Doug, netman, et.al.

Thanks for you advice on OTA reception in Wilton, CT. Rotator is a very good suggestion for fine tuning, which never occurred to me, since I was going to fix the antenna only at the networks in midtown.

I live on top of a hill, so I don't think immediate terrain will be too much of a problem. Trees could be another story though. They aren't right up against the house, but all of Wilton is basically in the woods, so it's tough to get away from them entirely.

Reception in my area is a gamble I guess, but my hd tuner has been collecting dust for over six months since our move from Maryland, so I'm anxious to get it back in action.

I have a Channel master OTa that D* provided to me. How much does a rotor cost and can it be used with an antenna of this type? What is involved in doing this?

TIA
Z

ChannelMaster 9521a rotator ranges from about $70 - $100 (online). In store at Lowes $90+. This is the only rotator that has remote control. Radio shack sells the same model with their logo.

In addition to rotator you need 3 wire controller cable which is run from unit to digital controller. Cable is cheap. Rotator can be used with virtually all antennas.

Will we ever see a Freedom Tower? Here is an article from Broadcast Engineering....
http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/t2d/20050207/#tower

George

Originally posted by dswallow
Are there any FM stations broadcasting near you (really near)? They might overload your preamp if it covers those frequencies... similarly if there is a close-by transmitter in the frequency range covered by your preamp, it might be the reason the preamp causes problems. If it's a VHF/UHF preamp, it probably can be affected by a strong local FM transmitter. If the preamp doesn't have a built-in way to block FM signals, you can get an FM block and place it inline between the antenna and preamp.

Have you tried it without the preamp inline at all?

I was able to receive all UHF digital stations (pre-combiner) from NYC at 30 miles using a Winegard SS-1000 SquareShooter antenna, with no preamp. I've not yet tried it now that the combiner is mostly operational, and certainly would expect it does at least as well as before.

BTW, if you haven't seen it already, have a look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/fixes.html (and many of the other pages on the same site).
Thanks much. I will check out all these potential causes. It is now clear that I have to methodically look at each one and test it, as my set up is a likely candidate for all of these. The link you have suggested above also explains these very clearly.

I think the PR-4400 should work better than the Square Shooter, if the other variables are identical. So it may be a case of "location, location, location" (of town, house, antenna).
Chris.

Has anyone noticed a reduction in power in all the stations on the combiner ? I am in Nassau county and were getting all the stations in the 90 signal range, but now they all seemed to have dropped off in power dramatically. Has anyone else lost power on the stations off the combiner. I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me if they are having any problems before I start looking at my antenna setup.

Thanks.

Scott,
While WCBS controls the combiner, they do not control individual transmitters, however I am not sure of the protocol of dumping to a dummy load or changing the combiner configuration. Upon further investigation here has not been an overall change in power of any transmitters at the ESB site.
George

Originally posted by tvuser1
I am using a Fusion HDTV card for OTA broadcasts. It works fine, except for the Fox network. During commercials, and only during commercials, it causes the card to crash. This doesn't happen on any other channel, just Fox. Other people in other threads in the AVS forums have reported the same thing, and this happens all over the country. Would anyone want to take a guess as to why this might happen? What is going on during the commercials, and only on Fox? If someone could figure it out, maybe it could be fixed.

Mind control sub-harmonics?

Originally posted by Scott G
Has anyone noticed a reduction in power in all the stations on the combiner ? I am in Nassau county and were getting all the stations in the 90 signal range, but now they all seemed to have dropped off in power dramatically. Has anyone else lost power on the stations off the combiner. I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me if they are having any problems before I start looking at my antenna setup.

Thanks.

I experienced reduced signal (according the the readout on my two MyHDs) last night. I have no idea if it was transmitter site related or atmospheric or flying saucers but it is pretty rare for me to see degraded signals on either receiver.

Originally posted by netman
I experienced reduced signal (according the the readout on my two MyHDs) last night. I have no idea if it was transmitter site related or atmospheric or flying saucers but it is pretty rare for me to see degraded signals on either receiver.

Yeah, I definitely think something is going on. Maybe it is atmospheric. I have been getting steady 90's on all stations since the combiner and as of last night I was getting reduced signals on every station. Everything seems to be okay with my antenna.

Originally posted by MLM
I had a similar experience in NE Queens. New Jersey public TV for a few weeks, then almost no signal and no picture since. Hi MLM, thanks for your post -- it's good to know I'm not alone in this. Hopefully Bob will be able to shed some light on what's going on. Anyone else in NYC have the same experience of getting a strong WNJN signal for a while, only to have it disappear? Thanks, Dan in Brooklyn

I also noticed about a lower signal (according to my 921's off-air meter) last night across the board...and NBC was dead...zilch...a zero. Yesterday around 3PM I was checking and all was good- NBC was around a 90. But when I attempted to watch "Medium" at 10 PM, the signal was GONE. Other networks were OK, though a bit lower than usual. Note that all networks were perfect for the Prez last week...doesn't anyone realize Medium is so much more interesting!

Originally posted by mw390
I have the Silver Sensor. I literally replaced the Terk in place of the Silver Sensor and got NO SIGNAL WHATSOEVER


mw390, thanks for your help. I'll get the Silver Sensor!

The signal levels seem to have come back up this afternoon. I guess it was either something atmospheric or they were fooling around at the combiner.

Originally posted by wlm
Doug, netman, et.al.

Thanks for you advice on OTA reception in Wilton, CT. Rotator is a very good suggestion for fine tuning, which never occurred to me, since I was going to fix the antenna only at the networks in midtown.

I live on top of a hill, so I don't think immediate terrain will be too much of a problem. Trees could be another story though. They aren't right up against the house, but all of Wilton is basically in the woods, so it's tough to get away from them entirely.

Reception in my area is a gamble I guess, but my hd tuner has been collecting dust for over six months since our move from Maryland, so I'm anxious to get it back in action.

I am a Wiltonian - off Rigefield Road. Elevation 650 feet but lots of trees. I have a Winegard bi-directional.

Antennaweb.org is just dead wrong about DT stations out of NYC. There are better cites but I am unable to provide you the URL because I have not made five posts yet. But the short answer is that the NYC DT stations are CBS, 2-1, NBC, 4-1 and 4-2, Fox 5-1 and 5-2, ABC, 7-1 and 7-2, UPN, 9-1 and 9-2, WB, 11-1 and 11-2, and WNET, 13-1. 5-1 and 5-2 and 9-1 and 9-2 are odd since 5-1 is FOX HD while 5-2 is UPN SD. 9-1 and 9-2 are the reciprocals.

My Winegard probably needs some orientation fine-tuning. I get CBS 2-1 and ABC 8-1 and 8-2 from New Haven (only 20 miles away) solid. 5-1/5-2, 9-1/9-2 and 11-1/11-2 are not reliable. No shows for me are ABC NYC 7-1/7-2, and NET 13-1. NYC transmitters are about 42 miles away.

I am awaiting installation of a new ChannelMaster with preamp. We'll see it that helps.

Martin21

Hmm.. I have no good answer for that. It could be almost anything at this point but it would be something on your end or something blocking the signal to your location. NJN power hasn't changed that I know of. Only changes I know of are in the works and those are power boosts.

Originally posted by DanC-P
Bob, thanks very much for your reply. Here's the deal in a nutshell. When I first connected my roof antenna to my receiver and did a scan, the only channels I received were WNJN + substations. I didn't know enough about HDTV to understand exactly which channels I was tuned to (I didn't pay attention to the numbers). I went out and bought a Silver Sensor (for the other channels) thinking that I would just switch back to the roof antenna when I wanted to watch WNJN. Unfortunately, now when I hook up the roof antenna, I no longer receive any signal, ZERO. I'm wondering if when I first was receiving WNJN it was because they had temporarily boosted the power (maybe a test...). I was receiving a very strong and steady signal, now I get zilch (I tried all the different towers you mentioned). Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Dan in Brooklyn

Originally posted by martin21
Antennaweb.org is just dead wrong about DT stations out of NYC. There are better cites but I am unable to provide you the URL because I have not made five posts yet.
Martin21
Do you know for a fact that it is wrong in terms of transmitter location/orientation? I need to determine that because I am receiving the NYC stations (not too well) at a differect orientation than what is suggested by antennaweb.org. Unfortunately another site (the one in Doug Swallow's signature line) matches the antennaweb orientations. I am trying to determine whether I am receiving the original signals or the reflections.

Could you pm the URLs of the better sites to me, please?
Thanks.
Chris.

Originally posted by aup
Do you know for a fact that it is wrong in terms of transmitter location/orientation? I need to determine that because I am receiving the NYC stations (not too well) at a differect orientation than what is suggested by antennaweb.org. Unfortunately another site (the one in Doug Swallow's signature line) matches the antennaweb orientations. I am trying to determine whether I am receiving the original signals or the reflections.

Could you pm the URLs of the better sites to me, please?
Thanks.
Chris.
Chris, did you use a magnetic deviation around -13.5? If you're around there then the compass headings it's showing are definitely correct. But even then a couple degrees one way or the other may provide better reception, since you can only get so accurate reading a small compass. Someone needs to incorporate a GPS receiver in a rotator. :)

Last night WNJN was a zero % reading. Like the signal was just shut off completely. Last week I had no lock with 49-57%. Two weeks ago I had a solid 63% lock and was able to watch for a whole week. 4-1 was a solid 63% now no lock at 49-56%, Also 9-1 came in at 78% now its 63%. On 5-1, 7-1 & 2-1 always have 78-82%.

Originally posted by aup
Do you know for a fact that it is wrong in terms of transmitter location/orientation? I need to determine that because I am receiving the NYC stations (not too well) at a differect orientation than what is suggested by antennaweb.org. Unfortunately another site (the one in Doug Swallow's signature line) matches the antennaweb orientations. I am trying to determine whether I am receiving the original signals or the reflections.

Could you pm the URLs of the better sites to me, please?
Thanks.
Chris.

Chris, I don't know what Doug Swallow sent to you but the one I referred to as better shows the same magnetic headings as those shown on antennaweb.org, i.e. for me 231 degrees for all NYC stations. Simply by looking at a map I can tell that this is roughly right for the direction of NYC from my home. I had my Winegard rotated to roughly this direction but what resulted was the inconsistencies I reported in my first post. Terrain must somehow play a part.

The site I am talking about, which I am not allowed to put in this post, has a 2150 in the URL. You have to enter your longitude and latitude first. You can find the site for determing longitude and latitude by going into Google and entering longitude and latitude and it is the second hit. When you do your search in 2150 you should first specify the distance you want to search. I used 50 miles and generated numerous stations in NYC, NJ and CT.

Hope this helps.

Martin21

Originally posted by dswallow
Chris, did you use a magnetic deviation around -13.5? If you're around there then the compass headings it's showing are definitely correct. But even then a couple degrees one way or the other may provide better reception, since you can only get so accurate reading a small compass. Someone needs to incorporate a GPS receiver in a rotator. :)

Doug, you reference to magnetic deviation makes me realize how much I don't know. If used a store-bought magnet, which I would assume points to magnetic North, is there an adjustment needed? I thought antennaweb.org used magnetic headings.

Thanks.

Martin21

Correction: I said store-bought "magnet" when what I meant was "compass".

Addition: I now see that the 2150 site to which I referred automatically adds a magnetic deviation of -13.5 so the results must have been adjusted for that. So, maybe I don't have a question. Sorry.

Got this in response to my query to WNET viewer relations this afternoon:

"My engineering staff is now saying we should be fully operative in a few more months. Unfortunately, they could not be more specific."

This confirms the last sentence of the Newsday article on the combiner project, pasted below.

/steve

Article taken from Long Island's NEWSDAY
SUNDAY December 19, 2004 ~ Page E32

HI-DEF AIR ALERT:

New Yorkers who depend on over-the-air signals for their HDTV viewing are about to be handed a Christmas present. Perhaps belatedly: the long-awaited, long delayed "combiner" transmitter atop the Empire State Building is supposed to begin transmitting by January.

The powerful combiner, which looks like a huge chunk of plumbing pipes, will replace the transmitters that were atop the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. High definition digital broadcast originating from the Empire State Building will come from WCBS (which has been in place for several years) WNBC, WOR,WPIX and WNET. Fox (WNYC) broadcasts from a separate antenna on the building.

Bob Seidel, vice president of engineering for CBS, says he expects most of the stations will be transmitting from the combiner within the month. The range of the digital broadcasts will be from 55 to 60 miles, he said. "You won't notice any change in channel 2, we've been at 100 percent power all along. But all the other stations will get out farther," Seidel said.

WNET will be later in joining the combiner, since some of its transmission facilities aren't yet complete.

Got this in response to my query to WNET viewer relations this afternoon:

"My engineering staff is now saying we should be fully operative in a few more months. Unfortunately, they could not be more specific."

This confirms the last sentence of the Newsday article on the combiner project below.

/steve

Article taken from Long Island's NEWSDAY
SUNDAY December 19, 2004 ~ Page E32

HI-DEF AIR ALERT:

New Yorkers who depend on over-the-air signals for their HDTV viewing are about to be handed a Christmas present. Perhaps belatedly: the long-awaited, long delayed "combiner" transmitter atop the Empire State Building is supposed to begin transmitting by January.

The powerful combiner, which looks like a huge chunk of plumbing pipes, will replace the transmitters that were atop the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. High definition digital broadcast originating from the Empire State Building will come from WCBS (which has been in place for several years) WNBC, WOR,WPIX and WNET. Fox (WNYC) broadcasts from a separate antenna on the building.

