Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 33

Jim in Seattle

07-12-09, 07:29 PM

litzdog911 wrote: "Post some photos, Jim!"
------------------------------------
OK litzdog911 and other Ironworker fans! Here are a few photos from the past week of the new KIRO-7 tower sections being hammered together and their VHF antenna being removed. Tuesday and Thursday are attached below in this post followed by a second post showing the 'main-event' which took place Friday morning thru afternoon over about 6 1/2 hour hours.

I stopped by the antenna site whenever I had free time Tuesday-Thursday and I pretty much blew-off Friday and parked myself in the nearby 7-11 parking lot all morning thru afternoon. I talked to at least a dozen people over the week who walked by and told me they had lost their OTA 7.1-7.2 (39).

It was interesting to see the amazed looks on their faces when I told them I never lost KIRO's signal because I can receive both the Bremerton and Vashon translators.

In light of this, I think KIRO should redo and improve their "quickie-commercial" that mentions their translators. The general public has no clue what that means - especially now because it would require a re-scan of their TV set or converter box.
Jim

Jim in Seattle

07-12-09, 07:40 PM

Here are a few shots of the KIRO-7 (39) site from this past Friday morning thru afternoon.
Jim

rdn

07-12-09, 07:43 PM

Nice pics, Jim. Thanks for posting them.

Jim in Seattle

07-12-09, 09:03 PM

rdn wrote:
Nice pics, Jim. Thanks for posting them.
---------------------------------------
Thank you Bob. This forum supports only 5 (reduced) photos per posting, so I had to select a few to post of the 180+ photos I shot. I hope its not bad that I used two postings to get the past week here posted (certain forums have their own protocals).

To repeat, Kelly-From-Komo (4) said here earlier the KOMO-4 antenna weighs 11,000 pounds and that inspired me to watch the smaller KIRO antenna transition. Hearing the KIRO-7 antenna LITERALLY crush itself when it was very gently placed (horizontally) on the ground was - UM - interesting.
Jim

teeitup

07-12-09, 10:16 PM

Very interesting pictures! Ingenious how they use the temporary (red) structure mounted to the side to rig the antenna off the top. Otherwise there would be nothing higher to lift from. When is the digital antenna going to be moved to the top?

Trip in VA

07-12-09, 10:20 PM

zyland

07-13-09, 01:04 AM

Sometime between Friday and tonight, KBTC turned off it's analog nightlight. Four weeks since it started.

jackie89

07-13-09, 01:44 AM

Cool photos! Have they gotten the new sections to the top yet? What are they doing with the old one? I'm working in Bellevue tomorrow so I might just head on down there again and have another look. Is the old VHF antenna still sitting in the lot?

I wonder if the FCC will ever grant a CP for KBTC's application for more power and a new antenna at the top of the tower. They want to do 100kW up from their current 45kW. They've got a little tiny side mount at the top of the tower-top pole currently for DTV with a much larger side mount on the side of the tower for NTSC. There's also another little one at the bottom of the pole, possibly an aux? I bet that extra boost will help many people in Seattle who are currently in the fringe receive KBTC.

tschall

07-13-09, 12:44 PM

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 09:30 PM

I feel like I've missed something big in Seattle.

Zyland sent me new data for the Seattle TV stations he could receive, and I found odd data streams on KUNS, KWDK, and KMYQ. They look almost like extra video/audio feeds, but they're either encrypted or hidden or in some format that TSReader cannot understand.

http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/wa-sea/4624-0_0.htm

See all those extra "Unknown Usage" streams at the bottom? Does someone know something that I don't?

- Trip

Jim in Seattle

07-13-09, 09:38 PM

jackie89 wrote:
Cool photos! Have they gotten the new sections to the top yet? What are they doing with the old one?
----------------------------------------
Dale,
I stopped by my 7-11 photo site very briefly today and they have dropped the UHF antenna, probably to verify its condition before they install it in the sky. Currently, I have no signal from "39" (duh!). Thank goodness for their Bremerton (and Vashon) translators.

Many people and myself, in the 7-11 parking lot watched three crazy Ironworkers ride the cable to the top of the tower and it appears they were in the process of removing the triangular mounting plate that supported the VHF antenna for 51 years. The four new tower sections are still on the ground and I don't know if the VHF antenna is still sitting under their tower. There wasn't much to photograph while I was there, so no photos this time.
Jim

Just below this post it was mentioned the secondary or 'backup' antenna was removed. Please note this if you view my photos, I may have refered to this antenna as if it was the new '48' antenna and if so I was wrong. Fresh photos are up here now.

Jim in Seattle

07-13-09, 09:51 PM

Trip in VA wrote:
I feel like I've missed something big in Seattle.

Zyland sent me new data for the Seattle TV stations he could receive, and I found odd data streams on KUNS, KWDK, and KMYQ. They look almost like extra video/audio feeds, but they're either encrypted or hidden or in some format that TSReader cannot understand. http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/wa-sea/4624-0_0.htm

See all those extra "Unknown Usage" streams at the bottom? Does someone know something that I don't?

- Trip
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Trip,
I don't have a clue what any of that page really means but I see exactly what you refer to. On the left side of the page there is another curious entry: " - Audio type: undefined - " OK, what does that mean?
Jim

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 09:57 PM

Trip,
I don't have a clue what any of that page really means but I see exactly what you refer to. On the left side of the page there is another curious entry: " - Audio type: undefined - " OK, what does that mean?
Jim

Good question. I don't think it's important. I don't claim to understand all the little intricacies, but I don't think it causes any particular issue, so far as I know. Other stations have that entry and I don't think it impacts anything.

Someone else might have a better idea than I do.

- Trip

jackie89

07-13-09, 11:47 PM

jackie89 wrote:
Cool photos! Have they gotten the new sections to the top yet? What are they doing with the old one?
----------------------------------------
Dale,
I stopped by my 7-11 photo site very briefly today and they have dropped the UHF antenna, probably to verify its condition before they install it in the sky. Currently, I have no signal from "39" (duh!). Thank goodness for their Bremerton (and Vashon) translators.

Many people and myself, in the 7-11 parking lot watched three crazy Ironworkers ride the cable to the top of the tower and it appears they were in the process of removing the triangular mounting plate that supported the VHF antenna for 51 years. The four new tower sections are still on the ground and I don't know if the VHF antenna is still sitting under their tower. There wasn't much to photograph while I was there, so no photos this time.
Jim

I went up there at about 1:30 today and they had the old TW chopped up into pieces sitting on a trailer :eek:. And I could see why too, the exterior pipe with the slots was about 12" in diameter with walls over an inch thick. I bet they'll be getting a considerable amount for scrap! They also had the white channel 7 batwing aux chopped in two sitting on the trailer. I almost asked them if I could unbolt one of the batwing sections to use for a coat hook :D

I watched them lower down the top section of the tower with the mounting plate before I had to go downtown. They had a Hummer parked next to the site holding down the tag line :p

tschall

07-14-09, 12:17 PM

Moonus

07-14-09, 03:48 PM

It appears to be encrypted data. Most likely for these guys: http://www.sezmi.com/

Interesting. Sezmi's website suggests a combination of OTA, Internet accessible content, and a DVR (which may even be shared/distributed), though it's a little vague on the details. For example, what are they using the "encrypted data" broadcasts for (discussed above)? Does anyone have additional information regarding this?

teeitup

07-14-09, 04:19 PM

Interesting. Sezmi's website suggests a combination of OTA, Internet accessible content, and a DVR (which may even be shared/distributed), though it's a little vague on the details. For example, what are they using the "encrypted data" broadcasts for (discussed above)? Does anyone have additional information regarding this?

"The service piggybacks on unused digital spectrum held by TV stations across the country. As partial return for use of those airwaves, Sezmi is letting local stations build local portals on the service — basically a channel where the local station displays news and ads."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/brierdudley/2004384506_brier01.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_Nov_13/ai_n31000316/

tschall

07-14-09, 04:51 PM

"The service piggybacks on unused digital spectrum held by TV stations across the country. As partial return for use of those airwaves, Sezmi is letting local stations build local portals on the service — basically a channel where the local station displays news and ads."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/brierdudley/2004384506_brier01.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_Nov_13/ai_n31000316/

I'm not saying for sure that's what this data is. It's an educated guess. My multi-mega bucks stream analyzer is dead. Once it's repaired I'll have a look.

Kelly From KOMO

07-14-09, 05:09 PM

For KUNS, its extra data being tested for a new product not associated with the Univision TV broadcasts.

litzdog911

07-14-09, 05:53 PM

"The service piggybacks on unused digital spectrum held by TV stations across the country. As partial return for use of those airwaves, Sezmi is letting local stations build local portals on the service — basically a channel where the local station displays news and ads."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/brierdudley/2004384506_brier01.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_Nov_13/ai_n31000316/

I think this service is similar to the SCA subcarriers used by some FM stations.

Jim in Seattle

07-14-09, 08:04 PM

Since my last post, the VHF antenna base has been removed and two new tower sections are in place. About 4 PM I talked to the owner of the Company doing the work on the KIRO tower and he said the old and new section went together without too much trouble, mainly problems with the new sections.

Tomorrow morning starting at 7, they will raise the Jay Pole and around 8 AM they will begin adding the final two tower sections which is now standing (bolted together) at the base of the tower with the aircraft warning lamp already installed. Not necessarily tomorrow, but depending on how far they get, they will add feedline to the top of the tower and install the UHF antenna on top.

The owner of the Company is a nice chap and he said their crew just returned from doing a similar job in Florida and it was miserable: humidity! Their next job after KIRO is to "replace the three spires" on the Mt Sutro tower in San Francisco. http://www.sutrotower.org/

(...warning, don't google "sutra tower" or you are in for quite a surprise - LOL!) :eek:

I asked if they were going to do the KOMO tower and he said they replaced the old antenna several years ago (Kelly from KOMO said it weighed 11,000 pounds) and he said the KIRO VHF antenna weighed 12,000 pounds! They have bid on the new KOMO project, but that job is still an unknown.
Jim

jaymw

07-15-09, 12:32 AM

Hi folks,

Here in North Seattle, I see a fairly large broadband signal occupying channel 26. It is about 35 dB below channel 25 (22.1 etc). None of my DTV tuners detect it so I don't think it is a DTV service.

Wrong channel for MediaFlow. Looks like noise to the NTSC tuner too :-)

Anyone know what it is?

Trip in VA

07-15-09, 12:35 AM

I'm not saying for sure that's what this data is. It's an educated guess. My multi-mega bucks stream analyzer is dead. Once it's repaired I'll have a look.

If it makes you feel any better, one of our pieces of test gear has been at the shop for a month or more.

That is an interesting service. I'll have to investigate this further. Thanks for the tip. :)

- Trip

Trip in VA

07-15-09, 12:36 AM

jackie89

07-15-09, 01:47 AM

I asked if they were going to do the KOMO tower and he said they replaced the old antenna several years ago (Kelly from KOMO said it weighed 11,000 pounds) and he said the KIRO VHF antenna weighed 12,000 pounds! They have bid on the new KOMO project, but that job is still an unknown.
Jim

Wonder when KING is going to do their work? They've got a CP for a new antenna on the top and upping the power to 1000kW. I guess they could be waiting for approval of KONG's application for a similar change to be approved so they can hit two birds with one tower crew.

Falcon_77

07-15-09, 11:03 AM

Tomorrow morning starting at 7, they will raise the Jay Pole and around 8 AM they will begin adding the final two tower sections which is now standing (bolted together) at the base of the tower with the aircraft warning lamp already installed. Not necessarily tomorrow, but depending on how far they get, they will add feedline to the top of the tower and install the UHF antenna on top.

Thank you for the pictures you have posted already. I will be interested in seeing the finished product.

I also noticed that KING's maximization app was granted. It will be a non-directional antenna as well, which should help reception to the West (in addition to moving from a side-mount to a top-mount). Reception to the East also should improve since the current pattern is a "peanut" pattern favoring the North and South.

teeitup

07-15-09, 12:50 PM

I also noticed that KING's maximization app was granted. It will be a non-directional antenna as well, which should help reception to the West (in addition to moving from a side-mount to a top-mount). Reception to the East also should improve since the current pattern is a "peanut" pattern favoring the North and South.

Why would Kiro opt to use a directional antenna instead of non-directional? Komo and King come in much stronger than Kiro at my location on the west side of the Puget Sound. This is probably due to Komo and King using non-directional antennas.

Trip in VA

07-15-09, 12:58 PM

Why would Kiro opt to use a directional antenna instead of non-directional?

Probably because they have so many translators all over the place.

- Trip

quarque

07-15-09, 09:00 PM

It's called a gin pole.

- Trip

I'll drink to that! :D

Nice pics Jim.

MarioMania

07-16-09, 02:23 PM

Can anyone get any Analog Canadian Stations in now??

Like CBUT Ch 2

Jim in Seattle

07-16-09, 03:24 PM

Here's a (Monday) shot of the crew on their way to work, (Tuesday) the first two sections installed, the final two sections on the ground and then (Wednesday) after they were installed.
Jim

finlay648

07-16-09, 06:26 PM

Can anyone get any Analog Canadian Stations in now??

Like CBUT Ch 2

Those of us near the Canadian border likely can. I get good 2, 6, 10 and 23 and bad 21 and 53. I can't see any Canadian digital channels.

Jim in Seattle

07-16-09, 07:09 PM

MarioMania wrote:
Can anyone get any Analog Canadian Stations in now?? Like CBUT Ch 2
--------------------------------------------------------------
MarioMania,
Before KVOS-12 changed to 35 I had a 'cut-to-12' Yagi in the air to receive them and from time to time I could receive channel 10 from BC. Currently, I don't have an appropriate antenna for high-VHF but my TV set still detects their analog video carrier on my home-brew 'cut to 35' Yagi. How about that.
Jim

Jim in Seattle

07-16-09, 07:33 PM

Regarding the KIRO Bremerton/Silverdale translator, does anyone else on the forum completely lose its signal for 20-40 seconds DAILY sometime between 3:40 and 3:50 PM? I lose their signal on my CM-4228 but I can switch to my KVOS-35 Yagi and enough signal is there (coming into it 35 degrees to the side) to restore a picture.

This daily event is just like clockwork, not just predictable but guaranteed to happen - but only once per day and always at roughly the same time. Bizarre! Why would this effect one antenna and not the other one and what could be causing it?

I am certain its not do to Cruise Ships, Freighters on Ferrys in Elliot Bay. Perhaps a rush hour traffic helicopter that launches from near the transmitter and it briefly blocks the signal toward me? :confused:
Jim

Spike89

07-16-09, 09:04 PM

Regarding the KIRO Bremerton/Silverdale translator, does anyone else on the forum completely lose its signal for 20-40 seconds DAILY sometime between 3:40 and 3:50 PM?

Don't know about why this happens, but when I worked for AT&T Wireless, we had a certain cell site in NYC that would drop like clockwork for about 20 minutes around 11pm every weekday. This was a small microcell whose radios were in a closet in an office building. After several days of having the field tech called out only to get there and find the site back up, he decided to get there early and watch the site. Turns out the janitor was unplugging the cell site because he needed to use the A/C outlet to run his vacuum cleaner for about 20 minutes. When finished, he'd plug the site back in and move on to the next area. Classic. :)

DanKurts

07-16-09, 11:37 PM

Here's a (Monday) shot of the crew on their way to work, (Tuesday) the first two sections installed, the final two sections on the ground and then (Wednesday) after they were installed.
Jim

Jim
Haven't had a chance till now, but thanks for taking all the pictures. Very cool!
A gazillion years ago, in the military, I had to go up a 125ft tower to fix an antenna. Seemed like a mile high. First and last time. Told them if they orderd me back up, just throw me in the brig, no way I'm going back up.
The reason I mention this is you can't begin to appreciate the nerves of steel to do this kind of work. This is one of my all time fav pictures that brings the hairs up on the back of my neck just looking at it. It's the Empire State Bldg antenna. NO amount of money could get me up there !!!!
Dan

DanKurts

07-16-09, 11:40 PM

Don't know about why this happens, but when I worked for AT&T Wireless, we had a certain cell site in NYC that would drop like clockwork for about 20 minutes around 11pm every weekday. This was a small microcell whose radios were in a closet in an office building. After several days of having the field tech called out only to get there and find the site back up, he decided to get there early and watch the site. Turns out the janitor was unplugging the cell site because he needed to use the A/C outlet to run his vacuum cleaner for about 20 minutes. When finished, he'd plug the site back in and move on to the next area. Classic. :)

Spike89
2 Reel !!
Brought an instant smile. Have seen or heard of this kind of problem many times over the years. Persistency in troubleshooting always pays off!
Excellent.
Dan

NeedMyTV

07-17-09, 05:44 AM

Taken from the KIRO website:

Updated: 5:21 pm PDT July 16, 2009

SEATTLE -- KIRO 7 has completed work on our HD antenna on Queen Anne tower. This work was required as part of the federally-mandated transition to digital television.

Due to unforeseen circumstances, removing the analog antenna on top of the tower and replacing it with the HD antenna took longer than scheduled.

During the tower work, there was a disruption of service for DISH and DirectTV subscribers along with some viewers who receive our signal over the air. We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

The work is complete and we are once again broadcasting at full power. Thank you for watching KIRO 7.

Jim in Seattle

07-17-09, 01:34 PM

Jim in Seattle

07-17-09, 01:40 PM

re: Work Complete On KIRO 7 Tower...
-------------------------------------------
Thanks for the update. I checked and I now have a rock-solid '48' at a strength of 16, received on my channel 35 Yagi, coming in at about 40 degrees to the side. It will be interesting to see what happens when I point my 'cut to 39' Yagi at it. It may require attenuation. Currently, I'll stay with the Silverdale translator and its higher signal at 65.
Jim

Falcon_77

07-17-09, 03:08 PM

Can anyone get any Analog Canadian Stations in now??

Like CBUT Ch 2

I'm pretty sure I pulled CBUT on E-skip from SoCal. It was a CBC station in the Pacific Time Zone on 2. This happened the day after KCBS/2 ended its analog nightlight. I haven't had any luck the last 3 nights, however. Having 2-5 empty locally makes E-skip much more interesting. That was my first find.

