Listers,
Today I noticed KBTC 28.1 is still there and 28.2 is carrying a soccer game, but it's marked as KCTS 9.2. I wonder if that's a test or a permanent plan?
Jim

Listers,
Today I noticed KBTC 28.1 is still there and 28.2 is carrying a soccer game, but it's marked as KCTS 9.2. I wonder if that's a test or a permanent plan?
Jim

I still see KBTC HD on 28.1 and Worldview on 28.2, same as before.

I still see KBTC HD on 28.1 and Worldview on 28.2, same as before.
-------------------------------
Rico,
I just checked again (5:20 PM) and 28.2 yes, has returned to "W" Worldview. I wonder if it was a test of some sorts? Thanks for the comeback,
Jim

As NBC is going to be purchased by Comcast (pending +/- one year of regulatory approval), does anyone have any information regarding whether NBC-Comcast would turn off OTA broadcast transmission in any markets and switch to cable-only carriage?

I see where there are laws/rules which require Comcast to license their content to other providers (like satellite), but I don't immediately see anything which would require NBC-Comcast to continue their own OTA services.

-------------------------------
Rico,
I just checked again (5:20 PM) and 28.2 yes, has returned to "W" Worldview. I wonder if it was a test of some sorts? Thanks for the comeback,
Jim

Sounds like some sort of strange receiver malfunction. Or an error of some sort at KBTC. Our 9.2 service is a Spanish language network 'V-me' that does occasionally carry soccer games. We bug it with a WSU/KCTS9 bug in the upper left hand corner and the 'V-me' bug is in the upper right hand corner.

As NBC is going to be purchased by Comcast (pending +/- one year of regulatory approval), does anyone have any information regarding whether NBC-Comcast would turn off OTA broadcast transmission in any markets and switch to cable-only carriage?

I see where there are laws/rules which require Comcast to license their content to other providers (like satellite), but I don't immediately see anything which would require NBC-Comcast to continue their own OTA services.

That deal is far from over. But if it does come to pass why would they want to shut down the OTA stuff? We won't even get into the fact that NBC doesn't own any stations in Seattle.

Shutting down the OTA operations would leave the channel open for someone else to build a TV station on. They would further fragment the market. I doubt NBC is dumb enough to make that happen.

Sounds like some sort of strange receiver malfunction. Or an error of some sort at KBTC. Our 9.2 service is a Spanish language network 'V-me' that does occasionally carry soccer games. We bug it with a WSU/KCTS9 bug in the upper left hand corner and the 'V-me' bug is in the upper right hand corner.
-----------------------------------------------------
tschall,
It couldn't have been a receiver malfunction here, because my home-brew 7-bar cut-to-channel 9 Yagi is currently in my basement (unfortunately). I ran out of summer before I could get guy wires to the mast and its to much of a sail to risk leaving up over the winter.
Jim

As NBC is going to be purchased by Comcast (pending +/- one year of regulatory approval), does anyone have any information regarding whether NBC-Comcast would turn off OTA broadcast transmission in any markets and switch to cable-only carriage?

I see where there are laws/rules which require Comcast to license their content to other providers (like satellite), but I don't immediately see anything which would require NBC-Comcast to continue their own OTA services.

It's not a done deal, as yet. I see no logic that Comcast would want to tear apart the NBC distribution network. I do, however, see the logic of Comcast buying the peacock network and restoring its lustre from the tarnished service that's out there now, and selling it off at a later date for a tidy sum of profit. Whoever buys NBC should fire the current programming executives, hire a qualified program chief and back him/her up with the resources to schedule a full slate of programs in all dayparts.

As NBC is going to be purchased by Comcast (pending +/- one year of regulatory approval), does anyone have any information regarding whether NBC-Comcast would turn off OTA broadcast transmission in any markets and switch to cable-only carriage?

I think that what Comcast is after is likely the cable properties. I can't fathom OTA broadcasts of the main network coming to a halt: NBC only owns ten of their ~200 affiliates, and convincing the owners of the other ~190...

Comcast's ownership of NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, Telemundo, mun2, Bravo, Oxygen, SyFy, Sleuth, USA, Universal HD, and the Weather Channel would transform the carriage fees for those networks from something that has to be negotiated into an internal transaction. There's also not much overlap: the programming's complementary with their current stable of E!, Style., G4, Golf Channel, TVOne, Sprout, Versus, and their regional CSN and CN8 networks.

The combination of the NBC-Universal and Comcast cable properties would also put Comcast in a stronger position when negotiating carriage fees with other MSOs (Time Warner, Cox, etc.) and DBS providers (DirecTV, Dish, etc.)

Just a thought. :)

I think that what Comcast is after is likely the cable properties. I can't fathom OTA broadcasts of the main network coming to a halt: NBC only owns ten of their ~200 affiliates, and convincing the owners of the other ~190...


The combination of the NBC-Universal and Comcast cable properties would also put Comcast in a stronger position when negotiating carriage fees with other MSOs (Time Warner, Cox, etc.) and DBS providers (DirecTV, Dish, etc.)

Just a thought. :)

For the stations that NBC owns (none in Seattle), it's unlikely they would discontinue OTA broadcasting, as the FCC license, cashflow, and market size determine the value of a station. Doing away with OTA means one gives up all of that and in the case of NBC, in majorly large markets.

You're right about retransmission negotiations. If Comcast owns a portion of the major market stations of NBC, but refuses to inter-office charge more than say..10 cents a sub (only as an example) for retransmission agreements between the cable entities, where their bread is buttered-cable, then that low rate drive down overall retransmission fees for the entire market(s).

Comcast buys NBC for its content production and the icing on the cake is they arrest climbing sub fees from traditional broadcasters. Who knows whether that would actually happen though.

While channel surfing last night I noticed that 44.5 has apparently changed from BIZ Television to an audio-only CW music station. Sadly, I don't really find it to be an improvement. Not that I was ever a fan of BIZ-TV, but I don't understand the thinking behind turning a TV channel into an FM radio channel.

While channel surfing last night I noticed that 44.5 has apparently changed from BIZ Television to an audio-only CW music station. Sadly, I don't really find it to be an improvement. Not that I was ever a fan of BIZ-TV, but I don't understand the thinking behind turning a TV channel into an FM radio channel.

It took me close to half an hour to figure out the source, but it's not a simulcast of an FM. It's the audio of RFD-TV: http://www.rfdtv.com/ Something's obviously a bit, erm, broken at KPST.

Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.
Kickin' back on the couch and caught this great show on Nat Geo, Worlds Toughest Fixes, 2000ft Tower. Very cool. Showed how they change out the antenna using a gin pole. Tried to find out when it will air again, no luck. However, they did have a short video of the program. This has a very high pucker factor !

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/worlds-toughest-fixes/3564/Videos#tab-Videos/06097_00

Dan

Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.
Kickin' back on the couch and caught this great show on Nat Geo, Worlds Toughest Fixes, 2000ft Tower. Very cool. Showed how they change out the antenna using a gin pole. Tried to find out when it will air again, no luck. However, they did have a short video of the program. This has a very high pucker factor !

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/worlds-toughest-fixes/3564/Videos#tab-Videos/06097_00

Dan

It's been on before and hopefully will be again. I saw it several months ago. I agree with you on the pucker factor. :eek:

Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.
Kickin' back on the couch and caught this great show on Nat Geo, Worlds Toughest Fixes, 2000ft Tower. Very cool. Showed how they change out the antenna using a gin pole. Tried to find out when it will air again, no luck. However, they did have a short video of the program. This has a very high pucker factor !

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/worlds-toughest-fixes/3564/Videos#tab-Videos/06097_00

Dan

Dan, that sounds interesting. For those who have Netflix, the DVD is available. Search "World's Toughest Fixes Collection".

I noticed from about 6:30 to 8:45 AM this morning, their signal was pixelating and it had audio dropouts on two different antennas here. The signal was rock-solid at 55, S/N ratio 27:1 and zero bit errors per my sets "onboard signal diagnosis". It's back to perfect, now. I was curious if anyone else noticed this.
Jim

Not really having trouble with 07 much but 04 (38.1) has really been bad for me since WED afternoon and is still dropping it signal. Two antenna's and three trips up to the roof with no results. Anybody else in Puyallup area having the same problem?

Just started trying to get OTA reception at my house yesterday, near Ravenna Park -- appx Ravenna Blvd & 20th Ave NE.

To get some idea of my reception, I got a TERK Omnidirectional indoor antenna (FDTV2, from Best Buy).

The channels I most want to get are
KOMO 4
KING 5
KIRO 7
KCTS 9
KSTW 11
KMYQ 22

With the antenna next to the TV, indoors on the first floor, I got 11 and 22 fine, plus 4 and 9 with a lot of stuttering and blockiness.

Moving up to the 2nd floor and hanging the antenna out the S window, I picked up 9 (with minor occasional issues), 5 & 7 (moderate issues), and lost 4 completely (why? Too much power??). This non-wife-approved solution involved 50' of loose coax cable running up the stairs and along the hallway, obviously I'd need a better solution. At this elevation I'm still looking at the backsides of the two houses behind me, which are likely doing nothing good for reception.

The highest I could likely get if I put an antenna on the ridge of the roof is 35' or so.

Channel 9 & 22 are at 183°, 4, 5 & 7 are at ~220°, so I could probably use a somewhat directional antenna aimed at 200° (or maybe shaded towards 4,5,7, which are the ones impacted by the University Heights hill behind me).

Unfortunately the anti-spam tool here isn't allowing me to post TVFool links because this is my first post. KOMO is showing as 46.3dB NM at 5' improving to 57.5dB at 35', but still listing as '2Edge'.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Just realized I left a channel off -- KWPX 33. While I don't care much about ION on 33-1, my kids like qubo on 33-2. Which makes it harder to use a directional antenna, as KWPX is on Tiger Mountain and at 126° to me.

Just started trying to get OTA reception at my house yesterday, near Ravenna Park -- appx Ravenna Blvd & 20th Ave NE.

To get some idea of my reception, I got a TERK Omnidirectional indoor antenna (FDTV2, from Best Buy).

The channels I most want to get are
KOMO 4
KING 5
KIRO 7
KCTS 9
KSTW 11
KMYQ 22

With the antenna next to the TV, indoors on the first floor, I got 11 and 22 fine, plus 4 and 9 with a lot of stuttering and blockiness.

Moving up to the 2nd floor and hanging the antenna out the S window, I picked up 9 (with minor occasional issues), 5 & 7 (moderate issues), and lost 4 completely (why? Too much power??). This non-wife-approved solution involved 50' of loose coax cable running up the stairs and along the hallway, obviously I'd need a better solution. At this elevation I'm still looking at the backsides of the two houses behind me, which are likely doing nothing good for reception.

The highest I could likely get if I put an antenna on the ridge of the roof is 35' or so.

Channel 9 & 22 are at 183°, 4, 5 & 7 are at ~220°, so I could probably use a somewhat directional antenna aimed at 200° (or maybe shaded towards 4,5,7, which are the ones impacted by the University Heights hill behind me).

Unfortunately the anti-spam tool here isn't allowing me to post TVFool links because this is my first post. KOMO is showing as 46.3dB NM at 5' improving to 57.5dB at 35', but still listing as '2Edge'.

Thanks for any suggestions.

ravenna
You're in a bad spot. You're on the wrong side of the hill. Add in the trees and buildings and it gets tough. Signal is strong, so you can pick up bounces off everything, but it's not reliable. An outdoor antenna is your best shot, but it will be very touchy trying to find a good spot. Going for ch33 makes it even tougher. If you aim for it only, towards Tiger Mt, it would probably be fine, but trying to get 4-5-7 is a wide spred. A 4221 Channel Master type would do well, normally, but your location would make it very difficult.
If you want to play, try a RatShack outdoor antenna. If you can't find a good spot for reception, at least you can take it back.
Dan

For anyone who might be interested, I have a spare Blonder Tongue professional grade UHF antenna for sale for $95, model # BTY-UHF-BB (these list for $199). These are excellent for problem applications, are well made, compact and WAF friendly...Would also be interested in trading plus cash for a Blonder Tongue VHF antenna, BTY-LP-BB. I'm in Ballard...just send a PM if interested...thanks!

Hello.

I am interested in your BTY-UHF-BB antenae.
Unfortunatly I live in Ottawa Canada and I am thinking that this will be hinderance.
My email is paul.marshall@nrc.ca in the hopes you are interested in pursuing my offer.

Thanks, Paul

I'm hoping someone here has some idea what's going on. I am in South Everett and recently installed a Channel Master 4221 on my roof. I have it pointed toward the towers for KOMO, KING, KONG and KIRO, which I understand are all in pretty much the same location.

I get flawless reception on KING, KONG and KIRO (all showing between 85 and 90 on the signal meter), not to mention decent reception of KMYQ and whatever the channels are at 20, 33, 42, 44, 51 and the occasional sighting of KVOS on 12.

But on KOMO, I get nothing, zero, never even a blip. It seems weird to me if the tower is located in the same area/direction as the others I receive so well. Has anyone experienced this or have any advice on things to try? I should mention I installed the antenna with a rotator and have tried spinning it all the way around and -- while I get various other channels when pointed in different directions -- I still get nothing from KOMO no matter where it's pointed. I've literally tried moving the antenna a fraction at a time, re-scanning channels each time (time consuming pain in the ass!) with no luck.

Help!

I'm hoping someone here has some idea what's going on. I am in South Everett and recently installed a Channel Master 4221 on my roof. I have it pointed toward the towers for KOMO, KING, KONG and KIRO, which I understand are all in pretty much the same location.

I get flawless reception on KING, KONG and KIRO...

But on KOMO, I get nothing, zero, never even a blip.

Have you tried raising the antenna? I have a friend in that area and he could not get KOMO reliably until he raised his antenna about 10 feet above his roof.

Supply your cross streets here, one of the experts should be able to give you a more informed recommendation.

I'm hoping someone here has some idea what's going on. I am in South Everett and recently installed a Channel Master 4221 on my roof. I have it pointed toward the towers for KOMO, KING, KONG and KIRO, which I understand are all in pretty much the same location.

I get flawless reception on KING, KONG and KIRO (all showing between 85 and 90 on the signal meter), not to mention decent reception of KMYQ and whatever the channels are at 20, 33, 42, 44, 51 and the occasional sighting of KVOS on 12.

But on KOMO, I get nothing, zero, never even a blip. It seems weird to me if the tower is located in the same area/direction as the others I receive so well. Has anyone experienced this or have any advice on things to try? I should mention I installed the antenna with a rotator and have tried spinning it all the way around and -- while I get various other channels when pointed in different directions -- I still get nothing from KOMO no matter where it's pointed. I've literally tried moving the antenna a fraction at a time, re-scanning channels each time (time consuming pain in the ass!) with no luck.

Help!

goletaal
The area can be fussy about KOMO. I had a heck of a time with the Magnolia store up there. Some areas are fine. Go figure. Some things to try first.
Replace the balun. When you do, be sure to keep the wires from the balun to the antenna mounting points straight and even, no twists and not laying next to the main boom. They can be near the connecting rods. See picture.
Seal the end of the balun where the wires come with silicon to keep moisture out. Redo the fittings. Carefully check your cable if you used staples. Make sure you didn't stick one through. Look for any big kinks or squashed areas on the cable. If you kink it, it can cause a drop out, even if you straightened out the kink. Once it gets dinged, it can be damaged inside and look fine outside.
Send your cross streets and we'll check it out from that angle, too.
Dan

I'm hoping someone here has some idea what's going on. I am in South Everett and recently installed a Channel Master 4221 on my roof. I have it pointed toward the towers for KOMO, KING, KONG and KIRO, which I understand are all in pretty much the same location.

I get flawless reception on KING, KONG and KIRO (all showing between 85 and 90 on the signal meter), not to mention decent reception of KMYQ and whatever the channels are at 20, 33, 42, 44, 51 and the occasional sighting of KVOS on 12.

But on KOMO, I get nothing, zero, never even a blip. It seems weird to me if the tower is located in the same area/direction as the others I receive so well. Has anyone experienced this or have any advice on things to try? I should mention I installed the antenna with a rotator and have tried spinning it all the way around and -- while I get various other channels when pointed in different directions -- I still get nothing from KOMO no matter where it's pointed. I've literally tried moving the antenna a fraction at a time, re-scanning channels each time (time consuming pain in the ass!) with no luck.

Help!

I'm in a completely different location, but also have considerable difficulty with KOMO. The antenna is not on the top of the tower, but on one side. This typically affects viewers to the west, but may affect the coverage in your area as well. You may get better results by moving your antenna to a different location.

goletaal,
Welcome to the frustrated club. KOMO is one station I want but cannot receive, however, they have been granted a construction permit and hopefully they will raise their transmitting antenna this coming spring or summer.
Jim

goletaal
Send your cross streets and we'll check it out from that angle, too.
Dan

Thanks Dan and everyone for the replies. I will get up and take a look at the balun as soon as weather permits (why did I wait until the end of summer to put this thing up?!).

The cable seems fine, no kinks, no staples used -- just a few nylon tacks that leave a little breathing room for the cable as it passes through. I think the antenna itself is as high as I can comfortably get it -- a mast (8 or 10 feet, I can't remember exactly) on a tripod at the peak of my roof.

Finally, my cross streets are Jefferson Ave & Adams Ave.

Thanks again!

Thanks Dan and everyone for the replies. I will get up and take a look at the balun as soon as weather permits (why did I wait until the end of summer to put this thing up?!).

The cable seems fine, no kinks, no staples used -- just a few nylon tacks that leave a little breathing room for the cable as it passes through. I think the antenna itself is as high as I can comfortably get it -- a mast (8 or 10 feet, I can't remember exactly) on a tripod at the peak of my roof.

Finally, my cross streets are Jefferson Ave & Adams Ave.

Thanks again!

On my topo program your line-of-sight to QA hill is not great. There is a 540-foot hill at about where SR-526 comes off I-5 and you are at about 370 feet. So, on top of all the previously mentioned issues you have a height issue for sure. You could try to add to the mast or try a higher gain antenna or wait for KOMO to get their rig to the top of their tower.

Anybody know of anything that changed regarding KCPQDT (13-1) as of yesterday sometime after 4:00?

After years of getting a steady, reliable signal (70% or higher), everything has changed like night and day. Now the signal is fluctuating between 0% and 33%. I can't see any physical change in my antenna or cabling, so I'm wondering if KCPQ had something change with their transmission.

Have you called them to ask? It's a Seattle number.

Q13FOX, KCPQ-TV
1813 Westlake Avenue N.
Seattle, WA 98109
Phone: (206) 674-1313

Anybody know of anything that changed regarding KCPQDT (13-1) as of yesterday sometime after 4:00?

After years of getting a steady, reliable signal (70% or higher), everything has changed like night and day. Now the signal is fluctuating between 0% and 33%. I can't see any physical change in my antenna or cabling, so I'm wondering if KCPQ had something change with their transmission.

I found KCPQ and KCTS were off the air for me this AM. Since they're both VHF, my first assumption was that there was something up with the VHF part of my system (like water in the coax which froze?). I didn't have time to trouble shoot before leaving for work. I'm curious if anyone else is having issues with these two stations today...

Anybody know of anything that changed regarding KCPQDT (13-1) as of yesterday sometime after 4:00?

After years of getting a steady, reliable signal (70% or higher), everything has changed like night and day. Now the signal is fluctuating between 0% and 33%. I can't see any physical change in my antenna or cabling, so I'm wondering if KCPQ had something change with their transmission.
----------------------------------------------------------------
tluxon,
I have two independent systems (upstairs and downstairs) and neither has shown any loss of signal nor quality from 13 here. You may be correct about water in your coax ... it wouldn't be the first time its' happened. Please keep us advised.
Jim

Being the Seattle forum, all of us here probably know the memorial service for the four Cops murdered last week in Lakewood, Washington is taking place and it's televised. The service is very impressive and emotionally moving to me.

CBS KIRO-7 (39) chose to suspend their usual network telecasts and has been covering it since early this morning. (Over 8 hrs of continual coverage, so far.)

What's interesting, is they dropped RTV for the day and are using their 7.2 sub-channel for the CBS network feed. KUDOS to KIRO.

I'd like to know if this is a first around the Country or only the first I've heard of something like this.

God Bless the four officers and their families.
Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------
tluxon,
I have two independent systems (upstairs and downstairs) and neither has shown any loss of signal nor quality from 13 here. You may be correct about water in your coax ... it wouldn't be the first time its' happened. Please keep us advised.
JimHmmm...water in the coax - I never would've thought of that. My first reaction is that I've had this setup to the antenna for 7 years and never had symptoms like this before despite ample wet and cold conditions. However, it has been 7 years, and such things can progress to the point of being symptomatic over time.

I'm getting 100% signal strength from channels 4, 5, 7, and 9. Wouldn't water in the coax affect all other station reception as well?

I am living on top of Somerset hill in Bellevue. I've been getting channel 13 for years.

Just recently all my 3 TVs can't find channel 13.

I have one of those 6' long Channel Master directional antenna (can't remember the exact model) that I bought from Frys.

The antenna is pointing toward Capital Hill in Seattle. I got all the channels, I even got channel 2 from Vancouver BC, but not channel 13.

Any idea what I should do?

Thanks.

Hmmm...water in the coax - I never would've thought of that. My first reaction is that I've had this setup to the antenna for 7 years and never had symptoms like this before despite ample wet and cold conditions. However, it has been 7 years, and such things can progress to the point of being symptomatic over time.

I'm getting 100% signal strength from channels 4, 5, 7, and 9. Wouldn't water in the coax affect all other station reception as well?

I think folks are mixing up the two of us, as we've had similar issues and I was wondering if I was having a frozen water issue.

It is interesting to see that a patch of us are having a similar issue, particularly (though not exclusively) with Ch. 13.

After doing just a tiny bit of problem solving, I have found that all my stations are down a bit, though it was worse on 9 and 13 and that it was only my cheapo converter box which had lost Ch. 9 and 13. My better Zenith DTT-901 can still pull all my "old" stations (including these two stations), though the signal on the DTT-901 is a bit lower than before (basically across all stations).

So I'm still thinking I have a (frozen) water issue. The issue likely applies to all the coax runs in the house (as noted by the slightly reduced signal at the DTT-901). Tonight I'll move the DTT-901 onto the coax run which was serving the "cheapo" converter box to see if the issues applies to all of the coax runs more-or-less equally (which will send me "upstream" into the cabling system, relative to the splitter) or if the problem is found more on this one coax run than the other (which would send me "downstream" into this one cable run, relative to the splitter).

UPDATE: I moved the DTT onto the other coax run and find that the signal is the same on both, which means that the "problem" is upstream of a splitter and doesn't manifest more on one cable run (after the splitter) than another.

So, with this final prompting, I'm finally getting rid of the "cheapo" converter box and buying a used Insignia brand (same as the DTT, different name -- the DTT is no longer available). Still leaves me wondering why reception went down with the cold weather, particularly with respect to VHF channels. I found the signal degradation was most significant on 9, 11, and 13 -- all VHF. UHF channels showed less loss.

Perhaps there is some frozen water in the coax or perhaps a tight bend in the coax gets a little worse with being cold? VHF is a longer frequency so interacts more with this problem?

Part of me even wonders how UHF vs. VHF RF propagates in a frozen water environment, relative to a liquid water one. Anyone have any insight on that?

Perhaps there is some frozen water in the coax or perhaps a tight bend in the coax gets a little worse with being cold? VHF is a longer frequency so interacts more with this problem?
------------------------------
Moonus,
Earlier today I read on another forum, one coax manufacturer (I can't recall which one) recommends bending their RG-6 coax no smaller than a 5" radius. Still, I doubt its that temperature sensitive, but I could be wrong.
Jim

My DTVPal DVR picked up KUSE-LD channel 46 (RF 46) last night. 46.1 and 46.2 are black screens, 46.3 is Jems TV, and 46.4 is currently paid advertisements.

I think folks are mixing up the two of us, as we've had similar issues and I was wondering if I was having a frozen water issue.
It is interesting to see that a patch of us are having a similar issue, particularly (though not exclusively) with Ch. 13.
...
Perhaps there is some frozen water in the coax or perhaps a tight bend in the coax gets a little worse with being cold?
...I have always had the antenna (Channel Master 4221) aimed between the Seattle transmitters and the Channel 13 transmitter, but Tuesday after work I went up on the roof and turned it directly toward the Channel 13 transmitter (according to antennaweb.org). That increased the signal strength from about 50 up to 60, while the Seattle stations (4-1, 5-1, 7-1) dropped from 100 and over to about 98 or 99. Nonetheless, I continued to have occasional breakups.

When I got home from work on Wednesday, I tuned into Channel 13-1 and saw the signal strength was back down in the 30's or 0 (no signal at all). I went back up to the roof and wiggled the cable around a lot (since I don't have easy access to the coax connector on the antenna as it's at the top of two 6' masts mounted on the chimney, I plan to bring it down this weekend). I went back into the house and saw the signal had come up to 62 and was very steady there.

