Please forgive me if I'm presuming too much but I would recommend that you do some further reading before you go into the SM of your TV to calibrate it. :)

There are a lot of people here who can help with calibrating a Samsung DLP but you might be on your own with the RCA. Who knows what monsters may be lurking.

Originally posted by fbiba
Re the service manual: I will do the calibrations sometime next week.


Be cautious!


I am a little scared about the 720p issue that has cropped up here. I don't know what other HD's have DVI (P?), but I know the Samsung does not have DVI at all.

Which Samsung are you referring to? The HLM and HLN DLP sets all have DVI with a full digital path. The DVI port accepts 480p, 720p, and 1080i input. Anything that isn't 720p is converted to 720p before it is displayed using the 1280x720 DLP chip.

If we cannot input 720p, I assume that the RCA takes only 1080i and then down-converts to 720p!

From any external device (not including the internal tuner) the RCA DLP accepts all inputs other than 720p and converts them to 720p for display on it's 1280x720 DLP.


I have DVD players, but they output to component, not DVI. I am curious if DVI is any better than component from the viewer's standpoint. I would assume that theoretically DVI would be better being straight digital to digital.


That's been the experience of Samsung DLP owners. They find that by avoiding the analog conversion required to use component input they get better PQ for DVD movies. The DVI capable DVD players convert 480i to 720p digitally and then output the image to the Samsung DLP via DVI.


I am just getting into this stuff, and I don't know which format is most common for devices such as DVD players, but I get the feeling that most output 720p to TV.

Older DVD players output 480i (non-progressive) as analog through component. I haven't looked for a new one but they probably exist. My Sony that I've had for a few years is one.

Newer DVD players output either 480i (non-progressive) or 480p (progressive) as analog through component. Almost all DVD players on the market are progressive -- even the new DVI models.

A few of the newest DVD players add the ability to output 480p, 1080i, or 720p digitally via DVI. At the moment there are only three available for a reasonable price in the US.


If this turns out to be a problem when I upgrade my DVD devices or wish to use any other device that outputs 720p to DVI, I hope that RCA will allow a conversion, either by firmware or, luckily, by software update. That may just be a pipe dream though.


Probably. :(

Frank
There is no need to be concerned about DVI input devices except to enable HDMI as long as the RCA puts all external inputs through an analog stage. I haven't had a chance to see DVD movies through component on a RCA DLP yet. They may be fine. The Samsung looks better using DVI partly because it's component inputs don't do such a great job. Maybe RCA does a better job than Samsung with these inputs.

What does the RCA do with the 720p signal if it doesn't accept 720p via DVI or component? Does this mean you would be unable to watch any programming with a 720p source?

If you send the RCA a 1080i source it converts it to 720p? Is this correct?

If the RCA receives a 720p

a. will not display a picture rendering the set useless for all 720p
programming
b. converts the 720p to something else. In this case it does converting
like other TVs that don't receive the signal in its native format.

Originally posted by soarski
What does the RCA do with the 720p signal if it doesn't accept 720p via DVI or component?


You get an error message.


Does this mean you would be unable to watch any programming with a 720p source?


No. You would have your STB convert all signals to 1080i before it sends them to the RCA via DVI or Component.


If you send the RCA a 1080i source it converts it to 720p? Is this correct?


Yes.


If the RCA receives a 720p

a. will not display a picture rendering the set useless for all 720p
programming
b. converts the 720p to something else. In this case it does converting
like other TVs that don't receive the signal in its native format.

The RCA can't receive a 720p signal. If you want to watch a 720p source it must be converted to 1080i before it is sent to either the component or DVI inputs on the RCA.

The internal tuner receives 720p without problems.

Although this has been mentioned (as part of the CES coverage), I thought it appropriate to specifically mention the new RCA DLP sets that are being developed.

"At the 2004 International Consumer Electronics Show, Thomson today unveiled the 6.85" thin Profiles HDTV -- the new RCA Scenium ultra-thin Digital Cable Ready integrated rear-projection DLP HDTV Sets featuring slim cabinets less than seven inches deep and so light in weight they can be easily mounted on a wall. The sleek new designs in HDTV Sets will be available in 50-inch and 61-inch models later in 2004 (and in a stunning 70-inch mural-sized screen in 2005) and feature integrated ATSC tuner/decoder and Digital Cable Ready circuitry designed to capture the realism of HDTV broadcasts aired by terrestrial broadcasters and carried by cable operators to consumers.

Designed and integrated by Thomson, the sleek RCA Scenium Profiles HDTV Sets are equipped with the leading-edge DLP microdisplay from Texas Instruments and utilize a newly developed InFocus Light Engine. The exclusive Thomson electromechanical design of Profiles HDTV will bring consumers an outstanding ultra-thin design and stunning lifelike pictures on giant projection screens that make digital entertainment - and not the television - the centerpiece of a high-definition home theatre."

Another quote from RCA on their emphasis on DLP sets.

"Our big push this year is in DLP-based rear-projection televisions," said Dave Arland, a spokesman for Thomson, which announced in November that it would merge its TV manufacturing business with TCL Electronics of China. "We won't come out with a $30,000 TV, but we will be a soup-to-nuts television manufacturer."

Here perhaps is a technical explanation of the video noise that I saw on the RCA DLP TVs at Best Buy. This is from an article on the LG DLP.

"Sadly, once it's up and running the 44SZ20RD doesn't live up to the hype. Its biggest flaw is a flickering/ sparkling effect over large areas of colour. Up close, it's as if the pixels are flickering on and off and, although less noticeable at a distance, it still makes pictures appear noisy. Large banks of the same or similar colours, such as the rolling green fields in Fellowship of the Ring, are alive with noise, while backgrounds such as walls appear pitted and grainy. LG claims that this is the result of the 44SZ20RD picking up signal noise."

Paul...

I own a 50inch RCA Scenium DLP and in all honesty.....I don't have the problems or noise you mention here. By the way, what is a "LG DLP"?

I saw the noise. It was distracting, but in spite of it, I think it *does* live up to the hype. The colors are right, and the shadow detail is better than the Samsung DLP.

Is this a "Plasma-Killer"? I would think so if you can hang it on the wall.

Frank

Well, that remains to be seen. I would think they need work on the two areas mentioned, completing the all digital path so that it accepts 720p native input from an external set top box, and getting rid of the video noise/grain/sparklies.

It will also be interesting to see if they can maintain the sharp optical focus once they offer the 7 inch slim depth. I would be concerned primarily about optical distortion, possible chromatic abberations, pincushion distortion, vignetting from the wide angle, short throw optical system.

So while the concept of a plasma killer is attractive, I think it will be hard to actually do.

"By the way, what is a LG DLP"

Lucky Goldstar (they also make Zenith). This was from a British magazine. I also read a review in another British magazine about the 34" Thomson (RCA's parent). In that article they were also complaining about digital video noise in that tube set.

Perhaps the video noise problem is only on the Best Buy sets - it may use a different circuitry.

A 7" thick set would fill a niche market. I think 7" is a bit too thick to fit on the wall and look good, but it could be used in some built in locations. If RCA is going to put a several thousand dollar premium on this technology, it may not sell well.

Originally posted by Old Pirate
Paul...

I own a 50inch RCA Scenium DLP and in all honesty.....I don't have the problems or noise you mention here. By the way, what is a "LG DLP"?
Here are some threads about LG product.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3004130#post3004130

http://us.lge.com/products/models/rear_projection_index.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336996

LG has annouced a new DLP at CES.

Here is some information on the Infocus 61" thin DLP that RCA will be using as a basis for its 61" thin DLP. I wonder how the pricing and picture quality will compare. It would be nice if these TV's used the new 1080p DLP chip. It hey did this would put them at a competitive advantage over the 720P plasma TVs.

WILSONVILLE, Ore., January 7, 2004 ? InFocus? (Nasdaq: INFS), the worldwide leader in digital projection and services, today announced and previewed the InFocus ScreenPlay? 61-inch microdisplay television. The new InFocus ScreenPlay television is a break-through in ultra-thin, rear projection displays, which is light and thin enough to hang on a wall, while generating a superior image quality relative to other thin television options.

Historically, rear-projection televisions have been bulky, heavy and took up valuable living space. InFocus? innovative technology enables rear-projection in a thin format that is preferable to consumers. The InFocus ScreenPlay television integrates proprietary, patent-pending engine and screen technology with a microdisplay currently utilizing Texas Instruments? award-winning DLP? technology. This revolutionary television will be sold through specialty consumer channels where prior relationships that InFocus developed through its front projection home theater solutions will provide the new, thin television access to big screen enthusiasts who demand stellar image quality.

Paul...

I spent some time looking hard at the difference between PQ on my RCA Scenium as far as source of signals are concerned. I did this to be fair in my responses to you and others.

Here is an honest appraisal:

1) HD signals.....whether they are coming through the cable at 720p or 1080i my SA 3500HD converts them all to 1080i and I have no fuss with the PQ nor does anyone else who has visited or lives in the house. True 1080i signals recorded and broadcast in 1080i are stunning. 720p whether through the OTA tuner or the cable box are slightly less 3D, but still excellent.

2) Digital SD signals. Again, these are very clear and can be "zoomed" with little distortion or video noise.

3) Analog SD signals. They are not good. But no worse than any blown picture I can find. I have an LCD set also, and they are bad on that screen too. Analog will be around for a few more years, but more and more source providers are switching to digital and HD so I'm looking at the future and not to concerned with past broadcast technology. Give this set a "modern" signal and you get a "modern" crisp picture.

4) DVD's - My progressive scan DVD hooked through component provides a very clear picture whether the DVD is a full screen, wide screen, or anamorphic version. Occasionally on some DVD's you have dithering, but since it doesn't happen most of the time I have to believe its the DVD player or the DVD itself.

5) OTA signals are great in HD and very good in digital and poor in analog, just as the cable signals fade from great to poor depending on signal type.

As I've said before, the Samsung DLP's seem to be good units, but some of these absurd comments about RCA can't be proven; at least with my tv.

The service should I need it I can't speak to....I haven't needed any warranty service, but I know who would do it should I need it and as you know that one aspect is comforting since they are quite reputable.

Technology will continue to improve and each manufacturer will get better and each current owner must simply accept what they have as being temporary since TV's don't last a persons lifetime to begin with. The next time I buy a TV may be 6 to 8 years from now and what will my options be then? Who knows?

Right now I think all of us DLP owners, no matter the manufacturer, are enjoying visual treats beyond the average tv viewer. Don't you?

Just an update on my lemon of an RCA that didn't work from the minute it was unboxed .... the service company came last week and had a good look at it, took off the back and tried a few different things but nothing made it start up properly. So he took it back to the service center. Shortly after he left we called the store we bought the TV from and said we wanted a new one. So ... RCA Canada (or here in Ontario anyways) is getting a new shipment in about 10 days, and our store will have them a couple of days after that. So I guess I have about two weeks to wait until we have our new RCA and it better work this time!

BTW last Wed- approx 24 hrs after we called RCA in the US- Oklahoma, they called us back to find out what happened with the tv. At that time the tv had just been taken to the service depot. I'm pleased that RCA said they would follow up on our situation and that they did call when they said they would. Now lets see what happens from here.

Sounds like RCA is responding to your problem.

"Right now I think all of us DLP owners, no matter the manufacturer, are enjoying visual treats beyond the average tv viewer. Don't you?"

I agree, about 20 years ago I built a Heathkit front projection TV. It used a 74" silver parabolic hard surface screen. At that time I couldn't believe my eyes. Because of the size and need for low light conditions it was relegated to the basement. Now I have the Samsung 61" DLP that because of its small footprint I can put in my family room. I find watching high definition pictures an outstanding experience. The things I like best about DLP technology is no mis-convergence and no blooming of the picture on bright objects. I hope you get may years of pleasure out of you RCA DLP.

I just bought the Samsung 931 DVI DVD player and hooked it up to the RCA 61"DLP. The picture is very very good, I must say.

The TV will not accept the 720P signal thru DVI, this we knew. The 1080i mode is fantastic, let there be no doubts. I need to start watching all my movies over again!

There may be signal conversions going on, but it looks great to my eye!

Great info Kito....keep us other RCA owners informed.

I'm going to make a lot of people roll their eyes when I say I'm waiting for a nice RCA DVI DVD player to show up so I can hook up.

LOL!

Originally posted by PaulGo
"Right now I think all of us DLP owners, no matter the manufacturer, are enjoying visual treats beyond the average tv viewer. Don't you?"

I agree, about 20 years ago I built a Heathkit front projection TV. It used a 74" silver parabolic hard surface screen. At that time I couldn't believe my eyes. Because of the size and need for low light conditions it was relegated to the basement. Now I have the Samsung 61" DLP that because of its small footprint I can put in my family room. I find watching high definition pictures an outstanding experience. The things I like best about DLP technology is no mis-convergence and no blooming of the picture on bright objects. I hope you get may years of pleasure out of you RCA DLP.


That's why i chuckle when some people talk about wanting to make sure their next TV lasts for 20 years. Even if it could, would you want it to?

Hello again, TV Gurus:

I just returned from Dallas, and I spent some time at Fry's Electronics where I stumbled onto a display that had the RCA 50" DLP and a Samsung 50" (yes, 50") display right beside it. To my horror the RCA picture reminded me of the "golden age" of TV with 60' towers, rotators, and boosters. The picture was terrible; it was very grainy, there were noise bars scrolling on the screen, and the picture was not sharp. The Samsung looked fine. All I can assume is that there was a bad connection to the RCA, because I have never seen an RCA look bad at any other dealership.
The channel (for both TV's) was DTV's rendition of Discover HD. Go figure.

If I can get Dish Network to shop up and do my installation (five, yes, FIVE postponements because of "no stock" of the 811HD receivers), I am anxiously waiting to see if I can set that box for 1080i out so I can use the DVI connection to my RCA. That way I can do a comparison of DVI v Component HD to the screen.

To HGoodMan and HTwaits: I have decided to wait on my calibration attempts via the service manual until a technician comes here to check out my problems:

1. TV turns off by itself, sometimes turns back on.
2. Guide + is all screwed up, wrong channels, sometimes fails to get signal.
3. 1394: No audio or video even though TV recognizes my two DV devices.
4. Web browser is worthless; often have to shut off TV to get out of it.
5. Video input must be connected to get audio out from any inputs.
6. No way to arbitrarily add channels; only can scan for channels.

#1 and #2 might be serious problems. #3 through #6 are probably pilot error or just limitations of this particular TV. My dealer said that I should have a technician out to check these. I will also bribe him to do a calibration. Then I will *look* (but not touch until I am confident) at the service manual diagnostics and adjustments. Thanks to HTWaits for the good advice to be cautious.

HTWaits: Sorry about my earlier post saying that the Samsung does not have a DVI output. Mia culpa. Duh! I found it on the back of the Samsung.

HTWaits: You said that there are three DVD players (recorders?) that have DVI output that can be set to 480p, 720p, or 1080i. If I could get one that allows a setting of 1080i, I might buy one for my RCA. I have a pretty good Panasonic DVD player/recorder now which outputs component, and it looks pretty good.

HTWaits: Thanks for the excellent explanation of 480, 720, 1080 conversions.

Old Pirate: I like your appraisal of your RCA addressed to Paul. The only thing that I disagree with is #2: ...can be "zoomed" with little distortion or video noise." The stretch mode to me is very irritating. I feel that I am in a virtual fun house where people and things are grossly distorted. Somehow a 500 lb. newscaster is not very realistic.

Lastly, I looked at the 43" Samsung and the 50" RCA at my dealer again, and I must agree that, at least for satellite input (component for both in this case) on DTV's HDNet channels was sharper and with less noise on the SAMSUNG. I think that I am correct in assuming that a conversion must be done on BOTH the Samsung and the RCA when inputting COMPONENT signals to them. I would like to have seen DVI input to the Samsung (not possible with the receiver to the RCA in the store).

Lots of variables here!

Frank

Originally posted by fbiba

HTWaits: You said that there are three DVD players (recorders?) that have DVI output that can be set to 480p, 720p, or 1080i. If I could get one that allows a setting of 1080i, I might buy one for my RCA. I have a pretty good Panasonic DVD player/recorder now which outputs component, and it looks pretty good.

Frank
In your situation I would stay with the Panasonic DVD player for now. Try it with progressive mode on and off to see if your TV does a better job going from 480i to 480p than the DVD player.

You can follow the progress of the coming flood of DVD players with DVI output in the DVD Players (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=18) forum.

Others have reported that the Internet feature locks up their system and of course it can't do downloads or streaming. Having an Internet connection built in may be a "marketing" feature. :)

When you see the bad things about RCA....factoring out they put several thousand people out of work when they closed the plant in Bloomington Indiana and sent that work to Mexico....and that we stopped carrying their dvd and vcr players because of repeated failures, and then Thompson was forced to buy back all the integrated Scenium's when rolled out last year....(90 % were bad on the sales floor....)....you then realize why I have only sold one retail in the last 2 years......

I did see the noise bars scrolling on the screen of the RCA that Frank is referring to, as if the tv was having trouble getting sync'd to the input, which also was a HD component feed of Discovery HD Theater.

It was the 61 inch RCA, not the 50. And it was better in this particular circumstance than the 50 inch Samsung DLP which suffered a screaming green neon tint to the extreme, where the RCA had perfect balance on the same picture, and better shadow detail.

That said, I think there might have been an anomoly in the imput source for both the Samsung and RCA, and each handled it differently. As said earlier, the RCA would get the noise line, jitter and scroll, not all the time, but once every minute or so. The Samsung showed some strange multi-path-like interference, diagonal waves, and very bad shadow detail.

Frankly, I've seen the Samsung DLP looking much better, and the RCA already looked good, so I think it's a fair bet both have the potential to be right. The biggest concern about the Sammy, is the consistent prevalence of units exhibiting the green tint, and nagging questions about the purportedly non-adjustable color decoder on DNIe equipped units which if true, would prevent an ISF from having the proper fix for the green tint.

