New York, NY - OTA [Text View] - Page 29

mokomok

07-10-08, 12:20 AM

So I got my HDTV and the Silver Sensor. It took some insane amount of placement trial and error, but at my best here's what I get on digital reception: Ch 56 (2.1 - WCBS), Ch 28 (4.1, 4.2, 4.4 - WNBC), Ch 44 (5.1 - WNYW, 5.2 - WOR), Ch 45 (7.1, 7.2, 7.3 - WABC), Ch 24 (25.1, 25.2 - WNYE), Ch 30 (31.1, 31.2, 31.3, 31.4 - WPXN). That's not bad, I think, but I can't explain why I don't see anything at all from Ch 38 (9.1, 9.2 - WOR-DT), Ch 33 (11.1, 11.2 - WPIX), or Ch 61 (13.1, 13.2, 13.3 - WNET). It's like from where I am, they aren't even broadcasting, as any direction I point that thing gets absolute 0% on each one of those. The other channels I do get (as mentioned above) drop out maybe a half second every two minutes - kinda annoying as well. At this point, I'm not super concerned since I can get most of those channels in HD over QAM from the trickle out the cable wire. However, I can't help thinking this antenna might not be the best for my situation. Details: I live in an apartment building (brownstone) that is five stories tall. Most of the buildings on my block are about the same height. I live on the first floor, and have a window looking out onto the street. Outdoor antenna is not possible, since I have no outside area that is exclusive to my use. The silver sensor (PHDTV1) is hooked up with a nice RG-6 cable and situated about 10 feet above the floor, near the window. Funny that the best signal strength I've been able to get (read: most consistent on each of those channels) is with the SS fitted vertically in the base and pointed 180˚ away from the direction of the main towers (according to tvfool). Any ideas as to what I should try next? I assume that there is a huge amount of interference with all the buildings around. I also assume that dropouts might be happening due to ghost reflections? It's not bad, I just think it could be way better and am still baffled as to how I can't see a drop from those channels that appear to be broadcasting from the same location and similar power as the ones I get. Attached here is my tvfool spec. I think I gave up after Ch 34...
http://media.share.ovi.com/m1/original/0283/7c0f59e18afa439b9f7622cf3837bc77.png

atlanticview

07-13-08, 02:55 PM

O2C

07-13-08, 05:45 PM

The way things are in the city, without clear line-of-sight, there's no real way of telling what signals you might or might not receive short of trying things out. It's very possible that you may be able to get a decent signal in another direction, bounced off some other building. Also, post Feb '09 stations may boost their signal strength significantly or change frequencies all together.

Your answer is pretty much the same as everyone elses' -- for now, try a silver sensor in different locations throughout your apartment, pointing in different directions.

SnellKrell

07-13-08, 06:23 PM

I've just moved here and have an apartment down in the west village. I'm on the 4th floor, but my window faces northwest. I went to tvfool.com and looked at the information for it, and saw that the antennas are located at 50 degrees or so (Empire State Building) and after Feb 2009, some will move to 250 degrees.

This basically means any indoor antenna I have will go through a brick wall (or two or three). Anyone out there in the village who has any experience with this? Just trying to figure out if I need cable service or not with my internet.

Thanks!

As others have said, you never know what you can receive or not - it's experimenting with each and every channel that's of interest to you.

I agree about the Silver Sensor - try it - if you can, buy it where you can return it if just doesn't do the job for you.

Concerning stations moving from the Empire State Building to 250 degrees - not sure what that's all about. It might be in anticipation of stations moving from the Empire State to the Freedom Tower.

If the Freedom Tower move does take place - it probably won't be until 2012 at the earliest. So you have plenty of viewing to be done from the Empire State location.

Hope this has helped.

atlanticview

07-13-08, 06:43 PM

Thanks... I figured there's no way but just to try it. Guess I'll have to get a TV and an antenna at the same time. How are the policies of Circuit City or Best Buy? Is there a better choice out here?

SnellKrell

07-13-08, 06:56 PM

Last I looked, Circuit City had stopped carrying it - only had amplified version - which you really don't need.

Home Depot is now carrying the Philips version of the Silver Sensor - Model PH-DTV1.

Great return policy at Home Depot.

Try it!

O2C

07-14-08, 11:21 PM

I didn't have any issues returning an antenna I tried out from the SoHo Best Buy recently. No hassle, no restock fee. Ask first and double check the posted return policy or the one on the receipt.

Did you see the silver sensor in a NYC Home Depot? It's labeled as online only on the website, but the Manhattan store carries a weird selection. . .

SnellKrell

07-15-08, 06:32 AM

No, I saw the Silver Sensor listed on the Home Depot Web site.

POWERFUL

07-15-08, 11:32 AM

Can you return it to a store if you buy it online?

Roger Lococco

07-16-08, 10:41 AM

sys_epoll

07-16-08, 01:46 PM

has anyone else been receiving odd ota reception these last few days, WABC seems messed up and unreceivable, and over the weekend I was receiving all sorts of distant stations on my dtt901 (probably because of the weather).

Roger,

Here in central NJ, we have lost all DT, with the exception of a very spotty WABC-DT. Even WCBS-DT (the strongest here) is gone. Disappointing considering Feb 2009 is coming fast, and it will be several years before antennas will be relocated from the ESB.

Tom

mokomok

07-16-08, 01:51 PM

As of now, I've kind of given up on consistency from OTA where I live. I'm getting great clear QAM HD for all my locals through the leftover pipe from TWC - I hope that don't go away any time soon! Still paying for cable internet, so maybe that signal will keep truckin' down the line to my house...

Roger Lococco

07-16-08, 05:11 PM

thanks Tom, I was starting to wonder if there was something wrong with my antenna or 901.

pug_ster

07-16-08, 10:02 PM

Yesterday, I remember that I was able to get WABC, WNBC, WCBS, WB11, WNYW, and WWOR. Today I was only able to get 5-1 and 5-2 (WNYW and WWOR) I wonder why this is happening...?

jaypb

07-17-08, 07:26 AM

My only chime in is to see if anyone who either watches Conan live at 12:37 am or DVR's it at that time OTA has noticed that at 1 am (usually sharp) their recording "stops". But yet the 3 am airing of Conan comes through fine. Are they testing from 1 am to pre-3am ?!?! In the "old days" if the signal went down at 1am it seemed to stay down past 3 am.

Annoying to say the least! If you're going to do some testing/repairs, why not do it AFTER your first run nightime talk show ends!!! :mad:

BCCISProf

07-17-08, 08:15 AM

The title says it all.... anyone have any idea what is happening?

Up until last night I was able to receive all the above. Now they are gone.:mad:

O2C

07-17-08, 12:23 PM

I'm experiencing issues on those stations too. Very large drop in signal strength from most, to point of problems where there weren't any before. WPIX / 11 which was iffy at times, is down to zero.

I'd guess heat issues caused them to drop output power, but that's a WAG.

the-sloth

07-17-08, 12:31 PM

The title says it all.... anyone have any idea what is happening?

Up until last night I was able to receive all the above. Now they are gone.:mad:

WABC is spotty and i'm in midtown with a rooftop antenna and direct line of sight to the north (i'm in the west twenties). all the other networks are locked in at 90+. typically WABC is 95+ for me.

is WABC transmitting from ESB or Conde Nast now?

BCCISProf

07-17-08, 08:12 PM

The title says it all.... anyone have any idea what is happening?

Up until last night I was able to receive all the above. Now they are gone.:mad:

I have been in contact with an engineer from WCBS NY. All of these channels have switched over to a backup antenna while work is being done on their main antenna. However, apparently Brooklyn needs a "fill" antenna since it is not covered by their 'backup" antenna. I am told that this "fill" antenna will be turned on sometimes tonight.

I will be in touch with them as the matter progresses.

I must complement the engineers at WCBS. They replied to my email within minutes, and got back to me later in the afternoon with additional information.

SnellKrell

07-17-08, 08:48 PM

I have been in contact with an engineer from WCBS NY. All of these channels have switched over to a backup antenna while work is being done on their main antenna. However, apparently Brooklyn needs a "fill" antenna since it is not covered by their 'backup" antenna. I am told that this "fill" antenna will be turned on sometimes tonight.

I will be in touch with them as the matter progresses.

I must complement the engineers at WCBS. They replied to my email within minutes, and got back to me later in the afternoon with additional information.

Thanks so much for the information.

Earlier this evening I was installing my new DirecTV over-the-air tuner and was so very disappointed in its sensitivity.

Fortunately, it's not the fault of the new tuner.

Again, many thanks to you and the WCBS engineer.

pug_ster

07-18-08, 11:08 AM

I forgot to mention I live in Brooklyn. Thanks for the information. Hopefully they would get it fixed by next week:p

BCCISProf

07-18-08, 12:36 PM

...apparently Brooklyn needs a "fill" antenna since it is not covered by their 'backup" antenna. I am told that this "fill" antenna will be turned on sometimes tonight.

I have been informed that there was trouble with the Brooklyn "fill "antenna that will require additional testing. Currently it is scheduled to go online either Monday or Tuesday morning.

dan57

07-18-08, 01:32 PM

For what it's worth, I have observed no issues the last few days with OTA broadcasting of NY stations here in Central Jersey.

sys_epoll

07-18-08, 07:12 PM

For what it's worth, I have observed no issues the last few days with OTA broadcasting of NY stations here in Central Jersey.

I guess I'm getting nailed by the 2-edge diffraction loss, as for the past week, digital reception has been so poor as to be unwatchable. Right now I'm getting no digital channels at all. My location must be extremely sensitive to TX antenna vertical height. Sheesh.
Location: Monmouth County, NJ
BTW: Analog is coming in fine.

David-the-dtv-ma

07-18-08, 10:31 PM

They may be putting up a broad band UHF antenna on the very tiptop. They may have to take some [NTSC] antennas down so that the permanent antenna will be on the very tiptop. They may have the DTV antennas on a temp antenna lower down while the permanent one goes on the top. Thus temporarily the DTV signal may be weak. When you e-mail WCBS engineer ask him if this is what they are doing. Also One thing I have taken note of: When I have lost some of my DTV stations & moved my antenna to the analog tuner. I then found out why DTV was out, some distant NTSC station was coming in over ridding the local DTV signal. I saw some NTSC stations coming in. That will really clear up after 2-19-09. Right now the FCC has the DTV stations with only 20 percent of the max of the NTSC stations. Also since the stations are using 2 channels they are using channels closer to each other than the FCC normally allows. On the same channel used, the stations were about 200 miles apart. But since they are running close on channels available to be used they are running them too close. That will also clear up after 2-19-09.

Straphanger

07-19-08, 08:59 AM

I have been noticing some problems with my signal recently. I'm about 5 miles away from the ESB in Queens and ABC (usually one of the strongest) occasionally has stuttering and picture breakup. There have also been some periods of no signal recently as well. Hopefully things will be ironed out soon.

SnellKrell

07-19-08, 09:17 AM

hoxbox

07-19-08, 04:13 PM

I have been informed that there was trouble with the Brooklyn "fill "antenna that will require additional testing. Currently it is scheduled to go online either Monday or Tuesday morning.

Thanks for the info! I just moved into 14 story building in Brooklyn with clear line of sight of midtown and I was scratching my head why I get 5.1 and 7.1 no problem (if I turn on signal booster on my Philips antenna the signal actually drops!) but miss the other networks. Hopefully this will be resolved next week.

SnellKrell

07-19-08, 04:28 PM

hoxbox -

Your signal booster (amplifier) is not only not needed when you're so close to the
Empire State Building, but the reason your signal drops when using it, is that you're probably overloading your receiver's tuner.

I would never amplify the signal being located where you are!

the-sloth

07-20-08, 10:42 AM

anyone know what's going on with WABC's transmitter on ESB (or conde nast, i can't recall if they moved or not.) i'm less than 20 blocks from ESB with a rooftop antenna and I used to have WABC pegged near 100% signal strength.... the past week it has taken a nosedive and now i can't even get a picture.

SnellKrell

07-20-08, 10:57 AM

What I think is causing your problem, per the information here, is that work is being done on the Combiner antenna atop ESB, and WABC-DT is a part of this.

Stations are now using backup equipment - concerning WABC-DT, this could very well mean that this station is using its alternate at 4 Times Square (Conde Nast Building).

the-sloth

07-20-08, 11:05 AM

David-the-dtv-ma

07-20-08, 07:41 PM

even still.... i'm in the west 20s, so conde nast isn't far either.... if i swing my DB2 south and point it towards brooklyn i can get a signal, but then all the other channels take a big hit.

has anyone gotten an ETA on the amount of time the combiner is going to be down?

It will be great when the finish. Then all the UHF sations will share the top mount & all the stations will wamp out the power. I wish the engineers would kindly up date us on the status so we do not think that some thing is wrong with our dtv tuners & antennas It causes a lot of not needed stress when they know that their signal is going to be weak while the are moving the analog antennas & the temp antennas out the way to mount the perment antennas. We do not have the money in our budget to pay for the OTA signals. It is spent on gas. So we llve with what we can get free on the antenna.

SnellKrell

07-20-08, 08:08 PM

It will be great when the finish. Then all the UHF sations will share the top mount & all the stations will wamp out the power. I wish the engineers would kindly up date us on the status so we do not think that some thing is wrong with our dtv tuners & antennas It causes a lot of not needed stress when they know that their signal is going to be weak while the are moving the analog antennas & the temp antennas out the way to mount the perment antennas. We do not have the money in our budget to pay for the OTA signals. It is spent on gas. So we llve with what we can get free on the antenna.

I would be interested to find out why people are saying that "all the UHF stations will share the top mount."

As of 2/17/09, the the three New York High-VHF stations, WABC-DT (7),
WPIX-DT (11) and WNET-DT-13, will be sharing the higher portion of the
ESB mast at 405 meters (HATT) vs. the UHF stations, WNYW-DT (45)
at 367 meters and a combiner for WNBC-DT (28), WCBS-DT (33) and
WWOR-TV (38) sharing an antenna at 397 meters.

VHF stations will be at a higher position than the UHFs!

I cannot logically see stations expending tight budgets to change positions
now that will then have to be changed for the February magic date.

It would make absolutely no sense.

I would think whatever is being done now is in anticipation for 2/09.

David-the-dtv-ma

07-20-08, 10:25 PM

I would be interested to find out why people are saying that "all the UHF stations will share the top mount."

As of 2/17/09, the the three New York High-VHF stations, WABC-DT (7),
WPIX-DT (11) and WNET-DT-13, will be sharing the higher portion of the
ESB mast at 405 meters (HATT) vs. the UHF stations, WNYW-DT (45)
at 367 meters and a combiner for WNBC-DT (28), WCBS-DT (33) and
WWOR-TV (38) sharing an antenna at 397 meters.

VHF stations will be at a higher position than the UHFs!

