Lots of dropouts for me as well. Even my strongest channels are dropping out.

I originally attributed it to the weather, but seeing as reddice is having difficulty as well, I am thinking otherwise.

Signals are back to usable levels today, but attenuated by the rain, so WCBS-DT is still dropping out. :(

it's laughable to me that my strongest stations now are NJN and WNET.

Yeah, I'm getting what I usually get (which is everything except WNET, WNYW and of course stations on the Island like WLIW and WLNY).

WCBS-DT56 is still dropping from time to time. I have a 2nd 4228 on order as well as a VHF antenna that I'm readying for post transition VHF.

Wondering if I'd be able to get by with an indoor antenna in washington heights.

I'm unsure how to interpret antennaweb's information (seems it says I need the largest directional antenna). Is that really true? If washington heights has issues getting reception of NYC channels, how can anyone get good reception? we're at the highest point in NYC and relatively close to the transmitters.

I have found antennaweb's site filled with incorrect information. Take large grains of salt with this one.

I would try, making sure you can return it if it doesn't work for you, a Silver Sensor indoor antenna. It's highly directional which means it helps to deal with multipath
problems.

Washington Heights is pretty high, (those living in Todt Hill on Staten Island will fight you about the highest point in the City), and yes, you're relatively close to the transmitting antennas, but do you have line-of-sight to the Empire State Building?

Do your windows face south toward 5th Avenue and 34th Street?

Try the Silver Sensor, it does wonders for me in the canyons of the East 60s.

Conspiracy theorists will say that CEA's antennaweb.org is designed to sell cable TV and satellite subscriptions.

Whether or not that is the case, it says that I can only get two DT stations here with a large directional and preamp.

With a large directional (cm4228) and preamp (antennacraft permacolor 10G212) I can get nearly all of the NYC stations, and some of the philly ones.

So yes, take it with a big 40lb bag of diamond crystal.

Hi folks, just checking back in. I live in Brooklyn, about 5 miles away from ESB. My last post was about giving up on OTA since I was having huge multipath issue (living on a ground floor apt in a neighborhood of 4-7 story apt buildings with no LOS to the tower). This is still the case - I luckily get all my locals in clear QAM down the pipe from Time Warner CATV where I buy my internet. Every now and then I switch off the clear QAM to the Silver Sensor to see if things are getting better. They have (a little) in that I can get a bit of 9.1 and 11.1 (which I hadn't before), but I have been noticing something peculiar that I wonder if anyone can shed any light on. This is what's crazy: every time a car or truck drives past my window, the signal drops out. Being in NYC, this happens all the time. Do these vehicles interfere with the signal that much? OTA is pretty much unwatchable with these dropouts. Some of the higher power stations are less affected (signal gets a bit pixelated instead of dropping out completely). But it is without fail my major cause of anguish in the OTA experiment. My setup is a Silver Sensor going via RG-6 into a Samsung 24" HDTV (T240HD) - I did say I live in a tiny apartment right? No roof access or building exterior access, so the antenna gets (so far) the best reception up on a ledge above the street facing window about 8ft off the ground, facing the ESB. All of these channels come in clear with 4 or 5 (out of 7) bars (according to the TV's signal meter): 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 25 - but when the dropouts occur, the signal meter goes to zero and then back up. This problem is independent of the usual multipath dropouts (which I have also been unable to solve). If it's this difficult for me, I can't imagine what it will be like for non-techy folks here in the city to tune in DTV when analog goes out! The NY Post will have a field day I bet. Anybody have any clues? I'm thinking of trying a different antenna - clearstream or DB-2 are my current candidates... Also, I saw good references for a signal attenuator above. Is all this maneuvering jumping the gun? Should I try something else, or even just wait until after February to make another decision? As I said before, I'm quite happy with the free QAM I'm getting from the cable line, but I'd like to have a solid backup when "cable goes out" or they decide not to keep the local HD channels in clear QAM. Also, solving this problem will somewhat satisfy the geek in me, so any help is appreciated.

looks like the HDHomeRun I just got works great with ClearQAM that I'm getting via cable, so not going to worry about antenna for now :)

thanks anyways :)

This is what's crazy: every time a car or truck drives past my window, the signal drops out. Being in NYC, this happens all the time. Do these vehicles interfere with the signal that much?

Yes. Vehicles, being made mostly of metal, act as reflectors. As they are moving, it results in dynamic multi-path, which tends to play havoc with even the most modern tuners. Most modern tuners can handle static multi-path (e.g. off buildings) ok. Maybe ATSC-M/H can cure the dynamic problem, though that is designed for mobile use (not HD).

Perhaps a more directional antenna can help, such as a CM4221. It is more directional in the vertical plane than the horizontal plane. Angling it up might help as well, to try and cut down the reflections from the vehicles. An attenuator may also be worth a try.

I wonder how VHF will perform at your location in February? What do analog 7, 11 & 13 look like?

WPIX
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=664787


WPXN
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1257061&Service=TV&Form_id=387&Facility_id=73356


WABC
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=664665

WNET
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101233708&formid=387&fac_num=18795

Falcon, thanks for your reply. Those are great suggestions I will try when I get the chance (time, money, etc.). I'm glad I'm not crazy for having seen dropouts coordinated with passing cars - I suppose an 8ft high over ground level antenna is destined to have these kinds of problems. As far as the high VHF, the silver sensor picks them up with the usual ghosting, but not disastrous. I am anxious to find out what it'll all look like when everybody's got their full power antennas on and analog interference is "attenuated". This kind of sparkling discussion makes me wonder what kinds of conversations went on around the local watering holes and rotary clubs back in the day when analog TV was first getting turned on. Then again, I often wonder why I should get excited when the end of the transmission line is something like "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader". It's the medium... mode of delivery... not the product...

The real "final" product will be when the freedom tower is built. Empire is simply not an ideal place to broadcast from, and some stations will be getting power increases when the FT is built.

It's going to be a lot of years until the Freedom Tower is up - 2012?

I scratch my head when I realize that the Empire State Building's first steel was installed
on St. Patrick's Day, 1930 and the building officially opened on May 1, 1931.

No computers then, no helicopters to place girders, no modern technology!

Just dedicated hard workers with little bureaucracy getting in the way!!!

How many people fell off?

How many people fell off?

2 Fell - one down an elevator shaft and the other off of a scaffold.

3 Additional people died during contruction - one struck by a truck,
one hit by a hoist and one killed by being in a blast area.

Hope that answers your question!

Maybe a little beuracracy or time could have helped those 5.

Part of the problem (and I don't blame them) was the victims' families. Some wanted NO development on that site, ever again, just a memorial.

But I'm glad at least some agreement was reached, and no you can't please everybody but I'm glad that something is being rebuilt, and that it includes a memorial.

Anyway, I still can't believe it was almost 7 years ago.

Greetings from the Jersey shore!

Specifically, I'm just south of Asbury Park, about a half-mile west of the beach, and 37 miles south of the Empire State Building. I've heard that reception near the ocean poses its own difficulties, I'm guessing because the waves themselves can create multipath and signal dispersion just as wet leaves in trees can mess up a signal for reception further inland.

Anyway, yesterday, I reoriented my antenna, and I'm now getting consistent signal strength readings of 95 (out of 100) for all but a two of the NY metro networks' digital stations. The weak ones are WNBC-DT, which is receivable but only came in at 60 during the five minutes that I was checking, and WNET-DT, which doesn't come in at all (zero signal strength).

I'm using a Radio Shack VU-190XR antenna, mounted in the attic. My two story house faces 30 degrees east of magnetic north, so the attic runs roughly north-south. The attic is just barely wide enough to cant the Rat Shack antenna to point directly at the ESB (15 degrees E of mag N from me). I should also mention that I noticed a night-and-day difference just by moving the antenna back about six feet from the front wall of the attic. Even though it wasn't looking through asphalt shingles like the sides of the attic have, I guess the wooden walls were causing some cancelling reflections.

The signal is getting helped along by a Channel Master 0064 pre-amplifier, with the FM trap enabled and tuned to reject a low-power FM station that's only a half-mile away. All of this is piped into a home theater PC running two Hauppauge HVR-2250 dual-tuner cards controlled by Beyond TV. I mention the Hauppauges because I doubt that they're the most sensitive tuner cards available -- with two tuners per card, they're already splitting the signal -- so there might still be room for improvement.

I know the story with WNET -- they're not planning on going to full power until the February cut-over, when they move their digital broadcasting from their current, temporary UHF channel back to VHF channel 13. All of that's fine by me, because I receive a good, strong analog signal from all of the VHF-hi stations, including WNET. I expect that I'll pick up a similarly strong digital signal from them after the transition.

But what's the story with WNBC-DT? Are they still working on their transmitting antenna? According to TVfool.com, they should be my third strongest signal, and yet, they're barely receivable. What are other people seeing from them? (If you chime in on this, tell us where you are and what antenna you're using.)

I don't think that WNBC-DT is still working on its facilities.

I did notice that WABC-DT had been - including yesterday afternoon.

In Manhattan, still having problems with a very, very weak signal for WPIX-DT.

It can drive you crazy when you consider that 2,4,7,9,11 and 13 are all coming from the same non-directional antenna on the ESB.

Note: The above does not take into account the directional, below the mast, fill-in for Brooklyn and Queens.

Hey Guys/Gals,
New user here from Elmhurst Queens (11373).I have Samsung 46 inch 1080p LCD HDTV.I currently use a cheap little set of rabbit ears which picks up the only two digital channels that are live (5-1 fox and 5-2 wwor) very well but has very poor/static filled picture for regular broadcast channels.Cable/Satellite is not an option and I'm planning on picking up a DVDR soon so could anyone recommend a good set of rabbits ears for me? I can provide more informaton if its needed to determine a good set for my setup.

Thanks in advance

Try the Silver Sensor - but get it from a place where you can return it if it doesn't do the job for you.

I live in in Northern NJ (07621) about 12 miles from the ESB. I have a Winegard 7694p in my attic. I pick up dtv 4,5,7, perfectly but have some problems getting 2, 9 and 11 reliably. I have a 4 way splitter and 75 ft of RG6 going to my television so I ordered a Winegard HDP-269 preamp which I hope will let me get all the dtv channels reliably. Of course, I do not expect to get Channel 13 until February (b\c they are broadcasting in low power).

Any other ideas as to how improve reception? I pick up analog 2-13 perfectly so I am hoping that when all the stations are broadcasting DTV in full-blast on their permanent channels that I will receive everything perfectly.

Hi everyone, I just picked up a Samsung DTB-H260 Digital Tuner and I'm now trying to figure out what antenna to place on the roof.

I live in a 3-story brownstone in Queens, New York (11385) on the first floor.
I have roof access and can install an antenna up there.

I'm not sure what antenna would suit me best, don't want to go overboard.
Most of the DT channels are 5 miles away, some are 18 miles away but in another direction completely. I attached a pic of the TVFool.com results.

TVFool Results (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11385oq6.jpg)

Any suggestions?

(Also, the RG6 cable run will be about 40ft from the antenna to my Digital Tuner if that makes things more complicated)

I should not need no roof antenna since I live in the city and not outside the city.
Getting your antenna outdoors instead of indoors makes a big difference in signal quality regardless of how close or far you are from the broadcast. And as others have said, your biggest problem where you are is multi-path interference *not* signal strength. You're getting the same signal from two different directions (slightly out of phase) due to the signal bouncing off the walls of buildings and (in the case of an indoor antenna) bouncing off the walls inside your own apartment. Multi-path will KILL digital reception even though you're close to the towers.

Two things you can try. Simplest one: get a variable attenuator (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=1296F). They're about 12 bucks and they work wonders inside the city to combat multi-path interference. They drop down both the main and the reflected signal by a few dB but in many cases you can drop down the reflected signal enough that it not longer interferes with the main signal. Try it. It's simple (and cheap!).

Second option: try to get a decent directional UHF/Upper VHF antenna on your roof or outside wall with line of sight view to the tower if possible. Materials cost is pretty low and it's really not that complicated overall (just make sure to properly ground the mast and the cable itself). But even with an outdoor antenna, the variable attenuator may be necessary so buying one of those first is the simplest thing to try. A lot of people assume they need *more* power when they fail to get certain channels in the city but actually the opposite may be true.

I have a DISH ViP722 in NYC and it's *great* to be able to use all three tuners, either to record 3 shows concurrently or two tape two from the sat tuners and watch live TV from the ATSC tuner.

Good luck.

-Chris

Will this constant adjusting ever end?
Welcome to the path of perpetual experimentation and upgrade! I'm considering moving outside the city just to make it difficult to get 13.1 again. :)

In addition to the variable attenuator which I rave about so often (which you can get online from places like Solid Signal for $12 and works with any antenna) to help solve multi-path problems, you also might be interested in a new technology still under development called a "Smart Antenna." A Smart Antenna is one that is designed for indoor use to attempt to make broadcast reception as stable as a satellite or cable feed without the need to constantly re-adjust your antenna gain or orientation.

A Smart Antenna communicates with a compatible ATSC tuner or Digital Converter Box and actually optimizes itself for each specific channel. Internally its phase and be adjusted and elements switched on and off, gain raised or lowered based on feedback that it receives from the tuner. When you go through the initial channel scan process, the antenna tweaks its reception for each channel and remembers these internal settings when you switch channels later. These are not really available yet and probably won't be that cheap (upwards of $50), but the tech seems promising.

I covered one manufacturers annoucement about this from CEDIA Expo last week:

HDTV Antennas Get Smart Courtesy of Antennas Direct (http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/HDTV_Antennas_Get_Smart_Courtesy_of_Antennas_Direct.shtml)

Worth looking into. Only drawback is for it to work your tuner must be Smart Antenna-enabled. The RCA DTA800 CECB is Smart Antenna ready, but your Zenith is not. And I haven't seen a single TV manufacturer announce support for this yet either (though they're all seemingly jumping on the Tru2way cable bandwagon).

Hope that helps...

