Originally posted by quarque
Thanks a lot! Does he work for himself or someone else? Does he have an official business name?

Believe he is self employed. Company is "Kurts Inc" - I also have a Federal Way number: 425-874-7443....

Did a great job for me - Highly recommended.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Larry: it never came through (I checked my personal e-mail and my PM here), can you please re-send or just post here? Thanks!
Wayne - here is what I found in my Inbox when I got home:
-----------------------------------------------
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed.
-------------------------------------------------

Delayed by whom and why? Hmmmmm.....

Anyway, here is what I sent you:
-----------------------------------------------
Your location is marginal due to a ridge just to the north of the house. The elevation at the house is about 500 feet and the ridge is 560 feet. You would need to get your antenna about 30 feet off the ground to get line-of-sight. If it is a 2-story house and you put a mast on the roof you may have a good chance. Then there are the trees. Many people have found them to be less of a problem than they look. The Channel Master 4228 would be one good choice for an antenna. Its design presents a large area of metal perpendicular to the incoming signals. This seems to help where signals may be partially impeded by trees. If you don't want to hassle with buying and returning a bunch of equipment you can pay a pro antenna installer about $100 to evaluate your site. Make sure they put something up about 30 feet and use a spectrum analyzer or digital receiver to verify signal levels. There is a guy named "Dan the antenna man" in this area who seems to know what he is doing. I have yet to find out how you contact him. I may post this request on AVS since several people have inquired about evaluations.

Good luck!
-------------------------------------------------------
Larry

Originally posted by pdampier
Believe he is self employed. Company is "Kurts Inc" - I also have a Federal Way number: 425-874-7443....

Did a great job for me - Highly recommended.
Thanks "p".
P.S. - I love the Dampier website! Loads fast, simple and easy to use. :D

Thanks Larry. I thought it was very questionable if I'd be able to get OTA HDTV reception from the house. The house is a one story with daylight basement which is common for the area.

I'm currently using a CM 4248 down here in So. Cal. where I have a substantial hill close by blocking line of sight to the towers and it works well despite intense multipath. I tried many other antenna/preamp combos but this one worked by far the best for this home. I haven't tried the CM 4228 but certainly would give it a shot up there based on your advice.

The home in Puyallup has CC&Rs and I very carefully reviewed them for any statement regarding roof antennas but there's nothing in there which I'm happy about.

Regarding the "delayed" message, that is truly bizarre, sounds like Yahoo is to blame... I still haven't received your e-mail but will certainly let you know when/if it shows up (ha ha).

Thanks for your help!
Wayne

Wayne - there are a number of people reporting the successful use of the new Winegard SquareShooter antenna where direct LOS is not possible. The antenna may end up pointed "away" from the tower if there is a strong reflection off some nearby building. You might consider trying this if your 4248 does not work. The hardware forum has a long thread running on this antenna. Several experts swear it will not work any better than a RS dbl-bowtie but somehow it does! The design it uses is a little exotic for UHF but is based on solid principles. Keep us informed on your success/failure.

Larry

Hi,
I have a 16 footer UHF/VHF/FM antenna and would like to trade for a smaller UHF antenna like channel master 4, 8 bays or 4248 antenna. My wife doesn't like to put on our roof and there is no way I can get into the artic do to it size. The antenna is used and come complete with cable, tripod, rotor and archerotor control. My dad spend big $$$$ years ago and did want to put it back after he installed the new roof. Everything work about 3 years ago, but trade AS IS. One thing I want to mention is the one part of the antenna was broke in july/july 2001 do to the windstorm. The reason the antenna broke is because I left it stand up (freely on it tripod without tighten down) and the wind knocked it off over night. Anyone who live around here interested, give me your email and I would be gladly to send you the photo.


Yes! The antenna is 16'. This is the largest antenna that I have seen to date. I live just north of SeaTac airport and about 1 mile from SouthCenter Mall.

Anyone around the Bel-Red/NE 30th/MS Campus area care to comment on the size of antenna required for OTA HD reception? I'm hoping for indoor RS bowtie or something similar and not a roof mount...

Thanks!

Originally posted by pdampier
Anyone around the Bel-Red/NE 30th/MS Campus area care to comment on the size of antenna required for OTA HD reception? I'm hoping for indoor RS bowtie or something similar and not a roof mount...

Thanks!
Most anything would work for Seattle stations. KCPQ is now only available from Bremerton (30 miles). That still does not require anything large. I have used an RS dbl-bowtie and it should be able to go 30 miles. The bigger problem will be multipath, depending on location and receiver. The newer generation stuff is much better than the first generation ones for rejecting multipath (LG 3xxx and Zenith 420 get high marks). Most of the time people use "overkill" antennas (4228) just to get the directional capability, because gain is not an issue until you hit 40 miles. Fotunately we don't have any of those flea-power stations like other parts of the country (10kW or less!). A dbl-bowtie is not nearly as directional as a 4-bay or 8-bay bowtie. For indoors I would try the Silver Sensor or the new Winegard SquareShooter. Attic mount would be best if the roof is not metal.

Originally posted by speedy777
Hi,
I have a 16 footer UHF/VHF/FM antenna and would like to trade for a smaller UHF antenna ...

Yikes! 16 feet should be able to pull in the Spirit or Opportunity rovers! :D

LOL quarque!

(everyone knows you'll need an amp too!);)

Hey! at antennaweb I just noticed the statement "airports within 2 miles of your location" and when I click that modifier my reception posibilities are pushed to much more extreme ratings.
Is this because of the strong radio signals being used at the airport?

quarque:
The sad part that I couldn't get to the artic. There is ~ 24" opening in one room to the artic but just too small to get the antenna in.

Originally posted by weebling1

Hey! at antennaweb I just noticed the statement "airports within 2 miles of your location" and when I click that modifier my reception posibilities are pushed to much more extreme ratings.
Is this because of the strong radio signals being used at the airport?
Well some of the communication bands used by aircraft are near the UHF TV band, so that might cause interference just like strong analog UHF can cause problems for digital receivers. Some people install notch filters in extreme cases to chop out the offending analog channel.

But I think they are more likely referring to the ghosting you get on analog UHF from planes flying by. It's not clear to me exactly how antennaweb deals with digital reception in their data, as opposed to analog. You actually need "less" antenna for digital. The new Winegard SquareShooter has only 4db gain but works well up to 60 miles for some people.

Originally posted by speedy777
quarque:
The sad part that I couldn't get to the artic. There is ~ 24" opening in one room to the artic but just too small to get the antenna in.
When I was a poor struggling student many many years ago, my roommate and I stuck our antenna flat against the ceiling and covered it with some printed cloth material. Of course that was in the days of hippie crash pads where almost anything was acceptable for room decor! Far out man...

Of course that was in the days of hippie crash pads where almost anything was acceptable for room decor!

I bet your the guy who lived in the apartments off Lake City Way NE on NE 140th who had the mini christmas tree permanantly attached upsidedown to the ceiling. It was quite visible from the road, as if you didn't know!
Did that help your reception?;)

Fry's update...

I went to Fry's in Renton today to pick up the CM 4228. i went to the right like everyone said and found the antenna section. Plenty of yagi's and tripods along with mounting hardware, but no 4228's. Finally found a helpful saleguy who found 7 of them in the computer. Turns out they were kept in the center of the store by the furniture. Due to the size of the box, they are storing them there.

Originally posted by weebling1
I bet your the guy who lived in the apartments off Lake City Way NE on NE 140th who had the mini christmas tree permanantly attached upsidedown to the ceiling. It was quite visible from the road, as if you didn't know!
Did that help your reception?;)
Ha! Sorry I missed that one. My hippie days were in Madison, WI.

Originally posted by bpdp379
Fry's update...

I went to Fry's in Renton today to pick up the CM 4228. i went to the right like everyone said and found the antenna section. Plenty of yagi's and tripods along with mounting hardware, but no 4228's. Finally found a helpful saleguy who found 7 of them in the computer. Turns out they were kept in the center of the store by the furniture. Due to the size of the box, they are storing them there.

Sorry, this isn't news... If you read previous posts in this thread or the FAQ I put together, you would have saved some time :)

-Lance

Okay, I didn't read far enough! Shame on me....

Does anyone know if I need to apply magnetic correction to the azimuth given by antennaweb? Are they expressed in true, magnetic, or grid north? And if so, what is declination here?

I'm pretty sure they're in magnetic... no declination adjustment required. But iff you want to know your exact declination, you can look up your town at www.topozone.com (http://www.topozone.com/) . The current declination is shown on the map. (pretty cool site, will show you your lat-long or convert to UTM etc)

-Mike

Yes, antennaweb.org maps give magnetic directions for use with a compass and they are adjusted for magnetic declination of the location. Not sure how accurate that is but probably within 1 degree. I went to the topozone.com site and found that Seattle's *current* magnetic declination is 18 degrees. I found it interesting that my childhood home which used to have a +3 declination now has a -2 declination. They are not kidding about the magnetic pole moving around!

Originally posted by quarque
They are not kidding about the magnetic pole moving around!
Yeah, I was looking at some of my 7.5' USGS quads that were last updated in the 1980's, and the declinations are wayyyyy off from today's current figures. Nice way to get lost in the woods when your compass declination setting is off by 5 degrees or more, huh?

Antenna Help

I was wondering if you could help me identifying what Antenna type I could use and if I would be able to get OTA at this location

My nearest x section is

228th Avenue NE and 19th Drive
in Sammamish, WA 98074

I do appreciate your help

Hmmm,

just got the 4228 up and pointed in the general direction of Seattle..

I am getting ABC and CBS in the 70's but nothing from NBC, aren't they on the same tower? Any ideas? I will get a compass tomorrow and fine tune it but if I get one shouldn't I get all three?

Well after looking at the excellent Puget Sound DTV FAQ it looks like Redmond is not really in the N/S orientation of the NBC pattern. Anyone think I need an amp? Or am I just SOL?

Originally posted by msoomro
Antenna Help

I was wondering if you could help me identifying what Antenna type I could use and if I would be able to get OTA at this location

My nearest x section is

228th Avenue NE and 19th Drive
in Sammamish, WA 98074

I do appreciate your help
check your PM for my reply

Originally posted by bpdp379
Hmmm,

just got the 4228 up and pointed in the general direction of Seattle..

I am getting ABC and CBS in the 70's but nothing from NBC, aren't they on the same tower? Any ideas? I will get a compass tomorrow and fine tune it but if I get one shouldn't I get all three?

Well after looking at the excellent Puget Sound DTV FAQ it looks like Redmond is not really in the N/S orientation of the NBC pattern. Anyone think I need an amp? Or am I just SOL?

This is a common problem, not just with NBC. While all 3 major networks are clustered on QA hill, there are oddities that occur around the PS area. The most common fix is to change the antenna location (up,down, left, right). It may take several attempts to find the sweet spot on/near your house. Reflections are most likely the cause. Changing location by even a foot or two can sometimes do it. I would not waste money on a preamp until you have tried a dozen locations. What about PBS, WB, UPN, FOX? Do you get those stations?

OK, I just got it in! After about 20 trips up and down the ladder, I am getting it at 23%. I need a compass I guess to really make sure I have the azimuth locked in.

I am getting everything now. KONG and NBC are the weakest, they are in the 20's and everything else is in the 70's to 80's.

bpdp379

Did you get anything at all with the DirecTV OTA Winegard antenna? I tried mine Saturday and it gives about 60 - 70 % of the signal strength I have with my CM 4248. Even in Bellevue where I am I have to tweak the 4248 to get King at 93%. Komo and Kiro are at least that strong on the Samsung. I use a rotator but once it is set I really dont need it as all stations in the Seattle area are rock solid without moving the antenna.

I want to give the 4228 a try in the spring.


Good luck

Originally posted by wezar
bpdp379

Did you get anything at all with the DirecTV OTA Winegard antenna? I tried mine Saturday and it gives about 60 - 70 % of the signal strength I have with my CM 4248. Even in Bellevue where I am I have to tweak the 4248 to get King at 93%. Komo and Kiro are at least that strong on the Samsung. I use a rotator but once it is set I really dont need it as all stations in the Seattle area are rock solid without moving the antenna.
Good luck

He installed an amplified "wing" antenna that only got ABC, the bellevue shopping network, and WB.

Hi, Guys:
Newbie here. Just got HDTV and Dish 811 installed. Working fine w/ HDnet etc. Would like to get local HD. Called Dish Network and the sale rep. told me there is no HD content in their local digital package. Is this correct? I thought the 811 have OTA capability. I am a complete NOOB on this. If I want to get local HD, do I have to get a HD receiver other than the 811? An antenna? What else? I am located at 21752 34th PL W, Brier, 98036. What would the reception be like?
Thanks in advance

Originally posted by howcome
Hi, Guys:
Newbie here. Just got HDTV and Dish 811 installed. Working fine w/ HDnet etc. Would like to get local HD. Called Dish Network and the sale rep. told me there is no HD content in their local digital package. Is this correct? I thought the 811 have OTA capability. I am a complete NOOB on this. If I want to get local HD, do I have to get a HD receiver other than the 811? An antenna? What else? I am located at 21752 34th PL W, Brier, 98036. What would the reception be like?
Thanks in advance
I think they were referring to receiving locals via the satellite. The 811 is set up to receive locals OTA using an external antenna. All of the locals in this area are UHF. Fortunately, you are in a good location for OTA - no hills in the way. The favorite antenna around AVS is the Channel Master 4228. It is available at Fry's in Renton and at Pringle's in Everett. To get ALL the major networks you may need a rotor, but try it first without. Consulting antennaweb.org, there is about a 50 degree spread between Capitol Hill and Bremerton from your location. This may be a bit much for the 4228 to pull in without rotating. Pointing it SW might get all stations, maybe not. If you do't want to spend $60 on an antenna you could try the Silver Sensor.

Thanks, Quarque.
4228 it is then. I have an unobstructed view SW all the way to the Olympic mountains.:-)
Any recommedation for a antenna installer?

[i]
Any recommedation for a antenna installer? [/B]

Yourself...;) It's really not that hard to do. You can save a couple of hundred $$.

quote:[i]
Any recommedation for a antenna installer? [/B]



Yourself... It's really not that hard to do. You can save a couple of hundred $$.
____________________________________________________________ ___
I set up my 6.1 HT (Onkyo SKS-HT510 + Harman Kardon AVR230) myself, and wife is still complaining about the stray speaker wires, etc. With this in mind, do you still recommend self installation? Cable from Antenna to STB and what not?

Just come from antennaweb.org. So I have the following info:
CBS & ABC: 178
NBC: 177
PBS, WB, & UPN: 167
Fox: 216 (Damn it!)

So I plan to point my 4228 at 172.3.
Just one question:
WHAT THE HELL DOES 172.3 MEAN?

Originally posted by howcome
Just come from antennaweb.org. So I have the following info:
CBS & ABC: 178
NBC: 177
PBS, WB, & UPN: 167
Fox: 216 (Damn it!)

So I plan to point my 4228 at 172.3.
Just one question:
WHAT THE HELL DOES 172.3 MEAN?
Actually, you want to split the difference between 167 and 216 for your first attempt (=191). "191" is degrees from magnetic north going clockwise around the dial. 180 = south, 225 = SW, 270 = west. So about 10 degrees west of due south on your compass. See what you can get at 191 degrees, then try 216 and 167 for what's missing. If you can get all stations at *some* location but not all at *one* location, you need a rotor (or give up on Fox?). If you can't get all stations you need to move your antenna around (up,down,left,right) to find the sweet spot for your house.

Fox used to have a duplicate signal on Capitol Hill on the WB tower. They had to drop this "cross carriage" on Jan. 1 due to legal entanglements - but they are working on bringing it back. If it did you wouldn't need the rotor.

Thanks, Quarque.
"Fox:216 (Damn it)" means that Fox can kiss my a... Antenna's right earlope.

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks, Quarque.
"Fox:216 (Damn it)" means that Fox can kiss my a... Antenna's right earlope.
You don't know how close to the truth that statement is. The 4228 does have "lobes" off to each side of the main front lobe and the "right" side is the one that would pick up Fox when aimed at 191 degrees. So it may be "kissing the right lobe" after all! :D :D :D

I live just north of Seatac airport which aproximately 1-2miles (150th ave & International 99) and have no problem pickup HDTV. It seems airport noise may not be an issues. The antenna installed in the gargage artic which about 10' above ground. Those who use silver sensor may want to give the channel master 8-bay model# 4228 a try. I was able to pickup twice the channels and no constant get up and adjust the antenna like the silver sensor. I'm unable to pickup channel 13.1, 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 unless reposition the antenna. The main problem is 13 locate west and 4, 5, and 7 stations are north direction. I am consider purchase another antenna and mount it 90deg offset from current antenna. Does anyone have any success mounting the combination this way? By the way, the Zenith HDV420 only require 40% stable strength signal to pickup HDTV.

