Well, keep in mind that most of the time 120V is really 115 - 117V.

-Ed

Not if you have an Exact Power! :D

Does your EP filter line noise as well?

moonhawk,

It's not so good at that. After we installed a new 12v ceiling light in the next room, the transformer hum got through the (cheap) dimmer switch on any setting but full ON or OFF. Any light level in between caused hum audible in the speakers. This despite being on a dedicated circuit, through a Surgex and through the EP. *&^*!

Had to change out to a better quality dimmer switch.

Which dimmer switch are you using? My el-cheapo dimmer used to cause me problems, but I have recently re-done much of my system, and the hum is gone. However, el-cheapo has offended me and must go! TIA.

Dimmer switches are often built around silicon-controlled rectifiers (SCRs). These are notorious for generating radio-frequency noise, as they cause the current to go from full-load to zero 60 times per second. It's the very sudden drop in current, not the 60/second that cause the problem. Better dimmers may include some type of RF suppression, such as electromagnetic shielding, ferrite core inductors on all leads, or a good high-frequency capacitor in the right spots.

This noise is most likely NOT entering your A/V gear via the power line, but thru the "ether".

Originally posted by roblake
Dimmer switches are often built around silicon-controlled rectifiers (SCRs). These are notorious for generating radio-frequency noise, as they cause the current to go from full-load to zero 60 times per second. It's the very sudden drop in current, not the 60/second that cause the problem. Better dimmers may include some type of RF suppression, such as electromagnetic shielding, ferrite core inductors on all leads, or a good high-frequency capacitor in the right spots.

This noise is most likely NOT entering your A/V gear via the power line, but thru the "ether".

So does anyone make an "ether" filter.:p

I just spent a bit of time reading through this thread and I must say that there is some great information here.

Two weeks ago, I purchased a Brickwall PW8r15AUD to replace my Monster HTS2000 (for all of the obvious benefits).

However, after doing a little more research, I want to know how the Brickwall compares to the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet (OU). The PS Audio is not an MOV-based surge protector. It uses a trans-zorb (not sure what that is - although when I called PS Audio, they explained that it also does not have the MOV problems).

The PS Audio is just a little more money than the Brickwall, and I like the fact that it also has serious line/power conditioning. I can't afford to go with something spendy like the ExactPower, although I do want to get the most bang for my buck.

Thoughts?

A question for those of you using an UPS and Brickwall combo to protect your RPTV: Do you see any difference in PQ when switching between having the UPS plugged into the Brickwall and the Brickwall plugged into the UPS?

If the Brickwall's filtering can clean up some of the signal coming out of the UPS, then I might just need TWO Brickwalls; one between the TV and UPS and one for the rest of the gear. Having it all run thru the Brickwall and then the UPS is too much of a drain on my UPS.

Thanks,

HDD

LOL, yes, they are called VOC air respirators. :P

-Ed

Originally posted by roblake
...This noise is most likely NOT entering your A/V gear via the power line, but thru the "ether".

This is interesting. By "thru the ether" do you mean seeping into the power cables, interconnects and speaker wire that are in close physical proximity to the dimmer switch?

This would make sense since the dimmer switch and lamp power cord are now physically separated from most of my cables, whereas before they were one big happy family. However, even in this better configuration, I can still get the same buzz if I unplug an amp from my power conditioner and go strait into the wall (different outlet as the dimmer and same outlet as my A/V equipment). Perhaps it is a combination of both??

robblake, your explanation sounds exactly like the one I got from the chief engineer/designer/president/guru at ExactPower. Nice guy and clearly MUCH smarter than me about this stuff (duh). Good to know he wasn't just blowing smoke. You're right that the noise wasn't at 60Hz. Much higher pitched than that, more of a "hush" than a "hum", not quite a "hiss".

Could changing a normal AC lighting fixture to a 12v fixture + transformer excite a dimmer switch to these "ethereal" emanations? They never happened in the 15 years before we got the new light.

ebrigham, we just got a Lutron dimmer but haven't put it in yet so can't give results.

Originally posted by K_Thompson
So does anyone make an "ether" filter.:p

http://www.emishieldinggaskets.com/faraday_cage%20_tent.htm

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
You're right that the noise wasn't at 60Hz. Much higher pitched than that, more of a "hush" than a "hum", not quite a "hiss".

Could changing a normal AC lighting fixture to a 12v fixture + transformer excite a dimmer switch to these "ethereal" emanations? They never happened in the 15 years before we got the new light.

ebrigham, we just got a Lutron dimmer but haven't put it in yet so can't give results.

My guess is that there is a connection somewhere in your A/V that is slightly non-linear. This MAY be purposeful, such as a rectifier in a power supply, a Zener diode regulating a voltage, or an oxidized RCA input connector. Given the weak (microvolts/meter) RF signals typically encountered, the "problem" in the A/V is most likely in the low-level circuitry or the power supply that feeds same.

In the Ancient Days, when I designed or modified my own equipment, I used to run my low-level audio as shielded differential, so that the audio signal never "saw" ground. But no one really designs that way anymore, it seems.

There are ways ...

Originally posted by ebrigham
This is interesting. By "thru the ether" do you mean seeping into the power cables, interconnects and speaker wire that are in close physical proximity to the dimmer switch?

This would make sense since the dimmer switch and lamp power cord are now physically separated from most of my cables, whereas before they were one big happy family. However, even in this better configuration, I can still get the same buzz if I unplug an amp from my power conditioner and go strait into the wall (different outlet as the dimmer and same outlet as my A/V equipment). Perhaps it is a combination of both??

Sitting here within eyesight of the tracks where Michelson and Morley did their critical experiment, proving that "ether" did not exist ...

By "ether" I meant a non-conductive pathway radiated to the A/V equipment. Consider anything hooked to the SCR dimmer as an antenna and, duh, your A/V IS a receiver, eh?

In thinking about this problem, there MUST be hospital-grade dimmers that don't radiate.

Originally posted by roblake
http://www.emishieldinggaskets.com/faraday_cage%20_tent.htm

I've always wanted to wallpaper my living room with copper foil.

Ya, right.:D

Originally posted by K_Thompson
I've always wanted to wallpaper my living room with copper foil.

Ya, right.:D

Nah, you got it wrong. You line the living room with CDs and DVDs. You just have to wire them all together!

:=}}}

Wallpaper is then optional.

Best use of CDs I can think of! That would leave me room to store more LP's.

Vinyl rules!

Oops, wrong forum. Sorry...

Originally posted by MBookspan
I just spent a bit of time reading through this thread and I must say that there is some great information here.

Two weeks ago, I purchased a Brickwall PW8r15AUD to replace my Monster HTS2000 (for all of the obvious benefits).

However, after doing a little more research, I want to know how the Brickwall compares to the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet (OU). The PS Audio is not an MOV-based surge protector. It uses a trans-zorb (not sure what that is - although when I called PS Audio, they explained that it also does not have the MOV problems).

The PS Audio is just a little more money than the Brickwall, and I like the fact that it also has serious line/power conditioning. I can't afford to go with something spendy like the ExactPower, although I do want to get the most bang for my buck.

Thoughts?

I think the point of the ExactPower units is that it even protects against brownouts which neither the Brickwall or PS Audio units do (which explains the higher price)

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I think the point of the ExactPower units is that it even protects against brownouts which neither the Brickwall or PS Audio units do (which explains the higher price)

Wrong.

PS Audio Powerplants do so and more. Better than ExactPower. Although not very effeciently. Lots of power is lost to heat. Those suckers get hot!

None of these power conditioners or regenerators will do squat about a short power black out. No power is no power. Only a UPS can provide power backup. Too bad their power output is really crappy.

-Ed

ebrigham

What power conditioner do you have that kills the hum?

Originally posted by Edwood
Wrong.

PS Audio Powerplants do so and more. Better than ExactPower. Although not very effeciently. Lots of power is lost to heat. Those suckers get hot!

None of these power conditioners or regenerators will do squat about a short power black out. No power is no power. Only a UPS can provide power backup. Too bad their power output is really crappy.

-Ed

Re-read Mbookspan's post. He is asking about the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet (OU), not the Powerplants. The powerplants are much more expensive than the brickwall, and mbookspan mentions he was considering a similarly priced product to compare against the brickwall.

Ah. OK.

Well, a used P300 can be had for around $500 these days. Although that little ******* will get really hot. But MAN, the PQ on my Sammy 467 was niiiiice.

And considering that a High Current UO goes for $400 new, I'd personally go with a used P300. Now if you go with a used UO, now that's another story. ;)

The Brickwall won't do much for improving PQ at all, it may simply remove some interference. I really wouldn't call the Brickwall an AC conditioner or filter for that matter. It does wonders for ground loops, though. I have found that the Brickwall does limit the dynamics of very power hungry amps, though. Which sucks, since the Brickwall gives the best peace of mind against surges.

-Ed

Originally posted by roblake
Sitting here within eyesight of the tracks where Michelson and Morley did their critical experiment, proving that "ether" did not exist ...

By "ether" I meant a non-conductive pathway radiated to the A/V equipment. Consider anything hooked to the SCR dimmer as an antenna and, duh, your A/V IS a receiver, eh?

In thinking about this problem, there MUST be hospital-grade dimmers that don't radiate.

Rob - thanks. I was curious about your use of the word, largely because it used to be a scientific curiosity...

Originally posted by moonhawk
ebrigham

What power conditioner do you have that kills the hum?

The conditioner I am/was using is a Monster 3500 [Yes, I know]. I am upgrading soon for various reasons, but the 3500 seemed to work pretty well for me. I am not 100% sure how the hum disappeared, but my earlier post captures my memory. It might be a combination of a) physically separating the A/V equipment from the dimmer and b) plugging into the conditioner - but I can't be certain. The buzz was VERY VERY annoying even though I couldn't hear it from my sitting position - and I am happy to be rid of it. I am on a bit of an odyssey to reduce the noise floor of my system and my dimmer switch was target #1. My HT equipment "re-build" is only halfway done, and my 70" XBR will be in late next week. I have a fair bit of re-connecting to do, so maybe I will experiment a bit more, but I am not anxious to hear this noise again.

Also, the dimmer switch I am speaking about is not an in-wall round-button-thingy you see in most homes. It is an extension cord type device that my lamp plugs into. I got it from a hardware store a long time ago and I planning on chucking it.

Based on my experiences balanced power works well, however, the PS300 only has a usable output of about 200~220 watts before it gets hot enough to fry an egg on. I thinks the Sammy RPTVs run about 200-watts. So powering a TV off of PS300 may not be the best solution.

Just my opinion.

No one has responded to my question about differences in PQ between running the Brickwall in front of or behind a UPS. I looked over the fine print in the UPS manual and discovered its output "sine wave" has 50% harmonic distortion. Ouch! Needless to say, this one is going back to BB.

So here's the new question: are there any UPSs out there that provide a reasonably clean output waveform?

TIA,

HDD

I think the best thing to do is make sure the Brickwall is in the wall and then the UPS (from what I could tell on this thread).

However, I am also still looking for more info about the PS Audio UO vs. the Brickwall. After listening to my system last night, I do hear a level of dynamic compression that I had not heard with my old Monster HTS2000. This is a little disconcerting.

I have asked the PS Audio folks for more information in regard to their surge protection. When I get the data, I will post it here.

Thanks,

Matthew

HardDrive

I seem to remember from old APC catalogues that they made some higher end UPS's that put out a "clean" sine wave..Don't know if they still do. You might check their web site.

Mathew

What do you mean by "dynamic compression" from the Brickwall? I'm not sure I hear it, but haven't tried any A/B switching. If I do, it goes to my office/computer equipment, and I start over.

Still waiting for better info on new Surgex "Empower" line. An all in one box solution for surge suppression, filtering and voltage regulation would be ideal.

I want to be able to boast about how FEW boxes I have in my system...:D

UPS's may put out a "clean" sine wave for computers, but computers are not picky. "Clean" does not necessarily mean good quality. Most sine wave's produced by a UPS is actually a square sine wave, which is not good for quality. Do a google search about it, there are some sites that show actual ocilliscope readings.

I did an A/B test with my audio equipment. Brickwall definitely compresses the soundstage and dynamics of high end audio. If you don't use a DAC and Amp, or don't know what those are, than it won't make a difference to you, and using a Brickwall will be fine.

The UO and Powerplants have three stages of surge suppression. They use the Plain ole MOV's that do wear out. Then they use "Transzorbers" that do not wear out and clamp down on spikes, and they use isolated transformer in the rare event that everything else fails to take the final hit.

Even the Brickwall would not survive a direct lightning strike. Nothing will. If you are really paranoid, just unplug all your stuff if there is a wicked lightning storm overhead.

Originally posted by HardDrive
No one has responded to my question about differences in PQ between running the Brickwall in front of or behind a UPS.
TIA,

HDD

You always want to plug the Brickwall into the wall, and then everything else into it. Otherwise, the wimpy MOV's in the UPS will be taking the brunt of the surges, wear out, then possibly explode, catch fire, etc. etc.

Brickwall provides the ultimate in surge suppression, but there are some trade offs.

I did find that a Brickwall by itself does wonders for ground loop problems that cause "buzzing" in the sound outputs of Amps. It really does an excellent job of isolating components from each other to help alleviate noise leakage between components. Which I think is the main function of the Brickwall. I really don't think it does a whole lot in the way of filtering or conditioning. It was never designed to do that.

-Ed

I would like to find a UPS that I can use in behind of the brickwall, but I'm reading that the power output of UPS' are so poor that it will negatively affect the picture quality.

I find it hard to believe that all UPS' have poor power quality output. Isn't there a "good" UPS that is affordable and sufficient for sustaining the TV only?

You don't want to do that. The whole point of the Brickwall is for Surge Suppression. It's not good to put MOV based surge suppression in front of a series mode surge suppressor.

Plus, the Brickwall won't do squat about the wave form coming out of the UPS.

You could plug a power conditioner or regenerator into the UPS, but they will be working very hard, and some units that are weaker, like the PS Audio P300 just won't be able to handle it.

-Ed

Ed:

My mistake.. I meant "behind the brickwall" and not "in front". I corrected my post.

In my experiences, the quality of power is important to the performance of audio and video. Why anyone would want to put a UPS in their system is beyond me.

I have an Equitech balanced power conditioner on my TV. It does a great job on audio and video.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I would like to find a UPS that I can use in behind of the brickwall, but I'm reading that the power output of UPS' are so poor that it will negatively affect the picture quality.

I find it hard to believe that all UPS' have poor power quality output. Isn't there a "good" UPS that is affordable and sufficient for sustaining the TV only?

I'm in the same boat (see my post above). Looked around and found there are "true sine wave output" UPS available. They are generally well over $500 for a 250W system. Too much for me considering I would still need the Brickwall for surge protection.

I decided my computer needs the UPS much more than my Sony GWIII TV. I'm moving the UPS to the study and getting a SM suppressor for the AV system.

Thanks for all the info on this thread.

HDD

In my experiences, the quality of power is important to the performance of audio and video. Why anyone would want to put a UPS in their system is beyond me.
It would be useful to have time to shut down the system slowly. My TV has a cooling fan, so presumablyi it doesn't like just losing power. OTOH, blackouts are rare and my Exact Power carries the system through brownouts. I agree it's not worth degrading A/V performance for the sake of blackout protection.

I have a Sammy 467 DLP RPTV.

How harmful would a sudden loss of power due to a power blackout/circuit breaker trip really be? Say it happens once a month. Worst case scenario, does it just shorten the bulb life? Or would other components suffer?

-Ed

Edwood, I have an HLM437W so would also be interested in this question.

If a sudden power loss killed the bulb the replacement goes for < $300 right. It's not worth spending much to protect against that. I'm not even sure a sudden power loss is damaging to halogen bulbs. Is it? (Don't know, just asking.)

I've assumed the cooling fan was to keep the IC's cool, much like in a PC. I certainly don't get blackouts/breaker trips once a month. More like once every two years or so. At that rate I'll take my chances. Obviously if you lose power more often it's a bigger risk.

