Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 31

rdn

04-22-09, 12:27 AM

I'm going to put a couple of question in one post-
1.Has anyone tried a discone antenna in my area? I'm at 20th Ave S. and Lucile on Beacon Hill.
I plan on making one with 12-16 elements 435mm long (isn't KIRO going back to VHF?) I have a homemade bow-tie antenna sitting in my livingroom picking up 4,5,7,9,11,13,16,20,22,28,31 but a few of those are close to the edge and drop out a lot. The CM4221 on my roof is aimed for best channel 9 reception but I can't get 31 or 28 in that location.
2. What generation are tuners at these days? My old Divco Fussion5 in much better at picking up stations then my Pany TH-42PZ77U - which I think is newer.
3. What's the hold up getting HD OTA STB in North America? Asia and Europe have duel tuner PVRs already (for about $250).

Enjoy the sunshine,
-Rick

I'm not sure what you mean by a discone with 12-16 elements. A discone is essentially a single-element, vertically polarized omnidirectional antenna. I think television broadcast is horizontally polarized (at least it was at one time).

My Directv HR20 (and my HR21 with the AM21 add-on) will record OTA with dual tuners (in addition to the two satellite tuners). I also have a HDHomeRun networked dual tuner which I can access from Mac, Linux and Windows computers. Tivo (and possibly others) makes a standalone HD PVR.

rdn

04-22-09, 12:31 AM

Doesn't look like anything is HD, just widescreen SD. Any idea when they made the switch?

That's what I thought. KOMO looks better and I the last I heard, their news is still SD.

It must have been fairly recently, but I usually watch KING or KOMO for news and just stumbled on this one.

Ricky Mac

04-22-09, 11:08 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by a discone with 12-16 elements. A discone is essentially a single-element, vertically polarized omnidirectional antenna. I think television broadcast is horizontally polarized (at least it was at one time).

I meant a discone like this -
http://www.antennawarehouse.com/images/VHF-UHF_Discone.jpg

But yes, that would seem to be vertically aligned. I may try it nevertheless.

OK. Yes, there are HD PVR options. And it seems that there are a couple in the $250 range (without a subscription). But what about an inexpensive stb in HD - HDMI (with audio) would be nice? Is it because they wouldn't be covered by the coupon and the confusion would be too much for the American public?

trenda

04-22-09, 02:05 PM

allen98311

04-22-09, 02:26 PM

TVGOS Seattle

Anyone else lost their TVGOS this week? Wondering if there is a problem at Kiro?

I've stopped getting guide updates on my digital TV Sony KDL-40V4100 and my recorder Sony DHG-HDD250 -both were using 39-0 as a host channel.
OTA -no cable

I have TVGOS data out to Sunday, and the receiver was reset yesterday and found the TVGOS data again.

I don't have any data for 4-1, 4-2. 5-2, 11-1, 13-1, or 13-2. I have never had TVGOS data for those channels.

I have a DTVPal DVR.

zyland

04-22-09, 06:46 PM

OK. Yes, there are HD PVR options. And it seems that there are a couple in the $250 range (without a subscription). But what about an inexpensive stb in HD - HDMI (with audio) would be nice? Is it because they wouldn't be covered by the coupon and the confusion would be too much for the American public?
Check out the official AVS HDTV STB forum

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095

They have a list of devices that you might be interested in.

The "Coupon Eligible Converter Box" (CEBC) program had a very narrow focus, i.e. reducing the cost of the digital transition for those who had an analog TV and relied on NTSC over the air for their TV. So, advanced features like HDMI or recording are disallowed for eligible converter boxes.

rdn

04-22-09, 07:27 PM

I meant a discone like this -
http://www.antennawarehouse.com/images/VHF-UHF_Discone.jpg

So did I. It is basically a wideband dipole (one element). The rods in the disc are all tied together at the feed point, as are the rods in the cone. Omnidirectional horizontally polarized antennas aren't trivial and I don't know of any which work over a wide bandwidth such as the VHF/UHF spectrum.

tschall

04-23-09, 06:06 PM

Greetings:

This coming Monday morning, April 27th, KCTS will have our VHF, physical channel 9, digital transmitter on the air for testing from 3AM to 5AM. KCTS will leave their existing channel 41 digital transmitter on the air during this time. KCTS will psip the VHF signal as channel 9-4 (KCTS-9D) 9-1, 9-2 & 9-3 will continue to broadcast on our existing UHF, physical channel 41, transmitter.

Also, KSTW, physical channel 11, will have their digital transmitter on for testing from 3AM to 6AM. Both stations towers are located less than 200 feet from each other on Captial Hill in Seattle.

This may be your final chance to test reception of both stations VHF signals simultaneously before the transition occurs on June 12th.

I'd be happy to answer any questions regarding the tests that I can.

Tim Schall
KCTS TV

tschall

04-24-09, 04:15 PM

scottm32768

04-24-09, 08:15 PM

tai4de2

04-26-09, 07:39 PM

Did something change with KCPQ this week? Sunday it was working fine, but for the last several days I've been unable to get a picture. I was getting a signal at about 60 according to the Tivo signal test, but now it won't even reliably stay at 30. I'm not sure what those numbers really mean, though. Other than 60+ works great, and below 50 is a no go...

As of today (4/26/09) I continue to receive KCPQ-DT and KCPQ-DT2 without signal problems. I'm using an HDHomeRun, and I am in Kirkland.

Did you accidentally bump or nudge your antenna or something like that?

zyland

04-27-09, 07:54 AM

tschall

04-27-09, 08:13 AM

Location: Education Hill Redmond
antenna: ChannelMaster 4221
tuner: ChannelMaster 7000
tuner: Mitsubishi WD-62525 built-in tuner

analog 9 - no signal
analog 11 - no signal
digital 9-1 - KCTS HD1 test pattern (HD)
digital 9-2 - KCTS HD1 test pattern (SD)
digital 9-3 - Create
digital 9-4 - no signal
digital 11-1 - no signal

on both my ATSC tuners, I got nothing between 4:20am and 4:50am
These same combinations had good results during the last test.

You wouldn't have gotten an analog signal because they weren't on but to get neither digital is certainly odd. I got calls from Bellevue, Woodinville, Tacoma and Vancouver Island that both signals were being received so I know they were on. I plan on having KCTS up a couple of more times before the transition so perhaps an antenna check is in order.

Ricky Mac

04-27-09, 03:24 PM

tschall

04-27-09, 04:01 PM

I woke up at 4:30 and rescanned.
I was able to received the 9.4 test just fine.
I'm not sure about 11. Was that just on 11.1?

I'm at 20th Ave. S. and Lenora. I'm a special case. I've always thought I should receive from the KCTS tower just fine but it's always been a chore. My CM4221 has to be positioned so it looks like it's falling off my roof. Yesterday a came up with the hypothesis that one of Seattle main transmission line towers might be in the way. It's only about 2000 feet to the north. Google Earth confirmed it when I plotted my position to the KCTS tower this morning.

-Rick

Rick:

I certainly appreciate you and everyone that "took a sniff" at the signal last night. As far as your antenna goes, at that range I doubt that the transmission line tower has anything to do with it especially being 2000 feet away. I can't help but wonder if one of two things is happening at your location. Either you flat have to much signal (Which can be even more problematic than not enough signal.) or if it is all way above you.

Without going into a long winded explanation of "close in prorogation characteristics of broadcast antennas" they tend to have outputs that can be very concentrated and all the signal will be in a "bundle" that goes right over the top of you and never gets down to where you are. Also, overdriving the front end of a consumer grade tuner is very easy to do at that range. You might try screwing one of those little 'F' connector attenuators, say about 12 - 15 db worth, into the input of the tuner and see if it makes a difference.

At any rate, I'm glad that things worked out for you and you were able to get the picture. FWIW: Yes, channel 11 was up with just color bars as channel 11.1. KCTS9, chose to put it on a wholly separate sub-channel and leave the existing transmitter up so that it was obvious which signal was which.

Tim Schall
KCTS TV

Jim in Seattle

04-27-09, 05:38 PM

Listers:
From an earlier posting, I said I built a 15 bar "cut to 35" yagi to receive KVOS 12.1 and I tested it this weekend. First, I pushed an 'old-style' Channel Master 4228 (8-bay) into the sky about 15 feet above my roofline on my testing-mast. I used a 50 foot length of RG-6 and fed the coax directly to my receiver. I was pleased to receive KVOS for the first time and the strongest signal was 32.

Next, I tried my home-brew "Project-35" and raised it to the same level on the same coax. It also sensed KVOS and the signal strength was 65! Not bad for 75 miles away, going thru trees, houses and a hill. I lowered the antenna and watched the signal drop to about 18, 6 feet over my roofline -- plenty of signal to work with, then I ran the coax thru my coaxial switch from Radio Shack and the signal vanished.

Here's my question: does anyone have a recommendation of a Make and Model coax switch that is appropriate for UHF? Thanks in advance, Jim
(attached are photos of the two antennas)(I hope)

Jim in Seattle

04-27-09, 05:52 PM

Ricky Mac

04-27-09, 07:09 PM

Rick:

I certainly appreciate you and everyone that "took a sniff" at the signal last night. As far as your antenna goes, at that range I doubt that the transmission line tower has anything to do with it especially being 2000 feet away. I can't help but wonder if one of two things is happening at your location. Either you flat have to much signal (Which can be even more problematic than not enough signal.) or if it is all way above you.

I'm 4.5 miles away, due south, from KCTS. One big high-voltage electric tower is directly north 2000ft in-between KCTS and me. So my thinking was all that naked steel is scattering the signal.
Another potential problem is the VA Hospital. Its 10 story structure is also directly in the way (I figure the buildings top to be at ~450 ft above sea level). I calculated a few years ago that it wasn't it the way. But I could have been wrong.
And then there's Boeing Field with the airplanes...
This mornings test was with a homemade 2 bay bowtie placed 15" in front of a 30 inch reflector. The plan was to move the reflector and see if it did anything to the VHF 9 signal. But I was too tired and just went back to bed. I even forgot to check the signal meter.

-Rick

DanKurts

04-29-09, 02:07 AM

Tim,
You mentioned potential overloading the front end of our receivers. What does that 'look' like on our screens? About three weeks ago my set 'sensed' 9.1 but I cannot get a lock on your signal. I am completely blocked by QA Hill and I doubt I have an overload situation because I have tried a variety of small indoor antennas as well as an 8-bay Channel Master and a Winegard 9095 (33 element corner reflector). Thanks in advance,
Jim

Jim
Overloading looks exactly like a weak signal. You're in a bad area. I grew up on the Hill, and have done many surveys there. It's very tough because the signals are basically going over your head. Then you add in the Wall below Highland Drive, and the signal is a mess. It's not a gain problem. There are strong signals that are splattering off everything around you, and causing all kinds of problems, even down the side of the hill. When I look at the signal, it's similar to viewing it on an oscilloscope. If the waveshape is fairly flat, you're okay. On the Hill, it gets all chopped up, like a roller coaster or worse. Tuners just can't lock on. Playing around with various flavors of antennas might get you the right combination, but realize that whatever you do, start with at least a 20db attenuator, or two 10db's, so you can at least get in the ball park. With a 4228, or large ones, try 30 or even 40db. I had a little Rat Shack yagi on my folks old house, 10th & Ruffner, and had to knock it down 35db, and it was still +15db at the set !

For a switch, Rat Shack makes a small indoor A/B remote switch for about $35. Even has discrete codes.

Dan

Jim in Seattle

04-29-09, 10:04 PM

DanKurts

04-30-09, 04:32 AM

Dan,
Thanks for the comeback. Years ago, I did antenna proofs for 770 KIRO AM so if you have actually done VHF OR UHF surveys around QA, I feel your pain! LOL!

I know exactly where your Folks live and I can see reception problems there. You know where I am, related to the retaining wall and I'm sure the signals are right above me. There are no useable 'echos' here.

If overloading "looks like a weak signal" does that mean my receiver will not detect ANY signal at all - OR - does it mean it will detect and it reports a 'new channel' but it cannot sustain a lock to produce a picture?

Considering all the indoor and outdoor antenna variations I have tried, I am certain I have a lack of signal and since you know the wall, trust me: I am genuinely shadowed: there is no view of any sunrise here until almost noon!

You may have read an earlier posting of mine where I wrote: about twenty five years back I actually conquered my location using a 40 foot telescopic mast to get enough 'direct' (analog VHF) signal to overcome all the multipath ... (S to N ratio).

My next plan will be to shove the smallest possible antenna as far up in the air as I can. As far as attenuation, my Rad Shack 5-input (antenna) switch-box worked OK on VHF but it is deadly to UHF signals, which seems to be a potentially good plan (per other suggestions here) assuming I capture something to work with! Thanks again,
Jim

Jim
Overloading causes the tuner the same basic problems as a very weak signal. Just isn't enough there to work with. Kind of like listening to a radio at very low volume, or at full volume and distortion. Either way, you just can't make it out. Since your tuner's strength indicator is not really reading actual level, it gets even more vague for aiming and trying to figure out what's really happening. Resulting indicator numbers could be the same either way. I highly doubt you have weak signal. It's more just plain ugly. The HD signal is spread over 6mhz. It all has to get there at the same time, and within about 4 or 5db. What I've found where you are is it looks like huge peaks and valleys on the scope. Digital tuners and decoders are working like gates, on/off. If things get too wild and crazy, level wise, it just can't lock on or make sense of it, and just thinks it's all noise.

If you want to go small antenna and high, then use a 4221 Channel Master.
It will work well enough for all, even ch9 & 11. Ch13 will require a separate small antenna and a ch13 Jointenna. Almost any antenna pointed to Bremerton will work fine from there. You could mount it just above the roof. And make sure all those guy wires are well secured, your wire is plastic coated and the antenna is well grounded.

If your antenna switch is giving you trouble with UHF, get rid of it. What you don't realize, or can't really see, is what it might be doing to all your reception. A good one should be transparent. If you just have to have it, then do all your testing without, initially. When everything works, then add it back in, if you must, but I bet you'll leave it out. Properly done, you shouldn't need a switch.

Last, I applaud your tenacity. What your attempting is like brain surgery, blind ! But hey. You never know. Look at the success Gene Wilder had in Young Fronkunshteen !!
Dan

Jim in Seattle

04-30-09, 04:32 PM

DanKurts wrote:
Jim

If you want to go small antenna and high, then use a 4221 Channel Master.
It will work well enough for all, even ch9 & 11. Ch13 will require a separate small antenna and a ch13 Jointenna. Almost any antenna pointed to Bremerton will work fine from there.

If your antenna switch is giving you trouble with UHF, get rid of it. What you don't realize, or can't really see, is what it might be doing to all your reception. A good one should be transparent. If you just have to have it, then do all your testing without, initially. When everything works, then add it back in, if you must, but I bet you'll leave it out. Properly done, you shouldn't need a switch.

Last, I applaud your tenacity. What your attempting is like brain surgery, blind ! But hey. You never know. Look at the success Gene Wilder had in Young Fronkunshteen !!
Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan,
Thanks for the comeback. I have no problems with channel 13 on any antenna, and I currently receive KIRO 7's translator (26) on a CM-4228 at a signal level of 51 on a foggy morning. The next test will be to stack two 4228s to see how much more signal I can get from the Silverdale translator. By the way, the Chief Engineer of KIRO told me they will be raising its output power very soon. My "Project 35" gets KVOS 12 (35) at a signal strength of 65 on my test-mast, but I intend to permanently install it another ten feet higher than its current height. I receive KBTC 28 (27) strongly from the backside on the same Yagi. That covers west, north and south and considering their high signal levels I should be able to combine those antennas on one coax.