Falcon_77

07-17-09, 03:16 PM

KIRO 7 has completed work on our HD antenna on Queen Anne tower.

When time permits, I would like to see a completed work picture. It appears that KIRO added new sections to the tower, but I don't remember the AGL figure changing for the antenna. Perhaps this is due to UHF antennas generally being smaller.

Jim in Seattle

07-17-09, 08:12 PM

Falcon_77, et al:

Here is one shot from Thursday afternoon and four others shots taken this afternoon (Friday) from three different angles.

At first, I thought it was odd they would choose to side-mount their antenna, but it dawned on me by altering the tower as they have, they are in a perfect position to host two other transmitting antennas on the open sides.
Jim

PS for Falcon: what does "AGL figure" mean? Above ground limit?

PPS Sorry for the powerlines in the Southeast photo: I wanted to shoot from approximately the same distance as the others.

Trip in VA

07-17-09, 08:14 PM

AGL = Above Ground Level.

- Trip

rdn

07-17-09, 09:48 PM

Jim in Seattle

07-18-09, 12:19 AM

Falcon_77 wrote:
I'm pretty sure I pulled CBUT on E-skip from SoCal. It was a CBC station in the Pacific Time Zone on 2. This happened the day after KCBS/2 ended its analog nightlight. I haven't had any luck the last 3 nights, however. Having 2-5 empty locally makes E-skip much more interesting. That was my first find.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Falcon_77,

OK, this offer is directed to YOU and it should be offlist: however, if any others here want it and you don't ...

This is the ideal time to 'look' for low band analog, but I don't have the setup I had when I was a teen living with my parents (antenna farm) so I can't take advantage of this - RATS!

If you are serious about DX-ing low band analog from Canada or from Mexico, I may have an antenna you need. Well, I don't actually have it, but years ago I installed a Finco "cut-to-4" Yagi (10-bar-?) at a friend's place 35+ miles from Seattle.

Three weeks ago I dropped off a CM-4221 there, to replace that antenna and the Finco looks like its still in very good condition. Hey, it's big! If you want it for the packing and shipping cost, I'll do the round trip and make it yours.
Jim

Falcon_77

07-18-09, 10:34 AM

At first, I thought it was odd they would choose to side-mount their antenna, but it dawned on me by altering the tower as they have, they are in a perfect position to host two other transmitting antennas on the open sides.
Jim

Thanks, Jim.

This seems like a lot of work to keep the side mount, at lower power, since the CP hasn't been granted yet. The STA was granted for 610kW at the new height.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1319640&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=66781

The wording on the STA request (granted on 7/6) doesn't make sense, however, since this is not a top mount. Perhaps they have other plans as you have indicated. Is it cheaper to add new arrays on the other sides or file for a new top mount, non-directional antenna later?

Edit: Another thought I had is since the antenna appears to be center fed, perhaps they can't easily top mount it.

As for the antenna, thanks, but I don't think it will fit in my attic. The Y5-2-6 barely does. ;)

If I can ever get a house (I'm in a condo now), this may change, but thanks for asking. :)

rdvegas

07-18-09, 10:43 AM

I'm pretty sure I pulled CBUT on E-skip from SoCal. It was a CBC station in the Pacific Time Zone on 2. This happened the day after KCBS/2 ended its analog nightlight. I haven't had any luck the last 3 nights, however. Having 2-5 empty locally makes E-skip much more interesting. That was my first find.

On July 4th 1987 I took a small portable TV with me to near the top of a minor peak just east of Marietta, GA, where W55BM had there LP transmitter. It was about noon local time, so when I found the Today Show still broadcasting on channel 4, I paid attention. Station ID's and local commercials proved it to be KNBC Los Angeles.

In the early 70's I received CMU-2 Havana in Knoxville, TN when local WSJK-2 Sneedville, TN (PBS) didn't have a summer morning schedule.

And finally, one night while working at WTVK-26 Knoxville, we signed off about 1am. I noticed that the OTA monitor in the studio was still flickering with an image. Closer inspection revealed it was pulling in the channel 26 station from New Orleans on rabbit ears. The reception was good enough for a solid ID.

Jim in Seattle

07-18-09, 02:23 PM

Falcon_77 wrote:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1319640&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=66781

The wording on the STA request (granted on 7/6) doesn't make sense, however, since this is not a top mount. Perhaps they have other plans as you have indicated. Is it cheaper to add new arrays on the other sides or file for a new top mount, non-directional antenna later?
-------------------------------------------------------
Falcon,
You're right: the CP was issued for a top mount. So, with the four added tower sections, how tall is their tower and can they still add a top mount antenna or would it be overheight?
Jim

Jim in Seattle

07-18-09, 02:30 PM

I just noticed KING has joined the club.
Jim

http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=34847&jaws=0

3. BPCDT-20080617AED GRANTED 07/10/2009|View Map
Record Type: Digital TV (DTV) Station
Construction Permit Expires: 07/10/2012
Geographic Coordinates: 47-37'55 N / 122-20'59 W
Channel: 48
Analog Channel: 5
Domestic Status: Construction Permit
Elevation: 131.2 m AMSL
Effective ERP: 1000 kW
Non-Directional Antenna
Antenna Polarization: Horizontal
Visual Power Output: 0 kW
Maximum HAAT: 297 m
Radiation center-above mean sea level: 297.2m
Radiation Center above average terrain: 257m
Overall antenna height above ground: 173.7m
Border Zone: Located km from Canada

DanKurts

07-19-09, 12:50 AM

DanKurts wrote:
Jim
... "This is one of my all time fav pictures that brings the hairs up on the back of my neck just looking at it. It's the Empire State Bldg antenna. NO amount of money could get me up there !!!!
Dan"
-----------------------------------------
Dan,
I looked at your photo and my stomach bounced. :eek: A good friend of mine was an ironworker and he took me to the top of one of the Bellevue skyscrapers while it was hardly more than a skeleton. Not a job for me!
Jim

PS My girlfriends' stomach jumped (no dinner cooked for us tonight) and my Cousin Anne in California (I zapped the photo to her) said she had to leave her computer for an hour.

Awesome photo to have as a background scene - few would be willing to get near to THAT screen to mess with that CPU -- LOL --

Jim
That's the very reason I kept that photo. Odd as it may sound, it keeps me "grounded" in my work, forces me to keep focused even when I think about it.
Another that makes shudder is the History channel show on the building of the Empire. Shows old film of those guys walking around on those skeleton beams, 800ft or more up, no safety ropes or anything.
Whoa.
Makes 20 or 30ft up on a roof seem like nothing. But it isn't. Even that's dangerous, so safety first, peoples, from the dude that's had some very close calls.
Dan

Whidbey

07-19-09, 05:56 PM

This is one of my all time fav pictures that brings the hairs up on the back of my neck just looking at it. It's the Empire State Bldg antenna. NO amount of money could get me up there !!!!
Dan

I'd have no problem doing what they are doing... but I would have to pass on being their photographer. That's just too high...:)

Jim in Seattle

07-19-09, 07:38 PM

Whidbey wrote:
(Originally Posted by DanKurts)
This is one of my all time fav pictures that brings the hairs up on the back of my neck just looking at it. It's the Empire State Bldg antenna. NO amount of money could get me up there !!!!
Dan
----------------------
I'd have no problem doing what they are doing... but I would have to pass on being their photographer. That's just too high...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
----------------------------------------------------
Whidbey, that's too funny! For a second laugh, I clicked on your FCC link and I quote to you the third line: "Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule"

That sounds like something from a Football game: "Seahawks Rule!" (I wish)
Jim :)

Jim in Seattle

07-19-09, 08:58 PM

For those of you here who taken the time to walk-in antennas, you know what finding 'the sweet spot' means.

Since the KIRO-7 (39) main antenna change is complete I wanted to see what changes I would find here, so I spent the day running several different flags up the pole including my homebrew 'cut to 38' 12 bar Yagi which was the only antenna that worked out of several I tried.

The following observations were with that Yagi pointed ENE at the KIRO QA Hill transmitter: my first test was at 14 feet above my roofline: the same height I found best here before they raised their transmitting antenna, but with my Yagi angled upward on a special bracket at a 10 degree angle: the second test was with the same antenna mounted level: the result was no difference when angled or flat but their signal was FAR stronger than before: "current 60 and peak 65" with the set's AGC reporting 33%. Before the change, their signal rarely broke 'strength' 10. This height is a 'real sweet spot' here.

When I raised it at all, up to 21 feet over the roofline, the signal level dropped significantly and bounced around wildly from 21 to 35. I assume this is do to either an overload or from a multipath situation.

Lowering it to 12' above the roofline dropped the signal to 49/54. At 10' it dropped to 21 to 54 (wild) with dropouts.

Only one foot lower at nine feet the signal returned! 49-65, AGC at 39%. I assume this is a second (narrow) 'sweet spot' do to signal layering. Immediately below this level there was either no signal, too much or multipath.

So, as I took the antenna down (now only 5' above my roofline and no signal) for the heck of it I spun it around the compass and when pointed WNW over an empty Elliot Bay toward Silverdale from QA Hill the signal was absolutely rock-solid at 49/54 with the lowest AGC indicated yet, at 32. Excellent signal, but still not as good at the solid 65 I receive from the Bremerton/Silverdale translator on a CM-4228 (on the SAME compass bearing! :confused:) I guess the next test will be to try different elevations pointing West-ish! How bizarre!
Jim
PS :eek:

twostar

07-20-09, 11:12 AM

Jim-

I had almost exactly the same experience a month ago. I wanted to watch a sounders game that was being carried only on the KUNS 51. I'm located in Bellevue so that means I need to whip my antenna around to near 180 from the Seattle stations to pick it up. After watching the game I figured I'd just see what the other stations have and flipping through I picked up (virtual) 4, 5, 7 and 28!

I finally got my VHF yagi this weekend and installed it Sunday. So now that I'm picking up 9, 11, and 13 with that, I just might try turning my UHF antenna around again since ION is also behind me. If it's stable with the rest of the main channels I'll just keep it pointed the "wrong" direction.

Speaking of the VHF antenna, I picked up the 5 element yagi everyone was talking about here and a vhf-uhf combiner. Installed that last night up on the same mast as the UHF antenna and just did a quick pointing estimate and picked up the channels again. First time seeing 13 and 11 since the change over and 9 is a lot more stable. Also picked up a religious channel that has 3 video channels and a radio channel. First DTV radio station I've seen, too bad I don't listen to that kind of radio. The call and freq. escapes me a the moment.

I'll probably order another one of the VHF yagi's for my parents' place. They're outside of Boise and most of their channels are still in the VHF range. They're tired of paying satellite prices for TV when they only watch the local news. It'll be even easier pointing since all the stations transmit from the same peak. Anyone know anything about the Boise market I might need to know before kitting up some equipment for them?

P. Klipsch

07-20-09, 01:13 PM

twostar,
I'm planning a trip to Boise so I checked at TV FOOL. All their stations, except one, transmit from one location and with both VHF and UHF. Looks like they should get good results with a small V/U antenna. All channels appear to be line of site, however, it all depends on their location.

Trip in VA

07-20-09, 01:17 PM

I'm planning a trip to Boise so I checked at TV FOOL.

Are you taking a receiver to Boise? If so, what kind?

- Trip

Whidbey

07-20-09, 09:47 PM

I'm getting "something" from channel 19.1 when I have my antenna pointed north. No sound or video, just a black screen. The signal registers at 80% and better on my DTV Pal. Can't pick up the signal with the antenna poited south towards Seattle.
Any ideas what it might be?

Trip in VA

07-20-09, 09:50 PM

Probably KBCB-DT from Bellingham.

- Trip

Jim in Seattle

07-20-09, 10:00 PM

twostar wrote:

Jim-
I had almost exactly the same experience a month ago. I wanted to watch a sounders game that was being carried only on the KUNS 51. I'm located in Bellevue so that means I need to whip my antenna around to near 180 from the Seattle stations to pick it up. After watching the game I figured I'd just see what the other stations have and flipping through I picked up (virtual) 4, 5, 7 and 28! ...
-------------------------------------------------------------
twostar, et al:
I studied a map and the most significant 'reflector' on the exact compass bearing from me is Mount Olympus, in the Olympic Mountain Range. It rises to almost 8,000 feet, 140 miles away (round-trip) and it's line-of-sight at ground level.

How likely is it, that the KIRO-39 signal is reflecting back to me from there? If this is "my signal source" what is likely to happen to the signal over the winter when it is buried by feet of snow? For the record, my homebrew 12 element 'cut-to-38' 12-bar Yagi theoretically offers 12.5 db gain, at 6 mhz below KIRO's signal. Thanks in advance,
Jim

Jim in Seattle

07-20-09, 11:57 PM

Whidbey wrote:
I'm getting "something" from channel 19.1 when I have my antenna pointed north. No sound or video, just a black screen. The signal registers at 80% and better on my DTV Pal. Can't pick up the signal with the antenna poited south towards Seattle.
Any ideas what it might be?
---------------------------------
You didn't tell us if it was analog or digital. If analog, I'd say its from somewhere in Canada. Trip responded KBCB (the buy-it-now channel) in Bellingham but another possibility might be KCKA (-DT) in Centralia which is a translator for KBTC-28. Not likely!
Jim

http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=&call=KCKA&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

Whidbey

07-21-09, 10:34 AM

You didn't tell us if it was analog or digital. If analog, I'd say its from somewhere in Canada. Trip responded KBCB (the buy-it-now channel) in Bellingham but another possibility might be KCKA (-DT) in Centralia which is a translator for KBTC-28. Not likely!

Digital. And I tried again later and found that I was able to get a strong signal from the south as well. So whatever it may be must have pretty good line of sight from me. My best "LOS" channels come from Orcas Island and Bremerton.
Trip mentioned it may be KBCB, I never checked to see if I was still getting 24.1, which is it's virtual number. If their physical channel is 19 and they are having difficulties, that could be what I'm seeing.
FWIW, I was able to get a good steady signal from PBS Tacoma last night. It's not often I get to enjoy The Red Green show in digital clarity!

rdn

07-21-09, 12:02 PM

The "Northwest Broadcasters" site has redone the digital listings and now includes subchannel information http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm. Canadian information is missing, so it is probably a work in process.

Edit: The Canadian information is now in a separate table. I didn't think to scroll down the page far enough :D

seatacboy

07-22-09, 10:51 PM

The "Northwest Broadcasters" site has redone the digital listings and now includes subchannel information http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm. Canadian information is missing, so it is probably a work in process. Also worth noting: Victoria's CHEK-TV is literally going off the air August 31 (http://www.timescolonist.com/news/CHEK+closing/1817386/story.html).

Jim in Seattle

07-23-09, 10:19 PM

seatacboy wrote:

Also worth noting: Victoria's CHEK-TV is literally going off the air August 31 (http://www.timescolonist.com/news/CHEK+closing/1817386/story.html).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
That's very sad. Over 30 years whenever I was within range of their audio signal (even in North Seattle) I have listened to their 5 PM newscasts while commuting in my car on my FM radio. The first time I found them was on a Pioneer Super-Tuner, around 1977.
Jim

Eric J

07-27-09, 07:05 PM

Hi - I've been lurking here and learning a lot.

I live on the far side of a hill (I think its technically Finn Hill in Bothell) - 15700 block of Waynita Way - I am completely blocked line-of-sight from any transmitter, on the bottom floor of an apartment building with my windows facing east.

Still, with an unamplified DB2 suctioned-cupped to my window, I can get most of the UHF channels I care about, by facing the antenna EAST - I'm obviously getting a reflection off the next hill or even the lamp post outside my apartment. For what its worth, I do wish I had gotten a DB4 or CM4221, but this antenna works real well for the conditions. I can get the bellevue stations strongly if I aim the antenna south but I don't have clearance to aim it south-east to get Seattle stations directly.

I do NOT get 9,11,13 now, like many of you. I never did get 13 reliably when it was on UHF 18 but I got 9 and 11 before the change. I've done the rescanning of course. With a dipole held off my balcony I can get a hint of a signal on my DTV converter boxes on those RF channels, but not enough to actually view anything. I've ordered
(backordered) a Y5-7-13 and a UVSJ in hopes I can aim it at some reflected signal.

Do I stand a prayer of this VHF antenna working in this situation? :) I only expect to live here a couple more months but this has become something of a challenge for me! Should I add a CM7777 to my order?

Well I upgraded a few things are here are my results: Replaced the DB2 with a 4221, added the Y5-7-13 (was backordered for about a month!), plugged them in with a UVSJ... aimed the Y5 EAST which gets me a reflection off of Norway Hill... and now I'm getting every channel in a somewhat readable fashion, particularly 9 and 11 (which I lost after the transition) and 13 (which I never got reliably before).

I hate to admit it, but in the course of messing with all this I replaced an old run of RG59 with a new run of RG6 and that alone made a tremendous difference.

Thanks for the various bits of advice and encouragement on this project!

Jim in Seattle

07-29-09, 02:33 PM

Listers,
I drove by the KOMO tower Tuesday and someone was about half way up working on something. Does anyone know if this is the start of their antenna changeout? I repeatedly tried to attach a photo to this post, but it "won't take". Maybe it will work later.
Jim

Update: Today Wednesday, I talked to the workmen and they are doing a different project on the tower. They said a different crew has been there surveying the tower itself, to determine what needs to be reinforced or rebuilt before the antenna changeover.

twostar

07-30-09, 12:12 PM

How likely is it, that the KIRO-39 signal is reflecting back to me from there? If this is "my signal source" what is likely to happen to the signal over the winter when it is buried by feet of snow? For the record, my homebrew 12 element 'cut-to-38' 12-bar Yagi theoretically offers 12.5 db gain, at 6 mhz below KIRO's signal. Thanks in advance,
Jim

I can't really speak to how the reflection is happening. I'm on top of a hill and using a wide angle UHF antenna. I have no idea where I was getting a reflection but i was roughly pointing towards snoqualmie peak. I haven't been able to get back up and test it out to even pin down the direction the reflection is coming from. Part of the problem is not having a signal strength meter, just using the tuners in the house.