A sudden loss of power on any RPTV could potentially cause damage. Most of the cooling fans on these sets run for a while to cool the bulb down after it is shut off. It will most definitely shorten the bulb life every time this happens.

Originally posted by Barrybud
A sudden loss of power on any RPTV could potentially cause damage. Most of the cooling fans on these sets run for a while to cool the bulb down after it is shut off. It will most definitely shorten the bulb life every time this happens.

I thought the bulbs go for $150 these days.

-Ed

for the Sony GWIII, bulb is about $300.

How much is the bulb for the Sammy DLP's?

-Ed

I just purchased 2 Brickwalls. One is PW2RAUD 20A for my Amp and PW8R15AUD for everything else. I have 2 dedicated wires run from the main to feed these. I have read you need one line for digital and one for analog, supposedly for better isolation. I looked at the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet with the Juice Bar, but decided I would try this set up first.

How much is the bulb for the Sammy DLP's?

$227

where is a good place to buy brickwall?

Strawbeard...

Please let us know if you get any "dynamic compression" or other loss of audio quality with your setup.

Thanks

Sellcom.com

They drop ship from Pricewheeler directly. Extra bonus if you live in California, since Sellcom.com is not located in California. ;)

As for Dynamic compression, it was more of a compression of the soundstage. But I only noticed this with a P300. The noise filtering of the Brickwall is the only plus side. It's strictly a protective device. The "Audiophile" versions simply have more beefy internals to help prevent it from limiting current flow. Which it does.

If you suffer from ground loop problems, i.e. you hear buzzing from your headphones or speakers coming from your amp, the Brickwall will work wonders.

-Ed

I know Brickwall seems to be the choice - but just an FYI here - I have a Monster HTS3600. This unit if you are not familier with it has Stage 3 power, and has separate areas to plug in digital/video/audio connections. I just ran a vaccum on the same circuit (My HT circuit, I installed specifically for the HT equipment and that was it) and there was no noise on the sammy whatsoever (the vaccum is another story :) ). Anyway, I don't know much about bulb life and how it is affected, etc., I am more concerned with power surges and power noise. The HTS3600 has so far performed very well.

I had posted earlier that I didn't see much of a difference. Well, I tried plugging the Sammy into the wall directly, and there is a difference for sure, a bigger one than I thought. Especially on the ANT input, where a lot of noise has been reduced.

Still not sure if I wasted my money on this thing, but I know I'm not hurting anything, I have improved performance (although the receiver does not seem as loud now, it does sound better in terms of clarity) and I sleep better at night :)

I was looking a a power conditioner that has not been mentioned. I don't see them mentioning joules rating.

I wonder if some of you more up on the technology could take a look at this info and tell me if they are using MOV's or not.

They give this info.
Lightning and Surge Protection: ANSI/IEEE C62.41. Categories A and B.

Surge suppression. CLC plug-in units include solid state, multi-stage Sentrex surge suppression for lowest letthrough
of any power conditioner

Are there buzzwords there that tell the story?

I have attached a file.

Thanks,
Barry

Ok, I read through this entire thread yesterday and learned a lot more than I ever wanted to about surge supression, etc.

I wanted to get ya'll thoughts on a possible setup. My components in my HT system are:

Sammy HLN617W TV
Kenwood VR407 receiver
HTPC w/ 350W power supply (should be built w/in the month)
Motorola Cable Box

I had originally planned on buying an APC UPS like the ES750 (mostly for the Sammy's needed bulb cooldown), but ya'll have pretty much convinced me that my money is better spent getting a Brickwall. Of course the Brickwall 8 outlet unit is at 3x as much as the UPS.

So my question is, to keep the cost down as much as possible while providing the proper protection my equipment deserves, could I purchase just the 2 outlet Brickwall 15A version and plug the TV into one outlet while plugging a cheap MOV based powerstrip into the other outlet to power the rest of the components?

Or should I just fork out the extra $45 bucks for the 8 outlet Brickwall?

Thanks,
tsw

Go for the eight outlet. You never know when you may need more outlets for new equipment!

So my question is, to keep the cost down as much as possible while providing the proper protection my equipment deserves, could I purchase just the 2 outlet Brickwall 15A version and plug the TV into one outlet while plugging a cheap MOV based powerstrip into the other outlet to power the rest of the components?

tsw, I have the same question.

Go for the eight outlet. You never know when you may need more outlets for new equipment!

Fedreams (or anyone else), wouldn't the powerstrip (plugged into the Brickwall) provide the extra outlets, plus the needed protection?

For anyone looking for high quality power conditioning, filtering, surge suppression and an optional battery back up component for those pesky black-outs.

http://www.audiophileaps.com/

Ganted it's a little pricey, but it looks like it operates on a similar principle as the Exact Power EP15A. I'm not sure if it uses MOVs or SM surge suppression. The specs don't list a joules rating so I suspect it's SM.

Nehrue and tsw,

The configuration you suggest would certainly work, but the connections on the cheap (Monster) multi-outlet power strips I've used were always very poor. A power cord can come loose any time you sneeze, making for some VERY loud transients through your speakers. OTOH, it almost takes two people to plug or unplug something from my Exact Power. Those outlets wouldn't let a plug work loose for anything short of a bunker buster.

How much would your approach really save anyway? $30 or so in a $7,000 system? I'd happily spend more than that for safe, robust electrical connections, which I assume the Brickwall has. IMO, YMMV and all that ...

K_Thompson,

That's an interesting unit. Since it regenerates and also limits wattage output (they offer 500, 700 and 1050 watt models) it seems more like a super-efficient P S Audio powerplant than an EP. (The EP does not limit wattage at all.)

Throw in surge suppression plus a battery backup that DOESN'T output square wave hash and you have a very good set of features.

Originally posted by Nehrue
tsw, I have the same question.



Fedreams (or anyone else), wouldn't the powerstrip (plugged into the Brickwall) provide the extra outlets, plus the needed protection?

Wouldn't the extra outlets on the Brickwall negate the use of a power strip.
It seems like duplication to me and you just adding another link in the power chain.

You can save money from not buying a power strip.:D

Hey guys,...
New to the forum,...Have been reading for a few years, but only today registered. What a thread,....Learned a lot. Been doing a lot of AC investigating lately, and this thread helped as well,...Thanks to all that have participated,...
>>>--->

I made a one-day trip to CES and visited the Exactpower booth while I was there. I spoke at length with Bob Rappaport. While there they showed me a demo of the EP15A (I have now been using one in my system for 3-4 months). In the photo below, you can see the green sine wave (EP15A output), and a blue sine wave (input voltage). As I watched, they rapidly varied the incoming voltage from 90v-120v using an industrial variac. The output sine wave (voltage) of the EP15A never varied or flickered even slightly while the blue sine wave jumped all over the screen. It maintained a flawless 120v/60Hz output. I have become so enamored of this device that I am now a fully authorized dealer for them. If you are at all interested, please PM me. FWIW, they won a special 2004 CES award which you will be hearing more about.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ceht/images/ep15a.jpg

Jetlag,

Good to see someone else is enjoying their EP. I've had one since last June and we're very impressed too. One of the most elegantly engineered devices I've seen.

Is it true they're about to introduce an EP20A?

How about including series mode surge protection. The current version of the EP includes two high capacity MOV stages (I think), but we all know what that's worth. Oddly, Rapaport is the one who turned me on to series mode devices in the first place! He referred me to Surgex and that's how my participation in this gigantic thread began. You'd think they'd license the technology to use in their own devices. An EP with series mode protection all in one box would be a killer product.

Update on in home use of the Brickwalls. " just purchased 2 Brickwalls. One is PW2RAUD 20A for my Amp and PW8R15AUD for everything else. My Amp which is a Sherbourn 7/2100 (300X7) seems to be have dynamic compression as others have stated. When I A/B going from the PW2RAUD versus plugged directly into wall, music is clearer and opens up plugged into wall. My amp has dual power cords, so it can get hungry. I have ordered some DIY power cords and since my return policy has expired, I am going to change out the factory cord with larger shielded DIY and see if this improves. The PW8R15AUD for my digital equipment seems to work fine. I have the Pre-amp, DVD, LCD TV, and satellite plugged into this. I am also going to replace the factory cord on this just because.

Strawbeard...

Keep us posted.

I've finally had to admit my soundstage has shrunk somewhat, and sounds less open, running my Denon 3803 through the Brickwall PW8R15AUD...

Bummer, because it is such a neat solution otherwise.

Hmm, I don't have any way of testing whether my Surgex has the same effect, short of running a long extension cord to my power amp - which would almost certainly cause problems itself. Let us know how your power cord experiment goes.

Doug Deacon, it seems that you know alot about surge suppression and line conditioning, just what do you do for a living? Also, what are your thoughts about PSAUDIO Power Director 4.7 and the PSAUDIO Power Plant P1000. I bought the PD 4.7 and I just love it and it's not MOV based and has 14 hospital grade Power Port receptacles, has 40 DB of line cleaning/conditioning, 4 different zones for zone isolation, meters for volts, amps, and wattage usage plus a power factor meter. I love it and have watched as it has powered down during a storm and then came back up with no problems. What is your astute opinion of PSAUDIO?

Yikes! Dont assume that I know what I'm talking about just because I talk alot! I'm no electrician or electrical engineer. The people at Exact Power (who DO know alot) recommended series mode surge protection. Based on that I did a little reading, and put everything I know on that topic in the post linked in my signature.

As far as PSAudio goes, you should know that I've never actually seen one. Everything I've read indicates they are a first class operation run by a knowledgeable guy who designs topnotch solutions. AFAIK, the Power Plants may be the best products out there for what they do, provided you can afford their heat and inefficiency. I couldn't, so I chose the Exact Power. It doesn't provide the near-perfect noise filtering of a Power Plant, but I was willing to live with that to enjoy its cool operation and unmatched efficiency. Definitely a YMMV decision, and I expect you'll be just as happy with your Power Plant.

I'm not familiar with the PD 4.7, but it sounds like a useful product for someone with a large and elaborate system. I have no doubt it's designed and built to the same high standard as every other PSA unit I ever heard of.

The reviewers at Secrets, who know alot more than me, were pretty positive about the PSA products they reviewed. Check out all their power product reviews at www.hometheaterhifi.com/masterindex_power_conditioners.html.

I bought 2 units from ExactPower and when I first hooked them up they sounded great but then I had to move them and re-install them and a fuse blew and I replaced it with what they told me to use but my home theater never sounded as good as the first time so I sent both units back and got the Power Director 4.7 and I'm going to get the Power Plant P1000 as soon as I get my bonus check in June. The build quality of the box was not anywhere close to the PSAUDIO stuff and it sounded tinny if you tapped on the top of the unit. I just didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about the total build quality even though I still wonder about how great the sound seemed to be when I first got the 2 units. My wife told me to turn down the sound and the bass. However the PSAUDIO did the same thing. It increased the depth and brightness of the soundstage. I can't wait to get the P1000 even though it does generate some heat but not as much as they use to and they are heavy but to get perfect power I guess sometimes you have to make decisions and sacrifices. Thanks for the info and the link.

Interesting. Did you contact EP after replacing the fuse to see if they could explain/fix the sonic changes? You'd think they'd try, though I'm glad to see they honored the return policy without a fuss.

I agree the top surface of the EP sounds a bit thin if I tap on it. The tops of my $2K c-j preamp and $4K power amp are even worse. A sandbag or sheet of sorbothane fixes that, but I'm sure we both wish manufacturers of gear at these price points would spend the extra $.50 to properly deaden their enclosures. We could get tinny boxes from CC or BB for 1/10 the money.

Nevertheless, the EP has performed flawlessly through countless brownouts in my system, which is largely what I bought it for. Even when the incoming power seems okay, like late at night, the system is more dynamic with the EP. I trust the PP will work out well for yours.

That's why I say it's probably a great device (I had both units and I can't remember which model numbers) but I did hear a difference initially and the blown fuse could have been my fault when I hooked them back up but I'll never know and then the build quality kind of pushed me to send it back and get the PSAUDIO which has excellent build quality, in fact they may have gone overboard which I don't mind but probably adds to the cost but it is a very solid device. I love the way that plugs clamp into the hospital grade receptacles. I have to go back of my ht system and use to accidentally unplug something. Now that does not happen. Isn't is great when you have a power surge and the unit just powers down slowly and then comes back on when the voltage is safe again. I just love it and feel protected with $40,000 worth of equipment to protect.

The PS Audio Power Director is basically a bunch of Ultimate Outlets in a fancy box with a fancy interface. If you can get by with only 1 or 2 UO's and have no need for the extra convenience features, that route would save you some money and probably sound the same.

AVfile, actually I think that you need to inform Paul of PSAUDIO about that because he has been misled to believe that it is much more. I love the unit and I guess if you had enough talent like you supposedly have you could probably build your own unit. I love the meters (watts, volts, amps, etc.), triple surge protection plus 14 different hospital grade receptacles which you can get in the 4 Ultimate Outlets not 2 and its all about money. If you can't afford it, go with 1 or 2 UOs plus a Power Port receptacle but at least get some reliable protection, line conditioning, power cleaning.

plasmamaniac: I never said the Power Director didn't have more features that some people may appreciate. I'm getting my seemingly crazy info from PS Audio's own site:

Take 4 Ultimate Outlets, a handful of Power Ports, mix in the world's most sophisticated communication interface, and what do you have? The Power Director 4.7!

OK, bar the interface and Triple Power Protection then, you have a bunch of UO's in a box. Is that better as far as the end result (sound & picture quality) is concerned? I doubt it. It definitely seems to offer better protection, configurability, management, ergonomics, etc.

I considered it myself but found the price high compared to buying just the number of UO's I needed. It may be worth it for a more complex system.

That's what I like. Manageability and the meters that tell you about wattage, voltage and amperage. Also, the triple surge protection. I needed 12 to 14 outlets to plug all of my stuff into and I didn't want to have to have 3 or 4 UOs laying all over the place so I like the fact that it's all compact and on 3 or 4 occasions during storms the device has powered down and then come back on smoothly. I was impressed and very pleased. I know it's alot of money but I feel secure and I never see visible artifacts like I did before so that's a big plus. I really enjoy the meters though and that was not one of the reasons that I bought the unit but it's pretty cool to know how many watts are being used by the plasma or by my Denon or whatever. I find that clean power virtually removes all visible artifacts except those caused by compression.

My new RPTV (Mits 65413) is arriving tomorrow and I started reading this thread since I'm considering better surge control/conditioning. The original question concerned both but the thread has centered on surge suppression. I grew up in the midwest and know the risks of lightning but now live in S. California and this is less of a concern. The original question also asked if line conditioning makes any noticeable difference - opinions on this aspect independent of surge suppression? Thanks.

Conditioning - the audiophiles swear by it and we employ it at work in the military gear we design. Most of the testaments one reads are however subjective. If you're looking for objective (i.e. measurements) related to audio performance check out the "Wideband Noise Spectrum FFT" here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/dvd-benchmark-part-2-audio-9-2000.html

Results vary for different DVD players, so you have to click on specific model reviews - links located at the bottom of the Introduction page.

Regarding the Exact Power EP15A, in my system, IME:

Audio - significant increase in dynamic headroom, so less compression during loud, complex passages; wouldn't want to be without it

Video - slight improvement in pixel stability results in more stable and believeable PQ; not as big a deal (for me) as the audio improvements

General - provides total stability during the frequent brownouts in our area. Lights can dim or even go off for a second, but nothing plugged into the EP ever notices. This is why we bought it and it does the job.

Obviously YMMV depending on your system and the reliability of electrical service.

