yeah I've been looking at the FCC maps as far as the analog and digital and what area it serves and the ERP what I have noticed is most of the digital stations run less power and are lower in elevation as well.

I can't get 7,11 and 13 now and I have a roof antenna!

I'm in upper Westchester and am using a Winegard SS-2000. It gets all the UHF and FM stations just fine. I'm hesitant to replace it with a big yagi only to find out that I still can't get 7,11 and 13.

Is anyone in upper Westchester (on the Hudson River side) getting 7,11 and 13? What antenna are you using. Thanks!!!


The Winegard SS-2000 is a UHF antenna. I was also using a UHF-only antenna (Channel Master 4228HD) in Stamford, CT, and had lost the signals from channels 7, 11, and 13 until I reconnected an old attic-mounted VHF antenna. Now 7, 11, and 13 are just as strong as the other channels.

Channel 11 is a lost cause. Earlier I said I can get it fair if I move the antenna. Well I can barely get it at all now. The highest I can peak it is 50. I can get channel 7 and 13 in the high 60's sometimes with channel 7 being the strongest (got it yesterday in the 70's) but most of the time I can only peak channel 11 in the 20's. I don't understand if it is all on the same antenna I should be able to get all three channels the same signal strength.

Anyone know when the ESB will finish removing the analog antenna and move up the digital antenna? I suspect this might increase reception for some folks.

Anyone know when the ESB will finish removing the analog antenna and move up the digital antenna? I suspect this might increase reception for some folks.

I cannot say for all of the stations, but WABC for example is at the same height as analog 7 (they must be using the same antenna, that was used for the analog)
WCBS has filed to move up a ways. Which stations switched back to their analog RF channel, I would not expect a change in their case.

The Winegard SS-2000 is a UHF antenna.

Ira,

Well, it sure wasn't...and still ISN'T...advertised that way on several of the popular websites that sell it. But, based upon my experience, I would have to believe that is the case. It continues to pick up the nightlight broadcasts from Channel 2 and Channel 4 and does a good job with FM.

Anyway, time to either augment or replace it.

Thanks!

-- Ira

I cannot say for all of the stations, but WABC for example is at the same height as analog 7 (they must be using the same antenna, that was used for the analog)
WCBS has filed to move up a ways. Which stations switched back to their analog RF channel, I would not expect a change in their case.


7, 11 and 13 are at the height of the previous Hi-VHF analogue Combiner.

A lot of this does not make any sense and the powers that be are not being communicative about it.

I agree with you. How can you possibly get 7 and 13 and not get 11? I feel you pain as I am in the same boat. After making some changes and only hooking up one TV I can now get 7.1 and 13.1. However 11.1 does not come in and I still can't get 9.1.

For me reception from time to time was great where I was getting all the NY channels with a signal strength in the mid 80's to up in the mid 90's. It was so good I could split the feed and send signal to 3 TVs!

Now I can only feed one TV and my peak signal for the NY stations is mid 70s!

Something stinks here!

Before the conversion was done DIGITAL signals should have been maximized and measured by the people pushing this conversion. You don't do the switch and screw people and make them wait for stattions to move their antenna or get more power.

If this was properly managed this would have all been in place BEFORE the cutover!

Screw 7, 11, 13 and 8! They should have been kept at UHF and then we would not have to deal with having both UHF and VHF antennas etc.

This was made far more complex than it had to be and some people should be fired! I suspect these people were paid under the table by satellite and cable companies to make sure people got screwed and were forced to pay for cable etc.. to watch TV!

Just a gut feeling but someone should do a little snoping into it!

[QUOTE=speedlaw;16648302]All working here in upper westchester. I recorded most of the transitions, but Channel 7 was the only one that did anything other than an unannounced flash cut. Ch 7 showed "the switch" being pushed. Disappointing for the others....[/QUOTE=speedlaw;16648302]

Thanks, Speedlaw,

I did finally get all my channels, but not till a day or 2 after the transition. WNET-PBS is the most important to me.

Much of this stuff is too technical for me. TV has never been as important to me as computers.

1-Why do the channels still come in on the old numbers, with the exception off some -1's. Is that because the conv box translates them back to the old numbers?

2-Is anyone in lower Westchester getting WLIW and WNYE, which I could get before, but not now? As I said, I'm operating from an inaccessible VHF apt house rooftop antenna.

3-Can I add a bowtie to my set for the 2 missing stations? And how would I configure it for 2 inputs? Can I just reverse a splitter?

Screw 7, 11, 13 and 8! They should have been kept at UHF and then we would not have to deal with having both UHF and VHF antennas etc.

the use of both bands is probably the biggest blunder of this whole transition plan ("plan" is here used loosely). what a mess!

the use of both bands is probably the biggest blunder of this whole transition plan ("plan" is here used loosely). what a mess!

Indeed. And another major blunder by the FCC was to assume rooftop antennas for planning purposes, totally and consciously ignoring today's reality of mostly indoor reception in the major population centers.

7, 11 and 13 are at the height of the previous Hi-VHF analogue Combiner.

That could explain why I can't get channel 11. Channel 7 and 13 analog were pretty clear but channel 11 analog was terrible. It was very ghostly and the colors were very washed out. Also analog channel 31 looked like that. When you compare that with a digital signal but take the very ghostly image as multipath that can explain why I can't get channels 11 and 31.

the use of both bands is probably the biggest blunder of this whole transition plan ("plan" is here used loosely). what a mess!

I am finding for high VHF channels I can get 7 and 13 is it more reliable than UHF. UHF signals will keep fluctuating all the time as high VHF signals only fluctuate by a few points. I can get a signal in the high 50's to low 60's and it is stable. A UHF signal like that with channel 4 is it more unstable.

Now I have to agree that low VHF is terrible for digital. What were they thinking.

Channel 11 is a lost cause. Earlier I said I can get it fair if I move the antenna. Well I can barely get it at all now. The highest I can peak it is 50. I can get channel 7 and 13 in the high 60's sometimes with channel 7 being the strongest (got it yesterday in the 70's) but most of the time I can only peak channel 11 in the 20's. I don't understand if it is all on the same antenna I should be able to get all three channels the same signal strength.

That's the point I don't get.. I checked and I'm 32 miles from the ESB and all three of those stations come in with the same signal.. maybe you are in a position not in favor of the radiation pattern of the antennas on the ESB.

Ira,

Well, it sure wasn't...and still ISN'T...advertised that way on several of the popular websites that sell it. But, based upon my experience, I would have to believe that is the case. It continues to pick up the nightlight broadcasts from Channel 2 and Channel 4 and does a good job with FM.

Anyway, time to either augment or replace it.

Thanks!

-- Ira


Yes on solidsignal it's listed as a UHF antenna as well..

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SS-2000

• While this antenna may pick up VHF Ch 7-13 and the amplfier passes VHF/UHF, this antenna is engineered for UHF signals

Indeed. And another major blunder by the FCC was to assume rooftop antennas for planning purposes, totally and consciously ignoring today's reality of mostly indoor reception in the major population centers.

The FCC doesn't take receive antenna types into consideration when issuing a license. They look at field strength. As long as a station is able to penetrate an area with the proper level of RF, that's all they care about.

The FCC doesn't take receive antenna types into consideration when issuing a license. They look at field strength. As long as a station is able to penetrate an area with the proper level of RF, that's all they care about.

But they cannot. Not even with rooftop antennas used by the FCC to get the minimum usable field strength you refer to. That is so because the FCC used an ideal receiver that does not exist and a propagation model that was never validated.

I got my grandmother a digital converter box. She has 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13. But when I scan, it's not picking up 4 at all.

Yes on solidsignal it's listed as a UHF antenna as well..

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SS-2000

• While this antenna may pick up VHF Ch 7-13 and the amplfier passes VHF/UHF, this antenna is engineered for UHF signals

Right. I saw that. I bought the antenna last July from SummitSource. It is still listed as VHF/UHF there.

I'm quite pleased with it as a UHF and FM antenna. Perhaps it does better with Low Band VHF, but for High Band VHF, it does not appear to receive at all.

The FCC had plenty of time to figure this out. The fact that NO stations were broadcasting in digital on VHF pre-transition is a gigantic blunder.

...The fact that NO stations were broadcasting in digital on VHF pre-transition is a gigantic blunder.

Your "fact" is in error. All pre-transition DTV stations were NOT UHF. WBBM in Chicago is one of the more egregious examples.

By my count done in less than a minute, around 210 DTV stations were on VHF pre-transition across the country.

As I understand it, ERP is based on transmitter output and position on a tower.

If so, keeping current transmitter output and moving higher would help - as would more power at current height.

There are problems with how much higher ERP the FCC will permit - the Commission's allocations don't allow much wiggle room and their coverage estimates are way inflated -they don't represent real world situations taking into account vertically oriented, steel-laden, urban areas with viewers using indoor antennas.

I can't see stations migrating back to UHF.

What I do hope for is the use of SFN/DTS. That is, additional transmission points in different parts of the city all using the same frequencies. This is what 7, 11 and 13
desperately need right now!!!!

WNJU has received Commission approval to fire-up an additional facility on 4TS to supplement the station's current main transmission location - Richland Tower, West Orange, NJ.

I hope that all those who are having problems will complain to the FCC - this is the way to get things improved.

Height has nothing to do with ERP (Effective Radiated Power). ERP is the result of transmitter power input, feed-line losses, and the effective gain of the antenna. Nothing more or less.

Coverage area, on the other hand, is greatly affected by the height of the transmitting antenna.

"Perhaps it does better with Low Band VHF"

I own the 1000 - the exact antenna as the SS-2000 but without the built-in amplification.

The Square Shooter must be manipulated to possibly receive Lo-VHF.

Here are Winegard's own words "...by rotating the antenna from the horizontal plane to the vertical plane (usually 5-15 degrees)."

The antenna has been a big disappointment for me.

My indoor Silver Sensor has either matched it or bettered the Square Shooter's performance.

Height has nothing to do with ERP (Effective Radiated Power). ERP is the result of transmitter power input, feed-line losses, and the effective gain of the antenna. Nothing more or less.

Coverage area, on the other hand, is greatly affected by the height of the transmitting antenna.

"In radio telecommunications, effective radiated power or equivalent radiated power (ERP) is a standardized theoretical measurement of radio frequency (RF) energy[1] [2] using the non-SI unit dBd, and is determined by subtracting system losses and adding system gains. ERP takes into consideration transmitter power output (TPO), transmission line losses, connector losses, antenna directivity, and height above average terrain (HAAT). ERP is typically applied to antenna systems."

Obviously, I was misled!

GI Ravage--

We're not getting much help from these guys with the configurable antennas. Maybe we can help each other.

I thought I had all the channels, now 2 (CBS) and 4 (NBC) go in and out, mostly out. Does your grandmother live in an apt house, and where?

Your "fact" is in error. All pre-transition DTV stations were NOT UHF. WBBM in Chicago is one of the more egregious examples.

By my count done in less than a minute, around 210 DTV stations were on VHF pre-transition across the country.

Thanks! I did not know that. I do not believe there were any digital stations on VHF pre-transition in New York City metro. I cannot receive outside NYC metro from here.

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong about this as well.

Thanks! I did not know that. I do not believe there were any digital stations on VHF pre-transition in New York City metro. I cannot receive outside NYC metro from here.

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong about this as well.

WNJB-DT 8 (58-1) probably does not count, but it is in the New York DMA.

- Trip

WNJB-DT 8 (58-1) probably does not count, but it is in the New York DMA.

- Trip

If I understand you correctly, it was broadcasting in digital on Channel 58 (UHF) pre-transition, so yes, it does not count. I presume it has transitioned to Channel 8 (VHF) now?

No, they were 8 then and are 8 now. They were analog on 58, thus mapping to 58-1.

- Trip

I own the 1000 - the exact antenna as the SS-2000 but without the built-in amplification.

The Square Shooter must be manipulated to possibly receive Lo-VHF.

Here are Winegard's own words "...by rotating the antenna from the horizontal plane to the vertical plane (usually 5-15 degrees)."

The antenna has been a big disappointment for me.

Have you tried rotating it? Did it make a difference or it is still a bad VHF antenna?

Pre-transition, WNJB-DT was already transmitting on Channel 8.

New Jersey lobbied the FCC claiming that the entire state, with exception of WWOR
(which orginally was licensed to New York City) didn't have a VHF television station.

Well, the station's dream came true and they will be facing the horrors of digital VHF in the New York Metro area.

Additionally, Channel 8 will be supplanting WNJN-DT, Channel 51 located in Monclair (much closer to NYC) and making that station superfluous.

It's incredible that New Jersey Public Television & Radio, which didn't have enough money to run its stations at full power and cried poverty to the FCC to allow it to operate at 50%, is foolishly spending precious funds, time and manpower to relocate at
4TS.

Sounds more like ego to me than sound business practices.

I have always felt that the "Mouse House" has made some "donations" to NJ Public Broadcasting.

But that is mere speculation on my part.

Have you tried rotating it? Did it make a difference or it is still a bad VHF antenna?

Didn't do much for me.

I think I'm going to dump it!

Pre-transition, WNJB-DT was already transmitting on Channel 8.

New Jersey lobbied the FCC claiming that the entire state, with exception of WWOR
(which orginally was licensed to New York City) didn't have a VHF television station.

Well, the station's dream came true and they will be facing the horrors of digital VHF in the New York Metro area.

Additionally, Channel 8 will be supplanting WNJN-DT, Channel 51 located in Monclair (much closer to NYC) and making that station superfluous.

It's incredible that New Jersey Public Television & Radio, which didn't have enough money to run its stations at full power and cried poverty to the FCC to allow it to operate at 50%, is foolishly spending precious funds, time and manpower to relocate at
4TS.

Sounds more like ego to me than sound business practices.

I have always felt that the "Mouse House" has made some "donations" to NJ Public Broadcasting.

But that is mere speculation on my part.

New Jersey politicians aren't the brightest bulbs out there so none of this is a surprise to those of us that live here. The irony of all this is that the state STILL technically only has one VHF station since WWOR is now UHF only.

WNBC is scheduled to end Nightlight - 6/26

WCBS - 7/12


Yes that's what I heard too

Incorrect. CBS and NBC are remaining on channels 33 and 28 so in theory a rescan will not be required when analog 2 and 4 shut down.

Thanks! ;)

Your "fact" is in error. All pre-transition DTV stations were NOT UHF. WBBM in Chicago is one of the more egregious examples.

By my count done in less than a minute, around 210 DTV stations were on VHF pre-transition across the country.
In Las Vegas, there were 5 stations on analog VHF and all 5 had digital broadcasts on VHF. It helps to be in a city 100s of miles from the nearest market, so they had a bunch of open VHF channels. All 5 Vegas VHF stations stayed on their pre-transition digital channels.

There was experience with digital VHF broadcasts. The problem is that in the big markets such as NYC, LA, Philly, DC, all the VHF stations had their digital broadcasts on UHF. So during the 10 years of the transition with an increasing number of people getting digital tuners over the years, many of them got UHF antennas and were not prepared for their local stations to move to upper VHF or in some cases lower VHF. Another reason for the reception problems for the flash cut digital VHF stations is that many of them are restricted in power to protect UHF stations that got a VHF digital channel for the transition period and kept it. Skimming through the flood of posts, a lot of analog viewers were using rabbit ears for VHF and it turns out that rabbit ears don't work very well for digital reception unless you have a strong stable signal.

All 5 Vegas VHF stations stayed on their pre-transition digital channels.

Except KTNV, who moved from one VHF to another.

- Trip

Seems like the new system didn't consider how many people actually use OTA TV. How many people in Manhattan or Center City Philly do you think can install an outdoor antenna?

GI Ravage--

We're not getting much help from these guys with the configurable antennas. Maybe we can help each other.

I thought I had all the channels, now 2 (CBS) and 4 (NBC) go in and out, mostly out. Does your grandmother live in an apt house, and where?

She lives on the first floor of a seven-story apartment building in North Flushing. The digital converter box is getting its source from a cable wire in the wall, which apparently gets its signal from a master antenna on the building's roof. Before the transition, she couldn't get 2, 4, 7, or 11. Some wouldn't scan at all, and others would come in incredibly choppy. Now she gets 2, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13 with good reception, plus a whole bunch of Spanish channels. But 4 won't scan in.

In reply to some who said a rescan is not necessary when 2 and 4 shut down their analog..... this is not true for everyone.

My Sharp TV has analog channels 2 and 4 as part of my channels available. When I use the remote to move up and down my channel line up 2 and 4 appear. if I don't rescan after they shut down I will still see the channels with a blank screen. So like many I will do a rescan and my TV will then exclude them.

In reply to some who said a rescan is not necessary when 2 and 4 shut down their analog..... this is not true for everyone.

My Sharp TV has analog channels 2 and 4 as part of my channels available. When I use the remote to move up and down my channel line up 2 and 4 appear. if I don't rescan after they shut down I will still see the channels with a blank screen. So like many I will do a rescan and my TV will then exclude them.

My Samsung HDTV's allow me to go into the menu and add or remove any channel I'd like. I've already done this with the LP stations which will remain analog and once NJN appears which should be some time between August and October I will do the same with all of the Spanish language facilities too. Personally, I see no reason to keep the Spanish language stations on my TV's considering the fact that I don't speak the language and have no interest in their programming. My RCA digital converter does not receive analog transmissions.

Seems like the new system didn't consider how many people actually use OTA TV. How many people in Manhattan or Center City Philly do you think can install an outdoor antenna?

OTA DTV is not for everyone...

Good point. That is another option and I can also do that with my TV. However the point is you have to take some action whether it is to be proactive and using your TV options to ignore these Analog stations or do a rescan (My preference since rescaning may pick up more digital stations).

OTA DTV is not for everyone...

Many buildings, especially older buildings have house antennas available for their tenants. It wouldn't surprise me to see many of these older systems brought back up to working order if enough tenants complain about loss of service.

Good point. That is another option and I can also do that with my TV. However the point is you have to take some action whether it is to be proactive and using your TV options to ignore these Analog stations or do a rescan (My preference since rescaning may pick up more digital stations).

I can't speak for your TV, but I know that when I manually enter a channel which had not previosuly been picked up on a scan, the TV will enter that channel and it's sub channels into it's channel list. An example is WTBY. The scans did not pick up that channel but duiring a period of enhancement, by entering channel 27 manually on the remote control, the station now has been added to my list of channels. The same is true for channel 29/66 (WFME).

