recently, I got all my local analog channels with this same antenna, but now I get them over Dishnetwork for an extra $5 or so. I got tired of rotating the antenna. I've not had a problem with Dish.
Originally posted by markct
I'm about 4 blocks south of you near 15th, and I have had pretty good luck. My TV has a built in reciever so just to see what I could get I attached an old single wire antenna that originally came as an FM antenna. Even with this I'm getting good signal from pretty much everything except for KING 5 which doesn't come in at all.

Thanks for the feedback folks. The Channel Master 4228 is installed on a tripod that stands about 6 feet off the apex of the roofline. It's facing the Queen Anne towers (West) and here are the results:

Antenna - Channel Master 4228
Receiver: Sony HD300

Results:

Channel 4-1 (38) (KOMO-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 80-85%
Channel 5-1 (48) (KING-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 7-1 (39) (KIRO-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 9-1 (41) (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 9-2 (41) (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 9-3 (41) (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 9-5 (41) (KCTS-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 11-1 (36) (KSTW-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 80-85%
Channel 12.2 (..) No Signal
Channel 13-1 (18) (KCPQ-DT) Normal to Good Signal 65-70%
Channel 13-2 (18) (KCPQ-DT) Normal to Good Signal 65-70%
Channel 16-1 (31) (KONG-DT, Everett) Good Signal 85-90%
Channel 20-1 (14) (KTBW-DT, Bremerton) No Signal
Channel 22-1 (22) (KTWB-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 65-70%
Channel 22-2 (25) (KCPQ-DT, Seattle) Good Signal 65-70%
Channel 28-1 (27) (KBTC-DT, Tacoma) No Signal
Channel 28-2 (27) (KBTC-DT, Tacoma) No Signal
Channel 28-3 (27) (KBTC-DT, Tacoma) No Signal
Channel 28-4 (27) (KBTC-DT, Tacoma) No Signal
Channel 33-1 (32) (KWPX-DT, Bellevue) No Signal
Channel 45-1 (44) (KHCV-DT, Seattle) No Signal

I'm sure that the results with change with changing environmental conditions. The HD300 has some reboot and audio and signal drop outs so there may be some contribution there.

~Brian

Thought I'd jump in here a give a little report. Yesterday I had my Directv HD Receiver and Dish installed along with an OTA Antenna, I'm located on Education Hill in Redmond so perhaps this can be helpful to anyone in this area, I don't know the brand of antenna but it is one of those that kinda looks like a propeller, circular hub in the center with two elongated hoops on the side, mounted on the roof on a small stand the same size as the Directv Dish, using antennaweb, we aimed it at 230 degrees. We did a channel scan and picked up 8 digital channels, all with signal readings between 75-100 %, KOMO, KING, KIRO, KCPQ, KONG, PBS, KTWB, KSTW.

I was very happy and the picture quality is great, Cold Case in HD was awesome!! Hope this is helpful to some.

congrats! IBTRKN
Sounds like a simple "bow tie" UHF antenna, amazingly good reception. You must have a good line of sight to the seattle towers.

Hi all! I'm in Fremont, pulling in over the air: NBC (5), CBS (7), UPN (11), WB (22-1), FOX (22-2) currently offair though, ABC (38) and PBS (41). They all come in at over 80% signal strength (well, ABC is actually only around 60%) using a Silver Sensor.

That's the good news. The bad news is I might be moving soon and I'm not sure I'll get good reception in the new place so I'm considering switching to Comcast. However, being a newbie to all this I don't know if I can plug Comcast Digital cable into my myHD 120 card. I can't seem to find on the website anything other than "tunes NTSC".

So can anyone out there with a myHD 120 tell me if it just works for OTA or if I can subscribe to Comcast HD and continue using my HTPC to PVR HD. (Gotta love the abbreviations).

Thanks!
Chris

Hi Larry,

Would you mind checking my location for reception? I live at 1619 180th Ave NE, Bellevue, WA. MapPoint says my house is at coordinates 47.6242508666838 deg N and 122.09989483488513 deg W.

A couple of years ago I tried using Radio Shack's biggest directional antenna with an amplifier. I managed to get 5 seconds of signal in the 4 hours I spent on the roof. There's a a hill behind my house to the west so I think Comcast HD my best bet but I'd like to be more sure.

Thanks!
Michal

Originally posted by cdt9c1
Hi all! I'm in Fremont, pulling in over the air: NBC (5), CBS (7), UPN (11), WB (22-1), FOX (22-2) currently offair though, ABC (38) and PBS (41). They all come in at over 80% signal strength (well, ABC is actually only around 60%) using a Silver Sensor.

That's the good news. The bad news is I might be moving soon and I'm not sure I'll get good reception in the new place so I'm considering switching to Comcast. However, being a newbie to all this I don't know if I can plug Comcast Digital cable into my myHD 120 card. I can't seem to find on the website anything other than "tunes NTSC".

So can anyone out there with a myHD 120 tell me if it just works for OTA or if I can subscribe to Comcast HD and continue using my HTPC to PVR HD. (Gotta love the abbreviations).

Thanks!
Chris
Chris - I don't have a myHD card but I do know that Comcast uses QAM encoding for HD and you need a tuner with QAM decoding to get anything. Have you checked out the HTPC forum here? They can tell you more than you want to know about any HTPC topic. Good luck.

Larry

Originally posted by michalp
Hi Larry,

Would you mind checking my location for reception? I live at 1619 180th Ave NE, Bellevue, WA. MapPoint says my house is at coordinates 47.6242508666838 deg N and 122.09989483488513 deg W.

A couple of years ago I tried using Radio Shack's biggest directional antenna with an amplifier. I managed to get 5 seconds of signal in the 4 hours I spent on the roof. There's a a hill behind my house to the west so I think Comcast HD my best bet but I'd like to be more sure.

Thanks!
Michal
Michal - well first off, I need a few more decimal places in the lat-lon data (ha!). Anyway, yes, there is a large hill to the west that will block line of site to the Seattle towers. I'm afraid you're at the mercy of Comcast or a dish...

Larry

Hi Larry,

I'm at 47.62570 degrees north and 122.05102 degrees west. I suspect it is grim since I am on the Sammamish Plateau, but wonder what you can see from your map?

TIA,

Rich

I have had my Sony HD300 fired up since the end of December out here in Indianola (immediately north of Bainbridge Island), thought I'd report my OTA findings for everybody.

Station ANALOG-CH UHF-CH RX-SIGNAL Notes
KOMO 4 38 10% Won't lock on*
KING 5 48 85-90% Solid reception
KIRO 7 39 85-90% Solid reception
KCTS 9 41 80-85% Occasional multipath at night
KSTW 11 36 80% Solid reception
KVOS 12 35 0% NO RX
KCPQ 13 18 70% Solid, amazingly
KONG 16 31 80% Lots of multipath at night
KTBW 20 14 0% NO RX
KTWB 22 25 85-90% Solid reception
KWPX 33 32 70% Seems to go off-air at night
KHCV 45 44 60-65% Solid reception
KWOG 51 50 55% Solid reception
KCKA ? 19 0% NO RX
KBTC ? 27 10% Won't lock on

I'm using a Radio Shack VU-75XR VHF/UHF yagi rated for 75 miles VHF and 50 miles UHF, mounted in my attic with an elevation of approx 130-140 feet above sea level. I shoot through some sparse trees on a bearing of 113 degrees. Antennaweb states to use 112 for the CH and 114 for the QA towers, so I split the difference. If anything, I think I have a little downtilt on my antenna. I have direct line of sight to all the towers (I can even see the blinking lights at night)

The biggest problem I have is KOMO. I get about a 10% signal on my indicator, but no lock. I'm aware of the "NW shadow" from the KOMO transmitter placement on their tower (thanks to the folks on this board), and initially thought I was just doomed. I emailed KOMO and worked a bit with Don W. to try and confirm this. He said the "shadow" (null) falls across Shilshole Marina, which would be about 1-2 degrees off my line of sight to QA towers. Just when I was going to give up, I found that at night there are times I can lock on and RX KOMO. It takes a few attempts at changing the channel back and forth between 4.1 and something else, but I have about a 10% success rate after midnight. When it does lock on, the signal is rock steady in the 85-90% range like all the other QA stations. The only correlations I can find are that when I can lock on to KOMO, KONG is usally either down to 10-20% and full of multipath affects or gone completely. No way to tell if this is a direct relationship, or if maybe whatever atmospheric condition is hammering KONG is bending KOMO to my favor... it all seems very multipath related.

I tried adding attenuation, and with 18dB worth of attenuators and terminated splitters I was trashing KONG completely, getting fading on KSTW, and still couldn't get KOMO.

What I want to try next is playing with my antenna tilt, but trying to do it with just the u-bolt mount has proved difficult. Does anybody know of a commerically available tilting mount? I searched on the web but came up dry, and figure I might just have to rig something myself. The next option will be to get a CM 4228 and see if that has any better results, although I'm afraid it's narrow beamwidth will drop my KCPQ feed (which I'm amazed I can even get now considering how far off-axis it is from the direction I currently have the antenna pointed).

Moving the antenna outside might also help, but that is a touchy subject with my better half (the DirecTV oval dish makes her cringe already). Has anybody seen this?

Winegard Squareshooter (http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm)

Doesn't look like it is available yet, but Winegard says it beats the CM 4221 (4-bay bowtie), and looks like it has a better chance of being wife-approved aesthetically.

-Mike

Edited: added info about attenuation.

Mike - the fact that you get both QA stations AND KCPQ from Bremerton says that your antenna is not very directional. This makes it more susceptable to multipath. A 4228 and rotor might be the answer. Also, tiliting upward about 5 degrees might help. Before you do anything drastic you might try moving the antenna around both inside and outside temporarily. Sometimes a few feet of change vertically or horizontally can make a huge difference. Thanks for the detailed report.

Originally posted by PaddyOFurniture
Hi Larry,

I'm at 47.62570 degrees north and 122.05102 degrees west. I suspect it is grim since I am on the Sammamish Plateau, but wonder what you can see from your map?

TIA,

Rich
Rich - your elevation is about 510 feet and there is a 590 foot hill to the west of you. This puts you just below the LOS line from QA towers. But if you can get an antenna on the roof (30+ feet off the ground), you should have a decent chance at reception. Try a temporary setup before investing in a mast and hardware. A small antenna on a pole will tell you a lot. Your bearing should be due west. Good luck!

Larry

The other contributing factor is that KOMO, KING, KIRO, KSTW and KONG have directional broadcasts. KCTS is the only Seattle based major network that is not directional.

I obtained some graphs from the FCC that show the broadcast directions, and let me tell you, none of them favor folks to the west. KOMO and KIRO broadcast mostly to the north, east and south, with KING going north/south. KSTW, as has been discussed, points SW but also goes equally NE. KONG focuses, strangely enough, to the SE with good strength to NE and SE, but NW is pretty weak.

I am putting together a Puget Sound DTV FAQ and these graphs will be included.
I'll post it here once I have a draft done.

-Lance

Lance - so you have the website address where the propogation graphs are located?

Here's the first draft.

FCC info via searches here:
FCC TV Search (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html)

Let me know what you think, and if you'd like to see additions. I'm sure I missed some relevant questions.

-Lance

[attachment removed, see updated version on page 31]

Quarque - thanks for the suggestions... I'm leaning towards getting a CM4228, adding a bunch of attenuation since I live so dang close to the transmitters, and using a join-tenna and a separate ant to RX CH 18 (KCPQ) should the CM4228 not be able to pick it up (which I assume it won't with its much narrower beamwidth).

I was able to once again get KOMO tonight, albeit at 8 pm. Once again, KONG was dead at around 10%. I might first try a join-tenna to just trap out channel 31 KONG to see if KOMO lights up with it out of the way, more than anything just to satisfy my curiosity. The specs on the join-tenna are a little confusing as it says for UHF it also traps out 5 adjacent channels??? If it is less than 40 bucks, I might try anyway for kicks.

Lance, that information is great. I have a printed copy of the first Excel spreadsheet you put out that I reference a lot. Thanks. Went to the FCC site and it is interesting to note that both KOMO and KIRO use the same model of antenna, and most use the same brand (Dielectric). The FCC radiation plots I believe are just the factory-supplied patterns, not actual propagation plots based on our area. The stations undoubtedly have the computer simulated plots for the area, but who knows if they would be willing to hand them out to the public. When I worked in public TV, our engineering dept had them hanging all over the walls. For the adventurous, HERE (http://pizon.org/rmw/index.html) is a link to a page where you can download a freeware propagation plot program. It looks pretty good and utilizes free topo data available on the web. The RF environment information looks more daunting. I might give it a go in my free time if I can figure out how to break down the published ERP for the DTV transmitters into the component data used in the software (transmit power, antenna gain, etc). It also does LOS calculations including fresnel zones.

