hmmm...

http://www.rnntv.com/Global/category.asp?C=98564&nav=menu566_11_5


Yes, they carry the main channel, but I know as a Cablevision subscriber, they don't carry the subs.

Yup.

BTW, does cablevision or any cable/sat provider carry the WRNN subchannels?

I don't even see the main channel on my cable system (Service Electric) even though WRNN-DT OTA is strong here.

Antennaweb changed their algorithm a few years back and they became very inaccurate. Nowadays, the best site for this sort of thing is probably TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/). I've found it to be amazingly accurate for every location I've tried. Any mistakes I've seen TV Fool make are caused by mistakes in the FCC's database (and there are many of those).


I don't find TV Fool that accurate either. It says that I could get all the New York channels green no problems with a indoor antenna (channel 13 for example), yet it shows WFME channel 29 as yellow saying that I would have problems picking up that waste of space station and I would need a roof antenna. By now you know it is the opposite as I have trouble getting New York stations and I get that waste of space channel the strongest with no problems but I am not going to get into that again.

I don't find TV Fool that accurate either. It says that I could get all the New York channels green no problems with a indoor antenna (channel 13 for example), yet it shows WFME channel 29 as yellow saying that I would have problems picking up that waste of space station and I would need a roof antenna. By now you know it is the opposite as I have trouble getting New York stations and I get that waste of space channel the strongest with no problems but I am not going to get into that again.

TV Fool has data on terrain, and can't take into account multipath from buildings. Living in Brooklyn, I'd imagine that as a huge problem and there's nothing I can think of that TV Fool can really do to fix that.

- Trip

TV Fool has data on terrain, and can't take into account multipath from buildings. Living in Brooklyn, I'd imagine that as a huge problem and there's nothing I can think of that TV Fool can really do to fix that.

- Trip

Remember too that reddice is using an indoor antenna. There isn't a website out there that can accurately take into account how your indoor antenna is oriented.

I don't find TV Fool that accurate either. It says that I could get all the New York channels green no problems with a indoor antenna (channel 13 for example), yet it shows WFME channel 29 as yellow saying that I would have problems picking up that waste of space station and I would need a roof antenna. By now you know it is the opposite as I have trouble getting New York stations and I get that waste of space channel the strongest with no problems but I am not going to get into that again.

When they say you can receive all of them with an indoor antenna, it is not guaranteed.

The fact that the antenna is indoors will cause your reception to vary quite widely, and no tool on earth can tell what your indoor antenna will or won't do.

I don't know if I forget to mention this but I live in a upstairs three floor brown house. Looking on my roof there are no tall buildings until you hit downtown. That is where my multipath is coming from because after that is a clear view to the ESB.

As for a reception update 2 I can get nothing anymore. I can pick up 5 and 7 stronger than I use to be able to. Especially 5 I can get four green bars. If I move the antenna I know I can pull in five green bars. 4 I can get good on somedays than others but it still is not as good as it was during the Olympics. 9 I was able to get briefly a couple of days ago but now I still can't lock in a signal. It use to be one of my strongest station last month. 11 I am able to at least get three yellow bars. 13 I never once got a blimp ever. 31 I got very weak once. 41 I never got anything. 47 even gets week on certain days and that station is in NJ. 68 I can get certain days but most of the time is weak.

That is my update on OTA reception.

Reddice -
Could you give us the location of a major intersecton near your home ? We want to run a test truck out there to capture signal levels and other pertinent data. Thanks

Reddice -
Could you give us the location of a major intersecton near your home ? We want to run a test truck out there to capture signal levels and other pertinent data. Thanks

I live on Hoyt Street between Douglas and Degraw Street.

Reception is weaker today. What really gets on my nerves is that I leave my TV on a New York station and its strong and then the next day it becomes a pixelated mess.

Analog Test Shutoffs Coming to NY, LA, DC

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68576

Thirteen stations in the largest TV market in the nation, the New York DMA, will run a two-minute simulated shutdown of their analog signals next Tuesday, Oct. 28.

I don't see any specifics for LA or DC, despite the title.

Tests like these may not be that comprehensive, but it's much better than the current approach (PSA's), which probably leaves tens of thousands of households unsure if they need to do anything.

One of the things that some of the stations need to do is tell the viewer that they'll need to do a rescan on 2/17/09, because their digital RF signal is moving to another position. Otherwise some will wake up, turn on their sets and see the following:

WCBS-DT - No signal (They will have moved from 56 to 33)

WABC-DT - No signal (They will have moved from 45 back to 7)

WPIX-DT - Will see programming from WCBS (They will have moved from 33, which will have WCBS programing, back to 11)

WNET-DT - No signal (will have moved from 61 back to 13)

WPXN-DT - No signal (will have moved from 30 back to 31)

I'm not sure what's the easiest way to explain it to people without getting the "deer in the headlights look", but it's something that should be done.

Analog Test Shutoffs Coming to NY, LA, DC

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68576



I don't see any specifics for LA or DC, despite the title.

Tests like these may not be that comprehensive, but it's much better than the current approach (PSA's), which probably leaves tens of thousands of households unsure if they need to do anything.

I wish they'd shut off WMBC analog. It would give me a chance to see how my preamp performs without WMBC's strong and close signal overloading it.

Finally Universal Sports channel 04-04 had something on worth watching, international Hockey.

What do you make of this, the digital tv in my room, kitchen using a dtvpal and upstairs also using a dtvpal can pickup channel 05 but my sisters upstairs hdtv a room away can't pick up channel 05. It's the same HDTV i have downstaires and even with a different antenna it still could not pick up channel 05 but does get channel 09-01,02.

Finally Universal Sports channel 04-03 had something on worth watching, international Hockey.

What do you make of this, the digital tv in my room, kitchen using a dtvpal and upstairs also using a dtvpal can pickup channel 05 but my sisters upstairs hdtv a room away can't pick up channel 05. It's the same HDTV i have downstaires and even with a different antenna it still could not pick up channel 05 but does get channel 09-01,02.

Are you located in NJ? 5's antenna pattern doesn't do very well for NJ because of the interference issues with WMCN in Atlantic city.

Speaking of that Universal Sports channel, if your the city's marathon watcher you can watch it live on Nov 2nd. That makes it worth it.

Are you located in NJ? 5's antenna pattern doesn't do very well for NJ because of the interference issues with WMCN in Atlantic city.

no, I'm in NY 14 miles away from NY city on long island. She is using Phillips amplified rabbit ears and the other antenna we tried was a monoprice which I'm using in the kitchen and downstairs bedroom and the other TV upstairs is simply rabbit ears.

humm

Are you located in NJ? 5's antenna pattern doesn't do very well for NJ because of the interference issues with WMCN in Atlantic city.

I'm in Brick nj and WNYW's signal is good with no issues. It's the most stable of any of them.

I'm in Brick nj and WNYW's signal is good with no issues. It's the most stable of any of them.

It depends on where in NJ. Where I am they are very low.

I live on Hoyt Street between Douglas and Degraw Street.
NYDTVGeeks:
Would you consider testing out Ave R and East 17 Street vicinity - 11229 zip while you are out in Bklyn? This is about 10 miles from ESB.

I also am in an appt bldg, a Sr with no budget for cable, & no rooftop access. afaik, all the others in my bldg use cablevision for years & aren't bothering with ota. I bought the Zenith with analog pass-through Digital reception box & am using it with the RS-UFO. (also have a RS-Delta, which isn't amped & also got some reception, in reserve)

I know, I know, everyone insists multi-path "has to be" my issue, BUT (as someone here said, who should I believe, him -- the expert -- or the evidence of my own eyes?) I get almost zero reception unless & until I use the UFO's amp on 3 (its highest setting. & yes, then at times it freezes, the bar moves... but that beats zero reception hands down.) which is why I kept looking till I found the UFO, which on occasion is great! instead of settling for the Delta's more spotty reception. Am doing OK with analog stations reception using the RS-UFO on the pass-through. The digital reception is all over the place, constantly changing & sometimes completely unavailable! I would like to think it will all straighten out come Feb. If not, I supppose I'll look into a directional antenna then, but if I'm not mistaken, the silver sensors won't get me 7 or 13.

Anyway, if you can, I'd appreciate your feedback on my neighborhood. You may not see me posting back for a while, I've got some medical tests scheduled for the next few days, but I will follow up as soon as I next get to my computer.

NYDTVGeeks:
Would you consider testing out Ave R and East 17 Street vicinity - 11229 zip while you are out in Bklyn? This is about 10 miles from ESB.

I also am in an appt bldg, a Sr with no budget for cable, & no rooftop access. afaik, all the others in my bldg use cablevision for years & aren't bothering with ota. I bought the Zenith with analog pass-through Digital reception box & am using it with the RS-UFO. (also have a RS-Delta, which isn't amped & also got some reception, in reserve)

I know, I know, everyone insists multi-path "has to be" my issue, BUT (as someone here said, who should I believe, him -- the expert -- or the evidence of my own eyes?) I get almost zero reception unless & until I use the UFO's amp on 3 (its highest setting. & yes, then at times it freezes, the bar moves... but that beats zero reception hands down.) which is why I kept looking till I found the UFO, which on occasion is great! instead of settling for the Delta's more spotty reception. Am doing OK with analog stations reception using the RS-UFO on the pass-through. The digital reception is all over the place, constantly changing & sometimes completely unavailable! I would like to think it will all straighten out come Feb. If not, I supppose I'll look into a directional antenna then, but if I'm not mistaken, the silver sensors won't get me 7 or 13.

Anyway, if you can, I'd appreciate your feedback on my neighborhood. You may not see me posting back for a while, I've got some medical tests scheduled for the next few days, but I will follow up as soon as I next get to my computer.

It has to be multipath, because you are only a few miles from the transmitter.

It has to be multipath, because you are only a few miles from the transmitter.

Sorry to repeat this, but there are clearly issues other than multipath with reception of OTA digital channels in Brooklyn. I am in Boerum Hill (11217) and have a directional rooftop antenna. I do see evidence of multipath on my analog reception. However, in early July, I used to get reception of 2.x,4.x.5.x,7.x.9.x,11.x,and 13.x (as well as other minor digital channels). Then suddenly every disappeared except 5.x (apparently due to work on the ESB transmitters). By the end of July, I also started getting 4.x and 11.x again. Now, similar to what reddice reports, I get 5.x reliably and 7.x, 4.x, and 11.x okay but with enough freeze ups to be annoying. 5.1 is about the only station that I can watch in digital; for everything else I usually watch the analog channels. As the transition date approaches, I am starting to get a little concerned that the networks are not that interested in fixing the signal in Brooklyn.

On this thread, it has been mentioned that there is a 'fill-in' transmitter that is supposed to broadcast the stations that use the Combiner antenna (2,4,7,9,11,13 I think) to Brooklyn. If that is the case, it certainly seems that it is not working properly. Could it be that it has been optimized for the post transition frequencies? (on that note, it would sure be nice if in addition to doing a test with a simulated shutoff of analog, they would actually turn on post-transition digital perhaps for an hour or so (long enough to program in the new channels) in the middle of the night so we could really see what to expect next Feb 17 - I am sure analog viewers could stand to miss one hour of the nightly infomercials :))

According to an excellent engineering source, the ESB 82nd Floor fill-in S.E. antenna system is there to help reception now for the Combiner stations, not just for the post-transition.

Any chance that work is still ongoing? Reception in Fairfield County for 2, 4, 7, 9 and 11 has been poor for a couple of weeks now. This is after an improvement seen a couple of weeks after the Olympics. If things don't improve by transition I may have to look into paytv again and my options in that area are not good.

Has there been anything new as respects the soft analog shut-off test scheduled for tonight? I checked a few broadcaster's websites and didn't see any updates on this.

I believe it's 5:45 p.m. this evening.

I believe it's 5:45 p.m. this evening.

The link (http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/68576) posted recently in this thread says 5:59 tonight. Does not sound like it will be of any interest to those of us that already know about the transition and really want to know why the digital signals are so lousy.

SnellKrell - can you check with your excellent engineering source to find out the status of the digital transmitters on the ESB? Are they still making changes or are they pretty much ready (other than frequency changes) for post transition? 13.x is obviously broadcasting at low power. Are the other combiner stations also using less than full power? Thanks.

WABC-DT is advertising 5:45.

Sorry, engineering source not available!

My reception of Channel 13 has never been stronger.

Don't fall into the trap that if your reception is poor, that doesn't mean everyone's
is that way!

agreed with reception of 13.1-DTV. I don't know if they are broadcasting at full power or not but my signal strength meter now reads 100% for the first time.

I believe that all the Combiner stations are at full power.

Realize that a lot of work is being done on ESB in preparation for the changeover.

Pretty soon, because of weather, the only work that needs to be done will be solely indoors.

