It has been my experience in Va. Beach before I moved that most of the NBC stuff is in DD 5.1. I think that the problem lies in the Sat. Decoder for their HD feeds. I think their audio decoder/encoder is out of adjustment, not wired correctly.

Dave I have the same thing on WSAV, ER is on now and all voice is from left rear.
Dave send info to GCOFFMAN@WSAV.com

The lady I spoke with was in the Simpsonville, SC office. She said the memo was passed out at their morning meeting. I wouldn't think it would be a old memo. You all could be right but lets wait until July 20 and see.
They may be starting HDTV broadcasting, but I woundn't count on the Locals being on there from day 1 or 365.

One would think that the stations digital signal(1's+0's) could be received OTA and retransmitted by Charter without losing any part of signal. They are now receiving the analogy signal OTA.

all the stations get the network feeds Via sat. then the station pass that signal to 10 boxes before it is sent OTA

On WSAV I'm only getting stereo indicators showing stereo audio. Great sound when in stereo. Law and Order came on with no center channel. I only hear sounds for my right and left speakers, no rear sounds either. Still have stereo leds on and not 5.1.

I had no voice from law and order, just background music, ok when going to local station break

I spoke with WSAV news dept and he said he would notify engineering. Now there voices are coming from my right rear.

They sure had messed up sound on the race sat nite, voice was from left rear

Went by Charter yesterday and was told they were moving on July 9th over on Hwy 170 in the old office supply building next to Advance Auto. Also said they would have the HD boxes after the move. I asked about locals and was told they would have Savannah stations but Charleston would be a problem.

Last night was good for long dist stations.
I watched 12-1 from Jax Fl. from 8- 12 PM Law and Order was DD5.1 and it works.
Bryan I now have OTA EPG on 3 Jax stations 12-1, 25-1 and 7-1

The latest software update has all but ruined my enjoyment that used to be my 921. I no longer have data that I had before (I subscribe to locals) and it locks up constantly. I wish it would die so I could use it as an excuse to get a 942.

Bryan swing your ant SE and see if you can pick up any stations from Jax. I am watching 12-1 now it is on DTV ch13 also 4-1 DTV 42 and 25-1 DTV 10 If you can get a signal and store them you will find the EPG for them tomorrow.

Bryan from your location you need to swing your ant 40 deg south from where you get Sav. Sav is 137 deg Jax is 177 deg. from Statesboro

I'm at work Jim. I am leaving shortly though.

My 921 died last night. This is becoming a fiasco!!!!

Did you pull the plug for a few min. and reboot?

I did everything but throw it in the yard. Thats happening after the tech leaves that will probably replace my superdish. I cant wait till he gets here and sees that its on the roof ( on the side of the chimney.
He just called and is on the way. Wish me luck because Im going in the attic this morning. He is supposed to align the dish at 61.5 but Ive got to run the new switch into the attic so I will have power.

good luck Bryan

Alright first things first. The tech replaced the plastic dish with a metal one and that was the ticket. He said it was the LNBF and not the plastic. Got the 61.5 dish tweaked and the switch installed. It didnt need power the way I thougt so it was an easy install (no attic). I am vooming.

While waiting this morning and looking at the T.V. I thought of something, SMART CARD! I pulled it out, it started breathing again and what'll you know, check switch and I have a picture again. I have no idea what happened but its working.

Let me know what you think of the voom chs, I have all the stuff just need to put up my 61.5 dish

Jim, so far Im not real enthused about Voom. I like Rave and RushHD? Other than those two there is not much for me. I can see other channels that might interest some but not others. Thats only from two days of it though.

Sound for race on WSAV is all messed up, DD5 is voice from rear, from TV is like from a 10 ft pipe .

I have audio issues with WSAV as well. When WSAV is broadcasting HD & 5.1 audio, I hear
a fairly long duration echo. I'm not monitoring in 5.1 at present, but my HD receivers Dolby
decoder is downmixing 5.1 to Rt & Lt. From Jim's post I gather he is hearing this even if one
was to be actually monitoring 5.1 surround. I called WSAV last week and was not impressed
with the engineer that I talked to.

I get an echo on 5.1 stuff like Law and Order. I get voices from the rear on non 5.1 like News or a show at 7:00. Its horrible. Thank the lord for me being able to get Augusta. Man the race last weekend and this weekend was something else as far as sound (from Augusta).

They did not have the Bush race in HD, someone forgot to flip a switch

Bryan do you get a EPG for the Augusta station

No, I dont get EPG for anything since the last software update. I used to get Savannah. As youve probably read, they are fixing it now. I have to resort to your directions for recording again.

I am going to take a shot at OTA HD and could use your help. I am a subscriber to D* Tv so I will be using their receiver. I live just off of Hilton Head. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. It will be about 35' above sea level. What type of antenna should I use? Any specific models? should I use a "booster"? What type of performance should I expect? My friend tried this and the best he could do was 60% signal strength which would come and go. He has basically given up.

Any insight you guys could provide would be appreciated. Thanks!

Ed, is there absolutely no way to go outside with it? You could even try something like square shooter. Its not very big and can blend in well, maybe even be able to paint it.
Ive been told that you lose almost 50% signal right off the bat in the attic so it would be a test. Jim is the one to explain the basics and what might work since he is in your neck of the woods.

I have a friend here in Statesboro that I gave my old channel master wing looking antenna. I mounted it in the attic and he is barley scraping by with a 60% or so signal on a Dish 811. I will help in any way I can though.

This is the one that I gave my friend

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3010.jpg

edbloomer
I would try a Radio Shack U75 (2160 I think) for $25 or the best ant CM 4228
I would not use attic, it will cut signal by 50% or more.
Do not use amp unless you need it then only a CM 7775
All the stations are UHF so only get a UHF ant .
I will look up the R/S pn and send it in a few min

The rat shack pn for U75 is 15-2160 DO NOT let them talk you into a funny looking HDTV ant. any ant works for HD. The 2160 will out do the wing thing by far.

Jim...I was telling him about how the wing thing would do...terrible. My friend now wishes that he would have listened and put it outside. I may still use that antenna but at least get it outside.

In other words Ed, DO NOT GET THE WING THING. :D

Thanks for the quick responses!

I guess another question I should ask is when do you think we will see Savannah HDTV channels/broadcasts carried by Direct? That would let me know if I should wait or go ahead with either an "inexpensive" or a "better" (maybe) approach. The way it sounds right now, hardly anyone is able to watch and listen to OTA HDTV on a consistent basis and you guys put a lot more effort in to this than I would care to, especially if I am not sure of the results I am going to get. There appears to be very little HDTV being broadcast right now by the networks and the HDTV I get from Direct is very good although there are a number of special network broadcasts. I would like to be able to have access to.

In any event, I certainaly know what antenna NOT to buy! Thanks for that!

It will be a while before Direct has the Savannah locals in HD. You could always "move" to Atlanta and get their locals in HD. Jim is the expert on these things, Im just stalling until he returns. :D

To me its worth it though. I like most all the prime time shows on WTOC and they have been the "pioneer" for Savannah. They have been on since Ive had my HDTV and at full power no less. I have got them for about 3 years now. I honestly felt that we would be surprised 2 weeks ago and we would be on here talking about all the HD we could get. We were not surprised, they failed to come through.

After saying all that, if you are bound and determined to have at least CBS and NBC then go for it. I think the little bit of investment is worth watching college football on CBS come September. :D

It will be a while before Direct has the Savannah locals in HD. You could always "move" to Atlanta and get their locals in HD. Jim is the expert on these things, Im just stalling until he returns. :D

Actually that is incorrect. Moving to Atlanta will do you absolutely no good. The channels will be spot beamed to the Atl metro only. The new D* spot beams for LIL and very specific and I doubt they would reach all the way to Savannah. Also, D* hasn't even started this yet and it will probably be next year before they get to ATL and GET A DEAL signed with all the stations. It took Comcast years to get a deal done with WSB2.

The best solution would be to move to New York City. The NYC locals in SD and HD are on the national CONUS beam with can be recieved anywhere in the CONtinetal United States. When I say move, I do not mean physically move, I mean change your address to an address in or around NYC. Then change your billing address to your current address. D* turns a blind eye to this as all they want is your money and all you want is picture and to the FCC/networks the address matches the locals you should recieve. If you need more info on this feel free to email me.

Hey Ed, nevermind spending all that money on a move to Atlanta just go to NYC (I dont mean really move either). ;)

I am with Bradley on this one, it will be years before you get any HD from stations in Sav. from D or E.
When did they change this forum ?

As for spotbeams, they have diff. size and shape.
I know the D spotbeam for Raleigh NC is very low here (50s) while the one for E is maxed out and still strong down to Ocala Fl (60s) (119 tp 7)

Before I email WTOC...are yall having audio dropouts on WTOC at night? I noticed it this weekend and again last night. I went to Augusta CBS, WTOC analog(11) and WTOC subchannel (02) and its not there.

Yes, yes, and yes. Seems to happen without any specific timing or reason.

And I swear that the WSAV Audio feeds are reversed. As in DD surounds on 3-1 and primary L/R/C on 3-2 weather radar!

The audio sure sounds better on 3-2 than 3-1

i would lay a bet that their encoder is incorrectly set up and is splitting up the Bitstream audio between 3-1 & 3-2 instead of leaving them all on 3-1.

I watched Joey last night and the audio sounded great. I dont know if its been tinkered with or what but it did sound 100 % better.

I am off to FL. see U all next week

WSAV's audio has improved for me as well. At present I'm still in stereo, though soon I will be able to report on 5.1 channel assignments :)

Let us know. It couldnt have sounded much better last night. I dont even know if Joey is 5.1 (I dont normally watch Joey). I kept switching to that and 3.2 to see y'all getting pummeled by the rain again last night.

Good point, I may have spoken too soon. I should have stayed up until Jay Leno,
to know if anything is indeed different. Although last week just about everything
in prime time had an echo for me. Even Joey & Will and Grace.

I noticed something last night on WSAV. I have always got an idicator that the sound is dolby digital (not that they were broadcasting in DD 5.1). Last night my receiver said it was PRO LOGIC II just like all the rest of my OTA stations. Wonder what happened??? nogascans???

Tonight Law and Order has no center channel on 3-1but there center channel is on channel 3-2. I have to agree that their decoder is not wired correctly.

Hmmmm.....
Just sitting here watching CBS (WTOC) 11.1 and its the Jackie Gleason Special. For sure its DD 5.1 sound.

But flip to NBC (WSAV) and its definitely rear DD surrounds on 3-1 and DD Front LCR on 3-2 weather radar. I'll send a email to JIM over at WASV and let hime know.

Dave

Professional broadcasters are supposed to acknowledge "technical difficulties" put
up a message to let us viewers know that WSAV is aware of them and are working to fix them?

Does anyone at WSAV watch their own television station! :rolleyes:

I jinxed the hell out of it the other day when I said that it sounded great, sorry. :mad:

Audio was excellent last night. I'm sorry about the rant on my part, but this has
persisted for a least a month now. Just guessing at things is not a timely way
of fixing technical problems.. :(

All we need now is for WTOC to start transmittting in DD5.1.

Got back from Fl last night and found the top half of WSAV black, bottom had picture

You werent the only one. Never seen that before. The subchannel with radar was fine though.

Bryan did the sw update get your OTA EPG back.

I meant to let you know- Yes, it did. BTW I do get the others that are out of Savannah market also. My wierd problem with lock-ups has disappeared also.