The RCA I know far less about. The one I saw wasn't perfect because of the noisy grainy image, the occasional noise line and rolling jitter, but it certainly had it right on sharpness, brightness, shadow detail, and color balance. (And price too.)

Fbiba...please note I said the "zoom" mode. And also remember I only like it with a true 4:3 digital picture. The "stretch" mode I never use other than to set up for zoom.

If you want to see the most inappropriate use of "stretch", watch ESPN HD. They would be much better off to simply show a very clear 4:3 when HD programming is not available to them.

I was able to vist a Virginia Best Buy - They had the RCA 61" DLP next to a Sony RPTV (about the same screen size). Because of the location I did not realize it was the RCA DLP. But I saw the video noise again and then looking more closely I realized it was the RCA DLP (none of the 30 other RPTVs including the Samsung DLPs displayed this problem). Another thing that I noticed was all the sets were displaying the Direct TV promo channel that looked very good, except the RCA DLP also had a problem with curved objects such as the ESPN logo. It looks as if a curved object in motion became deinterlaced and produced jaggy lines in the curved areas. The Sony next to it did not do this problem and all the other sets I was able to observe also did not have this problem. Maybe I am too picky but this is what I saw.

Paul...

The next time you are in that store use the remote on the RCA and turn the Edge Enhancement Control to low or to off. The default is high, and while it makes HD extremely sharp it tends to make lesser quality input wavy or jaggy.

I keep my setting on "low".

Infocus makes the light engine for the RCA DLP.

"WILSONVILLE, Ore.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 14, 2004--InFocus(R) Corporation (Nasdaq:INFS) today announced that it believes the lawsuit alleging patent infringement filed by 3M Innovative Properties Company and 3M Precision Optics, Inc. (3M) on Jan. 5, 2004, in the United States District Court in Minnesota is without merit.

Earlier this week, the company received a letter from 3M providing notification that the lawsuit had been filed. 3M offered a 60-day reprieve from serving the lawsuit allowing time to attempt to resolve the matter without litigation. The company plans to meet with 3M in an effort to resolve the situation without litigation.

The complaint alleges that the light engine sold by InFocus for use in rear projection televisions infringes United States Patent 5,552,922 owned by 3M. The complaint seeks an injunction to prevent the company from continuing to sell its light engine and unspecified monetary damages.

The company is in the process of evaluating the complaint, and based on its initial analysis InFocus believes it has meritorious defenses to the claims made in the lawsuit."

Originally posted by Langston Wertz in HDTV Hardware (full text in this thread)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=352883

STRONG CONSUMER DEMAND FOR HIGH-DEFINITION
TELEVISION FUELS THOMSON HDTV EXPANSION
PLANS AND 2004 INVESTMENTS
Positive Retailer Reaction to Award-winning Thin, Flat, DLP Projection Technologies
Unveiled at Annual Consumer Electronics Show
Thomson Renews Indianapolis Sponsorship Commitment to RCA Dome

INDIANAPOLIS, January 16, 2004 - With demand for high-definition television expected to drive more than five million consumers into stores this year to buy HDTV products, Thomson (Euronext Paris: 18453) (NYSE: TMS) has stepped up its investment plans for space-saving, rear-projection Digital Light Processing (DLP ) HDTV with the coming 2004 introduction of RCA Scenium Profiles HDTV - the ultra-thin projection television that is less than seven inches "thin." Thomson has invested more than $25 million to deliver DLP HDTV to the market, with an additional $35 million investment planned to accelerate new product introductions in the Americas and in Europe this year.

OldPirate i would like to discuss your RCA DLP and would appreciate if you would tell me what it looks like compared to the Samsung DLP. Im waiting on my 61"RCA from Best Buy. I know that the DVI wont accept 720p but i got a new 480p game im thinking that game will look just as good as if it was 720p after the tv upgrades it to the native resolution, but what if i got a game thats 720p would i still be able to play it by lowering the output of the xbox? Tell me how the picture looks on this tv. I have seen the Samsung and its totally awesome and have heard in this forum that the RCA looks better. This is kinda hard to believe but hope its true. Tell me your take.

Thanks

Originally posted by minime9us
OldPirate i would like to discuss your RCA DLP and would appreciate if you would tell me what it looks like compared to the Samsung DLP. Im waiting on my 61"RCA from Best Buy.
Thanks

I'm not OldPirate, but I got the BB 61" Sunday. I think you will be well pleased. Great PQ on OTA HD, better than my older Hitach RPTV for analog, no DVI source to test that part.

My only complaint turned out to be null. I kept thinking the picture wasn't centered vertically, and the adjustment didn't work, but it was the color of the bezel that fooled me. The 1.5" black bar at the bottom was the bezel. Dumb me.

The format options for 4:3 source are disappointing in only offering normal, horiz stretch (uniformly), and zoom (cropping top & bottom). But IIRC, the Sammy DLPs have only those choices too. Some non-DLP sets have more options.

All in all, for $3350 net vs $5000, and tuner included, I like this set. But note that the BB set has only 1 year warr, vs 2 years for Scenium.

Grittree

How would you compare the RCA that you have to the Samsung DLP at Best Buy? Ive heard some say it looks as good or better. I am expecting my 61" to arrive in a week from BB. I thought that the 50" Sammy looked awesome but i have never seen an RCA DLP, I just could not deny myself the chance to at least compare a 61" inch before i chose a smaller screen for the same amount of money. By the way i purchased the 4 year extended warranty with BB for the tv for $250.00. You might want to go back and check on that. It replaces the tv for 4 years if anything goes wrong with it that they cant fix. But If I get it and find out that the Picture Quality is not as good as the Sammy im going to go and exchange it the same day. I hate not knowing the PQ difference. The BB has 2 50" Sammies in stock right now and if the PQ is noticeably different i can go get the set tonight. But waiting on the 61" I may loose the 50" and have to wait. The only thing standing between me and having the 50" Sammy tonight is not knowing the PQ difference so someone please help me. I prefer RCA owners due to a significant level of dislike for the RCA by everyone who owns a Sammy mostly for what seems like anger because of the 720p DVI situation. Personally i believe that most of the RCA haters would have the RCA if they had made the DVI accept 720p. I remember all of them earlier saying that they liked it and it was the one and all of a sudden that 720p issue came up and then all of a sudden those same people began saying negative things about PQ. They have issues with Thomson for cost cutting. But the way i see it if PQ doesnt suffer, the savings were passed on to me in paying 1500 less than the Sammy 61 inch.
PQ is all im concerned with im not mad at RCA they have made this thing affordable for many of us including me. I would not be in the market for a 61" period if i had to pay the 5400 dollars for the Sammy. I can however loose the 11" of tv if the PQ is that much better. Please let me know. I apologize for the long post.

I own the Sammy HLM507W, (early adopter 2002), and I have seen the Sammy side by side with 61 inch RCA DLP at BB, and I don't have an ax to grind against RCA.

The RCA I saw was better by most every measure than that particular Sammy, at least.

- It had accurate, vivid, bright colors, the Sammy a horrid dark green tint that is something recent, and a definite worry.

- The RCA had better shadow detail.

- The RCA did have a problem with a grainy, speckled image, and further, suffered jitter and roll, or an apparent difficulty sync'ing to the store feed, (component - high definition)

I tried tweaking on the Sammy user menu, because I know how...the RCA didn't need much. No matter, the Sammy just appeared dark and green by comparison, although on bright scenes, you might find no fault with it.

Just my $0.02

Thanks Tom, any others? I wish i could get a pm going with an owner. By the way Tom could you explain grainy? I saw a Gateway 56" the other day and saw graininess everywhere, and it was awful just due to what i term grainy. The stuff i called grain affected the color and sharpness so how could grainy in your terms look good. Maybe i call what i saw grainy and thats something else. Im trying to figure out what level or how does grainy look. I did not know a grainy picture could display good colors. But graininess is the only bad thing ive heard about the 61 RCA PQ, so im trying to figure out just what this graininess looks like. Is there any way i can see graininess to tell if its unacceptable to me. Like a picture you can email me or something thats grainy?

Originally posted by Tom Roper
I tried tweaking on the Sammy user menu, because I know how...the RCA didn't need much. No matter, the Sammy just appeared dark and green by comparison, although on bright scenes, you might find no fault with it.

I think on your "vintage" Samsung it's very easy to turn off "black enhancement". The HLN sets require a more complex SM treatment. I think it's dumb of Samsung to not provide a User Option to turn it off. That's how I got rid of the "green" on the HLM507 that I had for a short while.

I can't remember. Did you ever get onto the DVI/720p bandwagon?

Grainy, as in film like grain, speckled, sparkly glittering glints of video noise, colored snow. This is the one area where the Sammy had the RCA that I saw beat, much smoother texture, particularly noticeable on flesh tones and skin. But the RCA 61 inch is a bigger picture, magnifying the image and apparent grain. The Sammy is very good at producing a smooth texture, at least compared to the RCA. The RCA had the better (by far) colors and detail in the shadows.

HT, Did I ever get onto the DVI/720p bandwagon? I'm not sure what you mean. I've always been connected via DVI at 720p through a Sony HD200 DirecTV hi-def satellite receiver.

I don't think my particular vintage set (there's a hand crank on the front, and you shoot ether into the carburetor on cold mornings) was ever that bad on greens, but yes, I have always had black expansion turned off, BKAKOU, BLIM, BSTPO=0, gamma=0, and other tweaks, grayscale etc. But the adjustments that are most effective at directly dialing the color decoder are RYAXIS and BYGAIN. And the major shame of the new Sammys in my opinion, is that they added edge enhancement and DNIe, features some say are not needed, but took away the adjustable color decoder, which you DO. I would not belabor that point if Samsung had the colors right, but it's apparent to me and others with the strong green tint they DON'T have it right. In fact, tint is not even adjustable from the user menu on DVI input, but I would argue it IS needed since you can't adjust the color decoder if the colors are wrong. BIG MISTAKE... my $0.02 Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

I think the RCA not accepting 720p is HUGE, and would speculate it has something to do with the grain, although the source I saw inputted to it was 1080i. In spite of it, it looked impressively good, certainly they did more things right than wrong, especially factoring in connectivity and price. Perfect? No.

One more question and im done if you dont mind. There is the movie Finding Nemo. It has stunning colors but the scenes underwater are magnificent. On my regular non hdtv with a non progressive scanner the PQ is clear and the fish gleam. I took the dvd to gateway and put it on their 56 Gateway DLP which is connected thru the av port (red, white, yellow) saw this graininess and it made the colors look bad and everything else. I left the store and took the same disk to BB and played it on a 50" Sammy connected to the 931dvidvd but connected thru same av port and it looked much improved clean and crisp fish. Now in your opinion with what you saw in color quality in RCA and crispness in Samsung, which tv set would you prefer to watch Finding Nemo on? and this is all. Your answer may determine whether i go get the 50" Samsung tomorrow or wait another week for the 61" RCA

Thanks

I went back to Gateway today cause i just could not believe how bad it looked and me and the salesman played with the remote. With my very very limited knowledge i got my dvd of Twin Towers to look pretty darn good. As a matter of fact he said he had never seen it look that good. I was almost ready to buy, but the only reason i didnt was something i could not fix. You know how DLP's are very bright, well this one wasnt it looked great but was dark like a CRT, and the viewing angle was only 80 degrees not 160 degrees like RCA and Samsung. That was weird. How could this DLP not project light and brighten the screen. I thought that was inherent to all DLP tv's

Originally posted by Tom Roper
HT, Did I ever get onto the DVI/720p bandwagon? I'm not sure what you mean. I've always been connected via DVI at 720p through a Sony HD200 DirecTV hi-def satellite receiver.

That's what I was asking. :)


And the major shame of the new Sammys in my opinion, is that they added edge enhancement and DNIe, features some say are not needed, but took away the adjustable color decoder, which you DO.


I agree. We have an 50" OPTOMA DLP in a store here that really looks great and has outstanding user controls. Unfortunately it's too expensive for me.

I think the RCA not accepting 720p is HUGE, and would speculate it has something to do with the grain, although the source I saw inputted to it was 1080i.

Was that 1080i going in component or DVI? I've wondered how the RCA would look with 1080i through DVI but BB and Fry's are our only dealers and they don't seem to have a clue about DVI. In fact I'm sure they feed the Samsung sets 1080i through component too.

I probably should have kept the HLM507 demo I had last January. That shows you where big screen greed can lead you. :rolleyes:

Minime, usually the animated productions look great on anything. I find it hard to make judgments with them.

In any case, I would advise you this way:

1.) Don't worry about the possibility of the Samsungs going out of stock. It only adds haste to your important decision.

2.) Use your OWN eyes, and let them be the judge. As you have already found with AV connections, there are too many variables.

3.) You know what to look for, grain on RCA, tint and shadow detail on Samsung.

4.) Be also alert for the rolling/jitter on the RCA. Hopefully what I saw was not characteristic.

5.) If you connect with high quality sources, DVI/component, the green tint issue for the Sammy is not likely to get too far out of hand, but I would not make judgments about RCA or Sammy based on composite, A/V.

You've pinned me down...which way would I go? I don't know. I'll just tell you how I felt after I made the comparison at Best Buy.

I came away impressed with the RCA, and for a while contemplated putting the Sammy on Ebay. After a while of viewing my own set, I realized the colors on my own tweaked Sammy were as good as the RCA, if not the shadow detail. But I also have 4000 hours on the lamp. After I replaced the bulb, it jumped to life with renewed brightness, and I would judge it to be a little better probably than the RCA in most regards. But I've had 14 months to get it right. Out of the box, the RCA at Best Buy was better. Within 48 hours, I decided I was happy with the Samsung. So to say it didn't cross my mind is not true, but to show disrespect for the RCA would be unfair. It more than accounts for itself.

My advice is to see them both. That said, I feel the Samsung is a known quantity, the RCA quite a bit more uncertain, possibly better, but watch for the scrolling/jitter, and grain. If I had to buy one tomorrow, the Samsung is a safe bet. But I think the RCA is worth a look. Finding Nemo can/will look great on the Sammy for sure, and probably also the RCA. I'm less certain HOW it would look on the RCA, because I've only seen ONE, and there's always some doubt about how representative that unit was. I've seen lots of Sammys, and for the most part, they always looked good, save for the "greenies" I saw at BB recently....ugh... :(

Originally posted by minime9us
There is the movie Finding Nemo. It has stunning colors but the scenes underwater are magnificent. On my regular non hdtv with a non progressive scanner the PQ is clear and the fish gleam.

"Finding Nemo" is a fine kettle of fish.;) There seem to be some problems with the DVD that some setups show better than others. Click here.

image problem with Finding Nemo (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3126264#post3126264)

It's enough to drive me crazy.

I've used "Finding Nemo" to check for color banding on several sets. I haven't had a chance to check either a Samsung or a RCA DLP yet.

There can be "banding" in the opening scenes where you can see out into the water behind the fish when they come out to admire their new neighborhood. There should be shafts of sun light through the water. One LCD RPTV had such bad banding of the blue water that it broke up the shafts of sun light.

Another scene where the LCD set had a lot of trouble is when Bruce is taking them to the meeting. The dark "mine field" was pretty bad.

The last trouble spot that I've used is when they swim down into the abyss and see the light. The LCD (LG) set had banding around the light.

The same set did better with a very expensive Meridian system connected to it. I don't know how they had it configured.

I agree. We have an 50" OPTOMA DLP in a store here that really looks great and has outstanding user controls. Unfortunately it's too expensive for me.

I've not seen it. I can imagine it's incredible. But speaking of user controls, if you get a chance to play in the user menu of the hyper-expensive (for the size) Sharp Aquos 37" panel LCD, THAT'S the way a user menu should be. You can adjust all three primary colors, instead of just the basic "hue." It's an incredibly sharp (no pun intended), and vivid image. Smallish, yes...but crisp and high contrast, and BRIGHT! Best looking black level of any LCD I've seen, but that's where one has to be *really* careful when viewing in a bright showroom. These tvs excel, but it's in the DARK where the black level needs to be evaluated for the dreaded blue background tint most LCDs are famous for.

Originally posted by Tom Roper
But speaking of user controls, if you get a chance to play in the user menu of the hyper-expensive (for the size) Sharp Aquos 37" panel LCD, THAT'S the way a user menu should be. You can adjust all three primary colors, instead of just the basic "hue."


I think the OPTOMA may have similar controls.


It's an incredibly sharp (no pun intended), and vivid image. Smallish, yes...but crisp and high contrast, and BRIGHT! Best looking black level of any LCD I've seen, ...
It sounds like just what a fat old retired programmer needs in his home AVS Forum office. :cool:

Just the right size.

If the Sammy had a user menu like the Sharp (or the Optoma), I would probably never found the need to venture into the service menu.

Originally posted by Tom Roper
If the Sammy had a user menu like the Sharp (or the Optoma), I would probably never found the need to venture into the service menu.
Too true, but I'll bet you would have anyway.

The OPTOMA has one other little problem for me. My wife doesn't like top heavy TV sets and it does have a fairly large base that's not nearly as wide as the screen. Because of the extra cost, and lack of HDCP I haven't tried to brain wash her yet. :rolleyes:

Too true, but I'll bet you would have anyway.

Grin..;)

I'll tell you what im gonna do. Im gonna wait for the 61" RCA but im gonna buy the Samsung DVI dvd player to go with it. I will let you know how the picture looks after all the converting goes on. It will help answer the big question of whether the tv looses pq during the conversion, but first will that dvd player allow a choice of output so that i can opt to send 1080i or whatever to the tv because if it only outputs 720p then it will be no good and i wont be able to test it.

