Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 38

DanKurts

11-07-11, 01:01 AM

I'm looking for some suggestions on my OTA setup as it is having dropouts and I can't get rid of them. I'm at "nw 62nd st and 9th ave nw seattle wa" and have a roof mounted Channel Master 4221.

I have worked through most all suggestions on this thread including.
Replacing cables & connectors
Removing splitters
Changing position of antenna
Swapping out tuners

At this point I think that interference is the problem. I have systematically shut off things like my weather station and wifi to eliminate those sources. Most recently I have re-cabled the antenna and tried a number of attenuator combinations. Even with 21db of attenuator in line the dropouts continue and seem to have no effect.

Now I'm looking into FM trap as a next step. Has anybody used/needed one of these in ballard or close by? Other suggestions?

Thanks,
Blake

Blake
Good job of troubleshooting!
I've installed many antennas around you, and like Jim said, usually a slam dunk. You may have trouble with channels 9-11-13, as the 4221 wasn't really designed for VHF. True, being close to the towers can make it work, but could give problems for those channels. 21db of attenuation is NOT too much, as it's very easy to get +30 to +45 db there. If you have an overly sensitive tuner, it's possible to overload it near +20db, but not too likely.
There's no FM around you of any major strength, like the TV towers are. FM is also far below UHF. The FM traps were really only for eliminating herringbone in the picture on the analog stuff, and usually only when you used an amplifier as well. With digital, it's not an issue that you need to worry about.

What tuners are you using? How do you have the antenna and cable grounded and to what? Did you replace the balun? Have you shut off ALL the electrical in the house? By that I mean, obviously, if you did it all at once nothing would work. However, you could run an extension cord to another plug that still had power so you could systematically shut off everything.
Does your neighbor have a sodium vapor light? Do the dropouts come at any predictable times? Are you near somebody with a neon sign? Are there any trees in the way, specially Fir or Cedar trees? Any big Ham radio or CB antennas within a 100 yards or so?
I know there's a bunch of business' up at 65th and 8th, and heading east over to 3rd, but I would find it hard to imagine any of them being the bad guy. And your antenna has a pretty good rejection to that from where you are. Can't remember anything nearby at your location but houses.

A not so hi-tech way of locating noise is with a battery powered AM radio, tuned to a blank spot on the dial. Walk around with it. When you get near a light switch dimmer that's on, you'll hear it. Then take it outside near the antenna and see what gives.

Let me know what you find.
Dan

trode

11-07-11, 01:56 AM

DanKurts

11-07-11, 10:39 PM

Tuners are EyeTV 500, Original HDHomeRun and the Current HDHomerun. The hd homerun allowed me to shut off all the living room equipment and test it from a basement computer. Still the same dropouts. Regular interval for the most part.

Antenna is grounded to the main electrical ground of the house. I even tried disconnecting that to see if interference was coming from the ground.

With the Attenuators I was able to drop signal levels as reported by eyeTV software to ~70% and was still seeing the dropouts. King 5 antenna is direct LOS so no trees involved with that channel. Dropouts seem consistent across channels.

I haven't tried replacing the balun yet. I don't think anybody has any high powered lights or neon as it's all houses for quite a few blocks. I guess I could do eyetv 500 and a laptop with the house main breaker off :-)

Blake
Again, very logical troubleshooting, good job!
I'm not familiar with the tuners you have, so I can't comment on them. It's hard to believe all would be bad, though. I'm assuming the Mac is running when you watch TV, so is there an instant replay while watching live TV?
Are the Macs your only display, or are they driving a regular TV as well? What are the time intervals of the breakups? Is it picture tiling, freezing, audio droputs, all the above? Do they show up on the Mac display as well?
Is there a big power transformer on a utility pole nearby?
Did you try the AM radio test? It would be interesting to see if you heard an increase in noise on it at the same time a breakup occurs.

If possible, and the time interval of breakups is often enough, try running one of the newer Macs on battery, house off power, and see what happens.

Last, have you tried a regular over air tuner made to work with TV's?

Edit: just saw something on the EyeTV on a blog that was interesting.

https://josephhall.org/nqb2/index.php/elgato

If that's true, and you have other things going on in the Macs background, and all your viewing is on Macs, could be the CPU is choking.
Also, was this problem occuring from the start of your over air project, or was it initially working fine for some period of time and then went south?

Hang in there, we'll track this down!

Dan

trode

11-08-11, 11:05 PM

DanKurts

11-09-11, 02:19 AM

My main htpc is a Mac mini and I have also tested from a second system as HDhomeRun is accessible over the network. The Mac drives an older HP LCD tv.

Time interval seems like 3/4 a second to 2 seconds. Problem got worse after moving the antenna from the attic to the roof. Using the eyetv software the whole image stutters but audio usually continues. If I use HDhomeRun software in combination with vlc I see horizontal artifacts in the image.

I'm confident it's not a computer issue after 15+ years as a Mac IT guy. So I will try some more process of elimination tests next weekend.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Blake
Definitely sounds like you're picking up some stray noise from outside the house.
Change the balun first, if you can. It may have gone wierd on you during the move. The wire inside is really tiny and fragile. If the f fitting gets tweaked or turns inside the plastic it can break it. Your signal may still be strong enough for it to work, but you loose your ground. Make sure you keep leads from the balun to the antenna separated and evenly spaced and not twisted together.

If you have a friend with a HD tuner, connect it directly to the LCD TV and see what happens. And definitely try the no house power as a last test.
It's going to be a bit wet this weekend, stay safe on the roof!
Dan

afurdell

11-10-11, 12:41 AM

Hey all,

I'm on the west slope of Beacon Hill, and I'm using an RCA ANT751 antenna. I've been having a lot of signal trouble, particularly with KING-5, where it would start to scramble or drop audio for several seconds. I attributed this to long RG-59 cable runs (and it's split three ways, too), so I installed a CM7777 pre-amp. Now I don't get KING-5 at all.

Does this mean I had a too-strong signal all along, and I need to toss it and get an attenuator? Or do I need to scrap my cheap antenna and get a more serious one? All advice welcome...thanks!

(Secondary question: I've been thinking about springing for separate UHF and VHF antennae, in an attempt to get FOX in HD. Given my location, is that a hopeless cause, or is there an antenna out there that might work for me?)

ProjectSHO89

11-10-11, 06:25 AM

We would really need to see a TVFool plot in order to more accurately gauge your situation. Go to http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29, enter your address (it won't display on the output report), then paste the resultant URL back here according to that pages instructions for sharing. As a newly joined member, this forum will not allow you to post a web link (thanks to spammers), but if you edit the link by replacing the "." character with the word "dot", we can easily reassemble the link.

Channel 13's transmitter is over on Gold Mtn, overlooking Bremerton and transmits on "real" channel 13. This often makes its direct reception a bit challenging. That TVfool plot will help us in the analysis.

A 7777 is definitely the wrong thing to install. It's about like hitting a tack with a sledgehammer. You're likely getting severe inter-modulation distortion that has caused the loss of KING.

Hey all,

I'm on the west slope of Beacon Hill, and I'm using an RCA ANT751 antenna. I've been having a lot of signal trouble, particularly with KING-5, where it would start to scramble or drop audio for several seconds. I attributed this to long RG-59 cable runs (and it's split three ways, too), so I installed a CM7777 pre-amp. Now I don't get KING-5 at all.

Does this mean I had a too-strong signal all along, and I need to toss it and get an attenuator? Or do I need to scrap my cheap antenna and get a more serious one? All advice welcome...thanks!

(Secondary question: I've been thinking about springing for separate UHF and VHF antennae, in an attempt to get FOX in HD. Given my location, is that a hopeless cause, or is there an antenna out there that might work for me?)

afurdell

11-10-11, 09:49 AM

OK, here's the results:

tvfoolDOTcom/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4bba175323090c

DanKurts

11-11-11, 12:10 AM

afurdell

11-11-11, 02:40 AM

DanKurts

11-11-11, 08:41 PM

I'm right near 23rd and McClellan.

So should I experiment with an attenuator to fix my KING problem? If so, is there someplace I can buy them in Seattle, or do I need to order one online? I'm pretty new to this, as you can tell I'm sure...any direction would be appreciated.

afurdell
It looks like you're on the East side of the hill.
As ProjectSHO89 noted, using that preamp, which is really pretty powerful when you give it a strong signal to begin with, is not wise. Trying to work around it is going to be a nightmare. Remove it.
Your antenna is really decent for where you are. Where the problems come from are many. Ch's 4-5-7-16 signal path goes right down the middle of all the buildings downtown. They can really chop up the signal. It means not all of the signal is getting to you at the same time. There's plenty of signal in terms of level, and for ch's 9-11-22, it's causing you to glow in the dark. If you use a bigger antenna, like a longer yagi, it might help eliminate some of the multipath for QA hill signals, but might make Capital hill ch's tough to get. It's actually better to have a small one like you have now. Trick is finding the sweet spot where you can fudge in both directions. They're spread apart just enough to make it a real challenge.
Ch13 from Gold Mt to the west is going to be very tough. You have a 100ft or more of Beacon hill in the way, and it rises pretty fast until 15th. However, you can get ch13 on ch22-2 in standard def. If you want to try for Gold Mt, it's going to be tough. You'll need a separate antenna, probably a VHF hi band only, with a trap for UHF, and run in on a separate cable to your tuner, with an A/B switch. Trying to couple the antennas on the roof with a Jointenna and use one cable won't work. CH11 is too close and will just overload the coupler.
The best solution for the other channels is to try and find a different location. Just moving it 8" in any direction can make or break. You'll find some channels won't be that fussy, others very touchy. Try and keep it pointed basically towards the Columbia tower and work from there. If you turn it too much towards the Capital hill towers, they will overload your tuner.
If you want to use an attenuator, which couldn't hurt, it might put your levels down a bit and make your tuner work better if it's overly sensitive. (again, this is without any preamplifier) A quick easy way to make one is use a 4way splitter, and install 75ohm terminators on the unused ports. It's equivalent to about 7db of loss.
Patience is the key. Whenever you try a position, give the tuner at least 10 seconds to lock on. You can't just whip it around like finding an analog channel with instant results. If you keep a simple chart, do a scan and record what your tuner results are each time, the tough and difficult channels will jump out, and the easy ones can be somewhat ignored, speeding up the process. If you can kind of sight down the main boom of the antenna, you may notice a building or tree nearby in the general direction, and see the results on the chart. It could be only a few blocks away, but the clearer you can see around the close stuff, the better.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

trode

11-12-11, 06:23 PM

rbico

11-14-11, 01:04 PM

Jim in Seattle

11-14-11, 10:10 PM

DanKurts

11-15-11, 12:35 AM

Turns out my problem ended up being a bad network switch and a firewire tuner that wasn't able to tune well.

I started from scratch and tested all available tuners including the LCD tv. It was able to get all channels without issue. The tip I would share with network attached tuners is to try directly connecting them to a computer via ethernet port and test them that way. That is how I determined that it had to be a network issue when they worked properly that way. I swapped out a 8 port netgear switch with an older 5 port one and now everything works. The switch was failing is such a way that normal tests like ping did not show any problems..

What really confused me was the old firewire tuner was failing in a similar way on the same channels. I have retired the EyeTV 500 and now am using 2 HDHomeRun's to get 4 tuners via the network.

Thanks for the help Jim/Dan and the rest of the posters!

trode
You're welcome. Thanks for the challenge. I had no idea your Mac tuner devices were streaming. Learned another one!
By the way, the ping is very low on the OSI stack. My old laptop I use for programming on site fails a ping, but works fine otherwise. Not worth repairing.
Your basic instinct and troubleshooting methods were right on. If you have another failure, try the Linksys/Cisco hardware. I don't like callbacks, and have been bitten with a variety of hardware and software issues with D-link, Netgear, ASUS and others. There probably are others out there with great reliabilty, but my luck has held well using Linksys/Cisco, and the 24/7 free support is decent, and their tier2 support is great.

After all this, you have the cleanest antenna install around !
Dan

DanKurts

11-15-11, 01:08 AM

Okay, I went out with a compass and tried my best to move the antenna towards 162º which is what that OTA website said the bulk of the stations I want are located. Because I already had the mast installed, I wasn't able to get it exactly where I wanted it, but as close as possible. I swiveled the antenna a little but I still get random pixilation on most of the mainstream networks (kiro,komo,king and fox). Sometime it will go an hour fine, but sometimes it will go a minutes, then pixels, then a message from my TV saying “there is no or a weak signal” – or something to that effect. Then it will pop back on for a minute, then it starts all over. It might be worth noting that when the station is on, it is clear as a bell - better than my previous HD cable.

I forgot to mention that when I was originally hooking up the antenna, I split the coax so I could have a TV in my basement. I have the cable run, but it is not hooked up to the 2nd TV yet or the splitter yet. So I have a 2-way splitter with one cable going to my main TV and the other ready but not hooked up to anything yet.

With that in mind, I called channel master to ask for some advice. They said do not get a bigger antenna; that the 4220 may be too big since I am less than 20 miles from the towers and that if anything my problem might be that I my antenna is over-shooting the Seattle towers. They suggested hooking up the second TV so that it will weaken the signal and possible clear up the pixilation. If that doesn’t work they suggest bypassing the splitter and going directly from the antenna to the TV. If neither of those work, they suggested moving the antenna to the peak of my roof (another 4’) and trying that.

I could move the antenna another 4' up to the exact peak of my roof. this would put the antenna a little higher and I would at that point be able to position the mast exactly where I want it.

What do you think?

here is my tvfool info in it helps:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dec12baa4201296

rbico
Your antenna is waaaaaaaay to small.
Aiming with it is not going to be that critical, won't make much difference.
Whomever you spoke with at Channelmaster hasn't a clue about your terrain problems, so he thinks you're line of sight, which you aren't.
TVFool doesn't account for terrain. Good for finding the directions, though.
The 4228 is not too much for your location.
Going higher usually helps, sure won't cost much to try.
Remove the splitter temporarily. If it solves your problems, you could try a preamplifier, but not recommended. Spend the money on more antenna, no preamp. You'll get a better signal to noise ratio, which digital tuners like.
Always terminate a cable run if you're not using it. RatShack has 75ohm terminators. The open coax run on a splitter can act like a trap and cause all kinds of wierd problems. In strong signal areas it can actually work like an antenna and add more problems as well.
Last, digital will always look perfect when you get a channel to lock on. Not like the old analog days of ghosting, snow, etc when a signal gets weak. When you get right on the minimum amount of digital signal, or the noise level gets to high, comparatively, breakups and pixelation can occur.

Let us know what happens with the mast.
Dan

rbico

11-15-11, 01:42 PM

Rbico,

Per your TVFOOL report it looks to me that you are well east of Lynnwood, so I'd like to know the altitude above sea level where you live and a closer physical location.

I setup a friend in Lynnwood who's TVFOOL looks nothing like yours and he gets over 30 clear channels.