I can only talk about the many apartments I've visited in Manhattan and the Riverdale area of the Bronx - and all have had their master antenna systems abandoned, then removed.

Cable and later satellite have replaced a landlord, coop board or condo providing television reception.

With a majority of apartment dwellers not interested in O-T-A reception, building owners and managers won't consider bringing back master antennas systems, especially in these financially difficult times

It ain't gonna happen, no how!

I can only talk about the many apartments I've visited in Manhattan and the Riverdale area of the Bronx - and all have had their master antenna systems abandoned, then removed.

Cable and later satellite have replaced a landlord, coop board or condo providing television reception.

With a majority of apartment dwellers not interested in O-T-A reception, building owners and managers won't consider bringing back master antennas systems, especially in these financially difficult times

It ain't gonna happen, no how!

OTA television has two types of users in today's world.

For the middle class people who live in Manhattan and places like Riverdale which is a "more upscale" area of the Bronx, cable TV (or some other pay alternative) only makes sense due to the old problems of ghosting and other analog OTA anomalies. Due to the fact that most tenants in those facilities chose to give up OTA as an option years ago, those systems have come down and today, if your a cable subscriber you aren't going to give it up to receive an HD TV signal.


On the other hand, if you are in a lower income area, such as the Jerome avenue area of the south Bronx or one of the outer boroughs, there are many people who will depend on digital converters for their analog TV’s and those are the people for whom the loss of OTA signal will prove an issue.


The other group of people who will suffer are those few who watch little TV and have not bothered upgrading their systems yet. I work with one of those. He actually came into work to watch a sporting event because his TV at home wasn’t working due to the analog shut down. He had been asked for weeks prior to shut down if he bothered to get a converter and his answer was that he'd deal with it when he had to. That group is very small, numbers wise.



Actually, on boards like this there’s two more groups and those are the Dxers. Those people who live 60 or more miles from a transmitter and expected to receive a solid digital picture because they were able to watch a stations analog signal (probably with lots of snow). To those who also are a relatively small group of people, give it time. The stations and the FCC are aware of the problems and are working to resolve them as I type this. The final group are those people using UHF antennas to receive VHF signals or VHF antennas to receive UHF signals.

UHF TV in the NYC area has been the place for educational and Spanish language broadcasts. Most English speaking people who receive their TV picture OTA haven't bothered with UHF TV reception issues and when they go into store to purchase the proper equipment most of the sales people are of little help when it comes to the technical needs to receive all area television signals now that UHF TV is a real player in the NY market.

So I am without ABC, PIX for the last 3 days. Good that Lost is not in air this season. Thats the only show I follow. So I decided to ditch my eagle-aspen. Fortunately I have a balcony and I came to know about the flat coax cable coupler which can pass along the balcony door (can't drill through apartment wall). So I ordered CM3010 stealthantenna with CM3038 and mount accessories and also ordered the flat coax cable coupler. Total $69 shipped. Yes its expensive.. but i am hopeful.. now I will cover both VHF and UHF. The UHF gain for this antenna is sub-par compared to my eagle-aspen, that why I am getting the CM3038 in case it's needed. Hopefully, I will point the eagle-aspen towards philly and make use of it in conjunction with the stealthantenna. I haven't yet received the stealthantenna yet. Once I receive it I will post more results and pictures. Also after placing the order I noticed that in ebay, there is "hot" antenna being sold for about $45. I wish I had seen it earlier. The antenna is also a VHF/UHF antenna (and looks somewhat like Radioshack U75R) but it also comes with rotor built-in and with a IR remote control. Obviously this antenna looks like a cheap knock-off from china.. but it looks promising. I wish I would have seen this before I placed the order for the CM3010.

Here is one sample listing for the antenna I am talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AMPLIFIED-VHF-UHF-OUTDOOR-HDTV-HD-ROTOR-TV-ANTENNA-DTV_W0QQitemZ390048489457QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain _0?hash=item5ad0b39ff1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C240%3A1308 %7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Also this appears smaller compared to the stealthantenna (30" wide)

Here is one sample listing for the antenna I am talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AMPLIFIED-VHF-UHF-OUTDOOR-HDTV-HD-ROTOR-TV-ANTENNA-DTV_W0QQitemZ390048489457QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain _0?hash=item5ad0b39ff1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C240%3A1308 %7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Also this appears smaller compared to the stealthantenna (30" wide)

That antenna looks pretty interesting. Has anyone tried one like this?

Is that common, having power supplied to the rotor via the coax cable?

I need a amplified UHF antenna what is a good one?

I don't think the silver sensor is amplified but only has a forward gain of like 2.4dB I think.

The Silver Sensor is not an amplified antenna. I've had one of those before. It is very directional, though.

That antenna looks pretty interesting. Has anyone tried one like this?

Is that common, having power supplied to the rotor via the coax cable?

The stealthantenna with CM3038 is also powered by the coax. This was one reason I choose CM3010 because I can't run the power cable through the balcony door. The ebay antenna is really interesting its 30" wide and 22" long. Much smaller that the 52" CM3010. To receive ABC (channel 7) you only need a 32" wide dipole. So 30" is not bad would suffice I think. Also there are two more small-profile yagi style VHF-UHF antenna. RCA ANT751 and EZ HD antenna. These two are also small.

OTA television has two types of users in today's world.

For the middle class people who live in Manhattan ...when it comes to the technical needs to receive all area television signals now that UHF TV is a real player in the NY market.

I live 50 miles north of NYC. In my area there are more groups who use OTA.
Those that refuse to pay for cable or satellite service for multiple reasons.
Those that do not have a clear shot at a satellite due to terrain.
Those that live in an area not serviced by any cable company.

Before the transition to all digital tv, I was able to get all of the local channels in HD. Ever since the switchover, CBS seems to be lost with No Signal when I tune to that channel.

Is anyone located on the Upper Westside in Manhattan and able to receive CBS on channel 2.1?

Before the transition to all digital tv, I was able to get all of the local channels in HD. Ever since the switchover, CBS seems to be lost with No Signal when I tune to that channel.

Is anyone located on the Upper Westside in Manhattan and able to receive CBS on channel 2.1?

Moved to appropriate local topic.

Before the transition to all digital tv, I was able to get all of the local channels in HD. Ever since the switchover, CBS seems to be lost with No Signal when I tune to that channel.

Is anyone located on the Upper Westside in Manhattan and able to receive CBS on channel 2.1?

Before the transition I could not get channel 2 at all. It was very weak. Now I have no problems getting it. It is channel 11 I can't get now.

I saw nothing wrong with Zamees post and out of curiosity wonder why you would feel it belongs elsewhere when we have been posting by the boatloads where we are located and what issues we have.

You mean if I post that I would like to know if anyone else at my specific location is having OTA issues it does not belong here?

Didn't do much for me.

I think I'm going to dump it!

I just wanted to stick up for my little square friend. The SS-1000 is the only antenna that works consistantly for me. I live in the Bronx and get a lot of multi-path interference from nearby buildings. I've tried many antennas: R/S corner yagi, CM4228 and a couple of different VHF/UHF combos. They all give me the same muli-path problem (which causes frequent reception drop outs). The SS-1000 totally solved the problem. It does not work to well on VHF however, so I use a separate VHF antenna and combine both signals in a 7777amp. FWIW

I saw nothing wrong with Zamees post and out of curiosity wonder why you would feel it belongs elsewhere when we have been posting by the boatloads where we are located and what issues we have.

You mean if I post that I would like to know if anyone else at my specific location is having OTA issues it does not belong here?

I think it was posted somewhere else and moved into this forum.

Today was the first day I was able to pick up WNYN-LP (39.1) digitally.

If you love commercials this is the best station, it is infuriating but what
can you do except to censor it on Edit scan.
39-1.2.3.4.5. the first two then the next 3 giving the same ads.
Some conv.boxes pick up also 39- 2017.2018.2019.2020 the first one is
usually the same as 39.1, all others are the same as -3.4.5.
Hard to believe that 39- has 9streams/9ch.programs, some are on Comcast, others from different localities, perhaps we could make arrange-
ments to have our own programm, for fee, shown on their commercial
stations enterprise.

I saw nothing wrong with Zamees post and out of curiosity wonder why you would feel it belongs elsewhere when we have been posting by the boatloads where we are located and what issues we have.

You mean if I post that I would like to know if anyone else at my specific location is having OTA issues it does not belong here?

No, not at all. Exactly the opposite.

Zamees comment was originally a new topic in the HDTV Technical Forum. I simply merged it with this topic, where it will get the best replies from others in his/your area.

I think it was posted somewhere else and moved into this forum.

Correct.

Today I notice I'm able to get WLNY 55.1 with a pretty good signal. It's the first time since the cut on Fri I'm able to get it, so I don't know if they did something different at the transmitter today.
Still intermittent problems with WPIX

Today I finally checked my OTA channels and wow did they ever screw everything up for me. I am very happy they delayed the switch to June cause if they did it in Feb I couldn't have recorded anything.

I use to be able to get 2,4,5,7,9,11,21 without needing to really move my indoor antenna around much, now I get 5 and 9 only. I barely can get 2, 4 and 21. Both 7 and 11 have completely disappeared. As I understand it 7 went from UHF to VHF so it's pretty much gone from my system like how I never could get 13 cause it's in the VHF range. 2 changed from 68 IIRC to 33 so for me it went from one of my best channels to basically not really being there.

I am all for the digital switch but for YEARS the HDTV channels were set and working properly then at the last minute they change them around. Who was the idiot that thought that up? He should be fired at the very least.

OTA television has two types of users in today's world.

your right, there are two kinds of users:

Those that had NO problem receiving OTA signals before the cut over
and
Those that can NO longer receive OTA from WABC, WPIX and WNET after the cut over

I am all for the digital switch but for YEARS the HDTV channels were set and working properly then at the last minute they change them around. Who was the idiot that thought that up? He should be fired at the very least.

It wasn't a last minute thing regarding final channel assignments. It goes back at least 2 years. See this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823166

Today I finally checked my OTA channels and wow did they ever screw everything up for me. I am very happy they delayed the switch to June cause if they did it in Feb I couldn't have recorded anything.

I use to be able to get 2,4,5,7,9,11,21 without needing to really move my indoor antenna around much, now I get 5 and 9 only. I barely can get 2, 4 and 21. Both 7 and 11 have completely disappeared. As I understand it 7 went from UHF to VHF so it's pretty much gone from my system like how I never could get 13 cause it's in the VHF range. 2 changed from 68 IIRC to 33 so for me it went from one of my best channels to basically not really being there.

I am all for the digital switch but for YEARS the HDTV channels were set and working properly then at the last minute they change them around. Who was the idiot that thought that up? He should be fired at the very least.

I agree. Major screw up. Probably wouldn't be tolerated at most places of employment!

I thought the Stations where going full Power? Does not seem like it at all

- RadioShack UFO (Amp)
- Terk HDTVa (Amp)
- Terk TV55 (Amp)

for the last 3 days i've been playing with the 3 antennas listed above and now i'm ready to report my experiences. i tried them at several different spots and in several different configurations.

i can say with certainty that the TV55 is useless in my place (8mi north of ESB). it performed poorly on the UHF band and it could never receive the 3 VHF channels. also, i'd like to point out that the TV55's shape and length make it somewhat inflexible for use indoors. i'm not saying this is a bad antenna.... i'm just saying it didnt suit my particular setup. the fact i live in a sort of valley makes reception rather difficult.

regarding the UFO and the HDTVa, both performed well on the UHF band, getting all major UHF channels! however, that was expected since my home-made loop had also worked great! either UHF is a more forgiving band, or these channels are being broadcast with adequate power....

the real test for HDTVa and UFO was the reception of the high VHF channels. well, neither could receive ABC or CW! on the other hand, i did (finally) get Thirteen! :) the problem is, most of the time, Thirteen's signal ocillates between 0 and 50%. however, at 2 very particular spots, both antennas can receive PBS at a watchable level (40%). unfortunately, that requires very precise positioning and stretching of the dipoles (also, an 150 degrees angle works best). very annoying....it's like dealing with a goddamn celebrity! and this whole "circus" becomes pointless when the weather changes because the signal drops to zero, anyway. :mad:



well, anyone living within 10mi of ESB in Jersey or Brooklyn should get decent reception of channel 13.1 using the HDTVa or UFO. the UHF channels would probably look great even 15mi away! the HDTVa is my favourite of the 3! btw, i learned something interesting from this experience: amplifiers make a huge difference! i could not get 13.1 with the amps off!

so now i want to buy a separate (and stronger) amplifier to use in place of the one bundled with the Terk HDTVa. could you guys recommend a good amp for use indoors? i think i should get one on which the level can be adjusted so to avoid overloading the converter box. should i get 10, 20 or 30db? any suggestions?

i think i'll try one more antenna as well.... one with more emphasis on the VHF band -- since it's clear to me that UHF is a no-brainer in my location. does anyone here have experience with the Winegard HD-1080 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-1080)? do you guys agree that it should perform better (than the HDTVa/UFO) on high VHF?

Today I finally checked my OTA channels and wow did they ever screw everything up for me. I am very happy they delayed the switch to June cause if they did it in Feb I couldn't have recorded anything.

I use to be able to get 2,4,5,7,9,11,21 without needing to really move my indoor antenna around much, now I get 5 and 9 only. I barely can get 2, 4 and 21. Both 7 and 11 have completely disappeared. As I understand it 7 went from UHF to VHF so it's pretty much gone from my system like how I never could get 13 cause it's in the VHF range. 2 changed from 68 IIRC to 33 so for me it went from one of my best channels to basically not really being there.

I am all for the digital switch but for YEARS the HDTV channels were set and working properly then at the last minute they change them around. Who was the idiot that thought that up? He should be fired at the very least.

It would help if people like you said where you lived. Are you in Manhattan? One of the outer boroughs? New Jesey? CT? Westchester? Long Island?

Live in Astoria, Queens. Can get all major channels and sub-channels crystal clear except WLIW 21 - no signal at all. Wondering what other people's reception of WLIW is like that live within the five boroughs. I know at least one person in Brooklyn is getting WLIW great, but has another problem that I don't have.

My antenna is a set of rabbit ears and my reception is flawless except for WLIW 21. Can't figure out why in Astoria, Queens, I would get no signal at all. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero!

Anyone else having problems picking up ION today? I am having issues picking it up, presumably b\c of the rain. Anyone know where they broadcast from? Is it the ESB? Also, do they have any plans to increase their power or otherwise do anything to make their transmission more reliable.

(I am able to pick up every single station reliably this morning except ION so I doubt it has anything to do with my antenna or setup)

Thanks in advance!

One more question - Does anyone know if ION is on the Combiner?

I been in Florida and missed the analog turn off in NY so how did it go? I remember 7-13 were supposed to switch back fron UHF to VHF and channel 21 to 20 and 31 to 30 so did any of that happen?

I'm in Rockland County, NY about 35 north of NYC. I have a Radio Shack Yagi (Model: U-75R/Catalog #:15-2160) mounted in a garage attic. I'm getting all the stations including Ch 7 (digital VHF- a strong 60%) except I can't pull in CH 11 or 13. Is anyone in my area able to pick up Ch 11 or 13?

I live in Carmel, Putnam County, about 45-50 miles north of the ESB. I have pretty much line of sight so I believe what my TV reports as signal level is reasonably good for comparing power levels from day to day.

My TV needs a signal level greater than 30 for reliable reception. Comparing this past weeks signals with those for the 2008-2009 TV season:

-channels that haven't changed frequency:
4.x is broadcasting at lower power; still reliable; signal average 82 to 65.
5.x is broadcasting at lower power; still reliable, signal average 82 to 65.
9.x is broadcasting at lower power: now unreliable, signal average 65 to 33.
24.x is broadcasting at lower power; still reliable, signal average 70 to 45.
41.x is broadcasting at lower power; almost completely unreliable, signal average 70 to 25.
47.x is broadcasting at lower power; still reliable, signal average 60 to 45.

-channels that have changed frequency:
7.x still reliable; signal average 73 to 55.
11.x not 100% reliable; signal average 55 to 35.
13.x now reliable; signal average 0 to 48.
(I can't compare power levels with the VHF channels since I use a different antenna for VHF.)
2.x still reliable; signal average 70 to 65.
31.x slightly better but still too many breakups; signal average 32 to 33.
68.x a strange one. For a few days very reliable with signal average of 65. The last couple of days 8.

There have been numerous times late a night when some channels have appeared to stop broadcasting, or have at least dropped power levels to the point where they barely register.

I think this all suggests that the NYC DTV transition is still a work in progress and that the wisest approach from us is to be patient. I do expect the UHF power levels will come back to the pre-transition levels and I expect the VHF channels will increase power as well.

I'm in Rockland County, NY about 35 north of NYC. I have a Radio Shack Yagi (Model: U-75R/Catalog #:15-2160) mounted in a garage attic. I'm getting all the stations including Ch 7 (digital VHF- a strong 60%) except I can't pull in CH 11 or 13. Is anyone in my area able to pick up Ch 11 or 13?

I get 7-11-13 pretty much the same here in Croton NY, across the river. Of course, I have pretty much a line of sight to NYC-no ridges or hills. 95%, 92% and 92%. I have an antenna above the roof about ten feet.

They are very close in frequency, so if you get one, you should get the others....

2.1 is very weak-won't lock. Everything else is between 70% and 90 % and will lock.

2.1 must be running low power...even when it does lock I only see 30-50 %. Today's wet weather is not helping things.

I been in Florida and missed the analog turn off in NY so how did it go? I remember 7-13 were supposed to switch back fron UHF to VHF and channel 21 to 20 and 31 to 30 so did any of that happen?

21 was on 22 pre-transition. It is now back on 21 (not 20). 7 and 13 are now back broadcasting on VHF 7 and 13.

I'm in Rockland County, NY about 35 north of NYC. I have a Radio Shack Yagi (Model: U-75R/Catalog #:15-2160) mounted in a garage attic. I'm getting all the stations including Ch 7 (digital VHF- a strong 60%) except I can't pull in CH 11 or 13. Is anyone in my area able to pick up Ch 11 or 13?

Yes, I have a Radio Shack VU-90 antenna with pre-amp mounted in my attic and I receive Al the NY digital stations. My problem at the moment is with New Jersey Public television.

