Has KWPX indicated whether they will shut off analog 33 on Feb. 17 or if they will delay until the June date?

Will KBTC shut off analog 28 on Feb. 17, or delay? My educated guess would be that the non-commercial KBTC will shut off analog on Feb. 17 as planned.

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama said he will not sign the DTV transaction act into law on Monday until he hears what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/

Do you have a link to this? I can't find a single mention of it anywhere. One would think such a big thing would be all over the news. In fact, Obama promised to sign the legislation, and he's the one who started all this, so why would he suddenly go back on one of his promises so soon after taking office?
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to leave a comment there, but you should have been more honest about just pointing out that the government now has a place setup where people can comment about bills, though it probably won't affect anything (his Sunlight policy is more about transparency, letting people see what he's up to than getting anybody's opinion).
Quite correct, I think. I also checked to see if there is something from the White House about soliciting public opinion before signing the DTV Delay bill. There isn't. This is just the way Obama plans to operate. He's signing it regardless of public comment.

tschall, you guys still planing to test KCTS on analog ch.9 (9-4) Feb. 9th 3-5am??

tschall, you guys still planing to test KCTS on analog ch.9 (9-4) Feb. 9th 3-5am??

It is on the air right now. Everyone please note: The slide we are running is in error. Despite the fact that the slide says, "...our permanent channel assignement on FEB. 18, 2009." it is KCTS's intent to continue to operate in analog on channel 9 until the 12th of June.

Noticed the time for almost every channel was one hour later than it should have been yesterday on my CM-7000. Looks like maybe they were sending the daylight savings transition info too soon. I think they should have waited until the 9th to set the DS transition data in the PSIP. The data just says that DS starts on the 8th, but not what month. So sending it on the 8th makes some software think the transition is this month.

KCPQ didn't have wrong time because they aren't sending the DS transition data. I don't think they have an automated system, while most other stations do (though their systems appear to disagree with what most consumer equipment does). When we went to standard time back in Nov, KCPQ had the wrong time in their schedules for weeks before they fixed it.

Noticed the time for almost every channel was one hour later than it should have been yesterday on my CM-7000. Looks like maybe they were sending the daylight savings transition info too soon. I think they should have waited until the 9th to set the DS transition data in the PSIP. The data just says that DS starts on the 8th, but not what month. So sending it on the 8th makes some software think the transition is this month.

KCPQ didn't have wrong time because they aren't sending the DS transition data. I don't think they have an automated system, while most other stations do (though their systems appear to disagree with what most consumer equipment does). When we went to standard time back in Nov, KCPQ had the wrong time in their schedules for weeks before they fixed it.

I'm at home right now and don't have access to all my test equipment. However, TSReader indicates that of the stations I can receive here (4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 16 & 22) channel 13 is the only one that is not sending a number (They've got it set to zero.) in the 'DS Day of Month' field. All stations have correctly set the 'DS Status' field to zero. Most boxes can deal with this and come up with the proper time although it is technically not correct.

With all of that said, I would submit for consideration, that perhaps KCPQ needs to fix their clock (I know the guy and will call him later today.) and the issue lies with the CM-7000 not knowing enough about daylight savings time.

I've found that when I partially insert the coax from my TV into a female coupler to connect to the house coax system (w/rooftop antenna and mast amplifier) that (analog) VHF channels come in great UNTIL the shielding makes contact, at which time most of the (higher frequency) VHF channels are almost entirely lost to snow.

I've confirmed this by taking the coax out of the wall and touching the center conductor from my TV's coax to the center conductor in the wall coax. Again, a strong VHF signal, until I then also make contact between the TV-coax-shielding and wall-coax shielding, at which time the higher VHF channels drop out almost entirely due to snow. In other tests, I've found that the shielding is carrying a strong VHF signal.

My system is providing a very strong UHF signal for DTV channels, though not as strong as it probably should be down at the lower UHF end (channel 18.1, for example).

Anyone know what this indicates? I did a bit of research and thought it might have sounded like a ground loop condition, but I disconnected all the grounds in the coax system (at least those which I could find) and it didn't change. (I'm not sure I've found all of the grounding points, as I know that there is at least one splitter behind the wall somewhere, which could be independently grounded.) My next theory is that I have "antenna current" and that I need to install a current or choke balun below the antenna (10-15 coils of RG-6 around a 3" to 3.5" plastic pipe).

Or does this suggest that the shielding and the center conductor are making contact somewhere? Any ideas?

I've found that when I partially insert the coax from my TV into a female coupler to connect to the house coax system (w/rooftop antenna and mast amplifier) that (analog) VHF channels come in great UNTIL the shielding makes contact, at which time most of the (higher frequency) VHF channels are almost entirely lost to snow.

I've confirmed this by taking the coax out of the wall and touching the center conductor from my TV's coax to the center conductor in the wall coax. Again, a strong VHF signal, until I then also make contact between the TV-coax-shielding and wall-coax shielding, at which time the higher VHF channels drop out almost entirely due to snow. In other tests, I've found that the shielding is carrying a strong VHF signal.

My system is providing a very strong UHF signal for DTV channels, though not as strong as it probably should be down at the lower UHF end (channel 18.1, for example).

Anyone know what this indicates? I did a bit of research and thought it might have sounded like a ground loop condition, but I disconnected all the grounds in the coax system (at least those which I could find) and it didn't change. (I'm not sure I've found all of the grounding points, as I know that there is at least one splitter behind the wall somewhere, which could be independently grounded.)

Or does this suggest that the shielding and the center conductor are making contact somewhere? Any ideas?

Makes perfect sense. Seen it about 3 kajillion times. Two questions come immediately to mind:

1.) What kind of antenna is it? Is it, in fact, an "all band" or VHF/UHF antenna? If it UHF only this would account for the 'odd' behavior you are seeing.

2.) Is that pre-amp UHF only? If it is, then it may have some sort of roll-off filter to keep VHF out.

Your theory about the center conductor and sheild touching each other doesn't hold much water. If that were the case then I would think that nothing would work very well at all.

Makes perfect sense. Seen it about 3 kajillion times. Two questions come immediately to mind:

1.) What kind of antenna is it? Is it, in fact, an "all band" or VHF/UHF antenna? If it UHF only this would account for the 'odd' behavior you are seeing.

2.) Is that pre-amp UHF only? If it is, then it may have some sort of roll-off filter to keep VHF out.

Your theory about the center conductor and sheild touching each other doesn't hold much water. If that were the case then I would think that nothing would work very well at all.

Thank you for the reply.

I have two antennas. One is a DB8 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html). The other (at the moment) is a Channel Master Stealth Antenna (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_6593010/Channel-Master-3010.html?tp=3261) (I go back and forth between this and a Radio Shack VU-90 XR, both with similar results). Both are mounted on the roof. Both connect through equal-length segments of RG-6 to a CM7777 (in the attic), with the DB8 on the UHF input, the Stealth Antenna (or VU-90) on the VHF and with the CM7777 set to "separate" inputs (and with the FM filter out). The antennas are oriented in different directions (I'm trying to make it so I can use the system without using the rotator, which is currently attached to the DB8).

The output of the CM7777 goes down to two 1-4 splitters, which are ganged together to effectively make one 1-7 splitter. I know this splitter setup may be a big source of dB loss, though I'm unsure if it could be responsible for this weird problem of signal loss (worst on channels 9 - 13) when I connect the shield.

Having read just today that the max. turn radius on the RG-6 is 3", I'm a bit suspicious of the 1-7 splitter for a new reason, because it's all inside of a fairly compact box and at least half of the coax bends are way tighter than 3" -- more like 1".

fwiw,

9-4 had my cm7000 at about 68-70% this AM about 3.30

meanwhile 9-1 was showing a test screen at 56-60% signal strength

noticed short 'clips' of video and audio every 60 seconds or so... guessing it was the video clip looping....

Signal Path = (2edge, 28 - 29mi for all Seattle stations) -> VHF/UHF (like an old cm3016 style, mounted in my attic) -> 18db amp -> 2-way 2.5db splitter -> cm7000 -> s-video 27" crt

Hi, all. I recently bought a cheap indoor HDTV off-air antenna (RCA's ANT111) from Best Buy. The reason being, Fisher Communications, through DISH Network, is having an ongoing squabble with our local ABC affiliate in Seattle, and so we can't get this channel without an antenna. I figured since I would only use it for one channel, I'd get the cheap antenna. Well, I can't even get a semblance of a picture on that channel. And the other ones are snowy, at best. The best ones are actually above channel 13 (and even those don't look very good.) Is it just a matter of which direction I position the rabbit ears, or positioning the antenna itself to the southwest, where KOMO (the ABA affiliate) is located? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi, all. I recently bought a cheap indoor HDTV off-air antenna (RCA's ANT111) from Best Buy. The reason being, Fisher Communications, through DISH Network, is having an ongoing squabble with our local ABC affiliate in Seattle, and so we can't get this channel without an antenna. I figured since I would only use it for one channel, I'd get the cheap antenna. Well, I can't even get a semblance of a picture on that channel. And the other ones are snowy, at best. The best ones are actually above channel 13 (and even those don't look very good.) Is it just a matter of which direction I position the rabbit ears, or positioning the antenna itself to the southwest, where KOMO (the ABA affiliate) is located? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Welcome!

Head over to these web sites and see what they recommend for antennas. You enter your address and then, based on where you are located vs. the various tv towers, it will give you an idea of how powerful your antenna needs to be.

www.antennaweb.org

www.tvfool.com

Let us know the results and maybe we can come up with some suggestions.

bg

Thanks for the info. I'll start digging.

Hi, all. I recently bought a cheap indoor HDTV off-air antenna (RCA's ANT111) from Best Buy..... Well, I can't even get a semblance of a picture on that channel. And the other ones are snowy, at best. The best ones are actually above channel 13 (and even those don't look very good.) Is it just a matter of which direction I position the rabbit ears, or positioning the antenna itself to the southwest, where KOMO (the ABA affiliate) is located? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Are you using an ATSC digital tuner or an older NTSC analog tuner? KOMO's digital signal transmits on UHF 38 and re-maps to 4.1. With digital, you won't see "snow" at all, there is an abrupt "digital cliff" where the tuner simply doesn't display anything but a black screen. If you are on the edge, you'll get macroblocking, pixellation and intermittent loss of picture/sound.

It sounds like you live in a suburban area a few miles away from Queen Anne Hill. Where I live, analog KOMO/4 and KING/5 are extremely weak with any indoor rabbit ears. Analog KIRO/7 is snowy but viewable, and analogs KCTS/9, KSTW/11, and KMYQ/22 are viewable but with some ghosting. Analogs KCPQ/13, KBTC/28, KWPX/33 and KUNS/51 come in fairly well with indoor rabbit ears.

Your results with ATSC digital may vary depending on the antenna and placement. Others have had good experience using the humble RCA ANT111 for ATSC digital; the key to remember is that digital KOMO is actually UHF 38 remapping to virtual channel 4.1.

I am thinking about getting one after I get my taxes done. I would like to know how KIRO is doing with the transmission of TVGOS. Are all the channels in the area available though it?
I have a DTV Pal DVR. It works pretty good although, it does have the reboot malady described in the DTV Pal DVR forum. I blame it on data errors and interruptions in the TVGOS data stream from KIRO. My location is in Poulsbo near Keyport and have been having trouble with the KIRO signal for about two years. The signal strength is OK but have been having major multi-path issues. KOMO and KING signals are fine with no multi-path issues. Typically the Pal DVR will reboot when I'm having a bad day with KIRO signal. Overall I am pleased with the DTV Pal DVR.

Ok I didn't get the olympics tickets I wanted. So now I'm dreaming of pulling down canadian DTV coverage to make up for it.

Does anybody know what canadian call signs that will most likely be broadcasting the olympics?

My place is at 62nd and 9th in Ballard. Maybe I can rent some space on top of a telephone pole for a big antenna :-)

Blake

Ok I didn't get the olympics tickets I wanted. So now I'm dreaming of pulling down canadian DTV coverage to make up for it.

Does anybody know what canadian call signs that will most likely be broadcasting the olympics?

My place is at 62nd and 9th in Ballard. Maybe I can rent some space on top of a telephone pole for a big antenna :-)

Blake

Good luck pulling in any Canadian digital TV signals in Ballard! CBC is carried on Comcast.

Amazingly enough, TVfool shows the barest hint of a receivable signal from CIVT, 33 (32.1), reaching down to Ballard, north of 85 in the Blue Ridge area, provided you have a completely unobstructed view up the Sound to the North. You'd have to be super high and using the biggest antenna you could lay your hands on and even then the local broadcaster KWPX might give you problems.

litzdog911 has a better suggestion about cable.

Good luck pulling in any Canadian digital TV signals in Ballard! CBC is carried on Comcast.

Only problem is that CBC lost the rights to the Winter Olympics

The CTV network has the Vancouver 2010 Olympics, and their local affiliate is CIVT-DT on 33.1. The problem is that CIVT-DT is currently running with a pea-shooter DTV transmitter, and even if they ever get the green light to go to a more powerful ERP I have doubts that it would make it clearly down there to Ballard. The CIVT-TV analogue channel on 32 might make it, but with KWPX-DT apparently ready to cutover to 32 you'll be SOL.

You can see the ERP levels of BC stations here:

http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations/

I'm at home right now and don't have access to all my test equipment. However, TSReader indicates that of the stations I can receive here (4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 16 & 22) channel 13 is the only one that is not sending a number (They've got it set to zero.) in the 'DS Day of Month' field. All stations have correctly set the 'DS Status' field to zero. Most boxes can deal with this and come up with the proper time although it is technically not correct.

I think all those stations (except KCPQ) are sending the right data. (Almost right, they all forgot about the leap second at the start of this year. Only KTBW remembered!) I just think they sent it one day too soon. My CM-7000 gets the correct time now. The ATSC spec says the DS data should set "within less than one month" from the transition. It seems that not everyone thinks Feb 8th is less than one month from Mar 8th. Certainly one can see how there could be confusion. IMHO, waiting until the 9th to set the DS data would be the safe thing to do.

the issue lies with the CM-7000 not knowing enough about daylight savings time.
Search AVS forum for daylight savings and schedule time problems. It's not just the CM-7000 that has this problem. I have an Insignia converter too, same problem. Other people have reported problems with other converters, some digital TVs, and some software packages.

BTW, time data for local stations (my clock should be correct to +-1 second at least). KTBW is the only station that remember the last leap second. KOMO, KWPX, and KMYQ win the award for most accurate clock. KHVC gets the prize for least accurate clock, being off by slighly more than 12 years.

KTBW
GPS_UTC_offset = 15 (right!)
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:50:30 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:50:16 2009 PST

KCPQ
GPS_UTC_offset = 14 (wrong!)
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:52:36 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:52:20 2009 PST

KMYQ
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:58:01 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:58:03 2009 PST

KBTC
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:57:17 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:58:50 2009 PST

KONG
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:59:03 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:59:18 2009 PST

KWPX
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:00:16 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:00:18 2009 PST

KSTW
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:01:18 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:00:43 2009 PST

KOMO
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:00:58 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:01:00 2009 PST

KIRO
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:02:38 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:02:41 2009 PST

KCTS
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:03:10 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:03:14 2009 PST

KHCV
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Thu Jan 23 07:06:07 1997 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:03:58 2009 PST

KING
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:05:07 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:04:36 2009 PST

KUNS
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:52:12 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:04:51 2009 PST

Does anyone have definitive information on what each Seattle area station is planning to do .... February 17 or June?

Does anyone have definitive information on what each Seattle area station is planning to do .... February 17 or June?

This apparently has the info on station plans:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-221A5.pdf

This apparently has the info on station plans:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-221A5.pdf

Thanks! If I read this correctly it looks like all of the major stations are waiting until June :(

I think all those stations (except KCPQ) are sending the right data. (Almost right, they all forgot about the leap second at the start of this year. Only KTBW remembered!) I just think they sent it one day too soon. My CM-7000 gets the correct time now. The ATSC spec says the DS data should set "within less than one month" from the transition. It seems that not everyone thinks Feb 8th is less than one month from Mar 8th. Certainly one can see how there could be confusion. IMHO, waiting until the 9th to set the DS data would be the safe thing to do.


Search AVS forum for daylight savings and schedule time problems. It's not just the CM-7000 that has this problem. I have an Insignia converter too, same problem. Other people have reported problems with other converters, some digital TVs, and some software packages.

BTW, time data for local stations (my clock should be correct to +-1 second at least). KTBW is the only station that remember the last leap second. KOMO, KWPX, and KMYQ win the award for most accurate clock. KHVC gets the prize for least accurate clock, being off by slighly more than 12 years.

