Seattle, WA - OTA [Text View] - Page 5

quarque

05-23-04, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
So I have a bit of a newbie question. Some of my channels come in really solid, while some are pretty weak. Let's suppose I decide to try increasing the reception of the "weaker" channels by attaching a pre-amp to my antenna. Will this cause the "stronger" channels to start overloading?

I'd like to find a happy medium where all of the channels are just strong, and I'm considering using a pre-amp for this purpose.

Also, what can you guys recommend in the Bellevue/Redmond area as a good place to get a CM 7777 preamp (or equivalent)? Fry's/CC/BB doesn't seem to have any.

Ivan
Preamps are mainly for boosting the signal on long cable runs to the receiver not for fixing reception problems. They can sometimes help with weak channels but it is very unpredictable. If you have a poor signal due to poor signal-to-noise ratio from the antenna then a preamp won't help because it boosts the noise as much as the signal. Not to mention they add their own noise on top of everything. So the point is, you need to get good signal coming from the antenna. Unlkess you are using a pos like Terk, the main thing to try is different anntena locations and heights. And yes, a preamp can overload your strong signals and make them disappear. Which channels are giving you trouble? And is it serious dropouts or just a low reading on the signal meter?

quarque

05-23-04, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Spike89
Now if we can only get KOMO to move their antenna off the side of their tower... I live to the NW and it is the only channel I can't get aside from the occasional "planets in alignment" reflected signal bouncing off puget sound or something... arrghh.
Not likely until 200x when we go ALL DIGITAL. Then they will have to address the coverage problems.

speedy777

05-23-04, 06:54 PM

I purchased a preamp CM7777 to boost channel #9 but couldn't use it. It's just too much signal which affect channel #22. Anyone interest send me a private email. The CM7777 come complete with power supply and only 2 days old. I live about 2 miles West from Fry Electronics in Renton.

Price: $60.0

Ivan H.

05-23-04, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by quarque
Which channels are giving you trouble? And is it serious dropouts or just a low reading on the signal meter?

Sadly, it's the big three that I want that are giving me the most trouble: KOMO (ABC), KING (NBC), and KIRO (CBS). I get several other channels with immaculate reception, such as IND, PAX, and even WB, but channels 4, 5, and 7 come in very snowy. I should point out that, until I get a digital receiver, I'm just determining my reception via analog - I'm assuming that if I can get a decent signal via analog then the digital reception will be the same, as well as the inverse. The signals on the 3 channels are pretty snowy.

I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor; unfortunately, I'm renting my apartment right now, so I don't have the luxury of putting up a big antenna (I had to fight pretty hard just to put up a DirecTV dish). One weird thing is that for the 3 channels above, I actually get reception if I point my Zenith 90-degrees from the direction of the transmitters - can't really explain that, unless I'm picking up a really-off multipath signal or something.

Is my assumption of analog reception correlating to digital reception correct? I want to know what my odds are of good reception before I shell out several hundred dollars for a receiver - if I'm not going to be picking any channels up, then I'll just hold off on the purchase until I move.

Ivan

artshotwell

05-23-04, 08:13 PM

Ivan,

Where do you live? Bellevue, Redmond?

As for analog-digital comparisons, sometimes they work, sometimes not. UHF and digital make things a little more difficult.

For the big 3 networks, a good check for you might be KONG 16. It's UHF and on the KING tower and located close to KIRO & KOMO, too.

quarque

05-23-04, 08:33 PM

Art is correct. There is not an exact correlation between analog reception and digital. Since I did a plot for Ivan and found no problems with hills, his remaining problems are trees and buildings. A proper, well-placed antenna should work for digital - but nothing is guaranteed. Some people have had to try several locations and antennas to find success. Not being able to put an antenna on the roof may be the biggest obstacle but people have had success with indoor antennas in urban locations. Another bit of information on comparing analog with digital: it's not the 'snow' that counts, it's the 'ghosts'. Some snow but no ghosts = good situation.

Ivan H.

05-24-04, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by artshotwell
Ivan,

Where do you live? Bellevue, Redmond?

As for analog-digital comparisons, sometimes they work, sometimes not. UHF and digital make things a little more difficult.

For the big 3 networks, a good check for you might be KONG 16. It's UHF and on the KING tower and located close to KIRO & KOMO, too.

I live near the border of Bellevue and Redmond.

I can pick up KONG 16 pretty well, but am still having trouble with 4/5/7. Those aren't on a different band (e.g. VHF), are they?

Ivan

Ivan H.

05-24-04, 01:10 AM

Just as an update: I borrowed from a friend an old Proscan HD/OTA receiver. I put my Zenith SS as far out on the balcony as I could go. I now get KING and KIRO and 60 and 45 respectively, although on digital I haven't had any dropouts. Strangely, I still can't get KOMO (4) at all - the analog is almost completely-snow and it doesn't pick up any digital signal.

Would this be a known issue? Is KOMO broadcasting with less power or something? I thought that 4, 5, and 7 are pretty much on the same transmitter, in which case it doesn't make sense to me why I would be getting 5 and 7 well but not 4.

I'll keep you guys updated. :)

Ivan

Budget_HT

05-24-04, 01:33 AM

Ivan:

I may not be fully understanding here, so correct me if needed.

Are you trying to pickup analog stations 4, 5 and 7 using your Silver Sensor antenna? If so, you are lucky to get anything, because 4, 5 and 7 (analog) are VHF channels and the Silver Sensor is a UHF-only antenna, not intended for VHF reception.

Now the actual transmitting digital channels involved are 38-1 (KOMO-DT 4-1), 48-1 (KING-DT 5-1) and 39-1 (KIRO 7-1). The Silver Sensor was designed to pickup these UHF channels (and all UHF OTA channels 14 and higher).

If you wanted to try an analog UHF station from Queen Anne Hill (where 4, 5 and 7 are located) you could try KONG-16, as someone mentioned earlier. If you want to try an analog UHF station from Capitol Hill, try KTWB-22.

While 4, 5 and 7 all transmit from Queen Anne Hill, they are on separate towers that are some distance apart from one another. So, getting could reception on one and not another is possible depending on your location and what lies in between.

As quarque would normally suggest, try moving your antenna around to different locations. Sometimes a very small movement makes a big difference in reception, especially with UHF.

Good luck.

Ivan H.

05-24-04, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Ivan:

I may not be fully understanding here, so correct me if needed.

Are you trying to pickup analog stations 4, 5 and 7 using your Silver Sensor antenna? If so, you are lucky to get anything, because 4, 5 and 7 (analog) are VHF channels and the Silver Sensor is a UHF-only antenna, not intended for VHF reception.

<snip>

Now the actual transmitting digital channels involved are 38-1 (KOMO-DT 4-1), 48-1 (KING-DT 5-1) and 39-1 (KIRO 7-1). The Silver Sensor was designed to pickup these UHF channels (and all UHF OTA channels 14 and higher).

Hmm... perhaps I don't understand correctly then. If I tune to 39-1 or 48-1, the tuner apparently just redirects me to 5-1 and 7-1. If I tune to 38-1, I still get no signal (just like 4-1).

I'm getting pretty good signals on 5-1 and 7-1, which leads me to believe that perhaps the tuner is just picking up the right channel behind-the-scenes or something?

Another question: what kind of cable must I use to get an HD picture? The tuner doesn't seem to support component or DVI (yes, I know it's old, I'm not keeping it!) but at first I just had it connected via coax; while the colors seemed nicer, I didn't notice any significant picture improvement. I've switched to S-Video and it seems nicer, but my eyes may just be playing tricks on me. Is S-Video sufficient to carry an HD signal, or is component or DVI the bare-minimum to carry an HD signal?

Again, this is just for brief testing purposes - obviously when I set myself up properly I'll use the best I can afford. I know that neither of these cables are very useful.

Ivan

artshotwell

05-24-04, 10:26 AM

Ivan,

The thing about digital channel numbers is that most stations (all in Seattle, I believe) kinda renumber the channel for you. In other words, KIRO transmits analog on 7, digital on 39, but KIRO transmits data on the digital channel, along with the picture & sound, that makes the channel number show up as 7-1 on your digital receiver. Pretty cleaver, eh?

Most stations do this to connect, for the viewer, their digital channel to their better-known analog channel.

Hope this helps. Art

speedy777

05-24-04, 11:09 AM

I seems to experience channel #9 drop out in the last 3 weeks. The signal 10-30% weaker than normal. Does anyone experience the same problem?

grapaslingo

05-24-04, 11:32 AM

Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum, being referred here by litzdog911 from the tivocommunity forum. I live in Woodinville, and I was hoping I could get some help for my OTA reception.

My biggest question is, is there any way I can get FOX? If someone wouldn't mind checking, my street is NE 187th PL in Woodinville. I hooked up an antenna from Radio Shack with a 10' mast and I seem to be alright for the other networks....somehow. I say that because I can see lots of hills and trees in front of me, but maybe the towers are higher than my hills. :)

FOX is the one channel that is giving me fits. It is *barely* visible at all--but at least I have something there. Any ideas?

Thanks a bunch!

Karyk

05-24-04, 12:23 PM

Fox would be a different direction--it broadcasts from Gold Mountain near Bremerton.

Try turning the antenna and see if it comes in. If it does, then you'll either need to find a direction where all of them work, or go to a two antenna setup (something that's easier to do if your tuner accepts two inputs--if it doesn't, search for Join-tenna in this thread.)

BTW, are you talking analog or digital? If analog, Ch 13 used to have a kit that included an antenna and combiner box set up specifically for their channel. Not sure if that's still offered, but it was two years ago.

grapaslingo

05-24-04, 12:52 PM

Thanks for the response. I'm talking digital--but I might need to reeducate myself here...

I was trying to tune in FOX channel 13. That's not correct?

Karyk

05-24-04, 01:25 PM

Channel 13 digital is channel 18. It's lower than most the other digital channels which would help in buying a Join-tenna.

BTW, just to be clear, by Digital I mean the channel they would broadcast HDTV on, regardless of whether it's HD content or not.

Ivan H.

05-24-04, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Karyk
Try turning the antenna and see if it comes in. If it does, then you'll either need to find a direction where all of them work, or go to a two antenna setup (something that's easier to do if your tuner accepts two inputs--if it doesn't, search for Join-tenna in this thread.)

Is this common for receivers these days, to accept two antenna inputs and combine them internally? I've seen some older receivers that have an "Antenna A" and "Antenna B" input, but usually you have to manually switch between them; do newer receivers do this for you?

Ivan

Budget_HT

05-24-04, 02:48 PM

Ivan:

I think the tuner you have right now (Proscan) is a cousin to the RCA DTC-100. If so, its only HD output is actually an RGB output in the form of a mini-DB15 (same as a monitor connector on a computer). All other outputs (s-video, composite and RF) are downconverts to 480i NTSC analog.

I don't recall which TV you have, or whether it has an RGB input or not. If not, the only way to pass HD from the Proscan STB to the TV is by adding a converter from RGB to Component video. If I were you, I would instead put my money into a newer generation HD OTA-capable tuner with component outputs. Circuit City often has open box units for around $200, give or take $50. The RGB to Component converter costs $100 + (new)depending on what brand you get.

Your 2 antenna inputs allow you to use either 2 antennas or antenna and cable. But, as you already know, the channel lists are separate between the A & B inputs. The newer STBs provide integrated channel lists that can include OTA, cable and DirecTV (if you have it) all within a single list, which is much easier operation, especially for other family members.

You could look at the HD output of the Proscan receiver on an S-VGA-capable computer monitor.

Again, I would spend my money on an up-to-date receiver instead of an RGB to component converter.

BTW I have an RCA DTC-100, so I could answer any more questions you have about the Proscan cousin.

Karyk

05-24-04, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
Is this common for receivers these days, to accept two antenna inputs and combine them internally? I've seen some older receivers that have an "Antenna A" and "Antenna B" input, but usually you have to manually switch between them; do newer receivers do this for you?

Ivan

I think most the HD PC cards have two antenna inputs.

Ivan H.

05-24-04, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Budget_HT

I don't recall which TV you have, or whether it has an RGB input or not. If not, the only way to pass HD from the Proscan STB to the TV is by adding a converter from RGB to Component video. If I were you, I would instead put my money into a newer generation HD OTA-capable tuner with component outputs. Circuit City often has open box units for around $200, give or take $50. The RGB to Component converter costs $100 + (new)depending on what brand you get.

You could look at the HD output of the Proscan receiver on an S-VGA-capable computer monitor.

Again, I would spend my money on an up-to-date receiver instead of an RGB to component converter.

BTW I have an RCA DTC-100, so I could answer any more questions you have about the Proscan cousin.

Are you sure about needing an RGB converter? I managed to pick up 9-5 (PBS HD) OTA last night, and through my S-Video connection I was getting some pretty nice HD.

I can't pull out the model number because I'm not home. Thanks for the info though! I'm definitely not shelling out any cash for a converter - I'm just borrowing this POS receiver from my friend to see what my OTA options are.

It turns out that I can pretty much pick up all of the channels, but not from one spot. If I move my Zenith SS to one spot, I'll get 5, 7, and 9, but not 4, 11 or 13. If I move it to another spot, I'll get 11 and 13, but not 4, 5, 7 or 9. Another spot again will get me 4, but not 5 or 7. Ah, the life of OTA multipath. :)

Ivan

jsamans

05-24-04, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
Are you sure about needing an RGB converter? I managed to pick up 9-5 (PBS HD) OTA last night, and through my S-Video connection I was getting some pretty nice HD.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe that s-video is limited to 480i and lower -- so you cannot transport HDTV signals over an s-video cable.

quarque

05-24-04, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by grapaslingo
Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum, being referred here by litzdog911 from the tivocommunity forum. I live in Woodinville, and I was hoping I could get some help for my OTA reception.

My biggest question is, is there any way I can get FOX? If someone wouldn't mind checking, my street is NE 187th PL in Woodinville. I hooked up an antenna from Radio Shack with a 10' mast and I seem to be alright for the other networks....somehow. I say that because I can see lots of hills and trees in front of me, but maybe the towers are higher than my hills. :)

FOX is the one channel that is giving me fits. It is *barely* visible at all--but at least I have something there. Any ideas?

Thanks a bunch!
Some posts in the last few months have been confusing people because the questions were about analog reception but that was not made clear at the start. AVS does not really have a Local Reception forum for analog.

Anyway, I did a topo profile from your location and you should be fine if your antenna is 15 feet off the ground or more. Your problem with FOX might be due to a single tree right in the signal path. Try moving your antenna sideways a few feet. What bearing are you using for FOX? You might be aimed incorrectly. FOX is 224 deg. magnetic for you.

quarque

05-24-04, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by jsamans
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe that s-video is limited to 480i and lower -- so you cannot transport HDTV signals over an s-video cable.
No correction needed. :)

It might look "nice" but s-video aint HD.

quarque

05-24-04, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I think the tuner you have right now (Proscan) is a cousin to the RCA DTC-100. If so, its only HD output is actually an RGB output in the form of a mini-DB15 (same as a monitor connector on a computer).
Just for fun one night, I connected my 15" LCD monitor from my PC up to the RGB connector on my Samsung SIR-T150 receiver. It put out a very nice picture even if it was tiny compared to my 47" RP. You can't beat LCD or plasma for crystal clear pictures! The only thing that comes close is the DLP technology but it is still closer to CRT projection quality than plasma.

Budget_HT

05-24-04, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
Are you sure about needing an RGB converter? I managed to pick up 9-5 (PBS HD) OTA last night, and through my S-Video connection I was getting some pretty nice HD.

I can't pull out the model number because I'm not home. Thanks for the info though! I'm definitely not shelling out any cash for a converter - I'm just borrowing this POS receiver from my friend to see what my OTA options are.

It turns out that I can pretty much pick up all of the channels, but not from one spot. If I move my Zenith SS to one spot, I'll get 5, 7, and 9, but not 4, 11 or 13. If I move it to another spot, I'll get 11 and 13, but not 4, 5, 7 or 9. Another spot again will get me 4, but not 5 or 7. Ah, the life of OTA multipath. :)

Ivan

The RGB versus component question only relates to display resolution, not analog or digital TV reception. HDTV programs played 480i through your S-video or composite video output will most likely provide the cleanest analog signal your TV has ever seen, but it is not near as good as 720p or 1080i resolution display of the same video. Both the picture detail and color accuracy will be much better than what you are seeing right now.

Your testing of your reception capabilities is valid. But your opportunity to see real HDTV will depend on RGB or component connection (or DVI or HDMI if your TV and STB support it). If you like the 480i result you see now, you will REALLY like the true HD picture you will get soon.

Some of the newer HD STBs are better at handling multipath than the early Proscan model you are testing with now. Perhaps some of your reception issues will be less with the newer receiver.

Good luck!!!

Ivan H.

05-25-04, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Budget_HT
The RGB versus component question only relates to display resolution, not analog or digital TV reception. HDTV programs played 480i through your S-video or composite video output will most likely provide the cleanest analog signal your TV has ever seen, but it is not near as good as 720p or 1080i resolution display of the same video. Both the picture detail and color accuracy will be much better than what you are seeing right now.

Your testing of your reception capabilities is valid. But your opportunity to see real HDTV will depend on RGB or component connection (or DVI or HDMI if your TV and STB support it). If you like the 480i result you see now, you will REALLY like the true HD picture you will get soon.

Some of the newer HD STBs are better at handling multipath than the early Proscan model you are testing with now. Perhaps some of your reception issues will be less with the newer receiver.

Good luck!!!

Interesting... you make some good points. Thanks for the info!

Here's a question I have though: why is coax not sufficient for carrying an HD signal? If it's good enough to carry the signal from the antenna to the receiver, then why is it not good enough to carry the signal from the receiver to the TV? As I understand it, regular coaxial cable has a really large amount of bandwidth - it should be more than enough to carry the amount of data necessary for an HD signal, shouldn't it?

Another question: what's a better solution, getting a TV with an integrated HD tuner, or getting an HD television with a separate receiver? Are integrated receivers considered lower quality, or are the same?

Ivan

quarque

05-25-04, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
Interesting... you make some good points. Thanks for the info!

Here's a question I have though: why is coax not sufficient for carrying an HD signal? If it's good enough to carry the signal from the antenna to the receiver, then why is it not good enough to carry the signal from the receiver to the TV? As I understand it, regular coaxial cable has a really large amount of bandwidth - it should be more than enough to carry the amount of data necessary for an HD signal, shouldn't it?

Another question: what's a better solution, getting a TV with an integrated HD tuner, or getting an HD television with a separate receiver? Are integrated receivers considered lower quality, or are the same?

Ivan
The point was not about the cable (coax does carry HD very well). The point was that the S-Video signal format does not put out HD resolution signals.

I would opt for a separate receiver because the technology is evolving faster than TV's so it is more likely you'll replace the box before the TV dies. Also easier to service.

Budget_HT

05-25-04, 02:02 AM

Ivan:

Here is one of several good references that describe HDTV (ATSC) and how it differs from analog TV (NTSC):

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/

I have not looked at this lately. I don't know if it is completely up to date. But everything there would be correct, there just might be a few of the newest items missing.

This forum is another good source of info, especially if you identify something you want to know more about and use the search engine in the forum to look for prior (or current) threads and posts that address that particular item.

Asking questions here is good too. That is how many of us filled in our knowledge gaps.

BTW, I agree with quarque on getting an external STB/receiver for HDTV, for the same reasons he gave. In fact, I can't think of any subject on this forum where I would disagree with quarque. He is invaluable to folks in the Seattle area with his geo/topographic tool to look at reception conditions by street address.

Enjoy!!!

grapaslingo

05-25-04, 01:17 PM

I got my HD Tivo unit yesterday--set it up...no HD. I'm getting the analog stations fine, but nothing really by way of digital information. Dan the Anntenna man is coming to take a look this weekend, but he says it doesn't look good for me...:(

litzdog911

05-25-04, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by grapaslingo
I got my HD Tivo unit yesterday--set it up...no HD. I'm getting the analog stations fine, but nothing really by way of digital information. Dan the Anntenna man is coming to take a look this weekend, but he says it doesn't look good for me...:(

It seems surprising that you get no digital channels at all when you're able to receive analolg channels OK (I assume you're using your TV to check the analog channels?). Is your antenna optimized for UHF? Let us know what Dan has to say.

quarque

05-25-04, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by grapaslingo
I got my HD Tivo unit yesterday--set it up...no HD. I'm getting the analog stations fine, but nothing really by way of digital information. Dan the Anntenna man is coming to take a look this weekend, but he says it doesn't look good for me...:(
I don't know why he would make that statement. We have seen people with MUCH worse situations get HD just fine. You have no real problem with hills as long as your antenna is not sitting on the ground. A good high-gain unit like the CM4228 will usually bust through trees. Are you sure your problem is not "setup" on the Tivo?

litzdog911

05-26-04, 12:44 AM

Spike89

05-27-04, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911

I also ordered a Join-Tenna for UHF Ch 18 in case I need to use my SquareShooter to "add" KCPQ-DT to my Seattle stations. They said it could 2-3 weeks because the JoinTenna is a special order item.