Jim

Thanks for the replies Jim and Dan.
I am on the west end of Lynnwood, but definitely in Lynnwood, about 6 blocks west of 99. i don't know about 30 channels but we my TV said over 30, although some don't come in. I would say we have about 20 channels - counting the foreign stuff. What antenna does your friend have?

I hooked up the second TV via the splitter and immediately had no pixelation on KIRO, KOMO and KING5. Fox was still half frozen, looked like it was made out of legos. I then removed the splitter and added a coupler connecting my antenna directly to ONE TV, and Fox came in clear as a bell, as did the others. This was last night. This morning, with the same connection, Fox is back to legloland but the other stations are great.
TVFool says the Fox tower is 30.8 miles from me, so you are probably right Dan. I took the CM tech guy's information with a grain of salt, but what he said did made sense to me. But I know very little.

I guess I will put the 4228 on the Christmas list, that is if my wife can't live without Fox. I don't care, personally - I just watch Hulu and movies and the news for the weather (which is inaccurate anyway).

DanKurts

11-15-11, 09:28 PM

Thanks for the replies Jim and Dan.
I am on the west end of Lynnwood, but definitely in Lynnwood, about 6 blocks west of 99. i don't know about 30 channels but we my TV said over 30, although some don't come in. I would say we have about 20 channels - counting the foreign stuff. What antenna does your friend have?

I hooked up the second TV via the splitter and immediately had no pixelation on KIRO, KOMO and KING5. Fox was still half frozen, looked like it was made out of legos. I then removed the splitter and added a coupler connecting my antenna directly to ONE TV, and Fox came in clear as a bell, as did the others. This was last night. This morning, with the same connection, Fox is back to legloland but the other stations are great.
TVFool says the Fox tower is 30.8 miles from me, so you are probably right Dan. I took the CM tech guy's information with a grain of salt, but what he said did made sense to me. But I know very little.

I guess I will put the 4228 on the Christmas list, that is if my wife can't live without Fox. I don't care, personally - I just watch Hulu and movies and the news for the weather (which is inaccurate anyway).

rbico
Progress. Good job!
Fox owns both ch13 and ch22. Fox comes in on ch22-2 in standard definition.
Frys in Renton has the 4228.
Merry Christmas, either way !
Dan

Dave_in_MV

11-15-11, 11:58 PM

be236

11-16-11, 12:50 AM

Must be tropo-like conditions today, freezing cold and all... DXing...

Using home-built M4, able to get RF 22, 20 and 43 from up north! Yeah!

be236

11-16-11, 01:49 AM

Yeah, KCTS is on VHF, and your CM 4221 wasn't designed for VHF that low (channel 9).. I guess it can reach down to channel 13 FOX since you seem to be able to get it, unless you're picking it from RF 25.

Some websites claim HD-8800 has better gain than CM 4228HD, while others say the reverse.

If you prefer a signal antenna solution to get KCTS 9, then a CM 4228HD should do the trick for you, or you can add a 2nd VHF antenna and combine it with your CM 4221 (though this can get tricky to combine two antennas).

rbico

11-16-11, 08:06 AM

rbico
Progress. Good job!
Fox owns both ch13 and ch22. Fox comes in on ch22-2 in standard definition.
Frys in Renton has the 4228.
Merry Christmas, either way !
Dan

Thanks for the tips, Dan. Frys is where I got my 4220.

Fox 13 (HD) seems to come in great at night, just not during the day. Seems odd, but whatever. I will try channel 22 until I get the 4228.

Do you know if the 4228 will work with the mast from the 4220mhd?

PeggyD

11-16-11, 05:45 PM

Dave,

Maple Valley is very difficult. We used to live just north of Shadow Lake Elementary & could only get OTA from the West Tiger Mountain transmitters. TVFool's signal locator is worthless & AntennaWeb isn't much better. Neither considers the terrain. Use the Google Maps links on TVFool for much more accurate results.

We moved to Kent last year & now get all the OTA signals.

DanKurts

11-16-11, 07:56 PM

DanKurts

11-16-11, 08:19 PM

Dave_in_MV

11-16-11, 09:53 PM

Dan,

Nearest cross streets: 234th Ave. S.E. and S.E. 253rd Pl.

I'm toward the northern end of 234th.

Dave

DanKurts

11-17-11, 12:13 AM

Hi all,

I've been thinking about cutting the cable and have been reading a lot from this thread. I'm in Maple Valley about 25-30 miles from most of the local channels. I picked up a CM-4221HD from Fry's to see what I might expect.
TV Fool report
www dot tvfool dot com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8d1705e8c82a33
says I should get the major stations (KOMO, KING, KIRO), Fox, ION, etc. and generally I get a good picture but with random drop outs. I cannot get KCTS at all. I do have a large stand of tall trees in the direction of the transmitters.

I also have a CM-7777 since our house is wired with 4 outlets.

A couple of questions:

I assume the dropouts are due to low signal strength so a larger antenna, like a 8 bay e.g., a CM-4228. Is the 4221 too small for my location? Should I try for more height before I swap antennas?

Is Channel 9 (KCTS) too low of a channel for the 4221? Would it make more sense to add a dedicated VHF antenna or just use a larger antenna for both? For example, the 4228 claims to get channels 7-13 out to 45 miles.

Fry's website lists the 4228 at $95, and a Winegard 8 bay (HD-8800) for $40. Is there that much difference in performance and quality to justify the price difference?

Would adding terminators to the unused cable outlets make a significant difference?

Thanks for any input.

Dave

Dave
Good news, your at 570ft elevation.
Bad news, 3 miles of trees before you clear the hill at SE Lake Youngs Road and 190th. TVFool doesn't see trees.

Dropouts aren't always from low signal level. Your preamp has lots of power and can make up for that if you get enough coming in above minimums for it to work.
The main problem is the trees. They tend to really chop up the signal. Makes it very hard for the tuner to lock on. A 4228 would be better than a 4221, specially for the VHF. It's not designed for VHF, but works somewhat.
A yagi style UHF, though, usually works better in these situations. Think of it as helping you to pick your way through the trees, ignoring some of the other ugly signals.
Frys has the CM2020 for about $70. It also has the hi-band VHF for ch's 9-11-13. Combined with your 7777 preamp, that's a pretty good start. You could go for more antenna, but since you're doing pretty well with the 4221, it should work.
The biggest thing is finding the sweet spot. Patience will win out. Make a chart with the main channels and the "strength" numbers you see for each. Sight down the antenna and pick a spot in the distance. Move the antenna a bit one way, identify another spot and note it and numbers, and then do it again. By a bit, like having the nose of the antenna move about four inches.

It takes about 10 to 30 seconds for a tuner to lock on, so you can't whip it around like an old analog antenna and get instant results. After a while you'll see some channels are more sensitive than others. Concentrate on those to shorten the process. Also moving it higher or lower than 8" can make a difference, too. Even moving the mast a bit to a different location just 8" can make it.
The numbers you're seeing aren't really strength, but more like signal quality. You could be very weak, or strong in actual level, and still see the same numbers. If the signal is not good, as viewed on a scope, it won't lock. That's what makes this a real challenge with out test equipment.

Check out the basic direction on a map, or use Google Earth to draw a line from your house to QA Hill and that should get you close.
Also, ch13 comes from much more to the west, so worry about that last. If it doesn't come in, you can use a separate antenna if needed.

Last, I hope you installed the 4way split after the preamp power supply, not between it and the preamp. Definitely use terminators on unused splitter ports, or at the end of the unused cable run.

Keep us informed on your progress!
Dan

Dave_in_MV

11-18-11, 12:49 AM

DanKurts

11-18-11, 02:24 AM

Dan,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I had assumed that I needed a more signal capturing capacity, but I understand your point about trees affecting signal quality. I have my 4221 oriented toward the Queen Anne transmitters using a compass heading and it pointed right at a large stand of trees. I do notice more dropouts when its windy, so I think your analysis is right on.

With a yagi, would it be better to aim for gaps in the trees even if the direction isn't exactly toward the transmitters? Or is it just a matter of experimentation?

The splitters in my house are all hidden in the walls so I have the amp connected between the antenna and a cable outlet. The intent is to drive the signal to all the outlets. Is there a better method?

I think a trip to Fry's is in my future for a CM-2020 and some cable terminators. Hopefully the weather will allow some installation work.

Thanks again.

Dave

Dave
Aiming an antenna is not that exact. In your case, misaiming can actually work to your advantage. With a yagi, it may be as much as 20 degrees either side of perfect. You will see a noticeable difference, though, with very small movements. The 4221 is very wide, and can be turned far more without much change, not very directional. Yes, it's going to take some playing around with direction and location to find that one good spot. If you keep a chart, it will help you narrow down the better gaps in the trees.

All your cable connections are in a daisy chain? Do you know which one is the first one?
The normal way of splitting is to have each run go to one location, and connect to one splitter. That way each run has the same amount, give or take because of cable lengths. A 4way split connected that way would lower the signal level 7db to each TV. When you split it once, and then feed the next splitter, and then the next, and then the last one, the loss to each TV, from beginning to end would be 3.5db, 7db, 10.5db and the last one would be down 14db. There are other considerations, but the main result is far more loss. Your preamp can make up for a lot of that, but if your signal is weak coming in, you can have a lot of signal level, but also a lot more noise. Digital hates noise, makes it hard to figure what's real and what isn't.
If possible, try to figure out where the cable company hooked up their signal. That's where you want the output of the amp to go. Cable companies don't usually configure cabling runs like yours. They get too many problems and callbacks. If you are using a secondary set of runs that someone else did, bail and use the cable company runs.
What I meant with the preamp connection is the preamp is on the roof at the antenna, and the power supply for it is in the house. After the power supply is where you start your run to the rest of the house. If you install a splitter between the preamp and the power supply, it will short out the power and not work. Occasionally, when there's a lot of signal to begin with, some signal will still get through, but it's not reliable. Eventually you'll fry the power supply.
It sounds like you probably have it connected correctly, though, as you are getting a fair amount of channels. Just making sure we're all set up right.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

Taperwood

11-20-11, 01:07 PM

I'm down by the water in Bremerton and hardly ever get KING. Today, Sunday, the 20th, it's booming. My signal quality meter is in the 70's. I've never seen it that high. Usually it's under 30 and unwatchable. I checked here to see if KING had made any changes but don't see any mention. I'm hoping it's not just the weather.

I was reading over on the DBSTalk forums that KING has been dropping their broadcast power levels over the past few weeks. I have noticed that it has been harder to get the signal over the last few days, and they have been the easiest to get for a long time! Does anyone here know anything about this?

Jim in Seattle

11-20-11, 01:43 PM

Taperwood,

I'm on QA Hill and I receive KING via a reflection off of a downtown skyscraper and its signal 'strength' has not changed for me. On occasion I can receive it when I aim my CM-4221 at their tower, but not this morning.

Every once in a while I point my 4221 toward Victoria and rescan to see if by chance any Canadian stations are making the trip and for the first time on this antenna at its current height, my tuner 'discovered' The Shopping Channels. My guess is both of our reception changes are being caused/allowed by the current weather/atmospherics.

Jim

Taperwood

11-20-11, 06:45 PM

Jim,

Thanks. I guess I got my hopes up for nothing. Another thing I just thought of is that the city is doing work on the sewer line on my street and a couple of days ago they parked two big cranes across the street and up a house or two in the general direction of my Seattle signal. I don't watch much TV so today was the first chance I had to notice any changes. I'm wondering if all that steel sitting there has something to do with it. Whatever the case, I'll enjoy it while I can.

Ricky Mac

11-21-11, 12:42 PM

I doubt KCTS is flagging Masterpiece but I thought I just ask really quick.
I haven't been able to record a whole show in sometime. I usually just get a few minutes. Once I got an hour of a 2 hour program.
I've only tried other stations once, and it did work.
I suspect it's a MCE problem. Nothing seems the same after a failed SageTV install.

rdn

11-23-11, 04:06 PM

KR7L

11-23-11, 05:24 PM

be236

11-23-11, 11:26 PM

Jim, I thought you said you already get KVOS from Bellingham (Orcas Island) already... if so, it shouldnt be a suprise you get the "Shopping" channels (RF 19), since they're on the same Mt on Orcas Island..?

Jim in Seattle

11-25-11, 05:42 AM

be236,

KVOS has an ERP of 580 kW which makes the trip but KBCB has only 165 kW ERP and the only time I received them (not dependibly) was this past summer when testing a Terrestrial Digital DB-2 at about 36 feet above ground level. My tuner 'sensed' the KBTC translator in Grays Harbor/LeBam at the same crazy height.

Jim

be236

11-25-11, 10:40 AM

Hi Jim,

Yeah, I knew KBCB (RF 19) had a lower ERP than KVOS, but I just assumed you'd still be able to pick it up still. It must have a lower NM value than KVOS.

I'm about 15 miles closer to KBCB (listed about 62 miles away) and I can get KBCB just fine using an old RS VU-160 or CM 4221 or home built M4 antenna. Its NM is about 9 dB or so for me. (heh).

Also, I can get RF 24 from Orcas as well with its super low ERP. Using M4 or CM 4221, I have it about 15 feet AGL just barely (about 60% signal on my Sony to get picture lock).

I'll assume you can't get RF 24 at all?

Also, we talked a few months back about me trying to get those BC channels. Well, update with a pre-amp (KT200) and M4 (similar to CM4221), I can occasionally now get RF 22 (CHAN), and RF20 (OMNI) with NMs at -8db and 13dB.. amazing , huh? Yes, might be due to tropo conditions, but it's just good to know I can get this. I think I just need a bigger antenna, (maybe CM 4228 or HD-8800) or gang two up to 2.5dB gain.

CHAN is amazing in HD! :-)

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 02:33 PM

be236,

The only way I have been able to receive KBCB is with a DB-2 shoved WAY up in the sky, but it wasn't dependable reception. I checked the REC Networks website and their antenna height above sea level is 42 meters lower than KVOS, so for me its a combination of their lower height and lower ERP.

I'm convinced the DB-2 is undersized and designed for channels at the top of the current UHF band, but if I built a cut-to-channel multi-bar Yagi or a stacked pair, I bet I could capture them. Lucky for me, I don't need to receive that channel!

Jim

be236

11-26-11, 03:04 PM

Yea, I think those DB-2s are like the CM 4221s... they're designed for high UHF, so I made an M4 design (similar to CM 4221) for low UHF... that allowed me to pick up RF 20 and 22 sometimes. heh.

My next project is to build basic SBGH since it might have slightly higher gain ...

If that doesnt work, I'm thinking of getting two HD-8800s and ganging them up.

Oh, Friday 11/25, I went to Fry's and they just had one CM 4220 left.. I dont think they sell CM 4228s (or out of stock and I didnt see).. and I saw they have Channel Master 7000 there.. about $349.. ouch.

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 03:20 PM

be236,

The DB-2 has 6.5" whiskers compared to EV's Kosmic SuperQuad with 10" whiskers. If I get a chance this winter I want to build a 2-bay version of the KSQ. By the way, my friend in Lynnwood lives a couple blocks west of Harvey's Tavern and currently he has a pair of old-style CM-4228's vertically stacked. What a kite!