So far, my receiver briefly detected KOMO 4 (38) and I had a good picture from KONG 16 (31) on a Winegard HD 9095P at about rooftop level. So, 4,5 and 7 (main transmitter) are my focus now and I happen to have a CM 4221 per your recommendation! Hopefully, that will take care of East northeast. Then, KCTS 9, KSTW 11 and KMYQ 22 (25) will be next. That's East southeast. When possible, I prefer to not combine antennas on a single coax so that's why I wanted a 4-way coax switch. I may have to settle for a three-way, if I can find a good quality unit. I have a very old (probably American made) two-way switch that is transparent to UHF in situ now. On the other hand, I may have to use an antenna rotor for the eastern channels. Oh, and its possible I'll have to learn Spanish as my set has detected KUNS 50 (51)!
Jim
PS That was a terrific movie - I especially liked the knockers!

Jim in Seattle

04-30-09, 08:17 PM

DanKurts wrote:

Playing around with various flavors of antennas might get you the right combination, but realize that whatever you do, start with at least a 20db attenuator, or two 10db's, so you can at least get in the ball park. With a 4228, or large ones, try 30 or even 40db.
Dan
----------------------------------------
Dan,
From another 'string' on this forum Rabbit73 offered the following link and I think I am now beginning to understand the complexities of digital signal reception better. It will be the basis of testing using my attenuator - ironically, it's the same method I used to establish OTA VHF here 25+ years ago. As you said, it's not only about signal strength. www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

In a prior entry I mentioned to Kelly from KOMO I have a commercial grade attenuator I used for OTA VHF TV with success but he is sceptical it will work on UHF frequencies and quite frankly, I also have my doubts. There's one way to find out and I'll report my results. An attached photo is below.
Jim in Seattle

PS Just like the ancient top-quality 2-way coax switch I am using, this doesn't have a manufacturer's ID either. Bizarre!

Kelly From KOMO

05-01-09, 12:42 PM

DanKurts wrote:

In a prior entry I mentioned to Kelly from KOMO I have a commercial grade attenuator I used for OTA VHF TV with success but he is sceptical it will work on UHF frequencies and quite frankly, I also have my doubts. There's one way to find out and I'll report my results. An attached photo is below.
Jim in Seattle

PS Just like the ancient top-quality 2-way coax switch I am using, this doesn't have a manufacturer's ID either. Bizarre!

Jim,

Other than some of their antennas, I've found most Radio Shack hardware to be a problem when used in reception of DTV transmissions. As you've noticed, the RS coaxial switches don't pass the UHF band very well, and their RG-6 coaxial cable has extremely poor shielding which would not work well in such a high field strength as where you live. All RG6 is not created equal. Stick with Belden or whatever brand of RG6 sold at Home Depot if more convenient. Again stay away from RS RG6.

With the aforementioned in mind, another thing to check is the cable you're using. RG-6 cable with crimp "F" style connectors is important, especially located so close to high power DTV stations. Old style "twin lead" flat cable with adaptor baluns will not work at all at UHF frequencies and have been known to cause multipath from the receiver perspective. RG59U coax is also no good to a lesser extent for two reasons; one is RG59 is not well shielded (multipath) and does not have the bandwidth capabilities required for reliable DTV reception.

Jim in Seattle

05-01-09, 02:24 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:
Jim,

Other than some of their antennas, I've found most Radio Shack hardware to be a problem when used in reception of DTV transmissions. As you've noticed, the RS coaxial switches don't pass the UHF band very well, and their RG-6 coaxial cable has extremely poor shielding which would not work well in such a high field strength as where you live. All RG6 is not created equal. Stick with Belden or whatever brand of RG6 sold at Home Depot if more convenient. Again stay away from RS RG6.

With the aforementioned in mind, another thing to check is the cable you're using. RG-6 cable with crimp "F" style connectors is important, especially located so close to high power DTV stations. ...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly,
Your timing is impeccable as I planned to go to Radio Shack this afternoon for more coax. Thank you!
Jim

rdn

05-01-09, 06:11 PM

Jim,

Other than some of their antennas, I've found most Radio Shack hardware to be a problem when used in reception of DTV transmissions. As you've noticed, the RS coaxial switches don't pass the UHF band very well, and their RG-6 coaxial cable has extremely poor shielding which would not work well in such a high field strength as where you live. All RG6 is not created equal. Stick with Belden or whatever brand of RG6 sold at Home Depot if more convenient. Again stay away from RS RG6.

With the aforementioned in mind, another thing to check is the cable you're using. RG-6 cable with crimp "F" style connectors is important, especially located so close to high power DTV stations. Old style "twin lead" flat cable with adaptor baluns will not work at all at UHF frequencies and have been known to cause multipath from the receiver perspective. RG59U coax is also no good to a lesser extent for two reasons; one is RG59 is not well shielded (multipath) and does not have the bandwidth capabilities required for reliable DTV reception.

Err, shouldn't compression connectors be favored over crimp? Although a crimp connection can be done well (particularly if a hex crimp tool is used), a compression connection is much more repeatable plus there is some degree of weatherproofing (but not all that much) with compression fittings. I use a $15 DataShark tool from Home Depot.

Some RG59 is well shielded, some is not, but if you are going to buy new cable, the slight extra cost for RG6 is worth it.

Kelly From KOMO

05-01-09, 06:29 PM

Yes compression F connectors are nice, especially when used outdoors but given the cost I've found that at least crimp style are just as good electrically and from an impedance perspective. What one wants to avoid is those screw-on threaded shield F connectors. Over (not much) time moisture and crud can effect the shield and center conductor connection.

And you're also correct about spending a little more on RG6 coax. I prefer RG6 from West Penn, but Belden is good too.

Someone E-mailed me via my website the other day with similar reception issues to Jim, but a little further away. After some Q&A as to the installation, I determined they were using 150 ohm "twin lead" under a window to a balun, then a 10' piece of RG59 to a 900mHz active splitter/amp. They weren't very pleased with my response to throw out everything but the antenna and set-top box, and they would have to drill a hole somewhere to feed the coax into the house. Funny thing was that after replacing the twin lead with Belden RG6, dumping the splitter amp and doing a little antenna aiming, they received all but one of the West Tiger Mt. stations.

Jim in Seattle

05-02-09, 11:02 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:
Jim,
... All RG6 is not created equal. Stick with Belden or whatever brand of RG6 sold at Home Depot if more convenient. Again stay away from RS RG6. ...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly,
My research gets me to this Belden coax as their best for my application. What's your take on it? I hope its OK to link to a commercial site here and if not, my appologies in advance. Thanks,
Jim
http://www.broadbandutopia.com/belden7915a.html

Kelly From KOMO

05-04-09, 10:23 AM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:
Kelly,
My research gets me to this Belden coax as their best for my application. What's your take on it? I hope its OK to link to a commercial site here and if not, my appologies in advance. Thanks,
Jim
http://www.broadbandutopia.com/belden7915a.html

Hi Jim,

Yes the Belden 7915A RG-6 coax works well.

As a reminder too, make sure any passive splitters are rated at least to 2gHz. and no unterminated or unused spigots.

The idea is to keep the bandwidth pipe from leaking (good shielding), and optimum flow (bandwidth).

ManMachine

05-05-09, 06:32 PM

I'm in Mill Creek and reception is pretty poor. Wonder if it's the antenna issue? I bought a converter box from Fred Meyer, Philco model.

Kelly From KOMO

05-05-09, 06:55 PM

I'm in Mill Creek and reception is pretty poor. Wonder if it's the antenna issue? I bought a converter box from Fred Meyer, Philco model.

Need more information. What sort of antenna are you using? Outdoor? Rabbit Ears? When you say pretty poor, what channels can you get?

ManMachine

05-06-09, 05:45 PM

I use rabbit ears. It's a 2 story house. On the 2nd floor.

I pulled the rabbit ears all the way out. Will try again. I can't get the main ABC, CBS or Fox stations.

Kelly From KOMO

05-06-09, 06:21 PM

I use rabbit ears. It's a 2 story house. On the 2nd floor.

I pulled the rabbit ears all the way out. Will try again. I can't get the main ABC, CBS or Fox stations.

Honestly Rabbit Ear antennas are pretty useless for reliable DTV reception. Sometimes if you're lucky, nothing ever moves in the room and you locate the antenna to just the right location, one can get a DTV station or two. Remember, unlike the old days of analog TV where one could put up with some snow or ghosts in the picture, DTV is either there or not. When the picture and sound are there, it looks/sounds really good!

Most Rabbit Ear antennas have two parts; the longer extendable rods, and small metal loop on the back. Most of the major TV stations in Seattle operate their DTV channels in the UHF band. That little loop that you don't extend is the UHF antenna. The extendable rods are the VHF portion. Sometimes moving the long rods around make a difference in UHF reception, mainly because you're really only causing small signal reflections from the metal rods toward the loop.

The best bet is to install a medium-gain VHF/UHF antenna with RG-6 coax connecting the antenna to your set-top box. Placing the antenna in an attic is no substitute for having the antenna as high as possible outside. If you go that route, make sure to provide a good ground connection for safety sake.

You can then aim your antenna, usually splitting the difference between Queen Anne and Capitol Hill to solidly get most of the DTV stations for free!

Good luck!

Kelly

chickentender

05-07-09, 02:46 PM

Greeting all... this thread is even mightier than when I saw it last.

Question here, largely for Dan K, and Don and Kelly at Komo. I was on the forum a few times back in mid 2003 through early 2005. Went through quite the ordeal back then on the roof of a house (duplexes on bottom of sunset hill overlooking north magnolia and the entry to the Ballard Locks) that I've since moved 4 doors West of. All the problems were solved for the most part there and at the time there was far less info/discussion/knowledge about KOMO's shadow stretching NNW... I see that since then quite a few people have scratched their heads over that one... that one, KOMO, being the only problem I never could solve whatsoever.

At any rate, in the new duplex here the game is the same even though I'm slightly lower, I actually have fewer obstructions. I can stand in the back yard and watch the queen anne towers blink from top to bottom... Still, KOMO doesn't even register on the STB.. nothing. Same as before. I understood that KOMO will mount the DTV antenna on top the tower and that this *should* fix the 'shadow' problem. I'm assuming this hasn't happened yet. Have any changes to the the transmitter happend since late 2004 that would in any way affect this issue in my location (and if you google it you'll see that I am pretty much right along the same line that, still unfornately, of the Shilshole apartment buildings that DanKurtz and Don have mentioned quite a while back.

Any changes? THoughts? Witty anecdotes?

I'm disconnecting cable again because we simply don't watch enough tv, and when we do it's mostly network or pbs anyhow. But Lost is the one show I can't do without! :) Kinda discouraged this hasn't changed in 4 or 5 years, particularly since the towers are all next to one another on QA, particularly since KIRO and KING come in perfectly. My analogue reception of KOMO is stellar btw. So very strange.

I'm located at .. check it out by location.
Lat 47.668461
Long -122.401643

CHeers! Still an awesome forum!

Kevin

Jim in Seattle

05-07-09, 04:01 PM

chickentender wrote:

I'm located at .. check it out by location.
Lat 47.668461
Long -122.401643

CHeers! Still an awesome forum!

Kevin
--------------------------------------------
Kevin,
I used Mapquest and it says you are about 5 miles East of Port Townsend, in the middle of the shipping lanes in Admiralty Inlet! I'm not sure if the link below will retain the coordinance.
Jim in Seattle : )

http://geography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=geography&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mapquest.com%2Fmaps%2Flatlong.adp

Moonus

05-07-09, 05:31 PM

Hey Jim, you need to scroll down a bit on the mapquest page. I'm guessing that you plugged the numbers into the degrees/minutes/seconds portion. I tried the numbers in the decimal values section, just below the degrees/minutes/seconds portion, and got an address at 34th and NW Market street, which I think is close to where chickentender is (or maybe at least where he'd like to be).

chickentender wrote:

I'm located at .. check it out by location.
Lat 47.668461
Long -122.401643

CHeers! Still an awesome forum!

Kevin
--------------------------------------------
Kevin,
I used Mapquest and it says you are about 5 miles East of Port Townsend, in the middle of the shipping lanes in Admiralty Inlet! I'm not sure if the link below will retain the coordinance.
Jim in Seattle : )

http://geography.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=geography&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mapquest.com%2Fmaps%2Flatlong.adp

Jim in Seattle

05-07-09, 05:56 PM

Moonus wrote:
Hey Jim, you need to scroll down a bit on the mapquest page. I'm guessing that you plugged the numbers into the degrees/minutes/seconds portion. I tried the numbers in the decimal values section, just below the degrees/minutes/seconds portion, and got an address ...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Moonus,
Bingo, that's what I did! Aaaack! Thanks for clearing that up.
Jim : )

Brianmur

05-07-09, 06:41 PM

I'm not the OP, but here is what I've observed. It seems to happen during primetime network programming. I've seen it during 24, Terminator, and Dollhouse for at least 2 weeks now, maybe longer. The weekday morning news seems to be ok. I can't say for sure, but I don't think I saw it it during the NASCAR race last Saturday. I Have Verizon Fios TV and an OTA tuner in an HTPC and I see the same thing through both setups.

We only watch digital OTA and I've been seeing audio dropouts and video freezes in prime time programming (Lie to Me, House, Fringe, Dollhouse) for KCPQ Fox going back to at least early April, maybe March. The audio dropouts don't affect picture at all but they are long enough and frequent enough to render the programs unwatchable. This week's Lie to Me was the worst I've seen the problem with frequent audio dropouts and adding the worst video freeze and stutter I've ever seen.

No other stations are seeing similar symptoms. No changes in equipment. We're at the point of giving up on all FOX programming.

~Brian

rdn

05-07-09, 07:44 PM

Budget_HT

05-08-09, 12:33 AM

Greeting all... this thread is even mightier than when I saw it last.

<snip>

I'm disconnecting cable again because we simply don't watch enough tv, and when we do it's mostly network or pbs anyhow. But Lost is the one show I can't do without! :) Kinda discouraged this hasn't changed in 4 or 5 years, particularly since the towers are all next to one another on QA, particularly since KIRO and KING come in perfectly. My analogue reception of KOMO is stellar btw. So very strange.

I'm located at .. check it out by location.
Lat 47.668461
Long -122.401643

CHeers! Still an awesome forum!

Kevin

I think you would be a candidate for Limited Basic Cable service, which here in Renton costs $16 per month. We get every OTA-equivalent HD channel this way.

Kelly From KOMO

05-09-09, 08:15 AM

[QUOTE=chickentender;16417792]Greeting all... this thread is even mightier than when I saw it last.

At any rate, in the new duplex here the game is the same even though I'm slightly lower, I actually have fewer obstructions. I can stand in the back yard and watch the queen anne towers blink from top to bottom... Still, KOMO doesn't even register on the STB.. nothing. Same as before. I understood that KOMO will mount the DTV antenna on top the tower and that this *should* fix the 'shadow' problem. I'm assuming this hasn't happened yet. Have any changes to the the transmitter happend since late 2004 that would in any way affect this issue in my location (and if you google it you'll see that I am pretty much right along the same line that, still unfornately, of the Shilshole apartment buildings that DanKurtz and Don have mentioned quite a while back.

Any changes? THoughts? Witty anecdotes?

[QUOTE]

Any side-mounted antenna on a tower will have a fairly major null caused by the structure (tower) supporting it.

In the case of KOMO, back in the 90's when they installed the DTV antenna, a population study was performed to determine the minimal impact and the best place to install the current DTV antenna to serve the majority of the population. Most of the null for the side mounted KOMO DTV antenna is over water.

Prior to leaving the parent company of KOMO last May, I had prepared a design and plan to replace the existing channel 4 VHF antenna at the top of the tower with a stacked omni-directional UHF DTV antenna(s), KOMO DTV channel 38 on top and KUNS DTV channel 50 on the bottom.

Obviously I can't speak to KOMO's plans or timing going forward as this is a quite expensive and elaborate project to swap antennas. Chances are the delay with the analog shut-off rightfully pushed any plans KOMO had for antenna replacement past the now June 12th date.