I'll post back when I hopefully have this setup working well.

I hope you have better luck than I had with your join-tenna....

I received my ch 18 jointenna a few days ago, but have found that the dang thing doesn't work as advertised.

I'm using a CM4228 in my attic for ch 18 (great signal), and a Winegard HD9085P yagi for the QA and CH stations.

There are 3 F-connectors on the join-tenna. One labeled "CH 18", one labeled "All channel", and one labeled "TV Set".

Seems logical that the "CH 18" is your input for your antenna that will pick up channel 18, and will lead to a band pass filter that only passes channel 18 while rejecting all others.

"All channel" should be your connection for the antenna picking up all the other stations. It should lead to a band reject filter that rejects channel 18 and passes all others.

The combined output of these two should then appear at the "TV Set" output.

Well... after feeling a lot of frustration and moving antenna inputs around, testing them one at a time and combined, I found that (at least with my unit) the "CH 18" input in reality acted like the band-reject, ie it passed everything BUT channel 18. Analog 22, 16 and 13 were also attenuated. This is the opposite of what I would think it should be doing.

The "all channel" input didn't seem to do any filtering at all, it passed everything put into it. This seems to be the real cause of the units failure to work correctly.

As a net result, hooked up "normally" all I got was self-inflicted multipath with both antennae hooked up to the unit, and NO signal from KCPQ at all. With the inputs "reversed", ie channel 18 antenna hooked to the "all channel" input and the other antenna connected to the "CH 18" input, I could get KCPQ but the multipath on the other channels was still causing trouble.

Due to the join-tenna's high quality construction, taking it apart was a matter of squeezing the plastic housing a bit to get the circuit board to pop out. The guts of the thing are amazingly simple, just a bunch of inductors and a few capacitors, along with what I think are two tunable filters. I've attached a picture for you to check out.

Has anybody else had success with this thing?

-Mike

Spike89

05-27-04, 04:25 PM

Well, after looking at the box for the join-tenna, I may have found out why the "all channel" input doesn't seem to be doing any filtering. The join-tenna is to be used to combine an "all channel" antenna with a SINGLE-CHANNEL (cut-channel) antenna. This might explain why the thing only seems to be performing the band-reject function (to reject channel 18 on the all-channel antenna) because the cut-channel antenna would not receive channels above or below ch 18 well enough to require any band pass filtering. My problem is that the CM4228 I'm using to get ch 18 also picks up 5.1, 7.1, 11.1, 22.1 and 16.1 to various degrees, which just becomes multipath when combined with those channels off my main HD9085P antenna. I'd still like to know if anybody else has had any success with their join-tenna.

thanks,
Mike

subspace

05-27-04, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Spike89
I hope you have better luck than I had with your join-tenna....

I received my ch 18 jointenna a few days ago, but have found that the dang thing doesn't work as advertised.

I'm using a CM4228 in my attic for ch 18 (great signal), and a Winegard HD9085P yagi for the QA and CH stations.

There are 3 F-connectors on the join-tenna. One labeled "CH 18", one labeled "All channel", and one labeled "TV Set".

Seems logical that the "CH 18" is your input for your antenna that will pick up channel 18, and will lead to a band pass filter that only passes channel 18 while rejecting all others.

"All channel" should be your connection for the antenna picking up all the other stations. It should lead to a band reject filter that rejects channel 18 and passes all others.

The combined output of these two should then appear at the "TV Set" output.

Well... after feeling a lot of frustration and moving antenna inputs around, testing them one at a time and combined, I found that (at least with my unit) the "CH 18" input in reality acted like the band-reject, ie it passed everything BUT channel 18. Analog 22, 16 and 13 were also attenuated. This is the opposite of what I would think it should be doing.

The "all channel" input didn't seem to do any filtering at all, it passed everything put into it. This seems to be the real cause of the units failure to work correctly.

As a net result, hooked up "normally" all I got was self-inflicted multipath with both antennae hooked up to the unit, and NO signal from KCPQ at all. With the inputs "reversed", ie channel 18 antenna hooked to the "all channel" input and the other antenna connected to the "CH 18" input, I could get KCPQ but the multipath on the other channels was still causing trouble.

Due to the join-tenna's high quality construction, taking it apart was a matter of squeezing the plastic housing a bit to get the circuit board to pop out. The guts of the thing are amazingly simple, just a bunch of inductors and a few capacitors, along with what I think are two tunable filters. I've attached a picture for you to check out.

Has anybody else had success with this thing?

-Mike

I haven't tried my Ch.18 Join-tenna yet, but I received it a couple weeks ago. I'll be trying to set it up sometime next month. Regarding your observations, I would suggest calling ChannelMaster. If you can't reach the right technical people there, try calling Warren Electronics (assuming that's who you bought it from). I bet they would be happy to call one of their contacts at ChannelMaster for you.

I read somewhere that these are individually "tuned" for the channel you specify at the time of manufacture. Since this is a very manual operation, it could be that your unit simply wasn't tuned properly. I hope that's the problem actually. I don't want to hook mine up and have the same results as you! I'll make a post here to let people know how mine turns out.

subspace

05-27-04, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Spike89
Well, after looking at the box for the join-tenna, I may have found out why the "all channel" input doesn't seem to be doing any filtering. The join-tenna is to be used to combine an "all channel" antenna with a SINGLE-CHANNEL (cut-channel) antenna. This might explain why the thing only seems to be performing the band-reject function (to reject channel 18 on the all-channel antenna) because the cut-channel antenna would not receive channels above or below ch 18 well enough to require any band pass filtering. My problem is that the CM4228 I'm using to get ch 18 also picks up 5.1, 7.1, 11.1, 22.1 and 16.1 to various degrees, which just becomes multipath when combined with those channels off my main HD9085P antenna. I'd still like to know if anybody else has had any success with their join-tenna.

thanks,
Mike

What is an example of a "Cut channel" antenna? Manufacturer? Model? Maybe I'll get one if that's the best way to use the Join-tenna.

quarque

05-27-04, 09:25 PM

spike89 - I found this in the hardware forum in a thread discussing the Jointenna:

"I've scoped out these Jointennas with a spectrum analyzer and a white noise generator. The "all channels" input should instead be labeled, "all other channels" It has the bandstop filter that is about 20 dB deep, forms a solid trough about three channels wide (plus 1, minus 1) and rolls off gently over about two channels on each side thereafter. The characterics of the single channel bandpass input are not so concise or symmetrical. It cleanly passes maybe two lower adjacent channels, two to three upper adjacent channels, and then rolls off irregularly on the high frequency end. The out-of-band rejection depth on the single channel antenna inputs on the UHF units that I evaluated was a little deeper than 20dB."

So it is supposed to pass CH 18 on the "18" input and reject "18" on the "All" input as you expected. But given your proximity to all the towers it might take more than 20db of reduction to keep out the unwanted channels. One thing to try would be an attenuator on the "18" antenna just before it goes into the Jointenna. This will knock down all the signals and hopefully 18 will still be strong enough.

Another thought: try turning your Ch 18 antenna further west to block the Seattle stations more but still get 18.

quarque

05-27-04, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by subspace
What is an example of a "Cut channel" antenna? Manufacturer? Model? Maybe I'll get one if that's the best way to use the Join-tenna.
Cut-channel antennas are made by many companies but are usually special order (not stocked in stores). They are designed to receive one channel only (actually get +/- 1 channel to some degree). This would be one way to solve the problem Spike89 has where the single-channel input on his Jointenna is getting enough signal on other channels because it is a broadband antenna. Since he already has his antennas set up I suggested an attenuator to reduce the signal levels below reception threshold instead.

subspace

05-27-04, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by quarque
Cut-channel antennas are made by many companies but are usually special order (not stocked in stores). They are designed to receive one channel only (actually get +/- 1 channel to some degree). This would be one way to solve the problem Spike89 has where the single-channel input on his Jointenna is getting enough signal on other channels because it is a broadband antenna. Since he already has his antennas set up I suggested an attenuator to reduce the signal levels below reception threshold instead.

I see. Makes sense. :)

DanKurts

05-28-04, 01:31 AM

Gentlemen
Thought I would stop by and say Thank You for the kind words and referrals.

Also thought I might be able to help answer the question about the Join-Tenna and ch18. The VHF version of these work quite well in the outer areas, fair when close in. They used to come in metal housings many years ago, and were better at rejecting ingress, or signals leaking into the combiner. The plastic housing obviously allows some signal in. Depending on the site, it might not be a problem. They have about a 20-30db rejection, again depending on the signal levels and location you're working with. The key to making these work is blocking ALL of the desired channel from the "all antenna" input, and allowing NOTHING but the desired channel to come through on the "single channel" input. The better the combiner, the narrower these are, and the deeper the rejection. If you're working with signal levels lower than 20db, and there are no adjacent channels you still want to keep, fine. However, this usually is not the case. If either is antenna stronger, then you get some still coming in on the unwanted input, resulting in problems.
Now, for the UHF version, it gets much worse. The higher frequencies make it difficult to keep the same narrow filtering, hence the statement in the Channel Master catalogue that you will affect channels as much as 5 higher or lower from the desired one. That's pretty wide, and in the case of ch18, when it's hot, you'll start to get into KTWB, or ch25. The trap is not that narrow, so even 7channels up could be affected.
And there are some adjustable UHF combiners out there I tested years ago, when HD started up, that are really wide and shallow. To make a good trap, it should have at least 40db rejection, 50db is even better. PICO used to make these custom for VHF, and worked very well. They never made them for UHF, and when I asked what it would cost, they quoted me $800-$1000 for the trap portion and the same for the bandpass. Other people that specialize in it, quoted similar prices.
UHF is a pain!
Normally, about 90% of the time, I can get them to all come in with the right antenna, if they are receivable.
For the jobs where I have to use two antennas, I simply run a second cable and use an A/B remote antenna switch, like Rat Shack has, for about $40. It's far quicker than a rotor and can be combined in a macro for those with Prontos or similar programmable remotes. The switch has discrete codes for A and B.

The Join-Tenna combiners can work, but you need to really work within their limited parameters. This requires a meter or analyzer, the right antennas, location and LOTS of patience! Yes, occasionally someone hooks them together with a 2way splitter and it works, but the odds of success are up there with the Lotto.
If you want to play, it's cheap to try. Your actual mileage may vary, however.

Again, Thank You!
Dan

quarque

05-28-04, 08:40 PM

Thank you Dan and welcome (finally!) to AVS. Yes, your name has been bandied about here and I hope it has worked to your advantage. Your input on various topics will be quite useful. I hope you stop by often to see what is going on. One of my main contributions is to do line-of-site checks for people who don't know the terrain in their area. Don't hesitate to PM me if you need a check sometime. Again, glad to see you here. :)

Larry

DanKurts

05-29-04, 03:47 AM

Larry
Thanks.
I have been using Topo USA since version 1. It's been very useful, and interesting to compare it to real world installs. Just upgraded from 4 to version 5 a few days ago, haven't installed it yet. Nice to have the entire US on one DVD.
Business keeps me hopping, but I'll try to check in from time to time.
Dan

Bremerton

05-29-04, 06:15 AM

Can anyone explain I got this weird channel on comcast cable Channel 77
(not with cable box) plugged directly in the back
it has a Graph with numbers on top it says flatness corrections not availiable and Span and Request at the bottom and 67.3 mhz 10DB am I picking some kind of UFO??
it looks like some kind of readout from inside of a spaceship really really weird hopefully someone would know what im talking about and can explain this phenominon

It stays on this all day long sometimes i sit and whatch it it looks loike the graph is changing:confused:

Please someone explain this to me!

Spike89

05-30-04, 06:19 AM

Thanks for all the replies about the join-tenna. I think I will try aiming the ch 18 antenna some more to try to "tune out" the other stations, but I have a feeling the attic location might have enough reflections to make it difficult. I also have my trusty variable attenuator to use to try to kill off the others. It still kind of frustrates me that the inputs seemed to be mislabled (the ch 18 input acted like a ch 18 trap). I'm also kicking around the idea of trying to cannibalize my old rat-shack Vu-89 by disconnecting the VHF portion and then cutting down and moving the UHF yagi directors etc to make my own cut-to-channel 18 antenna based on some of the antenna design calculators I've run across on the net. Might be fun (lol, right!). I'm also trying to get in touch with a friend who does a lot of RF design work who makes these types of filters in his sleep (he used to be chief engineer at KHQ-TV in Spokane). If he manages to cobble something together for me that works, I'll let everybody know.

Oh yeah, I saw that bit on the hardware forum. He also said that the plastic boxes "leaked RF like sieves". I bought a 3 dollar project box at radio shack to put the guts of my join-tenna in. Didn't help at all. Oh well.

-Mike

Spike89

05-30-04, 06:29 AM

Here is an example of a cut-to-channel UHF antenna:

Blonder-Tongue BTY-10-U-(channel number). Band A (ch 14-19) specs:
Gain 12.2 dBi
3dB Beamwidth 46 degrees
Front/back ratio 21 dB
Boom Length 48 inches
Element width 12.8 inches

Available at Stark Electronics for 122 bucks.

Hmmm, maybe I'll wait until Fox actually has some real HD content before pursuing this one.

DanKurts

05-30-04, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Spike89
Well, after looking at the box for the join-tenna, I may have found out why the "all channel" input doesn't seem to be doing any filtering. The join-tenna is to be used to combine an "all channel" antenna with a SINGLE-CHANNEL (cut-channel) antenna. This might explain why the thing only seems to be performing the band-reject function (to reject channel 18 on the all-channel antenna) because the cut-channel antenna would not receive channels above or below ch 18 well enough to require any band pass filtering. My problem is that the CM4228 I'm using to get ch 18 also picks up 5.1, 7.1, 11.1, 22.1 and 16.1 to various degrees, which just becomes multipath when combined with those channels off my main HD9085P antenna. I'd still like to know if anybody else has had any success with their join-tenna.

thanks,
Mike

Mike

I'm curious.
Most of Indianola has a pretty good shot at Seattle. And 13 should be a slam dunk. Did you ever try the 4228 by itself out on the roof? It has a fairly wide reception path, unlike the other antenna. With the 4228 pointed basically south, you should be able to pull in everything, assuming you're not in a gully or the like.
Dan

Spike89

05-31-04, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
Mike

I'm curious.
Most of Indianola has a pretty good shot at Seattle. And 13 should be a slam dunk. Did you ever try the 4228 by itself out on the roof? It has a fairly wide reception path, unlike the other antenna. With the 4228 pointed basically south, you should be able to pull in everything, assuming you're not in a gully or the like.
Dan

I haven't tried it on the roof, mostly due to trying to keep the wife happy (the 9085P I have on the side of the chimney was really pushing her limits). The best I could probably do would be to mount the 4228 on the south-facing wall under the eave, but mounting options seem to be limited for trying to adapt to 16" on-center wall studs. Currently it is mounted just inside of the south wall in the attic, shooting thru Hardi-plank siding. I've tried aiming to get all stations, but can't get everything reliably (the CH stations as well as KIRO bounce, really bad when it rains, etc). I shoot through some trees about 30 feet away to hit the CH and QA towers, and more trees about 300 feet away for Gold mtn which doesn't help either. I might experiment with the 4228 outside when I get some time.... any ideas on how to mount it to the outside wall? I could probably cut up some angle iron and cobble some A-frames together, but something off-the-shelf would be more desireable. I'm going to monkey with the aiming and an attenuator coupled with the join-tenna some probably next week, will post back with my results.

-Mike

litzdog911

05-31-04, 03:41 AM

Originally posted by Spike89
I haven't tried it on the roof, mostly due to trying to keep the wife happy (the 9085P I have on the side of the chimney was really pushing her limits). The best I could probably do would be to mount the 4228 on the south-facing wall under the eave, but mounting options seem to be limited for trying to adapt to 16" on-center wall studs. Currently it is mounted just inside of the south wall in the attic, shooting thru Hardi-plank siding. I've tried aiming to get all stations, but can't get everything reliably (the CH stations as well as KIRO bounce, really bad when it rains, etc). I shoot through some trees about 30 feet away to hit the CH and QA towers, and more trees about 300 feet away for Gold mtn which doesn't help either. I might experiment with the 4228 outside when I get some time.... any ideas on how to mount it to the outside wall? I could probably cut up some angle iron and cobble some A-frames together, but something off-the-shelf would be more desireable. I'm going to monkey with the aiming and an attenuator coupled with the join-tenna some probably next week, will post back with my results.

-Mike

Mike, thanks for keeping us posted on your progress. This information could be very useful for me as I await the arrival of my Join-Tenna and wrestle with the same issue of receiving both KCPQ-DT and the Seattle stations.

As far as mounting your 4228 to the wall, can't you use something like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F004&product%5Fid=15%2D885

One issue might be mounting it onto Hardi-plank. I've never worked with that stuff.

quarque

05-31-04, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Spike89
I've tried aiming to get all stations, but can't get everything reliably
That doesn't surprise me. You have about a 90 degree spread between the three main tower locations and very few antennas can cover that. Usually the ones with a wide beamwidth will also pick up the most reflections. So your plan to join two antennas sounds like the best approach. Have you tried the attenuator on the CH 18 side yet?

Oh, almost forgot, are you tilting your antennas up? Gold Mtn would be around 12 degrees for you and QA would be around 8.

DanKurts

06-01-04, 03:54 AM

Mike, et al
litzdog911 is on the right track for mounting. Just mount the 4228 between the two clamps on it's own mast, similar to the picture to the right of the clamps shown on the RatShack web page.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F004&product%5Fid=15%2D885

Separate them about 36" vertically and then you can swing the antenna to the right/left a few degrees. There should have been mast clamps that came with the antenna. It will mount on any 1-1/4" pipe. A 1" ID galvanized water pipe will work fine, you can get a 3ft piece at Home Depot. The screws that come with the clamp are sufficient to hold up the antenna, just predrill the hardy plank with a small 1/8" or less drill bit to start the screws, and seal the threads with silicone glue, or a sealer of your choice, to keep out the moisture, not a good thing with hardy plank.

As far as tilting it, you'll find it's not that fussy. In fact, unless the trees are really thick and close, you shouldn't have to move it much from a due south aiming. The bow tie types are not at all narrow in reception like the yagi's. I routinely use them when the tower locations are 90-120 degrees apart. If they do get fussy, it's because of the trees or obstruction. You end up trying to null or misaim the antenna to cancel a bounce off something. Tilting a yagi can help a little, but again, they're not that fussy in that direction unless you're fighting severe multipath.
Try the 4228 out on the roof, just for grins. If it works well, but not under the eave, you could cut the antenna in half, vertically, making a 4221, which might get by the Mrs. To try it, simply remove the two connecting rods from the right and left halves, and attach the balun to one of them and see what you get. I would bet it's the same or slightly better. You could then remove the other antenna and use just this one.

And litzdog911, I have done installs in and around Mill Creek. You should be able to get all of the channels with a good yagi type. all the channels are basically one direction from there. The trees are the big problem in the Mill Creek subdivision. If you can find the right mounting spot to thread your way through the trees, it is possible. The 4228 and smaller 4221 are just to wide in reception. They pick up all the multipath bouncing off everything, which ends up giving you aiming fits. I have tried them many times out there, but rarely find they work very well. In the trees, I usually end up using the 4248 or Antenna Craft mxu59 and a 7775 preamp.

Also, just for the record, I find the 4221 works just as well as the 4228 in 98% of my installs, and it's easier to work with. If it doesn't work, the 4228 doesn't either. I keep one of each for testing, along with others, but have never found a spot around Puget sound where the 4228 was better. I know it has better gain numbers, in theory. In the real world, here, it hasn't helped. In jobs I did in the Bay area, and north up in Santa Rosa, it did work well. Terrain was flat, desert like, no trees, and 90 miles almost line of sight to SF and Mt Sutro. It worked slightly better than the 4248.