-CB

Antennas Direct's claims of consistent gain throughout the entire DTV spectrum don't seem to be accurate, but designing an antenna to include 2-6 doesn't make sense. Leave Low-VHF for specialty antennas as that band adds the most size to an antenna and isn't needed for most areas.
I spoke with Richard Schneider and one of his engineers at length at CEDIA Expo last week and I don't think they would claim that their antennas offer "consistent gain" across the Upper VHF and UHF spectrum. They know it's all about compromise and design accordingly. Based on the stats they were showing, around 75% of the HDTV and digital channels available now (or planned) are on UHF bands, 23% are on Upper VHF and 2% are on low VHF. So most of their modern compact antenna designs work best on UHF and work pretty well on Upper VHF, but really aren't suited for Low VHF use. Of course, some of these two percent (low VHF digital channels) which are in use or slated for use after 2/09 are in sizable markets but, as you said, it's not really possible to make one compact antenna that does all three bands well.

Better to get a UHF/Upper VHF antenna for most channels, and if you really need low VHF, add a dedicated VHF antenna for that along with a diplexer.

-CB

Sorry for the delay, Boylan; I was on vacation. I have a Phillips MANT-410 amplified antenna. The window in the TV room faces North. However, that didn't matter until a few weeks ago. I was often getting pretty good reception with the antenna sitting on a chair next to the TV. Occasionally putting it in the window might help a bit, but not much.If you can get on the roof, do it! It's not so much about getting the antenna higher (which is always good), but getting it outside where the external and internal walls of your building won't interfere causing additional multi-path problems.

You don't have to spend much for a UHF antenna that would work well from your location, facing south toward the ESB. And you can get a small virtually flat coax cable extender (female on both ends, about 10"-12" long) so you can get the antenna cable into your window without drilling a hole through the exterior wall. It actually fits between most windows and jambs and still allows you to close and lock the window.

To mount the antenna mast on the roof (with a brick wall), you'll probably need a masonry bit and masonry screws (unless you can piggyback on an existing mast on your roof but leave at least 5 linear feet between antennas if you do). I've seen a few rooftop antennas that are just sitting up there completely disconnected (poor things!), from when the user went for cable or satellite and was too lazy to take it down. Scope it out up there and see what you have. There are also tripod mounts that can work pretty well.

It's also important to ground the mast and cable. In NYC, this is typically done by connecting the mast to one of the building's metal vent pipes via 14-gauge (or thicker) solid core grounding wire. These pipes are *supposed* to be grounded to power ground in the basement. If you can get access to a known power line ground or directly to an earth ground, then this is preferable.

Otherwise, if you don't want to mess with roof mounting, then I would say try and get the antenna to a south-facing window if you can and experiment with a variable attenuator in the antenna line (with the Philips set to its lowest gain setting). A lot of people have luck with the silver sensor, but you could try some experimentation with placement of the current antenna and use of an attenuator. Frankly, I find the powered antennas to be pretty useless in the city for digital reception. They don't help with multi-path at all. In fact they probably hurt.

-CB

But what's the story with WNBC-DT? Are they still working on their transmitting antenna? According to TVfool.com, they should be my third strongest signal, and yet, they're barely receivable. What are other people seeing from them? (If you chime in on this, tell us where you are and what antenna you're using.)

I live in another direction (Sussex) and they are the strongest NYC/ESB station for me.

Hey Guys/Gals,
New user here from Elmhurst Queens (11373).I have Samsung 46 inch 1080p LCD HDTV.I currently use a cheap little set of rabbit ears which picks up the only two digital channels that are live (5-1 fox and 5-2 wwor) very well but has very poor/static filled picture for regular broadcast channels.Cable/Satellite is not an option and I'm planning on picking up a DVDR soon so could anyone recommend a good set of rabbits ears for me? I can provide more informaton if its needed to determine a good set for my setup.

Thanks in advance

Try the Silver Sensor - but get it from a place where you can return it if it doesn't do the job for you.

Thanks I will look into that.Anyone else with suggestions? Also I do not have roof access so any antenna I get needs to be an indoor antenna.

Nevermind guys after using my tv auto programming I have all OTA channels as DTV now...I'm pretty happy because they all clear and this will make getting a dvdr a definite now!

Hi everyone, I just picked up a Samsung DTB-H260 Digital Tuner and I'm now trying to figure out what antenna to place on the roof.

I live in a 3-story brownstone in Queens, New York (11385) on the first floor.
I have roof access and can install an antenna up there.

...
Any suggestions?

(Also, the RG6 cable run will be about 40ft from the antenna to my Digital Tuner if that makes things more complicated)

I use a Clearstream 2 from Antennas Direct on my 3-story roof in Astoria, 2-3 miles away. Excellent results on all channels. I think it's $80 at Target (online only), $60 from Solid Signal. Optimized for UHF but it should work for Upper VHF as well once they switch over. I've got a Terrestrial Digital (which is also Antennas Direct) 42XG up there too (for a different system) and it's fine too but the Clearstream looks cooler. :cool:

Later,

-Chris

Anyone have any idea which local stations are currently broadcasting at the same "full" power which they will be broadcasting in after Feb 09??? I am trying to figure out if the reception I can get in my house now is the same as I will get in February?

(I know about Channel 13 not being full power so I am looking to find out about the others)

Thanks

I live in another direction (Sussex) and they are the strongest NYC/ESB station for me.

Same here in Somerset NJ. NBC became very strong just before olympics. It was the weakest before that. Now CBS is the weakest link for me. But I still get it fine without any problem using a 3rd gen tuner (Hisense DB-2010) paired with the cheapo Eagle/Aspen DTV2UHF (DB2 clone) antenna mounted on a floor standing walmart lamp indoor facing walls and a whole lot of trees.

how are you guys able to tell when a signal is strong/weak?

Most TV tuners have a "signal strength" meter function that will register the relative
strength of each Over-the-Air channel that you receive.

There's a whole discussion that what is being read is not truly signal strength, but that's a separate discussion. As least what you can read is how one station is being received vs. another.

Most TV tuners have a "signal strength" meter function that will register the relative
strength of each Over-the-Air channel that you receive.

There's a whole discussion that what is being read is not truly signal strength, but that's a separate discussion. As least what you can read is how one station is being received vs. another.


I have an option on my tv to view the signal strength of the channel I'm viewing,but it doesn't stay on my screen at all times,only when I have that option from the menu displayed...is that what you are referring to?

I guess it depends on your set.

But if it's giving you a read out of signal strenth, that's it!

G
But what's the story with WNBC-DT? Are they still working on their transmitting antenna? According to TVfool.com, they should be my third strongest signal, and yet, they're barely receivable. What are other people seeing from them? (If you chime in on this, tell us where you are and what antenna you're using.)

I'm located here in central NJ-north Mercer County and i've been receiving WNBC-DT fairly reliably since August (when the olympics coverage started). Just prior to that WCBS, WNYW, & WABC virtually disappeared. WNYW(Fox5) is apparently tailoring the radiation pattern of their transmission to avoid interferences with WNJT-DT-52.1-4 transmitting from Trenton on UHF-43 & another UHF station - channel-44 in Atlantic City. I'm assuming the loss of ABC & CBS are (hopefully) just temporary due to the transmitter work at the ESB.
My antenna is a 30+ year old 10ft yagi with a CM3041 Spartan3 UHF mast amplifier. Prior to the combiner work at the ESB in July I received all the NYC stations except WNET, WNBC, and more recently WNYW quite reliably. Reception on channels 9 & 11 is generally still pretty stable and reliable.
I agree with several previous posters on this thread about the frustrating lack of public information on this transmitter work. For a major market like NY, and for local stations that pride themselves on their news departments and coverage, this dearth of information about the very channels they use to reach their viewers is a bit ironic.

Most TV tuners have a "signal strength" meter function that will register the relative
strength of each Over-the-Air channel that you receive.

There's a whole discussion that what is being read is not truly signal strength, but that's a separate discussion. As least what you can read is how one station is being received vs. another.

I have a pinnacle USB TV stick that has two meters on the OSD - one says signal strength, one says signal quality.

Could just be a gimmick, but putting it out there FWIW.

I'm located here in central NJ-north Mercer County and i've been receiving WNBC-DT fairly reliably since August (when the olympics coverage started). Just prior to that WCBS, WNYW, & WABC virtually disappeared. WNYW(Fox5) is apparently tailoring the radiation pattern of their transmission to avoid interferences with WNJT-DT-52.1-4 transmitting from Trenton on UHF-43 & another UHF station - channel-44 in Atlantic City.


Well it looks like they killed that fly with a sledge hammer because they are very low here in the Northwest (Sussex). I cannot get a lock reliably, only very occasionally. Probably when all the leaves fall off I might get a somewhat usable signal.

Hey all,

I havent used the ATSC tuner on my LN-S3241D(Samsung 32Inch) for a long time. Anyhow, I hooked it up today and I cannot even receive NBC-DT. What is going on? Did NBC digital signal go offline? I was able to before receive it and now I only get analog which is very "rainy". Also does anyone know what happened to the english music channel that used to be on 11.2 or 3? It isn't there anymore; I think it used to be called Tube or something..
Lastly, Fox is the only channel I receive the best but there is here and there some static. The best channel I receive is 21 so I guess you guys can tell which way I am facing from the ESB(14.1 Miles away).

If the best channel you can receive is 21, you might be facing the wrong way as 21 is a Long Island station. Might want to try reorienting your antenna.

As for The Tube, that went bankrupt a couple years ago. I believe there's Spanish programming now to replace it.

jayans04, what antenna are you using?

Using Silver Sensor.

My antenna is facing towards Manhattan. Channel 5 is the best reception followed by CBS then ABC, NBC is not picked up what so ever except analog. Wth is going on? Is their signal not strong enough?

If you're using an indoor antenna, don't expect too much of a spectacular result, especially if you're more than 10 miles from the transmitter.

NBC is actually the strongest where I am, but I am on the other side of Manhattan, way up north west.

Anyone else having trouble with this channel? Channel 11 isn't so great either.

Anyone else having trouble with this channel? Channel 11 isn't so great either.

I've had some more frequent dropouts on DT56 (2-1) but I thought it was just weather.

I've had some more frequent dropouts on DT56 (2-1) but I thought it was just weather.
The lack of a consistent signal for Digital TV is very frustrating - especially when I get perfect reception on analog for all the channels

A good antenna can make a day and night difference. I am getting 2.1 reliably with this antenna.
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8229/assateague2025it7.th.jpg (http://img364.imageshack.us/my.php?image=assateague2025it7.jpg)
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6711/assateague2023vy7.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=assateague2023vy7.jpg)
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8236/1003209hm5.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003209hm5.jpg)

This is with Hisense DB2010, which is known to be a weak 3rd gen tuner. If you see the signal strength, it's not 100%. All my other NY channels are 100%. CBS is the weakest. On a good day, it reaches 1 bar less from the max. My antena setup is a Eagle/Aspen DB2 clone from amazon with a 25ft run of RG-6 (without any splitter) and without any preamp. Previously I had the Terk HDTVa which was good too.. but this is considerably better.

A few of the transmitters went out during the middle of the night for about 4 hours. The transmitters came on about five minutes ago and for the first time in about 7 weeks, all of the stations that I was receiving before are now being received again. Thanks ESB staff.

Well, here in the East 60s in Manhattan, 4 has almost disappeared, it had been one of my strongest and most stabile signals.

7 is lower, 9 is a bit higher and thankfully 11 is now watchable.

I hope they're still working to fix things.

If not, losing 4 for 11 isn't a deal I would have made!

I am now receiving digital 2-13 perfectly!!!!! [Yes - not a typo, I am even receiving DTV 13 for the first time)

What did they do over at ESB????

I am now receiving digital 2-13 perfectly!!!!! [Yes - not a typo, I am even receiving DTV 13 for the first time)

What did they do over at ESB????

By 13, do you mean PBS 13 (WNET-DT)? Yes I too noticed that NBC, FOX went blank in the middle of the night just like that from 100% reception. I figured that they might be doing some maintenance, but was surprised that they go out of the air without giving any advance notice. I will rescan today to see whether I can get 13 again. Sometime back I heard a rumour that even 21-x (WLIW) will be broadcasted from ESB to serve NJ viewers. It will be really good, if they do that.

Yes - by 13 I meant WNET-DT. I was previously unable to even get a weak signal on it and now I pick it up perfectly (although it is still weaker than channels 2-11). I am curious what exactly they did over at ESB last night as 2 and 11 (previously unstable and weak) are also coming in at 100% now.

Hey jpru34! (or anybody else who can check it now)

Is WNET-DT still at UHF 61? I would be surprised if they upgraded that signal while still at the same frequency.

I can confirm some of the previous good news. At about 12:40am last night 2,4,7,9 and 11 went dark. 5 was still broadcasting with their usual strong signal. About an hour or so later 7 came back on and was a now a near match for 5's signal level. This morning about 9:15am I checked and found all the major locals, except 5, had increased signal levels.

Snellkrell: I see your post was at 5:40am, so I'd guess 4 wasn't fully restored. How are you doing now?

kousikb: It's 58, WNJB, that will be moving to 4 Times Square that I think you're referring to. That will be a nice addition for many of us, though I'm pretty sure they won't be able to begin until 2/18/09 because they will be using channel 8's frequency which would interfere with channel 7 analog. If there are other rumors for 21 moving to the ESB I'm in favor of it and want to hear more!

jpru34: Where are you located? I'm 50 miles north and still no sign of 13 and honestly I'm not expecting it, but it would be helpful to know what your distance from the ESB is.

TSS_Killer: You win the prize for bearer of good news.

kousikb: It's 58, WNJB, that will be moving to 4 Times Square that I think you're referring to. That will be a nice addition for many of us, though I'm pretty sure they won't be able to begin until 2/18/09 because they will be using channel 8's frequency which would interfere with channel 7 analog. If there are other rumors for 21 moving to the ESB I'm in favor of it and want to hear more!

That probably came from me. I only suggest it because WLIW is spending the money to revert from 22 to 21, and the only reason I could see to spend all that money is to boost power and move in. Since they're co-owned with WNET, it seems like it would make sense to me from a technical stand-point. (22 would be limited by WNJS-DT in Camden, same transmitter site as WMCN-DT which limits Fox 5's digital)

But there are political forces that might make a potential WLIW move difficult, from what I've been told.

- Trip

WNET-DT is still at UHF 61 - I am located approx 11.9 miles from the ESB.