Hi.. just spent and hour or so reading this thread and I'm debating the UPS issue due to purchasing a RPTV. Most of the comments regarding UPS units revolve around the pseudo-sine waves or worse yet square waves the cheaper ups units output. If I remember correctly, APC's "Smart UPS" line has always been a sine-wave output unit... and up until a few years ago, I had a whole set of APC literature (none of which is now on their web site) discussing their sine-wave output of the their "Smart Series" I agree, using the the cheaper Back-UPS units would not be ideal for most consumer audio electronics but it seems to me that the best solution for providing shutdown time for those large RPTV fans is a Brick Wall Unit + APC Smart UPS or a SurgeX + APC Smart UPS.

The plus side of the APC units is that in 3-5 years when the batteries fail, you can find replacements for usually less than $75.00 if you look. My only caution is that the older APC units (900, 1000, 1250s) were not designed for "user replaceable" batts, (very shortsighted) and if you buy one of those, you need to be very handy and VERY aware of the deadly voltages inside if you plan to replace the batts yourself when they fail. There are some live exposed parts in an open unit with significant voltages on them even after the power has been removed!

BTW.. you can find these Smart UPS units for sale reconditioned and certified w/ new batteries for substantially less than a new unit.

Is anybody using a SM Surge Protector, other than Brickwall, but similar in price, with a Sine-Wave UPS?

If so, are there any negative effects in regards to heat or audio/video?

Originally posted by gattaca
...If I remember correctly, APC's "Smart UPS" line has always been a sine-wave output unit... and up until a few years ago, I had a whole set of APC literature (none of which is now on their web site) discussing their sine-wave output of the their "Smart Series" I agree, using the the cheaper Back-UPS units would not be ideal for most consumer audio electronics but it seems to me that the best solution for providing shutdown time for those large RPTV fans is a Brick Wall Unit + APC Smart UPS or a SurgeX + APC Smart UPS.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you sure the Smart UPS lines have a true sine-wave output? I haven't been able to find this documnted anywhere. If they are, then you have a great suggestion of using these just to hook up the GWIII which will allow proper powerdown. I'd like to also connect my replayTV as well for the same reason.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Jetlag,

Good to see someone else is enjoying their EP. I've had one since last June and we're very impressed too. One of the most elegantly engineered devices I've seen.

Is it true they're about to introduce an EP20A?

How about including series mode surge protection. The current version of the EP includes two high capacity MOV stages (I think), but we all know what that's worth. Oddly, Rapaport is the one who turned me on to series mode devices in the first place! He referred me to Surgex and that's how my participation in this gigantic thread began. You'd think they'd license the technology to use in their own devices. An EP with series mode protection all in one box would be a killer product.

This is an email I received from Bob at Exact Power regarding the new EP20A:

Hi Ken,

We are beta testing the first EP20A's off the line right now. They have not
been released for sale to consumers yet but should be soon. Check back with me in 4 weeks.

The price will be $2995. It is rated for 2360 watts. Thats all I have so
far on specs.

Ciao,
Bob

$2995 - OUCH! I wonder how many outlets it has? I'll post any updates as I receive them.

Ken

Originally posted by bobby_t1
Are you sure the Smart UPS lines have a true sine-wave output? I haven't been able to find this documnted anywhere...

Oops..nevermind. I found this quote from UPS' website: http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=165


Sine-wave output provides assurance of compatibility with all loads. (Does not apply to SU420NET/SU620NET models).


So this means that this should negate any previous comments about not using a UPS for our AV equipment?

Yes.. the higher powered APC "Smart UPS" series (except as noted) and the APC "Matrix" models produce sine-wave output as I remembered from when I examined this 4 or 5 years ago while searching for the best UPS at that time. The lower cost models (Back-UPS...) produce pseudo/stepped sine-wave and I'd NOT use those on anything without a switching power supply which today is NOT most consumer electronics.. but that's changing. I think i'm going with the outlet -> Brick wall Series Mode --> APC "Smart UPS" --> DLP setup we have discussed here. At least my DLP will have time to cool that $$ bulb down which is the primary reason I think one is needed.. we get too many blips here too.

Note: If you decide to plug your whole system into a UPS, obtain a good sized one and make provisions for handling the inrush current with switch on delays on the amps but other than that , this thread has been very helpful. But each person's mileage may vary, use your own judgement.

Bob - thanks for the update on the EP20A. The last time I looked the EP15A was retailing for $1995. A 50% premium for just 33% more current does seem a bit steep. $2495 feels more sensible to me, but what do I know? :)

gattaca - that would be excellent news about the Smart UPSs. We've only had one shutdown in 15 years, so it's not worth it for me, but it certainly seems like the right idea if your power goes down more frequently.

Perhaps I missed the answer in this long thread, but I understand that most Monster surge protectors offer a coxial input which protects the coax cable.

Well most of us have multiple coax cables right....I mean my Directv dish is a triple LNB and I have an antenna in the attic that runs on coax.

So my question is this....with a triple lnb dish and an OTA, which coax is the one that should be plugged into the Monster Surge protector or am I missing something else???

I run both coaxial cables into my Samsung and then run the ouput from that into my surge protector, so the worst thing that could happen is that I would have to get a new STB if lightning struck.

corinthbandit,

ALL your coax lines should be protected. When you leave the house do you lock the front door but leave the side door wide open?

Check the thread linked in my signature. About 2/3 of the way down I reference the Surgender coax surge protectors. These cost only about $5 apiece. That's pretty cheap insurance, certainly cheaper than using your STB as a sacrificial lamb!

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
I reference the Surgender coax surge protectors. These cost only about $5 apiece. That's pretty cheap insurance, certainly cheaper than using your STB as a sacrificial lamb!
A Radio Shack coax surge protector is also mentioned, and it has much better specs. I wonder if it is really better, I can't decide which one to buy. Any insights?

I bought four of the Surgex coax suppressors...Two were DOA...passed no signal.

FWIW

Funny I came across this thread and was not looking.

I just purchased and installed a Monster HTS 850 power strip with clean power stage 1. WOW!!! Significant improvement in Sound and Picture quality especially HD.

I imagine results may vary, but I am happy.

Steve

Originally posted by moonhawk
I bought four of the Surgex coax suppressors...Two were DOA...passed no signal.

FWIW

Inexpensive safety product I have been using for 4 months. Don't know if its actually works because it has not been challenged.

Place to buy:
http://dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

JD

Thanks...Looks like the same deal.

moonhawk, I assume you meant 2 Surgenders were DOA, not Surgex(?). At least we know that "something" will trigger them! That's how they're supposed to act when they get hit with a surge. I trust the seller replaced them?

QZ1, I agree the specs of the RS 15-1110 seem better. I've never seen a direct comparison though.

at $3.00 per I didn't bother.

The ones jdmoser referenced, which look like a re-label of the same thing, say they're supposed to take a lot of hits.

You're right. I should re-read my own posts once a year! They only fail to pass signal after multiple hits.

I have a Mitsubishi WS-65511 RPTV. I have visible noise in the video. This is present on all inputs, including the integrated HDTV, and the internally generated menus. The noise is there at all times, doesn't seem to increase or decrease in intensity, and doesn't change whether any othere devices I have attached or in the house are on or off.

The service guys have replaced several boards already. But I'm wondering if high frequency noise can come in through the A/C power, not be filtered by the power supply, and be amplified sufficiently to show up on the CRTs. Do I need to get an A/C power filter? Is there any way to check this to be sure before making such a purchase?

Xesdeeni

Originally posted by Xesdeeni
I have a Mitsubishi WS-65511 RPTV. I have visible noise in the video. This is present on all inputs, including the integrated HDTV, and the internally generated menus. The noise is there at all times, doesn't seem to increase or decrease in intensity, and doesn't change whether any othere devices I have attached or in the house are on or off.

The service guys have replaced several boards already. But I'm wondering if high frequency noise can come in through the A/C power, not be filtered by the power supply, and be amplified sufficiently to show up on the CRTs. Do I need to get an A/C power filter? Is there any way to check this to be sure before making such a purchase?

Xesdeeni

You can check with a local hifi shop and see if you can "home trial" a power conditioner. You might have to place a deposit to do this. Or you could go to your local big chain shop and utilize their generous return policy if it doesn't work.

You might want to try a Richard Gray 400 or a similar model.

Xesdeeni-

I've been noticing a lot of noise in my RPTV lately as well. At first I thought I was the set, but I noticed a lot of noise in the upstairs CRT TV as well... I'm going to try a power conditioner and see if that helps...

Is there something that works almost as good as the Richard Gray 400? Are the monster striping with stage 2 v2.0 power conditioning any good?

Thanks,
Chris

This is a very informative thread. I was linked here from another site and spent the rest of the day making my way through. Does anyone have any new/better information on the Empower units? Anyone actually own one? Any reputable online retailers for this? I did a search on this forum and some others and came up with nothing. I just emailed them requesting some pricing info. I was leaning toward the Adcom units, but if these perform the same/better and are in the same price class I could reconsider. They certainly look more stylish. Thanks.

Btw, anyone reading this who hasn't read the rest of the thread and doesn't know what I'm talking about see
here (http://www.empowerac.com)

Quick question: If I have a power conditioner/surge suppressor for all of my audio/video gear and wish to use a UPS to provide cooling capacity for a DLP RPTV in the event of a power failure, do I simply daisy-chain the RPTV to the UPS and UPS to the power conditioner or should these be reversed? Or one left out entirely?

Thank you,

VN

videonewbie,
A UPS will not provide suitable surge protection, so you need to keep the surge suppressor in the chain. (I assume your surge suppressor is a series mode type, as discussed in the link in my signature.)

There's been much useful discussion on this thread regarding the use of UPS's in an HT environment. If it isn't a "Smart" UPS that outputs a clean sine wave, the concensus is that you probably shouldn't use it. Most UPS's put out a very ugly square wave, not good for TV's or audio.

Hope this helps.

Wow! Found this thread almost by accident and I (guess) I'm glad I did. :D After spending the majority of the afternoon trying to absorb it all, I think I have some of the main points, but now more confused about others, so maybe some of the more educated folks can help.

I am building a HT in my basement and have a number of components that I want to protect. I figured that I would be running a dedicated 20A circuit for the components and have a separate 15A circuit for the CRT PJ, which could also be used for HT lighting, etc. Originally, I had narrowed down my surge protection/line conditioning choice to the Panamax 4400, which is 20A capable, and has delays on the switched outlets that you can program so as not to cause a huge current spike when everything comes on. But now that I have read about MOV and SM (not S&M!!:) ) protection, I am rethinking my choice.

I currently have 8 A/V components that I will be protecting, so I need something with a good number of outlets. After checking out all the sites in Doug's 7/11 post, I am amazed at the different choices. I am a bit nervous about the Brick Wall offerings if people are seeing an impact on the dynamics of their audio; I really don't want to impact sound quality, so I'm thinking that brand is out.

I still like the idea of line conditioning, and with the Panamax, they mention that it protects from over or under voltages. The SurgeX SX1120 RT mentions line conditioning in their data sheets. But I can't find any mention of conditioning in the ZeroSurge sheets, for the 1MOD20DI. Do these products have line conditioning?

I'd rather not buy several components, like one of the 2R series from ZeroSurge, and then still have to get something to plug all the components into, unless there is a valid argument for doing so. I suppose get the 2R series and then get the Panamax unit and I would still be under $500, as I can find the 4400 for about $250. I can work with the $429 price for the ZeroSurge 1MOD20DI, but I can't find any prices on the SurgeX, so I don't know if that one is out of the park. My network admin at work has blocked sellcom.com, so I'll have to check that out at home for pricing. Where else can you order SurgeX products?

Living in Colorado, I have to deal with lightning, so I want a surge protector, but I don't really feel the need for a UPS and I can't really justify some of the really high price units. Is the delay feature of the Panamax on any of the SM units, and is it really necessary? I want good protection, line conditioning (if that's important) and no impact to my audio quality. Any help and advice would be appreciate. And be somewhat gentle as my brain is on overload with this topic. :) Thanks.

Rob

jhawk92,

You have PM. It's gentle and contains no SM!

jhawk92,

If you are running anything that requires power to cool down projector bulbs...(DLP projectors, ...) then i suggest you look further into putting a good sine-wave UPS on that part of your setup. Good refurbished SMARTUPS APC units can be had for a couple hunderd dollars delivered which are more than capable of powering most if not all of most A/V equipment. While APC is not the only UPS on the market, it is the most prevalent and there are a lot of refurbs due to trade-ins, trade-ups and people just thinking they are dead b/c the battery wore out and needed replacing. Ive seen UPS units at the county recycling dump site which I was willing to bet just had dead batteries.. I'd look at 1000VA and up models but your need really depends on the power demands of what you need plugged into it. Just make sure it is a sine-wave unit and not pseudo-sine or square-wave sine like most of the less expensive lines.

Vincent

Originally posted by Christcorp
I'm really sorry if I seem to be making this question difficult. That's not my intention. I will try once more to explain my question. I know what a Surge Suppressor is and does. I know what a power line conditioner is and what it does. I have surfed the forums and the net for information. Most answers are either manufacturer biased, uninformed opinions. Thus, the reason I'm asking the forum.

My question simply is,,,, Do the high priced surge suppressors like Monster HTS1000 or the Panamax 4300 provide any better protection of suppressing surges compared to a $30 surge suppressor from wal-mart??? Also, some like the Monster claim that they clean the power up. Again is all this valid or is it a marketing hype???

IF they DO provide a noticable improvement and difference, then WHAT should I be looking for in one of these high priced Surge Suppressors??? Thx... Mike... well ill tell ya--i had the monster hts 700- 80.00 1 stage filtering unit on my new sony lcd 42 in tv and the std stations stunk-grainy etc-i got the hts 2000 on ebay new for half what the stores cost and was amazed at the improvement on std stations after running the cable in to the unit and then out=made the std stns look digital it cleaned them up so much-IMHO-standard piece of equipment for everyone with a good tv

Doug-
Your PM did not make it through. Please try again, or let me know and I can give you my email addy.

Vincent-
I'll be using a CRT front projector, so I don't think I'd need to worry about UPS to help power that down, unless there is a need for it.

jhawk92,

I just sent it again. My error, I mis-spelled your name.

Why is it on this paticular forum noone can just give a person an answer instead 30 people have to post the samething your not using the terms corectly search for this or search for that. The man asked a legitimate question. If this reply gets me banned so beit but it seems very uptight in here when you try to ask a question. I'm not trying to offend I just fail to see the point. I consider myself a avid home theatre buff and looking for someone that has more answers than me help me instead banish me to a lesser known evil. I may not know as much as you in this paticular forey,which is why I am asking you. THanks for the help in advance.

Sorry I'm off topic but I do have the same query as the author of this thread, and I have searched and have pounded the street trying to determine what is the difference and why I should pay $699.00 for a power conditioner that will enhance a digital display. When the picture already looks fine to me.

Originally posted by IOC
Why is it on this paticular forum noone can just give a person an answer instead 30 people have to post the samething your not using the terms corectly search for this or search for that. The man asked a legitimate question. If this reply gets me banned so beit but it seems very uptight in here when you try to ask a question. I'm not trying to offend I just fail to see the point. I consider myself a avid home theatre buff and looking for someone that has more answers than me help me instead banish me to a lesser known evil. I may not know as much as you in this paticular forey,which is why I am asking you. THanks for the help in advance.

Sorry I'm off topic but I do have the same query as the author of this thread, and I have searched and have pounded the street trying to determine what is the difference and why I should pay $699.00 for a power conditioner that will enhance a digital display. When the picture already looks fine to me.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!
Yours is a valid question! I am also in search of the "perfect" power conditioner and currently am running several different ones in my system. All of which are making some kind of difference (improvement). I have an BPT 3.5, Quantum RT800, Quantum Symphony Pro, Quantum Electroclear, Enacom AC filter and API Power wedge 113. I am currently looking forward to testing the EP 2400. There are alot of great people in this thread who have the time and/or resources to test out various forms of equipment and post their observations. In my opinion, no one can really tell you what you are seeing or hearing. Power conditioners are like any other piece of equipment that you add to your system. If it is in your budget and makes a difference (visually or audibly) then keep it. If it doesn't, then chock one up for experience.
If you picture looks fine to you, leave it alone. If you have an extended budget, experiment!
Most people may prefer one brand over another, but that is personal preference, just like with anything else out there for sale.
Best of luck!