I also wouldn't expect this wide angle UHF antenna to have enough gain to reliably pick up a reflection off the cascades. All in all I'm kinda stumped as to what exactly is happening. Maybe once the snow hits the mountains again I can try picking up the reflection again to see if it's local or a mountain side. I'd expect the snow to dampen any reflection pretty severely.

All this antenna work has gotten me thinking about using my ham license again. I keep thinking about running another mast up with some 2 m and 70cm antennas to play around with the satellites but that's another forum.

rdn

08-02-09, 05:43 PM

Because of Seafair coverage, KIRO moved the Buick Open to 7.2, but they squeezed the 16:9 feed down to 4:3. Is there some reason they don't broadcast it in the OAR (I suspect there is a flag to switch)? I can correct it with my various displays, of course.

I recall that back when they repeated the local news broadcasts on 7.2 they did the same thing.

It's 480i, but doesn't look all that bad.

allen98311

08-03-09, 03:26 AM

tschall

08-03-09, 11:31 AM

If you mean that the net result was 'tall skinny' people then they need to consider one of three things. Either stuff it through an aspect ratio converter and letter box it. Center cut it. Or set the 16:9 flag. The problem with the last solution is that 16:9 SD isn't well supported by a lot of the coupon eligible STBs. The other problem with the last solution is that switching aspect ratios 'out from underneath' an operating STB or TV is an almost guarenteed way to make the picture quit working.

hitbyambulance

08-04-09, 12:41 AM

I wonder if the FCC will ever grant a CP for KBTC's application for more power and a new antenna at the top of the tower. They want to do 100kW up from their current 45kW. They've got a little tiny side mount at the top of the tower-top pole currently for DTV with a much larger side mount on the side of the tower for NTSC. There's also another little one at the bottom of the pole, possibly an aux? I bet that extra boost will help many people in Seattle who are currently in the fringe receive KBTC.

getting KBTC in the downtown Seattle area OTA would be fantastic. i don't suppose this is too much to hope for?

tai4de2

08-04-09, 03:46 AM

getting KBTC in the downtown Seattle area OTA would be fantastic. i don't suppose this is too much to hope for?

I get it OTA near downtown Kirkland, so I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get it in Seattle.

Jim in Seattle

08-04-09, 01:20 PM

getting KBTC in the downtown Seattle area OTA would be fantastic. i don't suppose this is too much to hope for?
-----------------------------------------
What part of downtown Seattle and what are you using for an antenna? I'm half-way up QA Hill and 28 comes thru like gangbusters. :)
Jim

DanKurts

08-05-09, 02:00 AM

getting KBTC in the downtown Seattle area OTA would be fantastic. i don't suppose this is too much to hope for?

hitbyambulance
Getting KBTC has always been a problem. Their tower is located in North Tacoma, just up the hill from Pt Defiance park. The power level is very low at 45kw, compared to others in the UHF range like KOMO or KING with about 900kw+. You also run into the problems of the hills and other terrain. It's very spotty. The waveshape is usually very bumpy. Yes, parts of Kirkland are one of the sweet spots, and those near Puget Sound, high on a hill sometimes do well, too. Actual db level, though is usually very weak. I'm only 6 miles away, but there's a 250ft hill in the way. It never came in until I started using my newer H20 sat box. It only reads -18db on a 4221. I have seen KBTC up on the south end of Whidbey, almost line of sight and 58 miles, on the water at -12db with a big UHF yagi and preamp, give or take, but other places around the greater Puget Sound area it just isn't there. East hill Kent, parts of Lakewood, even Federal Way east of I-5 get nothing.
Downtown Seattle is behind West Seattle and parts of west Burien, depending where you are. If you're in a high rise condo, might be able to see it.
They do have a request for more power to 100kw, but that's still not much.
If you happen to get it, smile, it's a bonus!
Dan

hitbyambulance

08-05-09, 03:37 AM

-----------------------------------------
What part of downtown Seattle and what are you using for an antenna? I'm half-way up QA Hill and 28 comes thru like gangbusters. :)
Jim

i'm in East Fremont, near Wallingford (a block east of Aurora and a few blocks south of 45th), renting the top floor of a house. I'm using an RCA ANT130B UHF/VHF rabbit ears with Channel Master CM-7000 and Zenith DTT-901 CECBs. Currently my antenna is about a foot and a half from my bedroom ceiling.

here is my TVFool analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d582f400aad5849

as an aside, I get 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 16, 22, 33, 42, 44/45, and 51 with no issues - almost all display 100% on the CM-7000's signal meter. 11 wildly fluctuates on my signal meter, but it still works fine. 13 doesn't come in at all.

EDIT: just now i extended the 'ears' of the VHF antenna and now i get 11 perfectly, and 44/45 went from ~60-80 to ~90-100! doh. still can't get 13 or 28.

Jim in Seattle

08-05-09, 11:17 AM

hitbyambulance wrote:
... "I'm using an RCA ANT130B UHF/VHF rabbit ears with Channel Master CM-7000 and Zenith DTT-901 CECBs. Currently my antenna is about a foot and a half from my bedroom ceiling." ...
------------------------------
hitbyambulance,
On the AVS "How to build a UHF antenna Forum" the CM-7000 is considered to be the best analog to digital converter available, in fact its rated far better than many 'onboard' TV set tuners. Since you are renting, I assume you cannot install a rooftop antenna but if you have a deck, you might be able to install a small outdoor antenna on a temporary mount or perhaps on a pole inside your bedroom near your ceiling. I am going to list two small outdoor Yagi antennas on Craigslist this week but if you are interested, contact me via private mail here.
Jim (on QA Hill)

DanKurts

08-05-09, 11:22 PM

i'm in East Fremont, near Wallingford (a block east of Aurora and a few blocks south of 45th), renting the top floor of a house. I'm using an RCA ANT130B UHF/VHF rabbit ears with Channel Master CM-7000 and Zenith DTT-901 CECBs. Currently my antenna is about a foot and a half from my bedroom ceiling.

here is my TVFool analysis: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d582f400aad5849

as an aside, I get 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 16, 22, 33, 42, 44/45, and 51 with no issues - almost all display 100% on the CM-7000's signal meter. 11 wildly fluctuates on my signal meter, but it still works fine. 13 doesn't come in at all.

EDIT: just now i extended the 'ears' of the VHF antenna and now i get 11 perfectly, and 44/45 went from ~60-80 to ~90-100! doh. still can't get 13 or 28.

hitbyambulance
You're about 100ft below the shadow of the hill to the southwest. The path for ch13 doesn't drop off until 42nd & Dayton. Lots of houses and trees. There's also the buildings along the east side of Aurora. Ch13 will be very tough to gone.
Ch28 is blocked by QA hill. Your path goes right through ch7 tower (as you look at the three towers from your house, it's the one on the far right) and almost the highest point on the hill.
Never say never, but it will be a real challenge, specially when you factor in it's very low power.
Dan

hitbyambulance

08-08-09, 05:02 AM

thanks for the info. so it seems i am in an unfortunate area for receiving that station, and i don't have any room for a larger antenna (it's a small top floor of a house)... ah well.

i will make do with the fact that i can* receive so many stations with just a small set-top antenna.

Jim in Seattle

08-08-09, 05:02 PM

[QUOTE=hitbyambulance;16964545]thanks for the info. so it seems i am in an unfortunate area for receiving that station, and i don't have any room for a larger antenna (it's a small top floor of a house)... ah well.
---------------------------------------------------------------
hitbyambulance,
Pardon my screwy imagination, but if you used a Christmas tree stand and a length of tubing as a mast, you could "install" the antenna pictured below at ceiling height and it would use very little space in your room. :D
Jim

ts_peach

08-09-09, 10:32 PM

so when the conversion happened in june we lost fox 13 which we had been getting.

today my father and i tried to adjust the antenna to get 13 (which is at 286 degrees for me) but we lost channels 9 and 11 which are at 330 degrees, when we rescanned.

any tricks to try and get 13 to come back in? we have a two story house with a CM 3016 antenna on the roof. we're located in NE auburn.

we do have an older unused second antenna in the roof of the garage. any chance there's a way to use two antenna on the roof together pointed in different directions to pick up the range? how would i connect that up? or where do i go to find out that info?

the tuner we are using is a panasonic dvd recorder, unfortunately our better tuner was a LG but went out almost to the day of the conversion :(
this formum has been great help in the past. thanks for any help.

teeitup

08-10-09, 10:21 AM

we do have an older unused second antenna in the roof of the garage. any chance there's a way to use two antenna on the roof together pointed in different directions to pick up the range? how would i connect that up? or where do i go to find out that info?

A Channel 13 jointenna should work great to connect your second antenna for channel 13. You would need a model 0583.

http://www.amazon.com/Jointenna-Model-0583-Channel-Combiner/dp/B001RQVF5K

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Jointennas.htm

ts_peach

08-10-09, 06:38 PM

looks like that might work. thanks!

P. Klipsch

08-13-09, 05:29 PM

tschall

08-13-09, 06:12 PM

teeitup

08-17-09, 12:11 PM

teeitup,
I'm so close to channel 13 on Gold Mountain that it desensitizes my tuner and makes it difficult to receive Seattle stations 9 and 11. Only 8 miles away and line of sight. Couldn't that Jointenna 0583 be used as a channel 13 trap? I would install it at my antenna with a 75 ohm terminator for the channel 13 input. I can pick up channel 13 signal 100% with short length of wire (coat hanger) hung behind tv. Could use a switch or perhaps another 0583. Appreciate any input. Mike

A Jointenna is definitely worth a try for your situation. As tschall mentioned, you probably wouldn't even need a second antenna on the Ch 13 input, or even just hang a short piece of wire out of it.

I also have a very strong Ch 13 since I am fairly close to Gold Mtn. Before the transition when KCPQ digital was on UHF 18, I was using a Ch 18 jointenna with a small second antenna. When they moved to VHF, I ended up not needing a Ch 13 jointenna. I just pointed my main (DB4) antenna toward Seattle, and Ch 13 still came in great even though it is about 140 degrees different direction. I don't have any problems receiving 9 or 11.

Moonus

08-18-09, 06:46 PM

Anyone have an inside view of when KSTW (channel 11) is going to be approved to increase their wattage to 100 kW?

Somehow I got it in my head, back in June, that it'd be about 1 month which, at that time, would have put the approval in late July. But I see from the FCC (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KSTW) that they still have a status of "Application" for the higher kW, to say nothing about it also being in the Canadian boarder zone.

I live on the East side of Bainbridge, so you'd think it wouldn't matter, but KSTW seems to be a bit tricky. One of my OTA tuners, a DTT901 picks it up okay (strong enough - around 75%), but another, a Digital Stream DTX9950F, gets almost nowhere with channel 11 (around 10%). I have a fairly good antenna/house cable system. I've tried swapping the tuner boxes between the two cable outlets (thinking maybe one of the sections of cable was the source of the problem), but the disparity remained. Antenna adjustments don't seem to help either. I had been hoping that an increase in the signal strength would help out the Digital Stream.

But maybe it's going to be a while and I should just go buy another DTT901 -- it also has a better program guide than the Digital Stream. The Digital Stream has a universal remote for the TV volume controls, which is nice, but the DTT901 is, overall, better.

But, as to my original question, anyone know what's up with KSTW's increase in power?

Kelly From KOMO

08-21-09, 11:19 PM

KSTW's application is just that, an application. No Construction Permit has been issued yet: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=23428

tschall

08-25-09, 09:07 PM

jengle1023

08-25-09, 10:18 PM

I have a Sony DHG-HDD250 high def recorder connected to a Channel Master 8 bowtie UHF antenna and a VHF antenna on the roof. I combine the signals inside the house right next to the Sony. Most of the day, KING TV 5.1/5.2 show a Signal to noise ratio as displayed by the box in the 18db range. Every day, beginning at about 5:30pm, I start getting wide fluxuation in the S/N ratio. I'm talking 17db and down to 11db. This is causing pixelation of the image. I only get this on KING. KOMO Channel 4.1, and KIRO Channel 7.1 are unaffected by this.
Anybody got a clue as to what might be happening?

rdn

08-26-09, 06:50 AM

East side of Bainbridge I wouldn't expect to be a problem with a semi decent outdoor antenna. How well do you receive KCTS? KCTS is located at the same site about 100' lower in antenna height but with 21.7kw of ERP as opposed to the 12.5kw of KSTW. Also, KCTS uses a non-directional antenna while KSTW uses a directional antenna with nulls to their west and east sides. But then again, as I indicated earlier, they are 100' further up in the air than I am.

IIRC, Moonus is in the Rolling Bay area, which may be blocked a bit by Magnolia and or Queen Anne. I am in Eagledale (south side of Eagle Harbor) and KSTW looks pretty good from here (97% on my Directv HR20, KCTS and KMYQ are 100% with a RS V/U antenna on the roof).

Moonus

08-26-09, 01:07 PM

Thanks for the input (feedback? ha, ha). KCTS is very strong on both my receivers (greater than 95%). It's the one channel which comes in even if I don't have an antenna connected. Maybe I'm in a bad spot for receiving KSTW's directional broadcast? Though I have the odd discrepancy between the DTT901 and the Digital Stream receivers. It makes me think I have multipath (I am using both UHF and VHF antennas, connected through a CM-7777) and the DTT901 is better at resolving the conflict/doing error correction. But perhaps caulk it up to cheap gear in the Digital Stream receiver. Having found that the DTT901 is now hard to find, maybe I'll cough up the (little bit of extra) dough for the CM-7000.

I wish I had something intelligent to offer in terms of jengle1023's issue. Seems like it would be too early in the day for the change in propagation which can affect some signals at sunset (and that's usually only an issue at the margin of reception). As noted in earlier posts, perhaps there's some environmental interference (equipment) which is being turned on everyday around 5:30? How long does it last into the evening?

finlay648

08-26-09, 08:37 PM

rdn

08-27-09, 10:31 AM

I doubt that power will affect multipath, as the direct path and reflections will still have the same relative powers.

tschall

08-27-09, 12:21 PM

One of the biggest problems with some of these set top boxes is that they say 'Weak Signal' when they can't make a picture for any reason. The natural reaction to that is to turn up the power which will frequently make multi-path even worse and cause the signal to get 'weaker.'

The other thing to keep in mind is that making power, at the levels broadcasters play at, is expensive. Buying a bigger transmitter or putting up a different antenna can cost 100's of thousands, sometimes several million, dollars. It has to be weighed with a cost/benefit analysis.

Spike89

08-27-09, 12:44 PM

I...Most of the day, KING TV 5.1/5.2 show a Signal to noise ratio as displayed by the box in the 18db range. Every day, beginning at about 5:30pm, I start getting wide fluxuation in the S/N ratio. I'm talking 17db and down to 11db. This is causing pixelation of the image. I only get this on KING. KOMO Channel 4.1, and KIRO Channel 7.1 are unaffected by this.
Anybody got a clue as to what might be happening?

I started seeing similiar issues on KING both in the evening and sometimes in the morning right around the time that KIRO did their antenna swap (coincidentally?). Not enough of a hit to wipe out the picture, but getting some occasional macroblocking and stuttering audio. Weird since KING is the strongest signal I get. The signal meter will be steady in the upper range, then suddenly and briefly take a dip into the lower third every 10-15 seconds.

I finally just gave up and hooked up a split from comcast into the QAM tuner.

davegtestr

08-28-09, 12:02 PM

I started seeing similiar issues on KING both in the evening and sometimes in the morning right around the time that KIRO did their antenna swap (coincidentally?). Not enough of a hit to wipe out the picture, but getting some occasional macroblocking and stuttering audio. Weird since KING is the strongest signal I get. The signal meter will be steady in the upper range, then suddenly and briefly take a dip into the lower third every 10-15 seconds.

I finally just gave up and hooked up a split from comcast into the QAM tuner.
KING5 started behaving very erratically recently, it is the strongest except for KWPX-31 Bellevue.
I had to raise my indoor antenna to get KING5 and KONG, sacrificing KOMO, but picking up KSTW-11 and KCTS-9 on rabbit ears reliably now. As a mover(address) for baseball, I don't really care about KOMO....
I am using a TERK amplified indoor VHF/UHF on the 2nd story just South of ridge between Mill Creek and Canyon Park (North Road & Filbert).

It may mean they are making adjustments. KIRO behaved very badly back in April/May, causing me to miss some of my favorites on DVR. Now they are better. Well, OTA-KIRO and KING are just sucky 1080i bitrate starved HD feeds, I prefer the cleaner LA feeds using a grey address up North anyway. PM me or look in the satellite forums...

valvashon

08-29-09, 12:18 PM

Did anybody else have KCTS fade away last night during the Bill Moyers show at about 8:30 or so? I was watching in the kitchen (13" tube SD set with old RS bowtie indoor antenna) and then went back out to the living room (Magnavox HD with outdoor antenna). It was at that point I saw lots of macroblocking and then the picture froze completely. I changed channels up and down and then all three signals on 9 showed "no signal" as did the feed from my converter box through the VCR (!). I played around for a bit, even rescanning the Magnavox at which point it did not find 9.1; all other signals were fine. Stepping back in the kitchen I noticed that the 13" set still had a signal. Finished watching there and while I was doing that noticed that 9.1 suddenly popped back in on the Magnavox (I had left it on 9, selected with the channel numbers). I suppose it could have something to do with the rain (which had just started) but I find it hard to believe that it could affect only one channel, a VHF lo band at that and the other VHF signals were not affected. Plus it stayed on in the kitchen.

Val

Kelly From KOMO

08-30-09, 09:59 PM

Did anyone turn on a computer, appliance, or florescent light when you started having reception issues? I've seen a lot of complaints on other VHF DTV stations caused by impulse noise. The interference may not even be coming from your home, but another apartment or neighbor.

johnbr42

08-31-09, 04:54 PM

I'm also seeing KING5 being erratic starting just recently. I've tried some tweaks to the antenna position, but I still have problems. This is also a very string signal. 4 and 7 are fine.

Anyone have any ideas on recent changes near KING5?

tschall

09-01-09, 12:52 AM

Kelly From KOMO

09-03-09, 02:17 PM

....."Crickets".....

