KOMO has had a lot of problems. There's quite a bit of discussion about it above.

Originally posted by tuquet
Larry,

Need to bug you again. Could you check if there is any chance for OTA at 78th Ave NE and NE 198th St in Kenmore. These are new roads so may not show on some maps, the closest existing intersection would be 80th and 195th. Visual inspection tells me zero but I would love to hear otherwise. Thanks.

-tq
no problema (really!) - you have no hills that interfere with LOS, but how about trees?

no problema (really!) - you have no hills that interfere with LOS, but how about trees?

For what it's worth, I am getting respectable OTA in Lakewood even through trees. In fact, I have a water tower just to the left of LOS. No hills, but Lotsa trees. I wasn't able to get UPN until recently (I think they bumped their power up, same for FOX). Kiro mostly works but after they bump the power up I have high hopes the picture will be even more stable (tends to breeak up in windy/rainy conditions). Course, since I can get all but UPN and Kiro HD from Comcast I do not spend a great deal of time OTA on the other locals. Your mileage may vary.

Bottom line, doesn't hurt to try...

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Dan,

Can you please say more about the channel 5 audio delays. I had not noticed the problem but I will watch for it tonight after work.

How much delay are you talking about? On the entire program, or just in-studio segments, or taped segments?

BTW, you offer a GREAT service to folks here on the forum. I am a lucky one with LOS and near-perfect reception results with a $20 UHF antenna from Radio Shack located 5 feet above the top of my chimney. Of course, I have no idea what the actual slope looks like on any of my received channels, but if the end result is okay, I guess it does not matter much. I was skeptical when I started HD because my analog reception from QA and C hills is loaded with ghosts. Like I said, I am one of the lucky ones.



Budget_HT
Thanks. We're all here to learn and help out, and it's fun being in something I really enjoy doing.

The ch5 audio problem seems to mainly the programs that are live, like the news. Honestly can't remember if the Evening show or Robert Maks Sun night show has the delay. It's almost to the point where I'm used to it, so I don't notice it as much. It's on both over air and Comcast, haven't checked out Millenium cable yet, but I'll have a chance Monday. Where ever it's being introduced during the news, it's after the studio, or production, I would guess, as it's on the taped and live segments from the field, as well as the live studio. It's also on KONG, obviously, as it's the same place. I would guess it's about .5 to 1 second. Just enough that you can see the lip movement doesn't match the audio. I've done some home video and audio mixing, (no pro, just fun stuff) and having had the problems of synchronizing audio tape speeds to video. It stands out right away (Ooops, I screwed up another DVD !). If I'm really tired, and just running on auto pilot while watching the news channels, I'll surf over to ch5 and it will jump right out. I'll automatically start reaching for the speed control for the audio tape, which isn't there, and then have to change to some other channel !
I was told over a year ago it would fixed in 2004. Oh, well....

Dan

Just checking in to see what's up with KIRO. I too have the audio problems with KING and KOMO, and it was out of sync last week on WB for the Gilmore Girls. Pretty lame the problems aren't corrected by now.

More power from KCPQ and KCTS? With my antenna pointed between those two xmitters I had reception problems until a few months ago.

My audio amp shows DD for Soundstage on KCTS but get nothing in the rear speakers. Anyone else?

KIRO TV is currently upgrading there HD Transmitter and should be back on the Air by Sunday December 19 this upgrade will give KIRO more power and greater HD coverage in the Seattle area.

I hope that's real (and that Sunday means before the game(s) start).

We hope to have everything done sometime Saturday night because we too are big football fans here at KIRO and want to make sure you see the NFL in HD.

Originally posted by Jiff
... My audio amp shows DD for Soundstage on KCTS but get nothing in the rear speakers. Anyone else?

IIRC, Soundstage is sometimes (always?) DD 2.0 instead of DD 5.1. My A/V receiver specifies DD with one indicator and then displays which speakers are active, which is how I see the difference between 2.0 and 5.1.

KIRO TV - welcome to the forum, nice to see you here. I've been watching since 2001. Less though, since starting with Comcast last year ;)

KIRO TV:

Thank you for responding here on the forum. You carry some of the better HD programs, and I miss you this week, but I understand why now.

Are you making any other changes, like adding the ability to insert local spots and commercials during a network HD program? Just curious.

Funny you should mention about HD Spots and local content we are adding new video file servers right now to handle HD content and hope to have them on line very soon. We are testing our HD Servers in house and hope to have them on air very soon. Thankyou for all the kind words about HD.

Originally posted by quarque
no problema (really!) - you have no hills that interfere with LOS, but how about trees? There are trees but not too close nor too dense. But you are serious right? I have been thinking of boxing away my two receivers. Thanks as always.

jameskollar, yes I will try late Feb when I move into this place. I will let you guys know how it turns out. Just curious, anyone in the surrounding area with some experience, good or bad?

Originally posted by KIRO TV
Funny you should mention about HD Spots and local content we are adding new video file servers right now to handle HD content and hope to have them on line very soon. We are testing our HD Servers in house and hope to have them on air very soon. Thankyou for all the kind words about HD.

Thanks for posting here! I also think that KIRO-DT has done a real good job with HD broadcasting.

Care to post any additional details about the modifications and upgrades you're installing? I think many of us here would find it very interesting.

scre* the modifications and upgrades and get with Comcast and turn on Channel 107!!!!! I am tired of paying BellExpressVu to watch my local CBS HD station!

We are currently working on installing a second IOT at our Queen Anne transmit site that will let us go full power on channel 39. We are currently not licensed to go to a full Mega Watt due to some hang ups with the Canadian government. This is an interesting issue due to the fact that we are required per FCC regulations to be at full power by July of 2005. We will just have to wait and see what happens on this one. We will be back up late Saturday night if all continues on it's current track. Once we are back up we will still only be on a single IOT at our old power level. In the next few weeks we will be on a dual IOT system that will have the capability to go to full power. We will increase power a little once we have both IOTs on line, but I don't expect anyone to notice.

thanks for the input
KIRO

Hi
I live in coal creek parkway/factoria area, and am able to get all OTA HDTV channels, except KCPQ, using just an indoor antenna. Do I have to get an oudoor antenna to get KCPQ/FOx?? If so, which one should I get? I would like to watch seahawks game on HDTV this weekend!

Thanks

Originally posted by kuching
Hi
I live in coal creek parkway/factoria area, and am able to get all OTA HDTV channels, except KCPQ, using just an indoor antenna. Do I have to get an oudoor antenna to get KCPQ/FOx?? If so, which one should I get? I would like to watch seahawks game on HDTV this weekend!

Thanks
You might have a hill blocking LOS to Bremerton where KCPQ tower is. Post your nearest intersection and I will check.

Kiro (or I should say CBS) has the best HDTV content. But as for local news, Komo (ABC affiliate) is the only station doing true HDTV news broadcasts. King (NBC) does some hybrid combination of SD and HD, which is kind of annoying in my opinion. Kiro doesn't do any HDTV local news.

Given the choice, I always default to Komo for my local news, not because I like them better, but because of the HD broadcast.

quarque

I live at coak creek parkyway and forest drive. Please check to see if there is any hill that blocks the KCPQ/FOX Signal.

thanks

Originally posted by Mike777
Kiro (or I should say CBS) has the best HDTV content. But as for local news, Komo (ABC affiliate) is the only station doing true HDTV news broadcasts. King (NBC) does some hybrid combination of SD and HD, which is kind of annoying in my opinion. Kiro doesn't do any HDTV local news.

Given the choice, I always default to Komo for my local news, not because I like them better, but because of the HD broadcast.

Mike777
KIRO does do 1080i, but in a 4:3 format. KING also does 1080i, but depending on which camera is on, it switches back and forth from 16:9 to 4:3. I spoke with the engineers at KING years ago, when they started doing this switching, and their answer was people were calling in complaining that there were black bars on the top of their TV screens when watching HD. The reason for the complaints is simple. These are the people that bought the tube-type 4:3 HD sets, so obviously you have to watch HD in a letterbox mode. The people that bought 16:9 sets get to watch the 4:3 HD picture. BUT, because these same people are used to seeing these anomalies, or just don't know what the cause is and figure that's the way it's supposed to be, they aren't calling in and complaining. The engineer told me they could broadcast it either way, but, because the wheel that squeaks gets the grease, they do it the current way. SO...... the more people with 16:9 sets that call or e-mail them and say they " I'm mad as H*** and not going to take 4:3 anymore!!! " , the sooner we'll all get a normal 16:9 newscast.

AND, to Mr.KIRO engineer,
I'm a KIRO viewer since 58, when you started broadcasting JP. All the local kids would meet at my dads TV shop after school, as we were one of the few that has the new Big Screen 29" RCA's ! This is also where I learned to repair them, develop a fairly keen eye for picture and sound detail and appreciate the finer points of antenna installation with twin lead, arrgghh!!

Thanks for the comments and information on your update. I, for one, am very aware of how well your signal carries all over the Puget Sound area. For the most part, I've had no major receptions problem due to power or direction ( I'm aware of the polar plot, and frankly think you're putting out a little more to the west then you claim!). The ugly areas I've found are very few and I think they're 98% a terrain problem. Call if you would like more details. I can also attest to the fact that many of my customers with HD sets don't watch your newscasts just because of the 4:3 frame. It's sad, but true. When you first started, the KIRO logo used to show in the lower corner, and overlapped the picture and into the black border area, making it all the more noticeable. Since then, you've moved the logo over into the picture area, making it look more like an upconverted SD picture. Less people will notice it, maybe, but you really need to do a 16:9 broadcast, like the national CBS feeds that you show.
PLEASE, make the change, and we'll all be better for it !!
Happy $ati$fied u$er$ will make rating$ increa$e, adverti$ing profit$ go up and, who know$, you might even get a pay increa$$$$e !!!

Again, thanks for sharing on the forum.

Dan

Originally posted by Mike777
Kiro (or I should say CBS) has the best HDTV content. But as for local news, Komo (ABC affiliate) is the only station doing true HDTV news broadcasts. King (NBC) does some hybrid combination of SD and HD, which is kind of annoying in my opinion. Kiro doesn't do any HDTV local news.

Given the choice, I always default to Komo for my local news, not because I like them better, but because of the HD broadcast.

The KOMO news bug is murder on any screen subject to burn in. KIRO's is only a bit better, and what we currently watch. The King HD news bug is the best, but their HD is so bad it's not worth watching (except for a few laughs when it's obvious they don't know what the image area is for a 16:9 image.)

Originally posted by Karyk
The KOMO news bug is murder on any screen subject to burn in. KIRO's is only a bit better, and what we currently watch. The King HD news bug is the best, but their HD is so bad it's not worth watching (except for a few laughs when it's obvious they don't know what the image area is for a 16:9 image.)

Are you referring to KING-DT and KONG-DT showing text at the extreme top and bottom of the picture, such that any TV with even a small amount of overscan will see that text cut off?

It appears to me that the other local stations and the networks are framing their content to account for a reasonable amount of overscan, while local HD (and upconverted SD) programs on KING and KONG do not. This includes programs like Evening Magazine and Northwest Backroads in addition to newscasts.

I once wrote KING an email describing this scenario, but I never received a response. Perhaps they choose to disagree on principle, based on a fixed-pixel digital display having no need for overscan?

Anyway, it is frustrating to watch their local HD and upconverted SD programs and have some content be missing from the viewable area on my screen. I don't have this problem with any other OTA or satellite digital channel.

Originally posted by KIRO TV
Funny you should mention about HD Spots and local content we are adding new video file servers right now to handle HD content and hope to have them on line very soon. We are testing our HD Servers in house and hope to have them on air very soon. Thankyou for all the kind words about HD. Boy, will that make my wife happy - she is starting to cover her ears and run from the room when she hears "It's All Here!" ....

Hi all, my apologies if these questions have been asked and answered, I have searched, but without success. Two questions:

1) Any experience with reception on the north side of Greenlake (82nd & Densmore)?

2) I'm still unclear on what is broadcast in 4x3 and what is in 16x9. Is it station specific? Or for a given station might some shows be 4x3 and others 16x9? If the latter, is there a list anywhere? We're mostly watching KCPQ and KING. Or am I even assuming something incorrectly in how I've asked the question.

Larry,

Could you check reception possibilities for my brother-in-law? His one story house is on Flamingo Road, Port Townsend WA 98368.

Thanks!

ntaylor,

KCPQ (channel 18) broadcasts 24 hours a day in 720p, and KING (channel 48) broadcasts 24 hours a day in 1080i.

However, most of what they broadcast is a standard definition 4:3 picture inside the 1280x720 or 1920x1080 16:9 rectangle. TitanTV will somewhat accurately tell you the schedule for their 16:9 HDTV broadcasts.

I have to admit, KIRO TV deserves props for actually bothering to post here. Now, if Santa will bring me a new antenna next week (one of the *joys* of a curious 2 year old!), I will be able to get back to OTA!

Why thank you Malcolm, we are still working to have our HD Transmitter up by late Saturday. The transmitter folks from KIRO and Harris have been working 17 hours days since Sunday to have it completed by this Sunday. If we can be of help to you please post it here and we will try to help out. The rest of us our working on the rest of our HD install for local content. As far getting a new Antenna I think the KIRO Santa has left the building. So happy HD holidays!!
KIRO Engineering Department

Originally posted by JasG
Boy, will that make my wife happy - she is starting to cover her ears and run from the room when she hears "It's All Here!" .... My 5-year old son, on the other hand, sings along with the tune.

Hay KIRO TV - I live on Olympia and got a KIRO HD signal for 10 seconds years ago. I hope the new power will get me a signal I can use. I am in a zone where I am supposed to get Signals from Seattle - I only get FOX's HD. Hopefully KIRO's full power might help me.

Originally posted by kuching
quarque

I live at coak creek parkyway and forest drive. Please check to see if there is any hill that blocks the KCPQ/FOX Signal.

thanks
You are at about 200 feet and just west of you is a 300 foot hill. If you put something on the roof you should have a straight shot at KCPQ. Good luck!

Originally posted by Steve Schauer
Larry,

Could you check reception possibilities for my brother-in-law? His one story house is on Flamingo Road, Port Townsend WA 98368.

Thanks!

It does not look good. That area is at about 200 feet and 2 miles to the SE is a 350 foot hill blocking the Seattle towers. You would need about a 100-foot tower to get direct LOS.

Originally posted by quarque
It does not look good. That area is at about 200 feet and 2 miles to the SE is a 350 foot hill blocking the Seattle towers. You would need about a 100-foot tower to get direct LOS.

Would he be in the "NW shadow" where KOMO-DT will not likely be strong enough to receive successfully?

Originally posted by KIRO TV
Why thank you Malcolm, we are still working to have our HD Transmitter up by late Saturday. The transmitter folks from KIRO and Harris have been working 17 hours days since Sunday to have it completed by this Sunday. If we can be of help to you please post it here and we will try to help out. The rest of us our working on the rest of our HD install for local content. As far getting a new Antenna I think the KIRO Santa has left the building. So happy HD holidays!!
KIRO Engineering Department

I did write Kiro, via the web site, about the HD transmitter work. The reply I got indicated that the signal would be up in time for the football games this weekend - which are on SATURDAY as well as Sunday. I guess Saturday is now out, and I don't think I'd take a bet for Sunday.

The reason for my comments to Kiro was to get them to inform Directv that they were off the air, with hopes of being able to get the HD feed from them (Directv). I'm guessing that that isn't going to go anywhere either.

It's odd that we are asking broadcasters to compensate for inconsistent standards across consumer electronics manufacturers. The problem is Plasma generally has no overscan while fixed pixel and CRT RPTV manufacturers use it to hide defects created in their assembly process and in the shipping and handling of the devices. My former Mitz HDTV and current Sony HDTV both had excessive overscan out of the box. Unlike PC devices that provide an easy method to adjust image width and height, most sets require the use of cryptic service menus to adjust the image.

Phew.... That said, ive made the adjustments to eliminate the overscan. You can eliminate on your own through finding the details on the here on AVS or on the internet or by paying an ISF technician.

Thx,
Vidkidd


Originally posted by Budget_HT
Are you referring to KING-DT and KONG-DT showing text at the extreme top and bottom of the picture, such that any TV with even a small amount of overscan will see that text cut off?

It appears to me that the other local stations and the networks are framing their content to account for a reasonable amount of overscan, while local HD (and upconverted SD) programs on KING and KONG do not. This includes programs like Evening Magazine and Northwest Backroads in addition to newscasts.

I once wrote KING an email describing this scenario, but I never received a response. Perhaps they choose to disagree on principle, based on a fixed-pixel digital display having no need for overscan?

Anyway, it is frustrating to watch their local HD and upconverted SD programs and have some content be missing from the viewable area on my screen. I don't have this problem with any other OTA or satellite digital channel.

Did anyone else notice that Enterprise was no in HD last night. I wonder what happened.

Originally posted by Jolly1
I did write Kiro, via the web site, about the HD transmitter work. The reply I got indicated that the signal would be up in time for the football games this weekend - which are on SATURDAY as well as Sunday. I guess Saturday is now out, and I don't think I'd take a bet for Sunday.

The reason for my comments to Kiro was to get them to inform Directv that they were off the air, with hopes of being able to get the HD feed from them (Directv). I'm guessing that that isn't going to go anywhere either.

I wrote them too and got the same answer. I had invited some friends over to watch the game today and had to cancel. KIRO must really think there aren't a whole lot of people watching to schedule having it down all week. Imagine the outcry if this happened with their regular broadcast.

Has anyone been able to get waivers from KIRO so they can receive CBS-HD from Directv? I've been trying but so far nothing. I'm about 30miles from the transmitting tower and get a marginal signal even with a large antenna. It's frustrating that the signal is available from Directv but KIRO refuses to allow me to receive it.

Did channel 7-1 change. I do not get it anymore.?

Do I need a special antenna to get HD.
I have just been using the one that is on top of the house. It must be 30 years old. If you recommend a new one what should I get.?


I live on top of grand ridge in Issaquah and I can see direct line of sight Columbia tower, space needle in Seattle and Bellevue from my roof I am 18 miles away exactly.



Any help would be appreciated.

Originally posted by KIRO TV
We are currently working on installing a second IOT at our Queen Anne transmit site that will let us go full power on channel 39. We are currently not licensed to go to a full Mega Watt due to some hang ups with the Canadian government. This is an interesting issue due to the fact that we are required per FCC regulations to be at full power by July of 2005. We will just have to wait and see what happens on this one. We will be back up late Saturday night if all continues on it's current track. Once we are back up we will still only be on a single IOT at our old power level. In the next few weeks we will be on a dual IOT system that will have the capability to go to full power. We will increase power a little once we have both IOTs on line, but I don't expect anyone to notice.

thanks for the input
KIRO

Hi,

I just got my HD TV hooked up a couple days ago.