WCBS said 5:58pm is when their test is.

This pdf says 5:59:

https://www.ntiadtv.gov/docs/Analog_Shut-off_Test_List.pdf

WABC-DT is advertising 5:45.

Sorry, engineering source not available!

My reception of Channel 13 has never been stronger.

Don't fall into the trap that if your reception is poor, that doesn't mean everyone's
is that way!

Thanks for checking. If you can try again later that would be great.

I don't assume everyone's reception is lousy. But there is evidence that transmission to Brooklyn is currently substandard. The fact that you are getting 13.x is in fact further evidence that something is wrong with transmission to Brooklyn. A few weeks ago, in the middle of the night, 13.x had the best signal I have ever received from any digital station (all the other combiner stations seemed to be down at the time) - so I know that it is indeed possible for there to be a strong 13.x signal here and for my system to tune it in. Now my tuner can't even detect the channel, much less lock into a clear picture. Of course it is always possible that my system is unstable, but since others in the area are reporting similar reception, I don't think it is likely.

I am just a little frustrated that at this fairly late date, that the transmission issues are not all resolved. It would be interesting to know if the reasons are technical or perhaps there might be some business strategies involved.

The statement: "The fact that you are getting 13.x is in fact further evidence that something is wrong with transmission to Brooklyn."

That make absolutely no sense!

The Combiner uses an omnidirectional pattern with filler arrays for additional coverage the N.W. and the S.E. The S.E. addition was specifically installed to aid reception in Brooklyn and Queens. If the new array are not helping you, welcome to the real world of digital, UHF reception. Temperature, humidity (rain, snow) all change the effectiveness of transmission.

Things are in flux not just until 2/17/09, stations will continue to work on the ESB installations way into 2010!

How did the test go? How was the reception?

Those close to the transmitters who are experiencing multipath might try simply tipping their indoor antenna sideways. Indirect paths sometimes change polarization. The effect can be quite dramatic. While communicating on VHF in the city with a vertically polarized fixed station 35 miles distant I've found turning my handheld transceiver sideways can make the difference between communicating or listening to fuzz. This usually only works between tall buildings. When I used to drive into NYC I would remove my magnet mount rooftop antenna and throw it across the back seat in order to park in the garage. Communication with the same fixed station would improve quite a bit with the horizontally oriented antenna even though it was inside my car.

Channel 13 cannot test their post transition digital yet. There is no FCC mechanism to allow this plus they WNET will need hardware changes.

13.1 is currently still at low power as most on here know.

I managed to improve my reception quite a bit last night by adjusting my antenna about 40 degrees off of the exact transmission direction. I don't know why this works but whatever is being done alters the direction of my optimal signal reception widely. I have seen this happen before thankfully so I had an idea what might be happening. I'm grateful now that I put up a rotator. At first I thought it would be unecessary since I'm not changing direction to pull in CT locals but I guess they keep moving the ESB around the city. I figure it must be on the west side turnpike about now. :)

Those close to the transmitters who are experiencing multipath might try simply tipping their indoor antenna sideways. Indirect paths sometimes change polarization. The effect can be quite dramatic. While communicating on VHF in the city with a vertically polarized fixed station 35 miles distant I've found turning my handheld transceiver sideways can make the difference between communicating or listening to fuzz. This usually only works between tall buildings. When I used to drive into NYC I would remove my magnet mount rooftop antenna and throw it across the back seat in order to park in the garage. Communication with the same fixed station would improve quite a bit with the horizontally oriented antenna even though it was inside my car.

Channel 13 cannot test their post transition digital yet. There is no FCC mechanism to allow this plus they WNET will need hardware changes.

13.1 is currently still at low power as most on here know.

Just last week, I was able to improve my reception of 13.x simply by raising my roof-mounted antenna vertically, approximately 3 feet! Before, I was getting 2 bars of signal strength. After, I am getting 4-5 bars. My roof is 40 feet up, but I do not have a clear line of sight to the ESB.

Also, my antenna (an Antennas Direct V15) is connected to a 100-ft RJ6, a grounding block, a 25-ft RJ6, a 3-way splitter and a 3-ft RJ6, then to my Samsung LCD and EyeTV USB tuner.

BTW, the Samsung tuner SUCKS compared to the EyeTV.

How did the test go? How was the reception?

It made engadget and there's a video:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/10/29/video-new-york-city-conducts-analog-shutoff-drill/

last week abc did a test of their digital single, what was the test because i wasn't home for it

I live in Prospect Heights and have been getting excellent reception of OTA HD for over two years off of a basic Radio Shack U-75R UHF antenna pointed at ESB and mounted on the roof of my building (all signals usually 85-100% including 13.1.2 .3). My question is do I need to add a VHF antenna for the Feb. change or am I good to go? If I do need to change I would like to get something multi-directional that would give a shot at the Long Island stations as well. The test last week was no help to me because I don't think they were using the Feb. frequencies (specifically ABC, PIX, and NET) all of my signals were unchanged during the test. Any help or antenna recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks

There are many who are smarter than me on this board, but I believe you will surely need a VHF antenna come February b\c ABC, WPIX, and WNET will all be broadcasting on VHF (7, 11, 13).

The first thing I would do is to see if your current UHF antenna can currently receive analogue channels 7, 11 and 13. If they are received, even with a lot of ghosting, etc., who stand a very good chance of picking up those channels when they go digital.

Many UHF antennas will pick up high VHF frequencies.

I am 30 miles west from the NY transmitters. My roof top antenna picked up all of the NY stations including channel 13 analog clear w/o snow. When I tried to pick up the digital signals I only received 25.1, 25.2, 63.1 thru 63.5. I could not get any digital signal for the major stations. So I think many people will find that just because they got a very good analog signal doesn't mean they will get a digital signal at all.

Next I installed a roof top channel master 4228 digital antenna and 7777 preamp and I now receive 38 digital and hd channels. All of the NY and NJ channels including 4 PBS channels. While reception is not strong on some channels I expect the signal strength will be even better after February 2009. For example 13.1 is supposed to be much stronger.

Bottom line is a digital antenna and preamp can make a big difference for some number of people.

There is no such thing as a digital antenna!

An antenna is cut for various frequencies - such as VHF or UHF and a combination of the two.

The correct antenna will pick up analogue or digital - antennas don't recognize the difference!

Technically you are right but in reality since digital is not broadcast on the low VHF, and an antenna that will pick up mostly UHF and high VHF is digital signal ready I call it a digital antenna. The other reality is the existing antenna could pick up Analog UHF and VHF signals very well and not digital. Switching to the CM bowtie with the pre amp picked up all kinds of digital signals....hence I use the term.

Back to my point. Your assumption was wrong. There will be people who think that they can get digital just because they read from people like you that if you get a good analog signal you will get digital. That MAY be true but I am living proof that it is not a universal truth and it may actually be I am the rule and not the exception.

Just my $.02 on channel 13.

Something strange has been going on!

It was coming in strong during (30-60%) most of the year, but has deteriorated to the point that is now always unwatchable. We were away for the summer and since returning in September, it's been worse and worse.

I'm in Bayside with a CM outdoor UHF antenna in a third floor attic. I get everything else including NJ Public TV (50.1 and 50.2) NYC-TV (25.1) at 100%.

Most of the NYC area stations are sending the correct EST PSIP time. WPXN and WMBC are still one hour ahead. Did you wake up at 2 AM to set your clock back?

Yesterday I moved my RadioShack UFO antenna out of the closet and next to a window in my grandmothers room. I still can't get channel 2 but 4, 5 ,7 , 9 and 11 are stronger. 13 is still a lost cause. I don't even get a blimp out of that station. Even get stretched 25 stronger. 31 and 41 are still also a lost cause. The signal strength is still so sensitive. I have to have the antenna on top of a box and pointed right. If I move it just the slightest it goes from green to dropouts. Of course I still have no problems at all picking up that waste 29. Also 47 is easier to pick up. Go figure they are the furthest away (15 miles) and are the easiest to pick up.

That was yesterday. Who knows if the reception is better or worse today. But the closet thing was not improving my reception much so now it is next to a window pointing right.

Back to my point. Your assumption was wrong. There will be people who think that they can get digital just because they read from people like you that if you get a good analog signal you will get digital. That MAY be true but I am living proof that it is not a universal truth and it may actually be I am the rule and not the exception.
A key point is that many stations (WNET being the worst offender) are not currently broadcasting their digital signal at "full" strength. This could be due to equipment issues, electrical costs, or an executive decision. Once the analog broadcasts shut off, many of those reasons will go away or be resolved. Given that most digital broadcasts are co-located with the analogs, getting good analog reception is strongly indicative of good digital reception once the shutdown takes place, and possibly now.

That is the reason some (myself included) are putting up with less than ideal digital reception and waiting until the digital stations are being broadcast at full strength and new locations.

Plus digital 7, 11, & 13 will go back to their vhf frequencies. Don't know why 9 will lose theirs, but NJN is on 8.

Plus digital 7, 11, & 13 will go back to their vhf frequencies. Don't know why 9 will lose theirs, but NJN is on 8.

The reasons are, in order of importance:

WNJB-DT 8 (no longer an issue due to move to Times Square next year)
WTNH-DT 10
WBPH-DT 9
WEDH-DT 9

- Trip

The reasons are, in order of importance:

WNJB-DT 8 (no longer an issue due to move to Times Square next year)
WTNH-DT 10
WBPH-DT 9
WEDH-DT 9

- Trip

Which means that in technical terms, after 2/17/09 NJ will no longer have a commercial VHF station, since WWOR-DT's signal is on RF 38.

As of the transition, not having a commercial VHF station will not have the same meaning or impact that it once had.

As of the transition, not having a commercial VHF station will not have the same meaning or impact that it once had.

True. I was just thinking about all the angst the state went through in past decades regarding that issue.

I'm just saying the reception will be better when the frequencies get lower, especially 13.

I wonder that too. I can't wait to the day to see how 7, 11 and 13 come on after 2/17/2009. I don't know if the reception would be worse or better. I never got a digital high VHF station before. My antenna is ready because it can get low, high VHF and UHF.

The New Jersey VHF history is interesting.

Channel 13, Newark, going back to WATV, was designated commercial, as allocated by the Commission.

Eventually, 13 became non-commercial WNDT.

Malfeasance was the reason that the owner of WOR-TV lost its license and that
license was redesignated to Secaucus, NJ where it adopted an additional "W" for
its call letters.

I believe that all the Combiner stations are at full power.


Is WNET-DT on the combiner?

Yes!

Yes!

Interesting. Still can't get it here, even though I can get everything else.

Lowest power and highest channel allocation on the Combiner!

I can pick up WNET-DT fairly reliably down here in Monmouth County (07756), 37 miles due south of the ESB. As per my home theater PC software (Beyond TV), my Hauppauge tuner cards are typically showing a signal strength of "95." Of course, I have a monster of an antenna in the attic (Winegard HD 7698P) and a very low-noise pre-amp. Even so, I still get some dropouts during rainy weather like tonight.

I also pick up WNET reliably with my Winegard 7694P in my attic and a HDP 269 Preamp. Here in Bergen County, I pick it up reliably although if the weather is really bad, I may have an occasional drop-out or two but nothing too bad.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q97/rtrappert/Picture083.jpg

This is how I have my antenna setup. The signal is so sensitive that I have to put the antenna on two boxes in order to get channel 7. If I only put it on the one box I go from four to five strong bars to nothing.

2 I get nothing. 4 is three bars but every now and then it breaks up, very annoying. 5 is four green bars. 7 is the strongest and I am able to get four to five green bars peaked at over 80. 9 shows four green bars but every now and then it breaks up, very annoying. 11 is about four green bars. 13 is a lost cause, nothing. I check my signal strength on that channel and I don't even peak 10.

After I did a rescan I have:
4.1,4.2, 4.4 added
5.1,5.2 added
7.1,7.2,7.3 added
9.1,9.2 added
11.1,11.2 added
25.1,25.2 added
29.1-29.10 deleted and you all know why
47.1 added
That is all the channels I can get now. What worries me is how is 7, 11 and 13 going to come in at high VHF as channel 8 I can barely pull in one weak bar.
This is yesterday. Who knows how it is today? If the reception is bad today you know I will let you all know.

I can pick up WNET-DT fairly reliably down here in Monmouth County (07756), 37 miles due south of the ESB. As per my home theater PC software (Beyond TV), my Hauppauge tuner cards are typically showing a signal strength of "95." Of course, I have a monster of an antenna in the attic (Winegard HD 7698P) and a very low-noise pre-amp. Even so, I still get some dropouts during rainy weather like tonight.

I also pick up WNET reliably with my Winegard 7694P in my attic and a HDP 269 Preamp. Here in Bergen County, I pick it up reliably although if the weather is really bad, I may have an occasional drop-out or two but nothing too bad.