KTBW
GPS_UTC_offset = 15 (right!)
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:50:30 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:50:16 2009 PST

KCPQ
GPS_UTC_offset = 14 (wrong!)
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:52:36 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:52:20 2009 PST

KMYQ
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:58:01 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:58:03 2009 PST

KBTC
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:57:17 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:58:50 2009 PST

KONG
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:59:03 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 01:59:18 2009 PST

KWPX
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:00:16 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:00:18 2009 PST

KSTW
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:01:18 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:00:43 2009 PST

KOMO
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:00:58 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:01:00 2009 PST

KIRO
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:02:38 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:02:41 2009 PST

KCTS
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:03:10 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:03:14 2009 PST

KHCV
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6000 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 0 DS_hour = 0
As local time: Thu Jan 23 07:06:07 1997 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:03:58 2009 PST

KING
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 02:05:07 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:04:36 2009 PST

KUNS
GPS_UTC_offset = 14
daylight_savings = 0x6802 DS_status = Off DS_day_of_month = 8 DS_hour = 2
As local time: Wed Feb 11 01:52:12 2009 PST
System clock : Wed Feb 11 02:04:51 2009 PST



I'm curious about a couple of things here:

1.) What do you mean by "As local time" and "System clock."

2.) How do you arrive at the conclusion that somebody missed the leap second? (Never mind on this one. I see now....)

I have no plans to beat myself up chasing a leap second around especially when I'm synced to a highly disciplined GPS clock but I am curious how you arrived at the conclusion.

This may be an odd request, but I was hoping someone here could help me clear up an issue I am having. I do subscribe to Comcast, and recently we have noticed that the shows are being center-cut instead of letterbox on Heroes, Medium, and even Evening Magazine. According to the station Comcast has begun taking only the HD signal and there is information sent along that should downconvert to the correct aspect for the standard definition (AFD technology). My question to you is - does this cropping happen on the OTA signal too? I want to confirm where the issue lies to know where to pursue this further.

Thanks for any help!
CM

King 5 has recently started to get bad for me, including during the first half of the super bowl. Any reason for this, anyone else noticed this. I'm in Madison Park.

I'm curious about a couple of things here:
1.) What do you mean by "As local time" and "System clock."

"As local time" is the time data the station is sending converted into local time. "System clock" is my computer's clock, which I set from NIST's server just before doing this. So by comparing the two you can get an idea of how much the station's clock is off. I'm not claiming millisecond accuracy here, but it should be enough to get at least within 1 or 2 seconds. I'd say KOMO, KWPX, and KMYQ are right on, KIRO and KCTS slow by about 1-2 seconds. The rest are within about 30 seconds, except KUNS which is slow by over 12 minutes, and KHCV which thinks it's 1997.


I have no plans to beat myself up chasing a leap second around especially when I'm synced to a highly disciplined GPS clock but I am curious how you arrived at the conclusion.
The leap second is in the GPS_UTC_offset field. It should be 15 since Jan 1st, but most stations are still sending 14.

"As local time" is the time data the station is sending converted into local time. "System clock" is my computer's clock, which I set from NIST's server just before doing this. So by comparing the two you can get an idea of how much the station's clock is off. I'm not claiming millisecond accuracy here, but it should be enough to get at least within 1 or 2 seconds. I'd say KOMO, KWPX, and KMYQ are right on, KIRO and KCTS slow by about 1-2 seconds. The rest are within about 30 seconds, except KUNS which is slow by over 12 minutes, and KHCV which thinks it's 1997.


Got it. That's kind of what I thought. I think what you may be seeing is transit time through the microwaves and encoders at the various stations. In my case, if I inject PSIP and STT and the other 'ancillary' stuff before the encoders and microwaves at the correct time. It's going to be just over 4 seconds before that stuff hits the transmission system. There's your clock drift. We typically don't compensate for it because it changes everytime you change any of those pieces of equipment in that chain. It just causes to many headaches.

The leap second is in the GPS_UTC_offset field. It should be 15 since Jan 1st, but most stations are still sending 14.

I see what you are saying. I'm doing some research on where to correct it at KCTS.

This may be an odd request, but I was hoping someone here could help me clear up an issue I am having. I do subscribe to Comcast, and recently we have noticed that the shows are being center-cut instead of letterbox on Heroes, Medium, and even Evening Magazine. According to the station Comcast has begun taking only the HD signal and there is information sent along that should downconvert to the correct aspect for the standard definition (AFD technology). My question to you is - does this cropping happen on the OTA signal too? I want to confirm where the issue lies to know where to pursue this further.
This is all part of the upcoming analog shutoff. Comcast and other providers used to take two feeds from local stations - sending analog to their analog customers and digital to their HD customers. The stations handled any aspect issues prior to sending the analog signal out of the building. NBC did the letterboxing of some prime and late night shows. KING did a letterbox for Evening. And so on.

But, when analog disappears, there will only be one feed - 16:9 digital. Comcast, Dish, and DirecTV have all now switched to the DT feeds. They are doing the analog aspect ratio conversions themselves and they are all center cutting, which is the approach that the networks and local stations prefer. Letterboxing is not a good idea because it produces window boxing on analog sets when the original content is 4:3. (Window boxing is a small picture with black bars on all four sides.) There's still a tremendous amount of native 4:3 content on many channels.

AFD could be a solution because it enables dynamic switching between center cut and letterbox. But, unfortunately, the distributors don't use AFD, which KING should have explained. AFD flags sent by TV stations are simply ignored on the receiving end.

Digital OTA broadcasts don't do any aspect conversions. Stations broadcast in 16:9. The new, digital converter boxes have settings that allow the home user to decide whether to letterbox or center cut. But, the converter boxes do not process AFD flags either.

But, when analog disappears, there will only be one feed - 16:9 digital. Comcast, Dish, and DirecTV have all now switched to the DT feeds. They are doing the analog aspect ratio conversions themselves and they are all center cutting, which is the approach that the networks and local stations prefer. Letterboxing is not a good idea because it produces window boxing on analog sets when the original content is 4:3. (Window boxing is a small picture with black bars on all four sides.) There's still a tremendous amount of native 4:3 content on many channels.

I get window boxing on some programs on digital channels - is that the result of the same problem? I.e. stations broadcasting a digital 4:3 version of a letter boxed 16:9 program?

This is all part of the upcoming analog shutoff. Comcast and other providers used to take two feeds from local stations - sending analog to their analog customers and digital to their HD customers. The stations handled any aspect issues prior to sending the analog signal out of the building. NBC did the letterboxing of some prime and late night shows. KING did a letterbox for Evening. And so on.

Technically I am getting three feeds - analog, digital SD, and digital HD. I am specifically referring to the digital SD.

But, when analog disappears, there will only be one feed - 16:9 digital. Comcast, Dish, and DirecTV have all now switched to the DT feeds. They are doing the analog aspect ratio conversions themselves and they are all center cutting, which is the approach that the networks and local stations prefer. Letterboxing is not a good idea because it produces window boxing on analog sets when the original content is 4:3. (Window boxing is a small picture with black bars on all four sides.) There's still a tremendous amount of native 4:3 content on many channels.

AFD could be a solution because it enables dynamic switching between center cut and letterbox. But, unfortunately, the distributors don't use AFD, which KING should have explained. AFD flags sent by TV stations are simply ignored on the receiving end.

I may be a bit confused on who is who in your references, so here is what I have found out so far. According to KING, the AFD information is used and embedded in the HD stream from NBC, which they pass through to the cable/satellite companies. As far as the cable company receiving it, since I have started researching AFD it helps to explain why after commercial breaks shows seem to switch from a center-cut screen to letterboxed. I had seen this most often on cable networks like FX, but sometimes on The Office on NBC. I have not seen it lately, so I'll check with the cable company.

Also according to KING, they will be getting the encoding equipment to insert the AFD information for local programming like Evening Magazine.

Digital OTA broadcasts don't do any aspect conversions. Stations broadcast in 16:9. The new, digital converter boxes have settings that allow the home user to decide whether to letterbox or center cut. But, the converter boxes do not process AFD flags either.

If I understood correctly, KING is currently broadcasting in both HD and SD in the correct aspects, and not all digital converters are able to switch aspects?

Thanks for your help!

If I understood correctly, KING is currently broadcasting in both HD and SD in the correct aspects, and not all digital converters are able to switch aspects?

Thanks for your help!

KING is broadcasting its main feed in HD 16:9 (on 5-1). The SD 4:3 feed is Universal Sports (5-2). KONG is broadcasting the same thing on 16-1 (HD 16:9) and 16-2 (SD 4:3).

I get window boxing on some programs on digital channels - is that the result of the same problem? I.e. stations broadcasting a digital 4:3 version of a letter boxed 16:9 program?

I see this quite a bit on KCTS, usually with the "bug" inserted in the windowed area. Sometimes with programming which originated at BBC, there are very narrow upper and lower black areas. like the original material was something slightly wider than 4:3.

Commercials are often treated strangely as well, although recently there have been more in 16:9.

At least the OTA stations haven't gone to stretching like TNT, TBS, A&E, etc. I can usually unstretch with my HD set, but one of these (TNT, I think) leaves the center alone and stretches the sides of 4:3 material. It hurts my eyes to watch it.

On my 4:3 display I usually run 16:9 programs letterboxed, but sometimes the data (closed captions?) at the top of the picture bleeds through pretty badly.

KING is broadcasting its main feed in HD 16:9 (on 5-1). The SD 4:3 feed is Universal Sports (5-2). KONG is broadcasting the same thing on 16-1 (HD 16:9) and 16-2 (SD 4:3).

Which is waste of bandwidth, although with so little HD programming it probably doesn't matter. I sent KONG an email suggesting they run NWCN on the subchannel, for those of us who don't have cable.

Welcome to the wonderful new world of aspect ratio conversion. :)

While the analog shutoff was delayed until June, it has already happened if you receive your programming in this area from Comcast, Dish, or DirecTV. All three of those distributors have stopped using the analog local station feeds and they have already switched to using just the DT feeds.

Technically I am getting three feeds - analog, digital SD, and digital HD. I am specifically referring to the digital SD. If you are taling about off-air, you only get two feeds - analog and digital. (You may also get digital subchannels, of course.) But, with OTA, you take care of any aspecting yourself in that case.

If you are talking about Comcast, the different feeds are generated now by Comcast, not the local stations. Comcast takes a 16:9 digital feed off-air and produces the three feeds you described for its customers.

I may be a bit confused on who is who in your references...Local stations generate the programming and do the OTA transmission.

Distributors (cable, satellite, FIOS) pass the programming to their customers and, in this post analog transmission world, handle the conversion of the DT signal to analog. That includes changing aspects so that 16:9 content fits in some reasonable way on a 4:3 screen.

OTA home users bypass distributors and are responsible for any DT to analog conversion and any aspect changes. Those are the folks at whom all of the DTV conversion messages are aimed.

...so here is what I have found out so far. According to KING, the AFD information is used and embedded in the HD stream from NBC, which they pass through to the cable/satellite companies.Agreed. I think I confirmed that in my previous post. That is not the case for all networks, however.

As far as the cable company receiving it, since I have started researching AFD it helps to explain why after commercial breaks shows seem to switch from a center-cut screen to letterboxed. I had seen this most often on cable networks like FX, but sometimes on The Office on NBC. I have not seen it lately, so I'll check with the cable company.Cable channels like FX should not be part of this conversation. They are a whole different animal and have nothing to do with the demise of analog television transmission.

You have not seen letterboxing on shows like The Office recently for two reasons - NBC no longer provides a letterboxed SD feed and Comcast is now using the 16:9 HD feed and doing its own center cut for analog customers.

You seem to be suggesting that distributors (cable, satellite, FIOS) may actually be using the AFD flags that NBC sends. They are not. But, it's a simple matter to confirm. If you see an intelligent mix of letterboxed and center cut shows (not commercials) on KING 5 from Comcast or Dish or DirecTV, then that distributor is using AFD. If all shows (commercials excluded) are letterboxed or center cut, then that distributor is ignoring AFD and applying a single approach to convert 16:9 to 4:3. That's what I have observed.

There's nothing preventing distributors from using AFD, either at their head ends or via set top boxes. But, none of them to my knowledge have elected to do so.

Also according to KING, they will be getting the encoding equipment to insert the AFD information for local programming like Evening Magazine.They may very well do that. But, it won't matter unless the AFD flags are processed at the receiving end.


If I understood correctly, KING is currently broadcasting in both HD and SD in the correct aspects, and not all digital converters are able to switch aspects?Yes, KING continues to run its analog channel and will do so until June 12. But, we are talking about how KING's 16:9 digital channel is being handled by various distributors. They are now responsible for handling the aspect changes. They have all elected to take a one-size-fits-all approach, rather than use AFD data to intelligently switch between center cut and letterbox.

KCTS is a special case, btw. A post from Tim Schall of KCTS says they are continuing to produce an separate analog fiber feed for Comcast. As I understand it, KCTS downconverts the HD feed for analog, switching between center cut and letterbox based on the program content. Of course, someone at the station has to identify which programs should be treated each way. In my limited viewing, The Charlie Rose Show (a 4:3 original upconverted for HD) ended up letterboxed on SD one day - meaning it was windowboxed. The next day, it was center cut on SD. I suspect the only difference was the person doing the log for the day.

KCTS is a special case, btw. A post from Tim Schall of KCTS says they are continuing to produce an separate analog fiber feed for Comcast. As I understand it, KCTS downconverts the HD feed for analog, switching between center cut and letterbox based on the program content. Of course, someone at the station has to identify which programs should be treated each way. In my limited viewing, The Charlie Rose Show (a 4:3 original upconverted for HD) ended up letterboxed on SD one day - meaning it was windowboxed. The next day, it was center cut on SD. I suspect the only difference was the person doing the log for the day.

I've seen 16:9 programs on other channels that end up window boxed - 13.1, 16.1 and 22.1 come to mind. One programs that always seems to be window boxed is Stargate Atlantis whether on 13.1 or 22.1. Is this a program issue, or station issue or something else?

Which is waste of bandwidth, although with so little HD programming it probably doesn't matter. I sent KONG an email suggesting they run NWCN on the subchannel, for those of us who don't have cable.

+1
Would love to see NWCN on their subchannel!

I've seen 16:9 programs on other channels that end up window boxed - 13.1, 16.1 and 22.1 come to mind. One programs that always seems to be window boxed is Stargate Atlantis whether on 13.1 or 22.1. Is this a program issue, or station issue or something else?
How are you receiving these channels? OTA? And, are you seeing a windowbox on your 16:9 set as opposed to a 4:3 set? The rest of this post assumes that's the case since this is an OTA forum and you are describing digital channel designations.

If so, the most likely cause of windowboxing is program content that is upconverted from a 4:3 letterboxed source. For example, NBC used to send letterboxed versions of prime time shows for analog transmission. If you upconvert the 4:3 letterboxed source, you end up with black bars top and bottom from the original letterbox and black bars on the sides from the upconvert. That happens all the time with commercials, which are letterboxed for analog and end up windowboxed when upconverted for 16:9 digital.

How are you receiving these channels? OTA? And, are you seeing a windowbox on your 16:9 set as opposed to a 4:3 set? The rest of this post assumes that's the case since this is an OTA forum and you are describing digital channel designations.

If so, the most likely cause of windowboxing is program content that is upconverted from a 4:3 letterboxed source. For example, NBC used to send letterboxed versions of prime time shows for analog transmission. If you upconvert the 4:3 letterboxed source, you end up with black bars top and bottom from the original letterbox and black bars on the sides from the upconvert. That happens all the time with commercials, which are letterboxed for analog and end up windowboxed when upconverted for 16:9 digital.

Works the other way to. 4:3 material that is aspect ratio converted for 16:9 transmission and displayed, letterboxed on a 4:3 set. This issue has caused more than a few of us in this business to drink more than a few beers.

How are you receiving these channels? OTA? And, are you seeing a windowbox on your 16:9 set as opposed to a 4:3 set? The rest of this post assumes that's the case since this is an OTA forum and you are describing digital channel designations.

If so, the most likely cause of windowboxing is program content that is upconverted from a 4:3 letterboxed source. For example, NBC used to send letterboxed versions of prime time shows for analog transmission. If you upconvert the 4:3 letterboxed source, you end up with black bars top and bottom from the original letterbox and black bars on the sides from the upconvert. That happens all the time with commercials, which are letterboxed for analog and end up windowboxed when upconverted for 16:9 digital.