Thanks to Dan Kurts for the professional antenna installation! :)

Now I'm getting ready to check out some football in HD this weekend.

I understand that CBS broadcasts all their football games in HD, is that correct? I know KIRO's HD channel is currently off the air but I hope they are back up by tomorrow.

What about Fox Sports? Do they broadcast all football games in HD?
Tomorrow's Seahawks game is on KCPQ 13.

Sorry for the newbie question ... is there an easy way to find out what games are in HD vs SD?

Thanks,

Steve

SteveCoug - SOME CBS games are in HD but ALL FOX games on 13 have been in HD AFAIK. CBS also broadcast a few college games in HD.

Poll -
Just curious as to how many people can tell the difference between 1080i games and 720p games. I can detect slightly more detail in the 1080i games myself, but it is rather subtle. I'm trying to figure out if it is the conversion to 1080i (native) for my TV of the 720p games or is it inherent in all 720p games on everyone's set.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Would he be in the "NW shadow" where KOMO-DT will not likely be strong enough to receive successfully?
yep, that too, but first you have to get past the hill for it to matter :(

Originally posted by quarque
Poll -
Just curious as to how many people can tell the difference between 1080i games and 720p games. I can detect slightly more detail in the 1080i games myself, but it is rather subtle. I'm trying to figure out if it is the conversion to 1080i (native) for my TV of the 720p games or is it inherent in all 720p games on everyone's set.

Overall I prefer 1080i, I can see more detail on my CRT projector. Native 720p from ABC looks pretty good, way better than 720p from FOX which looks the worst but I don't think you can blame that on 720p. CBS consistently looks the best.

Steve

Originally posted by KIRO TV
We hope to have everything done sometime Saturday night because we too are big football fans here at KIRO and want to make sure you see the NFL in HD.

Coming in fine for me right now. Looking foward to seeing the games in HD tomorrow. :)

Looks like KIRO-DT (39-1) OTA is back on-line. The signal level is a little low. They are probably testing right now. Look like we'll get HD CBS NFL tomorrow!

Yep, KIRO-DT seems to be back. Signal level looks the same as before.

Originally posted by ntaylor
Hi all, my apologies if these questions have been asked and answered, I have searched, but without success. Two questions:

1) Any experience with reception on the north side of Greenlake (82nd & Densmore)?

2) I'm still unclear on what is broadcast in 4x3 and what is in 16x9. Is it station specific? Or for a given station might some shows be 4x3 and others 16x9? If the latter, is there a list anywhere? We're mostly watching KCPQ and KING. Or am I even assuming something incorrectly in how I've asked the question.

ntaylor
1.Yes. Done several around you, no problem, assuming you mount it outside and there are no major obstructions from SW to SE. Use a 4221, point it basically due south, and a 10db attenuator.
2. There's not a list I know of. It's more program specific than staion specific as to what's in 4:3 or 16:9. A lot of what I've seen on 13 is HD in 4:3, a few sports shows in 16:9, but either way, it's far sharper than regular TV. King is 1080i, news is part of each type, national HD shows, like Leno is 16:9.
The answer to the other part of the question is that not all shows are filmed in HD, so a lot is upconverted regular definition, on all stations. Again, it usually looks better than regular, but it depends on the program.
Last, not all TV's can display 720p, so they convert it to 1080i. Again, depending on program quality, this can be fine, or sometimes, just average. It's still better than regular, though.
Dan

KIRO got it done for us. Good Job KIRO engineering!!!!

I hope someone can help me. I had been getting 7-1 just fine for several weeks. About a week before KIRO started their lastest work, it went away. Signal level had been in high 70's, dropped to 40 or so. Then this last week they did their work. Last night, KIRO-DT was booming and I watched Cold Case. Almost as if timed, right after Cold Case, it went off the air. I still don't have it this morning.

I live between Silverdale and Poulsbo in Kitsap County. I have a 4221 antenna in the attic. All other channels are fine. Any ideas?

Paul

KIRO came back up fine for me here in Port Townsend with a 4228.

pecocus my preamp died a couple days ago out of the blue and I lost all signal until I bypassed the preamp. Did you lose all OTA or just KIRO?

I just lost KIRO. Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't have a pre-amp on the line.

I just watched my first football games in HD TV this weekend.

The PQ was awesome, as you all know. I have Panasonic AE700 video projector and a 92" diag. screen.

I noticed that the HD picture on ESPNHD (Dish Satelite) and the OTA HD picture from KCPQ 13 was amazingly clear. But today when I switched back and forth between the Sehawks game in HD on KCPQ 13-1 and the NFL game in HD on KIRO 7-1, the HD picture quality on KIRO 7-1 seemed to be "softer" than the sharp detailed picture on ESPNHD and KCPQ 13-1.

I am on top of a hill in Bellevue, with direct line of sight to all transmitters and my OTA HD signals boom in at 110-125 on all channels, so signal strength is not an issue. The PQ on KIRO just semed to be noticeably softer than the other HD channels, as if it was being broadcast in 480P rather than 720P like the NFL game on Fox.

I'm still a newbie at HD TV, so I am wondering if anybody else noticed this, or is it just me?

My reception of KIRO ATSC UHF (39-1) is definitely not as good now. I'm getting several dropouts per minute. It's like I'm getting severe multipath. My signal level will drift from ~85% to nearly zero and back repeatedly. Hopefully once they get their second IOT going I'll be back to where I was before. My reception was pretty solid prior to last week. All other channels are as good as ever.

I'm in Kenmore about 0.7 mi up the sammamish river.

Originally posted by pecocus
I hope someone can help me. I had been getting 7-1 just fine for several weeks. About a week before KIRO started their lastest work, it went away. Signal level had been in high 70's, dropped to 40 or so. Then this last week they did their work. Last night, KIRO-DT was booming and I watched Cold Case. Almost as if timed, right after Cold Case, it went off the air. I still don't have it this morning.

I live between Silverdale and Poulsbo in Kitsap County. I have a 4221 antenna in the attic. All other channels are fine. Any ideas?

Paul

pecocus
What's most likely is that you are right on the ragged edge of reception for your receiver. Your real signal level is probably around -13db to -16db for KIRO. The numbers you see indicated are signal to noise ratio. Working with digital decoders, you must have a minimum input level/threshold for them to be able to pick it out of the background noise. The trees around you, and being in the attic, causes variations in actual signal level, and when you're just above minimum, it reads fine. A hair less, and the decoder does a thing we call avalanche, or you just gover over the edge and, zero.
What this means is that the others you think are fine most likely are barely there, too. I would suggest moving the antenna out of the attic. Your location is a long haul for a 4221 inside. It would get you just that little bit extra to keep you well above minimums.
Dan

Originally posted by SteveCoug
I just watched my first football games in HD TV this weekend.

The PQ was awesome, as you all know. I have Panasonic AE700 video projector and a 92" diag. screen.

I noticed that the HD picture on ESPNHD (Dish Satelite) and the OTA HD picture from KCPQ 13 was amazingly clear. But today when I switched back and forth between the Sehawks game in HD on KCPQ 13-1 and the NFL game in HD on KIRO 7-1, the HD picture quality on KIRO 7-1 seemed to be "softer" than the sharp detailed picture on ESPNHD and KCPQ 13-1.

I am on top of a hill in Bellevue, with direct line of sight to all transmitters and my OTA HD signals boom in at 110-125 on all channels, so signal strength is not an issue. The PQ on KIRO just semed to be noticeably softer than the other HD channels, as if it was being broadcast in 480P rather than 720P like the NFL game on Fox.

I'm still a newbie at HD TV, so I am wondering if anybody else noticed this, or is it just me?

Steve
Glad you're enjoying the picture!
One thing people don't realize, in all this HD comparison thing, is that program content, or the quality of the actual picture being broadcast on the HD carrier, varies quite a bit. Much of the differences you see, station to station, are program content. The best way to judge a particular station is watch the local live newscast, when they are using a camera in the studio, not the field reports. That's about the best it's going to be.
Dan

Originally posted by Steve Smith
Did anyone else notice that Enterprise was no in HD last night. I wonder what happened.

Other than the Friday night broadcasts, I don't think any of the other broadcasts are in HD. I'm not sure what they do on Friday broadcasts that are reruns.

What's most likely is that you are right on the ragged edge of reception for your receiver. Your real signal level is probably around -13db to -16db for KIRO. The numbers you see indicated are signal to noise ratio. Working with digital decoders, you must have a minimum input level/threshold for them to be able to pick it out of the background noise. The trees around you, and being in the attic, causes variations in actual signal level, and when you're just above minimum, it reads fine. A hair less, and the decoder does a thing we call avalanche, or you just gover over the edge and, zero. What this means is that the others you think are fine most likely are barely there, too. I would suggest moving the antenna out of the attic. Your location is a long haul for a 4221 inside. It would get you just that little bit extra to keep you well above minimums.
Dan

Dan... thank for the advice. With what you say, I'm going to try one thing first. I actually have two antenna's up there... one pointed at Seattle, one pointed at Bremerton for KPCQ. Right now they are simply connected by a combiner. I have ordered a join-tenna cut to only pass UHF 18 (13-1) that I will put inline on the 4221 pointed at Bremerton. My "theory" is that I'm picking up a lot of extra noise and multi-path with the 2nd antenna right now. Hopefully, this will help.

Paul

Originally posted by pecocus
Dan... thank for the advice. With what you say, I'm going to try one thing first. I actually have two antenna's up there... one pointed at Seattle, one pointed at Bremerton for KPCQ. Right now they are simply connected by a combiner. I have ordered a join-tenna cut to only pass UHF 18 (13-1) that I will put inline on the 4221 pointed at Bremerton. My "theory" is that I'm picking up a lot of extra noise and multi-path with the 2nd antenna right now. Hopefully, this will help.

Paul

I found I get better reception on all channels with just one antenna than with two using a simple combiner. KCPQ comes in strong enough here that the antenna doesn't need to be pointed in that direction. Because of that I never tried the join-tenna solution.

Originally posted by Karyk
I found I get better reception on all channels with just one antenna than with two using a simple combiner. KCPQ comes in strong enough here that the antenna doesn't need to be pointed in that direction. Because of that I never tried the join-tenna solution.

Yeah... that was my hope too, but without two antennas, I can't get KCPQ at all.

Paul

KOMO Status

I figured it's about time for me to jump in and update the group about some of the problems that KOMO has been experiencing. It has been very frustrating for me, and the whole KOMO engineering staff.

First, here is a little history about KOMO-DT:

KOMO first broadcast high definition programming in Seattle on January 20, 1997 using a low power experimental transmitter from our Queen Anne tower.

The material that was broadcast was post produced in 1080i (actually 1035i) by HD Vision in Dallas and consisted of material that we shot around the area (with borrowed Sony equipment) combined with some video provided by HD Vision. We built a High Definition demonstration theatre to show to visitors. The universal initial response was "when can I get it?" Then after thinking for a few minutes..."how much will it cost?"

To the best of our knowledge, we were the third station in the country to transmit HDTV after WHD (the industry model station in Washington, DC) and WRAL in Raleigh, NC. At the very least, KOMO was first on the west coast, about two weeks before KCTS began their experimental operation.

In March of 1998, we were finally able to get high power digital transmission equipment delivered and was initially transmitting on channel 38 with 350 kilowatts of average effective radiated power. The power was increased to 810 kw as soon as the manufacturer was able to deliver the equipment. The first High Definition broadcasts were in 1080i but we received our 720p encoder [in late October 1998] and have since been transmitting local high definition programs and an upconverted digital version of our regular NTSC programming when HDTV is not available from the network.

Our first live HDTV network feed was the John Glenn Space Shuttle broadcast Thursday, October 29, 1998, which we carried in 720p format.

We have found that the downside of being an early adopter is that we had to purchase the only encoding equipment available at the time...not much beyond prototypes. We are still trying to resolve some of the issues that have been cured in later generations.

Some of the problems found include hookups that sounded right when the equipment was installed, but later required reconfiguration to work with most receivers...factory mis-wired equipment (also typical of first generation gear)...and satellite interference. In trying to resolve the interference, some other unrelated problems were introduced.

We believe that the interference to the ABC network satellite receiver on 4 GHz is coming from high-power airborne radar operating on 3.9 GHz. It shows up as a momentary picture and audio loss, re-occurring three or four times 6-10 seconds apart, then disappearing for a half hour or so before coming back. The interference has been minimized by installing a new receiver and two new LNBs. I saw one breakup sequence last evening during Monday Night Football, but the balance of the game was perfect here. Hold your breath.

A word about audio delay...

Some receivers seem to have a problem with audio delayed from video by a very noticeable margin. If you have this, try switching away from the channel long enough for the picture to lock up, then back to 4-1 (38). If the audio is now in sync, there is a problem in the receiver. One service shop recommends pulling the line plug for a half hour or so...then plug it back in, turn it on and let the receiver processor reboot. This will cure a lot of ills. Early models of Samsung and Mitsubishi are known to have this problem.

Sorry for the long post, guys...I just wanted to get this out on the table.

Regards,

Don

Don-

Great Post! Thanks for your explainations of everything.

One thing I didn't notice in there was the issue of transmission power. Are you transmitting as powerfully as you are licensed to? If not, do you intend to increase power at any time in the future? Compared to other stations on QA, I have the most problems recieving your station, but that very likely could be my equipment.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

brownnet

brownnet -

KOMO-DT transmits with 810 KW ERP, the maximum power that the FCC allowed for our channel here. Seattle is above the FCC's "Line A', which means that they must coordinate all new licenses with the Canadians. There is an assigned channel 38 in B.C. I don't remember the city right now.

During the power shortage a year ago last summer, KOMO applied for and got Special Temporary Authority (STA) to operate at half power to do our part for energy conservation. Full power was restored when the shortage was over.

One of the nice things about a dual IOT transmitter is that one of the two transmitters can be turned off for service, if necessary. That is how the power reduction was accomplished.

It is possible that when all this is over, we could apply for an increase to 1 MW. However, the difference is less than 1 db, hardly worth while. Moving the receiving antenna a few inches can make far more difference.

Don

brownnet -

One other thought...

If you are receiving KING and KIRO ok, your reception problems most likely are caused by multipath interference (ghosting) rather than lack of transmitting power. A more directional antenna could help, or even moving your existing antenna to find a 'sweet spot' could make the difference.

Don.

Hey, Don!

Nice to hear from you. I knew you were still at work on these issues all along.

See my longer response in the Seattle Comcast forum thread.

Thanks again for your persistence and ongoing support.

Do you have an HDTV on your boat yet so you can "work" on the water? (he chuckles)

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
KOMO Status

I figured it's about time for me to jump in and update the group about some of the problems that KOMO has been experiencing. It has been very frustrating for me, and the whole KOMO engineering staff.

First, here is a little history about KOMO-DT:

KOMO first broadcast high definition programming in Seattle on January 20, 1997 using a low power experimental transmitter from our Queen Anne tower.

The material that was broadcast was post produced in 1080i (actually 1035i) by HD Vision in Dallas and consisted of material that we shot around the area (with borrowed Sony equipment) combined with some video provided by HD Vision. We built a High Definition demonstration theatre to show to visitors. The universal initial response was "when can I get it?" Then after thinking for a few minutes..."how much will it cost?"

To the best of our knowledge, we were the third station in the country to transmit HDTV after WHD (the industry model station in Washington, DC) and WRAL in Raleigh, NC. At the very least, KOMO was first on the west coast, about two weeks before KCTS began their experimental operation.

In March of 1998, we were finally able to get high power digital transmission equipment delivered and was initially transmitting on channel 38 with 350 kilowatts of average effective radiated power. The power was increased to 810 kw as soon as the manufacturer was able to deliver the equipment. The first High Definition broadcasts were in 1080i but we received our 720p encoder [in late October 1998] and have since been transmitting local high definition programs and an upconverted digital version of our regular NTSC programming when HDTV is not available from the network.

Our first live HDTV network feed was the John Glenn Space Shuttle broadcast Thursday, October 29, 1998, which we carried in 720p format.

We have found that the downside of being an early adopter is that we had to purchase the only encoding equipment available at the time...not much beyond prototypes. We are still trying to resolve some of the issues that have been cured in later generations.

Some of the problems found include hookups that sounded right when the equipment was installed, but later required reconfiguration to work with most receivers...factory mis-wired equipment (also typical of first generation gear)...and satellite interference. In trying to resolve the interference, some other unrelated problems were introduced.

We believe that the interference to the ABC network satellite receiver on 4 GHz is coming from high-power airborne radar operating on 3.9 GHz. It shows up as a momentary picture and audio loss, re-occurring three or four times 6-10 seconds apart, then disappearing for a half hour or so before coming back. The interference has been minimized by installing a new receiver and two new LNBs. I saw one breakup sequence last evening during Monday Night Football, but the balance of the game was perfect here. Hold your breath.

A word about audio delay...

Some receivers seem to have a problem with audio delayed from video by a very noticeable margin. If you have this, try switching away from the channel long enough for the picture to lock up, then back to 4-1 (38). If the audio is now in sync, there is a problem in the receiver. One service shop recommends pulling the line plug for a half hour or so...then plug it back in, turn it on and let the receiver processor reboot. This will cure a lot of ills. Early models of Samsung and Mitsubishi are known to have this problem.

Sorry for the long post, guys...I just wanted to get this out on the table.

Regards,

Don

Don
Thanks for the information.
I would like to add another bit of information to the KOMO effort. When they first started transmission, they had a mandate, or request, from ABC to map the general Puget Sound area for signal strength. They used a van like they use for field reports, a big 1ton long body Ford with a telescoping antenna. The difference was there was a $50,000 decoder/scope/analyzer and HD Sony TV in there, among other test instruments. One of the engineers was Chris McGahrgee, who explained it all. (Sorry Chris, if I misspelled it!) When you started those broadcasts in the fall of 98, I was installing the HD antennas for Magnolia. In Everett, we had a devil of a time getting KOMO. Most other stores were coming in pretty good. I didn't even have my HD analyzer yet, didn't even know I needed one! Chris was kind enough to come all the way out there with his truck to help. I was envious of the ability to drive to a site, park, and then hit a button and you instantly had a 30-40ft antenna ! After seeing his results, which were good, and his scope, I realized this was a whole new game. He was using a small UHF/VHF Radio Shack antenna, too! I had the big Radio Shack Yagi on the roof, about 10-15ft higher and had a lot of problems dialing it in on KOMO, still. Later, when I had my meter, I realized it was signal level being to weak. My trusty analog couldn't begin to correctly read it. After that, Chris showed his map of all the places he'd been measuring, and the results. What was impressive was the consistency he got, terrain being factored in, of course.
Since then, I've heard Chris moved on to another department. I've contacted them on other occasions and found they were always helpfull.
Glad to hear you're carrying on the tradition!