I cannot logically see stations expending tight budgets to change positions
now that will then have to be changed for the February magic date.

It would make absolutely no sense.

I would think whatever is being done now is in anticipation for 2/09.

The analog low band vhf antennas will not be needed after sign off on 02-17-09. They want the DTV antennas that will stay after 2-17-09 to be on the top, one under the other. But the low band analog antennas are still being used until then. Therefore it does make sense them to be moved from the best location to a temp location to make way for the perment to have the best location

Digiti

07-21-08, 09:01 AM

SnellKrell

07-21-08, 09:10 AM

Can anyone explain to me why I lost the channel 4 NBC HD Feed as well as the CBS Channel 2 HD feed OTA in the last few days in Kew Gardens, N.Y.? I checked the rooftop antenna and everything seems to be OK. Thanks.

Just look above - work is being done on the Empire State Building's mast.

Power way down on those stations using the Combiner.

Digiti

07-21-08, 12:16 PM

Just look above - work is being done on the Empire State Building's mast.

Power way down on those stations using the Combiner.

Thanks for the info and reply. I just needed reassurance that the problem was not on my end.

rothe

07-21-08, 01:50 PM

I was trying to find ANYTHING on the web about who does the maintenance on the Empire State Building antennas, and when/why/etc, but came up with nothing. But I did find a few interesting links.

Check this one out for an idea of just how many stations are broadcasting from that site:

http://www.lnl.com/esbantennas.htm

And check this one out for an idea of what it's like to actually be up there, working on those antennas:

http://www.laforetvisuals.com/main.php

(choose index / perspectives/ new york moments, then scroll forward to image 6 of 9)

Skyeclad

07-21-08, 07:49 PM

And check this one out for an idea of what it's like to actually be up there, working on those antennas:

http://www.laforetvisuals.com/main.php

(choose index / perspectives/ new york moments, then scroll forward to image 6 of 9)

How do they do it?

clio22

07-21-08, 11:44 PM

FWIW, I emailed CBS, NBC, WPIX, WNET and the ESB Sunday night asking about this problem. So far (Mon 11 PM) I've received no reply other than a canned email receipt confirmation from ESB.

If the ESB antenna work is true, I don't understand why the networks wouldn't have broadcast some notice. It's grossly irresponsible of them to leave thousands of viewers in the dark.

Naturally, I'll post if and when I hear something back.

Bonnie

SnellKrell

07-22-08, 06:26 AM

The work is "true."

I've checked the FCC filings of each member station of the Combiner project.

In many ways, WWOR's paper work tells the most.

The current work is scheduled to be completed by August 4th - the replacing of the currently shared DTV system on the ESB. Once completed, the new system will improve the abilities of the member stations (2, 4, 7, 9, 11 and 13) in providing better over-the-air signals to viewers in Brooklyn and Queens. This system will become the post-transitional system.

The filing also mentions to the Commission that working on the ESB has special problems.

The observation deck, which is located directly below the broadcast antenna systems, operates into the early hours morning hours.

The nightly work starts as early as 12 midnight. This allows 4-5 work hours per night , yielding 3-4 hours of actual on-tower work time.

Stations anticipate that after this phase is finished and the new Combiner is operational, additional work will continue not just until the magic 2/17/09 date, but until the fall of 2010.

All of the above and more is available from the FCC data bank - station's Form 387.

dturturro

07-22-08, 06:30 AM

After cable, satellite and fiber how many OTA enthusiasts do the broadcasters really care about? It's all about numbers.

BCCISProf

07-22-08, 08:00 AM

ghostie

07-22-08, 07:00 PM

As of Tuesday morning, (here in Southern Brooklyn) I again am able to receive DTV OTA Channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 11 without any problems.

Channel 13 still does not come in. Hopefully that too will be fixed in the near future.

Is it truly back? I'm in Brooklyn (Sunset Park) and as of 7pm today, I still only get one bar for channel 4. It used to be my strongest channel with 8+ bars. I get channel 5 and 7 quite strong though. Those channels never lost strength for me in the last few days. Meanwhile, I don't get channel 2, 9, 11 or 13 anymore.

dagger666

07-22-08, 09:48 PM

I'm using very old RCA rabbit ears and have been having trouble with channel 9,11,2 past few weeks. Today i hooked a 2 foot long piece of tin foil to the UHF ring and got all my stations back. What i find strange is that I'm on the queens/Nassau border about 13 miles from the city and can't get digital 13. I know they broadcast on UHF 61 but can't pick up a single. i do get 25, 21(UHF 22),41, and of course 2 - 11 but not 8 or 10. channel 31 which is on UHF 30 also escapes me.

jpg7

07-22-08, 10:00 PM

SnellKrell

07-22-08, 10:00 PM

It really isn't surprising that digital 13 can't be received.
Beside its current allocation on channel 61, it is also has the weakest signal
from ESB.

Put the two together - highest channel frequency and lowest power -
disasterous reception!

SnellKrell

07-22-08, 10:17 PM

I am in the general Cobble Hill area experiencing the same thing on 2, 4, 9, 11, and 13. This morning I got some improvement but it's much weaker than it was before. I followed a previous poster and e-mailed the WCBS engineer who has been very good about getting back with me.

Monday night/Tuesday morning they went to full power on the new antenna. I had to reply to him to let him know the impact to my reception. Here's what I am seeing:

Station, meter range before, meter range after
WCBS, 55 - 75, 10 - 35
WNBC, 80 - 95, 30 - 50
WWOR, 65 - 95, 25 - 45
WPIX, 80 - 95, 20 - 40
WNET, 30 - 55, 0 - 5

I am in a top floor apartment and using rabbit ears (note that these significantly outperform the silver sensor for me). Anything over 35 on the meter gets me a solid picture, so I am in dropout land. Also every station needs a different antenna orientation now. It's as if the new antenna is at much weaker power or is highly directional away from Brooklyn.

Things are getting very, very confusing!

It is my understanding that the original Combiner is currently being replaced by two new ones. This has nothing to do with 7,11 and 13 eventually going high-VHF.

The main new Combiner will be on the ESB mast serving 2, 4, 7, 9, 11 and 13as had been the original Combiner (WCBS-DT's omni-directional antenna).

The second new one is located below the mast and mounted on the Northwest and Southeast sides of the building. This is a backup facility.

I have a feeling that what you were told that the new antenna went full power Monday night/Tuesday morning that statement had to do with the backup antennas mounted below the mast, not the higher, new main antenna.

At least let's all hope so. Because if this is full power that we're getting from the mast, a lot of us are in deep, deep trouble.

Also remember, as I've previously posted, according to Channel 9's filing with the FCC, the completion date is scheduled to be August 4th. Maybe they over estimated and gave themselves some wiggle room, or what I hope is the case that they are continuing to work and we're not experiencing the full power from the main Combiner.

Keep your fingers crossed!

BCCISProf

07-22-08, 10:48 PM

It is my understanding that they are currently not broadcasting from the ESB, but are instead are using a backup antenna plus a special antenna to cover Brooklyn (which apparently is in the "shadow" area of the backup antenna.) If this is true, then things are not quite back to where they used to be. Depending where you are in Brooklyn, you might be catching the tail-end of the Brooklyn "shadow" antenna.

However, the point is that they are doing major work on the ESB which may take sometime to complete.

At this time (in the Marine Park area of Brooklyn) I am getting 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 without any problem using a rooftop (2 floors) antenna. No 13, but I never received that.

tamahome02000

07-22-08, 11:21 PM

I'm in central nj. Can get everything but cbs.

clio22

07-23-08, 06:16 AM

Well, since you've read through the FCC filings, Snell, my emails to network stations are mooted out. I haven't heard back, anyway, except for the ESB who sent me the email address of, I assume, one of the engineers at the ESB. Sent one off to him/her before I read the good (?) news in the thread today.

I'm in like Flint. Here in Long Beach (LI) I've got:

2 - 81%
4 - 66
7 - 92
9 - 70 (I prefer the 9 series to the 5)
11- 61
13- 50 !! (a minor miracle)
21- 61

clio22

07-23-08, 07:31 AM

p.s. - forgot to mention that I'm using a Phillips amplified Mant510 with DigStream in the bedroom and a RatShack amplified with RCA800B in the living room. Reception on both is perfect.

craig372

07-23-08, 12:32 PM

Around noon today I get the following signal strength readings:

2.x 41
4.x 73
5.x 76
7.x 41
9.x 41
11.x 70
13.x 25
25.x 78

(can't lock signals below around 45, so I am only getting 4,5,11, and 25 now)

I am in Boerum Hill, near downtown Brooklyn, and have a rooftop antenna (about 50 ft above ground) with a winegard hdp 269 preamp (to compensate for long cable runs). Just about two weeks ago I replaced my old rg59 cables with RG6 to give the high freq UHF a chance of making it to the TV. For a few days, I was getting everything (including 13!) with excellent signal strengths. I was trying to tweak things to get more reliable signals on 7 and 9 but then lost everything except 5 (and maybe 25) - apparently because they started working on the transmitting antennas. Now, a week later, at least I get something, but I sure hope they are still working on it.

Falcon_77

07-23-08, 03:58 PM

Check this one out for an idea of just how many stations are broadcasting from that site:

http://www.lnl.com/esbantennas.htm

Quite impressive and that was in 1967! It would be nice to see what it's like now with all the DTV antennas. It has to be awfully crowded these days.

I'm assuming WNBC/4 is still at the top as their HAAT is listed at 439m. Will anything be that high after the transition? The highest from the Post Transition CP's appears to be WFUT at 429m, followed by WNYW at 424m.

Are there any radio stations on the WNBC/4 antenna now? I see WNBC-FM on the link, but that is no longer there, right?

SnellKrell

07-23-08, 05:14 PM

WNBC analogue should not be confused with WNBC-DT.

The digital station currently shares a Combiner with WCBS-DT, WABC-DT, WWOR-DT,
WPIX-DT and WNET-DT.

After the transition, it will share a Combiner with the following UHF stations,
WCBS-DT and WWOR-DT. WABC-DT, WPIX-DT and WNET-DT will share their own separate High-VHF Combiner.

There is no longer a WNBC-FM. G.E. after it took over RCA got out of the radio business
and sold off all the radio holdings.

Falcon_77

07-23-08, 08:50 PM

WNBC analogue should not be confused with WNBC-DT.

Once analog 4 is turned off, are they just going to remove the antenna? I don't see anything else moving up that high. In other words, will the ESB retain its existing height?

SnellKrell

07-23-08, 09:38 PM

Once analog 4 is turned off, are they just going to remove the antenna? I don't see anything else moving up that high. In other words, will the ESB retain its existing height?

Falcon -

You bring up an interesting point.

WNBC (4) analogue appears to located at 515m HAAT on the ESB mast,
while the new High-VHF Combiner antenna is scheduled to be at 405m, and the new UHF Combiner antenna will be at 397m.

There will be no use for 4's Low-VHF antenna, but that real estate at 515m is so very valuable.

Will the ESB shrink? It has in the past when most stations went to the World Trade Center and a lot of hardware was removed.

As I said, interesting point!!!!

Falcon_77

07-24-08, 10:49 AM

WNBC (4) analogue appears to located at 515m HAAT on the ESB mast,
while the new High-VHF Combiner antenna is scheduled to be at 405m, and the new UHF Combiner antenna will be at 397m.

Looking at the coords, the 515m HAAT License still appears to be for the WTC facility. I'm assuming that the WNBC analog 4 application record for 439m is for the ESB, but regardless, I don't see anything taking the place of analog 4's antenna right now.

SnellKrell

07-24-08, 11:10 AM

Falcon -

You're right, sorry, I mixed up the coordinates for the WTC location for those of the ESB.

Things are bit confusing here in the NY DMA!

With the work that's now being done on ESB - I no longer get WCBS-DT and WNBC-DT
(4.1 - which had been my strongest and most reliable signal) but, now for the first time am getting, although intermittently, WNET-DT!

Hoping that things will straighten out when they finally finish the work!

SnellKrell

David-the-dtv-ma

07-24-08, 02:12 PM

Falcon -

You're right, sorry, I meixed up the coordinates for the WTC location for those of the ESB.

Things are bit confusing here in the NY DMA!

With the work that's now being done on ESB - I no longer get WCBS-DT and WNBC-DT
(4.1 - which had been my strongest and most reliable signal) but, now for the first time am getting, although intermittently, WNET-DT!

Hoping that things will straighten out when they finally finish the work!

SnellKrell

They are most likely waiting untill 2-19-09 since they are still running 4 analog. Then it would make sence to the take down the 4 analog antenna & put the one of the shared antennas [maybe the UHF] in place of the the old 4. I am sure they did not plan it this ways thou. It was most likely because of the 9-11-01 WTC & they did not even think they would be using ESB & this was a on the spot change. While most other cities' stations [if they were VHF low band] first put up a temp analog on the side. then dissconnected the perm from the transmitter & connect it to the temp. Then took down the perm analog off the top. Then put up a perm digital on the top. But since the ESB antennas was by the 1960s tech standards of that day & did not have shared antennas very much. Therefore the had so many antennas up there, with most having their own antenna. I can understand they have very little room up there. I am sure when they went to the WTC most of those antennas were just left up there leaving them very little room for new temp antennas or new perm antennas. Butr I am sure before 9-11-01 they did not think thkey would be trying to use that site as now. I am sure they would like to take it all down & put it all back up as perm shared digital antennas. But they need to keep 2 system on unitll 2-19-09 & as well keep the digital on ther air while they are doing all this

clio22

07-25-08, 12:06 PM

FYI, some excerpts from replies I received to my emails:

ESB Broadcast Mgr:

"To improve digital TV coverage, the broadcasters are installing a new antenna at the Empire State Building. Around July 15, a temporary DTV antenna was installed on the north side of the building and the existing antenna was turned off so it could be removed. A second DTV antenna to serve viewers to the south and east was also installed and placed in service this week. Installation of the new DTV antenna is expected to be completed during the first week of August, but you should be ok at this time."

13/WNET:

"We will not be broadcasting our digital signal on full strength until the federally mandated transition date of February 1, 2009."

SnellKrell

07-25-08, 12:10 PM

dagger666

07-25-08, 12:50 PM

i was thinking of changing my indoor antenna from the old RCA rabbit ears to something more modern. really not sure if I'll change the rooftop antenna anymore just disconnected it. what do you think of these

HDTV Indoor / Outdoor Antenna Product ID 4730
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2

CM-4040
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/antennas_indoor.html

dagger666

07-25-08, 04:50 PM

seams like fox is the strongest while channel 2 and 9 are the weakest. can someone tell who ever does the traffic cam for 25-2 to do something about the noise, it drives me nuts. on another note the DTVPAL is working great now that i hooked it to an old RCA rabbit ears and placed them on top of a cabinet in the upstairs office. i get a whole bunch more channels including 31.1-5, 25.1-2, 21.1-4 but still no PBS channel 13.

