Located in Hillsborough in Central New Jersey, was enjoying a show on WHYY 12.1 at 10:30PM this evening. Signal suddenly drops from normal moderate strength to next to nothing. Did an EZ scan on my Zenith DTT901 converter, and what shows up for first time:

WTNH ch 8.1 (RF 10)
WLIW ch 21.1
WSAH 43.1 (RF 42)
WLNY 55.1 (RF 47)
WFTY 67.1 (RF 23)

These are located in eastern LI and southern CT, some almost 100 miles away. All very strong signals.

But didn't bother to get involved in any of the shows, no idea how long tropo will last.

Frank
WA2ISK

I found an additional weirdity last night - I got very strong signals from hi-VHF here in central Long Island: 13 (8 bars), 11 (6 bars), 10/8, (3 bars), and 7 (7 bars), all with a simple channel 13 folded dipole. However, on all these stations, I got severe breakup - I was watching 13 from 8 PM until I gave up at 11:30. Sometimes it got so bad that the sound was missing 50% of the time. I assume that this is due to the tropospheric conditions, but how can the problems be avoided in the future? I am seriously considering getting Fios, but Verizon won't supply the TV component to my location.

Mike

AT 10:00 tonite , I noticed CBS coming in very weak. It's usually a solid signal for me.
Anyone else have issues?

Yes, last night was the worst ever reception. CBS hardly came in. NJB which normally measures 90% was down to about 66%.

Was that due to work on the antennas/transmitters or atmospheric conditions?

Where can you find current conditions and forecasts for weather systems that interfere with radio signals? I'm experiencing low signal integrity tonight too.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

His map shows a strong duct opening up around 7PM last night. Also explains why WCBS would go down - there's an RF 33 in Connecticut as well.

I can pick up 13 with no problems it seams but 7 and 11 are real trouble. 7 is pixiled like crazy and 11 is hit or miss. Can't these people get their act together and see it would make more sense to move back to UHF.

People on this forum have a lot of expertise and can give you good advice but they can't help you and others who post and don't tell us where you are located. Notice how I have indicated where I am at. Others have given me good advice for my reception issues as they can see where in the area I am located.

I have looked at these maps and have yet to figure out how meaningful they are.

1. I have yet to figure out what color or lack of color means there will be good reception. Why couldn't it be identified as simply reception quality from 1-10 with 10 being super? I find what this guy has done is not User friendly and very confusing.

2. When someone puts a chart/map together that is supposed to be used for TV reception and about 50% of the map is showing reception in the ocean....well I am really turned off...I mean how many people are 100 miles out in the ocean trying to pick up CBS. I suspect this is for boats with radios? We need something focused on TV reception on land and NJ, NY and Conn.

I found an additional weirdity last night - I got very strong signals from hi-VHF here in central Long Island: 13 (8 bars), 11 (6 bars), 10/8, (3 bars), and 7 (7 bars), all with a simple channel 13 folded dipole. However, on all these stations, I got severe breakup - I was watching 13 from 8 PM until I gave up at 11:30. Sometimes it got so bad that the sound was missing 50% of the time. I assume that this is due to the tropospheric conditions, but how can the problems be avoided in the future? I am seriously considering getting Fios, but Verizon won't supply the TV component to my location.

Mike

The bad news- nothing the stations can do about tropospheric conditions.
The good news- this is more common in the summer, not the winter.
Solutions- turn off the tv and enjoy the summer evening, or read a book, or pay for cable; & hopefully the cable company isn't getting their signal off the air also.

Frank
WA2ISK

I have looked at these maps and have yet to figure out how meaningful they are.

1. I have yet to figure out what color or lack of color means there will be good reception. Why couldn't it be identified as simply reception quality from 1-10 with 10 being super? I find what this guy has done is not User friendly and very confusing.

The index is across the top of the page - Ranging from grey (no chance of tropo) to pink. (extremely good tropo conditions)

2. When someone puts a chart/map together that is supposed to be used for TV reception and about 50% of the map is showing reception in the ocean....well I am really turned off...I mean how many people are 100 miles out in the ocean trying to pick up CBS. Too funny Len!:D I suspect this is for boats with radios? We need something focused on TV reception on land and NJ, NY and Conn.

I suppose since the maps cover the entire eastern seaboard it had to be that large. (They go pretty far into the west too, maybe to give you an overall picture of the distances that you'll be able to grab.)

BTW, how's the reception? Did you bother to do any experimentation with that old antenna?

And I bet that DVR is a blast! :cool:

Solutions- turn off the tv and enjoy the summer evening, or read a book, or pay for cable; & hopefully the cable company isn't getting their signal off the air also.

lots of the programming is also available to watch online... some shows on www.Hulu.com (http://www.Hulu.com) *are* in Hi-Def. PBS also has LOTS of shows (full ep's) on www.PBS.org/video (http://www.pbs.org/video).

FrankH3rd's advice to go outside or read a book is a good one! i cant put a Dish on my window because it faces the courtyard (a communal area) and i have no right to put one on the roof. FiOS is not yet in my area, so i read at night... c'est la vie.

sure as hell i'm not going back to the over-compressed, over-channel'ed and over-priced life of cable subscriber. :)

Thanks for the reply.

Even your explanantion is too technical. Just tell me this. What do the colors or lack of colors mean? Does no color mean we should get super reception? Then moving from the left as the colors move left to right does that mean the worst reception will be the color to the far right? Or is it the exact opposite? You see this is not really explained right and if one goes by the adjectives used then it is very confusing unless you have been given a lesson on tropo.

As to your other points. I am enjoying my DVR PAL and as of yet have not tried to record as I have not needed to. I suppose I should just to see if the device is working or a clunker as some have reported.

I don't see TV GUide with my Guide program so I guess where I am in NJ I only received PSIP.

As to reception I am receiving 2.1, 4.1, 5.1 and 7.1 just fine. These are the channels I like to watch most of the time. Can't get 9.1 , 11.1 and 13.1 except with breakups that make them unviewable. 25.1, 31.1, 50.1 and the Spanish language channels come in OK too.

Oddly as well as 7.1 I can get 58.1 which is also high VHF just fine with a little pixilation with my CM 4228 UHF antenna. So I can get 2 VHF stations 7 and 8 but not 11 and 13. And why I can't get 9.1 is anybody's guess.

I have not noticed any real atmospheric issues from day to day so the trophoshere maps don't seem to be useful for me. If I could undertand the map system used I possibly could check it more often. I think the guy who put this together could have made it easier to interpret so that someone as brain dead as me could follow it.

You're quite welcome.
My understanding of tropospheric reception, or skip, is that the signal bounces between the ground and the atmosphere, or more accurately the ionosphere.

When the ionosphere is lower due to atmospheric conditions and lack of sunlight signals travel further in the horizontal as opposed to bouncing high into the vertical and running out of gas, so to speak, in the atmosphere.

As I said, toward the left (grey) is no chance, and as you go to the right (towards the pink) the chance of tropo increases.

So to equate this to your situation, I would think you would get ch 11, 13 & probably 9 on "better" tropo nights. (When the map is showing colors toward the pink end covering the area between you and the transmitter.) So long as the reason you're not getting them in the first place is due to no LOS & a low power transmission, and not some other anomaly.

On the other hand you could see worse reception if a distant station is being picked up with tropo and creating co-channel interference. Kind of a two edged sword, huh?

The best way to check this out would be to look at your TVFool and see if you can scan and pick up some distant stations way down the list that are in your aim, on good tropo nights. (Without co-channel interference, of course.)

Or I could be completely wrong... :eek:

So....does this equate to if it is cloudy, humid, rainy etc reception should be better and if the weather is great with no clouds with low humidity the reception should be worse?

Then all I have to do is check the weather, look outside etc?

Anyway I have found that with rain, snow and 100% humidity I have had great reception and on days that there are no clouds and low humidity I have had bad reception....but sometimes vice versa too.

So I am convinced that there are other things coming into play...like how Jupiter lines up with Mars...

So I am convinced that there are other things coming into play...like how Jupiter lines up with Mars... EXACTLY!

As I understand it, cloudy conditions with high humidity will carry a signal better/farther. Once it is actually raining/snowing however I would expect it to be refracted/dispersed by the moisture directly in the air, causing the signal to travel less.

But again, I'm no expert here and I really may have it all wrong...

E-skip is reflection off the atmosphere. It impacts lower frequencies (usually channels 2-6) and can carry signals 500-1500 miles.

Tropospheric ducting affects the whole band. It is caused by a temperature inversion (layer of warm air trapped under a layer of cooler air) that creates a "duct" which carries signals further than they would normally go. Record distance is 800-ish miles, but the best I've ever done is about 400 miles.

- Trip

And so I stand corrected!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_ducting

Never saw this before, why is it happening?

WNYE (RF24), normally strong and steady channel, unwatchable video & audio this evening, on both Zenith DTT901 converter and PC Hauppauge HVR950.

Zenith signal strength very strong.
HVR950 using TSReader Lite software; signal locked 97% (26.250dbm), but massive continuity and TEI errors.

Anyone know what this means? Cause?

Located in Hillsborough NJ, 40miles SW of NYC.

Frank
WA2ISK

FrankH3rd:

I'm curious what stations you're seeing these days on your HVR950 with TSReader. I found a post of yours from before the transition, but I didn't spot one with post-transition reception.

- Trip

As to your other points. I am enjoying my DVR PAL and as of yet have not tried to record as I have not needed to. I suppose I should just to see if the device is working or a clunker as some have reported.

I don't see TV GUide with my Guide program so I guess where I am in NJ I only received PSIP.

As to reception I am receiving 2.1, 4.1, 5.1 and 7.1 just fine. These are the channels I like to watch most of the time. Can't get 9.1 , 11.1 and 13.1 except with breakups that make them unviewable. 25.1, 31.1, 50.1 and the Spanish language channels come in OK too.

Oddly as well as 7.1 I can get 58.1 which is also high VHF just fine with a little pixilation with my CM 4228 UHF antenna. So I can get 2 VHF stations 7 and 8 but not 11 and 13. And why I can't get 9.1 is anybody's guess.

I have not noticed any real atmospheric issues from day to day so the trophoshere maps don't seem to be useful for me. If I could undertand the map system used I possibly could check it more often. I think the guy who put this together could have made it easier to interpret so that someone as brain dead as me could follow it.

LenL,

I'm also seriously debating getting a DVDPal DVR. From what I've read, CBS2 is the NY areas TVGOS station for NY: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

What other comments can you make of the unit? Did you buy it from Dish or another source? How long did it take to ship? Is the Pal's tuner better tyhen the one in your TV?

Thanks and sorry to stray off topic this post.

FrankH3rd:

I'm curious what stations you're seeing these days on your HVR950 with TSReader. I found a post of yours from before the transition, but I didn't spot one with post-transition reception.

- Trip
Trip

The HVR950 is connected to PC on first floor of my house, connected to one of two suburban antennas in attic; antenna is split to HVR, Magnavox TB100MN9 and Zenith DTT901. They all reliably receive the following channels;

NYC- 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25, 31, 58 (NJN), 63 (Signal locked typically upper 70's to lower 90's for UHF, 95 to 100 for VHF)
Philly- 3, 6, 12 (signal locked upper 90's to 100 for CH6, 60's & 70's for Ch 12; 60's & 70's for Ch 3 RF26)

Frank
WA2ISK

As you probably know there is an AVS forum devoted to this DVR with tons of info.

For the sake of not getting too involved with DVR off topic comments let me simply say I got mine from Solid Signal for $245 plus another $9 or so for slow ground shipping. It arrived in about 5 days. I am happy with it.

I think it does a better job than my Sharp 45" LCD TV holding the OTA signals. I like the features that I did not have with my TV such as a program guide and the ability to record HD. As I have stated before I have not tried to record yet. I just don't see anything on TV these days to record. Check out the forum and you will see a lot of people with issues that vary from minor to serious and people who are happy with the unit.

Although CBS has the TVGOS data I have not picked it up and only see PSIP in the guide. It may be I need to do something in the setup to get TVGOS. Something for me to look into when I have some time.

zip: 10940 , Middletown, NY, Orange County

antennas, 91-XG UHF and Winegard YA-1713 VHF high.
RG6 coax, CM7777 preamp, CM rotor, CM 8 port distribution amp.
DirectTV H20 DBS and OTA receiver and CM coupon converter box.
Todays results - I can receive every ESB sourced channel, VHF high or UHF, in the high 70 to 80 percent range (as shown on the H20) except for WABC 7, 7 is not even a blip on the radar. What am I or 7 doing wrong.

I don't know if you're doing anything wrong but Channel 7 is - the power is too low.

The station has requested a [power increase, which I'm told on good authority - if and when its approved - is really not the amount needed and will help some but not enough viewers with problems.

Complain to WABC and the FCC.

The more noise we make complaining the better chance we have a something substantive being done.

The thing is WABC is my strongest VHF channel. WNET is not that strong and WPIX is very weak which is the station I have the most trouble with.

Since 6/12 I've noticed that WNET channel 13-1 takes the longest of any station for my Zenith 901 box to lock on to - about 5 seconds - other stations lock in within one second.

Anyone with similar observations?

LenL,

I'm also seriously debating getting a DVDPal DVR. From what I've read, CBS2 is the NY areas TVGOS station for NY: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

What other comments can you make of the unit? Did you buy it from Dish or another source? How long did it take to ship? Is the Pal's tuner better tyhen the one in your TV?

Thanks and sorry to stray off topic this post.

Lttle OT: I know DTVPal DVR gives you that standalone feeling. and is much more compact. However, for the same price you can build a low power dual core AMD based (with 780G on board video) HTPC within $300. Apart from OTA recording with much better guide data than TVGOS.. HTPC gives you lot of flexibility. In fact you can use the Hulu app/Zinc/boxee and numerous other media aggregators and use your remote to control all these applications from your coutch. Its much much powerful in terms of feature. The power usage by the HTPC when its asleep is approx 10W. When its awake.. the power usage is typically 100W. Head over to the HTPC forum to get ideas on the latest build suggestions. As for me.. I am using AMD BE2400 with a Gigabyte GA-MA78S2H motherboard and a Avermedia low profile OTA TV tuner card (which also have QAM support.. but I don't have cable). I am using
Windows Vista Premium as my OS.
Rough price for different components:
Mobo + CPU = $120
Memory = $20
DVD-RW drive = $25
PCI-X ATSC/QAM HDTV Tuner (whitebox) = $35
Hard Disk = $60
HTPC Case = $50
Media Center Remote = $20

Total = $325 (assuming you already have a license for Vista or want to use Linux)

You can also download Windows 7 RC for free and use it till Jun 2010.. and it comes with all the features for Media center.

Since 6/12 I've noticed that WNET channel 13-1 takes the longest of any station for my Zenith 901 box to lock on to - about 5 seconds - other stations lock in within one second.

Anyone with similar observations?