On another note, the audio delays are not really a re-syncing problem, as you would think. Some early receivers, Panasonics and the Hughes/Mitsubishsi/Toshiba's, would do what you describe when they got hot or were failing. Once replaced, they were fine. The receivers now haven't done that for years. I get customer questions on it all the time. I agree, the amount of delay varies somewhat with the make/model. I guess I find it more noticeable than most, being an old TV tech. What I can't understand is why you don't simply delay the audio so it will sync up. Obviously you would do it if it were that easy, so if it's possible, could you elaborate on the complexities?

Last, if you ever want a real challenge, I would be glad to show you some locations on the east side of Magnolia, looking right at the towers, where I get this strange soft sawtooth pattern from you. Has about 6 to 8 "humps" about 3-5db high, spaced across the sweep. No matter what antenna I try, or how I missaim it, the signal will not lock. Levels are fine. Tried anywhere from zero to +20db. And whenever I run into that pattern elsewhere, I know it's hopeless. If you have the time, maybe after the holiday rush, I would love to meet with you over there and at least find out what is causing it. I thought at first it might be because the antenna is located on the east side of the tower and signal is going through the legs of it, but at some other locations on Magnolia, it comes in fine. KING and KIRO come in fine where possible, and they also have antennas on the east side of their towers.

Don't worry about long posts. Most of us are very interested in keeping our customers happy, or our TV's humming along. Anytime there's a change, we would love to hear about it.
Thanks again!

Dan

Don, great to hear from you! I bet it was challenging tracking down the audio/video glitch problem to local airborn radar! I must admit that ABC's programs recorded on my HR10-250 HiDef DirecTivo haven't had any issues so far this week. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Was also pleased by your history lesson, and Dan's comments as well. The "$50,000 decoder/scope/analyzer" that Dan mentioned was actually an HP89440A Vector Signal Analyzer that was designed and manufactured in Lake Stevens. My team was excited to host Don and other KOMO engineers at HP's Lake Stevens site back in the "early days" and be a part of the first Seattle HDTV over-the-air tests.

Thanks for bringing back some fond memories!

Originally posted by SteveCoug
I noticed that the HD picture on ESPNHD (Dish Satelite) and the OTA HD picture from KCPQ 13 was amazingly clear. But today when I switched back and forth between the Sehawks game in HD on KCPQ 13-1 and the NFL game in HD on KIRO 7-1, the HD picture quality on KIRO 7-1 seemed to be "softer" than the sharp detailed picture on ESPNHD and KCPQ 13-1.

PQ varies from game to game, even on the same network. As a general rule, CBS will be better than Fox, but this weekend Fox was about as good as Fox gets, and the CBS game (Packers) was about as bad as CBS gets. There's lots of discussion of this in the HD Programming forum, but it also varies from city to city.

I've never seen ESPNHD, but ABC's MNF is usually pretty good (although personally I think they raise the light levels to make it look better--which I find annoying).

Don and Dan... great posts. Might be old news for some but I find the information on current status informative and the history helps provide some context.

Regarding KOMO... out here in the wilds of Kitsap County (near Silverdale), KOMO signal strength is far less than either KIRO or KING. I was confused about this until I emailed KOMO and was told that where I'm at is a known null spot in the radiation pattern, apparently due to the way the antennas are placed on the tower.

Don... any update on that? To the best of your knowledge, is there anything that will change in the semi-near future?

Paul

Originally posted by DanKurts
Don
Thanks for the information.
I would like to add another bit of information to the KOMO effort. When they first started transmission, they had a mandate, or request, from ABC to map the general Puget Sound area for signal strength. They used a van like they use for field reports, a big 1ton long body Ford with a telescoping antenna. The difference was there was a $50,000 decoder/scope/analyzer and HD Sony TV in there, among other test instruments. One of the engineers was Chris McGahrgee, who explained it all. (Sorry Chris, if I misspelled it!) When you started those broadcasts in the fall of 98, I was installing the HD antennas for Magnolia. In Everett, we had a devil of a time getting KOMO. Most other stores were coming in pretty good. I didn't even have my HD analyzer yet, didn't even know I needed one! Chris was kind enough to come all the way out there with his truck to help. I was envious of the ability to drive to a site, park, and then hit a button and you instantly had a 30-40ft antenna ! After seeing his results, which were good, and his scope, I realized this was a whole new game. He was using a small UHF/VHF Radio Shack antenna, too! I had the big Radio Shack Yagi on the roof, about 10-15ft higher and had a lot of problems dialing it in on KOMO, still. Later, when I had my meter, I realized it was signal level being to weak. My trusty analog couldn't begin to correctly read it. After that, Chris showed his map of all the places he'd been measuring, and the results. What was impressive was the consistency he got, terrain being factored in, of course.
Since then, I've heard Chris moved on to another department. I've contacted them on other occasions and found they were always helpfull.
Glad to hear you're carrying on the tradition!

On another note, the audio delays are not really a re-syncing problem, as you would think. Some early receivers, Panasonics and the Hughes/Mitsubishsi/Toshiba's, would do what you describe when they got hot or were failing. Once replaced, they were fine. The receivers now haven't done that for years. I get customer questions on it all the time. I agree, the amount of delay varies somewhat with the make/model. I guess I find it more noticeable than most, being an old TV tech. What I can't understand is why you don't simply delay the audio so it will sync up. Obviously you would do it if it were that easy, so if it's possible, could you elaborate on the complexities?

Last, if you ever want a real challenge, I would be glad to show you some locations on the east side of Magnolia, looking right at the towers, where I get this strange soft sawtooth pattern from you. Has about 6 to 8 "humps" about 3-5db high, spaced across the sweep. No matter what antenna I try, or how I missaim it, the signal will not lock. Levels are fine. Tried anywhere from zero to +20db. And whenever I run into that pattern elsewhere, I know it's hopeless. If you have the time, maybe after the holiday rush, I would love to meet with you over there and at least find out what is causing it. I thought at first it might be because the antenna is located on the east side of the tower and signal is going through the legs of it, but at some other locations on Magnolia, it comes in fine. KING and KIRO come in fine where possible, and they also have antennas on the east side of their towers.

Don't worry about long posts. Most of us are very interested in keeping our customers happy, or our TV's humming along. Anytime there's a change, we would love to hear about it.
Thanks again!

Dan

Hi Dan -

Chris is still in the Engineering department maintaining all this digital gear. We all learned a great deal from the survey that was made with that truck. Especially, as you noted, it is a new ballgame. For those of us who cut our teeth on image orthicons it was like starting all over.

As to carrying on the tradition, actually it is the other way around. I retired from Fisher five years ago, but was retained to be a consultant on DTV transmission/reception issues among other things. I go in for several hours every week, check on things, speak to old friends, then head home complaining about what a hard week it was. Chris and the others are carrying on the tradition...too busy to spend much time posting on AVS Forum.

One of the problems trying to zero in on the 'lip-sync' issue was knowing which set was right to use as a standard. Using a Sony receiver in the maintenance shop as a standard turned out not to be reliable. Adjusting it to another set threw the first one out. To compound the problem, my Samsung SIR-T160 and my HiPix computer card receiver could not agree. One would be right on, the other off.

Had we not tried to do too much in the beginning with DD5.1 and stuck to Pro Logic, we would not have run into problems.

The network is delivered to KOMO via C-band satellite in a serial bit stream. That stream has to be de-muxed to separate out the multiple audio streams...Pro Logic, DD5.1, SAP and other non-program bits. Re-muxing it back together is where we ran into problems. The video sails right through the switcher and the audio goes through de-muxing, switching and re-muxing, each adding additional delay. After an all-hands-on-deck effort, I think we are getting there. At least we know how to get there.

Complicating all this was the fact that the facility was built very early on, when there was little experience to know just how all this should go together. We now have some experience and would do some things differently.

The spectrum analyzer 'humps' that you speak of are quite common in an environment of lots of multipath. The multipath could be coming from reflections off buildings, mountains, almost anything reflective, or it could be from the other towers on Queen Anne. There is a possibility that the transmitting antenna pattern distortion could be making it worse. If the receiving antenna happens to be in a null and nearby reflectors are in peaks, it is going to result in severe multipath.

The transmitting pattern distortion is unavoidable when the antenna is mounted on the side of a tower. The location of the antenna on the tower was computer optimized by Dr. Oded Bendov of Dielectric Communications, the manufacturer of both channel 4 and channel 38 antennas. The orientation, the spacing from the tower and the location in relation to the tower members were chosen to minimize the effect. The worst null was purposely place NNW up the straits so as to affect the least number of viewers.

The solution will come when the FCC requires channel 4 to go off the air. Then the UHF antenna will then be placed on top of the tower, in the clear with no obstructions. In the meantime, channel 4 is still the 'bread and butter' that helps pay for all these high-tech toys.

Let's keep in touch, Dan. It would be interesting to compare stories.

Don

Originally posted by litzdog911
Don, great to hear from you! I bet it was challenging tracking down the audio/video glitch problem to local airborn radar! I must admit that ABC's programs recorded on my HR10-250 HiDef DirecTivo haven't had any issues so far this week. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Was also pleased by your history lesson, and Dan's comments as well. The "$50,000 decoder/scope/analyzer" that Dan mentioned was actually an HP89440A Vector Signal Analyzer that was designed and manufactured in Lake Stevens. My team was excited to host Don and other KOMO engineers at HP's Lake Stevens site back in the "early days" and be a part of the first Seattle HDTV over-the-air tests.

Thanks for bringing back some fond memories!

Hey, litzdog911, it's great to hear from you.

Your help with the Vector Signal Analyzer was greatly appreciated. My memory about the 89440A was that the model number more closely reflected the sales price than the $50k that Dan mentioned. At any rate, it was about the only test instrument available at that time to verify 8VSB signal performance.

That was an exciting time...being on the absolute cutting edge of 8VSB transmission. That's one reason this 'lip-sync' issue has been so disturbing to me. We should have gotten it right by now.

Don

Originally posted by pecocus
Don and Dan... great posts. Might be old news for some but I find the information on current status informative and the history helps provide some context.

Regarding KOMO... out here in the wilds of Kitsap County (near Silverdale), KOMO signal strength is far less than either KIRO or KING. I was confused about this until I emailed KOMO and was told that where I'm at is a known null spot in the radiation pattern, apparently due to the way the antennas are placed on the tower.

Don... any update on that? To the best of your knowledge, is there anything that will change in the semi-near future?

Paul

Hi Paul -

Silverdale should be far enough south to not be in the null. It is very sharp and lies in a line that falls right across the apartments near the Shilshole marina. In taking measurements I found that usable signals returned a few blocks north and south of there. You could just have some multipath interference.

Remember the the 'signal strength' indicator that most receivers use to show the signal actually indicates the receiver's ability to demodulate the digital signal in the face of multipath and/or noise. If the signal actually is too weak, the noise will be too high. The only real test is to look at the received signal with a spectrum analyzer to see how flat the response is across the 6 MHz bandpass. Generally, I consider that if the deepest notch in the bandpass is more than 16 db above the noise floor, the receiver should be able to decode it.

As I told Dan above, the channel 38 antenna will be moved to the top of the tower, in the clear, when channel 4 goes away by FCC mandate. Presently, congress is considering various timetables, including the most likely...2009.

Don

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
Hi Paul -

Silverdale should be far enough south to not be in the null. It is very sharp and lies in a line that falls right across the apartments near the Shilshole marina. In taking measurements I found that usable signals returned a few blocks north and south of there. You could just have some multipath interference.

Remember the the 'signal strength' indicator that most receivers use to show the signal actually indicates the receiver's ability to demodulate the digital signal in the face of multipath and/or noise. If the signal actually is too weak, the noise will be too high. The only real test is to look at the received signal with a spectrum analyzer to see how flat the response is across the 6 MHz bandpass. Generally, I consider that if the deepest notch in the bandpass is more than 16 db above the noise floor, the receiver should be able to decode it.

As I told Dan above, the channel 38 antenna will be moved to the top of the tower, in the clear, when channel 4 goes away by FCC mandate. Presently, congress is considering various timetables, including the most likely...2009.

Don

Hey Don... thanks for the reply. :)

I completely get what you are saying about the meter actually being an SNR meter (I'm an ex-Navy submarine Radioman). What I should have said is that, for whatever reason, while the SNR for almost all other stations is high enough to provide a watchable signal, KOMO's is not. I've just been baffled by it since the towers are all in the same general location. As you correctly point out, multipath is a real possibility, but I'm assuming it would effect all channels. Or is multipath frequency specific?


Paul

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
The worst null was purposely place NNW up the straits so as to affect the least number of viewers.
:mad:

Originally posted by pecocus
Hey Don... thanks for the reply. :)

I completely get what you are saying about the meter actually being an SNR meter (I'm an ex-Navy submarine Radioman). What I should have said is that, for whatever reason, while the SNR for almost all other stations is high enough to provide a watchable signal, KOMO's is not. I've just been baffled by it since the towers are all in the same general location. As you correctly point out, multipath is a real possibility, but I'm assuming it would effect all channels. Or is multipath frequency specific?


Paul

Certainly frequency is part of it, but there are many variables at work. A real eye-opener is to drive down the street while watching the display on a spectrum analyzer. In an area of high multipath, notches are constantly moving from left to right, and right to left as the reflections alternately sum and subtract.

I have a handheld signal strength meter and spectrum analyzer that really shows what is going on. In some locations, it takes a movement of only inches or feet to get an acceptable signal.

Probably the most important lesson that I have learned is that you can't just plant an antenna at a convenient spot on the roof and expect to get a usable signal on all channels. At times I have found the best reception at a few feet above ground level, with the antenna backed up against a building or dense vegetation to block reflections from the rear. In those cases, putting the antenna up high and in the clear allows it to pick up more multipath.

Don

Hey gang!

Anyone else see video and audio dropouts on KOMO-DT tonight in the last half of LOST?

I saw about three occurences, but I was in and out of the room so there could have been more. just like the ones we have seen before.

Don, I seem to be hearing a lot more pops during audio switching to/from local commercials. I don't recall hearing pops at that time before--maybe my memory is just bad? At least I heard them while watching LOST live via my HD TiVo tonight. I was watching live because I was curious about whether there would be issues or not. If it would help, I could watch the recording and identify exactly what time each occurred.

I just noticed that the audio on KIRO-DT for 11 PM news is broadcast in DD 5.1, and the news voices are center channel and the background music is L+R (and maybe some surround--not obvious). I wonder if they are mapping decoded Dolby Pro Logic II source audio to the appropriate channels for DD 5.1 transmission. My A/V receiver is in pure DD 5.1 mode, Pro Logic II is not activated for the KIRO-DT audio. Commercials also have what sounds like PL II audio decoded and mapped to the DD 5.1 discrete channels.

Anyone know for sure?

Don, et al
Thanks for explaining the sound problem. I wasn't aware it was such a hassle. You would think someone would hang an "audio sync pulse or bit" somewhere in all that data that could be universally locked into, like analog sets have. Of course, that would be too easy....!

Another bit of information. I found that if there's more than 10db of delta on the 6mhz sweep, most decoders won't lock. Sometimes it can be even less than that if it's really choppy. Big, easy gully's or peaks that ramp up/down on the sweep can be fairly large, but again, not much more than 10db. Every now and then I will see a receiver that does amazing things with very ugly signals, and then the next time I run across the same model, it doesn't work as well. There's obviously a lot tolerance in the quality.

I would love to know the basic location of those apartments in Shilshole you mentioned where the deepest null path ran across.
Was the polar plot that's on the FCC site made from actual transmission data, or a "guesstimate" required for filing?

Also, curious as to what brand of meter you're using for your hand-held measurements. I'm trying to find one that will read noise level. Lately, I've run into problems with these new Tivo HD recceivers. They just won't lock onto some marginal signals I know other brands have no problem with. I can only assume it's more noise or a BER problem. My satellite meter, a sat9520, reads all that, but won't measure HD. The Textronics I tried and my Sadelco aren't real true noise measurements.

Thanks for all the updates.
Dan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pecocus
There's also the possibility that your antenna is just not good enough at that frequency. It's one of the reasons I use 5 different antennas. And the antenna location could be in just the right spot where you're getting a small multipath null for that channel. That's why it's important to try moving it 6" to 8", in any direction, to work around it. As Don said, very small distance changes give big results, good and bad. When I did the Magnolia store in Silverdale, we used a junk antenna, at first, just weeks after KOMO came on the air. It actually worked quite well. Later, after I got my analyzer meter, we swapped it out for a better antenna, but KOMO still came in fine. From there, that hill east of the mall is right in the way and loaded with trees, too. I don't think their power levels to the west are your real problem. Did you ever have quarque or I run a plot for your address?
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
pecocus
There's also the possibility that your antenna is just not good enough at that frequency. It's one of the reasons I use 5 different antennas. And the antenna location could be in just the right spot where you're getting a small multipath null for that channel. That's why it's important to try moving it 6" to 8", in any direction, to work around it. As Don said, very small distance changes give big results, good and bad. When I did the Magnolia store in Silverdale, we used a junk antenna, at first, just weeks after KOMO came on the air. It actually worked quite well. Later, after I got my analyzer meter, we swapped it out for a better antenna, but KOMO still came in fine. From there, that hill east of the mall is right in the way and loaded with trees, too. I don't think their power levels to the west are your real problem. Did you ever have quarque or I run a plot for your address?
Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the info. I have tried moving the antenna maybe a foot in different directions. You are correct that it makes a difference, just (in this case) not in a positive way. Quarque ran a plot for me and said it was fine. If you're willing to double check, I'm in a two story house at 13261 Sunday Valley Lane, Poulsbo, 98370.

Our lot does have a lot of trees around it so I'm thinking all you folks are probably right about saying multipath is the issue. Just have to figure out how to beat it. :)

Paul

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Hey gang!

Anyone else see video and audio dropouts on KOMO-DT tonight in the last half of LOST?

I saw about three occurences, but I was in and out of the room so there could have been more. just like the ones we have seen before.