George Jetson

05-09-09, 11:38 AM

We only watch digital OTA and I've been seeing audio dropouts and video freezes in prime time programming (Lie to Me, House, Fringe, Dollhouse) for KCPQ Fox going back to at least early April, maybe March. The audio dropouts don't affect picture at all but they are long enough and frequent enough to render the programs unwatchable. This week's Lie to Me was the worst I've seen the problem with frequent audio dropouts and adding the worst video freeze and stutter I've ever seen.

This probably doesn't help, but I stopped seeing the dropout problem about a month ago. I don't watch Lie to Me but the other three you mentioned have been ok for me lately. Admittedly, most of my viewing is time-shifted and I've noticed recorded streams can mask or minimize minor glitches. I may try and watch some FOX OTA live just to see if I'm missing something.

I recall a couple of years ago there was a problem with one station that only affected certain tuners (a few Samsung STB models IIRC). That's probably a long-shot though, just throwing out ideas.

Jim in Seattle

05-09-09, 03:23 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

" ... In the case of KOMO, back in the 90's when they installed the DTV antenna, a population study was performed to determine the minimal impact and the best place to install the current DTV antenna to serve the majority of the population. Most of the null for the side mounted KOMO DTV antenna is over water. ..."
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly,
Since I am toward the water from the tower, is it possible I am in that null? Secondly, I have taken your suspicion of signal overload to heart and I built (altered) an antenna specifically for its directionality and minimal gain: I call it my "Project Zero" antenna. I'm sure you will recognise it, and photos are attached.

Lastly, KIRO 7s translator, K26IC-D (Bremerton/Silverdale) bumped up to its maximum power last Monday. Using an 8-bay CM-4228, before the change I was receiving it at a signal level of 49. After the change, they are now at 65. Their 'testing' ERP was 40 watts and they are now at 900 watts.

I ran the math and the change in signal is exactly what could have been predicted: 40 watts plus 3db, is 80watts, plus 3db is 160watts, etc. The numbers on my television's signal meter indicates a 16db gain which corresponds to 900 watts ERP. May I assume, in this case where there is minimal multipath, that the tv's signal meter does work like an 'S' meter?

Thanks in advance, Jim

brygx

05-10-09, 04:22 AM

rdn

05-10-09, 10:44 AM

I am in a 3rd floor condo in Capitol Hill, at the intersection of Olive and Boylston, and the living room faces west. I only care about the primary channels -- HDTV 4, 5, 7, 13 -- anything else is a bonus.

According to antennaweb, I just need a small multi for all these stations. If I have it right, 4, 5, 7 are broadcast from Capitol Hill, so probably any old rabbit ears would do? But 13 is from Tacoma so I would have expected to need a directional antenna to pick that up.

Any advice? What antenna would people recommend I try? Is there a way to combine a small multi and a directional in order to get the best of both worlds? Thanks!

Channels 4, 5, 7 and 16 broadcast from Queen Anne Hill. Channel 13 is licensed for Tacoma but the transmitter is on Gold Mountain, near Bremerton.

Rabbit ears aren't usually the best choice for digital TV. There's a good discussion on indoor antennas at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779.

Jim in Seattle

05-10-09, 12:53 PM

brygx wrote:
I am in a 3rd floor condo in Capitol Hill, at the intersection of Olive and Boylston, and the living room faces west. I only care about the primary channels -- HDTV 4, 5, 7, 13 -- anything else is a bonus. ...
---------------------------------------------------------------
brygx,
Below is a link to a website that will generate a map showing exact compass bearings from your address to TV transmitters (theoretically) in range of reception. Good luck!
Jim in Seattle

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=1

brygx

05-10-09, 06:44 PM

Wow, that's a crazy thread on idnoor antennas. I guess I'll have to find a store with a good return policy and get cracking =). Looks like they are UHF-only right now, but will be switching to UHF + VHF post-transition.

Also, anyone else actually live in the capitol hill area and have experience w/ indoor antennas used successfully?

Kelly From KOMO

05-10-09, 07:43 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

Since I am toward the water from the tower, is it possible I am in that null?
I ran the math and the change in signal is exactly what could have been predicted: 40 watts plus 3db, is 80watts, plus 3db is 160watts, etc. The numbers on my television's signal meter indicates a 16db gain which corresponds to 900 watts ERP. May I assume, in this case where there is minimal multipath, that the tv's signal meter does work like an 'S' meter?

Thanks in advance, Jim

The signal meter on your receiver does not measure db of field strength. It measures Eb/N0 (energy per bit to noise power spectral density ratio). Aka-signal quality. It is a normalized signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) measure, also known as the "SNR per bit". Eb/N0 is equal to the SNR divided by the "gross" link spectral efficiency in (bit/s)/Hz, where the bits in this context are transmitted data bits, inclusive of error correction information and other protocol overhead.

Regarding your question, even though KOMO may have a null going toward your home, at that distance the RF field strength is probably still pretty high. No broadcast antenna ever has a 100% null.

Jim in Seattle

05-10-09, 09:04 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

... Regarding your question, even though KOMO may have a null going toward your home, at that distance the RF field strength is probably still pretty high. No broadcast antenna ever has a 100% null.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly,
I tried my "Project Zero" loop today and as expected, its a 'dead' antenna but its quite directional. Raised about 5 feet over my CM4228, it received the KIRO translator at a 'signal' of 21, whereas the CM gets it at 65. Raised 25 feet over the CM it sees the translator at 71.

I searched for any signals from the QA towers at a variety of heights and analog 4 was pretty good. I saw an occassional blurp on the 'error' and 'S/N' lists but no other activity which is the same result using the same antenna in my basement which is 1/2 underground.
Jim

Kelly From KOMO

05-11-09, 07:37 AM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

I searched for any signals from the QA towers at a variety of heights and analog 4 was pretty good. I saw an occassional blurp on the 'error' and 'S/N' lists but no other activity which is the same result using the same antenna in my basement which is 1/2 underground.
Jim

Again I believe the challenge for you will be minimizing the combination of reflections and receiver overload from KOMO other DTV stations being so close.

Honestly comparing attempts of receiving local UHF-DT with VHF analog reception or a UHF translator from several miles away will be fraught with frustration. It takes trying different combinations of low-gain antennas, (I've used a paperclip), antenna orientation, etc.

Whidbey

05-11-09, 09:28 PM

Lately the TR-40 in my living room has been acting strange. Sometimes it will turn on and not display a picture and then won't react to the power button until I unplug it and plug it back in. Also, it's missed firing up for a couple timer events lately too.
I thought that maybe it was just the single unit going bad, but then I went to use the second TR-40cra In have in my garage. It had not been used for quite a while, maybe over a month. When I turned it on, same result as the house TR-40cra. Light on on the front, no picture, refusal to turn off. Pull the plug, replace plug, wait a moment, then the thing comes back on like normal.

Normally I'd post this to the TR-40 DTVPal thread, but I found it odd that both of my units would do this at the same time, and am wondering if there is something in the airwaves locally that could have caused them to exhibit this behavior.

Anyone else having similar issues with their TR-40cra or DTVPal?

GGG

05-12-09, 11:02 PM

APVan

05-14-09, 05:39 PM

I live off of 196th and 88th ave. (At the top of the hill before going down into the "bowl" of Edmonds. I tried a Radio Shack indoor/outdoor amplified antenna and had poor results. I get ch 13 with a piece of wire. I've read a lot of discussions on this forum about antennas and would appreciate some recommendations. I will need UHF and Vhf I guess to get all the local HD channels. Thanks

rjcarr316

05-14-09, 05:54 PM

Hi APVan ... I live about 15 blocks south of you and I have an Antennas Direct ClearStream2 mounted about 25 feet up and it works pretty well (like you, I'm right above the bowl).

There is an occasional drop in signal which seems to be mostly affected by the wind. If you have the space and money and you're really particular you could try a CS4 as it is more powerful.

Good luck!

Moonus

05-14-09, 07:32 PM

Hey APVan, I'd follow the other person's recommendation and, in so doing, be sure to ditch the Radio Shack amplified antenna.

Amplification may not be necessary, and, if, as a last resort it is (try to avoid it), look into a better amplifier, like a Channel Master 7777.

But follow the other person's advice first and look into an amplifier only if the better (unamplified) antenna isn't working.

allen98311

05-14-09, 10:30 PM

Are channels 9, 11, and 13 switching to VHF on June 12th, or a late date?

Phazeshift78

05-14-09, 10:48 PM

Okay.. I'm in the market to buy a new antenna.. I'm getting tired of losing Ch4. My old CM 4778 isn't cutting it. Awhile back, someone mentioned that I get a yagi type? Anyone have any suggestions? I'm located on 31st and 96th PL Se, Everett 98208. I have a few tree's in the way, and I'm down hill a bit. Any suggestions?

I lose 4 and 9 and 13. 5,7, and 11 are fine.

Whidbey

05-15-09, 04:42 PM

Are channels 9, 11, and 13 switching to VHF on June 12th, or a late date?

I think, at least for Ch 9, that day. They have been running PSAs advising people to rescan that day in order to continue receiving.

rdn

05-15-09, 09:18 PM

I think that date is the latest they can switch. Since there is a minimum time that they have to notify the FCC if they want to switch early (and probably too late to do that prior to June 12), all of the local switching should occur then.

haydeecm

05-20-09, 01:11 AM

rdn

05-20-09, 10:12 AM

Hi, I am in the market for OTA antenna. I live by downtown Kirkland off I-405. I got a very simple rabit ear antenna and are able to get most things in beautiful hi-def. The two i would love to get are KUNS and KBTC (both of which I cant get digital, and get blurry analog). I am confused by my antennaweb results, which say I should have no problem getting the digital KUNS, but also the way I read it the analog is at 122 degrees but the digital signal is at 230 degrees, does this make sense? Is KUNS not transmitting digital yet, or is it changing after the transition. Im so confused.

Not sure what my next step in antenna should be in order to get KUNS. I was thinking of trying an amped antenna like the Terk HDTVA.

In post #7542 (above), Kelly indicated that KUNS might move to the KOMO tower at some point, but 122 degrees sounds about right for receiving it now (and it is digital). In addition to antennaweb, you might see what TVfool (http://www.tvfool.com) predicts. Your issue may be multipath instead of a low signal, in which case an amp won't help (and might just make things worse).

A rabbit ears is generally a poor choice for digital signals. Here is a thread with a good comparison of indoor antennas: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779.

Kelly From KOMO

05-20-09, 04:45 PM

Hi, I am in the market for OTA antenna. I live by downtown Kirkland off I-405. I got a very simple rabit ear antenna and are able to get most things in beautiful hi-def. The two i would love to get are KUNS and KBTC (both of which I cant get digital, and get blurry analog). I am confused by my antennaweb results, which say I should have no problem getting the digital KUNS, but also the way I read it the analog is at 122 degrees but the digital signal is at 230 degrees, does this make sense? Is KUNS not transmitting digital yet, or is it changing after the transition. Im so confused.

Not sure what my next step in antenna should be in order to get KUNS. I was thinking of trying an amped antenna like the Terk HDTVA.

KUNS-DT is broadcasting also from West Tiger Mt on actual channel 50, virtual channel 51. As a matter of fact, both KUNS 51 analog and KUNS-DT 50 share the same transmit antenna.

If you're truly in downtown Kirkland, you may have a blocked view from Rose Hill due East.

Because Univision has no HD programming, the only digital content is 4:3 SD.

rdn

05-21-09, 02:50 PM

I just saw on KOMO news that all the Seattle locals will shut down analog for a one minute test at 5:28 PM this afternoon.

litzdog911

05-21-09, 04:08 PM

On 5/20/09 DirecTV added 3 more local HD channels ....

KCTS9 (PBS)
KSTW11 (CW)
KONG16 (Ind.)

These channels join the other HD channels we've had for awhile ....

KOMO4 (ABC)
KING5 (NBC)
KIRO7 (CBS)
KCPQ13 (FOX)
KMYQ22 (MyQ)

This takes some of the heat off of having to re-jigger my OTA antenna after June 12th for Chs 9 and 11.

allen98311

05-21-09, 07:18 PM

I just saw on KOMO news that all the Seattle locals will shut down analog for a one minute test at 5:28 PM this afternoon.

KING 5 News is also shutting down for 1 minute at 5:28.
TV stations to run digital test today (Seattle Times) (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009245374_webdigitaltest21.html)

Local TV stations will participate in a test run of the looming digital transition late this afternoon — an effort to remind people who have not prepared for the switch to get ready.

At 5:28 p.m., all local TV network affiliates will — for one minute — broadcast digital signals only.

speight93

05-24-09, 11:33 PM

Whidbey

05-25-09, 12:21 PM

As much as I would enjoy reading all 7000+ posts, I do not have the time. ;)

Can someone with the knowledge lay out what the top 5 Digital Antennae are, and what likely channels I will be able to recieve in Poulsbo, WA?

Much thanks for any help here!

Here's a post I found by typing "Poulsbo" into the search tread tool that may help.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4863883#post4863883

For the stations you can expect to get, try TVFool.com. You enter your address and height of antenna, and it gives you an idea of what to expect for channels, as well as the direction they are coming from.

Jim in Seattle

05-25-09, 12:27 PM

speight93 wrote:

Can someone with the knowledge lay out what the top 5 Digital Antennae are, and what likely channels I will be able to recieve in Poulsbo, WA?

---------------------------------------------------------
Speight93,
First, try the following website where you can enter your address and it will generate a list of stations you may be able to receive. You can change the results it shows by changing the height of your antenna. Depending on how high you are able to install an antenna, you may not be in a "fringe" area and too much antenna might be counterproductive.

Regarding the "top five" antennas, it really doesn't work that way. You need to select your antenna or antennas depending on your location.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=45

Jim in Seattle

speight93

05-26-09, 10:09 AM

Ah, thanks, I will check it out!

haydeecm

05-28-09, 12:24 AM

Kelly From KOMO

05-28-09, 01:15 PM

I am so tired of trying all kinds of indoor antennas and still not getting the results I want. TVFool says I should be able to get KUNS if I go into the attic. I have been looking at my unfinished attic and I am scared to walk up there, let alone try to do an antenna install. I was wondering if anyone had any sugestions on professional antenna installation services in the Seattle area. I think Radio Shack provides such, but i really have no idea where to look.

I wouldn't spend a lot of time nor money on doing an attic antenna installation. Chances are you won't be happy with the results (or lack thereof). Roofing nails, composite roofing materials, metal flashing, vent pipes, foil coated insulation can cause either reduced signal or reflections (AKA multipath).

Mount the antenna outside above the roofline for the best results. If you're worried about HOA restrictions, there are several examples of Federal Preemption on the FCC website to pass along to the HOA leadership group that would not prevent you from mounting an outdoor antenna.

RentonOTA

05-28-09, 03:30 PM

User7007

05-28-09, 04:58 PM

Kelly From KOMO

05-28-09, 05:43 PM

Just curious if anyone could comment on the ability to receive KOMO-TV via OTA antenna in Snoqualmie Ridge Area (Exit-25) off of I-90...According to Antennaweb.org there is only VHF reception possible for KOMO, but I find this hard to believe since: #1 Tiger Mountain is in the way for line of sight reception, and also #2 What happens after the digital transition date? Isnt VHF No Longer? I would love some clarification on this or "Real-World" reports from people who live in that area....Seems like only DirectTV, and Comcast are the only options if one wanted to receive KOMO due to the current disagreement between Dish Network and KOMO TV....Also type of antenna used if you are able to receive KOMO....Channel Master model, amp used or not etc!

Thanks!

You are probably blocked from Queen Anne Hill via line of sight, but may be able to get a reflection of their DTV transmission, if you want to experiment a bit with alternate types of antennas, etc. I'd start with a high gain antenna such as a Channel Master 4228 or a good yagi style UHF-VHF antenna, but no amplifier. Amps can make more trouble than they help.