Besides...you've ht"waited" long enough. Tell her you deserve, no demand a 60 inch plasma :)

What is meant by shadow? and i saw little specks around certain things on the screen that kind of outlined them. What is that called? In Nemo there was this little grain around the outline of the fish but no where else. Is that grain, shadow, ghosting? and is there a way to get rid of it. And that Gateway was darker than the DLP's ive seen i wonder if that was because the bulb is old. I thought that DLP's werent supposed to degrade in quality over time. I just thought one day the light went out but not slowly get dimmer. I wish i knew if that what was wrong with the 56 Gateway. I might have gotten it. I was just afraid that the less than bright screen was designed that way. That was probably the biggest thing that catches my eye when i see DLP, the beautiful colors and bright screen that magnifies the color detail.

I think the 931 does both 720p and 1080i. But there too, I'd look at the Denons. I think they have models with DVI now, and the right DVD player deserves nearly as much consideration as the tv.

Secrets (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all)

The lamps will dim over time. I have 4000 hours on mine. As I mentioned, I put in a new one (primarily to test it 'cause you only have 30 days to return it if it's bad). After I tested, I put the old one back in. Not as bright, but still watchable.

If they are jaggies around the outline/edges of the fish, could be one of several anomolies:

1.) combing
2.) chroma upsampling error
3.) reverse 2:3 pulldown

Get educated on that link I posted. DVD players are not the same, but very important with big screen sizes.

Originally posted by minime9us
Grittree

How would you compare the RCA that you have to the Samsung DLP at Best Buy? Ive heard some say it looks as good or better. I am expecting my 61" to arrive in a week from BB.

I bought it sight unseen. But I would not weigh that heavily anyway. I have seen the identical N56" Sammy in two stores and they looked very different. At my BB, most of the big RPTVs looked crappy.

For me the DVI is a non-issue. I have an el-cheapo Sony 25S DVD player hooked up with $0.79 AV cables to the component ports and I can't imagine getting a better picture that I see now.

Originally posted by Tom Roper
Besides...you've ht"waited" long enough. Tell her you deserve, no demand a 60 inch plasma :)
I may "deserve" a 60" plasma but I can't deal with the cost of a 50" plasma. :rolleyes:

Minime...

I've had my 50 inch RCA DLP Scenium since early December and am very happy with it.

I have an antenna for local PBS HD, Cox Cable hooked through component for everything else and a progressive scan DVD hooked through another component input.

The picture quality I have no complaints about whatsoever. I haven't used and don't intend to use the web browser so I can't speak to that.

We run ours with the bulb set in the "extended life" mode and its still really bright.

Programs shot with HD cameras and broadcast in full HD are stunning. Regular digital is truly clear and so is the DVD picture. Analog is the worst picture, but isn't it always? I see no real difference between OTA HD and HD signals through the cable albeit the closest digital tower to me is over 26 miles.

I watch most things with a personal setting of 85, 43, 61,37,40. These are the settings for contrast, color, black seting, etc. I forget the exact name order but I have memorized the number sequence.

I have found that turning "edge enhancement" to low keeps analog quality from excessive video noise or waving. Turning it back to high makes HD exceptionally sharp. Even though my cable box has a DVI output it is not yet working. First they said, January, then March, now they say 4th quarter 2004.

As far as the TV is concerned....I have had zero problems and am very happy with the PQ. I refuse to enter into a Samsung versus RCA or Gateway DLP discussion where someone tries to say one is better than the others. Each produces a good picture I would think for each company has too much to lose for consistently bad PQ.

As long as the TV I own or you own does what we want, it could say Philco on it for all I care.

Old Pirate Im with you on that Philco thing. I only have a question now that might never get answered, and thats the difference in quality if any that a person running 720p thru a dvi from a dvd player and the quality the same dvd player would have in an RCA inputing it at 1080i might see. I've heard all this great stuff about the Samsung owners jaw dropping with this hookup. But i have had no RCA owners say anything about hooking up a dvi dvd player to their tv's. I wonder if theres a big difference. And if it comes down to it i will be the person to make that post after i do it. Im hoping one of you owners will try it and give feedback. Its not like you cant return the dvd player if you dont like it but at least you will know. At least thats how i feel. My thoughts on it are this. If im gonna pay 4000 for a tv, then i am gonna find out how to maximize the quality otherwise i would just get a much cheaper CRT and get that same quality for 1/3 the money. So then, If no one with RCA volunteers to test this out, I will be the guinea pig and let you guys know. Oh and by the way, I called TVAuthority yesterday and talked to one of their sales ladies and also a tech who told me that they are split 50/50 on which one looks the best. But they are so close that its hard to tell which one has the better PQ.

Originally posted by minime9us
But i have had no RCA owners say anything about hooking up a dvi dvd player to their tv's.
The reason might be that a RCA owner is more likely to buy a DVD player known for the great job it does in progressive mode and converting digital to analog. If I owned a RCA DLP that's what I would try to do.

The Samsung HD-931 does the 480i to 480p conversion with the Faroudja chip so that should be very good. I don't know how good it is converting digital to analog for component output or what chip does that.

When the HD-931 is used to output 720p I think it uses the Faroudja chip to go from 480i to 480p and then it just scales the 480p to 720p and outputs it to the Samsung DLP.

When you ask it to output 1080i it's using a different sequence and may introduce more errors into the image as a result. That might make the RCA look worse than it should. Maybe RCA will build a DVD player that's very good at 480i to 1080i in digital for DVI output. Such a DVD player might work well with other sets too. That combo would be good to compare against the HD-931 or Bravo outputting 720p to a Samsung DLP.

What's needed is a video lab with a big budget. :)

The reason might be that a RCA owner is more likely to buy a DVD player known for the great job it does in progressive mode and converting digital to analog. If I owned a RCA DLP that's what I would try to do.

I hear you say that there is an analog step in the RCA conversion. I dont know much so im gonna ask. Which of the following is analog? 480i, 480p, or 1081i? If its the 1080i then why would quality suffer? As ive heard from many 1080i is jaw dropping quality. So if its taking in 1080i from DVI and converting down to 720p then it would seem that the quality of the resulting image would not be too different than the Samsung that didnt convert to 1080i first. Now if 1080i is not the analog signal you are speaking about when you mention the analog step, then what is? This might sound crazy, but if youre worried about an analog stage being involved then use the one that not analog thru the dvi input to the tv. Unless youre saying that all three are analog and the only digital signal is 720p. I hope you understand what im asking, my limited knowledge or understanding on the subject limits how i ask the question.

Originally posted by minime9us
I hear you say that there is an analog step in the RCA conversion. I dont know much so im gonna ask. Which of the following is analog? 480i, 480p, or 1081i?
None of them. :)

The resolution (480i/480p/1080i/720p) is independent of whether the information is analog or digital.

Any signal that passes through component outputs must be converted to analog first no matter who's TV is on the other end. Any signal that passes through DVI must be digital. People with Samsung and other DLP sets like DVI because it's digital all the way to the screen.

When information is read from a DVD it start out with a resolution of 480i and is stored as digital information. That information must be converted to analog if you are sending it to any TV using component ports.

If you use the DVI port on the Samsung HD-931 you can do the complete conversion from 480i to 720p in digital and send it to a Samsung DLP TV where it will be displayed without further conversion. There is no analog step. If you send the 480p or 1080i resolution signal to the Samsung DLP TV it will have to convert them to 720p before they are displayed but all that will be done in digital.

You can use the HD-931 to convert the DVD signal to 480p or 1080i but not 720p before you send it to the RCA TV using DVI. When the digital signal arrives at the RCA TV it is converted to analog. The RCA will then convert the resolution to 720p in analog before the signal is converted back to digital for display. Thats the extra analog step.

Everything I've just tried to explain comes from what I have read here. I hope I haven't added too many errors of fact or understanding.

It all boils down to the fact that I wouldn't pair up the HD-931 with a RCA DLP TV if it was my TV. I would look for a good DVD player in the same price range that does outstanding component(analog) output. Why send the RCA DLP sets a digital signal if it will be converted to analog anyway?

Latest in my RCA DLP 50":

To hgoodman:

I looked at the service menu, and I did NOT try calibration. I saw settings for VERY complex procedures either requiring physical alignment of the light engine, requirements for oscilloscopes, Fluke VOM's for potentiometer setting changes, viewing waveforms, etc. The only "alignment" I saw was for horizontal and screen alignment. There was a setting for "red, green, and blue color bias" but I did not touch that. Any other alignment changes were most likely centering alignment changes for user settings. So read "not much use for even most field technicians." (!). There was a menu for displaying error codes, but I could find nothing for interpreting these codes; they are in hex. I saw SIX error codes from the eeprom on my set! I could not find any database on these error codes on the CD. So you can correctly surmise that I got out of the service screen in a hurry without touching any of the settings. Incidentally there are only six primitive test patterns that can be accessed. The DVE and AVID patterns are MUCH better and more extensive.

For Old Pirate:

My bad. I thought that you were using the ridiculous "stretch mode" not the "zoom" mode. I don't like the zoom mode either. Even with "letterbox" productions, this mode cuts off the bottom and the top of the picture.

Now, I have been having a problem with the set spontaneously turning off. It has happened four times. After I told the manager of Conn's Electronics (my dealer) that I wanted an immediate replacement of the set (less than 30 days old), he dispatched a technician out to the house. All he had with him was a small bag and a sidekick trainee. I told him about my inability to use the 1394 port with my camera or VTR, and the shutdown problem, and the error codes, he said he would "make a phone call and get back to me the next day," he never opened his bag, and he and his sidekick left, and I waited for his phone call for four days. It was a nice social visit though. Four days later I called the dealer, and was able to contact the supposed service manager in this area. The next day he called and said that he had "rush ordered two parts" to "repair" the TV set! He had no clue about the error codes..

I told him that I thought the problem was either with the light fan (I read this in the troubleshooting part of the service CD) or possibly with a voltage regulator in the power supply. I am not sure he knows what a voltage regulator is! Our power line voltage here in the swamps of Louisiana is very unstable.. I replace light bulbs with great regularity her. However, a good voltage regulator in a good power supply should be able to handle that.

Neither the service man (or his sidekick) nor the service manager has the Thomson service CD. It is "on order." Go figure. I asked the service man if he does any other TV brand service, and he said that he does all the TV's that Conn's carries.... that's a big order for someone who has questionable knowledge about voltage regulators...

Actually, I *really*don't*think*that*there*is*anything*wrong*with this TV. If my TV were a Samsung DLP, and I needed assistance, I am sure that the same clown (and sidekick) would have come out to service it.

I would bet the farm that the two "parts" for replacement are going to be the cooling fans (there are two) and a power supply. That was easy to deduce by just reading the troubleshooting section of the service CD.

I asked him if he would do an alignment procedure for the TV. He said "oh, you can do that." I said is there not available full factory alignment procedures that can be done? He said, "Yes, you can hire someone, but that costs a lot of money." (Choke).

Finally a postscript on the picture. I have the AVID and DVE disks. I use a Panasonic DVD writer/player that outputs 480p to the RCA. The picture, although NOT HD is astounding! The picture is fairly close to HD. So it looks that just by going from 480i to 480p really puts out a great picture! Can somebody explain how the picture could be so good with the DVE disk?? I even may call DVE to try to find out.

For Htwaits:

You are right on the money (no pun) about holding off on DVD players with DVI output. Fortunately the ones I saw DO have the option for setting the DVI output to either 720p or 1080i (good for the RCA), but I shall take your advice and wait to see what shakes out regarding new player/recorders.

I did color alignment and tested the sharpness, horiz and vert alignment, etc with the DVE disk, and the settings were almost identical to those that had been set at the factory.

I hope I haven't put anybody to sleep with this long post. Perhaps there is some useful information in it.

Frank

Originally posted by fbiba
Latest in my RCA DLP 50":
For Htwaits:

You are right on the money (no pun) about holding off on DVD players with DVI output. Fortunately the ones I saw DO have the option for setting the DVI output to either 720p or 1080i (good for the RCA)
Frank
I don't know if a 1080i digital DVI output to the RCA would be better than a very good progressive component output. No one that I recall reading has been bragging about their 1080i digital output from either the HD-931 or the Bravo D1.

If I had your service center to work with I would probably want to do exchanges until the cows came home. :)

You can use the HD-931 to convert the DVD signal to 480p or 1080i but not 720p before you send it to the RCA TV using DVI. When the digital signal arrives at the RCA TV it is converted to analog. The RCA will then convert the resolution to 720p in analog before the signal is converted back to digital for display. Thats the extra analog step.

I am still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that the RCA has to include an analog conversion first. I understand that the tv wont accept 720p, but it will accept 1080i, so if i used a dvi dvd player and set it to output at 1080i to the RCA it is accepted by the RCA and then is converted to 720p. Just becasue it wont accept 720p doesnt sound like that it would have to include an analog step. If a Samsung can do 1080i to 720p all digital they what makes you think that the RCA cant do it? Is there some material that says that. I did understand that the extra step to go from 1080i back to 720p was unnecessary but what makes you think that would have to include an analog step.

Originally posted by minime9us
I am still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that the RCA has to include an analog conversion first. I understand that the tv wont accept 720p, but it will accept 1080i, so if i used a dvi dvd player and set it to output at 1080i to the RCA it is accepted by the RCA and then is converted to 720p. Just becasue it wont accept 720p doesnt sound like that it would have to include an analog step. If a Samsung can do 1080i to 720p all digital they what makes you think that the RCA cant do it? Is there some material that says that. I did understand that the extra step to go from 1080i back to 720p was unnecessary but what makes you think that would have to include an analog step.

The extra analog conversion is a theory. If you read this entire thread you'll find the history behind it. There seems to be quite a bit of proof that the RCA does introduce an analog conversion for all inputs, but probably not the internal tuner. The Samsung doesn't convert things to analog because the Samsung DLP's are a clean design. The RCA's have inherited the electronics from RCA's CRT displays as a cost saving measure.

Originally posted by Andrew67
The extra analog conversion is a theory.
Right.

My theory went like this.

Before DVI, RCA CRT RPTV sets didn't accept 720p. As far as I know they still don't. They accepted analog input and displayed analog output.

If you are RCA and you are looking to reuse those CRT RPTV circuits in the new RCA DLP sets then you need an interface that feeds them what they expect -- analog.

On the other side of the same circuits you need to change back to digital in order to use the DLP display chip. You need to do that for component anyway so you just route the DVI input through the same path.

Since component is an analog interface to begin with this issue only applies to the DVI interface. The only exception being that RCA didn't upgrade their component inputs to accept 720p just like Samsung didn't engineer their component inputs to accept 480i, 480p, 1080i, and 720p through the same input.

All I can say for sure is that most Samsung owners like their DVD input best using 720p through DVI. A RCA owner may have a better alternative for the RCA DLP design.

Samsung has published circuit diagrams in their Service Manual that AVS members who are engineers are able to read. That's how folks here know that the Samsung DVI path is all digital.

I haven't read about a RCA DLP owner finding the same circuit diagrams showing the RCA processing in their DLP sets. All manufacturers don't publish that type of diagram.

I'm not an engineer but I was a software developer for many years. My theory is similar to what I would do if I wanted to reuse existing code but needed a new interface on the input and output side of that older code.

The picture quality you get with an RCA DLP set should satisfy a lot of people. Others just point out that they don't think the RCA design will take full advantage of the DLP chip.

My explanation tank is about empty. :)

I have not visited this thread for a while. I thought I would return with some news about my 50" RCA. Unfortunately, this is not good news. While I was on the couch for a week with the flu, I had a chance to put a lot of hours on the set.
I have had to reset the television once or twice a week since I have owned this new DLP.
The TV will show "unusable signal" on both tuners and inputs. Pulling the plug for 10 seconds corrects this. Just using the power button does nothing but waste your time.
The Guide + will disappear completely from the menu. I do like the guide when it works. The reset takes a day for the TV to gather the info again.
There is a poor audio output section. I had to add a decoupling transformer to the audio outputs to get rid of a nasty hum. My Old pioneer Elite had none of these problems.
The DV10 is only usable for playback right now. The recording portion of the unit does not function and causes problems with the television tuner.
The keyboard FAV keys will cause the television to lock up completely. You have to pull the plug on the set while the bulb is full ON. I am sure this is not good for the life expectancy of the bulb because of the loss of the stages voltage decrease and cool down period with the fans.

Now this is only my advice. Take it or leave it. Buy another set. Run away from the RCA.

Originally posted by htwaits
I don't know if a 1080i digital DVI output to the RCA would be better than a very good progressive component output. No one that I recall reading has been bragging about their 1080i digital output from either the HD-931 or the Bravo D1.

If I had your service center to work with I would probably want to do exchanges until the cows came home. :)

Htwaits:

From what I read here, there is no option for progressive output to the RCA other 480p via component. I had thought that the RCA would accept 720p via COMPONENT, but from what I read here, the RCA will not accept 720p even if it were shot through the screen by a bullet! So that leaves me only 480i, 480p, and 1080i from a DVD player to the RCA. I have to assume that if I could get 720p to the RCA it would be better than 480p, and theorectically 1080i would be better than 480p.

The cows are all out of the barn, Conn's will NOT exchange the TV "unless they cannot fix it" and an exchange is not really in my best interest at the moment. This policy does not match the standard policy of "return in 30 days, especially if defective." Caveat emptor.

I will play along for a little while, but IF there really is a problem with the set, and IF have have to go through exchanges "until the cows come home" I will turn into an alligator and chomp down on Conn's.

Frank

Well I dont have the tv yet, hopefully Monday but the good thing about it is that BB gives me 30 days in which to give it back at no charge. So i have to wait and see what it looks like. HTWAITS thanks for all that info now i think i understand better, now what I need is some of those proud RCA DLP owners to give me some feedback on how great the RCA is. I am starting to feel like id better wait. The 50" Sammy is a little too small for me. I could have picked up one last week and the size was the determining factor. I felt like i was giving up too much in that 11" inch difference. I wish someone here had a 61 inch Sammy, Id probably cancel my order right now. I can say though im up and down every day. Im down right now on the RCA after reading the htwait post, but maybe by tomorrow i will hear an RCA positive that brings me back up on this thing.

