You paid $9.00 for the filter?!? Are you aware that the filter costs UNDER $1.00?


At the place you got yours at, I had to place a minimum of a 25.00 order.

The AC filters aren't that thick, and they are easy to work with(at least the register filters that I was using).

Most major credit cards will double the manufacturer's warranty coverage up to an additional one year. I have submitted claims in the past to VISA under this program, and the claim submission process has been simple, and the payment was made promptly.

If you're making a major purchase like the DWIN, its definitely worth using a credit card for the extra warranty coverage alone. Just be careful that your credit card policy covers expensive items. Some limit coverage to items under $5000.

Wooohooo! I ordered it!! 1-3 weeks to arrive.
I spoke to a guy at dwin who said that the chip was socketed for upgrade and that it was a mistake to post that info on the site. The new chip wont be available until November. He also said that their engineers got pre-production samples that really ITO was only a 3-5% improvement and when compared side by side they could not see it at all.
FREAK!

Mr. Freak,

Thanks for the HD2+ update. I'll be damn curious to see what the difference will be in November when they start seel the HD2+ units? Since the full benefit comes from the chip itself, a new supporting chipset and most importantly from a new colorwheel I have a feeling the difference might be greater than 3-5%? But as it has been said many times already here the real question is the cost/benefit analysis?

I wonder if the HD2+ will further eliminate rainbows?

He also said that their engineers got pre-production samples that really ITO was only a 3-5% improvement and when compared side by side they could not see it at all.

This is similar to what we were hearing about HD1 vs HD2. If it was stated that HD2 was going to offer improved brightness and a doubling in CR, sales of the then current HD1 projectors would have dried up. I suspect we will find a quite significant improvement with the new chip.

Couldn't agree more Scott. What if Dwin said, "The improvement is dramatic, in the range of 20-25% improvement, you'll be amazed" Do you think Mr.Freak would have thought a while before ordering? Or waited until November? The improvement better be better than 3-5% or TI is wasting their time selling it and don't stand a chance against SXRD and other coming technologies.

My $0.02...

Actually, from what I've read about the HD2+ so far on this forum (and that may or may not be true), but beside some incremental gain on CR and brightness, the main feature of the new chipset was the manufacturing process: it's only one step instead of 4, which greatly reduces the cost of manufacturing, and thus making the chip cheaper.

I'm sure TI and resellers will benefit from this so I don't think it's a waste of time.

Also, if the DWIN's rep isn't lying and the HD2+ has only a slight incremental gain, it could explain why they didn't call it HD3 or HD2.5.

Finally, I also read on another thread that an upgrade to the new chip is possible for current TV3 owners. But obviously, no price tag has been provided. :)

I'm leaning more and more towards doing what Mr Freak did and just order it. :)

-eric

......................and just order it :)

====================================

i can't stress more adamantly: the three months plus of enjoyment you will have by not waiting will more that offset the modest improvement.

i watched Bowling for Columbine last night. PQ on this PJ is just plain stunning. i was amazed at how exacting the presentation was in this film which uses many intertwined formats (not the right word i know) such as old grainy war footage, videotape, outdoor filming....etc. Colors spot-on, blacks deep, outrageous detail....i mean i could clearly make out the fine print on a store door with its hours listed, about three feet behind the actor.

A quick question on lip-sync issues. Watched "Bowling for Clumbine" last night....and needed to set audio delay on my processor to a pretty high 40 ms in order to eliminate the lip-sync.

Bad mastering of this disc...or does the DWIN video processor cause this lag periodically? Only have had it 2 weeks, and this is the first time a lip sync issue.

Rob Tomlin, AC filters are only about a 1/4 inch thick. Just don't use the blue fibered filters. They are thicker, but too open. Pull the cardboard frame and wire off and it should be easy to cut.

Robster, I've never noticed any lip sync issue on my TV3.

Robster:

I, too, watched "Bowling for Columbine" last night - at first using the DVI output from my Samsung HD931 player. As with many (but NOT ALL) DVDs,the sound was about 2 or 3 35mm frames in advance of picture.

(continuing) I had posted this fault on this thread a week or two ago.
There were 3 or 4 reports, but not all identified Bravo or Samsung.

Robster: Which unit did you use last night?

In my case, switching to component or "S" feeds has always been a fix, but with a sacrifice in pix quality, of course.

I haven't noticed a sync problem--although I'm not sure if I'd notice 2-3 frame difference: to state the obvious, that's at the most an 1/8th of a second difference. I'm using DVI output from a HTPC running the NVDVD codec. That's a really odd problem and I'm guessing it must be specific to the DVD.

To answer Rob's question: I don't think Dwin does any processing on the DVI image. Certainly there would be more processing on the component inputs, so it doesn't make sense that the DVI input would exhibit this problem and the component wouldn't.

I'll pay closer attention tonight (haven't picked the movie yet) to see if notice any "lip sync" issues.

Well, it's been 4 months since my TV3 was installed and I just wanted to say how perfect it's been. Every night that I watch a DVD (sadly, HDTV via my HTPC is out of commission right now), I'm reminded of just how excellent this product is.

First of all, I haven't had a single problem with the product--before or after the upgrade). Second, the picture is just stunning on my 92" Firehawk with my HTPC producing an excellent DVI picture.

My only lament is that I don't have better HDTV coverage as Fall looms... but a subscription to Netflix is making me happy in lieu of seeing Alias' Jeniffer Garner at high resolution.

I wanted to throw this in there because it seems that this thread has been dominated by folks who are concocting all sorts of modifications and enclosures to remove what to me doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the image at all. Sure, there's a small amount of light leakage but I can't see it's effects unless I'm looking at the ceiling (I'm not--I'm looking at the screen!). I haven't opened it to check for dust and there have been no dust blobs or any such problems with the picture, but when it comes time to change the bulb, I'll just clean out anything I find.

I don't think I could have picked a better PJ--I don't know if one even exists.

Cheers...
x

Bravo

HDJ....I was using my Proceed PMDT...interlaced, component.

My Bravo arrived...still in the box, as i am awaiting the separately-shipped DVI cable.

-----------------------

XKode : I believe Don has stated several times the purpose of this thread. Like you, I can hardly help from gushing just how lucky we are to have this pj. (i got a 92" firehawk too!).

This PJ is... pick a number...95%., 98%, 92%..., perfect, but this thread exists for the 2% or 5%. Furthermore, I credit this thread for allowing me to get an improved version just versus a few months ago.

Does the crescent spill really bother me? NO. Will I get I get rid of it via the simple solution devised here? you betcha!

xkode, we all love our projectors. We are just making it that tiny bit better.

Today, I made my lens light leak cover. Used the scotch tape cover that Fred found and a little silicone inside to make it's diameter smaller. I let the silicone dry before putting it on the lens. I probably should have sanded down the lens mod before painting it, but it's not that big of a deal. I also cut the filter I bought and put it around the lens and taped another piece on the inside of the intake grill. Then I taped a second filter on the outside. The only opening left is the lens tilt wheel but I doubt I'll do anything there.

Now I just need to find a UPS for the projector.

A comment about the lip sync issue-

There are many places where the audio/video sync will and can become a problem in digital video. I have been fighting this battle ever since my TV shows went on digital cable and even more after many cable companies went to server based head ends vs. tape vcr feeds.
But, as far as we consumers are concerned there is a major place where video processing can add significant delay as related to the sound. That is when we split our audio and video after it leaves a particular device such as a tuner, vcr, dvd player etc. At any point in the process chain that you delay the video there will be a place for it to get out of sync. Time delays are generally in significant for simple video processing such as component decoders and signal splitters. But if you happen to feed your video through any device like a DVD or VCR player it is likely to be seeing a Time base stabilizer circuit. Most modern day vcr's will likely have this circuit built in but these devices are not a problem when the sound is also fed through because they will be engineered to also delay the sound to keep things in order. This delay process that puts video behind audio is only of concern when you do not feed your audio and video together. BTW- These time base stabilizers delay the video by exactly 1 frame or 1/29.97 of a second. It is unlikely that you could detect such a sync issue. Standard encoders and decoding processing will delay the video by as little as 5-9 tenthousand of a second (0.0005 seconds) . Even cumulative time delays of multiple processing would not come close to the delay possible by feeding video separate from audio through various TBC or TBS circuitry. Besides, very few people will ever wire their home theater consoles to daisy chain video through devices. Consequently, I believe that time delays observed are either source based or a mal functioning of the equipment that sources the program.
Say you are having sync issues with your HBO HD- I have here too at times. I always channel surf to check if my receiver is mal functioning. if that corrects it, fine. If not then I assume it is a signal based issue, especially if other channels are fine. With a DVD, I'd suggest you start and stop the playback to see if the problem corrects itself. I have never had a DVD be out of sync but do understand that it is technically possible. If you see everything you watch is out of sync then I suggest you examine your HT console wiring path to be sure your video chain is not daisy chaining through multiple TBC/TBS circuitry.
Finally, I can't say that Dwin is or is not using TBS single frame delay device in their DVI or RGB circuitry but even if it is, most people cannot detect a single frame sync issue. If the problem is intermittent and on random program sources, you will probably be dealing with some mal function of your equipment or the program source but hardly likely the Dwin processor.

thanks Don.

i have noticed it while channel surfing on certain satellite channels. but unless i want to actually watch that channel, it doesn't matter.

i agree that it's generally source material.

for example, on my copy of Moulin Rouge, there is a slight lip sync problem on the DTS feed, but not the DD feed.

all in all, one small feature of the Proceed AVP processor that i love is the audio delay. it can be permanently set at varying amounts (up to 90 ms i think) for each input, or can be adjusted on the fly for what you are watching right then.

my proceed PMDT also has audio delay capabilities.

xkode2002,

I couldn't have said it better myself, I'm in love with my TV3, it simply blows away everyone who steps into my HT.

In fact, as a result of my purchase, I curred myself of my addiction with the AVS Forum:)

I'm in love with my TV3, it simply blows away everyone who steps into my HT.

In fact, as a result of my purchase, I curred myself of my addiction with the AVS Forum :)

I fully expect that this will happen with me as well, once I have my system up and running.

Of course, it's still nice to drop in once in a while and say hi!

But, until I have my entire dedicated HT up and running as perfect as I can get it, I will continue to be "addicted" to AVS.

The tips in this thread are invaluable when it comes to getting everything on the Dwin tweaked to it's capabilities.

Don Landis: I appreciate your attempt to target possible problem errors, but, if I remember your posts correctly, you own no DVD player with DVI output.
If this is so, you can't observe the anomaly which I have reported:

Same DVD - in-sync from component and"S" outputs; out-of-sync from DVI !! (Yes, same audio processor, Citation, in each case; video switched by the DWIN TV3)

To further complicate the issue, some DVDs ("S1m0ne," for example) display no sync problems in any mode.

The delay I note is some 2 or 3 35mm frames - 1/12th or 1/8th of a second. with the sound in advance of pix.

I base my guess on my 45 years of sound fx editing.

HDJ: It would be great if we could isolate this problem. Have you tried any other DVI displays or other DVI content sources (not lots of options here, I know).

Also: when you were listening to s1m0ne are you using the DTS or DD5.1 track? I looked Bowling on IMDB and it didn't specify what kind of audio tracks are available.

My guess is this is a problem with the DVD player or the DVD itself...

xkode2002:
No, I don't have any other DVI displays or content sources beyond DVDs.

My player is a Samsung DVD931, and the product folks there are working with me to identify the reason for my complaint. (CGThanos has reported a sync problem, but it doesn't involve the DWINN TV3.)

"S1m0ne" was heard through DD.5.1. and sync was just fine in DVI as well as component. "Bowling..." was at least 3 frames out of sync in DVI.

What does IMDB stand for?

IMDB = Internet Movie Database.

Here is the link to IMDB (http://www.imdb.com) .

It really is an invaluable resource!

Ah, yes. I know it well, but I misunderstood: You said, "I looked ...", and I assumed for a moment that this was some kind of player.

Brent Huskins came by this morning to upgrade our scaler. Quick and simple. It seems that my old chip was the earliest version he had seen. Mine was .15, others were .25 and the updated chip is .45.

Thansk again Brent.

FYI- Mine was at .35 Everyone should be at .45 after the upgrade. Did you write down the before and after user and factory settings?

Which upgrade is this Don? Is it the software in the scaler?
I should have mine at the end of next week. Unfortunatly, I am heading to NJ for a few days to see my dad and swim in his indoor pool of his new house (and help set up his HT). So I will have to wait a bit.
Drooling with anticipation.....
FREAK!

Originally posted by Don Landis
FYI- Mine was at .35 Everyone should be at .45 after the upgrade. Did you write down the before and after user and factory settings?

I did write down the user settings before. I couldn't ever get the code to work right to see the factory settings. It seems my contrast changed quite a bit. I have to set it to about 99 after going through the THX optimizer twice. My old settings were much lower. I have them written down, but they are not handy ATM.

Freak, you will have the upgrade already. This upgrade is for those who bought the projector before May.

The trick to using the code for factory is you have to press the sequence quickly.

TV3 update:

After a good long burn in on my TV3, Glenned was over this weekend and we re-calibrated both my digital DVD's (i.e. the D1 and 931).

I must say that the picture is sharper than ever. I watched "Lord of the Rings" last night as a warm up and refresher to the sequel we will watch this weekend (can't wait), the PQ was mind boggling, I found myself being distracted from the movie as I scrutinized the image quality.

FYI, I watched several movies on the D1 (been using the 931 exclusively for the past few weeks), including LOTR and no freeze up, good show.

Also, just for grins I modified the lens cap (removed the light spill from the front) and did a comparison of the PQ with it on and off, absolutely no difference in PQ in my HT, Glen agreed. Keep in mind I have a 10 foot ceiling and a proscenium wall that knocks down any light spill to the screen. However, I did notice the room is much darker now, making it more difficult to operate the remote controls and to locate my drink in the cup holder. Man, life is tough ain't it:)

After the upgrade I had been pretty lazy about "recalibrating" my PJ. I'm having some folks over to watch LOTR: Two Towers tonight and I figured I had better dust off those silly THX glasses.