Don, I seem to be hearing a lot more pops during audio switching to/from local commercials. I don't recall hearing pops at that time before--maybe my memory is just bad? At least I heard them while watching LOST live via my HD TiVo tonight. I was watching live because I was curious about whether there would be issues or not. If it would help, I could watch the recording and identify exactly what time each occurred.

-------------------------------

I saw some of the dropouts as well. It fit the pattern that I described before....4 or 5 dropouts spaced 6-10 seconds apart, then nothing for another half hour or so. I understand that there is an airborne radar picket flying over the Sound at all times. The pattern would indicate that it is flying a 30 minute circuit. No one in the military will comment one way or the other.

The pops occur when the bit stream is interrupted by switching to local. The receiver has to re-sync. It is my impression that each receiver brand reacts somewhat differently. I hear it on some receivers more than others. The maintenance techs are trying to come up with the digital equivalent of the analog frame synchronizer to solve the pops.

Don

Originally posted by DanKurts
Don, et al
Thanks for explaining the sound problem. I wasn't aware it was such a hassle. You would think someone would hang an "audio sync pulse or bit" somewhere in all that data that could be universally locked into, like analog sets have. Of course, that would be too easy....!

Another bit of information. I found that if there's more than 10db of delta on the 6mhz sweep, most decoders won't lock. Sometimes it can be even less than that if it's really choppy. Big, easy gully's or peaks that ramp up/down on the sweep can be fairly large, but again, not much more than 10db. Every now and then I will see a receiver that does amazing things with very ugly signals, and then the next time I run across the same model, it doesn't work as well. There's obviously a lot tolerance in the quality.

I would love to know the basic location of those apartments in Shilshole you mentioned where the deepest null path ran across.
Was the polar plot that's on the FCC site made from actual transmission data, or a "guesstimate" required for filing?

Also, curious as to what brand of meter you're using for your hand-held measurements. I'm trying to find one that will read noise level. Lately, I've run into problems with these new Tivo HD recceivers. They just won't lock onto some marginal signals I know other brands have no problem with. I can only assume it's more noise or a BER problem. My satellite meter, a sat9520, reads all that, but won't measure HD. The Textronics I tried and my Sadelco aren't real true noise measurements.

Thanks for all the updates.
Dan
~

pecocus
There's also the possibility that your antenna is just not good enough at that frequency. It's one of the reasons I use 5 different antennas. And the antenna location could be in just the right spot where you're getting a small multipath null for that channel. That's why it's important to try moving it 6" to 8", in any direction, to work around it. As Don said, very small distance changes give big results, good and bad. When I did the Magnolia store in Silverdale, we used a junk antenna, at first, just weeks after KOMO came on the air. It actually worked quite well. Later, after I got my analyzer meter, we swapped it out for a better antenna, but KOMO still came in fine. From there, that hill east of the mall is right in the way and loaded with trees, too. I don't think their power levels to the west are your real problem. Did you ever have quarque or I run a plot for your address?
Dan

Good morning, Dan -

There are several different schemes out there that allow for automatic sound synchronization, but they require information to be encoded at the source in order to keep everything in time. Most of the network primetime scripted programs are produced by outside studios that are not owned by the networks. So far, no one is encoding the meta data that I am aware of.

I don't recall the name of the apartments near Shilshole, but they are the two large apartment buildings that are located between the marina and Ray's Boathouse. I was called by one of the occupants who was receiving every signal except KOMO. At first I was suspicious of the Terk TV-100 antenna that he was using. My experience is that the Terk just does not work in this area. I could see the top of the channel 4 antenna but could not see a wiggle on the spectrum analyzer. Several blocks north the signal came back, and across the ship canal I found the signal again.

The antenna pattern shown in the FCC records is the pattern created on the antenna range by the manufacturer. It was provided to the Commission with the application for a construction permit. Until the antenna is mounted in place on the tower, the final pattern is pure speculation. Dr. Bendov can come close with his computer modeling, but it isn't exactly what I anticipated.

My handheld meter was manufactured by Wintel. I never heard of it before and it isn't terribly expensive...on the order of $600-700. I picked up mine used. It does not give an absolute reading of the noise level, and I suspect that the noise that I see on the display is at least partially generated internally. I have had enough experience with it that I can recognize the approximate threshold of receivable signal.

Don

KIRO TV:

What is the status on the logjam with Comcast? My wife and I have drastically curtailed our KIRO watching ever since we switched to Comcast. We'd like to come back, but we're discovering that CSI's beauty is mostly skin deep and a fuzzy 4:3 image isn't doing it for us ;)

Originally posted by pecocus
Dan,

Thanks for the info. I have tried moving the antenna maybe a foot in different directions. You are correct that it makes a difference, just (in this case) not in a positive way. Quarque ran a plot for me and said it was fine. If you're willing to double check, I'm in a two story house at 13261 Sunday Valley Lane, Poulsbo, 98370.

Our lot does have a lot of trees around it so I'm thinking all you folks are probably right about saying multipath is the issue. Just have to figure out how to beat it. :)

Paul

Paul
The location is great. It's the trees and/or your antenna. A long yagi works best in those situations, like the 4248 or equivalent. Do NOT use a preamp.
If possible, try to thread the needle through the trees by finding the best view through them. Multipath is not your problem, multi-blocking trees are. You only have, at most, a 1/4 mile of trees to go through before it's line of sight. What antenna are you using?
Dan

Originally posted by DanKurts
Paul
The location is great. It's the trees and/or your antenna. A long yagi works best in those situations, like the 4248 or equivalent. Do NOT use a preamp.
If possible, try to thread the needle through the trees by finding the best view through them. Multipath is not your problem, multi-blocking trees are. You only have, at most, a 1/4 mile of trees to go through before it's line of sight. What antenna are you using?
Dan

I'm using a 4221 in my attic. I'm kind of stuck in the attic... outside mounting is not an option.

Paul

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
Good morning, Dan -

There are several different schemes out there that allow for automatic sound synchronization, but they require information to be encoded at the source in order to keep everything in time. Most of the network primetime scripted programs are produced by outside studios that are not owned by the networks. So far, no one is encoding the meta data that I am aware of.

I don't recall the name of the apartments near Shilshole, but they are the two large apartment buildings that are located between the marina and Ray's Boathouse. I was called by one of the occupants who was receiving every signal except KOMO. At first I was suspicious of the Terk TV-100 antenna that he was using. My experience is that the Terk just does not work in this area. I could see the top of the channel 4 antenna but could not see a wiggle on the spectrum analyzer. Several blocks north the signal came back, and across the ship canal I found the signal again.

The antenna pattern shown in the FCC records is the pattern created on the antenna range by the manufacturer. It was provided to the Commission with the application for a construction permit. Until the antenna is mounted in place on the tower, the final pattern is pure speculation. Dr. Bendov can come close with his computer modeling, but it isn't exactly what I anticipated.

My handheld meter was manufactured by Wintel. I never heard of it before and it isn't terribly expensive...on the order of $600-700. I picked up mine used. It does not give an absolute reading of the noise level, and I suspect that the noise that I see on the display is at least partially generated internally. I have had enough experience with it that I can recognize the approximate threshold of receivable signal.

Don

Don
Tried looking up the Wintel, only found satellite receiver equipment. I use a Sadelco. Not perfect, but like yours, I'm used to what it will do and show.
I'll check out the apartments and make a note of it. Curiously, we had a forum member that lives in Indianola that was having problems, and that looks right on the line....hmmm....
I've noticed the pops in sound on KOMO and KING when they switch back and forth from field to studio. Mostly see it on Motorola cable boxes. Wondered what was going on.
Thanks for the updates. Looking forward to your posts. Good to have an inside track on wassup !
If you have any viewer calling you with a problem, call me and I can give you a quick assessment of their location.
Dan
206-794-3993

Originally posted by pecocus
I'm using a 4221 in my attic. I'm kind of stuck in the attic... outside mounting is not an option.

Paul

Paul
Ahhhh, that makes sense.
Well, if the situation changes, now you know what to do!
Dan

I just stumbled on this forum and by coincidence have just experienced this same problem with my Dish 921 OTA reciever. I live on Sunset Hill near the intersection of NW 59th & 34th NW. I have a DB-4 antenna without attenuator or amplification on my roof and pull over a 100 signal for every UHF station in the area except of course KOMO, which will not register or lock at all. Any ideas on a workaround (I don't think I can wait till 2009)...Thanks!...Gary

I would first try moving your antenna to a different location on your roof to see if you're in a node. You might also be getting completly blanked by multipath. You might next try a higher gain (i.e. more directional) antenna to try and reduce multipath.

I would have DanKurts run your address and see what your location looks like.

Originally posted by GGG
I just stumbled on this forum and by coincidence have just experienced this same problem with my Dish 921 OTA reciever. I live on Sunset Hill near the intersection of NW 59th & 34th NW. I have a DB-4 antenna without attenuator or amplification on my roof and pull over a 100 signal for every UHF station in the area except of course KOMO, which will not register or lock at all. Any ideas on a workaround (I don't think I can wait till 2009)...Thanks!...Gary

I don't have an answer to your question, but maybe you could answer mine. Are you happy with your Dish 921? And, do you have to subscribe to the Dish HD package in order to receive your OTA HD channels?

Love my 921! Got the package HD in a box deal from dish with a 34' crt (RCA) hd for $999 installed, delivered and even including a new dpp 44 switch replacing my old 34 switch. Picture & ota tuner is awesome...In 4 weeks of ownership I have had to reboot once, so the cries of woe re: 921's you hear on the D* message boards are a bit melodramatic. I do like my 721 better (no $5 VOD fee and has a nicer pip function). Bottom line...you need an 811 or 921 for HD from D*. Costco also has them for less than $500. You do need to sign up for the HD package for a year , but they do give you 6 months at half price, make sure to have D* do the install...

Originally posted by GGG
I just stumbled on this forum and by coincidence have just experienced this same problem with my Dish 921 OTA reciever. I live on Sunset Hill near the intersection of NW 59th & 34th NW. I have a DB-4 antenna without attenuator or amplification on my roof and pull over a 100 signal for every UHF station in the area except of course KOMO, which will not register or lock at all. Any ideas on a workaround (I don't think I can wait till 2009)...Thanks!...Gary

Gary
If you're getting good signal "numbers", gain is NOT the problem. That area is HOT. If anything, try a RatShack attenuator set at half, and then move the location, as well as direction, although direction with that antenna is not critical. It's very possible you are in that dead zone Don described. I do have good signal at 72nd & 33rdNW, so there's still a chance, and I have antennas just on the other side of the Locks on Magnolia....
Experimentation and patience is going to be the drill. Height is not important, as long as you see over or around your neighbor or trees, etc. Of the three towers on the QA hill, 4 is the middle one, so the fact you're getting 5 & 7 says obstructions are not the major issue. Just be sure you keep an eye out for them as you move the location around.
Dan

Originally posted by xkode2002
KIRO TV: I understand your feelings and I also wish that we could get this straightened out. Unfortunatly for all of us this is caught at a corporate level between Cox Broadcasting (Our mother company) and Comcast. Cox also owns a lot of cable in other areas of the country.

What is the status on the logjam with Comcast? My wife and I have drastically curtailed our KIRO watching ever since we switched to Comcast. We'd like to come back, but we're discovering that CSI's beauty is mostly skin deep and a fuzzy 4:3 image isn't doing it for us ;)

Originally posted by DanKurts
Gary
If you're getting good signal "numbers", gain is NOT the problem. That area is HOT. If anything, try a RatShack attenuator set at half, and then move the location, as well as direction, although direction with that antenna is not critical. It's very possible you are in that dead zone Don described. I do have good signal at 72nd & 33rdNW, so there's still a chance, and I have antennas just on the other side of the Locks on Magnolia....
Experimentation and patience is going to be the drill. Height is not important, as long as you see over or around your neighbor or trees, etc. Of the three towers on the QA hill, 4 is the middle one, so the fact you're getting 5 & 7 says obstructions are not the major issue. Just be sure you keep an eye out for them as you move the location around.
Dan

Hey Dan, took your advise, got the attenuator, moved the antenna, still nada, nothing, on komo, was able to boost my signal numbers on all other channels which is cool. I am in a very close line from the tower as the guy on on seaview ave. Was wondering if I used an extra bowtie I have and pointed it at komo from a totally different location on the roof and combined it with the db-4 if it might help? Any other ideas?

Originally posted by GGG
Hey Dan, took your advise, got the attenuator, moved the antenna, still nada, nothing, on komo, was able to boost my signal numbers on all other channels which is cool. I am in a very close line from the tower as the guy on on seaview ave. Was wondering if I used an extra bowtie I have and pointed it at komo from a totally different location on the roof and combined it with the db-4 if it might help? Any other ideas?


GGG
You would do just as well to simply move the antenna that's working now. Combining them will only get you into trouble. Your actual signal level went down, but the signal to noise ratio went up, as your numbers show. Patience is the key. Start with the farthest point North and East on your property. Do not worry about anything but KOMO. You can always dial in the others later. I would bet they'll be fine. When measuring a new spot, give the decoder a good 30 seconds to a minute to check it. Even if it only works a little, make a note of the spot and number, and go to the next. Pretty soon, you'll have a map that will give you some clues as to which way to go. 6 to 8" in any direction is worth another test. It can really be that fussy, trust me!
Dan

I watched Monday Night Football last night on KOMO HD and it looked fine to me.

I've been reading posts on this thread about the lousy quality of KOMO's HD broadcasts, but I didn't notice any problems. I didn't watch the whole game. I gave up in the middle of the 3rd quarter when it was obvious the Eagles were not going to win, but while I was watching the pictured and 5.1 sound was fine.

Have they fixed something, or did I just get "lucky" last night?

I noticed some picture freezes and sound problems. The audio got real bad just about halftime. I figured they were going to have to bale on the hd feed and go sd again. But when they came back from commercial it was fine again. I dont know if it has anything to do with it but I wonder how sharing bandwidth with the news feed affects the HD signal. Still I read where others nationwide had issues with the game to. So I think its a ABC network problem.

I was watching MNF through Comcast last night, and there were a number of issues, but if you look in the national thread on MNF, it was pretty widespread--not a KOMO issue.

BTW, I don't think anyone's complained about the PQ of KOMO, other than the fact that it has periodic freezes. Well, I complain about MNF being too bright (it wasn't last night) and the news bug, but overall the PQ is generally very good, when it's working right.

MNF was pretty good this time but the first interview with Peyton Manning sounded like Donald Duck and his nephew. Amusing as it was, I preferred the second time around with normal audio. That must have been a network feed problem. All in all, I'd say things have improved over what we had a few months ago.

Thanks to Don and the KOMO boys for all their work.

Originally posted by DanKurts
GGG
You would do just as well to simply move the antenna that's working now. Combining them will only get you into trouble. Your actual signal level went down, but the signal to noise ratio went up, as your numbers show. Patience is the key. Start with the farthest point North and East on your property. Do not worry about anything but KOMO. You can always dial in the others later. I would bet they'll be fine. When measuring a new spot, give the decoder a good 30 seconds to a minute to check it. Even if it only works a little, make a note of the spot and number, and go to the next. Pretty soon, you'll have a map that will give you some clues as to which way to go. 6 to 8" in any direction is worth another test. It can really be that fussy, trust me!
Dan
Well Dan, got a 30 ft extension rg 6 and walked all over the house & yard and got zip! I guess I'm stuck unless I try a more directional antenna. Any suggestions? (amazingly, I am almost maxing the signal #'s on all other channels with the attenuator-what a great gadget-thanks for the suggestion- KOMO is on channel 38...right?

Looks like Comcast remapped their QAM channel numbers for the locals. I freaked when I went to the previous ones and they all said scrambled! I'll remap those and then update the FAQ with that info along with the channel 28 multicast info someone posted a while back.

It's good to see station personnel posting here!

-Lance

Originally posted by GGG
Well Dan, got a 30 ft extension rg 6 and walked all over the house & yard and got zip! I guess I'm stuck unless I try a more directional antenna. Any suggestions? (amazingly, I am almost maxing the signal #'s on all other channels with the attenuator-what a great gadget-thanks for the suggestion- KOMO is on channel 38...right?

Well, lots of suggestions, but they all amount to a lot little things. 38 is KOMO.
Call me.
Dan
206-794-3993

KIRO-DT has a subchannel now. They are currently displaying a live feed of SeaTac on OTA channel 7-2 (39-2)...

Thank you for watching KIRO TV HD and SD, we are testing the SD 7.2 at this time and we also would like to ask our viewers to please do a rescan to pick up 7.1 & 7.2. At the current time we are using our Sea-Tac Camera and this will change down the line, but for now we will testing some of our cameras and other sources.
Again thanks for watching and to all our viewers we wish you a happy New Year.
KIRO TV Engineering Department

I think you should test it with old J.P. Patches tapes.

KIRO TV:

It would be interesting to know how you are going to allocate bandwidth between the HD subchannel 7.1 and the SD subchannel 7.2.

As you have likely heard, HD enthusiasts are concerned about the picture quality impacts of reducing the bandwidth (effective transmission rate) of any HD channel, whether OTA or via satellite.

A separate question for you: During the times that I have paid attention, it appears that you are always sending DD 5.1 audio with your HD subchannel. As I listen, it seems that you are mapping decoded Dolby Pro Logic II sources to their respective DD 5.1 channels, e.g., center, left, right, surround (both left and right). Am I close here?

The advantage I see to your approach is that my A/V receiver does not have to switch modes between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 (perhaps with the matrix surround flag set on). The end result is the prevention of popping sounds from my speakers when the A/V receiver is switching modes.

This is GOOD and I appreciate it.

At least one other Seattle DTV station is toggling between DD 5.1 or DD 2.0 with the matrix surround flag on. This at least gives the listener either DPL II or DD 5.1 without any user intervention.

Most of the other Seattle DTV stations are sending either DD 5.1 (when the source provides it) or DD 2.0 WITHOUT the matrix surround flag on, resulting in my A/V receiver defaulting to plain stereo instead of DPL II. I can manually force the A/V receiver to DPL II, but that setting is lost after the receiver goes back into DD 5.1 mode.

Anyway, it is great to see the progress you guys are making. Things seemed pretty frozen at KIRO-DT for some time.

I never thought I would say that I am looking forward to commercials, but I am growing tired of the CBS "It's All Here" promo that plays in the time slot when you would otherwise insert local commercials and promos. Are you getting close to being able to switch back and forth between network feed and locally sourced ads/promos?

Once again, we greatly appreciate your sharing information with us on this forum.