Turning the antenna a few degrees I am now able to detect WNJN's signal. Still no lock on video here however.

Turning the antenna a few degrees I am now able to detect WNJN's signal. Still no lock on video here however.

Same thing here. 50.1 is off axis for me, so it is my lowest signal. I had to replace all of my (old, questionable) splitters with new ones to get the sub-50% signal up to the current 67% which is lockable. My own fault, really, these splitters were collected one and another over time. They were replaced with properly terminated 4 way splitters.

I have two splitters before two sets, and three before two others. 50.1 does not make it out of three splitters, but is viewable if only split twice.

A combination of the signal loss from splitting and the fact that losses at 700 mhz are higher than the lower channels kills the "third split". All other channels come in at decent levels, even after the third splitter-the third splitter also has another 50-70 feet of line, for the total worst case Scenario.

I have a RS fringe antenna VU -90 on the roof, overkill for my location, so I have S/N to spare. If not split, most stations are 100%.

Except on Ch 2.1 today. Still no lock. All other channels are 70-90 and clear.

Turning the antenna a few degrees I am now able to detect WNJN's signal. Still no lock on video here however.
WNJB DT(New Brunswick ) will be moving to the antenna on top of Times square on VHF ch 8 in Sept-Oct ... That may clear things up for you.

Channel 8!

It would help if people like you said where you lived. Are you in Manhattan? One of the outer boroughs? New Jesey? CT? Westchester? Long Island?

I live on Long Island in New Hyde Park, but that really is kind of irrelevant because if they had just left the channels as they were pre DTV switch and freed up the old VHF spectrum, people like myself who have had a HDTV OTA receiver since about 1999 wouldn't have had any issues since we already knew the quirks of the reception of OTA HDTV. Now after 10 years I am back to square one, looking for an antenna, and that shouldn't have happened.

Over the last week or two, my reception of CBS & Fox has not been great. I used to get both of these stations at a solid 100 signal strength (Toshiba DST-3000). Now they are both fluctuating between high 70's low 80's.

I'm in western Suffolk County. Has anyone else been having reception problems lately?

Yeah, my reception has been not so great as well. Low 80s.

NJN New Brunswick(WNJB 58.x, RF 8), NJN Montclair(WNJN 50.x) and NJN Trenton(WNJT 52.x) share the same programming. If you are interested on getting NJN programming you can point towards Montclair and get the signals reliably. In fact I am 7-8 miles away from the WNJB tower and I have kept my antenna pointed towards NYC. I don't get WNJB digital (its I think 60 degree north to the antenna's current direction). However, I still get the off-axis channels like WNJN and WMBC because of the wider beam width of the antenna. Of course with narrow beam-width antennas like U75R or Terk HDTVa/HDTVi , this will not be possible. So for people living in 5 boroughs of NY, your best bet (till WNJB moves to NY) of receiving NJN should be the the WNJN Montclair by either moving the antenna (physically or by rotor) or coupling multiple antennas. If your ATSC tuner has capability to input physical channel number, then it should be really easy to tune WNJN Montclair.

Anyone else having problems picking up ION today? I am having issues picking it up, presumably b\c of the rain. Anyone know where they broadcast from? Is it the ESB? Also, do they have any plans to increase their power or otherwise do anything to make their transmission more reliable.

(I am able to pick up every single station reliably this morning except ION so I doubt it has anything to do with my antenna or setup)

Thanks in advance!

One more question - Does anyone know if ION is on the Combiner?
I called ION and they stated that they already are broadcasting at full power. Oh well. Maybe they will do something in the future to make their broadcast more reliable.

has anything changed regarding ABC's transmission power? i just tried it now now and, to my surprise, i'm getting it about 30% signal strength. given this relatively bad weather, this is pretty good.

I called ION and they stated that they already are broadcasting at full power. Oh well. Maybe they will do something in the future to make their broadcast more reliable.

I had ION last night but its gone now. Must be the weather.

I'm in Rockland County, NY about 35 north of NYC. I have a Radio Shack Yagi (Model: U-75R/Catalog #:15-2160) mounted in a garage attic. I'm getting all the stations including Ch 7 (digital VHF- a strong 60%) except I can't pull in CH 11 or 13. Is anyone in my area able to pick up Ch 11 or 13?

Here's a trick I just did. I crumpled two pieces of aluminum foil into softball size balls, went up the attic and attached them on the ends of the last reflector ( the one where the cable attaches to). Ch 7 went from 58% to 76% and Ch11 went fron 0 to 66%. The other UHF channels stayed the same.

Here's a trick I just did. I crumpled two pieces of aluminum foil into softball size balls, went up the attic and attached them on the ends of the last reflector ( the one where the cable attaches to). Ch 7 went from 58% to 76% and Ch11 went fron 0 to 66%. The other UHF channels stayed the same.

I use this method. Seems to work best. Guess the tinfoil antenna is back. Man somethings should be left in history

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9268/tinfoil.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/tinfoil.jpg/)
Only problem happens when you use the microwave.

I live on Long Island in New Hyde Park, but that really is kind of irrelevant because if they had just left the channels as they were pre DTV switch and freed up the old VHF spectrum, people like myself who have had a HDTV OTA receiver since about 1999 wouldn't have had any issues since we already knew the quirks of the reception of OTA HDTV. Now after 10 years I am back to square one, looking for an antenna, and that shouldn't have happened.

The pre-transition arrangement of channels was always temporary.

Here's a trick I just did. I crumpled two pieces of aluminum foil into softball size balls, went up the attic and attached them on the ends of the last reflector ( the one where the cable attaches to). Ch 7 went from 58% to 76% and Ch11 went fron 0 to 66%. The other UHF channels stayed the same.

It works best if you crumple the foil around your fist and make a hollow ball. If the ball is too crumpled and not hollow it's not as effective.

It works best if you crumple the foil around your fist and make a hollow ball. If the ball is too crumpled and not hollow it's not as effective.

He he ... and if you wear a pickle bucket on your head, use the handle for a chinstrap ... and line the bucket with tin foil ...that'll keep the digital signals from making you buy things you see on TV.

Tin foil? Really? Can it really help?

I remember making little aluminum foil flags to put on the ends of a dipole antenna back in the 80s, but I just don't know about it now.

I was around for not-so-early TV in the '50's. It was awful; we played with the rabbit ears and adjustment knobs constantly. On the other hand, with my last tubed TV in the early '70's, I was able to do my own repairs myself by replacing tubes. :).

Too bad some of our fellow board posters weren't around in the early days of radio & television otherwise maybe they'd remember what TV reception was really like before solid state electronics and all that analog became after 50 years of developement.

I had ION last night but its gone now. Must be the weather.

have not got ION since Tuesday of this week.. with the rain a lot of channels wont come in now like 4-1 (5-1 works fine) and 55-1 seems to be hit or miss but weather will cause me not to get the channel.

RE: WLIW-21:

I'm in lower Westchester, with an apt house rooftop antenna. I have all the usual channels from 2-13. I was getting WLIW-21, although not perfectly clearly, before the transition. Now it's completely gone. Do you have any info whether they're broadcasting on another channel, or are improving their signal later? Are they on UHF now?

Live in Astoria, Queens. Can get all major channels and sub-channels crystal clear except WLIW 21 - no signal at all. Wondering what other people's reception of WLIW is like that live within the five boroughs. I know at least one person in Brooklyn is getting WLIW great, but has another problem that I don't have.

My antenna is a set of rabbit ears and my reception is flawless except for WLIW 21. Can't figure out why in Astoria, Queens, I would get no signal at all. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero!

your right, there are two kinds of users:

Those that had NO problem receiving OTA signals before the cut over
and
Those that can NO longer receive OTA from WABC, WPIX and WNET after the cut over


Because they want to use UHF antennas to try to get a VHF-Hi station from over 20 miles away.

:rolleyes:

RE: WLIW-21:

I'm in lower Westchester, with an apt house rooftop antenna. I have all the usual channels from 2-13. I was getting WLIW-21, although not perfectly clearly, before the transition. Now it's completely gone. Do you have any info whether they're broadcasting on another channel, or are improving their signal later? Are they on UHF now?

Pre-transition, they were broadcasting on UHF 22 using PSIP 21, but now they are back on 21. I don't know anything else, but I've read that their transmitter isn't very tall.

I'm in Rockland County, NY about 35 north of NYC. I have a Radio Shack Yagi (Model: U-75R/Catalog #:15-2160) mounted in a garage attic. I'm getting all the stations including Ch 7 (digital VHF- a strong 60%) except I can't pull in CH 11 or 13. Is anyone in my area able to pick up Ch 11 or 13?

You are using a uhf only antenna

You may get 11 & 13 if you add a VHF only antenna. But you would do even better if you get a vhf hi only & it will be much smaller than a vhf.

Pre-transition, they were broadcasting on UHF 22 using PSIP 21, but now they are back on 21. I don't know anything else, but I've read that their transmitter isn't very tall.

Why don't they put a back up in NYC?

I know at least one person in Brooklyn is getting WLIW great, but has another problem that I don't have.

My antenna is a set of rabbit ears and my reception is flawless except for WLIW 21. Can't figure out why in Astoria, Queens, I would get no signal at all. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero!

Before the transition I hardly ever got a blip of WLIW. Afterwards, because I moved the rabbit ears antenna to another room and found a sweet spot, I now can get reception from 30 - 40.

I looked at the tvfool.com reception maps and I should be in a pretty weak spot for WLIW. At ground level they show me as 2Edge to the transmitter but I am high enough up in my building I think to get me LOS (at least ignoring tall buildings). I noticed that Astoria is 2Edge - I think that there are natural ridges in the way. You probably need to be quite high up to get past that.

interesting article from another thread:



TVNewsDay reported "VHF Throws Wrench In DTV Transition":
http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/20...aily.5/?page=1 (http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/18/daily.5/?page=1)
I posted fol. info in the L.A. thread re VHF problems re VSWR & coverage prediction:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16681206 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16681206)

The biggest problem I have with high VHF is I can get one station strong like channel 7 and then it makes channels 11 and 13 weak. When I make channel 13 stronger it makes channel 7 weak. Channel 11 is very weak. What I don't understand is that they are all broadcasting from the ESB. I should be able to get them all in the same position.

In case you still have problems with ch.11,(can't read all the threads), weak signal on ch.11 on signal meter reading produces most violent fluctua
tion in range of 70 points down to 5 to 0, ch.13 used to give 40 points fluc
tuation, now is solid.
Ch.11 with normal strength signal gives high PQ, consistent read, super.

34 is owned by CaribeVision, a Spanish-language TV network. They're on full-powered stations in Puerto Rico, but on a couple of LP stations in the US.

- Trip
Though I don't habla espanol, I wish they were like 47-1 with ingles subtiles, the PQ and Audio are highQ.

WCBS-DT, O-T-A is out for an hour - scheduled to be back at 4.

Obviously, TWC is connected by fiber and is carrying a signal.

DirecTV is out - has to be O-T-A method of receiving the station.

How dumb - Direct should also have fiber to the source.

2 is back, earlier than expected.

Channel 11 is a lost cause. Earlier I said I can get it fair if I move the antenna. Well I can barely get it at all now. The highest I can peak it is 50. I can get channel 7 and 13 in the high 60's sometimes with channel 7 being the strongest (got it yesterday in the 70's) but most of the time I can only peak channel 11 in the 20's. I don't understand if it is all on the same antenna I should be able to get all three channels the same signal strength.
2 questions - when you punch in signal meter read, does the Audio/sound
volume goes drastically down to barely audible? Other box that I have iNet-Tivax type the Audio remains unchanged, yours probably too.
2ndQ - what is the max.power, most boxes are Energy star 8w (as iNet) and or less, my second box Coship is 12w (also Goodmind), Cadence 18w.
It seems to me that boxes with less power have harder time to maintain
signal strength.
When Signal meter is on the Audio is barely audible, the electric power
from Audio is diverted to Video signal giving peeping sound but also helps to streamline or to enhance signal strength to push through circuitry to TV, thus
meter fluctuating 10-20points like 30 to 20-up over 30-down, the diverted power helps to stabilize signal level that even at 20 low quickly up to 30 there is no pixelation, once meter signal is gone the Audio sound returns to
normal strength, each time signal meter is on the Audio is barely audible.
The fact that this box has 12w consumption helps to Video-(Audio) output.

I visited my Dad in Queens Village yesterday and installed a digital converter and indoor antenna in his apartment. We were delighted to receive all NYC stations (except 31), and WLIW. See results below.

Location: Eastern Queens Village (Zip 11429), about 14 mi east of ESB, apartment building, fourth floor, eastern side of building (side away from Manhattan).

Equipment:
Antenna: RCA ANT111 (simple VHF rabbit ears/UHF loop, not amplified, $9 at Walmart). Antenna is located about 30" to left of tv, about 14 feet from outside wall of building)
Digital Converter: Magnavox TB100MW9

Results: With the indoor antenna located about 30" to the left of the TV, and about 4' off the floor, in a north-south orientation, the following stations were sucessfully scanned:
Ch 2.1
Ch 4.1, 4.2 and 4.4
Ch 5.1, 5.2
Ch 7.1, 7.2 and 7.3
Ch 9.1, 9.2
Ch 11.1, 11.2
Ch 13.1, 13.2, 13.3
Ch 21.1, 21.2, 21.3
Ch 25.1, 25.2
Ch 41.1
Ch 47.1

Signal strengths were in the weak to moderate range (18 to 32 on Magnavox signal meter)

As it turned out, we were lucky to locate the indoor antenna at a sweet spot in the apartment on the first scan. Moving the antenna around to find Ch31 was unsuccessful, and also impaired reception on some of the other channels.

Ch 7 had the best VHF signal strength, followed by Ch 13. Ch 11 was marginal and pixilated a lot, but a small 30 degree counter clockwise rotation eliminated the pixilation. Ch 13 signal increased with a 30 degree clockwise rotation. It should be noted that the rabbit ears should be extended only about 14" for vhf-hi channels, with a 'V' configuration. Extending the rabbit ear dipoles further resulted in a decrease in signal strength. I was pleasently surprised that the three VHF channels came in so good after reading so many posts from others in NYC about difficulties receiving these channels with indoor antennas. Having no other nearby high rise buildings to the west of my father's building may explain our good outcome.

I expected WLIW to be the strongest signal, since my Dad's apartment faces eastern Long Island, but it turned out to be the weakest. Moving the antenna even a few inches in an eastern or western direction caused reception to drop out.

Frank
WA2ISK

picks up UHF great and VHF HI band (7, 9, 11, 13) well too !


http://www.buy.com/prod/pro-brand-directv-2-bay-uhf-antenna-pro-brand-directv-2-bay-uhf-antenna/q/loc/111/202827678.html

picks up UHF great and VHF HI band (7, 9, 11, 13) well too !


http://www.buy.com/prod/pro-brand-directv-2-bay-uhf-antenna-pro-brand-directv-2-bay-uhf-antenna/q/loc/111/202827678.html

Probably good for people living within 20 miles. But this doesn't work for me. I have the exact same antenna and I am 33 miles away. I used to get all NY channels (except WNET of course) before transition using this antenna. Anyway, I have rcvd the CM3030 and CM3038 today. I don't know, how big it is. I will post my findings.

A number of off topic comments have been edited or deleted.

DirecTV is out - has to be O-T-A method of receiving the station.

How dumb - Direct should also have fiber to the source.

Could be:

Local television channels are transmitted over optical fiber links, Ku-band satellite uplink, microwave, and conventional terrestrial transmission to uplink centers located throughout the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directv#Local_channels

2's stronger now. Thursday it was weaker and breaking up now and then.

My advice is to avoid at all cost antennas with amplifiers.


Now you tell me.

Well, I've already installed my amplified antenna on the roof, so is there anything I can do to fix the problem from inside? Some kind of attenuator or impedance matching transformer?

I have always felt that the "Mouse House" has made some "donations" to NJ Public Broadcasting.

I was told by one of my TV professors that the commercial networks have always supported public television and they won't let it die, because it keeps the FCC from pressuring the networks to broadcast the same kind of programming.

Interestingly, my VHF analog reception has always been excellent. Perhaps some stations wanted to keep their VHF channels since they figured their existing viewers were already successfully receiving those channels. As for me, the stations that went VHF post-transition are coming in great, in some cases better than before. Interestingly, channel 3, which I was getting best of all pre-transition, has now completely disappeared. Not that I miss it, but I'm curious to know what happened. Did they stop broadcasting?

just tried 13.1 but it seems to be off-the-air. i used to get it with a low signal (20-40%) but i havent been able to tune it since about midnight.

maybe they are working on the transmitter....

rperlberg: Now you tell me.
Well, I've already installed my amplified antenna on the roof, so is there anything I can do to fix the problem from inside? Some kind of attenuator or impedance matching transformer?

Sorry. I'm rather new to this forum.
If you cannot bypass the amp or eliminate it, try a 6dB pad at its input and/or output. This is a matter of experimentation. The amp usually raises the noise floor effectively lowering the SNR because it introduces impedance mismatches that cause echoes, line loss, 2nd and 3rd odrer distortion and a rise in the factory NF. The latter two are uncorrectible by the equalizer. How much loss of SNR margin will depend on the quality of the amp and the VSWR of the antenna/tuner. That's why I wrote to avoid the amp if possible. In some cases the amp may be helpful. If you have solid reception on all channels all the time, leave it as-is.

While on vacation last week I had correspondence via e-mail with a senior gentleman in a NYC deep fringe coverage area of Wurtsboro, NY in Sullivan County. His home is over 1,100 feet elevation and was able to receive good analog VHF signals from NYC stations using a large Channel Master VHF roof antenna. He told me he he called the CBS 800 number. They they told him to contact a TV shop in NJ, which sold him a Winegard VHF/UHF antenna with specs of 60 miles UHF, 70 miles VHF (this guy is 65 air miles from NYC). Needless to say this antenna combined with a low rated RCA converter box result in no digital signa except for RNN infomercials and channel 54 preaching salvation for a buck, so rather than pay the cable or satellite company he is giving up on television, period. He considered cable until he drove down to Middletown to the cable storefront and saw all the workers were behind bullet proof glass. He suspected there was a good reason to be behind glass and it probably was due to poor product:eek: performance for excessive prices.

The pre-transition arrangement of channels was always temporary.

