If you heard what I heard from the people at WSAH, you would understand exactly why they dropped RTV and why they were 100% correct to do so.

why did they drop RTV??? i wanted that channel. :-(

so is there any TVLand-like channels negotiating with NYC stations now?

RTV was not bad. Now the channel is wasting space running stupid annoying infomercials all the time. What is the point of a channel that runs infomercials all the time. Just a big waste of space. I hope they stay in Connecticut and not move to the ESB wasting power showing useless infomercials on there since they are cramped for space.

RTV was not up to the standards set by WSAH. I won't get into specifics, but let's just say that when someone in charge at WSAH calls to complain about pressing problems (like ads that were sold and then not shown), getting yelled at by the people at RTV did not leave a very good taste in their mouth.

The infomercials make them more money than RTV did.

- Trip

thanks for the info, Trip!
do you know of any stations in NYC negotiating with RTV or any other similar channel (MeTV, ThisTV, etc)?

I've heard unofficially that RTV is seeking another affiliate in New York, but nothing beyond that.

MeTV is not a network.

This TV, I've heard nothing about with regard to New York, but I have to imagine it will pop up soon. New York is a glaring hole in the network's coverage and would easily put it over carriage in 80% of the country.

- Trip

trip i read about the problems with rtv, on another site, seems like those technical glitches are not being corrected, on other rtv affiliates either imho think it would behoof the connecticut region if wsha would broadcast wfsb or wtic, on wsah sub channel.
just my cents.

I understand stations need to make money. But that's not our problem as watchers. We know stations claim to serve us but really serve those who pay for commercial airtime.

It is a matter that we want quality programming more than informercials. So, WSAH had a good reason to get rid of Retro-TV, that doesn't mean we like it.

wsah was only showing retro tv for a few hours a day and the shows they had were hand picked. i was not interested in any their tv series they put up, i wanted to watch the hulk, adam 12 , emergency, they never showed those. :(

I've heard unofficially that RTV is seeking another affiliate in New York, but nothing beyond that.

MeTV is not a network.

This TV, I've heard nothing about with regard to New York, but I have to imagine it will pop up soon. New York is a glaring hole in the network's coverage and would easily put it over carriage in 80% of the country.

- Trip

There are so many millions with OTA now. Money is tight in this economy. Why can't the networks put up what people want to see

1) 24/7 news like CNN
2) 24/7 movie station or THIS TV RTV, ME TV
3) A station like A&E, Discovery channel, ect ( How hard can it be to make a DOG the Bounty Hunter type shows. Or Kate plus 8 ect.

4) Channel 21 with a link for NYC

5) ESPN

6) TNT type of channel

7) Free PLAYBOY channel (A man can wish no?)

Just saying with over 50 million OTa people (anyone know the actual number?)

The Networks have a niche market. The cable company's are not involved with OTA. So Instead of the networks complaining about losing share. Make OTA like a mini FREE Cable network. Compete with the cable companys like they do with the networks.

This can not be hard to understand for the networks

^ I want some of what you're smoking.

^ I want some of what you're smoking.

I know it is pure fantasy. What if what I wrote is true how many would leave Cable tv? The networks have a clear advantage with OTA. They are not taking advantage of it. That is my point.

^ I want some of what you're smoking.I know it is pure fantasy. What if what I wrote is true how many would leave Cable tv? The networks have a clear advantage with OTA. They are not taking advantage of it. That is my point.

I agree, and frankly just don't understand why the networks are jerking around!

Firstly, what are the actual limits (comfortably, without compromising quality) with digital OTA transmission?
For instance, is it possible to simultaneously transmit:
(1) 1080 HD and (1) 720 HD, and (1) 480 SD, -OR-
(2) 720 HD and (2) 480 SD sub ch's. -OR-
(1) 720 HD and (3) 480 SD subs -OR-
(5) 480 SD ch's?

Or is all of that entirely too optimistic?
Regardless...

It would seem the networks are currently in a very good position to go to war with cable/sat providers, up the programming choices, and give the consumer a real alternative to paid TV - and they would get to keep all the advertising dollars.

I think the question that must be answered, and is really the determining factor, is: How does the money flow???

The way I understand it, cable/sat providers get paid from the subscriber and from the network to carry their programming. But the major networks also produce many shows shown on the cable/sat networks, new and exclusive in addition to what's in syndication. (For example, CBS produces "The Guardian" on Sleuth network.)

So currently networks would theoretically have to pay extra to have the cable/sat providers carry their sub channel transmissions, yes? (If CBS put "The Guardian" on a sub channel, etc.)

Better still, why can't the networks just act like a cable/sat provider and lease their extra channel space to the same networks that are already on cable/sat? TNT is on cable, Dish & Direct TV... Why not on CBS's OTA -2 transmission also? NBC can cut a deal with USA, and put CNBC on a SD sub, etc, etc... THEN WE'D HAVE A REAL ALTERNATIVE TO PAY TV!

Of course the masses would first need to be educated that the OTA HD quality is superior, and that (for the most part) they don't need the 10'x14' yagi monster antennas of old on their roof.

Problem is, the moment the cable/sat providers realize they're losing revenue due to people dropping their service they will change their tune and cut a deal with the networks, and in the end we will all get screwed...

And I also agree you're smoking some good sh!t if you think we're ever going to see free OTA Playboy! :D LOL!

As much as people would enjoy the major networks shooting themselves in the head, I sincerely doubt it will happen.

Cable networks receive money from cable systems, not the other way around. Every person who leaves cable/satellite for OTA is a loss of a guaranteed fee in favor of the chance of slightly better ad revenue in a bad ad market.

Since all of the major networks are co-owned with many cable networks, many more so than will ever be available OTA, none will go this route.

- Trip

Cable networks receive money from cable systems, not the other way around. Every person who leaves cable/satellite for OTA is a loss of a guaranteed fee in favor of the chance of slightly better ad revenue in a bad ad market.

Since all of the major networks are co-owned with many cable networks, many more so than will ever be available OTA, none will go this route.

See this is how I originally thought it went - but then I got misinformed.:o
So TNT for instance is getting revenue from Dish, Direct, and all the cable co's also. So then, yes why would they want to pay to be carried on an OTA network's sub channel...

And then so also are the OTA networks paid by the cable/sat providers to be carried on their systems? And if the OTA networks try to become the competition it will be a war, and the cable/sat providers will stop carrying the OTA networks?

So who is getting the ad revenue from commercials on a cable/sat network - the cable/sat provider, yes?

Then can it be looked at from another angle - would it be cost effective for the OTA networks to pay the cable/sat network (and if it's co-owned all the better) to be on their OTA subs? And by default, so to speak, gaining viewership from those that cancel cable/sat, reaping the ad revenue, while saving on not having to produce extra programming to fill these slots?

I'm just looking for a way to justify a win for us little guys here!
I am finding it ridiculous to have to pay almost $100/mo to watch TV - WITH COMMERCIALS!
The cable/sat companies need to be brought down a few notches, and this can now be done with digital OTA - I have read that 98% of this country can receive OTA reliably with the right equipment.

If someone will just have the balls to throw the first punch. :D

I keep the "yagi monster " under my bed

I keep the "yagi monster " under my bed

That's freakin' classic!
LMAO!:D

It seems to me that the CBSch.2 not providing subchannels, as compared to
NBCch.4-2, that the ch.2CEO are brain damaged.
I do not watch daytime Sunday but NBC4-2 at night shows noontime show like Meet the press, while cbs remains comatose,alo

CBS has decided that pristine picture quality is preferable to additional subchannels. Given the current state of the advertising market, I don't think I disagree.

- Trip

Also, the viewership of the sub-channels is below minimum standards to have ratings published.

We have very much of a Catch 22 situation.

Carriage makes programming available to the audience.

Programming attracts viewers.

Viewers mean ratings. Ratings equal advertisers. Higher ratings, higher ad rates.

Programming costs money.

Today, stations are cutting budgets.

The circle goes round and round!

I'm OTA here 40 miles north of NYC. CBS-2 is to be commended for no sub channels. ABC by comparison looks like crap, and no, it's not the 720 vs. 1080 issue, its the bitrate and the way ABC starves .1 to feed .2 "lifestyle" channel. These subchannels are a waste. I don't even bother to program them into the system. Much like my Dish setup, where I have a favorites list and that's pretty much it-I have little enough time as it is to waste it on watching "shopping channels".

How did you come about obtaining the spool.

If there are any ham radio guys on line here they love to have it.

You can use use the coax for tv signals but you must match it to 75 ohms. The ham radio guys do it all the time when they build a long wire antenna that is at 300 ohms. I have seen the directions to do it. I do not know just where. All coax has the lowest loss when new. As moisture corrodes the shield & the foam breaks down then the loss goes up just like 300 ohm. Many ham radio guys still use 300 ohm because 300 ohm wire loss is really lower than coax. But a lot of of extra care is needed to mount the 300 ohm wire that the coax doesnot. If they still manufactured 300 ohm open wire it would be the best of all. But where do you get it today. It had the lowest loss of all. You can make it buying #12 bare solid copper wire. But you would have to cut pvc pipe into spacers & drill holes to build the 300 ohm open wire. But is great because the loss does not go up as it gets old. You could run the 300 ohm open wire from the antenna down to a good location to a preamp or amp. Then from the amp to the tv can be 75 ohm coax.

Yes, I'm a ham and I have a length of LMR 400 feeding a UHF/VHF discone on the roof. It's overkill for UHF and VHF, but for 800 mhz signals, there is a difference. My OTA TV system has RG-6 from the Cable Company, mostly, and I get all channels well except channel 50, which is a bit over 500 mhz. This is also due to the fact I split the signal four ways without an amp. I have a large antenna, and this with no amp, which I could not use as my ham radios would cause havoc. Now I can transmit and not bother TV.

Sell the LMR 400 to another ham and buy better RG-6, fresh connectors and splitters (I had one old splitter causing no end of problems till found). The 400 is expensive !

I wonder if ladder line would work at these frequencies. Even if it did, it would be a royal PIA to run compared to coax. Hams used ladder line because it has low line loss when transmitting at high SWR, which is not relevant for a receive - TV setup. (hams also must use a tuner with this setup)

it was a corporate decision for cbs owned and operated stations to not have subschannels. do u really want cbs to sacrafise picture quality for awful subchannels with weather or other usless programming?

a lot of networks are experiemnting with subchannels but no one has yet to make a profit from it. in new york, weather plus on nbc failed. now that its replaced with new york non stop programming is not much better and no one is watching. the tube previously on wpix's subchannel failed and went out of business. abc hd looks like crap because they gave bandwith to live well hd that no one watches. all these channels are buried on the cable dial and handful of OTA viewers are watching these because their viewing options are much more limited.

in very small markets where there are cbs affiliates (not owned by cbs) the subchannel may be a less popular network with no affiliation in that market such as CW or MyNetwork, weather, or informercials.