My observation exactly on my Zenith DTT901 converter, but maybe three seconds not five. But only for 13.1; 13.2 and 13.3 lock in as quick as any other channel. WNET signal is very strong here, so it can't be signal strength that is the cause of the delay

Frank
WA2ISK

Update: I can receive WABC 7 with a 50+ signal on my H20 DirecTV receiver if I point the rotor SSW, towards Sussex NJ, rather than SSE, towards the Empire State Building. I do loose all other ESB channels except 7 when I point the rotor SSW. Weird.



zip: 10940 , Middletown, NY, Orange County

antennas, 91-XG UHF and Winegard YA-1713 VHF high.
RG6 coax, CM7777 preamp, CM rotor, CM 8 port distribution amp.
DirectTV H20 DBS and OTA receiver and CM coupon converter box.
Todays results - I can receive every ESB sourced channel, VHF high or UHF, in the high 70 to 80 percent range (as shown on the H20) except for WABC 7, 7 is not even a blip on the radar. What am I or 7 doing wrong.

At noon today I can not receive WABC 7 no matter what I do. Think I will get a life and go out today, no rain, clear skies. As said before WABC 7 has issues they have to correct to retain OTA market share.

Steve
N2UBP

Update: I can receive WABC 7 with a 50+ signal on my H20 DirecTV receiver if I point the rotor SSW, towards Sussex NJ, rather than SSE, towards the Empire State Building. I do loose all other ESB channels except 7 when I point the rotor SSW. Weird.

I can now get 11 since i turned my monoprice antenna directly north and keep it the same spot i had it on the wall, not the strongest single but can watch. 7 is still a no go which is strange since 7,11,13 all come from the same place. 5 still remains the strongest station with a reading of over 70+ but since every TV measures the single strength differently does these numbers really matter to anyone else.

Earlier this morning was the worst reception I've had for 7 since the transition.

It's almost 9 a.m. and the signal is a bit better than earlier - but 7 remains a big problem.

Let's hope the power boost will help some of us - whenever the Commission gives the OK!

I had this lying around and tried it in indoors on my second floor with a CM 7777 preamp by a window and I could only get 2.1, 4.1 and 5.1 in the low 60's and upper 50's.

So yesterday I put is outside on the ground and checked the signals. For the major NY stations here is the signal strength:

2.1 81-86
4.1 69-80
5.1 67-71
9.1 63-68

Keep in mind this is bascially on the ground way below my CM 4228 antenna and the reception is as good if not better for the UHF stations. I am waiting on an antenna mast to mount it about 30 feet up and see what happens with the signals

I can't get 7.1, 11.1, 13.1 or 58.1 as this is a true UHF antenna. But oddly I can get analog 60 and 64 with a lot of static.

try moving it farther away from the desktop and laptop, then rotate it a little. you might be able to get 13.1. computers seem to interfere with VHF stations. in my home, they certainly do!

Yesterday channel 11 is back to a black screen no signal two red bars. I can only get it in the 20's. Pathetic since you can't get there analog station no more and most people who rely on digital only reception ain't going be able to watch it.

I just canceled my order for a CM2016 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM2016). I think its multi-directionality on Hi-VHF would not solve the multi-path problems many of us have with 7, 11 and 13. worse yet, its gain is too low on this band (between 0 and 2dB). the CM2016 looks like a fine small UHF antenna though.

I've narrowed my choices to 3 antennas. they are all for outdoor use but i'll place them in my living room mounted to a tripod. one of them is VHF-only, but since UHF is so forgiving in my area (10 miles north of ESB), I might do ok with a VHF-only antenna. so what you guys think of those beasts? my objective is to filter multi-path, which I'm guessing is the major problem with Hi-VHF channels. which of these should be more directional?

RCA ANT751 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANT751&xzoom=Large#xview) (cant find specs anywhere)
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13&xzoom=Large#xview) (VHF-only, gain 6.9 dB on VHF)
AntennaCraft HBU22 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HBU22&xzoom=Large#xview) (gain 4.1 dB on VHF)

I am tired of trying different indoor antennas. I tried a bunch and the reception is about the same. Stations I can't get I still can't get no matter what indoor antenna I have used. I use to use the RadioShack UFO but it stunk. It has more multipath problems. I used the Terk HDTVi which is a great antenna but still could not get channel 11. I am now using the Terk HDTVa but reception wise it is exactly the same at the HDTVi. Still can't get channel 11 reliable and the amplifier does absolutly nothing in improving the weak stations. I know a outdoor antenna would be good but I can't put one in. I also should not need one since I am so close to the ESB only 4 miles that I have trouble with certain stations. Now that they are all digital certain stations like channel 11 are worse than the pre-transition. I am glad I can get channel 13 but some days and times it can be weak.

I had this lying around and tried it in indoors on my second floor with a CM 7777 preamp by a window and I could only get 2.1, 4.1 and 5.1 in the low 60's and upper 50's.

So yesterday I put is outside on the ground and checked the signals. For the major NY stations here is the signal strength:

2.1 81-86
4.1 69-80
5.1 67-71
9.1 63-68

Keep in mind this is bascially on the ground way below my CM 4228 antenna and the reception is as good if not better for the UHF stations. I am waiting on an antenna mast to mount it about 30 feet up and see what happens with the signals

I can't get 7.1, 11.1, 13.1 or 58.1 as this is a true UHF antenna. But oddly I can get analog 60 and 64 with a lot of static.

You may be picking up signal thru ground reflections under the trees - something that i assume TVFool doesn't take into account. (Trees, that is.) I'd be surprised if that antenna outperforms the 4228, given roughly the same height and position... am curious to see how it does though. About the only thing I can see it has going for it is the corner reflector, possibly giving it a higher front to back ratio, and a narrower beamwidth. This may make it less susceptible to multipath that I'd guess you're getting with all your trees. (It's a thought given what is said about the 91XG, but who knows.)

I do know that when I tested my homemade G-H on a stake next to my driveway I got some promising results. It was pointing across my front lawn and down my block on a diagonal toward the ESB. The center of the antenna was at 4ft. So with that position I was under the trees, had lawn and then pavement for 200-250 yards, maybe more. But I fear that once I get it up over the roof pointing virtually into an oak on my prop at 75ft I may well see something worse. TVFool shows only about 0.7-1.5dB difference between 4' and 25' AGL, depending on the channel. (WNYW actually show 0.2dB worse at 25ft up. :confused:)

I gotta get my stuff together before it's yet another moth of DISH @ $73... but I want to build an mclapp 4-Bay bowtie to see if that works better also, just have too many things going on right now.

Anyone having trouble getting WNBC in tonight? I get absolutely no signal at all when I've gotten fine pre and post transition up until tonight. (Can't get it after midnight with the maintenance on the ESB as well but that doesn't count)

I can get WNBC but it's weak in the lower 50's.

Channel 13 the last couple of days has been stronger. Getting in the high 60's. Channel 11 is weak and breaking up in the 40's. Channel 7 is my most stable VHF channel in the high 60's to low 70's.

Me getting any of the VHF channels out here is zilch in my case. I was able to get WNBC briefly in one spot with just one bar. (Don't know the max bars/signal Samsung HDTVs have since I haven't had a full strength signal on the meter yet.) Did WNBC lower the power or what?

Me getting any of the VHF channels out here is zilch in my case. I was able to get WNBC briefly in one spot with just one bar. (Don't know the max bars/signal Samsung HDTVs have since I haven't had a full strength signal on the meter yet.) Did WNBC lower the power or what?

You do know WNBC is actually RF ch28 - UHF, yes?
Only WABC 7, CW 11 & WNET 13 are VHF in NYC.

EDIT: I think my buddies Samsung maxed out at like 9 bars.

akahooper: Yes full aware that's on 28. WCBS is on 33, WWOR is on 38, WNYW is on 44. WNJN is on 51 and so on. Was just responding to reddice about 7,11 and 13 as to why I couldn't comment on reception since I wasn't getting them up here.

Your homemade antenna looks cool. Awhile back I toyed with the idea but went the path of buying one for my mom (CM4228) and since it worked well for her I got one for my house too.

As soon as the mast arrives we will find out if raising my second antenna makes for better or worse reception. Actually it is not going to be up as high as the CM4228. I'm afraid of heights and that was professionally mounted. This second one will be about 5 to 10' feet lower on the side of the chimeny and not sit above the chimney.

Say where are you located?

Turned on the TV today and some new channels showed up! 49.1, 55.1 and 67.1 (along with some subchannels)

What is going on?

Turned on the TV today and some new channels showed up! 49.1, 55.1 and 67.1 (along with some subchannels)

What is going on?

I'm getting those too here in upper Westchester, but no picture.

Are you getting a picture on any of those channels?

Yes picture and sound.

Yes picture and sound.

both pic and sound?
arent there logos or PSIP titles?

Yes picture and sound.

OK, then what are they? Have you seen any station IDs? Are they copies of other channels?

Thanks!

Turned on the TV today and some new channels showed up! 49.1, 55.1 and 67.1 (along with some subchannels) What is going on?

49-1 Should be WEDW (PBS) (Transmitting on 49 from Bridgeport, CT)
55-1 Should be WLNY (Ind.) (Transmitting on 47 from Riverhead, LI)
67-1 Should be WFTY (Telefutura) (Transmitting on 23 from Smithtown, LI).

Your homemade antenna looks cool. Awhile back I toyed with the idea but went the path of buying one for my mom (CM4228) and since it worked well for her I got one for my house too.

As soon as the mast arrives we will find out if raising my second antenna makes for better or worse reception. Actually it is not going to be up as high as the CM4228. I'm afraid of heights and that was professionally mounted. This second one will be about 5 to 10' feet lower on the side of the chimeny and not sit above the chimney.

Say where are you located?

Thanks Len. Ideally the reflector should be split, with a space down the middle. But I just threw it together with what I had lying around to do some testing. The G-H really won't work for me as a final install though - it's got 11-16dB negative gain down in hi-VHF. That's why I want to try an mclapp 4-Bay bowtie, at least that's got some positive gain in hi-VHF. I'm out in Shirley, LI so deep down I think I'm just kidding myself - I'll probably end up needing a 91-XG and a second VHF antenna. :( But I figure it can't hurt to try...

Did you play with your TVFool, as far as height goes? It may not make much of a difference at all, especially since you're coming off the side of the house and you're not dealing with any roof reflections.

Turned on the TV today and some new channels showed up! 49.1, 55.1 and 67.1 (along with some subchannels)

What is going on?

I'm getting those too here in upper Westchester, but no picture.

Are you getting a picture on any of those channels?

I can't believe you guys in Westchester and NJ are getting WNYW & WFTY - their transmitters are only a few miles north of me if I remember - very impressive!

I have not found it very reliable for me. It was showing 11.1 as one of my strongest stations and it is quite the opposite! So I'm not inclined to use it for anything but just some basic stuff.

49-1 Should be WEDW (PBS) (Transmitting on 49 from Bridgeport, CT)
55-1 Should be WLNY (Ind.) (Transmitting on 47 from Riverhead, LI)
67-1 Should be WFTY (Telefutura) (Transmitting on 23 from Smithtown, LI).

is this a fluke caused by atmospheric conditions or have those stations boosted transmission power?
LenL, can you confirm whether the new stations you've found are the same ones listed above?

I can't believe you guys in Westchester and NJ are getting WNYW & WFTY - their transmitters are only a few miles north of me if I remember - very impressive!

Location, location, location! :) I'm not getting a picture, though. I can't get WLIW from here without a rotor. I get WNJB from New Brunswick very well. The New Jersey stations come in really well when pointed at NYC, but CT and LI would require some rotation and a little bit of luck!

WNYW looks bad here during the day with an attic mounted antenna, but pounds in with one mounted higher and outdoors.

I have not found it very reliable for me. It was showing 11.1 as one of my strongest stations and it is quite the opposite! So I'm not inclined to use it for anything but just some basic stuff.

LenL: I wouldn't be so quick to blame TVFool - as I remember you're aim points you right thru a bunch of trees, you may be getting screwed by multipath. (Which from what I've read the 4228 isn't very good at eliminating.) Does you reception improve on 11 in the winter, after the leaves are gone?




Originally Posted by johnosolis
"49-1 Should be WEDW (PBS) (Transmitting on 49 from Bridgeport, CT)
55-1 Should be WLNY (Ind.) (Transmitting on 47 from Riverhead, LI)
67-1 Should be WFTY (Telefutura) (Transmitting on 23 from Smithtown, LI)."

is this a fluke caused by atmospheric conditions or have those stations boosted transmission power?
LenL, can you confirm whether the new stations you've found are the same ones listed above?

As I recall, WNYW's transmitter isn't actually in Riverhead, and WFTY's isn't in Smithtown - as per antannapoint.com. (And confirmed while doing some testing at a friends house a few miles north of me - by both aim and signal strength.) Could this just be where the offices are located? Not sure about WEDW.

As I recall, WNYW's transmitter isn't actually in Riverhead,

Isn't WNYW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNYW) Fox Network (Channel 5.1) whose transmitter is located at the Empire State Building?

Yes it is!

I meant WLNY ch55

I had a brain fart - hey it happens!

I meant WLNY ch55

Not getting that here in Westchester while pointed toward Empire.

Same problem as WLIW, which might be solvable for me with a rotor.

The transmitter for WFTY ("Smithtown") is in Middle Island and that for WLNY ("Riverhead") in between Ridge and Middle Island. These are both about halfway between Smithtown and Riverhead. WEDW is in Brodgeport, CT. I live in Stony Brook, which is beteween Smithtown and Middle Island, so finding the transmitters was problematic until I used the mapping option in TVFool.

Mike

The transmitter for WFTY ("Smithtown") is in Middle Island and that for WLNY ("Riverhead") in between Ridge and Middle Island. These are both about halfway between Smithtown and Riverhead. WEDW is in Brodgeport, CT. I live in Stony Brook, which is beteween Smithtown and Middle Island, so finding the transmitters was problematic until I used the mapping option in TVFool.

Mike

That sounds dead-on to me, from the aim we had at my friends. It was freaking him out too, he kept pointing NE and saying but Riverhead's that way!

Not getting that here in Westchester while pointed toward Empire.

Same problem as WLIW, which might be solvable for me with a rotor.

Yea, they gotta be what 60, 70... 80 degrees off aim for you?
A rotor would do it, but WLNY 55 isn't worth the effort, for sure. WLIW has some good stuff though. That's Garden City, you sure you can't compromise your aim and pick it up?

Yea, they gotta be what 60, 70... 80 degrees off aim for you?
A rotor would do it, but WLNY 55 isn't worth the effort, for sure. WLIW has some good stuff though. That's Garden City, you sure you can't compromise your aim and pick it up?

I also have FiOS TV and get both WLIW and WLNY there.

I really like WLIW. I think it's the best PBS station in the area.

I could try pointing toward it, but it would mess up my reception of the three VHF stations (I have a VHF/UHF/FM antenna,) I would surely lose WNJB, etc.

Those of us who are used to cable/satellite/FiOS are so jaded; we expect to get everything available. That's why a rotor would be ultimate.

For now, I'm just working on improving my reception of WNYW.

Turned on the TV today and some new channels showed up! 49.1, 55.1 and 67.1 (along with some subchannels)

What is going on?

CPTV WEDW DT49 Bridgeport (Trumbull), CT. has been in operation since February 18, 2009 at 41 kW ERP. An ERP boost to 91 kW occured on June 13, 2009.

Cool if you get CPTV HD on WEDW DT49-1 & "Create" on WEDW D49-2. There would be a CPTV logo on 49-1 and a "Create" logo on 49-2.

Those 3 stations were gone by the afternoon. Somehow my 2 antennas were picking them up and then they were no longer receivable. I wonder what connection if any they have with each other?

