Any update on when KSTW (UPN 11) will raise their transmitter power? Last reports here were "late summer" .... well, it's now fall. I would sure like to enjoy "Enterprise" in HiDef.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Any update on when KSTW (UPN 11) will raise their transmitter power? Last reports here were "late summer" .... well, it's now fall. I would sure like to enjoy "Enterprise" in HiDef.

According to the FCC, KSTW-DT is still operating with an STA for 68kW, but they have a CP for 850kW. Interestingly, the FCC reports that the CP expired on 12/10/2003?

Originally posted by litzdog911
Any update on when KSTW (UPN 11) will raise their transmitter power? Last reports here were "late summer" .... well, it's now fall. I would sure like to enjoy "Enterprise" in HiDef.

That's funny, I thought they had when I discovered I could recieve it on 8/1/04, pg 63. Did I just point the right way? :eek:

Originally posted by litzdog911
Any update on when KSTW (UPN 11) will raise their transmitter power? Last reports here were "late summer" .... well, it's now fall. I would sure like to enjoy "Enterprise" in HiDef.
The last email I got from their CE was "Octoberish".

Originally posted by tuquet
I too have some minor issues with KING starting early summer. The STBs (TU-DST52 & LST-3510A) seemed slower to lock on the signal and sometimes there were dropouts. It also seems more susceptible to home electronics. When my wife is in the mood of sewing, I simply cannot be in the royal court.

EDIT: I am in Lynnwood

tuquet
You most likely lost signal level between the antenna and your receiver. Check your connections. Frequently I see fittings that are hand tight and not sealed from the weather. As moisture gets in and corrosion starts, it doesn't take much to attenuate a signal. Look at the cable end of your balun on the antenna. You should see shiny metal behind the plastic. If it's dark and rusty colored, or the center pin of the cable is dark instead of shiny copper, that's the trouble.

I haven't seen any drop in KING's power levels doing jobs, but it's always weaker to the east of the tower by a considerable margin. Did one today on the hilltop south of Meydenbauer Bay. Ch's 4 & 7 were +25db & +28db, ch5 only +12db. Huge difference.
Dan

Originally posted by dancook
Coldie,

I've lately been seeing reduced signal strength on KING-5, starting around 9-15-04. Are you having problems with any other channels? Is anybody else noticing recent signal problems with KING-5?

All of my other DTV stations on my OTA antenna have been acting normally during this time so maybe your problem is just with KING. This includes KOMO, KIRO, KCTS. I've always had spotty reception on KCPQ-13 at my location in southwest Queen Anne Hill.

dancook
Ch13 should be very good from there. It's basically line of sight and strong. I would bet you have an antenna that's just not very good at that frequency, ch25uhf, or you may be picking it up on the back side because your aimed NE. The antenna is supposed to reject signals from the opposite direction, but it's so strong, you can still see some signal. A small indoor antenna would probably work, if you have a window facing west. Use an A/B switch to pick between them.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
The last email I got from their CE was "Octoberish".

I fired off an email to KSTW .... hopefully their head engineer will reply and give us an update.

What are the chances of me picking up any Channels with an Antenna from Chehalis/Centralia, WA? One advantage I do have is I live on a hill and have a clear view towards Seattle.

Originally posted by Setzer
What are the chances of me picking up any Channels with an Antenna from Chehalis/Centralia, WA? One advantage I do have is I live on a hill and have a clear view towards Seattle.

Try this site:

http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

BTW, my guess is if you get analog, you could do it.

Originally posted by Setzer
What are the chances of me picking up any Channels with an Antenna from Chehalis/Centralia, WA? One advantage I do have is I live on a hill and have a clear view towards Seattle.
You are about 70 miles from Seattle and have some higher hills near Tenino to overcome. I would say the chances are slim. UHF beyond 60 miles is very tricky and requires a very good antenna mounted way up high (50 feet or more). There have been some AVS members on other forums that were able to go over 70 miles, but that was under ideal conditions with a lot of money and effort to find the right combination of hardware. If you can afford a tower you *might* have a chance but I wouldn't waste the money if it were me. And BTW, Portland looks even worse.

You might send a PM to AVS member DanKurts to see if he has ever done an install that far south.

Originally posted by quarque
You are about 70 miles from Seattle and have some higher hills near Tenino to overcome. I would say the chances are slim. UHF beyond 60 miles is very tricky and requires a very good antenna mounted way up high (50 feet or more). There have been some AVS members on other forums that were able to go over 70 miles, but that was under ideal conditions with a lot of money and effort to find the right combination of hardware. If you can afford a tower you *might* have a chance but I wouldn't waste the money if it were me. And BTW, Portland looks even worse.

You might send a PM to AVS member DanKurts to see if he has ever done an install that far south.

I've done surveys for HD in the Olympia area, Lacey, and even Little Rock. It's there, but barely reads. There are some big 7ft dish type UHF antennas, that might get a few more ounces, but you need pounds. I have put up VHF antennas around there, but signal is weak, snowy even with preamps. UHF is tougher over long distances. Never say never, but.....
On the other hand, I helped a gentleman in Victoria that got some of the Seattle channels with a 4248 and 7775 preamp. Who knows,
I'm willing to try a survey if you want to.
Call me.
Dan
206-794-3993

Originally posted by DanKurts
tuquet
You most likely lost signal level between the antenna and your receiver. Check your connections. Frequently I see fittings that are hand tight and not sealed from the weather. As moisture gets in and corrosion starts, it doesn't take much to attenuate a signal. Look at the cable end of your balun on the antenna. You should see shiny metal behind the plastic. If it's dark and rusty colored, or the center pin of the cable is dark instead of shiny copper, that's the trouble.

I haven't seen any drop in KING's power levels doing jobs, but it's always weaker to the east of the tower by a considerable margin. Did one today on the hilltop south of Meydenbauer Bay. Ch's 4 & 7 were +25db & +28db, ch5 only +12db. Huge difference.
Dan Thanks, it is a possibility but unlikely as my connection is quite simple: 6ft coax from a Silver Sensor. Most channels I got in the 80% except for KBTC around 10%. The funny thing is KBTC is extremely stable which leads me to think that there are other parameters in the reception. BTW, I am not complaining, just chip in my experience.

Originally posted by DanKurts
I've done surveys for HD in the Olympia area, Lacey, and even Little Rock.
Is that Little Rock, Arkansas or *Castle Rock*, WA? Castle Rock is almost 100 miles from Seattle and Little Rock is uhhhhh, 1800. :D :D

Either way, an impressive feat. :) I presume this was VHF only.

Victoria is about 70 miles over water - was that VHF or UHF you worked on?

Originally posted by quarque
Is that Little Rock, Arkansas or *Castle Rock*, WA? Castle Rock is almost 100 miles from Seattle and Little Rock is uhhhhh, 1800. :D :D

LOL, Littlerock is just south of Tumwater. Part of my old drunken high school stomping grounds. :D

Has anyone noticed a difference with KOMO now that they are multi-casting? I don't really watch them enough to tell. I mainly watch their news and MNF, but I didn't have HD last year during MNF so I can't compare.

Originally posted by Karyk
Has anyone noticed a difference with KOMO now that they are multi-casting? I don't really watch them enough to tell. I mainly watch their news and MNF, but I didn't have HD last year during MNF so I can't compare.

No, not that I can tell. KING is also multicasting now and I don't see a difference in their video quality either. Both KOMO and KING's secondary channel is very low resolution, though. Worse that the worst of DirecTV's standard definition channels, so obviously most of their bit rate is devoted to the HiDef channel.

I've been a long time lurker but I've been unable to to answer my own question form existing posts so I guess it's time to post myself...

I live in Woodinville (14605 181st pl ne) and have been trying to get OTA reception but I'm afraid Hollywood (hill) may be too large an obstacle for me. I've got a CM 4228 on a 16' mast on my chimney but I can't get anything but the PAX station or the KWOG (whatever that is). Am I out of luck or has anyone else had any success on the east side of the hill? BTW, I'm in a two story house but I have numerous large trees between me and the top of the hill. When I'm on the roof, I can see day light through the trees so I'm hoping there is some chance. If I walk over to the Tolt pipeline we're not far from the apex of the hill but it's hard to tell how far below the peak I really am.

Thanks all...

Hi quarque,

Could you please tell me about my reception possibilties for over the air hdtv? I'm guessing that the chances are not good :-)

I'm on the SE corner of Lake Sammamish, with a big ridge between me and Seattle. The closet intersection is SE 38th St. and W. Lake Sammamish Pk. SE, I'm at 4000 W. Lake Samm. Pk. SE


Thanks.

Try antennaweb.org for your specific locations.

Originally posted by brentgi
I've been a long time lurker but I've been unable to to answer my own question form existing posts so I guess it's time to post myself...

I live in Woodinville (14605 181st pl ne) and have been trying to get OTA reception but I'm afraid Hollywood (hill) may be too large an obstacle for me. I've got a CM 4228 on a 16' mast on my chimney but I can't get anything but the PAX station or the KWOG (whatever that is). Am I out of luck or has anyone else had any success on the east side of the hill? BTW, I'm in a two story house but I have numerous large trees between me and the top of the hill. When I'm on the roof, I can see day light through the trees so I'm hoping there is some chance. If I walk over to the Tolt pipeline we're not far from the apex of the hill but it's hard to tell how far below the peak I really am.

Thanks all...
Welcome to AVS. Unfortunately, you have a 100-foot rise just to the SW that is blocking your line of sight. You would need to get your antenna about 75 feet off the ground to clear that hill. Barring that, you are SOL.

Originally posted by RazorbackSeattle
Hi quarque,

Could you please tell me about my reception possibilties for over the air hdtv? I'm guessing that the chances are not good :-)

I'm on the SE corner of Lake Sammamish, with a big ridge between me and Seattle. The closet intersection is SE 38th St. and W. Lake Sammamish Pk. SE, I'm at 4000 W. Lake Samm. Pk. SE


Thanks.
That ridge is about 175 feet above you and is blocking line of sight. You would need about 100-foot tower to clear it.

Originally posted by Karyk
Try antennaweb.org for your specific locations.
That will only tell you what is possible under ideal conditions (i.e. flat terrain). You really need to find out (using topography data) what specific conditions exist between a location and the towers. This is what I do for people in the Puget Sound area. antennaweb.org knows nothing about terrain.

Originally posted by Spike89
LOL, Littlerock is just south of Tumwater. Part of my old drunken high school stomping grounds. :D
My bad - I was searching for "Little Rock" not "Littlerock" on my map. I did not know about this glorious place in western Washington. So, the beer is plentiful there, eh?

This is what I do for people in the Puget Sound area. antennaweb.org knows nothing about terrain.

Yes of course antennaweb.org just shows me where to point my antenna. If someone can verify that the topology will allow for ota reception I may need to pay someone to come out and get my reception woes all worked out.

So I live in Sammamish (Timberline) and I have a direct shot over the lake. I get everything really well, except KOMO, which comes in very clearly, freezes on me quite a bit. MNF is hard to watch when you keep freezing up. None of the other stations do this, just KOMO.

Anyone else have this issue?

We live in Sammamish, too, and have this same problem. My understanding is that there's something going on between the Komo signal and the hd receiver you're using. We used to have a MyHD tuner card for our HTPC,and this problem was fixed once a driver release update was provided. But with our HD Tivo, this problem still exists. For the average game, we probably get maybe 5-10 freeze ups that last a few seconds?

Part of the KOMO issue is a problem with the feed from the network. I get the same freezing OTA and through Comcast.

It's not just Sammamish. I live in Fairwood, which is east of Renton, and KOMO is the only major digital station with which I have problems. In spite of a steady signal strength on the HDTivo between 84 and 86, I get picture freezes probably every 5-10 minutes.

Well, it's good to see it's not just me. I hope ABC/KOMO can fix it, because it's maddening. I actually noticed last night that when they went to the news, no issues, so I do believe it is in fact the network feed.

Originally posted by rickeame
Well, it's good to see it's not just me. I hope ABC/KOMO can fix it, because it's maddening. I actually noticed last night that when they went to the news, no issues, so I do believe it is in fact the network feed.

Yes, only the network feed would have Madden. :D

from brentgi: Yes of course antennaweb.org just shows me where to point my antenna. If someone can verify that the topology will allow for ota reception I may need to pay someone to come out and get my reception woes all worked out.

from quarque: Welcome to AVS. Unfortunately, you have a 100-foot rise just to the SW that is blocking your line of sight. You would need to get your antenna about 75 feet off the ground to clear that hill. Barring that, you are SOL.

quarque plots turn out to be pretty accurate. Sounds like you've got about 40' of height w/house and antenna, maybe with a helper watching seattle channels you can find a narrow aiming point or a reflection (but maybe you've tried that). Beyond that DanKurts (see previous page) is the local pro who can assess your site.


I recently added a TB-105 Support Bearing (http://www.aedwis.com/antennarotors.html) giving the mast ontop my rotor great stability and allowing me to use a 10' pole to spread out the 4228 and 4248. Anyone know where I can apply for "monster antennas of the Puget Sound" :rolleyes:

Sounds like you've got about 40' of height w/house and antenna... Beyond that DanKurts (see previous page) is the local pro who can assess your site.

I'll give Dan a call then. Thanks all for the info.

Originally posted by brentgi
Yes of course antennaweb.org just shows me where to point my antenna. If someone can verify that the topology will allow for ota reception I may need to pay someone to come out and get my reception woes all worked out.

That is what I did for you on page 76. I will repeat it again:

Welcome to AVS. Unfortunately, you have a 100-foot rise just to the SW that is blocking your line of sight. You would need to get your antenna about 75 feet off the ground to clear that hill. Barring that, you are SOL.

Paying someone will be a waste of money - you have no chance without a 75-foot tower.

Originally posted by drewba
It's not just Sammamish. I live in Fairwood, which is east of Renton, and KOMO is the only major digital station with which I have problems. In spite of a steady signal strength on the HDTivo between 84 and 86, I get picture freezes probably every 5-10 minutes.
I saw this on all previous MNF games using OTA and I'm only 6 miles from the tower. Since I don't see this on local programming I think it is all network generated. Do you see this on local programs?

Originally posted by quarque
I saw this on all previous MNF games using OTA and I'm only 6 miles from the tower. Since I don't see this on local programming I think it is all network generated. Do you see this on local programs?

I've watched the news a few times and I don't think that it's been an issue. We don't watch much KOMO, but we've definitely seen it on MNF and Alias.

The only thing that gives me pause is that I don't recall it happening with my previous Zenith HD receiver. However, I watched less HD, so I may have just missed it.

Originally posted by tuquet
Thanks, it is a possibility but unlikely as my connection is quite simple: 6ft coax from a Silver Sensor. Most channels I got in the 80% except for KBTC around 10%. The funny thing is KBTC is extremely stable which leads me to think that there are other parameters in the reception. BTW, I am not complaining, just chip in my experience.

tuquet
It's always good to get input on the reception others are getting.
One thing that might help you to understand your problem is your numbers (80%) are signal to noise ratio, not amount of signal received. You could be right on the minimum amount of signal needed to get a channel and get 80%, or have a hundred times more signal level, but if the noise level remains the same, you would still see 80%.
Difference is, if you had something movable in the way like lots of fir tree limbs swaying in the breeze, the change in level may not affect the stonger signal, as you have some margin to work with. This is also where you see weak signals show 100% one minute, and zero the next second, and right back to 100%.
Indoor antennas are far more sensitive to a variety of things that will affect the level. Moving it around the room may not change the percentage, but it might lock in a channel better. Patience is the key here.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
Is that Little Rock, Arkansas or *Castle Rock*, WA? Castle Rock is almost 100 miles from Seattle and Little Rock is uhhhhh, 1800. :D :D

Either way, an impressive feat. :) I presume this was VHF only.

Victoria is about 70 miles over water - was that VHF or UHF you worked on?

quarque
Correct, VHF from south of Olympia. Victoria, though, was HD UHF ! The guy was NE of Victoria, and just cleared the big hill southwest of Port Townsend. Curvature of the earth starts to come into play, but not enough to bother him. His neighbor also got some of the channels.
After all these years, I'm still surprised by what works where!
In the late 60's, saw a ham radio guy's home made diamond shape antenna (kind of like this <> ) pull in Spokane from north of Vantage area. He had staked out 4 tall trees, about 30ft each, on a hillside sloped towards Spokane. The area between the trees was cleared pasture. Then he ran a single exposed wire, from tree to tree to tree, around the diamond like baseball, and put the connection point at the bottom, with twin lead going to his TV. The amazing part is the distance between each tree, 100ft! Not a great picture, but it worked.
Never say never !
Dan

Originally posted by drewba
The only thing that gives me pause is that I don't recall it happening with my previous Zenith HD receiver. However, I watched less HD, so I may have just missed it.

I've had trouble on and off with KOMO for a few months, but the first incidents were short-lived, and manly affected the news (although I don't watch a lot of other ABC, so it could have had broader application).

Point being, you could simply have not been watching in the past when the problems existed. It hasn't been that consistent of a problem.

Has anyone reported the issues with KOMO to them? If so, what is their response?

The problems haven't been that significant for me lately, except during the last MNF game, where the same problem was occuring on Comcast and OTA, so I assumed it was a network issue.

The last time I tried to report something to an affiliate, I think it was KIRO, where they had the HD signal all screwed up (small picture). They apparently either don't have engineers in on weekends or don't give them phones, for calling was a complete waste of time.

Originally posted by quarque
My bad - I was searching for "Little Rock" not "Littlerock" on my map. I did not know about this glorious place in western Washington. So, the beer is plentiful there, eh?
Lets just say that as high school extracurricular activies go, beer was one of the more popular ones to partake in. Not a lot of other entertainment options available around there. But now I got HDTV (and vodka martinis) to keep me occupied in my older age.

Originally posted by drewba
Has anyone reported the issues with KOMO to them? If so, what is their response?

I've been in communication with one of their engineers responsible for their HiDef transmitter and they're aware of the problems and very committed to having the best quality HDTV signal. But it never hurts to call or send an email when you see problems. There's a handy "contact KOMO" link on their Web site.

I heard back from one of KSTW's engineers to my question about when they plan to increase their power from 68kW to 850kW ....

He said they plan to start installing the new antenna equipment next week and expect to be up and running around November 1. Good news!

Quarque could you let me know what the chances are for OTA at SE26th ST in Sammamish, 98075 it intersects with E.Lake Sammamish Parkway

Thanks

Originally posted by aubreye
Quarque could you let me know what the chances are for OTA at SE26th ST in Sammamish, 98075 it intersects with E.Lake Sammamish Parkway

Thanks
You have some 350+ foot hills on the other side of the lake that are blocking direct line of sight. You would need a 75+ foot tower to clear those hills.

Just had my D* DNS waiver request denied by KIRO--even though I get terrible reception (ghosting, etc.) even on the analog channel. Is there anything I can do? Per the D* website, I get a Grade A signal. Per quarque, I'd need a 150' tower to receive hd signals from the Queen Anne transmitters. Evidently KIRO just looks at zipcodes or distance only. Thanks.

Originally posted by Baldone01
Just had my D* DNS waiver request denied by KIRO--even though I get terrible reception (ghosting, etc.) even on the analog channel. Is there anything I can do? Per the D* website, I get a Grade A signal. Per quarque, I'd need a 150' tower to receive hd signals from the Queen Anne transmitters. Evidently KIRO just looks at zipcodes or distance only. Thanks.

I've heard that you can demand that KIRO come out and test for signal quality and usability at your site (after they turn you down on your waiver request).

I don't know the process, but I have heard that the station is responsible for proving that you can or cannot get a usable picture.

Perhaps someone here has direct experience with this process.

Sorry I don't have accurate or complete info--just faint memories of examples I have read here on the forum some time ago.

Good luck!

Perhaps some of these "prove it" requests will contribute to getting Cox and Comcast to remember their customers are the victims here.

Thanks for the quick response Budget_HT. I also recently requested a waiver directly from KING. Their response was that their corporate office (Belo) was not granting ANY waivers at this time. Anyone else have this problem? Suggestions? Oh well, guess I'll keep bugging 'em.

Baldone01 - Perhaps if you post a general thread on the subject in the Reception forum (instead of inside this thread) you can get some responses from people in other markets about the process they went through. Other than that, try contacting the management of KIRO by phone or in person. Sometimes going up a rung or two in the corporate structure gets you the response you want. The other place to go is the FCC. If KIRO is not following the rules or not offering to do the tests then the FCC might help. What ever way you go, this may take weeks or months and a lot of perseverance. This is pretty much a David vs. Goliath thing. I wish you good luck and we are all anxious to see how far you can take this. Remember: "no balls, no babies" -Mark Cuban

Edit: did some research on this at FCC site and found this FAQ:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/shviafac.html

It lays out 3 ways one can be designated an "unserved household". One way is to obtain a waiver, one is to show your dish is on a vehicle and the final one is you can't receive a signal of "Grade B" quality. This link is to FCC order 00-185 that talks about how computer models are used to decide who can get a signal: http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/2000/fcc00185.txt

I also emailed my contact at KOMO (retired) to see if he knows anything about this process. The key is proving you don't get a Grade B signal, whatever that is. One thing that is not clear is whether or not they can say "yes, you get a crappy Grade B ANALOG signal, so you are SOL" - can they ignore the DIGITAL signal level? It would seem that the local station or their agent has to go to your location and test the signal. So far I have not seen that part in writing.