Yeah well I live in Sussex county, 48 miles as the crow flies from the ESB. I also live behind hamburg mountain which greatly attenuates the signal. It's no Bergen or Monmouth county, that's for sure!

As of this morning I can now receive;
WFME's HD material (all 10 channels. Many audio only)

WNJM (channel 50) HD 1 & 2
WCBS, WNBC 4.1, 4.2, 4.4, WNYW 5.1, 5.2, WABC 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, WWOR 9.1, 9.2, WPIX11.1, 11.2, WNYE 25.1, 25.2, WPXN, 31/1, 31.2, 31.3, 31.4, 31.5, WXTV, 41.1, WNJU, 47.1, WMBC, 61.1, 61.2, 61.3, 61.4, 61.5, but no more WNET. I also receive a handful of low powered analog stations, channel 6, 17, 32, 35 & 39. I am 25 miles north of Manhattan, on the Jersey side of the Hudson.

I am surprised many of you can get WCBS Channel 2. I can't get anything on that channel. I can only peak it at about 20. A couple of months ago I was able to get that channel but it was weak but now I can't get anything. It is a pity because it has the best picture since it broadcasts in 1080i and it does not have any of those useless sub channels which I am discovering are really a waste and cause the main channel to look worse.

WNBC is also 1080i but I agree with you. WCBS has far and away the best video. 60 minutes in HD is visually impressive.

I am surprised many of you can get WCBS Channel 2. I can't get anything on that channel. I can only peak it at about 20. A couple of months ago I was able to get that channel but it was weak but now I can't get anything. It is a pity because it has the best picture since it broadcasts in 1080i and it does not have any of those useless sub channels which I am discovering are really a waste and cause the main channel to look worse.

I'm 48 miles away and it comes in just fine.

Just because a station broadcasts in 1080I/720P or digital does not mean that what it is broadcasting was videoed using HD or even digital cameras. CBS has many shows that are not videoed using HD cameras. Ditto NBC and the other stations. There are 2 parts to the equation. Using HD cameras and broadcasting in HD. Most of the stations and their programming are not at 100% with both parts. There may even be differences in the quality of the video based on the quality of the HD cameras being used.

The Amazing race with all of the great scenery would be a natural for using HD cameras but guess what....they did not want to spend the money. Meanwhile lots of other shows on CBS that don't have great scenery are using HD cameras...go figure.

The Amazing race with all of the great scenery would be a natural for using HD cameras but guess what....they did not want to spend the money. Meanwhile lots of other shows on CBS that don't have great scenery are using HD cameras...go figure.

I was led to believe that the Amazing Race is not in HD because they are forced to work with local crews in some of the countries they visit, and they do not have the requisite HD facilities.

This is what I found on the NET:

CBS' Amazing Race: Still Not In HD
The show's producer says it's not a priority.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (August 19, 2008) -- CBS' The Amazing Race will begin its 13th season next month, but it will still not be produced in High-Definition.

That's according to an article by the Associated Press.

Amazing Race fans were hopeful that the network would begin airing the reality/adventure show in high-def this year after announcing earlier this year that Survivor would be in HD this fall.

However, Amazing Race executive producer Bertram van Munster tells the AP that CBS still hasn't decided on whether to shoot the program in HD.

With the program's season debut just six weeks away (September 28), it seems safe to say that this season will not be in high-def. (The season has already been filmed; van Munster is now scouting venues for a 14th season.)

"I don't think it's a priority," van Munster said of the network's stance towards switching the program to HD.

Since you are so far out I would like to know what your OTA setup is as far as antenna, amp etc...

Also the stations you get and the reception levels.

Have you posted that somewhere on this forum?

I'm in Morris County in the Dover/Randoph area about 30 miles from NY.

Since you are so far out I would like to know what your OTA setup is as far as antenna, amp etc...

Also the stations you get and the reception levels.

Have you posted that somewhere on this forum?

I'm in Morris County in the Dover/Randoph area about 30 miles from NY.

I have posted it before, but here it is again for reference.

I'm a ham radio operator, so my TV antenna is on one of my ham radio towers. Approximate height is 70ft.

The antenna is a CM4228, and I am using an antennacraft permacolor 10G212 amplifier, 30dB variable.

I get everything reliably from the ESB except WNYW-DT and WNET-DT. Signal levels are 70s and 80s, with WNBC-DT in the 90s. No chance of WLIW or WLNY of course. They're simply too far. I also get WCAU-DT and KYW-DT from philly when there's good tropo. I haven't tried aiming the antenna there to see what I get, but there's a good chance I'll get the philly stations.

I also get WRNN-DT and WTBY-DT which broadcast from upstate NY, and WMBC-DT and WFME-DT.

FYI - WWOR (DTV 9-1 & 9-2) is completely down as of 9:00 AM today. Not a big deal though b\c you can watch the same programs on 5-1 & 5-2.

5-2 is not being received by me.

WWOR-DT back!

Picked up a Phillips indoor antenna on clearance for $10 (75% off ) at Target. I've had trouble getting CBS (2-1)for some time using an old outdoor combo (vhf/uhf) antenna but I can usually get 4,5,7, 9, 11 and their subchannels with occasional dropouts from time to time, so I'd figure I'd give it a shot. Put the Phillips in my bay window on the 2nd floor and 2-1 comes in clearly, but the only other channel of the above I can get is 4. On channels other than 2, signal strength is stronger with the outdoor antenna than the Phillips, but not by an overwhelming amount for the one common channel(4). Is that strange or what?

i'm 13 miles from nyc and get all the major channels fine. i'm using a monoprice indoor/outdoor HD antenna on my bed room wall and also get 13-01-02-03, 21-01-02-03-04(sometimes), 25-01-02, 31-01-02-03-04, 41-01, 50-01-02-03.

Then I don't get it that I am only 4 miles away and channel 2 I can only peak it at 20 and channel 13 I can only peak at 10. Channel 4 is not that strong either I can only get 3 yellow bars. I peak it at 60 but it keeps dropping out randomly which is very annoying to try to watch. Channels 5 and 7 are the strongest peaking them at 85. Channels 9 and 11 are stronger since I moved the antenna. I can usually peak them at around 70 but even though channel 9 shows strong it sometimes just breaks up and keeps dropping signal for no reasons.

WNYW-DT has (finally) debuted the 10:00 news in HD!

WNYW-DT has (finally) debuted the 10:00 news in HD!

About time. I never understood why the news was in SD but the aero shots in in HD.

The "aero shots" are from a rented helicopter featuring HD equipment.

Rupert all along has played down the value and the investment in HD.

Just remember that when other networks had started to present some NFL games in HD,
Fox was doing its phony Wide Screen, SD broadcasts.

Tonight's local news oddly included local studio generated graphics in SD.

What 5 is doing is what others have done a combination of HD and SD - since 5 is so late producing in HD, I had expected a greater use of HD vs. the competition.

And Fox still does SD Widescreen on many of their shows.

Just because a station broadcasts in 1080I/720P or digital does not mean that what it is broadcasting was videoed using HD or even digital cameras. CBS has many shows that are not videoed using HD cameras. Ditto NBC and the other stations. There are 2 parts to the equation. Using HD cameras and broadcasting in HD. Most of the stations and their programming are not at 100% with both parts. There may even be differences in the quality of the video based on the quality of the HD cameras being used.

The Amazing race with all of the great scenery would be a natural for using HD cameras but guess what....they did not want to spend the money. Meanwhile lots of other shows on CBS that don't have great scenery are using HD cameras...go figure.

Yes, I am well aware of these facts. However, I've watched live sports being broadcast in HD on WNBC and compared the video image I get while watching live sports on WCBS and the image on WCBS is far superior, in my opinion. 60 Minutes which is being produced using new facilities at the BC on 57th street has stunning video. It's as close to the "looking through a pane of glass" as I've seen on broadcast television. I am of course talking about images received over the air and not through a third party source. I would guess that with WCBS being co-located with the net and the fact that they aren't downlinking the net feed via satellite, that the image I receive at home is about as good as its going to get, at least as far as current HD technology is concerned. I am also guessing that they deliver their signal to Empire over fiber.

Then I don't get it that I am only 4 miles away and channel 2 I can only peak it at 20 and channel 13 I can only peak at 10. Channel 4 is not that strong either I can only get 3 yellow bars. I peak it at 60 but it keeps dropping out randomly which is very annoying to try to watch. Channels 5 and 7 are the strongest peaking them at 85. Channels 9 and 11 are stronger since I moved the antenna. I can usually peak them at around 70 but even though channel 9 shows strong it sometimes just breaks up and keeps dropping signal for no reasons.

Reddice, I live 25 miles away in LI and I pick up every station (except PBS) with a set of rabbit ears/ UHF bowtie laying inside my attic with about 50 feet RG6 going to the TV. I had to tweak it a bit to find a sweet spot. My point is try a different antenna, experiment and make sure you have RG6 going to the TV. Anything less and it won't be able to handle bandwidth of upper UHF channels like 56.
Recently at work, I replaced RG59 that was feeding from our antenna on the roof down to a distribution closet because channels would cut in and out. Since replacing it, no more dropouts.

Yes, I am well aware of these facts. However, I've watched live sports being broadcast in HD on WNBC and compared the video image I get while watching live sports on WCBS and the image on WCBS is far superior, in my opinion. 60 Minutes which is being produced using new facilities at the BC on 57th street has stunning video. It's as close to the "looking through a pane of glass" as I've seen on broadcast television. I am of course talking about images received over the air and not through a third party source. I would guess that with WCBS being co-located with the net and the fact that they aren't downlinking the net feed via satellite, that the image I receive at home is about as good as its going to get, at least as far as current HD technology is concerned. I am also guessing that they deliver their signal to Empire over fiber.

Plus the fact that WCBS has no sub-channels taking away bandwidth from the main channel.

My 2 cents ...I want to mention that even though 2 channels are broadcasting in HD (in your case you compared CBS and NBC) that does not mean the cameras being used on the field are the same quality etc.. I really don't think bandwith has anything to do with it. With digital they send out a HD digital signal 1080i or 720p and you either receive it or you don't. End of story. The quality of the picture will be affected by the cameras, lighting and other factors.

You must have a digital camera. If you do have one, you know that the quality of the pictures you take are affected by a number of variables. The same camera will give you different results based on those variables. You also know that if you spend a few more bucks on a new one you could get even better results.

It's difficult and dangerous to speak in generalities - but...

Let's not compare professional cameras used in television production with home digital cameras. The cameras used in network productions, yes will vary, but not to that big of an extent. Yes, lighting will affect the look of a picture.

The major difference comes down to bits. When you start taking away bits from HD to feed weather channels, news channels, etc., the HD picture pays the price.

As compression will undoubtedly improve, so will our pictures.

NBC viewers now pay a price by way of their affiliates providing sub-channels.

I really don't think bandwith has anything to do with it. With digital they send out a HD digital signal 1080i or 720p and you either receive it or you don't. End of story.

Then you think incorrectly. Very certainly bandwidth has everything to do with it. While there are certainly differences in cameras and production quality, the vast majority of quality issues with broadcasts like this are related to bandwidth. Camera quality will not cause macroblocking.

Fact is that the ATSC standard constrains bandwidth at 19.393 Mbps. WCBS chooses to dedicate almost all of that to their HD picture (not all, because some goes to audio, guide data, etc). WNBC, however, compresses their HD down and adds two subchannels, which means the HD gets less of that 19.393 Mbps. You simply cannot transmit the same amount of data using less bandwidth.

Compare:

WNBC: 12.3 Mbps
http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ny-nyc/47535-0_0.htm

WCBS: 16.44 Mbps (Dynamically changing, I think I saw it as high as 17.5)
http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ny-nyc/9610-0_0.htm

- Trip

Trip -

You said it and demonstrated it so well!

Thanks

NYDTVGeeks:
Would you consider testing out Ave R and East 17 Street vicinity - 11229 zip while you are out in Bklyn? This is about 10 miles from ESB.

<snip>
Anyway, if you can, I'd appreciate your feedback on my neighborhood. You may not see me posting back for a while, I've got some medical tests scheduled for the next few days, but I will follow up as soon as I next get to my computer.

Last nite I was watching abc 7 Dancing With the Stars digitally, with decent enough reception, for a change. Part way through, it just went black & 7.3 appeared in its place - I had done nothing. After tuning both the converter box & antenna, without getting anything abc except 7.3, I switched off the tuner & used the analog pass-through to watch what was left. Blurry, but there. What was that all about?