This would appear, based on your posts, to be propagation enhanced by tropospheric ducting. Just as the boundary between water and air will bend light waves, the boundary between a hot and a cold air mass will bend (not reflect) electromagnetic waves. So, likely in this case, signal that would have shot straight out to space was bent to follow Earth's surface instead. Your antenna was in a position to catch enough energy to transfer a receivable signal to your set.

is this a fluke caused by atmospheric conditions or have those stations boosted transmission power?
LenL, can you confirm whether the new stations you've found are the same ones listed above?

These stations can be received at unusual distances due to tropospheric ducting. I live near Toms River NJ and have been watching several Long Island stations recently. The flamethrower which now occupies R.F. channel 47 has tied the record for the highest signal quality level on my Digitalstream converter.

The ducting forecast chart link has been posted here a number of times. It isn't aimed at consumer type television viewers but still works for those who are interested enough to do a little reading.

The next few days should bring some signal enhancement. As mentioned before, this is a double edged sword as the ducted signals can reduce the SNR of some regular signals in consumer grade receivers.

So I got an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 to use in combination with my DB2 that has been rock solid for me for years. I have my DB2 tightly tucked on the side of a chimney on the rooftop of my apt building. The Y5-7-13 was much larger than I anticipated and much larger than I likely need since I'm less than a mile from ESB with line of sight. Plus it really was an eyesore and I didn't want to do that to our neighbors. So I took a hacksaw and cut a couple feet off the front part of the boom and reinserted the cap. I tested it by holding it and it still locks onto a great signal so now I just need to get it mounted.

I would really like to keep the install as neat as possible so the landlord doesn't get upset. So in a perfect world I would like to keep the DB2 and the Y5-7-13 on the same 5ft mast. From the research I've done it seems that people recommend anywhere between 3.5ft to 6ft between antennas but it seems that it varies based on the type of antennas you're combining.

I'm already pulling in 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 25, 31, 41 and 68 with the DB2 without any problems... so the goal is to add this Y5-7-13 and the combiner I bought and lock onto 11 & 13 without degrading the signals for what I already receive.

1) Is it likely that I could get away with mounting these two on the same 5ft mast 2-3ft apart?

2) If mounted on the same mast, does it matter which goes on top? If so, which?

3) Any other ideas and/or suggestions? The landlord won't allow me to drill into anything so I'm using a wrap-around style chimney mount for the single 5ft mast that I have my DB2 mounted with. So that's what I currently have to play with.

I would really like to keep the install as neat as possible so the landlord doesn't get upset. So in a perfect world I would like to keep the DB2 and the Y5-7-13 on the same 5ft mast. From the research I've done it seems that people recommend anywhere between 3.5ft to 6ft between antennas but it seems that it varies based on the type of antennas you're combining.

I'm already pulling in 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 25, 31, 41 and 68 with the DB2 without any problems... so the goal is to add this Y5-7-13 and the combiner I bought and lock onto 11 & 13 without degrading the signals for what I already receive.

1) Is it likely that I could get away with mounting these two on the same 5ft mast 2-3ft apart?

2) If mounted on the same mast, does it matter which goes on top? If so, which?

3) Any other ideas and/or suggestions? The landlord won't allow me to drill into anything so I'm using a wrap-around style chimney mount for the single 5ft mast that I have my DB2 mounted with. So that's what I currently have to play with.

Depending on the combiner you lose 3.5 dB or more from each antenna. That may not be a problem if you have strong signals.
Mechanically, you want the bigger antenna below but minimizing multipath, the usual killer of DTV reception, may dictate the final up/down decision.

Depending on the combiner you lose 3.5 dB or more from each antenna. That may not be a problem if you have strong signals.
Mechanically, you want the bigger antenna below but minimizing multipath, the usual killer of DTV reception, may dictate the final up/down decision.

First off, you should be using a UVSJ signal combiner:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ
This will take the VHF from one antenna and combine it with the UHF from the other - by filtering, and with very little loss. (Only 0.5dB) Don't use a regular splitter backwards as this will not only incur greater loss but will allow the antennas to interfere with each other from out of band signal reception. (Especially at your distance from the transmitters!)

As to the separation, from what I've read you don't want them closer than 1/2 wavelength of the lower freq antenna. (A full wave is preferred if possible, 1/4 wave can be done but performance may suffer.) So you're looking at ch 7 on the hi-VHF antenna - or 34" apart @ 1/2 wave. Not sure if it makes any difference who's on top. But I would guess the VHF, just to minimize reflections off the roof...

P.S. And you whacked the VHF antenna in half with a hacksaw? :eek:

What a difference a few degrees change in antenna position can make. I have turned my monoprice antenna about 15 degrees that the silver bar in the middle points northeast i think away from the city and now i get 21,11,13,7. 11,21 come in between 16-18 on the meter but are mostly stable. 13 comes in at 22 and stable but the problem is still 7. It comes in at the same 16-18 as the other stations but has pixel bars and this morning i could not pick it up at all.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3daead025dbc91b6

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=2

First off, you should be using a UVSJ signal combiner:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ
This will take the VHF from one antenna and combine it with the UHF from the other - by filtering, and with very little loss. (Only 0.5dB) Don't use a regular splitter backwards as this will not only incur greater loss but will allow the antennas to interfere with each other from out of band signal reception. (Especially at your distance from the transmitters!)

As to the separation, from what I've read you don't want them closer than 1/2 wavelength of the lower freq antenna. (A full wave is preferred if possible, 1/4 wave can be done but performance may suffer.) So you're looking at ch 7 on the hi-VHF antenna - or 34" apart @ 1/2 wave. Not sure if it makes any difference who's on top. But I would guess the VHF, just to minimize reflections off the roof...

P.S. And you whacked the VHF antenna in half with a hacksaw? :eek:

Yeah, I ordered that Pico combiner and that's what I'm using. I had better luck with the VHF antenna on top. I could only get about 24-28" of distance between the two (from the top of the DB2 reflector to the bottom of the Y5-7-13.) I'm seeing rock solid performance on 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 31, 41 & 68. 13 & 25 are hit or miss. Both of which I had a 100% lock on before the transition. I know 13 has always been a pain for most people and since moving down to VHF it seems worse for most people and honestly I'm ok with not getting that channel.

Is it possible that 25 is spotty because it's a low UHF channel (24) and with the addition of the VHF antenna and the combiner it's getting multipath and/or interference?

Either way I've decided to just suck it up and deal with spotty reception on 13 & 25 because I got a really good lock on 11 (which was what I really needed) and I didn't loose my strong signal that I already had on 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 31, 41 or 68.

Yeah... My wife was laughing at me for taking the hack saw to the Y5-7-13, but if she saw what it looked like from our terrace she would have agreed that it wasn't acceptable. So my thinking was "oh well, it's a $20 antenna and if it doesn't work I'm fine with that because I couldn't stand looking at it up there if I didn't give it a trim." Basically I cut it about 6" in front of the dipole (I believe that's what it's called) that is closest to the mounting point (towards the front of the antenna.)

If it's not raining tonight I'll get up on the roof and take a picture. I'm sure it's not optimal under normal circumstances but given my location, it seems sufficient. Heck, if I understood antennas better I'm sure I could have added some hardware to my DB2 to make it more high-band VHF friendly. I just don't know enough about frequency/wavelengths/bands/etc to go that route.

What a difference a few degrees change in antenna position can make. I have turned my monoprice antenna about 15 degrees [...]

pointing the antenna a few degrees up or down, can also make a big difference. also, moving the antenna up or down on the mast by a few inches could also make a big difference. i have a sweet spot in my apartment that is about 6 inches off my kitchen floor. any higher or lower and i lose ch-13.

Yeah, I ordered that Pico combiner and that's what I'm using. I had better luck with the VHF antenna on top. I could only get about 24-28" of distance between the two (from the top of the DB2 reflector to the bottom of the Y5-7-13.) I'm seeing rock solid performance on 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 31, 41 & 68. 13 & 25 are hit or miss. Both of which I had a 100% lock on before the transition. I know 13 has always been a pain for most people and since moving down to VHF it seems worse for most people and honestly I'm ok with not getting that channel.

Is it possible that 25 is spotty because it's a low UHF channel (24) and with the addition of the VHF antenna and the combiner it's getting multipath and/or interference?

Either way I've decided to just suck it up and deal with spotty reception on 13 & 25 because I got a really good lock on 11 (which was what I really needed) and I didn't loose my strong signal that I already had on 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 31, 41 or 68.

Yeah... My wife was laughing at me for taking the hack saw to the Y5-7-13, but if she saw what it looked like from our terrace she would have agreed that it wasn't acceptable. So my thinking was "oh well, it's a $20 antenna and if it doesn't work I'm fine with that because I couldn't stand looking at it up there if I didn't give it a trim." Basically I cut it about 6" in front of the dipole (I believe that's what it's called) that is closest to the mounting point (towards the front of the antenna.)

If it's not raining tonight I'll get up on the roof and take a picture. I'm sure it's not optimal under normal circumstances but given my location, it seems sufficient. Heck, if I understood antennas better I'm sure I could have added some hardware to my DB2 to make it more high-band VHF friendly. I just don't know enough about frequency/wavelengths/bands/etc to go that route.

As to channel 25, WNYE, it is bit lower power then the rest of the ESB located stations (it is on the mast on the Conde Nast Building) and its' broadcast antenna is a bit lower to the ground then the higher powered stations.

Hey everybody, I'm new to the forum. I was hoping you guys could help my parents find the right antenna (if there is an antenna for them). You guys seem to be the people to ask!

OK, my parents live 21 miles away from WMBC, they want the Korean broadcast. However, they live right next to a 15 story apartment building. I don't think the owner of my parent's building allows them to put up an outdoor antenna! How crazy is that?

Anyway, is there an antenna that will get the job done? It seems like nothing is guaranteed, I mean 21 miles away and a 15 story building blocking it. What do you guys suggest?

Antennaweb gives me the following info:

WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON, NJ 305° Compass Heading
20.8 Miles 18 RF

I tried my Aunt's TERK indoor antenna, I actually got ZERO channels. I had another Samsung antenna (with a power chord) and I got about 10 channels, most of the channels we got were within 10-15 miles of broadcast towers.

Is there any hope to get WMBC? It would allow my parents to save $60 off digital cable because that's really the only channel they want to see in the first place.

Please help! I thank you all in advance!

welcome to the forum! post your folk's TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29) info if possible.

the Terk HDTVa and the RadioShack UFO are among the best indoor antennas. if you got no channel whatsoever with the Terk, you did something wrong. try it again.

since your parents only care about one UHF station, maybe you can buy them the Winegard HD-1080p (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-1080), or the AntennasDirect DB2 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=AD-DB2), which are small enough for use indoors. if your folks have a higher tolerance to eye-sore, get a DB4 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=AD-DB4), instead. note that these antennas are for UHF (RF channels 14 thru 51) so dont expect to receive any of the 3 Hi-VHF channels broadcasting in NYC (ch-7, ch-11 and ch-13) with these antennas....especially indoors!!!

according to the law, your folks can place antennas on a balcony if said balcony faces the street. buildings can, however, prohibit them from going on the roof or placing objects on communal areas like courtyards.

you must vacate one weekend to try and find the "sweet spot" for whichever antenna you buy. get a 25 ft RG6 cable too because you might discover that the "sweet spot" is far from the TV. such sweet spot could be near the floor, near the ceiling, facing a wall or facing the street. one never knows. you will need:

1) patience.
2) diligence.
3) luck.

if your parents decide they do want to receive Hi-VHF channels (7, 11, 13), you'll need MUCH MORE of the 3 aforementioned virtues. you'll also need:

4) a directional VHF+UHF antenna.

Hey everybody, I'm new to the forum. I was hoping you guys could help my parents find the right antenna (if there is an antenna for them). You guys seem to be the people to ask!

OK, my parents live 21 miles away from WMBC, they want the Korean broadcast. However, they live right next to a 15 story apartment building. I don't think the owner of my parent's building allows them to put up an outdoor antenna! How crazy is that?

Anyway, is there an antenna that will get the job done? It seems like nothing is guaranteed, I mean 21 miles away and a 15 story building blocking it. What do you guys suggest?

Antennaweb gives me the following info:

WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON, NJ 305° Compass Heading
20.8 Miles 18 RF

I tried my Aunt's TERK indoor antenna, I actually got ZERO channels. I had another Samsung antenna (with a power chord) and I got about 10 channels, most of the channels we got were within 10-15 miles of broadcast towers.

Is there any hope to get WMBC? It would allow my parents to save $60 off digital cable because that's really the only channel they want to see in the first place.

Please help! I thank you all in advance!

WMBC has applied to the FCC to add additional transmitters using the same frequency - Channel 18.

If approved, one would be located near Little Falls, NJ and will have a directional signal - West.

The second would be located on the Conde Nast Building - 4 Times Square and directionally sending its signal - East.

Don't know when the Commission will act on this.

Why don't you call the station and speak to the head engineer.

The second would be located on the Conde Nast Building - 4 Times Square and directionally sending its signal - East.

I hope, it it does get approved, that there is some bleed into Harlem. WMBC and recently, WNJN have been the two signals that vary on a daily basis.

Still no signal from WNJU since the digital transition.

WMBC has applied to the FCC to add additional transmitters using the same frequency - Channel 18.

how do you find out this kind of thing? i've been to the FCC website but it's so cryptic. for example, i'd like to know if WSAH has applied for power increase or extra antennas. what would be the procedure? would you be kind enough to explain?

how do you find out this kind of thing? i've been to the FCC website but it's so cryptic. for example, i'd like to know if WSAH has applied for power increase or extra antennas. what would be the procedure? would you be kind enough to explain?

Here's the most extraordinary site with everything you ever wanted to know
about television stations.

Have a ball!

http://www.rabbitears.info/index.php

I have a rooftop mounted DB4 which does great for local digital stations, all except WLIW.

Here is my tvfool data

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3daeadf9d5a3d62a

Rotating the DB4 to 84 degrees didn't really improve the situation. AntennaWeb recommended a large directional UHF antenna so I bought a RadioShack U-75R and mounted it on a chimney mast at about 47", directly aimed at Plainview LI. I am sure there are a few buildings in the line of sight. A small improvement in signal quality but with plenty of careful fine tuning still unwatchable.

Would I benefit from an amplifier of any sort, or is a more enormous antenna the only way to compensate for the weakness of WLIW's signal?

Thanks if any can offer advice. It's a good channel, worth the trouble if it can be done.

Yeah... My wife was laughing at me for taking the hack saw to the Y5-7-13, but if she saw what it looked like from our terrace she would have agreed that it wasn't acceptable. So my thinking was "oh well, it's a $20 antenna and if it doesn't work I'm fine with that because I couldn't stand looking at it up there if I didn't give it a trim." Basically I cut it about 6" in front of the dipole (I believe that's what it's called) that is closest to the mounting point (towards the front of the antenna.)

If it's not raining tonight I'll get up on the roof and take a picture. I'm sure it's not optimal under normal circumstances but given my location, it seems sufficient. Heck, if I understood antennas better I'm sure I could have added some hardware to my DB2 to make it more high-band VHF friendly. I just don't know enough about frequency/wavelengths/bands/etc to go that route.

