New York, NY - OTA [Text View] - Page 39

NYC10033

06-28-09, 01:28 AM

TV10/55 (WLNY): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLNY

are you that guy that lives on the top of the island? if so, how's your reception now after the shut off? which channels you do NOT get?

I live near the highest natural point in Manhattan - near 187th St.

I receive all channels fairly well - NJN 50 is the strongest, followed by WFME.

Channel 31 is the least reliable.

Channels 2 and 7 are somewhat sensitive - necessitating my repositioning/rotating the indoor UHF antenna. Moving the antenna for one channel sometimes causes poorer reception for other channels.

I added a VHF antenna with collapsible elements (all pushed in) and a 30 year old combiner so I have a UHF and VHF antenna feeding my converter box.

My BIGGEST disappointment is that the programming is pretty bad. Infomercials on channels for Major networks is pathetic. I can understand Infomercials on a non-network local channel, but Channel 2?!!!

And again, why don't Spanish language channels broadcast the English language audio from movies on SAP? Why don't Spanish language stations show the respect for non-Spanish speakers they demand from English language stations for Spanish speakers?

NYC10033

06-28-09, 01:32 AM

Someone posted some gov docs that said Blocking Antenna outside is illegal for Apartments. YOu should be allowed. That getting free cable perks is illgal for the Apt owners. You should look into that

I am going to contact the office of my NYC Councilman and ask if there is any law that assists people in receiving OTA TV with outdoor antennas.

nordloewelabs

06-28-09, 01:38 AM

I receive all channels fairly well - NJN 50 is the strongest, followed by WFME.

do you receive WSAH RF-42 (43.1)? they will be aring RetroTV programming.
http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/04/daily.3/

nordloewelabs

06-28-09, 01:43 AM

I am going to contact the office of my NYC Councilman and ask if there is any law that assists people in receiving OTA TV with outdoor antennas.

it's ok to put an antenna on the window if the window faces the street or some other "non-communal" area. the courtyard **is** a communal place.

NYC10033

06-28-09, 02:47 AM

do you receive WSAH RF-42 (43.1)? they will be aring RetroTV programming.
http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/04/daily.3/

No.

ProjectSHO89

06-28-09, 08:47 AM

I am going to contact the office of my NYC Councilman and ask if there is any law that assists people in receiving OTA TV with outdoor antennas.

Before wasting his time, go read the OTARD rules at http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html to see if you have a foot to stand on.

nordloewelabs

06-28-09, 11:42 AM

do you receive WSAH RF-42 (43.1)? they will be aring RetroTV programming.
http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/04/daily.3/

No.

could you tell us your www.TVFool.com (http://www.TVFool.com) data (NM(db), Pwr(dB), Path, Miles, Angle) for this particular channel? if things remain like they are now, i wont be able to watch RetroTV once it goes on air. :(

are there any plans to boost WSAH's signal? maybe another transmitter on 4TS?

reddice

06-28-09, 04:24 PM

i'm sure this can be fixed by moving the antenna to a different spot. i'm saying this because NBC is on UHF and nobody seems to have a problem with its signal. besides, you are only 4 miles away from the transmitter.
(

Your right I can move the antenna. If I face it straight east and click on the UHF portion of the Terk HDTVa sideways I can get channel 4 in the 70's. I can even get channel 31 but then it makes all the other UHF channels weaker except channel 5 of course. So I have to compromise.

nordloewelabs

06-28-09, 05:06 PM

I can even get channel 31 but then it makes all the other UHF channels weaker except channel 5 of course. So I have to compromise.

that's an unfortunate feature of indoor antennas everywhere.... people who can get all channels without moving their antennas usually have 3-5 channels. the higher the number of channels, the more likely the person will need to move the antenna around.

i'll be getting a CM2016 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016&xzoom=Large#xview) at some point to install in my livingroom....and i'm (delusionally) hoping i can get WSAH. is anyone here getting it?

n2ubp

06-28-09, 08:49 PM

slprp1

06-28-09, 09:17 PM

Constable Odo

06-28-09, 10:03 PM

I lost a very important channel (for me). Unfortunately, I can't afford cable or satellite and the CM CECB is my only option.
The channels are limited to begin with and I was receiving WLIW (channel 21), which is a local PBS affiliate. I had been receiving it well all along and now have lost it completely as of 6/12! Nothing has changed with my setup. Yes......I've tried re-scanning (10 times already).

I even tried another CM box (have a spare).

I e-mailed the channel twice and haven't received an answer (how rude of them!).

I thought that the signals were supposed to increase in strength as of the transition. It's over two weeks now and I'm finding that certain channels have actually reduced their signal strength. I'm seeing some pixelization and freezing issues (with various channels) that simply didn't exist before!......What's up with this?......The signal strength/quality is now worse than ever before on certain channels and my beloved WLIW is completely gone!
Was this promise of better signal just lip service?
Has anyone (especially in the NYC area) seen an improvement?

This is (potentially) a major issue......has it been addressed to the FCC, etc.?

BTW- I'm located in Southeast Queens

Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated!......Thank you!
Actually you're losing three good stations: 21.1 (PBS), 21.2 (Create), 21.3 (PBS World)
They have some excellent shows on those three channels since I've been checking them post-transition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLIW

If you live in S.E. Queens (which is where I am) and you don't have an outdoor roof antenna facing west and don't have an amplifier, you are not going to get that station and subchannels. I don't have my main antenna facing west towards Garden City, but I can still get the channels at most times with a 62% signal (my main antenna faces about 60 or so degrees away). I have a spare fringe-type UHF antenna on my roof facing west towards Garden City, but I don't have it hooked up at present (I just need to attach a signal joiner). I have used it in the past many years ago for Channel 21 and it pulls a strong signal which is expected because it's pointing in the right direction.

You don't say whether you're using an indoor antenna or not but I'd think your chances of getting a good lock are slim with an indoor antenna. I doubt if the transmitter is putting out a weak signal since I'm still getting 61% on my main antenna which isn't facing Garden City. I'm sure I'll pull 90%+ signal when I hook up my spare UHF.

I'm probably one of the few people in Queens that get's better reception on all channels after the transition. Just lucky, I guess, since I'm able to use a VHF/UHF rooftop antenna with a tallish mast. And that DTV Pal+ CECB definitely has a superior tuner.

I'd say the reason you got Channel 21 before and now you don't because now with a digital signal, once you fall below a certain signal strength you get nothing. So you must have had a marginal analog signal before, that's all.

I'd documented my stations and signal strength somewhere on this page of the forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=275729&page=304

I personally don't think most stations care whether you get good signals are not. They probably want you to get cable or DishTV or something you have to pay for whether you watch it or not. Good luck with writing the station or your congressman (since it's not election time). I really had thought that discount converter boxes were going to help people, but so far it doesn't seem to have worked out that way at all for the few people I know that don't have cable/DishTV or outdoor antennas. Looks like many people are going to spend less time watching TV this year.

Constable Odo

06-28-09, 11:58 PM

I've been doing some digging on why so many people claim VHF reception sucks all over the USA. Some of the suggested reasons are:

The viewer only has a UHF antenna.
Some converter front ends are overloaded by local FM stations and do not have a FM trap option.
Some converter designs are optimized for UHF and are extremely poor at receiving VHF.
VHF signal propagation is significantly different from UHF and requires different optimizing tweaks.
The FCC may have reduced ERP to compensate for auctioning off so much bandwidth, cramming more stations in less channel space and less miles between transmitter sites.

Again, I can not verify any of these are true but it makes interesting reading.
I think most people thought that all converter boxes were created equal as far as getting digital signals. Not everyone was on forums checking out tuner sensitivity. That's a huge problem when getting a marginal digital signal. I was telling some people in Queens that they most likely didn't need an overly sensitive tuner since the ESB was so close. Of course I bought the most sensitive tuner I could buy (the Pal+). My cousin bought a Zinwell, but the solid-state tuner version had already been sold out and nobody had them. He also got a Pal+ but he doesn't have an outdoor antenna and is suffering from the 7, 11, 13 curse. I'm trying to convince him to get a roof antenna but he's just stubborn since he'd have to pay someone to mount it for him.

Even though I was spending lots of time on the forums, I must have overlooked until transition time that VHF was still going to be used. It didn't seem that even most of the government knew that, since most sites were pushing strictly UHF gear for post-transition. I was fortunate it was wintertime before the transition or I might have pulled down my VHF/UHF antenna to get one of those fancy-looking and powerful Antennas Direct ClearStream 4 rigs and shot myself in the foot.

As far as that FM trap stuff is concerned, you can still buy amplifiers with FM traps, can't you. My antenna is also rated for FM reception, but I don't have any overloading problem I'm aware of. Everything just worked out fine for me and I only needed my Pal+ for digital conversion and I'd say it is an excellent box for sensitivity.

In theory, most stations should be required to transmit a more powerful signal since once the effective signal threshold is lost, viewers get nothing. A marginal signal just doesn't cut it anymore. So people with digital tuners that used to get a marginal analog signal now get nothing. I'd say they are effectively screwed.

If you don't have much money to begin with, how you are gonna afford to start testing all sorts of combinations of gear to get all the channel signals. And what average viewer understands traps, filters, amps, front end overloading and multipath tech speak. There's no set formula for that crap since each viewer has a different location. To me it seems daunting and nearly impossible without some pro using signal reading instrumentation. Best of luck to all of you.

dagger666

06-29-09, 08:12 AM

What is with channel 11, it is the hardest to pick up along with 7. In my room the mono price antenna needs to be on a chair to pick up 7 and 11 but when i put it back on the wall neither come in. In the kitchen the dtvpal gets 7 and 13 but nothing on 11. Why could they just have left things alone. On a funny note my sisters rabbit ears are now getting everything upstairs. Even channel 5 which she could not get before. Seams the only VHF channel that is left in HSN, i'm on Long Island 14 miles form NYC.

dagger666

06-29-09, 08:16 AM

You need to do a factory reset of your DTVPal. I had this problem too, and so have others. It's some sort of bug in the DTVPal. If you do a factory reset, 7 and 13 will be available on their normal PSIP channel numbers.

thanks, did that today and now everything is fine just still can't get channel 11, WHY?

SnellKrell

06-29-09, 08:18 AM

dvdchance

06-29-09, 08:39 AM

Your unequal split 3-way is actually two 2-ways, thus you have a 50% power loss (3dB) on one leg (Plus insertion loss of another 0.5dB) and then into another 2-way thus dividing that 50% signal in half again, plus another 0.5dB insertion loss, coming out at 7dB total on the last two legs.

This may seem obvious, but you should send the stronger signal (3.5dB leg) to the furthest TV.

If you really want to improve the system, trash the 2505 and add a Winegard mast mounted amp. The HDP 269 (12dB gain, 3dB noise) would be comparable to the RS 15-2505 (10dB gain, ? noise) and will almost surely give you better performance. If you don't have any close stations that may overload you may get better results with the CM7777. (But if what you have now is basically working a 269 should do the job.)

The most important change you'd be making is getting the amp up close to the antenna where it will do the most good. You are then amplifying the signal before it falls lower into noise through loss in your cable run. (Which S/B RG-6 as mikepier mentioned.)

You should see a significant difference.

Thanks for the great suggestions. Another quick question I have. The cable running from the outside antenna to the 2505 amp is currently that flat 300ohm cable, which I then connect to one of those converters to get the 75ohm into the amp. Would I be better off doing the conversion at the antenna and running 75ohm cable into the house, or will it not really matter much.

I should replace the cable either way since the cable itself is probably 20 or so years old, but which would be the better way to go?

reddice

06-29-09, 12:01 PM

As Trip in VA has reported, WABC, Channel 7 today has applied with the FCC for an increase in power from 11.69kW to 27kW ERP.

Don't know how long it takes to get approval and to make this happen.

Standby - help is on the way, at least in receiving 7.

Good but I don't have much problems getting channel 7. I can get it in the high 50's to high 60's. Sometimes even the 70's. It is good that they might increase power but I wish channel 11 would apply to increase power because on a good day I can only get it in the mid 40's and it breaks up a lot. Most of the time I can only get it in the 20's with no picture.

kousikb

06-29-09, 12:03 PM

As Trip in VA has reported, WABC, Channel 7 today has applied with the FCC for an increase in power from 11.69kW to 27kW ERP.

Don't know how long it takes to get approval and to make this happen.

Standby - help is on the way, at least in receiving 7.

Well ABC indeed did something (may be changed the transmission directional pattern or something). I am able to get 7.. although with some small pixellations occasionally.. but it improves during primetime and as the night progresses.. so ERP increase will surely benefit me. I am not getiing 11 at all. Sometimes I am able to get 13 although with some amount of pixellation. I would really love to get 13, but I guess I have to satisfy myself with NJN PBS.
Antenna being used: CM3010 VHF/UHF antenna with CM3038 preamp (with FM trap enabled).

Does anybody has success stories on RCA ANT751? I wish I would have gotten this antenna instead with some small gain preamp. Anyway.. I can't invest any more money on antenna.

SnellKrell

06-29-09, 12:05 PM

WABC, WPIX and WNET all use the same non-directional, Hi-VHF Combiner antenna on the ESB.

So, no changes with the station's transmission pattern.

nordloewelabs

06-29-09, 12:21 PM

Well ABC indeed did something (may be changed the transmission directional pattern or something).

i have a hard time o receive it. the signal oscillates too much: 10-40% i was able to get CW for the first time last week with my Folded Dipole hanging on the window. signal was weak, though. Ch-13 is the "strongest" of all Hi-VHF channels in my place. but its sweet spot is in the middle of the kitchen.