I never say never, or that using brand X or a coathanger won't bring in something. I did play around with one customers 4221 in his attic, in Mill Creek, and got 4-5-7-9 okay, the rest were too far gone, though, but that's all he wanted. Just wanted you to know so you won't be surprised if your current ch18 project gets less than favorable results!
Dan

Spike89

06-01-04, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by litzdog911

As far as mounting your 4228 to the wall, can't you use something like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F004&product%5Fid=15%2D885

One issue might be mounting it onto Hardi-plank. I've never worked with that stuff.

Due to the weight of the 4228, I think I'd need to mount something directly into the wall studs, which are 16 inches on center. Otherwise I'd be asking the 1/4 inch hardiplank and a sheet of tyvek to hold the weight (the attic area doesn't have any wood sheeting behind the siding). I suppose I might be able to take the 12" mount and bend it up in a vise to change it to a 16" span.

-Mike

*edit*
Forgot to add that I'll probably play with this all some more on Thursday or Friday, depending on the weather. Good weather = have to work in yard, Bad weather = get to play around in attic with antenna.

As far as tilting, I had a hell of a time trying to figure out how to tilt the 4228 when I first installed it. I cobbled together this goofy tilting arm that works ok in the attic with no wind load, but would quickly disintegrate if it was outside. I find that the tilt (at least indoors) affects the signal from the Seattle sticks when aimed at either +/- 15 degrees or so from my location, where the signal really starts to fall off. Anything in between was hard to see a difference except on KOMO which has such low signal anyway that even aimed spot-on has basically no reception except once in a blue moon at midnight. The kludgy tilt arm is still up there, I'll try to snap a picture for everybody to laugh at.

Thanks for all the replies and detailed info. This sure has turned out much more of a "project" than I initially thought, especially since I'm so close to the transmitters with line-of-sight. My wife thought I was crazy until she saw CSI in HD, and that got her hooked to some degree.

Karyk

06-01-04, 12:16 PM

Did anyone else notice how KOMO stayed on the Stanley Cup in HD while they showed the monorail fire in SD? I wanted to compare the PQ but finally gave up because they stayed on that fire story so long.

MajikMarker

06-01-04, 03:27 PM

Arrrg...don't even get me started with KOMO preempting the hockey to show that monorail story (for over an hour!!!!) I too was pleased initially that KOMO hd stayed on the hockey game, however, someone eventually flipped a switch and we had idiotic coverage of a fire on both feeds. You would have thought the entire downtown of Seattle was burning down!!

I hate OVERHYPED local news!!!!

litzdog911

06-01-04, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by DanKurts
.... And litzdog911, I have done installs in and around Mill Creek. You should be able to get all of the channels with a good yagi type. all the channels are basically one direction from there. The trees are the big problem in the Mill Creek subdivision. If you can find the right mounting spot to thread your way through the trees, it is possible. The 4228 and smaller 4221 are just to wide in reception. They pick up all the multipath bouncing off everything, which ends up giving you aiming fits. I have tried them many times out there, but rarely find they work very well. In the trees, I usually end up using the 4248 or Antenna Craft mxu59 and a 7775 preamp.
....
Dan

Dan:
Thanks for the advice! So far I'm having pretty good luck with a CM4248 in my attic that a fellow AVS Forum member loaned me. I can get the QA and CH stations fine. But it's too directional to also get KCPQ-DT from Bremerton (30-deg off of Seattle). I still have my SquareShooter mounted outside and it picks up KCPQ great, but too much multipath (I think) from the Seattle stations causes dropouts with those stations. So I have a ch. 18 JoinTenna on order to see if I can combine those two together. I may wind up giving you a call if it doesn't work out like I hope.

Karyk

06-01-04, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by MajikMarker
Arrrg...don't even get me started with KOMO preempting the hockey to show that monorail story (for over an hour!!!!) I too was pleased initially that KOMO hd stayed on the hockey game, however, someone eventually flipped a switch and we had idiotic coverage of a fire on both feeds. You would have thought the entire downtown of Seattle was burning down!!

I hate OVERHYPED local news!!!!

I quit watching the hockey sometime early in the second period to watch a movie. Did they switch the HD feed after that point? By then the fire had been out for quite some time! That would be just stupid.

RobbyD

06-03-04, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by DanKurts
And litzdog911, I have done installs in and around Mill Creek. You should be able to get all of the channels with a good yagi type. all the channels are basically one direction from there. The trees are the big problem in the Mill Creek subdivision. If you can find the right mounting spot to thread your way through the trees, it is possible. The 4228 and smaller 4221 are just to wide in reception. They pick up all the multipath bouncing off everything, which ends up giving you aiming fits. I have tried them many times out there, but rarely find they work very well. In the trees, I usually end up using the 4248 or Antenna Craft mxu59 and a 7775 preamp.

I live next to Mill Creek in the Canyon Park area. I would suspect I'm in the same boat. On my roof with a tripod, my 4228 can get pretty much all the stations except Fox. I was planning on doing the join-tenna thing but it looks like you don't think that would work.

So to be clear - you suggest using a yagi (4248) with a 7775 and it would likely get ALL the channels? If so, that would be great.

What would you suggest if I also wanted to get FM reception? Would one of the rat shack Yagi's with FM and VHF all in one be something to consider?

litzdog911

06-03-04, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by RobbyD
I live next to Mill Creek in the Canyon Park area. I would suspect I'm in the same boat. On my roof with a tripod, my 4228 can get pretty much all the stations except Fox. I was planning on doing the join-tenna thing but it looks like you don't think that would work.

So to be clear - you suggest using a yagi (4248) with a 7775 and it would likely get ALL the channels? If so, that would be great.

What would you suggest if I also wanted to get FM reception? Would one of the rat shack Yagi's with FM and VHF all in one be something to consider?

From my house the CM4248 yagi is too directional to get both the Seattle channels and KCPQ from one position. Maybe that will change when I get my preamp (I have a 7775 on order). Hopefully I can get the JoinTenna approach to work.

quarque

06-03-04, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by DanKurts

The 4228 and smaller 4221 are just to wide in reception. They pick up all the multipath bouncing off everything, which ends up giving you aiming fits. I have tried them many times out there, but rarely find they work very well. In the trees, I usually end up using the 4248 or Antenna Craft mxu59 and a 7775 preamp.

Dan
I don't understand how the 4228 can be considered too wide in beam width. The polar gain plots for the 4228 and 4248 are very similar and very directional. Experience by many AVS members including myself have found the 4228 to be VERY directional and VERY good at rejecting off-axis multipath. Most people rarely get it to cover more than a 60 degree spread unless they are very close to the towers. I've read nearly all the 4228 reports over the last 3 years here and it is considered by most to be among the best UHF antennas made. I think its failure in any particular situation could easily be due to a strong reflection at a particular angle where one of the side lobes exists. A different antenna will usually have lobes at different angles and might work where the 4228 failed. The 4221 does have a much wider plot and would be more susceptible to multipath.

DanKurts

06-04-04, 05:44 AM

RobbyD
Every location is different, obviously. Of the ones I've done in Mill Creek, and a few others just south around 180th, 13 was not a major problem. The trick was finding a spot where they ALL would come in. The trees just tear up the signal waveshape. A 4228 gathers it all in, the 4248 doesn't. If you saw what it looks like on the analyzer/meter, across the entire 6mhz for an indivdual channel, it would tell the story, clearly! I can't say the 4248 is the perfect answer for Mill Creek, etc, but of the ones I've installed there, and in similar locations (terrain wise), the bow ties just didn't do it. I prefer to use the 4221, as it's easier to deal with, and works as well as the big 4228, in 99% of the places, when I've tried both. They can be mounted in more locations on a home, unlike the big yagi. I really wish they did work better, it would make installs cheaper and easier. Also, about half of the site surveys I've done there are pretty bad. I could only get two or three channels, and never the same ones. Sad part is, when you view the area with the Topo USA program, it looks great. What doesn't show is all the trees. Signal level is pretty good, usually. It's just the trees that put "holes" in that waveshape. Move a foot in any direction and it can be vastly different.
So, would I say the 4248 is the only one that will work there? Nope. But of the many types I've tried since HD signals started up, it has usually been the most consistent in these situations. I still carry a bow tie type and several yagi's to almost every job, as you can never tell what's going to work. If you're happy with the 4228, great. And if you only need one more for 13, then try a a yagi type and use a remote A/B switch. Or...... wait a week or so, and I'll give you the results of a combiner I'm going to test. It's supposed to be super-zoomy, has great specs and it's semi custom made, without the big price. Oh, and I found the 7775 was always needed in your area. Try it without, first, who knows? If no signal, then put the preamp on.
For FM, use an FM only yagi. Don't waste your time or money on the VHF/UHF/FM stuff. Winegard, AntennCraft and some others make some really nice 6 to 10ft FM only yagis. Good thing about our area is that 95% of all FM comes from Tiger Mt. The trees can be a problem, but it's still worth a shot. It's far better to use a big unamplifed FM then a small preamped one. Receivers are designed to work with very small FM signals, so It doesn't take much.

Litzdog
You would probably find the 4248 is not as fussy if it were outside. I realize you have other reasons for keeping it in the attic. What's happening is they get pretty touchy when you have all that wood around it. When I have tried to find a sweet spot inside an attic, the meter is all over the place. IF you can get it mounted outside, you may have better results.
Stay tuned for the ch13 combiner update, and let us know what your combiner tests show.

quarke
My comment on the 4228/4221 is from experience.
I don't doubt, and have seen many specs published for these and other antennas. I always like to find out how well an antenna performs, compared to it's advertised numbers. I've tried about every flavor of UHF antenna, even the ones from England, Europe, Canada and Japan. I'm always looking for that better mousetrap.
Specs are good for comparing one manufacturers antenna to another of his products. Not too accurate when comparing brand A versus B, as who knows what the testing conditions were? And in the real world, with the infinite number of variables (trees, hills, buildings, power lines, etc), it really makes it tough to figure out which antenna is right.
I'm sure that some have seen very narrow responses to moving their 4228's around, as viewed on the "strength meters" built in to their receivers. But that doesn't show what's really going on, as viewed on the analyzer. The actual waveshape is not that different off axis, but if there's a hole or peak in the signal picked up from some multipath, it can be just enough to upset the decoder, no picture, and it appears to be narrow. If you're in a good location, little multipath, then moving it won't make much difference over a wider range, allowing you to maximize signal from several towers. 4248 can't match that.
When I do an install, a flat waveshape and enough signal to make the decoder happy is what works. If I have a bow tie, I can move it MUCH farther, in almost any direction, than a yagi. This is good. It can give you more possible locations for that sweet spot. But sometimes, no matter where you aim it, you can't get it right. Bring in the yagi and the results of small movements make much larger changes. If multipath is the problem, the resulting analyzer waveshape is almost always flatter and easier to find that narrow path between the obstacles.
A good example is the antenna situation of one forum member I visited a few days ago. He has a great setup, 4228, 7775 preamp, high on the roof, on a rotor, so tweaking is easy from the armchair. Location is west of I-5, on 164th, north of Alderwood mall. He's just over the hill, but Topo program shows the signal is just skimming the tops of the hills. And some trees right in the way, but not heavy firs, just smaller decidous ones. We could move his 4228 over a 40 degree spread for some channels, others very touchy. Problem? Trees farther away. With every pass of the analyzer reading (takes about 3-4 seconds to do a full single channel sweep), the waveshape difference was as much as 15db, with peaks and valleys in different places of the sweep each time! Arrggh!! No wonder he was pulling out his hair. We then tried the 4248. Very narrow, less than 10 degrees for major changes in waveshape and levels. It did settle down the constantly varying waveshape some, but the decoder still couldn't handle the movement.
My observation, 4228 receiving some channels over 40 degree spread, varying waveshape. 4248, ten degrees maximum on same channels before it was gone. Waveshape changes far less, in height and level. Far better multipath rejection, as viewed on the analyzer.

I know some people are really into trying to get the most antenna for the buck, and that's good. However, only using the spec sheets as the reason for a choice can lead you astray. It may work, and all is good. If not, the only thing to go by is what others have tried and had good luck with. Of course, people tend to forget that every location is different.
I think some locations are made for the 4228/4221 style, and others, obviously, the yagi styles. Which is the best? The one that works where you are!
And if anyone wonders what I've used in a given area, e-mail me and we can work up a guesstimate for what might be appropriate.
Dan

Karyk

06-04-04, 08:27 AM

Last night during the Stanley Cup broadcast, KOMO was running an ad indicating they stayed on the Monorail fire longer than any other station! They don't have a clue. Remind your audience that you pissed them off big time. Real good business plan. :rolleyes:

litzdog911

06-04-04, 10:34 AM

Dan, excellent information! Glad to see you participating in this forum!

I will certainly let everyone know how my results go with combining my attic-mounted CM4248 with the SquareShooter for KCPQ-DT.

RobbyD

06-04-04, 01:58 PM

I've seen spectrum analyzers that cost $600+. Any suggestions on a decent analzyer with a reasonable price? I don't really want to lug a TV and receiver up on my roof to aim the antenna - and based on Dan's information above, I'd really like to know more about the signal than what my receiver's strength meter shows because I have had situations where the signal strength shows 80%+ but I still get lots of dropouts.

TAB

06-05-04, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Karyk
Last night during the Stanley Cup broadcast, KOMO was running an ad indicating they stayed on the Monorail fire longer than any other station! They don't have a clue. Remind your audience that you pissed them off big time. Real good business plan. :rolleyes:

Beauty. I completely agree. Another of my favorites is the 8 hour local coverage of snow dustings. It's like armageddon.
Tom

DanKurts

06-05-04, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by RobbyD
I've seen spectrum analyzers that cost $600+. Any suggestions on a decent analzyer with a reasonable price? I don't really want to lug a TV and receiver up on my roof to aim the antenna - and based on Dan's information above, I'd really like to know more about the signal than what my receiver's strength meter shows because I have had situations where the signal strength shows 80%+ but I still get lots of dropouts.

The one I use is a Sadelco. Its cost is about $1500, I think. I've not seen anything cheaper that really tells you what the story is. And, as with any instrument, you need to know how to read it and decypher the data into something usable. If you need help, call and we can arrange some troubleshooting time with the meter and my chubby self, and get answers to your questions about the reception and antenna.
Dan
206-794-3993

RobbyD

06-07-04, 04:45 PM

Thanks for the offer Dan! As it turns out, I had a little luck on the weekend.

After ALOT of trial and error, I managed to find the sweet spot. I placed my 4228 on a telescopic mast on my roof and at about 25' up, it seemed to work well. I was able to point it and catch most of the stations. My problem was that the signal was too strong (with multipath soup) and was giving my receiver some grief (at the antenna's base). But when I checked in the house (after long cable runs and splits), there was enough attenuation to clean it up for the receiver. My problem now was that it was too weak for some of the other stations like UPN, Pax and Fox. I had a pre-amp handy (26db) but it was too strong. I then placed an inline 10db amp from Radio Shack just before my splitter in the crawl space where it feeds the rest of the house and that did the trick. I now get the following stations all with one antenna in a stationary postion with NO audio/video dropouts after 12 hours of testing and counting:

KONG - IND - 31
KWPX - PAX - 32
KOMO - ABC - 38
KING - NBC - 48
KIRO - CBS - 39
KCPQ - Fox - 18
KCTS - PBS - 41
KTWB - WB - 25
KSTW - UPN - 36

On the roof, I noticed that there was a PBS on channel 27 but I seemed to have lost that one - but I don't care about it since I have another PBS station.

Some of the stations like 48 come in at 92% strength and the weakest ones (like Fox) come in at around 50%+.

I just need to finish up the guy wires and grounding and it'll be all done.

FYI - during the trial and error part, I did try a UHF only yagi from Radio Shack but the signal was too weak to get all the stations no matter what I did. I'm sure the CM 4248 would have been better but I didn't have one of those handy to test.

So for me, the 4228 is performing like a champ in the Canyon Park area.

I also noticed that PBS on 41 has alot of content on the subchannels.

Thanks again for all the tips!

quarque

06-07-04, 10:38 PM

Congrats RobbyD! Your situation looked like it might need a good mast. Can you tell me what the total height off the ground is now? Since you are far enough away from the towers you only needed to cover about a 30 degree spread bewteen towers - good candidate for a fixed orientation. My 4228 is doing the same job as yours at 60 degrees but much closer to the towers. My signal level from KCPQ and CH towers is only about 60% but very steady and I rarely get any dropouts on any channels. You have once again proved that persistence is 90% of the game.

RobbyD

06-08-04, 11:47 AM

It's been well over a day now and still getting perfect reception. All the guy wires are installed and all I have left to do now is run the ground.

It was a real treat watching the final game of the Stanley Cup in HD last night on ABC. Made the whole effort worth it.

I'll measure the total height when I climb back up there again and let you know.

stdunham

06-08-04, 07:39 PM

I am interested in getting an OTA HDTV receiver, but would like to have some idea of probability of success in pulling in signals first. I am located north of intersection of 18th Ave NE with NE 55th St. Any insight into what I might expect would be appreciated. I would plan to try indoor antenna from 3rd floor room.

Also, suggestions on OTA receivers that are effective in Seattle area would be nice as well.

quarque

06-08-04, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by stdunham
I am interested in getting an OTA HDTV receiver, but would like to have some idea of probability of success in pulling in signals first. I am located north of intersection of 18th Ave NE with NE 55th St. Any insight into what I might expect would be appreciated. I would plan to try indoor antenna from 3rd floor room.

Also, suggestions on OTA receivers that are effective in Seattle area would be nice as well.
Well you certainly have no problem with hills. Your biggest problem is that you are very close to the towers and will likely get all sorts of reflected signals (multipath). The other thing to note is the three major tower locations cover about a 90 degree spread. All of this indicates you need a low-gain directional antenna and you will probably have to rotate it to get Bremerton, but a single orientation (SSW) could probably pull in QA and Ch towers.

As for receivers, you might spend some time visiting the Hardware forum and read up on the latest models. The LG stuff is considered quite good and works well with multipath situations. The older generation receivers were not as good at multipath. Also read up on the new Square Shooter antenna - expensive but designed for your situation. A low-cost alternative for indoors is the Radio Shack double-bowtie - not usually stocked at stores these days. Or the Silver Sensor by Zenith is also popular - sold at several stores like Sears.

DanKurts

06-09-04, 03:47 AM

RobbyD
Well done. I have fun just trying to dial in some of these sites with my meter, so doing it with out one is really a true test of patience and desire for HD ! My hat's off to you.
CH 27 is KBTC PBS from Tacoma. It's a very low power transmitter, but in some areas it comes in suprisingly well. I have picked it up in Bothell, Kirkland and areas where it's almost line of sight. HD content is rather limited, from what I've seen, but they do have some good shows at night, when they run the HD sub channel.
As far as your "strength" goes, it's really signal to noise ratio, not level or amount of signal. I know the display says that, and it does give you a good idea when you have adequate signal amounts, but it's not really saying how much signal you're getting. Satellite is the same. I can get a reading of say 75%, but with actual levels of anywhere from -32db to -41db. It's also why you see so many people say they don't see any difference in their numbers when they add a preamplifier. Even though actual level goes way up, so does the noise level, some from the background noise in the amplifier, and some from amplifying harmonics and other external noise. Net result is you sometimes still have the same signal to noise ratio! It's a good thing you're getting numbers in the 60's and up. Just realize that whether you have 60 or 90, as long as it's steady and the decoder can lock in, it will still give you the same great picture. A further example is that, although Quarque is only getting 60% on his receiver for ch13, he may actually be getting far more level, it's just not a clean enough signal, either from noise or multipath or both. Last, as you've discovered, you can have too much signal, too.

stdunham
As quarque said, you're in a good area. The signal for all except ch13 is quite hot, and literally splatters off everything, or multipath. An indoor antenna is going to work, somewhat, but you'll find it fairly touchy. If you have a southern or southwestern view from one of your windows, try one of the small antennas, like the Silver Sensor or Squareshooter, but do NOT use the preamplifier if they have one. You might even want to try an adjustable attenuator from RatShack for some of the channels. If they aren't working, and you have the space, a 4221 Channel Master, set in a window facing south, will do a pretty good job of getting everything, if you don't have any big buildings in the way and the window is not an old lead glass type. Outside, I use these all the time in this area and they work well at getting all the channels without using a rotor. But they can easily overload a receiver, so the attenuator is a must.