Oh, and mount your antenna above the roof line as far as possible. Remember to ground your antenna too for safety sake.

Regarding your VHF question; yes KOMO, KIRO and KING will all be leaving their low VHF channels after June 12th. Channel 9 and 11 will be going back to their mid/high-VHF channels post-transition.

User7007

05-28-09, 06:19 PM

Jim in Seattle

05-28-09, 08:07 PM

RentonOTA wrote:
... "Checking the with the FCC web site, it looks like most of the stations have applied to locate new DTV antennas back on the "high ground" at top of their towers and change ERP levels. Does anyone have a time-frame for the changes?" ...
---------------------------------------------------------
Doug,
Inspired by your message, this afternoon I climbed all over the FCC website and I couldn't find any referrence to applications to move transmitting antennas or changing ERP levels. Please share the link/s with me and thanks in advance.
Jim in Seattle

zyland

05-28-09, 08:08 PM

pastiche

05-28-09, 09:53 PM

Is this just a case where the CM-7000 tuner just handles marginal signals much better than the other two?

I'd assume it's the wonder of the CM-7000. My CM-7000 leaves my Zenith DTT900 (a few months older) and my RJTech RJ-1000ATSC (a year older) in the dust.

The improvement in tuners over the years is truly amazing. A paperclip stuck in the antenna jack on my CM-7000 grabs most of the locals, most of the time. My first tuner, a Samsung SIR-T150, could see channels 9 and 11 a couple of times a week. :)

RentonOTA

05-28-09, 11:38 PM

RentonOTA

05-28-09, 11:54 PM

Well after swapping out my old UHF corner reflector with my new CM 4221-A 4-bay antenna, and many, many trips up the ladder to the roof to try and tweak it. I'll have to declare the results as a Bust. Most channels signal levels don't peak as high on my CM-7000 as they did before the change. and now KOMO 4.1 & 4.2 have joined KSTW 11.1 as another drop-out problem child. Can't go more then 15 seconds between freeze-ups. Boo Hiss! Still haven't decided if I'll but the old antenna back up or play with the new one for a while. :(

Doug

RentonOTA

05-29-09, 01:06 AM

DanKurts

05-29-09, 03:01 AM

DanKurts

05-29-09, 03:23 AM

I got three tuners. Two don't handle KWPX very well (no signal). One (ChannelMaster 7000) handles it great. I've eliminated the February switch from channel 32 to channel 33 as a possible problem. Cabling shouldn't be a problem because I can replicate the behavior with the same cabling. I bypassed the powered splitter with the same results. Is this just a case where the CM-7000 tuner just handles marginal signals much better than the other two?

Other Two: Pinnacle System PCTV USB tuner, Mitsubishi internal tuner.

Thanks for any ideas.

zyland
I've only seen a few Pinnacle tuners, neither were very good with marginal signals. Mits tuners vary a lot, depending on what model, some good, some lousy, none excellent. The CM7000 is hands down the best I've seen, Zenith converter close behind. I was amazed at the capabilty of the 7000. It pulled in signals down to -26db, 5db better than the Zenith. My regular meter only reads to -22db, and every other HD tuner I've seen usually quits after after -15db to -17db. The other amazing part is it's ability to handle ugly signals. I'm in the tress, somewhat, and some of the Tiger Mt channels are really chopped up. My direct box barely gets ch45 and 51, basically unwatchable. The Samsung H260 pulls them in great, but shows the level on its indicator as barely there. The 7000 shows it as almost perfect. Now if they could just get that chipset into the mainstream HD tuners like satellites and TV's.......
Dan

DanKurts

05-29-09, 03:34 AM

Hi, does anyone know if and/or when the Seattle TV stations will be locating their DTV transmitting antennas to the top of their towers? Most of the stations have been broadcasting DTV signals from side mounted antennas so they could start getting digital "on the air" until the DTV transition date. Checking the with the FCC web site, it looks like most of the stations have applied to locate new DTV antennas back on the "high ground" at top of their towers and change ERP levels. Does anyone have a time-frame for the changes? Channels 9,11 and 13 will return to their VHF channels for DTV after the transition date. Hopefully this will give them greater coverage? I'll be using a CM4221 antenna and hope to get all the DTV signals from a single antenna (yes, I know that the gain on 13 will be marginal and on 9 and 11 will be in serious minus gain territory). But, still I'm hoping that I'm close enough for solid signals here in the valley along the Cedar River. If not, can anyone recommend a good VHF/UHF low loss signal combiner?

Thanks,
Doug :confused:

Doug
Most U/V combiner/splitters have very low loss compared to a 2way. Channel Master makes one
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
I would wait for the changeover before going further. Ch's 9 & 11 came in great for me with an old 4221 when they did their VHF tests, which were done at lower power. Your other problem UHF channels may change as well.
Dan

sequoia2006

05-29-09, 01:02 PM

Kelly From KOMO

05-29-09, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the reply Kelly, I have also heard it's "Mitchell Hill" near Issaquah that is also blocking my Line of Sight....Would you happen to know or be able to comment on what warrants the need for a repeater to be setup/installed? I am curious if this is an issue for everyone East of Snoqualmie, or if people in places like Clellum are able to receive OTA from where they are located...or does the signal simply drop out and fade away after Snoqualmie/North Bend?

With over 95% of the viewership in the Seattle/Tacoma market getting TV via Alternative Delivery, (AKA cable or satellite) I seriously dout stations will be adding new community translators or boosters to lower-populated areas anytime soon. Frankly most stations would prefer to not have to deal with the high cost of purchase, maintenance and utility costs to operate existing high power DTV transmission systems to begin with. In earlier times when OTA reception was the 90%, and ADI was 20% it was a different story.

I was reading an article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday "Cutting The Cable" about an increasing trend, primarily driven by economic conditions, of viewers re-discovering free OTA television vs. paying for ADI. Granted it was a small percentage of growth (something like <.05%), one can't help but wonder if more are interested whether stations will start looking more seriously about filling in their coverage areas with DTV boosters or translators.

To me it makes more economic sense for all concerned in the DTV world for stations to move away from the traditional throw-a-bunch-of-expensive-power-into-the-air from atop a hill, to more of a cellular approach using numerous low power syncronized DTV transmission systems located where the acutal population is.

Jim in Seattle

05-29-09, 02:57 PM

sequoia2006 wrote:
I live in Tumwater, WA. I've been researching on what type of antenna that I would need to pull in the HD channels from Seattle (KOMO, KING, KIRO, etc) and it does not look like it's possible. Have anyone here had any luck doing that? If so, what hardware did you use.

This is TVFool signal analysis report for my location:
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d249dc1f66405f2
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sequoia2006,
I suggest you go back to the tvfool page and reenter your address but try it at 30 and 40 feet elevation. It may indicate there is much more signal available to you, higher up. Regarding antennas, I built a 15 element 'cut-to-35' Yagi ("Project-35") to receive channel 12, in Bellingham and that's about the same distance away from me that the Seattle towers are from you. You can see photos of it on page 250 and 251 of this forum, post #7490 and #7517.

You can also look at specific stations and their 'expected useable coverage range' at the following (REC Broadcast Query) website. Here's the link to KVOS Bellingham, but their transmitter is actually on Orcas Island. Click the blue link on the left side, view map . The second entry is current, the third entry for KVOS is a proposal. In theory, I am out of range of KVOS but I have it at a rock-solid 'signal level' of 49, with my antenna only ten feet above my roofline.
http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=&call=KVOS&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

I have attached below photos of my newest 11 bar Yagi, "Project 48" for Channel 5. On my testing-mast it works at 20 feet above my roofline, but I have dropouts. Twenty-five or thirty feet might lock it in. Sometimes Yagi's rule!
Jim in Seattle

skyboysea

05-29-09, 03:33 PM

sequoia2006

05-29-09, 09:00 PM

Thanks Jim and skyboysea. I live in a neighborhood with HOA so they won't let me install any antenna so I can only put the antenna in my attic.

Whidbey

05-29-09, 09:06 PM

Thanks Jim and skyboysea. I live in a neighborhood with HOA so they won't let me install any antenna so I can only put the antenna in my attic.

I believe it's actually illegal for HOA's to ban outdoor antennas. IIRC, you can have up to a 3 foot diameter satellite dish, or up to 12 foot tall antenna mast. There is an FCC ruling from 1996 on this.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Kelly From KOMO

05-29-09, 09:22 PM

I believe it's actually illegal for HOA's to ban outdoor antennas. IIRC, you can have up to a 3 foot diameter satellite dish, or up to 12 foot tall antenna mast. There is an FCC ruling from 1996 on this.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Agreed. If you go to the FCC website http://www.fcc.gov and do a search for TV antenna federal preemption, there are several examples of how HOA's can not prevent you legally from installing an outdoor antenna.

DanKurts

05-30-09, 01:45 AM

I live in Tumwater, WA. I've been researching on what type of antenna that I would need to pull in the HD channels from Seattle (KOMO, KING, KIRO, etc) and it does not look like it's possible. Have anyone here had any luck doing that? If so, what hardware did you use.

This is TVFool signal analysis report for my location:
tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d249dc1f66405f2

Thanks.

sequoia2006
I've done a few surveys around there, not good. What's your cross streets and we'll take a look.
Home Owners assoc. can't prevent you from installing an antenna for TV reception. It's basically up to 12ft above the highest point on your roof, and up to 1 meter diameter for a satellite dish. In your attic will not work there.
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
Dan

RentonOTA

05-30-09, 02:32 AM

Doug
Most U/V combiner/splitters have very low loss compared to a 2way. Channel Master makes one
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
I would wait for the changeover before going further. Ch's 9 & 11 came in great for me with an old 4221 when they did their VHF tests, which were done at lower power. Your other problem UHF channels may change as well.
Dan
Thanks Dan, I'm hoping that the 4221 will get me 9,11&13 after the transition. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Doug

thegeeknme

05-30-09, 01:11 PM

I'm having really good luck getting all I want Seattle and Tacoma channels with my attic mounted VHF/UHF I think it's a CM 3678.

I'm fortunate that my ridge line runs North and South so I just built a small stand and have it aimed out the end of the house almost directly North. (I live in Fife, next to Puyallup river.)

My CM-7000 and DT 901 are working well after adding a amp into the mix.

I agree with others that with the changeover only a few days away, don't buy more equipment untill all of the channels and powers are settled.

RE: HOA, it's true that the FCC ruled that HOAs could not prohibit OTA antennas HOWEVER, if you are in a 'condo' situation, there is wording that says it has to be mounted on 'limited common element' areas. So it's possible that if you are like me in a duplex, you may not be able to use the roof or chimney.(without HOA board permission) Just study up and you'll be fine. As a VP of our HOA, it goes VERY far with most boards when members let them know what they are planning to do and they make an effort to work WITH the board not against/behind it.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d249d4a39611b32

forum junkie

05-30-09, 08:24 PM

Hi, does anyone know if and/or when the Seattle TV stations will be locating their DTV transmitting antennas to the top of their towers? Most of the stations have been broadcasting DTV signals from side mounted antennas so they could start getting digital "on the air" until the DTV transition date. Checking the with the FCC web site, it looks like most of the stations have applied to locate new DTV antennas back on the "high ground" at top of their towers and change ERP levels. Does anyone have a time-frame for the changes? Channels 9,11 and 13 will return to their VHF channels for DTV after the transition date. Hopefully this will give them greater coverage? I'll be using a CM4221 antenna and hope to get all the DTV signals from a single antenna (yes, I know that the gain on 13 will be marginal and on 9 and 11 will be in serious minus gain territory). But, still I'm hoping that I'm close enough for solid signals here in the valley along the Cedar River. If not, can anyone recommend a good VHF/UHF low loss signal combiner?

Thanks,
Doug :confused:

Back in Feb. I e-mailed the KIRO people who replied that they would be moving theirs in June. What I don't know is if the delay changed that timetable.

Since I am on here perhaps someone with more knowledge can explain this to me. Out here in Yelm (at least where I have to shoot through 2 sets of BPA towers) one 4228 is not enough to get a signal more than 50% of the time and so I stacked two of them. This gets me all the stations through the winter but I lose ch.5 and ch.7 when the warm dry weather hits.

Here is what I am curious about ---after seeing some disscussion about using attenuators I tried puting one on each 4228 before the 2-way which made no difference. I also tried just puting one after the 2-way which made no difference. Now with the warm air here again, just out of curiosity I put an attenuator just on one of the stacked 4228's and wow ---there was ch.5 and ch.7 back again 20 points stronger. What did an attenuator on just one do for me?

Kelly From KOMO

05-30-09, 11:54 PM

Back in Feb. I e-mailed the KIRO people Now with the warm air here again, just out of curiosity I put an attenuator just on one of the stacked 4228's and wow ---there was ch.5 and ch.7 back again 20 points stronger. What did an attenuator on just one do for me?

Probably reduced or eliminated a reflection that was canceling out the signal from that particular antenna.

Falcon_77

05-31-09, 10:20 AM

Jim in Seattle

05-31-09, 10:43 AM

Falcon_77 wrote:

KOMO's move to the top of the tower was granted, along with a non-directional antenna for 880kW on 38.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1312596&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=21656

Hopefully, this will clear up a lot of issues with the station, though I would presume it will take some months to construct while the old channel 4 antenna is removed.

They also have an outstanding application for 1000kW/ND, but 880kW/ND top-mounted should be a significant improvement vs. 810kW side-mounted and directional (especially for those to the West).
-------------------------------------------------------------
I found the KOMO construction permit, attached as a PDF below. They have three years to complete the project. I hope they start working on it ASAP, because I'm west of them and I also hope KIRO, KING (and KONG ?) follow suit and exchange their antennas as well. :)
Jim

rdn

05-31-09, 03:32 PM

Jim in Seattle

05-31-09, 04:17 PM

rdn wrote:
Good for KOMO! I also hope KIRO and KING do that (although I currently receive them without any problems). Since KING and KONG share the same tower, I doubt that they can both occupy the top.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
rdn,
I remember reading a proposal many years ago regarding the torch on top of the Space Needle and how it could be replaced with a single antenna for channels 4, 5 and 7. I think the term they used was multiplexing.

Also, Kelly from KOMO wrote earlier in a response: "KUNS-DT is broadcasting also from West Tiger Mt on actual channel 50, virtual channel 51. As a matter of fact, both KUNS 51 analog and KUNS-DT 50 share the same transmit antenna".

If both KING and KONG could share the same antenna on top of their tower, it might help me snag their signals. Or if the KONG antenna is mounted lower than the current KOMO antenna, perhaps they could 'leap-frog' it upward.
Jim

Falcon_77

05-31-09, 05:59 PM

There are quite a few shared antennas in use throughout the country, though they tend to be relatively close in frequency. 31 & 48 may be a bit of a stretch.

KONG has a maximized app pending for 1000kW/ND, but at the same height (127m AGL).

KING has an app pending for 1000kW/ND as well, but at 166m AGL, so it looks like there aren't any plans to combine them onto one antenna.

Hopefully, Canada can approve these soon. It appears that KOMO dropped their requested ERP from 1000 to 880kW to get instant approval as Canada hadn't approved 1000kW yet. Perhaps KING and KONG could follow KOMO's lead and request lower power with the antennas they want.

KIRO has an app pending for 176 vs. 149AGL, but with the same pattern they currently have. So they are probably just going to raise the existing antenna, which has a restricted pattern to the West. (if approved) They have also filed apps for a couple digital translators, for Olympia and Mt. Vernon, but they won't help viewers that are due West.

Kelly From KOMO

05-31-09, 06:32 PM

There are quite a few shared antennas in use throughout the country, though they tend to be relatively close in frequency. 31 & 48 may be a bit of a stretch.

KONG has a maximized app pending for 1000kW/ND, but at the same height (127m AGL).