Well I guess Val either found the problem or it isn't that important.

wilfried

09-03-09, 02:21 PM

wrong thread sorry...

Kelly From KOMO

09-07-09, 03:56 PM

rdn

09-08-09, 07:53 AM

seatacboy

09-09-09, 09:10 AM

twostar

09-09-09, 11:01 AM

Moonus

09-09-09, 04:39 PM

NeedMyTV

09-10-09, 05:32 AM

Ok, I really should have done this at least 2 weeks ago, but it's time for me to get my OTA setup finalized/ordered/installed. Currently using unamplified CM4020 rabbit ears upstairs (8'+ off the floor) to a single CECB with varying success. Many tall trees in the area and right around the house which help prevent getting reception from downtown stations with the large roof antenna in its present location. Roof antenna currently has a fairly short cable run into the attic, split 3 ways with cables of various length (up to 50' or more?). Antenna is an older large (10'+) VHF/UHF design. No preamps or distribution amps are currently used. I plan on mounting a similar antenna I also have in a different location FAR away on the roof. I do not want to use a rotator on the main antenna. Old antenna will be used to try for channels 28 and 33 only if the newer antenna/different location can't pick up those stations. Upstairs I can always use rabbit ears for channel 13:o Cable run into the attic from the new location will unfortunately be at least 75' due to the L shape of the house. I need to split a minimum of 2 ways, possibly 3. 2 of these cable runs will also get split at the end.

Winegard HDP-269 preamp seems to be the most likely choice due to the closeness of the stations, but I'm not too keen on 3dB of noise with only 12dB of amplification. I'm hoping to make up for all the cable loss and splitters, with maybe a little extra left over. Would a Winegard AP8700 (VHF 17dB/2.8dB noise, UHF 19dB/2.8dB noise) or CM 7778 (VHF 16/3.0, UHF 23/2.2) be overloaded in my location? Also, has anyone heard much about the Antennas Direct CPA-19 preamp (VHF 18.4/1.7, UHF 17.3/2.0)? Supposedly designed for the Clear Stream line of antennas, I don't see why you couldn't use it on a different model. Seems to have a real nice amount of amplification coupled with low noise.

I've pretty much decided on Belden 7915A RG6 tri-shield cable as it should be easier to run inside the house. I want to use compression fittings (PPC EX6XL). Any recommendations on a good compression tool and stripper/cutter? They just need to be good, not great, as they won't see a lot of use after the initial install. I've seen numerous dB loss specs for 2-way and 3-way splitters. Any particularly good ones people have experience with? I realize the best you can hope for with a 2-way is a 3.5dB loss (half the signal plus .5dB insertion loss). Any other tips or suggestions for putting this setup together?
The channels I want to receive are 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 22, 28 and 33. TVFool link: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8ecd5553aada8f . Thanks.

PS: Some oddities - my old Sony shower radio (TV/WEATHER/AM/FM) picks up FM93.3 on TV4, FM92.5 plus some other station on TV6, and on my upstairs corded phone you can hear AM770 playing lol:confused:

rdn

09-10-09, 10:59 AM

I picked up a DataShark compression tool at Home Depot for <$20 and am happy with it. I also got an Ideal stripper which works pretty well after I spent several minutes adjusting the blade positions.

Several years ago I lived near an AM station and had the same problem with phone interference. I bought a filter similar to this one (http://www.ky-filters.com/) and it cleared it up.

Moonus

09-10-09, 12:39 PM

Go ahead and get a preamp. It'll probably help. I haven't used the types you're contemplating, but I doubt you'll have overload.

Some preamps include different inputs for UHF and VHF (like the CM7777), which can allow you to have separate VHF and UHF antennas -- one pointed at the UHF and the easy to "reach" VHF stations in Seattle, the other at the more distant/difficult VHF station, which may be 13 for you. Though this may create a problem between channel 13 and channel 11? Though, really, all of the stations are pretty closely aligned for you. If you get a less directional antenna (DB2 or similar) you may be better off. Perhaps a better alternative in any event is a "jointenna" (discussed frequently on this site) for channel 13, which would let you have separate antennas for 13 and the major group in Seattle and then the one output would go to a preamp with one combined VHF/UHF input. In any event, if the preamp doesn't work, keep the box and return it. A lot of antenna installation is experimentation.

After a bit of rambling, the only solid bit of advice I have is to get coax terminators for unused cable runs. An unterminated length of coax (one not attached to a TV) coming off your splitter will cause all sorts of weird interference.

iamdanthaman

09-13-09, 09:38 PM

Any more info on the KIRO transmitter in the Olympia area? TVfool tells me that I am 1.3 miles from the transmitter, but is that just a planned location or what?

Jim in Seattle

09-14-09, 06:47 PM

Kelly From KOMO wrote:
I've noticed that pretty much on all the AVS OTA boards, that some destinations are reaching days or even weeks before anything new is posted. Only a year ago, posts, topics and replies were being added within minutes or hours of each other.

Could this mean that the DTV transition has gone better than expected and the majority of folks are basking in the quality of digital TV entertainment? Or have more become frustrated and just gone to ADS? (cable or satellite).
------------------------------------------------------
Kelly, Et al,
There is a lot of local interest in OTA but most people haven't heard of this board. Over the last six weeks I installed a system on the South Hill of Puyallup (Edgewood) and they get 31 channels except 5, 12 and the shopping channel.

I sold a small corner reflector to a couple who live in Shoreline - they just had their first baby and dropped their dish (or cable) in light of the new (expensive) family addition - they now get 33 free channels.

I sold a small Yagi to a young couple for their camper: they bought an 8" HDTV with digital tuner and I suggested they use a 16' tall telescopic fiberglass flagpole from Harbor Freight (really cheap) as a mast. I pointed them to TV FOOL.com and using their GPS and their fancy cell phone, they can display 'radar maps' based on wherever they camp. Pretty cool. They promised to stay in touch to let me know how well the setup works.

I finally tore down my old Ernst Hardware Seattlite antenna and rebuilt it as a cut-to-channel 9 Yagi, I replaced my collapsed telescopic steel mast and I finally have KCTS - woohoo! No luck getting 11 yet. Rats!

By the way, using the new mast I now have channel 5 (48) but unlike two months back during testing, I cannot get it when pointed at the QA tower. I get it by pointing into downtown, thru the side of the hill, and am probably catching a bounce off of a skyscraper. Whenever a seaplane takes off from Lake Union, I lose the signal -- 5,4,3,2,1 -- then, I hear the seaplane and the signal comes back!

So, now comes the fun part: I have determined the best heights for the four Yagis that will share this setup and the three UHF antennas will have proper seperation to avoid interaction: the channel 9 Yagi has to be on top and the 'first' UHF antenna will be about 2 feet down, both mounted in fixed positions on the main mast. Hopefully, there will be no significant interaction. The other two will be on a rotor, on a parallel mast that 'orbits' the primary mast. I plan to combine 9 with 12 (35) using a Jointenna. Then combine 4 and 7 (38 @ 48) with a splitter. No amplifiers to start with, direct to my A-B switch. If it works, I will try to split the signals to three rooms. I have my doubts there will be enough signal, so then come the amps. Does anyone have experience or recommendations of mast-mounted amps?
Jim

PS I forgot to mention I'm adding a weather station too. I ran into a chap who closed his business and he has a storage unit full of new ones for a really low cost. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list.

PPS The "How to build a UHF antenna forum" here is still very active.

DanKurts

09-15-09, 12:22 AM

I've noticed that pretty much on all the AVS OTA boards, that some destinations are reaching days or even weeks before anything new is posted. Only a year ago, posts, topics and replies were being added within minutes or hours of each other.

Could this mean that the DTV transition has gone better than expected and the majority of folks are basking in the quality of digital TV entertainment? Or have more become frustrated and just gone to ADS? (cable or satellite).

Kelly

Things have settled down some. August is usually a quiet time, anyway, with everyone on vacation and being outdoors. Gives me some time to finally clean out the van ! This year it started to pick up again early, though, with people wanting to get reception squared away, kids back in school, etc. Biggest thing lately has been people that were okay in the June transition, but, of course, lost 9-11-13. They just left it, and waited until now. It's been a challenge on those channels, with location and existing antenna types making normal fixes anything but routine. Ch13 is now oddly fussy at times when it was a slam dunk on the UHF. Not as predictable as I would've thought. Ch9 & 11 are bit easier.
One of my biggest surprises was how well the 4228 worked for 9-11-13. In the past I've never been fond of it, and the 4221 always worked as good if not better. Now it's kind of the reverse, with the 4221 VHF not doing well at all, unless real close to the towers. I'm swapping mine out for the 4228. What should be noted though, the 4228 is not very linear for VHF. The wave shape is always wierd. Usually it's within tuner tollerances, but it gets fussy about direction. Sometimes works better far off axis. UHF is far more forgiving on it. So if you want a single antenna solution, it might work for you, but be aware of taking the time to get good signal numbers. Try several postions or directions and try to find the best of the best. It will give you better results over the long run without having to re-tweak it later when the trees grow higher, etc. If you're upgrading a 4221, I've found you may need to do another location to get it all to work. I have about a 100 yards of trees before it's line of sight, and had to move the new location almost 15ft away. Same on some other installs.

Another oddity on ch13, even with a 10ft ch13 yagi, is not as directional, and not real clean, either. Reminds me of their old VHF analog signal. Directionality is just not what I would've expected. If you're planning on using one, it won't aim or react quite like what you think it should. Ch's 9-11 were far easier with a VHF yagi. And their VHF signals are going over hills a little better. Not great, but better than their previous UHF.
The only other observation is my fav small UHF yagi, the spendy Blonder Tongue BTYUHFBB, which I used for years for testing and surveys, pulls in VHF on the side pretty well ! Shouldn't, but it does. One of those "go figure".
I used it in many installs where it needed to be hidden, yet get good reception. Very good results for such a little guy. Can't recommend it for straight on VHF, though. Great build quality, all bolts and nuts being stainless, even the huge 2" clamp.

In any case, I still get a lot of calls. Sad thing for 9-11-13 is about 30-40% are just saying to heck with it, I get 4-5-7 okay.....

Or it could be everyone on the Forum is just waiting for their share of the Stimulus Package so they can upgrade.......

Okay, where's the munchies and libations, Leno is coming on.....

Dan

DanKurts

09-15-09, 12:31 AM

NeedMyTV

09-15-09, 04:45 AM

NeedMyTV
Use the CM7777 preamp. As Moonus mentioned, it has UHF and VHF inputs. Be sure to pop the preamp cover and flip the switch. It has huge headroom, on the order of 55db+, so you won't overload it. Beware, though, you may overload your tuner, which will look just as bad as no signal. I've used the similar CM7775 for years, and it can power a whole house, if you have enough antenna signal. It also has a real 2.0 noise figure, and it will put out a good 25db+ with 10 to 15 strong channels. Be sure to put the power supply in the attic, before all your splitters. Splitters between the two will short out the power.
Dan

CM7777? Really? I figured the CM7777 was complete overkill considering the downtown stations are just under 20 miles from me. I ended up ordering the AP-8700 late Sunday night, thinking it was a good compromise of gain and overload capacity. I know the trees in the area help block the signal strength, but by just how much I'm not sure. Since I had so few replies here I also posted my preamp q in the AVS HDTV Technical side. Only 1 reply there, and that person thought I should go with the HDP-269 due to the high overload capacity lol I guess everyone has their own opinions/experiences.

Hoping I can get some use out of the old rooftop antennas. If UHF is weak I might try adding a dedicated UHF antenna with a UVSJ. I think I could then also get rid of low VHF using a HLSJ. Wouldn't be very elegant, but might work. Anyone know when Winegard will be coming out with a 7-51 antenna?;) Guess I'll find out what works and what doesn't. I don't mind having to buy some other components if what I have doesn't work:D

On a different topic, was just checking my tvfool report (again). Pretty sure this was new - KUSE-LP on real channel 30. Wikipedia states:

As of September 30, 2008 KUSE-LP was confirmed to be broadcasting only a black screen and silent audio. It has been broadcasting an unmodulated carrier for several months.

The station ceased broadcasting on April 8, 2009 due to the economic difficulties that Equity has faced. [1]

KUSE was sold at auction to Mako Communications on April 16, 2009

It had been a shopping channel, then a religious channel. I wonder if it is active now? Time to go check. Thanks to those who replied.

McFly9000

09-16-09, 02:17 PM

Has anyone else noticed the audio on channel 11 for some programs seems tinny or hollow, almost like it is out of phase or something? I have noticed it the last couple weeks while watching a couple new prime time shows in HD.

As far as a general reception update, CH 13 is still dropping out at odd times. I upgraded my coax to RG-11 because of the 300 foot run and that has helped, but it is still not rock solid like it was before the digital VHF mess. I might play with the antenna height but I am also waiting to see if the leaves off the trees will make any difference. No problems with 9 or 11, or any other channels. CH 12 popped in the other night too, that was a surprise. Must have had some good atmospheric conditions... :)

Kermee

09-17-09, 05:29 AM

Has anyone else noticed the audio on channel 11 for some programs seems tinny or hollow, almost like it is out of phase or something? I have noticed it the last couple weeks while watching a couple new prime time shows in HD.

...

Yes. CW11 on Comcast ClearQAM exhibits the exact same behavior. I happened upon the "new" Melrose Place earlier in the week and the audio was horrible.

Cheers,
Kermee

Kermee

09-17-09, 06:14 AM

Hi Kermee, and welcome to OTA!

It appears you have a pretty good location for OTA reception with an outdoor antenna. I recommend a medium-gain VHF-UHF outdoor antenna mounted 30' above the ground if possible. I have some brand and installation suggestions on my website: http://wwwdtvrules.com in the blog section. A rotator is nice too, so you can peak for best signals, (possibly a reflection), depending on the station. The KCPQ-DT-Gold Mountain location is a good case for a rotator, along with the stations located on West Tiger Mt.

At that distance, I wouldn't recommend a preamp. This discussion is also in my blog, but I can't emphasize enough to use high-quality coaxial cable from someone other than Radio Shack. The RG6 sold at Lowes or Home Depot is fine. Don't bother with Monster Cable brand. MC is good quality cable, but WAY too expensive. Also make sure you only use splitters rated to 2Ghz. or more, and only use ones for the number of spiggots you'll need to split.

Good luck!

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for replying (I know my original post and your reply was back in July 2008)!

Now I'm *really* ready to try the OTA jump. I was wondering about the following:

Do you think an antenna like the Antennas Direct DB8 would allow me to pick up both the stations on Queen Anne + CW11 and the stations on West Tiger Mtn? (i.e. KHCV) without having to use a rotor? Then I could use a VHF antenna aimed for 9 & 13 and use a VHF/UHF combiner? Thoughts?

Thanks!

Cheers,
Kermee

P.S. Again, my cross streets are Stafford Way and 24th Dr SE in Bothell, 98012. I can probably get the antennas at about 35' AGL easily. Possibly 40' actually...

Kelly From KOMO

09-17-09, 08:34 AM

Kermee

09-17-09, 05:49 PM

Hi Kermee, Wow, that was a while back! Good thing you re-posted my original reply.

Actually being that far away, I don't think one of those little DB8 antennas would work adequately. They are really designed for more close-in reception.

As a good starting point, I recommend for those located 8 or more miles from the transmission sites, to try a good medium gain combination VHF/UHF antenna. Perhaps something in the 10-16 dB range. Many times with patience and slow, small incremental aiming of 1-2 degrees then pausing for the receiver to lock-on or do a re-scan, you can find a 'sweet spot' where you get the stations from Queen Anne, Capitol and West Tiger Mt. I'm not sure about also receiving KCPQ from Gold Mt. too though, as they are farther away from you and much further West. That being said, stranger things have happened.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the reply, Kelly!

The DB8 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html) shows a max gain of 15.8 dBi (I know, it's published specs; I'm sure the real specs are lower) and has a range of up to 70 miles from transmitters and a bandwidth of about 100 degrees. The offset between Queen Anne & West Tiger Mtn. from my location is about 55 degrees.

KCPQ-DT shows 2Edge on TVFool @ about 34 miles so you're right; I'm not going to hold my breath. But it looks like KCTS-DT should be fine.

Reason why I'd like to avoid a rotor is because I'm currently using HDHomeRun tuners with Comcast ClearQAM and MythTV. And it looks like "possibly" the days of unencrypted local-basic HD might be ending soon (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009860393_brier14.html). (I subscribe to the $12.50 & change/month limited basic from Comcast currently). Comcast currently has all of the multicast channels from KHCV on their system (unannounced) and I'd like to keep it if I go OTA. Everything else on Tiger Mtn. would be "gravy" at this point. ;)

I'm in Verizon FiOS territory and Verizon FiOS carries KHCV 44-1, but not -2 through -4; and I'm not even sure if it's unencrypted QAM on their system.

At anyrate, I'd like to have OTA as a backup plan if I get fed up with Comcast & Verizon ;)

Thanks, again!

Cheers,
Kermee

P.S. If anyone has done a Clear QAM scan on Verizon FiOS up in North Seattle/Snohomish Co., I'm curious to know which channels are available.

twostar

09-17-09, 07:25 PM

Kermee

09-17-09, 07:58 PM

I've got the DB4 and it's picking up the seattle stations about 11 miles away and KBTC at 28 miles and 60 deg south of the others. I've been very impressed with the DB4, pointing is very easy (yay wide angle!) and install was simple. Because of it's size it's easy to work with and get setup. I don't think a DB8 would be much harder.

For KCPQ i've got a small yagi pointed off in that direction and just join them with a UHV VHF joiner. With KCTS being so close I don't have to point an antenna that way explicity, the yagi gets it for me even with the antenna pointed off.

Awesome! Thanks for the "real world" results! I might give the DB8 a try unless Kelly says otherwise from my last post...

I'm looking at the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 antenna which has a 60" boom length and a rated 6.9 dB gain while the Y10-7-13 with a 120" boom length has a gain of 9.4 dB which is about another 2.5 dB.