Question: DirectTV wesbsite says you can get locals at zip 98312 on their channels 961-971 - yes? A DNS waiver is to get stations OTHER than the locals. There are no HD locals available from any city - so you're wanting the waiver to get SD networks from another city? I'm confused.

Quarque, thanks for your response. Now, I'm confused. Yes, I can receive my locals in SD from D*. I thought that I would need a waiver in order to receive an HD network signal, i.e. NBC, CBS, since I cannot receive an HD signal from any local station other than fox (KCPQ). My desire was to be able to watch the networks in HD. So I guess that you're telling me that I'm sol? I guess that my only option (if that's the case) is to get the locals (in HD) via cable? Oh well, it's only money. It does seem ridiculous to have to have, and pay, D* & cable just to have a dozen or so HD channels. Anyway, thanks again.

It would seem that if you do not get a GRADE B signal then you should get a waiver. It does not appear that D* has any network HD from anywhere yet, but it is coming "soon". From the FCC site it appears that you should request a signal test from D* and either they or the locals pay for it depending on whether you do or don't have GRADE B signals. I think that is your next move. The FCC fully recognizes that the computer model they use for determining coverages is somewhat lacking in accuracy and resolution. But it looks like there is a path for appeals. Here is part of the FCC rules:

12. What happens if the request for a waiver is denied?

A: The SHVIA provides that if the local network TV station(s) denies the request for a waiver, the subscriber may submit a request to the satellite company to have a signal strength test performed at the subscriber’s location to determine whether the subscriber’s signal is at least Grade B intensity. The satellite company and the local network TV station(s) that denied the waiver will then select a qualified and independent person to conduct the signal test. SHVIA requires that the test be performed no more than 30 days after the subscriber submits the request to the satellite provider. If the test reveals that the subscriber does not receive at least a Grade B signal of the local network TV station, the subscriber may receive the signal of a distant TV station that is affiliated with that network.

13. Suppose the satellite company and the TV station do not agree on the person to conduct the signal strength test?

A: In the event that a satellite company and the TV station are unable to agree, SHVIA requires that the FCC designate an independent and neutral entity to select the person or organization to conduct the test. On May 26, 2000, the FCC issued a Report and Order, FCC 00-185, which designated the American Radio Relay League (“ARRL”) as the independent and neutral entity for this purpose. The satellite provider and the TV station are supposed to work with the ARRL to select the person or organization that will conduct the signal strength test. The ARRL cannot designate the person or organization to conduct the test in response to a request from a consumer.

14. Who pays for the signal strength test?

A: SHVIA states that unless the satellite company and the TV station agree otherwise, either the TV station or the satellite company will pay the expense of the test. If the test shows that the satellite subscriber is able to receive a signal of at least Grade B, the satellite company will pay for the test. If the test reveals that the satellite subscriber cannot receive a Grade B signal, the TV station will pay for the test.

Baldone01 - I forgot one other possible route to a waiver: buy a cheap pickup with a camper and put your dish on it. It is now considered an RV installation and waivers are much easier to get... :D

Originally posted by quarque
It does not appear that D* has any network HD from anywhere yet, but it is coming "soon".


Yes D* does provide distant network HD channels.

I'm here in Duvall and received the waivers many years ago...and I receive 80 CBS (NY) / 81 CBS (LA) and 82 NBC (NY)/ 83 NBC(LA) in HD...Still waiting for the Distant Fox and ABC in HD!


Good Luck!

I emailed DirecTV to find out what the projected timeline is for HD locals and this is what they emailed back:

quote:
Thanks for writing. On September 16, DIRECTV began offering NBC-HDTV to
customers in selected areas of the country where we have permission from
the local broadcasters. We also offer CBS-HDTV in select markets, and we
hope to have an agreement with FOX to offer their HDTV broadcasts soon.

To be eligible for the CBS-HDTV or NBC-HDTV broadcast you must live in
an area where the network owns the local station, have high-definition
DIRECTV equipment (HD television, DIRECTV HD receiver and triple-LNB
dish) and subscribe to a local channel or HD Package from DIRECTV. Once
you have the right equipment and subscribe to either package, you'll be
able to get CBS-HDTV and NBC-HDTV broadcasts in the 80-83 channel range.
Just tune in whenever CBS or NBC lists a program as "Broadcast in High
Definition Where Available." -end quote


Hmmmm, what about the part: "you must live in
an area where the network owns the local station...". Are any of the Seattle locals network owned?

As far as I know, only the UPN affiliate (KSTW) is o&o.

Originally posted by Baldone01
As far as I know, only the UPN affiliate (KSTW) is o&o.

Correct. Our major network affiliates are not owned by the networks.

I have been lurking in the background for quite awhile but now that I see others in the outlying areas showing up I thought I would comment on what I have done so far out in the Yelm area. First of all I wasn't sure I stood a chance at OTA. I live within 150 ft of the BPA towers and must get past them. I am also surrounded by 100 ft plus fir trees I must to through. However I've got to try - right ? So 35 ft up goes a 4228 with a 7775 pre-amp and surprise ---KCTS, KCPQ, KBCT, KWPX and a religous ch. and shopping ch. are all clear and strong. But I want more and so stacking two 4228's comes next and now I also have KSTW and sometimes ( mostly at night or early morning for some reason ) KOMO, KING, KIRO and KTWB. If only it was always. I may try the only location I have that will miss the trees but that puts me closer to the BPA and I learned more than 20 years ago that a tv antenna to high will give a nasty static electrical charge so that would force me to lower my antenna from the current 35 ft. That's my story to this point

Originally posted by forum junkie
I have been lurking in the background for quite awhile but now that I see others in the outlying areas showing up I thought I would comment on what I have done so far out in the Yelm area. First of all I wasn't sure I stood a chance at OTA. I live within 150 ft of the BPA towers and must get past them. I am also surrounded by 100 ft plus fir trees I must to through. However I've got to try - right ? So 35 ft up goes a 4228 with a 7775 pre-amp and surprise ---KCTS, KCPQ, KBCT, KWPX and a religous ch. and shopping ch. are all clear and strong. But I want more and so stacking two 4228's comes next and now I also have KSTW and sometimes ( mostly at night or early morning for some reason ) KOMO, KING, KIRO and KTWB. If only it was always. I may try the only location I have that will miss the trees but that puts me closer to the BPA and I learned more than 20 years ago that a tv antenna to high will give a nasty static electrical charge so that would force me to lower my antenna from the current 35 ft. That's my story to this point
Very intertesting and welcome to AVS! I would like to know your nearest intersection or lat,lon so I can check your terrain. Yelm is about 50 miles out and on a slight plateau, which helps a lot.

If your antenna(s) and pole/tower are properly grounded you should not have too many problems with charge building up. Will you go for a vertical stack or horizontal stack? I believe the "focus" narrows in the direction of the stack, so vertical is usually chosen unless you have a narrow tower spread to cover. From your area you have about 30 degrees to cover if you want KCPQ. That might be tougher with a horizontal stack. Due north splits the difference between Bremerton and Seattle (or do you have a rotor?).

Looking at my topo map I see a spiderweb of powerlines around Yelm. Yikes! What are you guys doing down there?

Originally posted by forum junkie
.... But I want more and so stacking two 4228's comes next and now I also have KSTW and sometimes ( mostly at night or early morning for some reason ) KOMO, KING, KIRO and KTWB. ...

I'm amazed you can get KSTW's digital channel out at 50 miles since they're only transmitting at 68kW now. I can't get anything and I'm only 14 miles away, but perhaps their signal is aimed more toward your direction. They're supposed to up their power to 850kW in November.

Quarque my closest intersection would be 103rd and Canal Rd. and my house is probably an 60 ft. drop in elevation from that point. That static charge I mentioned isn't something you can get rid of by grounding. On a foggy day just walking under them will make the hair on your arms stand up. Twenty feet up is about all you can go that close to the lines. I tried another 10 ft and when I tried to hook to coax up it knocked me to the ground. That is why I'm doing my best to find a spot through the trees. I cut mine ---- now if the neighbors would do the same --- problem solved. I used the vertical stack and that's what brought in KSTW and the networks. KSTW I have most the time with minor dropouts so when they are at full power it shouldn't be a problem. 4-5-7- and 22 are the ones I want most but so far it is only after 8pm and early moring. They are clear and very few dropouts but no signal during the day. Ch. 13 is always strong so that gets me the SeaHawks in HD. In fact I could get 13 while my antenna was laying on the roof waiting to go up. Stacking 2 4228's though needs more than one person. I just about lost it before I finally got it under control. 30 pounds on a 25ft pole on the roof was just about too much.

junkie - you definitely have no hills in the way. I am perplexed about your saying "60 ft drop in elevation" since the topo map shows no more than about 20 feet difference until you go a few hundred feet east across Bridge Rd. where it drops off to the canal. There is a low spot under the power lines but that is only 20 feet below the intersection. Anyway, it looks like you are fighting trees and reflections more than anything. Is your house right under the power lines? Good luck and play it safe. HD is not worth dying for...

Originally posted by forum junkie
Quarque my closest intersection would be 103rd and Canal Rd. and my house is probably an 60 ft. drop in elevation from that point. That static charge I mentioned isn't something you can get rid of by grounding. On a foggy day just walking under them will make the hair on your arms stand up. Twenty feet up is about all you can go that close to the lines. I tried another 10 ft and when I tried to hook to coax up it knocked me to the ground. That is why I'm doing my best to find a spot through the trees. I cut mine ---- now if the neighbors would do the same --- problem solved. I used the vertical stack and that's what brought in KSTW and the networks. KSTW I have most the time with minor dropouts so when they are at full power it shouldn't be a problem. 4-5-7- and 22 are the ones I want most but so far it is only after 8pm and early moring. They are clear and very few dropouts but no signal during the day. Ch. 13 is always strong so that gets me the SeaHawks in HD. In fact I could get 13 while my antenna was laying on the roof waiting to go up. Stacking 2 4228's though needs more than one person. I just about lost it before I finally got it under control. 30 pounds on a 25ft pole on the roof was just about too much.

forum junkie
The reason for night reception is the same one for getting AM radio better at night-the Sun. It's noise level drops off, so your signal to noise ratio gets better. The transmitters level is still the same, so you're above minimum levels for the decoder to lock in, or pick out the real signal from all the noise. The fact that reception drops during the day suggests you're right on the ragged edge for those channels, even with the two antennas and preamp.
Some tips.
One of the bad things about stacking is you don't get two times the gain across the whole UHF band. Moving the the two antennas further apart or closer together changes the gain at a particular frequency. It can also cut some other channels back in gain. Some aptience and a lot of trial and error could very well get those other channels in.
Make sure the leads between the two antennas to where they come together are exactly the same length, too.
Also DO ground the antenna, AND the coax cable at the mast. Yes, there's still some static charge, but it will help bleed off a lot of it, which will help that signal/noise ratio. Connect the antenna end of the ground wire, first, then connect the ground wire to the ground rod. That way, if you happen to have some static build up and get a bit of a snap, you won't have as far to fall down!!

quarque
I also have the Topo program, used it for years. It's close, but not that close for accuracy. Good enough for getting a good look at things, within it's limits. I would tend to believe him more about the 60ft drop than the map. I wish it were that accurate, but for the price of the program, it's just not there. Also the lat/long part is not linear when you zoom in/out. I have a GPS on my laptop, and have compared it with what Topo says as I move around. Again, close, but not laser accurate. Sure is fun to use, though.

litzdog
Ch11 transmits with more than 68kw. How much, I don't know, haven't talked with them for a while. I have watched them since they started HD, and what comes across the meter tells me it's a lot more than that. When they first came on it was around 450kw, and with a temporary antenna, too. What I see around the area, compared to KBTC, which is 6kw, tells me that it's closer to the 450kw number. It is weaker than 22 or 9, which are all located on one block and have more power, but comes through far better than other weaker stations I have worked with. I would tend to believe that it's the forrest you live in around Mill Creek that's giving you the weak ch11, while all the rest come in stronger. I've seen it happen on all the channels at one location or another. When they do raise power, it may be enough to lock in for you. Let us know what happens, or if you hear of the exact date for increase.

Dan

I also live in the Yelm area near 4 corners. I just got a new TV with a built in Hi def tuner. I also have Hi Def Directv. I can run the antenna through either setup. My question: I noticed the ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox high def channels are 4-1,5-1 etc, are these UHF or VHF ? My understanding was UHF was from channel 14 and up, VHF all lower. Do I need to get a combo (VHF/UHF) attenna to get all the high def local channels? Or can I go with a CM 4228 like I planned?
Thanks for any info you shoot my way:confused:

Radtek:
All local HD channels in Seattle are UHF. The channels you list (4.1, 5.1...) are just mapped versions of the actual channels. The actual channels are:
38 = 4.1
39 = 7.1
48 = 5.1

There aren't any channels in the Puget sound sending HD signals out in VHF. Not sure if that will ever change, but for now you should be good with a UHF only antenna (4228).
Tom

Thanks Tab, for clarifying that for me. Hey I know where Forum Junkies at ....and yeah they do have some power lines out there, whenever I drive by the plate in my head picks up KISW!:D

KISW! bummer - you should resize your plate for a better station! :D :D

Just for grins, if you haven't bought a 4228 yet, try a 4248 (aka 3023) and see if it is any better. Different antennas work better/worse in different areas. Dan seems to prefer the 4248 yagi.

Originally posted by DanKurts
litzdog
Ch11 transmits with more than 68kw. How much, I don't know, haven't talked with them for a while. I have watched them since they started HD, and what comes across the meter tells me it's a lot more than that. When they first came on it was around 450kw, and with a temporary antenna, too. What I see around the area, compared to KBTC, which is 6kw, tells me that it's closer to the 450kw number. It is weaker than 22 or 9, which are all located on one block and have more power, but comes through far better than other weaker stations I have worked with. I would tend to believe that it's the forrest you live in around Mill Creek that's giving you the weak ch11, while all the rest come in stronger. I've seen it happen on all the channels at one location or another. When they do raise power, it may be enough to lock in for you. Let us know what happens, or if you hear of the exact date for increase.

Dan

Here's what I heard back from KSTW's Chief Engineer ....

we are currently at 68kw....the 450kw was never a valid power level...I had to have that changed long ago because the FCC database had us at a higher elevation from the 1980 survey than we actually were. our new antenna/transmitter combo will be for a 850Kw when we're done later this month.

They must currently have an interesting directional pattern that allows reception in places like Yelm with only 68kW! At any rate, looks like they'll be comparable to the other full power Seattle stations by November 1.

Quarque, I ordered the 4228 already. But I took a look at the 4248 it looks like it would be more directional then the 4228? And being where I'm at I would be at the limits of its rated distance of 45 miles. So stayed with the 4228. Sounds like its kind of a crap shoot anyway, we will see. Actually I have no plate in my head , just being funny? BUT! The fillings in my teeth do start giving a feedback hum and my Timex does occasionally run backward when I do go through Forum Junkies neighborhood!:D

radtek - well I have always been a proponent of the 4228 but Dan insists the 4248 has outperformed it again and again. Looking at the specs and gain plots the two are more similar than they are different. On paper the 4228 looks more directional and has higher average gain. The main differences are in the off-axis "lobes" in the plot that indicate sensitivity to signals coming in at an angle. I followed the debate on these two over on the hardware forum way back when and the 4228 outperformed the 4248 in most of the real installations under test. So, who knows? I just thought it would be interesting to have both styles in that area for a side-by-side test, so to speak.

Timex?!?! People still wear those things!?!? :D

Quarque - thanks for the info. Happy to know it's fairly flat if I have to lower the height to get out of the trees. The elevation thing probably lies close but not 100% like DanKurts said. The hill portion on my drive is at least 150ft of 6% grade. But the toe of the hill is in fact the lowest point and then starts a slight incline toward Bridge Road. My house lies between the two and so is most likely closer to only 40ft of drop in elevation. From Bridge road it start to decline again toward the canal as you said.
Thanks for your info DanKurts - it helps to explain the night time thing. Gonna half to see what works on that noise ratio. I had forgotton your point on cable length. I read it but completely blew it. Damn - down it comes again. One cable is twice the length of the other. That will give me a chance to start the trial and error on spacing. I read that it matters for different signals but the first pictures I saw using the 4228 for stacking ( both for 16 bay and 32 bay ) showed them almost together and so that's the way I started.
radtek - nice to see someone else trying it from out here. I thought about just hopeing Seattle would be in the first 500 Directv is planning but damn it I'm just to impatient. Sounds like you ordered your 4228 --- I picked my first one up at Fry's in Renton for 49.99. It's an hour drive but I can spend hours in that place. The second one I got at Sky Systems on the hill between Lacey and Olympia ( I can never remember weather it is 4th or 5th that runs up the hill ) Owners Scott and Bonney are formerly from Yelm. Bonney is at least 3rd or 4th generation. They sell for 69.99 but a much shorter drive when your in a hurry.

Hello All,

I finally got my Dad up in Arlington to take the plunge and get HD through directv. Now I'm trying to get him going with OTA. The 4228 is on order and I'm wondering if anyone else on this thread remembers anyone getting OTA from Seattle so far north.

I guess we could go with a preamp, too, right? Is the CM 7775 the best choice? If we're this far out and not getting much of a signal will the preamp save our behinds?

He lives near 257th St. N.E., Arlington, WA 98223.

I think Quarque did a LOS plot a while back and things were marginal. Any tips from anyone as we proceed?

Originally posted by felthove
Hello All,

I finally got my Dad up in Arlington to take the plunge and get HD through directv. Now I'm trying to get him going with OTA. The 4228 is on order and I'm wondering if anyone else on this thread remembers anyone getting OTA from Seattle so far north.

I guess we could go with a preamp, too, right? Is the CM 7775 the best choice? If we're this far out and not getting much of a signal will the preamp save our behinds?

He lives near 257th St. N.E., Arlington, WA 98223.

I think Quarque did a LOS plot a while back and things were marginal. Any tips from anyone as we proceed?

You've picked a known good antenna and I would recommend getting the preamp also. Hopefully your dad can mount the antenna up high (it's not that big).

Originally posted by quarque
Fox is showing footbal in 720p and I believe they are migrating away from 480 on other stuff. You can combine two antennas using a cheapo Rat Shack combiner - some have had success. The "professional" way is to order a Channel Master JoinTenna for channel 18 (13's digital freq.). This helps prevent crosstalk between the antennas at similar frequencies. You can also run a cable from each down to your tuner and use an A-B switch to select the antenna (also cheap at RS).

Do you know of a local (greater Seattle/Tacoma) retailer/dealer that carries the ChannelMaster Join-Tenna's or a similar product? I'd like to attempt what you describe above since I am only able to get 22-1 via an indoor silver sensor pointed less westwardly than my roof top antenna. (I'm on Beacon Hill, near Boeing Field)

I've attempted joining the two antennas with a combiner-splitter, but 5-1 just seems to disappear completely in this setup. I currently have a A-B switch attached, but this doesn't work for my Tivo when I'm not home.

Originally posted by felthove
Hello All,

I finally got my Dad up in Arlington to take the plunge and get HD through directv. Now I'm trying to get him going with OTA. The 4228 is on order and I'm wondering if anyone else on this thread remembers anyone getting OTA from Seattle so far north.

I guess we could go with a preamp, too, right? Is the CM 7775 the best choice? If we're this far out and not getting much of a signal will the preamp save our behinds?

He lives near 257th St. N.E., Arlington, WA 98223.

I think Quarque did a LOS plot a while back and things were marginal. Any tips from anyone as we proceed?
Yes I remember checking that area before. His antenna would have to be at least 40 feet up to have a clear shot at the towers. This would be a 15-foot mast on a 2-story house. Not easy, but not impossible to DIY. You may get some signal refraction off the nearby hill so start out with a 5-10 foot mast and see what shows up. The distance is 42 miles so it is easily within the range of the 4228 but I would throw in the 7775 while you're up there.

Originally posted by gquan
Do you know of a local (greater Seattle/Tacoma) retailer/dealer that carries the ChannelMaster Join-Tenna's or a similar product? I'd like to attempt what you describe above since I am only able to get 22-1 via an indoor silver sensor pointed less westwardly than my roof top antenna. (I'm on Beacon Hill, near Boeing Field)

I've attempted joining the two antennas with a combiner-splitter, but 5-1 just seems to disappear completely in this setup. I currently have a A-B switch attached, but this doesn't work for my Tivo when I'm not home.
I don't know of anyone in the area (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) - most people order one online. Warren electronics carries them. You need model 0585-1. Their price is $25.34. The only places that might be worth trying around here is Fry's in Renton or Pringles in Everett.

Originally posted by quarque
I don't know of anyone in the area (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) - most people order one online. Warren electronics carries them. You need model 0585-1. Their price is $25.34. The only places that might be worth trying around here is Fry's in Renton or Pringles in Everett.