I might buy that reasoning if the arrangement was constantly being switched around for the past 10 years or at least 6months prior to the switch they changed the arrangement to the current one, but to go on 10 years where everyone was saying you only need a UHF antenna to pickup OTA HDTV/digital signals then do the digital switch and a bunch go back to VHF is just way beyond idiotic.

This is like me releasing my software fully tested working flawlessly in Windows to all my users then pushing an update on it that said sorry these couple of features only works on Mac so go buy a dual booting Mac if you want them back.

I might buy that reasoning if the arrangement was constantly being switched around for the past 10 years or at least 6months prior to the switch they changed the arrangement to the current one, but to go on 10 years where everyone was saying you only need a UHF antenna to pickup OTA HDTV/digital signals then do the digital switch and a bunch go back to VHF is just way beyond idiotic.

This is like me releasing my software fully tested working flawlessly in Windows to all my users then pushing an update on it that said sorry these couple of features only works on Mac so go buy a dual booting Mac if you want them back.

Actually I'm sorry, I think they did it just to annoy you and make you spend more money on a new antenna, that really was the plan, all along.

As far as your analogy goes, it's really left me scratching my head. :confused: I won't pick it apart word for word here, because it's totally out of the scope of what this forum is about. However, you might try to refine it a bit so it makes sense. :rolleyes:

Why don't they put a back up in NYC?

Good question. I really don't know. You'll have to ask that question of WNET/WLIW.

Weird. WNET 13.1 is "off air", broadcasting today instead on PSIP 70.1. 13.2 Kids Thirteen and 13.3 V-Me are normal.

Weird. WNET 13.1 is "off air", broadcasting today instead on PSIP 70.1. 13.2 Kids Thirteen and 13.3 V-Me are normal.

it still shows as 13.1, 13.2 and 13.3 for me. the signal was at 40% earlier this morning but it's only 10% now. it's not off air.

it still shows as 13.1, 13.2 and 13.3 for me. the signal was at 40% earlier this morning but it's only 10% now. it's not off air.

Got my TV on now, getting main PBS on 70.1. On 13.1, no signal. Weird. They also do appear to be having signal problems.

Got my TV on now, getting main PBS on 70.1. On 13.1, no signal. Weird. They also do appear to be having signal problems.

Even odder cause I'm watching Frontline on 13.1 perfect. Maybe since the report is about Wall Street it is being blocked in the city :)

While on vacation last week I had correspondence via e-mail with a senior gentleman in a NYC deep fringe coverage area of Wurtsboro, NY in Sullivan County. His home is over 1,100 feet elevation and was able to receive good analog VHF signals from NYC stations using a large Channel Master VHF roof antenna. He told me he he called the CBS 800 number. They they told him to contact a TV shop in NJ, which sold him a Winegard VHF/UHF antenna with specs of 60 miles UHF, 70 miles VHF (this guy is 65 air miles from NYC). Needless to say this antenna combined with a low rated RCA converter box result in no digital signa except for RNN infomercials and channel 54 preaching salvation for a buck, so rather than pay the cable or satellite company he is giving up on television, period. He considered cable until he drove down to Middletown to the cable storefront and saw all the workers were behind bullet proof glass. He suspected there was a good reason to be behind glass and it probably was due to poor product:eek: performance for excessive prices.
Hi, I'm in Rockland County and about 30 miles out of the ESB.

Please be aware that all Antenna's have a rating that I have found to be at best Marketing hype.

If it says good for 30 miles plus, get one that is at least 50 miles plus. If it says 65 miles, get 80 -100 miles coverage as these ratings seem to best case...

Who lives in a best case area anyway!!

TVJazzman

Even odder cause I'm watching Frontline on 13.1 perfect. Maybe since the report is about Wall Street it is being blocked in the city :)

Well then the other explanation is that there is something about their PSIP data that is making my box interpret it as 70.1 instead of 13.1. I even deleted 70.1 from my channel lineup, then went into the "add channel" screen and did a scan on channel 13 only, and it found 13.2, 13.3, and 70.1.

Zip 10940 - 50 miles NW of NYC. Current antenna setup is good for UHF and marginal for VHF high channels from ESB. Thinking I should replace my 4 element Winegard FM yagi with a VHF high band antenna. Have no trouble receiving the UHF stations with the XG91 and CM 7777. Was considering the Winegard YA 1716 until I googled the model number. Based on photos in ads there seem to be two different antenna designs called YA 1716..

This one...
http://www.weisd.com/store2/WINYA-1713.php

and this one..
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713&main_cat=03&source=googleps

Anyone know what is going on here? Will either of these work for NYC FM reception?

I'm reluctant to scrap the XG91 and go with a combo antenna since it works well and doesn't seem to have much wind load.

Suggestions appreciated

Yes! Finally picking up PBS 13.1

Yes! Finally picking up PBS 13.1

...and it still comes in for me on 70.1. I don't care what channel it's on, so long as I get the channel. It is a mystery though.

...and it still comes in for me on 70.1. I don't care what channel it's on, so long as I get the channel. It is a mystery though.

The 70.1 also happens on the Dish dtvpal. Can you reset your TV or box to defaults. then rescan

Well then the other explanation is that there is something about their PSIP data that is making my box interpret it as 70.1 instead of 13.1.

this happens on my CM7000 converter too. but i've noticed that the strange virtual channel is always the real RF channel followed by ".1", ".2", ".3", etc. for example, sometimes when i rescan, i get:

- MY9 as 38.1 (actual RF = 38)
- FOX as 44.1 (actual RF = 44)

this is obviously not your case as WNET's RF isnt 70. i hope that means they are working on improving their transmission. the only way to completely remove the channel from my converter's memory is through a "new scan" or resetting the box completely.

Zip 10940 - 50 miles NW of NYC. Current antenna setup is good for UHF and marginal for VHF high channels from ESB. Thinking I should replace my 4 element Winegard FM yagi with a VHF high band antenna. Have no trouble receiving the UHF stations with the XG91 and CM 7777. Was considering the Winegard YA 1716 until I googled the model number. Based on photos in ads there seem to be two different antenna designs called YA 1716..

This one...
http://www.weisd.com/store2/WINYA-1713.php

and this one..
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713&main_cat=03&source=googleps

Anyone know what is going on here? Will either of these work for NYC FM reception?

I'm reluctant to scrap the XG91 and go with a combo antenna since it works well and doesn't seem to have much wind load.

Suggestions appreciated

The YA1713 (note correct model number) is intended for channels 7 - 13, not FM radio.

You would do best to ADD the YA1713 to the 7777/91XG and keep the FM antenna separate (and filtered out) of the TV down-lead.

The 70.1 also happens on the Dish dtvpal. Can you reset your TV or box to defaults. then rescan

Yes that did it. Now WNET is back on 13.1. This really makes me want to get a new television sooner. I'm really starting to hate these little converter boxes.

P.S. WNET's signal is total crap now.

I thought EVERYONE that watched TV in Manhattan had cable. OTA=Wow! Cable just for the reason of getting a hundred+ channels. Jeez, where I live in Queens, there are single resident homes with like three or four (DishTV) dishes stuck in various places. Even apartments have them hanging next to windows, yeah, even in Flushing and Jamaica. I never knew there was an enforceable law that said you can't have a dish antenna.

My obviously crazy assumption was that people in Manhattan, since they're practically bathed in the glow of the ESB that if they really wanted to, they could just hang some tiny VHF/UHF antenna out their windows to get a solid signal. I can't believe in the year 2009 that people are fighting for just a few measly TV channels. I guess America really is behind the eight ball. I never would have guessed it. In Wyoming maybe, but in the NYC greater metro area, never. I didn't realize how fortunate I am.

I can't believe in the year 2009 that people are fighting for just a few measly TV channels. I guess America really is behind the eight ball. I never would have guessed it.

in my case, the issue is 4-fold:

1) economy went down the toilet.

2) cable/sat is too much money to be paying every month -- even on a good economy.

3) the number of reality shows is already *twice* the total amount of channels. the amount of crappy channels is 20 times the amount of good ones. for the money they charge, they should be providing more quality and less channels.

4) signal is over-compressed. when you call tech support to complain, they put you through a pointless "via crucis" that solves nothing. just wastes your time and makes you feel cheated.

I thought EVERYONE that watched TV in Manhattan had cable. OTA=Wow! Cable just for the reason of getting a hundred+ channels. Jeez, where I live in Queens, there are single resident homes with like three or four (DishTV) dishes stuck in various places. Even apartments have them hanging next to windows, yeah, even in Flushing and Jamaica. I never knew there was an enforceable law that said you can't have a dish antenna.

My obviously crazy assumption was that people in Manhattan, since they're practically bathed in the glow of the ESB that if they really wanted to, they could just hang some tiny VHF/UHF antenna out their windows to get a solid signal. I can't believe in the year 2009 that people are fighting for just a few measly TV channels. I guess America really is behind the eight ball. I never would have guessed it. In Wyoming maybe, but in the NYC greater metro area, never. I didn't realize how fortunate I am.

I live in Astoria, in Queens, and I get all channels broadcasting from the ESB flawlessly (except today the WNET signal is crap).

Live in Astoria, Queens. Can get all major channels and sub-channels crystal clear except WLIW 21 - no signal at all. Wondering what other people's reception of WLIW is like that live within the five boroughs. I know at least one person in Brooklyn is getting WLIW great, but has another problem that I don't have.

My antenna is a set of rabbit ears and my reception is flawless except for WLIW 21. Can't figure out why in Astoria, Queens, I would get no signal at all. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero!
WLIW 21's transmitter is east of you out in Plainsview/Garden City, Nassau just a stone's throw north of the LIE and the signal is just so-so to begin with. A decent 30 mile range directional UHF antenna will lock the signal hard if you point it correctly. Not a biggie with a roof antenna since I'd done it for years. With an indoor antenna, I doubt you'd get a solid lock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLIW
It's definitely worth getting because it's got three good educational stations. PBS, PBS World and Create. Hell, even TimeWarner Cable only gives you PBS and not the other two subchannels.

2) cable/sat is too much money to be paying every month -- even on a good economy.

Yep, this is why I dumped cable. It's a total rip off and the prices kept going up and up and up for channels I never watched. I sat down and looked at everything I regularly watch on television (when I did watch television, which wasn't much) and realized that everything I did watch was available free over the air. I was paying $15 a month for the privelege of the cable company delivering the OTA channels to me, then $17.95 for the DVR cable box, then $48.99 for their "Signature" tier which included all the mainstream cable/sat channels like CNN, Bravo, The Weather Channel, ESPN, etc etc. So that was $81.94 a month, $983.28 a year for TELEVISION. I started thinking what else I could do with almost a thousand dollars a year other than throw it down the drain for television channels that A) I never watched, B) were lots of filler and crap (CNN) and C) huge blocks of the same show over and over again (Bravo, TNT, TBS, Travel Channel the list goes on and on).

The only way you'd ever get me to pay to have video piped into my home again is if I was living in an area where the OTA signal just wasn't good enough or receivable.

WLIW 21's transmitter is east of you out in Plainsview/Garden City, Nassau just a stone's throw north of the LIE and the signal is just so-so to begin with. A decent 30 mile range directional UHF antenna will lock the signal hard if you point it correctly. Not a biggie with a roof antenna since I'd done it for years. With an indoor antenna, I doubt you'd get a solid lock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLIW
It's definitely worth getting because it's got three good educational stations. PBS, PBS World and Create. Hell, even TimeWarner Cable only gives you PBS and not the other two subchannels.

Unfortunately I can only use an indoor antenna and I'm getting everything coming from the ESB perfectly, in general, with a pair of dipole rabbit ears. I was thinking of trying the RCA ANT1550 though. I hate the look of rabbit ears and other antennas and I like how the 1550 would hang flat on, and blend in with, a white wall. I'd like to get WLIW, but it's not that important, if it means having some ugly, gross looking antenna sitting in my living room.

Every apartment building in the NYC greater metro area should be required by law to put up a master antenna on the rooftops. I never lived in an apartment or project so I never realized that people had problems with reception for the major channels. I'd heard the term master antenna long time ago so I figured all the tall buildings had them up there. It's just crazy to offer people converter boxes and have almost nothing worthwhile to hook them up to.

My 70+-year old god-aunt lives in a second-floor apartment in Brooklyn and she had to end up getting basic Cablevision because even though she had bought a converter box and an RCA 1500 (non-amp) Flat antenna, she couldn't get any decent signals due to the direction her apartment is facing. She always had a limited choice of stations, but this changeover really whacked her signals for her favorite shows. A pretty sad state of affairs for the elderly or limited income viewers.

Every apartment building in the NYC greater metro area should be required by law to put up a master antenna on the rooftops. I never lived in an apartment or project so I never realized that people had problems with reception for the major channels. I'd heard the term master antenna long time ago so I figured all the tall buildings had them up there. It's just crazy to offer people converter boxes and have almost nothing worthwhile to hook them up to.

My 70+-year old god-aunt lives in a second-floor apartment in Brooklyn and she had to end up getting basic Cablevision because even though she had bought a converter box and an RCA 1500 (non-amp) Flat antenna, she couldn't get any decent signals due to the direction her apartment is facing. She always had a limited choice of stations, but this changeover really whacked her signals for her favorite shows. A pretty sad state of affairs for the elderly or limited income viewers.

Like I said, I get everything perfectly except WLIW so I'm lucky I suppose? Plus I'm pretty much LOS with the ESB and it's literally just "over there" from where I am. This building I am in (built in 1988/1989) did at one time have a master Antenna on the roof, but it was taken down long ago (before I moved in) once people started paying for cable and satellite. There are RF jacks built into the wall in the living room and the bedrooms that used to be connected to the building's master antenna.

And who is going to pay for the installation and maintenance of a master antenna system?

If it were to be done, which it isn't, after the initial outlay - which could be substantial -monthly fees would be added to tenants' rent - to all the tenants, not just the ones who wanted the service.

What next?

Let's legislate air conditioning in every apartment - at least air conditioning has health benefits.

The YA1713 (note correct model number) is intended for channels 7 - 13, not FM radio.

You would do best to ADD the YA1713 to the 7777/91XG and keep the FM antenna separate (and filtered out) of the TV down-lead.

Sorry about the slip up on the model number. Between the TV antenna setup, a scanner discone, diamond x-500 dual 2m/70cm, v2000a tribander, the 5 band HF vertical, the 150 foot random wire, the dedicated NWS SAME alert antenna, the longwire and the IBOC AM antenna I am running out of roof and attic space. I was hoping FM would be part of the YA1713..

So was there a design change in the YA1713 or is this a photo mismatch on the part of Winegard?

And who is going to pay for the installation and maintenance of a master antenna system?

If it were to be done, which it isn't, after the initial outlay - which could be substantial -monthly fees would be added to tenants' rent - to all the tenants, not just the ones who wanted the service.

What next?

Let's legislate air conditioning in every apartment - at least air conditioning has health benefits.

Maintenance of a master antenna system? What kind of maintenance? The antenna is installed and if properly done should work fine for at least 10 years. The cost? Add it to the cost of rent/building fees. You aren't talking a major capitol expense. If the wiring is in place it's a minimal cost to have a buildibg antenna. Years ago when I lived in an apartment in the NY suburb there was a master antenna system or you could choose cable service. Some in here are making too much of a rather simple servive most buildings at one time or another have supplied since the 1950's.

Yep, this is why I dumped cable. It's a total rip off and the prices kept going up and up and up for channels I never watched. I sat down and looked at everything I regularly watch on television (when I did watch television, which wasn't much) and realized that everything I did watch was available free over the air. I was paying $15 a month for the privelege of the cable company delivering the OTA channels to me, then $17.95 for the DVR cable box, then $48.99 for their "Signature" tier which included all the mainstream cable/sat channels like CNN, Bravo, The Weather Channel, ESPN, etc etc. So that was $81.94 a month, $983.28 a year for TELEVISION. I started thinking what else I could do with almost a thousand dollars a year other than throw it down the drain for television channels that A) I never watched, B) were lots of filler and crap (CNN) and C) huge blocks of the same show over and over again (Bravo, TNT, TBS, Travel Channel the list goes on and on).

The only way you'd ever get me to pay to have video piped into my home again is if I was living in an area where the OTA signal just wasn't good enough or receivable.

My feelings exactly! I have DISH network and am spending $73.99/mo for the Gold 250 pkg, inc $5/mo for locals. You are right, that's $875/yr I can think of better things to do with! I will miss a few channels (30 to be exact) IF I can attain reliable OTA reception out here on eastern LI. But I suppose I will gain the WLIW PBS ch and sub's, etc.

My feelings exactly! I have DISH network and am spending $73.99/mo for the Gold 250 pkg, inc $5/mo for locals. You are right, that's $875/yr I can think of better things to do with! I will miss a few channels (30 to be exact) IF I can attain reliable OTA reception out here on eastern LI. But I suppose I will gain the WLIW PBS ch and sub's, etc.

Actually that's $947.88 per year (that you are paying to DISH)!

Hello all, I just finished reading this thread from the beginning and am perplexed about the way this whole thing was/is being handled and the decisions that were made, and was wondering if anyone can shed some light on things....
Here are my questions:

1. It seems most people were unaware of how things were going to change as far as UHF stations moving to VHF, the types of antennas that will be required following the switch, and what level of reception you should've been striving to achieve during analog to reliably receive digital. Why the apparent lack of education? It's like all they did was blow sunshine up everyone's a$$ and not discuss the realities of the situation - "Get a digital converter box" is not the only information that was needed! It seems the majority of people out there are clueless, and that's shameful!!!

2. Why did the FCC continue to allow low VHF transmission (ch 2-6) for DTV knowing these freq's are prone to problems?

3. For that matter why did they allow even hi VHF, and clip the UHF band to only ch 51? Would it not have made more sense to set the new range from ch 14-63, thus allowing the entire country to use one [UHF] antenna??? (And if standardized at less than an octave of frequency range I'm sure we would've seen some nice performing, compact antenna designs too!) I understand you need less power to transmit on VHF, but do the few stations that transmit in VHF carry that much weight? And the so-called "savings" has apparently backfired anyway, as now they're going to have to up the power to achieve penetration of DTV - so where's the savings? It's created nothing but headaches...