Good no change here, still get listing for Jax, and Orlando. None that have locals on 105

Just a note that last night we had good DD sound on both WSAV & WTOC with the Dean Martin/Jerry Lewis & Law & Order. WSAV did have a video issue at 10:00 ( I think!) with Crossing Jordan as it was a 16:9 Letterbox inside of a 4:3 panel box. Maybe someone forgot to hit the "switch"

Dave

I have yet to get any center ch from Jay Leno, just r&l ft

Jim thats amazing! I'm still down mixing DD to Rt & Lt.. Trying to find a componet
Dolby Digital (AC-3) decoder. Everything local either has amps built in, or what I've
found "googling" is quite expensive...
So I have no idea if WSAV has a center channel or not...Although concerning
WSAV this is no surprize. :)

I did watch ER last night on WSAV, they seem to have serious issues with
their Dolby Digital encoder--They don't seem to understand 5.1 audio at all!

I was able to get 12-1 NBC from Jax Fl. last night, it had good 5-1 on Jay Leno. WSAV was bad no center ch and sound from R & L ft had hollow sound, like from a 50 ft pipe

I see WTOC now has 11- 3 and get no picture on WSAV 3-1/3-2

Same here Jim. I thought it might be our weather but I guess not. I havent seen 11-3 yet but 11-2 to out for me.

EDIT: I see that tube tv has moved to 11-3...

Charter has been up since July 21 with HDTV and locals are to come later. All channels working great.

WSAV seems to change their DD encoder on a daily basis, again last night I had no
dialogue or center channel. Even though I am only currently downmixing to (Rt & Lt).
I have learned, the center is part of the downmix equation, so I have the ability
to monitor all five discrete audio channels.

I sounds real bad if going to a 5-1 system ,voice is very low and away from where it should be.
And WSAV is the only station that sounds that way

Last night WSAV had center channel placed somewhere, anyway thanks for the
info "oljim" :)

Y'all might have said this already but it seems that anything that is 5.1 is fine but now, a show in just stereo, like news or Dr. Phil, is terrible. Is that what everyone is hearing or is it bad all around.
I think it was Law and Order Sunday night that sounded great but something last night (I dont remember what) sounded bad.

I think possibly there are two ingredients to WSAV's audio. First I'm guessing their
"Master control operator" is manually switching their Dolby Digital encoder from
(2/0 to 3/2.1)... Anyway
last night I had no center for the first 10 minutes of (Law & Order) then center ch
appeared after the "Master control operator" throws his/her (2/0 or 3/2.1) switch
on the Dolby Digital encoder.

Also the (10ft pipe) or (echo) effect may ge connected to other info I have found
on AVS forum stating that NBC has encoded their programs (on the network end)
with too much delay in the surrounds (Ls & Rs) so that when (downmixing or decoding) is done the
(difference in incidental five channel audio) is un-natural.

"oljim" claims to hear the echo on a 5.1 system and this makes me think WSAV
cannot seem to identify and assign their DD encoder with the correct channels. :)

Last night ER had good 5.1 till the station break, then R &L front, no center ch

Same here Jim, WTH! Thank goodness I have Augusta to fall back on. ;)

WSAV-Yes, last night ER was ok for me. The commercials should have no center,
because they are only stereo, when in station breaks, then back to 5.1 for HD programs.
I am really in a bad RF spot in Savannah, I can only get WSAV digital OTA. I'm in
the thunderbolt area. So for me, WSAV has a more robust signal at least with
my current address. I need to move. Those info-mercials repeats are un-believable!

WSAV had good coverage of Indy NASCAR today. Audio was spot on!

I watched WTOC tonight (Cold Case ) and they had definitely had issues for SD/HD Switch at commercial break! I called a few times and Master Control seems to have a quick fix on the switch back to HD, but not sure they know why it doen't go back to HD after commercial break!
Deep Impact was listed as in HD on TitanTV but no go locally.

Anyone having occasional audio dropouts on WTOC? Definitely with feed since my DD receiver unlocks during dropout for a second

Dave

Hello Guys and ladies of course. I am a new soldier in this battle for HDTV. I just came on line with a TV and a DirecTV STB. For the life of me I thought I was doing something wrong to not be getting all the channels. But I gather from what ive been reading I wont be able to get them for some time. Are there any new updates? so far I am receiving CBS and NBC with no problems. Although I am using a old set of rabbit ears with a small amp attached. I bought a new fangled antenna from Terk but I took it back once I found out that it didn't work any better than my old antenna. I live in Pt Wentworth right off I 95. If anyone has any tips for me im more than happy to listen.

Your getting all you can right now. ABC and FOX seem to be in no hurry and will throw a waiver in your face if you mention they should have been full power as of 1 July! :D

Hang in there and pray with the rest of us.

So im guessing the waiver thing the rep from dtv threw at me was jus t a ploy? i have no chance of getting HD from another market. im reading that some guys have tried the "moving" thing. i have a DVR as well so if i want to keep tive the moving thing is out.

Many have "moved". It works but I wouldnt want to try and explain. Someone here can though, give it till this afternoon and someone will post. I "moved" my dad to Atlanta but I knew all the questions that might be asked... :D

I would doubt the waiver would fly. I cant remember reading it here but have read it other places. Good luck and hang around. There is a pile on info here!

Hello Guys and ladies of course. I am a new soldier in this battle for HDTV. I just came on line with a TV and a DirecTV STB.

It sounds like you are using a OTA "over the air" ATSC terrestrial HDTV receiver, when you say DirectTV STB,,I may be wrong here but I think this is refereing to
a payed service OTA digital delivery medium...

Also as stated, the other networks are yet to go full power, thus why at this point you only get CBS & NBC..

I live in a apartment and all I can get now is WSAV, even though I'm not very far
from the core of Savannah downtown..

I will look for a follow up from you...

thomas

I have a direct TV satellite box that gets the hi def stuff and also subscribe to the local channel package.
I have been informed that I wont be able to get the other hi def locals until they come on line.......whenever that will be. Which is horrible no ABC means no Monday night football in hi def. I can only watch the insects for so long.......

I've said it before..... We should all go down to the Savannah ABC/FOX Station one slow news day and picket them for their utter ignorance on the DTV OTA Broadcast issues. Their continued use of FCC extensions, something the FCC intended for only the poorest "hardship" communities Broadcasters, is a slap in the face of American Taxpayers.
It would probably make for some good press for WSAV & WTOC and probably get picked up by their newscasts, as well as Savannah area newspapers.

I'll certainly volunteer my time!
Dave

is there anyone here that can tell me when they think we might be able to pick up PBS? i was doing some reasearch and it looks like they were supposed to start on 7/8.

is there anyone here that can tell me when they think we might be able to pick up PBS? i was doing some reasearch and it looks like they were supposed to start on 7/8.

Of what year? They lack the funds, so don't hold your breath. In Atlanta the Fulton County Board of Education owned station is HD digital and for a couple of months they used the PBS HD feed. Now, they can't afford to buy programming so they are upconverting there SD signal.

is there anyone here that can tell me when they think we might be able to pick up PBS? i was doing some reasearch and it looks like they were supposed to start on 7/8.

According to Antennaweb.org, all the GPTV stations has pushed back their digital start times several times, but currently, they have a start date of July, 2008.

~Alan

hey guys,
just a heads up, any of you that have direct tv may want to jump over to the recorder and players board. there is a pretty good special that direct is running a hd tivo for 199.99 its true because i called yesterday and got mine.

Charter Cable in Beaufort will add WTOC, WSAV and ETV to HDTV lineup on September 7th.

I am a Statesboro resident . I have dishnetwork, and am considering upgrading to a new hdtv and dish hd receiver. I do not currently have an over the air antenna. Considering the paucity of hdtv programming, even on satellite, as well as the lack of consistant, quality hdtv programming out of Savannah, do you think the upgrade is worth it at this time? If so, what programming can I expect to get from over the air channels from savannah (even augusta maybe) and what, in addition to the hd dish receiver, will i need to get those? It will be disappointing to only get a few channels off the satellite, and no abc/cbs/nbc/fox (ie, no college or pro football!). Is there any way to get the local networks in hd off the satellite? What about the networks from some other location (still not ideal, as cbs out of NY may be carring a different game than cbs in Savannah)? Any assistance you can provide will greatly appreciated!

I am a Statesboro resident . I have dishnetwork, and am considering upgrading to a new hdtv and dish hd receiver. I do not currently have an over the air antenna. Considering the paucity of hdtv programming, even on satellite, as well as the lack of consistant, quality hdtv programming out of Savannah, do you think the upgrade is worth it at this time? If so, what programming can I expect to get from over the air channels from savannah (even augusta maybe) and what, in addition to the hd dish receiver, will i need to get those? It will be disappointing to only get a few channels off the satellite, and no abc/cbs/nbc/fox (ie, no college or pro football!). Is there any way to get the local networks in hd off the satellite? What about the networks from some other location (still not ideal, as cbs out of NY may be carring a different game than cbs in Savannah)? Any assistance you can provide will greatly appreciated!

I was not pleased with the quantity/quality of HD programming from DISH and OTA broadcasts from Savannah. Since I was not under contract I terminated DISH and returned to Hargray Cable. They promise to offer HD channels in near future but no time frame.

Some folks in this forum have written about getting HD networks via sattelite by changing street address. Maybe they can give you a rosier outlook on HD broadcasts.

From what I see posted here, WSAV is the most robust signal in the market for terrestrial OTA HDTV. It is true the number of true 16:9 HD source programming is
limited now. But most of their premier and prime time stuff is 720P or better.

Also PBS is yet to come on line with their DTV channel, and on the SM of PBS they
have some of the best looking video second to none.

This leaves two other Commercial stations, which from what I've have read here, have yet to go full power (ERP). OTA is possible, unless one is in a bad RF (spot)with perspective to the transmitter site.

thomas

For OTa I would go with the CM4228 ant and 9521 rotor, that should get Sav and Augusta stations, I would go with the Dish 942 DVR. Dish have a HD package for $10 and a 11 ch Voom package (second dish needed)
Brayon can give you info on the voom ch

thanks for the input. if I go with the antenna and dish receiver, where does the antenna input go--into my tv or into the dish receiver (ie, does it accept and tune an ota hdtv signal)? if the tv is only a hdtv monitor or "hd ready" and does not have a built in hd tuner, then I assume I will need an external hd tuner? if so, any suggestions on which one?

bdmd,

I think these are two different delivery mediums.

1) OTA (Free) ATSC terrestrial broadcast -one needs a least (amplified) rabbit ears or external yagi directional antenna. With an ATSC receiver or tuner>
*) One would normally like a true 16:9 native display with analog componet input.

2) payed direct digital satellite, uses a parabolic dish-direct line of site/satellite.
I think some local channels are provided, I'm not sure about Savannah local content on direct dish network.

thomas

The DISH HD sat rcvr has a built in OTA HD tuner. So it has two coax inputs. One for sat in and the other for Ant in.

A tV with built in HD tuner gives you ability and flexibility to receive OTA HD w/o need for external tuner. This might be important if ever a situation arises and you want HD w/o using DISH HD rcvr for external tuner.

I you have it done by a so called Pro installer, do NOT let them use diplexers. Run a cable from OTA in to the dish rec. then you can add an amp if needed.

If this is the wrong forum for this question, I apologize.

I live just off Hilton Head. I am a direct TV subscriber and have a direct tv HD Receiver. I have installed a high gain, directional UHF antenna in my attic. I would like to keep it in my attic if at all possible. I have connected it directly to my HDTV Receiver with 100 feet of RG6 Coax. I have not used a booster.

I have been able to receive HDTV broadcast of WSAV and sometimes WTOC. WSAV comes in strong, 80 to 90% on the receiver signal meter. WTOC is weaker 45-55% and sometimes I can't get it at all after I adjusted the antenna in an attempt to try to get a better signal. From what I get from antenna web, WSAV is much closer to me than WTOC (20 miles vs. 35 miles) and they are broadcasting from locations that are about 20 degrees apart in relationship to my antenna. Yet I seem to get the best signal from both stations with the antenna pointed in one direction.