Your assumptions are correct. I'm talking about 6:9 programming that is received OTA and displayed on a 16:9 HDTV at 720p. I;m assuming that the originalprogramming is in 16:9 digital and thru some processing ends up broadcast as window boxed on a 16:9 displayed. So it sounds like the stations are taking 16:9 digital programming and converting it to 4:3 letterbox to broadcast in analog and also digital. My naive assumption is that they could just digitally broadcast the original 16:9 programming instead of the converted programming. Is there some reason why this couldn't be done?

Your assumptions are correct. I'm talking about 6:9 programming that is received OTA and displayed on a 16:9 HDTV at 720p. I;m assuming that the originalprogramming is in 16:9 digital and thru some processing ends up broadcast as window boxed on a 16:9 displayed. So it sounds like the stations are taking 16:9 digital programming and converting it to 4:3 letterbox to broadcast in analog and also digital. My naive assumption is that they could just digitally broadcast the original 16:9 programming instead of the converted programming. Is there some reason why this couldn't be done?

Sure we could. Assuming the program was available in wide screen. If we (KCTS) get the program in native 16:9 we use it on the HD station and letterbox and down convert it for analog broadcast. The problem arises when we dig into our very deep library and pull out something from the past or when PBS sends us something that, for whatever reason, they never acquried in 16:9.

I'm assuming that the original programming is in 16:9 digital and thru some processing ends up broadcast as window boxed on a 16:9 displayed. So it sounds like the stations are taking 16:9 digital programming and converting it to 4:3 letterbox to broadcast in analog and also digital. My naive assumption is that they could just digitally broadcast the original 16:9 programming instead of the converted programming. Is there some reason why this couldn't be done?If a program is produced and recorded in 16:9 with titles inside the 4:3 safe area, then it airs that way on DT and looks right on 4:3 when center cut. The action outside of 4:3 safe is cropped, of course, but that's all that's lost.

When the original content is 4:3, then the station needs to do an upconvert for the DT output. If the playback source is a normal, full screen 4:3 program, then the upconvert merely adds black curtains on the sides, as you've seen on many, many shows over the last several years on local digital channels. When the upconverted 4:3 material is center cut for analog, you end up with a full screen picture that matches the original 4:3 recording.

But, sometimes a 16:9 original will be recorded in 4:3 letterbox. If that source is then upconverted, you get a windowbox on DT. It happens all of the time with commercials, less often with shows. But, that's the usual cause of windowboxing on a DT channel.

If a program is produced and recorded in 16:9 with titles inside the 4:3 safe area, then it airs that way on DT and looks right on 4:3 when center cut. The action outside of 4:3 safe is cropped, of course, but that's all that's lost.

When the original content is 4:3, then the station needs to do an upconvert for the DT output. If the playback source is a normal, full screen 4:3 program, then the upconvert merely adds black curtains on the sides, as you've seen on many, many shows over the last several years on local digital channels. When the upconverted 4:3 material is center cut for analog, you end up with a full screen picture that matches the original 4:3 recording.

But, sometimes a 16:9 original will be recorded in 4:3 letterbox. If that source is then upconverted, you get a windowbox on DT. It happens all of the time with commercials, less often with shows. But, that's the usual cause of windowboxing on a DT channel.

OK I think I understand that a program is window boxed because the source programming is 16:9 letter boxed in 4:3 and not because someone forgot to throw a switch at the station.

Works the other way to. 4:3 material that is aspect ratio converted for 16:9 transmission and displayed, letterboxed on a 4:3 set. This issue has caused more than a few of us in this business to drink more than a few beers.Sorry, Tim, but you lost me there. If we start with a 4:3 full screen source and upconvert it for 16:9, it will end up with curtains on the sides to fill the extra 16:9 space. How (or, perhaps, why) would that be letterboxed when downconverted for the analog output? If someone is making a decision about whether to letterbox or centercut, they need to make the right decision. Original 16:9 content should be letterboxed while upconverted 4:3 content should be center cut.

I have a reception question:

What are my chances of getting KCPQ, KWPX, KVOS, and KBTC from my location?

Cross Streets are 150th and 25th in Shoreline. Would a DB4 mounted inside be enough to pick up these stations, or would it need to be roof mounted with an amplifier?

Thanks in Advance!

Which is waste of bandwidth, although with so little HD programming it probably doesn't matter. I sent KONG an email suggesting they run NWCN on the subchannel, for those of us who don't have cable.

I have wanted for them to do that for a long time.

Sure we could. Assuming the program was available in wide screen. If we (KCTS) get the program in native 16:9 we use it on the HD station and letterbox and down convert it for analog broadcast. The problem arises when we dig into our very deep library and pull out something from the past or when PBS sends us something that, for whatever reason, they never acquried in 16:9.

I noticed that "Doc Martin" was windowboxed this evening. That is a pretty recent program. Are you getting it as 4:3 letterboxed? Could it be zoomed out?

I have a reception question:

What are my chances of getting KCPQ, KWPX, KVOS, and KBTC from my location?

Cross Streets are 150th and 25th in Shoreline. Would a DB4 mounted inside be enough to pick up these stations, or would it need to be roof mounted with an amplifier?

Thanks in Advance!

BurlesonBlue
North Seattle or near Burien?
Dan

BurlesonBlue
North Seattle or near Burien?
Dan
I am not Blue but Shoreline means North Seattle.

Sorry, Tim, but you lost me there. If we start with a 4:3 full screen source and upconvert it for 16:9, it will end up with curtains on the sides to fill the extra 16:9 space. How (or, perhaps, why) would that be letterboxed when downconverted for the analog output? If someone is making a decision about whether to letterbox or centercut, they need to make the right decision. Original 16:9 content should be letterboxed while upconverted 4:3 content should be center cut.

Yes, but if, for reasons that also escape me, you take that 16:9 picture with 4:3 content and letterbox it for display on a 4:3 set you'll end up with window boxes or, what we call, a postage stamp. We try our best to center cut that material for display on our various 4:3 services but sometimes we miss one.

i am skimming through the 240+ pages of local posts here.
i see alot of "that antenna is no good (esp Terk).

Anyone have thoughts on which is best?

I have located the channels i will be aiming for to the Southwest and Southeast

I am thinking about AntennasDirect DB2

This would be placed on my deck during viewing times.
Unfortunately i live on the Redmond side of Rosehill (with Seattle on the other side).

Any suggestions would be great!

i am skimming through the 240+ pages of local posts here.
i see alot of "that antenna is no good (esp Terk).

Anyone have thoughts on which is best?

I have located the channels i will be aiming for to the Southwest and Southeast

I am thinking about AntennasDirect DB2

This would be placed on my deck during viewing times.
Unfortunately i live on the Redmond side of Rosehill (with Seattle on the other side).

Any suggestions would be great!

Assuming that moving is out of the question and you're looking for something smaller, I've had good luck with the Silver Sensor and DB2 myself.

Thanks for the quick reply.
I did a search and see a Philips PHDTV1 silver sensor.
Between that and the DB2 which would you go with?

Thanks for the quick reply.
I did a search and see a Philips PHDTV1 silver sensor.
Between that and the DB2 which would you go with?

They're both fine antennas. Given the choice, I'd use the Silver Sensor but only because I have more experience with it and a really nice stainless steel weighted base my buddy made for it because we got tired of it tipping over all the time.

BurlesonBlue
North Seattle or near Burien?
Dan

North Seattle

We try our best to center cut that material for display on our various 4:3 services but sometimes we miss one.

Is there a reason why that doesn't just happen automatically?

Is there a reason why that doesn't just happen automatically?Automatically? How would that work?

KCTS does a downconvert of its digital channel output to produce a 4:3 analog feed. Everything on KCTS-DT is 16:9. The actual video content may make full use of the 16:9 screen space, have side curtains, be letterboxed, or it could even be postage stamped. While those all look different, the video formats are identical as far as the downconverter is concerned. How would it know whether to letterbox or center cut unless a person makes that decision?

In this new, digital-only world, cable and satellite providers are making the downconvert automatic by simply center cutting everything. KCTS is trying to provide a more intelligent output for its analog feed to Comcast with decisions about whether to center cut or letterbox based on the aspect ratio of the DT program content.

Automatically? How would that work?

KCTS does a downconvert of its digital channel output to produce a 4:3 analog feed. Everything on KCTS-DT is 16:9. The actual video content may make full use of the 16:9 screen space, have side curtains, be letterboxed, or it could even be postage stamped. While those all look different, the video formats are identical as far as the downconverter is concerned. How would it know whether to letterbox or center cut unless a person makes that decision?

In this new, digital-only world, cable and satellite providers are making the downconvert automatic by simply center cutting everything. KCTS is trying to provide a more intelligent output for its analog feed to Comcast with decisions about whether to center cut or letterbox based on the aspect ratio of the DT program content.

BIslander: I sincerely appreciate the kind words about our center-cut/letterbox decisions.

>MOST< of the time we know ahead if a piece of material will be handed to us center cut, letterboxed, upside down or otherwise. We program those situations into the logs that are fed to our automation system. A high percentage of the time, the automation system gets it right. If it flubs or if the material isn't what we were told it was to be we run into problems. Our operators have been known to override the automation system to make things right.

Also, for what it's worth, the 'analog' feed to Comcast is identical to the feed we send to our analog transmitter.

Also, for what it's worth, the 'analog' feed to Comcast is identical to the feed we send to our analog transmitter.
Which leads me to ask why the KCTS HD bug is 1/4 of the way in from the righthand frame? Obviously, it's not the same bug used on the SD or analog feed, right? On the HD channel, it keeps getting in the way of subtitles or lower-third text, when it would be out of the way if you placed it where KCPQ places their bug on their HD channel.

BIslander: I sincerely appreciate the kind words about our center-cut/letterbox decisions.

>MOST< of the time we know ahead if a piece of material will be handed to us center cut, letterboxed, upside down or otherwise. We program those situations into the logs that are fed to our automation system. A high percentage of the time, the automation system gets it right. If it flubs or if the material isn't what we were told it was to be we run into problems. Our operators have been known to override the automation system to make things right.

Also, for what it's worth, the 'analog' feed to Comcast is identical to the feed we send to our analog transmitter.

Does this mean that if you know that the source is 16:9 letter boxed in 4:3 that the automation system can crop, expand and upconvert the programming for 16:9 HD broadcast?

Which leads me to ask why the KCTS HD bug is 1/4 of the way in from the righthand frame? Obviously, it's not the same bug used on the SD or analog feed, right? On the HD channel, it keeps getting in the way of subtitles or lower-third text, when it would be out of the way if you placed it where KCPQ places their bug on their HD channel.

A lot of the bugs are now that way so they will still be visible if the picture is center-cut to convert from 16:9 to 4:3. A translucent bug would probably help when there is text in that area.

Speaking of bugs. It bugs me that the KCTS 9 bug is on 24/7, in your face, all the time. At least when we could get PBS on Dish, it was only the little PBS logo. But that is long gone.

How about showing the bug only as often as the FCC requires? Do I perceive a little insecurity here? Am I alone on this? :(

Does this mean that if you know that the source is 16:9 letter boxed in 4:3 that the automation system can crop, expand and upconvert the programming for 16:9 HD broadcast?
This discussion has been about how KCTS downconverts its DT output to produce a 4:3 feed for Comcast and the remaining few months of analog transmission. Upconverting for the DT feed is a separate process. Most stations simply add side curtains to 4:3 source material. Other approaches involve zooming or stretching, which would not look very good in most cases and might also move graphics outside of the 4:3 safe area needed for analog center cuts. I haven't seen anything on air to suggest that KCTS is doing anything other than a standard upconvert.

Which leads me to ask why the KCTS HD bug is 1/4 of the way in from the righthand frame? Obviously, it's not the same bug used on the SD or analog feed, right? On the HD channel, it keeps getting in the way of subtitles or lower-third text, when it would be out of the way if you placed it where KCPQ places their bug on their HD channel.I'll take a look at the Q13 bug on DT, but as far as I know, all broadcast stations have moved their DT bugs so that they'll be in the 4:3 safe area. "KCTS9-HD" is wider than most bugs, which may account for the perception that it's further left than the others.

This discussion has been about how KCTS downconverts its DT output to produce a 4:3 feed for Comcast and the remaining few months of analog transmission. Upconverting for the DT feed is a separate process. Most stations simply add side curtains to 4:3 source material. Other approaches involve zooming or stretching, which would not look very good in most cases and might also move graphics outside of the 4:3 safe area needed for analog center cuts. I haven't seen anything on air to suggest that KCTS is doing anything other than a standard upconvert.

My question is following the line of the question I asked a couple of days ago about why window boxing (postage stamping?) of 16:9 content occurs on OTA HD channels. The response I got was that the source available was 19:9 letter boxed in 4:3 and just broadcast with added side bars.

My HDTV provides a zoom function that effectively crops and expands the picture to fill the display. The mention of an automation system to modify broadcast signal based on knowledge of the source content made me wonder if the automation system could also do the zooming before broadcast for HD digital in these cases. My thinking is that maybe the equipment for zooming at the station would be better than the capabilities of my HDTV. I'm not sure what graphics you're talking about but my assumption would be that those concerns should have been taken care of in the original 16:9 material.

Speaking of bugs. It bugs me that the KCTS 9 bug is on 24/7, in your face, all the time. At least when we could get PBS on Dish, it was only the little PBS logo. But that is long gone.

How about showing the bug only as often as the FCC requires? Do I perceive a little insecurity here? Am I alone on this? :(

You are not alone. Many people find the "bugs", translucent or not, to be very annoying. I would like to see them gone. But since that will never happen, on the "30's" would be fine for the requisite 10 seconds or whatever it is. Anyone know exactly what the FCC requires for bugs?

My HDTV provides a zoom function that effectively crops and expands the picture to fill the display. The mention of an automation system to modify broadcast signal based on knowledge of the source content made me wonder if the automation system could also do the zooming before broadcast for HD digital in these cases.Yes, it could. As with the downconvert processing under discussion, a person would need to determine which type of upconverting should be used for each 4:3 program source. Then, automation could trigger whatever upconversion was specified for each program.

My thinking is that maybe the equipment for zooming at the station would be better than the capabilities of my HDTV.Unlikely. You are really only talking about native 16:9 content that was delivered to the broadcaster letterboxed on 4:3. There are lots of commercials delivered that way, but not many shows. So, it doesn't seem like the need for zooming instead of curtaining would come up all that often. (And, of course, some people would object to zooming the picture, reducing its clarity.)

I'm not sure what graphics you're talking about but my assumption would be that those concerns should have been taken care of in the original 16:9 material.Probably not, actually. Graphics are a main reason to letterbox 16:9 content for presentation in 4:3. If the graphics on the 16:9 original are outside of 4:3 safe, zooming the 4:3 version prior to broadcast will move them back outside of 4:3 safe. When the zoomed DT signal is center cut for analog, the graphics will be cut off. You might as well just air the 16:9 original.

I was watching channel 13, KCPQ HD OTA, and all of a sudden my Samsung plasma let out a wicked buzzing noise and rebooted. It powered up and went through the same cycle about three times before I finally unplugged the power since the remote was useless, and I could not change sources/channels manually on the unit. After plugging back in it did the same thing. I unplugged the power again, and disconnected the antenna. Powered up, and was cool, switched the source to KCPQ HD on Comcast (basic cable hooked directly to input) and all was well.

This happened a couple years ago with KOMO 4. The problem ended up being glitches in the transmitted guide data which the Samsung tuners evidently are sensitive to.

I don't receive any guide data on Comcast, so this would be my theory on why I didn't have any problems after changing sources.

The problem started around 9:05 PM tonight. Anyone else see anything weird with KCPQ OTA?

I have a reception question:

What are my chances of getting KCPQ, KWPX, KVOS, and KBTC from my location?

Cross Streets are 150th and 25th in Shoreline. Would a DB4 mounted inside be enough to pick up these stations, or would it need to be roof mounted with an amplifier?

Thanks in Advance!

Well, I decided to go very cheap and get the $10 Terk TV1 Rabbit Ears. I'll start cheap and move upwards in price and quality, but I'll let you know how it goes!

A lot of the bugs are now that way so they will still be visible if the picture is center-cut to convert from 16:9 to 4:3. A translucent bug would probably help when there is text in that area.
Yes, I know that other bugs are there. I'm asking about the KCTS bug, which says KCTS HD and isn't the same bug used in their analog and SD feeds.

