MBC 44.4 (the Korean-language station) has extremely quiet audio on my Zenith DTT901 converter box, but sounds normal on my CM-7000. has anyone else experienced this?

To those who have requested the modifications to the Channel Master 4221HD to improve reception of Channels 9, 11, and 13:
Give me a day or two to write up the mods and I will post the writeup here. :)

Richard
KR7L

Keep in mind when comparing analog and digital power levels that it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruits. That's about where it ends.

Let's talk about KCTS since it is what I know. Unless otherwise indicated all power levels are quoted are for ERP

The comission bases coverage, most of the time, on something referred to as a 90/90 curve. That means that 90% of the people are able to recover the signal 90% of the time. They call this city grade coverage. Then there's a 50/50 curve. 50% of the people 50% of the time. They call this grade 'B.'

In order to achieve this with analog I needed to maintain a 48db (At least I think it was 48db, I'll look it up.) signal to noise ratio. In order to acheive it with digital I need to maintain a 15db signal to noise ratio at any given location.

Using computer modeling, longley rice curves and, occasionaly, a ouji board, it was decided that I needed 318kw of power on analog and 7.3kw of power on digital. After being granted a CP to construct 7.3kw the Comission decided to allow stations to apply for "maximization" of their signals. Short version of the definition: "I could crank up the power until I started to interfere with signals from other stations." In my case that turned out to be 21.7kw.

Also, power, as measured for analog TV stations, is spread across the entire visual carrier. It was only at the tip of analog sync that I was actually making 318kw. Most of the time the average power the transmitter was producing was signigcantly lower. In digital it's spread across the entire 6 meg channel but the transmitter is producing something close to full power almost the entire time.

I don't know if any of this makes any sense and I'll try and answer whatever questions I can. Also, keep in mind, 10 million watts or 10 milliwatts, it is all about the receivers ability to recover the bit stream. If there is something wrong with the bit stream itself then all the power in the world won't makes a whoots worth of difference.

Good explanation Tim. Here is a couple more tidbits from the original digital assumptions:

Over 50 years ago when the original analog power/coverages were determined (Grade A/B) the assumption was the average consumer receiving TV Over The Air would have a horizontal receive antenna mounted at an average height of 35 feet Above Ground Level with a pre-assumed amount of receive antenna gain for VHF (later UHF). Fast forward to 1998, that same assumption was used when determining DTV coverage, plus the fact that digital modulation propagates differently than analog signals.

In regards to signal reception, here is where things get tricky.. Whereas everyone who has commented about the differences between VHF and UHF here is correct, there is one physics based factor to consider; that being field strength is field strength no matter what the frequency.

Even though VHF does propagate further than UHF, (transmit antenna to receive antenna) the field strength is less and the wavelength longer for VHF. The longer wavelength of VHF signals mean the greater chance of blockage from building structures and more opt to interference from electrical devices (aka impulse noise). A good example of this effect can be seen with AM radio signals going away under tunnels or in concrete buildings. The longer wavelength at AM broadcast frequencies is too long to get through the rebar grid in concrete walls. The higher-shorter wavelength FM radio, will penetrate overpasses and tunnels with no problem.

About 1-1/2 years ago I was visiting a channel 5 analog station in the South, who was planning to migrate back from their high-UHF channel back to their VHF channel 5 on the transition date. Their temporary transition DTV channel was something like channel 55 UHF, operating at an Effective Radiated Power of 1,000kW. This particular station example post-transition DTV power using the FCC coverage calculations to duplicate the channel 55 UHF and the old analog channel 5 100kw coverage was post-transition DTV at 10kW. I saw this scenario as a problem, because the reality is that probably less than 50% of the new DTV viewers would be using a suitable outdoor antenna mounted at 35 feet AGL, but rather would be using rabbit-ear antennas or ones mounted in the attic. The high power UHF station with a shorter wavelength would reach viewers in buildings more effectively than the lower field strength channel 5 VHF. By the looks of the scores of unhappy comments both on the AVS forum and the angry calls coming into the station, it appears that the laws of physics once again won out over the assumptions of the FCC.

The other challenge is that noise from electrical and consumer electronic devices create noise at VHF frequencies. When your receiver is trying to read a 6 MHZ wide signal using rabbit ears, then your neighbor fires up a blender, the noise can cause loss of signal because the low field strength from a station 20 miles away can't compete with a "spark-gap transmitter" 50 yards away.

The point is there are pro and cons to either spectrum. High power UHF stations with high field strength (assuming no multipath or overloading of a receiver close in) have the advantage in structure penetration. VHF has the advantage in pure distance per watt (assuming the frequency isn't too low and the receive antenna isn't indoors).

To those who have requested the modifications to the Channel Master 4221HD to improve reception of Channels 9, 11, and 13:
Give me a day or two to write up the mods and I will post the writeup here. :)
Richard
KR7L
Thanks much Richard.
Maybe I'll be able to get 13 again not that they deserve it.

tschall wrote:

As reception reports come into this forum and elsewhere we, as broadcasters, would find it extremly valuable to know where you are. Exact street addresses are not necessary but city, town, neighborhood, that sort of thing would sure be nice.

tim
------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim,
I'm on the southwest corner of QA Hill overlooking Pier 91, under the 'boulevard' retaining wall and although your UHF signal worked for me I no longer receive you nor channel 11, but I haven't built a high-band VHF antenna to try to receive you yet. For my first attempt, I'll build a 5 or 6 bar 'cut-to-channel 10' Yagi centered at 196 mHz and hopefully capture both signals.

I recently built a 15 bar Yagi for Channel 12 (35) a 12 bar Yagi for Channels 4 & 7 (38/39) and an 11 bar Yagi for 5 (48) with good results. Wish me luck!
Jim in Seattle :)

I'm down in PDX this weekend. I noticed their local ION affiliate KPXG is 720p. I watched "Assassins" in HD. Any idea when/if KWPX will broadcast in HD?

quarque wrote:

Jim - you are one determined guy! I wish I could help you with a source but I've done almost nothing with dishes or mounts. Some thoughts come to mind: home centers that sell antennas, Radio Shack, abandoned houses with unused dishes (?). Good luck!

P.S. the tilting idea has not been widely accepted on AVS but I know it works in some situations.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry,
I built simple 10 degree mounts to tilt two Yagis and I'll test them soon. It will be interesting to see if there is any improvement in signal reception. Again Guys, thanks for the help. Photo is attached below.
Jim

I'm down in PDX this weekend. I noticed their local ION affiliate KPXG is 720p. I watched "Assassins" in HD. Any idea when/if KWPX will broadcast in HD?

http://www.ionmarketplace.com/article.php?secID=0&indID=142

It looks like Seattle is in the second phase for ION HD, sometime in 2009.
They are also going to broadcast Qubo and ION Life in HD

They are also going to broadcast Qubo and ION Life in HD

Not over the air, they're not. They'll be available to cable in HD, if any cable company wants to carry them in HD.

- Trip

Greetings All:

It's been awhile since I've logged into the AVS forums, so long that I didn't have my user name and pswd, so I created a new one so as to answer some questions, and clear up any miss-information that has been posted here.

Sometimes people who work for us don't have all the answers because we don't tell them what we are doing until we actually make a final decision TO do it. Things change very fast around here, and what was a plan today can go away tomorrow...That's just the way it is. It's not a matter of employees not knowing what is going on, it's a matter of what we as managers want disseminated. Rumors posted on public forums easily become to be considered as fact, just because it was posted. So, you need to take what gets posted with a grain of salt as the people posting may not really be employees of the station, or they may be disgruntled former employees. SO, believe what you read at your own risk, and know that we will not be held to anything just because it was posted here and people thought it was fact.

KCPQ broadcasts on VHF channel 13, from our tower on Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA as it always has. We will not be moving the transmitter, nor will we turn back on the transitional digital channel that were were on previously...UHF channel 18 is gone forever.

KMYQ broadcasts on UHF channel 25 from our tower on Capitol Hill. It displays on digital receivers as 22-1. There will be no change to KMYQ other than increasing power to 1MW.

We are petitioning for a digital translater for KCPQ that would be broadcast from Capitol Hill on UHF channel 22, using the transmitter we used to use for analog KMYQ. We need to make some changes to the transmitter to be able to use it for digital service, but we are looking at doing this, IF the FCC grants us the digital translator authorization.

Translators are by design, low power...but they should not be confused with low-power televison which is another service entirely. The power level that the FCC has initially authorized for digital translators is low...15KW to be exact. That power level would make the digital translator function to service the core area of downtown Seattle only. Accordingly, we will be petitioning the FCC to see if we increase (maybe double) that power level. As digital translators are a totally new service (having just been authorized), the FCC may or may not grant the power level increase...Engineering studies have to be completed before any such change in power levels would be authorised.

Anyway, I'll check in from time to time...Hopefully I'll be able to answer questions as they arise.

Regards,
JRZ - Asst. Chief - TTNW

KCPQ-ACE wrote:

... KCPQ broadcasts on VHF channel 13, from our tower on Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA as it always has. We will not be moving the transmitter, nor will we turn back on the transitional digital channel that were were on previously...UHF channel 18 is gone forever. ...

Regards,
JRZ - Asst. Chief - TTNW
---------------------------------------------------------------
JRZ,
I'm on QA Hill and currently receiving an excellent signal from 13 on a Channel Master CM 4228 8-bay, aimed at KIRO's channel 26 translator K54AO in Bremerton. No problems for me. Thanks for the Accu-weather subchannel, and are their plans to add other subchannels? Thanks in advance,
Jim

The recent KCPQ move to VHF doesn't work well for me (located north of Redmond on a hill). I still receive it but it's a close call, and it's probably becoming worse once the Seahawks season starts (since the weather is not that stable come fall...)
I'm in a pretty good spot otherwise as I can pickup a total of 34 (sub) stations locally. All used to come in in the mid to high 90s except KBTC, which is stable in the mid 80s. KCPQ used to work very well, but not anymore. KCTS and KSTW are perfectly fine, KSTW was always good, and it hasn't changed, KSTW is probably even a bit better now (I think it moved from 92 to 98, which doesn't really matter).
I'm using a 4228 plus a 7777 located in the attic. I could obviously move it outside, but I'm somewhat reluctant to do this for one channel. Maybe I'm trying to move it again, if I get bored (went to that game 2 years ago, and had everything optimized...). Oh well...

Can we get someone that knows what's going on at KOMO in here? They must have changed the way they did something because I was getting 4.1 and 4.2 fine before the rollover. Now I get nothing after rescanning twice and fiddling with my antenna cable a lot. I also don't get why DTV 4-0 shows on the channel indicator when hitting the 4 button now rather than DTV 4-1.

Short of buying an indoor antenna at Radio Shack to see if that works, I don't know what to do. I tried a Terk directional fishbone type before and had to return it because it didn't work well. I may try a UHF/rabbit ear type this time though. The guy at the lower Queen Anne RS store showed me how well that type works in their store for KOMO, and I live only about 8 blks SE of their store.

Can someone post a link to FCC info where I can find what KOMO has done if anything to change the way they broadcast? Thanks in advance for any help, this forum rocks!

And a special shout out to Dan Kurts, whom I know is doing heroic things wherever his superpowers take him. ;)

...
Can someone post a link to FCC info where I can find what KOMO has done if anything to change the way they broadcast? Thanks in advance for any help, this forum rocks!
...

For information on KOMO: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=komo (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=komo)

FCC Search: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html. Just type in the call letters for the station, or search by state / city.

Listers,

I noticed Friday when I rescanned to reset Channels 9, 11 and 13, my set detected KIRO-7's translator (26) in Bremerton/Silverdale first, then when rescanning to add Channel 12 (35) on a second antenna, it detected KIRO's main transmitter (39.1-39.2) off of the side of my Project-35 Yagi at a rock-solid signal level of 10. This is new 'behavior' and it was quite a surprise to me! Does anyone know if they bumped up their ERP and to what level?

Secondly, 7.2 RTN (The Retro Channel) is now calling itself RTV, not to be confused with the silicone rubber gorp I use to waterproof my outdoor antenna fittings! :D
Jim

Hello Everyone.....
Ahhh...the speculations run rampant. KSTW switched over to our permanently assigned digital channel 11, with a TPO of 12.5Kw from the top of our tower on capitol hill at high noon on Friday. We are having NO TECHNICAL ISSUES. Our EVM and S/N are actually better on 11.
I personally worked the local phone bank this weekend and took calls with folks who got some stations before and now don't. get 9 and 11 good but not 13. get 13 but not 11...on and on. Most of the time....adjusting the antenna and re-scanning results in receiving most of the stations most of the time.
Realize this...just because several stations broadcast from towers real close to each other, doesn't mean these signals reach your antenna at the same exact time. Reflections, especially for VHF stations like ours now become a bigger factor when tuning in and adjusting antennas.
I live 20 or so miles South of Seattle and have a large UHF only antenna mounted in an attic with a VHF/UHF low noise pre-amplifier connected and I am still receiving 34 digital OTA stations after the transition. Now, I had to move the UHF antenna around a little bit to get all 3 VHF stations to come in better....yes...the VHF stations are lower in gain on a UHF only antenna....but it can be done. My convertor displays both a signal strength and quality of signal meter...so working these two factors together I find you can compromise lower signal strength for better quality signals and be OK.
FWIW...I found from callers with indoor rabbit ear antennas...they need not be extended their full length as they were designed to capture all the VHF band....but as the high VHF channels are shorter in wavelength, having folks reduce the length and re-orient the "ears" seemed to help most people who called in.
Another common issue I heard with callers regarding outdoor antennas is that they are not using pre-amplifiers mounted close to the antenna and then they come down 30 or more feet of coax into splitters......I strongly advise acquiring a pre-amp.
Lastly, KSTW knew the challenges that the lower assigned power of 12.5Kw for digital channel 11 was OK on paper, but in reality, we need a bigger blow torch to assure indoor reception in the core viewing areas and that 's why we've had an application into the FCC for 100Kw since last year. We knew the Canadians would probably take their time on approval...and they are...but we are converting our analog ch.11 transmitter into a 100Kw capable DTV transmitter next month.
IMHO the VHF digital reception issue is going to be pushed back hard to the FCC on a nationwide basis and there will be changes made to allow stations like us to serve our viewers better with more power and better coverage...and it will be soon.

Ron D.
CE, KSTW :)

rdiotte wrote:

... "KSTW switched over to our permanently assigned digital channel 11, with a TPO of 12.5Kw from the top of our tower on capitol hill at high noon on Friday. We are having NO TECHNICAL ISSUES. both a signal strength and quality of signal meter...so working these two factors together I find you can compromise lower signal strength for better quality signals and be OK. ...

Lastly, KSTW knew the challenges that the lower assigned power of 12.5Kw for digital channel 11 was OK on paper, but in reality, we need a bigger blow torch to assure indoor reception in the core viewing areas and that 's why we've had an application into the FCC for 100Kw since last year. We knew the Canadians would probably take their time on approval...and they are...but we are converting our analog ch.11 transmitter into a 100Kw capable DTV transmitter next month.
IMHO the VHF digital reception issue is going to be pushed back hard to the FCC on a nationwide basis and there will be changes made to allow stations like us to serve our viewers better with more power and better coverage...and it will be soon."

Ron D.
CE, KSTW :)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ron,
Thank you for the update. I am on the SW corner of QA Hill (blocked by 60 to 40 feet of hillside, depending on my antenna height) and receiving your analog signal was always a nightmare for me, so I'm looking forward to capturing your digital signal. Currently, I don't have a high-band VHF antenna in the air so I cannot receive 9 nor 11. According to the TVFOOL website I am 3 miles away from your transmitter. I am aware of the propogational advantages of VHF over UHF and receiving 'digital 9' before the transition was not a problem here when it was on the air. I will be building a 'cut-to-Channel 10' Yagi this week to try to snag both stations.

I hope KSTW is allowed to jump to 100 kw, but I think it is important KCTS also gets permission to raise their ERP. I can forsee problems for locals trying to receive a 21.7 kw station and a 100 kw blowtorch on the same compass bearing on the same antenna.

Simply, if I build a high-gain 10 bar Yagi to receive both of you and only one of you gets to bump up your ERP, the higher signal level from one station could require attenuation and odds are (if attenuated) I will lose the other station, unless I remove it. Then, I'll lose the stronger station do to overload! Aaack! :eek: :D

Jim

Back in the local OTA club, as I've finally reconnected my HD receiver to my projector (football season is coming, y'know), and get KOMO, KING, and KIRO quite easily, but getting nothing from KCPQ or KSTW whatsoever.

KCPQ putting a translator on Capitol Hill may increase the number of households being able to receive the signal, but it still won't reach those of us towards the east, especially here in SE King county. If stations are going to go through the expense & trouble of putting up translators, it seems to me it would make more sense to put them where more people will be served, like on one of the higher hills/mountains to the east. West Tiger already has towers, so some infrastructure should be there.

JRZ, et al:

It seems the REC website is a wee bit optomistic regarding the Capitol Hill 're-transmitter' for Channel 13. Reported at 15 kw ERP, it covers from Capitol Hill, Seattle all the way to Olympia! That is amazing efficency! LOL! I gotta get me one of those stuperior transmittin' de-vices! :p
Jim

http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=&call=KCPQ&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

just tried repointing the antenna and no luck. managed to get the tv to reallize there's actually a signal on that frequency but no bars or video. No channel 13 here it seems.

Ron Diotte et al,

Is there any way for consumers to pressure the FCC into faster action on power increases etc. that would make DTV more usable for more people? Or does the FCC not really care about the current state of DTV as it impacts massive numbers of viewers who can't get a picture any more? Many people are doing all the right things and still can't get reliable reception.

Here are the instructions for modifying your Channel Master 4221HD UHf antenna to improve its performance on channels 9, 11, and 13. It is definitely a compromise but it works for me.

If you decide to modify your 4221, I would love to hear from you.

Richard

Ron Diotte et al,

Is there any way for consumers to pressure the FCC into faster action on power increases etc. that would make DTV more usable for more people? Or does the FCC not really care about the current state of DTV as it impacts massive numbers of viewers who can't get a picture any more? Many people are doing all the right things and still can't get reliable reception.

I heard that the FCC is testing a power boost in Chicago for upper-VHF tomorrow. Now if that isn't fast for the FCC, nothing is.

I'm hopeful that if that test is successful, the FCC will let upper-VHF stations boost power more ASAP, though I really don't know anything for sure.

- Trip

I got a few dozen calls over the last few days. All were on the VHF channels being gone. Not too surprising. What was, though, was my reception in Federal Way. When ch's 9 & 11 did their tests with limited power around the holidays, I got pretty good results and levels. I normally got both of them about -5db and -8db, respectively. Waveshape on scope wasn't flat, but very respectable and my H20 sat box, which isn't that swift, did fine. The tests, which I recall were at lower power levels, only dropped by a few db's, waveshape almost identical. I thought we would be in good shape. My antenna is a 4221, no amp, some trees. Now both ch's are way down, ch 9 at -19db, barely locks, but steady. Ch11 below -22db, with a few peaks above. (My meter only reads to -22db) It will not lock, just occasional streaks of a tiled picture. I thought we would be doing much better than that.
Ch13 completely gone. The analog VHF ch13 did come in pretty good. As I recall, they transmitted in a circular pattern, and required an antenna that looked like X elements on a 8ft boom. They quit making the antenna back in the late 80's. Regular horizontal cut for 13 yagi's didn't help, still had ghosting. I don't remember what their analog levels were on the 4221, but obviously can't compare it to digital now. Would like to know if they are still using the same style antenna or something new. Have a bunch of rework stacking up from old customers. I'll try and call ch13 tomorrow.
In any case, if Ron is checking in here, curious as to why the reception got worse on ch11.

Greetings All:

It's been awhile since I've logged into the AVS forums, so long that I didn't have my user name and pswd, so I created a new one so as to answer some questions, and clear up any miss-information that has been posted here.

Sometimes people who work for us don't have all the answers because we don't tell them what we are doing until we actually make a final decision TO do it. Things change very fast around here, and what was a plan today can go away tomorrow...That's just the way it is. It's not a matter of employees not knowing what is going on, it's a matter of what we as managers want disseminated. Rumors posted on public forums easily become to be considered as fact, just because it was posted. So, you need to take what gets posted with a grain of salt as the people posting may not really be employees of the station, or they may be disgruntled former employees. SO, believe what you read at your own risk, and know that we will not be held to anything just because it was posted here and people thought it was fact.

KCPQ broadcasts on VHF channel 13, from our tower on Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA as it always has. We will not be moving the transmitter, nor will we turn back on the transitional digital channel that were were on previously...UHF channel 18 is gone forever.

KMYQ broadcasts on UHF channel 25 from our tower on Capitol Hill. It displays on digital receivers as 22-1. There will be no change to KMYQ other than increasing power to 1MW.

We are petitioning for a digital translater for KCPQ that would be broadcast from Capitol Hill on UHF channel 22, using the transmitter we used to use for analog KMYQ. We need to make some changes to the transmitter to be able to use it for digital service, but we are looking at doing this, IF the FCC grants us the digital translator authorization.

Translators are by design, low power...but they should not be confused with low-power televison which is another service entirely. The power level that the FCC has initially authorized for digital translators is low...15KW to be exact. That power level would make the digital translator function to service the core area of downtown Seattle only. Accordingly, we will be petitioning the FCC to see if we increase (maybe double) that power level. As digital translators are a totally new service (having just been authorized), the FCC may or may not grant the power level increase...Engineering studies have to be completed before any such change in power levels would be authorised.

Anyway, I'll check in from time to time...Hopefully I'll be able to answer questions as they arise.

Regards,
JRZ - Asst. Chief - TTNW

JRZ
Thanks for the update. Answers a lot of questions. Didn't see your post until now, way too many irons in the fire.
Are you still transmitting ch13 in a circular, or elliptical pattern, as before?
When you do field testing, what antenna do you use?
Again, thanks for the information. Helps me put smiles on customers !
Dan

Here are the instructions for modifying your Channel Master 4221HD UHf antenna to improve its performance on channels 9, 11, and 13. It is definitely a compromise but it works for me.

If you decide to modify your 4221, I would love to hear from you.

Richard

Richard
EXCELLENT mod !!
I'll try it out on my older 4221. It has the old "chicken wire/bedspring" type backplane, which is wider than the newer one. We'll see what gives.
I'll also try a new one.
Dan

Can we get someone that knows what's going on at KOMO in here? They must have changed the way they did something because I was getting 4.1 and 4.2 fine before the rollover. Now I get nothing after rescanning twice and fiddling with my antenna cable a lot. I also don't get why DTV 4-0 shows on the channel indicator when hitting the 4 button now rather than DTV 4-1.

Short of buying an indoor antenna at Radio Shack to see if that works, I don't know what to do. I tried a Terk directional fishbone type before and had to return it because it didn't work well. I may try a UHF/rabbit ear type this time though. The guy at the lower Queen Anne RS store showed me how well that type works in their store for KOMO, and I live only about 8 blks SE of their store.

Can someone post a link to FCC info where I can find what KOMO has done if anything to change the way they broadcast? Thanks in advance for any help, this forum rocks!

And a special shout out to Dan Kurts, whom I know is doing heroic things wherever his superpowers take him. ;)

Hey Hi Def !
No superpowers, just too much time on the roof!
Did you get the KOMO prob sorted?
Dan

A couple of reasons why the high VHF stations on digital may be more challenging to receive now are...
1. they are subject to reflections more easily than the UHF station signals are.
2. regarding why the test periods on early mornings gave good reception but not now.....daytime terrestrial noise....much more prevalent with the the sun shining. I found that during the night tests I not only could receive the VHF stations in Seattle but could pick up other digital stations that never come in during the daytime, like KVOS, KBCB and even some analog stations from Canada...that are there at night...but nowhere to be found during daylight.

Dan K....I believe you live about a half mile north of me in FW. Again, I had to fiddle with my Televe UHF only antenna in an attic, but I do get all three high V stations...albeit they are only half the signal strength of the U's.

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

MBC 44.4 (the Korean-language station) has extremely quiet audio on my Zenith DTT901 converter box, but sounds normal on my CM-7000. has anyone else experienced this?

The Zenith has an option for stereo or mono output (surf around in the menu for it). The mono output may be about twice as loud for you.

With the switch to VHF, I had lost 9, 11 and 13 on my WMC machine. I assumed it was the tuner because my d2a converter boxes didn't have any problems with the transition. Turned out to be software. I'm now using TV Pack 2008 and now I'm getting 9, 11, 13 and 33 (as well as the rest of the big stations).