I guess I have to satisfy myself with NJN PBS. i wish i could get WLIW-21. it seems to have better sub-channels than WNET-13.

Does anybody has success stories on RCA ANT751? I wish I would have gotten this antenna instead with some small gain preamp. Anyway.. I can't invest any more money on antenna.

today i'll order the CM2016 for use indoors. i'm not sure if i'll get an amp, though. i'll report my findings here once i set it up.

reddice

06-29-09, 12:31 PM

WABC, WPIX and WNET all use the same non-directional, Hi-VHF Combiner antenna on the ESB.

So, no changes with the station's transmission pattern.

That is what I don't understand. If they are all on the same antenna at the same position then how come the way I have my dipole antennas I can get WABC and WNET good but I can't get WPIX. :confused:

SnellKrell

06-29-09, 12:41 PM

Once again, as has been mentioned numerous times on the Forum -

Although the signal emanate from the same physical antenna -

Different frequencies and different power!

nordloewelabs

06-29-09, 12:51 PM

That is what I don't understand. If they are all on the same antenna at the same position then how come the way I have my dipole antennas I can get WABC and WNET good but I can't get WPIX. :confused:

as said before, different frequencies, broadcast at different powers, yield different results. since you ask this question so often, i'll try to make an analogy to help you understand.

assume you are near a vehicle whose stereo is blasting music. close to the car, you can hear all elements of the song (bass, drums, hit-hats, vocals, guitars, etc.) clearly. however, if you gradually move away from the vehicle, you notice that your ears can no longer hear (receive) all the elements of the song. that is, the farther you go, the less you can hear the higher frequencies. it gets to a point at which you can only hear the "bass" (bum-bum-bum) and nothing else! no vocals, no hit-hat, no nothing. the bass is all you hear!

how is that possible if all sounds that comprise the song are being played from the same stereo, in the same vehicle?

in sum, it doesnt matter that the 3 stations are being broadcast from the same spot. their frequencies are different. different frequencies propagate in different ways.

jpru34

06-29-09, 01:17 PM

as said before, different frequencies, broadcast at different powers, yield different results. since you ask this question so often, i'll try to make an analogy to help you understand.

assume you are near a vehicle whose stereo is blasting music. close to the car, you can hear all elements of the song (bass, drums, hit-hats, vocals, guitars, etc.) clearly. however, if you gradually move away from the vehicle, you notice that your ears can no longer hear (receive) all the elements of the song. that is, the farther you go, the less you can hear the higher frequencies. it gets to a point at which you can only hear the "bass" (bum-bum-bum) and nothing else! no vocals, no hit-hat, no nothing. the bass is all you hear!

how is that possible if all sounds that comprise the song are being played from the same stereo, in the same vehicle?

in sum, it doesnt matter that the 3 stations are being broadcast from the same spot. their frequencies are different. different frequencies propagate in different ways.
great analogy. As I am not a "science" or "tech" guy, it really helped me understand why different channels behave differently even though they are broadcast from the same antenna.

nordloewelabs

06-29-09, 01:42 PM

Antenna being used: CM3010 VHF/UHF antenna with CM3038 preamp (with FM trap enabled).

just ordered the CM2016 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016&xzoom=Large#xview) and the HDP-269 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANWHDP269) amp. this amp was recommended by holl_ands as a way to avoid overload of my CM-7000 converter. i have a 37" Olevia LCD too so i'll split in 2 the signal received by the antenna.

Constable Odo

06-29-09, 07:04 PM

I reversed a common splitter (Archer equal loss) to join my northwest facing VHF/UHF antenna to my east-facing UHF to get WLIW Garden City Channel 21 at near full strength. I was able to pull a 83% to 85% signal on channels 21.1, 21.2 and 21.3 without any significant losses on my other channels. Using the straight feed gave me a 90% to 92% signal on Channel 21. I may just decide to use a coaxial switcher instead. I have a couple of those around and just switch when I watch those WLIW channels. All the channels I receive are well above any signal dropouts and stay rock solid.

This is my OTA rooftop setup for the digital age. This old antenna gear is at least fifteen years old and I hadn't used it since I starting using TimeWarner Cable back in 2001 except to check it was in working order from time to time in case of an emergency. It worked way back then and it still does the job even better now than when I was using analog. That broken VHF element is still on the roof and I'm tempted to put it back on with a metal screw and some epoxy if time permits. The OTA antenna gear:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3673659812/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3672850347/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3672850271/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3673659550/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8219571@N08/3672850039/sizes/o/

Not much magic involved and relatively very little cost spread out over fifteen years. My antenna mod was adding eight elements (about a couple of feet) to the UHF section which helped boost the signal a bit for old analog Channel 63 in Newton, N.J.. I had spray-coated clear polyurethane on the entire antenna when brand new and it preserved it to this day without any oxidation. I'd also added rubberized epoxy to the element joints, but some starling must have landed on one of my longest VHF elements and snapped it off.

Almost everyone on my block has those mini-satellite dishes so I'm a little out of fashion with the times with multiple VHF/UHF roof antennas. I don't care. I get excellent OTA reception on the cheap and really could drop my cable tv feed since I don't watch much TV now. I still need my broadband internet connection, though.

FrankH3rd

06-29-09, 08:42 PM

This article by Pete Putman was identified in post 2605 in the Philadelphia thread, and deals mostly with the problems related to reception of channel 6 WPVI since the June 12 transition, but also contains interesting information about reception of channel 7 WABC in New York City. Helps one understand why amplifiers don't always work.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/TechTalk.html

Frank
WA2ISK

seamus21514

06-30-09, 12:50 AM

http://www.commlawblog.com/tags/pmcm-tv-llc/

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/294773-PMCM_Wants_To_Move_Stations.php

http://www.fhhlaw.com/memo_clients/2009/PMCM%20Uses%20Section%20331%20for%20New%20VHFs%20in%20NJ&DEL.pdf

This is wild! Do you think this will actually happen?

MeatChicken

06-30-09, 10:57 AM

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 11:32 AM

It's just about 12:30 p.m. and about a minute or so ago, 7 disappeared.

Tried the station on 2 tuners and now see that DirecTV has lost its feed.

Let's hope the engineers at 7 are working some magic or us all!

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 11:34 AM

7 is back with no discernable change in SNR%.

reddice

06-30-09, 11:37 AM

Channels 7 and 13 are weaker for me today. Channel 13 being the weakest.

reddice

06-30-09, 01:14 PM

I wonder why whenever OTA channel 7 goes out it affects the DirecTV feed?

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 01:19 PM

Because DirecTV uses an O-T-A feed to receive the station, not a fiber connection.

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 02:48 PM

DTVintermods

06-30-09, 03:58 PM

It's 3:48 p.m. on Tuesday, 6/30 -

This concerns Channel 36 - WNJU.

A while ago (last month or so) I totally lost 36 while others claimed that their reception improved.

Speculation is that the fill-in facility on 4TS caused my loss and others' gain of reception.

I am now getting 36 the way I used to.

Wondering if others are noticing a difference.

I wonder too. Here's my nickel's worth:
ch 36 transmits from NJ (W. Orange) omnidirectional. Its secondary on-channel transmitter (DTS) transmits directional pattern toward East from (not sure) Blumberg or 4TS.
Where in the azimuth plane these two pattern overlap is where some people, mostly east of Manhattan, will get an improvement and many more inside Manhattan, mostly east of the the building on which the second transmitter is, would have a degraded SNR.

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 04:05 PM

The 2nd transmitter is on the Conde Nast Building - 4TS.

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 05:36 PM

Just looked for 36 again, and it's among the missing.

Really believe it's the transmission from 4TS that's killing it for me!

DTVintermods

06-30-09, 06:17 PM

Just looked for 36 again, and it's among the missing.

Really believe it's the transmission from 4TS that's killing it for me!

Why not let Telemundo's Engineering c/o NBC Engineering know?

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 06:21 PM

They do, I had heard they were going to do tests by turning 4TS off - this must be it!

DTVintermods

06-30-09, 06:37 PM

They do, I had heard they were going to do tests by turning 4TS off - this must be it!

This may be a testimonial to Telemundo's dumb engineering and a caution to anyone who cannot do analysis and thus believes in the advertising (curtesy of the FCC) that DTS is DTV broadcasting's panacea to the vagaries of 8-VSB reception.

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 06:59 PM

Whoa, those are very harsh words.

Before the condemnation, why don't you take the time to read the Richland Towers report on its experimental work with Telemundo.

It's available at www.richlandtowers.com on the site's home page.

The results of the experimental work were so positive that it led to the implementation of the 4TS transmission site.

DTVintermods

06-30-09, 07:02 PM

Trip in VA

06-30-09, 08:04 PM

This DTS has way too much power to be successful IMO.

- Trip

S1DIMMER

06-30-09, 08:50 PM

Before the DTV change I was able to get all my locals 2, 4, 5, and 7 with a single silver sensor antenna that I did not have to move. I'm using a media center PC with 2 Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 tuners. After the digital transition which I thought would only improve reception, I lost 2 and 7. Today I got an RCA ANT1500, which got 2 back but 7 is still out. No matter which way I aim the antenna I still can't get 7. Anyone have any ideas on how to get 7 to come in. I did see the earlier posts about 7 boosting their signal so I'm hoping that may help. Hopefully they'll get it done before the new TV season. My 11 and 13 are out too but I mainly only watch 2, 4, 5, and 7. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

SnellKrell

06-30-09, 08:56 PM

I also have the Silver Sensor and everything was fine before the transition.

As of 6/12, I had trouble with 7, 11, 13 and 31 (no reception at all for 31). My problems with 36 are mentioned above.

My current solution, which is working fairly well for the Hi-V stations, is the addition of Terk rabbit ears being fed with the Silver Sensor into a combiner, not a splitter in reverse.

reddice

06-30-09, 09:16 PM

I don't know why they can't just move some of the troubled stations to 4TS. I know you are saying that it is not as high but it is a new antenna so it will work better. As you know I get 36 very strong. It is the strongest. If it is on 4TS then I am right. Also 24 is on 4TS and I get it good.

reddice

06-30-09, 09:20 PM

Why so many problems getting channel 2. When channel 2 was on RF 56 I had a struggle of a time to get a picture. Most of the time it was a black screen and other times it was just a bunch of pixelated boxes. If I moved the antenna in a different location I got it fair but then it would be weak and unwatchable again. Now that they are on RF 33 I get it good and it is much more reliable.

nordloewelabs

06-30-09, 09:29 PM

Today I got an RCA ANT1500, which got 2 back but 7 is still out. No matter which way I aim the antenna I still can't get 7.

given the (relatively) short amount of time that ABC took to boost their signal in LA, i'm guessing it will take less then a month for their transmission to be improved in NYC. however, your choice of antenna isnt the best for Hi-VHF channels (7, 11, and 13). the best antennas for those served with both Hi-VHF and UHF are:

- Terk HDTVa (indoor)
- RadioShack UFO (indoor)

- Channel Master CM3010 (outdoor, small)
- Channel Master CM2016 (outdoor, small)
- RCA ANT751 (outdoor, small)

how far are you from the transmitters? btw, in order to receive Ch-13, i have to put my home-made Folded Dipole in the middle of the kitchen, about 8 inches off the floor. try moving your antenna around the house.

S1DIMMER

06-30-09, 10:38 PM

nordloewelabs

06-30-09, 10:58 PM

I'm about 18 miles from NYC give or take a few miles. I'm going to swap back to the silver sensor and see if I can locate the channel 7 signal. Hopefully with the boost in power they are supposed to get maybe I'll get lucky.

the Silver Sensor is different from the HDTVa. the former has no dipoles and that makes it an UHF antenna. based on your distance to the towers and the channels you want to receive, i recommend the antennas below:

- Channel Master CM2016 (outdoor, small)
- RCA ANT751 (outdoor, small)

they are small enough to be mounted indoors (if eye-sore isnt an issue). the ANT751 has better Hi-VHF reception, whereas the CM has better UHF reception.

if, when using your indoor antennas, you get the UHF channels well but have trouble with Hi-VHF (7, 11, 13), get the ANT751. its UHF gain isnt the best, but it would likely be enough if you can easily receive UHF with the Silver Sensor.

P.S.: of course, it goes without saying that if you are willing to go on the roof, you can get a bigger outdoor antenna like the Channel Master CM2018.

kousikb

07-01-09, 12:27 AM

I have found a sweet spot.. sort of in my balcony... now I am getting 7 reliably. 13 is also coming perfect today. 11 is still pixel hell.. never had any problems getting 2, 4, 5, 9, 25, 31, 41, 47, 50, 58, 63, 68 regardless of where I keep the antenna for optimal reception of 7 and 13.

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 12:37 AM

I have found a sweet spot.. sort of in my balcony... now I am getting 7 reliably. 13 is also coming perfect today.

hadnt you tried the balcony before? is this sweet spot one of those cases of "half an inch higher, half an inch farther to the right"? :)

so that means that now you will settle with the CM3010? i was really planning to get it but when you said the balcony didnt do anything for you, i re-evaluated my chances and went with the CM2016 -- despite its bad looks for use indoors. i even considered buying both and testing them for a week.... then i remembered the frustration of testing the UFO, HDTVa and TV55 at the same time. :p

i'm glad you found something that works for you.

btw, wont CW do anything to address their bad transmission?!