So I'll be back up in the attic again soon. Ha ha, my wife said I should find a hobby!

-Mike

I picked up a 4228 from Fry's last week and realized that I can't get it through the access to my attic. I am considering roof mounting it professionally since access for adjustments after will be difficult.

I would appreciate recommendations of installers in the Seattle area who have done a good job for you to kennyh28@hotmail.com.

Thanks!

Originally posted by lkinley
Here's the first draft.

FCC info via searches here:
FCC TV Search (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html)

Let me know what you think, and if you'd like to see additions. I'm sure I missed some relevant questions.

-Lance
Lance - thanks for the FCC link but I already had that one. The plots there are for an "ideal" antenna and do not reflect the exact effects of the tower structure. Those add several irregularities to the ideal pattern. All they did was rotate the ideal plot to match the antenna direction (not sure the KOMO plot is correct because I know it's aimed ESE). Still, some useful information!

Regarding the FAQ doc. - very nice collection of information. But there are a few things that I think are not exactly correct. The gain of an antenna comes from its design and while it's true that higher gain antennas tend to be more directional, there is not a strict 1:1 correspondence.

Although Channel Master is very good, there are a number of other good antennas made. In fact, several have beat out the CM 4228 in head-to-head comparison at local and non-local installations. The only thing I would shy away from are the gimicky things that seem to use black magic rather than good engineering.

Adding an amplifier does increase overall gain but it does NOT make your antenna more directional - that is strictly a function of the physical design. Amplifiers also increases the noise and reflected signals as much as the desired signal - so they are only useful in a few situations with weak signals. Attenuators tend to be a more useful tool for the bulk of the population (urban).

Overall, a very useful document. We thank you for putting the time into it.

Larry

Originally posted by GHzGeek
I picked up a 4228 from Fry's last week and realized that I can't get it through the access to my attic. I am considering roof mounting it professionally since access for adjustments after will be difficult.

I would appreciate recommendations of installers in the Seattle area who have done a good job for you to kennyh28@hotmail.com.

Thanks!
You might consider taking the 4228 apart and reassembling it in the attic. Several people in the AVS forums have done this. You might search for 4228 and "assembly" or such. I think the first step is to take off the screen (easy). If it is still too big then drill out the rivets and reassemble with screws.

Originally posted by quarque
Lance - thanks for the FCC link but I already had that one. The plots there are for an "ideal" antenna and do not reflect the exact effects of the tower structure. Those add several irregularities to the ideal pattern. All they did was rotate the ideal plot to match the antenna direction (not sure the KOMO plot is correct because I know it's aimed ESE). Still, some useful information!

Regarding the FAQ doc. - very nice collection of information. But there are a few things that I think are not exactly correct. The gain of an antenna comes from its design and while it's true that higher gain antennas tend to be more directional, there is not a strict 1:1 correspondence.

Although Channel Master is very good, there are a number of other good antennas made. In fact, several have beat out the CM 4228 in head-to-head comparison at local and non-local installations. The only thing I would shy away from are the gimicky things that seem to use black magic rather than good engineering.

Adding an amplifier does increase overall gain but it does NOT make your antenna more directional - that is strictly a function of the physical design. Amplifiers also increases the noise and reflected signals as much as the desired signal - so they are only useful in a few situations with weak signals. Attenuators tend to be a more useful tool for the bulk of the population (urban).

Overall, a very useful document. We thank you for putting the time into it.

Larry

Yeah, I figured that there would be other factors other than orientation. I add a little note about that.

As for gain and design/preamps, I had read several posts here on the subject that indicated this and there were no rebuttals, so I figured it was pretty accurate. If this isn't the case, then I will remove that info from the document. I'm not an RF engineer, so I don't really know anything beyond what I can find on the net! It is just a subject I find fascinating.

As far as other antennas, which models beat out the 4228? I hadn't heard of any until now since the 4228 seems to be the darling of this forum. I'd love to add more info on that, too!

-Lance

Lance - any posts that said that an amplifier makes an antenna more directional SHOULD have been rebutted. It just is not true.

I recently corresponded with a guy who lives about 2 miles south of me. He had a pro come out and try several antennas. The 4228 did OK on most channels but not all. He ended up with a Blonder Tongue (model 4875) that did the best at his location. So you just never know until you try. The art of OTA is mostly trial and error unless you are lucky (then it is just a "try") :)
Most of the pros try several antennas and use a spectrum analyzer to see what sort of signal each gets. If I could afford one I would buy one. Unfortunately I blew all my money on expensive HD and stereo gear!

Larry

Larry, can you also check my address?

25801 SE 25th Way
Sammamish

Thanks so much for your help!

Originally posted by scottkathi
Larry, can you also check my address?

25801 SE 25th Way
Sammamish

Thanks so much for your help!
You have a hill 1.5 miles to the west that is just barely blocking the towers. If you could put an antenna on the roof (30-40 feet off the ground) you might have a chance at decent reception. I would try something temporary for evaluation before spending big bucks.

Larry

Thanks! I really appreciate your help!

Does anyone here know why Kiro-7 (CBS) doesn't broadcast the DD 5.1 feeds? I'm pretty sure that many of the football games that were in HD this season were also supposed to be in DD. What gives?

Larry,

I'm just starting my investigation into joing the HD masses and hoped you could check out my address for suitability. Originally I thought it was good that I was on top of Novelty Hill, but now I'm thinking all the trees might hurt my chances.

I'm at 9304 226th PL NE, Redmond 98053. The coordinates look to be this:

47.68330 Lat N
122.04179 Long W

Additionally I have a friend who also wants his plot checked. He lives in the Redmond city proper and hopes the valley he is in won't be too low. I only have coords for him, which are:

47.67168 Lat N
122.08791 Long W

Thank you!

Originally posted by felthove
Does anyone here know why Kiro-7 (CBS) doesn't broadcast the DD 5.1 feeds? I'm pretty sure that many of the football games that were in HD this season were also supposed to be in DD. What gives?

KIRO hasn't upgraded their equipment, yet. Perhaps someone with contacts can find out when? Too bad for the Superbowl.

-Lance

I am intersted in getting the Superbowl in HD. I have access to an HD receiver that I can borrow. I don't mind spending some money on a good antenna, and I have easy access into my attic and roof. But, since it is not a permanent install, I am hoping not to get too involved in mounting (as far as poles or towers go). Can anybody suggest a good antenna for my needs? I checked at antennaweb and it shows "small multi-directional", but I am no so sure I should count on that. I don't want to have hassles during the show.

I would also like to make sure that I can actually recieve signals before I go through all the hassle. Can you please let me know?

Lat: 47.764741 47:45:53.068N
Lon: -122.049211 122:02:57.160W

I am only a few houses away from Timbercrest Jr High
19115 215th Way NE, Woodinville, Washington 98072

Thank you for your help.

Originally posted by RenStimpy
Larry,

I'm just starting my investigation into joing the HD masses and hoped you could check out my address for suitability. Originally I thought it was good that I was on top of Novelty Hill, but now I'm thinking all the trees might hurt my chances.

I'm at 9304 226th PL NE, Redmond 98053. The coordinates look to be this:

47.68330 Lat N
122.04179 Long W

Additionally I have a friend who also wants his plot checked. He lives in the Redmond city proper and hopes the valley he is in won't be too low. I only have coords for him, which are:

47.67168 Lat N
122.08791 Long W

Thank you!
Your location looks pretty good. You have a slight hill but an attic or roof mount should easily overcome it. Trees aren't necessarily a show stopper but you may have to try several antenna locations to get all stations.

Your friend's location looks even better than yours - no hills.

Larry

John,

Assuming you have good line of site to the towers, a Radio Shack yagi UHF antenna might be good enough. I think they are less than $30.

Lowe's carries some antennas and so does Fry's. Fry's carries the Channel Master line, which is a favorite for the money around here.

-Lance

Originally posted by John Rush
I am intersted in getting the Superbowl in HD. I have access to an HD receiver that I can borrow. I don't mind spending some money on a good antenna, and I have easy access into my attic and roof. But, since it is not a permanent install, I am hoping not to get too involved in mounting (as far as poles or towers go). Can anybody suggest a good antenna for my needs? I checked at antennaweb and it shows "small multi-directional", but I am no so sure I should count on that. I don't want to have hassles during the show.

I would also like to make sure that I can actually recieve signals before I go through all the hassle. Can you please let me know?


John,
I live in Kenmore and I can get a good signal on CBS HD with a Channel Master 4221 with a temporary setup similar to what you have planned. Sunday during the Colts/Patriots game, I ran a coax cable out the door to the antenna, which was outside on the ground, propped up against the house.

I got a 77% signal the whole game, not a single break in the signal. I'll be watching the Superbowl with the same setup, it worked great.

Plan on putting the antenna outside, it will be alot easier to dial in on the signal and keep it locked in...all my attempts to get an indoor/attic antenna to work have yielded spotty results....and I have spent countless hours on this.

Paul

Originally posted by John Rush
I am intersted in getting the Superbowl in HD. I have access to an HD receiver that I can borrow. I don't mind spending some money on a good antenna, and I have easy access into my attic and roof. But, since it is not a permanent install, I am hoping not to get too involved in mounting (as far as poles or towers go). Can anybody suggest a good antenna for my needs? I checked at antennaweb and it shows "small multi-directional", but I am no so sure I should count on that. I don't want to have hassles during the show.

I would also like to make sure that I can actually recieve signals before I go through all the hassle. Can you please let me know?

Lat: 47.764741 47:45:53.068N
Lon: -122.049211 122:02:57.160W

I am only a few houses away from Timbercrest Jr High
19115 215th Way NE, Woodinville, Washington 98072

Thank you for your help.
John - your location looks fairly good. You have a very slight hill to the SW but easily overcome with a 2nd floor/attic/roof mount. You only need about 20 feet of elevation to have clear direct line of site.

Antennaweb information is not always the best for recommendations. Most people (including me) have found that multi-directional antennas are not very good for digital reception in urban areas. They pick up reflections very easily and that is bad for digital receivers. A low-cost antenna to try is the Silver Sensor. Buy one somewhere that has a lenient return policy. After that, the next best might be the CM 4228 but it is $50 or more. Another cheap one for test is the double-bowtie from Radio Shack (930-0998 for $14.99) but it may not be stocked in stores.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Larry

Thanks for the prompt response and great info.

I will call Pringle Electronics tomorrow and see if they have the 4228 in stock. I have been trying to get through this whole thread and it sounds like I may be able to put the 4228 in my attic? If so, then it sounds like a great solution for me. Will I need to adjust the direction of the antenna for various channels or can I pretty much forget about it after the initial install?

I already run RG6 from my DirecTV dish through my attic, so I don't think it will be any problem for me to wire the antenna from there. I will be picking up the tuner tomorrow, so I will let you all know how it goes once I put it all together.

John - the attic is worth a try but don't be surprised if you get mixed results. Any metalic material in the roof or walls can cause problems. Your bearing to QA is 237 degrees. CH is a few degrees off to the south (233). KCPQ is temporarily only coming from Gold Mtn. (246 deg.) The 4228 should be able to cover that, QA and CH towers without a rotor if you aim at 240 degrees to hit the "middle" of the three. I assume you are not interested in PAX or shopping channels on the eastside. Let us know how it goes.

Larry

Originally posted by Tivopaul
Plan on putting the antenna outside, it will be a lot easier to dial in on the signal and keep it locked in...all my attempts to get an indoor/attic antenna to work have yielded spotty results....and I have spent countless hours on this.


Paul, thanks for your information. I am not sure I understand the above statement, though. Do you find that you have to adjust the position of the antenna throughout the game?

Also, It seems that aluminum siding is a major issue if considering attic placement. This is not an issue for me. Is it for you or do you simply find that attic placement is a bad idea in general?

(Edit: It looks like Larry is saying that it is just a bad idea in general. So, I guess I will have to play around a bit and see how differing placements work at my location.)

For superbowl use (which is my immediate concern) I will be glad to stick the antenna wherever I can get a signal. But I would be much more likely to continue with HD in the future, if I can find a convenient out-of-the-way place for the antenna.

John,

I have the 4221 (half of a 4228 basically), too and it is attic mounted. I do have a preamp on it, but I am quite a bit further north than you. Don't rule it out if this is what you would prefer.