Bob Seidel, vice president of engineering for CBS, says he expects most of the stations will be transmitting from the combiner within the month. The range of the digital broadcasts will be from 55 to 60 miles, he said. "You won't notice any change in channel 2, we've been at 100 percent power all along. But all the other stations will get out farther," Seidel said.

WNET will be later in joining the combiner, since some of its transmission facilities aren't yet complete.

If anyone out there is having trouble buying a Silver Sensor as of this exact time (7:30 PMEST) one seller in NJ has 28 available at a buy it nowprice of $17.99 + 10.00 shipping. Link:
http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15064&item=5749562211&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Can anyone explain the apparent differences in audio levels on the various NYC DTV stations? I put a scope on my STB audio output and found a 10 dB difference in the peak audio level between WNBC and WCBS . The other stations fall in between in level with WCBS the highest. There does not seem to be any uniformity in audio level as is found on the analog channels. Is there any requirement in the ATSC standard that audio be transmitted at a uniform reference level?

Mike

Originally posted by dswallow
Chris, did you use a magnetic deviation around -13.5? If you're around there then the compass headings it's showing are definitely correct. But even then a couple degrees one way or the other may provide better reception, since you can only get so accurate reading a small compass. Someone needs to incorporate a GPS receiver in a rotator. :) Hi Doug! Yes, I did, in making the entries in your site. (I used the default of -13.25.) Antennaweb does not ask for it, but I assume it inorporates it by default. As I said, both specify orientations of 96 degrees, which I am now inclined to believe is probably accurate. So the question is still open as to why I am seeing Fox (and occasionally other NYC stations) at about 75-80 degrees. I will follow through the suggestions you made and dig further into this. There is a small police station nearby (500-600 feet), but I don't think there are any FM transmitters.

Re: GPS in rotators, if you are into amateur astronomy, you know that they have similar needs there. There are some affordable solutions, such as Meade Autostar, that will move the telescope automatically to a location you punch in, once you have normalized the telescope using celestial North and your coordinates. Of course, the more expensive scopes have GPS incorporated. In our case though, I wonder how much longer it wil be before the HD stations become part of the basic cable/satellite packages, or become cheap enough, that it is not cost effective to spend several hundered dollars on antenna gear.
Thanks again.
Chris.

Originally posted by martin21
Chris, I don't know what Doug Swallow sent to you but the one I referred to as better shows the same magnetic headings as those shown on antennaweb.org, i.e. for me 231 degrees for all NYC stations. Simply by looking at a map I can tell that this is roughly right for the direction of NYC from my home. I had my Winegard rotated to roughly this direction but what resulted was the inconsistencies I reported in my first post. Terrain must somehow play a part.

The site I am talking about, which I am not allowed to put in this post, has a 2150 in the URL. You have to enter your longitude and latitude first. You can find the site for determing longitude and latitude by going into Google and entering longitude and latitude and it is the second hit. When you do your search in 2150 you should first specify the distance you want to search. I used 50 miles and generated numerous stations in NYC, NJ and CT.

Hope this helps.

Martin21 Hi Martin!
Yes, got it. I wasn't sure in what ways you had meant that antennaweb was wrong. Doesn't appear that antenna orientation is one of them, at least in comparison to the 2150 site. Completeness is certainly an issue, although in my current situation, I don't even receive all the antennaweb stations, let alone the others listed on 2150.
Thanks again.
Chris.

For those of us waiting for guide data on the HDTIVO so we can setup our season pass 11.1 (with guide data) is now remapped to UHF channel 33 from VHF channel 12

I will be moving to East Meadow, NY next month, does anyone know a good antenna to use for OTA? The wife is pretty against a roof mount so I’m hoping something like a Silver Sensor or an attic mount would work. Thanks for your help.

Is anyone having problems with FOX? I try to tune it in and the TV goes blank and actually shuts down. Tried resacanning and did not help. I never had this problem before. Did FOX remap?

I reported about a month ago I had problems receiving NYC OTA stations but this was caused by (embarrassed to say) the antennae turned on the mast and was out of alignment, so far off that the rotator could not bring it back in line.

Originally posted by hobbes382
Feedback from anyone in the general area would be greatly appreciated.
Hobbes382:

check your PM...:D

Originally posted by MidVill
I will be moving to East Meadow, NY next month, does anyone know a good antenna to use for OTA? The wife is pretty against a roof mount so I’m hoping something like a Silver Sensor or an attic mount would work. Thanks for your help.

I live in Westbury (next town from East Meadow) and I don't think a Silver Sensor will work at this distance. I use a Channel Master 4248 Yagi with CM7777 preamp and CM 9521a Rotator. You can probable try an interior attic mount but I don't known if you will have enough signal strength. Scott is on this thread and he's from East Meadow. He can tell you what antenna setup he has.

I did originally have a Radio Shack Bow Tie (Indoor Antenna) and it worked fine for channel 2, 5 and 7. I could not get channel 4 or 11. I now have a Channel Master 4228 with a 7775 preamp. I do not use the RS Bow Tie anymore, but I do think with the combiner signal strengths I probably could get reception with a silver sensor. I am in East Meadow and are about 30 miles from the ESB.

Originally posted by dlan
For those of us waiting for guide data on the HDTIVO so we can setup our season pass 11.1 (with guide data) is now remapped to UHF channel 33 from VHF channel 12

Did you have to clear & rescan or reboot? I'm watching right now and still have "Regular Schedule".

Originally posted by dturturro
Did you have to clear & rescan or reboot? I'm watching right now and still have "Regular Schedule".

I played all the reboots and rescans and things. And then I think Friday night past it just start to work as it used to work.

Make sure you go into channels I receive and turn on both 11-1. One is 12 and one is 33. The 33 one now has guide data and works for me.

Just clearing is enough... Then make sure 11-1 is in CIR.


Originally posted by dturturro
Did you have to clear & rescan or reboot? I'm watching right now and still have "Regular Schedule".

Originally posted by tmtech
Just clearing is enough... Then make sure 11-1 is in CIR.

Got it! Finally, all locals in HD and guide data!

Originally posted by MidVill
I will be moving to East Meadow, NY next month, does anyone know a good antenna to use for OTA? The wife is pretty against a roof mount so I’m hoping something like a Silver Sensor or an attic mount would work. Thanks for your help. Works pretty well in Glen Head (second story). I'm about 21 miles from the ESB. At this point, I can't get CBS and sometimes lose FOX. But I think I may just need to move the antenna around a bit. More after this weekend.

Originally posted by MidVill
I will be moving to East Meadow, NY next month, does anyone know a good antenna to use for OTA? The wife is pretty against a roof mount so I’m hoping something like a Silver Sensor or an attic mount would work. Thanks for your help.


I live in Levittown, about 1/2 mile North of Hempstead Tpke just east of Wantagh Pkwy. My wife is crazy about antennas (Dont get me started). So I have a Silver Sensor peeking out most of the way from an attic vent and I can get 2,4,5,7,9,11

Is the combiner just for HD signals, or are others on it as well?

Originally posted by tvuser1
Is the combiner just for HD signals, or are others on it as well?

Good question but I think it is just for digital transmission. The only channel left that is scheduled to go on is WNETDT.

Originally posted by tvuser1
Is the combiner just for HD signals, or are others on it as well?

The combiner is for digital signals only. Whether or not a digital station broadcasts any HD programs is another story. Currently all stations on the combiner also broadcast some of their programming in HD.

I beleive their are TWO combiners one for digital and one for the analog. there's a link to an article around her somewhere...

Incidently the digital one at least it is like 2 joined units too for redundancy. THe article was pretty neat - i think it could use one half to feed all the channels to both halves of the antenna. It could sent some channels to each of the 2 parts of the combiner to both halves of the antena, or it could send some channels to one side of the combine rto half the antenna and the other channels to the other side to the other half of the antenna.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/news/News_Empire.shtml

There may be others out there, but this is the one I posted on an earlier page and has a wealth of information...

good viewing to all...

thanks!

that's the article i was talking about.

I seemed to have lost UPN WWOR-DT, 9.1 a few days ago. It had been consistently at about 71. Now it's in the 30s and 40s. I know it was reported that they were at full power. Hopefully there is still some tinkering going on.

Originally posted by mikeny
I seemed to have lost UPN WWOR-DT, 9.1 a few days ago. It had been consistently at about 71. Now it's in the 30s and 40s. I know it was reported that they were at full power. Hopefully there is still some tinkering going on. I watched Enterprise last night via OTA and the reception was flawless as was the show. What a shame UPN cancelled it.

Agree, agree. Great 3 episode arc. :(

Are all the stations done with the work on the combiner???

Originally posted by slocko
Are all the stations done with the work on the combiner??? I hope not because I still have big problems receiving the WB (11-1).

Help. I have a Samsung T165 and a Dish 811. With the T165 the reception is flawless, and I've been getting all the stations at about 80% strength and up. With the 811 only CBS and WPIX come in strong at about 77%, everything else is at 40-59%. I rebooted the receiver and did a new channel scan. Nothing changed. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance. JS

Originally posted by mondesign
Can anyone explain the apparent differences in audio levels on the various NYC DTV stations? I put a scope on my STB audio output and found a 10 dB difference in the peak audio level between WNBC and WCBS . The other stations fall in between in level with WCBS the highest. There does not seem to be any uniformity in audio level as is found on the analog channels. Is there any requirement in the ATSC standard that audio be transmitted at a uniform reference level?

Mike

The answer is yes and no. All DTV audio doesn't have to be transmitted at a "reference" level, but there are mechanisms built into the DTV audio system to accommodate different audio levels. The Dolby web site used to have information about it, as they designed the audio system for DTV. It's also the same system that is used on DVDs.

Analog (broadcast) TV used to have a limit of "100% modulation" for audio, but if you surf your cable system you'll find big volume differences there, too. The DTV standard that the FCC adopted has rules about how the audio system is to be used that can make audio more uniform, but it is unclear when (if ever) they will enforce those rules.

You seem to be new here. Is this the biggest problem you have "seen" in HDTV?

Guys:

I am in Jersey City with a direct line-of-sight to the ESB (waterfront). I have always had good reception of the three majors (CBS, NBC, ABC). I use the Silver Sensor. Now have I lost NBC and ABC (a few days now).

I am lucky that the Grammys are on CBS, or my wife would not be happy at all.

Is this what the combiner is all about? What is going on? I get Channel 2, 5, 9, 11, and 13 just fine, but not NBC or ABC.

Originally posted by wojtek
I am in Jersey City with a direct line-of-sight to the ESB (waterfront). I have always had good reception of the three majors (CBS, NBC, ABC). I use the Silver Sensor. Now have I lost NBC and ABC (a few days now).

Is this what the combiner is all about? What is going on? I get Channel 2, 5, 9, 11, and 13 just fine, but not NBC or ABC.
Whatever they're doing, hope they'll throw in an extra tweak so those near the ESB can enjoy reception, too. Maybe maximum power will do it.

Still can only tune CBS from a north-facing location only 9 blocks from the antennas (using building reflections). Happily discovered I was getting a fairly good reading, more stable than CBS, for WPIX. But while the reading is good there are zero images, not even a flicker. With the same hardware (Silver Sensor, Philips RPTV built-in tuner), I used to get ABC/NBC from the World Trade Tower beamed into mid-town Manhattan. Cable TV, fortunately, delivers most HD, but not channels 9 and 11. -- John

Originally posted by hphase
The answer is yes and no. All DTV audio doesn't have to be transmitted at a "reference" level, but there are mechanisms built into the DTV audio system to accommodate different audio levels. The Dolby web site used to have information about it, as they designed the audio system for DTV. It's also the same system that is used on DVDs.

Analog (broadcast) TV used to have a limit of "100% modulation" for audio, but if you surf your cable system you'll find big volume differences there, too. The DTV standard that the FCC adopted has rules about how the audio system is to be used that can make audio more uniform, but it is unclear when (if ever) they will enforce those rules.

You seem to be new here. Is this the biggest problem you have "seen" in HDTV?

Thanks for the info. Aside from the frequent changes in PSIP data recently which require constant rescanning of channels on my STBs, the audio differences are the only minor complaint I have with OTA HDTV. I have been experimenting with it for about a year and considering that DTV broadcasting is still in its rollout phase, it is remarkable how well it does work. I am about 20-25 miles north of midtown and receive all of the area stations solid with an old attic mounted VHF-UHF antenna.

I did a little checking in the ATSC Recommended practice standard A/54A and found the following:


6.5.1 Loudness Normalization

"It is important for the digital television system to provide uniform subjective loudness for all audio programs. Consumers find it very annoying when audio levels fluctuate between broadcast channels (observed when channel hopping), or between program segments on a particularchannel (commercials much louder than the entertainment). One element that is found in most audio programming is the human voice. Achieving an approximate level match for dialogue (spoken in a normal voice, not shouting or whispering) amongst all audio programming is a desirable goal. The AC-3 audio system provides syntactical elements that make this goal achievable.

There is (currently) no regulatory limit as to how loud dialogue may be in an encoded bitstream. Since the digital audio coding system can provide more than 100 dB of dynamic range, there is no technical reason for dialogue to be encoded anywhere near 100% as is commonly done in NTSC television. However, there is no assurance that all program channels, or all programs or program segments on a given channel, will have dialogue encoded at the same (or even similar) level. Lacking a uniform coding level for dialogue (which would imply a uniform headroom available for all programs) there would be inevitable audio level fluctuations between program channels or even between program segments.

