New York, NY - OTA [Text View] - Page 35

nordloewelabs

05-20-09, 05:49 PM

A few months ago, I saw multiple mentions of a pending move of the WNJB transmitting location from New Brunswick, NJ to the Empire State Building.

according to TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90), WNJB is currently at the Condinast building, not New Brunswick. if you enter a zipcode in that page, it shows you a Google map with the location of all the transmitters in the area.

...which leads me to the question: why cant i receive WNJB 58.1 (NM 54.1dB; Pwr: -36.7dBm) when i can easily receive Fox 5.1 (NM 45.4dB; Pwr -45.5dBm) and NBC 4.1 (NM 48.6dB; -42.3dBm)?

i'm on 200th street and, according to www.tvfool.com (http://www.tvfool.com), WNJB is currently on the very top of my Signal Analysis report appearing as the strongest channel, but i cant get it -- even though i get all the other channels "green" channels! i'm PBS-less! :-( i understand i cant get Thirteen 13.1 or WLIW 21.1 because they are on the yellow and red zones of my Signal report. however, i expected to, at least, get WNJB.

i'm using an indoor antena i made myself. is anyone from the Wash Heights/Inwood area getting WNJB 58.1?

P.S.: i just realized something. WNJB is the only "green" channel on my Signal report that is broadcasting in VHF. its actual channel is 8. maybe that's why i don get it.

SnellKrell

05-20-09, 06:06 PM

WNJB has not moved to the Conde Nast Building as of yet. In fact, the station has filed and been granted an extension until Octover 18th to complete the move to NYC. The following is a filing with the Commission, made last monthy, that talks to this very point.

NJPBA IS MOVING WITH ALL DUE DILIGENCE TO IMPLEMENT THE MODIFICATION, WHICH REPRESENTS THE CULMINATION OF DECADES OF EFFORTS TO DRAMATICALLY ENHANCE SERVICE TO THE PUBLIC VIA RELOCATION OF FACILITIES TO A VASTLY SUPERIOR SITE. IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT THE MODIFICATION WAS ONLY RECENTLY GRANTED AND OF THE LOGISTICAL ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH THIS PROJECT, NJPBA ANTICIPATED THAT IT WOULD SEEK SOME ADDITIONAL TIME TO COMPLETE THE RELOCATION. IN THAT REGARD NJPBA HAS FILED AND BEEN GRANTED AN EXTENSION UNTIL OCTOBER 18, 2009 TO COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION PURSUANT TO THE FCC'S POLICIES REGARDING PHASED TRANSITION RELIEF (SEE FCC. FILE NO. BLDSTA-20081217ABN). SUCH ADDITIONAL TIME WILL IN NO WAY COMPROMISE THE ACCESS OF NJPBA'S CURRENT AUDIENCE TO THE LICENSEE'S ANALOG AND DIGITAL SERVICE.

Trip in VA

05-20-09, 06:08 PM

TV Fool is in error, probably due to errors in the FCC database. WNJB-DT is, to my knowledge, still in New Jersey.

- Trip

nordloewelabs

05-20-09, 06:15 PM

what about their Signal Analysis report? is that wrong too? i'd rather get one PBS than ABC 7.1, WNYE 25.1, or the spanish channels. it really upsets me i have no PBS.

btw, when i check TVFool's Signal Analysis post-Jun 12, i see Thirteen 13.1 move from the "yellow zone" up to the green one with all its transmission numbers a bit higher. does that mean that they will broadcast with stronger signal after Jun 12? can i trust TVFool's analysis at all?

Trip in VA

05-20-09, 06:25 PM

TV Fool is generally correct but the data for WNJB is wrong. I've seen a few of these "jump the gun" sort of issues with the FCC database where it shows a station as using a future site for transmission rather than the current one.

- Trip

NYC10033

05-21-09, 02:34 AM

according to
i'm on 200th street and, according to TVFool, WNJB is currently on the very top of my Signal Analysis report appearing as the strongest channel, but i cant get it -- even though i get all the other channels "green" channels! i'm PBS-less! :-( i understand i cant get Thirteen 13.1 or WLIW 21.1 because they are on the yellow and red zones of my Signal report. however, i expected to, at least, get WNJB.

i'm using an indoor antena i made myself. is anyone from the Wash Heights/Inwood area getting WNJB 58.1?

P.S.: i just realized something. WNJB is the only "green" channel on my Signal report that is broadcasting in VHF. its actual channel is 8. maybe that's why i don get it.

I'm at 187th Street in Washington Heights, about 1 block away from Bennet Park which has a plaque attached to a rock that says that THAT is the highest natural point in Manhattan - not on top of a building.

I get WNJB New Brunswick as 50-1 and 50-2. The signal on my Zenith 901 is Green - I'd guess 90%. I don't get 58 - or am I getting 58 as 50? I'm a bit confused. I use an old indoor UHF dual bowtie antenna. I'm afraid that on June 12, when stations shift to VHF, my UHF antenna will be worthless. I may buy a Radio Shack dual band $20 indoor antenna, with the plan to return it if it doesn't work. Also whenever a plane flys along the Hudson River, the picture freezes, pixelates, disappears. Starting June 12, there are going to be ALOT of angry people - The government should give coupons for antennas too.

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 03:57 AM

I get WNJB New Brunswick as 50-1 and 50-2. The signal on my Zenith 901 is Green - I'd guess 90%. I don't get 58 - or am I getting 58 as 50? I'm a bit confused. i think Trip was right.... TVFool is not giving the right info regarding WNJB. AntennaWeb also lists the station as virtual channel 58.1 (channel 8 on VHF), but the difference is that AntennaWeb says WNJB will only become operational on June 12. very confusing, indeed!

I use an old indoor UHF dual bowtie antenna. I'm afraid that on June 12, when stations shift to VHF, my UHF antenna will be worthless.probably not. some channels will remain in UHF. i hope i can get Thirteen or WLIW21 next month. you live on the top of the island, so i'm not surprised you can get WNJB. do you get any other PBS station in digital?

i always have a very stable picture, but probably because i'm too far from the planes' routes to be affected. i made a temporary UHF antenna using 14-gauge wires and it gets me all channels except the PBSs (which i love). however, i plan on buying the Terk HDTVa once the transition is over. my converter is very good (Channel Master CM-7000), but my window -- unfortunately -- faces North. :( now that PBS stations are streaming videos on their websites, i can survive without their broadcasts. however, i'd much rather have them on the telly as well!

StudioTech

05-21-09, 05:36 AM

I get WNJB New Brunswick as 50-1 and 50-2.

You're actually picking up WNJN out of Montclair. If you were picking up WNJB, it would show up on 58-1.

jpg7

05-21-09, 08:50 AM

This morning I noticed that reception on WNJU (Telemundo 47.1) took a nosedive for me. Any other observed problems, particularly in Brooklyn? Everything else stayed fine except for a slight drop in WNBC signal strength (and this is with my antenna in its magic "get everything" spot).

I believe WNJU-DT is on 36 - would anything using the emergency 37 channel interfere with it?

SnellKrell

05-21-09, 09:00 AM

Not getting any signal on Channel 36!

Trip in VA

05-21-09, 10:12 AM

I believe WNJU-DT is on 36 - would anything using the emergency 37 channel interfere with it?

Channel 37 is reserved for radio astronomy. Technically speaking, there should be nothing at all on it ever other than maybe some very low powered hospital equipment.

- Trip

SnellKrell

05-21-09, 10:12 AM

36 is back!

lexus2108

05-21-09, 11:07 AM

I'm at 187th Street in Washington Heights, about 1 block away from Bennet Park which has a plaque attached to a rock that says that THAT is the highest natural point in Manhattan - not on top of a building.

I get WNJB New Brunswick as 50-1 and 50-2. The signal on my Zenith 901 is Green - I'd guess 90%. I don't get 58 - or am I getting 58 as 50? I'm a bit confused. I use an old indoor UHF dual bowtie antenna. I'm afraid that on June 12, when stations shift to VHF, my UHF antenna will be worthless. I may buy a Radio Shack dual band $20 indoor antenna, with the plan to return it if it doesn't work. Also whenever a plane flys along the Hudson River, the picture freezes, pixelates, disappears. Starting June 12, there are going to be ALOT of angry people - The government should give coupons for antennas too.

I was told that if the tower is close. Under 10 miles a UHF antenna should pick up VHF. Don't hold me to that though

mikepier

05-21-09, 11:15 AM

I was told that if the tower is close. Under 10 miles a UHF antenna should pick up VHF. Don't hold me to that though

Well for what its worth, I'm 25 miles away from ESB and have a cheap bowtie antenna outside under an eave, And I can get most of the analogs pretty good with a little snow, so we'll see come June 12th.

SnellKrell

05-21-09, 11:17 AM

I live 1.6 miles from the ESB and my UHF antenna cannot pickup VHF 2 and has trouble with 4 and 5.

Under 10 miles has little to do with it. You must consider the station's frequency and your location's terrain. Huge difference between 10 miles with LOS and 10 miles with steel buildings between you and the transmission point.

Digital reception can be mercurial. Too many people are driving themselves crazy about what they will or will not be able to receive come the transition, and they continue to ask unanswerable questions.

Have patience and wait until 6/12 - this will be the time when you will have the ability to judge the quality of your reception.

And to confuse things even more, after 6/12, stations will be changing things on the ESB once unused analogue antennas are removed from both the mooring mast and the antenna mast. New and more desirable real estate will become available.

Stations have planned changes going into 2010 and 2011.

It will be an ever changing world out there!

Falcon_77

05-21-09, 11:26 AM

I was told that if the tower is close. Under 10 miles a UHF antenna should pick up VHF. Don't hold me to that though

The problem isn't so much the distance, but the signal quality. I have had success with using a UHF Silver Sensor to receive upper VHF DTV signals in Monterey, CA, but I had LOS to the mountain (at about 25 miles). On the other side of the building, where my room was, no such luck.

In downtown areas, I have not see very many clean analog VHF signals so am not optimistic for VHF DTV in such areas. Attached are sample pictures from my parents' condo in downtown San Diego of analog KGTV/10. I was able to receive the DTV signal on 25 just fine, however, until it moved back to VHF. Also attached is a sample UHF analog picture.

Can anyone can post analog pics for the NYC downtown areas? I would be most interested in 7, 11 & 13.

lexus2108

05-21-09, 01:06 PM

Well for what its worth, I'm 25 miles away from ESB and have a cheap bowtie antenna outside under an eave, And I can get most of the analogs pretty good with a little snow, so we'll see come June 12th.

From what I heard that is too far. I was looking at a Clearstream C2

It has the same distance for UHF like the DB2/Aspen. 50 miles and it is made for high vhf 7 to 13. No Vhf will be lower then 7 after june 12th

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 03:03 PM

Under 10 miles has little to do with it. You must consider the station's frequency and your location's terrain. Huge difference between 10 miles with LOS and 10 miles with steel buildings between you and the transmission point.

true. that must be the source of my problem at picking the PBSs. i'm on 200th street and this area is very low when compared to Washington Heights. the Tryon Park's hill is probably obstructing the signals.

lexus2108

05-21-09, 03:27 PM

true. that must be the source of my problem at picking the PBSs. i'm on 200th street and this area is very low when compared to Washington Heights. the Tryon Park's hill is probably obstructing the signals.
Not what I heard. IT all matters and UHF antenna will not pick up far away VHF it's that simple

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 04:13 PM

Not what I heard. IT all matters and UHF antenna will not pick up far away VHF it's that simple

of course it all matters.... distance, frequency, shape of antenna, terrain, weather, etc have an influence on the quality of the signal one receives. what i meant initially was:

1) given that i'm only 10 miles away from the furthest transmitter,
2) other people who are even farther away can get the channels,

that means that my relatively low terrain is the likely culprit.

SnellKrell

05-21-09, 04:22 PM

Bingo!

lexus2108

05-21-09, 05:07 PM

of course it all matters.... distance, frequency, shape of antenna, terrain, weather, etc have an influence on the quality of the signal one receives. what i meant initially was:

1) given that i'm only 10 miles away from the furthest transmitter,
2) other people who are even farther away can get the channels,

that means that my relatively low terrain is the likely culprit.

look into the clearstream c2

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 05:30 PM

look into the clearstream c2

do you have it? do you use it indoors?

picking an indoor antenna for my apartment will be difficult.... i was considering the Terk HDTVa based on the immense number of good reviews it has gotten on Amazon (700+, 4 stars). the price is also good. but it's paramount to me to get at least 1 PBS on June 12.

i'll probably have to head to the antenna threads and ask questions. picking the converter was rather easy. choosing the antenna will not. and i will prolly have to ship stuff back.... :(

lexus2108

05-21-09, 05:54 PM

do you have it? do you use it indoors?

picking an indoor antenna for my apartment will be difficult.... i was considering the Terk HDTVa based on the immense number of good reviews it has gotten on Amazon (700+, 4 stars). the price is also good. but it's paramount to me to get at least 1 PBS on June 12.

i'll probably have to head to the antenna threads and ask questions. picking the converter was rather easy. choosing the antenna will not. and i will prolly have to ship stuff back.... :(

Antennas are hit or miss. I know someone using the DB2/Aspen UHF Indoors and gets stations 33 miles away. The C2 is very similar to the Db2 but also gets high VHF 7 to 13 and Uhf. The size and range are almost identical. Also there is a thread here. That shows that these two antennas get very similar numbers for signal and are rated by this forum as number 1 and 2 People use this Outdoor antenna indoors because the size is about a case of water. Not big.

I will get one very soon and plan on putting it on a BIG stick that I bought at homedepot. A Clothes Rod that they cut for me.

The one we have now is the Terk -55 But we get stations barley at 20 miles and not well. Under 15 miles it works great. Max range is 30 miles it says.

The C2 and Db2 are 50 miles. I am hoping for 22 miles. That's all I need for the extra stations I want.

