Does anyone know why we have things like IFC and Sundance available in HD off OnDEMAND but no HD channel for either of the two?

I don't believe Sundance offers full-schedule HD channels on DirecTV or Dish either. And for IFC, there are some references to an HD channel on Charter cable, but that's about it.

I think they are both dabbling in HD - they definitely offer some shows in HD, as you've noted. Either way, I believe both offer very limited HD programming. I am sure that is the main reason why there is no dedicated IFC HD or Sundance HD on Cox - or most other carriers for that matter.

edit: they are both owned by the same company, by the way, Rainbow Media Holdings, LLC (http://www.rainbow-media.com/default).

Man, I see what you guys are talking about with ABC's HD quality. The Miami/Atlanta basketball game looks terrible this morning.

Was doing some channel switching last night between Cox HD and Directv HD and here is what I viewed:
Ducks we're actually on 763 in HD and looked pretty good, the D. HD feed was about the same, maybe a little better.
CBS looked better on D. 2-1 and D. KCBS
Fox looked much better on D. 11-1 and D. Fox, the Cox # 711 was washed out and bit- starved
NFL Ch. looked better on Dir. and the sound volume is MUCH louder on Dir. The Cox feed is washed out with low audio.
Univ. HD which used to be one of the best channels on Cox is now barely watch-able, bit starved etc. The sad thing is Univ. is carrying the World Hockey Championships, the Direct feed looks MUCH better yesterday, and today.
Disc. HD Theatre # 791 looks much better on Dir. HD
The 2 HD Net feeds look a little de-graded on Cox lately. HDNet Theatre showed the 3 Godfathers un-cut, no commercials and in HD over the week-end, back to back. I thought the video was ok, not great.
My observations, here in L. Forest

Thanks for the feedback Ray. I think it's pretty clear that D* quality in general is better than Cox due to Cox degrading quality over the last couple of years while trying to keep pace with HD channel additions. I've been saying for quite a while now I don't care about additional channels anymore - I want the best quality for the ones we already have. (I know I'm probably in a minority that doesn't want more HD channels, but in my view most of what we are getting now is already not true HD and adding more will make them worse).

On a related note regarding the disgusting ABC HD picture quality. It seems pretty clear that Cox gets that feed over the air since it's also degraded. It sure would be nice if instead Cox could get a direct feed from the station before it is muxed in with the other "HD" sub-channel for terrestrial broadcast. That could then actually be a selling point for Cox where they could claim their ABC HD feed is better than what you can get over the air.

Was doing some channel switching last night between Cox HD and Directv HD and here is what I viewed...

...On a related note regarding the disgusting ABC HD picture quality. It seems pretty clear that Cox gets that feed over the air since it's also degraded. It sure would be nice if instead Cox could get a direct feed from the station before it is muxed in with the other "HD" sub-channel for terrestrial broadcast. That could then actually be a selling point for Cox where they could claim their ABC HD feed is better than what you can get over the air.

Ray Lucca - Thanks for that great comparison. I'm still considering switching to D* and this helps a great deal. I didn't see ABC HD on your comparison. With all the talk about Cox ABC HD being horrible, do you have that channel on D* and could you compare the two - particularly a popular primetime show such as LOST?

Indeed. Thanks for the feedback. Although I must disagree about Universal HD. It has ALWAYS looked horrible for me on Cox. The only reason it is worse now is they have commercial interruptions during movies and censor there programs. That channel is unwatchable. Thus I no longer watch it.

I must admit I am fairly close to pulling the trigger and canceling all of my Cox Television services. I looked briefly on DirecTV's website and I can get more channels (awesome HD lineup) in better quality for less than Cox is charging. I just wish VERIZON Fios was available here.

I'll be watching the Penguins tonight so I can compare the Vs. feeds. I have noticed the ABC HD degradation, I'll try to check out Lost tonight after the Pens game. I can get the off airs in HD from Cox, and Direc tv H20 over the air and thru Direc's satellite feed . In the past the Cox feed always looked better than the Direc Sat. feed, and comparable to the over the air Digital HD feed. Recently, things have changed, dramatically. I agree completley, I want to see pristine HD quality, over quantity.

I feel so frustrated that I don't know what to do anymore. I was getting ready to pull the trigger on the TiVo HD for Cox this summer. And now I dunno what I should do :(

Indeed. Thanks for the feedback. Although I must disagree about Universal HD. It has ALWAYS looked horrible for me on Cox. The only reason it is worse now is they have commercial interruptions during movies and censor there programs. That channel is unwatchable. Thus I no longer watch it.

I must admit I am fairly close to pulling the trigger and canceling all of my Cox Television services. I looked briefly on DirecTV's website and I can get more channels (awesome HD lineup) in better quality for less than Cox is charging. I just wish VERIZON Fios was available here.

Would you stick with them for internet access? I haven't found anything close to the speed (at least download) Cox offers.

I feel so frustrated that I don't know what to do anymore. I was getting ready to pull the trigger on the TiVo HD for Cox this summer. And now I dunno what I should do :(

I believe Cox will eventually get their act together, but it may be a while. Right now, they are competing on quantity. Eventually (and I mean eventually.......) they will have to compete on quality. They can't keep raising prices, increasing channels, and lowering quality forever.

Would you stick with them for internet access? I haven't found anything close to the speed (at least download) Cox offers.

Yes. That is why I made a point of saying "Cox Television services" in my previous post. I have been pretty happy with the internet (both speed and reliability) and the price seems fairly competitive. All bets are off if Verizon ever comes here though. Never gonna happen so I guess I don't have to worry. $153+ a month just for television is insane. Especially when the quality is lackluster.

Does anyone know if Firewire to PC from DirecTV boxes is possible? This is pretty much the only feature that is keeping me from switching. Its not a huge feature anyway since I can only record basic channels from Cox nowadays. I really miss the days when EVERYTHING (HBO, SHO, HDNET MOVIES, etc...) was transferable to PC. Truly awesome especially being able to back up movies that rarely air (and sometimes weren't available on blu-ray or even DVD) and also clear space on the DVR's that tend to die. Those were the days.

Does anyone know if Firewire to PC from DirecTV boxes is possible?

Perhaps someone else can comment about firewire, but I believe you can add a large hard drive. It just has to be eSATA. Of course, that would not work for redundancy as you can only have one drive hooked up a time. Perhaps you could have a couple of drives and swap them back and forth?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=949399

Checked the Pens on VS yesterday, the Direc HD feed looked better than the Cox # 717, better saturated color, brighter picture. Checked out all of the ABC HD feeds during Lost [which used to be one of the best looking shows on TV], a dramatic ABC degradation on all of them. My take in order:

7-1, off air: Best of out there, bit starved
Dir. KABC HD: Muddier, softer picture
Cox 707: Soft, muddy picture with very poor color saturation

Cox needs to try and get a first generation feed from KABC by fiber, what we are seeing is not really HD, wait until College footballl starts , fast motion????
We are in trouble

Clicked over to Fox, Slash playing Schools Out by Alice Cooper, sounded good until the singing started.....
11-1 and Dir. Ch. 11 HD we're noticeably better again than Cox 711, this change is new, 711 used to look great. Cox is obviously pinching band-width, on the off-air channels, a new occurence to me.
I wish for better quality over greater quantity......

...My take in order:

7-1, off air: Best of out there, bit starved
Dir. KABC HD: Muddier, softer picture
Cox 707: Soft, muddy picture with very poor color saturation



Thanks for the update, Ray. This is very unfortunate. You would think broadcasting at 720p would already allow them to have that extra bandwidth they need.

I believe Cox will eventually get their act together, but it may be a while. Right now, they are competing on quantity. Eventually (and I mean eventually.......) they will have to compete on quality. They can't keep raising prices, increasing channels, and lowering quality forever.

Yeah. I am just frustrated. My TV is not full 1080p, so I have a feeling I don't experience the same quality issues as you guys are seeing... though someday I will have 1080p. As I've said many times, my main gripe with Cox's tv service is the tiny hard drive on the DVR. So in order to solve this, I can take my chances on one of two different kinds of hassle -- the Cox cable card hassle with TiVo, or the hassle of getting DirecTV and getting rid of Cox for tv completely.

I am unsure about which hassle would be worse.

Yeah. I am just frustrated. My TV is not full 1080p, so I have a feeling I don't experience the same quality issues as you guys are seeing... though someday I will have 1080p. As I've said many times, my main gripe with Cox's tv service is the tiny hard drive on the DVR. So in order to solve this, I can take my chances on one of two different kinds of hassle -- the Cox cable card hassle with TiVo, or the hassle of getting DirecTV and getting rid of Cox for tv completely.

I am unsure about which hassle would be worse.

You don't need a 1080p TV to see these issues. Macroblocking can be seen on any TV and the poor quality we all speak of (outside of macroblocking) can be seen on most any TV 32" or larger. Besides, ABC and ESPN are broadcasting at 720p anyway.

I get your pain, though. FiOS would most likely solve our issues, but that may never come to Irvine.

A little OT, but for those looking for a good solution to get fast internet connectivity between locations where there is no ethernet or wireless is spotty, I highly recommend Netgear's new solution (http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/Coax/MCAB1001.aspx). MoCA sends the signal over your existing cable lines at speeds up to 270 Mbps. It works right alongside your cable signals with no interference. One caveat is it cannot be used over satellite lines. I just got one from Fry's for about $200.

Full disclosure: they also have powerline adapters, but those are slower and the reviews are mixed - some can use them, some can't.

You don't need a 1080p TV to see these issues. Macroblocking can be seen on any TV and the poor quality we all speak of (outside of macroblocking) can be seen on most any TV 32" or larger. Besides, ABC and ESPN are broadcasting at 720p anyway.

I have to admit, then, that I'm not really seeing the problems you guys are talking about, at least not to that degree. I don't watch sports, though, except maybe the Olympics, so maybe that's a part of it.

(My TV is a 42" Sony Wega, FWIW.)

I have to admit, then, that I'm not really seeing the problems you guys are talking about, at least not to that degree. I don't watch sports, though, except maybe the Olympics, so maybe that's a part of it.

(My TV is a 42" Sony Wega, FWIW.)


On a TV of that size and quality, you should be seeing what we are talking about.

Yes, there is still macroblocking (the breaking up of the picture and seeing a bunch of square blocks, particularly in fast-action scenes), but the biggest complaints lately are a little more subtle, yet still apparent. It's basically a softer picture, less detail, and, in some cases, not as saturated (color) and / or poor contrast. Do you have a Blu-ray player? If so, watch a quality Blu-ray with some sort of wide-angle nature scene and compare that to channel 707, ABC HD. With good HD, the picture seems to jump out at you, 3D like. With poorer HD quality (or SD for that matter), the 3D "wow" factor is partially or greatly diminshed, depending on the source material, compression, etc. Cox was never that good, but I would say there is a significant decrease in the picture quality - the "jump out at you" part.

I can't recall how long you've been on this OC forum, or at least how long you've been a Cox HD subscriber, but Cox HD PQ certainly has changed over the last few years - and continues to get worse.

I haven't seen any high-def signal except Cox but I can say unequivocally that their PQ is steadily deteriorating across the board this includes standard def as well. They have been unable to correct existing problems in my area for over a MONTH. A perfect example of an inversely proportional relationship the cost goes up the PQ goes down.

I too have noticed that, even in the short 2 or 3 weeks I've had it, the pq is just dropping. ABC HD looks more and more artifacty, Discovery HD looks to be getting blurrier and blurrier, FOX HD has much more artifacting than before, it was only a small problem before, and through antenna it looks much better. I've also noticed the SD channels going down, it's most noticeable on things with solid colors, such as a cartoon or an advertisement or title card, but it's still not okay.

Cox will keep adding channels and squeezing bandwidth because most people won't complain and want more channels even at a degraded level. Right now its too expensive to run the cable for DT sat otherwise I'd switch.

...A perfect example of an inversely proportional relationship the cost goes up the PQ goes down.

Agreed, but I think it works this way:

Channel Quantity Up = Picture Quality Down = Cost Up

That would make a wavy slope.

Finally, as of Monday channel 335 is free of the artifacts caused by reduced bandwidth. According to Cox the bandwidth has been increased. This was a SDV problem which took a month to diagnose and correct and was over a wider geographical area than Aliso Viejo. Cox also credited my account for the duration of the problem.

Finally, as of Monday channel 335 is free of the artifacts caused by reduced bandwidth. According to Cox the bandwidth has been increased. This was a SDV problem which took a month to diagnose and correct and was over a wider geographical area than Aliso Viejo. Cox also credited my account for the duration of the problem.

Interesting. I wonder, though, if it was resolved by increasing bandwidth or by increasing compression. As it is a SD channel, it may be hard to assess unless someone like TheRock or moyekj have a before and after recording to compare the file size. Other than the elimination of artifacts, how does the channel look?

When it comes to Cox, I guess I'm the eternal skeptic.

Considering the source it's pretty good. My TV is a Sony XBR4 46 and non HD sports are ok with minor problems handling horizontal movement. The HD sports are excellent while blu ray is the best PQ of all. The tech told me the bandwidth was increased to the highest level available for the digital tier. I need to find another low bandwidth channel so i can complain and continue to get $25.00 off my bill every month.

Well KABC must have heard the complaints as the quality of KABCDT has improved a little the last few days. It's still not back to what it used to be but artifacting is now reduced when I watched a couple of shows. Here's some sizes for shows I still have saved that show an improving trend over the last several days (these all from the Cox 707 feed):
5/12 Dancing With the Stars - 62mins, 4.92GB
5/10 Brothers&Sisters - 59mins, 4.09GB
5/10 Desperate Housewives - 60mins, 3.74GB
5/07 Grey's Anatomy = 62mins, 3.3GB
4/30 Grey's Anatomy = 61mins, 2.55GB <----- WOW, this should be illegal!!

Also, the Lakers last Sunday game was ~14GB for 3 hours which is 4.67GB/hour. Not great but much better than the previous week on ABC.

So it's not what it used to be but is a little better...

...I was horrified at the quality of LOST on KABC last week as well. I'm curious if the source for DTV's feed is any different? If the pq is f'd up at the source I gather it would not matter who your provider is?

With that said, I've been bidding my time with Cox ever since I heard about DTV's new HD TiVo offering...last I heard they were going to have the receiver ready early/mid 2010. I won't give up my TiVo's, but unless Cox gets the bandwidth/pq issues resolved with their HD offering it will be a no brainer to jump ship.

Curious if anyone else tied to the hip with Cox because of their HD TiVo addiction is anxiously waiting to see what becomes of DTV & TiVo?

Hi there,

We got a plasma over the holidays and upgraded to a tivo hd, which we love. in fact, my wife now wants a tivo hd in the bedroom so we can stream netflix up there. We have an old tivo with lifetime upstairs and have gotten the Ok from Tivo to transfer the lifetime service, so I think we will go ahead and pick one up. This will also make us ready for Hd when we inevitably upgrade that set.

My question: I know I can add the tivo hd, feed it an analog signal and output to an analog tv with no problem. however, if we want to do the cox cable card install like we did on our hd set in order to get the extended channels that we are already paying for, are there any problems with running the output to a low def set?

if not, will we get any picture quality upgrades since we would essentially be getting an HD signal and scaling it down to our low def set? right now we just have the cable plugged directly into our upstairs set with no "digital' cable box between the signal and the tivo. we are getting bottom of the barrell quality at the moment.

thanks in advance for any help and feedback.

Peakay,

To my horrified surprise my sister is doing exactly what you describe with her S3 TiVo.

...what a sucker I was to give her an S3...at least I picked it up @ a Fry's open box sale for $99 bucks...

Peakay,

To my horrified surprise my sister is doing exactly what you describe with her S3 TiVo.

...what a sucker I was to give her an S3...at least I picked it up @ a Fry's open box sale for $99 bucks...

yea, but at least we'll be HD ready from here on, have dual tuner, lots of space and netflix/youtube access, etc..

Great price - do you think they have any more open box units?? Does anyone know of a good deal on an S3 HD Tivo or have one they want to sell?? I can transfer my lifetime to any unit and since we will be only using it in low def, I'd like to save some $$$ on this.

Thanks!

Canceled HD Net as it was actually a rip off, the only movie we ever watched was 12 Monkeys, which wasn't even in actual HD, it was 480 stretched and upscaled. Good movie, but that's besides the point.

Anyway, they gave us a 3 month trial of Starz in exchange. Now, I've watched Meet The Robinsons and Zohan (I was bored, it was a terrible movie) via OnDemand, and I'm currently watching How The Grinch Stole Christmas. It's great picture quality, really, I was surprised, but it looks as though the contrast is too low and the brightness yanked up. Are these movies SUPPOSED to be like this, or is it Starz?

It wasn't quite there in Meet The Robinsons, but in Zohan it was pretty bad. With the Grinch, it's not so bad, and it's possible the darker colors are supposed to be drowned out with lighter colors. I also noticed one of their commercials looked like this.

So, my question, is Starz doing this, or are the movies supposed to be like this?

Does anyone know what the hell happened to Titantv recently? They took away almost all of the COX HD channel listings for our area and the site seems very buggy (not recognizing reminders being set). This is very upsetting since I use that site literally everyday to plan what shows I am going to watch and record.

zap2it (http://tvlistings.zap2it.com) seems to be fine.

Well I cant really prove it but when I visited zap2it a couple days ago I am 99% sure there ads put spyware on my PC. I have been scanning my system very frequently (sometimes multiple times a day) and that was the only foreign site that I visited when I became infected. The others I visited in that session I have pretty much proved don't install spyware. Just a heads up. I used Malwarebytes' Anti-Malware to detect.

I've been watching travel channel this afternoon (753), and now it's having some extreme macroblocking, picture freeze, and loss of sound. It's happening on both DVRs, and I've rebooted one. Network channels like 707 seem OK. 754 and 755 also have the same issue. I'm in Irvine. Anyone else having these problems?

I normally never watch any of those channels but after reading your post I tuned to 754 & 755 for a few minutes and didn't notice a single glitch for either one. 753 is SDV and can't be tuned with my Tivo without a tuning adapter (which Cox still hasn't made available) so couldn't check it. So perhaps it's a localized issue. Check with your neighbors if you can to see if they have same issue.

Thanks for checking. It's gone now, but it lasted about 30-40 minutes. Cleared up just after my post. ;-)

I didn't realize we had SDV in OC. I do watch 753 on occasion. Is there a list of the SDV channels on Cox in OC? I was just about ready to pull the trigger on a Tivo so I could have a much larger hard drive.