2VW

07-01-09, 12:49 AM

speedlaw

07-01-09, 06:35 AM

how will they overcome the inherent problems of ATSC on Lo-VHF?

I guess I'm NOT removing my full sized antenna just yet !:cool:

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 07:05 AM

ABC in Chicago, WLS - also on Channel 7, today has applied to the Commission for permission to use a low power (15kW) translator on Channel 32 to help with the station's signal in the downtown area.

Let's hope the power boost will help here, I've been told by a very reliable sources not to hope for too much, not enough power to make a significant difference.

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 08:40 AM

Channel 13 has disappeared - nothing on my SNR% meter!

dvdchance

07-01-09, 08:43 AM

Channel 13 has disappeared - nothing on my SNR% meter!

Working fine for me.

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 08:53 AM

ABC in Chicago, WLS - also on Channel 7, today has applied to the Commission for permission to use a low power (15kW) translator on Channel 32 to help with the station's signal in the downtown area.

so they will broadcast on RF-7 and RF-32 in the same area? sounds sloppy. isnt it better to increase the power or use DTS? 15kW does look little....

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 09:08 AM

Working fine for me.

Just tried the Signal Meter on my TV set, more sensitive that the one on my DirecTV O-T-A tuner.

Occasionally, I'm getting very, very low readings - not high enough for reception.

I'm speculating that 13 is doing work on its main installation and has reverted to its Aux. antenna system between the 82nd and 85th floors.

kousikb

07-01-09, 09:15 AM

hadnt you tried the balcony before? is this sweet spot one of those cases of "half an inch higher, half an inch farther to the right"? :)

Yes you hit right on the spot.. its really really sensitive. If I lower my antenna by about 1" or if I move it by 1-2".. the the Hi-VHF becomes unstable. Unfortunately, I am not at a higher elevation.. or at the top of the hill and the signal has to travel through about 8-10 rental buildings, lots of trees.. (assuming that our community is at the highest elevation at our location). The antenna has to overcome all of these factors. I will post a picture of my new setup later on. For now I have mounted to a aluminium pole with base as a bucket filled with quick cement. I should have spent a little bit more money and bought a commercial antenna mast.. ($6 at lowes) that way I could have increased the height of the antenna little bit. But with my present setup I have reached the limit and can't increase further..

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 09:22 AM

Occasionally, I'm getting very, very low readings - not high enough for reception.

I'm speculating that 13 is doing work on its main installation and has reverted to its Aux. antenna system between the 82nd and 85th floors.

i had noticed that too. after hours of work to find a sweet spot, the signal would just suddenly drop back to zero. it made me wonder if a new scan was needed or my flimsy Folded Dipole had moved. after a while, it became clear something was going on WNET's side.

so whatever they are doing, they have been doing for a while....

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 09:41 AM

Yes you hit right on the spot.. its really really sensitive. If I lower my antenna by about 1" or if I move it by 1-2".. the the Hi-VHF becomes unstable.

that's how it is for problematic channels anywhere in the world. a small change in location, height and/or direction and the signal quality changes completely. the sweet spot i use now isnt as sweet as the one in the middle of the kitchen (in the way of everything), but it gets me 50% (as opposed to 70% in the kitchen). any small change in height, position or direction and WNET disappears. the movement, however, doesnt affect the UHF channels much.

btw, WNET's signal is gone indeed -- once again. have they applied for any changes? i called them 2x last week and asked about their transmission power. both customer reps told me they were working at full capacity and there would be no increase in signal strength. i also sent them an email and the reply said:

"We have been working with the FCC to determine why certain people are having persistent problems."

at least WNET and ABC seem to be working on it. CW seems to be in a state of inertia about this whole thing. maybe i'll be able to watch CW once my CM2016 ships, but SolidSignal has emailed me to say that the antenna is in backorder now.... 1-2 weeks till shipping. :(

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 09:44 AM

Let's not forget that Tribune, licensee of WPIX is bankrupt!

That doesn't help a station to invest money, manpower and time!

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 09:48 AM

Let's not forget that Tribune, licensee of WPIX is bankrupt!

That doesn't help a station to invest money, manpower and time!

thanks for the heads up. now i know i shouldnt expect miraculous improvement in reception by moving my home-made folded dipole. :D

rothe

07-01-09, 01:06 PM

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 01:57 PM

13 is back for me!

The antenna sounds fine for picking up the NY stations - V and U.

Doubt whether any work being done on 13 will make a difference for you.

What you don't want to hear, I'm sure, is to get the antenna out of the attic and
mount it as high as you can outdoors!

FrankH3rd

07-01-09, 02:09 PM

Interesting about WNET being worked on. Let's hope it improves the situation for some of us.

I'm in Ocean Grove, and pulling in all of the major NYC stations with no problem - all except WNET. I'm using a Winegard hd7698p mounted in my attic, facing due north through the gable. It's probably way more antenna than I need. I'm actually able to get a watchable signal from WFTY in CT, 73 miles away. But regardless of anything I do - every spot in the attic, left/right, front/back, up/down - I get nothing from WNET since the transition.

Here's my TV Fool Signal Analysis Results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d07450b898bcb09

How are other people doing with WNET in Monmouth and Ocean counties?

Please state your town and the antenna you're using.

I am located in SE Hillsborough, about 40 miles SW of NYC. Using a Channel Master suburban CM3016 antenna (which is a lot less elaborate than yours) located in the attic, reception on all NYC stations, including 7, 11 and 13 is strong. A few thoughts about your reception difficulty on WNET ch 13-

- you did rescan after June 12 and are sure your digital converter or tv is really tuned to ch 13 now??
- do you have an amplifier in the circuit. If so, try removing it to see if it isn't adding noise. Sometimes amplifiers hurt more than help
- your TV Fool analysis did not indicate possibility of co-channel or adjacent channel interference, but since your antenna has f/b 20db, maybe it is pulling in an interfering station further up north from NYC. Did you try aiming your anttenna in any other directions?

Frank
WA2ISK

rothe

07-01-09, 02:18 PM

13 is back for me!

The antenna sounds fine for picking up the NY stations - V and U.

Doubt whether any work being done on 13 will make a difference for you.

I expect the same thing.

What you don't want to hear, I'm sure, is to get the antenna out of the attic and
mount it as high as you can outdoors!

And I've been considering that. I also expect that my community - the entirety of which is a historic preservation district - will frown upon the presence of a 170" long antenna on my roof. I know, I know -- they can't do that, but I don't want to deal with the argument. And besides:

1) the antenna does fine for every other station that I want (and many that I don't want) and

2) the attic affords total protection against wind, birds, falling branches, lightning, etc.

Of late, I've been wondering if there's not some localized interference in or around the 210-216 mhz band that VHF channel 13 resides in. I'm using a four-tuner home-theater PC for all of my reception and video storage needs, and this is located in the room directly below the attic-mounted antenna. I'm not aware of anything at the moment, but I'm wondering if there's not a processor, memory or bus clock that's in that range. Or maybe even some factor or divisor of some such clock that would contribute to interference with channel 13.

The big question remains: how are my neighbors throughout Monmouth and Ocean counties doing with this channel?

rperlberg

07-01-09, 02:27 PM

You hit the nail exactly on it's head. DTS and the associated uncorrectible multipath is shaping up as the next example of poor engineering related to DTV.

What's DTS?

rperlberg

07-01-09, 02:29 PM

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 02:35 PM

Try this posted by another Forum memeber.

www.richlandtowers.com/Images/Interior/dtx.pdf

rothe

07-01-09, 02:46 PM

I am located in SE Hillsborough, about 40 miles SW of NYC. Using a Channel Master suburban CM3016 antenna (which is a lot less elaborate than yours) located in the attic, reception on all NYC stations, including 7, 11 and 13 is strong.

You're considerably further west than me - I'm due south of the ESB. *IF* the coverage maps are accurate, our reception *should be* similar. Depending on the answers from other forum members closer to me, that may yet be confirmed.

A few thoughts about your reception difficulty on WNET ch 13-

- you did rescan after June 12 and are sure your digital converter or tv is really tuned to ch 13 now??

Yes. Virtual 13 definitely maps to real 13.

- do you have an amplifier in the circuit. If so, try removing it to see if it isn't adding noise. Sometimes amplifiers hurt more than help

Haven't tried that yet, but it's about time that I do. FWIW, I'm running with a Channel Master 7777 and about 30 feet of RG-6. Eventually, I'm going to move the home theater PC into the basement, which will add about 30 more feet of RG-6.

- your TV Fool analysis did not indicate possibility of co-channel or adjacent channel interference, but since your antenna has f/b 20db, maybe it is pulling in an interfering station further up north from NYC. Did you try aiming your antenna in any other directions?

I've tried aiming in various directions within about a 30 degree range with no improvement. I've settled on aiming in the exact direction of the ESB and raising the height of the antenna as high as it will go within the crest of my attic roof and still maintain that orientation.

Still no joy, but it did improve the already-negligible error rate in signals from other NYC stations.

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 03:04 PM

I've tried aiming in various directions within about a 30 degree range with no improvement.

when dealing with a problematic signal, you need to "push" the barriers of feasibility a little further. if possible, try a 90-degree rotation to each side. and btw, the higher spot isnt necessarily the best one for every station. it all depends on how deffraction (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html) is happening in your location.

MTVhike

07-01-09, 03:08 PM

Once again, as has been mentioned numerous times on the Forum -

Although the signal emanate from the same physical antenna -

Different frequencies and different power!

I also have the same question regarding WNET and WPIX. What you say seems reasonable, except that these two stations a) are in the same location on the ESB; b) have almost the same frequencies (channels 13 and 11), and c) their TVfool power at my location (46 miles east of the ESB) are -67.1 and -67.3, an insignificant difference in my opinion.

Mike

SnellKrell

07-01-09, 03:14 PM

MTVhike

07-01-09, 03:28 PM

Mike -

"...same physical antenna..." = "...same location" I made that point already!

"Almost the same frequencies." Have you heard of "almost' pregnant?

Each television channel has its distrinct (different) frequency!

Just because a Web site says is positive and leads one to believe that you should receive a station bears absolutely no relationship to reality.

I don't believe TFfool's calculations would be that wrong, unless the data from the stations are incorrect - GIGO (garbage in garbage out)!

It seems as if many people are having much more trouble getting 11 than 13, especially those people on Long Island. I assume TVfool's calculations take into account the directionality of the transmitting antennas, height, ERP, etc.

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 03:33 PM

I also have the same question regarding WNET and WPIX. What you say seems reasonable, except that these two stations a) are in the same location on the ESB; b) have almost the same frequencies (channels 13 and 11), and c) their TVfool power at my location (46 miles east of the ESB) are -67.1 and -67.3, an insignificant difference in my opinion.

Mike

the combination of diff freq and diff power are enough to create an utterly different scenario, despite the marginal differences. example: letter addressed to the first person below wouldnt reach the second one.

- Rob, 100 W 49th St, NY 10010
- Tob, 200 E 50th St, NJ 90010

the 2 multiplications below also yield completely diff results:

- 1000 x 1
- 1001 x 0

DTVintermods

07-01-09, 04:35 PM

What's DTS?

Distributed (on-channel) Transmission System aka Single Frequency Network (SFN). It works OK with the European HDTV modulation but not with the US ATSC modulation (8-VSB). That is so because the 8-VSB based receivers require a multiple-taps (hundreds) complex equalizer to process the echoes. This process takes too long, especially for strong dynamic echoes (usually the case) and leaves the "successfully" attenuated echoes behind as noise. Of course, the equalizer does not succeed in attenuating all echoes. Those also end in the noise bin.

rothe

07-01-09, 04:38 PM

when dealing with a problematic signal, you need to "push" the barriers of feasibility a little further. if possible, try a 90-degree rotation to each side. and btw, the higher spot isnt necessarily the best one for every station. it all depends on how deffraction (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html) is happening in your location.

I actually don't have that much room in this attic. I can probably sweep a range from about 20 degrees W of true N to about 40 degrees E of true N. And I've tried the entire range of antenna height that I have available. Again, all channels come in great except 13.

I'm increasingly convinced that this must be from interference around that 210-216 Mhz range. I downloaded a program that will tell me the clock frequencies within my home theater PC (google CPU-Z) and will check that theory when I get home.

I wish I had an oscilloscope. With that and a small indoor antenna, I'm sure I'd be able to locate an interference source, if there is one.

FrankH3rd

07-01-09, 06:12 PM

You're considerably further west than me - I'm due south of the ESB. *IF* the coverage maps are accurate, our reception *should be* similar. Depending on the answers from other forum members closer to me, that may yet be confirmed.

I've tried aiming in various directions within about a 30 degree range with no improvement. I've settled on aiming in the exact direction of the ESB and raising the height of the antenna as high as it will go within the crest of my attic roof and still maintain that orientation.

Still no joy, but it did improve the already-negligible error rate in signals from other NYC stations.

I have an old set of rabbit ears, so just for the heck of it I connected it to my Zenith converter with a 5 foot section of RG6 coax using a vhf-uhf combiner. The length of each half of the rabbit ears was extended about 17 to 18 inches, oriented horizontally (not in a 'V" shape). I then walked around the tv (located in a second story bedroom). I was able to find a few hot spots in the room that produced a moderate signal for WNET channel 13. (Remember, I am located abuot 40 miles SW of NYC). You might try this yourself, or alternately make a folded dipole antenna out of 300 ohm antenna wire. If it works, it is easier than moving a big antenna around in a hot attic.