Most of you are aware of the occassional breakup of the KOMO-DT HDTV video. After doing some research, I have speculated that it was a result of interference from an airborne picket radar that is flying over the Puget Sound 24/7. These radars operate at very high power about 3.9 GHz, just below the ABC network's 4 GHz satellite receive frequency. The radar antenna takes about six seconds to revolve, and the racetrack circuit the plane is flying take about 30 minutes to complete. All this fits that pattern.

This morning, Fisher's Director of Engineering, Kelly Alford, confirmed that others are having similar problems with the follow message:


"We had a telephone conversation with ABC about this issue just this morning. Apparently the Seattle area isn't the only city effected by the Air Force radar planes flying around causing interference to satellite reception. In our conversation this morning, ABC indicated that they will be supplying us with custom made notch filters for installation on our LNB's to alleviate the problem. We will have more information next week as to when the filters will be available.

Don, feel free to pass this information along to the AVS discussion board if you think it would be beneficial.

Best Regards,

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering
KOMO-TV4 Seattle"

I think that we are getting closer.

Don

Has anyone else with a Samsung SIR-T151 "lost" KIRO?

I can get a "DTV" indicator light on the tuner, get (mostly "DTV Program") guide data, and see the "Digital Audio" OSD indicator, but can no longer actually see KIRO. It's having no problems with any other station I usually receive.

I don't think there's any sort of antenna/interference problem, because my Hauppauge WinTV-D can tune in 7-1 & 7-2 with no problem.

This is somewhat unusual, because the Hauppauge generally demands a cleaner signal than the Samsung, and I'd never before seen the Hauppague tune something that the Samsung wouldn't. I couldn't help but think... "You're watching CBS in HDTV. It's all gone."

Originally posted by pastiche
Has anyone else with a Samsung SIR-T151 "lost" KIRO?

I can get a "DTV" indicator light on the tuner, get (mostly "DTV Program") guide data, and see the "Digital Audio" OSD indicator, but can no longer actually see KIRO. It's having no problems with any other station I usually receive.

I don't think there's any sort of antenna/interference problem, because my Hauppauge WinTV-D can tune in 7-1 & 7-2 with no problem.

This is somewhat unusual, because the Hauppauge generally demands a cleaner signal than the Samsung, and I'd never before seen the Hauppague tune something that the Samsung wouldn't. I couldn't help but think... "You're watching CBS in HDTV. It's all gone."
I have the T150 and had to do a scan ("memorize channels") to get it to come back. If I tuned the digital channel number directly from the remote it would not find the subchannels.

Originally posted by quarque
I have the T150 and had to do a scan ("memorize channels") to get it to come back.

Quarque,

You're a genius. 7-1 and 7-2 (for what it's worth) are back. :-) Rescanning does the trick! Thank you! I will try to remember this in the future, since I have never had to re-scan before. (Things like ABC News Now and KING-SD have just "shown up" in the past.)

FWIW, When 7-2 came up, I lost the 7-1 picture and sound on my Dish 921 as well. It did show that it was tuned. A rescan cured the problem.

I would just like to get KIRO period in Yelm. I get everything but and don't understand why. KING and KOMO are the same compass position and same distance and KIRO is supposed to be the highest power of them all. It doesn't seem to matter what the weather is either. It will be comming in great for 20 or 30 minutes and then just disappear. Of the three I would much rather get KIRO - except for the news - until they start 16:9 like KOMO and KING.

Originally posted by Steve Schauer
I think you should test it with old J.P. Patches tapes.

That would be one subchannel I would support and watch! That's about the only one.

Am I the only not getting the Fiesta Bowl in HD?

About 30 minutes ago I left the room to answer the phone and when I came back the program is no longer in HD. It is currently 4th quarter with 8 minutes left!

Anyone else experiencing this? Anyone have any idea why?

Mike

After seeing your post I tuned back into the game. Yep it was not in HD. Must have had network problems again would be my guess.

It must have been a downlink problem. A friend of mine said the HD signal was looking terrible right before they switched to SD.

But right before the end of the game, they brought back the HD signal.

Now if we get KOMO to work on the pop sounds that occur atleast 50 times an hour! What gives? KIRO & KING don't have that problem!

Originally posted by mwnorman
Now if we get KOMO to work on the pop sounds that occur atleast 50 times an hour! What gives? KIRO & KING don't have that problem! Huh, I don't seem to get nearly that many pops. Like maybe one or two an hour. I get KOMO via Comcast.

Since Don is hopefully having a quiet weekend, I thought I'd jump in and post some information to the group after seeing some comments about the KOMO-DT operation over the weekend...

For KOMO Over-The-Air viewers over the past two days experiencing higher than normal freezes, tiling, and audio pops, we discovered a significant problem, with a relatively simple fix at the KOMO transmitter site yesterday, which should have cleared things up around 3:00PM PST. For those who are interested, (and without going into excessive amounts of techno-babble), beginning last Thursday night, we were having trouble with momentary shifts in signal to noise and higher than normal EVM levels on the KOMO DTV transmitter. Yesterday afternoon, we traced the problem to a partially failed coaxial cable that carried a 10mHz external reference signal from a GPS receiver located across the room to the transmitter. After we switched to the transmitters own internal reference clock, operation became quite stable. I suspect the shielding abilities of the cable broke down, causing interference to the GPS signal, combined with being routed too close to the high-voltage power supply transformer. We are continuing to monitor the stability after our find yesterday and hope you will notice the OTA improvement.

Of course depending on the time of day, we are still getting satellite interference from the flying Air Force radar which will be evident on some programs every 30 minutes or so, (see Don's previous post), but ABC should be assisting us on a solution for that soon.

Now I'll fade back into the hyperspace, and let Don continue keeping you apprised as to our progress.

Best Regards to the group, and Happy New Year.

Kelly D. Alford
Director of Engineering
KOMO TV-4 Seattle

Kelly,

Thanks for the update...keep up the great work as usual!

Originally posted by mwnorman
It must have been a downlink problem. A friend of mine said the HD signal was looking terrible right before they switched to SD.

But right before the end of the game, they brought back the HD signal.

Now if we get KOMO to work on the pop sounds that occur atleast 50 times an hour! What gives? KIRO & KING don't have that problem!

i live in seattle and use ota there, but for holidays I'm down in bay area using both ota and directtv. The ota of abc-hd has the exact same pops in the audio here. So I would guess this is a national feed issue not Komo's problem. I get the audio problems and picture problems all the time in seattle with MNF. I beleive ABC has some work to do...In general I beleive KOMO does, hands down the best HD out of all the local affiliates in Seattle.

On 7-2 (abc news now) does anyone else notice a small black spot in the middle of the picture?

WOW "KIRO-TV" is posting here? That is freakin awesome. Please keep in touch with us Seattle viewers. Most of us have been with you for quite awhile, through the ups and downs. Together, we can make KIRO the best HD channel in Seattle!

WOW! Kelly at KOMO is here too! Happy Holidays! I am excited to see you guys posting here! This is definitely the place to get in touch with your HD viewers.

Obviously been outta the loop. Welcome Don of KOMO DTV. I am so happy to see you all posting here!

I just upgraded the firmware on my T151 - and this reset all the channels. So I had to go through and set up the channels again. Now I am seeing 2 changes - suddenly I can get Q13 Fox perfectly (never got it before) and I can no longer get WB 22 (it previously came in great). I haven't watched TV since early december so the change could have been during that time but I was too busy with the holidays to notice.

Any changes with WB or Fox? Any chance it could be the firmware upgrade changed something? All the rest of the channels are the same on reception.

Thanks

Chris

For all those that gave me advice for the OTA problems I was having in Kitsap County... THANKS!

A few days ago, I finally got the Channel Master Join-tenna in the mail and installed it. What a difference! Now, between the two antennas, I get the HD feeds of 4,5,7,9,11,13 and assorted others. Just what I was looking for.

Thanks again!

Paul

Do any of the Networks ever transmit test patterns so we can accurately set up our picture settings - color/tint/contrast etc. I know HDNet broadcasts test patterns but do any of the networks? I do not have a dish at this time.

I have used Digital Video Essentials but I do not have an HD version so I can accurately change these settings. For now I have eyeballed things but that's not good enough.

This might be a good use for those questionable sub channels. I see some of the station engineers post here so that is my request for the new year :)

Originally posted by McFly9000
Do any of the Networks ever transmit test patterns so we can accurately set up our picture settings - color/tint/contrast etc. I know HDNet broadcasts test patterns but do any of the networks? I do not have a dish at this time.

I have used Digital Video Essentials but I do not have an HD version so I can accurately change these settings. For now I have eyeballed things but that's not good enough.

This might be a good use for those questionable sub channels. I see some of the station engineers post here so that is my request for the new year :)

I don't know if you get HD Net or not, but they have Hi Def test patterns every Tuesday morning at 5am PST. Nest one is Jan 4th at 5am PST.

http://www.hd.net/schedulepdfs/2005-01-03_2005-01-09.pdf

Kelly - thanks for filling in for Don. I've been watching the game tonight and things have looked pretty good so far. Since DrCrawn says he sees the same problems in the bay area does that mean the Air Force is doing the same AWACS thing in the Bay area or does it mean you are chasing smoke? Is there any way to verify the network feed is not the problem by checking in an area that has no AWACS radar around? Have you contacted other ABC stations to see what they are experiencing?

Larry

Originally posted by McFly9000
Do any of the Networks ever transmit test patterns so we can accurately set up our picture settings - color/tint/contrast etc. I know HDNet broadcasts test patterns but do any of the networks? I do not have a dish at this time.

I have used Digital Video Essentials but I do not have an HD version so I can accurately change these settings. For now I have eyeballed things but that's not good enough.

This might be a good use for those questionable sub channels. I see some of the station engineers post here so that is my request for the new year :)
I don't know if your set works like mine, but I found out that sending 480p to the component inputs in place of HD lets me adjust things using my Avia DVD on a progressive-scan player. The service menu has two sets of adjustments for everything and the 480p/1080i set covers the HD while the 480i set covers all SD input. If yours does not work that way then consider hiring an ISF tech to do a full tuneup.

I like your idea for using a sub-channel for something other than useless SD duplicates.

Quarque,

All I've heard via ABC is that some other "major" cities have had similar interference issues with similar timing, (about every thirty minutes), but not repeatable day to day. The Air Force will neither confirm nor deny the radar aircraft flying over the area, but I have confirmed from other reliable sources that this is the case. ABC has apparently found the offending frequency and feel confident installation of notch filters will help, if not eliminate that paticular problem. Now does this mean occasional signal issues generated at the network level will never occur? I doubt it, but in my view every little bit helps.

Well the notch filters will be quite telling either way. When do you think they will arrive?

Originally posted by chrhon
I just upgraded the firmware on my T151 - and this reset all the channels. So I had to go through and set up the channels again. Now I am seeing 2 changes - suddenly I can get Q13 Fox perfectly (never got it before) and I can no longer get WB 22 (it previously came in great). I haven't watched TV since early december so the change could have been during that time but I was too busy with the holidays to notice.

Any changes with WB or Fox? Any chance it could be the firmware upgrade changed something? All the rest of the channels are the same on reception.

Thanks

Chris
I upgraded my T150 about 18 months ago and it seemed to fix an audio problem but I saw no difference in tuning. AFAIK, there have been no changes at WB or Q13. It is possible there was a subtle tuning issue with WB due to multipath and the upgrade changed something there. You might try re-aiming your antenna a little each direction and see if that does anything. If you are an NFL fan you will certainly appreciate having 13 over 22! Go Seahawks!

Originally posted by McFly9000
Do any of the Networks ever transmit test patterns so we can accurately set up our picture settings - color/tint/contrast etc. I know HDNet broadcasts test patterns but do any of the networks? I do not have a dish at this time.

I have used Digital Video Essentials but I do not have an HD version so I can accurately change these settings. For now I have eyeballed things but that's not good enough.

This might be a good use for those questionable sub channels. I see some of the station engineers post here so that is my request for the new year :)

McFly9000
Great name! There has to be a good story behind it..... Loved all three of the Future movies.

To the question.
I like the idea of a test pattern for HD for roughing in the basics. They are definitely different from the SD. However, since you've been through the Video Essentials, the same basic principals apply. Watch your black levels, contrast/brightness settings, look for video ringing (yes, HD has it too) and the other adjustments as they pertain to your set. Not all displays have the same range of adjustments, or for that matter, the same adjustable parameters. Play a little with all the adjustments while in HD mode, making sure you note what was there to start with. This will give you a feel for how it reacts. READ THE MANUAL. I know it's not a guy thing, but they actually put some good data in there sometimes. Look up all the terms you don't understand. With a good thorough knowledge of how it all works, you can then understand what's required to get the stadium grass greener, the green faces more natural, or put more snap in a faded movie.

Why not just adjust it once and then it's set for everything you watch, you ask? Because it's for the same reason no 2 movies or TV shows are the same. Just because a test pattern looks good doesn't mean the show will. It's why they put the adjustments there for you to use! I'm obviously old school. I learned to set up a TV over 40 years ago (yeah, I'm older than dirt!) from picture tube replacements to IF strips, ad nauseum. My dad taught me and ruined me for life. I see all the flaws when I look at one. Use to drive my wife nuts because our first TV had no remote and I was always jumping up to fiddle with it. Now TV's have settings for each input ! Too cool. Call me Mr. Picky or Fussy. But, I understand where you're coming from, really!

So, rough in the picture with something live, like the nightly HD news cast, when the camera is on the person in the studio. This is about the best you will ever get from that station. To help get the contrast, brightness, focus, etc right, turn the color all the way off. Color signal adds to the black and white picture, (chrominance to luminance) so your eye actually gets fooled a little by watching with the color on. It's easier to then add in the color and tint when you have it looking right. This keeps you from over saturating, specially on the reds. That's the first clue you have too much color. After you have adequate color, then check all the settings again. If it's changed significantly, then you have some other problems to deal with, like a power supply that can't keep with the display, or it can't track a good gray scale from low light to bright settings from poor video drive sections, etc. BUT, at least you will now know what you're dealing with and can compensate for it's weaknesses.

Last, the test pattern from any station is only going to show you what it's particular capability is. Good for comparing one to another, somewhat, but then how do you know what the pattern is suposed to look like? If their color bars are a little off, (or through transmission compression, satellite feeds, cable links or who knows what) the video is just not right, you could end up adjusting for one station and find all the rest look soft, or....

To keep you from tearing your hair out, just learn to live with it by adjusting the settings a little as you feel it needs it. The more you do it, obviously the better the results. Maybe it's not a perfect scientific way, but then what is ?!?! I know you'll be much happier with the end results, because it's what YOU like, and not some one elses idea.
How's that go, "...beauty is in the eye......"
Dan

Hey,

I know the KOMO problems were supposed to have been fixed by yesterday at 3 pm - were they? I just sold my HDTV receiver, and the guy who bought it is still having audio dropout problems:

"I have one problem. All the channels work good but the KOMO 4-1 is not working properly with its audio. Setting the digital audio output to DD or PCM, the digital signal drops out constantly. "

"I found a remedy for the digital audio drop out problem. When I click "guide" button and let it tune in to Ch 4 and then return, the audio stays locked...until I change the channel. It is strange but the behavior is consistent. I wonder if there's any digital audio lock threshold I can set in the tuner."

"Just another information on the problem with the tuner. It seems the Channel 4-1 never gets Dolby Digital even when I manually lock in the audio with pressing the "Guide" button. It only outputs Prologic analog audio signal."

Any ideas?

I have a roof mounted 4221, Samsung SIR-TS160 & DTV. The antenna is pointed towards the Capitol Hill & Queen Anne towers. I am located at 4th Ave NW & NW 95th St in Greenwood. I have receive all the digital ota stations but KCPQ 13-1. What solutions are available to me to get 13-1 without losing the other stations?? Thanks!

Art1958 - Ch 13 is broadcast from Bremerton. The 4221 has a pretty wide sweet spot but that may be stretching it a bit far. You can try rotating your antenna as far south to SW as you can without losing QA and CH channels, then see if 13 comes in. If not, one popular way to handle this problem is to buy a JoinTenna and a second antenna to aim at Bremerton. You could try just a simple combiner first but if there is significant interference between the two antennas you may not get much. The other thing people have tried is removing the screen off the back of the 4221 to pick up stations (and reflections) in the opposite direction. You increase the risk of multipath interference but it is cheap and easy, so give it a try.

Originally posted by Dreamwriter
Hey,

"Just another information on the problem with the tuner. It seems the Channel 4-1 never gets Dolby Digital even when I manually lock in the audio with pressing the "Guide" button. It only outputs Prologic analog audio signal."

Any ideas?

I have noticed that KOMO-DT does the following with their audio. Don W. at KOMO has confirmed these:

1. Network ABC audio for HD programs is usually passed through by KOMO-DT as DD 5.1, EXCEPT when the KOMO-DT folks recognize problems and instead pass us the DD 2.0 audio with the matrix surround flag turned on (resulting in an A/V receiver automatically interpreting the DD 2.0 stereo audio as having DD Pro Logic II matrixed surround audio).

2. Network ABC audio for SD programs, and all local origination SD and HD programs are provided with DD 2.0 with the matrix surround flag turned on, causing the A/V receivers to invoke the Dolby Pro Logic II decoder function.

I am not watching now, but I noticed earlier near the end of the college football game tonight that the HD audio was DD 2.0, matrix suround on, playing on my A/V receiver automatically as DPL II audio. Perhaps there are problems with the ABC DD 5.1 audio, or maybe there has been an audio switching issue at KOMO-DT.

Perhaps Don or Kelly can clarify what has happened today audio-wise on KOMO-DT.

Originally posted by Art1958
I have a roof mounted 4221, Samsung SIR-TS160 & DTV. The antenna is pointed towards the Capitol Hill & Queen Anne towers. I am located at 4th Ave NW & NW 95th St in Greenwood. I have receive all the digital ota stations but KCPQ 13-1. What solutions are available to me to get 13-1 without losing the other stations?? Thanks!

Art1958
I routinely use that antenna around your area. It will have no problem with the spread between 13 and Capitol Hill.
The most common causes for your problem are
1) something, a tree/house/tall church 3 blocks away, etc is in the direction of 13 and partially blocking,
2) something with the connection between the antenna and your receiver.