-Lance

...how do i attenuate 9.5 without affecting the signal strength of any other transmissions

Originally posted by isfmd
...how do i attenuate 9.5 without affecting the signal strength of any other transmissions
When I was perusing the web to try to find a bandstop filter for ch 31, I ran across these folks: Tin Lee Electronics (http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_Filters.htm)

You would need to attenuate UHF ch 41 for KCTS.

The notch traps might be workable, they have the "CR7-(Fo)-HQU" for attenuating a specific UHF channel by 15 dB.

They also have band stop filters. You would probably need a custom unit, as the default ones are designed to REMOVE a channel with high attenuation (20 dB +).

I haven't ordered from them or dealt with them at all, so I am not endorsing this company. I don't have a clue what the cost would be either. I just thought I'd share what I found.

Anybody else deploy filters/traps like this?

-Mike

Originally posted by John Rush
Paul, thanks for your information. I am not sure I understand the above statement, though. Do you find that you have to adjust the position of the antenna throughout the game?

Also, It seems that aluminum siding is a major issue if considering attic placement. This is not an issue for me. Is it for you or do you simply find that attic placement is a bad idea in general?

(Edit: It looks like Larry is saying that it is just a bad idea in general. So, I guess I will have to play around a bit and see how differing placements work at my location.)

For superbowl use (which is my immediate concern) I will be glad to stick the antenna wherever I can get a signal. But I would be much more likely to continue with HD in the future, if I can find a convenient out-of-the-way place for the antenna.

John--
Here is my experience, in a nutshell...I bought a CM 4228, and mounted it in my attic (of a 1 year old house with Hardyboard siding). I can't get consistent results...I get some of the channels some of the time...often with bad breakup of the signal, even after I think I have it locked in. I suspect this is multipath interference...for me this causes even my best signals to fade in and out at times. If I move the antenna slightly, I pick up other channels, but the signal quality is inconsistent with those as well. As Larry mentioned, attic installations are known to be tricky, and this has been exactly my experience. Additionally the CM 4228 is highly directional, so I can't get all channels at any one time -- even CBS/NBC/ABC (even though I understand the towers are in the same area). I have spent many hours working through different placements in the attic, and also pointing it many different ways...but it hasn't really gotten significantly better. I tried a CM pre-amp as well and this added no improvement to speak of.

The CM 4228 is still in the attic...the I bought a CM 4221 to try it in the attic as well....thinking it was the antenna that was maybe the problem. From the attic with the CM 4221 (an antenna half the size of the 4228), I have a harder time finding a signal, with all of the same problems.

Faced with watching the game in non-HD last weekend (and concerned that I would be faced with the same for the Superbowl in two weeks), I dragged the 4221 outside...it took me less than 5 minutes to find a great (and solid!) signal with the antenna sitting on the ground. Again it was directional (after the game on CBS, I had to go out and and move it slightly to get the FOX game to come in without problem).

Others on this forum have had better luck with indoor installations, so you may have better luck than I have. In my experience, an antenna mountend outside will give you the fastest and most consistent results -- important, since the Superbowl is less than two weeks away.

As far as antenna selection -- if you plan on trying to do an indoor/attic mount, go for the CM 4228. If you know it will be for outdoor use only, the CM 4221 should do fine from Woodinville.

Paul

While it obviously didn't work for Paul, I wouldn't discount an attic installation right off the bat. I have a Radio Shack 2160 in my attic and I get all the Seattle stations plus KCPQ from Bremerton without breakups. I don't even have a rotor, I just pointed the antenna toward Seattle and left it.

It's pretty easy to set the antenna on the rafters and string the cable through the house as a trial.

Andy

Originally posted by lkinley
John,


Lowe's carries some antennas and so does Fry's. Fry's carries the Channel Master line, which is a favorite for the money around here.

-Lance

I was just at Fry's (Renton) this last weekend and all they had was Trek stuff. The guys there weren't very helpfull either. They didn't know much and wouldn't look to see if they had carried it in the past... "Whats on the self is what we've got and all that we are going to carry"...

Originally posted by heatho
I was just at Fry's (Renton) this last weekend and all they had was Trek stuff. The guys there weren't very helpfull either. They didn't know much and wouldn't look to see if they had carried it in the past... "Whats on the self is what we've got and all that we are going to carry"...

Typical. Several folks here have reported buying 4228's there, one of which was in the last two weeks.

-Lance

When I bought my 4228 It was leaning up against the Channel Master attennas in the isle, because it wouldn't fit on the rack. I didn't even see terk antennas. The channel master section is on the right as soon as you walk in the front door, next to all the resitors and stuff.
Hope this helps.
-Mason

I've been getting great reception from all the Seattle HD channels here in Tacoma over the last couple months via outdoor CM-4228. But as of about a week ago, KTWB (22-1) stopped coming in, after having been very reliable in the past. Does anyone know if they've changed their antenna orientation or dropped their power output level? Thanks!

When I bought my 4228 It was leaning up against the Channel Master attennas in the isle, because it wouldn't fit on the rack. I didn't even see terk antennas. The channel master section is on the right as soon as you walk in the front door, next to all the resitors and stuff.

I bet that's the problem! Some of us headed to the TV area at the back left and get shown the Terks instead. Nicely organized!

Yep, thats it... I went back to the where the TVs are and was shown the the TERKs... Maybe I'll head down there again this weekend to see if I can find that CM...

It's worth the effort to get the 4228 -- trust me!

I bought my CM4228 antenna and have a borrowed Hughes HIRD-E8 DirecTV "Platinum HD" tuner.

Initial result are very promising. I am picking many channels by simply putting the antenna in a room upstairs and pointing it in the right direction. I would still like to try moving it to my attic, but I can't see how my 4228 will fit in the attic opening. I thought I read a post earlier in this thread stating that it could be disassembled fairly easily. Unfortunately, it looks like it is put together with rivets. Any tips on disassembling and reassembling the antenna?

I have another problem which seems to be the fault of my projector. When I send it 1080i material from the decoder the image jumps up and down. When I send it SVideo it works fine. 480P also works fine, but the HD tuner supports only 1080i or SVideo. I know this is not the forum for this particular problem, so I will look elsewhere.

Larry,

I’m planning to install an antenna to receive local HD OTA. I would appreciate if you could check out my address for suitability.
417 226 th LN NE, Sammamish 98074

Thank you.

Originally posted by John Rush
I bought my CM4228 antenna and have a borrowed Hughes HIRD-E8 DirecTV "Platinum HD" tuner.

Initial result are very promising. I am picking many channels by simply putting the antenna in a room upstairs and pointing it in the right direction. I would still like to try moving it to my attic, but I can't see how my 4228 will fit in the attic opening. I thought I read a post earlier in this thread stating that it could be disassembled fairly easily. Unfortunately, it looks like it is put together with rivets. Any tips on disassembling and reassembling the antenna?

I have another problem which seems to be the fault of my projector. When I send it 1080i material from the decoder the image jumps up and down. When I send it SVideo it works fine. 480P also works fine, but the HD tuner supports only 1080i or SVideo. I know this is not the forum for this particular problem, so I will look elsewhere.

You have to drill the rivets and reassemble in the attic with bolts...

So the tuner doesn't have the option of 720P output?

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
You have to drill the rivets and reassemble in the attic with bolts...

So the tuner doesn't have the option of 720P output?

-Lance

Lance,

Thanks, I figured that would be the answer (drilling the rivets).

As far as I can tell there isn't a way to output 720P using this tuner. I don't have the remote, so there may be extra settings that I can access using that. I can get to the settings screens using the buttons on the front of the device, so I think I have seen all the options screens. I asked my friend to track down the remote, but I am not holding out much hope that it will help my situation.

Here's the latest FAQ revision. Feedback please!

-Lance

(See the updated version on page 33)

Hey guys I hate to tell you this but... I called Fry's in Renton on Sat 17th and they said they had 2 4228s in inventory (getting that out of their computer inventory program was like pulling teeth) but after looking for an hour they called me back and said their inventory must be wrong.

I am not easily dissuaded and know that many employees don't try very hard to locate merchandise. I went in on Monday. Guess what... they had it and asked if I wanted 2. Don't go to the antenna section back by the TVs. At the front of the store and to the right when you walk in there is a section that has hard drives, motherboards, CPU coolers etc.; go to the desk in this area and ask. They have an area by the furniture that is stock on racks that is not a customer area and this is where extra/large bulky items are stored. There may still be one; no tripods though.

Looks good Lance -- nice job. I have a couple of comments questions:

Do you want to include:

1) links to any online vendors? Some of them have more competitive pricing and I know of one that participates in the forum pretty frequently, offering advice to folks.

2) a list of the "parts" most folks will need to obtain to mount the antenna (ground wire [suggested gauge; solid vs. braided, etc.], mast, mount types [pros and cons; drilling in roof vs. eave or chimney mount, proper grounding, grounding blocks, etc.) and links to threads on this topic or brief tips?

3) a brief discussion of "subchannels"/multicasting?

4) tips on sighting in/aligning the antenna?

5) you mention the symptoms of analog multipath; perhaps you should mention that digital multipath often results in intermittent signals going from strong to weak, strong to weak...

Some of these comments may be useless, as much of this info is pretty obvious/basic to some. However, these were questions I sought answers to in my quest to get my antenna up.

Thanks Lance!

Originally posted by felthove
2) a list of the "parts" most folks will need to obtain to mount the antenna (ground wire [suggested gauge; solid vs. braided, etc.], mast, mount types [pros and cons; drilling in roof vs. eave or chimney mount, proper grounding, grounding blocks, etc.) and links to threads on this topic or brief tips?


I addressed the other items in your list, but I'll need someone else to write something up on this. I have an attic installation and have no experience with outside mounting whatsoever.

Any volunteers?

-Lance

Lance -- I am not the most mechanically inclined, but I do have a few links here that might be helpful.

The first provides a link a an online manual for antenna installation. It is good except for the fact that it doesn't emphasize the importance of grounding to your house's underground electric ground. However, a comment in the thread makes this point clearly and provides other links on this topic.

The second link describes the items I had to buy and what they cost (sort of). My mast was $8 at Lowes for 5' and wire was $.13/ foot. I've included a final that shows the different mounts (and thier costs) offered by Radio Shack.

Perhaps the info in the latter two links could be incorporated into a question like "what will it cost to obtain and mount my antenna?"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=313742&highlight=grounding

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3006791#post3006791

http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F004&Page=1

Originally posted by Grzegorz
Larry,

I’m planning to install an antenna to receive local HD OTA. I would appreciate if you could check out my address for suitability.
417 226 th LN NE, Sammamish 98074

Thank you.
I can't find 226th Lane (probably a new street). So I used the intersection of NE 4th and 7th NW which should be in the general area. That location looks pretty good but there are a few hills around there. If you can give me Lat-Lon data or direction and distance from 4th & 7th I can do a better job.

Larry

Originally posted by quarque
I can't find 226th Lane (probably a new street). So I used the intersection of NE 4th and 7th NW which should be in the general area. That location looks pretty good but there are a few hills around there. If you can give me Lat-Lon data or direction and distance from 4th & 7th I can do a better job.

Larry

Latitude: 47.61355 North
Longitude: 122.03788 West

Thank you.

Originally posted by lkinley
Here's the latest FAQ revision. Feedback please!

-Lance
Lance - getting better each time. The only thing I thought of while reading this iteration was you could mention that I will do line-of-site checks for people in the Puget Sound area. They can post in the Seattle forums or PM me with their location. One problem I am having more and more is the multitude of new streets that are not on my (2 yr old) topo map. If they can provide latitude & longitude data that is the best. Alternatively, they can provide distance and bearing to an "established" intersection (you know, where the old run-down houses are).

Is there a way to get your FAQ listed with or incorporated with the HDTV FAQ listed at the top of this forum? There is some overlap with that document but you cover many topics it does not. There is also the fact that some of yours is relavent only to Puget Sound.

Larry

Originally posted by Grzegorz
Latitude: 47.61355 North
Longitude: 122.03788 West

Thank you.
Well I was only about 200 feet off to the SW of your location in my "guess". You have no major problems with hills.

Larry

I live in Bremerton (Ilahee area) near the corner of NE 1st and Sunset. I just installed a CM 4228 with no pre-amp. I now receive all Queen Anne and Capitol hill broadcasts except that 4-1 comes in at about 215 deg. but not at 67 deg. as it should, and it breaks up occasionally (multipath?). With my radio shack antenna, I had a similar problem with 13-1 coming in at abt 270 deg. instead of 224 deg; I no longer have that problem with te 4228.

I tried a variable attenuator to see if I had too strong a signal with no luck. I will be buying a CM 7777 pre amp to see if that helps. When I have the antenna aimed at about 67 deg I get some signal on my LG 3510A signal scale so maybe this will do the trick. Ideas?!?