Here's a quick picture I snapped of the post-hacksaw Y5-7-13.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8917/img0890tw.jpg

Now I lost channel 11 completely. Getting it in the 20's. I can't believe that it has been over a month since the transition and it is still weak. I though getting it fair the last couple of weeks they were boosting the power but I guess it is back to the black low signal screen.

Channel 13 has been stronger but channel 7 is a bit weaker but at least you can watch them.

Still no signal from WNJU since the digital transition.

Your joking right. I still can't believe so many of you can't get WNJU. It is so strong where I live. I should be getting all of the real NYC local stations as strong as I get them.

I have a rooftop mounted DB4 which does great for local digital stations, all except WLIW.

Here is my tvfool data

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3daeadf9d5a3d62a

Rotating the DB4 to 84 degrees didn't really improve the situation. AntennaWeb recommended a large directional UHF antenna so I bought a RadioShack U-75R and mounted it on a chimney mast at about 47", directly aimed at Plainview LI. I am sure there are a few buildings in the line of sight. A small improvement in signal quality but with plenty of careful fine tuning still unwatchable.

Would I benefit from an amplifier of any sort, or is a more enormous antenna the only way to compensate for the weakness of WLIW's signal?

Thanks if any can offer advice. It's a good channel, worth the trouble if it can be done.

The general consensus on the forums is that Radio Shack products are, for the most part, well junk...

You may want to try the 43XG, it probably has more gain than the RS U-75R.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TD-43XG#MORE
http://www.buy.com/prod/antennas-direct-43xg-uni-directional-antenna/q/loc/111/205520611.html
I am kind of surprised you couldn't pull it in with the DB8, judging by your TVFool. Do you have any unusual obstructions to deal with? You aren't trying to combing the RS with the DB8 are you?

13 & 25 are hit or miss. Both of which I had a 100% lock on before the transition. I know 13 has always been a pain for most people and since moving down to VHF it seems worse for most people and honestly I'm ok with not getting that channel.

[snip]

Yeah... My wife was laughing at me for taking the hack saw to the Y5-7-13, but if she saw what it looked like from our terrace she would have agreed that it wasn't acceptable. So my thinking was "oh well, it's a $20 antenna and if it doesn't work I'm fine with that because I couldn't stand looking at it up there if I didn't give it a trim." Basically I cut it about 6" in front of the dipole (I believe that's what it's called) that is closest to the mounting point (towards the front of the antenna.)

You cut off the part of the antenna that was most effective for 13!

Trip in VA put me on to some new and interesting information.

Applications have been filed with the Commission to test further DTS (fill-in transmitters using the same frequency at the main facility) in NYC.

Channels 28, 31, 33 and 40 will participate.

The plan is to have two additional transmitters -

The first located on ESB - 100kW - Directional Pattern - Northwest

The second in Brooklyn - on Carlton Avenue off of Atlantic - 10kW - Directional Pattern -almost due South.

Hope this helps.

Unfortunately, when Channel 36 added its DTS transmitter on 4TS,
I totally lost reception!

Go figure!

You cut off the part of the antenna that was most effective for 13!

Ha! Really? I did signal strength tests before and after and it didn't make much difference. The signal for WNET wasn't any better prior to my modification. :)

The general consensus on the forums is that Radio Shack products are, for the most part, well junk...

You may want to try the 43XG, it probably has more gain than the RS U-75R.

I am kind of surprised you couldn't pull it in with the DB8, judging by your TVFool. Do you have any unusual obstructions to deal with? You aren't trying to combing the RS with the DB8 are you?

Thanks akhooper. It's a DB4, not combined, and I was also surprised I couldn't pick up WLIW. My building is 4 stories and most structures around me are 3-5 stories.

With the DB4 signal strength is highly variable - will jump all over the place constantly, no signal quality. With the RS yagi there is more stability, but quality is stuck at around 60%. People in antenna retail must spend half their time now processing RMAs :)

Given the strength of all my other local signals, can I "isolate" WLIW with a directional and its own tuner? Or should I start over with an even higher-gain multi-directional? Or should I give up...

Yea it's probably a push to hope for WLIW with a DB4. Thing is the NYC's are so strong you're even getting the VHF's thru your DB4, on aim? After looking at your TVFool again here's what I would've tried.

Ideally out the gate, a Winegard HD7694P (VHF/UHF combo) antenna with a Winegard HDP269 amp. (Very resistant to overload.) Aim the antenna at WLIW @ 74deg, then your main stations will be 77deg's off aim. I would think you would have a shot with this combo.

Working with what you've already got, try hooking up just the U-75R with a Radio Shack 15-2505 10dB amp on the WLIW aim and see if this pulls it in. (Easy to pick one up, and easy to return.) You should definitely still be able to see CBS, NBC, FOX, etc with this antenna and aim, so if you're getting nothing then you may well be overloaded and need the better antenna, (7694/43XG) 269 amp, or both. An HDP269 at the antenna would still be best though.

If you get results with the RS U-75R and 2505 you can hook up the DB4 on aim for NYC and combine with an A/B switch from RS. (With a cable from each antenna to the A/B at your TV.) I doubt you'll see any VHF from the U-75R off aim.

Applications have been filed with the Commission to test further DTS (fill-in transmitters using the same frequency at the main facility) in NYC.

see? this is the info that i need. i'd like to know how to look for this kind of info myself, but everytime i go to the FCC or RabbitEars websites i feel utterly lost. the data is there, but i dont know where.

could anyone explain to me how to search RabbitEars for:

1) DTS applications (and grants)
2) Power Boost applications (and grants)

this way i could do a weekly check on the NYC stations myself.

see? this is the info that i need. i'd like to know how to look for this kind of info myself, but everytime i go to the FCC or RabbitEars websites i feel utterly lost. the data is there, but i dont know where.

could anyone explain to me how to search RabbitEars for:

1) DTS applications (and grants)
2) Power Boost applications (and grants)

this way i could do a weekly check on the NYC stations myself.

I thought I made the site very straight forward.

1. Go here: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=1
2. Click the call letters of the station you want to see.
3. Click "Technical Data and Screencaps"
4. Read resulting data. (DD is a DTS.)

If 4 poses a problem, chances are that if you hover over the part you're confused about, you'll get a little tip about what it stands for.

- Trip

Hey everybody, I'm new to the forum. I was hoping you guys could help my parents find the right antenna (if there is an antenna for them). You guys seem to be the people to ask!

OK, my parents live 21 miles away from WMBC, they want the Korean broadcast. However, they live right next to a 15 story apartment building. I don't think the owner of my parent's building allows them to put up an outdoor antenna! How crazy is that?

Is there any hope to get WMBC? It would allow my parents to save $60 off digital cable because that's really the only channel they want to see in the first place.

Please help! I thank you all in advance!

WMBC is one of the easy channels to catch. Use an antenna like DB2 or Eagle Aspen UHF antenna to get the channels. DON'T use any amplifiers in between. Of course you need to point towards Newton NJ. Depending on the location your parents live, you may also receive the New York UHF stations because of the wider beamwidth of the antenna. When I am really really bored.. I watch WMBC.. the korean soaps comes withenglish subtitles and they are pretty entertaining.. of course the girls are pretty too. WMBC is pretty easy to lock in.. I think there are 5 sub channels.. of which 3 are korean I think.

thanks for enlightening me, Trip. it's A LOT easier to read the data from RabbitEars than from the FCC website! huge difference! i have a few questions:


----------------------------------------------------------
WNBC
----------------------------------------------------------
DT-CP MOD:
Channel 28 http://www.rabbitears.info/external.png (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1238319.html) Contour Range 50 Miles
1302' 200.2 kW ND (H) 1295' AGL; 1° Elec Beam Tilt
N 40° 44' 54" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_44_54_N_73_59_10_W_type:landmark_region:US) (40.748), W 73° 59' 10" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_44_54_N_73_59_10_W_type:landmark_region:US) (-73.986) (S (http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=channel&latitude=40.748&longitude=-73.986))

DS-APP:
Channel 28 http://www.rabbitears.info/external.png (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS1249143.html) Contour Range 45 Miles 1023'
200.2 kW ND (E) 1017' AGL; 1° Elec Beam Tilt
N 40° 44' 54" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_44_54_N_73_59_10_W_type:landmark_region:US) (40.748), W 73° 59' 10" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_44_54_N_73_59_10_W_type:landmark_region:US) (-73.986) (S (http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=channel&latitude=40.748&longitude=-73.986))

DT-APP:
Channel 28 http://www.rabbitears.info/external.png (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1250271.html) Contour Range 53 Miles 1703'
164 kW ND (E) 1726' AGL; 1° Elec Beam Tilt
N 40° 42' 46.4" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_42_46.4_N_74_0_48.8_W_type:landmark_region:US) (40.713), W 74° 0' 48.8" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_42_46.4_N_74_0_48.8_W_type:landmark_region:US) (-74.014) (S (http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=channel&latitude=40.713&longitude=-74.014))

DX-CP:
Channel 28 http://www.rabbitears.info/external.png (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DX1313730.html) Contour Range 42 Miles
732' 290 kW DA (H) 323' AGL; 0.5° Elec Beam Tilt
N 40° 48' 8" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_48_8_N_74_14_48_W_type:landmark_region:US) (40.802), W 74° 14' 48" (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=PlanetEye&params=40_48_8_N_74_14_48_W_type:landmark_region:US) (-74.247) (S (http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=channel&latitude=40.802&longitude=-74.247))
----------------------------------------------------------

the records on the top are the oldest, right? that would mean the DX-CP is the last one. do you plan to add dates to the records in the future?

i see there was an application (DT-APP) for a transmitter on the coordinates 40.713, -74.014, which is in downtown Manhattan. that means WNBC plans a transmitter on the new tower, right?

once permissions are granted, do they appear as "granted" on RabbitEars too? when the stations make the changes effective, are they indicated in any way?

thanks in advance! :)

In some cases. I can't get the whole country because there's just too many, but either the oldest is at the top or the one most likely to be on the air. In this case, it's both, and it's the one on the air.

The DT-APP is a placeholder for Freedom Tower, should that ever get finished.

A granted Application becomes a Construction Permit. DS applications, for whatever reason, used to be listed as DS-STA when granted but that seems to have stopped for some reason and are just DS-APP forever. Blame the FCC database for that one.

- Trip

SnellKrell mentioned Channels 28, 31, 33 and 40 as participants of the DTS tests, however, checking RabbitEars, i can only see a DD record for ch-31. updates coming to the site?

Only WPXN and WXTV filed yesterday, but the WXTV paperwork is corrupt. The WPXN paperwork makes reference to the other three.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=778107&formid=301&q_num=5570

- Trip

Yea it's probably a push to hope for WLIW with a DB4. Thing is the NYC's are so strong you're even getting the VHF's thru your DB4, on aim? After looking at your TVFool again here's what I would've tried.

Ideally out the gate, a Winegard HD7694P (VHF/UHF combo) antenna with a Winegard HDP269 amp. (Very resistant to overload.) Aim the antenna at WLIW @ 74deg, then your main stations will be 77deg's off aim. I would think you would have a shot with this combo.

Working with what you've already got, try hooking up just the U-75R with a Radio Shack 15-2505 10dB amp on the WLIW aim and see if this pulls it in. (Easy to pick one up, and easy to return.) You should definitely still be able to see CBS, NBC, FOX, etc with this antenna and aim, so if you're getting nothing then you may well be overloaded and need the better antenna, (7694/43XG) 269 amp, or both. An HDP269 at the antenna would still be best though.

If you get results with the RS U-75R and 2505 you can hook up the DB4 on aim for NYC and combine with an A/B switch from RS. (With a cable from each antenna to the A/B at your TV.) I doubt you'll see any VHF from the U-75R off aim.

Thanks again for the advice with my next step akahooper! Will give the RS amp a shot first - like you said, easy to pickup and return.

Channel 13 has been stronger but channel 7 is a bit weaker but at least you can watch them.

I can get 13 now but channel 7 is lost and it's a major network station. How can 13,7,11 be broadcast from the same location as some have said on here but not all three can be picked up. Lately all the station have had some problems even over 30+ so like i guessed everything isn't sorted out yet. Aren't a few stations building new faculties which aren't going to be finished until the end of the year?

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=778107&formid=301&q_num=5570

very interesting document! it's remarkable that a second transmitter operating at a mere 10kW could make any difference on the UHF band, given that its channels operate at powers on a much greater scale.

please, correct me if i'm wrong, this DTS setup will not benefit me, who live 10 miles north of ESB, right? it seems to me that the extra transmitter is aimed at helping reception in Blooklyn.

i wish WLIW-21 and WLNY-47 setup a DTS site on 4TS. they are both broadcasting from Long Island. the "PBS Wolrd" sub-channel on 21.3 has risen my curiosity. i wouldnt mind the 480i signal a bit!

Only WPXN and WXTV filed yesterday, but the WXTV paperwork is corrupt. The WPXN paperwork makes reference to the other three.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=778107&formid=301&q_num=5570

- Trip

Read that application and weep. This is another example of NY politicians wasting our tax money through earmarks. This time 30 million to experiment with DTS. Ask yourselves why have WABC, WNYW, WWOR, WNET and WPXN decided to not participate. Perhaps they don't want to waste our tax money.

please, correct me if i'm wrong, this DTS setup will not benefit me, who live 10 miles north of ESB, right? it seems to me that the extra transmitter is aimed at helping reception in Blooklyn.

Correct.

i wish WLIW-21 and WLNY-47 setup a DTS site on 4TS. they are both broadcasting from Long Island. the "PBS Wolrd" sub-channel on 21.3 has risen my curiosity. i wouldnt mind the 480i signal a bit!

WLIW should just move their primary transmitter to Freedom Tower when it's done. There's no engineering reason they couldn't and that signal would likely still cover their current coverage area. I'm a big fan of PBS World as my local PBS station carries it, and last time I was in NJ, I missed being able to watch it.

- Trip

WLIW should just move their primary transmitter to Freedom Tower when it's done.

i prefer to count on a DTS transmitter.... that tower is taking forever. i'm sure it took less time to erect the Great Pyramid of Giza.

I don't see the point in spending the money on a DTS if they can just move the main signal to a more centrally-located tower site after waiting a few years. I'm somewhat distrustful of most DTS implementations due to power levels that I consider to be just way too high for this type of setup.

I'd be worried about self-interference. I think WNJU is already suffering from it, though I'm really not certain.

- Trip

I don't see the point in spending the money on a DTS if they can just move the main signal to a more centrally-located tower site after waiting a few years. I'm somewhat distrustful of most DTS implementations due to power levels that I consider to be just way too high for this type of setup.

I'd be worried about self-interference. I think WNJU is already suffering from it, though I'm really not certain.

- Trip
I fully agree. DTS should only be used where there's no overlap of signals. Shadowed areas for examples. I also think the Freedom Tower will never happen for broadcasting. It's too expensive

Even if Freedom Tower doesn't happen, they could stick it on ESB. Either way, if WLIW is going to be the only place to get Create and World, then it should be available to the larger OTA audience.

- Trip

[...] if they can just move the main signal to a more centrally-located tower site after waiting a few years.

a few years? i doubt that thing will be up before 2020.