Originally posted by IOC
...I have searched and have pounded the street trying to determine what is the difference and why I should pay $699.00 for a power conditioner that will enhance a digital display. When the picture already looks fine to me.
1. As Fedreams said, if you don't perceive a need or problem in your system, don't waste your time and energy "searching and pounding the street". That way you won't have to pound on us either! ;)

2. If you do decide to try an expensive power conditioner do what I did, find a dealer who'll sell it with a home trial period. Most of the top class power conditioning devices (P S Audio, Exact Power, etc.) are sold on this basis. Try it in your system and decide for yourself. No one else can predict what you're going to see, hear or like.

Question, I recently purchased the Monster HTS3600, the audio does sound much improved, howerver the unit itself is making a loud buzz, you can hear it from about 8 ft away, it made the sound ever since I plugged it in with nothing else plugged into it, Ive had it a few days and will be returning it for another to see if it does that. I did call Monster and was told it might be part of a bad batch and to get another one from a different store. Anyone else experience this? Just curious. Also was able to pick it up at almost 40% off.

WOW!!!! GREAT STUFF here, i learned so much ... thats everyone. I do have a question tho.

Im thinkin about getting the brickwall or zerosurge supressor, the question is what amps shoudl i get. I have a dedicated 20A line for my HT system. The system currently has the sammy 50 DLP and will be getting a new receiver and dvd player, and comcasts HD box. Would i need a 20A supressor or should iget a 15A. Also i live in maryland and have no clue if i would need a 'power cleaner' I dont get brownouts, rarely lose power, but we do get some lightening every now and then. Should i consider something like tha Monster HTS 5100 ???

thanks for the input

Originally posted by SMT
Question, I recently purchased the Monster HTS3600, the audio does sound much improved, howerver the unit itself is making a loud buzz, you can hear it from about 8 ft away, it made the sound ever since I plugged it in with nothing else plugged into it, Ive had it a few days and will be returning it for another to see if it does that. I did call Monster and was told it might be part of a bad batch and to get another one from a different store. Anyone else experience this? Just curious. Also was able to pick it up at almost 40% off.

I have the HTS3600 as well and mine does make some noise, however it is only noticeable if I put my ear close to it. It just sounds like electricity flowing which should mean its working.

Just curious SMT, what voltage output was your 3600 displaying normally? Mine ranges anywhere from 121 to 125.

Mine ranges from 123-128, of interest is when changed to amp draw it draws about 2.6-2.9 with all components on

krazibones,

If you have a 20A circuit then put a 20A suppressor on it from brickwall, zerosurge or one of the other Series Mode types.

That will protect you from lightning strikes. There's no point in buying anything else if that's your only concern. If you want to try a Monster 5100 or other conditioner to see if it improves your audio or video, make sure you get it with a no-questions-asked return policy. That way you can keep it only if you perceive a benefit.

Originally posted by gattaca
jhawk92,

If you are running anything that requires power to cool down projector bulbs...(DLP projectors, ...) then i suggest you look further into putting a good sine-wave UPS on that part of your setup...This is good advice I think, but I want to add that IMHO the need for the fan running after a projector is turned off is more to cool the lamp TO SAVE THE ELECTRONICS not so much to extend lamp life!

Example: My company had an expensive portable LCD front-projector whose LCD was ruined owing to the unit's having been shutdown by just pulling-the-plug on it. There was a big-time warning in the user guide to not do this, but well sometimes when the show is over it's hard to remember the sequence (turn it off with the power switch, wait for the fan to turn off itself, and then pull the plug).

I have an LCD RPTV (GWII), and I don't know how closely proximate the LCD panels are to the projection lamp, but I don't want to take any chances that they could be damaged by high-heat so intend to apply a true sine-wave UPS to my set. I suspect the most delicate part on a DLP is the color wheel--hopefully designers keep that white-hot projection lamp well away from it! My six bits...

Great thread, I've really learned a lot reading it over the last day or so. I'm still curious as to how good the Surgex Empower units work. Has anyone used one or heard about them to give any details? Also, are these units available for purchase online? Any word on street pricing? These definitely look like an attractive do-it-all unit, but no one seems to know much about them.

All

Found a couple of links to what seems to be a new unit...The "Blue Circle Power Ring" Balanced poewr for what seems a more reasonable price..1200 watts for $799.00

Links are to manufacturer and a "Secrets" review.

Enjoy

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/blue-circle-music-rings-line-conditioners-3-2004.html

http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?menu_id=70


(They have other models as well, and other products.)

Just found this stuff, so can't add any personal info, other than this might be the reasonably priced conditioning some of us are looking for. I don't think it does surge suppression.

OK, just read further...

It does have MOV Surge suppression.

The four Models are:

MRV800 $699
MRV1200 $799
MRV1800 $1299
MRV2400 $1599

Hi Moonhawk,

Blue Circle makes pretty well regarded audio equipment, but reading through your links quickly I think you'd get even better value from the SP-15A balanced power unit from Exact Power.

They make two versions. Both pass 18 amps like the $1299 BC MRV1800, but the EP units cost only $899 or $999. They include more outlets (8) and half are shielded from the other half for digital/analog seperation. The $999 version adds EMI/RFI filtering, which is only needed if you're not running it from the EP-15A voltage regulator, which already has those filters. I don't think the SP-15A's include any MOV surge protection, but as we all know by now - who cares?

Doug

Thanks...I've sent an email to blue circle asking them for more info, and about their filtering options. Meanwhile I'll check out the EP products...I'd been under the impression they were higher priced.

any further purchase than my Brickwall is a ways off, so I'll have some time to check these all out.

I'd still like an all in one. I'm not happy with the soundstage reduction of my Brickwall. Can anyone tell me if the other reasonably priced Series Mode surge suppressors work without reducing the soundstage/dynamic range?

Moonhawk-
I was asking about your Brickwall problem on another forum and got an answer back that might apply. From what I understand, Brickwall started with the 15A models, mainly for industrial use. Once audio folks found out about the technology, they also bought the units. Some people who had power hungry systems ran into current limiting issues, which impacted their soundstage. Sounds like this may be your problem too? Now that Brickwall is doing the 20A model, that shouldn't be a problem.

Others experienced a "hum" with the older models, but now that the "AUD" models are out, the hum has disappeared. I'm more comfortable with that info, so I am interested in the 20A Brickwall modular unit. I also asked about SurgeX and Zero Surge and nobody has had soundstage issues with those products. SurgeX was a pretty popular brand. Hope that helps on your side.

On a related topic, to me, the Brickwall RM20 Modular looks to be the same as the Zero Surge 1MOD20DI. Am I imagining things?

http://www.pricewheeler.com/prodrm.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/modsres.html

moonhawk, the voltage regulation unit from EP is more expensive, much more. Currently $2K+ depending on model. But their balanced power units are as I mentioned.

I haven't tried my power amp on any circuit except the one protected by my Surgex. FWIW, the dealer I bought the Surgex from said it had no audible impact on his all Marc Levinson system. You might say "What else would a dealer say?", but this particular dealer is the one who talked me out of buying the balanced power unit from EP. I already had the EP15A and, according to him, that gives 95% of the benefit. In his view the last 5% wasn't worth $800 unless the rest of my system was perfect. I have to trust a guy who refuses an $800+ sale that I was prepared to do.

Doug

Thanks again...

1: Which Surgex do you have?

2: Did your dealer talk you out of the more expensive EP filtering units, or the Balanced Power ones you mentioned in your first posts?

3: IOW, which unit did he say had no audible impact, the Surgex(i.e. a negative audible impact, like my Brickwall) or the most expensive EP units (i.e. a positive impact?)

1. I have the Surgex SX-15NE, installed on the line near the breaker box in the basement.

2. The dealer talked me out of the balanced power unit after I'd already bought the EP15A. I needed good voltage regulation due to the constant barrage of brownouts we suffer in CT. The EP15A handles that requirement magnificently. He felt adding the balanced power unit would really not do much more.

3. He said the Surgex in his system caused no audible problems. I asked because I'd heard about the compression issues some people were having with their Brickwalls.

He certainly didn't say the Exact Power EP15A had no audible impact, and neither would I. Quite the opposite! It has a very beneficial impact on bass response, dynamics, speed and noise floor. It even stabilized PQ slightly on our Sammy DLP, though that effect was very minor and not worth $1500-2000. But the benefits on the audio side were worth every penny.

Gotcha, Doug

Thanks...I think I'm leaning toward the Balanced power with filtration, though I need more time--and money!--to sort things out.

Also need to find a dealer in my area

Also consider Equitech. .It's the best I have used for both audio and video.

TWD

Thanks, I checked out their site...The son of Q looks interesting...1500 watts, Balanced power, Voltage regulation, and Surge protedtion for about $1200.

While the Surge suppression is not series mode, the unit has a failure warning light and the Suppression module can be easily and cheaply replaced.

So far, it looks like the best affordable one-box solution...I definitely like to keep it simple. Which Equitech do you have? I'm also still looking at the EP units Doug likes, and would like to find out more about the "Empower" line from Surgex.

"Less boxes is better boxes."

I'd also like to know more about Empower, as I have yet to find any user reports on the various forums. I sent and email to their website and someone replied with a phone # for my "local distributor" in Wisconsin. I called that place and the rep couldn't find any info on price, etc. so he has some calls in to some folks. That was on Friday afternoon, so I'm still waiting. Maybe this line is still too new.

I has two Equitech's I have a 2Q that I use on my dedicated audio system. It is very noticeably the best I have used on my audio.

I am using the Q650 on my Sammy DLP. It definitely cleans up the picture with more detail and depth. I loaned it to my friend who has a Sony GWIII 50" and he reported the same results.

I was just over at the Equitech site and noticed that they have a new model the QV1000. I am going to check with Equitech to see if it would be an improvement over the Q650 for my video.

These product aren't cheap. But you get what you pay for. They are virtually indestructible and will last for many, many years.

Another plus for the equitech models I looked at in 10 outlets, including options for isolated CATV inputs (not an issue for me) and "oxygen-free copper" throughout...for $300 more.

Well, at least the 10 outlets could be useful!

I'm going back to the EP website to see if the balanced power units do any voltage regulation...The "Son of Q" and "Son of Q jr" from equitech regulate voltage to within 2.5% which is decent I think, for a lower end model---
$1200 and $800 respectively, the difference being Amps.

The higher end models ($1800 and up), regulate the voltage a little beter. IIRC.

At any rate, balanced power, voltage regulation, and an easily replaced surge suppression module for a reasonable price in one unit looks good to me.

TWD..

Is the equitech your only surge suppression?

Yes.

I got some quotes today on the Empower 1100 and 2100. The cheaper 1100 is still more than twice the similar Adcom unit (ace-615?), and I don't think it has the coax input like the Adcom. Does anyone have some links to user reviews of these Empower units that would convince me that they're worth twice as much?

Has anyone figured out what the Empower units actually do besides surge suppression? They're labeled as power conditioners. How do they perform this function? The website is pretty vague on that point.

BTW, this is still my first choice:

http://www.audiophileaps.com

The APS 1000 conditioner with the EBM 48 battery backup module.

Ken

Has anyone figured out what the Empower units actually do besides surge suppression? They're labeled as power conditioners. How do they perform this function? The website is pretty vague on that point.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. I thought maybe I was missing something. In fact, I sent something along those lines to the sales email found on the Empower website. We'll see what they say.

K_Thompson,

Those Audiophile APS units look very interesting. From a quick read of their web site I'd say that for those who need clean voltage stabilization the three best solutions are probably P. S. Audio, Exact Power and these. Each has their pluses and minuses so anyone with this need should investigate them all.

Has anyone had any experience with Tara Labs IDAT?

Well, I'm not too impressed with the folks at Empower. I sent an email each of the last two weeks asking them to expand on their vague website and compare their product to the Adcom ace-615, and I have yet to receive a reply. This doesn't lead me to believe that the extra $500+ is worth it. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has, or can point me to, user reviews.

Originally posted by Brett Miles
Well, I'm not too impressed with the folks at Empower. I sent an email each of the last two weeks asking them to expand on their vague website and compare their product to the Adcom ace-615, and I have yet to receive a reply. This doesn't lead me to believe that the extra $500+ is worth it. I'd still like to hear from anyone who has, or can point me to, user reviews.

Ditto for the folks at Audiophile APS. I've sent them numerous emails asking for dealer locations and more info on the model I'm interested in, but they have yet to respond. I guess they're not too interested in selling me their product. I'm leaning more toward the Exact Power EP15A now - very quick response from them when I asked for more info.


Ken

FYI,

Exact Power is raising prices. The new price for the EP15A is now $2499. If you're thinking about picking one up and can find someone still selling it for the original $1995 - GRAB IT!

Ken

A quote from the GF:

"I'll stop complaining about the cost and complexity of your equipment when I can finally watch my soaps in hi-def."
Old news :) : http://www.soapcentral.com/y&r/news/2001/0611-hdtv.php

Xesdeeni

Originally posted by Xesdeeni
Old news :) : http://www.soapcentral.com/y&r/news/2001/0611-hdtv.php

Xesdeeni

May be so, but she still has no way to record it for later viewing.:rolleyes:

My cable company will supposedly offer a hi-def capable DVR later this year.

Ken

Well, I finally got off the fence and ordered an Exact Power EP15A. I got a deal I couldn't pass up. I should have the unit in about 3 weeks or so.

Ken

Originally posted by K_Thompson
May be so, but she still has no way to record it for later viewing.:rolleyes:

My cable company will supposedly offer a hi-def capable DVR later this year.

Ken That's your job ;) You need to build an HTPC like mine, built around the MyHD MDP-100. It's great! With two small children, we don't ever get to watch anything live, so if I couldn't record HDTV programs, I wouldn't have an HDTV at all.

Xesdeeni

Wow, what a fun way to spend Saturday morning! I have been thinking about a surge/ups setup for some time but because we don't have too much lightning here major surges are not a problem. More of a concern is brownouts and (very) short interruptions in power. I have found on many situations that my SA HD cable box has been turned off and my Tivo is recording a blank screen. Just the other day, both Tivo and set top box needed to be unplugged to reset them. I can only assume that there was a brief power outage during the night.

I have read and understood the deficiencies of a UPS on the tv and audio output, but I assume this won't matter for the Tivo? Or would it? I was thnking of a Brickwall (8 outlet) and hooking it up directly to the wall outlet. Then I'd hook up a UPS to this for only the Tivo and SA cable box. The GWII, HK AVR230, VCR, DVD and Sub would all go directly to the brickwall.

Would this go a long way towards solving my resetting "problem" on the Tivo and cable box, and giving me more piece of mind on the rest of the equipment?

Originally posted by s2krazy
Wow, what a fun way to spend Saturday morning! I have been thinking about a surge/ups setup for some time but because we don't have too much lightning here major surges are not a problem. More of a concern is brownouts and (very) short interruptions in power. I have found on many situations that my SA HD cable box has been turned off and my Tivo is recording a blank screen. Just the other day, both Tivo and set top box needed to be unplugged to reset them. I can only assume that there was a brief power outage during the night.

I have read and understood the deficiencies of a UPS on the tv and audio output, but I assume this won't matter for the Tivo? Or would it? I was thnking of a Brickwall (8 outlet) and hooking it up directly to the wall outlet. Then I'd hook up a UPS to this for only the Tivo and SA cable box. The GWII, HK AVR230, VCR, DVD and Sub would all go directly to the brickwall.

Would this go a long way towards solving my resetting "problem" on the Tivo and cable box, and giving me more piece of mind on the rest of the equipment?

No, the brickwall is only for surges not providing backup power. You would need a combination Brickwall and UPS. There are audio/videophile UPS' out there, but the best solution is to get one of those computer UPS' that have "true sine wave" output. APC makes a series of these called "Smart UPS" i believe which is a higher end model/series compared to their "Back-UPS" which doesn't have true sine wave output.