Digitally, I currently get 2 sporadically, 4 & 7 almost never, 5.1 & 2, 25 are decent, 9.1 & 2 & 11 occasionally come in, when they do, reception is adequate. 13 hasn't showed up yet. Was getting 50, now its gone. Even 47/ 68/ 29, which used to be strong -- though useless to me -- have gone off the radar, as has 31. On analog, I pulled in 2,4,5,7,9,11,13,25,31,49,50,68 -- with varying amts of static/noise depending. 7 once was my best bet for analog reception, the only dependable station, now it is iffy on analog.

I'm guessing all this is related to the changes they're putting into place before Feb. Just hope after that there's reception, for now every time I put it on it's wasting time re-scanning & re-positioning all over again for very poor results.

WNBC, however, compresses their HD down and adds two subchannels, which means the HD gets less of that 19.393 Mbps. You simply cannot transmit the same amount of data using less bandwidth.

- Trip

Exactly, who the hell wants to watch a 24hr weather channel when you can just go on the internet or watch the Weather Channel itself
And who wants to watch swimming, cycling or whatever else they put on the other sub.

As compression will undoubtedly improve, so will our pictures.



Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think the current compression (MPEG2) will be changing anytime soon.

My DirecTV's HD service has recently been udated from MPEG2 to MPEG4.

Not sure what the networks are now using to feed their affiliates.

I really see no difference between 02-01 and 04-01 even with the sub channels on 4. What i noticed the higher single metter readings on my tv the more defined the picture. Remeber none of these channels have gone full power yet and i'm guessing this prep phase is costing them pleanty to have both analog and digital feeds going so they aren't until 2009.

Both WCBS-DT and WNBC-DT are at their full authorized power.

Come the transition, both will remain on the current Combiner that they are now using.

The only change will be that WCBS-DT will move from Channel 56 using 349kW to Channel 33 using 284kW- different power, different frequency.

WNBC-DT will continue transmitting on Channel 28 with 200.2kW.

Snellkrell,

I agree with Dagger. You can throw out those stats about compression all you want. Fact is unless you can compare the exact, and I mean exact same programming being broadcast on each channel at the same time there is no scientific way to prove which is better.

Subjectively I also feel my channel 4.1 is slightly better than my 2.1 even though NBC has subchannels.

There were no stats about compression thrown out by me.

Have no idea what you're talking about.

The stats were ERP transmission output expressed in Watts.

That's all!

SnellKrell, if people don't want to listen to rational arguments that every broadcast professional would tell a person, then it's not worth arguing. As long as they're not broadcasting that incorrect information to others, don't worry yourself.

The very idea that a stronger digital signal provides "increased clarity" is completely wrong. Bitrates do not vary with power levels. Only pixelization from very borderline signals could even come close to explaining that argument. Same for the idea of 4-1 looking better than 2-1. In still images, sure, it's possible. In motion, though, there would be no comparison unless there was some issue with the source material on 2-1.

Thousands of engineers know these facts. There is no debate. There is only how you perceive the picture to be. If you perceive it as better, then that's fine and dandy. That doesn't make the picture any less degraded (in the case of the subchannels) or any sharper (in the case of the stronger signal).

- Trip

Both WCBS-DT and WNBC-DT are at their full authorized power.

Come the transition, both will remain on the current Combiner that they are now using.

The only change will be that WCBS-DT will move from Channel 56 using 349kW to Channel 33 using 284kW- different power, different frequency.

WNBC-DT will continue transmitting on Channel 28 with 200.2kW.

WCBS-DT is a lost cause. Can't get nothing. So if they are running at full power then why can't I get them. I have the antenna pointed in the same direction as all the other channels. Also WNBC-DT has been weaker the past few weeks. The reception was great during the Olympics so I think you are wrong. They were running at more power during the Olympics but now they are not.

Also if channel 13 actually broadcasted from Newark then I would have no problem picking them up. Stupid to say they are from Newark but not broadcast there.

Just to debunk what both of you have been saying about NBC having subchannels and CBS doesn't so CBS MUST have a better picture.

Last night I caught a Seinfeld episode being broadcast in HD 1080i. While this wasn't on CBS it does prove my point that CBS or any station for that matter can broadcast programming in HD that was NOT videoed with HD cameras. It will look good but not as good as it could look. Also just because CBS is using the full bandwigth does not mean they are sending true HD video recorded programming to our TV sets. There are lots of reruns on TV coming across with a HD 1080i or 720p signal that were not videoed with HD camera equipement. I bet to save money it is happening today too.

If you have a computer go to TV fool.Com You can key in your address and you will find out what you can get today and post Feb/2009.

You will also see that contrary to what some posters are saying here, there are some stations who will be increasing their signal strength post Feb/2009. I certainly expect to have more stations come in with better reception as a result of the numbers they gave me. I put a spreadsheet together with numbers for the reception I get today and what to expect after Feb/2009 and the improvements I should see are very nice!

It's not perfect but I found that it comes very close to reality.

Just to debunk what both of you have been saying about NBC having subchannels and CBS doesn't so CBS MUST have a better picture.

Last night I caught a Seinfeld episode being broadcast in HD 1080i. While this wasn't on CBS it does prove my point that CBS or any station for that matter can broadcast programming in HD that was NOT videoed with HD cameras. It will look good but not as good as it could look. Also just because CBS is using the full bandwigth does not mean they are sending true HD video recorded programming to our TV sets. There are lots of reruns on TV coming across with a HD 1080i or 720p signal that were not videoed with HD camera equipement. I bet to save money it is happening today too.

Stop putting words in people's mouths. Nobody here has said what you're claiming they said.

We're not talking about clarity, we're talking about pixelization. I in fact stated this:

While there are certainly differences in cameras and production quality, the vast majority of quality issues with broadcasts like this are related to bandwidth. Camera quality will not cause macroblocking.

So of course there can be differences in production equipment. Believe me, I've seen poorly-produced "HD" broadcasts. But overall, 99% of issues I've seen with quality are pixelization, and most of that is caused by bandwidth.

- Trip

Just to debunk what both of you have been saying about NBC having subchannels and CBS doesn't so CBS MUST have a better picture.

Last night I caught a Seinfeld episode being broadcast in HD 1080i. While this wasn't on CBS it does prove my point that CBS or any station for that matter can broadcast programming in HD that was NOT videoed with HD cameras. It will look good but not as good as it could look. Also just because CBS is using the full bandwigth does not mean they are sending true HD video recorded programming to our TV sets. There are lots of reruns on TV coming across with a HD 1080i or 720p signal that were not videoed with HD camera equipement. I bet to save money it is happening today too.

I'm not following your argument. I'm assuming you caught Seinfeld on TBS-HD. Seinfeld WAS recorded on "HD" equipment, in that it was captured on 35mm film. Sony has remastered the episodes. I haven't seen any of the other rerun stations carrying these "HD" episodes that are in 16:9 (and truly look great compared to the SD print copies). They did have to do some cropping to get the 16:9 aspect ratio, but I don't see anything in the episodes that are essential that are missing.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/03/seinfeld-goes-hd-on-tbs-hd/

So, now that you know, what does your rerun argument have to do with 1080i/CBS/NBC? I would say that CBS has the potential to look better than NBC/ABC given that it is full-bandwidth. Full-bandwidth means less necessity to compress. The question becomes at what level of compression is picture quality noticeably degraded?

There's a good wiki about DTV subchannels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_subchannel

Scroll down to the "Technical Considerations" section of the page.

All of that said, it's always garbage in, garbage out (gigo). No matter the bandwidth, if the original content looks terrible to begin with, it's going to remain that way. Whether a station transmits in 1080i or 720p makes no difference if the source material is poor.

IMO, videophiles absolutely hate sub channels, but normal users like me really don't care and will be more than happy with more content. Yes I have seen numerous instances of pixellation during olympics. But I have seen it during the baseball games in FOX5 and CW11 too which has just one subchannel. So it may be a lot do with the source material and the production quality too. I don't remember seeing any pixellations for high speed/action scenes in Heroes/knight rider (is it in NBC.. can't remember..) or any other HD episodes with lot of action content. And I have seen the same HD feed in couple of my friends house (having cablevision or Comcast). I have noticed much more pixellation in cable HD contents (barring few channels like HD Theater where there are hardly any action scenes) compared to my OTA setup. I haven't seen any satellite setup though, so can't comment on them. If cable cos can get away with so much compression without many users complaining, I'd say that NBC is lot better and I would rather have more channels with 2-4 pixellations in a day. And yes, people like me who rely on free OTA only (no satellite or cable), I really don't mind two weather channels braodcasing 24 hr weather. Yes, I have a HTPC and a laptop to check weather.com but its more convenient to switch on the TV before I start my morning commute and check the weather. Probably, they can better use the channels if they put 24 hr news in those subchannels with weather so that the subchannels can be made popular and advertisement worthy.

I agree with you and I think your comments support my original posts on this subject. Sienfeld was videoed in the 90's and surely the camera technology today is far better! I doubt that it was done with todays HD cameras. As you say 35MM analog technology. Not bad. But I suspect the video had to be processed to bring it to the digital world of today as you suggest. Also there are reruns of many other shows filmed in the 80s and 90s broadcast (yes on cable) in HD.

Also I think that if NBC felt the quality of their HD broadcasts were inferior fo CBS they would drop the compression and the subchannels.

I have both cablevision and OTA and the picture on both for like HD local channels and programming is very close. I can't really tell if one is better than the other.

I also agree with you. the subchannels may not be useful for many but is is nice to have the extra programming. I use them for weather and sometimes watch the sports.

Here's actually a very good article from Popular Mechanics (and a very easy read, too) that details HDTV and video compression. It's interesting to see that there are very few rules about its use (compression, that is). Note the methodology of using "statistical multiplexing", too, in the article.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4275063.html?page=1

One thing I had to laugh at, though, was the remark about "videophiles" hating subchannels. No one could possibly consider broadcast television --even at full DTV/HDTV bandwidth-- as anything approaching what a videophile would expect to see. The article above states that an uncompressed HDTV stream would require up to 52 times the data capacity allocated to a DTV channel!

Let's get serious and realistic here.

Watching OTA in HD is great but I think what most videophiles who get OTA want is HD and CONTENT! More channels with more GREAT programming! That takes priority in my mind over getting 1080p. Let's use the subchannels for real programs.

Anyone know why NBC and FOX could not broadcast the other channels they own on their sub channels? How about CNBC on 4.2, the Weather Channel on 4.3 and Fox News on 5.2? Could ABC put some programming it owns on its subchannels?

Wow! What an idea! Let's all lobby the networks!

One thing I had to laugh at, though, was the remark about "videophiles" hating subchannels. No one could possibly consider broadcast television --even at full DTV/HDTV bandwidth-- as anything approaching what a videophile would expect to see. The article above states that an uncompressed HDTV stream would require up to 52 times the data capacity allocated to a DTV channel!
Videophiles are known to be early adoptors of any technology in their quest for that "perfect picture". But it's difficult to satisfy them even with all the expensive setup and its a common human nature to find flaws in the setup and start searching for the next best. I am not saying its bad, this is how technology becomes mainstream, if they were not there, technology adoption would be slow and expensive to mainstream consumers. Now about picture quality I frequently hear that Blu-ray has the ultimate quality and next comes in OTA HDTV (okay there are some on-demand content with 1080p which may be better but is still disputed). Yes, theoretically OTA HDTV may be laughable (per the specs mentioned by you) to hard core videophiles, but to lot of uninitiated videophiles these may be the next best thing after Blu-Ray.
I have a friend, who had a perefect setup with the latest and greatest samsung 46" LCD TV (120Hz and all) with decent speakers (harman Kardon) and receivers (Onkyo top of the line). He was happy and content with his setup. But the minute he started reading different threads in avs, he became dissatisfied with his setup. He started to find flaws in his setup based on others people bragging on their systems spec and discussions you will see in other forums on this site. He now wishes that he will upgrade to "better setup" once he saves up more money. The point I am trying to make is: videophiles can brag about the specs and that "perfect picture" and "perfect sound". But human beings can distinguish the picture quality/sound quality difference to a certain limited level. After that it comes down to the spec/monster like marketing (I paid more, so it must be superior)/Exotic packaging (e.g. nitrogen filled cable).

Anyone know why NBC and FOX could not broadcast the other channels they own on their sub channels? How about CNBC on 4.2, the Weather Channel on 4.3 and Fox News on 5.2? Could ABC put some programming it owns on its subchannels?

Because they receive a fee from the cable/satellite companies for each subscriber, and would not be willing to jeopardize that money in order to make those channels available over the air.

I've seen several requests made specifically for MSNBC on NBC stations and a resounding "No" has come back from stations for exactly that reason.

- Trip

Boy is 11 screwed up.

First, no HD.

Now in HD but wrong audio!

Finally got the game's audio right.

Glad I can get NFL Network via DirecTV!

LOL so it's not just me!

What are they trying to say about the Jets with this soap opera crap overdub? :rolleyes:

Where was that audio from ?