When you were at Fry's was the OTA TV section poorly stocked? The last two times I was there it was wiped out. You wrote they have a CM-7000 (converter box) for $349 - I hope you meant a CM-7000 PAL DVR!

Jim

ProjectSHO89

11-26-11, 03:29 PM

I'm convinced the DB-2 is undersized and designed for channels at the top of the current UHF band,

That's probably the reason it was redesigned and replaced.

be236

11-26-11, 03:32 PM

Yeah, the shorter whiskers are better for high UHF channels. For me the highest UHF channel from BC is RF 43 (CBUT).. while most of their channels are low UHF (17 to 26,32) that I want.

Do you know if ganged CM 4228s are better than ganged HD-8800s (since those HD-8800s are half the price of CM 4228s). I get conflicting reports of one being better than the others.

Yes, I was in the OTA section yesterday and their selection, they had lots of Yagi types left... and one of those bay types... But I was hoping to see and look at a 4228s, but couldnt find any.

I wish they had more different bays, like HD-8800 or DB4s, etc... or diffferent Yagis, like CM 3023 or MXU59 or 91XG. (heh).

And yes, I mean CM-7000 PAL DVR. That is so expensive for a OTA DVR!? Geez.. It shouldnt be more than a regular DTV box, say around $100-$150 at most?

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 05:03 PM

That's probably the reason it was redesigned and replaced.

ProjectSHO89,

I have a copy of the early version DB-2 that uses a standard balun and a copy of the second generation DB-2 that has an integral balun. What are the characteristics of the replacement 'newest' DB-2?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6088/6070455695_41bb720368.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6161/6164329241_f67a7c285c_m.jpg

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 05:18 PM

ProjectSHO89

11-26-11, 05:32 PM

ProjectSHO89,

I have a copy of the early version DB-2 that uses a standard balun and a copy of the second generation DB-2 that has an integral balun. What are the characteristics of the replacement 'newest' DB-2?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

The only thing different in the two versions you've tried is the balun, the rest is identical.

AD just came out with their newly rescaled )14-51) bowties called the DB2e and DB4e that are somewhere around 20% larger than the old versions. They also have comprehensive tech data sheets posted for each of the new models (look under "Documents").

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 06:30 PM

The only thing different in the two versions you've tried is the balun, the rest is identical.

Correct.

AD just came out with their newly rescaled )14-51) bowties called the DB2e and DB4e that are somewhere around 20% larger than the old versions. They also have comprehensive tech data sheets posted for each of the new models (look under "Documents").

ProjectSHO,

That was news to me and thank you. You are correct about its increased size and their ad is misleading -- from their website: "... We have created an antenna the size of our original DB2 ..."

I measured one of mine and the new version is roughly 4" wider, 3" taller and 2" deeper, that's about one inch narrower than a KSQ or an old-style 4228. Nevertheless, it easily fits within OTARDS limits. I'd like to try one.

Jim

ProjectSHO89

11-26-11, 07:30 PM

OTARD doesn't have any size limits for an OTA antenna. The size limits apply only to satellite dishes. It's a hell of a lot smaller than an original 4228.

No comment about the ad copy....

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 08:27 PM

OTARD doesn't have any size limits for an OTA antenna. The size limits apply only to satellite dishes. It's a hell of a lot smaller than an original 4228.

You are the first to agree with my original take on the OTARD rules. Six 'authorities' I have talked to in person and on other Forums insist it also applies to OTA antennas. Well, now that makes two of us.

Yeah, at just less than half the height and about one inch narrower than an original 4228 the new DB-2e is small, but an original DB-2 is "a hell of a lot smaller", far lighter in weight and it has about 1/3 of the wind loading, not about half. I'd like to try one and thanks for the heads-up on their new products.

Jim

ProjectSHO89

11-26-11, 08:39 PM

I don't know who could possibly misinterpret rather explicit language so as to apply the 1-meter restriction to an OTA antenna and still call themselves an authority. The FCC's and the wording in 47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 is rather explicit in that the one meter rule applies only to DBS antennas (except in Alaska) or for receiving multi-point video or for wireless services.

I've got an original 4228 I bought back around 2002 or 2003 leaning against the garage out back. It's about the same size as a DB8 which is four (4) DB2s in a 2 x 2 stack. I think I still have a DB4 (half a DB8) in the garage. If you need it, I can probably snap a side-by-side photo of them.... Keep in mind that the 4228 is an 8-bay.

Jim in Seattle

11-26-11, 09:27 PM

Keep in mind that the 4228 is an 8-bay.

ProjectSHO89, Please scroll back.

Earlier today, I wrote I have tested a single and a vertically stacked pair of original CM-4228s so I have no use for your photo, but thank you for your offer.

If you would like to see my antenna shootout results using (original design/s) CM-4228 VS CM-4221 VS a KSQ I can post it for everyone to see and to scrutinize.

Jim

Ken H

11-26-11, 09:41 PM

Anyone here watch CBC HD from Vancouver via OTA?

DanKurts

11-27-11, 03:06 AM

be236,

I tried vertically stacking two old-style 4228's here and I saw no reception improvement over a single 4228. I can't say anything about the new 4228, although there is a website that offers ways to improve its performance and I haven't tried an HD-8800.

Two summers ago I did an old fashioned antenna shootout and tested old versions of the CM-4228 and CM-4221 against a Kosmic SuperQuad. I did it the 'poor man's' way, using a stepped attenuator. I'll look around to see if I can find the results. The 4221 won: my conclusion is that I live in an RF soup and the smaller the antenna is, the less multipath it collects. I didn't have a DB-2 at the time but way up high it works as well or better than all of the others for UHF (at my location). Its worthless for VHF.

Jim

Jim
ProjectSHO89 is correct. OTARD size rules are for the satellite dish only. When they started HD broadcasting I encountered this problem many times. I also posted on several other forums with people from all over the US running into the same thing. In every case the OTARD stood up. I've only had a few customers that ran into trouble with HOA's, initially, and once I showed them the website, I never heard back, and the antennas are still up and working.

As for the 4228's, they are not worthless for VHF high band. They're not great, either, but close in, they actually work fair. It all depends on the location and obstacles in the way. Looking at a VHF channel signal on the scope, the last 20% or so falls of rapidly instead of being nice and flat. It can still work if the level is decent and you're not fighting trees or buildings. I've used the 4228 in Ballard, Greenlake, Kirkland, West Seattle and similar areas. It's a good compromise where you want to mount the antenna on the side of a house or where ch13 is not too far off axis. A UHF/VHF yagi style is far better, but requires more room to mount. It's also more narrow in reception, which can be a good thing or bad. Depends again on what you need for the location.

Doing a shootout of any antenna without a meter/scope is tough. The attenuator test does give an indication of where your receivers minimums are for reception, but if you don't know what the real db levels are to start with, your really just testing your tuner. That's okay, it's just not a very thorough test. You will find which antenna works better for your site and tuner. To say that somebody would get the same results somewhere else is just not real.
There are so many other factors that come into play. It's also why there are so many designs for antennas. They all have their good and bad characteristics.
You also need to see what the signal looks like displayed on a scope. It's why going for gain specifications are not the holy grail. You need it, but trying to compare numbers on paper are just not real. You don't know how they tested them. And if you did, was brand A tested the same exact way as brand B.
And no one tests for how they react to trees or buildings or hills or steel roofs or miscellaneous wierdness in the real world.

Stacking.
Works great if you know what is going on when seen on the scope. It's very touchy. Vertical stacking gives very different results from horizontal. And quad arrays are really fun. Spacing between them is critical for what frequency you're trying to center it on. Distance between the couplers is very important, as well as the type of balun. And obviously, the type of antennas you're stacking makes a huge difference. Did I mention the little holes you can get (losing an entire channel when all else is fine) by just turning one slightly more, or moving it up or down too much?!

So, trying to figure out what works best for a particular challenge without being able to really see what's going on is very tough. Trial and error can be done, and can work. A good understanding of all the factors involved will help more.

As for your results with two 4228's not working well, my money is on your location being so hot, and the antennas having far more gain of everything (noise, mutipath, ground waves, harmonics, the neighbors barking dog), the signal was not only garbled, but the waveshape on the scope was all over the place. Using the little antenna got you far less of all that, and your tuner could deal with it.

I do all my shootouts the hard way. Drag around the latest one, try it against my known good ones, in every location, over many months and view it on my meter/scope. After a while, you get a good idea of what it can and can't do.
If I simply tested it out at one location, like home, I might get some idea, but not a true test.

Take all the "shootouts" you read about with a grain of salt. If done with good test equipment, and the setup is explained in detail (how far the transmitters were, what power they put out in what pattern, what frequencies, their height above sea level and the testing site elevation, terrain, temperature, time of day, etc) that's good.
Hearing what one person used at one location, without knowing all the rest of their facts, only says it worked for him. The same antenna might work for many people. Okay, that's worth looking into. If all the facts match up with your needs, great. Base your purchase decision from that perspective.

Yeah, yeah, waay too much coffee again.
We need to get together and tell tall tales!
Dan

be236

11-27-11, 11:13 AM

Anyone here watch CBC HD from Vancouver via OTA?
I have. Occasionally can get CBUT (CBC RF 43). But more often, I get CHAN (RF 22) and OMNI (RF 20), though CBUT shows a better NM value than OMNI. Go figure.

Jim,

I read up on that 'EV's Kosmic SuperQuad,' and its whisker length is similar to M4 that I built (10.5" whisker x 10" bowtie separation). Longer whiskers gives better gain on low UHF end.. so it's probably even or better than my poorly made M4.

Ken H

11-27-11, 01:46 PM

I have. Occasionally can get CBUT (CBC RF 43).When you get a chance, can you verify if they are still running at 1080i HD resolution?

Thanks.

Trip in VA

11-27-11, 01:57 PM

When you get a chance, can you verify if they are still running at 1080i HD resolution?

Thanks.

I have TSReader data from September 3 showing it as 720p. http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/bc-van/179301-0_0.htm

- Trip

valvashon

11-28-11, 07:11 AM

rbico
Progress. Good job!
Fox owns both ch13 and ch22. Fox comes in on ch22-2 in standard definition.
Frys in Renton has the 4228.
Merry Christmas, either way !
Dan

Fox doesn't own channel 13 and 22, Tribune Broadcasting does. The channel 13.1/13.2 (KCPQ-TV) transmitter is on Gold Mountain, west of Bremerton. If your antenna in Lynnwood is pointed toward Seattle, this is why KCPQ looks like Legos. You will need to find a point halfway between Seattle and Bremerton that works or add a Channel 13 cut or VHF hi antenna (13.1/13.2 broadcast on physical channel 13).

Channel 22.1/22.2/22.2 is broadcast on physical channel 25 from Capitol Hill in Seattle. 22.1 is KJZO in HD, 22.2 is KCPQ (13.1) in widescreen SD and 22.3 is Antenna TV in SD.

Val

Ken H

11-28-11, 06:44 PM

I have TSReader data from September 3 showing it as 720p. http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/bc-van/179301-0_0.htm

- Trip

That's what I thought, although it was reported (in various places) just after 9/1 that the CBC digital stations previously on the air were still 1080i.

Thanks Trip.

be236

11-28-11, 10:09 PM

That's what I thought, although it was reported (in various places) just after 9/1 that the CBC digital stations previously on the air were still 1080i.

Thanks Trip.
Well, since CBUT is on 720p now, it still looks crystal clear to me in HD (whenever I pick it up via Tropo conditions). heh..

I can't tell the difference between 1080i and 720p.

Ken H

11-29-11, 10:28 AM

Well, since CBUT is on 720p now, it still looks crystal clear to me in HD (whenever I pick it up via Tropo conditions). heh..

I can't tell the difference between 1080i and 720p.

Like many technical issues, it may depend on how it's handled.

For example, with most ABC stations, they do 720p with at least 1 subchannel which reduces HD bandwidth. FOX does 720p with a unique HD distribution system called the Splicer that can vary the amount of HD bandwidth.

CBC on the other hand uses a consistent amount of HD bandwidth that is usually higher than other OTA networks for 720p. The result, IMO, is a very good looking HD image. I'm just wondering if regular viewers can see a difference between this and their previous HD format of 1080i with slightly higher bandwidth.

be236

11-29-11, 11:09 AM

Like many technical issues, it may depend on how it's handled.

For example, with most ABC stations, they do 720p with at least 1 subchannel which reduces HD bandwidth. FOX does 720p with a unique HD distribution system called the Splicer that can vary the amount of HD bandwidth.

CBC on the other hand uses a consistent amount of HD bandwidth that is usually higher than other OTA networks for 720p. The result, IMO, is a very good looking HD image. I'm just wondering if regular viewers can see a difference between this and their previous HD format of 1080i with slightly higher bandwidth.

When I watch the newscast on CBC (CBUT) and compare it with ABC (KOMO) in Seattle , both at 720p, it seems the CBC broadcast is sharper/clearer than KOMO... heh.

Budget_HT

11-29-11, 05:15 PM

When I watch the newscast on CBC (CBUT) and compare it with ABC (KOMO) in Seattle , both at 720p, it seems the CBC broadcast is sharper/clearer than KOMO... heh.

Unless something has changed recently, the KOMO live news shows are shot and switched at 480i, even though the broadcast rate is 720p. KOMO unfortunately built their new, all digital studio just before HD equipment became available, so they said then.

Jim in Seattle

11-29-11, 10:57 PM

So, a new OTA user should find perfect/accurate information when they access the web.

I don't know who could possibly misinterpret rather explicit language so as to apply the 1-meter restriction to an OTA antenna and still call themselves an authority.

What does Google put in your face? Denny's TV Antenna Sales dot com

... "What this means is the EZ-HD TV antenna is not effected by rules and regulations prohibiting the use of outdoor TV antennas. This Federal ruling is part of the Federal Communication act of 1996 and can be viewed on the FCC website.

As you can see by the picture we didn't waste 1 inch of space. We wanted the best possible reception even for those people living in antenna restricted areas." ...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7016/6428828445_51f5fa35e6_m.jpg

[B]For the record I have saved about three (short) e-mail conversations with Denny and he backed down after he learned I HAVE A COPY OF HIS INVOICE to a friend of mine who lives in Renton: his business sold my friend an ABSURDLY GIGANTIC antenna for his location.

If necessary, I can attach the images of BOTH the invoice and the gigantic antenna that should astonish all here.

Jim

ProjectSHO89

11-30-11, 07:21 AM

Yeah, I know Denny's site is one of those that misinterprets OTARD. I think I've made that observation on one of these sites previously. Given his marketing and testing methods, I doubt he's going to be affected by facts....

rbico

11-30-11, 11:43 AM

Thanks for the tips, Dan. Frys is where I got my 4220.