Falcon_77

07-25-08, 09:57 PM

I really hope that "February 1,2009" is your typo and not 13's.
If it's theirs, we're all in a lot of trouble!

Well, it's probably better to make a mistake and transition on 2/1/09 than 2/1/10. :D

Is any of the work visible from the streets or other buildings? Hopefully, normal coverage will be restored soon.

I wonder how this will affect my reception when I'm in CT. WNYW was coming in great a couple weeks ago, but WCBS, & WWOR also made appearances. The difference between WCBS's HD news and WNYW's SD news was quite stark, however. Does WNYW have any near-term plans to upgrade?

ja2bk

07-26-08, 01:10 PM

can someone tell who ever does the traffic cam for 25-2 to do something about the noise, it drives me nuts.

Its called too high video levels. It becomes audible and thats what you are hearing. The cameras are black and white. Notice it will be when bright white text or areas of the picture are present. I doubt they do any adjustments to the feeds from the DOT cameras.

johnosolis

07-26-08, 01:55 PM

Its called too high video levels. It becomes audible and thats what you are hearing. The cameras are black and white. Notice it will be when bright white text or areas of the picture are present. I doubt they do any adjustments to the feeds from the DOT cameras.

Zackly. My understanding is that if you're going to add text titles to a video image, you have to attenuate the video feed first so the video feed plus the titles don't create an excessive level that spills out onto the audio.

I'm just a layman and I'm vaguely aware of that. How come the technicians at Channel 25 are so clueless, if they're supposed to be professionals?

(BTW, their facilities are located in a part of Brooklyn where it's too scary for me to get out of my car even during the day.) UHF 25 was an experiment conducted by the FCC, testing the viability of the first urban UHF station. When they were finished experimenting, they donated it to the City of New York which experiments with what a complete waste of time they can make out of millions of dollars.

In the age of high permeation of cable services and must-carry regulations, it now being irrelevant whether a channel is VHF or UHF, a decent commercial enterprise should be able to turn a pretty penny with channel 25, although you'd never know it by flipping to channel 31 which shows "Mama's Family" during prime time.

:(

dagger666

07-26-08, 01:55 PM

ja2bk

07-27-08, 10:35 AM

Zackly. My understanding is that if you're going to add text titles to a video image, you have to attenuate the video feed first so the video feed plus the titles don't create an excessive level that spills out onto the audio.

I'm just a layman and I'm vaguely aware of that. How come the technicians at Channel 25 are so clueless, if they're supposed to be professionals?

(BTW, their facilities are located in a part of Brooklyn where it's too scary for me to get out of my car even during the day.) UHF 25 was an experiment conducted by the FCC, testing the viability of the first urban UHF station. When they were finished experimenting, they donated it to the City of New York which experiments with what a complete waste of time they can make out of millions of dollars.

In the age of high permeation of cable services and must-carry regulations, it now being irrelevant whether a channel is VHF or UHF, a decent commercial enterprise should be able to turn a pretty penny with channel 25, although you'd never know it by flipping to channel 31 which shows "Mama's Family" during prime time.

:(

I think you misunderstand. I think they only take the DOT feeds and cycle through them. I'm sure its no easy task to get it right for every camera. Some look better than others.

I will say I have been there before and it was a very small budget operation. Somehow I was under the impression 25 was folded in with the NYC TV cable networks though. I figured they were no longer originating from that building in Brooklyn. Perhaps its only under the NYC TV banner, but not run out of the same location as the cable nets.

you haven't watched lately, some are now color at lest one is.

Correct you are. Haven't watched in some time. Is it still strectch on the OTA?

This audible phenomenon can happen in color video as well.

George Molnar

07-27-08, 10:55 AM

Zackly. My understanding is that if you're going to add text titles to a video image, you have to attenuate the video feed first so the video feed plus the titles don't create an excessive level that spills out onto the audio.:(

NTSC system has video inverted so that darkest picture sets maximum power and brightest video has the potential to pinch off visual carrier and thus must be clipped at a certain maximum level. This was chosen early on so that "snow" in pictures would appear as white speckles instead of black speckles, the preference of most observers. Intercarrier TV sets need the visual carrier to demodulate the audio from the aural carrier and when it gets 'pinched off' by excessive whites, you get buzz in the audio. This problem is eliminated in NTSC sets that demodulate aural carrier directly, and digital ATSC transmissions are immune due to using MPEG.

I'm just a layman and I'm vaguely aware of that. How come the technicians at Channel 25 are so clueless, if they're supposed to be professionals?

(BTW, their facilities are located in a part of Brooklyn where it's too scary for me to get out of my car even during the day.) UHF 25 was an experiment conducted by the FCC, testing the viability of the first urban UHF station. When they were finished experimenting, they donated it to the City of New York which experiments with what a complete waste of time they can make out of millions of dollars. :(

I thought that Ch. 31 was the FCC's test station in NYC and the City got posession following the tests and eventually sold it for the $.:([/QUOTE]

In the age of high permeation of cable services and must-carry regulations, it now being irrelevant whether a channel is VHF or UHF, a decent commercial enterprise should be able to turn a pretty penny with channel 25, although you'd never know it by flipping to channel 31 which shows "Mama's Family" during prime time.

:(

the-sloth

07-27-08, 02:15 PM

WPIX-DT just went out for me OTA & D* HD LIL. guessing it's the same for everyone else too?

EDIT (14:20): Back up and running. Maybe someone tripped over the power cord. :)

Trip in VA

07-27-08, 05:54 PM

You'd think that WNYE-DT would pick up MHz WorldView and stick it on a 25-3 or something, given that it fits right in with the kind of programming they air on the main feed...

- Trip

the-sloth

07-30-08, 06:14 PM

FYI- I got this response from WABC regarding their digital transmission (or lack thereof in my situation.)

We recently had to move our current DTV broadcasting to our backup location at 4 Times Square (Conde Nast) to accommodate antenna work at the Empire State Building. This may require some re-adjustment of receive antennas for close-in viewers. We expect to return to broadcasting from the Empire State Building by the end of next week.

SnellKrell

07-30-08, 06:29 PM

FYI- I got this response from WABC regarding their digital transmission (or lack thereof in my situation.)

Thanks for this information.

This makes sense now. The only stations that I normally watch O-T-A that are coming in OK are WNYW-DT (never on the WCBS-DT Combiner Antenna) and WABC-DT, which is temporarily transmitting from 4 Times Square.

Can't wait to see how the new Combiner, pre-2/17, will work. I just hope it's better than what we have been used to before all the work that has been taking place.

the-sloth

07-30-08, 06:35 PM

Thanks for this information.

This makes sense now. The only stations that I normally watch O-T-A that are coming in OK are WNYW-DT (never on the WCBS-DT Combiner Antenna) and WABC-DT, which is temporarily transmitting from 4 Times Square.

Can't wait to see how the new Combiner, pre-2/17, will work. I just hope it's better than what we have been used to before all the work that has been taking place.

i'm still kind of confused as to why i can't get a lock on their signal if they are broadcasting from conde nast.... that's only ~25 blocks from my apt. i mean it's not like i'm using rabbit ears... i have a DB2 mounted on the rooftop of a 6 story building with no nearby buildings that are much higher than my DB2.

SnellKrell

07-30-08, 06:47 PM

First of all, only one station has temporarily moved from the ESB to Conde Nast, WABC-DT.

As the WABC response mentioned, you're very close to the antenna and I would imagine that your antenna is aimed toward the ESB (unless you've got obstruction and are using a bounce, multipath signal). So, if it's worth your time and energy to move things to get WABC-DT, you probably would have to re-orient your antenna for this week.

If you are not receiving WNYW-DT now, it should have nothing to do with the work on the ESB. The station has not moved or changed the location of its antenna.

The only thing that I can think of is that since work is being done (it's supposed to be in the middle of the night, the station may have lowered its power.

The best thing to do is to wait until next week after all of the current changes have been made.

Hang in there!

the-sloth

07-30-08, 06:53 PM

sorry.... WABC-DT only. Everything else (WCBS, WNBC, WNYW, WWOR, WPIX, WNET) is locked at 95+ signal strength. WABC-DT used to come in at 95-100%, but a couple weeks ago it just disappeared. i tried reaiming my DB2, but the only way I could get a half decent (~65-70%) was to aim my antenna southeast (towards brooklyn), which caused me to loose all the other big channels.

while i'm sure my problem will be resolved when the go live again on ESB, but if they ever switch to Conde Nast i'm screwed. Will all of the stations continue to work together and keep the transmitters all centrally located so we don't have different channels coming from different locations?

i'm not sure if this is related, but WNYE-DT used to not work for me, but now it is...... did they move their transmitter?

seamus21514

07-31-08, 12:26 PM

I'm getting WNET-DT for the first time, ever. What changed? WABC-DT is fine for me also. WNYE-DT is annoying, 25-1 is streched to 16:9 automatically, so it looks terrible.

the-sloth

08-11-08, 12:31 PM

looks like we lost a few days worth of posts in this thread...

FYI- I pinged WABC again about their status and they said they hope to be back online at ESB this afternoon.

the-sloth

08-11-08, 01:39 PM

FYI- I pinged WABC again about their status and they said they hope to be back online at ESB this afternoon.

looks like WABC-DT is back online at ESB..... my signal strength is back to where it used to be.

sys_epoll

08-11-08, 10:13 PM

Anyone know if the combiner stations are at full power?
No WABC-DT at my location any longer. All the combiner
stations are weaker than before the work, and now I'm getting
periodic drop outs. If this doesn't improve, I'll soon be
paying for cable. Big step backwards for my location.

Roger Lococco

08-11-08, 11:29 PM

ABC's finally back and strong and stable, although it wouldn't surprise me if it goes kaput again.

Skyeclad

08-12-08, 12:21 AM

CBS is dropping out for me. I can't keep a lock on it. If I adjust my antenna I can get a better signal but I risk other stations if I do that.

SnellKrell

08-12-08, 07:27 AM

In my location, the East 60s and Second Avenue, my weakest signal from the Combiner is 11. This morning, reception is so bad, the signal keeps cutting-in and out.

Otherwise, have never had stronger reception including 13 - I no longer have to put my Silver Sensor on the windowsill for this station.

svec7186

08-12-08, 04:37 PM

i live on 256 st in riverdale and wcbs has been out for several days now. channel 9 and 11 are also out. wabc has a weak signal. i thought this was humidity but the prob is still here.

any news on the issue?

FoggyO

08-12-08, 06:52 PM

The situation currently reminds me of when I first bought my HDTV (end of 2006) and the signal would go off around 12:40AM several days out of the month. Eventually I received more and more stations until I received all the stations, including WNET 13-1 and 13-2.

Currently I don't receive channels 4-1 - 4-4 ( No Olympics) and 13-1 13-2. Pixeliation on 2-1. However last Friday I got Channel 4-1 - 4-4 and 13-2, but not 7-1 or 11-1. Pixeliation on 9-1 and 31-1. Crappy stations like 25, 29, 63 I get perfectly.

I figure over the next couple of months, ESB will tweek the signals and fix it.

Live on the North Shore of LI.

cgott42

08-13-08, 03:26 PM

tahoejoe

08-13-08, 11:18 PM

Lost my strongest station, WABC-DT ( 7) over the last few days. I'm down to 4( ok tonight, not so good last night) and 5.

Skyeclad

08-14-08, 03:03 PM

I wouldn't mind leaving some feedback on the situation for the Broadcast Mgr. and maybe get an update. Does anyone know the e-mail address?

svec7186

08-14-08, 04:35 PM

i've lost cbs, abc, 9 and 11 neverming alot of the higher channels.

this happaned within the last week or two. i've been using the zenith dtv converted for several months now without any problems.

O2C

08-14-08, 05:17 PM

I just bought a Pinnacle Pro HD Stick (USB Tuner) (I read it was top rated for pulling in weak signals) in order to record the olympics (and later the NY Jets games) in High Def onto my laptop. The problem is that I'm not getting some of the stronger signals.
I've tested it in 2 locations: White Plains , NY (zip code 10604) and Chestnut Ridge, NY (10952).
And in the White Plains located of the major locals - I'm only getting Chan 5 & 9 (WNYW-DT and WWOR-DT - getting good signal (80%) on both)
and in Chestnut Ridge - getting a bunch of channels but not WCBS.
I've tried the included antenna and PF-7 antenna (also recommended) and gotten the same thing.

Any ideas- to get WCBS-HD and WNBC-HD?

I just bought a Pinnacle Pro HD Stick (USB Tuner) (I read it was top rated for pulling in weak signals) in order to record the olympics (and later the NY Jets games) in High Def onto my laptop. The problem is that I'm not getting some of the stronger signals.
I've tested it in 2 locations: White Plains , NY (zip code 10604) and Chestnut Ridge, NY (10952).
And in the White Plains located of the major locals - I'm only getting Chan 5 & 9 (WNYW-DT and WWOR-DT - getting good signal (80%) on both)
and in Chestnut Ridge - getting a bunch of channels but not WCBS.
I've tried the included antenna and PF-7 antenna (also recommended) and gotten the same thing.

Any ideas- to get WCBS-HD and WNBC-HD?
I'm pretty sure that PF-7 is a poor antenna choice and I'm not sure who'd recommend it. It's UHF only and claims that it has an effective range of up to 15 miles. Some of your locals will be transitioning to the VHF range and those two locations are probably some 25 miles out.

Generally speaking, an outdoor antenna will be your best bet to really pull in channels now and in the future. Depending on your exact location, you may be able to get away with less. It could also just be all the juggling they had been doing with the ESB transmitters. Short of that, the advice I've got and others likely have are the same every one else gets, you can try using a silver sensor if you're stuck with an indoor antenna. Move whatever antenna to the side of the house and window nearest to the transmitters as TVFool directs and see if that helps any. It'll be very much hit or miss otherwise. I suspect it'll be a poor performer VHF-wise come transition, but who knows what may or may not work then.

mw390

08-14-08, 07:42 PM

cgott42

08-15-08, 12:19 PM

I'm pretty sure that PF-7 is a poor antenna choice and I'm not sure who'd recommend it. It's UHF only and claims that it has an effective range of up to 15 miles. Some of your locals will be transitioning to the VHF range and those two locations are probably some 25 miles out.

Generally speaking, an outdoor antenna ... Short of that, the advice I've got and others likely have are the same every one else gets, you can try using a silver sensor if you're stuck with an indoor antenna.

thanks I'll try the silver sensor -
is this it?
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Silver-Sensor-Amplified-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV3/sem/rpsm/oid/158313/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Also if it makes any difference - I'm using the antenna in a car (and laptop).

thanks,

cgott42

08-15-08, 12:41 PM

Are there any local B&M stores that carry the silver sensor? I can't seem to find one. I'd like to be able to buy it try it and if it doesn't help return it without having to pay for shipping both ways.