Encoded AC-3 elementary bit streams are tagged with an indication (dialnorm) of the subjective level at which dialogue has been encoded. Different audio programs may be encoded with differing amounts of headroom above the level of dialogue in order to allow for dynamic music and sound effects. The digital television receiver (and all AC-3 decoders) are able to use the value of dialnorm to adjust the reproduced level of audio programs so that different received programs have their spoken dialogue reproduced at a uniform level. Some receiver designs may even offer the listener an audio volume control calibrated in absolute sound pressure level. The listener could dial up the desired SPL for dialogue, and the receiver would scale the level of every decoded audio program so that the dialogue is always reproduced at the desired level."


Although it may not be actually mandated, it would be nice if the area DTV broadcasters would get together and adjust their Dolby encoders so that there was some uniformity of audio level between them. The difference is most obvious with WNBC-DT 4.1 and 4.2, whose audio is noticeably lower than the rest of the area DTV stations.

Originally posted by mondesign
The difference is most obvious with WNBC-DT 4.1 and 4.2, whose audio is noticeably lower than the rest of the area DTV stations. And WCBS-DT which cranks their audio... Interesting info, thanks. Dan

The thing that bugs me the most about OTA HDTV in NYC is the lack of easily accessible PBS in HD (that's a lot of abbreviations!). I can't get any PBS signal in Brooklyn, be it from Jersey (althought for a brief wonderful moment I had WNJN) or NY... I wish 13 would hurry up and join the combiner!

Looks like we'll be lucky to get WNET in HD before the summer. /steve

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5146911#post5146911

Originally posted by mondesign
....

Although it may not be actually mandated, it would be nice if the area DTV broadcasters would get together and adjust their Dolby encoders so that there was some uniformity of audio level between them. The difference is most obvious with WNBC-DT 4.1 and 4.2, whose audio is noticeably lower than the rest of the area DTV stations.

The way I read those recommendations, it really doesn't matter how loud a program is, as long as it is accompanied by the proper loudness value (the Dialnorm parameter.) If the Dialog number for each station matches the actual loudness (regardless of how loud it may be) then each station will be heard at the same loudness by the listener. You can still crank your volume control to whatever level is comfortable for you, but at least all stations will be at that same level. At least those stations that are following the standard correctly, that is.

Engineers at TV stations are usually a cooperative bunch of people. Let's hope they can get together on this.

Originally posted by wojtek
Guys:

I am in Jersey City with a direct line-of-sight to the ESB (waterfront). I have always had good reception of the three majors (CBS, NBC, ABC). I use the Silver Sensor. Now have I lost NBC and ABC (a few days now).

I am lucky that the Grammys are on CBS, or my wife would not be happy at all.

Is this what the combiner is all about? What is going on? I get Channel 2, 5, 9, 11, and 13 just fine, but not NBC or ABC.

Does anybody else in North Jersey have problems with NBC and ABC right now? Are their signals stronger or weaker compared to pre-combiner era?

Originally posted by DanC-P
The thing that bugs me the most about OTA HDTV in NYC is the lack of easily accessible PBS in HD (that's a lot of abbreviations!). I can't get any PBS signal in Brooklyn, be it from Jersey (althought for a brief wonderful moment I had WNJN) or NY... I wish 13 would hurry up and join the combiner!

Have you tried NJN? They only broadcast HD in prime-time, but it's better than nothing.

You should have a stronger signal from WNBC-DT from the ESB while WABC-DT would be similar. Jersey City is in City Grade contour and not affected by the move. Further out on the grade B and Fringe contours would be affected.
We were talking about this last week at work. Antennas like WNBC-DT on the GE building are considered in 'free space', on top of a mast. I am not sure about the Conte Nast antenna for WABC-DT. However, the flat panel antennas for the digital stations from the combiner are mounted on the mast on standoffs. Not in free space and subject to mast dispersion which is frequency dependent. This means that each station will have a slightly different radiating pattern depending upon their frequency and the distance the panel is mounted from the mast.
There is an interaction that causes reflections from the radiating panel to the mast to the panel (kind of like feedback) to disperse in different directions depending upon the wavelength of the carrier. This means that some stations will be stronger than others at a distance. They will not all have the same signal strength.
When all stations are at full power, field strength measurements will be taken to verify the contours for each transmitter. Now adays this can be done by plane or helicopter. I remember driving around for days at a time to predetermined locations and taking reading...... Real fun.
Anyway, I just though some of you might be interested in a possible explanation to different signal levels from the same antenna.
George
For a better explanation
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/contour.asp

This question gets asked all the time, but I don't think it's ever been answered.

It's been about two months now since we saw the first stations come up on the combiner, yet everything is still at 1/2 power? What is going on? Will we EVER see full power? Trying to watch Enterprise on Friday night (in southwestern CT) was just a disaster, dropouts every 10 seconds. I even got back up on the roof in the freezing temps and tried to re-aim. Nothing but frustration (I'm also using channelmaster preamp/amp combo). After that I was ready to throw the whole setup out the window.

How much longer do they need to "test", or is there something else holding back the power increase (such licensing, construction, etc)?

Chris,

I am glad to hear I am not the only one adjusting my antenna to get Enterprise without breakups all the time...
I am at the point where I have my MCE PC record both the HD and the Analog because the HD is unwatchable.

I am in the Newtown area, and I keep my fingers crossed that this will be resovled before the end of enterprise....

-Maynard

George, beside "free space," "mast dispersion" and allocated frequency, if I'm correct, as a non-engineer, each station on the Combiner has a different FCC authorized level of ERP. From what I've been able to research, the maximum power levels for stations currently on the Combiner are:

WCBS-DT - 349kW
WABC-DT - 219kW
WWOR-DT - 170kW
WPIX-DT - 160 kW

I cannot find any information for WNBC-DT. When this station is at full power, what will that ERP be?

Thanks as always for your help.

Gary

I am not sure if this is my reception or something with my box (DIRECTV, Samsung). Thrilled to see the combiner done and all my ota stations coming in clear as a bell. Now I get reception, but I have lost all audio on my OTA stations. Is anyone else having this problem? Is it a combiner glitch? Heres the weird part. I get no audio on 4-1, but i get audio on 4-2. 5-1, no audio, but 5-2 audio. same for 9-1, 9-2 7-1,7-2, basically i am not getting audio on the -1's, but i get it on the -2's. Sat audio is fine. Anyone have any ideas?

All of my audio is just fine. Your receiver may be having trouble with the PSIPs. The only things that I can think of is first to re-scan channels and if that doesn't work, try to re-set the receiver, after that, pull the A.C. plug and keep it disconnected for - try 15 minutes.

I wish you luck,

Gary

Originally posted by Chriš
It's been about two months now since we saw the first stations come up on the combiner, yet everything is still at 1/2 power? I was told today that WWOR-DT and WCBS-DT are at full power. The rest are not.

Last night, for the first time, I got reception on both WPIX-DT and WWOR-DT. (The digital stations of WCBS, WNYW and WABC, have remained fairly reliable.) Both 9-1 and 11-1 broke up quite a bit with 11-1 the worst of the two. Still nothing for me on WNBC-DT but a blip of yellow in the signal meter. Anyway, neither is watchable for a long period of time yet, but it was good to see pictures on both and led me to think that progress is being made. I don't really watch much, if any, programming on the WB or UPN, but it's good to know they're there -- especially with the Yankees set for WWOR on Friday nights starting in the spring. BTW, the engineer for WWOR told me that the games will NOT be in HD.

Don't get too excited - it was raining last night!

I've been told that the amount of humidity in the air affects the propagation of digital signals.

My understanding is that WWOR-DT is already at full power - and that WPIX-DT is operating at less than full power.

I'm sure there's a lot of fine-tuning to be done at the ESB, but be prepared to think about a different antenna.

Sorry for the not so good news!

Gary

With WPIX on the combiner, reclame your old AUX antanna on the ESB,
obtain STA from the FCC for channal 12, and have a go with 125 watts.

Should be fast and cheap. :)

Originally posted by Gary Press
Don't get too excited - it was raining last night!

I've been told that the amount of humidity in the air affects the propagation of digital signals.

Gary
Maybe this is a dumb question, but if so, then why do satellite signals suffer in the rain?

s2silber:

I'm not an engineer - but here goes - different frequencies; and we're talking 22,000+ miles in space for satellites.

Where's George? We need you to wade in here!


Gord160:

Good shot.

More than likely, not only has the new transmitter been ordered, let's hope it's on its way.

With low power, 13 feels and probably also to appease the FCC, its first responsibility is to the city to which it's licensed - Newark.

Also, they station would have to incur additional costs.

The latest from the White House has reduced the funding of PBS stations conversion to digital by 25%! Ouch.

I applaud your inventive thinking!

Gary

Propagation 101
http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/propagation.htm

Basically the higher the frequency the more attenuated the signal will be with moisture of any kind. If you pick up the ARRL Antenna Handbook or UHF manual there are charts for frequency vs moisture vs attenuation.
Being that sats work in C or Ku band ~2-14 GigHz, these microwave frequencies are highly subject to outages due to rain cells. C band less susceptible. In fact, dual receive sites are needed for some affiliates to overcome heavy Ku band rain outages, Miami for instance. These sites may be 10 to 15 miles apart I believe.
Even at UHF frequencies, heavy rain will affect digital television signals more so than analog.
Just a brief explanation.
George

Originally posted by wojtek
Does anybody else in North Jersey have problems with NBC and ABC right now? Are their signals stronger or weaker compared to pre-combiner era?

I didn't get NBC at all before the combiner and still don't get it now. I got ABC just fine before the combiner, and I still get it just fine.

It really would be nice to get an update on NBC, I've read that they are at 50% (info was from this forum). Their Website is no help!

Originally posted by s2silber
especially with the Yankees set for WWOR on Friday nights starting in the spring. BTW, the engineer for WWOR told me that the games will NOT be in HD.

Boooooooooooooo (not you, s2silber, but rather the powers that be)

Originally posted by George Thompson
You should have a stronger signal from WNBC-DT from the ESB while WABC-DT would be similar. Jersey City is in City Grade contour and not affected by the move. Further out on the grade B and Fringe contours would be affected.
We were talking about this last week at work. Antennas like WNBC-DT on the GE building are considered in 'free space', on top of a mast. I am not sure about the Conte Nast antenna for WABC-DT. However, the flat panel antennas for the digital stations from the combiner are mounted on the mast on standoffs. Not in free space and subject to mast dispersion which is frequency dependent. This means that each station will have a slightly different radiating pattern depending upon their frequency and the distance the panel is mounted from the mast.
There is an interaction that causes reflections from the radiating panel to the mast to the panel (kind of like feedback) to disperse in different directions depending upon the wavelength of the carrier. This means that some stations will be stronger than others at a distance. They will not all have the same signal strength.
When all stations are at full power, field strength measurements will be taken to verify the contours for each transmitter. Now adays this can be done by plane or helicopter. I remember driving around for days at a time to predetermined locations and taking reading...... Real fun.
Anyway, I just though some of you might be interested in a possible explanation to different signal levels from the same antenna.
George
For a better explanation
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/contour.asp

Thanks, George.

I moved my Silver Sensor around, re-scanned, and actually picked up both NBC and ABC, with "good" signal strength. I guess with the combiner up and running I was expecting good reception no matter what (after all, I have an unobstructed view of the skyline). Not being able to pick up the Oscars in HD and having explain it to wife is scary:)

Originally posted by George Thompson
Propagation 101
http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/propagation.htm

Basically the higher the frequency the more attenuated the signal will be with moisture of any kind. If you pick up the ARRL Antenna Handbook or UHF manual there are charts for frequency vs moisture vs attenuation.
Being that sats work in C or Ku band ~2-14 GigHz, these microwave frequencies are highly subject to outages due to rain cells. C band less susceptible. In fact, dual receive sites are needed for some affiliates to overcome heavy Ku band rain outages, Miami for instance. These sites may be 10 to 15 miles apart I believe.
Even at UHF frequencies, heavy rain will affect digital television signals more so than analog.
Just a brief explanation.
George

George:

Always great info, thank you. I have a slightly different problem, my CBS seems to be affected by propogation , NBC hardly steady , but ABC solid and strong as well as all the rest. Wouldn't it follow that lower frequency stations would be stronger?

I lose CBS as the day progresses, and ABC never waivers...

Any thoughts?

TV JAzzman

Jazz,
Off the top of my head you seem too close to be affected by atmospherics, although not to be ruled out. I would suspect Electro-Magnetic Interference(EMI) of some sort too. We live in a highly polluted rf environment. Everything from cell phones, BPL and type 15 devices are overwhelming our spectrum. Try scanning with a general coverage receiver and listen to all the birdies, whistles, bleeps and clicks...LOL. UHF is funny and in a constant state of flux. General rule of thumb.... Get your directional antenna up high and spin it around. This may be meaningless if you have a strong rf source nearby. What can I say.
George

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2005/02/08/100/?nc=1

Originally posted by TVjazzman
George:

Always great info, thank you. I have a slightly different problem, my CBS seems to be affected by propogation , NBC hardly steady , but ABC solid and strong as well as all the rest. Wouldn't it follow that lower frequency stations would be stronger?

I lose CBS as the day progresses, and ABC never waivers...

Any thoughts?

TV JAzzman

I am across the Hudson from you in Westchester, near the Tappan Zee Bridge and definitely notice propagation effects on WCBS-DT Ch 56. A couple of nights ago when we had the rainstorm, WCBS was dropping out periodically, not from signal strength but from severe multipath. At the same time, analog stations like CH 68 which are usually received solidly, were unwatchable due to ghosting and phase cancellation effects.