I will hide the C2 behind some furniture

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 06:35 PM

The C2 is very similar to the Db2 but also gets high VHF 7 to 13 and Uhf.

i just read the reviews on Amazon (gonna start reading the AVS reviews now) and ppl have had a bad experience with the C2's high VHF reception.... given that, post-transition, ABC, CW, Thirteen (PBS) and WNJB (PBS) will be on VHF, i must make sure that i can receive VHF indoors.

my crappyly-improvised loop antenna gets lots of UHF channels....including Ion! that means that any not-too-crappy "real" antenna will get me good reception of UHF channels. i only have to ensure that the antenna i pick can also handle VHF high. from what i see, UHF wont be a problem.

lexus2108

05-21-09, 07:04 PM

i just read the reviews on Amazon (gonna start reading the AVS reviews now) and ppl have had a bad experience with the C2's high VHF reception.... given that, post-transition, ABC, CW, Thirteen (PBS) and WNJB (PBS) will be on VHF, i must make sure that i can receive VHF indoors.
.

Can you link some? I didn't see that. Also how was it mounted? I plan a 6 foot stick.

For us those stations you listed will stay 7 miles away. So I see no problem. What was the distance of people complaining about high VHF?

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 07:13 PM

Can you link some? I didn't see that. Also how was it mounted? I plan a 6 foot stick.

what you mean? the reviews?
http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=461709319&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-C2-CLEARSTREAM2-Antenna/product-reviews/B0017O3UHI/ref=pr_all_summary_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAntennas-Direct-C2-CLEARSTREAM2-Antenna%2Fproduct-reviews%2FB0017O3UHI%2Fref%3Dpr_all_summary_cm_cr_acr_txt%3F ie%3DUTF8%26showViewpoints%3D1&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
use the command Edit > Find to search for the word VHF.

does anyone here know of any *indoor* antenna that handles VHF well? i'm accepting suggestions.

Edit: sorry, i dont remember how far the reviewers were...

lexus2108

05-21-09, 07:27 PM

what you mean? the reviews?
http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=461709319&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-C2-CLEARSTREAM2-Antenna/product-reviews/B0017O3UHI/ref=pr_all_summary_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAntennas-Direct-C2-CLEARSTREAM2-Antenna%2Fproduct-reviews%2FB0017O3UHI%2Fref%3Dpr_all_summary_cm_cr_acr_txt%3F ie%3DUTF8%26showViewpoints%3D1&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
use the command Edit > Find to search for the word VHF.

does anyone here know of any *indoor* antenna that handles VHF well? i'm accepting suggestions.

Edit: sorry, i dont remember how far the reviewers were...

As I said the terk-55 is great under 15 miles. does both uhf and vhf

lexus2108

05-21-09, 07:34 PM

BTW the quick search using the command youi just taught me. TY

I see people complain about LOW VHF not high VHF which is what the C2 was made for not low vhf.

Time after time I see people complain about low and not high.

Also after june 12th Only high VHF will be used 7 to 13

And since it is only 7 miles from tower and I was told the DB2 does get in Vhf close only like 10 miles

So I will try the C2. Don't think I can go wrong here. If I do I will return it.

If you pm me I will put you on my list to let know if it worked for me

SemiChemE

05-21-09, 08:04 PM

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 08:38 PM

i'm hoping to find some answer here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

lexus2108

05-21-09, 10:04 PM

lexus2108

05-21-09, 10:11 PM

i'm hoping to find some answer here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

As you can see from our friend EscapeVelocity (thank you sir)

The DB2/Aspen and the C2 are number 1 and 2

I can see no harm in trying it. That is what I will do. I am hoping to pick up stations 21 to 22 miles away. The terk gets 1 or 2 of these stations only at certain times and not well. These far stations are UHF. The VHF will be only 7 miles. So I think I can get best of both worlds

http://i42.tinypic.com/66vjwg.jpg

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 10:30 PM

As you can see from our friend EscapeVelocity (thank you sir)

The DB2/Aspen and the C2 are number 1 and 2

notice that the table doesnt list any VHF channel.
the DB2 and CS2 are very well regarded around here and probably can pick near VHF channels, like you say. but i'd like to hear an owner come up and say it.

i'm compiling a list of good candidates based on that thread but i know there's no perfect antenna. i'll have to compromise.

lexus2108

05-21-09, 11:58 PM

notice that the table doesnt list any VHF channel.
the DB2 and CS2 are very well regarded around here and probably can pick near VHF channels, like you say. but i'd like to hear an owner come up and say it.

i'm compiling a list of good candidates based on that thread but i know there's no perfect antenna. i'll have to compromise.

I have another link around I need to find it. It has the owner of the C2 posting in the thread. I am convinced it will work for us.

Since our VHF will be 7 miles away and the UHF will be 7 to 22 miles.

nordloewelabs

05-21-09, 11:58 PM

Winegard SS-3000
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Winegard-SS-3000-reviews.html
http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=883872055&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-SS-3000-Amplified-Indoor-Antenna/product-reviews/B001DFZ5II/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FWinegard-SS-3000-Amplified-Indoor-Antenna%2Fproduct-reviews%2FB001DFZ5II%2Fref%3Ddp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt%3Fie%3DUTF 8%26showViewpoints%3D1&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Winegard HD-1080
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037149
http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=1319823562&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD-1080-HDTV-High-Antenna/product-reviews/B001DFTGQU/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FWinegard-HD-1080-HDTV-High-Antenna%2Fproduct-reviews%2FB001DFTGQU%2Fref%3Ddp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt%3Fie%3DUTF 8%26showViewpoints%3D1&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Terk HDTVa
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/reviews/Terk-HDTVa-reviews.html

nice list of Indoor antennas:
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/indoor.php

lexus2108

05-22-09, 12:45 AM

reddice

05-22-09, 01:19 PM

lexus2108

05-22-09, 01:31 PM

Closer is not always better which is the case for me. I am only 4 miles from the ESB yet I can't get channels 2 or 13 at all while many others can get channel 2. Also my only strongest local stations are 5 and 7. I can get a real cruddy religious station which is the furthest away 15 miles the strongest of them all. I even peaked it at 96% yet I never got a ESB station much closer higher than 80%. I am worried that come June 12th I will lose channels 7 and 11 since I don't know how high VHF comes in. This is with a Terk HDTVi but I tried many other antennas, amplified and even a 1 dollar antenna VHF and that cruddy WFME comes in very strong but the weak and can't get stations are still weak with any antenna I try.

We get all stations in strong and 2-13 are the strongest. Everything in the 90's signal strength.

As for as "real cruddy religious station " Got to love the old man on channel 29-1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

After June 12th ALL vhf will be HIGH VHF or channels 7 to 13

We just delete those stations. I do not count that in the 28 channels she gets now. Including subs

AloEuro

05-22-09, 03:48 PM

What channel is CV 34 We don't seem to get that at all?
CV34-1 is entirely spanish, it has Haitian 1hour News, short News from Spain, other caribean region programs, probably in Miami it would be on cable.
Caribean Vision, CV34-1 is on ch.34 only Digital, Analog is finito,on L.I. Most programmas
are in spanish, such as Mujeres Asesinas also on Univ.41; Infieles - diabolical schemes of revenge or
just fun; Aida comedy; El Comisario cop show; Hospital; 7 Vidas; Hollywood caffes of gossip or movies;
Futbol Mexicana, boxing, cooking etc.
I use 2 Rabbit Ears with plastic plate Antenna connected on 4-1 Splitter, one coaxial connected to
converter box, the Click,click is best control. Outdoor roof Antenna is used only as support to indoor Antenna, I use also 1or2 extra bows hooked on splitter, it surely gives overload but it is easy to
remove from splitter. Still cannot get 47-1. All major ch. I get, however if I want 41 I risk loosing ION
30-31 or wnet13-61

lexus2108

05-22-09, 03:56 PM

CV34-1 is entirely spanish, it has Haitian 1hour News, short News from Spain, other caribean region programs, probably in Miami it would be on cable

Is it Channel 34? OR some other number?

reddice

05-22-09, 06:46 PM

We get all stations in strong and 2-13 are the strongest. Everything in the 90's signal strength.

As for as "real cruddy religious station " Got to love the old man on channel 29-1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

After June 12th ALL vhf will be HIGH VHF or channels 7 to 13

We just delete those stations. I do not count that in the 28 channels she gets now. Including subs

Well I am hoping I will get channel 2 stronger when it moves to channel 33. Right now channel 11 is on 33 and I get it around the high 50's to 70's with very little break up. Channel 13 is what I am really looking forward too since Dish Network only carries the center cropped down converted SD version.

AloEuro

05-23-09, 04:38 PM

Is it Channel 34? OR some other number?
Strictly 34, the Analog is off the air, I had CV34-1 Digital on Ion31 before but I deleted it then Add on Scan picked it up on 34 its permanent location
and now it is CV34 Network, Digital. Right now the CV34-1 runs promotional
line up in 10 minutes intervales nonstop.
The signal is pretty strong in third Good level around 70-80 fluctuation.
Univision41 runs at Bad level 25-33 but steady uninterupted signal and that
what matters, I had wnet13 running at 25 but locked in giving good PQ and sound

nordloewelabs

05-24-09, 12:04 AM

here's a discussion on the Clearstream antennas with interesting explanations by the company's owner (user "rschneider"). he posted 3 times on the thread and stressed that Clearstreams really do high VHF better.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10341&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=e0c519f9a7d972aae671be5ca75cc8c6

as of now, i'm more inclined to try the Winegards SS-3000 and the HD-1080, but i certainly feel more confident about the Clearstrems now. i wouldnt get the C2, though. too much money.

i have analyzed my TVFool data more attentively and now i see that once WNET-DT switches to channel 13, it will have a reasonably wider transmission range. those that havent tried TVFool's TV Maps (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90), should check it out. it goes beyong the Signal Analysis Report. setup the map to "Display > Both" and compare the pre-transition and post-transition coverage areas of your favourite stations. note that the colors go from "white" to "purple" with purple being the weakest.

lexus2108

05-24-09, 06:42 AM

Strictly 34, the Analog is off the air, I had CV34-1 Digital on Ion31 before but I deleted it then Add on Scan picked it up on 34 its permanent location
and now it is CV34 Network, Digital. Right now the CV34-1 runs promotional
line up in 10 minutes intervales nonstop.
The signal is pretty strong in third Good level around 70-80 fluctuation.
Univision41 runs at Bad level 25-33 but steady uninterupted signal and that
what matters, I had wnet13 running at 25 but locked in giving good PQ and sound

which tower do they use? Are they in NY?

lexus2108

05-24-09, 06:44 AM

nordloewelabs

05-24-09, 07:16 AM

C2 is $75
SS-3000 is $52
HD-1080 is $42
HDTVa is $37
(all with free shipping from Amazon)

the C2 is the last one on my list of candidates....

lexus2108

05-24-09, 07:33 AM

C2 is $75
SS-3000 is $52
HD-1080 is $42
HDTVa is $37
(all with free shipping from Amazon)

the C2 is the last one on my list of candidates....

Direct from amazon was raised from $68 to now $75 BUT you can buy on amazon from other sellers for $60. No tax and $7 shipping. If you pay the $75 direct from Amazon they have to charge NY tax now. New rule. With a 3rd party no tax

I did this for a waffle maker and had no problems. Amazon has a A to z guarantee for 3rd party's.

The Winegard HD-1080 HDTV High Band VHF Antenna

is very interesting. Only 40 miles but has a special VHF thing. Also gets Uhf

Wonder how it compares to C2

PS best buy wants $135 for the C2. ouch!

nordloewelabs

05-24-09, 07:57 AM

like others have said, antenna shopping is more of an art than science, which might force me to try a few models before making a pick. or perhapps i'll just lose my patience and give up on TV.... it's a bad habit anyway.

i'm just going though all this research for good ol' PBS. i also need NBC because my gf is heavy into Law & Order.... all of 'em!!! :D

btw, will NBC keep airing that lame channel with old sport events? what a waste! why dont they put USA on its place, instead? and keeping in the same subject, is there any chance of TNT, TBS, AMC, etc going OTA someday? there are a lot of people giving up on subscription TV in favour of over-the-air DTV and Hulu.

reddice

05-24-09, 01:00 PM

Channel 34 analog was fuzzy but watchable. Digital it breaks up all the time which tells me that digital travels much less. Not progress to many people come June when they are going to be losing many of there OTA stations with there digital converter boxes. They are going to be forced to get cable or satellite.

Bix

05-24-09, 01:26 PM

Depends on the location-I never got Ch. 34 analog at all and now I get it digital with the signal averaging around 60.

ProjectSHO89

05-24-09, 03:04 PM

......

PS best buy wants $135 for the C2. ouch!

Nonsense. It's $99.99 with an occasional sale to $89.99.

Currently:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=9119642&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960

The "good" thing is that you can pick one up locally (usually) and try it out. If you have (or want) to return it, you've got 30 days without shipping or restock fee hassles.

ProjectSHO89

05-24-09, 03:22 PM

lexus2108

05-24-09, 03:48 PM

Nonsense. It's $99.99 with an occasional sale to $89.99.

Currently:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=9119642&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960

The "good" thing is that you can pick one up locally (usually) and try it out. If you have (or want) to return it, you've got 30 days without shipping or restock fee hassles.

Nope it is $99 online and $135 in my local store. I DO NOT LIE. No reason to

Did you go to your local store? Or just check online? Before you attack please do your homework. Thanks

dvdchance

05-24-09, 04:25 PM

Nope it is $99 online and $135 in my local store. I DO NOT LIE. No reason to

Did you go to your local store? Or just check online? Before you attack please do your homework. Thanks

You can always price match to their online price right at the register. I've done it a few times for DVD's and it's quick and painless. Just mention to the cashier that the item is lower online, she/he will go check then adjust the price right at the cash.

nordloewelabs

05-24-09, 04:46 PM

Not progress to many people come June when they are going to be losing many of there OTA stations with there digital converter boxes. They are going to be forced to get cable or satellite.

i agree with Bix. depends on location. where i live, i cannot pick a single VHF channel with acceptable quality.... they all look and sound terrible. on the other hand, with exception of WNET-13.1, i pick all channels nicely using just an improvised loop antenna. Ion-31.1 is the only channel for which messing with the antenna is necessary.

i believe Cable and Satellite will have to adapt in someway to the rise of online video streaming plus the new reality of broadcasting. for years, they have been milking people with their endless number of (useless) channels and over-compressing of video. due to 1) this bad economy; 2) Hulu; 3) DTV; we have reached critical mass. they will have to adapt or die.

my opinion, of course.

lexus2108

05-24-09, 08:25 PM

You can always price match to their online price right at the register. I've done it a few times for DVD's and it's quick and painless. Just mention to the cashier that the item is lower online, she/he will go check then adjust the price right at the cash.