I put recalibrating in quotes because, from what I understand, the "secret settings" for which I have the code only apply to the non-DVI inputs and I exclusively use the DVI input (except for the XBOX, but I don't really need to go to that level to tweak for Halo). So all I'm really doing is setting the video settings (contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness). Also, I'm not using Avia, I have my own half-assed calibration mix.

First I use the THX optimizer (yes, I got the silly $2 blue glasses) and then I tweak using some HD optimization videos that come with XP Media Center Edition 2004 (AKA Harmony) that were developed with CEDIA (or maybe one of the other big tweakers groups), I'm told.

For a 92" Firehawk, ceiling mounted TV3 with DVI running from a GeForce FX5900 Ultra, here are my settings:

Contrast: 86
Brightness: 33
Color: 73
Tint: 56
Sharpness: 4 (although I could easily lower this, I can't really see much diffence in the test pattern with DLP, because it's such a precise display chip).

These mostly match the settings I had before the upgrade, although the color setting is a little lower because the blue fix is in the new chipset.

Now I'm a total hack, so if anybody thinks I'm screwing something up, let me know!

After a good long burn in on my TV3, Glenned was over this weekend and we re-calibrated both my digital DVD's (i.e. the D1 and 931).

Tom-

Although settings will be different for each projector, I would still be interested in knowing what your settings are after calibration, like Xkode provided in the above post.



I must say that the picture is sharper than ever. I watched "Lord of the Rings" last night as a warm up and refresher to the sequel we will watch this weekend (can't wait), the PQ was mind boggling, I found myself being distracted from the movie as I scrutinized the image quality.

That's a good problem to have! :)


I did notice the room is much darker now, making it more difficult to operate the remote controls and to locate my drink in the cup holder. Man, life is tough ain't it

This hobby is full of compromises, isn't it?

;)

Rob,

No problem, as soon as I get a chance I will post the settings.

heheheheh I am giddy with excitement! My dealer let me know that he got my TV3 today. He will drive it over on Thursday morning. Screen shows up Thursday (Vutec Bright white) and mount tomorrow! In time for FOOTBALL!
Go Pats!
FREAK!

LOTR:TT arrived today. (I have to say I'm impressed with my short 3 weeks with Netflix. They sent it out yesterday, a day in advance of it's "availabililty" date so I'd get it as fast as I could have if I had stood in line to purchase it at retail.)

Stunning. I'm really glad I just took the time to recalibrate after the upgrade. The variation in color palates between scenes really helps the mood. The rich green of the grass and the trees during the day and the pale gray of the night battles all looked as good as I remember from the theater.

The interesting thing is that I noticed all DVD's and all HDTV programming that is bright and colorful can look good with a brightness (black level) set for about 20-25 after the DVD-HDCP modification. The brightness before on these programs was OK at 40.
With overall dark programming like LOTR was (I have the HDTV version from DishNetwork PPV HD channel) the brightness setting is between 5 and 10 as OK.

Keep in mind that I have a white matte screen gain 1.0 and those of you with a firehawk will get a black enhancement to your image that I do not get. That may be why you are able to run your brightness control setting higher than me for those dark movies. With bright colorful programs, I believe the iris of the eyes aids in black enhancement and the best test for studying the black level is with video that is overall dark to begin with. In those overall dark scenes the blacks may look gray as your eye's iris opens up. To achieve good black level one must change the setting. With my CRT I never have to change this between bright colorful scenes and dark scenes.

I would love to confirm that those people who have had a field install of the new HDCP mod need or do not need to have field calibration in the D6500 adjustment. So far we have had little information on this by the professional installers. Going back to the early days many of you were doing these ISF tests and supplied information of higher temps for the Dwin. Where does an install put you now? Is anyone doing ISF calibration to a field modified TV3?

I'm about to buy a DWIN TV3 for my friends father-in-law. I think it's the simplest PJ out there to use and get a GREAT picture. I do have a few
questions for you owners though:

1. DWIN recommend Studiotek 130 screen material. I'm inclined to think that's fine. Any comments? Silverstar any better here?

2. I'd imagine that it's best to buy a 16:9 screen. The screen will be fixed and so I think I'm going to recommend vertical masking down to 4:3. My question is when watching 2.35:1 movies or even 1.85:1 movies, does the letterboxing get annoying?

If the projector is displaying 4:3 sourced material, can I make it so the masking deploys automatically? Is there a trigger on the transscanner part?

3. I'm going to mount the PJ on the ceiling. How much space behind the PJ do I need to leave for proper ventilation, is 6" enough? Is there a minimum?

4. How much calibration is needed on this beast? Is it good to go out of the box if I'm using the prescribed screen material?

Raoul-Sam

1. People are using Firehawks and matte white as well as others with good results.

2. The image is 16x9. 2.35 will have bars and that is why I prefer masking.
1.33 frame requires side curtain masks if you want masking. "Annoying" is in the brain of the viewer.

I adjust my masks manually. It is easy and fast. I don't know how one would do the masks based on image automatically. You may be able to set the masks to a default with the input selection through the RS232 ports but I have not even studied those options. I prefer the manual setting.

3. Yes. I wouldn't mount it any closer to the back wall than 6". The exhaust vent exits out the rear.

4. Many will watch out of the box. Each PJ is supposed to be set up and calibrated at the factory. Depending on your programming, the brightness adjustment seems to be the thing I tweak here to achieve best blacks.

For those of you using the Dwin TV3 with a Bravo D1 using a DVI cable, I have two questions:

1. What video setting do you use, when and why? I have been using the 480p setting. I looked at the manual and it has a "DVI Gateway" setting, but mine does not show it.

2. I read on the DVD Hardware section that a firmware upgrade is available, but I could find nothing on their web site. Do TV3 owners need it?

I have the D1 output 720p (the native resolution).

I have not yet flashed my D1. I believe it adds extra timings so it can match native res for other projectors. Therefore I do not think I need it. It has been working well so why fix what's not broken.

The DVI Gateway is the resolution to match their plasma's native res.

-sonny

raoul,

1- Agree with Don, very close call, I've done side by side comparisons and it's to close to call. IMO it will depend on your viewing environment, if you have ambient light to contend with then the Firehawk is the way to go, if not, then beauty is in the eye of the beholder - your call, be sure and view the screens before you make a decision.

2- I chose 16:9, my personal preference. I have no issue with bars, nor does my family (screen is so large and the black levels on the TV3 are excellent so you hardly notice), really comes down to you. Masking is very nice, but can get very expensive if you want it automatic.

3- Good advice from Don.

4- Not much, basic setting from the menu. I calibrated each input device separately, small differences between them. Use AVIA or some other simple tunning disk. It's a piece of cake. Regarding PQ, you'll go mad and bite yourself :)

Dennis,

1- I also use 720p, native to TV3.

2- Not sure

Raoul,

The only thing I can add ...

#4 - My experience and others which I have read about here is that the Avia calibration will yield a "red push" and overly dark picture . Start with getting grayscale right and color adjustments and then contrast/brightness. Watch various source material and do the final manual adjustments. We reduced reds and increased brightness at this point. This was the order the calibrator who worked on my setup did things. We were not able to achieve color balance so we had to do the manual picture tweaking.

Don, Tom, Kraig,

Thanks a lot for the quick responses. Is it trivial to hook the PJ up to an HDTV cable box?

I was planning on using this with a simple DVD player but should I be thinking of an HTPC?

R-S

"I was planning on using this with a simple DVD player but should I be thinking of an HTPC?=R-S"

R-S,

Please don't mind if I respond. I use both HTPC and the Samsung HD931 DVI player.

I like the Samsung. It beats my HTPC (Radeon 9500 card, 8X AGP, AMD Barton, Asus AV8X, M-Audio Revo) in DVD playback. Of course, everyone can use the Samsung DVD player also.

The HTPC does other things other than DVD playback however. I love the Flight Simulator in a 92" screen and I do my HDTV playback through the PC.

If you are only interested in DVD playback, I'd say the Bravo D1 or the Samsung HD931 would be the way to go.

And if you are planning to do a HDTV, maybe it would be an option for you to look at the Direct TV boxes (and soon to be released Dish Net HDTV receivers ). You get those with DVI outputs and it's a glorious picture.

That shouldn't be too difficult Raoul. What box is it? If it is the Motorola 5100 I haven't heard of the DVI port being enabled yet. Even if the DVI port is enabled the corresponding audio ports are analog. The output of the box is set by the user to 480, 720p or 1080i. No source detection. Can you tell how much I think of the Motorola 5100? If your budget allows consider Directv. You'll get a lot more hd experience for your $$.

kraig,

direct tv huh? could do that. is it really that much better for HDTV programming?

r-s

If I were to choose a new HDTV provider, it would be DirecTV. They are the leader when it comes to HD content at this time (although you can't get your local HD channels through them).

When I set my Bravo D1 to 720p from 480p, the TV3 video setting changes to HD, which I believe is the native resolution. Unfortunately, with both 1.85 and 2.35 dvd's the heigth of the picture gets squeezed substantially, e.g. a 2.35 dvd's picture height is reduced from about 37" to 27" on my 100" 16x9 screen. The width does not change (picture is distorted) and there are no sidebars. When the D1 is set to 480p and the TV3 is set to Letterbox, the picture has the correct heigth for the dvd, i.e. 1.85 or 2.35. After changing the settings, I have turned both off and back on with no change in results.

Is there a setting on either the TV3 or D1 I am not setting correctly?

There has to be an aspect ratio or screen shape setting on the D1 somewhere. DVDs won't always work on the letterboxed setting for the TV3 in 480p, either. Anamorphic DVDs (there are lots of them) don't display properly.

That said, I'm not sure there is any benefit to setting the D1 to 720p. The scaler in the Dwin is almost definitely better and since you have a digital path directly to the TV3, you're not losing anything by letting the Dwin scale the picture. At the end of the day, DVDs are recorded in 480p anyway.

Here is the link to the first publication of the Dwin TV3 FAQ.

http://www.scubatech.com/TV3/FAQ4TV3.doc


This is a word doc saved from office 2000.


I may work up a pdf file format later but I need to play with the text wrap first as it won't convert automatically with my adobe software.


If any of you feel I left something very important out of the first cut on this let me know. I intentionally did not put in menu defaults since none of you all had sent me any confirmations except that it appears there are no defaults. Also, I don't want to duplicate what Dwin has already posted as we have the links to that information in the documant.

Anamorphic DVDs (there are lots of them) don't display properly.

What are you saying? They don't display properly on the Dwin "Letterbox" mode, or what?

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
What are you saying? They don't display properly on the Dwin "Letterbox" mode, or what?

Before I switched to my HTPC, when I had an anamorphic disc and I had my Dwin set to letterbox, I got a vertically smushed image. Setting the Dwin to anamorphic rectified that problem.

With my HTPC generating 720p exactly, the DVD codec determines if the disc is letterboxed or anamorphic and 'does the right thing'.

Don,

If you want I can help you convert your non-pdf FAQ docs to pdf. Here's a pdf version of Don's TV3 FAQ.

http://www.twelly.com/tv3/FAQ4TV3.pdf

Nice FAQ btw.

-twelly

when I had an anamorphic disc and I had my Dwin set to letterbox, I got a vertically smushed image. Setting the Dwin to anamorphic rectified that problem.

Got ya.

Sounds to me like the Dwin was doing exactly what it was suppose to do.

right... i think any player that scales up to 720p (which is ONLY specified as the resolution of 1280X720) should always be able to scale the picture correctly (be it anamorphic, letterboxed, or "fullscreen" 4:3) since no display should take a 720p signal and let you mess with the aspect ratio!

This is a limitation of the D1 (or the person who posted hasn't found the correct setting).

It's different for a standard DVD player because it only sends 480i or 480p, and the TV that gets it could be either 16:9 or 4:3.

Don,

Thanks for putting on this FAQ. I think I speak for everybody saying that it will be very helpful, especially the newbies (like me) :)!!

-eric

Thanks twelly-

Did you have to reformat it in Acrobat? When I did the conversion the page layout was all messed up. I don't have full acrobat, just Page Maker and that didn't import the word doc very well. Page Maker can output pdf files but it wasn't as easy as it sounded. :(

Great Job Don!

Don,

I have the full acrobat so the conversion was easy.

-twelly

twelly-

Then stick around and when updates are needed I'll send you the file for a quick conversion. :) I think more people use acrobat for internet documents than MSword because of the free reader. I need to get the links in my signature for AVS.
I'll move the pdf over to my site, twelly, so you don't have to maintain it if you don't want.

Don,

I'll be more than happy to convert them for you. Just PM or email the links to your documents. My email addr is twelly@ieee.org

-twelly

I saw the acrobat file was much smaller too. Some day I may have to get that package but I so rarely do "printed stuff" that I haven't found the need to get it. I thought Page Maker was adequate but I can see there are some issues that make it poor for importing formatted doc files. Too many conversions. Anyway, now that the base FAQ is done, I hope others will be inspired to find something missing that can be added. I have the link in my sig now and hope that there is a way to get the link posted to the thread headder some how. I'll ask David what he suggests.

Don; thanks for all the work compiling the FAQ's. This is a very important document for all of us living and breathing (no filter jokes intended) the Dwin TV3.

All the best
Norm

Norm P,

I'm in Gurnee, IL. Maybe we can get together and compare notes. I sent you a PM.

I will add my thanks for the FAQ Don.

I'm finally getting closer to getting my room complete, and getting my Dwin up and running.

It's taken longer than anticipated, but I'm sure the wait will be worth it!

Raoul - sorry for the delay, been out of town. Yes I would choose Directv over Comcast any day. You get what you pay for and the Motorola 5100 is nothing special. Rob Tomlin said Directv doesn't provide local channels in HDTV which is true, but what is true is if you have local HD programming and can get it via an antenna, a Directv receiver also tunes OTA signals and adds them to the on screen menus. The Motorola does not tune OTA signals.