I will be looking at the received DTV signals with an RF spectrum analyzer to see just how much the signals vary with propagation and weather. When I checked this morning, WCBS-DT had a strong signal (-50 dBm) with very little multipath. I will check again tonight and see if there is any difference, as it is supposed to rain again.

Mike

Originally posted by mondesign
I am across the Hudson from you in Westchester, near the Tappan Zee Bridge and definitely notice propagation effects on WCBS-DT Ch 56. A couple of nights ago when we had the rainstorm, WCBS was dropping out periodically, not from signal strength but from severe multipath. At the same time, analog stations like CH 68 which are usually received solidly, were unwatchable due to ghosting and phase cancellation effects.

I will be looking at the received DTV signals with an RF spectrum analyzer to see just how much the signals vary with propagation and weather. When I checked this morning, WCBS-DT had a strong signal (-50 dBm) with very little multipath. I will check again tonight and see if there is any difference, as it is supposed to rain again.

Mike

I have a similar problem with WCBS-DT. I use a Fusion 3 card that reports a 100% OR 32.5dB signal strength during dry weather. As soon as it rains the signal bounces all over the place and becomes unusable. I posted this issue awhile back to see if I was the only one experiencing this phenomenon.
I assume I am experiencing multipath that shows up only when everything gets wet and becomes more reflective. I also assumed that this problem was specific to my location. If others are seeing this problem please post. Mike, It will be interesting to hear your results.
Phil

Originally posted by s2silber
BTW, the engineer for WWOR told me that the games will NOT be in HD.

anyone here if YES network will be in HD anywhere this year?

Originally posted by michaelk
anyone here if YES network will be in HD anywhere this year? Nope, and the games on WWOR will be in SD as well.

Originally posted by DanC-P
Nope, and the games on WWOR will be in SD as well.

Is it crazy to think that with the launch of spaceway I & II, D* will be able to hopefully have hd games in 2006?

Also with the Sports HD CHannel on D*being open during the summer, perhaps they'll pull an occassional game for people from all the channels that broadcast their local games in HD.

Justa thought for those of us with D*

Doug

Originally posted by Phil Hightech
I have a similar problem with WCBS-DT. I use a Fusion 3 card that reports a 100% OR 32.5dB signal strength during dry weather. As soon as it rains the signal bounces all over the place and becomes unusable. I posted this issue awhile back to see if I was the only one experiencing this phenomenon.
I assume I am experiencing multipath that shows up only when everything gets wet and becomes more reflective. I also assumed that this problem was specific to my location. If others are seeing this problem please post. Mike, It will be interesting to hear your results.
Phil
Did you ever explore the possibility you might have some bad connections allowing moisture into the cabling around the connectors?

Originally posted by dswallow
Did you ever explore the possibility you might have some bad connections allowing moisture into the cabling around the connectors?

Thanks for your response. Everything is new, cable, connectors and antenna. I've been trying to experiment as best I can but the fact that the problem shows up only in the rain literally puts a damper on my scientific method. At this point, I'm sure the problem is not on my end. That's why I'm leaning toward the mulipath explanation. What's strange is that it seems I'm not the only one experiencing reception issues with WCBS-DT. I've tried a RS corner reflector and a VHF/UHF combo antenna. Both give the same result.
Today I switched to a SS-1000. I understand that it has circular polarization so it might perform differently with multipath. The next step for me will be to relocate the mast to a different part of the roof. I wasn't home for the rain this afternoon so I'll have to wait to see if anything has changed.
-Phil

Rockland County Update:

This evening , WCBS -DT is doing numbers for me in the mid to high 60's, then losing lock, then close to those numbers again, WNBC-DT is down between low to mid 40's, ( I need at least mid 50's for DT reception on Toshiba RPTV), Fox normally a solid contender at mid to high 60's is under 50 to low 40's and no lock, and WABC-DT my solid contender is pulling higher than ever at 78-82, and normally at high 60's and steady as a rock...

Fox must be testing because never have had a problem before, CBS was steady for the Grammy's at high 50's low 60's and WNBC is a usual not ready for the party.

And yet, there have been days that NBC (though rarest) has been high 50's low 60's and as I've written, CBS in the morning, is much better, ie high 50's low 60's...

Propogation? I'll have to read my materials again... New antenna, new connectors, and changes at will, I keep waiting for the word that the combiner work has ended so that i know what I have...


"And the wind cries Mary"

Originally posted by Phil Hightech
I have a similar problem with WCBS-DT. I use a Fusion 3 card that reports a 100% OR 32.5dB signal strength during dry weather. As soon as it rains the signal bounces all over the place and becomes unusable. I posted this issue awhile back to see if I was the only one experiencing this phenomenon.
I assume I am experiencing multipath that shows up only when everything gets wet and becomes more reflective. I also assumed that this problem was specific to my location. If others are seeing this problem please post. Mike, It will be interesting to hear your results.
Phil

Unfortunately I did not get home until after the rain stopped today, but even so I did see some dynamic multipath on the higher UHF channels with the analyzer tonight. Ideally a DTV signal should appear as a flat topped trace over its 5.3 MHz bandwidth. This is what I pretty much saw this morning, with only 1 or 2 dB of ripples on the flat top. When I looked tonight the signal certainly looked much different. Over the course of a few seconds, the trace would tilt in one direction by 10 dB, then develop a -15 dB notch in the middle, then reverse and tilt in the opposite direction. During all this, my STB never lost lock on the signal, so I can only assume that the disturbances a couple of nights ago were much worse when I actually experienced dropouts.

I have a feeling that we are seeing this on WCBS CH 56 since it is the highest frequency presently used for DTV in the NYC area. I did notice similar effects on the lower channels but it was much less severe and hardly noticeable by the time I got down to WNBC at CH 28.

It seems you are on the right track by changing antennas and possibly moving it to a different location on the roof. You probably have multipath at all times on WCBS, but it is usually within the range that can be compensated by the equalizer in your receiver. When the atmospheric conditions change, the multipath increases beyond what the equalizer can handle and you lose the signal.

Let us know the results of the changes with the antenna.

Mike

Originally posted by DanC-P
Nope, and the games on WWOR will be in SD as well.

Nope means you haven't heard anything?

or Nope means you heard and Yes HD will only be availible in George's private suite same as last year?

Originally posted by michaelk
Nope means you haven't heard anything?

or Nope means you heard and Yes HD will only be availible in George's private suite same as last year?
Sorry, I should have been clearer and less absolute. Although there continue to be rumors (as there were last season) about YES being carried in HD, there have been no announcements from YES or the Yankees. There is a thread about this on the YES network web site if you are interested:

http://boards.yesnetwork.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13032

TVjazzman
I'm also in Rockland County. I never had a problem with my signal strength. I'm using an attic installed RS 15-2160 (UHF yagi). 56-1 is always my stongest at 82% never had dropoffs, FOX is 77%. ABC is 75% and WOR is 68%. Was getting NBC & NJN at 63% but lost the signal for the last 3 weeks. They must have dropped the power. Never got PIX. Also getting 30-1, 40-1 , 48-1 and 68-1 at 70-75%.

I think there is a good chance that DirecTV will carry Yankee games on YES in HD -- IF they do expand the number of HD channels as they've been promising. WWOR is another matter. They simply elected not to broadcast their share of the games in HD.

i have an HD cable box from cablevision. ive had it for a year and have no problems with the audio until a month or so ago, when i noticed a hissing sound comming from the speakers. i figured it could have been the surround sound system< which is more then a few years old> so i went out and bought a new surround sound system, and i still heard a hissing sound. i also have my dvd player hooked up to my surround sound, and i dont hear a hiss then, which leads me to belive its a problem with the cable box. can anyone tell me what the problem might be and how i can fix it. email me back at dasoccerguy07@aol.com

Originally posted by dasoccerguy07
i have an HD cable box from cablevision. ive had it for a year and have no problems with the audio until a month or so ago, when i noticed a hissing sound comming from the speakers. i figured it could have been the surround sound system< which is more then a few years old> so i went out and bought a new surround sound system, and i still heard a hissing sound. i also have my dvd player hooked up to my surround sound, and i dont hear a hiss then, which leads me to belive its a problem with the cable box. can anyone tell me what the problem might be and how i can fix it. email me back at dasoccerguy07@aol.com You would probably get a better response to this question if you post it to the Cablevision NYC group here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=446219&highlight=cablevision+ny

or on the Yahoo! cablevision_digital group.

Good luck,

Dan

Originally posted by jbjbjbjb
TVjazzman
I'm also in Rockland County. I never had a problem with my signal strength. I'm using an attic installed RS 15-2160 (UHF yagi). 56-1 is always my stongest at 82% never had dropoffs, FOX is 77%. ABC is 75% and WOR is 68%. Was getting NBC & NJN at 63% but lost the signal for the last 3 weeks. They must have dropped the power. Never got PIX. Also getting 30-1, 40-1 , 48-1 and 68-1 at 70-75%.

jbjbjbjb:

Your just down the road, I'm in Chestnut Ridge, funny how so close can have such different readings. I have a 8 bow outdoor ChannelMaster, with a Winegard amplifier, previous to that arrangement, I had a high powered VHF/UHF antenna with a Winegardf pre-amp with similar results. a

Funny, I ave always had a WPIX-DT, never a problem with them whether VHF and then UHF and you never got it. We're max 3-4 miles apart... Funny how that works...Tonight, I have a strong NBC which as I have written is always questionable, very strong Fox and ABC and still lower CBS 56-1.

And your antenna is in the attic!!

The other channels you mention come in enough to register on the meter but never any signal to speak of ( 0-low 30's). Never have gotten NJN digital, NEVER!!!

Can somebody help me with a simple/dumb question.

I read somewhere that after July 2005... there are some new laws going into effect regarding HD OTA programming. Something about the legality of being able to receive it.

Can someone enlighten me on what this is all about? TIA

As of yesterday, WNBC-DT is at full power. 200KW erp with an omnidirectional pattern.
George

Originally posted by DjPiLL
Can somebody help me with a simple/dumb question.

I read somewhere that after July 2005... there are some new laws going into effect regarding HD OTA programming. Something about the legality of being able to receive it.

Can someone enlighten me on what this is all about? TIA

I believe you are referring to the Broadcast Flag requirement, which is supposed to take effect July 2005. This is something which will be included in the PSIP data by the broadcasters to prevent unauthorized content distribution via the internet. Do a search on the forum for "broadcast flag" and you will find a lot of info.

Mike

Originally posted by aup
Hi Martin!
Yes, got it. I wasn't sure in what ways you had meant that antennaweb was wrong. Doesn't appear that antenna orientation is one of them, at least in comparison to the 2150 site. Completeness is certainly an issue, although in my current situation, I don't even receive all the antennaweb stations, let alone the others listed on 2150.
Thanks again.
Chris.

Newbie here - confused again. I set up my antenna rotator and antenna so that at the 000 setting, the antenna is pointing north (according to a compass).

For example, antennaweb.org says that WPIX is 3.9 miles from my home at 70 degrees compass orientation (magnetic north) while the 2150 site says I'm also 3.9 miles but the direction 57.6 degrees (I used declination of zero). Since magnetic declination for my area is 13 degrees, I figured that if I entered the magnetic declination at the 2150 site, I'd get the 70 degrees matching antennaweb.org. Of course, when I used using 13 degree magnetic declination it came back with 44.6 degrees.

This is basically the same for all of my locals.

Can I assume that 57 degrees is where I should be pointed?

Originally posted by ElVee
Newbie here - confused again. I set up my antenna rotator and antenna so that at the 000 setting, the antenna is pointing north (according to a compass).

For example, antennaweb.org says that WPIX is 3.9 miles from my home at 70 degrees compass orientation (magnetic north) while the 2150 site says I'm also 3.9 miles but the direction 57.6 degrees (I used declination of zero). Since magnetic declination for my area is 13 degrees, I figured that if I entered the magnetic declination at the 2150 site, I'd get the 70 degrees matching antennaweb.org. Of course, when I used using 13 degree magnetic declination it came back with 44.6 degrees.

This is basically the same for all of my locals.

Can I assume that 57 degrees is where I should be pointed?
Your magnetic declination in the NY/NJ area is -13 degrees (well, roughly, it'd vary by exactly where you are, but -13 is the right range).

Originally posted by George Thompson
As of yesterday, WNBC-DT is at full power. 200KW erp with an omnidirectional pattern.
George

...and I still don't get it!! I receive all the others, just not NBC.....good thing I get it from D*. It's odd though, I guess I'm in a void of some sort??

Originally posted by dswallow
Your magnetic declination in the NY/NJ area is -13 degrees (well, roughly, it'd vary by exactly where you are, but -13 is the right range).

I apologize for being so thick.

Is antennaweb.org taking that into account when it tells me WPIX is at 70 degrees? Strictly going by a compass, should I always subtract 13 from anything antennaweb.org says?

I have an attic mounted Silver Sensor with a CM 7775 preamp connected to a dishnetwork 921 receiver. I get CBS, FOX, ABC and UPN no problem. PIX is hit or miss (mostly miss) and NBC is right next to never. My zip is 07946. Why is it that transmissions from the same general direction (NYC) can be so different on the receiving end?

Originally posted by Paperboy2003
...and I still don't get it!! I receive all the others, just not NBC.....good thing I get it from D*. It's odd though, I guess I'm in a void of some sort??