I'll take a look at the Q13 bug on DT, but as far as I know, all broadcast stations have moved their DT bugs so that they'll be in the 4:3 safe area. "KCTS9-HD" is wider than most bugs, which may account for the perception that it's further left than the others.
The KCTS HD bug is in the SD safe area, no further left than any other bugs. Yeah, take a look at 13's bug. I know their engineer and give him credit for making it much less intrusive. And, NOT in the safe area. Meanwhile, their SD/Analog feed uses a different bug. Far as I can tell, they are the only stations here with two feeds, one for SD & analog and one for HD.

Which leads me to ask why the KCTS HD bug is 1/4 of the way in from the righthand frame? Obviously, it's not the same bug used on the SD or analog feed, right? On the HD channel, it keeps getting in the way of subtitles or lower-third text, when it would be out of the way if you placed it where KCPQ places their bug on their HD channel.

The bug is protected for 4:3 center cut with we do not do. However, some cable companies and both major satellite providers centercut our digital feed for their 'analog' or SD services. If we positioned the bug where KCPQ does it would get cut of about half way through the S.

Speaking of bugs. It bugs me that the KCTS 9 bug is on 24/7, in your face, all the time. At least when we could get PBS on Dish, it was only the little PBS logo. But that is long gone.

How about showing the bug only as often as the FCC requires? Do I perceive a little insecurity here? Am I alone on this? :(

None of the bugs are on 24/7. They are keyed in and out during program breaks by the automation system. It's a branding consderation that is made by people a lot higher up the food chain than I am.

FWIW: The FCC does not require 'bugs' in any way shape or form.

My question is following the line of the question I asked a couple of days ago about why window boxing (postage stamping?) of 16:9 content occurs on OTA HD channels. The response I got was that the source available was 19:9 letter boxed in 4:3 and just broadcast with added side bars.

My HDTV provides a zoom function that effectively crops and expands the picture to fill the display. The mention of an automation system to modify broadcast signal based on knowledge of the source content made me wonder if the automation system could also do the zooming before broadcast for HD digital in these cases. My thinking is that maybe the equipment for zooming at the station would be better than the capabilities of my HDTV. I'm not sure what graphics you're talking about but my assumption would be that those concerns should have been taken care of in the original 16:9 material.

We could certainly install equipment that would modify those sorts of videos in one way or another but even the very expensive converters that we use don't do a very good job of 'zooming' letter boxed content to fill a 16:9 screen. But to answer your question directly, yes, a second aspect ratio converter could certainly be installed that the automation system could control. However, it would be prohibitively expensive for something that would produce, at best, questionable results.

You are not alone. Many people find the "bugs", translucent or not, to be very annoying. I would like to see them gone. But since that will never happen, on the "30's" would be fine for the requisite 10 seconds or whatever it is. Anyone know exactly what the FCC requires for bugs?

They don't require them.

All that's required is call/community of license/channel, near the top of the hour, and that may be delivered visually or aurally. (If the station shuts down at night, there must also be an ID at shutdown, and again at startup the next morning.)

It started as a branding effort (when Fox first introduced it, they were a minor player, and not often on the "expected" channel number), and has since become an intellectual property watermark, as well (many clips on YouTube have the bug of the source in the corner.)

KBTC didn't bug their shows until the early part of this decade. On the rare occasion I watch an old movie on KHCV, they're still bug-free.

[And this post is now totally moot because tschall wrote a much more concise and authoritative answer WHILE I was typing this! :)]

The KCTS HD bug is in the SD safe area, no further left than any other bugs. Yeah, take a look at 13's bug. I know their engineer and give him credit for making it much less intrusive. And, NOT in the safe area. Meanwhile, their SD/Analog feed uses a different bug. Far as I can tell, they are the only stations here with two feeds, one for SD & analog and one for HD.How does that work for distributors that center cut the DT signal and how will it work for DT converter boxes set to center cut when the analog transmitter goes dark in June? I think Comcast and satellite account for upwards of 80% of TV households in this market.

I haven't seen a Q13 bug yet. But, the network show Fox News Sunday has a bug with a gap between words - FOX HD. FOX is in 4:3 safe and HD is in the 16:9 area, so it works for the HD feed and for the SD downconvert center cut.

I was comparing KCPQ HD and SD on Directv (I can't receive either OTA) and the bug is different (further left on SD). Supposedly Directv is picking up OTA digital feeds for all of the locals, but this appears to be an exception.

I was comparing KCPQ HD and SD on Directv (I can't receive either OTA) and the bug is different (further left on SD). Supposedly Directv is picking up OTA digital feeds for all of the locals, but this appears to be an exception.I checked my Comcast DVR and saw the HD bug position outside of 4:3 safe. I'll need to wait for a prime HD show to see whether the SD version is bug free or has a bug in the 4:3 area. Perhaps KCPQ is providing a separate 4:3 fiber feed to DirecTV and other distributors and perhaps they plan to continue with that after the analog shutdown. That would leave OTA (and smaller cable companies) bug-free on shows with the HD bug, but I can't imagine viewers would complain. :)

Art - does your engineer friend at KCPQ have information about how programs are distributed now and the plans for distribution after June 12?

EDIT: The "Road to Daytona" network feed is bug free in HD on Comcast 113. But, the SD version on Comcast 13 has a Q13 Fox bug. That's what happened with Seahawks football games last fall, too. So, Comcast is clearly not downconverting KCPQ-DT to produce the analog output. I wonder why KCPQ isn't consistent about bugging the HD channel.

Automatically? How would that work?

KCTS does a downconvert of its digital channel output to produce a 4:3 analog feed. Everything on KCTS-DT is 16:9. The actual video content may make full use of the 16:9 screen space, have side curtains, be letterboxed, or it could even be postage stamped. While those all look different, the video formats are identical as far as the downconverter is concerned. How would it know whether to letterbox or center cut unless a person makes that decision?

There are many things that are hard for computers, but there are also things that are quite easy. Detection of pillarbox/letterbox/windowbox formatting is one of the things that falls cleanly into the "Easy" category. :)

Once that part is figured out, the appropriate conversion can be determined. For example, if a video source is identified as being letterboxed, we can assume that the incoming video is 4:3, but the true source material for it was 16:9. Likewise, if the video is detected as being pillarboxed, we can assume that the incoming video is 16:9 but the source content for it was 4:3.

If a source video is identified as being windowboxed, the task is much harder, but there is still some hope using a bit of fuzzy logic.

As a worst case, we can at least flag it as windowboxed so that the borders can all be removed. The picture has a 50/50 chance of be "wrong", but at least it would fill the full screen for the viewers.
For better results, some checks could be made of the incoming video resolution. If the incoming windowboxed source is HD, it is likely that the previous video one conversion back was 4:3 SD, and the original source video one more step back was 16:9.
Likewise, if the incoming windowboxed source is SD, it can be assumed that the previous video one conversion back was 16:9 HD, and that the original source video one more step back was 4:3.
Lastly, it is often the case that a windowboxed video shows that the two operations were performed with slightly different black levels or black colors used for the filler portions. Being able to see this would allow the system to determine which borders were associated with which operation, and knowing the order of operations would also let you undo the steps in reverse to get back to the original source while at the same time revealing its aspect ratio.


BIslander: I sincerely appreciate the kind words about our center-cut/letterbox decisions.

>MOST< of the time we know ahead if a piece of material will be handed to us center cut, letterboxed, upside down or otherwise. We program those situations into the logs that are fed to our automation system. A high percentage of the time, the automation system gets it right. If it flubs or if the material isn't what we were told it was to be we run into problems. Our operators have been known to override the automation system to make things right.


We could certainly install equipment that would modify those sorts of videos in one way or another but even the very expensive converters that we use don't do a very good job of 'zooming' letter boxed content to fill a 16:9 screen. But to answer your question directly, yes, a second aspect ratio converter could certainly be installed that the automation system could control. However, it would be prohibitively expensive for something that would produce, at best, questionable results.

tschall- Based on your two quotes above, am I correct that to fix the problem, it wouldn't necessarily require extra conversion equipment (quote #2), but instead just a device to apply corrections to the logs (quote #1) that are fed into the existing conversion equipment?

Ironically, while searching for a photo of "windowboxing", I found the wikipedia page... which has a photo captioned "Severe Windowbox", showing none other than KCTS. :( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Severe_Windowbox.jpg

None of the bugs are on 24/7. They are keyed in and out during program breaks by the automation system. It's a branding consderation that is made by people a lot higher up the food chain than I am.

FWIW: The FCC does not require 'bugs' in any way shape or form.

It would be nice if the bug was less obtrusive - more like the CBS bug that is small and transparent. There are some programs on KCTS where the bug obscures the graphics on the screen e.g. names of guests on Bill Moyers.

The bug is protected for 4:3 center cut with we do not do. However, some cable companies and both major satellite providers centercut our digital feed for their 'analog' or SD services. If we positioned the bug where KCPQ does it would get cut of about half way through the S.
Thanks... I really was wondering. So, some people see an analog or SD feed with the HD bug???

I
Art - does your engineer friend at KCPQ have information about how programs are distributed now and the plans for distribution after June 12?
I haven't talked to him about it, but he must know whats going on. He's been with Tribune for years. He did tell me their plan was to continue to distribute two feeds: one center cut SD and one HD. I sure hate seeing that bug on KCTS when it obscures text, like it did with English translations used on a recent Nova or Frontline. To me, it makes the station and network look stupid that they can't agree on where stations can put bugs, then keep that area clear of other text.

Thanks... I really was wondering. So, some people see an analog or SD feed with the HD bug???

Yup. Exactly. I myself see it on DirecTV at home.

It would be nice if the bug was less obtrusive - more like the CBS bug that is small and transparent. There are some programs on KCTS where the bug obscures the graphics on the screen e.g. names of guests on Bill Moyers.

I will pass your comments along to our programming folks. We are also working with our local graphics folks to establish 'safe' areas that they should keep clear. While we can't control what comes from PBS perhaps we need to make sure our 'own porch is clean' before we go griping to them.

Set-up possibilities seem endless for combinations of DTV/STBs/DVRs/etc. Some of us are not all that technologically advanced and need some practical (local) advice.

Right now I have an analog TV playing through a STB (bought with a coupon). OTA digital reception in Kirkland is very good, I have no cable/dish. My older VCR/DVD player has only a NTSC tuner and is of limited use. I am considering buying a Toshiba DR 560 to record a very few programs during the week.

I've understand that with only a single ATSC tuner I wouldn't be able to watch and record on different channels. Is there some way to hook up BOTH my STB and a ATSC DVR recorder that would allow recording and viewing different channels at the same time?

Thanks in advance for your insights, JiminKirkland

I will pass your comments along to our programming folks. We are also working with our local graphics folks to establish 'safe' areas that they should keep clear. While we can't control what comes from PBS perhaps we need to make sure our 'own porch is clean' before we go griping to them.
Seems to me that, since virtually all stations add their own bug, that PBS might want to negotiate with member stations on a safe place or two and work accordingly. But, I know from my own TV days that this kind of issue comes up with local news. All news photographers know what the station shows in the lower third, but then, all too often, they go and compose shots completely ignoring the lower third graphics, leaving some shots to look awful, forcing the director, if he or she is paying attention, to lose the lower third graphics for that shot.

Set-up possibilities seem endless for combinations of DTV/STBs/DVRs/etc. Some of us are not all that technologically advanced and need some practical (local) advice.

Right now I have an analog TV playing through a STB (bought with a coupon). OTA digital reception in Kirkland is very good, I have no cable/dish. My older VCR/DVD player has only a NTSC tuner and is of limited use. I am considering buying a Toshiba DR 560 to record a very few programs during the week.

I've understand that with only a single ATSC tuner I wouldn't be able to watch and record on different channels. Is there some way to hook up BOTH my STB and a ATSC DVR recorder that would allow recording and viewing different channels at the same time?

Thanks in advance for your insights, JiminKirkland

Sure. Just feed both of them with a splitter on the line from your antenna. Run the recorder into the component/S-video/composite (in order of preference) inputs of your TV. Obviously the only way to view both at the same time is to use PIP.

I checked my Comcast DVR and saw the HD bug position outside of 4:3 safe.

EDIT: The "Road to Daytona" network feed is bug free in HD on Comcast 113. But, the SD version on Comcast 13 has a Q13 Fox bug. So, Comcast is clearly not downconverting KCPQ-DT to produce the analog output.
Well, the Morning Show with Mike & Juliet on Comcast 113 is an upconverted 4:3 source with side curtains. Surprisingly, it has the same Q13 Fox bug as the SD channel. That would suggest KCPQ is upconverting the analog program stream, complete with the bug, for the DT channel. I suppose they could be inserting the SD bug separately on the HD channel. But, why would they do that?

I've understand that with only a single ATSC tuner I wouldn't be able to watch and record on different channels. Is there some way to hook up BOTH my STB and a ATSC DVR recorder that would allow recording and viewing different channels at the same time?

You may also be able to pass through the signal from one device to to the other, eliminating the need for a splitter.

I live in Fremont (close to Wallingford, just a block east of Aurora/99 and two blocks south of 45th) and attached is my tvfool.com signal readout. I have a Zenith DTT901 attached to an RCA ANT130B UHF loop/VHF rabbit-ears setup, and my apartment is approximately 25 feet off the ground.

my question is, I'm wondering why the tvfool summary shows channel 45 as channel 44?

45.1 = AM ONE; seems to be a lot of infomercials
45.2 = Azteca (http://www.tv45.tv/); Latino programming
45.3 = AAT TV (http://www.aattv.com/); Mandarin, Cantonese and Korean programming
45.4 = AMG TV; low-rent Spike TV ripoff?


also, has anyone else lost ION as of today? i'm guessing it's temporary, whatever it is. i don't currently have my remote (roommate took it by accident when she moved out), so i can't do a channel rescan to see what else may be new.

I live in Fremont (close to Wallingford, just a block east of Aurora/99 and two blocks south of 45th) and attached is my tvfool.com signal readout. I have a Zenith DTT901 attached to an RCA ANT130B UHF loop/VHF rabbit-ears setup, and my apartment is approximately 25 feet off the ground.

my question is, I'm wondering why the tvfool summary shows channel 45 as channel 44?

45.1 = AM ONE; seems to be a lot of infomercials
45.2 = Azteca (http://www.tv45.tv/); Latino programming
45.3 = AAT TV (http://www.aattv.com/); Mandarin, Cantonese and Korean programming
45.4 = AMG TV; low-rent Spike TV ripoff?


also, has anyone else lost ION as of today? i'm guessing it's temporary, whatever it is. i don't currently have my remote (roommate took it by accident when she moved out), so i can't do a channel rescan to see what else may be new.

44 is the physical channel for the virtual channels 45.x. Check the entry for 44 in the menu->setup->manual tuning display.

ION shut off its analog signal on 33 and moved its digital signal to 33. You have to do an update scan on your Zenith to get the ION channels or fix it in manual tuning.

Automatically? How would that work?
KCTS does a downconvert of its digital channel output to produce a 4:3 analog feed. Everything on KCTS-DT is 16:9. The actual video content may make full use of the 16:9 screen space, have side curtains, be letterboxed, or it could even be postage stamped. While those all look different, the video formats are identical as far as the downconverter is concerned. How would it know whether to letterbox or center cut unless a person makes that decision?


Easy, look for the black borders. Figuring out what aspect ratio something is and cutting out the borders isn't exactly high tech image processing.

Easy, look for the black borders. Figuring out what aspect ratio something is and cutting out the borders isn't exactly high tech image processing.That seems easy enough. But, to the best of my knowledge, there's no such application in the real world. Since you say the software itself is easy, I guess no one has figured out a business model that makes sense.

EDIT: Or, maybe it isn’t quite so easy. I’m trying to envision how a program stream would look making content-based decisions on the fly. Since it takes some time to evaluate the content prior to applying the new ratio, we’d probably see a lot of on-air aspect changes a second or two into a new show segment or commercial, which could be kind of ugly.

Many commercials start out postage stamped in 16:9, but add text in the 4:3 letterbox areas part way through. How would those be handled?

What about native 16:9 programs that a station does not want to letterbox for 4:3? The prevailing view of TV stations and networks is that 16:9 shows should be center cut rather than letterboxed. But, sometimes letterboxing is better.

There are probably ways to overcome these kinds of challenges. But, I think the issue is not as simple as you portray it when it comes to running a TV station or a cable/satellite distribution service.

I live in Fremont (close to Wallingford, just a block east of Aurora/99 and two blocks south of 45th) and attached is my tvfool.com signal readout. I have a Zenith DTT901 attached to an RCA ANT130B UHF loop/VHF rabbit-ears setup, and my apartment is approximately 25 feet off the ground.

my question is, I'm wondering why the tvfool summary shows channel 45 as channel 44?