I know for a fact that sound waves can screw w/ the signal. My next door neighbor has a Jeep w/ a big ass engine in it. When it idles (glug, glug, glug, glug...), I actually get intermittency in my signal at each "glug" of the engine.

Sounds like I may be lucky to live under the landing/glide pattern where engine noise is minimal, and with takoff at a right angle to the signal direction I haven't noticed any interference yet. Maybe I will when there's more daylight programming.
ACCURSED UHF SIGNALS! ;)

Originally posted by felthove
I know for a fact that sound waves can screw w/ the signal. My next door neighbor has a Jeep w/ a big ass engine in it. When it idles (glug, glug, glug, glug...), I actually get intermittency in my signal at each "glug" of the engine.
Sorry, sound waves cannot affect electromagnetic waves. Believe me, I'm an engineer with a degree in Physics. Most likely what is happening is the "big ass" engine has poor quality plug wires that are radiating all sorts of high-frequency crap on each firing (glug). If you were to turn on a radio and find a dead spot on the band you would hear a static blast on every glug. This noise is picked up by the HD receiver as random garbage mixed in with the HD signal. This confuses the receiver and causes dropouts etc. There is a similar effect from strong radio stations if they are close by. Some people have to install notch filters to keep them from trashing the HD. Tell your neighbor to put some new low-radiation wires on on his big ass (engine). :D

weebling1 - I wouldn't fret. See my previous post...

Originally posted by speedy777
I live just north of Seatac airport which aproximately 1-2miles (150th ave & International 99) and have no problem pickup HDTV. It seems airport noise may not be an issues. The antenna installed in the gargage artic which about 10' above ground. Those who use silver sensor may want to give the channel master 8-bay model# 4228 a try. I was able to pickup twice the channels and no constant get up and adjust the antenna like the silver sensor. I'm unable to pickup channel 13.1, 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 unless reposition the antenna. The main problem is 13 locate west and 4, 5, and 7 stations are north direction. I am consider purchase another antenna and mount it 90deg offset from current antenna. Does anyone have any success mounting the combination this way? By the way, the Zenith HDV420 only require 40% stable strength signal to pickup HDTV.
Combining antennas has been done by many on AVS, although I've never tried it myself. There are several combiners available. There can be problems when doing this because if both antennas pick up the same signal and they get combined "out of phase", you end up with less signal. In fact it is very likely they will be out of phase to some degree. The cure is to filter each antenna so only the desired stations come through from each one. Fortunately for you having them 90 degrees apart makes it less likely to get this crosstalk problem since few antennas pick up much 90 degrees off-axis. So you might get lucky and not need any filters. Search AVS for "jointenna" and "combiner". The Join-Tenna from Channel Master is usually used to combine UHF and VHF which have a substantial difference in frequencies. I'm not sure about separating individual UHF channels. I would try a simple combiner first.

You can combine the 2 or more antenna together. Here is the link. http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html
I post this so the information can be pass on.

Originally posted by quarque
Combining antennas has been done by many on AVS, although I've never tried it myself. There are several combiners available. There can be problems when doing this because if both antennas pick up the same signal and they get combined "out of phase", you end up with less signal. In fact it is very likely they will be out of phase to some degree. The cure is to filter each antenna so only the desired stations come through from each one. Fortunately for you having them 90 degrees apart makes it less likely to get this crosstalk problem since few antennas pick up much 90 degrees off-axis. So you might get lucky and not need any filters. Search AVS for "jointenna" and "combiner". The Join-Tenna from Channel Master is usually used to combine UHF and VHF which have a substantial difference in frequencies. I'm not sure about separating individual UHF channels. I would try a simple combiner first.

quarque:
Thank you for your help and inputs. I purchased another 4228 and see it would work for me. The result is very dissapointing. It wouldn't matter which direction I point the 2nd antenna, the signal of the previous good channel become weak and not watchable. Anyway, I end up use only 1 antenna and move it to the roof artic that give me 10' higher than previous location.
I am able to pickup all channel now:
4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 20 (weak 33%-35%), 28, 33, 44, 51

By the way, lean the antenna backback little bit does improve 5-30% strength. I wasn't able to get channel 13 above 35% until I lean the antenna backward about 5deg.

Originally posted by quarque
Combining antennas has been done by many on AVS, although I've never tried it myself. There are several combiners available. There can be problems when doing this because if both antennas pick up the same signal and they get combined "out of phase", you end up with less signal. In fact it is very likely they will be out of phase to some degree. The cure is to filter each antenna so only the desired stations come through from each one. Fortunately for you having them 90 degrees apart makes it less likely to get this crosstalk problem since few antennas pick up much 90 degrees off-axis. So you might get lucky and not need any filters. Search AVS for "jointenna" and "combiner". The Join-Tenna from Channel Master is usually used to combine UHF and VHF which have a substantial difference in frequencies. I'm not sure about separating individual UHF channels. I would try a simple combiner first.

quarque:
Thank you for your help and inputs. I purchased another 4228 and see it would work for me. The result is very dissapointing. It wouldn't matter which direction I point the 2nd antenna, the signal of the previous good channel become weak and not watchable. Anyway, I end up use only 1 antenna and move it to the roof artic that give me 10' higher than previous location.
I am able to pickup all channels now:
4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 20 (weak 33%-35%), 28, 33, 44, 51

By the way, lean the antenna backback little bit does improve 5-30% strength. I wasn't able to get channel 13 above 35% until I lean the antenna backward about 5deg.

Originally posted by speedy777
quarque:
Thank you for your help and inputs. I purchased another 4228 and see it would work for me. The result is very dissapointing. It wouldn't matter which direction I point the 2nd antenna, the signal of the previous good channel become weak and not watchable. Anyway, I end up use only 1 antenna and move it to the roof artic that give me 10' higher than previous location.
I am able to pickup all channels now:
4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 20 (weak 33%-35%), 22, 28, 33, 44, 51

By the way, lean the antenna backback little bit does improve 5-30% strength. I wasn't able to get channel 13 above 35% until I lean the antenna backward about 5deg.
Whooooaaa there speedy, back off on that submit button a little! :D

I was afraid the combination was not going to be easy. Sounds like your new location did the trick. And leaning the antenna back is what is recommended if you are less than 40 miles out because the transmitter is about 800 feet higher than you are.

You can use the spare 4228 to thatch your lawn!

Went to Fry's this Sat. They are out of 4228 then. Looked at some Terk stuff but decided to hold off. Got the Silver sensor, picked up only 1 HD (Channel 5). So, is your spare 4228 for Sale, Speedy777?

howcome:
I pickup the last one on Friday 10AM. If you want, I would be glad to sale you the same price that I paid for (total $54.39). It will come the as reflector screen come apart. I have to disassemble so I can installed in the artic. It need to take apart because will not fit in my car trunk anyway. I has the box but not include because of it size. The reflector is very simple to reassemble. If you want to save money, I can also trade you the silver sensor with my 16' UHF, VHF, FM antenna (estimate 80miles+ UHF, 120mile+ VHF). It just too large to get to the artic.

Originally posted by bpdp379
OK, I just got it in! After about 20 trips up and down the ladder, I am getting it at 23%. I need a compass I guess to really make sure I have the azimuth locked in.

I am getting everything now. KONG and NBC are the weakest, they are in the 20's and everything else is in the 70's to 80's.

Just an update and some tips for other new people like me...

I took advantage of the beautiful weather this morning. I ran a dedicated line for OTA from the antenna to the STB. Now I have all channels in th 90's except NBC which is at 69%!

The D*TV installer had the OTA run like this:
4' run from the antenna to the bundle of 4 sat lines. Joined line there with a barrel connection. Run to the crawl space where it was fed to the ONQ panel. There he di-plexed it to a Sat feed that went to STB where it was undi-plexed.

So I think between taking out the multiple connections along with eliminating the di-plex really helped.

Basic stuff, but really showed me how much it can help to look at the simple things first!

Speedy777:
Check your private message. I'm interested in both offers.
howcome

Originally posted by speedy777
I live just north of Seatac airport which aproximately 1-2miles (150th ave & International 99) and have no problem pickup HDTV. It seems airport noise may not be an issues. The antenna installed in the gargage artic which about 10' above ground. Those who use silver sensor may want to give the channel master 8-bay model# 4228 a try. I was able to pickup twice the channels and no constant get up and adjust the antenna like the silver sensor. I'm unable to pickup channel 13.1, 4.1, 5.1, and 7.1 unless reposition the antenna. The main problem is 13 locate west and 4, 5, and 7 stations are north direction. I am consider purchase another antenna and mount it 90deg offset from current antenna. Does anyone have any success mounting the combination this way? By the way, the Zenith HDV420 only require 40% stable strength signal to pickup HDTV.

I live on the other side of I-5 from you, and I am able to get an adequate signal for the digital versions of Komo, King, Kiro and KCPQ (and other minor ones) but not KSTW (UPN) consistently. I have an attic system with a larger antenna pointed toward 4, 5, & 7 and a smaller one pointed toward 13. The smaller one is one of those things Ch 13 used to advertise and it comes with a connector that I believe has some type of a filter in it. I suspect I might due better on all the channels if I went to radio shack and bought another connector to connect the two together. Oh, also there is a splitter up there, so half the signal is going off to other parts of the house (it's our old cable out antenna and it gets an okay signal on the analog channels, but not that great).

I installed a 4228 that I got from SolidSignal last week. I put it on a 5' mast on my roof (a total of about 15' above the ground). I pointed it to try and get the best signal I could on most channels. Problem is, KOMO is dropping out most (90%) of the time.

Here are some other details:
~100' coax run between antenna and receiver.
-Protected "Green belt" of tall trees immediately behind my house and directly in the way of the DTV towers in Seattle.
-My Lat = 47.8; Lon = 122.3
-Distance to DTV towers is ~17miles to the south.
-OTA receiver is a new LG LST-3100A
-According to antennaweb.org, all the stations are between 167-175 degrees to the south. I was expecting to be able to get all the channels without needing a rotator.

I just bought a 7775 amplifier and a 10foot mast. I'm hoping that the added height and powered amp will allow me to get all channels with a good signal.

Does anyone have any other advice for my situation?
Thanks!

Originally posted by subspace
I installed a 4228 that I got from SolidSignal last week. I put it on a 5' mast on my roof (a total of about 15' above the ground). I pointed it to try and get the best signal I could on most channels. Problem is, KOMO is dropping out most (90%) of the time.

Here are some other details:
~100' coax run between antenna and receiver.
-Protected "Green belt" of tall trees immediately behind my house and directly in the way of the DTV towers in Seattle.
-My Lat = 47.8; Lon = 122.3
-Distance to DTV towers is ~17miles to the south.
-OTA receiver is a new LG LST-3100A
-According to antennaweb.org, all the stations are between 167-175 degrees to the south. I was expecting to be able to get all the channels without needing a rotator.

I just bought a 7775 amplifier and a 10foot mast. I'm hoping that the added height and powered amp will allow me to get all channels with a good signal.

Does anyone have any other advice for my situation?
Thanks!
It is true that all the QA and CH towers are within the 8 degree window you mention and easily covered by the 4228 beam width. Ch 13 however, is now only available from Bremerton, so you would need a rotor for that. As far as getting reliable reception, there are a few basics: mount antenna as high as practical, try several locations east-west as well as different heights. Finding the sweet spot for your house may take a lot of trial and error. The preamp will help with signal loss due to 100' of coax. If the trees are too dense you may be SOL.

Originally posted by quarque
It is true that all the QA and CH towers are within the 8 degree window you mention and easily covered by the 4228 beam width. Ch 13 however, is now only available from Bremerton, so you would need a rotor for that. As far as getting reliable reception, there are a few basics: mount antenna as high as practical, try several locations east-west as well as different heights. Finding the sweet spot for your house may take a lot of trial and error. The preamp will help with signal loss due to 100' of coax. If the trees are too dense you may be SOL.

Hi Larry,
I have an older 15-2160 UHF antenna from RadioShack that I'm not currently using. If I can point that towards Bremerton for Ch. 13, is there an easy way to combine the two antenna's signal into one for my recevier?

Yes there are a number of products for combining antennas. It can be a little tricky because you may get interference (both antennas feeding same signal but out of phase with each other). Phasing is mainly controlled by antenna spacing and lead length to the combiner. There are a number of filter products that can help with that. Should be fairly easy since there is only one channel of interest on one of the antennas.

Originally posted by howcome
Speedy777:
Check your private message. I'm interested in both offers.
howcome

howcome:
How do I check private message?

Originally posted by Karyk
I live on the other side of I-5 from you, and I am able to get an adequate signal for the digital versions of Komo, King, Kiro and KCPQ (and other minor ones) but not KSTW (UPN) consistently. I have an attic system with a larger antenna pointed toward 4, 5, & 7 and a smaller one pointed toward 13. The smaller one is one of those things Ch 13 used to advertise and it comes with a connector that I believe has some type of a filter in it. I suspect I might due better on all the channels if I went to radio shack and bought another connector to connect the two together. Oh, also there is a splitter up there, so half the signal is going off to other parts of the house (it's our old cable out antenna and it gets an okay signal on the analog channels, but not that great).

Karyk:
I loose channel 20 & 44 after re-route the cable. My guest is the antenna has been moved but I don't really care about the channels. If you need the coordinate, I would be gladly to pass it on to you by Wednesday. I am intend to run a few more experiment in the future. The antenna I have is just to large and little space in the artic make it more difficult.

Coordinate:
325°
Lean antenna back 5 1/2"

Originally posted by hdnewbie
Hi,
I'm in North Brier, very close to alderwood mall in what appears to be a hole where signals don't reach.

I'm using a channelmaster 4221 and currently have pointed every which way from around 10' high. My neighbors would have a heartattack if I put it up on the roof.

I'm gonna try it in the attic tonight to try and grab some more channels.

Have you tried many different attennas? This is my first and, while it really beats the indoor antenna, it doesn't seem to tune in to the 3 stations I really want - ABC,NBC, and CBS - digital of course ;-)

hdnewbie:
You can check out your location at antennaweb.org. Base on what I've read, you can combine 2 CM-4221 to one which increase the gain to higher than CM-4228. The CM-4228 is a pair of CM-4221 anyway. Fry's Electornics is out of stock of CM-4228 so who know whether it available in the future.

Originally posted by speedy777
subspace:
What type of cable are you using? Since you have a long cable run, RG-11 would be a best choice if you can't get it cheap. I forgotten the company that made the best RG-6 and RG-11. You can also gain more strength by lean the 4228 antenna (not the pole) backward a little. I did that to increase UPN signal from 30% to 55%.

Thanks Speedy,
I might try tilting the antenna back a few degrees to see if that helps!

Update on CM4228 antenna:
I installed 2-way splitter; 1 output to hdtv and other to regular tv. The antenna will work on regular tv too. These are the channels that show up on my 53" HITACHI projector tv. This TV projector purchased back in Oct, 1999 and not HDTV.

ch4 - little grainny, ok to watch.
ch5 - ghosting
ch7 - good
ch9 - good
ch11 - good
ch12 - KVOS from Bellingham, no picture, sound only (87.1miles from me)
ch13 - too ghosting, not watchable
ch16 - good
ch20 - grainny
ch22 - good
ch24 - KBCB from Bellingham, color & sound ok but picture too grainny(87.4miles from me)
ch28 - grainny
ch33 - good
ch45 - grainny
ch51 - little grainny, ok to watch
ch56 - grainny

Originally posted by howcome
Speedy777:
Check your private message. I'm interested in both offers.
howcome

howcome:
I left you a phone message yesterday 2/11/04. The antenna still in the artic. If you change your mind or whatever, leave me a voice message. I hate to spend the time to take it down (require disassemble reflector) then put it back.

quote from speedy777:
Update on CM4228 antenna:
I installed 2-way splitter; 1 output to hdtv and other to regular tv. The antenna will work on regular tv too. These are the channels that show up on my 53" HITACHI projector tv. This TV projector purchased back in Oct, 1999 and not HDTV.

Well...YES, the UHF only 4228 will WORK for regular VHF TV signal (13? and less) but reception should REALLY SUCK! I'm surprised you get any good reception of VHF, maybe 'cause your fairly close to those towers for the signal to POUND into your antenna.