That I DID NOT KNOW Thanks

Would they Price match Amazon or just their own website?

POWERFUL

05-24-09, 10:12 PM

Usually their own, but I've gotten the big box store to match J&R, even out on the the Island.

lexus2108

05-24-09, 10:39 PM

usually their own, but i've gotten the big box store to match j&r, even out on the the island.

big box store?

POWERFUL

05-25-09, 11:06 AM

Best Buy, gone but not forgotten Circuit City, Sears, and I could go on but I think you get the idea.

lexus2108

05-25-09, 12:31 PM

Best Buy, gone but not forgotten Circuit City, Sears, and I could go on but I think you get the idea.

I have found the C2 as low as $57 I find that to be a good price. As long as you use a good CC company that would dispute any problems. Then I do not have a problem buying from an unknown store. As long as there phone number works and address checks out.

Something tells me best buy would not match such a price if they are selling it in a store for $130's

lexus2108

05-25-09, 01:56 PM

I guess I will be called nonsense again for this comment.

My Aunt heard from a neighbor that the transition could be delayed to October, 2009

Anyone else hear this? I hope it is not true. Tired of delays.

I am just sharing what I am hearing and my own DD. I should not be flamed for it. I should be thanked

SnellKrell

05-25-09, 01:58 PM

No thanks!

Falcon_77

05-25-09, 02:19 PM

If you haven't already seen it, check out:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

As for the C2, you might be ok for high VHF if you already have a pretty decent signal, but I wouldn't count on it being a lot better than simple Rabbit Ears. The link above seems to indicate that some 8-bay UHF antennas do OK for high VHF, but the C2 is probably too small. It might get something if your signal is already pretty decent and may do a little better than just rabbit ears, but don't expect miracles.

I agree.

I don't have a C2, but I will re-iterate my position that only looking at miles from the broadcast tower is counterproductive. Obstructions, terrain, impulse noise, reflections/multi-path all play much bigger roles in line of sight areas. Distance becomes a primary issue when the tower sets behind the natural horizon. I wish manufacturers wouldn't quote distance at all. Distance figures are even more meaningless in areas with the towers on a mountain, such as Mt. Wilson in the LA area.

Anyway, here is what HDTV Primer has to say about VHF performance for C2:

The antenna elements are too small to have any response to VHF. And in case a really strong VHF signal sneaks in anyway, the UHF-only balun will filter it out. There is no significant reception for channels 2-13, despite what the antennasdirect.com web page says. This company makes mostly good antennas. But their marketing department lives in their own little world in which they are allowed to claim anything without fear of consequences. Their web site is especially untrustworthy.

It may work and if it does, fine, but I wouldn't count on it for upper VHF, unless the signals in the air around the antenna are very clean and strong.

lexus2108

05-25-09, 02:49 PM

I agree.

I don't have a C2, but I will re-iterate my position that only looking at miles from the broadcast tower is counterproductive. Obstructions, terrain, impulse noise, reflections/multi-path all play much bigger roles in line of sight areas. Distance becomes a primary issue when the tower sets behind the natural horizon. I wish manufacturers wouldn't quote distance at all. Distance figures are even more meaningless in areas with the towers on a mountain, such as Mt. Wilson in the LA area.

Anyway, here is what HDTV Primer has to say about VHF performance for C2:

It may work and if it does, fine, but I wouldn't count on it for upper VHF, unless the signals in the air around the antenna are very clean and strong.

ON existing antenna terk-50 we get 90's for signal on the meter. As long as it stays above 70 it will be fine. Plus the towers are boosting power for these 3 VHFs.

One guy says it is bad and many more say it is fine for high VHF. SO who to believe?

I disagree I think miles away is just as important as obstructions.

An Antenna can work good for you and bad for someone else. You just have to try it. That is my plan.

Count on it for VHF? Is that a joke? Everyone will have some stations on VHF after transition. So everyone needs VHF imo

That guy who complained didn't say how far he was away from towers?

Do you have the link for HDTV Primer? Thanks

nordloewelabs

05-25-09, 02:59 PM

lexus2108

05-25-09, 04:42 PM

BTW did a Scan and now we get CV-34 Does not seem much to watch. Wonder why spend money on Digital conversion if there is nothing on your station?

reddice

05-25-09, 05:15 PM

i have found very few reviews about the Winegard HD-1080 which is supposed to do High VHF and UHF. on the other hand, i have found a surprising number of good reviews about the RadioShack 15-1892 (UFO) (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034&tab=custRatings). so now i'm giving it consideration as well. does anyone here have it?

i know EscapeVelocity tested it but his thread is very focused on the UHF band -- and only a small number of channels. i wonder if, post-transition, his area will get any digital channels on VHF....

I had that antenna and it was not that great. Although it pulls in about the same reception as my antenna now it suffered much more from multipath problems. Channels like 5 and 9 would come in strong and then drop down to nothing. Amplified did not make a bit of difference in giving me better reception. I still could not get channels 2 and 13. Although the Terk HDTVi does it sometimes it is very brief and quick. It is not amplified and I get better reception as I can get channel 50. With the UFO I could not get channel 50.

reddice

05-25-09, 05:21 PM

I think my problem is that my tuner in my TV stinks. How can someone be able to get a stable signal around 25%. If my tuner drops below 50% it breaks up. Anything below 45% and I get nothing but a black screen. When it hovers in the 50's like channel 4 does it breaks up too much at times. It is in the yellow until it hits the 60's and then it is in the green. I have a Toshiba Regza TV so the digital tuner must not be that good.

nordloewelabs

05-25-09, 06:33 PM

I had that antenna and it was not that great.

hmmm, i'm assuming you're describing the UFO.... sorry, it's my fault. now i realize how ambiguous my previous post. i just edited it for clarity.... well, i've got a few questions for you:

1) how far from those problematic stations are you?
2) what is the antenna you're using now? the HDTVi?
3) which other indoor antennas have you tried? what's your fave?
4) how has been your success at picking high VHF?

after reading "billions and billions" (sorry, Sagan) of reviews, i still dont know what to get. :confused: currently i'm more inclined to buy (in this order) the SS-3000 or the HDTVa. i'll probably get 1 of these 2 *plus* the UFO. i'll only get the UFO as well because it's convenient.... i have 2 RadioShack stores near me.

i wish i could find more reviews on the HD-3000, but i'm happy i have narrowed my choices down to 2 good antennas plus 1 "wild experiment".

nordloewelabs

05-25-09, 06:35 PM

I have a Toshiba Regza TV so the digital tuner must not be that good.

which brands are known to have sensitive tuners? any in particular or it changes from model to model?

Falcon_77

05-25-09, 07:15 PM

Count on it for VHF? Is that a joke? Everyone will have some stations on VHF after transition. So everyone needs VHF imo

That guy who complained didn't say how far he was away from towers?

Do you have the link for HDTV Primer? Thanks

It's not a joke. Yes, most areas will have upper VHF, but there are plenty of UHF only antennas still being sold.

That being said, I have used a Silver Sensor (UHF only) to receive VHF DTV stations, but with LOS to a mountain. Yes, it *can* work, but only trial and error can say for sure.

Here is the link:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

The part about the C2 is at the bottom.

It's going to be interesting to see what works for VHF and where...

reddice

05-25-09, 09:06 PM

Channel 50 is bad for me today. Only getting it in the 40's and it breaks up. Unwatchable. This comes back to the person who can get a stable signal with only 25% strength. What kind of tuner is that. Below 50% for me is break up horror.

Trip in VA

05-25-09, 11:03 PM

reddice: Different tuners use different scales. I have a tuner that decodes at 33%, and another that decodes at 60%. The scales are different, but they decode at roughly the same time.

- Trip

David-the-dtv-ma

05-25-09, 11:30 PM

which brands are known to have sensitive tuners? any in particular or it changes from model to model?

I had a motorola hd100 & hd101. they both would lock up on a weak signal. Both of them failed after 6 months. my RCA 27" hd tv seem to do very well. I also have 3 sdtv converter boxes magnavox, Zenith & RCA. They were all about the same. I even tried a variable attenuator & with a signal meter. I could not see that any one of them worked any better than the others with a weak signal. Antennas, preamps, coax & 300 ohm wire are much a different story.

starry521

05-26-09, 02:29 AM

Hey, I'm new so im a little confused from all the information can anyone help???
I'm in jersey, about 16 miles from nyc. I have old tv and brought a converter box already, now i want to invested in an antenna cuz the $.99 one gives really crappy quality.
Does anyone know which indoor antenna is the best? I'm looking at the Terk HDTVa, does anyone know if its any good?
Thanks

lexus2108

05-26-09, 02:51 AM

POWERFUL

05-26-09, 11:19 AM

starry521

05-26-09, 01:16 PM

thanks for the info guys
I have another question
I read that some of the stations in the city are switching to VHF, how does that affect the kind of antenna i should get?

nordloewelabs

05-26-09, 01:32 PM

thanks for the info guys
I have another question
I read that some of the stations in the city are switching to VHF, how does that affect the kind of antenna i should get?

in my opinion, you should wait till people here report their experiences with the antennas they bought. most here are waiting for June to see if their antennas will handle high VHF. some will only buy an antenna in June (my case). if you're an enthusiast or like to tinker with gadgets, buy your antenna now. otherwise, wait a bit more since you might have to buy several antennas before you settle with any one in particular.

i find EscapeVelocity's table (posted above by Lexus) incomplete because it does not account for any VHF channel. it does serve as a guidance for UHF reception, though. keep an eye on this thread. it will get very busy on June 12 once forum members report their results.

lexus2108

05-26-09, 02:17 PM

in my opinion, you should wait till people here report their experiences with the antennas they bought. most here are waiting for June to see if their antennas will handle high VHF. some will only buy an antenna in June (my case). if you're an enthusiast or like to tinker with gadgets, buy your antenna now. otherwise, wait a bit more since you might have to buy several antennas before you settle with any one in particular.

i find EscapeVelocity's table (posted above by Lexus) incomplete because it does not account for any VHF channel. it does serve as a guidance for UHF reception, though. keep an eye on this thread. it will get very busy on June 12 once forum members report their results.

How do you know it was testing for just UHF? I didn't see where he said that?

nordloewelabs

05-26-09, 02:29 PM

How do you know it was testing for just UHF? I didn't see where he said that?

i read a pretty big chunk of his thread. he lives in South Carolina if my memory serves. either his area is served only with digital channels on UHF, or he has only cared to pick channels in this band. after reading tons of pages of that thread -- with lots of good info on antennas -- i noticed the pattern: he was picking only UHF.

besides, you can also infer the UHF-only nature of his tests by examining the table itself. notice that the channels he has used as headers are: 34, 35, 40, 44, 47, 49 and 50.

if he has tested digital channels on high VHF, i missed it. i've read A LOT of that thread, but not all of it.

lexus2108

05-26-09, 02:45 PM

i read a pretty big chunk of his thread. he lives in South Carolina if my memory serves. either his area is served only with digital channels on UHF, or he has only cared to pick channels in this band. after reading tons of pages of that thread -- with lots of good info on antennas -- i noticed the pattern: he was picking only UHF.

besides, you can also infer the UHF-only nature of his tests by examining the table itself. notice that the channels he has used as headers are: 34, 35, 40, 44, 47, 49 and 50.

if he has tested digital channels on high VHF, i missed it. i've read A LOT of that thread, but not all of it.

Wished there was ONE magic Antenna to work for everyone.

nordloewelabs

05-26-09, 05:44 PM

the Winegard HD-1080 is on sale for $32 on Buy.com (free shipping). given that the price is so good and we are 2 weeks away from analog cut-off, i'm considering the bargain....

p.s: i'm not sure if it's ok to post deals here, so feel free to delete my post and accept my apologies in advance.

p.s.2: for those that dont know, Winegard claims this antenna does high VHF.

ProjectSHO89

05-26-09, 07:34 PM

Wished there was ONE magic Antenna to work for everyone.

Even if there were, the bloggers and kibbutzers would have a list of complaints about it. I can see it now:

Too big
Too small
Price is a rip-off (should be free, I guess)
Doesn't get certain channels well enough to suit them
Wrong color
Needs an amplifier
Shouldn't have an amplifier
Doesn't come with magic beans

Etc, etc, ad nauseum....

I could go on, but why bother....

SnellKrell

05-26-09, 07:42 PM

"Wished there was ONE magic Antenna to work for everyone."

Yes, and we'll call it a Master Antenna!

mw390

05-26-09, 09:36 PM

thanks for the info guys
I have another question
I read that some of the stations in the city are switching to VHF, how does that affect the kind of antenna i should get?

7, 11, and 13 are going back to VHF. I get about a 90-95 clear signal when I use my UHF antenna Channel Master 4228 and Channel Master 7777 pre-amp.
I'm 25 miles east of Manhattan. The reason why 7 and up comes in because there's a big jump in the frequency after channel 5.

ProjectSHO89

05-27-09, 07:01 AM

7, 11, and 13 are going back to VHF. I get about a 90-95 clear signal when I use my UHF antenna Channel Master 4228 and Channel Master 7777 pre-amp.
I'm 25 miles east of Manhattan. The reason why 7 and up comes in because there's a big jump in the frequency after channel 5.

The substantial gap is between 6 and 7. Channel 6 ends at 88 MHz and channel 7 begins at 174 MHz.