I should add that I recently purchased a Winegard HDP-269 preamp which has significantly helped me out with my signals being that I need to split them.

Interesting point.

The takeover was not universally smiled upon.

Those living on Long Island were rightfully suspicious that their local indentity would be subjugated.

All of that has been taken care of by way of programming and emphasing the Long Island identity.

If a transmission facility were to be moved to the ESB, in my opinion, as long as the signal didn't disipate reception on Long Island, no one should care.

In my opinion, a tower's location should not, at least logically, make that much difference.

My big question is, with the move of WNJB-DT to Times Square, is where does WNJN-DT fit into all this? It doesn't make sense to me to have two signals with such huge areas of overlap.

Does NJN sell WNJN-DT? (A bad move, I'd say, given some of the areas that are shadowed from NYC)

Does NJN move the transmitter west, maybe to where WMBC analog is? That'd give them a big signal out there. Heck, they could do a swap with WMBC, move the WMBC license to Montclair and the WNJN license to Newton, then build 51 out there. That'd get it past the FCC.

Or do they leave it where it is, given the current money problems at NJN?

- Trip

I figured that they might be doing some maintenance, but was surprised that they go out of the air without giving any advance notice.

Actually, the Dish Network EPG reported that 2,4,5, and 7 were Off Air from 12:35 to 5am (even though the satellite transmission was never interrupted).

I can confirm some of the previous good news. At about 12:40am last night 2,4,7,9 and 11 went dark. 5 was still broadcasting with their usual strong signal. About an hour or so later 7 came back on and was a now a near match for 5's signal level. This morning about 9:15am I checked and found all the major locals, except 5, had increased signal levels.

Snellkrell: I see your post was at 5:40am, so I'd guess 4 wasn't fully restored. How are you doing now?

kousikb: It's 58, WNJB, that will be moving to 4 Times Square that I think you're referring to. That will be a nice addition for many of us, though I'm pretty sure they won't be able to begin until 2/18/09 because they will be using channel 8's frequency which would interfere with channel 7 analog. If there are other rumors for 21 moving to the ESB I'm in favor of it and want to hear more!

jpru34: Where are you located? I'm 50 miles north and still no sign of 13 and honestly I'm not expecting it, but it would be helpful to know what your distance from the ESB is.

TSS_Killer: You win the prize for bearer of good news.

SnellKrell here. Currently at work. Will report back when I get home this evening. Hope Channel 28 is back!!!

WNET-DT at 95 -- same as all of the other ESB transmitters -- down here at the Jersey shore, 37 miles due south. Yippee!

Well, I'm home and I'm happy for those of you that are now getting reception.

But, I'm not a happy camper!!!!!

Channel 28 (WNBC-DT) has disappeared - it used to be possibly my strongest and most consistent channel. No more!!!!!

On my set, 7 is stronger than it was, and so is 11 (although weaker than most).

Ugh!

I don't know where you live but reception right now it terrible. I can at best get a yellow signal on channel 4. 7, 9 and 11 I can barely get it keeps dropping out and 13 of course I always get nothing.

This is why I don't have my 612 DVR hooked up over the air. I don't trust recording anything OTA. Plus the DVR has a real sensitive tuner. If I get just one pixel it goes right to a annoying error screen.

I live in the East 60s, near 2nd Avenue in Manhattan.

Strange to hear that you have trouble in Brooklyn.

"Yellow signal" means nothing to me - but doesn't sound as if it's strong!

The changes made a number of weeks ago had a fill-in panel mounted on the S.E. corner of the ESB specifically to help with reception in Brooklyn and Queens.

Yesterday I got 4, 7, 9 and 11 green. Now I can barely get them. They keep pixelating.

That waste 29 is strong now. So new york stations keep pixleating yet a stupid :mad:"Lord thou God" crap:mad: I can get the strongest. It just really peaves me off because it is 480i religious crap no HD and it is the furthest away. I know all about multipathing so sorry to rant again.

I live in the East 60s, near 2nd Avenue in Manhattan.

Strange to hear that you have trouble in Brooklyn.

"Yellow signal" means nothing to me - but doesn't sound as if it's strong!

The changes made a number of weeks ago had a fill-in panel mounted on the S.E. corner of the ESB specifically to help with reception in Brooklyn and Queens.

Maybe the fill-in panel broke because today the reception is terrible. Channel 5 is the same yellow signal, if I move the antenna out of the closet I can get it 4 green bars but the other NY stations like 4, 7, 9 and 11 which use to be the strongest all I can get is a pixeled mess to a black screen with zero to one red bars no matter where I move the Enterprise antenna.

WNYW-DT (5) has its own transmitting antenna on the mast of the ESB.

What has recently been done, and the fill-in array, they only concern
2, 4, 7, 9, 11 and 13 - the stations part of the Combiner project.

When I see that big antenna on the ESB I use to think that it was just one big antenna. Did not know it had things like mast and fill-in arrays.

So the reason for improved (or reduced - depending on location) reception is b\c they installed a new combiner antenna?

The new Combiner antenna was installed the first week of August.

What has been done in the last few days, I believe, are some sort of adjustments.

But not much. 5 is still the strongest, but I am at least receiving some signal on all channels up through 11. The weakest being 7 which is unwatchable at this point. Before August, 7 was the strongest and most dependable signal by far. This is the first time I've ever received 11. Still no 13.

It would be helpful if posters who don't have their location in their profile, list their location in their posts.

Checked yesterday.. for me most of the signals improved. 2.x is up at 97% from 70%. 4.x, 5.x, 7.x, 9.x, 11.x, 25.x and 31.x are now all coming with 100%. I am still not able to get WNET-DT. I haven't tried with my TVs inbuilt tuner or the Zenith CECB. May be it'd come with the Zenith (but I hate that Zenith because of the audio issue).

Well, I'm home and I'm happy for those of you that are now getting reception.

But, I'm not a happy camper!!!!!

Channel 28 (WNBC-DT) has disappeared - it used to be possibly my strongest and most consistent channel. No more!!!!!

On my set, 7 is stronger than it was, and so is 11 (although weaker than most).

Ugh!

Tricky business. No doubt the multipath signals have increased with the overall signal increases. I'm sure you will beat it and it should help others living in the city to know what worked best for you.

Last night all signals, 2 through 11, were strong in Putnam County with 2 being a little weaker than the rest. 13 is still too weak to receive here.

1) Does anyone know if there is really any benefit to terminating unused coaxial jacks on a splitter?

2) Also, I am convinced that the strength meter on my converter box is worthless as it indicates I only have 35% reception on WNET-DT but I have absolutely zero dropouts and perfect reception - yet, last week, I had 60-70% strength on some of my stations (e.g. Channel 2-DT) and frequent dropouts? Can anyone explain?

1) Does anyone know if there is really any benefit to terminating unused coaxial jacks on a splitter?

2) Also, I am convinced that the strength meter on my converter box is worthless as it indicates I only have 35% reception on WNET-DT but I have absolutely zero dropouts and perfect reception - yet, last week, I had 60-70% strength on some of my stations (e.g. Channel 2-DT) and frequent dropouts? Can anyone explain?

1 - See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html, and note the two entries - one for Splitters and one for Terminators. I would think it would be best do replace a splitter that has unused connections with a smaller splitter.

2 - Signal strength is not the same as signal quality. You can have a strong signal but still get clobbered by multipath.

Check out the rest of that hdtvprimer site. There's some great tips in there!

1 - See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html, and note the two entries - one for Splitters and one for Terminators. I would think it would be best do replace a splitter that has unused connections with a smaller splitter.

2 - Signal strength is not the same as signal quality. You can have a strong signal but still get clobbered by multipath.

Check out the rest of that hdtvprimer site. There's some great tips in there!

If you have a splitter with some unused ports, install terminating resisters in those unused ports. That way if you need a larger splitter at some point you don't have to buy a new one. Also remember that any splitter will add 2 DB of loss to the signal. Just bought an HD television and the only station I have trouble with is WNET. Their analog signal is fine but the HD signal is very weak. I'm sure when the leaves disappear the signals will improve. Interestingly, channel 68 analog is very noisy here but they have a excellent HD signal. May be time to replace my vhf/uhf antenna with the deep fringe UHF only antenna I used to have up.

FWIW, I'm also getting WNET for the first time. I'm in Riverdale, ~15 miles north of the ESB. It's a strong, clear signal -- 100% quality and 85% strength. Previously it didn't even register on the meter. I'm so psyched to get that PBS station -- I get NJN but in my opinion it's not nearly as good content-wise.

what is with channel 13-01 - 05, i'm only 14 miles from NYC and can not get them but can get 50-01 - 05 and they are NJ station almost twice the distance. 31 is a strong lock but 21 comes and goes and 47 but can lock 41. During rain days the planes fly over my house for JFK and screw with reception.

1) Does anyone know if there is really any benefit to terminating unused coaxial jacks on a splitter?

Absolutely.

The terminators prevent the signal from reflecting back and being radiated out the antenna (wasted).

Not a really good pic, but this is what I'm using (the tower isn't tilted, it's just the camera):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/2868765771_fd67e6153b.jpg

Close up:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2869589614_044ce37f7e.jpg

The main (ham radio) antenna is off the tower for maintenance, and going back up next week.

The TV antenna is a CM4228.

The 4228 is at 70 or so feet AGL. We are approximately 800ft ASL and 48.5 miles from the ESB in NYC.

I was so hoping to get Wnet, but nothing doing. Whatever it is they did way up there, it hasn't helped me in South Bklyn. I'm a bit over 10 miles south of the ESB.

Current situation: no reception at all on 2 (always has been weak) or 7 (once my strongest signal) or 31 (used to be quite good).

4 & 5 coming in clearly (no interference/ clear pic & sound. just touching the "good reception area" on my signal bar) this is about where 5.1 & 5.2 have been in the recent past. 4 used to be fine, became superb, then got spotty and lately disappeared. Now it's back, though not quite superb. That's the total for the good news.

9, 11, 25, 45 show in mid-portion of signal bar -- where I have had perfect pic & sound most of the time in the past. Tonight, the actual reception is interrupted: slow slurred sound, pic freezes. not watchable. In the recent past all (except 9) were fine; 9 didn't always lock, but when it did, it was fine.

68 & 29 show up in same portion of signal bar as 9,11 etc, but with no sound & only occasional flashes of the pic, which then freezes & disapears again.

45 & 68 always used to be among the strongest signals -- had me wondering if I should take up Spanish. :)

29 isn't my cup of tea. Reception was & remains spotty.

Clearly the signal wavers when a train passes over 1 portion of the track. fwiw the spot that causes the problem is South of me & ESB is North. I'm guessing that the reflection from that angle (or waves of electricity traveling through the air from that spot) collide with the TV signals.

Other than that, I don't know that multipath is my issue? with all the talk re attenuating the signal to cut the multipath interference to where it won't interfere with the real signal, when I have a strong signal on a channel & actual reception is perfect, the UFO (active antenna) is always set at the highest level - 3. When I lower it to 2, signal immediately worsens or disappears on every channel. Level 1 almost never shows a signal or brings anything in. Doesn't seem reasonable for me to assume attenuating the signal to lower yet would help me.

Just an FYI for those who may have missed last week's reruns of the first 2 episodes of season 2....I forgot to post about it- My D* guide didn't show them with an HD logo so I wasn't sure if they'd be in HD...but they were. Sunday at 12:05 and 1:05 AM IIRC. Just hope no work is being done overnight on the antenna Saturday into Sunday!

Same schedule for this weekend for episodes 3 and 4...not sure how long it will run, but if you're a fan it's really cool to see these in HD once again....

Not a really good pic, but this is what I'm using (the tower isn't tilted, it's just the camera):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/2868765771_fd67e6153b.jpg

Close up:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2869589614_044ce37f7e.jpg

The main (ham radio) antenna is off the tower for maintenance, and going back up next week.

The TV antenna is a CM4228.

The 4228 is at 70 or so feet AGL. We are approximately 800ft ASL and 48.5 miles from the ESB in NYC.
That is awesome - Did you put up that tower yourself? If so, how did you do it?

That is awesome - Did you put up that tower yourself? If so, how did you do it?

The tower is from a company called AN Wireless.

The foundation was done by a contractor, but AN Wireless supplies full spec and plans for the foundation. That is the most critical part.

The actual erection was done with a crane.

It's not cheap, and I had to get local permits and educate (argue with) the local zoning board to get the permits, citing both local zoning laws excluding ham towers from the special use permits for commercial facilities, as well as the FCC's PRB-1.

As I said, the tower is for ham use, but since it's up there, I figured why not put a TV antenna or two.

At 70 feet it clears the trees in the NYC direction. The top of the mast is at 86 feet, with a dualbander at the top. I can talk on VHF/UHF repeaters as far away as Danbury, CT (~70 miles).

Reception is still crummy as it was yesterday. Before Wednesday it was good but now it is just bad. 4 and 5 has a yellow signal. 7 has a yellow signal but keeps breaking up. 9 and 11 is just 1 or 2 red bars. 13 of course I get nothing. Come on this is stupid. I only live about 5 miles from the ESB yet I see people here from NJ able to get better reception. If improving reception causes more multipath then I don't see this as progress. If multipath is such a problem maybe they should have just left the analog the way it was. Yes analog is not as clear but when I tune to those same stations at least I have a picture and sound and I am not staring at a black screen with a one to two bar signal meter.

I know what you are saying BrooklynGal. It seems that they may have improved reception for people living in New Jersey but they made the reception go down the crapper for people who live in Brooklyn.

Thank goodness I get most of my HD local stations on Dish Network. All except 9 and 13. If I did not have satellite TV and just relied on OTA reception I would be really peeved. By now my antenna would have been smatched up into a million peaces by a hammer over shear frustration trying to watch my prime time shows.

I know what you are saying BrooklynGal. It seems that they may have improved reception for people living in New Jersey but they made the reception go down the crapper for people who live in Brooklyn.

I still can't get 5.1.

With analog my uncle is able to pick up the NYC stations OTA with a roof antenna all the way from is house in Eastern Pennsylvania which is about 80 or more miles away. With digital and its all or nothing it really is nothing even when you only live a few miles away from the ESB.