I have a sharp radius bend (<1") going into the house and it's well sealed by silicone and hasn't been touched in years, so I don't believe that's the issue. This tells me it's something in the vertical section of the cable at the antenna end. Since I haven't sealed the connection with RTV or anything since installing, I suspect water has migrated into the top of the cable and time and the freeze exacerbated the problem to where it's noticed.

I may ultimately need to replace the cable, but I think I'll try to "bake out" the antenna end in our sunroom this weekend first to see it that helps.

Perhaps there is some frozen water in the coax or perhaps a tight bend in the coax gets a little worse with being cold? VHF is a longer frequency so interacts more with this problem?I don't use any VHF, so I can't speak to that.

Does anybody know why Ugly Betty got pre-empted last night at KOMO (Friday 12/11 at 9pm), when ABC played it at 9pm through the rest of the country. According to the forums, it seems it was only the Seattle market where this happened. KOMO was showing Big Daddy. I have been trying to find out if this was the result of objectionable content or some glitch in the programming. Does anyone know how to contact KOMO reps?

Does anyone know how to contact KOMO reps?

There are many ways to contact KOMO.

http://www.komonews.com/about/contact

Does anybody know why Ugly Betty got pre-empted last night at KOMO (Friday 12/11 at 9pm), when ABC played it at 9pm through the rest of the country. According to the forums, it seems it was only the Seattle market where this happened. KOMO was showing Big Daddy. I have been trying to find out if this was the result of objectionable content or some glitch in the programming. Does anyone know how to contact KOMO reps?

The main number at KOMO is (206) 404-4000. Ask for the TV programming department.

I think folks are mixing up the two of us, as we've had similar issues and I was wondering if I was having a frozen water issue.

It is interesting to see that a patch of us are having a similar issue, particularly (though not exclusively) with Ch. 13.

After doing just a tiny bit of problem solving, I have found that all my stations are down a bit, though it was worse on 9 and 13 and that it was only my cheapo converter box which had lost Ch. 9 and 13. My better Zenith DTT-901 can still pull all my "old" stations (including these two stations), though the signal on the DTT-901 is a bit lower than before (basically across all stations).

So I'm still thinking I have a (frozen) water issue. The issue likely applies to all the coax runs in the house (as noted by the slightly reduced signal at the DTT-901). Tonight I'll move the DTT-901 onto the coax run which was serving the "cheapo" converter box to see if the issues applies to all of the coax runs more-or-less equally (which will send me "upstream" into the cabling system, relative to the splitter) or if the problem is found more on this one coax run than the other (which would send me "downstream" into this one cable run, relative to the splitter).

UPDATE: I moved the DTT onto the other coax run and find that the signal is the same on both, which means that the "problem" is upstream of a splitter and doesn't manifest more on one cable run (after the splitter) than another.

So, with this final prompting, I'm finally getting rid of the "cheapo" converter box and buying a used Insignia brand (same as the DTT, different name -- the DTT is no longer available). Still leaves me wondering why reception went down with the cold weather, particularly with respect to VHF channels. I found the signal degradation was most significant on 9, 11, and 13 -- all VHF. UHF channels showed less loss.

Perhaps there is some frozen water in the coax or perhaps a tight bend in the coax gets a little worse with being cold? VHF is a longer frequency so interacts more with this problem?

Part of me even wonders how UHF vs. VHF RF propagates in a frozen water environment, relative to a liquid water one. Anyone have any insight on that?

Moonus
Water in the coax would give you far worse reception. Left in long enough and the metal foil that's wrapped around the white dielectric insulating material will eventually turn to clear plastic (the foil is just a coating on plastic) and not conduct or attenuate signal a lot. You can tell when it happensbecause the foil will turn to a gray powder when you peel back the outer jacket.
Slight amounts of moisture on the antenna elements can give problems, but they're usually not frequency sensitive.
Water in a balun will cause it to eventually rust internally and short out. Once that happens, it never comes back, even when dry.

What does cause problems related to temperature and moisture is normal corrosion on the signal elements that are usually riveted together, or where the balun attaches. The actual amount of contact area between them is quite small. After years of sitting in one spot, with corrosion building up around them, all it takes is a little movement, like a bird sitting on one, or the expansion and contraction of the metal in heat and cold, and the corrosion can work its way between the connections. That can cause intermittent problems. Your signal could actually be down on all the channels, but because the good ones are far above the minimum level required for your tuner, when they drop 20%, your "strength" indicator would still say 100 or some good number. It's not directly reading actual level.

Tight bends in the cable are usually bad all the time, and don't change with weather. Radius on bends should be over 4", but slightly smaller ones can still work. What does cause problems is a kink or pinched cable that then gets straightened back out. It may look okay, but it can now have problems. Definitely can have frequency "holes" where one channel is far lower or even gone, and everything else appears fine. Again, once your tuners incoming signal is above a minimum amount to lock on with, then number may say 100%, but you could really be down a lot and not realize it.
Then there's the thing where the corrosion happens more on one side of a pair of elements, so it's not working in a balanced fashion. That can also affect one channel only.

Best thing is once an antenna has been up and working for many years, try not to disturb it. Reaiming by turning the mast is okay. However, taking the antenna and mast down together, say for a roofing job, and then reattaching it later can cause all kinds of problems by just giving it a good shake.

Finally, get Channel Master converter box. Much more sensitive, and can work with very ugly signals. The Zenith is also a good box and my number 2 pick, but if you want the best, get the CM. I have both and tested them quite a bit around the area. The rest of the ones I have seen out there are not in the same league. They work with good signal, but if you're in a problem area, the CM is the best.

Dan

Thanks for the input, Dan. Based on your information, I'll suspect the balun. My antennas are still pretty new (and no rust on them), but there's an inexpensive balun which, now that you mention it...

Thanks also for the input on the CM converter box. I'd heard good things about it, but had such remarkable performance out of the Zenith that I thought I'd go with what I knew worked (though the CM does have the nice S-video output and their antennas and amplifiers are all pretty good).

Thanks for the input, Dan. Based on your information, I'll suspect the balun. My antennas are still pretty new (and no rust on them), but there's an inexpensive balun which, now that you mention it...

Thanks also for the input on the CM converter box. I'd heard good things about it, but had such remarkable performance out of the Zenith that I thought I'd go with what I knew worked (though the CM does have the nice S-video output and their antennas and amplifiers are all pretty good).

Moonus
I wrap the connector end of the balun with electrical tape, slip the boot over it, wrap the entire setup again and put a tie on it to keep the tape from coming undone over time. I then seal the other end where the wires come out with GE silicone2 and the connecting points on the antenna. The picture is on a 4248, but the idea is the same. I also wrap the balun securely to the boom so the wires can't get twisted.
If you get the CM tuner, let us know how it compares.
Dan

If your antenna has picked up Ch-2 from Vancouver BC it has good gain but is probably highly directional. Ch-13's digital transmitter is on Gold Mountain above and a bit south of Bremerton. Perhaps rotating the antenna just slightly more southward will resolve your issue.

According to REC Networks (www.recnet.com), KIRO's ERP (Effective Radiated Power) is 610-Kilowatts, KONG is at 35-KW, KING is at 1-Megawatt, and KOMO is 810-KW. Because of things like electrical beam tilt, it is possible for some stations to be much stronger than others at any given point. Try an attenuator. It is possible to overload the front end of tuners and in the digital world that would be reported on the screen as no signal (because the signal can not be successfully decoded due to distortion from overloading the front-end amplifier).

I was looking thru the REC Networks website and noticed as recorded 12/11/09, the Channel 11 translator K62FS in Port Townsend has moved from channel 11 to channel 51 and they raised their ERP from 0.3 kw to 6.6 kw.

The antenna field maps on the right side of the REC pages usually don't work but when I checked it did work and I compared their old and their new patterns. Before, their minimum signal (red-ring) line went as far as Edmonds, but now it reaches into Seattle.

So, for those who are having trouble receiving KSTW-11 VHF from their main transmitter, I suggest trying channel 51 UHF from Port Townsend. The REC link is below.
Jim

http://cdbs.recnet.com/fmq.php?facid=&call=K62FS&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

Further to my comments regarding the sensitivity of the Zenith DTT-901 tuner (and Dan's remarks that the CM tuner is just as, if not more sensitive than the Zenith) I was wondering whether others had seen a difference in sensitivity between different tuners included in different digital TVs?

For example, based on the Zenith, I'd expect that LG (which owns Zenith) would include a sensitive tuner in their digital TV's (though it's a big company and generalizations are prone to exception).

But perhaps all digital TV's now include tuners which are comparable in sensitivity? Does anyone have any experience with this?

Further to my comments regarding the sensitivity of the Zenith DTT-901 tuner (and Dan's remarks that the CM tuner is just as, if not more sensitive than the Zenith) I was wondering whether others had seen a difference in sensitivity between different tuners included in different digital TVs?

For example, based on the Zenith, I'd expect that LG (which owns Zenith) would include a sensitive tuner in their digital TV's (though it's a big company and generalizations are prone to exception).

But perhaps all digital TV's now include tuners which are comparable in sensitivity? Does anyone have any experience with this?

Remember the "ghost canceling" technology developed about 10-years before the demise of analog? It required a Vertical Interval Reference Signal (VIRS) be transmitted on line 19 so the receiver could align all the multipath signals arriving at the antenna so a proper picture could be presented without ghosts.

Today, multipath signals -- which affect different frequencies in different ways -- can cancel some signals in the middle of a station's 6-MHz channel while not affecting others. It is essential that reception of the digital signal have a flat frequency response across the entire 6-MHz of that channel. If this is not the case, as with all things digital, the signal will not be successfully decoded and the receiver will report "no signal".

Forturnately, the digital signal has a "pilot frequency" which is consistent and provides a digital reference for decoding. The first ATSC decoders [I]assumed[I] that the first signal received would be the strongest signal and were designed to ignore or cancel out the lagging "ghosts". The 4th generation of receivers finally allowed that the 2nd signal received might be the strongest signal and that improved reception performance. The 5th generation of decoders now actually can hunt the multipath signal and lock in on the strongest one (to some degree). An example of how this might work is if you are behind a hill but receive some signal direct from the transmitter yet a tall structure a mile or so away reflects a stronger signal around the hill to you -- the weaker signal arrives first because it travels less distance but being first does not make it the strongest.

With digital television reception, it is often difficult to determine tuner sensitivity issues (signal strength) versus decoder discrimination of multipath. The difference between the performance of some boxes may not be equalized just by changing signal level.

Remember the "ghost canceling" technology developed about 10-years before the demise of analog? It required a Vertical Interval Reference Signal (VIRS) be transmitted on line 19 so the receiver could align all the multipath signals arriving at the antenna so a proper picture could be presented without ghosts.

Today, multipath signals -- which affect different frequencies in different ways -- can cancel some signals in the middle of a station's 6-MHz channel while not affecting others. It is essential that reception of the digital signal have a flat frequency response across the entire 6-MHz of that channel. If this is not the case, as with all things digital, the signal will not be successfully decoded and the receiver will report "no signal".

Forturnately, the digital signal has a "pilot frequency" which is consistent and provides a digital reference for decoding. The first ATSC decoders [I]assumed[I] that the first signal received would be the strongest signal and were designed to ignore or cancel out the lagging "ghosts". The 4th generation of receivers finally allowed that the 2nd signal received might be the strongest signal and that improved reception performance. The 5th generation of decoders now actually can hunt the multipath signal and lock in on the strongest one (to some degree). An example of how this might work is if you are behind a hill but receive some signal direct from the transmitter yet a tall structure a mile or so away reflects a stronger signal around the hill to you -- the weaker signal arrives first because it travels less distance but being first does not make it the strongest.

With digital television reception, it is often difficult to determine tuner sensitivity issues (signal strength) versus decoder discrimination of multipath. The difference between the performance of some boxes may not be equalized just by changing signal level.

Myron
I'll second that.
My experience with multipath hasn't been reflections by objects, like buildings, but blocking signals, or selectively blocking like branches of trees. I have never been able to get a strong "bounce" off a building that was usable, let alone a hillside or something else. When you do get something, it's always far below the main map direction.
The sensitivity and selectivity are two different things. Some tuners can deal with really ugly waveshapes on the scope, yet require more signal than a sensitive one, and vice versa. The CM7000 and Zenith are good at both. The Samsung H260 was also very good, but not quite as sensitive, worked down to -22db, give or take. Still a very good reading. It was also a HD tuner. Sadly they quit making it. The Samsung TV's I've seen up to last summer have not been quite as good. Also, some brands, like Sony and Panasonic, can be hit or miss. Setup 3 of the same model and each works a bit different, even on the same antenna! Go figure. I'm hoping they get these latest tuner/decoder chips into the mainstream TV's.

What all this means is your mileage may REALLY vary from some one elses, even with the same equipment, antenna, and nearby location. It will usually be close, but there are definitely the exceptions. No hard and fast in the digital world!
Dan

DanKurts wrote:

" ... I have never been able to get a strong "bounce" off a building that was usable, let alone a hillside or something else. When you do get something, it's always far below the main map direction. ..."

Dan,
I've mentioned my shadowed location west of the QA transmitters here before, but if I point my 11-bar '48' Yagi SE into downtown at between 18 and 20 feet above my roofline, I receive a solid Channel 5 (48) and the only time if breaks up is when a seaplane passes thru on their Lake Union flight path. Funny thing is when the planes are returning and we hear their engines, we count 5,4,3,2,1 (blank screen) 2,3,4,5. perfect screen.

Secondly, the atmospherics must have been alive last night. We got back from seeing Manheim Steamroller, turned on the tube and channel surfed at about 10:15. KVOS-12 (35) had something of interest, but it was pixelating and blocking. I checked my antenna source and it was set on my CM-4228 located under my roofline pointed west (70 degrees to the side of KVOS) and it had them at signal strength of 5. I switched to my dedicated Channel 35 Yagi and they weren't at the usual 65 ... they were at 88! An hour later, they were at 54, as they are today. Bizarre!
Jim

Additional: Last summer I tested the same CM-4228 at 15 feet above my roofline (where my Yagi resides) to try for KVOS with no results. In fact, none of 5 other commercially-built antenna saw them at all.

Our cross streets are Woods Road and Hillcrest Drive in Port Orchard.

Normally for this location our antenna is pointed at 48 degrees. This gives us acceptable reception but because of trees and often wind conditions the signal meter only registers around 50 to 60 with the highest being Ch. 13 from Gold Mountain.

Recently I rotated the antenna to approx. 65 degrees which gives us 80s on Ch. 9.1 and 70s generally on 4.1 and 5.1 with 7.1 being in the upper 40s to 50s. Acceptable given the trees and wind conditions.

Two days ago (second time this has happened) 4.1 and 16.1 have 0 signal. Re-scanning brought them back the first time but not so far this time around.

Would someone know why this is occurring, what tower this signal is coming from or any other relevant information?

Thank you.

Hey AVS Folks,

Just getting settled in at a new house in Duvall, and looking for some antenna advice. I'm about a half-mile north of my old location on Miller Street, where I was doing pretty well with a Rat Shack Yagi hooked into a CM7777 PreAmp (mounted about 20 feet above the roofline of my single-story house.) According to Dan, I was pretty low to expect consistent signals past Union Hill, but the pre-amp kept me in business most of the time on most stations (aimed the yagi for the major networks, ended up with spotty reception on the Qubo-direction ones.)

Had to leave the old setup at the last house, so I'm in the market for a new antenna\pre-amp combo. I'm pretty sure that I'll have to mount in the attic this time, as I believe this "Arbor Woods" housing assoc. is a bit anal-retentive about outdoor arrays :(

I'm eyeing the Rat Shack HBU33 and maybe a new CM7777, but I welcome any advice you guys may have about better options. Unfortunately, I don't think we managed to get much higher on the Duvall hill to improve matters in that regard...
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7b0ec96c850fdc

Hey AVS Folks,

Just getting settled in at a new house in Duvall, and looking for some antenna advice. I'm about a half-mile north of my old location on Miller Street, where I was doing pretty well with a Rat Shack Yagi hooked into a CM7777 PreAmp (mounted about 20 feet above the roofline of my single-story house.) According to Dan, I was pretty low to expect consistent signals past Union Hill, but the pre-amp kept me in business most of the time on most stations (aimed the yagi for the major networks, ended up with spotty reception on the Qubo-direction ones.)

Had to leave the old setup at the last house, so I'm in the market for a new antenna\pre-amp combo. I'm pretty sure that I'll have to mount in the attic this time, as I believe this "Arbor Woods" housing assoc. is a bit anal-retentive about outdoor arrays :(

I'm eyeing the Rat Shack HBU33 and maybe a new CM7777, but I welcome any advice you guys may have about better options. Unfortunately, I don't think we managed to get much higher on the Duvall hill to improve matters in that regard...
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7b0ec96c850fdc

buckfalfa - can't speak to the antenna selection issue but I believe FCC rules have legal predominance (or whatever the term is) over any restrictions by HOA's. This has been discussed ad nauseam on AVS and if your search for "FCC rules HOA" etc. you should find a link to the rule which you can print and hand to your association. They can only limit you in very specific instances which usually don't apply to most people. Some people prefer not to pick that fight though. YMMV.

buckfalfa - see the link in my signature

Hey AVS Folks,

Just getting settled in at a new house in Duvall, and looking for some antenna advice. I'm about a half-mile north of my old location on Miller Street, where I was doing pretty well with a Rat Shack Yagi hooked into a CM7777 PreAmp (mounted about 20 feet above the roofline of my single-story house.) According to Dan, I was pretty low to expect consistent signals past Union Hill, but the pre-amp kept me in business most of the time on most stations (aimed the yagi for the major networks, ended up with spotty reception on the Qubo-direction ones.)

Had to leave the old setup at the last house, so I'm in the market for a new antenna\pre-amp combo. I'm pretty sure that I'll have to mount in the attic this time, as I believe this "Arbor Woods" housing assoc. is a bit anal-retentive about outdoor arrays :(

I'm eyeing the Rat Shack HBU33 and maybe a new CM7777, but I welcome any advice you guys may have about better options. Unfortunately, I don't think we managed to get much higher on the Duvall hill to improve matters in that regard...
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7b0ec96c850fdc



buckfalfa
I did a job on 275th NE at about the 14500 block, using a HBU44 and it did pretty good. I did need a 7777 preamp as a few channels were low and they needed to run 3 TV's. Stark
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
has them for about $75, a bit better antenna and cheaper.
The CM2020 would also be good.
What's your new cross streets?
Don't sweat the covenants. Of course, it's nice to keep the neighbors happy, if possible, but not required. Attic install would not work very well, if at all.
The link whidbey sent is all you need to show anyone if they ask. As long as it's your house, no shared roof with another owner or on community property, an antenna for TV recption is allowed, up to at least 12 ft above your roof, and more if you want to get into the technical parts of the rule.
Dan

Our cross streets are Woods Road and Hillcrest Drive in Port Orchard.

Normally for this location our antenna is pointed at 48 degrees. This gives us acceptable reception but because of trees and often wind conditions the signal meter only registers around 50 to 60 with the highest being Ch. 13 from Gold Mountain.

Recently I rotated the antenna to approx. 65 degrees which gives us 80s on Ch. 9.1 and 70s generally on 4.1 and 5.1 with 7.1 being in the upper 40s to 50s. Acceptable given the trees and wind conditions.

Two days ago (second time this has happened) 4.1 and 16.1 have 0 signal. Re-scanning brought them back the first time but not so far this time around.

Would someone know why this is occurring, what tower this signal is coming from or any other relevant information?

Thank you.

escolar
If there were no trees around you, it would be a slam dunk. Great location. There could be a variety of reasons for your problems. Trees are the most likely, they have a tendency to grow larger and give problems where you once had a path through them. Your antenna could be slightly damaged from a small branch, the balun could be getting wet inside from not being sealed, or moisture getting into a fitting or the cable that wasn't sealed, and more.
Easiest things to check are the cable and fittings, baluns are cheap so throw on another while you're up there. Plan B would be trying another location, even if only 10" away, in ANY direction, and see what happens.
Dan

buckfalfa
I did a job on 275th NE at about the 14500 block, using a HBU44 and it did pretty good. I did need a 7777 preamp as a few channels were low and they needed to run 3 TV's. Stark
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
has them for about $75, a bit better antenna and cheaper.
The CM2020 would also be good.
What's your new cross streets?
Don't sweat the covenants. Of course, it's nice to keep the neighbors happy, if possible, but not required. Attic install would not work very well, if at all.
The link whidbey sent is all you need to show anyone if they ask. As long as it's your house, no shared roof with another owner or on community property, an antenna for TV recption is allowed, up to at least 12 ft above your roof, and more if you want to get into the technical parts of the rule.
Dan

Thanks everybody! My cross streets are 272nd Pl NE and 273rd Dr NE in Duvall. I'll scope out my roof-mounting options this weekend and try to come up with something unobtrusive (while armed with my fightin' papers!)

I like that CM2020, looks like it's got a nice long UHF boom and some decent VHF elements- Think I'll order one! Thanks once again, Dan- you're a saint.

DanKurts wrote:

" ... I have never been able to get a strong "bounce" off a building that was usable, let alone a hillside or something else. When you do get something, it's always far below the main map direction. ..."

Dan,
I've mentioned my shadowed location west of the QA transmitters here before, but if I point my 11-bar '48' Yagi SE into downtown at between 18 and 20 feet above my roofline, I receive a solid Channel 5 (48) and the only time if breaks up is when a seaplane passes thru on their Lake Union flight path. Funny thing is when the planes are returning and we hear their engines, we count 5,4,3,2,1 (blank screen) 2,3,4,5. perfect screen.

Secondly, the atmospherics must have been alive last night. We got back from seeing Manheim Steamroller, turned on the tube and channel surfed at about 10:15. KVOS-12 (35) had something of interest, but it was pixelating and blocking. I checked my antenna source and it was set on my CM-4228 located under my roofline pointed west (70 degrees to the side of KVOS) and it had them at signal strength of 5. I switched to my dedicated Channel 35 Yagi and they weren't at the usual 65 ... they were at 88! An hour later, they were at 54, as they are today. Bizarre!
Jim

Additional: Last summer I tested the same CM-4228 at 15 feet above my roofline (where my Yagi resides) to try for KVOS with no results. In fact, none of 5 other commercially-built antenna saw them at all.

Jim
I'm sure you're getting reception from what appears to be a bounce. If you saw the wave shape on a scope, though, and measured actual levels, not what your tuner indicates, it would indicate other problems. When the plane goes by, you do get some reflections from it, just like from downtown, and from all around you. Actual levels there are crazy. Add in all the harmonics from the other three channels, and then the standing waves rolling down the towers and assorted other wierdness from all the microwave and radio repeaters around there, and it becomes a real nightmare. What you can't see is how all this makes your waveshape ugly, and bounce all over the place. What appears to be working and giving good numbers could really be just hanging on. A small change in surroundings, weather, or ???? could give all kinds of odd results. The fact you've been able to get it to work at all is testament to your hard work.

Further, EVERY little thing that you would normally not think about becomes a problem. My Bro lived over on Galer and Highland and we had a heck of a time getting ch5 audio out of his phone system. Found out the Panasonic phones had these little noise filters that just happend to be very sympathetic to that audio frequency. Once I clipped them out, all was good. Go figure!
Our family home was on the poor side of the hill by the Ballard bridge. Even there it was a challenge to get a clean analog ghost free picture.
We lived there from 1954 to 1994. And we could just see the tops of the three towers. Then there were many of my friends folks that my Dad did antenna installs and TV service. And that was when all we had was twin lead for antenna wire!

Digital should get around all this, but it has added different wrinkles to the game. All this is why I haven't seen a bounce that could be really used reliably.
Again, you have a very special set of challenges I wouldn't wish on anyone. If misaiming the antenna, spraying Velveeta cheese on it, or painting it bright orange makes it work, go for it ! As you've found out, there's theory, and then there's real world.
Keep up the good work and keep us informed. You win the patience award for perseverance!
Happy Holidays !!
Dan

Thanks everybody! My cross streets are 272nd Pl NE and 273rd Dr NE in Duvall. I'll scope out my roof-mounting options this weekend and try to come up with something unobtrusive (while armed with my fightin' papers!)

I like that CM2020, looks like it's got a nice long UHF boom and some decent VHF elements- Think I'll order one! Thanks once again, Dan- you're a saint.

buckfalfa
Dude!
You couldn't find a better house higher up the hill ?!?!?
Union Hill, or NE 140th & 238th Ave NE, is where your signal path runs into a big hill. I never say never, but it's going to be a challenge. If you have the extra bucks, you might even want to try a bigger HBU55
http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU.html
You're going to need everything you can pull in.
Let us know what happens. Call if you have questions
Dan
206-794-3993

Thank you Dan.

buckfalfa
Dude!
You couldn't find a better house higher up the hill ?!?!?
Union Hill, or NE 140th & 238th Ave NE, is where your signal path runs into a big hill. I never say never, but it's going to be a challenge. If you have the extra bucks, you might even want to try a bigger HBU55
http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU.html
You're going to need everything you can pull in.
Let us know what happens. Call if you have questions
Dan
206-794-3993

Thanks again, Dan. I'll definitely post back here once the CM2020 arrives and is set up. I've always been impressed by the signals that manage to find their way to me in Duvall, though digital has definitely been a much more "hit-or-miss" proposition than my earlier experiences with analog.