Channels 2-6 are defined as low VHF. 7-13 are high VHF. UHF band begins just above 400 MHZ.

njirnet

05-27-09, 07:41 AM

Sorry if someone has already posted, but I didn't see it.
Can someone please post the list of what the Final Channel locations will be after the June?
Thanks

LenL

05-27-09, 08:06 AM

I have the same set up that you have with the CM equipment but I am 30 miles west of the ESB. So lets stay in touch on reception via this forum.

As far as high VHF with this CM equipment I can receive the analog versions of the NY stations but the picture quality is not very good. I can also get NJ PBS digital 58.1 which is VHF 8. Although it will drop out now an then.

I just took my coax off the Optimum connection and put it back on the antenna to monitor results leading up to 6.12 and beyond. (I went back to my cable setup because my OTA results were very up and down from day to day)

I will be posting a few days before 6/12 reminding/asking volunteers to post their reception right before the cut over date and right after so we can all see the impact if any on receprtion.

Falcon_77

05-27-09, 10:53 AM

Sorry if someone has already posted, but I didn't see it.
Can someone please post the list of what the Final Channel locations will be after the June?
Thanks

Here is the listing for the NYC area (analog-virtual/pre/post):

WCBS CBS 2 56 33
WNBC NBC 4 28 28
WNYW FOX 5 44 44
WABC ABC 7 45 7
WWOR MyN 9 38 38
WPIX CW 11 33 11
WNET PBS 13 61 13
WLIW PBS 21 22 21
WNYE ind. 25 24 24
WPXN ion 31 30 31
WXTV uni 41 40 40
WNJU telem 47 36 36
WNJN PBS 50 51 51
WNJB PBS 58 8 8
WMBC ind. 63 18 18
WFME rlg 66 29 29
WFUT telef 68 53 30

WSAH gems 43 42 42
WRNN jewelry 48 48 48
WEDW PBS 49 49 49
WTBY tbn 54 27 27
WLNY ind. 55 57 47
WFTY telef 67 23 23

lexus2108

05-27-09, 07:14 PM

mw390

05-27-09, 08:37 PM

Sorry if someone has already posted, but I didn't see it.
Can someone please post the list of what the Final Channel locations will be after the June?
Thanks

Try looking here http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/welcome.html
The only Vermont I saw was Burlington. Maybe you're near some other metro area

SemiChemE

05-28-09, 01:24 AM

LenL

05-28-09, 09:00 AM

I'm not an expert in this so I can't help you. However I am curious as to where the TV is located in relation to the ESB and WLIW.

Aren't the WLIW transmitters in a different direction than the ESB transmitters? If so your issues are not UHF versus High VHF but direction so you will need to rotate your antenna. Also I would think that you are nicely located being in Queens that a decent UHF antenna like the C2 that also picks up high VHF should work fine for you. Worse case is you could add an amp and not have to deal with 2 antennas.

Just some thoughts I had from reading your post. Being 30 miles out in the hills to the west I envy those of you in Queens who are that close.

LenL

05-28-09, 09:15 AM

have you used this site? I think it is as good if not better than antenna web or TV fool.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

mw390

05-28-09, 09:35 AM

Question for the board. We are in Queens and need to pick up NYC ESB stations and would like WLIW on long island. Using antenna's indoors

I read that some people are using a RCA D920 - Diplexer device to put a Vhf and Uhf antenna's together

Would this RCA D920 - Diplexer work in this case

Use the following antenna's with a diplexer

1) A new Clearstream C2 that is UHF/VHF (50 miles range)
and
2) A Terk-50 which from 10 years experience gets in UHF and VHF very well.
(15 miles range)

Would there be a conflict since they both do UHF/VHF?

I was thinking of doing this just in case the C2 Clearstream does not get in VHF .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------'

Or would this config work

1) DB2/Aspen UHF antenna 50 miles range

and

2) Terk-50 Uhf/Vhf 15 miles range

Do I lose signal using a diplexer?

We will have 3 stations going back to VHF and I do not want to travel to my aunts and spend the day and half to go back to fix the antenna issue.

Thanks guys

PS anyone know the Clearstream's direct website? Can't find it

I'm in Levittown 25 miles east of ESB. WLIW transmitters are in Plainview (you can see them around exit 48 of the Long Isl Exp. on the north side). I have a Sony DHG-HDD250, a DTVPAL DVR and a Panasonic DMR-EZ27. Each of them can pick up WLIW depending on the atmospheric conditions and some better than others. My UHF antenna though points straight to Manhattan, so I guess it depends upon the ATSC tuner in the device you're using. Unfortunately they USED to have an HD signal around the time Channel 13 bought them so they could use their cash to help them out and right after that the HD channel went away. Dont know if they intend to do 1080i or 720p or whatever nexy month

SnellKrell

05-28-09, 09:36 AM

Never, never use antennaweb!

It's filled with misinformation - depending on whether you looking for analogue or digital, there are glaring errors concerning the transmission location of the following stations:

WABC
WCBS
WNBC
WNJU (Won't be on ESB for a while)
WPIX

I'm amazed that both the National Association of Broadcasters and the Consumer Electronics Association support this site!

Additionally, stations in the New York DMA are running PSAs suggesting that viewers go to antennaweb to help them with the transition.

No information would be better than the gross errors!!!

Someone isn't minding the store.

Falcon_77

05-28-09, 11:22 AM

Additionally, stations in the New York DMA are running PSAs suggesting that viewers go to antennaweb to help them with the transition.

No information would be better than the gross errors!!!

Someone isn't minding the store.

I agree. If I had relied on Antennaweb where I live, I would have concluded that it was hopeless. In reality, I can get all the local stations without any significant problems. Antennaweb is really pessimistic on UHF stations for some reason. That isn't even considering all the errors!

TV Fool and the FCC site are much better. It's too bad the PSA's can't at least reference the FCC site.

lexus2108

05-28-09, 11:59 AM

@ Lexus2108:

The RCA D920 Diplexer appears to be for combining an OTA antenna with Satellite (different frequencies) and would probably not work well for combining two OTA antennas. For your situation, you would probably want something like this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ

or if you need a weatherproof version for outdoor antennas:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANTDRCT-COMBNR

You would connect the C2 to the UHF connector (which filters out any VHF from the C2) and the Terk to the VHF connector (which filters out any UHF from the Terk). The filters prevent competing signals from the two antennas from interfering with each other and more importantly, prevent 50% of the signal from one antenna from being transmitted out to the other antenna instead of going to your TV. Such a device does degrade your signal slightly (~0.5db), but this is probably acceptable.

You can avoid the 0.5db penalty by instead using an A-B switch (available at Radio Shack or Home Depot). However, in this case you will need to manually switch between antennas when you switch between a VHF and a UHF channel, so it's probably not worth it.

A slightly cheaper alternative is to use a simple unfiltered splitter/combiner (also available at Radio Shack or Home Depot). Due to the lack of filtering you will lose about 50% of your signal (~3.5 db). While I wouldn't recommend this solution, if your signal is pretty strong it may work perfectly despite the losses. Of course, if the signal is that strong, you'll probably get good enough VHF signal on the C2 and won't need the Terk.

Good Luck!
Wow yours is the best solution I think. Others have told me to use a jointenna. It is confusing on which one to buy and costs $20.

Your $3 device seems to be a great choice in case the C2 Does not work for VHF. The 3 stations going back to VHF are only 7 miles away. The Terk-50 (made before the 55) never had a problem with a VERY STRONG signal with VHF/UHF from the short distance.

So I didn't want to do another 4 to 5 hour round trip to my aunts again for a TV problem.

So my plan is to have a back up idea just in case the C2 does not pick up the VHF signals. I have read conflicting posts that it will or won't work. Enough to concern me that it might not. Of course I talked to some one who has a DB2/aspen UHF only and does pick up a VHF station under 20 miles away. So the C2 should be fine. Crossing fingers.

I am looking to get the best of both worlds. Do not lose the Vhf near stations and Increase my range with UHF to pick up a few more stations. That is the plan.

Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna

Can this be bought in Radio shack or best buy? Or has to be mail order?

Are you sure that if I plug the Terk into the VHF side the device will block out the UHF signal coming from the terk and visa versa with the C2

I do not have to worry that both antennas can do both uhf/vhf?

Wow you made me so happy if this simple back up plan is needed.

Thank You so much

LenL

05-28-09, 03:52 PM

My 2 cents. I have used Antenna Web, TV Fool, and the FCC web site and found none of them very accurate. At best they only give some general guidance as to what you can receive. I have found Anntenna Web far too conservative and TV Fool and the FCC at least in my case to be more reflective of my situation and my moms who is 1/2 mile away and closer to the ESB..... but both of them have lots of errors for both of us. Too many for me to go into but I don't think any of us can trust anything but our actual experience.

Now in all fairness to Antenna Web, if I did not use a preamp with my CM4228 I think it would be pretty accurate. However my experiment to remove my preamp and see what I get is on hold until after 6/12.

rperlberg

05-28-09, 04:35 PM

Someone isn't minding the store.

The store is exactly what they are minding. Antennaweb.org is a front for selling antennas. And you can bet the NAB an CEA are getting pretty substantial kickbacks.

SemiChemE

05-28-09, 07:44 PM

@Lexus2108

The Jointenna performs a similar function to the UHF/VHF combiner, but it is usually designed to allow you to connect an antenna for one specific channel (eg. Channel 11) to another antenna for all of the other channels. This is useful if one channel is oriented in a different direction than the rest (eg. North, while the others are West) and thus you want to combine a North-facing antenna with a West-facing antenna.

Regarding the "Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna":

I really don't have any personal experience with this part beyond the specs listed on the website. Also, I'll admit that I'm always a little skeptical about cheap (<$5) parts from non-name brands. If it works as advertised, it is exactly the right part for your situation, but YMMV. If you want to be guaranteed that the part will work as advertised, go with a name-brand version, like the AntennasDirect part in the other link. Alternatively, you might be able to find a similar part at Radio Shack or a hardware store, the key is to look for something labeled as a UHF/VHF combiner.

Finally, regarding your question about whether the part will block the UHF signal from the Terk and the VHF signal from the C2, that is exactly what the website says it is supposed to do. It shouldn't matter that these antennas are both UHF/VHF, since the filter will only let the VHF portion pass through the VHF terminal and the UHF portion pass through the UHF terminal. (Technically all antennas are UHF/VHF, some are just really bad at one or the other.)

Good Luck!

lexus2108

05-28-09, 08:44 PM

mw390

05-28-09, 09:55 PM

SemiChemE

05-29-09, 12:12 AM

"AntennasDirect part " Which link was posted? Did I miss it? thanks for all the helpful info

You mean this link?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANTDRCT-COMBNR

That's the one.

The AntennasDirect part is probably overkill, since you don't really need the outdoor enclosure or the Antenna Mount Hardware, but I'm pretty certain that it will be a good solid part.

The Pico Macom part is actually better suited for your application (an indoor installation), I just hesitate to give it a full endorsement, since I have no experience with this brand. Worst case, it would probably still do as well as a plain old splitter (~3.5db loss).

lexus2108

05-29-09, 01:21 PM

That's the one.

The AntennasDirect part is probably overkill, since you don't really need the outdoor enclosure or the Antenna Mount Hardware, but I'm pretty certain that it will be a good solid part.

The Pico Macom part is actually better suited for your application (an indoor installation), I just hesitate to give it a full endorsement, since I have no experience with this brand. Worst case, it would probably still do as well as a plain old splitter (~3.5db loss).

Remember this will be a back up plan if the Clearstream C2 does not pick up the close 3 VHF stations after June 12th

I want to be able to get a part that fits in pocket and when/if my aunt complains I pull out the cheap part and say lets try this combiner. Of course I will get hell for having 2 Antenna's

Can never win lol

Since I have 3 stations of VHF then a jointenna would not work? Since it is meant for only 1 channel?

reddice

05-29-09, 01:22 PM

Two more weeks until the transition unless it gets delayed again and it better not. I just hope I can still get channels 7 and 11. If I can get 2 and 13 it will be a bonus.

LenL

05-29-09, 03:05 PM

I have been following your posts and from what I can find on the C2, and from what I can see the VHF transmistters are less than 20 miles away so you should have nothing to worry about.

My only concern is whether you use it inside or outside. Inside you could have a problem. If you place it outside my money is on the C2 working just fine for you given how close you are to the ESB.

AloEuro

05-29-09, 03:26 PM

which tower do they use? Are they in NY?
I really don't know where they have tower, for sure their studio is in NJ,
but from where they sent out signal I don't know.
From roof top looking to downtown Brooklyn, there is one large rfTower(ch.24-25?),
then there are some hi-riser under construction with cranes on top and bet-
ween them in backround, obstructed to my vision, I see 6or8 tops of seems to be rfTowers
perhaps some kind of Combiner, have no clue what it is, but I pointed my outdoor roof Antenna in that direction, hoping to get 47-1, no luck.
Somewhere in Queens I can see 4 Towers, the top and bottom painted in red the middle white, those who live nearby should experiment and point their Antennas in that direction, see what happens.
Between ESB toward uptown there is hi-riser with 60degree roof and on roof is rfTower with blinking light, and between them there is another hi-riser with Antenna, perhaps some of the broad-
casters may put their transformators there to increase their chances to reach already lost clients
who are unable to get their TV signal.

lexus2108

05-29-09, 08:06 PM

Falcon_77

05-29-09, 08:56 PM

Two more weeks until the transition unless it gets delayed again and it better not. I just hope I can still get channels 7 and 11. If I can get 2 and 13 it will be a bonus.

Are any warnings being aired locally about 7, 11 & 13 moving back to VHF? This is more for WABC and WPIX, since so many have had problems with WNET on 61 at low power.

I have yet to see any specific warnings in the LA area for the 4 stations that will move back to upper VHF.

lexus2108

05-29-09, 10:04 PM

Are any warnings being aired locally about 7, 11 & 13 moving back to VHF? This is more for WABC and WPIX, since so many have had problems with WNET on 61 at low power.

I have yet to see any specific warnings in the LA area for the 4 stations that will move back to upper VHF.

Try TVfool to see what stations are changing in June

StudioTech

05-29-09, 10:56 PM

If I can get 2 and 13 it will be a bonus.