Originally posted by minime9us
I can say though im up and down every day. Im down right now on the RCA after reading the htwait post, but maybe by tomorrow i will hear an RCA positive that brings me back up on this thing.
I'm up and down too. That's one of the reasons why I have waited so long. Good luck with your new set.

"I wish someone here had a 61 inch Sammy,"

Do you have a Circuit City near you, they sell the 61" Sammy. If they don't have one one display they can order one for you and they also have a 30 day money back policy.

On another note I was in Best Buy the other day and I turned down the video enhancement to low as suggested it helped but their was still some jaggy lines that was not visible on any other sets on display. It's almost as it the video processor cannot keep up with the signal.

A bit later I saw this guy looking at the Samsung DLPs and he was talking to the salesman about it. I also started to talk to him telling him I owned the 61" Sammy. I showed him the RCA since he could get a bigger set at less money (I swear I did not make any comment to him about my impression of the RCA DLP picture) and he immediately stated he did not like the picture quality because of the video noise.

i talked to a guy at a store today that said that he had sold both the 61inch RCA and 61inch Samsung. I told him that i was unsure which one to order mainly due to the 720p issue with the RCA. I asked his opinion on the PQ comparison between the two. He told me that their tech dept is split 50/50 on which has better PQ and its so close that realistically its up in the air. Then I asked him if he tried hooking up the Samsung DVD player to it and compared the results to that of the Samsung 61 inch. Surprisingly he said that he had done that and almost no difference. I asked him if he could do it again just to be sure. He said he would and I will find out the results tomorrow. He told me though, from what he could remember, he ran the Samsung DVD thru the DVI to the RCA outputting 1080i to the tv and the PQ was equal to the PQ he saw when he ran the Samsung DVD thru the Samsung DLP tv thru the DVI at 720p. I know that RCA people are not coming forward to inform of their experiences in this endeavor but it may be that they are happy with their product and that alone is the justification they need. To be honest, if I were already an owner of the RCA Scenium and liked the set, the only reason i would come here is to fulfill my comittment to explain how i feel about it. In all honesty I feel that those who have chosen the RCA DLP have heard enough negative about their sets that they dont actually see,that they have chosen not to continue taking insults to their set so they stopped coming here. I know that if i really like my RCA when I get it, based on whats said here I will not come back. The reason being: This thread sometimes gets carried away with comments like the Samsung monkey stomps the RCA etc, that is not a sound judgement and someone with an RCA with something either negative or positive to share with other members now may feel that the set that they love so much is being attacked and even more than that their judgement in paying 4000 dollars for a tv that they love so much is a terrible choice to everyone. We loose that valuable feedback, and its not the intent of this forum at least i dont think it is. I would think the intent is to respect each others likes and dislikes and feed on the knowledge of those who have taken the steps to purchase these expensive sets in order to find out which one meets our needs and not so much to downgrade someones purchase choice. I wish that all those who have all makes of DLPs would come and give their opinions once they got the thing home. I have seen Samsung in the store and loved it, I have seen Gateway in the store and wanted to like it but it was terrible, I have not seen RCA but have one on order. I said all that to say this. We should not discount anything of these sets even if we own one they all have positives and negatives, even the RCA deserves consideration. This way we all benefit from knowledge instead of competition.

Sorry to talk so long

Originally posted by minime9us
iTo be honest, if I were already an owner of the RCA Scenium and liked the set, the only reason i would come here is to fulfill my comittment to explain how i feel about it. In all honesty I feel that those who have chosen the RCA DLP have heard enough negative about their sets that they dont actually see,that they have chosen not to continue taking insults to their set so they stopped coming here.

To be fair, each and every set is criticized equally on this forum. I own a Samsung DLP and that thing is ripped apart in countless threads. Same can be said of the Sony GWIII. The best thing about this forum is to read the criticism, both positive and negative. I was able to make a better purchase knowing the strengths and weaknesses of my set. There were no suprises and that continues to this day, 6 months after the purchase.

On a final note... this forum, like any other, requires a great deal of reading to separate the wheat from the chaff. Read it all and find those whose opinions you value and trust.

To Htwaits:

My RCA must have gotten scared when the "technician" (I use the term loosely) showed up to see about the set spontaneously shutting down. The RCA has behaved itself ever since, no shutdowns. I still could never decipher the error codes.

Incidentally, many years ago I bought a big screen Mitsubishi, considered to be the best (and most expensive) set for its time. It crapped out after about six months, a technician showed up, and looked at a tattered piece of paper that had some instructions on it that he had brought with him. He reached into a lunch box (I kid you not), pulled out wire clippers, a beat up soldering gun, and made a quick change of a couple of capacitors and resistors. The set is still working after nearly 15 years! Low tech.....

Minime9us:

I like your attitude and your comments about the RCA experience. I have tried to report my experience with my RCA 50" DLP especially in comparison to the Samsungs, and my conclusion was the only thing I regret is that I cannot have BOTH the Samsung and the RCA. I believe that the only way for one to decide, besides checking the forums for PROBLEMS with the TV's is to go look at the sets personally. Every TV in the stores, in my opinion, looks a little different in picture quality, and God knows how these sets have been setup initially or where the sets are located in the stores (such as sunlight and other distractions).

I hold no faith in those who would say "The Samsung/RCA (or whatever brand) is junk. Run away from it." One clown even knocked the RCA, and he had never seen it! He complained about the dealer return policy even though he had no idea what the return policy was! Gimme a break.

Now for my latest evaluation: I finally completed a Dish Network installation yesterday (after SIX cancellations due to equipment not being available). The wait was worth it.

One of my receivers is the 811. I set the output for 1080i, hooked it up to the RCA, and held my breath. I have been using the standard of comparison the HD OTA channel for PBS which is equal to the best I have seen of all the HD pictures at home and in the stores. I am aware of the concerns with the conversions from 1080i to get to 720p (RCA) versus native 720 digital coming out of the Samsung.

I have tried to compare the picture between two different inputs to the SAME TV set, 1080i DVI (going through an analog stage, correct me if I am wrong) versus 1080i via OTA (digital all the way, correct me again if I am wrong). My own conclusion (subjective of course) is as follows:

Picture quality, OTA 1080i vs. 1080i DVI is identical, the best I have seen. The quality compares very favorably with the Samsungs. There is minimal grain, surprising much LESS pixelization in comparison to my old DirecTV experience. This surprises me as both Dish and DTV use mpeg II. The picture is crystal clear, the colors are stunning, and the audio is excellent. I can breath easier now; I was concerned with the comments about 1080i DVI to the RCA versus 720p on other sets.

I would say, in agreeing with others, that one must be careful on evaluating a picture due to the differences in source material. Examples: film grain on a movie, particularly on an older one, grain introduced in low light situations, crummy cameras, etc.

My conclusion:

You like the Samsung? Wanna buy one? You won't be disappointed.

You like the RCA? Wanna buy one? You won't be disappointed.

By the way I was right on the 1394 (firewire) problem. Evidently there is firewire and there is firewire. Although my Canon GL1 and my JVC miniDV/VCR recorder will NOT work with the 1394 output, I just got a JVC JY-HD10U HD camcorder, and it works perfectly through firewire.

Frank (happy as a clam with my RCA)

Postscript: RCA just sent me a brochure on there new 7 inch DLP offering. It looks promising, but it looks silly nailed to a wall like a deer head. Somehow a big box that sticks out seven inches (or more with the brackets, I guess) doesn't really "fit" esthetically.

Originally posted by minime9us
i talked to a guy at a store today that said that he had sold both the 61inch RCA and 61inch Samsung. ...

I asked his opinion on the PQ comparison between the two. ...

Surprisingly he said that he had done that and almost no difference. I asked him if he could do it again just to be sure. He said he would and I will find out the results tomorrow.
I'm sure he will report the results you are looking for.

Did he have a RCA set on display?

I don't know about other RCA DLP owners, but the only reason I haven't reported on hooking up a DVI DVD player to my unit is because at this point my progressive scan DVD player is providing adequate pq for me especially since I don't watch more than a couple of DVD's per week.

Where I hope to get the best use of DVI is out of my cable box whenever they choose to turn it on. Cox's SA 3250HD box has a DVI output, but as of this moment it is not "hot" and want be until Cox and SA turn it on.

The cable box gives my TV a 1080i signal on everything going to it. Whatever the TV is doing its doing it fine and meets my criteria and still gets the "WOW" effect from first time HD viewers.

I guess I could drop down the coin for a new DVI DVD player, but I've passed the age where the longing for the "latest bestest" keeps me up at night. Sorry....

Originally posted by Old Pirate
I don't know about other RCA DLP owners, but the only reason I haven't reported on hooking up a DVI DVD player to my unit is because at this point my progressive scan DVD player is providing adequate pq for me especially ...

I think you are right. RCA probably does a good job with analog and 1080i. The only difference is that your current DVD player is doing the conversion to analog. If you switch to DVI input that conversion would be done by the RCA. Without spending some cash there is no way to tell which would be better. They may be indistinguishable.

It doesn't seem like there is any reason for RCA owners to go for DVI now other than HDCP encoded broadcasts.

Originally posted by htwaits
There doesn't seem like there is any reason for RCA owners to go for DVI now other than HDCP encoded broadcasts.
At the risk of sounding dumb, could I ask you to expand on that? Since you say "broadcasts", I assume you mean TV, and therefore from a non-OTA source like a cable STB including ones with a DVR (such as a Mot 6x08).

Originally posted by grittree
Since you say "broadcasts", I assume you mean TV, and therefore from a non-OTA source like a cable STB including ones with a DVR (such as a Mot 6x08).
Yes. Any HD broadcast arriving through a STB (cable or satellite) that had HDCP copy right protection flags turned on. At the moment there are no such broadcasts but there will probably be premium shows that use them in the future. I'm not sure how DVRs will work with HDCP when they go HD. I assume that the would refuse to output to a non HDCP device and would down rez to 480p.

Be gentle, I'm new at this.

In summary, you are saying for the RCA, you only would want to use the DVI when the components won't pass copy protected stuff. Otherwise, since, unique to the RCA, the PQ will be similar either way.

Am I getting this right?

Originally posted by grittree
In summary, you are saying for the RCA, you only would want to use the DVI when the components won't pass copy protected stuff. Otherwise, since, unique to the RCA, the PQ will be similar either way.

Am I getting this right?
Yes, but that's all theory. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't replace equipment just to be able to input through DVI on a RCA DLP. If I was buying something new anyway, I would probably like to have DVI or HDMI included as a future benefit.

I just saw the latest issue of Home Theater magazine on the newsstands. In it they reviewed 10 HDTVs including the RCA 61" Gateway 56" and the Samsung 46" DLPs. The RCA DLP came in last. The highest ranking DLP was the Samsung but several sets finished higher (including the Sony 60" LCD).

The thing that disturbed me most was the fact that they stated that the RCA DLP could NOT be adjusted for better greyscale tracking. For most of the other sets they were able to do an adjustment (hidden menu I guess), but the RCA did not have any menu they could access! They rated the sets before and after calibration. So I guess you can forget about getting the RCA professionally calibrated.

Paul..

While I do own an RCA DLP and enjoy it immensely, I wouldn't put too much stock in a commercial magazine.

My expertise is not in audio and video but in other arenas and in those areas I watch dedicated commercial magazines do surveys, studies, and analysis. In almost every situation the magazines tend to analyze in such a way that their largest advertisers products do well.

I don't know what you beef with RCA is, but in reading your posts for weeks you go out of your way to point out what you perceive as RCA's failures.

I own one, I'm not embarrassed to say it. I've had no problems, the pq is as good as any other brand DLP I've seen in stores or in individuals homes who have tweeked both the tv and signals.

I bought my 50 inch RCA for what a Samsung 43 costs, so whatever RCA may have done to save dollars also saved me and others some.

Then there is the OTA tuner that I got for "free" that most other DLP brands require their purchasers to buy extra.

Based on value for what I use a TV for.....my analysis says my RCA was a "good buy".

Old Pirate,

I own two RCA set that are over twelve years old. I have not had problems with either one. I do not have an ax to grind about RCA except the fact that Consumer Reports has constantly rated them as having the highest frequency of repair record. I do like the features in the RCA DLP, but I feel they need to prove themselves a reliable set manufacturer. Unfortunately from the lack of support of 720p and the lack of menus to calibrate the set it appears to me that they are cutting corners. As I have stated before if you like the set that's great, but based upon RCA's track record with components within the set I think they have a way to go before they can prove their reliability to me. Everyone has certain viewpoints about things, I certainly respect you views, I hope you respect mine.

Believe it or not I am trying to be objective in reviewing the RCA DLP. I applaud them for helping develop the 7' thick DLP with InFocus and adding all the additional features to their set. When you have the opportunity I suggest you read the review in Home Theater magazine.

I do respect not only your opinion, but your right to differ with mine.

The four main components in a DLP TV are light engine, lense, chip, and tuner where applicable.

The RCA uses the TI DLP II chip like everyone else, they use InFocus for light engine and lense and their own tuner which most everyone accepts is an RCA strength.

So when you say..."As I have stated before if you like the set that's great, but based upon RCA's track record with components within the set I think they have a way to go before they can prove their reliability to me.", I'm confused because most of the components in an RCA are not theirs but some of the best of the best.

I don't wish to argue or be combatant, rather just a reminder that RCA does have many happy customers like any other manufacturer and all have disatisfied ones.

The power supply, and video circuit board that decodes the picture and sound are made and designed by RCA.

Originally posted by Old Pirate
I don't know what you beef with RCA is, but in reading your posts for weeks you go out of your way to point out what you perceive as RCA's failures.

Most of the "perceived failures" of the RCA DLP were pointed out when there was great interest in a new TV with the feature set and entry price of the RCA.

Then some people saw it in showrooms and bought one. Others didn't buy and stated why. If you read the Samsung DLP threads or the Sony GWIII threads you will find both negative and positive reports from owners of those set. You will also find buyers that rejected them.

The latest "perceived failure" is the report by "Home Theater" magazine that the RCA DLP can't be ISF calibrated. That is a fact that is of no interest or use to an RCA owner who isn't interested in having a RCA DLP calibrated.

I'm not a big fan of home theater magazines but it is a standard procedure to have an ISF Certified technician calibrate sets that are being reviewed. Most owners never have such a calibration done. In a review it's easy to understand why it would count against a TV that can't be calibrated.

You are being personal when you accuse people of having a "beef with RCA" if they see things about the set that they wish had been done in a different way.

"The four main components in a DLP TV are light engine, lense, chip, and tuner where applicable."

I might describe it as:

(1) DMD + related processing electronics
(2) Light engine, including lens
(3) Video processing electronics, including scaling and deinterlacing

In (1), TI supplies the parts, but it's up to the mfr. to tweak them right.
In (2), Infocus is pretty good with DLP, as they make and sell as many as anyone.
In (3), well, there appear to be some issues

Tuner? What evidence is there that RCA has a good tuner? The DTC-100 tuner is archaic at this point and they never shipped a follow on.

BTW, I think the RCA is a reasonable choice for a DLP buyer.

Mark

So there is absoluty no service menu within the television to adjust the picture?

Can the guy who posted eariler with the service manual speak up and confirm this?

My 61 inch RCA wont make it by Superbowl so im considering waiting for the new Mustang HD2+ chips to come. BB told me that since it didnt get here on time they would give me a 10% discount that would bring the cost down to around 3300 dollars total and no sales tax. It will be here Monday. After reading about the benefits of the new HD2+ chip, it sounds very nice. The dimple free thing on the chip seems like would make a big difference on the PQ. I dont care about the components being able to do the 480p, 720p, and 1080i, as i dont know of that many things to hook up to it anyway. But PQ is the most important thing to me and it has been ever since i saw a 50 inch Sammy DLP at BB for the first time and decided i had to have a DLP tv. I never thought of paying 3000 for a tv until i saw it, and all of a sudden now im considering upwards of 5000. Please give me some feedback and please freely give me your honest opinions. I'd hate to wait til summer, but if you guys thing PQ is that much better and the wait will be worth it please say so, and if not say so too, even if you dont like RCA. Please try to base your response of PQ and not dislikes for RCA because they let you down being cheap skates on their DLP design, unless you know first hand that affected the PQ. Basically I would appreciate first hand unbiased opinions as this will greatly affect my decision.

Thank you all in advance

I couldn't be more pleased with my 61" RCA. And saving $2000 doesn't bother me either.

"So there is absolutely no service menu within the television to adjust the picture?

Can the guy who posted earlier with the service manual speak up and confirm this"

Their is a regular menu to adjust picture quality such as contrast and brightness. But according to the magazine there is no way to professionally calibrate the set by getting into the "hidden" setup menu that professional calibrators use.

However, after re-reading the article they say the original factory greyscale calibration was pretty good, but they were bothered by the black levels and could not bring the color levels up to a point the viewers felt comfortable with.

I realize Ford built at one time an Edsel and some folks have never forgiven them and would never own a Ford product. Some of us have been very satisfied with both the Taurus and the Lincolns and the Marquis' and have never really thought about the past.

I would, and have recommended RCA Sceniums to several people. Some have bought and all are pleased.

Everything in life is a compromise and all things, including people, myself included, have shortcomings. Just read this board, every brand leaves someone wishing for more while others are perfectly satisfied with them.

The only people whom I pay close attention to are the owners themselves......I'll say it again....I'm very happy with my RCA DLP so please quit telling me I shouldn't be.

Originally posted by minime9us
Basically I would appreciate first hand unbiased opinions as this will greatly affect my decision.