Check the cable, no staples in it, no kinks or places where it got yanked or stepped on, connections are solid and not rusty or loose, no nicks or cuts in the jacket. On the antenna, check to see that the balun's two black wires are not twisted together before they connect to it, that all 4 of the bow-ties are symmetrical, the connecting rods on it are not touching each other or are very close to the main mast and last, if you take off the cable from the balun, the inside where the cable connects to is shiny metal and not rusted. Also, if you split the antenna signal, remove the splitter temporarily, and connect it directly to the receiver. Try aiming it directly at Bremerton to the SW and see what happens, as quarque said. And, of course, pull the plug on the receiver for a minute or two and do a rescan. DO NOT remove the screen. It will only make things worse for all the channels.
After checking all these things, post again with the results. Call me if you have questions on anything else you discover.
Dan

So nobody knows if KOMO's problems were fixed? The trick is, the guy is only having problems with KOMO, and I can't see any way that the problem could be with the receiver if it's only one channel having the problems.

I would say KOMO's problems won't be fixed until ABC ships the necessary notch filters for KOMO's satellite receivers.

anyone else have complete Audio suckage during the new U2 video during the Orange bowl? :confused:

Originally posted by mikeg_ms
anyone else have complete Audio suckage during the new U2 video during the Orange bowl? :confused:

I've never cared for U2, so you'll have to define "suckage." :D

I was actually going to comment that the portions of the game I watched (most the first half mainly) seemed pretty good--only a few glitches. I watched a portion of the U2 thing you mention, but since I was mainly wishing it would go away so they would start the game, I wasn't really paying attention.

Quarque:

Would you mind do a topo for a OTA antenna in NE 55th St & 187 AVE NE in Redmond?

Thanks

Lots of audio drops, continued deep into the 2nd half.

Full video, bad audio. This was on the samsung T-160, I've given up even bothering to try KOMO on the HR10-250.

Never had a problem with the samsung, tho.

I was told by everyone from the DTV installer to "experts" that the cheesy Winegard Sensar 1000 antenna shipped from DTV would do me no good whatsoever, and I should sell it.

Well, on a whim, I hooked it up to my Sammy SIR-TS360 this weekend and stuck the antenna in my downstairs HT window sill. What's this?

I did a digital station scan, and got 10 channels! Okay, KOMO4 & KING5 don't come in for crap - repeatedly drop out - but KIRO and Q13 come in like a charm! I mean, just beautiful! I also get KONG, KCTS, and a handful of others, but now I'm thinking about going thru the trouble of drilling a hole thru my house, running the RG-6, and mounting this sucker on top of my 2nd story roof!

I live at 137th North & Corliss Ave, and I've now been enjoying OTA HDTV (okay, EDTV, what with my 480p DLP projector! ;) ) for almost a week. The picture quality difference from the SDTV broadcast over satellite is amazing.

Anyway, just wanted to gush embarrassingly about it...

Originally posted by limartin
Quarque:

Would you mind do a topo for a OTA antenna in NE 55th St & 187 AVE NE in Redmond?

Thanks
There is a large hump at Bridle Trails to the west that is blocking direct LOS. It would take a 100+ ft tower to clear that 540 ft. hill. Go with cable or sat. system.

Originally posted by Fartnokker
I was told by everyone from the DTV installer to "experts" that the cheesy Winegard Sensar 1000 antenna shipped from DTV would do me no good whatsoever, and I should sell it.

Well, on a whim, I hooked it up to my Sammy SIR-TS360 this weekend and stuck the antenna in my downstairs HT window sill. What's this?

I did a digital station scan, and got 10 channels! Okay, KOMO4 & KING5 don't come in for crap - repeatedly drop out - but KIRO and Q13 come in like a charm! I mean, just beautiful! I also get KONG, KCTS, and a handful of others, but now I'm thinking about going thru the trouble of drilling a hole thru my house, running the RG-6, and mounting this sucker on top of my 2nd story roof!

I live at 137th North & Corliss Ave, and I've now been enjoying OTA HDTV (okay, EDTV, what with my 480p DLP projector! ;) ) for almost a week. The picture quality difference from the SDTV broadcast over satellite is amazing.

Anyway, just wanted to gush embarrassingly about it...
Now imagine what a *real* antenna would do for you! :D

All kidding aside, I used a piece of wire when I first got my receiver and pulled in 6 stations. But I never considered it a real antenna.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My Samsung T-160 can't lock onto KOMO (ABC)'s Audio stream.

I can't watch LOST in HiDef. I'm worried about ALIAS.

Great Video. Choppy Audio.

All other channels, including 4-2 are great.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!

yeah, some audio problems for me, but no HD drop out

Just watched Lost on my HR10-250 HD DirecTivo and there were no audio or video glitches that I noticed in KOMO-DT's broadcast.

Audio and video pops both last night during Alias. The timing was about right to be the radar problem. The stuttering/pops (usually 3-4 pops) are preceded by a bit of snapping/crackling for aobut 10-15 seconds.

Yes, that's right: snap...crackle...POP!

At any rate, let's hope those notch filters arrive soon and do the trick.

Andy

Originally posted by quarque
Now imagine what a *real* antenna would do for you! :D

All kidding aside, I used a piece of wire when I first got my receiver and pulled in 6 stations. But I never considered it a real antenna.

Next step is actually mounting this pup up high. If it doesn't pull in KOMO & KING acceptably, I will probably look into a better antenna. Seeing the difference is enough to keep me hooked on the OTA feed. Gotta have it!

Originally posted by Andy Anderson


Yes, that's right: snap...crackle...POP!




Jeez, now we have to contend with interference from those insidious cereal gnomes too?!?!

Art1958:

I have a roof mounted 4221, Samsung SIR-TS160 & DTV. The antenna is pointed towards the Capitol Hill & Queen Anne towers. I am located at 4th Ave NW & NW 95th St in Greenwood. I have receive all the digital ota stations but KCPQ 13-1. What solutions are available to me to get 13-1 without losing the other stations?? Thanks!

__________________
Art
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by quarque

Art1958 - Ch 13 is broadcast from Bremerton. The 4221 has a pretty wide sweet spot but that may be stretching it a bit far. You can try rotating your antenna as far south to SW as you can without losing QA and CH channels, then see if 13 comes in. If not, one popular way to handle this problem is to buy a JoinTenna and a second antenna to aim at Bremerton. You could try just a simple combiner first but if there is significant interference between the two antennas you may not get much. The other thing people have tried is removing the screen off the back of the 4221 to pick up stations (and reflections) in the opposite direction. You increase the risk of multipath interference but it is cheap and easy, so give it a try.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DanKurts

Art1958
I routinely use that antenna around your area. It will have no problem with the spread between 13 and Capitol Hill.
The most common causes for your problem are
1) something, a tree/house/tall church 3 blocks away, etc is in the direction of 13 and partially blocking,
2) something with the connection between the antenna and your receiver.

Check the cable, no staples in it, no kinks or places where it got yanked or stepped on, connections are solid and not rusty or loose, no nicks or cuts in the jacket. On the antenna, check to see that the balun's two black wires are not twisted together before they connect to it, that all 4 of the bow-ties are symmetrical, the connecting rods on it are not touching each other or are very close to the main mast and last, if you take off the cable from the balun, the inside where the cable connects to is shiny metal and not rusted. Also, if you split the antenna signal, remove the splitter temporarily, and connect it directly to the receiver. Try aiming it directly at Bremerton to the SW and see what happens, as quarque said. And, of course, pull the plug on the receiver for a minute or two and do a rescan. DO NOT remove the screen. It will only make things worse for all the channels.
After checking all these things, post again with the results. Call me if you have questions on anything else you discover.
Dan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have rotated the antenna from SE to SW & I now get Capitol Hill, QA & 13-1.

Thanks for the help!

Anyone notice the DirecTv press release regarding the rollout of local HD stations to the top 12 markets in a few months. Seattle (ranked #12) is not on the list and is replaced by the Tampa Bay area. Damn!

Originally posted by richmondbeach
Anyone notice the DirecTv press release regarding the rollout of local HD stations to the top 12 markets in a few months. Seattle (ranked #12) is not on the list and is replaced by the Tampa Bay area. Damn!

I wonder if this relates to the problems Comcast is having getting KIRO-HD onboard.

Someone in another thread suggested it might be due to our physical location--that they might want to ultimately use a different sat. for us, and switching later wouldn't make sense.

Hi i am new to this board and just was wondering if any of you have a mitsubishi tv with a HD reciever built in? The reason i ask this is that I have seem to lost all my hd channels and get them right now, when i say go to channel 5 (NBC) i get channel is off-air, its like that for all of the channels i used to have, fox, upn, pbs, abc, kong. Can someone help me???

Thanks in advance

I don't own the MIts tuner but Have you tried a channel rescan? If that does not work you might just unplug it then go through the setup again.


Let us know what kind of antenna you are using and your general location. It may be a reception issue. Do you have weatherproof connection on all outdoor cables? Water can really mess up your signal.

Originally posted by litzdog911
Just watched Lost on my HR10-250 HD DirecTivo and there were no audio or video glitches that I noticed in KOMO-DT's broadcast.

I trying to watch the Wildcard game, major audio problems :mad:.

Well I never had to set up an antenna, since the HD reciever is built into the tv, I have one of those HD Ready tv's, my location is south seattle, seward park area, it was working fine until thursday when i tried to watch some HD programming, it says channel off-air.

Have you ever watched OTA Hd on the set? You have to attach an antenna of some kind to the TV to receive HD> Do you have a existing rooftop antenna you could hook up to the set?

Originally posted by Steve Smith
I trying to watch the Wildcard game, major audio problems :mad:.



Seems to be better now. Good Game.

Originally posted by wezar
Seems to be better now. Good Game.
not GOOD enough for me! Those SeaFlops again....

Originally posted by quarque
not GOOD enough for me! Those SeaFlops again....
Not a happy day in the Queen City, although it was nice that the audio was better on KOMO. Between the lousy defense and a half dozen or so dropped balls most of which were very catchable, it just wasn't to be. But then there's next year, or the Storm!!

Anyone notice anything odd with CH 11 lately? I lost it yesterday and had to do a complete scan to pick it back up.

Originally posted by richmondbeach
Anyone notice the DirecTv press release regarding the rollout of local HD stations to the top 12 markets in a few months. Seattle (ranked #12) is not on the list and is replaced by the Tampa Bay area. Damn!

Well, I can give you some interesting info along those lines.....
Last week I did an antenna job for a gentleman that has the East/West coast feeds (grandfathered with waivers years ago) and he gets LA & NewYork ABC and FOX in HD, as well as NBC and CBS in standard def. What makes this interesting is he was told the same thing my other customer was told, which is, those were the only 2 networks available for now, in HD.
BUT.....
my other customer, who also has the waivers and feeds, only gets NBC & CBS HD, and was told that the ABC and FOX feeds were not available right now.....
But wait, there's more !
Just got back from CES ( WOW !!!! ). I stopped by the DirecTV booth, asked for one of their more technical guys, as I had some questions. One question was just that, why the two stories, obviously contradicting each other. He just smiled a sly grin, and said " I know, I know, I hear this all the time. I can't tell you what the exact policy is, because I keep getting different stories my self, that keep getting contradicted by users, too. I wish I could tell you what to ask for or why this happens, but I have no answer. Best thing is to simply keep trying, and hopefully someone will turn on the other channels for you." Then I asked about the HD satellites that were going up, and when we would be seeing Seattle HD, and if ALL the locals would be on it, or just the majors. He said that technically, they could do all, but that it's being rationed a bit, because other areas want their locals, too. As for when, he said that it depends on how successful the launches are, and other details, but they were hoping for about two years, but that it could be a little longer, or even shorter, too. I said, in the mean time, why can't you just give everyone that wants it, the East/West feeds? It's just a matter of turning on the users card, not as if you had to launch anything new. He just smiled again, and shrugged his shoulders. He said he didn't know why, but agreed, it's not a technical issue. I said, if enough people started e-mailing or phoning and requesting it, would that make a difference and move it up front for someone in authority to give it to us? He said of course. There are a lot of politics involved, but like all things political, enough voices can sway or push a decision in favor of something.

So, there you are. If you want it, and I think a lot of people would if it were available, let them know.

CES,
WOW!
After years of wishing, finally went Friday, on a one day blast. Left here at 6:30, arrived just as the doors opened, felt like a kid in a candy store. SO much to see. This also is where the term "mass people" really applied. By the afternoon, you couldn't hardly walk around the major displays, but there were plenty of interesting small ones with very clever ideas and products.
We flew back at 8:30, got home at 11. Tiring, but well worth it. I encourage anyone that wants to see it, with out spending much in time or money, to go. Air fare and taxi's only came to $250.
The displays were jaw dropping. Samsung must have had 40 or more 42" or 50" plasmas all across a 100ft long overhead entrance, doing all kinds of graphics, very cool, hard to describe. They had the best display there, I thought. Not too gaudy, but just the right amount of product and flash. The 102" plasma 1080P was not only big, but looked very good. No idea of if or when it would go into production, but last years show-stopper was the 80" 1080P and it was there, too, for sale now. It was great looking, too. Yours for only $50k. And their TI chipped 70" DLP, doing 1080P, was absolutely the best DLP picture I saw. Again, words can't describe it, just the best HD my old peepers ever saw. I now have a new "dream TV" to buy with that Lotto win ! Sony has a new 80" screen, $2000, designed specially to work with DLP/LCD projectors. They had it running with a $3500 Sony DLP in a normally lit room, and it looked very good. Not a Stewart screen, or the like, but for about $5500, a big display. And it could be used, obviously, with anyone's projector. It was designed to not reflect normal room light, just that coming from projectors. I find that curious, but it worked. A great solution for the poor mans theater.
And so much, much more. It would defintely take 4 days to see everything, or at least most of it.
The term awesome really applies.
Dan

Nice CES summary, Dan!

Your DirecTV contact is correct when he says the decisions about HD network availability is purely politcal, not technical. The FCC and congress have decided to grant our local broadcasters an amazing degree of power over what channels we're allowed to receive, even if we can't receive their over-the-air signals! It's crazy.

So wait a second--the DirecTV guy I talked to said that Seattle locals were going to be available in HD later this year. Has this now changed??

DIRECTV Announces First 12 Markets to Receive Local Channels in High-Definition This Year
New HD Local Markets Mark First Stage in Dramatic Expansion of HD Programming Over the Next Two Years


Las Vegas, NV Jan 6, 2005 DIRECTV, Inc., the nation's leading and fastest- growing digital television service provider, announced today that 12 of the nation's largest designated market areas (DMAs) will be among the first to receive DIRECTV-delivered local channels in high-definition (HD) in the second half of this year. DIRECTV will begin a historic expansion of its capacity with the planned launch of four next- generation satellites that will deliver more than 1,500 local HD and more than 150 national HD channels and other advanced programming services to consumers nationwide by 2007.

The first group of DMAs to receive local HD channels is: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington D.C., Atlanta, Detroit, Houston and Tampa. These markets represent nearly 36 million homes or 32.8 percent of all U.S. TV households. Additional markets to receive local HD programming this year will be announced at a later date. Today, DIRECTV offers local channels in standard definition in 130 markets, including these 12 markets.

"With the launch of the first of our local HD markets, we begin the most dramatic programming expansion in our history and take the first steps toward our goal of offering local HD channels to every household in America," said Mitchell Stern, president and CEO, DIRECTV, Inc. "We believe the addition of HD local channels to our programming lineup will provide new opportunities for growth as demand for HD programming increases, and will enable us to compete even more aggressively with cable."

Local HD programming in the first group of markets will be available mid-year following the successful launch of the Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2 satellites in the second quarter. The launch of these satellites and two others - DIRECTV 10 and DIRECTV 11, scheduled to go aloft in early 2007 - will play a vital role in the dramatic expansion of programming capacity for DIRECTV, announced last September.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seattle at #12DMA was left out.

CRAP!!! CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP!!!

That's it--I've officially had it with DirecTV. I will be cancelling as soon as my current contract runs out in August. When I moved last August, I was going to switch to cable to get HD, but I was **PROMISED** that Seattle locals were coming to HD in 2005. I even had then install the triple LNB satellite so that I would be ready to get them when they turned them on. What a bunch of liars.

I hate cable, but I refuse to stay with DirecTV if I have to wait another 3 years to get freakin' HD channels when cable has already had them for quite some time.

Leaving out the Seattle market in this initial HD run is a terrible mistake. Seattle is high-tech and therefore has a high HD-adoption rate. I think DirecTV will lose a lot of Seattle subscribers over this.

EDIT: From what I have read, DirecTV MAY be announcing other markets that will get HD before the end of this year, so maybe they didn't lie to me. Perhaps Seattle will just be in the 2nd round of cities coming on line, hopefully soon after the first 12. I guess we will have to wait and see.....

James. Since this is the OTA forum I take it that you have tried to recieve the locals via OTA without success?

I know a lot of people who will be happy to get the locals via Sat. It won't do much for me since I am one of the lucky ones who can get most all of them.

I am mainly concerned with what the out of pocket costs will be for a MPEG4 upgrade receiver.

Wezar, I actually haven't tried the OTA since Mr. Quarque's topological data shows me needing about a 150 foot tower to get an antenna with a clear view of the HD transmitters. :) I suppose I could TRY and see what I can get, but it would be a big investment (antenna + HD receiver) for something that is most likely to fail. Most likely my only options are DirecTV or Comcast.

Sorry to talk about DirecTV in the OTA forum, but the only forums seem to be OTA and Comcast, and there is a lot more talk about DirecTV in the OTA forum since most DirecTV customers only current option for HD is OTA.

Originally posted by JamesAHall
CRAP!!! CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP!!!

That's it--I've officially had it with DirecTV. I will be cancelling as soon as my current contract runs out in August. When I moved last August, I was going to switch to cable to get HD, but I was **PROMISED** that Seattle locals were coming to HD in 2005. I even had then install the triple LNB satellite so that I would be ready to get them when they turned them on.

From what I've read, you'll need a different dish and different equipment to use the new HD locals. Many are concerned whether the HD Tivos will receive the HD locals.

I thought that the Seattle area was something like the 13th largest metro area in the U.S., correct?

I've long since learned that I'll only trust anyone trying to sell me things when everything is finally offered. I haven't bothered to upgrade to an HD receiver yet, even though I own an HDTV, as they weren't offering enough value for me yet. They're getting pretty darn close, though ;). I'm optimistic that they'll roll out Seattle in the second batch.

Does anyone recall when regular locals came to Seattle on DirecTV? Was it in the first or second batch?