So, no change to CM 4221 antenna, no change to tuners, I'm a happy camper.

The other big change with TV Pack 2008 is that instead of the inane numbering scheme

1041, 1042, 1051, 1052, ...

you get the same number scheme everybody else uses

4.1, 4.2, 5.1, 5.2,...

and you get the guide information for all of the sub-channels without having to hack the registry.

After I made the switch last night, I discovered that I lost KING and KONG ("Twas beauty that killed the beast"). A little troubleshooting revealed that analog 5 (nightlight), digital 5 and digital 16 all went off the air last night around the same time that I made the switch.

Omni pattern - cut 13 antenna

Can anyone give me advice on receiving local channels in Issaquah? Specifically on the sound end of Lake Samammish just north of I-90 (South Cove area). Most of the resources online indicate that it would be difficult if not impossible to get all four major networks. Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to waste time and energy on it if it is a going to be a fruitless effort.

JRZ
Thanks for the update. Answers a lot of questions. Didn't see your post until now, way too many irons in the fire.
Are you still transmitting ch13 in a circular, or elliptical pattern, as before?
When you do field testing, what antenna do you use?
Again, thanks for the information. Helps me put smiles on customers !
Dan

Dan, did you mean circular polarization?

From where I am, roughly 47.77 & -122.24, it works fine mounting on the roof directly into the dense of some huge maples about 40ft away. 13 is a bit weaker than the old 18, 9 and 11 seem stronger than their old selves (but don't hold me to it.) 22 seems choppy, an older TV (gen 2 tuner?) could not tune to it.

Side note: I had to reset one of my sets (Panasonic) before rescanning as it remembered the olds and got mixed up left and right. If you have to do the same, remember to write down your setting unless you want to mug around with those again.

I got a few dozen calls over the last few days. All were on the VHF channels being gone. Not too surprising. What was, though, was my reception in Federal Way. When ch's 9 & 11 did their tests with limited power around the holidays, I got pretty good results and levels. I normally got both of them about -5db and -8db, respectively. Waveshape on scope wasn't flat, but very respectable and my H20 sat box, which isn't that swift, did fine. The tests, which I recall were at lower power levels, only dropped by a few db's, waveshape almost identical. I thought we would be in good shape. My antenna is a 4221, no amp, some trees. Now both ch's are way down, ch 9 at -19db, barely locks, but steady. Ch11 below -22db, with a few peaks above. (My meter only reads to -22db) It will not lock, just occasional streaks of a tiled picture. I thought we would be doing much better than that.
Ch13 completely gone. The analog VHF ch13 did come in pretty good. As I recall, they transmitted in a circular pattern, and required an antenna that looked like X elements on a 8ft boom. They quit making the antenna back in the late 80's. Regular horizontal cut for 13 yagi's didn't help, still had ghosting. I don't remember what their analog levels were on the 4221, but obviously can't compare it to digital now. Would like to know if they are still using the same style antenna or something new. Have a bunch of rework stacking up from old customers. I'll try and call ch13 tomorrow.
In any case, if Ron is checking in here, curious as to why the reception got worse on ch11.

KCTS's signal, other than the lineup, is identical to what we were doing during the tests.

Here are the instructions for modifying your Channel Master 4221HD UHf antenna to improve its performance on channels 9, 11, and 13. It is definitely a compromise but it works for me.

If you decide to modify your 4221, I would love to hear from you.

Richard

Darn, I've got the old version. I just bit the bullet and ordered the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF HD Yagi for Channels 7-13 (Y5-7-13). It was cheap and known to work in my area.

I'll report back my results once it shows up and I install it.

I set up my HT about a year ago and dropped DirecTV and just used Netflix instead. It's been working out great, but since I'm getting a new PC soon, I decided I should add an OTA antenna to take advantage of the media center functionality. (Using my Xbox 360 as the media extender.) Missing the NBA playoffs has caused me to re-think my Netflix-only strategy. :p

I tried to do some due diligence reading on the forums but got lost very quickly. I'm hoping someone can tell me:

1. What antenna I should get
2. If there is any other equipment I need. For example, I assume I need some kind of tuner in the new PC, but are there any preferred types/things to look for?

Here is the signal strength map for my home: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c534b316e2765b (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc534b316e2765b).

Since I don't like having to settle, I'd like to get as many channels as I can. :) I'm planning on installing this on my roof.

If there's any other info that you would need to help with suggestions, please let me know.



I posted the same question (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1154772) in HDTV Technical, but I thought there might be a Puget Sound area factor I need to take into consideration, with all of the tall trees, recent windstorms, etc. Someone from that forum recommended a Winegard 7694 for the antenna, but I wanted to see if anyone disagreed with that. For the tuner, I got a recommendation for a dual tuner Hauppauge.



Thanks!

Hey Hi Def !
No superpowers, just too much time on the roof!
Did you get the KOMO prob sorted?
DanLOL, yeah, I don't think anyone has all this stuff figured out yet.

No, not sorted yet, the set still tries to scan DTV 4-0 vs 4-1 for some reason. I haven't quite figured out how to digest that FCC info allen linked to (thanks btw allen) as far as before and after rollover comparisons, but I figured someone here would know if KOMO changed the way they're broadcasting and how.

I just don't get why I got it in fine before, but not now. Since lots of stations are fluctuating in power levels and going from VHF to UHF though, that might explain it.

If I can't find out more here or from the engineers at KOMO, I'll probably just try the little UHF/rabbit antenna Radio Shack suggested. They were all sold out except for the display model, but are getting more in this week.

Sadly I've noticed in the last couple days my reception on other channels has faded, even on weekends, when I usually get good reception. KONG (16.1) and even NBC and CBS are getting more finicky on how I position my antenna cable. KONG just won't come in at all sometimes now, in fact most of the time moving the cable does no good.

Can't wait until our apt building gets the satellite service they're promising. There will no doubt be many growing pains with OTA until then.

Just got back from a long weekend vacationing, and now I can confirm that I will need to make some modification to my set-up in order to once again receive channels 9 and 11. None of my receivers will even pick up a hint of a signal... although the Samsung DTB-H260F did "pause" for a few seconds on channel 9 while scanning, maybe it smelled something and gave up.

Anyhow, I'm currently using a Channel Master 4228 antenna and a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. I'm hoping that getting a VHF antenna http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13 may be all I need. But, can I use my 7777 to combine the signal? If so, do I need to keep the antennas a certain distance apart? Use the same length of coax to each antenna?

Any advice appreciated! Thanks!

OK, just got off the phone with Trent the engineer at KOMO. He said they haven't changed anything in the way they broadcast (except shutting off the analog I guess). His guess was I'm getting too much signal and a small loop/rabbit antenna with attenuator may indeed help.

What I don't get is, why, if they haven't changed anything, I would be getting too much signal now, but not before? Unless of course the previous simulcast of analog and HD resulted in less power on the HD signal. Anyways, I'll report back as to whether the little Radio Shack antenna works.

Just got back from a long weekend vacationing, and now I can confirm that I will need to make some modification to my set-up in order to once again receive channels 9 and 11. None of my receivers will even pick up a hint of a signal... although the Samsung DTB-H260F did "pause" for a few seconds on channel 9 while scanning, maybe it smelled something and gave up.

Anyhow, I'm currently using a Channel Master 4228 antenna and a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. I'm hoping that getting a VHF antenna http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13 may be all I need. But, can I use my 7777 to combine the signal? If so, do I need to keep the antennas a certain distance apart? Use the same length of coax to each antenna?

Any advice appreciated! Thanks!

I just added that same VHF-Hi antenna to my CM4248 UHF antenna, all mounted in my attic. The antennas are actually only a few feet apart, which isn't ideal. And the CM7777 Pre-Amp does indeed have separate VHF and UHF inputs. There's a switch inside that lets you set the preamp to either combine or seperate those inputs.

So far I'm getting 9, 11, and 13 with strong signals at about the same readings as "pre-VHF" days on my DirecTV HD DVRs and HR10-250 Tivo off-air tuners.

Quick question for Ron at KSTW (or anyone else who might know!)

I rescanned ANALOG today, becuase I wanted to see this "nightlight" loop playing on KING & KBTC. As expected, I got to see the promo video on KING & KBTC. The grainy signal I've always seen from CKVU was better than I remember it being...

Then my set locked on, solid, to a grainy, but watchable analog Channel 11... on Channel 62?! Are you guys still running an analog translator somewhere?

Richard
EXCELLENT mod !!
I'll try it out on my older 4221. It has the old "chicken wire/bedspring" type backplane, which is wider than the newer one. We'll see what gives.
I'll also try a new one.
Dan

Dan, if you do try the mod, it would be good to get some "before" and "after" signal measurements on 9, 11, and 13 with your gear to compare to the antenna modeling software. I was not able to do it before the switch over from UHF to VHF due to equipment limitations. :cool:

Richard

Quick question for Ron at KSTW (or anyone else who might know!)

I rescanned ANALOG today, becuase I wanted to see this "nightlight" loop playing on KING & KBTC. As expected, I got to see the promo video on KING & KBTC. The grainy signal I've always seen from CKVU was better than I remember it being...

Then my set locked on, solid, to a grainy, but watchable analog Channel 11... on Channel 62?! Are you guys still running an analog translator somewhere?
K62FS is a translator station for KSTW in Port Townsend

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=K62FS

Speaking of which, when are the low powered analog stations required to vacate channels 52 through 69?

Quick question for Ron at KSTW (or anyone else who might know!)

I rescanned ANALOG today, becuase I wanted to see this "nightlight" loop playing on KING & KBTC. As expected, I got to see the promo video on KING & KBTC. The grainy signal I've always seen from CKVU was better than I remember it being...

Then my set locked on, solid, to a grainy, but watchable analog Channel 11... on Channel 62?! Are you guys still running an analog translator somewhere?

Here is a list of Translators in the area: http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/tvxlatorswa.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/tvxlatorswa.htm)

K62FS ch 62 is broadcasting from Port Townsend.

I thought all channels above 52 (700 MHz) were sold, so I wonder how much longer those channels will be there.

K62FS is a translator station for KSTW in Port Townsend

K62FS ch 62 is broadcasting from Port Townsend.

Wow. I'm a bit surprised to see that in my neighborhood.

I'm a few hundred feet north of the towers on Capitol Hill!

Thanks for the info. :)

I just added that same VHF-Hi antenna to my CM4248 UHF antenna, all mounted in my attic. The antennas are actually only a few feet apart, which isn't ideal. And the CM7777 Pre-Amp does indeed have separate VHF and UHF inputs. There's a switch inside that lets you set the preamp to either combine or seperate those inputs.

So far I'm getting 9, 11, and 13 with strong signals at about the same readings as "pre-VHF" days on my DirecTV HD DVRs and HR10-250 Tivo off-air tuners.

Thanks for the quick reply! Looks like I'll have to get that VHF antenna and spend some time on the roof. Oh well, at least it's not February and raining all the time... :)

A couple of reasons why the high VHF stations on digital may be more challenging to receive now are...
1. they are subject to reflections more easily than the UHF station signals are.
2. regarding why the test periods on early mornings gave good reception but not now.....daytime terrestrial noise....much more prevalent with the the sun shining. I found that during the night tests I not only could receive the VHF stations in Seattle but could pick up other digital stations that never come in during the daytime, like KVOS, KBCB and even some analog stations from Canada...that are there at night...but nowhere to be found during daylight.

Dan K....I believe you live about a half mile north of me in FW. Again, I had to fiddle with my Televe UHF only antenna in an attic, but I do get all three high V stations...albeit they are only half the signal strength of the U's.

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

Ron
I'm just at the crest of the 13th fairway, and can see the top of the Columbia Tower downtown, if I stand out in the fairway, but house sits back in the trees just a little bit. Enough it makes the Tiger Mt ch's chopped up a bit and hard to lock on. Don't watch them, but keep tabs on the readings.

I did my measurements around midnight, not too far off, timewise, from when you did your first test. What I thought you said then was power was at 20%, or some small amount. I was getting at least 10db higher then, and locked solid. Below about -15db or so, my sat box whimps out. Your waveshape is very close to previous, too. Nothing here has changed.....

Oh, well. Heading over to Duvall Friday, should be interesting to see what it looks like there, now.
Thanks again for the updates.
Dan

I'm a bit disgusted at the surprise switch to VHF by 9, 11 and 13 last Friday. I wrote them the following, but doubt it will do much good:

I’ve been watching your digital stations for several years.
I live in Marysville and have a 30’ high mast and a deep fringe UHF antenna and mast mounted UHF amplifier.
It has taken me several years to get just the right antenna and accessories positioned just right to reliably receive the available digital channels in the Seattle area. Channels 9 and 13 have always been among the strongest signals with 11 becoming reliable within the last 3 years or so.

However, with the switch to digital on June 12, your channels 9, 11 and 13 went dark.
Apparently you switched from a UHF digital broadcast signal to VHF.
In all the repetitive advertising over the last year about the change, you never mentioned that key piece of information on air!

Viewers, like myself with a UHF antenna must buy a UHF/VHF antenna if we want to watch your programming.

Unfortunately, combination antennas don’t have the maximum range of a UHF only antenna – not to mention that I would have to buy a new amplifier as well. Also, I’m reluctant to risk a degradation of the signal from the other major stations (4,5,7). As it is, when my neighbor mows his lawn once a week, my audio and video begin to break up. I’m not so concerned about the other channels (the religious stations, Spanish stations, Korean stations and shopping channel which have always had an excellent signal strength here but have programming that doesn’t interest most viewers.)

Have you considered UHF repeaters in local areas, or making boxed DVD sets of your popular shows available to local libraries?

Well I can now say that I'm starting to feel people's pain on 13, after initially thinking I was getting it in solid. Every time I try to get in 13 now, I will get at best steady video, usually with no audio, and my TV will keep turning itself on and off. Worse yet, while this takes place, my remote doesn't work, so I have to just sit there until I can finally switch to another channel when it does start working again. This is utterly ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Years and years have gone by since stations were first preparing for digital broadcast. They assured the government and consumers they were ready for the rollover. Instead of using what they knew to be working while the analog/digital simulcasts were being broadcast, they choose to experiment for the rollover.

Where tell me is the sense in this? All along the government has said we were not ready because not enough consumers had prepared and/or bought into the technology. Little did we know the ones least prepared would be those broadcasting. Sorry for sounding sarcastic and pessimistic, but you have to admit there's a lot of truth in these words.

I'm tempted to look for a cable deal while I wait for our building to get satellite, but I really don't want to buy into Broadstripe's service and be endlessly pestered with them trying to get me to sign back up after I end the service, which is overpriced and inadequate to begin with. If Broadstripe weren't the only service available here though, I'd consider it.

Can anyone give me advice on receiving local channels in Issaquah? Specifically on the sound end of Lake Samammish just north of I-90 (South Cove area). Most of the resources online indicate that it would be difficult if not impossible to get all four major networks. Any help would be appreciated. I don't want to waste time and energy on it if it is a going to be a fruitless effort.

brad880
Been there, done that. Have tried all around you, very hit/miss. Have several along the eastern shore at SE 33rd, and SE 26th. Barely work, and one has lost some channels over the years as trees on west hill/Factoria area have grown. Surveys west of the park and north of I-90 were pretty bad.
As always, never say never, but I would try and talk you out of it. It might work with right magic, but the trees, west up the hill to 156th, aren't getting smaller and fewer......
Dan

Omni pattern - cut 13 antenna

KCPQ-ACE
Thanks
Dan

Dan, did you mean circular polarization?

Spike89
Yes, like a corkscrew looking at the transmit antenna. Back in the early 80's, I think (getting harder to do!) when ch13 moved to Gold Mt, they started doing it. Regular antennas with horizontal elements just didn't get a ghost free picture. I even had a cut for ch13, 15 element, 12ft long boom mounted on top of the Pike Place Market Condo's, 20 stories up, looking right across the Sound, line of sight. No matter what I tried, ghosting. Swing it around to ch7, 9 or 11, clear and clean. When I had a British made Blake JBX21 antenna for testing, I flipped it around to ch13, and looked at the analog channel, almost perfect. I was in West Seattle at the time, so it worked pretty good by being close. Key was the X type elements. After CH13 made the move, Channel Master had a special antenna, 6ft boom with about 6 or 8 X-type elements and a similar pickup, with another larger rear backplane, again rotated. At the time, had very few requests for the add on and signal injector. A few years later they stopped making it. In all the installs over the subsequent years where I should have had a good clean analog ch13, it never came in quite right. It DID look good with the special antenna.
I was told by the engineer at the time, the reason for circular was that was the way they did it in Europe and it helped to get rid of ghosting by reducing reflections and other problems.

So, that's why the question. Since ch13 used ch18 for HD, haven't looked at the analog at all. Now that they've switched, just wondered how they were doing it. Always want to try and maximize the reception with the proper type antenna.
Dan

KCTS's signal, other than the lineup, is identical to what we were doing during the tests.

tschall
I thought that was the what you had mentioned last fall, but results now are puzzling. I've ordered some new hi-band VHF stuff to play with, along with some new combo models to try.
Gonna be interesting to see what works where. Sure makes the game more fun, though.
Keep you posted on what works.
Thanks for the info.
Dan

I set up my HT about a year ago and dropped DirecTV and just used Netflix instead. It's been working out great, but since I'm getting a new PC soon, I decided I should add an OTA antenna to take advantage of the media center functionality. (Using my Xbox 360 as the media extender.) Missing the NBA playoffs has caused me to re-think my Netflix-only strategy. :p

I tried to do some due diligence reading on the forums but got lost very quickly. I'm hoping someone can tell me:

1. What antenna I should get
2. If there is any other equipment I need. For example, I assume I need some kind of tuner in the new PC, but are there any preferred types/things to look for?

Here is the signal strength map for my home: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c534b316e2765b (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc534b316e2765b).

Since I don't like having to settle, I'd like to get as many channels as I can. :) I'm planning on installing this on my roof.

If there's any other info that you would need to help with suggestions, please let me know.



I posted the same question (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1154772) in HDTV Technical, but I thought there might be a Puget Sound area factor I need to take into consideration, with all of the tall trees, recent windstorms, etc. Someone from that forum recommended a Winegard 7694 for the antenna, but I wanted to see if anyone disagreed with that. For the tuner, I got a recommendation for a dual tuner Hauppauge.



Thanks!


dla26
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

Dan, if you do try the mod, it would be good to get some "before" and "after" signal measurements on 9, 11, and 13 with your gear to compare to the antenna modeling software. I was not able to do it before the switch over from UHF to VHF due to equipment limitations. :cool:

Richard

Richard
Will do!
Dan

Thanks for the quick reply! Looks like I'll have to get that VHF antenna and spend some time on the roof. Oh well, at least it's not February and raining all the time... :)

Whidbey
For the separation part, keep the antennas about 3ft apart, at least, in any direction. That's an excellent yagi, by the way.
Dan

Hi - I've been lurking here and learning a lot.

I live on the far side of a hill (I think its technically Finn Hill in Bothell) - 15700 block of Waynita Way - I am completely blocked line-of-sight from any transmitter, on the bottom floor of an apartment building with my windows facing east.

Still, with an unamplified DB2 suctioned-cupped to my window, I can get most of the UHF channels I care about, by facing the antenna EAST - I'm obviously getting a reflection off the next hill or even the lamp post outside my apartment. For what its worth, I do wish I had gotten a DB4 or CM4221, but this antenna works real well for the conditions. I can get the bellevue stations strongly if I aim the antenna south but I don't have clearance to aim it south-east to get Seattle stations directly.

I do NOT get 9,11,13 now, like many of you. I never did get 13 reliably when it was on UHF 18 but I got 9 and 11 before the change. I've done the rescanning of course. With a dipole held off my balcony I can get a hint of a signal on my DTV converter boxes on those RF channels, but not enough to actually view anything. I've ordered
(backordered) a Y5-7-13 and a UVSJ in hopes I can aim it at some reflected signal.

I also have an amplified UHF/VHF rabbit ear (Phillips MANT510) but I'm getting nothing on VHF with that either.

Do I stand a prayer of this VHF antenna working in this situation? :) I only expect to live here a couple more months but this has become something of a challenge for me! Should I add a CM7777 to my order?

Well I can now say that I'm starting to feel people's pain on 13, after initially thinking I was getting it in solid. Every time I try to get in 13 now, I will get at best steady video, usually with no audio, and my TV will keep turning itself on and off. Worse yet, while this takes place, my remote doesn't work, so I have to just sit there until I can finally switch to another channel when it does start working again. This is utterly ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Years and years have gone by since stations were first preparing for digital broadcast. They assured the government and consumers they were ready for the rollover. Instead of using what they knew to be working while the analog/digital simulcasts were being broadcast, they choose to experiment for the rollover.

Where tell me is the sense in this? All along the government has said we were not ready because not enough consumers had prepared and/or bought into the technology. Little did we know the ones least prepared would be those broadcasting. Sorry for sounding sarcastic and pessimistic, but you have to admit there's a lot of truth in these words.

I'm tempted to look for a cable deal while I wait for our building to get satellite, but I really don't want to buy into Broadstripe's service and be endlessly pestered with them trying to get me to sign back up after I end the service, which is overpriced and inadequate to begin with. If Broadstripe weren't the only service available here though, I'd consider it.

I've been on this forum for several years and have seen numerous discussions about the intent for 9, 11 and 13 to migrate back to their original channels and what the effects would mean to OTA viewers.

TV broadcasters had to make the final commitment of whether they were keeping their pre-transition channel or migrating back to their original channel back in the Fall of 2004. Much of that information has been available on the FCC website.

Granted the on-air announcements didn't talk about it with specifics of whom will be UHF and who VHF, but to the best of my knowledge there has always been the assumption that there would be a combination of UHF and VHF DTV stations in the Seattle/Tacoma market post-transition.

I've been lurking for awhile and just wanted to add my frustration with getting a solid KOMO 4 signal.

I live in Steilacoom, which is down by Fort Lewis and Puget Sound. Using a CM 4228 and 7777, I get all stations reliably with an outdoor installation. However, Channel 4 is unwatchable (picture constantly breaks up, pixelated) during the day, frustratingly watchable when the sun goes down. Channels 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 22, etc do not have this problem. During the winter, 4 was much better. I don't think it is foliage since I assume it would affect channels 5 and 7 as well, which are rock solid for me.

My channel 4 signal woes predate the Friday transition. I was hoping KOMO reception would improve after June 12th, which is why I waited to post here, but no such luck. My only transition woes have been much lower signal strength for 9 and 11, yet they are still watchable. I'm going to add a VHF antenna to my 4228 to see if that helps those two. I live so close to 13 that rabbit ears pick it up.

TV Fool says for my lat/long (zip code 98388) that Channel 4 should be in the green zone and better than all the rest. No such luck for me.

Is it reasonable to hope that once KOMO boosts its signal and raises the digital antenna to the top of the tower, that TV Fool will be accurate for me? Otherwise come fall I'll have to watch Lost via Hulu.

I've been lurking for awhile and just wanted to add my frustration with getting a solid KOMO 4 signal.

I live in Steilacoom, which is down by Fort Lewis and Puget Sound. Using a CM 4228 and 7777, I get all stations reliably with an outdoor installation. However, Channel 4 is unwatchable (picture constantly breaks up, pixelated) during the day, frustratingly watchable when the sun goes down. Channels 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 22, etc do not have this problem. During the winter, 4 was much better. I don't think it is foliage since I assume it would affect channels 5 and 7 as well, which are rock solid for me.

My channel 4 signal woes predate the Friday transition. I was hoping KOMO reception would improve after June 12th, which is why I waited to post here, but no such luck. My only transition woes have been much lower signal strength for 9 and 11, yet they are still watchable. I'm going to add a VHF antenna to my 4228 to see if that helps those two. I live so close to 13 that rabbit ears pick it up.

TV Fool says for my lat/long (zip code 98388) that Channel 4 should be in the green zone and better than all the rest. No such luck for me.

Is it reasonable to hope that once KOMO boosts its signal and raises the digital antenna to the top of the tower, that TV Fool will be accurate for me? Otherwise come fall I'll have to watch Lost via Hulu.

As I've mentioned in the past, I used to work for KOMO as their chief engineer, it's just that there is no way to change my name on this board. That being said, I am pretty familar with their transmission systems and can assure you that the KOMO-DT power and radiation pattern is quite similar to the other Queen Anne stations there in the South Tacoma area. I can also assure you that KOMO-DT is operating at their licensed power as they have for many years. Their engineering folks are pros and keep the place pretty well buttoned-down just as all of the TV engineers in Seattle do.