Price you pay depends on how much runtime you want (the longer it will run the more expensive).

ok which ups will work for my h30 pj it works on 320 watts ? i will need at least 30 min. for proper shut down ?


any help will be great guys thanks

Now I have a headache! I stumbled across this thread this morning and have been trying to digest it all day. I am building a HT and definitely want to protect my investment including:
Yamaha HTR-5790 A/V Receiver,
Cambridge T300 Speakers (each tower includes a 150W sub),
Scientific Atlanta Digital Cable STB (to be swapped for a HD box soon),
Samsung DVD/VCR Combo,
a soon to be added Samsung HLP6163W DLP Rear Projector TV,
and a Monster HTS5000 MKII MOV (yuck) surge suppressor/filter.

If I add a Brickwall Model 2RAVD or Zerosurge Model 2R15W or a SurgeX Model SA15 between the wall and the Monster HTS5000 will this give me a reasonable amount of protection for Central Texas (read: many big thunderstorms)? There seem to be some reports of the brickwall affecting the audio sound stage. Does that also occur with the Zerosurge or the SurgeX?
One final question about UPS's: Since the DLP wants to run the bulb fan for several minutes on shutdown, would a True sine wave UPS like the Opti-UPS PS500 or the APC Smart-UPS be OK or is it going to be sending crummy power to the TV all the time, adversely affecting the picture quality?

Thanks for your help, I've learned a lot today

F16

I'm still struggling with a reasonably priced solution to surges and "cleaner" power and have read many of the threads and web information on the subject. I have read that you CANNOT connect a brickwall, then monster, then UPS. It's too many layers and the UPS will get pretty hot from what I have seen in the experiences of others. Brickwall to UPS to tv is ok and then the other brickwall outlet to a monster to add more outlets and coax protection should work. That's what I'm leaning toward myself. I also have heard about the bricks reducing sound dynamics but have no direct experience with it. Maybe some other authorities can comment?

I'm using a CyberPower 1500 AVR for my HT here in Dallas and in the past 2 weeks it's come in handy due to some serious storms. I'm using it for:

Samsung HLN617W1
Yamaha 2400 A/V Receiver
Samsung TS160 HD Tuner
Denon 1805 5-Disk DVD player
Momitsu DVD Player
XBox
POS VCR

Power went out last week twice, once when the TV was on and it just kept on playing as if nothing happened. No distortion of picture or anything to report while everything is powered up and running.

Tommy

T-trip,

That looks like a very nice solution! Battery backup, surge protection, and a little bit of line filtering to round out. Wonder if it could be connected to a brick since the protectors in the cyberpower are no doubt MOV based. Nice suggestion. ;)

f16falcon,

Any of the series mode suppressors you mentioned will provide the best protection that I've heard of, short of unplugging everything. We had a transformer blow on the power pole outside the house last year. The bang was loud enough to wake the dead, and the surge fried the circuit board in our new stove. The stereo, which was playing at the time, was protected by our Surgex and came through unharmed.

I have no dynamic compression from the Surgex, at all. Early Brickwalls reportedly did have that problem but I think their new audiophile models resolved it.

Using a Smart UPS like T_trip's after a SM surge suppressor would be sensible for a controlled shutdown if you have a lot of outages.

I haven't heard/read about the problems mentioned by HT-Obsession when a Monster is added to the chain. I don't understand why feeding cleaner power into a UPS would cause a problem, unless the Monster limits voltage or current, but what do I know?

Hey Doug,

It's not the Monster itself but the daisy chaining of 3 items. Wall to Brickwall to Monster surge supp to UPS to the TV. I have read that low voltage could be to blame but that the last thing in line (UPS) gets very, very hot which suggests it is not getting enough juice.

RE: Brickwall Surge Suppressor
I remember reading in another forum, that Brickwall recommended the 'AUD' version of their surge suppressor to get the full audio sound-stage. And people who exchanged their surge suppressors noticed the difference.

RE: APC Smart UPS
I was ready to buy one, but then looked at some Newsgroup archives; a few people were reporting that sometimes the battery would suddenly show 'low', and with the house AC working, the UPS would cause the person's computer to go off and on twice, while the battery started to charge.
I am trying to prevent power cycling of my TV, this could cause it. So I am looking for other suggestions for a Sine-Wave UPS.

Before you can even attemp to get clean power, you need to add a female IEC and then replace the weenie 18Ga. zip cord supplied with all displays with something like this.:D







http://gon8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1085249784.jpg

Low and Behold last night during the NBA Playoffs, the power goes off THREE times! After the first I just powered down the Sammy and let the fan cycle until it shut off.
Power comes back on about 30 minutes later and I power the TV back on, no problem.
Power goes out a second time and I'm like, screw it, I'm watching the game. Probably watched for about 15 minutes before the power came back on.
After the 3rd, I just shut it down and went to bed.
All the while, I was powering the STB, Amp and TV with no problems at all. The thing weighs about 60 pounds but paid for itself last night. If I would have been watching with no protection last night, I might have been shopping for a new bulb today.

Tommy

Before you can even attemp to get clean power, you need to add a female IEC and then replace the weenie 18Ga. zip cord supplied with all displays with something like this.

Just curious, what will this power cord pictured do for my DLP? And what does one cost?

Thanks

Jeff

Originally posted by ride525
Just curious, what will this power cord pictured do for my DLP? And what does one cost?

Thanks

Jeff


A good PC will give better clarity and blacker blacks.:) Excellent Power cords can be had used for 250.00 or less. The JPS Digital AC is great for DVD players.

Hook all the above to a Richard Gray line regenator like the 1200S and you add total absence of video noise, deeper and more saturated colors.


YMMV, try before you buy. the 1200S is used by many studios and Videophiles for both A/V.

Originally posted by T_trip
I'm using a CyberPower 1500 AVR for my HT here in Dallas and in the past 2 weeks it's come in handy due to some serious storms. I'm using it for:

Samsung HLN617W1
Yamaha 2400 A/V Receiver
Samsung TS160 HD Tuner
Denon 1805 5-Disk DVD player
Momitsu DVD Player
XBox
POS VCR

Power went out last week twice, once when the TV was on and it just kept on playing as if nothing happened. No distortion of picture or anything to report while everything is powered up and running.

Tommy

I'm a bit new to these items and would like to hook up a Samsung 5663, a Yamaha receiver and an HD TiVo. For the TiVo I was wondering whether the CyberPower 1500 includes inputs for satellite cables and modems and if so, how many? Also, is the 1800 Joules surge protection enough protection for the components I would be using or would I need an additional surge protector? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Originally posted by RMSko
I'm a bit new to these items and would like to hook up a Samsung 5663, a Yamaha receiver and an HD TiVo. For the TiVo I was wondering whether the CyberPower 1500 includes inputs for satellite cables and modems and if so, how many? Also, is the 1800 Joules surge protection enough protection for the components I would be using or would I need an additional surge protector? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Depends on which 1500 AVR we're talking about....

This one: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1500avr.htm

just has RJ11/RJ45 protection. I have been looking at getting one of these to replace my older CP-1500VA....except then run ~$250....and since the old unit still works (I recently replaced the batteries)....I'd rather spend the money on something else like replace my okay DVD player with a better one :rolleyes:

While this newer one I spotted recently...at BestBuy.com

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1500AVR-HO.htm

Does have coaxial cable protection and was about 2/3rds the price...

I currently have a CPS700AVR - http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/700avr.htm providing backup to my ReplayTVs and the associated boxes. So at least my recordings will continue during an outage....

I suppose if I find an 1500AVR-HO for ~$150 shipped....I might consider getting this to extend protection to other stuff in my living room. Right everything else is connected to a Tripplite LC1800 - http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=209.

If I turn my receiver and TV on too close together...the Tripplite lets me know.

The Dreamer.

I have the first one linked and no it doesn't have an input for your satellite, but does for your phone line. I got mine for $215 shipped about 3 weeks ago. I'm powering more than you so I think you should be fine.

Tommy

Originally posted by RMSko
Also, is the 1800 Joules surge protection enough protection for the components I would be using or would I need an additional surge protector? You need better protection IMO. Please check the link in my signature.

Well, I've decided that I'm going to take the plunge and order the UPS...for my TV.

Power blinked for a second here and second there....annoying enough that having the non-UPS protected stuff go down....and the time it takes for them to come back on after a one second power interruption.

Just wonder which rack gets the 1500VA UPS and which rack gets the 700VA UPS.

The Dreamer

Originally posted by TheDreamer

Does have coaxial cable protection and was about 2/3rds the price...

The Dreamer.

Just an FYI on some of the units that have coax protection. There is a real chance that addressable cable boxes will not work behind these devices because they require a two way connection to communicate with the content provider. I guess you could run it through the protection after it comes out of the cable box??

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
You need better protection IMO. Please check the link in my signature.

Your link was very helpful. I'm going to go with the Brick Wall and was hoping you could help with some questions. First, what model would you recommend (assuming I have about 6 devices I want covered)? Where would be the best place to order it from (Brick Wall directly?). Finally, assuming I want battery backup power as well, how would I connect it all, i.e., what would be plugged into the wall outlet etc. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I have spent the last 2 days reading this entire thread and applaud those of you who have taken time out to share your knowledge and information concerning this very important topic. Special thanks to Doug Deacon for his contributions and insight.

I live in South Florida (the lighting capital of the U.S.) and am very concerned about over-voltage AND under-voltage events. Lighting strikes and brownouts are quite common especially during the summer months. Thus, I think it is extremely important for me to protect my anticipated investment/foray into the HT world.

I'm not sure if a one-box solution exists that can solve the problems discussed in this thread. Typically, a unit that has excellent surge protection capabilities is less effective at power conditioning/filtering and vice versa. The other problem that I see is that, by definition, a surge protector will limit the power to your components and thereby limiting the dynamics of your sound and PQ.

With that said, I have two questions concerning surge protectors/power conditioners/voltage regulators:

1. Is there such a thing as a one-box solution that provides a non-current limiting surge suppressor/power conditioner/voltage regulator and performs all 3 functions adequately?

2. If the answer to the first question is "No", then am I wrong in assuming that I should utilize a: (a) series mode based surge protectors (attached to the outlet, coaxial lines and telephone lines) to protect against lighting strikes and other over-voltage events , (b) voltage regulator (preferably with a balanced power feature) to protect against brownouts and other low-voltage events, and (c) power filter/conditioner to achieve "clean" power? Is the filter/conditioner absolutely necessary? What if somebody is satisfied with their PQ and audio...why would the individual feel the need to enhance it? Is the answer simply that when one purchases a voltage regulator one generally receives the benefits of a power conditioner as well?

I guess that's 5 questions and not two! Sorry. :)

GREAT QUESTIONS!


.....answers?

Rmsko,
The proper order to connect things would be Wall >> Brickwall >> UPS >> components. I don't have any advice to offer on particular sources for a Brickwall. As for models, you can see multi-outlet models on their site. But if you want multiple components to have battery backup then a one-outlet Brickwall might suffice. You'd need a multi-outlet UPS.

I'd suggest getting a sheet of paper and diagraming your components and how they'd all be powered. Then you'll know how many outlets you'll need on a UPS, how many on the Brickwall, etc.

Make sure to get one of Brickwalls "AUD" units. The non-AUD ones are said to limit dynamics.

Gables,
Thanks. I wrote that post nearly a year ago and it appears I'm married to it for life! ;) Glad so many have found it helpful.

Your assumption that a surge suppressor necessarily limits current or voltage is not true IME. As long as it's robustly wired you should have no problems. It is true that users of early (non-AUD) Brickwall models reported this problem. I'm unaware of any such reports about their AUD models, and I'm confident my Surgex does not limit dynamics. I've tried my amp (240w x 2 @ 8 ohms) both with and without the Surgex and can detect no difference on even the most dynamic material.

1. "No." :(
I'm unaware of any one-box solution encompassing the three issues you mentioned. The closest would probably be the Adcom units, which offer SM surge suppression + some filtering. No voltage regulation though.

The new units from www.audiophileaps.com do address all three issues, but I'm pretty sure their surge suppression is MOV-based. You'd still want a SM type suppressor for complete security, especially in a lightning-prone location like yours. They're also less efficient than an Exact Power, though more efficient than a regenerator.

2.
a) Yes. Robust surge suppression is obviously #1. You won't get better PQ, cleaner highs or deeper bass from a fried component! :eek:

b) Yes. Voltage regulation without current limiting is very helpful in brownout prone areas. I live in one of those too. Our lights dim, the AC and refrigerator compressors shudder, but my stereo/HT flies through it all unfazed. This is entirely due to my Exact Power EP15A, which provides the additional benefit of being a current reserve when the big amp needs it. The system is more dynamic with the EP than without it.

The benefits of balanced power, filtering, etc. are less known to me, since I haven't actually tried them. I asked my EP dealer whether I should buy their balanced power unit. He actually passed up an $800 sale by saying, "Doug, the EP15A will give you 95% of the benefit. Exact Power's balanced power unit is excellent, but unless you're making an all-out assault on the high end I'd rather not sell you one. Live with the EP15A for a while before you decide." How could I refuse advice like that? My money was on the table and my dealer refused to pick it up. Love the guy. That was 14 months ago and I haven't felt any urge ask again. Other things in my system would benefit more from the same dollars.

If you do decide to try anything in the balanced/conditioning/filtering department, either buy it used from someplace like Audiogon or get it from a dealer who offers a trial period. My dealer offers that on everything he sells.

Doug,

Thanks for all your input to this thread, may you both live happily ever after, till death do you part. After reading what T_trip had to say I think I will try a UPS. I think a 1500VA UPS will run my entire home theater like T_trip is doing with his CyberPower 1500AVR. From looking at their web site though, I think the 1500AVR puts out a "simulated sine wave". They do have a Model PP1500 that has a "pure sine wave" output. I cannot find any price information on that model from them or anywhere else so far. I will email them and see what they say. That model also has Automatic Voltage Regulation so maybe it's a case of "If I have to ask, I can't afford it". I looked at the Exact Power EP15A like you have but it is not in my budget yet!

QZ1 says (above) there might be "power cycling" issues with the APC Smart UPS so I am not really sure which UPS I should be looking at. T_trip does not seem to be having any audio/video degradation issues with the "simulted sine wave" on his unit even though I read earlier in this thread that it was very important to have a true sine wave output. Has anyone heard anything good or bad about OPTI-UPS? They have a true sine wave output. Are there any aother UPS units I should be looking at? The bottom line is that now I think I will set up my system as follows:

Wall>SurgeX>UPS>Monster 5000 (Filters)>Equipment

The Monster has 10 outlets so everything can plug into that.

Does anyone see any reason this would not provide me with everything I need short of Voltage Regulation?

Thanks everyone for their knowledge and input.

I'm actually been thinking about whether I need a better power strip between my UPS and my equipment. The power strip is there because UPS doesn't have enough outlets to plug in all my stuff. But, is extra filtering important...and are there strips that do this.

I suppose I'm more interested in the effect of the simulated sinewave output on my equipment. Though the only thing I'm really concerned out is how my Samsung DLP will respond to it. I've done other stuff on a UPS for a few years...and the only significant thing is that it throws the clock off on some of my VCRs....basically the ones that depend on powerline frequency to stay in sync.

I've also been trying to figure out what I'm all going to need, because I plan to take everything apart and rewire it cleanly...and hopefully it'll be a couple more years before the slow addition and removal of components turns the wiring into a birds nest again.

Though I also have a lot of upgrades planned throughout this year...so there's a balance between getting extra protection/capacity to cover the new stuff and minimizing the work to get things reasonably organized again.

The Dreamer.

Doug,

Thanks for your help. What function provided by your Exact Power unit do you attribute your sonic improvements to? In other words, is the voltage regulation function causing the greater depth and dynamics to you HT system, or is it the power filtration provided by the EP 15A, or both? I'm not sure you can tell, but I'm curious. It seems to me the consistent voltage passing through your system is optimizing the performance of your components. The fact that the Exact Power also provides "some" filtration is an added bonus, albeit a small one.