From my spot, I'm 34 miles from KCPQ's tower (2Edge) and have LOS with KCTS at about 15 miles. However, there's about 37 degrees of separation between the two towers. Half power beamwidth is 44.5 degrees on the higher-gain Y10-7-13 (120") and 55.5 degrees on the smaller 60" Y5-7-13 VHF yagi, albeit a lower 6.9 dB gain. I'll just peak for KCPQ (if even possible) and then see what KCTS comes in at and go for a compromise. Judging from TVFool, KCTS is "green" so I'm sure I could poorly aim either of the VHF antennas and still get it to come in perfectly. Worse comes to worse, least I'll have a decent VHF antenna for KCTS ;)

BTW- Which UHF/VHF joiner did you use?

Thanks, again!

Cheers,
Kermee

twostar

09-17-09, 08:12 PM

I've got that AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Yagi. It was a smaller then I was expecting. I'm use to dealling with highly directional yagi's for Ham satellite com. Anyway, here's the details

KCTS is 9.0 miles at 278deg.
KCPQ is 32 miles at 264deg.

I'm roughly pointed 1/4 from KCPQ and 3/4 of the way from KCTS. I just put it up there to start and didn't even have to walk it around. It worked so I tightened all the fasteners and left it.

Both antenna's (Y5-7-13 and DB4) are on the same 6' mast on my roof. I run them through 2' of coax and then join them on the mast with a Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna (UVSJ). Ordered the joiner and the yagi from solid signal after i found myself with insufficient VHF reception with the signal switch.

The coax then runs down about 20-30ft and into a splitter for the two tuners in my myth box. I don't even have the TV's internal tuner hooked up anymore. I figure it saves me a little margin and I run all the media off the dvr anyway.

I may have picked up some water with the recent storms. channel 7 has gotten flakey. This weekend I will go and make sure it's not just antenna misalignment with the winds. My connectors are just wrapped with electrical tape as a quick seal against water. Need to go rework the connectors with waterproof ones and then seal them against water before the winter really sets in. If you can do it right the first time I highly suggest sealing the whole system as best you can.

Moonus

09-18-09, 06:25 PM

Something to be said for calling a pro, like Dan Kurtis (frequently found here). He can try you out on a DB8 or similar and/or a yagi and would get connections water tight, a properly installed ground, etc.

I've never used a professional (sorry Dan), but could have saved considerable time an aggravation if I had. I'm more-or-less past helping now.

x43x

09-18-09, 07:15 PM

DanKurts

09-19-09, 01:49 AM

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for replying (I know my original post and your reply was back in July 2008)!

Now I'm *really* ready to try the OTA jump. I was wondering about the following:

Do you think an antenna like the Antennas Direct DB8 would allow me to pick up both the stations on Queen Anne + CW11 and the stations on West Tiger Mtn? (i.e. KHCV) without having to use a rotor? Then I could use a VHF antenna aimed for 9 & 13 and use a VHF/UHF combiner? Thoughts?

Thanks!

Cheers,
Kermee

P.S. Again, my cross streets are Stafford Way and 24th Dr SE in Bothell, 98012. I can probably get the antennas at about 35' AGL easily. Possibly 40' actually...

Kermee
I wouldn't use the 8 bay style DB8 or 4228 for what you're trying to do. It's not as wide on reception as you think. And the gain numbers they claim, compared to a DB4 or 4221, are generous. Gain is NOT your main concern. Getting a clean, level waveshape, where you're located, is going to be more important. Your location is good, but will get tricky when trying to go from Tiger to Gold mountains. The 4221, my choice over the DB series of antenna's, is far wider the 4228. Your choice for the VHF yagi is good. You don't really need the extra length for gain, but it will help you get past the hill north of Juanita. Ch's 9-11-13 are going right along the side of it, and it's tougher than it looks, being covered in tall trees. Ch13 should not be a big problem, and you'll find pointing the VHF antenna there will probably make up for the slight difference in gain over the distance. I would bet the Tiger channels will come in fine. I would try the 4221 somewhere between QA hill and Tiger. Exact aiming is not that critical. Just see what your tuners tell you.
Also, going up that high above ground is not needed. As long as you're 4 or 5 ft away from the roof, chimney or anything else, you should be fine. If using one mast, make sure the two antennas are at least 3ft apart, 5ft would be better. For better strength and wind considerations, you might want to just use two masts and just separate them a bit, again making sure neither blocks the others view, and they're at least 5ft apart, horizontally.
For aiming, you might also want to do the VHF and UHF separately, and run them through the combiner with the unused port (VHF or UHF) terminated. It will bring into play all the possible "gotcha" variables, so you can work around them, and also show you if you have any combined issues with both connected. The Pico or Tru Spec UVSJ combiner, same thing, is a good one and has adequate rejection specs for your location.

Keep us informed on your results!
Dan

Kermee

09-19-09, 02:06 AM

Kermee
I wouldn't use the 8 bay style DB8 or 4228 for what you're trying to do. It's not as wide on reception as you think. And the gain numbers they claim, compared to a DB4 or 4221, are generous. Gain is NOT your main concern. Getting a clean, level waveshape, where you're located, is going to be more important. Your location is good, but will get tricky when trying to go from Tiger to Gold mountains. The 4221, my choice over the DB series of antenna's, is far wider the 4228. Your choice for the VHF yagi is good. You don't really need the extra length for gain, but it will help you get past the hill north of Juanita. Ch's 9-11-13 are going right along the side of it, and it's tougher than it looks, being covered in tall trees. Ch13 should not be a big problem, and you'll find pointing the VHF antenna there will probably make up for the slight difference in gain over the distance. I would bet the Tiger channels will come in fine. I would try the 4221 somewhere between QA hill and Tiger. Exact aiming is not that critical. Just see what your tuners tell you.
Also, going up that high above ground is not needed. As long as you're 4 or 5 ft away from the roof, chimney or anything else, you should be fine. If using one mast, make sure the two antennas are at least 3ft apart, 5ft would be better. For better strength and wind considerations, you might want to just use two masts and just separate them a bit, again making sure neither blocks the others view, and they're at least 5ft apart, horizontally.
For aiming, you might also want to do the VHF and UHF separately, and run them through the combiner with the unused port (VHF or UHF) terminated. It will bring into play all the possible "gotcha" variables, so you can work around them, and also show you if you have any combined issues with both connected. The Pico or Tru Spec UVSJ combiner, same thing, is a good one and has adequate rejection specs for your location.

Keep us informed on your results!
Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the great information! Your tip about doing VHF and UHF separately while still connected through a combiner is a great idea!

As for the 4221 recommendation, since it's near impossible to get the "original" 4221 these days, is it safe to assume it's okay to use the newer 4221-HD? Also, probably don't think I need a pre-amp, correct? From the UVSJ, probably about 15'-20' RG6 feed straight into a CM-3418 (rebadged PCT-MA2-8P) which will then feed into HDHomeRun's.

Cheers,
Kermee

P.S. I wasn't going to worry about it now, but I have an FM-only yagi antenna which is currently mounted in my attic for my HD Radios. Probably easier just to leave that completely separated from my VHF/UHF, correct?

Kermee

09-19-09, 03:59 AM

Oooh. One more additional question:

What are my options at 140th Pl SE & 64th Dr SE in Snohomish, 98296? It's a bit further up north... Thanks!

Cheers,
Kermee

Kermee

09-19-09, 04:53 AM

UPDATE: I must be in some sweet spot here in Bothell because I'm using an OLD pair of VHF rabbit ears and a UHF loop in the second story of my home, inside, pointed out due south on a southern window without really aiming on my HDHomeRun in and I'm seeing these results:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3579/uhf39kiroloopbothell.png

KIRO - UHF 39 - 7.1

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5636/vhf9kctsrabbitearsbothe.png

KCTS - VHF 9 - 9.1

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/879/vhf13kcpqrabbitearsboth.png

KCPQ - VHF 13 - 13.1

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3924/vhf11kstwrabbitearsboth.png

KSTW - VHF 11 - 11.1

I can only imagine how solid the signal quality would be if I put up decent VHF & UHF antennas up the tip of my roof...

Cheers,
Kermee

rdn

09-19-09, 05:22 AM

22-2 is now up as of noon today. This is a 16x9 SD broadcast of KCPQ. People who have trouble viewing KCPQ's signal OTA from Gold Mtn can now watch the stream from Capitol Hill. It is not HD though, but better than nothing.

Great! I found that EyeTV (which I use on my Mac with my HDHomeRun) can mirror 13.1 to 22.2 in its program guide (from TitanTV).

They appear to be running a higher bitrate than the other secondary channels.

allen98311

09-19-09, 06:47 AM

Great! I found that EyeTV (which I use on my Mac with my HDHomeRun) can mirror 13.1 to 22.2 in its program guide (from TitanTV).

They appear to be running a higher bitrate than the other secondary channels.

22.2 is running at about 5.8 Mbps (22.1 is 10.2 Mbps). 22.2 is also Dolby 5.1.
The highest is 5.2 at about 7.7 Mbps (5.1 is 10.3 Mbps).
Here are the other channels:
7.2 is 3.7 Mbps, 7.1 12.2 Mbps.
4.2 is 3.5 Mbps, 4.1 11.2 Mbps.
13.2 is 2.1 Mbps, 13.1 14.3 Mbps

I got these numbers last night.

allen98311

09-19-09, 07:06 AM

My DTVPal DVR found new subchannels on channel 44.

44.1 KPST (I saw a slide between commercials the other day that said KPST, I cannot find these call letters on the FCC web site.) (I attached a picture)
44.2 Azteca
44.3 AAT TV
44.4 MBC D
44.5 BIZ TV (Web Site (http://www.biztelevision.com/))
44.6 New (Displaying bars)

I also noticed that they have the correct time set now. Still no PSIP or TVGOS guide data.

Update: TitanTV and TVGuide has 44.1 listed as KPST-DT, I guess they changed their call letters.

Trip in VA

09-19-09, 09:19 AM

I did some digging at the FCC site and they requested KPST as a new call sign on August 22, but it has yet to show up in the FCC database.

- Trip

rdvegas

09-19-09, 10:40 AM

My DTVPal DVR found new subchannels on channel 44.

44.1 KPST (I saw a slide between commercials the other day that said KPST, I cannot find these call letters on the FCC web site.) (I attached a picture)
44.2 Azteca
44.3 AAT TV
44.4 MBC D
44.5 BIZ TV (Web Site (http://www.biztelevision.com/))
44.6 New (Displaying bars)

If anyone can grab some extended recordings of 44.1 KPST, send me a private message. Thanks.

rdn

09-19-09, 10:56 AM

22.2 is running at about 5.8 Mbps (22.1 is 10.2 Mbps). 22.2 is also Dolby 5.1.
The highest is 5.2 at about 7.7 Mbps (5.1 is 10.3 Mbps).
Here are the other channels:
7.2 is 3.7 Mbps, 7.1 12.2 Mbps.
4.2 is 3.5 Mbps, 4.1 11.2 Mbps.
13.2 is 2.1 Mbps, 13.1 14.3 Mbps

I got these numbers last night.

When I checked 5.2 earlier I recall it was lower than 22.2, but it is showing 7.8 Mbps here now :confused:

9.2 and 9.3 are around 2.7 Mbps, 9.1 is 11.0

The numbers all bounce around somewhat (variable bit rate encoding?)

Trip in VA

09-19-09, 11:03 AM

Many stations with newer encoders do statistical multiplexing that varies bitrates.

- Trip

allen98311

09-19-09, 04:01 PM

I was watching KBTC, and I saw a slide that said "Starting November 1, KBTC will be available in true High Definition."

Budget_HT

09-19-09, 07:37 PM

I'm also using OTA as my primary TV source. I just don't want to have so many TV channels available all the time. I know that basic cable is an option for fewer channels, but there's a slippery slope if I ever saw one and basic cable doesn't include some of the OTA channels (and now here I'm discussing MORE channels, I know). We have a cable modem, but I just don't want to pay money to have so many TV channels around all the time.

While there was a good bit of complaining about it in my house, the transition really wasn't too hard, though there have been a few disappointments (like why is one tuner/converter box considerably more sensitive than another?) and set-backs (like the delay in the transition which postponed a couple stations in their move to VHF). The complaining has subsided, for now ;-)

But I can imagine that a lot of people just picked up and moved to cable/satellite entirely. I don't know anyone else in my circle of friends who uses OTA.
You probably already know this, but just in case you don't ...

With your Comcast cable modem service, if you add any version of cable TV service, you get a $10 discount for having both. That makes Limited Basic Cable actual cost somewhere between $3 and $7 dollars, depending on where you live. We pay $16 - $10 = $6 here in King County, east of Renton, so we can have NWCN which is not available from any other source (satellite or OTA).

litzdog911

09-20-09, 01:43 AM

Has anyone else noticed the audio on channel 11 for some programs seems tinny or hollow, almost like it is out of phase or something? I have noticed it the last couple weeks while watching a couple new prime time shows in HD....

Same problem on DirecTV and off-air reception. Must be a problem with KSTW's DD5.1 audio. Almost sounds like one or more channels are out-of-phase.

Jim in Seattle

09-20-09, 02:02 AM

NeedMyTV

09-20-09, 04:42 AM

Listers:
Has anyone else noticed KIRO 7.2's audio and video are quite often not synchronized? This afternoon, Dragnet was on and the audio was at least a half second ahead of the video.

I noticed the same thing on 7.2 Friday night when I was channel surfing. I figured it was because I wasn't getting very good reception (that's been a problem on channel 7 the last couple of weeks). The audio/video being out of sync reminds me of my ZAT 970-A CECB. When I'd have fluctuations in signal it would get out of sync and stay that way until I tuned to a different channel and back lol

Trip in VA

09-20-09, 08:57 AM

RTV's having audio sync problems across the country. Not KIRO's fault.

- Trip

Kelly From KOMO

09-20-09, 09:17 AM

Listers:
Has anyone else noticed KIRO 7.2's audio and video are quite often not synchronized? This afternoon, Dragnet was on and the audio was at least a half second ahead of the video. Today, I was pointing at the Silverdale translator, but in the past when I have noticed this, I switched antennas and the same delay is also coming from their main QA Hill transmitter.

Secondly (in case a KIRO employee is listening) why does RTN repeat the same shows so often? Example: Rockford files. Early shows including the pilot episode are missing and later shows are missing. It seems like they have rights to only one season of the show. The same for other shows.
Jim

PS I used to work for KIRO-AM 710 and I know they could do better ...

A couple comments from me on this one, as it's a rather sensitive subject that seems to take on a life of it's own with folks that aren't privy to what goes on behind the scenes..

Trip is correct, that chances are that any lip sync issues are generated at the network level, not at a local station. When I was at KOMO, I used to dread coming in on Monday mornings and see all the upset E-mails from viewers who were watching the Saturday evening movie from ABC in 5.1 surround, with the lip sync was out slightly. ABC used to mess around with their audio settings Saturday night, which sometimes required a satellite receiver re-boot on our end. Unfortunately ABC didn't see the need to notify anyone at the local stations that some changes were made in the 5.1 encoding scheme, and we got caught taking the flack.

Not to make excuses for KIRO-TV, but I'm willing to bet that someone from KIRO probably notified RTV that lip sync was out, but there may have been nobody at the RTV NOC who was qualified to correct it at the time. I know the Director of Engineering at RTV and they're all about automating the process and minimizing operational expenses.

And finally Jim; with all due respect, the technical operations of AM radio broadcasting, has little or no correlation on a technical level with DTV.

Trip in VA

09-20-09, 09:22 AM

Actually, RTV's having so many problems that I know of at least one affiliate that's dropping it at the end of the month because it's making the station look bad and losing them money.

- Trip

Jim in Seattle

09-20-09, 10:00 PM

.
Not to make excuses for KIRO-TV, but I'm willing to bet that someone from KIRO probably notified RTV that lip sync was out, but there may have been nobody at the RTV NOC who was qualified to correct it at the time. I know the Director of Engineering at RTV and they're all about automating the process and minimizing operational expenses.

And finally Jim; with all due respect, the technical operations of AM radio broadcasting, has little or no correlation on a technical level with DTV.

Kelly,
That's for sure. When I worked there, KSEA FM had been recently seperated from the AM engineering department and TV was its own section. The only common things between them was the news department and dedicated professionals striving for the best. If this is an RTN issue, I hope they resolve it. Its good to know its not on my end.
Jim

Kelly From KOMO

09-20-09, 10:08 PM

Actually, RTV's having so many problems that I know of at least one affiliate that's dropping it at the end of the month because it's making the station look bad and losing them money.

- Trip
Wow, you mean to tell me that someone is actually breaking even or making money somewhere with a "dot 2" channel? Geez, that's news to me!

Trip in VA

09-20-09, 10:12 PM

It's not that, it's that even the ads they do sell, apparently RTV can't prove they aired. Advertiser(s) are not happy.

- Trip

Kermee

09-20-09, 11:27 PM

Oooh. One more additional question:

What are my options at 140th Pl SE & 64th Dr SE in Snohomish, 98296? It's a bit further up north... Thanks!

Cheers,
Kermee

Anyone have any suggestions for me?

...

I can only imagine how solid the signal quality would be if I put up decent VHF & UHF antennas up the tip of my roof...

Cheers,
Kermee

On a whim while I wait for my Channel Master 4221HD's to come in, I decided to pick up a Channel Master 4220MHD from Fry's just to play with. I have it mounted on a 5' mast (erected between two pieces of furniture) inside my house on the second floor of my home in a southern-facing room. It's aimed straight through the outside wall facing virtually due south.

I made the following "hacks (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=104837)", (i.e. removed all the pretty plastics) minus the chopping the reflector grid down to 20" from 24", which would of reduced the VHF-Hi (you'll see why in a second).

The only channel I can't seem to get with the 2-bay bowtie is Channel 13, which makes sense. But oddly enough on my HDHomeRun, I get the following VHF-Hi signals (Note: Symbol Quality is of course, 100%):

KCTSDT 9 (VHF 9)
* Signal Strength: 84%
* Signal Quality: 82%

KSTWDT 11 (VHF 11)
* Signal Strength: 83%
* Signal Quality: 80%

That's pretty amazing. I have a feeling if I mounted this little 2-bay up on top of the roof instead of inside my office aimed through an outside wall, I could probably pick up KCPQDT 13 pretty easily.