Friends down at the North end of town (2nd Ave and Bird) report pulling in strong signals with indoor amplified antennas, so I'm still holding out hope!

It appears that KPST is off air. Not sure if this is related or not but their website http://www.kpsttv.com has become a GoDaddy parked website as well.

Dan wrote:
... "If misaiming the antenna, spraying Velveeta cheese on it, or painting it bright orange makes it work, go for it ! As you've found out, there's theory, and then there's real world.
Keep up the good work and keep us informed. You win the patience award for perseverance!
Happy Holidays !!"
Dan
--------------------------------
Dan,
I'll keep your suggestions in mind and thanks for the laugh and compliments. Merry Christmas!
Jim

It appears that KPST is off air. Not sure if this is related or not but their website http://www.kpsttv.com has become a GoDaddy parked website as well.

their website is http://www.tv45.tv/, but it still has their old call letters.

Could we really see the end of OTA TV? Somebody please assuage my fear!

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/441571-Local_Broadcasters_TV_is_Highest_Best_Use_of_Spectrum.php


A consortium of TV groups filing jointly have told the FCC where to go for spectrum; which is somewhere else.

In their filing at the FCC, which requested comments--due Dec. 21--on how it might reclaim some broadcast spectrum, 24 groups representing a whopping 226 TV stations large and small, said that broadcast TV "represents the highest and best use of the spectrum in the public interest."

To be able to innovate, serve the public and remain competitive, broadcasters need all their spectrum, they said. "The channel-sharing and service area reductions contemplated in the Public Notice would take this ability away from broadcasters and likely result in widespread viewer reception difficulties," they argued.

Broadcasting is the most efficient way to deliver popular programming, they said, echoing the National Association of Broadcasters' argument that the one-to-many model trumps wireless telephones one-to-one communications. The FCC is seeking spectrum for wireless broadband, and has argued that broadband and TV video delivery are merging.¨

their website is http://www.tv45.tv/, but it still has their old call letters.
I believe that website is stale. The www.kpsttv.com website used to have more recent information after the switch to KPST.

I am picking up a signal from channel 44, but there is nothing their! I see this on channel 46 sometimes too.

This is what comes across the Comcast (ClearQAM) for KPST and its subchannels:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9452/kpst.png

Hopefully only temporary.

Cheers,
Kermee

Anyone have antenna experience for the area around cross streets: 16th Ave E and Garfield/Galer? I'm tempted to buy mail order, but would be safer to buy local, unless there is a standout recommendation.

Anyone have antenna experience for the area around cross streets: 16th Ave E and Garfield/Galer? I'm tempted to buy mail order, but would be safer to buy local, unless there is a standout recommendation.

mtgoat
You're in a good spot for signal level, too good. It's a problem. You can try an indoor antenna, but it will probably be a bit unpredictable. Signal is bouncing all around you. The two basic directions are west and south. Hard for a yagi style, easy for a bow tie type like the the 4221 Channel Master. I've used it on several jobs around your house. The challenge is finding the right spot where you can see in those two directions without having your neighbors house or trees in the way. You're just over the hilltop enough that you want to get it as high as possible on the western direction. Southern direction is already line of sight. Signal strength will be very strong, so use a 20db attenuator at the input to the tuner. Ch13 may be fussy, but not much you can do about that. You might try a Winegard 1080, which Fry's in Renton has. It has the VHF part you'll need for ch's 9-11-13. You'll need to aim it somewhere between the two directions. Aim it, take some readings, write them down, then move it a little and measure. Somewhere you should find a spot that gives the most consistent readings. Highest readings are not really important, just as long as it's somewhat steady and above 50.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

Dan-

What antenna would you suggest for our location?

Our cross streets are Woods Road and Hillcrest Drive in Port Orchard.

Normally for this location our antenna is pointed at 48 degrees. This gives us acceptable reception but because of trees and often wind conditions the signal meter only registers around 50 to 60 with the highest being Ch. 13 from Gold Mountain.

Recently I rotated the antenna to approx. 65 degrees which gives us 80s on Ch. 9.1 and 70s generally on 4.1 and 5.1 with 7.1 being in the upper 40s to 50s. Acceptable given the trees and wind conditions.

Two days ago (second time this has happened) 4.1 and 16.1 have 0 signal. Re-scanning brought them back the first time but not so far this time around.

Would someone know why this is occurring, what tower this signal is coming from or any other relevant information?

Thank you.
Channel 4 is on Queen Anne hill and is the center of the three towers. Channel 16 is on the KING tower on Queen Anne hill and is the eastern-most of the three towers.

Dan-

What antenna would you suggest for our location?

escolar
Hard to say without seeing it. Your location without trees is great. Since you get problems in wind, it suggests trees are the culprit. Even though you get what looks like good readings, signal could actually be pretty ugly, waveshape wise. You are just hanging on enough to work, Any wind and you drop below thresholds for lock, and get zero.

Ch13 throws a small problem into the answer of what antenna to use. I would go for the rest and worry about 13 later. You need a yagi style to get through the trees, and the longer the boom the better. Means it has a narrow reception path, and looks at nothing but almost dead ahead. A preamp shouldn't be needed. I have tried the Antenna craft HBU44 in Duval, and it worked well. If it were my home, I would get the biggest bad boy I could, the HBU55
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/HBU55_.pdf
The trees aren't going to get smaller over time, so you might as well do it once and right. If ch13 doesn't come in on the side, a small antenna for that can be added later. Make sure you have the mast well anchored. The winds over there will give it a workout. RatShack could get it for you, but I would bet it's cheaper on line. Aim in roughly the same direction as before, and tweak for best numbers. All channels are basically the same direction. The trees will the dictate final setting.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

Thank you Dan. Will do.

I'm sure others have seen this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091229/ap_on_en_tv/us_free_broadcasters_in_peril;_ylt=AuLXYe8Ah.QWs6vjv41o4Qas0 NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFoOTU2anRwBHBvcwMxMzUEc2VjA2FjY29yZGlvbl90ZWN obm9sb2d5BHNsawNicm9hZGNhc3RlcnM-) (or similar) too, "Broadcasters' woes could spell trouble for free TV," but wonder what the reaction here might be. Posturing? Is there any substance behind it?

I'm sure others have seen this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091229/ap_on_en_tv/us_free_broadcasters_in_peril;_ylt=AuLXYe8Ah.QWs6vjv41o4Qas0 NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFoOTU2anRwBHBvcwMxMzUEc2VjA2FjY29yZGlvbl90ZWN obm9sb2d5BHNsawNicm9hZGNhc3RlcnM-) (or similar) too, "Broadcasters' woes could spell trouble for free TV," but wonder what the reaction here might be. Posturing? Is there any substance behind it?

Interesting. Do we have a right to free TV? Or are we at the mercy of the goodwill of broadcasters?

Interesting. Do we have a right to free TV? Or are we at the mercy of the goodwill of broadcasters?

Speaking as an industry hack, I wouldn't say you have a 'right' to free over the air TV, especially since most are commercial entities. That being said, broadcasters obviously want you to watch their programming, and will do what is within their power as a licensee to make sure you can.

Really there are several issues afoot here:

OTA transmission systems are expensive to build, maintain and operate. Over the past twenty years, the influx of cable and satellite access has created an assumption on the part of consumers that the only way one can watch TV is via a cable or satellite subscription. In fact, 90% of television viewers nationwide are subscribers to cable or satellite TV. OTA viewership is (depending on the market) between 2 and 10%. With the whole DTV transmission conversion fiasco behind us, I think broadcasters are really looking at the relevance of maintaining OTA systems into the future. The challenge is weighing the costs of maintaining OTA verses the free feed sent to the cable system(s).

Now add in the new administration at the FCC. Recently the new FCC Commissioner commissioned a study from Professor Stuart Benjamin "Roasting the Pig to Burn Down the House" about where to find spectrum for public broadband access. The opinion of the report " (to paraphrase) was that the FCC should just take spectrum away from DTV because not only is local television becoming irrelevant, the use of spectrum from DTV is excessive and unnecessary. A .pdf copy of the 13 page report is available on-line.

Based on the report, last month the FCC suggested that broadcasters consider giving up some of their 6mHz channel to provide space for public broadband. Needless the say most broadcasters were unamused by this proposal, given the fact they had just been required to spend billions on the government-mandated DTV conversion. One of the suggestions by the FCC was some form of profit sharing in markets where broadcasters agreed to give up some of their channel space which could be auctioned off to the highest bidder. The down side for consumers would be the end of HD broadcasting from a station who agreed-to, or were forced to give up a portion of their channel.

So yes, OTA is in jeopardy for the long haul I suppose. If you want free OTA to continue and potentially grow in popularity, both broadcasters and the public need to get out and promote the method. At the same time, if the report boils your blood like it did mine; sit down and write your Congressperson an E-mail, objecting to any proposed alteration of the current TV broadcast band or removal of channel space from existing broadcasters.

In my view, there are hundreds of channels of available-unused spectrum out there reserved for the use of the government and government defense contractors. They should look to that spectrum first before poaching the already crowded broadcast bands.

In my view, there are hundreds of channels of available-unused spectrum out there reserved for the use of the government and government defense contractors. They should look to that spectrum first before poaching the already crowded broadcast bands.


Well stated, and my thoughts also. We've already lost channels 1, 37, 70-83, and just recently 52-69. The 200mhz military band is very quiet. And there's a ton of space in unexplored frequency ranges at the top of the spectrum.

Univision is broadcasting the 2010 Tournament of Roses Parade in HD in a bunch of markets. Unfortunately, KUNS isn't one of them. One more HD broadcast channel would be nice for 2010. Maybe two if KWPX follows suit. KPXG in Portland has been HD for months.

KIRO filed a covering license for the top mount facility:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1348144&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=66781

Edit: After further review and refreshing my memory by looking at the old pictures posted, this was already done and this appears to be just a formality.

KIRO filed a covering license for the top mount facility:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1348144&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=66781

Edit: After further review and refreshing my memory by looking at the old pictures posted, this was already done and this appears to be just a formality.

I think it might be for a power increase back to 1000kW. I think they had to run at 610kW after they increased their HAAT.

Falcon,
I think you're edit is correct and if that's the case, their antenna is not top mounted, it's side mounted. Or does "the facility" refer to only the tower itself? I'm not that well versed in 'legal-speak'.
Jim
---------------------------------------
KIRO filed a covering license for the top mount facility:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1348144&Service=DT&Form_id=2&Facility_id=66781

Edit: After further review and refreshing my memory by looking at the old pictures posted, this was already done and this appears to be just a formality.

Falcon,
I think you're edit is correct and if that's the case, their antenna is not top mounted, it's side mounted. Or does "the facility" refer to only the tower itself? I'm not that well versed in 'legal-speak'.
Jim
---------------------------------------

I wish they would have top mounted it. Reception of KIRO is normally pretty good here, but there are occasional dropouts. It's still better than KOMO (no reception at all). KING/KONG come in just fine (south side of Eagle Harbor, Bainbridge Island).

Weird that you don't get KOMO... my TV Fool maps (in Google Earth) show fairly reasonable coverage throughout Eagle Harbor (south side included), better than KING, that's for sure.

their website is http://www.tv45.tv/, but it still has their old call letters.

I believe that website is stale. The www.kpsttv.com website used to have more recent information after the switch to KPST.

Their website is back up:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/kpst.jpg

As you can see, it has a fairly strong message about what they have copyrighted. I thought maybe the website had been jacked, but they were (and are still as of 1/7/10) off the air, so maybe that isn't it.

I wonder if KCPQ has actually relinquished the phrase "Puget Sound Television"- they haven't used it in years.

Not that it really matters I suppose, but I wonder if they know that Fisher Communications owns KOMO-TV, a local Seattle company with historical ties to the Seattle area?

Disclaimer: I don't work for KOMO nor Fisher anymore, but found the KPST claim as being "Seattles Only Local Television Company" rather amusing...

It would be nice if their website had a little more information on it. I really don't want to unlink the old one from my site until the new one has something useful on it...

- Trip

Weird that you don't get KOMO... my TV Fool maps (in Google Earth) show fairly reasonable coverage throughout Eagle Harbor (south side included), better than KING, that's for sure.

It's highly dependent on antenna location. I found a few spots where KOMO came in fine but some of the others did not, and mounting at those locations would have been difficult. When I first went digital, I had a number of exchanges with Don Wilkinson at KOMO and he was surprised that I was having problems. It's probably the trees (if they weren't there I could see the Q.A. towers from my roof).

When Directv finally started carrying KOMO in HD I stopped worrying about it, although the 4-2 subchannel would be nice.

I just did a rescan on my Vizio and now it doesn't see KIRO either, although it still comes in fine on my Directv AM21 OTA tuner.

I mainly have used OTA with my HDHomeRun, but that stopped working a month ago and it probably isn't worth replacing (I bought it to replace a broken EyeTV so I'm not very high on the reliability of some of this stuff).

I mainly have used OTA with my HDHomeRun, but that stopped working a month ago and it probably isn't worth replacing (I bought it to replace a broken EyeTV so I'm not very high on the reliability of some of this stuff).

In case you change your mind Silicondust will swap out your failed HDHomerun for a refurbed unit for about $75. I did this about 6 months ago.

In case you change your mind Silicondust will swap out your failed HDHomerun for a refurbed unit for about $75. I did this about 6 months ago.

That's good to know--thanks!

Hi folks -- Newbie here. I searched the archives of this thread for information about my specific area and didn't see anything in the last few years so I thought it would be OK to ask.

My cross streets are 83rd street and Dibble Ave NW and I can currently pull in (at least marginally) all the channels I'm really interested in with only a set of rabbit ears plugged into my Samsung digital TV (we're not much of a TV watching family). However, I'd like to not have to fiddle with the antenna when changing stations or have it break up sometimes in bad weather, so I'm wondering if a relatively cheap/small antenna upgrade would solve my problems.

I looked at TV Fool and as they would predict, I get channels 4.x, 5.x, and 7.x well, the PBS channels (9.x) are not as good. I don't get 13 at all, but can get Fox well on 22.2 (which seems contrary to their information).

Any advice on a relatively cheap/easy solution. I'm thinking an attic mount would be easiest, but could mount on the outside of my house if necessary.

Thanks,

Mark

Hi folks -- Newbie here. I searched the archives of this thread for information about my specific area and didn't see anything in the last few years so I thought it would be OK to ask.

My cross streets are 83rd street and Dibble Ave NW and I can currently pull in (at least marginally) all the channels I'm really interested in with only a set of rabbit ears plugged into my Samsung digital TV (we're not much of a TV watching family). However, I'd like to not have to fiddle with the antenna when changing stations or have it break up sometimes in bad weather, so I'm wondering if a relatively cheap/small antenna upgrade would solve my problems.

I looked at TV Fool and as they would predict, I get channels 4.x, 5.x, and 7.x well, the PBS channels (9.x) are not as good. I don't get 13 at all, but can get Fox well on 22.2 (which seems contrary to their information).

Any advice on a relatively cheap/easy solution. I'm thinking an attic mount would be easiest, but could mount on the outside of my house if necessary.

Thanks,

Mark


Mark
You're in a pretty good spot, but the hill rises a little to the south east and could be a small problem. It might take a few trys to find the right location. Try a Rat Shack Antennacraft HBU33.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3740646
You might find it online for a little less. Attic mount won't work very well. Mount it outside and point it basically south.
Dan

About 5:45 PM I was astonished to see a "Save Free TV" Commercial sponsored by the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) on our local FOX affiliate, KCPQ VHF-13.

It caught me by surprise because I was responding to another thread, so I really can't report the details until I see it again, but it suggested for people to contact their members of Congress. Watch for it and please follow thru! This is a very good first response.
Jim

About 5:45 PM I was astonished to see a "Save Free TV" Commercial sponsored by the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) on our local FOX affiliate, KCPQ VHF-13.

It caught me by surprise because I was responding to another thread, so I really can't report the details until I see it again, but it suggested for people to contact their members of Congress. Watch for it and please follow thru! This is a very good first response.
Jim

This started after some of the major networks announced (rumored?) that they're considering dumping over-the-air stations to become "cable networks". It's all because advertising revenues have dropped and they think they can make up that revenue with cable/satellite fees. It's also why more and more local channels are trying to negotiate higher "carriage fees" with cable and satellite companies. At any rate, it's certainly a scary prospect for over-the-air broadcasters.

Here's the NAB news release http://www.nab.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Press_Releases1&CONTENTID=15264&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm

You can find a link to the english and spanish versions of the video there.

Seems like a response to the "White Space" bandwidth land grab that the wireless providers are attempting rather than a response to the rumor that the major OTA networks are considering becoming cable/satellite networks which would probably severe their ties to local broadcasters.

Thank you, Zyland! I'll share the link.
Jim
--------
Here's the NAB news release http://www.nab.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Press_Releases1&CONTENTID=15264&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm

You can find a link to the english and spanish versions of the video there.

Seems like a response to the "White Space" bandwidth land grab that the wireless providers are attempting rather than a response to the rumor that the major OTA networks are considering becoming cable/satellite networks which would probably severe their ties to local broadcasters.

Their home page has been slightly updated with a terse message about the semantics of being "local":

SEATTLE'S ONLY LOCAL TELEVISION COMPANY *

*Puget Sound Television, LLC is a television company, not a station.
To contact the station for questions, including why none of its channels are currently on the air and when they may be returning, please call: (425) 497-1515, ask for Dr. Kenneth Casey.

I took a screen grab and will be posting it. There are also some links to programming and a press release from September announcing a "new" station (KPST).

According to NW Broadcasters, they are installing a microwave system to Tiger Mountain, and will be back on the air soon. What were they using before?

All this would be more impressive if they were actually on the air. All mouth and trousers, this bunch.

Last I heard, their transmit antenna had been barely operating in a damaged state for quite a while. Maybe they are finally having to replace it. Bad time to do that kind of work in the winter months though...

There appears to be some kind of dispute, perhaps? Kenneth Casey at KPST pointed me by email to their site www dot kpst dot biz. That one looks like the previous one (before being broken and redirected to godaddy), but I don't know how it's related to www dot kpsttv dot com.

(Darn, I'm a total newbie and not allowed to post URLs).

Got my CM 2020 paired with a Winegard 8275 amplifier (decided to try this out as it was quite a bit cheaper than the CM-7777). Went with an attic install for now.

Results:
4.1 - Excellent
5.1 - Good
7.1 - Excellent
9.1 - Good
11.1 - Excellent
16.1 - Excellent
22.1 - Good
33.1 - Weak

The odd thing about the 33.1 reception is that my new Samsung tv locks the channel just fine with no dropouts, but my old TV along with my HTPC tuner cards report no signal. If only Ion was at a spot in the UHF band where a jointenna was an option :(
Oh well, I'm really happy with the new antenna- nice construction and it seems to do the trick, even in the attic! The amp is OK I guess, not really a fan of the way Winegard configured the power supply\splitter on this deal.

I'm running my OTA signal over my Satellite wires- had to figure out that some of my splitters didn't accomodate the power pass-through that the sat cables required!

Got my CM 2020 paired with a Winegard 8275 amplifier (decided to try this out as it was quite a bit cheaper than the CM-7777). Went with an attic install for now.

Results:
4.1 - Excellent
5.1 - Good
7.1 - Excellent
9.1 - Good
11.1 - Excellent
16.1 - Excellent
22.1 - Good
33.1 - Weak

The odd thing about the 33.1 reception is that my new Samsung tv locks the channel just fine with no dropouts, but my old TV along with my HTPC tuner cards report no signal. If only Ion was at a spot in the UHF band where a jointenna was an option :(
Oh well, I'm really happy with the new antenna- nice construction and it seems to do the trick, even in the attic! The amp is OK I guess, not really a fan of the way Winegard configured the power supply\splitter on this deal.

I'm running my OTA signal over my Satellite wires- had to figure out that some of my splitters didn't accomodate the power pass-through that the sat cables required!

buckfalfa
Good job!
Nothing odd about 33. Signal is probably not too swift, coming in from the side, and the newer TV has a better tuner able to handle it. There might also be more noise from mixing it with satellite power and signal, and the tuner card can't handle it. Something to try on the card input would be to find a Channelmaster 4002IFD diplexer.
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/CM%20Diplexers.pdf
It has a 40db separation between the satellite and antenna ports, far more than the usual cheapy ones, which are usually only 10db. It might block enough noise and harmonics to get it to work. You only need the one at the card. The regular type can be used to combine the signals. It's when you separate them that it will make a difference.
If not, you could add a second small antenna and separate cable and switch between them.
Dan

buckfalfa
Good job!
Nothing odd about 33. Signal is probably not too swift, coming in from the side, and the newer TV has a better tuner able to handle it. There might also be more noise from mixing it with satellite power and signal, and the tuner card can't handle it. Something to try on the card input would be to find a Channelmaster 4002IFD diplexer.
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/CM%20Diplexers.pdf
It has a 40db separation between the satellite and antenna ports, far more than the usual cheapy ones, which are usually only 10db. It might block enough noise and harmonics to get it to work. You only need the one at the card. The regular type can be used to combine the signals. It's when you separate them that it will make a difference.
If not, you could add a second small antenna and separate cable and switch between them.
Dan

Thanks again for the advice, Dan! I will definitely look at my diplexer options now and will post if I have any success improving my Ion\Qubo reception.

Installed an Antennas Direct DB-8 this past week (in the pouring rain, which started halfway through the day) and an very pleased with it's performance here in West Seattle. I have some old bits of cable to replace (including the lead in from the roof, which has a roofing nail through it!) to improve the performance even more. I'd like to cut off the VHF portion of the old RS antenna I had (see picture) and just use the UHF end pointed the opposite way of the DB-8 to pull in KBTC. I also think I need to invest in a high band VHF for KCTS, KSTW and KCPQ- KCTS comes in now but a bit weak, KSTW comes in full strength and KCPQ not at all.

What is the feasibility of cutting off the VHF part of the old RS antenna and how do I add the resulting UHF part and/or add a high band VHF antenna? Splitters or combiners or Q-13 movie box and what if I want to improve my reception on the UHF signals from Tiger? They come in OK but not super strong. How many antennas can I add to the mix without starting to phase-cancel out the Queen Anne and Capitol Hill signals that I really want to be strong and stable?
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/th_DSCF2781.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/?action=view&current=DSCF2781.jpg)
Old RS antenna (both are clickable thumbnails)
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/th_DSCF2782.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/?action=view&current=DSCF2782.jpg)
DB-8 installed (yes, it is leaning- tripod needs replacing also!)

Val

If you put the old antenna back up, you may want to keep the VHF part also, as KCPQ is west of you (Gold Mtn., near Bremerton). The same content is also broadcast on 22.2 from Capitol Hill (480i), so if you can get KMYQ, you should also get that.

Installed an Antennas Direct DB-8 this past week (in the pouring rain, which started halfway through the day) and an very pleased with it's performance here in West Seattle. I have some old bits of cable to replace (including the lead in from the roof, which has a roofing nail through it!) to improve the performance even more. I'd like to cut off the VHF portion of the old RS antenna I had (see picture) and just use the UHF end pointed the opposite way of the DB-8 to pull in KBTC. I also think I need to invest in a high band VHF for KCTS, KSTW and KCPQ- KCTS comes in now but a bit weak, KSTW comes in full strength and KCPQ not at all.

What is the feasibility of cutting off the VHF part of the old RS antenna and how do I add the resulting UHF part and/or add a high band VHF antenna? Splitters or combiners or Q-13 movie box and what if I want to improve my reception on the UHF signals from Tiger? They come in OK but not super strong. How many antennas can I add to the mix without starting to phase-cancel out the Queen Anne and Capitol Hill signals that I really want to be strong and stable?
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/th_DSCF2781.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/?action=view&current=DSCF2781.jpg)
Old RS antenna (both are clickable thumbnails)
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/th_DSCF2782.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t172/valvashon/?action=view&current=DSCF2782.jpg)
DB-8 installed (yes, it is leaning- tripod needs replacing also!)

Val

Val
Depends on where you are.
Too many options. Send nearest cross streets.
Dan

I hesitate to get too specific. Let's use 34th and Thistle. That puts you in my neighborhood, and puts transmitters at about each point (N, S, E & W) on the compass rose, correct?

Hello everyone,

I just got an OTA antenna for my HDTV, and I get HD programming from all major networks except Fox. I don't get 13.1, but I do get 22.2. All programming for this channel is in 480p though. Why don't they broadcast OTA in HD? Are there any plans to do so in the future?

I hesitate to get too specific. Let's use 34th and Thistle. That puts you in my neighborhood, and puts transmitters at about each point (N, S, E & W) on the compass rose, correct?

Val

First, drop the DB8 down! That's way to high for the little 3ft tripod to support. In a good wind it will tear out the roof or bend the center of the tripod. That antenna has a high wind load.