Fox 13 (HD) seems to come in great at night, just not during the day. Seems odd, but whatever. I will try channel 22 until I get the 4228.

Do you know if the 4228 will work with the mast from the 4220mhd?

rbico
The 4228 is about 30" high, so it won't work with the foot and mast on yours.
Depending on where you mount it, a fairly strong bracket needs to be used. There's a lot wind load with the 4228. If possible, an eave mount would work without having to go into the roof,
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/image/21022193.jpg
or a chimney mount
http://www.rfwiz.com/images/AustinAntenna/Ferret_on_House200pm.jpg
Make sure you have about 15" to 20" above the roof peak or chimney top. Just enough so they won't affect the antenna reception. You also don't want to allow the antenna to have too much leverage over the mount, like a 10' mast anchored at the bottom and 3' up, with 7' left above hanging in the wind. Sure disaster.
Dan

Well a new mast and stuff is not in the cards. I was all set to go out and get the 4228 as it was okay with my budget and it sounded like an easy swap-out. Again, Channel master techs said the 4220 mast would work with the 4228. The guy even double-checked with his supervisor, of course they also told me the 4220 was big enough. He said I would have to have the antenna hang over the edge of the roof, though. Are you sure the mast wont work? Check outhttp://snewpy.com/album/2010/10/pa099819.jpg. The 4220 mast seems very stable and since it has a low center of gravity, I would think the 4228 would be fine. I could add a guy-wire or two, but is that even necessary? Are there any alternatives? the 4221 maybe or some other antenna where I could use the same mast?

For the record, after more watching, fox (13-1) only comes in at night, but I rarely watch anything on that channel anyway. King and Komo are hit and miss, mostly miss; especially on windy or rainy days - and those are the channels I do want.

Maybe I will try messing with the direction, and/or moving the mast a little higher up on my roof before buying a new antenna.

Thanks for the ongoing help and advice.

rdn

11-30-11, 04:35 PM

Unless something has changed recently, the KOMO live news shows are shot and switched at 480i, even though the broadcast rate is 720p. KOMO unfortunately built their new, all digital studio just before HD equipment became available, so they said then.

Given that, the 11 am news on 4.2 should look almost the same as that on 4.1 but it is much less sharp (and much less sharp than most other 420p subchannels, even those with lower bitrates).

DanKurts

12-01-11, 01:56 AM

Well a new mast and stuff is not in the cards. I was all set to go out and get the 4228 as it was okay with my budget and it sounded like an easy swap-out. Again, Channel master techs said the 4220 mast would work with the 4228. The guy even double-checked with his supervisor, of course they also told me the 4220 was big enough. He said I would have to have the antenna hang over the edge of the roof, though. Are you sure the mast wont work? Check outhttp://snewpy.com/album/2010/10/pa099819.jpg. The 4220 mast seems very stable and since it has a low center of gravity, I would think the 4228 would be fine. I could add a guy-wire or two, but is that even necessary? Are there any alternatives? the 4221 maybe or some other antenna where I could use the same mast?

For the record, after more watching, fox (13-1) only comes in at night, but I rarely watch anything on that channel anyway. King and Komo are hit and miss, mostly miss; especially on windy or rainy days - and those are the channels I do want.

Maybe I will try messing with the direction, and/or moving the mast a little higher up on my roof before buying a new antenna.

Thanks for the ongoing help and advice.

rbico
You're welcome, always enjoy helping good people!

The guys you're talking to at Channelmaster must not be listening to what your trying to get across to them. Not uncommon. Not sure what he means by hanging it over the edge of the roof.....

The CM4220MHD I've seen has a very short mast

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=4220-MHD&d=Channel-Master-4220MHD-2-Bay-HDTV/UHF-TV-Antenna-With-Mount&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base

The picture you enclosed is of a 4228 mounted on a DS-3000 satellite mount, 39" high.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DS-3000&d=DS3000-39-Inch-JMount-for-DBS-Satellite-Dish--Outdoor-TV-Antenna-(DS3000)&c=Mounting Supplies&sku=

It has a similar foot, bit bigger, but much longer vertical portion. I have used these occasionally, for special installs. It could work, but you need to brace up the mast from the back side with some long brackets. If you leave it by itself, like in the picture, it will not stay in that position over time. The antenna will work the mast against the bolts at the bottom from windy days. It's only being held in place by squeezing the pipe with those bolts. Eventually it will get loose, no matter how hard you try to tighten it (been there, tried that, learned my lesson). You cannot use guy wires, as they need to be from three equally spaced points, and one of the wires will get in the way of antenna reception.
To make some brackets to brace the mast, I use 1" X 36" X 1/8" thick aluminum L-angle

http://doc-00-8g-3dwarehouse.googleusercontent.com/3dwarehouse/secure/hhulr73hmmak89paul31eote4ben7ngk/a8770cdkj2jg0ih09jqm6goqck5sftqh/1322719200000/lt/*/b15752e4f2da070f54e1b6f41fdd78a?ts=1264392730000&ctyp=other

Home Depot has it. Cut it to length as needed to form a V-shape, with the point of the V mounted on the mast from the back side. Anchor the other two L-bracket ends to the facia boards or roof as needed. It will be rock solid after that.
It's a bit more work than using an eave mount, and requires at least one more screw into your roof, something I try to avoid.

There isn't any other small antenna that's going to work for your location on that small mast and mount. It seems stable because that tiny antenna has no wind load, and weighs nothing compared to the 4228.
If you ever got on a roof in the wind, even light breezes, and tried to keep a larger style antenna steady with one hand, it's a surprise. Long yagi styles, too.
The 4221 antenna is the same height as a 4228, actually two 4221's side by side. The 4221 would work better than what you have, but won't help with channels 9-11-13. The 4228 will, and is better than the 4221 for the other channels.

Of course, you could experiment with other small antennas and preamplifiers. One might work. Trying to figure out which one would do it is tough. Kind of like driving down the road in broad daylight, wearing very dark sunglasses, in a car with very dark tinted windows, and trying to figure out which ultra bright monster headlights you need to buy for the car to be able to see. It could work, but you're attacking the problem bass-ackwards.

Trying a new location is always a good idea. Be patient, and give the tuner time to scan in and lock on. You can't whip it around and have somebody watch like the old analogs days. Takes 10 to 20 seconds sometimes for a tuner to get just one channel locked into memory. Just moving it 8-10 inches in any direction to make a big change.
And stay safe on the roof.

Let us know what happens.

Dan

Budget_HT

12-01-11, 12:29 PM

Given that, the 11 am news on 4.2 should look almost the same as that on 4.1 but it is much less sharp (and much less sharp than most other 420p subchannels, even those with lower bitrates).

We have to consider that the bandwidth allocated to ch 4.2 is far less than for 4.1, so the smaller bandwidth will compromise picture quality.

It is entirely possible that KOMO has upgraded their in-studio facilities to support HD now. I originally heard about the unfortunate timing leading to SD digital instead of HD from a retired KOMO engineer who worked on their analog to digital in-studio transition.

rbico

12-01-11, 02:16 PM

rbico
You're welcome, always enjoy helping good people!

The guys you're talking to at Channelmaster must not be listening to what your trying to get across to them. Not uncommon. Not sure what he means by hanging it over the edge of the roof.....

The CM4220MHD I've seen has a very short mast

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=4220-MHD&d=Channel-Master-4220MHD-2-Bay-HDTV/UHF-TV-Antenna-With-Mount&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base

The picture you enclosed is of a 4228 mounted on a DS-3000 satellite mount, 39" high.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DS-3000&d=DS3000-39-Inch-JMount-for-DBS-Satellite-Dish--Outdoor-TV-Antenna-(DS3000)&c=Mounting Supplies&sku=

It has a similar foot, bit bigger, but much longer vertical portion. I have used these occasionally, for special installs. It could work, but you need to brace up the mast from the back side with some long brackets. If you leave it by itself, like in the picture, it will not stay in that position over time. The antenna will work the mast against the bolts at the bottom from windy days. It's only being held in place by squeezing the pipe with those bolts. Eventually it will get loose, no matter how hard you try to tighten it (been there, tried that, learned my lesson). You cannot use guy wires, as they need to be from three equally spaced points, and one of the wires will get in the way of antenna reception.
To make some brackets to brace the mast, I use 1" X 36" X 1/8" thick aluminum L-angle

http://doc-00-8g-3dwarehouse.googleusercontent.com/3dwarehouse/secure/hhulr73hmmak89paul31eote4ben7ngk/a8770cdkj2jg0ih09jqm6goqck5sftqh/1322719200000/lt/*/b15752e4f2da070f54e1b6f41fdd78a?ts=1264392730000&ctyp=other

Home Depot has it. Cut it to length as needed to form a V-shape, with the point of the V mounted on the mast from the back side. Anchor the other two L-bracket ends to the facia boards or roof as needed. It will be rock solid after that.
It's a bit more work than using an eave mount, and requires at least one more screw into your roof, something I try to avoid.

There isn't any other small antenna that's going to work for your location on that small mast and mount. It seems stable because that tiny antenna has no wind load, and weighs nothing compared to the 4228.
If you ever got on a roof in the wind, even light breezes, and tried to keep a larger style antenna steady with one hand, it's a surprise. Long yagi styles, too.
The 4221 antenna is the same height as a 4228, actually two 4221's side by side. The 4221 would work better than what you have, but won't help with channels 9-11-13. The 4228 will, and is better than the 4221 for the other channels.

Of course, you could experiment with other small antennas and preamplifiers. One might work. Trying to figure out which one would do it is tough. Kind of like driving down the road in broad daylight, wearing very dark sunglasses, in a car with very dark tinted windows, and trying to figure out which ultra bright monster headlights you need to buy for the car to be able to see. It could work, but you're attacking the problem bass-ackwards.

Trying a new location is always a good idea. Be patient, and give the tuner time to scan in and lock on. You can't whip it around and have somebody watch like the old analogs days. Takes 10 to 20 seconds sometimes for a tuner to get just one channel locked into memory. Just moving it 8-10 inches in any direction to make a big change.
And stay safe on the roof.

Let us know what happens.

Dan

Thanks again, Dan. I will just take your advice and keep poking around with the 4220 before I move up to the 4228. I have a friend that is a welder, so maybe he can make me a basic bracket based on your idea. Good analogy with the headlights, by the way.

DanKurts

12-01-11, 08:17 PM

Thanks again, Dan. I will just take your advice and keep poking around with the 4220 before I move up to the 4228. I have a friend that is a welder, so maybe he can make me a basic bracket based on your idea. Good analogy with the headlights, by the way.

rbico
Good plan. Next 5 or 6 days are going to be good weather for it.
Rare thing this time of year, take advantage !
Take care
Dan

KR7L

12-02-11, 10:07 AM

For those folks using the CM 4221 and having trouble receiving VHF channels 9, 11, and 13, here is a re-post of my earlier description of mods that can improve the reception of those channels.

Here are the instructions for modifying your Channel Master 4221HD UHf antenna to improve its performance on channels 9, 11, and 13. It is definitely a compromise but it works for me.

If you decide to modify your 4221, I would love to hear from you.

Richard

Myron

12-04-11, 12:10 AM

We have to consider that the bandwidth allocated to ch 4.2 is far less than for 4.1, so the smaller bandwidth will compromise picture quality.

It is entirely possible that KOMO has upgraded their in-studio facilities to support HD now. I originally heard about the unfortunate timing leading to SD digital instead of HD from a retired KOMO engineer who worked on their analog to digital in-studio transition.
KOMO quietly upgraded to HD news last month. 720p on 4.1 and down-converted for the 4.2 newscasts.

be236

12-04-11, 11:16 AM

KOMO quietly upgraded to HD news last month. 720p on 4.1 and down-converted for the 4.2 newscasts.

Yeah, I may have noticed their newscast is slightly "sharper" recently in the last few days or so...

Budget_HT

12-04-11, 08:21 PM

KOMO quietly upgraded to HD news last month. 720p on 4.1 and down-converted for the 4.2 newscasts.
Thanks for your reply. I will have to look carefully at KOMO 4 News. I suspect the "quietly" was because a lot of viewers did not notice the difference.

FuzzyOlives

12-08-11, 09:32 PM

DanKurts

12-09-11, 02:31 AM

Hey There!

Very happy to see a forum like this.

I live in LYNNWOOD, WA. near the intersection of 196th and 64th ave w.

I own a Panasonic 1080p Plasma HDTV Model TH-42PZ85U.

What would be the best type of antenna to get for my TV and location?

THANK YOU!!!

FuzzyOlives
Looks like you're in a pretty good spot. Key is whether you have any large trees or tall buildings to the south of you. If not, a Channelmaster 4228 or CM2020 would work well, a few feet above the roof.
Dan

rschmelzle

12-09-11, 12:42 PM

Hi all,

I have been following this thread for a while. I put up a Channel Master 4220MHD about 2 years ago and until recently I had good reception on all the local channels. Just in the last month channel 9 started to get flaky and now it has dropped off all together.

I did some troubleshooting, disconnected the splitter and ran the coax directly into the main upstairs tv. I set it up to re-tune all channels and still no channel 9.

This is my tv fool analysis (not posted due to forum rules) I am in Broadview 130th & 10th NW.

When I originally installed it I had a little trouble getting 11 & 13 both at the same time. I managed to find a happy medium and now have reception on both.

i know that the 4220 is not a VHF antenna and I am wondering if I could mount a second antenna like a cm-2020 and connect the 2 together in the attic.

thanks
Bob

Jim in Seattle

12-09-11, 10:29 PM

rschmelzme,

I wouldn't add a CM-2020 to your existing antenna system but it might be a good replacement antenna for you.

If you want to add a high-band VHF antenna to your current UHF antenna, I'd try an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 VHF Yagi, designed for channels 7-13. Be sure to use a UVSJ to combine them, not a 'standard' signal splitter.

Jim

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=Y5-7-13&d=AntennaCraft-Y5713-HighbandBroadband-VHF-HD-Yagi-TV-Antenna-for-Channels-713-(Y5713)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=716079000987

http://www.antennahacks.com/Hacks/MyY10-7-13V.htm

rschmelzle

12-10-11, 09:42 PM

Thanks Jim,

I spent yesterday afternoon adjusting the antenna on the roof. Finally got a signal on channel 9. It is still weak and I may take your suggestion on the Y5-7-13 VHF Yagi as a second antenna for VHF channels.
Bob

sea_aia

12-18-11, 03:18 PM

dorian55

12-18-11, 07:16 PM

I am new to this forum...but I live in Bellevue WA now and I have an indoor antenna, Terk TV5 amplified.
Without the amplifier I don't get much but I have been ota since 06...but as I said, I am a new person
here. Seatac should bring you many stations...when I lived in vashon I got 32...

Which antenna did you make? There is the diy coat hanger and wood one that is nice.

sea_aia

12-19-11, 12:31 PM

I made myself a coat hanger antena, not sure if it is good enough..:rolleyes:

Ken H

12-19-11, 03:38 PM

To all:

For specific help, go to TV Fool and post the results or a link here.