KING has an app pending for 1000kW/ND as well, but at 166m AGL, so it looks like there aren't any plans to combine them onto one antenna.

Hopefully, Canada can approve these soon. It appears that KOMO dropped their requested ERP from 1000 to 880kW to get instant approval as Canada hadn't approved 1000kW yet.

I'm not sure what they're planning, but my original design allowed the channel 38 KOMO-DT omni antenna to be mounted atop the omni channel 50 KUNS-DT antenna. Both antennas would easily fit within the same height as the existing channel 4 "batwing" antenna.

You're correct that removing the existing channel 4 antenna is quite a job. That antenna weighs with the mounting pole about 11,000lbs.

RentonOTA

06-01-09, 01:49 AM

I'm not sure what they're planning, but my original design allowed the channel 38 KOMO-DT omni antenna to be mounted atop the omni channel 50 KUNS-DT antenna. Both antennas would easily fit within the same height as the existing channel 4 "batwing" antenna.

You're correct that removing the existing channel 4 antenna is quite a job. That antenna weighs with the mounting pole about 11,000lbs.

Yikes! I knew that the old "batwing" antenna and mast would be heavy, but not that heavy! Any hints as to how they will remove the old antennas and install the new one(s). HAMs will sometimes use a Gin Pole to to raise their antennas to the top of their towers.

Can they use the existing Hardline or will they have to install new feedline(s) too?

Once the analog signals are shut off will it be safe to work at the top of the tower without reducing the RF levels from the existing DTV antennas?

I'd pay to buy a ticket to watch :D

Thanks,
Doug

sequoia2006

06-01-09, 03:31 AM

sequoia2006
I've done a few surveys around there, not good. What's your cross streets and we'll take a look.
Home Owners assoc. can't prevent you from installing an antenna for TV reception. It's basically up to 12ft above the highest point on your roof, and up to 1 meter diameter for a satellite dish. In your attic will not work there.
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
Dan

My closest cross streets are 70th and LittleRock Road. Thanks.

Jim in Seattle

06-01-09, 12:12 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

"I'm not sure what they're planning, but my original design allowed the channel 38 KOMO-DT omni antenna to be mounted atop the omni channel 50 KUNS-DT antenna. Both antennas would easily fit within the same height as the existing channel 4 "batwing" antenna."
----------
Kelly,
That sound like the right way to engineer it to me...
--------------------------------------------
"You're correct that removing the existing channel 4 antenna is quite a job. That antenna weighs with the mounting pole about 11,000lbs."
---------------------------------------------
Holy cow, now I really know the difference between hardware and software! Just like Doug, I'd buy a ticket to watch, too!
Jim

Kelly From KOMO

06-01-09, 12:13 PM

Yikes! I knew that the old "batwing" antenna and mast would be heavy, but not that heavy! Any hints as to how they will remove the old antennas and install the new one(s). HAMs will sometimes use a Gin Pole to to raise their antennas to the top of their towers.

Can they use the existing Hardline or will they have to install new feedline(s) too?

Once the analog signals are shut off will it be safe to work at the top of the tower without reducing the RF levels from the existing DTV antennas?

I'd pay to buy a ticket to watch :D

Thanks,
Doug

99% of the time one would use a gin pole to remove and replace the antenna and mounting pole assembly on this type of installation. A REALLY big gin pole to be sure.

Helicopters where very sexy, are far more dangerous and expensive when handling those sorts of loads over populated areas, plus much more risky to tower workers and hardware when it comes to installing a new antenna.

The existing channel 4 antenna pole attachment will be rather tricky to remove, as it extends down into the tower structure rather than just being bolted to a top mounted plate. Fortunately the existing pole was replaced in the 80's as a maintenance matter, so the amount of old paint and rust will be less than the original pole would have had.

The old transmission line will need to be replaced with new, and more added to also feed the KUNS-DT antenna.

During the work of removing and replacing VHF top mount antenna, KOMO-DT will have to still reduce power significantly and most likely shut down while the workers climb through and work around the side mounted DTV antenna aperture.

allen98311

06-01-09, 02:45 PM

During the work of removing and replacing VHF top mount antenna, KOMO-DT will have to still reduce power significantly and most likely shut down while the workers climb through and work around the side mounted DTV antenna aperture.

Does KOMO have a backup antenna, or can they use KUNS to broadcast KOMO (either on CH 38, or as a subchannel) while they do the work, or would they just be off-air?

Kelly From KOMO

06-01-09, 03:18 PM

Does KOMO have a backup antenna, or can they use KUNS to broadcast KOMO (either on CH 38, or as a subchannel) while they do the work, or would they just be off-air?

Even though my handle is left over from my KOMO days, I no longer work for them. I'm not sure what they have planned.

I'd be willing to bet that they won't be using KUNS to broadcast KOMO during the work, but will schedule the work to be off the air or at reduced power at a time with minimal impact. Even though owned by the same company, KUNS is essentially a stand-alone station.

k_ross

06-01-09, 05:34 PM

I'm not sure what they're planning, but my original design allowed the channel 38 KOMO-DT omni antenna to be mounted atop the omni channel 50 KUNS-DT antenna.

I must be missing something here. I thought KUNS (and KUNS-DT) broadcasts from West Tiger Mountain. Are you talking about moving KUNS to Queen Anne Hill? Or am I wrong, they do not broadcast from Tiger Mtn?

Thanks!
-- Kevin

Kelly From KOMO

06-01-09, 07:01 PM

I must be missing something here. I thought KUNS (and KUNS-DT) broadcasts from West Tiger Mountain. Are you talking about moving KUNS to Queen Anne Hill? Or am I wrong, they do not broadcast from Tiger Mtn?

Thanks!
-- Kevin

Yes prior to my departure and according to the application filed with the FCC, that appears to be the plan.

DanKurts

06-02-09, 01:36 AM

My closest cross streets are 70th and LittleRock Road. Thanks.

sequoia2006
You're about 52 miles away. There's a hill in the way, about 2 miles NE of you, at E st SW and 5th ave SW. It's not high, but you're in it's shadow. And I'm assuming there's trees on top, too. It doesn't look good.
I've tried over on the hill west of Capital Lake, and in the South Bay area, NE of Olympia. All on the similar path as yours. Signal is very weak, and very chopped up by all the trees.
Dan

Jim in Seattle

06-02-09, 10:39 AM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:
... "During the work of removing and replacing VHF top mount antenna, KOMO-DT will have to still reduce power significantly and most likely shut down while the workers climb through and work around the side mounted DTV antenna aperture."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Listers,
Below is a 'must-see' link to a website about a transmitting tower in California with detailed plans about changing the VHF antennas to UHF antennas. This is the penultimate godzilla of antenna towers. :eek:
Jim

http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html

sequoia2006

06-02-09, 03:02 PM

sequoia2006
You're about 52 miles away. There's a hill in the way, about 2 miles NE of you, at E st SW and 5th ave SW. It's not high, but you're in it's shadow. And I'm assuming there's trees on top, too. It doesn't look good.
I've tried over on the hill west of Capital Lake, and in the South Bay area, NE of Olympia. All on the similar path as yours. Signal is very weak, and very chopped up by all the trees.
Dan

Thanks Dan. I probably will go with Comcast or DirectTV then.

Falcon_77

06-02-09, 03:40 PM

Thanks Dan. I probably will go with Comcast or DirectTV then.

KIRO has an application for a digital replacement translator covering the Olympia area. However, it is not yet granted and unless the other stations follow suit, it probably won't be enough.

Even KOMO's Non-Directional construction permit at the top of the tower isn't likely to change the situation, especially if trees are in the way. Only KCPG/FOX stands a good chance among the big 4.

Across the country, not many stations have shown interest in adding new digital translators. If mobile DTV takes hold, perhaps they will re-think this.

Imagine if cell phone companies tried the one tower approach? Granted, that is a subscription model...

zyland

06-02-09, 04:41 PM

allen98311

06-02-09, 08:26 PM

There is a notice across the bottom of the KBTC analog channel 28 that says

If you can see this message, you may not be ready for the digital transition
on June 12. Please call KBTC at 253-680-7706 for more information.

The same notice is absent from the digital channel 28-1. Not sure if it's present on the cable or satellite carriage channels.

This is what the FCC should have required all analog channels to do before the last transition date in February.

Falcon_77

06-02-09, 08:31 PM

KIRO has an application for a digital replacement translator covering the Olympia area.

I ran a quick simulation of the proposed KIRO-LD facility for Olympia vs. the KIRO application for the top of the tower on Queen Anne Hill. Attached is the result.

Green areas are served by both and blue are served by the LD, but not the main. The threshold is at -85dBm, which is fairly aggressive due to trees, though the simulation does take into account general land cover.

Falcon_77

06-02-09, 08:34 PM

This is what the FCC should have required all analog channels to do before the last transition date in February.

Is it required now? I haven't seen any notices like this in the LA area, except on one channel (Univision). I check the analog signals every morning to see what the stations are doing. I have been disappointed thus far. It still seems like they are doing *less* now vs. February.

The analog sides should be running these 24/7, but leave the digital signal alone.

quarque

06-02-09, 09:11 PM

...
If mobile DTV takes hold, perhaps they will re-think this.
...

I remember reading somewhere that the DTV system adopted in the US does not lend itself to mobile DTV no matter how many towers/cells are put up. The Europeans adopted a different system which works much better for mobile applications. Figures...

Whidbey

06-02-09, 10:13 PM

Is it required now? I haven't seen any notices like this in the LA area, except on one channel (Univision).

I've seen banner messages scrolling across the bottom of the screen on some channels off and on for quite some time now. Funny thing is, they are all digital. Seems to me that it just lends to confusion to broadcast the message on digital channels.

zyland

06-03-09, 12:14 AM

I've seen banner messages scrolling across the bottom of the screen on some channels off and on for quite some time now. Funny thing is, they are all digital. Seems to me that it just lends to confusion to broadcast the message on digital channels.
That's why I pointed out the KBTC message. As far as I could tell, it only appeared on the analog channel. If cable and/or satellite are picking up the analog channel, it still warns the right people because they will also go dark on June 12th.

allen98311

06-03-09, 12:18 AM

That's why I pointed out the KBTC message. As far as I could tell, it only appeared on the analog channel. If cable and/or satellite are picking up the analog channel, it still warns the right people because they will also go dark on June 12th.

It is not showing up on DirecTV.

rdn

06-03-09, 12:53 PM

There is a notice across the bottom of the KBTC analog channel 28 that says

If you can see this message, you may not be ready for the digital transition
on June 12. Please call KBTC at 253-680-7706 for more information.

The same notice is absent from the digital channel 28-1. Not sure if it's present on the cable or satellite carriage channels.

Both Directv and Dish Network have used the digital feed since ~10/2008, so the message doesn't show up. When they switched, the picture cleaned up a bit and the slight ghosting disappeared. I believe it's still 480i, 4:3 and don't know if KBTC has any plans to transition to HD.

RentonOTA

06-03-09, 03:03 PM

Thanks to everyone for all the great information in the posts and replys. It's only a few days until the transition to DTV. And it will be interesting to see what happens on the 12th and in the weeks and months that follow. Most of the major (old VHF) stations will take a while to complete construction of their new DTV antennas. And hopefully eventually get permission from Canadian authorities permission to operate at max ERP.

Thanks,

Doug :)

Trip in VA

06-04-09, 12:24 AM

KCPQ wants a 15 kW fill-in translator on channel 22. You may not need an antenna aimed out toward VHF-13 after all.

- Trip

rdn

06-04-09, 12:39 AM

KCPQ wants a 15 kW fill-in translator on channel 22. You may not need an antenna aimed out toward VHF-13 after all.

- Trip

Has the location been announced?

Trip in VA

06-04-09, 12:43 AM

Has the location been announced?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1315725&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=33894

Wherever KMYQ-DT is. I don't know enough about the specific geography of the area.

- Trip

zyland

06-04-09, 02:47 AM

thefalcon2k

06-04-09, 05:44 AM

KMYQ, KSTW and KCTS are all on Capitol HillKCPQ & KTBW broadcast on Gold Mountain here in Kitsap County. KTBW already has removed their analog signal, and now broadcast on digital channel 14. However, PSIP technology is keeping their channels on 20-1 to 20-5.

KCPQ has been on Gold Mountain for quite a few years, it would be a shame to have it disappear after all these years.

By the way, if KCPQ broadcasts on digital channel 22 ... what does that do for KMYQ?

Trip in VA

06-04-09, 06:37 AM

By the way, if KCPQ broadcasts on digital channel 22 ... what does that do for KMYQ?

Capitol Hill, that was the name. I couldn't remember it, much too tired. Still am. :)

KMYQ-DT is on channel 25, so it doesn't do anything.

- Trip

Falcon_77

06-04-09, 11:06 AM

Here is a contour map that was linked to the application:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=761793&formid=346&q_num=5100

It looks like they are concerned about indoor reception in urban areas. This might be the best of both. Upper VHF for long range, terrain challenged areas and UHF for urban areas with impulse noise/indoor antenna issues.

If we hadn't auctioned off so many channels, we could probably do more of this. Hopefully DTS can help solve the lack of spectrum issue if stations are willing to implement it.

rdn

06-04-09, 11:29 AM

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1315725&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=33894

Wherever KMYQ-DT is. I don't know enough about the specific geography of the area.

- Trip

Beautiful! KMYQ-DT has the strongest signal of all at my location (KCPQ is blocked by hills). I recall that at one time (before I had any digital equipment), KCPQ was shown as a KMYQ subchannel, in addition to the main transmitter.

Falcon_77

06-04-09, 11:40 AM

I did a quick simulation of the proposed combined KCPQ 13 and 22 coverage (see attached).

I used -60dBm and 2m AGL to simulate indoor coverage, vs. -90dBm/10m on most of my plots. -60dBm equates to about 70dBu, vs. 90dBu on the KCPQ contour plot.

KCPQ stands to make considerable gains to indoor reception (see the blue areas), if approved. I think this is a great idea and hope the FCC signs off on it.

The gains could be even greater as the simulation does not take impulse noise into account, or co-location/antenna aiming benefits.

RentonOTA

06-04-09, 03:49 PM

Hmmmmmm..... a channel 13 Digital translator or would that more properly be called an second transmitter? Since it could be fed its own signal directly from the KCPQ studio.

Unfortunately the projected signal coverage may not help me here, tucked in along the Cedar River. Regardless, I hope it gets approved soon.

What I like about this list is that there seems to be a new tidbit of information everyday.

Regards,

Doug

rdn

06-05-09, 07:58 AM

I'm not sure what to make of the green/yellow/blue patterns, but it may help my reception with an external antenna. I am located just about on the dashed red line due west of the Capital Hill location. Channel 22 is the analog frequency of KMYQ, which probably makes it a bit easier for them to implement with some of their existing equipment.

Falcon_77

06-05-09, 11:48 AM

I'm not sure what to make of the green/yellow/blue patterns, but it may help my reception with an external antenna.

Green are areas that both 13 and 22 should cover with an indoor antenna. Yellow are areas that 13 should cover and blue 22.

With an outdoor class antenna, these areas will be greatly expanded. Attached is a simulation of the proposed LD-22 facility, by itself, using normal parameters, showing relative signal strengths. Blue areas on this plot will likely require outdoor antennas.

rdn

06-05-09, 12:59 PM

Green are areas that both 13 and 22 should cover with an indoor antenna. Yellow are areas that 13 should cover and blue 22.

With an outdoor class antenna, these areas will be greatly expanded. Attached is a simulation of the proposed LD-22 facility, by itself, using normal parameters, showing relative signal strengths. Blue areas on this plot will likely require outdoor antennas.

Thanks, I already have an outdoor antenna (two, actually) and should be in good shape.

thefalcon2k

06-05-09, 06:10 PM

So, KCPQ is only adding a digital translator? I would hope they don't shut down the Gold Mountain tower! My cable system doesn't have the AccuWeather network (13-2), and it's very handy!