4. How is it that after more than 50 freaking years of analog transmission in VHF they couldn't figure the proper power levels these stations would need to achieve digital signal penetration when moved back to hi VHF? It now seems to be a well known fact that if you had marginal reception in analog you wouldn't be able to attain a DTV signal lock. I mean, this really doesn't seem like rocket science here... A couple of polls, a few surveys - hell they spend millions on studies all the time that the average 8 year old could tell the outcome of, and then they butcher the living crap out of this? Pisses me off!

5. As was mentioned, the pre-transition arrangement of channels WAS temporary. My question is, if all was working WHY WEREN'T THEY JUST MADE PERMANENT??? (And as I understand it, many stations also weren't even broadcasting at full power in these temp positions - and there was still decent reception!)

6. Someone was trying to draw a parallel between the DTV transition and the 9/11 disaster - I don't see it. It would seem the powers that be had PLENTY of time to prepare for this - on 9/11 there was none... And with all this time to prep you'd expect things to come off without a hitch... For the most part anyway, I accept sometimes Murphy's on your shoulder, but by the end of the first week you'd think they'd have things squared away. (When you've got people 8 or 10 miles from the ESB not being able to receive a VHF signal you've got some serious issues! I thought it was the hi UHF that was supposed to be troublesome - LOL!)

7. I was HOPING that this DTV transition would actually INCREASE the ability to receive OTA transmissions - that the networks would WANT to increase their OTA viewer base - because with all these sub channels (that won't be carried by cable/sat.) they can increase their revenue from commercials, but apparently that was overly optimistic... (As is also ever seeing some of the better cable/sat channels go OTA I suppose.)

If I seem annoyed it's only because I am. I live in Shirley, (eastern LI) 58.5 miles from the ESB and even back in the early 90's analog VHF reception here was all but impossible. I built a trial Grey-Hoverman just to see what I could pick up out here and it looks somewhat promising from ground level. Monday evening I was able to get a lock on 42 stations. (Inc subs, although many were Spanish, Korean, 10 channels of WFME (9 radio only), and 1 Chinese station. I even got ION & WNJN for a bit!) I did also get WNYW and WCBS using a DTVPAL and a radioshack 10dB inline amp. (#15-2505) but I fear without spending serious dollars on a giant, ugly VHF antenna I have no shot at getting 7, 11 or 13... :mad:

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get that off my chest.
Any thoughts?

Actually that's $947.88 per year (that you are paying to DISH)!

Oops, typo - it's 72.99/mo (including the $5/mo for locals) or $875.88/yr.

Maintenance of a master antenna system? What kind of maintenance? The antenna is installed and if properly done should work fine for at least 10 years. The cost? Add it to the cost of rent/building fees. You aren't talking a major capitol expense. If the wiring is in place it's a minimal cost to have a buildibg antenna. Years ago when I lived in an apartment in the NY suburb there was a master antenna system or you could choose cable service. Some in here are making too much of a rather simple servive most buildings at one time or another have supplied since the 1950's.

What exactly does a master antenna system consist of besides the antenna? I would assume an Apt VHF/UHF amp and some kind of distribution block or several spliiters, right? Assuming this is like a 50 unit bldg.

Anyone seeing 70-1, 71-1, etc on a DTVPal needs to do a full factory reset. It's a bug in the way the DTVPal handles stations that change settings on their encoder.

- Trip

there is a law on the books that any multiple dwelling unit over a certain amount of units (i forget..i think may be 20 or more) are required to provide a master antenna for its tenants. with the proliferation of cable and satellite over the past 20 years, that law is hardly enforced unless people complain.

Every apartment building in the NYC greater metro area should be required by law to put up a master antenna on the rooftops. I never lived in an apartment or project so I never realized that people had problems with reception for the major channels. I'd heard the term master antenna long time ago so I figured all the tall buildings had them up there. It's just crazy to offer people converter boxes and have almost nothing worthwhile to hook them up to.

My 70+-year old god-aunt lives in a second-floor apartment in Brooklyn and she had to end up getting basic Cablevision because even though she had bought a converter box and an RCA 1500 (non-amp) Flat antenna, she couldn't get any decent signals due to the direction her apartment is facing. She always had a limited choice of stations, but this changeover really whacked her signals for her favorite shows. A pretty sad state of affairs for the elderly or limited income viewers.

there is a cost to maintain those systems. in older bigger buildings there were mini headends on the rooftop of the buildings. ch 2 - 13 each would have a "strip amp" for each channel, combined, amplified then sent down to the apartments. because of the varying levels received by the antenna the 7 or so strip amps would all put out about the same level.

after 9/11, contractors that maintained the thousands of master antenna systems thoughout the city were busy for weeks redirecting antenna from WTC to empire state.


Maintenance of a master antenna system? What kind of maintenance? The antenna is installed and if properly done should work fine for at least 10 years. The cost? Add it to the cost of rent/building fees. You aren't talking a major capitol expense. If the wiring is in place it's a minimal cost to have a buildibg antenna. Years ago when I lived in an apartment in the NY suburb there was a master antenna system or you could choose cable service. Some in here are making too much of a rather simple servive most buildings at one time or another have supplied since the 1950's.

On Friday I'll be arriving in New Jersey and will be capturing new TSReader data. Anything fun that I should look for?

Also, on Saturday morning we'll be driving up to White Plains. I'm hoping to capture stations from Long Island, Connecticut, and upstate New York. Is there any hope of that? I know that the Hartford stations are probably out of reach, but I'm thinking maybe these:

WRNN, WTBY, WLIW, WFTY, WLNY, WEDW, WSAH, WCTX. If I manage to bring my VHF bowtie, I'll try for WTNH as well.

Any opinions?

- Trip

On Friday I'll be arriving in New Jersey and will be capturing new TSReader data. Anything fun that I should look for?

Also, on Saturday morning we'll be driving up to White Plains. I'm hoping to capture stations from Long Island, Connecticut, and upstate New York. Is there any hope of that? I know that the Hartford stations are probably out of reach, but I'm thinking maybe these:

WRNN, WTBY, WLIW, WFTY, WLNY, WEDW, WSAH, WCTX. If I manage to bring my VHF bowtie, I'll try for WTNH as well.

Any opinions?

- Trip

If you find yourself travelling around Central New Jersey (between Princeton and Bridgewater), test for channel 31 from Philly and then from New York City. It would be interesting what you observe. Current theory is that signals of approximate equal strength may be cause of inability to receive ION from NYC at some locations in this area.

Frank
WA2ISK

I'm taking I-78 E across to I-287 N, and that's as far south as I will be. I've barely decoded WNJT from 78 in New Jersey, and otherwise I see the Philly stations in Allentown. (I won't be seeing WPVI this time, though, most likely.)

Actually the intersection of 287 and 78 is right next to WNJB-DT 8, and I don't think I've ever decoded them either.

- Trip

If you find yourself travelling around Central New Jersey (between Princeton and Bridgewater), test for channel 31 from Philly and then from New York City. It would be interesting what you observe. Current theory is that signals of approximate equal strength may be cause of inability to receive ION from NYC at some locations in this area.

Frank
WA2ISK
I wonder if that's why ION is the only station broadcasting from ESB that I don't get reliably. It is slowly coming back as the weather clears up here in Jersey.

I'm taking I-78 E across to I-287 N, and that's as far south as I will be. I've barely decoded WNJT from 78 in New Jersey, and otherwise I see the Philly stations in Allentown. (I won't be seeing WPVI this time, though, most likely.)

Actually the intersection of 287 and 78 is right next to WNJB-DT 8, and I don't think I've ever decoded them either.

- Trip

You will be getting on I287N at intersection (milemarker) 21

As a reference-

T-Max is near exit 17 on I287
WNJB-DT 8 New Brunswick is a few miles south of exit 10 (if it is where I think it is)
I am about 10 miles south of exit 12
You can see our reception posts on this and the Philadelphia forums.
So you would have to detour 10 or 15 miles south on I287 to validate our findings.

Frank
WA2ISK

1. It seems most people were unaware of how things were going to change.... Why the apparent lack of education?

This is the real world. It is everyone's own responsibility to get an education on this topic. There is plenty of real world results documented on the internet years before the cut over.

It's like all they did was blow sunshine up everyone's a$$ and not discuss the realities of the situation - "Get a digital converter box" is not the only information that was needed! It seems the majority of people out there are clueless, and that's shameful!!!

Some people don't care, some people some one else will do it for them,
some people do not have a technical background and do not understand even if all the information was put on their plate.

2. Why did the FCC continue to allow low VHF transmission (ch 2-6) for DTV knowing these freq's are prone to problems?

In NYC metro it is VHF highband and UHF. I can't speak for other parts of the country.

3. For that matter why did they allow even hi VHF, and clip the UHF band to only ch 51?

Nothing wrong with high VHF if it is done right. UHF is affected by trees, foliage, moisture, and more line of sight than VHF highband. The key here is that this seems to still be an experiment in progress, (like Win95) and has a long way to go till perfection. I suspect it will take another year for things to settle down.

Would it not have made more sense to set the new range from ch 14-63, thus allowing the entire country to use one [UHF] antenna???

Each region has different unique reception obstacles that need to be overcome. UHF and VHF offer different sets of reception parameters that may be good or bad in different regions.

It's created nothing but headaches...

For some of us, like me who have to go out and purchase another antenna, spend $50 and roof time in order to catch 3 VHF stations, it is probably worth the cost compared to the easy way out of signing your bankroll away with cable. Think of current ATSC deployment as version 1.0, a work in progress rather than a finished, polished final product and you will understand the issues that crop up.

4. How is it that after more than 50 freaking years of analog transmission in VHF they couldn't figure the proper power levels these stations would need to achieve digital signal penetration when moved back to hi VHF?

Good question. I think it is a balance of xmitter cost, performance, RF safety, and RFI to other services. Complain to the FCC and the broadcasters NOW while nothing is set in concrete and they might sink money into plant and labor.

5. As was mentioned, the pre-transition arrangement of channels WAS temporary. My question is, if all was working WHY WEREN'T THEY JUST MADE PERMANENT???

Some stations were xmitting on channels that were going away. Some stations did not invest in full output plant on their temp assignment freqs. Some were waiting for other stations to move to a different musical chair. The FCC seems to be a political driven monster rather than technically driven.


(And as I understand it, many stations also weren't even broadcasting at full power in these temp positions - and there was still decent reception!)

For some, not all.

6.... For the most part anyway, I accept sometimes Murphy's on your shoulder, but by the end of the first week you'd think they'd have things squared away.

I suspect it will take at least a year for it all to settle down

7. I was HOPING that this DTV transition would actually INCREASE the ability to receive OTA transmissions

You get more sub channels.. but is the program content worth the effort. so far for me the answer is no.

If I seem annoyed it's only because I am. I live in Shirley, (eastern LI) 58.5 miles from the ESB and even back in the early 90's analog VHF reception here was all but impossible.

My grandparents lived in Rocky Point in the 70's
They had a big old roof top antenna and rotor on their single story ranch near the north end of the William Floyd and the sod farms. They captured enough analog signal on VHF from the WTC to get a usable but snowy picture. With careful choosing of today's better components and proper install I bet you stand a better chance of pulling in a signal than they did, unless your location is plain terrible.


I built a trial Grey-Hoverman just to see what I could pick up out here and it looks somewhat promising from ground level. Monday evening I was able to get a lock on 42 stations. (Inc subs, although many were Spanish, Korean, 10 channels of WFME (9 radio only), and 1 Chinese station. I even got ION & WNJN for a bit!) I did also get WNYW and WCBS using a DTVPAL and a radioshack 10dB inline amp. (#15-2505) but I fear without spending serious dollars on a giant, ugly VHF antenna I have no shot at getting 7, 11 or 13... :mad:

There are better choices than radio shack preamps, especially in the fringe. Radio Shack preamps has wasted more of my time than I can count. Try a channel master 7777. World of difference and worth every penny. I am 50 miles NW of NYC.

There are better choices than radio shack preamps, especially in the fringe. Radio Shack preamps has wasted more of my time than I can count. Try a channel master 7777. World of difference and worth every penny. I am 50 miles NW of NYC.[/B]

I just looked at the box and that's the preamp that I installed. Will the 7777 be that much better real-world?

I couldn't really find any stats on the RS amp, what about the Channel master.

I've only had the RS for a week so I could return it if the channel master is that much better.

I got the Terk HDTVa which is the amplified version of the Terk HDTVi. Reception wise I don't notice any difference in stations. Stations that I can get I get the same signal strength if the amp is on or off. Maybe if it is on it is a couple of points higher but I can't notice a difference. I was not expecting miracles in reception. Still was not a waste of money because the HDTVi I am given to my mother to try on her converter box. The only thing about the HDTVa is that it always has to be plugged into a power socket. If you connect it without the amp the reception is terrible. Can't get any stations. When you connect the amp if it is on or off it seems the same signal strength as the HDTVi.

So you would have to detour 10 or 15 miles south on I287 to validate our findings.

Frank
WA2ISK

If it was just me in the car, I would.

My mom has to be there by a certain time for a wedding that evening, so we can't really take any detours this time.

I absolutely would not be surprised in the least if it turned out that the two were interfering with each other in that area. I must wonder if ION will consider some kind of translator in central New Jersey to allow them some kind of watchable signal.

- Trip

I just looked at the box and that's the preamp that I installed. Will the 7777 be that much better real-world?

I couldn't really find any stats on the RS amp, what about the Channel master.

I've only had the RS for a week so I could return it if the channel master is that much better.

Living in deep fringe you need the best of everything to grab a signal. The CM 7777 has the best signal to noise ratio ratings with the exception of a custom built preamp from the UK. During analog days I was using a Radio Shack VU190 antenna and radio shack preamps with lousy results. Switching to the CM7777 resulted in impressive improvements for me.

If it was just me in the car, I would.

My mom has to be there by a certain time for a wedding that evening, so we can't really take any detours this time.

I absolutely would not be surprised in the least if it turned out that the two were interfering with each other in that area. I must wonder if ION will consider some kind of translator in central New Jersey to allow them some kind of watchable signal.

- Trip

Well, it would have been interesting to compare your reception observations to ours, but I guess you have your priorities right. Have a good trip, Trip

On Friday I'll be arriving in New Jersey and will be capturing new TSReader data. Anything fun that I should look for?

Also, on Saturday morning we'll be driving up to White Plains. I'm hoping to capture stations from Long Island, Connecticut, and upstate New York. Is there any hope of that? I know that the Hartford stations are probably out of reach, but I'm thinking maybe these:

WRNN, WTBY, WLIW, WFTY, WLNY, WEDW, WSAH, WCTX. If I manage to bring my VHF bowtie, I'll try for WTNH as well.

Any opinions?

- Trip
Hi Trip,

Be interesting to note the WEDW DT-49 Bridgeport change since the ERP increased from 41 kW to 91 kW. And if there is any tickle of WEDH DT-45 Hartford.

I'd like to do some testing, I just can't get down the road to do it. Also, it's hard to test in the car because there's so much noise and a lot of reflections. I generally capture data for RabbitEars when I'm close to the transmitter.

- Trip

Hi Trip,

Be interesting to note the WEDW DT-49 Bridgeport change since the ERP increased from 41 kW to 91 kW. And if there is any tickle of WEDH DT-45 Hartford.

I've never seen either one in NJ, and this'll be my first time in White Plains, but I'll be looking for your signals. I'll let you know what I see.

I'd look for WEDY but I doubt it'll make it there, and my VHF bowtie isn't fantastic.

- Trip

If it was just me in the car, I would.

My mom has to be there by a certain time for a wedding that evening, so we can't really take any detours this time.

I absolutely would not be surprised in the least if it turned out that the two were interfering with each other in that area. I must wonder if ION will consider some kind of translator in central New Jersey to allow them some kind of watchable signal.

- Trip

Are you staying in a camper? I am so confused:confused:

Nah, staying with my grandparents in Fair Lawn on Friday night. Have to do some visiting in White Plains on Saturday, then we're heading out to the Poconos until Wednesday-ish. No digital reception there.

- Trip

Nah, staying with my grandparents in Fair Lawn on Friday night. Have to do some visiting in White Plains on Saturday, then we're heading out to the Poconos until Wednesday-ish. No digital reception there.

- Trip

ok I thought I read you bringing your box and antenna? To test signal? Did I read all wrong?:confused::confused::confused::confused:

ok I thought I read you bringing your box and antenna? To test signal? Did I read all wrong?:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Yep. I drag my "DTV Reception Kit" with me whenever I go somewhere. My site won't get TSReader data by itself! :D

- Power inverter
- Computer
- DViCO Fusion5HDTV-USB
- Zenith DTT900
- CM7777 Amp
- Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna
- Standard rabbit ears

And new for this trip, my VHF bowtie.

- Trip

Yep. I drag my "DTV Reception Kit" with me whenever I go somewhere. My site won't get TSReader data by itself! :D

- Power inverter
- Computer
- DViCO Fusion5HDTV-USB
- Zenith DTT900
- CM7777 Amp
- Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna
- Standard rabbit ears

And new for this trip, my VHF bowtie.

- Trip
You travel by plane? I could never bring all that. Even with a car lol. Man you got the bug bad. Tell us what happens lol

Living in deep fringe you need the best of everything to grab a signal. The CM 7777 has the best signal to noise ratio ratings with the exception of a custom built preamp from the UK. During analog days I was using a Radio Shack VU190 antenna and radio shack preamps with lousy results. Switching to the CM7777 resulted in impressive improvements for me.

I just looked at the box and that's the preamp that I installed. Will the 7777 be that much better real-world?

I couldn't really find any stats on the RS amp, what about the Channel master.

I've only had the RS for a week so I could return it if the channel master is that much better.

No doubt a Channel Master will be better! I couldn't find any noise specs on the RS amp either, but I just picked it up out of convenience for testing purposes. I plan on returning it tomorrow.

The CM7777 is pretty powerful, and I was advised against this as I have some strong signals out of Smithtown than may overload if using this amp. An HDP269 (12 dB Gain, 3 dB noise) was recommended instead. If you're seeing somewhat decent results with the RS and have any strong transmissions within beam on your TVfool then this may work for you also.

Either way, dump the RS for a CM.

I am all for the digital switch but for YEARS the HDTV channels were set and working properly then at the last minute they change them around. Who was the idiot that thought that up? He should be fired at the very least.