DanKurts

12-20-11, 02:10 AM

i live in seatac, close to 32nd ave s and s 152nd st intersection (98188). Thinking about ditch comcast and just use ota.. checked antennaweb, and tried with a hand made antenna indoor, picked up about 15 channels.. but not getting all possible ones (9.1, 13.1 for example). wondering why? should I get a stronger antenna ? I live in an appartment, would prefer a indoor antenna , to avoid hassle of installing it in the roof of my apartment building (landlord might not allow it)..

does any expert have any suggestion? appreciate your input.

thanks a lot!

:eek:

sea_aia
Sounds like part of the problem is your antenna doesn't do well with VHF, which is where ch's 9-11-13 are. If you have a north facing window moving the antenna near it will help. Ch13 in HD comes from the west, and is a little behind the hill. It's hard to find a position in an apartment wher eyou can get a clean shot at both directions. Ch13 in SD is available on ch22-2.
Indoor reception in an apartment can be tough. There's really no one magic indoor antenna that works everywhere all the time. It's just a matter of playing with location and antenna. Again, if you can get near a north facing window it will help. Most indoor styles have two parts: a loop, for UHF, and two rabbit ears for VHF. Lay the rabbit ears down flat, and set them about 18" apart. RatShack makes a cheapy you can return if it doesn't work.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077
Amplified one might not do well. If you try one, make sure it has an adjustable gain and try it at the lowest settings first.
Patience will win out. You may have to move the antenna for one channel and again for others.
Dan

seatacboy

12-23-11, 09:29 PM

DanKurts

12-25-11, 01:28 AM

Have any of you in the Seattle metro area used the Mohu Leaf indoor antenna?http://www.amazon.com/Paper-Thin-Leaf-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B004QK7HI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324697063&sr=8-1

With our hilly terrain, three VHF stations, and transmitters scattered in different directions, I wonder if the Mohu Leaf (which is claimed to deploy fairly innovative antenna design adapted from military applications) works decently in this area?

seatacboy

Are you still living east of the Airport near the Cambridge Apts?
(I have very fond memories of that place in my younger/crazy days!)

So, another new mousetrap. Like the idea of paper thin.
I get a giggle out of their reviews, "Crystal clear picture!".
duhhh.
Digital is crystal clear when reception works. There's no ghosting or snow like the old analog days.

If the design for this came from military applications, which is fine, I would be willing to bet that they're not telling you the other part of the story. The transmitting portion of that design (frequency, polarization, power, etc) is most likely different from what normal television here uses. This antenna might work wonders in a military function, but it comes down to simple physics here.
There are a variety of factors involved. The main thing is transmitters around here are using the FCC standards allowed. You need a certain amount signal to reach your antenna, in a "clean" fashion, for the tuner to lock on to. Unless the FCC comes up with some newer standard that compensates for all our terrain, what the stations are using now is it.
You need a fair amount of metal to pull the signal from the air.
Any antenna indoors is at a disadvantage.
If you use something less than a 1/4 wavelength, like any small version of an outdoor antenna, then it needs to make up for it with an amplifier, or be in a very strong reception area (Ballard, Capital Hill, Fremont, etc).
Then another problem comes into play, signals bouncing off everything inside.

As with any new style antenna, your mileage may vary. I've learned never to say never, but..... Having tried more than my fair share of antennas, in hundreds of installs, I admit to being skeptical.
If you try one, keep the receipt handy for return. If it does work wonders for you, let us know, along with the details of where you're located so we can figure out how it compares with others tried around there.

Last, to everyone, have a safe and Happy Holiday, and New Years, too!.

Dan

be236

12-25-11, 02:05 AM

I'm skeptical of these new antenna designs as well. I got a "leaf-like" antenna when I ordered a handheld DTV and it was pretty much junk. But then again, inside the house all indoor antennas for me didnt work well.

When I got it outside, it worked a little better, so your mileage may vary.

But it's funny on Amazon's site it got very good reviews, 4/5 stars?!

I'm gonna guess those good reviews came from people who got good reception (signal in the air) at their location already... meaning pretty much any indoor type antenna would get their channels they expected...

.. but yeah, if someone orders one and tries it out, let us know how it goes...

seatacboy

12-26-11, 04:21 PM

Dan: actually I was looking at the Mohu Leaf for my retired parents. They reside in a condo adjacent to the Rainier Golf & Country Club (Des Moines Memorial Drive and S. 118th Street. Their location has a strong signal on several local channels, and have been using a Philips Silver Sensor indoors with reasonably good results. The problem is they experience periodic loss of signal from aircraft flights.

My parents absolutely dislike the idea of paying Comcast to receive their local channels. I wondered if the Mohu Leaf actually performs any better than the Silver Sensor (which I bought for my folks as it seemed like the best candidate for indoor reception at their address).

FYI, if they rotate their Silver Sensor the right direction, they can pull in KVOS-DT from their address. Alas, they don't like repositioning the antenna.

As for my location on south McMicken Heights, while I do have a few antennas and a converter box that I fiddle around with, I subscribe to Comcast to receive local stations.

I have had reasonable results with the Silver Sensor and with a CM 4221 placed indoors. The deal-breaker with OTA reception from my location is that when people walk around north of my condo, it creates signal break-up and pixillation. Until such time as I move - or find a "miracle" antenna <lol>, I'll reluctantly pay Comcast to obtain TV reception in my ground-floor condo.

seatacboy

Are you still living east of the Airport near the Cambridge Apts?
(I have very fond memories of that place in my younger/crazy days!)

So, another new mousetrap. Like the idea of paper thin. I get a giggle out of their reviews, "Crystal clear picture!". duhhh. Digital is crystal clear when reception works. There's no ghosting or snow like the old analog days.

If the design for this came from military applications, which is fine, I would be willing to bet that they're not telling you the other part of the story. The transmitting portion of that design (frequency, polarization, power, etc) is most likely different from what normal television here uses. This antenna might work wonders in a military function, but it comes down to simple physics here.

There are a variety of factors involved. The main thing is transmitters around here are using the FCC standards allowed. You need a certain amount signal to reach your antenna, in a "clean" fashion, for the tuner to lock on to. Unless the FCC comes up with some newer standard that compensates for all our terrain, what the stations are using now is it.

You need a fair amount of metal to pull the signal from the air.

Any antenna indoors is at a disadvantage.

If you use something less than a 1/4 wavelength, like any small version of an outdoor antenna, then it needs to make up for it with an amplifier, or be in a very strong reception area (Ballard, Capital Hill, Fremont, etc).

Then another problem comes into play, signals bouncing off everything inside.

As with any new style antenna, your mileage may vary. I've learned never to say never, but..... Having tried more than my fair share of antennas, in hundreds of installs, I admit to being skeptical.

If you try one, keep the receipt handy for return. If it does work wonders for you, let us know, along with the details of where you're located so we can figure out how it compares with others tried around there.

be236

12-26-11, 11:20 PM

Wow, you can catch KVOS from Des Moines? that's incredible. Must live on high ground then.

DanKurts

12-27-11, 04:41 AM

Dan: actually I was looking at the Mohu Leaf for my retired parents. They reside in a condo adjacent to the Rainier Golf & Country Club (Des Moines Memorial Drive and S. 118th Street. Their location has a strong signal on several local channels, and have been using a Philips Silver Sensor indoors with reasonably good results. The problem is they experience periodic loss of signal from aircraft flights.

My parents absolutely dislike the idea of paying Comcast to receive their local channels. I wondered if the Mohu Leaf actually performs any better than the Silver Sensor (which I bought for my folks as it seemed like the best candidate for indoor reception at their address).

FYI, if they rotate their Silver Sensor the right direction, they can pull in KVOS-DT from their address. Alas, they don't like repositioning the antenna.

As for my location on south McMicken Heights, while I do have a few antennas and a converter box that I fiddle around with, I subscribe to Comcast to receive local stations.

I have had reasonable results with the Silver Sensor and with a CM 4221 placed indoors. The deal-breaker with OTA reception from my location is that when people walk around north of my condo, it creates signal break-up and pixillation. Until such time as I move - or find a "miracle" antenna <lol>, I'll reluctantly pay Comcast to obtain TV reception in my ground-floor condo.

seatacboy
That's a beautiful area around the golf course. Before the airport ruined the tranquility, it was one of the classier areas. Been in some older homes there that rival Broadmoor. The trolley used to run from Seattle along the Des Moines drive making it a great place to commute from.
Depending on where they are around the course, it can be tricky. You're right, signals are quite strong, except for ch13 vhf. Even with the best outdoor antennas, it was rare to be able to completely negate the effects from the incoming planes. You obviously have tried the most common methods, and done pretty well.
One thing that might work, if you can get them on board with a second remote, is to use another SS antenna, aimed for the second spot, and use the Ratshack A/B remote antenna switch.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643
You could label the A button for one set of channels and the B for the others. Little fubar, but could make it easier for them.
As another thought, I went through a similar thing with my folks. They just couldn't see spending the money for free TV. My other brothers and I just got them the basic $13/mo setup, with the bill going to us as a Christmas gift. They couldn't say no, and they get a few extra channels, too. Every time we visit the TV is on, so I know they're enjoying it. Last summer, we sprung for the internet hookup, which is cheaper with the basic cable. Only 1.5mbps, but fast enough for e-mail and Skype, which they love. Seeing all the grandkids just really makes their day.
Just an idea that might work if your budget allows. It was cheap for all they did for us!

Dan

seatacboy

12-27-11, 10:22 AM

Wow, you can catch KVOS from Des Moines? that's incredible. Must live on high ground then. Actually, it's northeast Burien near the Rainier Golf & Country Club. Des Moines Memorial Drive runs from Des Moines all the way into Seattle's South Park neighborhood (some 13 miles). Their location is fairly high up in altitude. Walking in their immediate neighborhood, you can visually see the main Seattle transmitters on Queen Anne, Capitol Hill and Tiger Mountain.

seatacboy

12-27-11, 10:29 AM

DanKurts

12-29-11, 04:03 AM

@Dan: The homes around the Rainier Golf & Country Club are indeed quite nice. Of all the indoor antennas we've tried, the (non-amplified) Silver Sensor was the most resistant to aviation interference from overhead airplanes. Still, DTV is an "all or nothing" proposition and sometimes they lose reception for a few moments during the best part of a favorite show. You are correct that KCPQ/13 is rather weak at their location, but the SS can receive it most of the time. I may try the remote antenna switch and donate another SS and see how it works out. (I've had lots of conversations with them about Comcast Limited Basic service.....)

seatacboy
I think it's great that you're going the extra mile for the folks. As long as they're happy with what they get, that's about all you can do. We all get stuck in our old ways!
They should be able to get ch13 on 22-2, though, right?
Just for giggles, try to get the antennas near a north facing window, too, if possible. The Sensors are small enough you might be able to hide one under an eave or out of sight outside. Just seal up the balun and connections. The extra distance in cable is no big deal. There's plenty of signal.
Tell them Happy New Years from us!
Dan

valvashon

12-30-11, 07:58 PM

Just read at nwbroadcasters.com that KSTW has shut down their Port Angeles analog translator on channel 62 as of today and have no plans to replace it with anything digital. Two days ago I was in Mukilteo with an SNG truck and decided to see if they were still on the air. They were, so apparently I've watched my last snowy, analog off-air TV ever. Anybody else know of any analog TV still being broadcast here in Washington state? I know there's some LP stations still on the air in Minneapolis...

Val

mike84

12-30-11, 10:45 PM

desmondo163

12-31-11, 12:52 AM

Have any of you in the Seattle metro area used the Mohu Leaf indoor antenna?

I just got this and posted my review:

This antenna lives up to the hype! Mine is hung up on the wall next to the window, and I get all but the elusive Fox channel in Seattle (by the way for those in the same boat, a lower-definition version of Fox is available on 22.2).

With the cheapo rabbit ears I had previously tried, I only got about half of what Antennaweb said I should get, and many channels were unwatchable because of dropouts.

With the Mohu antenna all the channels, UHF and VHF, come in with almost no occasional pixelation. I can't rave enough about this thing!

A tip: I assumed hanging it on the window would yield the best results, but once I attached my 3M Command adhesive strip, the weaker channels wouldn't come in. I heeded the advice to try other locations, so I thought I might as well try sticking it on the wall (which happens to be a corner next to the window). Presto: when high enough on the wall (level with the top of the window), all the channels appear as if I had cable!

DanKurts

12-31-11, 03:32 AM

I just got this and posted my review:

desmondo163
What are your nearest cross streets?
Dan

valvashon

12-31-11, 11:05 AM

Originally They submitted an application for low power digital on channel 11. The application was dismissed. They filed a new application to use channel 51. On August 21, 2011, The FCC issued a freeze on processing applications to use channel 51.

Hope you all have a happy New Year !!!

Mike

TV Query on the FCC website still shows that they have an application for channel 51 digital. So I guess they are still frozen but not dismissed.

Val

Jim in Seattle

01-02-12, 09:51 PM

be236

01-02-12, 10:51 PM

Is KING-5 so hard to get? I get it easily here in Mill Creek area.

valvashon

01-03-12, 09:51 PM

Val,

Thanks for the 'heads-up' and you are right, analog 62 is gone ... CARP! It was one of my favorite weekend channels. VHF 11 is viable here at 18+ feet above my roof. I prefer to use their dependible translator almost 40 miles away using an existing antenna I have in the air.

I wondered if they would follow thru on their CP and (apparently) they have (wisely?) chosen otherwise. Perhaps they want regular viewers to SCREAM at the FCC. Go for it, viewers!

Opinion: I think KING-5 (48) (also with a CP) hasn't raised/replaced their antenna is do to similar (political) reasons. Why spend the $$$$$$ and have the Government shut you down?

Jim

Why would the FCC shut down a broadcaster on channel 48? That's not close to the apparently disputed territory of channel 51. And I think that the FCC froze the application of the KSTW translator, not the other way around. They didn't follow through because it wasn't granted, not because they didn't want to is how I read it.

Val

rdiotte

01-04-12, 03:00 PM

Alright all you prognosticators out there...here's the skinny on our ch.62 analog translator shutdown for good...and there will be NO digital translator in our future.
we were caught by several "gotcha's"

we filed for ch.51 digital. waited forEVER for the CRTC (canadian FCC) to approve..since it's so close to the border. They still had not approved it to date. So, while we waited....

Vulcan Wireless...which has been granted ch.52 for wireless broadband (future allocation, not yet built) decided to OBJECT to our ch.51 translator as it might interfere with their operation on ch.52...even though we would have a newer "stringent mask filter" system on the output....