Thanks for checking. It's gone now, but it lasted about 30-40 minutes. Cleared up just after my post. ;-)

I didn't realize we had SDV in OC. I do watch 753 on occasion. Is there a list of the SDV channels on Cox in OC? I was just about ready to pull the trigger on a Tivo so I could have a much larger hard drive.
This spreadsheet has a list of channels that can't be tuned by CableCard devices (which does not necessarily mean they are all SDV):
http://members.cox.net/kevin.moye/Cox_OC_headend3.xls
For HD channels it's only 732,753,772

This may be out of line, but I am moving to Singapore :) :( good and bad.

Good, I got a job. Bad I have to give up my TVs.

I will miss the discussions here, but since StarHub offers 100mb/10mb and 6 HD Channels! haha. Ill be busy?

Anyway, i do need to sell my 46" samsung hd lcd and 26" insignia hd tube, pm if interested?

Just wondering if there's been anything new on the tuning adapter front in OC. I'm using that as my current excuse to avoid the much-needed switch to TiVo...

Just wondering if there's been anything new on the tuning adapter front in OC. I'm using that as my current excuse to avoid the much-needed switch to TiVo... There really are very few channels under SDV right now that you could possibly care about, so it's not much of an excuse. I still have yet to hear about a Motorola tuning adapter deployed anywhere in the country let alone here. (All deployments to date have been Cisco/SA AFAIK).

There really are very few channels under SDV right now that you could possibly care about, so it's not much of an excuse.

Honestly, I am usually the first one to jump on board, so my excuse-seeking behavior is very strange. I think I have developed some sort of cable card phobia. Well, not really the cable cards, but dealing with Cox about the cable cards.

Honestly, I am usually the first one to jump on board, so my excuse-seeking behavior is very strange. I think I have developed some sort of cable card phobia. Well, not really the cable cards, but dealing with Cox about the cable cards. Understandable. I would guess by now Cox has that down packed. The good news is I haven't had any issues for years now once the install procedure was done...

Anybody have an idea when we will get the HD channels that San Diego has, Spike HD, Comedy Central HD, etc.

Anybody have an idea when we will get the HD channels that San Diego has, Spike HD, Comedy Central HD, etc.

When you call Direct TV and schedule an installation.

Thanks for crushing my hopes and dreams.

Anybody have an idea when we will get the HD channels that San Diego has, Spike HD, Comedy Central HD, etc.

When you call Direct TV and schedule an installation.

Thanks for crushing my hopes and dreams.

They will come soon enough....

You're probably sick of my bitching about ABC HD quality, but seriously, I don't know what was more shocking - the Lakers crushing victory over the Magic or the appalling picture quality that ABC calls "HD". I talked to several people at work with a range of providers and it was unanimous - all said the picture quality was really bad at times.
There was a time when I enjoyed games on ABC - certainly not anymore!! They have to completely dump that other crappy HD sub-channel that is clobbering the little bandwidth they have...
Cox really needs to look into getting a proper direct feed from KABC (if they have one) instead of the crappy OTA signal.

I ended up having to sit 11' away from my smallish 47" TV to make watching the NBA Finals game 1 tolerable.

Honestly, I am usually the first one to jump on board, so my excuse-seeking behavior is very strange. I think I have developed some sort of cable card phobia. Well, not really the cable cards, but dealing with Cox about the cable cards.

I'm in the same boat. I'd really like to switch to Tivo to get a 1 TB drive. It looks like I'd only be missing 753 (Travel Channel) on Tivo right now, but it's not a dealbreaker yet since I have more than one Cox DVR, so I could just switch out the main one to Tivo, and I could still watch/record 753 on the bedroom DVR, and then I could switch that one out later. I wish there wasn't a $300 price premium on Tivo to go from 160GB to 1TB storage. I'd probably end up getting the 160GB and adding an external 1TB drive which would cost less. The only downside to that is if either drive fails, you lose all the shows, so you double your chance of loosing shows. That would be no big deal if there was an easy way to do backups like on a PC.

I'm in the same boat. I'd really like to switch to Tivo to get a 1 TB drive. It looks like I'd only be missing 753 (Travel Channel) on Tivo right now, but it's not a dealbreaker yet since I have more than one Cox DVR, so I could just switch out the main one to Tivo, and I could still watch/record 753 on the bedroom DVR, and then I could switch that one out later. I wish there wasn't a $300 price premium on Tivo to go from 160GB to 1TB storage. I'd probably end up getting the 160GB and adding an external 1TB drive which would cost less. The only downside to that is if either drive fails, you lose all the shows, so you double your chance of loosing shows. That would be no big deal if there was an easy way to do backups like on a PC.

Save yourself $215 bucks or so and get the lesser TiVo and upgrade the internal drive yourself. You'll get the added storage without doubling your chance of catastrophe. It is not difficult to image the factory drive onto a bigger one. There is a handy tool that runs right under windows called WinMFS (http://www.mfslive.org/winmfs/) . It is very simple to use and can also be used to run periodic backups of either all data or just your configuration data (Season pass info, etc). You may have read that booting windows with the TiVo drive attached will overwrite a portion of the MBR and cause it not to work. Not to worry, this is not an issue with Windows as of XP SP2.

Cheers

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered an HDTiVo, which arrived today. Wuss that I am, I ordered a pre-upgraded one from Weaknees (who I've used before and really liked) and once the cable cards are installed, I will have space for 107 hours of HD!

Cox is, in theory, coming out on Saturday to install the cable cards. Cox CS didn't give me too much of a hassle, other than making sure I couldn't use OnDemand, etc. They quoted me $4 a month for the 2 cable cards, which is fine (plus the truck roll fee, bleh).

I'm actually keeping my Cox DVR for the moment. I'll drop it off when I'm sure everything is going ok with the TiVo.

Please pray to the deity of your choice for me about the cable card install -- this is the part that I'm seriously dreading.

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered an HDTiVo, which arrived today. Wuss that I am, I ordered a pre-upgraded one from Weaknees (who I've used before and really liked) and once the cable cards are installed, I will have space for 107 hours of HD!

Cox is, in theory, coming out on Saturday to install the cable cards. Cox CS didn't give me too much of a hassle, other than making sure I couldn't use OnDemand, etc. They quoted me $4 a month for the 2 cable cards, which is fine (plus the truck roll fee, bleh).

I'm actually keeping my Cox DVR for the moment. I'll drop it off when I'm sure everything is going ok with the TiVo.

Please pray to the deity of your choice for me about the cable card install -- this is the part that I'm seriously dreading.
Most likely the installer will bring an M-card for the installation as the S-cards are no longer being manufactured. For a Tivo HD you only need 1 M-card to get full dual-tuner functionality. The older original Series 3 models need 2 cable cards regardless of type but I doubt you bought one of those.
I think it's fairly obvious to distinguish between M-card and S-card as I believe the M-cards have "M-card" or something like that labeled on them.
The installer may insist you need 2 since they don't usually know the difference between the original Series 3 and the Tivo HD units or even the difference between an S-card and an M-card. If you do some homework and have some printed materials ready to show the installer you can convince him otherwise.
With a single card that can save you $2/month plus 1 "additional outlet" fee. For more detailed queries/questions/concerns you should probably post in Tivo forums and you will get plenty of help. There is plenty of information there already by doing a search as well.

Ironically, they told me on the phone that they had no M-cards, only S-cards. I guess we'll see what the guy turns up with on Saturday.

Ironically, they told me on the phone that they had no M-cards, only S-cards. I guess we'll see what the guy turns up with on Saturday.

Well I'm hoping that's not true! Let us know how the install goes.

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered an HDTiVo, which arrived today. Wuss that I am, I ordered a pre-upgraded one from Weaknees (who I've used before and really liked) and once the cable cards are installed, I will have space for 107 hours of HD!

Cox is, in theory, coming out on Saturday to install the cable cards. Cox CS didn't give me too much of a hassle, other than making sure I couldn't use OnDemand, etc. They quoted me $4 a month for the 2 cable cards, which is fine (plus the truck roll fee, bleh).

I'm actually keeping my Cox DVR for the moment. I'll drop it off when I'm sure everything is going ok with the TiVo.

Please pray to the deity of your choice for me about the cable card install -- this is the part that I'm seriously dreading.

Pressure them for a single dualstream card. I got one from Cox OC and it reduced my monthly fee by 50% ($2 :D)

What are the advantages of getting tivo over the normal cox equipment?.

I have several tvs in my house. 4 of them have cox dvr cable boxes, but 3 are connected straight to cabel. One of the 3 connected directly to cable is a "modern" vizio with a digital tuner, the other 2 connected directly to cable have old analog tuners.
Any comments on whats going to happen after Friday's cutover to all digital tv? I have watched all the public service anouncements and shows about the cut over to digital tv,
but they all seem to ignore tvs connected directly to cable.

I have several tvs in my house. 4 of them have cox dvr cable boxes, but 3 are connected straight to cabel. One of the 3 connected directly to cable is a "modern" vizio with a digital tuner, the other 2 connected directly to cable have old analog tuners.
Any comments on whats going to happen after Friday's cutover to all digital tv? I have watched all the public service anouncements and shows about the cut over to digital tv,
but they all seem to ignore tvs connected directly to cable.

That's because it only has to do with over-the-air analog broadcasts. You're fine.

What are the advantages of getting tivo over the normal cox equipment?. Here's a few:

* Much, much better first-run only season passes and Advanced wishlists
* Tivo To Go and Multi-Room Viewing capabilities
* 30-second skip support
* Easy to upgrade internal hard drive
* External Esata drive support
* Overall picture quality is better over component and/or HDMI compared to DCT3416 especially for SD channels
* Great 3rd party tools for copying shows from Tivo to your PC or vice-versa and for video streaming.
* Can record from both OTA & cable natively
* Amazon, Netflix, YouTube, podcasting, etc.
* Web scheduling capabilities (and other HMO features such as pictures, music)
* Native passthrough output format i.e. Output 480i, 720p, 1080i according to whatever the source resolution is
* 14 days of guide data (only 7 for Passport)
* Can customize the guide channels to be only those you care about (Passport Echo has this too)
* Guide data much more complete
* S3: Front panel displays show titles of current scheduled recordings for each tuner

Perhaps the biggest single reason that pushes people away from Cable co. DVR to Tivo is ability to greatly expand storage capacity. If the cable companies would just wise up and provide more than a measly 160GB capacity they could probably prevent a lot of customers from even contemplating other solutions...

I have several tvs in my house. 4 of them have cox dvr cable boxes, but 3 are connected straight to cabel. One of the 3 connected directly to cable is a "modern" vizio with a digital tuner, the other 2 connected directly to cable have old analog tuners.
Any comments on whats going to happen after Friday's cutover to all digital tv? I have watched all the public service anouncements and shows about the cut over to digital tv,
but they all seem to ignore tvs connected directly to cable. As already mentioned you don't have to do anything. The only thing that you may notice different is for some of the local over the air broadcast SD channels Cox may have to generate them based on HD broadcasts with 16:9 aspect ratio in which case they will have to add black bars on top and bottom to fit to a 4:3 aspect ratio without distorting the picture.
(They could choose to distort the picture I suppose but I doubt that will be the case).

Perhaps the biggest single reason that pushes people away from Cable co. DVR to Tivo is ability to greatly expand storage capacity. If the cable companies would just wise up and provide more than a measly 160GB capacity they could probably prevent a lot of customers from even contemplating other solutions...

That's definitely my reason. I'd have stuck with the Cox box if it was available in a capacity that was reasonable to me. Less than 15 hours of HD is not reasonable. I do have to say that even with all the advantages of TiVo, I will really miss the ability to see live TV in the corner while I'm messing with the menu/settings!

BTW, when I was on the phone with CS, they told me there would be a new cable box coming out "later this year." Of course she had no details about hard drive capacity.

Here's a few:

* Much, much better first-run only season passes and Advanced wishlists
* Tivo To Go and Multi-Room Viewing capabilities
* 30-second skip support
* Easy to upgrade internal hard drive
* External Esata drive support
* Overall picture quality is better over component and/or HDMI compared to DCT3416 especially for SD channels
* Great 3rd party tools for copying shows from Tivo to your PC or vice-versa and for video streaming.
* Can record from both OTA & cable natively
* Amazon, Netflix, YouTube, podcasting, etc.
* Web scheduling capabilities (and other HMO features such as pictures, music)
* Native passthrough output format i.e. Output 480i, 720p, 1080i according to whatever the source resolution is
* 14 days of guide data (only 7 for Passport)
* Can customize the guide channels to be only those you care about
* Guide data much more complete
* S3: Front panel displays show titles of current scheduled recordings for each tuner

Perhaps the biggest single reason that pushes people away from Cable co. DVR to Tivo is ability to greatly expand storage capacity. If the cable companies would just wise up and provide more than a measly 160GB capacity they could probably prevent a lot of customers from even contemplating other solutions...

Thanks for the info, do i lose any channels with tivo?.

Here's a few:

* Can customize the guide channels to be only those you care about



Great list; thanks, Moyekj. I have an old Series 2 box that I haven't used in a while, but for the years I did, it was an amazingly simple and streamlined GUI. The navigation beats hands down anything the moto boxes with Passport can do. I miss it, but cannot justify the equipment cost to upgrade to the latest.

I should point out that you can do the above with the Passport, too. It's just not as intuitive to get to it.

I should point out that you can do the above with the Passport, too. It's just not as intuitive to get to it. I forgot Passport added that capability long after I stopped using it - it's been going on 3 years now since I switched to Tivo S3!

Thanks for the info, do i lose any channels with tivo?. Currently with Cox not yet providing a Tuning Adapter yes, but it's a pretty small set of channels - mostly the PPV and foreign language crap. For HD channels you lose only 732,753,772. If/when Cox provides the adapter then you get those back.
VOD you lose regardless of having Tuning Adapter or not, but I would never use the overpriced, sluggish and sub-par quality VOD anyway so that doesn't bother me in the least.
(And if you really must have VOD I suppose you could rent a Cox non-DVR box for $5/month, maybe even free if it means you will give Cox extra money for paying for VOD).

Thanks again

Wow. Either you guys are making Tivo sound really good or Cox is doing a great job making their DVR look like crap.

I am getting very impatient with Cox over there external hard drive support. Also waiting on the multi-room viewing. Also waiting on the picture in picture. Also waiting on additional HD channels. Also waiting on better On Demand navigation. Also waiting on all of the other things Cox has promised us. But we have Poker and Solitaire. Oh Boy!!! Take that DirecTV. :rolleyes:

"* Great 3rd party tools for copying shows from Tivo to your PC or vice-versa and for video streaming"

Does that include HD Premium channels like HBOHD? That feature alone would make me buy the TIVO. Those were the days. Being able to record and save the shows I paid for. But apparently 5c has stopped piracy... Oh wait. Nevermind. :rolleyes:

So is TiVo TCD658000 HD XL DVR the best one right now?

I am getting very impatient with Cox over there external hard drive support. Also waiting on the multi-room viewing. Also waiting on the picture in picture. Also waiting on additional HD channels. Also waiting on better On Demand navigation.


Don't worry, I'm sure all of that will be coming soon, now that I have spent the money on TiVo :) I have a real talent for jinxing things into existence that way.


So is TiVo TCD658000 HD XL DVR the best one right now?

I bought an upgraded TiVo HD instead. For $150 less I got 107 hours of HD, which I can still extend with an external drive if I ever need to. (If you're willing to do the upgrade yourself, you can save more.) I don't care about THX certification and I didn't see any other real difference between the XL and the regular HD.

Does that include HD Premium channels like HBOHD? That feature alone would make me buy the TIVO. For Cox OC it's all channels except premium ones last I checked. I believe the only provider left that currently does not copy protect the premium channels is FIOS. FIOS currently does not copy protect ANY channel in their lineup.

WOW! Fox Sports West (764) Has Angels in HD.

When did this channel go live!?

I was hunting for the angels game and was pissed when color bars were on FS PT HD, but somehow pressed up and the game was on!

In Ladera Ranch, 764 and 736 (KVEA) are now in HD.

Those 2 tune on my Tivos in Mission Viejo as well (just checked via Slingbox). Does 764 have the baseball game listed in guide data?

Those 2 tune on my Tivos in Mission Viejo as well (just checked via Slingbox). Does 764 have the baseball game listed in guide data?


Ahh, so you do use your Slingbox away from home. :) I know just for scheduling, but at least you use it.


KVEA - Yes, it's all I ever wanted. :rolleyes: Telenovelas, here I come.

Guide data on 764, but not 736.

KVEA - Yes, it's all I ever wanted. :rolleyes: Telenovelas, here I come.



WHY do we have this channel? Not one ounce of HD programming. What a ****ing terrible waste.

WHY do we have this channel? Not one ounce of HD programming. What a ****ing terrible waste.

Who knows? Contractual obligation, politically correct move, a weak interpretation of the must-carry rule? I have no idea, but what an incredible waste. Just keep cramming in more and more crappy quasi-HD stations resulting in less and less HD quality for the stations we like.

Remind me. Why do we all keep taking this?

Remind me. Why do we all keep taking this?

Because changing providers can be a headache and the alternatives are view and far between. Cox knows this. Cox exploits this. Cox loves this.

Man I wish I still lived in Huntington Beach. Looks like FIOS has been there for awhile now. Crystal clear HD picture AND the ability to record premium channels? Lucky bastards. Its truly a shame that a person is forced to move just to have other cable choices.

I really want FX. It's the last channel I really watch stuff on regularly that's stuck in SD. (Well, I guess MSNBC too, but for news it doesn't really matter all that much.)

Because changing providers can be a headache and the alternatives are view and far between. Cox knows this. Cox exploits this. Cox loves this.

Man I wish I still lived in Huntington Beach. Looks like FIOS has been there for awhile now. Crystal clear HD picture AND the ability to record premium channels? Lucky bastards. Its truly a shame that a person is forced to move just to have other cable choices.

As I always say, competition is the key. With it, most win; without it, most lose.

WHY do we have this channel? Not one ounce of HD programming. What a ****ing terrible waste.

I did come across a news program last night that was in HD, so at least some of it is in HD. I also concede that the Latino audience is probably grateful for this addition.

WOW! Fox Sports West (764) Has Angels in HD.

When did this channel go live!?

I was hunting for the angels game and was pissed when color bars were on FS PT HD, but somehow pressed up and the game was on!

Sweet, didn't notice this was there.

I live in laguna niguel and have cox cable connectd directly to a visio hdtv with a digital tuner (no box). It does not scan a HD channel for KTLA ch5. I get HD chs on this tv for2,4,7,9,11,13.

I called Cox support and got nowhere. I get CH 705 HD on my tvs connected with a cable box.