Frank
WA2ISK

nordloewelabs

07-01-09, 06:30 PM

And I've tried the entire range of antenna height that I have available. Again, all channels come in great except 13.

i'm almost 9 miles north of the towers and, using the Folded Dipole shown below (75cm wide), i can get all UHF channels without any problems. on the other hand, i cannot get the Hi-VHF channels without a fight (i have ordered the CM2016 already). there are 2 sweet spots in my place:

- the middle of the kitchen.
- the living room corner (shown in the pic).

in the living room, i cannot get Ch-13 if:

- antenna is rotated more than 45-degrees in any direction;
- antenna is raised or lowered more than 6 inches.

bottom line, some channels can be very picky.... too bad you cant move your antenna any further. maybe you can have a small Hi-VHF antenna (RCA ANT751) somewhere else in your attic, then combine the 2....(?)

before making my Folded Dipole, i was using a loop (also made of 12 AWG wire), but with it i couldnt get Ch-13. i've tried a RS UFO and a Terk HDTVa for 2 weeks but, although they did great for UHF (the latter did better), their rabbit ears could not get me Ch-13 as well as this (mega-ugly) Folded Dipole can. i suggest FDs for anyone having troubles with rabbit ears. i can only get Ch-7 at 30% now, but it will probably be better after WABC's impending signal boost.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2923/75cmfoldeddipole.th.jpg (http://img213.imageshack.us/i/75cmfoldeddipole.jpg/)

2VW

07-02-09, 02:56 AM

Haven't tried that yet, but it's about time that I do. FWIW, I'm running with a Channel Master 7777 and about 30 feet of RG-6. Eventually, I'm going to move the home theater PC into the basement, which will add about 30 more feet of RG-6.

If you are using a BalUn from the antenna to the preamp maybe try swapping it with a different model. They are not all the same. Some are quite lossy. My first DTV receiving setup used twinlead all the way down to the converter box. I saw quite a difference in meter readings switching between different BalUns. I eventually hooked up a preamp with a built-in BalUn.

I'm near Toms River and channel 13 comes in just fine here. The last several days had ducting and TV was coming in from all over the map. I logged 6 new stations. Reminds me of my old TVDXing days only it takes a rescan in each different direction at this point. I'll post a list sometime soon.

Dave Loudin

07-02-09, 06:01 AM

I actually don't have that much room in this attic. I can probably sweep a range from about 20 degrees W of true N to about 40 degrees E of true N. And I've tried the entire range of antenna height that I have available. Again, all channels come in great except 13.

I'm increasingly convinced that this must be from interference around that 210-216 Mhz range. I downloaded a program that will tell me the clock frequencies within my home theater PC (google CPU-Z) and will check that theory when I get home.

I wish I had an oscilloscope. With that and a small indoor antenna, I'm sure I'd be able to locate an interference source, if there is one.

In the DC thread, a person having trouble with a high-VHF channel isolated the problem to the case fans on his gaming PC.

dagger666

07-02-09, 10:06 AM

for me it's 11 and 7 are the hardest to pickup. I had to move my monoprice antenna from the wall to the chair for them but now 2 comes in weak. I figured it will take about a year untill everything goes the way it's supposed to.

rothe

07-02-09, 11:12 AM

- do you have an amplifier in the circuit. If so, try removing it to see if it isn't adding noise. Sometimes amplifiers hurt more than help

I pulled the pre-amp out of the circuit this morning, and lost many more channels than I'd ever had problems with before. And this is with only about 20 to 25 feet of RG6. With that short of a cable run, I probably shouldn't even need a pre-amp. This further supports the idea that I have a RF noise source nearby the antenna. With the pre-amp, the antenna signal is boosted enough to overcome the local source of noise. Or that's my best theory for now.

If you are using a BalUn from the antenna to the preamp maybe try swapping it with a different model. They are not all the same. Some are quite lossy. My first DTV receiving setup used twinlead all the way down to the converter box. I saw quite a difference in meter readings switching between different BalUns. I eventually hooked up a preamp with a built-in BalUn.

I've tried a number of different baluns, and also a number of different splitters, all to no effect. Even without the single splitter that's in the line, reception was the same.

I'm near Toms River and channel 13 comes in just fine here.

That's an important data point. Thank you. This further supports the theory that the transmitted signal is strong enough in my area, and that I have an RF noise source nearby.

In the DC thread, a person having trouble with a high-VHF channel isolated the problem to the case fans on his gaming PC.

I tried installing my video capture software on my laptop, and then turning off my home theater PC. Surprisingly, I got the same results. Of course, I used the laptop in the same room that the HTPC is installed in, which is directly below the attic-mounted antenna. And for all that I know, the laptop may have as much or more RF emissions as the HTPC.

The next thing that I'm thinking about trying is running a cable down to the basement and trying things out there. If the PC is the source of the interference, then the antenna will be considerably less likely to pick up that RF noise, and the pre-amp will boost the signal beyond what could leak into the PC-mounted tuners via the cable connections.

akahooper

07-02-09, 12:05 PM

I have some pictures for you of my existing antenna and the UHF which I have inside and have been testing inside.

When I took the pictures I realized that when I was at the top of the hill that my antenna is actually high enough that it almost but not quite is eye level with the top of the hill. So while I do have issues with trees my situation with the hill is not so bad.

I think I uploaded pictures for you....

Sorry there, I haven't been ignoring you, just this is a busy time of year for me with the 4th.

Yea you got trees... lotsa trees...

I have seen that UHF antenna before, but damned if I can remember what it's called, and couldn't find it on a quick look around. I suppose you could experiment a little, but I doubt you'll get any better results - that probably doesn't have anywhere near the gain of your 4228. (And I'm sure nada for VHF.) However if you did get some positive results you may have than found a better location for your antenna altogether.

Keep us posted.
(And if I come across the specs on that UHF I'll put 'em up.)

akahooper

07-02-09, 12:22 PM

Thanks for the great suggestions. Another quick question I have. The cable running from the outside antenna to the 2505 amp is currently that flat 300ohm cable, which I then connect to one of those converters to get the 75ohm into the amp. Would I be better off doing the conversion at the antenna and running 75ohm cable into the house, or will it not really matter much.

I should replace the cable either way since the cable itself is probably 20 or so years old, but which would be the better way to go?

DEFINITELY!
A long run of 300 ohm is almost certainly going to add problems for you. If it's not picking up interference, it can also act as an antenna and introduce a multipath signal situation for your tuner to deal with.

Order the HDP 269 and an outdoor Balun (300 to 75 ohm transformer) from Solid Signal. (Or you could pick up the Balun at Radio Shack for around $5-$6.)

Mount the amp on the mast, close to the antenna, and connect with a short length of RG-6. (Don't forget to leave a drip loop and seal the outdoor connectors with electrical tape to avoid moisture intrusion.) Then run RG-6 down into the house and connect to the power injector, and out to your splitter/TV.

You should see vast improvements!
Keep us posted.

nordloewelabs

07-02-09, 12:59 PM

The next thing that I'm thinking about trying is running a cable down to the basement and trying things out there. If the PC is the source of the interference, then the antenna will be considerably less likely to pick up that RF noise, and the pre-amp will boost the signal beyond what could leak into the PC-mounted tuners via the cable connections.

a few things that you might or might not have taken into account.

the problem with Hi-VHF reception is nation-wide. lots of people are having issues with channels in this band! that means that either:

a) all of us are having problems with some type of machine-caused interference.
b) there was too much optimism by the FCC's part (this is my personal opinion) when defining the limits for signal strength.

for a moment, let's assume (a) is the correct answer. it's possible that certain common devices (phones, routers, PCs, CFL bulbs, etc) cause particularly more problems to digital transmissions on Hi-VHF. the 3 tests below can help you narrow down to the culprit.

1) get a small TV set and take it outside or take it to your basement. a laptop or desktop will not help ruling out the culprit if they are the source of interference. maybe you can get a portable TV from a friend (aasuming you have a converter).

2) make a Folded Dipole (http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15313) using 12-AWG (or thicker) wire. make it to ch-13 because that is the "less worse" Hi-VHF channel right now. the width for ch-13 is approximately 67cm (26in), which means you would need a single 55in stretch of wire. go around the house/neighbourhood like a Ghostbuster till you find the sweet spot. btw, you can make a better antenna if you use thin copper pipes, instead (note: measurements remain the same).

3) grab your rabbit ears and extend each side approximately 35cm (14in). stretch them horizontally. go around the house again.

it's probably a good idea to turn off as many non-essential devices and lights as you can during any of these tests. i believe your problem is multipath, but you could be right about being machine-generated noise. it's worth noting that i have 2 PCs with analog TV cards and that's what i use as DVR. i get Ch-13 at 40% or 70% depending on where i place my Folded Dipoles.

foxycat

07-02-09, 01:58 PM

nordloewelabs--Could you be more specific about how to construct the folded dipole? Is this actually better than the bowtie that RS sells?

I'm in an apt bldg, 12 mi north of the ESB. I now have the rooftop antenna and my UFO (I think this is what you meant by the saucer-shaped Radio Shack antenna) on a splitter both feeding into the box. NBC-4 comes in all broken up or too weak to make a pic. I can get 2, 7 and 13. 5, 9 and 11 don't interest me. Without the UFO, 2 and 7 are intermittent. Any ideas? According to TVFool, all I would need is a small indoor antenna. Ha!

MTVhike

07-02-09, 03:45 PM

...I tried installing my video capture software on my laptop, and then turning off my home theater PC. Surprisingly, I got the same results. Of course, I used the laptop in the same room that the HTPC is installed in, which is directly below the attic-mounted antenna. And for all that I know, the laptop may have as much or more RF emissions as the HTPC.

The next thing that I'm thinking about trying is running a cable down to the basement and trying things out there. If the PC is the source of the interference, then the antenna will be considerably less likely to pick up that RF noise, and the pre-amp will boost the signal beyond what could leak into the PC-mounted tuners via the cable connections.

I usually get 13 with a folded dipole in my attic with 3 bars (out of 10). If I turn on my laptop in the same room, the signal complete breaks up until the laptop boots, then it comes back, but with only 1 or 2 bars. If I am reading this web site and refresh it, or go to a new page, the signal goes away again. When I shut down the computer, the signal again disappears until the computer is off completely!

Mike

nordloewelabs

07-02-09, 04:30 PM

Folded Dipole is a good replacement for rabbit ears when dealing with Hi-VHF. it can handle UHF too, but not better than an HDTVa or UFO! however, since you are only 12 miles away, a FD will probably get you the UHF channels too. the channels that will benefit the most are ch-7 and ch-13. as things are right now, in order to get ch-11, one needs either an outdoor antenna or a lot of luck! dont worry if you cant receive ch-7 at first. WABC has already applied with the FCC for a signal boost so the FD will probably get you WABC in a few weeks.

here are 4 links that will help you. i'm sure there are others here that can also provide you good info. you can start with the 1st or 2nd link. i took a simple approach because i dont have any tools or handy-man skills.

A cheap and easy TV antenna (http://www.wfu.edu/%7Ematthews/misc/dipole.html) (using 300ohm twin-lead)
K7MEM - Folded Dipole Design (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=Two&q=K7MEM+Folded+Dipole+Design&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) (using any conductor)
Frequency Wavelength Calculator (http://www.csgnetwork.com/freqwavelengthcalc.html)
Television frequencies on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_broadcast_television_frequencies#VHF_bands)

1) pick the particular channel for which your antenna will be optimized. you should pick ch-10 because it's equidistant to ch-7 and ch-13. however, if you'd rather prioritize ch-7, feel free to pick it, instead. according to the Wikipedia link, ch-10 = 195Mhz (mid-point between 192 and 198Mhz). Ch-7 = 177Mhz; ch-13 = 213Mhz.

2) enter ch-10's frequency (195Mhz) on K7MEM's calculator and write down the length "L" it returns. note that "L" is how wide your antenna should be, not how much wire you should buy! in my antenna (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16755531&postcount=9595), i use a random spacing "S" of approx 7cm, but you can use less because the spacing "S" doesnt seem to be critical (try changing its value in the calculator and you'll see).

3) buy 12-AWG wire or thicker. thicker is better because, at the length you will need, the wire will sag on its own weight. if you can, buy a copper pipe, instead, but be careful when folding it since it can break. another good alternative is to flatten a copper pipe with a hammer. the amount of wire/pipe you'll buy is based on the formula: 2L + 2S. for example, for ch-10: (2 x 0.732m) + (2 x 0.07m) = 1.604m.

4) buy 12 or more feet of RG6 cable. you will need to walk around the room to find the sweet spot. so a short cable is not advised.

5) buy a 75 to 300ohm balun at RadioShack. tie it to the open ends of the Folded Dipole using tape. you can solder it too, but better not to do it before testing the antenna.

6) find the sweet spot. this will likely be the most annoying and time-consuming part of this whole project. you might need to place the antenna exactly 5 inches above your kitchen table, facing a half-empty bottle of coke. yes, it can get this picky. my FD is hanging on a lamp stand, but works better in the kitchen.

nordloewelabs

07-02-09, 04:44 PM

When I shut down the computer, the signal again disappears until the computer is off completely!

could be specifically related to the Wireless card in the computer. does the signal oscillates when you open a big file as well? a possible solution would be using a different channel on your router. i'm guessing you are networked via a wireless router.