Is anyone seeing any color oddities in dark scenes? During dark scenes I'm noticing a very strange purple blooming, particularly in skin tones.

One example where it's easy to see is in the portrait scene in Titanic. I get this blooming that kind of looks like a purple sepia effect. I've seen this in a handfull of movies during similar scenes.

I'm using a D1 with DVI.

anyone?

Has anyone noticed a significant difference in picture brightness between DVI input and component? My picture through component is very dim - so much so that bright daylight scenes actually look they are overcast as opposed to bright and sunny, like they should look.
Really don't want to whine and be the dissenting voice in a sea of thrilled TV3 owners, but the picture is via component leaves alot to be desired with regard to brightness. (And I am using a Firehawk, so I get extra gain)

"the picture is via component leaves alot to be desired with regard to brightness----schlitzie"

schlitzie,

Each input has to be calibrated differently. In my case, I have different brightness, contrast, etc.. between my DVI, RGB and Component inputs.

Another question, did the component source you have do well in other displays? The problem could be the source.

I have D-VHS and a Dish Net Model 6000 as my component sources and they both look very good! I use a Stewart Studiotek 130 screen.

Thanks for your suggestions, Anthony -- problem is, they ARE calibrated independently - and still looks lousy. The settings between component and DVI are quite different as I recall.

And yes, the component sources (Sony 9000ES, Motoroal DCT 5100) are fine, having previously worked well with both an Infocus projector and a Sony projector.

I'm just not having good luck with my DWIN experience so far - DWIN fixed the focus problems I was having, but have not been able to cure the dimness. It's frustrating knowing that folks on this board are loving theirs and mine isn't up to snuff.

Schlitzie,

Although I prefer the DVI picture over the picture from a component dvd player, my component dvd picture is really, really good. I have noticed absolutely no brightness issues. Sounds like you got a dud. Any chance they'll swap it out.

Chad

Don't know. Roger at Dwin told me that it is as good as it is going to get --But I believe he was referring to the focus problem I had, and am not too confident that they even looked at the dimness issues. (I had returned it for optical alignment, lightspill problems, and dim picture - got it back nicely focused, a bit better on the lightspill, but still pretty dim). Now he did tell me that if I am not happy they will refund my money, but that is really not an action I want to take because of A) Everyone else is raving about theirs and I don't think I am pickier about PQ than everybody else and B) Changing brands is not a small deal once you add up cost of new mounts and cables and shipping and insurance and the hassle of reprogramming the damn AMX control system again.
At this point it makes sense to sit tight for a few days and see if there are any earth-shattering announcements at CEDIA that I can throw into the equation.

If they are willing to refund the purchase, then shouldn't they be willing to swap it out for a replacemant?

yeah, I imagine so -- however I am a little annoyed with them having just gotten it back after they had it in for warranty work. It's a total PITA to pull this one down again given my installation. I wish there was a local place that I could visit to see another one in action for comparison purposes before I go through that process again to make sure the effort is worth it.

Just an FYI-
I sent a copy of the FAQ to Dwin for comments and possible additions. They said they would reply after CEDIA. I specifically asked if it would be OK to publish they service access code. Just so you all understand, I will do what ever their wishes are regarding this issue. The fact that most trained technicians have access to the service code is good enough I think. We'll see what their wish is.

schlitzie- Can't you compare your picture with another PJ in the area to see if it is you who have greater expectations than what the TV3 will do or if yours is actually not working right? Seems this should be your next step before returning it to Dwin. How's your dealer working with you on this issue? You are correct about most of us here think the TV3 is just what we wanted in quality for the buck! Technically, I do adjust my brightness and contrast for each source; and, in addition, I often make adjustments from movie to movie, especially on HDNet Movies as some have really washed out black level while others are fine. I'm often tweaking the brightness between 25 high and 5 low on that movie channel.

Just looked at the FAQ Don. Very nice document.

Don Landis says:

"How's your dealer working with you on this issue? "

Exactly what I have been asking the members of this forum. They seem to be doing all the work, contacting Dwin, shipping to Dwin, etc.,etc...

When I had my problems, my dealer came to my house and said; " Yup, there a problem, we'll get the new one from our truck, we'll put it in, and PROBLEM SOLVED! And yes, they drove for two hours each way.

Demand that kind of service from your dealer!

You dealers should be the one bearing the problem- not you guys. Heck, you paid them enough, right?

I totally agree Anthony!

I've found that on certain occasions I have to go to bat for my customers - not just for DWIN but for any manufacturer. The manufacturer usually takes the dealer's word for it and gets the unit swapped out.

schlitzie - unless you owe your dealer money or something :) , put the pressure on them - and not mainly DWIN - you should get better results. The dealer will not want to give you your money back.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Hi guys - of course you are right, and I agree 100% -- but I am being easy with this as my dealer (you all know them, btw) are a good group that I trust... I am sure if I ask they will be there for me - I just want to exhaust the possibilities first before I go create a ruckus... Besides, if I end up with a different manufacturers unit, my DWIN dealer will almost certainly be the same place I get that one from. And at this point I hope I don't owe them any more money!
As I mentioned, I will hang tight for another week or so and see what transpires at CEDIA - though I am intrigued with the rumor of the possibility of an upgradeable TV3 (if I get it to work right) to the HD2+.

Schlitzie says :

"my dealer (you all know them, btw) are a good group that I trust... I am sure if I ask they will be there for me"

Then it is more reason why they should be involved. You say they have a reputation. I bet you it is a reputation that they will uphold.

I'm so happy today after receiving a voicemail & email from my dealer that my tv3 and firehawk screen will be arriving this Friday. Yipee! I'll soon be joining you guys.

I hope that the unit they shipped doesn't have the light spill since this came from the latest batch. ::crossing my fingers::

-twelly

twelly-

If your TV3 has no light spill, then I would say you got the first one that was modified from Dwin to be free from it! So far no-one has reported all light spillage gone.

"Hi guys - of course you are right, and I agree 100% -- but I am being easy with this as my dealer..."

I feel that decision should be a joint decision between you and your dealer at each juncture. If you have a problem, your first line of contact should be your dealer, not Dwin. This is just normal business practice and ethics. The only time I would contact the manufacturer directly is after the dealer had suggested I do that. eg. unresolved issue I once had with a brand name product bought at Best Buy. The first thing their CSR said was "call the manufacturer." They don't always say this but this time they did. schlitzie, If you feel a need to "go easy on your dealer" then I am curious as to why you feel this way. Seems there may be something missing from the picture here that we don't know about and it probably is none of our business but in a normal procedure- you need to have the dealer involved at every contact until they say to call direct! Just an FYI- Once I placed my order, I had no contact with Dwin until recently when I asked about the FAQ question. Didn't feel that was a dealer issue as the dealer wasn't involved with me writing.
I hope you get your disappointment resolved. I hope you get an opportunity to see a properly set up TV3 so you KNOW if yours is broke or the TV3 is just not up to YOUR expectations.

I made a discovery last night. A couple of posts back, I had asked about a strange color tinting I was getting with skin tones in dark scenes. In the service menu, there's a setting for "Index Delay". Mine was initially set for 208. Making moderate changes (+/- 20) to this setting yielded variances in the effect I was seeing.

My best guess is that this is a timing adjustment for the color wheel to compensate for minute differences in color wheel RPM due to manufacturing imperfections or application voltages.

A setting of 200 eliminated the problem and the overall picture was startlingly improved -- I thought is was excellent before!

Has anyone else made adjustments to this setting? It might yield a much
improved picture. Just be careful to note the initial setting in case you need to go back.

Schlitzie,

I'm also using the Sony DVP9000ES with a Firehawk, and I have the Bravo D1 and Samsung 931 as you may already know.

All three units throw a knock out picture, very close in overall PQ. The digital units are just a bit cleaner and crisper in PQ.

As Don indicated above, like him, each of my DVD's, and other devices, have unique settings, and it made a difference in PQ.

Have you checked the Sony to see if it's faulty, or perhaps connected another analog DVD for a comparison?

Also, are you satisfied with your digital DVD PQ (i.e. DVI input devices)?

If so, in my book you either have bogus component ports on the TV3 (I assume you tested both ports), or your DVD is having a problem. I assume your cables are ok (i.e. good quality and within acceptable length and installation guidelines).

Hang in there, you should be getting excellent PQ from both the Component and DVI feeds. I'm sure either your dealer or Dwin will make good, you just may need to motivate them a little :)

Anyone else order the Digital Video Essentials disc yet? Brent Huskins mentioned it was coming out last time he came by and I decided to preorder it. It's released on 9/9.

"Produced in the 1080 line progressive, 24-frame high definition format"

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=40160407&loc=322&sp=1
Price: $18.73

(Slightly OT...)

Toxarch,

Are you sure this DVE has the WM9 HD files on it? After a little research, it looks like this is a 480p down-converted version of the D-Theater version. You might have to buy another version soon...

-eric

Damn! Go away for a week, come back and the FAQ is live! Nice job Don!
Looks awesome. One thing it does very well is show how few problems there really are with the TV3. Incidental, I got mine right before I left town. What a tease! I could not set it up before I left.
I have a couple suggestions:
How about some links to the fixes?
How about along with screen recommendations, UPS and DVI cable recs. I remember some discussions about these.
The pics are great and really shed some 'light' on the issues.
Fantastic!
FREAK!

FREAK-

"How about along with screen recommendations, UPS and DVI cable recs. I remember some discussions about these."

I believe all but the DVI cable diameter was indeed listed in the FAQ. I think I was the only one who ever requested information on the DVI cable round connector and cable diameters but I did forget to put them in the FAQ. It is on my list now to add in the next update to the FAQ. So far, that is the only item on the list.

FYI- I wanted to avoid brand and specific recommendations but keep it as general as possible. Read that I discussed the gray and specifically the Firehawk™ screen but only that some had favored this. There is no way to list all name brands of UPS supplies, only that many had installed them and that both the PJ head and the scaler needs to be UPS'd if you are going to do that.
Links to fixes could be done, like the suggestions on the Scotch tape box in this thread. How about you doing the research on this and give me the link and the post #'s with what it refers to and I'll check it out and add it to the FAQ. The trick now is you have to be thorough! That is what takes the time. :)

Another suggestion for additional FAQ info could be the part numbers and links to various ceiling mount kits that work specifically for the TV3. I can do the Peerless one as I have the pictures and pros and cons (my opinion)of that system. These would be the ones besides the one supplied by Dwin. I can photograph the factory one from Dwin so people could see what it looks like. Mine is still new in the plastic wrapper!

Glad you liked it and thanks to all for your support on this. I put it together a few minutes here and there between work projects. That is why it took nearly 3 weeks to get the first one done.

Just installed my tv3, bravo d1, & firehawk screen this weekend. First movie we watched was AOTC. All we can say was "WOW". It's HD like.

There is still some light spill coming out from the projector. Another issue I found is I saw 3 bright pixels. But I only see these at certain viewing angle. Are these dead pixels or bright pixels as described in the warranty? According to the warranty only 4 dead pixels are acceptable and there shouldn't be any bright pixels.

The fan is a bit loud during quiet scene. Do you think a hushbox will minimize the fan noise?

Need your opinion.

-twelly

Don,
I am sifting through the pages to link some good posts to add to the FAQ.
FREAK

There should be zero bright pixels, according to the warranty. If you are sure that's what they are -- call your dealer right away for a replacement.

If they are indeed, bright pixels, they will appear in the same place and number with all inputs, software, and scenes. If it's only one input or one DVD, then it's more likely to be a cable / hardware / software issue, depending on what you are seeing.

Dwin showed nothing new in front projectors at Cedia. Many manufacturers demoed their new HD2 plus chip machines with the new 7 segment color wheel. The plus chip reduces the effects of the famous dimples. It doesn't eliminate the problem entirely but it reduces it to make it insignificant. So the comtrast ratio doubles from the hd2 machines to the hd2 plus machines and brightness improves too, The extra segment (a dark green) supposedly improves color accuracy in dark scenes. The HD2 plus machines are a significant improvement and I can't wait for Dwin to offer retrofits. Some manufacturers are shipping HD2 plus now, other will take until mid 4th quarter or early 1st quarter. I wonder how long Dwin will take and what the upgrade cost will be. Machines will have to be shipped back to Dwin for the upgrade. I suspect it will April or later.

Some manufacturers have switched to a DC bulb instead of the AC ones most use to substantially eliminate flicker. Some have plug in color sensors (you plug the sensor into the front of the machine, put the sensor on the lens, and press a button). Instant ISF calibration for free.

Mark,

Dwin's TV3 at the show included the HD2+ chip. It was not the HD2 chip. I saw this myself as did others that were at the show. Also the 7 segment color wheel has nothing to do with the HD2+ chip. They can be used exclusively separate. DWIN will be shipping HD2+ in 30 to 60 days and the retro will be about $1,000 - Did you get a chance to talk to them at the show? DWIN also still had the best demo in the $10,000 to $15,000 category. I didn't see anything other than $20,000 and up that looked better. Yes Sony SXRD at approximately $25K DID look quite better. BTW - the Infocus 7205 looked terrible in my opinion.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Twelly,

I'm a big fan of the hushbox, especially for the Dwin. You can follow my link below and see dozens of pictures I took of my hushbox setup. The TV3 isn't quiet and the first movie I watched with my wife was Unfaithful which was a fairly quiet movie. My previous projector (Yamaha LPX-500) was very quiet and I knew I had to reduce the sound of the TV3 or be bothered by it always. I checked out the hushboxes from Whisperflow and while they are nice I thought they were expensive and lacking proper ventilation.

My first stab at doing the hushbox was not too good. The box itself was fine I just did a lousy job of ventilation. The temperatures in the box were dangerous, fire hazard high. Fortunately my brother in law contractor/construction guru recommended the Nutone LS-50 bathroom fan. It works like mad and can't be heard.

My final box design yielded less than 1db of noise, you have to strain to hear the projector or fan. The fan keeps the projector at an even operating temperature of 85-87 degrees and since it is a sealed box air can only come in through my filters on top. The hot air is pumped out the side of my house just like a clothes dryer so the hot air doesn't warm the room. And the light spill is contained as well.