I'm somewhat distrustful of most DTS implementations due to power levels that I consider to be just way too high for this type of setup.there's a lot of controversy on the efficiency of DTS. i can get WNJU without a problem, but SnellKrell seems to have lost it. if my memory serves me well, WNJB-8 will be using DTS from 4TS in October so that means there will be a total of 6 stations employing DTS soon. once all 6 are up and running, we'll know for sure how good or detrimental DTS really is. New Yorkers will be the cobaias.

if not DTS, what else could be done to improve signal reception, in your opinion? it seems that increasing transmission power is a bigger taboo for the FCC....

a few years? i doubt that thing will be up before 2020.

As I said, ESB then. Either way, a DTS is a poor answer for WLIW.

there's a lot of controversy on the efficiency of DTS. i can get WNJU without a problem, but SnellKrell seems to have lost it.

I never used to have a problem receiving WNJU when I visited my relatives in New Jersey. Last month, I couldn't get it to lock.

if my memory serves me well, WNJB-8 will be using DTS from 4TS in October so that means there will be a total of 6 stations employing DTS soon.

No, they're going to be moving to 4TS. No DTS involved.

once all 6 are up and running, we'll know for sure how good or detrimental DTS really is. New Yorkers will be the cobaias.

I've seen DTS work well and I've seen it work poorly. I've seen more of the latter than the former.

if not DTS, what else could be done to improve signal reception, in your opinion? it seems that increasing transmission power is a bigger taboo for the FCC....

DTS would work with reduced power, but the way the FCC has licensed DTS, I'm still not sure it can do what's needed.

- Trip

WNJB, Channel 8 will be using 4TS as its main transmission point.

And yes, I've completely lost WNJU since the station fired up the DTS on 4TS.

Interestingly, recently, the station shut down its main West Orange transmission and the station came in loud and clear.

A few years ago, in a test, a DTS transmitter for WNJU on the Bloomberg Building boomed in like mad - I can see the side-mounted antenna from my apartment which is only less than 6 blocks away.

As Trip mentioned a while back it seems as if I'm getting too much signal.

As Trip mentioned a while back it seems as if I'm getting too much signal.

wouldnt an attenuator solve the problem?

DTS would work with reduced power, but the way the FCC has licensed DTS, I'm still not sure it can do what's needed.

- Trip

DTS is the ideal "cherry picking" tool, exactly what the FCC is supposed to prohibit. It allows a station to design one or more on-channel DTS stations to provide a strong signal to a small preferred community while causing interference into a much larger area.

It's not too much signal, it's artificial multipath caused by two signals that are too out of sync to decode properly.

- Trip

Read that application and weep. This is another example of NY politicians wasting our tax money through earmarks. This time 30 million to experiment with DTS. Ask yourselves why have WABC, WNYW, WWOR, WNET and WPXN decided to not participate. Perhaps they don't want to waste our tax money.


Well, your anger should be foisted upon both major parties, since the original legislation in the House was bipartisan! Does that mean a pox on both your houses?

The NYC 9/11 Digital Transition Fund was created by Congress to enable New York City area broadcaster to build interim facilities to ensure that the New York Metropolitan area could receive an adequate digital broadcast signal until the Freedom Tower can be completed. Today, it's quite questionable if the majority of broadcasters will ever move to One World Trade Center.

Concerning the amount of money, let's not forget that the auction has raised tens of billions of dollars. Additionally, Congress granted the FCC permission to assess additional fees to help pay for not only the NYC 9/11 program, but
$65 million for low-power stations and translatiors to go digital, help non-commercial stations in their transition, no less the needed funds for first responders' communications.

Your point about why certain stations have chosen not to participate -

First, WPXN is participating and was very involved in the first DTS tests that were conducted August 2-10 and August 22-24, 2007.

You use as examples of lack of interest and not wanting to use the money,
WNYW and WWOR. They did not make any change during the transition - they kept their channel allocations and their positions on the ESB antenna mast.

Next WABC and WNET. Both stations chose to their new VHF channels. True, WNET had to move, channel 61 was out of core. But there wasn't a gun to anyone's head to elect channel 13. If anyone is to blame, it's the station and possibly FCC engineering data, but stations employ their own outside engineering consultants.

This leaves WABC, the bigges offender. WABC had to fight to get digital channel 7 and they're paying the price. The station could very well have stayed on channel 45, but for old time sakes fought for channel 7. This thinking has also taken its toll for ABC's station in Chicago, WLS.

With projected huge costs for building and maintaining a new antenna, a new transmitter and office space at One World Trade Center, I applaud stations trying to find new and economical ways to provide their audience with decent reception - be it DTS or translators.

As I said, ESB then. Either way, a DTS is a poor answer for WLIW.

I never used to have a problem receiving WNJU when I visited my relatives in New Jersey. Last month, I couldn't get it to lock.

No, they're going to be moving to 4TS. No DTS involved.

I've seen DTS work well and I've seen it work poorly. I've seen more of the latter than the former.

DTS would work with reduced power, but the way the FCC has licensed DTS, I'm still not sure it can do what's needed.

- Trip

Could someone explain again what DTS is, and what are the ramifications of using it? Thanks
Mike

Could someone explain again what DTS is, and what are the ramifications of using it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_transmission_system

This leaves WABC, the bigges offender. WABC had to fight to get digital channel 7 and they're paying the price. The station could very well have stayed on channel 45, but for old time sakes fought for channel 7. This thinking has also taken its toll for ABC's station in Chicago, WLS.


So if they made a mistake not staying on 45 as you claim, why don't they join the DTS project to improve their service on ch 7? I think you should check with your sources at WABC.

I have no idea what makes the Mouse House think the way it does.

I scratched my head when the station fought for digital channel 7!

I can surmise that the station hopes that 27kW will do the trick.

A friend of mine an another stations doesn't think it will mean all that much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_transmission_system

Thanks. I read this article, and don't understand how two signals transmitted from different locations at the same frequency don't have alternating constructive and distructive interference resulting in a very irregular transmission pattern.

Thanks. I read this article, and don't understand how two signals transmitted from different locations at the same frequency don't have alternating constructive and distructive interference resulting in a very irregular transmission pattern.

They do have constructive and destructive interference. In theory the equalizer in the Rx would assign one signal, the stronger, as main and the other as multipath or echo to be attenuated. In practice it does not work because all echoes are dynamic and usually change faster than the equalizer's response. Where the two signals have similar amplitudes and are dynamic the equalizer can't tell which is main and which is echo. And so forth and so on...

So if they made a mistake not staying on 45 as you claim, why don't they join the DTS project to improve their service on ch 12?

maybe they have a budget problem. transmitting on ch-7 at 27 kW is likely cheaper than transmitting on ch-45 at 100+ kW. maybe they were cheap and overly-optimistic.

maybe they have a budget problem. transmitting on ch-7 at 27 kW is likely cheaper than transmitting on ch-45 at 100+ kW. maybe they were cheap and overly-optimistic.
My point was--if DTS works, why don't they do DTS on ch 7, not 45.

My point was--if DTS works, why don't they do DTS on ch 7, not 45.

there might be extra costs associated with deploying DTS, after all a second antenna and transmitter are needed. which brings us back to the original point....maybe they have a budget problem. is the congressional fund supposed to subsidize the whole DTS test?

there might be extra costs associated with deploying DTS, after all a second antenna and transmitter are needed. which brings us back to the original point....maybe they have a budget problem. is the congressional fund supposed to subsidize the whole DTS test?

Yes. It pays for all DTS equipment, rents and tests...

I agree that channel 7 should have stayed on RF 45. Although I can get RF 7 reliable my mother can't get it at all on her receiver. Also RF 11 is horrible because most of the time I can't get it at all. The only station I see that improved reception was RF 13 although there is many people who can't get the VHF channels.

I suspect that many (most?) of the decisions to retain VHF channels were based on marketing. WNET is a prime example: their corporate logo and internet identity are all tied to "Thirteen" or "thirteen.org." And virtual channels just confuse people.

Probably many agree with you about 13 and 7 etc..

I disagree because I could not only care less if 13 is also RF 13 but once you have your TV or converter box tune in the stations you pretty much can forget about what the RF station is. I have been messing with this stuff for a year now and I have remembered some of the RF stations go with what station but as time is passing on I am forgetting and really have NO need to know what goes with what. The technology takes care of that for you.

So I think having RF 13 for station 13 is a bunch of bull crap.

Wow!

It looks like I must have stepped on somebody's toes! :eek:

Does anyone know if VCR Plus+ codes still apply?

I recently found a VCR with VCR Plus+ and thought I'd try it out - but I think DTV changed the whole game.

I googled VCR Plus+, I don't see anything saying that VCR Plus+ is dead, I see no VCR Plus+ codes on tvguide.com.

Interestingly, WCBS is now the hardest catch from my apt on the UWS, followed by WNBC. Pre-transition, WCBS was cake. Go figure.

Pre-transition, WCBS was a lost cause. Could barely get it. Now I can get WCBS easy but can't get WPIX.

Channel 47 WNJU I am peaking at 100. How come so many of you can't get it? Are they broadcasting off 4TS, ESB or still in NJ? I think they are still in NJ because I can get that crappy WFME channel peaking at 98.

If RF 28 and 31 really add a fill in antenna for brooklyn that will be great since channel 4 is weak. My mother tries to watch it and gets annoyed when it keeps breaking up.

At this time, WNJU-DT is transmitting from both West Orange, NJ and 4TS - using DTS.

Eventually, it will move its transmission to almost the top of the ESB's antenna mast with
650kW!

I suspect that many (most?) of the decisions to retain VHF channels were based on marketing. WNET is a prime example: their corporate logo and internet identity are all tied to "Thirteen" or "thirteen.org." And virtual channels just confuse people.


in the pre DTV days yes actual channel # WAS your identity. in the dtv world, actual frequency does not matter. CBS is still called ch2 even though its on 33, NBC is still ch4 even though its on 28, etc. virtual channels are not confusing.

They are only confusing if one still believes that the virtual channel has anything to do with antenna requirements. It doesn't.

We could call them A-Z, etc. and it wouldn't matter.

That would explain it. If all the NYC locals broadcasted in West Orange I would be getting excellent reception.

WNJB Channel 8 is now on the air from its NY location. As of this morning I am receiving an excellent signal from WNJB on channel 8 at my location about 25 miles north of midtown Manhattan. WNJM, channel 50 is gone at my location.

Are you sure the station has already moved? I doubt it - the schedule supplied to the FCC calls for October.

More than likely, atmospheric conditions have allowed you to receive WNJB -
not a change in transmission location.

Earlier this morning, I was able for only the second time to receive WLNY - and now it's gone!

Here is my current run down of received stations at my location in southern NY state;

channel signal strength

2 - 10
4 - 8-9
5 - 10
7 - 9-10
9 - 10
11 - 6
13- 6
25 - 10
39 - 0-2
41- 10
47 - 0-3
58- 3-4
63- 2-3
66 - 4

I've watched stations via tropospheric ducting at constant strength for hours on end. It usually fades by 11AM.

It doesn't make any sense that you'd suddenly lose 50 when 58 started coming in, because 50 isn't supposed to be making any changes. What makes more sense is that tropospheric ducting is bringing in another channel 51 signal and interfering with WNJN.

Let us know what it looks like at noon. That'd give a more definitive answer. :)

- Trip

Sorry, my comments were not directed at you but at the people in the industry that made the decisions to make changes to high VHF because they want 13 to be RF 13.

I did not mean to make it sound like I was after you.....I am a long time ex Long Branch resident and love you shore folks!

Does anyone know if VCR Plus+ codes still apply?

I recently found a VCR with VCR Plus+ and thought I'd try it out - but I think DTV changed the whole game.

I googled VCR Plus+, I don't see anything saying that VCR Plus+ is dead, I see no VCR Plus+ codes on tvguide.com.

If I remember, VCR Plus was a quick set-up feature that programmed the unit to turn on and record at the specific time and tune to the specific channel for the duration of the desired program.

As you say, "DTV changed the whole game." A VCR has only an NTSC (analog) tuner, which is now useless...

You will need to just set up a timer program on your VCR for what you want to record, from channel 3 - the feed from your DTV converter box. Then get the DISH DTV PAL+ as this is the only converter box I'm aware of that is capable of doing unassisted timer programs. Very easy to use, just bring up the on-screen pgm guide, go into the future, click on a pgm and follow the prompts for once, every week, etc. The unit then turns on and tunes to the desired channel for the duration of the desired pgm.

Or you could make your life easy and spring for the $250 and get the DISH DTV PAL DVR and toss the VCR altogether - Better picture, (records in full Hi-Def) DD sound, and no tapes to mess with. :)

What I would love to see is a DVR with a burner. As of now to the best of my knowledge the DVR is only good for time shifting and not archiving. A DVR which could also archive programing on a DVD (or some equivilant) would be a great device and that would cause me to throw out my current S-VHS VCR & DVD recorders.

I suspect that many (most?) of the decisions to retain VHF channels were based on marketing. WNET is a prime example: their corporate logo and internet identity are all tied to "Thirteen" or "thirteen.org." And virtual channels just confuse people.

I agree with LenL, nyctveng and Falcon_77.

Choosing the actual RF frequency that is the same as the virtual channel to "maintain corporate image" is just about the lamest excuse ever, considering the "virtual channel" is what everyone's going to remember anyway since this is what you're tuning to.


They are only confusing if one still believes that the virtual channel has anything to do with antenna requirements. It doesn't.

We could call them A-Z, etc. and it wouldn't matter.

Personally I think they should've just dropped the virtual channel# altogether, and just used the stations call letters with the actual RF channel; i.e. WCBS-NY33. This way there would be no confusion about antennas...

What I would love to see is a DVR with a burner. As of now to the best of my knowledge the DVR is only good for time shifting and not archiving. A DVR which could also archive programing on a DVD (or some equivilant) would be a great device and that would cause me to throw out my current S-VHS VCR & DVD recorders.

This is something I would like to see also. I am a long time DISH network customer (over 5 years) with an old 501 DVR receiver. It only has ~35 Hrs of hard drive space (SD only) and when I want to archive something I have to let it play while I record it on my DVD recorder - a PITA. A combined unit would probably be able to do it in the background, and at increased speed, making it much more user friendly.

On the other hand though, I think CD's & DVD's are [to some degree] a dying technology. We now have much more efficient means of digital storage. ~300 Hr DVR's with expansion HDD of ~650 Hrs. Link it to your computer's 1-TB HDD and how could anyone ever fill that up? And everything's at your fingertips at a moments notice...

What I would love to see is a DVR with a burner.

put a TV Tuner card in your computer and you can do whatever you want with the videos you record. if your computer is too far from the TV set, ask a knowledgeable friend to build a cheap $300 PC for you just for this purpose. to make it blend with the living room (in case aesthetics is important for you), ask him to use a short, black and horizontal case. this way the PC will look like a VCR. to control it, you can use a wireless mouse, which is cheap.

i've been using my 2 PCs as a DVRs for 8 years. i dont look back! not only i can save my recordings to disc, but i can also transfer them to my Creative Zen Vision:M and watch them in the subway!

It'sa all well and good to save material on a hard drive but that's not really archiving. What's the typical lifespan of a hard drive, 10 years or maybe 15 at the outside? A DVD or some kind of disc storage has a life far exceeding 20 years or more. I have CD-R's that are very old and still playnig well. It's like acetate tape. It supposedly had a life of 50 years but I have a few acetate reels of tape that are older. I've seen too many hard drive crash and with it take the material stored on it with it. Eventually there willl be a static ram device that will safely store archived material but the size needed to do so on a large scale isn't there yet.