If you can get 11 now, you'll have no problem getting 2 on 6/12.

raj2001

05-29-09, 11:39 PM

UHF band begins just above 400 MHZ.

The TV UHF band actually begins at 470MHz (UHF itself begins at 300MHz), and is actually higher than that in NYC since the lower UHF channels have been repurposed for public safety (NYPD, FDNY etc).

LenL

05-30-09, 10:54 AM

lexus2108

05-30-09, 01:32 PM

You may have mentioned this in an earlier post ...regarding your indoor antenna use ....do you at least have a line of sight through a window to the ESB? That would be good. My experience from 30 miles out is that it makes a big difference whether the antenna is indoors or outside. Since you are so close it may not matter that much but it would be very good to at least have a line of sight to the transmitters.

Yea the wall with the TV faces the ESB area. There is also 1 window. I found with the terk-50 it made no differnce if it was on the wall or in window. The C2 may be different.

I think I convinced my aunt to use the NEW part you guys told me about. Of course she hates the 2 antenna idea. I told her just in case.

AloEuro

05-30-09, 03:13 PM

lexus2108

05-30-09, 03:33 PM

I think that many people thinking the broadcasters will go to full power in mid June, hoping that in mid June they will get the desired now truanced stations are postponing
the rude awakening.
Some boxes like Tivax-iNetAccess in Info box convey broadcasters provided info
about Strength-Quality-Speed of sent out signal.
Ch.2-1 WCBS-HD 1920x1080i 30 Hz Stereo, date,hour,program name,rating etc
CH.4-1 WNBC-DT 1920x1080i 30 Hz
4-2 WX Plus 704x480i 30 Hz the same for 4-4
Ch.5-1 WNYW-DT 1280x720p 60 Hz Dolby Surround
Also WABC7 and WWOR9 same as fox5 are in full power

Little confused about your meaning. Are you saying some stations are at full power now? And they are WABC7 and WWOR9 same as fox5

Is there a website that shows the power for each station before and after June 12th?

I also heard that since most analog stations are going silent. That this will clear up the airwaves thus giving a better quality signal

fredd

05-30-09, 04:04 PM

Here in central Jersey it seems the closer we get to the digital transition the more NYC DT stations we lose. First Fox5 contours its southerly directed transmission signal to avoid interference with an A.C. station on UHF-44, now both ABC-DT & CBS-DT have practically disappeared. Are they just neglecting their current broadcast signals to concentrate on the new transition channels or is this the best we can expect here post-transition? WCBS-DT & WABC-DT used to be the strongest and stablest signals I received, but they have slowly gotten weaker and practically unwatchable since last August when they started work at the ESB transmitters. And what genius at the FCC assigned channel 44 to two NY area broadcasters located less than 60 miles apart? Please excuse the rant here, but I was expecting reception to improve with time not get worse.

nordloewelabs

05-30-09, 09:22 PM

i've noticed that, for some stations, the signal strength changes in the course of the week. maybe it has to do with weather alone, maybe it's that plus something else, like tests with the transmitter.

nordloewelabs

05-30-09, 09:52 PM

it will be very funny if June 12 comes and i find out that my improvised loop antenna can handle all channels. :D however, due to the use of high VHF, i know chances are slim.

btw, the other day i did some experiments with a random 6' roll of coax i had laying around the apartment: i placed it near my "loop antenna" and, to my surprise, at a particular spot, the roll of coax was able to improve ABC's and CW's signal from 50 to 70%!

so if any of you guys already have some indoor setup (whatever that is), try to place metallic objects such as cables, wires, steelwool, frying pans, kitchen sink, etc, near or around your current antenna. also, try making a reflector using tinfoil and cardboard (check out EscapeVelocity's thread for a picture), then place it behind your antenna. i know, this all sounds very ninja, but sometimes little tweaks can improve reception by a lot. in sum -- if wifey allows it ;) -- try different things before buying a new antenna.

@AloEuro: i, too, got confused. could you rephrase your post?

LenL

05-31-09, 01:06 PM

TVFool will show you (after you put in your address) the digital transmission from the TV station transmitters to your location in terms of transmission power and also reception signal strength before and after 6/12. The report takes into account your terrain etc...

I quote from TVFOOL:

The most important number to pay attention to is the Noise Margin, in the "NM(dB)" column, for each of your local channels. These values tell you if you are above or below the detection threshold for each station and by how much. Since these values represent the amount of signal "in the air" at your location, you need to have enough margin to account for building penetration, cable loss, splitters, tuner sensitivity, and other factors specific to your setup. If you take the initial NM value for a given channel, add your antenna gain, subtract all the other system losses, and still end up with a value above 0, then you should be able to detect that channel.

Another way to think about Noise Margin is that it's the total amount of noise or signal degradation that you can endure before the signal drops into an unusable state. Things like building penetration, cable loss, and splitters are just a few examples of things that might eat away at your available Noise Margin. If the Noise Margin ends up below zero after accounting for all the losses in your setup, then the channel is probably no longer watchable.

Antenna gain is the only quantity that should ever be ADDed to the NM value. Most antennas will specify their gain in dBd or simply dB, and this is the value that should be used. If an antenna's gain is specified in dBi units, then you need to subtract 2.15 in order to get the equivalent value in dBd units. If an antenna has a built-in amp, the extra gain from the amp SHOULD NOT be included as part of the antenna gain (this actually subtracts from the Noise Margin as we'll see next). Only the raw intrinsic gain of the physical antenna should be added to the Noise Margin.

Be aware that amps and pre-amps will actually cause you to lower your Noise Margin. No matter how much gain an amp or pre-amp claims, it will actually reduce your Noise Margin by the amount listed as the Noise Figure (NF) in its specs. High quality consumer-grade amps usually have a Noise Figure of around 2-3 dB. Lower quality amps or ones that do not specify a noise figure at all will probably have a Noise Figure of around 6-10 dB. This is true for both stand-alone amps as well as antennas with built-in amps. This Noise Margin degradation is caused by limited efficiency of the electronics at the input of the amp prior to the signal being boosted. The primary benefit of the amp is to overcome further NM degradation from "downstream" losses (e.g., long cable runs, splitters, tuners with poor sensitivity, etc.). In other words, you suffer the amp's Noise Figure degradation once, and can usually ignore most of the other losses that occur after it.

DTVintermods

05-31-09, 04:04 PM

LenL

05-31-09, 10:29 PM

Agreeing with you and telling me to remove my preamp and see if I get better reception which I will do after 6/12 in a test. Problem is my antenna is way high on the house and was professionally installed so I need to get a family member who sky dives to do it for me......a very good option for me....

lexus2108

05-31-09, 10:35 PM

David-the-dtv-ma

05-31-09, 11:48 PM

No matter how much gain an amp or pre-amp claims, it will actually reduce your Noise Margin by the amount listed as the Noise Figure (NF) in its specs.

They should not call it NM but signal to noise margin.
The factory NF may be 20dB lower than the actual when the antenna is connected to the tuner/amplifier and the complex impedance of the antenna is mismatched with the input of the tuner amplifier!

One point is the preamps do have a limit of current the transisters can carry. When a weak signal alone goes into a 25 db gain preamp like say -35 the signal will go up to a -10. But the noise of the preamp is brought into tunner also. thus if the pre amp noise is 5 db the signal to noise level may not go up 25 db but instead just 20db because 5 db of the 25 db gain is in noise. Also that is wiht just one channel. If you have a strong channel the current on the transister in the preamp may be exceed the specifications of the design. Thus too many strong channels may make even more noise. Indoor amps like you would connect tv cable to can carry more current because they have bigger transisters. But they may also have more noise. But when they are carrying more channels & maybe strong channels their noise level does not go up. None of the preamp or amps tell the sensitivity or what the weakest signal is that they will detect & amplify. But my guess is the preamps will have detect a weaker signal but like I said the preamps have their other gain/current limits. If an antenna is in a attic I recomend using an indoor amp.

While the analog stations are still on the air you can see the noise on the screen of some of the weaker stations. The snow will not look like regular snow. If any one has a floor in the attic & a portable tv they could try connecting the antenna directly to the antenna & taking now of quality of the screen. Then connect the antenna through an amp or preamp & take note of the snow on the screen. You there will see the noise the amp or preamp caused. I have seen some channels so strong the garbled a good channel. This will be the last time to use analog for noise test. After 6-12-09 when on digital we will have no easy way of knowing what the preamp noise is doing to the digital signal.

LenL

06-01-09, 08:42 AM

My assumption is that if you are a sky diver you are not afraid of heights and would go on the roof easily unlike me...

Falcon_77

06-01-09, 11:09 AM

Try TVfool to see what stations are changing in June

I was thinking about PSA's. Are local PSA's warning viewers of these specific DTV to DTV changes (e.g. UHF > VHF) or are they just generic and say to re-scan?

lexus2108

06-01-09, 11:22 AM

My assumption is that if you are a sky diver you are not afraid of heights and would go on the roof easily unlike me...

UNLESS your ex-wife is on the roof first!:p:p:p

LenL

06-01-09, 01:23 PM

This is not funny for me....once I get over 10 feet on a ladder I start getting uneasy. Definite phobia over being up high. I have tried over the years to get over it but I only got better by being able to go from 5 feet to 10 feet on a ladder. Big improvement but not nearly enough to get me on the second story roof!

So bottom line is I don't care who goes up on the roof as long as they are OK with it and stay safe.

My sky diving daughter is my first choice and she said to let her know when I wanted her to do it. I assume if you sky dive you are not afraid of heights....she does not have my genes that's for sure.

LenL

06-01-09, 01:28 PM

The PSAs I have seen vary. Some in the NY area say you may need to rescan or your equipment may handle the change. Some warn that you may need a new antenna and/or a converter box. Some also point you to a number of websites and phone numbers for help. Some are also warning that you may not receive some of the stations you currently do.

The PSAs have been much better the past few months than they were last year or even early this year.

AloEuro

06-01-09, 03:20 PM

Little confused about your meaning. Are you saying some stations are at full power now? And they are WABC7 and WWOR9 same as fox5

Is there a website that shows the power for each station before and after June 12th?

I also heard that since most analog stations are going silent. That this will clear up the airwaves thus giving a better quality signal

I don't know about website, but conv.boxes like Tivax-iNetSSR1921 in the
INFO box provide broadcasters sent info about signal strength the i and p and
Frame Rate speed at 60 Hz or half at 30 Hz.
Ch.5-1 WNYW-DT 1280x720p Frame Rate speed at 60Hz
Ch.7-1 WABC-HD 1280x720p 60Hz
Ch.9-1 WWOR-DT 1280x720p 60Hz
Ch.31-1 ION 1280x720p 60Hz
Only the primary channels -1 are at full power/speed
Ch.11-1 WPIX 1920x1080i 30Hz WNET13-1 HD the same
Other channels have lower p-i I must go now

SnellKrell

06-01-09, 03:46 PM

"Is there a website that shows the power for each station before and after June 12th?"

Try this - http://www.rabbitears.info/index.php

and click on the "Spreadsheet" Link.

Happy Hunting!

Trip in VA

06-01-09, 06:13 PM

I don't know about website, but conv.boxes like Tivax-iNetSSR1921 in the
INFO box provide broadcasters sent info about signal strength the i and p and
Frame Rate speed at 60 Hz or half at 30 Hz.

Those numbers have nothing to do with signal strength.

- Trip

lexus2108

06-01-09, 09:59 PM

Those numbers have nothing to do with signal strength.

- Trip

I didn't think so ,but since I am not expert I was tending to believe this info

mw390

06-02-09, 01:52 PM

I didn't think so ,but since I am not expert I was tending to believe this info

Here is your channel assignments and broadcast power

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report1/New_York_NY.pdf

redchamberdream

06-02-09, 02:16 PM

mw390

06-02-09, 02:21 PM

lexus2108

06-02-09, 02:30 PM

Here is your channel assignments and broadcast power

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report1/New_York_NY.pdf

Not sure how to read that. Just shows coverage gained not extra power for excising areas???

mw390

06-02-09, 02:33 PM

Not sure how to read that. Just shows coverage gained not extra power for excising areas???

It shows the coverage area and power output of the analog and digital transmitters. It's rather straightforward

lexus2108

06-02-09, 02:35 PM

It shows the coverage area and power output of the analog and digital transmitters. It's rather straightforward
Yes but does not show the old output to compare if power will increase and if so by how much?

Or am I just not getting it?

mw390

06-02-09, 03:12 PM

Yes but does not show the old output to compare if power will increase and if so by how much?

Or am I just not getting it?

I believe that will be the final power output. I think the coverage area
pretty much indicates who will be able to receive the signals. If I'm not mistaken
UHF carries further and doesn't need as much power to cover the same area.

Your handle doesn't indicate where you are located. Where might that be?

DTVintermods

06-02-09, 03:32 PM

hi everyone

i have a question about possibility of getting a signal for over the air HDTV....
i'm only 20 blocks away from empire state building however i lived in 2nd floor and have no access to my roof.... is it even worth to try to get an antenna?
thanks for your help!

After 6/12 WABC, WPIX and WNET will revert from UHF to channels 7,11 and 13. If their current analog indoor reception is noisy, chances are that unless you buy a good Hi-VHF/UHF indoor antenna you may not get reliable DTV reception.
A good indoor antenna that provides directionality and impedance match at Hi-V/UHF will have a minimum size of 20x20x5 inches and I have not seen any such consumer-type antenna. I know some may dispute that.

Falcon_77

06-02-09, 03:58 PM

A good indoor antenna that provides directionality and impedance match at Hi-V/UHF will have a minimum size of 20x20x5 inches and I have not seen any such consumer-type antenna. I know some may dispute that.

I won't dispute physics. This is going to be a problem, when the "best" indoor antennas are rabbit ears. Good gain/directionality is common for UHF indoor antennas, but the size requirements make it impractical for even upper VHF. Low-VHF, well, let's not even go there. :eek:

DTVintermods

06-02-09, 04:22 PM

And I think that made Moviebeam on channel 7 unreliable for over-the-air downloads.

lexus2108

06-02-09, 04:52 PM

I believe that will be the final power output. I think the coverage area
pretty much indicates who will be able to receive the signals. If I'm not mistaken
UHF carries further and doesn't need as much power to cover the same area.