Originally posted by Newk2
I live in Bremerton (Ilahee area) near the corner of NE 1st and Sunset. I just installed a CM 4228 with no pre-amp. I now receive all Queen Anne and Capitol hill broadcasts except that 4-1 comes in at about 215 deg. but not at 67 deg. as it should, and it breaks up occasionally (multipath?). With my radio shack antenna, I had a similar problem with 13-1 coming in at abt 270 deg. instead of 224 deg; I no longer have that problem with te 4228.

I tried a variable attenuator to see if I had too strong a signal with no luck. I will be buying a CM 7777 pre amp to see if that helps. When I have the antenna aimed at about 67 deg I get some signal on my LG 3510A signal scale so maybe this will do the trick. Ideas?!?
Several people on the west side of the pond have had trouble with some QA or CH stations. Probably due to the fact that the transmit antennas are aimed towards the east. Your pickup of KOMO at 215 deg. is a reflected signal, which will be problematic. The amp is worth a try but watch out for too much signal on stations other than KOMO. Unless I have the wrong location, your bearing to QA is 85 deg, not 67 (85 being 5 deg north of due east). Perhaps repointing your antenna would help. Note that 13-1 and 22-1 are not not being duplicated at Bremerton or CH tower since 1-1-04.

Larry

"Unless I have the wrong location, your bearing to QA is 85 deg, not 67 (85 being 5 deg north of due east)."

Thanks for the info Larry.

I have a rotator so I just bring in the strongest signal. I figure If I have it pointed for 5-1 I should be in the right position for 4-1. I was using the degrees off of antennaweb.org but my rotator does show it slightly north of due east. Antennaweb is not very accurate; I now have my brain engaged while looking at the antennaweb site and at least a quarter of the compass directions for my location are dead wrong.

I want to add my splitter in the attic back into the mix so I am hoping that the gain I get from an amplifier coupled with the attenuation of the splitter will allow reception of 4-1 without providing too much signal on others. Hey, I always have the variable attenuator (0-20 db).

My continuing saga to try and pick up KOMO DT from North Kitsap county... Decided to try out a CM4228 to see if I could kill some multipath.

FYI... Fry's said they were out of CM4228 when I was there last Wed... "just try back in a couple days" they said.

Got the last one at Pringle's on Thursday.

After spending the better part of a day cobbling together a tiltable mount out of random Home Depot and Rat Shack goodies, finally got it up in the attic.

I only had about 20 minutes to mess around with pointing, but got KOMO to lock on until I changed channels and it wouldn't come back. Have lost KING now also. Will be trying to get up there this week to do some serious pointing.

Question, I have the antenna in my attic so the only grounding I currently am using is via the grounding block on the coax. Do I need to ground the mast (and consequently the reflector grid) to get the high front-to-back ratio advertised for this antenna? IE, is the grid acting as a drain for signals coming in the back end? On that note, does anybody see any problem with grounding it to my gas furnace flue (which is grounded at the furnace itself via a cold water pipe).

thanks,

Mike

Originally posted by Spike89
My continuing saga to try and pick up KOMO DT from North Kitsap county... Decided to try out a CM4228 to see if I could kill some multipath.

Question, I have the antenna in my attic so the only grounding I currently am using is via the grounding block on the coax. Do I need to ground the mast (and consequently the reflector grid) to get the high front-to-back ratio advertised for this antenna? IE, is the grid acting as a drain for signals coming in the back end? On that note, does anybody see any problem with grounding it to my gas furnace flue (which is grounded at the furnace itself via a cold water pipe).

thanks,

Mike
Grounding in an attic is not absolutely necessary from what I've heard. The main reason for grounding outdoor antennas is to drain off static charge. There should be little/no static build up in an attic. If you are going to ground it, use a reliable ground like a water pipe using a pipe clamp designed for the purpose. I would stay away from the flue.

The grid on the back side of the antenna acts like a shield. It blocks signals from that direction. Grounding the mast might improve the effectiveness of the screen since it is connected to the mast/frame.

Originally posted by quarque
Grounding in an attic is not absolutely necessary from what I've heard. The main reason for grounding outdoor antennas is to drain off static charge. There should be little/no static build up in an attic. If you are going to ground it, use a reliable ground like a water pipe using a pipe clamp designed for the purpose. I would stay away from the flue.

The grid on the back side of the antenna acts like a shield. It blocks signals from that direction. Grounding the mast might improve the effectiveness of the screen since it is connected to the mast/frame.

Thanks for the info. I might ground it temporarily to the flue just to see if reception improves and if so seek out a more permanent/correct solution. I also was looking at a map and I think the antennaweb transmitter directions list true directions, not magnetic. If so, I'm about 18.3 degrees off in my aiming!

-Mike

Holy crap - the employee's at fry's are incredibly stupid. I called to see if they have a cm 7777 preamp in stock and how much, seems easy enough, right?
He comes back to the phone 5 min. later and says "sir, we don't have channel masters. Your talking about antenna's, right?" Employee's should know the products they sell and and who makes them. Apparently I lost the guy at "Channel Master", then again at "preamp", then again with "model 7777". I was speechless, I told him "forget about it, this task is obviously to tough".
Now I have to drive all the way down there to find out for myself. You would think that he would have the common sense to look it up on a computer, rather than wandering aimlessly around the store, but what do I know.

Peas

Sounds like the management at Fry's needs to hear about the poor customer service and misinformation given out at times. I suggest everyone who deals with them start complaining to the store manager. Their stores in California are almost legendary for assisting customers.

Originally posted by Spike89
Thanks for the info. I might ground it temporarily to the flue just to see if reception improves and if so seek out a more permanent/correct solution. I also was looking at a map and I think the antennaweb transmitter directions list true directions, not magnetic. If so, I'm about 18.3 degrees off in my aiming!

-Mike
I guess I didn't realize how many people might be thinking magnetic headings. All the information I give out is based on true north (used by most maps). 0 is north, 90 is east, 180 is south etc.

From the antennaweb.org site: " Use the "Compass Orientation" listed below to point your antenna or rotor system for the channels you wish to receive. Please note that "Compass Orientation" is referenced to magnetic North."

I know that whenver you set up a Dish system Dish refers to magnetic north.

Antennaweb is still way off as stations in Everrett have the same compass orientation for me as those in Queen Anne.

I was at Fry's eight days ago and they did not have the CM 7777. The outpost site shows some other ones and these were the ones they had at the store in Renton. I have checked with a couple of online stores and the 7777 is on back order until mid Feb. along with the 7775. The 7778 is available though.

Originally posted by Newk2


Antennaweb is still way off as stations in Everrett have the same compass orientation for me as those in Queen Anne.



There are no DTV towers in Everett. If you are referring to KONG, it is on QA hill with KING.

Originally posted by quarque
There are no DTV towers in Everett. If you are referring to KONG, it is on QA hill with KING.

My bad. Yes, antennaweb lists Kong as in Everett so I assumed the tower was there as well.

I believe that the street level map is true North and the compass orientation is magnetic North on antennaweb. Apart from the above misconception this has been part of my confusion.

FYI, I was at frys this morning and they have one 4228 laying flat above the other Cm's.

peas

Reading through this, it looks like the only way I'll be able to pick up the Super Bowl in HD will be to go with an OTA tuner and antenna. I live in a north facing apartment in Issaquah, so my options are fairly limited in what I can do. Any suggestions for how to pull in a signal to watch the Super Bowl?

Originally posted by LordKestrel
Reading through this, it looks like the only way I'll be able to pick up the Super Bowl in HD will be to go with an OTA tuner and antenna. I live in a north facing apartment in Issaquah, so my options are fairly limited in what I can do. Any suggestions for how to pull in a signal to watch the Super Bowl?

It probably depends on where you are in Issaquah. When I lived in Mirrormont, south-east of downtown Issaquah, I was in the shadow of Tiger Mountain and couldn't get anything.

However, if you live downtown or in one of the apartments as you head up the hill toward the plateau, you should have a pretty good shot.

Do a search through this forum on the Silver Sensor antenna. It's generally thought of as the best indoor antenna you can get. Many people are using it that are quite a bit further from the transmitters than you are.

Hi all,

Larry, is there any chance you could run my address through your topo mapping program to tell me what chances I have for OTA HDTV? 17523 214th Ave NE, Woodinville.

I've got good DirecTV HDTV and I had an installer come to mount an HDTV antenna. Unfortunately, the one he wanted to mount was extremely ugly and wouldn't pass my WAF test. So, I had him take it down. During the test and without any positioning whatsoever, he was able to pull in quite a few high-def digital OTA channels. I'm hoping that either a Zenith Silver Sensor or the new Winegard SquareShooter will be the answer.

Thanks,
Greg

I'm just south of I90, at the Newport Way exit, so relatively high altitude. I'll look for a Silver Sensor, as an inside antenna would be best.

Larry,

Can you check this location?

63rd and 114th, Bellevue 98006.

Thanks.

Originally posted by gregbl
Hi all,

Larry, is there any chance you could run my address through your topo mapping program to tell me what chances I have for OTA HDTV? 17523 214th Ave NE, Woodinville.

I've got good DirecTV HDTV and I had an installer come to mount an HDTV antenna. Unfortunately, the one he wanted to mount was extremely ugly and wouldn't pass my WAF test. So, I had him take it down. During the test and without any positioning whatsoever, he was able to pull in quite a few high-def digital OTA channels. I'm hoping that either a Zenith Silver Sensor or the new Winegard SquareShooter will be the answer.

Thanks,
Greg
Greg - your LOS to QA towers looks pretty good. You just barely miss a hill to the southwest. Keep your antenna as high up as practical. I just got an email today saying that the Winegard SquareShooter solved a problem that the CM4228 could not (downtown Seattle multipath galore). It is not as high gain as the 4228 but that is moot below 40 miles. Good luck.

Larry

Originally posted by sund
Larry,

Can you check this location?

63rd and 114th, Bellevue 98006.

Thanks.
Welcome to the AVS forum. You have no hills to worry about, so it's all up to antenna type and placement. Good luck.

Originally posted by quarque
Greg - your LOS to QA towers looks pretty good. You just barely miss a hill to the southwest. Keep your antenna as high up as practical. I just got an email today saying that the Winegard SquareShooter solved a problem that the CM4228 could not (downtown Seattle multipath galore). It is not as high gain as the 4228 but that is moot below 40 miles. Good luck.

Larry
Thanks a bunch Larry!

I may try the Winegard SquareShooter and see what type of reception I get. Fortunately I'm on the higher part of the west side of a hill, so I get a pretty good shot over most of the trees.

Whatever happens, I'll report my results back here in this thread.

This is a great thread, I see there might be some hope I can get OTA HDTV in Duvall!

Larry, could you look up my address and see if there might be hope?

14823 1st Ave NE, Duvall, WA 98019

that is about 100 yards East of Kennedy and SR-203.

Thanks so much for helping out!

-Allen

Hello all,

I'm running a Zenith Silver Sensor indoors in Fremont. I get great reception on CBS and NBC (over 90% on a myHD) but ABC is problematic. Sometimes it comes in at 59-64% and is totally fine. Other times it's the same strength but the audio chops out a lot. Still other times I get no signal.

Does this sound like a multipath problem? Does anyone else have anything to report on ABC - in particular if they are located in Fremont? I'm halfway up Francis Ave N from 36th Ave.

PS What's the deal with FOX? 22-1 and 22-2 I don't recall which is which, but it seems FOX is off the air while the WB is still broadcasting, but on the same channel.

Thanks for the help!
Chris

Originally posted by AllenA
This is a great thread, I see there might be some hope I can get OTA HDTV in Duvall!

Larry, could you look up my address and see if there might be hope?

14823 1st Ave NE, Duvall, WA 98019

that is about 100 yards East of Kennedy and SR-203.

Thanks so much for helping out!

-Allen
Welcome to the forum Allen. Your line of sight to the QA towers does not look very good. To the southwest (across the Snoqualmie river basin) there is a 580 foot high plateau and your house is only at about 200 feet. When you draw a straight line from your house through the top of that plateau you come out several hundred feet above the transmitters. However, there are refraction effects (bending) when the signals go over that plateau. This would bring the signal lower at your location. My advice would be to evaluate your location with borrowed equipment or by paying a pro to do it. If you have a 2-3 story house and put a mast on the roof you might be able to get OTA. But I wouldn't invest a lot of money until you can verify the conditions. Let us know what you find.