Totally agree. I couldn't have said it better. :mad:

- RadioShack UFO (Amp)
- Terk HDTVa (Amp)
- Terk TV55 (Amp)

for the last 3 days i've been playing with the 3 antennas listed above and now i'm ready to report my experiences. i tried them at several different spots and in several different configurations.

i can say with certainty that the TV55 is useless in my place (8mi north of ESB). it performed poorly on the UHF band and it could never receive the 3 VHF channels. also, i'd like to point out that the TV55's shape and length make it somewhat inflexible for use indoors. i'm not saying this is a bad antenna.... i'm just saying it didnt suit my particular setup. the fact i live in a sort of valley makes reception rather difficult.

regarding the UFO and the HDTVa, both performed well on the UHF band, getting all major UHF channels! however, that was expected since my home-made loop had also worked great! either UHF is a more forgiving band, or these channels are being broadcast with adequate power....

the real test for HDTVa and UFO was the reception of the high VHF channels. well, neither could receive ABC or CW! on the other hand, i did (finally) get Thirteen! :) the problem is, most of the time, Thirteen's signal ocillates between 0 and 50%. however, at 2 very particular spots, both antennas can receive PBS at a watchable level (40%). unfortunately, that requires very precise positioning and stretching of the dipoles (also, an 150 degrees angle works best). very annoying....it's like dealing with a goddamn celebrity! and this whole "circus" becomes pointless when the weather changes because the signal drops to zero, anyway. :mad:



well, anyone living within 10mi of ESB in Jersey or Brooklyn should get decent reception of channel 13.1 using the HDTVa or UFO. the UHF channels would probably look great even 15mi away! the HDTVa is my favourite of the 3! btw, i learned something interesting from this experience: amplifiers make a huge difference! i could not get 13.1 with the amps off!

so now i want to buy a separate (and stronger) amplifier to use in place of the one bundled with the Terk HDTVa. could you guys recommend a good amp for use indoors? i think i should get one on which the level can be adjusted so to avoid overloading the converter box. should i get 10, 20 or 30db? any suggestions?

i think i'll try one more antenna as well.... one with more emphasis on the VHF band -- since it's clear to me that UHF is a no-brainer in my location. does anyone here have experience with the Winegard HD-1080 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-1080)? do you guys agree that it should perform better (than the HDTVa/UFO) on high VHF?

Thanks! I also have a Terk HDTVa and in 3 miles of the ESB. I cannot get Channel 7 (no signal AT ALL) and Channel 11 (pixellation / freezing, not watchable). It's def. the antenna. but good to know it was at least the best among the three. :p I'm lookin forward to your results with Winegard HD-1080. :D

I thought EVERYONE that watched TV in Manhattan had cable. OTA=Wow! Cable just for the reason of getting a hundred+ channels. Jeez, where I live in Queens, there are single resident homes with like three or four (DishTV) dishes stuck in various places. Even apartments have them hanging next to windows, yeah, even in Flushing and Jamaica. I never knew there was an enforceable law that said you can't have a dish antenna.

My obviously crazy assumption was that people in Manhattan, since they're practically bathed in the glow of the ESB that if they really wanted to, they could just hang some tiny VHF/UHF antenna out their windows to get a solid signal. I can't believe in the year 2009 that people are fighting for just a few measly TV channels. I guess America really is behind the eight ball. I never would have guessed it. In Wyoming maybe, but in the NYC greater metro area, never. I didn't realize how fortunate I am.

LOL! You guessed something right but assumed something else a bit wrong. I live in the UES section of Manhattan and have cable wiring into my house, I have TWC subscription too. I can of course watch all channels provided OTA on my television thanks to cable. But I'm into OTA reception because I have an ATSC tuner on my computer, and by tuning in on a computer, I can record HD shows, edit, and save as much as I like permanently (as opposed to cable company's HD-DVR that has limited storage) on blu-ray disks and external hard drives. :p ;)

I am also shocked by all the mess this transition is causing. People who have been able to tune into channels pre-transition have now lost some network channels. Hope this is temporary and will be fixed soon, but still, a part of me says coulnd't they plan it better? LOL! We are after all talkin about major network BAISC channels in the biggest metropolitan area of the nation.

Every apartment building in the NYC greater metro area should be required by law to put up a master antenna on the rooftops. I never lived in an apartment or project so I never realized that people had problems with reception for the major channels. I'd heard the term master antenna long time ago so I figured all the tall buildings had them up there. It's just crazy to offer people converter boxes and have almost nothing worthwhile to hook them up to.

My 70+-year old god-aunt lives in a second-floor apartment in Brooklyn and she had to end up getting basic Cablevision because even though she had bought a converter box and an RCA 1500 (non-amp) Flat antenna, she couldn't get any decent signals due to the direction her apartment is facing. She always had a limited choice of stations, but this changeover really whacked her signals for her favorite shows. A pretty sad state of affairs for the elderly or limited income viewers.


Awww! Really feel for her. :( I agree about the mandating rooftop antennas for buildings. That would really make everybody's life easier. And at least the availability of some channels are necessary for informing public of emergencies. It makes sense to do that by mandating rooftops. ;)

You travel by plane? I could never bring all that. Even with a car lol. Man you got the bug bad. Tell us what happens lol

No, this is by car. And I've had some variation of this kit since 2003! The digital TV receivers have changed, an analog-only receiver was removed, I added rabbit ears to the kit, and I have a newer computer now, but otherwise the kit is the same set of gear I had in 2003.

- Trip

Thanks! I also have a Terk HDTVa and in 3 miles of the ESB. I cannot get Channel 7 (no signal AT ALL) and Channel 11 (pixellation / freezing, not watchable). It's def. the antenna. but good to know it was at least the best among the three. :p I'm lookin forward to your results with Winegard HD-1080. :D

I have the Terk HDTVa. I also used the HDTVi and they are both the best antennas I have used. Don't believe the myths spread here that all Terks are junk. Four miles from the ESB Channel 7 is the strongest of the high VHF channels. I am able to peak it in the low 70's. Channel 13 I can usually only get in the mid 50's and on a good day in the mid 60's but it does not break up. What is weird about channel 13 is that if I stand in front of the antenna I can get it in the mid 60's to sometimes the low 70's but as soon as I walk away it drops in the mid 50's. The highest I am able to peak channel 11 is in the low 50's and once again it is better when I stand in front of the antenna. Normally it is in the 40's and breaks up a lot and most of the time it is in the 20's. They need to do something about channel 11. It has been over a week and I still can't get it reliably.

Every apartment building in the NYC greater metro area should be required by law to put up a master antenna on the rooftops. I never lived in an apartment or project so I never realized that people had problems with reception for the major channels. I'd heard the term master antenna long time ago so I figured all the tall buildings had them up there. It's just crazy to offer people converter boxes and have almost nothing worthwhile to hook them up to.

My 70+-year old god-aunt lives in a second-floor apartment in Brooklyn and she had to end up getting basic Cablevision because even though she had bought a converter box and an RCA 1500 (non-amp) Flat antenna, she couldn't get any decent signals due to the direction her apartment is facing. She always had a limited choice of stations, but this changeover really whacked her signals for her favorite shows. A pretty sad state of affairs for the elderly or limited income viewers.

Tell me about it.... My 97 year old mother (who still lives alone!) was complaining bitterly when I got her a converter box and swapped her antenna. She kept on complaining over and over about how the govt had no right to mess with TV and old people don't know what to do. And she was so right. All of her elderly neighbors have had to either resort to cable (which is avail in her building) or have someone install the convert box and play around with various antennas to make things work. She had a "window mount" antenna (remember those?) for the last 30 years or so that was marginal to begin with and over the years the elements have essentially disappeared leaving only a very small UHF element. While that worked for analog UHF it did nothing for digital. A flat RCA UFH in her window (which thankfully faces north toward the ESB) works great - even on the VHF stations (although WABC is a bit low in terms of signal but the Digital Stream box pulls it in an locks up just fine).

Hi,

I'm located in the Bronx, 10465. About 10.7 miles from the Empire State Building transmitter.

Just put up a Winegard 7694P on the roof this weekend. Reception has been perfect on calm days. But the antenna is pointing straight into our neighbor's huge, ancient tree which is blocking a big portion of the field of view from our roof. On windy days it is unpredictable. Channel 4.1 WNBC (UHF 28) will usually be unusable, and there will often be problems with the other major networks, including some of the ones on VHF. But other channels will work fine.

Since this is obviously a challenging reception environment, I realize there may be nothing I can do. But since some channels continue to work fine, I'm tempted to try a pre-amp or a rotor. Is there a chance this will be worthwhile?

I am getting channel 13 stronger now. It is staying in the mid 60's.

I'm out here in Lake Hopatcong/Jefferson Township and I'm 36.3 over-the-air miles from the ESB at an elevation of 1,100 feet. I got an RCA ANT525 indoor amplified UHF/VHF/FM antenna and I'm unable to get WNYW, WABC, WPIX, WNET, WPXN and WNJN/WNJB. WCBS, WNBC and WWOR come in perfectly..which is how I'm able to watch WNYW but I'm referencing getting direct signals. WMBC does come in perfectly but the spanish channels go in and out but I could care less about WMBC and the non-english channels. No matter what I mount the antenna...Which is facing northwest...which I know don't help any...Can't get the remaining channels when I could receive them clear enough to watch previously. I only got an 8 bar system for signal strength on this HDTV, no numbers. Those High VHF stations need to increase power big time.

I have the Terk HDTVa. I also used the HDTVi and they are both the best antennas I have used. Don't believe the myths spread here that all Terks are junk. Four miles from the ESB Channel 7 is the strongest of the high VHF channels. I am able to peak it in the low 70's. Channel 13 I can usually only get in the mid 50's and on a good day in the mid 60's but it does not break up. What is weird about channel 13 is that if I stand in front of the antenna I can get it in the mid 60's to sometimes the low 70's but as soon as I walk away it drops in the mid 50's. The highest I am able to peak channel 11 is in the low 50's and once again it is better when I stand in front of the antenna. Normally it is in the 40's and breaks up a lot and most of the time it is in the 20's. They need to do something about channel 11. It has been over a week and I still can't get it reliably.

I find it very interesting. We both have some issues with those channels. You get decent Channel 7, I don't get it at all. Channel 11 has been weird, I had okay picture right after the transition but begain to pixelate and finally I was not able to pick up this morning. Channel 13, it's been between 65 to 80% for me as well.

We have the same antenna and live in about the same distance. What makes the difference between us for Channel 7, to a point Channel 11? The direction or me having more skyscrapers around me? :confused:

I'm out here in Lake Hopatcong/Jefferson Township and I'm 36.3 over-the-air miles from the ESB at an elevation of 1,100 feet. I got an RCA ANT525 indoor amplified UHF/VHF/FM antenna and I'm unable to get WNYW, WABC, WPIX, WNET, WPXN and WNJN/WNJB. WCBS, WNBC and WWOR come in perfectly..which is how I'm able to watch WNYW but I'm referencing getting direct signals. WMBC does come in perfectly but the spanish channels go in and out but I could care less about WMBC and the non-english channels. No matter what I mount the antenna...Which is facing northwest...which I know don't help any...Can't get the remaining channels when I could receive them clear enough to watch previously. I only got an 8 bar system for signal strength on this HDTV, no numbers. Those High VHF stations need to increase power big time.

I wouldn't expect any rabbit ear setup, amplified or not, to work at that distance from the ESB. In the Bronx at 10.7 miles from the ESB I couldn't pick up any VHF digital stations until I switched from rabbit ears to a rooftop setup. Now I am getting VHF ok, including 13, as long as the weather is calm (see my plea for help on windy days above!) The problem with VHF is not so much that the stations need to increase their output as it is the space required to build a VHF antenna that is electrically long enough, due to the long wavelength at that frequency. Nobody wants to put a VHF yagi indoors, but a simple UHF loop has relatively decent gain.

Lots of luck with that indoor antenna. I am closer than you by 6 miles and I have tried indoor versus outdoor and without question at our distance and indoor antenna IS NOT going to get you much reception! Amplified or not! Here is what I can now receive either directly into my HDTV or through my Channel Master converter box which will lock onto weaker signals better:

2.1
4.1
5,1
7.1
13.1 (sometimes)
25.1
31.1
42.1
50.1
58.1
63.1
68.1

And of course all the subchannels.

I have trouble receiving at all 9.1 and 11.1 at all.

From my location in Burlington County, NJ, I was receiving all NYC channels pre-transition on my outdoor UHF corner reflector. Since June 12th, I still get a very good signal on CBS2, NBC4, MY9, NYC25, NJN and WMBS63. Before adding a VHF-Hi antenna, I was wondering if there was anyone from this general area (60 miles SW) and what their experiences were on VHF (7, 11, and 13). I'm thinking about adding a YA-1713 in the near future if it's worth it.

where i live (NYC), i get UHF stations *very* well, but Hi-VHF reception is really bad. today i'll order the CM 3010 StealthTenna for use indoors. i want an amp too and i wonder if i should go with:

a) CM3038 (15dB gain. designed for StealthTenna)
b) CM7777 (big favourite on AVForums)

suggestions?

This may be obvious, but just checking. If I have a 3-way splitter, am I only getting 1/3 of the signal out to each TV?

I currently have an outdoor mid-80's RS VHF-UHF on the roof, then into a cheap RS 2505 amp. The output from the amp is sent to a 3-way splitter then on to the TV's.

Perhaps I'm lucky, but my reception is good. I get all the NY's fine, as well as 63 and 66 from North NJ, though on the farthest away TV it sometimes pixelates. TV Fool shows I'm 18 miles from ESB.

Are there any improvements to my setup that make sense? Replace the amp and splitter with a dist. amp? Or if it ain't broke don't mess with it.

Where I'm at is probably a bit too far to expect the Philly stations right? Shows as 64 miles from the Roxborough farm.

Be careful with using powered (amplified) antennas.

It depends on how close you're located to the ESB and other transmission points.

Amplified signals will also heighten "noise" and can overload tuners.

i called Thirteen regarding the strength of their signal. the representative said:

"There are no plans to increase the power any further."

that sucks! that's one of my favourite stations. :( i'll call them again later on to double-check that. ABC in Chicago increased power this weekend, so i guess they will do it in NYC too.

You shouldn't compare the Chicago area's ability to have power increased with the New York DMA.

The northeast represents a whole set of problems that other parts of the country don't have.

I hope that we see in the NY DMA power increases, but don't hold your breath.

The answer for us may very well be in the implementation of fill-in transmission sites in various parts of the city.

WNJU (Channel 36) has received FCC permission to use what had been an experimental additional antenna atop 4TS. There is also another antenna, currently not in use, on the Bloomberg Building at Lexington Avenue @ 59th Street.

Whatever the solution, we desperately need help - the Hi-Vs are a tremendous problem to a lot of us!

The Hi-VHF is a true POS for me. Even after I installed the CM3010 with CM3038 outdoor, I am still having problems receiving 7, 11, 13 consistently. Now CM3010 is known to be a good VHF antenna and its UHF gains are nothing to talk about. But still I get the UHF channels rock stable.. and the VHF channels a real PITA. Yesterday because of the cloudy weather everything was pixellated.. today I am getting 7, but 11 and 13 are heavily pixellated. I guess I will have to learn to live without 7 and 11. I was not getting 13 before.. so it doesn't matter much. One less viewer for 7 and 11.. I am not returning the CM3010 though... at least I am getting some signal, if they improve the signal or if the atomospheric conditions are good, I should be able to receive the Hi-VHF channels.

@nordlowelabs: Since you are in Manhattan, I think, you should be fine with a unamped CM4221 or even Eagle-aspen DB2 clone. The cm3010 might be little overkill.

The Hi-VHF is a true POS for me. Even after I installed the CM3010 with CM3038 outdoor, I am still having problems receiving 7, 11, 13 consistently.

@nordlowelabs: Since you are in Manhattan, I think, you should be fine with a unamped CM4221 or even Eagle-aspen DB2 clone. The cm3010 might be little overkill.

oh, man.... i was very hopeful about the CM3010 + amp.... i was ready to order it today from Amazon! now i'm not sure. the amplified RadioShack UFO gets me 40-50% sometimes. i was trying to get an improvement on that with the StealthTenna.

the DB2 is an UHF antenna. it would probably give me more trouble on the Hi-VHF front.

oh, man.... i was very hopeful about the CM3010 + amp.... i was ready to order it today from Amazon! now i'm not sure. the amplified RadioShack UFO gets me 40-50% sometimes. i was trying to get an improvement on that with the StealthTenna.

the DB2 is an UHF antenna. it would probably give me more trouble on the Hi-VHF front.

The CM3010 provides very little gain for VHF-Hi. See the specs here:
http://www.solidsignal.com/channelmaster_antenna_chart.asp

This may be obvious, but just checking. If I have a 3-way splitter, am I only getting 1/3 of the signal out to each TV?

I currently have an outdoor mid-80's RS VHF-UHF on the roof, then into a cheap RS 2505 amp. The output from the amp is sent to a 3-way splitter then on to the TV's.

Perhaps I'm lucky, but my reception is good. I get all the NY's fine, as well as 63 and 66 from North NJ, though on the farthest away TV it sometimes pixelates. TV Fool shows I'm 18 miles from ESB.

Are there any improvements to my setup that make sense? Replace the amp and splitter with a dist. amp? Or if it ain't broke don't mess with it.

Where I'm at is probably a bit too far to expect the Philly stations right? Shows as 64 miles from the Roxborough farm.

My electronics theory is a little fuzzy, but basically if you have a 3 way splitter, 1 port will be -3.5db loss and the other 2 will be -7 db loss. On the -3.5db port you will lose about 56% of the signal, while on the -7db port you will lose 80%. So that's why the amp probably helps you. Just make sure the splitter is rated up to at least 900MHZ.
As for cabling, you should have RG6 for best performance. RG59 is good until you get up into the UHF range where it starts to lose signal.