Based on your comment, it sounds like you are experiencing not the loss of signal, but multipath conditions on channel 38 (KOMO's actual DTV channel).

In brief, multipath is a condition where the signal or signals at a specific frequency, bounce off natural or man-made objects, arriving at your receiver just slightly delayed from the main signal. Multipath causes cancellation or distortion of the signal from the perspective of your receiving device and the intermittent problems you're seeing. Multipath conditions could be caused by numerous conditions including; moving traffic nearby, someone parking their car in a different location, or even trees swaying in the wind. It's hard to say.

The typical ways to reduce multipath is to try small aiming adjustments in your antenna orientation. Eventually you may find a "sweet spot" when you get many of the stations. The other is to try some in-line attenuators to reduce the overall signal to the receiver, thus allowing the better signal to reach the receiver while also reducing the reflections.

I sound like a skipping CD here, but make sure you use a good quality (non Radio Shack) RG6 cable. Poor shielding will allow for cable leakage and increase chances for multipath.

Only use amplification if absolutely required as amplifiers will amplify multipath, and make sure any un-terminated spigots on passive splitters are terminated with equipment or 75 ohm termination resistors.

Good Luck!

Granted the on-air announcements didn't talk about it with specifics of whom will be UHF and who VHF, but to the best of my knowledge there has always been the assumption that there would be a combination of UHF and VHF DTV stations in the Seattle/Tacoma market post-transition.

Kelly,
while people reading this forum and able to understand the FCC filings have a fairly clear idea of what's going on and what is planned for the future, the average Joe and Jane didn't get much specific information from the stations. I have not heard any mention that most stations are now broadcasting with less than optimal signals and that modifications will occur that will affect the quality of the signal in a hopefully near future. Before the transition the stations websites have little or no content specific to the station itself being more concern to fill the FCC requirements than inform their own viewers.

On the day of the switch, KOMO had a celebratory piece on the news and the only technical thing they mentioned was that "digital signal doesn't go as far as analog". Nothing about the new antenna, power boost, the problems getting the signal on the West Sound, etc. How are people supposed to know and make informed decisions?

I'm a bit disgusted at the surprise switch to VHF by 9, 11 and 13 last Friday.

GlennHarvey - I'm also in Marysville, but I have not lost channel 13. It still comes in strong. Channels 9 and 11 disappeared for me. I'm using a Channel Master 4228 antenna at about 330 feet elevation with good line of sight to all directions except east.

You may want to consider buying a VHF only antenna. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

You may also need a "jointenna" to couple the antennas, unless your pre-amp has separate VHF/UHF inputs, like a CM 7777 does.

I'm trying to cut the cord from Comcast, so I bought a cheap $23 indoor/outdoor antenna from monoprice.com and have been playing around with it in various spots inside my home w/ mixed results. All I care about is ABC (4), NBC (5), CBS (7), PBS (9), and FOX (13). FOX/KCPQ is the only one giving me problems now, as it seems is the situation with many people here. I've never even been able to get a hint of a signal.

If I can't get FOX my wife will kill me for cancelling cable, so I'm still subscribing to Comcast basic for now ($15/mo) until I get this antenna stuff figured out. Before I embark on a rooftop antenna mounting adventure (which I am clueless about, and don't even have a ladder tall enough for), do I have any hope of actually getting 13 from my location?

On antennaweb.org 13 is showing up as "Red VHF" w/ compass heading of 217deg and distance of 35 miles. ABC/CBS/PBS/NBC are all at ~190deg and 17 miles, and I can get all these signals just fine. There are no obvious line-of-sight barriers from my home.

Whidbey
For the separation part, keep the antennas about 3ft apart, at least, in any direction. That's an excellent yagi, by the way.
Dan

Dan, thanks! I think I will temporarily mount my old ugly RS VHF/UHF combo antenna to see if I can get the signal, and if it looks promising, spring for the new antenna.

I'm trying to cut the cord from Comcast, so I bought a cheap $23 indoor/outdoor antenna from monoprice.com and have been playing around with it in various spots inside my home w/ mixed results. All I care about is ABC (4), NBC (5), CBS (7), PBS (9), and FOX (13). FOX/KCPQ is the only one giving me problems now, as it seems is the situation with many people here. I've never even been able to get a hint of a signal.

Try the antenna outside, pointed towards Bremerton. You may get lucky and not need to put it on the roof.

GlennHarvey - I'm also in Marysville, but I have not lost channel 13. It still comes in strong. Channels 9 and 11 disappeared for me. I'm using a Channel Master 4228 antenna at about 330 feet elevation with good line of sight to all directions except east.

You may want to consider buying a VHF only antenna. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

You may also need a "jointenna" to couple the antennas, unless your pre-amp has separate VHF/UHF inputs, like a CM 7777 does.

Another alternative to the Jointenna, is the Pico Micro UHF/VHF joiner. $4 on Solidsignal.

I agree with skyboysea.
NONE of the stations mentioned anything that I saw about anything changing prior to the cutover.
On Friday, I saw King5 mention that their signal would now be effective from Olympia to Mt. Vernon only or something to that effect.

I'm not trying to say that the stations are somehow at fault for the signal change but at least let your viewers know about the potential.
Instead they chose to endlessly repeat the same old sh!t about convertor boxes and blah, blah, blah.
While of course leaving out the fact that a re-scan would be necessary SINCE THEY WERE CHANGING FREQUENCY AND SIGNAL STRENGTH.

When it came time for the cutover, I let my cat Mimi do the hookups.
She'd seen Enrique Cerna on Channel 9 so many f'ing times she knew it better than he did.

While of course leaving out the fact that a re-scan would be necessary

Actually, some of the locals did mention that a rescan would be necessary. Probably not KING5 though, since they did not change frequency.

I agree with skyboysea.
NONE of the stations mentioned anything that I saw about anything changing prior to the cutover.
On Friday, I saw King5 mention that their signal would now be effective from Olympia to Mt. Vernon only or something to that effect.

I'm not trying to say that the stations are somehow at fault for the signal change but at least let your viewers know about the potential.
Instead they chose to endlessly repeat the same old sh!t about convertor boxes and blah, blah, blah.
While of course leaving out the fact that a re-scan would be necessary SINCE THEY WERE CHANGING FREQUENCY AND SIGNAL STRENGTH.

When it came time for the cutover, I let my cat Mimi do the hookups.
She'd seen Enrique Cerna on Channel 9 so many f'ing times she knew it better than he did.

Certainly I understand the frustration some are experiencing with getting OTA signals, and personally anticipated some of that as stations migrated back to their VHF channels. But as you mentioned, the decision made to migrate back and how it's presented to the audience is not an engineering matter.

I too was tired of watching the "dumbed-down" messages on the DTV transition, but having taken many a call to an early transition station I was assisting in MA., the message had to be that way. You wouldn't believe the amount of folks that had purchased converters months ago, yet didn't open the box until the day of the transition in a panic. Or my favorite, some kid at RS who tells people that their "digital" rabbit-ear antennas should work fine for DTV reception, and that it must be a problem with the TV station. I had many an upset rabbit-ear caller who was sure the station was at fault. It gets even better when I tell them that rabbit-ear antennas really don't work well for DTV reception. I was a REALLY popular guy then!

If talking pure physics and science, reception of mid-high VHF DTV stations should work as well as UHF DTV stations given the correct installations.

I suspect the problem that most stations didn't anticipate which did migrate back to VHF, was the amount of experimentation time required on the part of viewers to arrive at the right combination of antenna and wiring to do both UHF and VHF. But hey, that's what guy's like Dan are for!

It's unfortunate that many people bought "HDTV" antennas, which were UHF-only, thinking they would be fine (knowing nothing about VHF/UHF), and they were fine until Friday. Imagine their surprise when they found out that their new "HDTV" antennas don't work anymore. The stations have done nothing to prepare or educate people in that regard.

-- Kevin

I'm trying to cut the cord from Comcast, so I bought a cheap $23 indoor/outdoor antenna from monoprice.com and have been playing around with it in various spots inside my home w/ mixed results. All I care about is ABC (4), NBC (5), CBS (7), PBS (9), and FOX (13). FOX/KCPQ is the only one giving me problems now, as it seems is the situation with many people here. I've never even been able to get a hint of a signal.

If I can't get FOX my wife will kill me for cancelling cable, so I'm still subscribing to Comcast basic for now ($15/mo) until I get this antenna stuff figured out. Before I embark on a rooftop antenna mounting adventure (which I am clueless about, and don't even have a ladder tall enough for), do I have any hope of actually getting 13 from my location?

On antennaweb.org 13 is showing up as "Red VHF" w/ compass heading of 217deg and distance of 35 miles. ABC/CBS/PBS/NBC are all at ~190deg and 17 miles, and I can get all these signals just fine. There are no obvious line-of-sight barriers from my home.

I don't live too far from you. Lynnwood, off of 164th Street. Antennaweb has you in better shape than me, which has me in the purple for channel 13. I can get 13 just fine with just about any outdoor VHF antenna, pointed at Bremerton.

For more accurate prediction, go to TVFool.com, and enter your exact address, and post the results here (it won't show your address), and we can give more specific antenna recommendations.

-- Kevin

Pleasantly surprised today after doing another autoscan. All I did was change my coax cable position slightly, which was more to just get in both 5 and 7 solid than anything. Then I decided to try another autoscan and low and behold this time I now get 4.1 and 4.2. In fact they're both a solid 10 bars signal strength with no fluctuation. Channel 13.1 works OK now too. The only one I'm still not getting now is KONG 16.1.

I don't expect things to stay this good though, so I'm going to go ahead and get that UHF/rabbit ear antenna for times when all goes haywire. Hope this helps someone else. A little tweaking in between scans can make a difference it seems.

It's unfortunate that many people bought "HDTV" antennas, which were UHF-only, thinking they would be fine (knowing nothing about VHF/UHF), and they were fine until Friday. Imagine their surprise when they found out that their new "HDTV" antennas don't work anymore. The stations have done nothing to prepare or educate people in that regard.

-- Kevin

The converter box was supposed to be the "Fix" and oh yes, maybe a better antenna. The dry weather since the transition is probably masking more antenna reception problems. I feel pretty good now but how about during wet windy weather? As my neighbor said, "How much do I have to pay to get free TV?"

I don't live too far from you. Lynnwood, off of 164th Street. Antennaweb has you in better shape than me, which has me in the purple for channel 13. I can get 13 just fine with just about any outdoor VHF antenna, pointed at Bremerton.

For more accurate prediction, go to TVFool.com, and enter your exact address, and post the results here (it won't show your address), and we can give more specific antenna recommendations.

-- Kevin
Here are my tvfool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663d384f9122d2

This is the antenna I currently have:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2

FWIW, I don't think the color coding from antennaweb is very accurate. Or that they choose to err on the safe side, tell you to get a lot more antenna than needed. That applies to my current location and a previous one near Lynnwood Walmart.

This may not be the solution for everyone, but this worked well for me to get KCPQ. At my location in Port Orchard, KCPQ is about 140 degrees off the rest of the major stations. I just added a second DB2 and a Ch13 jointenna. The jointenna filters all channels except 13 on the one antenna and allows all channels except ch 13 on the other antenna. I was nervous about the DB4 getting VHF channels 9 & 11, but they are both coming in around 90% at my location. You can pick up a ch 13 jointenna for about $6.

http://www.amazon.com/Jointenna-Model-0583-Channel-Combiner/dp/B001RQVF5K/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1245187341&sr=8-4

I have several extra channel 13 Jointennas, free to anyone that needs one. As I said in the Jointenna exchange thread in the HDTV Technical forum, I ordered one, but they sent me a box of 6. So I have some extras, still brand new in the box.

You can pick one up from me in person, or I can mail it (you pay shipping).

PM if interested.

-- Kevin

Here are my tvfool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663d384f9122d2

This is the antenna I currently have:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2

Your TVFool results are MUCH better than mine, and you're only a few miles from me. But I'm blocked by a hill, and tvfool says I have 2 edge diffraction of the signal. It says you have direct line-of-sight to the transmitter. You have a good chance of picking it up with indoor rabbit-ears.

But do you think given the angle differences I'd be able to get both 13 AND 4,5,7,9 w/ a single location of the antenna? Because if I have to physically move the antenna just to be able to watch 13, or if I have to compromise quality of the signal just so I can "mostly" get all the channels, then that is a dealbreaker for me.

What was the reasoning behind 9, 11, and 13 moving to VHF but the others choosing to stay up in UHF land? If it was a good idea, why didn't KING, KOMO, KIRO move too?

Just wondering.

Low-VHF, as 4 and 5 are, were already known to have very, very serious reception problems. Those were avoided already.

KIRO's parent company, Cox, has kept all its stations on UHF in preparation for Mobile DTV.

- Trip

Hey KomoKelly!
It's really not that big a deal as I made out, I mean it's only Channel 13.
Although I am missing their "crack" news team at least I can still watch Sabra;)

2 observations:
I'm actually surprised at how many people do OTA around here.
I used to be a VOOM guy and when they went bye-bye I just stayed OTA.

I'm not going to do anything "special" to try and get 13 back.
It's not worth it to me. Plus their signal must be pretty weak right now as
I have a clear line of sight to their tower.
I'm guessing they'll do something to boost the signal before the NFL starts.

Hello Everyone -

I have been a lurker for about a year and working in preparation of the DTV transition for that long. I learned ALOT simply by reading and applying what I learned.

I reside up on Whidbey Island on the NW side of town. Knowing there is a problem on Whidbey (particularly north of Oak Harbor) I thought I would share my set up and have provided a drawing (as part of that drawing is an insert picture of the outside installation as well).

To sum up the installation -

Physical Location
Intersection of Victoria Way and Highland Drive
Oak Harbor Washington

Antenna height above ground 37 feet

Channels received (crystal clear)
4.1, 4.2, 5.1, 5.2, 7.1, 7.2,
9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 11.1, 12.1, 13.1,
13.2, 16.1, 16.2, 20.1, 20.2,
20.3, 20.4, 20.5, 22.1, 24.1,
44.1, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4, 51.1

Both antennas are Channel Master antennas
VHF - CM3020
UHF - CM4228

The rotator was purchased from Radio Shack.
The down lead from either antenna is a 6 foot RG-6 Cable.
The cable between the pre-amp and the amp (Radio Shack pn 150-2507) is 2 sections of RG-6; a 50 ft and 100 ft on each one.
The cable between the amp to the VHF/UHF Joiner (Radio Shack pn 15-1237) is typical indoor cable - 3 ft.
The cable between the Joiner and the Normal Splitter is another 3 ft indoor cable.
The cable runs to the upstairs and the downstairs are 100 ft RG-6 cable

All the part numbers and cable length info are labeled on the drawing.

Certainly hope this helps those Islanders that are trying like heck to get the Seattle stations.

BJ

Can you point that thing toward Port Angeles and take a look at the KIRO translator K30FL. I am about 1.2 miles East of them LOS and can't get it
to work. No problems with 2.1, 8.1, 12.1, 24.1 & 32.1.

I have tried with antenna, paper clip on converter input and with terminator on converter input. No luck at all excep the converter takes a lot longer when scanning past 30.1 than any other channel.

Thanks, dickba

Actually, some of the locals did mention that a rescan would be necessary. Probably not KING5 though, since they did not change frequency.
I heard the broadcast notices that a rescan might be necessary. However, as a long time OTA-HD viewer, I understood that to mean that some changes might be made in the way the signal was broadcast that would require a rescan. This kind of thing had happened several times over the years when KOMO, KCTS and Channel 22, as I recall would go dark due to what I was told by the station reps was a changeout of a component or adjustment of the broadcast signal. My picture always restored to the same UHF channel when I rescanned. It never occured to me that the latest messages meant the channel would move back to VHF band.

I'm trying to cut the cord from Comcast, so I bought a cheap $23 indoor/outdoor antenna from monoprice.com and have been playing around with it in various spots inside my home w/ mixed results. All I care about is ABC (4), NBC (5), CBS (7), PBS (9), and FOX (13). FOX/KCPQ is the only one giving me problems now, as it seems is the situation with many people here. I've never even been able to get a hint of a signal.

If I can't get FOX my wife will kill me for cancelling cable, so I'm still subscribing to Comcast basic for now ($15/mo) until I get this antenna stuff figured out. Before I embark on a rooftop antenna mounting adventure (which I am clueless about, and don't even have a ladder tall enough for), do I have any hope of actually getting 13 from my location?

On antennaweb.org 13 is showing up as "Red VHF" w/ compass heading of 217deg and distance of 35 miles. ABC/CBS/PBS/NBC are all at ~190deg and 17 miles, and I can get all these signals just fine. There are no obvious line-of-sight barriers from my home.

Mill Creek can be tricky. What's your location/elevation? I'm up above the Town Center at ~500-ft and have had good luck with attic mounted Channel Master CM4248 UHF and an Antennacraft VHF-Hiband antenna using a Channel Master 7777 preamp.

But do you think given the angle differences I'd be able to get both 13 AND 4,5,7,9 w/ a single location of the antenna? Because if I have to physically move the antenna just to be able to watch 13, or if I have to compromise quality of the signal just so I can "mostly" get all the channels, then that is a dealbreaker for me.

With my attic-mounted Antennacraft VHF-Hi antenna (http://www.solidsignal.com), I simply aimed between Seatlle and Bremerton. Works fine on 9, 11 and 13. But a lot depends on exactly where in Mill Creek you're located.

Hey KomoKelly!

2 observations:
I'm actually surprised at how many people do OTA around here.

I'm guessing they'll do something to boost the signal before the NFL starts.

Statistically speaking, the amount of OTA viewers in the Seattle-Tacoma DMA is pretty small (2%) as compared to areas like Boise, Idaho, (20%). Seattle cable satellite penetration is in the neighborhood of 98%, typical of larger markets.

If indeed you're line of sight to KCPQ, then chances are it isn't that the station field strength is the low. Your problem is more likely multipath or possibly overloading the front end of your receiver. Remember, the "signal level" meter on your set-top box is not actually level, but a measurement of the signal quality. Multipath or overloading the receiver can cause a low "signal level".

Statistically speaking, the amount of OTA viewers in the Seattle-Tacoma DMA is pretty small (2%) as compared to areas like Boise, Idaho, (20%). Seattle cable satellite penetration is in the neighborhood of 98%, typical of larger markets.

I suspect that OTA usage went down a bit when Fisher and Dish finally settled their dispute last week. I only use it for subchannels now that Directv has picked up KCTS, KSTW and KONG, but it's also a nice backup when we get rain fade (fortunately that is pretty rare).

Whidbey
For the separation part, keep the antennas about 3ft apart, at least, in any direction. That's an excellent yagi, by the way.
Dan

One more question, just to make sure I've left no stone unturned.
Do I need to use equal length coax for each antenna?

Proposed setup - one UHF antenna, one VHF antenna, both running into a 7777 pre-amp with separate VHF and UHF inputs.

Thanks again for all of your help!

I'm having a similar experience between Lynnwood and Martha Lake. My CM-7000 connected to a Radio Shack VHF/UHF amplified antenna used to show a signal strength of 80-100% for 9 broadcast over 41. Today, the strength is <20% and the CM-7000 can't readily lock onto the signal. LIke Whidbey, I'm hoping that the station is in a transition, less than full-power mode, and signal strength will improve eventually.

As of 10:00 a.m. I'm still receiving 11 and 13 well.


I want to post an update to the above.

I am located about one mile south of Martha Lake, on an east-facing slope. Pre-transition, I had been using a Radio Shack amplified VHF/UHF stick (15-1847; essentially a rebadged Terk TV-50) hanging from the attic rafters at about 18 feet AGL and aimed roughly SW, fed through a CM-3044 distribution amp. My primary tuner has been a CM-7000 CECB. I was able to receive 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 20, 22, 33, 45, and 51 (and subchannels) most of the time with signal quality between 30-100% as displayed on the CM-7000. During inclement weather, 9 would fall to 30% with constant dropouts and 11 and 13 would often fall below 10% and fail to display at all.

With the transition, 9, 11, and 13 vanished for good. This prompted me to do what I should have done in the beginning: mount the antenna outside. Today I moved it to an outside south-facing wall, and, after some experimentation, settled on a location about 10 feet AGL and away from eaves, gutters, and the roofline. Tonight I'm getting 9 and 11 at 70%, and 13 at 30%. Except for 4 (50%) and 20 (30%), the rest are coming in at 90-100%.

From this location, at least, due south seems to be a fair compromise between 13 and everything else. It remains to be seen what will happen when the weather turns bad, but for now I'm happy. So is my daughter, who didn't think she could bear living without "Gossip Girl" this summer.

Greg

One more question, just to make sure I've left no stone unturned.
Do I need to use equal length coax for each antenna?

Proposed setup - one UHF antenna, one VHF antenna, both running into a 7777 pre-amp with separate VHF and UHF inputs.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Whidbey
No, equal length is only required when stacking identical antennas.
As for testing, the yagi you ordered is going to be a bit more directional than your Rat Shack special, so results may be a bit different, good or bad.....
Dan

What was the reasoning behind 9, 11, and 13 moving to VHF but the others choosing to stay up in UHF land? If it was a good idea, why didn't KING, KOMO, KIRO move too?

Just wondering.


Steve
Another factor was the much lower power co$t$ to cover the same area.
Dan

Hi - I've been lurking here and learning a lot.

I live on the far side of a hill (I think its technically Finn Hill in Bothell) - 15700 block of Waynita Way - I am completely blocked line-of-sight from any transmitter, on the bottom floor of an apartment building with my windows facing east.

Still, with an unamplified DB2 suctioned-cupped to my window, I can get most of the UHF channels I care about, by facing the antenna EAST - I'm obviously getting a reflection off the next hill or even the lamp post outside my apartment. For what its worth, I do wish I had gotten a DB4 or CM4221, but this antenna works real well for the conditions. I can get the bellevue stations strongly if I aim the antenna south but I don't have clearance to aim it south-east to get Seattle stations directly.

I do NOT get 9,11,13 now, like many of you. I never did get 13 reliably when it was on UHF 18 but I got 9 and 11 before the change. I've done the rescanning of course. With a dipole held off my balcony I can get a hint of a signal on my DTV converter boxes on those RF channels, but not enough to actually view anything. I've ordered
(backordered) a Y5-7-13 and a UVSJ in hopes I can aim it at some reflected signal.

I also have an amplified UHF/VHF rabbit ear (Phillips MANT510) but I'm getting nothing on VHF with that either.

Do I stand a prayer of this VHF antenna working in this situation? :) I only expect to live here a couple more months but this has become something of a challenge for me! Should I add a CM7777 to my order?

Eric
Common sense says just wait for your move and see what you need at the new location. You're working with fumes, signal wise. The newer converter boxes, specially the CM7000 and Zenith, are very sensitive. That's the main reason your working at all. Try the antenna when it arrives and go from there. Amplifying signals that weak can work, or just get uglier. Again your call.
I can definitely recommend prayer, miracles do happen.
Dan

I've been lurking for awhile and just wanted to add my frustration with getting a solid KOMO 4 signal.

I live in Steilacoom, which is down by Fort Lewis and Puget Sound. Using a CM 4228 and 7777, I get all stations reliably with an outdoor installation. However, Channel 4 is unwatchable (picture constantly breaks up, pixelated) during the day, frustratingly watchable when the sun goes down. Channels 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 22, etc do not have this problem. During the winter, 4 was much better. I don't think it is foliage since I assume it would affect channels 5 and 7 as well, which are rock solid for me.

My channel 4 signal woes predate the Friday transition. I was hoping KOMO reception would improve after June 12th, which is why I waited to post here, but no such luck. My only transition woes have been much lower signal strength for 9 and 11, yet they are still watchable. I'm going to add a VHF antenna to my 4228 to see if that helps those two. I live so close to 13 that rabbit ears pick it up.

TV Fool says for my lat/long (zip code 98388) that Channel 4 should be in the green zone and better than all the rest. No such luck for me.