How's WNJB doing?

- Trip

It'sa all well and good to save material on a hard drive but that's not really archiving. What's the typical lifespan of a hard drive, 10 years or maybe 15 at the outside? A DVD or some kind of disc storage has a life far exceeding 20 years or more. I have CD-R's that are very old and still playnig well. It's like acetate tape. It supposedly had a life of 50 years but I have a few acetate reels of tape that are older. I've seen too many hard drive crash and with it take the material stored on it with it. Eventually there willl be a static ram device that will safely store archived material but the size needed to do so on a large scale isn't there yet.

People using PCs as their main hub for home entertainment system is growing specially for those who are dumping cable for on line shows. Isn't the whole idea of Xbox-360 and Playstation 3 to be the main hub, both can pay and record but i still think just playstation can do blue ray.

It'sa all well and good to save material on a hard drive but that's not really archiving. What's the typical lifespan of a hard drive, 10 years or maybe 15 at the outside? A DVD or some kind of disc storage has a life far exceeding 20 years or more. I have CD-R's that are very old and still playnig well. It's like acetate tape. It supposedly had a life of 50 years but I have a few acetate reels of tape that are older. I've seen too many hard drive crash and with it take the material stored on it with it. Eventually there willl be a static ram device that will safely store archived material but the size needed to do so on a large scale isn't there yet.

That may be true for Manufactured or "pressed" CDs/DVDs, but I don't believe the same is true for "Home burned" Cds/DVDs. It has been reported that the dye level on these is not very stable, especially on some of the older ones, so don't plan on your dvds lasting that long. I recently tried to encode some dvds I had recorded only a few years ago to play on my PMP, and had difficulty even reading some of the VOBs on many of them.

It's "New York, NY - OTA."

Shall we get back on subject?

I agree with LenL, nyctveng and Falcon_77.

Choosing the actual RF frequency that is the same as the virtual channel to "maintain corporate image" is just about the lamest excuse ever, considering the "virtual channel" is what everyone's going to remember anyway since this is what you're tuning to.

I never said that I thought that it was a good idea. I was just trying to get into the heads of the decision makers that chose to go back to VHF-hi frequencies.

With hindsight, I'd bet that even those decision makers are thinking that this was a bad idea.

Or maybe they were considering where they'd be on cable and satellite provider's lineups. Considering that, and how few people in the world are trying to use OTA, that may have been their prime motivation.

Sorry, my comments were not directed at you but at the people in the industry that made the decisions to make changes to high VHF because they want 13 to be RF 13.

I considered that after I replied. No matter - no offense taken.

I did not mean to make it sound like I was after you.....I am a long time ex Long Branch resident and love you shore folks!

Aaahhh... so you're a bennie, now? That explains the attitude. ;)

That's not nice.....I grew up in LB and left when I was about 30. I should be grandfathered as a shore resident and not be accused of being a bennie!

I come back in September to have a dog at Maxes, an Italian ice at Strollos and a pizza at Freddies. Spend a few hours on the beach and walk the boardwalk and mabe drive over to Asbury Park to relive the days when a gang of us would go to the fun house, take in some rides, go to a movie and walk the boardwalk. Ah great memories!

Now I wish I had a home there so I could have a clear shot at the ESB! No hills just flat terrain!

I've watched stations via tropospheric ducting at constant strength for hours on end. It usually fades by 11AM.

It doesn't make any sense that you'd suddenly lose 50 when 58 started coming in, because 50 isn't supposed to be making any changes. What makes more sense is that tropospheric ducting is bringing in another channel 51 signal and interfering with WNJN.

Let us know what it looks like at noon. That'd give a more definitive answer. :)

- Trip

I'm 99% sure it's tropo. We had wicked thunderstorms here last night.

How's WNJB doing?

- Trip

OK Sorry I jumped to conclusions because up to this point I hadn't received WNJB at all. I had received Ch's 54 & 48 off the back of my antenna from upstate NY (and they are about 60 miles to the north, north east of my location) but I knew that was due to enhancement. Oh well, live & learn. WNJM is back in the meantime.

That may be true for Manufactured or "pressed" CDs/DVDs, but I don't believe the same is true for "Home burned" Cds/DVDs. It has been reported that the dye level on these is not very stable, especially on some of the older ones, so don't plan on your dvds lasting that long. I recently tried to encode some dvds I had recorded only a few years ago to play on my PMP, and had difficulty even reading some of the VOBs on many of them.

I have CD-r's going back to the late 90's and they play with no problem. My recordable DVD's go back about 8 years and they haven't show any problems either. I suppose much of it depends on the brand of writable material and how they are stored.

Does anyone know if VCR Plus+ codes still apply? ... I see no VCR Plus+ codes on tvguide.com.

They still print the VCRPlus codes in the TV listings of the NY Daily News.

As of this morning, I'm once again receiving Channel 36, WNJU-DT.

I did notice that the station applied for a new, temporary transmission site on the ESB's
Mooring Mast - using the station's old analogue antenna - and putting out a healthy
750kw.

Don't think this has been fired up yet - but, whatever the station has done - don't think it's atmospherics - it's working for me!

I recently saw this article in Broadcasting & Cable... looks like some FCC engineers may be coming to our area.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/316319-FCC_Engineers_To_Take_Closer_Look_At_DTV_Problem_Areas.php

Well, I've lost 36 again!

Obviously, by way of previous experiences, the station must have shut down one of its two DTS transmitters this morning into this afternoon.

DTS - you're killing me!

Channel 36 I also keep losing it. When I can get it is my strongest channel but at times like yesterday I can't get it.

Edit: Right now I am getting it. Peaking it at 90%.

Well, I've lost 36 again!

Obviously, by way of previous experiences, the station must have shut down one of its two DTS transmitters this morning into this afternoon.

DTS - you're killing me!

And by extension, others, myself included, too.

The DT-APP is a placeholder for Freedom Tower, should that ever get finished.



It's not the "Freedom Tower", that name was never official and it will not be sued. The PANYNJ has officially named the building, "1 World Trade Center".

Interestingly, WCBS is now the hardest catch from my apt on the UWS, followed by WNBC. Pre-transition, WCBS was cake. Go figure.

Pre-transition, WCBS was a lost cause. Could barely get it. Now I can get WCBS easy but can't get WPIX.

Move to Astoria, where every station comes in perfectly stable and clear with a strong signal - with merely a set of telescoping rabbit ears that don't even need to be extended. I can have them fully "collapsed" and flat in a "T" shape and still get everything with no issues. I must live in some weird sweet spot for signals from the ESB.

nycla in astoria do you receive wnjb channel 8 with rabbit ears i'm in jackson heights next to you, i dont get 51.1 or 8.1 njn. or 21.1 wliw.

Last nights storms were screwing with the reception, the station single strength didn't change but the single broke up like crazy specially 11.

Last nights storms were screwing with the reception, the station single strength didn't change but the single broke up like crazy specially 11.

The high-VHFs are particularly susceptible to the electrical impulse noise from lightning. That cannot be "fixed" except by not using those channels in the first place.

UHF can also be affected but its a much higher threshold.

My antenna passes through a Belkin Power Conditioner which is supposed to filter RFI/EMI interference, does it help? I have the in line amp connected to the power conditioner and the antenna connected to that, the whole cable from the antenna to the amp is about 18 feet long. I'm using mono-price coaxial cable so they are of good quality and antenna.

My antenna passes through a Belkin Power Conditioner which is supposed to filter RFI/EMI interference, does it help? I have the in line amp connected to the power conditioner and the antenna connected to that, the whole cable from the antenna to the amp is about 18 feet long. I'm using mono-price coaxial cable so they are of good quality and antenna.

No, won't help. The disruption to the signal is before or as it gets to your antenna.

Move to Astoria, where every station comes in perfectly stable and clear with a strong signal - with merely a set of telescoping rabbit ears that don't even need to be extended. I can have them fully "collapsed" and flat in a "T" shape and still get everything with no issues. I must live in some weird sweet spot for signals from the ESB.

Move to downtown Brooklyn and you will be able to get the West Orange stations (29, 36) really strong with no problems but other stations like 40, 28, 11 you will have problems even with the best of the indoor antennas.

reddice, nycla

to say astoria or downtown brooklyn would give you good reception to certain channels may be inaccurate. you may be able to get stations your next door neighbor may not get. your reception quality depends on many factors including height, weather, antenna, receive equipment, direction you face, building/house material, potential nearby interference , etc

your window can face a brick wall in a basement and may be able to pickup all channels or you can be 1 mile line of sight from empire state and get nothing because next door is a con ed substation.

Move to downtown Brooklyn and you will be able to get the West Orange stations (29, 36) really strong with no problems but other stations like 40, 28, 11 you will have problems even with the best of the indoor antennas.

reddice, nycla

to say astoria or downtown brooklyn would give you good reception to certain channels may be inaccurate. you may be able to get stations your next door neighbor may not get. your reception quality depends on many factors including height, weather, antenna, receive equipment, direction you face, building/house material, potential nearby interference , etc

your window can face a brick wall in a basement and may be able to pickup all channels or you can be 1 mile line of sight from empire state and get nothing because next door is a con ed substation.

Your statements have been repeated here ad infinitum, ad nauseam but some people refuse to deal with the frustrating realities of television transmission!

I know digital reception is very fickle. I learned that last year when I got my first HDTV and been reading and posting here since there.

By the way I have been getting channel 13 good. Still peaking it at 70. Channel 11 reception still of course still stinks. I wonder if high VHF reception would be better or worse in the fall and winter seasons.

So are they still working on the antennas on ESB? I just (5-minutes ago) lost Ch13 (signal dropped from 30% to 0) and suddenly Ch11 jumped from an intermittent 20% to a watchable 30%. Channel 7 was absent, but suddenly is coming in at 10% (still unwatchable). It seems like these stations keep switching something around, with 13 only showing up after midnight. Are they broadcasting from an alternate site while work is being done on ESB or what's going on?

Only 7 has a backup facility and that's located on the Conde Nast Building - 4TS.

Stations will often do dark between 1 and 5 a.m. to allow work to be done.

There's a lot of now unused hardware on both the Antenna Mast and the Mooring Mast to be removed and stations relocating to higher and better real estate.

This will go on for about another year and a half!

As respects KVNV's request to move to the Big Apple from the far reaches of Northern Nevada, even if no one cares to try and receive it on RF channel 3, I had another thought.

What about all the modulators (millions of them?) set to channel 3 locally? Being an "odd" market, with 4 having been a strong analog local in the past, I suspect that almost all of them are set to 3 and not 4.

What's going to happen when a strong 10kW signal on 3 suddenly signs on locally? Judging from experiences I've heard with a certain station (WBRA), it won't be pretty.

However, I don't think there's anything we can do to stop KVNV's move to 3, unfortunately.

Of course, switching the various millions of modulators to 4 will be easy and painless. :rolleyes:

3 and 4 should be made into quiet zones, unless UHF and/or ATSC/QAM modulators suddenly become standard.

maybe the FCC, given the special circumstance, will grant them a diff frequency: ch-2 or ch-5. they cant give them anything on the UHF band because any other station would use KVNV's case as precedent and try to move to a VHF channel in NJ just so that they could be -- ultimately -- moved up to UHF. not sure if i have worded it in the right way.

Low VHF should have never been used for digital TV. They should have reserved it for expanding the FM dial.

What is Channel 3.1? My box said it added a "new service" Channel 3.1. All it is is a blank white screen with low quality weather warning/information audio.

Probably WBQM-LD. http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=wbqm

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1226829.html

- Trip

WNJB has abandoned its plans to relocate to 4 Times Square.

- Trip

are you sure? why? are they going to use DTS or increase signal strength, instead? if i could receive WLIW-21 i woudnt mind losing WJNB as much.

i emailed WLIW-21 twice asking whether they had plans to a) move the transmitter to Manhattan; b) boost signal; c) use DTS; d) broadcast "PBS World" on WNET or WNJB. they never replied.... :-\

I'm as sure as is possible in these things (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1324744&Service=DT&Form_id=340&Facility_id=48457).

"IN PARTICULAR, AS A RESULT OF THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, THE APPLICANT'S BOARD DETERMINED IN JUNE 2009 THAT THE RELOCATION TO 4 TIMES SQUARE IS NO LONGER FINANCIALLY VIABLE."

- Trip

WNJB has abandoned its plans to relocate to 4 Times Square.

- Trip

Does this mean WABC will have to make any changes?

WNJB has abandoned its plans to relocate to 4 Times Square.

- Trip

I'm not surprised at all!

What does surprise me is that this move was ever contemplated at all.

The only reason for a New Jersey Public Television Station to have wanted to move its transmission to 4TS was to gain a larger audience outside of New Jersey and to receive more pledge and underwriter/advertiser dollars.

If that be the case, fine. But why move the station in New Brunswick, WNJB, which is further from the New York Metropolitan area, than move WNJN in Montclair - which is much closer?

Beyond, that, for the station to use financial difficulties as the reason for this decision is nothing new for NJ Public Television.

All the way back to October 12, 2007, the New Jersey PTV stations requested an STA to operate its analog stations at reduced power (50%)
necessitated by serious budgetary difficulties. The stations' words, not mine.

Here's a direct quote: "The Licensee does not anticipate having the resources to operate the analog facility at full power prior to the end of the transition."

Even with federal grants to help in the digital transition, how in good conscience could any station, especially a public station even think of making the move?

Although I usually shun conspiracy theories, I've always felt that there was a gray presence behind the move, namely WABC in its desperate attempt to secure channel 7 for its digital station. The concept of co-location was the key!

According to the Commission, the only way WABC could have channel 7 was if Channel 8 were to be co-located. The Empire State and the Conde Nast Buildings are considered co-located. Aha, that's why the New Brunswick station wanted to move its transmitter to Manhattan and not the Montclair station. The plot thickens!

Interesting that it's been brought up now, what happens to WABC-DT and channel 7?

Has WABC decided to abandon its hard fought for channel 7 - the way its sister station in Chicago, WLS has?

Did the Mouse House inform New Jersey of a change of mind?

Who knows?

There are just a number of circumstances that play off of each other.

Let's have some more juice for Montclair to widen its audience in the Metro area and more importantly, let's have WABC, tail between its corporate legs, give up on 7 and find a place where it should be on the UHF band.

Yes, I do like to watch "Mystery" on Public Television!!!!

Very well put!

My thoughts....if they moved one of the NJ PBS stations, NJB or NJN to the Empire State or 4TS they could probably eliminate one of them, save money, due to the possible increase in broadcast coverage. They all have the same shows on at the same time. So it makes sense to eliminate one if you can cover the same area from a better location.

Maybe its an experiment, and if the get the results they are looking for one station is eliminated.

Has WABC decided to abandon its hard fought for channel 7 - the way its sister station in Chicago, WLS has?

is ABC Chicago moving out of the VHF band?!?!

Yes, I do like to watch "Mystery" on Public Television!!!!

i'm a big fan of Miss Marple, myself! :D

is ABC Chicago moving out of the VHF band?!?!

Yep. Filed paperwork to abandon channel 7 (at 4.75 kW) in favor of channel 44 (at 473.33 kW).