As long as you're not further over the hill, say at 32nd or east, you should be able to use your RatShack for 9-11-13. Leave the UHF part on, but take off the two reflector arms (the two parts the angle vertically above and below the main boom). The rest will help keep it balanced. Point it roughly at Capital Hill, mount it on the mast about 1ft above the tripod. Ch13 comes from the wrong way, but it's so close and line of sight that it will probably work fine. You could even fudge the aim a little more towards east-west and it should still work for all three. And misaiming 13 will lower it's hot signal keeping you from overloading your tuner. Drop the DB8 down to about 2ft to 3ft above the RS. Try each antenna separately to make sure they don't bother each other when joined. Join the two antennas with a UHF/VHF splitter/combiner, preferably one that's all metal. Seal all the connections well.

Ch28 (actually ch27 HD) is too close to KONG and KMYQ in frequency to couple it in with the DB8 signals. Jointenna couplers have a very wide bandpass, typically about 4 or 5 channels either side of center, and the traps aren't that deep. Instead, use a separate small UHF and downlead. Normally 28 isn't that easy, but you're in an almost line of sight setup for it.

Let us know what happens. If you still have problems, there are other tricks, but it becomes a challenge without a meter.

Dan

Hello everyone,

I just got an OTA antenna for my HDTV, and I get HD programming from all major networks except Fox. I don't get 13.1, but I do get 22.2. All programming for this channel is in 480p though. Why don't they broadcast OTA in HD? Are there any plans to do so in the future?

prthealien

There isn't enough bandwidth in an HD signal to do two channels. One HD and one or two SD are okay. Since some areas block 13, and they own both stations, it's an easy compromise.
What's your nearest cross streets and antenna type?

Dan

prthealien

There isn't enough bandwidth in an HD signal to do two channels. One HD and one or two SD are okay. Since some areas block 13, and they own both stations, it's an easy compromise.
What's your nearest cross streets and antenna type?

Dan

Let's say 8th & Olive in Seattle. This is the antenna I have: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MXZB2/ref=oss_T15_product

Let's say 8th & Olive in Seattle. This is the antenna I have: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MXZB2/ref=oss_T15_product

The rabbit ears are needed for 13. Play with them first.

Has anyone else noticed the audio on KCPQ 22.2 has issues. It seems the level sometimes is extremely low (compared to other local OTA broadcasts). It appears to me that the low level sound is only during the FOX network feed. Last night during the Human Target broadcast the volume was so low I turned it up. During the breaks when a local commercial came on the sound went back to the same (much louder) relative level as other local stations. The same with 24, though the surround content seems disproportionately higher.
I cannot receive 13.1 to compare. Can anyone else that receives 13, compare the audio levels with 22.2 to see if its an issue unique to 22.2.

Let's say 8th & Olive in Seattle. This is the antenna I have: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007MXZB2/ref=oss_T15_product

prthealien
You're in a bad area. There's way too much signal splattering around there, and no clear shot to everything. Indoor antennas there are tough. If you can see the towers on QA Hill or Capital hill, those will work fair, but the rest of out of view will be tough. In the past, analog distribution systems, even done well, were always having little problems. Digital is better, but you have to have enough CLEAN signal to make it work. That's why Cable did well downtown, but only if you used their converter box.
If you want to play with the Terk, turn OFF the amplifier, or get one unamplified. I'm sure your 13 problem is because of the buildings in your way facing west. Also, there isn't much antenna metal on the Terk in the VHF range. The length of arms on an outdoor antenna for 13 should be about 18" to 24". Your 9-11 is working because you're so close.
If you try another indoor, make sure it has rabbit ears, lay them down horizontally, and adjust them to 18" to 24". You probably won't find one spot where they all work, but you never know!
Dan

Hey, Take a look at the video. Out with the analog antenna, and up with a digital top mounted omni.

http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover"]http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover

Hey, Take a look at the video. Out with the analog antenna, and up with a digital top mounted omni.

http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover"]http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover

Nice! I always wonder how folks can climb those tall towers (I have been on a few 20-30 footers, but no higher).

Hopefully it will fill in the hole at my location, since KING and KIRO do fine.

Hey, Take a look at the video. Out with the analog antenna, and up with a digital top mounted omni.

http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover"]http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover

I've seen this show so many times I wouldn't go across the street to see it again. It is nice, however, to see any local broadcaster working to improve their signal. When one of us gets better the whole gets better.

KPST's 44.x channels are still down. The only thing I could see was their carrier signal coming and going, but I guess that doesn't mean much.

Does anyone know what's going on? Did anyone hear anything?

Johnfromkomo,

This is terrific news for me because I am 1Edge to the west of your transmitter, shadowed with NO signal, yet I am less than a mile away from your tower. (I'm right below the QA Boulevard concrete retaining wall / textbook 1Edge!) AAaaack!
------------
* From the article: " ... KOMO's antenna will be the tallest of the three, after construction is completed in early June. But the added height isn't just for show." ...
------------
OKAY! So, how much higher than the previous regional height limitation will the new KOMO super-tower rise to and was it hard to convince the FAA it is necessary? What ERP are you hoping to have accepted (FCC) at that higher height? My guess is quite a bit lower than 405 kW I read on the REC website -- or, did you get lucky and KOMO will become the regional blowtorch?

Attached photos are from this morning, 01/22/10.

Thanks in advance and KUDOS!

Jim

PS I really enjoyed the video and I hope KOMO films others as the project advances.
PPS All three shots were taken within 30 minutes of each other, in spite of what the clouds look like.

------------


[U]johnfromkomo wrote:

Hey, Take a look at the video. Out with the analog antenna, and up with a digital top mounted omni.

http://queenanne.komonews.com/content/komo-tower-gets-makeover

The tower is to have a new uppermost section and top-mounted UHF antenna installed. The new section would allow additional future transmission facilities at the site. The new height is only that needed for a UHF slot antenna.

The new licences is for 880kW ERP. With the top mounted antenna, the coverage should be more uniform. The old side mounted antenna was not omni-directional, as there was a tower in the way. This reduced the radiated energy toward the northwest of the tower.

The new antenna is also designed to have less "beam tilt" than the previous antenna. This will result in lower reception strength for folks near the transmission facility and greater signal strength for folks who live on the edge of the transmission contour.

You can find the technical details here:
"www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=21656"
You will want to pay attention to the licence which is labeled "construction permit."

I have a question for anyone that works at or knows KCPQ Channel 13? I get it in fine, as I have, but on occasion and especially now, it is VERY problematic. The picture comes in fine, but the audio will cut in and out. Often when it cuts out my set will shut off, then turn back on by itself!

This is the ONLY channel I have this problem with and it happens whether my PC, which is hooked to the set via HDMI, is on or not. As I said, this has happened before but never this bad. This time I can't (for the last 20-30 min anyway) get it to stop doing it.

The set is a Samsung 26" TX-R2678WH CRT that is roughly 4 yrs old. I was going to try rescanning in hopes to get a better channel lock on 13, but at this point I'm not even sure that's the problem. I'm at 4th & Vine just about a half mile S/SE of the transmitters on Queen Anne Hill. I'm hooked into our 13 story apt's roof antenna.

I have a question for anyone that works at or knows KCPQ Channel 13? I get it in fine, as I have, but on occasion and especially now, it is VERY problematic. The picture comes in fine, but the audio will cut in and out. Often when it cuts out my set will shut off, then turn back on by itself!

This is the ONLY channel I have this problem with and it happens whether my PC, which is hooked to the set via HDMI, is on or not. As I said, this has happened before but never this bad. This time I can't (for the last 20-30 min anyway) get it to stop doing it.

The set is a Samsung 26" TX-R2678WH CRT that is roughly 4 yrs old. I was going to try rescanning in hopes to get a better channel lock on 13, but at this point I'm not even sure that's the problem. I'm at 4th & Vine just about a half mile S/SE of the transmitters on Queen Anne Hill. I'm hooked into our 13 story apt's roof antenna.

Hi Def Fan
Welcome to the wonderful world of Samsung! They make some great products, but like Sony, can have wierd little "features" that can drive you nuts!
There are two parts to this.
First, this problem was on many of their models from about that time. It's a problem of the automatic input monitoring circuit. Good idea, just not followed through on testing in the real world. On some models you can turn off this feature. Most you can't. Look for any feature that's in the HDMI menu, or in the settings menu where it does automatic settings for coordinating hookups of other Samsung devices, like an AutoSync or something similar. Could also be under Auto Shutoff or Pwer Monitoring. What happens is the TV will turn off anytime it looses video of any flavor or input for more than about 3 seconds. Why they decided on this short a time frame is odd, but that's what happens.
Second, your loss of audio is really a loss of antenna signal. The picture portion is able to remain for a variety of circuit design reasons, but it happens when the tuner is right on the verge of not being able to lock on. Called the avalanche effect. Also happens with picture breakup first, then audio. In any case, the ch13 signal is marginal. I'm surprised that it works at all. Been in many of those buildings around there, most have marginal distribution systems. Ch13 comes from a completely different direction, and since last June, is now back on its original frequency. If no one has been up on the roof to change the antenna, or dial in what's there, it could be a large part of the problem. Also, your PC is not part of the problem.
Ask the manager if anyone has been up on the roof, where the antennas are, doing any maintenance. They may have bumped the ch13 antenna, if it's separate, or moved something.
You might also call Samsung's help line, as they may have a fix for you.
Dan

KPST's 44.x channels are still down. The only thing I could see was their carrier signal coming and going, but I guess that doesn't mean much.

Does anyone know what's going on? Did anyone hear anything?

How can a station be down for so long. Has the business gone belly-up? Not that they showed anything that I'm interested in watching. It would be nice if they could take one of their sub channels and just show old movies and reruns, sorta like RTN, and not go to infomercials during the wee hours! ...that is if they make it back on the air!

How can a station be down for so long. Has the business gone belly-up? Not that they showed anything that I'm interested in watching. It would be nice if they could take one of their sub channels and just show old movies and reruns, sorta like RTN, and not go to infomercials during the wee hours! ...that is if they make it back on the air!
The analog signal for KHCV was off line for over a year before the Nation-wide analog shutdown.

It seems to me that the http://www.kpsttv.com/ website might have just included an explanation for why the station was off air rather than the following:

To contact the station for questions, including why none of its channels are currently on the air and when they may be returning, please call: (425) 497-1515, ask for Dr. Kenneth Casey.

Something like:
#1. Why KPST is currently off air
#2. What KPST is doing to get back on air (if that's the plan)
#3. When this might happen.

Just sayin...

Hi Def Fan
Welcome to the wonderful world of Samsung! They make some great products, but like Sony, can have wierd little "features" that can drive you nuts!
There are two parts to this.
First, this problem was on many of their models from about that time. It's a problem of the automatic input monitoring circuit. Good idea, just not followed through on testing in the real world. On some models you can turn off this feature. Most you can't. Look for any feature that's in the HDMI menu, or in the settings menu where it does automatic settings for coordinating hookups of other Samsung devices, like an AutoSync or something similar. Could also be under Auto Shutoff or Pwer Monitoring. What happens is the TV will turn off anytime it looses video of any flavor or input for more than about 3 seconds. Why they decided on this short a time frame is odd, but that's what happens.
Second, your loss of audio is really a loss of antenna signal. The picture portion is able to remain for a variety of circuit design reasons, but it happens when the tuner is right on the verge of not being able to lock on. Called the avalanche effect. Also happens with picture breakup first, then audio. In any case, the ch13 signal is marginal. I'm surprised that it works at all. Been in many of those buildings around there, most have marginal distribution systems. Ch13 comes from a completely different direction, and since last June, is now back on its original frequency. If no one has been up on the roof to change the antenna, or dial in what's there, it could be a large part of the problem. Also, your PC is not part of the problem.
Ask the manager if anyone has been up on the roof, where the antennas are, doing any maintenance. They may have bumped the ch13 antenna, if it's separate, or moved something.
You might also call Samsung's help line, as they may have a fix for you.
DanThanks Dan, checked the menu and service menu. No such options in the regular menu. In OPTION in the service menu there was a AutoPower Off/On and HDMI Off/On. All settings in OPTION are values of 1 or 0, so I figured like computer script switches, 1 means enabled, 0 disabled. AutoPower was set to 0 and HDMI to 1. I tried changing each setting and don't see any change with AutoPower but when HDMI is set to 0 there's no HDMI input option in the TV menu. So, likely AutoPower is that feature you spoke of and by default it's off. Only reason I tried enabling it in service menu was in hopes it would make it show in the TV menu and I could verify whether it's on or off.

I also tried using some old brass RCA rabbit ears I have , which have an attenuator built in, but 13 won't come in at all that way. With the tall building west of us, the roof antenna is required to get anything at all. Some in this building claim they've gotten the $60 Radio Shack digital antenna to work with their converter boxes, but as little as I use 13, it's not worth it to me.

Our apt management has said they don't plan to put anymore labor or replacement cost into the roof antenna. There's been talk of a possible sat dish, but last I heard it may have fizzled out to another cable provider option instead.

Bummer about Sony's having quirks too, as I was thinking of going with a KDL-32XBR9 for my next set. Only negative I read about them was some not liking the auto contrast feature, but it can be turned off and Sony even came out with a firmware update to fix it from acting up. If you know of any other quirks on that set though, please elaborate.

I guess I can still call Samsung, but I have a feeling they'll just say the signal is too weak here. I really don't get why this happened all of a sudden though. The night before I had watched the NFC Championship game in it's entirety with zero problems. That's why I asked here. I was wondering if some high rise construction in the area or something else is causing temporary interference that's greater than usual.

The new antenna is also designed to have less "beam tilt" than the previous antenna. This will result in lower reception strength



I think he meant to say 'lower field strength'. Lower reception strength wouldn't be an improvement

... This will result in lower reception strength for folks near the transmission facility and greater signal strength for folks who live on the edge of the transmission contour. ...
It sounded like there was a downside to people nearby, even though it's probably an overall improvement.

Well, if you're closer in, weak signal isn't your problem; reflections due to multipath are the bigger issue. Less power closer in can reduce the harm those reflections do to reception.

- Trip

Thanks Dan, checked the menu and service menu. No such options in the regular menu. In OPTION in the service menu there was a AutoPower Off/On and HDMI Off/On. All settings in OPTION are values of 1 or 0, so I figured like computer script switches, 1 means enabled, 0 disabled. AutoPower was set to 0 and HDMI to 1. I tried changing each setting and don't see any change with AutoPower but when HDMI is set to 0 there's no HDMI input option in the TV menu. So, likely AutoPower is that feature you spoke of and by default it's off. Only reason I tried enabling it in service menu was in hopes it would make it show in the TV menu and I could verify whether it's on or off.

I also tried using some old brass RCA rabbit ears I have , which have an attenuator built in, but 13 won't come in at all that way. With the tall building west of us, the roof antenna is required to get anything at all. Some in this building claim they've gotten the $60 Radio Shack digital antenna to work with their converter boxes, but as little as I use 13, it's not worth it to me.

Our apt management has said they don't plan to put anymore labor or replacement cost into the roof antenna. There's been talk of a possible sat dish, but last I heard it may have fizzled out to another cable provider option instead.

Bummer about Sony's having quirks too, as I was thinking of going with a KDL-32XBR9 for my next set. Only negative I read about them was some not liking the auto contrast feature, but it can be turned off and Sony even came out with a firmware update to fix it from acting up. If you know of any other quirks on that set though, please elaborate.

I guess I can still call Samsung, but I have a feeling they'll just say the signal is too weak here. I really don't get why this happened all of a sudden though. The night before I had watched the NFC Championship game in it's entirety with zero problems. That's why I asked here. I was wondering if some high rise construction in the area or something else is causing temporary interference that's greater than usual.

Hi Def Fan
Sony has some quirks, but they're not major problems, as everyone knows about them, and nothing that can't be changed or disabled, unlike the Samsung. You won't have that problem with one of them. Just installed a 52XBR9 for a customer, worked well, lots of adjustments. Read the Forum, here, for details on the recommended settings. For an LCD, good picture.
For now, call Samsung. I'm sure they're aware of the problem, and will have an answer, good or bad. They're good people to work with.
Even though you watched a ch13 program previously, and it appeared to be fine, that's what makes digital reception deceiving. You could've been right on the very minimum amount required, and it will look exactly like having the maximum amount. You would never know. It could even say 100% on the "strength" indicator, and still have been ready to act up at any time. Buildings in the way are a common problem in downtown, so investing in another indoor antenna would be a coin toss. If the building manager has already been there, probably not much else they'll do.
Your building will probably go Cable rather than satellite, as infrastructure will be cheaper for them. Also easier for tennants, as Cable provides receivers, nothing to buy. Give them a nudge!
Dan

Even though you watched a ch13 program previously, and it appeared to be fine, that's what makes digital reception deceiving. You could've been right on the very minimum amount required, and it will look exactly like having the maximum amount. You would never know. It could even say 100% on the "strength" indicator, and still have been ready to act up at any time. Buildings in the way are a common problem in downtown, so investing in another indoor antenna would be a coin toss. If the building manager has already been there, probably not much else they'll do. This is precisely what's so frustrating about ATSC OTA reception.
Your building will probably go Cable rather than satellite, as infrastructure will be cheaper for them. Also easier for tenants, as Cable provides receivers, nothing to buy. Give them a nudge! Dan I agree. My sense is that the reception problems associated with ATSC digital reception have had the effect of increasing consumer adoption of cable/satellite services. In much of the Seattle area, one has to be either a hard-core video hobbyist or someone dogmatically opposed to paying to watch TV to deal with the quirky nature of ATSC OTA reception. The OTA PQ is usually somewhat superior, but it's a hassle many people give up on unless they can invest in a first-rate outdoor antenna installation.

Those silly little signal strength indicators may prove to be the bain of my existence. Keep in mind though, that with digital it's all about the receivers ability to recover bits. Nothing else matters. Not multi-path, not signal strength, nothing.... UH? you say.... Many of those things will affect the ability of the receiver to recover bits but in the end the only thing that matters is if the receiver can or not.

Digitals biggest blessing is also proving out to be its biggest curse. It works perfectly. Right up to the point where it doesn't work anymore and then it JUST STOPS. Quickly and a lot.

FWIW: This digital 'cliff' problem is not a problem confined to TV. HD Radio has it. Cell phones have it. Heck, my old school Motorola pager has it.

Hi Def Fan
Sony has some quirks, but they're not major problems, as everyone knows about them, and nothing that can't be changed or disabled, unlike the Samsung. You won't have that problem with one of them. Just installed a 52XBR9 for a customer, worked well, lots of adjustments. Read the Forum, here, for details on the recommended settings. For an LCD, good picture.
For now, call Samsung. I'm sure they're aware of the problem, and will have an answer, good or bad. They're good people to work with.
Even though you watched a ch13 program previously, and it appeared to be fine, that's what makes digital reception deceiving. You could've been right on the very minimum amount required, and it will look exactly like having the maximum amount. You would never know. It could even say 100% on the "strength" indicator, and still have been ready to act up at any time. Buildings in the way are a common problem in downtown, so investing in another indoor antenna would be a coin toss. If the building manager has already been there, probably not much else they'll do.
Your building will probably go Cable rather than satellite, as infrastructure will be cheaper for them. Also easier for tennants, as Cable provides receivers, nothing to buy. Give them a nudge!
DanWell I talked to Samsung and a guy at KCPQ and Samsung was no help at all. Both suggested an attempted reset, neither knowing if my set had such an option. As far as I can tell the only reset my set has is in the Picture options, which has nothing to do with reception. As far as I'm concerned Samsung knows they designed these sets poorly, and refuses to acknowledge it or do anything about it. Is it so much to ask when you call them for tech help they at least look up your model of set and TRY to familiarize themselves with it? They seem to have no one to answer tech questions, instead you just get some customer service person. BTW, I called on a weekday during business hours too.

As far as I'm concerned, Samsung will get no more business from me, period. I may get that 32XBR9 soon.The guy at KCPQ was far more familiar with the problem than the person at Samsung, whom was clueless. He suggested talking to someone else whom knows the Samsungs well, but was not there at the time. I wrote his name down but can't find it right now. I think it was Dave Black or something.


As for the problem, it comes and goes. Some nights I can watch 13 fine with no interruptions, tonight it's having audio dropouts again, so it keeps shutting off. I get the feeling this has something to do with new construction and/or high power equipment just west of me because it didn't do this before. So I'm thinking about all I can do is try and find out what is causing the change in reception and somehow determine if there's anything I can do about it, if it's temporary or permanent, and what nights if it IS permanent are likely to render 13 unviewable.

Well I talked to Samsung and a guy at KCPQ and Samsung was no help at all. Both suggested an attempted reset, neither knowing if my set had such an option. As far as I can tell the only reset my set has is in the Picture options, which has nothing to do with reception. As far as I'm concerned Samsung knows they designed these sets poorly, and refuses to acknowledge it or do anything about it. Is it so much to ask when you call them for tech help they at least look up your model of set and TRY to familiarize themselves with it? They seem to have no one to answer tech questions, instead you just get some customer service person. BTW, I called on a weekday during business hours too.

As far as I'm concerned, Samsung will get no more business from me, period. I may get that 32XBR9 soon.The guy at KCPQ was far more familiar with the problem than the person at Samsung, whom was clueless. He suggested talking to someone else whom knows the Samsungs well, but was not there at the time. I wrote his name down but can't find it right now. I think it was Dave Black or something.


As for the problem, it comes and goes. Some nights I can watch 13 fine with no interruptions, tonight it's having audio dropouts again, so it keeps shutting off. I get the feeling this has something to do with new construction and/or high power equipment just west of me because it didn't do this before. So I'm thinking about all I can do is try and find out what is causing the change in reception and somehow determine if there's anything I can do about it, if it's temporary or permanent, and what nights if it IS permanent are likely to render 13 unviewable.

Hi Def Fan
What are you nearest cross streets? I'll check it out.
I'm a little surprised the Samsung people gave you the runaround. But then every comapny has few support people that just go for the easy answers. Resetting, either through a menu or just pulling the power plug for a bit, is the common suggestion. I found it rarely works with reception problems. In any case, since the other channels seem to be okay, lets see if we can fix the 13 reception problem. Will probably be cheaper than a new set.
Dan

It's annoying me that KPST is still off the air - AAT and MBC-D were the only channels (aside from PBS) that I watched.

It's annoying me that KPST is still off the air - AAT and MBC-D were the only channels (aside from PBS) that I watched.

Same here. I was enjoying almost-live news programs on MBC-D, and boom! just like that it's gone.

It's annoying me that KPST is still off the air - AAT and MBC-D were the only channels (aside from PBS) that I watched. Perhaps KPST should face loss of its FCC license if it doesn't actively use its assigned bandwidth.

Stations can be off the air for a year before facing loss of license.

- Trip

Perhaps KPST should face loss of its FCC license if it doesn't actively use its assigned bandwidth.

Per Northwest Broadcasters:

"North Pacific International Television has filed Notification of Suspension of Operations/Request for Silent STA with the FCC for KPST-TV Seattle. The reason given is, "The station was evicted from its main studio and has relocated to a place from which its STL cannot be operated. It is seeking a combination of optical fiber and wireless facilities to allow broadcasting to resume. Hopefully it will not take more than another few weeks to make arrangements."


FCC filing - see Exhibit 1 on the bottom:

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101354969&formid=910&fac_num=49264

Per Northwest Broadcasters:

"North Pacific International Television has filed Notification of Suspension of Operations/Request for Silent STA with the FCC for KPST-TV Seattle. The reason given is, "The station was evicted from its main studio and has relocated to a place from which its STL cannot be operated. It is seeking a combination of optical fiber and wireless facilities to allow broadcasting to resume. Hopefully it will not take more than another few weeks to make arrangements."


FCC filing - see Exhibit 1 on the bottom:

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101354969&formid=910&fac_num=49264

Evicted from their main studios??? I'm imagining TV equipment and racks piled up on the boulevard, like you see mattresses and dressers outside low-rent apartments near the end of the month. Why not relocate to a place where your STL can be operated from? Look around a bit, there is a boatload of empty commercial space available here in the Puget Sound area. Optical fiber and wireless (?) will cost more to operate than setting up your STL- microwave is free once you get it set up. They didn't relocate to any place that the STL can operate from because they are out of money. 0% that this thing returns to the air under the present owners.

Which is fine, since they appear to be a bunch of jokers.

Harsh? Sure I am, but I've worked for people like this- clowns who thought it would be "fun" to have a TV station.

Val

[I]- clowns who thought it would be "fun" to have a TV station. Val

That's a very general statement. It also describes the great J P Patches when he owned a percentage of a Roseburg station (if memory is correct). It could also describe the first years of the life of KIRO-7, when some in the local industry thought they were really shoddy compared to KOMO and KING.