I guess we all need to be a little more clear on antennas. I tend to think that since this is the HDTV forum that we are talking about DIGITAL channels. Since all the digital channels are UHF in this area I only recommend UHF antennas. Sorry if that has confused anyone because I see speedy777 talking about analog channels now. :confused:

Originally posted by quarque
I guess we all need to be a little more clear on antennas. I tend to think that since this is the HDTV forum that we are talking about DIGITAL channels. Since all the digital channels are UHF in this area I only recommend UHF antennas. Sorry if that has confused anyone because I see speedy777 talking about analog channels now. :confused:


I didn't mean to create a confusion but just thought it would be useful to pass out the finding on the Channel Master 4228 antenna.

Speedy777: Thanks, got the CM4228 hooked up (right beside TV), got a couple of HD channels. Cool.
Will set the thing up properly. Garage attic? second floor attic? Roof? I have 2 story house.
One other thing. Bought my house last year. Have cable to 5 rooms. Found 5 RG6 cables in garage attic. How do I figure out which cable goes to which room? Do I have to cut the damn things? Antenna installer? Please, Please make recommendations.
Thanks, everyone.

Originally posted by howcome
Speedy777: Thanks, got the CM4228 hooked up (right beside TV), got a couple of HD channels. Cool.
Will set the thing up properly. Garage attic? second floor attic? Roof? I have 2 story house.
One other thing. Bought my house last year. Have cable to 5 rooms. Found 5 RG6 cables in garage attic. How do I figure out which cable goes to which room? Do I have to cut the damn things? Antenna installer? Please, Please make recommendations.
Thanks, everyone.

1) The best option is to run another line for the antenna which feed outside to where all the lines come to the house. You can purchase a splitter that allow you to combine the antenna and satellite together from outside and then separate it out inside with another splitter. I break it down in simple details for you.

Outside splitter for combine antenna and Satellite.
a) Antenna and Satellite to INPUT splitter. The splitter combine 2 signals to 1 output around 5MHZ-2150MHZ (Ch2-Ch69 = 54Mhz-806Mhz, Satellite=950Mhz-2150Mhz)

b) The 2nd splitter inside the house purpose is to separate the signal out so the 950Mhz-2150Mhz to the satellite input and 5Mhz-900Mhz to antenna input. If your new receiver only have one input for both, then there is no need to separate them. I have not seen it yet, but possible the it out there. I've hard time keeping up with the electronic technology.

As far as find out what cable go to what room is easy.
a) Label all the cable from 1-5.

b) Turn on the all the TV on, then have someone help watch the TV for you.

c) Go outside where all the the cable coming in house disconnect one line at the time. Each time you disconnect, the helper will let you know which room lost the signal. You relabel from # to room (family room, etc..) as you go. Keep doing until all the room are done.

If you are doing this by yourself, just turn one 1 tv "ON" at the time but loud enough so you can hear from outside. If you plug in the right cable from outside, you can hear it. Keep repeat this to all the room that have tv. I did this a few times so no problem for me. Cutting the cable is the last option but step1 above still apply. If this not clear enough, let's me know. I can draw a sketch and email it to you. Have a good day.

Note:
The splitter go up to 2050Mhz would be fine. I would highly recommend to find out where the cable go to each room before install the antenna. Adding the antenna will make it more confusing.

I don't know if any one is interested or not, but I have an amplified Winegard GS-2000a that is taking up garage space. If anyone would like to try it out it is yours for the taking.

See it here. (http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm#gs)

Taken

Originally posted by bpdp379
I don't know if any one is interested or not, but I have an amplified Winegard GS-2000a that is taking up garage space. If anyone would like to try it out it is yours for the taking.

See it here. (http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm#gs)

bpdp379:
I am glad to take it off your hand. Where do you live?

PM sent

Originally posted by weebling1
quote from speedy777:
Update on CM4228 antenna:
I installed 2-way splitter; 1 output to hdtv and other to regular tv. The antenna will work on regular tv too. These are the channels that show up on my 53" HITACHI projector tv. This TV projector purchased back in Oct, 1999 and not HDTV.

Well...YES, the UHF only 4228 will WORK for regular VHF TV signal (13? and less) but reception should REALLY SUCK! I'm surprised you get any good reception of VHF, maybe 'cause your fairly close to those towers for the signal to POUND into your antenna.

weebling1:
The TV stations are 10.3 - 24.4 miles from my house. This information is base on Antennaweb.org. Channel #5 also is comming ok in the last few days, no more ghosting. It is little grainny but watchable.

Thanks a lot, Speedy777.
Will try it this weekend. Special Splitters? or any will do? The 811 STB has two inputs (Dish in and Antenna in), but I run them through a HK AV230 after that. So 2 splitters.
howcome

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks a lot, Speedy777.
Will try it this weekend. Special Splitters? or any will do? The 811 STB has two inputs (Dish in and Antenna in), but I run them through a HK AV230 after that. So 2 splitters.
howcome

These are not regular splitters. The DC current only pass through one way. I have a pair but unfortunately missed place somewhere couple weeks ago. There should be a label (DC & an arrow) on the splitter that indicate which direction the current flow. The outside splitter is different than the inside one. The best place to look for is on eBay. I hope you can find them.

Thanks, Speedy777. Found these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=16-2586
OK?

Installer is on their way next week w/ triple LNB Dish, Receiver, and "great antenna" to put on the roof. Anybody have good experiences with OTA on Beacon Hill?

Lafayette Ave S & S Hanford
Seattle

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks, Speedy777. Found these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=16-2586
OK?

It may or may not work. I think you can't return if the package is open. You need a pair (1outside 1inside)which cost $48+ tax...Yeah. I found my set. If you want to know what they are look like, post me your email in the private message. I would be glad to attach the image and send to you.

Originally posted by longman391
Installer is on their way next week w/ triple LNB Dish, Receiver, and "great antenna" to put on the roof. Anybody have good experiences with OTA on Beacon Hill?

Lafayette Ave S & S Hanford
Seattle

You can find more details at www.hdtvpub.com by zipcode.

Running a channelmaster 4228 8 ribbons with pre amp 777 CM and motor drive on roof. Can pick up all digital channels and high definition from Everett, WA.

longman391,
stroll thru the earlier pages of this thread. I think we've had posts from peeps near you.

Originally posted by longman391
Installer is on their way next week w/ triple LNB Dish, Receiver, and "great antenna" to put on the roof. Anybody have good experiences with OTA on Beacon Hill?

Lafayette Ave S & S Hanford
Seattle
Since you are at about 300 feet you should have no problem getting OTA from any of the major networks, even KCPQ in Bremerton. You should be able to get QA hill and Capitol Hill if you aim half way between. Bremerton will require a rotor since it would be about 90 degrees off axis. So what is the "great antenna"?

Originally posted by jaye fayed
Running a channelmaster 4228 8 ribbons with pre amp 777 CM and motor drive on roof. Can pick up all digital channels and high definition from Everett, WA.
I'm curious to know if the preamp is necessary. What can you get without it?

Thanks again Speedy777. Bought the RCA splitters before reading your message. Will try them out this weekend.
I can pick up channel 4, 5, 7, 9, 13, and 30 something with CM4228 just by putting it up besides my TV (with some moving around). But will keep you guys updated once it's on the roof. That's right, the roof. Bought a truck last weekend. Will visit Frys this weekend to get the pole, etc. Let's do the damn thing right!!!

Originally posted by quarque
So what is the "great antenna"?

LOL wish I knew. That's what the D* guy said on the phone as I was rolling my eyes.

He threw it in for free w/ installation so what was I going to do? Decline the offer? ;-)

Hope it's nothing like the "Great Pumpkin"... :)

Originally posted by quarque
I'm curious to know if the preamp is necessary. What can you get without it?

I have unplugged the pre-amp and I have lost the audio and had a less strong signal. I leave it plugged in. It's a Spartan 3 CM Pre amp. Range is about 100 miles.

May be I should pick up one of this channel master preamps to see if channel 12 & 24 coming in. These 2 channels about 87.4 miles from me. Is the Titan 2 beter than Sparten 3?

Originally posted by longman391
Installer is on their way next week w/ triple LNB Dish, Receiver, and "great antenna" to put on the roof. Anybody have good experiences with OTA on Beacon Hill?

Lafayette Ave S & S Hanford
Seattle

I'm at 13th Ave S and S Pearl St, about 2 mile south of you. I'm using an old UHF/VHF antenna (mounted back in 1980s) and a Zenith Silver Surfer, and I'm having a horrible time getting OTA channels with either one. My reciever is a Samsung TS160.

Channels 13 and 22 come in pretty consistently, but in the past 2 or 3 weeks, I've had no reception from 4, 5, or 7. Before the past few weeks, I was able to lock onto 4 and 7 with some work (re-scanning channels), and 5 was very hit or miss.

I will probably end up calling "Dan the Antenna Man" to get a new antenna mounted on the roof. I just don't know if I should call him now, or wait till I get the new HDTV Tivo that comes out in a month or two.

Originally posted by gquan
I'm at 13th Ave S and S Pearl St, about 2 mile south of you. I'm using an old UHF/VHF antenna (mounted back in 1980s) and a Zenith Silver Surfer, and I'm having a horrible time getting OTA channels with either one. My reciever is a Samsung TS160.

Channels 13 and 22 come in pretty consistently, but in the past 2 or 3 weeks, I've had no reception from 4, 5, or 7. Before the past few weeks, I was able to lock onto 4 and 7 with some work (re-scanning channels), and 5 was very hit or miss.

I will probably end up calling "Dan the Antenna Man" to get a new antenna mounted on the roof. I just don't know if I should call him now, or wait till I get the new HDTV Tivo that comes out in a month or two.

If you want to save $$, install the CM4228 (channelmaster 4228) yourself. I live about 4-6miles south from Becon Hill and didn't have much successful with TV top Gemini and Silver Sensor either. I end up installed the CM4228 in the roof artic and pick up all the channels, except TBN & SAH. The signals little weak for my Zenith HDV420 receiver to pick them up.

Whew! Excellent thread! Just finished scanning all 42 pages as I prepare to upgrade my system for over-the-air HDTV when DirecTV's HiDef Tivo's become available in next couple of months.

Quarque/Larry: Could you please do a lookup for me? I'm in Mill Creek at 47.860 deg N, 122.211 deg W and am hoping I'll be able to use the highly recommended Channel Master 4228 in my attic.

Thanks for the wonderful resources here, including Lance's Puget Sound DTV FAQ. Excellent.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Whew! Excellent thread! Just finished scanning all 42 pages as I prepare to upgrade my system for over-the-air HDTV when DirecTV's HiDef Tivo's become available in next couple of months.

Quarque/Larry: Could you please do a lookup for me? I'm in Mill Creek at 47.860 deg N, 122.211 deg W and am hoping I'll be able to use the highly recommended Channel Master 4228 in my attic.

Thanks for the wonderful resources here, including Lance's Puget Sound DTV FAQ. Excellent.
First off, you get 3 gold stars for reading all 42 pages! :D Your LOS to the Seattle towers looks very good - no hills in the way. Attic installations are tricky, so don't be surprised if you have some trouble. You may have to try several locations. The 4228 should work fine and may be able to pull in KCPQ in Bremerton without a rotor. You will want to aim at about 208 deg. (190 magnetic) to split the 34 deg. spread between CH and Bremerton. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Larry

Originally posted by gquan
I'm at 13th Ave S and S Pearl St, about 2 mile south of you. I'm using an old UHF/VHF antenna (mounted back in 1980s) and a Zenith Silver Surfer, and I'm having a horrible time getting OTA channels with either one. My reciever is a Samsung TS160.

Channels 13 and 22 come in pretty consistently, but in the past 2 or 3 weeks, I've had no reception from 4, 5, or 7. Before the past few weeks, I was able to lock onto 4 and 7 with some work (re-scanning channels), and 5 was very hit or miss.

I will probably end up calling "Dan the Antenna Man" to get a new antenna mounted on the roof. I just don't know if I should call him now, or wait till I get the new HDTV Tivo that comes out in a month or two.
I would suggest using Dan as well. Tell him you want to see the Winegard Square Shooter in his collection of tools. The advantage it has over the 4228 is lower gain (you're close in) AND it has no side or rear lobes in the reception pattern which makes it very good at rejecting multipath. I'm pretty sure your problem is multipath.

Originally posted by quarque
I would suggest using Dan as well. Tell him you want to see the Winegard Square Shooter in his collection of tools. The advantage it has over the 4228 is lower gain (you're close in) AND it has no side or rear lobes in the reception pattern which makes it very good at rejecting multipath. I'm pretty sure your problem is multipath.

quarque:
I don't see higher gain of 4228 is an issue. Here are my reasons:
1) The anntenna will be point between tv station KOMO(4) and Q13 so the signals coming aren't direct.

2) For most people the antenna will be split to feed through the whole house, which more likely 4 way-split. There is 3.5db loss for 2-way splitter and 7db loss 4-way splitter. If you have along RG-6 cable run, there is another ~4db/100".

3) To lower the gain, the reflector can be remove or point the 4228 to the opposite direction so the signals pass through the back of the antenna. If you read my early post, I was able to pick up channel 28 from Tacoma which pass through the back side of the antenna.

4) As far as ghosting, I have my antenna 2-way split and channel 13 from the analog tv is too ghosting but no problem with HDTV.

I am not try to promote people to do his/her own. The only way to learn is do it yourself if you can, and of course test it out in the ground before move to higher location. There a lot of circumstances (age, time, tool, health,skill, etc...) and it would be best to let someone doing for you. Since the digital signal is very sensitive, just 1/2" move can turn an ok signal into bad. My point is the antenna installer won't be there for free to re-adjust for you.

I think my line of sight is very poor due to a ridge, but Quarque could you run my address?

2517 Lake Drive
Everett, WA 98205 [zip changing to 98258] [2 blocks N. of Lake Stevens]

Street Crossing: 1 block N. of Lake Drive and Soper Hill Rd.
Map may show 3-way Lundeen/Soper Hill Rd./Lake Drive

I am currently on Comcast and satellite, but sick of waiting for KIRO to get their act together.

Thanks!

:D

Help!

Today installed I had a local installer install a 'Corner Reflector Yagi Style' OTA antenna on my roof and I can get all local channels except for KCPQ which I know is Bremerton. All the local channels Im getting right now are coming in at around 75 to 80%.

I live at 18220 61st Ave NE in Kenmore with the nearest cross street being 182 Ave NE and would like some help in finding out if I even have a prayer of being able to pickup KCPQ. Note that I live up a private drive and am about 50 feet above street level and my house is very tall so the antenna is another ~60 feet higher and I have a fairly good clean line of site south. I can see lake Washington from my front window if that gives you a good idea.

And will KCPQ continue to broadcast from Bremerton? It would seem the should broadcast from somewhere more local to Seattle.

Thanks in advance...

Originally posted by speedy777
quarque:
I don't see higher gain of 4228 is an issue. Here are my reasons:
1) The anntenna will be point between tv station KOMO(4) and Q13 so the signals coming aren't direct.

2) For most people the antenna will be split to feed through the whole house, which more likely 4 way-split. There is 3.5db lost for 2-way splitter and 7db lost 4-way splitter. If you have along RG-6 cable run, there is another ~4db/100".

3) To lower the gain, the reflector can be remove or point the 4228 to the opposite direction so the signals pass through the back of the antenna. If you read my early post, I was able to pick up channel 28 from Tacoma which pass through the back side of the antenna.

4) As far as ghosting, I have my antenna 2-way split and channel 13 from the analog tv is too ghosting but no problem with HDTV.

I am not try to promote people to do his/her own. The only way to learn is do it yourself if you can, and of course test it out in the ground before move to higher location. There a lot of circumstances (age, time, tool, health,skill, etc...) and it would be best to let someone doing for you. Since the digital signal is very sensitive, just 1/2" move can turn an ok signal into bad. My point is the antenna installer won't be there for free to re-adjust for you.

All very good points, but if you were set up like me (one TV on 15 feet of RG6) then excess gain can be a big problem when you are within a few miles of a tower.

Originally posted by davegtestr
I think my line of sight is very poor due to a ridge, but Quarque could you run my address?

2517 Lake Drive
Everett, WA 98205 [zip changing to 98258] [2 blocks N. of Lake Stevens]

Street Crossing: 1 block N. of Lake Drive and Soper Hill Rd.
Map may show 3-way Lundeen/Soper Hill Rd./Lake Drive

I am currently on Comcast and satellite, but sick of waiting for KIRO to get their act together.

Thanks!

:D
Your LOS to Seattle towers is somewhat marginal and very dependent on the height of your antenna. It looks as though you need to get at least 25 feet off the ground to have a clear shot. I would go with a short mast on your roof (or tall mast if it is single-story). Bremerton looks to be less of a problem. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Originally posted by OffTheEdge
Help!