Fry's at Renton doesn't carry the product.

I have a 15-16' VHF/UHF antenna with Archie rotor. You can find more information on page38 in this thread. It currently lean agaist the fence and take up space. Anyone who interest, haul it away.

Finally I got to hook up my DB2 antenna from antennasdirect and I am able to recieve the following
KOMO : 39
KIRO: 38
FOX: 18 (strength 50%)
PBS: 41 (strength 50%)
KONG:
WB: on 22(full 95% strength)

What do I need to do to get KING. I get nothing from it now. I get KONG with full strength, so I was wondering why I dont get KING. Can someone help.

Can someone suggest a good pre-amp so that I can boot signal strength. I am running a 50 foot cable. I have tried the ones from Radio Shack, but they just dont help.

I live in Issaquah: Near intersection of Issq Fall City Rd and Issq Pine Lake Road

The Channel Master 7777 and 7775 get good reviews ....

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/TitanAmp.htm

What receiver are you using? How high have you mounted your antenna?

My antenna is placed just below my roof(2 floor house). The reciever is a Dish Network 6000.

KSTW DT is indeed directional...since we're a Tacoma licensed station, and our transmit facilities are located on Cap Hill in Seattle, we had to use a directional pattern to get a 41dbu coverage signal across our city of license, Tacoma. We run about 6kw into a directional antenna with a gain of 11, aimed to the S/SW of Seattle.
That is why people in Yelm, Renton, Tacoma, etc...get us and Mill Creek does not.
Our new antenna, which I just literally kissed, is on the ground today as it arrived at our site yesterday. This antenna will radiate in a peanut pattern focusing the RF energy to the due north and 15 degrees to the SW in a pattern to match the puget sound area. We'll have ample energy in the E/W direction, we're just trying to stay out of the mountains....kills digital bits! Our antenna is also a new Ch. 11 antenna for our analog signal. It too is a peanut shaped pattern.
This antenna is the newest technology by Dieletric corporation that allows a High VHF and UHF in the same physical antenna. This means less weight and windload on the tower as well as giving us a top mounted apparatus with no "shadow".
So, look for the re-vitalized KSTW UPN11 and KSTW DT with an improved over the air signal....in time for the November sweeps. ('ya think it was planned this way??!!)
Rdiotte
CE, KSTW

Thanks a lot Ron for the update. We always appreciate direct input from people in key positions at local stations. Your new setup will surely make a big difference to a lot of people.

Originally posted by booziboy
Finally I got to hook up my DB2 antenna from antennasdirect and I am able to recieve the following
KOMO : 39
KIRO: 38
FOX: 18 (strength 50%)
PBS: 41 (strength 50%)
KONG:
WB: on 22(full 95% strength)

What do I need to do to get KING. I get nothing from it now. I get KONG with full strength, so I was wondering why I dont get KING. Can someone help.

Can someone suggest a good pre-amp so that I can boot signal strength. I am running a 50 foot cable. I have tried the ones from Radio Shack, but they just dont help.

I live in Issaquah: Near intersection of Issq Fall City Rd and Issq Pine Lake Road
The radiation pattern for KING is peanut shaped - directing most of the signal north and south. The DB2 (double bowtie) is not a very high gain unit and so you may need a better antenna. Preamps can't make up for low signal/noise ratio. You need more metal for that (more antenna elements). A 4-bay or 8-bay bowtie (DB8 or 4228) will do much better. Also consider a high-gain yagi style like the CM4248 (Hi Dan!). Can you return your DB2 to antennasdirect for a DB8 or 43XG?

Originally posted by quarque
radtek - well I have always been a proponent of the 4228 but Dan insists the 4248 has outperformed it again and again. Looking at the specs and gain plots the two are more similar than they are different. On paper the 4228 looks more directional and has higher average gain. The main differences are in the off-axis "lobes" in the plot that indicate sensitivity to signals coming in at an angle. I followed the debate on these two over on the hardware forum way back when and the 4228 outperformed the 4248 in most of the real installations under test. So, who knows? I just thought it would be interesting to have both styles in that area for a side-by-side test, so to speak.

Timex?!?! People still wear those things!?!? :D

radtek
You are correct, the 4248 is more directional than the 4228, a lot more. However, from where you are, all the channels are close enough together it's not going to make any difference to the 4248, with the exception of 13. It is off to the side a bit, but because it's located so much higher and it's probably almost line of sight, it has a very good chance of coming in. The 4228 could do both directions easily. Stacking is going to narrow it's ability a bit, but it's so wide to begin with, you'll have a lot to play with.
Here's an excellent site with lots of good info on stacking
http://kyes.info/antenna/stacking.html
Try to keep everything as close to identical as you can on the two antennas. Make the mast install strong, they'll create a good windload, and you do get some good winds there! Keep any guy wires below the antennas. Let us know what you end up with.

quarque
Antenna specs are nice for general info, lobes and all, but the real world reception ability of each antenna type can be very different. How they react to signals coming in off axis (all 3 axis') is amazing, compared to what their claims are. The 4248 usually has 2 fairly good additional reception "lobes" at about 30 and 60 degrees off axis that can be used to advantage if you're working two basic directions. It's narrow and sometimes tricky to find, but can be done, with much cleaner, flatter signals which decoders like. You can also use this to null out something if needed, obviously. The 4228 just acts like sponge, and soaks in everything. Very hard to tweak or play with it. Lobes? Yup, one big fat one, at least 60 degrees either side of center. The 4221, which I use a lot, is even wider! I know the specs say otherwise, but my meter and customers decoders don't lie. Each antenna has it's place. I like Bow-tie type antennas, far easier to mount in odd places with good results. Yagi's like to be above and don't end mount, so they limit your possible mounting spots. Of the many jobs I do each year, I use many 4221's, for close in work, and a variety of yagi's in the woods and/or out in the boonies. I always have one of each in my van, never know what works where. Number of 4228's used in the last 5 years, two. Yagis, hundreds. 4221's, hundreds. How many times have I dragged my 4228 out of the garage to try it? The first two years or so, almost every job that looked like it might be tough. After that, once in a blue moon when I drag out everything for that Mission Impossible. Where I have I tried it? ALL over western Washington, Yakima area, all around the Portland suburbs, a dozen sites around the Bay area, and up north to Santa Rosa, San Ramon, and more. Only In Santa Rosa, where it was over 60 miles to the towers and flat open almost line of sight terrain did it work better, a little, but not on one station, which just happened to be the one they wanted, so the slightly weaker overall 4248 was used. In Santa Clara/San Jose, a 4248 smoked the 4228 on the Sutro stations, also line of sight, 43 miles, with ch36 and a few close by other stations coming in fine from almost directly behind it!
I'm rambling again, yeah, yeah.
My long and windy point.
There's specs, which help compare, and then there's real world. If one flavor doesn't do it for you, try another. There really, REALLY is a difference between all these antennas, and NONE is right for every place all the time!

Status: have tried the SquareShooter, unamplified to get a true reading, in a dozen places, not seeing anything special about it. Not bad, but not great either. It's small enough that it doesn't take up too much space in the van, so I'll keep testing it against my others. The 4221 has bested it every time.
Channel 18 filters/traps: The trap worked great, but the filter flubbed, but it was so bad, I'm sure it was not tweaked correctly. The manufacturer agreed, and is still working on a replacement, arrrgghh. Have a perfect test for it in Pioneer Sq. if they would just send me one...... Stay tuned litzdog.

Dan

Originally posted by rdiotte
KSTW DT is indeed directional...since we're a Tacoma licensed station, and our transmit facilities are located on Cap Hill in Seattle, we had to use a directional pattern to get a 41dbu coverage signal across our city of license, Tacoma. We run about 6kw into a directional antenna with a gain of 11, aimed to the S/SW of Seattle.
That is why people in Yelm, Renton, Tacoma, etc...get us and Mill Creek does not.
Our new antenna, which I just literally kissed, is on the ground today as it arrived at our site yesterday. This antenna will radiate in a peanut pattern focusing the RF energy to the due north and 15 degrees to the SW in a pattern to match the puget sound area. We'll have ample energy in the E/W direction, we're just trying to stay out of the mountains....kills digital bits! Our antenna is also a new Ch. 11 antenna for our analog signal. It too is a peanut shaped pattern.
This antenna is the newest technology by Dieletric corporation that allows a High VHF and UHF in the same physical antenna. This means less weight and windload on the tower as well as giving us a top mounted apparatus with no "shadow".
So, look for the re-vitalized KSTW UPN11 and KSTW DT with an improved over the air signal....in time for the November sweeps. ('ya think it was planned this way??!!)
Rdiotte
CE, KSTW

Rdiotte
Great news! Noticed you were off Thursday afternoon, assume you were getting ready for the change.
Curious, what do you estimate the ERP is on the old antenna at the max gain directions. I know it says 68kw at the FCC, but curious what was actually being pumped out. What will be your estimated ERP on the new one, antenna gain and all? Will the polar plot be the same? And will you be doing any sub channels and if so, what resolution?
Thanks
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
The radiation pattern for KING is peanut shaped - directing most of the signal north and south. The DB2 (double bowtie) is not a very high gain unit and so you may need a better antenna. Preamps can't make up for low signal/noise ratio. You need more metal for that (more antenna elements). A 4-bay or 8-bay bowtie (DB8 or 4228) will do much better. Also consider a high-gain yagi style like the CM4248 (Hi Dan!). Can you return your DB2 to antennasdirect for a DB8 or 43XG?

I am in talks with antennasdirect to see if I can get a replacement. I dont want to have a big antenna sticking out of my backside of the house. I like the DB2 as it was small(almost like a dish).

Today morning and yesterday night after doing some more wiring(removing some splitters etc), and looks like now I get even KING, but the signal strength is fluctuating between 55% to 65%. Today it is raining, and I am still gettig some breaks.

Maybe I shall investigate if I can get DB4 or maybe more uni-directional style smaller antenna(I cannot afford to have a 5 feet antenna, will not pass wife's test). Any more suggestions from antennadirect website.

thanks

I have the small DB2 antenna installed myself, just below the roof and works fine but still have some more reception issues with KING and FOX sometimes breaks.

If I have to get a 4228 or 4248 installed on the roof where I think I will get better reception and my wife would approve it if it is not in her sight. I would have a installer get it done. I dont have a big ladder and have never gone up to the roof.

What can I expect to pay. I can do the wiring and connections. I just need someone to secure the antenna and rest I can take care.

Anyone in the Issaquah/Seattle area.

The KSTW 68kw DT signal is a circular shaped pattern with all the energy radiating out from the antenna...i.e. there is very little signal to the immediate north, northwest, or northeast...all our signal aperature is aimed at the south, south west, toward tacoma.
Our CP for full power DT is for an 850Kw ERP in a modified peanut shaped pattern matching the lowlands of the Puget Sound area and the counties to the north and south.
UPN is owned by CBS, CBS engineering manages what we put on our digital stream(s). As of this writing the UPN O & O's broadcast a single channel upconverted or native 1080i stream. When UPN network sends us 1080i widescreen, we air it, otherwise you're viewing our analog programming, upconverted and at a 4 x 3 screen ratio. There are discussions at corporate levels for the prospect of multiple streams, but nothing has been decided.
R Diotte
CE, KSTW

Originally posted by rdiotte
Our CP for full power DT is for an 850Kw ERP in a modified peanut shaped pattern matching the lowlands of the Puget Sound area and the counties to the north and south.

I've actually liked KSTW's power as-is. :D No signal overload as on KCTS-DT and KTWB-DT! (I'm only about 7 blocks northwest of the Captiol Hill antenna farm.)

On a related note... KSTW-TV's always thrown a lot of first adjacent channel interference into (an adequately strong, otherwise) KVOS-TV for me. Right now, I get zilch on KVOS-DT since they're on a lower power STA, but was wondering, if once KSTW-DT and KVOS-DT are at full power, ought I expect KSTW-DT 36 to obliterate KVOS-DT 35 as happens on analogue? Or are digital signals differently behaved?

Originally posted by DanKurts
quarque
Antenna specs are nice for general info, lobes and all, but the real world reception ability of each antenna type can be very different. How they react to signals coming in off axis (all 3 axis') is amazing, compared to what their claims are. The 4248 usually has 2 fairly good additional reception "lobes" at about 30 and 60 degrees off axis that can be used to advantage if you're working two basic directions. It's narrow and sometimes tricky to find, but can be done, with much cleaner, flatter signals which decoders like. You can also use this to null out something if needed, obviously. The 4228 just acts like sponge, and soaks in everything. Very hard to tweak or play with it. Lobes? Yup, one big fat one, at least 60 degrees either side of center. The 4221, which I use a lot, is even wider! I know the specs say otherwise, but my meter and customers decoders don't lie. Each antenna has it's place. I like Bow-tie type antennas, far easier to mount in odd places with good results. Yagi's like to be above and don't end mount, so they limit your possible mounting spots. Of the many jobs I do each year, I use many 4221's, for close in work, and a variety of yagi's in the woods and/or out in the boonies. I always have one of each in my van, never know what works where. Number of 4228's used in the last 5 years, two. Yagis, hundreds. 4221's, hundreds. How many times have I dragged my 4228 out of the garage to try it? The first two years or so, almost every job that looked like it might be tough. After that, once in a blue moon when I drag out everything for that Mission Impossible. Where I have I tried it? ALL over western Washington, Yakima area, all around the Portland suburbs, a dozen sites around the Bay area, and up north to Santa Rosa, San Ramon, and more. Only In Santa Rosa, where it was over 60 miles to the towers and flat open almost line of sight terrain did it work better, a little, but not on one station, which just happened to be the one they wanted, so the slightly weaker overall 4248 was used. In Santa Clara/San Jose, a 4248 smoked the 4228 on the Sutro stations, also line of sight, 43 miles, with ch36 and a few close by other stations coming in fine from almost directly behind it!
I'm rambling again, yeah, yeah.
My long and windy point.
There's specs, which help compare, and then there's real world. If one flavor doesn't do it for you, try another. There really, REALLY is a difference between all these antennas, and NONE is right for every place all the time!

Dan
So when people ask for an antenna recommendation what are you suggesting? It sounds like everyone should just plan on buying 3-4 different types and throw each of them up for a test (rather expensive). Or should they just leave the whole thing to an installer (maybe less expensive than 4 antennas)? Either way, not very DIY friendly...

I will continue to support the 4228 not because of gain plots but because dozens of AVS members have had excellent results with it over the last four years that I have monitored the antenna debate. I agree it is not the BEST antenna for EVERY situation but the consensus on the Hardware forum is that it is a good place to start for most situations. Since most people don't have a spectrum analyzer they just want a place to start, with something that has worked for others. For close-in I agree that the 4221 is a better choice just on cost alone.

Originally posted by booziboy
I am in talks with antennasdirect to see if I can get a replacement. I dont want to have a big antenna sticking out of my backside of the house. I like the DB2 as it was small(almost like a dish).

Today morning and yesterday night after doing some more wiring(removing some splitters etc), and looks like now I get even KING, but the signal strength is fluctuating between 55% to 65%. Today it is raining, and I am still gettig some breaks.

Maybe I shall investigate if I can get DB4 or maybe more uni-directional style smaller antenna(I cannot afford to have a 5 feet antenna, will not pass wife's test). Any more suggestions from antennadirect website.

thanks
The problem is "small" and "high performance" are mutually exclusive in antenna designs. Physics is physics. The gain figure for the DB4 is 2.3db higher than the DB2. That MAY be enough to put you over the hump. The DB4 is "their most popular antenna" for what that's worth.

Your choices are to increase size vertically (multiple bowtie designs) or increase the size horizontally with a yagi style like the XG42 which looks to be about 4 feet long based on similar antennas at other sites (can't find any dimensions on their own site).

Hi quarque,

I'm looking to move towards the Crown Hill area, and was hoping you could run a topo plot for the area I'm looking at? It's the corner of 27th Ave NW and NW 83rd Street.

Thanks!

Originally posted by jskiffington
Hi quarque,

I'm looking to move towards the Crown Hill area, and was hoping you could run a topo plot for the area I'm looking at? It's the corner of 27th Ave NW and NW 83rd Street.

Thanks!
Welcome to AVS! That area is actually called Loyal Heights and is on a nice 300-foot plateau that gives you clear access to everything. Just don't put your antenna in the basement and you will be OK. :) You may need to do something about KCPQ in Bremerton since it is about 90 degrees off-axis from the Seattle towers from that area.

I observed something interesting while wiring up my antenna. I was running a RG6 coix cable from my antenna to TV. I wired the cable along with rest of the cables(that exist for my Dish), and some places I would be going perpendicular to the existing wiring. I stapled the wires to the siding of the house like other coix wiring was and came down to watch my HDTV and I see that almost all my channels are gone and my strongest KIRO has dropped from 90+ strength to around 50+.

I go back and take out some the cross overs from existing dish wiring and keep this antenna wire away from dish wiring and I am getting back my better reception.

Is there a relation on how I do the wiring. Should I not be going parallel or perpendicular to existing dish wiring. Is there some interference from other wires.

I am just new to this anteena wiring. If someone can shed some light on this would be great. I know froim my high school physics that waves do cause interefence, but I coax should be well shielded.

Or is possible while I was stapling I punch through the wire and caused some kind of a grounding to the siding of the wall.

Originally posted by rdiotte
The KSTW 68kw DT signal is a circular shaped pattern with all the energy radiating out from the antenna...i.e. there is very little signal to the immediate north, northwest, or northeast...all our signal aperature is aimed at the south, south west, toward tacoma.
Our CP for full power DT is for an 850Kw ERP in a modified peanut shaped pattern matching the lowlands of the Puget Sound area and the counties to the north and south.
UPN is owned by CBS, CBS engineering manages what we put on our digital stream(s). As of this writing the UPN O & O's broadcast a single channel upconverted or native 1080i stream. When UPN network sends us 1080i widescreen, we air it, otherwise you're viewing our analog programming, upconverted and at a 4 x 3 screen ratio. There are discussions at corporate levels for the prospect of multiple streams, but nothing has been decided.
R Diotte
CE, KSTW

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to finally getting Enterprise in HiDef.

Any chance you could post a few photos of the new antenna and transmitter gear?

Originally posted by quarque
Welcome to AVS! That area is actually called Loyal Heights and is on a nice 300-foot plateau that gives you clear access to everything. Just don't put your antenna in the basement and you will be OK. :) You may need to do something about KCPQ in Bremerton since it is about 90 degrees off-axis from the Seattle towers from that area.

Thanks, quarque. I looked at this location on antennaweb.org, and it placed everything in the red, which I found odd.

Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to pick up off-axis stations? As quarque mentioned, rrom my location KCPQ might be difficult. Does this require two antennas and a multiplexer, or a rotator?

Also, does anyone know of any good web sites that talk about how to install an antenna, run the cable, etc? Or just a good installer in the Seattle area.

Thanks!

Skiff

I'am also looking forward to getting UPN in HD, thanks for the update.

A question about the 4228, in my case it seems to be very sensitive to moving it up and down only a few feet. If I move it up a few feet I can get some stations, if I move it back down I can get the others, I have not found a position that it will receive all. Also I'm in a bit of a hole and 25 miles north of Seattle on the west side of Mukilteo. So is it reflections causing this and would a yagi do better? I've tried a small yagi not enough gain, I also tired a squareshooter again also not enough gain.

The KCPQ signal just went blank, right before the Seahawks game started. I called the newsroom and they're aware of it and are working on it. No estimated time was given for a fix and I didn't ask.

Originally posted by booziboy
I observed something interesting while wiring up my antenna. I was running a RG6 coix cable from my antenna to TV. I wired the cable along with rest of the cables(that exist for my Dish), and some places I would be going perpendicular to the existing wiring. I stapled the wires to the siding of the house like other coix wiring was and came down to watch my HDTV and I see that almost all my channels are gone and my strongest KIRO has dropped from 90+ strength to around 50+.

I go back and take out some the cross overs from existing dish wiring and keep this antenna wire away from dish wiring and I am getting back my better reception.

Is there a relation on how I do the wiring. Should I not be going parallel or perpendicular to existing dish wiring. Is there some interference from other wires.

I am just new to this anteena wiring. If someone can shed some light on this would be great. I know froim my high school physics that waves do cause interefence, but I coax should be well shielded.

Or is possible while I was stapling I punch through the wire and caused some kind of a grounding to the siding of the wall.
Sounds very odd. Yes there will be *slight* coupling when running cables in parallel but RG6 should be fairly immune to this. Running cables at right angles eliminates that coupling effect. So whatever you did probably did not have much to do with the routing unless you happen to be paralleling some AC wiring inside the wall. I suspect it was something to do with how you were fastening the cable. Do you have your antenna cable properly grounded where it enters the house? Search the Hardware forum on installation & grounding - there have been many posts on this with links to websites.

Originally posted by drewba
The KCPQ signal just went blank, right before the Seahawks game started. I called the newsroom and they're aware of it and are working on it. No estimated time was given for a fix and I didn't ask.
Yeah. Funny how this happens at the *worst* times! It's back now...