MTVhike

07-02-09, 04:47 PM

could be specifically related to the Wireless card in the computer. does the signal oscillates when you open a big file as well? a possible solution would be using a different channel on your router. i'm guessing you are networked via a wireless router.
My wireless card is turned off; I use a wired ethernet connection.
Mike

nordloewelabs

07-02-09, 04:48 PM

so you only get interference when loading webpages?

MTVhike

07-02-09, 07:05 PM

so you only get interference when loading webpages?

No; I get interference when I turn the computer on while it is booting, loading or changing a web page, hybernating the computer. If, while the computer is on I don't do anything, there is much less interference (but not none). I think it is only on channel 13. I don't get 11 and don't usually watch 7. I notice no interference on the UHF channels.
Mike

rcodey

07-03-09, 12:57 AM

Did digital channel 40 in West Orange increase their power this week? I am asking because I live in West Orange and just this week I lost all Philadelphia UHF digitals except CBS-27. I'm wondering if my Channel Master pre-amp is now suffering from overload.

SnellKrell

07-03-09, 05:25 AM

Digital Channel 40, WXTV is licensed to Paterson, NJ and transmits from the Empire State Building, not in West Orange.

There is no record of the station increasing its power. It has one of the higher positions on the ESB's Antenna Mast.

You are probably experiencing changes in reception due to weather.

LenL

07-03-09, 07:39 AM

Just cancelled cable as I am happy with OTA now. Just received the DTVPAL DVR and although I have not recorded a single show or even tried, I find the tuner is better than my TV's and it locks on the borderline signals better. Plus I now have a program guide which the TV did not have!

I don't know that I can compare the signal strength now between the DTVPAL DVR versus my Sharp TV as they probably use a different measurement. Now I am getting 4.1 and 5.1 perfectly with almost zero pixilation. Stations 2.1, 7.1, 25.1, 31.1, 50.1, 63.1 and 68.1 come in quite well with an occasional blip. I am seeing 9.1, 13.1 41.1, 47.1 and 58.1 on occasion with lots of pixilation from time to time. I have not seen much of 11.1 which appears to be very bad.

FrankH3rd

07-03-09, 07:41 AM

[QUOTE=rothe;16759264]

That's an important data point. Thank you. This further supports the theory that the transmitted signal is strong enough in my area, and that I have an RF noise source nearby.
QUOTE]

Before June 12, how was your reception of analog channel 13 WNET? Was the picture quality good, or was there any interference, heterodyning bars, noise, etc? If there was, this may suggest a cause for you current inability to receive digital 13. Also, how was the quality of analog 13 compared to analog 7 and 11?

Frank
WA2ISK

rothe

07-03-09, 01:26 PM

Before June 12, how was your reception of analog channel 13 WNET? Was the picture quality good, or was there any interference, heterodyning bars, noise, etc? If there was, this may suggest a cause for you current inability to receive digital 13. Also, how was the quality of analog 13 compared to analog 7 and 11?

I had a minimal amount of EMI, and a barely tolerable amount of snow. In other words, there was some evidence of power line interference, and the signal was rather weak to start off with. Shame on me, but I only just realized this yesterday afternoon: the residential power lines serving my house and my neighbors run across poles at about the same height as my attic-mounted antenna. They're about 25 feet ahead of the front of my antenna, directly in the line of site to the ESB.

At this point, I've optimized the antenna for rock-solid reliable reception of every channel that I want except Thirteen. Fortunately, I'm getting both NJN and WLIW reliably. For reference, I'm also getting 7 and 11 reliably, too, in spite of the power line (and possibly other) interference issues that I've mentioned.

One of these days, I intend to install a gable mount on the far end of the roof. I had intended to put an FM antenna and rotor up (for WBGO out of Newark), but when I do, I'll try that location for channel 13 reception first. If it works well - it's another 20 feet further back and 7 feet higher relative to those power lines - then I'll stick with it for TV reception, and try the attic for FM radio. Then I'll get to find out how my community and immediate neighbors feel about a fourteen-foot antenna prominently on display in our "historic preservation district."

rcodey

07-03-09, 03:12 PM

Trip in VA

07-03-09, 03:25 PM

A link in this forum indicated a transmitter for 40 in West Orange.

36 (47-1) has a transmitter in West Orange.

- Trip

SnellKrell

07-03-09, 03:30 PM

To which link are you referring?

There are a lot of links and there's a lot of misinformation.

I suggest you rely on Rabbit Ears - more up to date than even governmental data.

http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/

Once again, WXTV transmission facility is on the Empire State Building!

If you don't believe me and since you're located in West Orange, knock on the door and ask!!!!

rothe

07-03-09, 04:34 PM

I usually get 13 with a folded dipole in my attic with 3 bars (out of 10). If I turn on my laptop in the same room, the signal complete breaks up until the laptop boots, then it comes back, but with only 1 or 2 bars. If I am reading this web site and refresh it, or go to a new page, the signal goes away again. When I shut down the computer, the signal again disappears until the computer is off completely!

Mike

I just stumbled on an article in Tom's Hardware Guide. Among other things, the last few pages deals with EMI from computers. It was written with an eye towards health effects, but there's an interesting graph of RF emissions out of the tested computer that shows EMI noise levels throughout a range from about 30 Mhz to a little over 1 GHz. The article is here:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/decibels-noise-canceling,review-1338.html

The section on computer RF emissions begins here:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/decibels-noise-canceling,review-1338-10.html

And the graph to which I refer is here:

http://media.bestofmicro.com/4/G/215296/original/13%20-%20First%20Tests.jpg

If the tested system is typical of many laptops and desktops, then it may have some impact on our discussions. It would seem that throughout the frequency range that they tested, there is a *minimum* of 30 dbμV/m of RF noise emitted by the tested computer. My memory of my college physics has faded enough that I don't feel like trying to figure out how much of that noise might be making its way back to my antenna and, in turn, to the computer's own tuners, but I'll bet that somebody could figure that out based on these example numbers.

An even bigger take away for me was that there was definitely noise throughout the VHF-hi range of some of our troublesome HDTV signals. That includes the 174-180Mhz range of channel 7, 198-204Mhz for channel 11, and 210-216Mhz for channel 13.

Again, I'll propose a solution for some of us - and I'll admit that I haven't tested this myself yet: move the computer and/or antenna so that the computer is as far-removed from the antenna's aperture as possible. If that means moving the computer to the basement or to a room far behind a very directional antenna, or moving the antenna to the roof, or whatever, it's going to help.

And for those of us, like me, who are receiving their HDTV signals through a home-theater PC (HTPC), it will probably help to use a pre-amplifier with your antenna. My thinking is that the pre-amp will boost the antenna signal beyond the RF noise level inherent in the computer. All you need to do is get a clean signal stronger than that noise level, and you should be golden.

More to follow....

FrankH3rd

07-03-09, 09:08 PM

I just stumbled on an article in Tom's Hardware Guide. Among other things, the last few pages deals with EMI from computers. It was written with an eye towards health effects, but there's an interesting graph of RF emissions out of the tested computer that shows EMI noise levels throughout a range from about 30 Mhz to a little over 1 GHz. The article is here:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/decibels-noise-canceling,review-1338.html

The section on computer RF emissions begins here:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/decibels-noise-canceling,review-1338-10.html

And the graph to which I refer is here:

http://media.bestofmicro.com/4/G/215296/original/13%20-%20First%20Tests.jpg

If the tested system is typical of many laptops and desktops, then it may have some impact on our discussions. It would seem that throughout the frequency range that they tested, there is a *minimum* of 30 dbμV/m of RF noise emitted by the tested computer. My memory of my college physics has faded enough that I don't feel like trying to figure out how much of that noise might be making its way back to my antenna and, in turn, to the computer's own tuners, but I'll bet that somebody could figure that out based on these example numbers.

An even bigger take away for me was that there was definitely noise throughout the VHF-hi range of some of our troublesome HDTV signals. That includes the 174-180Mhz range of channel 7, 198-204Mhz for channel 11, and 210-216Mhz for channel 13.

Again, I'll propose a solution for some of us - and I'll admit that I haven't tested this myself yet: move the computer and/or antenna so that the computer is as far-removed from the antenna's aperture as possible. If that means moving the computer to the basement or to a room far behind a very directional antenna, or moving the antenna to the roof, or whatever, it's going to help.

And for those of us, like me, who are receiving their HDTV signals through a home-theater PC (HTPC), it will probably help to use a pre-amplifier with your antenna. My thinking is that the pre-amp will boost the antenna signal beyond the RF noise level inherent in the computer. All you need to do is get a clean signal stronger than that noise level, and you should be golden.

More to follow....

Reading you post, I was curious to see if the Dell desktop computer on the second floor of our house would have a negative impact on reception. (This pc is a backup for us and is not normally on when I am watching tv in our second floor bedroom). Our second floor setup is this:

Channel Master CM3016 in attic aimed at NYC (about 40 miles to NE), about 25 feet RG6 coax to A/B switch to Zenith DTT901 digital converter; simple bowtie antenna sitting next to tv to a/b switch aimed at Philly (CH6 WPVI & most Philly uhf stations are received off backend of attic antenna, bowtie the remainder of the Philly UHF stations, almost 50 miles to SW). See photo. Computer is about 12 feet away in next bedroom & located directly below attic antenna.

I tuned to each NYC & Philly station on each antenna & displayed Zenith DTT901 signal levels, also looked for picture pixilation, etc. I then turned on the PC and repeated.

Outcome- I did not observe any difference in signal levels or picture pixilation with the PC on or off & concluded that PC was not negatively impacting digital signals in our setup, even though the PC was within 10 feet vertically of the antenna.

We also have two tv's and one pc on our first floor and basement connected to a second Channel Master CM3016 antenna in our attic, with a cheapo Phillips 10db amp to offset splitting loss;
1 Zenith DTT901 digital converter, 1 Magnavox TB100MW9 digital converter, and 1 Hauppauge HVR950 connected to a Dell desktop PC.

Since this Dell is almost always on and we are receiving all NYC and some Philly stations off the back of the antenna, including CH6 WPVI and CH12 WHYY, I already knew that the PC was not causing problems. A quick check showed that all three devices had about equal signal levels and picture quality. But is should be noted that this PC is located two stories below the attic antenna, quite a distance away. So distance from the antenna may indeed help in reducing signal interference.

One last thought- if your computer serves as your digital tv, then you might want to download (free) TSReaderLight. If it can tune onto a digital signal, it will provide a good amount of insight about what is going on.
http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

Frank
WA2ISK

nordloewelabs

07-03-09, 09:45 PM

nordloewelabs

07-04-09, 12:13 AM

new test at late hours:

======================================

- turned 1st desktop PC on (same room as antenna) and launched the TV software.
- ch-13 started at 50% signal strength (typical after mid-night).
- turned all the CFL lights on.... no changes!
- turned the 2nd desktop PC on (same room as antenna).... signal dropped to 20%!
- turned 2nd desktop PC off.... signal returned to 50%!
- placed my TabletPC (still off) 5 ft below the antenna.... no changes!
- turned TabletPC on.... signal dropped to 20%!
- put TabletPC on Hibernation.... signal returned to 50%!
- turned TabletPC on, this time, 8 ft away from antenna.... signal remained 50%!

this time both the 2nd desktop and the TabletPC caused the signal to weaken. and unlike the previous test, turning them off restored the signal strength to its 50% level. the culprit cant be a wireless card because the desktop PC doesnt have one. i guess the spinning of the hard drive causes the problem. the TabletPC, if far enough from antenna, causes no interference.

SemiChemE

07-04-09, 02:16 AM

By some miracle, I get 11 pretty well up here in Poughkeepsie at 65 miles from the ESB. I get 13 as well, although sometimes its pixelated. However, I can't get even a blip from WABC-7, despite TVfool's prediction that its signal should be ~8db stronger than 11 and 13. I suspect the reason is co-channel interference with WXXA-7 from Albany, since I can actually see about 10% signal (unwatchable) if I point my antenna to the North. I had hoped that moving my antenna from the attic to the roof might make WXXA-7 watchable, but now I'm wondering if any gains will be canceled when WABC boosts their signal.

My antenna, a VHF Yagi design, seems to be quite directional, so at first I thought co-channel interference should be minimal, but I can't find any other explanation for why WABC is absent and WXXA-7 is so weak. Note that the other Albany VHF stations (6 and 12) come in at around 30-40% and are watchable. I'm also wondering if the lower power Albany station WNYA-13 might be responsible for WNET-13's flakiness. Any thoughts?

Finally, I have to admit that I'm a bit disgusted that the FCC allowed these two Albany stations (WXXA-7 and WNYA-13) to move from UHF to VHF channels with co-channel issues. If one assumes an 80 mile range for VHF, it should have been apparent that there would be a fairly large zone (~30 miles) of overlap. If VHF was needed for coverage in the Berkshires and Adirondacks, couldn't they have used 8, 9, or 10 instead?

dagger666

07-04-09, 02:40 AM

has anyone tried to run the antenna through a surge suppressor with EMI/RF filtering like Cyberpower and Belkin power conditioner? On the first floor the DTVPAL monoprice antenna runs trough a Cyberpower 880 while my bed room monoprice antenna goes through a belkin which both have EMI/RF filtering. Upstairs phillips digital rabbit ears goes through another Cyberpower 880 and can pick up everything. Both first floor TVs have problems with 11, 7, 13.

nordloewelabs

07-04-09, 03:56 AM

has anyone tried to run the antenna through a surge suppressor with EMI/RF filtering like Cyberpower and Belkin power conditioner?

i have tried it. there was no noticeable difference.

rothe

07-04-09, 03:11 PM

One last thought- if your computer serves as your digital tv, then you might want to download (free) TSReaderLight. If it can tune onto a digital signal, it will provide a good amount of insight about what is going on.
http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

I took a look at their web site. It's an interesting program, and the error rate information looks particularly useful.