Your handle doesn't indicate where you are located. Where might that be?

queens NY

mw390

06-02-09, 05:39 PM

queens NY

You ought to be ok. My mom was able to pull WABC in on rabbit ears
crystal clear and she lived in Bayside right near the Throgsneck Briidge

nordloewelabs

06-02-09, 06:21 PM

i'm not receiving WNYE 25.1 anymore. did they change anything?

SnellKrell

06-02-09, 06:59 PM

My signal for 25.1 has been going in and out.

No stability.

Usually no problem in receiving it!

SnellKrell

06-02-09, 07:01 PM

Just noticed, no signal at all for 36.1 - WNJU-DT.

nordloewelabs

06-02-09, 07:07 PM

My signal for 25.1 has been going in and out.

No stability.

Usually no problem in receiving it!

my signal on WNYE 25.1 is around 74%, according to my CM-7000. however, the screen is black.

EDIT: just noticed something. the CM-7000 also shows WNYE as 24.1 at 74% strength. unlike what happens on channel 25.1 where i get no picture, at 24.1 the picture is fine....

Trip in VA

06-02-09, 07:20 PM

And I think that made Moviebeam on channel 7 unreliable for over-the-air downloads.

I didn't know Moviebeam ever even got going. Also, I thought it was on 13.

I won't dispute physics. This is going to be a problem, when the "best" indoor antennas are rabbit ears. Good gain/directionality is common for UHF indoor antennas, but the size requirements make it impractical for even upper VHF. Low-VHF, well, let's not even go there. :eek:

Technically, a VHF bowtie is probably better than rabbit ears. That's my experience, anyway. :D

- Trip

DTVintermods

06-02-09, 07:39 PM

I didn't know Moviebeam ever even got going. Also, I thought it was on 13.- Trip

Moviebeam is Disney/ABC's venture, mostly channels 7 but may be other Hi-V channels in some locations. Still it's hard, very hard, to download without errors into indoor antennas on channels 7-13

Trip in VA

06-02-09, 07:41 PM

Moviebeam is Disney/ABC's venture, mostly channels 7 but may be other Hi-V channels in some locations. Still it's hard, very hard, to download without errors into indoor antennas on channels 7-13

Disney might be behind it, but IIRC it's part of National Datacast which is on PBS stations (13). I don't see it in KABC's datastream, or any of the other ABC O&Os I've observed. (I don't have a recent capture of WABC to check against.)

- Trip

SnellKrell

06-02-09, 07:53 PM

moviebeam is feeding programming to medium and small hotels and is planning to provide its service to homes in India and the Middle East.

The following is from moviebeam's Web site.

"moviebeam was initially founded by Disney in 2002 to deliver digital movies to Set Top Boxes (STBs) at home, using the extra bandwidth of television broadcast towers. It was re-launched in 2005 with backing from Disney, Intel and Cisco, and its second generation STB reaching over 10,000 homes in 33 large US markets. It was later purchased by Moviegallery (the 2nd largest video rental chain in the US) in January 2007, which introduced digital delivery to the STB via broadband internet access. moviebeam was acquired by Valuable Technologies Ltd. (VTL) in May 2008 from Moviegallery.

The moviebeam service was conceived specifically for delivery of digital content (primarily movies) to millions of consumer homes using state-of-the-art technology for efficiency and reliability. An estimated $250 million has been spent developing the system/service prior to sale to VTL. moviebeam was operational in over 10,000 homes for nearly 3 years and is a working system with operational excellence."

Falcon_77

06-02-09, 08:14 PM

Technically, a VHF bowtie is probably better than rabbit ears. That's my experience, anyway. :D

- Trip

Yes, but I'm not sure it counts as an indoor antenna, considering the width. I can't see many people trying to put it on top of a TV. :D

I took mine out of the attic, but will try it again when I have some VHF DTV signals available.

Trip in VA

06-02-09, 08:15 PM

Yes, but I'm not sure it counts as an indoor antenna, considering the width. I can't see many people trying to put it on top of a TV. :D

I use mine indoors. :D

- Trip

SnellKrell

06-02-09, 08:22 PM

Falcon -

What about the small, indoor clip on Bowties - usually with 300 ohm ribbon attached?

SubaruB4

06-02-09, 08:41 PM

Did anyone have issues with 9-1 yesterday? it's been so bad sometimes I have to switch to analog just to be able to watch my show.

Are some stations still running on reduced power levels?

Channel 4-1,4-2,4-3 are still pretty crappy however it seems to be better off later during the night time.

Falcon_77

06-02-09, 08:44 PM

Like the Radio Shack one?:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&tab=summary

Those are made for UHF.

The upper VHF ones are about 22" on each side. Mine was a bit wider, so maybe I will shorten the sides to see how it performs.

SnellKrell

06-02-09, 08:47 PM

25.1 is now steady.

36.1 still nothing!

SnellKrell

06-02-09, 08:50 PM

Yes, I was thinking of the UHF version.

Have never seen an upper VHF one.

Once again, I'm learning!

speedlaw

06-02-09, 09:12 PM

Power drop on Tuesday, 6/12 ?

I'm ota only, about 40 miles north of NYC. I normally get 5.1 and 2.1 at 100 or close to it, and 13.1 at 65%.

Tonite, everything is less. 5.1 is only 72% and 13.1 has dropped below 60%. My early sony tuner can't resolve it but my later model Toshiba can.

It appears to be a uniform power drop across all channels. Yes, my antenna and wires are the same, and my analog signals look the same too.

Anyone else ? Pre transition antenna work ?

David-the-dtv-ma

06-02-09, 11:41 PM

hi everyone

i have a question about possibility of getting a signal for over the air HDTV....
i'm only 20 blocks away from empire state building however i lived in 2nd floor and have no access to my roof.... is it even worth to try to get an antenna?
thanks for your help!

Make sure what ever you buy that if does not receive the channels you can return it for a refund. If the indoor antenna does not get VHF high band like ch 7 strong enough & If you nothing is under your bed, you could put a high gain vhf hi band yagi antenna under your bed if your bed is positioned wiht the head board toward the ESB. UHF may go inside stronger Than VHF.

So do like the others said, Try the VHF analog & report to us what you see on the tv screen. While you are doing the test check the analog UHF stations you receive from the ESB. But do it soon because is not much time left to use analog tv stations as a test for signal

Falcon_77

06-03-09, 11:35 AM

Have never seen an upper VHF one.

Here is a link to the upper VHF bow-tie I made. I shortened the elements to 24" last night and the results seem ok on analog, but I will check again after the transition. I will also probably convert it to a 2-bay as it's much more manageable now. Maybe this will be practical indoors after all.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13986962#post13986962

SnellKrell

06-03-09, 11:38 AM

Falcon, thanks as always!

Too large for my Manhattan apartment.

Will wait to see how my Silver Sensor deals with digital 7, 11 and 13!

lexus2108

06-03-09, 01:09 PM

Falcon, thanks as always!

To large for my Manhattan apartment.

Will wait to see how my Silver Sensor deals with digital 7, 11 and 13!
Use it as a FUNKY new AGE HEADBOARD.:D

redchamberdream

06-03-09, 01:39 PM

forgive me being a newbie

why would i want to use VHF analog to test if analog will not be available after 6/12?

LenL

06-03-09, 02:36 PM

VHF analog is readily available for you to test and the assumption is if you can receive it than you should get VHF digital.

I have an alternative for you that may be better. There are VHF Digital stations operating right now. One of them is a NJ PBS WNJB station that is VHF 8 digital or 58.1.

If you can tune it in you are then receiving a high VHF digital station and so should be able to receive 7, 11, and 13 which will be all be high VHF on 6/12. No guarantees here but a good chance.

On the other hand if you can't receive WNJB it means that you probably won't get the others but not certain until you try on 6/12.

I'm not an expert but I hope this helps. Others with more expertise can chime in to help you.

Falcon_77

06-03-09, 04:08 PM

I have an alternative for you that may be better. There are VHF Digital stations operating right now. One of them is a NJ PBS WNJB station that is VHF 8 digital or 58.1.

WNJB is still operating from NJ (West of Plainfield), right? It will be moving to 4TS (by October), so it may not be a good guide at present.

Analog WABC/7 is operating from an Aux facility on 4TS right now I believe, so that may be a good test for WNJB, post-transition. WPIX/11 and WNET/13 should be more accurate indicators for 7, 11 & 13.

Attached are a couple of analog VHF pics. If it looks like the first one, chances are very low. If it looks like the 2nd, chances are much better.

SnellKrell

06-03-09, 05:06 PM

The quality of 7's signal, if one wants to consider it and not 8's, must be judged taking into consideration, as has been mentioned that it is currently emanating from 4 Times Square, not its location as of 6/12 - the ESB.

11 is not necessarily a good guide because it's been operating at 50% of its analogue power as it converts its transmitter to digital in preparation of the transition.

13 is going to be a big question mark.

I tested the ability of the new 13 transmitter and its new digital antenna location and had big, big problems in my apartment in Manhattan. No problems with the current Channel 61 transmission, but the digital 13 - problems!

LenL

06-04-09, 11:29 AM

I have been checking out this sub channel and I have to admit I have found a few of the shows to be excellent. The show that covers hikes (Motion) is excellent. Some great scenery, secrets and tips on what to do in the national and state parks. Also a cooking show that I caught a couple of times has been good. There is also a very good program on medical issues/wellness.

While I don't like the subs drawing to much from the main channel in terms of picture quality 7.2 offers some nice stuff. Better than NBC's subs. I wish NBC would just put CNBC and MSNBC on their 2 subs.

SnellKrell

06-04-09, 11:34 AM

No way will NBC put any of their cable networks on an O-T-A feed.

Approximately 1/2 of a major cable network's revenue comes from fees that a local cable provider pays per subscriber. It translates into a lot of money!

By the way 36.1 was coming fine this morning and now it's signal, one again, when it registers, is so low - no reception.

rperlberg

06-04-09, 12:59 PM

forgive me being a newbie

You are forgiven, my son.

why would i want to use VHF analog to test if analog will not be available after 6/12?

The nature of digital is such that it can be hard to determine the quality of the signal you are receiving. Digital is all or nothing. You either get a perfect picture or a blank screen. Analog TV acts like a signal tester allowing you to see every reflection and blip of interference right there on the screen.

I have an alternative for you that may be better. There are VHF Digital stations operating right now. One of them is a NJ PBS WNJB station that is VHF 8 digital or 58.1.

If you can tune it in you are then receiving a high VHF digital station and so should be able to receive 7, 11, and 13 which will be all be high VHF on 6/12. No guarantees here but a good chance.

On the other hand if you can't receive WNJB it means that you probably won't get the others but not certain until you try on 6/12.

I can get channel 3.1 which is on VHF channel 3, but I've never been able to get the slightest hint of 58.1/(8). I get all of the VHF analog stations crystal clear.

Location: Brooklyn, NY 11236

LenL

06-04-09, 01:33 PM

I'm about as far away from 8 (58.1) as you are and I can get it. The transmitters are in NJ so you can't point your antenna at the ESB and receive it...just in case you did not know. I suspect you know this....not sure why I get it and you don't. However I do get it and my antenna is not pointed at it optimally as I am pointed at the ESB and the transmitters are to the right of my ESB direction. So I think it is a very good sign that when and if 58.1 moves to NY I will get it even better even though it might be further away.

LenL

06-04-09, 01:37 PM

nordloewelabs

06-04-09, 01:38 PM

While I don't like the subs drawing to much from the main channel in terms of picture quality 7.2 offers some nice stuff. Better than NBC's subs. I wish NBC would just put CNBC and MSNBC on their 2 subs.

i'd rather get USA, but that would never happen, i think. but i agree with you, CNBC or MSNBC would be great! according to Wikipedia, NBC owns the channels below. there are better options (Edit: better than the sub-channels they are broadcasting now).

A&E Television Networks (25%)
Bravo
Chiller
CNBC
MSNBC
Mun2
Oxygen
Qubo (kids channel)
Sci Fi
ShopNBC
Sleuth
Telemundo Internacional
The Weather Channel
Universal HD
USA Network
Universal Sports (50%)
Weatherscan

Edit: NBC partially owns Qubo, which is a sub-channel of Ion right now.

SnellKrell

06-04-09, 01:39 PM

That's rich, I have to provide you proof?

LenL

06-04-09, 02:12 PM

No. Don't get me wrong. Not trying to bust your chops on this. I am simply asking if this was an assumption or you knew this from something you saw. That's all. I'm hoping that the door is still open for NBC to give us some better programming on their sub channels since they already have some much better stuff out there on cable and satellite as we just had posted a list (thank you) of all the programming coming from NBCs owners.

nordloewelabs

06-04-09, 02:16 PM

LenL has got a point. NBC already has channels from Cable and Satellite. my guess is that, initially, they will only put low-key stations on their sub-channels....as a way to "try the waters". once people get used to digital broadcast and the concept of sub-channels, they will get better stuff on their "subs". the fact that they have dumped the Weather channel in favour of NY Non-Stop shows they have an interest in improving. perhaps, in 12 months, they will make more changes.

it's obvious that, the higher the number of sub-channel viewers, the better for NBC. and, given that they already have the frequency and equipment in place, there's no reason for them not to boost viewership. unless, of course, they are bound to some contract that explicitly prohibits them from broadcasting a paid channel over the air.... however, even if they are, we should remember that contracts expire and things change.

does anyone know of any plans by CBS, FOX, MY9 or CW to start using sub-channels? it's strange that these big networks dont have any subs while ION has 2!!! :confused:

SnellKrell

06-04-09, 02:22 PM

I have worked in television for many years - NBC and other owners of "Cable Networks" license their programming to both cable operators and satellite providers for monthly fees that are based on the number of subscribers they provided.

This is the business model and there's nothing currently that would lead one to believe that it's going to change in the foreseeable future.