Is it reasonable to hope that once KOMO boosts its signal and raises the digital antenna to the top of the tower, that TV Fool will be accurate for me? Otherwise come fall I'll have to watch Lost via Hulu.

drflk
Your biggest problem is all the trees along the hillside, up past Pt Defiance. And, you are going through both Narrows bridges. I have done work around there and surveys along the bluff. It's very hit and miss.
While you think the other channels are fine, in reality the signal could be pretty ugly. Your tuner is able to cope with some of that, and the picture would still look perfect. Ch 4 could be just a bit worse, enough to push you beyond its abilities.
I would suggest trying a different location, or moving the antenna up or down a bit. It doesn't take much. Sometimes just a foot will do it.
Dan

The converter box was supposed to be the "Fix" and oh yes, maybe a better antenna. The dry weather since the transition is probably masking more antenna reception problems. I feel pretty good now but how about during wet windy weather? As my neighbor said, "How much do I have to pay to get free TV?"

waltc_wa
Wind and rain don't normally cause problems. It's when your signal goes through many tree limbs and they're already causing some signal breakup. Not enough that without wind it looses lock, though. A soon as the branches get wet and/or move around it will get bad enough that breakup starts.
Every install is different, of course, so if you're looking through a lot of trees, check out signal "strength" numbers during a good windy day and see how much they vary from normal. If not much or none, you're doing fine.
Dan

Pleasantly surprised today after doing another autoscan. All I did was change my coax cable position slightly, which was more to just get in both 5 and 7 solid than anything. Then I decided to try another autoscan and low and behold this time I now get 4.1 and 4.2. In fact they're both a solid 10 bars signal strength with no fluctuation. Channel 13.1 works OK now too. The only one I'm still not getting now is KONG 16.1.

I don't expect things to stay this good though, so I'm going to go ahead and get that UHF/rabbit ear antenna for times when all goes haywire. Hope this helps someone else. A little tweaking in between scans can make a difference it seems.

Hi Def Fan
If moving the cable slightly makes that much difference, you have SERIOUS ingress problems. Your cable is only supposed to get the signal from point A (antenna) to point B (tuner). The antenna does all the work. In your case, the cable is acting like an antenna itself, and fighting the signal from the antenna. Try a new cable with good fittings, and make sure your current antenna is in good order (no broken or loose bits). Make sure you connect the cable just firm enough that it can't be undone by hand. Also, did you ever try an antennuator, something from 10 to 20 db size?
Dan

drflk
Your biggest problem is all the trees along the hillside, up past Pt Defiance. And, you are going through both Narrows bridges. I have done work around there and surveys along the bluff. It's very hit and miss.
While you think the other channels are fine, in reality the signal could be pretty ugly. Your tuner is able to cope with some of that, and the picture would still look perfect. Ch 4 could be just a bit worse, enough to push you beyond its abilities.
I would suggest trying a different location, or moving the antenna up or down a bit. It doesn't take much. Sometimes just a foot will do it.
Dan

I'm located at water level along the western edge of Pt Defiance. Last summer I started to do some DTV experimentation and found KBTC and KCPQ to be the only absolutely reliable signals at 90-100% signal; no surprise considering almost line-of-sight to KCPQ and proximity to KBTC. My main goal was to get Seattle stations via a bounce off the cliff across the Narrows. Analog VHF never worked...it didn't bounce enough and the 250 foot hill blocking Seattle was too big.

The only DTV I somewhat consistently get off the bounce is KING and occasionally KONG. I only get very occasional blips from KIRO and KOMO...nothing watchable. None of the Capitol Hill stations come in at all. The interesting thing is that KING comes in at 80% a lot of the time, but usually only at night. Sometimes in the daytime it's fine, but at other days it just doesn't want to work at all. I guess it can be attributed to the inherent multipath with the hill bounce. I've also noticed that antenna location is as important as ever when trying to catch a bounce. Sometimes as little as 6 inches will make the difference between a reliable 75% signal and nothing. Kind of analogous to an audio comb filter.

I also get all the Tiger Mountain stations pretty well off the bounce. I also occasionally get KBTC's second transmitter in Chehalis, KCKA. Now that KONG's channel 16 analog 5000kW powerhouse is off, I get KCKA's channel 15 analog nightlight clear as a bell on a little UHF loop!

It's no big deal that I don't get things OTA since I've got Click cable for locals. Just thought it would be interesting to see how DTV works in a unique situation like mine. I actually gained channels with DTV over analog while many people lost some...the only two things I used to be able to get on analog were KCPQ 13 and KBTC 28!

Whidbey
No, equal length is only required when stacking identical antennas.
As for testing, the yagi you ordered is going to be a bit more directional than your Rat Shack special, so results may be a bit different, good or bad.....
Dan

Good to know, I was debating whether to mount the VHF antenna independent from my rotisserie antenna, since both stations I need come from the same direction.

Can you point that thing toward Port Angeles and take a look at the KIRO translator K30FL. I am about 1.2 miles East of them LOS and can't get it
to work. No problems with 2.1, 8.1, 12.1, 24.1 & 32.1.


dickba;

Since this appeared immediately after my post I am assuming you are asking if I could do it.

While I can point toward Port Angeles - it doesn't do any good since West of me is a ridge about 150 to 200 feet high that is heavily forested with Douglas fir which stands another 60 to 70 feet high. I did try and never received a signal of any kind except KVOS (12.1) which we seem to get no matter where the antenna is pointed.

Sorry.

BJ

Steve
Another factor was the much lower power co$t$ to cover the same area.
Dan

Well it's been a little disconcerting, being a six year DTV veteran that got caught unprepared for the transition. :(

My girlfriend on Whidbey also lost 9, 11, and 13. :(

I don't recall hearing from anyone whose reception improved on those channels.

drflk

I would suggest trying a different location, or moving the antenna up or down a bit. It doesn't take much. Sometimes just a foot will do it.
Dan

A big YES on that. I had to investigate a half-dozen positions up or down by the inch (not foot) to get a compromise where I could get all of the stations (except Ch 4) reasonably well. Made me want a surplus submarine periscope to run it up and down as well as rotating azimuth. My CM4221HD MOD is now about 15 feet AGL and looking through the lower branches of a forest of fir trees.

Any higher and it probably would not work at all. And due to reflections, the azimuths are all over the map. Not at all the heading you would expect based on the TV tower heading. Fortunately my CM rotator is automatic; just punch in the saved channel number and it rotates to the proper azimuth.

Richard

I want to post an update to the above.

I am located about one mile south of Martha Lake, on an east-facing slope. Pre-transition, I had been using a Radio Shack amplified VHF/UHF stick (15-1847; essentially a rebadged Terk TV-50) hanging from the attic rafters at about 18 feet AGL and aimed roughly SW, fed through a CM-3044 distribution amp. My primary tuner has been a CM-7000 CECB. I was able to receive 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 20, 22, 33, 45, and 51 (and subchannels) most of the time with signal quality between 30-100% as displayed on the CM-7000. During inclement weather, 9 would fall to 30% with constant dropouts and 11 and 13 would often fall below 10% and fail to display at all.

With the transition, 9, 11, and 13 vanished for good. This prompted me to do what I should have done in the beginning: mount the antenna outside. Today I moved it to an outside south-facing wall, and, after some experimentation, settled on a location about 10 feet AGL and away from eaves, gutters, and the roofline. Tonight I'm getting 9 and 11 at 70%, and 13 at 30%. Except for 4 (50%) and 20 (30%), the rest are coming in at 90-100%.

From this location, at least, due south seems to be a fair compromise between 13 and everything else. It remains to be seen what will happen when the weather turns bad, but for now I'm happy. So is my daughter, who didn't think she could bear living without "Gossip Girl" this summer.

Greg

I'm a block east of Martha Lake and up until the transition I was able to get everything with a roof mounted CM4221. Like you I had problems with KCTS during windy days, even though the signal came in in the low 70's (I think some trees to the south of me are interfering) but everything else was rock solid. My KCPQ signal was typically about 86, and the rest of the channels were in the 90's or 100. This is on various Dish Network HD DVRs.

Since the transition, I can no longer pick up 9 or 13, and after a rescan I can get 11 but it's in the low 60's.

I ordered the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 from SolidSignal.com a couple of days ago, but I just got an e-mail from them that they are back ordered 1 - 2 weeks now.

Since I've got a couple of weeks I may try tweaking my existing 4221 a bit and see if that makes a difference for anything.
Once I get it and install it I'll post how things went.

Can you point that thing toward Port Angeles and take a look at the KIRO translator K30FL. I am about 1.2 miles East of them LOS and can't get it
to work. No problems with 2.1, 8.1, 12.1, 24.1 & 32.1.

I have tried with antenna, paper clip on converter input and with terminator on converter input. No luck at all excep the converter takes a lot longer when scanning past 30.1 than any other channel.

Thanks, dickba

I am about 52 miles away from it in Stanwood, but right now I'm getting K30FL with a CM4221 on an Insignia converter box. This morning the signal is watchable with minimal breakups, but last night it wasn't. The box identifies the channels as 30-1 and 30-2, but there is no other program guide data.

I also have a DTVpal converter box, but when I hook it up to the same antenna it does not like the signal from K30FL. It gives a signal strength number of 53, which is about the minimum number that it can use, and frequently shows "ENCRYPTED SERVICE" in the program title area. It did work on Monday (June 15) afternoon, the first time I found K30FL after pointing the antenna west.

I don't recall hearing from anyone whose reception improved on those channels.

I'm hoping mine will once I have the correct antenna...;) Channel 9 could be a bit touchy at times for me pre-transition, it will be interesting to see if the post-transition reception improves once I install the proper VHF antenna.

Richard, KR7L wrote:

... "Fortunately my CM rotator is automatic; just punch in the saved channel number and it rotates to the proper azimuth."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Richard,
That is a slick setup. :D What's the model number of your Channel Master rotor? Thanks in advance,
Jim

But do you think given the angle differences I'd be able to get both 13 AND 4,5,7,9 w/ a single location of the antenna? Because if I have to physically move the antenna just to be able to watch 13, or if I have to compromise quality of the signal just so I can "mostly" get all the channels, then that is a dealbreaker for me.

At my location, just a few miles west of you, I can get all of the stations with my outdoor antenna pointed towards Bremerton. I even get the Tiger Mountain stations, which are almost 90 degrees off axis. But I have LOS to Tiger Mt. but am blocked by hills to Seattle and Bremerton.

Since according to TVFool, you have LOS to all of the stations, try some cheap $5 rabbit ears (you may already have some in a closet somewhere). I believe rabbit ears will give better VHF performance than the antenna you currently have.

If you want to step up to a better antenna, the relatively small Winegard 7694 would be an excellent choice. It should do well even mounted in the attic. Of course outdoors would be much better.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin

Well it's been a little disconcerting, being a six year DTV veteran that got caught unprepared for the transition. :(

My girlfriend on Whidbey also lost 9, 11, and 13. :(

I don't recall hearing from anyone whose reception improved on those channels.

I actually did improve, as I expected, on channel 13. Like some others who have commented here, I have a clump of transmitters located in Seattle, and then the Ch. 13 transmitter on Gold Mountain about 120 degrees off the Seattle transmitters. (I'm on the East-central side of Bainbridge) I settled on a UHF antenna pointed at Seattle and (sort of) a VHF antenna pointed (mostly) at Gold Mountain, with the coax from the two coming together at a CM7777. It allows me to get by without having to use the rotor, which would drive my wife/kids crazy if we had to use it.

Channel 11 is a bit weak now (which isn't really surprising), though channel 9 is just about as strong as it was before the switch. I have some hope that when Channel 11 bumps up the power, that my reception of 11 will improve (though I get them well enough, as it is).

Alternatively, I hope that KCPQ's "translator" in Seattle will allow me to point both UHF and VHF antennas at Seattle.

Eric
Common sense says just wait for your move and see what you need at the new location. You're working with fumes, signal wise. The newer converter boxes, specially the CM7000 and Zenith, are very sensitive. That's the main reason your working at all. Try the antenna when it arrives and go from there. Amplifying signals that weak can work, or just get uglier. Again your call.
I can definitely recommend prayer, miracles do happen.
Dan

Thanks for the reply, Dan.

It will be fun to experiment in any event, provided I can actually get the antenna - I suspect there's been a bit of a run on the Y5-7-13 :)

For what its worth, here's what I'm dealing with, signal-wise. As I read an understand more, I'm fairly shocked I'm getting anything (esp. KING) with my window-mounted antenna:

www. tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663d1d5a172855

I have a feeling I'll get 9 and 11 with the new yagi if i can find a good bounce somewhere. I'm not holding my breath about 13.

Richard, KR7L wrote:

... "Fortunately my CM rotator is automatic; just punch in the saved channel number and it rotates to the proper azimuth."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Richard,
That is a slick setup. :D What's the model number of your Channel Master rotor? Thanks in advance,
Jim

Jim, it is the model 9521A drive and controller, but you can buy the controller by itself if you have a RS 15-1225 compatible drive. From Solid Signal.

The IR signal from the remote is a bit wimpy but I programmed my Dishnet remote to do the job. It has a much stronger IR beam. :D

Richard

At my location, just a few miles west of you, I can get all of the stations with my outdoor antenna pointed towards Bremerton. I even get the Tiger Mountain stations, which are almost 90 degrees off axis. But I have LOS to Tiger Mt. but am blocked by hills to Seattle and Bremerton.

Since according to TVFool, you have LOS to all of the stations, try some cheap $5 rabbit ears (you may already have some in a closet somewhere). I believe rabbit ears will give better VHF performance than the antenna you currently have.

If you want to step up to a better antenna, the relatively small Winegard 7694 would be an excellent choice. It should do well even mounted in the attic. Of course outdoors would be much better.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin

Thanks Kevin. I'll experiment a bit more w/ my monoprice.com antenna this weekend. One thing I'm dubious about is convincing my wife to let me set this up in the attic and dealing w/ the whole mess of drilling holes and trying to run cable through the house (which I have never done before, and would probably screw up). Would I be able to just mount my antenna on the side paneling of my house (pointed towards Bremerton, as you say) and run the cable down into the coaxial cable connection panel on the the same side of the house, and just swap out the old Comcast feed w/ the antenna feed into the house? Would this likely work or would the signal get severely degraded? The current cable connection has a two-way splitter which brings the cable feed to the living room and bedroom TVs.

waltc_wa
Wind and rain don't normally cause problems. It's when your signal goes through many tree limbs and they're already causing some signal breakup. Not enough that without wind it looses lock, though. A soon as the branches get wet and/or move around it will get bad enough that breakup starts.
Every install is different, of course, so if you're looking through a lot of trees, check out signal "strength" numbers during a good windy day and see how much they vary from normal. If not much or none, you're doing fine.
Dan

Yes, I have trees. See the attachments.
I've got a Winegard HD7694P mounted on a J-Mast at the sweet spot with 75 feet of RG-6 cable to an Insignia NS-DXA1 converter box. I have a ground block at the house entry.

I found the sweet spot by mounting a DB2 on a pole lamp and moveing it around on the southwest side of the house pointing at 220 degrees magnetic.

When it rains and blows some channels drop out enough to be annoying. Snow for some reason doesn't seem to bother as much.

I'm going to wait awhile and see what happens. I'm not a serious TV watcher at this point.

Thanks Kevin. I'll experiment a bit more w/ my monoprice.com antenna this weekend. One thing I'm dubious about is convincing my wife to let me set this up in the attic and dealing w/ the whole mess of drilling holes and trying to run cable through the house (which I have never done before, and would probably screw up). Would I be able to just mount my antenna on the side paneling of my house (pointed towards Bremerton, as you say) and run the cable down into the coaxial cable connection panel on the the same side of the house, and just swap out the old Comcast feed w/ the antenna feed into the house? Would this likely work or would the signal get severely degraded? The current cable connection has a two-way splitter which brings the cable feed to the living room and bedroom TVs.

A proper outdoor antenna, like the one I mentioned, should have enough gain to overcome the losses from a long cable run and a splitter. If not, a pre-amp mounted at the antenna will definitely overcome a long cable and splitter. A small indoor antenna mounted outside likely wouldn't work, the losses would be too high.

But yes, you should try experimenting with what you have first. Try different locations, inside and outside. And don't rule out rabbit ears, they will most likely work better than the monoprice antenna, which as far as I can tell, is only a UHF antenna.

-- Kevin

dla26
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

Hi Dan,

My cross streets are 169th Ave. NE and NE 100th Pl in Redmond. That intersection is right in front of my house, but they're both small streets. 166th Ave. NE and NE 100th St. is the closest relatively large intersection.

Here's how it appears in Google Maps satellite view. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=10043+169th+Ave.+NE+98052&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.167389,79.101563&ie=UTF8&ll=47.69032,-122.114027&spn=0.001231,0.002414&t=h&z=19&iwloc=A)

Thanks for any advice you can provide!

Apologies if this is a dumb question...are there quality differences with the digital tuner in the TV? I have a 2 yr old Panasonic plasma and was wondering if any amount of my bad digital reception may be attributable to the quality of the tuner?

Thanks Kevin. I'll experiment a bit more w/ my monoprice.com antenna this weekend. One thing I'm dubious about is convincing my wife to let me set this up in the attic and dealing w/ the whole mess of drilling holes and trying to run cable through the house (which I have never done before, and would probably screw up). Would I be able to just mount my antenna on the side paneling of my house (pointed towards Bremerton, as you say) and run the cable down into the coaxial cable connection panel on the the same side of the house, and just swap out the old Comcast feed w/ the antenna feed into the house? Would this likely work or would the signal get severely degraded? The current cable connection has a two-way splitter which brings the cable feed to the living room and bedroom TVs.

Something to consider is that many attics (even new construction) have small openings to the outside at the roof-wall corner (where the roof intersects with the vertical wall). If you look up in the corner, you may find a spot to slip the coax through. Somewhat obviously, try to pick the side which is closest above the connection panel. Then you'll be able to drop the coax more-or-less straight down to the connection panel and minimize the coax run.

Per other comments, outside always works better than inside. Also, you'll probably want to ground any roof/attic mounted antenna. There may be a grounding cable/rod in the vicinity of the existing coax connection panel (the splitter in the panel should be grounded already). Channel Master has a pamphlet covering general antenna installation, which covers grounding. It's pretty easy and would actually increase the safety of your house, overall.

I'm a bit disgusted at the surprise switch to VHF by 9, 11 and 13 last Friday. I wrote them the following, but doubt it will do much good:
Generally the stations on VHF-lo are staying on UHF and the ones on VHF-hi are returning, although that's not always the case, e.g. KIRO 7. Apparently also some on VHF-lo 6 are returning, perhaps others.

However, with the switch to digital on June 12, your channels 9, 11 and 13 went dark.
Apparently you switched from a UHF digital broadcast signal to VHF.
In all the repetitive advertising over the last year about the change, you never mentioned that key piece of information on air!
Actually, it was rational to assume that they'd all return to their former positions. Why would they not return? The arguments include claims about multipath problems and some kind of "mobile TV". But arguments agiainst returning should be considered with the fact that many people now can't receive any TV other than home shopping networks, religious shows, Korean and Chinese and Spanish TV and maybe some PBS. Apparently they are using all the power. Apparently there is no power left for broadcasting ABC, NBC and CBS programs.


It is the fact that they aren't doing that
Viewers, like myself with a UHF antenna must buy a UHF/VHF antenna if we want to watch your programming.
But VHF is BETTER for viewers who are farther away. The second antenna gives you two aim points and mixing down two antennas of very different frequencies is cheap.

Unfortunately, combination antennas don’t have the maximum range of a UHF only antenna – not to mention that I would have to buy a new amplifier as well. Also, I’m reluctant to risk a degradation of the signal from the other major stations (4,5,7). As it is, when my neighbor mows his lawn once a week, my audio and video begin to break up.
So you don't really have it all going on, do you? Of course if you could get your neighbor to take off his tin foil hat, you might be fine.


I’m not so concerned about the other channels (the religious stations, Spanish stations, Korean stations and shopping channel which have always had an excellent signal strength here but have programming that doesn’t interest most viewers.)
Yet they seem to have taken all the power. KOMO TV is running off a nine volt transistor radio battery, I hear. (I certainly don't SEE them)

Dead Air

Actually KCTS did mention it during their airing of the information about how to connect converter boxes and occasionally during their pledge breaks.

I do not ever recall KSTW doing it nor KCPQ.

BJ

Hello Again -

I don't know about anyone else's area but here on Whidbey our local newspaper doesn't (or at least hasn't) published ANY of the DTV channel listings. Sure they publish the major networks BUT not the sub channels such as 4.2, 5.2, etc. I must also say that I am a little tight wad and if I can save a dollar I will so I don't purchase TV Guide or similar publication.

Well, I located a website that will let you CUSTOMIZE the listings for YOUR area, show only the channels you actually get, and then print it in grid format.... Best of all - it's FREE!!!!!!

If you do not already know about the site it is called "TitanTV - Free Customizable TV Listings" located at

http://www.titantv.com

Should you decide to register (I did once I saw what it allowed you to do) it too is FREE.

What better thing can a tightwad like me want?

BJ

If you do not already know about the site it is called "TitanTV - Free Customizable TV Listings" located at

http://www.titantv.com

http://www.tvguide.com and http://www.zap2it.com are among others that also provide this service.

Zap2it is the listing that you get for free with Windows Media Center.

Dead Air
Actually KCTS did mention it during their airin of the information about how to connect converter boxes and occasionally during their pledge breaks.
I do not ever recall KSTW doing it nor KCPQ.

I think the real question is whether or not KOMO, KING and KIRO ever mentioned that they were not going to go back to their old channels. It took me some time to figure that out and I certainly didn't learn it from them. This change basically means that I can't pick those stations up even though I always could on VHF (when I had the right antennas in place).

The current situation, as I see it, is you can't call for help from KOMO or KING because you get either a busy signal or nothing but weird sounds. KIRO has the switch board answer and patch you to some useless information about getting a converter box and then calling the FCC. The FCC says to call KIRO, KING and KOMO. The only station operating a help line seriously that I can see is KCTS, which has an 800 number and actually has people who will talk to you. Of course they have a history of setting up huge phone banks to "talk" to people.

Whidbey wrote:

... "You may want to consider buying a VHF only antenna." http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13
------------------------------------------------------------------

Whidbey,
It would be very interesting to see a comprehensive analysis of that Yagi, because it is close to what I was planning to build for myself this weekend to try to recover Channels 9 and 11. I'll ask on the AVS "Build Your Own Antenna Forum" to see if anyone there has worked with this one and if yes, I'll report any results (and/or links) good or bad, here.

In my opinion from Whidbey Island or anyone so far away from the transmitters (with some blockage - hills/trees/buildings), this short Yagi doesn't have enough poop to do the job.

Regarding DX reception from Seattle, I established Channel 12/35 (580 Kw ERP) with a 15 bar Yagi I built, in spite of the above mentioned obstructions. :D Attached is a screen-shot, suggesting KVOS is quite unlikely to be received in Seattle. BS! Spephen, the Chief Engineer of KVOS was amazed (by my result) and he asked me to share my antenna design so he could build one for himself.

OK, I'll step on top of my catbox and suggest this: based on my reception of KVOS for almost 30 years in VHF on a FINCO 10-bar Yagi and having lost them upon their early transition I built a specifically designed 15-bar UHF Yagi for '35' with a coaxial balun (not a Radio-Shack generic unit) it seems UHF signals are there - but antenna gain VS loss thru ancient coax is a REAL issue (per KellyatKOMO's lessons to us). Front-end overloading (although I have not seen it here) I believe it as well.

It seems to me 'fringe' OTA receivers have a WAY better chance than 'us locals' ...
Jim

Q13 does send out HD, they do NFL Football on Sunday, and some primetime programming (I believe 24 is in HD, as well as Prison Break). A show like Stargate is syndicated, and I doubt Q13 has the equipment to record and turnaround programming like that, so yes, they do send out 16:9 content in a 4:3 window on a 16:9 channel. Effectively, anything that FOX sends down the line in HD, Q13 can pass through to the transmitter, but they can't record anything or play anything back in HD.

Everything we broadcast from FOX network (with no exceptions I can think of), are 16x9 HD. Local commercials that we air within FOX network programming can be either 4x3 SD, or 16x9 HD...It all depends on whether or not the advertizer pays for the HD run of their spot.

Currently, we actually run 2 streams...a 16x9 HD stream, and a 4x3 SD stream. We feed some content providers via fiber, Comcast, FiOS, DirecTV...Others like Dish Network and Shaw pick up our signal OTA. They all do a down-convert and center cut to program their SD channel with. Those that we also feed an SD feed via fiber now only use that for back up.

We do not do any letterboxing of HD content to feed the SD channels. If the network does it, that's the way we feed it. Usually, it's commercials they do this to.

All locally generated programming and syndicated programming that we air that is native 4x3, we up-convert and add pillars to make 16x9. The only programs that we center-cut (for SD distribution only) are news and WMW (which we produce in 16x9). Notice when watching the HD feeds that they are center-cut protected for the graphics.