Today installed I had a local installer install a 'Corner Reflector Yagi Style' OTA antenna on my roof and I can get all local channels except for KCPQ which I know is Bremerton. All the local channels Im getting right now are coming in at around 75 to 80%.

I live at 18220 61st Ave NE in Kenmore with the nearest cross street being 182 Ave NE and would like some help in finding out if I even have a prayer of being able to pickup KCPQ. Note that I live up a private drive and am about 50 feet above street level and my house is very tall so the antenna is another ~60 feet higher and I have a fairly good clean line of site south. I can see lake Washington from my front window if that gives you a good idea.

And will KCPQ continue to broadcast from Bremerton? It would seem the should broadcast from somewhere more local to Seattle.

Thanks in advance...
You should have no problem getting Bremerton - there are no hills in your way. You can either add a rotor or add a second antenna pointed at KCPQ and combine signals. Have you tried pointing halfway between QA and Bremerton? They are only about 30 degrees apart and that should be covered by your yagi. If not, I would go with the rotor if your setup will accept it. KCPQ is still negotiating to get cross-carriage back onto the CH tower. No idea when that might happen.

Originally posted by quarque
You might consider taking the 4228 apart and reassembling it in the attic. Several people in the AVS forums have done this. You might search for 4228 and "assembly" or such. I think the first step is to take off the screen (easy). If it is still too big then drill out the rivets and reassemble with screws.

Thanks for this suggestion. I was just able to get the separate screen and dipole assembly of the 4228 through the roof access without having to drill out the rivets (OK, I did scrape the sides of the access opening a little but my wife hasn't noticed it yet;)).

Reassembling it was easy enough and I have a good space in my attic to position it. In fact it was far easier to rotate than my previous RS VU-75XR.

Quarque had advised that my LOS was marginal because of Bellevue hills in the path and low elevation (almost on Lk Sammamish). So how did the 4228 perform? Just great! I was able to pull in all the local DTV stations except King-DT. Signals were mostly reliable and had dropout problems only on one night in the last 8 weeks. A huge improvement over the RS yagi.

This weekend, I installed the 7777 pre-amp which was on a long backorder before it finally arrived. I can pull King-DT now at ~50% and all others are at >90% signal strength on MyHD II card. Currently watching "A Knight's Tale" on it without any dropouts so far.

I am really pleased with this accomplishment after a long quest for OTA DTV! CM do make products that work but I owe a large part of this to quarque and you guys. THANK YOU!

If anyone on this forum thread who has less marginal LOS and would like my retired RS VU-75XR (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2151), first to send me pm or e-mail can have it (provided you come get it from me!).
:D :D :D

Originally posted by GHzGeek

Quarque had advised that my LOS was marginal because of Bellevue hills in the path and low elevation (almost on Lk Sammamish). So how did the 4228 perform? Just great! I was able to pull in all the local DTV stations except King-DT. Signals were mostly reliable and had a dropout problems only on one night in the last 8 weeks. A huge improvement over the RS yagi.

This weekend, I installed the 7777 pre-amp which was on a long backorder before it finally arrived. I can pull King-DT now at ~50% and all others are at >90% signal strength on MyHD II card. Currently watching "A Knight's Tale" on it without any dropouts so far.

I am really pleased with this accomplishment after a long quest for OTA DTV! CM do make products that work but I owe a large part of this to quarque and you guys. THANK YOU!

:D :D :D
My pleasure, really! Gotta love that 4228. After seeing how many people struggle to get OTA (and all I needed on my first night was a piece of wire!), it is great to hear about these successes. It also adds to the database of installations that help me to give more accurate predictions to people.

Hi, Guys:
Got my CM 4228 onj the roof. Getting 5, 7, 9, 13, etc OK. But several channel come in @49% signal strength. They are unstable as well. Sometime I get them and sometime not. I got a pair of splitter to combine and split connection. Should I get a preamp? If so, recommendations, please. Oh, It took me a while to set the thing up on my roof. I don't want to move it around.
Thanks.

Originally posted by howcome
Hi, Guys:
Got my CM 4228 onj the roof. Getting 5, 7, 9, 13, etc OK. But several channel come in @49% signal strength. They are unstable as well. Sometime I get them and sometime not. I got a pair of splitter to combine and split connection. Should I get a preamp? If so, recommendations, please. Oh, It took me a while to set the thing up on my roof. I don't want to move it around.
Thanks.
Exactly which channels are problematic? What exact direction is the antenna pointing (degrees)? A preamp is in order if you have long cable runs. It will not usually solve problems like multipath (can even make it worse). CM7777 is a popular one. If the preamp and different aiming won't do it you may have to move the antenna around. :(

Thanks, Quarque.
I got KING, KIRO, KONG, KTWB fine most of the time, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KWPX sometimes. I have ~100 ft cable run with two splitters (Combine Dish and antenna outside the house then split inside to Dish 811). Followed by my Dish 811, then HK AVR. My antenna is pointing ~170. It's on my roof. 20ft (house) + 10 ft (antenna pole). I am located at 21752 34th PL. W. Brier, 98036
Should I try CM7777? where can I get it? Fry's?
Thanks again

Howcome:
Fry's Electronic doesn't carry CM7777 preamp. I hope your splitters allow DC pass through to get CM7777 to amplify the signal.

Hey guys, I live in Redmond. It's actually unincorporated King County, but they call it Redmond so they can sell homes. The neighborhood is called "Redmond Ridge" and it's up on Novelty Hill. My coords are:

47.688N
122.040W

My neighborhood prohibits antennas on the roof, so I'm going to have to go in Attic. There are no houses taller than me to the SW, so I think I should be good on near obstructions. I need to know what antenna combinations will get me the most channels.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
BoB

Bob I live on 80th just south of the south entrance to Redmond Ridge. I am getting great results with a CM4228. Look here for details. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3493865#post3493865) I was having the biggest problem with NBC being weak. Moving the antenna to the other side of the house cured it.

PM me if you want to see my setup or need help.

Originally posted by BoB-O TiVo
Hey guys, I live in Redmond. It's actually unincorporated King County, but they call it Redmond so they can sell homes. The neighborhood is called "Redmond Ridge" and it's up on Novelty Hill. My coords are:

47.688N
122.040W

My neighborhood prohibits antennas on the roof, so I'm going to have to go in Attic. There are no houses taller than me to the SW, so I think I should be good on near obstructions. I need to know what antenna combinations will get me the most channels.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
BoB
You are on a nice plateau so you have no LOS problems to worry about. If your roof is not covered with metal roofing or have foil-backed insulation you should have a decent chance with a high-gain antenna in the attic. The CM 4228 is a good choice. You should be able to get all major networks without a rotor because of your location lines up well with QA + CH + Bremerton. Good luck!

P.S. see my post under DVD players in answer to your question.

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks, Quarque.
I got KING, KIRO, KONG, KTWB fine most of the time, KCTS, KSTW, KCPQ, KWPX sometimes. I have ~100 ft cable run with two splitters (Combine Dish and antenna outside the house then split inside to Dish 811). Followed by my Dish 811, then HK AVR. My antenna is pointing ~170. It's on my roof. 20ft (house) + 10 ft (antenna pole). I am located at 21752 34th PL. W. Brier, 98036
Should I try CM7777? where can I get it? Fry's?
Thanks again
100 feet is a lot without a preamp - put one in!

Originally posted by quarque
You are on a nice plateau so you have no LOS problems to worry about. If your roof is not covered with metal roofing or have foil-backed insulation you should have a decent chance with a high-gain antenna in the attic. The CM 4228 is a good choice. You should be able to get all major networks without a rotor because of your location lines up well with QA + CH + Bremerton. Good luck!

P.S. see my post under DVD players in answer to your question.

Thanks a ton! The 4228 looks good, but I'd like to get VHF as well for rooms without a satellite box or HDTV decoder. Recommendations?

Thanks,
BoB

P.S. Where do you get this topo data?

Hi Quarque,

I've got a pretty good signal on everything except Fox with my CM4228 with a 7775 Preamp. I live in Lynnwood at Lat = 47.8; Lon = 122.3. I'm thinking of using a CM join-tenna and a second antenna to add FOX.

My question is, can you tell me what heading (degrees) the Gold Mountain transmitter is from my location. Do I have a good LOS? I would also be curious of what the distance is if you can tell me that too. :)

When I use antennaweb.org for my location it never shows FOX DT for me for some reason.

Thanks!

Bob-O - Rat Shack has several models and I believe you can return them if they don't work. VHF analog is not nearly as finicky as digital. :)

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about the FCC rules regarding antennas. Apparently most of these local rules are illegal except for a few exceptions. So you can put an antenna on your roof if you want and then show the neighbors (or association) the FCC rule regarding antennas. In most cases they OVERrule the locals. Search AVS for "FCC rules" and you should find a link to it.

Topo is via DeLorme Topo USA DVD. Just ordered 5.0 for $59 because my maps are getting old and I can't find a lot of the streets that AVS peeps drop on me.

Originally posted by subspace
Hi Quarque,

I've got a pretty good signal on everything except Fox with my CM4228 with a 7775 Preamp. I live in Lynnwood at Lat = 47.8; Lon = 122.3. I'm thinking of using a CM join-tenna and a second antenna to add FOX.

My question is, can you tell me what heading (degrees) the Gold Mountain transmitter is from my location. Do I have a good LOS? I would also be curious of what the distance is if you can tell me that too. :)

When I use antennaweb.org for my location it never shows FOX DT for me for some reason.

Thanks!
Gold Mtn is 229 deg (211 magnetic) and 27.7 miles from you.

Originally posted by quarque
Gold Mtn is 229 deg (211 magnetic) and 27.7 miles from you.

Thanks Larry! Did you happen to notice if the LOS is good for me in that direction?

LOS is no problema...

Originally posted by subspace
Hi Quarque,

When I use antennaweb.org for my location it never shows FOX DT for me for some reason.

Thanks!

I put in 98036 zip and it shows KCPQ-DT at the top of list. Their bearing is listed as 215 degrees (from center of that zip code, wherever that is). So split the difference = 213 deg.

Originally posted by quarque
I put in 98036 zip and it shows KCPQ-DT at the top of list. Their bearing is listed as 215 degrees (from center of that zip code, wherever that is). So split the difference = 213 deg.

Interesting. After reading that you got a bearing for FOX I went back to antennaweb.org. and tried it... What I found was that if you check that button that says "Yes" you have "buildings, steeples, towers, or other structures taller than four stories within four blocks of your location, airports within two miles of your location, and/or many nearby trees over 30 feet tall..."

Then is will not include FOX in the listing.... If you check "No" to that question then it will include FOX.

I've got trees over 30' tall so I have always checked that button.

Regardless, thanks for your help! :)

CORRECTION: when I enter my complete address AND check Yes to the tall trees question, THEN it doesn't include FOX for me.... its weird

Just say NO to trees! :D :D :D

Okay... I'm a little confused about how to order the Join-tenna.

I understand that you must specify what channel it is for when you place your order. In my case, I plan to use it to pull FOX (13.1) in on a secondary UHF antenna and combine that with all the other channels that I currently get from my primary UHF antenna.

Anyway, when I see FOX DT listed on antennaweb.org there are two different "numbers" listed. There is the "channel" which is listed as 13.1 but then there is the "frequency assignment" which is listed as 18.

Which do I use when ordering my join-tenna.... 13 or 18?

Thanks!

You need to specify channel 18, the actual broadcast frequency.

13-1 is a "logical" channel that KCPQ chooses to use to identify their DTV signal and relate it to their analog channel 13.

Your antenna needs to be used for channel 18.

Good luck!

Originally posted by Budget_HT
You need to specify channel 18, the actual broadcast frequency.

13-1 is a "logical" channel that KCPQ chooses to use to identify their DTV signal and relate it to their analog channel 13.

Your antenna needs to be used for channel 18.

Good luck!

Thanks Dave! :)

Originally posted by BoB-O TiVo

My neighborhood prohibits antennas on the roof, so I'm going to have to go in Attic.

I'm pretty sure that the same laws that protect sat dishes from the evil HOAs protects reasonable attennas.

You can put up an antenna on your house regardless of what the homeowner's association says. I put one up on a 10-foot mast myself! :)

Here's the link.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Originally posted by Budget_HT
You need to specify channel 18, the actual broadcast frequency.

13-1 is a "logical" channel that KCPQ chooses to use to identify their DTV signal and relate it to their analog channel 13.

Your antenna needs to be used for channel 18.

Good luck!

Okay, I ordered the UHF Channel Master 0585-01 (Channel 18) Join-Tenna from Warren Electronics this morning. It was $25.34 plus $5.75 for FedEx Ground shipping. The guy told me that it would take 2-3 weeks to get to me because these units are special ordered from Channel Master.

I do have one question... I seem to remember reading somewhere that the length of the coax from each antenna to this unit need to be identical. Is that correct? I might be confusing this requirement with what is needed when just using a standard combiner... I don't know.

I hope not because I have no idea what the length of the coax on my current antenna is (and no easy way to measure it). I suppose I could try and use a multimeter to measure the resistance on the center wire and perhaps adjust the length of the second antenna's coax to match the resistance of the primary antenna's coax. Any ideas?

Thanks! :)

Where can I buy this locally again? I know Fry's is meant to stock it but I can never find it there? I recall someone saying it isn't kept with the regular antenna's?

Originally posted by pdampier
Where can I buy this locally again? I know Fry's is meant to stock it but I can never find it there? I recall someone saying it isn't kept with the regular antenna's?

I've heard that Pringle Electronics in Everett stocks the 4228. According to Yahoo! Yellow Pages, they are at 1021 N Broadway in Everett. Phone is: (425) 258-6161.

Fry's doesn't display this antenna with the rest of their video stuff. You need to ask a clerk to check their computer for stock, then hope that they know where they're actually displayed.

I have a used 4228 for sale $45 if you pick it up local. I'm in Mukilteo. I also have a RS 15-1108 adjustable gain amp to go with the 4228 for $40 if you need it.

PM me Derek

Originally posted by subspace

I do have one question... I seem to remember reading somewhere that the length of the coax from each antenna to this unit need to be identical. Is that correct? I might be confusing this requirement with what is needed when just using a standard combiner... I don't know.

Thanks! :)
You only need to match lengths when you are combining signals of the same frequency to maintain phasing of the signals (otherwise they will partially or totally cancel each other out). Since you are pulling a single channel off one antenna and not trying to combine that with the same channel on the other antenna, the length should not matter.

Originally posted by quarque
You only need to match lengths when you are combining signals of the same frequency to maintain phasing of the signals (otherwise they will partially or totally cancel each other out). Since you are pulling a single channel off one antenna and not trying to combine that with the same channel on the other antenna, the length should not matter.

Whew!! I was hoping it wouldn't matter. That greatly simplifies things.
Thanks!

Originally posted by subspace
Whew!! I was hoping it wouldn't matter. That greatly simplifies things.
Thanks!
I might be needing to pick up the same join-tenna unit, thanks for giving me an idea of the price (I feared it might be 100 bucks or something since it's "special order").

Something for you to consider for the join-tenna:
In one of the other threads in the local reception forum, a member who is a professional installer recommended wrapping the join-tenna unit in tinfoil because as he said "it leaks (RF) like a sieve"... I assume you would also have to somehow tie the tinfoil to the coax shield to complete the grounding if this is the case. It struck me as odd that CM would design something that would be so susceptible to or able to generate interference, but then I got my Winegard HD9085P antenna last week and the balun box it uses seems to have just as goofy a design, with cheap plastic housing and phenolic circuit board snapped into it with no shielding whatsoever... Heck, I don't even think it's really waterproof, and it's mounted right on the antenna!. We'll see how it works this week.

-Mike

Hi, Guys:
I was looking at a CM7777 preamp for my CM4228. Just realized there is a power supply on the CM7777. Damn, Do I have to drag a power line all the way up on my roof? Is there any preamp w/ it's own portable power supply? Battery?
Dumb question I know. But have to ask.
Thanks.

Originally posted by howcome
Hi, Guys:
I was looking at a CM7777 preamp for my CM4228. Just realized there is a power supply on the CM7777. Damn, Do I have to drag a power line all the way up on my roof? Is there any preamp w/ it's own portable power supply? Battery?
Dumb question I know. But have to ask.
Thanks. As I understand it, there is an AC power supply provided and it puts out 18 Volts DC through the coax to the preamp. So the power supply stays in the house wherever it is convenient to put it inline with the coax.