Should I expect better performance? Should I consider a booster? Any other suggestions? Thanks!

Antenna web has some bad info, Wsav and Wtoc have the towers down near I-95 and I-16 only a mile or so apart. From where you are they would be in a stright line.
What ant do you have? The attic can reduse range by %50 or more.
I would move ant. outside before you spend money on a ant amp.

Jim:

Thanks for the clarification on the transmitter locations.

The antenna is going to have to stay in the attic. With that as a limitation, I am open to any suggestions which will help me receive WTOC while still being able to continue to receive WSAV. The antenna is a UE-MX91 which I purchased from Antennas Direct. It is advertised as a "Extreme Gain, Large, Directional, UHF Antenna". It has two corner reflector screens. It's maximum gain is 16.7 db. It is now connected directly to my receiver with 150 feet of RG6. I moved it to another attic location in an attempt to eliminate any roofing material and minimize the amount of wood between it and the direction of the transmitter. I am still receiving WSAV at a steady 77% level and of course the picture is rock solid. WTOC is bouncing between 0% and 45%. The picture never really locks in.

Does this sound right since the transmitters are apparently close to one another? Are they both transmitting at the same power? I am about 27 miles from the intersection of I-95 and I-16. It doesn't seem to me that an antenna amplifier would help this problem. Is there any rule of thumb on how much improvement can be realized from an antenna amplifier? How critical is the aiming of this type of antenna? Any tricks to doing that? Is there any difference between vertical or horizontal mounting? Do you know of anyone else who ran into this type problem? Could it be related to the different frequencies the signals are transmited at?

I am perplexed. Thanks!

It could be the frequencies, WTOC is on ch 15 and WSAV is 39.
Not sure about watts but WSAV is full power and WTOC is not.
Why do you have so much RG-6 ? I have a 36 ft tower and only use 65 ft
Do you have any pine trees in line to towers?
That ant will have very narrow beam , aiming is important you should be pointing at 247 deg.
I can get both stations with a small R/S 2160 5 ft off the ground and you have 10-12 miles less distance to towers.
I would get it outside, see what direction is best and work from that.
I get 5-1 and 7-1 from Charleston, both on same tower but best signal is 5 deg differance from 5-1 to 7-1 I have a rotor.

Jim:

I do have pine trees in the area. Perhaps it is a combination of the difference in the power WTOC is operating at, combined with obstructions I have between me and the towers. I'll continue to try to tweek my arrangement and may try to see what happens with a temporary outside setup. If it wasn't for the fact that WSAV is so strong I would blame my problem on the antenna being inside or the length of the RG-6 or obstructions. The different power seems to be the major difference.

The reason for the length of the cable is that I am trying to minimize the number of walls and roofs between the antenna and the towers and the place I have the receiver is fixed. I may try a booster to overcome that but again, it doesn't seem to be a problem with WSAV.

Thanks for your help. I'll let you know if I make any progress.

Good luck

Checking the FCC website, WSAV 39 is licensed for 1000KW and WTOC 15 is licensed for 422KW. Talking with WTOC engneer that all the power they will get. There is a big difference in there signal on my set also.

I added an amp, actually two, I got from Radio Shack between my antenna and receiver and WTOC is now at 64% and WSAV is at 100%. I can watch WTOC at that level. Thanks for the information, feedback and assistance!

Real bad audio sync on WSAV new show E-Ring last night

is anybody picking up upn 34-1? it popped up on my channel list last night. but im not getting a signal. which is not saying much since my antenna is only a set of glorified rabbit ears.

Do you have call letters for 34-1, did you do a channel scan?

I do have call letters is was WGSA i belive out of baxley,ga. my attena may not be strong enough im wondering if anybody else in savannah is getting it.

Baxley is UPN. I havent noticed it in mine. I did get 19 at one point, but I deleted it from my list.

Ill try UPN when I get home tonight.

I could not get that channel to lock.

Maybe its not at full power yet. i really didnt do anything i just came home one day and my direct tv box had it on the listing. i cant get it either. as soon as i can i will get a stronger antenna and do some tests.

What is the DTV ch # for 34-1

35???

Tks Bryan will give it a try.



Jim

35 is correct.

No luck with 34-1 I am 100 miles from station

Eddie how are the HD networks on Charter

WSAV and WTOC are coming great. WSAV is still having audio problems from time to time. I can't tell any differences than watching OTA. Have you heard anything when WJWJ will go digital?

I had given up on OTA HD until I read that RS has HD rcvrs on clearance for about $99. Picked up one and it worked great. Jerry rigged a RS UHF antenna on pole about 8' off ground and short (25') cable run through window. Received broadcasts for WTOC, WSAV, and WJCL. Picture on WTOC is much better than cable. Even my skeptical wife could see the difference.

Will I be able to get WTGS and WGSA if I mount the antenna on the roof. Peak of roof is about 30' above grade. What about switching from directional to multidirectional antenna.

Jim are you getting WJCL in hi def?

I "wish/hope" WSAV could somehow get a handle on their AUDIO issues :)
After all DD is not rocket science. :confused:

thomas

I live in statesboro, and have my channelmaster3016 installed in my second story attic, with a direct run of 30ft of RG6 to my receiver. I am picking up WSAV at 100%, and WTOC at about 65-70% locked in. Based on what I've read here, that differece is likely due to the difference in transmission power between the 2 stations. However, I have no digital signal for Fox (WTGS), ABC (WJCL), PBS or UPN out of Baxley (did not check to see if I could get their analog signals),and my digital channel scan did not pick them up. Does anyone know if these are transmitting in HD? If so, what are their transmission numbers and digital channels? I just did the install last night, so I was wondering if they were just down at that time. My antenna is pointed at 136 degrees. Any news on when these are going HD, if they aren't already?

I am watching MNF on WJCL right now. Unfortunately it is a standard def broadcast over WJCL-DT comes in as 22-1. I think it is UHF channel 22 or 23.

I live in statesboro, and have my channelmaster3016 installed in my second story attic, with a direct run of 30ft of RG6 to my receiver. I am picking up WSAV at 100%, and WTOC at about 65-70% locked in. Based on what I've read here, that differece is likely due to the difference in transmission power between the 2 stations. However, I have no digital signal for Fox (WTGS), ABC (WJCL), PBS or UPN out of Baxley (did not check to see if I could get their analog signals),and my digital channel scan did not pick them up. Does anyone know if these are transmitting in HD? If so, what are their transmission numbers and digital channels? I just did the install last night, so I was wondering if they were just down at that time. My antenna is pointed at 136 degrees. Any news on when these are going HD, if they aren't already?Your getting all you can at this point. I'm glad you got those in the attic. I would guess next year on FOX and ABC. PBS has changed their live date to July of '08 (I assume that could change but thats the last date I've seen).

i have direct tv and sunday the feed on fox 28 for the cowboys- eagles game was so bad i wanted to drive to the station and bring someone out to my house. and im not even talking about my hi-def set. it looked horrible on my standard def set as well. it makes no sense why they deny waivers to out of market hi def stations especially since here in savannah we wont be eligible for locals in hi def for quite some time.

I had given up on OTA HD until I read that RS has HD rcvrs on clearance for about $99. Picked up one and it worked great. Jerry rigged a RS UHF antenna on pole about 8' off ground and short (25') cable run through window. Received broadcasts for WTOC, WSAV, and WJCL. Picture on WTOC is much better than cable. Even my skeptical wife could see the difference.

Will I be able to get WTGS and WGSA if I mount the antenna on the roof. Peak of roof is about 30' above grade. What about switching from directional to multidirectional antenna.
This is what we told you to do when you had the Dish 921.
WSAV 3-1 and WTOC 11-1 are the only stations putting out HD
Keep the ant you have now.

WSAV and WTOC are coming great. WSAV is still having audio problems from time to time. I can't tell any differences than watching OTA. Have you heard anything when WJWJ will go digital?
They are working on it now Jim, My signal on ch 16 is not as strong as it was so the must be working at the tower

I live in statesboro, and have my channelmaster3016 installed in my second story attic, with a direct run of 30ft of RG6 to my receiver. I am picking up WSAV at 100%, and WTOC at about 65-70% locked in. Based on what I've read here, that differece is likely due to the difference in transmission power between the 2 stations. However, I have no digital signal for Fox (WTGS), ABC (WJCL), PBS or UPN out of Baxley (did not check to see if I could get their analog signals),and my digital channel scan did not pick them up. Does anyone know if these are transmitting in HD? If so, what are their transmission numbers and digital channels? I just did the install last night, so I was wondering if they were just down at that time. My antenna is pointed at 136 degrees. Any news on when these are going HD, if they aren't already?
Fox is DTV 27 ABC is 23 and UPN is 35

I live in statesboro, and have my channelmaster3016 installed in my second story attic, with a direct run of 30ft of RG6 to my receiver. I am picking up WSAV at 100%, and WTOC at about 65-70% locked in. Based on what I've read here, that differece is likely due to the difference in transmission power between the 2 stations. However, I have no digital signal for Fox (WTGS), ABC (WJCL), PBS or UPN out of Baxley (did not check to see if I could get their analog signals),and my digital channel scan did not pick them up. Does anyone know if these are transmitting in HD? If so, what are their transmission numbers and digital channels? I just did the install last night, so I was wondering if they were just down at that time. My antenna is pointed at 136 degrees. Any news on when these are going HD, if they aren't already?
All the stations in Sav and Augusta are UHF.
If you put a UHF ant. and rotor on your roof you should get both Sav and Augusta HD stations.

oljim,
I wonder if putting the CM4228 on a rotor in the attic would let me get augusta, and would it increase the signal strength from WTOC? I thought about the CM3020, but I don't think I have room for it, as it is 155" long (plus it is uhf/vhf, and i don't need the vhf, but so is the 3016; is the uhf reception about the same b/w the 4228 and 3020, b/c both are listed at about 60miles/deep fringe). Bryan, how strong is your signal from WTOC and from Augusta, and what antenna do you have? I think I can tell a difference in picture quality b/w wtoc and wsav, but it may be in my head b/c I thought that with digital, you either have great picture or no picture. also, last night on Surface, 8-9 on wsav, audio was screwed up with only sound from left and right rears, no dialogue, but Vegas at 9-10 was perfect.

oljim,
I wonder if putting the CM4228 on a rotor in the attic would let me get augusta, and would it increase the signal strength from WTOC? I thought about the CM3020, but I don't think I have room for it, as it is 155" long (plus it is uhf/vhf, and i don't need the vhf, but so is the 3016; is the uhf reception about the same b/w the 4228 and 3020, b/c both are listed at about 60miles/deep fringe). Bryan, how strong is your signal from WTOC and from Augusta, and what antenna do you have? I think I can tell a difference in picture quality b/w wtoc and wsav, but it may be in my head b/c I thought that with digital, you either have great picture or no picture. also, last night on Surface, 8-9 on wsav, audio was screwed up with only sound from left and right rears, no dialogue, but Vegas at 9-10 was perfect.
Before WSAV went to full power, I got WTOC at 107 or so (DISH 921). Now I get WSAV at 125 and WTOC at 75. I have no idea why. Augusta is at 112-115 constantly on both CBS and NBC. I still have a Radio Shack VU-190 with a pre-amp, but I do have a CM4228 in the garage just waiting for cooler weather (to get on the roof). Jason L. just got his up last week and its outside. He had it just above his roof line and got WTOC perfect but no-go with WSAV. I told him to put it up higher and he did. He is now maxed out with both of them. He said he went up one more pole so I'd assume 10 feet.