Where was that audio from ?

From the CW show that normally airs at this time.

Because they receive a fee from the cable/satellite companies for each subscriber, and would not be willing to jeopardize that money in order to make those channels available over the air.

I've seen several requests made specifically for MSNBC on NBC stations and a resounding "No" has come back from stations for exactly that reason.

- Trip

well as more disposable income dries up and people cancel cable/satellite that may change. Any money them make from cable/satellite can easily be made up by advertisers on these Channel's.

Also MSNBC allows you to watch many of their prime time shows on downloadable podcasts and streaming on the show's website.

You may be right I don't know. But I also see that all cable shows (except for premium stuff) have commercial breaks. Lots of commercials in fact. When you think about the 100 or more cable channels that are being viewed, there is really lots of programming for people to watch. The actual number of people watching CNBC or Fox News is relatively small given all the options (channels/choices) they have to watch.

On the other hand you put CNBC or FoxNEWs on OTA sub channels and voila they are only competing with about 10 other channels for viewership. While the overall number of people viewing OTA is low the number that would watch CNBC might be quite good compared to those on Cable. The commercials being viewed would be the source of revenue just as it is for other OTA channels.

You start adding more good content to OTA and the audiance will grow and you can start getting more money for the commerical time. Plus if you add more competition to cable/Satellite they may have to lower fees to keep business.

I think it has merit....now if only the executives at NBC etc. could do some stretch thinking!

The thing to keep in mind, though, is that some of these fees are pretty high. As I recall, Fox News might get something like 75 cents per subscriber. Assuming I'm doing the math right (and that's a big assumption) if 75% of households (a low estimate, I found an article suggesting there are 111,000,000 households in the US) have cable/satellite and indirectly pay Fox for Fox news, that's roughly $62 million. With a slumping advertisement market, I'm not sure that Fox would be willing to part with a revenue stream like that in order to gain a relatively few OTA households, half of which likely won't watch Fox News anyway given its perceived bias.

- Trip

Trip -

I have heard that ESPN gets around $2.60 per sub.

The normal break between ad revenue and fees paid by cable/satellite is 50-50.

Trip and Snell,

I can see your points.

However if NBC and others are already broadcasting OTA and they also are getting payments from Cable/Sat companies who pay them to HAVE the right to add them to their packages then what problem would there be if NBC added MSNBC etc to thier OTA programming?

If people are already watching NBC OTA, or even if they get rid of cable to watch NBC OTA, to think that adding MSNBC would make any difference is questionable. Sure if OTA added more programming at some point people may get rid of Cable/Sat. However It will still be a drop in the bucket as many people simply want all of the movies, sports etc. that Cable/Sat provides.

Bottom line is I think it is a non issue and NO/LOW impact to Cable/Sat and major networks if the networks were to add some real programming to their sub channels.

I guess it is a moot point anyway as it isn't about to happen....but I think all of us OTA viewers wish they would do it.

Because they receive a fee from the cable/satellite companies for each subscriber, and would not be willing to jeopardize that money in order to make those channels available over the air.

I've seen several requests made specifically for MSNBC on NBC stations and a resounding "No" has come back from stations for exactly that reason.

- Trip

Not to mention there is also a lot of re-use and sharing of content to and from O&O's/affiliates and vice-versa. We tend to use a lot of affiliate air, especially when a major news event pops up out of the blue, it's easy to tap in to the affiliate coverage then send out our own news crews. Likewise the O&O's and affiliates use our air for major news events that we're already covering.

well as more disposable income dries up and people cancel cable/satellite that may change. Any money them make from cable/satellite can easily be made up by advertisers on these Channel's.

You may think that's true, but it really isn't.

As a viewer, the idea of cable nets on OTA sounds great. As a service provider, it is not so great. Broadcast only has one revenue stream (ads) while cable has two (ads + sub fees). All the broadcasters are owned by/own entities that have cable nets. The decline on their sheets is coming from broadcast. So, they aren't likely to put more of their content in that realm.
Might be a good idea for some new programmers who are having trouble getting cable carriage though.

For those who are proposing that broadcast stations use their sub-channels to transmit "cable networks," just ponder this -

Cable networks are barely regulated by the FCC - programs broadcast O-T-A are!

Ponder that one!

I don't need more news on the sub channels but I'm talking like ABC family and cartoon network kind of like Ion has broken up their channels into Ion main 31-01, 31-02 children programing, 31-03 improvement channels, 31-04 worship ugh. When milk is $4.00+ gallon and food going ever so higher something has to give and it will be pay TV. channels 04-04 Universal sports has plenty of viewers, i watch the hockey. We could very much start to see a ABC-1 and 2 develop in the feature. It's early but digital OTA TV i think has leveled the playing field and now the ball is in their court. Remember there was a scrambled movie channel in the 70's early 80's on VHF that did pretty good.

I don't need more news on the sub channels but I'm talking like ABC family and cartoon network kind of like Ion has broken up their channels into Ion main 31-01, 31-02 children programing, 31-03 improvement channels, 31-04 worship ugh. When milk is $4.00+ gallon and food going ever so higher something has to give and it will be pay TV. channels 04-04 Universal sports has plenty of viewers, i watch the hockey. We could very much start to see a ABC-1 and 2 develop in the feature. It's early but digital OTA TV i think has leveled the playing field and now the ball is in their court. Remember there was a scrambled movie channel in the 70's early 80's on VHF that did pretty good.

There is plenty of good children's programming OTA right now, but most of it is educational due to E/I requirements by the FCC.

After having problems receiving CBS-DT ( as well as occasional spotty reception on 4, 5, 7, 9,11 and their sub channels) with an old outdoor combo antenna on the rooftop, I took a chance on the $30 outdoor UHF only Radio Shack Model: U-75R. Stuck it in my attic and now receive a good CBS-DT signal in addition to 4, 5, 7, 9,11, 31 and their sub channels. If you read the reviews on the RS web site, it looks like others have had pretty good results with attic placement for those leery about going up on the roof.

After having problems receiving CBS-DT ( as well as occasional spotty reception on 4, 5, 7, 9,11 and their sub channels) with an old outdoor combo antenna on the rooftop, I took a chance on the $30 outdoor UHF only Radio Shack Model: U-75R. Stuck it in my attic and now receive a good CBS-DT signal in addition to 4, 5, 7, 9,11, 31 and their sub channels. If you read the reviews on the RS web site, it looks like others have had pretty good results with attic placement for those leery about going up on the roof.

That's wierd you have better reception on an indoor antenna than an outdoor one, but glad it worked out. We have a U-75R at work to pull in OTA stations about 18 miles away, and so far so good.

Ironically, I live 25 miles away from ESB, and I just have a $3.99 UHF bowtie nailed up to my rafters in the attic, and I pull in the same stations as you . Go figure.

WABC-DT appears to be doing work on the ESB - power way down, imagine the station has switched over to Conde Nast (4 Times Square) for transmission.

A lot of work must be going on at the ESB.

Only Combiner stations I'm currently getting are 4 and 7, and as I previously posted, I imagine that 7 is coming from Conde Nast.



At about 1 pm, stations back to "relative" normal readings - except for 7 - again, presume stations has been on Conde Nast -
and hasn't switched back to ESB.

Anyone have any idea as to what kind of work they currently are doing (or completed today) on the ESB? I wish there was a way to find out about these things in advance or even after the fact as many people rely on OTA transmission to receive their tv reception.

I have checked signal strengths at 2 locations within 1/2 mile of each other. Back in in Aug/Sept I got signals from CBS and ABC that were a lot stronger than they are today from both locations. Now they are about 11 to 15% weaker. Other stations are about the same or a tad weaker.

Something is going on.....perhaps with the economy down the tubes the stations are cutting power to save money....

I have checked signal strengths at 2 locations within 1/2 mile of each other. Back in in Aug/Sept I got signals from CBS and ABC that were a lot stronger than they are today from both locations. Now they are about 11 to 15% weaker. Other stations are about the same or a tad weaker.

Something is going on.....perhaps with the economy down the tubes the stations are cutting power to save money....

We haven't gotten that bad, yet.

The only stations in the area that have cut power because of budget problems have been those in the NJN group. They filed with the FCC about that matter - and it's public record.

WABC-DT is back on ESB!

They're back!

Work, once again, is being done on the ESB Combiner - power way, way down!

They're back!

Work, once again, is being done on the ESB Combiner - power way, way down!

Yeah. Must be: CBS-DT is down to one bar of signal strength. I usually get 4-5. WWOR-DT, WPIX-DT and WNET-DT are down to zero. Funnily enough, WNYW-DT is still way strong at 9 bars.

Does anyone know why channel 5 seems independent of the power fluctuations that affect the other channels -- are they NOT on the combiner?

Yes, because 5 is "independent."

It is not a part of the Combiner project and has its own antenna on the ESB - not shared as with the Combiner stations.

We're back on the Combiner - except for 7 which hasn't switched back yet from
Conde Nast to ESB.

I bought a Zenith DTT901 and hooked it up to my 21 inch CRT screen using a huge stationary (unmovable) on roof antenna. Without the Zenith I get all channels beautifully.

With the box, channel 2 (CBS) and channel 13 (WNET) do not come in at all.
I constantly get "no signal"?

I live in New York zip 11364.

Is my box broken?? I called Zenith and they said, they are working to get all channels by Feb...but i cannot return the box after 30 days.

I have 3 other tvs I need boxes for also coaxial connected to the roof antenna. I dont know if i should try an APEX (can get one at Best Buy..i think), or buy more Zeniths - hoping this will resolve around February.

Any NYers out there with this problem?

THANKS!

Come the changeover in February, WCBS-DT will be taking over UHF Channel 33, currently being used by WPIX-DT. It "might" be safe to assume that if you're receiving WPIX-DT without problem, WCBS-DT "should" come in alright.

Concerning WNET-DT - it will changing channels from UHF 61 to VHF 13. In addition, the station will be changing its position on the Empire State Building. It will be higher.

This should help you - I imagine your huge stationary antenna will receive both Hi-VHF and UHF.

What is your location - 11364 and how far from the Empiire State Buidling - guess is you don't have line-of-sight to the TV Mast.

According to the FCC data base, WPIX is running 160 Kw on channel 33 with a haat of 397 meters. WCBS will be running 284 Kw after the Feb switch on the same channel with an antenna at the same 397 meter height. WCBS also has a CP for 225 Kw on channel 33 at 519.1 meters. That I would guess is for the location of the WTC replacement antenna and it will be many years before that takes effect. Early this morning I was able to receive both channel 50 and WNET in HD in Rockland County. I can only assume due to band enhancement. What I never understood was why WPIX was assigned channel 33 instead of the current CBS channel. That way WCBS could have installed their permenant transmitter, running the legal 284 Kw and then only WPIX would have had to change in February.

When the assignments were first made, there was then no concept of the government reclaiming spectrum, which includes WCBS-DT's Channel 56.

What I never understood was why WPIX was assigned channel 33 instead of the current CBS channel. That way WCBS could have installed their permenant transmitter, running the legal 284 Kw and then only WPIX would have had to change in February.

1. FCC channel assignments were random. A computer program chose channels that would best replicate the analog contour. Because in a lot of places only very high UHFs were open enough to replicate, many low-VHFs with large coverage areas ended up on high channel numbers.

2. Originally, the FCC planned to make the final digital spectrum channels 7-59, so WCBS-DT would have been able to stay on 56. Stations whined and complained about losing channels 2-51 without realizing how awful they were, so the FCC changed it to 2-6. Nobody's laughing now.

- Trip

R.F. -

If you think CBS in New York is a bit strange, when Trip has a few hours he can tell you about the horrors concerning WBBM - CBS Chicago!

Also MSNBC allows you to watch many of their prime time shows on downloadable podcasts and streaming on the show's website.

I won't be downloading podcasts or streaming come 2009, when my ISP invokes a 5GB monthly cap on ADSL service.

2. Originally, the FCC planned to make the final digital spectrum channels 7-59, so WCBS-DT would have been able to stay on 56. Stations whined and complained about losing channels 2-6 without realizing how awful they were, so the FCC changed it to 2-51. Nobody's laughing now.


Made minor corrections to the above.

7-59 would have been so much better than what we are left with now. Core = 2-51? That's what makes me laugh. 52-59 are "slightly" more valuable than 2-6. Can we "un-auction" those? :rolleyes:

Wasn't the original plan to keep 14-69 and auction 2-13?

That's really weird, I edited my post hours ago, and it still shows 2-6. I tried editing it again now, and it brings up the corrected 2-51, even though it's still showing 2-6 when I save it for some reason.

The very original plan was 14-69 only, but the FCC's final plan was 7-59 since they wanted 60-69 for public safety and 7-13 proved to be usable.