Originally posted by howcome
Hi, Guys:
Damn, Do I have to drag a power line all the way up on my roof?
The power supply would be placed anywhere along the coax run, normally near the end closest to your TV. It injects the DC voltage right onto the center conductor of the coax to send it up to the amplifier which is situated at the other end of the coax run near your antenna. So no, you don't have to put the power supply at your roof.

howcome:
The preamp is actually in two parts -- the preamp that mounts with the antenna, and the power supply that's inside your house near the TV. The coax that carries the signal from your antenna is used to also carry the power from your house up to the preamp.

Thanks a bunch, Guys.
That's great. Just one question:
I have a combiner/splitter combination (Antenna + Dish into one then split to 811). Is this going to be any problem?
I appreciate the help.

Did everyone go to sleep in this thread? I don't recall ever seeing it so quiet here.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Did everyone go to sleep in this thread? I don't recall ever seeing it so quiet here.

I think everyone is waiting for the new HDTiVo over here... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169031

Originally posted by subspace
I think everyone is waiting for the new HDTiVo over here... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169031

Me too, but after a while I get tired of reading that thread.

Maybe the exceptional weather we are having here has an impact too.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Me too, but after a while I get tired of reading that thread.

Maybe the exceptional weather we are having here has an impact too.

Oh man! I hear ya!! The weather is spectacular! I just wish I didn't have to travel to Ottawa, Ontario today for work!!

http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/CAXX0343.html

Hi quarque

quarque,

I am new to this fourm and see that your provide an invaluable service to new prospects looking to get an HD OTA signal. I am nervous about my chances and would appreciate some help. I am located at 20627 113th Dr SE, Snohomish 98296. Thanks

Originally posted by Home state
quarque,

I am new to this fourm and see that your provide an invaluable service to new prospects looking to get an HD OTA signal. I am nervous about my chances and would appreciate some help. I am located at 20627 113th Dr SE, Snohomish 98296. Thanks
Welcome Homey. I have 2 pieces of news:

1) WARNING: we advise people to not publish their home addresses on the 'net. I can do a pretty fair job just using the nearest cross streets or you can PM me if you are in some brand new development that won't be found on any maps.

2) You do not have direct line-of-sight to the QA towers. But if you have a 2-story house and can put a 15-foot mast on the roof you might have a chance. Your elevation is about 320 feet and there is a 450 foot hill about 1 mile to the SW. We have seen a number of these "marginal" situations still pull in stations due to the refraction of signal as it goes over a hill. You may want to pay for a site evaluation before you plunk down some big $$$ on equipment. It is really difficult to give you a definitive answer. If you can borrow some OTA equipment you can test your site yourself if you can put a decent antenna on your roof (even without a mast). If you get most stations with a few dropouts then a taller mast should help a lot. If you get nothing or almost nothing it is doubtful an extra 10-15 feet will do it.

Good luck!

thanks for the good information. I think I will get a site survey before going any further.

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks a bunch, Guys.
That's great. Just one question:
I have a combiner/splitter combination (Antenna + Dish into one then split to 811). Is this going to be any problem?
I appreciate the help.

:confused:

I have a CM4228 installed with a 7775 Pre-amp and a rotator and it is working okay. I sometimes need to use the rotator to tweak the direction for Channel 5-1(King5) or 9(PBS).


Anyway, my question is, do you think I might do a little better with a YAGI style antenna? Like the 4248?

I have seen the gain charts for the 4248 vs. the 4228 and I realize that the 4228 is generally the "best" when measured in that way. So why do people ever choose the Yagi style antennas if the flat 4228 cost the same and generally takes up less space? The fact that people DO buy the 4248 leads me to believe that there may be a particular reason why they would choose that over the same price 4228... Am I missing something?

Originally posted by subspace
I have a CM4228 installed with a 7775 Pre-amp and a rotator and it is working okay. I sometimes need to use the rotator to tweak the direction for Channel 5-1(King5) or 9(PBS).


Anyway, my question is, do you think I might do a little better with a YAGI style antenna? Like the 4248?

I have seen the gain charts for the 4248 vs. the 4228 and I realize that the 4228 is generally the "best" when measured in that way. So why do people ever choose the Yagi style antennas if the flat 4228 cost the same and generally takes up less space? The fact that people DO buy the 4248 leads me to believe that there may be a particular reason why they would choose that over the same price 4228... Am I missing something?
The 4248 is slightly less directional and has slightly less gain. Other than that there is not much difference. It could be advantageous to use the 4248 if you are trying to cover a wider spread of towers without having to rotate it. Other than that, people prefer YAGI's for numerous personal and philosophical reasons that are debated endlessly all over the net. The rule of thumb is "whatever works". If your 4228 is not performing to your satisfaction and money is no object, then try a 4248. Are you merely trying to eliminate the rotation nuisance between CH 5 and 9 or is there some other problem?

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Did everyone go to sleep in this thread? I don't recall ever seeing it so quiet here.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

shhhhhhhhhhhh........ I'm sleeping.

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks a bunch, Guys.
That's great. Just one question:
I have a combiner/splitter combination (Antenna + Dish into one then split to 811). Is this going to be any problem?
I appreciate the help.
Since I don't have a dish I have little experience with these setups. I suggest you post this as a new topic on this forum or the Hardware forum.

Originally posted by quarque
The 4248 is slightly less directional and has slightly less gain. Other than that there is not much difference. It could be advantageous to use the 4248 if you are trying to cover a wider spread of towers without having to rotate it. Other than that, people prefer YAGI's for numerous personal and philosophical reasons that are debated endlessly all over the net. The rule of thumb is "whatever works". If your 4228 is not performing to your satisfaction and money is no object, then try a 4248. Are you merely trying to eliminate the rotation nuisance between CH 5 and 9 or is there some other problem?

Basically it is the rotate nuisance 5/9 I'm trying to overcome. Once I get my HDTiVo setup, I don't want to have to worry about whether or not the antenna is pointing the right way when the TiVo tries to record Nova or Leno...

Originally posted by howcome
Thanks a bunch, Guys.
That's great. Just one question:
I have a combiner/splitter combination (Antenna + Dish into one then split to 811). Is this going to be any problem?
I appreciate the help.

Should be okay. I currently "combine" my OTA and DirecTV lines into "one" with my Terk BMS-58 multiswitch. Then I split the cable into two again in my living room. The antenna goes to my LG LST3100A and the DirectTV line goes to my DirecTV receiver.

Originally posted by subspace
Basically it is the rotate nuisance 5/9 I'm trying to overcome. Once I get my HDTiVo setup, I don't want to have to worry about whether or not the antenna is pointing the right way when the TiVo tries to record Nova or Leno...
I'm redoing my reply since I spaced on it last night...

I am surprised you need to rotate between CH and QA hill. I am much closer than you and I get CH and QA AND Bremerton on my 4228 without rotation. I have it pointed about midway between the three locations. Do you have dropouts if you leave it pointed midway between CH and QA?

Larry (quarque), you provide an invaluable service here.

Seattle is lucky to have your volunteer services on this forum. I wonder if other areas are served anywhere near as well.

Thanks from me and many others here at AVSForum.

[edited to delete reference to prior post updated by quarque]

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Actually, 5 is on Queen Anne Hill and 9 is on Capitol Hill.

quarque, you provide an invaluable service here. You must be tired or multithreading today because this oversight is far from your track record.

Seattle is lucky to have your volunteer services on this forum. I wonder if other areas are served anywhere near as well.

Thanks from me and many others here at AVSForum.
Thanks Dave for picking up on this blatant error. I admit I am a little burned out after doing my taxes AND my son's taxes today. I think I need a nap. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... 'night all.

I whole heartily second Dave's comments! Thanks for everything Larry! :)

Does anyone here know if all the local HDTV channels are being broadcast at "full" power. By "full" power, I mean, at the highest power level the respective stations intend to use? I know in some markets, stations have started broadcasting digitally, but they are not yet at full power (for some reason).

Originally posted by subspace
Does anyone here know if all the local HDTV channels are being broadcast at "full" power. By "full" power, I mean, at the highest power level the respective stations intend to use? I know in some markets, stations have started broadcasting digitally, but they are not yet at full power (for some reason).
Yes all major stations/networks are at full power or close to it. The limit is set by the FCC. Some of the misc. (shopping) channels may not be at full power but who cares?

P.S. please read my revised reply to your earlier question about switching to a yagi on the previous page.

Originally posted by quarque
I'm redoing my reply since I spaced on it last night...

I am surprised you need to rotate between CH and QA hill. I am much closer than you and I get CH and QA AND Bremerton on my 4228 without rotation. I have it pointed about midway between the three locations. Do you have dropouts if you leave it pointed midway between CH and QA?

I will need to test this to be able to give you an answer. One problem I have which may be unsolvable is that I do have a lot of tall trees directly behind my house....

Originally posted by quarque
Yes all major stations/networks are at full power or close to it. The limit is set by the FCC. Some of the misc. (shopping) channels may not be at full power but who cares?

P.S. please read my revised reply to your earlier question about switching to a yagi on the previous page.

I'm not sure about UPN... Aren't they supposed to have a new transmitter online by June/July?

-Lance

Last we heard, KSTW-DT/UPN/Channel 11-1 was broadcasting directionally with limited power, favoring Tacoma to the south (their city of license) with some backside signal radiation pattern delivering a lesser signal to the north. I thought that Ron D., the station engineer, mentioned some issue with possible UHF channel interference up in Canada, and that they were awaiting some joint FCC/Canadian approval to go full power.

Or, maybe that has all changed I just never heard. I do remember the mention of June, 2004 as the expected change date.

Ron used to post here occasionally, but I don't know how much he participates now.

Dave - I think you are correct. I was looking at a DT listing that had them listed at 850kW but the FCC site shows that as a construction permit. So I think they are still at 68kW. Not sure what the schedule is. Do you have Ron's email address? I can't find his last email and I forgot to put him in my address book. Doh!

Also, their radiation pattern has the major lobes pointing NE and SW with minor lobes facing SE and NW. The FCC polar plot shows the signal strength is symmetrical for NE/SW lobes so us lucky folks to the NE/SW can pick it up easily even at 68kW.

Originally posted by quarque
Dave - I think you are correct. I was looking at a DT listing that had them listed at 850kW but the FCC site shows that as a construction permit. So I think they are still at 68kW. Not sure what the schedule is. Do you have Ron's email address? I can't find his last email and I forgot to put him in my address book. Doh!

Also, their radiation pattern has the major lobes pointing NE and SW with minor lobes facing SE and NW. The FCC polar plot shows the signal strength is symmetrical for NE/SW lobes so us lucky folks to the NE/SW can pick it up easily even at 68kW.

Larry, sent you a PM to answer your question.

Hey, our one-year anniversary is coming up for "Seattle Changes" on May 1st. Seems hard to believe. It was a good year except for the loss of cross-carriage on 13-2 and 22-2 - a big setback for some people. Overall, we are not doing too badly compared to other parts of the country. If you don't live near a major city you may be SOL on HDTV. The east coast certainly has it better than the west coast (esp. north of SF). The middle of the country has many large holes with no HD. A friend of mine in Wenatchee figures it will be 2010 before he sees HD (too cheap to get a dish). And spring is finally here! I'm spending a lot less time online and enjoying the outdoors.

As much as Seattle Changes it also remains the Same. :)

Been away for a while - what happened to all the OTA'ers in Seattle? Surely someone has a problem with something! Or a comment!

For the newbies or those contemplating OTA I still do line-of-site plots for your location - just post your nearest intersection.

Originally posted by quarque
Been away for a while - what happened to all the OTA'ers in Seattle? Surely someone has a problem with something! Or a comment!

For the newbies or those contemplating OTA I still do line-of-site plots for your location - just post your nearest intersection.

Hi Larry,

Your willingness to help is commendable and greatly appreciated. I have one tiny question (which I admit I could probably find by doing some searching...). Is the best local "guru" who will make on site assemsments of your reception capabilities the guy "Dan"? If so, do you have his contact info?

I've got my CM4228 with a 7775 pre-amp and a rotator installed on my roof but since I got my new HDTiVo, I'm having some trouble keeping a lock on my local digital stations. Prior to hooking up the new HDTiVo, I was using an LG LST-3100A which could hold nearly every channel solid (with out rotating the antenna). Now that I'm using the HDTiVo, I'm thinking its internal OTA receiver is not as sensitive as the LST-3100A's was... With th eHDTiVo, I have to fine tune the antenna's direction for each channel in order to get a reliable signal.

Anyway, I'm thinking maybe someone like Dan might be able to tell me if I will do better with a different location on my house or perhaps a difference antenna...

I have heard that the LG receivers are very good at low level signals and locking onto stations. So it may be the HDTivo is not as good (would not surprise me). Changing antenna location or the actual antenna is worth a try if you have the patience and money. I'm not sure what exactly Dan is willing to do (or capable of doing) regarding specific receivers. You might try the numbers below and talk to him. I've never dealt with the guy but he gets high marks from AVS members.

Dan the antenna man
aka Kurts Inc.
425-874-7443
206-794-3993

Thanks! :)

Quarque,

How does HD OTA look from 267th PL SE and Belvedere, Sammamish? Not sure my little hand held $1.98 compass is accurate. Thanks for the valuable service you provide.
Mike

Originally posted by AMMO
Quarque,

How does HD OTA look from 267th PL SE and Belvedere, Sammamish? Not sure my little hand held $1.98 compass is accurate. Thanks for the valuable service you provide.
Mike
Mike - you have a hill to the WNW that just barely blocks direct LOS (at ground level). If you put an antenna on your roof you should have a decent chance at OTA. If your house is only 1 story you may need a 15-ft mast on the roof, but you could try it first without it. Your heading to QA towers is 278 deg (260 magnetic). Are you contemplating the purchase of equipment or do you already have a receiver?

Hi Quarque,
wondering if you could take a look at my situation also. I used to be using a myHD card in my PC and recieved spotty reception at best, this with 20' of mast off of my 2 story house. Ive since purchased a lst-3100a reciever (mainly for the qam tuner) that I haven't tried (for OTA) yet. I hear its more sensitive than the myHD.
I could pick up CBS (spotty) abc (pretty well) and not NBC at all. I did get PBS once for about an hour. I pick up the shopping network and KONG just fine.
I'm up in Everett (east of the Mall, down into the snohomish valley) with the crosstreets of 90th street SE and Shadow Wood drive. Just wondering if I'm beating a dead horse here, of if I should try again with the LG reciever.
Thanks, Rick

Originally posted by RickE
Hi Quarque,
wondering if you could take a look at my situation also. I used to be using a myHD card in my PC and recieved spotty reception at best, this with 20' of mast off of my 2 story house. Ive since purchased a lst-3100a reciever (mainly for the qam tuner) that I haven't tried (for OTA) yet. I hear its more sensitive than the myHD.
I could pick up CBS (spotty) abc (pretty well) and not NBC at all. I did get PBS once for about an hour. I pick up the shopping network and KONG just fine.
I'm up in Everett (east of the Mall, down into the snohomish valley) with the crosstreets of 90th street SE and Shadow Wood drive. Just wondering if I'm beating a dead horse here, of if I should try again with the LG reciever.
Thanks, Rick

Hi Rick,

I can't comment on the myHD card, but I will say that the 3100A is very good at locking a weak digital signal (see me earlier post on this page).

Originally posted by quarque
Been away for a while - what happened to all the OTA'ers in Seattle? Surely someone has a problem with something! Or a comment!

For the newbies or those contemplating OTA I still do line-of-site plots for your location - just post your nearest intersection.

Nice to see this thread come back to life again!

I installed my Winegard SquareShooter last week in anticipation of my new HR10-250 HiDef DirecTivo shipping in the next week or two. It seems to work quite well with analog UHF channels in our area with some ghosting/multipath on the stronger stations (e.g. Ch 22 and 16). I didn't install a preamp, figuring I can add that later if needed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it'll work well for our digital stations, but have no way to verify until I get my new receiver.

Originally posted by RickE
Hi Quarque,
wondering if you could take a look at my situation also. I used to be using a myHD card in my PC and recieved spotty reception at best, this with 20' of mast off of my 2 story house. Ive since purchased a lst-3100a reciever (mainly for the qam tuner) that I haven't tried (for OTA) yet. I hear its more sensitive than the myHD.
I could pick up CBS (spotty) abc (pretty well) and not NBC at all. I did get PBS once for about an hour. I pick up the shopping network and KONG just fine.
I'm up in Everett (east of the Mall, down into the snohomish valley) with the crosstreets of 90th street SE and Shadow Wood drive. Just wondering if I'm beating a dead horse here, of if I should try again with the LG reciever.
Thanks, Rick
Rick - well that horse will never win the Derby. :( You have a hill 1 mile to the SSW that is blocking LOS. You would need another 50 feet of mast at least. You are obviously picking up reflected/refracted signals which will always be problematic. The Shopping Network is on the eastside so that explains that one - not sure why you would get KONG since it is on the KING tower (must be a good reflection off a building). About your only chance is to rotate your antenna in all directions to look for stable reflections.

litzdog911 -

The SqS has gotten a lot of press over on the Hardware forum and most of it is positive when coming from actual users. Some of the "experts" poo-poo'd the thing because "it's too small" and "it's too weird" etc. Plese keep us posted on your results.