Anyone else having this problem?

I live in laguna niguel and have cox cable connectd directly to a visio hdtv with a digital tuner (no box). It does not scan a HD channel for KTLA ch5. I get HD chs on this tv for2,4,7,9,11,13.

I called Cox support and got nowhere. I get CH 705 HD on my tvs connected with a cable box.

Anyone else having this problem?

Rick, yes. Before I got my cable card installed today (report coming soon) I did a channel scan on the TiVo, and it came up with all the HD locals except for channel 5. So something is definitely up.

Thanks, I thought I was going crazy.

So, I had my cable card installed today. I had a 1-3 pm slot, and the installer, a cox employee (not a contractor) named Sang turned up at about 2. He was very nice, seemed knowledgeable, and said he had done cc installs before. He brought an M-Card (contrary to what CS had told me, naturally). He said he tries to avoid the S-Cards.

Before he did anything he checked the signal coming from the cable going into the HD TiVo. It passed. Then we started with the cable card. The first card went into the TiVo fine, but when he called the mothership, it wouldn't pair. (The guy on the phone also seemed to know what he was doing.) Sang went and got a second card, and that one paired immediately, almost as soon as the mothership sent the hit.

Testing the channels, as explained in the cc install instructions, did not work, and instead the TiVo wanted me to run guided setup again. We both knew that would take awhile, and Sang actually left me his cell number (!) so I could call him directly if things didn't work after guided setup.

It turned out that wasn't necessary, as Sang decided he wanted to check my outside connections and whatever while he was here. He ended up replacing a bunch of cables and connectors, and getting rid of what appeared to be a somewhat ancient SA box-thingie. (I don't really know why he had to do this, but he said they were required to.)

Anyway, by the time all that was done, guided setup was finished and we were able to check my channels. All the ones that were supposed to be were there, and as I continue to poke at it, everything is still fine.

All in all, Sang was here about an hour. I have to admit that for all my angst about the cable card, it wasn't really that painful. Now I just need to program all my season passes and stuff! Knock wood that everything continues to work correctly :)

And pardon me while I cheer a bit but 107 HOURS OF HD! w00t!!

Congrats Whitearrow. It still amazes me the denial by CSRs about M-cards. Of course at this time of TV year you don't really need all those HD hours. :)

Cox makes some truly terrible decisions but I tend to believe KVEA HD was a must carry situation. They probably had to add it before the analog shutoff deadline. Still a ****** choice. I also think a channel needs to have at least 50% of its programing be HD before its allowed to call itself HD. Seems like blatant false advertising otherwise.

So, I had my cable card installed today. I had a 1-3 pm slot, and the installer, a cox employee (not a contractor) named Sang turned up at about 2. He was very nice, seemed knowledgeable, and said he had done cc installs before. He brought an M-Card (contrary to what CS had told me, naturally). He said he tries to avoid the S-Cards.

Before he did anything he checked the signal coming from the cable going into the HD TiVo. It passed. Then we started with the cable card. The first card went into the TiVo fine, but when he called the mothership, it wouldn't pair. (The guy on the phone also seemed to know what he was doing.) Sang went and got a second card, and that one paired immediately, almost as soon as the mothership sent the hit.

Testing the channels, as explained in the cc install instructions, did not work, and instead the TiVo wanted me to run guided setup again. We both knew that would take awhile, and Sang actually left me his cell number (!) so I could call him directly if things didn't work after guided setup.

It turned out that wasn't necessary, as Sang decided he wanted to check my outside connections and whatever while he was here. He ended up replacing a bunch of cables and connectors, and getting rid of what appeared to be a somewhat ancient SA box-thingie. (I don't really know why he had to do this, but he said they were required to.)

Anyway, by the time all that was done, guided setup was finished and we were able to check my channels. All the ones that were supposed to be were there, and as I continue to poke at it, everything is still fine.

All in all, Sang was here about an hour. I have to admit that for all my angst about the cable card, it wasn't really that painful. Now I just need to program all my season passes and stuff! Knock wood that everything continues to work correctly :)

And pardon me while I cheer a bit but 107 HOURS OF HD! w00t!!

I'm thinking about getting one of these. Did your cox bill go up or down
and how is the picture quality. I heard cox was going to bring out a tivo
version soon.

Well... I haven't quite decided what I'm going to do yet.

If I keep the Cox DVR (either where it is now, or move it to another room) my bill will go up $2 for the cable card (I think. Though I'm sure Cox now thinks I have 2 cable cards, based on my initial conversation with CS, so we'll be "discussing" that when I get my next bill).

If I get rid of the Cox DVR, the bill should go down the cost of the DVR service + the cost of the box, which I think is about $17 or so? What I might do is replace it with a digital receiver, non-DVR, which is much cheaper.

As for Cox getting a TiVo-based DVR, we've been hearing that for literally years now. Even if they do go with the TiVo software, who knows if they would increase the hard drive capacity enough to make it worthwhile.

Thanks, and how's the picture quality.

I really want FX. It's the last channel I really watch stuff on regularly that's stuck in SD. (Well, I guess MSNBC too, but for news it doesn't really matter all that much.)

This is exactly why I keep coming back to this thread. I want FX HD and I want it now. San Diego has had it for months as well as other Cox regions in the country. Once I have that, I'll be pretty satisfied with Cox's HD lineup and then I'll purchase a Tivo.

Eddie

Thanks, and how's the picture quality.

I would say it's about the same as the Cox DVR box.

Returning to the subject of KVEA HD channel 736. I have tested it twice (both yesterday and today) and both times it was 704x480. Unless they switch it on the fly when they have HD programing (I have yet to see any) calling this channel HD is blatant false advertising. Last time I checked nobody considers 704x480 an official or accepted HD size or standard.

This is exactly why I keep coming back to this thread. I want FX HD and I want it now. San Diego has had it for months as well as other Cox regions in the country. Once I have that, I'll be pretty satisfied with Cox's HD lineup and then I'll purchase a Tivo.

Eddie

when I last asked Cox OC about FX, ABC Family and Disney (about a month ago) I got the following canned response:

"We are constantly adding HD channels throughout the year. Unfortunately, we do not have a launch date for those channels. Please visit our website, www.cox.com and view our channel line up under Digital Cable to see any updates."

I responded that their definition of "constantly" must be different from mine and that the only ones we have gotten recently were pretty worthless - ION (which doesn't seem to carry HD content) and LiveWell (which has mostly informercials and I can get that with ota antenna as 7.2); did not hear back from them. Since then, I guess they added KVEA (also worthless) and 764 which has some value.

Returning to the subject of KVEA HD channel 736. I have tested it twice (both yesterday and today) and both times it was 704x480. Unless they switch it on the fly when they have HD programing (I have yet to see any) calling this channel HD is blatant false advertising. Last time I checked nobody considers 704x480 an official or accepted HD size or standard. The meaning of "HD" is almost worthless these days. ABC "HD" is 1280x720 resolution but is so bit starved it now looks like crap most of the time. Similarly Dish advertises "Blu Ray" quality VOD since it's 1080p resolution. What they fail to point out is the bit rate is orders of magnitude lower than Blu Ray so while perhaps not false advertising, certainly misleading at best. There are still many 720x480 resolution DVD releases that look better than a lot of the HD channels we get through Cox. Point being resolution is only a part of quality - bit rate is another large part of it and is getting throttled way too much.

The meaning of "HD" is almost worthless these days. ABC "HD" is 1280x720 resolution but is so bit starved it now looks like crap most of the time. Similarly Dish advertises "Blu Ray" quality VOD since it's 1080p resolution. What they fail to point out is the bit rate is orders of magnitude lower than Blu Ray so while perhaps not false advertising, certainly misleading at best. There are still many 720x480 resolution DVD releases that look better than a lot of the HD channels we get through Cox. Point being resolution is only a part of quality - bit rate is another large part of it and is getting throttled way too much.

Yeah. Sadly I know those things. But it IS false advertising to call ANYTHING in 704x480 high definition. No grey area. Just false advertising. Its very sad to see what they did to ABC HD though. I have said it before but some of my fondest memories of HD was watching the movies ABC aired in the past.

That does bring up something I was curious about though. I always wondered about the picture quality for the 1080p programs that DirecTV offers. You know a company is solely interested in BS publicity jargon when they add new/better/advanced services before they adequately produce the normal/old/standard ones properly. With that said it is refreshing to see a company add things on a regular basis that people actually want.

The meaning of "HD" is almost worthless these days. ABC "HD" is 1280x720 resolution but is so bit starved it now looks like crap most of the time. Similarly Dish advertises "Blu Ray" quality VOD since it's 1080p resolution. What they fail to point out is the bit rate is orders of magnitude lower than Blu Ray so while perhaps not false advertising, certainly misleading at best. There are still many 720x480 resolution DVD releases that look better than a lot of the HD channels we get through Cox. Point being resolution is only a part of quality - bit rate is another large part of it and is getting throttled way too much.

Most to blame on ABC's quality is local to you and every other ABC station running Live Well HD on a sub channel in HD. It starves the main channel of its' much needed bandwidth.

Another update on KVEA-HD. COX is using the wrong feed. I have my rooftop antenna hooked up to the OTA signal and they are showing the news in HD. It actually looks really good. Reminiscent of CBS HD News. Cox is carrying the SD feed for some reason.

Another update on KVEA-HD. COX is using the wrong feed. I have my rooftop antenna hooked up to the OTA signal and they are showing the news in HD. It actually looks really good. Reminiscent of CBS HD News. Cox is carrying the SD feed for some reason. That's a good thing IMO. No need to take up more bandwidth on a useless HD channel (to me) if you can carry just the SD version of the useless channel instead...

Not counting the price of the Tivo itself.... what are the total monthly savings for swapping out a cox DVR for a cable card supported Tivo? Cox's billing for certain services is sometimes less than clear.

It is $1.99 for the cable card -- I am not sure about the whole "digital gateway" or outlet thing. Moyjeki would know better.

It is $1.99 for the cable card -- I am not sure about the whole "digital gateway" or outlet thing. Moyjeki would know better. If you have an M-card and no other box other than Tivo then there is no "additional outlet" fee, so only the $1.99/month for the cable card (compared to $17/month for Cox DVR hardware plus service fee).

Additional Outlet applies for each digital box beyond the first one, (and is only $1.50/month). Thus for example if you were to have a Cox box in addition to a Tivo then you would be charged 1 additional outlet fee (plus whatever the costs of the Cox box obviously).

In my case I have 2 Tivos and 4 S-cards so Cox charges me 3 "additional outlet" fees even though technically I should only be paying 1 (since it's 2 digital boxes and 1st one shouldn't count). However their billing system is not setup to recognize the unusual case where 1 box needs 2 cards. I'm not going to sweat $3/month extra though at the risk of having someone screw up my account/cable card setup and disable channels that should not be disabled.

NOTE: For whatever reason Cox does not break out individual "additional outlet" fees in the bill itself, it's just lumped into the digital service price. However they do list how many digital service fees you are paying, so my case it lists 4x digital service where 3 are actually "additional outlet" fees only.

My household has the following:

2 HD DVR boxes.
2 Standard Digital boxes

I would like to eliminate 1 of the HD DVR boxes and replace it with a cable card enabled Tivo. I am also very temped to cancel Showtime. It just isn't worth the $8.75 anymore. Especially since I have Netflix now. Well after looking at my latest Cox bill it looks like I will save the following if I cancel the 1 HD DVR.

$11.95 DVR SERVICE FEE
$5.50 HD BOX FEE
$4 DIGITAL CABLE SERVICE

So in the end I should save around $20 a month. With that said the HD Tivo will pay for itself in around a year. Not bad. Not bad at all.

My household has the following:

2 HD DVR boxes.
2 Standard Digital boxes

I would like to eliminate 1 of the HD DVR boxes and replace it with a cable card enabled Tivo. I am also very temped to cancel Showtime. It just isn't worth the $8.75 anymore. Especially since I have Netflix now. Well after looking at my latest Cox bill it looks like I will save the following if I cancel the 1 HD DVR.

$11.95 DVR SERVICE FEE
$5.50 HD BOX FEE
$4 DIGITAL CABLE SERVICE

So in the end I should save around $20 a month. With that said the HD Tivo will pay for itself in around a year. Not bad. Not bad at all.
Not sure you can drop $4 off digital cable service - you still need to pay some kind of digital service fee.

Also keep in mind that Tivo has a service fee of its own which you have to factor in. The longer you are willing to commit the lower that monthly fee is (or you can pre-pay upfront or even get lifetime service upfront), but with the up front hardware costs plus the Tivo service fees it works out to be approximately even I would say over 3 years or so, but the difference is you get a lot more value out of a Tivo than out of a Cox DVR so that is what makes the switch worthwhile.

Not sure you can drop $4 off digital cable service - you still need to pay some kind of digital service fee.



moyekj is correct, you still have to pay the digital cable fee which is just a little over $5 for me. So I could save about $15 a month. Right now Tivo has a fathers day sale for an HD box plus lifetime service for $498. But that's only a 160GB drive. If I add an external 1GB, that's about $170 more, or I can swap out the internal for $108 plus time. So it's a little under 3 years with the same size drive, and a little over 3 years with the 1TB drive. That's not far off the life expectancy (technology wise anyway), so it's very close in cost. I'd say it's only worth it for the extra features, much larger hard drive, multi-room viewing, better UI, etc.

Not sure you can drop $4 off digital cable service - you still need to pay some kind of digital service fee.

Also keep in mind that Tivo has a service fee of its own which you have to factor in. The longer you are willing to commit the lower that monthly fee is (or you can pre-pay upfront or even get lifetime service upfront), but with the up front hardware costs plus the Tivo service fees it works out to be approximately even I would say over 3 years or so, but the difference is you get a lot more value out of a Tivo than out of a Cox DVR so that is what makes the switch worthwhile.


The $4 is actually listed as "Digital Cable Service (qty 4) $16.45" on my bill. I divided the total by 4 and got the $4 amount. I assumed that would be eliminated with the desired configuration and be replaced with the cable card charge.

I did indeed forget about Tivo's service fee. Amazon's page seemed to neglect talking about it. So thank you very much for the reminder. I must admit its much less enticing looking at $250-299 for the Tivo, $400 for the lifetime subscription, and $120 for a larger hard drive. $450 I can do, but $800+ is really pushing it.

The $4 is actually listed as "Digital Cable Service (qty 4) $16.45" on my bill. I divided the total by 4 and got the $4 amount. I assumed that would be eliminated with the desired configuration and be replaced with the cable card charge.

I did indeed forget about Tivo's service fee. Amazon's page seemed to neglect talking about it. So thank you very much for the reminder. I must admit its much less enticing looking at $250-299 for the Tivo, $400 for the lifetime subscription, and $120 for a larger hard drive. $450 I can do, but $800+ is really pushing it.

Which is exactly why I haven't pulled the trigger either. I have a lifetime subscription on a Series 2, but that really does me no good for a new box. I really loved my TiVo, but just can't justify the increase in expense to get a new one. We're all already paying a ton to Cox.

Mine is also listed as "Digital Cable Service", but mine is $15.95 for qty. 3. Sounds like you got a better deal!

I agree on the pricing structure. At least with Cox, when it goes bad, or goes obsolete, I just take to Sand Canyon and get a new one. That's what's holding me back right now.

Also, Cox told me today they are working on increased storage, but they have no ETA. But I heard that two summers ago also. So I'm not holding my breadth.

Mine is also listed as "Digital Cable Service", but mine is $15.95 for qty. 3. Sounds like you got a better deal!

I agree on the pricing structure. At least with Cox, when it goes bad, or goes obsolete, I just take to Sand Canyon and get a new one. That's what's holding me back right now.

Also, Cox told me today they are working on increased storage, but they have no ETA. But I heard that two summers ago also. So I'm not holding my breadth.

Cox San Diego has had it for quite some time. I have a brother down there and helped him pick out a 1TB eSATA drive today - about $150. Of course, they are using SA boxes with SARA, but come on.

The $4 is actually listed as "Digital Cable Service (qty 4) $16.45" on my bill. I divided the total by 4 and got the $4 amount. I assumed that would be eliminated with the desired configuration and be replaced with the cable card charge.

Mine is also listed as "Digital Cable Service", but mine is $15.95 for qty. 3. Sounds like you got a better deal!

It doesn't quite work that way. For example, mine says Digital Cable Service (Qty of 2) for $15.45. The "Qty" should be an accurate reflection of how many digital boxes you have, but is a mix of fees including the $.50 additional TV outlet fee and the incremental cost of the tiers (up to 3) that you have less the Standard Cable service you have.

Mine is broken down as this:

Additional TV Outlet Fee - $.50
Difference between Digital Cable + any 3 tiers ($65.94) and Standard Service ($50.99), or $14.95

$.50 + ($65.94 - $50.99) = $15.45

Wow, that is very confusing!

For teague, yours is just like mine, except an extra $.50 for your additional location.

For TheRock, add one more outlet and you get $16.45.

Which is exactly why I haven't pulled the trigger either. I have a lifetime subscription on a Series 2, but that really does me no good for a new box. I really loved my TiVo, but just can't justify the increase in expense to get a new one. We're all already paying a ton to Cox.

If you have an active S2, the service price on your second box drops significantly. You can get lifetime for $299 instead of $399, annual for $99 instead of $129, or monthly for $10 instead of $13.

Your S2 can still be useful, though admittedly it's limited. With multiroom viewing you can use it to record any SD stuff you still watch then transfer it to your HD for viewing, or you can use it in, say, a bedroom to watch any SD material recorded on the HD machine.

For example I always miss Frontline during the TV season because two other shows were recording at that time. Now I can record that in my bedroom on the S2 (don't care if Frontline is SD or not) and transfer it down to watch in my living room if I want to.

Or you can sell or give away the S2 after you get lifetime on your new box and still get the discount.

If you have an active S2, the service price on your second box drops significantly. You can get lifetime for $299 instead of $399, annual for $99 instead of $129, or monthly for $10 instead of $13.

Your S2 can still be useful, though admittedly it's limited. With multiroom viewing you can use it to record any SD stuff you still watch then transfer it to your HD for viewing, or you can use it in, say, a bedroom to watch any SD material recorded on the HD machine.

For example I always miss Frontline during the TV season because two other shows were recording at that time. Now I can record that in my bedroom on the S2 (don't care if Frontline is SD or not) and transfer it down to watch in my living room if I want to.

Or you can sell or give away the S2 after you get lifetime on your new box and still get the discount.