Evicted from their main studios??? I'm imagining TV equipment and racks piled up on the boulevard, like you see mattresses and dressers outside low-rent apartments near the end of the month. Why not relocate to a place where your STL can be operated from? Look around a bit, there is a boatload of empty commercial space available here in the Puget Sound area. Optical fiber and wireless (?) will cost more to operate than setting up your STL- microwave is free once you get it set up. They didn't relocate to any place that the STL can operate from because they are out of money. 0% that this thing returns to the air under the present owners........Which is fine, since they appear to be a bunch of jokers.........Harsh? Sure I am, but I've worked for people like this- clowns who thought it would be "fun" to have a TV station.......Val KPST and its predecessor KHCV bring up memories of the "Weird" Al Jankovic film UHF (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098546/). In fairness to KPST/KHCV, we have a few other subprime OTA stations hogging scarce bandwidth, such as Bellingham's KBCB (nothing locally produced, just ShopNBC all the time) and KWPX (no locally-produced content reflecting its Bellevue city of license - other than QUBO cartoons and worship channel, it's just the uninspiring ION and ION Life network feeds and infomercials).

The real irony is that when KPST/KHCV was on the air, it was one of the strongest, most stable OTA signals at my location. Why doesn't a major league station with major league $ resources (i.e. KING) buy KPST's license and transmitter location?

I wonder if KOMO is operating at reduced power during their antenna move? I am having a hard time picking up 4.1 (normally comes in strong) and it is not coming through from my cable provider either.

KPST
The real irony is that when KPST/KHCV was on the air, it was one of the strongest, most stable OTA signals at my location. Why doesn't a major league station with major league $ resources (i.e. KING) buy KPST's license and transmitter location?

The station is one of many broadcasting from West Tiger Mt. If you live on the East Side, you probably get a pretty good signal from there.

Nobody is buying TV stations these days due to the economy. KING already owns two stations in the market, KING and KONG. Owning any more would violate the ownership caps established by the FCC.

teeitup,

I can't address your question directly, but I returned to their antenna site last Friday. Aside from some plants having been removed, there 'appeared' to be no progress on the changeover and there was no reason to shoot any more photos. Perhaps there was a delay in the delivery of their new tower top sections. If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll buzz by and check again. Stay tuned.

Jim

It's sort of a melancholy day here at KCTS. I'm watching my electricians remove the last of the power system that fed the old analog transmitters. It's really the last remains in the building of that system. For those that understand, the power isolation transformer for the 'B' transmitter, is coming down off the ceiling and heading to the scrap yard today.

Farewell my good and faithful friend. Farewell.

I wonder if KOMO is operating at reduced power during their antenna move? I am having a hard time picking up 4.1 (normally comes in strong) and it is not coming through from my cable provider either.
There are people working on the tower. I'm sure that when they get close to the radiating elements, power is reduced for the safety of the construction people. Notice that the top portion of the tower is gone. There is construction gear all over the lawn and parking lot at the transmitter site. What cable company is not picking them up during low-power operation? I wonder if the station knows.

It's sort of a melancholy day here at KCTS. I'm watching my electricians remove the last of the power system that fed the old analog transmitters. It's really the last remains in the building of that system. For those that understand, the power isolation transformer for the 'B' transmitter, is coming down off the ceiling and heading to the scrap yard today.

Farewell my good and faithful friend. Farewell.
I've watched the analog KCTS since moving here in 89 until I switched to digital a few years back. So long and thanks for all the pledge drives :) Just was watching Frontline last night...great programming.

I'm watching my electricians remove the last of the power system that fed the old analog transmitters.

I doubt this would have been their very first transmitter, but do you know when this one was installed? I think the first trans was a gift from KING.

I doubt this would have been their very first transmitter, but do you know when this one was installed? I think the first trans was a gift from KING.
-----------------------------------------------
rdvegas,

I think you are partly right. I remember as a child in the mid 1960s attending (with Dear old Dad) several annual Engineering Open House events at the U of W and the KCTS equipment on display was definately old for the day. I remember running past their camera and watching myself on a tv set as a blur, almost 'white-noise'. It was pretty cool, as a kid!

At the time, KCTS 9 ran local educational 'shows' directed to the community at large -- and I was forced to learn some Spanish in my Elementary School Classrooms from Senior Ibarra ... escutcheon, repeata!

Then, something changed and their signal somehow landed at my home (new) and he was in my face again (Aaaaack!) and I do recall them thanking another station. It may have been KING.
Jim

PS I also remember KTVW, the Channel 13 at the time with their barn-burning 250 watt signal eminating from the Tacoma tide flats (30 miles south of me). They featured two local hosts, Stu Martin (who looked like a wombat) and Bob Corcoran. My Mother watched them all the time.

I watched the Willie Muskonie VS Minnesota Fats pool games and honestly, I was fascinated and I probably learned a LOT of geometry from them, but I never was any good at pool, however, I earned my Professional rating at Foosball. It's the same geometry, but far faster ... and its a mind game too.

PS I also remember KTVW, the Channel 13 at the time with their barn-burning 250 watt signal eminating from the Tacoma tide flats (30 miles south of me). They featured two local hosts, Stu Martin (who looked like a wombat) and Bob Corcoran. My Mother watched them all the time.

I too watched KTVW lucky 13 all the time from my south Everett location. Their 214kw signal was a tough catch. KTVW had the worst movie package of any Seattle station, yet they were interesting to watch.

It was my pleasure to direct Stu Martin in the early 70's at Channel 3 Inc in Everett, a cable-origination station. This was a prototype joint venture of CBS Viacom and the legendary Wally Nelskog (Cutie radio stations).

I doubt this would have been their very first transmitter, but do you know when this one was installed? I think the first trans was a gift from KING.

The transmitter that was donated by Mrs. Bullit was never in the current building on 18th and Madison. That transmitter was installed at The Edison Technical Institute on Broadway. That building today has undergone substantial remodeling and is now Seattle Central Community College. It went on the air from Edison on December 7, 1954 at 1900 hours.

The current building, which has also undergone substantial remodeling and upgrades over the years, was begun in late 1962 and went on the air in May of 1964. The transmitter at the time was single RCA. Sometime in the mid-70's it was upgraded for color and joined by a second RCA. In the mid 80's the RCA's were replaced by a pair of NEC 1435A 35KW transmitters which allowed, among other things, stereo audio and two channels of SAP operation. These were the first transmitter purchased brand new for KCTS. The transformer I removed (Well OK, I sat here and watched my electricians remove it....) recently was one of two isolation transformers for the NEC's. This particular one had serviced the 'B' side NEC.

In early 1998 the analog NEC's were joined by a Harris CD100P1 transmitter outfitted for digital ATSC operation on channel 41. On September 12, 1998 KCTS-DT41 hit the air with a live broadcast of the Seattle Symphony's priemere concert at Benaroya Hall making it the first PBS station in the country to operate with a production line ATSC digital transmitter. History will record that this the first live remote HD telecast in North America. History will also record that KOMO was first to air in Seattle with a production transmission system. The same history will record that KCTS was on the air at the time with an experimental rig operating on channel 18 but spitting a psuedo random bit stream without programming. Who was first? Depends on how you ask the question but personally I think KOMO deserves the nod.

In October of 2008 the 'A' side NEC was decomissioned and removed from the building. Towards the end of that month I traveled to Munich, Germany for acceptance testing of our new Rohde & Schwarz all solid state NV7000 transmitter. That rig was built to operate digitally on physical channel 9 and was delivered and installed in late November and early December of 2008 and was well tested and ready for the mandated February 17, 2009 cutover date.

In January of 2009 that date was pushed back to June 12, 2009. At that time KCTS ascertained that the remaining NEC and the power amplifier tube in it were likely to go the distance and elected to continue to operate analog until the June date.

Analog operation on channel 9 and digital operation on channel 41 continued to operate without incident until June 12, 2009. At 0400 on the 12th I shut down the remaining analog NEC and the digital Harris and put power to the brand new Rohde rig and analog broadcasting on channel 9 came to an end.

Since that time the Rohde has been off the air twice. Once for about three seconds to power hit in the building and the other time for about 45 minutes to allow a rigger to climb the antenna and change the light bulb at the top. Other than those two times the Rohde has continued to operate and has had no major incidents of any sort.

An interesting note: KCTS was the first PBS station in the country to operate in digital. It was also the last major market station of any network in the country to make the jump to color not doing so until the second RCA was installed in the mid 70's.

I talked to the owner of the Company working on the KOMO tower today and for those who currently are having reception problems (as I am) I'm sorry to report their work is expected to take another two month. The entire tower is undergoing reinforcement, all of the cross-bracing will be replaced and the top sections have yet to be installed. I'm not sure in what order all of this this will take place.

This is the same local Company (based near Mt. Pilchuck) that rebuilt the KIRO tower last summer as well as the Mt. Sutro tower and one in Sacramento. I asked if he knew of plans for the KING tower and he says KING is working on the engineering and it has not yet come up for bid.

Attached are three photos I shot this morning.
Jim

I too watched KTVW lucky 13 all the time from my south Everett location. Their 214kw signal was a tough catch. KTVW had the worst movie package of any Seattle station, yet they were interesting to watch.

It was my pleasure to direct Stu Martin in the early 70's at Channel 3 Inc in Everett, a cable-origination station. This was a prototype joint venture of CBS Viacom and the legendary Wally Nelskog (Cutie radio stations).
------------------------------------------------------
rdvegas,
What year/s was KTVW 214 kW? The 'Bladon-Station days? I'm pretty sure they anounced 250 watts nightly at sign-off, but this was in the early 1960's.

Do you remember Bob Corcoran's talk show where callers asked questions to the telephone staff, they wrote them down of slips of paper and he read and answered them on the air? That had to be around 1968.
Jim

I talked to the owner of the Company working on the KOMO tower today and for those who currently are having reception problems (as I am) I'm sorry to report their work is expected to take another two month. The entire tower is undergoing reinforcement, all of the cross-bracing will be replaced and the top sections have yet to be installed. I'm not sure in what order all of this this will take place.

This is the same local Company (based near Mt. Pilchuck) that rebuilt the KIRO tower last summer as well as the Mt. Sutro tower and one in Sacramento. I asked if he knew of plans for the KING tower and he says KING is working on the engineering and it has not yet come up for bid.

Attached are three photos I shot this morning.
Jim
While the tower work will continue, I have it on good authority that KOMO's intent is to have their new antenna operational the 1st week of March. It will be omni-directional (unlike the present cardiod pattern of side-mounted antennas) and have some vertical component radiation.

This is the same local Company (based near Mt. Pilchuck) that rebuilt the KIRO tower last summer as well as the Mt. Sutro tower and one in Sacramento.

Jim

Seacomm Erectors is the only "heavy lift" tower company in the area that most of the local broadcasters will deal with. They're not cheap, but they're good, they're safe, they understand what we, as broadcasters, go through.

I had them on the KCTS tower one year on Christmas Eve in a freakin' driving rain storm to repair a piece of microwave feed line. They didn't even argue when I made the call. The bill was large but the job got done correctly and quickly.

PS I also remember KTVW, the Channel 13 at the time with their barn-burning 250 watt signal emanating from the Tacoma tide flats (30 miles south of me). They featured two local hosts, Stu Martin (who looked like a wombat) and Bob Corcoran. My Mother watched them all the time.

I watched the Willie Muskonie VS Minnesota Fats pool games and honestly, I was fascinated and I probably learned a LOT of geometry from them, but I never was any good at pool, however, I earned my Professional rating at Foosball. It's the same geometry, but far faster ... and its a mind game too. I recall the old KTVW channel 13 as well. KTVW remained B&W until sometime in the mid-1970s - remember what a big deal it was when they finally got color? I recall the Bob Corcoran show, the frequent Three Stooges programs, and advertisements for Tacoma's B&I Shopping Center. At least they had locally-produced content, unlike today's KWPX or KBCB.

Wow, 44.1 (informercials?) and 44.3 (AAT TV) are back. Just thought I'd let you know guys.

Thanks to tschall for the historical accounting of KCTS. I well remember when they signed on. I clipped a full page ad from Broadcasting magazine in the mid 70's that showed a KCTS studio with their new color cameras. I may still have that ad filed away somewhere.

As for my statement that KTVW ran at 214kw...this is from memory. However, I'm quite sure that in the early 70's both KTNT and KTVW were at 214kw. KTNT had a better stick location as far as reaching south Everett than did KTVW. I was up on the roof adjusting our family antenna frequently trying to better the picture of the Chubby Howard show, or Look and Listen, or Penny and Her Pals.

Corcoran had a lot of people who called-in, but perhaps the most memorable for me was about 1971 when Stu Martin called-in to Bob. This occurred during one of Martin's Saturday night shows at Everett's Channel 3. Thus it was one live TV show calling into another live TV show. Stu stood beside a monitor switched to KTVW which allowed for a two-shot of Stu and Bob. Bob was in B&W, since KTVW did not have any color equipment yet. Stu was in color, and kidded Bob with that fact. Channel 3 had video tape while KTVW did not. It was a clever bit seen by very few people at either end.

There are people working on the tower. I'm sure that when they get close to the radiating elements, power is reduced for the safety of the construction people. Notice that the top portion of the tower is gone. There is construction gear all over the lawn and parking lot at the transmitter site. What cable company is not picking them up during low-power operation? I wonder if the station knows.

My cable company is Wave Broadband. I posted a question (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18076619#post18076619) over on the Seattle Comcast forum since there isn't one for Wave Cable. I just lost the KOMO clear-QAM HD feed through my cable company, but they are still sending the SD feeds. So I doubt it is due to Komo's antenna move. Luckily I can get the HD feed OTA with my antenna, although signal strength is spotty right now. Hopefully the new antenna will help that.

My cable company is Wave Broadband. I posted a question (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18076619#post18076619) over on the Seattle Comcast forum since there isn't one for Wave Cable. I just lost the KOMO clear-QAM HD feed through my cable company, but they are still sending the SD feeds. So I doubt it is due to Komo's antenna move. Luckily I can get the HD feed OTA with my antenna, although signal strength is spotty right now. Hopefully the new antenna will help that.

Have you tried calling them? I understand that the average customer (dis)service rep doesn't have a clue but it is someplace to start. Perhaps they don't know.

An interesting note: KCTS was the first PBS station in the country to operate in digital. It was also the last major market station of any network in the country to make the jump to color not doing so until the second RCA was installed in the mid 70's.

For trivia's sake, I know of one in a somewhat smaller market that held out a DECADE more: WQEX (at the time, the secondary PBS station in Pittsburgh) only made the jump to color in the mid 80s when their 50s-era transmitter failed. (WQED, the primary PBS station, had, of course, switched over long before.)

For trivia's sake, I know of one in a somewhat smaller market that held out a DECADE more: WQEX (at the time, the secondary PBS station in Pittsburgh) only made the jump to color in the mid 80s when their 50s-era transmitter failed. (WQED, the primary PBS station, had, of course, switched over long before.)

Those small markets do crop up some oddities. Our analog station in Yakima, KYVE, was the only station in the Yakima valley to ever operate with stereo audio. I actually called my buddy at Charter and told him I thought something was wrong with the cable in my hotel before I found out that we were it.

We went by the site this afternoon and the new top tower sections are already up. They are now installing new coax sections and are about 1/4 of the way to the top.

I asked the boss about the time schedule for the new antenna to be functioning and I quoted Myron (above): "KOMO's intent is to have their new antenna operational the 1st week of March". He reponded: the antenna will be delivered this coming Friday and we will have it up well before March 1st.

I also mentioned tschall and his Christmas Eve story (above) and he simply smiled and said: "that's what we do". He's a very nice guy and he is quite willing to share information for us.

A few photos from today are attached below. Sorry, for some reason, my #2 photo is repeatedly rejected. Stay tuned.

Jim

Several here remember Bob Corcoran's Show and I remember watching the 'side-by-side' show rdvegas talked about (above) on a B&W set unfortunately. Their dialogue actually made complete sense to me at the time because some people on my paper route actually had color tv's. By the way, even in B&W Stu Martin's image was much clearer than Bob's. On a tangent, one of my customers had a clear vinyl (?) sheet stuck to his B&W screen that 'faked' color TV. I recall those being offered for sale at the time from mail-order Companies. WOW and thanks for the memories rdvegas!

I first posted wondering if anyone remembered Bob's odd talk show, where he answered questions called to the station and he was given small pieces of paper with the questions to respond to ... and ... I was a VICTUM of his show!

I was around 11 or 12 years of age and it was a hot Summer night. I had invited a friend to spend the night here in my tree house. It had electricity to it via Dad's 'serious' extention cords as well as a battery powered hard-wired telephone system I setup. That particular night we 'borrowed' Mom's personal (13"?) GE portable TV set (purchased at Bartell's) and apparently at some point, she thought we should turn out the lights, the TV set and go to sleep and yes we were watching Bob Corcoran.

--- I can see the following in my mind as clear today as if it happened yesterday ---

Bob read the note - smiled - and somehow motioned to the camera man to be prepared to zoom in to his face ...

He read the note on air (zoom, now) and he sternly addressed us BY OUR NAMES and he ORDERED US to go to turn off the television and go to sleep! AAAACCCCCCCK! We turned out the lights and the TV and whispered to each other. How did he know we were watching him???? Too funny. Thanks Mom!

The point: the kids of today will never have an experience like my friend and I have to refect back upon and I guess that's called progress, for lack of a better word.
Jim

Does anybody know if local Seattle Kiro will cease multicasting and dedicate their full bandwidth to the main channel for the superbowl?

It appears on their website that they will continue broadcasting a subchannel through the superbowl.

That is asinine.

Thanks to Jim in Seattle for those KTVW memories.

Thinking this is KIRO and not my setup. I have my 32" Magnavox Hi-Def TV fed by an antenna through my stereo via the headphone jack, so it is just straight stereo- no surround sound. The audio for the game seems to be going in and out of stereo- first it's wide and then there is no separation. Do you suppose this is a KIRO thing or is this a network thing? Add to that the extreme pixelization when the movement is very fast and I'm not really liking CBS's handling of the Super Bowl. The Who just got done and the sound and video looked fine for that.

Val

KIRO kind of starves their main channel. I've noticed during regular season games it can look pretty nasty. Don't know what their 7.1 bandwidth is. I watched it on WTVH which is the local CBS station in Syracuse, NY and they use their entire channel bandwidth for their only channel at 17.64 Mbps. The superbowl looked fantastic, very very little macroblocking. Heck, even the confetti at the end wasn't ridiculously pixelated. I wish more stations did this...the local PBS station has a 1080i HD channel with three 480i subchannels. It can get pretty blurry and blocky when anything big moves.

should note that KPST has two of its channels back up as of last Thursday - the 'main' station has resumed on 44.1 and AAT is on 44.3 again. still nothing on 44.2 and 44.4...

KIRO kind of starves their main channel. I've noticed during regular season games it can look pretty nasty. Don't know what their 7.1 bandwidth is. I watched it on WTVH which is the local CBS station in Syracuse, NY and they use their entire channel bandwidth for their only channel at 17.64 Mbps. The superbowl looked fantastic, very very little macroblocking. Heck, even the confetti at the end wasn't ridiculously pixelated. I wish more stations did this...the local PBS station has a 1080i HD channel with three 480i subchannels. It can get pretty blurry and blocky when anything big moves.

Most of that is because of 1080I (interlaced scanning) at the prescribed refresh rate of roughly 30 FPS. Progressive scanning (720P or 1080P), is much better for sports or fast motion because it's refresh rate is 59.94 FPS or twice the rate of 1080I. Broadcast standards don't currently allow for 1080P, which would be optimum, especially at 120FPS found on Blu Ray DVD.

We went by the site this afternoon and the new top tower sections are already up. They are now installing new coax sections and are about 1/4 of the way to the top.

I asked the boss about the time schedule for the new antenna to be functioning and I quoted Myron (above): "KOMO's intent is to have their new antenna operational the 1st week of March". He reponded: the antenna will be delivered this coming Friday and we will have it up well before March 1st.

I also mentioned tschall and his Christmas Eve story (above) and he simply smiled and said: "that's what we do". He's a very nice guy and he is quite willing to share information for us.

A few photos from today are attached below. Sorry, for some reason, my #2 photo is repeatedly rejected. Stay tuned.

Jim
Just because the antenna might be on the top of the tower does not mean its been tested and fully integrated into their system.

Just because the antenna might be on the top of the tower does not mean its been tested and fully integrated into their system.
--------------------------
Myron,
The way he said he had 'already' ordered the antenna and other statements led us to believe their work is ahead of schedule. Hopefully so.
Jim

As far as transmit antennas go of the type that KOMO and almost every other station uses including KCTS, they're not 'off the shelf' things. Everyone of them is custom built for the customers individual application and the tower they are to be mounted on. They're ordered months, sometimes a year or more, ahead of schedule.

It's been my experience that due to the fact that the antenna manufacturer is building most of these as custom jobs AND they don't have immediate access to the tower they'll be mounted on and have to guess, that most of them are not perfect out of the crate.

I don't work for KOMO and I certainly can't speak them, nor would I try but I'd guess that they'll have to tweak their antenna, possibly their feed system and god forbid they run into something like we did when we hung channel 41. One of the feed flanges to the UHF antenna wasn't right and it looked for a bit like we'd have to bring it back down to repair it. Ultimately, the guys at Seacom (Same company that's doing the KOMO work) were able to fix it up in the air and it has held ever since.

All this to say, that Myron is correct. Just because it's on the tower and attached to the feed line does not mean that it is serviceable.

As far as transmit antennas go of the type that KOMO and almost every other station uses including KCTS, they're not 'off the shelf' things. Everyone of them is custom built for the customers individual application and the tower they are to be mounted on. They're ordered months, sometimes a year or more, ahead of schedule.

It's been my experience that due to the fact that the antenna manufacturer is building most of these as custom jobs AND they don't have immediate access to the tower they'll be mounted on and have to guess, that most of them are not perfect out of the crate.

I don't work for KOMO and I certainly can't speak them, nor would I try but I'd guess that they'll have to tweak their antenna, possibly their feed system and god forbid they run into something like we did when we hung channel 41. One of the feed flanges to the UHF antenna wasn't right and it looked for a bit like we'd have to bring it back down to repair it. Ultimately, the guys at Seacom (Same company that's doing the KOMO work) were able to fix it up in the air and it has held ever since.

All this to say, that Myron is correct. Just because it's on the tower and attached to the feed line does not mean that it is serviceable.
---------------------------
tschall,
I'm sure you're right. You should have seen them trying to mate the new top sections on the ground for the KIRO tower last summer. The entire crew rotated through and spent an entire day swinging sledge hammers to get the sections to fit together. It made me wonder what would happen when they tried to mate new to old in the sky.

Regarding what I wrote about him ordering the antenna, perhaps I should have used another word in my poorly written sentence: He ordered the antennas' DELIVERY ahead of schedule rather than ordering it like a pizza.
Jim

We're using a ClearStream 2 antenna w/pre-amp, feeding a 50" Sony HDTV (A2000 series) and aimed at approx. 300deg.

Here's our report: (apparently, I can't update the TV Fool report since I don't have enough posts), but the details of the web address are: ...&Itemid=29&q=id%3d72433d3ff4ec64

We've reduced our cable run to the minimum, and it didn't help our signal strength at the TV.

Would a different antenna help? I've attached a listing of what we should get, along with the detail below about signal strength at our TV:

KWPX - Strength 92
KUNS - 92
KPST - 95
KWDK - 89
KMYQ - 59
KUSE - 81
KOMO - no signal; 41
KIRO - no signal; 36
KING - no signal; 41
KBTC - 67
KTBW - 62

The rest of the Hi-V stations, we don't care about, since we get KCPQ via the KMYQ feed. Is there anything we can do to get the "no signal" stations better? Most of those are the major networks, which are the ones we'd want to get. Our antenna is approx. 30-33ft above ground level, using the stand provided with the package.

I'll also be trying this without the pre-amp attached, to see if it works better.
I might also be willing to pay for a "consulting" visit (DanKurtz, Jim?) if it's the only way to help things. Just a little frustrated because we seem to be so close to receiving everything we want to receive, for free...

Thanks in advance!

We're using a ClearStream 2 antenna w/pre-amp, feeding a 50" Sony HDTV (A2000 series) and aimed at approx. 300deg.

Here's our report: (apparently, I can't update the TV Fool report since I don't have enough posts), but the details of the web address are: ...&Itemid=29&q=id%3d72433d3ff4ec64

We've reduced our cable run to the minimum, and it didn't help our signal strength at the TV.

Would a different antenna help? I've attached a listing of what we should get, along with the detail below about signal strength at our TV:

KWPX - Strength 92
KUNS - 92
KPST - 95
KWDK - 89
KMYQ - 59
KUSE - 81
KOMO - no signal; 41
KIRO - no signal; 36
KING - no signal; 41
KBTC - 67
KTBW - 62

The rest of the Hi-V stations, we don't care about, since we get KCPQ via the KMYQ feed. Is there anything we can do to get the "no signal" stations better? Most of those are the major networks, which are the ones we'd want to get. Our antenna is approx. 30-33ft above ground level, using the stand provided with the package.

I'll also be trying this without the pre-amp attached, to see if it works better.
I might also be willing to pay for a "consulting" visit (DanKurtz, Jim?) if it's the only way to help things. Just a little frustrated because we seem to be so close to receiving everything we want to receive, for free...