I'm not a great woodworker as you can see by my pictures. I did a texture on the box's exterior to hide my joints, screws, etc. I painted it with some silver paint that works in my scheme. It releases from the celing frame of 1x1 polar with four pins and is very heavy. Almost everything came from Home Depot. The fan came from a local Nutone supplier. The window on front is optical port glass that won't filter light. Working in my drop celing is very easy...

Go to it.

Brent,

Not sure if you know.. the $1000 upgrade to HD2+, will it include the 7 segment colorwheel? What else will it include? Will we have to send the projectors in or will it be upgradeable by us end users?

I know you may not know the answers to these questions but your more likely to get answers to them from Dwin than I am.

Thanks,

As far as I know they are not planning on changing the color wheel as of now. The 7 segment color wheel is not required by TI's chipset. The upgrade is a chip replacement that includes a complete chip set. Apparently the HD2+ chip and a few other required TI chips all have to be swapped out. They all reside on one board. This will have to be done at the factory and should be available to all TV3 owners after they start shipping the new units. I asked specifically about the 7 segment wheel and felt that we won't see a color wheel change for a while. In my opinion the 7 segment wheel demos I saw didn't yield better results - and for Infocus it was not an improvement. The idea that 7 is better than 6 is just marketing from what I saw.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

According to some other posts, Dwin themselves were saying that there was very little difference between the HD2 and HD2+ chips.

Brent- could you notice much difference?

I saw an improvement to the dimple in up close viewing - but at that same up close viewing you can see the screen door much more than any dimple. If TI wants to fix something then they need to get rid of the screen door. Walk up to your image and look for the dimple on any HD2 machine and then compare that to the screen door that you see.

Needless to say it was a very minor change for every manufacturer. DWIN noted a 3% improvement in brightness and that is probably accurate. No one else at the show had a significantly brighter or higher contrast demo with an HD2+ chip.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Brent-

I must admit that I am actually glad to hear you say that! I certainly didn't want to be tempted with upgrading to the HD2+ chip when I haven't even mounted my Dwin yet! I don't need to spend another $1000 right now!

Room should (finally) be ready in less than three weeks. Target date for first movie is the weekend of September 28. It's been a long, tedious process, but there is finally light at the end of the tunnel.

I am with you Rob. I have it sitting in its box waiting for my Mits to be picked up by its new owner. I am also re-doing my thater room. We finally have some doe to do what we want. We ordered a new custom leather sectional, new blackout shades, Boltz DVD shelves, new rug, TV3, D1, 103" screen and newly built flexi rack.
I have been a bit bothered by my choice to not wait for the HD2+ but after reading several posts including Brents I am very releaved and satisfied. I will be enjoying my TV3 for the next 30-60 days and beyond.
A proud new member of the TV3 owners club.
Now I have to get it up before sundays Pats/Eagles HD game.
FREAK!

I have a question regarding powering off your tv3. When I hit the dwin power on/off button either from the remote or the processor box to turn off the power, the projector does shutoff its lamp and I see a blinking green LED at the processor box. According to the manual when the green LED is blinking it means the tv3 system is in standby.

Is it OK to put the tv3 in standby or do you guys normally shut off the power source on both processor and tv3 as well?

thanks,
twelly

One more question, do you know if there is a focus adjustment in tv3? I somehow noticed the picture projected from my tv3 is slightly out of focus. It's hard to tell when the movie is playing. Is there a way to test whether the picture projected has the right focus? Maybe some sort of test a pattern or something?

thanks,
twelly

Twelly, mine always has the flashing light on the scaler box when the projector is off. I think there is also a small faint flashing red light at the projector's IR sensor. Is there another way to turn it off?

On the projector's lens, there is a zoom dial and a focus dial. I pull up the projector's menu and then focus the projector. That way I know the projector is focused right because the menus are focused perfectly.

Actually Brent I spent a good 1/2 hour with Edward and Diane of Dwin. We discussed many many things including you!

Edward did not indicate to me that their demo incorporated the HD2 plus chip. I will speak with him tomorrow to verify the demo usage of the HD2 plus. Neither costing nor timing of the upgrade were discussed.

Guess what I was told campers. Machines sold by a dealer to customers outside that dealer's territory, and thus in violation of the Dwin dealer agreement, will not be upgraded by Dwin. No flame wars please. Call Dwin and ask them. I am only reporting what I was told. Maybe they were telling me something other than what they will actually do.

We spent considerable time discussing the new wheel and whether the addition of the forest green band truly made the wheel 7 segment versus 6. I did not see the Dwin demo because he indicated the machine was unchanged from the one Dwin has been shipping for the last several months (the new input board and the new programming chip). Perhaps I misunderstood him.

Well I hope you had good things to say Mark :)

Boy that would be pretty bad if they were telling everybody in the demo that they were looking at the HD2+ chip when in fact they weren't. No wonder I didn't see much difference. :)

The upgrade cost I was told about was an off the cuff answer in the demo room. Please Mark let me know what you find out from Edward. FYI I finally got my Canon 10D!

I know that all of my install customers will be happy they went with me. That's good that DWIN is trying to protect the dealers.

Mark, what is your opinion about the 7 vs 6 segment demos you saw? I was not impressed with the Infocus at all.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Thanks for the info toxarch.

-twelly

Please, Dealers- Take your warnings and complaints about dealers, who conduct their marketing methods in a manner you don't like to PM or privately up with Dwin. If you have something official, like a direct quote of policy from the Dwin management then fine, but, what I am hearing is the kind of stuff that does not generate a positive image for you or Dwin, even in a wink and rib jabbing sort of way.

I do not feel this thread or this forum should be the platform where dealers can complain about each other's marketing methods unless you plan to announce some formal proceedings of legal violations or action that should be of news worthy interest to all.


The above is just my feelings on this and you are free to slam each other all you want. Only the moderators and admins have official say. I just don't think it presents a positive image and looks bad as I stated.



Thanks for your understanding.

I wasn't digging at anyone. Brent ask me what I saw. I didn't see Brent but I have spoken with him over the phone socially several times. I asked Diane if she had seen Brent. She said she hadn't seen him (obviously as of that time). My post certainly was relevent to the topic and I am an owner of a TV3. I do not read Brent's post as a dig at me.

Personally I think the HD2 plus chip and new color wheel are a significant improvement. Remember Dwin said the HD2 was not that significant an improvement over the HD1. When you walk from say an HD1 room to an HD2 room you may see not that much improvement. But put the two side by side . . . . At the show at least one manufacture showed an HD2 machine versus an HD2 plus. The demo was not side by side, but was sequential. To me the difference was significant. Black level and black detail, more vibrant colors, and an increase in brightness. I do not know how someone else would value the improvement, but say for a $10K machine I would certainly pay $1.5K for the chip and wheel installed. A no brainer if I could afford it. Hell one of the reasons for choosing a Dwin is that it could be upgraded with a new chip.

Don. I would appreciate you removing your post. I read your post as referring to me. It is out of line and not warranted. I would not change a word of my post and would post it again.

Twelly -

Standby is probably what everyone does when turning off the Dwin. Because of of my hushbox and ventilation setup I have the AC that feeds the projector and fan triggered by my amp. The end result is I can't turn on the projector unless the fan is on as well. This keeps me from starting a fire in the hushbox.... The controller/scaler is always powered though.

Twelly asks:

"Is there a way to test whether the picture projected has the right focus? Maybe some sort of test a pattern or something?"

Twelly,

I go to the service menu (get the service code from your dealer) and use DWIN's test pattern. I use the chess board and the cross hatch pattern.

Don, I agree with Mark. It was not directed in the way you said.

Of course it is relevant to talk about the enhancement to the TV3 and for the DIY'ers that bought a unit not so traditionally it's important for them to know that they will likely have to go back through their dealer before an upgrade will be performed by DWIN.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

kraig,
Thanks for confirming the standby mode of tv3.

anthony,
Thanks for the info regarding the test pattern.

-twelly

Folks,

I need your collective assistance with this one. It's driving me crazy. I'll try and keep it as short as possible.

A while back, I asked if any of you were noticing any ghosting on your TV3s. Particularly with bright, white text on a black background. I believe Don responded that he didn't see anything like that.

I assumed that it must just be my unit, since no one else here seem to be complaining of such a thing. I figure, if anyone is going to notice it, it's going to be this group. So I called my dealer, After he spoke with Dwin, they suggested swapping out the scaler.

He sent me home with his demo scaler -- I tested it -- same problem. I bring the box back to my dealer today and we surmise that it must be either the cable or the projector head. For kicks, we reconnect the scaler to his Projector and guess what? Same problem. They had never noticed it before, but now that I was pointing it out, it was quite obvious.

Now, I suppose that its possible that my dealer and I both wound up with the only two units exhibiting the same faulty behavior, but isn't it more likely that many, if not all, have this characteristic? So why aren't you guys seeing it?

Please fellas, take another look. White text, black background shows it best. It's a (not too faint) ghost above the lettering. It's most predominant towards the bottom of the screen in my case, but my dealer's box showed it more uniformilly across the image, top to bottom. Maybe it's the kind of thing that your mind might dismiss unless you're looking for it.

Please, let me know and I'll keep you posted. My dealer's going to speak with Dwin again today.

Also, if any of you are masking your lens for light spill, let me know if the problem shows up without the masking cap on.

Thanks for any help you can offer towards sorting this mystery out.

I have had my pj for about 6 weeks and just recently started noticing this problem. It is VERY faint but, also, VERY present. I also notice it when a person is standing against a bright background. It is probably something I could ignore, but now that I know its there, I can't help looking for it once in a while.

MVideo, I didn't remember your post about this but I was just about to raise this issue myself. I've even thought of trying to capture it on a digital photo.

I am masking my lens with a modified lens cap and I'll try removing it. Also, for grins, we should compare setups. My pj is mounted about 8 inches above the top of the screen and approximately 14 feet from the screen. My screen is a 110" Stewart Studiotek 130.

I'm going to guess that if people look more closely, they may notice this problem. However, if you haven't already noticed it, maybe its better if you don't look for it because you may never notice it!

At least you know you're not alone!

Chad

Could you guys describe this in a little more detail.

Frankly, it sounds a bit like edge enhancement. Are you sure it isn't the source?

Mvideo,
You have PM
AGN

Chad - My projector is 12.5 from the screen, and the mount is approx 24" above the top of the screen. 120" Stewart StudioTek 1.3

Rob - It's definetly not the source. It was observed at my house with two dvd players, various software, and DSS, and also at the dealer with a dvd I do not own.

Not sure if we are talking the same thing, but my TV3 was exhibiting a 2-3 pixel halo effect that resulted in a slightly out of focus image. I sent it back for the once over and it came back much improved, but I also have to report that text still appears fuzzy. Most noticeable on the FB warning/legalese BS at the beginning of DVD's. Now it's not like I read that stuff or pay attention to it, but it certainly tells me that this unit has some optical aberration.
I am projecting onto a 110" Firehawk from about 16 feet, with a lens mask

I talked with Rodger today and he stated that the machine at Cedia had the HD2 plus chip. They simply plugged the sample chip they received from TI in. They would be switching to the new chip when it is available in quantity from TI. He said he and Edward were telling dealers that Dwin was showing nothing new in its demo room because in their opinion the HD2 plus chip made no real improvement in the image produced by its HD2 machine.

This is very contrary to what the other manufacturers were saying and to what I saw when HD2 and HD2 plus machines were displayed sequentially in other booths. I can't comment on whether the chip makes a difference in the Dwin cause I didn't see it

Roger said their color wheel does not come from TI and that several vendors are available with different wheels. They had not seen the new wheel the others plan to use.

Rob - It's definetly not the source. It was observed at my house with two dvd players, various software, and DSS, and also at the dealer with a dvd I do not own.

Well, many DVD's do have edge enhancement! DSS is going to give a very poor picture anyway, unless its HD.

Do you get the same effect when watching in High Definition??

Rob,

I spent about 30-45 minutes watching HD programming and was unable to detect any of the outline. I also looked at three different DVD players (I haven't settled on one yet). The outline is most pronounced on my HD 931 using DVI out at 720p. It is also present occassionally on the D-1 using the DVI output at 720p. I was unable to notice it using the Sony 999ES - 480p. To be honest, I don't fully understand what "edge enhancement" is correctly defined to be, but I have heard it is more pronounced on the 931. If it is EE, then it would make sense it was more visible on the 931. Again, except in uncommon circumstances, I really have to look for it so it isn't a major concern or distraction.

Chad

I spent about 30-45 minutes watching HD programming and was unable to detect any of the outline.

In that case, I would be willing to bet money that what you are seeing is, in fact, edge enhancement.

If there was a problem with the Dwin doing what you described, I would be almost sure that it would do it on HD material as well.

To those who didn't get it, I will explain it to you in PM. It is more of a matter of ethics or philosophy on how to conduct business (IMpersonal O) than anything else and I hope you will get it when I explain how what specific statement appeared a "dig" Then you can take it for what it's worth. I will be quite specific in the PM.

Don - PM sent

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
In that case, I would be willing to bet money that what you are seeing is, in fact, edge enhancement.

If there was a problem with the Dwin doing what you described, I would be almost sure that it would do it on HD material as well.

Rob -- I've seen edge enhancement -- this isn't it. This is a halo, or ghost, double image, what have you, of bright objects. Edge enhancement can be observed as a band of light around dark objects. Not the same at all.

The ghosting is visible on the TV3 menu itself when I display it on any input with a dark background, so it can't be software induced.

MVideo-

What you describe seems to me to be an effect in video that has several names but generates the same look when improperly adjusted. Also, you need to understand that this can occur anywhere in the video chain of events, including the camera shooting the original image but manifests itself in the projector's ability to cope with the degree of these adjustments. I have seen this under at least 3 names I can recall... Edge enhancement, Detail enhancement, sharpness enhancement. Basically they all have an effect of adding a dark edge to hard lines in the image when properly adjusted. Overdone the edges exhibit a white glow. Unfortunately, you may see this on some programs and not others as upstream this enhancement may have been improperly adjusted but hardly noticeable, then, downstream you have a preset adjustment that adds to this and it becomes very noticeable. This is unfortunate because you would have a difficult time if not impossible to remove it if it is now part of your program.