I said it once and I will say it again. NYC OTA digital reception is pathetic at best. I feel sorry for all of those poor saps who rely on OTA reception. I am just tired of scanning through all the channels that I use to get fine before Wednesday but now all I get is a black screen.

I live about 20 miles from Eastern PA and I can get all of the analog channels with a high gain antenna.

The problem you face in the city are the large numbers of buildings which will give you strong multipath reflections.

Outside of the city, there isn't really that much of anything to reflect, and being far away from the transmitter the reflections just aren't that strong.

It's not the TV stations fault, just the laws of physics, and the way 8VSB is more susceptible to multipath.

Some like WNET-DT 13 have severely reduced power, partially because of the attacks of 9/11. They are barely a blip here and I have never gotten a lock on them.

Multipath was never really a problem with analog signal. Yes you did get ghosting but unlike digital at least you get a picture. Not a great one but still a picture. Digital you just get a few blocks and then nothing.

I think if 9/11 never happened then we would all be getting great digital reception. The ESB is a old building with a old antenna. All the NYC radio stations are on there and also the TV stations. It is overloaded. What about the 4 Times Square building. Don't they use that antenna for anything. It is much newer.

Multipath was never really a problem with analog signal. Yes you did get ghosting but unlike digital at least you get a picture. Not a great one but still a picture. Digital you just get a few blocks and then nothing.

I think if 9/11 never happened then we would all be getting great digital reception. The ESB is a old building with a old antenna. All the NYC radio stations are on there and also the TV stations. It is overloaded. What about the 4 Times Square building. Don't they use that antenna for anything. It is much newer.

Disagree!

First, I do not have line-of-sight to the Empire State Building and the majority of the over-the-air reception I have is by way of multipath.

I'd rather deal with digital multipath than the horrors of ghosting with analogue.

It's a pain, but I am able to find sweet spots where to place my indoor Silver Sensor antenna. Evenutally, I do find steady and strong signals.

Yes, the Empire State Building is old - it opened May 1, 1931.

The antennas for digital transmission are new and many analogue stations have relatively new equipment.

There's a good reason that the Conde Nast Building is not being used as a primary facility - it's lower than the Empire State Building. This is only an approximation - but the top of the Conde Nast mast is the height of the bottom of the Empire States'.

Here's a case where size does count!!!

Multipath was never really a problem with analog signal. Yes you did get ghosting but unlike digital at least you get a picture. Not a great one but still a picture. Digital you just get a few blocks and then nothing.

I think if 9/11 never happened then we would all be getting great digital reception. The ESB is a old building with a old antenna. All the NYC radio stations are on there and also the TV stations. It is overloaded. What about the 4 Times Square building. Don't they use that antenna for anything. It is much newer.

I believe that at least a directional indoor antenna would work better, such as the silver sensor. Outside would of course be better.

The problem is not gain. Playing the "gain game" will get you nowhere. You need directivity to null out multipath.

Maybe you also need an attenuator to reduce the overly strong signals. I have a serious problem with WMBC analog 63, because they overload my pre-amp. The CM4228 nulls them out enough so that the preamp isn't overloaded, or at least not overloaded to the point where distant stations suffer.

Those of us out here in the sticks actually do have a better chance of reception because we use outdoor antennas mounted up high. We have the space and the land.

If it's one thing I've learned over the years is that there are a lot of variables in TV reception.

I am near downtown Brooklyn. For the past few days, my reception has disappeared on 2.x, 4.x (used to be strongest, now spotty at best), 7.x, 9.x, 11.x, and 13.x (well, I have only on rare occasions received this - probably when they turned up power temporarily).

I have seen others report improved signals. It seems that, as back in early August, they have improved the main ESB antenna, but turned off (or reduced power to) the 'fill-in antenna' for Brooklyn. Does anyone know if this is true and, if so, when the fill-in antenna will be working again?

It amazes me that there is not some widespread official information about the broadcast antenna work being done. I suspect there are a lot of people checking out digital OTA reception these days and that they are getting very frustrated when the signal comes and goes. People are probably giving up or wasting time and money messing with antennas, cables, etc. when the real problem may just be the broadcast antenna.

For those who have problems receiving channel 13. This is info from their web site;

Please note: Some viewers may still have trouble receiving Thirteen DTV before February 17, 2009 – even with a dual-antenna and a converter box. This is due to the reduced-power transmitter Thirteen has been using since the destruction of the World Trade Center. If you cannot receive Thirteen DTV, you can watch the non-digital Channel Thirteen on an old-style analog television set, or by using a converter box with an analog pass-through feature, until February 17, 2009, when Thirteen will switch to a high-power DTV transmitter that will reach everyone in the viewing area.

What I tried yesterday afternoon and it worked was I hooked up my cable line going into my cable modem to my TV. Changed it to cable mode and did a scan and it found a bunch of channels. I had all of my HD local channels including the analog ones and a few HD channels like CNN. The problem is that I can't get online when it is hooked up. Is their a splitter you can get so you can hook up the cable line to your TV and your cable modem. It sure beats trying to get the pitiful reception with a antenna.

That's an easy one, and it's the solution I'm using until I can get better reception. Get a 1-in 2-out splitter with one side unity gain (0 dB loss) and the other side no more than -10dB loss. Plug the no-loss leg into your TV and plug the -10dB leg into your modem. Cable modems usually fare better with slightly attenuated signal strength, but your QAM receiver in your TV won't. That's pretty much it.

Anybody else experiencing no signal for WLIW and WEDW? On the positive note, 2,4,5,7,9 and 11 are coming in better.

4 and 5 are a bit better today. 7 is still horrible. Keeps dropping out and pixelating. 2, 9 and 11 I still only get 2 red bars. I wonder if 7, 11 and 13 will be better when they move to high VHF. Is high VHF better at combating multipathing than UHF?

...
Please note: Some viewers may still have trouble receiving Thirteen DTV before February 17, 2009 ....–

I'm not going to fret much over not picking up one or two channels until 6 months after Feb 17, 2009. We are used to a certain level of service that has been provided to our area since the 1950's. All the changes will result in alot of tweaking and tuning on both ends. What works today may not work a year from now. I expect most of the bugs to be shaken out six months after cut over day.

For those using splitters, I've had an interesting experience which might prove helpful to youo. I had been using a Radio Shack splitter and another one which claimed 3.5 DB loss per port. I replaced them with a Blonder Tongue SUV-2 and where once I could receive channel 2 with a rather weak vulnerable signal (it would pixilate at times. The signal meter was at half full or lower), It is now showing a very strong signal strength indication and channel 13 which had at its best, 1 bar on the signal strength meter and dropped out frequently, is now showing half strength on channel 13 and the signal never drops out. I have one other splitter in the system and will replace that one with a Blonder Tongue unit as well.

4 and 5 are a bit better today. 7 is still horrible. Keeps dropping out and pixelating. 2, 9 and 11 I still only get 2 red bars. I wonder if 7, 11 and 13 will be better when they move to high VHF. Is high VHF better at combating multipathing than UHF?

As many have pointed out, your problem really may be multipath. I am also located in a area with lot of buildings (although lowrise - 2 storied apartments) and trees. Yes, I am in a second floor apartment, which helps me a little bit, but I have seen that in my situation rabbit ears and traditional UHF loop antenna really doesn't cut it. I am getting excellent and reliable reception for the last 1.5 yr from NY OTA first using Terk HDTVa (zenith silver sensor clone with preamp, when I was 25 miles from NY) and now with a DB2 clone (33 miles from NY) without preamp (both indoor). I get all the NY channels without any breakup and hiccups. Of course I don't get WNET-DT and for WMBC and I have to rotate the antenna a little bit. But all the other stations 2,4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 25, 31, 41, 47, 50, 58, 63, 68 come with the antenna pointed towards ESB. Yes I have experimented a lot with the position and found an optimum position. But I feel lot of problems with multipath can be solved using a good antenna. I recommend using DB4/CM4221 for indoor or if it's too big for you than DB2/Eagle Aspen is also quite good. Both these antenna can be bought in within the price range of $25-$40 and can easily be returned to amazon if they don't work. To prove that multipath also haunts me, here is one incident: I built the youtube 4-bay bowtie coat hanger antenna (basically CM4221 clone without the reflector). Although the results were better than a traditional UHF loop antenna, there were lot of dropouts whenever somebody walked inside the room or if there were strong winds passing by. Also it was not reliable enough and I could see the multipath in action by looking at the signal meter (signal strength fluctuate like hell). This is the reason I decided to pay up for the Eagle Aspen DB2 clone with the reflector (although I spent quite a lot of money buidling the coat hanger antenna and can build quite a lot of antenna with the raw material I have). Terk HDTVi/HDTVa or Zenith Silver Sensor are good too, but they are too much directional for my taste. I got frustrated because of their directional sensitivity.

Has there been any press about the FCC DTV Road Show coming to New York on Saturday?

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284629A1.pdf

Here is a report from the San Francisco stop:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14701132#post14701132

4 and 5 are a bit better today. 7 is still horrible. Keeps dropping out and pixelating. 2, 9 and 11 I still only get 2 red bars. I wonder if 7, 11 and 13 will be better when they move to high VHF. Is high VHF better at combating multipathing than UHF?

I expect the answer is yes and no. As I understand it, VHF does not reflect as easily as UHF. However, it is hard to get indoor antennas that are directional, which means that it is harder to correct for multi-path that does exist. Also, VHF signal strengths are likely to be weaker w/o line of sight to the towers (since they don't reflect as well). In the city tests I have done UHF has fared much better than VHF on the analog side, but I haven't had the chance to test urban VHF DTV reception yet. Of course, most big cities don't have much room in 7-13 while analog remains.

It's going to be interesting to see how the top ABC 7's perform across the country in urban settings (e.g., NYC, LA, & Chicago).

I expect the answer is yes and no. As I understand it, VHF does not reflect as easily as UHF. However, it is hard to get indoor antennas that are directional, which means that it is harder to correct for multi-path that does exist. Also, VHF signal strengths are likely to be weaker w/o line of sight to the towers (since they don't reflect as well). In the city tests I have done UHF has fared much better than VHF on the analog side, but I haven't had the chance to test urban VHF DTV reception yet. Of course, most big cities don't have much room in 7-13 while analog remains.

It's going to be interesting to see how the top ABC 7's perform across the country in urban settings (e.g., NYC, LA, & Chicago).


Falcon -

I live in mid-town Manhattan, just filled with multipath.

Am using a Silver Sensor indoor antenna - highly, highly directional -
just the slightest realignment changes reception tremendously.

With the Silver Sensor, can pick up analogue channels 7, 9, 11 and 13 -
expect and hope that when 7, 11 and 13 go digital VHF, I'll be in good shape.

But one never knows!

I have really bad reception of WNBC 4.1, no matter where I point the antenna to. Other channels are not great but ok. It seems to be better if I stands right next to the antenna.

It used to be good. It changed after I got a replacement TV last month, though I don't want WNBC other than football. Is this a problem of the TV? Anyone else has the same problem?

Thanks!

I'm sure it's not your TV.

Work was recently done on the Combiner antenna on the Empire State Building, and while many have seen improvements to their reception, I, as others, have experienced
problems. Mine have been specifically with 4 and 11.

I use an indoor antenna, and for many years had been fine using the "sweet spot" location that gave me more than adequate reception for 2,4,5,7,9 and 11. 13 was always a "no go" for me.

After the mentioned work on the ESB, it took me about a half-hour to find a new place.

Big, big comprimise!!!

Strongest reception I've ever had for 2,7,9 and 13.

Barely decent reception for 4 and 5 - 11 is finally where it had been.

God only knows what I'll get come 2/18/09!

Be patient - some digital reception can drive you crazy!

Ever since I got an HDTV last year, the signal has been great for all the main channels: 2 4 5 7 9 11 13. Around Friday or so, channels 5, 9 & 11 suddenly stopped appearing altogether -even if I manually input those channels. The rest still work perfectly. Could this be something wonky with signal source, signal reception, or my tv? Both those channels went from perfect to GONE overnight. Luckily the Giants game was on CBS Sunday!

Another thing I noticed is that before when I manually typed in 1-4 for NBC I got a different channel. Since Friday though, that quirk has disappeared as well.

Hoping to have those channels back!

Am using a Silver Sensor indoor antenna - highly, highly directional -
just the slightest realignment changes reception tremendously.


Which tuner are you using? Is it the DirecTV AM21?

I've pulled DTV signals from multi-path so bad as to be unwatchable (at least on nearby analog channels), but am wondering how well the AM21 performs. I used an On-Air GT in such tests.

Falcon -

I have my AM21 and the tuner in my 2-year old Sharp LCD connected to a 2-way splitter, fed by a Silver Sensor indoor antenna.


The Sharp's tuner puts the AM21 away!

I was really surprised, I had expected that the AM21 being newer would have a more sensitive chip - it doesn't!!!!

Channel 4.1 has a really awful signal quality tonight. Looks like I'll have to record Heroes on Saturday.

For the first time, I am getting "viewable" reception on all the major networks (2-11). 13 is the only major channel I am not receiving. Channel surfed for about 15 minutes and dropouts were minimal or non-existent.

I'm not going to fret much over not picking up one or two channels until 6 months after Feb 17, 2009. We are used to a certain level of service that has been provided to our area since the 1950's. All the changes will result in alot of tweaking and tuning on both ends. What works today may not work a year from now. I expect most of the bugs to be shaken out six months after cut over day.

And the real transition will actually be when the freedom tower is built.

Has NJN abandoned HD?

Tuning to WNJN-DT on 50-5 shows only a blank channel.

On WNJB-DT there is no NJN HD subchannel. The other subs are there.

I guess I'll have to go back to watching WNET on cable for my PBS HD fix.

I hear that NJN is changing their layout to 50-1 HD (when available) and 50-2 SD sometime in the next few months, so this is probably leading up to it.

- Trip

Channel 4.1 has a really awful signal quality tonight. Looks like I'll have to record Heroes on Saturday.

4-1 is the same for me as always. Strongest of all the NYC channels.

Ever since I got an HDTV last year, the signal has been great for all the main channels: 2 4 5 7 9 11 13. Around Friday or so, channels 5, 9 & 11 suddenly stopped appearing altogether -even if I manually input those channels. The rest still work perfectly. Could this be something wonky with signal source, signal reception, or my tv? Both those channels went from perfect to GONE overnight. Luckily the Giants game was on CBS Sunday!