- Trip

I won't be downloading podcasts or streaming come 2009, when my ISP invokes a 5GB monthly cap on ADSL service.

Well don't you have a choice of providers to choose from?

Tuned into "Live From Lincoln Center" on 13.1.

Audio is terrible!

Only 2.0, crackling sounds at times, and those times are way too often.

Switched to TWC feed - exactly the same thing.

Can't believe that 2.0 is all the producers wanted.

Noticed the audio sounding better - full and no clicks.

Checked my processor and instead of it indicating just "Dolby Digital" - it is now showing
"Dolby Pro-Logic II."

Obviously, something was very wrong, so a switch was made.

Trip and Snell,

I can see your points.

However if NBC and others are already broadcasting OTA and they also are getting payments from Cable/Sat companies who pay them to HAVE the right to add them to their packages then what problem would there be if NBC added MSNBC etc to thier OTA programming?

If people are already watching NBC OTA, or even if they get rid of cable to watch NBC OTA, to think that adding MSNBC would make any difference is questionable. Sure if OTA added more programming at some point people may get rid of Cable/Sat. However It will still be a drop in the bucket as many people simply want all of the movies, sports etc. that Cable/Sat provides.

Bottom line is I think it is a non issue and NO/LOW impact to Cable/Sat and major networks if the networks were to add some real programming to their sub channels.

I guess it is a moot point anyway as it isn't about to happen....but I think all of us OTA viewers wish they would do it.

I found it interesting that WNBC appears to have upgraded their studio....yet they are still framing for 4:3...and even more interestingly, in the vain of this post, they CONTINUE to ignore giving their OTA viewers the simple fact that they can tune into 4-2 for weather information (I.e. "stay here with us at NBC---don't tune to another station for news/info").

Instead, when I was watching the 6am news yesterday, Chris Cimino told viewers to tune into the Weather Channel on their local systems for weather updates....or was I just imagining that? I know the weather channel logo flashed up on the screen...and I could've sworn I heard the words "Weather Channel" and local cable system come out of his mouth.

So, I guess you just have to follow the $$$ signs in that equation then eh? :D

Of course stations are framing their pictures for 4.3 - the majority of viewers do not receive 16.9. Stations cannot and should not forget the composition of their audience.

Weather + is in God's waiting room. I believe it's a gonner come January.

GE, parent of NBC Universal, now owns a large piece of the Weather Channel and is that network's managing partner. Hence the shift from promoting Weather + to now pushing the Weather Channel.

Of course stations are framing their pictures for 4.3 - the majority of viewers do not receive 16.9. Stations cannot and should not forget the composition of their audience.

Weather + is in God's waiting room. I believe it's a gonner come January.

GE, parent of NBC Universal, now owns a large piece of the Weather Channel and is that network's managing partner. Hence the shift from promoting Weather + to now pushing the Weather Channel.

Trust me...I understand the logic for still framing for 4:3...but will this continue come 2/19/09? Even my wife said to me, "Why is the NBC logo still on the guy's lapel...and why does the scroll start over in the middle of the screen?"

As far as the weather plus dying a slow, eventual death...they never promoted the OTA aspect of this feed anyways. I NEVER recall hearing ANYONE on NBC say we have a few more subchannels available for you tools who are watching OTA. They ALWAYS said that weather plus was available on these channels on the following cable providers....again, they never promoted the feature for OTA users...so how important are "we"?

And I figured that NBC/GE had a stake in the weather channel. I cant' wait for that storyline to make it into "30 Rock"..... :D

2/18 will not be a magic date when the majority of the audience will be able to properly see and enjoy 16.9.

Most viewers will not want Wide Screen and have their overall picture shrink. This is especially true the smaller the screen size. Althought things are getting more aceptable - Letterboxing and Pillars continue to be anathema to the public

The framing that you dislike will be with us for a long while - that is, until the "vast" majority of the audience have Wide Screen sets.

they CONTINUE to ignore giving their OTA viewers the simple fact that they can tune into 4-2 for weather information (I.e. "stay here with us at NBC---don't tune to another station for news/info").

This reminds me of what happened in the LA area when we had those bad fires over the past weekend. ABC had to break away for a football game, but they said, please tune into ABC+ to continue watching coverage on the fires. They then listed the channel numbers on several cable providers, but completely neglected the presence of 7.2 ABC+ subchannel, which continued coverage on the fires.

Are the broadcasters hearts in this? I can't remember even one of the local broadcasters mentioning that they had an HD signal available OTA. Heaven forbid that viewers wouldn't go to cable or satellite to get such services! :rolleyes:

According to the ads, "Crazy" is not hooking up your HDTV to D*, but I've seen plenty of craziness by hooking up HDTV's to analog pay sources when free HD signals are readily available OTA.

This reminds me of what happened in the LA area when we had those bad fires over the past weekend. ABC had to break away for a football game, but they said, please tune into ABC+ to continue watching coverage on the fires. They then listed the channel numbers on several cable providers, but completely neglected the presence of 7.2 ABC+ subchannel, which continued coverage on the fires.


Almost the same scenario with WABC on Election night during the local cut-ins from the network coverage. Once they were about to go back to the network, they said their coverage would continue on WABC+, listed the cable systems that it was on, but never mentioned that it could be received OTA on digital 7.2.

All channels seem to be coming in pretty good for me now... except for 13. Channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 25 and 68 all have about 50-60% level, with channel 5 at 70-90%. However, channel 13 (I believe its on 61 frequency?) fluctuates at about 5-10%. Is this station even on? I've read a few reports of people getting 13, but not many. I don't think i've EVER seen channel 13 in the 3 years that i've been toying with OTA. I'm located in southern brooklyn.

Any idea when 13 will turn on the power so most of us can actually see it?

02/17/09.

- Trip

All channels seem to be coming in pretty good for me now... except for 13. Channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 25 and 68 all have about 50-60% level, with channel 5 at 70-90%. However, channel 13 (I believe its on 61 frequency?) fluctuates at about 5-10%. Is this station even on? I've read a few reports of people getting 13, but not many. I don't think i've EVER seen channel 13 in the 3 years that i've been toying with OTA. I'm located in southern brooklyn.

Any idea when 13 will turn on the power so most of us can actually see it?

Where I work, we have a Radio Shack U-75R on our 10 story building, 18 miles away from ESB, and I can get Channel 13 as well as the other channels. But at my house 25 miles away, I can't get channel 13 It is transmitting low power now but after Feb 2009 they should increase power.

I compared signal strength Friday night 11/21 here in Randolph 31 miles from the ESB to 11/11 and there was dramatic changes:
chn 11/1 11/21
2.1 65 82
4.1 69 81
5.1 77 81
7.1 77 82
9.1 51 72
11.1 62 80
13.1 29 29
25.1 72 84
31.1 65 81
50.1 73 91

That seems to be due to something on your end. 5.1 is on a separate antenna (still on ESB) and 50.1 is broadcasting from Montclair, NJ (next door to the MSU NJ transit station). I pass by the tower every day.

maybe the wind changed my antenna direction ever so slightly...i may need to get the ladder out and see if it is loose...

The dtv signals could be better because the leaves fell off the trees near your antenna. I would change nothing since the signals are better.

I still think it was the wind and it just happened to put my antenna in a slightly better position. Just to be sure I went outside with a compass and wrote down the heading as best I could see. If the antenna moves again I should be able to figure it out with my compass. Next chance I get I will climb the ladder and check to see if the antenna is loose.

I do have trees close by but the leaves were mostly gone by my 11/11 reading. I also did a 11/18 reading and the results were similar to 11/11 but I only did a few stations.

Actually, LenL, I wouldn't be so sure it was the wind. I'm down here in Monmouth County (just south of Asbury Park), and my reception seems to be MUCH better of late. I have a home theater PC (HTPC) for all of my over-the-air (OTA) reception, and I always used to have a pretty fair amount of errors on channels 2,4,5 and 7. This weekend I recorded some programs that always used to show several seconds worth of dropouts, and I had NONE. That NEVER happens!

Now, my situation is complicated by my HTPC software. The previous version had some bugs that were known to be a problem for OTA reception, and they just released a new version on Friday, so I don't know if my HTPC experience was improved by the new software or better transmissions.

I also need to consider the extreme cold that we've been experiencing of late -- that would drastically lower the humidity in the air, which is another big change from the prior week. The point is that when you go from 50 or 60 degrees F with 100% humidity to 25 F with 40% humidity, you're going to get better reception, at least for those of us on the fringe.

Rothe,

What you say makes sense to me. But it can't be the reason for the changes I saw. My mom is 1/2 mile away with the same antenna and amp and the same weather....her signal strength has NOT changed.

So it must be isolated to my location!

Have you taken into account the difference in tuners' sensitivity?

Snell,

This is true....she has an RCA Digital to Analog tuner feeding her anolog TV. While I am feeding the antenna to a SHARP HD TV. Not sure why my signal strength would change though while hers wouldn't.

Lately I have been having problems with channel 5. It shows four green bars and I peak it at about 75 but it randomly keeps dropping out. It will go from a strong signal to nothing and keep pixlating. It would do it at various times and it is very annoying. I don't want to hear that multipath baloney because it was fine last week. It started to do this a few days ago.

"I don't want to hear that multipath baloney..."

What more can be or needs to be said?

"I don't want to hear that multipath baloney..."

What more can be or needs to be said?

Clearly the signal Gods are angry. He must conduct the ritual of the Megahertz in order to recover his signal. :D

In all seriousness, unless others are reporting the same problem, it's almost certainly multipath.

Let me tell you a little story. Once upon a time, Trip went to college (and is still there) and attempted to use his antenna in his apartment. With a 1000 kW digital (and its 5000 kW analog counterpart) a mere 4 miles away, its signal reflected off of EVERYTHING. While Trip managed to stabilize the digital and eliminate the multipath-induced dropouts, the analog continues to show that the ghosts change and move while walking around the room. When the wind blows. When doors are opened and closed, when roommates walk around in the next room, when any number of events happen.

My roommates in the next bedroom moved a dresser and I had to reposition my antenna.

I know first-hand that it's a pain. But I really don't know what else to tell you.

- Trip

I can report that just about all the channels that I was getting much stronger signals on have deteriorated with this wet weather we are having. I have lost the 6 to 20 plus points on just about everything...but not all. NJN is still up around 90 inspite of the weather. WPIXDT (11.1) is down to the mid 50s when before it had gone up to the mid 70s.

Cannot seem to get anything digital to come in at all. Is this endemic to this area?

I can report that just about all the channels that I was getting much stronger signals on have deteriorated with this wet weather we are having. I have lost the 6 to 20 plus points on just about everything...but not all. NJN is still up around 90 inspite of the weather. WPIXDT (11.1) is down to the mid 50s when before it had gone up to the mid 70s.

Interesting. That certainly reinforces my earlier theory.

I'm curious about why your mother wasn't seeing the same improvement that you had reported. I saw from one of your earlier posts that you're in Randolph, about 32 miles west of the ESB. What is the terrain like in that area? And how about near your mother's place?

I saw on TVFool.com that most of Randolph does not have a line of site view of the ESB, so reflections and diffraction are the only way that you're going to get a signal. With that said, I'm now wondering if moisture in the soil and other wet surfaces would have a substantial effect on reflections and diffraction -- perhaps even an adverse effect, like diffusion. That would certainly put a damper on signal strength. (I swear I didn't mean to make that pun!)

When I looked at Randolph on TVfool, I merely plugged in your zip code. Try plugging in your complete address, and your mother's too. If your reception of these stations is listed as 2Edge and her's is listed as 1Edge or LOS, or vice versa, then that would further point to terrain as the significant variable between your two reception conditions.

Lately I have been having problems with channel 5. It shows four green bars and I peak it at about 75 but it randomly keeps dropping out. It will go from a strong signal to nothing and keep pixlating. It would do it at various times and it is very annoying. I don't want to hear that multipath baloney because it was fine last week. It started to do this a few days ago.

Reddice, just because you can't SEE any multipath doesn't mean that the condition isn't there. Unfortunately, God gave us eyes that can't see radio waves, so we're stuck using our abilities of reason and abstraction to identify what we can't otherwise see.

There are a great many people on this forum who want to help you, and they have offered advice and relayed their own experience to help you to see what's going on with your own reception. But your own online tone just doesn't seem to be very receptive to that assistance. If you don't want to THINK about these things, then there's nothing that any of us can do to help you. And people will stop trying.

James -

Well said!

Cannot seem to get anything digital to come in at all. Is this endemic to this area?

On the contrary, you should have very strong signals. See TVfool.com and enter your own address.

Also, tell us what kind of antenna you're using? With or without a pre-amp? What tuner/tv? etc. Have you seen any signal strength indicators on your equipment?

What does analog TV look like for you? Snow? Ghosts? Interference?

Let us know.