Larry

Originally posted by cdt9c1
Hello all,

I'm running a Zenith Silver Sensor indoors in Fremont. I get great reception on CBS and NBC (over 90% on a myHD) but ABC is problematic. Sometimes it comes in at 59-64% and is totally fine. Other times it's the same strength but the audio chops out a lot. Still other times I get no signal.

Does this sound like a multipath problem? Does anyone else have anything to report on ABC - in particular if they are located in Fremont? I'm halfway up Francis Ave N from 36th Ave.

PS What's the deal with FOX? 22-1 and 22-2 I don't recall which is which, but it seems FOX is off the air while the WB is still broadcasting, but on the same channel.

Thanks for the help!
Chris
Chris - I don't live in Fremont but I can answer some of your questions. Your problem with ABC does sound like multipath. This is very tricky to solve - it is almost all trial and error. The first thing to try is the location and orientation of the SS antenna. Try everything you can. The next thing would be an attenuator since you are so close to the towers. The idea being to reduce all the signals and hope the survivor is the one you want. The next step would be to try a different antenna. There is a lot of talk about the Winegard Square Shooter. I've looked at the specs and it is impressive in that it has very low sensitivity to anything not coming at it from the front (+/- 30 degrees).

As for FOX, the towers owned by 13 and 22 were being shared since the stations are owned by the same company. So both Capitol Hill and Gold Mtn. near Bremerton were carrying both DT signals. This "cross-carriage" ended on Jan. 1st because of some legal entanglements with licensing of programs and coverage etc. So now we have to get 22 from CH and 13 from Bremerton. Unfortunately for you and lots of people Bremerton is not available because of hills. You have Discovery Park in the way. The estimate I got from the CE at KCPQ was that it will take a while to get cross-carriage going again. It's all about money, what else.

Larry

Originally posted by quarque
Greg - your LOS to QA towers looks pretty good. You just barely miss a hill to the southwest. Keep your antenna as high up as practical. I just got an email today saying that the Winegard SquareShooter solved a problem that the CM4228 could not (downtown Seattle multipath galore). It is not as high gain as the 4228 but that is moot below 40 miles. Good luck.

Larry

Larry,

I'm in Lynnwood and about 16-17 miles away from the main local DTV towers in Seattle. You have previously confirmed that my location has a good LOS. My problem is that I have a band of very tall trees right behind my house (in the direction of Seattle) and I'm afraid that these will prevent me from getting a signal. Do you think the Square Shooter would be my best bet or would the 4228 be better? Any ideas?

Also, is there an "easy" way to confirm I can receive a signal before I go and buy a receiver? I really don't want to go through all the trouble of ordering the receiver and antenna and then if I find out that I can't get a good signal, I've got to return everything. Is there a local company perhaps that can check my location for a small fee?

Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

Originally posted by subspace
Larry,

I'm in Lynnwood and about 16-17 miles away from the main local DTV towers in Seattle. You have previously confirmed that my location has a good LOS. My problem is that I have a band of very tall trees right behind my house (in the direction of Seattle) and I'm afraid that these will prevent me from getting a signal. Do you think the Square Shooter would be my best bet or would the 4228 be better? Any ideas?

Also, is there an "easy" way to confirm I can receive a signal before I go and buy a receiver? I really don't want to go through all the trouble of ordering the receiver and antenna and then if I find out that I can't get a good signal, I've got to return everything. Is there a local company perhaps that can check my location for a small fee?

Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
There are professional installers who will evaluate your location for $75-$100 or free if you pay for an install. How is your reception of analog UHF?

I would lean towards the 4228 because of its higher gain and larger area. Try to buy your stuff at places with a lenient return policy. Many understand that it is all a crap shoot until you hook it up and try. Talk to the HD resellers in your area about installers or post a separate plea on this forum to see if there are any recommendations from members.

Welcome to the forum Allen. Your line of sight to the QA towers does not look very good. To the southwest (across the Snoqualmie river basin) there is a 580 foot high plateau and your house is only at about 200 feet. When you draw a straight line from your house through the top of that plateau you come out several hundred feet above the transmitters. However, there are refraction effects (bending) when the signals go over that plateau. This would bring the signal lower at your location. My advice would be to evaluate your location with borrowed equipment or by paying a pro to do it. If you have a 2-3 story house and put a mast on the roof you might be able to get OTA. But I wouldn't invest a lot of money until you can verify the conditions. Let us know what you find.

Thanks for the info, I'll probably wait until DTV comes out with the HDTV Tivo, then try and pick up OTA. I was never too hopeful, but it is good to know there might be a small chance.

Thanks

-Allen

Here's the latest update. If everything looks good, I'll change it from DRAFT status and see if I can get it linked to in the main FAQ.

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
Here's the latest update. If everything looks good, I'll change it from DRAFT status and see if I can get it linked to in the main FAQ.

-Lance
Lance - the only thing you might add is the new Winegard Square Shooter (WSS) antenna to the list. It is getting good reviews from people and won an award at a recent trade show. I recently received an email from Don W. who retired from KOMO and still consults on DTV projects. He mentioned that the WSS solved a tricky multipath problem in downtown Seattle that had stymied even the CM 4228. The specs on the WSS look very good. Not as high gain as the 4228 but plenty for those within 30 miles of a tower. Only drawback? Price ~$100.

Larry

Originally posted by quarque
Lance - the only thing you might add is the new Winegard Square Shooter (WSS) antenna to the list...

Larry I have ordered this antenna and as soon as it comes I'll be able to do a review of it and tell everyone how it does for me. I'm expecting it sometime next week, so I should have it functional before next weekend.

I find it interesting that some of the "experts" poo-poo this new antenna but most of the people who are actually using it find it works great. So who does one believe? In my 20+ years in a hi-tech industry, I have found that the "real world" beats the "book world" much of the time. Design specs just don't tell the whole story. I'm not saying that there aren't some unattractive things in the SS specs, but on this one I tend to think it is not a gimmick like Terk and some others that just don't work (in any world). We look forward to your report Greg.

subspace - I'm just north of Fred Meyer in Lynnwood and get all the DTV signals strongly except KCPQ Bremerton, which requires a rotation. No trees in my way. I'm using a 20 year old medium sized UHF VHF combo on the roof. I'd do what someone suggested, try an antenna from a store like Radio Shack, with a liberal return policy. Good luck.

Originally posted by Jiff
subspace - I'm just north of Fred Meyer in Lynnwood and get all the DTV signals strongly except KCPQ Bremerton, which requires a rotation. No trees in my way. I'm using a 20 year old medium sized UHF VHF combo on the roof. I'd do what someone suggested, try an antenna from a store like Radio Shack, with a liberal return policy. Good luck.

Thanks Jiff,
What receiver do you use?

I'm considering the RCA ATSC11 which is going for about $400. I'm sure the tree behind my house will reduce (if not eliminate) my signal strength but I'm hoping the combination of a good antenna and a receiver which is good at accepting "weak" signals will work for me. Thanks again!

Is the adversion to a rotator the reason for not using a Yagi in the Puget Sound area? If you are having a tough time I would suggest a Yagi

I use a Channelmaster 4248 and CM7775 preamp with a rotator.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

I get great reception even in really bad weather. I have used the Radio
Shack Yagi. The 15-2160 might work for a lot of folks at $24 and like its been said the return policy at Radio Shack is pretty darn good.

http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&Page=1

I also had good luck with the Antennacraft MXU59 which is down to 41.12 list price.
http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/MXU.htm



You may need a rotator with a yagi but its a good thing for two reasons to use the yagi. It is highly directional which usually gives you a stronger signal and the second is it more resistant to multipath. Thats why I use a yagi. I have a lot of trees between the towers and my house and I am able to fine tune my reception to gain a highly dependable signal even with the mulipath.

subspace - I have the Zenith 1080. I originally had the Mits 400(?) and couldn't get KCPQ and the others by pointing my antenna between Seattle and Bremerton (KCPQ). I read here that the Zenith was more receptive than the Mits so replaced it, but it didn't do any better than the Mits. I bought the Zenith a couple years ago and don't think it's on the market anymore. Don't know anything about the newer STBs.

Originally posted by wezar
Is the adversion to a rotator the reason for not using a Yagi in the Puget Sound area? If you are having a tough time I would suggest a Yagi

I use a Channelmaster 4248 and CM7775 preamp with a rotator.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

I get great reception even in really bad weather. I have used the Radio
Shack Yagi. The 15-2160 might work for a lot of folks at $24 and like its been said the return policy at Radio Shack is pretty darn good.

http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&Page=1

I also had good luck with the Antennacraft MXU59 which is down to 41.12 list price.
http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/MXU.htm

You may need a rotator with a yagi but its a good thing for two reasons to use the yagi. It is highly directional which usually gives you a stronger signal and the second is it more resistant to multipath. Thats why I use a yagi. I have a lot of trees between the towers and my house and I am able to fine tune my reception to gain a highly dependable signal even with the mulipath.

Thanks for the info wezar... Now I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go with a yagi...? I suppose I should start out with a less directional option (like the 4228) and if I'm still in need of a stronger signal I could try a yagi.

I find this all a bit of a pain since I need to buy the receiver, buy the antenna, install the antenna (at least install it well enough to properly test it) and then it still may not work... I'm desperate enough for HDTV that I'm sure I'll go through all this trouble, but I still wish it was easier. :mad:

Anyway, thanks for the info. I think I'm going to order the RCA ATSC11 now and then try and find an antenna locally. Does anyone know if there is a place in the Puget Sound region that sell Channel Master and also accepts returns...?

Wezar:
I'm with you.
I use a 4248 and a rotator and get amazing reception from all HD channels.
Highly recommend to anyone encountering problems.
Tom

Originally posted by wezar
Is the adversion to a rotator the reason for not using a Yagi in the Puget Sound area? If you are having a tough time I would suggest a Yagi

I use a Channelmaster 4248 and CM7775 preamp with a rotator.

...

You may need a rotator with a yagi but its a good thing for two reasons to use the yagi. It is highly directional which usually gives you a stronger signal and the second is it more resistant to multipath. Thats why I use a yagi. I have a lot of trees between the towers and my house and I am able to fine tune my reception to gain a highly dependable signal even with the mulipath.

see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

If you look at the polar plots (not the gain plots) for the 4228 and 4248 you will see that the 4228 is actually slightly more directional (as well as higher gain). There is no "aversion" to yagis, just a preference to the 4228 for its performance. In most situations you would be hard pressed to tell any difference between the two because they have very similar specs. You can use a rotor with the 4228 if needed. Most people try to avoid the extra expense. Depending on your location it may not be an option. Some people don't like the long boom of the yagi design (difficult to rotate in an attic for instance).

Originally posted by subspace
Thanks Jiff,
What receiver do you use?

I'm considering the RCA ATSC11 which is going for about $400. I'm sure the tree behind my house will reduce (if not eliminate) my signal strength but I'm hoping the combination of a good antenna and a receiver which is good at accepting "weak" signals will work for me. Thanks again!

You might want to check with Magnolia A/V. They had a bunch of Sammy 151's they were unloading for around $250.

I agree on the attic installation issue. Still I think the 4248 is a better antenna for outdoor use. But then again I have not tried the 4228 yet. I based my choice on others recomendations, including the stark electronics site.

"CM #4248 DIAMOND QUANTUM I consider it the best UHF tv antenna on the market today."

I have used a Panny DST-50, RCA DTC-100 and Mits SRHD400. The SRHD400 died and has been replaced by a Sony HD300. I recorded the Superbowl today with no problems on the DST-50 a first generation reciever.


I will have to try the 4228 this year just to see if it makes a difference.

I just thought others might give a Yagi a chance when others don't work.


Edit: After looking at the data a 4228 should be the better antenna. I will have to give one a try.

THe general rule of thumb is that as you increase gain with UHF antennas, you become more directional.

I have the 4228 on a 10-foot mast in Sammamish, 15 miles out from the antennas in Seattle, and 37 (??) from Bremerton. We point directly into a large grove of trees. Get signals in the 70's-90's on all relevant channels (six networks).

Originally posted by JM Anthony
You might want to check with Magnolia A/V. They had a bunch of Sammy 151's they were unloading for around $250.

Wow, $250 sounds like a pretty good price. Does anyone know if the Samsung 151 is the "same" as the RCA ATSC11? I think I read something recently where someone said they were essentially the same unit with slightly different enclosure case and remote...

Also, do you happen to know if Magnolia sells the 4228?

Thanks again for all this infomration! Everyone's posts are really helpful.

Magnolia does not sell the 4228. You have either Frys or Pringle Electronics in Everett as local options. Online vendors may be your best bet. See the Puget Sound DTV FAQ I've put together and posted in this thread for specific info.