Quarque,
I have had the LG LST-3410a for about a month but it is in for a firmware upgrade. I should get it back next week. Originally i had the Samsung LS-T150 and 2 RS double bow-ties in the attic over the garage and received pretty good results. I do not remember exactly what i received but then about a six months ago I moved to a RS Yagi in the attic over the main living area and it seemed like i lost ground, lots of pixel breakup. I am thinking of putting the Yagi outside on the chimney once the 3410 comes back. I have already removed it from the attic. I have a two story so I should get better results.

Again, thanks for the input.
Mike

Hi Quarque,
What does your topo software show for Bothell (15th Ave SE and 228th St SE - canyon park area)?

Thanks for the service!

Originally posted by RobbyD
Hi Quarque,
What does your topo software show for Bothell (15th Ave SE and 228th St SE - canyon park area)?

Thanks for the service!

Your situation looks marginal. There is a hill 1 mile to the SW that is partially blocking your LOS. Your reception will depend very much on how far off the ground you can get your antenna. A short mast on a 2-story house should give you a chance. If you are contemplating the purchase of equipment you might want to invest in a site survey - or borrow a friend's receiver and see what you can get.

Thanks Quarque!

I already have a 4228 on my roof on a short tripod mast and I can pick up PBS (KCTS) and WB (KTWB) very well. I can also pick up NBC, CBS and ABC but I get audio dropouts (video seems fine).

I use both a DISH 6000 receiver and an AccessDTV card in my PC. I was thinking of putting a telescopic pole on my roof to add maybe 20 more feet of height to the antenna. Your response confirms my suspicions - thanks.

Now I just need to figure out how to secure it properly with guy wires. Perhaps a professional installation is the smarter way to go. I'd like to be able to install a 2nd 4228 on the same mast and point it towards Fox (KCPQ) and run both antennas down along one feed.

Is this possible?

Originally posted by RobbyD
Thanks Quarque!

I already have a 4228 on my roof on a short tripod mast and I can pick up PBS (KCTS) and WB (KTWB) very well. I can also pick up NBC, CBS and ABC but I get audio dropouts (video seems fine).

I use both a DISH 6000 receiver and an AccessDTV card in my PC. I was thinking of putting a telescopic pole on my roof to add maybe 20 more feet of height to the antenna. Your response confirms my suspicions - thanks.

Now I just need to figure out how to secure it properly with guy wires. Perhaps a professional installation is the smarter way to go. I'd like to be able to install a 2nd 4228 on the same mast and point it towards Fox (KCPQ) and run both antennas down along one feed.

Is this possible?

It is possible. I am planning to do a similar thing to get FOX. I'm using a 4228 for everything except Fox right now. If you order a Channel Master Join-tenna for Channel 18 you'll be all set! (Channel Master part number: 0585-1 Ch.18) $25.34 delivered from Warrenelectronics.com. You need to actually call them because it is a special order part. Takes about 3-4weeks to receive.

Just got an email from Ron Diotte at KSTW. He says the upgrade is now looking more like September-October(ish). bummer...

How far apart are you planning to keep the 4228's on the mast? Does it matter when using the join-tenna?

Originally posted by RobbyD
How far apart are you planning to keep the 4228's on the mast? Does it matter when using the join-tenna?

With the Join-tenna, it is my understanding that it does NOT matter how close or far apart the two antennas are... The Join-tenna prevents any interferance between the two antennas by design.

In your case, all signals except channel 18 will be passed from your original 4228. On your second 4228, all signals except channel 18 will be blocked. The two, non-overlapping signals are combined into a singal coax.

I noticed that analog channel 2 was CBC. It came it very faint but I caught the station logo.

This is a channel I'd like to get for hockey season. Anyone know the details of where it's being broadcast from? Might be time for a big yagi...

Originally posted by RobbyD
I noticed that analog channel 2 was CBC. It came it very faint but I caught the station logo.

This is a channel I'd like to get for hockey season. Anyone know the details of where it's being broadcast from? Might be time for a big yagi...

Robby:
This is the analog CBC station from Vancouver, Canada.

Thanks for the info.

I called the engineering department of CBC in Vancouver. They tell me CBC is being transmitted from Mt. Seymor at 10Kw. He also gave me the cooridnates but I don't have the paper I wrote them down on handy.

They said that unlike the U.S., they are not being mandated for DTV broadcasts but are planning 3 DTV pilots early next year. One will be in Vancouver but it will likely only be 2Kw - although potentially they could increase it to 25Kw.

As of tonight, 5/5/04, I've noticed a drop in KCTS signal strength from mid-90% down to 0-15%. This has made my reception of the station go away completely. Is anybody else experiencing this? It might be a problem just for me, but I haven't changed anything.

The frequency I am trying to tune is 41.1.

Originally posted by dancook
As of tonight, 5/5/04, I've noticed a drop in KCTS signal strength from mid-90% down to 0-15%. This has made my reception of the station go away completely. Is anybody else experiencing this? It might be a problem just for me, but I haven't changed anything.

The frequency I am trying to tune is 41.1.

I'm not seeing any issues with KCTS tonight. The signal strength is in the upper 80s as usual.

dancook - I haven't noticed any drop in signal on KCTS. You may be picking up a new reflection or something.

Hey Quarque,

Could you possibly tell me what your topo software says about Bellevue, NE 35th St. and 148th Ave NE?

I'm pretty new in the HDTV game, and want to see if I even have a chance of reception before investing in a good antenna.

Thanks!


Ivan

Originally posted by Ivan H.
Hey Quarque,

Could you possibly tell me what your topo software says about Bellevue, NE 35th St. and 148th Ave NE?

I'm pretty new in the HDTV game, and want to see if I even have a chance of reception before investing in a good antenna.

Thanks!


Ivan
Ivan - you are in luck. You have only a slight hill to the west and that would easily be overcome with an antenna on the roof of even a 1-story house (or in the attic). You also have all the major towers within a narrow degree spread, so no rotor would be needed unless you want the eastside or Tacoma stations (Shopping, PAX, etc.). The LG series of receivers are getting good reviews in the Hardware forum but probably anything would work at your location. The Channel Master 4228 is among the favorites in antennas. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Quarque,
I'm near N Meadowdale Rd and 75th Pl W in Edmonds, but my house is
further up the hill than 75th Pl W. Can I get any HDTV signals from that
location? The address is 15915 74th Place West, but its a new lot and
may not be on any maps. I have a clear view to the south, at least to the
nearest hill about 1/4 mile away. Not sure if the line to Queen Anne
hill is open, or at what height a tower would need to be to see it.

just posting to be subscribed. hello all! :cool:

I'm at 22116 NE 27th place in Sammamish 98074.

Currently I am able to get KIRO beautifully via OTA on my roof, but nothing else. Here is the relavent info from Antennaweb:

yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC Seattle WA 251° 14.3 38
yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC Seattle WA 251° 14.2 48
yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS Seattle WA 251° 14.5 39
yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX Tacoma WA 242° 36.0 18

I have a lot of tall firs and cedars in my yard -- the DirecTV installer who put up the OTA antenna found it odd that I got KIRO but not the other channels. He felt it was probably the trees, but he did mention that "maybe a stronger antenna" would help. Any ideas? I tried a Silver Sensor and nothing came in at all.

Originally posted by CustomCastles
Quarque,
I'm near N Meadowdale Rd and 75th Pl W in Edmonds, but my house is
further up the hill than 75th Pl W. Can I get any HDTV signals from that
location? The address is 15915 74th Place West, but its a new lot and
may not be on any maps. I have a clear view to the south, at least to the
nearest hill about 1/4 mile away. Not sure if the line to Queen Anne
hill is open, or at what height a tower would need to be to see it.
If I understand you correctly, your house is between 75th and 74th. That puts you at an elevation of about 90 feet. To the south of you are a series of hills rising to 450 feet eventually. These block direct LOS to QA towers unless you put your antenna about 50 feet off the ground. However, many people have reported they get reception in situations similar to yours and this is due to a refraction of the signals as they go over the hills. So you might be OK with just a normal 10-foot mast on a 2-story house. If you are just starting out you might want to pay for a site evaluation from your rooftop. Obviously KCPQ in Bremerton won't be a problem for you but one station would not justify an entire HD setup for many people. If you do put up an antenna you will want a rotor to pull in KCPQ (or 2 antennas with a combiner). Let us know what happens if you go ahead - this adds to the database of knowledge about HD reception in our area.

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
just posting to be subscribed. hello all! :cool:
Hello Chris and welcome. What area do you live in and what is your reception like?

Originally posted by jsamans
I'm at 22116 NE 27th place in Sammamish 98074.

Currently I am able to get KIRO beautifully via OTA on my roof, but nothing else. Here is the relavent info from Antennaweb:

yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC Seattle WA 251° 14.3 38
yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC Seattle WA 251° 14.2 48
yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS Seattle WA 251° 14.5 39
yellow - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX Tacoma WA 242° 36.0 18

I have a lot of tall firs and cedars in my yard -- the DirecTV installer who put up the OTA antenna found it odd that I got KIRO but not the other channels. He felt it was probably the trees, but he did mention that "maybe a stronger antenna" would help. Any ideas? I tried a Silver Sensor and nothing came in at all.
Stranger things have happened! You are on a nice plateau and should have no problems from hills. So it is probably the trees. What antenna was pulling in KIRO? The favorite high-gain antenna around here is the Channel Master 4228 which is reportedly stocked by Fry's in Renton. You may also want to add a preamp if you have a long cable run to your receiver.

Originally posted by quarque
Stranger things have happened! You are on a nice plateau and should have no problems from hills. So it is probably the trees. What antenna was pulling in KIRO? The favorite high-gain antenna around here is the Channel Master 4228 which is reportedly stocked by Fry's in Renton. You may also want to add a preamp if you have a long cable run to your receiver.

The antenna is a Winegard GS-1000. I know it's probably the trees but it's frustrating to get one channel but not the others. I'll need to investigate that Channel Master 4228. Thanks!

Stranger things have happened! You are on a nice plateau and should have no problems from hills. So it is probably the trees. What antenna was pulling in KIRO? The favorite high-gain antenna around here is the Channel Master 4228 which is reportedly stocked by Fry's in Renton. You may also want to add a preamp if you have a long cable run to your receiver.

I went to Fry's today, and they only had the Terk's and the Zenith Silver Sensor (along with some small RCA ones). They didn't seem to have the Channel Master 4228.

Ivan, I've heard Fry's keeps them in a strange location, so you might have to hunt around and find someone who knows where they are or can look up inventory for you. However I've never been there myself.

I'd also recommend Warren Electronics on the internet. They carry the 4228 for $49 + shipping $15 + no tax. They've been reliable for me and have great prices.
Tom

Originally posted by TAB
Ivan, I've heard Fry's keeps them in a strange location, so you might have to hunt around and find someone who knows where they are or can look up inventory for you. However I've never been there myself.

I'd also recommend Warren Electronics on the internet. They carry the 4228 for $49 + shipping $15 + no tax. They've been reliable for me and have great prices.
Tom

Even slightly cheaper would be solidsignal.com. They charge $48.99 + 10.95 for UPS ground shipping. I ordered my 4228 from them on a Tuesday night and it arrived via UPS ground just 3 days later (on Friday)! It shipped from Salt Lake City, Utah so I guess SoidSignal has a distribution center there.

Originally posted by jsamans
The antenna is a Winegard GS-1000. I know it's probably the trees but it's frustrating to get one channel but not the others. I'll need to investigate that Channel Master 4228. Thanks!
The GS-1000 is a "bi-directional" design geared towards analog UHF for RV's. Since it can pick up signals from both sides it will pick up reflections which is bad for digital receivers. What you want for digital is a very directional antenna (ignores signals from all sides except a narrow area on the front). Winegard claims a very high gain figure for the GS-1000 but I think that is mostly due to the amplifier. Again, for digital, an amplifier should be used as a last resort and only to overcome loss in the downfeed cable to the receiver. Amplifying digital signals does not automatically improve anything because you are boosting the noise as much as the signal - not to mention adding more noise from the amplifier itself. The basic rule of antennas is "more metal = more signal" - so larger antennas generally produce more usable signal without amplifiers. The 4228 has 8 bowties arranged to reinforce each other to provide high gain with directionality at the same time. Fry's does carry the 4228 but you have to hunt for it as several posters have mentioned previously. The Solid Signal deal may actually be cheaper than Fry's when you consider tax.

And when you mount an antenna you should not do a "permanent" install the first time out. You may have to try 5-10 different locations and heights to find the "sweet spot" for your location. The trees may make this a little tricky to find.

Originally posted by quarque
The GS-1000 is a "bi-directional" design geared towards analog UHF for RV's. Since it can pick up signals from both sides it will pick up reflections which is bad for digital receivers. What you want for digital is a very directional antenna (ignores signals from all sides except a narrow area on the front). Winegard claims a very high gain figure for the GS-1000 but I think that is mostly due to the amplifier. Again, for digital, an amplifier should be used as a last resort and only to overcome loss in the downfeed cable to the receiver. Amplifying digital signals does not automatically improve anything because you are boosting the noise as much as the signal - not to mention adding more noise from the amplifier itself. The basic rule of antennas is "more metal = more signal" - so larger antennas generally produce more usable signal without amplifiers. The 4228 has 8 bowties arranged to reinforce each other to provide high gain with directionality at the same time. Fry's does carry the 4228 but you have to hunt for it as several posters have mentioned previously. The Solid Signal deal may actually be cheaper than Fry's when you consider tax.

And when you mount an antenna you should not do a "permanent" install the first time out. You may have to try 5-10 different locations and heights to find the "sweet spot" for your location. The trees may make this a little tricky to find.

Thanks for all the great info! First step for me is to get a ladder (which I need to get to clean the gutters anyway). Now that I think of it, this could work out well. Cleaning the gutters and getting my wife some of her network shows in HD...at this rate she'll only be mad at me for buying the new TV for a few more months :D

Originally posted by quarque
If I understand you correctly, your house is between 75th and 74th. That puts you at an elevation of about 90 feet. To the south of you are a series of hills rising to 450 feet eventually. These block direct LOS to QA towers unless you put your antenna about 50 feet off the ground. However, many people have reported they get reception in situations similar to yours and this is due to a refraction of the signals as they go over the hills. So you might be OK with just a normal 10-foot mast on a 2-story house.

The peak of my roof is exactly 140.35 feet above sea level. It needed to stay below 140.42 and we made it by .07 feet. Edmonds is pretty sticky about the 25 ft height limit. So at 150 feet above sea level I might get a signal. I'll post an update when I get more info. Thanks for the help.

New user here. I just got my HDTV decoder and tried using a cheap little UHF indoor antenna and had some success with channels 4, 5, and 7. Thinking of picking up the Silver Sensor and trying it out. Any advice, obsticles from my location?

I'm on Edmonds Ave SE in Renton, WA 98056. Thanks.

Originally posted by bknows
New user here. I just got my HDTV decoder and tried using a cheap little UHF indoor antenna and had some success with channels 4, 5, and 7. Thinking of picking up the Silver Sensor and trying it out. Any advice, obsticles from my location?

I'm on Edmonds Ave SE in Renton, WA 98056. Thanks.

You probably need to give a nearby cross street for quarque to do an adequate calculation.

I am on the other hill south of you (Renton, 98058) near the Fairwood shopping centers. I have a Silver Sensor that you could try before you buy if you want. I bought it, tried it, and it did not help me. An inexpensive UHF antenna on my roof proved to be the trick for me.

Send me a PM (by clicking on the PM button just above my post) if you are interested. My father lives on your hill (on Monroe Ave.) and I could drop the antenna off on my way to visit him.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
You probably need to give a nearby cross street for quarque to do an adequate calculation.

I am on the other hill south of you (Renton, 98058) near the Fairwood shopping centers. I have a Silver Sensor that you could try before you buy if you want. I bought it, tried it, and it did not help me. An inexpensive UHF antenna on my roof proved to be the trick for me.

Send me a PM (by clicking on the PM button just above my post) if you are interested. My father lives on your hill (on Monroe Ave.) and I could drop the antenna off on my way to visit him.