This is what we told you to do when you had the Dish 921.
WSAV 3-1 and WTOC 11-1 are the only stations putting out HD
Keep the ant you have now.

You were right. Just had to get the antenna higher off the ground.

oljim,
I wonder if putting the CM4228 on a rotor in the attic would let me get augusta, and would it increase the signal strength from WTOC? I thought about the CM3020, but I don't think I have room for it, as it is 155" long (plus it is uhf/vhf, and i don't need the vhf, but so is the 3016; is the uhf reception about the same b/w the 4228 and 3020, b/c both are listed at about 60miles/deep fringe). Bryan, how strong is your signal from WTOC and from Augusta, and what antenna do you have? I think I can tell a difference in picture quality b/w wtoc and wsav, but it may be in my head b/c I thought that with digital, you either have great picture or no picture. also, last night on Surface, 8-9 on wsav, audio was screwed up with only sound from left and right rears, no dialogue, but Vegas at 9-10 was perfect.
I would not bother with attic, it can kill 1/2 your signal

Bryan I have the same thing with WTOC, my signal never goes over 90. It was always over 100. before
Another thing I have found, I can turn my ant to Jax (30 deg off Sav.) and still get WTOC in the 70s but WSAV drops off below 70.
With ant pointed at Sav WTOC is 85 WSAV is 125

Bryan I have the same thing with WTOC, my signal never goes over 90. It was always over 100. before
Another thing I have found, I can turn my ant to Jax (30 deg off Sav.) and still get WTOC in the 70s but WSAV drops off below 70.
With ant pointed at Sav WTOC is 85 WSAV is 125Yep, same with me for Augusta. CBS stays in a range to lock, but NBC disappears. There is no happy medium.

Bryan/Oljim,
Are you guys saying that you are able to get stations in JAX and/or Augusta?

Charlston, Jax,Columbia, Sav and Oralando

Only Augusta for me, but I havent really tried anything else. I may when I finally get the other antenna up.

Bryan turn your ant S and give Jax a try 4-1 7-1 12-1 and 25-1 are full power

Ok, give me a few days though. I'm leaving shortly for the Georgia Southern football game in Boone, NC. :D

I am going to get the antenna on the roof this weekend to see if I can get other stations too.

jim let me know how that works i am in port wentworth. so if it works for you it works for me too.

Just FYI for anyone in the Savannah DMA wishing to know how far the WTOC and WSAV digital signals now go. I'm in Vidalia, GA (about 66 air miles from the towers according to antennaweb) . Yesterday I installed a Channel Master 8-bay bow-tie antenna with the Titan 7775 UHF pre-amp in the attic of my two-story house. To my surprise I am getting 83 (out of 100) for WTOC-DT and 86 for WSAV-DT. Both signals are rock solid thus far on my DirecTV HD OTA receivers. I figured I had a 50-50 chance of getting anything this far out, especially from an attic installation. Now, if only ABC and FOX in Savannah would go digital high-power....

Just FYI for anyone in the Savannah DMA wishing to know how far the WTOC and WSAV digital signals now go. I'm in Vidalia, GA (about 66 air miles from the towers according to antennaweb) . Yesterday I installed a Channel Master 8-bay bow-tie antenna with the Titan 7775 UHF pre-amp in the attic of my two-story house. To my surprise I am getting 83 (out of 100) for WTOC-DT and 86 for WSAV-DT. Both signals are rock solid thus far on my DirecTV HD OTA receivers. I figured I had a 50-50 chance of getting anything this far out, especially from an attic installation. Now, if only ABC and FOX in Savannah would go digital high-power....

While not a full-time signal, I've managed to pick up WSAV-DT and WTOC-DT on occasion all the way over here using my DirecTV HD-TiVo and a Channel Master 4228 (with Channel Master 7777 UHF Pre-Amp).

~Alan

Well, my initial euphoria may have been premature with respect to the solid 80+ signals. During the heat of the day they have fallen to the mid to upper 50's for WTOCDT and around 40-45 for WSAVDT. Still, though, for an attic antenna at this distance (65 miles) that's pretty good I think. I now officially swear by the CM-4228 and the Titan line of preamps! :)

I am watching the Sunday afternoon football game in Hi-Def on WTOCDT 11-1 right now (2:29 pm) with no drop-outs. WSAVDT 3-1 is real hit and miss on my Hughes HTL-HD, while on my HR10-250 HD-Tivo it is pretty stable with some pixellation now and then and an occasional freeze due to signal loss. The HR10-250 definitely has the hotter OTA tuner of the pair. Last night and early this morning both receivers were performing great on both channels.

jim let me know how that works i am in port wentworth. so if it works for you it works for me too.

I did not get an oppurtunity to install it on the roof this weekend. Plan to pick up roof mount, pre-amp, and other supplies this week. I will keep you posted.

Jim, I had no luck with Jax stations. I will make it my mission this weekend to get the old one down and put up the 4228. It will be interesting to see if I can pick up something different then.

Alan, thats pretty good in the attic. Brian, you hear that... :) There is hope man!

Alan, thats pretty good in the attic.

Actually, mine is outside (though it's only about 12-13 feet off the ground!). Still, considering how far Savannah is from me, I'm still amazed that I even got them once, much less several times.

~Alan

Sorry, I misread though you're right, it is pretty good. Hell, I'm still trying to beat oljim! :D

Allan, did I see where you are just above or at Albany? Is that right? Dang, that is better than I thought.

Sorry, I misread though you're right, it is pretty good. Hell, I'm still trying to beat oljim! :D

Alan, did I see where you are just above or at Albany? Is that right? Dang, that is better than I thought.

That's correct! Dawson's 20 miles away from Albany (though I'm kind of between the two), though I'm on the opposite edge of the Albany DMA than Savannah... almost to the Columbus, GA DMA (check out Terrell County on this DMA map (http://ekb.dbstalk.com/TVMarkets/Maps/georgia.gif)).

It's only on occasion that I can pick up the Savannah stations, and depending on the Troposphere, I've managed to pick up stations from Atlanta, GA, Macon, GA, Augusta, GA, Dothan, AL Jacksonville, FL, Tampa, FL, Orlando, FL, Pensacola, FL and Gulfport, MS.

However, I've managed to pick up Savannah (only WSAV-DT and WTOC-DT) stations on several occasions, making it probably tied for the third easiest
DMA (of DMAs that I shouldn't be able to pick up) to receive.

Also, it's cool, because I'd like to visit Savannah one day!

~Alan

Bryan turn your ant S and give Jax a try 4-1 7-1 12-1 and 25-1 are full power

Fellas, I'm going to jump in with you on a regular basis on these discussions since I have been trying for 8 months to get more than just WTOC in HD. Albeit, very, very pleased with the fact that WSAV went high power in August, they still have problems. of course, I call both stations all the time since the manual switch at WTOC requires the person there to always be alert as to when to switch back to national feed, and the WSAV guy, even though they have an auto-switch, their AC3 5.1 is jacked and that has to be done manually. My constant phone calls have made a difference though, and both have improved exponentionally.

Although, since WTOC does 3 channels off one feed, they lowered their audio bitrate from 384kbps to 192kbps which kind of sucked; I guess for BW reasons.

But, as for the JAX channels, I really want to pick them up since I want 720p ABC for the most part. If anyone, regardless of cost, knows how to do this, I will be the ginnuea pig if need be, if there isn't a clear way in which to do this.

I'm 8 miles from the "antenna farm" with a POS little 'indoor' antenna that I have outside and I get 100% 03-1, 83% 11-1, and 56% 22-1.

Can't get WTGS (28-1) at all.

I will order CM 4228 and the 7777 amp, and anything else I need to get in order to get 720p ABC at 75% or better.

If there is a way to get 70%+ on UPN or WB as well from my location (Richmond Hill), let me know, and I will test it out.

thanks guys

I would also get a CM9521 rotor to move ant from your easy chair, It can be programed for 69 differant locations or stations.
Did not know we had a WB station???

DigiDish:

As close as you are to Savannah's TV tower farm, you may suffer overloading of your 7777 preamp that could ruin your reception. You will need a very tight beamwidth antenna you can aim at Jax and still not get any Savannah signal on the sidelobes. I've seen some folks report good results with horizontally stacked antennas. The horizontal stacking narrows the beamwidth both horizontally and vertically.

Digdish- We all feel your pain. Its a mission now to get an ABC and Fox station since we have been spoiled by HD from WTOC and WSAV. Unfortunately, I dont know enough about the physics to help. Let us know how it turns out though.

From the sound of it, I guess I can't get JAX stations then. Oh well. Nothing I can do about that except move, and that's not going to happen.

As for ABC and FOX in town, they're not going to have HD for at least a year or more; and more than likely two. I talked to the engineer over there, and they are not even really talking about it yet. Also, they don't have any immediate plans to go high power either.

CBS is not in the works for getting an auto-switch, and they don't have plans for an AC3 5.1 option either. So, I guess what we have now here, is not going to change any time soon.

So, based on the proximity that I am to the antennas here, I guess I don't have much of a chance of getting other stations? Like from adjacent cities? Are there any channels in Hilton Head or perhaps Charleston that are broadcasting in 720p or 1080i?

bmeeks8

As close as you are to Savannah's TV tower farm, you may suffer overloading of your 7777 preamp that could ruin your reception. You will need a very tight beamwidth antenna you can aim at Jax and still not get any Savannah signal on the sidelobes. I've seen some folks report good results with horizontally stacked antennas. The horizontal stacking narrows the beamwidth both horizontally and vertically.

I guess since JAX might not work, what do you recommend then so I can at least get 100% on all Savannah TV stations?

If you are in Richmond Hill, then a Channel Master CM-4228 should give you excellent reception from all the Savannah stations that are broadcasting digital. Well, maybe excepting FOX. I think they are really weak! You would not want a preamp where you are. Preamps are for weak signal areas. Strong local signals cause them to overload and the result wipes out both the locals and the distants.

Of course outside is the best location. Low-loss RG6 Quad Shield coax is good, too. You can pick this up at Lowes or Home Depot. Just make sure it's RG6 Quad Shield and not RG59. The RG6 cable is the thicker one. It also uses different sized connectors. Just look on the box and make sure what you get says it's for RG6 cable.

The closer you are to the towers, the more sensitive a high gain antenna becomes to proper orientation. This includes horizontal AND vertical. Point the antenna slightly up or down can sometimes make a big difference for close-in reception.

The CM-4228 is available on the web for around $48 plus shipping. I used Solid Signal for mine. Search for CM-4228 on Google and they will pop up near the top of the results.

Well, I just ordered some stuff

Channel Master CM 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna (CM4228) $ 48.99 1 $ 48.99
Channel Master CM 9521A Complete Antenna Rotator System with Infra-Red Remote Control (CM9521A) $ 89.99 1 $ 89.99
Channel Master CM 9554 Antenna Rotor Wire for CM9521A Rotor - 100 FT (CM9554-100) $ 12.99 1 $ 12.99
Channel Master CM 7775 Titan2 UHF Preamplifier with Power Supply (CM7775) $ 53.99 1 $ 53.99


We'll see how that works out for me. As for the preamp, I got it so I can see if I can get stations outside of here. Since all the antennas are directly north of me, perhaps by aiming it south, I can use the preamp to get something else
Who knows

I'll let you know what I can get when I get all the stuff in.