It seems to me that the CBSch.2 not providing subchannels, as compared to
NBCch.4-2, that the ch.2CEO are brain damaged.
I do not watch daytime Sunday but NBC4-2 at night shows noontime show like Meet the press, while cbs remains comatose,alo

I don't know about anyone else, but I have yet to see a subchannel that's of any interest to me. The only exception is PBS 13.2 and QUBO 31.2 for the kids.

what happened to WABC? I have no signal but I can get WNET and WPIX

It's 9:23 and WABC is coming in loud and clear!

I'm OTA here 40 miles north of NYC. CBS-2 is to be commended for no sub channels. ABC by comparison looks like crap, and no, it's not the 720 vs. 1080 issue, its the bitrate and the way ABC starves .1 to feed .2 "lifestyle" channel. These subchannels are a waste. I don't even bother to program them into the system. Much like my Dish setup, where I have a favorites list and that's pretty much it-I have little enough time as it is to waste it on watching "shopping channels".

I would say main channel HD and 1 sub at SD would be ok with most everyone.

Putting 2 HD channels is stupid imo

My daughter LOVES Qubo. I thought she was the only one who watched it.

i have no prob with one main channel in HD and 1 or 2 subs in SD. the problem is the network's lack of will to create a good sub-channel. someone said the Weather sub-channel flopped.... no shite.... of course it did. it sucked! and NY-Non-Stop sucks almost as much! i hope it gets shaken up a bit.

i'm sure WLIW-21 viewers are damn glad to have PBS World as a sub! and the cost to air it cant be exorbitant since those shows are not exclusive to PBS World. they have been shown on PBS before. i wish i could receive WLIW-21 with my gigantic antenna in the kitchen! :(

NBC, CBS, ABC do not have to create brand-new programming to fill their subs. they just need to have commom sense and good taste to pick some oldies that ppl want to see. the current economy doesnt help, i know. but they are wasting their bandwidth anyway with their current subs. they should just run old shows for which they hold the rights. even stuff from the 60's would get ppl to tune in, i believe.

i have my PC hooked to my 37" LCD so i can watch LOTS of full TV episodes (a few in HD, mind you) from Hulu and YouTube. i watch Outer Limits, Star Trek, Daily Show, A Team, etc, etc. at my home, the 'Net is compensating for the fact OTA programming sucks.

just my personal opinion. :)

My daughter LOVES Qubo. I thought she was the only one who watched it.

Qubo is also a sub-channel of ION-31. i'm sure it's great fun for kids.

i have no prob with one main channel in HD and 1 or 2 subs in SD. the problem is the network's lack of will to create a good sub-channel. someone said the Weather sub-channel flopped.... no shite.... of course it did. it sucked! and NY-Non-Stop sucks almost as much! i hope it gets shaken up a bit.

i'm sure WLIW-21 viewers are damn glad to have PBS World as a sub! and the cost to air it cant be exorbitant since those shows are not exclusive to PBS World. they have been shown on PBS before. i wish i could receive WLIW-21 with my gigantic antenna in the kitchen! :(



I enjoy some WLIW shows, like This Old House. Why can't they show it in 16:9 though?

I see no reason whatsoever to manufacture sub-channels where none are needed. I also don't see then need to make an "SD" sub of the main HD-1 channel. Let the converter box take care of formatting. Why else would you need an SD sub for the same content?

A useful sub-channel for OTA might be time-shifting the main HD-1 carrier by three hours or so (even less) for someone to catch something at a more convenient time without having to resort to a hard drive setup. I'm not sure how program licensing issues would work or not work in that scenario, however.

But in the absence of a necessity for sub-channels, I applaud CBS for giving all the bandwidth possible to the main signal.

Speaking of wasted channels, someone explain to me why Ch9 is simulcasting the Yankee ALCS in Spanish and in SD?
Why not just watch the game in HD on 5.1 and press the SAP button?

Speaking of wasted channels, someone explain to me why Ch9 is simulcasting the Yankee ALCS in Spanish and in SD?
Why not just watch the game in HD on 5.1 and press the SAP button?

La razón está más allá de cualquier comprensión. Con excepción de la lengua hablada de los U.S.A sea español pronto.

¿Qué?

- Trip

¿Qué?

- Trip

LOL Just being a wise guy. Answering in Spanish

Translate por favor.

I figured. Thus why I answered en español. ;)

- Trip

Speaking of wasted channels, someone explain to me why Ch9 is simulcasting the Yankee ALCS in Spanish and in SD?
Why not just watch the game in HD on 5.1 and press the SAP button?

No SAP audio.

Translate por favor.

Google "bablefish" Free translator. Good tool to have. Many Language translate. From and to English

Then just cut and paste what i said into it. After choosing Spanish to English

"The reason is beyond any comprehension. With exception of the language spoken about the U.S.A be a prompt Spanish."

I think it lost something while traveling along the ether!

is obvious, why they transmitting the baseball game on 2 channels. cos they'll double their revenue targeting the latino market, thru advertisement - selling prime airtime.

strong tropospheric last 2 nights, picked up boston stations also albany ny, i logged a station from rhode island, this from queenz. :)

Lousy reception tonight for Ch.'s 2, 4, and 5 in Fairfield County. :(

La razón está más allá de cualquier comprensión. Con excepción de la lengua hablada de los U.S.A sea español pronto.

Let's see if I can do a better translation than babelfish:

The reason is beyond all comprehension, except that the spoken language of the U.S.A will soon be Spanish.

I'm a little suspicious that Babelfish generated the original Spanish phrase.

Pero, puesto que español no es mi lengua nativa, no quiero tirar piedras.

Let's see if I can do a better translation than babelfish:

The reason is beyond all comprehension, except that the spoken language of the U.S.A will soon be Spanish.

I'm a little suspicious that Babelfish generated the original Spanish phrase.

Pero, puesto que español no es mi lengua nativa, no quiero tirar piedras.

Wow my little phrase really got you guys going lol

suspicious? In what way?

Hey, Lexus 2108, truly you are born provocateur- giving good laugh, gracias senor.

I don't have much time for TV but last week I had troubles with Wabc7 also 11pix, I turned the roof Ant. from ESB 80 degree left to downtovn Brooklyn, beyond I can see about 8 RF towers, I use the otddor Ant. as coplimentary to my 2rabbit earsBow combi
ner hooked up to conv.box.
I also use 2-1 and 4-1 splitters in set up in order to offset overloading of signals, to make too strong ch. weaker but sufficiently strong and not to interfere with weaker ch. which do not become too weak, so the strong and weak can ride along through narrow path of Ant. into Kentucky derby type of stalls inside the conv.boxes.
The first stall 1or6-1.....2for cbs2....3for 3-where are thou?.....4for nbc4-1.2.4.... etc. now I get all majors and the coveted espanol ch.s especially with ingles subtitles.
Amazing, I find time to watch the spanish ch. and have no time for the ingles.Alo.

Hey, Lexus 2108, truly you are born provocateur- giving good laugh, gracias senor.

Oh I was just joking. These guys know me a long time on this board. I never thought that post would get this much attention.

Guess not much going on in the world of OTA NYC

Like I said before channel 11 is watchable now since I expanded one of my dipole antennas all the way up. It even made channel 13 stronger while not making channel 7 any weaker. Channel 7 likes it when the dipoles are down.

As for subchannels channel 7 needs to get rid of that live well network or stop broadcasting in 720p. Channel 7 is the most watched network with the worst picture quality. Also it does not make no sense for channel 11 to have two spanish sub channels. Should those channels be on channel 41 which I can never get, channel 47 or channel 68.

Here is a link to an interesting article from the December 1962 issue of Popular Mechanics entitled "Here Comes UHF-TV!"

Although obviously dated, it compares VHF & UHF reception and illustrates different types of UHF antennas.

Interestingly, it talks about people needing to buy $30 converter boxes to enable their VHF-only TVs to receive UHF broadcasts.

There are many parallels to the government enforcement of the DTV conversion. Apparently, even a decade after UHF was introduced, TV set manufacturers did not include UHF receivers.

John

http://books.google.com/books?id=4dsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=is+your+tv+set+ready+for+the+new+UHF+channels%3F&source=bl&ots=iuVZupYj74&sig=LpdJmI04apb-361VJNHEJbSyNoQ&hl=en&ei=fPzlSvqnB4zTlAe34NToCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Like I said before channel 11 is watchable now since I expanded one of my dipole antennas all the way up. It even made channel 13 stronger while not making channel 7 any weaker. Channel 7 likes it when the dipoles are down.

As for subchannels channel 7 needs to get rid of that live well network or stop broadcasting in 720p. Channel 7 is the most watched network with the worst picture quality. Also it does not make no sense for channel 11 to have two spanish sub channels. Should those channels be on channel 41 which I can never get, channel 47 or channel 68.

u are extremely naive to say just because WPIX's subchannels are spanish that they should be grouped with 41,47,or 68.

#1- LATV and Estrella are paying Tribune/WPIX to carry those subchannels. Tribune is having financial troubles and this helps their bottom line. Also gives those 2 channels exposure in the #1 DMA.

#2- The 2 channels compete with Telefutura, Univision, and Telemundo. Why would any say NBC owned Telemundo 47 want to carry a competing service on their subchannel?

#3- there are OTA viewers that can pickup 11 but not 41, 47, or 68. If that is the case, they still have access to spanish programming.

u are extremely naive to say just because WPIX's subchannels are spanish that they should be grouped with 41,47,or 68.

#1- LATV and Estrella are paying Tribune/WPIX to carry those subchannels. Tribune is having financial troubles and this helps their bottom line. Also gives those 2 channels exposure in the #1 DMA.

#2- The 2 channels compete with Telefutura, Univision, and Telemundo. Why would any say NBC owned Telemundo 47 want to carry a competing service on their subchannel?

#3- there are OTA viewers that can pickup 11 but not 41, 47, or 68. If that is the case, they still have access to spanish programming.

Couldn't have said it better!

u are extremely naive to say just because WPIX's subchannels are spanish that they should be grouped with 41,47,or 68.

#1- LATV and Estrella are paying Tribune/WPIX to carry those subchannels. Tribune is having financial troubles and this helps their bottom line. Also gives those 2 channels exposure in the #1 DMA.

#2- The 2 channels compete with Telefutura, Univision, and Telemundo. Why would any say NBC owned Telemundo 47 want to carry a competing service on their subchannel?

#3- there are OTA viewers that can pickup 11 but not 41, 47, or 68. If that is the case, they still have access to spanish programming.

There seems to be more Spanish programing then English now. I understand soon (next 10 or so years) The main language of USA will be Spanish.

BUT NYC needs more English programing. English is still the main language here.

I can not get the CC to work with English subtitles for my aunt. I tried CC3 and 1 to 6 and nothing worked.

There seems to be more Spanish programing then English now. I understand soon (next 10 or so years) The main language of USA will be Spanish.

BUT NYC needs more English programing. English is still the main language here.

I can not get the CC to work with English subtitles for my aunt. I tried CC3 and 1 to 6 and nothing worked.

programmers & networks will put on whatever they think the market wants/needs and will generate profit, not what lexus2108 prefers. on the cable dial there are something like 300 english channels and 30 spanish channels. on OTA the ratio of english to spanish channels is different because there is a greater # of latino households cannot afford cable.

see this link to get an understanding why NY and other markets have lot of hispanic programming
http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/MarketTrack/Top_25_Hispanic_Markets.asp

I have deleted a number of off topic, completely unnecessary comments, and suspended members.