Could be. I had some issues with 9 and 11 over the weekend as well.

5 came in briefly a couple nights ago as well. Signal is there, but a lock is elusive. Even WNET-DT shows up with some signal strength. Still waiting to go up the tower to stack/phase my 2nd CM4228, to see if I can pull them in.

Another thing I noticed is that before when I manually typed in 1-4 for NBC I got a different channel. Since Friday though, that quirk has disappeared as well.

Hoping to have those channels back!

Pressing 1-4 would get you channel 14 or maybe 4 analog or something else entirely. You need to press channel - sub, so it would be 4-1, not 1-4.

I hear that NJN is changing their layout to 50-1 HD (when available) and 50-2 SD sometime in the next few months, so this is probably leading up to it.

- Trip

That would make sense.

Here's the funny thing - apparently they haven't told anyone. TiVo still has guide data for them, up until 14 days or so (or how much TiVo has).

And the real transition will actually be when the freedom tower is built.

And with the pace that construction is going, it'll be another 5 years before it's complete.

And with the pace that construction is going, it'll be another 5 years before it's complete.

I see you're an optimist. :p

That would make sense.

Here's the funny thing - apparently they haven't told anyone. TiVo still has guide data for them, up until 14 days or so (or how much TiVo has).

I gave up on either watching or recording ANYTHING of the NJN HD's a few years ago...as either the guide data wouldn't be correct...or the picture would be so crappy from the numerous multicasts that were running at the same time as the HD feed.

I have VERY fond memories of when NJN-HD used to run the HD Loops of the flyby's/flyovers of the Italian/Irish/Insert Countryside here........

Seems like AGES ago.....whither that programming/footage now?

4-1 is the same for me as always. Strongest of all the NYC channels.

I had a great signal for almost all my channels except for WLIW21 and WEDW49(which I lost completely this week) until 9pm. Then the signal strength remained high but the quality dropped so much that I couldn't keep a reliable lock. I was recording on 2 other channels so I couldn't fine tune the rotator to see if I couldn't improve 4.1 without sacrificing all other channels. If the signal strength is high could I be having multipath problems 50 miles from the ESB on one channel?

I see you're an optimist. :p

Yeah, he's so much of an optimist that he thinks by that time he'll also be driving the GM's Range Extended Electric Car, the Chevy Volt to the freedom tower.

I gave up on either watching or recording ANYTHING of the NJN HD's a few years ago...as either the guide data wouldn't be correct...or the picture would be so crappy from the numerous multicasts that were running at the same time as the HD feed.

I have VERY fond memories of when NJN-HD used to run the HD Loops of the flyby's/flyovers of the Italian/Irish/Insert Countryside here........

Seems like AGES ago.....whither that programming/footage now?

I used to watch it sometimes when we lived in Wayne, NJ. Sometimes it would have macroblocking and other compression artifacts but at times it wasn't all that bad.

None of the cable systems carried NJN HD though. They all carried WNET.

Yeah, he's so much of an optimist that he thinks by that time he'll also be driving the GM's Range Extended Electric Car, the Chevy Volt to the freedom tower.

Nah. I'm still waiting for the flying cars that we were promised. :p

Tonight 2 is the "best" & it's pretty awful! broken sound & a fragmented picture which breaks up & disappears. Often I can't receive 2 reliably, but when I do lock it in, it's better than this. I am also receiving a picture without sound on 11 & 25. & that's all folks! I'm not receiving anything else & show very low/ no reception on all channels except 2,11, & 25.

This is after moving the antenna around, re-scanning, of course also adjusting my UFO to all 12 positions while attempting to get reception. I don't know what they're doing, or whether they think they are finished tweaking. If any advertisers or media executives are lurking here, this message is for you: the OTA viewing audience in South Bklyn is TV-less for days. If you don't intend to provide us with any service after February, rethink your "advertising geared to Seniors" budget -- our budget doesn't stretch to cable.

Last night we had a nice tropo opening and I was able to get WCAU-DT and KYW-DT pretty clear and strong. I also got a few others. Even WBNG analog was coming in.

All of the NYC stations (except WLIW) were coming in pretty strong. I even got WNYW-DT. Didn't check this morning but I'm almost certain it's gone by now. :(

Brooklyn reception use to be good until last Wednesday. I can only get 4 and 5 good. 7 is still yellow and sometimes it just breaks up. 11 I use to get good on the 10 position UFO antenna but now it just breaks up a lot on that position. 2 and 9 I can't get even get a blimp.

I bet that most of you that get good reception are using a outdoor antenna. A outdoor antenna is out of the question because new windows were put in and I can't drill any holes. Also I live so close to the ESB I should not need a outdoor antenna if the reception was not so pathetic and weak.

Reddice -- I've been seeing your posts over the last several days, and I can assure you that those of us in the fringe areas are sympathetic to your problems. I'm only 35 miles out, but I have some of my own multipath issues to deal with, plus signal overload from a nearby FM station, and a weird radio-wave black-hole effect from being very near the ocean. Ultimately, careful placement and aiming of a moderately high-gain, directional antenna got me over the hump.

Still, I can appreciate the limitations of a Brooklyn apartment as far as antenna choices and placement go. One thing I'm curious about is exactly what make and model antenna you're using. From what I've seen, most of those "UFO" antennas are not nearly as directional as you might need.

Reply with that antenna's make and model and we'll take it from there.

I bet that most of you that get good reception are using a outdoor antenna. A outdoor antenna is out of the question because new windows were put in and I can't drill any holes. Also I live so close to the ESB I should not need a outdoor antenna if the reception was not so pathetic and weak.

Oh no that is not true!!!

The signals are strong. Very strong in fact. They are just coming at your receiver from a few different directions, and the reflections are also strong, hence the problem with multipath.

FWIW, for the past week or so, reception of the NYC channels has been great. I am SW of the city about 62 miles out in Burlington County. WHile reception was unreliable in recent weeks, over the past 7 - 10 days all major channels have been very consistent: CBS2, NBC4, ABC7, MY9, CW11, WNYE25, ION31, and WMBC63. Only Fox5 on channel 44 is a no show due to the station in Atlantic City. Is the work on the ESB complete, or can we expect more fluctuations in signal prior to Feb09?

There are some channel changes and moving around on Feb 09. 7 will be moving to physical 7, 11 to physical 11, 13 to physical 13, 2 to 33, and I believe 8 will be moving to 4 times square.

Yes, I've heard that 8's move to the Conde Nast Buidling (4 Times Square) has been approved.

What exactly is on channel 8 now?

NJN. PBS for New Jersey.

- Trip

Anyone else record "Lipstick Jungle" off of OTA NBC on Weds night? My wife's recording was all mucked up...pixelation, audio dropouts...yet my Heroes recording from Monday night was fine...and my Office recording last night was fine....and all my other local OTA (2-1/5-1/7-1) recordings this week...were...fine! She's convinced that I'm ruining HER recordings since all of MINE were fine off of WNBC-DT this week!

Using a D* HR20 to record local OTA .....

TIA

Well, it appears the Combiner is down again - and 7 has reverted to the backup at 4 Time Square.

Strange, any planned big change is usually done overngiht.

Wonder what we will now have in store for us????

Stay tuned, that is if you can tune-in!

I can confirm the Combiner is down again as I work a few blocks from the ESB. Why are they doing this????

Well, we're back kind of.

7 hasn't switched back yet and 13 has disappeared!

What next????

Snell - Are you currently seeing the Combiner Up? I do not see it as of 10:45 AM and I have clear unostructed view from my office window.

It's 10:48, and as I'm typing, I'm scanning channels:

I'm getting from the Combiner O-T-A: 2, 4, 11, 13.

7 appears to still be on 4 Times Square.

So Reddice, you never did get back to me about that antenna that you're using. No matter. Just because I'm such a nice guy, I’m going to gather some facts and try to provide some analysis and a solution for you. Other folks in Brooklyn and similar strong signal areas might do well to follow along.

I’m convinced that your problems are NOT caused by the new broadcast antennas, but rather that they have more to do with your particular reception conditions. If so, it’s only going to get better if YOU take action. Complaining on this forum or to the broadcasters is not going to help.


I saw an earlier post from you that said that you were using a Radio Shack "UFO" style antenna, and I found this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034

So I'm assuming that's what you're using. For the rest of you, note that Radio Shack claims that this antenna has some degree of directionality, and note that it's amplified with a 12-position (mechanical or electronic?) rotator. That would allow someone to rotate it in 30 degree increments. Consider that most highly directional antennas typically require very long boom lengths to get a reasonably directional pattern, so I’m skeptical that this antenna does much to reduce the multipath signal strength to the sides and rear of where it’s aimed. You can study the antenna patterns at the following sites to get a feel for that:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
(click on some of the links on that page to see patterns for specific antennas)


Next, I decided to plug your zip code into both tvfool.com and fmfool.com. Some of what I found probably won't surprise you. You're in a very strong signal area with lots of multipath. So you don't need a big, high-gain, roof-mounted antenna. You knew that. But you also probably don't need an amplified antenna either, and I suspect that you haven't considered that. Judging from some of your posts, I also suspect that you're not aware that amplifiers can be detrimental to reception if you're already in a very strong signal area. Cheap amplifiers can be overloaded very easily, and the end result might very well be no usable signal on one or even all channels. PLEASE read this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryG.html#overload

Now this leads to another issue that you probably didn't consider: according to fmfool.com, you have an FM radio station that's very literally overwhelming you, broadcasting on 91.5Mhz. It’s so strong that I have absolutely no doubt that it’s overloading the amplifier in your Radio Shack amplified antenna, and that overloaded amplifier may very well be affecting reception for every one of the TV stations that you’re trying to receive.

The solution that I’m going to propose is multifaceted, and I expect that you’ll have to do most or all of these things to solve your reception problems:

1) dump that Radio Shack antenna. I’d opt for a Zenith Silver Sensor or one of the clones made by Terk, Phillips or Channel Master. Take a look at the reception pattern here

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

and you can bet that it’s probably more directional than the RS unit that you’re using now. Also, note that it’s NOT amplified.

2) Add a tunable FM trap to eliminate any possibility of tuner overload from that FM station. Forget the one that Radio Shack sells - get something from a name-brand antenna supplier like Winegard or Channel Master. There are plenty of good sources, but you might check out this page for examples:

http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=Antenna%20FM%20Traps

3) You might also need to add an attenuator to LOWER the signal strength coming into your tuner. That same page that I referenced immediately above includes one from Winegard. I’d save this as a last resort, because I think that you’ll probably be fine just by changing from that semi-directional, amplified antenna to a more directional, non-amplified one with a decent trap.





I hope you’re not so fed up with this whole effort that you’re not willing to try these solutions. They’re certainly cheaper than a monthly cable hookup. Good luck. Let us know how you make out.

I was thinking about getting the Silver Sensor however it is UHF only and channels 7, 11 and 13 are moving to high VHF so after February it won't do me any good in picking up those channels. If they made a Silver Sensor with the VHF antennas too then I would pick one up.

You say that channel 7 is running off the Conde Nast Buidling (4 Times Square). I am now getting channel 7 the strongest with four green bars. Unless they are back on the Empire State Building it is stronger for now.

First, I have a Silver Sensor, and for what it's worth, I can pickup analogue 7, 11 and 13with it - albeit, a lot of ghosting and snow. I figure with digital, it should be fine.

Next, from what I can tell with my patterns of "signal strength," 7 hasn't moved back to ESB as of yet.

Maybe I will try connecting my antenna to the FM trap. I know that because of 91.5 it is hard to tune in stations like 89.5, 89.9, 92.3 and 93.1 because it is so strong. I am even able to get 91.5 on the shortwave band. Which is the best FM trap to get. It is worth a shot and if it does not help much I will be only wasting about $20.

There are a number of companies that make clones of the Silver Sensor. From what I saw today, Terk has one that includes rabbit ears for VHF. But you're so close to the ESB that you might actually get adequate signal strength from a UHF only version of the Silver Sensor. In fact, the rabbit ears of the Terk version of this antenna might not be directional enough to overcome your multipath problems. So I would actually try the UHF only version of the Silver Sensor first.

I doubt that an FM trap will do you much good with your current antenna. What you really need to do is install it after the antenna and before any amplifier. If I understand that Radio Shack antenna that you have, it does not have any provisions for inserting a trap before its built-in amplifier. So you're still going to be overloading that amplifier. Try it anyway. You're still going to need it when you switch to an unamplified antenna.

And here's another thought: how are you getting your satellite signal? Is the dish mounted on the side of your apartment and the cable going into the side of the building, or is it roof mounted and shared among your neighbors? The reason I ask is because I saw a number of UHF/VHF antenna mounts that attach to existing satellite dish mounts. Check that Solid Signal web site that I referenced earlier. If you can get the right orientation with a small, directional outdoor antenna, you can combine the satellite and OTA antenna leads on one cable and you're done!

The Radio Shack mast mounted pre amp has a very effective FM notch filter.

I tried the Terk antenna. That was the first antenna I bought. It is not amplified and reception is about the same with that one. I ended up giving it to my mother.

Is anyone going to this event?

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-285622A1.pdf

I see they had one on Friday night as well, in Brooklyn.

WHEN: September 27, 10:30 AM to 11:30 AM
WHERE: Forest Hills Library
Auditorium
108-19 71 Avenue, Forest Hills
Queens,, NY, 11375
Co-Sponsor: Univision Communications, Inc

Here is a link to an interview with Commissioner Adelstein on WNBC:

http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=0#videoid=701283

He mentioned antenna concerns, which have largely been ignored, outside of forums such as AVS.

I tried the Terk antenna. That was the first antenna I bought. It is not amplified and reception is about the same with that one. I ended up giving it to my mother.

WHICH Terk antenna? There are two that look just like a Silver Sensor. One is amplified and the other isn't. They also have a number of others that aren't nearly so directional:

http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/GenProductListCmd?type=nprev&catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=5065&langId=-1&page=&urlString=&productId=&brand=

And did you try it with a trap inline before your tuner?