I would suggest a newer DTV tuner than the Sammy 151 or RCA ATSC11. The LG LST-3100A (which I own) is a next generation tuner that has gotten rave reviews on it's ability to lock onto signals and filter multipath. One of these can be had for $350. It has DVI/HDCP, component, RGB (VGA), S-video and composite outputs and both optical and coaxial digital as well as regular stereo RCA audio outputs. It also has a plethora of scaling options (expand,shrink,crop,letterbox) and can output 1080i/720p/480p/480i. It has simultaneous 480i output on the s-video/composite regardless of what the HD output is doing. There is one problem with this unit, however. It is really hard to find in stock!

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
Magnolia does not sell the 4228. You have either Frys or Pringle Electronics in Everett as local options. Online vendors may be your best bet. See the Puget Sound DTV FAQ I've put together and posted in this thread for specific info.

I would suggest a newer DTV tuner than the Sammy 151 or RCA ATSC11. The LG LST-3100A (which I own) is a next generation tuner that has gotten rave reviews on it's ability to lock onto signals and filter multipath. One of these can be had for $350. It has DVI/HDCP, component, RGB (VGA), S-video and composite outputs and both optical and coaxial digital as well as regular stereo RCA audio outputs. It also has a plethora of scaling options (expand,shrink,crop,letterbox) and can output 1080i/720p/480p/480i. It has simultaneous 480i output on the s-video/composite regardless of what the HD output is doing. There is one problem with this unit, however. It is really hard to find in stock!

-Lance

Lance, That's funny that you suggested the 3100A because I am now leaning toward that unit instead of the ATSC11. I've been reading various threads and it does seem to be a better unit (at a very good price). Did you buy your 3100A locally or via mail? I'm thinking that I will buy it locally if I can find it? Do you know if Fry's carries the LGs?

I got the 3100A online. I'll PM you as to where.

I highly doubt Frys has these, as even the online vendors wait long periods for new shipments from Zenith (LG).

-Lance

Originally posted by lkinley
I got the 3100A online. I'll PM you as to where.

I highly doubt Frys has these, as even the online vendors wait long periods for new shipments from Zenith (LG).

-Lance

Thanks again Lance. I'm okay with ordering on-line although I'm hoping that where ever I order from, they'll have a good return policy (in case I can't pull in a signal where I live). Anyway, I'll look for you PM. :)

Off topic....
Anyone know if KONG plans on going HD for the Sonics games? I'm spoiled now and find myself looking first to HD programming for all of my viewing.
Tom

Hi Larry!

I'm hoping to get HDTV in the Bridle Trails neighborhood of Bellevue near the corner of 131st Ave NE and NE 33rd St. From peeking at AntennaWeb, I know that I don't have a great line of sight, but I am certainly willing to mount a big antenna on the top of my multistory residence to get decent reception. Do you think I have a shot with a regular rooftop antenna? I've been poking around online and found some references to people cleaning up reception in situations like this with horizontal arrays of UHF antennae - do you know of anyone trying such a thing here in Seattle?

Hello Larry,

I was hoping you could check my location for UHF signal reception. I am located in the Echo Lake Area in Snohomish.

Lat: +47.779540
Long: -122.045354

Thanks,

Bill

Hello all,

Is anyone in the Seattle area receiving stereo audio on UPN's (KSTW) HDTV programs?
I've been watching Enterprise the last few weeks and have not been getting stereo. I'm trying to determine if this is an problem on my end or is it being broadcast in mono. I do get the Sunday (digital) re-broadcast in stereo.

Originally posted by Dave Buchthal
Hi Larry!

I'm hoping to get HDTV in the Bridle Trails neighborhood of Bellevue near the corner of 131st Ave NE and NE 33rd St. From peeking at AntennaWeb, I know that I don't have a great line of sight, but I am certainly willing to mount a big antenna on the top of my multistory residence to get decent reception. Do you think I have a shot with a regular rooftop antenna? I've been poking around online and found some references to people cleaning up reception in situations like this with horizontal arrays of UHF antennae - do you know of anyone trying such a thing here in Seattle?
Your elevation is about 400 feet and 1/2 mile west of you is a 500 foot hill - this you probably know. Setting an array of antennas would be a waste of time. If there is no signal, no amount of array building or amplification will solve the problem. What you need is a mast on the roof of your house. If you can get something close to 50 feet off the ground you stand a chance. I suggest the CM 4228 antenna. As a test you could try a small antenna on a pole to see if your receiver gets anything. You could also hire a pro installer for about $100 to come over and find out how high you need to go. If you pay for the install the $100 is usually credited.

Originally posted by wlong
Hello Larry,

I was hoping you could check my location for UHF signal reception. I am located in the Echo Lake Area in Snohomish.

Lat: +47.779540
Long: -122.045354

Thanks,

Bill
Bill - you are in luck. You are on a nice plateau with no problem hills. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Larry

Thanks!! Considering the incline driving up Echo Lake road, I thought I would be well off in terms of Line of Sight. I do have a lot of trees though.

I have a Silver Sensor antenna now, and I get a lot of channels in very well. Some seem to have some snow or some ghosting however. I don't have my HD Tuner yet (it comes on 2/8). Should I expect the signal to be better on the HD Tuner? I have it plugged into my Built in Standard tuner on my Hitachi 65T500. I ordered a $10 Zenith Amplifier (0-20dB) hoping it would bring in the channels better but that wont arrive for another week.

Thoughts?

Thanks so much!

Bill

Originally posted by wlong
Thanks!! Considering the incline driving up Echo Lake road, I thought I would be well off in terms of Line of Sight. I do have a lot of trees though.

I have a Silver Sensor antenna now, and I get a lot of channels in very well. Some seem to have some snow or some ghosting however. I don't have my HD Tuner yet (it comes on 2/8). Should I expect the signal to be better on the HD Tuner? I have it plugged into my Built in Standard tuner on my Hitachi 65T500. I ordered a $10 Zenith Amplifier (0-20dB) hoping it would bring in the channels better but that wont arrive for another week.

Thoughts?

Thanks so much!

Bill
Digital reception is a little different from analog. There is no half-way reception - you either get a channel or you don't. Ghosting on analog translates to multipath interference on digital which is bad news. The key to good digital reception is NOT amplification. It is using a highly directional antenna with just enough gain for your location. Too much gain will just pull in more multipath. If anything, an attenuator is a better tool. The Silver Sensor works well in many situations. If you find you are getting signals but the strength bounces all over on some channels then you are picking up reflections. This calls for a more directional antenna. The CM 4228 seems to be the favorite.

I dont get it on a lot of channels. Actually, there is one I get a lot of multipath on and that is Channel 13. I really want to avoid an outdoor antenna since I dont have any attic access and they are uglier than sin IMO.

Most of the channels come in well, in fact I don't have an issue with most of the reception, other than some snow. I'll try this amp and I will get the other device you mentioned as well for a test.

Can you suggest a good attenuator and possible a good place to find one?

Thx,
Bill

Radio Shack has them for a reasonable price. I'd wait and see what your receiver does with a straight connection to the Silver Sensor.

Larry

Here is the question of the century for you... :)

Does cabling matter? If so, is high end Monster Cable worth the cost?

Originally posted by quarque
Your elevation is about 400 feet and 1/2 mile west of you is a 500 foot hill - this you probably know. Setting an array of antennas would be a waste of time. If there is no signal, no amount of array building or amplification will solve the problem. What you need is a mast on the roof of your house. If you can get something close to 50 feet off the ground you stand a chance. I suggest the CM 4228 antenna. As a test you could try a small antenna on a pole to see if your receiver gets anything. You could also hire a pro installer for about $100 to come over and find out how high you need to go. If you pay for the install the $100 is usually credited.

I hired "Dan the Antenna Man" to do such a survey up to about 35 feet above ground level, and his call was that my situation is pretty dicey. He got strong signal, but it was very "spiky" along the frequency bands on any particular channel, with the spikes moving as the wind blew. In his experience, he finds that most HDTV tuners have trouble locking onto a waveform with this kind of shape. Looking at pages like http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm, it appears that the author here increases waveform uniformity by putting multiple antennae into a harness. Is that not something that people have generally tried locally?

Wlong -- the short answer is yes, cable matters. However, it matters in the sense of making sure your video cables have the proper impedance (75 ohm) and don't exhibit a high degree of loss (measured in db) over long runs. Proper shielding from interference can be helpful too. Audio cables are a longer story...and perhaps more subjective.

I'd ask a few more questions and be more specific about the cabling you are looking to do before you drop change on Monster products. IMHO the products are overpriced in the sense that you can find equivalent (or better) products in many cases for about 1/3 of the price. Just ask the forum for some tips on good value cables for your application and you'll get a lot of suggestions. There are many "engineer" type people on the site that know how to recognize and recommend a good cable by its specs, not by the size of its marketing budget (ala Monster).

Originally posted by speedy777
Larry,
I am consider purchase a Zenith HDV420 receiver but not sure it will pickup local HD programming. Can you kind enough to check out HD reception for me? Thanks.

Address:
14907 27th Lane South
Seatac, Wa 98188.
I can't locate 27th Lane but there is a 27th Place South. That location looks very good for OTA. If you are more than 1/2 mile from 27th Place then you will have to give me another reference point to go by (or lat/long coordinates).

Originally posted by Dave Buchthal
I hired "Dan the Antenna Man" to do such a survey up to about 35 feet above ground level, and his call was that my situation is pretty dicey. He got strong signal, but it was very "spiky" along the frequency bands on any particular channel, with the spikes moving as the wind blew. In his experience, he finds that most HDTV tuners have trouble locking onto a waveform with this kind of shape. Looking at pages like http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm, it appears that the author here increases waveform uniformity by putting multiple antennae into a harness. Is that not something that people have generally tried locally?
That is why I said you need to go at least 50 feet up to have a chance. I believe Dan's assessment for 35 feet is correct. You can certainly try a large array but I think they're best suited for DX situations where the towers are 60+ miles away and higher gain is needed. I'm not sure how well an array will work for your situation and they are tricky to set up. If you don't get things just right you end up with less signal than a single antenna. I think what little signal you are getting has to be reflected and that spells trouble no matter what antenna(s) you put up.

Originally posted by quarque
I can't locate 27th Lane but there is a 27th Place South. That location looks very good for OTA. If you are more than 1/2 mile from 27th Place then you will have to give me another reference point to go by (or lat/long coordinates).


Larry,
29th lane South will be closer. Thanks.

Originally posted by speedy777
Larry,
29th lane South will be closer. Thanks.
That's only 2 blocks from where I was looking - no change in elevation or line-of-sight.

Hello Larry,

Could you check to see if decent UHF reception is possible at 106th St. /
134th Ave E. in Puyallup at zip code 98374? I'm primarily interested in the Seattle stations. There are a few trees on the horizon but nothing too bad. Thanks much !

Originally posted by rlmenzer
Hello Larry,

Could you check to see if decent UHF reception is possible at 106th St. /
134th Ave E. in Puyallup at zip code 98374? I'm primarily interested in the Seattle stations. There are a few trees on the horizon but nothing too bad. Thanks much !
You are on a nice 500 foot plateau with no poblem hills in the way. Good luck.

MyHDTV report (just got it today)

I'm at Trossachs (in 98075, Sammamish). I got old terk TV50 in inside of garage. I can get all HD stations with exception of Fox. CH9 is a bit on weak side but mostly ok. If i move the antenna around, i get FOX fine. With my current location of the antenna, i can only get abc, cbs, nbc, PBS and a few other ones (no fox). I may get CM 7777 or 7775 to see if i can get them all without moving my antenna.

Does anyone know where i can get CM7777/7775 locally??

oh, my STB is samsung 351.

Originally posted by TY4.2
MyHDTV report (just got it today)

I'm at Trossachs (in 98075, Sammamish). I got old terk TV50 in inside of garage. I can get all HD stations with exception of Fox. CH9 is a bit on weak side but mostly ok. If i move the antenna around, i get FOX fine. With my current location of the antenna, i can only get abc, cbs, nbc, PBS and a few other ones (no fox). I may get CM 7777 or 7775 to see if i can get them all without moving my antenna.

Does anyone know where i can get CM7777/7775 locally??

oh, my STB is samsung 351.

Pringle's in Everett is the only place that I know of locally that may have a CM amp.

However, I'd look at a different antenna before getting an amp. The performance of Terk antennas is generally reported to be pretty poor on this forum. There are antennas made by Channel Master, Winegard and others which should outperform the Terk and still fit in your garage. You can even try a Radio Shack UHF only antenna such as a 15-2160. If it doesn't improve your reception, Radio Shack will accept returns with no questions asked.