For a receiver, you might look at the new Samsung SIR-TS360. It's a satellite and over air receiver, but you can use it without the dish for now, and upgrade later. The price on it is about the same as the older over air only model. I think Magnolia had them at a very good price, check it out. The older model SIRS-T165 had good sensitivity and selectivity, so this one should be even better.
Dan

Spike89

06-09-04, 06:47 AM

Just updating... I haven't had a chance to play with an attenuator with my ch 18 jointenna and CM4228 yet. Waiting for a rainy day to have an excuse to not be working outside.

DanKurts, have you had any experience with this companies products TRIAX (http://www.triax.dk/ifs/files/triax/is/presentation/home/Satellite_x_terrestrial/DTH_(Direct_to_Home)/Maste_elektronik/Filters_and_Combiners/Filters_and_Combiners.jsp) ?
Somebody posted this link over on the general antenna setup thread. The equipment looks promising, except the European TV frequency/channel assigments appear to be different than the USA (their UHF starts at channel 21, not sure what actual freq it is though), so it may not be applicable to ch 18 US applications.

-Mike

gabner

06-09-04, 04:07 PM

Mr. Dan Kurts,

It's good to see a familiar and trustworthy name. You helped me out quite a bit 2 years ago on "The Spot" home theater forums.

I'm moving to satellite now and would love to hire you for the dish installation. Let me know if your interested in doing that sort of thing.

Location is a little out for you. I'm in Port Orchard, WA.

Please send me an email at gaabner(at)hotmail(dot)com and let me know if your interested.

Thanks bud.

Gary

RobbyD

06-10-04, 03:11 PM

Just an update on info Quarque requested: looks like my total height off the ground is about 47 feet.

RobbyD

06-10-04, 09:17 PM

Ok - I knew my good fortune wouldn't last.

So I came home today and it's the first real overcast, wet and windy day since my installation. And sure enough, I got dropouts. In fact I all but lost 13 (FOX). Judging by the way the meter was moving up and down in spikes, it sure looks like multipath hell. But the odd thing was I now picked up bits of 44 and 50 which I never received before. So there's some fun going on in the atmosphere.

I'm basically of the mind now that OTA UHF is just plain plagued with problems. UHF reflects off trees and it reflects even more from wet trees (not a good thing for us Seattle folks). Couple that with the fact that I have yet to see some really good chipsets that can deal properly with multipath and I think UHF OTA is just one big headache.

So I think maybe it would make sense to simply subscribe to Comcast's HD locals - it's only $6.95/month. But they don't have all the locals yet and I've read in other threads that they experience alot of dropouts as well.

And satellite relies on OTA for locals.

So this is really depressing.

Dan - do you think it's worth a trip from you to give one last try to point my antenna? And even if you managed to do it - what's your experience been post installation. Do you typically hear about channels dropping out after the fact? My reception was perfect the last couple of days and now it's crappy. It will probably be perfect again tomorrow but that's still not good - I need consistency especially if I'm depending on this stuff for timeshifting.

quarque

06-10-04, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by RobbyD
Ok - I knew my good fortune wouldn't last.

So I came home today and it's the first real overcast, wet and windy day since my installation. And sure enough, I got dropouts. In fact I all but lost 13 (FOX). Judging by the way the meter was moving up and down in spikes, it sure looks like multipath hell. But the odd thing was I now picked up bits of 44 and 50 which I never received before. So there's some fun going on in the atmosphere.

Are you sure the wind did not change your antenna aim? You should be aimed SW edging towards WSW to help out 13. Keep in mind that compass readings are off 18 degrees in our area (magnetic north being 18 deg east of true north). Since you are getting some of 44 and 50 it sounds like you may be aimed to much towards south.

RobbyD

06-10-04, 09:55 PM

One thing I know for sure is my antenna has not budged. My entire roof would sooner fly off the house before that antenna would move ;)

But I thought the same thing as you when I started getting 44 and 50. And I was tempted to try and move the antenna but guess what, I've now begun receiving Fox again at about 70% consistently! (as of 6:50pm). And 44 and 50 are gone.

So I'm resigned to just seeing if Dan thinks it would be worth fine tuning with a spectrum analyzer.

If there was a better option for HD locals than OTA, I'd go there but unfortunatley, OTA is still the best option despite all its warts.

DanKurts

06-10-04, 10:57 PM

Mike
I hadn't seen the Triax products before. From the published specs, though, 20db depth and notch width of 2 side channels +/- is not very good, at least around here where levels can easily exceed that, and specially at your place, where I bet ch18 is at least 20db or more. I can't comment on the difference in frequencies between countries, just never looked it up. Ch18 digital is 495-501mhz, approx. I'm still waiting on some custom ch18 filters that might solve the problem, with far better "claimed" specs. We'll see when it gets here. I'll post the test results.

Gary
I'll e-mail you, and/or you can just call me at 206-794-3993. I enjoy the out of the way jobs. Breaks up the driving routine and there's a new challenge!

RobbyD
Your problem is most likely not multipath, or signals bouncing off all the trees. They usually have an effect of blocking signals. And yes, rain just makes them more dense. Now, throw in the wind, and it becomes a moving reception filter. You probably have a marginal signal, even though it worked for several days. What you can't see is how close to the edge of minimum reception requirements you really are. The meter will show that, even if the weather and trees are cooperating when we measure. At least you'll know what you're fighting, and we can give it a tweak, to see if maybe a rotor might help you, as well as a general check of your install.
Call me and we can set up a time.

Spike89

06-13-04, 04:17 AM

Weather was such that I got a reprieve from yard work on my days off, so went up into the attic to play with the ch 18 join-tenna some more.

First, as promised, as pic of my homebrew tilt mechanism for my CM 4228, a la plumbing and garage door parts:

This thing finally succumbed to being moved around so much that I took it down and mounted the 4228 directly to the mast. Anyway, I hooked up a variable attenuator (0-10 dB), and peaked the antenna for best reception for FOX. I took note of the signal readings on my HD300's ATSC test page, and saw that KING and KIRO were blasting in with almost the same levels, even though the antenna was aimed about 90 deg away from QA Hill. Not good. I then tried slightly re-pointing to try and put the QA signals into one of the nulls (thinking that they're being picked up by one of the back/side lobes on the 4228) but no luck. So then I hooked up the jointenna to the 4228 only, and it knocked KING and KIRO down about 10-15% if I recall. I then fired up the variable attenuator to full 10 dB of kill, brought everything down another 30%. I added another 6 dB in-line attenuator, and started getting some breakups on KING, KIRO and FOX, but still not enough reduction to eliminate the multipath when my main antenna was hooked up. They are all coming in so hot that anything I do to reduce signal on the 4228 also hurts ch 18. I think being in the attic is the biggest problem since unwanted signals are probably bouncing off the wall and right into the front of the 4228.

So I got adventurous, and using a small applet I found on the web I designed and built a cut-channel yagi for center freq of 497 MHz (ch 18). I cannibalized a rat-shack VU75 I had lying around. Pretty easy really, a pair of large wire cutters made short work of the aluminum tubing. I used the original boom and dipole (cut to the size spec'd for 497 MHz), and cut pieces from the removed VHF elements for the new directors and reflector. A drill and some screws finished it off.
So how did it work? If picked up ch 18 like a champ. 90-92 range from inside the attic. Unfortunately, it also picked up KING and KIRO in the 90 range as well. I think the front-to-back ratio wasn't so good and I was picking these up from the rear (when I rotated to shoot at the QA stations, they came in really poorly). Maybe a screen on the back might help. I'm going to test some more with it (outside this time), but it looks like I might be heading towards the purchase of the Blonder-Tongue cut channel 18 sometime down the road. I'll post my further test results with the homebrew yagi when I complete them.

Dan, I'll definitely be interested to hear how those custom filters work out.

-Mike

Spike89

06-13-04, 04:20 AM

Ooops, the image didn't post. I'll try again:

Spike89

06-13-04, 04:22 AM

and here's a shot of the homebrew ch 18 yagi:

DanKurts

06-13-04, 04:27 PM

Mike
The mount may look funky, but if it works, who cares!
Your ch18 antenna experiment looks ok, but, as you found out, if you can't get rid of ch18 from the main antenna via the combiner, it's not much help. Also, a cut for 18 is still going to get a lot of other UHF channels, as the frequencies wavelengths are so short to begin with. There's only about 6" difference between ch14 and ch67.
In my opinion, you might want to try the 4228 out on the roof. I still think it will be your best shot at everything in one. And, if you think you have too much level and want to eliminate the some of the size, it's not that hard to split in half and make it a 4221. It will most likely work just as well from where you are. Until you try those things, save your money and forget the cut for ch18 from BT.
I think your theory is fine for what you're trying to accomplish. If you spent 30 minutes with all your antennas and an analyzer/meter, the results would surprise you. You're going through the same struggle I did, trying to use my experience with analog reception. I really do feel your anguish!!
HD is a different critter, and the results of many installs were eye opening.
I'm hoping this will save you from further hair loss !!

When my filters get here, the results should be just what you're looking for, and you could use the home brew for ch18.
Dan

Ivan H.

06-13-04, 08:44 PM

My apologies if this is a little off-topic...

I spent a few hours trying to get a new satellite dish hooked up. I currently have a round dish, and tried to borrow my friend's oval dish to see if I could get it hooked up (with the eventual goal of being able to get DirecTV's HD package).

After a lot of playing around, I could get Sat A (101) with a very solid signal (which makes sense since I got a solid signal with my round dish). Sat B (119) was a little pickier though. I was able to get into a situation where I got decent (~70-80%) Sat B signals on all of the odd-numbered transponders, but not the evens - they gave no signal at all. This would cause my receiver to complain when acquiring channels, saying that it wasn't able to get all of the channels on the transponders and it may cause problems.

I'm assuming this is not good; should I continue playing around until I can get solid signals on all transponders for both satellites? My dish is staring directly at my chimney so I'm assuming that I'm on a border-line signal situation (in fact I'm surprised I get decent signals at all).

Also, one other question: is the Sat C LNB a "special" type of LNB, or is it the same as all other LNB's? Can I just pull the LNB off of my old round dish and just plug it into the Sat C. slot? Also, if I can get signals on Sat A and Sat B, then I should be able to drop in a Sat C LNB and a signal from that one without readjustment of my dish, right?

Ivan

wezar

06-13-04, 09:00 PM

Sat C lnb is a special Lnb. If you are an directv or even dish customer I am sure they would come out and install a dish for free. You might have to maintain a certain level of programming for a given time.

You really need to make sure you have the right sat c lnb: they are specific. Be accurate about the tilt setup on the oval dish. If part of the transponders are not comming in on a given satellite it might be your lnb.

If you don't have a clear line of site you must move the dish.

The new oval dish is integrated with all three lnbs.

Right. If you have the 101 and 119 sats dialed in the 110 or sat c lnb installation is simply just installing the lnb and combiner.

Spike89

06-14-04, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
Mike
...Also, a cut for 18 is still going to get a lot of other UHF channels, as the frequencies wavelengths are so short to begin with. There's only about 6" difference between ch14 and ch67....
When my filters get here, the results should be just what you're looking for, and you could use the home brew for ch18.
Dan

Thats what I was afraid of (that a cut for 18 would still pick up higher freqs). I'm going to play with a screen on the back of the homebrew to see if the unwanted channels are coming in the back side and can be eliminated. If that doesn't work, I'll probably hold off on any further "fun" pending your review of those filters. Thanks

-Mike

litzdog911

06-14-04, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
...
After a lot of playing around, I could get Sat A (101) with a very solid signal (which makes sense since I got a solid signal with my round dish). Sat B (119) was a little pickier though. I was able to get into a situation where I got decent (~70-80%) Sat B signals on all of the odd-numbered transponders, but not the evens - they gave no signal at all. This would cause my receiver to complain when acquiring channels, saying that it wasn't able to get all of the channels on the transponders and it may cause problems.

I'm assuming this is not good; should I continue playing around until I can get solid signals on all transponders for both satellites? My dish is staring directly at my chimney so I'm assuming that I'm on a border-line signal situation (in fact I'm surprised I get decent signals at all).

Also, one other question: is the Sat C LNB a "special" type of LNB, or is it the same as all other LNB's? Can I just pull the LNB off of my old round dish and just plug it into the Sat C. slot? Also, if I can get signals on Sat A and Sat B, then I should be able to drop in a Sat C LNB and a signal from that one without readjustment of my dish, right?

Ivan

The problem with the even transponders on Sat B (119-deg) might be due to a multiswitch problem, or even the wiring between the LNBs and the multiswitch on the back of your dish. It could also be the LNB. An easy way to rule out the LNB is to swap the Sat A and Sat B LNBs -- they're the same.

The Sat C LNB is unique. DirecTV has a promotion, I think it's still going, where you can get the Sat C upgrade kit for just the cost of shipping (less than $10 I think). Once you've got the oval dish aimed and getting strong signals on both Sat A and Sat B, you should be able to get Sat C fine. Provided that your chimney's not in the way!

Note that the dish may appear to aim at your chimney, but the satellites are actually located higher than the dish appears to aim. That's because the signals bounce onto the LNBs at an angle, not straight on. If you look at the dish from the side you should be able to see how the geometry works.

Karyk

06-14-04, 09:17 AM

Anyone else watching golf on KOMO yesterday. It went into a playoff, and right in the middle of what was to be the last hole, at 26 after the hour, they went into an infomercial! I assume it was a mistake.

I only tuned in a few minutes before, but if I'd watched the whole thing I'd have been PO'd. Also, apparently only on the West coast did the network feed continue into the playoff at all. Very strange.

Ivan H.

06-14-04, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
The problem with the even transponders on Sat B (119-deg) might be due to a multiswitch problem, or even the wiring between the LNBs and the multiswitch on the back of your dish. It could also be the LNB. An easy way to rule out the LNB is to swap the Sat A and Sat B LNBs -- they're the same.

Okay, so perhaps a little bit of background could provide some better insight.

Before, I had a round dish and a multiplexer (just a little box to split 2 cables into 4 signals). Both cables coming from the round dish went into the multiplexer, and from there I had two cables running to my DirecTiVo and a third cable running to a regular SD receiver. The fourth socket went unused.

The oval dish that I got from my friend used to perform the same function: of the four cables coming from the back of it, two went into a 2x4 multiplexer, and he had a similar setup of two cables going to a DirecTiVo and a third going to another receiver. The other two cables coming out of the dish (the oval dish has 4 cables coming out the back, instead of the two for my round dish) had rubber caps on them and went unused. I presumed that, since this was the same configuration, it should work the same for me.

Since you guys are suggesting that there may be a problem with the multiswitch that is manifesting as getting only odd/even transponders on Sat B, perhaps my setup is the problem. Instead of using my "external" multiplexer, should I just be utilizing the cables coming straight from the dish (e.g. instead of running the two "uncapped" cables from the dish to my multiplexer and connecting my receiver from there, should I just use 3 of the 4 cables coming straight from the dish)? I would think that since my friend had the same setup, it should be working fine for me, but I'm confused enough to be willing to try anything here. :)

Thanks for your help,

Ivan

Budget_HT

06-14-04, 07:32 PM

The difference between your friend's configuration and yours is your new HD receiver, which depends on signals from the 110 and 119 satellites for DirecTV HD channels. non-HD receivers (SD) typically only need the 101 satellite signals for nearly all SD channels of interest.

Your current multiswitch will only support signals from the 101 satellite. To get 110 and 119 satellite signals, you need to do as you have said--make the connection for your HD receiver directly to one the outputs on the dish (one that currently has a cover on it).

For your other receivers, if you only want the 101 satellite, you could still use your existing multiswitch to feed them. Or, you could run two more coax from the dish and eliminate the current multiswitch. Using this method, you could get any non-HD channels that might be available on 110 and 119 for your non-HD receivers. Last I checked, there weren't many English-speaking channels left on 110 or 119, but I could easily be out of date.

If it were me, I would go ahead and run two more coax down from the dish (for a total of four). That prepares you for future growth later without going back to the dish again. If you later need a fifth port for another receiver, you could add a 4x8 (or 5x8) multiswitch somewhere on or in the house where all four coax from the dish are available to connect to all four satellite inputs of the newer multiswitch. That newer multiswitch would have to be a cascading multiswitch to be compatible if you have a Phase III oval dish.

I'm not sure if your oval dish is a newer 18"x21" Phase III dish (with a multiswitch integrated into the LNB mounting arm) or an older 18"x24" 3-LNB dish (with an external multiswitch mounted on the back of the dish). The older dish might only have two LNBs installed, with space for another LNB between the other two. Let us know which dish you have

Good luck!

DanKurts

06-14-04, 07:42 PM

Mike
Still waiting on the filters, but I will update with test results when they arrive.
You should probably save your money on a cut for 18 antenna from BT. It's not going to make that much difference. Untill you can trap out 18 from the main antenna, at least to 30db, you'll still have some problems. UHF frequencies are so high that the wavelength difference between ch14 and ch67 is only about 6". VHF and analog are another story. I understand what you're trying to accomplish, have done the same thing for years. HD and digital, though, are another can of worms. If you saw what an analyzer/meter read on your system, it would make it all clear, to use a pun! I really suggest mounting the 4228 outside in place of the other antenna. If it's too big, use just half of it (effectively a 4221). With that pointed south, and the attenuators you have, you should be able to get the level usable and pull everything in.
Dan

Whoops!
Never mind, Mike.
Didn't realize my earlier post got through. Laptop crashed and didn't get it running right until today.

DanKurts

06-14-04, 08:50 PM

Ivan H
The results you got when aiming the dish are basically normal. The odd transponders on B are not being used. The B satellite requires the dish to be tilted slightly, and the oval dish helps with the gain. A regular round dish usually brings in numbers a little lower than the A satellite. Realize that those numbers are NOT signal level or amount, but signal to noise ratio. As long as they are steady, and above 60, you're usually okay. Your receiver shouldn't need the other transponders. The C LNB is different, and you need the combiner/filter that goes with it. The C satellite is between the A and B satellites. It is possible that your chimney might block the C signal. Without seeing it, it's hard to say. People tend to think that the satellite sends the signal to your dish like a laser beam. In reality. it's more like a giant flashlight covering all of the US. Your LNB needs to get as much coming in as possible, so anything around the reception path, even just near it, can cause the levels to drop. The angle you want is about 36 degrees above the horizon, or level. If the chimney is even partially in the way, it may cause the readings on the receiver to be low.
From what you've described so far, reception on the A and B should be okay. I would recommend using one of the newer type dishes with all 3 LNB's and switch in one molded piece. They have much higher gain, which should offset any small problems you may have with the chimney.
Dan

Ivan H.

06-15-04, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
Ivan H
The results you got when aiming the dish are basically normal. The odd transponders on B are not being used. The B satellite requires the dish to be tilted slightly, and the oval dish helps with the gain. A regular round dish usually brings in numbers a little lower than the A satellite. Realize that those numbers are NOT signal level or amount, but signal to noise ratio. As long as they are steady, and above 60, you're usually okay. Your receiver shouldn't need the other transponders. The C LNB is different, and you need the combiner/filter that goes with it. The C satellite is between the A and B satellites. It is possible that your chimney might block the C signal. Without seeing it, it's hard to say. People tend to think that the satellite sends the signal to your dish like a laser beam. In reality. it's more like a giant flashlight covering all of the US. Your LNB needs to get as much coming in as possible, so anything around the reception path, even just near it, can cause the levels to drop. The angle you want is about 36 degrees above the horizon, or level. If the chimney is even partially in the way, it may cause the readings on the receiver to be low.
From what you've described so far, reception on the A and B should be okay. I would recommend using one of the newer type dishes with all 3 LNB's and switch in one molded piece. They have much higher gain, which should offset any small problems you may have with the chimney.
Dan

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the info. I'm a little confused though - you're saying that it's okay that some transponders are coming in at 0? When acquiring channels, the receiver is giving me a warning that some transponders are not coming in, and as a result I may not get all of the channels. You're saying that this warning is acceptable?

It just sounds kind of weird to me - I haven't heard this elsewhere on the forums, and it seems unusual that an "error message" like this would be standard.