There is no first hand experience with the HD2+ chip in RPTV sets yet because there are none on the market. It was in RPTV sets at CES but I don't remember any reports of the seven element color wheel in RPTV sets there.

Did RCA announce plans to use the HD2+ and the new color wheel at CES? All I remember reading about RCA was the new under 7" RPTV.

If you check the front projector forum you will find information about the HD2+ used in Sharp (12000 ?), Morantz (S3 ?), and probably other front projectors.

From what I've read the HD2+ alone is a fairly small improvement in PQ. When it is combined with the seven element color wheel there is a bigger improvement. When that's done there is supposed to be an improvement in detail in dark scenes and a reduction in dithering. There may also be an improvement in green over all.

Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3500 USD MSRP and Up (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=24)

Originally posted by Old Pirate
I'll say it again....I'm very happy with my RCA DLP so please quit telling me I shouldn't be.
No one should tell you that you shouldn't be happy with anything that makes you happy.

If there are posters that make you unhappy or irritate you then use the menu option "User CP" and select "Edit Ignore List". That's what it's for.

I've used the "Ignore List" once an a while for a little peace and quite. At the moment my list is empty. :)

Old Pirate:

No one has told you not to be happy with your set. Before I bought the Samsung I did a lot of research and read reviews about the set. Some people have said some very negative things about the Samsung DLP. I saw it in person and viewed the one my son bought and decided to buy one. Since I bought the set I still have read many negative (and positive) things about the set. Do I become offended or defensive by this? No, I view it as a learning experience.

Nothing in this world is black or white but shades of calibrated gray.

Originally posted by PaulGo
Can the guy who posted earlier with the service manual speak up and confirm this"

I did a search in this thread for "service" AND "manual" and the one guy with the RCA Service Manual is fbiba.

He is planning to go into the SM in one week. (01/06/2004)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3160707#post3160707

Waiting for repairs before going into Service Menu. (01/13/2004)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3203130#post3203130

Entered SM but didn't see anything that he felt comfortable working with. (01/24/2004)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3262309#post3262309

From what fbiba has to say it's not clear to me that getting into the RCA SM will allow you to do an ISF calibration.

I've been putting some serious hours on my 61"RCA. Between the kids, wife and me, Xbox, and DVD's this thing has run 16 hours per day without a hitch, so far. Granted, It's only a couple of months old.

As far as I'm concerned, the picture is outstanding. I do get some occasional "fuzziness" during dimly lit scenes on black images (but not always), other times the blacks are fantastic. From what I've read here, this is also seen in other sets.

The Samsung 931 DVD player in 1080i mode is awesome thru the DVI input. Watched Nemo in amazement the other night.

Very impressed with this TV, reading the Samsung threads makes me even more impressed. Maybe RCA can right their reputation through these models.

"Maybe RCA can right their reputation through these models."

I hope so. What do you mean about occasional "fuzziness"? The only problem I noticed was the sometimes noisy video on the HD signal.

I seem to notice the "fuzziness"(I don't know what the techno term you're using for it) when recieving OTA HD signals. Say there's a dark hallway, and a closeup of a man in a dark suit in the foreground. You can see the blotches of blacks in his suit. Maybe this is dithering?

Anyway, it doesn't always produce the same effect under similar conditions. Mostly, dark scenes work just fine, it seems if the conditions are right, this happens.

Maybe I could calibrate this effect out? I have run video essentials on it, but not the digital version.

Did I remember to say, I love my RCA?

Originally posted by kito2112
Say there's a dark hallway, and a closeup of a man in a dark suit in the foreground. You can see the blotches of blacks in his suit. Maybe this is dithering?

Yes and loss of detail in the dark areas. It can be improved with SM calibration on a Samsung but according to the magazine review quoted earlier it's not possible to calibrate a RCA in the service menu. Also, an all digital path through DVI helps other DLP sets but the RCA doesn't have a DVI all digital path.

You don't seem very bothered so there is nothing to worry about. Of course, if you were heavy into games you might get bumped off by a bad guy in the shadows that you missed. :D

Can someone explain to me what this AVIA thing is? and if i need it to calibrate my 61inch RCA when it comes in. If someone has used it please pm me with some info. I would like to have it when the tv gets here if i can so i can calibrate and see how well i like the tv before my 30 days expires. Thanks. I sure hope i get the results you did kito.

Hey I'm looking at all these posts elsewhere in this forum and people are talking about HD recorders, HTPC's, DVR's what ever that is, and a whole gammut of things they plan on hooking up to their HDTV sets. I just saw and downloaded a High Definition movie clip from a usenet newsgroup and played it on my computer. It was WMV9 format so i cant burn it and play it on a dvd, so in order for me to play this on my incoming 61inch RCA i will need to do what??? What do i need to purchase or can it be fed to the tv thru the firewire port on the tv? And if not what is the firewire port for? Is there a dvd player that supports WMV9? I have never saw such a stunning picture, i wish i knew how to post it so you guys can see. If my RCA could output that picture id be more than happy. If there is a way that i can post this 33 MB movie file please let me know. If it is possible to play this somehow on my tv i will download the rest of it before my tv comes. If someone wants to see a great HD movie clip explain to me how to post it.

And by the way this movie was recorded from DiscoveryHD it is about the praying mantis. I wish i knew how someone was able to record this thing and it come out this stunning. Its in 1080i.

RCA makes a digital recorder called the DVR-10. It records High Def and standard Def. Goes Well with DLP models.

Even if the RCA cannot be professionally calibrated, did you see the greyscale calibrations on some of the other sets in the Home Theater article even after calibration? They were frankly pretty horrible from a purely mathematical perspective. The Samsung DLP turned quite blue at low IRE levels, and that was unable to be corrected. The RCA, though slightly on the red side in the "warm" mode, at least is consistent throughout the full range.

The "blue shift" at low IRE levels drives me personally nuts, so that's why I bought the 50" RCA Scenium. Almost every last-generation LCD set I saw had this severe blue shift at low IRE, so that kind of turned me off from LCD technology at the time. In fact, the RCA was the first non-CRT set I saw that seemed to present color the same way from full light to full dark.

(OFF TOPIC): "Gladiator" on ABC Monday Night Movies looked stunning over the air last night on the RCA. What a gorgeous film transfer. I love when the transfer is such to let you see the actual grain from the film passing the telecine, and small flaws as they "blip" by in the print. The closeups on faces were just stunning, with no pixelization at all to speak of. To me, the 2nd best transfer ABC has had so far on Monday night, with "Cast Away (Tom Hanks)" still in 1st place so far.

Boy, you think DVDs look great until you see a hi-def. transfer of 35MM film. It's not as "jaw dropping" as live video HDTV, but over time, the rich and subtle detail increases really enhance the emotional impact.

"Of course, if you were heavy into games you might get bumped off by a bad guy in the shadows that you missed."

I verified this again this week. I am only seeing the dithering during on OTA HD signal. DVI port for DVD if flawless in 1080i, as is my Xbox.

I surfed past the Gladiator broadcast the other night, i was not that impressed, as I had played the movie thru my DVI input a week ago. The more HD content I see gives me a better perspective of the OTA braodcasts vs. DVD thru DVI. This dithering thing DOES bother me a little on the OTA broadcasts, but it is not there on any other input.

"Boy, you think DVDs look great until you see a hi-def. transfer of 35MM film. It's not as "jaw dropping" as live video HDTV, but over time, the rich and subtle detail increases really enhance the emotional impact."

Well spoken and I very much agree. Someday, we'll have HD-DVD and be able to enjoy this without commercials. :)

My 61" DLP is downstairs still in the box. I stopped at Gateway on the way and took a look at their 56inch. It looked really good. I have never seen an RCA DLP only the Sammy and the Gateway color detail seemed a little better than Sammy but was a little soft in comparison. It did contain a little grain as well which i think contributed to the softness. Ok Kito I also have the Sammy 931 and an xbox. I bought the Xbox brand component cables for the xbox. Do you suggest another brand? and what is your setting on avia. I dont even know what avia is but i want to see what youre seeing. Unfortunately i dont have OTA broadcasts here in Alaska at least none that i know of so the tuner wont be any good for me right now. They told me not to turn the tv on for 4 hours because it was 20 degrees outside and it rode in the back of a pickup truck and it had to warm up or id blow something inside. How do you feed the tv 35mm Hidef pictures. I have a lot to learn. I would appreciate your settings and how you connect your xbox and what settings you have for your xbox to send the best signal to the tv. I didnt know xbox could change from 480i and p to 1080i or whatever. Please let me know the best settings so i can test this thing the best i can over the next 30 days. Oh by the way its not a Scenium but the Best Buy brand that from here i have heard is the same except non-glare screen. Kito isnt that the same one you have. Please respond and sorry for the long post. Also any story on the possibility of using this tv with an HTPC, something i see other DLP owners doing. Well if it doesnt impress me Gateway knows im coming their way. I hope this one outdoes the Gateway Picture Quality. I will know in about 3 hours. I will be back in a few to check replies. Thanks.

minime9us ... DO NOT TURN YOUR NEW TV ON. GO TO BED AND PLAY WITH IT TOMORROW. Read this thread ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=359126 .

Thanks xortam, got your message just in time before i got started with it. Im confused are you never to turn the tv off once you turn it on? Do you have a surge protector on your tv? I dont have one yet so i plan on unplugging the set when im not home until i get a surge protector. Any suggestions on a good surge protector?

minime9us ... Glad I caught you in time. I just wanted to warn you about condensation causing problems. I'm in the process of researching/auditioning the current crop of HDTVs. There have been many threads in here about having solid power levels for all types of TVs. You'll need to research that yourself.

Ok i watched the tv and it looks darn good. Im using the samsung 931 dvi to the tv at 1080i and Nemo looks great. I am noticing a little grain. I turned off the enhanced thing and it improved. I wish i knew some good settings. Those Avia settings you posted Kito dont look so good with Nemo on my tv. I had to go down on the sharpness to get rid of some of the grain but softened the picture some. There is so many little tweeks in there and i dont know what half of them are. The tv looks awesome though. My wife thinks it looks at least as good as the Samsung and blows the Gateway away. Colors are the best ive seen. Sometimes the colors blow me away. This thing is absolutely gorgeous. If i can figure out how to remove the grain totally it cant be beat. Its funny though, the grain or what you think is the grain is there and all of a sudden a fish swims by and the grain is not on it at all. Sharp, shiny, perfect and then some other scenes there some grain. Ive heard of the grain since before i got the tv. Im sitting about 9 feet from the set too. Maybe it will go away totally farther away but thats as far as i can go in that room. When i play Lord of the Rings two towers theres no grain at all. Its like this is only on some scenes. So that tells me its a setting and not the screen thing that i cant fix. Im going now to set the tv up. I havent hooked anything to the tv as of yet except the dvi from the dvd player.
Ill check back to see if anyone has any good info for me. Thanks.

The grain is what I called video noise when I saw the sets at various Best Buy stores. I hope RCA comes out with a fix for it.

On another subject do you notice any problems with the sound synchronization. On my Samsung I have occasionally noticed this and it seem to be a lot worse using DVI now that Comcast has activated the DVI port and the Motorola 5100 (yesterday).

Minime...glad to hear your results with your RCA are the same as most owners.

The noise you occassionally see is no different than what we see and like you I believe it is either coming from the source (DVD or player) in certain scenes. If it was entirely the TV you'd see some form of it all the time.

As far as settings....I've already seen that setting results will differ from video source to video source and some sources have known problems. Read another thread in here on SA cable boxes that seem to make many images dark by default.

Keep experimenting and enjoy.

Mimime- Yes, I have the same TV as you the way it sounds. I haven't run Avia on my TV, I ran Video Essentials. I can post my settings later , I am at work. I know my sharpness is at 0, and black was 66 when I ran VE. Don't know the colors off the top of my head. One thing I noticed on cropped images is that my bars weren't black enough, so I adjusted to the picture and set the black level so my bars blended.

I bought the Monster Xbox component cables and the Monster optical cable. Go into your settings mode on the Xbox and try the different settings there, I think mine is at 1080i. Quite a difference.

I am still working with Comcast to get my STB working, hopefully can make some progress tonite.

Mimime- Yes, I have the same TV as you the way it sounds. I haven't run Avia on my TV, I ran Video Essentials. I can post my settings later , I am at work. I know my sharpness is at 0, and black was 66 when I ran VE. Don't know the colors off the top of my head. One thing I noticed on cropped images is that my bars weren't black enough, so I adjusted to the picture and set the black level so my bars blended.

I bought the Monster Xbox component cables and the Monster optical cable. Go into your settings mode on the Xbox and try the different settings there, I think mine is at 1080i. Quite a difference.

I am still working with Comcast to get my STB working, hopefully can make some progress tonite.

PaulGo,
I've noticed on some DVD's that the sound isn't synched either. The manual talks about this and explains that sometimes the audio is trasnfered slower or faster than the video. Very annoying though. Mostly I think this has happened for me on Superbit DVDs. I have an older pioneer DVD player so, that might be part of my problem....

Quote from PaulGo
"The grain is what I called video noise when I saw the sets at various Best Buy stores. I hope RCA comes out with a fix for it."

Well how would they be able to fix something like that. If they could this tv would be unbeatable, The colors are the best of any DLP that ive seen while the Samsung is the clearest only because of this grain is the RCA PQ less. Its just annoying when i see it. The little red eggs in Finding Nemo are beautiful when they are clear and shiny, but that grain just makes you want to see that crystal clarity so bad that you constantly are holding the remote trying to get rid of it rather than spending movie time enjoying the beauty. Its funny how some scenes are crystal clear and beautiful while other scenes from the same movie have you reaching for the remote to change sharpness or something else. Since ive gotten the tv two days ago i havent watched a single movie without having to mess with the settings so that i could get a better scene due to grain. I have 30 days to exchange this tv. I dont want to but i wont keep it if i cant figure out how to get rid of the grain. The other bad thing is when i increase sharpness the grain really stands out. I cant go beyond half way on sharpness or grain is unbearable. I have to lower the sharpness to the point of a dull image. Does the Samsung 61 inch have this grain problem. I know the 50 inch doesnt does it? If I cant fix it thats what im gonna go with. and if the Sammy has grain i will not have a DLP until they are without grain maybe the HD2+ chip doesnt have it. I just hate to get rid tv. It really has the most beautiful colors ive ever seen. It will make your jaw drop. RCA did at least that part right and when they fix that grain problem this tv will be hard to beat by anyone.

I don't notice any grain on my 61" Samsung unless I am viewing an old movie that has the grain in the film. When viewing the sets at Best Buy the RCA DLP was the only one to display this on the demo material that was being shown. Finding Nemo should absolutely have no grain since the DVD is not from film but a digital source.

I see no grain on the Nemo DVD on MY RCA.

Kito:
Which model RCA DLP do you have, I have only seen the 61" at Best Buy. Have you seen the grain on any other sources?

My grandson has watched Nemo so many times he can do the dialogue and I too do not see any grain in Nemo. Exceptionally sharp.

I would think its the DVD. (Scenium)

I have the Best Buy model. No reflective screen. Running DVD thru DVI and all movies are very close to HD quality. Nemo is just flawless. I especially can't get over the fish when they're out of water and the water is shining on their bodies. I see NO grain in the beginning egg attack scenes.

Where I see dithering or grain is during OTA HD broadcasts. I am just running a cheap RCA set top antenea (sp?), I may need to upgrade in this area.

Where I see dithering or grain is during OTA HD broadcasts. I am just running a cheap RCA set top antenna (sp?), I may need to upgrade in this area.

Unlike analog which could cause grain or snow a digital picture should not have the same problems. If the signal is weak you will get no picture or a lot of pixalization (big square blocks with a momentary freezing).

Paul...while agree with your basic premise I have noticed grain in some PBS broadcasts at times in HD and when it is noticable I see at least a situation that I think causes it.

Our PBS system often simulcasts 5 signals under channel 19. HD is only used between 8 and 11 pm. Sometimes they turn off one or two of these signals and although I get a full picture, the grain is more apparent when they turn off only one other simulcast. If they turn off 2 giving more bandwidth to HD I have no problems....I honestly don't think all the effects of simulcasts have been fully explored and understood by the consumer.

Our CBS, NBC, and ABC are also broadcasting simultaneous signals OTA.

I reset all the settings last night back to factory settings and watched NEMO the grain was gone after i did a few little adjustments. I'm dazzled by the colors still most of all. I am still trying to test this thing on HD and dont have anything to feed to it. I have 25 more days to test it before my 30 free trial is up. I had a friend download an HD broadcast that he got off of the internet. It was a show about a praying mantis that was on HD Discovery channel. I played it on my computer and its absolutely amazing, WHen i put the dvd into the RCA DLP there is grain and when i up the sharpness to clear up the blurriness the grain is everywhere. He burned it with a dvd burner and nero. Maybe it lost quality somewhere during that process. But on my computer there is no grain or blurriness. Also im using the Samsung 931 DVI dvd player at 1080i on all dvd's i play.
PaulGo when you saw the graininess on the RCA in that store what was being fed to the tv. Im hoping that it was only grainy because they had the edge enhancement on. Did you ever see it without edge enhancement where it did not look grainy. At this point im considering exchanging for the 61 inch Sammy but i dont want to do that if the PQ on them are the same. If i send this thing back and get the Sammy 61 inch and dont see a PQ difference i will be very upset. Im trying to weigh all the fact based on PQ as i can before i do that. This tv is absolutely stunning, just dont want to miss out on something better if its better PQ wise, i will go with better PQ. As stated before if the grain is not an issue then i think this thing cant be beat by anything that ive seen so far. Feedback please. Maybe what i was seeing is not called grain. Or maybe that analog step that i heard about was the cause. Tell me what you guys think. Thanks

Minime...glad to hear your results with your RCA are the same as most owners.
Old Pirate you said this.
"The noise you occassionally see is no different than what we see and like you I believe it is either coming from the source (DVD or player) in certain scenes. If it was entirely the TV you'd see some form of it all the time."

and then you said this.
My grandson has watched Nemo so many times he can do the dialogue and I too do not see any grain in Nemo. Exceptionally sharp.

are you saying that you never see grain from dvd's? Or are you saying that you do see grain on dvd's just not the Nemo dvd becasue I expect some grain on regular tv. But not on dvd.