Thanks for the info. I did not realize they discount a second service when you have the lifetime on the first. I'll have to check it out. If I can get the payback period to be around 18 months or so, I might give it a go. I really do miss the Tivo GUI. IMO, nothing else compares.

Additional Outlet applies for each digital box beyond the first one, (and is only $1.50/month). Thus for example if you were to have a Cox box in addition to a Tivo then you would be charged 1 additional outlet fee (plus whatever the costs of the Cox box obviously).


Moyekj - where are you seeing the $1.50/month charge for the "Additional Outlet?" When I look here (http://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/tv/pricing.cox), I see a $.50 fee for an "Additional Digital TV Outlet." Is it because the second and subsequent boxes are not Cox DVRs, so they charge $1.50 for each instead of $.50?

Also, is the M-card $1.99 per month or twice that as it is a dual tuner card?

It looks to me that if I did the 1-yr prepaid Tivo service, I would pay equivalent of $8.33 per month (assumes 2nd Tivo account, so $100/12) plus $1.99 per month to Cox for the M-card - a total of $10.32 per month, and I would no longer pay the $11.95 DVR service and the $5.50 HD/DVR Receiver and Remote fee of $5.50 per month. Thus the total cost savings per month would be $7.13. (math: $8.33 + $1.99 - $11.95 - $5.50 = $7.13 savings) Is this correct?

Note: I already have a 2nd Cox HD DVR that I would give back and replace with the Tivo, so unless the Additional Digital TV Outlet fee mentioned above is $1.50, that fee would be a wash.

Hi,
Please help me out finding a cheaper solution to my problem. I'm in Irvine using Cox.

As I understand it, getting 2 Cox DVRs ($18 * 2 = $36) is the only solution to watch recorded programs on 2 separate TVs. Currently I have only 1 DVR in the family room downstairs.

On the non-main future DVR upstairs, I would only like to record/watch 1 single channel (ZEE TV) for a few hours per day. Are there any economical solutions to avoid having 2 DVR's???

Does TIVO with M card support watching ZEE TV?? If that is the case, I could get rid of Cox DVR downstairs, record the show on TIVO, stream it to the computer, and then stream it to the bedroom TV. Would it be possible to do this?
Thanks

Moyekj - where are you seeing the $1.50/month charge for the "Additional Outlet?" When I look here (http://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/tv/pricing.cox), I see a $.50 fee for an "Additional Digital TV Outlet." Is it because the second and subsequent boxes are not Cox DVRs, so they charge $1.50 for each instead of $.50?

Also, is the M-card $1.99 per month or twice that as it is a dual tuner card?

It looks to me that if I did the 1-yr prepaid Tivo service, I would pay equivalent of $8.33 per month (assumes 2nd Tivo account, so $100/12) plus $1.99 per month to Cox for the M-card - a total of $10.32 per month, and I would no longer pay the $11.95 DVR service and the $5.50 HD/DVR Receiver and Remote fee of $5.50 per month. Thus the total cost savings per month would be $7.13. (math: $8.33 + $1.99 - $11.95 - $5.50 = $7.13 savings) Is this correct?

Note: I already have a 2nd Cox HD DVR that I would give back and replace with the Tivo, so unless the Additional Digital TV Outlet fee mentioned above is $1.50, that fee would be a wash. Sorry, looks like pricing has changed since I last figured things out. Here's my cable TV portion breakout of the bill:
1x Cox Limited Basic $20.00
1x Cox Expanded Service $30.99
4x Digital Cable Service $15.95
4x CableCard $7.96 (I have 2 Tivo S3s requiring 2 CableCards each, so technically I have main box + 1 additional outlet)

NOTE: My digital service is the 3 tier
From pricing web page (https://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/tv/pricing.cox) 3 tier digital total is $65.94, so taking out limited basic & expanded that means:
1x 3 tier digital = $14.95

Additional Digital TV Outlets are $0.50 each according to pricing web page, so Cox seems to be charging me for 2 additional outlets (instead of 3 as I thought before):
1x 3 tier digital=$14.95 + 2 additional outlets=$1.00 => $15.95
(Technically that is wrong and it should be 1 additional outlet, but I'm not going to fight over $0.50/month).

M-card and S-card are same price of $1.99, so if you get Tivo HD (rather than the original S3) you can save some money by avoiding extra cable cards and additional outlet fees.

M-card and S-card are same price of $1.99, so if you get Tivo HD (rather than the original S3) you can save some money by avoiding extra cable cards and additional outlet fees.

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize the S3 was different than the Tivo HD (thought they were one and the same - they're both HD though, right?). Is it safe to assume, then, that the S3 only takes the S-cards, while the Tivo HD takes the M-cards?

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize the S3 was different than the Tivo HD (thought they were one and the same - they're both HD though, right?). Is it safe to assume, then, that the S3 only takes the S-cards, while the Tivo HD takes the M-cards? The original S3s are no longer sold. They can take M-cards as well but still only function in S-mode so you would still need 2 per box anyway. Tivo HD of course is HD as well and only 1 M-card is needed (though it can work with 2 S-cards as well). There are in fact quite a few differences between the models. In some respects the S3s are better, in other respects the Tivo HD units are better.

It looks to me that if I did the 1-yr prepaid Tivo service, I would pay equivalent of $8.33 per month (assumes 2nd Tivo account, so $100/12) plus $1.99 per month to Cox for the M-card - a total of $10.32 per month, and I would no longer pay the $11.95 DVR service and the $5.50 HD/DVR Receiver and Remote fee of $5.50 per month. Thus the total cost savings per month would be $7.13. (math: $8.33 + $1.99 - $11.95 - $5.50 = $7.13 savings) Is this correct?

Note: I already have a 2nd Cox HD DVR that I would give back and replace with the Tivo, so unless the Additional Digital TV Outlet fee mentioned above is $1.50, that fee would be a wash.

Your $7.13 cost savings assumes you get the Tivo Hardware for free, and I think to be fair that should be counted.

Your $7.13 cost savings assumes you get the Tivo Hardware for free, and I think to be fair that should be counted.

Understood. I was referring strictly to the monthly costs. If you read the post just before the one you quoted (quoted below), you'll see my desire to have a payback period of around 18 months. Unfortunately, only saving the $7 a month won't get me there. As Moyekj said, the main reason to switch is the value of a Tivo over the Cox DVR.

Thanks for the info. I did not realize they discount a second service when you have the lifetime on the first. I'll have to check it out. If I can get the payback period to be around 18 months or so, I might give it a go. I really do miss the Tivo GUI. IMO, nothing else compares.

We can only dream...

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/06/22/tivo-coming-to-time-warner-cable-potentially-lots-of-other-prov/

They've been saying this for literally years now.

They've been saying this for literally years now.

Agreed, but perhaps their newfound strength from the EchoStar triumph will expedite it. As I said, "we can only dream [of such a day]."

god damn when are we getting Comedy Central, Disney, FX, IFC, Sundance, Cartoon Network (or whatever it's called nowadays) and Nickelodeon in HD?Another update on KVEA-HD. COX is using the wrong feed. I have my rooftop antenna hooked up to the OTA signal and they are showing the news in HD. It actually looks really good. Reminiscent of CBS HD News. Cox is carrying the SD feed for some reason.

That might be because they feel not a whole lot of people will be watching it, so why devote the bandwidth of 720p/1080i to it?

That might be because they feel not a whole lot of people will be watching it, so why devote the bandwidth of 720p/1080i to it?

If that's the case, then why even give it an HD channel in the first place? They would just stick with the SD version, channel 36. And that's what makes this so egregious in that they are wasting an HD channel/bandwidth for mostly SD feeds - as they do with other channels, too.

Perhaps they feel it at least deserves 480p? 480p is far better than 480i, if you ask me.

Anyway, I do agree, I see no reason they can't just dump the current SD channels that have HD counterparts, maybe even just have 11 be the HD Fox, 21 the HD Discovery, etc. That would also allow more than two measly premium HD channels per premium subscription.

FYI
I have a tv tuner in my computer and it's tuned to 104.5 and I am watching Gran Torino right now. I imagine this is one of the In demand channels.
I would guess free movies isn't what cox has planned.

104.5 is now offline, but the movie was over. I think transporter 3 (sd) is on channel 106.1

As already mentioned you don't have to do anything. The only thing that you may notice different is for some of the local over the air broadcast SD channels Cox may have to generate them based on HD broadcasts with 16:9 aspect ratio in which case they will have to add black bars on top and bottom to fit to a 4:3 aspect ratio without distorting the picture.
(They could choose to distort the picture I suppose but I doubt that will be the case). Out of curiosity I looked at some of the SD digital versions of local broadcast channels this morning. Looks like only KCET (channel 6) feed currently is being generated from HD feed directly by Cox. It has the black bars on top and bottom. And for SD programs it also has pillars on either side.
I thought KCBS (channel 2) would also have the same issue as there is no digital SD feed available over the air last I checked, but seems like Cox must be getting that from some other source...

Also noticed that since 763=PRIMEHD & 764=FOXHDW have their own dedicated channels now they are permanently broadcasting instead of being SIGN OFF most of the time (i.e. showing same content as 63 & 64). Problem is 764 on the Tivo at least still has mostly SIGN OFF displayed in the guide listings except for certain baseball games.

104.5 is now offline, but the movie was over. I think transporter 3 (sd) is on channel 106.1

Yeah. Your tuner must have QAM. Those are the On Demand programs that your neighbors are watching. The following channels offer on demand programing at various times.:

75,76,104,105,106,107

A newbie question, is there a list somewhere that shows the channels for Standard, Digital Gateway and Digital Cable for Irvine area? Is the price difference between standard cable vs. digital gateway is the inclusion of a set top box?
Thanks.

A newbie question, is there a list somewhere that shows the channels for Standard, Digital Gateway and Digital Cable for Irvine area? Is the price difference between standard cable vs. digital gateway is the inclusion of a set top box?
Thanks.
Pricing is here:
https://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/tv/pricing.cox

Min price for digital cable beyond standard cable price looks like at minimum $5 for digital gateway + $5.50 for digital box & remote (or substitute the $5.50 for a CableCard fee of $1.99 if you have a CableCard capable device).

A newbie question, is there a list somewhere that shows the channels for Standard, Digital Gateway and Digital Cable for Irvine area? Is the price difference between standard cable vs. digital gateway is the inclusion of a set top box?
Thanks.

Welcome, screen. Here is the channel list (http://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/tv/channel-lineup.cox). And here is the pricing for the various services (http://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/tv/pricing.cox). Look these over and let me know what you are thinking of getting. I should be able to estimate pricing for you.

Phdeane, thank you for the URL's. I have one Plasma and two analog TV's but will swap out one analog with a Samsum HDTV next week. Will I need to pay $55.99 (digital Gateway + standard service) + $5.00 (digital gateway) to have HD on my Plasma and the Samsun? What exactly is digital gateway service? A set top box or it is just a charge to allow HD?
With Limited Basic, I was able to get local channels in HD on my Plasma but several channels (ch 4-1, 5-1, 9-1, ...) have disappear since early this evening.
Thank you again.

Phdeane, thank you for the URL's. I have one Plasma and two analog TV's but will swap out one analog with a Samsum HDTV next week. Will I need to pay $55.99 (digital Gateway + standard service) + $5.00 (digital gateway) to have HD on my Plasma and the Samsun? What exactly is digital gateway service? A set top box or it is just a charge to allow HD?
With Limited Basic, I was able to get local channels in HD on my Plasma but several channels (ch 4-1, 5-1, 9-1, ...) have disappear since early this evening.
Thank you again.

I pay about $110 per month and I, too, have two DVRs with HD, but I have three digital tiers.

In addition to the $55.99, you'll have to pay $17.45 for each DVR ($11.95 for DVR Service + $5.50 for HD/DVR Receiver & Remote) and $.50 Additional Digital TV Outlet fee for the second digital location. If you want additional tiers, you'll pay for those, as well as for any movie channels. If you go the cable card route, you'll avoid the $17.45, but pay $1.99 per cable card. You will not get all the channels, though, as SDV (Switched Digital Video) is in place. You'll also have to pay for any movie channels you want.

What exactly is digital gateway service? A set top box or it is just a charge to allow HD?

I'm not exactly sure what this is. Perhaps it is just a fee to go from standard cable to digital cable. I do know you cannot avoid it, even with a cable card. There does not appear to be a package you can get that doesn't contain it. :rolleyes: It's not a charge to allow HD as it has been around longer than HD has been offered.

I hadn't bothered much with OTA reception but decided to re-scan just to see what I can still pick up after the transition. I used to get all the major network channels before when they were all UHF, but now since 7,9,11,13 moved down to VHF range my antenna is not picking them up anymore It is UHF+VHF antenna sitting in the garage but looks like it does a poor job with VHF.

Not too bothered about it except I won't be able to compare Cox vs OTA bit rates for 7, 9, 11 anymore, and I'm not motivated enough to setup a proper antenna for the job.

When I wrote about not able to get local HD channels, I was not talking about over the air reception. Until last night (6/28), I was able to get local HD channels through cable with my Limited Basic subscription. Yesterday, I can't get 2.1 any more, and rescanning caused couple more channels (4.1, 5.1..) being dropped.

I hadn't bothered much with OTA reception but decided to re-scan just to see what I can still pick up after the transition. I used to get all the major network channels before when they were all UHF, but now since 7,9,11,13 moved down to VHF range my antenna is not picking them up anymore It is UHF+VHF antenna sitting in the garage but looks like it does a poor job with VHF.

Not too bothered about it except I won't be able to compare Cox vs OTA bit rates for 7, 9, 11 anymore, and I'm not motivated enough to setup a proper antenna for the job.

Weren't channels 2-13 previously VHF and 14 and above previously UHF for OTA?

When I wrote about not able to get local HD channels, I was not talking about over the air reception. Until last night (6/28), I was able to get local HD channels through cable with my Limited Basic subscription. Yesterday, I can't get 2.1 any more, and rescanning caused couple more channels (4.1, 5.1..) being dropped.

So with a QAM tuner, you can no longer get the HD versions of channels 2, 4, 5, 9? Are there any others?

So with a QAM tuner, you can no longer get the HD versions of channels 2, 4, 5, 9? Are there any others?

With a Pinnacle HDTV turner on my PC, I get 2.1, 5.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 9.1, 11.1 and 50.1. On my Panasonic plasma, channel 4.1, 5.1, 9.1 and 11.1 no longer get pick up when I re-scan. Even though 2.1 is detected, it is not watchable on the Panasonic. The question I wonder is am I supposed to get local HD channels with the Limited Basic package? If I am should get them, I can call tech support.
Thanks.

With a Pinnacle HDTV turner on my PC, I get 2.1, 5.1, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 9.1, 11.1 and 50.1. On my Panasonic plasma, channel 4.1, 5.1, 9.1 and 11.1 no longer get pick up when I re-scan. Even though 2.1 is detected, it is not watchable on the Panasonic. The question I wonder is am I supposed to get local HD channels with the Limited Basic package? If I am should get them, I can call tech support.
Thanks.

I am not familiar with the exact numbering designations for the basic cable provided HD channels, but in the past, they have been provided. Of course, a QAM tuner is required, which you obviously have. I don't think we are "supposed to" (read: it's included in your price) get local HD channels, but, as mentioned, they have always been provided before. It's strange that you get different channels on different tuners. Perhaps the 4.1, 5.1, and 9.1 are the HD feeds, and your Panny plasma does not have a QAM tuner? Again, I'm not familiar with the numbering designations.

The Panny does have QAM turner. As mentioned before, the Panny was able to turn to these channels (2.1, 4.1, 5.1,...) until last night.

The Panny does have QAM turner. As mentioned before, the Panny was able to turn to these channels (2.1, 4.1, 5.1,...) until last night.

Right, missed that part. That's just strange then.

Weren't channels 2-13 previously VHF and 14 and above previously UHF for OTA? No, the analog OTA versions of 2-13 were all VHF range (by definition). The digital versions were all UHF range. 7,9,11,13 moved to VHF range on June 12. 2, 4, 5 remain on same UHF frequencies as before and I can still tune those.

No, the analog OTA versions of 2-13 were all VHF range (by definition). The digital versions were all UHF range. 7,9,11,13 moved to VHF range on June 12. 2, 4, 5 remain on same UHF frequencies as before and I can still tune those.

Got it; I thought you were referring to the analog channels, but it makes sense now considering your "decided to re-scan" comment.

The Panny does have QAM turner. As mentioned before, the Panny was able to turn to these channels (2.1, 4.1, 5.1,...) until last night. Could be a couple of things:
* PSIP mappings got screwed up/discarded and hence the channels are no longer mapping to the "friendly" OTA numbers with your QAM tuner and showing up instead on their actual channel frequencies. If that's the case a scan should still find them, but they will have "ugly" numbers such as 84.x for NBC, 85.x for CBS etc. and they will not have names associated with them either.
* If you subscribe to basic cable only then a low pass filter to block all channels above 513 MHz (block channels above RF 72 or so). could have been added to your cable drop. Though if that were the case ABC & FOX should have remained visible still as last I checked they were on RF channel 31.

Can they add a low pass filter on my line? In addition to basic cable, I do have HSI with them.

Cable modems are using RF 80 & 81 (561MHz & 567MHz) last I checked so it is conceivable a filter is being used still (filtering anything above 600MHz or so). But as I mentioned if that is the only problem then you should still see ABC and FOX as they are RF 31. More likely the PSIP mappings are (temporarily) screwed up and you just have to look at 31.x, 84.x, 85.x etc. with your TV QAM tuner to find the channels. Depending on your tuner could be your tuner is mapping them to 0.x or unable to map them at all if things are not quite right - every QAM tuner I've owned has behaved a little differently in regard to mapping frequencies to channel numbers especially without proper PSIP information.

I hadn't bothered much with OTA reception but decided to re-scan just to see what I can still pick up after the transition. I used to get all the major network channels before when they were all UHF, but now since 7,9,11,13 moved down to VHF range my antenna is not picking them up anymore It is UHF+VHF antenna sitting in the garage but looks like it does a poor job with VHF.

Not too bothered about it except I won't be able to compare Cox vs OTA bit rates for 7, 9, 11 anymore, and I'm not motivated enough to setup a proper antenna for the job.

That sucks. The only changes I have noticed since the transition are the following:

Fox channel 11 has a much lower signal. Its still fairly watchable but there are breakups.

KCOP channel 13 has a much higher signal. Unfortunately they never show ANYTHING good anymore. That station is totally worthless.