Also tell us - indoor or outdoor antenna?

How high is it?

Used to live in Riverdale and it's one of the highest elevations in NYC.

the antennais a roof antenna about 60 feet aboveground in a multi=familyservicedby an antenna company which insists there is no signal. I'll try to get info omn the natenna - it has a booster on it but analog signals can be ghostly on occassion.

the antennais a roof antenna about 60 feet aboveground in a multi=familyservicedby an antenna company which insists there is no signal. I'll try to get info omn the natenna - it has a booster on it but analog signals can be ghostly on occassion.

Time for a new antenna company!:rolleyes:

Rothe,

Thanks for the post and your comments. I am new to all of this OTA stuff. I just had my mother's house upgraded in August with a new antenna (CM4228 and CM 7777 amp) and when I saw all the stations she was getting with her RCA digital to analog converter (she refuses to use cablevision) hooked up I thought I would put the same setup on my roof. While she is only a 1/2 mile away as the crow flies our locations are a little different. She is in a flat area with no hills or tall trees close by and not in the line of her antenna direction to the ESB. On the otherhand I am on the side of a hill and surrounded by tall trees. I do have the hill and trees in front of my antenna's line of sight to the ESB. I am probably 100 to 200 feet higher in elavation then she is and we are both in an area that is probably 600 to 700 feet about sea level.

What I find puzzling is that I have had really great reception recently with all the NY stations at or near 80% or better. I checked her reception out when that happened and I did not get the same results. Thus I thought maybe the wind moved my antenna. However the reception changed to much less signal again with the rainy weather. When this weather gets cold and dry again I will report on my results.

Her signal seems to be consistant regardless of the weather. I might also add that she gets channel 13.1 etc and WLIW 21.2 etc. The RCA box is pulling them in with some signal loss on ocaision while my Sharp TV does not even try to pull them in. She is real happy with what she gets on her TV.

28, WNBC-DT had major audio level problems earlier this morning - all the way in the basement. The analog feed was fine.

The digital audio is now back to its "normal" relatively low level.

I just had my mother's house upgraded in August with a new antenna (CM4228 and CM 7777 amp) and when I saw all the stations she was getting with her RCA digital to analog converter

You might want to ask her if you can borrow her D/A converter for a few hours, just rule out tuner differences. If her converter box does significantly better than your TV's built-in tuner, then you might want to look into other tuner solutions. (I *love* my home-theater PC, with four built-in tuners, plenty of hard drive space, and the ability to convert programs for just about any viewing device on my home network, or even portable players.)

She is in a flat area with no hills or tall trees close by and not in the line of her antenna direction to the ESB. On the otherhand I am on the side of a hill and surrounded by tall trees. I do have the hill and trees in front of my antenna's line of sight to the ESB. I am probably 100 to 200 feet higher in elavation then she is and we are both in an area that is probably 600 to 700 feet about sea level.

Well, that does it -- you're going to have to move the mountain! ;)

My reception situation is a very different one. I'm down in the NJ shore area, about a half-mile from the beach. The terrain is generally dead-flat and, as per TVfool, I have a line-of-site (LOS) view of the ESB. They don't take into account any of the taller apartment buildings that are about a half-mile north of me, right in the LOS. My understanding of how these signals travel from transmitter to receiver is that they will typically go through buildings to some extent, but much more than that, they will diffract around the buildings. The end result is somewhat of a multipath effect, with certain sweet-spots fore and aft of where I might mount my antenna, and also in altitude.

We all can probably recall playing with rabbit ears on an old tv set, and finding the sweet spot for reception of a given station. Or perhaps adjusting the telescoping antenna on a portable radio in the same manner. We're faced with the same situation for our HDTV reception.

In other words, if I have trouble receiving a given station, I can drastically improve the reception of that one station by moving the antenna closer or farther away by some fraction of a wavelength. Depending on the station, that could mean a couple of inches or a few feet. Because I have my antenna mounted in the attic, on a small mast mounted into a picnic-table umbrella stand, I have the liberty of moving it around anywhere within the attic. On the other hand, my Winegard HD7698P is huge, so it takes up a substantial portion of the attic, thus limiting my placement range. Still, I think I've found the sweet spot for me, for now -- until February when many of the stations' frequencies change.

My point in spelling this out is that you have a similar issue to what I have with buildings, but your obstacles are trees and hills. But I'll bet there's still a sweet spot that you can find that will get you the reception that you want. If your 8-bay monstrosity is mounted in the attic, then see if you can't fiddle with placement like I did, to include elevation changes (up or down) by however many inches you can. (That umbrella-stand trick makes a great movable mount.) If you're using an outdoor mount, then you can probably still adjust the elevation to some extent.

The trick with most multipath issues, even those caused by objects in the LOS, is to find the sweet spot. It's out there, somewhere. ;)

"Rosie" is in 2-channel stereo and HD.

Even though the show is putrid, would have thought that if NBC went for HD and since music is big part of the show, they would have sprung for 5.1.

Things are tough all over, especailly at 30 Rock!!!!

Watching today's parade coverage, for the first time WNBC has better video than WCBS. WNBC is being shown in true HD, while WCBS looks like they are running SD video on their digital channnel.

CBS's coverage of the parade is produced in SD!

I noticed in another thread someone else besides me does not get ANY sound from LATV 11.2

I used to get sound and then a month ago it went away. The picture is fine but no more sound. I am now using DTVpal.

Does anyone know why this happened and if they plan on fixing it?

thanks

I get sound on 11.2. I think the problem is on your end.

It depends. If they're not sending AC3 audio, then some receivers won't decode it. I've seen stations try to get away with sending only MPEG-2 audio (which is not part of the ATSC standard) and it just doesn't work on some receivers.

I'd have to see some TSReader output on WPIX-DT to know if that's what's going on though, it could be a number of things.

- Trip

The audio quality is about the worst I've heard - but it's there!

I get sound on 11.2. I think the problem is on your end.

What digital box do you use? I use the DTVpal. It used to get the sound. Now it just stopped. I haven't tried the Zenith 901 yet

The audio quality is about the worst I've heard - but it's there!

So maybe it is the DTV-pal? another person who has the same box has the same trouble.

When I get a chance I will try the Zenith

Funny how the DTV-pal worked and now it does not

Did something change on the ESB? last time I posted in this thread was in early 2007 after i brought my silver sensor I tried it and got no channels so I sat it on my file cabinet for a year, so fast forward today I decided to hook it up today and what do you know I get 14 DTV channels now.

Yes!

I think I have an issue with mutipath.. I get good video but maybe like every 5-10 seconds the picture will jump or pause then come back audio is effected as well.

However I'm very happy now that I can pick up the signals.. will a amp on my Zenth silver sensor help? I have it mounted outside the window, I live at a apartment and so I can't mount anything on the wall, when I get a A/C unit I will mount it on top of that.

Also I've picked up some stations (no picture/No sound) it just showed up when scanning for OTA channels.. one was LATV in HD I never heard of that channel...

I did a 2nd scan before bed and I got WLIW-NY but the picture was jumping so I changed.

LATV is transmitted by WPIX-DT on channel 11-2 from the Empire State Building.

WLIW is going HD "soon"

Just in case ya'll didn't know :)

They once were and pulled the plug.

Any idea when?

LATV is transmitted by WPIX-DT on channel 11-2 from the Empire State Building.

Again I get no sound on LATV 11.2 but I do get sound on 11.1 WPIX. Trying to figure out if it is my DTVpal that did have sound 8 weeks ago

I get sound and may get video but it's not often..

I might need an amp for my antenna. I live about 29 miles from the ESB and on a two story building and i'm on the first floor.. I just have the antenna pointed in a SW direction to the ESB.

Also what is up with NBC weather +?

maybe it's because I have mutipath issues but I see stuff like a weather report about to happen then it gets cut off then goes to some tv commercial.. the sound also as well sounds jacked..

the other stations are fine so far..

using my Hauppauge HVR-1600 tuner

Another question: Will NYC get these substations? It was written they want to be in 75% of the USA by Feb 19th. Anyone with the inside knowledge?

There is a new substation in Chicago. It is Weigel Broadcasting

They own 3 new substations for rent to the BIG networks looking for more then just 24/7 weather channel. The BIG networks can rent all 3 substations or just part of one. IF they wanted just 4 hours they can rent just 4 hours

The 3 substations are called MeTv, MeToo, And This TV

This TV has old movies and old Tv shown 24/7 with little Advertising.

A website showing All there stations

http://www.metvchicago.com/


Here is a tv guide of the programing
http://titantvguide.titantv.com/apg/basic.aspx?siteid=52545

This TV's program schedule relies on the extensive library of films and TV programming currently owned by MGM (notably excluding the pre-1986 MGM film/TV library, whose rights are currently held by Turner Entertainment and Time Warner). The film lineup does not concentrate on films from any specific era, meaning films from the Depression era to contemporary times are featured. There are no plans for any original programming on the network, although the use of on-air presenters may be included in This TV's movie broadcasts.[1]

This TV also features a daily block of childrens' programming (including shows that meet the E/I content requirements) that is handled by Toronto-based Cookie Jar Entertainment.

Me TV and Me Too are local things that are not syndicated out to local stations like RTN is. That wouldn't stop anybody from doing something like that in New York though.

As for This TV, your guess is as good as mine. Before the launch, they announced they had signed 30 affiliates, but so far I've seen about 8, including one that was announced and never put This TV on (KDOC in Los Angeles). I'm anxiously awaiting its launch in my area, as I was told I'd have a local affiliate but one has yet to show up.

- Trip

Haven't heard anything about Weigel coming into the NY market.

The programming services are on WCIU owned by Weigel.

Unless big bucks were part of the deal, I can't see one of NY's stations going with Weigel.

Big network stations in other markets are picking up This TV (WDIV Detroit and KPRC Houston are set to start ASAP to replace WeatherPlus, though they're not owned by NBC).

This TV is a joint partnership of Weigel and MGM, so it's not like they're going with "just" Weigel. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on a subchannel of one of the UHF stations like WLNY or WRNN before all is said and done, though probably not the "big" stations in New York.

- Trip

Mark -

I think you hit it when you mentioned that the two stations, WDIV and KPRC are not owned by NBC - they're Post-Newsweek. Although the big corps owning CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CW and MY really don't know what to do with their sub-channels, I doubt if they'll go with Weigel/MGM.

Here in NY, what continues to puzzle me is the way Fox, the owner of 5 and 9 has each of those channels simulcasting, on its one sub, the sister station's SD signal. What a total waste of bandwidth. Mark, if you can see a purpose, please let me know.

Nobody here knows me as Mark. :p

CW, NBC, and ABC in New York are already spoken for as far as subchannels go, and CBS isn't doing subchannels anywhere except in Sacramento on a temporary basis while some tower work is going on. The 5/9 thing goes back to when 9 didn't have a digital. I figure they hang onto it now since 9's signal is the weakest of the commercial soon-to-be-former VHFs, and if people see one and not the other it won't be a huge loss. At least until they get all the analog equipment out of the Empire State Building and can maximize both signals as they've indicated they want to.

Even though I know I said CW's subchannels are spoken for, remember that it's owned by Sam Zell and Tribune and not by the CW network itself. There's definitely a chance another subchannel could show up there, as Zell is anxious to squeeze every penny out of his stations. (Can't say I blame him either.)

- Trip

Big network stations in other markets are picking up This TV (WDIV Detroit and KPRC Houston are set to start ASAP to replace WeatherPlus, though they're not owned by NBC).

This TV is a joint partnership of Weigel and MGM, so it's not like they're going with "just" Weigel. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on a subchannel of one of the UHF stations like WLNY or WRNN before all is said and done, though probably not the "big" stations in New York.

- Trip

Well I read that 80 affiliates of NBC has opted OUT of the STATION Weather Plus 24/7 So they are in need to fill that station.

I would love to see more content on substations. To become more like Cable with Advertising. It seems that 30 million homes in USA are OTA. That is a big number and a real untapped market for the BIG networks.

24/7
movie channel
news channel
sci fi channel
amc type channel
sports channel

ect you get the idea. The fact that most networks will come in cable clear with the new digital tv. This is a real untapped market. imo

NBC weather + ends tomorrow?

and interesting about this pulse 87...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNYZ-LP

I was thinking to myself wow odd.. that's one strong radio station...

I heard WeatherPlus was to end on 12/31, but I know some stations are dumping it early.

- Trip

NBC weather + ends tomorrow?

Not sure of the date. I did read that a lot of affiliates I remember the number 80 were opting out of the weather 24/7 station on NBC

I heard WeatherPlus was to end on 12/31, but I know some stations are dumping it early.

- Trip

That date rings a bell

NBC weather + ends tomorrow?

and interesting about this pulse 87...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNYZ-LP

I was thinking to myself wow odd.. that's one strong radio station...