Edmonds Ave Se, Renton, WA 98056. Nearest cross street would be NE 3rd St. (cemetary road near Renton Technical College)

Originally posted by CustomCastles
The peak of my roof is exactly 140.35 feet above sea level. It needed to stay below 140.42 and we made it by .07 feet. Edmonds is pretty sticky about the 25 ft height limit. So at 150 feet above sea level I might get a signal. I'll post an update when I get more info. Thanks for the help.

OK, so you're further up the hill than I thought (or you have a really tall house :D ). At 140 feet you should be able to get some signal. I would test without a mast to see how it looks. You can always add a mast later.

Originally posted by bknows
Edmonds Ave Se, Renton, WA 98056. Nearest cross street would be NE 3rd St. (cemetary road near Renton Technical College)

You have a very slight hill to the NW but it would easily be overcome by putting your antenna up 15 feet or more from the ground. You will have much better luck with a roof installation than an indoor or attic installation. But there is no harm in trying your easiest options first.

Went down to Fry's last night and saw some channel master antennas for 25 and up. I think the models were the 3016-18. Has anyone had any experience with these? The only difference that I noticed between them was the range, 30miles to 60miles.

Here is the antennaweb info from my house:

KTWB-DT 310° 11.0miles
KSTW-DT 310° 10.9
KONG-DT 305° 13.0
KWDK-DT 62° 10.3
KWPX-DT 62° 10.3
KOMO-DT 305° 13.0
KING-DT 305° 13.0
KIRO-DT 305° 13.2
KCTS-DT 310° 11.0

There's more channels, but I only want to get reception from the major channels.

Wrong forum sorry

Originally posted by bknows
Went down to Fry's last night and saw some channel master antennas for 25 and up. I think the models were the 3016-18. Has anyone had any experience with these? The only difference that I noticed between them was the range, 30miles to 60miles.


Yes these will work and worth a try if you can't find a 4228. They are not as directional as the 4228 but have the advantage of being UHF/VHF/FM capable if you're planning to share the antenna with analog sets as well.

I have a general question: if I buy an antenna at a place like Fry’s or Best Buy, would I be able to return it if it didn’t work out for me? I’m talking about a smaller antenna like a Zenith Silver Sensor, rather than a Channel Master 4228. I just want to see what my luck is with as little financial risk as possible. :)


Ivan

Last year I purchased a Sony WEGA HD set but never set up HD due to my DirectTIVO addition (Live TV? Me never!)

Well next week I should be getting my HD-TIVO and now its time to deal with HD Locals, I went to AntennaWeb (13410 NE 184th PL, Woodinville) and they tell me:

yellow - uhf KTWB-DT 22.1 WB SEATTLE WA 195° 12.1 25
yellow - uhf KSTW-DT 36.1 UPN TACOMA WA 195° 12.1 36
yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42 DAY TACOMA WA 06-04 134° 19.9 42
yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC Seattle WA 206° 12.5 48
yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS Seattle WA 195° 12.1 41
green - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 PAX Bellevue WA 134° 19.9 32
red - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 134° 19.9 50
red - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS Seattle WA 207° 12.6 39
red - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC Seattle WA 206° 12.6 38
red - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 206° 12.5 31
violet - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX Tacoma WA 225° 33.4 18
violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 134° 19.9 44

I would love to get it all but hey we cant have everthing :), I guess we watch WB, UPN, ABC, NBC. CBS and FOX the most.

With the exception of FOX I think I may be OK, I borrowed a friends Radio Shack Bow Tie and could get PBS and UPN at about 66 which wasnt enough to really watch without pixelation.

I went to Fry's a couple times trying to get a CM 4228 but they never had them in, so before I go order on-line I have a few questions for you pros.

1. Is there a seattle place that carries the cm4228?
2. Is there a elevation problem here? will I need a mast?
3. Is a attic install out? this is my preference.
4. Is the 4228 the right choice for me?
5. Any other recomedations or gotchas I should take into consideration??

Thanks in advance!

Hi fr3d,

I can answer a couple of your questions:

1. Yes, you can buy the CM4228 at Pringles (http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypResults.py?stx=pringles&stp=a&tab=B2C&city=Everett&state=WA&uzip=98201&country=us&msa=7600&slt=47.977940&sln=-122.201477&cs=4) in Everett although it's going to be a lot more expensive than ordering it from SolidSignal.com (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Antennas%20TV&PROD=ANC4228).

2. Quarque will have to answer your second question.

3. Yes, many people have installed the 4228 in their attic although it will probably require you to disassemble it (drill out rivets and then "rebuild" it in the attic) because it is so large. Here are a couple photos (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1875085#post1875085)of Doug Swallow's attic installation of a 4228 (with rotator).

4. The 4228 is generally considered the highest gain UHF only antenna available. You'll need more gain if you install in the attic (because you'll lose some gain BECAUSE its in the attic).

5. Some people have had good experience with the Winegard Square Shooter. Its MUCH smaller than the 4228 and many people are comfortable installing it outside because it doesn't look as "ugly" as the 4228. If you are considering the attic install for your own aesthetic reasons, I can understand. If you are planning the attic because you're afraid of what your home owner's association will say, you probably have the high ground (legally) because of the FCC's ruling on this matter. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1695289#post1695289)

jsamans:
I tried the Winegard GS-1000 and it sure useless antenna. The 4228 sure beat it by a mile.

fr3d quoted: I went to Fry's a couple times trying to get a CM 4228 but they never had them in, so before I go order on-line I have a few questions for you pros.

Be sure your looking in the front of the store, to the right of the entrance. The TV guys at the back don't know they exist.
(i'll stop by and check today just for grins and window shopping :D)

Originally posted by fr3d

2. Is there a elevation problem here? will I need a mast?
3. Is a attic install out? this is my preference.
4. Is the 4228 the right choice for me?
5. Any other recomedations or gotchas I should take into consideration??

Thanks in advance!
Yes, yes, yes and yes. You have a hill to the SW that is blocking line-of-site to QA, CH and Bremerton. To get 'clear' line of site you would need about a 50 foot mast. There will be some refraction of signal as it goes over the hill so you might get by with maybe 25 feet on top of a 2-story house. Hard to say for sure. The 4228 is usually the best choice but in your case I'm not sure any antenna will work well. Attic installation is definitely out since it cuts signal levels. You situation in a word is "ugly". However, some people have had success picking up reflected signals to get around hills or buildings. The Winegard Square Shooter is the best at that job. You can either do a lot of trial and error or hire a pro to evaluate your location. Good luck.

Originally posted by Ivan H.
I have a general question: if I buy an antenna at a place like Fry’s or Best Buy, would I be able to return it if it didn’t work out for me? I’m talking about a smaller antenna like a Zenith Silver Sensor, rather than a Channel Master 4228. I just want to see what my luck is with as little financial risk as possible. :)


Ivan
I know Radio Shack is good about returns - not sure about others. I would just call the stores you're interested in and ask them what their policy is on antenna returns.

Frys has Channel Masters but NOT 4228's

Gee, maybe I should start stocking some in my garage :D :D :D

Originally posted by quarque
Yes, yes, yes and yes. You have a hill to the SW that is blocking line-of-site to QA, CH and Bremerton. To get 'clear' line of site you would need about a 50 foot mast. There will be some refraction of signal as it goes over the hill so you might get by with maybe 25 feet on top of a 2-story house. Hard to say for sure. The 4228 is usually the best choice but in your case I'm not sure any antenna will work well. Attic installation is definitely out since it cuts signal levels. You situation in a word is "ugly". However, some people have had success picking up reflected signals to get around hills or buildings. The Winegard Square Shooter is the best at that job. You can either do a lot of trial and error or hire a pro to evaluate your location. Good luck.

OUCH, now that really bums me out...

Is there a place localy that caries the 4228 or the Winegard Square Shooter that has a good return policy? 50 ft is certanly out unless I put it up in a tree and run a line to the house somehow. Are there any afordable places that do this type of install?

I guess I was too optimistic :|

Originally posted by fr3d
OUCH, now that really bums me out...

Is there a place localy that caries the 4228 or the Winegard Square Shooter that has a good return policy? 50 ft is certanly out unless I put it up in a tree and run a line to the house somehow. Are there any afordable places that do this type of install?

I guess I was too optimistic :|

Hi fr3d,

Quarque gave me the contact info for Dan "The antenna man" recently. I've heard he can do a site survey. I've been meaning to call him out to my house to see if I can do any better than my current setup (but haven't yet). Here's his contact info:

Dan the antenna man
aka Kurts Inc.
425-874-7443
206-794-3993

Regarding your question about a local retailer of the CM4228, the only one I know of is Pringle's but I don't know if they allow returns on previously installed antennas.

Originally posted by subspace
Hi fr3d,

Quarque gave me the contact info for Dan "The antenna man" recently. I've heard he can do a site survey. I've been meaning to call him out to my house to see if I can do any better than my current setup (but haven't yet). Here's his contact info:

Dan the antenna man
aka Kurts Inc.
425-874-7443
206-794-3993

Regarding your question about a local retailer of the CM4228, the only one I know of is Pringle's but I don't know if they allow returns on previously installed antennas.

Thanks everyone...

fr3d, I have a 4228 approx 110' up a Douglas Fir. It was a tough job physically for a 64 year old man, but kind of fun doing it actually. With the antenna on my roof I could not get any of the Capital hill stations. They all come in fine now, and I get KBTC in Tacoma almost all of the time. Fortunately, I didn't need a rotator although I think if I had to I could install one. There are web sites with information on the sport of tree climbing. New Tribe in Oregon sells equipment and a couple of basic information manuals.

I just hope I still get all of the stations OK when I get my HR10 250 in a couple of days.

Al

Wow Al, that's quite a feat! I'm curious as to how you got the antenna up the tree. I know a guy who tried this many years ago and his big problem was not climbing the tree, it was hauling the antenna up. Because of all the branches he kept getting tangled up - took about 3 hours to do the whole job. And he said "never again" - which I took to mean it was "not fun".

Al: I just bought a home in Puyallup that is in the middle of a forest of doug firs like you describe and I strongly suspect my only chance of OTA HDTV reception will be doing exactly what you did. I would love to hear more about how you accomplished this incredible feat which is a huge task at ANY age!!

Al you are "the man", I now have no excuses of giving it a shot myself!!

The first thing I did was install a static climbing line near the top of the tree a little above where I planned to attach the antenna. I did this by first getting the line over a lower branch, using the line to climb up to that branch, and then climbing to the top using the branches and double lanyards for safety. There was no point in the climb when I was not attached to the tree and could have fallen more than a few feet. Anyway, after a couple of days resting up I used the climbing line and prussic loops with prussic knots on the climbing line to get up into the lower branches again and then pulled the antenna, which was also attached to the climbing line with a prussic loop, up into the lower branches. After than it was just a matter of climbing up a branch at a time and then pulling the antenna up behind me and slipping the prussic knot up again. I did have to realign the bow ties on the antenna a bit when I got it to the top. I used some handles with concave outer surfaces that I bought at Home Depot to attach a RS pole to the tree, and then attached the antenna to that pole. I actually got it installed a couple of months ago. and all together I climbed the tree 5 or 6 times hooking up the cables, grounding wire, replacing the preamp which turned out to be faulty, and painting camouflage paint on the antenna. It's also nice not having an antenna on my roof anymore, though my wife never complained about it.

Al

Originally posted by Al_B
all together I climbed the tree 5 or 6 times hooking up the cables, grounding wire, replacing the preamp which turned out to be faulty, and painting camouflage paint on the antenna.
I think I might apply the camoflage paint while the antenna was still on the ground, but that's just me :D Otherwise, excellent guide! I have some trees that are giving me grief, this might be better than putting the cm 4228 on my roof (I think my wife would definitely complain).

You got me curious. How is your reception affected by the tree swaying in the wind. I know the firs around my place really sway when the wind blows.

Updated 5/16 after reaiming antenna to address multipath issue with KIRO-DT ...

Thanks to advice from folks here, I recently installed a Winegard SquareShooter on my house in Mill Creek (near 151st St. SE and 16th Ave SE), which is 17 miles from Queen Anne and Capital Hill and 35 miles from Bremerton.

I just received my first HiDef receiver, the new HR10-250 DirectTivo (very nice! -- see note below if you're in this area and waiting for one), and I'm pleased to report that the SquareShooter seems to be performing very nicely. I'm not using a preamp.

Here are the readings I get for the key Seattle stations. The first number is the strength I measured with an HP/Agilent Spectrum Analyzer, the second number is the reading from the HR10-250 OTA meter.

KOMO-DT, Channel 38, -68dBm, 86-88, Looks great.
KING-DT, Channel 48, -68dBm, 89-90, Looks great.
KIRO-DT, Channel 39, -68dBm, 89-90, Looks great.
KCTS-DT, Channel 41, -71dBm, 80-90, Looks great.
KSTW-DT, Channel 36, -93dBm, 0-20, Not good.
KCPQ-DT, Channel 18, -85dBm, 90-92, Looks great.
KONG-DT, Channel 31, -78dBm, 90-91, Looks great.
KTWB-DT, Channel 25, -73dBm, 79-81, Looks great.

I initially discovered an issue with KIRO-DT where, even though the signal seemed plenty strong, I was getting audio/video breakups and pixelation. After suggestions from folks in this forum I first tried attenuating the signal a bit using a 2-way splitter (-4db attenuation), but that didn't help. The problem seemed to be a multipath issue that only affected KIRO-DT on Channel 39. I think I fixed it by re-aiming the antenna more towards Bremerton (220-deg) instead of directly towards Queen Anne/Capitol Hill. I also rotated the face of the SquareShooter by 90-deg, and that seemed to help. I'll need to observe awhile longer to be sure. One side effect of adding the splitter was to knock out what little reception of KSTW-DT that I had, so hopefully they'll up their power level soon.


NOTE: If you're in the Seattle area waiting for a new HR10-250, I have an "extra" on its way from BestBuy. I got tired of waiting on various waiting lists and grabbed a unit from Circuit City during their brief availability windows. My BestBuy unit is due to arrive on Wednesday, May 19, and I'm planning to return it to the BestBuy in Lynnwood. If somebody wants to meet me there, it can be yours.

jsamans, it hadn't occured to me to paint the antenna until I noticed that it was more visible than I liked with the sun shining on it. There were a lot of things that I found I could have improved on to make the job easier.

Mervman, I haven't really noticed much problem with the wind blowing. My guess is that having trees blow around in the signal path in front of an antenna is much more of a problem.

Al

A couple of questions for the local experts:

1. What's up with the guide data for KCPQ and KTWB? They each show the other's channels on one of the sub-channels, yet both sub-channels (e.g. 13-1 and 13-2) are broadcasting the same program.

2. When will KSTW up their power? I'd love to record Star Trek Enterprise in HiDef, but can't do it now. [/B][/QUOTE]

1. For a period of time, each transmitter was broadcasting both channels. KCPQ-DT on real channel 18 was providing 18-1 for KCPQ and 18-2 for KTWB. Likewise, KTWB was providing on real channel 25, 25-1 KTWB and 25-2 KCPQ. Both stations are owned by Tribune. The idea was expanded coverage areas since the KCPQ transmitter is on Gold Mountain near Bremerton and the KTWB transmitter is on Capitol Hill in seattle. Apparently the networks made them stop, which is better for HDTV bandwidth, but worse for folks who could receive one but not the other.

2. Earlier in this thread quarque reported hearing from Ron Diotte, engineer at KSTW, that they expect to up their power and make their radiation pattern more omnidirectional in August this year (hope I am remebering that right). I am a lucky one falling within their target footprint toward Tacome, their city of license, even though their transmitter is on Capitol Hill in Seattle.

I don't know how directional the SquareShooter is, but with my cheap, rooftop-mounted UHF-only yagi, I pickup stations from Gold Mountain, Seattle and Tiger Mountain. This is a very wide range of directions and I was surprised to get anything from Tiger Mountain. I don't watch PAX or the other channels from there OTA since none are HD and they mostly don't interest me.

I am wondering if you could split the difference and point your antenna equi-distant from Capitol Hill and Gold Mountain and still get usable reception on all but Tiger Mountain. Then you could reliably see Fox HD football this fall.

Let us know how you do. Good luck.

Originally posted by litzdog911
. . .
A couple of questions for the local experts:

1. What's up with the guide data for KCPQ and KTWB? They each show the other's channels on one of the sub-channels, yet both sub-channels (e.g. 13-1 and 13-2) are broadcasting the same program.