I live in Richmond Hill and have been getting wtoc and wsav for a few months on a indoor zenith silver senser antenna. My signal strength on wtoc is about 70 and on wsav it is in the 80's to 90. The only problem I have with wsav is every once in a while the signal strength will drop off to nothing for a second and then comes back. I don't know what is causing that. I don't think it is my receiver. I have the dish network 811. I was wanting to watch the world series in HD on fox but I guess there is no way to do that in Savannah unless you are on the cable system

Tom

DigiDish

I think you will be happy with the CM-4228 antenna. That's what I'm using way over here in Vidalia. It has a screen on the back that helps block signals from the rear, so if the Savannah stations are due north of you, perhaps you can get something by pointing it south. Hopefully the signals from Savannah won't overload the preamp. The Titan 7775 unit has excellent gain and a very low noise figure, but unfortunately it is one of the preamps that is most susceptible to overload (because of its high gain).

I have a DirecTV HR10-250 receiver that reads 0-100 for OTA signal strength. I've been checking every evening this past week and I'm getting 71-75 on WTOC and 85-88 on WSAV. At night both signals are pretty steady. During the day last weekend I saw them both jump around quite a bit and they averaged more like 54 for WTOC and 42 for WSAV. I'm around 65 miles from the towers there in Savannah (66 mi from WSAV and 64 mi from WTOC). Still, for an antenna in the attic about 30 feet off the ground, I'm still amazed it works at all.

Bill

Does anybody know what is the problem with WSAV DT in Savannah. They went to full power and I am getting in the 90's on the signal but everyonce in a while it drops off to nothing for a second or so and then comes back.

Tom

What ant do you have and where are you located

I live in Richmond Hill and have a zenith silver sensor antenna. My signal strength is in the 90's but it drops way off for just a second every once in a while and then comes right back on.

Tom

Why not spend 25$ for outside ant.

I don't need a outside antenna. I am getting 95 on the signal strength and live within a few miles of the station. Wsav is the only channel that does this so I know it is not a antenna problem because I am getting plenty of signal strength. I get Wtoc at 65 signal strength and it does not drop. Wsav comes in fine most of the time it is just at certain times that it drops completly down to no signal for a second or two and then it goes back up to about 95 on the signal strength meter. I have a outdoor antenna up in the attic that I am using for standard stations. I could use that if I thought the antenna was the problem.

Tom

I don't need a outside antenna. I am getting 95 on the signal strength and live within a few miles of the station. Wsav is the only channel that does this so I know it is not a antenna problem because I am getting plenty of signal strength. I get Wtoc at 65 signal strength and it does not drop. Wsav comes in fine most of the time it is just at certain times that it drops completly down to no signal for a second or two and then it goes back up to about 95 on the signal strength meter. I have a outdoor antenna up in the attic that I am using for standard stations. I could use that if I thought the antenna was the problem.

Tom

I had the same exact thing as you with an indoor antenna, WSAV-HD at 100%, but it would drop to zero every minute or so, very annoying to say the least. I took my POS indoor antenna (identical to yours) and stuck it outside and aimed it dead north right on the lip of my roof, and zero drops; 100% all the time (well, occasionally it will drop to 93%)

I just think the station shoots signal very narrowly (if that makes sense) so you need to catch it just right. As for outdoor antennas though, I bought the "2nd best one" that radio shack had for about 30 bucks or so. Its failry big, and is for outdoor or attic use. Well, I can't get crap with it, my little tiny, non-amplified, directional indoor antenna smokes it.

Speaking of which, when I was using an amplifier on my little fella I use, I couldn't get WSAV for crap, when I use it with no amp, I get it prefectly.

Hope that helps.

(Oh, and I've tried the attic with three different antennas, and none of them work well, its all about the roof outside, at least from my experience). And, you 'should' be getting WTOC-DT at 75% or better from Richmond Hill. I know I do.

Ok thank you I will try that. I tried the antenna in the attic and my silver sensor worked better I may have not had it turned in the right direction though. I figured mabe it was the long lead in length and also it is a yagi with the uhf on the back so it is not optimised for uhf.

Tom

I also think WSAV has a very narrow signal, I get WSAV at 125 when ant is pointed at 235 deg and WTOC at only 78-85. I turn my ant for Jax. 200 deg. I still get WTOC but not WSAV
Makes no sence to me but pointing the ant makes a big differance

I also think WSAV has a very narrow signal, I get WSAV at 125 when ant is pointed at 235 deg and WTOC at only 78-85. I turn my ant for Jax. 200 deg. I still get WTOC but not WSAV
Makes no sence to me but pointing the ant makes a big differance I have the same results when pointing North to Augusta. BTW, I do not have the dropouts with WSAV.

Amps can kill DTV signal if they have a hi noise output.
The CM Spartan line is not near as good as the Titan line.
Before you buy a amp look at the noise figure, if not under 2.5 DB forget it or does not give noise figure forget it.
The CM 7777 and 7775 are both 2 db, as good as you can get
A high gain amp will not make up for a low gain ant. noise in noise out

Be cautious with preamps in high signal areas. Preamps are designed for low signal areas like fringe and deep fringe reception. Close in to powerful transmitters, the preamps overload and distort the signal. That distorted signal is then almost impossible for your TV to decode. For WTOC and WSAV you don't need a preamp until you are at least 35 miles away. For me way out where I am (65 miles), my preamp is the difference between a signal and absolutely nothing. In Richmond Hill, a preamp will cause trouble with reception instead of helping it. Oljim makes a valid point that in deep fringe signal areas, the lower the noise figure the better.

The problems you guys have close in to the towers is caused by the way the transmitting antennas achieve high gain. They bend the signal down toward the horizon to maximize distance reception. That means, ironically, somebody living right next door to the tower could get worst reception that someone 20 miles away because a lot of the signal is in a horizontal "duct" in the sky above him. This is more pronounced with WSAV and WTOC since they have such tall towers. Now in practice there is usually enough signal left over and bounced around to paint some signal on sites near the tower. However, another factor near-in is multipath reception. This is signal bounced off multiple services and arriving at your antenna at slightly different times. These out-of-time waves combine and cause signal distortions. In old analog TV this caused ghosts in the image. With digital TV, it destroys the picture by scrambling up the bits. Again, ironically, the farther out you are the less problem you have with multipath (mostly because higher gain narrower beamwidth antennas are needed and these necessarily have narrower beamwidths). Near-in where people use much smaller indoor not-so-directional antennas, multipath becomes a big gotcha. Putting a moderately directional outside antenna up really helps with this.

For attic antennas, it is important that your house roof and walls have no metal in them. Unfortunately, two common materials in the south for walls are metal lathe with stucco on top, or foil-backed styrofoam insulation sheets underneath siding or brick. Either one kills reception in your attic if they extend up into the gable ends. Obviously, a metal roof does the same thing. However, if you don't have metal in the roof or walls, attic antennas can work quite well. I have one 65 miles out here in Vidalia and I get WSAV and WTOC just fine 90% of the time. I lose WSAV a little during the daylight hours. My roof is fiberglass shingles over plywood and roofing felt, and my gable walls are Hardiplank fiber cement siding over OSB.

Hey guys, I live at the South end of Skidaway Island, in South Harbor.

I hung an outdoor antenna in the attic and used an amp. Get WSAV at 90% but WTOC at 40% or less and it drops in and out.

I moved the antenna outside to the edge of my roof.
WSAV works fine, solid at 65%. But I can't get WTOC at all.

Make sense at all?

It's a driectional boom antenna from RS, about 44" long.

You might want to try it without an amp. You should be getting plenty of signal without the amp at your location. TO much power going into the receiver can cause a loss of signal as well. Just for the record, I live on Dutch Island and get good reception of SAV and TOC with a small indoor antenna on one TV and slightly better reception on the other TV that is hooked up to an attic antenna.

Good Luck,

Just an FYI. I went to bg's webpage and it remined me of something I saw over the weekend. WTOC now has the radar on sub channel 02. Its the crappy on the Pat uses, but its there.

Is your ant UHF or UHF/VHF ?
I would say same thing as Bradly, remove the amp Rat shack amps are not very good for DTV

I saw it yesterday, wish they did a 75 mile sweep with more detail.
I just went to antenna web and see they still do not list WSAV as a DT station for my address. They only have 11-1 ,23-1 and 44 a PBS station here in Beaufort that is not on air yet.
I did a ch scan and got 6-1 dtv 44 from Wilmington NC

Jim, you are the man. I hate to say this but I've still not replaced my antenna yet. I did put up one for a friend Friday so he could get CBS for the Dawgs, but I cant seem to get motivated to get mine up.

I agree about the radar. WSAV is good because if a storm is in your area, they zoom into the area.

I have never had WSAV in my response to my address. I do, however, have WTGS. :rolleyes:

I sent ant web an email, they said it was not full power, I wonder why they list very low power stations and ones not on yet, but not full power stations.

Removed the amp on the Radio Shack antenna - get absolutely nothing.
I've got an old Terk indoor antenna - put it in the attic and get WSAV at about 70% and WTOC up to 40%, but pretty much un-watchable.

Should I buy a UHF-only outdoor antenna, or what?
Are there pretty good antennas designed for attic use?

Or could trees be the reason the outside antenna isn't working now?

Thanks for any ideas.

I thought I might chime in on the antenna issues.
First, my location is Jesup, Georgia.
Equipment in use: Sharp LC-32D5U HDTV
Channel Master :
CM 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna (CM4228)
CM 7775 Titan2 UHF Preamplifier with Power Supply (CM7775)
RG-6 Cabling, Grounding block, 8 ft. mast mounted to Chimney on 1-Story House

I am able to receive WTOC channels 11-1 thru 11-3 at a solid 74 on meter, no breakups ( except for the audio/switch at commercial breaks ), WSAV 3-1 thru 3-2 at 88 on meter, no breakups. I have seen ABC's signal once or twice with a SDTV look, but not tonight and I see a channel 23 at 30 -35 with no video/audio.
I haven't installed a rotator yet ( for now its Dave the rotator with wife on other end of phone! ) , but I haven't been able to pickup any signals from the south yet.

As far as some of the dropouts some of you have been experiencing, I thought I might offer some of my experiences in Va. Beach, Va. prior to the move here.
I had excellent OTA reception there, with signals in the 90's for the CBS, NBC,ABC,FOX,UPN,PBS, & WB stations, yet there were those occasional dropouts. I was able to narrow them to two distinct sources: Aircraft flying nearby or on an approach between antennas, and Automoble traffic with what I would call "non-supressor type ignition systems". I have been able to document this phenomenom here in Jesup with the local traffic, usually a loud pickup as the problem vehicle!

I am thinking about adding an extension to the mast and retry measurements.

One added note, I did try a Winegard ss-1000 Squareshooter, which I have since installed at my parents in St. Marys where it is working great for the Jacksonville OTA channels, with similar measurements from my distance.

I've had some pretty good response from the WTOC people ( they know my voice from all the "forgot to switch to HD calls" ) and WSAV's manager called me to find out how they might improve their service ( I still cannot record their channels programs due to some HDCP flagging ). My experience with the FOX-ABC affiliates has been that they have a pretty dismal business plan with regard to OTA & HDTV, sad given the wealth of HDTV programming both Broadcasters provide!

More than one day has gone by where the thought of calling WSAV & WTOC and letting them know I was going to picket the ABC-FOX affiliates for their lack of attention to OTA and their insistance of using extensions intended for poor communities to justify their poor business practices!
Pretty much the same with Comcast as they carry Digital w/ HDTV thru Hinnesville to Ludowici but have failed to increase their Head End support here in Jesup, despite a recent price increase for Basic Services.