Further like comments will result in loss of the ability to participate at AVS.

Just learned that the FCC has approved WABC's application to install a backup transmission facility using its old analog antenna at 4TS.

The application was made just days ago. What I don't understand is that the station applied for its ESB, main facility to increase power from 11.69kW to 27.0kW - this application was made at the end of June. The Construction Permit still hasn't been granted and the status continues to be pending. I realize that the Commission has to study and determine the impact of increasing a station's power, but with all the problems so many viewers have had since the station ignorantly left UHF for V, one would think and hope that there would be a more timely response to the application.

It likely causes impermissible interference to WNJB-8 and so ABC would have been asked to modify the application either to eliminate the interference or to show an interference acceptance agreement.

- Trip

What's so strange is that the Commission allowed WABC to use Channel 7 because the plan was for WNJB (8) to "co-locate" at 4TS this month. The station reneged, which then, in my opinion obviates WABC using Channel 7.

WABC should put all of us out of our misery and move back to UHF and be done with its crazed obsession with using Channel 7 - which by the way, goes all the way back to when Edward Noble founded ABC!

Just learned that the FCC has approved WABC's application to install a backup transmission facility using its old analog antenna at 4TS.how long till this backup is implemented?

WABC should put all of us out of our misery and move back to UHF and be done with its crazed obsession with using Channel 7maybe that's their "Plan D".... :D

how long till this backup is implemented?

maybe that's their "Plan D".... :D

Have no idea when it will be fired up.

The back up is authorized only for Channel 7.

If the station eventually throws in the towel on VHF, it will first have
to select a UHF channel that can be used and file an application with the Commission.

Oh I was just joking. These guys know me a long time on this board. I never thought that post would get this much attention.

Guess not much going on in the world of OTA NYC

I know, Lexus,I know. I have seen your HD E.T.type antena headset gear picture, and your wife' rolling eyes, gracias senor; Alo

There is nothing better than experimentation until the nueva digital box becomes obsolete never dying topic. so I went with outdor Ant. back to ESB

I know, Lexus,I know. I have seen your HD E.T.type antena headset gear picture, and your wife' rolling eyes, gracias senor; Alo

you saved that?

No, my home PC does not have the capabilities,97 ? 98W,I keep it in my head,Alo.

One more time in regard to CBC2-1, most respondents are apparently HD wievers, and I have to agree with you gentlemen, as Trip put it, the one ch. does give pristine PQ compared to other TV subch., however, most users are catode/conv.boxTV OTA wievers for whom there is no difference in PQ of subch. therefore they would welcome more subch. the happy-go-lucky TVRemote scroll surfers.
Considering possibilities that 25% HD wievers count to produce 75% GNP, 1main ch. no subch. as ch.2CBC maintains would be beneficial to ch.2, but if the 25% HD users bring in 35-40% of GNP- GrossNationalProduct, then the 75% ovalTV/conv. box counting for 60-65% of GNP the happy-go surfing bored TV crowd spell troubles for the dinosaurs of CBS or any one ch. TV unless there is following.
The Nielsen ratings basically function on Andy Varhol quip of 15min. fame, if you see 15min of 1/2hr.-1hr sitcom, or 2-3hrs of entert.sport event, you have seen ad the advertisement-TV gurus want you to see to be exposed to.
The second most important matter in regard to infommercial is to be exposed to the ads, to see and hear it and hopefully in future to buy it, one main ch. gives less chance to see it than more sub ch. that is why we see one commercial on 2-3 stations same time.
Let's see what happens in future, seem to me there is not much future for 1ch only
unless existing programs rating equal the time of competitors ratings.Alo

Huh? Where did you get this?

"most users are catode/conv.boxTV OTA wievers for whom there is no difference in PQ of subch. therefore they would welcome
more subch."

That's quite an assumption you've made there. CBS is running full 1080 I with superior video, which is very obvious when viewing live sports events.


It may be true that there are certain areas where economics have limited the sales of modern HDTV's. However, you can't state with certainty that most viewers still receive HDTV signals with convertor boxes and NTSC CRT televisions. Go in to any store still selling TV's in the NY area and you'll be hard pressed to find CRT televisions for sale and those which are for sale are bottom priced units with limited appeal. The cost of LCD HDTV's continue to drop. I say, good for CBS who would rather provide a superior signal than 2 or more inferior signals with inferior programming.

Other than Jersey Public Television I find most of what is being broadcast over HD 2, 3 etc channels worthless. The novelty has worn off and as of yesterday all channels which #1, don't transmit English language programming (I speak only English and so it serves no purpose for me to have to scan through a dozen or so channels with no programming I can understand, so I've deleted those channels.) and HD2 channels which are only rebroadcasts of a group owners same market signals. IE; WNYW and WWOR's HD 2 channels. I've also deleted WNET's HD 2 channel. I have no young children at home any longer and to be honest I can't see the point of running children’s programming 24 hours a day, especially when the HD 1 also is airing children’s programming. At this point I have to ask, how many small children are watching WNET’s HD 2 between 9 PM & 5 AM?

Huh? Where did you get this?

"most users are catode/conv.boxTV OTA wievers for whom there is no difference in PQ of subch. therefore they would welcome
more subch."

That's quite an assumption you've made there. CBS is running full 1080 I with superior video, which is very obvious when viewing live sports events.

From a friend who works for WNBC, I will pass this on to you. With HD signals being transmitted, many cable systems are now using OTA reception as the source for retransmission instead of fiber. What that means is that even for viewers who receive their signals over cable or satellite outlets, the video quality on channel 2 is superior to the competition.


It may be true that there are certain areas where economics have limited the sales of modern HDTV's. However, you can't state with certainty that most viewers still receive HDTV signals with convertor boxes and NTSC CRT televisions. Go in to any store still selling TV's in the NY area and you'll be hard pressed to find CRT televisions for sale and those which are for sale are bottom priced units with limited appeal. The cost of LCD HDTV's continue to drop. I say, good for CBS who would rather provide a superior signal than 2 or more inferior signals with inferior programming.

Other than Jersey Public Television I find most of what is being broadcast over HD 2, 3 etc channels worthless. The novelty has worn off and as of yesterday all channels which #1, don't transmit English language programming (I speak only English and so it serves no purpose for me to have to scan through a dozen or so channels with no programming I can understand, so I've deleted those channels.) and HD2 channels which are only rebroadcasts of a group owners same market signals. IE; WNYW and WWOR's HD 2 channels. I've also deleted WNET's HD 2 channel. I have no young children at home any longer and to be honest I can't see the point of running children’s programming 24 hours a day, especially when the HD 1 also is airing children’s programming. At this point I have to ask, how many small children are watching WNET’s HD 2 between 9 PM & 5 AM?

ones that can not sleep? My guess

The switch to upper VHF has been a mixed bag so far. In Fairfield County where I setup my parents' OTA unit, it has tremendously improved reception. ABC, Pix11, and Ch 13 now come in consistently, the UHF channels remain strong or better.

However, I just moved over the weekend to a new place in lower Westchester. My room on the second floor has no cable, just the first floor, and the upper vhf channels have been spotty, especially ABC and PIX. The only thing that worked was having the dipoles fully extended and in the "down" position. This gets in the way of the door however.

The only thing I can think of is buying a small table and sticking it next to the window, with a southern view, and putting the antenna there. The antenna is one of the Terk "Silver Sensor" style antennas. Almost all the NY UHF channels except WLIW 21 come in fine.

Any suggestions?

Any suggestions?

indoor antennas might not solve your problem.... i've tried many!

i have settled with the Winegard HD-7694P (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7694P&d=Winegard-HD-7694P-High-Definition-VHFUHF-HDHD769-SeriesAntenna-%28HD7694P%29&sku=615798398446&mc=03), placed indoors, on the 3rd floor of a building (10 miles away from ESB). guess what? i still cannot get CW-11. this antenna, however, solved my problems with ABC-7 and WNET-13. and i get all UHF stuff very well.

good luck!

Is CW-11 ever going to boost there power? They should since so many can't get it. With a antenna like that you should have had no problems. You probably can't put it outdoors. I can't put no antenna's outdoors either. I can get CW-11 but it is the weakest after moving one of the dipoles all the way up.

The only thing I can think of is buying a small table and sticking it next to the window, with a southern view, and putting the antenna there.

Sounds like a plan, as a first step.

The antenna is one of the Terk "Silver Sensor" style antennas.

Amplified or unamplified version?
Reason I ask is an amp can sometimes make a difference even on short cable runs, if the noise in the amp is lower than the noise in your tuner you will be able to get a lock on a lower power signal.

Almost all the NY UHF channels except WLIW 21 come in fine.

WLIW is transmitting from Plainview, L.I. and chances are it may be too far off aim from the ESB (and too far away) for you to get. Go to tvfool.com to see the details of the signals available at your location. (Put in your exact address and antenna height for the most accurate report.)

Is CW-11 ever going to boost there power? They should since so many can't get it. With a antenna like that you should have had no problems. You probably can't put it outdoors. I can't put no antenna's outdoors either. I can get CW-11 but it is the weakest after moving one of the dipoles all the way up.

If you want to try some thing to get ch 11 better then try this.

If you have a set of rabbit ears, pull out the rods to to aprox 13.75 inches from the tip of each rod to the center. The rods should be horizontal or like flat. The total from tip to tip should be 27.5 inches. Then move it around & turn it & see how well you get ch11. That should be aprox the exact wave of ch 11 on those rabbit ears. So you have it maxed for ch 11.

If you try that & it helps; I can give you other tips how to connect it & not lose the other channels, if you want.

looks like pbs wliw ch 21 has raised their power, i can pickup the signal from the back off my yagi antenna, as before the signal was too low.

i forgot congrats to ny yankees they were the better team!!

looks like pbs wliw ch 21 has raised their power, i can pickup the signal from the back off my yagi antenna, as before the signal was too low.

How much did the raise the power by? Do you live in Queens? I wonder if we can get it now? TV fool shows NO raise in power

Always wished they would put a repeater for WLIW in NYC

How much did the raise the power by? Do you live in Queens? I wonder if we can get it now? TV fool shows NO raise in power

Always wished they would put a repeater for WLIW in NYC


The station is owned by WNET, Channel 13 and the organization is having deep financial problems.

Just take a look at this article.

http://neptune.observer.com/2009/media/mandatory-furloughs-wnet

The station is owned by WNET, Channel 13 and the organization is having deep financial problems.

Just take a look at this article.

http://neptune.observer.com/2009/media/mandatory-furloughs-wnet

WOW you would think channel 13 would of had the foresight to add Channel 21 to NYC.

I guess money donations have dropped for them

WOW you would think channel 13 would of had the foresight to add Channel 21 to NYC.