Just got my HD set up complete and love it.

But I am aving a heck of a time getting Fox in HD. I even got a new antenna and still no go. I have the radio shack 15-2156 antenna. I think this antenna should be more than enough to get it. I receive everything else in HD but that channel. I am located at 132nd and 109th Ave NE, zipcode is 98034. Right now I am currently pointed between QA and CH. Do I need to possible get the antenna higher (only about 4 feet above the roof) or do I need to repoint it in a different direction to get Fox in HD. I currently cannot receive Analog 13 OTA either.

Any ideas or do I need an even bigger antenna?

Thanks for the Help
Paul

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx

check here to see which direction your antenna needs to be pointed for 13. I know I have to split the two tower locations from my place in bellevue/

It looks like you may have to point your antenna further north towards the kcpq tower.

you may need a rotator (rotor)

Originally posted by syco
Just got my HD set up complete and love it.

But I am aving a heck of a time getting Fox in HD. I even got a new antenna and still no go. I have the radio shack 15-2156 antenna. I think this antenna should be more than enough to get it. I receive everything else in HD but that channel. I am located at 132nd and 109th Ave NE, zipcode is 98034. Right now I am currently pointed between QA and CH. Do I need to possible get the antenna higher (only about 4 feet above the roof) or do I need to repoint it in a different direction to get Fox in HD. I currently cannot receive Analog 13 OTA either.

Any ideas or do I need an even bigger antenna?

Thanks for the Help
Paul
FOX is about 15 degrees further north than QA from your house. So you may be pointing too far south. You have no hills in the way but perhaps trees? Your antenna is rated 100 miles for UHF so it should not be a signal level problem (perhaps 'too much' antenna in fact). You might be getting multipath reflections on FOX that are causing the problem. Try moving the antenna horizontally as well as vertically if repointing does nothing. You are only 28 miles from FOX tower so a bigger antenna is not called for. Perhaps a smaller more directional antenna.

Originally posted by TY4.2
MyHDTV report (just got it today)

I'm at Trossachs (in 98075, Sammamish). I got old terk TV50 in inside of garage. I can get all HD stations with exception of Fox. CH9 is a bit on weak side but mostly ok. If i move the antenna around, i get FOX fine. With my current location of the antenna, i can only get abc, cbs, nbc, PBS and a few other ones (no fox). I may get CM 7777 or 7775 to see if i can get them all without moving my antenna.

Does anyone know where i can get CM7777/7775 locally??

oh, my STB is samsung 351.
I doubt that an amp is going to help. As drewba said, Terk is poorly rated. I'd try a different antenna from a 'return-friendly' store.

Larry,

I live at 202 and 196th Ave NE, Redmond, 98053. I have hills to the west and the south, so I think I'm totally hosed. However, I thought it would be worth a shot...

We don't have cable on our road, so my only option is adding HD to my DirectTV package (4 channels! Yippee!). I'm grasping at straws.

- Mike

Originally posted by syco
But I am aving a heck of a time getting Fox in HD.


For the record, FOX is not scheduled to broadcast in HD until later this year.
They are only doing "enhanced" widescreen. Very different animal from HD. However getting FOX should be worthwhile now and especially after they go HD.

Tom

Originally posted by quarque
Radio Shack has them for a reasonable price. I'd wait and see what your receiver does with a straight connection to the Silver Sensor.

Larry

What a difference a tuner and a chainsaw makes! I had my Dish Network 811 installed on Sunday and all I can say is... WOW!

I get ABC, NBC, CBS, WB, UPN, PBS, FOX, and KONG all at 85-90% via my Silver Sensor antenna (I get some others, but I don't care to watch those channels). There is occasionally some pixelization that occurs, but it is pretty infrequent. I am very impressed with the Dish Network feed of HD Channels (other than ESPN-HD which is terrible). I watched the Grammy's the other night in HD via the Sensor and I was in awe of how wonderful the image looked.

I switched to and from some local HD broadcast via DISH vs the Silver Sensor and the OTA reception was at least 3 times better on my Hitachi 65T500, uncalibrated.

Question for the Video Guru's... Will I see any PQ gain from moving to a DVI-D connection between my receiver and my TV? As of now it is hooked up via Component since the 811 from Dish doesnt come with a DVI cable.

With the free HD tuner offer, is anyone else here going with Dish?

Thanks,
Bill

Originally posted by mikeki
Larry,

I live at 5900 196th Ave NE, Redmond, 98053. I have hills to the west and the south, so I think I'm totally hosed. However, I thought it would be worth a shot...

We don't have cable on our road, so my only option is adding HD to my DirectTV package (4 channels! Yippee!). I'm grasping at straws.

- Mike
Hosed!?! Count me in. - Steve Martin on SNL

You're only partially hosed. It looks as though you have a chance if you can get an antenna up high enough (> 30 feet). I would have your site evaluated by a pro that can do this (at 30+ feet) or buy all the stuff and return it if it doesn't work out. Is your house 2-3 stories? If so, a modest mast on the roof might be all you need. You could also consider a sat system - most carry locals now.

Thanks for the response. I'll check out my DirectTV options and look for a professional. HD quality is awesome. After seeing Alias in HD, I don't want to go back to regular...

I think the only HD local available through DirectTv is CBS, and that may not even be the case (since seattle's CBS station isn't an "owned and operated" CBS affiliate).

For HD locals your best bet (currently) is cable. You can get all the SD locals, however, through Dish and DirectTv.

I would jump cable immediately, however, cable isn't available on my road... :(

Mikeki,

I looked up your address on Antennaweb.org and your situation appears even better than mine and I have 50+ acres of HUGE Cedar/Pine trees between me and Seattle, not to mention other conditions.

* yellow - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 235° 11.1 25
* yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 36.1 UPN TACOMA WA 235° 11.1 36
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 243° 12.7 31
* yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA 06-04 136° 11.9 42
* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 PAX Bellevue WA 136° 11.9 32
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC Seattle WA 243° 12.9 38
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC Seattle WA 243° 12.7 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS Seattle WA 243° 13.0 39
* yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX Tacoma WA 239° 34.7 18
* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS Seattle WA 235° 11.1 41
* green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 136° 11.9 50
* red - uhf KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 238° 34.2 14
* blue - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 136° 11.9 44

By looking at their street level map, I can see you would need to point the antenna Southwest to receive the major locals, and Southeast to receive some assorted ones (PAX, DAY?, KWOG, SAH?. You mentioned you have hills there, do you by chance have your home theater setup on the second story of your house? If so, you might be ok?

I ordered the DISH Network 811/311/311 free offer and I use a Zenith Silver Sensor as my indoor antenna to pickup all of my locals. I get about 80-90% signal strength from the locals and I dont have to move my antenna at all to keep ABC, NBC, CBS, UPN and WB tuned in at 80%+.

Have you looked into this type of setup as a possibility? To test the theory of your OTA reception you could always go buy a receiver and the same antenna I mentioned above, plug it all in and check your signal strength over the air. Once you have your result, return the OTA receiver (Circuit City) and order Dish Netowrk's free deal and be set.

Bill

Originally posted by wlong
Mikeki,

I looked up your address on Antennaweb.org and your situation appears even better than mine and I have 50+ acres of HUGE Cedar/Pine trees between me and Seattle, not to mention other conditions.

Bill
Bill - I did a LOS plot for Mike. He has a sizable hill to the southwest that blocks the towers. The direct line from the transmitters through the top of that hill comes out somewhere around 50 feet above the ground at his house. Due to refraction he will get some signal below that height. Without a site evaluation it is impossible to tell exactly where he would get reliable signals. Someone is going to have to stick an antenna up and see what is received. I would not classify his situation as better than yours - definitely worse.

Larry

... an "owned and operated" CBS affiliate
After 2 months here I finally know what an, "O & O market" is.
Thank You, felthove

Larry,
I wonder what software or web sites that allow you to determine hill, building, etc.. I want learn the trick of the trade just in case I end up moving again. Thanks.

Originally posted by quarque
Bill - I did a LOS plot for Mike. He has a sizable hill to the southwest that blocks the towers. The direct line from the transmitters through the top of that hill comes out somewhere around 50 feet above the ground at his house. Due to refraction he will get some signal below that height. Without a site evaluation it is impossible to tell exactly where he would get reliable signals. Someone is going to have to stick an antenna up and see what is received. I would not classify his situation as better than yours - definitely worse.

Larry

Poor guy.

Poor guy.

LOL - Hey that's me you're talking about!

My strategy is order the HDTV package from DirectTV and try to get the $99 deal mentioned in the HDTV forum. I will try and get the name of the installer before hand. I'm going to call them up and see if they will bring out an OTA antenna and check reception while they are messing my dish (which is mounted near the peak of a two story house). This seems like an easy way to figure it out without buying and returning gear.

The downside is paying $99 and extending my DirectTV contract for 4 channels. :(

Well a straight up evaluation costs about $100 from an installer, so that does not sound too bad. Good luck and let us know what they find for OTA.

Originally posted by speedy777
Larry,
I wonder what software or web sites that allow you to determine hill, building, etc.. I want learn the trick of the trade just in case I end up moving again. Thanks.
I use a topographic program on DVD with a large detailed database of the US. It's called DeLorme TopoUSA. You plot a line from the towers to the location of interest and then use the "profile" feature to get an elevation view of the path ("side view"). Then you draw an imaginary line from the transmitter height to the location of interest. If that line intersects any hills you have a problem (well, 'they' have the problem, you have the bad news). If used properly it can be rather accurate. On marginal cases you have to be able to judge how much refraction of the signals will occur when arriving at the person's house. I have not found a hard and fast formula for this yet. It is quite dependent on the distance from the house to the first hill encountered. So for $100 you too can join the fun. I have not looked around on AVS to see if anyone else is doing this for other cities. I shudder to think what would happen if I went "national" with this. I'd have to quit my day job...

Larry

Originally posted by quarque
Well a straight up evaluation costs about $100 from an installer, so that does not sound too bad. Good luck and let us know what they find for OTA.

Can anyone recommend an evaluator in the Redmond area?

bpdp379,

The little satellite dish company on Redmond Way did an awesome job installing my satellite dish. Fixed bid, worked first time, and they were awesome. I'm hoping that is who DirectTV uses. If not, I may just call them up and see if they do this type of thing.

Don't use Home Automated Solutions in Redmond. Those guys were VERY dishonest, incompetent, and didn't take responsibility for completely botching a DirectTV installation. First time in my life someone threatened to put a lean on my house after doing almost zero useful work.

If you find someone awesome, please post.

Larry thank you very much for your input on this. I know what you do takes time and I wanted you to know it's very much appreciated.

D* Sent Ironwood or Ironweed communications to my Redmond home for the $99 HD upgrade installation. There is nothing positive I can say about them at all. They claimed there was no line of sight. Said I wouldn't even be able to pick up the 101 sat. Nevermind that I currently have D* and pick up 101 at mid 90's. Anyway, I put it up myself this weekend and pick up all three birds. Felt like the guy wanted me to offer him cash under the table to put it up the way he kept making up "issues". Really quite a piece of work! If D* tries to send these guys, I would pass without a doubt.

Thanks for the replies, but I was looking for someone to evaluate my OTA situation For HDTV.

I think it's time to have an admin rename this thread "Quarque's Seattle Changes"
You ROCK Larry.

Hd tv are no where near the potential that they have been intended for.

How long wll the digital age last.

Originally posted by weebling1
I think it's time to have an admin rename this thread "Quarque's Seattle Changes"
You ROCK Larry.
nah, I'm just one small cog in the great machinery of OTA reception - but I do appreciate the "thanks" once in a while. I know my first experiences with OTA were a little frustrating, so every little bit of information is important to the struggling masses. There is also a fair amount of misinformation out there. Sure glad AVS exists and has so many knowledgeable people contributing.

I remember years ago reading an article on how wonderful and easy OTA was going to be with digital receivers. They made it sound like a coat hanger was all you would ever need. It must have been written by someone in Kansas (no hills).

Looking at buying a house in Bellevue and I wondered if you could get details on the topography for OTA HD?

Address is:

253 165th Ave SE
Bellevue, WA 98008

Really appreciate it! Out here in Duvall I actually get OTA HD great I'd be surprised if I can't there but I believe it is in a bit of a dip...

Thanks!

Originally posted by pdampier
Looking at buying a house in Bellevue and I wondered if you could get details on the topography for OTA HD?

Address is:

253 165th Ave SE
Bellevue, WA 98008

Really appreciate it! Out here in Duvall I actually get OTA HD great I'd be surprised if I can't there but I believe it is in a bit of a dip...