Conor
HDTV Laggard ;)

Rank Households
New York 1 7,376 (6.8%)
Los Angeles 2 5,402 (4.9%)
Chicago 3 3,399 (3.1%)
Philadelphia 4 2,874 (2.6%)
Boston (Manchester) 5 2,392 (2.2%)
San Francisco-Oak-San Jose 6 2,441 (2.2%)
Dallas-Ft. Worth 7 2,256 (2.0%)
Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) 8 2,224 (2.0%)
Atlanta 9 2,035 (1.8%)
Detroit 10 1,923 (1.7%)
Houston 11 1,849 (1.7%)
Seattle-Tacoma 12 1,685 (1.5%)
Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) 13 1,644 (1.5%)
Minneapolis-St. Paul 14 1,636 (1.5%)
Phoenix (Prescott), AZ 15 1,562 (1.4%)
Cleveland-Akron (Canton) 16 1,543 (1.4%)
Miami-Ft. Lauderdale 17 1,511 (1.3%)
Denver 18 1,399 (1.2%)
Sacramnto-Stktn-Modesto 19 1,278 (1.1%)
Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 20 1,264 (1.1%)

oh well - perhaps they have a slightly different list with Tampa ranked higher.

My memory (admittedly bad) is telling me that Seattle was not part of the original (non-HD) locals rollout for DirecTV. They may not have rolled out the same number of cities, either. So, we may have to wait awhile longer.

Quarque -- I am considering buying a home on 81st Drive NE (cross street is 77th Street NE) in Marysville. Can you give me LOS plot to see how the potential for OTA HD looks? Thanks a bunch!

Ron

Originally posted by Conroy
oh well - perhaps they have a slightly different list with Tampa ranked higher.

My memory (admittedly bad) is telling me that Seattle was not part of the original (non-HD) locals rollout for DirecTV. They may not have rolled out the same number of cities, either. So, we may have to wait awhile longer.

Seattle is definitely the 12th largest DMA, but they may have had trouble getting carriage agreements with one ore more stations as suggested above. Hopefully they can work it out soon... in the meantime we can keep pointing those antennas.

Supposedly one of the major carriers in Seattle (I think it is CBS) is in a prolonged fight with Comcast and won't let them use their HD signal at all. Maybe that prevented DirecTV from including Seattle. Grrrr.....

Quarque:

Could you do me a huge favor and do a topo for an OTA antenna around 24th Dr SE and 196th St SE in Bothell? I have a new home which will be done in about a month and I'm wondering what kind of antenna I need and which way it needs to be pointed.

Thanks in advace!

Originally posted by felthove
Quarque -- I am considering buying a home on 81st Drive NE (cross street is 77th Street NE) in Marysville. Can you give me LOS plot to see how the potential for OTA HD looks? Thanks a bunch!

Ron
Ron - you lucked out. That area is at about 400 feet and there are no hills even remotely in the way. You need only worry about the usual (trees, cats, bats and gnats). :)

Originally posted by Kermee
Quarque:

Could you do me a huge favor and do a topo for an OTA antenna around 24th Dr SE and 196th St SE in Bothell? I have a new home which will be done in about a month and I'm wondering what kind of antenna I need and which way it needs to be pointed.

Thanks in advace!
Your elevation is about 250 feet and there are no hills in the way. Antenna bearing is about 190 deg Magnetic (~210 deg true) for QA hill which should get you CH and Bremerton as well. Since you are only 15 miles from QA hill I suggest the Channel Master 4221 (or 4248 if you have lots of trees to go through).

Good luck!

KOMO should be taken off the air and their assets sold as junk.

Lost was fine. 10 min into Alias, there goes the audio again.

This is not on a Hr10-250, but on a Samsung T-160. Every other channel is fine. Komo was fine for hours, but they are still unreliable as all get out.

Originally posted by JamesAHall
Supposedly one of the major carriers in Seattle (I think it is CBS) is in a prolonged fight with Comcast and won't let them use their HD signal at all. Maybe that prevented DirecTV from including Seattle. Grrrr.....

From what I've heard from several different people at Comcast, it's the fact that their parent company is the same as KIRO's. That opens up several can's-O-worms. I'm not sure we'll ever get the straight scoop on the problems, but I wouldn't hold your breath. I've been hearing the "...in about 6 months...." since KOMO and KING went on Comcast. That's been a while and a half.
Dan

Normally, I watch this thread and don't think too much about any one persons problems having anything to do with the stations.
However, in the last few weeks, I've been getting problem calls from my installs with these two. These are people that I'm 99% certain don't have a problem with their location, antenna, or equipment. Anything's possible, but it's very unusal for me, since I know what was done and how the results looked on the scope. It's mostly people North and East of the towers, Mill Creek to Sammamish Plateau and in between. There's also other's here on the forum that seem to be having questionable reception.

If the KIRO or KSTW engineers are listening, I would be very interested to hear from you.
If you have the time, call me and I can give you more specifics.
Thank you.
Dan
206-794-3993

Originally posted by DanKurts
From what I've heard from several different people at Comcast, it's the fact that their parent company is the same as KIRO's. That opens up several can's-O-worms. I'm not sure we'll ever get the straight scoop on the problems, but I wouldn't hold your breath. I've been hearing the "...in about 6 months...." since KOMO and KING went on Comcast. That's been a while and a half.
Dan
FWIW, KOMO is part of locally-owned Fisher Broadcasting and KIRO is part of Cox Communications out of Atlanta.

Originally posted by DanKurts
Normally, I watch this thread and don't think too much about any one persons problems having anything to do with the stations.
However, in the last few weeks, I've been getting problem calls from my installs with these two. These are people that I'm 99% certain don't have a problem with their location, antenna, or equipment. Anything's possible, but it's very unusal for me, since I know what was done and how the results looked on the scope. It's mostly people North and East of the towers, Mill Creek to Sammamish Plateau and in between. There's also other's here on the forum that seem to be having questionable reception.

If the KIRO or KSTW engineers are listening, I would be very interested to hear from you.
If you have the time, call me and I can give you more specifics.
Thank you.
Dan
206-794-3993

My KIRO OTA reception is noticably worse since their IOT upgrade a few weeks ago. I'm using the exact same setup before and after. I'm in Kenmore near Bothell way and 73rd. My KSTW reception is very good though.

Originally posted by mikeg_ms
KOMO should be taken off the air and their assets sold as junk. Lost was fine. 10 min into Alias, there goes the audio again. This is not on a Hr10-250, but on a Samsung T-160. Every other channel is fine. Komo was fine for hours, but they are still unreliable as all get out.
Interesting... I just checked my HD 6412 recording of Alias and it's perfect. No audio problems, at least in the first 20 minutes. You're awfuly quick to condemn KOMO. I think they're doing a fine job with their digital channel.

Lost and Alias are my wife's 2 favorite shows but she cannot watch them in HD. My signal strength is higher with KOMO than any other channel I get yet it will suddenly completly drop to 0 for a few seconds and the receiver (samsung t-160) will say no signal and then in a few seconds*poof* its back again. It may not sound like much but having that happen in the middle of your show ruins it. I don't have this problem with any other channel - but it very frustrating becuase these are the shows my wife wants to watch.

Anyone else have similar problems?

Originally posted by DanKurts
From what I've heard from several different people at Comcast, it's the fact that their parent company is the same as KIRO's. That opens up several can's-O-worms. I'm not sure we'll ever get the straight scoop on the problems, but I wouldn't hold your breath. I've been hearing the "...in about 6 months...." since KOMO and KING went on Comcast. That's been a while and a half.
Dan

I think you might have it a little backwards. KIRO's parent company is a direct competitor of Comcast, that's why no easy negotiation. KIRO is owned by Cox, which has many cable systems around the US.

Originally posted by quarque
Your elevation is about 250 feet and there are no hills in the way. Antenna bearing is about 190 deg Magnetic (~210 deg true) for QA hill which should get you CH and Bremerton as well. Since you are only 15 miles from QA hill I suggest the Channel Master 4221 (or 4248 if you have lots of trees to go through).

Good luck!

quarque,

Thank you! I would like to mount the antenna in the attic. I'm wondering if the 4221 would be enough... Or do you think I should go with the 4248 to be safe?

Thanks again!

Originally posted by artshotwell
Interesting... I just checked my HD 6412 recording of Alias and it's perfect. No audio problems, at least in the first 20 minutes. You're awfuly quick to condemn KOMO. I think they're doing a fine job with their digital channel.

Well, I wouldn't call it quick. I've been through 3 antennas, 3 (different makes of ) receivers, 6 months of effort by two installers trying to make the Hr10-250 work. The only channel I have a problem with is KOMO. NBC and CBS come from the same tower and I can receive them fine. I can receive 4-2 fine.

I've used the T-160 as a fall back for a while.

Someone else owns a T-160 and has exactly the same problem. (see above)

I've sent them equiptment information, times of problems and more.

The Samsung used to be fine -- recently they tried to fix an audio glitch and have only made it worse.

And, FWIW it was at or after about the 20 min mark that I lost Audio. So it was fine for LOST and the 1st bit, video never glitched the entire time, 4-2 and every other channel's audio is fine and other people are seeing the same.

Why don't you think it's their problem?

Originally posted by mikeg_ms
Why don't you think it's their problem?
Well, probably because I get no problems. Granted, I'm watching on Comcast, but they get the signal off-air just like you. And, I suspect they're reception location isn't all that good since their analog signal just doesn't look as good as most of their other analog signals.

I'm curious: anyone else have problems during last night's Alias?

Art,

Look at chrhon's post just below yours.

Sorry to vent... but I've put a lot of time, money and effort into getting HD at my house and now that ABC has 3 good shows what used to be a really good HD channel has suddenly become unwatchable.

We also lost the orange bowl at halftime, etc.

I wish it was like emissions. "send us receipts for this much and you can have a waiver to get distant HD for national programming".

mikeg_ms:

Sorry. Maybe it was I who jumped too fast. I certainly understand your frustration. Until last July, I lived where I could pick up all Seattle stations intermittenly. It was sooo frustrating to see KOMO, KING or KIRO come and go. It was so bad for me that it was very rare I had even a whole hour to watch one of those three. KCPQ and a couple religious and shopping channels were the only digital channels I could rely on.

I now live where there's no chance of any off-air digital, so I put away my Sony DirecTV receiver and moved to Comcast. I lost CBS HD (which I had thanks to my waiver), but gained NBC & ABC. Lost HDNet and gained InHD (nearly worthless).

Originally posted by artshotwell
Well, probably because I get no problems. Granted, I'm watching on Comcast, but they get the signal off-air just like you. And, I suspect they're reception location isn't all that good since their analog signal just doesn't look as good as most of their other analog signals.

I'm curious: anyone else have problems during last night's Alias?

Hmmm... weren't there posts earlier about interference on KOMO from an Air Force radar picket? I'm in Kitsap County and (after a lot of antenna tweaking) KOMO is working fine for me with the exception of what I've been assuming was this radar thing. Every so often, I'll get a few glitches, on and off for a few minutes, then the picture is fine again for an hour or so. IF the radar interference is the issue, I thought the last post I read on it said KOMO was ordering some notch filters to make this go away.

Paul

Originally posted by chrhon
Lost and Alias are my wife's 2 favorite shows but she cannot watch them in HD. My signal strength is higher with KOMO than any other channel I get yet it will suddenly completly drop to 0 for a few seconds and the receiver (samsung t-160) will say no signal and then in a few seconds*poof* its back again. It may not sound like much but having that happen in the middle of your show ruins it. I don't have this problem with any other channel - but it very frustrating becuase these are the shows my wife wants to watch.

Anyone else have similar problems?

We are experiencing interference into the ABC network satellite receiver. The pattern seems to indicate airborne radar. There will be a series of quick 'freezes' 4 or 5 times in a row, then perfect for a half hour or more. If you are seeing more of a problem than that, you probably are getting some multipath interference.

The ABC network has two satellite transponders that they use to distribute programming. The first is the standard NTSC feed that provides all programming to the affiliated stations. Those stations that have not installed the necessary HDTV equipment, take all their programs off this transponder. This one is not getting interference.

The second transponder carries all of the network's HDTV programs. Local stations must switch network feeds to put HDTV on the air. That's why you see a late switch to HDTV at the start of a program. That is a very busy time for the Master Control operator, and he does not alway get it done right at the appropriate time. To correct this problem, KOMO is in the process of automating that switch.

The second transponder is the one that is getting hit with interference.

Some of the military high-power radar operates at 3.9 GHz, just below the C-band satellite that distributes the network HDTV programs. We are trying to find a bandpass or notch filter to eliminate the interference. Unfortunately, this is not an off-the-shelf item.

Do you see the dropouts during non-HDTV programming, such as the local news? How about NTSC network programs such as "Extreme Makeover, Home Edition"? If you are seeing the problem there, something else is going on.

I, too, have a Samsung SIR-TS160. I see the pattern described above on programming that comes to the station on the second network feed, but local programs and network SD programs are perfect.

Hang in there with us, guys. Outside interference is difficult to control...we are working on it.

Don

I will second Don that I see the half-hourly freezes on Comcast 104.

Don, I see only one consistent problem in local programming. That involves video: the screen will blank briefly, then come back and the video is mostly white. I think it's a what we used to call a whiparound at the head of the newscast??? Anyway, in the last couple of days, there's been a little change: the screen blanks, then it looks like scanning is thrown off, bunch of what look like scan lines at slight diagonal, then screen is back. The diagonal things looks like an old analog picture would look if the set's horizontal control was thrown too far to one side or another. Since I can't see what's happening during the blankout, I'm not sure what's going on.

Originally posted by artshotwell
I will second Don that I see the half-hourly freezes on Comcast 104.

Don, I see only one consistent problem in local programming. That involves video: the screen will blank briefly, then come back and the video is mostly white. I think it's a what we used to call a whiparound at the head of the newscast??? Anyway, in the last couple of days, there's been a little change: the screen blanks, then it looks like scanning is thrown off, bunch of what look like scan lines at slight diagonal, then screen is back. The diagonal things looks like an old analog picture would look if the set's horizontal control was thrown too far to one side or another. Since I can't see what's happening during the blankout, I'm not sure what's going on.

I have not seen that, Art. I will watch closely today and see if I can pick it up.

Don

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
We are experiencing interference into the ABC network satellite receiver. The pattern seems to indicate airborne radar. There will be a series of quick 'freezes' 4 or 5 times in a row, then perfect for a half hour or more. If you are seeing more of a problem than that, you probably are getting some multipath interference.

I, too, have a Samsung SIR-TS160. I see the pattern described above on programming that comes to the station on the second network feed, but local programs and network SD programs are perfect.

Hang in there with us, guys. Outside interference is difficult to control...we are working on it.

Don

Don, that's not what I'm seeing.

With the Samsung T-160 (the HR10-250 is a lost cause w.r.t KOMO at this point) we had the following last night:

Approximately 7:40 I tried Jeopardy. Audio glitching, whereby I mean the following:

The T-160 is connected to a Denon AVR-5800 via a TOSLINK cable. The panel of the AVR would display Dolby Digital, offset +4db then go blank (coincidental with loss of audio) then relock. This happens continuously. The Video is unaffected.
I tried switching the reciever to PCM and the audio to direct, no joy (along with other intermediate steps)

I tried resetting the receiver (including power cycling it).

I've checked the heat load on the HD receiver, it's cool.

At 7:58 or so I checked the audio, no problems LOST was in full HD and glorious AC3.

At approx. 9:20 Alias all of sudden had continual audio glitches per above. So back to SD we went (booo!) every commerical I tried the HD feed and the HD box. No joy.

At 10:05 whatever is next was still exhibiting the problem.

The same scenario happened during the Orange bowl.

At no point did we ever lose Video. At no point did the signal strength meter vary at all.

4-2 is fine. All other channels (and we get almost all of them) have fine audio.

Originally posted by mikeg_ms
Don, that's not what I'm seeing.

With the Samsung T-160 (the HR10-250 is a lost cause w.r.t KOMO at this point) we had the following last night:

Approximately 7:40 I tried Jeopardy. Audio glitching, whereby I mean the following:

The T-160 is connected to a Denon AVR-5800 via a TOSLINK cable. The panel of the AVR would display Dolby Digital, offset +4db then go blank (coincidental with loss of audio) then relock. This happens continuously. The Video is unaffected.
I tried switching the reciever to PCM and the audio to direct, no joy (along with other intermediate steps)

I tried resetting the receiver (including power cycling it).

I've checked the heat load on the HD receiver, it's cool.

At 7:58 or so I checked the audio, no problems LOST was in full HD and glorious AC3.

At approx. 9:20 Alias all of sudden had continual audio glitches per above. So back to SD we went (booo!) every commerical I tried the HD feed and the HD box. No joy.

At 10:05 whatever is next was still exhibiting the problem.

The same scenario happened during the Orange bowl.

At no point did we ever lose Video. At no point did the signal strength meter vary at all.

4-2 is fine. All other channels (and we get almost all of them) have fine audio.


Mike -

I just sent you a PM. I would like to know when you are seeing the audio problems.

Don

I have not seen any issues with local, only national.

Now, if someone could explain why the OTA signal is sharp, and the comcast dvr signal of the same broadcast is soft, I'd love to know.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
I have not seen that, Art. I will watch closely today and see if I can pick it up.
Don
Don, I half to say I've been very impressed with how you've integrated your sources so nicely. Including getting 16x9 SD field cameras. I think you've done everything right. Some other stations stretch 4x3 to fit 16x9 for institials. Others jump back and forth between 4x3 in a 16x9 frame and full 16x9. Some have been very sloppy with institials, or they don't run local spots at all between or inside HD network shows. Hats off to you & your crew.

And, I might add congrats to the crew at KCPQ/KTWB, who had awful startup problems using one-off and beta hardware & software.

Originally posted by artshotwell
Don, I half to say I've been very impressed with how you've integrated your sources so nicely. Including getting 16x9 SD field cameras. I think you've done everything right. Some other stations stretch 4x3 to fit 16x9 for institials. Others jump back and forth between 4x3 in a 16x9 frame and full 16x9. Some have been very sloppy with institials, or they don't run local spots at all between or inside HD network shows. Hats off to you & your crew.

And, I might add congrats to the crew at KCPQ/KTWB, who had awful startup problems using one-off and beta hardware & software.

Most of the HD equipment is now well beyond the beta stage. After many years of dealing with nagging little issues with standard television, the delivery of NTSC video is pretty smooth. Now the expectation for smooth HD delivery is pretty high.

We have had over fifty years to iron out the wrinkles, add redundancy, and to get on with the business of producing compelling programming. A good example is when, in the early year, the picture rolled every time we switched to an outside the studio source. You alway knew when the station switched to the network because you would see a flop. Then, some smart people came up with a frame synchronizer that continually fed uninterrupted sync pulses to the receiver...and now, no flop.

It will still be a while for most stations to build in redundant systems and to develop the operational procedures that provide continuously seamless programming. We're working on it.