45.1 = AM ONE; seems to be a lot of infomercials
45.2 = Azteca (http://www.tv45.tv/); Latino programming
45.3 = AAT TV (http://www.aattv.com/); Mandarin, Cantonese and Korean programming
45.4 = AMG TV; low-rent Spike TV ripoff?


also, has anyone else lost ION as of today? i'm guessing it's temporary, whatever it is. i don't currently have my remote (roommate took it by accident when she moved out), so i can't do a channel rescan to see what else may be new.

If you're really into sports, 45.1 broadcasts English Premier League Soccer and the Canadian Football League.

KOMO: If you want to put a scroll on the bottom of the screen, make sure that the center channel is still there after you switch back to HD!!! I can't hear what people are saying!

That seems easy enough. But, to the best of my knowledge, there's no such application in the real world. Since you say the software itself is easy, I guess no one has figured out a business model that makes sense.

EDIT: Or, maybe it isn’t quite so easy. I’m trying to envision how a program stream would look making content-based decisions on the fly. Since it takes some time to evaluate the content prior to applying the new ratio, we’d probably see a lot of on-air aspect changes a second or two into a new show segment or commercial, which could be kind of ugly.

Many commercials start out postage stamped in 16:9, but add text in the 4:3 letterbox areas part way through. How would those be handled?

What about native 16:9 programs that a station does not want to letterbox for 4:3? The prevailing view of TV stations and networks is that 16:9 shows should be center cut rather than letterboxed. But, sometimes letterboxing is better.

There are probably ways to overcome these kinds of challenges. But, I think the issue is not as simple as you portray it when it comes to running a TV station or a cable/satellite distribution service.

BIslander is correct. Not so simple to do, on the fly, in the real world. You've got shows we would want to letterbox for one reason or another. You've got shows we would to center cut for one reason or another. We run a particular show I can think of, Charlie Rose, that has a very dark background that occasionally has things flicker in it. What happens to that one?

I suppose we could stuff the thing through a delay box (There goes $30k) and have a decent aspect ratio converter (There goes another $10k) apply some sort of a decision to the output. But it would still be chunking the aspect ratio back and forth far to often.

If you're really into sports, 45.1 broadcasts English Premier League Soccer and the Canadian Football League.

Nice to know. I tried that channel last night, and the picture quality of whatever program was coming was pretty bad...Didnt look SD digital at all.

I noticed that "Doc Martin" was windowboxed this evening. That is a pretty recent program. Are you getting it as 4:3 letterboxed? Could it be zoomed out?

Tonight's episode is filling the screen, but the rating indication at the beginning was partially offscreen, so I guess the original copy was letterboxed. The resolution is a bit soft, which zooming would effect. Still, it looks better this way.

Happened to go over to Fox ( 13-1) last couple of nights, and picture was not watchable ( just breaking up constantly). I know where I am, the strength of the signal is not much, and I have trouble at times when the weather is really bad, but should not be now.

I have DirecTV as well, so 13 on DirecTV is of course fine..( and thats what I would use during the NFL season).

Anybody else see this?

thanks

Anyone here have experience receiving OTA HD channels from Seattle in Olympia, Lacey, or Tumwater?

I'm in the eastside of Olympia and antennaweb is telling me I'll likely need a Blue rated antenna, probably with a pre-amp to get KOMO.

Anyone here get OTA in the Southsound? I'd like to set up an antenna, but want to see if what channels people are getting and whether a pre-amp and roof mounting are both necessary.

Thanks.

This is driving me crazy!

I've got a 3 bay 'bow-tie' antenna, at about 30' pointed dead-on at Queen Anne, from Sammamish; and I see ALL of the usual locals (4,7,9,11,13, 16, 22) digital signals, EXCEPT KING (5-1 and 5-2). I'm using a DirecTV HR-20 and have also tried a Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. It's like 5-1 and 5-2 just aren't there - ZERO in the signal strength meters, whereas KONG and ALL the others are at 98% or better.

Anyone have any ideas????

Thanks in advance!

Clay Jackson

CH5 has low signal strength East and West due to a peanut shaped antenna pattern. It looks to me like they serve more people North and South than East and West. I think they have a request in to change it.

This is driving me crazy!

I've got a 3 bay 'bow-tie' antenna, at about 30' pointed dead-on at Queen Anne, from Sammamish; and I see ALL of the usual locals (4,7,9,11,13, 16, 22) digital signals, EXCEPT KING (5-1 and 5-2). I'm using a DirecTV HR-20 and have also tried a Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. It's like 5-1 and 5-2 just aren't there - ZERO in the signal strength meters, whereas KONG and ALL the others are at 98% or better.

Anyone have any ideas????

Thanks in advance!

Clay Jackson

With your HR20, can't you get KING in HD from the satellite?

Yeah; but we really want the Universal Sports Net that KING is broadcasting on 5-2.

Looks like WaltC may have hit it - I also complained to investor relations people at Belo (after no one at KING would return my calls or email; and they're supposedly going to have someone call me Monday. I'll report the "official" story when I get it

This is driving me crazy!

I've got a 3 bay 'bow-tie' antenna, at about 30' pointed dead-on at Queen Anne, from Sammamish; and I see ALL of the usual locals (4,7,9,11,13, 16, 22) digital signals, EXCEPT KING (5-1 and 5-2). I'm using a DirecTV HR-20 and have also tried a Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. It's like 5-1 and 5-2 just aren't there - ZERO in the signal strength meters, whereas KONG and ALL the others are at 98% or better.

Anyone have any ideas????

Thanks in advance!

Clay Jackson

I live out in Duvall, and DanKurts recommended the longest-boom "Yagi" style antenna for my location, as the King5 signal is much weaker East-West than North-South. After experiments with CM4221 and CM4228, my best option was my old RatShack yagi when it comes to King5 (coupled with a CM 7777pre-amplifier.) Not sure if Dan will give the same advice for your location, but from my experience, go Yagi, go big, and amplify. Good luck!

This is driving me crazy!

I've got a 3 bay 'bow-tie' antenna, at about 30' pointed dead-on at Queen Anne, from Sammamish; and I see ALL of the usual locals (4,7,9,11,13, 16, 22) digital signals, EXCEPT KING (5-1 and 5-2). I'm using a DirecTV HR-20 and have also tried a Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. It's like 5-1 and 5-2 just aren't there - ZERO in the signal strength meters, whereas KONG and ALL the others are at 98% or better.

Anyone have any ideas????

Thanks in advance!

Clay Jackson

You may be getting a strong reflection off something that is killing CH 5. The meter reads signal "quality" not strength. So you may have adequate strength, but too many reflected signals (off-axis) to get a lock on it. One option is to move your antenna around to different locations to see if you can find a sweet spot for CH 5. Another option is to use a more directional antenna that would not "see" those reflections coming in off-axis. A long yagi style would be worth trying. Keep in mind that 9,11,13 are revertng to VHF in June if you change antennas.

This is driving me crazy!

I've got a 3 bay 'bow-tie' antenna, at about 30' pointed dead-on at Queen Anne, from Sammamish; and I see ALL of the usual locals (4,7,9,11,13, 16, 22) digital signals, EXCEPT KING (5-1 and 5-2). I'm using a DirecTV HR-20 and have also tried a Samsung LCD with a built in tuner. It's like 5-1 and 5-2 just aren't there - ZERO in the signal strength meters, whereas KONG and ALL the others are at 98% or better.

Anyone have any ideas????

Thanks in advance!

Clay Jackson

Clay
Sammamish can be tough, for all the reasons quarque and others mentioned. It's mainly the trees and KING's weak eastbound signal. Try another location, double check your fittings, make sure the cable didn't get squashed or pinched, and replace the balun, just for grins. Make sure you don't get the baluns connection wires to the antenna terminals twisted, either.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

So, here are my results with the Terk TV1 antenna, from Shoreline (North Seattle), cross streets 150th and 25th. I used a Sylvania Portable TV for this experiment. I must say I was pleasantly suprised:

These channels all came in really clearly:
4.1- KOMO (When will "This TV", be added as a subchannel to 4.2?)
5.1- KING
5.2- Universal Sports (I LOVE THIS CHANNEL!)
7.1- KIRO
7.2- Retro Television Network
9.1- KCTS
9.2- V-Me
9.3- KCTS Create (Seems almost like a Food Network/HGTV Hybrid)
11.1- KSTW
16.1- KONG
16.2- KONG (Again, what a waste!)
22.1- KMYQ
33.1- KWPX (ION)
33.2- Qubo (24 Hour Kids Channel)
33.3- ION Life
33.4- Worship Network
42.1- KWDK (Daystar)
45.1- KHCV (America One)
45.2- Azteca America
45.3- AAT TV
45.4- AMG TV
51.1- KUNS (Univison)

Then, there was KCPQ. There was only one spot in the house where I could pick up this station, the extremely southwest corner. Once the antenna was perfectly set, 13.1 and 13.2 (Accuweather), came in crystal clear. But, I moved the antenna the slightest bit, and could not pick the signal back up to the point where I could get a picture.

Finally, I got a registered signal, but no picture on 20.1 (KTBW), 27.1 (KBTC), and 35.1 (KVOS)

So, my question is: What do I need to do to pick up KCPQ, KTBW, KBTC, and KVOS? Since I'm picking up a slight signal, would I get an amplifier? Would a better antenna do the trick? Thanks In Advance!

BIslander is correct. Not so simple to do, on the fly, in the real world. You've got shows we would want to letterbox for one reason or another. You've got shows we would to center cut for one reason or another. We run a particular show I can think of, Charlie Rose, that has a very dark background that occasionally has things flicker in it. What happens to that one?


mplayer has had a filter for years that does auto detecting of letterboxing. I write digital video software. This isn't a hard problem.

Shows don't switch between letterbox and 4:3 on a frame-by-frame basis. You use hysteresis to only switch after a certain number of frames are consistently detected as letterboxed or full-frame.

Letterboxing that's worth detecting is only done in a very narrow range of aspect ratios. Is a mostly dark frame with something in the middle letterboxed 32:9 content? Of course not, there's nothing that's 32:9. The letterboxing bars needs to be in a in a certain location on the top and the bottom to be letterboxing. Black bar on the top, not on the bottom? That's not letterboxing.

You don't just look at what's black, but also what's not black. If the top 60 lines of a SD frame are black (say luma between 16 and 20 for every single pixel), that's not enough to be a letterbox bar, it could just be a dark frame. Now if there are a number of pixels with a luma over 80 on line 61, then that's a very good indication that what you have is a letterboxing bar.

Of course automatic on the fly de-letterboxing sounds like more than what a TV station needs. Your automation system knows when you're switching feeds, doesn't it? That's really the only time you need to check. In many cases you probably know if it's letterboxed or not and only need to have software guess in some cases. What's more, you're not broadcasting something live all that often. Most of what you're sending out you had access to before it was broadcast. All you really need is an automated system to check it out ahead of time and tell your automation system what's LB and what's not.


I suppose we could stuff the thing through a delay box (There goes $30k) and have a decent aspect ratio converter (There goes another $10k) apply some sort of a decision to the output. But it would still be chunking the aspect ratio back and forth far to often.
I've got to get into the broadcaster market, you guys pay way too much.

So, here are my results with the Terk TV1 antenna, from Shoreline (North Seattle), cross streets 150th and 25th. I used a Sylvania Portable TV for this experiment. I must say I was pleasantly suprised:

These channels all came in really clearly:
4.1- KOMO (When will "This TV", be added as a subchannel to 4.2?)
5.1- KING
5.2- Universal Sports (I LOVE THIS CHANNEL!)
7.1- KIRO
7.2- Retro Television Network
9.1- KCTS
9.2- V-Me
9.3- KCTS Create (Seems almost like a Food Network/HGTV Hybrid)
11.1- KSTW
16.1- KONG
16.2- KONG (Again, what a waste!)
22.1- KMYQ
33.1- KWPX (ION)
33.2- Qubo (24 Hour Kids Channel)
33.3- ION Life
33.4- Worship Network
42.1- KWDK (Daystar)
45.1- KHCV (America One)
45.2- Azteca America
45.3- AAT TV
45.4- AMG TV
51.1- KUNS (Univison)

Then, there was KCPQ. There was only one spot in the house where I could pick up this station, the extremely southwest corner. Once the antenna was perfectly set, 13.1 and 13.2 (Accuweather), came in crystal clear. But, I moved the antenna the slightest bit, and could not pick the signal back up to the point where I could get a picture.

Finally, I got a registered signal, but no picture on 20.1 (KTBW), 27.1 (KBTC), and 35.1 (KVOS)

So, my question is: What do I need to do to pick up KCPQ, KTBW, KBTC, and KVOS? Since I'm picking up a slight signal, would I get an amplifier? Would a better antenna do the trick? Thanks In Advance!

Not bad!! I would say in this case I would try a quality amplified antenna. I've had much success picking up otherwise zero Seattle stations from fife, wa when I added a Phillips 18db amplifier from Wallmart for about $20 to my attic mounted vhf/uhf antenna.

With that much Seattle reception, take care not to 'over' amplify your signal which may cause the converter to loose your already strong signals because they are just too strong. In other words if these channels you listed above are 30-60% signal strength you should be fine. If they are already 90+ you might have problems unless you have some control over the amount of amplification.

TVfool.com signal chart for 2500 ne 150th seattle shows that you are getting great reception for all of those LOS (line of sight) stations, however, the three you want are 2edge (ie. behind a hill) and will most likely require some amplification.

Keep us updated, hope it helps!

EDIT:
After thinking more about this... I wanted to add that you would be better off with a more 'directional' antenna aimed at those weak stations with an amplifier. This will help pickup the weak ones and not be 'as sensitive' to the others so it would help prevent 'over-gain' issues....

Anyone notice that KOMO-TV wiki page says they were the first station in the nation to broadcast local news in HD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOMO-TV

I have edited the page to reflect the truth numerous times and it continues to get changed back. Is some flunky KOMO intern messing with wikipedia?

Anyone notice that KOMO-TV wiki page says they were the first station in the nation to broadcast local news in HD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOMO-TV

I have edited the page to reflect the truth numerous times and it continues to get changed back. Is some flunky KOMO intern messing with wikipedia?

KOMO TV was early in their broadcasting of widescreen news, but even their technical folks have explained that it was not HD, just widescreen ED (essentially digital SD). But, compared to the other stations still broadcasting upconverted versions of their analog news programs at the time, the KOMO studio news video looked pretty darn good.

Anyone notice that KOMO-TV wiki page says they were the first station in the nation to broadcast local news in HD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOMO-TV

I have edited the page to reflect the truth numerous times and it continues to get changed back. Is some flunky KOMO intern messing with wikipedia?

I updated the KHCV wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHCV), and someone changed it back. I updated the text in the box on the side of the page and took out the analog channel and changed the digital subchannels. The current subchannels are

45.1 AMG TV
45.2 Azteca America
45.3 AAT TV
45.4 America One

KOMO TV was early in their broadcasting of widescreen news, but even their technical folks have explained that it was not HD, just widescreen ED (essentially digital SD). But, compared to the other stations still broadcasting upconverted versions of their analog news programs at the time, the KOMO studio news video looked pretty darn good.

I totally agree, but the truth is not negotiable. The people at KOMO should be ashamed to claim they did something that they did not.

The fact that they claim to be the first station in the nation to broadcast local news in HD, when in fact 10 years after the claim, they still do not is just sad.

As it stands, the wiki page makes it seem as though they were the first, and then for some reason they just stopped HD news and changed to ED?

I'm just going to keep editing the page and maybe I will try to get their "source" to retract their original incorrect article.

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/10437/index.html

45.1 AMG TV
45.2 Azteca America
45.3 AAT TV
45.4 America One

The last couple of shows I tried to TiVo on KHCV didn't record (well, something recorded, but it wasn't the shows I'd wanted) becuase my guide still thinks 45-1 is A1. This took weeks for TiVo/TVGuide/Tribune to sort out when A1 moved from 45-4 to 45-1, and now it's moved back...

Sorry, just venting. :)

Is it down? I haven't been able to pick it up for a few days now.

no issues down in tacoma with it at all.

Is it down? I haven't been able to pick it up for a few days now.

Did you rescan/change the frequencies? It moved from physical channel 32 to 33 a couple of days ago (I think this was mentioned earlier in this forum).

Anyone picking it up? or has KOMO not started carrying it?

Anyone picking it up? or has KOMO not started carrying it?