I guess money donations have dropped for them


and pay for the transmitter with what? 13 & 21 have extensive cable carriage from central NJ to hudson valley and parts of CT. the 5 boros have something like 90%+ cable penetration.

and pay for the transmitter with what? 13 & 21 have extensive cable carriage from central NJ to hudson valley and parts of CT. the 5 boros have something like 90%+ cable penetration.

they got 1. Why not two. PBS is free with grants from our government. no? And private donations

they got 1. Why not two. PBS is free with grants from our government. no? And private donations

Got one what? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I have to think that WNET simply recycled the analog 13 gear that was already in place on Empire for digital.

- Trip

i just wish they carried "PBS World" on both ch13 and ch21....

Got one what? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I have to think that WNET simply recycled the analog 13 gear that was already in place on Empire for digital.

- Trip

Trip, no correction necessary, as usual, you're absolutely right!

First, the old analog, VHF Combiner, which had WNET as a tenant, is now being used by digital WNET along with WABC and WPIX.

Second, WNET's analog transmitter was reconfigured to digital.

One half of the transmitter was converted to digital operation before the transition while allowing the remaing half to continue to be operated at full power. After the transition, the other half of the transmitter was then converted.

they got 1. Why not two. PBS is free with grants from our government. no? And private donations

even if WNET/WLIW wanted to add a 2nd transmitter in NYC, it's not easy and i'm sure they are not even thinking about it. WLIW has decent coverage to the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and east side of manhattan. the numbers of viewers gained would not result in additional donations to cover the cost of running the transmitter.

even if WNET/WLIW wanted to add a 2nd transmitter in NYC, it's not easy and i'm sure they are not even thinking about it. WLIW has decent coverage to the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and east side of manhattan. the numbers of viewers gained would not result in additional donations to cover the cost of running the transmitter.

We are in Queens and can not get WLIW at all.

ALL NYC towers come in at 80% and above

My aunt would really enjoy WLIW.

AND yes I tried the new C2 Clearstream antenna. No difference then the old one. So it went back to store.

If WLIW went to NYC then she would get it for sure.

We still do not know how much WLIW boosted power as other poster stated. If at all

Anyway our discussion is meaningless. I e-mailed WLIW and asked them. Will post the answer

According to Trip's compilation of FCC records:

WLIW applied for a increase in power on 6/23/08 - to go from 89.9kW up to 251kW.

From the files I found, as of yet, the FCC has not granted this request.

Therefore, if someone is enjoying better reception of the station, enjoy it for as long as it lasts, it's probably due to atmospheric conditions.

lexus, i can pickup 21 signal ok , i think it could be the leafs are gone from the trees. i dont have my antenna pointed toward long island, instead is pointed northwest, towards upstate ny, the reason is i dont have a line of sight, i have co-ops across the street from me. the building bounce the signal, thats how i can pickup connecticut and long island. i have a channel master uhf yagi type antenna is not too long, only 55 inches, i have a winegard 269 preamp is good for overload problems. what suprises me is that this antenna is very good on vhf 7,11,13 come in at 100% i can get uhf station from hartford depending on atmospheric conditions.

WLIW applied for a increase in power on 6/23/08 - to go from 89.9kW up to 251kW.

great news! how likely are they to be granted the boost? is there any channels in the way? reason why i ask is because ABC's request resulted in nothing.

According to Trip's compilation of FCC records:

WLIW applied for a increase in power on 6/23/08 - to go from 89.9kW up to 251kW.

From the files I found, as of yet, the FCC has not granted this request.

Therefore, if someone is enjoying better reception of the station, enjoy it for as long as it lasts, it's probably due to atmospheric conditions.

What would that do to the range? 3times further?

What would that do to the range? 3times further?

No. But it will give you about 4 or 5 db more signal with which to try to overcome any RF noise that you're dealing with. People with weak signals (fringe areas) might get more reliable reception, but I expect that people in strong signal areas who are dealing with severe multipath will have stronger reflected signals that continue to interfere with their stronger primary signals.

What surprises me is that this antenna is very good on VHF. Channels 7, 11 and 13 come in at 100%. I can get the UHF stations from Hartford, depending on atmospheric conditions.

Seeing how you're getting those three high band VHF stations so well, are you sure the Connecticut station isn't WTNH-DT (ABC)? They're on channel 10, licensed to New Haven and transmit from Madmere Mountain in Hamden, CT. They still ID on the air as NewsChannel 8, just like in their analog days.

No. But it will give you about 4 or 5 db more signal with which to try to overcome any RF noise that you're dealing with. People with weak signals (fringe areas) might get more reliable reception, but I expect that people in strong signal areas who are dealing with severe multipath will have stronger reflected signals that continue to interfere with their stronger primary signals.

What about people who do not get any signal from WLIW?

5db is not alot. So I am thinking it will not help the people who can not get it at all 15db could of helped imo

What about people who do not get any signal from WLIW?

5db is not alot. So I am thinking it will not help the people who can not get it at all 15db could of helped imo

It actually works out closer to 4.5dB (4.46dB to be exact;))

Keeping in mind that a 3dB gain is doubling the power, I think this actually may make a significant difference - and certainly for all those that were on the cusp of the digital cliff when receiving WLIW, the increase should bring home a reliable solid lock for them.

Look at it this way, if you were comparing two different antennas and there was a 4.5dB difference in gain between them, don't you think that would equate to a significant difference in performance?

It actually works out closer to 4.5dB (4.46dB to be exact;))

Keeping in mind that a 3dB gain is doubling the power, I think this actually may make a significant difference - and certainly for all those that were on the cusp of the digital cliff when receiving WLIW, the increase should bring home a reliable solid lock for them.

Look at it this way, if you were comparing two different antennas and there was a 4.5dB difference in gain between them, don't you think that would equate to a significant difference in performance?

Well she used to get WLIW sometimes on Analog. Nothing at all with Digital. Yes I moved Antenna closer and different spots. It is too bad the WLIW signal is 180 degrees from all other stations in NYC.

She is 86 and would enjoy lawernce welk and other shows like that.

Yes I changed the cable to HD ready cable and got 3 to 6 more signal strength. I did everything I could. Even tried the clearstream 2. Bought a BIG WOOD POLE to hold it up. Now all I got is a BIG POLE. It is for sale lol. Maybe Ebay? hehe

To be honest she gets 31 to 33 channels including subs. She gets all the Majors in very strong. So just that is better then analog. Guess we should count our blessings.

Here is a copy of the TVfool for her. You will see WLIW is -55.5 She does get channel 17.1 which is -52.3 But it just comes in on the box at 66 signal strength. At 60 we will get pixlation.

HERE is The TV FOOL
http://i33.tinypic.com/v7wh9d.png

Well she used to get WLIW sometimes on Analog. Nothing at all with Digital. Yes I moved Antenna closer and different spots. It is too bad the WLIW signal is 180 degrees from all other stations in NYC.

She is 86 and would enjoy lawernce welk and other shows like that.

Yes I changed the cable to HD ready cable and got 3 to 6 more signal strength. I did everything I could. Even tried the clearstream 2. Bought a BIG WOOD POLE to hold it up. Now all I got is a BIG POLE. It is for sale lol. Maybe Ebay? hehe

To be honest she gets 31 to 33 channels including subs. She gets all the Majors in very strong. So just that is better then analog. Guess we should count our blessings.

Can't tell if your antenna is outdoors or indoors.

Since Channel 21 is important to your aunt, have you thought of a second antenna aimed toward Plainview, LI to pick up 21?

Just a thought.

Can't tell if your antenna is outdoors or indoors.

Since Channel 21 is important to your aunt, have you thought of a second antenna aimed toward Plainview, LI to pick up 21?

Just a thought.

Indoor Terk 55

She lives in a apartment. Her window faces NYC. The rest of the building is Where 21 is coming from.

The terk is an indoor/outdoor antenna. I tried the clearstream2 OUTDOOR antenna (inside) with same results as terk. So I returned it.

They used to have a MASTER antenna on top of the building but seems managment made a deal with RCN and took it down. To force people to get cable.

Just spoke to her. Yes she would love WLIW. It is too bad. Her type of programs.

I posted her TVfool on my last post for you to look at

Indoor Terk 55

She lives in a apartment. Her window faces NYC. The rest of the building is Where 21 is coming from.

The terk is an indoor/outdoor antenna. I tried the clearstream2 OUTDOOR antenna (inside) with same results as terk. So I returned it.

They used to have a MASTER antenna on top of the building but seems managment made a deal with RCN and took it down. To force people to get cable.

Just spoke to her. Yes she would love WLIW. It is too bad. Her type of programs.

I posted her TVfool on my last post for you to look at


What floor is she on?

If that chennel is that important, I would buy an out door yagi uhf antenna & see how well it works. If it works well in the floor then i would try it inder a bed.

What floor is she on?

If that chennel is that important, I would buy an out door yagi uhf antenna & see how well it works. If it works well in the floor then i would try it inder a bed.

Sounds like she's got a whole building between her and WLIW, and if she can't pick up a reflected signal from her westerly facing window she's probably screwed.

Unless...

I bet if you built a Grey-Hoverman (or an mclapp 4-bay bowtie) without a reflector, on some PVC and put it on the roof aimed due east-west it would get all the UHF - both from the ESB & WLIW. (And probably then some) Then join it to her Terk indoors with a UVSJ,
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal%20Combiners&sku=UVSJ
so the Terk is getting her VHF from the ESB as it is now. shouldn't cost you $20 :)

Bring the cable in the window if you have to.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=13&p=WRFC200&d=Eagle-Aspen-FC300LX-Slimline-Flexible-8-Inch-Flat-RG6-Coax-Window-Cable-(FC300LX)#xview

All's you gotta do is schmoose the super a little:D

Is anyone seeing a signal on channel 26? WRNN-LD filed a license app for a highly directional channel 26 signal. I'm wondering if it's simulcasting WRNN-48.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1302862.html

- Trip

Is anyone seeing a signal on channel 26? WRNN-LD filed a license app for a highly directional channel 26 signal. I'm wondering if it's simulcasting WRNN-48.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1302862.html

- Trip

Nada!

My antennas are oriented to the S.S.W. to pick up ESB and 4TS transmissions; Long Island is East of me.

What floor is she on?

If that chennel is that important, I would buy an out door yagi uhf antenna & see how well it works. If it works well in the floor then i would try it inder a bed.

A high floor of the building. Can not put a 200 pound antenna in the apartment lol

pic:

http://www.empresal.com/ebaypictures/antennanra3000B.jpg

Is anyone seeing a signal on channel 26? WRNN-LD filed a license app for a highly directional channel 26 signal. I'm wondering if it's simulcasting WRNN-48.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1302862.html

- Trip

WRNN-TV is an independent television station licensed to Kingston, New York, USA. Broadcasting on digital channel 48, WRNN broadcasts a schedule of mainly infomercials and home shopping programming. The station's studios are located in Rye Brook, New York, and its transmitter is based on Beacon Mountain. WRNN also programs a low-power translator station, WRNN-LP (analog channel 57), based in Nyack, New York.

NOT missing much if we don't get it huh?

Pete Putman has a new article on hdtvexpert.com about his house calls to fix DTV reception. One visit was to the rooftop of a house in Wall, NJ.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/UpOnTheRoof.html

By the way, for any fans of "Ask This Old House", I heard on the next episode (7:30PM Saturday on WNET Channel 13) Kevin O'Connor is going to make a house call on someone with poor DTV reception.