Don

1. Where do you get them? Solid Signal doesn't carry them.

2. I have a 30 degree spread between QA Hill and Bremerton so I want to use it to point a separate antenna at KCPQ. But I don't understand how it works: there is a Model 0585-1 that filters Channels 14-29. Won't that pick up D25 as well as D18?

Interesting--I haven't had nearly the audio glitching that mikeg_ms is having, but I definitely do get the audio crackles and audio/video pops consistent with Don Wilkinson's description of the airborne radar interference. I'm using a Hughes E-86 and a 4 bowtie channelmaster for OTA.

Another interesting thing--I was in Magnolia HiFi on Roosevelt last weekend during the Seahawks game (getting a car stereo installed) there was some audio/video pops (again, consistent with Don Wilkinson's description of the airborne radar interference) happening there. Except, all of their TV's--plasmas, LCDs, DLP RPTV, etc, were tuned to the game. It was hilarious; the salespeople were trying to explain the advantages of HD, the signal (and every set on the store) freezes and pops, and every one of them is making up some story as to why it's happening. I just had to smile.

Andy

Originally posted by Steve Schauer
1. Where do you get them? Solid Signal doesn't carry them.

2. I have a 30 degree spread between QA Hill and Bremerton so I want to use it to point a separate antenna at KCPQ. But I don't understand how it works: there is a Model 0585-1 that filters Channels 14-29. Won't that pick up D25 as well as D18?

1. I ordered mine from Warren Electronics ....
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/

2. It's the Model 0585-1, but tuned for Channel 18. You have to specify what channel you want when you order it. Mine seems to work fine combining in Channel 18 without causing any problems on Ch 25.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
A good example is when, in the early year, the picture rolled every time we switched to an outside the studio source. You alway knew when the station switched to the network because you would see a flop. Then, some smart people came up with a frame synchronizer that continually fed uninterrupted sync pulses to the receiver...and now, no flop.Don
You're showing your age. Sync lock has been around a long time.

Thanks litzdog911.

Don,

I have only seen KOMO-DT problems with network HD programs. Local HD/SD and network SD programs are fine (all OTA for me).

Originally posted by artshotwell
You're showing your age. Sync lock has been around a long time.

...and so have I. My first TV experience was with an RCA TK-10 Image Orthicon camera in 1963. Things have changed a lot!

Don

Originally posted by Budget_HT
Don,

I have only seen KOMO-DT problems with network HD programs. Local HD/SD and network SD programs are fine (all OTA for me).

Thanks, Dave. That's what I am seeing as well. There is something strange going on with mikeg_ms. I have sent him a PM with my home phone number so that he can give me a call when it is happening. This is something that I would really like to nail down.

One of the strange things about this digital stuff is that different receivers act differently under similar conditions. For example, right now my Samsung receiver will not lock on KIRO, while my HiPix is happy with what it sees.

As I have said before, we are all still learning about this stuff.

Don

While I'll occasionally have a reception problem with KOMO (multipath, I think in my case), for the most part, it's been the most consistent OTA channel for me. A Dish 921 and B. Tongue 4875 handle the reception chores. Audio on HD programming seems to drop down in volume periodically, but other than that and the above, I'm a pretty happy camper when it comes to Ch. 4. My daughter is an Alias fan and I go for the West Wing. Last night was her week for the HDTV, but I checked with her and she just told me Alias reception was great.

Dan K., I'll give you a call tomorrow about the other reception issues. Work has been ugly lately.

Originally posted by chrhon
Lost and Alias are my wife's 2 favorite shows but she cannot watch them in HD. My signal strength is higher with KOMO than any other channel I get yet it will suddenly completly drop to 0 for a few seconds and the receiver (samsung t-160) will say no signal and then in a few seconds*poof* its back again. It may not sound like much but having that happen in the middle of your show ruins it. I don't have this problem with any other channel - but it very frustrating becuase these are the shows my wife wants to watch.

Anyone else have similar problems?
That symptom is indicative of a strong reflection that causes the receiver to lose lock on the signal. Try moving your antenna or chaning the orientation a little each way. It may take considerable experimentation and patience.

Originally posted by Kermee
quarque,

Thank you! I would like to mount the antenna in the attic. I'm wondering if the 4221 would be enough... Or do you think I should go with the 4248 to be safe?

Thanks again!
Indoor is always dicey so it is best to go outdoors if at all possible from the start and avoid all the frustration. If that is not possible then go with the 4248 for higher gain. Radio Shack has a nice corner-yagi 15-2160 that has worked well for some and I think they take returns on antennas.

Originally posted by Steve Schauer
1. Where do you get them? Solid Signal doesn't carry them.

2. I have a 30 degree spread between QA Hill and Bremerton so I want to use it to point a separate antenna at KCPQ. But I don't understand how it works: there is a Model 0585-1 that filters Channels 14-29. Won't that pick up D25 as well as D18?
Steve - a 30-degree spread is well within the range of many antennas. I won't say the JoinTenna is a bad idea, just that you may have something else going on there other than being too far off-axis. What antenna are you using?

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
...and so have I. My first TV experience was with an RCA TK-10 Image Orthicon camera in 1963. Things have changed a lot!

Don
Don - was that a coal-fired unit or wood-burning unit? :D :D :D

My KOMO-DT experience has been better lately but I have the audio problems consistent with the radar picket theory. Local HD seems fine.

Originally posted by quarque
Indoor is always dicey so it is best to go outdoors if at all possible from the start and avoid all the frustration. If that is not possible then go with the 4248 for higher gain. Radio Shack has a nice corner-yagi 15-2160 that has worked well for some and I think they take returns on antennas.

I use a 15-2160 in my attic with a CM 7775 pre-amp for flawless reception of KOMO (except for the radar dropouts that everyone gets), KING, KIRO, KCTS, KSTW, KONG and KCPQ. I am probably 15 miles or so from the Seattle towers. Plus, as quarque states, if it doesn't work, Radio Shack will take it back.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
...and so have I. My first TV experience was with an RCA TK-10 Image Orthicon camera in 1963. Things have changed a lot!Don
Well, we're in the same time frame. I was a Broadcasting major at San Diego State then, also working with the RCA TK-10. The following year, I was editing 2" tape, with this crude splicer and a liquid to see the vertical blanking on the tape.

Originally posted by quarque
Don - was that a coal-fired unit or wood-burning unit? :D :D :D

My KOMO-DT experience has been better lately but I have the audio problems consistent with the radar picket theory. Local HD seems fine.

You know, Larry, I never did figure whether it was wood or coal burning in there. I know something was burning because I could see all those orange embers glowing inside.

Originally posted by artshotwell
Well, we're in the same time frame. I was a Broadcasting major at San Diego State then, also working with the RCA TK-10. The following year, I was editing 2" tape, with this crude splicer and a liquid to see the vertical blanking on the tape.

Boy, does that bring back memories, Art. We had a single RCA 2" quad recorder and two vidicon film chains at that time. I have spent some time with a razor blade and developing fluid as well. It sure seems primitive now, doesn't it?

quarque,how is the outlook for reception in North Everett (600 block of North Broadway). Thanks

Originally posted by richmondbeach
quarque,how is the outlook for reception in North Everett (600 block of North Broadway). Thanks
Not good. That area is at about 100 feet and a few miles south is the 600-foot hump near Hwy 526. OTA is DOA. :(

Don - as far as my experiences in the Yelm area, I'll have to agree with JM Anthony - KOMO is by far doing the best job as far as the majors go ( 4-5 and 7 ) I get KOMO at least 90% of the time with just the occasional pop in the audio. KING is only about 50% of the time and KIRO 10%. I don't understand why all the others ( 9-11-13-16-22 ) are 100%. One would think just the opposite would be true. Anyway, it's nice to see you take the time to keep us updated. Thanks

Don, to answer your questions you are correct it doesn't happen that often to me (once per half hour at most... usually less) and in my limited memory I can't remember it happening any time it was a non-HD show. Just becuase of the few times it has, it makes my wife nervous so she won't watch it on HD. I don't have the audio only problems... in fact I have never had audio drop out without the video dropping out too.

Right now I am just using an indoor antenna. Next month I am planning on getting one professionally mounted externaly - then I should be sure to rule out the possibility of multi-path problems (since that is what some people think it is). Then I'll have my wife watch it again in HD... to be honest I don't watch that much TV so I am a bad judge.. (LOL but the PBS-5 HDTV hawaii thing the other day sure was pretty :) )

Originally posted by quarque
Steve - a 30-degree spread is well within the range of many antennas. I won't say the JoinTenna is a bad idea, just that you may have something else going on there other than being too far off-axis. What antenna are you using?
Unfortunately I've got some fir trees I have to find holes to shoot through. I can get strong signals for everybody but KOMO, but only if I point to Bremerton for KCPQ.

I've got a 4228. I think I'll try a second antenna without the jointenna first. When I swing it towards KCPQ the Seattle stations drop off to almost nothing so I think it might work

Program Guide & Time of Day

First, I would like to thanks Don for introducing me to this forum (or the other way around) a while back. Then I have some questions regarding the above. Most DT stattions, if not all, except KOMO displays a strange time of day, it is always 8 hours behind (or 16 hours ahead, I forgot if it showed the date). For example, it shows 10am at 6pm and so on. Then the Programming Guide, I can never obtain it from KOMO (with an LST 3510A). Since I do not have such problems with (most) other stations I wonder if this is something that has not been in the KOMO broadcast data or it has a slightly different format that my receiver does not fully understand? Anyone out there with better results?

Regards,
tuquet

The 8 hour difference is the time between PST and Zulu (Greenwich) time. In the spring (PDT)y ou'll see the difference go to 7 hours.

Originally posted by tuquet
Program Guide & Time of Day

First, I would like to thanks Don for introducing me to this forum (or the other way around) a while back. Then I have some questions regarding the above. Most DT stattions, if not all, except KOMO displays a strange time of day, it is always 8 hours behind (or 16 hours ahead, I forgot if it showed the date). For example, it shows 10am at 6pm and so on. Then the Programming Guide, I can never obtain it from KOMO (with an LST 3510A). Since I do not have such problems with (most) other stations I wonder if this is something that has not been in the KOMO broadcast data or it has a slightly different format that my receiver does not fully understand? Anyone out there with better results?

Regards,
tuquet

Good Morning, tuquet -

KOMO does not presently provide program guide information. However it is coming. New PSIP generating equipment has been ordered which will allow the insertion of the program guide.

This morning, there are some vertical lines in the KOMO-DT picture. There is a problem with one of the video processors that is not corrected by the usual re-seating of a card or a reboot. The techs are working with the manufacturer for repair or replacement.

forum junkie, I'm glad to hear you are getting the channels you do. I have not had that much success. I never get 7-1, have not had 5-1 in some time. I do get 4-1 but its signal strength is weak and right on the border of good reception and breakup. Signal strength this morning is 45 on 4-1 and 15 to 20 on 5-1 and 7-1. Of course 13-1 is a horse and 28-1 is too. I have had directv since I moved here as there was no cable then in my area. I wish our area had been included on directv's "A" list for local high def! I am getting tired of climbing on the roof trying to tweak my antenna to get reception. I have found that the crappier the weather the better signal strength I get? I can get 5-1 then and a snippet of 7-1 occasionally in those weather conditions. I wonder if Fort Lewis has any effect on the reception here also?

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
Good Morning, tuquet -

KOMO does not presently provide program guide information. However it is coming. New PSIP generating equipment has been ordered which will allow the insertion of the program guide.

This morning, there are some vertical lines in the KOMO-DT picture. There is a problem with one of the video processors that is not corrected by the usual re-seating of a card or a reboot. The techs are working with the manufacturer for repair or replacement. Thanks, Don. I noticed the vertical lines since last night and was quite sure it was not my equipment. Thanks for the heads-up. How about the "time of day" issue? It is not my equipment that extrapolate from other channels, is it?

Is anyone else getting subtle horizontal bars on KOMO 4-1? I've been getting this display corruption for 2 days, but the primetime shows seem fine, the local stuff like the news right now, is affected. ??

Originally posted by DrCrawn
Is anyone else getting subtle horizontal bars on KOMO 4-1? I've been getting this display corruption for 2 days, but the primetime shows seem fine, the local stuff like the news right now, is affected. ??
Not in my case. I'm looking at KOMO now and I can see the subtle vertical lines, but nothing horizontal.

Originally posted by JM Anthony
Not in my case. I'm looking at KOMO now and I can see the subtle vertical lines, but nothing horizontal.

Likewise.

Radtek, I've wondered about Fort Lewis interfering but heck - I get 16-1 flawless and it is the same direction and less power than 4,5 + 7 and greater distance even. It doesn't seem they would escape the interference if there was any. I even pulled down my stacked 4228's and tried an anntenacraft yagi after seeing Yelm tel using them. It pulled in 5-1 great but completely lost 7-1 and 4-1 was hit and miss so I went back to the stacked 4228's. When DTV does carry locals it will most likely be just the notworks to start which will be alright since I get everything else. But even HD on DTV isn't as great as ota so I would still prefer it that way.

Originally posted by tuquet
Program Guide & Time of Day

First, I would like to thanks Don for introducing me to this forum (or the other way around) a while back. Then I have some questions regarding the above. Most DT stattions, if not all, except KOMO displays a strange time of day, it is always 8 hours behind (or 16 hours ahead, I forgot if it showed the date). For example, it shows 10am at 6pm and so on. Then the Programming Guide, I can never obtain it from KOMO (with an LST 3510A). Since I do not have such problems with (most) other stations I wonder if this is something that has not been in the KOMO broadcast data or it has a slightly different format that my receiver does not fully understand? Anyone out there with better results?

Regards,
tuquet
I mentioned the 'time of day' problem to Don years ago when I first got my Samsung T150. They never did come with any ideas since he said the time shows correctly on other receivers. I wrote it off as a bug in the Sammy. Since you have a 3510A I now think it has to be a data/format problem.

I am getting numerous audio pops and very short dropouts on KOMO-DT. Actually stopped about one minute ago.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I am getting numerous audio pops and very short dropouts on KOMO-DT. Actually stopped about one minute ago.

Are you still getting the pops, Dave?

I wasn't watching closely until your message, but I haven't seen anything here for the last 20 minutes.

Originally posted by tuquet
Thanks, Don. I noticed the vertical lines since last night and was quite sure it was not my equipment. Thanks for the heads-up. How about the "time of day" issue? It is not my equipment that extrapolate from other channels, is it?

The encoder setup shows that the time of day is correct. None of the off-air receivers around the station show anything different. I can't find anything but the correct time on my Samsung 160, however, I have a feeling that the time is coming from DirecTV. Their program guide is about the only thing that refers to time.

Strange. I will ask some questions about that when I go in Tuesday.

Don, I only heard pops during switching between network and local commercials audio after that. I am in the next room but could still hear the TV from here.

But I was not paying close attention.

Maybe I will hook up my DTC-100 again and see what I see PSIP-wise from KOMO-DT, i.e., clock, etc. The DTC-100 has sat in the closet for almost a year now. My Hughes E86 does not support PSIP data much (channel mapping only? All else seems to come from DirecTV APG). I believe your Samsung will take DirecTV APG when available (for a given channel) or revert to PSIP data if no APG for that channel. At least that is my assumption from what I have read here.

I was considering setting up the DTC-100 in my travel trailer (land alternative to boat). I can have separate satellite feed, cable TV feed and OTA antenna feed and the DTC can get PSIP program guide data for OTA stations, whether or not satellite dish is connected. I have a typical "bat wing" amplified rotating dipole antenna for OTA.

Originally posted by Don Wilkinson
The encoder setup shows that the time of day is correct. None of the off-air receivers around the station show anything different. I can't find anything but the correct time on my Samsung 160, however, I have a feeling that the time is coming from DirecTV. Their program guide is about the only thing that refers to time.

Strange. I will ask some questions about that when I go in Tuesday. The 3510A also only shows the time when I call for the guide. I wish they put it in "Info" as well. With Larry on my side, you have got some work coming Tuesday. Enjoy your long weekend.

Larry, does yours show the same offset as mine, i.e. 8 hrs. behind (or 16 hrs. ahead)?

Don:

On my DTC-100 I am seeing KOMO-DT times at 8 hours earlier than most other DTV stations. The DTC-100 is operating OTA only right now--no satellite connection. The other stations seem to be on normal time. This is definitely PSIP-supplied time.

When I change channels, the time in the channel banner appears to change to that supplied by the station. On 4-1 and 4-2 I get 3:38 when on other stations I get 11:38.

Of course, the DTC-100 is pretty old technology by today's standards of performance. I have no idea how close its PSIP implementation is to "spec". I do see PSIP program guide data for several stations, so that part is at least partially working.

Originally posted by tuquet
The 3510A also only shows the time when I call for the guide. I wish they put it in "Info" as well. With Larry on my side, you have got some work coming Tuesday. Enjoy your long weekend.

Larry, does yours show the same offset as mine, i.e. 8 hrs. behind (or 16 hrs. ahead)?
All stations are within +/- 1 minute of correct time usually, except KOMO which I believe has always been 8 hours "early" regardless of daylight savings time or not. Right now it says 8:33 AM instead of the actual 4:33 PM.

Dave, Larry: we see the same time offset, I just labelled it as "behind". The 3510A is not as old, hats off to your 100.

What is the multicast status of the Big 4 networks in Seattle? We have a thread going in the Programming forum trying to pick the best market for OTA HD. The latest criteria we're using to narrow down the Top 10 is multicasting. For now, we're allowing a weather radar channel for 1080i networks (CBS, NBC) and we're allowing a weather radar and 1 SD channel for 720p networks (ABC, FOX). How does Seattle stack up?

I just did a scan last night and found that ABC, NBC and CBS are all multicasting. ABC appears to be multicasting a national news feed, NBC is duplicating their SD feed and CBS just has a static camera at the airport for right now.

Also, the Seattle PBS station multicasts 3 SD subchannels (no HD) during the day and changes to 1 HD and 1 SD evenings and nights.

Sunday morning, Q13 is not broadcasting the NFL game in HD or 5.1 currently. Very frustrating b/c Fox usually gets this right.


Whats the deal Q13?

Joe Buck just told me I was watching "Fox broadcasting in 720p the finest HD standard with DD 5.1" too bad I am NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's go FOX get this game up in HD!

Ahh.. they got it up finally...

Radtek - I just talked to a friend who works at Yelm Tel about their testing to send out TV. Even with their 100 ft. tower and 12 yagi's they are having trouble with KIRO and some with KING. Guess it's not just us home owners with our roof tops.