Thanks in advance!

Start by adding a high-VHF antenna, get a bigger UHF antenna, and you might want to wait for the tower work to be finished.

What pre-amp are you using?

Before channel 13 became KCPQ

I was looking through a old copy of Tele-Scan for the week of October 25-31, 1953. Tele-Scan was a locial version of TV Guide. This was three months prior to our family's first TV acquisition. The major news items were all about KOMO beginning their closed circuit dry runs of programming in the Bon Marche. Soon they would join KING-5, KTNT-11 and KMO-13 as the Seattle-Tacoma stations.

The program listing section shows a lot of NBC programs being aired by Tacoma's little KMO-13. I think they also aired a few offerings from the old DuMont network.

Another item mentioned that NBC had to cancel a telecast of Your Show Of Shows (Sid Caesar and Imogene Coca) at the last minute because they had neglected to contract for the AT&T long line to distrubute the program to affiliates. It seems that CBS had the line for that hour. The show would have aired on KMO-13 Saturady evening at 9 pm.

Jumping forward to a Puget Sound edition of TV Guide for the week of October 25-31, 1969 finds that channel 13 has now been known as KTVW for over a decade, leaving their KMO calls to the Tacoma radio station. A listing for Saturday Oct 25, 1969 at 3:30 pm reads: 13 - Golf Tournament: Special. Third-round action in the San Francisco Open is telecast from the Harding Park Golf Course...(Taped earlier today) (60 min) Pre-empts Upbeat.

As a 24 year old just recently discharged from the Air Force and Armed Forces Radio-TV, I suspected that this little TV Guide blurb was something historical for KTVW. It had been years since they last had any network programming. I wasn't about to miss this telecast. At the appropriate time I turned by Sony Trinitron 13 inch color set to KTVW, via Everett Cablevision, and watched the ID fade into the program opening. Wow! KTVW has a regional network program, and almost live. Crisp clean image of the maicured lawns of the golf club jumped from the screen. But what was all the subliminal color shifting I noticed. I watched for another minute or two and realized this was being broadcast in color.

Could it actually be true that KTVW was airing a color program? The colors continued to shift around but never seemed to quite match up with the image. I likely was breathing heavy with excitement knowing that I was a witness to some major northwest broadcasting historical moment. I should call KTVW. The call was placed, and a friendly voice answered. I aksed him (who it turned out was the Saturday board operator) if it was possible the program was supposed to be in color. He didn't know, and all their equipment, even all the monitors in the studio, were in B&W. I explained what I saw as shifting color, and he said let me try this. He hit a button, likely Gen-Lock, and instant color, now about 20 minutes into the program. I told him it looked great, and he stated he wished he could go home and watch it on his color set. With a quick thank you, I hung up to watch history being made.

In the next Monday or Tuesday edition of the Seattle Times or PI, in the Radio-TV column, appeared a short note that read something like 'thanks to a viewer, KTVW aired their first colorcast."

It would actually be years later that KTVW/KCPQ obtained color studio equipment, but for a brief moment in 1969 they had joined the ranks of color broadcasters, however unintentionially.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Clearstream's PA-19.

rdvegas,
You thanked me and now I thank you for even more KTVW memories. Does your 1953 magazine offer a clue what their ERP was at the time?
Jim

We're using a ClearStream 2 antenna w/pre-amp, feeding a 50" Sony HDTV (A2000 series) and aimed at approx. 300deg.

Here's our report: (apparently, I can't update the TV Fool report since I don't have enough posts), but the details of the web address are: ...&Itemid=29&q=id%3d72433d3ff4ec64

We've reduced our cable run to the minimum, and it didn't help our signal strength at the TV.

Would a different antenna help? I've attached a listing of what we should get, along with the detail below about signal strength at our TV:

KWPX - Strength 92
KUNS - 92
KPST - 95
KWDK - 89
KMYQ - 59
KUSE - 81
KOMO - no signal; 41
KIRO - no signal; 36
KING - no signal; 41
KBTC - 67
KTBW - 62

The rest of the Hi-V stations, we don't care about, since we get KCPQ via the KMYQ feed. Is there anything we can do to get the "no signal" stations better? Most of those are the major networks, which are the ones we'd want to get. Our antenna is approx. 30-33ft above ground level, using the stand provided with the package.

I'll also be trying this without the pre-amp attached, to see if it works better.
I might also be willing to pay for a "consulting" visit (DanKurtz, Jim?) if it's the only way to help things. Just a little frustrated because we seem to be so close to receiving everything we want to receive, for free...

Thanks in advance!

wazzugrad
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

Most of that is because of 1080I (interlaced scanning) at the prescribed refresh rate of roughly 30 FPS. Progressive scanning (720P or 1080P), is much better for sports or fast motion because it's refresh rate is 59.94 FPS or twice the rate of 1080I. Broadcast standards don't currently allow for 1080P, which would be optimum, especially at 120FPS found on Blu Ray DVD.

Huh? BD in no way supports 120fps content, and certainly not at 1080p. Nor would you have any way of transmitting that content if it were supported as HDMI does not support any resolutions at 120hz whatsoever.

And you should know that Blu-ray actually does not support progressive video rate content at either 1080p30 or 1080p60. Blu-ray only supports 1080i60 in spec. The only progressive framerates that BD supports are 24 and 25fps.

You are also mistaken about the refresh rate of 720p60 versus 1080i60. The refresh rate is identical, the frame-rate differs. The downside is interlacing artifacts with 1080i compared with 720p. But this doesn't really impact the compression problems of bandwidth starvation which would be basically the same either way because the bandwidth is roughly equivalent between the two.

wazzugrad
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

SE 268th Street and 224th Ave SE in Maple Valley (zip 98038)

Start by adding a high-VHF antenna, get a bigger UHF antenna, and you might want to wait for the tower work to be finished.

What pre-amp are you using?

Sorry; I should have been more clear - I'm still trying to get up to speed on all of this. It's actually their "CPA19" pre-amp.

I do have two questions related to your comments:
- When is the tower work scheduled to be completed?
- Why would adding a high-VHF antenna help if I don't need to have 9, 11, or 13?

Thanks again in advance.

Oh, and I guess since I can put links in my posts now, here's my TV Fool chart:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d27ee73f9cf27aa

Huh? BD in no way supports 120fps content, and certainly not at 1080p. Nor would you have any way of transmitting that content if it were supported as HDMI does not support any resolutions at 120hz whatsoever.

And you should know that Blu-ray actually does not support progressive video rate content at either 1080p30 or 1080p60. Blu-ray only supports 1080i60 in spec. The only progressive framerates that BD supports are 24 and 25fps.

You are also mistaken about the refresh rate of 720p60 versus 1080i60. The refresh rate is identical, the frame-rate differs. The downside is interlacing artifacts with 1080i compared with 720p. But this doesn't really impact the compression problems of bandwidth starvation which would be basically the same either way because the bandwidth is roughly equivalent between the two.



No I'm not mistaken. I've been in this business for a long time and know the differences. Perhaps I wasn't being clear as to the issue:

In my over ten years of experience with High Definition during the 1080I vs 720P shoot-outs, the big rub with interlaced scanning was the motion artifacts. Those artifacts were there even with watching a pure SMPTE 310 or 292M HD stream, let alone when transmitted over a TV station via ATSC A/53 at 19.39Mbs.

My original point was; the ATSC standard for 1080I is 23.976FPS (I rounded to 30 fields per second) and for stations using 720P the scan rate is 59.94FPS (60FPS) which last I checked, is double that of interlaced scanning and the main reason why people see motion artifacts with 1080I, NOT generally as some have posted here as the falt of the TV station for running a multicast stream or "bit starving" the HD channel.

Granted what I have found though is SOME newer TV receivers and set-top boxes have what appear as additional digital judder on top of motion artifacts when stations use statistical multiplexing in their encoding process, but again this isn't an effect of bandwidth of the stream, but of the varying bandwidth with some decoders.

And finally, you're correct that Blue Ray standards are (depending on the resolution) as high as 59.94I. The differrence between ATSC broadcast standards is the resolution being 1020 lines 1920X1080 and AVCHD codec using a low data rate. The new standard for DVD of 119.88P is on the way in the next version of Blu Ray, which will pretty well eliminate any motion artifacts and video judder there too. I was merely pointing out that 1080P would be the optimum format to produce, but won't be available for ATSC TV unless the standard is reworked and additional compression schemes are standardized as well.

As of January 31, 2010, ION no longer carries Worship (ne KWPX 33-4).

http://www.worship.net/article/january-2010-newsletter/

More bandwidth for HD.

BTW, ION Life (33-3) has started showing movies on Mondays (and some Tuesdays). This Monday, it's "The Matrix Reloaded" and "The Matrix Revolutions".

My original point was; the ATSC standard for 1080I is 23.976FPS (I rounded to 30 fields per second) and for stations using 720P the scan rate is 59.94FPS (60FPS) which last I checked, is double that of interlaced scanning and the main reason why people see motion artifacts with 1080I, NOT generally as some have posted here as the falt of the TV station for running a multicast stream or "bit starving" the HD channel.
I think you mean 1080i at 59.94 "fields" per second which rounds up to 30 "frames" per second. (1 field being all even lines or all odd lines so 2 fields = 1 frame) Aside from that, your point that 720p at it's highest refresh rate is double the "frame" rate of 1080i at it's highest refresh rate is correct. For those that will check wikipedia, the entry on Blu-ray resolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Technical_specifications labels the 1080i at 59.94 as a "Frames Rate" whereas the ATSC entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_(standards)#Resolution labels the 1080i at 29.97 as a "Frame Rate" and converts it to 59.94 fields/s. I believe the Blu-ray article is in error.

No I'm not mistaken. I've been in this business for a long time and know the differences. Perhaps I wasn't being clear as to the issue:

In my over ten years of experience with High Definition during the 1080I vs 720P shoot-outs, the big rub with interlaced scanning was the motion artifacts. Those artifacts were there even with watching a pure SMPTE 310 or 292M HD stream, let alone when transmitted over a TV station via ATSC A/53 at 19.39Mbs.

My original point was; the ATSC standard for 1080I is 23.976FPS (I rounded to 30 fields per second) and for stations using 720P the scan rate is 59.94FPS (60FPS) which last I checked, is double that of interlaced scanning and the main reason why people see motion artifacts with 1080I, NOT generally as some have posted here as the falt of the TV station for running a multicast stream or "bit starving" the HD channel.

Granted what I have found though is SOME newer TV receivers and set-top boxes have what appear as additional digital judder on top of motion artifacts when stations use statistical multiplexing in their encoding process, but again this isn't an effect of bandwidth of the stream, but of the varying bandwidth with some decoders.

And finally, you're correct that Blue Ray standards are (depending on the resolution) as high as 59.94I. The differrence between ATSC broadcast standards is the resolution being 1020 lines 1920X1080 and AVCHD codec using a low data rate. The new standard for DVD of 119.88P is on the way in the next version of Blu Ray, which will pretty well eliminate any motion artifacts and video judder there too. I was merely pointing out that 1080P would be the optimum format to produce, but won't be available for ATSC TV unless the standard is reworked and additional compression schemes are standardized as well.

I'm not even going to start my nasty rant on what the ability of the display device to render any of this does to the picture......

SE 268th Street and 224th Ave SE in Maple Valley (zip 98038)

It's called Maple Valley for a reason. Go to the TV Fool online coverage maps (http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80) & enter the call letters for the signals & then zoom into your location. They recommend using the .kmz files in Google Earth for better accuracy. I checked your cross streets with Google Earth & some stations look like you might get them. Others, like KCPQ, KING & KONG, probably not.

You're a bit better than we are off of Petrovitsky near Shadow Lake Elementary. We can't get anything except the West Tiger Mountain stations.

We're using a ClearStream 2 antenna w/pre-amp, feeding a 50" Sony HDTV (A2000 series) and aimed at approx. 300deg.

Here's our report: (apparently, I can't update the TV Fool report since I don't have enough posts), but the details of the web address are: ...&Itemid=29&q=id%3d72433d3ff4ec64

We've reduced our cable run to the minimum, and it didn't help our signal strength at the TV.

Would a different antenna help? I've attached a listing of what we should get, along with the detail below about signal strength at our TV:

KWPX - Strength 92
KUNS - 92
KPST - 95
KWDK - 89
KMYQ - 59
KUSE - 81
KOMO - no signal; 41
KIRO - no signal; 36
KING - no signal; 41
KBTC - 67
KTBW - 62

The rest of the Hi-V stations, we don't care about, since we get KCPQ via the KMYQ feed. Is there anything we can do to get the "no signal" stations better? Most of those are the major networks, which are the ones we'd want to get. Our antenna is approx. 30-33ft above ground level, using the stand provided with the package.

I'll also be trying this without the pre-amp attached, to see if it works better.
I might also be willing to pay for a "consulting" visit (DanKurtz, Jim?) if it's the only way to help things. Just a little frustrated because we seem to be so close to receiving everything we want to receive, for free...

Thanks in advance!

Wazzugrad
As Peggy D noted, you're in a valley, sort of. It's the hill to the NW that's giving you grief. You're about 500ft elevation, which would normally be great, but the hill is about 80ft higher, give or take, and goes on for a mile plus at that height. Add in a bunch of trees for another 50ft or more of height, and a lot of signal stopping wood, and it's amazing you're getting anything.
Your antennna is made for gain with wide reception. It pulls in everything about 50 degrees either side of the direction it's pointed. At your location, this gives a very chopped up looking signal (not the picture, the actual carrier waveform as viewed on a scope). The tuner has a hard time reading it.
I usually end up using something like a yagi style antenna, and the longer the better. It has a much narrower reception path, maybe 5 or 10 degrees wide. This eliminates a lot of weaker and chopped up signal, letting the stronger and cleaner stuff through. Of course, being narrower means it may require a bit more trial and error to find the sweet spot, and it won't work as well with ch28 at your location, but will definitely bring in 4-5-7-16 better. You will probably still need a preamp, but that's okay for your location. Amplifiers are not fussy, and amplify everything. With less ugly signal to work with, and stronger cleaner signal, the tuner will have an easier time.
Ch13 from KCPQ will be very tough, as there's even more, higher hill in the way to the west.
Look at something like the Channelmaster 2020 (NOT the 3020)
http://www.channelmaster.com/product-overview.php?proID=135&catID=33
or the Antennacraft HBU55
http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/HBU55_.pdf
which I believe they have at Rat Shack.
The Tiger Mt channels will probably come in on the side of the antenna just fine. If you still want to get ch28, use the Clearstream reaimed for Tacoma on a separate downlead, and mounted at least 5ft below the main one. You can't mix it in with a Jointenna, as you'll loose KMYQ 22 and KONG 16, and maybe some ch4 or 7.
Either of these antennas also have a good VHF HI band antenna.
Length of lead in isn't that critical with your preamp, so if you need to experiment with location, give it a try. Obviously, you don't want an extra 100ft lying around, but don't loose sleep over a little more cable. DO make sure all your connections are done clean.
If you have other questions, fire away or call.
Let us know what happens.
Dan
206-794-3993

Sorry; I should have been more clear - I'm still trying to get up to speed on all of this. It's actually their "CPA19" pre-amp.

I do have two questions related to your comments:
- When is the tower work scheduled to be completed?
- Why would adding a high-VHF antenna help if I don't need to have 9, 11, or 13?

Thanks again in advance.

Oh, and I guess since I can put links in my posts now, here's my TV Fool chart:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d27ee73f9cf27aa

The CPA-19 is a capable pre-amp that handles strong signals well without overloading. It should be fine.

Missed the part about not needing the VHF channels, so that can be disregarded.

It is my observation that the signal propagation algorithm that TVFool uses will grossly underestimate the signal loss when you are hugging the back side of a sharp terrain feature. I believe this is due to the limited terrain resolution and the terrain averaging that the software has to do in order to render the calculations within a reasonable time. As an example, here is my TVFool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d27ee9d9644dc36 Based on that, you'd expect that a moderate gain UHF antenna would be needed. I went through an original 4228, a DB8, and finally went to a 91XG with an added 4th boom section (with a bit of up-tilt) in order to finally get that PBS channel on UHF39. With a hand-held spectrum analyzer at the antenna, KETC's signal is just barely present above the background noise level. With a PA18 pre-amp connected to the 91XG, I've dug it out of the noise and it's 98-99% reliable. Because I'm literally hugging the back side of the offending hill with a tree-lined visual horizon only 30 yards from the antenna, my situation is far worse than the TVF forecast would suggest. Bottom line: Valleys are tough to get reliable reception in.

Based on the chatter in this thread over the last several days. It appears that there is still quite a bit of work left to be done on at least one of the towers. Scan back a few pages as I don't recall the specifics.

Good luck!

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I was looking for the technical details, and figured that the antenna style would need to change in order to get the reception we were looking for.

Regarding the "valley" of MV, we are actually closer to the high side than the low, but the point is well taken.

I had a feeling the TV Fool charts were a little liberal in noting which stations we were likely to get; the detailed reasons why will help me decide my next steps.

I know I'm glad this forum is available. Thanks again.

I'm not even going to start my nasty rant on what the ability of the display device to render any of this does to the picture......

Agreed! All displays and receiving devices definitely are not created equal. Combine that with a multitude of factors with how TV's are connected in a home or local cable system infrastructure, one could choose between a few hundred differrent elements which could affect the picture quality. I've seen some video-file-grade TV's that look pretty bad because they're connected to RG59 cable, or using RGB inputs from a set-top box or DVD player, rather than HDMI.

Granted a couple of the networks made their bed years ago by picking an HD standard because of a vendor, rather than careful evaluation of the Interlaced or Progressive scan standards based on the level of HD PROGRAMMING they anticipated their viewers would be watching, like..oh..sports? I knew back in the 90's when attending HD shoot-outs, that the sports watching public would object to the level of motion artifacts when watching sports via a 1080I stream and would eventually blame their local TV station. But 1080 lines are better than 720 lines aren't they?

The interesting thing you'll see too when comparing the numbers of negative comments on the AVS forums between those watching football on their local FOX or ABC affilliated station running 720P-HD vs. CBS or NBC affilliated stations, are the volume of complaints specifically siting some form of "blocking" when watching fast motion video.

Don't get me wrong, nature scenes shot, posted and aired in 1080I are stunning. Just don't try to follow a cheetah and expect it to be as pristine.

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I was looking for the technical details, and figured that the antenna style would need to change in order to get the reception we were looking for.

Regarding the "valley" of MV, we are actually closer to the high side than the low, but the point is well taken.

I had a feeling the TV Fool charts were a little liberal in noting which stations we were likely to get; the detailed reasons why will help me decide my next steps.

I know I'm glad this forum is available. Thanks again.

WazzuGrad
You're actually in several valleys, depending on which direction you look.
Biggest problem is the mile of hill and trees in QA Hill direction.
Also, don't put too much faith in the TV Fool charts for real world solutions. They don't take into account the hills, trees, buildings, power output of station or their polar plot of transmission (not all stations broadcast a perfect 360 degrees from the tower). I have tested the various antenna solution websites with known addresses that are impossible, like up against 300ft cliffs, but very close to towers. On a map, and only a few miles to towers, they said a small antenna would be fine. Even when I know what problems a particular location might have, sometimes it will still surprise me and require something different. Definitely keeps the game from being boring, though!
Let us know what happens.
Dan

No I'm not mistaken. I've been in this business for a long time and know the differences. Perhaps I wasn't being clear as to the issue:

In my over ten years of experience with High Definition during the 1080I vs 720P shoot-outs, the big rub with interlaced scanning was the motion artifacts. Those artifacts were there even with watching a pure SMPTE 310 or 292M HD stream, let alone when transmitted over a TV station via ATSC A/53 at 19.39Mbs.

My original point was; the ATSC standard for 1080I is 23.976FPS (I rounded to 30 fields per second) and for stations using 720P the scan rate is 59.94FPS (60FPS) which last I checked, is double that of interlaced scanning and the main reason why people see motion artifacts with 1080I, NOT generally as some have posted here as the falt of the TV station for running a multicast stream or "bit starving" the HD channel.

Again it sounds like you're confusing a couple things together, and mis-stating ATSC standards. I also don't understand why you are rounding 23.98 to 30 instead of 24, I am assuming that is a typo and you meant 29.97 instead since interlaced 24/23.976 are not supported by ATSC (and doesn't make any sense). A/53 provides a variety of 1080i and 1080p format possibilities. Stations generally broadcast in either 720p60 or what ATSC denotes as 1080i30. The 30 in 1080i30 is used in this case to describe the frame-rate, not the field-rate because in interlaced scanning they are distinct. In progressive scanning, each field is a frame, so 720p60 is both 60 fields and 60 frames per second. The field-refresh rate of 720p60 and 1080i30 are the same, however the frame-rate differs. (I'm using whole numbers for simplicity, modify by 1000/1001 for accuracy of course) The source of interlaced scanning artifacts (and resolution loss with vertical motion) has to do with the nature of interlaced image capture, not with the differences between the field-refresh rates which is identical between commonly broadcast 720p and 1080i (both refresh at 60 times per second).

What I was criticizing was exactly due to choices that exacerbate bit-starvation, and not at all interlacing artifacts (which are fairly obscure artifacts). Interlaced artifacts are very different from macroblocking and it isn't difficult to identify the difference. And what I see is heavy macroblocking. Compression artifacts, while never entirely avoided on high-entropy content like a football game at ATSC rates and MPEG-2, is certainly exacerbated by multicasting. Certainly you wouldn't disagree about that. Admittedly, I am viewing in a reference environment, and I am relentlessly picky, so things that many viewers wouldn't see or care about I do care about, but artifacts due to low bitrate were severe and likely quite visible even to a less discerning viewer on a more modest display, and on important programming like the Superbowl it was an unfortunate decision.


Granted what I have found though is SOME newer TV receivers and set-top boxes have what appear as additional digital judder on top of motion artifacts when stations use statistical multiplexing in their encoding process, but again this isn't an effect of bandwidth of the stream, but of the varying bandwidth with some decoders.

And finally, you're correct that Blue Ray standards are (depending on the resolution) as high as 59.94I. The differrence between ATSC broadcast standards is the resolution being 1020 lines 1920X1080 and AVCHD codec using a low data rate. The new standard for DVD of 119.88P is on the way in the next version of Blu Ray, which will pretty well eliminate any motion artifacts and video judder there too.

Do you have a reference for a 120/119.88 standard for BD? I am unaware of such a proposal. If true, however, it would also require content captured at those rates, which does not exist today.

I was merely pointing out that 1080P would be the optimum format to produce, but won't be available for ATSC TV unless the standard is reworked and additional compression schemes are standardized as well.

whoa.... ;)

Again it sounds like you're confusing a couple things together, and mis-stating ATSC standards. I also don't understand why you are rounding 23.98 to 30 instead of 24,
720p and 1080i (both refresh at 60 times per second).


You're right Chris. I meant to say 29.94 or 30 Frames Per Second for 1080I. Ham handed fingers. And trust me, I've set up my fair share of ATSC encoders. 1080I runs at 29.97 Frames Per Second. 720P runs at 59.94 Frames Per Second.



What I was criticizing was exactly due to choices that exacerbate bit-starvation, and not at all interlacing artifacts (which are fairly obscure artifacts). Interlaced artifacts are very different from macroblocking and it isn't difficult to identify the difference. And what I see is heavy macroblocking. Compression artifacts, while never entirely avoided on high-entropy content like a football game at ATSC rates and MPEG-2, is certainly exacerbated by multicasting. Certainly you wouldn't disagree about that.



I do agree that 1080I/30 is more susceptible to noticable artifacts from running at a lower bit rate, but in side by side comparisons with your average viewer, most find motion artifacts to be the most objectionable. I've actually shut off ancillary 2Mbs channels on 1080I stations running HD on the main channel and asked various station personnel if they could see the difference. Out of 10 people, 5 thought the "dot 2" channel was still on because they saw motion artifacts as reduced bandwidth.

On a station that I was contracting with to set up their HD, I've run 720P/60 on an ABC affilliate at 8Mb with a FOX HD 720P/60 "dot 2" channel muxed together at 8Mb with a fixed data rate. (16Mb combined + 5.1 surround) No viewer complaints.



Admittedly, I am viewing in a reference environment, and I am relentlessly picky, so things that many viewers wouldn't see or care about I do care about, but artifacts due to low bitrate were severe and likely quite visible even to a less discerning viewer on a more modest display, and on important programming like the Superbowl it was an unfortunate decision.



Interesting. What constitutes a "reference environment"? Are you tied into the local station by fiber? Do you have HD video monitoring equipment like a waveform or vector analyzer? Do you have a piece of test equipment like a Triveni Stream Scope? If not then I would respectfully argue that receiving OTA has too many variables to be considered as any sort of true "reference environment".

You're right Chris. I meant to say 29.94 or 30 Frames Per Second for 1080I. Ham handed fingers. And trust me, I've set up my fair share of ATSC encoders. 1080I runs at 29.97 Frames Per Second. 720P runs at 59.94 Frames Per Second.