O2C

08-15-08, 12:55 PM

That CC model isn't the one I was referring to. The model is usually labeled as PHDTV1.

I feel I should also say that you'll find it recommended a lot here because in part as a very directional antenna, the silver sensor does a very good job eliminating multipath errors. People trying to tune within the city encounter that problem much more than that of a weak signal. I don't know what sort of situation you're in but I can't imagine trying to constantly re-aim the silver sensor while in a moving car. You'd probably be better off buying some sort of RV type antenna for car use and mounting it.

cgott42

08-15-08, 12:59 PM

actually it will be in a parked spot. Pretty much the same parked spot all of the time, would just like HDTV while I'm there.
So I don't think the repointing will be a problem as long as it's not super sensitive to exact positioning (ala satellite antennas).
But within a 5 feet should be the same spot.

Trip in VA

08-15-08, 01:01 PM

Also if it makes any difference - I'm using the antenna in a car (and laptop).

Hey, I have a kit like that!

I use my Silver Sensor in the car. It's not stable and it's not going to be--there's no antenna that will compensate for the Doppler effect--but it does a pretty good job when I'm stopped. Even when moving, if I can see the tower or I'm otherwise pretty close, it's usually stable enough for me to get the captures I want for RabbitEars.

I'd be curious to find out how the Pinnacle stacks up to the DViCO FusionHDTV5 that I have.

- Trip

cgott42

08-15-08, 01:02 PM

aha
I see which one you're talking about.
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV1-Silver-Digital-Antenna/dp/B0007XDI54/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218817650&sr=8-3
Funny - I can't find anyone who sells that (B&M)

cgott42

08-15-08, 01:06 PM

FYI:
this is where I saw the PF-7 highly rated:
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/AntennasDirect-PF7-reviews.html

SnellKrell

08-15-08, 05:30 PM

The beauty of the Silver Sensor is that it's highly directional - and if you're talking about using it in a car - unless you park and find the antenna's sweet spot, fuhgettaboutit!

It's a great antenna, designed with the BBC in England, but no antenna is going to be perfect.

If you don't have line-of-sight to the transmitting antenna, more than likely, you will be dealing with multipath signals. And this is where the Silver Sensor shines - it can lock on reflected signals quite well.

Home Depot had it listed on its Web site, not sure of in store availability.

BVfan

08-17-08, 10:57 AM

Falcon_77

08-17-08, 02:10 PM

I will be in NYC mid September. Staying just east of Central Park on 78th St. Will I be able to get OTA HD at that locataion or should I just not worry about bringing along my HD stick/attenna for my computer?

I looked on AntennaWeb.org and it did not even show a CBS affiliate that was HD OTA.

Ah, AntennaWeb does it again. Try a TVfool.com plot for the location instead. You will probably need to fiddle with the location a bit, to deal with the reflections. What do you have for an antenna?

As for CBS HD, attached is a screen cap I took of WCBS from Mystic, CT last month.

Skyeclad

08-18-08, 11:07 AM

Has anybody contacted the Broadcast Manager for an update? If not, I would like to if an e-mail address is available.

gauras

08-18-08, 03:56 PM

Hi Folks,
Here is the name of the broadcast manager.

The Empire State Building - Joe Maguire, Broadcast Manager

I cannot find his email address.

They screwed up something big time with the recent work on the antenna at the esb.
I used to be able to get channel 13.1 from central jersey using a cm4228.
Now I hardly get any signal.

Anyone know why they messed with the antennas? If it is to make ota available to more people they are making a big mistake, it has worsened.

I would appreciate if you could share any more information about this problem in this thread.

tenant13

08-18-08, 05:57 PM

gauras

08-18-08, 07:19 PM

Skyeclad

08-18-08, 09:49 PM

Antenna reception is way up for me tonight. I'm getting CBS at 90%.

OWENF

08-20-08, 07:41 PM

These guys all the time keep messing up with the antennas.

Same thing happened with WHYY/Delaware (PBS from Philadelphia).

I used to get a good signal from them, and the same crap they decided to move from
channel 50 to 66 uhf and changed their antenna coverage. Now I don't get a blip.

Finally twiddled with my antenna and was glad to be able to pick up NY WNET, but alas
they had to mess it up again.

Now that the transition date is nearing , I don't understand why these people keep changing things, because come Feb 2009 anyway there are going to be moving to vhf 13 . Can't they wait?

WHYY ch. 12 philly switched from 55 to 50 uhf because of some special deal
with ? (Qualcom) or another wireless carrier that was awarded that freq.
If you search you will see what others have to say on this
They then had to lower power because of another station in/near Montclair,NJ. WHYY has not been on 66 uhf in the philly area.
Regards
Owenf

picaman

08-21-08, 11:22 AM

Very helpful thread for someone like me who knows very little about all this. I've read back a few months worth of posts and have learned a tremendous amount. I've cancelled the cable TV and I'm not looking back! : )

I have a Mac Mini with an Elgato EyeTV Hybrid tuner hooked up to an HD monitor. I live in Riverdale, in the Bronx, ~14 miles from the ESB. I bought and returned several rabbit-ears style antennas that were recommended online -- the RCA ANT525 seemed to work the best, but with inconsistent signal quality despite me constantly moving it. The indoor directional antennas I purchased at Best Buy etc. didn't work at all. I finally decided to try a DB2 from Antennas Direct. The telephone agent spent quite some time asking me questions and then recommended that I try the Clearstream 2. I put it indoors on an old mike stand by the window, and now have 100% signal quality and no less than 85% strength on each of the 24 channels I found using auto-detect. And I haven't had to move it once. Boy am I happy with that antenna. It may be overkill but having mucked around so much with other antennas, I don't care at this point.

Here are a few things I've learned from the thread (I think...); please correct me if I'm wrong:

-- The only channel I'd like to get that I'm not getting now is WNET 13.1, and they are broadcasting on low power until the transition. Evidently I should start getting it after that.

-- My Clearstream 2 antenna picks up UHF and "high VHF" channels, so there's a possibility that I won't get WABC after the transition with this antenna, because then they'll be broadcasting on low VHF.

-- After the transition, all the stations are going to ramp up their xmit power, so anything I'm getting now I'll get even better then, and perhaps I'll get even more channels.

One other question: is there a database online that lists the mhz the stations broadcast on? For example, WCBS is at 725.0. I ask because if you have this number you can manually add channels to the Elgato tuner list, and I'd like to monkey around with that.

Thanks in advance for your comments, suggestions, and advice for this newbie.

Trip in VA

08-21-08, 11:30 AM

Here are a few things I've learned from the thread (I think...); please correct me if I'm wrong:

-- The only channel I'd like to get that I'm not getting now is WNET 13.1, and they are broadcasting on low power until the transition. Evidently I should start getting it after that.

Correct.

-- My Clearstream 2 antenna picks up UHF and "high VHF" channels, so there's a possibility that I won't get WABC after the transition with this antenna, because then they'll be broadcasting on low VHF.

Incorrect. WABC-DT will be on channel 7, which is the lowest channel that is still "upper VHF." Granted, you may still have trouble with it, but it won't be because it's on low-VHF.

-- After the transition, all the stations are going to ramp up their xmit power, so anything I'm getting now I'll get even better then, and perhaps I'll get even more channels.

Not all of them will boost power. Some stations will increase power on the ESB, but not all of them. Some of the stations in New Jersey will, others won't. In New York, the big boost will probably come whenever Freedom Tower is finished and the stations move up there.

One other question: is there a database online that lists the mhz the stations broadcast on? For example, WCBS is at 725.0. I ask because if you have this number you can manually add channels to the Elgato tuner list, and I'd like to monkey around with that.

Thanks in advance for your comments, suggestions, and advice for this newbie.

http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/catvfreq.html

Just use their physical channel (WCBS-DT is channel 56, for example) and that list will give you a frequency near the one they're using (if you have to add 1.75 MHz to get whatever the El Gato wants for WCBS-DT, then consistently add that to every one of those numbers).

- Trip

picaman

08-21-08, 11:54 AM

Thanks very much for the quick reply and the additional info. The link makes perfect sense.

StudioTech

08-21-08, 11:13 PM

Am I the only one that has noticed that WCBS isn't IDing their digital channel like they do their analog?

In other words, I've only seen "WCBS-TV New York" like we've seen forever, but never "WCBS-TV/DT New York" or "WCBS-TV WCBS-DT New York"

I remember the station at one point using "WCBS-TV New York DT 56" but even that's not correct per FCC guidelines.

seamus21514

08-22-08, 12:36 AM

I can't get WPIX on DT? Any reason?

SnellKrell

08-22-08, 07:32 AM

I can't get WPIX on DT? Any reason?

Ever since the new Combiner on the ESB was put into service, WPIX-DT, at least where I live, has had the lowest signal reading of all the stations including WNET-DT!

As of the other day, my reading for Channel 33 (WPIX -DT) is even lower.

Don't know what's going on.

O2C

08-22-08, 12:55 PM

FYI, no problem with WPIX here in Brooklyn. I'm no longer able to tune in WNET anymore though.

SnellKrell

08-22-08, 02:50 PM

Obviously, the new fill-in panel antenna on the S.E. corner of the ESB, below the 86th floor, is doing its job supplementing the Combiner's mast antenna for better reception in Queens and Brooklyn.

boylan13

08-22-08, 07:00 PM

Obviously, the new fill-in panel antenna on the S.E. corner of the ESB, below the 86th floor, is doing its job supplementing the Combiner's mast antenna for better reception in Queens and Brooklyn.
I'm in Queens (Astoria) and get pretty much everything except WNET.

When you're talking about a "fill-in panel" in the southeast corner of the ESB, I'm looking over at the ESB now from my office in Manhattan and see a structure about two stories tall just below the observation platform on the southeast corner, positioned maybe 2-3 feet out from the wall. Is this the panel?

-CB

boylan13

08-22-08, 07:09 PM

I noticed the same thing: my channel 13 (in Jersey City) just vanished as of few weeks ago. I get all the networks even though CBS used to be impossible to receive. I would gladly trade all of them for PBS though...
From what I've heard, the new antenna being used for WNET transmits using circular polarization (CPOL) toward the center of Brooklyn in about a 90 degree arc. That would probably make it tough to receive from anywhere in NJ.

But viewers within that 90 degree arc (which should include parts of Queens and Staten Island) maybe be able to get good results with an antenna designed for CPOL reception made of two orthogonal dipoles in quadrature. I'm checking in with the guy who owns/runs Terrestrial Digital (aka "Antennas Direct") to see what they have that might suit this type of reception.

But if anyone in the area has such an antenna, try it out and see what you get from WNET.

-CB

SnellKrell

08-22-08, 07:10 PM

Sounds like it.

There's another panel array on the N.W. corner, also below the 86th floor that will only be used as a backup.

boylan13

08-22-08, 10:52 PM

Sounds like it.

There's another panel array on the N.W. corner, also below the 86th floor that will only be used as a backup.

That one seems even bigger - a huge white cylinder. I figured that was being used for something. So it's just a back-up for now?

BTW, I snapped a pic from my office window with my phone earlier this evning (attached). Pretty bad quality but you can see the cylindrical antenna on the middle left of the picture (NW corner) and sort of make out the other panel on the opposite corner. You can also see a few of the other antennas mounted to the side of the spire and on the radio tower itself, though they're a bit fuzzy.

Since 9/11 more and more antennas have been added to the ESB and it's starting to detract from its architectural elegance. Hopefully when the Freedom tower is finished, they can take a few of these antennas down.

-CB

ElVee

08-23-08, 12:55 PM

Can anyone recommend an antenna installer in the Bethpage area?

POWERFUL

08-23-08, 05:18 PM

Look up Variety TV. Great reviews from all here

Hunter Mackenzie

08-23-08, 07:18 PM

im in the Elizabeth NJ area and Channel 7 still has little to no signal......any one have an idea of when they will restore to full power i used to get mid 90's on a regular basis

SnellKrell

08-23-08, 07:44 PM

What disparity there appears to be since the Combiner was revamped.

Channel 7 was the last to fire up its transmitter from the new installation - they continued for a while on the station's backup facility from 4 Times Square (Conde Nast).

My reception, using a Silver Sensor on the floor of my living room, in the same position I had used to receive signals from the orginal Combiner, now, overall is getting stronger signals than ever.

I realize that each "signal meter" is different and you really can't compare one with another, but here are my current digital transmission readings off the ESB. As many know, Channel 5 was never a part of the Combiner project.

2 - 83
4 - 87
5 - 63
7 - 88
9 - 78
11 - 52
13 - 64

The biggest changes I see are 11 being so relatively weak, and for the first time, I'm receiving 13.

I have no line-of-sight and am dealing with a lot of multipath signals.

At least for me, the new Combiner has improved my reception tremendously.

Go figure!

boylan13

08-23-08, 11:56 PM

I have no line-of-sight and am dealing with a lot of multipath signals.

At least for me, the new Combiner has improved my reception tremendously.

Go figure!
Congrats on getting 13. I just installed a new DISH receiver here yesterday and added the locals from antenna and it's reading 75% on Chanel 13 (lower than everything else, but still decent). Unfortunately I can't actually see the picture yet, as the DISH receiver is not authorized yet. It shows me the channels received and their respective strength but will not display them until the box is authorized.

I have a medium range Yagi style directional UHF antenna on my roof in Astoria, which is probably overkill for everything but 13 since I'm only 2 miles away. I had been using a standard VHF/UHF low gain outdoor antenna for the other set, split a couple of ways and this one has been spotty with 13 so I may experiment. It will actually be nice on February 18th when I don't have to worry about low band VHF reception any more (needed now for a couple of DVD/HDD recorders with analog tuners).

But you say you have multipath issues - have you played around with a variable attenuator at all? For me these have worked wonders at certain installations. It lowers both the main and reflected signal, of course, but it can lower the ghost signal to the point where it no longer interferes with the main. They sell for around $12 at Solid Signal.

-CB

fredd

08-24-08, 03:10 AM

hi picaman, welcome to the forum. I have the same setup you do with a mini & elgato -great combo for HT. Here are some of the channel frequencies the hybrid reports here in central jersey:

Ch# Station Frequency (UHF-MHZ)
2-1 WCBS 725
3-1 KYW-DT 545
4-1,2,3 WNBC 557
5-1 ,2 WNYW 653 (-2-MY9 SIMULCAST)
6-1,2,3 WPVI 773
7-1,2,3 WABC 659
9-1,2 WWOR 617 (-2-FOX SIMULCAST)
10-1,2,3 WCAU 791
11-1,2 CW11 587
17-1,2 WPHL 713
25-1,2 WNYE 533
29-1 WTFX 641
31-1,2,3,4ION 569
35-1 WYBE 593
52-1,2,3,4WNJT 647
57-1 WPSG 581

PLUS A HOST OF OTHER FOREIGN LANGUAGE STATIONS

Unfortunately channels 2,5, & 7 dissappeared once the antenna work started at the ESB.
I think the separation is 6MHz between stations

raylock

08-24-08, 08:19 AM

It will actually be nice on February 18th when I don't have to worry about VHF reception any more (needed now for a couple of DVD/HDD recorders with analog tuners).