SO, if you are having letter box problems, it's probably because you have a setting wrong with your receiver/cpnverter/display...Postage stamping 16x9 so it fits in a 4x3 frame looks really bad, especially on a small screen.

CHeers!
JRZ

I hung my old RS antenna VHF/UHFfrom the rafters inside my garage and ran a scan with my TR40cra. I got channels 9, 11, 12, 13 and 24, with the antenna pointed south. 12 and 24 are UHF and I was surprised to receive them since I had the UHF "jaws" folded closed and pointed in the opposite direction.
I receive all the other channels via my roof mounted CM4228.

The only station operating a help line seriously that I can see is KCTS, which has an 800 number and actually has people who will talk to you. Of course they have a history of setting up huge phone banks to "talk" to people.

Off topic, but I want to throw in, phonebanks notwithstanding, I think we've ALL appreciated everyone from KOMO, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ/KMYQ who've provided a HUGE amount of troubleshooting tips and information here. (And, of course, anyone from the other stations who've helped, but might've slipped my mind.) Thanks!

Well it's been a little disconcerting, being a six year DTV veteran that got caught unprepared for the transition. :(

My girlfriend on Whidbey also lost 9, 11, and 13. :(

I don't recall hearing from anyone whose reception improved on those channels.

Actually, my reception on 13 did improve. I am using a funky Phillips indoor thing with internal amp (adjustable, set to MIN) and has rabbit ears for VHF. I assume the guts of the flat rectangular part is some sort of UHF loop.

Before the switch I could get 13 once in a while but was not watchable. (and 11 were a little better but not 100% reliable) This is a bedroom TV that I use mostly on 4,5,7 to fall asleep to or wake up by. Now I can get 9, 11 and 13 pretty well. 13 is strong enough for a lock even though the signal meter bounces around somewhat. I'm using the Channel Master D2A box.

Has KVOS Bellingham moved off of their great Orcas Island site and relocated to Granite Falls yet?

After several days of observing the behavior of channel 13, I have some comments. Atmospheric and other noise seems to really affect this channel at my location and I am in a rural area with no local noise. It will reliably come in starting in the early evening through the morning, but will not lock in during the day.

Having worked for a wireless company in this area in the past, we used various models to predict the area new site would cover. Rarely did the model predict actual conditions and a lot of tweaking with antennas etc. was required. I am sure the new models are much better, but I think KCPQ didn't do many field tests or on air tests like 9 and 11 did. Some more work is definitely needed.

Reading various other threads from other markets, Seattle is not the only market with problems on these new VHF digital channels. There are a couple markets that are negotiating with the FCC to go back to their UHF channels until the digital VHF issues are ironed out.

On another note with all this antenna talk I saw this link posted on old style antennas. Some of those are pretty interesting:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/antenna_index.html

rdvegas wrote:

Has KVOS Bellingham moved off of their great Orcas Island site and relocated to Granite Falls yet?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
rdvegas,
Stephen, the Chief Engineer of KVOS wrote this to me when I asked the same question a couple months ago:
----
Jim,
The FCC site has some errors (gasp) in it's info. First, the 1000 kW transmitter site in Snohomish county is fictional. It exists only on paper. It was corporate brouhaha to enhance the speculative value of the KVOS property for potential buyers. Next, the 12 kW license is for our back-up transmitter co-located with our main transmitter on Orcas Island. It is not on normally. When it is on, we might as well be off the air it is so under powered. So indeed you are only dealing with our 580 kW transmitter. I am working on getting this info corrected on the FCC site.
Stephen.

Hi Dan,

My cross streets are 169th Ave. NE and NE 100th Pl in Redmond. That intersection is right in front of my house, but they're both small streets. 166th Ave. NE and NE 100th St. is the closest relatively large intersection.

Here's how it appears in Google Maps satellite view. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=10043+169th+Ave.+NE+98052&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.167389,79.101563&ie=UTF8&ll=47.69032,-122.114027&spn=0.001231,0.002414&t=h&z=19&iwloc=A)

Thanks for any advice you can provide!

I just realized I should probably have included my original post to give the context of my address, just in case someone missed the question the first time around:

I set up my HT about a year ago and dropped DirecTV and just used Netflix instead. It's been working out great, but since I'm getting a new PC soon, I decided I should add an OTA antenna to take advantage of the media center functionality. (Using my Xbox 360 as the media extender.) Missing the NBA playoffs has caused me to re-think my Netflix-only strategy. :p

I tried to do some due diligence reading on the forums but got lost very quickly. I'm hoping someone can tell me:

1. What antenna I should get
2. If there is any other equipment I need. For example, I assume I need some kind of tuner in the new PC, but are there any preferred types/things to look for?

Here is the signal strength map for my home: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c534b316e2765b (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc534b316e2765b).

Since I don't like having to settle, I'd like to get as many channels as I can. :) I'm planning on installing this on my roof.

If there's any other info that you would need to help with suggestions, please let me know.

I posted the same question (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1154772) in HDTV Technical, but I thought there might be a Puget Sound area factor I need to take into consideration, with all of the tall trees, recent windstorms, etc. Someone from that forum recommended a Winegard 7694 for the antenna, but I wanted to see if anyone disagreed with that. For the tuner, I got a recommendation for a dual tuner Hauppauge.

Thanks!

dla26,

Going by the TVFool results, the Winegard 7694 should do you just fine. You may even get the Tiger Mountain stations (33.1, 45.1, 51.1, 56.1), even though they are about 90 degrees off axis, just because the field strength should be so strong where you are.

That's great to hear. Thanks for the confirmation! I just needed to know there wasn't unique about this part of the country that would make the Winegard a bad choice -- especially given all of the recent discussion about some people having trouble getting a signal from some stations after the the transition.

I just went to the Winegard site to get some last minute details on the 7694 to place my order, but then I noticed the 8200U. It seems much more powerful. Would that be overkill? Or is it possible for the antenna to be too strong? For a price difference of only $100 or so, I'd like to get the best that I can get.

Sorry for all the questions...

I'm a bit disgusted at the surprise switch to VHF by 9, 11 and 13 last Friday. I wrote them the following, but doubt it will do much good:

I’ve been watching your digital stations for several years.
I live in Marysville and have a 30’ high mast and a deep fringe UHF antenna and mast mounted UHF amplifier.
It has taken me several years to get just the right antenna and accessories positioned just right to reliably receive the available digital channels in the Seattle area. Channels 9 and 13 have always been among the strongest signals with 11 becoming reliable within the last 3 years or so.

However, with the switch to digital on June 12, your channels 9, 11 and 13 went dark.
Apparently you switched from a UHF digital broadcast signal to VHF.
In all the repetitive advertising over the last year about the change, you never mentioned that key piece of information on air!

Viewers, like myself with a UHF antenna must buy a UHF/VHF antenna if we want to watch your programming.

Unfortunately, combination antennas don’t have the maximum range of a UHF only antenna – not to mention that I would have to buy a new amplifier as well. Also, I’m reluctant to risk a degradation of the signal from the other major stations (4,5,7). As it is, when my neighbor mows his lawn once a week, my audio and video begin to break up. I’m not so concerned about the other channels (the religious stations, Spanish stations, Korean stations and shopping channel which have always had an excellent signal strength here but have programming that doesn’t interest most viewers.)

Have you considered UHF repeaters in local areas, or making boxed DVD sets of your popular shows available to local libraries?


Just to set the record straight, I did reply to Glennharvey's e-mail. He sent it at 10:51pm on Monday, and I replied at 10:30am on Tuesday (along with about 50 others)...Here's what I wrote him:

Glen:

You will need to add-in a VHF antenna to receive channels 9, 11 and 13 now as we all switched back to VHF. You can combine a high-band VHF antenna with your existing antenna without degrading it’s performance at all. I would suggest that you check out the different types of high-band VHF antennas that are available to see which would work for you. I would suspect that you would need a high gain version based on your location, but again; combining it in shouldn’t be too big a problem. I use www.solidsignal.com as a reference for types of antennas and combining equipment, but I’m sure you have your own sources as you already have the UHF system installed.


I agree that the need to have VHF as well as UHF reception capability wasn’t publicized as well as it probably should have been, but the information has been out there, and available for some time. I just wish WE had made a bigger deal about it instead of focusing on the need for converters as much as the industry did.


We are looking at digital translators, but that is an option that will not happen overnight, and probably will not be allowed by the FCC (under current rules that HOPEFULLY will be changed). Currently, digital translators are only allowed to fill in areas that are within your grade a signal area that are challenged due to terrain or buildings…They are not allowed to extend the service area. Hopefully, this will change if enough viewers such as yourself make your desires known to the FCC and your state representatives.


I think that is about as "Open A Kimona" response as could reasonably be expected...I just hope he has subsequently resolved his issues with receiving our station.

Cheers!
JRZ

I just went to the Winegard site to get some last minute details on the 7694 to place my order, but then I noticed the 8200U. It seems much more powerful. Would that be overkill? Or is it possible for the antenna to be too strong? For a price difference of only $100 or so, I'd like to get the best that I can get.

Sorry for all the questions...

Look at the physical specs for that antenna, it's huge! It's so huge because it also receives VHF-low (channels 2-6), which are now no longer needed in this area. Get a good 7-69 antenna. Look at the different models in the 769x series from Winegard. Also check solidsignal.com for prices, they will be cheaper than buying from the Winegard online store.

Look at the physical specs for that antenna, it's huge! It's so huge because it also receives VHF-low (channels 2-6), which are now no longer needed in this area. Get a good 7-69 antenna. Look at the different models in the 769x series from Winegard. Also check solidsignal.com for prices, they will be cheaper than buying from the Winegard online store.

Thanks again for all the advice. I decided to get the 7698, since it seemed to be the best of the 769x series. I'm thinking that for a few extra bucks, I'd rather get something that I'm not going to regret and need to replace in a couple years.

Now to get a tuner for my PC. I believe that's all I'd need, right?

Thanks again for the great advice!

McFly9000 wrote:

... "On another note with all this antenna talk I saw this link posted on old style antennas. Some of those are pretty interesting:"

http://www.earlytelevision.org/antenna_index.html
--------------------------------------------------------------
McFly9000,

That is a fantastic website and thank you for sharing it with us. My favorite antenna shown there is from 1946-1949: the Telesine 'hoola-hoop' and I'd love to park one of those suckers square in front of my uphill neighbor's picture windows to see their response! :D Whether it works or not, it's artwork! :)

I took the liberty and posted the website on the "How to build a UHF Antenna" page here on AVS, giving you credit. (A photo of that crazy antenna is attached below).

Some of those guys are restoring ancient TV sets and being a packrat, I saved some stuff from 1950s tv sets I disassembled 35+ years ago including knobs in good condition (they usually perish). I zapped them a note offering them and/or hard to get vacuum tubes for their restoration work. If I dig deeply enough I might even find some old flyback transformers. AVS is an amazing forum!
Jim

Thanks again for all the advice. I decided to get the 7698, since it seemed to be the best of the 769x series. I'm thinking that for a few extra bucks, I'd rather get something that I'm not going to regret and need to replace in a couple years.

Now to get a tuner for my PC. I believe that's all I'd need, right?

Thanks again for the great advice!

Do you have something on which to mount the antenna? Chimney mount, tripod mount, mast along side the house, etc? And enough RG6 cable and (preferably) compression F-connectors? You can get the cable, connectors, and tools at Home Depot/Lowes.

As for the PC, yes hardware-wise that should be all you need for now. Maybe a video card with a TV-out (if hooking up to an older TV), or HDMI or DVI out for newer TVs. For software, you could use Windows MCE, MythTV, SageTV, etc. I personally use MythTV with Linux (they have a Windows version, too).

-- Kevin

Do you have something on which to mount the antenna? Chimney mount, tripod mount, mast along side the house, etc? And enough RG6 cable and (preferably) compression F-connectors? You can get the cable, connectors, and tools at Home Depot/Lowes.

As for the PC, yes hardware-wise that should be all you need for now. Maybe a video card with a TV-out (if hooking up to an older TV), or HDMI or DVI out for newer TVs. For software, you could use Windows MCE, MythTV, SageTV, etc. I personally use MythTV with Linux (they have a Windows version, too).

-- Kevin

I was planning on having a professional install it. The antenna comes with 75-ohm cable, but I can ask the installer to put in RG6. I'll also ask about the compression F-connectors.

I am planning on connecting my PC to my TV via my Xbox 360's media center extender functionality over my home network. I was thinking it would go as follows: antenna connects to PC via cable, PC connects to Xbox 360 via wireless home network (though I could put in CAT-5 if necessary), 360 connects to receiver, receiver connects to projector and speakers.

In that kind of set up, do I need a high end sound/graphics card? Or does the 360 handle all of the audio/video processing?

I know nothing about using an XBox 360 as a MCE extender. However, I do have experience with watching HDTV over wi-fi. Basically, 802.11a/b/g are useless. You need at least 802.11n. I bit the bullet and ran cable between my MythTV backend and frontends. I use gigabit ethernet, but plain old 10/100 would work just fine.

If you have more PC or XBox questions, you should probably ask in the HTPC forum, as we are getting off topic. :)

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin

Seattle = Xbox land, so it's a local issue, no? :)

Sorry for going a bit OT -- taking this now to HTPC. Thanks again!

Yes, I have trees. See the attachments.
I've got a Winegard HD7694P mounted on a J-Mast at the sweet spot with 75 feet of RG-6 cable to an Insignia NS-DXA1 converter box. I have a ground block at the house entry.

I found the sweet spot by mounting a DB2 on a pole lamp and moveing it around on the southwest side of the house pointing at 220 degrees magnetic.

When it rains and blows some channels drop out enough to be annoying. Snow for some reason doesn't seem to bother as much.

I'm going to wait awhile and see what happens. I'm not a serious TV watcher at this point.

waltc_wa
That many trees that close will definitely give you some problems. Combine that with your small antenna, gain wise, and I'm not surprised. Although your elevation is high, you're a long way from Seattle. I would bet your actual level is quite low, but your tuner is sensitive enough to pull it in. When signals get that weak, it doesn't take much to loose them. An amplifier might help, but those trees might have already chopped up the signal enough that it might not maje any difference. You could try a Rat Shack one, and if it doesn't help, return it.
Dan

Apologies if this is a dumb question...are there quality differences with the digital tuner in the TV? I have a 2 yr old Panasonic plasma and was wondering if any amount of my bad digital reception may be attributable to the quality of the tuner?

98133
Only dumb question is the one you already know the answer to!
Yes, there's a vast difference in tuners, even fron the same brand. I've noticed that most Panasonic plasmas have pretty good tuners. They tend to have large buffers in their decoders, which means they take a little longer to tune in tough signals (not just weak ones but those that are ugly from trees and buildings, etc), but lock on well after that. What is surprising is that some of the better ones, in the last year or so, have been on the cheapest TV's or STB's. I wish my Direct box was half as good as the CM7000 $60 converter.
I would look more to the more common factors of location, antenna type, location, trees, location, cabling, uh....did I mention location?
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

I am planning on connecting my PC to my TV via my Xbox 360's media center extender functionality over my home network. I was thinking it would go as follows: antenna connects to PC via cable, PC connects to Xbox 360 via wireless home network (though I could put in CAT-5 if necessary), 360 connects to receiver, receiver connects to projector and speakers.

In that kind of set up, do I need a high end sound/graphics card? Or does the 360 handle all of the audio/video processing?

I do precisely this. One PC and 2 Xboxes.

The 360 acting as extender receives compressed a/v streams from the PC via ethernet and does all the decoding and processing locally. Your PC's graphics and audio systems are not involved at all when watching TV on an extender.

On a PC you do not need a "high end" video card even to do 1080p. A $59 nVidia will do 1080p just fine. You *might* get somewhat better picture quality with more video horsepower because along with more money comes things like better deinterlacing.

All of this does quite nicely for watching Seattle-area OTA HD broadcasts. I have been doing this with Windows and extenders for almost 5 years now. (Now if I could only get KSTW without having to mess with my attic antenna post-transition...)

Apologies if this is a dumb question...are there quality differences with the digital tuner in the TV? I have a 2 yr old Panasonic plasma and was wondering if any amount of my bad digital reception may be attributable to the quality of the tuner?

There's a huge difference, and as Dan said, the newer tuners seem to be much more capable.

I have four tuners:

A four year old Fusion PC tuner - worthless
A one year old Avermedia USB PC tuner - marginal
A two year old Samsung LCD - locks on to several channels that the Avermedia can't tune
A DTVPal $40 converter box - the best of the lot by far.

I'm a long way from the transmitters, and the neighbors have fir trees in my path just to complicate matters. In a stronger reception area there might not be as big a difference. But the newer tuners seem to be much better at dealing with multipath and weak signal.

Located on English Hill in Redmond (Corner of 173rd Pl NE and 174th Ave NE) using a Channel Master 4228 up about 25' on a telescoping mast. I'm using a Channel Master Spartan 3 0064dbs Preamp with about 75 feet of RG6 to a diplexer spiltter for a bedroom Zenith DTT900 and tv. The other leg goes to a second Splitter with a CM 7000 for the DVD Recorder and a Zenith DTT900 for the main TV. The ATSC tuner in my Sony Rear Projection TV is worthless. With all of this, I get all Seattle VHF and UHF quite respectively without a rotor. I am shooting through trees and if it gets windy enough, I have issues but haven't seen it really bad for quite a while. The 4228 seems to have reasonably good sensitivity at Channel 9 and the Preamp is both VHF and UHF. I think I found a winning combination for where I am and what I'm trying to do.

JimL in Redmond.

...
On another note with all this antenna talk I saw this link posted on old style antennas. Some of those are pretty interesting:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/antenna_index.html

Thanks for that link. I remember having a gigantic antenna on our roof when I was a kid in the late 50's. It lasted a couple years and then blew down in one hellacious wind storm. I never knew what brand it was. I recognize it now as the Finco unit pictured in the 1946-1949 group. Talk about HIGH wind load! I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. It also weighed a ton. My dad and brother took it down with great effort.

Note some of the prices: $6.95!

I'm in Bothell and have a Wingard Square Shooter 2000 on the rooftop, pointing south. I can pick up channels 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, 13.1, 16.1, 22.1, 33.1 and 44.1 (including all sub channels) - all with high signal strength.
Questions to All:
(1) After rescan, I have repeated (duplicate) channels 9.1, 11.1, 13.1 & 33.1 on my plasma HDTV. How can I eliminate this annoyance?
(2) For some channels 4.1, 5.1 & 7.1, picture quality breaks up even though the signal strength is +90% (especially in the afternoon & early evening). Would an attenuator solve this problem? If it is, how do I find out what is the proper ?db attenuator to use?
Thank you.

(1) After rescan, I have repeated (duplicate) channels 9.1, 11.1, 13.1 & 33.1 on my plasma HDTV. How can I eliminate this annoyance?


You will have to go into your channel list and delete the duplicate channels. You can also delete all the channels and then rescan.

With my Panasonic Plasma, I had to do a factory reset or it wouldn't forget the old channel.

This probably should be in the antenna section, but thought I'd share with my Seattle friends first...

So I was ruminating about my setup and had this crazy thought...

"I'm no HAM, or engineer, but do I really need the 'longer' elements of my vhf/uhf antenna?"

If all I really need is ch. 7 freqs and above, roughly 175mhz +, which equals 1/2 wave of 37" and shorter, the extra elements are just picking up 'noise' right?

So I took my amp out of the mix and without moving the antenna my signal strength for 9.1 and 11.1 went from 80% to zero, 13.1 went from 95% to 50%.

Next I carefully 'unwraped' the link wire between my 2nd narrowest element (52" total width = 108mhz) and 3rd narrowest (66" total width = 85mhz) *this disconnected the rest of them 4th (78" total width= 72mhz) and 5th (96" total width=58mhz).... and guess what?

Now, 9.1 and 11.1 are 50% and 13.1 is 80%. So I actually increased my signal gain (or eliminated noise) by disconnecting the elements that were longer than I needed.

Doesn't appear to have effected my UHF much.

Now I'm wondering if I would gain anything by either shortening the 2nd element from 52" to 36" in total width.... and maybe move the upper and lower 'wings' (which are between 1st and 2nd elements) back a bit so they are behind all of the active elements.... hmmmm

tvfool for my location
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a5e21ced00f

I'll post a pic shortly....

With my Panasonic Plasma, I had to do a factory reset or it wouldn't forget the old channel.

Another trick is to disconnect the antenna and scan so it finds *nothing*, then reconnect and scan. This works on some TV's for getting rid of junk channels.

thegeeknme - makes sense. All the elements add *something* to the signal at your tuner. If an element is not a length required for the stations (frequencies) of interest then they are adding "noise". Although that term is meant in the loosest sense of the word here. Your experiment is just proving that "cut" antennas designed for a particular frequency do work better in most cases than a multi-element unit covering many frequencies. The name of the game is to get them most signal of the desired frequencies and the least of everything else. You could also try chopping off the longer elements to equal the lengths of desired frequencies. Phasing would be a problem though, so that might prove very tricky.

thegeeknme - makes sense. All the elements add *something* to the signal at your tuner. If an element is not a length required for the stations (frequencies) of interest then they are adding "noise". Although that term is meant in the loosest sense of the word here. Your experiment is just proving that "cut" antennas designed for a particular frequency do work better in most cases than a multi-element unit covering many frequencies. The name of the game is to get them most signal of the desired frequencies and the least of everything else. You could also try chopping off the longer elements to equal the lengths of desired frequencies. Phasing would be a problem though, so that might prove very tricky.

Just to add some anecdotal evidence. My neighbor was experiencing difficulty receiving Hi VHF channels 9 and 11 after the transition and he installed an old 2-13 antenna he had but reception was not improved enough. He gave the antenna a "haircut" to limit it's reception to 7-13 and ultimately was able to get good reception on 9 and 11.

Another trick is to disconnect the antenna and scan so it finds *nothing*, then reconnect and scan. This works on some TV's for getting rid of junk channels.
Yep. On my other TV I had to set to "Cable" to scan, then rescanned it on "Antenna" (without the factory reset). It's pretty much you have to muck around with a lot of things to get it right.

Tuguet, quarque & allen98311,

Thanks for your suggestions. I have eliminated the "repeat channels".

I have a RadioShack Model: U-75R UHF antenna I've been using for ~5yrs. It's served me well, but it now is unable to receive KCPQ 13 in the VHF band. I need to dig up a replacement quick for my place in Kenmore.

I have a RadioShack Model: U-75R UHF antenna I've been using for ~5yrs. It's served me well, but it now is unable to receive KCPQ 13 in the VHF band. I need to dig up a replacement quick for my place in Kenmore.

Unless you are blocked by hills or lots of trees. I am in NE corner of Kenmore and the HD-1080 serves me well on top of my roof. A side note, buy.com has a better deal than Amazon.

I was struggling to pull this in 30% ish yesterday(Saturday) and was really frustrated by the fact that other channels from the same tower(i assume) 7.1, 16.1, and 5.1, were 90% plus.

Now tonight... 4.1 100%, others same great signal as yesterday. Or is it just the weather?

tvfool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a5e21ced00f

I doubt your issue is weather-related, but more than likely a reflector causing multipath has moved. It could be as simple as your neighbor moved their car five feet.

I was struggling to pull this in 30% ish yesterday(Saturday) and was really frustrated by the fact that other channels from the same tower(i assume) 7.1, 16.1, and 5.1, were 90% plus.

Now tonight... 4.1 100%, others same great signal as yesterday. Or is it just the weather?

tvfool:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a5e21ced00f

5 and 16 are on the same tower, but 4 and 7 are on separate towers. These towers are several hundred feet apart (the towers on Capital Hill are closer spaced). I have no problem receiving 5, 7 or 16 here, but 4 is difficult (there are a few hot spots on my roof, none near any suitable places to mount an antenna). The antenna pattern is much lower to the west, which doesn't help. If KOMO replaces the VHF antenna with one for UHF at the top of the tower, it should help reception for many of us. If a couple of my neighbors cut down their trees it would really help in my case (I could actually see the towers from my roof) :)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009367139_brier22.html

5 and 16 are on the same tower, but 4 and 7 are on separate towers. These towers are several hundred feet apart (the towers on Capital Hill are closer spaced). I have no problem receiving 5, 7 or 16 here, but 4 is difficult (there are a few hot spots on my roof, none near any suitable places to mount an antenna). The antenna pattern is much lower to the west, which doesn't help. If KOMO replaces the VHF antenna with one for UHF at the top of the tower, it should help reception for many of us. If a couple of my neighbors cut down their trees it would really help in my case (I could actually see the towers from my roof) :)

I have no problem with 4.1, 7.1 & 16.1. Whereas 5.1 drops out sometime for unknown reasons. I suspect it's due to multipath signal and rather than relocating the antenna again, wonder if anyone has any suggestions.