My electronics theory is a little fuzzy, but basically if you have a 3 way splitter, 1 port will be -3.5db loss and the other 2 will be -7 db loss. On the -3.5db port you will lose about 56% of the signal, while on the -7db port you will lose 80%. So that's why the amp probably helps you. Just make sure the splitter is rated up to at least 900MHZ.
As for cabling, you should have RG6 for best performance. RG59 is good until you get up into the UHF range where it starts to lose signal.

there are 2 types of 3way splitter. uneven is 3.5, 7,7 loss. even is 5.5, 5.5, 5.5 loss

My electronics theory is a little fuzzy, but basically if you have a 3 way splitter, 1 port will be -3.5db loss and the other 2 will be -7 db loss. On the -3.5db port you will lose about 56% of the signal, while on the -7db port you will lose 80%. So that's why the amp probably helps you. Just make sure the splitter is rated up to at least 900MHZ.
As for cabling, you should have RG6 for best performance. RG59 is good until you get up into the UHF range where it starts to lose signal.

there are 2 types of 3way splitter. uneven is 3.5, 7,7 loss. even is 5.5, 5.5, 5.5 loss

Thanks, I was actually checking the splitter and saw the -3.5 and the 2 -7's there and now they started making sense.

I didn't know the loss was so great though. How come it works so well even with such a loss?

As a test I changed the cabling and switched the -3.5 to the close TV and rescanned, no difference.

The splitterer says 1000MHZ.

Thanks, I was actually checking the splitter and saw the -3.5 and the 2 -7's there and now they started making sense.

I didn't know the loss was so great though. How come it works so well even with such a loss?



Because the amp is boosting the signal, but it also boosts noise.

Try bypassing the amp and see if you still get the channels. You might not need the amp.

I wouldn't expect any rabbit ear setup, amplified or not, to work at that distance from the ESB. In the Bronx at 10.7 miles from the ESB I couldn't pick up any VHF digital stations until I switched from rabbit ears to a rooftop setup. Now I am getting VHF ok, including 13, as long as the weather is calm (see my plea for help on windy days above!) The problem with VHF is not so much that the stations need to increase their output as it is the space required to build a VHF antenna that is electrically long enough, due to the long wavelength at that frequency. Nobody wants to put a VHF yagi indoors, but a simple UHF loop has relatively decent gain.


As for VHF all you need is a OUT DOOR hi band only vhf & not a vhf covering lo & hi band. The hi band only is not that big. If you are on the side of the building facing the ESB then you will get a stronger signal thorugh the window on that side.

If you are on a high enough floor like 3rd or more floor, you can lay the high band under you bed.

If you have a closet is with a shelf over the coat hanger rod you can lay the high band vhf in there if the antenna is facing the right way when laying on that shelf.
I would not get an antenna with lo band elements on it. They are big with long elements & even if you do not care how they look; they have much more wind load on the mast. If they are in an attic they are a hard to find room to lay down.

The CM3010 provides very little gain for VHF-Hi. See the specs here:
http://www.solidsignal.com/channelmaster_antenna_chart.asp

Right.. that why I used CM3038 to compensate the nagative gain for UHF and have some more for VHF. UHF comes fine.. even with a negative gain and the CM3038's 15db gain. VHF barely sneeks in. I can't obviously mount a big yagi antenna just for watching these VHF-Hi channels.

LenL wrote:

"Lots of luck with that indoor antenna. I am closer than you by 6 miles and I have tried indoor versus outdoor and without question at our distance and indoor antenna IS NOT going to get you much reception! Amplified or not! Here is what I can now receive either directly into my HDTV or through my Channel Master converter box which will lock onto weaker signals better:

2.1
4.1
5,1
7.1
13.1 (sometimes)
25.1
31.1
42.1
50.1
58.1
63.1
68.1

And of course all the subchannels.

I have trouble receiving at all 9.1 and 11.1 at all."


Well atleast you get WNYW, WABC, WNET (sometimes), WNYE, WPXN (ION), 42.1 That's either WKOB-LP or WTXF (Fox 29) out of Philadelphia, and both NJN out of Montclair and New Brunswick.

I would've setup an outside antenna by now but someone else in this house despises them, no matter how much I explain they're better all around, no dice. A bit weird that I can't get WNJN 51 out of Montclair where TVFool puts me 23 miles from the transmitter as well as WFME where I'm 22.3 miles from the transmitter.

Correction to my list: 42.1 s/b 41.1.

I guess if you can't put an outside antenna up you will have to live with what you are getting.

I have a CM 4228 antenna and a CM7777 preamp and it's not all that big but it is a vertical antenna. Antenna's are one of those things that once you put them up you don;t notice them anymore. You kinda forget about them...

The CM3010 provides very little gain for VHF-Hi. See the specs here:
http://www.solidsignal.com/channelmaster_antenna_chart.asp

i believe it. however, the DB2 is an UHF antenna, therefore, its VHF gain is likely a lot lower than that of the CM3010.

the problem with the RCA ANT751 and the CM2016 is that they are very ugly for use indoors. which of those 3 antennas should i get? i need an antenna with "ok" UHF reception plus **great** Hi-VHF reception because 7, 11 and 13 are very problematic here.

LenL wrote:

"Lots of luck with that indoor antenna. I am closer than you by 6 miles and I have tried indoor versus outdoor and without question at our distance and indoor antenna IS NOT going to get you much reception! Amplified or not! Here is what I can now receive either directly into my HDTV or through my Channel Master converter box which will lock onto weaker signals better:

2.1
4.1
5,1
7.1
13.1 (sometimes)
25.1
31.1
42.1
50.1
58.1
63.1
68.1

And of course all the subchannels.

I have trouble receiving at all 9.1 and 11.1 at all."


Well atleast you get WNYW, WABC, WNET (sometimes), WNYE, WPXN (ION), 42.1 That's either WKOB-LP or WTXF (Fox 29) out of Philadelphia, and both NJN out of Montclair and New Brunswick.

I would've setup an outside antenna by now but someone else in this house despises them, no matter how much I explain they're better all around, no dice. A bit weird that I can't get WNJN 51 out of Montclair where TVFool puts me 23 miles from the transmitter as well as WFME where I'm 22.3 miles from the transmitter.

Mileage is only part of the equation. Line of site plays a key role in determining reliable reception at these frequencies. WNJN & WFME might be on the right side of a mountain that is otherwise blocking your ability to see the signal. I live about 25 miles north of Manhattan and never had trouble with channel 50 analog when they were running full power. Now that they're digital I had to turn my antenna a few degrees west to receive WNJN and weather condx still determine whether I receive a clean signal from Montclair or not. WMBC is hit and miss now and WFME is solid. I still receive all NYC signals with no issues (They don't freeze or pixilate) but I am of the opinion that WNJN is not running full power at this time. I believe they broadcast from a tower on a mountain viewable from the Garden State west of the Rt 3 exit. According to the FCC projection I am well within their coverage area.

Well my elevation should help, aside from one of the higher hills prolly in my way in the a mile to mile and a half out....You got to go up Mase Mountain going up Route 15 off of I-80 on top of me being on one of the many hills surrounding Lake Hopatcong..which is why my elevation is at 1,100 feet. If I was in between the hills up here I probably be lucky to get even one channel....even with the elevation. I remember when I used to get NYC, Philly and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton stations when it was still in analog.

Well I'm back in NY and found i can't get channel 11 or 7 anymore and I'm 13 miles from the city. I'm using a mono price UHF/VHF indoor/outdoor antenna. It worked fine for all UHF but i could never get VHF high band very well. Looks like i got a lot of work moving the antennas around to get each TV working. 2 Emerson HDTV and the rest DTVPALs.

The only high VHF channel I can't get at all or very weak is channel 11. I don't understand because I get channels 7 and 13 good and they are all on the same antenna on the same building. I think that channel 11 is running at lower power. This is with the Terk HDTVa but the HDTVi gave me the same results.

By the way what tuners are all of you using? I have a Toshiba Regza TV 2008 32" 1080p model. If my signal drops below 45% it drops out.

I got a Samsung Syncmaster T200HD over here using an RCA ANT525 UHF/VHF/FM indoor antenna.

I live on the 10th floor and south side of a building on 57th and 11th Ave in Manhattan. I would have a line-of-sight view of the Empire State Building except for a single building obstructing the way. I can get channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25, 47, 63 and 68 with very strong signals and if I shift my Terk HDTVa around, I can get a couple more channels. However, the ONE channel that is almost impossible to get without compromises is Fox 5. I mean that I can receive it but I either lose reception of other channels or if I want to keep all my channels, I have to open a window. I found one position where I managed to get all the channels without opening a window but the next day, it wasn't working. Reception of Fox 5 is extremely sensitive in my place; one day it's fine, the next, I have to shift around to get it again. None of the other channels are so sensitive.

I live on the 10th floor and south side of a building on 57th and 11th Ave in Manhattan. I would have a line-of-sight view of the Empire State Building except for a single building obstructing the way. I can get channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25, 47, 63 and 68 with very strong signals and if I shift my Terk HDTVa around, I can get a couple more channels. However, the ONE channel that is almost impossible to get without compromises is Fox 5. I mean that I can receive it but I either lose reception of other channels or if I want to keep all my channels, I have to open a window. I found one position where I managed to get all the channels without opening a window but the next day, it wasn't working. Reception of Fox 5 is extremely sensitive in my place; one day it's fine, the next, I have to shift around to get it again. None of the other channels are so sensitive.

Reddice, you, and me live very close and have the same antenna. It seems like it's the DIRECTION that determins it. You guys can get 7.1, I can't get 7.1 no matter what I do and 11.1 is now hardly tunable. I have no problem getting 5.1 and other channels at the same time (except Hi VHF 7.1 and 11.1) lol. :o

If i leave the TV on channel 7 it does pick it up but takes around 20-30 seconds and is all blocky. Why did they have to movie back in the first place, everything was fine before. Channel 9 must have done nothing because they haven't seem to change. I can't understand why the DTVPAL in the kitchen lost so many stations since channel 2 didn't movie. So out of 7.9,11 and 13, who is pushing full power and who isn't? I had to move my antenna the first time for channel digital 13 and now looks like i need to move it again for 7,9.11 and 13. Also channel 21 is giving me problems but that was always a hit or miss depending on the weather.

I am currently splitting my signal and sending it to a 32" and 45" Sharp HDTV on different floors. I find the tuners of both TVs to give me close to the same results. I also have 3 converter boxes ( DTVPAL, Channel Master and Zenith) which I can use if needed. I have one analog TV not hooked up right now as splitting the signal 3 ways really hurts reception. Of the 3 converter boxes I found the CM the one I like the best as it has S-Video which give the best picture when hooked to my HDTV. I have used it connected to one of my Sharp TVs as it will tune in and lock in a marginal signal better. Right now I pulled it so I can see what the signal strength is right to the TV over the next month or so. I still have basic cable service that I want to cancel if I can get decent results over the next month. Right now not getting 11.1 is not a problem as we don't really watch that channel.

I'm now considering getting the DTVPAL DVR if still available for purchase and wonder how people in the NY area getting OTA are doing with this DVR. I know there is another forum devoted to this but you can't get a sense of the results in the NY area as comments come from all over the country.

Right now I'm figuring if I need to record a show I have to hook up my converter boxes and send the analog signal to my VCRS and HDTVS or split the signals again which will then cause reception problems!

On my DTVPAL channel 7 and 13 are now 73-01 and 76-01, is this right? My Emerson HDTV can't pick up these channels but still channel 11 is no were to be found.

I am currently splitting my signal and sending it to a 32" and 45" Sharp HDTV on different floors. I find the tuners of both TVs to give me close to the same results. I also have 3 converter boxes ( DTVPAL, Channel Master and Zenith) which I can use if needed. I have one analog TV not hooked up right now as splitting the signal 3 ways really hurts reception. Of the 3 converter boxes I found the CM the one I like the best as it has S-Video which give the best picture when hooked to my HDTV. I have used it connected to one of my Sharp TVs as it will tune in and lock in a marginal signal better. Right now I pulled it so I can see what the signal strength is right to the TV over the next month or so. I still have basic cable service that I want to cancel if I can get decent results over the next month. Right now not getting 11.1 is not a problem as we don't really watch that channel.

I'm now considering getting the DTVPAL DVR if still available for purchase and wonder how people in the NY area getting OTA are doing with this DVR. I know there is another forum devoted to this but you can't get a sense of the results in the NY area as comments come from all over the country.

Right now I'm figuring if I need to record a show I have to hook up my converter boxes and send the analog signal to my VCRS and HDTVS or split the signals again which will then cause reception problems!

1. As to the weak signal when running all your TV's, you don't mention if you're using an amp. If you're not, then try adding a RS 15-2505 (10dB variable gain, ? noise) before the splitter. If that seems to make the difference for you return it and order a Channel Master HDP 269 from Sound Signal (12 dB fixed gain, 3 dB noise)

2. From what I understand the tuners in converter boxes are in general better than those in TV's. However, putting a converter box up-stream of your HDTV is limiting the resolution to only 480, these will not pass a full HD signal! Boost the signal so the TV tuner(s) can get a lock. (That would tear my heart out to have to watch SD on an HDTV! :eek: )

3. I cannot attest to the performance of the tuners in the DTVPAL DVR but I'd venture a guess they're similar to the converter boxes. At least it does pass (and record) HD, and is available from Sound Signal for $245.99 + $9.95 S/H (no tax here in NY/NJ)
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=DTVPalDVR

Thanks for the follow-up comments.

I am using a CM4228 antenna and a CM7777 preamp before the splitter. Of course I could do a little better by not splitting the signal but then I can't watch TV on the second set unless I add another antenna. That remains and option.

Yes the CM Converter BOX with the S-Video into the Sharp TV loses some of the quality but you would really be surprised at the quality and I bet it would fool some people into thinking it is HD quality. That's how good it is.

On my DTVPAL channel 7 and 13 are now 73-01 and 76-01, is this right? My Emerson HDTV can't pick up these channels but still channel 11 is no were to be found.

You need to do a factory reset of your DTVPal. I had this problem too, and so have others. It's some sort of bug in the DTVPal. If you do a factory reset, 7 and 13 will be available on their normal PSIP channel numbers.

This may be obvious, but just checking. If I have a 3-way splitter, am I only getting 1/3 of the signal out to each TV?

I currently have an outdoor mid-80's RS VHF-UHF on the roof, then into a cheap RS 2505 amp. The output from the amp is sent to a 3-way splitter then on to the TV's.

Perhaps I'm lucky, but my reception is good. I get all the NY's fine, as well as 63 and 66 from North NJ, though on the farthest away TV it sometimes pixelates. TV Fool shows I'm 18 miles from ESB.

Are there any improvements to my setup that make sense? Replace the amp and splitter with a dist. amp? Or if it ain't broke don't mess with it.

Where I'm at is probably a bit too far to expect the Philly stations right? Shows as 64 miles from the Roxborough farm.

My electronics theory is a little fuzzy, but basically if you have a 3 way splitter, 1 port will be -3.5db loss and the other 2 will be -7 db loss. On the -3.5db port you will lose about 56% of the signal, while on the -7db port you will lose 80%. So that's why the amp probably helps you. Just make sure the splitter is rated up to at least 900MHZ.
As for cabling, you should have RG6 for best performance. RG59 is good until you get up into the UHF range where it starts to lose signal.

Thanks, I was actually checking the splitter and saw the -3.5 and the 2 -7's there and now they started making sense.

I didn't know the loss was so great though. How come it works so well even with such a loss?

As a test I changed the cabling and switched the -3.5 to the close TV and rescanned, no difference.

The splitterer says 1000MHZ.

Your unequal split 3-way is actually two 2-ways, thus you have a 50% power loss (3dB) on one leg (Plus insertion loss of another 0.5dB) and then into another 2-way thus dividing that 50% signal in half again, plus another 0.5dB insertion loss, coming out at 7dB total on the last two legs.

This may seem obvious, but you should send the stronger signal (3.5dB leg) to the furthest TV.

If you really want to improve the system, trash the 2505 and add a Winegard mast mounted amp. The HDP 269 (12dB gain, 3dB noise) would be comparable to the RS 15-2505 (10dB gain, ? noise) and will almost surely give you better performance. If you don't have any close stations that may overload you may get better results with the CM7777. (But if what you have now is basically working a 269 should do the job.)

The most important change you'd be making is getting the amp up close to the antenna where it will do the most good. You are then amplifying the signal before it falls lower into noise through loss in your cable run. (Which S/B RG-6 as mikepier mentioned.)

You should see a significant difference.

Thanks for the follow-up comments.

I am using a CM4228 antenna and a CM7777 preamp before the splitter. Of course I could do a little better by not splitting the signal but then I can't watch TV on the second set unless I add another antenna. That remains and option.

Yes the CM Converter BOX with the S-Video into the Sharp TV loses some of the quality but you would really be surprised at the quality and I bet it would fool some people into thinking it is HD quality. That's how good it is.

You're quite welcome LenL. However something smells rotten in Denmark. I suspect you may be overloading the amp, you've got some pretty strong signals according to TVFool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a214d354844
Is that accurate for your location? If so you should definitely be able to get 2 TV's out of one antenna. Just for giggles you may want to try taking the amp out of the equation altogether. Or try something with a bit less gain that is less susceptible to overload. Maybe the Winegard HDP 269, as was recommended for me. (I'm out on LI and have strong signals from Smithtown to deal with.)

I assume you're running all RG-6 cable? (And not several hundred feet of it.)

When you split are you having trouble with only ch-7, 11 & 13, or all UHF also? (The CM4228 has limited reception down in hi VHF as I understand.)
If without the amp you get all your UHF but find the VHF needs a bump, you could try the AP 3700: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=AP3700
17 dB gain, VHF (UHF is bypassed) 2.6 dB noise. (I assume when they say UHF is bypassed that means it is still present at the output, just not amplified. Can anyone else verify this?)

P.S. I'll buy that with a clean 480i SD signal it's hard to tell the difference on your 32", (And on that size it would be all but impossible to tell 720 from 1080) but on the 45" it ought to make a difference. :)

Thanks again for the suggestions some of which others gave me on this forum as a result of a previous post I made.

A few Sundays ago I had my daughter unhook the CM7777 preamp and went without the preamp and I received ZERO stations. Not one. So the idea that I don't need the preamp is not true. Unless there is something else going on. I too thought I should get something. But not one station? Seemed strange.

I do receive channel 7 and it is quite good with only an occasional blip. Just checked and signal strength is 61%. Channel 13.1 and 58.1 (Both hi VHF) are mid 40% right now.

I am running rg6 quadcore.

The runs are about 50' to the first floor TV and 100' to the second floor TV.

Actually I used the CM converter box with the s-Video to my 45" Sharp HD LCD TV and the picture quality was very close to HD. Very, very impressive.

As far as TVFOOL when I plug in my actual address my results are much different and worse.

I think I have addressed all of you questions and suggestions.