At the end of day, if one has a limited budget, one should first purchase a quality series mode surge protector and then, if possible, invest more $$ in a quality voltage regulator that provides some power filtration. This combination will protect against lightning strikes and brownouts while improving the overall quality of one's HT system. Products that claim to condition or filter power first and that also provide some other ancillary benefits (e.g., surge protection), will not protect against low-voltage incidents and may not provide enhanced performance because there is no guarantee of consistent current. Is this a fair statement?

Originally posted by f16falcon
QZ1 says (above) there might be "power cycling" issues with the APC Smart UPS so I am not really sure which UPS I should be looking at.
The newsgroup archives were from over three years ago. I just read them over again, and it was one person that said, a few times the Smart UPS battery indicated it was full, but then the computer would power cycle twice, and then the battery would indicate it was low. The other person's Smart UPS destoyed all his PC components, he replaced the components, and then they were destroyed again.

IIRC, APC is the leader in UPSs, more people use them, so we are going to hear about a few defects. I haven't researched user comments about any other brands of Sine-wave UPSs; I will research some more.

It seems to me the only things you would need to protect with battery backup is the bulb in a DLP, or similar in other display types to keep them from overheating in a power outage, and possibly a TIVO or PVR to preserve a recording while unattended. (That would include Cable Box/Sat receiver I suppose.)

I don't know if either of those require a "pure sine wave", so it may make your search easier, and less expensive.

APC advertizes some non-sive wave models specifically for TIVOs and PVRs, so I imagine they would be fine for that purpose.

I would not back up any high end audio with non sine wave juice however, just to be on the safe side.

Just wait for the power to come back on.

Originally posted by moonhawk
APC advertizes some non-sive wave models specifically for TIVOs and PVRs, so I imagine they would be fine for that purpose.

I would not back up any high-end audio with non sine wave juice however, just to be on the safe side.
Well, we are talking about high-end TVs (LCDs/DLPs). Earlier, somebody mentioned he had a TV connected to a square-wave UPS, which was connected to an SM surge suppressor, and it caused the surge sprsr. to get too hot. I would use a sine-wave UPS for a TV, especially if one is additionally using an SM surge sprsr.

QZ1

Thanks for the correction...

Originally posted by Gables
Thanks for your help. What function provided by your Exact Power unit do you attribute your sonic improvements to?I'm reasonably sure the increased bass response and dynamics are due to the hefty transformer in the EP. I believe that provides a ready source of current when the amp suddenly demands it. I expect you're right that all the components are "happier" seeing a non-clipped 120V sine wave, but I'd be descending into the realms of voodoo if I pretended to say that I've heard anything from that.

At the end of day, if one has a limited budget, one should first purchase a quality series mode surge protector and then, if possible, invest more $$ in a quality voltage regulator that provides some power filtration. This combination will protect against lightning strikes and brownouts while improving the overall quality of one's HT system. Products that claim to condition or filter power first and that also provide some other ancillary benefits (e.g., surge protection), will not protect against low-voltage incidents and may not provide enhanced performance because there is no guarantee of consistent current. Is this a fair statement?
Totally agree. We bought our surge suppressor first, it's the obvious first step. We bought the EP several months later when we got sick of dealing with brownouts. The EP is magnificent through those. Whether we need any other filtration is hard to know. You can never really say about some of this stuff until you try it, and so far we haven't. FWIW, like most serious audiophiles our system sounds best late at night. That may be an indicator that yet more filtration/conditioning would be beneficial during the day.

Hey, it's late at night and Ashkenazy's playing an LvB sonata on a pristine Decca LP. To h*ll with this digital/HT stuff, I'm off to listen to some real music. (Troll alert! :D )

Doug: Thanks for all your help. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible before spending thousands of $$$ on an HT system.

I'm thinking AUD model brickwall at this point. Only $20 diff between 2 outlet and 8 outlet version I will go for 8 and be done for now. Voltage reg/batt backup can come later if needed.

If I put the surge sprsr. and UPS outside of the TV cabinet, is it okay to have the surge sprsr. sitting on top of the UPS?

Alternatively, could I put the surge sprsr. only inside the TV cabinet?
(It has glass doors, and would have as much ventilation as required for other audio components.)

My Surgex surge suppressor generates no heat at all, zero. AFAIK the Brickwalls, Zero Surges and Adcoms would not do so either.

I finally ordered the Samsung HLP6163 61" DLP RPTV using the Power Buy. I think I have all the power related items I'll need when it gets delivered in August (argh). I ended up going with the Brickwall Model 2RAUD for the series mode surge protection. I got a good deal on a factory refurbished UPC from APC's web site. I ordered the APC Smart-UPS 420VA (Model # SU420NET) which will be enough power for the TV only, which is only thing I really need to power long enough for the fan to run and cool down the bulb after I turn it off. Here is where it gets interesting... APC's web site says that all the Smart-UPS's have a pure sine wave output, that is the main reason I chose them. The owners manual that comes with the unit says that the "on battery waveshape=stepped sine-wave". I emailed APC and they gave me the following response:

"please note that the out put of SU420NET when on battery is stepped sine wave and when online it is pure sine wave. Our Smart-UPS units from SU700 and above give pure sine wave out put when online as well as when on battery."

I don't think it will matter that the sine-wave is stepped for the 10 minutes or so the fan will run after a power failure, but I don't know. Does anyone know if the stepped sine wave can damage the TV? Can someone who has a Samsung DLP RPTV tell me about how long the fan runs after the TV is turned off? I can't image that the fan all by itself draws much power anyway. Thanks.

I cannot answer your ? regarding the power supply design in the Samsung DLP units.. .but most digital power supplies can deal with the stepped sine waves but why risk it? Check http://www.refurbups.com.. .. and for $90.00 you can get a refurbished w/ new batts SmartUPS 700 or for $199.00 a Smart UPS 1400.. look around for the SmartUPS 900 or 1250 too. I personally own a couple of older Smart UPS 1250's and that model is more than enough juice to run my DLP and all related components. The batts are not as friendly on being user replaceable (older models) because of dangerous exposed voltages, so it depends on you knowledge of such things... Later, Vincent

Originally posted by gattaca
I cannot answer your ? regarding the power supply design in the Samsung DLP units.. .but most digital power supplies can deal with the stepped sine waves but why risk it? Check http://www.refurbups.com .. and for $90.00 you can get a refurbished w/ new batts SmartUPS 700 or for $199.00 a Smart UPS 1400..

I wish I had known about getting a refurb'd UPS route....I probably would've gotten the SmartUPS 1400....as it is, I ordered the CPS1500AVR/HO....and I got the tracking number this morning, and they say it'll arrive Friday (instead of the original estimate of Monday).

Which I guess is good...less waiting for a weekend to rip apart my setup to work it in. But, this weekend is going to be busy....finding an open gap between recordings to interrupt power to my PVRs to move cords around...and Time Warner is expected to make an appearance to set me up with HD.

The Dreamer.

Hi Guys,

DLS Warehouse at
dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118
has the Surgender for $2.19, the best price I have found it for on the web.

Interesting thread. I just found it tonight and read the whole thing.

I have a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet (http://www.psaudio.com/products/ultimate_outlet.asp) which I just purchased because I found a good deal on Audiogon. I dunno if I even need it, but it looked cool. Like many, I only started researching the product (which lead me to this thread) *after* I bought it. I guess it's human nature.

Since every other company was discussed in this thread thoroughly except PS Audio, which "product" mentioned in the thread does my UO equate to? The MFG page doesn't state what form of surge protection it uses, if any.

Anyway, I have a Smart-UPS 1400 in another part of my house doing computer work which I'm tempted to relegate to audio duty after reading this thread.

If I wanted to plug my amp in, I assume it goes directly into the UO. If I want to plug the rest of my stuff in (and especially an HTPC which I don't want to turn off), I'd assume it goes from wall->PSAUO->SmartUPS->A/V components & HTPC?

Is this correct?

-Robert

Read through most of this thread again and want to buy a computer UPS that outputs a "true since wave" to use in conjunction with my brickwall.

I researched and found that all the major computer UPS manufacturers (belkin, APC, etc) all make true sine UPS', such as the APC Smart-UPS for not very much more than the standard UPS'.

I already have a Brickwall for surge protection and want to use the UPS specifically for power backup for my ReplayTV and Sony GWIII 50" only.

1) How big of a UPS do I need for my needs?
2) Is it okay to hook up [Wall]-->[Brickwall]-->[UPS]-->[TV + ReplayTV]? (rest of components would be powered directly from brickwall).

In addition to my first question above, I found this tibdit (http://www.pricewheeler.com/prodrm.htm) on Brickwall's site.

Am I to understand that Let Through Slew Rate is perhaps the parameter that limits the dynamic sound of amplifiers? If not, what does that spec mean? Here is the snip of it:

Let-Through Slew Rate: 5,000 volt/µs disturbance reduced to 28v/µs within AC power wave envelope, and less than 10v/µs outside the power wave envelope.

-Robert

I use a refurbished APC SmartUPS 1250 which delivers sine wave power. It runs my whole A/V setup which includes a DLP, Preamps, VCR, ... and several older power amps. - basically everything is behind that APC. Bottom line is you need to examine the total power/watts and make sure you don't exceed the UPS's capacity or it will shutdown. For a TV and just a replay.. the SmartUPS 900 - 1400 should do fine and all you are after is preventing blips and giving the fans time to cool down in case of power failure. The surge and other benefits are freebies :) If you do add a UPS, the other thing to be aware of the startup in-rush current which is the only time my UPS gets taxed so I designed a delay circuit for the 6 power amps to sequence them with poweron of preamp to reduce that initial in-rush surge. However, if you just have the TV and Replay.. you should not have to worry about that. The power on the plates is the maximum power draw of the unit which for most things is conservative due to electrical codes. Later, Vincent.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
2) Is it okay to hook up [Wall]-->-->[UPS]-->[TV + ReplayTV]? (rest of components would be powered directly from brickwall).

just bought a Brickwall myself. I called them and asked the same question. I was told it's OK to plug a UPS into it.

Originally posted by bobby_t1

1) How big of a UPS do I need for my needs?


Check the specs on each box, they should have power consumption (usually in watts) just add them up and get a UPS that can handle at least that many watts. My Samsung DLP TV is 200 watts and the DVD/VCR is only 25 watts, Cable STB is 40 watts. I got the APC Smart-UPS 420VA (260 watts), but I am only plugging the TV into it. As I mention in an earlier post, the APC Smart UPS does not have a true sine wave when running on battery power until you get to their 700VA model. As a side note, the UPS will normally run the equipment a lot longer if the load is lower. Most of the specs for how long the equipment will run on battery power is at about 65% load. On my UPS the specs say 13.5 minutes running 130 watts or 5.5 minutes running 260 watts


2) Is it okay to hook up [Wall]-->[Brickwall]-->[UPS]-->[TV + ReplayTV]? (rest of components would be powered directly from brickwall).


That is how I am going to do it. Brickwall instructions specifically say to plug the UPS into the Brickwall.

Yeah, I was going to say...get the biggest you can afford.....because running a UPS at full load usually only yields about 5-10 minutes of run time. Which might be fine, if that is the extent of your power outages where you live....

It isn't around here...so I wanted to maximize my run time.....at least with my ReplayTVs.....I went with two UPSs on my setup....they aren't true sine way models....but had I known about refurbished SmartUPS, I might have gone this way.

Last summer there was an extended outage....about 45 minutes....the UPS handling my ReplayTV stayed up...and everything was fine. Unfortunately cable went out during the outage (and stayed out until the next day)...I guess having it get knocked out at 10pm...only power was important enough to get restored quickly.

My UPS mainly covers the things I want to have keep running during an outage.. getting a UPS to cover my DLP is a recent extension to my plan....but that only needs to be enough so I can shut it down gracefully should an extended outage come along...or keep it running during a short one (that is inaddtion to all the other power protection I had for it previously).

Don't actually plan to continue watching TV during a power outage....it is too noisy with all the UPSs beeping.....(I'm up to a total of 5 UPSs in my apartment now).

Yes, APC isn't the only company that makes true-sine wave...but unfortunately they are one of the better known ones....

The Dreamer.

Great thread - learned a lot (I think). We have blackouts periodically but fairly short lived - usually just a few seconds.

Equipment planned - Samsung HLP 56" DLP, D*TV HDTV Tivo DVR, plus audio equip, vcr, and DVD. Few questions:

1. If power goes out for just a few seconds, when it resumes, will the TV turn back on? or will it be off, and the fan resume running (the fear everyone seems to have is shorter bulb life b/o improper cooling)?

2. What is the potential damage to the TV in this setting, and what devices would prevent it?

Based on the info I have read in this thread, I am considering the brickwall audio model, and some type of UPS (for TV and Tivo only). Folks seem to feel that a pure sinewave output is best, but these are clearly more expensive (and the used APC smart ups don't appear to have any warranty). So ...

3. If the UPS is non-sinewave (in non-battery mode) will this degrade my TV picture quality?

4. If sinewave (in non-battery mode) but non-sinewave in battery mode,, is this a problem (the TV would be off, I would be just using it to cool down the bulb)?

would like to conisder the APC smart UPS 420, but it seems to be rated only for 260 W.

5. Does anyone know the wattage of a Samsung DLP 56"? (maybe HLN - the hlp in this size isn't out yet) plus the wattage of the D*TV HDTV Tivo PVR? Will 260 w be enough? Trying to save a few $$ - the next size up from APC is 620VA (390w) but a lot more $$.

Thanks much to whomever can answer this.

Djinn

I've been reading on AudioAsylum (http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/psaudio/bbs.html) that the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet does the same thing as the Brickwall, but adds the ability to lower the noise floor and clean up the signal too. It also does not limit dynamics. Of course, its only two outlets, so to get 8 or more, you need a good power strip (or their Power Director 3.5)

Can anyone confirm or deny this? Any comparisons made between these?

I have an UO myself and feel I don't have any need to upgrade further, although a PD 3.5 would be more elegant, and more expensive.

-Robert

Originally posted by Resident Djinn
Great thread - learned a lot (I think). We have blackouts periodically but fairly short lived - usually just a few seconds.

Equipment planned - Samsung HLP 56" DLP, D*TV HDTV Tivo DVR, plus audio equip, vcr, and DVD. Few questions:

1. If power goes out for just a few seconds, when it resumes, will the TV turn back on? or will it be off, and the fan resume running (the fear everyone seems to have is shorter bulb life b/o improper cooling)?

You are correct, improper cooling of the set. main concern is decreased bulb life. Not sure, if it crucially affects other circuits as much as the bulb, but if you have an extra $250 for a spare bulb, no problem.

2. What is the potential damage to the TV in this setting, and what devices would prevent it?

A UPS provdes for the additional runtime of the unit it is powering so that you can continue what you are doing or shutdown properly.

Based on the info I have read in this thread, I am considering the brickwall audio model, and some type of UPS (for TV and Tivo only). Folks seem to feel that a pure sinewave output is best, but these are clearly more expensive (and the used APC smart ups don't appear to have any warranty). So ...

3. If the UPS is non-sinewave (in non-battery mode) will this degrade my TV picture quality?

It might! Being that this is a digital device the pure sine wave output may not be a requirement. Remember though, there is an analog board in your unit for sound, in which the pure sine wave would be to your advantage.

4. If sinewave (in non-battery mode) but non-sinewave in battery mode,, is this a problem (the TV would be off, I would be just using it to cool down the bulb)?

That is your choice, if you wanted to continue watching.

would like to conisder the APC smart UPS 420, but it seems to be rated only for 260 W.

5. Does anyone know the wattage of a Samsung DLP 56"? (maybe HLN - the hlp in this size isn't out yet) plus the wattage of the D*TV HDTV Tivo PVR? Will 260 w be enough? Trying to save a few $$ - the next size up from APC is 620VA (390w) but a lot more $$.