However, I'm already using another program that gives me much the same information. MPEG2Repair (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/MPEG2Repair) can fix many transport stream captures and gives me an error report as well. Here's a typical report:

MPEG2Repair: D:\The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer-2009-07-03-0.tp

Sequence Frame 0(2-I) / Time 0:00:00 :
VideoWarning: Discontinuity of (11+) packet(s). First packet ending at offset 70688
Additional error(s) detected. Increase VerboseLogLevel in INI file for details.
FileInfo: Last video errors span 168 bytes at file offset 70215

<snipped a bunch of video and audio warnings - Jim>

Sequence Frame 107482(38-B) / Time 0:59:56 :
Error: Packet 13181877 has no TS Sync Byte.
Additional error(s) detected. Increase VerboseLogLevel in INI file for details.
FileInfo: Last video errors span 170 bytes at file offset 2478243842

Sequence Frame 107483(38-B) / Time 0:59:56 :
Info: End of MPEG2 sequence

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 2.31 GB, Play Time: 00h:59m:53s
704 x 480, 29.97 fps, 15.00 Mbps (4.99 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 20.35 KB/Frame, 0.49 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 2/0 Channels (L, R), 48.0 kHz, 192 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB
31 of 107483 video frames found with errors.
8 of 112294 audio frames found with errors.
63932 corrupted video bytes in file.
2.769433 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
2.752000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

This is one of the worst reports from a typically clean station for me (WLIW). Note that the entire transport stream capture was 59:56 long, but I had about three seconds of total errors. That would be watchable, with some minor pixelation and audio dropouts. Once the errors get beyond about ten seconds in total, the program is often pretty much unwatchable.

rothe

07-04-09, 03:19 PM

rcodey

07-04-09, 03:25 PM

36 (47-1) has a transmitter in West Orange.

- Trip

Did 36 recently increase power or change their signal pattern?

rcodey

07-04-09, 03:29 PM

SnellKrell

07-04-09, 04:07 PM

The richlandtowers link posted by you on July 1.

As Trip has already pointed out, you are confusing WXTV, Channel 40 transmitting from the Empire State Building with WNJU, Channel 36 which is currently using a site in West Orange, New Jersey!

rcodey

07-04-09, 07:27 PM

dvdchance

07-04-09, 07:37 PM

My mistake it is Ch.36 from West Orange.I'm sorry. Did some work this evening and connected the same antenna to my Sony HDD-500 and all the Philly Digital UHF stations were received. The problem appears to be with the Directv receiver HR20-700 I've been using. All Philly except CBS-26(the strongest for me for several years) disappeared a few days ago.
BTW, thanks for the rabbit ears site without it I won't have received some of the Philly stations. Had to use 17.3 for 17 and 34.3 for WCAU(NBC).

I'm really surprised your getting all the Phill stations all the way in West Orange.

That gives me hope I'll be able to get them in for me in Woodbridge area. What antenna are you using? I'm assuming you have it pointed toward Philly or have a rotor?

rcodey

07-04-09, 09:18 PM

I'm really surprised your getting all the Phill stations all the way in West Orange.

That gives me hope I'll be able to get them in for me in Woodbridge area. What antenna are you using? I'm assuming you have it pointed toward Philly or have a rotor?

Right now I'm using a Channel Master 4248 stuck toward Philly. The rotor stopped working a year ago.Before it broke I could receive some Connecticut, Allentown, Harrisburg and Scranton-Wilkes-Barre UHF stations. My big advantage is elevation of 510 feet.

Falcon_77

07-06-09, 11:22 AM

DTVintermods

07-06-09, 01:38 PM

If the FCC needs any proof that NYC and Hartford shouldn't be sharing channels, they should have a look at the report I posted in the Hartford thread. From Mystic, CT at ~112 miles from the ESB:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16777449#post16777449

I can receive WPXN, from the "null" side, with a small 2-bay UHF antenna pointed to NYC. Even with the main CM4228 pointed to Hartford, I routinely lose WTIC/31 due to co-channel.

Where are 52-59 when we need them, or perhaps 60-69 instead? It might be "easier" to get some of those back. :rolleyes:
This sounds a little incredible.
The ch 31 antenna is (according to the FCC) @ 410AMSL and Mystic is 20miles beyond the radio horizon in that direction, which is at 50miles.
I also looked up the FCC database and the ERP in the 'null" toward Mystic is app 100kW max. That translates to app 30dBu at 30'AG. But theoretically you need at least 41dBu to decode and practically, 51dBu.
Maybe the propagation over the water is the reason you are able to decode and why the radio horizon and path loss calculation over ground do not apply...

Falcon_77

07-06-09, 03:08 PM

Yes, it's definitely tropo and water path tropo can be most effective. It can make quite a few distant NYC stations stronger than my "locals," which are at 51 miles.

eclectogeek

07-06-09, 10:51 PM

Reception info ~35 to 40 miles due west of NYC in western morris county, nj. Inside the attic CM4228 old style (using for UHF only) and winegard HD7694 (using VHF only) combined through a low loss vhf/uhf combiner (not a backward splitter!) then fed through an old radio shack remote distribution amp in attic to 5 TVs. Receiving all NY stations at 65% or better consistently. VHF 7, 11 and 13 are fine at 85%, 77% and 75% respectively. CBS 2.1 runs in the mid 80's but bounces around a little later at night. 4.1 runs around 90-93%. Ion 31 runs around 65%. Percents measured on directv H10 receivers.

Tried using the HD7694 alone but not enough UHF gain so continue to use my old CM4228 for UHF.

kickass69

07-06-09, 11:00 PM

What town over this way? You can tell where I am. Atleast that's the unfortuante truth it seems. An antenna in the attic or outside vs here at 1,100 feet with RCA ANT525 antenna/rabbit ears up this way. I only get CBS 2.1, NBC 4.1/4.2/4.4, My Network 9.1/9.2 (Fox), 63.1-5 (WMBC) and 68.1 (WFUT) and 68.2 along with WKOB-LP (Channel 42) and WASA-LP (Channel 64). Would be nice to get NJN but no luck.

nordloewelabs

07-07-09, 01:04 AM

i'm not receiving ABC, CW or Thirteen right now (Tue, 2am). are all three of them off-air? maybe they combined antenna is under going maintenance.... that sucks! i was planning to record the rerun of Miss Marple at 2:30am. :(

2VW

07-07-09, 01:59 AM

new test at late hours:

======================================

- turned 1st desktop PC on (same room as antenna) and launched the TV software.
- ch-13 started at 50% signal strength (typical after mid-night).
- turned all the CFL lights on.... no changes!
- turned the 2nd desktop PC on (same room as antenna).... signal dropped to 20%!
- turned 2nd desktop PC off.... signal returned to 50%!
- placed my TabletPC (still off) 5 ft below the antenna.... no changes!
- turned TabletPC on.... signal dropped to 20%!
- put TabletPC on Hibernation.... signal returned to 50%!
- turned TabletPC on, this time, 8 ft away from antenna.... signal remained 50%!

this time both the 2nd desktop and the TabletPC caused the signal to weaken. and unlike the previous test, turning them off restored the signal strength to its 50% level. the culprit cant be a wireless card because the desktop PC doesnt have one.

Certain desktop PC power supplies are marketed without proper EMI filters.

People who build computers will usually land up with one of those.

Old Macs are a great source of the proper filter. Just gut the power supply. The necessary stuff is easily swapped in to the offending unit if one can solder.

2VW

07-07-09, 02:12 AM

Yes, it's definitely tropo and water path tropo can be most effective. It can make quite a few distant NYC stations stronger than my "locals," which are at 51 miles.

In case you have not seen this:
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

I'm currently receiving television from many stations normally not seen at my location.

dagger666

07-07-09, 08:11 AM

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d497b1ea66c3fc8

I'm having trouble with 7,11,13 also, either they all come in or just one. Last night they all came in until 11 when all 3 were lost. This morning 11 came in with a 16 strength while 13 doesn't come in and 7 is all screwed up. I moved my monoprice antenna around my room and put it back where i had it the first time. It was on the left side of my back window then i moved it to the right which gave me all channel and 13. Now after the switch i moved it back to the left side of the window. Channel 5 is the best with a single strength of over 80 and it shows.

nordloewelabs

07-07-09, 08:42 AM

Certain desktop PC power supplies are marketed without proper EMI filters.

People who build computers will usually land up with one of those.

i considered the possibility of being the PSU, but at end, i found the hard drive to be the more likely culprit because:

1) my PSU is an Antec BP500U.
2) the TabletPC, running on battery, also causes interference.

i'll investigate it further, anyway.

kousikb

07-07-09, 11:06 AM

R.F. Burns

07-07-09, 11:48 AM

I highly doubt whether EMI is causing issues with Hi-VHF reception. The last 3-4 days 7 and 13 are pretty messed up. Now I have laptop, netbook, HTPC (have a cheapo PSU.. came with the cabinet) and an old 700 Mhz athalon PC (for magicjack) running at the same time in my living room.. it doesn't worsen the situation for sure. What worsens (especially channel 7) is that if there are some strong winds blowing the leaves of the tree adjacent to my balcony.. I see that 7 breaks up. It doesn't affect 13 as much as RF 7. It doesnt affect the UHF at all. I have now learnt to live without 7, 11 and 13. If they come fine.. good.. otherwise I just switch to a different channel.. its not the end of the world. But definitely I will miss 7 when Lost have their final season this fall unless the situation improves.

It isn't only the High V's that suffer due to high winds. The UHF channels also suffer. I can watch my signal meter (I have two HD TV's and a RCA convertor) go from full "pinned' condx to zero and then back to a solid signal. It isn't only effecting me. I was watching this happen to WNJM last Saturday and so I switched to my DirecTV feed (They get their signals over the air) and they had the same drop outs. Instead of pixilating the picture went to black on DirecTV. This is a major problem with OTA digital television. I'm not sure a power increase will help with LOS issues. The only fix I can think of would be greater buffering, but that would bring other issues to the table as well as firmwear updates for millions of TV's. This is a major problem in my opinion.

rothe

07-07-09, 12:10 PM

I highly doubt whether EMI is causing issues with Hi-VHF reception.

That's a pretty broad statement. Certainly, it's not the cause of everybody's reception problems, but I have no doubt that it's a cause for some.

Those of us who are in fringe areas or other weak-signal areas will be more susceptible to EMI problems than those who have stronger signals. If the signal is weak, then noise levels are that much more likely to overwhelm those signals.

nordloewelabs

07-07-09, 12:41 PM

SubaruB4

07-07-09, 05:05 PM

is anyone having issues with WPIX? and WABC?

I'm watching WPIX now and my signal is around 50-70% but I get a audio drop out like every 5 seconds also the video will freeze for that second that the audio drops too..

Happened today which I was watching the Jackson thing.. It was rather annoying I thought it was the ABC feed that was doing that.

I ordered CV triple play yesterday but I will still keep my OTA HD connected

DTVintermods

07-07-09, 06:17 PM

nordloewelabs

07-07-09, 06:22 PM

I do too
I don't think they have raised their power. They may have a channel combiner problems...But whatever, their reception in the last week or so has turned marginal

from what i remember, channels 7, 11 and 13 are in a combiner. given that ch-7 and ch-13 were off-air during the weenie hours of today, they might be doing work on the equipment.

SnellKrell

07-07-09, 06:25 PM

Haven't noticed any real difference in 7 and 11's reception.

Have not seen or heard of any Hi-V Combiner problems.

I've been checking whether the FCC has approved 7's request to boost power,
and it hasn't happened yet.

nordloewelabs

07-07-09, 06:33 PM

I've been checking whether the FCC has approved 7's request to boost power,
and it hasn't happened yet.

once it's approved, how long does it take to get implemented?

Daniel Perales

07-07-09, 06:48 PM

It seems that I'm unable to recieve WNYE for a few days, now. I don't know if it's just off the air or not.

I live on the 18th floor in a Chelsea apartment complex with an unblocked view of the Empire State Building (less than a mile, away).

My antenna is an old Radio Shack indoor Double Bow-tie that I have placed against the window within the ESB line of sight.

Danny

SnellKrell

07-07-09, 06:51 PM

once it's approved, how long does it take to get implemented?

I asked this very question of someone who should know and the answer astounded me.

"A few seconds!"

nordloewelabs

07-07-09, 06:53 PM

It seems that I'm unable to recieve WNYE for a few days, now. I don't know if it's just off the air or not.

i often watch the news by DW and BBC on NYCTV 25.1. if they've changed anything, it hasnt been noticeable to me.

SubaruB4

07-07-09, 07:37 PM

jpru34

07-08-09, 10:04 AM

I have noticed that Ion has been coming in significantly stronger the past 10 days (even after I factor in changes in the weather/atmosphere)

dagger666

07-08-09, 10:29 AM

I figured it would take the whole year to clear everything up. How come Channel 9 hasn't changed while 7,11,13 have? Did channel 9 stay the same or is it because comes from jersey. Some time i need to switch to channel 9 then go to channel 11 to clear up the crap. What happened to channel 21, it has always been trouble funny since it and me are on long island.

kickass69

07-08-09, 11:19 AM

That's because WWOR moved to UHF..Channel 38 while the rest moved back to High VHF which has been the huge problem area reception wise.