Thanks again for the suggestions some of which others gave me on this forum as a result of a previous post I made.

A few Sundays ago I had my daughter unhook the CM7777 preamp and went without the preamp and I received ZERO stations. Not one. So the idea that I don't need the preamp is not true. Unless there is something else going on. I too thought I should get something. But not one station? Seemed strange.

I do receive channel 7 and it is quite good with only an occasional blip. Just checked and signal strength is 61%. Channel 13.1 and 58.1 (Both hi VHF) are mid 40% right now.

I am running rg6 quadcore.

The runs are about 50' to the first floor TV and 100' to the second floor TV.

Actually I used the CM converter box with the s-Video to my 45" Sharp HD LCD TV and the picture quality was very close to HD. Very, very impressive.

As far as TVFOOL when I plug in my actual address my results are much different and worse.

I think I have addressed all of you questions and suggestions.

Nothing without the amp? :confused: When you say she "unhooked" it, did she take it completely out of the line? (Meaning: taking the cables off the amp and hooking them together, and removing the power injector)

Could you post a link to your exact TVFool results? (Your address won't show, only the zip.) Now my curiosity is peaked!

And that's pretty cool about the CM converter having such a good pic on a 45"!

By the way what tuners are all of you using? .

Equipment here is a DirecTV H-20 with built in OTA tuner (HD, HDMI, progressive output), Samsung HTB-H260F (HD, HDMI, progressive output), CM 7000 (SD, S-Video out), and a Hauppague WinTV-HVR 950 HD USB plugin tuner (comes with its own HD PVR software and auto tuning)

From my location in Burlington County, NJ, I was receiving all NYC channels pre-transition on my outdoor UHF corner reflector. Since June 12th, I still get a very good signal on CBS2, NBC4, MY9, NYC25, NJN and WMBS63. Before adding a VHF-Hi antenna, I was wondering if there was anyone from this general area (60 miles SW) and what their experiences were on VHF (7, 11, and 13). I'm thinking about adding a YA-1713 in the near future if it's worth it.

I'm near Toms River with an old VU-210 about 100' ASL with all the vhf elements removed except for channel 13's. Winegard preamp. I get all the hi-V stuff from Empire OK. Can't get WPVI though. Analog channel 2 and 4 are pretty noisy but still there.

Here is my TVFOOL link for you....

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a3e92413f8e

My daughter unhooked it at the antenna and I unhooked it from the power module inside and so it went from the antenna to the TV. I doubled checked everything but I could have messed up...don't think so though. I really expected much better results.

I might do another test with another antenna that I have (UHF ONLY) that I can mount. I just need some standoffs and a pole. I can mount this at another location so it does not interfere with the existing antenna. I also have a spare CM7777 preamp that I can use as needed.

Very interesting...
Well, according to that TVFool you should definitely be able to get something without an amp...

At my location, according to TVFool, WLIW (Garden City) is 30.6 miles out, with an NM of 21.0dB and I was able to pick it up with my homemade Grey-Hoverman on the first try - at ground level, and without any amp. Only difference is for me it's 1 edge, for you they are all 2 edge.

Funny, when I run your zip without an exact address and an antenna height of 40' I get considerably worse results still: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a186513a598
But even on this report (approx 1-1/4 miles west of you) it looks like you should at least be be able to pick up WMBC (and WABC with a VHF antenna) without an amp.

Just for giggles I looked at antennaweb.org, and your zip on a multiple story bldg shows no stations avail at all. (Although they do usually seem overly pessimistic.)

I have read elsewhere however that sometimes TVFool can appear overly optimistic, and cannot always be trusted - maybe this is just one of those cases? The fact that there is such variation in your immediate area kind of says some weird stuff is happening, for whatever reason. Multipath maybe? Hey, that other UHF antenna you have isn't by chance a 91XG is it? That married to a Winegard YA 1317 for VHF into your CM7777 would probably do a better job than your CM4228 all around. (According to TVFool 10 more feet of height would get you almost 3dB more signal too! :))

If you're going to do some more testing you might want to try and aim for analog 64 (WASA) and see if/how you can pick it up, as this shows completely different levels on the two reports.

While I'm at an elevation of around 700' above sea level I'm on the downside of a hill about 100 feet below the top of the hill which is about 300 feet from the antenna with some trees also in front of me. So I don't have any LOS to the ESB. These factors are contributing to my reception issues.

The UHF antenna for my experiment has no name. I will have to take a picture and post it so you can see that and also my present antenna setup.

Also I currently receive analog 64 with lots of snow. Well enough though to see the items being sold.

Yea that hill explains your difficulties, you're depending on 100% refraction.
All things considered, you're actually not doing too bad. (If only you were on the other side of that hill...)

Post a pic of the UHF antenna, maybe we can pin-point what it is and find its performance specs.

And you're getting analog 64 with lots of snow? I'm surprised you're getting it at all! It's 119 degrees off axis from the ESB aim!!! Must be a reflection off the hill somehow - it looks like that direction would be in quite a null for a 4228, if I remember the beam pattern.

I live on the 10th floor and south side of a building on 57th and 11th Ave in Manhattan. I would have a line-of-sight view of the Empire State Building except for a single building obstructing the way. I can get channels 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25, 47, 63 and 68 with very strong signals and if I shift my Terk HDTVa around, I can get a couple more channels. However, the ONE channel that is almost impossible to get without compromises is Fox 5. I mean that I can receive it but I either lose reception of other channels or if I want to keep all my channels, I have to open a window. I found one position where I managed to get all the channels without opening a window but the next day, it wasn't working. Reception of Fox 5 is extremely sensitive in my place; one day it's fine, the next, I have to shift around to get it again. None of the other channels are so sensitive.
Reddice, you, and me live very close and have the same antenna. It seems like it's the DIRECTION that determins it. You guys can get 7.1, I can't get 7.1 no matter what I do and 11.1 is now hardly tunable. I have no problem getting 5.1 and other channels at the same time (except Hi VHF 7.1 and 11.1) lol. :o

Man, reading both of your issues makes me feel very lucky (Astoria, Queens, here).

Ch.25-1 is big surprise,good programming, sometime equal to wnet13 and 25-2 that's
suplemental visual Weather report.
wABC7-3 on left side there is hour-video-temperature, many times the video gives
misinformation, showing rain(or snow) wherein outside is none, tune in 25-2 you verify
accuracy, doublecheck of 7-3, some camera show windshield wipers on cars on Qboro bridge, other used to show I think 42nd st. Lexington crossing, you can see if people
carry umbrellas
And now showing Times Sq. from 47st, it feels like walking there myself.

I have some pictures for you of my existing antenna and the UHF which I have inside and have been testing inside.

When I took the pictures I realized that when I was at the top of the hill that my antenna is actually high enough that it almost but not quite is eye level with the top of the hill. So while I do have issues with trees my situation with the hill is not so bad.


I think I uploaded pictures for you....

I have some pictures for you of my existing antenna and the UHF which I have inside and have been testing inside.

When I took the pictures I realized that when I was at the top of the hill that my antenna is actually high enough that it almost but not quite is eye level with the top of the hill. So while I do have issues with trees my situation with the hill is not so bad.


I think I uploaded pictures for you....

One looks like PACMAN

I'm here!

So, I've arrived in town (Fair Lawn) for a day or two before heading off to PA. Last time I was here, there was still regular analog broadcasting, so here's the breakdown of what I'm seeing.

Coming in great: WCBS, WNBC, WNYW, WWOR, WNYE, WPXN, WXTV, WNJN, WMBC, WFUT
Coming in with some effort: WABC, WNET, WNYN-LD, WFME
Unusable: WPIX, WNJU

WNYN and WFME require specific antenna placement that often loses one or more other stations. WABC and WNET require the rabbit ears and do not get above 75% (60% needed to decode). WPIX barely broke 60% in a specific position that I have since been unable to duplicate.

Oddly, I cannot lock WNJU at all, nothing above 30%. I don't recall them being so difficult in the past, though I could be wrong. I'm wondering if the DTS setup is creating artificial multipath and screwing me up.

I cannot see any hint of signal from WPXO-LD 34, and I was hoping for decent reception from them. I didn't expect to see WBQM-LD 3 or WNYZ-LD 6, but I looked for them as well.

Coming through Paterson, I locked WLNY-DT 47 (55-1) on my Zenith for a few seconds. I was shocked that it covered all that ground, but I cannot find any signal now. Looking at the TV Fool maps, it looks like there's a few tiny dots where WLNY has signal in the Paterson area, and the rest of NJ (other than Alpine) is pretty much cut off.

All of these were using the Silver Sensor for UHF, generic rabbit ears for VHF, and without the aid of my CM7777 amp. I may try the amp tomorrow.

- Trip

So many people having problems with WNJU and WFME. I can get peak those stations at 96% which peeves me off for that 480i old geezer moldy old organ music bible babble station is freaking 15 miles away and I get it so strong. Meanwhile stations like WPIX which is non existent, WNBC which is weak only 4 miles away I struggle to get At least WNJU is in 1080i and the HD content looks great but I don't speak or understand Spanish.

Is anyone experiencing the same thing as me this week? Every night around 12:45am WCBS 2.1 and all of the WNBC stations 4.1, 2 & 4 are going dead. They come back by the morning but I can't watch what I want to watch at this time.

It was manageable before the switchover because when it happened, I'd just tune to the analog ch. 2 or 4 and just deal with it. But now, no analog…no TV. Sheesh, you think they'd have it together by now. They had a 5 month delay on Feb 19 to iron out the kinks.

I read somewhere that exactly at midnight they're doing work on the ESB antenna and they all go to backup transmitters at lower power or shutting down transmitters altogether until around 4-5 AM. I notice it when I listen to WCBS-FM, right at midnight, I can only hear sound out of one speaker and it gets statically like they flipped a switch. Prolly related to the DTV transition but it ends up effecting even radio.

[...] WNBC which is weak only 4 miles away I struggle to get

i'm sure this can be fixed by moving the antenna to a different spot. i'm saying this because NBC is on UHF and nobody seems to have a problem with its signal. besides, you are only 4 miles away from the transmitter.

this week i made an interesting discovery. i built a simple 12-AWG "Folded Dipole" antenna of 74cm (optimal for RF-9). if i hang it on the cabinet door in the kitchen, 8" off the floor and in an angle of 45-deg with the wall in front of it, i can get WNET-13 (hi-VHF) with a signal of 70%!!! the best that i had gotten before was a mere 40%, when i used the UFO at different spot.

this shows that you really need to play around with the antenna(s) that you have till you find the sweet spot in your apartment. remember, i had to place my home-made FD approx 8" off the floor to get Ch-13.... at a height of 10" i got nothing! you really need to try all heights, all angles, all distances from the walls. the number of possibilities is almost endless, i know, but somewhere in your home there's a sweet spot and an even "sweeter spot". took me 5 antennas (home-made Loop, home-made Folded Dipole, TV55, HDTVa and UFO) plus 3 weeks to find mine! too bad such spot is right in the middle of the kitchen! :(

Is anyone experiencing the same thing as me this week? Every night around 12:45am WCBS 2.1 and all of the WNBC stations 4.1, 2 & 4 are going dead. They come back by the morning but I can't watch what I want to watch at this time.

the 3 channels were fine when i checked them at 1am.

"Oddly, I cannot lock WNJU at all, nothing above 30%. I don't recall them being so difficult in the past, though I could be wrong. I'm wondering if the DTS setup is creating artificial multipath and screwing me up."

Trip, in my case, the station was not difficult to receive at all. Ever since the DTS additional facility on 4TS was fired up, the station is absent. At the same time, others have reported that for the first time they're receiving 36. Had really hoped that DTS would not have these negatives - it could be the answer to the Hi-V problem so many of us are enduring.

"Oddly, I cannot lock WNJU at all, nothing above 30%. I don't recall them being so difficult in the past, though I could be wrong. I'm wondering if the DTS setup is creating artificial multipath and screwing me up."



You hit the nail exactly on it's head. DTS and the associated uncorrectible multipath is shaping up as the next example of poor engineering related to DTV.

You hit the nail exactly on it's head. DTS and the associated uncorrectible multipath is shaping up as the next example of poor engineering related to DTV.

Thank you for the credit, but it belongs to Trip!

It does. And I hope he reports further on DTS--the Emperor's new cloth

I think the problem with DTS and WNJU-DT is that it's being done with too much power. WTVE-DT in Reading PA has a DTS with 8 transmitters that works just fine. The stations have very limited overlap, and most of them have power levels of less than 5 kW ERP. I locked WTVE-DTS5 on the way here (while moving!), though I think WTVE-DTS2 is off the air as I saw zero signal for it even though I was looking at the tower and being shadowed by mountains on all other sides.

DTS can work as long as it's done properly, and I'm not convinced that WNJU's DTS is being done properly.

- Trip

DTS can work as long as it's done properly, and I'm not convinced that WNJU's DTS is being done properly.

- Trip

DTS can work only in the shadowed area of the main Tx or where there's no overlap of on-channel decodable signals.

DTS can work only in the shadowed area of the main Tx or where there's no overlap of on-channel decodable signals.

Bingo.

Today, I'm hoping to stop in Alpine and get the Long Island stations. I do not have any data for WLIW-DT and I'd be curious to see if WLNY-DT has any Mobile DTV feeds yet.

Oh, and I noted that WPXN-DT already appears to have Mobile DTV running. I have yet to post the new TSReader captures on my site, but I'm seeing a feed at 0x1fe9 (I think) that has a usage that is a multiple of 0.917 Mbps, thus indicating Mobile DTV. I wish I could decode it so I knew what was on it...

- Trip

Coming in great: WCBS, WNBC, WNYW, WWOR, WNYE, WPXN, WXTV, WNJN, WMBC, WFUT
Coming in with some effort: WABC, WNET, WNYN-LD, WFME
Unusable: WPIX, WNJU


Not sure how much you can trust last night's reception - there was a lot of DX going on. I got a brief lock on KYW Philadelphia (RF 26, 3.1) and a watchable signal from the NJN out of Trenton (RF 43, 52.1) but most significantly a good hour straight of solid watchable WLVT PBS 39 out of Lehigh Valley, PA. And this is in Brooklyn with a set of rabbit ears.
Note I've never had a peep of the 39 low power from Long Island City.

I'll be looking at it again today. Right now I'm sitting in the hair salon that we came here for (the barber back home did not do a good job cutting my sister's hair) and on the way back we'll be stopping at Alpine. I'll try reception from my grandparents' house again later in the afternoon when I get back.

- Trip

Looks like New HD VHF stations are comming to the NYC market (VHF CH 3 , Times Square Antenna), & The Philadelphia market, VHF CH 2.

From Northeast Radio Watch:

" In the 1980's, an amendment to the Communications Act of 1933 established a way for states with no commercial VHF stations - a list that included only New Jersey and Delaware - to gain such operations: it provided that any licensee that notified the FCC that it was willing to accept reallocation to a VHF-less state would immediately be granted a license for the moved operation, bypassing just about every other provision of the Act except for spacing requirements.

The provision was very narrowly targeted, aimed entirely at moving New York's WOR-TV (Channel 9) to Secaucus, N.J., a move owner RKO accepted in order to be allowed to sell the station instead of losing the license....
But long after channel 9 made the move - and long after it was clear that the "move" didn't prevent channel 9, now WWOR, from continuing to be a "New York" station, transmitting from Manhattan, and serving the entire metro area - the rule stayed on the books, apparently never to be used again.
With the DTV transition looming, though, the lawyers at Fletcher, Heald and Hildreth spotted an opportunity: since WWOR's digital signal is now on channel 38, New Jersey would end up once again bereft of VHF stations. With the channel 2 stations in New York City and Baltimore vacating that spot, and channel 3 in Philadelphia and Hartford going empty as well, there was suddenly spectrum available for VHF allotments in both New Jersey and Delaware!...and a law on the books that appeared to give that spectrum to any station willing to make the move, just for the asking."

"That's the long way around to explaining why NEW JERSEY's Press Communications has quietly bought two tiny TV stations out west - NBC affiliate KJWY (Channel 2) in Jackson, Wyoming and independent KVNV (Channel 3) in Ely, Nevada - and why it's apparently poised to move those stations right into the heart of the Philadelphia and New York TV markets, respectively.
The 1980's FCC rules, still valid, would seem to require the FCC to grant these NJ company Purchased stations VHF stations immediate license/transfer to NJ & Delware ( Xmitiing from Manhattan & Phila) .... & they are in the process of filing right now...

"And so Press notified the FCC last Monday that it was "willing to accept" reallocations that would move KJWY's channel 2 from Jackson to Wilmington, Delaware, and KVNV's channel 3 from Ely to Middletown Township, New Jersey - with strongly-worded language making it clear that it believes the Commisson is compelled by the language of Section 331(a) of the Communications Act to immediately grant those moves.

It should come as no surprise, of course, that the new "Delaware" and "New Jersey" stations would have their sights set on the bigger markets next door: Channel 2 would transmit with 10 kW/845' from the Roxborough tower farm in Philadelphia, while Channel 3 would have 10 kW/860' from the Four Times Square tower in Manhattan, making both signals full-market (within the limitations of low-band VHF) in their respective markets.

What's in it for the people of Delaware and New Jersey? Probably not all that much: in a Delaware newspaper interview, Press CEO Bob McAllan (the managing member of "PMCM, LLC," the licensee of KJWY and KVNV) wouldn't even go so far as to commit to local studios in either state, promising only that the stations' programming, once moved, "might be something you haven't seen before." Given the FCC's current lax requirements for local news - and the lack of a requirement for a main studio in the city of license, a rule that at least obliged WWOR to move its studio from Times Square to Secaucus back in the day - it appears, to us at least, that there's little to stop the new channel 3 and channel 2 from setting up shop right in Manhattan and Philadelphia, respectively, yielding new stations in those cities at an amazing bargain price: PMCM paid just $1.2 million for those two licenses in Nevada and Wyoming, and surely far less than that for the legal work to get the stations moved... "

Looks like there may soon be an HD VHF ch - 3 from the Times Square antenna:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158621

Looks like there may soon be an HD VHF ch - 3 from the Times Square antenna:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158621

how will they overcome the inherent problems of ATSC on Lo-VHF?

how will they overcome the inherent problems of ATSC on Lo-VHF?

They won't. I'm sure they just want cable carriage.

- Trip