I'd like to recommend that we might want to consider a meeting in the near future to go over issues as well as systems among all of us early Adopters and invite Station engineers to attend. It did work well up in Norfolk/Va. Beach ( see the Engineering Newsgroup located in the Newsgroup listing )

Dave Gaskins
Cell 912-294-0912

Removed the amp on the Radio Shack antenna - get absolutely nothing.
I've got an old Terk indoor antenna - put it in the attic and get WSAV at about 70% and WTOC up to 40%, but pretty much un-watchable.

Should I buy a UHF-only outdoor antenna, or what?
Are there pretty good antennas designed for attic use?

Or could trees be the reason the outside antenna isn't working now?

Thanks for any ideas.
If you have a preamp, you must remove both amp at ant. and power supply inside.
A R/S 15-2160 UHF ant should work. I would never recomend putting an ant in the attic, it could cut signal by 1/2

WTOC kill the tone on 11-2

Good News Comcast subscribers! WSAV/NBC HD is now available on channel 232. Also the weather radar sub-channel is now available on channel 248.

Also, Comcast will now be providing all of WTOC's newscast ondemand within 2 hours after their original airing. Go to channel 1 then New category and then WTOC News.

Maybe we will have ABC-HD in time for the Superbowl? Will WTGS/WJCL pull off another last minute miracle this year? Last year FOX added HD capacity on the Thursday before the Superbowl.

Cheers,

I found some program on WSAV go for a few min before the voice comes on

Some interesting news from WSAV. This is an approximate quote from a phone call I had with the engineer today, "We are looking to add more subchannels, -1, -2, -3, and -4 but you won't see any degrading of the HD picture quality." He didn't say what would be on them but claimed that since they were using a Harris transmitter the picture would still be good on the HD channel?!? <sighhhhh>

Also, Comcast is sending the "WSAVD" signal down at 25Mbps but there is not a fiber optic link between WSAV and Comcast so the quality will never be better than what is OTA.

Also, Comcast has added WTOC's version of the Tube on channel 243.

Some interesting news from WSAV. This is an approximate quote from a phone call I had with the engineer today, "We are looking to add more subchannels, -1, -2, -3, and -4 but you won't see any degrading of the HD picture quality." He didn't say what would be on them but claimed that since they were using a Harris transmitter the picture would still be good on the HD channel?!? <sighhhhh>

Also, Comcast is sending the "WSAVD" signal down at 25Mbps but there is not a fiber optic link between WSAV and Comcast so the quality will never be better than what is OTA.

Also, Comcast has added WTOC's version of the Tube on channel 243.


When WTOC-DT added their subchannels, they had to eventually drop the audio bitrate on their 1080i feed to 192kbps (from 384kbps) in order to keep enough bandwidth I guess in order to not compromise the data on PID 31 (video). I wonder if WSAV-HD will have to do the same?

And, on a side note, not hearing voice audio on WSAV-HD for the first few minutes (or sometimes 20 minutes!) is due to the audio switch not converting to AC3 5.1. If you notice, its cause their feed is still 2.0 and unfortunately, when the HD feeds comes across in 5.1 sound, you will only get the rear channels. Lately, they have been swtiching to God knows what for 5.1 since the echoing is horrific at best. I don't know what it is with their audio switch, but its definitely not the best.

I have my new CM4228, but out of pure laziness, have yet to put it up. I stuck it in my attic for the time being, and I get 100% 3-1 (as always), 81% 11-1. 53% 22-1, and 40% 28-1 (unwatchable). I might get around to putting it 20-30 feet up outside here soon.

my intent is to point it due south and see if I can get anything from JAX. Good luck to me.

Regarding DigiDish's report on the channels he is receiving, I receive 3-1 and 3-2 at 100% and 11-1,-2 and -3 at 78%. 34-1 (WGSA) appears on my TV but there is no signal. I don't get anything for 22-1 and 28-1. It may have something to do with the setup of the DirectTV HDTV Receiver I am running the antenna input through. It doesn't seem to detect WJCL or WGTS when I run a scan. I assume WJCL and WGTS are transmitting, at low power, from the same location as WSAV and WTOC are but that may be a wrong assumption. I would think I should get some indication that the channel exists even if I didn't get a "watchable" picture. Any suggestions or comments?

Thanks!

I live in Richmond Hill and I get wtoc at about 70 percent and wsav at about 90. I used to get 22.1 with a very low signal but lately have not been able to get it at all. I don't get 28.1 either. I am using a zenith silver sensor indoor antenna

Tom

I locked in WAWS, Jacksonville tonight. I cannot get it to show in my guide though. I show 30.1 as the channel number for this station. That is the same as NBC in Augusta. Could this be the problem? I will try and delete it and see if that helps.

update on reception:
must be something with the troposphere tonight, I'm getting CBS 47-1 & IND 4-1 out of Jacksonville ( approx. 88 miles ), and the 7.1 thru 7.4 PBS station ( ?? ), with good strengths on the WSAV & WTOC . My antenna ( 4228 ) is still firmly directed at Savannah Antenna farm! If only it was this easy at HDTV out of Jacksonville, I'd have no worries or misses with MNF & NFC on Sundays!!!! Thank goodness for the air ~~~~'s .

Dave :)

Bryan the 921 will not let you have more than one of the same ch # , I have same trouble with 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3 is PBS in Charleston. Jax 7-1/2/3/4 so I can only store one or the other.
Same with 4-1 in Charleston and 4-1/4-2 in Jax, 25-1 Jax and Columbia SC, 6-1 in both Wilmington NC and 6-1 from Oralando Fl.
My old Sami will let me store more that one 7-1

Yep, deleted Augusta and had no problem. Now, If I can muster the energy to get the 4228 up, I'll be set. :)

I locked WTGS in last night also. Not that I will get anything, but its there for 2012 when they finally kick up the power. :D

Bryan do you get the EPG for the Jax stations? I get EPG for 4-1 12-1 7-1 and 25-1 That all I have stored now

I thought I'd run this by you guys again. Should I be seeing some indication that WJCL and WGTS are transmitting, even if at low power? I receive WSAV and WTOC fine. How did the WGSA info get populated if I am receiving 0% signal strength? Thanks for your help!

Regarding DigiDish's report on the channels he is receiving, I receive 3-1 and 3-2 at 100% and 11-1,-2 and -3 at 78%. 34-1 (WGSA) appears on my TV but there is no signal. I don't get anything for 22-1 and 28-1. It may have something to do with the setup of the DirectTV HDTV Receiver I am running the antenna input through. It doesn't seem to detect WJCL or WGTS when I run a scan. I assume WJCL and WGTS are transmitting, at low power, from the same location as WSAV and WTOC are but that may be a wrong assumption. I would think I should get some indication that the channel exists even if I didn't get a "watchable" picture. Any suggestions or comments?

Thanks!

I get a signal now and then from 22 & 28 but not all the time. Did you try to add them without doing a scan?

I get them every now and again too. The last time I got WTGS to lock was the night of the Superbowl this year. It was not in HD, though.

As to the guide data; I didnt notice if I did or not, but I dont think I did. The picture was kinda like FOX and ABC in Savannah, I had it for a few minutes, then it pixilated bad and dissapeared.

EDIT: I do have guide data for FOX out of Jacksonville.

I found that the EPG from all the ones I have stored from Jax and Orlando stay in the EPG even if I can not recive them any more. Will look and see but I have 5 or 6 from Jax and 4 from Orlando. only for the -1 nothing for -2/3-or 4

Guys,
How can we get WSAV and WTOC to pay attention to the quality and reliability of their HD signals? Anyone have the e-mail addresses for the station personnel that can help with this? Here are some examples of what I am complaining about.

WSAV - their audio is usually horrible. It's either an echo, or we get just the surround channels, or we get everything from just the left or just the right side. What is so darned hard about passing through what NBC sends them? I have the option for now of getting the networks in HD via DirecTV distant networks, so I get the New York affiliates. When WSAV is having all these sound issues, I can flip over to the New York station on satellite and the audio is perfect.

On the plus side, WSAV's HD image quality is excellent. I will fault them for forgetting to switch to HD mode once in a while.

WTOC - they don't have Dolby Digital. Sure wish they did, though. My biggest gripe with them is this weird zoom thing they do with all 4:3 content on their digital feed. Stuff at the top or bottom gets pushed off the screen. Even phone numbers for their advertisers in commercials are unreadable since they are located almost off the screen at the bottom. Just show us 4:3 content normally. If I want to zoom it, I can zoom it with my equipment. Like WSAV, WTOC sometimes forgets to switch to HD. This seems to happen with them a little more often than with WSAV. At least that's what I noticed since I've starting viewing both channels in digital.

Oljim:

Thanks for the response. I thought I was doing something wrong from the levels quoted in post 438. The only way I know how to update the channels I receive Off-Air is to run a scan. I have a directv H10 receiver. Directv Tecnical Support has been useless in this matter.

Thanks again! No sense looking for something that's not there.

I have no idea about the Direct receiver. With mine, I like the add channel because it allows you to fine tune, for lack of a better word(s).

Oljim:

Thanks for the response. I thought I was doing something wrong from the levels quoted in post 438. The only way I know how to update the channels I receive Off-Air is to run a scan. I have a directv H10 receiver. Directv Tecnical Support has been useless in this matter.

Thanks again! No sense looking for something that's not there.
Look in your book and see if you can add a DTV station manually, On our dish rec. we can ADD a DTV ch buy putting in the DTV ch # (39 for WSAV) then you get a signal bar to fine tune ant position. Then save or store the new ch.

I know this is really irrelevant to the thread, but why isn't Comcast of the Savannah area making an attempt to digital simulcast the analogs. I technically do not fit in this discussion because I don't have an HDTV, however I would like to see an improvement on the channels below 100. After all I'm "supposed" to have "digital" cable. I think Savannah and some othe towns are really behind the other Comcast markets when it comes to digital simulcast. Also I notice Comcast took away The Tube on channel 243 about 45 minutes after they added it.(This happen last week or the week before) :(

Went to help a friend with his ant install yesterday, he had a new R/S VU-190 ant and a R/S 15-2507 pre amp. the ant is up about 40 ft on a 2 story log cabin.
We ran about 65 ft of RG-6 to the 65 in HDTV w build in HD tuner (no signal meter).
We did not pick up any HD stations, lots of pine trees.
I then removed the R/S pre amp and we could get a solid lock on WSAV but no luck with WTOC.
I then hooked up a R/S U 75 (15-2160 $25) had it on a 5 ft pipe in standing on the ground and was able to pick up WSAV,WTOC and WCSC from Charlston 65 miles away (WCSC ) was in and out.
Then put the R/S amp on the U75 and lost all but WSAV.
Looks like the R/S amp has more noise that signal and no good for DTV use.
I took the amp back and was luck to find R/S had an old U 120 UHF ant. got it for $ 10 and will test it next week, it is like the U75 but over 8 ft long
R/S is not going to carry the VU- 75 - 190 ant any more. The R/S web site no longer list any outdoor ant.The only thing is a few JUNK wing things and so called HD JUNK.

Guys,
How can we get WSAV and WTOC to pay attention to the quality and reliability of their HD signals? Anyone have the e-mail addresses for the station personnel that can help with this? Here are some examples of what I am complaining about.

WSAV - their audio is usually horrible. It's either an echo, or we get just the surround channels, or we get everything from just the left or just the right side. What is so darned hard about passing through what NBC sends them?

On the plus side, WSAV's HD image quality is excellent. I will fault them for forgetting to switch to HD mode once in a while.

WTOC - they don't have Dolby Digital. Sure wish they did, though. My biggest gripe with them is this weird zoom thing they do with all 4:3 content on their digital feed. Stuff at the top or bottom gets pushed off the screen. Even phone numbers for their advertisers in commercials are unreadable since they are located almost off the screen at the bottom. Just show us 4:3 content normally. If I want to zoom it, I can zoom it with my equipment. Like WSAV, WTOC sometimes forgets to switch to HD. This seems to happen with them a little more often than with WSAV. At least that's what I noticed since I've starting viewing both channels in digital.