Please reply.

Thanks

Originally posted by minime9us
are you saying that you never see grain from dvd's? Or are you saying that you do see grain on dvd's just not the Nemo dvd becasue I expect some grain on regular tv. But not on dvd.

Some movies are created with grain on purpose. Others may have grain because the original deteriorated before a transfer was created. There is also grain introduced into the DVD process if the studio cuts corners in the transfer process.

PaulGo- "Unlike analog which could cause grain or snow a digital picture should not have the same problems. If the signal is weak you will get no picture or a lot of pixalization (big square blocks with a momentary freezing)."

You nailed it here PaulGo, I don't know the technical jargon for PQ, I have been using the wrong term. The OTA problems I'm having sounds like pixelization, I believe. This occurs during dimly lit scenes on dark objects as I stated before. It is not the entire frame, as I would think it would be if I was losing or recieving a weak signal. There are definately large blocks and freezing you mention.
Thank you, I'll upgrade my antenea and see what happens.

Kito you were seeing large blocks and were calling them grain? Well no i dont that large blocks or pixelation. What i see is the litte grains but they arent like snow unless you go really close to the tv set. For all i know they are supposed to be there its just that ive never seen it on a big screen. I wish i knew how to determine if its something representing lack of quality or something that all tv's have and will be there even if i get the Sammy 61inch. Maybe the 61inch Sammy owners see the same thing im seeing just know that its supposed to be there and i dont cause ive never had a big screen before. I just wish i had a person here who could tell me either way after seeing the screen.

Did you see the Sammy DLP at Best Buy? Did you see the grain in the picture? If you did not you won't see it on the Sammy DLP you would purchase since all the Sammy DLPs have the same internal parts (except for a larger wattage bulb in the 61" unit). If you read the Samsung threads I believe you will not find people complaining about this. Its possible that a RCA DLP owner knows how to get rid of it or perhaps RCA has a fix for it. You might want to call RCA service and tell them about your problem or ask Best Buy for another set to see if is any better. Good luck!!

Folks, these are just the facts of the matter, the differences between two really good sets, but each with different strengths.

The RCA has unmistakeably more grain (video noise) in the picture than the Sammy. I've seen this myself, side by side RCA-Sammy, and there's no contest here. It's a fact of the RCA at this stage.

Before you get your panties in a bunch about this, just accept that each TV has trade-offs in picture quality. While the Sammy has a smoother texture, the colors are not as good as the RCA, and neither is the brightness or shadow detail.

The RCA is very good, it's just not perfect. The Sammy isn't either. And if you have problems on the Sammy with *your* colors, this is especially bad since the color decoder is non-adjustable, meaning that an ISF tech is limited to less than perfect tweaks of the gains and cuts. Even the tint control is absent from the user menu. Unforgivable!

My warning to you, if you are expecting perfection and are bothered by grain, is that if you trade for a Sammy, you may be equally bothered by color balance not as good as you had on the RCA, or missing shadow detail.

At some point, it's best to just enjoy the programming. Nobody has the perfect picture yet. Beyond that, the Sammy 61" to answer a question, has a great picture, fully the equal of the 50". But so does the RCA. So what I'm saying, is change your expectation, or accept that you won't be happy with either one. Nothing else at the price point can touch the RCA or the Sammy. If you want to pony up for the best Plasmas, like the Pioneer Pro-1000 Elite 50 inch, (or the Fuji or Panasonic just behind...) it's your money, you get what you pay for, and they ARE better.

My main problem is that i purchased an RCA DLP based on what I saw in a 50" Samsung DLP. I dont know if the RCA would have sold me if i had saw it in the store like the Sammy did. The colors on this RCA are something that words cant express and i have figured out how to get rid of almost all grain. I just had to turn off the enhanced thingamajig. So now animation looks almost flawless. Nemo and lion king have absolutely no grain. Sharp as can be. But now the challenge is to get real movies to look that clear. I wish i had a good digital camera to show you how beautiful this thing is without grain. If i can do that with cartoons shouldnt i be able to get rid of grain with real movies? I mean with real people? Sorry to beat a dead horse. I just feel like im closing in on the solution.

Tom your response really gave me a good outlook on my situation. Now i just have to see that Sammy one more time just to make sure. I really wish i could see HD on the set and see how grain affects it.

Some rumors from other forums:

"Don't buy the RCA 61 inch RCA the BestBuy in now carrying, Manager says that he has as many going back to the factory as coming in. Wait on the second generation that is due out the first part of Feb 2004. Talked to Bill at Big Bang elec and says it will be worth the wait. Make sure you get the new model number HDLP61W151 and not the K2 that Best Buy sells."

"And, i was also wondering about the NEW Feb. 2004 series of RCA's that the one gentleman talked about??? If thats true, maybe we should all wait a little bit to see if there is a remarkable difference,,cause technology is jumping so fast, they might have really come out with a NEW MODEL that blows the others ones away, that might be the reason RCA's 61" DLP is so hard to find right now, cause they are not wanting to start mass marketing them yet, UNTIL the new one comes out??? Just a thought, but i know RCA's DLP 61" are on High Demand, and not very many available yet??? "

"I just stopped by Best Buy last night, and found out the they are not selling any 61" DLP RCA's Scenium either, cause RCA is coming out with a new model, supposedly better and all, so i guess we'll just have to wait and see, heard its suppose to be out soon,,,if anybody see's the new model, tell us what you think."

The last message was posted on Feb. 1, 2004 - can anyone confirm these rumors?? Below is the forum I was refering to:

http://www.soundstagelive.com/cgi-bin/hts.pl?read=5534

Also you can refer to the main forum which has other user feedback about the RCA and Samsung DLPs:

http://www.soundstagelive.com/talk/hts.html

Those soundstagelive forums are a hoot. Occasionally good info, but they are mostly blind leading the blind. Not comparable to avsforum in signal/noise.

Best quote I saw in the thread was:

>After reading everyones response it is very clear what I should
>buy. I'm going to forget about the RCA and Samsung and get an
>etch-a-sketch for entertainment

How do you hook up a computer to the RCA? There is no RGB so what do you do?

Originally posted by minime9us
How do you hook up a computer to the RCA? There is no RGB so what do you do?

From what I read on these threads you are SOL. The RCA accepts only 1080i into its DVI input, and this format is not compatible with PC video digital output. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

Since I now have DVI input to my RCA from Dish 811 IRD, it matters not. Maybe my *next* TV will have at least two (hopefully three) DVI inputs and one will be compatible with PC input. It would be nice to have DVI input for the upcoming HD DVD player/recorders, and satellite input as well as PC input (dream on).

No need to be sorry Im not SOL i have 3 more weeks in which to return this set back to BB. I am weighing it all out at this point to see what it can and cant do. I do know that it has too much grain for me. I think i will be purchasing a Samsung either 50 or 61 inch. They have already informed me that an exchange wont be a problem its just that BB only carries up to the 50 inch Sammy. I wish they carried the 61 inch Sammy id have them order it now. I cant believe how beautiful its PQ is on animation and how grainy it is on regular film dvd's. Id rather watch film dvd's on my old non hidef 27 inch tv than on this new 61 inch RCA and im using the Samsung HD dvd player thru the dvi port. Im simply disappointed. I continually try to find to not mind the grain but i cant make it thru a whole movie without just turning the tv off and going to watch my old 27 inch. I had a friend come over and could not believe how much better the clarity, color, and contrast were. He said it was a definite keeper tv and then i put the dvd of Lord of the Rings in the dvd player his opinion changed almost immediately. He then said that he would not keep it if he had to watch regular film that looked that grainy. Maybe i just have a low tolerance for grain.

Minime, have you tried using component from your DVD player? All my DVDs play crystal clear with a $100 Sony 425p. Even SVCDs look great.

<First Post Warning!>
I've read ALL of this thread in addition to the other RCA thread and still have a question. Imagine that! The considered opinion appears to be that it would be prudent to wait for the 2004 next gen RCA DLP. My question is how to determine whether what you're looking at is next gen or not. Will the model number be different? Or will I have to search the specs to find out?
Thanks in advance,
Kathryn
</First Post Warning!>

Traditionally the model number of the part of the model number changes. An example last years Samsung DLPs had a model number beginning with HLM, this year it is HLN, next year it will be HLP (I believe). Other manufactures do similar things.

Paul, thank you for the quick response.

Can anyone suggest what advantages/disadvantages the RCA HD50LPW42 (50" Diagonal 16x9 DLP HDTV w/Integrated ATSC & QAM Tuner) might have as compared to the RCA HDLP50W151?

Thanks,
Kathryn

What 2004 RCA models??? I know about the new 7" wide ones at CES but that will be 10,000 and way out of my price range. What else are they coming out with this year as far as DLP goes in the 4000-5000 price range? I would like it if they were coming out with a tv just like the 61inch i just bought with the addition of RGB port for a HTPC and 720p input from dvi and components, and the new HD2+ chip. Now that would be worth waiting for. But i havent heard of such a tv coming out from RCA and so thats why im considering returning this RCA 61inch and wait for the 2004 Samsung line that are gonna have all these features, i wish RCA had.

Kathryn they are the same tv. RCA just made a model for BestBuy exclusively but its the same tv as the scenium. The Best Buy model doesnt have the much complained about glare screen but the innards are all the same. Best Buy must have struck a deal so they get their own model number so they did not have to worry about price matching with other vendors selling the scenium model.

Gritte what tv do you have? And do they sell that sony 425 dvd player at Walmart?

Mimime, thanks for the information, but the non-scenium is available at outlets other than Best Buy -- though that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't originally made for them.

Also, can anyone confirm or deny the following that I found on another message board:
"The Scenium RCA has a rudimentary system called True Scan Digital Reality which is not nearly as sophisticated (as the Samsung's signal processing unit or DNIe = Digital Natural Image Engine). On the non-Sceniums, RCA degrades this to what they call Intelligent Signal Processing which is even less sophisticated (than the Scenium or the Samsung)."

Sorry for the incorrect information Kathryn, its just that was what i was told here by other members and i was passing the info on. Have you seen the Samsung 61inch and the RCA 61inch?

One last question for now. If I decide to go with one of the RCAs (which is what I'm leaning towards, and now I find the other non-Scenium RCA!), will I need to purchase or lease an additional STB? I'm currently receiving Comcast Digital cable via the Comcast STB. IOW, does the integrated tuner really do me any good? I don't know whether we have OTA HD signal available in my area (Philadelphia).
What about the Samsung -- will my current STB act as a tuner, or will an additional purchase be necessary?
Thanks again. This forum has certainly been HD DLP University for me!
Kathryn

Minime you may not be incorrect. It may have originally been made for BB, but it is available at the RCA site and others now.
No, I have not seen them in person yet. I've spent the last couple of months researching and narrowing down my choices. I may be going to look at the non-Scenium RCA and the Samsung at BB tomorrow.
Like many of you, I'm torn between wanting it yesterday, and not wanting to spend so much money on something that's already obsolete. Frustrating!
Kathryn

Kathryn the 61inch RCA's wont accept 720p from the dvi port or the components. I would like know your opinion of the non Scenium RCA 61inch after you have compared it to the Samsung.

Minime, I've read about the 720p issue on this forum, and am prepared to deal with that in order to save $500-1000. Does this have any bearing on the necessity of purchasing a STB? This issue also applies to the 50" unit as well, does it not? That is what I am most likely to buy -- if I don't just buy an etch-a-sketch instead....:D
I'll let you know my opinion after comparing them -- though I'm not sure it will be any help. Whether it is due to differences between units of the same model, or differences of showroom configuration/setup, the jury appears to be split as to PQ. I'm almost afraid of seeing them in person and making a PQ decision that may only apply to *that unit* in *that setting.*
Ah well, what's the harm of a little more mud in this water?:rolleyes:
Kathryn

I have decided to just go purchase a dvd player to see if thats my problem before i return this tv. Any suggestions on a great progressive scan dvd player that plays different formats, and has optical audio out?

I have the RCA DLP 51" and I love the TV. I have the pioneer and it is set for progressive scan with componet cables from Ram Electronics and I watched Finding Nemo and Chicago and T3 with a few friends thinking the TV was super.

I hope a better player will make you happy with the TV

Craig

cperry,

do you have the Scenium brand? Im on my way to Walmart right now to purchase a dvd player. Hope this makes me happy. The PQ may be better than the Samsung for all i know. Ive never seen this tv with a Hidef signal on it. It may just blow me away and make me feel like i this is better than Samsung. I am using the Samsung DVD player with dvi set at 1080i, and just watched Sea Biscuit. It was clear, and very nice. I just wish i could see the difference between my tv and the 61inch Samsung then i might be fine with it. Still trying to figure out if i have OTA signals in my area. Is there a way to find out?

One last question for now. If I decide to go with one of the RCAs (which is what I'm leaning towards, and now I find the other non-Scenium RCA!), will I need to purchase or lease an additional STB? I'm currently receiving Comcast Digital cable via the Comcast STB. IOW, does the integrated tuner really do me any good?

The RCA can receive only unscrambled cable signals. You probably would only get the network (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) signals without a cable box. If you already have digital cable with Comcast you are probably better off upgrading your digital box to a HD digital box for a few dollars a month more. This will allow you to receive premium HD content. The newer model TVs (possible the next generation RCA DLP) should have a cable card slot that will allow you to receive scrambled cable content without a cable box. However this standard is only for one way transmission. If you wanted PPV movies, On Demand or other interactive services you probably would still need a cable box.

One additional comment, in my view the most important thing when purchasing a $4000 TV is picture quality and reliability. On paper specifications and features can look impressive, but you need to live with a set to appreciate the quality. One service call (or purchasing a service agreement because you feel you need to be protected) can make the cost differential minimal. That being said, no set is perfect and your being happy with your decision is all that counts.

Minime, have you seen the RCA DLP Owners thread, I think it was dlpfan who said try turning edge enhancement off, sharpness set to 45. I did that and it made a huge difference in DVD playback PQ. The grain sounds like it bothers you more than it does me, but the PQ is remarkable with edge enh off/ sharp=45.

I bought a samsung HD-931, and took it back because it made movies look grainy. Minime9us you will be happier with another DVD player!

I don't know what you guys are looking at, my 931 looks awesome in 1080i mode. Maybe we can do some scene comparisons from different movies to get to the bottom of this.

Thats a good idea Kito. I have Sea Biscuit, Jeepers Creepers 2, and some others which one or make a suggestion. By the way does anyone have the IMAX undersea adventure and if so how does it look on your RCA DLP?

I cant even tell a difference from the 480p and 1080i on my set 61inch RCA. If there is a scene that you can see a difference let me know so i can see it.

From:

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/0204/11.rca.html

"Thomson has just announced a series of new HDTV Sets, Monitors, and HDTV Displays...

title: Thomson Introduces Expansive Family of RCA HDTV Sets, Monitors and Displays

date: February 11, 2004


Thomson has just announced a series of new HDTV Sets, Monitors, and HDTV Displays. The showpieces of the RCA lineup include more than a dozen new Digital Cable Ready HDTV sets that will offer delivery of HDTV programming from local cable operators as well as widescreen reception and display of over-the-air broadcasts from local broadcasters who now offer digital TV service.

The new integrated ATSC and Digital Cable Ready models will be offered beginning this summer in a broad choice of screen sizes ranging from widescreen 40 inch sets up to mural-sized models called Profiles HDTV that are powered by DLP projection microdisplay light engines. The entire range of Thomson's 2004 HDTV products includes rear projection DLP and CRT rear projection HDTV Sets and HDTV Monitors as well as direct-view HDTV Monitors and flat-panel LCD HDTV Monitors and Plasma HDTV Displays.

Nine RCA Scenium Digital Cable Ready rear projection HDTV sets in 2004 will feature Texas Instruments' advanced DLP microdisplay technology including Profiles HDTV - ultra-thin RCA Scenium models that are thin and light enough to hang on a wall. With a new projection TV design that achieves HDTV with a cabinet only 6.85 inches deep (50 and 61 inch), consumers who buy the new RCA Scenium Profiles HDTV Sets can choose to view their HDTV programming using the set's tabletop stand or wall mounting bracket. These full-featured Digital Cable Ready HDTV Sets use a newly developed InFocus Light Engine, which enables the ultra-thin design.

Along with the ultra-thin Profiles HDTV Sets, Thomson is offering an all-new family of space saving Digital Cable Ready widescreen DLP HDTV Sets in cabinets as thin as 16 inches deep and weighing less than 80 pounds. These ergonomic DLP models feature screen sizes of 61, 50 and 44 inches, and all in the widescreen format.

The performance and feature package of both types of DLP rear-projection HDTV Sets includes:

• Built-in ATSC and QAM cable reception with Digital Cable Ready capability and CableCARD security slot for subscription to scrambled cable programming
• Second generation of Hi-Pix for 2004 DLP models combines display technology video optimization with updated Tru-Scan Digital Reality signal processing. Thomson's proprietary DLP bit sequences optimize the HDTV video for DLP displays. New Tru-Scan Digital Reality digital signal processing algorithms include advanced edge replacement, recursive noise reduction, and digital contrast expansion for a sharper, more realistic picture. Tru-Scan Digital Reality also includes horizontal and vertical peaking, auto-flesh, and 3-D Y/C frame comb technologies
• Extensive package of secure digital connections including HDMI with HDCP copy protection, dual two-way DTVLink1394 ports with DTCP copy protection (in select models), and multiple additional connections
• Touch Sensor Control Panel
• NetConnect Ethernet web browser for "second window to Internet" (in select models)
• TV Guide On Screen Interactive Program Guide"

how do these compare to the new panny dlps? Mikesan1

I saw the RCA/BB version of their DLP side by side with a Samsung DLP for the first time yesterday. The Scenium has been at Fry's for a short while with the Sony GWIII XBR, the Samsung DLP, and the Philips LCoS.