KHCVDT (UHF 44) comes in at SS 57% and SQ 72% which I couldn't even pull a signal the simple UHF loop before. All other "important" channels come in at 90%+ on the SS and 100% on the SQ. ... Again, all of this with the CM4220MHD aimed through my home's outside wall.

I'm thinking when my CM4221HD comes in, I'll "hack" it to the older CM-4221 but leave the reflector grid at 24" instead of the older version's 20". It might give me enough VHF-Hi performance since it looks like I don't need it to be more "multi-directional" that the 20" reflector grid would give me at a loss of forward gain. ... I may not need a dedicated VHF antenna at all, possibly, once I get the CM4221HD mounted on top of my roof. Although I was tempted to go ahead and install the CM4220MHD on top of the roof, I'd like the extra gain of two "stacked" 4220MHD's (the CM4221HD) when the weather isn't as nice and pretty as it was today (i.e. rain fade, etc.)

Thanks for everyone's help! Hopefully someone can check on my request for ideas on my Snohomish location up above!

Cheers,
Kermee

P.S. This is what 44.6 shows right now... Wonder what it'll be... + 44.1 now says it's "KPST"...

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8028/kpst446.png

rdn

09-21-09, 11:41 AM

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8028/kpst446.png

What software are you running with your HDHomeRun?

Kermee

09-21-09, 05:27 PM

What software are you running with your HDHomeRun?

I use the provided software from SiliconDust for "peaking" OTA stuff, but when they're in "duty" mode, I'm using MythTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOti7JhBxXE&fmt=22

Go around to the 5m14s mark and you can see it in action. My HDHomeRun's are still connected to Comcast for ClearQAM duty right now.

Cheers,
Kermee

rdn

09-21-09, 08:47 PM

I use the provided software from SiliconDust for "peaking" OTA stuff, but when they're in "duty" mode, I'm using MythTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOti7JhBxXE&fmt=22

Go around to the 5m14s mark and you can see it in action. My HDHomeRun's are still connected to Comcast for ClearQAM duty right now.

Cheers,
Kermee

I guess they either rewrote it since I bought mine or I didn't check out all the features. I'll check their website and download the latest. I tried both an old version of MythTV and Windows Media Center and wasn't impressed with either one but it works great with EyeTV on my Mac.

finlay648

09-22-09, 03:16 PM

Jim in Seattle

09-22-09, 06:13 PM

I've had some problems with KOMO 4 the last few days and last night I had lots of drop outs while watching Castle. Are they still working on their antenna? Has anyone else benn experiencing problems? 5 and 7 are fine.

Finlay,
I ride past the channels 4 and 5 towers at least once a week (I went by today) and there is no visual evidence either station has been doing any antenna work, with the exception of some work on an antenna for a different service I reported on earlier this summer (oops, its now Autumn).
Jim

rdn

09-22-09, 10:51 PM

I've had some problems with KOMO 4 the last few days and last night I had lots of drop outs while watching Castle. Are they still working on their antenna? Has anyone else benn experiencing problems? 5 and 7 are fine.

I wish they were. The antenna is down on the side of the tower and the signal level is much lower to the west (somebody posted a link to the plot a while back). Kelly mentioned that KOMO was considering replacing the old VHF antenna at the top of the tower with one for UHF. Hopefully that will happen before long.

DanKurts

09-23-09, 02:28 AM

Anyone have any suggestions for me?

On a whim while I wait for my Channel Master 4221HD's to come in, I decided to pick up a Channel Master 4220MHD from Fry's just to play with. I have it mounted on a 5' mast (erected between two pieces of furniture) inside my house on the second floor of my home in a southern-facing room. It's aimed straight through the outside wall facing virtually due south.

I made the following "hacks (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=104837)", (i.e. removed all the pretty plastics) minus the chopping the reflector grid down to 20" from 24", which would of reduced the VHF-Hi (you'll see why in a second).

The only channel I can't seem to get with the 2-bay bowtie is Channel 13, which makes sense. But oddly enough on my HDHomeRun, I get the following VHF-Hi signals (Note: Symbol Quality is of course, 100%):

KCTSDT 9 (VHF 9)
* Signal Strength: 84%
* Signal Quality: 82%

KSTWDT 11 (VHF 11)
* Signal Strength: 83%
* Signal Quality: 80%

That's pretty amazing. I have a feeling if I mounted this little 2-bay up on top of the roof instead of inside my office aimed through an outside wall, I could probably pick up KCPQDT 13 pretty easily.

KHCVDT (UHF 44) comes in at SS 57% and SQ 72% which I couldn't even pull a signal the simple UHF loop before. All other "important" channels come in at 90%+ on the SS and 100% on the SQ. ... Again, all of this with the CM4220MHD aimed through my home's outside wall.

I'm thinking when my CM4221HD comes in, I'll "hack" it to the older CM-4221 but leave the reflector grid at 24" instead of the older version's 20". It might give me enough VHF-Hi performance since it looks like I don't need it to be more "multi-directional" that the 20" reflector grid would give me at a loss of forward gain. ... I may not need a dedicated VHF antenna at all, possibly, once I get the CM4221HD mounted on top of my roof. Although I was tempted to go ahead and install the CM4220MHD on top of the roof, I'd like the extra gain of two "stacked" 4220MHD's (the CM4221HD) when the weather isn't as nice and pretty as it was today (i.e. rain fade, etc.)

Thanks for everyone's help! Hopefully someone can check on my request for ideas on my Snohomish location up above!

Cheers,
Kermee

P.S. This is what 44.6 shows right now... Wonder what it'll be... + 44.1 now says it's "KPST"...

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8028/kpst446.png

Kermee
You're in a high area, roughly 430ft elevation, with only a small hill about half mile SW of you. Obviously it's not bothering you too much. Once past that, you're home free.
I would try the 4221 first, before modifying it. The plastic covers removal they mentioned aren't bothering the the signal. take it or leave it. Shortening the reflector might help in you reception width, which you need. I would then try the 4221 and see what happens. Pulling out the connector bars to get away from the boom might help, hard to tell how much, but the rivets they use are not the strongest, and you could loosen one, causing faster corrosion down the road and might hurt the performance. If you do try it, use something else to take the strain away from the element connectors. Maybe two large vise grips, one to hold and one to bend.
Again, try the antenna first. It might surprise you.
Definitely keep the FM separate. I haven't seen any problems with HD like we used to get in analog, but it's always better to keep noise and problems out, and specially since you have a dedicated run. FM works with far lower levels and modern tuners have higher sensitivity, so amplifiers are rarely needed when you have an outdoor antenna.

Let us know what happens.

Dan

Kermee

09-24-09, 08:05 PM

Kermee
You're in a high area, roughly 430ft elevation, with only a small hill about half mile SW of you. Obviously it's not bothering you too much. Once past that, you're home free.
I would try the 4221 first, before modifying it. The plastic covers removal they mentioned aren't bothering the the signal. take it or leave it. Shortening the reflector might help in you reception width, which you need. I would then try the 4221 and see what happens. Pulling out the connector bars to get away from the boom might help, hard to tell how much, but the rivets they use are not the strongest, and you could loosen one, causing faster corrosion down the road and might hurt the performance. If you do try it, use something else to take the strain away from the element connectors. Maybe two large vise grips, one to hold and one to bend.
Again, try the antenna first. It might surprise you.
Definitely keep the FM separate. I haven't seen any problems with HD like we used to get in analog, but it's always better to keep noise and problems out, and specially since you have a dedicated run. FM works with far lower levels and modern tuners have higher sensitivity, so amplifiers are rarely needed when you have an outdoor antenna.

Let us know what happens.

Dan

Thanks, Dan.

I've gone ahead and ordered everything. Just waiting for it to all come in. I'll keep the FM antenna separate (it's a Winegard HD-6000 Prostar FM Yagi) and I may just leave it in the attic on its own coax run since it's working for all of the HDRadio channels in the area.

I ordered two of the CM4221HD's, one for my home and one for a home in Snohomish, WA... We'll see if it's strong enough to pull in channels from there. I also ordered a Antennacraft Y10-7-13 for the Snohomish location also for 9/11/13 and I ordered a Y5-7-13 for my home since it only added like a dollar to the UPS Shipping charges and it's only $23 USD without taxes. If I don't need it in the end, I'll just put it up on Craigslist for cheap. I'm going to put a 10' mast up on the Snohomish home on a eave mount on the side of the house/roof (two-story). That should give me an AGL at the top of about 30'-35'.

As for my home, I've got a bunch of old 18" satellite wall-mounts that I'll try to use first. If not, I'll just move to a tripod + 5' mast for mounts.

I'll keep everyone posted once the parts come in. Now I just need to hunt down a very long ladder from Lowes or Home Depot. ... I've been meaning to buy one. ;) Once the OTA stuff is setup, I've been eyeing a Ku-band FTA 39" satellite dish setup on a motor up on the roof... just for fun!

Thanks again, Dan and everyone for the help!

Cheers,
Kermee

robglasser

09-28-09, 12:38 PM

Anyone else notice an OTA outage on KOMO last night from about 9:15pm till shortly before 10:00pm?

My wife was trying to watch Desperate Housewives and both of the DVRs I have a timer setup on lost OTA signal about 15 minutes in and didn't recover until 4 minutes left in the show.

Trying to figure out if it's my equipment or an issue with KOMO.

Thanks

Rob

finlay648

09-28-09, 01:26 PM

robglasser

09-28-09, 02:00 PM

I also had problems with KOMO (and KCTS) last night but only lost a couple of minutes on KOMO and 10m on KCTS. Atmospheric conditions?

Weird, I wonder why I lost 40 minutes of programming then, on 2 different receivers. Must been some issues with the Dish receiver recovering from OTA loss while recording.

Thanks

Kermee

09-28-09, 07:19 PM

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_det.pl?Facility_id=49264

Looks like KHCV is now officially KPST. KPST shows a "begin" date of today (09/28/2009) in the FCC database.

Cheers,
Kermee

marykir

09-28-09, 09:41 PM

Anyone else notice an OTA outage on KOMO last night from about 9:15pm till shortly before 10:00pm?
Don't know if there's any correlation, but the power went out right around that time all over Queen Anne.

haydeecm

09-29-09, 10:45 AM

My OTA DVR recorded both Desperate Housewives (KOMO 9pm) and Brothers and Sisters(KOMO 10pm) and I did not have any issues. I am in Kirkland.

robglasser

09-29-09, 10:58 AM

Weird, I wonder why I lost 40 minutes of programming then, on 2 different receivers. Must been some issues with the Dish receiver recovering from OTA loss while recording.

Thanks

So after rebooting my receiver the event now only has a couple of minutes of OTA outage, inline with what others experienced. Looks like it was a combination of the outage and a bug in the receiver.

Thanks

Rob

Myron

09-29-09, 08:17 PM

The power outage on Queen Anne shut down the KOMO-DT transmitter. As we march backward with technology, the output of the transmitter is via tubes. A power interruption triggers a soft restart that is of the same duration as the outage. In this case, the transmitter did not return to full power until there was manual intervention. So, outlying areas may have suffered from lower power overnight. Dish & Direct TV pick up the signal off air from the Columbia tower. They should have only have had a short-duration outage.

Myron

09-29-09, 08:32 PM

I wish they were. The antenna is down on the side of the tower and the signal level is much lower to the west (somebody posted a link to the plot a while back). Kelly mentioned that KOMO was considering replacing the old VHF antenna at the top of the tower with one for UHF. Hopefully that will happen before long.
It all takes time. KOMO does intend to replace their old analog antenna on top of their tower with a new digital one. Structural engineers have climbed all over the tower and made recommendations for the change. The permitting process has been started. The antenna has been ordered from the manufacturer. It will have an eliptical radiating pattern (a percentage of the power will be vertically radiated) and will be omni-directiona (equal radiation in all directions from the tower). Look for it all to come together in the Spring.

Myron

09-29-09, 08:42 PM

I'm still using OTA as my primary TV source. Internet downloads and services are a secondary. I've actually had very good luck with getting OTA up and running. Took a little bit of work but now it's pretty reliable, well mostly.

I came back from the long weekend to find KIRO not locking in. I still receive the rest of the stations good and strong. Has KIRO done something to their signal recently?
KIRO-TV took down their top-mounted analog, obsolete antenna and extended their tower elements so the tower's beacon light is at the original height (or so it appears). They then moved their side-mounted digital antenna up the tower, mounting it on the new structure. Its still a side-mounted antenna, omni-directional (cardioid pattern) with a null to the NNW, but now its about 80-feet higher up. This appears to be all they intend to do to improve digital transmission from Queen Anne.

rdn

09-30-09, 10:34 AM

It all takes time. KOMO does intend to replace their old analog antenna on top of their tower with a new digital one. Structural engineers have climbed all over the tower and made recommendations for the change. The permitting process has been started. The antenna has been ordered from the manufacturer. It will have an eliptical radiating pattern (a percentage of the power will be vertically radiated) and will be omni-directiona (equal radiation in all directions from the tower). Look for it all to come together in the Spring.

That's great news. I used to watch the 11 a.m. news on KOMO but they have moved that to channel 4.2, which Directv doesn't carry so it will be nice to be able to receive that channel. The other Queen Anne channels come it just fine here and if it weren't for the trees I could probably see the tower from my roof, so I expect their new antenna will make a big difference.

organikeith

09-30-09, 06:06 PM

Kermee

09-30-09, 06:09 PM

organikeith,

Someone with more knowledge would be able to chime in here, but just off to top of my "novice" head here... Would you be open to a separate VHF-only antenna to pull in 9-11-13 and "join" it with your existing 4221? It might be the cheapest/easiest way to do it. Having that option open might give the "Pros" here some more options they'd be able to suggest... Good luck!

Cheers,
Kermee

organikeith

09-30-09, 06:26 PM

Thanks Kermee,
I would also be open to that as well.. but 1st choice would be to replace the 4221 for another.

Best,
organikeith

Jim in Seattle

09-30-09, 06:37 PM

KIRO-TV took down their top-mounted analog, obsolete antenna and extended their tower elements so the tower's beacon light is at the original height (or so it appears). They then moved their side-mounted digital antenna up the tower, mounting it on the new structure. Its still a side-mounted antenna, omni-directional (cardioid pattern) with a null to the NNW, but now its about 80-feet higher up. This appears to be all they intend to do to improve digital transmission from Queen Anne.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Myron, et al:
I posted several batches of photos of the two-week long KIRO antenna changeout, earlier on this forum. They can be viewed on Page 267 (#8003, 8004), Page 268 (#8033) and Page 269 (#8045). I talked with the owner of the Company (from the Mount Pilchuck area) doing the job and they have submitted a bid to do the KOMO 4 tower. They are currently working on the Sutro Tower array in San Francisco.
Jim

KR7L

09-30-09, 07:55 PM

Jim in Seattle

10-01-09, 01:28 AM

organikeith wrote:
Hi folks, I was wondering if you might be able to help me, I used to be able to pick up FOX OTA with my CM 4221, but since they switched to high VHF (13) I no longer get reception.
------------------------------------------------------------
organikeith,

About two months ago I setup an antenna "array" in Edgewood for a customer and I was surprised the Capitol Hill VHF channels were not viable using a CM 4221 about 15 feet above their roof level. I added a commercially built ten-bar "high-band VHF" Yagi (most likely cut to Channel 9) that I had installed at the same jobsight fifteen+ (?) years ago, without using a JoinTenna - I simply used a 2-way splitter (second test). Bingo! Regarding the Channel 13s (also VHF) the CM-4221 had it locked-solid from the start on the 4221.

No pre-amps or a V/UHF combiner was necessary on this job (I had a CM combiner ready to try). They now have 30-plus channels and are absolutely thrilled. Channel 5s (now 48) are the only ones missing and I am currently building a specifically designed Yagi to add to their system, using aluminum tubing sections from the condenser of an old refrigerator I found in their back yard scrap pile. When I try it, I'll first test without a V/UHF combiner and if necessary I'll add one. 'Stay tuned' for updated results. ;)

I suggest you add a 'high-band' VHF Yagi to your setup, first using a splitter and if that doesn't work, try a "Jointenna". Of course, all the NEW rules repeated here apply: RG-6 Coax, not RG-59 and sealed (both for water and RF) connectors/fittings.
Jim

organikeith

10-01-09, 12:35 PM

Thanks Jim and K7RL,
The mod looks fun, I have an old school 4221 though.
After looking through this thread, it appears a number of folks have had the same problem I have with 9, 11 and 13. I have a cm-7777 amp, so if I do get the high band VHF yagi, I would be plugging it in to that.....flipping the switch inside for separate VHF UHF inputs.

Any other suggestions/experience will be greatly appreciated to those that lurk here!
organikeith

organikeith

10-01-09, 12:51 PM

Also, for the high band yagi, should I mount above or below the 4221?
My guess is below..

finlay648

10-01-09, 01:51 PM

Jim in Seattle

10-01-09, 04:26 PM

Also, for the high band yagi, should I mount above or below the 4221?
My guess is below..
-----------------------------------
organikeith,
At the Edgewood site I installed the Yagi below the CM-4221 on the same mast and it proved to be adequate. I spaced the antennas about six feet apart to avoid interaction between the two.
Jim

pete.d

10-01-09, 06:33 PM

Having grown up in the age of over-the-air TV, pre-cable-TV, I'm not exactly new to the idea of getting TV signals through an antenna. But I'm running into an issue that seems odd to me.

I live on Rose Hill, within the Kirkland city limits. According to the TVFool reception maps, KING TV should be one of the better channels. But for some reason, I can barely receive it. The tuner (a DVico HD tuner hooked to a Windows Media Center PC via USB) can very briefly lock in on the signal every now and then, but for the most part it's just not receivable. It's completely unwatchable, even when it occasionally gets enough data to show something.

The reason it seems odd to me is that KONG, which is lower power, transmitted from an antenna a little farther away and 50m lower, comes in much better.