I just got the OTA going have been watching 13-1, signal strength of 92.
All ready for Seahawks in hi def. Bang no picture? Get other stations WB, some PBS, but no 13-1 all of a sudden! Is it just me? or anyone else having this problem too?

Originally posted by derekjsmith
I'am also looking forward to getting UPN in HD, thanks for the update.

A question about the 4228, in my case it seems to be very sensitive to moving it up and down only a few feet. If I move it up a few feet I can get some stations, if I move it back down I can get the others, I have not found a position that it will receive all. Also I'm in a bit of a hole and 25 miles north of Seattle on the west side of Mukilteo. So is it reflections causing this and would a yagi do better? I've tried a small yagi not enough gain, I also tired a squareshooter again also not enough gain.
This does sound like the typical multipath problem. Have you tried moving the antenna horizontally to a new location? As far as which antenna will do better it is impossible to tell without actually putting them up and trying it.

Whew! Picture is back! Time too watch the game don't no why the blank screen but will deal with that later.;)

Originally posted by jskiffington
Thanks, quarque. I looked at this location on antennaweb.org, and it placed everything in the red, which I found odd.

Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to pick up off-axis stations? As quarque mentioned, rrom my location KCPQ might be difficult. Does this require two antennas and a multiplexer, or a rotator?

Also, does anyone know of any good web sites that talk about how to install an antenna, run the cable, etc? Or just a good installer in the Seattle area.

Thanks!

Skiff
The first thing to do when you move in is to put up a CM 4221 and see how things look. Since KCPQ is so high up and at good power you might luck out and get it with your antenna pointed at Queen Anne. If that does not work you have a few choices. A rotor is one - the drawbacks are having to aim the antenna each time and controlling it for recording. The next option is an A-B switch with a second antenna - again, a pain. The next option is a simple diplexer with a second antenna. The problem with these setups is cross-coupling between the antennas at similar frequencies. Receivers do not like multiple signals for the same station. The usual fix is to use a product like the JoinTenna by Channel Master. It is designed to pass one channel on one antenna and reject that same channel on the other. AVS users have found that this does not always work as advertised because the tuning of the filters is not precise and they are not narrow enough to pick out a single station. A few people in our area have used them for KCPQ with about a 75% success rate. It takes some "fooling around" sometimes. Warren Electronics carries them.

Installation is covered pretty well on the Hardware Forum. I recall some links and advice there on just about every aspect. Here is a guide at solidsignal: http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Well I got my 4228 up aprox 22 feet off the ground. I have it pointed about due north or a tad east of north. The signal strengths are as follows
13-1 @ 88
4-1 @ 10-16
5-1 @ 18-22
7-1 @ 10-14
KTBU @ 60
WB @ 60
The only ones that show up on the TV are 13-1 and WB and KTBU.
Do I need to go higher or do I need to get some sort of signal booster to bring the signal strengths up? I can get the signal strength of 13-1 way up in to the 90's by pointing more west but lose all signals from the other channels. By pointing more easterly I start gaining signal strength on the other channels but start losing on 13-1. Any sugestions?

radtek - so this is now your second 4228 (in a stack)? I think your NNE aim is OK you should go for max signal on 4,5,7 and ignore 13. If you are running a stacked array you need to have the connecting cables *exactly* the same length where they join up. Even a half inch difference can reduce the effectiveness of the stack. A preamp may be worth trying. Extra height can't hurt but may not help that much unless you know there are things in the way. Also play with the spacing between the 2 antennas. You might want to post over on the Hardware forum about correct spacing. What receiver are you using?

Originally posted by pastiche
I've actually liked KSTW's power as-is. :D No signal overload as on KCTS-DT and KTWB-DT! (I'm only about 7 blocks northwest of the Captiol Hill antenna farm.)

On a related note... KSTW-TV's always thrown a lot of first adjacent channel interference into (an adequately strong, otherwise) KVOS-TV for me. Right now, I get zilch on KVOS-DT since they're on a lower power STA, but was wondering, if once KSTW-DT and KVOS-DT are at full power, ought I expect KSTW-DT 36 to obliterate KVOS-DT 35 as happens on analogue? Or are digital signals differently behaved?

pastiche
Digital, unlike analog, can be side by side, as is the case with KOMO 38 and KIRO 39. No problem. Where you get into trouble is if one is very strong and the other weak. Most tuners I've seen have an automatic gain for the preamp built in that tries to equalize the incoming signal levels first. It's not like an antenna preamp with a huge amount of gain, and it works across the entire UHF band. It's called RF AGC on most sets, including TV's. What it will do is take the hottest signal and reduce it's gain as much as it can to prevent overloading the tuner. What that means is if one channel is very hot, and all the others are weak, it will drive the gain down, making the weak ones unusable. If you can reduce the one channel, then it will allow the others to be amplified more, usually increasing it's sensitivity and helping selectivity. Also, you get away from amplifying the harmonics of the hot channel, which is just adding more noise to the problem. This is easy to fix in the VHF band, where parts are cheaper, and the frequencies are obviously lower. Trying to knock down 36 so you can see 35 is going to be tough. Filters that can work at those levels are very costly to make. I bet with a cut for 35 yagi, say ten element, you will still have at least 30db to deal with, if not more like 40+db from ch36. The Join-Tenna is only good for about 7-10db of loss on a tuned frequency, and it's about 2 or more channels wide either side of that! That's why it works fair for ch18, because the next higher is ch25 and the next lower is ch16 KONG analog, which most people aren't concerned about. If you're close to the towers, though, with hot signals, the Join-Tenna is pretty useless. You could use a separate hookup for 35, with several traps together and some cable length between them to keep them from interfering with each other. Trying to mix it as one down lead will be very tough. It's possible to do, just be prepared for a real challenge with a lot of patience!
Dan

Originally posted by rdiotte
The KSTW 68kw DT signal is a circular shaped pattern with all the energy radiating out from the antenna...i.e. there is very little signal to the immediate north, northwest, or northeast...all our signal aperature is aimed at the south, south west, toward tacoma.
Our CP for full power DT is for an 850Kw ERP in a modified peanut shaped pattern matching the lowlands of the Puget Sound area and the counties to the north and south.
UPN is owned by CBS, CBS engineering manages what we put on our digital stream(s). As of this writing the UPN O & O's broadcast a single channel upconverted or native 1080i stream. When UPN network sends us 1080i widescreen, we air it, otherwise you're viewing our analog programming, upconverted and at a 4 x 3 screen ratio. There are discussions at corporate levels for the prospect of multiple streams, but nothing has been decided.
R Diotte
CE, KSTW

rdiotte
Thanks, looking forward to the power increase. You'll make a lot of viewers very happy, and my job easier! If it's not too much trouble, could you drop us a post when it's all tweaked up to max?
Thanks again
Dan

Originally posted by jskiffington
Thanks, quarque. I looked at this location on antennaweb.org, and it placed everything in the red, which I found odd.

Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to pick up off-axis stations? As quarque mentioned, rrom my location KCPQ might be difficult. Does this require two antennas and a multiplexer, or a rotator?

Also, does anyone know of any good web sites that talk about how to install an antenna, run the cable, etc? Or just a good installer in the Seattle area.

Thanks!

Skiff

jskiffington
This is the ideal spot for a 4221. I use these all the time in the greater Ballard area. 13 is no problem from there. Aim the antenna so the backplane (the metal grid part) is parallel with 83rd street, which makes the antenna pointing basically due south and you should be fine. If channels 9-11-22 give any problems, turn the antenna slightly so it points more towards Queen Anne. Use an adjustable attenuator from RatShack set to max to start with. Mount it at the back of the receiver. I usually end up needing at least 10db of attenuation there. Try to be mindfull of any trees or your neighbors chimney, etc, when you choose a mounting spot. It doesn't need to be up high, just enough to clear some of the roof tops.
Dan

Originally posted by derekjsmith
I'am also looking forward to getting UPN in HD, thanks for the update.

A question about the 4228, in my case it seems to be very sensitive to moving it up and down only a few feet. If I move it up a few feet I can get some stations, if I move it back down I can get the others, I have not found a position that it will receive all. Also I'm in a bit of a hole and 25 miles north of Seattle on the west side of Mukilteo. So is it reflections causing this and would a yagi do better? I've tried a small yagi not enough gain, I also tired a squareshooter again also not enough gain.

derekjsmith
It's not reflections or multipath, but trees, and lots of them, that are blocking the signal. Think of being in a forest of tall fir trees, where the lower half of the trunks have no limbs, and it's a sunny day. Those shafts of sunlight that break through are like the signal. Now imagine six or more Suns, or sources for the sunlight that are fairly close together in the sky. What you're trying to do is find a spot where you can see them all. Or, at least most of the rays from each one. As quarque mentioned, try moving the antenna to different locations. You might want to try a 7775 preamp, too. Signal strength drops off fast in the woods. When I do installs up there, the 4248 or a similar long yagi works better for me.
The 4228 is like two 4221's stacked side by side. When you're try to thread your way through the trees, there's the possibility of getting a mismatch of gain effect, where the left side may pick up more signal than the right half or vice versa. The gain will drop some, but what's worse is the signal is not even in level across the whole 6mhz wide channel. This causes the decoder to get confused, and they can get touchy as you've found out. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it can be a real challenge. Patience is the key.
Pringles in Everett has parts if you need them.
Dan

Originally posted by radtek
Well I got my 4228 up aprox 22 feet off the ground. I have it pointed about due north or a tad east of north. The signal strengths are as follows
13-1 @ 88
4-1 @ 10-16
5-1 @ 18-22
7-1 @ 10-14
KTBU @ 60
WB @ 60
The only ones that show up on the TV are 13-1 and WB and KTBU.
Do I need to go higher or do I need to get some sort of signal booster to bring the signal strengths up? I can get the signal strength of 13-1 way up in to the 90's by pointing more west but lose all signals from the other channels. By pointing more easterly I start gaining signal strength on the other channels but start losing on 13-1. Any sugestions?

radtek
DEFINITELY use a preamp, like the 7775. Do that before you go any further. It will make a big difference! Then start to play with spacing and position.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
radtek - so this is now your second 4228 (in a stack)? I think your NNE aim is OK you should go for max signal on 4,5,7 and ignore 13. If you are running a stacked array you need to have the connecting cables *exactly* the same length where they join up. Even a half inch difference can reduce the effectiveness of the stack. A preamp may be worth trying. Extra height can't hurt but may not help that much unless you know there are things in the way. Also play with the spacing between the 2 antennas. You might want to post over on the Hardware forum about correct spacing. What receiver are you using?

Quarque, no I only have one 4228. And I need 13 so ! can see my Seachickens !!!! lose in Hi Def!!!!:mad: But! I would like to be able to get the others too. One thing I have not done is shorten the cable length from antenna to DirecTV Hi DEF Tivo, All I had was a 100 length with ends attached . Did not have any new ends so used the entire 100 Feet until i can shorten. Would this help? I figured with a dig signal it would not matter as much as analog. I may be wrong on that. Also considering a preamp.

Originally posted by quarque
The first thing to do when you move in is to put up a CM 4221 and see how things look. Since KCPQ is so high up and at good power you might luck out and get it with your antenna pointed at Queen Anne. If that does not work you have a few choices. A rotor is one - the drawbacks are having to aim the antenna each time and controlling it for recording. The next option is an A-B switch with a second antenna - again, a pain. The next option is a simple diplexer with a second antenna. The problem with these setups is cross-coupling between the antennas at similar frequencies. Receivers do not like multiple signals for the same station. The usual fix is to use a product like the JoinTenna by Channel Master. It is designed to pass one channel on one antenna and reject that same channel on the other. AVS users have found that this does not always work as advertised because the tuning of the filters is not precise and they are not narrow enough to pick out a single station. A few people in our area have used them for KCPQ with about a 75% success rate. It takes some "fooling around" sometimes. Warren Electronics carries them.

Installation is covered pretty well on the Hardware Forum. I recall some links and advice there on just about every aspect. Here is a guide at solidsignal: http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

quarque
I agree.
A small point. What I think you meant to say, about coupling two antennas together, is some people use a splitter. As you said, it's not elegant and doesn't work very well. If you use a diplexer, which couples satellite (900-2200mhz) signals and UHF/VHF signals (870-40mhz), the antenna connected to the satellite port would not work very well as it would be trapped out.
For those that want to try coupling antennas together, thought we should give them a fair start!
Dan
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
quarque
I agree.
A small point. What I think you meant to say, about coupling two antennas together, is some people use a splitter. As you said, it's not elegant and doesn't work very well. If you use a diplexer, which couples satellite (900-2200mhz) signals and UHF/VHF signals (870-40mhz), the antenna connected to the satellite port would not work very well as it would be trapped out.
For those that want to try coupling antennas together, thought we should give them a fair start!
Dan
Dan
My bad. I had diplexers on the brain all day working with a friend on his sat setup back east with about 20 emails back and forth.

radtek - I meant that ignoring 13 would be OK because you will probably get plenty of signal at any direction. Yes, we all want to watch the SeaChokers lose in HD. I was getting scared today (during the first half) that they were not our old familiar team and aliens had replaced them with a team of androids. I mean, 4-0 for the first time, get real... but our old team came through in the second half. Anyway, do the preamp and max out 4,5,7 levels.

Originally posted by quarque
My bad. I had diplexers on the brain all day working with a friend on his sat setup back east with about 20 emails back and forth.

radtek - I meant that ignoring 13 would be OK because you will probably get plenty of signal at any direction. Yes, we all want to watch the SeaChokers lose in HD. I was getting scared today (during the first half) that they were not our old familiar team and aliens had replaced them with a team of androids. I mean, 4-0 for the first time, get real... but our old team came through in the second half. Anyway, do the preamp and max out 4,5,7 levels.

Quarque, I just ordered a preamp as Dan sugested a 7775 from Solid Signal. Would the length of my still long cable be hindering the signal also?
I will be shortening but its back to the grindstone manyana so ... next weekend. What's the lowest signal level you can have before the picture stops? I will crank that thing farther east see what happens.

Yes, My beloved Seachockers with their surehanded receivers fell through their sack again. I must of had a premonition because I took the Rams in the pool at work :D

radtek - yes cable length matters. Every foot degrades the signal so shorter is better. If you can cut it to 50 feet or less you may pick up some measurable signal. The lowest level signal varies from receiver to receiver. On my Sammy T150 I have a series of 16 bars and most of my stations are around 8 bars. But when I first hooked it up with an indoor antenna I was only getting 2 bars and the receiver still locked on reliably. Some units however require 40% on their levels. These displays are not calibrated to the same standard and some work differently than others in the way they measure the signal. So you will have to judge "minimal level" based on what you see.

Originally posted by quarque
So when people ask for an antenna recommendation what are you suggesting? It sounds like everyone should just plan on buying 3-4 different types and throw each of them up for a test (rather expensive). Or should they just leave the whole thing to an installer (maybe less expensive than 4 antennas)? Either way, not very DIY friendly...

I will continue to support the 4228 not because of gain plots but because dozens of AVS members have had excellent results with it over the last four years that I have monitored the antenna debate. I agree it is not the BEST antenna for EVERY situation but the consensus on the Hardware forum is that it is a good place to start for most situations. Since most people don't have a spectrum analyzer they just want a place to start, with something that has worked for others. For close-in I agree that the 4221 is a better choice just on cost alone.

quarque
What I was trying to say, specially for the DIY people, is that while many people have tried the 4228 and had success, they could've done better with the 4248 in those really tough locations. With the way HD decoders work, you never how good a signal you really have, just that it works. We know about the receivers "signal strength" indicators not really telling the true reception story, and once it locks in steady on the channels, why go any further with the project?
If the majority of people on the Forum use a particular flavor antenna, and they're happy, great. Yes, the 4228 is a good place to start for those out there in the 10-20 mile range and more, and if the Topo says it plots fairly easy. If they are looking at a lot of trees, hills, distance or all in the way, then the 4248 is what I would normally start with, and 2nd, a preamp.
I was hoping to explain in words what I see with the analyzer that they can't, what I learned from experience in the field and why I chose what I did so they could get a good start at the project. Then maybe they'll be able to keep more hair than I have!

One of these days we should hookup and I'll show you what your antenna looks like on an analyzer, and we'll swap crazy antenna stories!
Dan

I have been following the antenna stories here on the forum. As mentioned in my previous posts, I have a DB2 from antennasdirect, and I am able to pull most of the channels. I still have some breaks with KCPQ(get about 55% signal strength on my dish reciever).

I would like to try the antenna's mentioned in this forum, like the 4228 or 4248. Any local store where I can buy one. I hate buying something over the interenet and then returning it(shipping is too painful)

Also need a pre-amp, so any local store I can pickup the 7775 from? Suggestions.

booziboy - Fry's in Renton carries some Channel Master stuff but you have to dig for it. 4221 (equal to the DB4) is cheaper and might be all you need.

Originally posted by DanKurts
jskiffington
This is the ideal spot for a 4221. I use these all the time in the greater Ballard area. 13 is no problem from there. Aim the antenna so the backplane (the metal grid part) is parallel with 83rd street, which makes the antenna pointing basically due south and you should be fine. If channels 9-11-22 give any problems, turn the antenna slightly so it points more towards Queen Anne. Use an adjustable attenuator from RatShack set to max to start with. Mount it at the back of the receiver. I usually end up needing at least 10db of attenuation there. Try to be mindfull of any trees or your neighbors chimney, etc, when you choose a mounting spot. It doesn't need to be up high, just enough to clear some of the roof tops.
Dan

Thanks Dan (and quarque) for all your help. I'm planning on moving towards the beginning of November, so I'll let you all know how it goes!

Hi, I am new to this forum. Anyone in this forum have luck with OTA HD in Redmond Ridge area?
Mr. Quarque or anyone else that has topography software provide me some indications of what chances I have of getting OTA in this location: 9827 223rd Pl NE, Redmond, WA 98053. Just trying to learn from the experts before I embark on a trial and error path with different antennas.

Thanks a lot.

Originally posted by eliza04
Hi, I am new to this forum. Anyone in this forum have luck with OTA HD in Redmond Ridge area?
Mr. Quarque or anyone else that has topography software provide me some indications of what chances I have of getting OTA in this location: 9827 223rd Pl NE, Redmond, WA 98053. Just trying to learn from the experts before I embark on a trial and error path with different antennas.

Thanks a lot.
Welcome to AVS! You've come to the right place. First things first. Like Spock, it's just Quarque, no Mr. please! :D

I'm having trouble locating your exact location because my map shows a large open area where your house should be. It may not matter since that whole area is at 500+ feet elevation and you have a clear shot at all the towers. You are only 16 miles out so a Channel Master 4221 would do nicely. What sort of mounting/location are you trying for? Indoor might be a little tough but could be done.

Originally posted by DanKurts
One of these days we should hookup and I'll show you what your antenna looks like on an analyzer, and we'll swap crazy antenna stories!
Dan
Sounds like fun. My first crazy story is using a 5-foot piece of bare wire as my first antenna. I got the receiver one night on impulse at BB (sale) and had no UHF antenna handy so I poked a piece of 18 ga. steel wire into the back of the Sammy T150 and pulled in 5 stations immediately!

I don't want anyone to freak out...

but I've traded my 4228 with a friend who had a 4221 with marginal reception. He is 34 miles out and needs the gain. I'm only 6 miles from QA and don't need it. I put up the 4221 today and there is almost no difference on my signal level readout (who knows what it is actually indicating). He put up the 4228 and as of a half hour ago he has all the locals at about 60%-90% except KSTW at 20%. I think being NNE on a high hill has its advantages (besides the view).

Originally posted by eliza04
Hi, I am new to this forum. Anyone in this forum have luck with OTA HD in Redmond Ridge area?
Mr. Quarque or anyone else that has topography software provide me some indications of what chances I have of getting OTA in this location: 9827 223rd Pl NE, Redmond, WA 98053. Just trying to learn from the experts before I embark on a trial and error path with different antennas.

Thanks a lot.

eliza04
If I'm not mistaken, that's the new huge development of homes with a planned shopping center, etc.....
Did one up there. Signal levels are pretty good, but you do need to find the sweet spot between the trees if you're on the west side near trees or greenbelt. They can chop up the signal. One of the bad things about being high in elavation is the signal comes in at lower level relative to the horizon. Start with the 4221 if you're 300-500ft away from the trees in a clearing, looking SW. If not, the 4248 will most likely be needed. You may need a preamp, too. Most channels will come in, but 5-11-16 are weak, and you may not have enough by the time you get to the receiver. If so, use a 7775. You can get Channel Master parts at Pringles in Everett, 1-800-468-3033, if Fry's doesn't have them.
Dan

Quarque
I still haven't given up on OTA, but I do have another question: at my location, will I be aiming the antenna up or down with relation to the horizon? (My address again is 9140 W. Belfair Valley Rd., Bremerton, 98312, and I'm at approx. 47.5248 lat. & -122.7694 long.) Thanks again for answering all my questions. BTW, I did give in & got cable for the locals in HD....drat!!!