Cable modems are using RF 80 & 81 (561MHz & 567MHz) last I checked so it is conceivable a filter is being used still (filtering anything above 600MHz or so). But as I mentioned if that is the only problem then you should still see ABC and FOX as they are RF 31. More likely the PSIP mappings are (temporarily) screwed up and you just have to look at 31.x, 84.x, 85.x etc. with your TV QAM tuner to find the channels. Depending on your tuner could be your tuner is mapping them to 0.x or unable to map them at all if things are not quite right - every QAM tuner I've owned has behaved a little differently in regard to mapping frequencies to channel numbers especially without proper PSIP information.

So find, I only able to find KNBC at 84-450...

One reason my PC tuner is able to pick up more channels maybe due to it is from the cable internet line. For our house, the cable is split into two. One to the room with the cable modem. The other one feeds rest of the TV's in the house.

For those lucky enough to get FIOS in OC (mostly northern county) the lowest tier HSI is 15 Mbps down, 5 Mbps up for the same price we pay for preferred Cox HSI: $45/month.
http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/06/22/verizon-ups-fios-internet-speeds-everywhere/16471/ :(

I don't much need faster downloads, put 5 Mbps upload speeds would be a real nice bonus for slingbox use. I'm lucky if I get 512-768 Kbps sustained uploads currently...

For those lucky enough to get FIOS in OC (mostly northern county) the lowest tier HSI is 15 Mbps down, 5 Mbps up for the same price we pay for preferred Cox HSI: $45/month.
http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/06/22/verizon-ups-fios-internet-speeds-everywhere/16471/ :(

I don't much need faster downloads, but 5 Mbps upload speeds would be a real nice bonus for slingbox use. I'm lucky if I get 512-768 Kbps sustained uploads currently...

Amen to that!

So find, I only able to find KNBC at 84-450...

One reason my PC tuner is able to pick up more channels maybe due to it is from the cable internet line. For our house, the cable is split into two. One to the room with the cable modem. The other one feeds rest of the TV's in the house.

I just have the Basic+Extended package (no digital service). Tonight some digital channels are moved around. 2-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 50-1 are on their normal channels, but 4-1 is on 84-450, and 13-1 is on 118-3. As usual 28-1 is on 127-915. When I scanned last week, 50-1 was at 86-1, 5-1 was at 86-2, and I didn't notice where they put 7-1. It looks like the PSIP Cox is putting out is getting messed up.

Just checked and none of the HD locals carried by Cox OC have changed frequencies. They are the same RF channels they have been for years:
KABCDT & KTTVDT=31
KNBCDT=84
KCBSDT & KCALDT=85
KTLADT & KOCEDT=86
KCOPDT=118
KCETHD=127
So it's probably PSIP data that's getting messed up.

Maybe couple of stupid questions:
- How will COX know that the PSIP they are sending out are not correct? Someone call them up?
- On my Panny, 2.1 is not watchable (a lot of pixelization and break up) while 7.1 is fine. Does this has to do with the signal level that reaches the TV?

Maybe couple of stupid questions:
- How will COX know that the PSIP they are sending out are not correct? Someone call them up?
- On my Panny, 2.1 is not watchable (a lot of pixelization and break up) while 7.1 is fine. Does this has to do with the signal level that reaches the TV?

Yes on both questions. Give them a call and they can have someone check your signal strength. I've had them out in the past for that problem.

Because an amp COX put in years ago went out today, a tech came out to fix my snowy picture. He removed the amp, replalce all the connectors at entry to the house. Afterward, my "analog" channels are clearer than before, but my Panny still failed to detect 2.1, 5.1 and 9.1. Didn't talk to him about PSIP because he told me if I got HD channels on my Limited Basic subscription, they are "not from COX".

Because an amp COX put in years ago went out today, a tech came out to fix my snowy picture. He removed the amp, replalce all the connectors at entry to the house. Afterward, my "analog" channels are clearer than before, but my Panny still failed to detect 2.1, 5.1 and 9.1. Didn't talk to him about PSIP because he told me if I got HD channels on my Limited Basic subscription, they are "not from COX".

I can't say for sure, but I thought there was some law that they had to provide the local HDs.

I can't say for sure, but I thought there was some law that they had to provide the local HDs.

You may be referring to the must-carry rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must-carry), or the digital must-carry rule, but I don't believe it extends to HD channels, at least not yet.

Upon second look, I'm finding conflicting information on this. It's actually very interesting. If somebody else (moyekj?) knows, please post, but I'll keep looking and re-post shortly...

edit: it appears they are required to. Pay particular attention to the first paragraph, starting with "QAM-based HD programming..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAM_tuner

I can't say for sure, but I thought there was some law that they had to provide the local HDs.

They do carry the local HD channels, they just don't want to support Limited Basic subscriber when it comes to these channels. If the HD channels I am able to receive are "not from COX", is someone inject them into COX system? :confused:


Back to my original question. If I want to move to Digital Cable for two HDTV's and two analog TV's, do I pay $55.99 (Digital gateway + standard service) + $0.50 (additional digital tv outlet) if both of my HDTV's have QAM turner? Or do I have to get two Digital Cable Receiver & Remote at $5.50 each. I don't need any DVR service because I never record anything anyway.
Thank you again for all the responds.

They do carry the local HD channels, they just don't want to support Limited Basic subscriber when it comes to these channels. If the HD channels I am able to receive are "not from COX", is someone inject them into COX system? :confused:


Back to my original question. If I want to move to Digital Cable for two HDTV's and two analog TV's, do I pay $55.99 (Digital gateway + standard service) + $0.50 (additional digital tv outlet) if both of my HDTV's have QAM turner? Or do I have to get two Digital Cable Receiver & Remote at $5.50 each. I don't need any DVR service because I never record anything anyway.
Thank you again for all the responds.

It depends on what channels you want, but I'll assume you want access to any (or all) of the digital cable channels. If that's the case, you will need a STB (set-top box) at each location, so the $5.50 x4 (unless you want a cable card, and then it is $1.99 for each card). You will also have to pay the $55.99 and $.50 for each additional location, so x3.

Also, I don't know which channels are currently available with a QAM tuner, but this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15172762#post15172762) is the most recent and comprehensive one I could find. If you are okay with just those channels (or whichever are currently available), you could get by on your QAM TVs without the STB fee and $.50 additional digital TV outlet fee.

Because an amp COX put in years ago went out today, a tech came out to fix my snowy picture. He removed the amp, replalce all the connectors at entry to the house. Afterward, my "analog" channels are clearer than before, but my Panny still failed to detect 2.1, 5.1 and 9.1. Didn't talk to him about PSIP because he told me if I got HD channels on my Limited Basic subscription, they are "not from COX".

Unsurprisingly your Cox tech doesn't know sh*t.

It depends on what channels you want, but I'll assume you want access to any (or all) of the digital cable channels. If that's the case, you will need a STB (set-top box) at each location, so the $5.50 x4 (unless you want a cable card, and then it is $1.99 for each card). You will also have to pay the $55.99 and $.50 for each additional location, so x3.

Also, I don't know which channels are currently available with a QAM tuner, but this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15172762#post15172762) is the most recent and comprehensive one I could find. If you are okay with just those channels (or whichever are currently available), you could get by on your QAM TVs without the STB fee and $.50 additional digital TV outlet fee.

I think I have some ideas on their pricing now. Using CNN as an example. If I don't get the set top box, I should still able to get CNN on all my TV but they will be in 4:3 aspect ratio and will not be in HD, right? If that is the case, I think I can get by with one or two STB instead of 4.

I think I have some ideas on their pricing now. Using CNN as an example. If I don't get the set top box, I should still able to get CNN on all my TV but they will be in 4:3 aspect ratio and will not be in HD, right? If that is the case, I think I can get by with one or two STB instead of 4.

Correct. With just Standard Service, you can get CNN SD (channel 14), as well as all channels 72 and under (you also get a few in the 90s, but not much there unless you like to watch the TV Guide scroll or watch endless hours of government debates) - and you don't need a STB. I'm assuming all your TVs are able to tune in these cable channels, but most sold in the last...quite a few years actually...can.

According to the Orange County Register, Cox in RSM is adding the following channels on July 28:


FX HD 717
BET HD 748
MTV HD 749
VH1 HD 750
Spike HD 752
CMT HD 759
Comedy HD 760
Nickelodeon HD 770
Cartoon Network HD 771


Because of the additions, Cox is moving other channels around:

Channel Name Old Ch# New Ch#
Versus HD 717 765
Universal HD 744 788
Palladia HD 749 789
CNBC HD 750 744

Nice TABLE formatting Steve, didn't know about that one. Of all those channels FX is the only one I watch so the only one that interests me. Will be nice to see one of my favorite shows "Rescue Me" in HD, even though usually it's Cox's version of "HD Lite".

According to the Orange County Register, Cox in RSM is adding the following channels on July 28:


FX HD 717
BET HD 748
MTV HD 749
VH1 HD 750
Spike HD 752
CMT HD 759
Comedy HD 760
Nickelodeon HD 770
Cartoon Network HD 771


Because of the additions, Cox is moving other channels around:

Channel Name Old Ch# New Ch#
Versus HD 717 765
Universal HD 744 788
Palladia HD 749 789
CNBC HD 750 744

If they are coming to RSM, then it's going to all of Cox OC. I'm sure some of those channels will make some happy, but alas, no Fox News HD...

Nice TABLE formatting Steve, didn't know about that one. Of all those channels FX is the only one I watch so the only one that interests me. Will be nice to see one of my favorite shows "Rescue Me" in HD, even though usually it's Cox's version of "HD Lite".

Cox has had Rescue Me in HD-ish in their On Demand area for a month or so. Much better than the SD feed, even if it is only HD-ish.

According to the Orange County Register, Cox in RSM is adding the following channels on July 28:


FX HD 717
BET HD 748
MTV HD 749
VH1 HD 750
Spike HD 752
CMT HD 759
Comedy HD 760
Nickelodeon HD 770
Cartoon Network HD 771


Because of the additions, Cox is moving other channels around:

Channel Name Old Ch# New Ch#
Versus HD 717 765
Universal HD 744 788
Palladia HD 749 789
CNBC HD 750 744

Thanks for the info Steve. Not the best selection but still nice to see additions coming.

According to the Orange County Register, Cox in RSM is adding the following channels on July 28:


FX HD 717
BET HD 748
MTV HD 749
VH1 HD 750
Spike HD 752
CMT HD 759
Comedy HD 760
Nickelodeon HD 770
Cartoon Network HD 771


Because of the additions, Cox is moving other channels around:

Channel Name Old Ch# New Ch#
Versus HD 717 765
Universal HD 744 788
Palladia HD 749 789
CNBC HD 750 744

----------------
Thanks for all the information on this forum. Its been most helpful in my selection for TV/cable provider.

Reading all the comments on Cox DVR and Tivo box problems, Cox local channel problems, and Cox cable card problems. I was considering signing up with Cox in the Laguna Niguel / Mission Viejo area. But now it looks to me like Dish network and Direct TV give a lot more HD channels with a significantly much better 2-tuner/DVR box, and way better pricing.

My neighbor showed me his Dish system. One big advantage with Dish is you can seamlessly integrate your external antenna in with their set top box. My neighbor did this with a cheapo indoor amplified antenna. It works great. The Dish box even scans the skies. It integrates the 'found channels' program guide data in with their own Dish program guide. There is no funny business with channel numbering like Cox does. Channel 5.1 HD and 5.2 SD are listed right next to their own 5.0 HD listing. Dish doesn't provide Ch 28.1 HD or 28.2,3,4; but the external antenna does it aok. Ditto for CH 58.0,1,2,3,4 are all right next to each other in the guide.

As for external DVR hard drives - my neighbor has had that on his Dish box for years. Its a USB interface. However, Dish charges $40 to "enable" it.

Am I missing something? Why doesn't Cox do any of this?

What Tivo box problems are you talking about specifically? Overall they have been very reliable for me the last 3 years. Dish does seem like a pretty good choice from a DVR standpoint, except that losing litigation to Tivo raises some concerns about that. Doubtful it will ever result in Dish DVRs being forced off the market, but it may mean increasing costs to Dish to provide DVR service which may be passed on to consumers.
Leaving DVR out of picture I probably would have gone with DirecTV since they are the clear winner in picture quality AND selection these days (not to mention the exclusive sports packages), however their DVR is pretty crappy from what I hear so Dish is probably the best compromise.
If only FIOS was available that would be the Nirvana service provider for me...

Cox still has some advantages compared to satellite I have to mention to be fair:
* Can use standalone TiVo DVRs with their service. Jumping to satellite and their closed systems means you are stuck with the service provider DVR and no chance to use a standalone DVR.
* Internet service (especially when bundled at a discount with TV service)
* Still providing analog channels means you can still hook up that 3rd, 4th, 5th TV in the house without need for a cable box or cablecard and associated fees. (Then again this is also a disadvantage since it takes away a lot of bandwidth which could be used to provide better HD quality).
* No long term commitments

Oh boy fellas. Instead of Multi-room viewing, picture-in-picture, or external hard drive support Cox is now offering something that we all have been clamoring for.... TV Caller ID. :rolleyes::mad::rolleyes::mad:

Oh boy fellas. Instead of Multi-room viewing, picture-in-picture, or external hard drive support Cox is now offering something that we all have been clamoring for.... TV Caller ID. :rolleyes::mad::rolleyes::mad:

Yes, I saw that. In this day when more and more are turning off home phone service and going all-cell phone, Cox comes up with the novel boring idea of caller ID through the TV. God, I remember that being available on certain TVs (and external devices) years ago.

Oh well, at least MTV HD and VH1 HD (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/06/28/why-arent-mtv-hds-music-videos-in-high-definition/) are coming....:rolleyes:

Cox still has some advantages compared to satellite I have to mention to be fair:
* Can use standalone TiVo DVRs with their service. Jumping to satellite and their closed systems means you are stuck with the service provider DVR and no chance to use a standalone DVR.
* Internet service (especially when bundled at a discount with TV service)
* Still providing analog channels means you can still hook up that 3rd, 4th, 5th TV in the house without need for a cable box or cablecard and associated fees. (Then again this is also a disadvantage since it takes away a lot of bandwidth which could be used to provide better HD quality).
* No long term commitments

I would also add that there is little-to-no upfront costs with cable. Even if there is a setup fee, it doesn't take much persuasion to get it waived. Many of the DVR subsidies for satellite are only good for the first box, so there may be a sum of upfront fees to pay - on top of the monthly rental fees.

According to the Orange County Register, Cox in RSM is adding the following channels on July 28...

Here (http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/01/cox-cable-adding-9-hd-channels-in-orange-county/16893/) is the official release. The OC Register says that they are all Viacom channels, but I know FX isn't. There are a few other tidbits worth reading about, particularly the ranking of Cox (second to last) in terms of number of channels. Well, good thing that the Cox HD channel quality is so good. :eek:

Yes, I saw that. In this day when more and more are turning off home phone service and going all-cell phone, Cox comes up with the novel boring idea of caller ID through the TV. God, I remember that being available on certain TVs (and external devices) years ago.

Oh well, at least MTV HD and VH1 HD (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/06/28/why-arent-mtv-hds-music-videos-in-high-definition/) are coming....:rolleyes:

Agreed. Probably because ATT U-verse offers this and they need a "new" whiz-bang feature for their marketing department.

External HDD, online/phone scheduling, and multi-room DVR (in that order) will make me a very happy customer once again.

Ooooh, I sense that us TivoHD/cablecard users are getting screwed out of those new HD channels...

Worth a read, particularly the parts about ABC HD.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/307399-Broadcasters_HD_Squeeze_Play.php


Perhaps the best example of the current HD squeeze is Live Well HD, a new high-definition, lifestyle-focused subchannel launched by the 10 ABC owned-and-operated stations in late April. ABC O&Os like WABC New York had already been transmitting two 480i standard-def subchannels—generally a local news channel and an AccuWeather channel—alongside their primary 720p HD stream, with no major impact to HD picture quality. But when ABC stations replaced the news channel with Live Well HD and began transmitting it as a second 720p HD program stream at the same time they were broadcasting National Basketball Association playoff games, the primary HD picture suffered significantly.

Viewer complaints flooded into stations as well as enthusiast Websites such as the AV Science Forum...

Since then, ABC engineers have tweaked the compression parameters on their Harris NetVX encoders, devoting more bits to the primary HD channel and reducing the bits that Live Well HD gets. From watching WABC, these changes appear to have eliminated major problems on the primary ABC program stream. But Live Well HD is still subject to frequent compression artifacts. Moreover, many HD purists say ABC's HD primary service is now significantly “softer” than the HD fare from CBS, NBC and Fox.

Yes it seems most 60 min programs I record on KABCDT are averaging around 5GB/hour which is roughly 11 Mbps that the article mentions is the target average bit rate for the primary HD channel. Still not as good as it used to be before the second HD sub-channel was added...
Note that the change seemed to happen around mid to late May time frame as I posted in post # 5028 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16451978#post16451978) which shows a dramatically improving trend for recording sizes over a small period in time.
Well KABC must have heard the complaints as the quality of KABCDT has improved a little the last few days. It's still not back to what it used to be but artifacting is now reduced when I watched a couple of shows. Here's some sizes for shows I still have saved that show an improving trend over the last several days (these all from the Cox 707 feed):
5/12 Dancing With the Stars - 62mins, 4.92GB
5/10 Brothers&Sisters - 59mins, 4.09GB
5/10 Desperate Housewives - 60mins, 3.74GB
5/07 Grey's Anatomy = 62mins, 3.3GB
4/30 Grey's Anatomy = 61mins, 2.55GB <----- WOW, this should be illegal!!

Also, the Lakers last Sunday game was ~14GB for 3 hours which is 4.67GB/hour. Not great but much better than the previous week on ABC.

So it's not what it used to be but is a little better...

Yes it seems most 60 min programs I record on KABCDT are averaging around 5GB/hour which is roughly 11 Mbps that the article mentions is the target average bit rate for the primary HD channel. Still not as good as it used to be before the second HD sub-channel was added...
Note that the change seemed to happen around mid to late May time frame as I posted in post # 5028 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16451978#post16451978) which shows a dramatically improving trend for recording sizes over a small period in time.

Yes, it has improved, but this line says it all: "Moreover, many HD purists say ABC's HD primary service is now significantly “softer” than the HD fare from CBS, NBC and Fox."