But...in the meantime...the FCC this past fall did 2 rulings. Freeze on all applications for ch.51 across the USA. All existing analog translators in the US have to either file for a new in core channel for digital or shut off by 12/31/2011.

our consultant had already gone thru trying to find a digital channel for us 3 years ago for the translator and since that time, several other digital translator channels have been approved and built in the area...so we had no channels available...again...we have to have a channel compatible with both US and Canadian allotments.

since the June 2009 conversion of our main signal on VHF 11 and our subsequent raise in ERP to 100Kw. (largest ERP on the left coast for a VHF)...we were now covering all CATV input requisites on the peninsula and the islands.
AND finally...the 2 Canadian viewers that call us when the translator is off the air don't count in the DMA...(actually we get canadian off air viewers that pickup our ch.11 VHF just fine)

so....we turned it off, for good.

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

be236

01-07-12, 01:31 AM

Say Ron,

Will KSTW be getting any sub channels, any time soon? Like KOMO, KING, etc already do?

Lisa Halpern

01-07-12, 06:32 PM

DanKurts

01-08-12, 01:15 AM

Hi,

we live in Seward Park, use an antenna connected to the TV, and while FOX has been finnicky for years, we always have been able to get it.

The day we hooked up our Samsung TV all the channels worked fine, but 2 days later we lost connection to channel 13 FOX and haven't been able to get it back. ( except it flickered on for a second today, but went away just as fast)

we've moved the antenna every which way, checked the connection to the Tivo - but nada.

help?

thanks!

Lisa

Lisa Halpern
Ch13 comes from the west, Bremerton area, and in most parts of your area Beacon Hill blocks the signal.
What's your nearest cross streets and I'll check it out further.
Also, Ch13 is available on ch22-2, in standard definition, which should come in okay in your area.
Dan

rdiotte

01-09-12, 11:52 AM

Say Ron,

Will KSTW be getting any sub channels, any time soon? Like KOMO, KING, etc already do?
no planned sub channels at this time for KSTW.
(single channel...more bits...higher quality)

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

quarque

01-10-12, 01:05 PM

no planned sub channels at this time for KSTW.
(single channel...more bits...higher quality)

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

Kudos! I hate sub-channels and like the fact that you are sticking with the higher quality.

rdvegas

01-13-12, 05:51 PM

no planned sub channels at this time for KSTW.
(single channel...more bits...higher quality)

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

RabbitEars.info data from November indicates that KSTW allocates about 12 megs to the primary channel, while about 7 megs are unused and allocated to null packets. Those 7 megs are enough to drive two sub-channels without affecting the quality of the main channel, or be added back to the primary channel.

be236

01-13-12, 06:29 PM

Nice! Plenty of unused bandwidth to carrier 2-subs!? Why not carry subs and get extra advertising revenue from them? Maybe have a "suggestion box" on your website about which channels to carry? :-)

Trip in VA

01-13-12, 06:41 PM

be236

01-13-12, 06:46 PM

rdvegas

01-14-12, 10:43 AM

Read carefully. 12 Mbps, and it's variable bitrate. Since I do not know the full range, I can only list the snapshot bitrate that I have. Most CBS O&O stations allow the variable bitrate range to top out at 17 or 18 Mbps.

- Trip

I knew you'd bring up that logic about variable bitrates.

Seattle/Tacoma/Everett viewers should hold out for an 11.2 sub-channel titled "Cartoon Special" as a tribute to Bill McLain and Warren Reed's Crazy Donkey. Think 24/7 Looney Tunes seperated by shots of model trains.

seatacboy

01-15-12, 07:11 PM

I have been evaluating the performance of the Mohu Leaf indoor antenna at two different locations - one being my parents' home in north Burien and the other being my condo in SeaTac.

My initial impressions are fairly positive. This antenna cannot miraculously bring reception to a dead spot, but it does seem to be fairly good at rejecting aviation-related interference and at maintaining a stable signal on strong stations. I don't fully understand why, but this seems to perform somewhat better than the Silver Sensor and several other indoor antennas I have used.

The Mohu Leaf is tuned for UHF reception. At my condo, I was in fact able to obtain very decent stable reception on KCTS RF9 and KSTW RF11, and with considerable moving around I got some reception on KCPQ RF 13, but it generally did better with UHF stations.

Like any indoor antenna, placement is crucial and moving it by a few inches can make a big difference.

After a couple more weeks of user experience, I'll share more thoughts on this unit. If anyone else has used a Mohu Leaf locally, I'd be interested as to your reception results.

rdn

01-19-12, 08:39 PM

Well, I"ve seen other stations using 1080i and sub-channels and don't see much of difference in picture quality... Even if there was a slight degredation in PQ, I'd take the trade-off to get two free sub-channels to watch. heh.

My 73-year-old eyes (with glaucoma) can't tell much difference either, but there isn't a lot of decent programming left to fill any new subchannels (for example, 5.2 after Universal Sports went away).

I wish there were some standardization among the various subchannels (e.g., aspect ratio and pillarboxing). My Vizio doesn't handle format changes very well (although if I use the AM21 OTA tuner with my Directv receiver I can adjust for that).

seatacboy

01-20-12, 10:10 AM

Quick tip of the hat to local stations KCPQ, KIRO, KING and KOMO for comprehensive coverage of the severe winter storm that has affected the Seattle area.

As usual, KWPX offered no storm-related coverage. Their only token gesture of "local content" is a low-buck public affairs program called "NW Focus" that was filmed a couple of years ago. Very lame compared to what other full-power stations are offering for their local communities.

As a side note, did any of you experience reception problems during the storm?

leszek1

01-28-12, 11:09 AM

Fixed my VHF issues by adding the $20 C2V kit to my DB4e and using the supplied hardware and existing holes:
http://leszek.smugmug.com/Electronics/Satellite/Satellilte/i-Zv3Lv5x/0/S/MG0692-S.jpg
http://leszek.smugmug.com/Electronics/Satellite/Satellilte/i-PCxjHrW/0/M/MG0694-M.jpg

My TV now reports 52 DTV channels (including subs) in Kirkland WA with a fair number of very tall trees around. Fox on ch.13 is now rock stable at 100% signal strengh.

be236

01-28-12, 12:19 PM

52 channels (with subs) in Kirkland? Wow.. I get about 30 channels max in Mill Creek. You're so lucky!

leszek1

01-28-12, 12:34 PM

To be fair, about 10 or so are totally blank with no content (33.100-33.400 and 46.2) and there are a lot of infomercials on other channels. But I do get 11 HD channels: 2xCBS,Fox,ABC,2xNBC,2xPBS,ION,CW,MyTv and some good action/retro SD channels: THIS,RTV,Antenna,HOT

levibluewa

01-28-12, 05:50 PM

and some good action/retro SD channels: THIS,RTV,Antenna,HOT

What is HOT? and what channel #?

leszek1

01-28-12, 07:01 PM

Channel 46.1
http://www.hottvchannel.com/

be236

01-29-12, 12:51 AM

I think channel 46.2 (Viet TV) went "dark." Not sure what happened... Anyone know?

Jim in Seattle

01-30-12, 07:56 PM

DanKurts

01-30-12, 09:36 PM

@ DanKurts,

You know my location and I am intrigued by the DB4e with the VHF stick Leszek1 shared above. (thanks!)

I have an old-style 4221 on one system that 'almost captures' KSTW and KCTS and if this antenna could replace my 'cut-to-9' Yagi, it would simplify my antenna switching here. Do you have any thoughts/experience with it? :confused: Thanks in advance,

Jim

Jim
Haven't seen this one, but have installed some of these. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4453051&SRCCODE=WEBGOOPA&cm_mmc_o=mH4CjC7BBTkwCjCV1-CjCE&gclid=CI63mpGn-a0CFWgaQgodii2itw
Similar in idea. It worked okay, better than I thought it would. About 60% to 80% of the gain of a CM4221 in UHF. Not great on VHF, more narrow in reception off axis for both VHF/UHF. Works great close in, like Ballard, if there's not many trees to deal with. I keep one in stock just for those special requirement jobs close in. Not sure how well it would do where you are, but I would use it over the one you are looking at. Has more VHF elements, and smaller in overall size.
Don't throw away your present setup, though!
Dan

SirChaos

02-01-12, 01:43 AM

Hey Everyone,
Looking for some assistance in picking a new antenna. I currently have a "lovely" Radio Shack, VU-190 XR that is falling apart and poles are breaking off.

Antenna:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103087

I not too happy with it.... It came with the house.

So, I'm looking to upgrade to something decent and with a terrific range. I have a Antenna Rotator as well.

I'm willing to spend on something good and amp (if needed).

Like I said, these items came with the house and I don't mind keeping them if these are the best options for me....or if there is something better out there.

My goal is to get Seattle HD and maybe Canada HD?

On a side note, can I use the existing antenna for a police scanner/FM Radio once I switch?

Thanks for your help everyone!

SirChaos

Station Map Attached.

DanKurts

02-02-12, 02:20 AM

SirChaos

02-02-12, 11:15 PM

136th and 51st in Marysville

DanKurts

02-04-12, 12:19 AM

136th and 51st in Marysville

SirChaos
You're in the shadow of the hill by Boeing, about 35 miles from Seattle.
About a mile and a half the hilltop is in your way. Not a good thing.
If you're going to put something up, get a big one and a preamp. Try the HBU55 by Antennacraft. RatShack carries them. Use a Channelmaster 7777 preamp. Point it roughly 195 degrees, just west of due south. If it doesn't pan out, you can return it. For FM, use a separate antenna, like the Antennacraft FM6. Point it basically just east of due south and see what happens. You shouldn't need any preamp. Run a separate cable for it. Don't try and mix it with the other antenna. Put the big antenna on the rotor, and the FM mounted elsewhere, at least 5ft away, on a fixed mount. Trying to put both on the same mast above the rotor will put a lot of load on it, and they can interfere with each other.
95% of FM comes from Tiger Mt, just east of Issaquah, and from a high elevation. Direction is not really that critical. Your ears will tell you if when it's right.
Let us know what happens.
Dan

leszek1

02-05-12, 04:10 PM

Rearanged my antenna. Now I'm picking up MeTV (12.1) and CoolTV (12.2) in addition to everything else. The antenna is pointed straight north. All the stations except physical 35 virtual 12.x are picked up by the rear of the antenna via the two lobes on the left and right on the gain graph:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=236315&d=1328479688http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=236316&d=1328479688

be236

02-09-12, 11:17 PM

Aim your antenna NW and you might pick up CHAN (RF 22) from Vancouver. Also, you should put your TV Fool report as "Pending Digital" only as it's easier to view. "Current" view is obsolete now.

leszek1

02-11-12, 02:25 PM

No luck picking up 22. I also noticed that I was getting dropouts on RF27 from Tacoma. So to balance things out I took my laptop along with Fusion5 USB tuner to the roof. I finally stroke a balance between RF35 (71 miles away - NW direction, front of the antenna) and RF27 (33 miles away - SW direction, rear of the antenna):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=236918&d=1328990305http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=236919&d=1328990305
The supplied signal checker is nice in that the "strength" is actually S/N ratio or quality and the number does not change with splitters or cable length. :)

To achieve the correct balance I had to lower the upper screen to expose the top most bowtie on the rear of the antenna. This lowered the forward gain slightly but elevated the rear gain allowing me to achieve the balance between the two:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=236920&d=1328990305

I also separated the VHF dipole to point it to a different direction towards my VHF stations and added a VHF Hi/Lo splitter (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ZHLSJ&d=Blonder-Tongue-Band-SeparatorCombiner-HLSJ-VHF-Band-HighLow-Antenna-SeparatorCombiner-(ZHLSJ)&c=Signal Splitters&sku=) to remove VHF Lo & FM frequencies from the signal fed to the pre-amp. (There are a lot of strong FM stations around here)

I now receive the following RF channels with no dropouts:

VHF: 8,9,11,13
UHF: 14,25,27,31,33,35,38,39,42,44,46,48,50,51

Others, such as RF19 are too low to either get a lock or have too many dropouts.
This gives me a total of 54 TV channels with 45 of them having content and 42 of them being unique.

Jim in Seattle

02-11-12, 02:50 PM

To achieve the correct balance I had to lower the upper screen to expose the top most bowtie on the rear of the antenna. This lowered the forward gain slightly but elevated the rear gain allowing me to achieve the balance between the two:

Clever. Very clever. :D

be236

02-11-12, 04:40 PM

Jim in Seattle

02-11-12, 05:33 PM

Jim
Haven't seen this one, but have installed some of these. http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4453051&SRCCODE=WEBGOOPA&cm_mmc_o=mH4CjC7BBTkwCjCV1-CjCE&gclid=CI63mpGn-a0CFWgaQgodii2itw
Similar in idea. It worked okay, better than I thought it would. About 60% to 80% of the gain of a CM4221 in UHF. Not great on VHF, more narrow in reception off axis for both VHF/UHF. Works great close in, like Ballard, if there's not many trees to deal with. I keep one in stock just for those special requirement jobs close in. Not sure how well it would do where you are, but I would use it over the one you are looking at. Has more VHF elements, and smaller in overall size.
Don't throw away your present setup, though!
Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the recommendations and I assure you, I won't throw away what currently works. KOMO has been breaking up here a bit so I raised my 4221 up 6" then 12" and finally determined it is best located 6" lower than where I originally had it (at least for today). Go figure.

When I tested an old-style DB-2 last summer on the same mast but 12 feet higher, it out performed the 4221 so I suspect your suggested antenna might be a winner here.

Jim

leszek1

02-11-12, 06:13 PM

That's pretty good.. What's your full Tvfool report? Your Location says Bellevue, but you say you're in Kirkland. Is RF 22 (CHAN) in your report?

Seems you get get all the local channels! That's cool.. so you're just missing that one Bellingham channel RF 24 (Shopping NBC channel)...

Actually the ShopNBC is RF19, logical 24. :) The signal is too low to get a lock most of the time. My TVFool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b860ce0ca3e20

s73v3

02-13-12, 06:09 PM

rdn

02-13-12, 06:52 PM

Does anyone have a update of the progress of putting up KCPQ 13 on 22 actual in Seattle? I and others I assume, that are either in the Gold Mountain shadow or wrong direction, do appreciate being able to see KCPQ content on 22.2 logical but the SD picture quality is starting to get old. It amazes me that KZJO sends mostly SD content on the 22.1 HD channel and transmits the Fox mostly HD content on the 22.2 SD channel. With the start of the NASCAR season I was hoping to watch it in HD.

IIRC, when they first put it up they ran 720p on both 22.1 and 22.2. In order to get enough bandwidth for 22.3 (Antenna TV), they cut 22.2 back to 480i. The downscaled picture quality looks a bit better to me than watching the 11 a.m. news on 4.2.

pastiche

02-13-12, 09:10 PM

Does anyone have a update of the progress of putting up KCPQ 13 on 22 actual in Seattle?

Two and a half years later, it's still just an application:

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=33894

Not sure why, but KBTC got a CP to run a translator on channel 16 from Capitol Hill in far less time.

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=62469

98133

02-13-12, 11:03 PM

DanKurts

02-13-12, 11:38 PM

I think this is the year I will finally get an antenna on the roof. I asked a while ago about my location (Densmore Ave N at N 203rd in Shoreline) and Dan said it was in a not good spot. Any recommendation on a particular antenna/amp/rotator and how high above the chimney I should look at going? Is this within the range of a do-it-yourself job or does it make sense to hire someone to do it right, since antenna selection/install seems as much art as science?