As for the dish type, I'm hoping to just buy my friend's oval dish for a few bucks if I can get it to work. My main concern right now is making sure it would be a worthwhile investment; if I can't get the signals from my location, then I won't even bother. This oval dish has an open spot for Sat C, so that should be fine for whenever I end up going HD. I don't have HD right now, but I'm making some big purchases next month so I want to see what my options are.

Thanks for the info. I'll keep y'all updated. :)

Ivan

Ivan H.

06-15-04, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Budget_HT
The difference between your friend's configuration and yours is your new HD receiver, which depends on signals from the 110 and 119 satellites for DirecTV HD channels. non-HD receivers (SD) typically only need the 101 satellite signals for nearly all SD channels of interest.

This isn't quite correct. I don't have a new HD receiver - all I really have is a DirecTiVO and an old Hughes standard receiver. My previous messages about playing with an HD receiver were just for OTA. Essentially my friend's setup was the same as mine, which is why I expect that it should be working for me as well.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I'm not sure if your oval dish is a newer 18"x21" Phase III dish (with a multiswitch integrated into the LNB mounting arm) or an older 18"x24" 3-LNB dish (with an external multiswitch mounted on the back of the dish). The older dish might only have two LNBs installed, with space for another LNB between the other two. Let us know which dish you have

Good luck!

I'm not entirely sure, but from you descriptions I believe I have a Phase III dish. The bottom of the LNB mounting arm says "Eagle Aspen ... Multi-Sat Multiswitch Y-Adaptor Mount". The dish itself is Winegard. There is no external multiswitch on the dish - it appears the multiswitch is in the LNB mounting arm.

This weekend, I will try again by connecting the third cable directly using the dish, instead of my external multiplexer, and see if I get any luck there. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks a lot for the help!

Ivan

Budget_HT

06-15-04, 10:00 AM

I have not actually seen a Phase III dish except from a distance. So I can't tell from your description which you have, except that if it only has 2 LNBs mounted, it is more than likely NOT a Phase III dish, in which case there should be a 4x4 or 5x4 multiswitch associated with it somewhere. Without the multiswitch, 2 of the outputs are on the 101 (A) LNB and 2 are on the 119 (B) LNB. In order to combine those signals to make them available to all receivers, a 4xN multiswitch is needed, with all 4 LNB outputs going to the 4 inputs on the multiswitch. The A & B LNB to multiswitch connections must be correct as labeled on the multiswitch. Looking from the back of the dish, the A LNB is mounted on the right and the B LNB is mounted on the left. Those two LNBs are identical except for their mounting positions.

If you have the older (non-Phase III) dish, you can order a Sat C LNB/Combiner kit by phone from DirecTV for just the shipping cost (less than $10). The C LNB that they supply is a special one that converts the received frequencies in a way to allow them to be combined with the B LNB frequencies. As Dan recommends, a newer Phase III dish would be the best choice for the reasons he stated. DirecTV will often offer the new dish as part of signing up for your HD receiver in advance, so it would be worth a call to them. They typically include the installation with the new dish.

Sorry if I am a bit confused about what you actually have there.

DanKurts

06-16-04, 03:22 AM

Ivan H
I'm saying if you get all the normal channels, then there's no real problem. Your Tivo is just getting fussy. If you see a message like " searching for satellite" when you go to a particular channel, then it can't find that appropriate transponder, or even satellite. That's a problem.

The error message is not standard, but then Tivo is a different critter, system wise, with more internal checks. It's really more of a PC, with a more sophisticated OS. Why is it whining? Who knows. Main thing is, if you can tune all the channels, including 376 NASA, which is on the B sat, then you're okay.

I also bet you have one of the early Terk style oval dishes. They were sold under different names, but all had the push-on LNB's. They had the multiswitch built into the end of the arm. It has 4 small gray coax cables coming out of the back end of the arm, normally, with female F fittings. And the heads connect to the switch by pushing them into F fittings that have no threads, like the cheap push on coax cables that come with some budget VCR's or satellite receivers. If you pull off the cover where the middle LNB goes, you'll see a single F fitting hole, slightly to the left side, with no threads and a small center conductor. The C LNB only has one output.
If this is the type dish you have, get rid of it. They will cause problems down the road when moisture gets into the LNB to switch connections. I have replaced many of these dishes.
It also means that every output cable from this dish is connected to the switch, not the LNBs. If you now put another standard A satellite only switch after it, using two of the cables to feed it, it will only get the A satellite. If you use all four leads and run them into a second switch, capable of switching A & B satellites, it must be of the type that passes the 22khz tone through to the first switch. If not, like another switch from an older dish that connects directly to the heads, then you won't receive anything from the B & C LNBS, because the tone, which is what tells it to switch over, never gets there. All you will see is two sets of A satellites.
Is your brain full, now?!
There is another way to check reception with a single LNB round dish.
If your receiver is capable of being set for a 3 LNB oval dish, and you can switch back and forth when testing the individual A B & C satellites, then set it for A, verify you get transponders 1 & 2 and a picture. Now set it for transponder 8, move it ten degrees to the west, or right, if you're behind it, don't change elevation, and you should see signal level again. Now changes transponders to 10 & 12. You should still see signal. Now go to transponder 22. You should see nothing. Now move it 10 more degrees to the west. You should see signal on 22, and all the even ones up to 32. When you go to 1, you should see nothing. Now move it back 20 degrees to the east and you'll see signal again.
You may not see 80 to 100, but you should see at least 60 in the B & C positions. These numbers will go up with the tilt and oval dish.

If at all possible, when your location checks out, get a new style dish.
You'll be much happier with it. Properly set up, there's no rain fade or other problems. They have very good gain, and even have a bubble sight in the top of the dish mounting arm, so you can make sure it's perfectly vertical in the east-west direction, and the north-south directions. Critical for getting all 3 satellites to lock in with good readings.

Bedtime!
Dan

Budget_HT

06-16-04, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
Ivan H
I'... including 376 NASA, which is on the B sat, then you're okay. ...

FYI, someone reported here (on AVS or TiVoCommunity Forum) recently that the NASA channel had moved to the 101 satellite.

litzdog911

06-16-04, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Budget_HT
FYI, someone reported here (on AVS or TiVoCOmmunity Forum) recently that the NASA channel had moveed to the 101 satellite.

Yes, that's correct. Best test channel for Sat B is now Channel 400, the Para Todos promo channel. It's also "in the clear" so that even an unsubscribed receiver can receive it. For Sat C the test channel is Channel 99, which is currentlly just a DirecTV logo display.

Joe Hendrix

06-17-04, 12:52 AM

HELP!!! Just picked up a Panasonic 60" LCD Projection TV, and have been trying to get a decent OTA signal. I pulled out this old "Archer" VHF/UHF antenna, and a few of the stations will come in for a little while, and then break up. The best station so far is KING, with KIRO, KOMO, and WB coming in second. Have tried a couple of other antennas (an RCA 1625) and a Terk, and the old Archer is still the best. Would going with an Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1Z) do the trick for me? Or, do I need to go with a rooftop antenna. I have an old rooftop antenna that I took down when I had Dish installed, and would hate to have to haul that thing back up. But, if I do need to bring it back out, which part of the antenna is for UHF, the big wires or the small wires? I haven't looked at it for a while, but I was thinking I could just hang the UHF portion of the antenna back up. The main reason I took it down is that a woodpecker was pecking at it every morning. Drove us crazy! Sounded like our pipes were bursting.

I live in South Colby, which is out towards Manchester/Port Orchard.

My address (if anyone needs it for mapping purposes) is

3325 Anderson Rd SE 98384. Some map programs have my zip code as 98366.

Any help would be appreciated.

DanKurts

06-17-04, 03:49 AM

Joe
You should be in a great location, unless you're buried in the trees. I couldn't see where on Anderson rd you were, but as long as you're house is not over the hill and down the west side of the road, deep into the gully, you should be fine. Ch13 is going to come in HOT, so you might have to knock the signal down 10db or more. You should still get plenty of level for Seattle. The antenna part you want is the small end, none of the big elements over 16-18".
Dan

litzdog911
Thanks for the info on the NASA channel.
Show's you how often I watch it!
Dan

Joe Hendrix

06-17-04, 01:06 PM

Thanks... I'm not in a valley, although it's difficult to say whether the trees are getting in the way.

Do you think I should try out the Silver Sensor or put back up the roof antenna?

Do you know where I can pick up the Silver Sensor? I went to the Circuit City web site, and they weren't listing it.

How do you knock the signal down 10db or more? Is this a function of the TV or the alignment of the antenna?

Budget_HT

06-17-04, 05:44 PM

Silver Sensor is available at Sears and other places.

"Knock down signal 10 db" is done with an inline attenuator that can be purchased at Radio Shack. Best choice is a variable attenuator (with a knob like a volume control) to adjust as needed. The attenuator is inserted between the antenna and the receiver input.

I wonder if you will have some inherent attenuation if you aim your antenna east toward Seattle Queen Anne Hill and Capitol Hill and then pick up KCPQ/Fox from the back or side of the antenna to the west/northwest toward Gold Mountain.

Have you looked at http://www.antennaweb.org yet to see what directions and distances apply to your home address?

DanKurts

06-19-04, 04:27 AM

Joe
A silver sensor, without the preamp, would probably work, but might be a little fussy indoors at that distance. If you have an antenna that looks like a Radio Shack 15-2151, or larger, you only need to use the front half. If you remove the back half, it would look like the 15-2160. (which, unfortunately isn't made any more.) That would work great, pointed at downtown, roughly towards the Space Needle. It's not that fussy about direction. You're only about 11 miles from the towers, and almost line of sight, unless the fir trees around you are thick. Ch13 will come in almost anywhere you aim the antenna, it's so close and hot, so don't worry about that. Just get the attenuator like budget suggested, and you should be able find a setting that will work. Start with zero or no attenuation, and then keep dialing in more, slowly, until they all lock in. A bowtie type antenna, like the 4221 would work great, but 13 might be a problem with one of those. The smal yagi type, for your location, would be better.
Dan

Joe Hendrix

06-19-04, 05:30 PM

I went out and picked up the Silver Sensor from Sears last night and hooked it up. Now, 4,5, 7 & 13 come in great (by that, I mean that I get a good solid picture for at least 20 minutes before a moment or two of pixelation comes and goes). Of course, it was a beautiful calm night last night, and no telling what would happen in bad weather. But now, I only get a tiny bit of 9, 16 and 22. I still haven't been able to pick up 11.

I may need to drag that old utdoor antenna out from underneath the blackberry bushes (ughh), and put it back up, so I can at least channel 9.

Is picking up OTA DTV channels always this problematic? Would it help if these channels boosted their signals? Do you think that is in the works, as more and more people are buying HDTV's?

litzdog911

06-20-04, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by Joe Hendrix
I went out and picked up the Silver Sensor from Sears last night and hooked it up. Now, 4,5, 7 & 13 come in great (by that, I mean that I get a good solid picture for at least 20 minutes before a moment or two of pixelation comes and goes). Of course, it was a beautiful calm night last night, and no telling what would happen in bad weather. But now, I only get a tiny bit of 9, 16 and 22. I still haven't been able to pick up 11.

I may need to drag that old utdoor antenna out from underneath the blackberry bushes (ughh), and put it back up, so I can at least channel 9.

Is picking up OTA DTV channels always this problematic? Would it help if these channels boosted their signals? Do you think that is in the works, as more and more people are buying HDTV's?

Joe, all over-the-air reception is challenging in our area, thanks to lots of trees and hills. Finding the right antenna setup for your particular location is more art than science. And, unless you're really close to the transmitters, or really blessed, an indoor antenna will probably prove insufficient.

As Dan pointed out, you don't need to put up the whole antenna to receive just the UHF DTV transmissions. Try one of the outdoor antennas that he recommended -- that will be much smaller and less noticable than an old VHF/UHF yagi antenna.

Most of the DTV transmitters are running at their full power, and it's doubtful they'll ever raise their power. The big exception for us right now is Channel 11's DTV transmitter, which is expected to increase to their full power later this summer.

Ivan H.

06-20-04, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Joe, all over-the-air reception is challenging in our area, thanks to lots of trees and hills. Finding the right antenna setup for your particular location is more art than science. And, unless you're really close to the transmitters, or really blessed, an indoor antenna will probably prove insufficient.

Unfortunately, since some of us are living in apartments, putting up an outdoor antenna sometimes isn't an option. :(

Joe Hendrix, I've had some good results with the Silver Sensor; the big problem that I had though was that it was a little too directional. I was able to pick up 5, 7, 9 in one spot, and then 4 and 13 in another, and 11 in yet another. This is probably more a result of bad multipath, but regardless it meant that I couldn't watch all of the channels in one spot. There was usually a particular spot where I could get a channel in high 60's-low 70's, but no one magic place for everything.

I'm getting the Radio Shack double bow-tie; I've heard it gets unusually good results, and want to see if it makes a difference. Fortunately I can just return it if it doesn't work out.

btw, for those who are interested, I managed to get my friend's oval dish properly mounted. I took out my external multiswitch from the mix and just ran an extra cable directly from the dish; it seems to be fine now. Now the next question is whether I can pick up Sat C (once I get the appropriate LNB) from the dish's current orientation - it's still largely pointing at my chimney, although the fact that I'm picking up A and B seems to suggest it shouldn't matter. I'll let you guys know what happens. :)

Ivan

Budget_HT

06-20-04, 07:01 PM

Ivan:

Glad to hear you got your satellite reception issues resolved.

We'll keep reading here to see your progress reports.

litzdog911

06-21-04, 02:17 AM

Wondering if it's just me ....

On several KOMO-DT Dolby Digital broadcasts I've noticed that the audio is not quite in synch with the video. It was quite obvious tonight watching "Bicentennial Man", and I've also noticed it on Drew Carey.

My receiver is an HR10-250 DirecTV+Tivo connected to a Sony STR-DA4ES Dolby Digital Receiver via optical audio. I don't see this problem on KING-DT, KIRO-DT, or any of the DirecTV HiDef channels.

Karyk

06-21-04, 08:55 AM

It's a somewhat recent problem for me, but on Comcast and OTA. It seemed to start (and was worse) around the time of the NBA Finals.

drewba

06-21-04, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Wondering if it's just me ....

On several KOMO-DT Dolby Digital broadcasts I've noticed that the audio is not quite in synch with the video. It was quite obvious tonight watching "Bicentennial Man", and I've also noticed it on Drew Carey.

My receiver is an HR10-250 DirecTV+Tivo connected to a Sony STR-DA4ES Dolby Digital Receiver via optical audio. I don't see this problem on KING-DT, KIRO-DT, or any of the DirecTV HiDef channels.

I've noticed that OTA as well

Budget_HT

06-21-04, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by drewba
I've noticed that OTA as well

Me too.

LLToolbox

06-21-04, 01:26 PM

I'm a newby. I live in Duvall, about a mile up Big Rock Road on a pretty decent hill. I've been using directv with the round dish for several years with no problems. I've just ordered an HR10-250 and an eliptical dish. Now I'm starting to research OTA. I have a two story house with an accessable attic. It seems like the CM4228 would be a good starting place.
Am I on the right track ?
Also, I'm new to the whole forum thing as well. Let me know if I've dinked this up !
Thanks.

litzdog911

06-21-04, 02:15 PM

litzdog911

06-21-04, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Karyk
It's a somewhat recent problem for me, but on Comcast and OTA. It seemed to start (and was worse) around the time of the NBA Finals.

Glad to know it's not just my equipment. Has anyone here contacted KOMO about this audio synch problem? I plan to send them an email today.

LLToolbox

06-21-04, 02:48 PM

Thanks for the quick reply litzdog911 !
I saw older posts where the member (Larry maybe?) helping folks out with his software. How do I flag him ? I'm at 28216 NE 140th Place.
Thanks again.

litzdog911

06-21-04, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Thanks for the quick reply litzdog911 !
I saw older posts where the member (Larry maybe?) helping folks out with his software. How do I flag him ? I'm at 28216 NE 140th Place.
Thanks again.

Yeah, that's quarque. He usually checks here every day or two. You could also send him a private mail through this forum.

quarque

06-21-04, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Thanks for the quick reply litzdog911 !
I saw older posts where the member (Larry maybe?) helping folks out with his software. How do I flag him ? I'm at 28216 NE 140th Place.
Thanks again.
LL - I checked your location. You have a hill 3 miles WSW of you that could give you trouble if your antenna is too low to the ground. The attic is worth a shot but be prepared to go to the roof if you can't get steady reception. The 4228 is a popular antenna but sometimes other antennas work better. It is difficult to predict for any given location. A preamp is not absolutely necessary unless you know you will have a very long cable run to the receiver.

Good luck!

Larry

quarque

06-21-04, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Glad to know it's not just my equipment. Has anyone here contacted KOMO about this audio synch problem? I plan to send them an email today.
This has been an ongoing problem with KOMO/ABC for a long time (about a year now). It seems to be the worst on network shows and mostly DD 5.1 audio. Their engineers have been contacted many times and are "working on it". I think it is partly a network problem since other forums have talked about ABC sync issues as well. It certainly would not hurt to remind them it is still a problem. One thing suggested when you see the problem is to change channels and change back a few times to see if it will sync up. I have seen this work on my system a few times.

quarque

06-21-04, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Wondering if it's just me ....

On several KOMO-DT Dolby Digital broadcasts I've noticed that the audio is not quite in synch with the video. It was quite obvious tonight watching "Bicentennial Man", and I've also noticed it on Drew Carey.

I noticed it on Bicentennial Man as well. It did not bother me too much because I was too engrossed in the one-liners by Williams:
"He might run amuck!"
"One is not qualified to run mucks."

A little OT, sorry, but I still laugh every time I think about it...

LLToolbox

06-21-04, 11:10 PM

I have another newby question for anyone.
I currently have my TV antenna hooked up to a multi-switch along with my satellite feed to distribute throughout the house. When I get my HD OTA antenna up, can I hook it up the same as I did my old antenna ?

NHLFAN

06-22-04, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
I'm a newby. I live in Duvall, about a mile up Big Rock Road on a pretty decent hill. I've been using directv with the round dish for several years with no problems. I've just ordered an HR10-250 and an eliptical dish. Now I'm starting to research OTA. I have a two story house with an accessable attic. It seems like the CM4228 would be a good starting place.
Am I on the right track ?
Also, I'm new to the whole forum thing as well. Let me know if I've dinked this up !
Thanks.

Hi Neighbor,

I live just around the corner from you...We have a great spot for receiving OTA HD broadcasts.

I first started indoors with a Silver Sensor (set top) and had great reception...IF I didn't walk in from of it that is..!

I just put up a Rat Shack U75R last month on the roof line (single story for me) and with the exception of UPN 11 ...The rest of the channels come in great!!!

Only on rainy days do I receive channel 11...I read somewhere on here they temporarily have change signal strength and direction.

Thanks to this board I've learned alot about local OTA HD...I've been lurking around for months now....and I'm glad I'm NOT the only with audio sync problem on KOMO 4-1.

good luck and enjoy...!

DanKurts

06-22-04, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
I have another newby question for anyone.
I currently have my TV antenna hooked up to a multi-switch along with my satellite feed to distribute throughout the house. When I get my HD OTA antenna up, can I hook it up the same as I did my old antenna ?

LL
Yes and No.
It's possible that an antenna alone may get you enough signal that you could use the diplexer and run it through the satellite cable. However, the losses of doing that, coupled with the increase in noise, will most likely make it a real challenge. If you do use a preamp, it would help overcome the losses and raise your signal to noise ratio some, so it might work. You MUST, however, put the preamp power supply before the diplexer your current antenna is connected to. You cannot mix the power supplies of the satellite and preamp.

I have done several jobs near you, and a survey just around the corner on 140th and 285th circle. Quark is right, there is a big hill on the other side of the valley, called Novelty Hill and Union Hill, loaded with thick trees, a good mile worth of them. The signals just kiss the top of that hill, not counting the trees. And there's a few trees around you, too. There is signal over there to work with, but it's really chopped up, when you view it on an analyzer. The 4228's don't seem to do as well as the 4248's. Mounting it outside wil give you a far better chance of adequate reception. Finding the sweet spot is the trick. The signal really has to thread it's way through the trees. 6" in any direction can make or break it, really.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

LLToolbox

06-22-04, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
LL
Yes and No.
It's possible that an antenna alone may get you enough signal ....
Dan

Great info Dan, thank you. When I added an LNB several years ago, I ran an extra RG6 from the dish position on my roof throught the crawl and into my living room, so a path it there. I'm just not looking forward to doing it again ! That said...I'd rather do the job right the first time limit the dinking around. The run is fairly long, 75..100' if I remember correctly.