I hope RCA's distribution channels improve this year and that their new models have an all digital path that can process a 720p signal.

There wasn't any information about which TI HD chips RCA will be using. That's on difference between RCA and Panasonic or Samsung.

Maybe we will all have a chance to see the RCA sets before this time next year.

htwaits so what is your opinion of picture quality difference between the RCA/BB version and the Sammy since youve seen them side by side? Were they being fed Hidef? Ive been waiting on an opinion from you on this.

It was the standard BB loop. As long as I was 10' from the sets, I couldn't tell any difference. If BB would put up an antenna and bring in OTA PBS then you would have the best of HD to compare.

So far, no one around here that carries the RCA (I've only found two chains) is willing to do that. They won't even hook up DVD players.

By the way it was a 50" Samsung and a 61" RCA. As I went closer, the RCA started looking pretty bad after about 8'. That's probably due to it's larger screen. It's not a set to watch up close but I don't think any of the current ones are.

I just watched the IMAX Living Sea on dvd that says it was recorded in Hidef. Well i hope its not representative of hidef. It was terrible. If this is how hidef will look on my set its not worth it. My regular dvd movies look better.

Since this thread has mentioned an many occasions RCA reliability problems I thought it appropriate to show a link to this thread which talks about RCA DLP service problems.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=366131

Originally posted by minime9us
htwaits so what is your opinion of picture quality difference between the RCA/BB version and the Sammy since youve seen them side by side? Were they being fed Hidef? Ive been waiting on an opinion from you on this.

Minime, I saw both sets at the BB by me in Socal. Both were running their hidef loop. BB had Two Sammy 50's. One set up in their "dark room" and one next to the RCA on the Floor under the bright lights. The Sammy in dark room looked brighter and more vivid than the Sammy on the floor. They could have been calibrated differently, but I think the main diffrence was the lighting. The RCA looked a little more vivid than the Sammy on the Floor with noticably less glare. I never noticed the grain on the RCA with thier High Def Feed and a viewing distance of 8'+.

Since buying the RCA 61' and bringing it home, High Def from TWC still looks incredible. So does my Xbox at 1080i. DVD's show some grain (again off of the Xbox'x 480i DVD player) although I managed to reduce it considerably by taking the edge enhancement off and setting sharpness to 40. Analog channels vary by station all the way from ABC - Very Clear to WGN - barely watchable ( I am glad I'm not a huge Matlock fan.)

All in All I'm very happy with the RCA. My three selling points on the RCA over the Sammy were:

1. Size (61" vs 50" at the same price point.)
2. Glare (the TV I had before had considerable glare due to room lighting)
3. PQ (I've never notice any grain on a hi def or Xbox feed, and after playing with the settings PQ is outstanding.)

I agree with you thane the PQ is awesome on the RCA although ive only seen dvd playback on it and no Hidef. After comparing the difference between 1080i and 720p on a Sammy thru dvi with the 931 dvd player the quality was very much better at 720p. I did not think it would be. I was hoping that it wouldnt be, but it was. Now if i could get my RCA to accept 720p then i could have the same results as the Sammy but i cant and that annoys the crap out of me.

How do you get xbox to show at 1080i? I would like to try it.

Originally posted by minime9us
How do you get xbox to show at 1080i? I would like to try it.

I think he meant Xbox games at 1080i. Xbox DVD player maxes out at 480i.

ok thats what i meant how does he make xbox games play at 1080i?

The game has to support it.....check the back of the title and it will tell you. For example, ESPN Basketball supports 720p.

Hey do i still need an STB with the RCA DLP? I know it has a built in HDTV tuner and my cable service wont release their HD STB til next month. Is it possible to pick up their channels going straight thru the tv with the cable wire? Or is there an STB that i can purchase and not rent theirs.

Originally posted by minime9us
ok thats what i meant how does he make xbox games play at 1080i?

I haven't seen it but the Dragons Lair game does 1080i. And as expected the NBA 2K3 input at 720p gets the 'unusable signal' message.

Originally posted by minime9us
Is it possible to pick up their channels going straight thru the tv with the cable wire?
In some cases, yes. Depends on whether the cable company scrambles the HD channels. They will not be the channel numbers in any guides. Autoscan and then check each channel to see if there is a picture. My cable has three locals and espnhd on the analog cable.

Originally posted by grittree
In some cases, yes. Depends on whether the cable company scrambles the HD channels. They will not be the channel numbers in any guides. Autoscan and then check each channel to see if there is a picture. My cable has three locals and espnhd on the analog cable.

I went into settings for the XBOX and disabled 480p, 720p and left 1080i on. I was able to play the game then.

Was I playing the game in 1080i? I don't know, it looked good either way.

Originally posted by minime9us
Hey do i still need an STB with the RCA DLP? I know it has a built in HDTV tuner and my cable service wont release their HD STB til next month. Is it possible to pick up their channels going straight thru the tv with the cable wire? Or is there an STB that i can purchase and not rent theirs.

If your cableco has not yet released ANY HD cable STBs, it's unlikely there is ANY HD signals on the digital cable yet. You won't be able to pick up what's not there.

Depending on the model of the ATSC tuner, you may have access to NO digital cable channels, only unencrypted digital cable channels, or (with a CableCard from your CableCo) you may be able to receive them all. Of course, in all cases you need to have digital signals (SD or HD) available to receive.

The way cable works here, all the signals are on the wire. If you subscribe to analog, you don't get a STB unless you want PPV. If you subscribe to digital, you get a digital STB. If you subscribe to HD, you get a HD STB.
But what's actually on the wire is the same.
I have the same TV as minime, and it gets the four unscrambled channels on it's ATSC tuner w/o any STB.

I have the basically the same deal as gittree. I recieve 4 channels unscrambled. I went to Comcast and got their HD3250 STB and had all kinds of problems with it. They have enabled my DVI port (I'm the only one in ABQ they've enabled), and I'm recieving their scrambled HD signals, but I am getting purple and green bands running up the picture. The PQ is fantastic but I have the faint bands of color which makes it unacceptable.

I am thinking it is the STB, bacause any other 1080i signal I feed it (OTA or DVI) the picture is magnificient. I need to swap boxes and see what happens. More later...

What was the last word on if the RCA DLP could accept a 720p signal via the 1394 inputs. My cable company has a Motorola 6208 HD STB with a DVR that has 1394-DTV connectors. Is there any chance this would work at 720p?

From what I read the 1394 inputs should work with 720p. If you try it let us know if you see an improvement in quality, since unlike DVI, the 1394 standard uses compression.

I talked to the local service rep today. When i decided to return my RCA 61inch last week for a 50inch Sammy i called RCA and asked about the 720p issue and they told me to contact the local service rep about it. Well today i talked to them and they said that the RCA would not accept 720p thru dvi but would accept 720p thru component. I have the 931 dvd player and tried to test that but realized that the 931 only outputs 720p thru the dvi and not component. Has anyone tested 720p thru components on the RCA DLP's? I would but i dont have any xbox games that are 720p.

Originally posted by minime9us
I talked to the local service rep today. When i decided to return my RCA 61inch last week for a 50inch Sammy i called RCA and asked about the 720p issue and they told me to contact the local service rep about it. Well today i talked to them and they said that the RCA would not accept 720p thru dvi but would accept 720p thru component. I have the 931 dvd player and tried to test that but realized that the 931 only outputs 720p thru the dvi and not component. Has anyone tested 720p thru components on the RCA DLP's? I would but i dont have any xbox games that are 720p.

I have the 50 RCA DLP since sept 24 2003 and I use a C-Band HDTV decoder that has analog outputs and I can set it for 1080i or 720p or 480p and it will not work on component inputs when I set for 720p. It will work Ok with 1080i or 480p from the HDTV decoder.

Anyone know how to get to any service menus, I have a very green picture at low brightness levels and no user menus setting will solve the problem.

Mike T

What is the purpose of the 1394 inputs?

"Anyone know how to get to any service menus, I have a very green picture at low brightness levels and no user menus setting will solve the problem."

From the reviews I have read the service menu is not set up to allow you to correct this.

I am a newbie to this group but have followed this subject for a couple of months. After months of research, I opted to go the DLP route. The choice so far was Samsung or RCA and I chose the 61" RCA based on a) the incredibly bright colorful picture, b) the tuner c) the firewire connections and d) the price difference of about $1500 compared with the Sammy. I had ordered the HH Gregg version but gave up waiting after a couple of months. Went for the BB version.

Briefly, my experience is that it is more than I hoped for (thus far). Live in the Col. OH area and got the off air networks right off the bat with a $100 power antennae from BB. They come in great. Now have Time Warner for the extra stations. Have a Yamaha prog scan DVD player that shows DVDs beautifully. Just got X-box for my son and the 480p games in wide-screen + surround sound are also great.

Now for my concerns. Watching this and other boards has brought up an issue that may be big in the near future-the DVI issue. I don't mean to belabor the issue (or appear too ignorant). I understand that the component inputs on the RCA alter the digital signal from 720p to 1080i(like ABC broadcasts), but even those lousy ABC sitcoms are mesmerizing because they are so bright and colorful. I find myself watching bad programs because they look so darn good. The point is, that is not a problem for me because to me the 720p shows look as good as the 1080i shows. However, I get the idea from prior posts that, regarding the DVI input, something different is going to happen...like I will not get the ABC or ESPNHD programming because the DVI input will show no usable signal. Is this correct or is it simply a matter of conversion to a different signal but I will still get the programming? Since cable boxes will be going to DVI outputs and I would like to free up the 2 components for the DVD player and X-box, it is important to be able to use it. I would appreciate clarification of this if anyone knows.

I have two weeks left before my 30 days are up and I need to decide soon whether to keep this or return it and wait for the upcoming new Sammies.

Hello Gillman, I have owned the 61inch RCA from Bestbuy for a few weeks now and its totally awesome. I have not had a problem in the slightest. I also have a dvi dvd player. Unfortunately the tv set does not accept 720p thru the dvi port which forces a conversion for everything that goes into it. This is because the tv's native resolution is 720p. I play movies at 1080i thru my dvd player and they look great but they have to be converted from 1080i back down to 720p because of the tv's native resolution. You may already know this but im saying it in case you dont. I exchanged my 61inchRCA for a 50inch Samsung. I still have the RCA and in two days they will be picking it up as they deliver the Samsung. I think the RCA has better color, especially black levels than what ive seen from the Samsung, but i hate limitations especially after conducting tests on both sets. Bestbuy allowed me to hook up the same dvd player thru dvi and play some of my dvds to see if there was a difference. In 1080i mode the Samsung and my RCA looked exact. I noticed the same visual effects as i had on my set at home. Then while the movie was playing i switched over to 720p and observed noticable improvement in picture quality. I initially heard about this issue here before i bought the RCA and went with it because i didnt think RCA would intentionally build an inferior set and that the sets 1080i would somehow be just as good as Samsungs 720p dvi. Well after seeing the difference i can say in my humble opinion i was wrong. I immediately went to customer service and exchanged for the 50inch Samsung. A couple watching my test were behind me in line placing their order and just behind them was a couple who had received the RCA the night before who were returning theirs for a 50inch Sammy as well. I think if RCA would have allowed dvi to accept 720p it would look as good or better than the Sammy, and believe me i dont want to loose the 11 inches of screen, i just hope i dont notice much screen loss. I would have gone for the 61inch Samsung but no one can get me one here in Alaska and ive tried everywhere. I have never seen Hidef on this RCA though and ive heard that it is awesome. I just dont have time to wait for a Hidef signal as my 30 days would have expired soon so i had to act.

Originally posted by Gillman
I understand that the component inputs on the RCA alter the digital signal from 720p to 1080i(like ABC broadcasts)...


You should be fine with ABC. Your on board tuner will accept the 720p signal OTA. If your on board tuner will also accept unencrypted cable signals (I don't know if it will) then you will be fine unless your cable company encrypts all it's signals.

If you connect to component or DVI through a STB then you will have to set the box to output 16x9 at 1080i and you will still be fine. There will be extra conversions that other DLP sets don't have to do but chances are you will not notice unless you put a second set side by side with yours.

... I get the idea from prior posts that, regarding the DVI input, something different is going to happen...like I will not get the ABC or ESPNHD programming because the DVI input will show no usable signal.


See above. You set your STB to output 1080i and it will convert 720p to 1080i before the signal goes to your component or DVI port.

Is this correct or is it simply a matter of conversion to a different signal but I will still get the programming?


Right. You are fine. :)

minime9us and htwaits,

Thanks much for your replies, and so quickly!!

You definitely put my mind at ease, especially since there are so few knowledgeable people at the retail outlets like BB. When I brought up this issue to them, I got a lot of funny looks and comments like "it must be totally worthless if true, but I doubt it". Obviously you folks have been through this and know what's going on.

One other question for htwaits.

You said...

"See above. You set your STB to output 1080i and it will convert 720p to 1080i before the signal goes to your component or DVI port."

I assume that is referring to such as a cable company HD cable box. Do they routinely allow you to set them to the particular resolution like 720p or 1080i? And will this setting control all outputs including DVI when the cable company (Time Warner) activates them here?

Thanks again for your much needed and valued help.

Originally posted by Gillman
I assume that is referring to such as a cable company HD cable box. Do they routinely allow you to set them to the particular resolution like 720p or 1080i? And will this setting control all outputs including DVI when the cable company (Time Warner) activates them here?

Yes and you should be able to control it with an option in the STB. Each different on may do it in a different location.

Start out by asking the installer to set the box to output 1080i. If it's already installed find out how to get access to the user menus from the cable company.

If your cable STB is capable of HD then it should already be set to 1080i unless the installer made mistake.

Thanks again!

htwaits,

On the same subject. Until I get a component (hopefully the cable box) that connects to DVI, do you (or anyone else) know if there is a splitter box for component cables to avoid having to connect/disconnect the DVD player and X-box (as the RCA has only 2 component connections for the 480p and the cable box is on the other) ? (The great connections on this thing, DVI and firewire (digital) are of little use right now for me.)

Originally posted by Gillman
do you (or anyone else) know if there is a splitter box for component cables to avoid having to connect/disconnect the DVD player and X-box (as the RCA has only 2 component connections for the 480p and the cable box is on the other) ?
I don't know anything about component switches. Given the sensitivity of component cables to other signals I would expect a component switch to be expensive.

Click here for a Component Switch thread. (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203887)

It's archived so you won't be able to ask questions.

Here is an active thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236160)

I haven't read them.

Here is another thread that discusses component switches. A "splitter" would not work because it would not allow proper termination of the signal.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=321674&perpage=30

Thanks htwaits and PaulGo, those were great links and now I just need to figure out which way to go. You are right htwaits that they are not cheap-$100+, but I didn't spend this kind of money for a DLP display to 1) spend my time climbing behind the TV (big set but tight space and I could strangle myself eventually in the mass of cords) and keep switching connections from X-box to DVD player or 2) use a composite or lesser connection for convenience but lose the advantage of the display quality. I'm just glad there are choices!

With time I will learn to navigate this site and not trouble you guys for info I could have found on my own.

Thanks again :D

Originally posted by Gillman
With time I will learn to navigate this site and not trouble you guys for info I could have found on my own.

Thanks again :D
You're welcome.

Gillman, glad to help. That is the whole purpose of this forum - helping one another.

Last night I had my cable turned back on. I was looking for more HD content so I went with my local cable company now that they have the Motorola DCT-6208, DVR, HD, cable modem, DVI, 1394-dtv, USB combo box.

Very unhappy with SD channels. Much more grainy than SD on my Dish Satellite via svideo connection. I expected better. Is it unrealistic to expect digital cable to look as good as DBS? I never noticed any grain with my satellite signal like other users have reported here.

The HD channels at 1080i look very good through this STB and DVI. Also tested 1394-dtv. The channel banner on the RCA shows a 720p signal. The bad news is that the picture had so much pixelation it is not watchable. Users over in the HD equipment forum report the same trouble with the 1394 connection with other TV's.

I may have to go back to satellite for my HD content in a few months if I can't improve reception for the SD channels. Are there any threads on cable vs. DBS quality?

I take it you are running the SD digital cable thru DVI? Try running it coax out of the box on the B input or composite on another input. Hopefully, you can select the DVI input when watching HD, and another input for regular SD cable.

I am working with an SA HD3250 box, but am having problems with the DVI port. I never tried the above, but that's how I was told to do it.

Are there any threads on cable vs. DBS quality?

This was from Sahron L in the HD Programming area


"I am a die-hard satellite customer but decided to give COMCAST a try because I was going to be laid up at home for a few weeks after knee surgery. I also wanted to try out HDTV/DVR technology before I invested in the new HDTV/TIVO DIRECTV receiver in a few months. Because of the difficulty in getting COMCAST to install everything correctly I ended up getting all movie channels activated free for six months which has allowed me to perform my unscientific comparison.


HDTV Picture Quality - If I had to choose I would give a slight advantage to COMCAST

Non-HDTV Digital Picture Quality - Surprisingly COMCAST wins. The DIRECTV compression makes a difference

COMCAST Analog Picture - Cannot compare to DIRECTV but just letting you know the COMCAST picture quality is snowy

Digital Sound - COMCAST wins - COMCAST also passes through 5.1 on more stations then DIRECTV.

Service - DIRECTV wins hands down. Getting COMCAST installed was a nightmare, taking over two weeks to get everything working, over seven visits to my house, numerous lies by COMCAST personnel, and over 20 phone calls.