Yeah, you just have to sit further away from the TV these days to not notice artifacts, and that goes for many Cox HD channels these days. Plus my kids managed to make a hairline crack across the middle of my 47" LCD screen playing ball inside the house, so now I have even more reason to sit further away not to notice that. My wife actually knew about it and kept it secret hoping I wouldn't notice, but alas I noticed it pretty quickly. It's not bad enough to warrant a new TV purchase yet but I have a good excuse to buy one now. ;)

Yeah, you just have to sit further away from the TV these days to not notice artifacts, and that goes for many Cox HD channels these days. Plus my kids managed to make a hairline crack across the middle of my 47" LCD screen playing ball inside the house, so now I have even more reason to sit further away not to notice that. My wife actually knew about it and kept it secret hoping I wouldn't notice, but alas I noticed it pretty quickly. It's not bad enough to warrant a new TV purchase yet but I have a good excuse to buy one now. ;)

Like we wouldn't notice these things. :eek:

Hmmmm, maybe I could pay my son to "...[play] ball inside the house..."

Don't hold your breath on any non-satellite alternatives to Cox:
http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/06/att-u-verse-tv-comes-to-a-halt-in-irvine-oc-dana-point-newport-beach/17113/

Maybe it's time for residents to get involved and start insisting our cities stop this nonsense.

Don't hold your breath on any non-satellite alternatives to Cox:
http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/06/att-u-verse-tv-comes-to-a-halt-in-irvine-oc-dana-point-newport-beach/17113/

Maybe it's time for residents to get involved and start insisting our cities stop this nonsense. That's pretty bad. If even AT&T can't setup TV service in AT&T territory forget about FIOS ever getting a chance.

That is pretty bad.

(moyekj, what do you think the chances are of cable card users getting the new HD channels?)

Don't hold your breath on any non-satellite alternatives to Cox:
http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/06/att-u-verse-tv-comes-to-a-halt-in-irvine-oc-dana-point-newport-beach/17113/

Maybe it's time for residents to get involved and start insisting our cities stop this nonsense.

That's pretty bad. If even AT&T can't setup TV service in AT&T territory forget about FIOS ever getting a chance.


Very bad indeed. I'm not a huge fan of U-verse, but I already figured we had a snowball's chance in hell of getting FiOS, so I at least was holding out for U-verse. The Irvine mention is strange, though, as my brother in south Irvine was offered U-verse and turned it down.

Since we are on the topic of OC Register articles and cable cards....

http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/03/more-hd-channels-coming-to-cable-tv-but-tivo-users-impacted/16527/

(moyekj, what do you think the chances are of cable card users getting the new HD channels?) Well there has been several HD channel additions since Switched Digital was deployed in OC already that didn't go switched. According to this (http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/03/more-hd-channels-coming-to-cable-tv-but-tivo-users-impacted/16527/) OC Register article there is something like 90 SDV channels already deployed in OC and so far they have been PPV, foreign language and the more obscure channels. That makes perfect sense since SDV is most effective when there are a lot of times when nobody in a node is watching the SDV channel so that it doesn't need to be sent down the pipe to anyone in the node (a node is typically 300-600 customers in same area, not sure about sizes for Cox OC).
To me most of these HD channel additions lately are already pretty obscure channels that I personally never watch so wouldn't even bother me much if I didn't have access to them. In any case the Tuning Adapter theoretically is going to become available to Cox OC Tivo users sooner or later so I wouldn't worry too much about it. (P.S. There are still no Motorola Tuning Adapters publicly deployed anywhere in the country to my knowledge so Cox OC may be leading the way there).
So far Cox OC seems to have taken a prudent approach to make SDV as transparent as possible to most users so I see no reason why that trend would not continue.

Perhaps a bigger concern for me is that if/when we do get Tuning Adapters that we may find the CCI bits all of a sudden are now enabled preventing Tivo To Go and/or Multi-Room Viewing from working for all but local broadcast channels. There have been reports in Tivo forums that for Cox Arizona customers once they add Tuning Adapter all of a sudden channels that used to be CCI=0 all of a sudden have CCI enabled, so it appears that CCI bits can possibly be set differently for cablecard devices vs. set top boxes. This may even explain why The Rock has been complaining for a while now that he can no longer offload channels via Cox DVR firewire that we can with no problems with our Tivos.

Perhaps a bigger concern for me is that if/when we do get Tuning Adapters that we may find the CCI bits all of a sudden are now enabled preventing Tivo To Go and/or Multi-Room Viewing from working for all but local broadcast channels. There have been reports in Tivo forums that for Cox Arizona customers once they add Tuning Adapter all of a sudden channels that used to be CCI=0 all of a sudden have CCI enabled, so it appears that CCI bits can possibly be set differently for cablecard devices vs. set top boxes. This may even explain why The Rock has been complaining for a while now that he can no longer offload channels via Cox DVR firewire that we can with no problems with our Tivos.

All the more reason that TiVo needs to work out a deal with Cox (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/06/22/tivo-coming-to-time-warner-cable-potentially-lots-of-other-prov/). I realize that would probably mean incorporating the TiVo technology into a Moto (or other manufacturer) box, so those of you who currently have TiVos would be somewhat screwed. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

If the new HD channels do indeed launch to Switched Digital Video which could very well be the case then Cox OC really needs to get the Tuning Adapters deployed. I'd be willing to be a beta tester for Cox OC but I have no idea who to contact to let that be known and I don't want to have to try and explain everything to a CSR.

If the new HD channels do indeed launch to Switched Digital Video which could very well be the case then Cox OC really needs to get the Tuning Adapters deployed. I'd be willing to be a beta tester for Cox OC but I have no idea who to contact to let that be known and I don't want to have to try and explain everything to a CSR.

You would probably have to contact corporate (http://ww2.cox.com/aboutus/orangecounty/contact-us/residential-corporate.cox), unless you can find a local business contact. If you attack it from a business perspective, you may get somewhere. If you deal with technical (CSRs) types...well...you know how far that will get you.

I had to laugh at the bolded above. Haven't we all been (and continue to be) beta testers for Cox?:rolleyes:

What Tivo box problems are you talking about specifically? Overall they have been very reliable for me the last 3 years. Dish does seem like a pretty good choice from a DVR standpoint, except that losing litigation to Tivo raises some concerns about that. Doubtful it will ever result in Dish DVRs being forced off the market, but it may mean increasing costs to Dish to provide DVR service which may be passed on to consumers.
Leaving DVR out of picture I probably would have gone with DirecTV since they are the clear winner in picture quality AND selection these days (not to mention the exclusive sports packages), however their DVR is pretty crappy from what I hear so Dish is probably the best compromise.
If only FIOS was available that would be the Nirvana service provider for me...

Cox still has some advantages compared to satellite I have to mention to be fair:
* Can use standalone TiVo DVRs with their service. Jumping to satellite and their closed systems means you are stuck with the service provider DVR and no chance to use a standalone DVR.
* Internet service (especially when bundled at a discount with TV service)
* Still providing analog channels means you can still hook up that 3rd, 4th, 5th TV in the house without need for a cable box or cablecard and associated fees. (Then again this is also a disadvantage since it takes away a lot of bandwidth which could be used to provide better HD quality).
* No long term commitments

========
Thank you for your reply. Many good points. I have a few additional observations.

By 'Tivo box problems' I was referring to many comments on some people's grief in connecting them, installing them, getting them to work correctly on a Cox cable system.

Also, I agree with you that its nice to be able to buy/use a different mfgr DVR box other than that pushed by the Cable/Satellite provider. But it seems like the cost to buy an external HD Tivo and its monthly fees are not cheap. Besides that, once you buy it - its yours and you may/maynot ever be able to upgrade it.

Next, there is repair inconvenience if it dies. With the Cable/Satellite provider's box, they replace the whole unit pretty quickly - especially since they own it and have plenty of service people in the area. So I think your points are clearly valid, but it boils down to a personal choice on this one.

With regard to Dish's losing lawsuit with Tivo, the OC Register reported awhile back that not all Dish DVR boxes violate the DVR patents - only some do. The Dish 722 model (2 tuner, 1-HD, 1-SD, with 500GB hard drive) was not on the list of violators. And you can easily attach your own external USB hard drive if you want more storage ($40 enable fee). Sounds cheaper than buying and then upgrading a Tivo and on top of that paying monthly fees forever.

One more point on program channel choices:
If you want ALL the local DTV channels in our OC area, you have to have a converter box and an antenna. Cox is severely deficient in this category. The Dish box has a converter and its built-in for free. If one has small kids, the local KLCS station (Ch-58.1,2,3,4) and Local Ch-30.2 have great PBS kids stuff. Even KTLA Ch-5.2 has kids programming in the morning and movies during the rest of the day. Is that available on COX? What if you require Latino programs and want access to several dozen latino DTV channesl/sub-channels? Are ALL of those available with Cox? I think not.

With regard to internet service, I hear that Cox is way overpriced, like its $35/mo?. (I'm not really sure.) They never put into their mailers the standalone cost. I already have ATT DSL and its been great for many years and its lots cheaper than $35. It might be slower, but I'm not a big user of downloading/uploading multi-gig files. A few 15-20 MB files everyday is fine for me.

For landline phone service, I also read in the OC Register a year or two ago that if there is a general area power failure, your Cox phone is dead and your Cox internet is dead. But with ATT DSL, they still use the 50 year old battery backup system on phone lines. So the DSL as well as your land line should still work. Yes, I know that we all have cellphones. But what are ya gonna do when its battery dies and there's no AC to recharge it? Yes, you can go out to your car and use its adapter. But I'd rather feel comfy that my landline was still gonna work in the event of a tragedy - earthquake, fire, whatever. Use of the DSL internet would be a big bonus providing you had a battery backup PC or a laptop with car adapter/charger.

Thanks again for your points. I hope you appreciate mine----

Yeah, you just have to sit further away from the TV these days to not notice artifacts, and that goes for many Cox HD channels these days. Plus my kids managed to make a hairline crack across the middle of my 47" LCD screen playing ball inside the house, so now I have even more reason to sit further away not to notice that. My wife actually knew about it and kept it secret hoping I wouldn't notice, but alas I noticed it pretty quickly. It's not bad enough to warrant a new TV purchase yet but I have a good excuse to buy one now. ;)

OUCH! If it was a plasma, it could have been a biiiiig problem.

With regard to Dish's losing lawsuit with Tivo, the OC Register reported awhile back that not all Dish DVR boxes violate the DVR patents - only some do. The Dish 722 model (2 tuner, 1-HD, 1-SD, with 500GB hard drive) was not on the list of violators.

Agreed that most new DVRs won't be affected, but that's a small consolation to the owners of the some 4 million DVRs (http://www.multichannel.com/article/307334-Dish_Wins_Stay_From_Appeals_Court_On_DVR_Order.php) that will be affected.


With regard to internet service, I hear that Cox is way overpriced, like its $35/mo?. (I'm not really sure.) They never put into their mailers the standalone cost. I already have ATT DSL and its been great for many years and its lots cheaper than $35. It might be slower, but I'm not a big user of downloading/uploading multi-gig files. A few 15-20 MB files everyday is fine for me.

Preferred is actually $45/month, but with a bundled package (internet, TV, and phone), you get about $5/month off, so about $40 month. That is for 9 Mbps down / 768 Kbps up, but many of us get much greater speed. I consistently see 2.6 Mbps up and as high as 22 Mbps down, the former making my Slingbox very happy. I realize others (Moyekj) don't typically see this high of an up speed. That said, AT&T Elite is $35 per month, is lower at 6 Mbps down, and is the same at 768 Kbps up. However, my understanding is that is all you will get for the upload speed. That would render my Slingbox pretty much useless for viewing outside of my home.

I also use Netflix streaming, and a max of 6 Mbps download speed would prove difficult to stream a movie and surf at the same time.


For landline phone service, I also read in the OC Register a year or two ago that if there is a general area power failure, your Cox phone is dead and your Cox internet is dead. But with ATT DSL, they still use the 50 year old battery backup system on phone lines. So the DSL as well as your land line should still work. Yes, I know that we all have cellphones. But what are ya gonna do when its battery dies and there's no AC to recharge it? Yes, you can go out to your car and use its adapter. But I'd rather feel comfy that my landline was still gonna work in the event of a tragedy - earthquake, fire, whatever. Use of the DSL internet would be a big bonus providing you had a battery backup PC or a laptop with car adapter/charger.

Cox also offers a battery backup system. On top of that, unless you own an analog telephone, how are you going to use the phone should the power go out? And for the internet, unless your modem, router, and device are all on battery backup, the internet access won't do you much good.



Not that I'm trying to defend Cox; I just want to make sure others get the full story so they may make an informed decision.

Here's a list of clear QAM channels I see after a channel rescan with the set connected directly to the wall (no cable box). I only have basic+expanded cable, no digital packages.

2-1 KCBS HD
4-1 KNBC HD
4-2 KNBC weather
5-1 KTLA HD
7-1 KABC HD
7-2 LivWel
7-3 KABC weather
9-1 KCAL HD
11-1 KTTV HD
13-1 KCOP HD
26-3 Cox3
26-10 Audio - KLSX
26-69 KTBN (40)
26-88 KABC SD (7)
50-1 KOCE HD
50-2 KOCE 2nd chnl
82-12 Audio - KRTH
82-63 KOCE-SD (50)
82-66 KDOC-SD (56)
82-80 KCOP-SD (13)
82-82 KNBC-SD (4)
82-84 KCET-SD (28)
90-11 Audio - KYSR
90-31 PubAcc-SD
90-67 KPXN-SD (30)
90-70 KLCS-SD (58)
90-83 KTLA-SD (5)
90-85 KCAL-SD (9)
90-86 KCBS-SD (2)
90-87 KTTV-SD (11)
98-5 MV City
98-12 Sdlbk Col-SD
99-427 KVEA SD (52)
102-1-27 Audio - radio stations
111-161 - KPXN HD (30-1)
127-915 KCET HD (28-1)

Changes since my last posting of this list last November:
Deleted:
22-45 TBS
109-12 Sports On Demand ad
113-91 Chinese
114-9 On Demand ad
116-9 Audio - Music Choice
127-332 CSPAN3
Added:
99-427 KVEA SD (52)
111-161 - KPXN HD (30-1)

Agreed that most new DVRs won't be affected, but that's a small consolation to the owners of the some 4 million DVRs (http://www.multichannel.com/article/307334-Dish_Wins_Stay_From_Appeals_Court_On_DVR_Order.php) that will be affected.




Preferred is actually $45/month, but with a bundled package (internet, TV, and phone), you get about $5/month off, so about $40 month. That is for 9 Mbps down / 768 Kbps up, but many of us get much greater speed. I consistently see 2.6 Mbps up and as high as 22 Mbps down, the former making my Slingbox very happy. I realize others (Moyekj) don't typically see this high of an up speed. That said, AT&T Elite is $35 per month, is lower at 6 Mbps down, and is the same at 768 Kbps up. However, my understanding is that is all you will get for the upload speed. That would render my Slingbox pretty much useless for viewing outside of my home.

I also use Netflix streaming, and a max of 6 Mbps download speed would prove difficult to stream a movie and surf at the same time.




Cox also offers a battery backup system. On top of that, unless you own an analog telephone, how are you going to use the phone should the power go out? And for the internet, unless your modem, router, and device are all on battery backup, the internet access won't do you much good.



Not that I'm trying to defend Cox; I just want to make sure others get the full story so they may make an informed decision.

==========

OK - thanks for the battery backup info. Sounds like you are saying that you have to pay Cox extra for that which ATT lines have had for eons for free. Is that right? And true you do need battery backup on your modem and PC/Laptop. I just assumed many people already do that these days - who wants the Wrath of Winblows if Edison or a nature tragedy pulls the plug.

Re the analog phone on ATT lines - very true, but thats why every earthquake prepared home should have at least one of those available -- which I do. The nifty multi-room digital phones are nice, but frankly will be of no use with Cox or ATT

Re cost of Internet - I thought I was paying $20/mo for the extra cheap service. Sorry but I admit I really don't know what the charge is since my wife's biz gets/pays that bill. Also, I'm not too sure i concur on ATT bandwidth speeds. With ATT, if I upload a file, I have no clue what the transfer rate is but the upload is clearly snail speed. But for download I tested a 6.5MB file. My Mozilla Download window sez "150 KB/sec" It goes pretty fast so I think KB is "Kbytes". That should be 1.2 Mbits/sec. Not blazing fast, but you get what you pay for with transfer speeds.

Anyway - many thanks for your input while I decide on Dish vs ATT vs Cox for my move into Mission Viejo. So far, Cox appears to be last on my list.

Another buddy of mine has Cox internet but has Dish TV. When he moved in, the Dish installer did a great job of hooking it all up. Later the next week, when Cox finally decided to arrive, the installer messed up the Dish installation as best as he could. He even physically cut off cable connectors! He had to be p.o.'d because Cox TV service was not ordered.

I also hear that Cox call in Cust. Svc is extra poor (but who has good call-in service these days?). We read all the time in the paper about all cable companies in the country having poor service, poor reputations, and losing alot of customers to Satellite.

...Changes since my last posting of this list last November:

Deleted:
22-45 TBS
109-12 Sports On Demand ad
113-91 Chinese
114-9 On Demand ad
116-9 Audio - Music Choice
127-332 CSPAN3
Added:
99-427 KVEA SD (52)
111-161 - KPXN HD (30-1)

Thanks for the update! :)

==========

OK - thanks for the battery backup info. Sounds like you are saying that you have to pay Cox extra for that which ATT lines have had for eons for free. Is that right? And true you do need battery backup on your modem and PC/Laptop. I just assumed many people already do that these days - who wants the Wrath of Winblows if Edison or a nature tragedy pulls the plug..

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think you have to pay for it. You may learn more about it here (http://ww2.cox.com/residential/orangecounty/phone/answers-about-phone.cox).

Re the analog phone on ATT lines - very true, but thats why every earthquake prepared home should have at least one of those available -- which I do. The nifty multi-room digital phones are nice, but frankly will be of no use with Cox or ATT

Exactly!

Re cost of Internet - I thought I was paying $20/mo for the extra cheap service. Sorry but I admit I really don't know what the charge is since my wife's biz gets/pays that bill.

Yes, the AT&T High Speed Internet Basic service is $19.95 per month, but that is for 768 Kbps (kilobits per second) down and 384 Kbps up. Perhaps you have the next package up, Express DSL, and get some kind of bundle discount (wireless?) as that is $25 per month, but goes up to 1.5 Mbps (megabits per second).


Also, I'm not too sure i concur on ATT bandwidth speeds. With ATT, if I upload a file, I have no clue what the transfer rate is but the upload is clearly snail speed. But for download I tested a 6.5MB file. My Mozilla Download window sez "150 KB/sec" It goes pretty fast so I think KB is "Kbytes". That should be 1.2 Mbits/sec. Not blazing fast, but you get what you pay for with transfer speeds.