I must be in the same void. I get every other network from the combiner. No NBC-DT. Not even last night.

Using a 921 for OTA and still no NBD, mine you I live 9 mile from ESB. Is it still at freg. 28? And btw thanks for the update, you're just the messenger

Originally posted by DanC-P
Sorry, I should have been clearer and less absolute. Although there continue to be rumors (as there were last season) about YES being carried in HD, there have been no announcements from YES or the Yankees. There is a thread about this on the YES network web site if you are interested:

http://boards.yesnetwork.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13032


thanks for the link.

there used to be a thread here but the mods didnt like it so they locked it.

As of right now I am receiving WNBC-D New york at 90-100 strength on a dish 921 about 20 miles from NY. The 921 sees it at channel 28 and remaps to oo4-1

This is the firsttime I have been able to receive it.

Originally posted by George Thompson
As of yesterday, WNBC-DT is at full power. 200KW erp with an omnidirectional pattern.
George


George- you posted in a D* PQ thread that "stations" went full power.

Was that a typo or did someone else besides NBC do it?

Originally posted by ElVee
I apologize for being so thick.

Is antennaweb.org taking that into account when it tells me WPIX is at 70 degrees? Strictly going by a compass, should I always subtract 13 from anything antennaweb.org says?
With 0 magnetic declination, 2150 was telling you 57.6 degrees, so since you should have used -13, add 13 to the original value... 57.6 + 13 = 70.6 degrees.

Go to www.2150.com/broadcast and use -13 and it should be giving you around 70.6 degrees as the compass heading you want to aim at.

Since you're so close to the transmitters, it's important to get your lat/long correct to get aiming info; did you look at the street level map to ensure it did? I just ran both for my address and the aiming info came out within 0.5 degrees, so they're definitely accounting for magnetic declination automatically.

You might go to http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/jsp/Declination.jsp and double-check your magnetic declination with your exact lat/long, too.

I actually had worked out a way to do that too just haven't gotten around to updating the script on 2150.com to do it yet.

Hey dswallow,

what a cool website. Thanks!!

I can't receive WNBC either. I live in Bethlehem CT 76 miles from ESB. I know this is kind of the limit for digital signals but I have good height and line of sight from my house to NYC. WWOR and WCBS register around 90 strength on my Voom receiver with 100 being the top limit. Also get WABC and WNYW with no problem either even thought they are not on the combiner. Don't have multi-path issues out here in the country, no tall buildings. How could WNBC have a different range than the others if they are broadcasting from same antenna. Signal bounces from around 50 to 75. WPIX is around 75 right now. Hoping to get that when they boost power as i need 85 signal strength to lock signal. I even get channel 68 although I am not sure where there antenna is. Sometimes even get NJN from NJ.

WABC is on the Combiner.

This has been discussed numerous times here - although all stations using WCBS-DT's antenna on the ESB, known as the Combiner project, each
transmits at a different frequency at with different FCC authorized
power. And what I'm learning is that transmitting digital signals on UHF many times lacks logic and can drive you crazy!

Gary

Originally posted by Gary Press
And what I'm learning is that transmitting digital signals on UHF many times lacks logic and can drive you crazy!

Gary [/B]

I read something recently that broadcasters will have to decide whether they want to keep their new digital channel assignment after analog broadcasting is discontinued, or transmit DTV on their old analog channel. They will have to return one of their assigned channels to the FCC. Given the seeming unreliability of DTV on UHF, I wonder if any of the NYC broadcasters are considering returning to their old VHF channels for DTV in the future?

I get amazingly reliable reception of WPIX-DT on VHF channel 12 even though they are only running an ERP of 125 Watts, while I get occasional dropouts of the UHF stations with ERPs over a quarter million Watts!

It would be interesting to see what the DTV coverage and reliability would be like if they could broadcast on their VHF channels, with ERPs comparable to their present analog allocations.

Mike

Mike -

Yes, broadcasters will be given the option of which allocation they want.

I've read, and heard directly from some station engineers, that they will not necessarily elect to use their VHF allocations.

There seems to be considerable problems with digital VHF transmission. It may be a bigger problem in the lower end of the band - channels 2-6. Not sure. I've read about major problems in Chicago where CBS (WBBM-DT) is on channel 3.

Never have been able to get reception on channel 12. Not sure if WPIX-DT is at full power yet on channel 33.

One good thing about UHF, though, is that the antennas are smaller!

Gary

Originally posted by newhdcrt
As of right now I am receiving WNBC-D New york at 90-100 strength on a dish 921 about 20 miles from NY. The 921 sees it at channel 28 and remaps to oo4-1

This is the firsttime I have been able to receive it. Still no luck with WNBC. I went into the channel strengh menu and inputted 28 , with no signal strengh for that frequency. Thanks for reply, will keep on checking.

Originally posted by Gary Press
Mike -

Yes, broadcasters will be given the option of which allocation they want.

I've read, and heard directly from some station engineers, that they will not necessarily elect to use their VHF allocations.

There seems to be considerable problems with digital VHF transmission. It may be a bigger problem in the lower end of the band - channels 2-6. Not sure. I've read about major problems in Chicago where CBS (WBBM-DT) is on channel 3.

Never have been able to get reception on channel 12. Not sure if WPIX-DT is at full power yet on channel 33.

One good thing about UHF, though, is that the antennas are smaller!

Gary


I found this on the radio-info.com message board:

<<<New York City Messages>>> << Previous | Index | Next >>

Subject: Digital Channel Elections for New York
Posted by: Trip Ericson
Posts: 484
Status: Offline
Posted on: 02/12/05 11:50 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Digital channel elections wound up on the 10th. Here's how NYC looks:

WCBS-?? (Elected to move on to round 2)
WNBC-28
WNYW-44
WABC-7
WWOR-9
WPIX-11
WNET-13
WLIW-21
WNYE-24
WPXN-31
WXTV-40
WSAH-42
WNJU-36
WEDW-49
WNJN-51
WTBY-27
WLIW-?? (Forced to move on to round 2)
WNJB-8
WRNN-48
WMBC-18
WFME-29
WFTY-23
WFUT-?? (Forced to move on to round 2)

- Trip


Seems that the decisions for the final DTV channel assignments have already been made!

Originally posted by dswallow
With 0 magnetic declination, 2150 was telling you 57.6 degrees, so since you should have used -13, add 13 to the original value... 57.6 + 13 = 70.6 degrees.

Go to www.2150.com/broadcast and use -13 and it should be giving you around 70.6 degrees as the compass heading you want to aim at.

Since you're so close to the transmitters, it's important to get your lat/long correct to get aiming info; did you look at the street level map to ensure it did? I just ran both for my address and the aiming info came out within 0.5 degrees, so they're definitely accounting for magnetic declination automatically.

You might go to http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/jsp/Declination.jsp and double-check your magnetic declination with your exact lat/long, too.

I actually had worked out a way to do that too just haven't gotten around to updating the script on 2150.com to do it yet.

Thanks so much.

Belive it or not, for a few minutes, I was able to pick up channel 3 from Philadelphia with the CM4228. That's about 78 miles from me. Pretty cool.

Thanks again for the help.

Originally posted by mondesign
I found this on the radio-info.com message board:

<<<New York City Messages>>> << Previous | Index | Next >>

Subject: Digital Channel Elections for New York
Posted by: Trip Ericson
Posts: 484
Status: Offline
Posted on: 02/12/05 11:50 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Digital channel elections wound up on the 10th. Here's how NYC looks:

WLIW-21
...
WTBY-27
WLIW-?? (Forced to move on to round 2)
WNJB-8

- Trip


Seems that the decisions for the final DTV channel assignments have already been made!

I always manage to mix up WLIW and WLNY... sorry about that.

And even more sorry I forgot to post it here... I KNEW I forgot to post it somewhere.

- Trip

Well bye bye NBC. I have not been able to lock again since Saturday. Signal is currently fluctuating between 0 and 70. Obviously the work on the combiner is not completed.

Is there any kind of Kw/Miles ratio to figure out what signals one can expect to recieve?

I can occasionally pick up channel 3 from Philadelphia (770Kw, 78 miles), yet can't pick up WNET (2.6 Kw, 4 miles), WLIW (80-92 Kw, 32 miles) and WLNY (30 Kw, 60 miles).

Originally posted by ElVee
Is there any kind of Kw/Miles ratio to figure out what signals one can expect to recieve?

I can occasionally pick up channel 3 from Philadelphia (770Kw, 78 miles), yet can't pick up WNET (2.6 Kw, 4 miles), WLIW (80-92 Kw, 32 miles) and WLNY (30 Kw, 60 miles).

You would also have to take height of the transmitting and receiving antennas into accout.

Does anybody know the status of WNYW?
Have they sucessfully made the transition to 990kW?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so. It is difficult for me to be sure with my crazy multipath reception - it changes hourly!

Yesterday afternoon, WNYW-DT was totally off the air. I know this by way of the DirecTV feed, Channel 88 being absent.

If I hear anything from some friends, I'll post the information.

Gary

Originally posted by ElVee
Is there any kind of Kw/Miles ratio to figure out what signals one can expect to recieve?

I can occasionally pick up channel 3 from Philadelphia (770Kw, 78 miles), yet can't pick up WNET (2.6 Kw, 4 miles), WLIW (80-92 Kw, 32 miles) and WLNY (30 Kw, 60 miles).
I don't want to sound like a nerd, duh, but you need to use the Longley-Rice method to figure that out.
http://www.softwright.com/faq/engineering/Free%20Space%20Field%20and%20Loss%20Calculations.html

Hope you were a math wiz. I'm not.
GT

It's a little after 4 p.m. and WNYW-DT is once again down. So someone is working on the ESB to bring us a stronger signal!

Gary

Just as an update, I sent the following e-mail to the YES network recently :


Good Morning,

I’ve heard differing info regarding the possibility of YES carrying the 2005 season in High Definition. I understand that while you might broadcast it in HD sometime this season, it would still be up to the providers to pick up that signal. Do you have any plans on offering an HD signal for this season, and are there any specific providers who’ve shown an interest in picking it up?


I’ve had HD for 4 years and look forward to being able to consistently watch the Yankees in HD!


Thanks in advance for your response.


And I just received this response :

Yes, soon we will be in HD. Hang in there.

I know that this is the OTA forum, but since a lot of people were posting about it recently, I thought I should post.

Doug

Just as an update, I sent the following e-mail to the YES network recently :


Good Morning,

I’ve heard differing info regarding the possibility of YES carrying the 2005 season in High Definition. I understand that while you might broadcast it in HD sometime this season, it would still be up to the providers to pick up that signal. Do you have any plans on offering an HD signal for this season, and are there any specific providers who’ve shown an interest in picking it up?


I’ve had HD for 4 years and look forward to being able to consistently watch the Yankees in HD!


Thanks in advance for your response.


And I just received this response :

Yes, soon we will be in HD. Hang in there.

Kinda vague, but it's better than nothing...

Doug

no, it is not better than nothing:)

Paperboy, Yes told us this last season...still waiting!

Tony

Sounds to me like there won't be HD by opening day but thats just the impression i get.

So you're saying that I shouldn't hold my breath??

Even if they do it, it's still a matter of carriage...


Sorry for the dble post...please delete the first one...my bad

Originally posted by Paperboy2003
So you're saying that I shouldn't hold my breath??


well, this is ALWAYS good advice!

:)

I know that this is the OTA forum, but since a lot of people were posting about it recently, I thought I should post.

Doug Could we move this to the NYC TWC thread please?

Originally posted by MLM
Could we move this to the NYC TWC thread please? Hmm... why don't we just alter it to another good question that is more on-topic? Why the heck is WWOR not going to broadcast their OTA Yankee games in HD? Yankee stadium apparently has HD cameras/equipment. WWOR has the ability to broadcast HD... What's the hold-up? Could an email campaign to the station help?

Disclosure: I'm a die-hard Red Sox fan, but I'd like to be able to watch the Yankees in HD!

Originally posted by DanC-P
Hmm... why don't we just alter it to another good question that is more on-topic? Why the heck is WWOR not going to broadcast their OTA Yankee games in HD? Yankee stadium apparently has HD cameras/equipment. WWOR has the ability to broadcast HD... What's the hold-up? Could an email campaign to the station help?

Disclosure: I'm a die-hard Red Sox fan, but I'd like to be able to watch the Yankees in HD!

Another one coming out of the wood work! I never saw one "B" cap in the NYC area over the last ten years but now everyone is a Red Sox fan!:)

Originally posted by dm145
Another one coming out of the wood work! I never saw one "B" cap in the NYC area over the last ten years but now everyone is a Red Sox fan!:) I've noticed that too. For what it's worth I wear my sox cap all the time - including to every game at Yankee stadium. I also have a "enter the heart of darkness head-on" ritual which involves getting drinks in my sox gear at Yankee Tavern before every Yankees/Sox game. I've done this dozens of times and never had a bad experience.

I had a very kind engineer at WNJN explain to me that one possible reason for my brief ability to get their HD signal was "tropospheric ducting". It's a phenomenon that allows UHF (and some other) signals to travel far further than normal. There is a site that has tropospheric ducting forecasts and it looks like there will be a fairly active spot over NJ/NY this coming Monday. I'm going to try to get WNJN again on Monday. Here's the site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

and here's an explanation of the phenomenon: http://www.angelfire.com/sc/scannerpost/tropo.html

Dan

Let's keep on topic - OTA issues.

Thank you, Moderator.