In ref to this- "The ghosting is visible on the TV3 menu itself when I display it on any input with a dark background, so it can't be software induced."


mvideo: in your case you have done this elimination and now need, I think, to tackle the illusionary portion assuming your "sharpness" adjustment is off "0" in the Dwin settings.

There is also an optical illusion created by the lens, room and screen design itself that can cause a glow surrounding white text on a black background in the most demanding image design. The more glass you view the image through the more critical the optics are to prevent this illusion. The larger the screen the more you are amplifying that illusion. Similarly, when we shoot video through a lens glass that is very large in diameter vs. a consumer lens that may be 5% of that diameter to the same tape format the defects in the image are amplified in that consumer lens. Even if you wear glasses to view your screen it may cause this illusion to grow. In this area I think all you can do since dealing with many of the items in the chain that are fixed, like the dwin lens and your screen, is to tweak other easier things. One I did was to put a black 9x6 carpet in front of my screen stage to stop back reflections from a rather light colored teal carpet in addition to adding surrounding masks and dark draperies. Grayhawk screen would be even better but that is a more involved tweak.

In summary- I'd analyze the problem and determine if it is on every program source or not. If you have detail, sharpness adjustments in your end of the chain, shut them down or calibrate them, all of them, with AVIA test chart. I know the last one is in the dwin TV3. You may have others upstream like in a DVD player. Also, don't rule out inviting another person who you know is good at analyzing screen images, like an ISF calibrator or someone like me who is used to picking apart a video problem and figuring out ways to fix a problem.

Don - Thanks for the tips. I appreciate it. I've been involved in home theater video equipment for 10 years as a hobbyist, so I'm no pro, but I've been knocking around with this stuff long enough to recognize edge enhancement and artifacts resulting from poorly calibrated equipment.

This problem is inherent in the hardware of the Projector - optical or electrical.

I've tried every trick in the book. Sharpness is off, I checked for room reflections using heavy card stock held around the artifact (My room is also painted very dark) -- I've verified that it's coming from the lens. It's present in every source and like I said, it's present in the menu, so it's not software.

I'm going to try and take a digital picture of it so you can see what I'm talking about. The entire shape of each letter is recreated above and lighter than the original. It's not like any edge enhancement I've ever seen.

It's present through the full range of brightness and contrast and changing the color wheel timing has no effect either. My dealer, like you, seems to believe it's a setup issue. His PJ has the same exact problem - which is another nail in the coffin of room reflections, and external equipment initiated issues.

I really believe that I've ruled out calibration, software, and external equipment. My dealer is going to try and "go to school" on his in order to fix mine. I don't believe he'll be able to accomplish anything with setup, but who knows. I'll keep you posted, but my money's on a defect in some of these projectors.

I promise, if you saw this in your setup, you would not be happy.

I too have a TV3, but mine has a white line on the bottom of the screen. It covers about 2-4" on the bottom edge. Is this the same thing you are talking about. I can't seem to adjust it out of the picture.

What is the fix for this problem?

MVideo,

Your's sounds much worse than mine. Definitely try to post a pic. I'll try to do the same next time I see the condition in a very obvious way.

Chad

What are your dealers doing about these problems?

I haven't reported mine to my dealer yet because I just began noticing it and am not convinced it has anything to do with the projector. The more MVideo describes his problem, I'm not sure he and I are talking about the same thing. I plan on examining mine a little more closely before I go to my dealer.

Chad

Well - my dealer just called. He wasn't able to tune it out of the picture.

He added that he was at a customer's house last night who has the Marantz HD2 DLP and apparently, it does the same thing. So I'd be ready to beleive at this point that it's inherent to DLP technology, or the HD2, and just live with it. The only problem I have with that is that you guys dont see it, and I cant imagine you missing something like this, so...I dunno.

The dealer says Dwin's willing to have me send it in and give it a look, but they dont think there's much that they can do and they're 90% sure the replacement is going to do the same thing; so I'm not sure what to do at this point.

MVideo-
Please try to post a picture of the defect. Maybe you can shoot it up close to enlarge the defect area in the photo. I recall one TV3 owner had a problem we all just couldn't understand and then after he posted a picture of it, called Dwin, discovered it was optical path alignment problems and guided him through the fix. I believe a couple of others had the same problem AND this line on the edge of the image also was fixed with some optical path adjustment.

Just because you and your dealer see this doesn't mean it's on every projector but it is curious he saw it on the Marantz as well. I'm real curious to see this photo of the problem so I can look for it here. If I put white text on a black background the edges of the text is very sharp and the black is clean up to the white edge of the text. Up close there is a bit of blur that looks like anti aliasing of the video character generator but this is indigenous to most character generators used in production. I don't believe this is whet you are seeing. It can be as thick here as 3 pixels but it is aiding the soft blending of the curves in the key. Without it text would all look chunky.

I'll try tonight to post a picture. I'm not real satisfied with my dealer's answer, especially considering you and others are not experiencing it.

I guess there's the possibility that he's blowing smoke, re the Marantz, but he's given me no reason to distrust him in the past.

Don - maybe you could try and take a picture of white text on black and we can do an a/b. Maybe that would give me confirmation that I'm dealing with a defect.

MVideo,

I've sent you a PM.

Chad

One other thing - my dealer ordered a 50' cable for the projector. I only needed 25'. I'd be interested to know what cable lengths you guys are using.

During troubleshooting, I've noticed white specs flashing on the dark backgrounds when the picture is paused, but I figured that was DVD player related.

Mine is the short one, 25 ft. I recall. The specs may be the long cable. I recall others getting sparkles onlong cables in use with other projectors.

BTW I don't have any DVI sources yet.

Rob -- I've seen edge enhancement -- this isn't it.

Perhaps what you are seeing and describing isn't edge enhancement. My specific comments were directed at Chad. He hasn't said anything yet to pursuade me that what he was seeing isn't EE.

It sounds like your problem is more serious.

So I'd be ready to beleive at this point that it's inherent to DLP technology, or the HD2, and just live with it.

What you have described certainly does NOT sound like anything that is inherent with DLP technology!

Does anyone have a pronto ccf for the TV3 they can email me?
ajcevans@mindspring.com
thanks
FREAK!

I have a .ccf for the TV3 that I created. It is for the Pronto Pro and its pretty basic but it does have discretes for on/off, displays and inputs. If Freak or anyone else wants it, email me at chadgauntt@hotmail.com. I'll just e-mail my entire system .ccf which includes:

Krell Home Theather Standard 7.1
Samsung HD-931
Sony 999ES
Sony Laserdisc
Motorola HD cable box
Bravo D1 (which, for some reason, I can't get to work well)
Dwin TV3
Lutron Spacer lights

I'd be happy to send this to anyone who needs/wants it.

Chad

In light of the below link/thread regarding the HD2+ and the 7 segment colorwheel I think we might all appreciate hearing something official from DWIN? Anyone know Edward?

It sounds as though TV3 is going to fall behind the pack of other HD2+ projectors and frankly it doesn't seem like it has to be that way. Without too much r&d I DWIN could incorporate the new chip AND colorwheel and be as good or better than competitors.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301058

Dwin told me that they will be upgrading to the HD2+. The color wheel is still being researched.

Ghosting update. I tried, unsuccessfully, to capture this artifact on my digital camera, but it wouldn't expose. Here's my best attempt at a rendering that simulates the problem.

I spoke with my dealer today and informed him that although his has the problem too, I'm not ready to accept that all of these projectors have the same issue (based on the fact that no one else here seems to be experiencing this particular problem). He's agreed to exchange the projector for me and another one is on it's way from Dwin.

TO: MVideo,
If this is a close simulation then I would say there is something definitely wrong. My TV3 looks nothing like this.

MVideo-

Thanks for posting that. I was trying to figure out what it was you are seeing but your photo certainly explains it. Now, I can assure you I don't have anything like that on my screen! It's almost like you have something reflecting the intense whites back onto the screen.
Now that you have demonstrated what it is you have, I suppose I could display an image like that on the screen and just shoot my screen for you to see. I'll try it this evening. I'll need to find some DVD with the white on black credits and just pause it while I photo it for you.

What screen do you use? What color are your walls, ceiling, and floor?

Are you using the lens cap light spill fix and if so do you have it painted black to prevent back reflections?

Just thinking out loud here.

Here is a real quickie. It is from the credits on Fifth Element as I recall it had white on black credits. I shot this from a distance of 12 inches from the screen and didn't take too much time to focus it but if there were any ghosts above that text line, I'd think you would see it. It is pitch black.


Is there anything else you would like me to set up and shoot? I recall you said you have it on the Dwin menus too. Which one?

Nice shot of the screendoor there Don!

;)

Mvideo..

For what its worth..I see nothing nor have I ever seen anything like what you posted on my Marantz S2

Thanks for posting that Don. You're image has really convinced me that I was right to insist on an exchange. I also have a slight blue convergence error that your projector is not exibiting. You can see it in this picture - what you cannot see is the ghost, but it's there. I guess I'd really have to over-expose to capture it.

Anyone else have this blue edge

Another nice screen door example! :)

If I was betting, I would say the 2 problems are related. I've seen on another brand of projector a slight "convergence" problem cause a similar type of ghosting. We fixed the convergence and the ghost was gone. Was the convergence issue addressed with DWIN? I would hate to think that you were told that another unit wouldn't be any better when you have the convergence issue and the ghosts.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

I've heard of the convergence issue before - so I figured none were perfect, until I saw Don's picture. Now that I know that's a problem, I bet you're right, they're probably related. I should mention the convergence issue to Roger and see what he says - or maybe I should just wait for the replacement.

Just heard from my dealer. He's got another projector for me. He told me I could pick it up today and bring the old one back to him tomorrow.

Pretty good service if you ask me. Can I give him a plug, or is that against the rules?

That blue fringing is horrible.

When we are talking about "convergence" issues on a DLP, what exactly is it that's out of convergence?

I dont know! Weird isn't it? Shouldn't happen. Notice the yellow tint on the bottom of the letters, indicating that the blue is indeed, shifted upwards.

How can that happen? The mirror reflecting the light for the pixels are fixed on the panel. Could the mirrors be tilting closed as the blue filter passes - thereby reflecting the light slightly upwards? Is this a timing issue?

My guess is refraction from optics mis-alignment.

Is this the ghosting pixels you are talking about? I boosted the brightness in photoshop to hunt down other than black pixels in your snapshot.

Looks like the right spot, but in person, it's really apparent. It can easily be seen from normal viewing distance (11-12 ft)

For all interested, Here is how I mounted my TV3. I used a 24x24x3/4 plywood board that I screwed into the studs infront and behind my mounting location w/ 5 #10x21/2 screws. I then attached the mount to the board with #14x11/2 screws. This is not the standard dwin mount but one my dealer got me. Works well for angled ceilings.
FREAK!

Another shot

Freak,

I don't know how everyone else would look at $25.00 but for that price you can have a Peerless Industries part number CMJ-470.

http://www.peerlessindustries.com/jumbotv_ceilingplate_standard.htm.

Saves you time and looks neat.

It has the same thread system as the Chief RPA-018 you have.

Anthony,
The mount didn't cost me anything really. It was part of a package price with the TV3, screen, and 25ft cable that was very, very good. When I mentioned to my dealer that I had a slanted ceiling, he threw the chief in. My mounting troubles were mainly that I am, first and for most, handy-incapable. I had trouble finding the studs. Once I found them and got lots of great info from people here and a couple other forums, it was up in 3 hours (in between my baby daughters cries).
FREAK!

"didn't cost me anything really"

Everything has a cost, really.

True, whatever it was, it was part of the package deal that had a price I was very happy with and, quite frankly, didn't think it would get as low as it did.
FREAK!

If you want to paint that drop pole, it is possible. Clean it with ammonia or rubbing alcohol and then paint it black. I would also sand down that plywood to hide the wood grain and then paint it white.

Or, spend 25 bucks. It will definitely look better!

Anthony,
I appreciate the comment. This is not the completed look to it. I intend to add some molding to the edges and paint the board/molding white. I just wanted to show how the mounting went because I, being completely un-handy, wa having some difficulty. I am pretty impressed (as well as my wife) as to how it came out so far. Please do not read any hostility in this response. Again, I do appreciate your input as well as everyone else.
FREAK!

Freak,

It is always good to take pride of your work!

All I want to share is another option for those you would not trust with a hammer, or worse a saw!

And when it comes to costs and prices, we all realize that the price we pay is more than what the price tag says. The price includes what else did we give up to get that price?

For example shopping at Sam's Club is cheap but what did we give up to get that cheap? Have you ever asked for help inside a Sam's Club?

We buy used stuff for cheap but that comes with the loss of guarantee and a certain measure of peace of mind.

You building that mounting bracket and saving $25 comes with the cost of more 3 man-hours. How many more man-hours are you putting into it? And how much is the monetary value of that?

Unless you really enjoy craftmanship-then you can not put price into that!

True, I did enjoy doing it especially once it was mounted and my wife came home and was very impressed.
FREAK!

Boy, I wish my wife was as easily impressed! :D :D :D :D :D

Brent Huskins
Media Design

She is impressed because she knows what (or how little) I am capable of.
FREAK!

I guess that's what you get when you're a Pats fan...How 'bout them Cowboys!!!

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Brent says:

"Boy, I wish my wife was as easily impressed!"

Me too!

Originally posted by bhuskins
...How 'bout them Cowboys!!!

Brent Huskins
Media Design


Sweet game!

We Cowboys fans have to celebrate whenever we get the chance, since we may not get too many chances this year!

In order to keep this post somewhat on topic, it looks like I missed getting my Dwin hooked up about a week too late to see the 'Boys in High Def!