Trip in VA

06-05-09, 06:16 PM

The new channel 22 transmitter would compliment, not replace, the VHF-13.

- Trip

shegato

06-05-09, 07:57 PM

Hi -

I live ~45 miles north of Seattle. With my current set-up (old battered Radio Shack UHF/VHF deep fringe, 20ft mast and no preamp) I get Vancouver BC analogs fairly well, sometimes can get a barely watchable KING, but no other Seattle stations. Many years ago my Dad was visiting and helped me put up a 40ft mast and I was able to get Fox and KOMO in addition to KING - but it got blown over 3 months after I put it up.

With my current set-up, I don’t get any digital channels accept for Bellingham’s KVOS. Luckily, Canada is not going all digital for a couple of years, so at least I won’t be completely screwed come June 12th!

My plan is to buy a Channel Master 4228HD antenna, 7777 preamp, 9521a rotator and a 1640 40ft telescoping mast. Is this the best equipment for any hope at reception of Seattle digital signals? Does anybody know anywhere local that you can get quality antenna supplies? I can get it all on-line of course, but that makes it problematic for returns/exchanges in the event it doesn’t work.

Dan, can you tell with your software whether 40ft will be high enough? I’ve done the TVfool analysis and it’s got most of Seattle in the fairly hopeless category... but I’m hoping that since I was able to get the analog signal at 40ft, that I will be able to get the digital with a preamp.

address: 22128 48th ave nw, Stanwood 98292

Thanks for your help!
Sherry

thefalcon2k

06-05-09, 08:33 PM

Luckily, Canada is not going all digital for a couple of years, so at least I won’t be completely screwed come June 12th!You're right! For those of you who are unaware (and can get Canadian television), the digital transition in Canada is currently scheduled for August 31, 2011.

Whidbey

06-05-09, 08:34 PM

Does anybody know anywhere local that you can get quality antenna supplies? I can get it all on-line of course, but that makes it problematic for returns/exchanges in the event it doesn’t work.

You may be able to get some of your equipment at Fry's in Renton. Long drive, so phone first. Also, after buying the mast and pre-amp, I would check if your existing antenna is good enough before installing a new one. Don't forget guy wires for your mast, or it will just blow down again.

Falcon_77

06-05-09, 08:35 PM

I’ve done the TVfool analysis and it’s got most of Seattle in the fairly hopeless category... but I’m hoping that since I was able to get the analog signal at 40ft, that I will be able to get the digital with a preamp.

My main concern here is that you were only able to receive Low-VHF analog signals from Queen Anne Hill. KING and KOMO will not be returning to Low-VHF.

Realistically, only KCPQ/13, on Gold Mountain stands a chance, when it moves back to 13. However, you will need a better VHF antenna for this.

The CM4228 is a bit of a sail as well, and I would not recommend it over a Yagi style, such as a 91XG on a high mast. Note that KCPQ/13 will need a high-band VHF antenna vs. UHF. Also, if you want to keep analog CBUT/2, you will want to have a full range VHF antenna.

Are you using a rotor now?

KIRO has a digital translator application for Mt. Vernon, which may provide some hope, for at least one more station.

Falcon_77

06-05-09, 09:23 PM

Attached are two cross-sectional plots to the proposed KIRO top mounted facility on Queen Anne Hill and the proposed translator for Mt. Vernon. At about 65', the chances appear fair with a high-gain antenna and a pre-amp as respects UHF. The proposed translator doesn't appear to be of significant help, however, as it would also be obstructed by hills.

Perhaps others will have a different opinion, but this appears to be a tough location. There is also no substitute for trial and error.

shegato

06-05-09, 10:53 PM

My main concern here is that you were only able to receive Low-VHF analog signals from Queen Anne Hill. KING and KOMO will not be returning to Low-VHF.

But they will still be using the same towers, right? So, if I have a good UHF antenna at 40ft, I should still have the same line of sight? It’s just that the digital signal power will be really really low?

Realistically, only KCPQ/13, on Gold Mountain stands a chance, when it moves back to 13. However, you will need a better VHF antenna for this.

Part of the reason I was choosing the CM4228HD is because it’s supposed to cover the high-VHF; 7-13. It’s only rated for 45 miles for VHF signal (vs 60 miles for the digital), so maybe it’s not going to be good enough?

Note that KCPQ/13 will need a high-band VHF antenna vs. UHF. Also, if you want to keep analog CBUT/2, you will want to have a full range VHF antenna.

I was planning to keep my decrepit Radio Shack in operation until Canada switches over. It doesn’t pick up any of the Canadian digital signals, but I’m hoping that is only because they aren’t at full power yet? According to TVfools, I should be getting them now.

Are you using a rotor now?

Manual style... vise-grips and a little muscle!

KIRO has a digital translator application for Mt. Vernon, which may provide some hope, for at least one more station.

That would be awesome! Wish they all would do that. All of us country bumpkins are going to be really ticked if we can’t get our free OTA. Canadian stations are mostly US programming, so it won’t be completely devastating to lose Seattle - - - the only thing I’m really missing is to be able to watch the Seahawks and the Sounders. And if throwing $$$ at the problem isn’t going to help, maybe I shouldn’t bother!

quarque

06-05-09, 10:56 PM

shegato

06-05-09, 10:57 PM

DanKurts

06-06-09, 04:17 AM

Wow, those visuals are really cool. But, are you suggesting I need a 65 foot mast for any chance at getting KIRO !!!

shegato
No, about a 200ft mast, or more when you add in all the trees on the hilltop at 200th St NW, about 2 miles south of you. Quarque's advice says it all.
Dan

x43x

06-06-09, 01:14 PM

Falcon_77

06-06-09, 06:56 PM

But they will still be using the same towers, right? So, if I have a good UHF antenna at 40ft, I should still have the same line of sight?

Yes, but, as noted above, the problem is that UHF doesn't "bend" as well over the hills as Low-VHF. It also doesn't get through trees easily, both of which will work against you. I checked the future upper VHF stations on Capitol Hill and they won't be significantly better.

I agree that it's probably not worth throwing money at this. Perhaps the best you can do is let the stations know you are out there and would like to see some local translators!

quarque

06-06-09, 09:33 PM

Man, you guys are fast. Our assistant chief engineer was surprised when I asked him about the digital translator for KCPQ on Capitol Hill, and that I heard about it on AVS. Apparently they haven't told anyone at the station yet, even the maintenance guys didn't know. I was told it would be a Low Power antenna and technically not a translator. But the posted FCC application says otherwise, so I dunno. I was also told that the FCC is on board and we just have to buy a few parts to make it work. I didn't get a time line, but if I find out anything more I'll let you know, unless you guys find out first and tell me!

Hey x43x - we gave them the parts and it's already up and running :D :D :D

sorrry, I couldn't resist...

If/when they get it going it will be a welcome addition to this side of the pond. For some reason 13 does not penetrate many areas over here very well and is one of the biggest problems for those trying to get the big four networks.

Jim in Seattle

06-07-09, 09:16 PM

Larry,
I have been catching-up by reading our local 'Seattle' forum from page one (2003 :eek:) and you recommended tilting antennas several times, particularly when there is a nearby blockage of a signal between a transmitting tower and the receiving antenna.

The same was suggested to me on the "How To Build An Antenna Forum" here on AVS. The following website confirms the concept: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html It demonstrates a similar problem to mine: a 35 foot concrete retaining wall 200 feet east of me, plus, at best, my antennas will be another 10 feet lower because I am farther down the hillside.

Recently, I bought an antenna on Craigslist and the seller gave me some ideal bracketry to tilt an antenna but it was originally meant for a small dish application. I can copy these simple mounts, but by chance do you know where I can buy them (without having to buy a dish)? ;)

Since my Project-35 Yagi was so successful capturing KVOS (12) 'Bellingham' I built a Project 48 and a Project 38 Yagi to capture KOMO, KING and KIRO and all work - marginally - on my low test-mast (18 feet above my roofline). When I install my permanent telescopic mast I will gain another 5 to 10 feet in antenna elevation and I'd like to be setup to try the tilt-plan. Thanks in advance!

Jim (with 34 FREE digital channels detected so far) (plus analog CKVU 10 in BC and K42CM in Centralia!)

quarque

06-07-09, 10:27 PM

Jim - you are one determined guy! I wish I could help you with a source but I've done almost nothing with dishes or mounts. Some thoughts come to mind: home centers that sell antennas, Radio Shack, abandoned houses with unused dishes (?). Good luck!

P.S. the tilting idea has not been widely accepted on AVS but I know it works in some situations.

rdn

06-08-09, 12:37 AM

Recently, I bought an antenna on Craigslist and the seller gave me some ideal bracketry to tilt an antenna but it was originally meant for a small dish application. I can copy these simple mounts, but by chance do you know where I can buy them (without having to buy a dish)? ;)

This should do the job, if not too pricey:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=BAU

Moonus

06-08-09, 01:47 PM

Jim in Seattle

06-08-09, 11:03 PM

Quarque wrote:
Jim - you are one determined guy! ... ... P.S. the tilting idea has not been widely accepted on AVS but I know it works in some situations.
----------------------------------------------------------
Larry,
I was thinking its probably best I'm going to tilt my Yagi antennas rather than tilt at windmills -:eek:- or am I? I fabricated special 10 degree mounts today and I'll test both antennas again this weekend, assuming our weather holds and report the results.

Thanks for the ideas about fiinding mounts at home centers and abandoned houses too.
Jim

Jim in Seattle

06-08-09, 11:11 PM

rdn wrote:
This should do the job, if not too pricey:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=BAU
-------------------------------------------------------------
Bob,
Thanks for the link but I kept it for future use. That mount is 'overkill' for my current applications and today I fabricated mounts per my message to Larry above. 73!:)
Jim

zyland

06-09-09, 02:29 AM

MHz WorldView which was on 28.4 is now on 28.2
Create which was on 28.2 is now on 28.4

http://www.kbtc.org/page.php?id=135

To sum up, no big change, just a sub-channel swap.

Jiff

06-10-09, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the info.
Does anyone in Anacortes have luck getting the digital stations from Victoria or Vancouver BC?

Nope. I tried out one of the digital converter boxes a couple weeks ago and got a few low signal readings but no video or audio and I'm up several feet at Burrows Bay, open to Vancouver island. I did get KVOS and a shopping station quite well transmiited from Orcas Island. Also got KCPQ good. No other Seattle stations. Bummer because I did get KOMO and KING analog good enough to watch.

WD-40

06-10-09, 10:45 PM

Just a note of thanks to the KCPQ folks for putting up a "translator" (or whatever it is going to be called) for KCPQ on the Ch. 22 facility. This'll simplify my antenna setup a lot, as "all" of the major stations (at least for me) will then be broadcasting from Seattle. Thanks!

Agreed!

Actually, this translator might be my only hope of picking it up at all. Does anyone know when this is expected to be activated? Will it happen on the 12th with the big switch, or will it come some time after that?

The KCPQ website mentions that people may have trouble with reception in Seattle, but makes no mention of the translator...
http://www.q13fox.com/about/dtv/

RentonOTA

06-11-09, 04:18 PM

zyland

06-11-09, 04:28 PM

Steve Schauer

06-11-09, 05:13 PM

Hi does anyone know if it will to it will do any good to try and contact the major Seattle TV stations getting some information as when they will be putting their new DTV antennas on top of their towers? And if so who at the station to contact? RF Engineer, Chief Engineer, or perhaps a DTV transition manager?

It's only one day until the analog signals go dark. KING TV mentioned in their noon newscast today that their VHF signal will be shut off at 9am Friday.

Thanks,
Doug

I've been wondering the same thing. Are we going to see any power increases or stronger signals from KOMO, KING, KIRO, or KONG? I realize KCTS KSTW and KCPQ are moving down to VHF, but will the other guys be doing anything differently tomorrow with their digital signals?

tschall

06-11-09, 08:30 PM

With less than 24 hours to go, KCTS joins KBTC in warning the masses. The following occupies the top half of the analog channel 9.

This analog channel will shut down at
4:00 a.m. on Friday, June 12.
To keep watching television you must have a
TV with digital reception, or subscribe to
cable or satellite TV.
Please contact us if you have questions.

KCTS9.org/digital 1.800.796.5548

This warning is not present on the digital KCTS

I didn't see a similar warning on the other analog channels, except KBTC.

I am currently sitting in my office at the KCTS tower watching the shiny new Rohde & Schwarz VHF transmitter make pictures. Into the station load of course but still, it is operating perfectly. We'll see you guys on VHF digital shortly after 4A.M. Up first with some test signals and then onto programming.

Kelly From KOMO

06-12-09, 12:01 AM

I've been wondering the same thing. Are we going to see any power increases or stronger signals from KOMO, KING, KIRO, or KONG? I realize KCTS KSTW and KCPQ are moving down to VHF, but will the other guys be doing anything differently tomorrow with their digital signals?

Nope!

Maokh

06-12-09, 02:22 AM

KOMO: 9am

KING: 9am, Will remain on the air for a while to inform poor saps to go buy their converter box ;)

KCTS: 4am

I was hoping someone would cut off at midnight so i could watch, but maybe i wont be so lucky.

If anyone else could fill in blanks, would be helpful.

allen98311

06-12-09, 03:12 AM

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/102/story/946038.html says

KOMO - 11:59 p.m.
KING - 11:59 p.m. Thursday.
KIRO - 9 a.m.
KCTS - 4 to 5 a.m.
KSTW - Noon
KCPQ - 9 a.m.
KONG - 9 a.m.
KTBW - Transitioned already.
KMYQ - 9 a.m.
KBTC - 9 a.m.
KWPX - Transitioned already.
KHCV - Transitioned already.
KUNS - 6 a.m. to noon.

But KING says 9 am on their newscast,

x43x

06-12-09, 03:15 AM

KCPQ and KMYQ at 9AM. KMYQ should see a boost in transmitting power after the switch.

The translator antenna for KCPQ on Capitol Hill won't be up anytime soon. Still some FCC stuff and equipment purchasing/setting up/configuring to iron out.

Maokh

06-12-09, 03:20 AM

Yes, but, as noted above, the problem is that UHF doesn't "bend" as well over the hills as Low-VHF. It also doesn't get through trees easily, both of which will work against you.

Which is why DTV always gets crappy for me in the summer :p

Maokh

06-12-09, 03:21 AM

zyland

06-12-09, 03:31 AM

Maokh

06-12-09, 03:59 AM

KING, KONG go all-digital 9 a.m. Friday

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_061109DTV-switchover-preview-TP.6a49f371.html

KING will be a "nightlight" for two weeks. awwww.

Being the geek I am, i am going to try to get up and capture some of these cut offs.

thefalcon2k

06-12-09, 04:14 AM

With cable, it's hard to watch some of these cutoffs. However, with a cheap indoor antenna (as a backup), it'll be cool to see a change in the only channel I do get that's analog. But, the good news is that I have a digital television!

By the way, I should mention I have a straight shot to Gold Mountain (KCPQ & KTBW). And, yes ... I know KTBW already switched! I missed it, and didn't know it before it was too late! However, it's amazing how clear these channels are in digital quality (sub channels, too)!

tschall

06-12-09, 05:57 AM

zyland

06-12-09, 07:19 AM

With just a little over an hour to go at KCTS I feel a bit like I'm standing a death watch for an old friend. But, everything is being locally controlled from the tower site right now and barring any unforeseen circumstances KCTS is ready to go at 4 AM
Looking good

digital 9.1 (physical channel 9) shows a color bar test
digital 9.2 (physical channel 9) shows a color bar test
digital 9.3 (physical channel 9) has Create content

Look out for this gotcha. After doing an autoscan, my d2a converter box did NOT remove the old KCTS digital channels, so I had two versions of digital channels 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3 (one for physical channel 9 and one for physical channel 41). As expected the ones associate with physical channel 41 had nothing.