Extras - COMCAST HDTV/DVR is excellent. A lot cheaper then the price a new DirecTV box will cost me. On Demand is not bad either.

HDTV Stations - COMCAST does offer more HDTV stations and I don't need an UHF antenna, I like INHD, INHD2 and local sports in HDTV. But my favorite station is still DIRECTV's Discovery HDTV station. This is definitely a personal choice and I like both."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=370105

so I walked into Future Shop (was actually looking at couches), and noticed a RCA DLP next to a Sony LCD (which was actually working), and they were showing the same hockey game in SD. Now, I know you don't buy dlp's or lcd's for watching sd broadcasts - but intill CBC gets fully into HD, us canadians have to make due with SD hockey. So I want to make sure SD on my new tv is at least tolerable.
Now, the tv's - the rca just plain sucked, I couldn't beleive how bad it was. Looked like swarms of bugs around the players (dithering I presume?). The Sony wasn't anything great, but next to the rca, it looked amazing.
Now the tough question - was this difference I saw between the lcd and dlp technologies, or between sony and rca quality.
I was initially thinking about getting a sammy dlp (months away, but hey, researching is one of the best things about buying) - but I'm worried that the issues that I saw were from the TI chip and not nessecarily rca quality. Should I be looking at the lcd's as well? (stuck, dead pixels scare the sh*t out of me)
And yes I plan on actually watching a sd hockey broadcast before I buy any tv
Any thoughts out there?

I think most manufacturers are going away from LCD RPTVs. Sony will be going to SRDX(?). Panasonic and Hitachi to DLP. Plus you also have LCOS (Phillips). I don't see any new innovative designs using LCD.

Originally posted by av_canuck
so I walked into Future Shop (was actually looking at couches), and noticed a RCA DLP next to a Sony LCD (which was actually working), and they were showing the same hockey game in SD. Now, I know you don't buy dlp's or lcd's for watching sd broadcasts - but intill CBC gets fully into HD, us canadians have to make due with SD hockey. So I want to make sure SD on my new tv is at least tolerable.
Now, the tv's - the rca just plain sucked, I couldn't beleive how bad it was. Looked like swarms of bugs around the players (dithering I presume?). The Sony wasn't anything great, but next to the rca, it looked amazing.
Now the tough question - was this difference I saw between the lcd and dlp technologies, or between sony and rca quality.


I have the RCA 50 inch DLP and it looks great on SD or HD. I have never seen a TV setup properly in a display. You need to usually reduce the sharpness greatly and turn the edge enhancement off, as this is also usually set much to high. This contributes to the noise and picture grain and if the picture is over compressed you will notice the compression artifacts much more.

Mike T

i just received my 50inch Sammy and they picked up the 61inch RCA. Im watching NEMO thru dvi at 720p. I thought i was gonna see a bigger difference than i see. The 11 inch loss so far wasnt worth it. Im feeling like i may go exchange it back but i have to test it on a few more movies first. I cant believe how big a difference that 11 inches makes on my viewing experience. It looks great but i really miss my RCA.

I just had my Scenium (non-BB) 61" delivered this week. I am running DirecTV HD through a hughes HTL-HD (DVI 1080i) and OTA using the built in tuner. The picture is gorgeous in HD and more than tolerable for me in SD. The 720p issue is really inexcusable; RCA should be ashamed. However, I don't see it affecting me with my setup.

Here are some shots of my uncalibrated Scenium...

ST: Enterprise (1080i OTA Tuner)

Blue Angels Short on HDNet (1080i DirecTV)

I made a boo boo. I want my RCA back. This darn Samsung looks awesome in 720p thru the 931 dvd player thru dvi. I am watching Shrek and i have never seen shrek look this amazing. But I had the bb RCA with the anti glare screen and i miss that screen size and the picture quality was almost as good. My wife and kids came home today and were very disappointed. They thought i gave up a lot of screen for a very minor PQ difference. Now i dont know what to do. I miss my RCA and was hoping that my wife would come home and say wow that looks much better. She sat down and went thru all dvd's watching each for about 5 minutes each at 1080i and 720p and only noticed a slight difference on about 2 of 7 dvd's but stated that the difference was in clarity and not at all worth giving up 11 inches of screen for. So now i have eggs on my face. Dazed and confused.

oooh, I knew this was going to happen!

You need to get that RCA back, hook up an HD signal and watch in amazement!

Good luck in your decision!

minime9us ... you could always go back to the original plan and get the Gateway 56". Save some money over the comparable Samsung. I don't care for the looks but I guess it doesn't have other major problems, like no 720p DVI. I guess no one knows about the SM on the Gateway yet. You'd just have to keep the Gateway and not worry about any 15% restock. That, or you should hang it up until you can get a Sammy 61" HLN W1 or the HLP a little later. Somebody's got to give you want you want.

So Kito feel good about keeping your RCA and no matter what you have a good deal. I'm the guinea pig who had a chance to see em both in my home. There's no doubt that the Sammy is absolutely gorgeous displaying 720p thru dvi. My Shrek dvd looked like HD on it. Comparatively the RCA held its own just not as clear. However when i played the Sammy at 1080i it looked just like the RCA PQ wise. Just smaller. The 720p definitely makes a difference but a rather small one and its just in clarity. Colors and everything else look better IMHO on the RCA. The Kicker is that as good as the RCA looks i know it would look just as good if it could play dvd's at 720p thru dvi. I bet the OTA at 720p looks just as good as the Sammy. The price for the 61RCA is the same as the 50Sammy now thats ashamed. If the RCA could accept 720p and it was the same price as the 61inch Sammy I would take the RCA in a heartbeat over it. Although people talk a lot of trash about the RCA the set holds its own very well against Sammy IMHO. Wish i had the 50inch Sammy first and then exchanged it for the 61RCA. I dont believe id be looking back the way im doing right now.

Kito you made me laugh when you said oooh you knew it was gonna happen. Youre a smart person. My wife said i should have been happy with what i had. The Samsung has a lot to prove to me and now im off to see if it can further make me want to keep it. The best way i can describe it is what my wife said. The 61inch made me feel like i was in a theatre. The 50 inch makes me feel like im watching a tv set.

minime- I guess you have a very discriminating eye. Although I've never seen 720p thru DVI (or component for that matter), the DVD's played thru the Samsung 931 in 1080i are to my eye as good as a picture can get. I don't see any room for improvement.

That being said, I never, ever want to see a 720p signal thru DVI !!

Minime, now that you know what the Samsung looks like one other alternative is to return the 50" and get a 61" Samsung thru mailorder (such as Onecall or TV Authority) for about the same price. (No sales tax).

Originally posted by kito2112
That being said, I never, ever want to see a 720p signal thru DVI !!
Why is that? :D

Minime...I think either TV is fine. What you experienced I like Kito expected.

The RCA does hold is own.

The 720p issue is not a concern for me. Cable TV is what we use 90% of the time and only ABC and ESPN are sending out 720p and the rest of the HD is at 1080i. My cable box will allow me to set up the signals to come to the TV based on what the TV will display, even in component. Last night's Cleveland basketball game from ESPNHD was as clear as you could ever ask for so I stay confused while I enjoy a great view.

I really do believe RCA's colors are more vivid and realistic than some other brands.

Each has its strengths and weaknesses and whichever one we have we must enjoy the strength and live with the weakness. I guess my wife of 33 years figured that out about me years ago.

Paulgo i tried that but its around 600 dollars to ship it to Alaska i would have gotten in on the amazon deal but they would not even ship it to me. We argued back and forth but they just would not send me the tv due to my location. Oh and one more thing. My son woke up to watch his daily dose of NEMO and while we were watching it all of a sudden everything turned red. I mean its so red you can only see the eyes of Marlon and when he comes up out of the water to look for the boat the water is red. What that called? I didnt touch anything i was just sitting there watching and voila and it hasnt changed back so i ran upstairs to ask while my son is still watching. Ive heard about the green push but havent really noticed it. This red thing is more than push though. When the blue water is red something is definitely wrong. Help please.

Oh and Kito i only see the 720p difference on animation. THese are some of the movies i tested in 1080i and 720p. Open Range, Best Man, Sea Biscuit, Nemo, Shrek. Shrek has the biggest difference. Nemo was second. Real movies with real people in them have no difference. The difference with Shreck is that it made Shrek look Hidef. The fire from the dragon looked like real fire coming out of the screen. T he dragons eye was like a crystal. And yes i have a very discerning eye. I have 20/15 vision and i usually navigate 2 to 3 street signs ahead when i dont know where im going and looking for something. Im the guy everyone in the car asks is that the street were looking for and i say no its the one 2 blocks away becasue i can read the sign. Then they want to bet me im wrong til we get to it. Then its WOW how did you do that. And its funny you say that you dont want to see 720p cause 1080i is so good. Well the guys who delivered my Sammy yesterday said they had to pick one up before because they complained that it was too clear and they wanted a little grain because it makes the picture look more realistic. So maybe that claim has merit.

Minime, make sure your DVI cable is firmly connectted and make sure your color level is correctly set. Using DVI I don't know what a bad cable would do but I could also be the Samsung DLP or the DVD player.

Ok Paulgo its red with dvi and component. It wasnt red before and it happened while i was watching a dvd movie. Not after i connected or disconnected something. I checked all the color levels and they are all the same as before this happened. The screen is red even when i go to a blank screen that should be black.

Well i just left bestbuy and they are bringing my 61inch RCA back and picking up this Sammy piece of work. Still red and would like to watch some dvd's tonight oh well i guess my 27inch 7 year old faithful 250.00 set will answer the call.

Hey ShawnB,
I ordered my RCA Scenium 61" DLP TV (non BB) back in early January and now RCA says that it will be here at the end of April. Needless to say that I'm upset as they originally told me that it would be here by this weekend. When did you order your tv? And oh yeah, one of my old roommates was named ShawnB. You're not from Fort Worth are you?

Tmilam: I ordered mine through an ind. dealer on Feb 9th. He said that there was a very limited supply of Sceniums and that it might take until March. Imagine how happy I was when I got the call this week. Hang in there -- it's well worth the wait.

I've never been to Texas, so it must just be a coincidence.

Minime, perhaps you can get a discount on the RCA since it is now an "open box".

In all seriousness I sincerely hope you enjoy the RCA DLP and when you finally get a HD source connected you will tell us how you like it.

Oh most definitely Paulgo. Im just so surprised at all the comments here and how people who compared the two tv's mostly had opinions that they were so different in PQ. Its so close its crazy. Those opinions had me so wanting to give up the RCA for what i thought was gonna blow me away when i turned it on and would know i had a better picture. But what really disappointed me the most was that the PQ was so close. Id bet if you were me even though you favor the Sammy youd have been feeling a bit cheated. The only Sammy that might be better than a 61RCA is a 61Sammy and that unfortunately i cant get and dont think i would at this point for 1000 more dineros, as at best it barely better PQ if at all. Now im excited that my 61 is coming back home. The Sammy is still playing and red as all get up. Ive never seen anything like it. If you know someone who has had a similar experience let me know maybe they can help me get this thing watchable til my RCA gets back. Letters that are supposed to be black are red. I switched to tv and its red. Any help is appreciated.

I was waiting to see the 61" RCA DLP at the local RCA dealer, they have a good price listed but none in stock and could not tell me when they would get some. I was surprised to see one at the local Circuit City Wednesday night, it looked like they just set it in place,it did have more grain than others by it. However, after reading this thread and the experiences of mimime9us I am even more interested in the RCA. Is the Best Buy model different than the Circuit City model, is one better than the other?

PaJo:

The units are identical - even the part numbers (HD61LPW42). I saw one at my local CC, and it was beautiful. It was right next to the 60" Sony XBR LCD. The colors were better, and the picture was sharp and smooth on the RCA. It just depends on what the settings are, and on the quality of the source feed and connections.

One thing I did notice, was that 2 adjacent mirrors were stuck in the "on" position, and this was really obvious. I've seen a Sammy with one pixel stuck in the "off" position, and this condition isn't as noticeable.

This is a rare problem that can happen with the TI system, it is not related to RCA or any of the manufacturers. In fact, in RCA's case the TI is already installed in the InFocus Light Engine assy when they receive it.

The Best Buy model was specially made for Best Buy (it has an anti-glare screen and the internal component are supposedly slightly different (read earlier posts in this thread).

Mineme, here in Florida we say "the grass always looks greener.....".
What do you say; "the snow always looks whiter." <grin>

PaulGo:

It wasn't made for BB - it was made for the lower end stores to differentiate the Scenium brand that the higher end dealers will carry. The BB and CC units are the same model number - both have the anti-glare screen. Also, the guy at CC looked up the 50" model (HD50LPW42) for me in the computer, and it shows they will be carrying it. They had no inventory as of yet, but he said it looked like they will carry it in the future.

I'm patiently waiting for the 50" to become available, because I own the 50" Scenium and hate the glare on the screen. I've looked closely at both models (disassembled mine) and see that the Scenium has the same anti-glare screen behind the protective shield. I'm hoping to order the frame from the non-Scenium unit to replace my protective shield - they have the same hole pattern.

Actually my model number is HDLP61W151 but it sounds like you've been poking around enough to know that they are basically the same.

Shawn:

That's because you have the Scenium brand (as do I - mine is HDLP50W151), but the units at BB and CC are non-Scenium and have the model numbers ending with 42.

techtoyman: I went back and reread -- my bad. I thought he asked if scenium and BB were the same, not CC and BB. That's what I get for reading this at work.

Shawn:

No sweat!

Now that I know that the 1394 ports accept a 720p signal, can a HTPC emulate a VHS-D deck that I can hook up to this port?

ShawnB could you post some more pics.

Is anyone on right who right now who has an RCA if so PM me

I finally figured out which of my xbox games would do 720P. Sega's World Series Baseball 2003 & Tony Hawk 4, but when I sent my RCA DLP the 720P signal it wouldn't take it at all. It still looks very good at 480P.

I doubt I would want to give up the 11" in screen just for 2 xbox games that I have the push 720P. But it would be nice to see what I'm missing.

Anybody seen the XBOX push 720P?

PS. There's one XBOX game that does 1080i but I can't find it anywhere. It's a dragon's lair remake I think.

Two more pics...

Next week I am going to embed this sucker into the wall, so I can post better pics then.

Daredevil on HBOHD

Trading Spaces - Discovery HD

(Does anybody have tips for taking good pictures? These don't even begin to do the TV justice)

This is my first post here on the forum. Im actually an employee at one of these electronics stores(which remane nameless) but we just displayed the 61" RCA and all I can say is that the Samsung's PQ blew away the RCA. Both were hooked up on component vid HD signal the RCAs PQ was real grainy. One question tho, what exactly is the QAM Tuner?
Thanks

Hey Indy did you turn off edge enhancement. You have to do that if you dont grain will be terrible. Then turn down the sharpness to around 40. After you do that please post your difference.

If you need help turning off edge enhancement i think once you get into the settings you choose (2) Picture quality or something like that. Then choose option (6) i think its called preferences. Then Edge enhancement is the first option on that screen. If i am right your edge enhancement should be set to high. Well change that to off and then back out of there and then go to the Picture Quality screen and go all the way over to the Sharp and bring it down anywhere between 33-40. Let us know how it matched up to the Sammy afterwards.

Originally posted by IndyJeep
One question tho, what exactly is the QAM Tuner?
Thanks

Quadrature Amplitude Modulation (QAM). QAM is a digital modulation technique used over 6 MHz TV channels popular in cable systems throughout the world. It is technically not a tuner but QAM tuners generically refer to a tuner (50 MHz to 850 MHz) and demod for cable systems. Most systems use QAM 64 and QAM 256 that carry 27 Mbps and 39 Mbps respectively over a TV channel.
The bottom line is that a QAM tuner lets you receive digital cable channels if they are unencrypted and will let you receive encrypted cable channels with CableCard.

Thane- I believe I saw that XBox has The Matrix in 1080i. I have been meaning to buy that game. Thanks for reminding me.

ShawnB, Turn off your flash bro'. How do you post pics here? I could take some of my BB model.

Indy- :confused: :confused:

Yeah Kito please do.

Originally posted by ShawnB
Trading Spaces - Discovery HD

(Does anybody have tips for taking good pictures? These don't even begin to do the TV justice)

Tripod mount(or otherwise brace the camera) and don't use the flash would be a good start. lol

Some cameras are not adjustable enough to take a good picture off of a TV screen. If you can't override the flash, then there is not much point in trying to take pictures off of a screen.

My first pictures were without the flash, but I couldn't hold the camera steady enough. I'll have to see if I have a tripod lying around. Thanks!

Kito: use the 'post reply' button and attach it at the bottom of the page

Did the suggested mods to the RCA, pic looks a lot of better but the Sammy still beats it. RCA is still grainy on certain backgrounds.

Thanks for the input IndyJeep. The delivery guys just picked up my 50 Sammy and returned my 61inchRCA. I have had both of em now and after receiving the smaller tv just didnt justify the 11inches. I thought that the PQ difference would be enough to ouweigh the size loss but it wasnt. As a matter of fact everyone i invited over to see the 61inch RCA i re invited over to see the 50 Sammy they all said that the Picture is a little clearer on the Sammy but the colors and brightness they liked better on the RCA and if they were me they would have never gave up that RCA for the Sammy. Now these people know nothing about either set they were just going off of what they saw and i agreed. As a matter of fact when they picked up my RCA and gave me the Sammy, i felt sick after i turned it on and didnt see big PQ difference. Im just glad my tv is back home.
Sorry for the long post.

Oh and the temp is like 35 degrees outside, i was wondering how long i should wait to turn it on?

Here is the link to Home Theater Magazine that reviews the RCA DLP and nine other sets:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/directviewandplasmatvs/204faceoff/