98133
Well, the trees to the south haven't gotten any smaller in the last 4+ years!
If you want to try, get this one from RatShack, and a long 50ft cable
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3740646
Carefully unfold it, set it on your roof pointed basically 5 or 10 degrees west of due south, run the cable through the window by your TV and see what you get. Going up high isn't going to help much. The signal, if there were no trees in that direction for 2+ miles, would still be a hundred feet over your head. You may be able to find something skirting under the tree canopy. Never hurts to try. If it doesn't work, you can return it.
Dan

leszek1

02-14-12, 09:59 AM

98133

02-15-12, 12:24 AM

leszek1

02-15-12, 09:49 AM

You can never have too much antenna (except if you live very, very near a station) but you can always have too little. Go with the 55 unless cost is a factor. Remember that an antenna is the only thing in the entire receiving chain to actually improve signal quality. Everything else either tries to degrade it (long cable runs and splitters) or tries to preserve it (amps)

In my area (Kirkland) the only pre-amp I can use is the Winegard HDP-269. All others I tried (from the CM7777 to AD CPA19) would overload and I would loose channels and quality. I would strongly recommend that one as it is enough for about 150ft of RG6 + a 2 way splitter or about 50ft of RG6 + a 4 way splitter and that's conservative.

DanKurts

02-16-12, 01:40 AM

Dan & leszek1, thanks for the help. I looked on TV Fool and saw that I am in the purple zone for most of the stations. The HBU 33 is not listed for blue or purple on the manufacturer's website, but the larger HBU 44 and 55 are (if using an amplifier). Do you think the HBU 33 will do the trick or will it be extra insurance to go with the 44 or 55? These may be new antennas, as I did not see any user reviews (vice lots for the HBU 33), so maybe unproven in real world performance? Also, should I go with an amplifier (and if so, which one?). Again, many thanks for the help.

98133
TVFool doesn't take in to account hills, terrain, trees and some other important factors. It does give you an idea of what direction the various channels are. Not that good though for antenna selection around here.

Reviews on antennas by non professionals are not really valid. There are too many variables that aren't known about their location, the stations they're trying to receive, or their TV. They mean well, and they probably did perform for them as stated, but someone else can get a completely different result through no fault of the same antenna.

Either HBU 44 or 55 is okay, but the 55 will be a bit more directional, which may help trying to find the best path through the trees. Even with a preamplifier, you will not overload at your location. I prefer the CM7777 because of it's very low noise figure, and it's ability to pull in many weak stations along with some stronger ones, and not add more overall noise that will confuse the tuner. It's also very reliable, and has more gain and headroom than others I've tried. If I were going to test a tough location like yours, these items are what I would try.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

98133

02-16-12, 02:33 PM

Jim in Seattle

02-16-12, 10:38 PM

I did my usual (monthly drill) rescan tonight and I think KUNS is now transmitting from the KING tower on QA Hill.

It maps as 50.3 on my Sony Bravia BUT it maps as 51.1 on my CM-7000 Converter box.

Can anyone else confirm this change?

Jim

DanKurts

02-17-12, 12:05 AM

Dan,

You had originally suggested the HBU-33...was that because that was the only HBU at RatShack? They don't have the 44 or 55. I am willing to go all-in and just get the 55 from Solid Signal if that is the way to go. BTW, Solid Signal has an over 2 week wait for a CM7777 (not sure what is up with the CM supply chain). Any other reputable sources to order a CM7777? Many thanks!!!

98133
I couldn't find a link for the HBU44 or 55. I mentioned thr Shack because they will take the antenna back if it doesn't work. Not sure what Solid's return policy is. For the preamp, did you try Fry's? You need to go there and check it out. They don't seem to be to good at checking inventory over the phone. If they have the Wingard, then get that. If you start to get some channels, then return it and find a CM7777. If not, you're not out the money.
And yes, Channelmaster is goofy about their production. Shame because they make some good products, go figure. As for where else to buy one, Amazon has a link to a company with the preamp.
Dan

Lee Wood

02-17-12, 11:33 AM

KUNS has not moved. It is still on West Tiger. 50.3 is the physical channel that is remapped to 51.1 as the virtual channel.

levibluewa

02-17-12, 04:53 PM

on the defective Sony set is showing at 0.0 & 79.115. Also, Center Ice freebie at 68.1-.10 and 95.13 & .14.

Jim in Seattle

02-17-12, 05:54 PM

KUNS has not moved. It is still on West Tiger. 50.3 is the physical channel that is remapped to 51.1 as the virtual channel.

Lee,

I asked because I have been receiving it on my Bravia mapped to 51.1 but upon doing a rescan, it was added as 50.3, as if it was a new transmitter being received.

It has never been received here on my CM-4221 and it now comes in when pointed at the KING tower "on" 50.3 as well as on 51.1 when I switch to my cut-to-48 Yagi aimed at Tiger (prior to the other night the only way to receive it).

My CM-7000 converter has never 'seen' 51.1 before, but the rescan found it and correctly mapped it: this was on my 4221 aimed at the KING tower.

Strange!

Jim

hitbyambulance

02-18-12, 01:32 AM

Not sure why, but KBTC got a CP to run a translator on channel 16 from Capitol Hill in far less time.

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=62469

i've been interested in the progress of this and wrote KBTC the other day. got a reply back that the KBTC Capitol Hill translator station is slated to be finished late summer or fall, if all goes to plan.

rdn

02-20-12, 12:31 PM

Justkelly

02-21-12, 08:48 AM

Lee,

My CM-7000 converter has never 'seen' 51.1 before, but the rescan found it and correctly mapped it: this was on my 4221 aimed at the KING tower.

Strange!

Jim

Somehow I doubt KUNS will be broadcasting from the KING tower. The KOMO tower one of these days? Yes, since KUNS is owned by Fisher-KOMO. ;)

be236

02-26-12, 10:58 AM

It looks like channels 31 - 51 are going to be reassigned :eek: :confused:

http://www.dailywireless.org/2012/02/17/fcc-gets-unlicensed-white-space-autonomy/.

http://usjvc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/issue4_img6.png
Yikes, if all those channels from RF 31 and up get re-assigned to lower UHF channels, I hope they don't conflict with the BC channel assignments (eg, RF 20, 22, 26 ).

rdn

02-26-12, 08:56 PM

Yikes, if all those channels from RF 31 and up get re-assigned to lower UHF channels, I hope they don't conflict with the BC channel assignments (eg, RF 20, 22, 26 ).

I'm pretty sure there is already coordination going on, including antenna patterns. There are bound to be a lot of adjacent channels used eventually, but hopefully the selectivity of modern TV receivers is up to the challenge.

be236

02-26-12, 11:59 PM

I'm pretty sure there is already coordination going on, including antenna patterns. There are bound to be a lot of adjacent channels used eventually, but hopefully the selectivity of modern TV receivers is up to the challenge.

I wish that was true... Look at RF 33.. it's used by CityTV ... and by ION.

Well, I know that ION was using RF 33 first, so it was CRTC's role to not have allowed CityTV to use RF 33... oh well, I guess they didnt care.

leszek1

02-27-12, 10:58 AM

I wish that was true... Look at RF 33.. it's used by CityTV ... and by ION.

Well, I know that ION was using RF 33 first, so it was CRTC's role to not have allowed CityTV to use RF 33... oh well, I guess they didnt care.

The licensed coverage regions do not overlap. In each region the primary signal is strong enough not to be affected by the other. And even outside the coverage region you can use almost any antenna with good front-to-back ratio to tune one vs. the other as they are in opposite directions for most people. To put things in perspective, a quad bow-tie antenna with 18dB front-to-back ratio will make one signal 64 times stronger than the other even if they were equal to begin with. So in summary I don't think CRTC did anything wrong.

rdn

02-27-12, 01:18 PM

There are several other channels which are in the same boat: http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/tvpage.htm. If channels 31 & up go away, it will be interesting to see how the FCC plans to fit everyone into the remaining bandwidth. I haven't heard anything about CRTC making a similar move.

rdvegas

02-27-12, 05:17 PM

A sad state of affairs for KVOS-12 Bellingham and all viewers in the Vancouver/Victoria/Bellingham area.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/02/27/2408022/kvos-tv-sale-layoffs-signal-hard.html

Trip in VA

02-27-12, 07:28 PM

As I recall, KVOS is being bought by Michael Dell, who I would assume is acting as a spectrum speculator.

- Trip

pastiche

03-01-12, 10:38 PM

Two and a half years later, it's still just an application:

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=33894

I noticed this afternoon that the FCC finally, last Friday, authorized KCPQ's translator on Ch. 22 from Capitol Hill.

be236

03-03-12, 03:16 PM

A sad state of affairs for KVOS-12 Bellingham and all viewers in the Vancouver/Victoria/Bellingham area.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/02/27/2408022/kvos-tv-sale-layoffs-signal-hard.html
KVOS went downhill when it trimmed local programming in favour of national shows (eg, MeTV).

be236

03-03-12, 03:16 PM

I noticed this afternoon that the FCC finally, last Friday, authorized KCPQ's translator on Ch. 22 from Capitol Hill.
Oh no, I was hoping it would not go thru... this'll make it that much harder to get CHAN RF 22.

be236

03-03-12, 03:17 PM

The licensed coverage regions do not overlap. In each region the primary signal is strong enough not to be affected by the other. And even outside the coverage region you can use almost any antenna with good front-to-back ratio to tune one vs. the other as they are in opposite directions for most people. To put things in perspective, a quad bow-tie antenna with 18dB front-to-back ratio will make one signal 64 times stronger than the other even if they were equal to begin with. So in summary I don't think CRTC did anything wrong.
Really.. okay, I'll keep that in mind.

leszek1

03-03-12, 06:09 PM

Oh no, I was hoping it would not go thru... this'll make it that much harder to get CHAN RF 22.

Is CHAN reliable for you in Everett?

be236

03-03-12, 06:22 PM

Is CHAN reliable for you in Everett?
Yeah, CHAN on RF22 (Global BC), from about 140km away... no, I can't get it reliably, I get it for a few hours every once in a while when the weather conditions is right (eg, very cold and usually at night of course)... Tvfool shows my NM for it at about -8 dB. I'm near the Mill Creek area, and it's not a good spot for LOS to Mt Seymour... Using Tvfool, there are pockets in central Everett (near Boeing) and Stanwood area where you can get good LOS to there... boy, I wished I lived in those areas. heh.

levibluewa

03-03-12, 08:53 PM

KVOS went downhill when it trimmed local programming in favour of national shows (eg, MeTV).

I think opting for MEtv was the most promising thing KVOS ever did since it went on the air...at least now they offer reruns other than I Love Lucy :)

be236

03-03-12, 09:01 PM

I think opting for MEtv was the most promising thing KVOS ever did since it went on the air...at least now they offer reruns other than I Love Lucy :)
Yeah, but you can get similar old TV shows on Antenna TV (22.3). heh.

levibluewa

03-03-12, 10:04 PM

be236

03-03-12, 11:14 PM

KVOS never did any local programming of note...just reruns, and the reruns offered by MEtv is an improvemnet. I suppose they could have put MEtv on 12.2 and kept 12.1 for their "original" programming...reruns of I Love Lucy :)

Yes, they did... several years back (5+?) they had local shows, like news report in the morning, weather reports and special programming (similar to Evening Magazine on KING 5 now).

Also they had focused on BC area, then it all/mainly turned back to US local programming.

It was a shame... I enjoyed their local programs when they were in analog KVOS-12 era. heh.

Justkelly

03-05-12, 01:08 PM

Back prior to 2002, KVOS had a rather large audience in Vancouver and North of the Border. Between losing their long-standing cable channel then being prohibited from selling ads across the Border, KVOS became relegated to just being a Bellingham station again. That small of a TV market simply can't support local news and all the expense that goes with it.

I expect the new owner Michael Dell, will be the first to give up the KVOS-DT channel assignment when spectrum auctions finally hit.

be236

03-05-12, 02:28 PM

Yeah, I used to see ads for BC shops (local stores), then only saw Wa shop ads... alas...

rdvegas

03-06-12, 09:06 AM

Yeah, I used to see ads for BC shops (local stores), then only saw Wa shop ads... alas...

This may bring back some memories for a few early KVOS viewers. "Men dress up for (insert your holiday here) at Broadway Credit Clothier." or perhaps, "Tonight's Labatts's Million Dollar Movie presents..." Then the CRTC cracked down on placing Canadian ads on US television, and a prime source of revenue for KVOS dried up.

be236

03-06-12, 10:33 AM

Why did CRTC do that? To discourage BC folks to NOT watch US station but to watch BC stations instead?

I remember when they had "The Bay" commercials .. and Budget Car Rental commercials from BC shops. heh...

Lee Wood

03-06-12, 05:27 PM

Why did CRTC do that? To discourage BC folks to NOT watch US station but to watch BC stations instead?
What happened is that, first, the Canadian government eliminated the business tax right off for Canadian businesses advertising in US media. Then, second, they permitted Canadian cable systems to cover up commercials from US TV stations with their own commercials. This pretty much killed any revenue US TV stations could get from Canada.

Also, no one has mentioned that at one time KVOS was a CBS network affiliate (in addition to KIRO). The loss of CBS probably hurt them badly as well.

be236

03-06-12, 06:08 PM

Well, that's ashame.. as it stands KVOS broadcasts MeTV and CoolTV... Not sure how much advertising revenue they get from it...

I guess Bellingham just doesnt have enough population/viewers to support local news/programming anymore... oh well...

rdvegas

03-07-12, 10:04 AM

What happened is that, first, the Canadian government eliminated the business tax right off for Canadian businesses advertising in US media. Then, second, they permitted Canadian cable systems to cover up commercials from US TV stations with their own commercials. This pretty much killed any revenue US TV stations could get from Canada.

Also, no one has mentioned that at one time KVOS was a CBS network affiliate (in addition to KIRO). The loss of CBS probably hurt them badly as well.

At one time the Seattle market had three CBS affiliates. KTNT-11 Tacoma was the CBS affiliate when KIRO-7 finally came to the airwaves in the late 50's. They fought over who would keep CBS, and for a while both stations shared the network. Up north at the border, KVOS-12 Bellingham was providing most of the CBS schedule to tv hungary Canadian viewers and those US viewers in Whatcom, Island, San Juan, and Skagit counties. But as CBUT-2 Vancouver started picking up more and more CBS programming for their slate the need for KVOS to continue with some CBS programming seemed less needed.

I well remember KVOS having an afternoon movie that would break just before the conclusion to air the CBS 15 minute Evening News. When the news concluded, then the movie would continue.