- Trip

Yep. Filed paperwork to abandon channel 7 (at 4.75 kW) in favor of channel 44 (at 473.33 kW).

what a circus! but hold on, WABC-7 hasnt even been granted the power boost for which they applied a month ago. would they scratch that plan without even trying and move to UHF? and if they do move up, that means they would reactivate the antenna and transmitter they were using pre-transition, right? easy and quick implementation, right?

what a circus! but hold on, WABC-7 hasnt even been granted the power boost for which they applied a month ago. would they scratch that plan without even trying and move to UHF?

I'm not sure. The problem for WLS was that they simply could not increase power enough to make it work. They tested at 9.5 kW and while it was better, it wasn't enough and WOOD-7 and WMVS-8 wouldn't accept the additional interference.

I just picked through the WABC 27 kW document and they claim the only impermissible interference is to the WNJB STA (not to the construction permit for 4TS) but now that they're trying to make the STA permanent, it might fail and be denied. I'm really not sure how the FCC is going to handle this one.

and if they do move up, that means they would reactivate the antenna and transmitter they were using pre-transition, right? easy and quick implementation, right?

One would hope. That assumes they move back to 45 instead of trying to find a clearer channel (not sure where they would find a clearer channel).

- Trip

what a circus! but hold on, WABC-7 hasnt even been granted the power boost for which they applied a month ago. would they scratch that plan without even trying and move to UHF? and if they do move up, that means they would reactivate the antenna and transmitter they were using pre-transition, right? easy and quick implementation, right?

And, WLS, Chicago had also applied for a boost in power and additionally, the use of a UHF fill-in transmitter. All of that didn't stop the station from throwing in the towel concerning VHF!

WABC-DT's Channel 45 facility was on a different ESB Combiner. That Combiner antenna is now servicing Channels 28, 33 and 38.

Who knows what's the state of WABC-DT's previous Channel 45 transmitter?

Those of us who are having trouble properly receiving Channel 7 can
only pray!

What is Channel 3.1? My box said it added a "new service" Channel 3.1. All it is is a blank white screen with low quality weather warning/information audio.

What is the real channel # for this, 3 or 50? I see a CP for 50 in addition to the STA for 3 that Trip linked.

What is the real channel # for this, 3 or 50? I see a CP for 50 in addition to the STA for 3 that Trip linked.

Last time I saw it, it was 3.

I imagine if it had made the move to 50, we'd have heard more about it.

- Trip

That stinks that RF 8 is not moving to 4TS. I was looking forward to it since channel 50 I sometimes have problems. It can be good at certain times and then weak and break at at others. Lets hope Monclair will boost power for RF 51. Also lets hope New York will follow Chicago and move RF 7 back to RF 45. Although I can get RF 7 at times when we have storms it breaks up a lot even though it is coming in the 60's. Also my mother can't get it at all. I can also pray that they move RF 11 back to a UHF channel since that channel is the worst with trying to get it reliable or at all.

im fortunate to have uhf antenna on my roof i can get all pbs stations 21 49 13 51 no problem even 20 from hartford is coming good

At this time, WNJU-DT is transmitting from both West Orange, NJ and 4TS - using DTS.

Eventually, it will move its transmission to almost the top of the ESB's antenna mast with
650kW!

750 but who's counting.

nycla in astoria do you receive wnjb channel 8 with rabbit ears i'm in jackson heights next to you, i dont get 51.1 or 8.1 njn. or 21.1 wliw.

No, only New York stations that broadcast from the ESB. Nothing from New Jersey. So I mean 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 25, 31 and all associated sub-channels. I also can get all those Spanish networks, but I have deleted them all. I also deleted 5.2, 9.2, 11.2, and the religious stuff on 31.4. I kept 13.3 (V-Me).

Very well put!

My thoughts....if they moved one of the NJ PBS stations, NJB or NJN to the Empire State or 4TS they could probably eliminate one of them, save money, due to the possible increase in broadcast coverage. They all have the same shows on at the same time. So it makes sense to eliminate one if you can cover the same area from a better location.

Maybe its an experiment, and if the get the results they are looking for one station is eliminated.
Every PBS station is different! I currently watch 13, 21, and 49, each of which has different programming (49 and 13 are similar, but not identical). When atmospheric conditions are favorable, I can get 50 (WNJN), which is still different. The only things I can find in common is 21.2 and 49.2 are both CREATE.
Mike

I'm curious about all the VHF complaints. I receive all three VHF channels (7, 11, and 13) with a simple dipole made of twin lead (11 poorly), but my reception of the UHF ones is much more marginal, even with a Channel MaSTER UHF Yagi! I never get 2, 4, or 9, and rarely 5 (all have UHF real channels).

Two three days days back I was reading in WSJ that, ABC has the highest advertising rate (for primetime shows), followed by CBS, FOX and NBC. I guess these are determined by marketforce.. may be ratings like Nielsen ratings. In fact I can understand how that adds up.. in my house, we used to watch mostly ABC or FOX.. CBS mostly had more violence/crime oriented shows (except Mon I think). NBC is almost similar to CBS but not as exciting as FOX and ABC. Now that ABC has become unreliable (in my case 70% probablity that I would get it), at least in my house FOX has gained at the cost of ABC. Now I am talking about my house, where we prefer to watch light shows, reality based shows (but not ghetto like Big Brother.. or "get me outta here. Im a celeb" - not sure whether that's the correct name). I feel there are lot of primetime network shows viewers similar to my profile. If Nielsen ratings shows a viewership decline for ABC (quite possible because NYC OTA market is huge), ABC mgmt would surely notice it and try to fix it. For WLS, how are they planning to communicate to the viewers that ABC is moving to UHF? Also.. going by the above theory CW11 should really be at the bottom of the barrel (previously held by my9).

If Nielsen ratings shows a viewership decline for ABC (quite possible because NYC OTA market is huge), ABC mgmt would surely notice it and try to fix it.

I'm actually curious about the size of the NYC OTA market. New York I believe has one of the highest cable penetration rates in the country, due in large part to 9/11 taking out all the big stations in the market except channel 2.

That said, even if the percentage is lower, due to the sheer numbers, it could still be a larger number of people. I'm quite curious.

For WLS, how are they planning to communicate to the viewers that ABC is moving to UHF?

So far, they're not. If it was me, I wouldn't be communicating a thing to the general public until the FCC gave at least initial approval of the plan. If the FCC says no to WWAZ's request to move to channel 5, the channel 44 plan falls apart. Don't want to get hopes up among too many people until something is in stone.

- Trip

I'm actually curious about the size of the NYC OTA market. New York I believe has one of the highest cable penetration rates in the country, due in large part to 9/11 taking out all the big stations in the market except channel 2.

That said, even if the percentage is lower, due to the sheer numbers, it could still be a larger number of people. I'm quite curious.



So far, they're not. If it was me, I wouldn't be communicating a thing to the general public until the FCC gave at least initial approval of the plan. If the FCC says no to WWAZ's request to move to channel 5, the channel 44 plan falls apart. Don't want to get hopes up among too many people until something is in stone.

- TripIf you ever tried to watch analog OTA in a big city, you would understand why the cable penetration was so high. The multipath was beyond belief. (It still is, which is one of the reasons why DTV is so much trouble here).

I used to live in Saddle Brook, NJ more than 15 years ago. I remember intense multipath on channel 50, but not on others. I know, not a good comparison, but I know how multipath can be.

I also remember seeing a metric ton of it on 58 everywhere I went that it would come in (not in Saddle Brook). Even coming up I-95 I had a lot of problems with it that I don't remember seeing on the NY stations.

It comes as no surprise to me that multipath is a problem, but I do remember that cable penetration went up a LOT after 9/11 when people who didn't have multipath problems had trouble seeing the reduced signals.

- Trip

Networks and New York television stations are not really going to feel the impact of a station not reaching some of its former O-T-A viewers.

Yes, the New York DMA has one of the three highest penetrations of Cable and
Alternative Delivery Systems (Satellite for the most part) - 96.0% compared to
Palm Springs, CA - 96.4% and West Palm Beach/Ft. Pierce FL - 96.5%.

Cable in the NYC area, as Trip mentioned, was embraced at the beginning because of impossible reception problems - then add the World Trade Center disaster.

So, with 96% of all NY DMA television homes receiving programming via cable or satellite, there isn't much of an argument concerning pressure exerted by missing
O-T-A viewers. Sorry!

So, with 96% of all NY DMA television homes receiving programming via cable or satellite, there isn't much of an argument concerning pressure exerted by missing
O-T-A viewers. Sorry!
Maybe not but those 4% of NY DMA television homes are more than all the television homes in the Johnstown / Altoona / State College, PA (101st) DMA.

Maybe not but those 4% of NY DMA television homes are more than all the television homes in the Johnstown / Altoona / State College, PA (101st) DMA.


Good try!

But only a fraction of those households are watching the ABC station and not all of them are experiencing reception problems.

Your universe is getting smaller and smaller and therefore to a station really insignificant!

Many providers are now taking their signals off the air as opposed to taking a fiber feed for redelivery to homes. That means that OTA signals are extremely important to not only those who receive television OTA, but to cable and satellite providers as well.

If, as some suggest, OTA is increasingly unimportant to NYC broadcasters, why are they pressuring the FCC for more power, relief from senseless interference rules, fight the introduction of unregulated new devices in the TV spectrum and investing in better antennas on ESB?

There are a number of reasons:

Stations must protect their frequencies - before the transition, there were many who felt that O-T-A was passe and wanted it abandoned. Assets must be defended.

Many cable companies and satellite providers continue to receive their feeds from local stations via O-T-A.

Stations hope that their digital sub-channels will be an asset - a commodity that can be leased for cash. Some have already started this practice.

Mobile Television is just starting and many stations and their parent companies see it as the "future" of O-T-A.

Yes. There's plenty of room for growth of OTA if certain improvements are made, especially in Rx technologies, to promote much more reliable reception. That is, at least 99% of the time at the best 75% of the locations. For now, the FCC power allocation is based on analog service availability of only 90% of the time at the best 50% of the locations. But analog is not killed by multipath, the killer of DTV OTA.

Many providers are now taking their signals off the air as opposed to taking a fiber feed for redelivery to homes. That means that OTA signals are extremely important to not only those who receive television OTA, but to cable and satellite providers as well.Yes but such providers are using towers and professional equipment and not what consumers typically use.

If the FCC says no to WWAZ's request to move to channel 5, the [WLS] channel 44 plan falls apart.

Isn't WWAZ/44 dark right now, however? (since 1/08 from what I'm reading) That's the irony of it. So, an ABC station has to give way to a station that has no current operations, but has a permit to build on 44.

It would make more sense if the Big 4 could move to UHF in major markets, where it's a problem, swapping VHF allocations with small stations that don't have as many viewers. The fragmentation of the big 4 in all but a relative handful of top 100 markets was not a good idea.

Also, last I heard the FCC hadn't lowered the license fee of VHF stations (going by the old allocation) vs. UHF. So, a VHF virtual channel number still carries a premium, thanks to the old days of VHF being king. In other words, at least for now, a small UHF station could move to VHF and still pay the lower UHF fee. At least for now...

I'm curious about all the VHF complaints. I receive all three VHF channels (7, 11, and 13) with a simple dipole made of twin lead (11 poorly), but my reception of the UHF ones is much more marginal, even with a Channel MaSTER UHF Yagi! I never get 2, 4, or 9, and rarely 5 (all have UHF real channels).

Would you mind sharing your TV Fool plot?

Can you get the Hartford stations?

I'm guessing you are having problems with trees. A general plot for Stony Brook shows most NYC stations in the yellow region, which should not be especially weak.

Where is are the antennas mounted? Are you using RG6 cabling?

before the transition, there were many who felt that O-T-A was passe and wanted it abandoned.

If that happened then there would have to be a law passed that said that basic cable providing the traditional broadcast OTA stations be provided for free. Satellite too for those living in areas where there is no cable. You just buy the box (and dish if necessary).

Would you mind sharing your TV Fool plot?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16735563#post16735563

Can you get the Hartford stations? Yes, some

I'm guessing you are having problems with trees. A general plot for Stony Brook shows most NYC stations in the yellow region, which should not be especially weak.

Where is are the antennas mounted? Are you using RG6 cabling?
UHF: in the attic; VHF: on a 10' length of PVC pipe stuck out the attic window. I am using RG6 between the UHF antenna and the CM7777 preamp. The VHF dipole is 300 ohm; about 6 feet from the balun on the preamp. The cable between the two parts of the preamp is about 15 feet of RG59; the cable between the inside part of the preamp is about 30 feet of RG59. Both of these are inside the wall (are these long enough to make it worthwhile to replace them?)

After I am convinced that my antenna "farm" will work, I plan to move it to my roof, or on the NNW-facing end of my attic (outside). Because my roof slope is 45 degrees, and about 50 feet above the ground, and I would have to rent a ladder long enough to reach, I only want to do this once.

My real point was "why do people have so much trouble picking up the high-VHF stations when I can pick them up from 45 miles away with such a wimpy antenna?"

Mike

Yes but such providers are using towers and professional equipment and not what consumers typically use.

True, but I was responding to the question which was, why do stations care about their OTA transmissions. They do have an OTA audience, be it private homes or redistributers.

A lot of us have problems because unlike YOU, we live between the transmitters and obstacles like buildings, hills, trees, and mountains! Just to name some of the issues.

Has anyone else had a significant increase in signal strength on these problematic channels?

I live in Long Beach, Long Island/20 miles from ESB, using a CM and an old Radio Shack amplified. I was previously getting only 30% on 7 and 13 and either nothing at all or an unwatchable and highly pixelated 11. Now I'm getting 7 at 100%, 11 at 54%, and 13 at 76%, all stable. And I don't have to switch the antenna positions. I only have to switch for WLIW, which I had to do anyway pre-transition.

I think that, when the stations went off-air last week for antenna work, they made some kind of adjustments to the 3 signals. I didn't notice it until today because I was pretty much ignoring Ch 11 since it seemed hopeless.

There have been no power increases for those stations.

You are being blessed by atmospherics.

Enjoy while you can!

I'm just curious, how other people's experiences align with my own. What is the "strongest" signal you are unable to receive and the "weakest" signal you are able to receive?

For example, according to TVfool.com, WXXA(7, 23.1) should be quite strong at my location (PWR=-67.7dBm), but I can't detect even a blip. Meanwhile, I can pull in WPIX-11 (PWR=-106.5) consistently and on a good day I get WNET-13 (PWR=-106.6dBm), as well. Clearly, something's going on that the simulations just can't handle.

On the UHF side, I can't get W30AZ (PWR=-87.9 dBM), yet I pull in WNYE-24 (PWR=-111) and I even get WFUT-30 (PWR=-109.2) off of the back of the UHF antenna when pointed towards Albany! I suppose it is Murphy's law that allows me to pull in these stragglers, while I can't get any of the UHF NYC major networks (WCBS, WNBC, WNYW, WWOR).

I get nada on wnjb ch8 or 50 i get wliw 21 off the back of my yagi pointed to nyc i'm near lga queenz :)

"There have been no power increases for those stations. You are being blessed by atmospherics. Enjoy while you can!"

LOL !

on the VHF side I can receive 7 very well and 58.1 (8) with some break up but not 11 or 13.