-CB

OK, here is a question that probably already been discussed, but I don't want to read through 7000+ posts:eek: I understand the analog stations are going away next February, but do we know that none of the stations will be moving their digital signals down to the old vhf frequencies?

SnellKrell

08-24-08, 08:21 AM

WABC-DT will move to 7

WPIX-DT will move to 11

WNET-DT will move to 13

tamahome02000

08-24-08, 08:23 AM

OK, here is a question that probably already been discussed, but I don't want to read through 7000+ posts:eek: I understand the analog stations are going away next February, but do we know that none of the stations will be moving their digital signals down to the old vhf frequencies?

7, 11, & 13 according to antennaweb. Also njn will keep 8.

ElVee

08-24-08, 09:13 AM

Look up Variety TV. Great reviews from all here

Thanks, I'll give them a call tomorrow.

I currently have a VHF/UHF antenna on my chimney. I'm not not sure which type - from afar it looks similiar to a CM3271.

At my previous home, in Jersey City, I had a CM4228 on a rotator, which I loved. I brought the whole setup with me to Bethpage.

Now I'm trying to decide if I should use my current VHF/UHF antenna and just mount that with the rotator, or should I use the CM4228 UHF antenna.

Are all or most HD broadcasts UHF?

Is there any reason to still have a VHF?

I'm one of those guys that likes to get as many channels as I can. :D

POWERFUL

08-24-08, 01:29 PM

Red back a few posts. There are some channels going back to VHF. Use both antennas if you can.

raj2001

08-24-08, 03:22 PM

I am in Wantage, NJ (Sussex county) and these are my readings:

WCBS-DT - 54
WNBC-DT - 77
WNYW-DT - no lock
WABC-DT - 78
WWOR-DT - 62
WPIX-DT - 77
WNET-DT - nada

Lots of other signals, including WNYE-DT, that I don't care too much about.

It is really rough out here as we are ~48 miles from the ESB and blocked by hills.

Curiously enough I can get philly if I aim the antenna there. So I might end up putting up a 2nd antenna for philly.

I'm using a CM4228 and an antennacraft preamp. I might ditch the antennacraft and get a CM7777. The receiver is my Series3 TiVo.

raylock

08-24-08, 04:19 PM

7, 11, & 13 according to antennaweb. Also njn will keep 8.

Thanks to both. Guess I will have to get a new antenna. Currently only have uhf.

mw390

08-25-08, 09:36 AM

Thanks to both. Guess I will have to get a new antenna. Currently only have uhf.

Don't jump the gun just yet. I can get 7,9,11,& 13 pretty clear using a UHF antenna, so I am pretty sure that I'll be able to get them when they go digital

raj2001

08-25-08, 06:59 PM

Thanks to both. Guess I will have to get a new antenna. Currently only have uhf.

It depends.

Unless you're interested in TV DX, just wait until Feb 17 2009 before you decide whether you need another antenna.

raylock

08-25-08, 07:26 PM

It depends.

Unless you're interested in TV DX, just wait until Feb 17 2009 before you decide whether you need another antenna.

Good advice. Thanks all

Ray

Straphanger

08-25-08, 08:57 PM

WNYW has degraded recently and has become unstable on my HTPC setup. Maybe they're working on the antenna for them now?

raj2001

08-26-08, 05:33 PM

WNYW has degraded recently and has become unstable on my HTPC setup. Maybe they're working on the antenna for them now?

WNYW is pretty much nonexistant where I am. I thought it was just me, but I'm glad it's not.

raj2001

08-27-08, 09:59 AM

Looks like they did something to WCBS-DT last night.

Around midnight the signal dropped to an unusable level, and this morning it was stronger than ever, about as strong as WABC-DT and WNBC-DT (which are my strongest).

dagger666

08-27-08, 10:03 AM

my TR-40 can puck up digital channel 13 for the first time but it's single is weak and hard to lock in, am 14 miles form NY City. How come CBS isn't using any of it's sub channels and 7,4 only using 3 out of 4.

SnellKrell

08-27-08, 10:59 AM

Previously, Channel 2 would use a sub-channel for expanded coverage of events such as the Masters, and four years ago, I can remember the station using 2.2 for additional feeds from the Republican Convention.

It seems as if CBS executives have chosen, at this point, to devote all the bandwidth to its main HD channels across the country.

Come NFL season, you'll read a lot of postings about the superior quality of CBS's HD picture vs. NBC's with that network's stations use of two sub-channels - at least, this has been the case for previous years.

steve-avs

08-27-08, 11:03 AM

I'm located in Carmel, Putnam County, about 50 miles north of Manhattan. As best I can tell I have a line of sight view to the Empire State Building antenna. Signal levels vary somewhat due to atmospheric conditions. Daytime generally brings the weakest signals which strengthen as the the sun sets. I think I get a good read on the relative power levels between the stations which maybe some readers will find helpful.

WCBS - 2.1 is now very weak, generally not receivable in daytime hours for me and not reliable in the evening and overnight hours either. I hope this changes before the US Open, NFL and new season shows begin. WCBS had a strong reliable signal until the recent work on the ESB antenna, but it's been the pits lately.

WNBC - 4.1,4.2,4.4 is putting out a decent signal that is reasonably reliable. Occasional dropouts happen more in the daytime than the evening. The Olympics were watchable and often quite good, but I hope they are able to boost the signal to WNYW levels before the transition. WNBC wasn't available before late May at my distance, so I'm grateful I didn't have to wait until 2/09 to receive it.

WNYW - 5.1,5.2 is the only station putting out a strong signal that I expect won't change after the transition. If you have trouble with this station, you'll probably have to play with positioning your antenna.

WABC - 7.1,7.2,7.3 used to be my most reliable signal with a power level matching WNYW. That is no longer the case and the loss coincided perfectly with the day they switched to the ESB as was reported a few weeks back in this forum. Today WABC is receivable but suffers from dropouts and as always is worse in the daytime. Its signal is now weaker than WNBC.

WWOR - 9.1,9.2 hasn't changed much with the move to the ESB. It was never a strong signal and at times will suffer from dropouts. It needs a boost in power to be classified as reliable, though I can usually count on receiving it's signal.

WPIX - 11.1,11.2 is somewhat better after the recent changes though it improved somewhat before the move to the ESB. I'm not sure, but think it's slightly worse after the move to the ESB, though it's much better than it was for the past few years. I think they had other equipment upgrades before the ESB antenna move. Dropouts are still present, but less than they used to be, but it still needs more power to be classified as reliable.

WNET - 13.1 + ??? I have never seen.

WNYE - 25.1,25.2 is second in signal level to WNYW and I would call reliable. Not much to watch here unfortunately and 25.2 still hasn't been able to eliminate the noise on the traffic cams kind of making it a useless signal.

WPAX (?) - 31.1,31.2,31.3,31.4 has signal levels better than WABC, though I haven't noticed much change to the ESB, if they're on it. In sampling the channel it sometimes seems to have dropouts due to overcompression, rather than a weak signal, but I don't spend any time on this channel to really judge how reliable it is.

41.1, 47.1 seem to have better signal levels compared to many of the big boys. I don't spend any time with these either, but they seem to be reliable.

WFUT 68.1 generally doesn't appear to have any signal, but I have received them in the past.

Ranking the channels from highest to lowest signal level:
very good - 5.1,5.2
good - 25.1,25.2
good - 41.1
good - 47.1
fair - 4.1,4.2,4.4
fair - 31.1,31.2,31.3,31.4
fair - 11.1,11.2
fair - 9.1,9.2
poor - 7.1,7.2,7.3
very poor - 2.1
bad - 68.1
bad - 13.1

What bugs me the most is the lack of information coming from the stations. At a time when they are pushing the DTV transition and trying to inform the public about the availability of converter boxes, they should also be letting the public know about the quality of their signals. I'm sure some folks have been terribly disappointed with their new converter boxes and it's probably driven some to satellite and cable solutions, when in reality it's just the lousy state of some of the transmissions that is causing poor results.

Every station should have an information page on their websites keeping the public informed as to the status of their transmissions and their plans, if any, to improve or degrade the signals in the near future through the transition. Anyway, that's how I feel about it and I wanted to get it off my chest.

raj2001

08-27-08, 08:24 PM

Skyeclad

08-27-08, 11:25 PM

boylan13

08-28-08, 02:18 AM

Nice work Steve. I'll give you the report from a little closer to the action in Astoria, Queens about 2.5 miles line of sight from the ESB with roof access. The incentive was my wife shaming me into getting WNET-DT (Channel 13). "You're editor of a home theater publication and you can't even get PBS-Kids or Channel 13 for our poor suffering children?" Well, it didn't go exactly like that, but that was the gist.

So I climbed up on the roof tonight, replaced a flimsy old Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna with Antenna Direct's brand new ClearStream 2 (C2) antenna, which is a small (10"x20" overall) sleek looking dual loop design, optimized for Upper VHF and UHF broadcasts. I'll attach a PDF scan of the fact sheet for anyone interested. It's rated for "up to 50 miles." I don't know about that but it does work extremely well at 2.5 miles! I did a local channel scan on my DISH receiver and I'm getting these signal strength numbers at 1:30 this AM:

Channel (call sign) - signal strength

2.1 (WCBS-HD) - 100
4.1 (WNBC-DT) - 91
4.2 (WX-Plus) - 91
4.4 (WNBC4.4) - 91
5-1 (WNYW-DT) - 96
5-2 (WWOR-DT) - 96
7-1 (WABC-HD) - 100
7-2 (WABC+) - 100
7-3 (WABCnow) - 100
9-1 (WWOR-DT) - 97
9-2 (WNYW DT) - 97
11-1 (TheCW11) - 100
11-2 (LATV) - 100
13-1 (WNET-HD) - 87
13-2 (WNET-SD aka "PBS Kids") - 87
13-3 (WNET-13.3 aka "V-me") - 87
25-1 (WNYE1) - 73
25-2 (WNYE2 aka "The Traffic Cam Channel") - 73
31-1 (ION) - 83
31-2 (qubo) - 83
31-3 (IonLife) - 83
31-4 (Worship) - 83
41-1 (WXTV DT) - 100
69-1 (WFUT-DT) - 75

So channel 13 is back (at least for us). Order has been restored in the galaxy.

Although some might say I don't *need* the local channels since I have DISH, I like to have them so I can make use of the third tuner in my ViP722 DVR, and it's always nice to have local access in case of a big storm (or a small asteroid) throwing out satellite reception. (edit - also, DISH does not currently offer PBS in HD (WNET), so that's the one I really needed).

Good luck to all!

-CB

steve-avs

08-28-08, 12:04 PM

Steve,

Great recap of the recent broadcast signal performance. Up to tonight, I agree with everying that you wrote. I'm about 50 miles from ESB in Fairfield County, CT. Unfortunately tonight the signal was as bad as I've seen it since the work began. Hopefully this is just a one-time issue due to more work being done.

Yes, I noticed the signals completely disappear from 2, 7, 9, & 11 at times after 9:30 pm last night. I've never seen that during prime time before, but I thought, good, something is being done and maybe with great urgency. Later, around 11:30 pm, the signals seemed stronger, but having just tested the signals at around 10:30 am, nothing seems to have really changed. Though it's still good to see work being done, so we can keep hoping.

I definitely agree though, more information from the ESB broadcast management would be nice given the disruptions. It's hard to believe that a modern broadcast medium not providing any info regarding what amounts to dead air for many people.

Yea, it's almost unbelievable, but maybe they don't want the advertisers to know.

I know that someone posted the name of the broadcast manager but not the e-mail but I think we should contact them and let them know we're interested in more info and that service has suffered since the changes were made.

I'm all for that. I did send some remarks to WCBS yesterday. They have a "technical ..." something category listed on their "contact us" page. So far no response.

steve-avs

08-28-08, 12:05 PM

I'll trade you WFUT for WNYW. :)

WCBS got stronger last night for me but WNYW is still very low. I may play with positioning the antenna this weekend, but I shouldn't have to unless they're not broadcasting from ESB right now.

If it's really play, then yes, you should be able to get WNYW. Keep in mind though the poor state of many of the other signals, so not to go too crazy with finding the ideal spot. Since your dealing with hills, so probably bounced signals, and with the switch to VHF-HI for 7, 11 and 13 in 2/09, you're probably due for another play session next year.

Have fun!

steve-avs

08-28-08, 12:07 PM

Skyeclad

08-28-08, 02:09 PM

Yes, I noticed the signals completely disappear from 2, 7, 9, & 11 at times after 9:30 pm last night. I've never seen that during prime time before, but I thought, good, something is being done and maybe with great urgency. Later, around 11:30 pm, the signals seemed stronger, but having just tested the signals at around 10:30 am, nothing seems to have really changed. Though it's still good to see work being done, so we can keep hoping.

Yea, it's almost unbelievable, but maybe they don't want the advertisers to know.

I'm all for that. I did send some remarks to WCBS yesterday. They have a "technical ..." something category listed on their "contact us" page. So far no response.

I checked about 9pm last night and I could tell things were bad when I couldn't get a signal for 2,4, or 7 without adjusting my rotator. After that I got a marginal signal but what really struck me was that 5 was marginal which is highly unusual. Like you, I used to have the best signal from 5 and 7. Now only Fox rates a full 100(except for last night).

Luckily I get WTNH-DT out the back of my CM4228 at 100 which is also an ABC affiliate. I hope they return to reliable signal levels before the Fall TV season starts.

As for ESB management, I might try calling them to see if I can get someone in their broadcast mgt. dept. Who knows, I might get lucky.

jchtrout1

08-28-08, 04:01 PM

I,m up in Southbury Ct.
I have a 150' tower, with individual antennas cut to frquency.
I too had great relaible signal from NYC with the exception of 11, 13 and 4.
After the recnt work on the ESB, I have had much difficulty with all of the digital signals. I dont seem to see a difference between day or night, just a very low signal on my scope and recievers.
Channel 2 CBS, used to be my strongest channel, followed by 7, then 5 and 9 in both analog and digital, respectively.
After firing off mass emails and phone calls to each station, I did recieve an email from Channel 2 Engineering attesting to the new antenna placement having phase problems which he hoped would be worked out in the next week.