Regarding using the Dwin with a DVI player:
I was reading the reviews by Greg Rogers on the Samsung HD931 and the Bravo D1 in the last 2 issues of WSR. It states that the pj must differentiate between pc-dvi settings for IRE and video dvi settings. The Yamaha pj he used in the review has a setting in its menu where you can toggle between the two. From what I understand, the D1 outputs video DVI and I think it passes below black on PLUGE via DVI; the Samsung uses pc DVI and does not pass below black on PLUGE. Can the Dwin accept both types of dvi signals? And for all of you who use the Samsung, how do you set up the black level when using AVIA or VE?

Thanks in advance,

AGN

last football comment- Catch the Philly game? More crushing to come.

"From what I understand, the D1 outputs video DVI and I think it passes below black on PLUGE via DVI; the Samsung uses pc DVI and does not pass below black on PLUGE."

If you are going to use these terms, you need to use them correctly-

First what is "Black on Pluge"?
Pluge is a standard for calibration of a monitor's black level (brightness adjustment). The standard test contains 3 levels of black- 5IRE, 7.5IRE and 10IRE. When the monitor is adjusted to display both the 7.5 and 10 but the 7.5 and 5 run together the adjustment is correct!

In analog video the true black is standardized at 7.5 IRE and this pluge adjustment is correct. With digital video the calibration is opened up and allowed to see a difference between the 5IRE and the 7.5IRE as well as the 0 IRE black in the SMPTE test chart.

Blacks or overall brightness will always look darker with digital video calibrated for analog PLUGE adjustment but this is not correct. In the race to prove to one's self that his projector has "better blacks" he will often mis-calibrate his black levels to analog PLUGE for a digital PLUGE calibrated video.

So what to do? The truth is that until each video we watch, each movie, each Program, is preceeded with a standard SMPTE bar chart with PLUGE we have NO IDEA what that video was calibrated for. All we can do is pick a setting and operate our projectors at that setting and allow the miriad of programs using both standards at random to play as they may and if it looks too bad, adjust your brightness setting as it looks best!

The whole thought of calibrating your projector for one setting with all the differences in programming is ludicrous. Heck, I work in broadcasting and I can tell you that even with bars at the head of every broadcast master that comes in here from different producers, there is little control over what the bars say and what the program is. This was indeed worse back in the NTSC days but even with Digital video today, many programs are done at the older analog PLUGE calibrations. Even the professionals are not consistent with this so how the heck do you expect to be able to say what's right and what's wrong with your PJ calibrations unless all you ever watch is your AVIA DVD! :D
You should be able to tell when the blacks all look washed out and adjust your brightness setting accordingly for a better picture. That is why those controls are there. Likewise when you see a movie where much detail is all lost in the black shadows, push the brightness up a bit until you can see the details. Just because you calibrated your PJ with PLUGE on the calibration DVD does not mean that the film transfer was following the same black level you set your projector for.
Don't be afraid to adjust your black levels for the best picture viewing for each program because I can assure you the world is not doing it all the same.

Back to ghosting and blue tints. I took the replacement projector home last night. I just received the projector itself, not the scaler.

First problem was that the lens shift wheel seemed like cr*p on this unit. When moving the image upward, the wheel seem to load up, and then it would release and the image jumped up 6-7".

Secondly, the ghost was still visible, although improved, and the blue tinting at the top of bright images was still there. To confirm, you guys are not seeing any blue outline on white images at all? I've seen it on three of these projectors, and none of you have it? Is a black (blue) cloud following me?

I also saw a general graininess in the image on this projector that wasn't there with the last one, and there was color tearing on the left and right sides.

So I'm returning the replacement because overall, the ghost was still there, although better, the blue tinting still visible, plus it had these tearing problems and a shoddy lens shift mechanism.

Maybe I should try the cable next. This is frustrating.

MVideo-

What are your video settings on the menu? Color, Tint, Brightness and contrast?

Don -

Going from memory

DVI Input

Contrast - 65
Brightness - 30
Color - 56
Tint -58
Sharpness - 0

Calibrated using Video Essentials.

I don't see any indication of chroma crawl due to excess gain. I thought you may discover a color setting at 100. Kills that idea!

The blue fringe was noted by a number of people (including me) earlier in this thread. It was most obvious on the diagonal line pattern in the advanced menu. I also see some very out of focus ghosting above white letters on a black background- it looks like internal lens reflections.

One thing I don't grasp, is why your dealer didn't open up and check the new PJ before he gave it to you.

Well,
I finally got my screen up and image aligned. I just hooked up my bravo D1 just so I could see what DVD at 720p and 103" looks like.
F*CKING AWESOME!
Can't wait to hook up HD tomorrow!
FREAK!
oh, terrible light spill. Crescent on the ceiling and in the rear vents. I will probably do the lens cap tweak.
FREAK!

Mvideo-

Try a lower setting on your Brightness setting. Try "10"

Let us know if your ghost disappears with this setting.

Again, what screen do you use?

FYI- Since my HDCP upgrade, I have been using Brightness of 10-20 on most DVD's and 25 on HDNet and DiscoveryHD channels for best blacks details. 30 looks too washed out especially on the HDNMovies channel and HBO HD etc.
Also- I use a Dalite gain matte white 1.0 screen.

Originally posted by scottsol
One thing I don't grasp, is why your dealer didn't open up and check the new PJ before he gave it to you.

Because he knows that I like to see it factory sealed - we have history. ;)

Don - I'll try the lower setting. Just for the record, you aren't seeing any blue at all!? I've seen that on three projectors now, the two I've had at home, and my dealers demo setup. Scott makes four that I know about.

I'm using a Stewart Studiotek 1.3 120"

On both the internally generated test pattern and off of an AVIA disc, my TV3 shows black boxes separated by white lines. These black boxes have two sides (top/left) with a fine blue fuzzy line, and the other two sides (bottom/right) with fine red fuzzy line.
Working with the dealer on this now.

Mvideo-

I do see the blue edge, best demonstrated by a pure menu display rather than the white on black (fuzzy resolution) lettering in my previous quest for the mysterious ghost. I believe I mentioned this color edge earlier in my TV3 ownership. BUT, the edge is only one pixel thick and very defined. The Ghost quest shot was just too fuzzy in resolution to see that 1 pixel edge. In a normal program the resolution definition is nowhere nearly defined as we have in the menus that are locally generated eliminating most of the transmission artifacts. I will try to get a picture of a closeup of the menu later today if I have time. I will need to study the camera's Macro methods first.
I'm still wondering if those of you using these gain screens, ie other than 1.0 matte white are discovering the luminance generated artifacting. Besides, your picture not only showed the blue but also some red alignment on the opposite side of the white area as I recall. Could this also be caused by the color wheel resolution/speed and how it interacts with a screen that has gain that may be causing a prism effect? Lots of questions but the bottom line is not how this looks from 6 inches viewing distance but how the image from a program looks from your seating distance. For example- If I spend a nickel if is going to buy me a nickel's worth whether it has scratches or is clean and fresh from the mint. (baring coin collectors value) If I watch the TV3 image on a gain screen from my viewing distance will it's image look better with or without that one pixel issue I have; will it look better with or without the 3-4 pixel refractive colors on the edges of a 15 pixel high image in the screen of 53" high? My guess is these microscopic examinations will amount to the same difference as the nickel expenditure example. Nothing!

PS- This discussion is indeed amazing. Here we are talking about an artifact of a fine 1 pixel line that is about 1/16" on my 92" wide screen. If I approached a dealer with a complaint about a convergence issue of this dimension on a $25K CRT he would think I was nuts!

I have a couple of questions regarding my new TV3.

1. Does anyone else have a problem with the offset? Since my ceiling is only 7', I have my screen as close as possible to the ceiling. The DWIN manual says 6" is the minimum, so I have my screen a little over 7" from the ceiling. Unfortunately, once I got everything up, I couldn't adjust the image high enough without a lot of wrangling. Beware. The DWIN manual may say 6", but on my unit it's more like 7".

2. I've been watching a lot of DVD and WS HD content -- stunning pq. However, on 4x3 HD and standard content, I can't seem to get the image size and position right. For example, on a lot of standard content, the image seems to be too tall, and I can't adjust it down enough. On some 4x3 HD content, I have image noise at the top or bottom. If I play with the TV3 image size and position adjustments, I can make them go away, but not for all stations (go away on one, show up elsewhere). Is there some magic with the image size and position adjustments that anyone can share?

Have Bravo D1 DVD with DVI and Comcast cable in the Boston area.

The "noise" you see is generally on lines 22 and 24 or 21 and 23. It can contain a number of signals depending on what the station decides to transmit. Normally these signals are outside the scan area that is masked in most TV's. With Front projection you can set your image display for no masking or overscan. Some systems call this vertical blanking. When viewing Broadcast TV you will need to adjust the image to mask these data lines in the "vertical interval" that is normally hidden from view.

In calibration of the screen size you need to adjust the image based on a good HDTV source. I would recommend HDNet or Discovery HD. Both of these have consistent HDTV image sizes. Showtime and HBO have had some variations in screen image sizes so I would not recommend them for an HDTV source for setting up your screen.
Once you have your screen and projector properly mated in size and geometry as well as a good 16x9 ratio in inches, now keep that screen size and setting constant as you switch to DVD input and adjust your input memory for a 16x9 DVD image size. for anamorphic and for letterbox depending on which DVD you are displaying. You will need to adjust that setting as there is no standard with DVD's. some are anamorphic and others are letterboxed. 4X3 content on NTSC in to the PJ should also be adjusted so that it has the same screen height and is centered in the 16x9 screen but is width calibrated in the dwin so that dimensions do have the 4:3 ratio in inches.
If you follow a logical setup procedure you can get each of the Dwin inputs to have it's default memory so that the images are the same from source to source except for the upconverts. Upconverts are complketely non-standard image size. IMHO, it is not worth attempting to size the image memory for upconverted programs as each will be different. What I do here is maintain the 16x9 size and then adjust my screen curtains and masks for resizing the screen to properly frame an upconvert. There are technical reasons beyond the scope of this discussion why all upconverts will be different image size.

The problem with sizing for input is that you cannot size or blank DVI input, which I have on both my DVD and HDTV.

Don - I agree with you regarding PQ at normal seating distance. It's all about enjoying a presentation, not perfecting the image as seen from 6". I was just curious because I wasn't sure weather the blue line I was seeing at 6" is in any way connected to the ghosting I can see at normal viewing distance. Your theory regarding the screen is interesting, as it is the one constant in all my trials of scalers and projectors and locations -- my dealer has a 1.3 Studiotec as well.

Scott - what gain screen are you using?

I have a 92" 16:9 Studiotech130 as well and I don't see any of these things you are talking about.

-sonny

Mvideo-

Yes, It's just a theory about the refraction. I also don't think the ghosting is related. I'm at a loss to guess anymore about that.

What broadcast source are you doing with HDTV? I have yet to see HDTV Broadcast available with a DVI source tuner but I'm sure that wuill come up in the future. Not sure how we will deal with it then as I'm sure stations will have vertical interval data even on HDTV. Eventhough I'm a licensed BE, I don't work for TV stations or network so I'm really not sure how the boys in the business will be answering that. Seems to me PJ mfg's, Dwin and others will need to address it when that comes up by adding the vertical blanking adjustment whatever they will call it. I don't think TV monitors are supposed to be viewing in the overscan.

Don - Im using the Sony SAT-200 for HD-DirectTV.

My dealer called, he's got a third TV3 for me to look at. Whatever happens, at least I'll know I had my pick of three of them! After this, I'll try changing the cable (because I am getting some sparkles on black backgrounds if I look close), and then start enjoying the thing, one way or another.

godavego,

If your screen is 7" from the ceiling and your TV3 is ceiling mounted you can't have a 6" offset. The Dwin itself with mount is more than 6" so your lens is probably at the top of the screen and not offset at all.

It's specified as the difference between the mounting surface and the top of the screen, not the lens.

vegashomes:
Yes, the doc specifies the offset from the ceiling if you are using the DWIN mount. My screen is 7" below the ceiling.

Don:
I adjusted my screen size using the PBS demo channel and by going into the TV3 mount location menu. The mount location menu projects an all white area, making it easy to see the edges. This makes all my 16x9 HD content look great. It's the 4x3 that is messed up (either HD or NTSC). If I understand you right, I may be out of luck on the NTSC material unless I overscan or mask. For the 4x3 HD material, I may be able to adjust. Just out of curiousity, what are your image settings for NTSC material? I moved mine all around and, of course, I forgot to write down the starting points.

There may be a way to adjust this internally. When I had the PJ open I noticed that this offset seemed to have a set that may be moved to get it closer. At least 5" sacrificing at the other end of the range. Maybe a call to Dwin and ask them if this is possible before screwing it up yourself.

MVideo- Is that HD200 an OTA tuner too feeding everything through DVI? If so, Cool! I didn't realize that. Soon I hope to have that 921 and then I'l have my first DVI source. I wonder if DVI will look as clean as the menus and Test charts? I can tell you this much, when I shoot video on DVCAM and edit to YUV betacam SP at 850 lines down to 550 lines analog, the DVCAM at 550Lines via 1394 looks far superior in sharpness. I expect this DVI to do the same level of difference between analog HDTV and all digital HDTV for channels like HDNet and DiscHDTheater. I know the film based channels will still look soft, but that's just the "film look"
I am so happy with this TV3 and I know with the DVI I will soon be even happier. DVI was one of the top deciding factors for me. I still find it amazing how many are ignoring that and more worried about CR.

godavego-

If you used PBS to set screen size, I would disagree with that. At least until I see what they have in their vertical interval. I had suggested using an HDNet image as they have a clean picture area full size, and if you can, they alsdo have SMPTE and special test patterns at certain times scheduled where you can calibrate your PJ, including the full HDTV image with overscan cal lines. This is what I used. Then using a 5% underscan setting for the vertical I found the happy setting to eliminate all the VITC and closed caption code for those broadcast stations and that worked also for 4:3 on HBO, Showtime, and broadcast stations as well as 480P 4:3 stuff on local FOX and ABC. If my prior description didn't make sense to you, maybe you are a good candidate for an ISF setup and calibration job. You may benefit greatly from it. If that is out of the question, and I understand, then at least get a setup DVD from Video Essentials? or AVIA and follow the process step by step. I have the AVIA. I also recorded the HDNet test chart set on DVHS.