Do you think a preamp and home run of RG6 is a better option than using the diplexer ?

I think I remember reading some of your posts earlier. Do you do site surveys for around $100 ? If so, is that something I would have done before I purchase an antenna ?

Thank you so much for the help...everybody. This is the best forum experience that I've had.

litzdog911

06-22-04, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Glad to know it's not just my equipment. Has anyone here contacted KOMO about this audio synch problem? I plan to send them an email today.

Got a prompt reply from KOMO regarding the audio synch problems with KOMO-DT .....

Yes, we are aware of the audio sync problem and have been working to identify the source of the problem. It is related to our transmitting Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. Rest assured that we will get this resolved as soon as we can.

Thanks for your interest in KOMO's digital broadcasts.

Don Wilkinson
Fisher Communications
KOMO-TV, KOMO-DT

LLToolbox

06-22-04, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by NHLFAN
Hi Neighbor,

I live just around the corner from you...We have a great spot for receiving OTA HD broadcasts....

Flag me down if you're ever on my street. I'm outside a lot on weekends.
We're in a multi-colored Victorian next to a pink one. My neighbor across the street is working on the new Microsoft HD DVDs, so I'm picking his brain as well.

DanKurts

06-23-04, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Great info Dan, thank you. When I added an LNB several years ago, I ran an extra RG6 from the dish position on my roof throught the crawl and into my living room, so a path it there. I'm just not looking forward to doing it again ! That said...I'd rather do the job right the first time limit the dinking around. The run is fairly long, 75..100' if I remember correctly.

Do you think a preamp and home run of RG6 is a better option than using the diplexer ?

I think I remember reading some of your posts earlier. Do you do site surveys for around $100 ? If so, is that something I would have done before I purchase an antenna ?

Thank you so much for the help...everybody. This is the best forum experience that I've had.

LL
Yes, if you can, a separate run is far better. Use a 7775 preamp, too. It may not be needed on all channels, but it sure can't hurt, will help the long run and may bring in some of the weaker ones like 11, 13, 16 and 5. You don't have to worry about overloading. Surveys out there are $75. It's not required to have one done, but it will tell you how many channels you'll get and how easy or difficult the install will be, and give you an idea of cost.
Dan

Ivan H.

06-23-04, 03:45 AM

So, for my OTA efforts, I got a Radio Shack DBT online and it arrived today. I've read through many other threads in these forums that the DBT gets unusually good reception for its price. I had had reasonably good success with a previous attempt with a Zenith Silver Sensor, but found that it was a little "too" directional - I would only get certain channels in certain spots. I was hoping with a larger, less-directional antenna like the DBT I might have better luck. As you may have read in some of my earlier posts, I'm in an apartment and an outdoor antenna is not really an option.

As far as I can tell, I'm still getting average results. I'm still only able to get signals in certain spots for certain channels. I've managed to find one spot that gets me a reasonable signal from 4, 5, 7, and 11... but not 13. I really need to find a solution that will get me all the channels - I'm going to get frustrated if I have to adjust the antenna everytime I flip to a particular channel.

Worse yet, the signal I'm getting is not extremely consistent. It will hover in the high-50's to low-60's (which is definitely good enough for a steady picture), but occasionally will dip low enough to cause some stuttering. I'm hoping that part of this might be due to the old (and somewhat crappy) OTA box I'm using; will a newer model help with this a bit?

In my amateur opinion, I believe I'm just suffering with some really bad multipath, which would explain why signals will occasionally dip from reasonably strong to pretty weak. If anyone has any good suggestions for other cheap indoor antennas or alternative solutions, I'd love to hear 'em. Probably I'm just going to keep moving my DBT around until I hopefully find a sweet spot that works.

One other point I should make: the main reason I'm going through all of this effort is because I have D* and want to get locals on HD. Do people here have good experience with Comcast HD? I know they don't have KIRO, but aside from that is it worth the price? Good quality? I'd hate to consign my DirecTivo to obsolescence, but I wants my HD... :)

Ivan

speedy777

06-23-04, 03:55 AM

LLToolbox:
You may want to give CM4228 a trial without the preamp. I received all the channels but ch#9 seems to give me problem sometime. I added preamp CM7777 and it become worst because the signal just too strong.

speedy777

06-23-04, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Ivan H.
So, for my OTA efforts, I got a Radio Shack DBT online and it arrived today. I've read through many other threads in these forums that the DBT gets unusually good reception for its price. I had had reasonably good success with a previous attempt with a Zenith Silver Sensor, but found that it was a little "too" directional - I would only get certain channels in certain spots. I was hoping with a larger, less-directional antenna like the DBT I might have better luck. As you may have read in some of my earlier posts, I'm in an apartment and an outdoor antenna is not really an option.

As far as I can tell, I'm still getting average results. I'm still only able to get signals in certain spots for certain channels. I've managed to find one spot that gets me a reasonable signal from 4, 5, 7, and 11... but not 13. I really need to find a solution that will get me all the channels - I'm going to get frustrated if I have to adjust the antenna everytime I flip to a particular channel.

Worse yet, the signal I'm getting is not extremely consistent. It will hover in the high-50's to low-60's (which is definitely good enough for a steady picture), but occasionally will dip low enough to cause some stuttering. I'm hoping that part of this might be due to the old (and somewhat crappy) OTA box I'm using; will a newer model help with this a bit?

In my amateur opinion, I believe I'm just suffering with some really bad multipath, which would explain why signals will occasionally dip from reasonably strong to pretty weak. If anyone has any good suggestions for other cheap indoor antennas or alternative solutions, I'd love to hear 'em. Probably I'm just going to keep moving my DBT around until I hopefully find a sweet spot that works.

One other point I should make: the main reason I'm going through all of this effort is because I have D* and want to get locals on HD. Do people here have good experience with Comcast HD? I know they don't have KIRO, but aside from that is it worth the price? Good quality? I'd hate to consign my DirecTivo to obsolescence, but I wants my HD... :)

Ivan

Ivan H.
If the CM4228 is too big, you can use another bowtie for other channel like 13 with an A/B switch. I believe there is an electronic A/B switch that use remote so no need to get up the sofa. I used to have the silver sensor and it painful to get up rotate the antenna daily. You may want to try another spot and see if the other channels you want come in before purchase another bowtie. If not, the CM4221 may be a better because it's half the size of CM4228 and cover range is better. Ace Hardware use to carry them.

DanKurts

06-25-04, 03:13 AM

Ivan H
Comcast HD is okay. Not quite as good as an over air antenna, a tiny bit more grainy picture, but I'm sure it's due to the quality of the video outputs on the Comcast box and not the HD programming or cable carrier. Side by side, you can see a difference, but if you can't get over air, it's a great alternative. The downside is dealing with the cable company and the monthly charge. If you can handle that, it will definitely solve your problems. Reception in an apartment, as you've noted, can be a real challenge!

Dan

Also, if your Tivo is the new HD model, you cannot record Comcast HD on it. Comcast says they're coming out with their own Tivo HD unit, not sure if it's here yet.

Budget_HT

06-25-04, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
... Comcast says they're coming out with their own Tivo HD unit, not sure if it's here yet.

Comcast is coming out with an HD DVR, but it will not be a genuine TiVo. Their DVR functionality will be somewhat less than a TiVo and closer to that of a VCR. If you have been a TiVo owner/user, you may be disappointed with something less. Of course, YMMV.

Karyk

06-26-04, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by DanKurts
Ivan H
Comcast HD is okay. Not quite as good as an over air antenna, a tiny bit more grainy picture, but I'm sure it's due to the quality of the video outputs on the Comcast box and not the HD programming or cable carrier.

I find Comcast HD and HD OTA to be comparable, although I'm connecting through DVI for Comcast. Maybe the Moto boxes don't have that good of component out.

Unfortunately, there's a bug in the DVI-HDCP implementation which is a PITA. You have to turn on the box after your TV's input is set to the box, and turn it off before you turn the TV to another input. That started with a service "upgrade" about a month ago.

I've also heard the Moto DVRs are total junk.

deelmakur

06-26-04, 04:22 AM

I'm a part time Seattle resident, with a place on the west side of QA Hill. DirecTV, with my own OTA antenna. Can never get KING DT, and have a lot of trouble with KOMO DT and KONG DT, although KIRO DT is always hot. With the towers so close to each other, and to me, it has been a mystery. My suspicion has been it's a P-SIP problem (if injection falls below a 2 or 3, most STB's won't get program). I called KOMO, and they did something, because the service came back immediately, however KING and KONG were unhelpful, and the engineering person I spoke with was downright unpleasant (sort of, "do you think you know more than us?"). The result is spotty KONG, and no KING. Everything else is great. As for antennas, I have tried a bunch. Forget the TERK 45. Tried a pair of Radio Shack corner reflectors, then had a good bit of luck with a CM "cat whisker", but the guy across the street complained I messed up his view, so I pulled it and installed that new Winegard (I call it the "pizza box"), which was another placebo. Finally took my Silver Sensor to the upper deck, and plugged it into the chain. Bingo, great pictures on everything but the famous 5-1. Go figure.

DanKurts

06-27-04, 01:09 AM

deelmaker
The west side of the hill is tough.
The signal is really shooting over your head. What you pick up is standing waves rolling off the towers, not clean signal.
Then, if you look at the transmitting pattern, when viewed from directly over the tower, the patterns are not 360 degrees, like you would think. Ch5 is a figure 8 pattern, with the lobes running North/South, much less East/West, ch's4 & 7 are like the letter D, with the weak spot to the west.
To make it even worse, the actual HD antennas are not on the top, but about 75ft down the East side of each one, so it's going through the tower structure to get to you.
Reception is very spotty anywhere on the sides of the hill. It's even tough on top! I know, I grew up there. I used to help my friends with there analog antennas years ago, very tough to get it clear. When Cable came in the mid 70's, almost everyone hooked up, and ran through a converter box to get away from ingress, or direct pickup problems in TV's and poor cable connections.
What you might do is try different locations, and angles on the antenna. This is one time where it really will make a difference. 6" in any direction can make some major changes. And try a RatShack attenuator. It's not uncommon to get huge amounts of signal from almost nothing of an antenna.
Dan

deelmakur

06-27-04, 01:50 PM

A pair of Silver Sensors, running through a Radio Shack splitter, did the trick, except with 5-1. Just can't get enough signal from KING DT. Curiously, KONG comes in great. I assume they are co-located. I'm also still suspicious that the KING thing may be P-SIP related.

quarque

06-27-04, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by deelmakur
A pair of Silver Sensors, running through a Radio Shack splitter, did the trick, except with 5-1. Just can't get enough signal from KING DT. Curiously, KONG comes in great. I assume they are co-located. I'm also still suspicious that the KING thing may be P-SIP related.
We haven't really had any PSIP issues with the locals for almost 2 years now, so I think your problem is strictly location. Being that close to the towers will put you in the midst of mass reflections that are as strong as the original signal. You should feel lucky to get as many channels as you do! Your problem with KING may be too much signal. As Dan suggested, try a variable attenuator.

Ivan H.

06-27-04, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by deelmakur
A pair of Silver Sensors, running through a Radio Shack splitter, did the trick, except with 5-1. Just can't get enough signal from KING DT. Curiously, KONG comes in great. I assume they are co-located. I'm also still suspicious that the KING thing may be P-SIP related.

So, this brings up a good question from me: if I'm able to get some channels with the antenna in one spot and the other channels with the antenna in another spot, does that mean I can get two antennas and join them together with a combiner/splitter or something and they will work well? I'm looking for something simpler than a Jointenna or something.

For instance, with the antenna in one spot I get a bunch of channels pretty well but channel 13 pretty much at 0. If I get a second antenna and put it into a position where I get 13 well, would this work for me? I've heard that two antennas will sometimes just interfere with each other with their signals.

Ivan

quarque

06-27-04, 11:38 PM

Ivan - the "simpler" approach is to use an A-B switch. There are several with remote control capabilities. Unless you do a lot of automated recording off OTA this may be the best solution. I used to use a manual Rat Shack one before I put my CM4228 on the roof. Trying to join 2 antennas can be tricky at best.

deelmakur

06-27-04, 11:44 PM

Thanks for the thought on KING. I had already tried an attenuator.I just get very low signal. As for two antennas, as many on this forum know, you can just go to Radio Shack and buy a 10 dollar combiner/splitter. Use it in reverse. Put each antenna in its own input on the 2 element side, then run a single coax line out of the single element side to the set or STB. Keep them a few feet from each other, to be safe with regard to cross interference.

quarque

06-28-04, 09:47 PM

deelmakur - sounds like you need Dan to come over and have a look-see with his spectrum analyzer. It's pretty difficult to tell what is going on without some tools. Your point about combiners needs to include the YMMV warning. Many people have had little or no success with them because both antennas were picking up the same signal but out of phase. As you probably know this reduces the effective signal and causes many receivers to have a hissy fit. Some of the newer generation units have better front-ends and new decoding/filtering that deals much better with this situation.

litzdog911

07-05-04, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
....

I went ahead and ordered a CM7775 preamp from Warren Electronics. I also ordered a Join-Tenna for UHF Ch 18 in case I need to use my SquareShooter to "add" KCPQ-DT to my Seattle stations. They said it could 2-3 weeks because the JoinTenna is a special order item.

I'll post back when I hopefully have this setup working well.

This thread has been rather quiet the past few days .... hopefully everyone is enjoying the 4th of July holiday!

I promised an update on my experience with the Channel Master JoinTenna, and it's looking good. My Winegard SquareShooter is mounted outside aimed towards Bremerton for KCPQ-DT on Ch 18, which is now combined with a CM4248 Yagi mounted in my attic aimed at Seattle. The combination seems to working well. The signal meter on my HR10-250 HD DirecTivo showed no changes on the Seattle stations, except for the addition of KCPQ-DT on Ch 18 with solid signal.

I haven't installed the preamp yet since this setup seems to be working fine without it. I'll give it some time, though, to see how varying weather conditions change things.

Joe Hendrix

07-05-04, 05:56 PM

I finally put up my old outdoor UHF antenna, and pointed it the best I could. Now I get 4, 7, 9, 16 rather well. I had to set up the indoor antenna for channel 5 (which is weird, since it's in the same direction as 4 & 7). Channel 11, 13, and 22 come and go.

A friend of mine says that he has a booster that he'll loan me. I'll try to see what that does with my reception.

speedy777

07-06-04, 03:08 AM

Renton Fry's Electronics do have 8 Channel Master 4228 antennas left on the pallet as Monday July 4. If you need one, grab its soon. Good luck!

commandline

07-09-04, 12:33 AM

Has anyone had any success receiving Seattle DTV from Skagit Valley. Burlington/Mt. Vernon and surrounding. The numbers seem to say so, but i'm looking for persons who are or have done this.

quarque

07-09-04, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by commandline
Has anyone had any success receiving Seattle DTV from Skagit Valley. Burlington/Mt. Vernon and surrounding. The numbers seem to say so, but i'm looking for persons who are or have done this.
That puts you in the 50-60 mile range which is definitely possible. To have any chance at all you will need a good antenna and an absolutely clear path to the towers. If you care to post your nearest intersection or PM your address I can check your line of sight for you. There are some high areas south of you but it depends on which side of I5 you are on.

commandline

07-10-04, 02:02 AM

HWY 20 and HWY 9(township)

in Sedro-wooley is about 6mi east of I5. Antenna web gives mixed results for addresses in my hood. pole is on peak of garage 12ft about on mast 30ft for about 40/45ft total from road elevation. Planing on using the Yagi channel master um, can't think of the number, common use for 60+mile with a 7775 preamp. can add another 10 ft section, have one for that purpose.

quarque

07-10-04, 08:10 PM

Well, maybe another 1000 feet of mast would do it. You have Devil's Mountain about 10 miles to the south at 1500 feet high. That pretty much kills it for the Seattle towers. You have a 900 foot peak to the SW blocking Bremerton. I guess I would go with cable or dish because the best you will get OTA will be reflected signals and that will drive you crazy.

commandline

07-12-04, 02:21 AM

Well I was just about to throw in the towel but I had some time to kill. I went up to my parents shed and pulled out the new/old Radio shack. This is a huge one, we had it up in alger, if i recall it's the longest one they make, and we only had it in the air about 6 months. I added another 10ft section and put it up and aimed it for seattle. I don't have my OTA receiver but the analogs are coming in pretty good, I'd call it a 8 out of 10. I can get 4,5,7,9,11, 13 is ghosting but I can twist a little to the east and it clears up a bit. All of them are a little bit directional, I think it's the reflections you speak of. Btw, i'm only using RG-59 at 75ft. (leftovers from last install) and no amp atm. I can see the Mt. your talking about but from here it looks alittle more to the east of me. I ordered Voom, and talked to the local installer, He said that he has installed and successfully received the seattles in my area. I'll let Voom flip the bill and see what happens. So far i'm in only the cost of the guy wire and hardware, less than 50 dollars.

I'll reply when Voom comes by let you all know what the digitals look like if at all.

mlm6819

07-12-04, 01:35 PM

Hey everybody,

Thanks for the Seattle OTA information. I entered the HDTV world about a month ago with a Samsung Sir-t151 and a Terk TV55, both from EBay.
The Sir-t151 worked OK, but it didn't have DVI and couldn't get all the channels even with the TV55 on the roof.
I sent the Sir-t151 back and got a Sir-T351. I was hoping to get better reception, but no such luck. I read this string and found out how poorly you guys rate the TV55. I live off 132nd and 182nd in Woodinville, on a hill, and I couldn't even get all three networks. This forum educated me, so I decided to try a Radio Shack U-75R UHF for 25 bucks. Unamplifed, on 50 feet of RG-6, sitting in the back yard on the grass, and I get all three networks. My house is also surrounded by tall trees. My El-cheepo Radio Shack antenna is now mounted on my chimney, 20 feet off the ground, and I get all the local channels, including fox. UPN 11 is hit or miss, everything else, KIRO, KOMO, KCTS, KONG, KING, KCPQ, KTWB, and the two shopping channels are at least 7/10 bars.

Thanks for the info.

Joe Hendrix

07-12-04, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by speedy777
I purchased a preamp CM7777 to boost channel #9 but couldn't use it. It's just too much signal which affect channel #22. Anyone interest send me a private email. The CM7777 come complete with power supply and only 2 days old. I live about 2 miles West from Fry Electronics in Renton.

Price: $60.0

I might be interested, if you are still trying to sell it.

LLToolbox

07-13-04, 09:47 PM

Hey All,

I've received some great advice from this thread. Thank you everyone.

I just installed an antenna today and I'm thrilled with the outcome so far.
I'm 1 mile up Big Rock road in Duvall. I installed a CM 4228 in the attic above my garage. It's about 16' above ground level. I'm using a CM7777 preamp. I've got a fairly long cable run, so I tried the preamp right out of the shoot. I'm using the new D*/ T* HD receiver. I'm getting all but one of the DTV channels listed on the info I got from the CEA site. KING 5 is weak at around 64, but it looks good today. Most everything else is from 80-92 on the HD DVR meter. I've been told that rain may give me problems since I installed the antenna in my attic. I'll wait and see.

I just wanted to report my success and thank everyone for the help.

quarque

07-13-04, 10:11 PM

LL - congrats on your install success. Which model # is your HD receiver? Which DTV station do you not get?

LLToolbox

07-14-04, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by quarque
LL - congrats on your install success. Which model # is your HD receiver? Which DTV station do you not get?

Model: Hughes HR10-250

I see two stations listed that I'm not getting, though it doesn't look like I'm missing much.
KWDK ch 42 in Tacoma...no idea what this is.
KTBW ch 14 in Tacoma. This one is hitting at about 47 on the meter.

I still new to all of this, but I was surprised at how much better the OTA looks compared to the same channel on satellite, though the audio level is lower. I suppose that the sat provider doesn't alot much bandwidth to our local channels.