Is KING and KONG on the same tower and same power. How come I get KONG with almost 75% signal strength and KING I just dont even register on my Dish HD reciever. I get almost all the other locals( KOMO, KIRO, PBS, FOX). Anything special I have do or is it that KING just is at low power.

Few questions
Where is the best place for buying indoor antennas around here - one that understands you may have to return and try other models. I live in bothell and work in bellevue. Someone mentioned Fry's - anywhere else? Does Fry's have the silver sensor that a lot of people like (and its a pretty decent looking antenna too)

And should that (indoor) not work - what is a ballpark figure of cost (parts and labor) of having someone come out and install an external one? Any recommendations just in case?

Hopefully I won't need an external antenna as I think I am in a good location (14211 90th Ave NE Bothell 98011) and my wife is very "anti-antenna" but, as I brought up another thread, I have aluminum siding (anyone have experience with aluminum siding?)

Thanks so much

My dad called Pringle's in Everett to ask about their return policy and they said they have no return policy; you buy it, you own it. Also, not to bash these guys, but they are selling the CM 4228 for $85, which I believe is nearly $20 over MSRP and about $35 more than the internet merchant that sold me mine (their shipping, by the way is about $10 compared to $7 in tax when you buy local at Pringle's).

Originally posted by felthove
My dad called Pringle's in Everett to ask about their return policy and they said they have no return policy; you buy it, you own it. Also, not to bash these guys, but they are selling the CM 4228 for $85, which I believe is nearly $20 over MSRP and about $35 more than the internet merchant that sold me mine (their shipping, by the way is about $10 compared to $7 in tax when you buy local at Pringle's).

If your looking for a 4228 go to Fry's in Renton. They have it and and they sell it for less than MSRP, don't want to post the price since AVS only allows MSRP posts.

If you go to Fry's go to the electronics section to the right when you walk in, and ask someone for help. They store them in the back, they are not on the floor with the other CM gear.

Do you know whether or not Fry's sells any CM pre-amps?

Originally posted by felthove
Do you know whether or not Fry's sells any CM pre-amps?

I don't know, sorry.

Originally posted by Baldone01
Quarque
I still haven't given up on OTA, but I do have another question: at my location, will I be aiming the antenna up or down with relation to the horizon? (My address again is 9140 W. Belfair Valley Rd., Bremerton, 98312, and I'm at approx. 47.5248 lat. & -122.7694 long.) Thanks again for answering all my questions. BTW, I did give in & got cable for the locals in HD....drat!!!
That would be "up", about 10 degrees. But you are still looking through a large ridge and any signal you get will be a reflection and not reliable. I want someone to try my helium balloon idea - are you up for it?

Originally posted by booziboy
Is KING and KONG on the same tower and same power. How come I get KONG with almost 75% signal strength and KING I just dont even register on my Dish HD reciever. I get almost all the other locals( KOMO, KIRO, PBS, FOX). Anything special I have do or is it that KING just is at low power.
I repeat:
"The radiation pattern for KING is peanut shaped - directing most of the signal north and south. The DB2 (double bowtie) is not a very high gain unit and so you may need a better antenna."

You might also be getting a strong reflection on KING that is killling it. That might require relocating your antenna for a better sweet spot.

Originally posted by chrhon
Few questions
Where is the best place for buying indoor antennas around here - one that understands you may have to return and try other models. I live in bothell and work in bellevue. Someone mentioned Fry's - anywhere else? Does Fry's have the silver sensor that a lot of people like (and its a pretty decent looking antenna too)

And should that (indoor) not work - what is a ballpark figure of cost (parts and labor) of having someone come out and install an external one? Any recommendations just in case?

Hopefully I won't need an external antenna as I think I am in a good location (14211 90th Ave NE Bothell 98011) and my wife is very "anti-antenna" but, as I brought up another thread, I have aluminum siding (anyone have experience with aluminum siding?)

Thanks so much
Sears carries the Silver Sensor and has a decent return policy (at least on most things). For outside, you can throw up a CM 4221 on just about anything (some just tack it on the wall). Sears website says:

" Zenith HDTV or TV Antenna, Silver Sensor™ Indoor Antenna, HDTV-UHF Digital Sears item #05768514000 Mfr. model #ZHDTVI $39.99 "

At this point, I'd try my own satellite, if I thought I could afford it & it would work.

Well, since SpaceShipOne was a total success you might be able to have them throw up a sat on their next trip. :D But seriously, I think the helium balloon on piano wire has promise and it's cheap!

Originally posted by DanKurts
Digital, unlike analog, can be side by side, as is the case with KOMO 38 and KIRO 39. No problem. Where you get into trouble is if one is very strong and the other weak.

Dan,

Wow, thanks so much for all that information! It's all a little more than I'd try for one channel, but I never understood the theory behind it all before! :)

Quarque
If you're serious about the helium idea, how would you maintain a stationary position; especially in wind? If you've got a viable idea, I'd be willing to give it a try. TTYL.

Baldone01 - well "serious" is a relative term. I do know that my recveiver picked up 5 stations with just a 5-foot piece of wire before I got a "real" antenna. I figure that the balloon on a piece of wire would work the same way (no orientation required!). The top end to the wire will get some signal. The question is will it be enough signal for your receiver and will there be too much interference from phase lag down the wire. If you will get the balloon & wire I will bring my receiver out for a test (unless you have an OTA receiver already). We really need one of the new 5th generation LG receivers for this experiment. To stabilize it for wind you add 3 insulated guy wires at the balloon and stake them off at 120 deg. intervals. Obviuosly the balloon needs to be one of those "serious" balloons you get for weather experiments etc. Edmund Scientific used to sell them.

Imagine the sky filled with balloons... hmmm, what will the FAA say? Better stay below 200 feet and reel it in during thunder storms!

I'm a new to this forum, and was trying to find information on OTA availability in the Maple Valley area. I saw one post from last year for a location a couple of miles from my house, and was wondering if someone (quarque?) could check LOS from the corner of SE 248th St and SE 247th Pl (the actual mailing address is in Ravensdale, 98051).

Also, I've been to the antennaweb.org site to get their feedback on the type of antenna I would need, and they recommend a large directional with pre-amp. Given this and the fact that I've got a stand of trees (+150' high) a hundred feet or so from my house in the direction of Queen Anne, do I stand much of a chance of getting OTA?

Thanks for any information anyone can provide.

Now is basic line of sight required or not? I figure it it was hardly anyone would have reception (expect those with some good views). Around me everyone has 2 story homes and trees etc - but its pretty much like most places outside of the actual city of Seattle or bellevue.. not exactly a forest but people have trees in their yards and there are green belts between myself and the tower (I am near the top of a hill - slightly on what would be the back side of the hill from the towers perspective). Basically no direct line of sight.

Originally posted by chrhon
Now is basic line of sight required or not? I figure it it was hardly anyone would have reception (expect those with some good views). Around me everyone has 2 story homes and trees etc - but its pretty much like most places outside of the actual city of Seattle or bellevue.. not exactly a forest but people have trees in their yards and there are green belts between myself and the tower (I am near the top of a hill - slightly on what would be the back side of the hill from the towers perspective). Basically no direct line of sight.
Yes, line-of-sight is required for UHF. There can be some refraction of signal as it passes over hills so the "shadow" is not as hard-edged as it may look. Your location DOES have a direct path to the transmitter even though it may not look like it. Remember, they're 1000-1500 feet above sea level so the signal is coming *down* to your 400 foot elevation. If you took a survey of all Puget Sound residents you would find a lot are behind a hill and can't get OTA.

So where exactly are these transmitters? The ones on top of queen anne don't seem that high. So hills are the big bad enemy around here not all the lovely green trees and neighbor's houses?

Dang... can't wait to get my t151 (finally shipped today.. don't know when it will get here) and give it a try :)

Originally posted by wirelessguy
I'm a new to this forum, and was trying to find information on OTA availability in the Maple Valley area. I saw one post from last year for a location a couple of miles from my house, and was wondering if someone (quarque?) could check LOS from the corner of SE 248th St and SE 247th Pl (the actual mailing address is in Ravensdale, 98051).

Also, I've been to the antennaweb.org site to get their feedback on the type of antenna I would need, and they recommend a large directional with pre-amp. Given this and the fact that I've got a stand of trees (+150' high) a hundred feet or so from my house in the direction of Queen Anne, do I stand much of a chance of getting OTA?

Thanks for any information anyone can provide.
You have some hills to the NW that just barely block line of sight. So to even have a chance you need to get your antenna up pretty high (about 35 feet or more). This can be done with a mast on a 2-story house. the trees will definitley have an impact. It is impossible to judge that impact without putting up an antenna and seeing how much signal gets through. You will want a high gain antenna like the 4248 or 4228 and a preamp to give you all the possible advantages. You may want to hire an installer to do a site survey.

Originally posted by chrhon
So where exactly are these transmitters? The ones on top of queen anne don't seem that high. So hills are the big bad enemy around here not all the lovely green trees and neighbor's houses?

All the DT transmitters in this area are 1000-2000 feet above sea level, regardless of how high they look. Hills are the big enemy because radio waves can't go through hills. Trees are usually not dense enough to completely block a signal. Houses are not usually a problem unless your antenna is very low to the ground. Attic and roof mounts don't usually have any problem with nearby houses. Since most locations are 600-1000 feet *below* the transmitters the signal is coming down at the antenna, not horizontally. In many areas the angle of incidence is 5-15 degrees requiring the antenna to be aimed upward to get maximum benefit. Once you get beyond 10 miles it falls off to less than 2 degrees and is not significant. People on the Hardware forum have talked about precision tilters for years because in some situations angling the antenna makes all the difference in reception.

Originally posted by quarque
.... You may want to hire an installer to do a site survey.

Thanks, quarque. I have a multi-story house, so I may have a shot at getting the antenna high enough. Any suggestions on good installers/site surveyors in the south end?

Originally posted by wirelessguy
I'm a new to this forum, and was trying to find information on OTA availability in the Maple Valley area. I saw one post from last year for a location a couple of miles from my house, and was wondering if someone (quarque?) could check LOS from the corner of SE 248th St and SE 247th Pl (the actual mailing address is in Ravensdale, 98051).

Also, I've been to the antennaweb.org site to get their feedback on the type of antenna I would need, and they recommend a large directional with pre-amp. Given this and the fact that I've got a stand of trees (+150' high) a hundred feet or so from my house in the direction of Queen Anne, do I stand much of a chance of getting OTA?

Thanks for any information anyone can provide.

wirelessguy
You're in a tough spot. Cedar mountain is right in your way, and it has some tall trees on it. It puts the signal line-of-sight way over your head, more than quarque realizes. I would bet that it's about 825-850ft to get over the trees on it, putting the signal more like 200ft above you. There's also a half mile of terrain NW of you that I'm sure has lots of trees on it, too. Add in the 150ft trees near you and it looks bleak. I have done many surveys out there in the greater Covington/Black Diamond area and, unless they were above the tree tops, it was very spotty. Again, never say never, but what ever you use, it's going to need to be for all the marbles, like a 4248 and 7775 preamp, mounted as high as you can get away with.
Dan

Originally posted by booziboy
Is KING and KONG on the same tower and same power. How come I get KONG with almost 75% signal strength and KING I just dont even register on my Dish HD reciever. I get almost all the other locals( KOMO, KIRO, PBS, FOX). Anything special I have do or is it that KING just is at low power.

booziboy
Usually the most common causes are that you're near due east of Queen Anne, where KING has a low power output because of their pattern of transmission, you have an antenna that has poor gain at 674-680mhz, you have something in the way that's blocking signal or reflecting in a manner that's in that range, or any/all the above. KONG does come from the same tower, and is actually much lower in power than KING, but it's frequency is 572-578mhz. That's enough to make a big difference.
Dan

Originally posted by chrhon
Now is basic line of sight required or not? I figure it it was hardly anyone would have reception (expect those with some good views). Around me everyone has 2 story homes and trees etc - but its pretty much like most places outside of the actual city of Seattle or bellevue.. not exactly a forest but people have trees in their yards and there are green belts between myself and the tower (I am near the top of a hill - slightly on what would be the back side of the hill from the towers perspective). Basically no direct line of sight.

chrhon
As quarque said, hills are the biggest problem around here. You are only 9 miles from the towers, and in a great spot. Unless there's just a solid wall of trees for 100yds or more to the SW, it shouldn't be a problem for reception. By solid wall of trees, I mean similar to the heavy wooded areas, where even on a sunny day, when you look into them, it's dark and you can't see more than 100ft or so. As far as aluminum siding, it will definitely kill signal signal. Also, roofs, houses and trees can block signals as bad as a hill or concrete wall. The Seattle towers actual transmitting elements are all about 975ft to 925ft above sea level, with ch13 FOX at 2274ft, but located SW of Bremerton and 29 miles from you. Any small to medium outdoor UHF antenna would probably work fine from where you are, but should be outside. It could be mounted on the side of the house, or even hung from beneath a deck, if it can see towards the SW. The angle the signal comes is a little above the horizon, but isn't that critical unless you're really close, say a mile away or less. I've tried tilting, and in theory it should help, but unless you're really close to a hill, it makes no practical difference that I've found. Where you mount it will, obviously. You can try Rat Shack, too, as they will accept returns, and have some inexpensive antennas you could try. The best one for the job, not counting the the wifes opinion, would be the 4221.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
Baldone01 - well "serious" is a relative term. I do know that my recveiver picked up 5 stations with just a 5-foot piece of wire before I got a "real" antenna. I figure that the balloon on a piece of wire would work the same way (no orientation required!). The top end to the wire will get some signal. The question is will it be enough signal for your receiver and will there be too much interference from phase lag down the wire. If you will get the balloon & wire I will bring my receiver out for a test (unless you have an OTA receiver already). We really need one of the new 5th generation LG receivers for this experiment. To stabilize it for wind you add 3 insulated guy wires at the balloon and stake them off at 120 deg. intervals. Obviuosly the balloon needs to be one of those "serious" balloons you get for weather experiments etc. Edmund Scientific used to sell them.

Imagine the sky filled with balloons... hmmm, what will the FAA say? Better stay below 200 feet and reel it in during thunder storms!

Guys
I had one customer located south of downtown Snohomish, right near the base of the hill at Rees Corner, which has about 650ft of hill to get over. He ran a construction site, and had access to a crane on a construction job he was at. He put an antenna on it, with preamp, ran it up 400ft, got most of the stations! Now if you could just get a long term construction permit.....
or, how about doing a study of Eagles nesting habits on 200ft trees, and making a "mock" tree to test your theory? Hey, what if you got a grant and they paid for it !! The mind boggles.... ( I know, it's late, go to bed....)
Dan

Quarque
Any idea how long a weather balloon could be expected to stay aloft? I did locate some balloons on the Edmund Scientific site. They have diameters of 3, 6 & 16 feet. They state that they can be filled with helium or a vacuum cleaner. Hard to believe that a balloon filled with a vacuum cleaner could stay aloft very long, but... BTW, they are made of neoprene. Here's the link if you're curious: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3041755&bhcd2=1097765780. TTYL.

I live on the very west side of Woodinville. I use a 80" boom antenna from radio shack mounted on my roof. All the standard stations come in great on my new USR HD tuner. I can't get a good signal from Fox though. The best I could get was about 40 - 50% signal strength. This results in reasonable video, but no audio. I need Fox so I can watch the Seahawks games in HD.

My guess is that an amplifier would help with this. If the folks on here agree with that assessment, can someone recommend a good amp that's not particularly expensive?

Thanks!

Larry,

I am planning on moving to 141st Street and 177th Ave NE in Redmond. What is my chance there? I hope I do not have to give it all up. Anyone want to buy a house with exceptional DTV reception in Lynnwood?

Thanks,
Tuquet

Originally posted by DanKurts
booziboy
Usually the most common causes are that you're near due east of Queen Anne, where KING has a low power output because of their pattern of transmission, you have an antenna that has poor gain at 674-680mhz, you have something in the way that's blocking signal or reflecting in a manner that's in that range, or any/all the above. KONG does come from the same tower, and is actually much lower in power than KING, but it's frequency is 572-578mhz. That's enough to make a big difference.
Dan

Since I have the DB2 antenna from antennasdirect, is there something I can do to make sure that I can better gain at that frequency from 674-680 Mhz. I am looking for something not very big(something in the range of DB2 would be great). I tried even the Yagi style antenna from Radio Shack and still dont get anything better.

I just need another 10% increase in signal strength to make it over the hump. anyone with ideas ...

my immediate need of getting FOX and CBS is satisfied(football is why I need HD)

Originally posted by Baldone01
Quarque
Any idea how long a weather balloon could be expected to stay aloft? I did locate some balloons on the Edmund Scientific site. They have diameters of 3, 6 & 16 feet. They state that they can be filled with helium or a vacuum cleaner. Hard to believe that a balloon filled with a vacuum cleaner could stay aloft very long, but... BTW, they are made of neoprene. Here's the link if you're curious: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3041755&bhcd2=1097765780. TTYL.
Vacuum cleaner! Oh, the blower end. LOL! I guess the hot air would do something for a little while. I looked at the ES page and even the 16' balloon can only pull 2.42 lbs. You would need some pretty high-tech wire to not weigh it down. I also wonder about the helium leaking out - neoprene is not totally gas tight as I recall. Ah, forget I ever brought it up...

Originally posted by DanKurts
Guys
I had one customer located south of downtown Snohomish, right near the base of the hill at Rees Corner, which has about 650ft of hill to get over. He ran a construction site, and had access to a crane on a construction job he was at. He put an antenna on it, with preamp, ran it up 400ft, got most of the stations! Now if you could just get a long term construction permit.....
or, how about doing a study of Eagles nesting habits on 200ft trees, and making a "mock" tree to test your theory? Hey, what if you got a grant and they paid for it !! The mind boggles.... ( I know, it's late, go to bed....)
Dan
Great ideas Dan. I wonder what the rental fee is on a crane...

That reminds me. Does anyone think there will ever be UHF-DT repeaters like they do for analog UHF? That would help a lot of people.

Originally posted by tuquet
Larry,

I am planning on moving to 141st Street and 177th Ave NE in Redmond. What is my chance there? I hope I do not have to give it all up. Anyone want to buy a house with exceptional DTV reception in Lynnwood?

Thanks,
Tuquet
Tuquet my old friend, you are in luck. That area is at about 450 feet and there is nothing in your way.

Originally posted by quarque
Tuquet my old friend, you are in luck. That area is at about 450 feet and there is nothing in your way. You have just made my day, a lot of thanks.

Originally posted by e_priest
I live on the very west side of Woodinville. I use a 80" boom antenna from radio shack mounted on my roof. All the standard stations come in great on my new USR HD tuner. I can't get a good signal from Fox though. The best I could get was about 40 - 50% signal strength. This results in reasonable video, but no audio. I need Fox so I can watch the Seahawks games in HD.

My guess is that an amplifier would help with this. If the folks on here agree with that assessment, can someone recommend a good amp that's not particularly expensive?

Thanks!
CM7775 is about $50 at solidsignal.com. It's either that or move your antenna. Hard to say which is the cure. You make the call...

How much of that 80" is dedicated to UHF? Maybe you need a better UHF-only antenna since all our dgitials are UHF.

Just chiming in on the subject of OTA in Maple Valley... Well, and I have a question...

I've got a directional on a 10ft mast (atop a 2-story house) with a signal amp on SE 270th & 220th in Maple Valley (Cherokee Bay), and I get enough signal that the pcHDTV card in my MythTV box will happily tune ABC, CBS, PBS, KONG and WB every time, but the signal for KING and FOX is a tad low (occasionally can't lock on).

When the antenna wasn't enough, I just ran to the local RadioShack (I know, I know) and picked up one of their signal amps. However, I see the ChannelMaster Titan 7775 as the recommended signal amp most places. Am I likely to see a significant improvement in signal with one of these over the RadioShack one that it would be worth replacing it? (As in, am I likely to see enough improvement in signal strength for KING and FOX that I can always lock on to them).

Hi Larry...

I've seen all the help you've given people and I'm hoping you're not tired of it yet. :)

I live near Poulsbo (Kitsap County). The intersection is Old Military Road and Sunday Valley Lane. I'm not sure if your map/program goes out that far, but if it does, can you tell me my chances of OTA HD reception?

Thanks!!!

Paul

Originally posted by pecocus
I live near Poulsbo (Kitsap County). The intersection is Old Military Road and Sunday Valley Lane. I'm not sure if your map/program goes out that far, but if it does, can you tell me my chances of OTA HD reception?


Just go to antennaweb.org and find out for yourself. :-)

Originally posted by jarodwilson
Just chiming in on the subject of OTA in Maple Valley... Well, and I have a question...

I've got a directional on a 10ft mast (atop a 2-story house) with a signal amp on SE 270th & 220th in Maple Valley (Cherokee Bay), and I get enough signal that the pcHDTV card in my MythTV box will happily tune ABC, CBS, PBS, KONG and WB every time, but the signal for KING and FOX is a tad low (occasionally can't lock on).