Gary Press

Originally posted by Gary Press
Thank you, Moderator.

Gary Press Sorry guys, in the other threads I frequent, folks don't mind an OT post or two. I'll keep it strictly to OTA talk here.

Originally posted by DanC-P
I had a very kind engineer at WNJN explain to me that one possible reason for my brief ability to get their HD signal was "tropospheric ducting". It's a phenomenon that allows UHF (and some other) signals to travel far further than normal. There is a site that has tropospheric ducting forecasts and it looks like there will be a fairly active spot over NJ/NY this coming Monday. I'm going to try to get WNJN again on Monday. Here's the site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

and here's an explanation of the phenomenon: http://www.angelfire.com/sc/scannerpost/tropo.html

Dan

Way, way, WAY back when there was very little good about OTA reception in NYC (2003-early 2004ish) I would futz around with my rotor....and from Central NJ I was able to pick up a few PBS stations out in Connecticut. Using Doug's 2150 site I was able to deduce the exact stations based on the station symbol in the lower corner of the screen. And, from Central NJ when I would turn South towards Philly/Delaware....I ACTUALLY picked up stations from as far away as DC/Maryland IIRC. I'm not sure if my posts were in this thread.....or the Central NJ thread. Needless to say since the OTA "transmissions" picked up in the NYC market, I've done no duct surfing in months....but it is possible to pick up some "fun" stuff. If you have the time....and nothing else is on.

OVernight (midnight to early AM) was the best time for me in my location.

I'll try and find my posts on the subject to figure out the EXACT stations I picked up. And IIRC, it was in the winter/fall months vs the Summer. But I could be wrong....:p

Found this one....but it was from the summer....so scratch my winter/fall tropo memories:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2436504#post2436504

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2437611#post2437611

And then this one was from fall when I picked up Maryland digitals....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2962787#post2962787

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2962904#post2962904

Give it a shot---having a rotor helps IMMENSELY....as does the 2150 site listings.

Lost all of my ota digital channels. I'm using a dish 921 which is reported to be flaky, but my experience with this unit and other dish receivers is, that when it gets flaky it's due to problems with the guide information. Either ota or sat.

Other than that it works fine.

I was flipping through NJN-HD on Wednesday and the picture quality on the HD subchannel was horrible. Did it again on Thursday and Friday, and same deal. The channel looks like it's in SD, but my guide info says the show is being brodcast in HD. Anyone have any idea/clue why this is occurring.....?:confused:

I don't know what program you were watching but sometimes the programming is upconverted from SD.

You'd have to be a bit more specific and I could check it on my Samsung SIR-T150.

Originally posted by rlindabury
I don't know what program you were watching but sometimes the programming is upconverted from SD.

You'd have to be a bit more specific and I could check it on my Samsung SIR-T150.

I have no clue what the programs were. I didn't catch them from the beginning and I don't get program info on my receiver for NJN-HD. Sorry.

And the programs did not look upconverted from SD. I've seen programs that have been upconverted from SD. Not even close. These looked to be IN SD, with horrible PQ.

Even NJN's "HD" programs look like crap because they multicast 2 SD and 1 HD! They use to be reference quality but now it is a joke!

Originally posted by dm145
Even NJN's "HD" programs look like crap because they multicast 2 SD and 1 HD! They use to be reference quality but now it is a joke!

Is that "bad" HD recent? I recall that even about a month ago the picture quality on the HD stuff was still very good. I hadn't flipped to NJN in a while and was surprised at how bad it looked this past week.

Still no WNBC, any idea how long before they get it fixed?

It's 3:33 p.m. and WNBC-DT is coming in loud and clear - no problem here.

The combiner's antenna, WCBS-DT, I believe, is omni-directional, so although I am northeast of the transmitter, and I guess you're southeast, there really shouldn't be a big difference.

It could be that due to multipath? your location and the antenna you're using - they're just not hitting it off. WNBC-DT is not changing - so that means you've got to change - your antenna and or its position.

Gary

Can anyone recommend an antenna installer in the Floral Park, Queens area?

He/She should atleast know what HD is :)
Any price qoute/info would be appreciated.

Thanks

I've had these guys do 2 installs for me and was very happy with their work. : nyssdigital (not sure about the 'links rules' so just fill in the beginning and the end)

This is the second Sunday that I've lost most of the OTA channels except CBS. Today I was unable to receive 4.01,4.02, 5.01, 5.02, 9.01, 9.02 and 11.01. I received 7.01 and 7.02 poorly earlier today, lost them and recently again received them with no breakups. CBS has been solid throughout. Iwas able to receive all channels until today. No problems during the week. The same problem occurred two weeks ago on Sunday when I suddenly was unable to receive Fox for the Daytona 500. The signal returned about one quarter through the race.

Current equipment: Channel Master 4248 with CM 7777 preamp, CM 9521a rotator. Mitsubishi Promise Module ,WS65907. I've rescanned multiple times, reoriented the antenna, resynced the rotator, visual inspected antenna orientation and everything seems to be OK. I also had a problem with Fox on Super Bowl Sunday. There is no signal strength meter on the Promise Module.

Has anyone else noticed any problems???? I'm beginning to wonder if I'm having local interference problems since my problems seem to only occur on Sundays. No problems for any other days of the week.

Mike, I am experiencing nothing like you describe from western Suffolk. If the problem IS interference it may be an overload problem. I assume your antenna is roof mounted but even if not I would remove the pre-amp and see what happens. You might also want to check all your connections problems. Your kind of close to need the preamp unless you have a very long cable run down to the receiver. What happens if you move the antenna around during the trouble?

Originally posted by netman
Mike, I am experiencing nothing like you describe from western Suffolk. If the problem IS interference it may be an overload problem. I assume your antenna is roof mounted but even if not I would remove the pre-amp and see what happens. You might also want to check all your connections problems. Your kind of close to need the preamp unless you have a very long cable run down to the receiver. What happens if you move the antenna around during the trouble?

Antenna ( and preamp) is mounted about 15' above the top of a split level. Cable run RG6QS about 75' (< 1 yr old).

No change in reception with rotation of antenna.
Problem ONLY on Sundays. No problem any other day of the week.

Never a problem with CBS which is usually the strongest station. Therefore I didn't think it would be overload from the preamp.

I thought that maybe there was a problem with the Promise Module handling the new FCC changes in regard to the PSIP information. (AVS forum thread) However that would not explain the problem only occurring on Sundays.

After my wife finishes watching the Oscars I'm going to reboot the Promise Module. I don't really think that that will solve my problem.

I'm puzzled. I've had more problems since the combiner was activated than before.

I lost all of my ota channels yesterday. They all came back today except for nbc and fox.

Originally posted by dm145
Even NJN's "HD" programs look like crap because they multicast 2 SD and 1 HD! They use to be reference quality but now it is a joke!

I think you're generalizing here.

Even though NJN broadcasts 2 SD and 1 HD channel at 8pm, the HD is still sent out at 14Mb/s. The full spectrum that can be used for all the channels is 19Mb/s. Two SD channels are turned off at 8pm to free up bandwidth for the HD.

The ONLY reason you'd be seeing poor HD quality is because of some kind of mistake made in the programming, a setting error or a hardware issue.

Originally posted by UroDoc
Antenna ( and preamp) is mounted about 15' above the top of a split level. Cable run RG6QS about 75' (< 1 yr old).

No change in reception with rotation of antenna.
Problem ONLY on Sundays. No problem any other day of the week.
I'm puzzled. I've had more problems since the combiner was activated than before.


You may want to look at an analog UHF station using the antenna to see what you see; you may get some insight as to what is happening. I agree with the assessment. Reception issues that follow a schedule are often interference problems. Also consider removing the pre-amp; the pre-amp can be working in concert with an interference source.

Originally posted by rlindabury
I think you're generalizing here.

Even though NJN broadcasts 2 SD and 1 HD channel at 8pm, the HD is still sent out at 14Mb/s. The full spectrum that can be used for all the channels is 19Mb/s. Two SD channels are turned off at 8pm to free up bandwidth for the HD.

The ONLY reason you'd be seeing poor HD quality is because of some kind of mistake made in the programming, a setting error or a hardware issue. For what it's worth, during the week-long period in which I was picking up NJN's HD programming I thought the PQ was phenomenal. I watched a show about Hawaii that was stunning. Dan

Originally posted by netman
You may want to look at an analog UHF station using the antenna to see what you see; you may get some insight as to what is happening. I agree with the assessment. Reception issues that follow a schedule are often interference problems. Also consider removing the pre-amp; the pre-amp can be working in concert with an interference source.

Interesting followup this morning. I rebooted the Promise Module last night. No change in reception. Tried again this morning and I still could only receive WCBS and WABC. Still no reception WNBC, Fox, UPN, WB.

I rotated my antenna to 317 degrees (normally set at 283) and suddenly I picked up all the missing stations. However at this setting I now LOST WCBS!!!

If all the stations are now at the ESB why would there be a 34 degree variation between WCBS and the rest. According to antennaweb.org the correct angle is 283 degrees. As of about 3 weeks ago I could receive all stations at 283. Visible inspection of the antenna indicates the angles are correct.

Is there something going on at the ESB which would change the radiation patterns?

As described earlier in this thread, there is. The radiation patterns are frequency dependent, but not to the degree you describe. It almost sounds like you are getting a reflection that is stronger than the direct freespace signal. Try looking for the analog signals as mentioned before. Digital UHF is a strange animal and prone to all sorts of anomalies.
George

Originally posted by UroDoc
Interesting followup this morning. I rebooted the Promise Module last night. No change in reception. Tried again this morning and I still could only receive WCBS and WABC. Still no reception WNBC, Fox, UPN, WB.

I rotated my antenna to 317 degrees (normally set at 283) and suddenly I picked up all the missing stations. However at this setting I now LOST WCBS!!!

If all the stations are now at the ESB why would there be a 34 degree variation between WCBS and the rest. According to antennaweb.org the correct angle is 283 degrees. As of about 3 weeks ago I could receive all stations at 283. Visible inspection of the antenna indicates the angles are correct.

Is there something going on at the ESB which would change the radiation patterns?

Which way is that water tower from your house? Just an odd thought.

I'm just south of Old Country Road in the Salisbury area of Westbury. I don't know of any water towers in my direct line of site. The smoke stack from the incinerator is south of me. Eisenhower Park is to my west.

I also have an analog VHF-UHF antenna which is pointed at approximately 283 degrees and I receive multiple UHF channels well (13, 25, 31, 47 etc). Mounted on same antenna pole but below CM 4248 and not using rotator)

I used to get WOR at about 65% (after the combiner work was completed) but now get zero. Not sure when this happened because I was away for a couple weeks, but seems to be the last couple of weeks. Is it them or me? I get WOR on the sub channel of WNYW, but that's it. Can someone confirm what channel WOR is on for me? Thanks.

Originally posted by CPanther95
Let's keep on topic - OTA issues.
i know i'm a little late- sorry to go back-

But where are we supposed to discuss YES Network in HD? THe mods locked a thread that was specifically about YES in HD and said to discuss it someplace else. I have D* so I dont want to have to read 100's of posts in the TW thread just to see when the cable people will get YES. I'm not aware of a D* in New York thread.

Not trying to be a PIA, but seems the mods didn't think through locking the YES thread.....

The mystery continues.

Tonight all stations are coming in at the normal antenna orientation of 283 degrees. This morning only WCBS and WABC were coming in. All the others were at 317 degerees.

I'm stumped.

A second minor issue. The WB (33.3 and 33.4) are not remapping to 11.1 etc. It has been like this for several weeks. I think several pages back someone had the same problem but I think they said that it was in reference to their directv guide info.

Is any one having a problem with WB being remapped??

Does anyone have the contact information (phone etc) to reach tech support at the WB??

Hey Uro,

What kind of HD reception do you get from the fixed VHF-UHF antenna?

Originally posted by netman
Hey Uro,

What kind of HD reception do you get from the fixed VHF-UHF antenna?

I haven't used the Radio Shack Vu-190 VHF-UHF antenna for HD for quite some time. It currently feeds 5 analog TVs througout the house. (no cable, no satellite) It also has a CM 7777 preamp. Initially all tvs were feed by the VU-190 including the Promise module and I was able to receive WCBS in HD. Most of the other channels were not transmitting at that time. I subsequently got the CM 4248, CM9521a rotator, and ran RG6QS throughout. The VU-190 has a separate lead to the Mitsubishi WS65907 for analog signals.

I think I might do a test this weekend and attach the VHF-UHF Radio Shack antenna to the Promise Module and test my HD reception with that antenna.

At least two of us with Dell W4200HD's on LI are having difficulty locking CBS. All other stations seem to come in fine, and the other one of us has an HDTV Wonder card for his PC, and CBS comes in fine on that with the same antenna input. Comes in strongly, even.

So, I'm wondering, is there anything different about CBS's signal than anyone else's? I understand that there are several formats which an ATSC tuner must decode, and I wonder if CBS uses a different format than other locals.

Thanks for any insight. -John

WB is still not remapping to 11.1 etc. No PSIP information. Is anyone else having this problem or is it unique to the Mitsubishi Promise module? All other stations are mapping correctly.

Did anyone else lose Fox tonight during House? I only got about 10 minutes on my HDTiVo.

Originally posted by dturturro
Did anyone else lose Fox tonight during House? I only got about 10 minutes on my HDTiVo. No issues on the D* feed. Another great episode too. I hope this show gets renewed for next year.