Certainly. My point is merely that if the content is shot natively at 1080i, which I understand to be the case with the superbowl, you're still getting a 60hz refresh rate in terms of fields. So motion capture is not that dissimilar to 60p, except that you're capturing interlaced which is subtly different than progressive capture particularly in terms of how that gets deinterlaced. If we were viewing the raw uncompressed feed at 1080i right off the camera, I suspect either one of us would be rather hard-pressed to distinguish that from 60p capture, because interlacing artifacts, while present, are not horribly severe particularly when we're talking HD resolutions here. You're still capturing 60 fields of video per second either way, except that it's spatially different with interlaced because each field is not an entire frame, and you can't really just weave the two fields together either because they are temporally distinct. Ideally progressive is simpler, and I would argue at least as it stands today, inherently superior, but I just don't feel that those differences are particularly significant, especially when compared to compression artifacts which are vastly more visible regardless of whether the content is interlaced or progressive (assuming things are flagged properly, or at least detected properly by a video processor and not botched up that way which is a problem either way but is not the fault of the content).

In comparison, macroblocking is like HELLO!!!! It's all over the place. It's very easily visible, and sometimes quite grotesque. Perhaps later I'll see if I can scare up some screenshots of the Superbowl and show you what I mean. Now, also to be fair, even with all the bandwidth dedicated to a single channel MPEG 2 runs out of steam pretty quickly, so it isn't like compression artifacts will magically go away, but they could perhaps go from bad to mediocre.


I do agree that 1080I/30 is more susceptible to noticable artifacts from running at a lower bit rate, but in side by side comparisons with your average viewer, most find motion artifacts to be the most objectionable. I've actually shut off ancillary 2Mbs channels on 1080I stations running HD on the main channel and asked various station personnel if they could see the difference. Out of 10 people, 5 thought the "dot 2" channel was still on because they saw motion artifacts as reduced bandwidth.

That would be an interesting comparison to make, particularly if you could view the same content twice, once with ancillary channels, and once without.


On a station that I was contracting with to set up their HD, I've run 720P/60 on an ABC affilliate at 8Mb with a FOX HD 720P/60 "dot 2" channel muxed together at 8Mb with a fixed data rate. (16Mb combined + 5.1 surround) No viewer complaints.

That may not say anything except about our laziness as viewers. I mean, I can't say I've ever called in to complain about picture quality to any broadcaster, but I certainly can't say I've never had any complaints. :)


Interesting. What constitutes a "reference environment"? Are you tied into the local station by fiber? Do you have HD video monitoring equipment like a waveform or vector analyzer? Do you have a piece of test equipment like a Triveni Stream Scope? If not then I would respectfully argue that receiving OTA has too many variables to be considered as any sort of true "reference environment".

Of course not. Otherwise I wouldn't be complaining about too much broadcast compression. If I had the raw feed, then I'd be happy as a clam! Someday perhaps we'll have that capability, but sadly not today. My point was only that I'm viewing in a relatively abnormal environment, with a large-screen front projection setup, at a fairly large viewing angle. And I'm unreasonably picky. It certainly wouldn't surprise me that most viewers, with their TV in the living room, probably wouldn't notice, and might not even notice or care about the difference between a good quality blu-ray versus broadcast HD, let alone a channel broadcasting a bunch of sub-channels versus all the bandwidth dedicated to one program. I was only pointing out that my pickiness, and my system, is not average, so I "see" a lot more crud than average joe would ever notice.

Strange tonight. We were watching the second "All of the family" episode on KVOS-12 (35) and I checked it between episodes and it was its usual solid 65. Good. Then, it rapidly went from 65 to ZERO within four minutes. Ten minutes later it reappeared was a signal strength of '5' and still blocking but working, then it built back in stages until it found its way back to its normal signal level. Bizarre!

WHY?

Jim

It didn't just go off all at once? It took four minutes to go off?

- Trip

Strange tonight. We were watching the second "All of the family" episode on KVOS-12 (35) and I checked it between episodes and it was its usual solid 65. Good. Then, it rapidly went from 65 to ZERO within four minutes. Ten minutes later it reappeared was a signal strength of '5' and still blocking but working, then it built back in stages until it found its way back to its normal signal level. Bizarre!

WHY?

Jim

There are about 87 billion things that could cause this to happen. The biggest problem is that the 'signal level' meter in most consumer receivers means precisely squat and tells you almost nothing about the >QUALITY< of the signal which is what you're really interested in.

That station, while covering very well, is still a long ways out with a UHF signal that propogates almost entirely over salt water on its way to Seattle. Could have been a rain squall. Could have been a temperature inversion. Could have been the rig on Queen Anne on 36 going berserk. (I seriously doubt that one.) Could have been a transmitter problem on Mt. Constitution. Could have been problems with the encoding equipment at KVOS. Could have been something wrong with your receiver. So on and so forth....

I grabbed two frames from the superbowl, just using tinypic to host these which unfortunately resizes down, but you can still see what I mean (caveat that these are not native obviously, simply for ease of posting).

First pic is a relatively still sequence, so the bitrate is enough to keep up because compression can take care of things as long as everything is relatively stable, with a bit of the next picture at the top of the frame (bottom is cropped off) to compare:

http://i46.tinypic.com/352lrmu.jpg

Second pic is high-entropy:

http://i50.tinypic.com/if02mb.jpg

These images are only for compression comparison/example purposes.

Clearly that's not interlacing artifacts that I'm talking about. And the motion shot is almost entirely sideways, so it's not like there is any resolution drop from vertical motion going on either.

And that looks gross. Blech.

Would dedicating the full bandwidth have made that perfect? No, but I'll bet it wouldn't look quite so hideous... ;)

Certainly the second still frame is ugly by comparison, but I'm still not in the camp that KIRO running a "dot 2" channel would cause what you're seeing or that the second frame would be better in your recording even with all the bandwidth dedicated by the broadcaster to the HD pircture.

Without a stream analyzer it's hard to tell what that is, but because the graphic on top isn't also pixelated on the second frame, I'm guessing that what your example is showing may be a combination of poor camera focus, motion, video jitter and the encoder in their production truck not being able to adequately compensate quickly. I used to run an HD production truck used in Monday Night Football, granted 720P, but would see similar effects in a combination of issues starting with the camera shot. We did a few 4th of July fireworks displays with the truck and would have that issue if the camera operator moved the camera quickly without being in focus and the Technical Director took the shot to program. The encoder would take a second to determine what was needed to encode the video.

Beyond the pixelization in the moving video of frame two, I also see motion artifacts near high chroma areas around his arm and neck. (wavy lines of the same skin tone away from his arm).

Interesting pictures. I guess I should be somewhat glad that my old eyes aren't really able to see some of the defects when watching (glaucoma). Being mostly deaf in one ear, I don't notice some of the audio deficiencies either (at least I don't miss hearing the horizontal oscillator which bothered me in my youth).

It didn't just go off all at once? It took four minutes to go off?

- Trip
-------------------------------
Trip,
The closest analogy I can make is to compare the event to a carbon-arc lamp (in very slow motion): full blast, then the arc breaks but some light (glow) continues for a time. Change the carbon bars, restart the arc and the light slowly builds back to full blast.

I think tschall has it right "87 billion things" and a rain squall makes good sense and I didn't know there is a QA transmitter on 36. What station is that?

I watched analog 12 for many years and their signal was marginal. It would wax and wane with my local weather, especially right after sundown on hot days.

Regarding this event, it was interesting to watch them disappear and then reappear. Certainly not like low-band ham or shortwave radio nor like their analog VHF was. As the British would say, "It's all rather confusing, really".
Jim

PS I watched FOX-13 news this morning and they are running a spot each hour showing vintage TV commercials. Memories.

-------------------------------
Trip,
The closest analogy I can make is to compare the event to a carbon-arc lamp (in very slow motion): full blast, then the arc breaks but some light (glow) continues for a time. Change the carbon bars, restart the arc and the light slowly builds back to full blast.

I think tschall has it right "87 billion things" and a rain squall makes good sense and I didn't know there is a QA transmitter on 36. What station is that?

I watched analog 12 for many years and their signal was marginal. It would wax and wane with my local weather, especially right after sundown on hot days.

Regarding this event, it was interesting to watch them disappear and then reappear. Certainly not like low-band ham or shortwave radio nor like their analog VHF was. As the British would say, "It's all rather confusing, really".
Jim

PS I watched FOX-13 news this morning and they are running a spot each hour showing vintage TV commercials. Memories.

For the record, channel 36 is KSTW and it is actually on Capital Hill and not on Queen Anne as I stated previously.

Certainly the second still frame is ugly by comparison, but I'm still not in the camp that KIRO running a "dot 2" channel would cause what you're seeing or that the second frame would be better in your recording even with all the bandwidth dedicated by the broadcaster to the HD pircture.

Without a stream analyzer it's hard to tell what that is, but because the graphic on top isn't also pixelated on the second frame, I'm guessing that what your example is showing may be a combination of poor camera focus, motion, video jitter and the encoder in their production truck not being able to adequately compensate quickly. I used to run an HD production truck used in Monday Night Football, granted 720P, but would see similar effects in a combination of issues starting with the camera shot. We did a few 4th of July fireworks displays with the truck and would have that issue if the camera operator moved the camera quickly without being in focus and the Technical Director took the shot to program. The encoder would take a second to determine what was needed to encode the video.

Beyond the pixelization in the moving video of frame two, I also see motion artifacts near high chroma areas around his arm and neck. (wavy lines of the same skin tone away from his arm).

But at the end of the day, all of that is compression artifacts. And within one particular codec, if you have a higher bitrate with less compression, you end up with fewer artifacts and a better picture. Would the loss from just one subchannel make a significant difference here? I don't really know. But it does make a big BIG difference on KCTS for example because they're running several sub channels so their main channel is practically emaciated! The more you take away from the main channel, the worse it gets, that's my only point. You don't get a second sub-channel for free, there is a definite cost.

And for certain special very high-viewership events like the superbowl, if I were running a station I would shut down secondary subchannels for those things because I'd want it to look as good as possible. For more regular stuff, it may be a good compromise to have subchannels showing additional content, but for something like the Superbowl it seems to me that if ever there would be a reason to dedicate as much bandwidth as possible to a heavily viewed program for best quality that would certainly be the one.

But at the end of the day, all of that is compression artifacts. And within one particular codec, if you have a higher bitrate with less compression, you end up with fewer artifacts and a better picture. Would the loss from just one subchannel make a significant difference here? I don't really know. But it does make a big BIG difference on KCTS for example because they're running several sub channels so their main channel is practically emaciated! The more you take away from the main channel, the worse it gets, that's my only point. You don't get a second sub-channel for free, there is a definite cost.

And for certain special very high-viewership events like the superbowl, if I were running a station I would shut down secondary subchannels for those things because I'd want it to look as good as possible. For more regular stuff, it may be a good compromise to have subchannels showing additional content, but for something like the Superbowl it seems to me that if ever there would be a reason to dedicate as much bandwidth as possible to a heavily viewed program for best quality that would certainly be the one.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on some points Chris. Chances are even if KIRO had not been muxing their dot 2 channel, I maintain you would have seen the same artifacts during the Superbowl.

For the record, channel 36 is KSTW and it is actually on Capital Hill and not on Queen Anne as I stated previously.
--------------------------
tshall,
I was under the impression KSTW had discontinued transmitting on 36. Am I mistaken? I also saw via the REC Networks website last November they were authorized to raise their ERP from 12.5 to 68 kW on VHF-11. Hopefully, my home-brew 9 Yagi will now be able to capture them as well as it received 9 last summer. Thanks,
Jim

http://cdbs.recnet.com/fmq.php?facid=&call=KSTW&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

--------------------------
tshall,
I was under the impression KSTW had discontinued transmitting on 36. Am I mistaken? I also saw via the REC Networks website last November they were authorized to raise their ERP from 12.5 to 68 kW on VHF-11. Hopefully, my home-brew 9 Yagi will now be able to capture them as well as it received 9 last summer. Thanks,
Jim

http://cdbs.recnet.com/fmq.php?facid=&call=KSTW&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

Ya ever have one of those days when ya only read half a message and then end up having to set everything straight and just to add to the fun your own stuff isn't exactly behaving properly?

So, lemme try this once more. KSTW no longer transmits on channel 36. They now transmit on channel 11. Web sites like recnet.com and fccinfo.com that scrape the FCC database are frequently out of step with reality. KSTW is now operating at 100kw ERP.

Web sites like recnet.com and fccinfo.com that scrape the FCC database are frequently out of step with reality.

The FCC database is often inaccurate on things like this. The database on RabbitEars actually has two extra fields ("lock" and "active") which can be used to either lock incorrect records that I've corrected locally so they don't get overwritten by FCC updates, or to hide records that are being displayed by the FCC but should not be.

- Trip

Ya ever have one of those days when ya only read half a message and then end up having to set everything straight and just to add to the fun your own stuff isn't exactly behaving properly?

So, lemme try this once more. KSTW no longer transmits on channel 36. They now transmit on channel 11. Web sites like recnet.com and fccinfo.com that scrape the FCC database are frequently out of step with reality. KSTW is now operating at 100kw ERP.
-----------------------------------------------
tshall,
You've made my day! Since I can receive 9, I certainly should be able to receive 11 with 100kw ERP, I might even have to attenuate it. I can't wait for the weather to stabilize so I can finalize my antenna setup. Oh, and I have my fair share of 'one of those days' too. Thanks for clarifying.
Jim

-----------------------------------------------
tshall,
You've made my day! Since I can receive 9, I certainly should be able to receive 11 with 100kw ERP, I might even have to attenuate it. I can't wait for the weather to stabilize so I can finalize my antenna setup. Oh, and I have my fair share of 'one of those days' too. Thanks for clarifying.
Jim

The radiation patterns of the two stations antennas are substantially different. KSTW uses a peanut shaped directional antenna and KCTS uses an non directional antenna. Despite the fact that KCTS operates at 21.7kw ERP and is some 85 feet lower than KSTW there are areas where KCTS is substantialy stronger. Particularly to the east and west of the Capital Hill site.

I have been following the ATSC image motion issues discussions between "ChrisWiggles" and "Kelly from KOMO" and have greatly enjoyed the interaction and thoughts. I have seen similar discussions on various blogs through the years, often with misinformation and misunderstanding of the what is actually occurring in the ATSC process.

As a broadcast engineering veteran, mostly in the Dallas/Ft. Worth market, I would like to contribute some thoughts to the discussion.

I will present my thoughts in parts as I believe a discussion beginning with a review of some ATSC basics would be helpful as foundation to further aspects of the issues and further discussions.

I will post Part One in a new post.

720P/60 VS. 1080P/30 IMAGES – A DISCUSSION OF ATSC MOTION ISSUES
___________________________________________________________

GENERAL
For purposes of this discussion, the actual ATSC broadcast frame rate of 29.97 frames per second will be considered to 30 frames per second. Some other ATSC technical parameters will also be ignored as they have no practical effect for this discussion.

THE BASICS

ATSC 720p/60 consists of 60 frames per second of 720 horizontal lines progressively scanned per frame. There are 1280 pixels per line. The lines are displayed progressively, i.e., from top to bottom of the display screen, starting with line1, then line 2, then line 3, and so on until 720 lines have been displayed in 1/60 of a second. There are 1280 pixels per line.

ATSC 1080i/30 consists of two fields of 540 lines each and interlaced to create 30 frames per second. Thus each frame consists of 1080 lines. There are 1920 pixels per line.

The first field of 1080i/30 consists of the all of the odd numbered lines beginning at the top of the display screen with line 1 displaying, then skipping line 2 to display line 3, then skipping line 4 to display line 5, and so on until 540 lines are displayed. Each line is created in 1/32,400 of a second [1/(540 lines per field x 60 fields per second)]. However, only one half of a complete full frame image has been created. Thus, then the second field of even number lines is scanned from top to bottom of the screen beginning with line 2 (line 1 skipped), then line 4 (line 3 skipped), then line 6 (line 5 skipped), and so on until all 540 even numbered lines are displayed. There is a complete image frame created every 1/30 of a second. In other words, there is not a complete image until the two fields have been “interlaced”. Thus, a 1080i/30 full frame image occurs every 1/30 of a second. And therefore, there are 30 frames per second.

In the 720p/60 format, the start time between progressively scanned lines 1 and 2 and each successive line is 1/43,200 of a second [1/(720 lines per frame x 60 frames per second)]. In the 1080i/30 format, the start time between the interlaced scanned line 1 (start line of odd numbered lines field) and line 2 (start line of even numbered lines field) is 1/60 of a second (a full field of 540 odd numbered lines must occur before the even numbered lines field can begin). There is seemingly no intuitive relationship between the progressive and interlaced line starts.

In Part 2 - A DIFFERENT APPROACH

A DIFFERENT APPROACH

A more intuitive approach to compare 720p/60 to 1080i/30 is to think of 1080i/30 as, in reality, “540p/60”. This approach would consist of 540 lines of odd numbered lines every 1/60 of a second. The next set of 540 lines would be a set of 540 even numbered lines every 1/60 of a second. Then back to the odd numbered set of 540 lines. Then back to the even numbered set of 540 lines. This alternating process keeps repeating itself, creating a combination of 60 “frames” per second. The 60 frames can also be considered the same as 60 fields consisting of 540 lines for 1080i/30 purposes, and is what actually happens in 1080i/30. But, again, it can just as easily be thought of as “540p/60” for purposes of this discussion.

Thus, as noted in Part 1 previously posted, there are 43,200 horizontal lines per second in 720p/60 and 32,400 horizontal lines per second in “540p/60” (540 lines per frame x 60 frames per second). Thus, 720p/60 produces 33.333% more lines than “540p/60” (43,200 lines/32,400 lines), providing a superior vertical resolution along with a superior line rate. This analysis thus far ignores the effects of interlace in HDTV which will be discussed later.

Thus, for an image frame containing high velocity movements, e.g., NASCAR races with multiple cars moving at 180 mph with panning, NFL football games with multiple players moving in different directions, Olympic lugers with movement at 80+ mph, Olympic skiers moving downhill at 70+ mph, and with constantly changing camera takes from different camera placements and with different foreground and background image content, from line 1 display to line 2 display to line 3 display and so on, the 1/720 vs. 1/540 of a second time difference between 720p/60 and “540p/60” scanning is highly significant for the implications for actual and perceived motion smoothness.

Also, note that 720p’s complete image frame rate occurs more often than 1080i’s “540p” complete image frame rate, again a 33.33% greater rate (720 frames/540 frames) and the same percentage as the total lines difference percentage.

In Part 3 - PRACTICAL REALITY

A DIFFERENT APPROACH

A more intuitive approach to compare 720p/60 to 1080i/30 is to think of 1080i/30 as, in reality, “540p/60”. This approach would consist of 540 lines of odd numbered lines every 1/60 of a second. The next set of 540 lines would be a set of 540 even numbered lines every 1/60 of a second. Then back to the odd numbered set of 540 lines. Then back to the even numbered set of 540 lines. This alternating process keeps repeating itself, creating a combination of 60 “frames” per second. The 60 frames can also be considered the same as 60 fields consisting of 540 lines for 1080i/30 purposes, and is what actually happens in 1080i/30. But, again, it can just as easily be thought of as “540p/60” for purposes of this discussion.

Thus, as noted in Part 1 previously posted, there are 43,200 horizontal lines per second in 720p/60 and 32,400 horizontal lines per second in “540p/60” (540 lines per frame x 60 frames per second). Thus, 720p/60 produces 33.333% more lines than “540p/60” (43,200 lines/32,400 lines), providing a superior vertical resolution along with a superior line rate. This analysis thus far ignores the effects of interlace in HDTV which will be discussed later.

I think this is a little bit misleading because it's only part of the picture (I made a punny... :/ ), but not necessarily unproductive. You can't really say that it's delivering a higher vertical resolution just based on the number of lines, because you are treating the lines of each frame of 720p at each 60th of a second as comparable to each field of 1080i at each 60th of a second, which would be as you describe it sort of a frame of 540p. So if we only compare a whole frame of 720p, to a field of 1080i thought of for purposes of discussion as a frame of 540p, then 720p is delivering more vertical resolution. But that isn't the case, because you can't escape the fact that you have to consider the entire frame of 1080i, which includes both fields, to understand the spatial resolution aspect of it. You can't just directly compare a field of interlaced video which is literally only half the image, to an entire image of progressive video. And then you can't really compare a frame of progressive video directly to a frame of interlaced video, particularly when the frame-rate of progressive in this example is twice that of the interlaced content.

It might be more instructive to think of it in a more direct approach, in that 720p is delivering 60 frames per second, while 1080i is delivering only 30 frames per second. That's twice as many frames of video delivered by 720p, but because they're different spatial resolutions it doesn't capture the spatial disadvantage of 720p. If we're only talking lines here, we can just make a rather simple slightly more accurate comparison of the 1080 lines delivered by one frame of 1080i, versus the 1440 lines delivered by 720p in the same comparable 1/30th of a second.

But again, that doesn't really capture the whole picture either because we're still entirely ignoring horizontal resolution.

So I mean, at the end of the day, it's kind of difficult to compare these two things that well because we're not comparing apples to apples. You have two very different kinds of temporal performances happening, and two different kinds of spatial performance.

It's most accurate really just to describe them as what they are, because they are fundamentally different beasts, and trying to compare them in an apples-to-apples way isn't really possible.

Because these are all "sort-of" valid comparisons too:
samples (resolution) per field: 921,600 (720p) versus 1,036,800 (1080i). 1080i wins.
lines per field 720 versus 540. 720p wins
lines per two frames of 720 to two fields of 1080i: 1440 v 1080 720p wins
samples per two frames 720 to two fields 1080i 1,843,200 v 2,073,600 1080i wins.

So do we care more about talking just lines, or both directions? We can't say that one is somehow more important than the other in handling motion. The most we can really say is that 1080i, being interlaced, has inherent interlaced motion problems which 720p avoids. 720p avoids that at the cost of spatial resolution, but spatial resolution isn't irrelevant to motion either. So we can look at how much "stuff" each format is delivering per second in different ways and come up with different winners.

So my lazy way out is just to say that 1080i is 1080i, and 720p is 720p. Ideally I'd want 1080p60 and we could just put this all to rest. :D

Thankfully I'm a film buff, so most of what I care about is just plain-ol 24p. Simple. And thankfully with BD we actually have a format that supports 24p directly, not the asinine mess of DVD stuck only with 60hz "480i30" and trying to guess your way back to 24p... :rolleyes:

All you broadcast guys and your dagnabbit complicated video-rate stuff!!! Just making life hard for me, because it's either 1080i that has to get deinterlaced, or 720p that has to get upscaled. Why can't you guys just do things the easy way??? :p :)


Thus, for an image frame containing high velocity movements, e.g., NASCAR races with multiple cars moving at 180 mph with panning, NFL football games with multiple players moving in different directions, Olympic lugers with movement at 80+ mph, Olympic skiers moving downhill at 70+ mph, and with constantly changing camera takes from different camera placements and with different foreground and background image content, from line 1 display to line 2 display to line 3 display and so on, the 1/720 vs. 1/540 of a second time difference between 720p/60 and “540p/60” scanning is highly significant for the implications for actual and perceived motion smoothness.

Also, note that 720p’s complete image frame rate occurs more often than 1080i’s “540p” complete image frame rate, again a 33.33% greater rate (720 frames/540 frames) and the same percentage as the total lines difference percentage.

In Part 3 - PRACTICAL REALITY

Now I'm a little confused because the complete image frame of 720p happens twice as much as 1080i, but at lower resolution. You get 30 frames per second with "1080i30" versus 60 frames per second with 720p. But that is still misleading, because 1080i isn't capturing images at only 30 times per second. You're still capturing motion happening at 60 times per second with both, just it's happening at two different resolutions and one is progressive and the other is interlaced capture. Again, back to my cop out of just calling them 1080i and 720p, apple and orange. Anyway I'm not seeing where you're getting only a 33% increase, temporally, I guess you're just talking about the lines here which is more a spatial thing again?

I mean, I want interlaced capture to go away just as much as anyone else, dealing with interlaced as we move to the near universal acceptance of progressive displays is a major pain and never perfect. And I for one don't want to keep a bunch of CRTs around just to deal with interlaced video in a proper fashion. :eek:

ChrisWiggles, you captured the essence of where I'm heading in my future discussion in Part 3 - Practical Reality. The intent of the concept of "540p/60" within 1080i/30 was to give a completely different perspective to create the very discussion you presented. You presented an excellent review and discussion.

The ATSC processes are confusing. And perhaps most importantly, you noted comparing ATSC 720p/60 to 1080i/30 is much like trying to compare apples to oranges. I totally agree!

Hopefully others will weigh in with their thoughts too.