When the antenna wasn't enough, I just ran to the local RadioShack (I know, I know) and picked up one of their signal amps. However, I see the ChannelMaster Titan 7775 as the recommended signal amp most places. Am I likely to see a significant improvement in signal with one of these over the RadioShack one that it would be worth replacing it? (As in, am I likely to see enough improvement in signal strength for KING and FOX that I can always lock on to them).
I compared your location to wirelessguy and you are much further south. Your line of sight completely misses Cedar Mountain, which explains your ability to pull in most stations. As far as making changes the first question is what antenna do you have? It is usually better to upgrade your antenna first and then try a preamp. A preamp amplifies noise as much as signal and to get a better s/n ratio you may need a better antenna.

Originally posted by pecocus
Hi Larry...

I've seen all the help you've given people and I'm hoping you're not tired of it yet. :)

I live near Poulsbo (Kitsap County). The intersection is Old Military Road and Sunday Valley Lane. I'm not sure if your map/program goes out that far, but if it does, can you tell me my chances of OTA HD reception?

Thanks!!!

Paul
god I'm tired... just kidding.
You are in a good location with no hills in the way of Seattle towers. BTW I can map anywhere in the US but I limit my service to Puget Sound. Otherwise I'd have to give up my day job. :) (Just for fun: you would need a 14,000 foot tower to get Chicago, not to mention the largest antenna ever made.)

antennaweb.org does give useful information but their database knows nothing about hills - it may say you have such and such station at xxx degrees but the reality is often quite different!

Thank a lot!!!

Now go to bed if you're tired! :)

Paul

Originally posted by quarque
Great ideas Dan. I wonder what the rental fee is on a crane...

That reminds me. Does anyone think there will ever be UHF-DT repeaters like they do for analog UHF? That would help a lot of people.

quarque
I don't thnk DT repeaters are going to happen. It's hard enough to get licenses for anything RF. Then there's the bazillion hills around here to give trouble for reception. KIRO has a bunch of repeaters for analog, and it still doesn't cover all the bases. Imagine how many there would have to be for the other 7 major stations. Now imagine how much more it's going to cost for HD repeaters than analog. Then throw in the bean counters that look at the other side of the sheet and say," Wonder what we can sell our product for to the Cable and Satellite people? No major outlay of hardware, we still keep our existing systems, and we gain audience and money..... Repeaters? Why??!!"

I don't think I'm going to invest in repeater manufacturing companys just yet....
Dan

yeah, that is what I was thinking too - just thought someone might see a reason they would switch over the analog repeaters to digital when the big "switch" happens.

I'm looking for some feedback from people watching HDTV programming on KSTW either OTA or cable. I've been watching Veronica Mars and Enterprise on KSTW in high-def and while the picture is excellent I'm not receiving stereo audio. I am using an Accessdtv card as my tuner. Perhaps the stereo audio is on some sort of sub-channel I can't tune? So if some other people could confirm that they are getting something other than mono sound on KSTW's Hi-Def programming it would help me figure out if the problem is my equipment, or me :) For what its worth I receive stereo sound on other local stations and I have two Accessdtv cards and both get mono sound on KSTW's
Hi-Def programs.


Thank you...

I haven't watched much KSTW and don't pay attention to who has what audio format, but are those programs in Dolby Digital 5.1 and your hardware is not handling DD 5.1 properly? My tuner and audio system switches automatically to handle all formats so I never pay much attention to it.

Originally posted by quarque
Great ideas Dan. I wonder what the rental fee is on a crane...

That reminds me. Does anyone think there will ever be UHF-DT repeaters like they do for analog UHF? That would help a lot of people.

KSL in Salt Lake City (which has, by far, the largest translator network of any US station) did some experiments to pass ATSC signals via translator a few years ago. I'm not sure what, if anything, every became of those experiments.

I've also heard of a few other stations feeding their NTSC translators from their ATSC transmitters, which is an interesting arrangement.

I have not seen any threads regarding reception of Fox in North Kitsap. We have a nice view of Seattle from my location (indianola) and get all the channels from there just fine. No Fox= No SeaHawks/ Post season Baseball in HD. 22-2 shows Fox/Football &Baseball but does not broadcast it (they show 22-1 content). ? #2 Where is 89(FOW/W) being sent to?Any ideas? Thank you in advance!! PS- I am on DTV.

Originally posted by baymar
I have not seen any threads regarding reception of Fox in North Kitsap. We have a nice view of Seattle from my location (indianola) and get all the channels from there just fine. No Fox= No SeaHawks/ Post season Baseball in HD. 22-2 shows Fox/Football &Baseball but does not broadcast it (they show 22-1 content). ? #2 Where is 89(FOW/W) being sent to?Any ideas? Thank you in advance!! PS- I am on DTV.
FOX on KCPQ is only broadcast from Bremerton now. The old cross-carriage between 13 & 22 is no more. There is only 13-1 and 22-1 now. 22-1 coming from Capitol Hill. You may need to point your antenna SW to pick up 13 (instead of SE). Unless you are behind a hill it should come in fine. I'm not sure what 89 FOW/W is.

Specifically, Fox broadcasts from the top of Gold Mountain, near Bremerton.

What's the best attic sized antenna (mid-size antenna) for KOMO, KING and KIRO's digital channels only? Right now I have a UHF/VHF antenna in the attic and multipath during windy conditions is driving me nuts. I'm hoping it will improve when the leaves drop, but I'd like to get something a bit more specialized.

Edit: With a bit more research, what I'm asking is am I likely to be better off with a yagi style as opposed to one of those flat square UHF antennas that look like one side of an animal cage. I'm in South Seattle on top of a hill, with almost line of sight to the stations, and KCPQ is about 90 degrees off. I get KCPQ fine with my VHF/UHF yagi even though it's 90 degrees off.

Originally posted by Mr Radley
I'm looking for some feedback from people watching HDTV programming on KSTW either OTA or cable. I've been watching Veronica Mars and Enterprise on KSTW in high-def and while the picture is excellent I'm not receiving stereo audio. I am using an Accessdtv card as my tuner. Perhaps the stereo audio is on some sort of sub-channel I can't tune? So if some other people could confirm that they are getting something other than mono sound on KSTW's Hi-Def programming it would help me figure out if the problem is my equipment, or me :) For what its worth I receive stereo sound on other local stations and I have two Accessdtv cards and both get mono sound on KSTW's
Hi-Def programs.


Thank you... I think KSTW audio is DD 2.0, it is 2 channel stereo, not mono, nor 5.1. I also do not watch much KSTW but did watch some HD movies (presented by Zenith) and they may have had DD5.1. I think it is just how the program was encoded. What boggles me is KCPQ, broadcasting 720p and sometimes switching to 480p during commercials.

Originally posted by quarque
I compared your location to wirelessguy and you are much further south. Your line of sight completely misses Cedar Mountain, which explains your ability to pull in most stations. As far as making changes the first question is what antenna do you have? It is usually better to upgrade your antenna first and then try a preamp. A preamp amplifies noise as much as signal and to get a better s/n ratio you may need a better antenna.

The antenna is a pretty large (12ft?) directional yagi boom. Not sure exactly on the specs anymore, it was some generic one that I found locally and was rated as being able to pick up purple channels on antennaweb. However, some discussion on the MythTV mailing lists regarding the driver for my capture card (pcHDTV HD-2000) led me to look at the LEDs on the back of the card, and I found that both KING and FOX actually *ARE* locking on to the signal, but the signal strength reported was too low for MythTV to find acceptable. I went ahead and manually edited my Myth config database to allow lower values, and now KING and FOX tune in fine (though yesterday's weather caused some fun artifacts during the baseball games). I think I'll just leave well enough alone for now...

Originally posted by quarque
FOX on KCPQ is only broadcast from Bremerton now. The old cross-carriage between 13 & 22 is no more. There is only 13-1 and 22-1 now. 22-1 coming from Capitol Hill. You may need to point your antenna SW to pick up 13 (instead of SE). Unless you are behind a hill it should come in fine. I'm not sure what 89 FOW/W is.

Hrm... I believe I'm picking up FOX/KCPQ in Maple Valley on 18-1...

I have a lot of land between me and Bremerton. If I could even get 13 I think I would have to add a second antenna and stick it on a pole (not feasible in my hood). FYI - 89/FOXW is the DTV FOX West channel. I think it goes to LA or something. Sounds like I have to wait till the next bird goes up.

Originally posted by jarodwilson
Hrm... I believe I'm picking up FOX/KCPQ in Maple Valley on 18-1...
Depending on your receiver you may see 13-1 or 18-1. 18 is the digital channel which is being mapped by the receiver to the analog channel for the station (because most people would recognize the analog channel better than the newer digital channel number).

Originally posted by baymar
I have a lot of land between me and Bremerton. If I could even get 13 I think I would have to add a second antenna and stick it on a pole (not feasible in my hood). FYI - 89/FOXW is the DTV FOX West channel. I think it goes to LA or something. Sounds like I have to wait till the next bird goes up.
13 is very high up and at good power so you should be able to get it easily. Have you ever tried rotating your antenna? A due south orientation might pick up everything.

Originally posted by Karyk
What's the best attic sized antenna (mid-size antenna) for KOMO, KING and KIRO's digital channels only? Right now I have a UHF/VHF antenna in the attic and multipath during windy conditions is driving me nuts. I'm hoping it will improve when the leaves drop, but I'd like to get something a bit more specialized.

Edit: With a bit more research, what I'm asking is am I likely to be better off with a yagi style as opposed to one of those flat square UHF antennas that look like one side of an animal cage. I'm in South Seattle on top of a hill, with almost line of sight to the stations, and KCPQ is about 90 degrees off. I get KCPQ fine with my VHF/UHF yagi even though it's 90 degrees off.
Hard to say which design is better without trying both. I'd go with a CM 4221.

Originally posted by tuquet
I think KSTW audio is DD 2.0, it is 2 channel stereo, not mono, nor 5.1. I also do not watch much KSTW but did watch some HD movies (presented by Zenith) and they may have had DD5.1. I think it is just how the program was encoded. What boggles me is KCPQ, broadcasting 720p and sometimes switching to 480p during commercials.

I appreciate the reply. I am receiving 5.1 on KCPQ, KOMO and KIRO. My receiver automatically switches to Pro-Logic II on sources that are not 5.1 such as on Enterprise. I do get stereo on some of KSTW's programming just not, it seems, on their network sourced stuff. I E-mailed the station and got a reply that they would look into it, but that's as far as it got. I wish I could get this sorted out, its really frustrating watching Enterprise with mono sound...

KCPQ's 480p commercials during baseball have been showing in a smaller box in the upper left corner of my screen. I thought it was just my Accessdtv card on that one, good to know its not just me :)

Originally posted by quarque
Hard to say which design is better without trying both. I'd go with a CM 4221.

Right on, quarque. The interference he's getting in the wind, though, is not multipath, it's tree branches partially blocking the main signal. Leaves aren't going to make a difference when you're that strong on signal. If he mounts it outside, all the channels would probably be fine, even FOX, if aimed sort of NW.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
FOX on KCPQ is only broadcast from Bremerton now. The old cross-carriage between 13 & 22 is no more. There is only 13-1 and 22-1 now. 22-1 coming from Capitol Hill. You may need to point your antenna SW to pick up 13 (instead of SE). Unless you are behind a hill it should come in fine. I'm not sure what 89 FOW/W is.

Did a survey on President point road last week, and was very surprised to find 13 was pretty ugly. Level wasn't bad, just that the signal waveshape on the analyzer was really chopped up by the trees. And there wasn't what I would call a lot of trees around. I would've expected a pretty hot signal, but got less than the Seattle channels going through the same amount of trees. 13 does have a directional pattern, but still has plenty of power to the northeast...... Go figure.
Oh, I also tried the square shooter there, too, and it wasn't very good. 4248 worked best of 4 types I tried. Only found one channel at one location where the square shooter did better than other types. But, it doesn't take much space in the van, so I'll keep trying it a while longer.
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Right on, quarque. The interference he's getting in the wind, though, is not multipath, it's tree branches partially blocking the main signal. Leaves aren't going to make a difference when you're that strong on signal. If he mounts it outside, all the channels would probably be fine, even FOX, if aimed sort of NW.
Dan

I'm sorry, I thought the leaves caused multipath (I envisioned the wet maple leaves relecting the signal). Maybe it's leaves further away than what I thought, for the ones close by are not line of sight to the transmitter. I am sort of on a ridge, so trees way down the road could be the ones causing the problem.

Talking the wife into an outside antenna might be tough--we already have two sat. dishes. And it would all probably just be temporary anyway since once Comcast adds KIRO I'll probably record most everything off of Comcast via my Fusion card. Right now I have a combo UHF/VHF antenna (the VU 90 XR I beleive, from Radio Shack) and I was hoping a dedicated UHF would do the trick since I don't need VHF at all.

Would physically disabling the VHF portion of that antenna do anything at all to improve it's UHF performance? (Or does that portion of the antenna help pull in KCPQ even though it's aimed almost 90 degrees off for that channel?)

Also, does anyone know the height of the CM 4248 (the spread at the wide point of the V)? They apparently envision mounting that outside so I haven't seen a site give that spec.

Originally posted by Mr Radley
I appreciate the reply. I am receiving 5.1 on KCPQ, KOMO and KIRO. My receiver automatically switches to Pro-Logic II on sources that are not 5.1 such as on Enterprise. I do get stereo on some of KSTW's programming just not, it seems, on their network sourced stuff. I E-mailed the station and got a reply that they would look into it, but that's as far as it got. I wish I could get this sorted out, its really frustrating watching Enterprise with mono sound...

KCPQ's 480p commercials during baseball have been showing in a smaller box in the upper left corner of my screen. I thought it was just my Accessdtv card on that one, good to know its not just me :)
There were a lot of problems with DD 5.1 when it first started and not all of them were due to the station. But if you are getting 5.1 on other stuff then I would suspect some compatibility issue with your tuner. Do they offer any software/firmware updates for it? That is what I had to do to my Sammy T150 to get KOMO DD to work properly in all flavors.

Originally posted by Karyk
Would physically disabling the VHF portion of that antenna do anything at all to improve it's UHF performance? (Or does that portion of the antenna help pull in KCPQ even though it's aimed almost 90 degrees off for that channel?)

Also, does anyone know the height of the CM 4248 (the spread at the wide point of the V)? They apparently envision mounting that outside so I haven't seen a site give that spec.
No, disabling the VHF portion will not affect the UHF section - they are independent of each other. I'm guessing the height of the 4248 is about 2 feet, tip to tip. Dan can run out to his truck and measure one for us!

I am just checking back in to tell anyone in the Yelm area there is HD, OTA !
I put the CM 4228 up and only got 13-1. Saturday I climbed up on the roof in a driving, windy, rain storm, and with fogged over Bifocals managed to connect a 7775 pre amp and bingo! I get all the HD/Dig. channels I wanted 4-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 13-1 and 22-1. I had a lot of break up and picture freezing Saturday, weather?, but now it has settled in and is working good. I still need to go up and tweak the antenna direction a bit more easterly, but that is another weekend job. Wife wonders if I will ever get done tweaking my Home Theater....I don't think I can :D

Originally posted by radtek
I still need to go up and tweak the antenna direction a bit more easterly, but that is another weekend job. Wife wonders if I will ever get done tweaking my Home Theater....I don't think I can :D

Are you going to wait for another weekend with really bad weather, or just go with the first weekend available? :D

If you're like me you'll end the tweaking when you get everything working right. MyHD has new beta software, and ATI has new drivers, but I haven't tried either because my software is working and the new features of each are not something I really need. When I first got setup, there were glitches that made trying new software much more appealing.

Originally posted by quarque
No, disabling the VHF portion will not affect the UHF section - they are independent of each other.

I was just thinking one might interfere with the other--sort of like how two antenna setups can be troublesome. Obviously the two sections would be orientated the exact same direction, and they are designed to work together, so the issues would be different. I just thought one by itself might be better.

Thank you for your estimate on height.

Originally posted by radtek
I am just checking back in to tell anyone in the Yelm area there is HD, OTA !
I put the CM 4228 up and only got 13-1. Saturday I climbed up on the roof in a driving, windy, rain storm, and with fogged over Bifocals managed to connect a 7775 pre amp and bingo! I get all the HD/Dig. channels I wanted 4-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 13-1 and 22-1. I had a lot of break up and picture freezing Saturday, weather?, but now it has settled in and is working good. I still need to go up and tweak the antenna direction a bit more easterly, but that is another weekend job. Wife wonders if I will ever get done tweaking my Home Theater....I don't think I can :D

I guess I spoke too soon! Got up this am Sky is blue no clouds to speak of. I thought wow should get some good reception now ......nope lost all my channels except 13-1. Did the signal strength test and the other channels are very low again. Could the thick cloud cover actually help the reception? A bounce effect such as AM radio does? Has anyone else experienced this?:confused:

First post here but I have been readig for a while ;)
I got my first HDTV (Samsung TX-P3071WH) ready yesterday and I am discovering this all HD thing.

I got an antenna, a Trek (I know read it's not a good one), and I am able to pick up 4 HD stations. WB, TBN, and 2 KCTS. One of the KCTS is 16:9 and I am just amazed at the quality sent OTA....

I live at the bottom of Queen Anne neer the Seattle Center. I am wondering if I will need multiple antennas to get all of the HD stations or if getting a better one will help at all? I live on the first floor of an apt building. The one I get now are crystal clear.

Thanks!

Concerning DTV translators........
The Utah experiments have gone well. The FCC just released the new rules for LPTV and translator digital TV. Stations can now start building them.

Kent Parsons and his guys have shown that DTV translators work well, and can be operated on channels adjacent to the analog transmitters. They can even use the same amplifiers. And, many analog translators can easily be switched over to DTV.

Thank you Ken for the update. Hope you don't mind but I copied your post to the thread in the Hardware Forum that I had started on this topic. It did not get much of a response. Most people think there is no monetary reason to invest in DT repeaters. We'll see...

Originally posted by wilfried
First post here but I have been readig for a while ;)
I got my first HDTV (Samsung TX-P3071WH) ready yesterday and I am discovering this all HD thing.

I got an antenna, a Trek (I know read it's not a good one), and I am able to pick up 4 HD stations. WB, TBN, and 2 KCTS. One of the KCTS is 16:9 and I am just amazed at the quality sent OTA....

I live at the bottom of Queen Anne neer the Seattle Center. I am wondering if I will need multiple antennas to get all of the HD stations or if getting a better one will help at all? I live on the first floor of an apt building. The one I get now are crystal clear.

Thanks!
Welcome to AVS! You are in a sticky wicket. You might want to hire an installer to evaluate your location since it might take several antennas and weeks of trial and error to figurre out what you've got signal-wise. Send a PM to AVS member DanKurts. This may be a good place for the SquareShooter!

Looking for some more advice... We're looking at getting a high-def capture card for the computer in our lounge at work to go with our projector. The machine it would go in runs Windows XP, and I've been looking at the WinTV-HD, ATi HD Wonder and meaning to look at one of Dvico's cards. Any recommendations on the best card for the job?

Also, we're thinking we'll need an antenna better than whatever comes w/the card (if anything). We're on the 32nd floor of the Westin Building (downtown, 6th and Virginia), looking straight out at Queen Anne. Any suggestions for antenna? I presume we won't need much.

Originally posted by jarodwilson
Looking for some more advice... We're looking at getting a high-def capture card for the computer in our lounge at work to go with our projector. The machine it would go in runs Windows XP, and I've been looking at the WinTV-HD, ATi HD Wonder and meaning to look at one of Dvico's cards. Any recommendations on the best card for the job?

Also, we're thinking we'll need an antenna better than whatever comes w/the card (if anything). We're on the 32nd floor of the Westin Building (downtown, 6th and Virginia), looking straight out at Queen Anne. Any suggestions for antenna? I presume we won't need much.
Pop on over to the Home Theater Computers forum and see what they say about tuner cards. I've never used one. As for antennas you might try the Winegard SquareShooter. It is designed for close-in locations like yours and it is small. I doubt any tuner cards come with an antenna.

Originally posted by quarque
No, disabling the VHF portion will not affect the UHF section - they are independent of each other. I'm guessing the height of the 4248 is about 2 feet, tip to tip. Dan can run out to his truck and measure one for us!

quarque
It's 36"

Karyk
I think you're going the wrong direction with the 4248.
It's far too narrow for what you're trying to do. If you want to try something, hack off the VHF portion of the Rat Shack. Make sure the rods carrying signal between the two sections are removed, but not the connections to the UHF "loop" or bow tie where the balun ataches. Then take that little guy outside, point it towards Queen Anne, give or take, and see what happens. You may have to swing it a bit one side or the other more than you think will work, but try it. The short yagi can get pretty good reception on the side when there's enough clean signal to work with. You don't have to have it mounted high. You can hang it on the side of the house, even from under an eave (just keep it a few feet below the eave so signal can come in better). Just be sure it has a clear view to Bremerton.
Dan

Originally posted by baymar
I have not seen any threads regarding reception of Fox in North Kitsap. We have a nice view of Seattle from my location (indianola) and get all the channels from there just fine. No Fox= No SeaHawks/ Post season Baseball in HD. 22-2 shows Fox/Football &Baseball but does not broadcast it (they show 22-1 content). ? #2 Where is 89(FOW/W) being sent to?Any ideas? Thank you in advance!! PS- I am on DTV.