As far as the relative reduction in analog signal strength, I,m not sure why that has happened, but it is and has been measurable by my daily recordable log over the last 12 years and it is definitely not what it once was. My thought is that they have reduced output power during the antenna construction phase or are just not that concerned with their analog signal.
Good report from Carmel and lower FC. Thanks,
Jeff

MickleSt.

08-28-08, 05:30 PM

Boy, am I glad I found this place!
I thought my new HDTV and/or antenna were dying on me! I was getting pretty good reception up until... well, just in time for the Olympics, which I was looking forward to,naturally.

Still getting WNYW, as others have noted, and Ch.25-1, and a couple of the Spanish language stations. Otherwise, the major networks suddenly pooped out on me!

I'm not a major technophile, so some of what's being tossed around here is flying right over my head, but at least now I understand that my equipment is still probably OK and I'll just have to wait it out and try another scan from time to time.

MickleSt.

08-28-08, 06:51 PM

And oh yes, I contacted WCBS, WABC and WNBC to try to find out what had happened to their previously very good signals. That was a week ago, and so far no response. I also sent an email to Richard Huff of the Daily News, but he is on vacation. It would be nice to have broadcasters/the ESB actually say something to the people they are supposed to be serving.

gauras

08-28-08, 07:18 PM

What pisses me off is why mess with a good working system when you are making it
worse by trying to improve it?

I wonder what the goal is with all this antenna work at the ESB. Could't they wait for
the cutover next year or maybe a month or two before cutover, that is if the antenna improvements are really necessary?.

All that was needed before the screwup was an increase in power for WNET 13 and a lot of people would have been happy.

The stations don't give a damn about ota viewers because they don't get any money out of us. They make all their money by programming rights with the cable and satellite feeds.

So unless we can get hold of the advertisers on the stations and complain to them nothing is going to happen.

Same thing happened to WHYY. They gave up channel 55 to qualcomm for some good sum of money, moved to channel 50, reduced the power, screwed up the antenna coverage pattern, and any amount of calls to them fell on deaf ears.

SnellKrell

08-28-08, 07:34 PM

No, it's not that simple!

This new Combiner will be the 2/18/09 home for WCBS, WNBC and WWOR - all UHF channels.

A second combiner, Hi-VHF will be operational for WABC, WPIX and WNET - those stations on 2/18/09 will migrate.

Both Combiners will have to have backups - the new one that is currently being used now has it in place.

I'm one of the lucky ones where the new Combiner has helped tremendously, with the exception of now a weak signal for WPIX-DT (33).

If things go well, rarely will people say something.

But, it's good that the ESB and stations know of the very disappointing reception too many people are now receiving.

boylan13

08-29-08, 02:46 PM

Well, kudos to the wife, but 2.5 miles with LOS is like giving Michael Phelps a pool length lead at the start of a race. It's a little too easy. I do suspect that many city residents are having problems with the current signal levels. The issues are different than for those of us at greater distances, but multipath problems are probably causing a fair share of dropouts at these reduced signal levels, especially for those using indoor antennas and/or without a LOS view of the ESB. You're very fortunate signal wise, but its probably not terribly representative for the large majority of tuners.
Well there are over 10 million people living within 10-12 miles of the Empire State Building, including thousands of home owners in parts of Long Island, Queens, Staten Island, Brooklyn, the Bronx, New Jersey, Manhattan, etc.

And some renters and condo/coop owners can get access to their roofs if they only ask. Not all coop and condo boards (or landlords) will allow it, but it never hurts to ask. I've had decent luck with this doing antenna installations for friends in the city and a couple in the 'burbs. Some buildings I've been to in Queens were actually pre-wired with antennas 20-30 years ago, and occasionally these jacks are still available in the apartments (though many have been removed or replaced with cable TV feeds).

The purpose of my sharing these results is to show what is possible if you're closer to the broadcast tower and have good equipment and access to your home's or building's roof. The previous VHF/UHF antenna I had was in the exact same location and was still not able to lock to WNET due to the station's low broadcast signal strength. I guess that antenna was no Michael Phelps. :) But the C2 works great.

In terms of getting reception inside an apartment with no roof access, I've had pretty good luck with various unpowered indoor antennas, like the Terk HDTVi and even the Picture Frame antenna from antennas direct. In several cases, an inexpensive variable attenuator like this one at Solid Signal (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=1296F) helps to eliminate multi-path distortion, bringing a channel from pixelated to perfect by lowering the reflected image signal strength enough that it doesn't interfere with the main signal. Of course, it lowers the main signal strength too, but usually in the city, this is strong enough that you have some wiggle room. You can dial in the level of attenuation for the best results.

My two cents...

-CB

boylan13

08-29-08, 04:41 PM

Boy, am I glad I found this place!
I thought my new HDTV and/or antenna were dying on me! I was getting pretty good reception up until... well, just in time for the Olympics, which I was looking forward to,naturally.
What antenna are you using and do you have access to your roof or at least a window which faces South? Washington Heights isn't far from the ESB so with good equipment and proper placement, you might be able to get good reception today.

-CB

raj2001

08-29-08, 08:05 PM

If it's really play, then yes, you should be able to get WNYW. Keep in mind though the poor state of many of the other signals, so not to go too crazy with finding the ideal spot. Since your dealing with hills, so probably bounced signals, and with the switch to VHF-HI for 7, 11 and 13 in 2/09, you're probably due for another play session next year.

Have fun!

Well unlike most others here in town, I have an actual antenna tower which is 86 feet at the top. The tallest antenna on it tops out at 102ft. The TV antenna is at 70 feet.

So I think that if I don't get good results when lower, I may just put the antenna up higher.

I am also considering ganging another 4228. I better go hurry up and order it before CM goes and changes it up.

raj2001

08-29-08, 08:32 PM

Here are my latest readings. I bypassed a 4way splitter I had, which I was testing to the bedroom TV and home office.

Not going to include subchannels as they'll have the same strength.

2-1 WCBS 81
4-1 WNBC 87
5-1 WNYW hovering between 0 and 30. Signal is there, just not getting a lock.
7-1 WABC 82
9-1 WWOR 79
11-1 WPIX 83
13-1 WNET - nada. zero, zip, zilch.
25-1 WNYE 71
29-1 WFME 54 (They're in west milford, antenna is not aimed at them)
31-1 WPXN 71
41-1 WXTV 74
47-1 WNJU 0 (Again, aimed away from them, they're a Spanish broadcaster so I don't really need them)
48-1 WRNN 63 - Getting this one off one of the side lobes since RNN is north, not southeast like NYC
50-1 WNJN 77 (NJN in Montclair @ MSU, about 30ish miles away)
54-1 WTBY 75 - same situation as WRNN
58-1 WNJB 76 - Channel 8 physical, CM4228's screen acts as a VHF antenna I guess
63-1 WMBC 90 (The analog signal on this one is a real pest. It is roughly 15 miles away in Newton NJ and overloads my preamp, so aiming one of the nulls at them helps a lot)
68-1 WFUT 54

This is a CM4228 with a "permacolor" antennacraft preamp. I have a CM7777 to replace it as it has a lower noise figure. Climbing the tower this weekend.

The receiver is my series 3 TiVo.

My 2nd CM4228 is going to be ordered early next week as well. Want to make sure I get it before CM changes it.

ElVee

08-30-08, 06:52 AM

Thanks, I'll give them a call tomorrow.

I currently have a VHF/UHF antenna on my chimney. I'm not not sure which type - from afar it looks similiar to a CM3271.

At my previous home, in Jersey City, I had a CM4228 on a rotator, which I loved. I brought the whole setup with me to Bethpage.

Now I'm trying to decide if I should use my current VHF/UHF antenna and just mount that with the rotator, or should I use the CM4228 UHF antenna.

Are all or most HD broadcasts UHF?

Is there any reason to still have a VHF?

I'm one of those guys that likes to get as many channels as I can. :D

Variety TV of Massapequa came by yesterday and did a great job.

For now, I'm keeping my old Channel Master VHF/UHF combo. They cut in my CM rotor and I'm good to go.

If I find I want to reach a greater distance, I'll get the CM 3671 and they'll come back and install that for me too.

Great job Variety TV!

P.S. Still have a CM 4228 laying around unused

steve-avs

08-30-08, 11:49 AM

Well unlike most others here in town, I have an actual antenna tower which is 86 feet at the top. The tallest antenna on it tops out at 102ft. The TV antenna is at 70 feet.

So I think that if I don't get good results when lower, I may just put the antenna up higher.

I am also considering ganging another 4228. I better go hurry up and order it before CM goes and changes it up.

Wow! Now that's a tower. Okay, something must be amiss, so I searched for WNYW's FCC application and found it at:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101028495&formid=301&fac_num=22206

As you know, WNYW doesn't use the omnidirectional UHF antenna on the ESB, but their own dedicated antenna. In that application you'll find a link to a coverage map and a polar plot that shows their antenna to be highly directional and indicates your area probably isn't served very well. Buried in one of the other attachments is a different polar plot which seems to show many null areas. I don't have the expertise to read much more into it, but considering your incredible setup, I think it's safe to say that the weak signal your getting from WNYW is reality and there is nothing wrong with your setup.

In a later application, WNYW proposes to move the antenna further up on the ESB tower, but even if approved they're not expecting to proceed with that until 2010-2011, so it will be awhile. When done, the predicted coverage will include Sussex.

I'm amazed that your receiving WNJB on channel 8 frequency. I'm pretty sure you're way out of there coverage area, so that tower is giving you opportunities I wish I had. You might just be able to pull it off with WNYW and now we know what a challange and accomplishment that will be.

Please, keep us informed.

SnellKrell

08-30-08, 11:55 AM

When WNYW-DT increased its power, it had to change to a directional pattern becuase of Channel 44 in Atlantic City.

That's the reason for its null(s).

Falcon_77

08-30-08, 01:44 PM

Antenna Direct's brand new ClearStream 2 (C2) antenna, which is a small (10"x20" overall) sleek looking dual loop design, optimized for Upper VHF and UHF broadcasts.

Thank you for the report on this antenna. However, how does it look for analog 7, 11 & 13? I would also be curious to see how it performs on 2, 4 & 5 (for the few markets that will be using 2-6 next year).

I have yet to seen Antennas Direct provide any VHF gain plots for this new series, but I would be interested to find out what kind of performance they actually have there. Judging by its UHF dimensions, probably -10 to -3dB for 7-13. I would not imagine it has any performance for 2-6 (perhaps under -20dB). So much for smooth gain across "the entire DTV spectrum."

I am of the opinion that at least Low-VHF should be scrapped as re TV, but despite that most major markets won't be using it, it's still going to be around. Upper VHF (7-13) performance will be very important in most markets, post-transition.

raj2001

08-30-08, 05:02 PM

Wow! Now that's a tower. Okay, something must be amiss, so I searched for WNYW's FCC application and found it at:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101028495&formid=301&fac_num=22206

As you know, WNYW doesn't use the omnidirectional UHF antenna on the ESB, but their own dedicated antenna. In that application you'll find a link to a coverage map and a polar plot that shows their antenna to be highly directional and indicates your area probably isn't served very well. Buried in one of the other attachments is a different polar plot which seems to show many null areas. I don't have the expertise to read much more into it, but considering your incredible setup, I think it's safe to say that the weak signal your getting from WNYW is reality and there is nothing wrong with your setup.

In a later application, WNYW proposes to move the antenna further up on the ESB tower, but even if approved they're not expecting to proceed with that until 2010-2011, so it will be awhile. When done, the predicted coverage will include Sussex.

I'm amazed that your receiving WNJB on channel 8 frequency. I'm pretty sure you're way out of there coverage area, so that tower is giving you opportunities I wish I had. You might just be able to pull it off with WNYW and now we know what a challange and accomplishment that will be.

Please, keep us informed.

The irony of it all is that I work for a news corporation subsidiary. :D

Anyway tomorrow is the tower climb so let's see what I can get.

WNJB is actually easier than the rest. The problem with the rest is hills. Up here in Sussex county it's hills upon hills. The vernon valley is a giant dead spot but up in Wantage it's still doable.

There is actually a clearer shot to philly than there is to NYC.

seamus21514

08-30-08, 08:56 PM

njman

08-30-08, 10:54 PM

cgott42

08-30-08, 11:42 PM

thanks guys.
I bought the PHDTV1 and it helped me to get CBS-HD on my Pinnacle Ultimate USB stick tuner.
Now the question is how to also get VHF (as somethings I don't want to tape in HD (kids stuff) as it takes up too much room.
and also to pickup stations that I can't get reception for in HD.
Any ideas?

raj2001

08-31-08, 12:29 AM

A few days ago, I picked up very very clear analog signals of WPHL, WTXF, WPSG, and WFMZ from Philadelphia, on my rabbit ears. It was very strange, but cool, did anyone have this experience in Staten Island?

Probably tropo caused by temperature inversion.

It happens from time to time.

There were a couple days when I was getting every station in phila clear as a bell, analog and digital, for all of primetime. After about 3 days it went back to normal.

rothe

08-31-08, 08:05 AM

I am at certral NJ. I can get all of major networks except WCBS-DT and WABC-DT. Checked anatennaweb.org, both WCBS-DT and WABC-DT have the same distance and direction as WPIX-DT. I can get very good signal from WPIX-DT.

Does anyone know what the problem is?

thanks.

I'm in the Asbury Park area, about 35 miles south of the Empire State Building. I get CBS and ABC just fine. In fact, as of a few days ago, I'm now getting all of the VHF station's digital counterparts just fine, with the exception of WNET. Where in central NJ are you?

njman

08-31-08, 08:45 AM

i am at old bridge, 08857.

according to antennaweb.org, the distance is 33 mile.

n2ubp

08-31-08, 12:07 PM

Tropo from major storms, like hurricanes, does remarkable things to propagation. Start swinging your beams around and look for distant (DX) stations from hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles away.

Steve

raj2001

08-31-08, 07:10 PM

I put up the CM7777 to replace the 30db antennacraft.

I actually lost WNYE-DT. WCBS-DT is more stable now though.

I can definitely see a 2 gang 4228 in my future.

Still no luck with WNYW.

Everything else is unchanged.

raj2001

08-31-08, 08:13 PM

I put my antennacraft in series with the CM7777, cranked down the gain, and whoa... pulled in WNYW-DT quite easily, even on the TiVo S3.

But it's dropping out pretty often. With the 2nd 4228 in the mix I should be good to go, with just ONE preamp.

I may put the 4228 stack up higher, probably midway up the mast. I can't put it all the way up top as I have a UHF ham radio antenna all the way up top and I don't want it coupling.

I'm thinking I may end up homebrewing a lower noise preamp than what I have, or going with some lower loss cable.

In winter with the leaves gone everything will probably come in xtal clear, but at this point it's not just getting the channels, it's the challenge. :)

By the way I think 50% of my problems have to do with WMBC analog, which is probably overloading the living daylights out of my preamp(s) and desensing them really bad.