Don - Yes, the DVI image is awesome - and text from a HDTV source pretty much looks just like the menus. The Sony SAT-200 HD receiver will combine OTA, cable, and satellite into the DVI output.

I am getting what looks like sparkles visible on dark backgrounds and I suspect that that's my cable (?) which is 50' and doesn't need to be, so I'm going to order a 30' and see if that improves things.

One problem with DVI that I've mentioned before - there is no way to adjust image size or position electronically when using DVI inputs. This is frustrating me because for some reason HDTV is resolving 1-1.5" higher than DVD requiring me to make manual, physical adjustments with the lens shift every time I go back and forth. I think this needs to be addressed by Dwin at some point.

"Ghost sightings" - I decreased the gain on all three colors 10% last night. I guess that will decrease light output, but it seemed to reduce the ghosting (logically). Am I screwing up the color balance? It looks good so far.

I didn't know the HD200 is also a cable tuner as well. Maybe I need to check that thing out more.

The 50ft. cable sparkles is a known problem. I use a 25' cable here.

The DVI issue being a higher picture alignment may be adjustable in the electronics or maybe in the factory menus. You should check that out. I don't use DVI yet but if there is an alignment issue with DVI, I'm sure all of us will need to be concerned about it soon when more people start using the DVI connections. Your's is the first I recall hearing about misalignment on DVI.

I think if you reduce the green by the same amoint as red and blue you will reduce brightness and shift color to a more magenta shift b ut the best way to tell is to have the gray scale calibrated vis a vis ISF calibration. Green will influence the color more than red and red more than blue. They are not equal or linear. I'm sure you did shift the white or color balance but maybe not enough to be annoying except to an ISF tech. If you reduced the Ghosts to gone then you may have gotten rid of the more annoying issue. You may need to reduce your red and blue more to keep the gray scale right. This is just theory on my part, however. I could be quite wrong on where your calibration is at with that "10%" as you put it.

Don -

Yeah the HD200 does OTA very nicely. The Zenith SAT520 is identical and made by Zenith (LG electronics) for Sony. The new Sony SAT-HD300 is the same box as the HD200 with a few nice new features - simultaneous SD/HD output which I'd use to feed a Tivo. Currently only one connector is lit up on the back panel. It also now comes with a dual IR/RF remote and as I understand it, the EZ-DVI feature will automatically, correctly synch to the source format (1080i, 720, etc.). All these model auto-tune and integrate the ATSC and NTSC channels in the same menu.

Since I already have the SAT520 I'm going to hold off buying one of these for the foreseeable future. Given the discussion going on in the HD Recorders forum about the coming HDTivo and given the fact that Directv hopefully start addressing IEEE 1394 support it makes sense for me to wait. Also see the FCC "Plug & Play" approval thread. This clears the way for Firewire support on cable boxes and should put the heat on DTV.

HDTivo
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=298628

FCC
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300400&highlight=fcc

kraig-

Thanks for the info. My current plans for the immediate future do not include a new DirecTV tuner but I do want to stay on top of what's happening. I am saving for the 921 and possibly a compatible DVHS mate for it. Too much unknown for now. Aside from the DVR advantage, I really want to see HDTV in DVI on my Dwin. What Mvideo said has me excited to get that kind of clarity over component analog.
DirecTV, may be next year for me after I see what they end up with on TIVO but the real question for DirecTV is programming. I'm afraid that without additional licenses for TP's they will fall way behind on HDTV channels even though they are king of the hill for the moment, well they were last week before Dish met their match and reduced the price by a buck! This game is quite amusing but with 8psk and the 105 slot with superdish, E* is set to win this game between the two.

Previously, I hadn't recalled seeing any ghosting on my projector. But then again, I haven't had a lot of white letters on black background. Or maybe I just thought the haze above the letters were supposed to be there. So last night I turned on the projector just to look for the ghosting that MVideo has been describing. I put in Saving Ryan's Privates and looked at the opening credits right before the waving flag. At there it was, a white shadow above each and every letter. Some almost looked like a negative image of the letters. As though there were a white background with black letters in the ghost image.

So I then magically got into the service menu ;D. I went into the test patterns to have a look at some of those. I pulled up the cross hatch pattern and there you could easily see the blue convergence was off. It's like a full pixel off to the upper right. I would love to take a picture and share but I seem to have misplaced my digital camera within the last month.

So, MVideo, I am sorry for not checking earlier, but I too have the same problems you are describing. I don't think it's the length of the cable because I have a 25 foot cable from DWIN which is the shortest they offer. I project onto a 123" 16:9 StudioTek130.

Can somebody briefly explain about this sparkle issue with 50-feet cable. Is it like a bright pixel seen from the screen? Is it in fixed location or random? I have mine connected with 40-ft cable but I don't see any random sparkles. I did report to my dealer regarding 2 bright pixels and they are at fixed location.

-twelly

Originally posted by Don Landis
The 50ft. cable sparkles is a known problem. I use a 25' cable here.

Don, I have installed several 50 ft runs for the TV3 and have not seen "sparkles." It's a known problem for DVI in general but not for the TV3 specifically made DVI. If it shows up one would likely have a bad cable. A matter of fact, DWIN is going to be releasing a 75 foot DVI in the near future (per discussions at CEDIA). These cables are engineered specifically for the TV3 and then made by Liberty Cable I believe. That's why they are able to get the distance that others can't.

If others have an issue with their 50 ft DWIN DVI, I would get it exchanged out.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Twelly, your 2 bright pixels might be pixels that are stuck in the "on" position. If so, I believe that DWIN will warrantee it for 1 pixel stuck "on" or 3 "off". I don't know if they will replace it or if you have to send it in for repair. Your dealer should be able to tell if it is a stuck pixel. Don't quote me on that warrantee but I'm sure people here know exactly what the warrantee is for stuck pixels.

Brent- I'm sure you are right on about the 50 ft. Dwin brand cable being trouble free in your installs. Maybe Mvideo could try a replacement. The point is that he doesn't need 50ft. and a 30 ft would do, so my statement stands as suggesting go with the shortest cable you need as opposed to coiling up 20 ft. of the 50ft. cable. Until someone can show me why having a 50ft. cable is better than the 30 he needs, I'll recommend the shorter one. Sparkles has been an issue for non-dwin 50 ft. cables in the past and has been well documented to be a result of a cable too long, remedied by a shorter one or one from a different manufacturer that is capable.

I have some time this afternoon to grab that 1 pixel blue edge if I can get my digital camera to focus that close. I'll try the test patterns too.

Yes Don - minimal is always better - unless you're planning to move and might need the longer length later.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

OK- Here is a real close up shot from the test pattern. I also had some time to study some of the chroma bleeding we have been seeing at various levels and positions for a rough analysis.


IT seems that a study of several pictures I took with white balance not adjusted clearly demonstrated that the so called convergence issue is not from the dlp chip or the wheel but seems to be an artifact of the optics. I observed that the text image near the top of the screen was fairly clean with excellent pixel definition, ie no color blooming.
Near the bottom, I detected a very noticeable blooming off the top edge of the text pixels a violet/green and in some cases very close to the bottom red. Dare I say it- Red Orange, yellow green indigo and violet. The colors of the spectrum. Additionally it must be pointed out that this color artifact is not defined and impossible to focus. Since it is mostly near the bottom of the screen and completely gone near the top the effect seems to be as a result of the lens offset where the image is being projected through the lens elements at an angle rather than straight through the lens centerpoint. They do this to avoid the keystone issues but seem to generate a minor degree of refraction in optics distortion. I would lay huge sums of money now that this is NOT a DLP issue but one of optics and lens offset distortion creating the prisim refraction defect. I would guess that the more offset you have the greater this defect would be.

The interesting thing is that once I learned how to focus my camera on 6 inches and get the actual pixels (including the dimple) I could clearly see that the refraction color distortion was not in focus at all and was totally separate from the pixels.

Interesting. I can corroborate your observation visa vie differences between the top of the image and bottom.

Do you think then that this can be minimized by reducing the lens offset wheel to minimum (so the image is being projected as near to the center of the optics as possible) and then physically adjust the image downward using the mount?

I suppose this would come at the expense of keystone distortion, so I guess the trick would be to strike the best balance between the two along with judicious use of side-masking to mitigate the keystone.

Calls for some experimentation. Maybe we're breaking new ground in terms of evaluation and setup of digital projectors.

See what happens when CRT guys go digital! :eek:

I don't feel it is worth the risk of keystone distortion. I don't beleive Dwin has allowed for a keystone adjustment at all considering they insist on a level projector and set the image height based on lens offset. This makes the bottom of the image have the greatest angle through the lens on a ceiling mount. The least distortion would be one that uses the minimum offset or a PJ mounted near the top of the screen. My guess is the refraction distortion of the lens offset is far less artifact than a keystone correction with a pixel based imager. With the CRT, you have everything analog and that will keystone correct much nicer.

Good point. This presents an argument for a drop mount to bring the projector as close to the 6" minimum offset, doesn't it?

I guess the effect increases with screen size as well.

And, lets add another setup tweak while we're at it. Putting the projector towards the back of the screen-pj range would reduce the angle that the image is projected through the bottom, wouldn't it - but thats compromising optics because of increased zoom.

Wow...maybe I should just go watch a movie.

As a Matter of fact, I do have my system mounted such that I use the minimum offset. I designed it that way. Your second comment I would disagree with. It is actually less optical distortion to use full zoom from a long distance than up close as once again your image is using less glass curvature. The down side of this long range is that you suffer a more sensitive focus adjustment than when working wide. Everything is a tradeoff. The good part is these issues are so minor at normal viewing that it really doesn't matter.
The "Wow..." I completely agree with! :) What's good on tonight? I found nothing to record this morning and the time shifting tape is already viewed.
Do I go rent a DVD?

But if the problem were due to a rainbow effect from light through the lens, wouldn't the blue just be above the white instead of up and right of the white?

Don't underwater cameras suffer from problems like this? They have to have extra lenses to correct for the rainbowing and for the fisheye effect. Maybe DWIN needs something similar.

And my projector is near the max distance and around 2 feet above the screen. I will look and see if the so called blue misconvergence is the same across the whole screen or not. Memory says yes, but memory also said I didn't have the problem to start with.

Toxarch-

So, would you really consider this a "problem"?

How close to the screen do you have to be to notice it?

Has it had any negative impact on the PQ from your normal seating position?

It just seems that when we start taking pictures 6 inches from the screen, maybe we are being a bit overly picky, aren't we?

Rob- Yes indeed. However the analysis is to help others like MVideo determine the extent of what may be a defect and what others like myself are seeing. I am not saying what I have pictured is a defect but most likely, I say it is state of the art. Not perfect but state of the art. The actual color artifact is you measure it in the photo looks to be 1/2 pixel wide and blurry compared to the pixel with dimple which is in focus and well defined.

Underwater cameras suffer a water - air distortion linear difference of .75 refractive index. This will cause objects to look 25% closer and 33% larger than real. It's not the same thing since the PJ lens works against air, not water. The correction for underwater is to shoot the picture through a domed port. All this does is correct for air lens operation. The concave inside shape of the underwater dome port is such that a lens that is 35mm in air remains 35mm underwater. Without the dome it would be equal to a 50mm in air lens.
In my Dwin theory that is causing this colored edge, I am saying that very tiny microscopic imperfections in the lens surface is causing the prism effect or refraction on that edge where white meets black. Instead of it being perfect edge (impossible in the real world) the edge suffers the artifact of the degree of roughness of the lens curve on a microscopic level. All lenses, no matter how good, are not perfect. The degree of imperfection is manifested in that colored blurry edge. Do you recall the study of limits in Physics? When we project an amplification of the picture size with the projector and then analyze a tiny section of that image we are disecting the quality on a level probably measured in microns at the lens and dlp. Picky- yes if we wish to demand perfection but no when attempting to just establish a benchmark of the state of the art. Until someone can show his dlp is better than 1/2 pixel size artifact in the optics then I will assume what I have measured as the best I've seen!

Here is my best effort at adding to the artifact by emphasizing those factors like extreme offset- In this case I had to adjust my projector to the other end of the offset scale and angle the PJ head to get this at the bottom of the screen. Color is boosted to see the blue cast into the black and this is measured at about 2.5 pixels thick artifact or about 5 times the size of the artifact when my PJ is properly configured as before-

In addition- I also feel that while I am using a matte white 1.0 gain screen, those using a 1.3 gain screen may be adding to the prism effect due to that screens design of adding a shaped clear coat that adds gain to the central viewing angle while reducing brightness off central. This coating on the screen may add to the prism color due to its own surface imperfections as compared to a perfectly flat reflective surface.

Wow Don - I had to squint at my wide screen LCD monitor to look at that - quite blinding, yet a very good exaggerated example.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

If the surface of any optical component is not perfect it contains a quantity of tiny prisms that can create the artifact as shown in this picture I found demonstrating the refraction and dispersion effect of a prism-

Since these microscopic prisms are scattered all about the dispersed light exiting is nort well defined but also scattered about the white pixels on the black background and not focusable.

The additive components to this dispersion are-
1. Lens offset
2. Lens optics quality
3. Screen surface design from 1.0
4. Screen surface quality from theoretical flat.

Considering the Dwin is a given then the factors we have control over are lens offset and screen choice. If we select a screen with some gain then the final controlling factor to reducing this artifact is lens offset.

And just for fun- Here is a self portrait silhouette so you can see the screen (in B&W)

Don,

Isn't one of DWIN's attribute is the lack of prism in it's optical path?

But yes, any lens or optical unit would have an effect.

I don't think there is any prism between the DLP chip and the lens. Unless the projection through only part of the lens is causing a prism effect.