I also can receive KOMO, KIRO, KCTS, and KMYQ (whatever that is) just fine. Even KSTW, which while having a slightly higher transmission tower, is a fraction the power, comes in fine.

Heck, for that matter, KCPQ all the way out in Bremerton, comes in "as well as" KING (i.e. I can't watch it, but there's enough of a signal to know the channel's there).

I've tested three different antennas: the dinky VHF-style antenna that came with the tuner, a cheap Radio Shack VHF/UHF combo antenna, and an 8-bay, mast-mount UHF antenna (unmounted though...sitting in my living room for testing purposes).

Each antenna provides about the improvement in signal I'd expect for most of the channels. But even the huge mast-mount antenna isn't pulling in KING.

I am tempted to try an amplified antenna (Radio Shack has a $60 that's supposed to be pretty nice, and there's an RCA model I can get for about $50 after tax+shipping that seems pretty good too), but given that even that big mast-mount antenna doesn't bring KING into a usable range, I'm wondering if there's something else going on.

I note that the KING channel is 48, while the highest number of the channels I can receive well is only 38. Also, our house is just a block NE of an AM radio station transmitter (three towers) that does in fact create a variety of interference in other stuff (comes in over the phone, over the VCR, interferes with the operation of certain electronic devices in the house, etc.). But I don't know whether any of that is relevant.

Anyone with some experience, especially experience receiving KING TV from the Rose Hill area, but really anything related at all to the issue I'm seeing?

Jim in Seattle

10-01-09, 08:58 PM

pete.d wrote:

... The reason it seems odd to me is that KONG, which is lower power, transmitted from an antenna a little farther away and 50m lower, comes in much better.
------------------------------
Pete,
Considering you receive KONG (which is on the KING tower, so its not farther away from you) it is quite possible you are receiving too much signal (overload) from KING which 'appears' on your set as either a lack of signal or an undependible signal.
------------------------------
... I've tested three different antennas: the dinky VHF-style antenna that came with the tuner, a cheap Radio Shack VHF/UHF combo antenna, and an 8-bay, mast-mount UHF antenna (unmounted though...sitting in my living room for testing purposes).
-------------------------------
Which huge 8-bay antenna did you try? I am in a peculiar location on lower QA Hill and I tried 9 different antennas including a CM-4228 at heights between 3' under my roofline to 22' over its peak with zero results for KING and KONG with one exception: using a Winegard HD-9095P under my roof level, I finally captured KONG. Its a monster and not worth dedicating to KONG. I recently completed building a small corner-relector "cut-to" KONG/31, but I have yet to test it.
-------------------------------
.... Each antenna provides about the improvement in signal I'd expect for most of the channels. But even the huge mast-mount antenna isn't pulling in KING.
-------------------------------
Again per my suggestion of a signal overload in your location, bigger (more gain) is not necessarily better - in fact you might be going the wrong way.

In my case, I built a specifically cut-to-channel 48 eleven bar Yagi (photo attached below) and it resolved my issue with KING, but it's not necessarily an answer for your area, especially if you have too much signal.

Please post your TV FOOL report, which will give all the members here a better picture of your situation, for their anaylsis.
Jim

pete.d

10-01-09, 09:36 PM

Please post your TV FOOL report, which will give all the members here a better picture of your situation, for their anaylsis.
Jim

Thanks for the info. Too much signal never occurred to me. Would it be worth testing without an antenna attached to the tuner at all? Or would that attenuate the signal too much?

As far as the "TV FOOL report" goes, I've been using the Google Earth overlays to inspect their data, so I'm not entirely sure what "report" you're asking for. But, here is a link to what I think might what you have in mind: www . tvfool . com /?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbefbf113a05735

Er. This is only my second post, and the AVS system says I can't include a URL until I've posted three times. So, you'll have to do some manual reassembly of the above to use it. Sorry for the inconvenience!

quarque

10-01-09, 10:29 PM

Thanks for the info. Too much signal never occurred to me. Would it be worth testing without an antenna attached to the tuner at all? Or would that attenuate the signal too much?

As far as the "TV FOOL report" goes, I've been using the Google Earth overlays to inspect their data, so I'm not entirely sure what "report" you're asking for. But, here is a link to what I think might what you have in mind: www . tvfool . com /?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbefbf113a05735

Er. This is only my second post, and the AVS system says I can't include a URL until I've posted three times. So, you'll have to do some manual reassembly of the above to use it. Sorry for the inconvenience!

pete.d - it is quite possible that you have a strong reflection from KING off some building somewhere. How much have you tried moving your antenna around vertically or horizontally? This multipath interference is tricky to defeat and might take a lot of experimenting. I would ceratinly try an attenuator for grins, although the TVfool table shows there is not a lot of difference in power level at your location for the various channels from QA. It might help knock down a reflection - again, lots of experimenting.

The other possibility is a harmonic of the nearby radio tower signal is right on CH 48 frequency and bombing it.

Eric J

10-01-09, 11:20 PM

Myron

10-02-09, 02:12 AM

hdtvlabs

10-02-09, 11:10 AM

The CM4221 & 4228 work well with hi-band VHF as well as UHF. The "HD" versions of both have a one piece screen (as opposed to two on the original 4228)

Here is VHF performance of CM4221 and CM4228 from HDTVPrimer (again, this is not my image, thanks to HDTVPrimer)

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/GainVHFnetUHF.gif

CM4228 may be ok on hi-VHF (not as good as an antenna designed for VHF anyway), but CM4221 looks bad ....

also, is 1-piece scatter plane the only difference between the old and the "HD" versions? I don't think so, but I am not sure

organikeith

10-02-09, 12:16 PM

-----------------------------------
organikeith,
At the Edgewood site I installed the Yagi below the CM-4221 on the same mast and it proved to be adequate. I spaced the antennas about six feet apart to avoid interaction between the two.
Jim

Thanks Jim, After looking at my set up, I will have to mount yagi below as I have the 4221 mounted at the very top of my mast.. should have enough room to space them...

organikeith

10-02-09, 12:20 PM

Check out message 8068 on page 269 - I had the same basic issue as you and solved it as described in that message.The y5-7-13 did wonders for high-vhf, although the replacement of old cable with new rg6 was a big help too :) Its not a small antenna but it sits on the balcony of my apartment and i'm pretty happy.

Now that fox is also mirrorred on 22-2 that gives you another option for reception

Thanks Eric J...I checked your post, very helpful.
I did just find the 22-2 simulcast.. but its 480i ! Oh well it will do for the time being.

organikeith

10-02-09, 12:28 PM

The CM4221 & 4228 work well with hi-band VHF as well as UHF. The "HD" versions of both have a one piece screen (as opposed to two on the original 4228) and have tech specs that include the hi-vhf frequencies. Unfortunately, the digital hi-vhf's are really under-powered and the real coverage areas do not match the FCC projections. Many VHF stations have been granted power increases but that may cause some short-spacing interference with other transmitters now licensed for that channel (mostly an East Coast mega-population area problem). Other hi-V's have applied to go back to their "temporary" UHF assignments as a faster, quicker solution. I understand Ch-13 has applied to return to Ch-18. Meanwhile, for your ragged-edge reception problem, I would try a good amplifier. Try the Kitztech unit. Its ruggedly built and they'll take it back within 10-days if it doesn't solve your problem. www.kitztech.com

I already have a cm-7777, so if all else fails with the antenna configs, I will consider the kitztech. Thanks

(regarding channel 13) Wow, I hope so. The whole sitiuation with these channels moving to high VHF seems a little retarded. :mad: I mean why move from UHF at all? Get everyone thinking they are good to go only to have multiple tvs go blank on your station as they move frequencies? Gov mandate to move to VHF? Or poor choice? Too expensive to broadcast on both? :confused:

Myron

10-02-09, 02:43 PM

Organikeith -- In analog, VHF channels 2-6 had a radiated power of 100-KW. Channels 7-13 had a radiated power of 316-KW. UHF max is 1-Megawatt. The UHF max reamained the same for digital power levels and higher power is needed to replicate the same coverage area that VHF stations covered. So, UHF transmissions are necessarily more expensive to operate -- there are trade offs in antenna gain, beam tilt, and tower height, of course. But in general, UHF is a more expensive operation. The FCC, in its "wisdom" predicted that digital VHF coverage would replicate the analog coverage area with as little as 30-KW of effective radiated power where 100-KW was previously required. This is because the digital signal is more akin to the constant carrier level of an FM signal than the peak power level of the analog sync tip. Naturally, bean counters and non-technical managers thought they'd actually save money by going back to their VHF channel for digital transmission -- and money ruled. Unfortunately, neither the FCC nor many station managers gave much weight to their engineers telling them that VHF is too prone to be affected by multipath and impulse noise problems to be reliable in digital and the power levels have proven to be downright wrong in their assumption. Many VHF stations have applied for more power (Boston, New Orleans, etc.) but in some areas that would now cause interference with other stations now licensed for the same channel (short spacing). The other answer is to "bite the bullet" and go back to UHF permanently. Side note: One station in New Orleans, when returned to their hi-V channel, couldn't even be received downtown by the FCC's own field office. They got permission to increase power immediately but still may go back to UHF.

Trip in VA

10-02-09, 05:07 PM

Organikeith -- In analog, VHF channels 2-6 had a radiated power of 100-KW. Channels 7-13 had a radiated power of 316-KW. UHF max is 1-Megawatt.

The analog UHF limit was 5000 kW. (5 MW)

Many VHF stations have applied for more power (Boston, New Orleans, etc.) but in some areas that would now cause interference with other stations now licensed for the same channel (short spacing). The other answer is to "bite the bullet" and go back to UHF permanently. Side note: One station in New Orleans, when returned to their hi-V channel, couldn't even be received downtown by the FCC's own field office. They got permission to increase power immediately but still may go back to UHF.

Both Boston (WHDH) and New Orleans (WVUE) applied for and have received permission to move back to UHF.

- Trip

pete.d

10-02-09, 09:42 PM

pete.d - it is quite possible that you have a strong reflection from KING off some building somewhere. How much have you tried moving your antenna around vertically or horizontally?
I had already before, but I spent more time today and fiddled with it some more. I think I finally found a "magic spot" where the signal seems to come in okay. Unfortunately, it's a good eight inches above the nearest convenient horizontal surface to set the antenna, so for now I've got a plain cardboard box holding it up. But hey, it works. :)

This multipath interference is tricky to defeat and might take a lot of experimenting.
It took me a good two-and-a-half hours to find the right spot and set the antenna there in a stable way.

One of the biggest impediments was that I have no reliable feedback on the exact quality/strength of the signal as I move the antenna around. I don't have any software installed that displays the real-time signal strength, and I suspect even if I did, the indication would not give me the information I need (i.e. it would be measured after the gain reduction the strong signal is causing in the tuner?), so my only feedback is whether the channel comes in or not. So it's a lot more trial-and-error than it could have been, had I had some good feedback on the actual signal strength.

I would ceratinly try an attenuator for grins, although the TVfool table shows there is not a lot of difference in power level at your location for the various channels from QA. It might help knock down a reflection - again, lots of experimenting.

Is that likely to be an in-stock part at some local store? I found a place online (well, multiple places) that sell them, including a variable-control one for about $12. But I didn't see any on the Radio Shack web site. I've got a "real" electronics store down the road I can check with, but I'm curious if there are other types of stores where I should look?

Also, is there a way to get an attenuator that is frequency-specific? I'm worried that in order to reduce the KING signal enough for it to come in, I'd mess up the other channels.

For now, it looks like I've got a working solution. Both KING channels come in okay (but if the antenna moves even a little bit from where it is now, I lose them), and all the other channels, including KCPQ which is much farther away than the others (out in Bremerton), are also still working.

But if there's a way to let the antenna work without it having to be in just the right "special spot", that would be great.

Thanks!

quarque

10-03-09, 04:54 PM

pete.d - Rat Shack used to sell a variable attenuator (15-678) for about $10. Try that part # online and check store inventory for your nearest store. Getting something frequency-specific could be expensive although there may be something out there that is reasonable - I've never looked.

Jiminkirkland

10-04-09, 06:56 PM

twostar

10-05-09, 03:56 PM

neighbor mow his yard sunday mornings? Just sounds like interference to me. Do you know which channels are the problem? Are they constantly the same channels?

quarque

10-06-09, 12:51 AM

DanKurts

10-06-09, 01:35 AM

Hello out there,

I'm near downtown Kirkland. I use simple rabbit ears for OTA reception. These seem to work very well throughout the week on all regular channels. Then comes Sunday (and especially Sunday morning) when a variety of channels seem to lose "strength."

Moving the rabbit ears a few feet (both vertically and horizontally) can usually solve the problem. By Sunday evening (in time for 60 Minutes) the situation returns to "normal."

All of this would be of no real consequence except for the fact that I like to record the political talk shows (Meet the Press, etc.) on Sunday morning and I'm not around then to find the "sweet spot" unique to that day.

Any suggestions? Any observations on why this seems to be a Sunday only problem?

Jiminkirkland
Common problem near a commercial district and on rabbit ears. You're in a good area for reception, most places there line of sight, but there's also a lot of signs. The bad boys are neon. If they're not grounded right, they can radiate like mad. Had a similar problem in South Center years ago. A restaurant had a special sign that went on only for weekends. It could also be something at a business that goes on at that time only, obviously, and generates noise. Normally, with a good strong signal, low background noise is not a problem, but with rabbit ears you could be running pretty thin and not know it. As long as the station locks on, it might still say 80% and be barely hanging on. If it's possible, move the rabbit ears near a SW facing window, and away from metal as much as possible.
Of course, a small outside antenna, like the Channel Master 2016 or the Winegard HD 1080 would be better.
The signal increase would get you above the noise level and should solve the problem.
Dan

DanKurts

10-06-09, 02:14 AM

Hi folks, I was wondering if you might be able to help me, I used to be able to pick up FOX OTA with my CM 4221, but since they switched to high VHF (13) I no longer get reception. (I also lost channel 9 and 11)
What would you folk recommend as a replacement that has similar performance as the 4221 but also gets some high VHF signals as well.. ? Something compact would be best, but I am open to more traditional designs if I have to go that route.
My location is poor, I am behind Edgewood in the East puyallup valley.
Thanks,
organikeith

Current line up
7-1 Kiro
5-1 King (intermitten)
33-1 Ion
20-1 TBN
22-1 (intermitten)
28-1 PBS tacoma
42-1 daystar
44-1
51-1
rarely 4-1

organikeith
Aren't you located just off Main, near 27th? If so, you're in an even worse spot now, after the changeover. You could use a yagi for 9-11-13, but 13 is a good 45 degrees west of 9 & 11 from you. Aiming it north might work, but 13 might be a problem. You could try a 4228, as they work fair for VHF, but your location will be tough. Any combo antenna will have the same problem with 13. A small yagi and ch13 jointenna might work, but you will still need two antenna's.
Biggest problem is Edgewood and about 15 miles of hill all the way past Sea-Tac. You must have a very sensitive tuner to be getting any Seattle channels.
The 7777 preamp is a very good one. The Kitztech unit is one I haven't seen. The specs look good for noise figure, headroom and gain are far less. Your preamp has a little higher noise figure, but my experience with it has been excellent. I would try the antenna route, first. You're main problem is getting a clean signal to amplify. You're working with a very chopped up signal, I'm sure. The bigger or longer yagi style combo antenna you can get will work best for the Seattle channels. Something like a Channel Master 3671. You obviously don't need all those really long elements for low-VHF, but it comes with the antenna. No one makes a big VHF-hi only/UHF combo. The long boom is what gives it the narrow reception. I wouldn't recommend a Winegard, lousy balun mountings. Channels 33-42-44-51 from the NE may or may not come in, hard to say. 28 might work as it's almost line of sight to the west. Ch20 might also drop off. You must use the 7777.
Main thing is, you'll have to try some things. Speculation and trying what others use won't really apply that well.
And for help in your quest, I'll burn some TV guides in the fire pit for luck !
Dan

Myron

10-06-09, 10:26 PM

If this were the year 1309 then I would say it is clear that you're using instruments of the Devil and then something about wrath and fire and brimstone etc. But it's 2009 and I got nuttin' (except ditto on the interference idea).
KCOP in Los Angeles has a press-board sign in its Maintenance Shop dating back to just after it started broadcasting many years ago that reads: "The Lord Never Meant For Pictures To Fly Through The Air." Its good Engineering philosophy. :-)

trodemaster

10-11-09, 05:07 PM

DanKurts

10-13-09, 03:25 AM

Hey Friends,
I'm looking to setup my brother with a DTV rig in burien. He is at 15421 Des Moines memorial Drive Burien 98148 3rd floor apartment. He is going to be limited to indoor or small outdoor antenna on his balcony.

Anybody around that location that can report on reception? How bad does the airport mess with DTV reception?

Also I can't find any local retailers that still cary the DTV converter boxes. Any ideas on somebody who is still stocking those around seattle?

Thanks!
Blake

Blake
SeaTac won't bother him much, but he's in kind of a gully. He needs to be on the north side of the apartment building, or have a balcony that can see that direction. Ch13 will be tough, and Seattle will be tricky. If he is, try a Winegard HD1080
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD-1080.pdf
They have them at Fry's. Anythng larger might be hard to play with. If it works, a small pole in a big planter or 5 gallon bucket of gravel works pretty good, and you won't have mounted anything to the building.
Fry's also has the Channel Master 7000 box, which is the best tuner out there.
Dan

rdiotte

10-16-09, 07:53 PM

KSTW was finally granted an increase to 100KW ERP for our OTA digital signal on ch.11 by the FCC, effective 10/15/09. If you have been having issues receiving KSTW after the June 12, 2009 digital broadcast inception date….try re-scanning your digital tuners now to find KSTW.

However….if you have been receiving KSTW just fine and now you aren’t….it may be that you had a reflected signal before and that reflection is now a lot stronger and swamping your tuner or the signal is too strong and you need to remove or adjust your pre-amplifier.