Here's what I'm receiving and the levels of each.
22 @ 87 --- 33 @ 90 --- 4 @ 86 --- 5 @ 64 (I'm a little nervous about this one) --- 7 @ 92 --- 9 @ 84 --- 13 @ 92 --- 51 @ 70 --- 14 @ 47 ---16 @ 79 --- 11 @ 80 --- 44 @ 85 ---

Now I'll just wait for the rain and see if anything happens.

quarque

07-14-04, 09:17 PM

I'd say your numbers look very good. The 2 Tacoma stations are low-power religious stuff I believe. Interesting that OTA is noticeably better than sat. but not all that surprising. Just wait until EVERYTHING is in HD and then you'll see some real bandwidth problems. I was tempted to go with a sat. system a couple years ago and decided to stick with basic cable + OTA HD. So far I'm not sorry, although the VOOM system is tempting. They have 2-3 times the HD content of anyone else.

LLToolbox

07-14-04, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by quarque
I'd say your numbers look very good....

I considered VOOM. I hear that they are changing their codec to a MS/ Window Media Player9 codec. They are also flying a new bird, I think. I recently got to A/B their service with D*Tv. VOOM generally didn't look as good, but I think they will be doing better with the new codec. I dunno. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me. I just hope that D*Tv gets some more content up soon.

Another interesting content provider is Microsoft. They are releasing some DVDs that play on Media Player9 in HD. I've got a couple of 'em from my neighbor who does testing at MS. But I guess that's for another thread.

NHLFAN

07-15-04, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Model: Hughes HR10-250

I see two stations listed that I'm not getting, though it doesn't look like I'm missing much.

Here's what I'm receiving and the levels of each.
22 @ 87 --- 33 @ 90 --- 4 @ 86 --- 5 @ 64 (I'm a little nervous about this one) --- 7 @ 92 --- 9 @ 84 --- 13 @ 92 --- 51 @ 70 --- 14 @ 47 ---16 @ 79 --- 11 @ 80 --- 44 @ 85 ---

Now I'll just wait for the rain and see if anything happens.

That's great news...!

It's nice being out here in Duvall and getting OTA HD !!!

Have you tried not using the amp and seeing what your levels are? I'm curious to see how far the level drops for channel 11 as that's the channel I have the most problem with, strange...but I get better levels when it rains...(I know its the cloud cover).

I just might have to get a 4228 and scrap the RS one.

Anyone been to FRY's lately and seen any of the 4228 in stock and if so what's the cost?

Thanks...

DanKurts

07-15-04, 03:31 AM

NHLfan
The numbers you see (or LL is talking about) are NOT signal level or amount, but signal to noise ratio. His actual level could be very weak, say -12db, or quite good at +15db, and still get the same readings. As long as he can lock on the signal, which usually takes a reading of 50 or more, depending on receiver type, you're okay. Ch11 is usually lower in transmitting power, almost everywhere I go, so out where you are is going to be even tougher. And ch5 normally is 5 to 10db lower on the east side, or to the east from downtown Seattle. It's the pattern of signal they transmit. Couple that with all the trees around you and it's not surprising it reads less than the rest. And the trees across the valley on Union Hill also add to the problem. You're just skimming through the tops.
What may help is trying different locations on your house. 12" in any direction can make a huge difference in the overall wave shape of the signal that your decoder sees, and thus the numbers the receiver will display.
Dan

LLToolbox

07-15-04, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by DanKurts
NHLfan
.....What may help is trying different locations on your house. 12" in any direction can make a huge difference in the overall wave shape of the signal that your decoder sees, and thus the numbers the receiver will display.....
Dan

Thanks again for the help, Dan. Because my antenna location is easily accessable, I was able to really tweak the rotation. I spent a couple of hours moving it then checking all of my channels for reception and recording the results. At the end, I was rotating is in 1/2" to 1" increments.
This difference was especially noticeable on channel 5.

I probably should try the rig without the preamp for grins, but it's working so well that I don't want to break it. That, and I don't know if I've killed all of the wasps up there yet !

Dan - While my OTA video quality is still better than the same channels on my SAT, the audio level is about 3dB lower than the SAT audio. I can turn my amp up and everything sounds good, so it's not a big deal. I'm just wondering what you think about it.

I watched several hours of OTA on different channels last night and it all still looks great. I'm not a Leno fan, but it sure is cool to see a show fill my 16:9 screen ! Channel 9 was really weird though...small letter box with black bars on the top and grey bars on the side. Strange....

CPanther95

07-15-04, 01:24 PM

I'm trying to update a master list of OTA HD stations. Seattle has not yet been updated. Can somebody that knows what networks are broadcasting in HD or HD/DD5.1 go to the following link and post the info?

National List of Stations Broadcasting HD / DD5.1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422073)

Just need the Network, Re-mapped Channel#, and if they're DD 5.1. For any of the networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, UPN & WB) that are currently broadcasting in HD.

Thanks....

dennya

07-15-04, 06:40 PM

Hey guys. Future Seattle-area resident here -- I'm moving to Duvall next month.

I'll be in Taylor Heights -- anyone here know how the OTA reception is there? I plan to get an HD Tivo, but need an antenna for HD locals. The TV will be on the second floor.

From Antennaweb, it looks like the OTA stations are at two rather disparate azimuths. Tell me I'm not going to be going back to the bad old days of antenna motors...

quarque

07-15-04, 08:53 PM

dennya - if you can post an intersection I can check the topography. Most of the stations you'd be interested in will be in the same general direction unless you really like shopping/religious channels.

quarque

07-15-04, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Channel 9 was really weird though...small letter box with black bars on the top and grey bars on the side. Strange....
were you watching the SD subchannel (9-1) or the HD sub (9-5)? If you were on 9-1 then you need to work on your 'stretch' modes of your receiver and tv to get things filled out. 9-5 HD broadcasts are always 16:9 format.

dennya

07-15-04, 09:24 PM

quarque,

That's good news! The nearest intersection is 278th Ave. NE and NE 154th st. Thanks in advance!

NHLFAN

07-15-04, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by DanKurts
NHLfan
The numbers you see (or LL is talking about) are NOT signal level or amount, but signal to noise ratio. His actual level could be very weak, say -12db, or quite good at +15db, and still get the same readings. As long as he can lock on the signal, which usually takes a reading of 50 or more, depending on receiver type, you're okay. Ch11 is usually lower in transmitting power, almost everywhere I go, so out where you are is going to be even tougher. And ch5 normally is 5 to 10db lower on the east side, or to the east from downtown Seattle. It's the pattern of signal they transmit. Couple that with all the trees around you and it's not surprising it reads less than the rest. And the trees across the valley on Union Hill also add to the problem. You're just skimming through the tops.
What may help is trying different locations on your house. 12" in any direction can make a huge difference in the overall wave shape of the signal that your decoder sees, and thus the numbers the receiver will display.
Dan

Thanks for the info Dan....My antenna is pointed directly into the thick trees behind me...my reception was better in the winter but now that the leaves are filling in, I almost never get 11-1.

I'm using a Samsung 360 and 165....as you well know the 360 has issues with the OTA signal meter.

Soon as there is more HD programming I'll upgrade my 4 Directivo's to HD as most of our family's tivo'd items are not in HD anyways.

Thanks again,
Doug

DanKurts

07-16-04, 01:22 AM

Dennya
I did one about 6 blocks south and 2 blocks west. The hill is a liitle below line of sight, but the area actually works. Every location has it's problems, of course, but you have a better shot than most of those that live farther up the hill, but surrounded by more trees.
Dan

DanKurts

07-16-04, 01:29 AM

LL
Chan 9 transmitts the same program material as ch 9 analog on 9-1, and other standard def programs on 9-2, 9-3 during the day, and nothing on 9-5. After about 5PM, they switch off 9-2, 9-3 to get more bandwidth, and turn on 9-5, which is their HD channel. 9-1 continues to broadcast as earlier. If you were watching one of the 9-2 or 9-3 channels, it's very possible to see some odd programs. Although it does say HD in the lower right corner on those channels, the only real HD programs are on 9-5.
Dan

Joe Hendrix

07-16-04, 12:56 PM

I finally got to try out my friends booster. It was an RCA 4-Way Amplifier Model VH140. It wasn't what I thought it would be, but gave it a shot anyway. As you may have guessed, it did absolutley nothing to the signal. The before and after levels were just the same.

Gonna see about purchasing one of those Channel Master 7777 boosters with the preamp, to see if that helps bring in and stabalize those channels that seem to be on the fringe (11,13,22). I've got a long cable run, about 100 feet, so I'm hoping that a booster will do the trick.

cvj

07-16-04, 07:26 PM

Larry

I was wondering if you would plot my location on the East Side if Mercer Island. I live on the east side of a hill with trees and hill blocking views towards Queen Anne and Capitol Hill. Street address 9325 S.E. 57th Street.

Beofre buying/installing antenna it would be great to know the likely chances of picking up ABC,CBS,NBS and PBS - all HD of course.

Thanks
cvj

quarque

07-16-04, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by dennya
quarque,

That's good news! The nearest intersection is 278th Ave. NE and NE 154th st. Thanks in advance!
Your location looks pretty good as long as your antenna is not laying on the ground. Plan on a roof mount. Attic might work.

quarque

07-16-04, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by cvj
Larry

I was wondering if you would plot my location on the East Side if Mercer Island. I live on the east side of a hill with trees and hill blocking views towards Queen Anne and Capitol Hill. Street address 9325 S.E. 57th Street.

Beofre buying/installing antenna it would be great to know the likely chances of picking up ABC,CBS,NBS and PBS - all HD of course.

Thanks
cvj
You have a hill 1/4 mile to the NW that is blocking direct line-of-site. To clear it you would need to get your antenna about 50 feet off the ground. That is possible with a mast on the roof of a 2-story house.

cvj

07-17-04, 12:20 AM

Thank you - was afraid of that - my neighbors would kill me if I did that.....:mad:

Bigboy2u

07-17-04, 01:02 PM

Hello, I have been trying to get the locals with some limited success. I live at 58th St NE and Browns Point Blvd, Tacoma 98422 with open view of Des Moines and trees blocking the NW and W side. I am currently using the Wingard GS2000 that came with the Directv dish with a diplexer. I have an MyHD card and did use a RS yagi with rather ok success at our old house 2 blocks away. The Wingard seems to suck pretty bad only getting KIRO and the Tacoma/shopping channels and the yagi pulls in other channels ok at times. I did try to combine them with no luck. I cant seem to hit "all or most" with one antenna. Will a 4221 do it from this location? If you use two antennas can they be spread far apart to avoid interference and how far apart? I dont want to use an A-B switch since I just got an HDTivo and need to record the HD locals. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks

litzdog911

07-17-04, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Bigboy2u
Hello, I have been trying to get the locals with some limited success. I live at 58th St NE and Browns Point Blvd, Tacoma 98422 with open view of Des Moines and trees blocking the NW and W side. I am currently using the Wingard GS2000 that came with the Directv dish with a diplexer. I have an MyHD card and did use a RS yagi with rather ok success at our old house 2 blocks away. The Wingard seems to suck pretty bad only getting KIRO and the Tacoma/shopping channels and the yagi pulls in other channels ok at times. I did try to combine them with no luck. I cant seem to hit "all or most" with one antenna. Will a 4221 do it from this location? If you use two antennas can they be spread far apart to avoid interference and how far apart? I dont want to use an A-B switch since I just got an HDTivo and need to record the HD locals. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks

We'll see what quarque has to say about your location, but I've had good luck combining two antennas using a Channel Master JoinTenna (see my post a couple of pages back). One antenna is aimed at the Seattle towers, and the other is aimed at Bremerton to combine KCPQ-DT (channel 18). Seems to work fine.

quarque

07-17-04, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Bigboy2u
Hello, I have been trying to get the locals with some limited success. I live at 58th St NE and Browns Point Blvd, Tacoma 98422 with open view of Des Moines and trees blocking the NW and W side. I am currently using the Wingard GS2000 that came with the Directv dish with a diplexer. I have an MyHD card and did use a RS yagi with rather ok success at our old house 2 blocks away. The Wingard seems to suck pretty bad only getting KIRO and the Tacoma/shopping channels and the yagi pulls in other channels ok at times. I did try to combine them with no luck. I cant seem to hit "all or most" with one antenna. Will a 4221 do it from this location? If you use two antennas can they be spread far apart to avoid interference and how far apart? I dont want to use an A-B switch since I just got an HDTivo and need to record the HD locals. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks
Your line of sight is OK for both Seattle and Bremerton. You are 22.5 miles to QA towers so a 4221 would cover the range. If you have to go through a lot of trees you may need something bigger. And yes, the GS2000 is pretty useless for urban digital reception. You have about a 55 degree spread between Bremerton and Seattle so using a single antenna orientation is dicey. The Jointenna is one possible route but some people have had trouble getting it to work right. I would start out with a single GOOD antenna pointed NNW or due North (to split the difference) and see what you can get from a single orientation. If that can be made to work it will be the least hassle. You may need to try several antennas.

quarque

07-17-04, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by cvj
Thank you - was afraid of that - my neighbors would kill me if I did that.....:mad:
Yes but for one or two brief days you will experience absolute joy! :D

speedy777

07-19-04, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Joe Hendrix
I finally got to try out my friends booster. It was an RCA 4-Way Amplifier Model VH140. It wasn't what I thought it would be, but gave it a shot anyway. As you may have guessed, it did absolutley nothing to the signal. The before and after levels were just the same.

Gonna see about purchasing one of those Channel Master 7777 boosters with the preamp, to see if that helps bring in and stabalize those channels that seem to be on the fringe (11,13,22). I've got a long cable run, about 100 feet, so I'm hoping that a booster will do the trick.

Joe:
I haven't check the website for awhile. I will be staying over my parents place Harper Hill Road, Port Orchard on July22 and July23. If you still interest in the CM7777, let's me know.

Dave

NHLFAN

07-19-04, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by NHLFAN
That's great news...!

It's nice being out here in Duvall and getting OTA HD !!!

Have you tried not using the amp and seeing what your levels are? I'm curious to see how far the level drops for channel 11 as that's the channel I have the most problem with, strange...but I get better levels when it rains...(I know its the cloud cover).

I just might have to get a 4228 and scrap the RS one.

Anyone been to FRY's lately and seen any of the 4228 in stock and if so what's the cost?

Thanks...

Well just an update...,

I went to Fry's in Renton this morning and they had just received another pallet of 4228's so I snagged one.

Upon removing my RS UHF antenna from the mast and installing the new 4228 :

I Now Receive channel 11-1...but 7-1 could not be found....so after raising , lowing, and turning the 4228, still no 7-1...and I've never had a problem with 7-1 before.

I decide to check out my other receiver that's hooked to a silver sensor in the back room and WOW 7-1 is nowhere to be found!

Well wouldn't you know it channel 7-1 must have been having their own problems...just my luck...lol.

Later on this afternoon I checked and 7-1 is broadcasting again!

I did notice the shopping channels are now breaking-up a little more but no loss here....everything else looks great...my only problem is the 4228 looks ugly as H*** compared to what I had before.

DanKurts

07-19-04, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Bigboy2u
Hello, I have been trying to get the locals with some limited success. I live at 58th St NE and Browns Point Blvd, Tacoma 98422 with open view of Des Moines and trees blocking the NW and W side. I am currently using the Wingard GS2000 that came with the Directv dish with a diplexer. I have an MyHD card and did use a RS yagi with rather ok success at our old house 2 blocks away. The Wingard seems to suck pretty bad only getting KIRO and the Tacoma/shopping channels and the yagi pulls in other channels ok at times. I did try to combine them with no luck. I cant seem to hit "all or most" with one antenna. Will a 4221 do it from this location? If you use two antennas can they be spread far apart to avoid interference and how far apart? I dont want to use an A-B switch since I just got an HDTivo and need to record the HD locals. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks

Bigboy2u
You're not in a bad spot for Seattle, but if you're in the split level house next to Watchtower road, 13 may be a problem because of all the trees on the hilltop to the North & NW. If you're on the NE corner of the intersection, you may have a chance at 13. The spread between to the two locations is well within the capabilities of a 4221, and I've never needed two antennas in that area. If it still doesn't get all the channels, run a separate lead in to get away from diplexing. It may be adding just enough noise to cause you problems.
Dan

LLToolbox

07-19-04, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by dennya
quarque,

That's good news! The nearest intersection is 278th Ave. NE and NE 154th st. Thanks in advance!

I'm at 28216 NE 140PL. I run by your new address all the time. Let me know if want to stop by to check out my rig. I'm getting great reception so far.

seabay

07-19-04, 02:08 PM

\

I'm getting everything but Ch. 5 with my Winegard sensar. I'm trying to determine if I should just get up there and move the antenna, get an amplifier or get a new antenna altogether. Thanks.

quarque

07-19-04, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by seabay
I've posted this elsewhere in error, but Larry, is it possible to do a check for 1133 243rd Pl SE in Sammamish 98075?

I'm getting everything but Ch. 5 with my Winegard sensar. I'm trying to determine if I should just get up there and move the antenna, get an amplifier or get a new antenna altogether. Thanks.
You are on a nice plateau there - about 510 feet. The problem with ch 5 may be signal level since the transmission pattern for 5 is more north-south than east-west in shape. try moving your antenna around or try a different antenna. What model Winegard are you using?

seabay

07-20-04, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by quarque
You are on a nice plateau there - about 510 feet. The problem with ch 5 may be signal level since the transmission pattern for 5 is more north-south than east-west in shape. try moving your antenna around or try a different antenna. What model Winegard are you using?

I'm using the standard issue from D*. I think its called the Winegard GS-1000 Sensar. Would an amplifier help or maybe a SquareShooter? Thanks for the info.

DanKurts

07-20-04, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by seabay
I'm using the standard issue from D*. I think its called the Winegard GS-1000 Sensar. Would an amplifier help or maybe a SquareShooter? Thanks for the info.

seabay
I use a 4221 on the better spots in Sammamish, like yours, and it works. You shouldn't need an amplifier. The antenna you have now is not too swift, so the fact you're getting all the others says you just need a little more, and the 4221 should do it. It's not fussy about aiming, but you may have to find a good spot for it. I would bet the same spot you're using now would work fine.
Dan

deelmakur

07-21-04, 10:56 AM

Disappearance of stations you have been getting is a real problem, as they sometimes go off the air temporarily. That leaves you spending time tweaking the system. when, in fact, there was nothing to tune. If I lose a famiilar signal, I always wait a day, to see if it reappears. Simply stated, some station owners, and by extension, some of the engineering people at these places, see HD broadcasting as a burden, and are not interested in optimizing the experience. The KING 5 people are especially unhelpful, if you call, which is just dumb, given that the company has invested in local studios to enable HDTV news broadcasts.

speedy777

07-21-04, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by seabay
I'm using the standard issue from D*. I think its called the Winegard GS-1000 Sensar. Would an amplifier help or maybe a SquareShooter? Thanks for the info.

seabay:
The wineguard GS-1000 antenna w/amp is terrible. It pickup only few channels. I test its awhile back and the CM4228 sure beat by a mile. Fry's Electronics still have about 5 CM4228 left as of 7/18/04.

dennya

07-21-04, 11:25 AM

I'm going to be new to the area, and was interested to see if anyone here has bought from Magnolia. I'm getting my HD Tivo and DLP set from them, and was wondering whether to use them for the DirecTV purchase too. I figure their installer would do the OTA antenna, whereas I'd guess that DirecTVs wouldn't?

How big is the CM4221/4228? My wife's already antsy about the dish. A big ole TV antenna isn't going to go over well.

jsamans

07-21-04, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by dennya
I'm going to be new to the area, and was interested to see if anyone here has bought from Magnolia. I'm getting my HD Tivo and DLP set from them, and was wondering whether to use them for the DirecTV purchase too. I figure their installer would do the OTA antenna, whereas I'd guess that DirecTVs wouldn't?

How big is the CM4221/4228? My wife's already antsy about the dish. A big ole TV antenna isn't going to go over well.
DirecTV will install the antenna, but the installers don't like to do it and do not put too much effort into it. For example, my installer put my antenna like 12 inches away from my dish, i.e. the most convenient place possible for him. When only one station came in, rather than tweaking the antenna, he just told me I needed a more powerful one.

My wife said no to the CM4228, it's a monster. However, if you are lucky I believe you can mount it flat against a chimney or an outside wall and it won't be as noticeable.

seabay

07-21-04, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by jsamans
DirecTV will install the antenna, but the installers don't like to do it and do not put too much effort into it. For example, my installer put my antenna like 12 inches away from my dish, i.e. the most convenient place possible for him. When only one station came in, rather than tweaking the antenna, he just told me I needed a more powerful one.