I have no problem with 4.1, 7.1 & 16.1. Whereas 5.1 drops out sometime for unknown reasons. I suspect it's due to multipath signal and rather than relocating the antenna again, wonder if anyone has any suggestions.

Could you post a link to your 'tvfool.com' report for your address?

Your previous post said you had problems with 4, 5 and 7... are the problems for 4 and 7 gone? What did you change?

Is your Wingard Square Shooter 2000 VHF/UHF or UHF only? Amplified?

I'm up several feet at Burrows Bay, open to Vancouver island. I did get KVOS and a shopping station quite well transmiited from Orcas Island. Also got KCPQ good. No other Seattle stations. Bummer because I did get KOMO and KING analog good enough to watch.

No longer get KCPQ thanks to its transition to VHF.

No longer get KCPQ thanks to its transition to VHF.

Man that's a toughs spot.... maybe worth some research into Free-to-Air satellite.... converters are a bit more, but at least it would be free and decent quality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-air

btw, FTA can use 3ft diameter sat. dishes which are easier to mount, they don't have to be 6ft ones...

Maybe someone else has some good resources to offer up...

Here in Duvall I lost all the channel 9 (PBS) digital channels and channel 11.1 (CW). Ironically, the only channels we WANTED to get OTA. (PBS for the additional shows, and CW because it's no HD on DirecTV.)

Could you post a link to your 'tvfool.com' report for your address?

Your previous post said you had problems with 4, 5 and 7... are the problems for 4 and 7 gone? What did you change?

Is your Wingard Square Shooter 2000 VHF/UHF or UHF only? Amplified?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a245613567c

After spending many hours repositioning my antenna, problems with channels 4.1 & 7.1 are mostly minor. It's a different story with 5.1, sometime it drops out so bad I can't really watch it (even though the signal strength meter reads 76%). Surprisingly, ch 5.1 is good tonight.

If I'm not wrong, ch 5 & 16 are beamed from the same tower. I'm receiving ch 16 in excellent shape but having problems with ch 5.

Yes, I'm using a Wingard Square Shooter 2000 (amplified) VHF/UHF. Per manufacturer's spec:
UHF ch. 14-69 (0-50 miles)
VHF ch. 7-13 (0-40 miles)

Thanks

Listers,
As of 9 PM I note KIRO 7.2 is stuck on a repeating RTN (or RTV) loop and the 'Incredible Hulk' was not shown on either their main QA transmitter nor on their Bremerton/Silverdale translator (47). I didn't check the KIRO Vashon translator because I don't currently have the Yagi I built to receive KING-5 (48) in the air. May I assume that was due to a satelite link issue with KIRO?

Secondly, after receiving KVOS-12 (35) perfectly with a solid signal ALWAYS over 50 for over two months, they completely vanished tonight - my set shows its AGC at 100% / no errors / no signal. I think they blew up! :(

If others confirm, I'll zap Stephen a note in the morning to see if something happened on their end because I changed nothing here.
Jim

Here in Duvall I lost all the channel 9 (PBS) digital channels and channel 11.1 (CW). Ironically, the only channels we WANTED to get OTA. (PBS for the additional shows, and CW because it's no HD on DirecTV.)

KSTW 11.1 HD is available on DirecTV.

Listers,
As of 9 PM I note KIRO 7.2 is stuck on a repeating RTN (or RTV) loop and the 'Incredible Hulk' was not shown on either their main QA transmitter nor on their Bremerton/Silverdale translator (47). I didn't check the KIRO Vashon translator because I don't currently have the Yagi I built to receive KING-5 (48) in the air. May I assume that was due to a satelite link issue with KIRO?

Secondly, after receiving KVOS-12 (35) perfectly with a solid signal ALWAYS over 50 for over two months, they completely vanished tonight - my set shows its AVC at 100% / no errors / no signal. I think they blew up! :(

If others confirm, I'll zap Stephen a note in the morning to see if something happened on their end because nothing changed here.
Jim

KIRO 7.2 was having problems around 5:50, the audio/video would drop out for a couple seconds and come back.

I also lost KVOS. 0% signal strength, I can get as high as 73% usually.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009367139_brier22.htmlMany of the "how to use a converter box" video programs produced by KCTS or PBS utilized a Silver Sensor antenna (i.e. Philips PHDTV1). The Silver Sensor has very limited pickup of high-VHF channels, compared to UHF.

Many of the "how to use a converter box" video programs produced by KCTS or PBS utilized a Silver Sensor antenna (i.e. Philips PHDTV1). The Silver Sensor has very limited pickup of high-VHF channels, compared to UHF.

Significant field testing in and around Seattle and limited testing in and around Spokane do not support this statement. Reduced performance, yes. But, not signifcantly. Also, the silver sensor exhibited this curious phenomanom (I somehow don't think I spelled that correctly...) of wanting to pick hi-v stations up off the sides of the antenna. This was more pronounced the lower you got in frequency. In other words 8 was worse than 9 which was worse than 13.

With all of that said, the antenna was really designed for UHF. The fact that it works at all for hi-v is pretty cool.

Here in Duvall I lost all the channel 9 (PBS) digital channels and channel 11.1 (CW). Ironically, the only channels we WANTED to get OTA. (PBS for the additional shows, and CW because it's no HD on DirecTV.)

I'm in south Everett, and with my direcTV AM21 tuner I've lost PBS and KCPQ, unfortunately. The AM21 doesn't really scan - I believe it downloads its channels from a database direcTV keeps, so it is possible they haven't updated the DB? I don't know.

as for CW in HD on direcTV - about a month ago KSTW (CW) was available to me in HD on direcTV, along with KONG HD and KCTS HD. You sure you still don't have it?

Ok Gang:

I can't hold it in much longer. With all the talk about 9, 11 & 13 "disappearing" or "making an irresponsible decision" I'd like to address the single biggest weak link in the entire chain. Also, about the only one I can't excercise some degree of control over. That is, the receive installation and particularly the antenna. I can't control what sort of antenna or receiver you buy or how you install it.

I think we can all agree that any converter box will perform more desirably with a proper antenna so I won't even go into the boxes. I'll stick with antennas.

NEWS FLASH PEOPLE: ANTENNA'S BELONG OUTSIDE!!!!

Anything else is a compromise. As soon as you start making compromises you start to detract from the ability of the receiver to recover the bit stream, whatever it may be, and the situation begins to deteriorate.

The preferred antenna, and I've been saying this for thirty years of broadcasting so a long time before digital, is an all-band directional antenna of appropriate size, mounted outside, at least 30 feet above the ground and not within 30 feet of anything in any horizontal direction. The antenna should be plumbed with a single downlead to a single receiver. The next receiver should get another antenna.

Now we all know this ain't gonna happen. So we start adding maybe a splitter. Maybe a combiner with a second antenna aimed a different direction. There might be a pre-amp somewhere. All of these things will cause various forms of signal distortions. Sometimes these distortions will interfere with a receivers ability to recover the bit stream. Sometimes these various add-ons will result in a situation where a single station is affected.

Take my own installation for instance. I've not bothered to figure out why and I should but check this out. Yagi antenna mounted on the end of the house. It's about 45' above the ground. Looks right down the throat of the KCTS signal and you can, literally, see all six major towers from where the antenna sits and they line up very nicely. It's an ideal situation. I get 4, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16 & 22. Uhhh, Tim.... You're missing 11. Yup. Essentially nowhere to be found. Standard yagi antenna. But it's correctly installed right down to the grounding blocks. Single four port stripline splitter. Quad-sheild RG6 coax. The whole bit. But still, KSTW, when it is there at all, clocks in with about a 17 on my little Radio Shack converter. Everyone else is mid 80's or better with the exception of 12 where I see mid 60's most of the time.

I guess, where I am going with all of this, is that I think a majority of all of these problems we are seeing could be solved with a properly installed outside antenna. On the other hand, I've also been saying for a couple of years now that we'll lose some viewers and we'll gain some that we didn't have before.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to your responses and feedback.

Ok Gang:
...
NEWS FLASH PEOPLE: ANTENNA'S BELONG OUTSIDE!!!!
...

I don't disagree. I do have an indoor antenna, which I bought a while ago as an experiment, and was surprised that I could get almost every channel I wanted OTA. Now that I don't get a few I'm disappointed, but not mad at anyone. I would bet an outdoor antenna would solve my issues. I was just spoiled with my cheap indoor antenna working for the last couple of years... Now that CW is available in HD on direcTV, I mostly use my antenna as a backup and occasionally for a sub channel, so it is not a big deal for me.

About a year and a half ago, I replaced my monster Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna on my roof with a ChannelMaster 4221 thanks to the advise I got from this forum. It solved the reception problems I was getting with KCPQ.

My to my wife's chagrin, I kept the RS antenna out in the garage, just in case the transition to VHF didn't work out so well.

After the transition to VHF, KCPQ came in but suffered from drop-outs to an annoying degree. KCTS and KSTW were a little better.

So, I dug the RS antenna out and replaced the CM 4221 with it. The problems with the VHF channels went away but KING developed severe drop outs.

Combining both with a UHF/VHF combiner/splitter worked like a charm. The CM 4221 is atop a 5' mast that seperates it from the RS antenna. I'm assuming the 5' extra height gave the UHF channels a little lift as well because I'm getting the Tiger Mountains stations better.

KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ all come in strong from RS VU-120
KOMO, KING, KIRO, KONG, KMYQ all come in strong on CM 4221
The other channels generally improved.

Location: Redmond, top of Education Hill

Ok Gang:

I can't hold it in much longer. With all the talk about 9, 11 & 13 "disappearing" or "making an irresponsible decision" I'd like to address the single biggest weak link in the entire chain. Also, about the only one I can't excercise some degree of control over. That is, the receive installation and particularly the antenna. I can't control what sort of antenna or receiver you buy or how you install it.

I think we can all agree that any converter box will perform more desirably with a proper antenna so I won't even go into the boxes. I'll stick with antennas.

NEWS FLASH PEOPLE: ANTENNA'S BELONG OUTSIDE!!!!

Anything else is a compromise. As soon as you start making compromises you start to detract from the ability of the receiver to recover the bit stream, whatever it may be, and the situation begins to deteriorate.

The preferred antenna, and I've been saying this for thirty years of broadcasting so a long time before digital, is an all-band directional antenna of appropriate size, mounted outside, at least 30 feet above the ground and not within 30 feet of anything in any horizontal direction. The antenna should be plumbed with a single downlead to a single receiver. The next receiver should get another antenna.

Now we all know this ain't gonna happen. So we start adding maybe a splitter. Maybe a combiner with a second antenna aimed a different direction. There might be a pre-amp somewhere. All of these things will cause various forms of signal distortions. Sometimes these distortions will interfere with a receivers ability to recover the bit stream. Sometimes these various add-ons will result in a situation where a single station is affected.

Take my own installation for instance. I've not bothered to figure out why and I should but check this out. Yagi antenna mounted on the end of the house. It's about 45' above the ground. Looks right down the throat of the KCTS signal and you can, literally, see all six major towers from where the antenna sits and they line up very nicely. It's an ideal situation. I get 4, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16 & 22. Uhhh, Tim.... You're missing 11. Yup. Essentially nowhere to be found. Standard yagi antenna. But it's correctly installed right down to the grounding blocks. Single four port stripline splitter. Quad-sheild RG6 coax. The whole bit. But still, KSTW, when it is there at all, clocks in with about a 17 on my little Radio Shack converter. Everyone else is mid 80's or better with the exception of 12 where I see mid 60's most of the time.

I guess, where I am going with all of this, is that I think a majority of all of these problems we are seeing could be solved with a properly installed outside antenna. On the other hand, I've also been saying for a couple of years now that we'll lose some viewers and we'll gain some that we didn't have before.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to your responses and feedback.
I agree with you that reception depends largely on type (UHF, VHF or combo)/quality/location & elevation/orientation, etc. of antenna.

The criteria to change to VHF (ch 9.1 was on UHF) should at the minimum be ZERO impact on folks who have already invested in resources (time + $$) to have a system that worked prior to June 12th switch-over. With that in mind, was the analysis done prior to June 12th based on theoretical analysis "on paper" or based on field test? I can assured you, Sir, that lost of reception due to changes you have not anticipated is very frustrating, especially when one has to purchase a new antenna, re-installtion cost, etc.

http://hdtvprofessor.com/HDTVAlmanac/

10 days later ….

“According to the FCC, 28% of the calls requested help with installing or configuring digital converter boxes that allow TV sets with only analog tuners to receive the digitl TV signals. Another 49% — just about half of the total – called because they were having reception problems. And this just what I expected.

Part of the problem may have been that people with digital tuners — either in a converter box or in a TV set — did not know to rescan after the transition. As part of the switch over, stations in many markets changed their broadcast frequency. (Note that the broadcast frequency is not directly related to the “channel” number that has been assigned to a station.)

Even after rescanning, however, many people continued to have difficulties. Right here in Philadelphia, many people could not receive Channel 6, the local ABC affiliate. Before the transition, the digital broadcasts for this station were in the UHF range, but after the switch the station moved the signal to its assigned frequency in the VHF range. Many people in Philadelphia couldn’t receive the signal, and the FCC has since granted permission for a temporary power boost to see if that helps resolve the problems. Part of the problem, however, is that many people have been sold “digital” TV antennas that actually are no different than that required for an analog TV, except that many of these new antennas are designed to only receive signals in the UHF range. Some people mistakenly thought that none of the new digital broadcasts would be in the VHF range, but that’s not the case. In many major markets, some stations are still broadcasting in the VHF range. To receive these signals, you need at least a set of “rabbit ears”: the kind of antenna with two rods (as opposed to must UHF antennas which are just a wire loop). If you go to www.antennaweb.org, you can find a listing of the television stations that you can expect to receive at your location, and which ones are VHF or UHF.”

Ok Gang:

I can't hold it in much longer. With all the talk about 9, 11 & 13 "disappearing" or "making an irresponsible decision" I'd like to address the single biggest weak link in the entire chain. Also, about the only one I can't excercise some degree of control over. That is, the receive installation and particularly the antenna. I can't control what sort of antenna or receiver you buy or how you install it.

I think we can all agree that any converter box will perform more desirably with a proper antenna so I won't even go into the boxes. I'll stick with antennas.

NEWS FLASH PEOPLE: ANTENNA'S BELONG OUTSIDE!!!!

Anything else is a compromise. As soon as you start making compromises you start to detract from the ability of the receiver to recover the bit stream, whatever it may be, and the situation begins to deteriorate.

The preferred antenna, and I've been saying this for thirty years of broadcasting so a long time before digital, is an all-band directional antenna of appropriate size, mounted outside, at least 30 feet above the ground and not within 30 feet of anything in any horizontal direction. The antenna should be plumbed with a single downlead to a single receiver. The next receiver should get another antenna.

Now we all know this ain't gonna happen. So we start adding maybe a splitter. Maybe a combiner with a second antenna aimed a different direction. There might be a pre-amp somewhere. All of these things will cause various forms of signal distortions. Sometimes these distortions will interfere with a receivers ability to recover the bit stream. Sometimes these various add-ons will result in a situation where a single station is affected.

Take my own installation for instance. I've not bothered to figure out why and I should but check this out. Yagi antenna mounted on the end of the house. It's about 45' above the ground. Looks right down the throat of the KCTS signal and you can, literally, see all six major towers from where the antenna sits and they line up very nicely. It's an ideal situation. I get 4, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16 & 22. Uhhh, Tim.... You're missing 11. Yup. Essentially nowhere to be found. Standard yagi antenna. But it's correctly installed right down to the grounding blocks. Single four port stripline splitter. Quad-sheild RG6 coax. The whole bit. But still, KSTW, when it is there at all, clocks in with about a 17 on my little Radio Shack converter. Everyone else is mid 80's or better with the exception of 12 where I see mid 60's most of the time.

I guess, where I am going with all of this, is that I think a majority of all of these problems we are seeing could be solved with a properly installed outside antenna. On the other hand, I've also been saying for a couple of years now that we'll lose some viewers and we'll gain some that we didn't have before.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to your responses and feedback.

I started on my quest for HDTV OTA reception about 2 years ago when I realized almost by accident that I could receive digital signals on my new Vizio TV. As time progressed and my research continued (forums like this have been a great help) I moved from an old VHF/UHF combo antenna that a friend gave me to a couple of ganged CM4228s on a 30' mast. I have been aware that digital 9, 11, and 13 were going to change frequency after the transition and was prepared to make changes if my setup did work. I tested my setup a few times when 9 and 11 did their tests and was cautiously optimistic that it would work but when the day came it did not.

Luckily I was able to purchase a Winegard YA-1713 from solidsignal.com before they ran out and after installing it in a sweet spot on the mast am now receiving 9, 11 and 13 perfectly.

I understand how frustrating it is to think you're all set and then find out that you're not but it's just another glitch to be resolved. I realize that not everyone can fix their problem as easily as I did but if you can find a solution independently or in conjunction with statiion personnel it will liekly be a lasting solution.

There seems to be a lot of anger directed at the FCC and the stations, esp. those that changed frequencies, but it would seem to me to be more useful to work on finding solutions rather than expressing anger.

The rewards of OTA digital tv justify the effort and frustrations. I am constantly amazed at the quality of the picture that I receive. I am grateful for forums like this that encourage dialog between interested parties. KCTS, has been responisive to my concerns about reception problems and I don't what they did but the issues I was experiencing months ago have all but disappeared. So thanks to Tim and others at the stations for listening and responding.

To those experiencing problems continue experimenting and if past experience is any guide we'll all try to help.

It sounds like I may be in the minority, but my reception actually improved after the transition using only a UHF Antennas Direct DB4 "bowtie style". I previously needed a separate DB2 antenna w/jointenna aimed toward Gold Mtn to get KCPQ. Since the transition I was able to unhook that antenna, and still get Ch 13 around 88%. I didn't notice a change in 9 or 11 (about 90%).

I'm in south Everett, and with my direcTV AM21 tuner I've lost PBS and KCPQ, unfortunately. The AM21 doesn't really scan - I believe it downloads its channels from a database direcTV keeps, so it is possible they haven't updated the DB? I don't know.

as for CW in HD on direcTV - about a month ago KSTW (CW) was available to me in HD on direcTV, along with KONG HD and KCTS HD. You sure you still don't have it?


I still get KCTS OTA on both my HR20 and my AM21, so the Tribune database is fine (I can't receive KCPQ here--hills in the way--so can't comment on that (the translator will definitely help).

KCTS, KONG and KSTW have been carried in HD by Directv since May 20.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a245613567c

After spending many hours repositioning my antenna, problems with channels 4.1 & 7.1 are mostly minor. It's a different story with 5.1, sometime it drops out so bad I can't really watch it (even though the signal strength meter reads 76%). Surprisingly, ch 5.1 is good tonight.

If I'm not wrong, ch 5 & 16 are beamed from the same tower. I'm receiving ch 16 in excellent shape but having problems with ch 5.

Yes, I'm using a Wingard Square Shooter 2000 (amplified) VHF/UHF. Per manufacturer's spec:
UHF ch. 14-69 (0-50 miles)
VHF ch. 7-13 (0-40 miles)

Thanks

Wow, seems like you should have awesome signal strength for these channels... assuming this accurate.... But for example, for me a channel 7.1 should be about -73db 2edge which equals about 80% with my Channel Master converter. (In the Puyallup valley, using a VHF/UHF in my attic, no amp.) You should have -26db LOS.

Just some ideas... from what I see though unless you have some big building between you and the towers.... it should work.

Makes me wonder if maybe your are 'overpowering' your set. As an experiment, maybe put a splitter in the line between the amp and the tv to 'pad' the signal a bit. Most 2 way splitters will put -3.5db per 'output'.

I'm also curious to see how a different DTV box would behave with your antenna setup.

Next I wonder if maybe there is a splice or bad connectors in your wiring up to the antenna. Long shot but it happens...

Or, maybe the amp is faulty and not fully functioning? Assume nothing.

FWIW, just some thoughts....

sidenote: Here's an interesting 'net gain' graph for that antenna. It's the M line.... and I'm assuming it's the 'non-amped' version...http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

more interesting info on that antenna
"The Square Shooter is advertised as being useful for VHF. In fact this antenna is an oddity in that it is horizontally polarized for UHF, but vertically polarized for VHF. For a TV receiving antenna, vertical polarization is usually worthless. When its response to vertical polarization is subtracted out, what is left is an antenna far worse than rabbit ears for both VHF-high and VHF-low. If you tilt this antenna slightly to the right or left you might see reception of a very strong VHF station." http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/SquareShooter.html

thegeeknme wrote:

... "I'm also curious to see how a different DTV box would behave with your antenna setup. ..."
----------------------------------------------------
I am also on the AVS "How to build your own HDTV antenna" forum and those guys say the Channel Master CM-7000 Converter box is heads-and shoulders better than ANY other box: some postings include text similar to this: "I wish the digital tuner inside my set was half as good".

I gotta get me one of those puppies...:D
Jim

finlay648 wrote: (quotes)

... "There seems to be a lot of anger directed at the FCC and the stations, esp. those that changed frequencies, but it would seem to me to be more useful to work on finding solutions rather than expressing anger." ...

... "The rewards of OTA digital tv justify the effort and frustrations." ...

..."To those experiencing problems continue experimenting and if past experience is any guide we'll all try to help." ...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
finlay678 is right! SPOT ON! Great attitude! Keep experimenting - that's part of the fun! :)

Unless I am mistaken (about a ten days ago) the assistant CE of KCTS-9 posted here his frustration and the unlikelyhood of the FCC approving higher ERP unless Canada agrees to allow it.

Channel 9's 21.7 kw ERP signal will be hard for many of us to get (Channel 11 is currently at 12.5 kw ERP). :eek: Those are the two stations I lost: soon, I will be building a 'cut-to Channel 10 Yagi' as my attempt to re-capture both stations. It's design is now completed.

Regarding experimentation, if anyone here wants to construct their own antennas, here is a local (Nationwide) business I use for my antenna materials. http://blog.onlinemetals.com/?p=918

I'm an 'old school' believer in Yagis (because of their small wind-loading) but modern variations of Gray-Hoverman's are VERY popular, very cheap and easy to build for UHF. I'll stick with what I know - only Yagi's for VHF. (In my opinion, UHF too).

Good luck! Jim :D

Wow, seems like you should have awesome signal strength for these channels... assuming this accurate.... But for example, for me a channel 7.1 should be about -73db 2edge which equals about 80% with my Channel Master converter. (In the Puyallup valley, using a VHF/UHF in my attic, no amp.) You should have -26db LOS.

Yes, I do have receive excellent signals. According to www.tvfool.com, I've LOS on ch 4.1, 5.1, 7.1 & 16.1

Here are the signal strength readings at approx. 6:15pm (23 June 2009)
ch 4.1 (86% - excellent & steady)
ch 5.1 (varies from 65 - 82%, choppy, break-up interruptions) - It's excellent when it's steady.
ch 7.1 (92% - excellent & steady); ch 9.1 (77%); ch 11.1 (83%); ch 16.1 (88%); ch 22.1 (70%); ch 33.1 (80%); ch 42.1 (77%) and lastly
ch 44.1 (55% - good)

It's frustrating to trying to figure out the problem with ch 5.1 when 16.1 comes in at (88% and steady).


Makes me wonder if maybe your are 'overpowering' your set. As an experiment, maybe put a splitter in the line between the amp and the tv to 'pad' the signal a bit. Most 2 way splitters will put -3.5db per 'output'.


I will try out your suggestion. If the signal is too overpowering (i.e. over amplified), I should easily fix it by installing an attenuator.

Next I wonder if maybe there is a splice or bad connectors in your wiring up to the antenna. Long shot but it happens...

Or, maybe the amp is faulty and not fully functioning? Assume nothing.

I heard you, but wouldn't all other channels be affected?
I also suspect may be it's the wind, but then all other channels are O.K. So, I'm back to "square-one".