I agree with you about about Channel 4's sub-channel programming. NY Nonstop is an embarrassment! But you have to realize it is coming to your from the same management that on a daily basis is killing Channel 4 News.

mets18

06-04-09, 02:48 PM

I understand your point but just about everything OTA is on cable or satellite and vice versa.

This is just an absurd comment. If just about everything that is on cable is on OTA then nobody would spend $50+ a month on cable.

NYC10033

06-04-09, 02:49 PM

Two or three days ago I spent a few minutes listening to 50-3 (Audio Only subchannel) NJN2 and heard the speaker reading some literary stuff that contained "the F bomb".

That surprised me.

Also 50-3 has some really unpolished (non-announcer) people reading stuff. I have no idea what 50-3 is about.

I have a feeling that my indoor UHF antenna won't work well for me to receive DTV channels that relocate to VHF. I might buy a $20 Radio Shack indoor antenna.

Why isn't ONE unused VHF channel (in NYC metro area) 8, 10,12 used to broadcast tests so the public can test their equipment for DTV VHF reception PRIOR to June 12th?

My landlord will not permit tenants to install rooftop antennas. All antennas were removed several years ago when the roof was waterproofed. The landlord claims that the antenna, people walking on the roof, caused the roof to leak. (BS). I think the landlord got some payoff from the cable company (Time Warner) to eliminate rooftop antennas to get people to subscribe to cable. I've used an indoor antenna for years since my rooftop antenna was removed, without any notice, and my reception has been AWFUL. DTV has been a BIG improvement - all I need is 13 and ideally 21 WLIW and I'll be really happy.

SnellKrell

06-04-09, 02:56 PM

Falcon_77

06-04-09, 03:34 PM

I can get channel 3.1 which is on VHF channel 3

What station is this? Is it WBQM-LP? I see an app for it on 3 with Brooklyn as the Community of License. What antenna are you using? Are you above the ground floor?

Thanks,

supersuper

06-04-09, 04:22 PM

what are you smoking? who would pay for a transmitter on 8,10,12 just for testing purposes. either you get a signal or you dont. even if there were 8,10,12 test it would interfere with analog 7,9,11,13 genius

Two or three days ago I spent a few minutes listening to 50-3 (Audio Only subchannel) NJN2 and heard the speaker reading some literary stuff that contained "the F bomb".

That surprised me.

Also 50-3 has some really unpolished (non-announcer) people reading stuff. I have no idea what 50-3 is about.

I have a feeling that my indoor UHF antenna won't work well for me to receive DTV channels that relocate to VHF. I might buy a $20 Radio Shack indoor antenna.

Why isn't ONE unused VHF channel (in NYC metro area) 8, 10,12 used to broadcast tests so the public can test their equipment for DTV VHF reception PRIOR to June 12th?

My landlord will not permit tenants to install rooftop antennas. All antennas were removed several years ago when the roof was waterproofed. The landlord claims that the antenna, people walking on the roof, caused the roof to leak. (BS). I think the landlord got some payoff from the cable company (Time Warner) to eliminate rooftop antennas to get people to subscribe to cable. I've used an indoor antenna for years since my rooftop antenna was removed, without any notice, and my reception has been AWFUL. DTV has been a BIG improvement - all I need is 13 and ideally 21 WLIW and I'll be really happy.

NYC10033

06-04-09, 04:24 PM

Channels 8, 10 and 12 are not authorized to broadcast in the NY DMA.

Those channels are being used by surrounding markets.

If, and that's a huge "if," what you suggest were to happen, the interference would be a huge problem.

Also, you haven't considered the tremendous cost in a station/stations building a new temporary facility to test what you suggest.

Further, as an example, a test transmitting Channel 10 in now way would represent what might be received on Channel 11 in the future.

Good try, but no cigar!

Why do you claim that a limited duration (lets say 15 minutes, every night at 12 AM) DTV test on Channel 10 would not represent expected reception on VHF Channel 11?

VHF Hi ranges from 174 - 216 MHz.

Channel 10 is in the middle of the VHF Hi band.

Channel 10 is 192 - 198 Mhz
Channel 11 is 198 - 204 Mhz

Plus the NYC DMA is the larget market in the US - 7.4 million households. Why should 7.4 million households suddenly find out on same day that their current antenna is inadequate for DTV reception on VHF Hi?

There will be sudden run on new antennas, old antennas being junked, complaints.

You get the picture. :D

supersuper

06-04-09, 04:24 PM

cw already has LATV as a subchannel. ION has subchannels but they are crap and pay ION for carriage.

does anyone know of any plans by CBS, FOX, MY9 or CW to start using sub-channels? it's strange that these big networks dont have any subs while ION has 2!!! :confused:

supersuper

06-04-09, 04:26 PM

out of those 7.4 million how many still rely on an antenna? wake up most people have cable or satellite.

Why do you claim that a limited duration (lets say 15 minutes, every night at 12 AM) DTV test on Channel 10 would not represent expected reception on VHF Channel 11?

VHF Hi ranges from 174 - 216 MHz.

Channel 10 is in the middle of the VHF Hi band.

Channel 10 is 192 - 198 Mhz
Channel 11 is 198 - 204 Mhz

Plus the NYC DMA is the larget market in the US - 7.4 million households. Why should 7.4 million households suddenly find out on same day that their current antenna is inadequate for DTV reception on VHF Hi?

There will be sudden run on new antennas, old antennas being junked, complaints.

You get the picture. :D

NYC10033

06-04-09, 04:33 PM

out of those 7.4 million how many still rely on an antenna? wake up most people have cable or satellite.

Apparently enough to warrant OTA DTV.

SnellKrell

06-04-09, 04:34 PM

Huh?????

StudioTech

06-04-09, 04:37 PM

does anyone know of any plans by CBS, FOX, MY9 or CW to start using sub-channels? it's strange that these big networks dont have any subs while ION has 2!!! :confused:

Actually, WPXN (ION) has 3 subs. WCBS had no plans for subs, thankfully. The reason I say thankfully is you have to remember that any subchannels added will take away bandwidth from the main channel, which usually means a degraded picture. If you don't believe me, just look at WABC.

NYC10033

06-04-09, 04:38 PM

StudioTech

06-04-09, 04:40 PM

^^^ Wow, just.... wow!

DTVintermods

06-04-09, 05:39 PM

Actually, testing may not be needed..
For example WVUE has filed with the FCC to continue DTV on ch 29 instead of ch 8. Below is the first paragraph from their submission.
There's also anecdotal evidence of reception problems on Hi-VHF DTV channels in Denver and Atlanta

EXPEDITED TREATMENT REQUESTED
EXHIBIT 21
Louisiana Media Company, LLC WVUE-DT, New Orleans, LA
Request for Special Temporary Authority to
Facility ID No. 4149
Restore Pre-Transition Digital Television Service and to Terminate Service on Post-Transition Channel
Louisiana Media Company, LLC (“Louisiana Media”), licensee of full-power commercial television station WVUE-DT, New Orleans, Louisiana (Facility ID No. 4149) (“WVUE” or the “Station”), hereby requests special temporary authority to restore digital service on WVUE’s pre-transition digital channel 29 and to terminate digital service on WVUE’s posttransition digital channel 8. As described below, a significant number of viewers throughout WVUE’s predicted service area have reported (and are continuing to report) the complete loss of digital service from WVUE since the Station began to operate exclusively on digital channel 8. Accordingly, Louisiana Media respectfully requests expedited processing of this request so that WVUE may promptly restore service to disenfranchised viewers and continue to compete effectively in the New Orleans television market. The proposed channel 29 facilities will replicate the service area formerly served by WVUE’s analog channel 8 facilities and will ensure that all of the Station’s former analog and pre-transition digital viewers will once again receive service.

lexus2108

06-04-09, 05:51 PM

What station is this? Is it WBQM-LP? I see an app for it on 3 with Brooklyn as the Community of License. What antenna are you using? Are you above the ground floor?

Thanks,

Any shows? What is on it?

WBQM-LP is a low-power television station licensed to Brooklyn, New York as an affiliate of Cornerstone Television. It is owned by Renard Communications Corp., and broadcasts on VHF channel 3.

On August 17, 2007, Renard Communications announced that would sell WBQM-LP, along with sister station WMBQ-CA to Equity Media Holdings for $8 million. [1] However, the transaction had a closing deadline set for June 1, 2008, and either party could cancel the sale if it were not completed by then. As of this revision, the sale has not been consummated. [2]

As of December 8, 2008 Equity Media Holdings is in chapter 11 bankruptcy.

nordloewelabs

06-04-09, 06:22 PM

The reason I say thankfully is you have to remember that any subchannels added will take away bandwidth from the main channel, which usually means a degraded picture. If you don't believe me, just look at WABC.

i dont watch ABC so i cant tell how much the sub-channels mess up the main channel. what i can tell is that NBC looks fine, despite the subs. so maybe ABC has been excessively sloppy in some way.

btw, in my CM-7000, MY9 is s sub-channel of FOX. and i get each of those 2 stations in 3 different channels.

SnellKrell

06-04-09, 06:27 PM

The difference between NBC's subchannels and ABC's is that ABC broadcasts one of the subchannels in HD - stealing more bandwidth from 7.1!

lexus2108

06-04-09, 06:46 PM

i dont watch ABC so i cant tell how much the sub-channels mess up the main channel. what i can tell is that NBC looks fine, despite the subs. so maybe ABC has been excessively sloppy in some way.

btw, in my CM-7000, MY9 is s sub-channel of FOX. and i get each of those 2 stations in 3 different channels.

Yes, ABC has 2 HD channels and NBC just one

supersuper

06-04-09, 06:57 PM

Apparently enough to warrant OTA DTV.

there is no doubt there will be thousands if not millions across the country unprepared. but out of 7.4 million homes in nyc area, most have cable or satellite. the number that rely on ota is nowhere near 7.4 million einstein.

supersuper

06-04-09, 06:58 PM

The same people who paid for the $40 coupons for DTV converter boxes, genius?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2009/01/dtv_coupon_program_out_of_mone.html

reddice

06-04-09, 09:55 PM

out of those 7.4 million how many still rely on an antenna? wake up most people have cable or satellite.

I still watch some local channels OTA even though I have them on Dish Network because the PQ is much better than the over compression of the Dish Network feeds.

BrooklynGal

06-04-09, 09:56 PM

[QUOTE=
Attached are a couple of analog VHF pics. If it looks like the first one, chances are very low. If it looks like the 2nd, chances are much better.[/QUOTE]
Since i currently don't get 13 except via analog passthrough, i've invested plenty of time getting it (& 50) as perfect as I can.
Using analog pass through on the Zenith DT901 & fiddling with UFO's position, the number setting for the UHF, leaving my amp on 3, & then adjusting the angle & length of the rabbit ears, channels 13 (& 50) usually are gorgeous! (with some slight static & the occasional interference blip appearing periodically to make me tear my hair out) though there are bad hair days here & there. Channel 2 usually makes picture 1 look like a masterpiece of clarity, though. However, since 2 is low vhf & will transmit via UHF, I haven't really bothered getting it right ;) 7 & 11 obviously are important to me, though. Their reception is less much less consistent than 13, ranging from I can't get reception at all to reception which varies between pic 1 & 2. I haven't found a "magic" position or series of adjustments that works for one of them yet, either. Ditto for channels 4, 5, & 9. I'm guessing since on occasion I can get each of them as good as pic 2 (but never more than 1 or 2 stations at once out of them all!) that the rest of the time the issue is something other than my antenna. I wish I knew what it is, though, in case it's something I can adjust or adjust to.

Of the 3 vhf stations, it's PBS that I'll be most unhappy not to receive, so for now I'm waiting for the moment of truth & hoping that with the increase in power, I really will get 13 digitally. Of course, I'd still like to watch good morning america, dancing with the stars, olympics, & the honeymooners & old movies, so I hope 7 & 11 work out as well.

reddice

06-04-09, 10:02 PM

Me too BrooklynGal. Right now channel 7 is my strongest channel but I have no idea how it would come on high VHF. I know people say but look it you can get the analog channel good. I have gotten the analog channels clear but when it is digital I got nothing. Just look at CV 34. Analog was clear and watchable. Now that they switched it over to digital all I get is a black low signal screen or a bunch of pixlated boxes on screen. I just hope my channel 7 and 11 reception is not like that in 8 days.

Also I would love to be able to get channel 13 when it moves to high VHF since the Dish Network feed is pathetic at best. They take the 16:9 screen and downcoverted it to 480i and then center crop it to 4:3 so many programs have the thirteen HD logo but it is cut off. They refuse to carry in it HD except for DirecTV and TWC which has it in HD.

raj2001

06-05-09, 11:56 AM

rperlberg

06-05-09, 03:41 PM

I understand your point but just about everything OTA is on cable or satellite and vice versa.

Unless you have proof NBC has some contractual mandate that does not allow it to feed CNBC or MSNBC to OTA then I have hope. Also why would cable allow them to feed Satellite and not OTA?

First of all, Satellite is not the same as OTA. It's encrypted and you have to pay for it.

Think of it this way. Suppose you own a store that sells Hershey bars. Then one day Hershey sets up a stand in front of your store where they give away Hershey bars for free. It won't be long before your customers figure out that there's no sense in them buying the bars from you when they can get them for free. As a result you stop buying bars from Hershey since no one is buying them from you. If NBC starts giving away their cable channels for free, the cable companies won't want to pay as much for them.

SnellKrell

06-05-09, 05:45 PM

9 and 5 "back up" each other with SD versions on their .2 subchannels.

So this means 9.2 is a SD version of 5.1, and 5.2 is a SD version of 9.1.

Bingo!

rperlberg

06-05-09, 05:51 PM

What station is this? Is it WBQM-LP? I see an app for it on 3 with Brooklyn as the Community of License. What antenna are you using? Are you above the ground floor?

Thanks,

You're probably right, but I have no data to back that up. I've attached a copy of the Station ID card.

It's been a source of annoyance to me that of all the digital channels, this is the one I get the best.