Originally posted by jgrahamiii
At least two of us with Dell W4200HD's on LI are having difficulty locking CBS. All other stations seem to come in fine, and the other one of us has an HDTV Wonder card for his PC, and CBS comes in fine on that with the same antenna input. Comes in strongly, even.

So, I'm wondering, is there anything different about CBS's signal than anyone else's? I understand that there are several formats which an ATSC tuner must decode, and I wonder if CBS uses a different format than other locals.

Thanks for any insight. -John

CBS was a little funky for me out in Selden with the ATSC tuner on my Sony HD300 receiver during that race show that my wife likes to watch. I should have checked the built in tuner on my Sony RPTV, since the two tuners reject signals differently. I'll let you know tomorrow.

NBC is back for me.

Hi

I tried reading through this whole thread, and there have been so many changes, I'm getting a headache! So please forgive me for these very newbie-ish questions...

Can I get OTA HDTV in Manhattan? I live in an apt building on E 54th Street, with a North facing window and no access to the roof.

If so, what channels can I expect? What equipment should I get? Should I give in and just sign up for cable? ;-)

Thanks in advance for sharing

Well...north facing window is a problem. The only thing in your favor is that digital UHF signals are so unpredictable that you might very well be able to get some reception by way of multipath (bounce) signals.

I use, with some success, an indoor antenna known as the Silver Sensor - it can be found on the Internet for anywhere from $20+ to $30 dollars or so.

I live in the East 60s and the window I use faces west, so I'm able to orient the antenna, on a windowsill, to the south. Big difference from your location.

See if you can return the antenna if it just doesn't pick up enough stations.

You also can try a Radio Shack bow tie antenna that has also received some good reviews.

Unfortunately, you may very well have to bite the bullet to go cable.

I wish you well.

Gary

Originally posted by UroDoc
WB is still not remapping to 11.1 etc. No PSIP information. Is anyone else having this problem or is it unique to the Mitsubishi Promise module? All other stations are mapping correctly.

I have the DISH 811 and WPIX-HD maps over to 11.1 and 11.2 both with PSIP info. The problem may just be specific to your receiver.

On the other hand, I have UPN map over to 9.1 but with no PSIP info, despite have rescanned the channel numerous times, so I'm assuming it's a problem with the receiver and not the station itself.

Originally posted by GRN
I have the DISH 811 and WPIX-HD maps over to 11.1 and 11.2 both with PSIP info. The problem may just be specific to your receiver.

On the other hand, I have UPN map over to 9.1 but with no PSIP info, despite have rescanned the channel numerous times, so I'm assuming it's a problem with the receiver and not the station itself.

Thanks GRN.

Does anybody know the contact phone number for tech support at WPIX?? About 2 years ago I think one of the technicians was on a thread at AVS but I'm not sure which one and how to reach him.

Originally posted by UroDoc - WB is still not remapping to 11.1 etc. No PSIP information. Is anyone else having this problem or is it unique to the Mitsubishi Promise module? All other stations are mapping correctly.


I am having the same problem with my HD-Tivo- tried clearing and rescanning many times, still no info for 11-1DT !

Wayne

My DirecTV Samsung SIR-TS360 is remappig channel and guide to 11.1 just fine...problems may be models specific.

NLN 50.5 only appears for me on very rare occasions. Is THIS a broadcast issue of a problem with my receiver???

PS: I can see the power and have a perfect signal strength.

There's been some conflicting reports about NBC - is it at full power yet. I can get everything else without problems but no luck with NBC. Just wondering if I should start fooling with the antenna if it is at full power or just wait if it is going to increase

In commack by the way (long island - about 35 miles from ESB I think). Have an 811 (E* blows) and can get cbs, abc, fox, 11.1, 9.1, LI PBS, and some spanish channels

D

Originally posted by HDugan
NLN 50.5 only appears for me on very rare occasions. Is THIS a broadcast issue of a problem with my receiver???

PS: I can see the power and have a perfect signal strength. The same thing happens to me with the Zenith HDR230. The last time I checked was Monday night; the receiver had a sufficient signal, but no picture or audio. (This happens on all the sub-channels that NJN uses.)

Another bust for me last night with SmallVille on the WB. I switched to UPN channel 9-1 and same problems. Was the combiner just running all channels last night at a lower power?

I'm trying to keep up but worried i missed it-

Is UPN full power yet?

Does anyone know if WNJN is broadcasting at its full authorized power?
Reception seems weaker than it was in the past with more dropouts. They seem to be working on things, as Ch 51 now remaps to 50.1-50.5 instead of 52.1-52.5

I guess I really want to know if I have to improve my antenna system, or be patient and wait until they improve their signal.

Mike

Originally posted by mondesign
Does anyone know if WNJN is broadcasting at its full authorized power?
Reception seems weaker than it was in the past with more dropouts. They seem to be working on things, as Ch 51 now remaps to 50.1-50.5 instead of 52.1-52.5

I guess I really want to know if I have to improve my antenna system, or be patient and wait until they improve their signal.

Mike

Mike, I wouldn't play with your antenna just yet. I had been getting NJN loud and clear on 52 1 through 5. Now for about the last week, I get nothing, at least after 8 pm when 52.5 usually does HD.

Well after looking back I think that NBC is at full power because if George says it than I think its got to have some weight behind it

Dated 2/18
Originally posted by George Thompson
As of yesterday, WNBC-DT is at full power. 200KW erp with an omnidirectional pattern.
George


OK than - time to start the "find the signal" game

From what I understand, all channels on the Combiner have been transmitting at full power. Whether at times a station might have reduced its power for technical reasons, I don't know.

Don't have definitive word about WNYW-DT (not on the Combiner) the station had hoped to be at an extremely increased power level by Super Bowl time, but that didn't happen.

Gary

Originally posted by Gary Press
From what I understand, all channels on the Combiner have been transmitting at full power. Whether at times a station might have reduced its power for technical reasons, I don't know.

Don't have definitive word about WNYW-DT (not on the Combiner) the station had hoped to be at an extremely increased power level by Super Bowl time, but that didn't happen.

Gary

thanks.

That's what i've been trying to follow.

Interesting...
... NOAA all hazards radio broadcasts from New York City has been
returned to service...

To accommodate a construction project in progress at Rockefeller
center... power had been turned off to the existing transmitter. NOAA
National Weather Service electronic technicians have now installed a
temporary transmitter in a new location. Although returned to
service... the power has been reduced from 500 to 300 Watts from
this temporary transmitter.

Originally posted by WAYNEG
I am having the same problem with my HD-Tivo- tried clearing and rescanning many times, still no info for 11-1DT !

Wayne

You don't need to rescan. Just clear locals and go into Channels You Receive and manually add 11-1.

Originally posted by dcarpa
There's been some conflicting reports about NBC - is it at full power yet. I can get everything else without problems but no luck with NBC. Just wondering if I should start fooling with the antenna if it is at full power or just wait if it is going to increase

In commack by the way (long island - about 35 miles from ESB I think). Have an 811 (E* blows) and can get cbs, abc, fox, 11.1, 9.1, LI PBS, and some spanish channels

D I have the same situation as you! I just wanted to know if NBC is at it's full power (I read from other post that it is). The reason is that I don't want to call the antenna Guy until he is really needed. I just hope that when I do tunein NBC I don't lose too many of my other signals. BTW I have a Dishnet 921 receiver which is still being software upgraded.

Originally posted by jcord51
I have the same situation as you! I just wanted to know if NBC is at it's full power (I read from other post that it is). The reason is that I don't want to call the antenna Guy until he is really needed. I just hope that when I do tunein NBC I don't lose too many of my other signals. BTW I have a Dishnet 921 receiver which is still being software upgraded.

For what it's worth: I have the DISH 811. I live out in Hempstead, Nassau County. Prior to the combiner hookup, I could not get NBC-DT at all. Since NBC went on the combiner, I have been getting it at 70% (on a scale of 0-100), consistently strong, no breakups, even during the recent snowstorms and heavy rain. I haven't lost it once since it went on the combiner, and I never adjusted my antenna. So my own personal experience would lead me to believe that NBC-DT is at full power on the combiner.

I also don't get WNBC-DT (using a Samsung SIRT165). Trying from 06811. WABC-DT(45), and WNYW-DT(44) are reliable. WCBS-DT(56) almost always pulls through. WWOR-DT(38) sometimes. WPIX-DT(33) hardly ever, but I have seen it a few times. Never seen a picture on WNBC-DT(28). Right now, have a big roof antenna hopefully pointed at ESB and a winegard preamp, but if this is as good as it gets I suppose I'll have to get a new preamp, maybe a distribution amp too, reorient the antenna. The antenna is huge, but maybe that will have to get bigger too.

Originally posted by mondesign
Does anyone know if WNJN is broadcasting at its full authorized power?
Reception seems weaker than it was in the past with more dropouts. They seem to be working on things, as Ch 51 now remaps to 50.1-50.5 instead of 52.1-52.5

I guess I really want to know if I have to improve my antenna system, or be patient and wait until they improve their signal.

Mike

NJN is operating at the same power they've been operating at since they started broadcasting Digital. However, there are some power boosts in the works.

The problem with the remapping to the wrong channel was an operator error on NJN's side. I believe it's been addressed and you should re-scan.

People are working on various things related to the digital broadcasts so there will probably be intermittant issues.

Anyway, here's the tower/power listing with information on the upcoming power increases:

WNJN-DT Ch. 51 Montclair: 177Kw Now -> 200Kw Later
WNJB-DT Ch. 8 New Brunswick: 6Kw Now -> 11Kw Summer '05 -> 20Kw Later
WNJT-DT Ch. 43 Trenton: 46Kw
WNJS-DT Ch. 22 Camden: 20Kw Now -> 163Kw Summer '05 -> 198Kw Later

Realize that VHF doesn't need as much power and that's why the lower Kw numbers for Ch. 8.

Why does this station broadcast nothing in HD?

WLIW use to show HD but they decided not to well over a year ago.

Originally posted by Gary Press
From what I understand, all channels on the Combiner have been transmitting at full power. Whether at times a station might have reduced its power for technical reasons, I don't know.

Don't have definitive word about WNYW-DT (not on the Combiner) the station had hoped to be at an extremely increased power level by Super Bowl time, but that didn't happen.

Gary

good to know... I still get some drop out on UPN and WB and I did not notice any inprovement in signal since January

Hello,

I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a two story house, with lots of trees around.

CBS is driving me nuts.

I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.

Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith DTV 1080.

The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor. That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.

How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the signal quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.

Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better. Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on the roof but it is still working quite well.

Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is the channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a channel scan but it does not fix it.

Some troubleshooting help needed. I'm in Oceanside on the south shore of LI about 25 miles ESE from NYC. I have a roof antenna that came with the house and don't know make/model. The antenna is oriented towards where the WTC was. 2 coax leads come from the antenna. The one I'm using runs to the far side of my house before entering. This coax has 2 inline splitters (using antenna to feed 2 tv's plus fm radio for stereo) plus connections at 2 wall plates (where it enters the house from outside and where it emerges from the wall behind the tv). I understand that all these connections can cause some signal loss that may or may not be recoverable by adding a preamp. Oh I'm using a Samsung SIRTS360 for Dtv plus OTA reception. Here's my question. Since I first hooked up the coax antenna lead to the Samsung 360 I have received CBS 2.1 without fail no matter what the weather was like. Occasionally I'd get 4.1. Since everything has gone on the combiner I still get 2.1, 4.1, 4.2 come in sometimes, 5.1 and 5.2 sometimes, 7.1 sometimes, 9.1 and 11.1 sometimes. And I get alot of the digital spanish stations which I don't care about. Last night no 4.1,4.2,7.1 while 5.1 and 5.2 came in with some break ups and pixelation (2.1 rock solid). The previous day I had 4.1, 4.2 and 2.1 but nothing else. And over the weekend had 2.1, 7.1, 9.1 and nothing else. Since I get 2.1 all the time with no breakups I'm guessing that antenna orientation is not the problem. Does it sound like I need a preamp?? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Alexvd
Check the central NJ thread to get info about NJN problems. For WNJT from Trenton I have to manually tune 43-3 to get the HD programming. The re-directed channels (52-1,2,5) have a signal but no picture or sound. I sent an e-mail to NJN two weeks ago and from their response they didn't seem to be aware of the problem but they didn't indicate when it might be corrected.

Flattie -

Just to clarify things - at least concerning two stations - 5.1 and 5.2 are not a part of the Combiner project.

WNYW-DT has its own antenna on the ESB. The station continues to work on connecting to a very high power transmitter - they're not finished yet.

Hope this little bit helps.

Gary

Gary,
Thanks for the clarification on WNYW. Still don't understand why I get CBS all the time and NBC and ABC infrequently and never at the same time??

whats the best indoor antenna for UWS manhattan apartment?

Try a Silver Sensor - good idea if you can return it if it doesn't work in your apartment.

Gary

what about the Terk tv5?

tv5 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000069106/qid=1110315828/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1_etk-electronics/103-1930974-0155001?v=glance&s=electronics&n=172282)

Terk=Bad, very, very bad!

Originally posted by dturturro
Terk=Bad, very, very bad!

thats funny. from all amazon reviews:
I tried a few antennas even the silver sensor and that one was the worst I thought even with a amp. hook up to it. with the terk tv5 I get all DT channels in my area. It's easy to move if needed to get better singnal.

Originally posted by luzer
thats funny. from all amazon reviews:
I tried a few antennas even the silver sensor and that one was the worst I thought even with a amp. hook up to it. with the terk tv5 I get all DT channels in my area. It's easy to move if needed to get better singnal.