My location is top of Education Hill in Redmond.

Trip in VA

06-12-09, 07:25 AM

Two more KIRO translators have fired up, according to FCC filings last night.

Look for channel 49 in Puyallup (looking toward Tacoma): http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1148114.html

Look for channel 30 in Port Angeles: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1147806.html

- Trip

tschall

06-12-09, 07:35 AM

Hi Folks:

Well, KCTS is done. Cranked the Rohde up just a little after 4AM and it is playing very well. Geez, it got quiet in here with these two air cooled monsters turned off.

As reception reports come into this forum and elsewhere we, as broadcasters, would find it extremly valuable to know where you are. Exact street addresses are not necessary but city, town, neighborhood, that sort of thing would sure be nice.

tim

rdn

06-12-09, 11:07 AM

Directv (which uses the Tribune database instead of scanning) handled the KCTS frequency change just fine with both the OTA tuners and 9.1 satellite pickup). I didn't get up at transition time but it was all working when I checked at 7:30. They switched to digital in October so only the frequency changes should be affected.

I did a scan on my HDHomeRun networked dual-tuner box picked up 9 VHF with no problems, just as in the previous tests (south side of Eagle Harbor on Bainbridge Island).

Whidbey

06-12-09, 11:25 AM

Bruceko

06-12-09, 12:02 PM

4, 7, 13 analog gone
It has been nice knowing you

Maokh

06-12-09, 12:03 PM

most just dropped off the air moments ago like clockwork ... KCPQ had some sort of going off party, but the rest just cut randomly it seemed.

rdn

06-12-09, 12:03 PM

I was watching KING on both digital and analog at 9 am and sure, enough the analog channel switched to changeover information. Prior to the switch the analog signal lagged the digital one by about 20 seconds.

rdn

06-12-09, 12:19 PM

Trip in VA

06-12-09, 12:21 PM

I don't think so. I think the absense of analogs on 7 and 9 just made it easier.

- Trip

Maokh

06-12-09, 12:21 PM

zyland

06-12-09, 12:27 PM

KCPQ transition seems good.

I'm getting 13.1 and 13.2 (physical channel 13) loud and clear

location: Education Hill in Redmond

analog channel 5: nightlight
analog channel 11: normal KSTW content
analog channel 28: nightlight

all other analog channels gone. YooHoo

haydeecm

06-12-09, 12:45 PM

My channel 9 KCTS is gone, never had any problem at all getting any of the seattle channels, I am in Kirkland. Hope it comes back!

Edit: Never mind, just rescanned again and its back.

rdn

06-12-09, 12:54 PM

RDN, whats the call sign of that low powered station?

so KOMO did go off at 9am.
KSTW is the only station doing broadcast (up until noon).
KING is, of course, doing nightlight.

Some cable/sat providers do receive stations OTA and re-broadcast them, so wouldn't be surprised if there were disruptions. Thats what the nightlight is for i guess. Of course, that wouldn't help if a digital station moved frequencies.

The PSIP data on ch. 8 only shows 3ABN. I don't know why they have it as virtual 73 (maybe they were analog at one time on that channel). The list at http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm shows it as K08OU.

I can see KUNS and 42-1 on my Vizio but not the HDHomeRun (KUNS is also coming in on the Directv HR20's ATSC tuner). I'll rescan the HDHomeRun and the converter on my bedroom TV later. I can't find any info on 42-1 (PSIP shows RF42-1) but the bug says Daystar (religious programming).

I looked a bit further and 42-1 is KWDK, probably Tiger Mountain).

Trip in VA

06-12-09, 01:23 PM

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=66997#station

K08OU.

- Trip

robglasser

06-12-09, 01:39 PM

valvashon

06-12-09, 01:53 PM

The 3ABN station used to be an analog low power station on channel 68 from one of the Capitol Hill towers (channel 22 I think.) Part of their transmitter failed and then they went to even lower power, and finally shut it off for a while. They have been on the air for a while now- probably at least 6 months. I don't know why they went to 73 for their virtual channel. Maybe they are doing it nationwide to claim 73 as their own.

Val

ggarwin

06-12-09, 01:55 PM

I can't tune physical channel 9 at all up here in Marysville. Previously, when it was broadcast on 41, I had no problems. Hopefully we are still in a transition period and they will up their signal soon.

I'm having a similar experience between Lynnwood and Martha Lake. My CM-7000 connected to a Radio Shack VHF/UHF amplified antenna used to show a signal strength of 80-100% for 9 broadcast over 41. Today, the strength is <20% and the CM-7000 can't readily lock onto the signal. LIke Whidbey, I'm hoping that the station is in a transition, less than full-power mode, and signal strength will improve eventually.

As of 10:00 a.m. I'm still receiving 11 and 13 well.

Greg

Trip in VA

06-12-09, 02:35 PM

Maybe they are doing it nationwide to claim 73 as their own.

That is exactly what they're doing. Other 3ABN station also map to 73-1.

- Trip

litzdog911

06-12-09, 02:36 PM

Now that the switch has happened it looks like I'm going to need a new antenna?

I have a UHF antenna, CM4221, that has worked like a champ for the past 4 years. However, now that a few stations have switched their digital signal to VHF I can't pick them up. I've tried re-scanning on my Dish DVR's and no luck. I had been holding out hope that I'd pick them up (The antenna did pick up a very fuzzy version of the analog versions before the cutove) but apparently it's not working.

Any suggestions on a new antenna that will do a good job with VHF and UHF, and have the wide range of the 4221 to pick up downtown towers as well as KCPQ from the Martha Lake area (between Lynnwood and Mill Creek)?

Rob:
I added one of these VHH Hi-band antennas to my attic mounted CM4221 using a Channel Master CM7777 preamp ....
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13

Seems to work fine so far. Got it from Solid Signal several months ago in anticipation of Chs 9, 11 and 13 moving back to VHF.

tschall

06-12-09, 02:51 PM

I re-scanned my HDHomeRun this morning and it started picking up a digital signal on physical channel 8 (virtual 73). It wasn't there an hour or so ago. There are 4 subchannels, two of which are audio-only. This was a low-power channel which I couldn't receive previously but it's coming in quite well now. Did they increase power?

K08BU is a low power on the channel 22 tower on Capital Hill. They PSIP as channel 73 so that they're the same all across the country. They have one PSIP generator at their uplink site and channel 73 was the first low power that they put on many years ago in their home town.

tschall

06-12-09, 02:54 PM

I'm having a similar experience between Lynnwood and Martha Lake. My CM-7000 connected to a Radio Shack VHF/UHF amplified antenna used to show a signal strength of 80-100% for 9 broadcast over 41. Today, the strength is <20% and the CM-7000 can't readily lock onto the signal. LIke Whidbey, I'm hoping that the station is in a transition, less than full-power mode, and signal strength will improve eventually.

As of 10:00 a.m. I'm still receiving 11 and 13 well.

Greg

KCTS is at full power. The most we'll ever have (21.7kw ERP) until there are treaty modifications with the Canadians or pigs learn to fly.

Tim

robglasser

06-12-09, 03:01 PM

Rob:
I added one of these VHH Hi-band antennas to my attic mounted CM4221 using a Channel Master CM7777 preamp ....
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13

Seems to work fine so far. Got it from Solid Signal several months ago in anticipation of Chs 9, 11 and 13 moving back to VHF.

Cool. Thanks for the info. Just looked up the parts, should be pretty easy to add to my existing mast. I think I'll go place an order.

rdn

06-12-09, 03:13 PM

I checked KSTW at noon. Directv's database for the OTA tuner had already made the switch and the channel was gone before the transition but came back. The satellite channel went to a test pattern for a few seconds and then black. After several minutes a "digital transition in progress" slide came up.

Rescanning my Vizio and HDHomeRun brought in 11 with no issues. The rescan of the Vizio didn't pick up KUNS this time, so it must be pretty marginal.

waltc_wa

06-12-09, 03:20 PM

I installed a Winegard HD7694P some months ago expecting to survive the 9, 11 and 13 migration. After rescanning I am happy to report that I was right! The signals I get are about what I got before or maybe a little better.

I'm on High Rock Rd on the ridge 5 miles south of Monroe at the 430 foot elevation.

zyland

06-12-09, 04:26 PM

Guess I spoke to soon.

ChannelMaster 7000 and DigitalStream DTX9900 tuner picked up all of the transitions flawlessly.

My internal Mitsubishi WD-62525 tuner won't pick up digital KCPQ after it changed to physical 13 (KCTS and KSTW went fine)

My Pinnacle Systems PCTV HD Stick won't pick up digital KCPQ, KCTS or KSTW after the switch. It might be a problem with Windows Media Center which I thought I had worked around.

The Antenna is a CM4221.

Any suggests for a Windows Media Center tuner that has a tuner that works as well as the CM7000?

robglasser

06-12-09, 04:31 PM

Maokh

06-12-09, 04:43 PM

I relocated the TV to a location in the house without an antenna jack, so ive been getting away with rabbit ears for the last month or so. Looks like they aren't going to cut it anymore with the changes in effect. :/ Kids/wife are not impressed. Wonder what i'll be doing this weekend...

I was only able to catch two of these as many stations were shutting down at the same time.

KSTW 11 Seattle, WA shutdown (11:59 am): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVeTB5tkGrM

KCPQ 13 Seattle, WA shutdown (8:59 am): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ9KCQtWF-c

KING 5 cut to their nightlight video loop on how to install a converter box, its not quite as interesting. Maybe ill encode it another time.

gjvrieze

06-12-09, 04:44 PM

Hmmm, I wonder what I'm better off doing to get 9, 11, and 13 back . . .

1. Supplement my CM4221 with a CM7777 pre-amp and adding in an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13, total cost about $83.00 + shipping

or

2. Replace my CM4221 with a Winegard HD7694P to pick up both the UHF and VHF stations, total cost about $49.00 + shipping.

or

3. Is there a better option?

I'm not really worried about the cost, I just want to get the best signal.
Are your aims for VHF-HI and UHF at the same heading.. If they are, the HD7696 since it is cheaper, seems better, if they are at different aims, the two antenna solution is the best.

k_ross

06-12-09, 05:04 PM

Hmmm, I wonder what I'm better off doing to get 9, 11, and 13 back . . .

1. Supplement my CM4221 with a CM7777 pre-amp and adding in an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13, total cost about $83.00 + shipping

or

2. Replace my CM4221 with a Winegard HD7694P to pick up both the UHF and VHF stations, total cost about $49.00 + shipping.

or

3. Is there a better option?

I'm not really worried about the cost, I just want to get the best signal.

If you're not currently using a pre-amp, there's no need to add one just to join the two antennas. A simple UHF/VHF splitter/joiner (UVSJ), sold for about a buck at Home Depot, Lowes, Radio Shack, etc. would be fine. It looks like a regular 2-way splitter, except one port is labeled UHF, and another VHF.

So, a Y5-7-13 plus a UVSJ should do you fine.

-- Kevin

robglasser

06-12-09, 05:12 PM

If you're not currently using a pre-amp, there's no need to add one just to join the two antennas. A simple UHF/VHF splitter/joiner (UVSJ), sold for about a buck at Home Depot, Lowes, Radio Shack, etc. would be fine. It looks like a regular 2-way splitter, except one port is labeled UHF, and another VHF.

So, a Y5-7-13 plus a UVSJ should do you fine.

-- Kevin

Thanks. I was just about to post that same thing. I was looking online and found UHF and VHF joiners for a lot cheaper. Figured since I didn't need a preamp today I shouldn't need one to add a VHF antenna.

I like the idea of 2 antennas, that lets me aim the VHF one more towards KCPQ's tower and really dial that signal in. I might even be able to get KCTS back on my 4221. Turned out I am actually picking up channel 11 on my 4221, my receiver just required me to delete the old entry for it before re-scanning it (no such luck with KCPQ).

Years ago I sacrificed a fair amount of KCTS signal to pull in KCPQ, if I point a VHF antenna at KCPQ and swing the 4221 back to the south more it might be enough to pull in KCTS, if needed.

Is there going to be a problem using a joiner with channel 11 being potentially picked up by both antennas?

dickba

06-12-09, 05:18 PM

I live about 13 blocks from the KIRO Port Angeles translator and can't get my box to lock into it. I do get 2.1 8.1 and 32.1 from Vancouver and both 12.1 and 24.1 from Orcas Isl.

Do I have a bad converter or has KIRO got a problem?

Maokh

06-12-09, 05:37 PM

Is there going to be a problem using a joiner with channel 11 being potentially picked up by both antennas?

It can have the same effect of multipath if the signals are very very slightly out of phase (difficult for the tuner to filter out). Also, you have the chance of drastically increasing the strength of a channel 11 reflection you did not intend. But try it if you want -- it may work fine.

As you know, we can't see ghosts anymore, but 8VSB is extremely touchy. Its too bad OFDM was thrown out as modulation, otherwise, we'd have amazing coverage, low error rates, and viewers on our mobile phones :p

k_ross

06-12-09, 05:58 PM

Is there going to be a problem using a joiner with channel 11 being potentially picked up by both antennas?

No. A UVSJ will only accept UHF from one port, and completely filter it out on the other port. And the opposite for VHF.

KR7L

06-12-09, 06:15 PM

KCTS is at full power. The most we'll ever have (21.7kw ERP) until there are treaty modifications with the Canadians or pigs learn to fly.

Tim

Tim and others,

Channels 9, 11, and 13 VHF digital being received well in Covington-Lake Sawyer area on my CM4221HD modified for VHF reception. I use a rotator but no preamp.

Simple instructions for anyone that wants to try the mod.

Richard
KR7L
Cross streets SE 293rd and 207th Ave SE

Bruceko

06-12-09, 06:29 PM

i would like the instructions on the mod.

allen98311

06-12-09, 06:44 PM

I have a 4221 and I can get ch 13 (88%) and 9 (81%), but ch 11 is very hard to get (56% when I get it). If I tilt the antenna, I can get the signal up to 73%. Is channel 11 going to increase power or move their antenna. Are the other channels already broadcasting from the top of the towers, or is that still to come?

I am in the Sunnyslope area of Port Orchard at about 500ft.

rdn

06-12-09, 07:26 PM

Any suggests for a Windows Media Center tuner that has a tuner that works as well as the CM7000?

I haven't been that impressed with WMC. I have set it up with my HDHomeRun tuner. When it does a lookup, it can find the main stations, but the subchannels don't show up in the list.

Bruceko

06-12-09, 08:14 PM

I guess I am paying for being an early adopter. My signal from 9 is marginal, 11 and 13 are gone. I have been using a Winegard yagi for the last few years, my 3rd antennae over the years. no vhf hi band reception. I am not sure if I am even going to bother with another one

zyland

06-12-09, 08:27 PM

I haven't been that impressed with WMC. I have set it up with my HDHomeRun tuner. When it does a lookup, it can find the main stations, but the subchannels don't show up in the list.
WMC is not as good as Tivo IMO, but it is subscription free. I haven't checked out other packages.

They fixed the "no guide information on subchannels beyond x.1" problem in TV Pack 2008 and Windows 7. You can modify WMC prior to TV Pack 2008 by using the Comcast guide information instead but it only gives you guide info for sub-channels that Comcast carries.

thewarm

06-12-09, 08:40 PM

WMC is not as good as Tivo IMO, but it is subscription free. I haven't checked out other packages.

I use both. I have a HDHR tuner for my PC, and a Multi-Stream Cable Card in my TiVo HD. I record network shows on the computer (clear QAM), and everything else on the TiVo. This combo gives me the ability to record 4 shows at once with only 2 units!:)

McFly9000

06-12-09, 09:04 PM

Is Channel 13 running full power on their new channel?