I know the HLN507 uses a 100 watt bulb, but I am not sure on the total wattage. Sorry


Djinn

Originally posted by Resident Djinn
Great thread - learned a lot (I think). We have blackouts periodically but fairly short lived - usually just a few seconds.

Equipment planned - Samsung HLP 56" DLP, D*TV HDTV Tivo DVR, plus audio equip, vcr, and DVD. Few questions:

3. If the UPS is non-sinewave (in non-battery mode) will this degrade my TV picture quality?

That is what I understand. The APC Smart UPS 420 is pure sine wave in non-battery mode (no power outage) and is only a stepped sine wave during battery operation (power outage). So if you want to continue to watch TV it might not be very good.

4. If sinewave (in non-battery mode) but non-sinewave in battery mode,, is this a problem (the TV would be off, I would be just using it to cool down the bulb)?

I decided that was acceptable to me and that is how I am going to operate my system.

would like to conisder the APC smart UPS 420, but it seems to be rated only for 260 W.

5. Does anyone know the wattage of a Samsung DLP 56"? (maybe HLN - the hlp in this size isn't out yet) plus the wattage of the D*TV HDTV Tivo PVR? Will 260 w be enough? Trying to save a few $$ - the next size up from APC is 620VA (390w) but a lot more $$.


I have ordered a 61" HLP from the Power Buy, I can not seem to download the manual from Samsung so am counting on the HLN models to be close. All of the HLN's have a 200 Watt rating. Also, as soon as you turn off the TV during a power failure the power consumption should go way down (the bulb will be off and I suspect it takes most of the power).

Hope that helps, it's just my take on the whole issue.

Originally posted by Resident Djinn
would like to conisder the APC smart UPS 420, but it seems to be rated only for 260 W.


Well, without getting too complicated....power is a vector, VA is total/apparent power (the magnitude) and W is real/true power......there are two dimensions to power...real (resistive) and imaginary (reactive).


X
^
|
|
| 420VA
| __/|
| __/ |
| __/ |
| __/ |
| __/ |
|/ |
+----------------------> R
260W


However, companies seem to have different ideas on what power factor ratio to assume.... Though it seems consumer UPSs tend to be on the conservative side now.....

The Dreamer.

Falcon and Dreamer - thank you both. brickwall and one of the smart APC UPS it is!

One remaining issue ...wattage rating and calculations for what can be safely plugged into a UPS .....

Is the issue about not getting close to exceeding the wattage rating have to do with:

battery mode only?
normal non-battery operation?
if the wattage is too close, I thought I saw somewhere in the thread that the unit can overheat - is that true?
does it appear that the 420VA would be able to handle a TV and Tivo unit?

many thanks.

Djinn

I found this thread (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=psaudio&n=5783&highlight=monster+hts&session=) over on AudioAsylum's PS Audio forum. Granted its a vendor forum, but I thought it was worth a read for you to dispute or agree with.

-Robert

After reading this thread over the past two days I'm exhausted, but much better informed. Thanks to all.

My house has this irritating habit of having voltage drop-offs whenever certain appliances (central air, garbage disposal, etc.) kick on. All the lights dim, and while it does not seem to affect the AV stuff, it cannot be a good thing. We've had both electricians and power companies look at this, without success. We even had a power panel upgrade (when we installed an HVAC unit), including new grounding, that did not fix the problem.

After going through this thread I understand why my surge-suppressor blows, and that can be fixed for a couple of hundred bucks. However, it looks like the fix for the voltage drops is rather pricey - multiple thousands for the ExactPower or somesuch. Seeing as how I have about $15k invested in equipment (plasma, receiver, DVD, HD receiver, speakers, subs, etc.) I'm willing to spend the bucks if necessary but, you know, I could think of other things to spend that money on.

So the question I have is: is my equipment actually seriously at risk from the voltage drops?

Thanks . . .

After living with my Exact Power EP15A for a few weeks now I have to say that I am thoroughly satisfied with its performance. The bass response really tightned up and I noticed an increase in detail and contrast on my RPTV. I'm so pleased that I went ahead and ordered the SP15A to see what benefits I'll get from having clean and balanced power in my system.

Ken

Originally posted by Resident Djinn
Great thread - learned a lot (I think). We have blackouts periodically but fairly short lived - usually just a few seconds.

Equipment planned - Samsung HLP 56" DLP, D*TV HDTV Tivo DVR, plus audio equip, vcr, and DVD.

Djinn

I have basically the same setup and was also going to go with a Brick Wall and UPS. I went on the Brick Wall web site and saw a 2R Series, a BR Series (15A120VAC) and an RM Series (15A & 20 A 120 VAC). I think that the difference between the 2R Series and the BR Series is primarily the number of outlets, but what is the difference between the BR Series and the RM Series? Would the BR Series suffice for this setup? Also, which UPS model would be the best with this setup assuming I only wanted to get a few minutes of run time to ensure a proper shut down?

K_Thompson,
Glad to hear you're enjoying the EP. Your description of the benefits pretty much mirrors mine, and it also lets our system fly through brownouts that caused "hiccups" in the past. Not cheap but very efficient and good at what it does. I also like the fact that it barely gets warm, no matter how hard I'm pushing it. Do you think a LOTR:EE marathon would heat it up?

Please post your impressions of the SP once you've tried it. I've always wondered...

Doug

Valnar,
Interesting link, thanks.

The poster was wrong about the Exact Power in one respect. It does create a perfect sine wave. The EP website explains this very clearly, including their methodology and scope traces.

Here are the key differences between the PSA and the EP, AFAIK them:

The PSA units give you "multi-wave", i. e., control of power frequency. It's also likely that converting the incoming AC to DC and then regenerating AC provides good filtering of noise on the line. OTOH, the PSA design is inherently inefficient and thus costly to operate. Typically they regenerate about 50% of the incoming wattage as electricity. The other 50% is wasted as heat. Great units from what I've read if you can tolerate those issues.

The Exact Power does not regenerate new AC. It repairs any sine-wave irregularities and corrects for over-/under-voltage with a real-time boost/buck transformer. This makes it far more efficient than a PSA. Instead of 50% an EP is well above 95% efficient. Very little heat and easy on the electicity bill. You don't get multi-wave or the filtering of going through DC, though it does have filtered outlets to seperate digital from analog.

In the end it's a YMMV, as usual. They're both excellent units from everything I've read.

Since the Exact Power doesn't regenerate the signal, I wonder if it compares more to the PS Audio Power Director.

Robert

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
K_Thompson,
Glad to hear you're enjoying the EP. Your description of the benefits pretty much mirrors mine, and it also lets our system fly through brownouts that caused "hiccups" in the past. Not cheap but very efficient and good at what it does. I also like the fact that it barely gets warm, no matter how hard I'm pushing it. Do you think a LOTR:EE marathon would heat it up?

Please post your impressions of the SP once you've tried it. I've always wondered...

Doug

Doug,

Will do. The SP15A should be here in two or three weeks.

With my twin SVS PC-Ultra subs to drive, I'm sure a LOTR:EE marathon would cause the EP15A to get quite warm, especially at the volumes I like to listen at.:D

Ken

After reading the messages in this thread, I've decided I probably should invest in an UPS, despite not wanting to spend the money. In the case of a blackout, I plan on using the UPS to run the fan to cool the bulb in my upcoming Samsung HLP61. I don't plan on watching the TV during a power failure. I happened on the Tripplite OmniVS1000 UPS at Costco yesterday at an attractive price. http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2656

Will this UPS work fine? If not, would you please recommend a low cost alternative? Thanks!

Hi Guys,

My Surgender just arrived and when I went to hook it up, a question occurred to me. The first connection point for my coax is my VCR. I have inserted the Surgender between the VCR and the incoming coax (i.e., I screwed the Surgender right into the VCR). Now, were a surge to propagate through the coax and get stopped by the Surgender, do I really want that termination point to be so close (attached) to my VCR? Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it "upstream" a bit by inserting another piece of coax between the Surgender and the VCR?

Any and all responses would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Robert

rmcohen: I think you have it installed backwards. I think you need to turn it around and screw it directly into the wall.

Brownouts are not an issue in my area (at least since Enron and their buddies stopped dorking our state a few years back) but voltage drops are. When certain appliances kick off the lights dim. However, the AV equipment seems to continue on just fine.

Considering that it costs $2000 or more for the ExactPower to fix this the question I have is: is my equipment actually seriously at risk from these voltage drops?

Thanks for your reply bobby_t1. However, there really is no place to screw it into the wall. The cable TV provider just supplies a piece of coax that comes into the house and then I normally plug that directly into my VCR.

rmcohen:, oh i see. Maybe get a coax coupler and another piece of coax to place the surgender further away from your VCR. However, after thinking about it, I don' tthink it's necessary. If the surgender did let a bit of voltage through in a surge, then a foot of coax wouldn't/shouldn't make a big difference insulating your VCR. should be fine directly connected to your vcr.

That sounds reasonable. Thanks for the advice.

Okay, saw this deal at CompUSA:

APC 1500VA BackUPS+ Free APC 500VA = $179 After $99 rebate.

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?&ref=cj&pfp=cj&product_code=19499

Same price after rebate as a refurbished APC 1400 with the bonus of getting a free 500VA UPS for your computer or something else.

Also, accordign to previous post, this has true sine wave in both non-battery and battery mode.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
Okay, saw this deal at CompUSA:

APC 1500VA SmartUPS + Free APC 500VA = $179 After $99 rebate.

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?&ref=cj&pfp=cj&product_code=19499

Same price after rebate as a refurbished APC 1400 with the bonus of getting a free 500VA UPS for your computer or something else.

Also, accordign to previous post, this has true sine wave in both non-battery and battery mode. Thanks for the heads up! I was gonna get the SmartUPS 420 from TechDepot but for $30 more I could get that bundle! What a deal!

After reading many posts, I might go: wall -> to brickwall (PW8R15AUD) -> to UPS (1500VA UPS) to tv. Other components can go through brickwall. Does this sound right?

Just realized my deal isn't as good as it could be. It is for a BackUPS and not a SmartUPS. According to APC's website, this model doesn't have true sine wave even though compUSA's website says it has the voltage regulation.

Hi,

Anyone have any experience with power products that prevent audio sikes? For example, I hear "pops" from my speakers every so often that seem to be related to the powering on and off of appliances. To test this out I connected a fan with several speed settings to the same circuit as my stereo. I turned on the fan and selected different speed settings. Everytime I adjust the speed setting I can heard a slight switching noise from my speakers. I can remove the fan from the circuit, but I don't have the options of removing the other appliances. Any thoughts? I was looking at exactpower (EP15A, SP15A), BPT, Equi=Tech, or PS Audio. Anyone have any expereince with these products in preventing the issue I am experiencing?

Thanks for the advive.

gsysak,

Check out the Environmental Potentials website for heir EP2000 model.
www.ep2000.com
Your best bet is geting an isolated circuit for your system, this should minimize if not eliminate he problem.

Dear Audiophiles:

I have a high current power amplifier (200 W x 7 @ 8 Ohm) in my Home Theatre set-up and am concerned whether 1RM15DI from Zero Surge or SX1115R from SurgeX will introduce any current limiting issues, which can adversely effect the soundstage, or not? It was reported by many audiophiles that their soundstage was compressed while running similar power amplifiers through 15 A Brickwall surge protectors (PW8R15AUD, e.g.). I live in a block of flats and, unfortunately enough, cannot install a dedicated 20 A line.
Are there any advantages in using SurgeX over Zero Surge (or vice versa) surge suppressors in Home Theatre?
Please help me, I am totally and completely lost here!

Respectfully,
John

Well, after having lived with my new Exact Power SP15A for a week I have to say it's a keeper. The benefits of this unit are very subtle and may not be immediately noticeable especially if your system already has a low noise floor. The most obvious improvement came in the picture quality of my digital cable signal - which surprised me. That isn't to say that everyone will see the same improvements, it's just my experience. Is the unit worth the $900 MSRP? That's for everyone to decide for themselves. For me, the improvements justified the price.

Ken

edit:

I forgot to mention that for those who don't know, the Exact Power SP15A is a balanced power transformer and is a companion product to the Exact Power EP15A voltage regulator. It is recommended for use with the EP15A, but can be used separately. If it is used separately, make sure to order it with the EM/RF filters as it doesn't normally come with these filters installed.

additional edit:

I also forgot to mention the SP15A has four outlets with digital filters to prevent "digital noise" from passing between your digital components. There's a built in breaker in case of overload that can be reset (I've already had to use this once :eek: ) There's also a "slow blow" 15 amp fuse for additional protection (an extra fuse is included). One gripe I have about the unit is a very bright power light on the front panel. In a totally dark room, this thing will provide sufficient light to see by. Fortunately for me, my gear is not on the same wall as my screen, otherwise it would be very distracting.

GopStop, the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet might be a very viable choice as opposed to the Surgex, Brickwall, or Zerosurge. The have both 15 amp and 20 amp versions that might fit your bill.

One quick question...
I've been reading and re-reading this thread and have seen similar questions asked or eluded to, but I can't find a clear answer, so here's a shot-

Looking to hook up a 46" DLP TV, DirecTivo, and Sony ES receiver. Currently, however, the lights/etc. in my flat have a tendency to dim every now & then such as when the air or fridge come on. (Don't know if these are "brownouts" per se, but...)

Do the APC SmartUPS models include some sort of line conditioning to at least help address this? Or is the only really effective way around it the Exact Power EP15A (which is a bit rich for my budget)?

I'm looking at the SmartUPS 1000 on refurbups.com specifically. Will probably buy just for the lamp-cooling benefit, but I'd appreciate any input on the above question. Thanks!

Dear Audiophiles:

I need a reliable, clean power supply for my Home Theatre set-up, I have a high-current amplifier (200 W x 7), and am wondering if TrippLite Isolation Transformer Model # IS1800HG would be a good choice for my purposes.
If somebody has this unit, could you please provide me with the following:
1. Are the output receptacles isolated? What is the value of "crosstalk" between them?
2. Is this unit operating quietly?
3. Is this Model # IS1800HG magnetically shielded?

Ken,
is this TrippLite Isolation Transformer Model # IS1800HG similar to your Exact Power SP15A? EP is a very good unit, but it is too expensive for me, unfortunately enough…

tmilam,
could you please explain to me why you think “the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet might be a very viable choice as opposed to the Surgex, Brickwall, or Zerosurge”? I am a total newcomer in home electronics and do need all help I can get… Quite frankly, I was thinking of SurgeX very positively, but, perhaps, I am wrong after all.

Please give me the benefit of your advice!

Respectfully,
John

Originally posted by GopStop
Dear Audiophiles:

I need a reliable, clean power supply for my Home Theatre set-up, I have a high-current amplifier (200 W x 7), and am wondering if TrippLite Isolation Transformer Model # IS1800HG would be a good choice for my purposes.
If somebody has this unit, could you please provide me with the following:
1. Are the output receptacles isolated? What is the value of "crosstalk" between them?
2. Is this unit operating quietly?
3. Is this Model # IS1800HG magnetically shielded?

Ken,
is this TrippLite Isolation Transformer Model # IS1800HG similar to your Exact Power SP15A? EP is a very good unit, but it is too expensive for me, unfortunately enough…


Please give me the benefit of your advice!

Respectfully,
John

John,

From what I've seen on their website, the TrippLite model you are interested in does work on the same principles as the SP15A and provides surge protection as well - which the SP15A doesn't do (that's handled by the EP15A). The TrippLite has 6 outles to the EPs 8. Both units have hospital grade receptacles for a solid connection. I can't speak to the level of performance of the TrippLite as I have no experience with it. Performace will be a measure of the quality of the transformer built into the unit - which I am unfamiliar with. It looks to be a sturdy unit and will probably perfrom very well. TrippLite has a pretty good reputation for quality products.