Is anyone seeing a signal on channel 26? WRNN-LD filed a license app for a highly directional channel 26 signal. I'm wondering if it's simulcasting WRNN-48.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1302862.html

- Trip

From Poughkeepsie, I only receive 48 (11 miles line of sight from Mt. Beacon).

A high floor of the building. Can not put a 200 pound antenna in the apartment lol

pic:

http://www.empresal.com/ebaypictures/antennanra3000B.jpg

WOW that is a big antenna.

But that is not what I was talking about.

The antenna akahooper stated would be a good one to try. It will fit in the back of a closet or behind the curtain at the window.

How well did she receive ch 21 when it was analog?

Did it have any ghost in it or was it just snowy?

Pete Putman has a new article on hdtvexpert.com about his house calls to fix DTV reception. One visit was to the rooftop of a house in Wall, NJ.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/UpOnTheRoof.html

It's amazing to me to see the antennas that he's using in Wall, NJ to pick up NYC broadcasts. I'm actually just a few miles closer to Empire and I'm using Winegard's largest dual-band antenna (HD7698P) in my attic, and I was having so much trouble with WNET that I gave up and pulled it from my tuners' channel lists. Most other channels are acceptable, though. He's using two antennas that, combined, total up to far less boom length and similarly less gain, and he's picking up all of the stations that I'm struggling to receive. I just don't get it.

I really wish I had access to a spectrum analyzer like he has. I expect that it would really uncover some issues that I just can't detect without the right test equipment. But that puppy runs over a couple of grand - that's serious $$$! I doubt that I can even rent one somewhere for a reasonable rate. Anybody have any ideas about this?

WOW that is a big antenna.

But that is not what I was talking about.

The antenna akahooper stated would be a good one to try. It will fit in the back of a closet or behind the curtain at the window.

How well did she receive ch 21 when it was analog?

Did it have any ghost in it or was it just snowy?

21 was in and out as a analog station

Link to the antenna you are talking about pls

It's amazing to me to see the antennas that he's using in Wall, NJ to pick up NYC broadcasts. I'm actually just a few miles closer to Empire and I'm using Winegard's largest dual-band antenna (HD7698P) in my attic, and I was having so much trouble with WNET that I gave up and pulled it from my tuners' channel lists. Most other channels are acceptable, though. He's using two antennas that, combined, total up to far less boom length and similarly less gain, and he's picking up all of the stations that I'm struggling to receive. I just don't get it.

I really wish I had access to a spectrum analyzer like he has. I expect that it would really uncover some issues that I just can't detect without the right test equipment. But that puppy runs over a couple of grand - that's serious $$$! I doubt that I can even rent one somewhere for a reasonable rate. Anybody have any ideas about this?


Get your antenna out of the attic and higher in the air.

This isn't magic, it's physics. He has better toys in his toolbox and the experience to know what is most likely to work. The "average Joe" has neither.

FWIW, a basic SA starts at around $700 on ebay for a Chinese import. You can usually find a handheld SA such as a Sencore 1454 or 1456 for $300-$600 if you're patient and persistent.

Get your antenna out of the attic and higher in the air.

This isn't magic, it's physics. He has better toys in his toolbox and the experience to know what is most likely to work. The "average Joe" has neither.

FWIW, a basic SA starts at around $700 on ebay for a Chinese import. You can usually find a handheld SA such as a Sencore 1454 or 1456 for $300-$600 if you're patient and persistent.

Maybe he can't just like I can't put an antenna on the roof for my aunt. Some places won't allow that.

If I thought a C4 clearstream would work I would of tried it. The C2 did NO better then the Terk 55. Inside. Strange as it may seem.

I just bought a portable spectrum analyzer on eBay and I love it. Sencore SLM1456CM (on ProjectSHO89's advice). I'll be in Fair Lawn around the New Year to visit relatives, but it's probably too far for me to come visit you with it, unfortunately.

If there's someone closer who might like me to visit with it, though, I can discuss with my parents and see.

- Trip

I just bought a portable spectrum analyzer on eBay and I love it. Sencore SLM1456CM (on ProjectSHO89's advice). I'll be in Fair Lawn around the New Year to visit relatives, but it's probably too far for me to come visit you with it, unfortunately.

If there's someone closer who might like me to visit with it, though, I can discuss with my parents and see.

- Trip

What can it do for you ? Just curious:D

Well, it does more than I use it for.

The key features are that it'll show what the signals look like just like an ordinary spectrum analyzer. But on top of that, assuming it can decode the signal, it'll provide a SNR (signal-noise ratio) reading and BER (bit-error rate) reading. It's an extremely useful tool and I just love it. If I didn't have school work to do, I probably would not have put it down at all since I got it.

- Trip

Get your antenna out of the attic and higher in the air.

This isn't magic, it's physics.

Like Lexus said, it's not always that easy. In my case, I'm in a historic preservation district, and SOMEBODY might get their panties all wadded up about this. As per the HPD's rules, I can't have a roof antenna or a dish. However, there are people who have them anyway, and apparently get away with it. I'm trying to avoid the the dispute. Besides, attic antennas are easier to install/maintain.

He has better toys in his toolbox and the experience to know what is most likely to work. The "average Joe" has neither.

A scientifically-minded average Joe starts off "above average," and toys like these can be purchased, rented or borrowed. Once such toys are in-hand, "Joe" can gain some experience with them, and the next thing you know, he's getting the job done, just like the big kids do with their big toys.

These solutions are not so far out of reach as your initial comments seemed to suggest. With that said, I appreciate that you posted an update.

FWIW, a basic SA starts at around $700 on ebay for a Chinese import. You can usually find a handheld SA such as a Sencore 1454 or 1456 for $300-$600 if you're patient and persistent.

Hmmm... $300 to $600 for a new toy, or $20 to $60 per month, times "forever," to the evil cable/satellite companies? I can always resell the new toy after it has done its job.

Then again, I might just try the roof mount first!

I just bought a portable spectrum analyzer on eBay and I love it. Sencore SLM1456CM (on ProjectSHO89's advice). I'll be in Fair Lawn around the New Year to visit relatives, but it's probably too far for me to come visit you with it, unfortunately.

If there's someone closer who might like me to visit with it, though, I can discuss with my parents and see.

- Trip

I spent my first six years in Fair Lawn: 2-16 30th St! (That was nearly 40 years ago!)

Agreed that it's too far. I wouldn't ask you to travel like that, unless you were really up for a road trip to the shore and would accept a ride in both directions. And a good meal. ;)

I spent my first six years in Fair Lawn: 2-16 30th St! (That was nearly 40 years ago!)

Agreed that it's too far. I wouldn't ask you to travel like that, unless you were really up for a road trip to the shore and would accept a ride in both directions. And a good meal. ;)

I got your e-mail and will answer there after running it by my parents.

And I'm staying with my grandparents on Morlot Avenue. Not a bad place for reception, I've found.

- Trip

From Poughkeepsie, I only receive 48 (11 miles line of sight from Mt. Beacon).

Hey Nervous, I think you're exaggerating! If you get WRNN-48, surely you get WTBY-27 as well! What would we Poughkeepsians do without our 5 SD Gospel channels (WTBY), 1 SD infomercial channel (WRNN), and 1 SD Chinese Propaganda (WRNN-48.2) channel!

With a little work you should be able to pull in W42AE for some Analog PBS goodness, too!

It's all good! Who needs commercial National Network OTA TV anyway?!? Apparently not the roughly 250,000 residents of Southern Dutchess County.

My point is that antenna location is a lot like real estate's three most important things...

Just because you either desire to put antenna in an attic because its easier or do not have the alternative of mounting one externally, doesn't mean that an antenna will work in the attic. If the signal isn't physically present in adequate strength and quality in the attic, you simply cannot receive it in that location regardless of the antenna you try. That's the bottom line.

Location, location, location.

Hey, Trip needs a field project for his new playtoy....

What can it do for you ? Just curious:D

Think of it as an oscilloscope for the RF spectrum.

At basic levels, it allows the operator to 1) Measure signal power and signal-to-noise ratios - both critical parameters for digital reception and 2) SEE a graphical representation of the signal - ideal for analyzing multi-path related reception problems.

Beyond that, it depends on the individual device's specific features.

For example, consider the following photo of my 1454:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l223/projectsho89/Antenna%20Stuff/Ch_24_26_Sencore.jpg

These are UHF channels 24 and 26 in St louis at a location where there is no LOS to the towers. The signals are reflected off a nearby hill and some trees.

The signal on the right, channel 26, is of excellent quality with a relatively smooth top of the waveform. In contrast, the waveform on the left, channel 24, is ridden with multi-path and would likely be broken reception-wise for tuners that don't have good capabilities of dealing with such a distorted signal. My little Artec T18AR, BTW, handles it pretty well.

When installing an antenna and using an SA, you'd adjust the antenna so that all the desired channels feature the best combination of signal strength (amplitude) and quality (flatness) making whatever compromises might be necessary to give the best overall signals.

Hey Nervous, I think you're exaggerating! If you get WRNN-48, surely you get WTBY-27 as well!

Sure I can get WTBY. I can pick that one up using a paperclip as an antenna. I was replying to Trip's inquiry about WRNN-LD 26. What I meant was I can only get 48 (WRNN) and not 26 (WRNN-LD). After looking at the coverage map or WRNN-LD, I realize I am too far upstate to pick it up anyway (and WTBY is adjacent on 27).

For example, consider the following photo of my 1454: [...]

The signal on the right, channel 26, is of excellent quality with a relatively smooth top of the waveform. In contrast, the waveform on the left, channel 24, is ridden with multi-path and would likely be broken reception-wise for tuners that don't have good capabilities of dealing with such a distorted signal.

very nice toy, indeed. could save someone lots of work by cutting the amount of guesses to a minimum. too bad it's expensive.

very nice toy, indeed. could save someone lots of work by cutting the amount of guesses to a minimum. too bad it's expensive.

The best tools for a specific job are rarely inexpensive. Your independent mechanic probably spent at least $2500 for that SnapOn scan tool so he can work on your car's computerized control systems. You can buy a scanner unit for $200, but the SnapOn, in the hands of a trained person, will run circles around the $200 unit from the auto parts store.

I lucked out and got my well-used Secore off Craigslist for a bit over $200. It was $1500 list price brand new. Even after buying a power supply and new faceplate lens from Sencore and making a new rechargeable battery pack, I still have less than $300 invested.

The best tools for a specific job are rarely inexpensive. Your independent mechanic probably spent at least $2500 for that SnapOn scan tool so he can work on your car's computerized control systems.

True, but the independent mechanic bought that tool for his business. I doubt any shadetree mechanic would buy that for use at home. Pete Putman probably bought his spectrum analyzer for his business, ROAM Consulting LLC. There's probably not much demand for a scaled back cheaper device aimed at non-commercial consumers. That's why eBay exists. ;-)

21 was in and out as a analog station

Link to the antenna you are talking about pls

Hello lexus,
The details/dim's of the Grey-Hoverman I am referring to can be found on my site, on SBGH-6 page. Link in my sig.
While not ideal, for indoor use you could just bend up some wire to make the elements and screw to a board I suppose.