Yes, upload is typically less than the download speed, unless you have a full T-1 or greater, which are typically leased by businesses. See my comments above on the AT&T packages, but, yes, 150 KBps (kilobytes per second) is 1.2 Mbps (or mbps, but both mean megabits per second). With 1.2 Mbps, you would not do well with any type of decent video streaming, but audio should be fine. With that up speed, however, a Slingbox is not in your future. ;)

By the way, here (http://www.numion.com/Calculators/Units.html) is a great site for bandwidth unit conversions, and here (http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/) is a great site for testing your download and upload speeds. For the latter, choose Los Angeles.


I also hear that Cox call in Cust. Svc is extra poor (but who has good call-in service these days?). We read all the time in the paper about all cable companies in the country having poor service, poor reputations, and losing alot of customers to Satellite.

Yes, the level 1 CSRs are not great, but if you escalate, it gets a LITTLE better.

==========
...
Re cost of Internet - I thought I was paying $20/mo for the extra cheap service. Sorry but I admit I really don't know what the charge is since my wife's biz gets/pays that bill. Also, I'm not too sure i concur on ATT bandwidth speeds. With ATT, if I upload a file, I have no clue what the transfer rate is but the upload is clearly snail speed. But for download I tested a 6.5MB file. My Mozilla Download window sez "150 KB/sec" It goes pretty fast so I think KB is "Kbytes". That should be 1.2 Mbits/sec. Not blazing fast, but you get what you pay for with transfer speeds.

I used to have AT&T's 6Mb DSL for couple of years. When they advertise 6Mb, you don't get 6Mb even at the best situation. All you get is about 80~90% of it.


I also hear that Cox call in Cust. Svc is extra poor (but who has good call-in service these days?). We read all the time in the paper about all cable companies in the country having poor service, poor reputations, and losing alot of customers to Satellite.

I have not have to call Cox abut HSI so I don't have experience with them. I did call in about TV service about a week ago. The call was handled properly and a tech was sent out the same day. Can't ask for more than that. For the two years I had AT&T DSL, I have to call in about every 3~4 months because they messed up my "profile". When they messed up the profile, my download speed is capped at 1.5Mb instead of the 6Mb I signed up. If anyone want to learn how to provide bad tech support, give AT&T DSL tech suppport a call.

I'm getting ready to go on vacation out of state so I'm pulling a bunch of HD shows from Tivos to my laptop (and editing out commercials). Pretty sad that most 1 hour 1080i shows are 5GB or less and most of the ABC 720p 1 hour shows are 3.6GB or less. Used to be more along the lines of 7-8GB for 1080i & 5-6GB for 720p. 'HD' has totally lost its original clout...

http://connectedhome2go.com/2009/07/13/motorola-mpeg-4-set-tops-in-the-wild/

Highlights of these boxes:
* mpeg4 (H.264 AKA AVC) decoding support
* 1GHz tuners
* DVR boxes have 250-320GB built in hard drives
* Built in DOCSIS 2.0 modems

Hopefully this means the transition to mpeg4 broadcasting will happen sometime next decade...

http://connectedhome2go.com/2009/07/13/motorola-mpeg-4-set-tops-in-the-wild/

Highlights of these boxes:
* mpeg4 (H.264 AKA AVC) decoding support
* 1GHz tuners
* DVR boxes have 250-320GB built in hard drives
* Built in DOCSIS 2.0 modems

Hopefully this means the transition to mpeg4 broadcasting will happen sometime next decade...

Thanks, Moyekj. That looks at least somewhat promising. Of course, whatever compression advantage Cox gets from MPEG-4 will used to cram together more channels, and we'll eventually be right back where we are now.

Cox has mentioned in past press releases that 1GHz and MPEG4 kind of work well together. Before these latest boxes most tuners were limited to 850MHz and MPEG2 decoding only. Now that Cox OC (and most other areas) has expanded all nodes to 1GHz capability which would require plant upgrades anyway to take advantage for TV transmissions then those upgrades will likely include MPEG4 capability as well. So I wouldn't be at all surprised that if/when MPEG4 is first deployed by Cox it will be in the 850MHz-1GHz bandwidth region and probably using SDV as well. But this transition is probably years away still...

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2009/07/06/daily13.html

Crossing my fingers in hopes of most of those additions coming to the OC HD lineup soon, or at least being announced...

I'm getting ready to go on vacation out of state so I'm pulling a bunch of HD shows from Tivos to my laptop (and editing out commercials). Pretty sad that most 1 hour 1080i shows are 5GB or less and most of the ABC 720p 1 hour shows are 3.6GB or less. Used to be more along the lines of 7-8GB for 1080i & 5-6GB for 720p. 'HD' has totally lost its original clout...

I'm not intending to get too political about this, but if we had a real FCC that was actually responsive TO the public instead of TO the networks/cable/satellite companies, then the FCC would declare what IS/IS NOT the definition of "HD". The FCC could enforce truth in advertising labelling of every transmission just like they do with their "TV-PG" etc content label requirements. I wonder why corporate greed always wins?

Here's a list of clear QAM channels I see after a channel rescan with the set connected directly to the wall (no cable box). I only have basic+expanded cable, no digital packages.

2-1 KCBS HD
4-1 KNBC HD
4-2 KNBC weather
5-1 KTLA HD
7-1 KABC HD
7-2 LivWel
7-3 KABC weather
9-1 KCAL HD
11-1 KTTV HD
13-1 KCOP HD
26-3 Cox3
26-10 Audio - KLSX
26-69 KTBN (40)
26-88 KABC SD (7)
50-1 KOCE HD
50-2 KOCE 2nd chnl
82-12 Audio - KRTH
82-63 KOCE-SD (50)
82-66 KDOC-SD (56)
82-80 KCOP-SD (13)
82-82 KNBC-SD (4)
82-84 KCET-SD (28)
90-11 Audio - KYSR
90-31 PubAcc-SD
90-67 KPXN-SD (30)
90-70 KLCS-SD (58)
90-83 KTLA-SD (5)
90-85 KCAL-SD (9)
90-86 KCBS-SD (2)
90-87 KTTV-SD (11)
98-5 MV City
98-12 Sdlbk Col-SD
99-427 KVEA SD (52)
102-1-27 Audio - radio stations
111-161 - KPXN HD (30-1)
127-915 KCET HD (28-1)

Changes since my last posting of this list last November:
Deleted:
22-45 TBS
109-12 Sports On Demand ad
113-91 Chinese
114-9 On Demand ad
116-9 Audio - Music Choice
127-332 CSPAN3
Added:
99-427 KVEA SD (52)
111-161 - KPXN HD (30-1)

Thats it? You paid for 'expanded' service and all you get is a few local channels and music? You can get all that and more for free with a TV antenna. So much for the Cox Advantage -- having extra Digital TVs in the house but still requiring a Cox cable box to get what you paid for. Quite a racket.

Yes you could get a cable card installed per TV (I read that it costs only $2/mo). But then you'd lose all of the genuine local channels that the antenna brings in. Watch free movies on CH-5.2. Next Cox would most likely require more fees like digital gateways, digital programming enables, network access fee and who knows what else extra $$$. And then they have the gall to have no program guide whatsoever? -- not even the cheapo type found on other cable systems around the country? Very very disappointing. Why do the cities allow them to do that?

I'm not intending to get too political about this, but if we had a real FCC that was actually responsive TO the public instead of TO the networks/cable/satellite companies, then the FCC would declare what IS/IS NOT the definition of "HD". The FCC could enforce truth in advertising labelling of every transmission just like they do with their "TV-PG" etc content label requirements. I wonder why corporate greed always wins?

Well, that'd be nice and stuff, but the FCC is responsible for majority of the lack of quality. What networks and viewers were hoping for when Analog was dropped was for better and stronger Digital signals. Instead, the strength of signal/bandwidth limit that could be sent out via Digital was lowered for most stations, and left the same for the rest.

Thanks, FCC.

However, with ABC, I think it's partially due to the fact that they have, what is it, 4 or 5 digital channels?

Thats it? You paid for 'expanded' service and all you get is a few local channels and music? You can get all that and more for free with a TV antenna. So much for the Cox Advantage -- having extra Digital TVs in the house but still requiring a Cox cable box to get what you paid for. Quite a racket.

I'm sure he also gets all the expanded basic channels (14 - 72: CNN, ESPN, MTV, SyFy, etc.). He was just pointing out the QAM channels he picks up.

Well, that'd be nice and stuff, but the FCC is responsible for majority of the lack of quality. What networks and viewers were hoping for when Analog was dropped was for better and stronger Digital signals. Instead, the strength of signal/bandwidth limit that could be sent out via Digital was lowered for most stations, and left the same for the rest.

Thanks, FCC.

However, with ABC, I think it's partially due to the fact that they have, what is it, 4 or 5 digital channels?

Where did you read (or hear) about the bolded part above?

edit: on that note, what about the red portion? My understanding is that the "lack of quality" is more attributed to the networks trying to cram in as many "HD" channels as possible into an allocation better suited for two.

For the red portion, quality depends on all sorts of things, and having to weaken the signal weakens the picture on the receivers end. It's hard to actually put that into words and describe it and have it make sense in text, but basically by not allowing networks the bandwidth they need, they have to compress quality to send it out. And yes, as I mentioned at the end, with ABC, it's also because they love to jam in multiple stations that nobody ever watches, like a third weather channel.

I forget where I initially read about the FCC lowering the digital signal, not by much but certainly not raising it, I'm quite positive it was engadgethd.com. It's mentioned all the time on some radio talk shows such as the Harry Shearer's Le Show and Leo Laportte the Tech Guy (if you're familiar with them). I'm looking for it, all I can find are articles briefly mentioning how the Digital signals are less than that of Analog, which is a fact. It's ridiculous because it's entirely illogical, why would something ~6.75 times the resolution (480i vs 1080i) be given less signal strength?

For the red portion, quality depends on all sorts of things, and having to weaken the signal weakens the picture on the receivers end. It's hard to actually put that into words and describe it and have it make sense in text, but basically by not allowing networks the bandwidth they need, they have to compress quality to send it out. And yes, as I mentioned at the end, with ABC, it's also because they love to jam in multiple stations that nobody ever watches, like a third weather channel.

I forget where I initially read about the FCC lowering the digital signal, not by much but certainly not raising it, I'm quite positive it was engadgethd.com. It's mentioned all the time on some radio talk shows such as the Harry Shearer's Le Show and Leo Laportte the Tech Guy (if you're familiar with them). I'm looking for it, all I can find are articles briefly mentioning how the Digital signals are less than that of Analog, which is a fact. It's ridiculous because it's entirely illogical, why would something ~6.75 times the resolution (480i vs 1080i) be given less signal strength?

Thanks, Travis. I wouldn't doubt what you are saying about the weakened digital signal is true. I just like to see the sources, so I, too, can let others know.

As for the FCC being responsible for the majority of the lack of quality, I just wanted to point out that word "majority" may be a little strong. I'm confident the networks are contributing to this, too, as are the carriers. I wish it was just one entity responsible, because then we could all write in and gripe about it. Unfortunately, it is just the nature of the business/technology. Eventually, it will get resolved, but it could be a while.

Hello, I haven't been on this forum for quite a while, but here is my situation:

I have a Cox DVR (the 120GB) that works very well with my Panny plasma in the bedroom. I am going to be installing a plasma in the living room and am considering going to an all Tivo system in the house with cable cards. However, comma, reading the posts here gives me the impression that there is still some debate as to which is better. The only drawback with the Cox DVR that I see is the inability to increase storage space and transfer shows somewhere else. At this point I am thinking of staying with Cox DVRs, go with what I know works.

Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated.

Hello, I haven't been on this forum for quite a while, but here is my situation:

I have a Cox DVR (the 120GB) that works very well with my Panny plasma in the bedroom. I am going to be installing a plasma in the living room and am considering going to an all Tivo system in the house with cable cards. However, comma, reading the posts here gives me the impression that there is still some debate as to which is better. The only drawback with the Cox DVR that I see is the inability to increase storage space and transfer shows somewhere else. At this point I am thinking of staying with Cox DVRs, go with what I know works.

Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated.
I don't think there is any debate on which DVR is better. Here's a fairly recent post highlighting some differences. The biggest issue is especially in the short term the Cox DVR is a cheaper solution since there are no upfront hardware costs involved. Over the long run though you can argue that Tivo is cheaper if you keep it for 3+ years, and since the feature set is so much richer it is no contest in my mind.
One final factor to keep in mind however is Cox OC has been deploying many channels under SDV and it could be the upcoming HD channel additions will go SDV as well. Supposedly Cox OC should be making tuning adapters available for free to Tivo users at some point, but I've not heard when that may be the case, so for now you can't receive any SDV channels with series 3 Tivo boxes.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16614867#post16614867

Here's a fairly recent post highlighting some differences.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16614867#post16614867

Hey Moyekj. Perhaps you could edit your post and remove this one line-item from the list. ;)

* Can customize the guide channels to be only those you care about

Thank you for your comments! Much appreciated.

For me the final kick was simply capacity. As much as I like all the other things that TiVo can do (and I've been using many of them regularly) it all came down to the fact that I was able to buy a pre-upgraded TiVo that fit 117 hours of HD, as opposed to the less than 15 hours I was getting on my Cox DVR.

I bought a second, non-upgraded TiVo HD for my bedroom (keeping in mind that I can transfer most shows between the boxes) and I sent the cable box back with the cable card guy. I haven't missed the cable box for a second. (Well, I take that back. I do miss the clock. But that's it.)

And even with the extra upfront outlay of money, my Cox bill should be going down by about $15 a month, which just makes me generally pleased.

For me the final kick was simply capacity. As much as I like all the other things that TiVo can do (and I've been using many of them regularly) it all came down to the fact that I was able to buy a pre-upgraded TiVo that fit 117 hours of HD, as opposed to the less than 15 hours I was getting on my Cox DVR.

Okay, realizing I am in the minority, I have to ask. How do you find time to watch the 117 hours of programming? I find if I don't watch my programming often, it grows in to an unmanageable beast.

Having less recording time forces me to not only be selective, but also to regularly watch the shows I've recorded. I can see archiving programming on to a separate drive, but I sure hope you aren't using the TiVo as a place to store important programming. Hard drives can and do crash from time to time.

Okay, realizing I am in the minority, I have to ask. How do you find time to watch the 117 hours of programming? I find if I don't watch my programming often, it grows in to an unmanageable beast.

Having less recording time forces me to not only be selective, but also to regularly watch the shows I've recorded. I can see archiving programming on to a separate drive, but I sure hope you aren't using the TiVo as a place to store important programming. Hard drives can and do crash from time to time.

For me, it's the live sporting events that kill the Cox DVR. I like auto racing, but a single NASCAR race can be 4 hours, plus an extra hour to tag on in case of delays. That's almost 30% of the box capacity for a single event. My son likes Soccer, so he has his shows to record, and my daughter has her shows. The live sporting events I can watch fairly fast, since I don't need all the pre-race talk, and I fast foward through yellow flags and such. While I'm guessing 117 hours is way more than I need, the 18 or so I get from Cox isn't working well at all with my family needs.

Yes, as an NFL fan with Cox DVR I couldn't record even 3 games on Sunday with the extra hour padding without losing pretty much everything else that was recorded. Also, if you happen to go on vacation for a couple of weeks and can't watch as you go there is not enough room to record everything. I do watch as I go as well and so far 2 DVRs with 250GB each have been sufficient for my needs, but back with 120GB and the 160GB were just not sufficient.
The other nice thing is being able to pull recordings from DVR to your PC hard drive and editing out recordings and watching them while on the road. I'm on vacation out of state now and have 20 HD shows with commercials already edited out ready for some night time viewing.

I was at a friend's house, and, he didn't know you could set the box to stretch 4:3 content (if for some weird reason you needed to...), and instead they set their tv to Wide-Zoom.

soo, on widescreen, HD programming, it's zooming in showing more artifacts and contradicting the point of HD, cutting stuff off of all of the sides, and stretching it. I don't understand why.

So I have always been vocal on my hatred when it comes to onscreen graphics but I've seen a couple that take the cake. In the past week or so I have seen programs on TBS HD and Lifetime HD were the graphics literally reach the center of the screen and remain there for the entire program. I thought there was a law that defined where onscreen graphics were allowed to be placed? A zone were legally they weren't allowed to spill over onto other areas of the screen. Or is that just for OTA channels like NBC? I don't regularly watch either of those channels but I felt this crossed the line big time and is a horrible precedent to be made. StarzHD is now also having onscreen promotion of other shows during movies joining the likes of Showtime.

For me, it's the live sporting events that kill the Cox DVR. I like auto racing, but a single NASCAR race can be 4 hours, plus an extra hour to tag on in case of delays. That's almost 30% of the box capacity for a single event. My son likes Soccer, so he has his shows to record, and my daughter has her shows. The live sporting events I can watch fairly fast, since I don't need all the pre-race talk, and I fast foward through yellow flags and such. While I'm guessing 117 hours is way more than I need, the 18 or so I get from Cox isn't working well at all with my family needs.

Ahhh, good point. I, too, record and watch NASCAR, but typically start watching before it's through. I'm usually caught up by the end. I hate watching sporting events later; I always (somehow) hear the results. In any event, I could see if a family recorded multiple sporting events, the DVR would fill up very quickly. If Cox would just allow an external hard drive...

So I have always been vocal on my hatred when it comes to onscreen graphics but I've seen a couple that take the cake. In the past week or so I have seen programs on TBS HD and Lifetime HD were the graphics literally reach the center of the screen and remain there for the entire program. I thought there was a law that defined where onscreen graphics were allowed to be placed? A zone were legally they weren't allowed to spill over onto other areas of the screen. Or is that just for OTA channels like NBC? I don't regularly watch either of those channels but I felt this crossed the line big time and is a horrible precedent to be made. StarzHD is now also having onscreen promotion of other shows during movies joining the likes of Showtime.God, I hate those.
Especially when they stretch it. TNN had that long before it became SpikeTV. The annoying thing is that for about 5 seconds after returning from commercials, it wasn't stretched, then for the rest of the time until the next commercial it's squished. I think those that change the size of the picture do that so "you don't miss anything" but when wheels are shaped like those of an old cartoon, something's not right.

God, I hate those.
Especially when they stretch it. TNN had that long before it became SpikeTV. The annoying thing is that for about 5 seconds after returning from commercials, it wasn't stretched, then for the rest of the time until the next commercial it's squished. I think those that change the size of the picture do that so "you don't miss anything" but when wheels are shaped like those of an old cartoon, something's not right.