SnellKrell

07-08-09, 11:41 AM

WWOR, since it began digital transmission has always been on Channel 38!

Boy, did the station luck out.

mikepier

07-08-09, 07:49 PM

I have noticed that Ion has been coming in significantly stronger the past 10 days (even after I factor in changes in the weather/atmosphere)

I took a quick look at my strength meter and I do not notice any difference. Its been about 40% for me since I hooked up my antenna a few months ago

nordloewelabs

07-09-09, 12:01 AM

kickass69

07-09-09, 12:51 AM

Ever since the transition it seems at midnight most of the NYC tv stations on the Empire State Building either shutdown or go to low power until 4 AM or so as I've noticed WCBS and WNBC go bye bye as well at midnight. I also noticed WCBS-FM go to low power as well out this way at midnight.

newhdcrt

07-09-09, 01:22 AM

dvdchance

07-09-09, 08:02 AM

SnellKrell

07-09-09, 08:12 AM

I doubt what is currently being done will improve your reception. The only major change at hand that would affect signal quality is Channel 7's request for more power.

More than likely, work is being done in the middle of the night on the antenna mast and stations are switching to the Aux. antennas between the 82nd and 85th floors of the ESB.

DTVintermods

07-09-09, 08:25 AM

nordloewelabs

07-09-09, 12:14 PM

i called WNET-13 today. now they have a long automatic message that tries to explain the reception problems. when i called them 2-3 weeks ago, there was no such message. they might have got flooded with inquires regarding bad reception. well, among other things the message says something like:

WNET msg: WNET, ABC and CW are broadcast from the same antenna on top of ESB using "equal strength" and we are working with the FCC to address the persistent problems in our area. if you can receive ch-7 and ch-11, you should be able to receive ch-13 as well. some antenna adjustment might be necessary, though.equal strength? did i misunderstand this? what will happen once ABC gets its signal boost? can the combiner boost individual stations? after the message, i talked to a customer rep regarding the reception problems post-midnight:

WNET rep: every year, during the summer, some mantainence is done on the antenna at late hours. and during the process, the 3 stations on the combiner transmit from a lower floor. there will be a short pause on the work in a few days, but it will be re-started again a few weeks later.so basically, during the summer, late night reception isnt guatanteed. :( so dont count on late night talkshows or reruns. i also asked whether the work on the antenna had anything to do with the bad Hi-VHF reception that affects the area. he answered something like this:

WNET rep: i dont have details on the nature of the work done. i believe it's a routine annual mantainence unrelated to the Hi-VHF problems.

SemiChemE

07-09-09, 12:23 PM

is WNET-13 going off-air every day after midnight?!?!
whatever they are doing on the Combiner, i hope it improves my reception.
ABC-7 and CW-11 seem to be off too.

either that or all these channels are broadcasting at super
low power in the weenie hours....

Strange, I'm seeing exactly the opposite. Previously, I was getting CW-11 and WNET-13 at a watchable ~30%. I was getting nothing from ABC-7. Starting last week, WNET-13 dropped to ~5% and ABC-7 started appearing at ~10% (unwatchable). Last night around 1am ABC-7 dropped out completely and sure enough WNET-13 jumped back up to ~30%. This morning ABC-7 was up to ~15%, still not enough for a picture and WNET-13 was back down to ~5%.

Perhaps the Alternate antenna is at a sweetspot for me to get WNET-13? If so, I wish they'd just stay there! CW-11 has been more or less steady during this whole time.

lost51

07-09-09, 12:30 PM

NervousCat

07-09-09, 01:11 PM

Tonight during Craig Ferguson's monologue at about 12:45 am I lost cbs 2-1 put picked up cbs 3-1 from philly.
This is with a cm 2016 which replaced my radio shack 15-264. Neither of which will pull in any vhf except channel 39 which is analog. I am in Plainfield NJ 07060 20 miles from the ESB and can receive uhf channel 3 from philly with the antenna facing the wrong direction, but can't receive any vhf signals from NY. I receive all the uhf channels that antenna web says are available. Would a weingard 1080 be any better?

The CM 2016 antenna is UHF yagi design with a VHF dipole added.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/Five_Antennas.html

The article also mentioned that a CM Titan 2 7777 preamp dramatically improves reception for the CM 2016. Pete Putman writes: "Hitched to a high-gain preamp, though, it holds its own on UHF with the C1 and C2, and can snag those high-band V’s with ease — even off the rear of the antenna (although let’s face it, the VHF element is basically a dipole with a figure-8 reception pattern!)."

As for a Winegard 1080, I know someone who has one up in Putnam County, NY (45 miles North of ESB) and he can't receive Channels 7, 11 or 13 with it.

ira_l

07-09-09, 01:20 PM

I'm about 30 miles NNE of Empire in Westchester County, NY. Ossining is on the Hudson. I'm about a mile east of the river. Since the transition, I have been having trouble receiving WNYW and WWOR, particularly during the daytime hours. WWOR is generally OK, not great though with occational pixellation and dropouts of the signal. WNYW is extremely pixellated when it does come in at all. At night, I get both at 70% to 80% SS with no problem,

My antenna is attic mounted, RCA ANT3036W at about 12 feet off the ground.
It is connected to a Channel Master 7777 amplifier set to combined UHF/VHF with the FM trap set to permit FM radio reception.

It picks up everything else extremely well, (ex. WCBS and WNJU are coming in at 100% 24/7.) FM reception is superb. I'm having no trouble with the three VHF stations. I get WRNN and WTBY off the "back of the antenna" just fine. They pound in over here, in fact.

Here is my TVFOOL information. (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db09aa039c1611d)

I'm wondering:

Is there anyone else in the Hudson Valley having similar issues?

Why am I having these difficulties in the daytime?

I know that WNYW and WWOR use a different antenna than the others, but still. I would think I wouldn't be having difficulty receiving them in light of the excellent reception I get from the other stations whose antennas are also on Empire.

Any suggestions that might improve my reception of WNYW and WWOR are welcome. Thank you very much for your help!

NervousCat

07-09-09, 01:21 PM

New compact VHF-Hi antenna coming out at the end of this month from Antennas Direct:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C5-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

It's not cheap - $119.99

kousikb

07-09-09, 02:06 PM

I don't know if this has been talked about before, so forgive me if it has.

What is the business reason for the 7, 11 and 13 channels to go back to VHF? Surely they would have known people will have problems. Their market share will go down because no one can see their shows along with the paid commercials. I can just Hulu most of their shows and bypass everything else because I can't get good reception.

One motivation for going to VHF is to save power bill. Right now ABC is transmitting at 11kw (I think).. whereas they used to transmit at 250kw (guessing) when they were in UHF. The reason VHF needs lower power is that VHF analog used to reach longer distance with lower power compared to UHF. And VHF is percieved to have better propgation characteristics in mountain/hilly area. But digital hi-VHF appears to be a total different ball game than analog hi-VHF. Also one reason they moved to analog VHF is because FCC mandated them to move to make rooms available for spectrum sale to Verizon/At&T. Also VHF powers are kept low so that adjacent market channels shouldn't interfere with each other on the same channel or adjacent channels.

NervousCat

07-09-09, 02:08 PM

I don't know if this has been talked about before, so forgive me if it has.

What is the business reason for the 7, 11 and 13 channels to go back to VHF? Surely they would have known people will have problems. Their market share will go down because no one can see their shows along with the paid commercials. I can just Hulu most of their shows and bypass everything else because I can't get good reception.

To save money on electricity. VHF stations generally broadcast with lower power compared to UHF stations to achieve the same or similar coverage. There is also the assumption that ATSC digital broadcasting can be 10 times more efficient than NTSC analog, which is why you see these really low VHF effective radiated power levels for digital broadcasts. I can't help but think of that episode of The Odd Couple where Tony Randall writes "ASSUME" on the blackboard as says: "Never ASSSUME! Why? Because you make an ASS out of U and ME!"

LenL

07-09-09, 04:07 PM

ProjectSHO89

07-09-09, 04:55 PM

I know there are probably some folks who need a hi VHF antenna but I think most of us need an antenna that gets hi VHF well and UHF. Last time I checked we have stations broadcasting on hi VHF and UHF. How many of us want to have 2 antennas to mess around with?

This is an antenna that does not make sense but for a few.

It makes perfect sense for anyone who already owns a good UHF antenna but now needs a high-VHF antenna and doesn't want a 5'-10' long boom antenna on their house.

It also makes a fair UHF antenna although it isn't presented as such.

The single-unit alternative for medium-long range U-V reception would be something like a WD-7695 or so. Last time I checked, those were pretty big.

I guess the 5 and 10 element VHF-Yagis from other companies don't make any sense, either, based on your statement. Perhaps everyone should quit making high-VHF antennas and stations should quit using those channels... Yeah, that will fix everything!

Daniel Perales

07-09-09, 05:00 PM

I been having issues with 25-2 for a few days.. I just got back from N.C. on Sunday and WNYE has been acting funny since then.

Well, I'm begining to recieve it, again (and I didn't even touch my antenna).

Danny

SubaruB4

07-09-09, 05:43 PM

Well, I'm begining to recieve it, again (and I didn't even touch my antenna).

Danny

I will try again I had to remove my UHF antenna to install a window AC.

LenL

07-10-09, 07:46 AM

So you think there is a market out there that wants to spend $120 to add a second antenna to get 3 stations? I suppose some people have the bucks and interest.

NervousCat

07-10-09, 08:52 AM

I expect some places online (like Solid Signal) to sell it for less than $120. Google shopping search found the lowest price at $83 so far.

http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20204600053

You can still get a Winegard YA 1713 for less than $40, if you have room for a VHF Yagi.

R.F. Burns

07-10-09, 09:31 AM

Any word on what date and time the WCBS nightlight service end?

SnellKrell

07-10-09, 09:47 AM

It was scheduled for 7/12 - one month of nightlight.

poly_poly-man

07-10-09, 11:09 AM

~40 miles south of NYC, with a cm4228 pointed to the north (a bit off, but high enough).

Channel-by-channel:

WCBS is now the strongest channel here - except right after Craig Ferguson's monologues every night... then it weakens down to nearly nothing.

WNBC is very strong, no issues

WNYW - used to be the strongest channel (pre-transition), now is among the weakest - drops below the magical 40% mark quite often.

WABC - seems strong enough, even without a real vhf antenna. Not really strong, but consistently strong enough (can't comment about night)

WWOR - same as WNYW - it seems when 5 is dropping out, 9 is strong, and vv.

WPIX - absolutely 0 signal recently...

WNET - fine during the day, haven't tried at night.

anything else - seems fine, 'cept ION of course...

dagger666

07-10-09, 06:08 PM

Tonight i can get 13 with a reading of 22 but channel 7 & 11 can't be found. OK the test is over and it's time to go back to UHF. Nothing you try is going to fix this so screw VHF already.

R.F. Burns

07-11-09, 04:06 AM

It was scheduled for 7/12 - one month of nightlight.

That I knew but what time of day is the shut down. I want to record it.

SnellKrell

07-11-09, 04:21 AM

Any word on what date and time the WCBS nightlight service end?

If you knew the date, why did you ask for it?

Thank you!

R.F. Burns

07-11-09, 06:51 AM

If you knew the date, why did you ask for it?

Thank you!

Forgive me for being human. Do you know what time the shut down will occur?

mikepier

07-11-09, 08:35 AM

That I knew but what time of day is the shut down. I want to record it.

Why, do you think its going to be a repeat when WCBS did an official sign-off on 6/12?
That was a classic,with the national anthem, the old B&W test signal pattern, and all. I was fortunate to be watching that at work when it occured.

dagger666

07-11-09, 08:58 AM

Any word on what date and time the WCBS nightlight service end?

What is WCBS nightlight?

R.F. Burns

07-11-09, 12:25 PM

Why, do you think its going to be a repeat when WCBS did an official sign-off on 6/12?
That was a classic,with the national anthem, the old B&W test signal pattern, and all. I was fortunate to be watching that at work when it occured.

It really doesn't matter. I'm not interested in ceremony. I want to record the final high power analog television transmitter shutting down. I also have recorded WWOR & WPIX shutting down as well as WABC and WNBC.

SnellKrell

07-11-09, 12:37 PM

Chacun a son gout!

AloEuro

07-11-09, 01:57 PM

Some of you may have noticed that ch.47(telemundo) automathically transferred to
36-3, thus the 47-1 de facto does not exist.
However, do not get confused with 47-3 I think that is really 55-1, similarly 43-1 seems to be NJpbs 52-1,2(mostly kids stuff)3Audio only.

AloEuro

07-11-09, 02:09 PM

Users of amplified indoor antennas:
It has come to my attention that some well-known models act as their own transmitters as long as they are ON even if not connected to the DTV set and this have caused some channel blocking. This previously unknown consequence of the amp is in addition to the nonlinear distortion generated by the amp.
Unfortunately, these device do not have bypass switch into passive mode...
When I was reading it thoughts came to me about "Terminator" movie series when the machines under electric AC by itself went berserk, maybe you shoul tell us which models do it, on the other hand perhaps not, what if some student not ready for exams took it to class and brought havoc to some of the electronic devices surely they use, ha,ha,ha.

nyctveng

07-11-09, 03:41 PM

It really doesn't matter. I'm not interested in ceremony. I want to record the final high power analog television transmitter shutting down. I also have recorded WWOR & WPIX shutting down as well as WABC and WNBC.

wcbs 6/12 signoff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twv_kuKfsE&feature=PlayList&p=4114E1D17E44F321&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=75

wcbs nightlite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3X6WWeH1rQ&feature=related

seamus21514

07-11-09, 04:03 PM

I noticed WNYE was airing a simulcast of 25-1 on 25-2 on my TV...it could have been a mess-up on my end, but it's certaintly strange. They should put France 24 on one of the subchannels.