Again, you want an unamplified directional antenna to be used with a high-quality FM trap. And MAYBE an attenuator.

The Radio Shack mast mounted pre amp has a very effective FM notch filter.

He doesn't need a preamp. His signals are too strong and they'll probably overwhelm a preamp.

i'm now getting channel 13-01 - 03 in ny on channel 61 14 miles from nyc.

i'm now getting channel 13-01 - 03 in ny on channel 61 14 miles from nyc.

The new Combiner has made 13 (61) viewable for the first time, and not only that, it has a more stable signal for me than 4 (28), previously my most reliable station - now my worst from the ESB.

I'm dealing with loads of multipath and strange reception!

And now 25 miles from Empire I can no longer receive WNET HD. The more I see whats happening with HDTV the more I think of HD Radio. The are both being treated like experimental systems. Not a great way to attract viewers who aren't accustomed to constant outages like these.

WABC-DT is now back on the ESB.

When did they move?

When I got home late yesterday afternoon, I did a scan and the station's
"signal strength" on my receiver was back up to normal.

Well Channel 7 is still strong. 4 green bars which sometimes goes to 3 bars. 5 is also strong with 4 green bars. 4 is weaker with just 3 bars and some dropouts. I still can't 9 and 11 is very weak.

As for the poster who said that I might be getting too strong of a signal you are wrong. I tried many antennas including a cheap old antenna from the 1970's which is weak and with that the reception was worse. If you would read the other posts you can see that since two weeks ago reception in Brooklyn got worse than it use to be. I can see that channel 7 is running better but I use to have no problems getting 9 and 11.

Anyone else catch the 6 oclock hour of NBC's AM show? They had a little piece on OTA tuners getting viewers ready for the "digital" signals that are coming and the analog signals that are going away. What STILL amazes me....is that they can't "dumb down" the conversation for those that need it....IOW's, neither anchor stated, "Hey stupid, if you are watching us right now on a TV with an antenna instead of cable or satellite" THIS AFFECTS YOU! If you're watching this on satellite or cable/fios, you're good to go!

All the digital vs analog, ATSC vs NTSC, rabbit ear antenna vs digital antenna lingo HAS to overwhelm those folks who NEED TO KNOW about this but just can't grasp it (i.e. the elderly, the poor etc...).

Or maybe it's just me....

I'll have to check to see if it's up on their website.

What I don't understand is that these digital signals have been granted their own spectrum unlike HD radio and yet enough of them have coverage issues or will be moving to new frequencies in February. So many people have purchased HD TV's already and they must be confused by the poor signal being supplied by many of the stations. Stations are operating on certain frequencies currently but that will change in February. I’m wondering whether stations will have the same footprint on February 18th, that they will have had on the 17th.

At 3 am near downtown Brooklyn,

2.x,4.x,7.x,9.x,and 11.x are down (0 signal);
5.x is (as usual) around 70;
21.x, 25.x, 47.x (and some other odd channels I don't recall right now) are around 70; AND
13.x is at 87 (better than I have ever noticed for ANY digital OTA channels)!

I am sure 13.x must just be doing some testing with the power up, but it is nice to know that I should be good to go when they keep the power up. It will be interesting to see if the Combiner stations are improved when the power is back up (the last 2 weeks I have been only getting 4.x (fairly consistent), 7.x (marginal), and 11.x (marginal)).

By the way, an earlier detailed and informative post (7396 by James Rothe) blamed Brooklyn reception problems on multipath, FM interference, and signal overload rather than the broadcast antennas. I certainly do have multipath issues (e.g. ghosts with about a 4% shift right on analog channels), but I do not see any evidence of FM interference or signal overload. I probably need to peak my antenna better, but I am also sure that multipath is not the problem with my recent digital reception problems on channels 2.x,7.x,9.x,and 11.x. The reason is simply that the signals were pretty good 2 weeks ago and then suddenly dropped significantly (to below 40) so my tuner could no longer get a lock. There is a lot of building going on in downtown Brooklyn, but I don't think enough to increase the multipath interference overnight :). There are of course many variables in TV reception, but the quality of the broadcast signal is definitely one of the significant ones at the moment. I just wish the broadcasters would provide some live information on expected signal patterns and the status of antenna work (tvfool and antennaweb are ok, but clearly do not keep up with the frequent testing, tweaking, and maintenance changes).

-----

Winegard HD7080P rooftop antenna, Winegard HDP-269 high input pre-amp (to compensate for long cable run).

What I don't understand is that these digital signals have been granted their own spectrum unlike HD radio and yet enough of them have coverage issues or will be moving to new frequencies in February. So many people have purchased HD TV's already and they must be confused by the poor signal being supplied by many of the stations. Stations are operating on certain frequencies currently but that will change in February. I’m wondering whether stations will have the same footprint on February 18th, that they will have had on the 17th.

They were granted new channels, but some of these new channels had interference issues. That's why, for example, WNYW-DT is no go for me.

I do not see any evidence of FM interference or signal overload.

Oh, come on now! Who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes? ;)

There are some useful drawings in Channel Master's installation guide of what various types of interference and noise might look like on analog channels. See chapter 11 at this URL:

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/manuals/guide_AntennaInstallation.pdf

(I've often referred to the analog images as I've been trying to diagnose issues with my HDTV reception. I'd love to know what the FCC expects us to do once these very visible indicators are eliminated.)

By the way, that's a an awful lot of antenna that you have there for such a nearby location. I'm really surprised that you need so much signal. Not that I'm challenging your decision on that, because it seems that you have put some thought into your efforts, but I'm still curious to hear your rationale for that antenna choice.

That document is probably nostalgic for many! They should update it for the DTV era though...

That document is probably nostalgic for many! They should update it for the DTV era though...

Well, yes and no. The installation guidelines really wouldn't have changed. But the troubleshooting section is what's about to be rendered irrelevant.

What I mentioned the other day - basically saying that you can look at the picture of an analog channel and tell a great deal about signal strength, multipath, RF and FM interference, etc - is all going to be taken away from us as troubleshooting clues. What we're left with is a signal strength indicator from our tuner and MAYBE, on certain tuners only, a signal quality indicator. On a home-theater PC, you can also use an error checking/correcting utility like MPEG2Repair to tell you about how many reception errors you're getting - sort of like a signal quality indicator - but the bottom line is that none of the available indicators for HDTV tell us anything about multipath or noise sources in the same way that a good old analog picture would.

I almost always have a very strong signal on this channel but sometimes the picture and/or audio is screwed up anyways. I don't think it is due to my antenna - I think it has something to do with ION. Anyone else ever have problems with this station?

Anybody get any weird red static while watching Smallville last night?

Hi everyone.... I just discovered this site, and BOY!!! do I have questions. I'm sure that my questions have been answered somewhere, but there is so much reading in here that it is becoming too overwhelming for me.

That being said, let me start by introducing myself, and then get to my questions. My name is Steven. I live in Forest Hills, (Queens) NY. I do not own or subscribe to any Cable or Satellite TV services. I just have standard TVs on which I pull in whatever stations come in on the airwaves for free. Also, I still use VCRs. I am now discovering that besides having to prepare for the new DTV signal (to take effect in February of 2009), I will also have to get myself new Recorder devices (so that I can do Timer Recordings of my favorite programs when I am away from home).

Recently I purchased 2 Digital Converter boxes for the TVs that I currently have. I have not hooked them up yet. I also purchased myself 1 new TV set that has an ATSC tuner built in to it. It is a Sansui DTV1900 19 Inch Color Digital TV. I have tested this TV out, and it seems to be OK. It played all of the Analog stations that I still currently receive. It also had a setting for me to receive the Digital stations (which are now playing concurrently with the Analog signals). When I hit the button on my remote control to do this, all I could say was WOW!!!!!!!! The picture reception was noticeably better. I also noticed that the stations were defined differently... instead of stations like 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc... there were the same stations, but they were listed as sub channels --- 2 01, 2 02, 4 01, 4 02 4 04, 5 01, 7 01, etc...

Here is the first problem that I have encountered. The picture would occasionally freeze up or break up, and then the TV screen would go blank and say "No Signal." It would be fine when I switched back to my Anaolg signal. I went to a local Circuit City store, and asked them what I could do about this. The sales clerk told me that I would need to get a new Antenna. I told him that I currently use a Rabbit Ears antenna, and that I can not get an outdoor antenna (I live in an Apartment building, and Roof Antenna are prohibitted as per the Building/Co-Op Management). The sales clerk said that he had one Antenna available for me... RCA ANT1500 at $60. He assured me that this antenna will pick up the signal that my Rabbit Ears antenna can not. Well, I did a little search on the Internet for this Antenna, and first off, I found it for almost half the price that Circuit City is asking. Next, I found a few personal reviews for this antenna, and they all shared the same/similar thoughts on this particular antenna.... They all said that there was no real noticeable difference in their reception, and that the signal still broke up 3 to 4 times within a 30 minute period.

I've been reading some of the posts here (I've gone back about 10 pages), and some of you have referred to signal strengths being Red or Green or Yellow. What does this mean??? Also, where are you seeing this? My TV doesn't show me any Signal Strength. It either shows a picture, or it says No Signal.

Another question I have is, what indoor Antennas are there that I can purchase (preferably at a cheap price)? Please... Name specific models/brands, and any first hand knowledge that you may have of it.

Another problem I already forsee is, I am going to have to purchase me a DVD/DVR player/Recorder. I am finding out (from the different manufacturers) that they don't currently have (or make) a VCR that will be able to do Timer Recording of programs. I have never recorded in DVD/DVR format, so I am really very ignorant when it comes to this. There are so many different formats out there (DVR, DVR-, DVR+, DVRW, DV-RW, etc...), and they say that some of these are not comaptable on other players, that I'm not sure what I would need to look for. Also, I would definitely need a disc that I could record over (constantly, as I tape a daily Soap Opera, which I do not need to keep once I've watch it). Any advice would be appreciated....

Please e-mail me at cueball070358@aol.com

Yes, WPXN-DT channel 31-1~4 had audio problems today (Oct 4th) when broadcasting MASH. The sound alternated loud and soft many times per second - like a warble.

it's sunday at 4:16 AM and when i turned my tv on channels 2,4,9,11,21 had their digital feeds off. Funny part channel 5 still had channel 9 stuff on 05-02 but both 09-01,02 were no single.

Yes, WPXN-DT channel 31-1~4 had audio problems today (Oct 4th) when broadcasting MASH. The sound alternated loud and soft many times per second - like a warble.

oh so it wasn't just me then, i thought it was a coming storm or them dam planes flying over. In rain they fly over my house for JFK, screws with reception all the time. I must say I'm happy to leave analog behind and welcome digital broadcasting. I like how PBS stations have broken their channels into categories like main channel, children, infomercials and stuff. It will be intresting in the coming year how the big boys use these new avenues of broadcasting.

Another question I have is, what indoor Antennas are there that I can purchase (preferably at a cheap price)? Please... Name specific models/brands, and any first hand knowledge that you may have of it.

I would suggest checking out EV's Indoor Antenna review, but it will take quite some time to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

However, you may find that an indoor class antenna is not going to get it done.

For UHF, a CM4221 can be placed indoors with relative ease, but VHF is going to take some luck. Outdoor grade VHF antennas are usually too big to put inside unless you don't mind a very large "ceiling ornament" in the room. Do you have any attic access or does the apartment have a shared antenna?

As for the CEA colors, take them with several grains of salt. I have not found them to be very helpful and in my case showing me as violet (or worse) is simply wrong.

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-zones.php

I would suggest checking out TVFool.com instead.

Does any one know if they are giving out the new 8500 cable boxs at 23st??or 8450??

Yes, WPXN-DT channel 31-1~4 had audio problems today (Oct 4th) when broadcasting MASH. The sound alternated loud and soft many times per second - like a warble.

wpxn operation is quite a joke. i hear they have no money and basically have interns running the place outside of business hours. they are experimenting with data inside of their tv spectrum which guess what...causes problems with their tv signal! i guess they already figured out no one is watching their programs so why not.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_/ai_n17218612

Is WNYE going to be showing anything in HD, and if so, when? I saw their crawl today about the DTV transition, and it said they would be transmitting some programs in HD.

Right now, WNYE is anything but HD. Last I saw, both subchannels were SD at 352x480i. The traffic one had the brightness cranked up so high that the brightest whites were clipping and becoming black.

That may have changed, but it still doesn't speak to their amazing technical setup.

- Trip

.... However, you may find that an indoor class antenna is not going to get it done.

For UHF, a CM4221 can be placed indoors with relative ease, but VHF is going to take some luck. Outdoor grade VHF antennas are usually too big to put inside unless you don't mind a very large "ceiling ornament" in the room. Do you have any attic access or does the apartment have a shared antenna?



I live in a 7 story Apartment Building. There is no attic. As for having an Outdoor Antenna, it is NOT permitted in my building (by order of both Building Management and the Co-Op Management).

The only shared antenna that I know of, is that many years ago, the Building Management installed cable, so that any tennant that wishes to subscribe, van be hooked up to it. I am one of those who does NOT wish to subscribe... I'm hardly home long enough to watch regular Network programming, I'm not going to invest $30 - $50 per month for more stations that I'm not going to have time to watch.

I live in a 7 story Apartment Building. There is no attic. As for having an Outdoor Antenna, it is NOT permitted in my building (by order of both Building Management and the Co-Op Management).

The only shared antenna that I know of, is that many years ago, the Building Management installed cable, so that any tennant that wishes to subscribe, van be hooked up to it. I am one of those who does NOT wish to subscribe... I'm hardly home long enough to watch regular Network programming, I'm not going to invest $30 - $50 per month for more stations that I'm not going to have time to watch.

You're just like me. I, too don't subcribe to cable because I hardly watch TV as it is.

I live on the 18th floor Co-op apartment at the Chelsea area of Manhattan. My window faces east and I have a direct line of sight of the Empire State Building (about a half a mile, more or less).

I bought this RCA VHF/UHF non-amplified (can't remember the exact model right now) set-top antenna ($13 at a local K-Mart) and a 12 foot coaxial cable. I have the antenna sitting right at the window. I can recieve DTV channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25, 30, 40, and 68 (my tv a Mitsubishi WS-55511 CRT RPTV with intergrated DTV tuner).