FWIW, just some thoughts....

sidenote: Here's an interesting 'net gain' graph for that antenna. It's the M line.... and I'm assuming it's the 'non-amped' version...http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

more interesting info on that antenna
"The Square Shooter is advertised as being useful for VHF. In fact this antenna is an oddity in that it is horizontally polarized for UHF, but vertically polarized for VHF. For a TV receiving antenna, vertical polarization is usually worthless. When its response to vertical polarization is subtracted out, what is left is an antenna far worse than rabbit ears for both VHF-high and VHF-low. If you tilt this antenna slightly to the right or left you might see reception of a very strong VHF station." http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/SquareShooter.html

Except for ch 44.1, I didn't have any issues with the above channels prior to June 12th. After 6/12, I lost ch 9 due to the switch to VHF but strangely, I received ch 11 & 13 (now on VHF) without any difficulties. I though "relocate & elevate" my SS-2000 antenna would be the best solution to resolve issue with ch 9. I tried out many combination of angles of rotation (incremental left or right turns) and tilting forward and backward (small increments) to come up with my current set up. It took many trials; I was on the roof doing the adjustments and recorded each setting while my son noted the signal strength. --- "Praise the Lord for cell phone."

I selected the current orientation as a compromise between UHF and VHF channels. My goal was to be able to pick up every channels (signals to my location between 180 - 210 deg) at 70% minimum (signal strength). Except for 44.1 & subs, I think I have achieved what I intended.

Up until now, ch 5.1 is my only challenge.

Thanks for your kind suggestions.

Tim - loved your write-up. The whining can get to you if you let it. Phrases like "duh" and "no s**t" come to mind when reading some of this stuff. But I actually do feel sorry for the average Joe and Jill out there. The average AVS member knows quite a bit more than they do and still have major problems. It is quite surprising that few people outside of AVS knew that 9,11,13 were going back to VHF and that might require a different antenna. The information campaign by the TV stations really missed the boat on several key items. Now think about Grandpa and Grandma staring at snow - pretty sad in this age of electronics (and the Information Age).

thegeeknme wrote:

... "I'm also curious to see how a different DTV box would behave with your antenna setup. ..."
----------------------------------------------------
I am also on the AVS "How to build your own HDTV antenna" forum and those guys say the Channel Master CM-7000 Converter box is heads-and shoulders better than ANY other box: some postings include text similar to this: "I wish the digital tuner inside my set was half as good".

I gotta get me one of those puppies...:D
Jim

LoL, ya it's a great box! I'm really happy with it and the S-Video out. I also have a Zenith DTT901 and it is REALLY close to being just as sensitive. I like the Zenith on-screen better so that generally what I recommend to my family, less they really want best picture w/ s-video. Then it's the CM-7000.

Peace.

Here's an interesting thing I found. Last week, I couldn't get channels 7.1 or 7.2 for crap! The signal was apparently good, but it was just black with a ticking/tapping noise. Just today, I noticed that I now get channels 7.1 & 7.2 without issues. I'm reading off the Bremerton antenna. I'm about 2 miles from it.

If there's anybody wondering about the odd clarity of 7.1 and 7.2, they might have fixed their antenna! I never had it before today! I would recommend rescanning. I did, and nothing new came in. Just on a basic indoor antenna, I get 7, 13 & 20.

KVOS is back on-air. Their web site says "We are now back on the Air much sooner than expected." Any word on what happened?

allen98311 wrote:

KVOS is back on-air. Their web site says "We are now back on the Air much sooner than expected." Any word on what happened?
---------------------------------------------------------
Allen,
No message yet from Stephen (the CE) but if/when I get one, I'll post it here. In my (personal, off AVS) message to him I asked "did you blow-up?" LOL!!! :eek: I am curious too.
Jim

Hi, This is my first post and need some of your wisdom.

Which Rooftop antenna do I start with? (I accept that there will be some tweaking and possibly adding a second antenna later.) Downlead will be split 4 ways.


HD7015 Recommended by SolidSignal (Large ant. 87.75" boom, 31 elements, Ch 2-69)

OR

HD7000R (Small ant. 32.75" boom, 10 elements, Ch 2-69)



Location: On East side of hill at the West side of University Village shopping ctr in Seattle.



Existing antique & broken VHF only roof antenna receiving;

9.x, 11.x, 13.x (Good no breakups)
5.x (Black screen & no sound)
7.x (Weak, yet watchable, breakup every 20 - 30 min or so.)
16.x, 22.x, 33.x, 42.x, 51.x (Unwatchable, breakups every 20 - 60 seconds)


From rooftop antenna location;

233 Magnetic KCPQ
205 Magnetic KOMO, KING, KONG, KIRO
164 Magnetic KCTS, KTSW

I think I need the greater beam-width of the HD7000R, right? Or, would the greater gain of the HD7015 eliminate multi-path issues. Yet, being only ~3 miles away from KOMO, KING, KIRO that greater gain could result in overloading.


Plus, the HD7000R polar pattern seems to show some reception on it's back side. I'm currently receiving KWPX 33.x, and KUNS 51.x on the back of the VHF antenna.


Thanks,


PS: When picture freezes or goes to black, the Tivax converter box, "signal" display flips back and forth between 0 "weak" and low "good" a few times before remaining in the "good" zone when reception resumes.

Also, I remember now, that in the 70s - 80s there was ghosting on the TV picture whenever a plane would fly over. I'm under an approach to Sea-Tac.

Huh, ...I've almost talked myself into the HD7015 to reduce multi-path. I guess a attenuator could be used if the higher gain overloads the Tivax.

A very typical theme across many of the AVS OTA forums, is the frustration of receiving (or not) reliable VHF DTV broadcasts. In approximately 60% of the complaints, the posts involve attic mounted VHF/UHF antennas that worked for UHF, but not for VHF.

One common thread with a few attic mounted combo antennas are problems when the viewer turns on their computer, energy efficient florescent lighting, or some corded electrical appliances.

VHF channels are susceptible to what is known as Impulse Noise. When you were younger, you may remember seeing Impulse Noise as sparkles in your analog picture when a car with bad spark plug wiring drove by. Modern electronic devices such as computers and monitors with switching power supplies, create a lot of impulse noise that either radiates from the computer box(CPU), or to the neutral wire of the computer AC cord. The wiring to all your outlets and lights in the home then act as an antenna for impulse noise..a high gain TV antenna is mounted in the attic close to wiring with Impulse Noise surrounding the TV antenna.. you get the idea.

Even though the DTV signal from the TV station is perfectly acceptable with the antenna mounted outdoors, inside the attic where VHF signals are attenuated anyway, the DTV signal reception is overrun by closely surrounding the DTV antenna with a noise source.

This situation only punctuates further the need to install your antenna(s) outdoors, where it can capture the desired DTV VHF signals and remain above the noise floor.

but the analog KBTC 28 nightlight is still on. Speaking of which, the "Receiving DTV" segment is actually very good.

Hi, This is my first post and need some of your wisdom.
...
Huh, ...I've almost talked myself into the HD7015 to reduce multi-path. I guess a attenuator could be used if the higher gain overloads the Tivax.

Go with the smaller antenna. You're really close to all of the transmitters, except for KCPQ. I don't think multipath is going to be a significant problem. Also, those antennas you mentioned are rated for the really low VHF frequencies (down to channel 2) which no one uses. The lowest channel in this area is channel 9, but you're so close, you could pick up that with a paper clip (literally). Look for an antenna rated for channels 7 to 69.

Something to consider are separate VHF and UHF antennas. Get a small UHF antenna, like a db2 or a CM-4220MHD, and point it in between the Seattle transmitters. It should work okay, airplanes or no.

In terms of VHF, the most problematic VHF channel for you is going to be KCPQ (in the long run, after channel 11 bumps up its transmission power in a month or so). Get a slightly larger VHF antenna and point it mostly at KCPQ. There's discussion, above, about how the CM bowties are actually pretty good for VHF, too (particularly above channel 7), so you might be able to use two CM bowties, one pointed between the Seattle towers and the other off at KCPQ. Combine the "UHF" and "VHF" antennas at a VHF/UHF combiner and there you have it.

Don't worry that your "VHF" antenna is pointed off at KCPQ. You'll probably still be able to pull in the Seattle VHF stations (9 and 11), even though the VHF antenna isn't pointed at them.

Hi, This is my first post and need some of your wisdom.

Which Rooftop antenna do I start with? (I accept that there will be some tweaking and possibly adding a second antenna later.) Downlead will be split 4 ways.



233 Magnetic KCPQ
205 Magnetic KOMO, KING, KONG, KIRO
164 Magnetic KCTS, KTSW



I would buy a DB2 antenna for UHF and a Pico Macom UVSJ signal combiner and use your VHF for the time being. You might not need a lot of gain and you could see what kind of problems you have.
You only need a UHF/VHFcombo antenna that covers ch9-51 (Like a Winegard HD7694P) if you go that way.
Go to TVFOOL and put in your address and see what problems you might have.

after channel 11 bumps up its transmission power in a month or so

Any more info about this available?

Any more info about this available?

Rabbit Ears says: License to cover filed-maximized app pending for 100KW

Rabbit Ears says: License to cover filed-maximized app pending for 100KW

Let me clarify this:

The license to cover is for the 12.5 kW facility.

The 100 kW facility is awaiting Canadian coordination.

- Trip

Just came from Gold Mountain, and noticed that KCPQ has a new broadcasting tower! Anybody know about this one?

FYI ... it's ugly! Different ... but, ugly!

Just came from Gold Mountain, and noticed that KCPQ has a new broadcasting tower! Anybody know about this one?

FYI ... it's ugly! Different ... but, ugly!

Pictures?

Just came from Gold Mountain, and noticed that KCPQ has a new broadcasting tower! Anybody know about this one?

FYI ... it's ugly! Different ... but, ugly!

Just because there's a new tower there doesn't mean either that it's theirs or that it's for broadcast if it is theirs. I don't know that it is or it isn't but keep that in mind.

according to the google earth maps kbtw tbn has a new tower for digital operation...

Kelly From KOMO wrote:


... "VHF channels are susceptible to what is known as Impulse Noise. When you were younger, you may remember seeing Impulse Noise as sparkles in your analog picture when a car with bad spark plug wiring drove by." ...
----------------------------------------------------------

Kelly,
Back in the early 70's I put solid-wire sparkplug wires on my sportscar (a slalom racer and a road-racer) and the car was street legal. I cannot tell you how many times I frustrated the "kids in their Chevy's" next to me at stoplights who were blasting KJR ... buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

That's the best example of RF impulse noise I personally created, although Mom's Procter-Silex blender completely wiped out my shortwave reception whenever she used it. (wow-that was a LONG time ago ... ! )

QUESTION for you: are you suggesting to us; impulse noise interference sources are (potentially) a major obsticle in receiving digital TV signals? If so, it seems to me there are situations where this cannot be conquered: but in other situations a highly directional antenna with lots of gain (attenuated if necessary) might be the answer in those particular situations. (S/N ratios)
Jim :)

PS It just dawned on me a Class A1 transmitter dedicated solely to Morse Code is by definition a digital transmitting station. No wonder impulse noises can confuse our receivers! Signal on - or signal off. (DUH! spanking myself, now). LOL!

Kelly From KOMO wrote:


... "VHF channels are susceptible to what is known as Impulse Noise. When you were younger, you may remember seeing Impulse Noise as sparkles in your analog picture when a car with bad spark plug wiring drove by." ...
----------------------------------------------------------

Kelly,
Back in the early 70's I put solid-wire sparkplug wires on my sportscar (a slalom racer and a road-racer) and the car was street legal. I cannot tell you how many times I frustrated the "kids in their Chevy's" next to me at stoplights who were blasting KJR ... buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

That's the best example of RF impulse noise I personally created, although Mom's Procter-Silex blender completely wiped out my shortwave reception whenever she used it. (wow-that was a LONG time ago ... ! )

QUESTION for you: are you suggesting to us; impulse noise interference sources are (potentially) a major obsticle in receiving digital TV signals? If so, it seems to me there are situations where this cannot be conquered: but in other situations a highly directional antenna with lots of gain (attenuated if necessary) might be the answer in those particular situations. (S/N ratios)
Jim :)

PS It just dawned on me a Class A1 transmitter dedicated solely to Morse Code is by definition a digital transmitting station. No wonder impulse noises can confuse our receivers! Signal on - or signal off. (DUH! spanking myself, now). LOL!

Jim
Generally, noise problems from AC wiring, neon signs, cars, blenders, etc (wifes hair dryer and my hot air popcorn popper are really bad) only affected analog TV channels from 2-6. Very rare I saw it on VHF hi band. Digital world, so far, seems to ignore all of that. We still have the same two culprits mentioned above, and they don't bother my satellite, over air HD or cable through the cable box. My old analog Sony still gets sparkles on the low VHF analog from Comcast (no box) when she fires off the hairdryer. I have a broken RF fitting on the back and it sneaks in there. Doesn't bother the hi band.
Digital over air, from what I've seen in the ten years its been here, seems to ignore noise. It IS sensitive to other things like multipath, and very very weak signals where you get below the decoders thresholds. Then you're getting into the inherent noise that's in the chips, themselves, and they can't pick out the ones and zeros from the that noise.
As long as your above the tuners sensitivity level, and the decoders can understand it, they're happy.
The similar idea to S/N ratios now are what are the bit error rates coming out of the decoder/tuner. That's what the satellites are looking at as well. Both my meters show that, and it's key to their locking on. Above minimum signal levels, though, that usually settles down and works fine. So, yes gain is important, but it only relates to getting above the noise floor of the tuner/decoders. Beyond that level, I've been in very noisy environs that would've made analog unwatchable, yet digital seems to ignore it all.

And your Morse code key, no matter how fast you are, does have noise and "bounce" if you put a scope on it. What makes it workable is how well the modulators and keying circuits are made and tuned that help eliminate that and make it sound like a perfect digital switch at the other end. And then we get into how well our analog ears respond to that Morse sound, which they don't in an on/off fashion, but more like watching that scope on the key.

But that gets in to another whole area, like selective listening, for us old married guys.......
Dan

Kelly From KOMO wrote:


... "VHF channels are susceptible to what is known as Impulse Noise. When you were younger, you may remember seeing Impulse Noise as sparkles in your analog picture when a car with bad spark plug wiring drove by." ...
----------------------------------------------------------

Kelly,
Back in the early 70's I put solid-wire sparkplug wires on my sportscar (a slalom racer and a road-racer) and the car was street legal. I cannot tell you how many times I frustrated the "kids in their Chevy's" next to me at stoplights who were blasting KJR ... buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

That's the best example of RF impulse noise I personally created, although Mom's Procter-Silex blender completely wiped out my shortwave reception whenever she used it. (wow-that was a LONG time ago ... ! )

QUESTION for you: are you suggesting to us; impulse noise interference sources are (potentially) a major obsticle in receiving digital TV signals? If so, it seems to me there are situations where this cannot be conquered: but in other situations a highly directional antenna with lots of gain (attenuated if necessary) might be the answer in those particular situations. (S/N ratios)
Jim :)



Hi Jim,

In theroy, impulse noise can occur across the whole VHF band. Dan's correct from a practical matter, the problem is far worse for the lower-VHF channels.

There was a post in the Washington DC HD OTA board that had several of us scratching our heads. One of the poster's was having loss or breakup of picture on DTV VHF channel 9 when he turned on his computer anywhere in the house. His antenna was in the attic, and the noise appeared to be carried through the house wiring which of course surrounded or was in very close proximity to his antenna. Come to find out, the noisy culprit turned out to be a CPU cooling fan controlled by a motor speed control. Once he changed speeds or shut off the fan, problem solved.

That got me thinking.. If average consumer electronic devices caused an overall increase in the noise floor, (via impulse noise) what effect did that have on VHF DTV reception in general, even with the higher VHF channels? I tried a simple little experiment by taking my Samsung 22" bedroom DTV combined with a Silver Sensor antenna, then held various common consumer devices near the antenna while switching between channel 9 and 11. The new florescent replacement bulb in a lamp seemed to be the most disruptive to channel 9, while my one of my 17" Viewsonic computer monitors seemed to really affect channel 11. The light bulb was held about four feet from the antenna before clobbering channel 9, where the computer monitor was about two feet away for channel 11. The combination of both on at the same time three feet way from the antenna seemed to really affect both stations rather severely. As I slowly moved the lightbulb or the monitor closer to the antenna, I could watch the "signal strength" indicator swing up and down as the bit errors increased and decreased.

The fact remains that if the overall noise floor as it appears to the antenna, is equal to or higher than the field strength of the DTV station, then reception becomes an issue. My test proved the original point, that mounting the antenna outside away from noise sources and attenuation from a building structure can make all the difference in receiving VHF DTV signals.

Hi Jim,
My test proved the original point, that mounting the antenna outside away from noise sources and attenuation from a building structure can make all the difference in receiving VHF DTV signals.

Amen Brother Kelly!!!

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

Hi Jim,

... "Come to find out, the noisy culprit turned out to be a CPU cooling fan controlled by a motor speed control. Once he changed speeds or shut off the fan, problem solved."

That got me thinking.. If average consumer electronic devices caused an overall increase in the noise floor, (via impulse noise) what effect did that have on VHF DTV reception in general, even with the higher VHF channels? I tried a simple little experiment by taking my Samsung 22" bedroom DTV combined with a Silver Sensor antenna, then held various common consumer devices near the antenna while switching between channel 9 and 11. The new florescent replacement bulb in a lamp seemed to be the most disruptive to channel 9, while my one of my 17" Viewsonic computer monitors seemed to really affect channel 11. The light bulb was held about four feet from the antenna before clobbering channel 9, where the computer monitor was about two feet away for channel 11. The combination of both on at the same time three feet way from the antenna seemed to really affect both stations rather severely. As I slowly moved the lightbulb or the monitor closer to the antenna, I could watch the "signal strength" indicator swing up and down as the bit errors increased and decreased.
-----------------------------------------------------------
WOW! I'm not alone, Kelly!
Three years ago I had a computer built for me by a friend and although he refused to believe me, there was an incredible WHINE on the audio and on my telephone line (dial-up access) whenever the machine was turned on. First I replaced its' power supply (no change) and then I replaced the cooling fan on the CPU main chip which cost me one dollar at RE-PC. Problem resolved! Not that it was interfering with OTA DTV because I was not persuing it at the time, yet there is a common link here: pulse noise. I wish I had time to test all the potential sources around my home and garage.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dan, you wrote:
Generally, noise problems from AC wiring, neon signs, cars, blenders, etc (wifes hair dryer and my hot air popcorn popper are really bad) only affected analog TV channels from 2-6. Very rare I saw it on VHF hi band. Digital world, so far, seems to ignore all of that.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dan,
I remember watching Minnesota Fats playing Willie Masconi on (250 watt ERP ? ) Channel 13 (PROUDLY) transmitting from the Tacoma Tide Flats in the 1960's and from time to time there was motor-noise on my (parents') screen. I appreciate that those pulses seem to be less of a concern today. On another note, I 'retired rather than inhereted' Mom's blender (mentioned before). LOL!

Jim

I think it might have been KTVW ... long before it was called "The Bladen-Station".

Hi Jim,

In theroy, impulse noise can occur across the whole VHF band. Dan's correct from a practical matter, the problem is far worse for the lower-VHF channels.

There was a post in the Washington DC HD OTA board that had several of us scratching our heads. One of the poster's was having loss or breakup of picture on DTV VHF channel 9 when he turned on his computer anywhere in the house. His antenna was in the attic, and the noise appeared to be carried through the house wiring which of course surrounded or was in very close proximity to his antenna. Come to find out, the noisy culprit turned out to be a CPU cooling fan controlled by a motor speed control. Once he changed speeds or shut off the fan, problem solved.

That got me thinking.. If average consumer electronic devices caused an overall increase in the noise floor, (via impulse noise) what effect did that have on VHF DTV reception in general, even with the higher VHF channels? I tried a simple little experiment by taking my Samsung 22" bedroom DTV combined with a Silver Sensor antenna, then held various common consumer devices near the antenna while switching between channel 9 and 11. The new florescent replacement bulb in a lamp seemed to be the most disruptive to channel 9, while my one of my 17" Viewsonic computer monitors seemed to really affect channel 11. The light bulb was held about four feet from the antenna before clobbering channel 9, where the computer monitor was about two feet away for channel 11. The combination of both on at the same time three feet way from the antenna seemed to really affect both stations rather severely. As I slowly moved the lightbulb or the monitor closer to the antenna, I could watch the "signal strength" indicator swing up and down as the bit errors increased and decreased.

The fact remains that if the overall noise floor as it appears to the antenna, is equal to or higher than the field strength of the DTV station, then reception becomes an issue. My test proved the original point, that mounting the antenna outside away from noise sources and attenuation from a building structure can make all the difference in receiving VHF DTV signals.


Kelly

Agree completely.
Mounting an antenna outside is the best. I know there are people that do put them in the attic, and it works, but I've seen what the signal looks like, and it's pretty ugly as well as weak. Any noise or reflections in the attic, or if the trees or buildings around get in the way, they have no headroom. I turn down requests for those installs.

Things have gotten worse, too, with todays ultra sensitive tuners. Using an indoor antenna can seem to work pretty good. The actual level, though, is usually very weak, but once locked in, picture is always perfect. The signal to noise ratio obviously becomes far worse, too, when compared to an outdoor antenna. Any small noise would seem huge to the tuner, as you demonstrated.

A good cheap test for noise is to grab a small battery powered AM radio, and walk around the house listening to a very weak station. Light dimmers and their wiring, flourescent fixtures, motors, PC's and even some older plasma TV's, like my 8 year old Panasonic can be real trouble.

Bottom line, mount antennas out doors, away from power lines, mercury vapor lights, etc. I've noticed if you can keep your signal above -15db, even being near normally noisy things doesn't affect the digital signal. My CM7000 worked down to -26db, rock solid on ch9 and ch11 when they did their tests last fall. That's almost running on fumes. I'm sure any blenders near my antenna would have upset that. The fix for that, if it did, is just get more signal with a bigger antenna or relocate it for better level.

Altogether now, repeat Kelly's golden words, "Mount it outside, mount it outside....."

Dan

Just a note of thanks to the KCPQ folks for putting up a "translator" (or whatever it is going to be called) for KCPQ on the Ch. 22 facility. This'll simplify my antenna setup a lot, as "all" of the major stations (at least for me) will then be broadcasting from Seattle. Thanks!
Just a note here...KCPQ has NOT made any final decisions as to whether or not we will put in a digital translator in Seattle on Capitol Hill, using UHF 22. That is just one of several options that we are looking at to improve reception of Q13 programming in Seattle proper. Remember, just because you may see an FCC filing, it doesn't mean we'll actually do it...We're just exploring alternatives.

Cheers!
JRZ

DanKurts wrote:

... "A good cheap test for noise is to grab a small battery powered AM radio, and walk around the house listening to a very weak station. Light dimmers and their wiring, flourescent fixtures, motors, PC's and even some older plasma TV's, like my 8 year old Panasonic can be real trouble.

Bottom line, mount antennas out doors, away from power lines, mercury vapor lights, etc. I've noticed if you can keep your signal above -15db, even being near normally noisy things doesn't affect the digital signal. My CM7000 worked down to -26db, rock solid on ch9 and ch11 when they did their tests last fall. That's almost running on fumes. I'm sure any blenders near my antenna would have upset that. The fix for that, if it did, is just get more signal with a bigger antenna or relocate it for better level.

Altogether now, repeat Kelly's golden words, "Mount it outside, mount it outside....."

Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dan,
Bingo! I've done that using transistor radios and lamp dimmers were (are) especially bad in my home. My guess is they use a half-wave rectifier and are prone to generate 120hz hash. A real surprise was my home circuit breaker box: when a kitchen circuit was really loaded, like running a toaster or a coffee pot and a microwave oven at the same time, I could hear a slight hum coming from the associated breaker. Sure enough, it was tossing out RF pulse noise as well.

On a side note, I have enjoyed watching and listening to electrical storms all my life using the same transistor radio tuned between AM stations. Now that's 'live' audio-video! ;)
Jim

Just a note here...KCPQ has NOT made any final decisions as to whether or not we will put in a digital translator in Seattle on Capitol Hill, using UHF 22. That is just one of several options that we are looking at to improve reception of Q13 programming in Seattle proper. Remember, just because you may see an FCC filing, it doesn't mean we'll actually do it...We're just exploring alternatives.

Cheers!
JRZ

I hope you go with the Seattle 22 option. Even though I'm in Kitsap County, I'm in the shadows and can't get the Gold Mt. transmition. I would think having transmition from two different locations would help those in shadows pick up one or the other. Also the Capitol Hill location makes sense in pointing my antenna (same direction as the other major channels).