Justkelly

03-07-12, 04:02 PM

kickass69

03-08-12, 04:10 AM

rdvegas

03-08-12, 09:08 AM

Looks like KVOS is finished sadly. OTA Broadcasting of Virginia took the keys to KVOS-TV Bellingham on Tuesday, putting 22 employees out of work, with an annual wage loss of $800,000 to the local economy. It may be the end of OTA broadcasting for the once powerhouse station as new owners say they may be interested in selling the on-air frequency at the FCC's next bandwidth auction.

Bellingham Says Goodbye To KVOS

http://kgmi.com/Bellingham-Says-Goodbye-To-KVOS/12479283

There was a time, and not that long ago, that buying a station to flip, or not run in the public interest, was against FCC regs. The Van/Vic/Bell market went through agony just a short time back when CHEK-6 Victoria was within hours of being silenced, then brought back from the brink of extinction. KVOS deserves much more than a money hungry owner who states they are only in it out for a quick auction sale. Senator Patty Murry should express her concerns to the FCC and force the owner to keep KVOS alive and providing essential services to Northwest Washington (and Southern British Columbia). If the owner can not agree to do that, then they should be stripped of their license and those of their Seattle and San Franicsco area properties.

rdn

03-21-12, 10:14 AM

Trip in VA

03-21-12, 06:17 PM

I noticed that KWPX (33) has a bunch of new subchannels, but they are not watchable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1374019

- Trip

Myron

03-23-12, 07:22 PM

I noticed that KWPX (33) has a bunch of new subchannels, but they are not watchable. Here are the results of a scan with EyeTV:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21077754/kwpx.jpg

Is this some kind of a pay-TV service? It seems like a lot of data for the bandwidth. I'm not seeing anything on the normal subchannels either.

Edit: The -1, -2, -3 subchannels are now working. If I try to view one of the others, the screen says "encrypted".
Airbox is a subscription service that ION is trying out in "selected" markets. The system uses MPEG-4 compression so the bit rate necessary for good presentation is less than the ATSC standard of MPEG-2.

TheSnappySneezer

03-30-12, 05:03 PM

Hey, I just moved to Ballard or shoreline, whatever this is. with a 65 dollar HD antenna that picked up everything in Portland and nothing here. Any advice please? I'm near the Thriftway (overpriced) and Office Depot like 7 minutes walking distance. Also, ot but why aren't there any Popeyes Fried Chicken here or anywhere in Seattle for that matter? I am regretting this relocation. (hates Starbucks and Subways being all over) Is there any place to get good and spicy fried chicken round these parts?
\

Bruceko

03-30-12, 06:41 PM

Snappy sneezer
Sounds like you are out north in the Shoreline lake forest park area? around 205th?
For good Fried chicken try Ezells ,not very close by or Heaven Sent Chicken in north Lake City. Heaven Sent is Ezell Stephens new name since he left Ezells.
Ezell's was the chicken Opra was freaking over a few years back
They have regular and spicy. It is subtle spice.
You will find Popeyes north and south of Seattle but it it is a long drive

TheSnappySneezer

03-30-12, 09:31 PM

Thanks for the chicken info. I will have to journey to these places. I live on 15th NE by a Ballinger Way, I'm brand new here haven't ventured out much yet, unpacking and all. I'm just East of I 5, near it, I think it is I 5. I don't have a car. I am in the NE. I prefer a strong spice but I will take what I can get.

Bruceko

03-31-12, 12:02 AM

Sneezer
you are in a bad spot for your antenna. You have that big hill that 15th goes up between you and the tv station antenna's.

TheSnappySneezer

04-02-12, 02:57 PM

Do you think I could build a contraption to pull in the signal?
I have a lot of copper wire, several feet of thick copper wire. I'm considering doing something.

numbnu7s

04-12-12, 09:44 PM

leszek1

04-13-12, 09:28 AM

Sounds like your setup is the issue. You loose Kiro when atmospheric conditions make the signal weaker in your spot.

DanKurts

04-16-12, 05:05 PM

First off my my set up:

UHF Antenna -> HDHomerun -> EyeTV

Last night I noticed that Kiro would not come in. I checked it in EyeTV and also in the HDHomeRun config guy utility (physical channel 39). I did some basic stuff like power cycle the HDHomerun unit, rescan and check on multiple computers but nothing worked.

Today it's back to normal like nothing happened.

I'm wondering if anyone else noticed this (this isn't the first time this has happened to me). Or if there is something screwy in my setup. If an OTA signal goes dark do the stations send out a notice to a website or something where I could check status?

Thanks for any help in advance.

numbnu7s
Normally if a TV station goes down, which is rare with all their backup systems, the forums get a lot inquiries. Also, people start calling the station, and will report that here as well. If it happens next time, either call them or post a note here. Some one will usually respond with an answer to that easy check.
Most likely cause could be a number of things. Since only one of your stations dropped, it gets down to reception issues, not usually cabling or connections. If you were right on the very edge of locking in on ch7, or were getting great signal, you could still be seeing good indications on your tuners srength indicator. You just wouldn't know. If you drop just below that threshold, it can simply go black. Not like the old days of analog where you get fuzzy or ghosting pictures to indicate weak signal. It can freeze and stutter, as well when that happens, but you didn't mention that. Try reaiming the antenna, ever so slightly, and see what happens.
If you're still having problems, post cross streets where you are so we can check it out, and what antenna you are using.
Dan

richardhqw

04-17-12, 12:45 AM

On about the same timeline you mentioned, I started receiving a new signal with blank screens using virtual channels 7-1 and 7-2 (in additional to the main KIRO signal).

I'm now getting blank screens on 51-1 and 51-2 (in addition to KUNS on 51-1).

Maybe there is something up with the Channel 51 translator up on Tiger.

be236

04-20-12, 01:55 AM

I made an M8 antenna (similar in design to the 'coat-hanger' ones), and now I usually can get almost reliable (80% uptime) signal on RF channels 22 and 20 (CHAN and OMNI) from BC. Truely amazing at about 140km away.

As for Popeye's, there's a location in Renton, that's not too far from Shoreline.

mike734

04-30-12, 11:26 PM

rdn

05-02-12, 03:48 PM

mike734

05-02-12, 06:24 PM

I doubt that the 4228 would help. You really need an antenna that covers VHF-HI in addition to UHF, such as the Winegard HD-4400, or separate antennas. When channel 9 went back to VHF I retired my PR-4400 and put my old Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna back up.

Are you sure about the HD-4400? Amazon reviews indicate that it is not very good for VHF and indeed, it is small and does not brag to be for High VHF.

DanKurts

05-03-12, 01:34 AM

Ive read several years worth of postings and have learned a lot but I'm still looking for some clarification.

I live in Woodinville on the cul de sac of NE 199 St. My current antenna is the cm 4221 mounted on the chimney with the top of the antennae below the top of the chimney and facing Queen Anne. I receive all the networks and Fox adequately but not Ch 9. Most the other stations rate about 60-80 % but ch 9.1 is not found or is found and shows about 1%. Would the 4228 be enough to tune in PBS? There are trees located about 100 yards away but between me and the towers.

mike734
Ch9 is now VHF, a much lower frequency from its previous UHF ch41. Happened after the digital changeover a few years back. The 4221 wasn't designed for VHF. If the other channels are coming in pretty good, chances are ch9 would come in.
I would suggest the 4228. It's wasn't designed for VHF, either. However, what makes it work, somewhat, is that there are two cross bars that connect the two halves (two 4221 antennas side by side). They are close to the same wavelength measurement for ch9, 11 and 13. I've been quite surprised by how well they work. Not as good as a 5 element VHF hi-band yagi, but not too bad either. The 4228 is the same height as the 4221, and about twice as wide. It mounts on the same spots on a mast. You may have to reaim just a little for ch9, but should be fairly close to the same direction.

The HD-4400 Winegard won't work. It has the same basic design as the 4221.

The other solution is a separate antenna, like the aforementioned 5 element yagi. Couple the two with an UHF/VHF combiner. You will probably have to use a longer mast. Make sure to keep them at least 2ft apart. Be sure to double check your mountings, as the windload will be a bit more.
Dan

mike734

05-03-12, 11:38 AM

rdn

05-03-12, 08:04 PM

The HD-4400 Winegard won't work. It has the same basic design as the 4221.

One of the ads I saw claimed it worked on VHF-HI but looking at a picture I agree with you. The CM-2020 is fairly small and might be a good choice.

DanKurts

05-04-12, 12:03 AM

Excellent Dan. I am reluctant to use the larger 4228 because it upsets the neighbor but what the hell. I do have another chimney on the other end of the house but it is slightly lower and more blocked by trees. Also the cable run would be about 50 ft longer. I guess I will try it however.

One more thing. Several reviews talk about how the 4228 is not the same quality as it used to be. They make it sound like it is not a good choice any more. Any thoughts on that?

mike734

I would try the original location first. Moving lower could make a huge difference. The longer run would absorb a little signal, but the potential for problems would be far greater because of the different location.
As for your neighbor, remind him of the FCC law that says you can put up what pretty much what you want for TV reception, even if there are restrictions, CC&R's, to the contrary.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

Besides, the 4228 isn't that much larger. Only a few feet wider, same height. Looks like the same thing, but twice as wide.

From what I've seen, the newer version of the 4228 is just as good as the old one, if not better. For the DIY crowd, it should actually be better. Almost all the problem installations I worked on had the balun wires all twisted. It causes cancellation of the signals. It wasn't always the only problem, but would definitely loose signal. The new one has the balun built in. No wires to cross. And I can personally attest to loving the back screen. No more cuts from handling those razor sharp edges on the old style !

Further, user reviews on antennas need to be taken with a large bag of salt. What works for one person, may not at the house right next door, for a wide variety of reasons. You throw in variables like hills, trees, location, direction from the tower (TV signals are not always radiated in a perfect 360 degrees), and more, and it makes comparisons and reviews, even in the same distance from the tower, not realistic.
Last, they don't have a field strength meter/scope to really see what's going on. They're really shooting in the dark. Some work, some don't. Why they don't is usually speculation, and blame can be attributed to a particular antenna, when it was just the location, or the wrong type for the job.

As Bob mentioned, the CM2020 would also be a good call, but you mentioned it was mounted on the side of the chimney. You would need to get a longer mast and go above the chimney to mount this antenna.

And, just for my curiosity, what are the cross streets at your house?

Let us know what happens.

Dan

mike734

05-04-12, 12:16 AM

Cross streets are 184th PL NE and NE 199th St

Fry's doesn't have much stock these days so I'll get it from Amazon I guess.

DanKurts

05-05-12, 12:37 AM

Cross streets are 184th PL NE and NE 199th St

Fry's doesn't have much stock these days so I'll get it from Amazon I guess.

mike734
Wowser!
You must have a great tuner. That's a lousy location. Not impossible, but you're 80ft below a hill to the SW, not counting the added height of trees, and a mile further, over 200ft below that hill!
I would definitely use the same location for the 4228.
Be careful with the old antenna. You may want to reinstall it and add a separate VHF somewhere else.
Dan

mike734

05-05-12, 01:08 AM

Huh 200 feet! We're at 405 feet here and I don't see that hill. Are you sure about my location? Around here the NE makes a huge difference whether it is before or after the street.

mike734

05-07-12, 11:10 AM

Dan, could you please post a photo of the topographical map you are using to see this hill?

DanKurts

05-08-12, 02:38 AM

Dan, could you please post a photo of the topographical map you are using to see this hill?

Mike734
This is going to be long, but hang in there. If you get confused, it's probably my bad explanation. Easy to show this to someone live, not easy to explain. Kind of like trying to describe the taste of chocolate!

I don't have a photo, but this is a program I've used for years, Topo by DeLorme. It's not high tech CGI, but does give a fair look at the terrain relative to the path. I've enclosed two Word docs with a pasted screen shot each.

The first doc is in several parts. The left half is a 3D view, with the start point in red, your house. The orange stripe is the signal path to QA Hill, roughly SW. (I didn't try to show the whole thing, as once you're beyond two miles, it's line of sight, nothing else in the way.) You're looking South. The right half is the map view, which always has North at the top, so the path starts at the same red dot, and the orange stripe is now going down and to the left. The 3D view can oriented in any direction and at varying heights. I chose this view because it highlighted the hill near you more. The red cone in the left half is pointing to the top of the hill, near the intersection of NE 197th pl and 182nd ave NE. (I zoomed in to see the actual cross point, hard to see in this screen shot)
The actual elevation in feet above sea level may vary a bit, but I've found it to usually be pretty consistent. My start point for your house shows you at 370ft, the hill top at 463ft. If you have data that shows you at 405, that could be right. Check you source for the height at the intersection mentioned, and I would bet it's about an 80ft difference, at about a 1/4 mile away.
If you look at the very bottom of the first screen shot, it shows what the path looks like if you were to slice it, like a knife in cake, and view the path from the side. The left side says queen anne and zero miles. The right side says 15.76 miles, your house. The blue horizontal line indicates the top of the hill, 1/4 mile SW of you, and the vertical blue line shows the distance from QA Hill. It's not ultra accurate, but pretty close. Just to the right of this graph you see some numbers showing the elevation and linear distance (as the crow flies) from the start point, QA hill. It says 457 ft elevation and 15.45 miles. Again, this part of the program is less accurate than the upper halves. It changes rapidly with small cursor changes, so it's readout is less accurate.
All the up and down area in between the start and end point's are the high and low points of land along the signal path. It's hard to tell from this view that you're below the signal line. (Remember, TV signals do not bend over hills. Some engery does get dispersed, kind of like the glow of car headlights coming at you beyond a hill. You're working in the glow) If I were able to show you, while moving the cursor, you would see the elevation changing as I went along the path.
The second doc is from higher up, or zoomed out. In the left half you see the red cone is over the second hill top from you, at the intersection of NE 172nd pl and 159th Ave NE. The lower graph shows that hill top at 13.62 miles from start, or about 2 miles from you, and about 568 ft, roughly 200ft higher than your house, using my reference point of 370ft. (again, your source would probably show that intersection at 605ft) Thing is, even at two miles, it's still in the way.
Now the start point for signal from the tower is about 1000ft, so the signal travels to you at a tiny downward angle, not dead level like the blue line shows in the lower graph. That's a good thing. The left edge of the graph, above the queen anne title, shows the height of the blue line as 568ft. Imagine that start point being 1000ft. As the the blue line crosses the hill top at 13.62 miles away, it would probably be a bit lower than 200ft above your head.
However, this program doesn't show the trees or buildings. Having done many jobs around the area, I know there's a lot of very tall fir trees, most averaging 50ft. That's a lot of wood in the way, on two hill tops. That pretty much cancels out the advantage gained in height from the downward angle of signal.

Obviously it's not bothering you that much from your description of channels received. Experience tells me that you are obviously in a "sweet spot". With that little 4221, and everything else considered, it should be worse.
So, that's why I recomended NOT trying other locations.
Further, your tuner is doing a great job with what it's getting.

Now, the obvious question:
What tuner are you using?

If I totally lost you, sorry. Call me and maybe I can do a better job, live!

Dan
206-794-3993