I welcome your feedback to see if this significant increase in high band VHF power for OTA DTV will result in more robust and reliable reception.:)

RON DIOTTE
Chief Engineer
KSTW / Seattle

Jim in Seattle

10-16-09, 09:02 PM

Ron,
Late this summer I chose to not install my home-brewed "cut-to 9" multibar Yagi (it worked great on 9 but not at all for 11) because I was considering building a reeeeeeally long cut to 11 yagi to try to grab your 12.5 kw signal, and hopefully still get 9 using it as well. I'm on the lower SW corner of QA Hill. Now that your ERP has changed upward, I bet if I run my "9" antenna up my mast, at some height I'll capture your signal --- hopefully, it will be at the same height I receive 9, without overloading my receiver. Congrats, on your 'win' over the FCC and/or Canada! When the weather moderates and I can test again, I'll report my results here.
Jim :D

finlay648

10-16-09, 10:50 PM

DanKurts

10-17-09, 01:28 AM

Bruceko

10-17-09, 08:21 PM

thanks
channel 11 works for me now in Brier.
Now if they would fix channel 13 I will be happy.

forum junkie

10-17-09, 08:33 PM

Out in Yelm there was no change in the KSTW signal. Not better or worse

Zapper97

10-17-09, 09:13 PM

Just curious... did you ever get your OTA issues resolved?

I ask because I, too, live in Arlington (just west of HWY9 across from the Gun Club)... and I am just beginning to explore this whole OTA issue :)

I would be great to talk with someone who's "been there, done that"...that is practically in your own backyard...

Dennis

I live in Arlington and the closest person I've seen in this thread is "Whidbey" from Marysville. I'm east of Arlington airport on the hill, just west of highway 9. (7800 block of 190th place ne, Arlington 98223).

I get pretty good SD signals from my location with an outside antenna above my 2nd story. I only care about 4, 5 and 7, although I wouldn't complain if I could get channel 9. On my SD antenna 4 & 5 are at a slightly different angle than 7 for best reception.

There are a lot of trees between my house and Seattle, but no houses in the way and nearest tree in the line of sight is 150-250 feet away (depending which end of the house I mount antenna). Unfortunately there are also Seattle City Light transmission lines above my line of sight approximately 500-700 feet from me (if that matters)

I am planning on buying an HDTV in a month or so.

1) I know it is hard to predict and I won't hold anyone to it, but do I have any chance at reception without constant dropouts and problems?

2) Because I am probably borderline on reception, should I try and get an OTA antenna now or would there be a benefit to wait until next February in hopes that the Seattle stations improve their antenna locations or signal?

3) Although we have two TVs, I'm thinking of running the antenna only to our main TV in order to avoid splitting the signal.

4) I plan on having someone local install the antenna for me (which I also did with my OTA), the roof is high and I don't want to fall on my head. Any advice when I am looking for a local installer, like certain questions to ask?

Thanks

DanKurts

10-17-09, 10:31 PM

allen98311

10-18-09, 01:50 AM

Thanks! I can now get KSTW at about 83% when aimed at Seattle (formally at around 63%-70%) and 73% when aimed at Bellingham.

Sheila

10-18-09, 03:09 PM

McFly9000

10-21-09, 12:11 PM

I have definitely noticed a stronger signal from channel 11 after the power increase. My signal meter went from the low 80s to the mid 90s. I never had a problem picking up the channel in the past however.

Now if channel 13 would only do the same! I am right on the edge, and a power increase would definitely do the trick. Or switch back to UHF, I never had any problems with their UHF channel... VHF is crap for ATSC signals, it has pretty much been proven nation wide.

rdn

10-22-09, 08:37 PM

tuquet

10-23-09, 01:25 PM

This is based on my experiment with the RS U-75R (15-2160) and the RCA ANT751.

While helping a friend with an indoor rig in Bothell (202/SR-527) I found that we could get everything but KCPQ even with the ANT751 a VHF/UHF antenna. On a whim, I dug out a pair of telescoping rabbit ears, extended them all the way, opened about 90 degrees, attached them to the boom of either antennas and tied down with some rubber bands with the leads dangling in the air. Voilà, 13 came in about 60% but was solid like a rock! Attached the leads to the antenna's leads made no difference.

I am sure this would work outdoors too but I wouldn't recommend it.

Experimental by-product: telescoping rabbit ears are better than the fancy VHF elements in the ANT751.

zyland

10-24-09, 04:35 PM

I just got an Archos5 Android media tablet and want to be able to get some recorded TV onto it. I'm assuming there's no way to get recordings off my Comcast Motorola DVR onto a computer? I'm wondering about using a Hauppauge WinTV HVR to be able to record over-the-air high definition ATSC digital TV plus analog cable TV on my laptop then transfer the recordings as desired. I believe that will get me the basic networks right? Does anyone have any input on this? Thanks.
Another option is the HD Homerun digital TV tuner from http://www.silicondust.com. It works with a lot of software and can tune over-the-air ATSC (8vsb) and unencrypted digital cable (QAM). They also have a model with two tuners. So you could hook up your antenna to one and your digital cable to the other.

tai4de2

10-26-09, 10:55 PM

allen98311

10-27-09, 03:07 AM

I can vouch for the HDHomeRun... nice product.

One thing, though... in my experience its multipath rejection capabilities leave a little to be desired compared to other tuner h/w I've used (e.g. AverMedia M780). Still, the convenience factor on it is cool.

I agree that the HDHomeRun is the best tuner for a computer that I have used. I have had nothing but problems with AverMedia tuner cards.

rdn

10-27-09, 11:20 AM

I like the fact that the HDHomeRun can be used with more than one computer (for those who are unfamiliar, it has dual tuners and a network connection). I run one tuner on my Mac and the other on a dual-boot Windows/Linux box.

tai4de2

10-28-09, 12:14 AM

I agree that the HDHomeRun is the best tuner for a computer that I have used. I have had nothing but problems with AverMedia tuner cards.

I'm actually saying the opposite. I use my AverMedia card and not the HDHR because the HDHR cannot reliably tune certain channels that are subject to multipath interference here. The AverMedia M780 can.

I do like the HDHR though. I'm just pointing out that YMMV.

Dink0617

10-31-09, 04:26 PM

NeedMyTV

11-01-09, 01:58 AM

DanKurts

11-02-09, 12:54 AM

I am currently using a CM4221HD mounted on the roof and while I can receive all the channels I want I have to rotate the antenna. I would like to avoid using a rotator so I am curious if there are other antennas that might be better suited for my location, a multi-directional one? I am considering the CM2016, Antennacraft HBU22, Radio Shack U-75R. I have attached my info from tvfool. I do have behind me to the north a large apartment complex, multiple 3 story buildings and several large trees(50ft). I am in Kent near Covington close to Lake Meridian. Any advice, information would be most appreciated.

Cheers,
David

David
Most people only want the basic channels from Seattle to the NW and ch13. That can usually be done from your location with one antenna and no rotor. The channels from Tiger Mt to the NE would be tricky, as well as ch 28 from Tacoma. The purpose of the antenna is to try and get signal from one main direction while rejecting unwanted ones from the other 330 degrees or so. A yagi style, like the U75, is very directional. The 4221 is very wide, as much as 160 degrees. Not perfect for everywhere, but can work sometimes.
Your location can be very fussy. If you were up a 100ft, and nothing in the way, the 4221 just might do it. At your normal rooftop levels, with all those signal problem buildings and trees around you, it's a real challenge. If you use a multidirection antenna, it's going to pick up even more unwanted signals. Multiple antennas can be used, with special couplers like Jointenna's, that keep them from interferring with each other. However, there are restrictions on which channels you can do that with. Depends on what channels you really want to get.
There are other ways, too, like switching between dedicated downleads.
A list of which channels you really want will help narrow down the solutions
Dan

allen98311

11-02-09, 01:55 AM

KBTC is now broadcasting in HD 1080i on 28.1 at around 13mbps and 5.1 audio. They also dropped the resolution on 28.2 (to 704x480 from 720x480) and have gotten rid of Create and KBTC Docs (although I thought all PBS affiliates had to have Create for PBS HD???)

KRyanx

11-02-09, 03:29 PM

I am currently using a CM4221HD mounted on the roof and while I can receive all the channels I want I have to rotate the antenna. I would like to avoid using a rotator so I am curious if there are other antennas that might be better suited for my location, a multi-directional one? I am considering the CM2016, Antennacraft HBU22, Radio Shack U-75R. I have attached my info from tvfool. I do have behind me to the north a large apartment complex, multiple 3 story buildings and several large trees(50ft). I am in Kent near Covington close to Lake Meridian. Any advice, information would be most appreciated.

Cheers,
David

I live pretty close to you and have an older 4221 pointed directly to Seattle coupled with an old VHF/UHF antenna that's pointed more toward Gold Hills (Ch 13) than Seattle (for Ch 9). I use a low noise CM preamp (7227 I think) to join the two leads. Before I had the preamp, I had a CM UHF/VHF joiner on the mast, and it worked but not quite as well as with the preamp. 13 comes in OK, but not perfect. Very rarely pick up Ch 28 (Tacoma) though, so if that's what you want, my solution won't work for you.

Noted the other day that 22.2 is broadcasting the channel 13 signal in std def from Seattle and it comes in stronger than what I get for Ch 13 off of Gold Hills. Too bad it's std def....

Dink0617

11-02-09, 06:14 PM

bm10k

11-02-09, 07:30 PM

DanKurts

11-03-09, 01:22 AM

Dan,
Thanks for the reply, the channels I am interested in receiving are, 4,5,7,9,11,13 ,25 and 28. The channels from Tiger Mt. I have had no problem receiving with any antenna I have tried, indoor and outdoor regardless of orientation. If I point the antenna NW I only get KTSW(sometimes)and the ones from Tiger Mtn. Pointing it NE I can get some of the Seattle channels but it is spotty. When I first got the 4221HD I just kind of rested it against the old satellite j mount and was able to receive 25 or so channels, can't remember which ones. Mounting it at the top of a 5 foot mast actually reduced reception so I lowered it and reception improved, perhaps it is under the canopy of trees?

I am fine with using two antennas, I really want to be able to receive KBTC so perhaps an antenna dedicated to it and one for the Seattle stations. I am stuck with the 4221 as it is too late to return it. One thing I haven't done is play with the location of the antenna, I'll give that a shot tonight.

Cheers,
David

David
I would use your existing 4221 for ch 28 with a dedicated downlead. You cannot use a Jointenna. It will wipe out ch's 22 and 31. Use a second downlead and a Channel Master CM2018 for the rest. I have found it works pretty good in your type of locations. The CM2016 is too small. The CM2018 has enough VHF power to help you get through all the trees, which aren't growing smaller, and the yagi UHF will help bring in all the rest. Tiger Mt comes in pretty good on the side of the small yagi's where you are. You shouldn't need a preamp, considering how well the 4221 was working.
Let us know how it all works.
Dan

ChipinSeattle

11-03-09, 05:48 PM

DanKurts

11-03-09, 11:03 PM

Seems like things are a little slow… So here’s a question I’ve been wondering about for quite awhile.

The critical point of getting your antenna aimed properly is mentioned here fairly regular. Often referred to as ‘finding the sweet spot’. I’m in 98119, not far from Jim, and I can tell you for sure that this ‘sweet spot’ thing is not an urban legend. The thing of it is is that it changes from day to day, sometimes hour to hour. I can get everything I’m supposed to, from 28 down south to 12 up north. Most times I get everything with the antenna pointed more or less SSW, [towards 28 for me]. It’s not so good on a sunny day… best when it’s cloudy & rainy. A plane flyin’ over can foul things up. Point is that 100% of the time I can get whatever I want to watch by tweakin’ the antenna. I have an old style 4221 on a section of mast in my south facing upstairs bedroom on a CM9521A rotator. This is the one that comes with the little remote control. Anytime something starts to break up all I have to do is tweak the rotator a bit, [sometimes as little as 10 degrees], to grab it right back.

So the question is; how come rotators aren’t mentioned more often? They’re cheap and easy to set up. You could even rig it up so it wouldn't be too ugly in your livingroom. I’d be givin’ up on OTA without mine. Is there a downside?

Chip

Edit; Didn't see all those new posts... My bad.

Chip
If you can get an antenna properly setup, you won't need a rotor. I've installed one in the last 25 years, and only because the customer wanted both Canadian and Seattle on one antenna. He was willing to put up with the rotor when changing channels.
In your case, your location, and working from inside a house, is where the problems are coming in from.
I grew up on QA on the North side. Walking around the living room could screw up the rabbit ear reception! You're even closer. Signal is VERY hot and multipath, or should I say MULTIPATH, is crazy. Planes flying over act like giant reflectors, but because they're moving, can cause a variable beat problem that will make the signal drop out randomly.
The weather can also effect the signal somewhat, but most people never see it because they're so far away from the towers. Close in you get all kinds of wierdness that's just strong enough to make those problems.
If you were to put the antenna outside you would get away from all those conflicting signals bouncing around in the room. Be sure to get a couple of 10db attenuators from Rat Shack down on Mercer. If the signal gets too hot, it will cause the tuner to act like it's not getting enough. If they don't help, take them back.
If you make the move, let us know what happens.
Dan

Dink0617

11-05-09, 05:21 AM

Jim in Seattle

11-05-09, 08:56 PM

re: 98119 (Chip in Seattle)
-----------------------------------
Chip,
HI NEIGHBOR!

I currently have two (commercially built) antennas here you are welcome to test for your setup. Please send me your TV FOOL "radar" report.
Jim

tuquet

11-06-09, 12:47 AM

Well I picked up the RS 75R because it was convenient and inexpensive, my reception improved, Fox, KCTS came in great, the networks not so well. I will play with it for another day and then probably return it. Is the CM2018 available locally? I would prefer to find an antenna in the area, easier to return, any other comparable antennas available in the area?

Thanks for all the help, it is most appreciated.

Cheers,
DavidLast time I was at Frys they had quite a selection of antennas.

allen98311

11-06-09, 01:31 AM

I can't get channel 5 or 16, did the power go out at the tower? My recording for the Thursday comedy's failed to start, so it must have been out before 8:00

tuquet

11-06-09, 01:32 AM

I can't get channel 5 or 16, did the power go out at the tower? My recording for the Thursday comedy's failed to start, so it must have been out before 8:00

It's ok now but was not at 10pm

allen98311

11-06-09, 01:41 AM

Of course, as soon as I post, it comes back!

rdn

11-06-09, 11:07 AM

I can't get channel 5 or 16, did the power go out at the tower? My recording for the Thursday comedy's failed to start, so it must have been out before 8:00

I don't know when it went out (my power was out from 7:15 - 9:50) but I checked at 10 PM and Directv had a slide up saying that there were technical issues so they opened up the NBC feed from KNBC in L.A.

Whidbey

11-06-09, 08:49 PM

I can't get channel 5 or 16, did the power go out at the tower? My recording for the Thursday comedy's failed to start, so it must have been out before 8:00

Same happened to me. Found our later on the news a chunk of Queen Anne had lost power last evening. I guess KING5 broadcasting equipment was included in that chunk.

DanKurts

11-07-09, 01:06 AM

Well I picked up the RS 75R because it was convenient and inexpensive, my reception improved, Fox, KCTS came in great, the networks not so well. I will play with it for another day and then probably return it. Is the CM2018 available locally? I would prefer to find an antenna in the area, easier to return, any other comparable antennas available in the area?

Thanks for all the help, it is most appreciated.

Cheers,
David

David
Fry's only has the cm3018. Has the bigger VHF low band elemnents. Okay to use, just a lot bigger. Not sure of their return policy. I get my from back east. No one around here has any of the UHF/HiBand VHF stuff. Fry's does have the 4221 and 4228.
Dan

Dink0617

11-07-09, 06:10 AM

Dan,
I was just at Fry's this week and saw the 3018 and I think the 3016. I was hoping maybe a local Ace had the 2018, it is on their website. What about the Antennacraft HBU33? My local Radio Shack has it in stock and since I am returning the 75R I thought it might be worth a shot.

Cheers,
David

GGG

11-07-09, 01:34 PM

For anyone who might be interested, I have a spare Blonder Tongue professional grade UHF antenna for sale for $95, model # BTY-UHF-BB (these list for $199). These are excellent for problem applications, are well made, compact and WAF friendly...Would also be interested in trading plus cash for a Blonder Tongue VHF antenna, BTY-LP-BB. I'm in Ballard...just send a PM if interested...thanks!

DanKurts

11-07-09, 04:10 PM

Rico66

11-07-09, 09:57 PM

I was at Fry's today as well. They had a couple of 3018s, a 3020 and a pile of 4221s. There was a price sticker for a 3016, but I didn't actually see it lying there.

Dink0617

11-08-09, 07:08 PM

I picked up the HBU33 yesterday and I am getting KCTS, Fox, KSTW, KMYQ, I cannot get KIRO, KING, KOMO, KONG. Would a preamp help at all to bring those stations in? I may just pickup the Radio Shack preamp to play with and see if it does any good, I can always return it.

Cheers,
David

jetescamilla

11-09-09, 01:05 AM

Hello all, I am new to AVS forums and I have been hunting around for an answer to a question you all can maybe help me out with.

I friend of mine told me that he signed up for the comcast basic package (no hi def receiver) and he did a scan of channels only to find that he had a about 90 digital signals in some odd ball high number sequence. Ok sure I said.

Well, 2 months later we move into a new house and get comcast for the cable modem. Because comcast is the most idiotic company I know of, it is cheaper for me to get the basic cable with the cable modem to lower my bill instead of just getting the cable modem (I have directv and am happy with them). One of our TV's does not have a direcTV receiver so I decided to at least get the locals to it and pluged it to the cable jack with 6 ft of RG6 cable. The TV is a Vizio HDTV (no tuner built in).

I did a channel scan and sure enough about 90 digital channels popped up. When I channel up and down they start at about 89-1 then on. They seem to be in no apparent order and I have found all the locals and a multitude of others (TBS, TNT, FX, etc....). On my Vizio it comes up as RF 89-2 or RF XX-X, making me think radio frequency?

Has anyone else experienced this? Is there a channel guide anywhere that can tell me what channels are where?

Thanks for the help.

PS

I am in Olympia if that means anything.

finlay648

11-09-09, 01:14 AM