That's because the amp was probably over driving the STB. Look around this site a little and I'm sure you'll see plenty of proof that SS vs Terk is no contest.

Originally posted by dturturro
That's because the amp was probably over driving the STB. Look around this site a little and I'm sure you'll see plenty of proof that SS vs Terk is no contest.

thanks. will do!

is this the silver sensor ? (http://store.yahoo.com/jlhwholesalers/zenzhdtv1.html)

That's it!

Originally posted by Alexvd
[/B]

The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor. That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.

How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the signal quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.

Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better. Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on the roof but it is still working quite well.

[/B]

It sure sounds like multipath when you say that you are getting signal variations when cars pass. I would try reorienting your antenna toward NYC and set it in the position where WCBS has the most reliable signal. I find that WCBS is the most difficult to to receive at my location without multipath, probably because they are on the highest frequency UHF channel (56) used here for DTV. Try to locate the antenna preamp as close as possible to the antenna to minimize the feedline loss, but I doubt a better preamp would help your problem with multipath.

WNJN is working on their equipment and sometimes transmits on their subchannels with no audio or video. The problem is on their end, not on yours.

Mike

Originally posted by flattie
Some troubleshooting help needed. I'm in Oceanside on the south shore of LI about 25 miles ESE from NYC. I have a roof antenna that came with the house and don't know make/model. The antenna is oriented towards where the WTC was. 2 coax leads come from the antenna. The one I'm using runs to the far side of my house before entering. This coax has 2 inline splitters (using antenna to feed 2 tv's plus fm radio for stereo) plus connections at 2 wall plates (where it enters the house from outside and where it emerges from the wall behind the tv). I understand that all these connections can cause some signal loss that may or may not be recoverable by adding a preamp Since I get 2.1 all the time with no breakups I'm guessing that antenna orientation is not the problem. Does it sound like I need a preamp?? Any advice would be much appreciated.

It would be interesting to find out why there are two coax cables coming from the antenna? Perhaps there are separate feedlines for UHF and VHF?
If you are splitting the signal four ways or more, a preamp located at the antenna would certainly be helpful to compensate for the cable and splitting losses. Try to connect a cable from your receiver directly to each of the coax cables from the roof and see what kind of reception you get. If you get good reception when bypassing all the splitters and extra coax, then an antenna preamp or distribution amp would definitely be worthwhile.

Originally posted by luzer
thanks. will do!

is this the silver sensor ? (http://store.yahoo.com/jlhwholesalers/zenzhdtv1.html)

So, in addition to the antenna is there any additional equipment needed?

I have a hitachi 50v500 w/ no hd tuner and a TWC 8300HD. Do i need a tuner to receive OTA? or can i just plug the antenna into the back of my tv and enjoy?

For 20 bucks this might be the cheapest and easiest peice of HD equipment, of course nothing is w/out it's hitches!

hey BigBlue.

sounds like you'll need to invest in an outboard ATSC tuner--200 to 300 bucks should get you a good one-maybe less.

jim

Originally posted by HDntheCity
hey BigBlue.

sounds like you'll need to invest in an outboard ATSC tuner--200 to 300 bucks should get you a good one-maybe less.

jim

i have the Fusion3 Gold -T card. in order to get the Fusion software working, i need to disable the Media Center Services. (i can just stop them one the pc starts up).

however, i am still not able to get any HD channels. everything i get seems to be analog. i am in NYC(RCN). any suggestions???

WNET 13 is now on the combiner. Hurray!

VHF channel 61. Not a strong signal, but good enough.

Of course, I meant UHF.

Should say I don't know for a fact that they're on the combiner, but I've never been able to receive 13 HD before tonight, so I assume that's the case.

Originally posted by ejjiv
Of course, I meant UHF.

Should say I don't know for a fact that they're on the combiner, but I've never been able to receive 13 HD before tonight, so I assume that's the case.

It's probably just a fluke. Not getting a peep hear on LI.

No signal at all coming from Channel 61 in the East 60s in Manhattan!

Too good to be true!

Gary

I get no audio or video from NJN-5HD on Ch51.
NJN-1 and NJN-4 have video and audio.

Originally posted by icemannyr
I get no audio or video from NJN-5HD on Ch51.
NJN-1 and NJN-4 have video and audio.

can someone PLEASE explain how to recieve these channels on a HDTV PCI tuner card and RCN HDTV cable in the UWS?

TIA!

I get no audio or video from NJN-5HD on Ch51.

iceman, Try posting this in the Central NJ forum...I'm having this problem as well.

Tony

can anyone recommend a cheap hdtv tuner to use w/ an antenna for ota?

Originally posted by George Thompson
Are you using a VSB/QAM combo card? And have you received cable HD channels with this card in the past? Just a thought.
I don't want to sound condesending, but the modulation is different between OTA and cable. 8vsb/QAM......

Also...
"QAM decoding is under development due to the variations in Cable service providers. QAM256 generally has been reported to work, although QAM64 still poses problems with the decoding software. FusionHDTV QAM decoding is limited to only the non-encrypted channels available (generally the OTA local stations). "
I have these problems too when setting up systems for development.

GT

Originally posted by George Thompson
Are you using a VSB/QAM combo card? And have you received cable HD channels with this card in the past? Just a thought.
I don't want to sound condesending, but the modulation is different between OTA and cable. 8vsb/QAM......

Also...
"QAM decoding is under development due to the variations in Cable service providers. QAM256 generally has been reported to work, although QAM64 still poses problems with the decoding software. FusionHDTV QAM decoding is limited to only the non-encrypted channels available (generally the OTA local stations). "

GT

george, thanks for the reply.

i have tried scanning for 8vsb, QAM64, and QAM256 locally.
i am able to pick up all the normal ANALOG stations, but nothing digital seems to work. does anyone have this software and able to get it to work in NYC/RCN?

thanks

Absolutely no O-T-A reception of Channels 50.1 through 50.5 transmitting over RF Channel 51.

Earlier this morning, although no picture or audio, I did receive on each of the Channels a strong signal indication on my meter - the carrier?

Now - nothing!

Gary

Originally posted by BigBlueBong
can anyone recommend a cheap hdtv tuner to use w/ an antenna for ota?

Walmart has a USCable HD Tuner for $199. Dont come any cheaper!

Originally posted by plasmafan
Walmart has a USCable HD Tuner for $199. Dont come any cheaper!

Hmmm, that sounds good, but it looks a little fishy.....it doesn't say anything about resolutions and it also says this in the product description:

"And if you have an HDTV (High Definition) television, you'll get an amazing DVD-quality picture, too. "

DVD-quality?! I don't want DVD quality, i want HD quality!

Anyone own one of these? or know of any other similarly priced/name brand options?

Thanks for the help!

Originally posted by BigBlueBong
can anyone recommend a cheap hdtv tuner to use w/ an antenna for ota?

Samsung SIR-T451. Guy has them on ebay for $179+ shipping

Originally posted by Gary Press
No signal at all coming from Channel 61 in the East 60s in Manhattan!

Too good to be true!

Gary

Still receiving 61 in Clinton Hill, though, like I said, the signal is not strong and my antenna has to be aimed just-so, toward midtown. I had zero signal before this week. A fluke, perhaps, but an ongoing one.

13-1 is HD, while 13-2 ("PBS Kids") and 13-3 ("Thirteen World") are SD. Program info for each.

Originally posted by ejjiv
Still receiving 61 in Clinton Hill, though, like I said, the signal is not strong and my antenna has to be aimed just-so, toward midtown. I had zero signal before this week. A fluke, perhaps, but an ongoing one.

13-1 is HD, while 13-2 ("PBS Kids") and 13-3 ("Thirteen World") are SD. Program info for each.

Since no else has speculated that the WNET-DT is on the Combiner, could it be that somehow you're receiving the station's signal from its low-power antenna on West 33rd street - not all that far from the ESB?

Although its low power is directional toward Newark, with the strange propagation of UHF/DT, I wouldn't at all be surprised if that were the case.

Gary

Originally posted by Gary Press
Since no else has speculated that the WNET-DT is on the Combiner, could it be that somehow you're receiving the station's signal from its low-power antenna on West 33rd street - not all that far from the ESB?

I agree with Gary. You're probably picking up a reflection. I'm about 20 miles north of the ESB and get 0 signal on VHF 61, but over 90 on all the other channels on the combiner. I'm jealous of your luck, because I'm a DirecTV customer and they're not carrying PBS in hi-def yet.

/steve

Have not been able to receive 31.1 now for a couple of days???

Originally posted by flattie
Gary,
Thanks for the clarification on WNYW. Still don't understand why I get CBS all the time and NBC and ABC infrequently and never at the same time?? Same here. CBS and UPN are rock solid. NBC, ABC & WB are like playing the lottery.

Originally posted by HoundBaby
Have not been able to receive 31.1 now for a couple of days???

Same problem here. They seem to be transmitting a signal as I am getting a normal signal strength reading, but no audio or video.

what can i do, if anything, to try to bring in pbs hd in from queens. I m willing to try anything i, i really need kids thirteen. Btw i get 2-11 at full strength, i dont know if that matters?

Originally posted by HoundBaby
Have not been able to receive 31.1 now for a couple of days???

I have not been able to get it for a few days either. I get just a black screen.

Originally posted by George Thompson
Are you using a VSB/QAM combo card? And have you received cable HD channels with this card in the past? Just a thought.
I don't want to sound condesending, but the modulation is different between OTA and cable. 8vsb/QAM......


Yes I am using the Fusion Gold III card and there are seperate settings and two coax in's for for OTA and QAM.

NJN-5HD is working tonight.

Does anyone have a link or list of the NYC HD/Digital channel locations?

Originally posted by icemannyr
Yes I am using the Fusion Gold III card and there are seperate settings and two coax in's for for OTA and QAM.

NJN-5HD is working tonight.

i have the Fusion Gold-T, not the Q.
i only have one COAX in.

Originally posted by icemannyr
Does anyone have a link or list of the NYC HD/Digital channel locations?

You can try titantv.com

I just cruised the FCC web site and caught a glimpse of what the NYC dial will look like when all the analog channels are turned off.

THIS IS NOT HOW IT IS NOW. THIS IS ONLY HOW IT WILL LOOK AFTER THE ANALOG STATIONS GET TURNED OFF (SOMETIME AFTER 2006.)

WABC -- 7
WCBS -- No Decision (waiting for next ballot.)
WNBC -- 28
WNYW -- 44
WNET -- 13
WLIW -- 21
WNJB -- 8
WNJN -- 51
WWOR -- 9
WPIX -- 11
WNYE -- 24
WXTV -- 40 (Maybe)
WNJU -- 36 (Maybe)

So far it looks like no one will be on the low V's (2-6.) Guess we'll still be needing those U/V combo antennas for a long time...

Originally posted by dturturro
You can try titantv.com

Thanks I found them there :)

Originally posted by hphase
I just cruised the FCC web site and caught a glimpse of what the NYC dial will look like when all the analog channels are turned off.

THIS IS NOT HOW IT IS NOW. THIS IS ONLY HOW IT WILL LOOK AFTER THE ANALOG STATIONS GET TURNED OFF (SOMETIME AFTER 2006.)

WABC -- 7
WCBS -- No Decision (waiting for next ballot.)
WNBC -- 28
WNYW -- 44
WNET -- 13
WLIW -- 21
WNJB -- 8
WNJN -- 51
WWOR -- 9
WPIX -- 11
WNYE -- 24
WXTV -- 40 (Maybe)
WNJU -- 36 (Maybe)

So far it looks like no one will be on the low V's (2-6.) Guess we'll still be needing those U/V combo antennas for a long time...

Does VHF in the 7-13 range with a typical outdoor combo antenna travel farther or less far than UHF?

Originally posted by sluciani
I agree with Gary. You're probably picking up a reflection. I'm about 20 miles north of the ESB and get 0 signal on VHF 61, but over 90 on all the other channels on the combiner. I'm jealous of your luck, because I'm a DirecTV customer and they're not carrying PBS in hi-def yet.

/steve

I'm in Jersey City, a mere 4 miles away from ESB (according to 2150 and antennaweb), and do not get even a whiff of channel 13. All other locals come in rock solid at about 70 degrees. I can rotate my CM4228 almost 10 degrees in either direction and still get them. Channel 13 is supposed to be at 64 degrees for me and I've rotated the antenna, in 1 degree increments, from 50-80 and get nothing.

Can we get a definitve answer to if/when WNET channel 13 will be on the combiner?

Originally posted by tincan
Does VHF in the 7-13 range with a typical outdoor combo antenna travel farther or less far than UHF?

i'm not sure what the answer is but the power levels aren't a set thing either. A station picking one over the other would adjust their power level accordingly. So i dont know that range is as important as to how interference effects one or the other. (I believe that's why everyone is bailing on 2-6 as there is too much interference there)

Originally posted by tincan
Does VHF in the 7-13 range with a typical outdoor combo antenna travel farther or less far than UHF?
VHF travels farther than UHF at the same power. Even though 2-6 travels even farther, it is considered less desirable for TV then the upper VHF channels due to interference from power line arcing and other mostly man-made interference. This is because analog TV uses AM modulation for the picture, and interference shows up as short horizontal streaks in the picture. The digital TV system was designed to be not as susceptible to this interference, but the larger antennas (receive and transmit) are still a pain. 7-13 are considered better than 2-6, and even UHF. It has the long range of VHF and the physically more manageable antenna size of UHF.