My wife said no to the CM4228, it's a monster. However, if you are lucky I believe you can mount it flat against a chimney or an outside wall and it won't be as noticeable.

You're right about those CM antennas. They won't win any beauty contests. That's why I'm considering buying the Square Shooter. I don't know if it will do the trick, but it would definitely help with the WAF.

LLToolbox

07-21-04, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by seabay
You're right about those CM antennas. They won't win any beauty contests. That's why I'm considering buying the Square Shooter. I don't know if it will do the trick, but it would definitely help with the WAF.
I got lucky with my 4228. It's mounted in the attic above my garage facing a flat wall which just happens to point toward Q.A. Great reception and no neigborhood lynch mob.

dennya

07-21-04, 12:38 PM

That's hopeful, LL, since I'm moving to Duvall... Did you put it up yourself?

(Edit: Missed your previous post, LL. Thanks for the offer! I might just take you up on that once we hit town! -- Denny)

LLToolbox

07-21-04, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by dennya
That's hopeful, LL, since I'm moving to Duvall... Did you put it up yourself?

(Edit: Missed your previous post, LL. Thanks for the offer! I might just take you up on that once we hit town! -- Denny)

Yeah, my install was really easy. I had already laid down a floor in the attic and installed a cable distro panel (translated...a hunk of plywood with some RF splitters, preamps etc.) that feeds all the rooms in my house, though I had to run one more RG6 line for the antenna (the hardest part of my install). I installed the antenna with a few hunks of wood and a PVC pipe that I had laying around. I already had an electrical outlet up there as well, which I used to power the preamp. I haven't tried the rig without a preamp.

I'll attempt to attach a small pic. I don't know if it will be detailed enough, but I'll try.

litzdog911

07-21-04, 06:41 PM

Last I heard, KSTW-DT (UPN) was due to increase their transmitter power "later this summer". Anybody here heard any updates? It's the one Seattle station that I can't receive. Thanks!

quarque

07-21-04, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
I'll attempt to attach a small pic. I don't know if it will be detailed enough, but I'll try.
I'll bet that is the 'LLtoolbox' we see in the lower left corner of your pic. :D

quarque

07-21-04, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Last I heard, KSTW-DT (UPN) was due to increase their transmitter power "later this summer". Anybody here heard any updates? It's the one Seattle station that I can't receive. Thanks! The last email I got from their CE said more like Sept-Oct (ish). :(

deelmakur

07-22-04, 04:43 AM

I got my DirecTV from Magnolia. They were running an HDTV special. I figured because it was them, the install would be high quality. Turns out they go through an outfit in Oregon, who contract locally with installers. The guys I had did a hit and run, and knew nothing about OTA. Real trunk slammers, and they gouged me for the useless work they did on the antennas I suppplied. I also have installed the Winegard "pizza box". It's worthless. Don't waste your time or money. It's another Terk 55. In truth, these exotic antennas are baloney. You still do best with the traditional UHF antenna.

dennya

07-22-04, 09:16 AM

Thanks for the Magnolia experience info, Deelmakur. If I'm going to buy locally vs. something like the powerbuy, I want to know I'll at least get decent service. Might just have to contact someone from this forum about the antenna install. (Could probably learn how to do that myself, but between moving in and our nearly two-year-old, I'd end up not getting OTA until January. :-)

LLToolbox

07-22-04, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by dennya
Thanks for the Magnolia experience info, Deelmakur. If I'm going to buy locally vs. something like the powerbuy, I want to know I'll at least get decent service. Might just have to contact someone from this forum about the antenna install. (Could probably learn how to do that myself, but between moving in and our nearly two-year-old, I'd end up not getting OTA until January. :-)

Try DanKurts from this forum. If you look at his posts, he obviously does this a lot and knows what he's doing.

P.S. good eye, quarque !

deelmakur

07-22-04, 11:04 AM

If anybody wants to buy my Winegard, let me know. I can't make it work. Hung a couple of silver sensors out the window, and everything but 5-1 comes in. Incidentally, I buy my antennas online from some guy in Massachusetts called Stark. They ground ship cheap, gets out in about 5 days. Prices are much lower, and none of this "we have them on back order". The guy has everything, and even offers a little troubleshooting advice. No sales tax virtually pays the shipping.

litzdog911

07-22-04, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by quarque
The last email I got from their CE said more like Sept-Oct (ish). :(

So that almost qualifies as "late summer". I'm looking forward to Star Trek Enterprise in HiDef, so hopefully KSTW-DT boosts their power before the season premier.

litzdog911

07-22-04, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by deelmakur
.... I also have installed the Winegard "pizza box". It's worthless. Don't waste your time or money. It's another Terk 55. In truth, these exotic antennas are baloney. You still do best with the traditional UHF antenna.

Are you referring to the Winegard SquareShooter? Mine works very well from Mill Creek, 15 miles north of the Seattle transmitters. And it's gotten very favorable reviews. I wonder if yours is defective?

See this thread for more info ....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=353174

dennya

07-22-04, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Try DanKurts from this forum. If you look at his posts, he obviously does this a lot and knows what he's doing.
Thanks, LL. That's exactly who I was thinking... I'd already PM'd him a few days ago. :-) I'd rather work with someone who's "into" the whole TV thing than a contractor who's just looking to check off the "installed" box and move on to the next dish... Some contractors are great, but it's a real shot in the dark as to who you're going to get.

quarque

07-22-04, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
So that almost qualifies as "late summer". I'm looking forward to Star Trek Enterprise in HiDef, so hopefully KSTW-DT boosts their power before the season premier.
And let's hope the writing doesn't go in the toilet like some previous ST series. They seem to run out of ideas quickly. I have watched it in HD and it is pretty good - but they seem to grease the lenses or something to give everything that "soft" look. The picture is not as sharp as other OTA HD material. Anyone else notice this?

litzdog911

07-22-04, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by quarque
And let's hope the writing doesn't go in the toilet like some previous ST series. They seem to run out of ideas quickly. I have watched it in HD and it is pretty good - but they seem to grease the lenses or something to give everything that "soft" look. The picture is not as sharp as other OTA HD material. Anyone else notice this?

Agreed! Although I thought this last season was better than the first.

There's a thread in the HDTV Programming Forum describing changes that they're making in how the shoot ST Enterprise that might explain the "soft" look it's had so far ....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=423583

Al_B

07-22-04, 10:13 PM

I've been wondering myself about the terrible quality of ST Enterprise. I would call it about half the quality of a DVD, and also nowhere near the quality of a FOX 480P broadcast. This is from the DirecTV HD TIVO at 1080I to a Toshiba 50HDX82.

Al

quarque

07-23-04, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Agreed! Although I thought this last season was better than the first.

There's a thread in the HDTV Programming Forum describing changes that they're making in how the shoot ST Enterprise that might explain the "soft" look it's had so far ....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=423583
Yes, this season was more interesting. Too bad they picked Bakula for the lead role. I never cared for him in any of his previous work and it has made this show less appealing for me than it might have been with someone else.

That thread you posted only has some guesses about the soft look. I find it hard to believe it is from "the way the film is used and processed." I think they must be doing something with a filter (or the electronic version of one).

pastiche

07-23-04, 09:04 PM

Anyone know what the deal is with KOMO tonight?

I noticed 4-1 breaking up during the news, so I flipped up to 5-1.

I noticed that -- in between -- I now get a SD version of KOMO on 4-2, but without audio.

LLToolbox

07-23-04, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by quarque
Yes, this season was more interesting. Too bad they picked Bakula for the lead role....

Bela Lugosi would have been cool....snicker ;)

Budget_HT

07-24-04, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by pastiche
Anyone know what the deal is with KOMO tonight?

I noticed 4-1 breaking up during the news, so I flipped up to 5-1.

I noticed that -- in between -- I now get a SD version of KOMO on 4-2, but without audio.

I saw breakups on KOMO-DT during the 5-6pm news. I also lost the audio at one point. I switched channels briefly and came back and the audio was there again.

I never noticed any 4-2 though.

NHLFAN

07-24-04, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I saw breakups on KOMO-DT during the 5-6pm news. I also lost the audio at one point. I switched channels briefly and came back and the audio was there again.

I never noticed any 4-2 though.

I also received 4-2 and it was in SD, I had audio but it was out of sinc with the picture.

pastiche

07-24-04, 03:29 AM

I'm getting the 4-2 KOMO w/ out of sync audio in SD now, too.

Supposedly ABC News Now launches on "secondary" DT channels next week (abcnewsnow dot com). KOMO's not listed as parciticapting though.

Curious.

horseflesh

07-24-04, 03:38 AM

I also noticed 4-2, with sound out of sync.

4-1 has terrible sound quality for me tonight, it's scratchy.

From the Totem Lake West part of Kirkland (right by the high school) I am getting decent reception.

Antenna: Silver Sensor, indoor on 2nd floor, pointed approx 205 deg (magnetic)
STB: SIR-T151

I get 4, 5, 7, 13, 16, 22 adequately.

9-1/5 seem to come in OK too. It takes the 151 a few seconds to lock on though, whereas the other stations come up almost instantly. (I had a hard time getting these caught in the station search.)

I can trade off something else and get 11 but it isn't worth messing with til Trek is back on.

I can't be more specific on signal strength. Everything shows up identically (about 50%) on the 151's poor meter.

quarque

07-24-04, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by LLToolbox
Bela Lugosi would have been cool....snicker ;)
I was thinking more along the lines of Abe Vigoda. :D :D :D

Johnps

07-24-04, 08:33 PM

4-1 has terrible sound quality for me tonight, it's scratchy.

I have also noticed terrible sound quailty. Last night I noticed it on my DTC100 in the bedroom and today on my Sony SAT HD300. At first I thought it may be my DTC100 since I have had it for a while. Having it on both receivers confirms that it is not a problem with my receiver. The sound on 4.2 is quite muffled and scratchy.

quarque

07-24-04, 10:24 PM

Just checked 4-1 and 4-2 at 7:20 PM and yep the sound is poor on both. Obviously they have been doing something during the rollout of 4-2 to mess up the audio.

litzdog911

07-26-04, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by quarque
Just checked 4-1 and 4-2 at 7:20 PM and yep the sound is poor on both. Obviously they have been doing something during the rollout of 4-2 to mess up the audio.

So is this what's being broadcast on 4-2 ....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=427017

I tried tuning it the other night on my HR10-250 HD DirecTivo, but it didn't seem to find 4-2. I'll check again today.

NHLFAN

07-27-04, 12:44 AM

Well,
4-2 tonight was broadcasting a live feed from the Democratic National Convention...where as 4-1 would cut away for commercials...Still had the audio problems.

Budget_HT

07-27-04, 01:48 AM

On my HD TiVo, I am able to manually tune in this new channel by entering 38-3 on the HD TiVo remote. (Note that channel 4-1 is on real channel 38-2). The HD TiVo does not map this channel number to anything else.

On my Hughes E-86, I can tune this new channel in as channel 4-2.

There is no APG guide data on either box, suggesting that it is not yet provided by DirecTV.

The 4-2 SD subchannel looks heavily compressed, hopefully to preserve the HD quality in 720p on channel 4-1.

DanKurts

07-27-04, 03:38 AM

pastiche
I saw the 4-2 thing, too. I was doing an install and the search program picked it up. I've seen KOMO do this before, and KING, too. I think they're most likely testing another sub channel along with regular HD to see how much it's being affected by it. It always drops off after a while.

As far as channel 11 power, they actually have a fair amount. I know they keep playing with the transmitter and antenna, but if you look at the polar plot, you'll see that towards Mill Creek there's much less power being oriented that way then to the South and SouthWest.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=42363&rotate=0.00&p0=0.627&p10=0.640&p20=0.645&p30=0.641&p40=0.631&p50=0.613&p60=0.592&p70=0.579&p80=0.570&p90=0.579&p100=0.610&p110=0.650&p120=0.699&p130=0.759&p140=0.817&p150=0.869&p160=0.914&p170=0.951&p180=0.975&p190=0.993&p200=1.000&p210=0.996&p220=0.981&p230=0.955&p240=0.920&p250=0.876&p260=0.826&p270=0.771&p280=0.714&p290=0.661&p300=0.615&p310=0.583&p320=0.569&p330=0.571&p340=0.586&p350=0.607&p360=0.627&

Why? I keep getting various answers, depending on who picks up the Engineering phone. But, they definitely have a lot more than the 68kw that the FCC site says is their temporary power, and must be fairly close to the 850kw they can use. Ch 9 & 22 generally come in stronger North and East of Seattle, but 11 still comes in almost as strong on my meter, and more than 16 KONG, which really IS on backup power, according to Gene at the transmitter. I also have found that at their frequency of 602-608mhz, for whatever reason, it can get tricky trying to find a good waveshape on my analyzer, specially when in the trees.
What that means is, if you can get 16 but not 11 from the Mill Creek area, it's most likely the trees and/or a weak spot in your antenna, not weak power output.
What I would REALLY like to see is that all the stations transmitted in a full and equal 360 degree pattern. The tough one for me, most often, is ch5 in Bellevue or Sammamish, which is almost due East. Their polar plot shows a huge drop off, which usually translates to about half the power of ch4 or 7.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=18954&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.978&p20=0.915&p30=0.820&p40=0.709&p50=0.597&p60=0.501&p70=0.432&p80=0.393&p90=0.381&p100=0.393&p110=0.432&p120=0.501&p130=0.597&p140=0.709&p150=0.820&p160=0.915&p170=0.978&p180=1.000&p190=0.978&p200=0.915&p210=0.820&p220=0.709&p230=0.597&p240=0.501&p250=0.432&p260=0.393&p270=0.381&p280=0.393&p290=0.432&p300=0.501&p310=0.597&p320=0.709&p330=0.820&p340=0.915&p350=0.978&p360=1.000&

Okay, I'll stop whining!

Oh, yeah.
Finally got my ch18 filters and band pass, will test them out this weekend, if not sooner, and pass on the results.
Dan

litzdog911

07-28-04, 12:53 AM

Can someone verify what Dan says in the above post about KSTW-DT's transmitter power? Are they really operating at full power? If so, then I guess I'll tweak my antenna setup some more.

halabbottnw

07-28-04, 09:46 AM

I am experiencing about a one second delay in the audio from KOMO. Anybody else seeing it?

I have been in touch with the station engineers who state that KOMO is the only station broadcasting 5.1 dolby, which some receivers have a problem with--namely, Samsung and Mitsubishi. I have a 4+ year old Mitsubishi HD1080 (WS-55805) with a separate Mitsubishi HD1080 box for HD decoding.

In the past I have been able to switch stations and return to KOMO and synch would return. Now nothing works.

I am in Manchester, WA (47:33:04N 122:33:03W) on the East side of a hill facing Seattle and QA Hill. I can see the transmitters about 12 miles away from my basement. My ChannelMaster antenna is mounted to my chimney on top of the house.

KOMO is now broadcasting 4-1, and 4-2, and synch on 4-2 is within a couple of frames. Only 4-1 exhibits the synch problem.

Thanks in advance!
Hal

Bruceko

07-28-04, 10:14 AM

7am no audio on 4.2 anyone else getting the same?

lkinley

07-28-04, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by halabbottnw
I am experiencing about a one second delay in the audio from KOMO. Anybody else seeing it?

Hal

I've noted many synch problems in the past with KOMO on my LG 3100 box. I'll check tonight.

-Lance

quarque

07-28-04, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Can someone verify what Dan says in the above post about KSTW-DT's transmitter power? Are they really operating at full power? If so, then I guess I'll tweak my antenna setup some more.
The last email I got from their Chief Engineer said they were not at full power but should have their upgrade done by the end of October at the latest. I wouldn't waste a lot of time on it until then.

SeattleCard

07-28-04, 08:29 PM

Anyone here have any experience getting an OTA signal in Monroe, WA? I see a few folks have had luck in Duvall, and Monroe is just up the road. :)

Mike777

07-28-04, 09:38 PM

Any idea if KCPQ Fox channel 13 is going to go back to the method of sharing the Seattle WB tower (digital channel 25)? They stopped doing this in January and I haven't been able to pull in the Tacoma station since it is too far away.

I e-mailed them and got a somewhat terse, sarcastic response where they were saying certain powers won't let them do it.

This is a big deal in Seattle as the Seahawks are predominantly carried on Fox. If they don't boost the Tacoma signal, or start sharing the Seattle tower again, I probably won't be able to see the Seahawks in possible HD. Lot's of people in Seattle are affected by this.

quarque

07-28-04, 10:46 PM

KCPQ has been working on getting an agreement since January and who knows when it might happen. BTW the tower is west of Bremerton, not in Tacoma. You should be able to pull it in unless you have something in the way. PM me your location and I will check the topography.

Mike777

07-29-04, 11:41 AM

I have Queen Anne hill smack between the Bremerton tower and my Wallingford Apartment. Oh well.

Mike777

07-29-04, 12:02 PM

It looks like Komo channel 4 finnally got the subchannel working right. If you go to 4-2, you get a live feed of the convention. While 4-1 has Regis and Kelly.

While I'm not a huge fan of splitting the digital channel, it is nice to see them offering totally different and useful shows at the same time.

weebling1

07-29-04, 02:56 PM

SeattleCard, We've seen folks near you getting reception. Give quarque cross streets and ask nicely :D for a topography plot.

quarque

07-29-04, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Mike777
It looks like Komo channel 4 finnally got the subchannel working right. If you go to 4-2, you get a live feed of the convention. While 4-1 has Regis and Kelly.

While I'm not a huge fan of splitting the digital channel, it is nice to see them offering totally different and useful shows at the same time.
Uh, different, yes; useful, well, the convention is useful but Regis?!? I'm not sure how useful that show is! :D

LLToolbox

07-29-04, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by quarque
Uh, different, yes; useful, well, the convention is useful but Regis?!? I'm not sure how useful that show is! :D

Tee Hee !!;)

Namaste !

pastiche

07-29-04, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by litzdog911
Can someone verify what Dan says in the above post about KSTW-DT's transmitter power? Are they really operating at full power? If so, then I guess I'll tweak my antenna setup some more.

I would imagine that KSTW is still running at low power.

I'm at the crest of Capitol Hill (just south of Volunteer Park), and run into signal overload problems on everything from Capitol Hill (9, 11, 22) and Queen Anne (4, 5, 7, 16) -- except for KSTW & KONG, presumably both still running at low power.

I suppose that I'm likely one of the only people who reads this board who found that the way to reception nirvana was a cheap indoor antenna. :-)

Joe Hendrix

07-30-04, 06:37 PM

Dan Kurtz... do you ever come help us poor souls over on the peninsula trying to get our OTA DTV??? I live over near Port Orchard and have an old UHF antenna up on my roof. I'm getting 4-1 (and now 4-2), 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, 9-5, 16-1 all pretty well from the roof antenna. I then added a switch to an indoor antenna in order to get 5-1. I was getting 7-1 pretty good a week or two ago, and now it's just all pixels. The other ones (11-1, 13-1, 22-1) are all very fringe reception, bouncing in and out.

I don't know if just by adding a preamp, like a 7775 would do the trick. If I need a different antenna like a 4248 or 4228. Or both. Or, maybe I'm just wasting my time.

If you do come out here occasionaly, any chance you could help me out?

DanKurts

07-31-04, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Mike777
Any idea if KCPQ Fox channel 13 is going to go back to the method of sharing the Seattle WB tower (digital channel 25)? They stopped doing this in January and I haven't been able to pull in the Tacoma station since it is too far away.

I e-mailed them and got a somewhat terse, sarcastic response where they were saying certain powers won't let them do it.

This is a big deal in Seattle as the Seahawks are predominantly carried on Fox. If they don't boost the Tacoma signal, or start sharing the Seattle tower again, I probably won't be able to see the Seahawks in possible HD. Lot's of people in Seattle are affected by this.

After 22 & 13 stopped sharing, I spoke with their engineer that started doing the dual channels broadcasts, originally, and the problem is twofold. (They're both owned by the same people, so he speaks for both.) They stopped because of possible legal problems from broadcasting the same shows on 2 stations. The agreement they seek is to allow that. And, they are also looking at going 720p or 1080i, not sure which, and that requires a lot of bandwidth. That would mean the second channel would have to be standard definition. Not much point in that. Before, when both stations were 480p, they both looked good. Not true hi-def, but good. My feeling is they probably won't go back to both stations sharing if one is going to be true HD.
Dan