I think this artifact is due to the lens. I turned on the projector and had a look at the B&W sqares test pattern. On the left side of the screen, the blue is on the upper right of the white box. In the middle, the blue is on the top of the white box. And on the right, the blue is on the upper left of the white box. So it would seem that the lens is causing the blue light shift.

Is this a "problem"? No, just something that I would prefer not to be there. How close do you have to be to see it? Within probably 5 feet to really see it. I can't really see it from the seats. Now the ghosting from white letters on black background I can see from the back of the room. But I never paid attention to it until we started looking for it. For example, I never noticed the DLP rainbow effect until I read about it and started looking for it. Then I saw it a lot. Now, I hardly ever see it. It's not a flaw until you know about it, and then it's not as bad as we sometimes make it out to be.

Well, it looks like three times is a charm.

The current projector is the best of the three I've had mounted. The ghost is visible, the blue refraction is there - but it seems to be better than the last two, and I'm now satisfied that what I am seeing is common to all TV3's.

While I was up there, I rerouted my power cable to run around the projector in the back and then to the power input and that has completely eliminated the "sparkles" I was seeing - so pay attention to keeping your A/C away from the video. I'm glad that I routed the A/C and video lines from opposite sides of the room. The closest they get to each other is at the projector.

Now I can relax and watch some movies! I think we've all learned a lot from our analysis and I know what to look for when I demo for my next digital projector! In the mean time, I'm satisfied that we have the best that $10k can buy in picture quality.

I'm sure I'll still see the ghosting once in a while, but until perfection comes along, I'll be happy.

Toxarch - hope you're not mad at me for pointing out the ghosts!

Is everyone suggesting to not use a 1.3 gain screen? I planned on having an offset of about 22" out of the suggested range of 6" to 29" for my 110" screen, is that too much of an offset?

Isn't one of DWIN's attribute is the lack of prism in it's optical path?

I don't think there is any prism between the DLP chip and the lens. Unless the projection through only part of the lens is causing a prism effect.






Prism? I think I lost many of you in the discussion of microanalytics. I wasn't talking about a big chunk of prism glass here. This was about microscopic defects in the lens surface and the screen coating surface. I was referring to imperfections in the curve that are really many many microscopic pores and peaks that will generate a prism dispersion effect on light.

Had I seen actual pixels turning blue and some red with the main cluster white, then I would be blaming the DLP but this wasn't the case.


What DLP uses a prism? How about 3 chip DLP? None of the single chip DLP's would need a prism. It uses the color wheel and a single light beam.


Nobody's suggesting not using a 1.3 gain screen. What I'm suggesting is for reducing the blue glow around the whites on black background, try to design your system with as little offset as you can.


I agree that the half pixel edge can be seen at 5 ft on my 92" wide screen. But that is on a checkerboard white/black test pattern. I'm in the habit of watching movies and I can't see any of these issues from 5 ft. except the screendoor. Since I sit at 14 ft. even that is gone!



Ghosts? Still don't see them. Even photographs of black screen taken into photoshop and brightness and contrast tinkered with does not show anything other than what is supposed to be there. The Ghost you two are seeing is unique to your HT. I can't agree that it is with all TV3's and Marantz S2's as I recall your dealer said he also had. I have run out of ideas without a real Ghost to experiment with!

No MVideo, I am not mad at you for pointing it out. I probably would have noticed eventually.

The DLP has mirrors that all turn the same direction when moving to the off position right? Could the ghosting be caused by light still reflecting off the surface of the mirrors as the mirror moves into the off position? Does the mirror move to the off position and then back to on between each color when displaying white? Couldn't that slight light reflection during the movement of the mirror cause the ghosting we are seeing? And it is easily seen with white on black background because we have small white letters on a big black background in a dark room. BTW, this is all just speculation.

Toxarch-
The issue with the "rainbows" was describbed by me as a "phenomenon" because only some people could see it while others were affected so bad they claimed health issues as a result. I finally figured out how to teach someone to see the rainbows and then to unlearn the phenomenon.
I'm now asking if this ghost effect is similar in that one must do something to detect it in the black region. You can't photograph a rainbow and I have yet to see either of you show a photo of a ghost. The one I believe MVideo put up was a rendition, not an actual photo. You are suggesting a cause but do you have any thoughts on how to test and confirm your hypothesis.

For any who do see the ghost, can you influence it or does it remain static.
Things to test-
1. Present in moving or just static images.
2. Present in black on white background or only white on black background.
3. Viewing angle- does it change depending on where you see the screen.
4. Must you dart your eyes; dart in a specific fashion?
5. Does the ghost follow the exact geometry and focus of the primary image or does it have a different color and shape distortion from the primary image?
6. Do different screen materials affect it- Let's start testing other than the studiotek 130 which is what I believe you are using.
7. How is ghost affected by the crescent light spill fix, ie lens cap on or off?
8. Can you move it differently from the primary image with lens shift adjustment?

These are just my initial suggestions on things to test it with to try to get some idea as to what affects the ghost and what is causing this in your system.

Don - it was a rendition, I haven't been able to capture it on film. My dealer has a greyhawk sample that I've asked him to bring tomorrow with the new screen, so I'll be able to tell you weather it appears on that material by tomorrow night.

As to your questions.

Originally posted by Don Landis
Toxarch-

For any who do see the ghost, can you influence it or does it remain static.
Things to test-
1. Present in moving or just static images. BOTH
2. Present in black on white background or only white on black background. WHITE ON BLACK ONLY.
3. Viewing angle- does it change depending on where you see the screen. NO
4. Must you dart your eyes; dart in a specific fashion? NO.
5. Does the ghost follow the exact geometry and focus of the primary image or does it have a different color and shape distortion from the primary image? OUT OF FOCUS, BUT OTHER WISE A REPLICA (HENCE "GHOST".)
6. Do different screen materials affect it- Let's start testing other than the studiotek 130 which is what I believe you are using. I'LL LET YOU KNOW. SO FAR I'VE ONLY SEEN IT OR HEARD OF IT ON 1.3 SCREENS.
7. How is ghost affected by the crescent light spill fix, ie lens cap on or off? NO EFFECT.
8. Can you move it differently from the primary image with lens shift adjustment? IT MOVES WITH THE PRIMARY IMAGE.

These are just my initial suggestions on things to test it with to try to get some idea as to what affects the ghost and what is causing this in your system.

mvideo-

Sometime I'm in NY doing my TV shows, I'll have to give you a call to see if we can see your ghosts. I usually stay in White Plains and I believe Carmel is only about 30 minutes away. If we do 2 days work up there I'll be staying overnight and can get an evening off. Last 3 trips, I was just there for the day.
Anyway- I'm still mystified over what is causing this. What screen are you switching to from your current studiotek 1.0? I guess that scrolling credits is a mess on your system with all the ghosting in the black. MIne are nice and tight and the black is totally black. Better than my CRT! but I know that is because the whites are so bright I get a black level boost due to my eye's iris stopping down.
Is your room dark or do you have white ceiling and walls, light colored floor? Since it is out of focus, I was wondering if you have some sort of reflection going on from something in the room, like glass covered pictures on the rear wall or glass or anything reflective in the room that the screen is seeing as a secondary light source.

I have some screen samples I will try to test. I have 2'x2' Stewart and DaLite screen samples. I know that I do not have a firehawk sample, but I do have a GreyHawk sample I can try for a grey screen test.

My room walls are all dark flat blue. The seats are like a khaki color (Sam's Berkline recliners) and the carpet is the same color with dark colors mixed in, nothing that would reflect or send light to the screen except for light bulbs.

I would take pictures, but my digital camera seems to be misplaced ATM.

The DaLite samples are not where they are supposed to be, so I still need to find those. I did try the greyhawk piece and the ghost was still there, but was a little dimmer than on the studiotek. I also noticed that the blue bar for the DWIN menu also shows a light blue ghost above it.

The only other thing I saw was that I could realy notice the ghost from the very far edges of the screen. Like standing in the front corner and looking to the center of the screen.

Toxarch- Sure is looking like you and MVideo have something coming from your projectors that I certainly don't have. You and he need to go to a TV3 installation that claims to be Ghost free and see if you see the ghost there too. Do you both wear glasses? I often want to verify that issue as well because I know glasses can cause some glare distortion, or secondary imaging.

Don - I'm currently using a fixed 1.3 - my dealer is installing a 1.3 electrimask today because my fixed screen is in front of a window. The 1.3 material was specified months ago, but I might have stepped it down had I known about this issue earlier. No glasses by the way and it can be seen by everyone I've pointed it out to - so it's not my internal optics. :) Let me know when you're going to be in town, we'll definitely get together.

Toxarch - I see it over the menu too. I mentioned that a few pages back. I've seen this on at least three projectors now, yours makes four and I remember someone else was experiencing something similar, so thats 5.

Don, you mentioned that you designed your system for minimal offset. Were you able to get 6"? I thought the same thing for my theater. Given that the doc says "around 6 inches", I set up for 7" of offset. After trying several options and getting sick of keystone, I ended up having to lower my screen an inch. Apparently, minimum 6" of offset is a ballpark number, so before you put your screen up, I recommend you see what your projector can do. In my case, 7.5-8" is the minimum offset.

Minimum 6" offset - your mileage may vary...

I recommend you see what your projector can do.

I totally agree. I planned where my screen would hang based on the calculator.
I drew an outline in chalk where the screen would be then mounted the pj. The image turned out to be about 2.5" lower than the chalk outline. I then mounted the screen and all is well. Damn the Bills/Miami game looked sweet in HD on ESPN! Pats next week on CBS!!!
FREAK!

Actually, it ended up being that way because I had several obstacles to clear such as a ceiling fan with light globe below that between the PJ and the screen, plus my screen and mask system was already mounted and image centered for the floor mounted CRT. The final variable was the Dwin and how long the drop pipe needed to be. As it turned out I'm equal to 8.5" offset using a drop pipe of 19" plus mounting hardware like the angled ceiling bracket and the Peerless ball mount. It would certainly be a poor design to build it for exact minimum and only have adjustment one way. Also, my screen is actually a variable size/aspect ratio screen and while I'm only using 53" of height centered, it really offers 69" for 4X3 AR. It is electric roll down with 4 masks. My restrictions were more in that I wanted my mask calibrations for the CRT's 16x9 image to be the same on the Dwin.

Mvideo- OK, that rules out the glasses glare idea. I'm running out of ideas. Maybe someday I'll see this ghost too and come up with more ideas.
I suppose you have seen installations where it is NOT present?

No glasses here either. Maybe it's because we have the blue cover and you have the white cover. Maybe not.

I wonder if Brent could get me a free replacement for my DWIN. Even if it doesn't solve the ghost problem, I could get a projector with a new bulb. Brent, you didn't read that.

Hey Toxarch, I'll deliver it today - sorry for the wait

Brent Huskins
Media Design

I agree. Planning for the minimal offset is not a good idea. For me, my basement only has 7' ceilings, so I was trying to keep the screen as high as possible. I figured 7" from the ceiling would be a good compromise. Thankfully, my setup didn't make it too hard to lower the screen an inch to make it work out. If I wanted to rip the projector mount off, I also thought about moving my projector up a bit. Because of my ceiling constructor, it ws possible to build a recessed mount 1.5" up, but it was easier to lower the screen. A recessed mount would make it very difficult to adjust the projector mount.

Based on this admitted small sample, however, it sounds like DWIN is taking some liberties with the 6" number. I can understand being off by a little, but I doubt I was the first person who planned for and built a large portion of their theater before getting the projector. Having the projector specs off by as much as 2" can cause a problem.

That's IT! The blue cover. I knew it had to be something illogical since we exhausted all the logical stuff.

I like the new bulb con. I just checked mine and I hit 1000 hours on Sunday! I am now at $.45 per hour plus depreciation to watch TV3.

Don,

Pardon my ignorance, but can you provide more details about this blue cover which is causing the blue ghosting as you discovered.

-twelly

Twelly:
I think Don was making a joke about the color of the cover causing this problem with the ghosting.

Although I have a white tv3 and it doesn't ghost...hmmm.....:)

-sonny

Originally posted by kraigk
When you put up the first test pattern, the crosshatch, do you see a blue line on the edge of the white test pattern lines? Does it border the left of the diamonds on the left of the screen, the right on the right and both left and right in the middle of the screen? Not sure if this blue shoudl be there. Dwin wasn't too eager to hookup a projector to compare. I've got the calibrator coming back in a half hour with an HD signal generator and I'd like to know whether or not you have this blue line.

Hey everybody a while back I was asking the above question. Is this the ghosting your talking about? The thread is below from page 28 of the TV3 owners thread. On one hand I'm not too concerned as I rarely see the issue when watching anything. On the other hand the isf calibrator thought it was totally unacceptable and saw it on everything.

DWIN doesn't like these isf guys looking at their stuff. I got that feeling from Roger a while back...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263971&perpage=20&pagenumber=28

KraigK- I have viewed it as two separate issues. I have the blue glow surrounding white on black and this is controllable depending on PJ controllable factors but it is very minor in size. the way MVideo describbed the ghost it was like a double image and he posted a rendition of it but has yet to do a photo. I am classifying this ghost in the category of phenomenon for the time being. As we all know, no one has photographed the rainbows phenomenon either.

Regarding mounting and offset, I will be mounting my Dwin later this week (unless something unforeseen occurs).

Is it better to mount the projector first followed by the screen, or vice versa?

Any other tips regarding mounting the pj and screen are welcome!

Mount the PJ first.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

I've alway mounted the screen first because you can very precisely center the projector mount using intersecting arcs from the screen corners. Of course with the play in the mounting system you can adjust for small centering mistakes fairly easily.

On the other hand, if you're near the limits for vertical offset and aren't using a mount with adjustable height, then mounting the PJ first has advantages.

If you have the option of mounting either where they "need to be", then figure out the distance location of the projector and where in that range it works the best. Then mount the screen accordingly. Some people have certain restrictions on one or the other (ie. screen has to be mounted in an alcove or something). In those cases mount the more critical one first, and then take careful measurements for the other.

Thanks!