I'm not picking it up. I'm assuming KOMO hasn't started carrying it yet. The wikipedia page for This TV, says KOMO would add it sometime in February, so they have 2 1/2 hours to get their act together! :D

Did you rescan/change the frequencies? It moved from physical channel 32 to 33 a couple of days ago (I think this was mentioned earlier in this forum).

I thought that might be the case so I did a rescan on all my tuners, 2 TR-40's and a Samsung DTB-H260F. Oddly, the TR-40's now say channel 33.1 is virtual channel 70.1. Samsung still says 33.1, as it should.
I've also noticed that the signal is far more directional now. I used to be able to keep my antenna in a single position and get all the Queen Anne stations as well as the ones more to the East. Now I have to rotate my antenna to get Channel 33.

AntennaWeb says I need small or medium multi-directional antenna for my location near downtown Seattle. That would be great except for 2 things:

1) What does that translate into for a product I can order online? Will the Antennas Direct DB2 work?

2) I am worried about my elevation: I'm down a big hill on the 3rd floor of a concrete building, surrounded by other buildings with no clear line-of-site to any broadcast antennas. Will an antenna work under these almost bunker-like conditions?

Many thanks,

- Paul

AntennaWeb says I need small or medium multi-directional antenna for my location near downtown Seattle. That would be great except for 2 things:

1) What does that translate into for a product I can order online? Will the Antennas Direct DB2 work?

2) I am worried about my elevation: I'm down a big hill on the 3rd floor of a concrete building, surrounded by other buildings with no clear line-of-site to any broadcast antennas. Will an antenna work under these almost bunker-like conditions?

Many thanks,

- Paul

It is almost impossible to tell what would work or not in that setting. I'd start with stuff available locally because it may take several attempts to find something that works (and returning each one that doesn't). Radio Shack has a few low-cost units. Stay away from anything amplified. Start cheap and work your way up. Begin with your basic rabbit ears + loop which can handle UHF and VHF. In June, 9,11,13 are going back to VHF. The loop part is a very non-directional UHF antenna and might work since you will have plenty of signal. If that does not do much then try the Silver Sensor which is more directional. Similar designs are sold under other names. It will take lots of patience.

Anyone picking it up? or has KOMO not started carrying it?

Portland got it first, for some reason. Seattle and Eugene are next.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174122-More_Fisher_Stations_Add_This_TV.php

KCPQ is showing up on my set as 18.3 and 18.4 tonight instead of 13.1 and 13.2. I did a rescan and it stayed the same. Is anyone else experiencing this?

@Steve: me too - 100% signal, no program

18-1 and 18-2 after rescan

@Steve: me too - 100% signal, no program

18-1 and 18-2 after rescan

Maybe they're getting ready to turn off analog VHF 13 and fire up the digital VHF 13 simultaneously with UHF 18?

I imagine the PSIP computer just froze or something. That's what it sounds like from what I'm reading here.

- Trip

Maybe they're getting ready to turn off analog VHF 13 and fire up the digital VHF 13 simultaneously with UHF 18?

For any of you currently using a UHF 18 Jointenna for KCPQ, you can get a good deal right now on a VHF 13 jointenna for after the digital transition.

http://channelmasterstore.com/search.htm?keyword=jointenna

I imagine the PSIP computer just froze or something. That's what it sounds like from what I'm reading here.

- Trip

That's exactly what it sounds like. I've had that happen to me on more than one occasion... Either that or it went back to the factory configs.

For any of you currently using a UHF 18 Jointenna for KCPQ, you can get a good deal right now on a VHF 13 jointenna for after the digital transition.

http://channelmasterstore.com/search.htm?keyword=jointenna

$5.99 each... And after opening up and looking at the guts in the Ch18 jointenna I had, I'd say they're still making a nice profit. :)

http://home.centurytel.net/tanagra/images/join-tenna.jpg

I was watching channel 13, KCPQ HD OTA, and all of a sudden my Samsung plasma let out a wicked buzzing noise and rebooted. It powered up and went through the same cycle about three times before I finally unplugged the power since the remote was useless, and I could not change sources/channels manually on the unit. After plugging back in it did the same thing. I unplugged the power again, and disconnected the antenna. Powered up, and was cool, switched the source to KCPQ HD on Comcast (basic cable hooked directly to input) and all was well.

This happened a couple years ago with KOMO 4. The problem ended up being glitches in the transmitted guide data which the Samsung tuners evidently are sensitive to.

I don't receive any guide data on Comcast, so this would be my theory on why I didn't have any problems after changing sources.

The problem started around 9:05 PM tonight. Anyone else see anything weird with KCPQ OTA?
Both my Samsung Sir-T451 and T351 OTA recievers are having the reboot issues with KCPQ HD OTA. It started a few weeks ago and was intermittent, but now I can not watch KCPQ (Q13 fox) HD without my receivers rebooting over and over again.
The guide data was mentioned below as the problem but how can this be resolved or is KCPQ working on this during the transition to DTV?

@Steve: me too - 100% signal, no program

18-1 and 18-2 after rescan

update:
seems back to normal now... oddly enough after i wrote the first post I discovered that my Zenith 901 was still showing 13 on 13.1 correctly vs. the cm-7000 that was acting as described above

fwiw

It looks like KHCV has changed its channel lineup again.

45.1 AMG TV
45.2 Azteca America
45.3 AAT TV
45.4 MBCD

It looks like KHCV has changed its channel lineup again.

45.1 AMG TV
45.2 Azteca America
45.3 AAT TV
45.4 MBCD

WHY?!? Why would they get rid of America One, with the English Premier League Soccer and Canadian Football, and replace it with a Korean channel? WHY?

WHY?!? Why would they get rid of America One, with the English Premier League Soccer and Canadian Football, and replace it with a Korean channel? WHY?

Since I can't receive that channel I don't really care, but probably there is more advertising revenue that way.

Watching "Bones" tonight, I'd lose the video (audio was fine) but when the video came back, it was no longer HD but letterboxed SD. This happened a couple of times. Anybody else seeing his?

yeah I saw that disconnect on both my MythTV DVR and Samsung TV. I thought it was first something wrong with the DVR so I switched to the TV and got the audio with a symbol from my tv on the screen saying it was just an audio stream.

Same with Hell's Kitchen. I think it was their HD feed that was the problem since at times the picture started to pixelate as if you had very bad reception.

Watching "Bones" tonight, I'd lose the video (audio was fine) but when the video came back, it was no longer HD but letterboxed SD. This happened a couple of times. Anybody else seeing his?

Yes, it was a KCPQ/FOX problem. Also reported in the ComCast forum and DirecTV forums. I observed the same issues on my DirecTV and off-air reception. Took them a while to switch over the SD feed, suggesting it was a FOX source problem.

I thought there might be some talk about the KCPQ signal on here (which there is) so I thought I would add some info. I'm an operations coordinator in the master control department, and have been dealing with some problems for a few weeks now. I'm not a maintenance person so I can't get too technical, but hopefully I can help answer some questions.

x43x - nice to have some real info from the "inside". Thanks for posting and keep us informed on anything you think may be of value.

Thanks for the update. I noticed KCPQDT was also upconverting last night for Simpsons.. luckily there's a 720p version on BT.. Hope 24 will be in HD tonight...

x43x, I too thank you for the info, but I would feel a lot better if you change your screenname to x169x...

No problem folks. x169x?

x169x?

4:3 as opposed to 16:9 I suppose.

Just a bad joke attempt.

Ahhh, I get it now. Haha...

I'm experiencing problems with 45.1-45.4. I get good signal strength (90%), signal quality (89%) and symbol quality (100%) but no PSIP info is decoded and I don't get a picture. Is there a problem with the station? If not what could cause this kind of problem?

John

I'm experiencing problems with 45.1-45.4. I get good signal strength (90%), signal quality (89%) and symbol quality (100%) but no PSIP info is decoded and I don't get a picture. Is there a problem with the station? If not what could cause this kind of problem?

John

It's worse than that. They're dead Jim.

The transmitter is up and rolling with 19.39 Mbps of null packets. No picture. No sound. No PSIP. Nothing. Just nulls.

Thus sayeth TSReader.

What's up with the PSIP data on 42? All I get displayed is "23", no call sign (KWDK?) or other data. I can only pick it up with my HDHomeRun tuner, not with my Vizio or my Apex converter box. It isn't even listed in the database for my Directv HR20.

Anyone else curious what channel numbers KOMO and KING will report after they shut down their Ch. 4 & 5 transmitters? Will the FCC allow them to claim they're channels 4 & 5? Or, will they actually show on screen just what channels they really are on??? I think I read that neither will move DT to their current analog channels.

Anyone else curious what channel numbers KOMO and KING will report after they shut down their Ch. 4 & 5 transmitters? Will the FCC allow them to claim they're channels 4 & 5? Or, will they actually show on screen just what channels they really are on??? I think I read that neither will move DT to their current analog channels.

They will probably still show up as 4.x and 5.x in PSIP data and as 4 and 5 on cable/satellite, although they will be transmitting on channels 38 and 48. I think this is true for nearly all stations. The transition is confusing enough people as it is.

KCPQ - We will be reconfiguring our analog transmitter to broadcast on VHF digital ch13. Digital ch18 which we broadcast on now, will go away. Don't throw away your VHF antenna, because you won't receive us with a UHF only one.

KMYQ - We will turn off our analog transmitter and boost the power of our digital ch25. PSIP info should still point your receiver to ch22 however.

[QUOTE=x43x;16088888]KCPQ - We will be reconfiguring our analog transmitter to broadcast on VHF digital ch13. Digital ch18 which we broadcast on now, will go away. Don't throw away your VHF antenna, because you won't receive us with a UHF only one.
...
QUOTE]

Actually, many UHF-only antennas have enough gain in the high-VHF band to work with the new high-VHF channel assignments. So before anyone runs out to buy a VHF antenna, try your UHF on the new digital 9,11,13 after the June transition (or during one of those early-morning test runs). This has already proved successful for many when they are close enough to the VHF towers. If you are 20+ miles away or behind a thick stand of trees you should plan on a VHF antenna and possibly an amp, but you just never know with digital what will work until you try it...

Any KIRO engineers around? Just wonder why 7.2 has to be 4:3 instead of 16:9? This could be the time for 7.2 to shine but for me it fails...

ahhhh, KCPQ uses Radio Shack gear... that explains alot! :eek:

ahhhh, KCPQ uses Radio Shack gear... that explains alot! :eek:

I think he was referring to the end-user equipment (us), not studio equipment. Or was that another lame joke? :eek:

Any KIRO engineers around? Just wonder why 7.2 has to be 4:3 instead of 16:9? This could be the time for 7.2 to shine but for me it fails...

Other than March Madness, almost all of their programming is from RTN, which is all 4:3. I recall that before RTN they had rebroadcasts of some of the local news which I think squeezed the 16:9 frame down to 4:3 or something similar, instead of center cutting or letterboxing. It didn't look very good to me.

Yeah, the March Madness, it's unbearable to watch on 7.2. I am too old for this anyway...

Yeah, the March Madness, it's unbearable to watch on 7.2. I am too old for this anyway...

It is a fairly low bit rate, which is probably good because it doesn't rob too much from 7.1.

KCTS ran some 16:9 local programming in 480i before 9.1 switched to HD. It didn't look all that bad. I suppose that KIRO could do it but with most of the 7.2 programming being 4:3 it might not be worth their while.

King runs a higher bit rate on 5.2 and it doesn't look any better, but the source may be fairly low resolution.

The bitrates on 5.2 and 7.2 are way too low for sports programming. 5.2 is a bit better than 7.2, but not by much. Watching old tv shows or weather channels with these bitrates might be acceptable, but sports is not.
And if Kiro would increase the bitrates for 7.2, they probably have to decrease 7.1, and people would complain again...

I don't mean to ask for increased bit rate, just to keep the 16:9. Does anyone know if the Sounders FC games on KONG will be in HD? I guess I can find out this Saturday.

I don't mean to ask for increased bit rate, just to keep the 16:9. Does anyone know if the Sounders FC games on KONG will be in HD? I guess I can find out this Saturday.

Neither Zap2it nor Titantv indicate that it will be in HD, but that would be nice.

KCTS ran some 16:9 local programming in 480i before 9.1 switched to HD. It didn't look all that bad. I suppose that KIRO could do it but with most of the 7.2 programming being 4:3 it might not be worth their while.

King runs a higher bit rate on 5.2 and it doesn't look any better, but the source may be fairly low resolution.

16:9 SD is a fairly brainless point and click operation on most encoders. We had lots of wide screen material available to us to run in SD. Indeed most of our locally produced wide screen material is SD to this day.

While I obviously can't speak for the rest of the stations, RDN is correct. The real question is how much material is available in wide screen and is it worth the trouble to try and affect some sort of conversion on it to get it into another format.

Has anyone had success in getting reception in Ancortes. I put an antenna in my attic and I'm able to receive both KVOS and KCPQ in digital. No luck with
4. 5. 7. 9, or 11.
I do get them weakly in analog.

Has anyone had success in getting reception in Ancortes. I put an antenna in my attic and I'm able to receive both KVOS and KCPQ in digital. No luck with 4. 5. 7. 9, or 11. I do get them weakly in analog.Where in town are you??? I don't get any signal, but then I can see hills between me and Seattle. I'm at 41 & H.

I'm by Clearridge (near the airport)

Has anyone had success in getting reception in Ancortes. I put an antenna in my attic and I'm able to receive both KVOS and KCPQ in digital. No luck with
4. 5. 7. 9, or 11.
I do get them weakly in analog.


I plotted your line-of-site to the Seattle towers and you are behind a ridge (Ginnett Hill, west of Lake Campbell). It would take a substantial antenna tower (150+ feet) to get past that ridge so I would not count on anything from Seattle. You might get the occasional reflection but that would be very unreliable/unwatchable.

It's worse than that. They're dead Jim.

The transmitter is up and rolling with 19.39 Mbps of null packets. No picture. No sound. No PSIP. Nothing. Just nulls.

Thus sayeth TSReader.

Channel 45 is back, now with correct PSIP Channel names, but no guide data. I checked yesterday and I could not find a signal.

I am also not getting any guide data from channel 28.

(I am using a DTVPAL DVR)

Thanks for the info.
Does anyone in Anacortes have luck getting the digital stations from Victoria or Vancouver BC?

Channel 45 is back, now with correct PSIP Channel names, but no guide data. I checked yesterday and I could not find a signal.

I am also not getting any guide data from channel 28.

(I am using a DTVPAL DVR)

They've never had proper guide data. At least not that I have ever seen.

Thanks for the info.
Does anyone in Anacortes have luck getting the digital stations from Victoria or Vancouver BC?

I'm on a hill in the south end of Bellevue looking north. I have a rather substantial receive system. I get them occasionaly, when everything is just so, but not very often.

I'm on a hill in the south end of Bellevue looking north. I have a rather substantial receive system. I get them occasionaly, when everything is just so, but not very often.

I pretty much have a line of sight with Victoria, and have only been able to pick up a scent of CBUT-DT once, but never could get a picture, and I'm on a hill in Marysville.
You must have quite the system to get Canadian digital signals that far south.

I'm by Clearridge (near the airport)
When I lived out at Gibralter (Entner Lane) I had reception of all Seattle DT channels. Best was KCPQ.

Hi, I'm in Auburn about 30 miles from Seattle. I have an admittedly old roof antenna (looks to be a directional from the 70's) and currently using an SD tuner in my DVR. Analog signals come in clearly for 4, 5, 7, 9, 13. 11 and 16 are fuzzy. Unfortunately, when I switch to digital, I can't get any signal lower than 13! I get lots of channels above that, but just a big blue screen for 4, 5, 7 and 9.

We are just looking to get digital OTA and not get cable. Any suggestions? We live in a rural neighborhood on a hill, but there are lots of trees around. I currently have the antenna pointed toward Seattle per the antennaweb site, but no luck.

Thanks!

Hi, I'm in Auburn about 30 miles from Seattle. I have an admittedly old roof antenna (looks to be a directional from the 70's) and currently using an SD tuner in my DVR. Analog signals come in clearly for 4, 5, 7, 9, 13. 11 and 16 are fuzzy. Unfortunately, when I switch to digital, I can't get any signal lower than 13! I get lots of channels above that, but just a big blue screen for 4, 5, 7 and 9.

We are just looking to get digital OTA and not get cable. Any suggestions? We live in a rural neighborhood on a hill, but there are lots of trees around. I currently have the antenna pointed toward Seattle per the antennaweb site, but no luck.

Thanks!

Most likely you have a VHF only antenna which explains you getting 4, 5, 7, 9, 13 clearly. Most of the digital channels are on UHF, so you will probably need to get a UHF antenna. When you say "switch to digital" are you trying to use your SD DVR or do you have a separate digital (ATSC) tuner.