Thanks!
You have a slight hill just to the west. It should be easily overcome with an antenna above 20 feet or so. Is it a 2-story house?

Larry

Thanks! No it was a one story rambler but 20' would have been ok - Unforunately they accepted another offer :(

Originally posted by syco
Just got my HD set up complete and love it.

But I am aving a heck of a time getting Fox 13-1. I even got a new antenna and still no go. I have the radio shack 15-2156 antenna. I think this antenna should be more than enough to get it. I receive everything else in HD but that channel. I am located at 132nd and 109th Ave NE, zipcode is 98034. Right now I am currently pointed between QA and CH. Do I need to possible get the antenna higher (only about 4 feet above the roof) or do I need to repoint it in a different direction to get Fox in HD. I currently cannot receive Analog 13 OTA either.

Any ideas or do I need an even bigger antenna?

Thanks for the Help
Paul

Ok relocated the Antenna and put it up on a higher mast. I am now getting Fox and all other channels (4-1,5-1,7-1,9-x, etc) Except 11-1. My signal strength is Higher 70's for Fox and 100 for most of the other ones. I get 11 Analog Perfectly. Any ideas what I need to do to get 11-1 to come in. Currently I am at 0. Everyonce in awhile I get a blip up to 36.

Thanks
Paul

Originally posted by syco
Ok relocated the Antenna and put it up on a higher mast. I am now getting Fox and all other channels (4-1,5-1,7-1,9-x, etc) Except 11-1. My signal strength is Higher 70's for Fox and 100 for most of the other ones. I get 11 Analog Perfectly. Any ideas what I need to do to get 11-1 to come in. Currently I am at 0. Everyonce in awhile I get a blip up to 36.

Thanks
Paul
Usually when you get a blip that high it means you are picking up reflected signals. About the only thing you can do is 1) repoint the antenna and 2) move it again. It may take several trial and error sessions. A more expensive route is to try different antennas, since they each have different reception patterns.

Larry

Originally posted by syco
Ok relocated the Antenna and put it up on a higher mast. I am now getting Fox and all other channels (4-1,5-1,7-1,9-x, etc) Except 11-1. My signal strength is Higher 70's for Fox and 100 for most of the other ones. I get 11 Analog Perfectly. Any ideas what I need to do to get 11-1 to come in. Currently I am at 0. Everyonce in awhile I get a blip up to 36.

Thanks
Paul

Based on your zip code, it looks like you are in Kirkland. I don't know if this is still the case, but KSTW used to have a very directional transmitter. It is broadcast from Seattle, but the antenna transmits to the south to cover their city of license, Tacoma. If they are still broadcasting that way, it could contribute to your difficulties in receiving it.

Quarque, I'd be interested in a plot for Bel-Red & 30th in Bellevue.
Thanks!
-D

Reminder -- it may not be wise to list your specific address, as lurkers could target a home that obviously has some expensive equipment inside of it. You probably shouldn't mention when you're going on vacation, either!! :D

Quarque,
Any chance I could get a plot on OTA HDTV reception from the following coordinates?

47.68459 North
122.13128 West

Many thanks for being such a help on this forum.

David

Originally posted by davidras
Quarque,
Any chance I could get a plot on OTA HDTV reception from the following coordinates?

47.68459 North
122.13128 West

Many thanks for being such a help on this forum.

David
David - looks pretty bad. Your elevation is about 40 feet and there is a 450 foot hill 1.5 miles to the WSW of you blocking the towers. I would not waste a lot of time or money on OTA. Sorry.

Larry

Originally posted by drewba
Based on your zip code, it looks like you are in Kirkland. I don't know if this is still the case, but KSTW used to have a very directional transmitter. It is broadcast from Seattle, but the antenna transmits to the south to cover their city of license, Tacoma. If they are still broadcasting that way, it could contribute to your difficulties in receiving it.
While this may be true, I am 6 miles north of their transmitter and it comes in fine with my CM 4228. Almost as much signal as the other stations.

Originally posted by darrylyu
Quarque, I'd be interested in a plot for 16754 Ne 33rd Pl, 98008 in Bellevue.
Thanks!
-D
Your LOS looks OK for towers to the west. There are some hills but none high enough to block the towers unless your antenna is very low to the ground. If you have any trouble try more elevation.

I have heard that the radiation pattern for KSTW-DT is north and south in a narrow figure eight. So folks that are due east and west seem to have the toughest time.

Quarque,

When you get a chance could you check:
47.63311 North
122.02732 West


I have my doubts but it's worth a shot.

Thanks!!

Any chance someone could check:

23300 SE Black Nugget Rd
Issaquah, WA 98029

I am able to get a decent signal with a Radio Shack bowtie antenna but it breaks up a lot when it is windy and raining (which is most of the time). I am trying to decide if a CM 4228 installed on my patio (2nd story) would eliminate this.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I have heard that the radiation pattern for KSTW-DT is north and south in a narrow figure eight. So folks that are due east and west seem to have the toughest time.

Yes, a figure 8, but not directly north/south. Points more SSE/NNW :)

If you download the FAQ (link in my sig), you can see the radiation plots.

-Lance

Originally posted by markhs
Quarque,

When you get a chance could you check:
47.63311 North
122.02732 West


I have my doubts but it's worth a shot.

Thanks!!
You have reason to doubt. A straight line from the QA transmitters passing over the hill to your west comes out 60 above your house. Unless you can put up a good tower I'd say OTA is not in your future.

Larry

Originally posted by IssaquahHD
Any chance someone could check:

23300 SE Black Nugget Rd
Issaquah, WA 98029

I am able to get a decent signal with a Radio Shack bowtie antenna but it breaks up a lot when it is windy and raining (which is most of the time). I am trying to decide if a CM 4228 installed on my patio (2nd story) would eliminate this.

Thanks.
You have a hill to the NW that is hampering your signal. Getting more altitude on your antenna will help. The 4228 will also help because of its higher gain.

Originally posted by quarque
You have reason to doubt. A straight line from the QA transmitters passing over the hill to your west comes out 60 above your house. Unless you can put up a good tower I'd say OTA is not in your future.

Larry

Ok thanks anyway - 60' is a little out of my reach :(

Appreciate you checking for me!

Sorry to be a pain as this is the second time in a few days... Looking at some other new houses and wondered if they stand a good chance of OTA reception...


NE 95TH CT Redmond, WA 98052 - Just off Avondale Road in Redmond.

Thanks!

Originally posted by markhs
Ok thanks anyway - 60' is a little out of my reach :(

Appreciate you checking for me!


Hi,
I am looking for a Channel Master 4228. Is there a local store that sell this model? Thanks.

According to others in the forum Frye's in Renton sells them, although they're not located with the rest of the antenna's in the back of the store. They're located immediately to the right when you first walk in. You may have to find someone who is interested in helping (no small task).

Hi, Guys:
Newbie here. Just got me a HT setup.
Toshiba 51HX83
Harman Kardon AVR230
Onkyo SKS510 6.1
Toshiba DVD (non progressive)

Am getting Dish Network hookup. $40.99/month for their basic package + HD package + local. The HD package includes ESPN HD, Discover HD, HDnet, HDnet Movie. Any comments?
The Dish Guy was supposed to be here last Saturday, but cancelled the appointment at the last minute. Told me that they didn't have their 8100 HD receiver. Showed up this Tuesday, a ncie guy, spent 1 hour to setup the Dish and wiring, started activation of the 8100... Wouldn't download. Blamed it on a "bad box", run out and got another one, messed around for another 2 hours... Exactly the same problem. Changed a bunch of wires and connectors. Same!!! Hooked up a SD box and worked fine. We were both pissed. Left after 9 pm. Told me "You are on my mind". No show last night. I am beginning to wonder...
What's you guys' experience with Dish Network? Any opinion regarding my choice?
Thanks in advance

Originally posted by wlong
Here is the question of the century for you... :)

Does cabling matter? If so, is high end Monster Cable worth the cost?

I had the exact question.
I got a Toshiba 51HX83 HDTV, Component video cables from a Toshiba DVD to a Harman Kardon AVR230 and then to the TV.
Finally bought:
Monster Video 3 $90 for 6' from BB
Monster Video 2 $70 for 6' from CC
Monster THX $30 from 4' CC
Philips Gold plated, $20 for 9' from Walmart
Philips Gold plated, $17 for 6' from Blockbuster (Yes, they carried it at the Brier Store)
RCA Gold plated, $17 fro 6' from Walmart

Verdict(I'm no professional, or even a videophile)
Monster video 3 6'~Monster Video 2 ~ Monster THX 4' > Philips 6' slightly> Philips 9' ~ RCA 6'
There is a slight but noticeble difference between Monster THX 4' and Philips 6'. The picture looks fuzzier, characters looks hairer on the Philips. Noise?
I finally settled for the Monster THX 4' between DVD and AVR, Monster Video 2 6' between AVR and TV (4' won't do), Monster THX 4' between Dish network 8100 to AVR (the No name Component cable from Dish Network sucks).
Hope this helps.

Originally posted by pdampier
Sorry to be a pain as this is the second time in a few days... Looking at some other new houses and wondered if they stand a good chance of OTA reception...


NE 95TH CT Redmond, WA 98052 - Just off Avondale Road in Redmond.

Thanks!
does not look good - high plateau just west of there 300 feet above the house

Anyone else notice the sudden appearance of a 7-2 subchannel on KIRO? No programming yet, that I've seen, but it's defintiely there now (10:00 PM, Thursday.)

I don't see it yet. What kind of receiver are you seeing it on?

Samsung SIRT-151

It locks on, but reports "No A/V" on 7-2. (It normally does this with 9-2 & -9-3 after 9-5 has signed on for the night.)

Originally posted by pastiche
Anyone else notice the sudden appearance of a 7-2 subchannel on KIRO? No programming yet, that I've seen, but it's defintiely there now (10:00 PM, Thursday.)

Uh-oh. I hope this isn't the first sign of impending multcasting.

Flipped back to 7-2 again during a commercial on E/R. It's got a name now, at least... "KIRO-SD"

Originally posted by pastiche
Flipped back to 7-2 again during a commercial on E/R. It's got a name now, at least... "KIRO-SD"

Yep, I see the same thing here.

-Lance

We got an offer accepted last night and we'll be moving in 30-60 days!

Hopefully I can get OTA HD here - location seems like it would be good for it...

We'll be pretty much at the cross of Bel-Red and NE 30th St in Bellevue 98008....

Thanks so much for all the help you're giving us in here quarque!

Originally posted by pdampier
We got an offer accepted last night and we'll be moving in 30-60 days!

Hopefully I can get OTA HD here - location seems like it would be good for it...

We'll be pretty much at the cross of Bel-Red and NE 30th St in Bellevue 98008....

Thanks so much for all the help you're giving us in here quarque!
Well you'll pretty much be in the clear for OTA as well. Congratulations! Don't forget when you move, you set up the HT first so you can relax while others do all the work! :D :D :D

Hi Larry.

I'm in escrow on purchasing a home in Puyallup at 12301 133rd Avenue East in zip 98374.

There are a lot of tall trees in this area and on my property and I have no idea if OTA HDTV reception is possible due to multipath I'll inevitably face.

I went to www.antennaweb.org and it said I couldn't receive ANY digital stations from this address but I'm guessing something is wrong with their database since I doubt they'd know there are trees in the area. It only shows analog stations as being available.

If you could let me know what you come up with I'd be very appreciative.

Thanks!!!
Wayne

Anyone know how to find "Dan the antenna man"? Phone number? Business name? Address? I've seen his name mentioned several times on AVS.

Finally I can help you back quarque for all the info you've given me!

Dan is at: 206-794-3993 (Least he was when he installed my system this time last year)

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Hi Larry.

I'm in escrow on purchasing a home in Puyallup at 12301 133rd Avenue East in zip 98374.

There are a lot of tall trees in this area and on my property and I have no idea if OTA HDTV reception is possible due to multipath I'll inevitably face.

I went to www.antennaweb.org and it said I couldn't receive ANY digital stations from this address but I'm guessing something is wrong with their database since I doubt they'd know there are trees in the area. It only shows analog stations as being available.

If you could let me know what you come up with I'd be very appreciative.

Thanks!!!
Wayne
Wayne - check your personal yahoo email for my response.

Originally posted by pdampier
Finally I can help you back quarque for all the info you've given me!

Dan is at: 206-794-3993 (Least he was when he installed my system this time last year)
Thanks a lot! Does he work for himself or someone else? Does he have an official business name?

Larry: it never came through (I checked my personal e-mail and my PM here), can you please re-send or just post here? Thanks!