TSS_Killer

07-11-09, 06:01 PM

I know this is not exactly going to be on topic, but has anyone noticed that some of the old analog UHF channels have been transformed into a "worse-than-cable-access" network with very low budget programming? I just did some investigation and I probably saw the worst program in broadcast tv history...what's even worse is their ident. It's a guy holding up a camera to a white art card with 4 former callsigns on it written in marker. It's really bad.

seamus21514

07-11-09, 07:25 PM

It could be a pirate broadcast...what channel number?

TSS_Killer

07-11-09, 07:30 PM

Check channels 25 and 34 on analog...there are two more, but I can't remember them right now.

seamus21514

07-11-09, 07:42 PM

Not getting anything here in Staten Island, it must be unlicensed and low power.

Trip in VA

07-11-09, 07:47 PM

It'd be one thing if channels 26 (WNXY-LP), 32 (WXNY-LP), and 35 (WNYX-LP) were showing it. Those are LPTV analog stations that are all owned by the same group.

34 should be WPXO-LD, a digital. 25 was (is?) WNYE's nightlight, and will eventually be WASA-LD, also a digital.

If there's anything else, it's probably a pirate. What call signs does it show?

- Trip

TSS_Killer

07-11-09, 08:28 PM

Confirmed: According to this guy's twitter account, he broadcasts on Channels 6, 26, 32, and 35.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrYUS3E1sTo <--- definitely a pirate. This is his ident.

mikepier

07-11-09, 09:29 PM

Are there any stations that broadcast in 480i widescreen? I see a lot of programming on WLIW21 and other channels and subchannels that are letterboxed 4:3, and was just curious if they can't do HD,why not at least broadcast in a 480i 16:9 format. Is it technically possible? I know FOX used to do it years ago.

dagger666

07-11-09, 09:38 PM

Funny but the only time i was able to pick up channel 11 was during the Mets game which makes me wonder of the Mets are paying 11 to boost the power during their games.

Trip in VA

07-11-09, 09:40 PM

Confirmed: According to this guy's twitter account, he broadcasts on Channels 6, 26, 32, and 35.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrYUS3E1sTo <--- definitely a pirate. This is his ident.

Definitely NOT a pirate. Please read my last post where I give the call signs of three of them. (The fourth, WNYZ-LD 6, is running a digital signal with analog audio.)

- Trip

TSS_Killer

07-11-09, 09:45 PM

By the quality of programming on those channels, it might as well be a Pirate TV station. But anyway...shows what I know.

jpru34

07-12-09, 10:05 AM

I believe channels 2 and 4 cut their power at 12:15 am this morning. Can anyone confirm?

reddice

07-12-09, 10:09 AM

I been gone for a week. I can get channel 11 yesterday. It is weak in the low 50's to high 40's but it is working. Channel 36 I could not get anything yesterday. Are they at low power. I have not tried it today. I will let you know later.

dvdchance

07-12-09, 10:09 AM

SnellKrell

07-12-09, 10:17 AM

I don't know specifically about early this morning, but a tremendous amount of work is and will be done on the ESB.

There's a lot of now unused hardware (antennas) on the masts and the building that have to be removed.

Once things have been cleared out, some stations will be moving to better real estate locations on the ESB to improve their signals.

For example, WWOR (38) has filed with the Commission its plan to move further up on the antenna mast - 1440' - near the top - and the current estimate to have everything completed is - First Quarter 2011!

mikepier

07-12-09, 10:45 AM

I believe 4.2 WNBC nonstop does.

No, they broadcast in 480i 4:3, with most of their shows letterboxed.

nordloewelabs

07-12-09, 12:32 PM

For example, WWOR (38) has filed with the Commission its plan to move further up on the antenna mast - 1440' - near the top - and the current estimate to have everything completed is - First Quarter 2011!

how higher on the mast are they moving? will that be 10, 20, 30 feet higher than current spot? you know what? we are STILL living the DTV transition...

SnellKrell

07-12-09, 12:50 PM

how higher on the mast are they moving? will that be 10, 20, 30 feet higher than current spot? you know what? we are STILL living the DTV transition...

It will be 138' higher than the current antenna.

Mr.H

07-12-09, 06:32 PM

Are there any stations that broadcast in 480i widescreen? ...

Here in New Hampshire "NHPTV explore" (11-3) is 480i 16:9, so yes it is technically possible. Many years ago the Boston FOX station was broadcasting 480p, can't remember now if it was 4:3, or 16:9, but the PQ was vastly better than 480i.

SubaruB4

07-12-09, 08:57 PM

I guess you guys know now that someone uploaded the WCBS signoff on youtube

SubaruB4

07-12-09, 08:58 PM

I believe channels 2 and 4 cut their power at 12:15 am this morning. Can anyone confirm?

I don't think 4 was still running WCBS should of been the last station to finally sign off with the nightlight.

SnellKrell

07-12-09, 09:04 PM

I think we're confusing digital with analogue!

Nightlight only pertains to a station's analogue signal, and yes, WCBS is the last nightlight station to sign-off.

raj2001

07-12-09, 09:20 PM

34 should be WPXO-LD, a digital. 25 was (is?) WNYE's nightlight, and will eventually be WASA-LD, also a digital.

If there's anything else, it's probably a pirate. What call signs does it show?

- Trip

WASA is in Port Jervis, NY which is more than 50 miles from NYC (it's actually up where I live).

WASA can do digital on ch 25 if it wanted to right now (barring any FCC action of course) with no ill effects, as W36AZ does on ch 36 (co ch with WNJU-DT).

Trip in VA

07-12-09, 09:21 PM

WASA is in Port Jervis, NY which is more than 50 miles from NYC (it's actually up where I live).

Future WASA-LD: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1306175.html

- Trip

n2ubp

07-13-09, 07:19 AM

I'm receiving analog on 60 and 64 in Middletown, NY. Seems to be home shopping network.

reddice

07-13-09, 12:12 PM

I thought everything above channel 51 had to be vacated then why is those analogs still on?

speedlaw

07-13-09, 12:37 PM

ProjectSHO89

07-13-09, 01:20 PM

I thought everything above channel 51 had to be vacated then why is those analogs still on?

They have different rules. Only the full-powered stations were affected by the just-concluded transition.

Eadwig

07-13-09, 01:54 PM

Interesting. This morning OTA CBS 2.1 is about twice signal strength since transition.:)

Other stations remain as/was for signal.

I had the opposite happen this morning. I couldn't get 2.1, which is usually my strongest signal, but I was able to get WNJU 36.3 and WMBC(rf18). According to my TVFool results 36.3 should be one of my strongest signals, but I only get it occasionally and I have never gotten WMBC at all before.

By this afternoon WCBS was back to normal and WNJU and WMBC are gone again.

Michael

SnellKrell

07-13-09, 02:11 PM

Interesting. This morning OTA CBS 2.1 is about twice signal strength since transition.:)

Other stations remain as/was for signal.

Now, if they'd only fix the TV Guide Onscreen part of the signal !:(

I believe what you're experiencing are the wanings and waxings of digital reception.

Channel 33 from the ESB has not increased its power.

What WCBS has done, on 7/1, the station applied to the FCC for a construction permit to allow it to install a translator station on Channel 22 located on WLIW's tower in Plainview, Long Island.

This directional, 11.5kW facility is to aid reception on Long Island and southern Connecticut. The contour for the translator's coverage in Connecticut has its signal covering Port Chester (NY) to the west -
Westport to the east - and Stamford to the north.

I haven't seen anything mentioning the Commission's approval and WCBS lighting up this new translator.

reddice

07-13-09, 02:45 PM

They have different rules. Only the full-powered stations were affected by the just-concluded transition.

But how are these wireless and emergency services suppose to broadcast if analog stations which are low power are still on there?

reddice

07-13-09, 02:46 PM

I am getting channel 36 which is my strongest channel back to normal again. Channel 11 is still very weak.

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 02:48 PM

But how are these wireless and emergency companies suppose to broadcast if analog stations which are low power are still on there?

Those companies give those stations a 30 day notice (I think it's 30 days, not sure) to vacate. After the 30 days, the LPTV station must be off that channel.

- Trip

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 11:10 PM

Is anyone seeing WNYX-LD 35 on the air? They filed paperwork with the FCC indicating it should be on the air digitally...

- Trip

2VW

07-14-09, 02:41 AM

For anyone showing Telemundo on 36-3 it's time for another re-scan:)

SnellKrell

07-14-09, 07:00 AM

Is anyone seeing WNYX-LD 35 on the air? They filed paperwork with the FCC indicating it should be on the air digitally...

- Trip

Receiving the station only on 35 Analolgue.

35 Digital doesn't register at all on my SNR meter.

reddice

07-14-09, 11:00 AM

Telemundo virtual channel is back on 47.1. I wish they would make up there mind. I am tired of doing rescans.

R.F. Burns

07-14-09, 03:39 PM

Has WABC raised their power? They are far and away the strongest VHF High station with a signal that's about as strong as the all NY UHF stations other than WCBS which is the strongest of all stations at my location, which is 25 miles north of Manhattan. WCBS is 10 bars out of 10. Most other full power NYC stations are 9 bars out of 10. WABC fluctuates between 9 & 10 bars. The TV is a Samsung.

Daniel Perales

07-14-09, 05:37 PM

Telemundo virtual channel is back on 47.1. I wish they would make up there mind. I am tired of doing rescans.

That's the only channel that I can't recieve.:confused:

Danny

reddice

07-14-09, 09:57 PM

Channel 47 is so strong where I am I can peak it at 97%. It is the strongest channel yet I don't understand why so many of you can't get it. At least it is in HD so it is not a complete waste. Just wish I can get all of the local stations as strong as channel 47.

nordloewelabs

07-15-09, 04:19 PM

at which resolution is Channel 7.2 Live Well being aired? 720p or 1080i?

SnellKrell

07-15-09, 04:28 PM

720p - for all ABC owned television properties.

the-sloth

07-15-09, 05:36 PM

SnellKrell

07-15-09, 05:48 PM

I live in Chelsea on the 6th floor of a 6th floor walkup. I have a DB2 mounted on the roof with direct line of sight at ESB. Prior to the transition I could pull in 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25 and 33 all pegged at 100%. After the transition I'm having major issues with 11 & 13. 13 is getting absolutely nothing. 11 is acting really odd.... it's really spotty and makes lots of drastic jumps in signal strength. I'm using a DirecTV HR20 which has a splitter inside that simulates dual OTA tuners. When I check the signal strengths typically the signal meters for OTA tuner 1 & 2 are the same (since it's just an internal splitter.) But with PIX (11) sometimes it will show one tuner at like 98% and the other at 0%. I thought the problem was a bad splitter that I have in the apartment, but after swapping it out the issue still happened.

I've read that 11 & 7 (possibly 13 too) are sharing a combiner and should give similar signals. If that's true, I just can't figure out why I'm having such a hard time with 11 & 13 but WABC (7) comes in crystal clear and is always pegged at 100% signal strength.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Your DB2 antenna is cut for channels 14-69.

"Ideal for UHF channels 14-69" - This quote is from the antenna manufacturer's Web site. It's not meant to provide reception for Hi-VHF -
in NY, channels 7, 11 and 13. To properly receive those VHF stations you would either need a new combination VHF/UHF antenna to replace you DB2 or add a Hi-VHF antenna connected to your DB2 with a combiner - not a splitter in reverse.

Yes, 7, 11 and 13 are sharing one Hi-VHF Combiner on the ESB. As has been mentioned many times - just because it's the same location and same antenna, you are dealing with different frequencies and transmission power.

Hope this helps.

lexus2108

07-15-09, 06:29 PM

I live in Chelsea on the 6th floor of a 6th floor walkup. I have a DB2 mounted on the roof with direct line of sight at ESB. Prior to the transition I could pull in 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25 and 33 all pegged at 100%. After the transition I'm having major issues with 11 & 13. 13 is getting absolutely nothing. 11 is acting really odd.... it's really spotty and makes lots of drastic jumps in signal strength. I'm using a DirecTV HR20 which has a splitter inside that simulates dual OTA tuners. When I check the signal strengths typically the signal meters for OTA tuner 1 & 2 are the same (since it's just an internal splitter.) But with PIX (11) sometimes it will show one tuner at like 98% and the other at 0%. I thought the problem was a bad splitter that I have in the apartment, but after swapping it out the issue still happened.

I've read that 11 & 7 (possibly 13 too) are sharing a combiner and should give similar signals. If that's true, I just can't figure out why I'm having such a hard time with 11 & 13 but WABC (7) comes in crystal clear and is always pegged at 100% signal strength.

Anyone have any suggestions?

EDIT: I have 2 HR20 units, an H20 and two HDTVs with built in tuners and they all behave the same way.

The Clearstream 2 does VHF/UHF the VHF needs to be close under 10 miles away. But the UHF does much farther. When I tried it at my aunt it did both VHF /UHF very well and strong signal. 7 miles away from ESB. So you might want to try it.