WSAV has a bad audio switch. They're getting the national feed, but their audio switch has to be manually switched over. As for being in "HD Mode" , since its a 1080i signal, its always in "HD Mode" , perhaps you're reffering to Full Screen as opposed to Wide Screen (I'll assume that's what you meant).

WTOC does broadcast in Dolby Digital. All digital stations do. WTOC was at AC3 2.0 384kbps, then swtiched to 192kbps, and last night, I noticed they're back to 384kbps on their bitrates. So, that is a good thing. But, nevertheless, they do broadcast in Dolby Digital (AC3), they always have.

As for the weird aspect ratios, it looks like that might get fixed soon (I hope). The digital station is nothing but a retransmit of their analog feed. Therefore, even though the station broadcasts in 1080i, 1.77 aspect ratio (16:9), their fullscreen shows (not coming off national feed) are actually in a 14:9 aspect ratio. And the reason why they don't switch to WS (or "HD Mode") is because they do not have an auto-switch. Therefore, whoever is working at the station at night, has to be awake and doing his/her job and when local content is done (commercials, etc.) they have to "hit the swtich" to go back to the national feed.

As for the "I hope" in the aspect ratio getting fixed is because I noticed last night for the first time, that they added -DT to the call letters, which means that they're distancing themselves from the analog side of the house (which WSAV has done for quite some time).

As for being in "HD Mode" , since its a 1080i signal, its always in "HD Mode" , perhaps you're reffering to Full Screen as opposed to Wide Screen (I'll assume that's what you meant).

Wrong! Though a station (WSAV for instance) may always broadcast in 1080i, they may be sending the SD feed through. There is a noticible difference in sharpness (and the show will also be in 4:3).

WTOC does broadcast in Dolby Digital. All digital stations do.

Well, not exactly, as all digital stations may broadcast in Dolby Digital, not all stations broadcast in Dolby Digital 5.1 except for FOX. For instance, in my neighboring DMA, Columbus, GA, only the CBS and FOX affiliates broadcast in DD5.1, and the ABC and NBC affiliate broadcast DD 2.0. In my market, the FOX affiliate broadcasts DD5.1, and I believe my NBC does too.

~Alan

Wrong! Though a station (WSAV for instance) may always broadcast in 1080i, they may be sending the SD feed through. There is a noticible difference in sharpness (and the show will also be in 4:3).



Well, not exactly, as all digital stations may broadcast in Dolby Digital, not all stations broadcast in Dolby Digital 5.1 except for FOX. For instance, in my neighboring DMA, Columbus, GA, only the CBS and FOX affiliates broadcast in DD5.1, and the ABC and NBC affiliate broadcast DD 2.0. In my market, the FOX affiliate broadcasts DD5.1, and I believe my NBC does too.

~Alan

Even if the content is Full Screen (1.33/4:3 AR), the native broadcast is still 1.77/16:9 Aspect Ratio. You tv or whatever will auto-crop for you. If you actually look at the transport stream, even FS content is still broadcasted 1920x1080i, there are just black borders. And as for the "noticable difference" in sharpness, that is incorrect too. WSAV, for example, when it broadcasts The Apprentice, its FS picture, and does look like crap. That's cause its a local broadcast. If they were broadcasting that show off national feed, it would look just as clear as the HD content. Like, when WTOC does Survivor off national feed.

And as for stations doing DD audio. Since the transport stream requires a lot of bandwidth, no stations do LPCM audio since the bandwidth requirements are too big. AC3 is already a compressed format, so it saves space on the stream.

Regardless of resolution of the show that is currently on, HD content is sent (whether the show is 'presented' in HD or not) over either 480p, 720p, or 1080i carriers. A digital station that is not HD, but is SD, only broadcasts at 704x480i.

And as for which stations broadcast in 5.1 or 2.0, that is up to the station EXCEPT when it comes to FOX. Nationally, if the FOX local is broadcasting in HD (Fox is 720p), then they HAVE to have AC3 5.1 448kbps audio. If they aren't a 720p station, then they don't fit the FOX standard, and they must broadcast at 480i. FOX may have one station left in the country still doing 480p; not sure.

Even if the content is Full Screen (1.33/4:3 AR), the native broadcast is still 1.77/16:9 Aspect Ratio. You tv or whatever will auto-crop for you. If you actually look at the transport stream, even FS content is still broadcasted 1920x1080i, there are just black borders. And as for the "noticable difference" in sharpness, that is incorrect too. WSAV, for example, when it broadcasts The Apprentice, its FS picture, and does look like crap. That's cause its a local broadcast. If they were broadcasting that show off national feed, it would look just as clear as the HD content. Like, when WTOC does Survivor off national feed.

I don't think you understand. I can't speak for WSAV, since I've only watched it a few times (when I could pick it up)... however, I can speak for the fact that some stations have a bad habit of sending the SD feed over their HD feed because they forgot to switch over. My local NBC affiliate had a bad habit of forgetting to turn on the HD feed until "My Name Is Earl" is halfway over, for three weeks. Back before I got the NY ABC HD feed from DirecTV, I had to try and pick up a low powered ABC HD feed from a neighboring market, and they had a bad habit of airing "Desperate Housewives" in SD on their HD feed for 30 minutes into the show. The stations have a bad habit of doing this when an HD show comes on AFTER an SD show. AVSForum.com is filled with comments on other market's local threads, as well as the HD Programming forum...

Regardless of resolution of the show that is currently on, HD content is sent (whether the show is 'presented' in HD or not) over either 480p, 720p, or 1080i carriers. A digital station that is not HD, but is SD, only broadcasts at 704x480i.

That's exactly what we are discussing. For instance, when WSAV airs the local news, it's filmed in SD, but when it's on their HD channel, it's still broadcasted in HD resolution even though no HD feed is being sent. Some stations have a bad habit of sending the national SD feed through on the local HD signal until they notice. So, while technically the signal is still "HD", the programming (which should be in HD) is not.

And as for stations doing DD audio. Since the transport stream requires a lot of bandwidth, no stations do LPCM audio since the bandwidth requirements are too big. AC3 is already a compressed format, so it saves space on the stream.

And as for which stations broadcast in 5.1 or 2.0, that is up to the station EXCEPT when it comes to FOX. Nationally, if the FOX local is broadcasting in HD (Fox is 720p), then they HAVE to have AC3 5.1 448kbps audio. If they aren't a 720p station, then they don't fit the FOX standard, and they must broadcast at 480i. FOX may have one station left in the country still doing 480p; not sure.

Yes, I'm very pleased with FOX's use of the "splicer" since it allows me to hear FOX's programming when I doubt my local station would have upgraded to DD5.1 unless it was done for them (the same goes for FOX taking the bill for the splicer too!). However, bmeeks8's comments regarding WTOC's lack of "Dolby Digital" was referring to the 5.1 that CBS sends to the individual stations.

~Alan

Alan is spot on with his comments. DigiDish, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, so let me try again.

I realize the digital feed is always sent in 1080i format, but that does not mean the actual source picture content is HD. It may just be upconverted SD. Since you can't get out more than you put in (quality wise), when WSAV or WTOC forget to enable the true HD content feed (wide screen if that is the definition you want), they wind up feeding the upconverted SD signal out. That upconverted feed is nothing like the true HD feed in quality. I have both a 32-inch HDTV and a 50" LCD HD RPTV. On my 32-inch it is a little hard to tell the difference between upconverted SD and true HD, but on the 50" LCD set, it's like night and day.

As for the Dolby audio, perhaps I did not use the correct term. While the audio on an HD station is Dolby Digital, there are two flavors in common use: Dolby II and Dolby Digital 5.1. WTOC uses the Dolby II format. My Denon receiver auto-detects the flavor of the AC3 datastream, and it shows Dolby II for WTOC always. For WSAV, it shows Dolby Digital (5.1 digital) on the handful of shows NBC broadcasts in that format. However, WSAV is still screwing up the audio somehow. There is a world of difference in the audio with a show like Law and Order when I hear it on WSAV versus when I hear it from the New York affiliate on my satellite subscription. WSAV seems to always have no rear surround information on Dolby Digital 5.1 shows.

Well, by all means guys, I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to come across as if I knew something that nobody else did. And if it sounded that way, or whether there were a misunderstanding, I apologize.

I think the true root of all of this is that both WSAV and WTOC are pretty much ghetto. Unfortunately, only 14% of the USA watches TV OTA, and Savannah is like the 86th biggest market, so there is really no "need" for them to improve over what they have since they likely don't see it as a good, fiscal decision.

Of course, a lot of the quality of shows is also based on the cameras that are used in the filming. NCIS sure looks a lot better than How I met your Mother :) .

When WTOC dude at the station hopefully is aware enough to push the simple button to nab the national broadcast stream, the CBS picture is nice. The SD content (4:3) over national feed looks a lot better and in proper aspect ratio then when the guy forgets to push the button and its in 4:2.3 or whatever the hell AR that is lol , and its coming from non-national feed (local ported over crap).

WSAV is the same. When they're getting the feed off national, its nice, but off local its just ugly.

And as far as I know, WSAV only does the national feed for shows that are filmed in HD (16:9). All the SD (4:3) stuff is off locally ported junk (from analog I'm assuming). At least WTOC will broadcast some of the SD stuff from national feed like Survivor and The Amazing Race. That is of course if the guy hits the damn button!

But, its all we have, and I'll take it for the time being.

Good info guys send this to
GCoffman@WSAV.com
npedersen@wtoc.com

No problem DigiDish. After I went back and read it, I realized I was not clear in my original post. In my head I knew what I meant, but somehow my fingers didn't type it all out in the post. :)

I can understand that there is no good business case right now for the Savannah stations to originate local HD content. But since they have the basic stuff in place to send out the network feeds in high quality video and audio, I just want them to do it. All it takes is paying attention to the switcher and maybe troubleshooting the audio side a little bit.

In my youth I worked in radio broadcasting in both the on-air and engineering side. The engineering side of me can't stand distorted audio, unbalanced stereo or multi-channel sound, and heavy compression-- especially when I know the electronics at the stations is capable of better.

Thanks Oljim for the e-mail addresses. I'll send a polite note and see what response I get.

WTOC has fixed their aspect ratio issue for local content. Now if they can just get an auto-switch! Oh what a happy day.

Little bit of an update on the CM-4228. I have yet to install it with the rotor (yeah, I'm lazy), but I have it outside pointing essentially on the antenna farm. I'm not getting anything different for the most part that I didn't get before. Looks like the Thanksgiving weekend, I will have it mounted completely with rotor and all. I'll report what channels I can get with and without preamp and at what azimuths so if people are looking into getting a similiar setup they'll know what to expect.

WTOC has fixed their aspect ratio issue for local content. Now if they can just get an auto-switch! Oh what a happy day.

Got an e-mail response late last week from WTOC's engineer on the 4:3 local content "zoom" thing. He said when they installed the digital equipment they had just chosen 14:9 as the ratio. He said they could look at dialing that back down to 4:3. I have not noticed it yet, but if you saw a change, perhaps they did. Last night, however; I saw some local commercials in 4:3 mode where the text at the bottom (like the merchant's addresss) was zoomed off the screen by the 14:9 aspect ratio.

Got an e-mail response late last week from WTOC's engineer on the 4:3 local content "zoom" thing. He said when they installed the digital equipment they had just chosen 14:9 as the ratio. He said they could look at dialing that back down to 4:3. I have not noticed it yet, but if you saw a change, perhaps they did. Last night, however; I saw some local commercials in 4:3 mode where the text at the bottom (like the merchant's addresss) was zoomed off the screen by the 14:9 aspect ratio.