Anyway, can you at least see the Empire State Building from your window?

Also, you might (I'm practically sure of it), have a problem with "multi-path" reception as well. I think getting an "amplified" set-top antenna will do you no good, since you're not that far away from the signal source in the first place.

You will need a very decent UHF antenna (all the NYC DTV stations are using that band for now), or the "Silver Sensor" (and it clones, someone here will give you the exact model name and brand) which is more a directional antenna, which may help with the multi-path problem you may have.

I'm no expert, but someone may chime it with more exact info.



Danny

Are you guys getting NBC and CBS after like 2am through your OTA antennas?

It doesn't happen everyday but let's say 5 days out of a week , my antenna doesn't find any signals from NBC and CBS between 1:30am/2am and 5am/6am.

I also have terrible pixelation on TV, is that what multipath signals do?

Does any one know if they are giving out the new 8500 cable boxs at 23st??or 8450??

Here's TWC thread for our area.....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=297592

Right now, WNYE is anything but HD. Last I saw, both subchannels were SD at 352x480i. The traffic one had the brightness cranked up so high that the brightest whites were clipping and becoming black.

That may have changed, but it still doesn't speak to their amazing technical setup.

- Trip

Well the crawl did say they were going to broadcast some in HD.

DoITT doesn't exactly move at the speed of light, and having dealt with them for a few years (I used to work for the city) I would take the "we're going to broadcast in HD" claim to mean that they would do it sometime later on.

The traffic cams aren't half bad now. They've improved somewhat. What they do need to do is turn off the audio.

By the way I believe WTBY may have gone all digital, and shut off its analog signal early. I don't get their analog anymore and our cable provider says their analog (54) went dark this month. Interestingly enough, the cable co says they don't have a good enough signal to carry it anymore. I can get it just fine OTA and I'm sure the cable co's HAAT is much better than mine.

Are you guys getting NBC and CBS after like 2am through your OTA antennas?

It doesn't happen everyday but let's say 5 days out of a week , my antenna doesn't find any signals from NBC and CBS between 1:30am/2am and 5am/6am.

I also have terrible pixelation on TV, is that what multipath signals do?

These days, they are shutting off the digital feeds during those hours. I don't get the analog, so I am not sure whether they are doing it for analog.

If the signal strength fluctuates a lot with picture freezing and lot of pixellation, it usually means multipath. For low signal strength, the signal meter will show low signal strength (e.g. one bar ) without much fluctuation. I may be wrong but this is my experience with multipath when I built the 4-bay CM-4221 clone without reflector. The problem went away when I bought the Eagle Apen DB-2 clone (with the reflector). I am waiting to see how it performs in VHF though after digital switchover. Currently I get analog ABC (channel 7) with unwatchable pictures (only can hear the sound) with the same antenna setup. I don't get 2, 4, 5, 9, 11 analog at all or my TV doesn't detect them.

Re WNBC & WCBS after 1am:

These days, they are shutting off the digital feeds during those hours.

Why is that? Usually for me it's halfway through Conan O'Brien. Very frustrating, as I don't get the analog signal at all.

I noticed this morning that WCBS-DT was shut off exactly at 12:37am just as the Late Late Show was starting.

You're just like me. I, too don't subcribe to cable because I hardly watch TV as it is.

Anyway, can you at least see the Empire State Building from your window?

Also, you might (I'm practically sure of it), have a problem with "multi-path" reception as well. I think getting an "amplified" set-top antenna will do you no good, since you're not that far away from the signal source in the first place.

You will need a very decent UHF antenna (all the NYC DTV stations are using that band for now), or the "Silver Sensor" (and it clones, someone here will give you the exact model name and brand) which is more a directional antenna, which may help with the multi-path problem you may have.

I'm no expert, but someone may chime it with more exact info.



Danny

No, where I live, I do not have a direct site of The Empire State Building.

This antenna is meant to only receive channels 7-69 (which is all you will need come February) and it works perfectly for me even though I have it installed in my attic (which is less ideal than mounting it on my chimney). I am also using an HDP 269 since I am splitting the signal 2 times b\c of the way the house was wired. I receive all the digital channels perfectly except 13.1 which breaks up occasionally (but only when it is raining outside).

I hope this information helps others who may be having trouble with their reception.

These days, they are shutting off the digital feeds during those hours. I don't get the analog, so I am not sure whether they are doing it for analog.

If the signal strength fluctuates a lot with picture freezing and lot of pixellation, it usually means multipath. For low signal strength, the signal meter will show low signal strength (e.g. one bar ) without much fluctuation. I may be wrong but this is my experience with multipath when I built the 4-bay CM-4221 clone without reflector. The problem went away when I bought the Eagle Apen DB-2 clone (with the reflector). I am waiting to see how it performs in VHF though after digital switchover. Currently I get analog ABC (channel 7) with unwatchable pictures (only can hear the sound) with the same antenna setup. I don't get 2, 4, 5, 9, 11 analog at all or my TV doesn't detect them.


Alright, thanks. I wasn't sure if there was anything wrong with my antennas. Yup! That's exactly what happens. so it's perhaps a multipath issue. Is there anything you can do to reduce it? It's cool that you can get an outdoor one. Not an option for me as I don't own the rooftop. Gosh, when they go all digital, many people on lower levels could lose watchable pictures. For 2, , 5, 9, 11, I wonder if / when they are gonna start sending clear QAM (digital signals over the cable). that'd be more ideal than OTA for people like us who live with skyscrapers, plus QAM is oblivious to weather, airplaines in the sky, and doesn't require an expensive antenna.. :p If your TV set has a QAM tuner in addition to ATSC, you might as well give it a try.

According to this site, Manhattan has QAM signals for some channels.
the first half of the list is OTA channels and 2nd half Clear QAM in zip code 10010. But if your TV doesn't have a QAM tuner, forget about this.
http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineupui?Cmd=LocationProgramsWeb&Country=US&Postcode=10010

Re WNBC & WCBS after 1am:



Why is that? Usually for me it's halfway through Conan O'Brien. Very frustrating, as I don't get the analog signal at all.

Oh yeah , they'd better stop cutting off broadcast like that after the transition! :(

CBS and NBC terminated their digital broadcast around 9pm today as soon as the Presidential debate began. :OOOOOO

CBS and NBC terminated their digital broadcast around 9pm today as soon as the Presidential debate began. :OOOOOO

No they didn't.

I live 48.5 miles from the ESB and I watched the debate on WNBC-DT OTA just fine.

No they didn't.

I live 48.5 miles from the ESB and I watched the debate on WNBC-DT OTA just fine.


Geez, I had my antenna hooked up to a computer tuner as opposed to a television display. thanx for letting me know caz i was in shock! ;)

Alright, thanks. I wasn't sure if there was anything wrong with my antennas. Yup! That's exactly what happens. so it's perhaps a multipath issue. Is there anything you can do to reduce it? It's cool that you can get an outdoor one. Not an option for me as I don't own the rooftop. Gosh, when they go all digital, many people on lower levels could lose watchable pictures. For 2, , 5, 9, 11, I wonder if / when they are gonna start sending clear QAM (digital signals over the cable). that'd be more ideal than OTA for people like us who live with skyscrapers, plus QAM is oblivious to weather, airplaines in the sky, and doesn't require an expensive antenna.. :p If your TV set has a QAM tuner in addition to ATSC, you might as well give it a try.

My antennas are not outdoor antenna. They are indoor antenna only. If you see my signature, you will notice a Terk HDTVa sitting on top of my subwoofer. This was my old antenna. I have replaced it with a eagle aspen DB2 clone mounted on floor standing lamp.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6711/assateague2023vy7.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=assateague2023vy7.jpg)
I got it for $25 in amazon. The original DB2 is available for $32, I think. I highly recommend this antenna over any other.
also, from another post I came to know that you have HDTVa which is the amplified version which will cause problem at your location (you are too close to the transmitter). Have you tried the HDTVa without the amplifier? The DB2 is a very good antenna and I am using it without any amplifier after the HDTVa fell apart.

What is wrong with the WCBS aspect ratio? I am only gettig a 4:3 picture even though the settings are correct on my TV. I receive the normal 16:9 on other over the air channels. HD TV is driving me crazy. It is truly not dependable at this time. You don't know from moment to moment what kind of picture you'll receive. Considering the late date you'd think they'd have done a complete conversion. One moment you're watching full screen video and the next you are watching a much smaller video image.

R.F. -

There is no reason to complain, WCBS is doing nothing wrong other than broadcasting an S.D. program.

"The Guiding Light" is not produced in H.D. - 16.9!!!!!

But what about the morning show. That is done in HD and today it was only 4:3 with no graphics on the sides which they usually do when they play 4:3 content on their newscasts. I know that network is putting in a new TX (network transmission not transmitter) but I doubt that had anything to do with this mornings issue.

What is "the morning show"?

Are you talking about the local news programming before 7 a.m.? That's in HD.

The CBS Network "Early Show" is produced in S.D.

do they go off the air overnight?

It appears that stations continue to do work during the middle of the night on the Combiner antenna atop the ESB.

The Combiner is currently used to transmit:
2, 4, 7, 9, 11 and 13.

At 7:30 AM, I am getting all the DTV stations as per usual EXCEPT still nothing at 13.1 DTV.

Anyone actually getting it now?

It's 7:31, and 13.1 - "Sesame Street" coming in loud and clear!

thanks - I wonder why I am getting all my other stations at usual full strength but can't get 13.1 DTV at all???

My antennas are not outdoor antenna. They are indoor antenna only. If you see my signature, you will notice a Terk HDTVa sitting on top of my subwoofer. This was my old antenna. I have replaced it with a eagle aspen DB2 clone mounted on floor standing lamp.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6711/assateague2023vy7.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=assateague2023vy7.jpg)
I got it for $25 in amazon. The original DB2 is available for $32, I think. I highly recommend this antenna over any other.
also, from another post I came to know that you have HDTVa which is the amplified version which will cause problem at your location (you are too close to the transmitter). Have you tried the HDTVa without the amplifier? The DB2 is a very good antenna and I am using it without any amplifier after the HDTVa fell apart.

Impressive! I assumed it was an outdoor antenna because of the look. And $25, $32 aren't bad at all if it works out for you (My Terk costed 37 dollars at J&R). Yes, I tried with the amp turned off. Believable or not, the signal strength was between 30 - 50% on my screen meter. Strange caz I live on East 70', probably 1-2 miles from the ESB, but let me remind you, compared to areas like SOHO and Tribeca, UES has a lot of 40-50 story buildings (and I live on the 4th floor :s ) , maybe that's why?!?! With the amp on, I get between 60 and 100% most of the times. but i'll try one more time without any amp. Unfortunately, I cannot adjust the amount of amp to optimize it. Thanx for the antenna info (I mean DB2). I'll look up the dimensions and see if it's possible for me to keep it hooked to my TV at all times if I have to give up on the Terk I have.

do they go off the air overnight?

It appears that stations continue to do work during the middle of the night on the Combiner antenna atop the ESB.

The Combiner is currently used to transmit:
2, 4, 7, 9, 11 and 13.


Trust me, it depends on the day!!! Channel 2 and 4 (that I often watch late at night) sometimes stop around 1 am and come back in early morning. That happens like 3 to 5 days of out of a week. :confused: Channel 5 seem to consistantly air at least until 2-3pm. I'm not sure about the other channels.

That sucks. How do you watch Poker After Dark at 2:05?

Someone told me channels above 52 will go away in Feb as well. I didn't know that.

That's part of the digital transition - Midnight, February 17, 2009!

Channel 5 seem to consistantly air at least until 2-3pm. I'm not sure about the other channels.

WNYW-DT is using a separate antenna.

WNYW-DT is using a separate antenna.

That explains indeed. :)

I wanted to tell you that I tested QAM signals. There are tons and they don't go down after 1 or 2am like OTA. if you wanna watch CBS or NBC late at night, QAM may well be an alternative for you. That's IF your TV set/computer's TV tuner has a QAM tuner though. You can just hook up the coax from your wall directly to the digital tuner of your device (if it detects QAM in addition to ATSC) and scan for digital cable. It's cool caz you don't have to deal with the positioning of an antenna and pictures you get are unaffected by nearby structures, flying objects, or weather. The annoying part is that you initially have to sort out which channels are which becuase the numbering system for QAM is quite confusing. But once you get passed that stage, everything's so cool! Both the signal strength and quality are almost always 100%, and there's no antenna taking up space in your room!

JPRU34,
I stopped getting 13.1 a few days ago also. Anyone know why?
Is it becuase w're in Jersey?

I am not sure why the reception weakened - however, after readjusting my antenna in my attic (by pointing it slightly downward), I am now able to get 13.1 reliably (at least for now.....)

WNYW-DT is using a separate antenna.

That explains why I can get it the strongest next to channel 7.

Sorry I did not post in over a week. I was away. I find that digital stations are harder to pull in then analog. When I went away last week to my aunts house who lives in Canadenses PA with a DTV Converter Box and a old but big roof antenna I could not get a signal digital station. The same antenna could pick up analog stations all the way from NYC but digital stations from Scranton PA only 30 miles away I could only get a little blimp of a digital station on only channels 31 (38 CW) and 32 (Ion) but with no picture. I could not get WNEP 16 or any station. So I see the entire digital transition as more of a nuisance and the big reason many people are going have to get cable or satellite TV wither they can afford it or not to be able to watch OTA stations that they use to be able to get on analog but they can't get reliable with digital.

T... When I went away last week to my aunts house who lives in Canadenses PA with a DTV Converter Box and a old but big roof antenna I could not get a signal digital station. ...

The Poconos are a 'Black Hole' for broadcast TV. I get only snowy VHF here down the road from Canadenses in Tannersville. Sad state of affairs for the newest suburb of NYC.

--- CHAS

During the July 4 week, my grandparents own a timeshare up near Bushkill, and there's absolutely nothing there. All I can see are analog signals from WTBY-54 and a faint WMBC-63... and when the weather's right WNJB2 comes over the mountain. Absolutely nothing digital.

Even the translators from Stroudsburg won't make it. On FM, there are a few stations from Poughkeepsie and faint NYC signals, plus Stroudsburg and other odds and ends mainly from New York state, up toward Port Jervis.