I'm also interested to hear if anyone in the area has tried OTA for the NYC channels. I've seen some TV antennas up, but those were probably there since there were only dirt roads in this town and no cable. I think pretty much everyone has given up and gone cable, except maybe those up on the hills.

njman

08-31-08, 11:04 PM

though it is still weak but I can watch it without any dropping off. WCBS-DT still the weakest station, don't know why.

raj2001

09-01-08, 08:31 AM

WNYW is consistent on my TV (Samsung 56"DLP) but nada on TiVo.

Skyeclad

09-01-08, 01:28 PM

CBS is marginal today but locked in, NBC is dropping out frequently. WNYW is fine at 80%+.

Reception for the various stations are fluctuating by the day and sometimes hour. I can only guess that their marginal signals are easily attenuated by the weather. :mad: How much longer is this going to take to resolve itself?

POWERFUL

09-01-08, 11:00 PM

At least for me WNYW was fine. I recorded Prison Break without any breakups.

boylan13

09-01-08, 11:13 PM

Thank you for the report on this antenna. However, how does it look for analog 7, 11 & 13? I would also be curious to see how it performs on 2, 4 & 5 (for the few markets that will be using 2-6 next year).
I can't find specs on that and my current use is with a DISH Network receiver that only looks for HD locals (it has only an ATSC tuner, no NTSC), so there is nothing to gauge signal strength on the frequencies that are not in use yet for digital broadcasts.

But let me plug it into a Sony HD DVR (which has both SD and HD tuners) and see how it looks.

OK, I did that and unfortunately the Sony doesn't have an analog signal strength meter. But visually the analog channels 7-13 look OK with some mild ghosting due to multi-path. 2-5 are pretty distorted. I hadn't heard about low VHF being used for any digital TV broadcasts, but if that's the case in your area, then the C2 is probably not the best fit. For UHF and upper VHF, it should work fine, range and terrain permitting.

raj2001

09-02-08, 09:44 AM

At least for me WNYW was fine. I recorded Prison Break without any breakups.

Out East (Long Island) you should be fine, but up here in Northwest NJ we're pretty much SOL.

Well at least they simulcast on WWOR-DT so even if cable goes out I should have a backup.

I put back the Antennacraft preamp and I could get everything except WWOR and WNYE again. Realigned the antenna and now no dropouts on anything, but still no WNYE.

Still going to try the 2 gang 4228. In fall when the leaves are gone I may also see some improvement.

svec7186

09-02-08, 04:20 PM

i live in the bronx near the hudson river. we lost cbs, pbs and most of the higher channels several weeks ago. 11 is weak. several months ago i was getting about 45 channels including all sub channels until the antenna broadcast change issue.

thanks

reddice

09-02-08, 04:39 PM

I got my first HDTV in July. I have Dish Network and upgraded to a 612ViP receiver. I was all excited about being able to record off three tuners. Two satellite and one over the air until I realized how bad the over the air reception was.

To get to the point I ended up hooking up my antenna to my TV and using its tuner. I tried the Terk Indoor antenna and I am currently using the Radio Shack UFO antenna and at best I can get the New York stations at about 50 to 70 signal strength yet and this boggles my mind and peeves me off is that I can get that waste of a space religious station WFME which is the most furthest way a full 4 to 5 green bars with no break up and I peaked it at about 90 signal strength yet New York stations which I am only about 4 miles from I get a yellow 3 bar signal strength to 4 bars at best and they drop out if I just breath on the antenna.

Although I am able to get 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 25 the reception varies from 3 to 4 bars to drop outs. 29 waste and 47 I can get 4 to 5 bars and they are both over 15 miles away. I never once got a New York station at 5 bars, ever. By the way I am near the downtown Brooklyn area around Borough Park. I should not need no roof antenna since I live in the city and not outside the city.

raj2001

09-02-08, 08:30 PM

reddice

09-03-08, 01:20 AM

reddice

09-03-08, 01:25 AM

Also if multipath is a problem I fell sorry for all of those poor people who can't afford new TV's, cable or satellite and get there OTA stations using a converter box and a cheap $10 antenna from their old TV after 2/19/2009. If they knew it was going to be a problem then they should have left it the way it was. Yea I know that they wanted to action off the 700 Mhz off. Does not good that Google did not win the bid and the two evil's Verizon and AT&T won some of the spectrum.

dturturro

09-03-08, 07:23 AM

raj2001

09-03-08, 08:52 AM

raj2001

09-03-08, 08:59 AM

What annoys me is that the two most distant yet strongest signal stations I get are not even in HD. They broadcast in 480i. Still clear but I want OTA HD stations to be full strength. I know that Telemundo has a HD station then why doesn't 47 broadcast in 1080i or 720p.

Aren't some of their shows filmed and produced in Latin America, where they don't have the facilities to produce anything in HD?

The problem is bigger than the Spanish language broadcasters. It's all about market and availability of source material, so for them, going HD doesn't make sense.

It would make sense that the Spanish language broadcasters have strong OTA signals because a lot of their audience gets TV OTA. Besides, WNJU 47 broadcasts from NJ (I think it's Paterson), so the signal isn't as affected by strong multipath as it is for stations that broadcast from Empire.

As for wanting your HD stations full strength, put your antenna outside. Full strength isn't necessary for a perfect picture, mind you. I get by just fine with 70s and 60s.

Falcon_77

09-03-08, 09:55 AM

Multipath was always a problem. It manifested itself as ghosting before, now it's dropouts.

Yes, but the problem with digital signals is that they don't show you how bad the signal looks. There is no ghosty mess to look at or a message saying, "error - too much multi-path," etc., most will just say, "weak or no signal" or something similar. I think a lot of rabbit ear owners are going to be disappointed.

I have had good luck with a Silver Sensor in downtown San Diego and Boston for UHF, but I'm not optimistic about VHF reception prospects in similar situations for the stations moving back there. Ignoring other factors, it's not easy getting an indoor directional antenna for VHF (even for 7-13).

reddice

09-03-08, 01:34 PM

I think that WNJU and WFME run on the same broadcast tower.

I get most of my New York HD locals on Dish Network except for channel 9, 13 and 21 and I was looking forward of getting 13 and 21 OTA. Lets just hope that Dish Network carries those HD feeds soon.

I get fine with 70's and 60's strength too. It is just that every now and then it drops out. I guess that is multipathing.

I am not going to get another antenna. I like the look of the Radio Shack UFO Starship Enterprise antenna. We will see after February when the New York stations will be running we hope at full power.

SnellKrell

09-03-08, 02:10 PM

WLIW-DT no longer has an HD feed.

BrooklynGal

09-03-08, 05:37 PM

Actually since you live in the city, you may need a directional antenna to counter the effect of multipath caused by all the tall buildings, which is especially a problem with digital television.

You don't need a very high gain antenna, just a directional one.

One of my friends who works for ABC TV recently got a digital TV and put an indoor antenna on it, but couldn't get all the channels because of all the multipath. He lives in Manhattan.

I'm in an apartment building in Homecrest (Bklyn), a bit farther south than you, Reddice. It's 10 miles to the Empire State Bldg. from here & the landlord will not allow an antenna on the roof, period, so that's out.
Till early July we averaged 3 stations OTA -- with plenty of static --- over the rabbit ears that came with the TV. 7 was always strong. 13 was shaky but usually there if we fiddled enough with the antenna & then we would get 1 or 2 others (channel 2 only showed up Sunday mornings for some bizarre reason). 4,5,9,11 were often too static-y to watch, but some of the time 1 or another of them came in well. I don't think we ever had ghosting (from what I understand, it would show as a duplicate of the picture to its left??), just awful static with lines zigging across & interrupting completely periodically (when a bus or train went by; when someone stood in certain areas of the room or house). so i'm not sure that multi-path is a problem here or not.

What I do find is that even though I can stand on Coney Island Avenue (a few blocks away) & point to the Empire State building on the horizon & it doesn't move, no one antenna setting is "the right one all the time" for any station. Not VHF, not UHF. Never has been 1 direction that always worked for rabbit ears, either... Can't explain it, but because of this, I find the UFO with remote extremely helpful. I've stored a few of the choices that each work some of the time for each station, & am in business. Also, I get great reception (when I get it) on the highest amp, & less to none with the middle or lowest one. So I'm not sure that a directional antenna without an amp is a better solution. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can explain what I'm experiencing better to me.

In July I put in the Zenith DTT-901 -- what a picture! Can't believe it! -- & started experimenting with antennas, I found that the 2 best turned out to be Radio Shack models. The Delta (no amp) got digital 4,5,7,47, 68 fairly consistently; 2, 9, 11, 26, 31, 68 sometimes & 13 never. The Zenith shows a signal bar that changes colors by area.(no/weak signal range...poor signal range...good signal range). All signals received via Delta antenna were either in the lowest range or, at best, at the bottom of the mid-range (poor reception). The pic was fine, but it went out frequently. Also, since we like 13 & they aren't ramping up their power yet, we want to receive it over the analog pass-through. On the analog pass-through, the Delta only got 7 reliably. (We kept it cause it was inexpensive & the best we found till then, but kept looking).

2 old antennas which were in the house & 6 new ones we trial-ed later -- the best by far is the UFO, which I found out about lurking here on the antenna discussion. It brings in all the stations the Delta does - plus 29 ;) in the middle range of the bar (poor) Mostly, the signal is farther along the bar. 4,5,7, 11 even just touch the good signal part of the bar now & then... but, this is amped up on the highest setting & if I lower the amp, the signal goes. Still no 13, although on 2 occasions it showed it on the no...weak signal area without anything on the screen, so I have that setting saved & can re-try periodically / after 2/09. Using UFO on analog-pass through: best we've ever seen 13 since living here! (also getting 7,9,11,26,50,47 on analog -- to greater or lesser extent ;) -- not that anyone really wants to watch analog if we can watch digital. Be nice to get 50, though, that's also PBS. only shows on analog, though & is too static-y to watch or understand. Something else to play with...

Basically, when it's good it's great (except 13). But it's only good for all stations at the same time for brief periods. The signals suddenly drop off & I have to switch the antenna to another saved direction to get the channel back, & sometimes re-scan for channels again after doing so. It's occurred to me that maybe whatever is interfering with the signal is shifting it someplace (the water?) & that by changing to (my own by trial & error) alternate, I am getting the reflected signal? Till the weather or whatever changes again...

Will this constant adjusting ever end?

reddice

09-03-08, 11:14 PM

I don't think that antenna web and tv fool are that accurate. The 11217 zip code. It shows all the new york stations as green and WFME as yellow saying I would have problems picking up that station yet I get that waste the strongest. They probably did not update it. It does show 47 as running the most power.

Also why did WLIW stop broadcasting in HD? That is stupid since they have many good PBS programs that I would love to be able to watch in HD.

Falcon_77

09-04-08, 09:11 AM

OK, I did that and unfortunately the Sony doesn't have an analog signal strength meter. But visually the analog channels 7-13 look OK with some mild ghosting due to multi-path. 2-5 are pretty distorted. I hadn't heard about low VHF being used for any digital TV broadcasts, but if that's the case in your area, then the C2 is probably not the best fit. For UHF and upper VHF, it should work fine, range and terrain permitting.

Thank you for the update. It sounds like it's at least passable for 7, 11 & 13 at your location and perhaps 8 as well (its request to move to Times Square was granted).

Antennas Direct's claims of consistent gain throughout the entire DTV spectrum don't seem to be accurate, but designing an antenna to include 2-6 doesn't make sense. Leave Low-VHF for specialty antennas as that band adds the most size to an antenna and isn't needed for most areas.

raj2001

09-04-08, 09:55 AM

I don't think that antenna web and tv fool are that accurate. The 11217 zip code. It shows all the new york stations as green and WFME as yellow saying I would have problems picking up that station yet I get that waste the strongest. They probably did not update it. It does show 47 as running the most power.

They are accurate, they just don't take into account buildings and trees.

The buildings are causing your multipath issues.

raj2001

09-04-08, 10:01 AM

Yes, but the problem with digital signals is that they don't show you how bad the signal looks. There is no ghosty mess to look at or a message saying, "error - too much multi-path," etc., most will just say, "weak or no signal" or something similar. I think a lot of rabbit ear owners are going to be disappointed.

Correct. Signal strength meters are also misleading. They're simply a measure of signal quality (bit error rate) and not actual strength in dbm or anything like that.

I have had good luck with a Silver Sensor in downtown San Diego and Boston for UHF, but I'm not optimistic about VHF reception prospects in similar situations for the stations moving back there. Ignoring other factors, it's not easy getting an indoor directional antenna for VHF (even for 7-13).

I work in midtown manhattan and I have a TV on my desk at the office. I have a little vertical whip which I use with it. It has really bad ghosting on the analog channels, but perfect picture on the digitals.

As for directional antennas with VHF, in strong signal areas, you can use a UHF directional and it will have some effect. Of course since you're dealing with an indoor antenna, you will always have multipath to deal with.

raj2001

09-04-08, 10:06 AM

Thank you for the update. It sounds like it's at least passable for 7, 11 & 13 at your location and perhaps 8 as well (its request to move to Times Square was granted).

Which NYC TV station is on 8?

Trip in VA

09-04-08, 10:09 AM

Which NYC TV station is on 8?

WNJB-DT 58-1. PBS from New Jersey.

- Trip

raj2001

09-04-08, 12:41 PM

WNJB-DT 58-1. PBS from New Jersey.

- Trip

I figured as much, but was quite surprised that NJN will now have a transmitter in NYC versus having its transmitters in NJ.

After checking the FCC records, it seems as though they are indeed moving there.

I wonder why the move is being made, co-channel perhaps? Or simply better facilities on 4 times square?

raj2001

09-04-08, 12:54 PM

I think that WNJU and WFME run on the same broadcast tower.

For the current digital, the lat/long is different, so I doubt it. But they are close.

Analog 47 is currently on the ESB.

SnellKrell

09-04-08, 02:35 PM

I figured as much, but was quite surprised that NJN will now have a transmitter in NYC versus having its transmitters in NJ.

After checking the FCC records, it seems as though they are indeed moving there.

I wonder why the move is being made, co-channel perhaps? Or simply better facilities on 4 times square?

Although it's not spelled out, WABC-DT desperately wanted to revert to Channel 7 for its digital transmission - giving up Channel 45. With the New Jersey Network controlling Channel 8, there had to be a "co-location" ESB or the Conde Nast Building at 4 Times Square - that's how it came about.

Going back to almost the beginnings of WNJU, Channel 47, a New York (ESB) and Channel 13's transmission point have been in mid-town.

Stations in various parts of the DMA get permission from the FCC to use
mid-town Manhattan (ESB or 4 Times Square) as their transmission locations.

MickleSt.