I live in Indianola at the top of Nachant Dr. I can get FOX (18-1) beautifully when I aim my antenna towards the S-SW even from inside my attic (I'm a good 180 feet above sea level), but of course lose it when I point towards the Seattle sticks. If you're down on the Indianola Spit I'd think you still would have decent luck if you point your antenna towards Bremerton/Gorst, but the trees above Suquamish might give you trouble...

-Mike

Originally posted by radtek
I guess I spoke too soon! Got up this am Sky is blue no clouds to speak of. I thought wow should get some good reception now ......nope lost all my channels except 13-1. Did the signal strength test and the other channels are very low again. Could the thick cloud cover actually help the reception? A bounce effect such as AM radio does? Has anyone else experienced this?:confused:

Radtek
Most likely you have not sealed it well enough for rain.
If the leads going into the amp don't have a drip loop, and the fittings aren't sealed, they get wet and can eventually short out the power. If you leave it that way long enough, the power supply will fry. If it's minor, dry it out, unplug the power supply, let it cool down and it might come back to life. Also, the balun needs sealing. If not, the way the balun mounts on a 4228, water will short one out quickly.
You might have a staple through the cable, too. Not bad enough to affect signal, but could let the cable get wet inside.
Dan

Originally posted by wilfried
First post here but I have been readig for a while ;)
I got my first HDTV (Samsung TX-P3071WH) ready yesterday and I am discovering this all HD thing.

I got an antenna, a Trek (I know read it's not a good one), and I am able to pick up 4 HD stations. WB, TBN, and 2 KCTS. One of the KCTS is 16:9 and I am just amazed at the quality sent OTA....

I live at the bottom of Queen Anne neer the Seattle Center. I am wondering if I will need multiple antennas to get all of the HD stations or if getting a better one will help at all? I live on the first floor of an apt building. The one I get now are crystal clear.

Thanks!

Wilfried
ANY channel you can get in HD is going to be crystal clear.
The problem is you have at LEAST three different directions.
I recently tried over on 5th and Aloha, where the view was north and west. ugly. And worse. On the first floor, you most likely have no windows on the north side. And if you did, you would still really need to have the antenna right against the glass to get any hope of a signal. Next, being in an apartment building means you can't do much with external antennas. The location MUST have some externals to really work at all. And then you have the fun of sorting out signals being way over your head, standing waves rolling down the towers and hill to you, signals bouncing off the buildings, dog and your chrome coffee cups, and on and on ad nauseum !!
Gazillions of years ago, before cable, we had to try and sort all this out. Can be done in the VHF range some what easily, but takes lots of hardware. UHF is a real pain. You can try the usual suspects (various "magic" indoor antennas) but it's not going to be very successful.
If I lived there, cable would be the way to go.
Dan

DanKurts,

Thanks! In fact I am right by 5th and Aloha... I guess I get the one from Cap hill. I know it's either I get it crystal clear or nothing but I am just amazed ;) better than DVD over the air....

Anyway I guess I am gonna have Comcast come to set up HDTV. I was trying to avoid the headache to set up Tivo with it.... I understand Tivo won't record in HDTV but will it record the 16:9 format? Is there a serial port to change channel?

;)

I need some advice in improvimg my reception...

I live on 124th west of I405 in the Totem Lake area (Kirkland).

What I have now: HDTV Wonder, which comes with an antenna that looks like a Silver Sensor. I get 5 or 6 out of 6 bars for about eight channels, all other are either marginal or no reception.

Reception is OK indoors but there's a lot of stuttering.

I placed the antenna on the balcony with a 30ft high quality cable. This works, but I get good reception for 10 seconds, then the signal drops completely, then it comes back after a few seconds, and so forth.
I have no real way of telling if the stuttering is due to signal drop outs or a software problem in my HTPC, but since it drops out completely with a longer cable, I speculate it's signal drop-outs)

I live in a multi story apartment building, on top floor facing south. The antenna is pointed South-West (where antennaweb indicates most stations are located). There are some trees to the south and a wooded ridge maybe 1/3 of a mile south. I could place an antenna on a tripod on the balcony, but not on the roof.

So I don't think I have line of sight to the Seattle or Bellevue stations, but when it working it looks pretty seductive :) The question I guess is, is this what people describe as a multi path problem? Will a better antenna (like the Channel Master 4228) help me, or do I simply need an amplifier?

Thanks
Martin

Originally posted by jarodwilson
Looking for some more advice... We're looking at getting a high-def capture card for the computer in our lounge at work to go with our projector. The machine it would go in runs Windows XP, and I've been looking at the WinTV-HD, ATi HD Wonder and meaning to look at

This is the thread in the computer forum that discusses the basic cards (perhaps less the ATI unless it's been updated).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207262

I have the MyHD and the Fusion card. The Fusion card has the advantage of being able to deal with Comcast's QAM encoding of the local HD signals, but requires a much more powerful computer than the MyHD card, which has it's own video processor. The advantage of the MyHD card is it's easy to set up, because you don't have to try to go through your video card. So assuming your projector can deal with standard HD resolutions, that would be a very easy setup. Another hardware based card that's worth looking at is the Access card, which can pause and then fast forward a live broadcast like a Tivo (and I believe that does come with some sort of antenna).

Oh, and I've not heard anything good about the ATI product.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Karyk
I think you're going the wrong direction with the 4248.
It's far too narrow for what you're trying to do. If you want to try something, hack off the VHF portion of the Rat Shack. Make sure the rods carrying signal between the two sections are removed, but not the connections to the UHF "loop" or bow tie where the balun ataches. Then take that little guy outside, point it towards Queen Anne, give or take, and see what happens. You may have to swing it a bit one side or the other more than you think will work, but try it. The short yagi can get pretty good reception on the side when there's enough clean signal to work with. You don't have to have it mounted high. You can hang it on the side of the house, even from under an eave (just keep it a few feet below the eave so signal can come in better). Just be sure it has a clear view to Bremerton.
Dan

Thanks. For your exterior experiment I might just buy this $23.99 job from Radio Shack, which I believe is basically the same as the UHF section of my existing antenna.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

If it works it would probably look better than modifying the existing antenna (in the attic it doesn't matter what it looks like), and if it doesn't work I'll still have my existing antenna (and actually, if it does work, I could still use the existing antenna on my MyHD card which has two inputs and allows you to specify which input to use for each channel).

MartinK... I live near you but up on finn hill. What you describe is exactly what I was going through last night. I have the silver sensor. I'd go from 2/3 signal strength for a few minutes and then zero.. and I am using a samsung tuner box so I doubt its your card. Not sure what is going on. I went to Frys today becuase someone said they have the channel master 4221 but frys didn't have it.

I've combed through this and haven't bumped into any reports from West Seattle. I'm moving to 8600 17th Avenue SW (98106). Any ideas on what I'll be facing?

Originally posted by chrhon
I went to Frys today becuase someone said they have the channel master 4221 but frys didn't have it.

BTW, the Fry's in Renton has the Channel Master antennas in a different area than other antennas. They are near the front on the way to the hard drive area on the right wall (back side of the first row if I recall correctly). They have other antennas in the far left back end of the store, but nothing worthwhile. I don't know whether they carry the 4221, however.

An Over The Air success story!

I have read just about every post in this thread so far so I thought I’d share my story. First off here is my location: Lat 47.315207, Lon –121.896120 (10 miles North of Enumclaw in Palmer). That’s 30 miles from QA and CH and about 45 from Gold Mt. This is a heavily wooded area with hills all around. Those antenna experts on here would probably just laugh and say I had no chance getting a digital signal here. I figured I’d give it a try since the analog channels are not too bad with a pre amp and good antenna, but there is a good amount of ghosting on some of the channels.

I started researching tuners. The LG LST-4200A seems to be the best at the moment so that is what I got. I had a Radio Shack monster UHF only antenna sitting around, I believe it is the U120R or something, about 10 feet long. Threw that up on the roof and only got the channels from Tiger Mt. Got signal on all the others, but the meter would jump to about 50 percent and then back to about 10 percent and never show a picture. The antenna is pointing right into a thick group of Fir, Alder and Hemlock trees. Time for plan B.

Found a perfect Cedar tree on the edge of a cliff down to the river that would be perfect. It is a good 130 feet tall and sitting on the edge of a bank that was another 75 feet from the river. Strung a rope up the tree and secured some rope off points, harnessed up and started climbing. I took the antenna without the corner reflectors on and nailed it to the side of a tree about 50 feet up. Strung 250 feet of RG-6 coax down and over to the house and plugged it into the tuner. This time all the channels except Fox were solid, amazing! This was only temporary to see if putting it up the tree would help before I got a better antenna.

Next I picked up and Channel Master 4228 and used the same Winegard AP-8283 pre amp I was using before. Found a permanent location on the tree about 2/3 the way up, like 80 feet or so. Mounted the antenna directly to the tree with a bunch of screws and it was secure and aimed it at about 275*. Trimmed a few surrounding branches and hooked up the coax. 3 hours later I am pleased to report I get all the main channels and their corresponding sub channels. 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 9-1, 11-1, 13-1, 16-1, 20-1, 22-1, 33-1, 45-1, 51-1 and sometimes 28-1. The signal strength on the tuner is about 40-50% for all these channels. It needs about 35% to lock onto channels that’s about to the first “t” on “STRENGTH” text above the yellow signal bar. The other channels range from the “r” to the last “t”

A few notes and questions for the experts out there:

Has anyone else tried the LG LST-4200A tuner? I think this thing is by far and away the most sensitive and powerful tuner out there. It picked up some analog channels from Bellingham and Vancouver neither of my TVs could and the antenna wasn’t even pointing in that direction. (CH 12 and 15)

I know I have a lot of loss from the 300 feet of coax cable. From 19-23dB for RG6 for the length I am running. For RG-11 I think I calculated between 9.8 and 12dB for the same length. So would it be to my advantage to upgrade the coax to RG-11 from the antenna to the outside of the house (about 220 feet)? And where can I get this stuff? Is there anyplace local? I found a couple places online but they had like 500 and 1000 foot spools. And it is pricey in that length.

I did notice during the winds of a couple days ago (40-50 mph gusts) the signal would drop out for a second or two every once in a while. I assume this might be from the tops of trees in front of the antenna, there is also a huge stand of crazy tall Cottonwoods several hundred yards in front of the antenna.

Well that is all for now, sorry for the length but the end result has been totally worth it, picture quality is amazing.:D

Originally posted by BigBrownBoy
I've combed through this and haven't bumped into any reports from West Seattle. I'm moving to 8600 17th Avenue SW (98106). Any ideas on what I'll be facing?
Topographically speaking you are in a good location - about 400 feet with no major hills in the way. A CM 4221 should do well and might even pick up ch 13 while still pointed due north.

McFly9000 - wow and congrats! You are in a small elite club of tree climbers on AVS. You can read about the 4200A over on the Hardware forum. All the LG stuff gets pretty high marks. I think you made a good choice. The RG-11 would make a difference if you really do gain 10+ dB. I'm not sure who carries it locally but there are a number of cable/wire suppliers in the area. We use Anixter where I work - try the yellow pages. Oh, and welcome to AVS forum - enjoyed your story.

Originally posted by MartinK
I need some advice in improvimg my reception...

I live on 124th west of I405 in the Totem Lake area (Kirkland).

What I have now: HDTV Wonder, which comes with an antenna that looks like a Silver Sensor. I get 5 or 6 out of 6 bars for about eight channels, all other are either marginal or no reception.

Reception is OK indoors but there's a lot of stuttering.

I placed the antenna on the balcony with a 30ft high quality cable. This works, but I get good reception for 10 seconds, then the signal drops completely, then it comes back after a few seconds, and so forth.
I have no real way of telling if the stuttering is due to signal drop outs or a software problem in my HTPC, but since it drops out completely with a longer cable, I speculate it's signal drop-outs)

I live in a multi story apartment building, on top floor facing south. The antenna is pointed South-West (where antennaweb indicates most stations are located). There are some trees to the south and a wooded ridge maybe 1/3 of a mile south. I could place an antenna on a tripod on the balcony, but not on the roof.

So I don't think I have line of sight to the Seattle or Bellevue stations, but when it working it looks pretty seductive :) The question I guess is, is this what people describe as a multi path problem? Will a better antenna (like the Channel Master 4228) help me, or do I simply need an amplifier?

Thanks
Martin
Depending on what part of 124th you are on you may be fighting a large hill to the W - SW. If you care to post your nearest cross street I can check it, Your symptoms sound like multipath but could also be marginal signal because of the hill and trees. A better antenna may help but the real solution may be more HEIGHT. If you can't get height you may be SOL.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Radtek
Most likely you have not sealed it well enough for rain.
If the leads going into the amp don't have a drip loop, and the fittings aren't sealed, they get wet and can eventually short out the power. If you leave it that way long enough, the power supply will fry. If it's minor, dry it out, unplug the power supply, let it cool down and it might come back to life. Also, the balun needs sealing. If not, the way the balun mounts on a 4228, water will short one out quickly.
You might have a staple through the cable, too. Not bad enough to affect signal, but could let the cable get wet inside.
Dan

I'm afraid it is fried. I do have a drip loop on the cable from the antenna to the amp. It is just a straight run from the amp out . I do have the rubber covers that came with the unit installed , should I seal them also with silicone? I have a new unit on its way. I assumed the power supply went out as it stays cool as a cucumber when plugged in. And even I know there has to be some heat generated. And what may I ask is the balun? is this what you attach the wires from the antenna to the cable to? Silicone that also? New 7775 will be here in time for another weekend roof top adventure. Would like to get it right this time. :D

Originally posted by MartinK
I need some advice in improvimg my reception...

I live on 124th west of I405 in the Totem Lake area (Kirkland).

What I have now: HDTV Wonder, which comes with an antenna that looks like a Silver Sensor. I get 5 or 6 out of 6 bars for about eight channels, all other are either marginal or no reception.

Reception is OK indoors but there's a lot of stuttering.

I placed the antenna on the balcony with a 30ft high quality cable. This works, but I get good reception for 10 seconds, then the signal drops completely, then it comes back after a few seconds, and so forth.
I have no real way of telling if the stuttering is due to signal drop outs or a software problem in my HTPC, but since it drops out completely with a longer cable, I speculate it's signal drop-outs)

I live in a multi story apartment building, on top floor facing south. The antenna is pointed South-West (where antennaweb indicates most stations are located). There are some trees to the south and a wooded ridge maybe 1/3 of a mile south. I could place an antenna on a tripod on the balcony, but not on the roof.

So I don't think I have line of sight to the Seattle or Bellevue stations, but when it working it looks pretty seductive :) The question I guess is, is this what people describe as a multi path problem? Will a better antenna (like the Channel Master 4228) help me, or do I simply need an amplifier?

Thanks
Martin

Martin
The hill and the trees are blocking your signal, somewhat. When the breeze picks up, the amount blocked varies. It's not multipath. It's possible, but not likely. Sound is usually what breaks up first when you right on the ragged edge of what the decoder can lock onto. An amplifier may help, but a bigger antenna would be better. You could mount a 4221 on the balcony without too much problem, and point it SW. That would most likely be enough to make the difference.
Dan

Originally posted by Karyk
Thanks. For your exterior experiment I might just buy this $23.99 job from Radio Shack, which I believe is basically the same as the UHF section of my existing antenna.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

If it works it would probably look better than modifying the existing antenna (in the attic it doesn't matter what it looks like), and if it doesn't work I'll still have my existing antenna (and actually, if it does work, I could still use the existing antenna on my MyHD card which has two inputs and allows you to specify which input to use for each channel).

Karyk
I would normally recommend the RatShack 2160, but it's been out of production for a long time. If they started making it again, cool. It IS the front half of the one you have.
Dan

Originally posted by chrhon
MartinK... I live near you but up on finn hill. What you describe is exactly what I was going through last night. I have the silver sensor. I'd go from 2/3 signal strength for a few minutes and then zero.. and I am using a samsung tuner box so I doubt its your card. Not sure what is going on. I went to Frys today becuase someone said they have the channel master 4221 but frys didn't have it.

chrhon
The "strength" indicator is NOT telling you how much signal is coming in. It's the amount of signal to noise ratio. If you have a weak signal, right on the edge of reception, but the noise level varies and occasionally pushes the ratio over the edge, then you get good numbers, and then zero.
It's trying to say I'm close, but need more signal. Get more antenna or a better location.
Dan

Thanks DanKurts..... I got more wire so I can move my antenna around and just ordered a channel master 4221 online so that I can try another antenna. :) what it was was just enough to show me how great it could be and get me hooked.

Originally posted by BigBrownBoy
I've combed through this and haven't bumped into any reports from West Seattle. I'm moving to 8600 17th Avenue SW (98106). Any ideas on what I'll be facing?

B3
No sweat. A 4221 could pull them all in, as long as no major buildings or trees are in the way.
Dan

Originally posted by quarque
Depending on what part of 124th you are on you may be fighting a large hill to the W - SW. If you care to post your nearest cross street I can check it, Your symptoms sound like multipath but could also be marginal signal because of the hill and trees. A better antenna may help but the real solution may be more HEIGHT. If you can't get height you may be SOL.

Thanks for the kind offer. Let me post the business address of the apartment complex, Heronfield Apartments:
11105 Ne 123rd Ln Kirkland, WA 98034-6801

I rent, so more height is out of the question. I'm on top floor though - on eye height on the balcony the trees in the swamp directly below are not in the way.

On the HTPC front, I fixed the stuttering by installing a better GFX card. Reception is very smooth on most channels with audio drop outs every 5 minutes or so. On KTWB-DT/WB I am getting a lot of drop outs so I still have some work to do.

-Martin

Originally posted by McFly9000
An Over The Air success story!

I have read just about every post in this thread so far so I thought I’d share my story. First off here is my location: Lat 47.315207, Lon –121.896120 (10 miles North of Enumclaw in Palmer). That’s 30 miles from QA and CH and about 45 from Gold Mt. This is a heavily wooded area with hills all around. Those antenna experts on here would probably just laugh and say I had no chance getting a digital signal here. I figured I’d give it a try since the analog channels are not too bad with a pre amp and good antenna, but there is a good amount of ghosting on some of the channels.

I started researching tuners. The LG LST-4200A seems to be the best at the moment so that is what I got. I had a Radio Shack monster UHF only antenna sitting around, I believe it is the U120R or something, about 10 feet long. Threw that up on the roof and only got the channels from Tiger Mt. Got signal on all the others, but the meter would jump to about 50 percent and then back to about 10 percent and never show a picture. The antenna is pointing right into a thick group of Fir, Alder and Hemlock trees. Time for plan B.

Found a perfect Cedar tree on the edge of a cliff down to the river that would be perfect. It is a good 130 feet tall and sitting on the edge of a bank that was another 75 feet from the river. Strung a rope up the tree and secured some rope off points, harnessed up and started climbing. I took the antenna without the corner reflectors on and nailed it to the side of a tree about 50 feet up. Strung 250 feet of RG-6 coax down and over to the house and plugged it into the tuner. This time all the channels except Fox were solid, amazing! This was only temporary to see if putting it up the tree would help before I got a better antenna.

Next I picked up and Channel Master 4228 and used the same Winegard AP-8283 pre amp I was using before. Found a permanent location on the tree about 2/3 the way up, like 80 feet or so. Mounted the antenna directly to the tree with a bunch of screws and it was secure and aimed it at about 275*. Trimmed a few surrounding branches and hooked up the coax. 3 hours later I am pleased to report I get all the main channels and their corresponding sub channels. 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 9-1, 11-1, 13-1, 16-1, 20-1, 22-1, 33-1, 45-1, 51-1 and sometimes 28-1. The signal strength on the tuner is about 40-50% for all these channels. It needs about 35% to lock onto channels that’s about to the first “t” on “STRENGTH” text above the yellow signal bar. The other channels range from the “r” to the last “t”

A few notes and questions for the experts out there:

Has anyone else tried the LG LST-4200A tuner? I think this thing is by far and away the most sensitive and powerful tuner out there. It picked up some analog channels from Bellingham and Vancouver neither of my TVs could and the antenna wasn’t even pointing in that direction. (CH 12 and 15)

I know I have a lot of loss from the 300 feet of coax cable. From 19-23dB for RG6 for the length I am running. For RG-11 I think I calculated between 9.8 and 12dB for the same length. So would it be to my advantage to upgrade the coax to RG-11 from the antenna to the outside of the house (about 220 feet)? And where can I get this stuff? Is there anyplace local? I found a couple places online but they had like 500 and 1000 foot spools. And it is pricey in that length.

I did notice during the winds of a couple days ago (40-50 mph gusts) the signal would drop out for a second or two every once in a while. I assume this might be from the tops of trees in front of the antenna, there is also a huge stand of crazy tall Cottonwoods several hundred yards in front of the antenna.