I also read that some or all will replace it with "THIS TV"

Don't know if true though

The only ones I know of that are replacing it with This TV are the ones I mentioned which are owned by Post-Newsweek. I know a number of them are going to do local weather, but I'm pretty sure WNBC-DT in New York will be launching that all-news subchannel to replace it.

- Trip

An ok.. we will see..

the channels I have a hard time getting are..

WXTV-DT
LATV
and the CW

only care about the CW however.

An ok.. we will see..

the channels I have a hard time getting are..

WXTV-DT
LATV
and the CW

only care about the CW however.

You may be having interference problems from WFSB-DT 33. It's on the same channel as WPIX from New York.

- Trip

You may be having interference problems from WFSB-DT 33. It's on the same channel as WPIX from New York.

- Trip

hmm on Wikipedia it's not saying it's listed on the same channel however WFSB is running 1000KW for digital but heck it's too far upsate to get it on digital or analog

WPIX-DT is on 33 and WFSB-DT is on 33. I just looked up where Greenwich is and I'm doubting that's your problem though, given your location.

Not sure what to tell you about it. Perhaps there's someone from your area who might be able to tell you more.

- Trip

They once were and pulled the plug.

Any idea when?

Somewhere around the DTV transition date I think.

The only ones I know of that are replacing it with This TV are the ones I mentioned which are owned by Post-Newsweek. I know a number of them are going to do local weather, but I'm pretty sure WNBC-DT in New York will be launching that all-news subchannel to replace it.

- Trip

Would that be MSNBC?

No, it's the local news channel they've been talking about for months.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/business/media/07cnd-wnbc.html?_r=2&sq=WNBC&st=cse&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&scp=4&adxnnlx=1210263528-0lrY1vgn7wPCfAU3punKTg

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2008/05/08/2008-05-08_wnbc_launching_247_news_channel.html

- Trip

well weather plus was still on when I woke up this morning from what I understand its going to be somewhat like a 24 hour news program? I heard sue simmons is going to be on it? heh make sure someone does not do anything stupid so she has to ask what they are doing ;-)

I got it ty

What had been expected to be a competitor to NY1, a 24-hour news service, has now been "re-directed."

The Content Center is really nothing more than a new newsroom now on the 7th floor of 30 Rock. In essence, it's no more than a cutdown version of the also new network facility on the 3rd floor - and the "news gatherers" will also supply the new channel 4 Web site -also sporting an absurd new name.

The latest word around is that the new 24-hour service will have a lesser emphasis on news updated stories and breaking news, but will rely on a lot of programming from the recently acquired production company LXTV, the producers of the illiterate "Open House" series on 4 and other on the cheap productions.

The new service is really something to look forward to - amazing that it's being provided by the flagship station of the NBC Television Network.

Once again, General Sarnoff is rolling in his grave!

Damn, sad to hear that. I actually looked forward to a 24/7 local news operation since Comcast doesn't carry NY1 here.

It sounds as if - yes, 24/7 but it will be "McNews"!

what is a good amp for my antenna? I'm guessing im going to need a powered amp?

I would highly recommend the Winegard HDP-269. It should give you plenty of power without overloading the tuners.

what is a good amp for my antenna? I'm guessing im going to need a powered amp?

See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html, and scroll down to "Comparing some common antenna amplifiers." Actually, that whole page should provide some valuable information to you.

See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html, and scroll down to "Comparing some common antenna amplifiers." Actually, that whole page should provide some valuable information to you.


hmm so it's just for long cable runs? the cable I have now is like 5 ft long but its not reason to be that long..

but it's annoying I'd watch the OTA HD channels more if it did not freeze every 15-30 secs.

only time I switch is when the news is on.

any other stations plan on switching back to VHF? If so then I can use the apartment antenna again.. right now it's only just a VHF antenna.

My sliver sensor is about 40Ft lower in elevation then the apartment antenna on the roof. And I don't have an attic.

WABC-DT, currently broadcasting on Channel 45 will revert to Channel 7 -

WPIX-DT, currently broadcasting on Channel 33 will go to 11 -

WNET-DT, currently on Channel 61 will be on 13.

Hope this helps.

if you only have 5 feet of cable and no splitters, an amplifier is uinlikely to help you much unless you get one of those super-duper low-noise amps that cost $300-500.

... then I can use the apartment antenna again.. right now it's only just a VHF antenna.

You should probably talk to the apartment supervisor about getting that antenna replaced. I decent VHF-high/UHF antenna would probably only cost about $150, and since a VHF-only antenna is already there, the extent of the installation would *probably* only be removing one antenna and replacing it with the other. You could do that yourself.

How many people share that antenna? Maybe you could split the cost and save the apartment management company some trouble.

I wonder if the distribution amplifiers, wiring, and splitters are wideband enough to pass UHF signals

I wonder if the distribution amplifiers, wiring, and splitters are wideband enough to pass UHF signals

If I wanted to test such a cabling system, I would connect a portable HDTV - in my case, my laptop with a USB tuner - to the antenna way upstream from where he's connected now. In his case, that would take some coordination with the super, and he'd probably need to disconnect some downstream "customers" while he did his troubleshooting. But it might yield valuable data.

It does seem strange not adding UHF years ago with all those UHF analog stations available there.

You should probably talk to the apartment supervisor about getting that antenna replaced. I decent VHF-high/UHF antenna would probably only cost about $150, and since a VHF-only antenna is already there, the extent of the installation would *probably* only be removing one antenna and replacing it with the other. You could do that yourself.

How many people share that antenna? Maybe you could split the cost and save the apartment management company some trouble.

antenna runs to about 32-38 buildings I thought about that but if Channel 7 is moving to VHF then what is the point? I doubt many people use it.. I only found it one day that it worked..

and 4 other buildings (not attached) also have an antenna..


This also brings up another question.. the worst channels that are hard to get are Channel 2 and 4 sometimes they come in decent but the rest of the time it's like the transmission power was cut in half and it's almost around the same time every day.

And as far as splitting the cost with most everyone here that has Cablevision (they told renters to remove sat dishes) last year.

Here is a good example.. for some reason the HD feed from NBC wont allow me to screen capture it from my capture card it looks like a bad interlaced picture.

WNBC-DT

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9020/pict0003dc1.jpg


NBC-SD

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/33/wnbcro8.jpg

antenna runs to about 32-38 buildings I thought about that but if Channel 7 is moving to VHF then what is the point? I doubt many people use it.. I only found it one day that it worked..

and 4 other buildings (not attached) also have an antenna..


This also brings up another question.. the worst channels that are hard to get are Channel 2 and 4 sometimes they come in decent but the rest of the time it's like the transmission power was cut in half and it's almost around the same time every day.

And as far as splitting the cost with most everyone here that has Cablevision (they told renters to remove sat dishes) last year.

32-38 buildings? Or do you mean units?
Regardless, there might be a lot more reasons why you can't get a good signal. For example they could be using RG59 or 58 cable, or are they using any 5- 450MHZ splitters, which means it would kill any UHF signal. Or they could be using an apartment amplifier that only goes up to 550MHZ, which means nothing higher would be let through.
For example WNBC-DT operates on Ch28 UHF which is around 554 MHZ. WCBS-DT operates on Ch56 UHF or around 722Mhz. If there are splitters or amps on that line that are not at least 900MHZ, you are going to have problems getting that station.
Also the higher the freq, the more signal is lost on the cable, especially if its RG59.
I live 25 miles away from ESB on LI and with a $3.99 Radio Shack bowtie UHF antenna in my attic, fed with 50 feet of RG6, I pick up all the stations (except WNET, low power). I would experiment with just getting a bowtie antenna with a matching transformer hooked to the TV, and if you are by a window, aim for the ESB or whatever tower is in your area and see what happens.

Is WNYW-DT down to 480p right now for anyone OTA?

Or is it just Time Warner doing something 'funny'...

(I wonder if WNYW is planning on dropping its signal to 480p when it not showing HD during local time...)

32-38 buildings? Or do you mean units?
Regardless, there might be a lot more reasons why you can't get a good signal. For example they could be using RG59 or 58 cable, or are they using any 5- 450MHZ splitters, which means it would kill any UHF signal. Or they could be using an apartment amplifier that only goes up to 550MHZ, which means nothing higher would be let through.
For example WNBC-DT operates on Ch28 UHF which is around 554 MHZ. WCBS-DT operates on Ch56 UHF or around 722Mhz. If there are splitters or amps on that line that are not at least 900MHZ, you are going to have problems getting that station.
Also the higher the freq, the more signal is lost on the cable, especially if its RG59.
I live 25 miles away from ESB on LI and with a $3.99 Radio Shack bowtie UHF antenna in my attic, fed with 50 feet of RG6, I pick up all the stations (except WNET, low power). I would experiment with just getting a bowtie antenna with a matching transformer hooked to the TV, and if you are by a window, aim for the ESB or whatever tower is in your area and see what happens.

sorry I meant units, and I think they are using the funny thing is with the apartment antenna one cable station bleeds into the antenna for some reason the picture is snowy but it has sound and that's CNN...

And it's a power injection as I happen to get a little tingle shock one day touching the tip of the cable.


So this bowtie antenna is not directional?

I have rabbit ears but the cable is a bit too short for me.

Here is a good example.. for some reason the HD feed from NBC wont allow me to screen capture it from my capture card it looks like a bad interlaced picture.

Saw your screen shots. I'm a little confused. You said that you couldn't receive UHF over the apartment complex antenna, but NBC-DT is broadcast over UHF. NBC (analog) is on a VHF channel. Or did this come from your Silver Sensor?

As for the "interlacing" that you claim to see, that's not what I'm seeing in your screen shots. An improperly de-interlaced signal will have fine, sharp *horizontal lines* throughout the image, and probably won't be watchable at all. What your camera shot shows is some subtle moire patterns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern -- see the downsampling image on the right). Granted, it's a camera shot that you sent us, so I can't really be sure of what you're seeing.

If you're concerned that it might be a little blurry, then I'd ask how you have that HTPC hooked up to your TV. What cable/interface are you using?

Lastly, about the inability to do screen captures, that might have to do with digital transmission content protection (DTCP) enabled by NBC. I'm aware that some capture software supports this -- is that WinTV that you're using? -- so that might be why you can't do any screen shots of NBC-DT.

So this bowtie antenna is not directional?

I have rabbit ears but the cable is a bit too short for me.

The bowtie is directional, and I have this one
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017
The reviews are pretty good.


Rabbit ears might work , its mostly for VHF, but I did pick up the same stations with rabbit ears so give it a shot. If your cable is too short, extend it with a coupling. One thing about antenna reception is it's not an exact science sometimes, and the simplest things work better than the elaborate ones.

Saw your screen shots. I'm a little confused. You said that you couldn't receive UHF over the apartment complex antenna, but NBC-DT is broadcast over UHF. NBC (analog) is on a VHF channel. Or did this come from your Silver Sensor?

As for the "interlacing" that you claim to see, that's not what I'm seeing in your screen shots. An improperly de-interlaced signal will have fine, sharp *horizontal lines* throughout the image, and probably won't be watchable at all. What your camera shot shows is some subtle moire patterns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern -- see the downsampling image on the right). Granted, it's a camera shot that you sent us, so I can't really be sure of what you're seeing.

If you're concerned that it might be a little blurry, then I'd ask how you have that HTPC hooked up to your TV. What cable/interface are you using?

Lastly, about the inability to do screen captures, that might have to do with digital transmission content protection (DTCP) enabled by NBC. I'm aware that some capture software supports this -- is that WinTV that you're using? -- so that might be why you can't do any screen shots of NBC-DT.

NBC-DT was from my Silver Sensor.. NBC the SD feed was from the apartment antenna.

and the bad interlacing I was talking about was what you were saying about NBC and the DTCP enabled.

Also the shot of my computer screen with the NBC-DT was blury because I had the macro mode on.. (doh!)

It was fine.. but I get a lot of uncorrectable errors that cause the channel to freeze. My SNR ratio can go as low as 21.5 to as high as 27 I have seen.

I did not post shots of the failed NBC-DT screen capture because I figured someone knew about that already. :)

also I have tried other programs and it's the same issue with NBC-DT the screen shot size come out to something larger then 1080 and it's twisted sideways..

and yes that is WinTV 6

*edit included NBC-DT picture capture.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/334/nbcdtbp2.jpg

Did anyone notice an extreme degradation of signal on channel 11-1 HD (TheCW11)? I'm in Queens, ground floor of a small apt building but about 8 miles from ES with no real tall bldgs between. I usually get between 80-95% on all channels 2-11, 55% on 13. I noticed last nite though that while all my channels were OK, 11-1 was horrible - antenna showed like 75% signal but I had NO audio and picture was extremely pixellated. What gives??