09-04-08, 04:45 PM

What antenna are you using and do you have access to your roof or at least a window which faces South? Washington Heights isn't far from the ESB so with good equipment and proper placement, you might be able to get good reception today.

-CB

Sorry for the delay, Boylan; I was on vacation. I have a Phillips MANT-410 amplified antenna. The window in the TV room faces North. However, that didn't matter until a few weeks ago. I was often getting pretty good reception with the antenna sitting on a chair next to the TV. Occasionally putting it in the window might help a bit, but not much.

As of last night, I'm still getting WNYW-HD (5-1) and its sister station WWOR on 5-2, and pretty well getting Ch. 25 in HD. Plus various Spanish language channels. I'm relying on the readout of the "info" menu on my Toshiba 26" LCD, which gives these stations three bars out of five. The other major networks' digital channels are reading "Digital signal too low." I may be able to get access to the roof, but I'm already on the top floor of a 5th floor walkup with most surrounding buildings about the same height--except for the Columbia Presbyterian Hosptial a few blocks to the south of me.

Well, I've lived with just Netflix for a few years now, so I suppose I can live with reruns of The Simpsons and Seinfeld instead of Jeopardy! and Wheel of Fortune. :cool: (But I do so despise Fox news...)

reddice

09-04-08, 05:16 PM

Thanks. You all cleared up a lot of information. I am new to Digital TV. Got my first HD TV in July.

By the way I forgot to say I have my Radio Shack UFO antenna in the closet. My room is very tiny and that is the only place I can fit it. I know I can get better reception because I put it on my bed (I have a long coax cable) and I pulled in 4 green bars on 4, 5, 7 and 9.

jpr281

09-04-08, 07:38 PM

If anyone's watching the Giants game on WNBC, could someone tell me the avg bitrate you're getting? Thanks.

BrooklynGal

09-04-08, 09:22 PM

"Signal strength meters are also misleading. They're simply a measure of signal quality (bit error rate) and not actual strength in dbm or anything like that."

bit error rate? dbm? somebody take pity on a Sr. Citizen & explain what these are & how they affect what I see on my signal strength bar?

also, I'd appreciate it if someone could answer my previous post & tell me whether what I describe is or isn't multi-path? & if it is, based on what I'm describing, would you recommend a directional antenna with amp? Is there such a thing for indoor use?

the ufo in the closet?? you are closer than I am, so can probably do even better than I -- take the time to find the best place for the antenna, then figure out how to rearrange things sometime in the future so you can keep it there... since they say higher is better -- maybe you can put in a shelf above normal reach where it can sit undisturbed. btw, I found the best angle for the rabbit ears to receive analog via pass-through (7 & up, extended a bit under 2 ft), & leaving them extended isn't affecting my UHF reception at all. So once you set up what you will need in feb for the vhf stations, you won't have to keep climbing up to adjust it if you do put it way up somewhere.

channel 8? will that be what it transmits on -- another VHF broadcast? or will it be UHF? When will it happen? It would be very nice to see more PBS!

SnellKrell

09-04-08, 09:32 PM

Channel 8 is VHF. It's the New Jersey Network/PBS out of New Brunswick, NJ.

It should be transmitting from the Conde Nast Building, 4 Times Square in Manhattan as of midnight, 2/17/09.

Skyeclad

09-04-08, 10:22 PM

Horrible reception tonight again. Little to no lock on 2-1, 4-1 or 5-1. The exception is 7-1 which is along with My 9 and the CW, is tolerable. As we going into the Fall TV season, it is is terribly disappointing that the work done in early August is either not complete or is poorly engineered.

Falcon_77

09-04-08, 11:47 PM

Although it's not spelled out, WABC-DT desperately wanted to revert to Channel 7 for its digital transmission - giving up Channel 45. With the New Jersey Network controlling Channel 8, there had to be a "co-location" ESB or the Conde Nast Building at 4 Times Square - that's how it came about.

All ABC O&O's were required by corporate to revert to their analog channels. I'm not optimistic that this was a good idea, but at least there was only one ABC O&O in Low-VHF (WPVI in Philly). I just don't see 7 working very well in big cities for DTV, but five of the top seven DMA's will have a 7, (four of which will be ABC).

Falcon_77

09-05-08, 12:06 AM

bit error rate? dbm? somebody take pity on a Sr. Citizen & explain what these are & how they affect what I see on my signal strength bar?

Unfortunately, many DTV tuners don't bother to separate signal strength from quality (SNR) (like most cell phones unfortunately). I have a TV which shows both SNR and signal strength, as well as CRC errors which helps to figure out what is going wrong.

A strong signal filled with noise and reflections, etc., can often be worse than a very weak signal with no noise or reflections.

I thought I had saved images of analog reception from downtown Boston, but I am unable to find them. I remember that the signals looked "scrambled," so much so as to be un-watchable in most cases. However, most DTV stations were just fine with the tuner I was using (On-Air GT). I'm holding no hope for VHF there, however, even though it was a UHF antenna.

KML0224

09-05-08, 09:19 AM

Has anybody northeast of New York City had problems receiving WABC-DT on channel 45? As some as you might know, WEDH-DT (PBS) channel 45 of Hartford signed on their digital channel last week from Rattlesnake Mountain in Farmington, CT, which is a few miles west-southwest of downtown. WEDH-DT has a null towards the southwest to protect WABC-DT, but I'd imagine that some of you in western or southern Connecticut must be having problems with both stations.

Skyeclad

09-05-08, 12:21 PM

Gang,

I e-mailed my frustrations about poor reception to Joe Maguire, Broadcast Manager at the ESB and here is his response regarding the ongoing work at the ESB:

Thank you for the comments on your DTV reception. While I can’t comment on the specifics of projects here at Empire, I can tell you that work continues and you should expect to see an improvement in reception fairly soon. Design and implementation of transmission systems at the building is provided by the broadcasters. If you want information concerning specific stations, it would be best for you to contact them directly.

Joe Maguire

Broadcast Manager

Empire State Building Co., LLC

raj2001

09-05-08, 12:40 PM

Unfortunately, many DTV tuners don't bother to separate signal strength from quality (SNR) (like most cell phones unfortunately). I have a TV which shows both SNR and signal strength, as well as CRC errors which helps to figure out what is going wrong.

I noticed that you can see the SNR in the "dvr diagnostics" screen if you have a HD TiVo (Series 3 or TiVo HD).

raj2001

09-05-08, 12:53 PM

steve-avs

09-05-08, 01:02 PM

I was hoping I could watch the US Open coverage on WCBS-DT today but the signal is in the gutter again, so no such luck.

I called WCBS two days ago. I looked at a couple of online phonebooks and the number they gave for CBS television is out of service. I then called CBS radio and they transferred me to the TV division, I requested the engineering department and a fellow answered, but claimed as far as he knew they were broadcasting at full power. He did say he was not involved with that aspect of the department, asked for my name and number and said he would pass along my comments.

Today, I called CBS radio again, but asked for CBS TV's direct number before transferring me. It is 212-975-2161. The TV number was busy on transfer and as well as a couple of minutes later. I did finally get through and asked for engineering, but this time I got voicemail. I left my name and number, as requested, with the message that the WCBS-DT signal is not receivable today, has been poor for about 6 weeks since the move to the new antenna and had hoped to hear when the signal might return to what it was before that move.

I find it hard to believe that WCBS is unaware of the problem with their broadcast signal, yet with this being the condition for over a month and the comments from the fellow I spoke with, maybe they're not. An onslaught of telephone messages might convince them if they aren't aware of the problem. Should anyone call them and get some useful feedback please let the rest of us know. Thanks.

raj2001

09-05-08, 01:08 PM

Steve,

I can receive WCBS-DT56 just fine, and I am 48.5 miles away behind hills, too.

I get occasional dropouts but that is due to weather and trees.

Where are you exactly?

steve-avs

09-05-08, 01:08 PM

steve-avs

09-05-08, 01:38 PM

Steve,

I can receive WCBS-DT56 just fine, and I am 48.5 miles away behind hills, too.

I get occasional dropouts but that is due to weather and trees.

Where are you exactly?

I'm in Carmel, Putnam County, about 50 miles just slightly east of north. Atmospheric conditions are ruling my reception of WCBS and to a lesser extent, WABC and WWOR. Last night the signals were booming in. WNYW was pinning my TV's signal meter at 100% and WCBS was in the high 70's to low 80's. But with late morning, usually around 11:00 AM the signal degrades and today WCBS varies between 2 and 35. Some days it can be a little better and almost watchable. I saw most of the tennis coverage on Monday with some dropouts, while Saturday and Sunday were impossible to watch.

My antenna is about 35 feet high and there are some trees in the line of sight to the ESB. Your tower is probably making the difference in your WCBS reception.

I want to emphasize that I'm at the mercy of atmospheric conditions. For example I recorded the 8pm Greatest American Dog and 9pm Criminal Minds on Wednesday on my Tivo HD. I got all of the dog show and sampled it to see that there were very few dropouts. The Tivo only reported 55 minutes for Criminal Minds and on sampling what it was able to record was laden with dropouts.

Skyeclad

09-05-08, 02:04 PM

Today, I called CBS radio again, but asked for CBS TV's direct number before transferring me. It is 212-975-2161. The TV number was busy on transfer and as well as a couple of minutes later. I did finally get through and asked for engineering, but this time I got voicemail. I left my name and number, as requested, with the message that the WCBS-DT signal is not receivable today, has been poor for about 6 weeks since the move to the new antenna and had hoped to hear when the signal might return to what it was before that move.

I find it hard to believe that WCBS is unaware of the problem with their broadcast signal, yet with this being the condition for over a month and the comments from the fellow I spoke with, maybe they're not. An onslaught of telephone messages might convince them if they aren't aware of the problem. Should anyone call them and get some useful feedback please let the rest of us know. Thanks.

Thanks for the tip, I just got off the phone with CBS Engineering. I expressed concerns with the signal levels and dropouts experienced and they said that work had begun on the antennas before the Olympics but had been stopped during the Olympics. They have two antennas, one that covers 3/4 and another that covers the remaining 1/4. He believes that they *should* have resumed work but the person I spoke with wasn't sure. He did say that their Chief Engineer was in contact with the ESB management but that he was unaware of the progress except to say that he believed work was due to be completed a couple of weeks ago.

I gave him my e-mail address and told him I could relay my experience with the signal levels relative to prior to the project's beginning and could provide updates as work progresses. He said he would forward my e-mail to the Chief Engineer as well as to the guy who tests signal levels throughout the DMA.

I mentioned to both the ESB and CBS that my main concern was that with no warning of dropouts and with no ETA about the completion of the work being done, where can we get reliable information in the event of an emergency?

Not sure if this helped but at least we know that there is an expectation of an improvement and that it seems like that time frame is measured in days or weeks and not months.

steve-avs

09-05-08, 03:10 PM

Thanks for the tip, I just got off the phone with CBS Engineering. I expressed concerns with the signal levels and dropouts experienced and they said that work had begun on the antennas before the Olympics but had been stopped during the Olympics. They have two antennas, one that covers 3/4 and another that covers the remaining 1/4. He believes that they *should* have resumed work but the person I spoke with wasn't sure. He did say that their Chief Engineer was in contact with the ESB management but that he was unaware of the progress except to say that he believed work was due to be completed a couple of weeks ago.

I gave him my e-mail address and told him I could relay my experience with the signal levels relative to prior to the project's beginning and could provide updates as work progresses. He said he would forward my e-mail to the Chief Engineer as well as to the guy who tests signal levels throughout the DMA.

I mentioned to both the ESB and CBS that my main concern was that with no warning of dropouts and with no ETA about the completion of the work being done, where can we get reliable information in the event of an emergency?

Not sure if this helped but at least we know that there is an expectation of an improvement and that it seems like that time frame is measured in days or weeks and not months.

Thanks for your report. It's surprisingly difficult to get hard information. Waiting for the Olympics to conclude makes sense. I keep thinking about other important broadcasts that they would like to get out with a good signal.

US Open - not as yet
US Open Men's final and Jet's first game on Sunday.
Start of fall season shows - 9/22 I think.
Nielson ratings period - not sure, probably October.

Maybe we should start a pool.

It can't hurt letting them know we're having problems receiving the signal and it might help (WCBS-TV: 212-975-2161). I doubt the digital broadcasting is under the full watchdog eye of the FCC yet, so whatever requirements there are for emergency broadcasts probably doesn't come into play until the full transition, but I'm just guessing.

Thanks again.

raj2001

09-05-08, 03:20 PM

I'm in Carmel, Putnam County, about 50 miles just slightly east of north. Atmospheric conditions are ruling my reception of WCBS and to a lesser extent, WABC and WWOR. Last night the signals were booming in. WNYW was pinning my TV's signal meter at 100% and WCBS was in the high 70's to low 80's. But with late morning, usually around 11:00 AM the signal degrades and today WCBS varies between 2 and 35. Some days it can be a little better and almost watchable. I saw most of the tennis coverage on Monday with some dropouts, while Saturday and Sunday were impossible to watch.

Last night was probably due to tropo. I was told (I wasn't home to verify) that there would be some fantastic tropo openings last night, so I guess there were. We had WBNG from Binghamton as well as the philly stations (KYW-DT, WCAU-DT, WPHL analog) booming in yesterday morning. Daily in the morning about an hour or so after sunrise we get some fantastic openings and TV comes in from all over the place. Then my WCBS-DT 56 signal drops out for a bit when the fading starts to take effect, but is good for most of the day, except close to sunset. After sunset it is usually fantastic.

Anyway, keep us informed as to your progress. I am quite surprised that CBS would be improving Channel 56 when they are going to 33 post transition, so I am not putting much hope into 56 getting better.

reddice

09-05-08, 04:33 PM

the ufo in the closet?? you are closer than I am, so can probably do even better than I -- take the time to find the best place for the antenna, then figure out how to rearrange things sometime in the future so you can keep it there... since they say higher is better -- maybe you can put in a shelf above normal reach where it can sit undisturbed. btw, I found the best angle for the rabbit ears to receive analog via pass-through (7 & up, extended a bit under 2 ft), & leaving them extended isn't affecting my UHF reception at all. So once you set up what you will need in feb for the vhf stations, you won't have to keep climbing up to adjust it if you do put it way up somewhere.

I have it in the upper portion of my closet on a shelf so it is high up. Funny this yesterday was when I moved the antenna to a certain position 29 and 47 were very weak but I pulled in 4, 7, 9 and 11 with 4 green bars. I especially don't care about 29 or even 47 since I don't speak spanish. Also changing the direction with the remote improved reception. 7 was good on 7 position. 4 was good on 8 position. 11 was good on the 4 position. 9 was good either way.

This was yesterday. I don't know how good the reception would be today. As for channel 2 it still breaks up and the most I can get is a yellow signal. It is probably because they are running on a high channel number 56 so they have to run it at more power. It should be much better when they move to channel 33.