2. When will KSTW up their power? I'd love to record Star Trek Enterprise in HiDef, but can't do it now.
. . .

Before 1/1/04 KCPQ and KTWB were transmitting each other's signals on their "home" tower (CH and Bremerton). This was halted on 1/1 because of some legal entanglement with program providers or their advertisers because of the coverage area not being what was assumed earlier (i.e. mo $money$). They are still negotiating to resume this cross-coverage feature. No estimate as to whether or when it will resume.

KSTW is planning on a major revamp in Sept-Oct time frame. This should boost power and even out the radiation pattern as well.

Glad to hear the SqS worked out for you. It has a beamwidth of about 60 degrees so your results are about as expected. Have you tried more than one location to see if the problem stations come in any better?

Originally posted by Al_B
The first thing I did was install a static climbing line near the top of the tree a little above where I planned to attach the antenna. I did this by first getting the line over a lower branch, using the line to climb up to that branch, and then climbing to the top using the branches and double lanyards for safety. There was no point in the climb when I was not attached to the tree and could have fallen more than a few feet. Anyway, after a couple of days resting up I used the climbing line and prussic loops with prussic knots on the climbing line to get up into the lower branches again and then pulled the antenna, which was also attached to the climbing line with a prussic loop, up into the lower branches. After than it was just a matter of climbing up a branch at a time and then pulling the antenna up behind me and slipping the prussic knot up again. I did have to realign the bow ties on the antenna a bit when I got it to the top. I used some handles with concave outer surfaces that I bought at Home Depot to attach a RS pole to the tree, and then attached the antenna to that pole. I actually got it installed a couple of months ago. and all together I climbed the tree 5 or 6 times hooking up the cables, grounding wire, replacing the preamp which turned out to be faulty, and painting camouflage paint on the antenna. It's also nice not having an antenna on my roof anymore, though my wife never complained about it.

Al

Al - thanks for the details. You must be in great shape because I'd be lucky to make it up the tree even once! I hope if anyone decides to try this they learn how to do it safely first. You obviously knew or learned about climbing before you tackled it. I wonder if there are any pro's who do this for a fee?

Hi Larry,

Of course there are an awful lot of stuff that I have not included, including as I alluded to earlier the various mistakes I made. One of those was trying to pull up the RG6 and the grounding wire at the same time and getting them incredibly tangled with each other and with a length of light rope I had attached to a carabiner so that I could pull the climbing line down. Reading a couple of manuals and getting one antenna up a tree sure doesn't make me an expert, and I am really afraid of being seen as giving advice on the subject.

I got my equipment at REI in Lynnwood with help and advice from Ryan Spivey. He is a great guy and lives over in Snohomish. I never asked him if he would be interested in installing antennas for people, but he did mention that he has done climbing jobs for extra money. It's possible that he could be interested. I think it would be an all day job even for an experienced climber, and that would not include some of the other stuff that needs to be done like digging a trench for conduit to get the RG6 to the house and pounding in the grounding rod.

Al

[iI don't know how directional the SquareShooter is, but with my cheap, rooftop-mounted UHF-only yagi, I pickup stations from Gold Mountain, Seattle and Tiger Mountain. This is a very wide range of directions and I was surprised to get anything from Tiger Mountain. I don't watch PAX or the other channels from there OTA since none are HD and they mostly don't interest me.

I am wondering if you could split the difference and point your antenna equi-distant from Capitol Hill and Gold Mountain and still get usable reception on all but Tiger Mountain. . [/B]

I'm in the same boat, but I get best results aiming more toward the towers downtown (I'm also to the south). I'm probably aiming inbetween the Capitol Hill and Queen Ann towers, but the Bremerton (13) comes in fine even though I'm 90 degrees off.

Glad to hear 11 is going to raise it's power. I get it okay, but it's my weakest station.

Originally posted by quarque
Before 1/1/04 KCPQ and KTWB were transmitting each other's signals on their "home" tower (CH and Bremerton). This was halted on 1/1 because of some legal entanglement with program providers or their advertisers because of the coverage area not being what was assumed earlier (i.e. mo $money$). They are still negotiating to resume this cross-coverage feature. No estimate as to whether or when it will resume.

KSTW is planning on a major revamp in Sept-Oct time frame. This should boost power and even out the radiation pattern as well.

Glad to hear the SqS worked out for you. It has a beamwidth of about 60 degrees so your results are about as expected. Have you tried more than one location to see if the problem stations come in any better?

Budget_HT and Quarque:

Thanks for the clarification!

Now that I've had even more time to record and watch some local OTA DTV channels, I discovered that sometimes I'm getting brief pixelation and audio dropouts on KIRO-DT (Ch 39) every 5-10 minutes. What seems odd is that KOMO-DT (Ch 38) is rock solid with no problems, and they're broadcast from virtually the same location with similar power levels.

I think it may be a multipath issue. I noticed that the signal meter in my HR10-250 HD DirectTivo "bounces" between 75-90 on KIRO-DT, yet is quite steady between 85-90 on KOMO-DT. Does this sound like a multipath issue? Or could the signal actually be a bit too strong causing some overloading?

Guess I'll pull out the ladder this weekend and play with the aim a bit. I'd sure like to make this antenna work for me .... it's a great size and form factor and I'd hate to have to install something bigger and more directional.

Thanks for any advice anyone can offer.

Originally posted by litzdog911
I think it may be a multipath issue. I noticed that the signal meter in my HR10-250 HD DirectTivo "bounces" between 75-90 on KIRO-DT, yet is quite steady between 85-90 on KOMO-DT. Does this sound like a multipath issue? Or could the signal actually be a bit too strong causing some overloading?

My guess it it could be either, but an attenuator could help with both. Attenuation could make the multi-path signal too weak to cause problems.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Budget_HT and Quarque:

Thanks for the clarification!

Now that I've had even more time to record and watch some local OTA DTV channels, I discovered that sometimes I'm getting brief pixelation and audio dropouts on KIRO-DT (Ch 39) every 5-10 minutes. What seems odd is that KOMO-DT (Ch 38) is rock solid with no problems, and they're broadcast from virtually the same location with similar power levels.

I think it may be a multipath issue. I noticed that the signal meter in my HR10-250 HD DirectTivo "bounces" between 75-90 on KIRO-DT, yet is quite steady between 85-90 on KOMO-DT. Does this sound like a multipath issue? Or could the signal actually be a bit too strong causing some overloading?

Guess I'll pull out the ladder this weekend and play with the aim a bit. I'd sure like to make this antenna work for me .... it's a great size and form factor and I'd hate to have to install something bigger and more directional.

Thanks for any advice anyone can offer.

Well, simply installing a 2-way splitter seems to have solved my KIRO-DT issues. I haven't seen any breakups in over two hours now, but right now the winds are calm and that may make a difference.

I've updated my original post with the new signal strength readings. Mostly they seem much steadier and perhaps 1-2pts lower, but again the winds are calm right now. The splitter did knock down KSTW-DT's signal enough that I can't receive anything anymore, but other than Star Trek Enterprise I don't watch anything there anyway.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the splitter solved the problem!


EDIT: NOPE, a splitter didn't solve my KIRO-DT problems. See later posts ....

Originally posted by litzdog911

I think it may be a multipath issue. I noticed that the signal meter in my HR10-250 HD DirectTivo "bounces" between 75-90 on KIRO-DT, yet is quite steady between 85-90 on KOMO-DT. Does this sound like a multipath issue? Or could the signal actually be a bit too strong causing some overloading?

Thanks for any advice anyone can offer.
Since the SqS is fairly low gain I would doubt you are getting overload. Typically when one sees a signal level bounce on a regular basis it is multipath. You might try some different locations since even 1 foot of change can make a difference with reflections.

Originally posted by Al_B
Hi Larry,

Of course there are an awful lot of stuff that I have not included, including as I alluded to earlier the various mistakes I made. One of those was trying to pull up the RG6 and the grounding wire at the same time and getting them incredibly tangled with each other and with a length of light rope I had attached to a carabiner so that I could pull the climbing line down. Reading a couple of manuals and getting one antenna up a tree sure doesn't make me an expert, and I am really afraid of being seen as giving advice on the subject.

I got my equipment at REI in Lynnwood with help and advice from Ryan Spivey. He is a great guy and lives over in Snohomish. I never asked him if he would be interested in installing antennas for people, but he did mention that he has done climbing jobs for extra money. It's possible that he could be interested. I think it would be an all day job even for an experienced climber, and that would not include some of the other stuff that needs to be done like digging a trench for conduit to get the RG6 to the house and pounding in the grounding rod.

Al
So I guess we won't be coming over for climbing school at your house. :D Your contact at REI is probably the best advice. From what I've seen most people don't know squat about climbing. The last thing we want is an injured AVS member. Your experience though, could be used by an experienced climber since they don't generally put antennas in trees. Did REI try to discourage you at all?

Larry

Larry, I told Ryan exactly what I wanted to do, and told him how I figured I would do it. He gave me advice on ropes and other equipment and even made a copy of a diagram in a book he knew of that showed how to make up the prussic foot sling and the seat-harness sling. He was also kind enough to say that he was often doubtful about some of the people he sold equipment to, but that he thought I understood the basic precepts well enough to do the job safely. I'm certainly thankful he turned out to be right.

Al

Originally posted by litzdog911
Well, simply installing a 2-way splitter seems to have solved my KIRO-DT issues. I haven't seen any breakups in over two hours now, but right now the winds are calm and that may make a difference.

I've updated my original post with the new signal strength readings. Mostly they seem much steadier and perhaps 1-2pts lower, but again the winds are calm right now. The splitter did knock down KSTW-DT's signal enough that I can't receive anything anymore, but other than Star Trek Enterprise I don't watch anything there anyway.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the splitter solved the problem!

Well, it was too good to be true .... simply installing a signal splitter did not solve my KIRO-DT reception problem. Even though it seemed to be great all day, this evening when I checked it was messed up worse than the past couple of evenings. It was so bad that the receiver barely could lock to the signal, and signal meter was bouncing between 0-50. I tried adding more attenuation by serially connecting three splitters (-15 dB), but that didn't help.

What's still very puzzling to me is that all of the other key stations (except for KSTW, of course) come in solidly with no dropouts -- steady signals between 80-90. It's just KIRO-DT that's having issues. And it seemed great all day today. The HR10-250 Tivo recorder came in very handy since I could record a few hours, then scan through the recording looking for signal breakups. I never saw any this afternoon. Yet this evening it was a mess.

Could something be up with KIRO's transmitter? Anyone else have issues with KIRO-DT last night?

I'll be checking it again this morning and will probably pull out the ladder to try moving the antenna around. If it works great all day and is messed up again in the evening I'll be even more puzzled!

Maybe it's time to call Dan the Antenna Man!

Originally posted by quarque
Since the SqS is fairly low gain I would doubt you are getting overload. Typically when one sees a signal level bounce on a regular basis it is multipath. You might try some different locations since even 1 foot of change can make a difference with reflections.

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. The SqS has only 4dB of gain, and I'm 17 miles from the Seattle transmitters, so I doubt it's overloading.

What's puzzling me is this .... if it's multipath, why would only KIRO-DT on Channel 39 be affected while KOMO-DT on Channel 38 comes in rock solid? And, as I noted in my previous post, all day today KIRO-DT was great. I never saw a glitch. Then this evening when I checked it was totally messed up even worse that last night.

Maybe there's something up with KIRO's transmission pattern, or are they currently not at full power during certain hours?

Originally posted by litzdog911
Yeah, that's what I thought, too. The SqS has only 4dB of gain, and I'm 17 miles from the Seattle transmitters, so I doubt it's overloading.

What's puzzling me is this .... if it's multipath, why would only KIRO-DT on Channel 39 be affected while KOMO-DT on Channel 38 comes in rock solid? And, as I noted in my previous post, all day today KIRO-DT was great. I never saw a glitch. Then this evening when I checked it was totally messed up even worse that last night.

Maybe there's something up with KIRO's transmission pattern, or are they currently not at full power during certain hours?
KIRO, KOMO and KING towers are not in exactly the same location and also not at the same elevation. This is enough to cause slight variations in reflected signals. The current location of your antenna may just be in one of the spots that does not favor KIRO. I would try different locations and heights since those are two of the main variables in the equation. Your situation is common and most people ended up solving it by experimenting with location changes. KIRO's radiation pattern covers everything well except to the west - so that is not your problem. Since KIRO has been a problem for you for a while I'm pretty sure it is not their transmission. If it were there would be a flurry of AVS messages about it.

Originally posted by quarque
KIRO, KOMO and KING towers are not in exactly the same location and also not at the same elevation. This is enough to cause slight variations in reflected signals. The current location of your antenna may just be in one of the spots that does not favor KIRO. I would try different locations and heights since those are two of the main variables in the equation. Your situation is common and most people ended up solving it by experimenting with location changes. KIRO's radiation pattern covers everything well except to the west - so that is not your problem. Since KIRO has been a problem for you for a while I'm pretty sure it is not their transmission. If it were there would be a flurry of AVS messages about it.

Yep, I think you were right. It's clearly a multipath issue that seemed to affect only KIRO-DT. This afternoon I re-aimed the antenna (more towards Bremerton) and also rotated the face of the SqS antenna by 90-deg. I think that did the trick. I now seem to have steady signals in the 80's on all the key channels (except KSTW-DT, of course). I Tivo'd some of the Manson movie "Helter Skelter" on KIRO-DT and never saw any problems.

It seems that the SqS actually has a rather broad front plane and isn't quite as directional as the polar patterns would suggest ... at least from 17 miles away. I was surprised at how little my signal strengths changed even with broad sweeps of the antenna from SE to SW.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I won't have to pull out the ladder again for a while!

EDIT: NOPE, this didn't solve it either. Still get occasional breakups on KIRO-DT. See later posts ....

Originally posted by litzdog911
Yep, I think you were right. It's clearly a multipath issue that seemed to affect only KIRO-DT. This afternoon I re-aimed the antenna (more towards Bremerton) and also rotated the face of the SqS antenna by 90-deg. I think that did the trick. I now seem to have steady signals in the 80's on all the key channels (except KSTW-DT, of course). I Tivo'd some of the Manson movie "Helter Skelter" on KIRO-DT and never saw any problems.

It seems that the SqS actually has a rather broad front plane and isn't quite as directional as the polar patterns would suggest ... at least from 17 miles away. I was surprised at how little my signal strengths changed even with broad sweeps of the antenna from SE to SW.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I won't have to pull out the ladder again for a while!
Hmmmm, rotating the SqS 90 degrees has not been mentioned in any of the forums that I know of. Interesting to see if that is really the trick. The beamwidth is spec'd at 60 degrees but I would believe 90 degrees is more like the actual useful width if towers are not too far away.

Originally posted by quarque
Hmmmm, rotating the SqS 90 degrees has not been mentioned in any of the forums that I know of. Interesting to see if that is really the trick. The beamwidth is spec'd at 60 degrees but I would believe 90 degrees is more like the actual useful width if towers are not too far away.

Well, KIRO-DT was better this evening, but still had several breakups and audio dropouts during CSI:Miami. The signal meter showed a steady 91-92 when I checked after CSI.

I think the beamwidth is simply too broad and multipath is my enemy. I may try increasing my antenna height somewhat, or simply try a different antenna. I really like the esthetics of the SquareShooter, but it's just not working for KIRO-DT at my house.

FWIW, I heard 3 seperate 1/2 second audio cutouts during the first half of CSI:M also. No breakups however, and my signal is 96-100. Maybe the audio part was on their end?

Originally posted by litzdog911
Well, KIRO-DT was better this evening, but still had several breakups and audio dropouts during CSI:Miami. The signal meter showed a steady 91-92 when I checked after CSI.

I think the beamwidth is simply too broad and multipath is my enemy. I may try increasing my antenna height somewhat, or simply try a different antenna. I really like the esthetics of the SquareShooter, but it's just not working for KIRO-DT at my house.

In reviewing the FCC database, I see that KIRO-DT applied in March 2004 to increase their power from 603kW to 1000kW. Does anybody know if they've done this yet, or when they plan to? Just wondering if that might solve my KIRO-DT problem so I don't need to replace my SquareShooter.

I think I'm going replace my SquareShooter with another antenna to try and solve my KIRO-DT issue. Since I'm getting good signal levels (80-90) on all of the key channels with my SqS, I probably don't need much more gain. What I think I need is more directionality to minimize multipath.

The locations available on my house don't lend themselves to the highly rated Channel Master CM4228, so I'm leaning towards trying a yagi-style antenna.

As a quick & dirty attempt I could swing by Radio Shack and try their UHF yagi http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

or

I could try something like the CM3023/4248 yagi http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4248.jpg

Any thoughts from the experts here are welcome!

By the way, here's a photo of my current "antenna farm" ....