Hey Travis - I believe TheRock was speaking of those annoying network television logos or other advertisements that stay or appear on screen during regular programming. I admit, though, both issues are VERY annoying.

By the way, TheRock, also annoying are the ads that continue to have movement during programming; talk about a distraction. I understand that they need advertising dollars, particularly in this economic climate, but come on. They must not forget that we are there to watch the program, not the other way around. If they continue to come up with new and inventive ways of advertising, we won't be there to see it. :rolleyes:

So I have always been vocal on my hatred when it comes to onscreen graphics but I've seen a couple that take the cake. In the past week or so I have seen programs on TBS HD and Lifetime HD were the graphics literally reach the center of the screen and remain there for the entire program. I thought there was a law that defined where onscreen graphics were allowed to be placed? A zone were legally they weren't allowed to spill over onto other areas of the screen. Or is that just for OTA channels like NBC? I don't regularly watch either of those channels but I felt this crossed the line big time and is a horrible precedent to be made. StarzHD is now also having onscreen promotion of other shows during movies joining the likes of Showtime.

I thought there was a law that defined where onscreen graphics were allowed to be placed?

As annoying as they are, I don't think they are illegal for broadcast or otherwise, regardless of where they are placed. I found this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_on-screen_graphic) explaining "bugs" as they call them; isn't that appropriate? They are used nearly every day in sports programming in all sorts of areas of the screen. It's just that we expect and even want to have on screen items during sports, as scores and other stats are welcomed. However, the whole reason for larger and larger screens (and hence better PQ, too) is to get more enveloped in to the programming. This doesn't work with annoying bugs, particularly when they fly around the screen...well, like bugs.

Hey Travis - I believe TheRock was speaking of those annoying network television logos or other advertisements that stay or appear on screen during regular programming. I admit, though, both issues are VERY annoying. As was I, Spike has a banner, or had a banner, at the bottom of the creen that would smash the video vertically.
TBS does it from time to time with their banners, too. FOX has some atrocious adverts like that. I also get annoyed by the Starz things, you'd think a premium movie channel wouldn't do that, but they do.

As was I, Spike has a banner, or had a banner, at the bottom of the creen that would smash the video vertically.
TBS does it from time to time with their banners, too. FOX has some atrocious adverts like that. I also get annoyed by the Starz things, you'd think a premium movie channel wouldn't do that, but they do.

Okay, I wasn't aware of that. So they are changing the aspect ratio of the program so that they can have a banner displayed? Are any of the HD channels doing this? I don't recall seeing it.

Okay, realizing I am in the minority, I have to ask. How do you find time to watch the 117 hours of programming? I find if I don't watch my programming often, it grows in to an unmanageable beast.

Having less recording time forces me to not only be selective, but also to regularly watch the shows I've recorded. I can see archiving programming on to a separate drive, but I sure hope you aren't using the TiVo as a place to store important programming. Hard drives can and do crash from time to time.I'm with you. I think it depends on your lifestyle and how many people are using the DVR in the household. In my case I am pretty much the only one who uses the DVR in the bonus room of my house, and if I don't watch what I've recorded within a few days it usually just goes stale and I might as well blow it away. There definitely ARE exceptions, like during Olympic games and things like that where you do a lot of recording AND later decide what to watch. In such cases you can run out of space fairly quickly which is kind of annoying. But I find that to be a real minority of the time, and in those cases I can use two DVRs to get all of the events recorded, although that solution requires you to switch TVs for viewing. :(

For those who sit in front of their TVs 24/7, they probably need more space. But for me, the Cox DVR is fine 95% of the time.

Okay, I wasn't aware of that. So they are changing the aspect ratio of the program so that they can have a banner displayed? Are any of the HD channels doing this? I don't recall seeing it.

I believe either TBS HD or TNT HD still does this, but for the most part, no aspect ratio contortion with the HD stations.

Get the Tivo S3, you'll never look back. This is exactly why I switched from the Cox DVR, not enough capacity. BTW, if you watch football, you can get a couple of games recorded on Sundays but run the risk of either not recording or having shows deleted to make room. Simply not acceptable.........

The cable card install was seamless, one M-card does the trick.

If you have 2 Tivos networked in your house, you can transfer shows between TV's. Very cool and it keeps peace in the house if someone wants to go to bed early.

Okay, realizing I am in the minority, I have to ask. How do you find time to watch the 117 hours of programming? I find if I don't watch my programming often, it grows in to an unmanageable beast.

I don't necessarily plan to fill up the DVR... I just want the option to go on a trip for 10 days without having to either record everything in SD or have most of it deleted by the time I get home.

The reason I chose the 750 gig hard drive, as opposed to a larger or smaller one, was that it appeared to be the sweet spot in terms of pricing (you could get a significantly smaller one and save a little money, or get a somewhat bigger one and spend a lot more money).

I also don't see having a lot of stuff saved as unmanageable, necessarily. Either I'll watch it or eventually I'll delete it. I also love the Winter Olympics and plan to record a lot of it this time out, something I couldn't do last time with the Cox DVR.

To me, a DVR is about flexibility, and the size of the Cox hard drive meant that my flexibility was very limited. If they had a DVR with 40-50 hours I'd probably never have switched to TiVo, but less than 20 hours is just too small.

I'm not intending to get too political about this, but if we had a real FCC that was actually responsive TO the public instead of TO the networks/cable/satellite companies, then the FCC would declare what IS/IS NOT the definition of "HD". The FCC could enforce truth in advertising labelling of every transmission just like they do with their "TV-PG" etc content label requirements. I wonder why corporate greed always wins?

It doesn't tend to win in Canada, where the CRTC has been trying to be a watchdog for years. Problem is, when that happens, just as many crazies jump out of the bushes screaming about government control. Personally, I'd rather have that then the corp lies we get.

Well, that'd be nice and stuff, but the FCC is responsible for majority of the lack of quality. What networks and viewers were hoping for when Analog was dropped was for better and stronger Digital signals. Instead, the strength of signal/bandwidth limit that could be sent out via Digital was lowered for most stations, and left the same for the rest.

Thanks, FCC.

However, with ABC, I think it's partially due to the fact that they have, what is it, 4 or 5 digital channels?

Don't thank the FCC - thank each other - we vote for a party to rule us. If you vote R, then this is what we get. Now that digital is in, I get three channels with my "rooftop" HD antenna. Three. And I live halfway between San Diego and Los Angeles. How crap is that? All the networks have reduced their power. In the analog days I could receive 30 channels via rooftop - now, only Mexican channels find their way up to my antenna. Interesting. But remember, we are responsible, as we vote who gets into power. The FCC board is currently 3-2 favoring Republicans. Take it from there. The R's were in power for 8 years, and a big-business stacked FCC was the result. As soon as Obama got in, and the sale of the public airwaves was completed, Bush's little FCC chairman up and quit. Nice.

Well it appears that Cox has taken away my final reason for staying with there cable television service. I am no longer able to tune the On Demand programs with my QAM PC Tuner Card. It has a C by the channel number and the screen is black with a message saying "Stream Is Scrambled". This was my last and final way to record HD Movies (that I pay for) but I guess they felt it was being too nice for the customers. Apparently we are all pirates and record this stuff and sell it on the black market. :rolleyes:

This was literally the ONLY advantage left for Cox compared to DirecTV. I will now be actively looking for DirecTV deals or promotions. If any of you guys know any please let me know.

...just as many crazies jump out of the bushes screaming about government control. Personally, I'd rather have that then the corp lies we get.

If you vote R, then this is what we get...The FCC board is currently 3-2 favoring Republicans. Take it from there. The R's were in power for 8 years, and a big-business stacked FCC was the result. As soon as Obama got in, and the sale of the public airwaves was completed, Bush's little FCC chairman up and quit. Nice.

I won't go into the numerous ways this is offensive to me, but I will ask that we keep politics out of this discussion. It is one of the few places I can go to where I can escape politics. I could argue that the "D" has caused issues, too, so let's just suffice it to say that government in general can (and does) get in the way.

Well it appears that Cox has taken away my final reason for staying with there cable television service. I am no longer able to tune the On Demand programs with my QAM PC Tuner Card. It has a C by the channel number and the screen is black with a message saying "Stream Is Scrambled". This was my last and final way to record HD Movies (that I pay for) but I guess they felt it was being too nice for the customers. Apparently we are all pirates and record this stuff and sell it on the black market. :rolleyes:

This was literally the ONLY advantage left for Cox compared to DirecTV. I will now be actively looking for DirecTV deals or promotions. If any of you guys know any please let me know.

That doesn't sound good. Hopefully this is just temporary. I know they've inadvertently thrown a switch or two in the wrong direction a few times in the past.

Moyekj - I think I may now have enough justification to get a TiVo HD. I've always been on the fence, but I think the Netflix streaming and multi-room viewing may be enough to put me over the hump. I'm hoping you may be able to answer a couple specific questions in regards to those two services.

Netflix streaming - do you use the service or know of other TiVo viewers who do? If so, how is the quality? Is it stable (e.g. no stuttering)? I suppose I could (and will) browse the TiVo threads, but I value your opinion. My current solution is to use PlayOn to stream Netflix to my PS3, but I've found unless the PS3 and computer are on the same network segment (both plugged into the same hub/switch), I see the occasional stutter. While that would be no big deal if I were watching the Netflix streaming movie on the computer because I could get right back to where I was, on the PS3 I have to start the whole movie over again. That's not a good solution for me, so I'm hoping the TiVo interface/experience is more stable and has better navigation.

Multi-room viewing - as you may recall, I have an old Series 2 that I will be using for multi-room viewing. It does not have an Ethernet port, but I do have the adapter to allow a wired connection. However, due to the logistics of my bedroom system, I am considering using a wireless bridge or the like. My concern is that since I will be primarily watching HD programming on the new TiVo HD, the transfer speed via wireless G speeds may not be great in the real world. I realize the viewing on the Series 2 would be SD, but do you have any experience or comments in regards to the transfer speed and overall user experience of multi-room viewing?

Thanks for your help; I'm almost there. :D

By the way, I'm considering a refurb TiVo HD directly from TiVo. They are selling them for $200, but I want to get your views on buying a used one directly from them.

That doesn't sound good. Hopefully this is just temporary. I know they've inadvertently thrown a switch or two in the wrong direction a few times in the past.

Problem still persists. I even had my TV do a scan to make sure my PC tuner card wasn't malfunctioning. Sadly the TV can no longer view those signals either.

If anyone at Cox trolls here and rather than changing the things we ask for instead assists in taking away the few things we still enjoy.... you can go f*ck yourself.

Problem still persists. I even had my TV do a scan to make sure my PC tuner card wasn't malfunctioning. Sadly the TV can no longer view those signals either.

If anyone at Cox trolls here and rather than changing the things we ask for instead assists in taking away the few things we still enjoy.... you can go f*ck yourself.

That really does suck. If I could switch to D*, I probably would, too. However, I have a number of basic-cable only locations and the cost would actually go up for me. Further, I live on the first floor of a 2-story condo with all-tile floors. The install would not go well, and I'm not entirely positive they could get a direct line of sight to the satellite. All those issues aside, I would still have to stick with Cox for internet access. Hands down, at least in my neighborhood, DSL cannot compete with the up and down stream rates I am getting consistently with Cox. On top of that, the price is good.

I'll stick with Cox until the bad outweighs the good (for me, that is), but I do hope to switch over to TiVo, so at least I'll have some better and new features (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16614867#post16614867) to enjoy...

Netflix streaming - do you use the service or know of other TiVo viewers who do? If so, how is the quality? Is it stable (e.g. no stuttering)? Yes I have Netflix and have used streaming quite extensively to my Tivos. Never had any issues except with some movies that won't stream properly due to decoder issue - but that is only an issue for older series 3 machines not with the TiVo HD units which have a newer/better mpeg4 decoder. If you stop watching then it will resume where you left off which makes it very convenient. The quality of the "HD" streams is pretty good. A little better video quality than DVD but keep in mind that audio is currently 2 channel only (no 5.1 audio).

Multi-room viewing - as you may recall, I have an old Series 2 that I will be using for multi-room viewing. It does not have an Ethernet port, but I do have the adapter to allow a wired connection. However, due to the logistics of my bedroom system, I am considering using a wireless bridge or the like. My concern is that since I will be primarily watching HD programming on the new TiVo HD, the transfer speed via wireless G speeds may not be great in the real world. I realize the viewing on the Series 2 would be SD, but do you have any experience or comments in regards to the transfer speed and overall user experience of multi-room viewing?
Another option for wired networking to avoid wireless is to use MoCA. With that option you can network to any place that your coax runs go. I hear the powerline adapters seem to work pretty well these days as well. Wireless is just too slow/unreliable for my liking though I do use wireless on my laptop for extracting programs from the Tivos and it works well. MRV would certainly suffer if you use wireless.

Yes I have Netflix and have used streaming quite extensively to my Tivos. Never had any issues except with some movies that won't stream properly due to decoder issue - but that is only an issue for older series 3 machines not with the TiVo HD units which have a newer/better mpeg4 decoder. If you stop watching then it will resume where you left off which makes it very convenient. The quality of the "HD" streams is pretty good. A little better video quality than DVD but keep in mind that audio is currently 2 channel only (no 5.1 audio).

Another option for wired networking to avoid wireless is to use MoCA. With that option you can network to any place that your coax runs go. I hear the powerline adapters seem to work pretty well these days as well. Wireless is just too slow/unreliable for my liking though I do use wireless on my laptop for extracting programs from the Tivos and it works well. MRV would certainly suffer if you use wireless.

Thank you! Yes, I actually have the Netgear MoCA device. Netgear and the technology in general claim 270 Mbps, but when I tested by sending a large folder across the device, the best I get is 51 Mbps, not bad, but not 270 Mbps. That is part of my problem. I could locate the other MoCA device at my bedroom system, but I'm concerned with the throughput issue. To give you an idea, when I stream Netflix via PlayOn across the MoCA, I get the stuttering issue - not always, but enough to be a problem. However, when I simply run a 50' Cat5 cable from the switch where my computer (running PlayOn) is also, I have no problems. I've tried to get Netgear to help, but my "case" has been open for two weeks. The really sad thing is, I've tested the device by putting a 3' RG6 cable between the two MoCA devices and still only get 51 Mbps. I don't even have cable running through it in that scenario.

Either way, I think I'll give it a try with the MoCA. I'm just not real confident in the device. I just didn't want to go through the hassle, but it sounds like wireless is a no-go.

Any thoughts on the used TiVo HDs (bought through TiVo)?

The quality of the "HD" streams is pretty good. A little better video quality than DVD but keep in mind that audio is currently 2 channel only (no 5.1 audio).

Yes, I'm aware of the audio limitation, but anything that is really important to me, I get the Blu-ray via Netflix anyway. As for the "a little better video quality than DVD," comment, via PlayOn, even using the aforementioned direct connection to the computer, it is well below DVD quality, so that actually sounds like another strong reason to go with TiVo.

Thanks again

Refurbs are usually just fine from my experience with ReplayTVs (I had 3 refurbs). I haven't tried Tivo refurbs. The 2 most common problems with Tivos and DVRs in general are the power supply and the hard drives, both of which can quite easily be replaced. Refurbs via Tivo I believe have same warranty as new units so I wouldn't be too concerned.

For MoCA I use the Motorola NIM100 devices and get ~ 80 Mbps using netio compared to ~ 90 Mbps using cat6 connection so at least for my case performance is close to wired ethernet. For Tivo HD devices MRV maxes out below 30 Mbps anyway even for wired ethernet, so properly functioning MoCA should suffice.

Refurbs are usually just fine from my experience with ReplayTVs (I had 3 refurbs). I haven't tried Tivo refurbs. The 2 most common problems with Tivos and DVRs in general are the power supply and the hard drives, both of which can quite easily be replaced. Refurbs via Tivo I believe have same warranty as new units so I wouldn't be too concerned.

For MoCA I use the Motorola NIM100 devices and get ~ 80 Mbps using netio compared to ~ 90 Mbps using cat6 connection so at least for my case performance is close to wired ethernet. For Tivo HD devices MRV maxes out below 30 Mbps anyway even for wired ethernet, so properly functioning MoCA should suffice.

Okay, thanks. To test the transfer speed, I literally connected the two MoCA devices with a 3' RG6 cable, plugged my home computer Ethernet into one MoCA device, and my laptop into the other MoCA device (Ethernet). This is purely a test, and there is clearly no cable signal involved, hence the direct RG6 connection. When I copy a 2.67 GB folder from one to the other, it takes 447 seconds, so I get 51.33 Mbps (megabits per second).

However, when I connect the laptop and home computer to the router (gigabit router) via Ethernet (note: no MoCA device, just direct connection through router) and transfer that same 2.67 GB folder, it takes only 62 seconds, so I calculate that to be 370.1 Mbps.

I even found a very small freeware program, LAN Speed Test, and it gives me exactly the same throughput using both tests.

Realizing this is way off topic, I'm wondering if this is not a fair way to test throughput. Although, how else would one do it besides a file transfer? That is what LAN Speed Test is doing anyway.

Ordering TiVo HD now....

My guess is that 3 feet of RG6 just isn't enough attenuation, so it might be having trouble where the receiver sides are being overdriven. Might be better to try a real world scenario instead....

My guess is that 3 feet of RG6 just isn't enough attenuation, so it might be having trouble where the receiver sides are being overdriven. Might be better to try a real world scenario instead....

Thanks. I didn't go into the details as this is way off topic, but I did first test the file transfer method in my real-world situation. The paltry 51 Mbps (compared to specs anyway) led me to try the basic way. Both ways I get the 51 Mbps.

Moyekj - this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879469) seems to be the best (most appropriate) forum for me to review, but are there others (even outside of AVS) that you would recommend? Tivo Community perhaps? I think I used to peruse that one a few years back when I first got my Series 2.

Moyekj - this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879469) seems to be the best (most appropriate) forum for me to review, but are there others (even outside of AVS) that you would recommend? Tivo Community perhaps? I think I used to peruse that one a few years back when I first got my Series 2. These are my TCF bookmarks where everything Series 3 related is discussed. The AVS forum thread is much more recent and less complete compared to what you can get at TCF:
TiVo Series 3 HDTV DVRs (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=51)
TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=35)
TiVo Coffee House (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=3)

Keep in mind of course that if you were to judge things by postings alone then it seems there is nothing but problems, but the reality of course is that most people without any problems don't post that everything is working well. That's kind of the problem I have when researching TVs to buy - the more online research you do the more problems you discover with pretty much every TV out there and it makes you not want to buy any of them. In the end most of the problems discussed are overblown or don't affect most people.