Ken

Originally posted by faceman
One quick question...
I've been reading and re-reading this thread and have seen similar questions asked or eluded to, but I can't find a clear answer, so here's a shot-

Looking to hook up a 46" DLP TV, DirecTivo, and Sony ES receiver. Currently, however, the lights/etc. in my flat have a tendency to dim every now & then such as when the air or fridge come on. (Don't know if these are "brownouts" per se, but...)

Do the APC SmartUPS models include some sort of line conditioning to at least help address this? Or is the only really effective way around it the Exact Power EP15A (which is a bit rich for my budget)?

I'm looking at the SmartUPS 1000 on refurbups.com specifically. Will probably buy just for the lamp-cooling benefit, but I'd appreciate any input on the above question. Thanks!

I have an APC SmartUPS. They have model that vary across the spectrum, but most of the better ones can handle low and over voltage conditions very well without the inverter kicking in. Also, check to see what output waveform it puts out. A sinewave is of course the best. The cheaper ones put out stepped approximations or even worse, a trapazoid. Mine is about 850 VA and can handle my Samsung HLN507W, cable STB and 100 W stereo system for about 10 mins with no AC power.

the one i just got at wal-mart was 20 bucks RCA one, and it covers stuff up to 100,000 dollars, works for me, I don't need anything fancy w/ a deal like that.

have you ever known anyone to collect on those 100K policies? And how long will you wait to get the money to replace the stuff while you sit around with nothing?

have you ever known anyone to collect on those 100K policies? And how long will you wait to get the money to replace the stuff while you sit around with nothing?

I think a better question might be: Have you, HT-Obsession, ever known anyone who was unable to get their equipment replaced on one of 'those 100k policies'. How long did the person have to wait in your example?

Mind you, I've never had to use one of those policies, I just don't see how those companies can print stuff like that on the box and then try to weasel out of it when their product doesn't work. I would think that the FTC would go after them right away. I look at most of the products in this thread as more peace of mind than actually necessary, but that's just me. YMMV. I don't buy extended warranties either, so I guess I just life on the edge. :p

Square-D makes an excellent whole house surge suppressor that mount on the main panel. A wholehouse unit protects everything in the house. Virtually every appliance these days have some sort of chips inside.

There are other makes of whole house supressors as well - Home Depot carries them.

Need a licensed electrician to install one.

I have read most of all the posts in this thread, but have not seen a similiar question, so I hope this is not redundant...

I am wondering if I go from Wall --> Brickwall --> UPS --> Components, and the UPS puts out 800 Watts of power, if I will have enough power for all my components. As long as the Brickwall and the UPS dont chew up any of my 800 Watts, I should be all set. Do surge suppressers and UPS consume power themselves? Please advise.

Also, I am trying to determine if the 800 watt output from the TrippLite Model SU1000RTXL2U (rack mountable) will be enough to feed everthing. Is this as simple as adding up all the wattage consumption from the various components???

For instance:

(1) NAS Server 230 watts.
(2) Monitor 71 watts.
(3) Gigabit Switch 18 watts.
(4) Tapebackup 10 watts.
(5) Brickwall ??? watts.
(7) UPS ??? watts.
___________________

= ~ 329 watts total ???

So I should have plenty of headroom and no lack of power problems, right?

Sorry if my understanding of this is elementary, please advise.

Originally posted by beboram
Square-D makes an excellent whole house surge suppressor that mount on the main panel. A wholehouse unit protects everything in the house. Virtually every appliance these days have some sort of chips inside.

There are other makes of whole house supressors as well - Home Depot carries them.

Need a licensed electrician to install one.

what is the expected cost?

Originally posted by Geekpryde
Do Brickwalls and UPS consume power themselves?

Since the Brickwall comes before the UPS it doesn't really matter if it draws any power or not (if it does draw any power my guess is it would be negligible anyway). You are adding up the wattage to ensure that the UPS is designed to have enough battery power to supply all of the equipment you have plugged into it. The UPS has a certain Watt or VA rating which is for the connected equipment, this rating has already accounted for any power the UPS uses itself. If the power fails, the brickwall will be unpowered and anything you have plugged into the UPS will operate until either (a) the power comes back on, (b) you turn all of the equipment off or (c) the UPS battery runs down and stops supplying power to your equipment. Check the specs on the UPS to see how long it will operate the equipment, most give a time for a partial load i.e. 50% load, meaning if you had a 400 watt load on a UPS rated to 800 watts. My 420VA/260W APC Smart-UPS will only supply backup power for 13.5 minutes at half load (130 watts) or 5.5 minutes at full load (260 watts). I use the UPS to allow me to do a normal shutdown of my Samsung DLP rear projection TV after a power failure so the lamp doesn't overheat. A normal shutdown allows the cooling fan to run for several minutes after I turn the TV off. Hope that helps.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
what is the expected cost?

There is a company that makes a whole house surge protector called Environmental Potential. Check out the website, www.ep2000.com
If I remember correctly the price was less that $500.00.

Just want to thank all the people who have contributed to this thread. I just bought a Brickwall so my imaginary (soon to be real) TV won't get surged! :D

f16falcon, thank you for your reply. I also want to second LastBlade's "thank you" to everyone participating in this thread.

In case anyone wanted to know, I ended up purchasing the Brickwall rack mount PWRM15. I was very please with the length of the power cord, and the general build quality. Installing this into my Dell PowerVault series rack was easy as pie. This was purhcased from SELLCOM, with some difficulty. While I did end of with the product, the transaction was not as smooth as most of my online experiences, just a cautious FYI.

I also purchase the TrippLite SmartOnline rackmount UPS Model #: su1000rtxl2u. This is a beast!! Works great when combined with Windows UPS built in software, but the software that comes with these units is VERY nasty at interacting with operating systems. I ended up uninstalling it and using the ZERO-thrills power options under windows. If anyone want a detailed description on this software headache, I can post a more thorough reply.

Because the Brickwall and UPS are protecting a $10 grand PowerVault, it was important for me to test the UPS, by interrupting its power. It performs flawlessly, and gives plenty of time for shutting down a PC / TV. Unless you are consuming massive amounts of power, this entry level rackmount from Tripplite will last plenty of time, in case anyone was considering the beafier/more expensive versions.

Oh, and in case anyone wants massive amounts of storage in a hot-swappable RAID array, the Dell PowerVault series are awesome!

Thanks again,

Matt

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this thread - I think I learned more about surge protection, line conditioning, and power generation in the past 2 days than in the past 20 years! I just purchased the Sony 50" lcd rptv and while I don't have any high end HT devices yet I hope to add them in the future. With that in mind I've decided to with the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet which seems like a great deal at $299 retail and provides both no-fail surge protection and a decent amount of line conditioning. Am I right in my understanding of what this product does and what I need at this point?

Art_in_SJC,
I don't think the PSA UO has the best available surge protection. Check out the post linked in my signature.

Doug

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Art_in_SJC,
I don't think the PSA UO has the best available surge protection. Check out the post linked in my signature.

Doug

Hi Doug, thanks for the reply, and for your efforts in this thread! In fact the post linked in your signature is the post that I first read when researching this topic.:D I know that the PSA UO is not a SM surge protector but from what I've read in this thread, on their website and in reviews it is supposed to still provide superior surge protection as compared to a MOV type surge protector. PSA claim "... once connected, the new power that comes out of the Ultimate Outlet is quieter by up to 40 dB, and fully protected against surges, spikes ...". Would you caution me to take this with a grain of salt, or can I take them at their word?

Michael: got the Monster 3600 for a Christmas present and had it hooked up ever since. I noticed a difference in my fm music right away. Nice and clear. I have all my components plugged into it now including my cable, tv, receiver, cd, dvd, cable box. Just my 2 cents..

Hi Art_in_SJC,
I've heard nothing but good about the UO from people who use them, so I don't doubt the BQ, noise reduction capabilities, etc. From a surge protection viewpoint however, all I've ever seen is the vague statement you just quoted, "...fully protected against surges, spikes ...". What does that mean?

PSA offers no specifics about their surge protection technology and makes no claim to any superiority vs. MOV-based devices. There's simply no basis for you or me to make any judgement about a UO's surge protection capabilities. There's certainly no basis, other than wishful thinking, to conclude that a UO offers Series Mode quality surge protection. To provide that they'd have to pay a licensing fee to the patent holder (ZeroSurge). If they'd done so they'd be entitled to mention it in their product descriptions and advertising. They don't, so I assume they didn't.

It comes down to individual circumstances and attitudes. My circumstances include $30K in equipment, an unstable electrical grid and a somewhat lightning-prone location. Since the best available protection costs just 1% of my equipment value, I decided it would be imprudent not to have it. Obviously your circumstances and risk-tolerance will affect your decision.

Hope that helps, YMMV as usual,
Doug

Here's the reply I got from Paul McGowan at PS about the protection in the Power Director products:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. How does the Tranzorber and magnetic disconnects distinguish the
PD3.5 from "series mode" devices?

By series mode devices I assume you mean something like the BrickWall?
This series mode device really isn't a series mode device in the classic
sense, but I guess they can get away with saying. Actually, here's the
deal:

1. Series mode device. Essentially a series switch that opens
the line when there's a surge. Since no device has been found that
actually can do this quickly enough, they place a big ass choke in
series with the AC. This is designed to slow down any surges or spikes
enough to allow the switch to open. The good news is the switch
protects unconditionally once it's open. The bad news is there's a big,
slow high impedance choke in series with the AC and this makes the sound
restricted and a bit bleached. Not worth the trade off in my opinion.

2. Parallel mode. Regardless if we use Tranzorbers or MOV's,
our method is a parallel choke. You're familiar with these and how they
operate. So, the good news is they are sonically non-intrusive. The
bad news is that a big enough spike or surge comes through and it's
possible they'll fry. What we've done to work with that dilemma is to
fuse the Tranzorber - not in the AC line, but in series with the
Tranzorber. Now, for most surges the Tranzorber clamps and fixes and
saves. If the surge is too big, then the fuse blows and saves the
Tranzorber and disengages the relay in series with the line. The relay
opens and disconnects the AC so everything is safe until the fuse is
replaced. There is a gap in time between the fuse blowing and the relay
opening. During this time, we have a big gaggle of MOV's that clamp
long enough to allow the relay to open. Pretty bulletproof method and
the good news it's non-intrusive sonically.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kal

Hi Kal,

Thanks for passing on that explanation from Paul McGowan. Great stuff, and good to learn the architecture he uses.

The early Brickwalls were indeed reported to limit current/dynamics, as he mentioned. I haven't heard anyone complain of that with Brickwall's newer "AUD" models or with the 20 amp capable Surgexes for example. AFAIK of course. I'm certainly not going to debate electrical circuitry with Mr. McGowan! If you or he think I should edit anything in my Surge Protection post please let me know.

Doug

P.S. I trust (hope!) the tornado warning the other day wasn't too close to you.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
The early Brickwalls were indeed reported to limit current/dynamics, as he mentioned. I haven't heard anyone complain of that with Brickwall's newer "AUD" models or with the 20 amp capable Surgexes for example. AFAIK of course. I'm certainly not going to debate electrical circuitry with Mr. McGowan!

P.S. I trust (hope!) the tornado warning the other day wasn't too close to you.

They were pretty close but with the Brickwall AUD in place, the only electrical evidence was (1) periodic signal outages from the cable co. and (2) annoying tornado notices on screen. :)

Kal

Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
Here's the reply I got from Paul McGowan at PS about the protection in the Power Director products:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. How does the Tranzorber and magnetic disconnects distinguish the
PD3.5 from "series mode" devices?


Hi Kal, thanks for the great info! Reading through the product description for the UO doesn't indicate any sort of disconnect or MOV so I'm not sure if what they've said for the PD also applies to the UO. In fact one of my local area stores that carry PSA products indicated they did not think a UO would be a good surge protector device, and in fact referred me to SurgeX (which they did not carry!).

However, I've found a local dealer offering a tremendous discount on the PD 3.5 (if anyone's interested, PM me for details - San Jose, CA area) that I can't pass up even though it's on the high side of my budget, so problem solved.

Doug, I envy your system! My existing system value in its entirety is 1% of yours.:D However I'm adding a KF-50WE610 and plan on upgrading my audio in the future so I decided that a good surge protection method was in order.

Another response from Paul:

2. Since the UO can handle all the current that the wall outlet will
feed it, can I assume the major advantages of the PD 3.5 are the inter-UO
isolation and the protection features?

Yup. The 3.5 is simply three of these and offers full protection. The
advantage being isolation as you suggest.

Kal

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021125l.gif

ROFL! I love those guys, I've been a regular reader since their second year.:D

Is the quality of the sine wave output from a UPS a significant issue?

I'm a noob on these matters - although I have read through many posts on this site and learned a lot (too much perhaps?).

My thinking is the TV only would run off the UPS's batteries when there are power failures or brownouts. If the TV was on at the time I will naturally be shutting it off ASAP. With the exception of these few minutes on hopefully rare occasions, the TV would only draw power for standby mode from the UPS's batteries during any other outages. So given this usage do I really need a "pure sine wave" output UPS?

Another question is the MOV protection in a UPS. When it fails will the UPS stop working or stop protecting?

I'd love to buy a brickwall and a APC Smart-UPS 700 combo but the finances are a bit drained after buying the Sony KF50WE620!

At the moment I am using an APC surge protector (better than nothing!).

Thanks in advance for any guidance!

Originally posted by nomorefords
Is the quality of the sine wave output from a UPS a significant issue?
So given this usage do I really need a "pure sine wave" output UPS?


This is a popular question, generally speaking any UPS is better than no UPS, and a sine wave UPS is better than a non-sine wave UPS.
While you probably don't really need a sine-wave UPS, the general consensus is that it's better. Whether it's worth the extra $$ is a question you'll have to answer for yourself.



Another question is the MOV protection in a UPS. When it fails will the UPS stop working or stop protecting?
It will stop protecting, but the UPS will continue to function as normal otherwise.

I'd love to buy a brickwall and a APC Smart-UPS 700 combo but the finances are a bit drained after buying the Sony KF50WE620!

At the moment I am using an APC surge protector (better than nothing!).


I would suggest first get the Brickwall, then upgrade the UPS at a later time as funds allow.

Whether you should get a good surge protector or a UPS first depends on the probability of surges vs. blackouts in your location and the estimated damage should either event hit your system.

On the whole, I'd guess over-voltage surges are more likely to do serious damage to HT/stereo equipment than sudden power losses. A spike can fry things in a nanosecond. A power loss in many cases means nothing more than some additional thermal stress because a cooling fan stops spinning. Even if you're in a lightning-free area the AC coming from your wall may not be voltage stable, and when the power comes back on after an outage a voltage surge is almost inevitable.

In most locations, with most HT equipment, I'd be more comfortable living without a UPS than without a surge protector. (In fact, I do!) My computer has a UPS of course, I need power for data protection, but not my stereo.

YMMV of course, its a matter of risk assessment.

Thanks for the feedback.

Lightning isn't a frequent problem around here but unexpected power failures and occasional brownouts seem to occur about a dozen times a year (well last year anyway). I hadn't really thought about the surge after service is restored.

I'm having a bit of trouble finding the brickwall where I live in Canada so would have to order form US with possible duty fees in addition to shipping. Still considering it despite the cost.

I have never lost any equipment due to power surges (nor know of anyone who has) so it seems to be a low risk. The loss of power (and brownouts) is something that will happen so this seems like a more immediate problem requiring a solution.

BTW: APC responded to my similar question indicting the following:
" ...I would like to inform you that our Back-UPS units output step-approximated sine wave when running on battery power. This waveshape, while ideal for computer-type equipment, is not particularly compatible with most motor loads such as fan. The result may be that motor runs very slowly, erratically, or not at all when the UPS is on battery. ...For your TV equipment, you would need to opt for a Smart-UPS unit."

I'm not so sure I agree with their concern because I strongly suspect the fan used to cool the lamp runs off DC and that their comments pertain more to AC motors. I am definately way out of my league on this subject so perhaps they are correct. In any event it is just one more arguement to go with something like a APC Smart-UPS 700 at some point.

Does any body know where you can order a brickwall in Canada?