If you include your address or coordinates, there are some knowledgeable forum users who can evaluate the terrain around you and make recommendations for antenna setup at your location. Hope this helps.

Channel 45 is back, now with correct PSIP Channel names, but no guide data. I checked yesterday and I could not find a signal.

I am also not getting any guide data from channel 28.

(I am using a DTVPAL DVR)

There seems to be a problem with TVGOS. It seems they stopped sending guide info to the analog stations and went to digital, from what I've heard on the SONY DHG forum. They are also having problems with the digital transmissions so they stopped them entirely until they get it fixed. Some areas of the country have resumed the analog signals but I don't think we are one of them.

Most likely you have a VHF only antenna which explains you getting 4, 5, 7, 9, 13 clearly. Most of the digital channels are on UHF, so you will probably need to get a UHF antenna. When you say "switch to digital" are you trying to use your SD DVR or do you have a separate digital (ATSC) tuner.

If you include your address or coordinates, there are some knowledgeable forum users who can evaluate the terrain around you and make recommendations for antenna setup at your location. Hope this helps.

Thanks. I'm using the SD tuner in my DVR. We actually get digital channels 13.1-2, 20.1-2, 28.1-3 pretty well. Are those VHF or UHF? The lower channels (4,etc) only come in when in analog.

The data I found for our location is:
47.332381,-122.197904

17° 0' E changing by 0° 10' W/year

Thanks!

Thanks. I'm using the SD tuner in my DVR. We actually get digital channels 13.1-2, 20.1-2, 28.1-3 pretty well. Are those VHF or UHF? The lower channels (4,etc) only come in when in analog.

The data I found for our location is:
47.332381,-122.197904

17° 0' E changing by 0° 10' W/year

Thanks!

Per my topo plot, your location does not pose any terrain issues so unless you have thick stands of trees in the way you *should* be able to get all Seattle stations. If your antenna is truly VHF only then you will need to get a UHF unit or you may want to get a VHF/UHF combo since 9,11,13 are reverting back to VHF in June. My guess is that your current antenna is able to get 13,20,28 because those are not in the higher UHF band. Some VHF antennas have enough gain in the low end of the UHF band to supply decent signal, some not.

There seems to be a problem with TVGOS. It seems they stopped sending guide info to the analog stations and went to digital, from what I've heard on the SONY DHG forum. They are also having problems with the digital transmissions so they stopped them entirely until they get it fixed. Some areas of the country have resumed the analog signals but I don't think we are one of them.

I am talking about PSIP guide data, not TVGOS.



I do get Digital TVGOS data for 5-1, 7-1/2, 9-1/2/3, 12-1, 16-1/2, 22-1, 28-1/2/4, 33-1/2/3, and 51-1. No TVGOS Data or 4-1, 5-2, 11-1, and 13-1/2, and 45-1/2/3/4.

There seems to be a problem with TVGOS. It seems they stopped sending guide info to the analog stations and went to digital, from what I've heard on the SONY DHG forum. They are also having problems with the digital transmissions so they stopped them entirely until they get it fixed. Some areas of the country have resumed the analog signals but I don't think we are one of them.

Maybe that explains why after I rest the Tgos data on my Pio plasma it just says no data

Swapped out my hand built Gray-Hooverman antenna sitting next to the TV with a DB4 mounted in the rafters of the garage and run into the house's cable system. Now I'm picking up 5.1 and 5.2 again (had trouble for some reason) along with the rest of the big channels. Didn't put a lot of effort into pointing. I just put it up in the general direction of Seattle and the towers I want.

The cable in the house is a single outlet in the living room and runs the length of the house to the cable box outside the garage. I'm planning on putting another outlet into the family room in the basement to provide signal for a TV down there.

Also waiting for a UHF/VHF preamp but considering just sending it back once it gets here. My only thought is it might help once the digital conversion date hits and some channels (KCTS) move back to VHF and on the edge of this antenna's reception.

Per my topo plot, your location does not pose any terrain issues so unless you have thick stands of trees in the way you *should* be able to get all Seattle stations. If your antenna is truly VHF only then you will need to get a UHF unit or you may want to get a VHF/UHF combo since 9,11,13 are reverting back to VHF in June. My guess is that your current antenna is able to get 13,20,28 because those are not in the higher UHF band. Some VHF antennas have enough gain in the low end of the UHF band to supply decent signal, some not.

Thanks! We do have woods between us and Seattle; I'm sure that's part of it.

This may seem dumb, but how do I tell if my antenna is VHF or UHF? And if we decide to buy a new antenna, any recommendations?

This may seem dumb, but how do I tell if my antenna is VHF or UHF? And if we decide to buy a new antenna, any recommendations?

How wide are the elements? If all the elements are 3-8' wide, then it is VHF only. Have a look at this antenna and see how it compares with yours. This has both VHF (back) and UHF (front) elements.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANC3679

If you can post a picture of your antenna, we can evaluate it as well.

Unless you want FM on the same antenna, you shouldn't need Low-VHF (2-6) capabilities. In this case, something like the following can be considered:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=OBO-HD7697P

Edit: Added a cross section plot to KING. There appears to be a slight obstruction with an antenna height of 10m. A TV Fool plot seems to confirm this.

We actually get digital channels 13.1-2, 20.1-2, 28.1-3 pretty well. Are those VHF or UHF?

These are UHF for now, but 13 will be going back to VHF in June. However, these 3 are towards the W/NW vs. more towards the North for most local stations. The TV Fool plot above illustrates this.

Anyone else noticing a problem with the Fox network feed? Just flipped over and it looks like they are showing a black screen with audio that sounds like a skipping record.

Anyone else picking up THIS TV on 38.2? I did a rescan on the Samsung tv last night with the new antenna and picked up THIS TV. My MythTV box (kworld card) isn't seeing the channel at all. 38 is their UHF Channel so for whatever reason it's not remapping properly to 4.2. Still can't figure out why the other tuner isn't picking it up.

Probably testing it without PSIP, which would explain why it's not mapping on one and not showing up on another.

- Trip

I don't mean to ask for increased bit rate, just to keep the 16:9. Does anyone know if the Sounders FC games on KONG will be in HD? I guess I can find out this Saturday.

It was (16:9 at least--my 70 year-old eyes can't really distinguish between good quality 480 and 720 or 1080).

It was (16:9 at least--my 70 year-old eyes can't really distinguish between good quality 480 and 720 or 1080).

Sure looked like it until those last two minutes when the feed went dead. Switched over to 16.2 to catch the ending.

Anyone else picking up THIS TV on 38.2? I did a rescan on the Samsung tv last night with the new antenna and picked up THIS TV. My MythTV box (kworld card) isn't seeing the channel at all. 38 is their UHF Channel so for whatever reason it's not remapping properly to 4.2. Still can't figure out why the other tuner isn't picking it up.

My HP TV picked it up also. Pretty sure neither my wife or I did a rescan. It shows up here as 38.3. It might have been seen here on 38.2 once, because the TV shows that subchannel too, with no broadcast now.

Neither my DTVPal+ or Digital Stream converter boxes can see it, even when I try to tell them it exists.

Perhaps KOMO will turn on PSIP stuff for it when a contract allows it to be broadcast?

TitanTV is showing TV listings for This TV channel 4.2. Its not on Zap2it or TVGuide yet.

KCPQ has been breaking up all weekend for me. It is the same OTA and through Dish. The audio will drop out and the video will pixelate for a split second every 20-60 seconds or so.

Is anyone else having this issue?

KCPQ has been breaking up all weekend for me. It is the same OTA and through Dish. The audio will drop out and the video will pixelate for a split second every 20-60 seconds or so.

Is anyone else having this issue?

Haven't watched KCPQ much this weekend, but it had the same problems Friday evening with Terminator and Dollhouse on OTA 13.1. I thought it looked better on analog OTA.

I don't have any analog tuners hooked up to try it. I'm using my Dish VIP722 for OTA and satellite programming. It's good to know that it's not just me.

KCPQ has been breaking up all weekend for me. It is the same OTA and through Dish. The audio will drop out and the video will pixelate for a split second every 20-60 seconds or so.

Is anyone else having this issue?

YES. I was worried my new antenna wasn't pointed correctly. Even with decent signal strength I was getting weird video and audio problems. I was noticing this sunday evening (6-10) even after repointing the antenna. It was really throwing my mythtv box for a loop too for some reason. I ended up just watching it from the samsung tuner on the TV.

This morning, KOMO's This TV subchannel showed up as 4.2 on my Zenith DTT-900 CECB.

Got the Preamp (PA-18, antennas direct via amazon) in today and hooked it up only to loose all but channel 7 (digital). Can't figure out why, I removed the preamp and get the stations but some are flakey. I'm running through about 75' of old(er) coax in the house and probably 50' of new coax i've installed from the antenna to the house line and from the wall to the TV equipment.

A quick volt check on the power injector shows 15.5v being fed into the cable and at the preamp so I'm not loosing voltage somewhere along the line. AC-DC wall wart says its suppose to be outputting 12VDC, looks like a cheap converter.

Anything else I can check before sending the preamp back?

Sure looked like it until those last two minutes when the feed went dead. Switched over to 16.2 to catch the ending.
I did the same thing. Strange. It did come back shortly though. Again, why don't they keep 16:9 on 16.2?

Got the Preamp (PA-18, antennas direct via amazon) in today and hooked it up only to loose all but channel 7 (digital). Can't figure out why, I removed the preamp and get the stations but some are flakey. I'm running through about 75' of old(er) coax in the house and probably 50' of new coax i've installed from the antenna to the house line and from the wall to the TV equipment.

A quick volt check on the power injector shows 15.5v being fed into the cable and at the preamp so I'm not loosing voltage somewhere along the line. AC-DC wall wart says its suppose to be outputting 12VDC, looks like a cheap converter.

Anything else I can check before sending the preamp back?


twostar
You could be overloading the tuner if one or more of the channels you receive is quite strong. It will give the same effect. Noise or interference from something nearby can be amplified and confuse the tuner as well. And the obvious, a bad preamp.
If your tuner is analog as well, check a snowy or weak analog channel, and then connect the preamp. If the snow disappears or lessens, then it's probably working. You will still have ghosting, most likely, but the picture should look a bit cleaner.
Whats your cross streets and I'll check the location.
Dan

twostar
You could be overloading the tuner if one or more of the channels you receive is quite strong. It will give the same effect. Noise or interference from something nearby can be amplified and confuse the tuner as well. And the obvious, a bad preamp.
If your tuner is analog as well, check a snowy or weak analog channel, and then connect the preamp. If the snow disappears or lessens, then it's probably working. You will still have ghosting, most likely, but the picture should look a bit cleaner.
Whats your cross streets and I'll check the location.
Dan

I didn't think to check the analog side. I can give that a go this evening. As for a strong signal, with the DB2 being inside the garage I don't get any particularly strong signals. I had tried the antenna on a 6' coax next to the TV to see how it compared to my Gray-Hoverman and again none of the channels came in particularly strong.

The next step will be to either solidify the GH antenna or mount the DB2 on the roof somewhere. TVfool.com gives me line of sight for all the major channels except Fox and if I can get high enough I may pick up Fox line of sight.

Thanks for the help.

Got the Preamp (PA-18, antennas direct via amazon) in today and hooked it up only to loose all but channel 7 (digital). Can't figure out why, I removed the preamp and get the stations but some are flakey. I'm running through about 75' of old(er) coax in the house and probably 50' of new coax i've installed from the antenna to the house line and from the wall to the TV equipment.

Anything else I can check before sending the preamp back?

twostar
You could be overloading the tuner if one or more of the channels you receive is quite strong. It will give the same effect. Noise or interference from something nearby can be amplified and confuse the tuner as well. And the obvious, a bad preamp.
Dan

Or you could be overloading the preamp with signals you are not aware of. Check out this discussion:
http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hdtv-info-reception/23092-winegard-hdp-269-revisited.html

Richard
KR7L

twostar, my guess is you get unreliable signal in the garage so it was borderline before the pre-amp added some additional noise which rendered many of the channels unusable. I used to put my antenna in the attic but it was choppy at times, on various channels, brought it outdoors all the while adding 100ft of dual shield coax made it 10 times better. You may want to try outdoors, don't have to go on the roof as long as you can get a LOS.

twostar, my guess is you get unreliable signal in the garage so it was borderline before the pre-amp added some additional noise which rendered many of the channels unusable. I used to put my antenna in the attic but it was choppy at times, on various channels, brought it outdoors all the while adding 100ft of dual shield coax made it 10 times better. You may want to try outdoors, don't have to go on the roof as long as you can get a LOS.

well if I'm going outside I'm going on the roof. The west side of the house is blocked by another house unless I go on the roof.

Anyone know if Bellevue has an antenna height restriction?

well if I'm going outside I'm going on the roof. The west side of the house is blocked by another house unless I go on the roof.

Anyone know if Bellevue has an antenna height restriction?

twostar
The FCC over air rules allow you to go 12ft over the peak of your roof for TV reception, among other things
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Your location is not great. There's a bunch of trees on the way to Queen Anne, all the way to 140th. You also are shooting through the gap where the Wilburton trestle is. On the other side of 405 you have a bunch of high rise buildings, and more being built. Ch's 9,11,13, 22 all have to go through the hill north of Factoria and the one south of Meydenbauer bay.
Surveys around you all show very chopped up signals. Some of the ones I put up years ago are now getting worse. Some are still okay. It's very hit or miss. All of those that worked required a preamp.

Getting your antenna outside will help. Going to a yagi style will also narrow your reception to eliminate unwanted signals. The antennas you're using have a very wide reception angle. Amplifying those signals can add a lot of unwanted noise. You obviously have some very sensitive tuners, but they need to be selective, too. Not many are, but with some patience locating your antenna, you could find that sweet spot that they like.

Dan

twostar
The FCC over air rules allow you to go 12ft over the peak of your roof for TV reception, among other things
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Your location is not great. There's a bunch of trees on the way to Queen Anne, all the way to 140th. You also are shooting through the gap where the Wilburton trestle is. On the other side of 405 you have a bunch of high rise buildings, and more being built. Ch's 9,11,13, 22 all have to go through the hill north of Factoria and the one south of Meydenbauer bay.
Surveys around you all show very chopped up signals. Some of the ones I put up years ago are now getting worse. Some are still okay. It's very hit or miss. All of those that worked required a preamp.

Getting your antenna outside will help. Going to a yagi style will also narrow your reception to eliminate unwanted signals. The antennas you're using have a very wide reception angle. Amplifying those signals can add a lot of unwanted noise. You obviously have some very sensitive tuners, but they need to be selective, too. Not many are, but with some patience locating your antenna, you could find that sweet spot that they like.

Dan

Good information to know. I figured I'd have some hills in the way. I'm hoping that I can get up on the roof and just take a look visually this weekend. Find some mounting locations and/or obstacles in the LOS of the transmitters.

Right now I've got a first gen gray hoverman home built antenna sitting next to the TV and it works great for all the major channels except King 5 (UHF 48). I'm thinking that my build has a severe dropoff that high in the UHF band. It's not rugged enough for an external mounting or even a mounting in the garage so I may build a new one to the latest designs. I think they've got some improvements to the frequency range.

I may try just putting the DB2 antenna up on the roof without the preamp since I'll be able to run the cable directly to the TV with about 30' of cable.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090402/NEWS01/704029937/0/FRONTPAGE

Here's a recent article from the Everett Herald regarding the switch to digital broadcast TV. Particulary amusing was the suggestion given to one old guy that he would have to put his antenna up 200 feet in the air.

I also noticed that KIRO was running a banner listing areas that they expect people will need to at least put up a rooftop antenna to get reception in addition to getting a converter box.

These are UHF for now, but 13 will be going back to VHF in June. However, these 3 are towards the W/NW vs. more towards the North for most local stations. The TV Fool plot above illustrates this.

Thanks for all the info and recommendations! :)

This morning, KOMO's This TV subchannel showed up as 4.2 on my Zenith DTT-900 CECB.

Yep, same on my Zenith converter box, Ch 4-2. But on my HR10-250 DirecTV/Tivo it shows up only on 38-4. And it's not yet in the Tribune News Services database (http://www.zap2it.com), so I can't get it on my newer DirecTV Receivers with off-air tuners. Hopefully KOMO will fix that soon.

I'm getting 4.2 channel data now. It's gotta be via EIT since Scheduels Direct doesn't even show the channel existing yet.