Last time I was there, I drove all the way up to Port Jervis to get WTBY-DT and WRNN-DT. I was amused at how many New York City stations made it in up there. I also saw Scranton analogs but not digitals. I also drove up toward Scranton to get WSWB-DT and WQPX-DT, and those were a real challenge to get, very picky signals. I thought I saw a flash of WIVT-34 analog from Binghamton but couldn't find a spot to stop on the Interstate at the mountaintop, and wasn't about to drive up to Binghamton to try to get those stations...

- Trip

Last time I was there, I drove all the way up to Port Jervis to get WTBY-DT and WRNN-DT. I was amused at how many New York City stations made it in up there. I also saw Scranton analogs but not digitals. I also drove up toward Scranton to get WSWB-DT and WQPX-DT, and those were a real challenge to get, very picky signals. I thought I saw a flash of WIVT-34 analog from Binghamton but couldn't find a spot to stop on the Interstate at the mountaintop, and wasn't about to drive up to Binghamton to try to get those stations...

- Trip

Port Jervis is not that far from me, so you can get a picture of what I have to deal with.

I get all of NYC ESB except for WNET-DT (low power) and WNYW-DT (different antenna pattern). But my antenna is a CM4228 on a 70 foot tower with a 30dB preamp. WNYW-DT is the height of irony since I work for Fox. :)

I have a 2nd 4228 to throw up there so I'm not giving up on WNYW just yet. It barely comes in but breaks up a lot.

Rabbit ears/UHF loop inside, all I get is W36AZ (WNJB repeater, analog), WMBC and WASA-LP analog. Antenna on roof level I get WRNN-DT, WTBY-DT, WNJN-DT/WNJB-DT and snowy but watchable NYC analogs.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. I do it actually for a few reasons -


I want to have options in case cable goes out. Last ice storm took down trees and took out cable for about a day or so. My antenna tower didn't even flinch.

I am, like you, an RF geek.

Cable may be on the axe list if the budget gets tight.

WWOR-DT fails at life. They're repeating the ESPN SD full screen feed of the "MNF" Giants-Browns game on their OTA channel even though the station is plenty capable of HD broadcasts (when the station airs Yankees games). Maybe the game originating from Cleveland has something to do with it, but then why not just pick the ESPN HD feed? Of course ESPN-HD on cable is a million times better looking, which is just sad but expected from the Ch.9 folks. :(

^ LOL! Tell us how you really feel about the station. I hear ya, though. I was gonna make similar comments in the MNF thread about the PQ, but I guess you got there already.

P.S. I hate the my9 logo (and all the MNTV logos for that matter.) Worst logo in the business.

WASA-LP is on the air? I didn't know that. What're they airing?

- Trip

I'm new to the forum and I've found lots of good information so far... However, I'm having trouble finding specific recommendations for antennas. Is there a quality indoor antenna (blue / violet) that will work for me? My details from antennaweb are below.

blue
uhf WNJN 50 PBS MONTCLAIR, NJ 135° 8.1 50
blue
vhf WNET 13 PBS NEWARK, NJ 137° 21.9 13
blue
vhf WNBC 4 NBC NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 4
blue
uhf WFUT 68 TFA NEWARK, NJ 137° 21.9 68
* blue
uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR, NJ Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 135° 8.1 51
blue
vhf WCBS 2 CBS NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 2
blue
vhf WABC 7 ABC NEW YORK, NY 145° 22.3 7
blue
vhf WNYW 5 FOX NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 5
blue
vhf WPIX 11 CW NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 11
blue
uhf WNYE 25 IND NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 25
blue
vhf WWOR 9 MNT SECAUCUS, NJ 137° 21.9 9
blue
uhf WXTV 41 UNI PATERSON, NJ 137° 21.9 41
blue
uhf WPXN 31 ION NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 31
blue
uhf WMBC 63 IND NEWTON, NJ 306° 14.8 63
* violet
vhf WNJB-DT 8.1 PBS NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 136° 21.5 8
* violet
uhf WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON, NJ 306° 14.8 18
* violet
vhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK, NJ Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 137° 21.9 13
violet
uhf WNJU 47 TEL LINDEN, NJ 137° 21.9 47
* violet
uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR, NJ 135° 8.1 51
* violet
vhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK, NY Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 145° 22.4 7

WWOR-DT fails at life. They're repeating the ESPN SD full screen feed of the "MNF" Giants-Browns game on their OTA channel even though the station is plenty capable of HD broadcasts (when the station airs Yankees games). Maybe the game originating from Cleveland has something to do with it, but then why not just pick the ESPN HD feed? Of course ESPN-HD on cable is a million times better looking, which is just sad but expected from the Ch.9 folks. :(

Strange. It was HD on Cablevision. Looked blurry, but it was 16:9. They were taking in the ESPN HD feed for sure.

As for it looking better on ESPN, well consider that they aren't taking the backhaul feed. They are taking ESPN's fronthaul. So, lets argue that ESPN is sending it under 38 Mbps to WWOR, then it didn't have much to work with to look any better.

How do I get WRNN-DT from Hempstead?

I'm new to the forum and I've found lots of good information so far... However, I'm having trouble finding specific recommendations for antennas. Is there a quality indoor antenna (blue / violet) that will work for me? My details from antennaweb are below.

blue
uhf WNJN 50 PBS MONTCLAIR, NJ 135° 8.1 50
blue
vhf WNET 13 PBS NEWARK, NJ 137° 21.9 13
blue
vhf WNBC 4 NBC NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 4
blue
uhf WFUT 68 TFA NEWARK, NJ 137° 21.9 68
* blue
uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR, NJ Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 135° 8.1 51
blue
vhf WCBS 2 CBS NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 2
blue
vhf WABC 7 ABC NEW YORK, NY 145° 22.3 7
blue
vhf WNYW 5 FOX NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 5
blue
vhf WPIX 11 CW NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 11
blue
uhf WNYE 25 IND NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 25
blue
vhf WWOR 9 MNT SECAUCUS, NJ 137° 21.9 9
blue
uhf WXTV 41 UNI PATERSON, NJ 137° 21.9 41
blue
uhf WPXN 31 ION NEW YORK, NY 137° 21.9 31
blue
uhf WMBC 63 IND NEWTON, NJ 306° 14.8 63
* violet
vhf WNJB-DT 8.1 PBS NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 136° 21.5 8
* violet
uhf WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON, NJ 306° 14.8 18
* violet
vhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK, NJ Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 137° 21.9 13
violet
uhf WNJU 47 TEL LINDEN, NJ 137° 21.9 47
* violet
uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR, NJ 135° 8.1 51
* violet
vhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK, NY Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 145° 22.4 7


The information above to many of is meaningless unless you tell us where you live and how far you estimate your home from the Empire State Building in NYC.

Do you live in a private home, are there a lot of trees, can you see the
Empire State Building from your home, can you mount an antenna on your roof???

Lots of questions!

From that addtional data, some of us can try to help you.

The information above to many of is meaningless unless you tell us where you live and how far you estimate your home from the Empire State Building in NYC.

Do you live in a private home, are there a lot of trees, can you see the
Empire State Building from your home, can you mount an antenna on your roof???

Lots of questions!

From that addtional data, some of us can try to help you.


Sorry about that! I live in a private home, but cannot mount the antenna on my roof. There are some trees about 20ft high around the house. I cannot see the Empire State buidling, it's about 20 miles from my home. My zipcode is 07082. Thanks for any help.

I just checked my address on tvfool.com and it looks like I'll need at least an attic antenna...

Just try any uhf/vhf antenna from somewhere with a return policy.

How do I get WRNN-DT from Hempstead?
You have some sort of love for infomercials?
WRNN's signal does NOT reach Nassau County. The transmitter is in upstate Kingston, NY.

To see what you can see at home, use http://www.antennaweb.org

You have some sort of love for infomercials?
WRNN's signal does NOT reach Nassau County. The transmitter is in upstate Kingston, NY.

To see what you can see at home, use http://www.antennaweb.org

WRNN-DT technically transmits from Newburgh even though it's licensed to Kingston but the point stands, it won't make it to Long Island.

My guess is that he wants to watch that Long Island-targeted newscast that WRNN has. Why they have that newscast and not one dedicated to the Kingston area, you know, where their licensed, I have no idea.

- Trip

WRNN-DT technically transmits from Newburgh even though it's licensed to Kingston but the point stands, it won't make it to Long Island.

My guess is that he wants to watch that Long Island-targeted newscast that WRNN has. Why they have that newscast and not one dedicated to the Kingston area, you know, where their licensed, I have no idea.

- Trip

I know why. It's because they're trying to get added as a "must-carry" for Cablevision customers in Long Island. There is a lawsuit pending on it, with WRNN claiming "ruin" if they don't get the new viewers.

That "Long Island Newscast" is a token attempt to show that they're "serving" Long Island.



http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6550887.html?q=WRNN

WASA-LP is on the air? I didn't know that. What're they airing?

- Trip

I think they are, although I could be wrong and it could be another station.

All I see on that channel (64) are informercials, all day, all night long.

I know why. It's because they're trying to get added as a "must-carry" for Cablevision customers in Long Island. There is a lawsuit pending on it, with WRNN claiming "ruin" if they don't get the new viewers.

That "Long Island Newscast" is a token attempt to show that they're "serving" Long Island.



http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6550887.html?q=WRNN

Yep, that's exactly the reason, and they are basically doing what WLNY did.

WLNY, even though it's way out east in Suffolk county is carried on NYC/NNJ cable systems and on DBS. There used to even be ads on the NYC subway for them.

I'm new to the forum and I've found lots of good information so far... However, I'm having trouble finding specific recommendations for antennas. Is there a quality indoor antenna (blue / violet) that will work for me? My details from antennaweb are below.


I hate antennaweb. They are seldom accurate.

Rather, where do you live and what do you live in (house, apartment, condo) and what are your outdoor antenna mounting options?

You have some sort of love for infomercials?[/url]

WRNN-DT3 carries the Funimation network if you're a fan of anime.

I believe they also carry religious (TBN) programming on 48.2.

I'm somewhat surprised WLNY and WRNN haven't made some kind of simulcasting deal happen. WRNN on 55-2 and WLNY on 62-2 (in place of the redundant TBN). You'd think they'd see the mutual benefit of such a deal.

Granted, I know sometimes competitors like that aren't in a hurry to make deals, but it seems like it'd make sense in my head.

- Trip

Yep, that's exactly the reason, and they are basically doing what WLNY did.

WLNY, even though it's way out east in Suffolk county is carried on NYC/NNJ cable systems and on DBS. There used to even be ads on the NYC subway for them.

Speaking of WLNY, I wonder why the separate WLNY feed without the first-run syndicated programming (known in the TV listings at the time as WLNY-M) was dropped a few years ago? I thought there was some FCC rule about importing a station with the same syndicated programming.

When I had a roof mounted UHF antenna in my old house I used to receive WLNY's over the air analog signal quite well in Rockland County, NY. They had a very good signal on channel 55.

I used to get a very faint snowy signal of theirs here in New Britain, CT. Same with channel 67 of Smithtown, NY. I never did get anything from channel 68 of Newark, NJ though. As for digital, the only out-of-state signal I've ever received was the ION station of the Providence, RI market. That's only because their transmitter isn't terribly far from the Connecticut state line.

When I had a roof mounted UHF antenna in my old house I used to receive WLNY's over the air analog signal quite well in Rockland County, NY. They had a very good signal on channel 55.

Taking into account the elevation, Some parts of Rockland county to L.I. are pretty much a clear shot over the water.

I'm somewhat surprised WLNY and WRNN haven't made some kind of simulcasting deal happen. WRNN on 55-2 and WLNY on 62-2 (in place of the redundant TBN). You'd think they'd see the mutual benefit of such a deal.

Granted, I know sometimes competitors like that aren't in a hurry to make deals, but it seems like it'd make sense in my head.

- Trip


because those networks like many others depend on cable carriage for viewers not over the air!

I hate antennaweb. They are seldom accurate.

Rather, where do you live and what do you live in (house, apartment, condo) and what are your outdoor antenna mounting options?

do u honestly think antennaweb or any other site can give u a completely accurate listing unless they do a site survey in every address in america? use it as a guideline of what you might be able to receive.

because those networks like many others depend on cable carriage for viewers not over the air!

In a poor economic situation where people are trying to save money and reduce their expenditures, pay-for TV is one of the first things to go. Being an option when people start putting up antennas is a good thing.

do u honestly think antennaweb or any other site can give u a completely accurate listing unless they do a site survey in every address in america? use it as a guideline of what you might be able to receive.

Antennaweb changed their algorithm a few years back and they became very inaccurate. Nowadays, the best site for this sort of thing is probably TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/). I've found it to be amazingly accurate for every location I've tried. Any mistakes I've seen TV Fool make are caused by mistakes in the FCC's database (and there are many of those).

- Trip

do u honestly think antennaweb or any other site can give u a completely accurate listing unless they do a site survey in every address in america? use it as a guideline of what you might be able to receive.

A completely accurate assessment? No. But you can get a "ballpark" estimate, and antennaweb isn't even good at that.

As for having to do a site survey of every address in America, you don't need to do that. The USGS has done most of that legwork for us, and with modern terrain modeling software you can accurately determine what has a chance of being received and what can't be. With UHF (and VHF) signals that rely on line of sight propagation and diffraction for reliable propagation, it is very easy to predict how much signal makes it where and how much doesn't.

Try TVFool.com and you'll be pleasantly surprised. Its estimate was far closer to what CEA's antennaweb.org gave me.

because those networks like many others depend on cable carriage for viewers not over the air!

If a station is receivable over the air at the cable headend, there's a stronger case for it to be forced by the FCC to be carried by the cable company. These days that's important when cable companies are struggling to shave off channels they don't want to have to carry.

WRNN-DT3 carries the Funimation network if you're a fan of anime.

Yup.

BTW, does cablevision or any cable/sat provider carry the WRNN subchannels?

Yup.

BTW, does cablevision or any cable/sat provider carry the WRNN subchannels?

Cablevision definitely does not.

hmmm...

http://www.rnntv.com/Global/category.asp?C=98564&nav=menu566_11_5