On the UHF side 4.1 and 5.1 have been great and 2.1 has been almost as good. I can't receive 9.1 at all.

25.1 and 68.1 come in very good. followed by 50.1. 31.1 is spotty along with 41.1, 47.1 63.1

does anyone here have any information on WSAH's application to move to ESB? found out about it today thru a fellow beard member. when are they planning to move? that would be NYC's first old-tv-shows channel.

BPCDT 20080620ALT 301 E WSAH 70493 DT ACCEPTED FOR FILING 06/23/2008
Info | Application

I found this application dated 6/23/2008 to move to the ESB. It looked as if the application is predicated upon offering Chinese programming.

RTV (be careful referring to it as My. MY is a broadcast network owned by News Corp.)
is the proper name of the network affiliatiated with WSAH.

I have no information if and when a move may occur.

Why don't you call the station and ask?

RTV (be careful referring to it as My. MY is a broadcast network owned by News Corp.)

I meant to type "any" but I'm on my TabletPC and hand-writing recognition isn't always accurate. :) i might call them but chances are the people answering won't know a thing.

A guy from WSAH frequents another forum I visit and he won't say anything about it.

- Trip

regarding the "Chinese Programming".... can that be enforced? I mean, I thought that programming was outside FCC's Jurisdiction.

WWME-CA in Chicago is operating its analog at 363 kW, which is at twice the limit (which is 150 kW) and they argued it to the FCC as a place to put the now digital-only foreign language WFBT-CA that preceded the current programming. It now shows classic TV shows.

- Trip

regarding the "Chinese Programming".... can that be enforced? I mean, I thought that programming was outside FCC's Jurisdiction.

Stations are supposed to show the FCC that they will service "the public's interest, convenience and necessity."

The premise of the station's application to move to the ESB was that there was a large Chinese community not being served correctly - and that if the station were to have its signal from ESB the community would be served.

Although the Commission has given up on holding stations' "feet to the fire,"
in the case with WSAH, its the entire raison d'etre for the application.

In calling the station, you might want to ask for the Chief Engineer - engineers a nice and knowledgeable people!!!!!!

There'd be nothing stopping them from airing RTV on 43-1 and Chinese on 43-2.

- Trip

WWME-CA in Chicago is operating its analog at 363 kW, which is at twice the limit (which is 150 kW) and they argued it to the FCC as a place to put the now digital-only foreign language WFBT-CA that preceded the current programming. It now shows classic TV shows.

I'm having a hard time to understand this... WWME is shown on Rabbit as an "LD" airing at 4.4 KW. also. what does the foreign programming have to do with the need for extra power? I can understand a need for a wider band to fit more channels, but more power...? could you, if and when possible, re-phrase the post... I'm very confused. by the way. do they have a leg to stand on? :confused:

The analog is a CA, and it's at 363 kW. They argued that the foreign language audience would be better served with more power. And the FCC went for it.

- Trip

thank you guys for enlightening me further.

btw, I received my Winegard HD 7694P this weekend and I'm shocked at the fact that, so far, I have not been able to find a sweet spot for it inside the apartment. I haven't tried it hard enough due to lack of time, but i must say I was expecting to throw it under the fridge and immediately resolve my Hi-VHF problems without much effort. I'm afraid this antenna will be a "white elephant"... :(

----
My real point was "why do people have so much trouble picking up the high-VHF stations when I can pick them up from 45 miles away with such a wimpy antenna?"
----

Each receiver and TV installation is unique. I live 50 miles NW of NYC. My friend 2 miles away has no problems with WABC 7. I can not receive a reliable signal from WABC 7. The topographic cross section reception map from TV Fool for my location and my friends location show my friend has one less small hill between his location and ESB. The small hill is just enough to cause problems for me with receiving channel 7, even though I had no trouble receiving 7 when it was analog (higher power?). The people depending on OTA in my area are really pissed that they can no longer receive a signal. These people either are on low or fixed income, have an "issue" with paying CATV or Satellite for a service that they feel should be free, or have been satisfied by the limited OTA programming of the past and have no interest in paying to receive 200+ CATV channels of what they feel is crap content.

I have no problems receiving WABC 7 or WNET 13. It is WPIX 11 I still can't get or get reliability.

im receiving 43.1 wsah with bunny ears anybody know if they move to city yet ? also no signal on fox 5 must be maintenance

The BEST show on WPIX 11 is Star Trek (the original series), at 1AM Sunday morning, with enhanced graphics (the Enterprise looks GREAT and the planets being orbited look GREAT incorporating what has been learned about how planets look from space - like pale atmospheric glow)

The BEST show on WPIX 11 is Star Trek (the original series), at 1AM Sunday morning,

agreed. Star Trek is the only thing i miss from CW! i catch it online, though (the whole series is available on the CBS channel on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/show/startrek)).

however, i heard that that soap opera they call "Smallville" might become a real super hero show this season with Kent finally getting a uniform and flying. if it happens, i *might* watch it.

im receiving 43.1 wsah with bunny ears anybody know if they move to city yet ? also no signal on fox 5 must be maintenance

can you give us an idea of where you live?
also, for how long have you been able to receive WSAH?

agreed. Star Trek is the only thing i miss from CW! i catch it online, though (the whole series is available on the CBS channel on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/show/startrek)).

however, i heard that that soap opera they call "Smallville" might become a real super hero show this season with Kent finally getting a uniform and flying. if it happens, i *might* watch it.

The MOST IMPORTANT point about Star Trek on WPIX 11 is the video quality - DTV plus the judicious use of enhanced special effects (Enterprise and planets).

I generally HATE the CGI that are overused in movies today.

The show following Star Trek, is Star Gate - I couldn't care less about *Gate.

I feel sorry for anyone who likes Star Trek and can't receive WPIX.

I've never seen Smallville. I love DC Comics (HATE Marvel) and Superman will always, ONLY be GEORGE REEVES.

P.S. Superman appears in Gone With the Wind too.

I agree the original Star Trek looks great upcoverted.

I agree the original Star Trek looks great upcoverted.

It's more than upconverted, it's been REMASTERED.

See...
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/features/bst/article/28135.html

Check out some of the Original and Enhanced images.

Stations are supposed to show the FCC that they will service "the public's interest, convenience and necessity."

The premise of the station's application to move to the ESB was that there was a large Chinese community not being served correctly - and that if the station were to have its signal from ESB the community would be served.

Although the Commission has given up on holding stations' "feet to the fire,"
in the case with WSAH, its the entire raison d'etre for the application.

In calling the station, you might want to ask for the Chief Engineer - engineers a nice and knowledgeable people!!!!!!

Speaking of Chinese Programming...

I notice 48-2 is now showing CCTV-9. Fortunately the service is in English. Anyone else seeing this?

Very well put!

My thoughts....if they moved one of the NJ PBS stations, NJB or NJN to the Empire State or 4TS they could probably eliminate one of them, save money, due to the possible increase in broadcast coverage. They all have the same shows on at the same time. So it makes sense to eliminate one if you can cover the same area from a better location.

Maybe its an experiment, and if the get the results they are looking for one station is eliminated.

That would be nice, but I doubt it. They have translators in quite a few places that IMHO they could more easily get rid of

i get 43.1 retro tv using bunny ears i live in 11369 next to lga. only in late night though i think theyre using more radiated power than usual, last night it was coming in real strong i have zenith dt901 converter, i usually get 43.1 on my rooftop uhf yagi, i think theyre signal is stronger than wedn 49.1 cptv. and theyre further away i have 7775 preamp on yagi uhf

63.3 is longer MBC-D. It is now CGN-TV.
I will miss the English subtitled dramas on this channel...

From MBC-D:
-----
Broadcasts in New York/New Jersey (Ch.63-3) Temporarily Suspended

MBC AMERICA 2009.07.30 08:21:23 Due to unforeseen circumstances, MBC America will temporarily suspend the broadcast of MBCD in the New York/New Jersey areas starting August 1st. Thank you for watching and we will do our best to bring MBCD back on the air as soon as possible. – MBC America
-----

From WMBC-TV:

-----
WMBC is now broadcasting CGNTV programming, 24/7

CGNTV (Christian Global Network Television) specializes in Christian missionary education programming broadcasting to 123 countries, 24 hours a day. CGNTV's broadcasting objective is to supply Korean missionaries all over the world with spiritual training resources as well as help Korean Christian diasporas maintain their spiritual walk with God.
-----

There is a new 63.6 with label WDNJ. It appears to be audio only and in Spanish.

i get 43.1 retro tv using bunny ears i live in 11369 next to lga. only in late night though i think theyre using more radiated power than usual, last night it was coming in real strong i have zenith dt901 converter, i usually get 43.1 on my rooftop uhf yagi, i think theyre signal is stronger than wedn 49.1 cptv. and theyre further away i have 7775 preamp on yagi uhf

is there any subs on 43? how is the programing?

try quiznoz lol yeah 43.1 43.2 paid program for montel williams blender :) i got a brand new winegard ap 4800 amp if anyone intested

The MOST IMPORTANT point about Star Trek on WPIX 11 is the video quality - DTV plus the judicious use of enhanced special effects (Enterprise and planets).

[...]

I've never seen Smallville. I love DC Comics (HATE Marvel) and Superman will always, ONLY be GEORGE REEVES.

i havent put much effort into trying to find a sweet spot for receiving CW, but i will try it at some point.... it has taken me months to find a sweet spot for ABC and Thirteen.....and in all likelihood, the spot for CW will be in a totally distinct place.

man, your Superman is really old school. :) i remember watching that in early 80s.... i was ninja enough to tie a bathroom towel around my neck and go "flying" around the neighbourhood after the show.... :rolleyes: i never forget that intro showing him near a "waving" flag in the vacuum of space! classic! nevertheless, Christopher is my fave Super!

I know some of you have made antennas rather than buy. There are a number of websites that give directions on how to make them.

My question is does the type of metal matter? For example if you were to use solid copper wire would that pick up more signal than the metal used in the antennas we buy which appears to be either hollow core aluminum or solid aluminum?

Copper is quite soft and expensive so I can see that store bought antennas would need to be sturdier. However If I was going to mount a homebuilt antenna in an attic or in a living room would copper be a better material to use?

i made my Folded Dipole using 12-AWG wire. It's a bit better than a regular rabbit ears but without directors and a reflector, it can't do much for Hi-VHF (I'm 10 miles north of ESB). so if you are planning to make an antenna for UHF plus Hi-VHF, get ready for some stress. my advice is to buy a cheap RCA ANT751 or better. Hi-VHF is a PITA! I bought a Winegard HD 7694P and placed it indoors (what on eye-sore!). but now I get ABC and Thirteen at 90%.

I know some of you have made antennas rather than buy. There are a number of websites that give directions on how to make them.

As is most often the case with the internet, there is much mis-information out there... When I first got interested in all this I threw together the u-tube whisker antenna - with unimpressive results. Then after much research I built a G-H which showed more promise. The u-tube doesn't maintain impedance at the crossover points of the phase lines, the elements are too short & spacings too close, and it's built on wood - which also messes with the impedance. (PVC pipe is a much better choice.)

The whole point, as I see it, is to build an antenna which not only costs a fraction of that of a commercial design, but to improve performance. Most current commercial designs were for ch's14-69 and as we now only need to top out at 51 the gain curve can be lowered in frequency, thus improving performance for both the lower UHF channels, and also down into hi-VHF too. Check out DHC for both perfected versions of the CM4221 whisker antenna (mclapp designs) and the G-H antenna's.

I'm currently working on a G-H with collinear rod reflectors & something called NAROD's which boost the gain in hi-VHF to usable levels. I may dedicate this afternoon to putting it together and will post some pic's, and let you know how it worked out. (If you like Len, PM me and I'll email you the links to the various pages with gain comarasion charts and the pdf's with diagrams & dimensions - the search can be quite exhausting.) ;)

My question is does the type of metal matter? For example if you were to use solid copper wire would that pick up more signal than the metal used in the antennas we buy which appears to be either hollow core aluminum or solid aluminum?

Copper has a lower resistance than aluminum, and in many cases is easier to obtain. Aluminum is harder, can be obtained in straight rods, is lighter, and is probably a bit more weather resistant. From everything I've read it makes but an infinitesimal difference as far as actually capturing more signal. (Improving the gain.) Way more important is the construction method used, and achieving dimensional accuracy to the models.

Copper is quite soft and expensive so I can see that store bought antennas would need to be sturdier. However If I was going to mount a homebuilt antenna in an attic or in a living room would copper be a better material to use?

Copper wire can be both straightened and work hardened by simply placing one end of a length of wire in a stationary vise and the other in a drill and spinning the wire - this makes it much easier to work with!

...I bought a Winegard HD 7694P and placed it indoors (what on eye-sore!). but now I get ABC and Thirteen at 90%.

I was LMAO when in an earlier post you mentioned something about just sticking this under your refrigerator! :D

The 7694 is a pretty big antenna - You got this thing hanging from the LR ceiling with fishing line, or did you just dedicate a spare bedroom to it???

At your location I'm surprised you didn't try a homemade mclapp whisker or a G-H... At least either of these hanging on your wall you could've called modern art! LOL

I know some of you have made antennas rather than buy. There are a number of websites that give directions on how to make them.

My question is does the type of metal matter? For example if you were to use solid copper wire would that pick up more signal than the metal used in the antennas we buy which appears to be either hollow core aluminum or solid aluminum?

Copper is quite soft and expensive so I can see that store bought antennas would need to be sturdier. However If I was going to mount a homebuilt antenna in an attic or in a living room would copper be a better material to use?

akahooper have covered most of the issues for home built antennas. What I have experienced and seen from various resources on the internet are:
1) Material: Aluminium is more weather resistant and light too and is more suited for outdoor application. Used indoor or in attic, it doesm't really
make a difference.
2) Materials used for support: If the whiskers for the 4 bay design are screwed into wood (as shown in the youtube), there is a considerable loss in
gain. Also if the antenna is outdoor and if the wood gets wait, it becomes a poor conductor adding to the complexity and unreliability of the antenna.
So PVC standoff with grooves are the best to mount whiskers and feed line.
3) Reflector: This is the second most important aspect of the antenna after choosing the antenna design. Without reflector, the gains are much less.
Also reflectors aid in Hi-VHF performance.
4) Element symmetry and dimension: More the elements are symmetrical and close to the design dimension, the more gain it will have because of better
resonance performance. This is why commercial antennas are more practical and useful than typical home built ones. But sometime, people would like to
surpass the performance offered by commercial ones by custom solution. mclapps design is one of the good one. Although its difficult to build than the
de-facto youtube one.
5) Balun and RG6 quality: Both RG6 and balun quality also matters.

I still haven't managed to build the mclapp one yet, although I have all the materials with me. I plan to build one. I built the youtube coathanger
one( 4-bay) sometime back.. it was better than lot of commercial off-the-shelf antenna but was not better than the Terk HDTVa or the eagle-aspen DB2
clone because of all the above points I mentioned above. I would like to rectify them this time when I build the mclapp one.
Currently I am using a Channel Master 3010 Stealth antenna with CM3084 pre-amp (with FM trap enabled). Although I am getting all the NYC market chanels
except 11(never get it) and 13(I get it only if tropo helps me), I wouldn't rate this antenna high marks. If I had to start over, I'd have bought
a RCA ANT751 with a good quality low noise pre-amp.