Yeah, I knew about the 14:9, but I'm watching the football game right now and they're not off national feed (since its SD) ... I guess the guy there running the switch is sleeping. Anyway, the AR is correct. 16:9 broadcast, bordered correctly to 4:3. It does seem to be slighty off, but when I demux the video stream and analyze it, its pretty close (I have an HD computer capture card that I output to HD plasma).

But, I do concur that is still slightly off, but they have certainly made a huge improvement. Now its time to call the station ... again. So, they can hit the switch. I want the game in HD damnit!

Here are some screenshots ...

old.ar.jpg:
File Too Large. Limits are 800 x 640. Your file is 1920 x 1088.

I tried to upload the actual screen shots, but I had to compress the hell out of them to fit the size limitations. Of course the actual boradcast resolution, regardless of viewing AR is always 1920x1080 (16:9).

CBS HD Channel still seem to have major issues with the occasional audio droputs, whether in HD or SD at commercial break. Getting to be a pain in the a#$ as it seems to always happen during a good commentary or needed info.

Dave :(

Just got a HDTV with a built in tuner and I connected my comcast BASIC cable to the tuner and did a channel scan and several digital channels were found. Some are 89.2 is ESPN HD, 82.25 is NBC and 82.1 is FOX but no ABC or CBS that I can find. Any ideas what is going on here and if I can get ABC and CBS? I do not have any STB's from comcast connected anywhere.

Dave I had same thing with Wtoc last night, lost sound when going from station break back to network.
I also noticed no pict on 11-2

Dave I had same thing with Wtoc last night, lost sound when going from station break back to network.
I also noticed no pict on 11-2

Yeah, WTOC has changed something ... again. Their AC3 feed on virtual channel 11-1 is back to 192kbps bitrate. I don't know what they're doing over there, but they can't seem to stick one one way?

Odd

Is there anyone still alive here? :)

J/K

The audio drop from WTOC seems to be fixed, for now. Well, thats about it.

Vagas had no voice for first mim or two and second one was not in HD

Bryan
Do you get EPG on your 921 for all the dtv stations that you have stored, or just ones from Sav.?

I get them for all. I even get the FOX out of Jacksonville.

Good news I think if I get a superdish I can get them to, seems like the local EPG is tied to sat. the locals are on.

I also have another set of locals from somewhere. I see them all the time, but I have never checked to see what they are. It just shows the W---. I guess I could watch the news at 6 and see what city. :o

what are the call letters of the station

I cant remember. Its not like WABC or the like. Hell, it may be Augusta. What are their call letters- WRDW is the only one I can think of...nevermind I would recognize those because I have the digital stored. I'll see and get back with ya.

It is Augusta. They are not in the guide but they are when scrolling the channels. When you get to the channel, it stays tuned to a program for just a second, then a pop up says the smart card is not authorized to view this programming.

now that is strange, never saw anything like that. what is the ch #

Have you tryed to enter the ch # like for 3-1 you enter 00301 or for 11-1 you enter 01101

now that is strange, never saw anything like that. what is the ch #
7701 for CBS and on down the line

Have you tryed to enter the ch # like for 3-1 you enter 00301 or for 11-1 you enter 01101 Just did and it went to WSAV. Should it do something else?

Ch 7701 is WRDW 12-1 from Augusta DTV 31

do you get EPG for 12-1

hello all, i'm new to the area and HDTV in general. so far, i'm having a pretty good experience with it all, have a samsung HLR-5067W with the built in tuner, and just a "rabbit ear" antenna in my apartment. so far, so good (live near I-95 and 204).

any news on when we will get HD ABC in our area (OTA or comcast)? i fired off an email the other night, but no reply as of yet. the superbowl is going to be carried by them this year...it'll be a shame if we dont have it in HD.

thanks for all the great info, glad to see there are HD people in savannah

do you get EPG for 12-1

Yes

hello all, i'm new to the area and HDTV in general. so far, i'm having a pretty good experience with it all, have a samsung HLR-5067W with the built in tuner, and just a "rabbit ear" antenna in my apartment. so far, so good (live near I-95 and 204).

any news on when we will get HD ABC in our area (OTA or comcast)? i fired off an email the other night, but no reply as of yet. the superbowl is going to be carried by them this year...it'll be a shame if we dont have it in HD.

thanks for all the great info, glad to see there are HD people in savannah

Unfortunately, no one has a clue. The emails that some have received back lead us to believe it wont be soon. I started emailing them after WTOC went live many years ago (Yes I said years). They always stated it would be the middle of the next year. Thats been three or four ago. btw Welcome

You're going to be asked what you pick up now; so what do you pick up now? CBS and NBC, I assume.

WJCL is not likely to pull a miracle like WTGS did for Comcast subscribers last year the week before the Superbowl. As has been noted on this forum several times, The FOX Broadcasting Network provides MOST of the HD equipment required to get a HD signal/picture at the station. They won't pay for an HD STL, so no HD OTA but Comcast was willing to pick up the tab and install a fiber optic link to their own headend. ABC doesn't provide any HD equipment and there is significant expense to bring it on air. Plus they don't have an automated switch solution like FOX so the manual switch flipping at WJCL would surely be slack. The only hope is to continue to call and email and remind they you want ABC in HD, especially by Superbowl 40!

Bradley

well, calls and emails i guess it is!

and yes, cbs, nbc OTA. cbs dropped on me quite frequently during today's games, but i attribute that to my $2 antenna...so i cant complain there

week two of no HD-Monday Night Football....unacceptable, although i'm sure that's no consolation to those who have been waiting years for WJCL. email campaign has begun

While we are on the case of the Savannah stations for lackluster HDTV commitments (like WJCL and WTGS), has anyone noticed that WSAV has picked up WTOC's nasty practice of upconverting 4:3 SD to 14:9 and stretching it? I saw it the first time this past weekend.

I'm also still hearing problems from time to time with WSAV's Dolby Digital 5.1 audio feed. They don't always get the channels right. Sounds like they switch in only the rear surround info. During a show one night last weekend I had to give up on them and move to the New York NBC station I get on DirecTV. The Digital 5.1 audio was perfect over there, while on WSAV you could barely hear the actor's dialog. What you could hear clearly were the rear surround sounds, but they were in the front speakers!

bmeeks8 I have emaild WSAV several times about no actors dialog. Some times it takes several mins before it comes in, rear chs are ok

Ok, maybe the pros can help. I recently purchased an HDTV and have tried numerous antennas and still can only get WTOC. Dont get me wrong, WTOC in HD looks pretty good, but how the heck do I get the other channels. I have a terk TV55 which according to antennaweb by the color coding is for my area. If we cant pick those up via any antenna, will they grant a waiver for local stations through Directv for east HDTV stations. Thanks for the help guys.

1 take the TERK back, that over priced thing is no good for UHF.
Get a UHF ant like the Rat shack U75 15-2160 if you can find one or a CM 4228. Both cost less than any TERK junk and they work.
No way will you get a waiver in Hinesville

Can that Rat Shack U75 15-2160 be mounted in the attic or does it have to go exterior?

Never know till you try, but they always work better outside

bmeeks8 I have emaild WSAV several times about no actors dialog. Some times it takes several mins before it comes in, rear chs are ok
Yeah, you wonder what the deal is with their control room folks :confused:

Are they that technically inept? :rolleyes: Why doesn't the Chief Engineer write them a little Job Aid document with pictures and stuff that say put this switch here, and that switch there, etc.?

Can that Rat Shack U75 15-2160 be mounted in the attic or does it have to go exterior?
I have a Channel Master CM-4228 mounted in my attic and I live 64 miles from the tower farm. I get WTOC pretty much all the time and WSAV all the time from about late afternoon to mid-morning. If you are in Hinesville, you should have no trouble with a good antenna. If you have the room, I would suggest the Channel Master CM-4228 over the Radio Shack model. At your distance, and unless you have an exceedingly long cable run (over 100 feet), I would not use a preamp.

The main factor in determining the performance of an attic-mounted antenna is the content of the surrounding house structure. Any metal screening like wire mesh behind stucco exterior walls or the shiny foil backing used on some insulation panels will kill the signal in the attic. My house has OSB sheathing and Hardiplank cement fiber siding on the east side facing Savannah. They don't appear to drastically attenuate the UHF HD signals from WTOC and WSAV. On the other hand, to the west of me is our local low-power UHF station here in Vidalia on channel 46. I'm about 6 miles from their tower. However, that side of my house is clad in man-made stone set in a mortar base with a metal lath underlayment. I get pretty much zero signal from that direction. Even with my 27 dB preamp, I can just barely make out a picture from our channel 46 because of the shielding effect of that metal lath structure.

Yeah, you wonder what the deal is with their control room folks :confused:

Are they that technically inept? :rolleyes: Why doesn't the Chief Engineer write them a little Job Aid document with pictures and stuff that say put this switch here, and that switch there, etc.?


Awesome! Best idea I've seen come yet. It surely would work, especially for the WTOC guys and their manual switch (although, admittedly, they've gotten better lately). Maybe its all the emails all of us send, and the constant phone calls? :)

But, I'm going to concur with the graphical aid. Love the idea. I'll even write one for them if I can get a tour of the facilities and access to the procedures.

Yeah, WSAV ... wth with the AR? They were the saving grace around here.

And guys, I've typed this many times, before but I'm starting to figure out that nobody reads my junk :)

WSAV when one can't hear voices is because its a 5.1 feed (nationally), but the swtich at the station doesn't pick it up and WSAV is still broadcasting in 2.0. problem is, the 2 channels are the rear ones. There has not been a single time to date that when the audio has been jacked that way, WSAV was actually brodcasting in 5.1 audio. Now, getting dialougue, but with crappy sound and echoing ... that's 5.1 and I don't know why it does that on some shows, but not others.

But, I just get the feeling that whatever recevier and/or equipment a lot of people are using actually reflects the true AC3 feed. Once again, I do everything by computer, so don't have to guess, I have all the information.

Also, WTOC's audio is still 192kbps ? Anyone know what gives? They can't make up their mind. Plus, has anyone addressed their AR with them again? They need to take screenshots of a "true" 1.33 AR and theirs, and adjust fire. Albeit better than that 14:9 crap before (like WSAV is doing now), its still not right.

I can't believe the equipment doesn't have "settings" for 1.77-1.81 AR for feed (1920x1080) and the appropriate resize/cropping for SD 1.33 AR content. It just blows my mind. Seems like this is simple.

My old job for 14 years was as a technical training instructor. We created Job Aids for Maintenance folks all the time for various tasks. The idea was to make the task performance fool-proof with diagrams, pictures, and simple one-sentence instruction steps. We would sometimes do a similar thing with quick troubleshooting guides. You know, if you see this, here's the problem, if you hear that, this is problem, etc.

On the audio side:
I have the DirecTV HD DVR receiver with an integral OTA ATSC tuner. I have it connected optically to a Denon 3805 receiver. The Denon is in "auto mode" so it switches modes depending on what it detects in the AC-3 stream. For everything on satellite this works fine. This includes the four network HD feeds I get from the New York stations. For WTOC, it always shows 2.0 Dolby (which is expected since they don't pass the 5.1 audio). For WSAV, it shows both 2.0 and 5.1 Dolby Digital depending on program source. I just know that every time I hear screwed up audio on WSAV in the 5.1 mode, I can switch over to WNBC-DT in New York (on the satellite) and the audio is fine and my receiver shows 5.1 Digital. During commercials it switches to 2.0, then back to 5.1 on the network shows recorded that way.