It is the only one I cannot pick up, there is some signal bouncing around on the meter but it wont lock in. (3 separate tuners) I never had any problem with the old channel (18) and the new VHF channels 9 and 11 come in solid along with every other channel. I have a good quality high band VHF that does work quite well. I might have to tweak the aiming a bit tomorrow...

finlay648

06-12-09, 09:17 PM

ggarwin

06-12-09, 09:19 PM

Simple instructions for anyone that wants to try the mod.

Richard:

I, too, would like the instructions.

Greg

jaymw

06-12-09, 10:41 PM

Hi,

I live only a couple miles from Queen Anne, and assumed that 4 5 and 7 would be no trouble. I assumed all they would do is turn off the VHF analog transmitters, and leave the UHF ones alone.

But, KING did change something. Two converter boxes work fine, and the HP TV (which is a Sharp Aquos derivative) shows a 93% signal quality on UHF 48, so it is not a carrier problem. This HP TV has been known to have problems with less-than-perfect PSIP, so I guess they changed that.

With the DTVpal, I see that some of the stations are using large numbers in the 70's for their virtual channel numbering. What is that about, and is that involved in my difficulties?

Thanks,
Jay

tai4de2

06-12-09, 11:18 PM

I am receiving 9 and 13 but 11 fades in and out. When 11 did some earlier tests I had no problem but now no luck. 9 may be a problem during adverse conditions. I'm 1100' up on Orcas Island using ganged CM4228s. Looks like I may have to add a hi-band VHF antenna to my setup.

I am also having a problem with 11 -- my HDHomeRun claims low signal quality.

Antennaweb says that 9 and 22 are coming from the exact same heading, and I get those with nearly 100% strength. Is KSTW having technical difficulties? Or does it broadcast with lower power from 9 and 22?

I received KSTW-DT from wherever it came before today, without problems.

tschall

06-12-09, 11:25 PM

I am also having a problem with 11 -- my HDHomeRun claims low signal quality.

Antennaweb says that 9 and 22 are coming from the exact same heading, and I get those with nearly 100% strength. Is KSTW having technical difficulties? Or does it broadcast with lower power from 9 and 22?

I received KSTW-DT from wherever it came before today, without problems.

9, 11 & 22 are in a very tight cluster of towers on Capital Hill at the intersection of 18th Ave and E Madison St. in Seattle. Something like a 400 foot circle. Fire up Google Earth or Mapquest and hit 1611 18th Ave in Seattle.

I saw the KSTW guys on the hill today and they were there for a long time. I never did go over and speak to them. I am in the south end of Bellevue and I to am having a lot of trouble with their signal. I will call them on monday if I am still having issues.

Tim Schall

Hi Def Fan

06-12-09, 11:34 PM

Only problem I'm having is I lost ABC (4.1 and 4.2). I was getting both in fine before the rollover, but now my TV's autoscan won't even find them! I came here expecting to see others with this problem, but I see no mention of it.

While it's nice that I get the others fine, including ones I didn't think I'd get (can watch the Seahawks in HD on 13.1 now), it's a major loss if I can't get KOMO anymore. I live in a hi rise apt (13 stories) with roof antenna. It's located on 4th ave just a couple blocks south of Denny Way.

Anyone know what I can do? I was going to call KOMO, but they're probably swamped with calls. I can see all 3 towers for 4, 5 and 7 right out my living room window. Granted 4 was always the hardest to get in of the 3, but certainly not impossible. The most I ever had to do is fiddle with the position of my coax cable (connected to the roof antenna) for a few minutes.

What I don't get is when I press 4 on my remote, it will say DTV Air 4-0, not DTV Air 4-1. The management of our apt building says we're getting satellite, but no mention of when. Until then, I may have to do without ABC altogether.

rdn

06-12-09, 11:53 PM

With the DTVpal, I see that some of the stations are using large numbers in the 70's for their virtual channel numbering. What is that about, and is that involved in my difficulties?

Thanks,
Jay

Channel 8 (low-power K08OU) uses 73 as a virtual channel (see the posts from earlier today).

WD-40

06-13-09, 12:02 AM

Here's a new one. A rescan on the HTPC this evening found 38.3 and 39.1, but identified them as audio-only.

TV Fool doesn't list them, AntennaWeb doesn't list them, and my Google searches come up empty.

Does anyone know where these broadcasts are coming from? :confused:

tai4de2

06-13-09, 12:21 AM

9, 11 & 22 are in a very tight cluster of towers on Capital Hill at the intersection of 18th Ave and E Madison St. in Seattle. Something like a 400 foot circle. Fire up Google Earth or Mapquest and hit 1611 18th Ave in Seattle.

I saw the KSTW guys on the hill today and they were there for a long time. I never did go over and speak to them. I am in the south end of Bellevue and I to am having a lot of trouble with their signal. I will call them on monday if I am still having issues.

Thanks for this info.

For 11, my HDHR says signal strength is 100%, but signal quality is bouncing around like crazy and and symbol quality is zero.

For 9 and 22 I am getting 100% for all and in any case I have pretty much direct line of sight from Kirkland across the lake to the towers... I gotta think 11 is having technical difficulties at the moment. I can still get it in SD from Comcast so it's not a total loss. Hopefully they'll get the OTA issue cleared up soon.

Besides this issue, after the cut-over I'm getting pretty much the same stations I was getting at about the same signal strengths. I am still not getting KUNS-DT and KWPX-DT at all. Guess my antenna is aimed the other way.

tai4de2

06-13-09, 12:48 AM

Only problem I'm having is I lost ABC (4.1 and 4.2). I was getting both in fine before the rollover, but now my TV's autoscan won't even find them! I came here expecting to see others with this problem, but I see no mention of it.

Strange -- KOMO did not change frequencies. They were at 38 before and are at 38 now. I can get them just fine (as of 2 minutes ago). Maybe you are having a transient equipment problem that will resolve itself.

allen98311

06-13-09, 01:55 AM

Hi Def Fan

06-13-09, 02:19 AM

Strange -- KOMO did not change frequencies. They were at 38 before and are at 38 now. I can get them just fine (as of 2 minutes ago). Maybe you are having a transient equipment problem that will resolve itself.I don't know, maybe so. I left a message with the engineer Trent at KOMO about it. Hope he has time to return the call. I didn't use KOMO a lot before, but when it's gone you definitely know it. They are the only of the 3 major network channels regularly playing HD movies on the weekend, including 3 of the Harry Potter series back to back.

haydeecm

06-13-09, 02:32 AM

Go to the channel list (Menu - 3 Setup - 2 System Setup - 2 Channel Setup - 1 Channel List) and delete the channels that moved, and then rescan. The DTVPals start using channel 70 if there is a duplicate virtual channel number.

I actually had to go through the installation menu (Menu - 3 setup - 2 system setup - 1 installation - 1 setup wizard) in order to do a full rescan that would delete the channels in the 70's, so I think either of these solutions should work. Unfortunately I think my DVR did not record a show today in one of these channels that were mislabeled, and I think it was because of that. Hopefully this doesnt happen everyday.

I am missing channel 13!! I didnt realize I was going to lose any channels, according to tvfool KCPQ shouldve been okay after the transition. I am so bummed, gonna miss the Fox shows. However my Vizio picked up analog channel 28 today for the first time of all days. None of the digitals under 28, just the analog.

allen98311

06-13-09, 02:57 AM

I actually had to go through the installation menu (Menu - 3 setup - 2 system setup - 1 installation - 1 setup wizard) in order to do a full rescan that would delete the channels in the 70's, so I think either of these solutions should work. Unfortunately I think my DVR did not record a show today in one of these channels that were mislabeled, and I think it was because of that. Hopefully this doesnt happen everyday.

I am missing channel 13!! I didnt realize I was going to lose any channels, according to tvfool KCPQ shouldve been okay after the transition. I am so bummed, gonna miss the Fox shows. However my Vizio picked up analog channel 28 today for the first time of all days. None of the digitals under 28, just the analog.

Do you have a dtvpal or a drvpal dvr?
You can also manually add in channels

thegeeknme

06-13-09, 02:57 AM

Well not to kick dust in anyone's face, but for what it's worth this transition has panned out very nicely for me.

My setup is an attic mounted North facing Channel Master 3679 ($10 on craigslist) with a 18db amp, 2 way -2.5db splitter, CM-7000 and DTT901.

The differences I have noticed:

Better Komo 4 40%ish to now 75%.

Better KONG 16.1, now actually viewable at 50%

Better KCPQ 9, 60% to 90%+

Better ch 11, now actually viewable.

BTW I live in Puyallup valley a few hundred feet from the River on the Fife side about 1mi. downriver of the Puyallup Fred Meyer so I'm VERY 'signal shaded' by North Hill/Milton/Edgewood etc. Guess I got lucky. No Seattle channels w/o the amp mind you.

buckfalfa

06-13-09, 03:13 AM

allen98311

06-13-09, 04:20 AM

Pulling in all the same channels out in Duvall with my old RatShack Yagi and 7777pre-amp.(4.1, 4.2, 5.1, 5.2, 7.1,7.2, 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 11.1, 13.1, 13.2, 16.1, 22.1, 33.1, 33.2, 33.3 are the ones I track. I get others but don't really track their reception.)

Having major problems getting Vista Media Center to recognize the stations that changed physical channel locations, however (13, 11, 9). I have edited my channelprefs.xml in eHome\EPG to reflect the new info (as usual, the downloaded EPG channel listings do not have the correct physical channel data). The channelprefs.xml no longer appears to work as an override, however. Any WA HTPC users out there have a workaround?

I think there is another XML file in that directory that needs to be edited as well. If you have TV Pack 2008, the XML files are no longer used, IIRC. In TV Pack 2008 and Windows 7, I had to manually add channels 9, 11, and 13 (Settings - TV - Guide - Add Missing Channels). I then disabled the old channels (the ones with listings) by right clicking them in the guide. Next I edit the new channels. I clicked on Edit Listings and selected the approiate channel listings and then select Combine option.

jaymw

06-13-09, 09:52 AM

Go to the channel list (Menu - 3 Setup - 2 System Setup - 2 Channel Setup - 1 Channel List) and delete the channels that moved, and then rescan. The DTVPals start using channel 70 if there is a duplicate virtual channel number.

Thanks allen98311!

That fixed this odd quirk just fine. I hadn't noticed that the 7x virtual channels were on 9 and 11 which moved. That might have been enough of a clue...

jaymw

06-13-09, 10:04 AM

Hi,

I live only a couple miles from Queen Anne, and assumed that 4 5 and 7 would be no trouble. I assumed all they would do is turn off the VHF analog transmitters, and leave the UHF ones alone.

But, KING did change something. Two converter boxes work fine, and the HP TV (which is a Sharp Aquos derivative) shows a 93% signal quality on UHF 48, so it is not a carrier problem. <snip>

Thanks,
Jay

Replying to myself, just for closure.

The short story: Doing a full rescan did re-enable KING just fine.

The long story: I didn't do a full rescan on my TV the first time. I outsmarted myself by just adding 9 and 11 manually. I have temporarily removed some attic antennas because the house just got re-roofed, and I didn't want to lose those channels in the scan. Apparently, something changed enough on KING 5 that the TV didn't like it anymore. More rescans to come, as I reconnect the other antennas.

Jay

tai4de2

06-13-09, 12:25 PM

Better ch 11, now actually viewable

Huh. Guess I'll need to look into my antenna then. Still not sure why I'd get 9 and 22 but not 11, since they're coming from the same place.

Milt99

06-13-09, 03:10 PM

I'm on Scenic Hill in Kent, using a roof mounted channel master and Samsung 260 tuner.
Last night all came in after re-scan except 13.
Signal strength on 11 was down 2 bars.
Re-scanned the upstairs tuner just now.
11 is coming in full strength, 13 kicks in and out with 1 bar on the signal strength.
WTH, would anything change? I've been getting these digital signals for years and now it looks like some of the stations have needed to tweak their signal or in the case of 13, it has fallen off the cliff.

quarque

06-13-09, 04:06 PM

twostar

06-13-09, 04:16 PM

Seems like i lost 11 and 13 completely. 9 comes in on one tuner (oddly the weaker of my two) and not the other.

I'm set up with a DB4 roof mounted antenna that had been picking up all the stations pretty reliably prior to switch. I was hoping the antenna would see down to 9 just fine but seems like maybe I was wrong.

I can't seem to find a spectrum chart for the antenna but the fact that one of my tuners grabs 9 fine seems to indicate that the antenna should be receiving the high vhf ok.

Interstingly enough, I now pick up 28 on both tuners whereas prior to the switch I could barely recieve 28 on my more sensitive tuner.

I'm in the eastgate area of bellevue and tvfool says 13, 20, and 28 have one edge between me and the towers but signal strength is ok. 13 didn't change physical locations did it? Any ideas why 9 would work on one tuner and not the other?

buckfalfa

06-13-09, 04:24 PM

allen: Thanks for the help with the HTPC- looks like I needed to re-add those channels after the atscprefs monkey business after all!

I spoke too soon on the reception for channel 11.1 out here in Duvall. Looks like I'm no longer able to lock a signal on that sucker with my current setup :(

McFly9000

06-13-09, 05:33 PM

11 and 13 are definitely weaker. I have a high gain high band VHF antenna up at about 85 feet and cannot get channel 13. I tried rotating it around to the point where I would lose 9 and 11, but 13 would still not lock in. The signal is jumpy and behaving like the very weak stations. This is odd because 13 (old channel 18) was always very solid at my location and I never had any trouble with it.

Looking at the FCC data, 9, 11 and 13 are running pretty low power:
9 = 21.7kW
11 = 12.5kW
13 = 30kW

Now who knows if that is what they are currently running, just what is shown in the FCC data. I am hoping 13 is not running at full power yet. I need that channel!

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 05:53 PM

30 kW is the power limit for their height.

11 has an application in for 100 kW but it is awaiting Canadian concurrence.

- Trip

waltc_wa

06-13-09, 05:58 PM

I think 11 might have transitioned later than 9 and 13. My 11 reception was good but then gone later. When I did a rescan for the second time today I got another 11.1 which is good to go with the other 11.1 with no signal which I was able to delete manually.

finlay648

06-13-09, 06:15 PM

I'm curious about why 9, 11 and 13 moved their digital broadcasting to VHF after the transition? Wouldn't it have been easier to stay on the UHF channels?

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 06:21 PM

The power bills are lower on VHF, and VHF channels bend around terrain better.

- Trip

twostar

06-13-09, 06:52 PM

30 kW is the power limit for their height.

11 has an application in for 100 kW but it is awaiting Canadian concurrence.

- Trip

the fcc database shows their old DTV (18) was 600kW ERP on the same site as now. Would they really be doing 600kW on 18 and then switch to only 30kW on 13?

Looks like the channel 18 was on a directional antenna while the ch 13 is non-directional. still seems like a large change in output and coverage. especially considering that analog 13 was licensed at 316kW on a non-directional.

kitsap2

06-13-09, 07:07 PM

What happened to KING? I received KING 5.1 and 5.2 just fine before the change over. Now, the signal fluctuates between low 80's to low 90's, and then, 0, no signal, picture lost, nothing. And then, back to picture and 80's to 90's strength.

What did KING do to their transmission site? I understand what's happened to KCPQ, we had solid signal on 13.1 and 13.2 until yesterday, now it's bare minimum reception at best.

tai4de2

06-13-09, 07:29 PM

I played around with antennae some more today and found that I could get solid reception on 11 in my upstairs room simply by hanging up one of those old "T"-style jobs with the flat white translucent sheathing.

But with the antenna that's been in my attic since forever, my TV's tuner shows 11's signal bouncing around between 50 and 75% with break-up... basically behaving like being on the fringe of my reception area. My HDHR gives more info, showing 100% signal but poor signal quality and 0% symbol quality.

Very strange... 9 and 22 are perfect, and are coming from the same place. I guess that 12.5Kw signal is just too weak.

But I'm in Kirkland with clear line of sight over the lake to Seattle. I need to get an antenna guy out here to adjust/boost things.