Well that is all for now, sorry for the length but the end result has been totally worth it, picture quality is amazing.:D

McFly9000
Well done on your tenacity and install!
First, it's very possible to pick up 12 &15, because your almost 800ft high, and there's not a lot of noise around you, like in a city. Of course, you're talking analog reception. 12 transmits from over 2000ft elevation. 15 from over 1500ft and with 660kw. I'm betting the picture quality is fairly fuzzy and ghosty, but it is possible. I agree, the analog portion is working well.
I doubt you're loosing 19-23db over 300ft if it's a good quality RG6 like Belden. I know the specs say it should be more, (and ch48 KING is the highest most people need), but I typically see around 4-5db/100ft. You might be able to gain that little extra from RG11. It's been so long since I used any not sure where to get it by the foot. You could try Graybar or C&G, doubt if Pringles has it except on rolls. If you bury it, be sure to get direct burial type, or enclose it in waterproof pipe. If you use RG6, do the same. Treat RG11 very gently. It's stiff like copper pipe and easy to kink. Once bent to much, it's hard to straighten with out affecting it's properties. It's pricey at any length.
2nd, yes the trees are going to affect signal, more than a normal install. Move the antenna up as high as possible. You might even want to hire a tree trimmer dude to move it. Height is whats going to do the most good. You're really threading the needle between the hills, too. Because you're up so high, the angle the signal is coming in to you is almost level, only a few degrees above the horizon. So, if you could get up another 50ft it might be enough. In the 60's and 70's, we used to hire guys to mount antennas in tree tops. Worked well when done right.
Dan

Originally posted by radtek
I'm afraid it is fried. I do have a drip loop on the cable from the antenna to the amp. It is just a straight run from the amp out . I do have the rubber covers that came with the unit installed , should I seal them also with silicone? I have a new unit on its way. I assumed the power supply went out as it stays cool as a cucumber when plugged in. And even I know there has to be some heat generated. And what may I ask is the balun? is this what you attach the wires from the antenna to the cable to? Silicone that also? New 7775 will be here in time for another weekend roof top adventure. Would like to get it right this time. :D

radtek
As long as the amp is mounted so the cables are on the bottom, and the rain can't run up into the fittings, you're cool with the rubber booties. You can check power by simply using a voltmeter on the cable end where it goes into the preamp. Should be about 18volts DC. Yes, the balun is the part that couples the 300ohm antenna to the 75ohm cable (impedance matching transformer). Where the two wires go into it, water can get inside, and enough of it will eventually short it out. I always silicone the ends and wrap the whole balun in electrical tape. I'm a "belt and suspenders" kinda guy on installs. I only want to do it once!
Since you have a new 7775 coming, replace both amp and power supply. Also, double check your fittings to be sure there's no little "hairs" of cable braid that might be shorting out the ends. They can be pretty tiny, and still short things out. Make sure the 2 wires on the balun don't get twisted together, too. Zip tie or tape the balun and cable so it won't move around later. And did you check for staples in the cable?
Last, remember Grasshopper, patience is a virtue.......!
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
radtek
As long as the amp is mounted so the cables are on the bottom, and the rain can't run up into the fittings, you're cool with the rubber booties. You can check power by simply using a voltmeter on the cable end where it goes into the preamp. Should be about 18volts DC. Yes, the balun is the part that couples the 300ohm antenna to the 75ohm cable (impedance matching transformer). Where the two wires go into it, water can get inside, and enough of it will eventually short it out. I always silicone the ends and wrap the whole balun in electrical tape. I'm a "belt and suspenders" kinda guy on installs. I only want to do it once!
Since you have a new 7775 coming, replace both amp and power supply. Also, double check your fittings to be sure there's no little "hairs" of cable braid that might be shorting out the ends. They can be pretty tiny, and still short things out. Make sure the 2 wires on the balun don't get twisted together, too. Zip tie or tape the balun and cable so it won't move around later. And did you check for staples in the cable?
Last, remember Grasshopper, patience is a virtue.......!
Dan

Dan, Thanks for the advice, I will have to admit my patience was wore pretty thin due to the "crab boat in Alaska" working conditions that day and after my wet arthritic fingers dropped the F-56 cable connector I was attaching. Of course it bounced twice, jumped off the roof and hid in the bushes for 20 mins. while I did a hands and knees search. I will attack this task again with renewed vigor and more attention to detail this time. I did a cable check and for some reason did not run any stables through the cable it self.
Radtek

Originally posted by DanKurts
Karyk
I would normally recommend the RatShack 2160, but it's been out of production for a long time. If they started making it again, cool. It IS the front half of the one you have.
Dan

The RS website indicates five local stores have it in stock. If I have time later today I might check to see if the website is correct.

I sort of doubt the low location you suggested will work, due to a nearby house blocking, but maybe if the wife sees how small this thing is she wouldn't object to roof mounting it.

But let's assume the worst case scenario--the low location doesn't work and/or the wife says no to anything external. Since the 2160 is exactly the same as the front half of what I have now:

1. Would there be any advantage to using it instead of what I have now? This gets back to my question of whether the VHF section hurts the UHF signal.

2. What about stacking it with what I have now? (And in this case, by stacking I mean same height and direction, but different location in the attic--I could put it above but it would be very close to the top of the roof, and very close to the other antenna.

Originally posted by Karyk
This is the thread in the computer forum that discusses the basic cards (perhaps less the ATI unless it's been updated).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207262

I have the MyHD and the Fusion card. The Fusion card has the advantage of being able to deal with Comcast's QAM encoding of the local HD signals, but requires a much more powerful computer than the MyHD card, which has it's own video processor. The advantage of the MyHD card is it's easy to set up, because you don't have to try to go through your video card. So assuming your projector can deal with standard HD resolutions, that would be a very easy setup. Another hardware based card that's worth looking at is the Access card, which can pause and then fast forward a live broadcast like a Tivo (and I believe that does come with some sort of antenna).

Oh, and I've not heard anything good about the ATI product.

Thanks much for the link and your thoughts! Yeah, I haven't seen much of anything good about the ATi card, or the WinTV-HD either. I ended up narrowing it down to the two cards you have, and after double-checking our projector and the machine this will go in, it looks like the Fusion card will be the most bang for our buck. We're limited to VGA or composite video input, with a projector that doesn't claim to do anything over 1024x768, but we should be fine letting the computer scale everything within that resolution or maybe a 16:9 resolution if I go power stripping. The computer in question is a 2.8GHz HT-P4 w/1GB of RAM and a GeForce FX 5200, so no worries about having to use CPU to decode. I'm assuming this can't be any harder to set up than my pcHDTV card under Linux at home. :-)

Oh, and thank you quarque for the antenna suggestion.

jarodwilson, I am running the ATI HDTV Wonder in a MCE 2005 machine and had no problems whatsoever. (Or let me say no problems that were ATIs' fault, I have a FX5200 too which is too slow for HD decoding in MCE)

Originally posted by DanKurts
B3
No sweat. A 4221 could pull them all in, as long as no major buildings or trees are in the way.
Dan

Thanks for the advice, guys! It's going to be a couple weeks before I'm able to test this out, but I'll be sure to report the results....

Originally posted by MartinK
Thanks for the kind offer. Let me post the business address of the apartment complex, Heronfield Apartments:
11105 Ne 123rd Ln Kirkland, WA 98034-6801

I rent, so more height is out of the question. I'm on top floor though - on eye height on the balcony the trees in the swamp directly below are not in the way.

On the HTPC front, I fixed the stuttering by installing a better GFX card. Reception is very smooth on most channels with audio drop outs every 5 minutes or so. On KTWB-DT/WB I am getting a lot of drop outs so I still have some work to do.

-Martin
When I plot the profile from your address to the QA towers I see that the Juanita hump is right in your way, about 1/4 mile SW. That hill is about 100 feet higher than your location. And Capitol Hill is even worse, going over the highest part of the hill (30 feet higher).

So first off, when you say "top floor" what floor is that? If it is only a 4-story building you are definitely fighting that hill and whatever trees are on it. Put whatever mast you can get away with on your balcony with a 4221 and see what it does. You may be SOL without more height.

Thanks, I'll try that. I'm on third floor. Does an antenna need free space behind it? (Can I mount it to the column supporting the roof over the balcony?)

How do you guys get through windows without drilling? Flat coax?

Martin

Originally posted by MartinK
Thanks, I'll try that. I'm on third floor. Does an antenna need free space behind it? (Can I mount it to the column supporting the roof over the balcony?)

How do you guys get through windows without drilling? Flat coax?

Martin
No free space required. You can even strap the rear screen of the 4221 to a wall or post. Cables through windows is a bit trickier. If you have one that opens, see if you can make a thin strip of wood to fill the gap, then put a notch or hole in it. It's either that or drill holes in the wall. There is such a thing as flat twin-lead cable. That is what was standard in the old days for VHF installations. It is 300 ohm impedance and loses more signal per foot than coax. You could run that to just inside the window and transition to coax with a balun. I would first find out with a temporary chunk of coax if the 4221 will even fix your problems.

*Late breaking news*

KONG is showing a new sub-channel 16-2 tonight. Seems to be the same content as 16-1 but with grey side bars - perhaps a little more compressed (ala 5-2 and 4-2, but not as bad). I hope this trend does not mean that in a couple years we'll have 40 channels of crap and no decent HD any more.

Originally posted by quarque
*Late breaking news*

KONG is showing a new sub-channel 16-2 tonight. Seems to be the same content as 16-1 but with grey side bars - perhaps a little more compressed (ala 5-2 and 4-2, but not as bad). I hope this trend does not mean that in a couple years we'll have 40 channels of crap and no decent HD any more.

I noticed that last night during the 10:00 news, too. I wasn't sure what the point was since the only HD content on KONG seems to be Northwest Backroads!

Just a random query --

Does anyone but me watch the multicast channels on KBTC? I've gotten kind of hooked on being able to find Charlie Rose on at just about any time of day/night. :)

The person who was watching Star Trek Enterprise last week and wondering whether it's in DD 5.1 or not. I watched it last night, and it was not. Just plain old Dolby.

I started receiving 16-2 about a week ago. As long as these channels can deal with the sub-carriers the way KCTS does, then I think we'll be in fine shape. I wish that KING and KONG would start broadcasting something else (worthwhile ) than what they've already got going on the other channel, such as what KOMO already does.

I have to give kudos to KCTS, and their PBS-HD!!! What a wonderful station. They are really utilizing the power of HD in a great, entertaining way. Now... if they could clean-up the signal on 9-1. They should get rid of those gray bars!!! And then allow the aspect ratio to be changed so you could fill up your screen.

Anyway... I'm really enjoying HD.

Hello all,

I'm just about to jump into a HD life. My first HDTV should be coming home early next week and I'd like to get started in all this OTA HD thing.

I looked around and things don't look very good for me. I'm in the middle of a shallow valley. :( Antennaweb.org says I need a medium directional antenna (red) but for some reason I don't trust that information that much.

Larry, I've seen you've run a few addresses in the recent past to see if they would have LOS to the QA towers. Would you mind running another one? :D

Thank you,
Bruno.

I have heard of pre-amp CM 7775, but cannot find any local stores that would sell that. I am not sure how good a improved reception I would get. I am right now getting 38,39,41,18, 25(I guess Kong) , 22 with decent strength.

Only thing that is giving me pain is KING(ch 48). I guess my antenna is not able to get the higher freq. I do get some stregnth, but not enough for the reciever to lock.

I tried some pre-amp's from Ratshack, but not much difference. Debating if I should give a shot with CM 7775. Need some store that would accept returns if things dont work out well.

Any other ideas for getting Ch 48. (bigger antenna will be tough to get wife's approval)

Originally posted by Rayon
Hello all,

I'm just about to jump into a HD life. My first HDTV should be coming home early next week and I'd like to get started in all this OTA HD thing.

I looked around and things don't look very good for me. I'm in the middle of a shallow valley. :( Antennaweb.org says I need a medium directional antenna (red) but for some reason I don't trust that information that much.

Larry, I've seen you've run a few addresses in the recent past to see if they would have LOS to the QA towers. Would you mind running another one? :D

Thank you,
Bruno.
No problem. PM your address or post your nearest intersection.

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this, Larry. I guess I'll give comcast a call. :(

Thanks,
Bruno.

Larry: I've got a potentially tough lot for HDTV reception. I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a vacant lot and building a home on it but the area is hilly and pretty far from the towers.

The address is 406XX Ski Park Road in Eatonville 98328 (the XX is because the exact address hasn't been determined yet).

Thanks!!

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Larry: I've got a potentially tough lot for HDTV reception. I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a vacant lot and building a home on it but the area is hilly and pretty far from the towers.

The address is 406XX Ski Park Road in Eatonville 98328 (the XX is because the exact address hasn't been determined yet).

Thanks!!
Well "tough" might be an understatement. You would need a 200+ foot tower to get OTA from Seattle. I would go with D* or E* dish system. But it sure looks like a nice piece of land there by Ohop Lake!

Hmm, I don't think a 200' tower is in the budget. HA HA HA HA!!

I need to verify if I can even hit the angle for D* or E* considering how many tall trees and hills are in this area.

The lot is awesome, 500' of lakefront. I'm really hoping I get it.

Thanks!!

Are we out of luck for watching sonics games? Looks like the sonics are on Fox Sports Northwest this year and they don't have OTA do they?

Originally posted by Karyk
The RS website indicates five local stores have it in stock. If I have time later today I might check to see if the website is correct.

I sort of doubt the low location you suggested will work, due to a nearby house blocking, but maybe if the wife sees how small this thing is she wouldn't object to roof mounting it.

But let's assume the worst case scenario--the low location doesn't work and/or the wife says no to anything external. Since the 2160 is exactly the same as the front half of what I have now:

1. Would there be any advantage to using it instead of what I have now? This gets back to my question of whether the VHF section hurts the UHF signal.

2. What about stacking it with what I have now? (And in this case, by stacking I mean same height and direction, but different location in the attic--I could put it above but it would be very close to the top of the roof, and very close to the other antenna.

Karyk
1. No.
THe VHF section doesn't affect the UHF section unless you somehow damaged the VHF part, like the signal carrying rods got shorted to the main boom, or elements were bent, etc.
2. Stacking is just that. One on top of the other, on the same mast, pointed the exact same direction, coupled with the exact same length of cable on each one. You might get a little more gain, but it will also get more noise, and, worse, there will be a different amount of signal reaching each one, because of the slope of the roof and supports. This will most likely cancel any gain, and probably be worse. It will also be narrower in reception, meaning it's going to be far more sensitive to direction.

Put it outside, try it, and see what you get. It doesn't have to be up high, just enough to clear the roof. If it works great, and she likes the picture, you done. If not, at least you know what it's going to take to get good signal, and where it likes to be, or not, so you can figure where in the attic you might get better reception.
You might also try a 4221.
Dan

Originally posted by pastiche
I noticed that last night during the 10:00 news, too. I wasn't sure what the point was since the only HD content on KONG seems to be Northwest Backroads!

Guys
They're doing the same thing on 5-1. It's the same program material in Standard Def. A few customers had me add it to their Pronto's. They like it because the S/def is coming over the air and looks cleaner than satellite or cable, and they can fill the screen with a stretch mode. They know it's not HD, but they're willing to sacrifice a little quality in order to fill the screen and no black bars.
Whatever makes 'em happy!
Dan

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Hmm, I don't think a 200' tower is in the budget. HA HA HA HA!!

I need to verify if I can even hit the angle for D* or E* considering how many tall trees and hills are in this area.

The lot is awesome, 500' of lakefront. I'm really hoping I get it.

Thanks!!

For a rough idea of satellite, you need look in the direction of SE, from about 140-160 degrees, and about 32-37 degrees elevation. There are some slightly larger dishes tha can be used if it's close to the tree tops.
Dan

Thanks Dan. For both Dish Network and DirecTV do they face the same direction?

Originally posted by DanKurts
Karyk
Put it outside, try it, and see what you get. It doesn't have to be up high, just enough to clear the roof. If it works great, and she likes the picture, you done. If not, at least you know what it's going to take to get good signal, and where it likes to be, or not, so you can figure where in the attic you might get better reception.
You might also try a 4221.
Dan

Dan, thank you for the advice (and saving me from doing things that probably won't work!). I guess even if I end up being stuck with the attic, the UHF only one would be easier to move around in the attic.

Originally posted by quarque
Hard to say which design is better without trying both. I'd go with a CM 4221.

I probably go with the CM4228. Since it install under the artic, little more gain will help pickup the weak signal.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Hmm, I don't think a 200' tower is in the budget. HA HA HA HA!!

I need to verify if I can even hit the angle for D* or E* considering how many tall trees and hills are in this area.

The lot is awesome, 500' of lakefront. I'm really hoping I get it.

Thanks!!
You can sight the satellites locations using the sun and moon. See this site: http://perso.numericable.fr/~gjullien/satellite.htm

Your longitude is 122.27 W and latitude is 46.88 N. Center sat is at 110 W.
Right now the sun is a few degrees off in elevation but between 11:00 AM and 1:00 PM you will get a pretty good idea of what is needed to see all three birds (101,110,119). You can also use the moon if you can't get there around noon.

Originally posted by Karyk
Dan, thank you for the advice (and saving me from doing things that probably won't work!). I guess even if I end up being stuck with the attic, the UHF only one would be easier to move around in the attic.

Hi,

I have a used 2160 in the box...I installed it here in Duvall for a couple of months but had trouble getting 11.1 so I upgraded to the larger 4228.

I work in Seattle across from Sodo Center (Sears/Starbucks) on 1st Ave...If you want you can drop by the shop, pick it up and give it a try.

just let me know...Doug

Originally posted by McFly9000
An Over The Air success story!

I have read just about every post in this thread so far so I thought I’d share my story. First off here is my location: Lat 47.315207, Lon –121.896120 (10 miles North of Enumclaw in Palmer). That’s 30 miles from QA and CH and about 45 from Gold Mt. This is a heavily wooded area with hills all around. Those antenna experts on here would probably just laugh and say I had no chance getting a digital signal here. I figured I’d give it a try since the analog channels are not too bad with a pre amp and good antenna, but there is a good amount of ghosting on some of the channels.

I started researching tuners. The LG LST-4200A seems to be the best at the moment so that is what I got. I had a Radio Shack monster UHF only antenna sitting around, I believe it is the U120R or something, about 10 feet long. Threw that up on the roof and only got the channels from Tiger Mt. Got signal on all the others, but the meter would jump to about 50 percent and then back to about 10 percent and never show a picture. The antenna is pointing right into a thick group of Fir, Alder and Hemlock trees. Time for plan B.

Found a perfect Cedar tree on the edge of a cliff down to the river that would be perfect. It is a good 130 feet tall and sitting on the edge of a bank that was another 75 feet from the river. Strung a rope up the tree and secured some rope off points, harnessed up and started climbing. I took the antenna without the corner reflectors on and nailed it to the side of a tree about 50 feet up. Strung 250 feet of RG-6 coax down and over to the house and plugged it into the tuner. This time all the channels except Fox were solid, amazing! This was only temporary to see if putting it up the tree would help before I got a better antenna.

Next I picked up and Channel Master 4228 and used the same Winegard AP-8283 pre amp I was using before. Found a permanent location on the tree about 2/3 the way up, like 80 feet or so. Mounted the antenna directly to the tree with a bunch of screws and it was secure and aimed it at about 275*. Trimmed a few surrounding branches and hooked up the coax. 3 hours later I am pleased to report I get all the main channels and their corresponding sub channels. 4-1, 5-1, 7-1 9-1, 11-1, 13-1, 16-1, 20-1, 22-1, 33-1, 45-1, 51-1 and sometimes 28-1. The signal strength on the tuner is about 40-50% for all these channels. It needs about 35% to lock onto channels that’s about to the first “t” on “STRENGTH” text above the yellow signal bar. The other channels range from the “r” to the last “t”

A few notes and questions for the experts out there:

Has anyone else tried the LG LST-4200A tuner? I think this thing is by far and away the most sensitive and powerful tuner out there. It picked up some analog channels from Bellingham and Vancouver neither of my TVs could and the antenna wasn’t even pointing in that direction. (CH 12 and 15)

I know I have a lot of loss from the 300 feet of coax cable. From 19-23dB for RG6 for the length I am running. For RG-11 I think I calculated between 9.8 and 12dB for the same length. So would it be to my advantage to upgrade the coax to RG-11 from the antenna to the outside of the house (about 220 feet)? And where can I get this stuff? Is there anyplace local? I found a couple places online but they had like 500 and 1000 foot spools. And it is pricey in that length.

I did notice during the winds of a couple days ago (40-50 mph gusts) the signal would drop out for a second or two every once in a while. I assume this might be from the tops of trees in front of the antenna, there is also a huge stand of crazy tall Cottonwoods several hundred yards in front of the antenna.

Well that is all for now, sorry for the length but the end result has been totally worth it, picture quality is amazing.:D

The Zenith HD420 is very sinsitive also. My has no problem when the signal above 32. I pickup channel 24 in Bellingham 40% most of the time, which about 82 miles away. And channel 28 Tacoma come in 98% of the time. The CM4228 antenna currently in the artic with 5 way splitter to all outlets through the house. I live 1/2-1 mile from West of South Center Mall (between South Center Mall and Burien, close to airport run way).