Here's a couple of youtube vids of a properly dimensioned mclapp 4-bay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8jsDxNgHn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcUSW2l6MSI
Again, you wouldn't want the reflector(s).

And a technique for straightening wire that makes it much easier to make nice elements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8HoeP9beYE

Hello lexus,
The details/dim's of the Grey-Hoverman I am referring to can be found on my site, on SBGH-6 page. Link in my sig.
While not ideal, for indoor use you could just bend up some wire to make the elements and screw to a board I suppose.

Here's a couple of youtube vids of a properly dimensioned mclapp 4-bay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8jsDxNgHn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcUSW2l6MSI
Again, you wouldn't want the reflector(s).

And a technique for straightening wire that makes it much easier to make nice elements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8HoeP9beYE
And this will do better then a Terk 55 or Clearsteam c2?

And this will do better then a Terk 55 or Clearsteam c2?

In the apartment, with no reflector - hard to say.
What's nice is it's almost too freakin easy to bend up some wire and try a Grey-Hoverman w/o a reflector. 10' of wire, 6 screws & flat washers, a balun and a board. Don't worry about the feedgap of 3.5" this isn't critical. Anywhere close will do, so you could use a 1"x4" to mount to, ending up with around 3" will be fine.

Like David-the-dtv-ma says, putting an eye-hook in the end of the board & hanging it in the window would be giving it your best shot short of getting it on the roof. (You still may need the Terk for it's VHF, and join the two with a UVSJ.)

What I was originally saying is to bribe the super with a 6-pack (12-pack?:D) and sneak one of these on the roof, where it can receive UHF from both directions.

And this will do better then a Terk 55 or Clearsteam c2?

I don't know about those, but this link has some comparisons to other commercial antennas.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/performance.htm

The specs are here:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm

In the apartment, with no reflector - hard to say.
What's nice is it's almost too freakin easy to bend up some wire and try a Grey-Hoverman w/o a reflector. 10' of wire, 6 screws & flat washers, a balun and a board. Don't worry about the feedgap of 3.5" this isn't critical. Anywhere close will do, so you could use a 1"x4" to mount to, ending up with around 3" will be fine.

Like David-the-dtv-ma says, putting an eye-hook in the end of the board & hanging it in the window would be giving it your best shot short of getting it on the roof. (You still may need the Terk for it's VHF, and join the two with a UVSJ.)

What I was originally saying is to bribe the super with a 6-pack (12-pack?:D) and sneak one of these on the roof, where it can receive UHF from both directions.

They wont do it period. I did try the terk and C2 in window with no difference at all.

Would hate to do all that work and drive 2:30 hours to find out it is the same thing

21 was in and out as a analog station

Link to the antenna you are talking about pls

This antenna would fit in a closet.

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-8-bay-uhf-antenna-hdtv-guaranteed-to-out-perform-all-other-outdoor-18-elements-tv-aerial-for-local-offair-digital-fringe-reception-red-zone-part-super-g1483-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6356.html

This one might fit under a bed.

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-mxu59-uhf-antenna-extreme-deep-fringe-maxus-59-electronic-elements-directional-tv-outdoor-television-signal-local-offair-digital-hdtv-reception-aerial-blue-zone-part-mxu59-refurbished-item-p-6565.html

But the side ways V or really < on the end of the antenna might stand up to high to fit inder a bed. but if the bed is in the corner of the bed room the < could go in the very corner behind the bed.

What kind of antenna was she using when was receiving 21 while it was on analog?

If the 21 digital transmitter is still using the broadcast antenna they used for analog she should receive something from 21 now that it is digital.

An indoor amp may help but it will need to have a low noise amp. Channel master had one model 3042. But I can not find it available on the web. The noise was as good as the our door pre amps at 3.5 db noise.

K mart has had them but theirs was not as good with a noise of 5 db.



Sorry for the delay in reply but my PC operating system got messed up & would not run. I am using another PC to get back to you.

This antenna would fit in a closet.

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-8-bay-uhf-antenna-hdtv-guaranteed-to-out-perform-all-other-outdoor-18-elements-tv-aerial-for-local-offair-digital-fringe-reception-red-zone-part-super-g1483-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6356.html

This one might fit under a bed.

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-mxu59-uhf-antenna-extreme-deep-fringe-maxus-59-electronic-elements-directional-tv-outdoor-television-signal-local-offair-digital-hdtv-reception-aerial-blue-zone-part-mxu59-refurbished-item-p-6565.html

But the side ways V or really < on the end of the antenna might stand up to high to fit inder a bed. but if the bed is in the corner of the bed room the < could go in the very corner behind the bed.

What kind of antenna was she using when was receiving 21 while it was on analog?

If the 21 digital transmitter is still using the broadcast antenna they used for analog she should receive something from 21 now that it is digital.

An indoor amp may help but it will need to have a low noise amp. Channel master had one model 3042. But I can not find it available on the web. The noise was as good as the our door pre amps at 3.5 db noise.

K mart has had them but theirs was not as good with a noise of 5 db.



Sorry for the delay in reply but my PC operating system got messed up & would not run. I am using another PC to get back to you.

What kind of antenna was she using when was receiving 21 while it was on analog?

the terk55

IS your computer a HP? If so what number and what type of HD does it use? SEAGATE?

If so this is a common failure of these HArd drive.

If this is the case PM for more details

What kind of antenna was she using when was receiving 21 while it was on analog?

the terk55

IS your computer a HP? If so what number and what type of HD does it use? SEAGATE?

If so this is a common failure of these HArd drive.

If this is the case PM for more details

I believe the 2 antennas I have links for would by far exceed the signal than the terk55. You might need that indoor amp I stated so that the antennas have an amp to compare with the terk55 that has a built in amp; So you are comparing an apple to an apple not an apple to an orange because if the terk55 has an amp & the other antennas do not, it would not be a good to campare them with out an amp too.

I built my pc by buying the main board, cpu & etc.

The hard drive is western digital.

I was running Linux as the operating system.

I believe the 2 antennas I have links for would by far exceed the signal than the terk55. You might need that indoor amp I stated so that the antennas have an amp to compare with the terk55 that has a built in amp; So you are comparing an apple to an apple not an apple to an orange because if the terk55 has an amp & the other antennas do not, it would not be a good to campare them with out an amp too.

I built my pc by buying the main board, cpu & etc.

The hard drive is western digital.

I was running Linux as the operating system.

The terks amp can be turned on and off. There is little to no difference on.


I believe the 2 antennas I have links for would by far exceed the signal than the terk55"

What about the CLEARSTREAM c2. How would they compare to that one. Since the C2 is rated very high and had same results as my old Terk 55. Very disapoitnting to say the least

I believe the 2 antennas I have links for would by far exceed the signal than the terk55. You might need that indoor amp I stated so that the antennas have an amp to compare with the terk55 that has a built in amp; So you are comparing an apple to an apple not an apple to an orange because if the terk55 has an amp & the other antennas do not, it would not be a good to campare them with out an amp too.

I built my pc by buying the main board, cpu & etc.

The hard drive is western digital.

I was running Linux as the operating system.

Is this antenna and this other one the same? Same name? Different picture??

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-8-bay-uhf-antenna-hdtv-guaranteed-to-out-perform-all-other-outdoor-18-elements-tv-aerial-for-local-offair-digital-fringe-reception-red-zone-part-super-g1483-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6356.html


Or

http://www.antennacraft.net/48Bay.html

Wonder why they look different with same name? This is Antennacrafts main sight. I would likt o see your recommendation on the main site so I can see the dimensions.

They wont do it period.

That's too bad, probably would've worked out mint.

I did try the terk and C2 in window with no difference at all.

Would hate to do all that work and drive 2:30 hours to find out it is the same thing

All WHAT work?
How long will it take you to bend 2 pieces of wire and screw it to a board???
And don't you visit from time to time?

GEEEEZE!

That's too bad, probably would've worked out mint.



All WHAT work?
How long will it take you to bend 2 pieces of wire and screw it to a board???
And don't you visit from time to time?

GEEEEZE!

Yes but have many personal things going on. She understands. When I go. It takes 5 hours between driving time and visit time.

Plus she gives me a hard time with new things. Especially UGLY things. The under bed would not work. Only behind dresser would work.

I really do not want to waste time unless I have a 80% chance of making things better

You can even skip the wire bending part if you use coat hangers as illustrated in this video.

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/01/maker_workshop_dtv_antenna_steadyca.html

This apparently uses a different design than the one discussed in this thread, but the parts are easy to find around the house.

You can even skip the wire bending part if you use coat hangers as illustrated in this video.

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/01/maker_workshop_dtv_antenna_steadyca.html

This apparently uses a different design than the one discussed in this thread, but the parts are easy to find around the house.

it was a real disappointment when the C2 failed to produce a better result. Besides the 5 to 6 hours wasted going there. I had to mail the dam thing back and cost me money to do that.

lexus 2108 you should go ask tigerbangs on another website he has antenna remedy for you. with this noreaster i lost all my ota signals, i think i need a new antenna setup

Is this antenna and this other one the same? Same name? Different picture??

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-8-bay-uhf-antenna-hdtv-guaranteed-to-out-perform-all-other-outdoor-18-elements-tv-aerial-for-local-offair-digital-fringe-reception-red-zone-part-super-g1483-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6356.html


Or

http://www.antennacraft.net/48Bay.html

Wonder why they look different with same name? This is Antennacrafts main sight. I would likt o see your recommendation on the main site so I can see the dimensions.


The elements are shaped different.

Before I would drive to try any thing I would first try it at your home. I would check around & see what you can find local so it will be easy to return. Some walmarts have a phillips out door yagi antenna. But it is not listed on the web site. It is over priced at $99.00 but that is the kind I would try. If any deep fringe out door antennas you find local I would try them @ your home & see how well they work. Some state the db gain they have & that is like horse power to an engine. If it is not stated it must not be much good or too weak.

Is this antenna and this other one the same? Same name? Different picture??

http://www.summitsource.com/antennacraft-8-bay-uhf-antenna-hdtv-guaranteed-to-out-perform-all-other-outdoor-18-elements-tv-aerial-for-local-offair-digital-fringe-reception-red-zone-part-super-g1483-with-50-ft-coax-cable-p-6356.html


Or

http://www.antennacraft.net/48Bay.html

Wonder why they look different with same name? This is Antennacrafts main sight. I would likt o see your recommendation on the main site so I can see the dimensions.

The Summitsource is a G1483 [ORIGINAL] Hoverman design, and will not perform as well as a Grey-Hoverman as improved significantly by our Canadian friends, and outlined on my site. It is also mis-labeled: It should be referred to as a Double Bay, as one set of zig-zag elements constitutes a "Bay".

The Antennacraft are 4 & 8 Bay bowtie designs, and again will not perform as well as an mclapp perfected design.

What you must realize is many (most) antenna designs currently available commercially were for the entire UHF band - all the way to ch 83. Some were tweaked to improve performance by limiting the high end to ch 69, but even still we are now working only to ch 51 - so with a narrower bandwidth to cover the designs can be optimized to get more gain where it counts.