I hope you go with the Seattle 22 option. Even though I'm in Kitsap County, I'm in the shadows and can't get the Gold Mt. transmition. I would think having transmition from two different locations would help those in shadows pick up one or the other. Also the Capitol Hill location makes sense in pointing my antenna (same direction as the other major channels).

I have the same issues and it would really help.

KCPQ-ACE wrote:
Just a note here...KCPQ has NOT made any final decisions as to whether or not we will put in a digital translator in Seattle on Capitol Hill, using UHF 22. That is just one of several options that we are looking at to improve reception of Q13 programming in Seattle proper. Remember, just because you may see an FCC filing, it doesn't mean we'll actually do it...We're just exploring alternatives.

Cheers!
JRZ
--------------------------------------------------------------
JRZ, et al:

It is very encouraging KCPQ is looking at a variety of options and I hope other stations are as well. I'm responding in support of s73v3 and rdn per their messages immediately above ... plus some of my own thoughts.

I'm shadowed from "4,5,7,9,11, 13, 16 and 22" because I live way down the West side of QA Hill and thru exterordinary measures I have finally captured all of the UHF channels (VHF 9 and 11) are soon to follow - hopefully).

Currently I have a reasonable signal from your 30kw Gold Mountain transmitter and on the same Channel Master 4228 I receive KIRO-7 (26) from their Bremerton/Silverdale translator -- in fact, I received it before they bumped up their ERP. (it used to be at 40 watts). Receiving their main transmitter has been a challenge, but I have accomplished that by building a specific 'cut-to channel' Yagi antenna: I can also receive their low power Vashon translator (47) using a Yagi I built specifically for channel 5 (48).

It certainly seems to me low power translators are the best answer for this difficult hilly region. So, (example) if the KIRO Bremerton tower, the KTBW (20) tower or your Gold Mountain tower had translators for "4,5,7,9,11,16 and 22" and the QA and/or Capitol Hill towers carried "13, 20 and perhaps 12 (35 from Bellingham)" the long-term cost would be far less than the proposal of 4,5,7 and 16 burning a million watts each, around the clock ...

... hmmm ... I wonder if any one of "local" channels "4,5,7,9,11,13,16,20,22,etc" would be interested in swapping a translator location with 12/35 Bellingham) ... That seems to me to be a mutually advantageous business arrangement.

If such a plan was done, there are additional advantages for everyone in the Northwest: if there was a "regional catastrophy" natural or man-made, this cooperative arrangement could keep more than a few stations 'on-air' ... unlike KVI-570 AM today, which is off the air do to an overnight power transformer fire at Fisher Plaza.

OK, if a studio goes down, that's it --- but in a crisis, if functional secondary translators are available, especially if they are on different power grids and there are provisions to plug in Network feed or what used to be called 'Civil Defense' or The Emergency Broadcast System (renamed the Emergency Action Notification System - or somesuch) I can see this as the right thing to do.

OK, since I don't have a soapbox I'll get off my catbox for now ... ;)
Jim

Is anyone receiving KOMO OTA this evening? Directv has a slide on the HD channel and the SD channel is broadcasting content from KATU (2) in Portland.

The KOMO web site said there had been an electrical fire in the building but that they were on the air.

I can receive the KOMO-DT off-air channel, but it seems weaker than normal. They're broadcasting an SD (480i) feed of KATU Portland on both 4-1 and 4-2, so no "This TV".

The electrical fire hit them after 11pm last night and could keep them messed up until tomorrow. It also knocked out my Verizon FIOS internet service for several hours this morning. According to KOMO's news report, Fisher Plaza is also a major internet networking hub.

That explains why Directv is showing KATU on the SD channel. A little while ago they replaced the slide with the West Coast ABC national HD feed (KABC L.A.).

Possibly the repairs to the vault required further shutdown in the building.

That explains why Directv is showing KATU on the SD channel. A little while ago they replaced the slide with the West Coast ABC national HD feed (KABC L.A.).

Possibly the repairs to the vault required further shutdown in the building.

From what I hear the main building feeders failed, caught fire, then the fire sprinklers drowned the generators. The fire was extinguished, but it drowned the four big 1.6MW generators.

I did a rescan last night and it seems to have gotten rid of the second KOMO 4-2 subchannel (THIS-TV). It made my Pal DVR "clock wander" for the first time. So it This-TV gone or is this because of the fire?

As of right (10AM 7/4/09) now both 4.1 and 4.2 are back.

Whatever happened really confused my HDHomeRun and Media Center. I had a recording scheduled on 4.1 during prime time. Media Center behaved as if it recorded 30 minutes but the result was only about 500K on disk, with no thumbnail in the recorded program list.

The HDHR showed 100% signal/symbol strength/quality but there was just a black screen when trying to actually watch the channel in Media Center. I guess that makes sense, since there's reason the transmitter would be down... it just had nothing feeding into it.

Does anyone have documentation on a Regal SMS-8? I don't have the power supply, and it suggests 24 volts DC. Thanks.

I did a rescan last night and it seems to have gotten rid of the second KOMO 4-2 subchannel (THIS-TV). It made my Pal DVR "clock wander" for the first time. So it This-TV gone or is this because of the fire?

The KOMO 4-2 subchannel disappeared yesterday on my box too without doing any rescan. Its probably due to the fire. I'm going to wait and see if 4-2 self corrects.

4-2 self corrected OK

Kelly From KOMO wrote:

From what I hear the main building feeders failed, caught fire, then the fire sprinklers drowned the generators. The fire was extinguished, but it drowned the four big 1.6MW generators.
-----------------------------------------
I heard on the radio this morning Star 101.5 FM was able to return to the air pretty quickly. They used a 14 pot mixer board and an I-Pod. That's what I call imagineering! :D They also said there are now two semi-truck sized portable generators outside the studio providing power to run the works.
Jim

I did a rescan last night and it seems to have gotten rid of the second KOMO 4-2 subchannel (THIS-TV). It made my Pal DVR "clock wander" for the first time. So it This-TV gone or is this because of the fire?

My DTVPal DVR also lost track of time, it thought it was 1:00am at 9:00am. I thought it was because I had my antenna aimed to KVOS overnight, and I had no / little signal from KIRO. I had to reset it before it would get and keep the correct time. It also deleted all my timers.

I looked at the REC Broadcast Query page today and noticed KIRO 39 (7x) has filed with the FCC to raise their antenna to the top of their main tower on QA Hill. It will change from 271 meters to 297.9 meters above average sea level ... that's about 90 feet. Apparently they will be dropping their ERP from 1 megawatt to 610 kw.

I'm not sure what the difference between "Special Temporary Authority" and "Granted" is, but I suspect "granted" is issued after construction is completed, only if the change is approved. Can anyone verify that?

I'll look around and see if I can find the actual permit, to find its expiration date. Unfortunately I can't recall how I found the KOMO CP!
Jim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BDSTA-20090630AAN Spec Temp Auth ACCPT 07/01/2009

http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=66781&jaws=0

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1319640

Jim, you probably saw that at the FCC database here ....
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=KIRO&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

litzdog911 wrote:
Jim, you probably saw that at the FCC database here ....
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=KIRO&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9
-----------------------------------------------------------
Litzdog911,
Your link does not connect to the (FCC) KIRO construstion permit, which I was looking for. Odds are its' just like KOMO and it's also good for 36 months.
Jim

I'm not sure what the difference between "Special Temporary Authority" and "Granted" is, but I suspect "granted" is issued after construction is completed, only if the change is approved. Can anyone verify that?


'Special Temporay Authority' is something given to a broadcaster when some situation requires them to operate at substantial variance from either a license or a CP. For example: When KCTS blew the terminated circulator in an intermediate stage of one of our analog transmitters two years ago the rig wouldn't run. Best I could manage was about 60% with the remaining rig. We 'Applied' for an 'STA' to operate at half power which was then 'Granted.'

So what you'll usually see on these sites, >IF< all the information is there, is an 'Applied' for something, say a license to cover a CP, that is then 'Granted.'

Make sense?

I looked at the REC Broadcast Query page today and noticed KIRO 39 (7x) has filed with the FCC to raise their antenna to the top of their main tower on QA Hill. It will change from 271 meters to 297.9 meters above average sea level ... that's about 90 feet. Apparently they will be dropping their ERP from 1 megawatt to 610 kw.

I'm not sure what the difference between "Special Temporary Authority" and "Granted" is, but I suspect "granted" is issued after construction is completed, only if the change is approved. Can anyone verify that?

I'll look around and see if I can find the actual permit, to find its expiration date. Unfortunately I can't recall how I found the KOMO CP!
Jim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BDSTA-20090630AAN Spec Temp Auth ACCPT 07/01/2009

http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=66781&jaws=0

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1319640

Are you referring to this one?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101319640&formid=911&fac_num=66781

It has been granted today so KIRO should be able to start.

Edit: The old antenna will be removed tomorrow and KIRO will be back at full digital power on Sunday.
http://www.kirotv.com/station/19968434/detail.html

Kiro is showing a ticker on the channel saying they are raising the digital antenna July 5 to the 11th and will be operating ota at 50% power

Info on their website says work is beginning on Tuesday and will continue to Saturday. Says they'll be running about 50% power during the work. I'll be working in Seattle for a couple days this week and might head up to the Hill and check it out.

Copy this link since I don't have over 3 posts :p kirotv.com/news/19968434/detail.html

Just a note here...KCPQ has NOT made any final decisions as to whether or not we will put in a digital translator in Seattle on Capitol Hill, using UHF 22. That is just one of several options that we are looking at to improve reception of Q13 programming in Seattle proper. Remember, just because you may see an FCC filing, it doesn't mean we'll actually do it...We're just exploring alternatives.

Cheers!
JRZ

Just hope that is an alternative that will be exercised. We have received the old channel 13/18 prior to the move with my "old" attic mounted CM4228 most of the time over the last 4+ years. The solution last year was to install a CM4221HD on the roof, then ch13/18 was 100% reception with signal strength ~85% on my receiver. After the transition/move and frequency shift we do not get ch13/13 at all. 22 and the other seattle stations are very strong....we even get KVOS most of the time....It is that hill rise between us and green mountain (south end of lk wash at the top of Lakeridge neighborhood). I would like to get 13, but now it is not an option....:(
So moving it to 22-x would be great. It does have some good content!
Thx!

skyboysea wrote:

http://www.kirotv.com/station/19968434/detail.html
-------------------------

TERRIFIC link, Skyboysea! ;)

I was less than one block north of the KIRO main tower on QA Hill at the 7-11 store around 2:15 PM today and I saw no unusual activity or changes to their tower site at all ... not even a pickup truck in their driveway.

Tomorrow morning, I'll grab a lounge chair and my digital camera and run back up there (less than a mile from me) and if there is something new to see, I'll report back with photos here.

To me, this is an incredible project rarely ever seen that I personally would not want to do, but its apparently much easier than the Channel 4 antenna will be to change out: Kelly From Komo said (here) it weighs 11,000 pounds!

What I was looking for was the actual Construction Permit for KIRO in PDF. Here's the one I (somehow) found for KOMO.
Jim ;)

What I was looking for was the actual Construction Permit for KIRO in PDF. Here's the one I (somehow) found for KOMO.
Jim ;)

I think you'll have to wait a few days for it. It has been granted today and I have no idea how long the FCC takes to put those documents online.

KCPQ-ACE wrote:
Just a note here...KCPQ has NOT made any final decisions as to whether or not we will put in a digital translator in Seattle on Capitol Hill, using UHF 22. That is just one of several options that we are looking at to improve reception of Q13 programming in Seattle proper. Remember, just because you may see an FCC filing, it doesn't mean we'll actually do it...We're just exploring alternatives.

Cheers!
JRZ
--------------------------------------------------------------
JRZ, et al:

It is very encouraging KCPQ is looking at a variety of options and I hope other stations are as well. I'm responding in support of s73v3 and rdn per their messages immediately above ... plus some of my own thoughts.

I'm shadowed from "4,5,7,9,11, 13, 16 and 22" because I live way down the West side of QA Hill and thru exterordinary measures I have finally captured all of the UHF channels (VHF 9 and 11) are soon to follow - hopefully).

Currently I have a reasonable signal from your 30kw Gold Mountain transmitter and on the same Channel Master 4228 I receive KIRO-7 (26) from their Bremerton/Silverdale translator -- in fact, I received it before they bumped up their ERP. (it used to be at 40 watts). Receiving their main transmitter has been a challenge, but I have accomplished that by building a specific 'cut-to channel' Yagi antenna: I can also receive their low power Vashon translator (47) using a Yagi I built specifically for channel 5 (48).

It certainly seems to me low power translators are the best answer for this difficult hilly region. So, (example) if the KIRO Bremerton tower, the KTBW (20) tower or your Gold Mountain tower had translators for "4,5,7,9,11,16 and 22" and the QA and/or Capitol Hill towers carried "13, 20 and perhaps 12 (35 from Bellingham)" the long-term cost would be far less than the proposal of 4,5,7 and 16 burning a million watts each, around the clock ...

... hmmm ... I wonder if any one of "local" channels "4,5,7,9,11,13,16,20,22,etc" would be interested in swapping a translator location with 12/35 Bellingham) ... That seems to me to be a mutually advantageous business arrangement.

If such a plan was done, there are additional advantages for everyone in the Northwest: if there was a "regional catastrophy" natural or man-made, this cooperative arrangement could keep more than a few stations 'on-air' ... unlike KVI-570 AM today, which is off the air do to an overnight power transformer fire at Fisher Plaza.

OK, if a studio goes down, that's it --- but in a crisis, if functional secondary translators are available, especially if they are on different power grids and there are provisions to plug in Network feed or what used to be called 'Civil Defense' or The Emergency Broadcast System (renamed the Emergency Action Notification System - or somesuch) I can see this as the right thing to do.

OK, since I don't have a soapbox I'll get off my catbox for now ... ;)
Jim

It would be wonderful if all of the stations had their towers in the same place...This would make DTV reception easier as you would have only one direction to point your antenna. Apparently, when Tribune bought KCPQ, they requested the FCC allow them to move their transmitter from it's current location in Bremerton, to Capitol Hill in Seattle. Even though we would have easily covered Tacoma (our city of license), the FCC said no. This was all before my time here, so I don't know what their reasoning was for sure, but it quashed any further attempts to do so.

When I was in Michigan, one of the stations I was DoE for had VHF channel 5 as their assigned DTV channel...This was the subject on numerous conversations about the efficacy of using low-band VHF, especially because of the interference issues...impulse noise, etc. Don't know if they ultimately stayed on that channel, moved to another channel, or just went dark...The station was in Calumet, which did not have a population sufficient to support a television station to begin with, and that station ended up being essentially a translator for the primary station in Marquette...I believe they just covered Calumet with the DTV from Marquette as oppossed to bulding out a DTV station there...At least that was whta we were planning on at the time I left...

Cheers!
JRZ

It would be wonderful if all of the stations had their towers in the same place...This would make DTV reception easier as you would have only one direction to point your antenna. Apparently, when Tribune bought KCPQ, they requested the FCC allow them to move their transmitter from it's current location in Bremerton, to Capitol Hill in Seattle. Even though we would have easily covered Tacoma (our city of license), the FCC said no. This was all before my time here, so I don't know what their reasoning was for sure, but it quashed any further attempts to do so.

When I was in Michigan, one of the stations I was DoE for had VHF channel 5 as their assigned DTV channel...This was the subject on numerous conversations about the efficacy of using low-band VHF, especially because of the interference issues...impulse noise, etc. Don't know if they ultimately stayed on that channel, moved to another channel, or just went dark...The station was in Calumet, which did not have a population sufficient to support a television station to begin with, and that station ended up being essentially a translator for the primary station in Marquette...I believe they just covered Calumet with the DTV from Marquette as oppossed to bulding out a DTV station there...At least that was whta we were planning on at the time I left...

Cheers!
JRZ

I'm getting in the 'way back' machine now.... I have drawings and pictures up here that would have put KCPQ and KCTS on a shared tower across the street from where the KCTS tower now stands. On that chunk of land where 'Trader Joes' and 'Ding Ho Cleaners' now stand. Would have been 949 feet tall. By contrast the current KCTS structure is 594 feet tall.

>IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY< the project was dropped due to channel 13 not being able to get a CP for it and partially due to some political squabbling over who would actually own it. At the time, KCPQ and KMYQ were not owned by the same company.

Wasn't that the old Pat O' Day tower? Pat was pushing this idea to FM and TV folks looking for buy-in/investors to help fund the project. As I recall the other problem was he had some pretty severe push-back from the FAA.

The proposed tower had similar curved lines to the Eiffel tower. By all estimates had he been able to pull off the project, it would have been a great site.

The station was in Calumet, which did not have a population sufficient to support a television station to begin with, and that station ended up being essentially a translator for the primary station in Marquette...I believe they just covered Calumet with the DTV from Marquette as oppossed to bulding out a DTV station there...At least that was whta we were planning on at the time I left...

Cheers!
JRZ

WBKP was assigned channel 18 for digital, applied for 11 and never built it, and is now operating digitally on channel 5 as far as I know.

Just in case you're wondering. :)

- Trip

Wasn't that the old Pat O' Day tower? Pat was pushing this idea to FM and TV folks looking for buy-in/investors to help fund the project. As I recall the other problem was he had some pretty severe push-back from the FAA.

The proposed tower had similar curved lines to the Eiffel tower. By all estimates had he been able to pull off the project, it would have been a great site.

As I recall, again from the 'way-back machine' the Pat O'Day tower was another block or two east of here. There were actually two sets of discussions. One revolving around Pat the other, after the O'Day tower failed, was KCTS & KCPQ. But heck, I could be wrong.

Also, as I recall the FAA ended up saying, essentially, "Fine. You can build your tower but no FM stations...."

KIRO 39 (7x) is following thru with their antenna change plan ASAP! WOW !! (FCC permission granted on 07-01) whereas KOMO-38 (4) has had a CP in hand for several months and has made no changes, so far. Hopefully, both stations worked out an agreement whereas KOMO is next (cuz all the equipment is already there to exchange antennas). KING-5 seems to be sleeping.

I took photos of the KIRO "7x" works today - no change on the tower but they are assembling a new 'top of the tower' in their parking lot with sledge hammers. LITERALLY. Apparently NOTHING fits and at 10 AM compared with 2:10 PM, they were STILL BASHING the tower sections with sledge hammers over and over ... WHAM, WHAM, WHAM ...

UMmmmm ... Before today, I thought assembling antenna towers was like playing with an 'erector-set' and if things do NOT fit there is a reason. My opinion is simple: fall back and regroup and find out why things do not fit! Hours and hours hammering on aluminum? Scary+

Today I saw' pros' force new tower sections together ---IF there is failure in the future I KNOW why ...

Jim

CC: the AVS "How to build a UHF antenna Forum" et al

KIRO 39 (7x) is following thru with their antenna change plan ASAP! WOW !! (FCC permission granted on 07-01) whereas KOMO-38 (4) has had a CP in hand for several months and has made no changes, so far. Hopefully, both stations worked out an agreement whereas KOMO is next (cuz all the equipment is already there to exchange antennas). KING-5 seems to be sleeping.

I took photos of the KIRO "7x" works today - no change on the tower but they are assembling a new 'top of the tower' in their parking lot with sledge hammers. LITERALLY. Apparently NOTHING fits and at 10 AM compared with 2:10 PM, they were STILL BASHING the tower sections with sledge hammers over and over ... WHAM, WHAM, WHAM ...

UMmmmm ... Before today, I thought assembling antenna towers was like playing with an 'erector-set' and if things do NOT fit there is a reason. My opinion is simple: fall back and regroup and find out why things do not fit! Hours and hours hammering on aluminum? Scary+

Today I saw' pros' force new tower sections together ---IF there is failure in the future I KNOW why ...

Jim

CC: the AVS "How to build a UHF antenna Forum" et al

KING is sleeping tonight, or at least doing some sort of work...looks like they're off the air at this hour. Same with KONG. Didn't look for a sign off earlier this evening but there's zilch on the signal meter. Took a look on Click Network cable and nothing is coming through on KING or KONG HD and there's a frozen picture of a motion blurred Conan O'Brien on KING SD. I guess we know where Click gets their locals from now don't we? ;)

KING is sleeping tonight, or at least doing some sort of work...looks like they're off the air at this hour. Same with KONG. Didn't look for a sign off earlier this evening but there's zilch on the signal meter. Took a look on Click Network cable and nothing is coming through on KING or KONG HD and there's a frozen picture of a motion blurred Conan O'Brien on KING SD. I guess we know where Click gets their locals from now don't we? ;)

They signed off at 12:32, they said that they are performing essential maintenance on its transmitter. Over-air and some cable viewers will experience a loss of signal. DirecTV also has no signal for KING.

It would be wonderful if all of the stations had their towers in the same place...This would make DTV reception easier as you would have only one direction to point your antenna.


I think the important point here was the converse: TX antenna diversity is a good thing and we should have more of it. Let's have more lower-powered transmitters with overlapping coverage areas and with different vantages. Compare the cost/coverage of operating one "huge" 1M watt TX vs. two or three "small" 50K watt TXers. In a hilly area such as we have, we might find that TX antenna diversity makes sense, not TX consolidation.

I would like KCPQ to have a Seattle *re*transmitter, but that doesn't mean I want KCPQ to get rid of Gold Mountain.

KIRO 39 (7x) is following thru with their antenna change plan ASAP! WOW !! (FCC permission granted on 07-01) whereas KOMO-38 (4) has had a CP in hand for several months and has made no changes, so far. Hopefully, both stations worked out an agreement whereas KOMO is next (cuz all the equipment is already there to exchange antennas). KING-5 seems to be sleeping.

I took photos of the KIRO "7x" works today - no change on the tower but they are assembling a new 'top of the tower' in their parking lot with sledge hammers. LITERALLY. Apparently NOTHING fits and at 10 AM compared with 2:10 PM, they were STILL BASHING the tower sections with sledge hammers over and over ... WHAM, WHAM, WHAM ...

UMmmmm ... Before today, I thought assembling antenna towers was like playing with an 'erector-set' and if things do NOT fit there is a reason. My opinion is simple: fall back and regroup and find out why things do not fit! Hours and hours hammering on aluminum? Scary+

Today I saw' pros' force new tower sections together ---IF there is failure in the future I KNOW why ...

Jim

CC: the AVS "How to build a UHF antenna Forum" et al

Post some photos, Jim!

litzdog911 wrote:
Post some photos, Jim!
-----------------------------------
Litzdog911,
I will! I only got a few shots yesterday because my batteries went flat. :mad: Today I stopped by around 3:10 PM and there was little visable change except the two troublesome new tower sections were bolted together and it appears there are two more sections to be added (more likely replacements) but their parking lot may be too small to join them until the first two sections are out of the way. I saw three workers repel down the (inside of) the tower. Not much excitement when I was there today.

I have to wonder what will happen when they try to merge the new tower sections to the old if there is a similar mis-fit like I witnessed yesterday. Its one thing for a crew to rotate sledge hammer duty on a job that is sitting on the ground, but it would be entirely different in the sky.

In my book, carpenters and roofers best friends are hammers but a mechanic does his best to leave his hammers in the bottom of his tool box.
Jim

Probably not the most recent picture, but gives a "street view" look of the tower.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=quenne+anne+hill,+seattle,+wa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=58.816238,146.162109&ie=UTF8&ll=47.632624,-122.356963&spn=0,359.995539&t=h&z=19&iwloc=B&layer=c&cbll=47.632963,-122.35697&panoid=O5rZLVBmgEJLPRR9RW8n4g&cbp=12,97.67,,0,-10.05

Here is a question for someone living close to the Queen Anne towers. Just out of curiosity, which side of the tower (North, Southwest, Southeast) is the existing Kiro digital antenna mounted on? How about Komo?

Went up there yesterday after lunch. As I arrived, three guys were attached to the winch and were being hoisted to the top. Talked to the guy doing the tag line and he didn't know too much about what was happening when. Looks like the two tower sections weren't completely attached to each other yet. It also looks like they've got a gin pole being assembled on the ground. Before I left they used the truck winch to hoist up the cable for the large winch, so maybe they were getting ready to raise the gin pole.

Both the KIRO and KOMO digital antennas are located on the east side of the tower just below the top. KIRO also has one about halfway down the tower on the east side at about the same level as what looks like a channel 7 batwing, probably both standbys. I'm not sure which is which on the KING tower, but one is on the west side and one is on the east side. I think KING is on the west side since that's the only one I get reliably from QA.

There were crews painting on the KING tower yesterday, could that be why they shut down the other night?