I'm currently using an old Yagi antenna on the roof of my 2 story house. It's pointed toward the WTC site. I haven't had a chance to go up on the roof to try reorienting it. I've also done some experiments with indoor rabbit ears but have not been able to get anything more than 0 signal on channel 8. I'm using a Dish Network TR-40 CECB which allows you to monitor the signal on a real (not virtual) channel. I just got a Winegard MS-2002 omnidirectional amplified roof antenna. I tried it out indoors and the results were promising, but I still wasn't able to get anything I'm not getting with the Yagi. I'm planning on having it installed on the roof next week.

rperlberg

06-05-09, 05:54 PM

Any shows? What is on it?

WBQM-LP is a low-power television station licensed to Brooklyn, New York as an affiliate of Cornerstone Television. It is owned by Renard Communications Corp., and broadcasts on VHF channel 3.

It's all religious programming.

Trip in VA

06-05-09, 06:14 PM

You're probably right, but I have no data to back that up. I've attached a copy of the Station ID card.

Definitely WBQM-LD.

- Trip

lexus2108

06-05-09, 07:14 PM

It's all religious programming.

I thought 29.1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 Is the Religious Man on 29.1 and the rest is just audio religious stations.

reddice

06-05-09, 09:59 PM

I thought 29.1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 Is the Religious Man on 29.1 and the rest is just audio religious stations.

They are all a waste but 29 is a real big waste and it really peeves me off that I get that station the strongest and it being the furthest away. I can peak it at 96% and it is 15 miles away but you heard me complain about that over and over again since I started posting here. The only thing the channel is useful and I watch sometimes is ATN News which is not religious garbage but actually world news. It ain't that bad. The rest of the time it is that old geezer babbling about the world is going to end in two years. What a whack job.

The real test will be next Friday when I will finally know how high VHF digital reception is. I hope I can still get channel 7 and 11 next week.

LenL

06-06-09, 10:27 AM

You missed my point big time and I guess the way I worded it was to blame. The discussion was all about contractual issues with cable stations owned by NBC going OTA.

My point was that OTA channels are all pretty much carried by cable providers, Verizon FIOS, and satellite providers and the same can be said in reverse. Another words 4.1 is carried by cable and satellite. There doesn't seem to be any contractual issues with it also being broadcast OTA. Cable came first and they did not stop NBC from providing programming to satellite or even to FIOS. I believe you can get CNBC and MSNBC on satellite and Verizon FIOS. So if there were NO contractual issues with this programming going there why would there be a contractual issue with CNBC or MSNBC being broadcast OTA?

That was where this thread was going. We were not discussing sending HBO, or Yes network over OTA or that the same 100 plus or so channels you get via cable you can get OTA today.

LenL

06-06-09, 10:37 AM

Huh?

Look at the subchannels like 7.2, 7.3, 4.2, 4.3,11.2, 13.2 etc.... They are all on cable and OTA.

I don't see cable in these cases saying to the station owners we are not paying you cause you also do OTA or we are cutting what we give you.

Secondly if MSNBC and CNBC went to FIOS and Satellite like they have, this is the real competitors for cable not OTA. If cable was not mad about this they surely are not going to be upset about CNBC and MSNBC also being sent to a relatively small OTA audiance.

For MSNBC and CNBC it would mean more advertising revenue that they are missing out on and more profit.

I have not heard anything factual yet as to why this is not possible. Some good guesses...but just guesses. I still have hope!

LenL

06-06-09, 11:13 AM

A lot of the shows on cable etc. you can watch on your PC....so add this to the list of reasons why it makes little sense not to have some cable shows like CNBC and MSNBC on OTA.

ProjectSHO89

06-06-09, 11:23 AM

A lot of the shows on cable etc. you can watch on your PC....so add this to the list of reasons why it makes little sense not to have some cable shows like CNBC and MSNBC on OTA.

Len,

You just don't seem to understand.

Those are stations that both viewers and signal distributors (ie, cable and satellite) are WILLING to pay for and that are viable vehicles for selling commercials.

Not even a government bureaucrat or politician (well, maybe them) is going to give away for free something that they already get paid for. Not even Immelt is that stupid.

Look, send a suggestion to GE and see if they bother responding. Those are GE's properties you're trying to give away.

nordloewelabs

06-06-09, 11:42 AM

regarding this NBC debacle.... if their concern is indeed the "cannibalization" of their paid TV market, they could broadcast a mix bag of CNBC and MSNBC shows on channel 4.2. it's to NBC's best interest to air something that will attract a higher number of viewers. if they can increase their audience without extra costs, it makes sense to do it. remember, they already own the equipment and the frequency.

NBC is wasting resources with NY Non-Stop. and the same goes to the other networks without any sub-channel or with lame ones. however, as someone pointed out, the networks should only use SD on the sub-channels.

i dont know whether this is "contractually" possible or not, but the fact remains, sub-channels are being wasted with lame programming. they should either put something good in them or disable them completely -- which ultimately would result in better picture quality on the main 4.1 channel.

lexus2108

06-06-09, 12:47 PM

lexus2108

06-06-09, 12:55 PM

They are all a waste but 29 is a real big waste and it really peeves me off that I get that station the strongest and it being the furthest away. I can peak it at 96% and it is 15 miles away but you heard me complain about that over and over again since I started posting here. The only thing the channel is useful and I watch sometimes is ATN News which is not religious garbage but actually world news. It ain't that bad. The rest of the time it is that old geezer babbling about the world is going to end in two years. What a whack job.

The real test will be next Friday when I will finally know how high VHF digital reception is. I hope I can still get channel 7 and 11 next week.

So is channel 3 and 29 the same or different religious stations?

Trip in VA

06-06-09, 01:56 PM

So is channel 3 and 29 the same or different religious stations?

3-1 is Cornerstone (based out of WPCB in Pittsburgh)
29-1 is an independent religious station.
42-0 is Daystar (based out of KDTN in Dallas)
54-1 is TBN (based out of KTBN in Los Angeles I think)

- Trip

AloEuro

06-06-09, 02:56 PM

Here is your channel assignments and broadcast power

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report1/New_York_NY.pdf

Thank you for posting the above www gov reference, I am aware that the kw are the real power, and I thought they were running their broadcasts in
1000s of kw.
Really I was surprised how little power wnet13 uses, now I lost sympathy for them, it is no surprise that many people can not get that ch.13, thanks again.

LenL

06-06-09, 02:59 PM

Trip in VA

06-06-09, 03:09 PM

Secondly you assume that they get a lot of money from cable, satellite, and fios. That may be, not sure they get all that much, but sending it OTA does nothing to that income stream.

Until the cable company says "we're not paying you as much for it since if people want it, they can get it for free." It's not a selling point for cable/satellite if it's available OTA, and thus is less valuable to them.

Then the tiny bit of extra OTA audience doesn't look so significant, especially in a depressed advertising market. Money from cable/satellite providers doesn't change too much unless a significant number of people drop subscription service, which I don't think has happened yet.

- Trip

LenL

06-06-09, 03:20 PM

AloEuro

06-06-09, 03:21 PM

25.1 is now steady.

36.1 still nothing!

The other day I have punched in 36, it went to 47-1, and surprise surprise the picture came out, made Add on Scan to memory.
And another big surprise 47-1 Telemundo has most of the 1hour Novellas
bilingual meaning it has English subtitles. I've sampled some daytime, evening
and night time novellas all with English subtitles.
It made me also to realize that all the broadcasters have no idea about the inner workings of the conv. boxes in regard to CC, they do'nt know the
difference between ACC and DCC whatever it means, time up must go

SnellKrell

06-06-09, 03:50 PM

"Really I was surprised how little power wnet13 uses, now I lost sympathy for them, it is no surprise that many people can not get that ch.13, thanks again."

Channel 13 deserves better and an understanding that they were assigned Channel 61 as the station's digital frequency before the transition. I'm sure they would have preferred a stronger signal - get more viewers - get more donations!

With federal, state and corporate funding scraping bottom, the station has had to fire staff members. 13 and 21 are in financial trouble.

I only hope that 13 will be granted more power for its new 13-digital signal and have the money to make it happen.

Those are the facts - not 13's choice at all!

AloEuro

06-06-09, 04:02 PM

Telemundo 47-1 Spanish broadcast has most of the novellas also in English, before
the show they post their CC CC1 Espanol
CC3 English
But I think that their posting like that may to be good perhaps for cable/satelites, but
not for DTv converter boxes. Here you use Services.
The broadcast language is always Service1, thus 47-1 CC-S1 Espanol ,the Service1
make all 4 CC -CC1,2,3,4, and all 4 Text -Text1,2,3,4, in service language that is in
spanish. On 47-1Telemundo the Service2 is English.
The english broadcasters Service1 is in english thus the Service2 would be whatever language they will advertise on their show. CC1English CC3Espanol.
When you watch 47-1 go to menu- to DCC- highlight Service2-must OK-exit, play with it. Sometime the English CC does not come, apparently the men in estudio respon-
sible for it did not punch in the keys; enjoy
I wish the rest of the spanish TV like cv34, 41, 68 made their programmas also with
english subtitles.

DTVintermods

06-06-09, 05:03 PM

SnellKrell

06-06-09, 05:07 PM

WNYE is owned by the city of New York, it was originally the television station of what was once the Board of Education.

WNET already has a sister station it doesn't need another one especially now. Before this financial crunch it took over WLIW.

Just the cost of being forced to go digital is huge, no less going HD.

Trip in VA

06-06-09, 05:08 PM

Why can't WNYE and WNET be merged into one strong entity? Such merger will save a lot of operational ,money, get city contribution and have stronger programming on digital 13.

The FCC doesn't allow one company to own three stations in a market unless those stations are satellites. (Don't cite KWHY, that's a waiver from a time when there was a triopoly rule proposed that fell through.)

- Trip

DTVintermods

06-06-09, 05:10 PM

I know all these but both station are struggling financially and contributions, especially now, are not enough. So what choices do they have?

nordloewelabs

06-06-09, 05:39 PM

I only hope that 13 will be granted more power for its new 13-digital signal and have the money to make it happen.

the PBSs have always been my favourite channels. i hope i can get 13's signal next Friday. if i cant, i'll have to wait till the other PBS (WNJB, i think) comes to the island in October.

btw, there are a lot of PBS shows available for free streaming on their site (www.pbs.org/video (http://www.pbs.org/video)). if you cant receive decent DTV signal after the transition, get the second best: PBS online.

dturturro

06-06-09, 07:51 PM

the PBSs have always been my favourite channels. i hope i can get 13's signal next Friday. if i cant, i'll have to wait till the other PBS (WNJB, i think) comes to the island in October.

btw, there are a lot of PBS shows available for free streaming on their site (www.pbs.org/video (http://www.pbs.org/video)). if you cant receive decent DTV signal after the transition, get the second best: PBS online.

And DONATE! ;)

lexus2108

06-06-09, 11:39 PM

And DONATE! ;)

No money after new boxes and antenna's:rolleyes:

ProjectSHO89

06-07-09, 11:55 AM

I found this related discussion about MSNBC going OTA. The fellow has some numbers on the economics and a poll which I voted on. Some good stuff here an vote in the poll for whatever it's worth! I hope I posted the link ok....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/4/727354/-Change-the-game:-Broadcast-MSNBC-over-the-air

I guess it's probably only the Daily Kook audience that would want MSNBC to be free OTA anyway..... They seem to have the same clientele...

I took MSNBC and their twits off my satellite' channel menu years ago and haven't missed them yet.

reddice

06-07-09, 12:34 PM

LenL

06-07-09, 01:10 PM

Yup....I agree with you. If you don't like MSNBC don't watch it. Same for any other channels you don't like. We all don't have the same viewing tastes. Not sure why you have to be critical of those who like MSNBC but I can guess.

There are many of us who would prefer to watch CNBC and MSNBC over what is on the NBC sub Channels now.

lexus2108

06-07-09, 02:04 PM

DTVintermods

06-07-09, 03:37 PM

Channel 13 is my most wanted station that I would like to get. I hope I can get it come Friday without losing Channels 7 and 11. Although NJN Channel 50 is now in 1080i and does show HD programs the signal lately has not been that reliable. In the afternoon it was stronger but in the evening it was weaker and it can break up too much.

I have a question about NJN Channel 8. If they are staying in NJ until October would it still interfere when Channel 7 moves to RF 7. I hope they don't reduce the power on RF Channel 7.

There will be two kinds of adjacent channel interference from channel 8 into 7 and from 7 into 8. First, where the signals overlap, if channel 8's signal is stronger by at least 26dB, channel 7 will be victimized. Second, there's a spillover at the ch 8 transmitter into the two adjacent channels. This spillover is supposed to be controlled by a filter specified by the FCC but the actual performance is hard to verify. Anyway, this spillover from channel 8 into 7 is actually another form of cochannel interference.
Bear in mind that interference does not necessarily means that you cannot decode. It always means that the signal to noise margin is lowered thus making reception less reliable.

David-the-dtv-ma

06-07-09, 04:07 PM

Yes I think I will contact NBC about it.

They would not be giving anything away for free as they will get money from more advertisers. The advertisers pay....the viewers don't.

Secondly you assume that they get a lot of money from cable, satellite, and fios. That may be, not sure they get all that much, but sending it OTA does nothing to that income stream. It will actually bring them more money as they increase the audience for the shows.

Thirdly you assume that everyone who has cable etc is watching those shows. The fact is there are a large number of cable, satellite and FIOS customers who are complaining they are paying for programming they don't watch and want a new pay as you view model so they only pay for what they watch. When that happens and it will, that is going to turn the economics of CNBC and MSNBC and a lot of cable shows with small audiences on their heels. Their only revenue may go back to being advertisers or they go belly up....which is what should happen to a lot of what is on cable.

I agree. I got rid of the cable because I did not like paying for channels I did not want. I told them to lower my monthly charge & remove some of the channels. they said they were not going to do it. I told them i could make them do it. I did make them take the channels off & lower the bill. the bill went down along wiht the channels, down to 0. No channels & no money. But my antenna is still great. ha ha

I am sure it comes down to seeing where the most money is. What the tv cable will pay or will the advertisers pay the higher price.