Also playing with my DB4 antenna on the roof and it appears to be getting most of the channels with full signal strength. Right now it's just laid up against the chimney. Since it seems to be working I think I'm going to move the mounting hardware from the garage onto the roof.

KCPQ has been breaking up all weekend for me. It is the same OTA and through Dish. The audio will drop out and the video will pixelate for a split second every 20-60 seconds or so.

Is anyone else having this issue?


Seeing the same thing with KCPQ-DT on FiOS TV for the past few weeks. I watch mostly FOX and it's been annoying the hell outta me! :mad:
I swear I've seen more technical glitches on KCPQ than any other station I've ever watched in my life.

I'll let our engineers know of your KCPQ problems. We haven't seen anything on our returns. Is this during all hours of the day or just during a network event?

Seeing the same thing with KCPQ-DT on FiOS TV for the past few weeks. I watch mostly FOX and it's been annoying the hell outta me! :mad:
I swear I've seen more technical glitches on KCPQ than any other station I've ever watched in my life.
I have been seeing the same problems for the past two weeks during 'Idol'. At times it is worst on Dish and and at other times bad OTA. My OTA signal is great as I can see the tower from our home. It is a quick 'drop-out' of sound mostly, with some lost of picture at times.

I'll let our engineers know of your KCPQ problems. We haven't seen anything on our returns. Is this during all hours of the day or just during a network event?

I'm not the OP, but here is what I've observed. It seems to happen during primetime network programming. I've seen it during 24, Terminator, and Dollhouse for at least 2 weeks now, maybe longer. The weekday morning news seems to be ok. I can't say for sure, but I don't think I saw it it during the NASCAR race last Saturday. I Have Verizon Fios TV and an OTA tuner in an HTPC and I see the same thing through both setups. Hope this helps.

It sounds like we are still having problems with our splicer setup that we thought was fixed. I'll pass the word, thanks for the info.

Indeed -- I saw it during Terminator this week for at least the third week in a row. Fortunately I simultaneously recorded the standard def channel, and resorted to watching that instead of the hi-def channel.

KIRO has applied for fill-in translators on channel 34 in Olympia and channel 28 in Mount Vernon.

- Trip

KIRO has applied for fill-in translators on channel 34 in Olympia and channel 28 in Mount Vernon.

- Trip

I expect we will see more of this in the future. Some of the locals have been running PSAs saying that their coverage isn't the same as with analog.

KIRO has applied for fill-in translators on channel 34 in Olympia and channel 28 in Mount Vernon.

- Trip

and I believe CH 26 in Bremerton

and I believe CH 26 in Bremerton

That's actually different. That translator exists in the analog world as well and thus could be called a standard translator I assume.

These two new applications are "fill-in" translators which are translators that are digital-only but also bound to the main station.

That is, KIRO could sell the channel 26 in Bremerton if they wanted to in the event that someone else wanted it. These new ones cannot be bought or sold, they will be licensed under the same umbrella as the KIRO-DT license. Same Facility ID number, etc.

KIRO actually has a number of analog translators floating around that I have to imagine will make the transition to digital. I have to wonder if other stations in the Seattle area will do the same sort of thing, given the terrain.

- Trip

Without an analog signal to translate, the analog translators would have to be modified to convert the received digital signal to analog, and in most cases to change the input to a different frequency. I suspect that the preferred way would be to use a digital translator, processing the signal to extract the digital stream and using that to modulate a transmitter rather than simply translating the input signal to a different frequency.

I'm just going on the info KIRO had in a press release last Friday:

here (http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2009/apr/02/kiro-changing-signal-on-friday/)

Starting Friday, KIRO 7 will begin transmitting on digital channel 26. For those who use antennas or rabbit ears to receive television for free, KIRO had been transmitting via its translator near Bremerton on channel 56.

Some people haven't been able to receive the broadcast.

To receive the new DTV transmission from KIRO, viewers will need to use a newer television capable of receiving digital signals, or an older television with a DTV converter box. As with the other Seattle stations, a VHF-UHF antenna is also required.

Viewers will need to rescan channels on Friday to ensure reception. The change does not affect cable or satellite subscribers.

I'm just going on the info KIRO had in a press release last Friday:

here (http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2009/apr/02/kiro-changing-signal-on-friday/)

Thanks for the link. Very informative.

I think I am on a different wavelength (pun completely intended) than you and rdn. I didn't mean to suggest that the 26 translator is analog only and wouldn't go digital, I meant that it's licensed differently. These two "fill-in" translators are a different type of station license which does not have its own call sign (the channel 26 is K54AO), rather they are also "KIRO-DT." These additional "fill-in" translators are probably several months away as far as FCC approval goes.

Does that clarify matters? :)

I apologize if I was confusing, this FCC stuff tends to be that way!

- Trip

Ok this is getting ridiculous. KCPQ is still breaking up both ota and through Dish! Its even worse now than it was a week ago. What is up with their transmission?

Ok this is getting ridiculous. KCPQ is still breaking up both ota and through Dish! Its even worse now than it was a week ago. What is up with their transmission?

I also have experienced OTA problems with KCPQ but suspect it may be a problem with HD network feeds since I have only observed the problems with shows like House, 24, Lie to Me, etc. I hope KCPQ can sort out the problems since it has had an excellent PQ previously.

Ok this is getting ridiculous. KCPQ is still breaking up both ota and through Dish! Its even worse now than it was a week ago. What is up with their transmission?
I watched House last night and had no problems at all. Via Comcast 113.

These two "fill-in" translators are a different type of station license which does not have its own call sign (the channel 26 is K54AO), rather they are also "KIRO-DT." These additional "fill-in" translators are probably several months away as far as FCC approval goes.

- Trip

Ah, I see what you were saying now. Interesting.

I watched House last night and had no problems at all. Via Comcast 113.

Same here with Directv HD.

Ok this is getting ridiculous. KCPQ is still breaking up both ota and through Dish! Its even worse now than it was a week ago. What is up with their transmission?

I've noticed the same through OTA. Like a previous poster mentioned, it seems to only occur during prime time shows like 24.

I watched Fringe last night and it seemed to be ok. Through Verizon, didn't check OTA.

I watched Fringe last night and it seemed to be ok. Through Verizon, didn't check OTA.

Fringe OTA exhibited many dropouts and pixelation problems for me last night. I recorded it but missed the last few minutes since Idol ran long.

I watched KCPQ via OTA last night from 8 - 10 and didn't see a single glitch. Thanks x43x.

Trip, et al:
First, I want to thank all members of this forum for all the information I have found here, especially the knowledge others have discovered imperically.

Per my reception problems: I wish other local stations would provide "east transmitting" translators like KIRO-7 has in Silverdale because I can 'see' the Channel 26 translator and as of Saturday, I have 7.1 and 7.2. I am within 0.6 miles of the "KIRO-7" tower, 0.7 miles from the "KOMO-4" tower and 0.8 miles from the "KING-5" tower but I am totally shadowed from their megawatt signals on the West side of QA Hill, under the concrete Boulevard wall. I suspect there is also a lack of signal on the West side of Magnolia and the west side of West Seattle.

I bought an old-style Channel Master 4228 and it gets me Channel 26 (KIRO-"7") from my deck on a temporary mast at 8 feet elevation -- it's line of site and the 900 watts ERP offers plenty of signal to me (I am aware its not Dolby 5.1 and only 480).

I also have a Winegard HD-9095P on a test mast pointed East at the Network towers (no signal) and when the weather improves, I will shove it up to see if I can get them, probably with a rotor so I can hunt for "9, 11 and 22" as well.

Here's the kicker - oddly, although that antenna is currently several feet below my roofline, I receive a perfect digital KONG-16, and as near as I can tell, KONG's transmitting antenna is on the KING-5 tower! I'll keep you posted. This will be fun!
Jim in Seattle

Trip,

Yes? :D

- Trip

I watched KCPQ via OTA last night from 8 - 10 and didn't see a single glitch. Thanks x43x.

The Friday and Monday KCPQ programs had almost no glitches for me so I would assume that the problems have been fixed and the remaining glitches I have are reception problems.

Also I haven't encountered any problems with KCTSHD programming for a while so I guess those problems have been ironed out as well.

Thanks.

Hello Jim:

I'm glad that I and the other folks here were able to help you out.

You might call the local stations other than KIRO and tell them of your experience and how much it helped. Maybe they'll be encouraged to take some action to help you out.

Given that you're so close, though, you might consider trying aiming the antenna more randomly. Perhaps you can get a weak reflection off of a distant building or mountain. It could explain why you see KONG and nothing else.

- Trip

Trip,
Once I get my antennas elevated I should be able to receive 4.1 and 4.2 (38 / ABC) because on my low test-mast my TV 'sensed' the signal as well as 9.1 / 9.2 (remaining on low band 9 / PBS) although there currently isn't enough for a lock on either one. As I mentioned before, channel 16.1 / 16.2 (31) is on the channel 5 (48 / NBC) tower, transmitting with 700kw erp whereas digital 5 has an erp of a megawatt, so I have hope for it. I'm glad you mentioned the possibilty of catching a signal reflection because I was considering trying to find a bounce. If I am unsuccessful I'll contact the Chief Engineer of each station and suggest they install translators similar to 7 (26 / CBS) in Silverdale. It might be worth mentioning the loss of reception and the lengths I have go thru to regain them to the FCC as well.
I have had many communications with the Chief Engineer at KVOS 12 (35) in Bellingham, WA after they dropped analog and I lost their signal on a ten-bar cut-to-12 VHF yagi. Using the online "Antenna Optimizer" website, I designed and built a 15 bar cut-to-35 Yagi and balun, but I have yet to shove it into the air. He was so impressed with it, he asked if he could have its' design for his personal use! Photos of my "Project 35" are below.
Jim

So Jim I'm confused.. Are you in Silverdale attempting to receive Seattle stations? Or are you in Seattle using a high gain antenna to receive Seattle stations while your antenna is aimed North?

Kelly,
I am located 0.7 miles west and two blocks south of your QA transmitter, but I am shadowed from your signal by the boulevard retaining wall. Using a Winegard HD-9095P (photo below) mounted very low on a test-mast, my TV momentarily 'sensed' your signal, but at the antenna's current height there isn't enough to establish a lock. I have no signal from 5,7,11 or 22. Aimed at KIRO's 900 watt translator (K54AO on channel 26) in Silverdale, I have a perfect 7.1 / 7.2 but its line-of-sight. Oddly, I am able to receive KONG 16, which I think shares the KING 5 tower. I think when my antenna is raised about 20 feet above its current height I should receive 4 and 5, and possibly 7 from the QA towers. I'm glad to hear any recommendations and thanks in advance,
Jim

Gotcha Jim. I don't work for KOMO anymore, but got stuck with the handle..

I suspect your problem is not actually low signal, but too much or too many stray reflections called "multipath". Multipath is very destructive to the DTV signal as seen by the receiver. Remember, your "signal strength" meter is not signal level but signal quality. The antenna you have there is fairly high gain for being that close to the Queen Anne Hill transmission sites. Your tuner may also be overloaded with the high field strength where you live.

You may want to try a little experiment.. Take a large straightened out paperclip or piece of straight wire and insert into the center of the F connector on your receiver. Then rescan your channels. If the QA stations appear with even marginal "signal strength" according to your meter, then you've found the problem.

For close-in locations, a omni-directional non-amplified antenna would be best. I've done tests with the marine style 'UFO' looking omni antenna available at West Marine or alike. Just don't buy the amplified version. Keep your receipt so if it doesn't work well you can return the antenna.

Kelly,
I have tried a variety of UHF antennas both indoor and outdoor and I am certain this is a lack of signal issue. There is a 60' high concrete retaining wall holding up the west side of the hill between the towers and me and I'm under it. I'm in a hole. Back in 1984 to receive VHF TV I had to use a 50' telescopic mast to elevate my Ernst Hardware Seattlite antenna (I think Finco manufactured it) high enough into the air to catch enough signal to overcome noise (multipath). Two years ago a windstorm snapped a guy wire and the works came down and since the 80's, neighbors have removed many concealing trees so I doubt I could get away with the same height, today. If somehow, I run into an overload issue I have a Commercial Grade attenuator (resistive, non reactive) that can knock a signal down in steps from -1 to -160db. On another note, I also had a Finco FM-5 ten element yagi on a seperate mast (what a monster) and I received Channel 6 from Portland, Oregon and clean FM Stereo and also their sidecarrier channel from Eugene, Oregon -- if I cared to listen to basketball games at Lane Community College -- NOT! Still, that's the better part of 300 miles and my record for FM DXing. Thanks for the suggestion and best regards,
Jim

Listers,
The title may be confusing but if you have read my earlier posts I now receive 7.1 / 7.2 from a low power translator on chanel 26. If I shove my antenna into the air and I establish a useable signal from the main transmitter on channel 39, how will my TV respond to that new signal? Will it ignore the new signal because it already has '7s', will it replace the 'old' '7s' with the new signal or will it do something else? Thanks in advance,
Jim in Seattle

Kelly,
I have tried a variety of UHF antennas both indoor and outdoor and I am certain this is a lack of signal issue. There is a 60' high concrete retaining wall holding up the west side of the hill between the towers and me and I'm under it. I'm in a hole. Back in 1984 to receive VHF TV I had to use a 50' telescopic mast to elevate my Ernst Hardware Seattlite antenna (I think Finco manufactured it) high enough into the air to catch enough signal to overcome noise (multipath). Two years ago a windstorm snapped a guy wire and the works came down and since the 80's, neighbors have removed many concealing trees so I doubt I could get away with the same height, today. If somehow, I run into an overload issue I have a Commercial Grade attenuator (resistive, non reactive) that can knock a signal down in steps from -1 to -160db. On another note, I also had a Finco FM-5 ten element yagi on a seperate mast (what a monster) and I received Channel 6 from Portland, Oregon and clean FM Stereo and also their sidecarrier channel from Eugene, Oregon -- if I cared to listen to basketball games at Lane Community College -- NOT! Still, that's the better part of 300 miles and my record for FM DXing. Thanks for the suggestion and best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

I guess my only final comment is that being so close to QA Hill, line of sight shouldn't be that much of an issue. There should be ample field strength even with a concrete wall in the way to get a signal, albeit even if a reflection. All that antenna gain in an attempt to pull in distant stations could be overloading the front end of your receiver. In high field strength areas just having high gain antennas in the air but not connected can cause parasitic re-radiation and multipath to your connected receiver.

A resistive pad, especially a selective one, is typically not very bandwidth-linear. I'll bet if you swept your pad across a 6Mhz swath at say, 600Mhz center frequency, you would not see a very flat response across the 6Mhz.

Also if you're using passive splitters to split or combine antennas, I suggest using only splitters with response out to 2Ghz and make sure all unused spigots are terminated with 75 ohm termination resistors.

I'd be willing to bet that if you were able to look at the signal from your receivers perspective via a spectrum analyzer, the band would look like a mess. Not noisy, but rather the what should be straight horizontal flat tops of each DTV signal would appear like little roller coasters.

Good Luck!

Kelly

Tonight, I noticed that both Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy are widescreen again but neither looks like it's HD.

Tonight, I noticed that both Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy are widescreen again but neither looks like it's HD.

They were only in 4:3 for a few days. They look pretty good to me, but with my eyes I can't really tell--good quality 480i looks fine (I'm nearly deaf in one ear and don't really appreciate DD5.1 either).

I see that KCPQ now has widescreen news broadcasts. I don't think it is HD, however.

I'm going to put a couple of question in one post-
1.Has anyone tried a discone antenna in my area? I'm at 20th Ave S. and Lucile on Beacon Hill.
I plan on making one with 12-16 elements 435mm long (isn't KIRO going back to VHF?) I have a homemade bow-tie antenna sitting in my livingroom picking up 4,5,7,9,11,13,16,20,22,28,31 but a few of those are close to the edge and drop out a lot. The CM4221 on my roof is aimed for best channel 9 reception but I can't get 31 or 28 in that location.
2. What generation are tuners at these days? My old Divco Fussion5 in much better at picking up stations then my Pany TH-42PZ77U - which I think is newer.
3. What's the hold up getting HD OTA STB in North America? Asia and Europe have duel tuner PVRs already (for about $250).

Enjoy the sunshine,
-Rick

3. What's the hold up getting HD OTA STB in North America? Asia and Europe have duel tuner PVRs already (for about $250).



There is a OTA HD STB: DTVPal DVR http://www.dtvpal.com (click on DTVPAL Dvr).
They are charging $250 + shipping & tax.

There have been some problems with it, but most of them seem to have been fixed with the latest firmware.

Here is the AVS Forum thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071
The first post has all the information about the receiver.