Now, about you film guys ... I'm OK with you guys! :)

I am really unsure how much longer I'll be able to watch all of this without ripping out my hair. Precisely >NONE< of this discussion has brought up the fact that the ATSC tv station has an extremly limited and fixed amount of bandwidth to deal with. 19.39Mbps. Out of this I must account for mpeg overhead, PSIP, a time clock and a bunch of other junk that eats up between 1 & 1.25 MBPS right off the top. So in order to make the math easy we'll say I have 18 Mbps left over to use for content. In the case of KCTS I've got some other datacast services that eat up about 1 Mbps of that stream. Down to 17 Mbps. Most other ATSC stations are in a similar boat.

Here's the full meal deal guys, using clean content with lots of background motion (Can you say sports or even a lot of the nature shows we run on KCTS?) I'll leave my encoder set at 11Mbps, leave my 2 SD streams on, give you and the 1080i signal the entire 17Mbps of space and go head-to-head with you. As long as everything holds still you'll kill me. But the second something moves, you're all done. That sounds arrogant and it is but if a broadcaster is unwilling to take me up on it they need to go work on their TV station.

The point is, at the end of the day, bandwidth on an ATSC station is a commodity that is scarce and limited. Would I love to able to double my bandwidth? Yes. Could I? Yes, tomorrow, not a problem. Is it a good idea? No. Of course not. It would instantly obsolete every ATSC TV out there and cut the coverage of the stations by a third or more.

Every broadcaster out there is doing the best that they can with what they've got. We try very hard to deliver the best picture that we possibly can to the most eyeballs. Ideas like shutting off sub-channels when there is a big high profile event playing somewhere else are impractical at best and, as Kelly has already observed, likely to be ineffective.

As long as everything holds still you'll kill me. But the second something moves, you're all done. That sounds arrogant and it is but if a broadcaster is unwilling to take me up on it they need to go work on their TV station.

Every broadcaster out there is doing the best that they can with what they've got. We try very hard to deliver the best picture that we possibly can to the most eyeballs. Ideas like shutting off sub-channels when there is a big high profile event playing somewhere else are impractical at best and, as Kelly has already observed, likely to be ineffective.

And here I thought my LCD TV display was to blame.

Richard

In the end it's all about individual perception. 99+% of those purchasing HDTV's are satisfied and in fact usually impressed with the picture and sound quality from TV broadcasts.

Interest from viewers in watching additional free content carried on 'multicast' channels is increasing, as are viewers slowly rediscovering OTA viewing as a viable, economic choice over cable. Speaking frankly, in my view it would be irresponsible for a broadcaster providing new alternate SD programming that viewers are watching, to simply turn off that content on the off chance that a small minority of technical purists may or may not see a difference in the HD video.

Another thing to consider is that some cable MSO's which (usually begrudgingly), carry the alternate, dot two or three channels; require broadcasters to provide those alternate channels 24/7, or risk losing that space on the cable system.

Going back to my original point speaking as a broadcaster; is that when folks come onto sites like this and make statements that artifacts are being created on an HD channel solely because a broadcaster is running ancillary multicast channels is in fact not providing an accurate picture (pardon the pun) to non-HD technically savvy readers. There are factors too numerous to mention, which can affect any individual viewer experience positive or negative. The factors span from production of the content, transfer of the content, transmission of the content and display of the content. And to top it all off; all of these factors can be accumulative by nature.

Going back to my original point speaking as a broadcaster; is that when folks come onto sites like this and make statements that artifacts are being created on an HD channel solely because a broadcaster is running ancillary multicast channels is in fact not providing an accurate picture (pardon the pun) to non-HD technically savvy readers.

To be clear though, I never claimed that. And I would agree with you that such a characterization is not at all accurate.

What I said was along the lines of:
"Would dedicating the full bandwidth have made that perfect? No, but I'll bet it wouldn't look quite so hideous"

Which is not really debatable. You can't strip bandwidth away for other tasks and not suffer some consequences if nothing else improves (codec, etc). Choosing to broadcast sub-channels comes at an inevitable cost, and the more bandwidth that is dedicated to those sub-channels, the less bandwidth is available for the main channel. And that inevitably leads to degradation of the main channel. And as I made clear before, this obviously isn't the only source of PQ degradation, nor would dedicating the full bandwidth to the main channel alone be anywhere near sufficient to avoid all compression artifacts on high-entropy content.

But we can't claim that lowering the bandwidth dedicated to a channel makes no difference. The best we can say is that most people won't notice and won't care, something I alluded to before.

We went by the site this afternoon and the new top tower sections are already up. They are now installing new coax sections and are about 1/4 of the way to the top.

I asked the boss about the time schedule for the new antenna to be functioning and I quoted Myron (above): "KOMO's intent is to have their new antenna operational the 1st week of March". He reponded: the antenna will be delivered this coming Friday and we will have it up well before March 1st.

Does anyone know if KOMO has turned on the new tower top antenna? Just wondering because both myself and a coworker have seen a significant increase in signal strength since around Wednesday. Maybe it is just the nicer weather.

Does anyone know if KOMO has turned on the new tower top antenna? Just wondering because both myself and a coworker have seen a significant increase in signal strength since around Wednesday. Maybe it is just the nicer weather.
KOMO-TV started transmitting on their new antenna at 9-am this past Wednesday. 880-KW ERP horizontal, 176-KW vertical. Omni-directional (equal in all directions). Nice new LED beacons, too.

KOMO-TV started transmitting on their new antenna at 9-am this past Wednesday. 880-KW ERP horizontal, 176-KW vertical. Omni-directional (equal in all directions). Nice new LED beacons, too.

Good to know. It definitely helped signal strength on my Sony DVR's tuner. I went from having touch and go reception to a steady 88% signal strength.

Any pix of the antenna raising, Jim? I'll have to check out the signal strength when I get home for spring break. The only QA stations I could get were KING and occasionally KONG, both via reflections off the cliffs across the Narrows. Got a 250' cliff behind my house...can't quite do the direct signal :p

KOMO-TV started transmitting on their new antenna at 9-am this past Wednesday. 880-KW ERP horizontal, 176-KW vertical. Omni-directional (equal in all directions). Nice new LED beacons, too.

Wow, what an improvement! KOMO went from no signal to solid reception (Signal Strength 100, SNR 25 dB on my Vizio).

Double WOW! My No Signal to sometimes a 1, is now 7 to 8. Good job KOMO!

But we can't claim that lowering the bandwidth dedicated to a channel makes no difference. The best we can say is that most people won't notice and won't care, something I alluded to before.

Everyone involved in this conversation knows a LOT more than me about these things, so I'll preface this with an admission that it probably IS a stupid question:

Are the feeds from the networks actually 19Mbps or are they already rate-shaped down to something less? If the "full" feed ABC (for the sake of argument) is providing is 12Mbps, does adding a subchannel of less than, say, 6Mbps make any real world difference?

I guess my question is, since the ABC, Fox, MyTV, and NBC O&Os are all multicasting (in the cases of ABC and NBC, more heavily than are the affiliates here), do those networks bother providing a "full bitrate" feed? (I would imagine the situation is different in terms of what feeds are provided by CBS/CW, where corporate doesn't seem to allow their O&Os to multicast?)

Fox is already reduced to 16 Mbps or so. The rest of the networks, to my knowledge, provide feeds in excess of 19 Mbps.

- Trip

Everyone involved in this conversation knows a LOT more than me about these things, so I'll preface this with an admission that it probably IS a stupid question:

Are the feeds from the networks actually 19Mbps or are they already rate-shaped down to something less? If the "full" feed ABC (for the sake of argument) is providing is 12Mbps, does adding a subchannel of less than, say, 6Mbps make any real world difference?

I guess my question is, since the ABC, Fox, MyTV, and NBC O&Os are all multicasting (in the cases of ABC and NBC, more heavily than are the affiliates here), do those networks bother providing a "full bitrate" feed? (I would imagine the situation is different in terms of what feeds are provided by CBS/CW, where corporate doesn't seem to allow their O&Os to multicast?)

You know, to be perfectly honest, I don't know what PBS is currently sending us. I'll find out and let you know. At one point PBS sent a pre-fabbed feed that was "transmitter ready." All a Mom-N-Pop station had to do was grab a cable from the sat receiver and jack it into an exciter and away ya go. KCTS never used it and I don't know if PBS even still supplies it.

To answer the rest of your question, if your network was handing you 12Mbps, and >>>ALL YOU DID<<< was pass it through without decoding it to baseband video and audio, bugging it, or doing anything else to it, than no, adding a 6Mbps signal would make no difference to the original 12 at all.

However, keep in mind, that every encode/decode cycle, no matter how good, will detract from the quality of whatever stream you were handed in the first place. In other words, if you took that 12Mbps, decoded it to baseband, ran it through a system, monkeyed around with it and reencoded it back to 12Mbps you'd get a signal out the other end that was comprimised when compared to the signal you were handed in the first place. I'm not really sure I'm making sense here.....

At that point, I'd want to reencode to more than 12Mbps. I also recognize that this not always possible for a myriad of reasons. At that point, I'd want as much of the available bandwidth as I could get. In other words, the other 6ish Mbps that are generally available in the ATSC stream.

So I'm curious what people are using to watch the ATSC signals we all seem to feel so passionatly about. I'm curious about several things and I recognize that the answers to the first three questions could very well be the same.

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?

Mmmkay, i'll bite...



Best rig: Depends on if I'm at home or at school. Home is a Panasonic TH-42PZ700U 1080P plasma. Everything getting fed to it (except OTA) is run via HDMI through a Rotel RSX-1058 and scaled to 1080P. Everything broadcast (cable, sat) sends the channel's native format to the 1058 to be scaled. Slightly different story at school. School is a Panasonic TH-42PX80U 720P plasma being fed straight QAM.
Least rig that watches broadcast sources is a little Hitachi 14" or so TV from the early 80's. Currently connected to an Insignia CECB in my bedroom. It's the best that TV has ever looked running ATSC.
Most watching: Both plasmas.
At home we've got Click Network cable for the locals and DirecTV for everything else. For a while when Click didn't carry KING and KONG on their basic HD package, I used a homebrew bowtie antenna to try and get 5 and 16 OTA. Used it to watch the '08 olympics. Now the antenna does nothing as Click finally started carrying KBTC's HD feed which is the other thing I was using it for when KBTC finally went HD in November. School is a lot more simple, QAM cable from Time Warner.

Stations are operating two forms of Serial Digital Interface (SDI) signals -- Standard definition is referred to as SDI and the High Definition signals are HD-SDI. The Standard Definition signal is 270-Mbits/second and the HD-SDI signal is 1.485-Gbits/second. Signals delivered by the networks may or not be compressed and if compressed may be using MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 compression. The amount of compression is purely a function of what the distributor considers to be acceptable loss of detail and/or bandwidth of the fiber or satellite channel used. Either way, the signal is usually de-compressed for passing through the station to allow local branding and commercial insertion. The station's signal, then, is MPEG-2 compressed and sent either by ASI packets or SMPTE310 format to the transmitter where it is transcoded to 8VSB (ATSC) transmission. The station's MPEG-2 encoder is where the bandwidth for the given program is determined -- how much compression will take place.

As for motion, consider this: A FRAME is one complete image. A FIELD is one-half of the full complete image. In 1080i, it takes two fields to make one full FRAME and one complete picture. This is decoded in memory and on a non-picture tube display device, the whole image moves to the display surface at once. This is the refresh rate (roughly 30 per second). 720p gives a full image with every scan -- so you actually get 60 full images per second (which is actually 60 full FRAMES by definition). If the refresh rate of the display device is 60, then you get great motion detail. 1080i, because of more pixel information per full FRAME of video gives more static detail in each picture, but can only complete the picture 30 times per second.

1080i takes up more memory and is more complicated to decode because a full field of memory must be stored and the second field interlaced in before the full image is passed to the LCD, LED, or Plasma surface. 720p allows for the image to pass to the surface twice as fast and therefore uses less memory.

I hope this helps in understanding the process.

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"

Best rig is my LG 42LH50 LCD, being fed OTA and Internet.

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"

My old reliable 1993ish Panasonic 20" garage TV hooked to a TR40cra converter box. Picture is still great.

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?

The LG

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?

Mostly OTA. No cable or satellite. However, we have been watching more Netfix since it's built into the TV and we have been watching alot of our "missed" shows on Hulu, since it's easy to hook a laptop to the LG. I would say 25% of our viewing is sourced online, and that figure is likely to grow if the online content continues to improve and stay free.

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"
Mitsubishi 62" 720p DLP Rear Projection using internal ATSC tuner

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"
Sony 32" analog CRT using CM-7000 d2a converter

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?
15" LCD laptop

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?
I'm between Seattle and Portland a lot so most of my viewing is via the internet on my little laptop. Lots of hulu and various network websites to stream episodes I missed on broadcast. When I'm watching socially with the family, I usually end up watching OTA on my Sony 32" analog. I usually center-cut the HD shows and switch to letterboxed if I'm missing stuff. For special stuff that I have to catch on HD (cable or Blu-ray), I watch on the 62". The last (HD) is probably the least frequent viewing. My viewing habits have changed a lot over time. In the past, I've used to Tivo almost exclusively on a Series 2 and then switched to a Windows Media Center PC for HD recording OTA. Now, I just watch when it's broadcast or try to catch it via internet streaming for those I missed.

I was going to address the below in one of my future posts but some of “Kelly From KOMO” most recent comments really said it well again.

To repeat what Kelly said:
“Going back to my original point speaking as a broadcaster; is that when folks come onto sites like this and make statements that artifacts are being created on an HD channel solely because a broadcaster is running ancillary multicast channels is in fact not providing an accurate picture (pardon the pun) to non-HD technically savvy readers. There are factors too numerous to mention, which can affect any individual viewer experience positive or negative. The factors span from production of the content, transfer of the content, transmission of the content and display of the content. And to top it all off; all of these factors can be accumulative by nature.”

I couldn’t agree more with what Kelly said. Television broadcasters are being blamed for signal problems when in fact they typically are delivering excellent signals whether directly via OTA or via OTA, microwave, cable, or fiber to the cable or satellite providers.

Denver is an example of undue criticism. The local NBC affiliate, KUSA-Channel 9 has been criticized very pointedly and with much anger for “bit starvation” in the AVS Forum Denver OTA forum, especially during the Olympic Games. KUSA ( RF9) broadcasts three sub channels: 9.1 in 1080i 16:9 (NBC), 9.2 in 480i 4:3 (AccuWeather and local weather info and advertising, and 9.3 in 480i 4:3 (NBC Universal Sports).

KUSA is the flagship station for the Gannett (USA Today) broadcast properties and lead the market with local HD several years ago years ahead of any local competition. They have a recently constructed transmitter plant with a new tower, new antenna, new transmission lines, etc., on one of the mountains to the west of Denver. The state of the art facility is shared with three other maximized full power stations including the ABC and CBS affiliates.

As I have watched the Olympics, unlike the persons posting to the Denver OTA AVS Forum, I have not seen visible evidence of “bit starvation” (pixilation) on my highest quality HDTV, even when watching closely for the problem from a foot away on high motion content. This HDTV is a top-of-the-line 1080p 120 Hz model from a major name brand manufacturer available at any big box electronics retailer. It receives its signal via an old attic mounted Vagi VHF/UHF antenna about 20 feet above ground level with a 20 dB booster amp at the TV end.

Even more interesting, my discount retailer house brand 720p 60 Hz kitchen counter HDTV using a powered VHF rabbit ears/UHF loop sitting next to the TV appears to have no “bit starvation” problems either.

In addition, I’m located in a signal challenged area at the base of a mesa which blocks my line-of-sight to the KUSA transmitter site 15 miles away. However, I consistently receive a solid signal from the attic antenna system. The kitchen HDTV using the lower height rabbit ears have an occasional atmospheric related issue, most likely temperature inversions causing multipath signal cancellation.

So why is it that other viewers have serious image quality problems? Having talked to numerous viewers as a public contact person from the broadcast industry during the final DTV transition crush last year, it appears many OTA viewers have very poor antenna systems. Further, I have a strong sense that the proprietary ATSC algorithms including multipath reduction capabilities of lesser quality and/or older HDTVs are the cause of substantial problems.

So, please accept what Kelly has said in his recent multiple posts – he is correct. In addition, I agree with Kelly that 720p/60 is the superior ATSC delivery format at this point in time. And we broadcasting engineering types really do care about our video and audio quality. Really!

BTW, I have a son that lives in Seattle. He has also experienced the audio problems on the Olympic Games that have been discussed in this forum. He is on Comcast cable. Here in Denver, we only had a few audio dropouts of a few seconds length on the Opening Ceremonies. In the following nights, we have had less audio dropouts each night. I did not hear an audio dropout tonight (Friday, 2/19).

Seattle is a beautiful city with the surrounding mountains and inland ocean. I love to ride the ferries and explore the region. I’m looking forward to my next visit!

However, keep in mind, that every encode/decode cycle, no matter how good, will detract from the quality of whatever stream you were handed in the first place. In other words, if you took that 12Mbps, decoded it to baseband, ran it through a system, monkeyed around with it and reencoded it back to 12Mbps you'd get a signal out the other end that was comprimised when compared to the signal you were handed in the first place. I'm not really sure I'm making sense here.....

Total sense, thanks Tim. :) That's the bit I was overlooking in trying to follow this whole thread: every MPEG decode/re-encode loses a bit of quality! If you decode, then re-encode, artifacts and all... I gotcha. :-D

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"

Sony 36" 1080i CRT, LG LST-3510A

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"

Emerson 10" 480i CRT, Zenith DTT900

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?

Sylvania 27" 480i CRT, RJTech RJ-1000ATSC

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?

Comcast QAM on the LG & RJTech, OTA 8VSB on the Zenith

[QUOTE=Myron;18171224]
1080i takes up more memory and is more complicated to decode because a full field of memory must be stored and the second field interlaced in before the full image is passed to the LCD, LED, or Plasma surface. [QUOTE]

How does this process affect the 1080i spatial resolution effect once it is on the display surface?

[QUOTE=Myron;18171224]
1080i takes up more memory and is more complicated to decode because a full field of memory must be stored and the second field interlaced in before the full image is passed to the LCD, LED, or Plasma surface. [QUOTE]

How does this process affect the 1080i spatial resolution effect once it is on the display surface?

This is a fascinating question, and another negative in the 1080i bag. However, it's not really the fault of 1080i necessarily, but is kind of inherent in practice. With a CRT display, 1080i can remain 1080i, because a CRT can just display that as interlaced 1080i.

But relatively few consumers have CRTs these days, and most that do are legacy 480i CRTs, so the reality is that most people are using some kind of digital HDTV, and that's becoming 1080p displays more and more frequently, which means that 1080i has to be scaled/deinterlaced to 1080p. And how that is done becomes a huge factor in the final image quality, something that broadcasters for instance have no control over and isn't their fault.

Because it's 1080i, it becomes very difficult to deal with because you can't just weave the two fields together into a 1080p picture unless the image is static otherwise you get tearing artifacts because handling each field in an interlaced image as part of the same moment in time as one coherent frame is not correct. So more advanced motion-adaptive deinterlacing is required, which is much more complex, requires holding more fields in memory, and is expensive. As processing power has gotten cheap though, it's become a LOT more affordable, no longer costing many thousands of dollars. Poor deinterlacing, common in a lot of consumer displays, leaves you with reduced spatial resolution, motion artifacts from weave deinterlacing, or both.

So I'm curious what people are using to watch the ATSC signals we all seem to feel so passionatly about. I'm curious about several things and I recognize that the answers to the first three questions could very well be the same.

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?

I only have one rig for personal use, which is a front-projection system. I'm using a JVC RS20 (aka the HD750). It's calibrated, and I have memories for both SMPTE C and Rec709 gamut for convenient switching between the two as needed. Hence why I referred to it as a 'reference system.' There isn't really anything out there better right now, only a couple of comparable displays such as the Sim2 Lumis or the Planar 8150, at least for projection.

I'm using an older FusionHDTV card in my HTPC, and it has worked well for me thus far. I get reception and quality comparable to countless OTA systems and Comcast re-broadcasts I've seen on zillions of other systems. I almost never experience glitches that would be from signal problems or weak signal.

I had cable via Comcast, I now just use an antenna. It's a cheapie radio shack antenna, but I am located in maple leaf(on the hill) with relatively unobstructed path towards downtown/queen anne, and I get very good signals of everything except Q13 which is still a solid signal for me anyway, but not as strong as the rest. I don't watch an enormous amount of TV on my system because it's a dedicated theater space, not really amenable to casual TV watching. And most of my TV watching is news (PBS, CSPAN), so I usually just watch that online on my office computer while I'm doing other things. Powering up the whole theater is kind of a hassle just to see if anything is on TV, and usually there isn't. I generally use it for special events like the superbowl, or other stuff like that. HD doesn't provide me an enormous amount of value for talking heads. I don't really have the hots for Jim Lehrer in full visual glory... :o

Most of my watching is movies, heavily BD these days, but I do still watch a lot of DVD as there are a lot of movies not out on BD yet, particularly foreign and independent stuff which I watch a lot of.

This is a fascinating question, and another negative in the 1080i bag. However, it's not really the fault of 1080i necessarily, but is kind of inherent in practice. With a CRT display, 1080i can remain 1080i, because a CRT can just display that as interlaced 1080i.

Which is part of what brings on my nasty rant about display devices and their ability, or lack thereof, to render some of this stuff.

My main system is an older Mitsubishi three tube rear projection system. It's a bear to keep lined up but it makes a really sweet, bright, picture when it is properly setup. It also has the advantage (?) of being 1080i native display. At least I don't have to wonder if the deinterlacer in the set is doing something bizarre to the broadcast signal.

tshall wrote questions:

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"
Sony 40XBR-7xxxx

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"
Toshiba MV13JDIC / Channel Master CM-7000

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?
The Sony

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?
Only OTA and still finalizing the antenna setup.

A question I've never heard asked or discussed:

Does any consumer TV viewing device, e.g., LCD HDTV, that is a 720p/60 display sizing pass through a broadcast ATSC 720p/60 signal with no decoding/recoding of the received signal?

A question I've never heard asked or discussed:

Does any consumer TV viewing device, e.g., LCD HDTV, that is a 720p/60 display sizing pass through a broadcast ATSC 720p/60 signal with no decoding/recoding of the received signal?
I believe Samsung (I think they advertise as the official monitor of NASCAR) has a native resolution of 720p. ALL MPEG signals are decoded. The difference is the interpolation of one format to the native format of the display screen. If the native resolution of the display is 1080, then the extra lines from 720 must be calculated and it goes the other way when the display is native 720. So, if the display matches the original signal, then there can be a line for line match. The refresh rate of the monitor will automatically match the signal to be displayed.

A question I've never heard asked or discussed:

Does any consumer TV viewing device, e.g., LCD HDTV, that is a 720p/60 display sizing pass through a broadcast ATSC 720p/60 signal with no decoding/recoding of the received signal?

I don't understand what you mean.

If you're talking about a native pixel map of 720p, then yes there are displays that do this just as there are 1080p displays that do this with 1080p content.

I mean, obviously it's being decoded somewhere from MPEG 2 and into RGB, etc, that may be happening in the tuner on-board the TV or from whatever box you're using as a source.

And of course you do still have the LUTs in the TV to de-gamma.

Usually if the TV messes with it, it's because it's overscanning, or it's moving back to YCbCr to give you colorrific 'features' but it wouldn't be re-compressing it or anything like that. And there is of course also the concern of the display having enough bit-depth to avoid banding, which is a very VERY common problem on a lot of consumer displays (but it's also a pretty common problem on broadcast content too soo...)

A question I've never heard asked or discussed:

Does any consumer TV viewing device, e.g., LCD HDTV, that is a 720p/60 display sizing pass through a broadcast ATSC 720p/60 signal with no decoding/recoding of the received signal?

I gotta go with Mr. Wiggles on this one. I'm not sure I understand the question. Until God makes the visual interface to the human brain digital, at some point in the process, the set is going to have to decode to something analog to drive the display surface. The technology of the display surface is irrelevant at that point.

Now, I suppose it is possible that the set could take everything it receives, 1080i, 1080p, 720p, analog or whatever and pump it through some sort of decode/encode process. But what would be the point of running a 720p signal through a decode/encode process to drive a 720p display? Or am I missing something here?

You're correct. The display is the display as designed in the TV. For example; my newer Panasonic 50" is technically 720P display all the time even if is showing a 1080I broadcast, 1080P DVD, or whatever. The various processing in your TV adjusts the format to work on the particular display with progressive scanning. That's why one can plug your computer directly into the D-DVI input and it works just like a standard computer monitor.

1.) What do you consider to be your "best rig?"

2.) What do you consider to be your "least rig?"

3.) What do you do a majority of your watching on?

4.) Do you acquire most of your signals via cable, satellite, OTA or something else?

1.) MythTV based system with two tuner cards. Hauppauge HVR-1250 and Kworld 115. Primary display is a Samsung LCD, which also has a tuner but not often used.

2.) Old CRT television with a Insignia STB. Don't even know the model, I use it that rarely.

3.) MythTV system

4.) OTA with rooftop antennas into the Myth and Samsung, also Hulu and some podcasts. Insignia uses a set of bunny ears.