You can even skip the wire bending part if you use coat hangers as illustrated in this video.

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/01/maker_workshop_dtv_antenna_steadyca.html

This apparently uses a different design than the one discussed in this thread, but the parts are easy to find around the house.

Firstly, he refers to the example in the video as a Hoverman antenna, which it is not - it is a 4-Bay Bowtie. (Actually he may have said Hooverman.:D)
Secondly...
* the Bay spacing of 5-3/4" is too close & s/b 9" apart.
* The element length of 8" is too short - these s/b 9-1/2" Lg.
* The phase line spacing (The wires that run vertically and connect the elements) looks very wide - this s/b 1-1/4".
* The point at which the phase lines cross over each other should have a space of ~1" to approach the 1-1/4" phase line spacing throughout - a piece of electrical tape is not sufficient.
* And the 3" opening at the tips s/b ~5-1/2", though this is not too critical.

Earlier in the thread I posted links to vid's of a properly dimensioned 4-bay bowtie antenna.

It was a very nicely made video, however inaccurate it may be for optimum performance.:D

Seriously, to try a Grey-Hoverman w/o reflector has got to be the easiest and cheapest antenna you could ever try and make!

Here's your bill of materials:
(2) 5' long pieces of #8 or #10 solid copper wire
(1) 1"x4"x3' board
(6) #8 or #10 wood screws & flat washers
(1) balun - 300 to 75 ohm matching transformer (~$5)

Straighten your wires as per this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8HoeP9beYE

Trim to the overall length calculated from the dim's for the elements on the SBGH-6 (Stands for Single Bay Grey-Hoverman, the 6 is for how many reflector rods is in the design) page of my site, and bend to said dim's.
Attach to board with wood screws & washers with 3" between the elements closest points, putting the balun in the middle - done.

lexus 2108 you should go ask tigerbangs on another website he has antenna remedy for you. with this noreaster i lost all my ota signals, i think i need a new antenna setup

PM me the link pls

The elements are shaped different.

Before I would drive to try any thing I would first try it at your home. I would check around & see what you can find local so it will be easy to return. Some walmarts have a phillips out door yagi antenna. But it is not listed on the web site. It is over priced at $99.00 but that is the kind I would try. If any deep fringe out door antennas you find local I would try them @ your home & see how well they work. Some state the db gain they have & that is like horse power to an engine. If it is not stated it must not be much good or too weak.

Ya thats the problem I live over 60 miles from the city. I get 2 stations here OTA. lol Everyone has cable or SAT here

I wish I could go OTA

Ya thats the problem I live over 60 miles from the city. I get 2 stations here OTA. lol Everyone has cable or SAT here

I wish I could go OTA


That make your home a great place to test the antennas then.

That make your home a great place to test the antennas then.

No HOA does not allow Antenna's on roof. :-(

No HOA does not allow Antenna's on roof. :-(

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

- Trip

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

- Trip

This means they can not stop us?

Basically. There are certain limits and restrictions but outright bans are not enforceable on your controlled property.

- Trip

Basically. There are certain limits and restrictions but outright bans are not enforceable on your controlled property.

- Trip

Even controlled by a HOA? Do townhouses fall within the rules?

From the document:

Q: I live in a townhome community. Am I covered by the FCC rule?

A: Yes. If you own the whole townhouse, including the walls and the roof and the land under the building, then the rule applies just as it does for a single family home, and you may be able to put the antenna on the roof, the exterior wall, the backyard or any other place that is part of what you own. If the townhouse is a condominium, then the rule applies as it does for any other type of condominium, which means it applies only where you have an exclusive use area. If it is a condominium townhouse, you probably cannot use the roof, the chimney, or the exterior walls unless the condominium association gives you permission. You may want to check your ownership documents to determine what areas are owned by you or are reserved for your exclusive use.

I don't know the ins and outs, not living in a townhouse.

- Trip

From the document:

Q: I live in a townhome community. Am I covered by the FCC rule?

A: Yes. If you own the whole townhouse, including the walls and the roof and the land under the building, then the rule applies just as it does for a single family home, and you may be able to put the antenna on the roof, the exterior wall, the backyard or any other place that is part of what you own. If the townhouse is a condominium, then the rule applies as it does for any other type of condominium, which means it applies only where you have an exclusive use area. If it is a condominium townhouse, you probably cannot use the roof, the chimney, or the exterior walls unless the condominium association gives you permission. You may want to check your ownership documents to determine what areas are owned by you or are reserved for your exclusive use.

I don't know the ins and outs, not living in a townhouse.

- Trip

Thanks and now back to your original job of getting my aunt more OTA sub channels. lol

I was not aware it was a job. :p

- Trip

(I speak only English and so it serves no purpose for me to have to scan through a dozen or so channels with no programming I can understand, so I've deleted those channels.) MR. R.F.Burns, I also do not speak Spanish, but I like to alert you to what you are missing.
The other day ch41.1- ch68.2 was giving Latin Grammy Avards with CC3 English subt. and most likely some other shows have also cc3.
Virtually all new 1 hour shows, novellas on ch.47-ch36 haveCC1espl and CC3 English subtitles.
The other day I watched on Vme13.3 no english subt. spanish movie shown twice in row to get the understanding of it, worthy film.
Nocturninos11.2 shows movies mostly gangsters films in CC3 some really funny shoot 'em all.
I have to say that Spanish TV is much more daring,better and it is harder to fall asleep since you have to read the subtitles. Alo.

(I speak only English and so it serves no purpose for me to have to scan through a dozen or so channels with no programming I can understand, so I've deleted those channels.) MR. R.F.Burns, I also do not speak Spanish, but I like to alert you to what you are missing.
The other day ch41.1- ch68.2 was giving Latin Grammy Avards with CC3 English subt. and most likely some other shows have also cc3.
Virtually all new 1 hour shows, novellas on ch.47-ch36 haveCC1espl and CC3 English subtitles.
The other day I watched on Vme13.3 no english subt. spanish movie shown twice in row to get the understanding of it, worthy film.
Nocturninos11.2 shows movies mostly gangsters films in CC3 some really funny shoot 'em all.
I have to say that Spanish TV is much more daring,better and it is harder to fall asleep since you have to read the subtitles. Alo.

I tried CC3 English subt on the DTVpal and I can not get it to work for my aunt. Too bad she likes some of the Spanish programs

No HOA does not allow Antenna's on roof. :-(

That does not mean you can not go up & sit on the roof & test ant antenna ...or in your attic or in the floor of your house.

That does not mean you can not go up & sit on the roof & test ant antenna ...or in your attic or in the floor of your house.

I got a V shape roof. No place to really stand, but I see your point

Hey Lexus,
You out on the Island?
What does your tvfool look like?

Northwestern Brooklyn here (East Williamsburg), where WNYE 25-1 has always come in at 100% and never 1 point lower. But, for the last few days it has flatlined at dead zero. Does anyone know if they have stopped transmitting?

Northwestern Brooklyn here (East Williamsburg), where WNYE 25-1 has always come in at 100% and never 1 point lower. But, for the last few days it has flatlined at dead zero. Does anyone know if they have stopped transmitting?


Just tried the station and nothing here on the Upper East Side, Manhttan.

Usually, I have no problem receiving 25-1.

Speaking of WNYE-DT, what happened to them going HD like the crawls said pre-transition?

Just tried the station and nothing here on the Upper East Side, Manhttan.

Usually, I have no problem receiving 25-1.

WNYE has has a problem from ESB due to transmitter issues since saturday morning.

WNYE has has a problem from ESB due to transmitter issues since saturday morning.

Didn't WNYE-DT, as of the transition, move to 4TS?

Hey Lexus,
You out on the Island?
What does your tvfool look like?

Says ESB over 60 miles away. lol

I got a V shape roof. No place to really stand, but I see your point

You do not stand. You put the ladder to the the peak & go up there & sit on the peak of the v on the roof & hold the antenna. Have your wife look at the tv for the measurments of signal

Northwestern Brooklyn here (East Williamsburg), where WNYE 25-1 has always come in at 100% and never 1 point lower. But, for the last few days it has flatlined at dead zero. Does anyone know if they have stopped transmitting?


they need to change a weak tube in the transmitter

Here's one for you experts to help answer.

As of the past 2 months or so 7.1 which is a middle of the pack VHF station as become my stongest channel. The signal measures in the mid to low 90s. Seeing this is a rather long term event and not due to something that happened one day or one week I can't see this is tropospheric.

Meanwhile 2.1 and 4.1 are in the 60's and 70's and I am having big problems with 2.1

Since I am using what is considered a UHF antenna (CM4228) I can't for the life of me figure out why a VHF channel 7.1 is now my best and UHF channels are a problem.

Is any else having this experience?

Could my antenna have moved a little?

Len I have yagi uhf antenna on the roof of my 2 story house, i'm about 5 miles from esb. my strongest stations are high vhf also, saying that, channel 2 breaks up sometimes, yesterday during the jets game, which was a real downer, the signla its usually reliable, i think it could be something with the way the transmit their high definition signal, i noticed that when a tv station carries hd signal of 1080i, and 2 subs at 480i, their hd channel suffers from breakup, that happens with wnet 13. believe or not my strongest channel is not any of my locals, is channel 49 from bridgeport i get their signal near 100%. It's kind of oddity cos at tvfool is suppose to hard to get station, i get it near perfect now, the leaves are gone from trees i'm getting wliw ch 21 from plainview, relieably, :)

The only stations that ever break up (in very high winds or poor weather) is channel 2 and sometimes 4. All the other stations never ever break up. Kind of weird.

Len as i understand from reading in other websites the channel master 4228 is very good on high vhf, just curious can you get wliw signal or wedw 49 from where you are now, uhf part of that antenna 4228 is regarded as the one of most powerful out on the market.
good luck on your ota.

Len I have yagi uhf antenna on the roof of my 2 story house, i'm about 5 miles from esb. my strongest stations are high vhf also, saying that, channel 2 breaks up sometimes,

Even though channel 2 is on UHF? How are the other stations that use the master UHF antenna coming in for you? (WNBC, WABC, WWOR)

WABC unfortunately, no longer uses the "master UHF antenna."

WABC is a tenant of the VHF Combiner system on ESB along with WPIX and WNET.

Len as i understand from reading in other websites the channel master 4228 is very good on high vhf, just curious can you get wliw signal or wedw 49 from where you are now, uhf part of that antenna 4228 is regarded as the one of most powerful out on the market.
good luck on your ota.

No I can't get those stations.

Even though channel 2 is on UHF? How are the other stations that use the master UHF antenna coming in for you? (WNBC, WABC, WWOR)

Max Signal Strength as reported by my Sharp LCD TV

2.1=0
4.1=40
5.1=90
7.1=91
9.1=51
11.1=68
13.1=38
25.1=0
31.1=0
41.1=84
47.1=0
50.1=71
58.1=53
63.1=0
66.1=0
68.1=69

WNYE had been dead for me for a few days not too. Getting 0.

As for VHF channels 7 and 13 are the strongest although channel 7 has been having more mulitpath issues lately. Keeps breaking up sometimes. Still not as bad as channel 47. When they moved from West Orange to the ESB my signal went from a solid strong 90's to 60's that keep breaking up to the single digits. That channel has bad multipath issues.

Even though channel 2 is on UHF? How are the other stations that use the master UHF antenna coming in for you? (WNBC, WABC, WWOR)
__________________
--Mike Fitzpatrick
Broadcast Engineer

most of uhf channels are mid 80's signal bar, even though my antenna is pointed due north> cos i have buildings blockin my line of sight to ESB, plus i want to pickup additional channels pbs from connecticut. imho vhf signals are less constraint or easier to pickup than uhf signals, i can pickup vhf channel 8 from new haven with uhf antenna, while my uhf gives me trouble with station less than 5 miles away! let me know what your view is ?

WABC unfortunately, no longer uses the "master UHF antenna."

WABC is a tenant of the VHF Combiner system on ESB along with WPIX and WNET.


That is correct, and an oversight on my part. I apologize.

I did not have enough time then to explain it all, the CC3 applies ONLY to TV-CC , never to conv.box, my 13Sharp has only 1CC, I 've got 20Sony cc4-text4.
Conv box uses Service1-6, if the program is in spanish use S2 for ingles, if the program is English use Service2 for Spanish.
The Pal or any conv.box on 47 or any spanish would be Service2, enjoy, Alo.

they need to change a weak tube in the transmitter

Wait ... DTV transmitters use vacuum tubes like a 1960s console TV?

High-powered UHF transmitters generally use IOT Tubes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_output_tube

- Trip

Hi,
Does anyone know if they are doing work up on the ESB.
My NY channels have been on and off for the last 2 days.
I believe that 7,11, and 13 share the same combiner and they have really been on and off, but so has 5 and 9.
They have been pretty solid since the shutoff, with the exception of 2, of course and I know that 25 is still having problems with their transmitter.
I hope they havent reoriented again.
Any info would be a huge help.
Thanks much

5 and 9 have been doing work - but have not lost signal from them.

The only difference I've noticed with the VHF Combiner stations is that 11's signal
seems worse.

When you talk about being off the air, what time of day?

Most stations broadcasting from the ESB, usually do their work between 1 - 5 a.m.

Yesterday 5 and 9 were in and out in the morning until maybe around 9:00 am
Today, 7,11,13 as well as 5 and 9 have been in and out.
I come in around 7, so I dont know what was going on during the night.
I have a 150' tower with individual cut yagi's and all antennas showed crazy variations with signal on my analyzer.
After the leaves came down, my multipath issues were greatly reduced and my NY siganls have been rock solid, so I am hoping that what I,m seeing is just them working in NY and not reorientation of their antennas.

As I mentioned, the only change I've noticed is a diminution of 11's signal.

Could your varying reception be due to atmospherics????

I hope not. Historically, we have had co channel problems with NY during the summer, but usually this time of year, it isnt a problem. I have had some problems when our valley is shrouded in fog, but the high VHF hasnt been effected by this to any serious degree.
My base elevation is 650' plus another 150' tower, so NY has been pretty consistant, 60 miles out. In reality, I am probably asking too much in trying to pull out of market stations in consistantly, but I dont think I can convince 4000 seniors of that. It used to be soooooooo easy. LOL
Thanks

Wait ... DTV transmitters use vacuum tubes like a 1960s console TV?

Yes, most high power radio transmission uses tubes. Both for FM and TV. In TV , usually higher powered UHF transmitters have IOT's, as Trip said, but some do use Solid State (transistor). Tube transmitters are a lot more energy efficient and produce a better signal for digital than solid state rigs do. Most higher powered UHF TV transmitters have two or more tube transmitters, "combined" together to achieve the power level as well as provide some redundancy. This was more common in Analog where a much higher power is needed.

len are you using a preamplifier like cm 7777 ? if not it would really help from where you are, i'm using a low power preamp like winegard hdp 269, my location is nearer to the tv towers, you're at least 30-40 miles out, put it this way it wouldnt hurt to try, specially if youre splitting your tv signal.

As I mentioned, the only change I've noticed is a diminution of 11's signal.

Could your varying reception be due to atmospherics????

Depends on whether you define atmospherics as sky noise or multipath. Generally, at these frequencies, some of the RF from the transmitting antenna is fired above the horizontal and is bent downward by the refractive index of the atmosphere. This RF arrives at the Rx delayed by this longer path and is dynamic multipath

len are you using a preamplifier like cm 7777 ? if not it would really help from where you are, i'm using a low power preamp like winegard hdp 269, my location is nearer to the tv towers, you're at least 30-40 miles out, put it this way it wouldnt hurt to try, specially if youre splitting your tv signal.

Actually I have 2 antennas mounted. Both with CM7777 preamps. I have the CM4228 mounted high up on my chimmney and about 10' below it a simple UHF bowtie antenna I found lying around. The simple bowtie feeds my PALDVR as it picks up 2.1, 4.1 better than the CM4228. The CM4228 has trouble with 2.1 (0 reception now) and 4.1 (picture breaks up) where most of the shows I watch/record are located.

What I find interesting is I split the the signal from the CM4228 and send it 70' to an upstairs SHARP LCD TV and that TV will pick up 2.1 although the signal is not that strong. I only send it about 10' from the preamp in the basement to the first floor TV and I can't get 2.1. I have tried all kinds of variations on splitting and not splitting the CM4228 signal, inputting to the TV or the DVRPAL and the results are the same. The first floor devices closest to the preamp can't get 2.1 at all or very well and the second floor TV can get it.

By the way this is a recent event as all summer 2.1 was coming in in the high 80s to low 90s reception wise and was along with 5.1 my strongest channel. Then all of a sudden 5.1 and 7.1 became my best channels and 2.1 bad.

However as I said the small bowtie has picked up 2.1 fine.

There is something strange going on....maybe with the coax, ground, or connectors. I have switched things around again and again, replaced coax inside etc.

... What I find interesting is I split the the signal from the CM4228 and send it 70' to an upstairs SHARP LCD TV and that TV will pick up 2.1 although the signal is not that strong. I only send it about 10' from the preamp in the basement to the first floor TV and I can't get 2.1. I have tried all kinds of variations on splitting and not splitting the CM4228 signal, inputting to the TV or the DVRPAL and the results are the same. The first floor devices closest to the preamp can't get 2.1 at all or very well and the second floor TV can get it.

By the way this is a recent event as all summer 2.1 was coming in in the high 80s to low 90s reception wise and was along with 5.1 my strongest channel. Then all of a sudden 5.1 and 7.1 became my best channels and 2.1 bad.

Hi Len, how's it goin!:)
A couple of things to consider would be the change in those channel's output since summer - tvfool at my location out on L.I. says signal strength has dropped considerably since early/mid summer, I think (hope!) due to work on the ESB transmitters/antennas.

Another possibility is that we're talking UHF here and it will be considerably attenuated by the leaves on the trees. Add to that as I recall you also trimmed some trees at the end of summer letting even more signal thru - and now all the leaves are gone.

It may be that since the 7777 is a high gain amp, and your problem is with the TV closest to the amp, that you may be overloading the tuner. Just for giggles try putting a 2, or 3-way splitter in front of that 10' of cable to the 1st floor TV to drop the signal to be close to that which the upstairs TV sees, with a 70' cable run, and see if that makes a difference.

However as I said the small bowtie has picked up 2.1 fine.

There is something strange going on....

Since your location is on the downside of a hill you are probable looking at both refracted and reflected signals and the 4228 may be a little too high to be in a strong signal area, where the old corner reflector bowtie being a bit lower is in a strong spot - it doesn't take much difference in height to make all the difference between being in a hot spot or being in a null...

Or the corner reflector bowtie is a bit more directional than your 4228 and thus a bit more resistant to multipath at your location.

Or... the gain of the bowtie is lower than the 4228 and thus when amplified is still not overloading the tuner closest to it.

Some thoughts...

Actually I have 2 antennas mounted. Both with CM7777 preamps. I have the CM4228 mounted high up on my chimmney and about 10' below it a simple UHF bowtie antenna I found lying around.

...

However as I said the small bowtie has picked up 2.1 fine.

There is something strange going on.....

Maybe it has to do with the bowtie antenna being lower to catch signals that may be bending over the hill near your house. I noticed that in this article the antennas are placed low to the ground and angled slightly upward towards the hill take advantage of knife edge refraction. Here's the original article:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/ReceptionOnTheFringe.html

Here's the follow-up article.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/OutToTheFringe.html

Thanks Guys for the tips/ideas!

AKA....you sure have a great memory for my situation! You nailed it.

I have already tried sending the CM4228 right out of the preamp to the TV 10' away with no split, then tried sending a coax feed from a 2-way splitter and a 3-way splitter. 2.1 still did not come in at all. Zero.

Meanwhile like I said a TV on the second floor getting the feed from the basement to the attic and then across the attic floor and down a wall into another SHARP LCD can receive 2.1 with a signal in the 50's and hold it for the most part with some breakup.

This issue really has me puzzled. Makes no sense to me. Must be something stupid I am overlooking. I keep thinking about it and open to suggestions.

The CM4228 is a bit high up on the chimmeny and I dare say I don't think there is a rats chance in hell that I will climb that high up and try to move it lower or higher. It's not that it is so high for most people....but I am chicken.

Do you folks think there is any relation to the fact that I can receive 7.1 so strong (upper 80's and even low to mid 90s) and 2.1 seems to disappear?

Why is a VHF channel my best when I have what is considered a UHF antenna? In fact I can get 11.1, 13.1, 58.1 (8)....all VHF stations and I can't get 2.1. This seems very odd to me.

WNYE (25.1) has returned OTA, albeit with a weak signal.

PIXch.11 staggers like drunkards, too high signal fluctuation, must adjust indoor control
ant.,and ch2CBC sometime too, their loss - my gain of time, ha,ha,ha.

Do you folks think there is any relation to the fact that I can receive 7.1 so strong (upper 80's and even low to mid 90s) and 2.1 seems to disappear?

Why is a VHF channel my best when I have what is considered a UHF antenna? In fact I can get 11.1, 13.1, 58.1 (8)....all VHF stations and I can't get 2.1. This seems very odd to me.

I think its not always about the signal strength, it may be more about signal radiation pattern and purity of signal (how strongs are the reflected signals causing impurities). During summer months 2.1, 4.1, 5.1 were consistetly strong for me. After the digital transition, I was not getting 11.1 at all and 7.1 and 13.1 were mutually exclusive, i.e. if one was coming, I was missing the other. Now as time progressed ABC improved considerably even though they are in VHF and now I get it reliably. Probably they did some thing on their side. After the leaves were gone, now I am getting 13.1 relliably during evening and night and 90% reliably during the day. 11.1 also improved a lot (I was not getting it at all before) and now I get it reliably during evening and night. And as you have noted and I have observed too, 4.1 now breaks up some time. Same with 2.1 too but less. FOX and ABC are the strongest for me. I wish all the stations move back to UHF and use pre-transition radiation schemes, but figured, that'll not happen at all.